by JanieM
bobbyp in the electric cars thread:
For some strange reason, I found myself re-reading some of this thread.
Hint hint?
Here’s an open thread, with a prompt for a possible topic very much off the top of my head:
A bunch of candidates have already declared that they’re running to replace Paul LePage as governor of Maine next year. So far there are seven Democrats, one officially declared Republican (with Susan Collins generating rumors but making nothing official so far), a Libertarian, and a couple of Greens.
Off the top of my head, the big Democratic field worries me. Or rather, I’m glad to see a big field, but I wish there was a way to winnow it down in stages instead of all at once. I would like to see two or three strong contenders emerge and battle it out, and I suppose that could happen if some of the lesser lights drop out well before the primary. But history doesn’t make me optimistic in that regard; LePage won both his terms running against Democrats (neither the strongest of candidates IMHO) and an independent with a big ego who wouldn’t get out of the way no matter how low his poll numbers went.
Point being: I think a big field and only one vote to choose among them makes it less likely that the “best” candidate (by whatever definition) will emerge.
I’m interested more in what people think about the general proposition than in assessments of Maine’s situation in particular.
But it’s an open thread, so … as you like it.
P.S. Relevant to picking the “best” candidate out of a wide field: Maine voters approved ranked-choice voting at referendum last fall, but parts of that law have been declared unconstitutional in a the state supreme court advisory opinion (Maine constitution, not federal). As far as I know the whole thing is now up in the air; the first implementation, if the law stays in place, would be the party primaries in June 2018.
P.S. Relevant to picking the “best” candidate out of a wide field: Maine voters approved ranked-choice voting at referendum last fall, but parts of that law have been declared unconstitutional in a the state supreme court advisory opinion (Maine constitution, not federal). As far as I know the whole thing is now up in the air; the first implementation, if the law stays in place, would be the party primaries in June 2018.
LePage won both his terms running against Democrats (neither the strongest of candidates IMHO) and an independent with a big ego who wouldn’t get out of the way no matter how low his poll numbers went.
I suppose it would be too much to hope that Maine voters would remember this outcome the next time. And engage in “tactical voting” if the candidate that they would most prefer has no realistic hope.
LePage won both his terms running against Democrats (neither the strongest of candidates IMHO) and an independent with a big ego who wouldn’t get out of the way no matter how low his poll numbers went.
I suppose it would be too much to hope that Maine voters would remember this outcome the next time. And engage in “tactical voting” if the candidate that they would most prefer has no realistic hope.
wj, sad to say, I’m pretty sure that’s too much to hope, since a lot of people didn’t seem to remember it between 2010 and 2014.
2010
2014
LePage is fond of saying that he was Trump before Trump was Trump, and that’s probably true in some ways, including some ways he wouldn’t be flattered by. But I include on the list the fact that he won almost half the vote in 2014; a lot of people still think he’s great.
He campaigned in 2014 partly on the idea that he had calmed down. I heard him say on the radio, just before the election, something like this: “Look, what I want people to realize is, even a Frenchman can learn to calm down.”
Just one of his many ethnic/race-based utterances. And — it was all fake; he calmed down just long enough to win again, then reverted to his standard idiocies.
wj, sad to say, I’m pretty sure that’s too much to hope, since a lot of people didn’t seem to remember it between 2010 and 2014.
2010
2014
LePage is fond of saying that he was Trump before Trump was Trump, and that’s probably true in some ways, including some ways he wouldn’t be flattered by. But I include on the list the fact that he won almost half the vote in 2014; a lot of people still think he’s great.
He campaigned in 2014 partly on the idea that he had calmed down. I heard him say on the radio, just before the election, something like this: “Look, what I want people to realize is, even a Frenchman can learn to calm down.”
Just one of his many ethnic/race-based utterances. And — it was all fake; he calmed down just long enough to win again, then reverted to his standard idiocies.
My favourite Fred Astaire movie ever !
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0045537/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2
The most absurd script you can imagine, but in a good way, and the dance sequence with the great Cyd Charisse is utterly sublime.
My favourite Fred Astaire movie ever !
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0045537/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2
The most absurd script you can imagine, but in a good way, and the dance sequence with the great Cyd Charisse is utterly sublime.
Oh, hell… Collins declares whenever she wants and rolls on to a landslide. This is her swan song, classical moderate Republican and no longer has to commute back and forth to DC.
Granted, I’m a westerner looking at it from outside.
Oh, hell… Collins declares whenever she wants and rolls on to a landslide. This is her swan song, classical moderate Republican and no longer has to commute back and forth to DC.
Granted, I’m a westerner looking at it from outside.
Echoing back to the previous thread, one book I have never re-read is Faulkner’s The Sound and the Fury, which we can safely bet takes its title from Macbeth’s soliloquy:
The reason I bring this up is that Faulkner scholar and Macbeth wannabe He, Trump recently stirred a memory of “sound and fury” in my disordered mind.
Let us be grateful that Trump-before-Trump Governor Paul LePage never (to my knowledge) went as far as once-governor of New Hampshire Meldrim Thompson, who famously suggested that the NH National Guard had every right to include nukes in its arsenal.
Life has been a tale told by an idiot for a long time now.
–TP
Echoing back to the previous thread, one book I have never re-read is Faulkner’s The Sound and the Fury, which we can safely bet takes its title from Macbeth’s soliloquy:
The reason I bring this up is that Faulkner scholar and Macbeth wannabe He, Trump recently stirred a memory of “sound and fury” in my disordered mind.
Let us be grateful that Trump-before-Trump Governor Paul LePage never (to my knowledge) went as far as once-governor of New Hampshire Meldrim Thompson, who famously suggested that the NH National Guard had every right to include nukes in its arsenal.
Life has been a tale told by an idiot for a long time now.
–TP
Michael Cain — you’re probably right, depressing as that is. But I had better not say anything more about Maine politics.
Tony P. — I read The Sound and the Fury as a young person; it seems to be the Faulkner that gets onto school lists. Or it was in those days, anyhow. I didn’t like it much, though there were 3 or 4 other Faulkners that I loved and reread more than once, especially Go Down, Moses.
You wrote in the other thread: I was born in the wrong country, and immigrated to another.
I chuckled at that. I’m not sure whether there was a right country for me to be born in, but for most of my life I was in love with — go figure — Ireland, and English literature (not to be confused with literature in English). On my one trip to London I felt like…it’s hard to say what I felt light. Because of Shaw’s letters, and Dickens, and who knows what else, I “know” London far better than I know any American city except Boston. And yet of course I don’t really know it at all. If I felt more financially secure as I near retirement, I’d go spend a few months there before I get too old for such adventures. And then a few months in Ireland. Or v.v.
A girl can dream.
(Then again, I tried twice in my life to go from one of those islands to the other and was thwarted both times; I think there’s some mystical barrier between them.)
Michael Cain — you’re probably right, depressing as that is. But I had better not say anything more about Maine politics.
Tony P. — I read The Sound and the Fury as a young person; it seems to be the Faulkner that gets onto school lists. Or it was in those days, anyhow. I didn’t like it much, though there were 3 or 4 other Faulkners that I loved and reread more than once, especially Go Down, Moses.
You wrote in the other thread: I was born in the wrong country, and immigrated to another.
I chuckled at that. I’m not sure whether there was a right country for me to be born in, but for most of my life I was in love with — go figure — Ireland, and English literature (not to be confused with literature in English). On my one trip to London I felt like…it’s hard to say what I felt light. Because of Shaw’s letters, and Dickens, and who knows what else, I “know” London far better than I know any American city except Boston. And yet of course I don’t really know it at all. If I felt more financially secure as I near retirement, I’d go spend a few months there before I get too old for such adventures. And then a few months in Ireland. Or v.v.
A girl can dream.
(Then again, I tried twice in my life to go from one of those islands to the other and was thwarted both times; I think there’s some mystical barrier between them.)
Janie.
I have been to London exactly once. In June 1994 it must have been. It was a business trip; the only foreign business trip I ever had to a country that had not been a WW2 Axis Power. Having a Saturday to myself, I did some sightseeing. Not for me the Tower of London, Buckingham Palace, or London Bridge. No, I sought out the places I “knew” from middle-brow literature.
I went to the Old Bailey and the Inns of Court, to check out Horace Rumpole’s stomping grounds. Selfies were not a thing back then, or I’d have one of myself standing in the doorway of No. 3, Equity Court and pointing to the plaque with John Mortimer’s name (among others) on it.
Then I made my way to Cambridge Circus where George Smiley’s MI6 had its headquarters. I tried to identify the building that John LeCarre might have been describing in Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy but I doubted even then that I succeeded.
I had not made Bertie Wooster’s acquaintance at the time, but I know I walked past his front door at one point.
I was spared awareness of the ludicrous Da Vinci Code until a decade later, but when I did read it (it was a gift; I was in bed with a cold; so sue me) I remembered having walked around the Temple Church, just across the way from Rumpole’s chambers.
Like you, I’d like to spend some time in London again, when I know I’ll have the money to live on after I get back.
–TP
Janie.
I have been to London exactly once. In June 1994 it must have been. It was a business trip; the only foreign business trip I ever had to a country that had not been a WW2 Axis Power. Having a Saturday to myself, I did some sightseeing. Not for me the Tower of London, Buckingham Palace, or London Bridge. No, I sought out the places I “knew” from middle-brow literature.
I went to the Old Bailey and the Inns of Court, to check out Horace Rumpole’s stomping grounds. Selfies were not a thing back then, or I’d have one of myself standing in the doorway of No. 3, Equity Court and pointing to the plaque with John Mortimer’s name (among others) on it.
Then I made my way to Cambridge Circus where George Smiley’s MI6 had its headquarters. I tried to identify the building that John LeCarre might have been describing in Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy but I doubted even then that I succeeded.
I had not made Bertie Wooster’s acquaintance at the time, but I know I walked past his front door at one point.
I was spared awareness of the ludicrous Da Vinci Code until a decade later, but when I did read it (it was a gift; I was in bed with a cold; so sue me) I remembered having walked around the Temple Church, just across the way from Rumpole’s chambers.
Like you, I’d like to spend some time in London again, when I know I’ll have the money to live on after I get back.
–TP
apropos:
http://www.oregonlive.com/trending/2017/04/newport_police_issue_warning_t.html
apropos:
http://www.oregonlive.com/trending/2017/04/newport_police_issue_warning_t.html
The only thing that can protect you from a Bad Cat with a Gun is a Good Cat with a Gun, amirite?
The only thing that can protect you from a Bad Cat with a Gun is a Good Cat with a Gun, amirite?
history doesn’t make me optimistic in that regard
what I’m wondering about lately is if the (D)’s are going to be able to get their sh*t together enough to flip the House in ’18.
it should really be a lay-up, but between institutional impediments (see also – gerrymandering and vote suppression) and their own general inability to get out of their own way, I’m not sure how it’s going to play out.
this is a weird country.
history doesn’t make me optimistic in that regard
what I’m wondering about lately is if the (D)’s are going to be able to get their sh*t together enough to flip the House in ’18.
it should really be a lay-up, but between institutional impediments (see also – gerrymandering and vote suppression) and their own general inability to get out of their own way, I’m not sure how it’s going to play out.
this is a weird country.
The wife and I did a week in London in 1999. As cheesy as it may sound, we did the Big Bus Tour on our first full day there on the advice of a friend who suggested it as a form of orientation. Thereafter, it was a lot of waking, tube rides, and the occasional taxi. We only used the city bus once. We couldn’t make heads nor tails of the routes and schedules.
Ours was a sightseeing and pub-crawling trip, with our being still a bit on the rammy side for 30-year-olds.
Some of the cooler things we did were seeing Amadeus at the Old Vic with Michael Sheen playing Mozart, taking the Jack the Ripper walking tour of the East End (which is a lot like North Philly), and going to the Oxford and Cambridge Boat Race in Putney. (We missed the race, itself, but enjoyed the especially rowdy pub scene that followed.)
I would move to London in a heartbeat (assuming I could make enough money to afford it), though my impression is colored by the unusually nice weather they were having while we were there. It was a record heat wave for the week of Easter, with daytime temperatures mostly in the 70s (Fahrenheit, of course) and very little rain. I loved it. It was everything I like about big cities, but with far less of the downsides that you find in American cities.
The wife and I did a week in London in 1999. As cheesy as it may sound, we did the Big Bus Tour on our first full day there on the advice of a friend who suggested it as a form of orientation. Thereafter, it was a lot of waking, tube rides, and the occasional taxi. We only used the city bus once. We couldn’t make heads nor tails of the routes and schedules.
Ours was a sightseeing and pub-crawling trip, with our being still a bit on the rammy side for 30-year-olds.
Some of the cooler things we did were seeing Amadeus at the Old Vic with Michael Sheen playing Mozart, taking the Jack the Ripper walking tour of the East End (which is a lot like North Philly), and going to the Oxford and Cambridge Boat Race in Putney. (We missed the race, itself, but enjoyed the especially rowdy pub scene that followed.)
I would move to London in a heartbeat (assuming I could make enough money to afford it), though my impression is colored by the unusually nice weather they were having while we were there. It was a record heat wave for the week of Easter, with daytime temperatures mostly in the 70s (Fahrenheit, of course) and very little rain. I loved it. It was everything I like about big cities, but with far less of the downsides that you find in American cities.
Ours was a sightseeing and pub-crawling trip, with our being still a bit on the rammy side for 30-year-olds.
What does rammy mean? The internet tells me it pertains to a quarrel or brawl, but this seems rather unlikely for you and your missus, hsh. Speaking of the Old Vic, there is a play on there which has had wonderful reviews, which I am going to try to see when I’m back in the smoke next week and the next. It’s called Girl From The North Country, but what really appeals is that apparently the music of Bob Dylan is woven into it in a masterly way. If I see it I will report back, on the offchance it heads anywhere some of you might see it.
https://www.oldvictheatre.com/whats-on/2017/girl-north-country-3
Ours was a sightseeing and pub-crawling trip, with our being still a bit on the rammy side for 30-year-olds.
What does rammy mean? The internet tells me it pertains to a quarrel or brawl, but this seems rather unlikely for you and your missus, hsh. Speaking of the Old Vic, there is a play on there which has had wonderful reviews, which I am going to try to see when I’m back in the smoke next week and the next. It’s called Girl From The North Country, but what really appeals is that apparently the music of Bob Dylan is woven into it in a masterly way. If I see it I will report back, on the offchance it heads anywhere some of you might see it.
https://www.oldvictheatre.com/whats-on/2017/girl-north-country-3
What does rammy mean?
Rambunctious, more or less – almost like college kids, but with jobs and money, perhaps a bit less stupid. (This was before we had kids of our own, so we didn’t have parental responsibility to temper us.)
What does rammy mean?
Rambunctious, more or less – almost like college kids, but with jobs and money, perhaps a bit less stupid. (This was before we had kids of our own, so we didn’t have parental responsibility to temper us.)
what I’m wondering about lately is if the (D)’s are going to be able to get their sh*t together enough to flip the House in ’18.
What I’m wondering is if they get themselves together by 2020 to correct their 2010 mistake and take some state legislatures. Or at least one house. (Although some governorships in 2018 wouldn’t hurt.)
Because otherwise the gerrymandering is just going to keep being a major impediment to getting a House which reflects anything close to the national popular vote.
what I’m wondering about lately is if the (D)’s are going to be able to get their sh*t together enough to flip the House in ’18.
What I’m wondering is if they get themselves together by 2020 to correct their 2010 mistake and take some state legislatures. Or at least one house. (Although some governorships in 2018 wouldn’t hurt.)
Because otherwise the gerrymandering is just going to keep being a major impediment to getting a House which reflects anything close to the national popular vote.
Ours was a sightseeing and pub-crawling trip
I drink very infrequently. And I don’t think I’ve ever gone into an actual bar in my life — certainly not one outside a hotel where I was attending a conference.
So I’ve wondered for years, what do non-drinkers in the UK do if they don’t meet at their local? I’m sure there are other venues. But the pub is the only one which gets mentioned on this side of the pond. Maybe the UK folks here can enlighten me.
Ours was a sightseeing and pub-crawling trip
I drink very infrequently. And I don’t think I’ve ever gone into an actual bar in my life — certainly not one outside a hotel where I was attending a conference.
So I’ve wondered for years, what do non-drinkers in the UK do if they don’t meet at their local? I’m sure there are other venues. But the pub is the only one which gets mentioned on this side of the pond. Maybe the UK folks here can enlighten me.
Ha, excellent question wj. Outside London and other cities, rural pubs are closing at an unprecedented rate. The pub, as you rightly remark, was a major social hub and meeting place, but the increased availability of cheap booze in e.g. supermarkets (from deregulation of admittedly archaic rules about when and where you could buy alcohol) has led to a great deal of drinking at home. Non-smoking in public places didn’t help – the pubs of yesteryear were dens of smoke and beer-soaked carpet. But no longer. Millenials of my acquaintance, when “going out on the lash” (out to pull ((find attactive sexual partners)) and get drunk) now do what they call the “pre-lash” at home, establishing a certain level of “merriness” before going out and needing only minor topping up. Pubs in London have had to adapt, and offer more than in the old days, so often decent food, live music etc. etc. England is changing a lot, in some ways for the better, in many ways for the worse. If Brexit goes ahead, it feels as if it will be mostly for the worse.
Ha, excellent question wj. Outside London and other cities, rural pubs are closing at an unprecedented rate. The pub, as you rightly remark, was a major social hub and meeting place, but the increased availability of cheap booze in e.g. supermarkets (from deregulation of admittedly archaic rules about when and where you could buy alcohol) has led to a great deal of drinking at home. Non-smoking in public places didn’t help – the pubs of yesteryear were dens of smoke and beer-soaked carpet. But no longer. Millenials of my acquaintance, when “going out on the lash” (out to pull ((find attactive sexual partners)) and get drunk) now do what they call the “pre-lash” at home, establishing a certain level of “merriness” before going out and needing only minor topping up. Pubs in London have had to adapt, and offer more than in the old days, so often decent food, live music etc. etc. England is changing a lot, in some ways for the better, in many ways for the worse. If Brexit goes ahead, it feels as if it will be mostly for the worse.
But to answer your question, more and more people of a certain age no longer drink, so it has become perfectly respectable amongst any but the young to go out, to pubs or elsewhere, and drink soft drinks.
But to answer your question, more and more people of a certain age no longer drink, so it has become perfectly respectable amongst any but the young to go out, to pubs or elsewhere, and drink soft drinks.
wrs @ 11:56, and this is what worries me about the large field of Democrats running for governor in Maine. (Eight, not, as I said in the OP, seven.)
I think it’s great that a lot of people are getting involved and a lot of people are running. My concern is that there will just be an on-going fragmentation, not a gradual winnowing toward the strongest candidates.
My favorite Maine musicians, Schooner Fare, used to have a standing joke in their shows: “We don’t belong to an organized political party. [pause] We’re Democrats.”
Even signs of fragmentation on the right don’t cheer me up, given gerrymandering and other shenanigans. Guess we’ll see.
wrs @ 11:56, and this is what worries me about the large field of Democrats running for governor in Maine. (Eight, not, as I said in the OP, seven.)
I think it’s great that a lot of people are getting involved and a lot of people are running. My concern is that there will just be an on-going fragmentation, not a gradual winnowing toward the strongest candidates.
My favorite Maine musicians, Schooner Fare, used to have a standing joke in their shows: “We don’t belong to an organized political party. [pause] We’re Democrats.”
Even signs of fragmentation on the right don’t cheer me up, given gerrymandering and other shenanigans. Guess we’ll see.
One of my pilgrimages in London was to the British Museum. In his younger years Shaw spent a lot of time in the British Museum reading room, but alas, it was closed for renovations when I was there. I did enjoy the museum, though.
My daughter and I had a great time walking all over the place — she had some items on *her* list too, and I almost didn’t care where we went as long as it was London.
To hsh’s point about good weather — we went in July, a last-minute trip, and spent two weeks all told in London, York, and Edinburgh. The weather was gorgeous the whole time — I’m sure (as with my hiking stints on the Olympic coast in Washington) giving me a completely skewed idea of what it might like to be there all the time.
Other than London as an amorphous whole, the most moving thing for me on that trip was York Minster. I walked in and started crying…basically didn’t stop until I walked back out again, although I suppressed it pretty well after a while.
Westminster Abbey didn’t affect me that way in the least, though I did enjoy it. We walked across the Millennium Bridge, saw the outside of St. Paul’s (and the memorial to firefighters… special to me since my dad was one), a bit of Fleet Street, the National Portrait Gallery, the changing of the guard at Buckingham Palace, Harrods (on my daughter’s list 🙂 — it was a lot for just a few days!
One of my pilgrimages in London was to the British Museum. In his younger years Shaw spent a lot of time in the British Museum reading room, but alas, it was closed for renovations when I was there. I did enjoy the museum, though.
My daughter and I had a great time walking all over the place — she had some items on *her* list too, and I almost didn’t care where we went as long as it was London.
To hsh’s point about good weather — we went in July, a last-minute trip, and spent two weeks all told in London, York, and Edinburgh. The weather was gorgeous the whole time — I’m sure (as with my hiking stints on the Olympic coast in Washington) giving me a completely skewed idea of what it might like to be there all the time.
Other than London as an amorphous whole, the most moving thing for me on that trip was York Minster. I walked in and started crying…basically didn’t stop until I walked back out again, although I suppressed it pretty well after a while.
Westminster Abbey didn’t affect me that way in the least, though I did enjoy it. We walked across the Millennium Bridge, saw the outside of St. Paul’s (and the memorial to firefighters… special to me since my dad was one), a bit of Fleet Street, the National Portrait Gallery, the changing of the guard at Buckingham Palace, Harrods (on my daughter’s list 🙂 — it was a lot for just a few days!
On the topic of uncharacteristic stuff in England (e.g. a long stretch of gorgeous sunny weather) — and kind of opposite — we had a train break down on the way back from Edinburgh to London. I also had a train break down when I went to Brussels and traveled to Amsterdam a few months later. So the notion of Europe’s fantastic train service got a little sullied for me.
On the topic of uncharacteristic stuff in England (e.g. a long stretch of gorgeous sunny weather) — and kind of opposite — we had a train break down on the way back from Edinburgh to London. I also had a train break down when I went to Brussels and traveled to Amsterdam a few months later. So the notion of Europe’s fantastic train service got a little sullied for me.
what do non-drinkers in the UK do if they don’t meet at their local?…
Coffee.
There are probably more coffee shops than pubs now.
I certainly drink more coffee than beer…
fantastic train service…
In the UK ??
what do non-drinkers in the UK do if they don’t meet at their local?…
Coffee.
There are probably more coffee shops than pubs now.
I certainly drink more coffee than beer…
fantastic train service…
In the UK ??
Harrods (on my daughter’s list 🙂
We went there, too. It was on my wife’s list. I enjoyed it, though. As department stores go, it was sort of … I hate use “amazing,” but I don’t feel like thinking of another word right now … so, amazing (for a store). The thing that stands out most in my memory is the food court – so much beautiful food.
Harrods (on my daughter’s list 🙂
We went there, too. It was on my wife’s list. I enjoyed it, though. As department stores go, it was sort of … I hate use “amazing,” but I don’t feel like thinking of another word right now … so, amazing (for a store). The thing that stands out most in my memory is the food court – so much beautiful food.
Nigel — In the UK ?? — well, my impressions may be out of date. 😉
But then I’m moved to add: at least you have train service. We only pay lip service to it in the US.
hsh — yes, the food is what I remember at Harrod’s too! And the line of limos and town cars outside, with the drivers waiting to take their charges home. Or wherever.
Nigel — In the UK ?? — well, my impressions may be out of date. 😉
But then I’m moved to add: at least you have train service. We only pay lip service to it in the US.
hsh — yes, the food is what I remember at Harrod’s too! And the line of limos and town cars outside, with the drivers waiting to take their charges home. Or wherever.
Because otherwise the gerrymandering is just going to keep being a major impediment to getting a House which reflects anything close to the national popular vote.
Indeed, but there are some real institutional constraints that have more effect: (1.) “First past the post” representation; (2.) The tendency of D’s to cluster in urban areas so they elect Congresscritters 80-20 and the R’s win 55-45 in the burbs or 60-40 in rural areas.(3.) the deeply undemocratic makeup of the Senate.
If the economy does not tank, and we don’t get embroiled in a stupid war, a D “wave” election in ’18 would not seem to be in the cards, Trump’s poll numbers notwithstanding.
You get civil wars when the political divisions harden and neither side can ‘win’ by other means.
Take it from there.
Regards,
Because otherwise the gerrymandering is just going to keep being a major impediment to getting a House which reflects anything close to the national popular vote.
Indeed, but there are some real institutional constraints that have more effect: (1.) “First past the post” representation; (2.) The tendency of D’s to cluster in urban areas so they elect Congresscritters 80-20 and the R’s win 55-45 in the burbs or 60-40 in rural areas.(3.) the deeply undemocratic makeup of the Senate.
If the economy does not tank, and we don’t get embroiled in a stupid war, a D “wave” election in ’18 would not seem to be in the cards, Trump’s poll numbers notwithstanding.
You get civil wars when the political divisions harden and neither side can ‘win’ by other means.
Take it from there.
Regards,
You get civil wars when the political divisions harden and neither side can ‘win’ by other means.
but first, fashion wars!
http://www.avclub.com/article/breitbart-editor-threatens-right-wing-fashion-mag–259344
You get civil wars when the political divisions harden and neither side can ‘win’ by other means.
but first, fashion wars!
http://www.avclub.com/article/breitbart-editor-threatens-right-wing-fashion-mag–259344
I was kidding, a bit… and maybe comparing us with Europe rather than the US.
I was kidding, a bit… and maybe comparing us with Europe rather than the US.
About pubs: when I first went to Ireland, in 1979, I traveled around the country alone for a couple of weeks by bus, train, and thumb. I was amazed to find all generations in the pub in the evening; back home in the USA, my generation wouldn’t have been caught dead in the same social venue as our parents.
But when I thought it over I had to realize:
1) I’m not much of a drinker and didn’t go to bars all that much at home, so didn’t have much basis for the comparison; and
2) the places I was going to in Ireland were in villages and rural areas where there weren’t any other options — the pub was it.
About pubs: when I first went to Ireland, in 1979, I traveled around the country alone for a couple of weeks by bus, train, and thumb. I was amazed to find all generations in the pub in the evening; back home in the USA, my generation wouldn’t have been caught dead in the same social venue as our parents.
But when I thought it over I had to realize:
1) I’m not much of a drinker and didn’t go to bars all that much at home, so didn’t have much basis for the comparison; and
2) the places I was going to in Ireland were in villages and rural areas where there weren’t any other options — the pub was it.
And the Irish are a whole other story –
they are pretty much nothing like the English (and on the whole, I mean that as a compliment). Apart from anything else, they drink a whole lot more.
And the Irish are a whole other story –
they are pretty much nothing like the English (and on the whole, I mean that as a compliment). Apart from anything else, they drink a whole lot more.
they are pretty much nothing like the English
This is what I meant upthread when I postulated a mystical barrier… 😉
they are pretty much nothing like the English
This is what I meant upthread when I postulated a mystical barrier… 😉
Oh yes, I had forgotten that – dinner and wine intervened!
Oh yes, I had forgotten that – dinner and wine intervened!
OT – wonder if sapient would be able / willing to comment on the white nationalist rally in C’ville.
the past is never dead. it’s not even past.
OT – wonder if sapient would be able / willing to comment on the white nationalist rally in C’ville.
the past is never dead. it’s not even past.
Since Charlottesville got the “Nuremberg torchlit Nazi rally”, I guess it’ll be slated for the war-crimes trials in a few years.
Plus hangings. Short drop, long dangle. It’s traditional!
Since Charlottesville got the “Nuremberg torchlit Nazi rally”, I guess it’ll be slated for the war-crimes trials in a few years.
Plus hangings. Short drop, long dangle. It’s traditional!
To people who condemn “violence” I say:
Imagine that ISIS supporters with black flags and torches and openly carrying scimitars staged a rally on Boston Common. Imagine that a coalition of atheist and Unitarian counter-protesters confronted them. Suppose “violence” ensued.
Would you confine your reaction to pious condemnations of “violence”? Would you indulge your both-sides fetish with ritual whining about “coming together”?
Or would you act like a decent human being and forthrightly condemn the fucking ISIS nutjobs?
And more important: would you be decent and forthright even if the fucking nutjob ISIS supporters were part of your political “base”?
–TP
To people who condemn “violence” I say:
Imagine that ISIS supporters with black flags and torches and openly carrying scimitars staged a rally on Boston Common. Imagine that a coalition of atheist and Unitarian counter-protesters confronted them. Suppose “violence” ensued.
Would you confine your reaction to pious condemnations of “violence”? Would you indulge your both-sides fetish with ritual whining about “coming together”?
Or would you act like a decent human being and forthrightly condemn the fucking ISIS nutjobs?
And more important: would you be decent and forthright even if the fucking nutjob ISIS supporters were part of your political “base”?
–TP
Was going to link to a great article in today’s Guardian about German nursery schools where the kids vote on almost everything, and how well it’s working and the excellent effects on the kids of knowing their rights, ability to influence their lives by taking part in a democratic process etc, but alas: since I last linked to the Guardian or the Observer they have put up a paywall. I know of course that they need money, and I occasionally donate in reply to their appeals (much as I do to Wikipedia), but I’m just not up for another subscription on top of the NYT and getting the Guardian every Saturday and the Observer every Sunday.
Anyway, for anyone with a subscription already, it’s page 17 of today’s main paper, and the headline is Pudding or Puree? Democracy put to the Test at Nursery.
Was going to link to a great article in today’s Guardian about German nursery schools where the kids vote on almost everything, and how well it’s working and the excellent effects on the kids of knowing their rights, ability to influence their lives by taking part in a democratic process etc, but alas: since I last linked to the Guardian or the Observer they have put up a paywall. I know of course that they need money, and I occasionally donate in reply to their appeals (much as I do to Wikipedia), but I’m just not up for another subscription on top of the NYT and getting the Guardian every Saturday and the Observer every Sunday.
Anyway, for anyone with a subscription already, it’s page 17 of today’s main paper, and the headline is Pudding or Puree? Democracy put to the Test at Nursery.
actual neo-nazis have killed people in VA today.
Trump blames “all sides”.
the right is a cancer.
actual neo-nazis have killed people in VA today.
Trump blames “all sides”.
the right is a cancer.
How awful. I hope to God they catch the scum who did this. As for the scum who marched, I’m with Tony P above. Sure I don’t like violence, but opposing hate and discrimination is every decent person’s duty, and sometimes you have to stand up for what you believe. Seeing Trump still trying to appease the worst element of his admittedly awful base is just pathetic and disgusting.
How awful. I hope to God they catch the scum who did this. As for the scum who marched, I’m with Tony P above. Sure I don’t like violence, but opposing hate and discrimination is every decent person’s duty, and sometimes you have to stand up for what you believe. Seeing Trump still trying to appease the worst element of his admittedly awful base is just pathetic and disgusting.
Hate speech is legal in the US. Assault and murder are not.
Hate speech is legal in the US. Assault and murder are not.
People like them can talk, and march. But people like us can also march, and talk back. It seems to be mainly people like them who actually kill people…
People like them can talk, and march. But people like us can also march, and talk back. It seems to be mainly people like them who actually kill people…
Hate speech is legal in the US.
and can get you elected President.
the right needs to burn.
Hate speech is legal in the US.
and can get you elected President.
the right needs to burn.
looks like the guy driving the car which ultimately caused the fatality was panicked, and actually isn’t a Trump supporter.
so: an accident.
looks like the guy driving the car which ultimately caused the fatality was panicked, and actually isn’t a Trump supporter.
so: an accident.
Of the 85 violent extremist incidents that resulted in death since September 12, 2001, far right wing violent extremist groups were responsible for 62 (73 percent) while radical Islamist violent extremists were responsible for 23 (27 percent). The total number of fatalities is about the same for far right wing violent extremists and radical Islamist violent extremists over the approximately 15- year period (106 and 119, respectively). However, 41 percent of the deaths attributable to radical Islamist violent extremists occurred in a single event —an attack at an Orlando, Florida night club in 2016.
Countering Violent Extremism: Actions Needed to Define Strategy and Assess Progress of Federal Efforts (.pdf – page 4)
Of the 85 violent extremist incidents that resulted in death since September 12, 2001, far right wing violent extremist groups were responsible for 62 (73 percent) while radical Islamist violent extremists were responsible for 23 (27 percent). The total number of fatalities is about the same for far right wing violent extremists and radical Islamist violent extremists over the approximately 15- year period (106 and 119, respectively). However, 41 percent of the deaths attributable to radical Islamist violent extremists occurred in a single event —an attack at an Orlando, Florida night club in 2016.
Countering Violent Extremism: Actions Needed to Define Strategy and Assess Progress of Federal Efforts (.pdf – page 4)
so: an accident.
I’m very glad. When such an act is done on purpose, the poisonous ripples spread very wide.
Of the 85 violent extremist incidents that resulted in death since September 12, 2001, far right wing violent extremist groups were responsible for 62 (73 percent) while radical Islamist violent extremists were responsible for 23 (27 percent).
No deaths caused by liberals/lefties I notice. I wonder if any journalist is going to bring these statistics about who is most responsible for “ideological” deaths in America up to Trump, or one of his spokestrolls, in an interview…
so: an accident.
I’m very glad. When such an act is done on purpose, the poisonous ripples spread very wide.
Of the 85 violent extremist incidents that resulted in death since September 12, 2001, far right wing violent extremist groups were responsible for 62 (73 percent) while radical Islamist violent extremists were responsible for 23 (27 percent).
No deaths caused by liberals/lefties I notice. I wonder if any journalist is going to bring these statistics about who is most responsible for “ideological” deaths in America up to Trump, or one of his spokestrolls, in an interview…
No deaths caused by liberals/lefties I notice.
The report was written before the baseball field shooting.
No deaths caused by liberals/lefties I notice.
The report was written before the baseball field shooting.
Ah yes.
Not exactly what I would call a typical liberal/lefty then, but nonetheless I give you this: he was anti-Trump, anti-Republican and pro-Sanders. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio…
Ah yes.
Not exactly what I would call a typical liberal/lefty then, but nonetheless I give you this: he was anti-Trump, anti-Republican and pro-Sanders. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio…
No deaths caused by liberals/lefties I notice.
The report was written before the baseball field shooting.
oddly enough, and in a stroke of great good fortune, the only death that resulted from Hodgkinson’s attack was his own.
apparently, the right wing wackos intent on murder are better at it.
i’m still trying to get my head around trump’s “both sides” comment. one “side” is made up of real live fascists, nazis, carrying flags with swastikas in case anyone is still unclear on what they’re about.
the position of the POTUS should not be that anyone needs to “come together” with freaking nazis. nazis don’t “come together” with anybody, their interest is in either dominating or eliminating anyone not like them.
there is no common ground to find. pick a side, because “in between” is not one of the options.
pick a side, donald. they think you’re on theirs. maybe you want to make it clear whether you are or not.
No deaths caused by liberals/lefties I notice.
The report was written before the baseball field shooting.
oddly enough, and in a stroke of great good fortune, the only death that resulted from Hodgkinson’s attack was his own.
apparently, the right wing wackos intent on murder are better at it.
i’m still trying to get my head around trump’s “both sides” comment. one “side” is made up of real live fascists, nazis, carrying flags with swastikas in case anyone is still unclear on what they’re about.
the position of the POTUS should not be that anyone needs to “come together” with freaking nazis. nazis don’t “come together” with anybody, their interest is in either dominating or eliminating anyone not like them.
there is no common ground to find. pick a side, because “in between” is not one of the options.
pick a side, donald. they think you’re on theirs. maybe you want to make it clear whether you are or not.
cleek:
Where are you getting that it was an accident? The Charlottesville TV station reports
cleek:
Where are you getting that it was an accident? The Charlottesville TV station reports
actual neo-nazis have killed people in VA today.
Trump blames “all sides”.
the right is a cancer.
Trump’s “command” of language being what it is, I am forced to at least consider that him condemning what happened at all is actually about the most one could hope for. Not to say that he might not have been deliberately pandering to the folks involved. Just that, even if he wasn’t, he might have phrased things this way.
actual neo-nazis have killed people in VA today.
Trump blames “all sides”.
the right is a cancer.
Trump’s “command” of language being what it is, I am forced to at least consider that him condemning what happened at all is actually about the most one could hope for. Not to say that he might not have been deliberately pandering to the folks involved. Just that, even if he wasn’t, he might have phrased things this way.
wj,
so, soft bigotry of low expectations, then?
Sounds plausible.
wj,
so, soft bigotry of low expectations, then?
Sounds plausible.
Snarki,
Exactly
Snarki,
Exactly
Where are you getting that it was an accident?
i forget the site.
said he was just some guy who got caught in traffic, his car was getting pelted with rocks and carp so he panicked and ended up rear-ending the car(s) the actually killed the person.
but i’d have thought MSM would have picked up on that by now. i’ve also seen that 4chan is pumping out fake names for the person.
i honestly don’t know what the state of things are right now.
Where are you getting that it was an accident?
i forget the site.
said he was just some guy who got caught in traffic, his car was getting pelted with rocks and carp so he panicked and ended up rear-ending the car(s) the actually killed the person.
but i’d have thought MSM would have picked up on that by now. i’ve also seen that 4chan is pumping out fake names for the person.
i honestly don’t know what the state of things are right now.
Are we really reduced to the point of appeasing the “white working class” by grading their Dear Leader on a curve? A curve that’s normalized at the moral and intellectual average of spoiled 6-year-olds??
When Iranians “elected” looney-tune Ahmadinejad as their “president”, red-blooded Murkins could justifiably ask The Iranian People: “Are you nuts, or what?” It’s time to ask those red-blooded Murkins the same question. And to kick them in the ass if they so much as whisper “Benghazi” or “email server” before they answer “Yeah, we blew it”.
–TP
P.S.: Apologies to 6-year-olds; most of them are in fact morally and intellectually superior to He, Trump.
Are we really reduced to the point of appeasing the “white working class” by grading their Dear Leader on a curve? A curve that’s normalized at the moral and intellectual average of spoiled 6-year-olds??
When Iranians “elected” looney-tune Ahmadinejad as their “president”, red-blooded Murkins could justifiably ask The Iranian People: “Are you nuts, or what?” It’s time to ask those red-blooded Murkins the same question. And to kick them in the ass if they so much as whisper “Benghazi” or “email server” before they answer “Yeah, we blew it”.
–TP
P.S.: Apologies to 6-year-olds; most of them are in fact morally and intellectually superior to He, Trump.
I wasn’t so much (consciously) grading on a curve as trying to recognize the low level of competence we are dealing with.
When I think he’s deliberately being toxic (usually), that’s one thing and he gets no slack. But I entertain the possibility that occasionally, maybe, he will try to do the right thing . . . and, being how he is, blow the execution. Whether this or any other specific case fits that possibility is, of course, a separate question.
I wasn’t so much (consciously) grading on a curve as trying to recognize the low level of competence we are dealing with.
When I think he’s deliberately being toxic (usually), that’s one thing and he gets no slack. But I entertain the possibility that occasionally, maybe, he will try to do the right thing . . . and, being how he is, blow the execution. Whether this or any other specific case fits that possibility is, of course, a separate question.
I am forced to at least consider that him condemning what happened at all is actually about the most one could hope for.
Not even close to good enough.
He’s the freaking POTUS. There is no curve. There are no bonus points for good intentions. “Blowing the execution” is failure.
Don’t want those terms, don’t take the gig.
Seriously, it’s not a position for learn-on-the-job amateurs. Which is what we are dealing with.
In the words of Yoda, for the POTUS, there is no try, there is only do or not do.
He’s not doing.
i’ve also seen that 4chan is pumping out fake names for the person.
Actually, “the right” is not a cancer. 4chan is a cancer.
I am forced to at least consider that him condemning what happened at all is actually about the most one could hope for.
Not even close to good enough.
He’s the freaking POTUS. There is no curve. There are no bonus points for good intentions. “Blowing the execution” is failure.
Don’t want those terms, don’t take the gig.
Seriously, it’s not a position for learn-on-the-job amateurs. Which is what we are dealing with.
In the words of Yoda, for the POTUS, there is no try, there is only do or not do.
He’s not doing.
i’ve also seen that 4chan is pumping out fake names for the person.
Actually, “the right” is not a cancer. 4chan is a cancer.
Splitting hairs in the land of the hairless.
The balanced middle loses its balance and sinks from both ends.
We need a bloody savage military coup to overthrow by violence the entire trump/republican/right wing confederacy. Take no prisoners, kill all of them outright and their families.
But that won’t happen will it? Because our military is filled with right wing vermin who would be happy to slaughter anyone to the left of Jeff Sessions.
The Left is unarmed and a dry pussy of pointless blithering compromise.
I write this two days since touring John Brown’s Fort at Harper’s Ferry and pondering his massive strategic mistakes. For one, not raising an army of at least a million professional killers to wreak justice on the filthy gutless conservative confederates of his day.
And two, trusting in God. The Christian God in this godfucked country always comes down on the side of those who enslave, maim, and slaughter.
Else, why are they always with us, making our lives a misery and calling it conservative.
Tomorrow, my son and I will take in a Yankees/RedSox game at Yankees Stadium. Maybe read a little Montaigne in the afternoon while the shadow of doom encircles us.
The clouds in today’s sky looked vaguely mushroomy and there are too many sick fuck vermin in this country who look forward, with smirking, sadistic right wing glee to those portentous shapes becoming a reality.
If the evil vermin rump and his company of murderers do even the slightest harm to my son at any time in any way, I pledge that I will kill every republican, friend and foe, in this country.
Splitting hairs in the land of the hairless.
The balanced middle loses its balance and sinks from both ends.
We need a bloody savage military coup to overthrow by violence the entire trump/republican/right wing confederacy. Take no prisoners, kill all of them outright and their families.
But that won’t happen will it? Because our military is filled with right wing vermin who would be happy to slaughter anyone to the left of Jeff Sessions.
The Left is unarmed and a dry pussy of pointless blithering compromise.
I write this two days since touring John Brown’s Fort at Harper’s Ferry and pondering his massive strategic mistakes. For one, not raising an army of at least a million professional killers to wreak justice on the filthy gutless conservative confederates of his day.
And two, trusting in God. The Christian God in this godfucked country always comes down on the side of those who enslave, maim, and slaughter.
Else, why are they always with us, making our lives a misery and calling it conservative.
Tomorrow, my son and I will take in a Yankees/RedSox game at Yankees Stadium. Maybe read a little Montaigne in the afternoon while the shadow of doom encircles us.
The clouds in today’s sky looked vaguely mushroomy and there are too many sick fuck vermin in this country who look forward, with smirking, sadistic right wing glee to those portentous shapes becoming a reality.
If the evil vermin rump and his company of murderers do even the slightest harm to my son at any time in any way, I pledge that I will kill every republican, friend and foe, in this country.
Of course it’s not good enough. But given the reality we have, I think there is something to be said for focusing my outrage. Rather than going all scattershot in what is clearly a “target-rich environment”.
In a perfect world, we wouldn’t have to pick and choose like this. But in a perfect world Trump would be nothing but a failed New York real estate promoter and reality TV wanna-be.
Of course it’s not good enough. But given the reality we have, I think there is something to be said for focusing my outrage. Rather than going all scattershot in what is clearly a “target-rich environment”.
In a perfect world, we wouldn’t have to pick and choose like this. But in a perfect world Trump would be nothing but a failed New York real estate promoter and reality TV wanna-be.
The Christian God in this godfucked country always comes down on the side of those who enslave, maim, and slaughter.
a brief theological aside.
as i understand it, the god that christians affirm does not, never has, never will, come down on the side of those who enslave, maim, and slaughter.
so those who enslave, maim, and slaughter need to watch their @sses.
given the reality we have, I think there is something to be said for focusing my outrage
that’s all good.
my approach, personally, is to not relax the bar.
if that proves embarrassing for our POTUS and his supporters, that is their hash to settle.
no grading on a curve.
The Christian God in this godfucked country always comes down on the side of those who enslave, maim, and slaughter.
a brief theological aside.
as i understand it, the god that christians affirm does not, never has, never will, come down on the side of those who enslave, maim, and slaughter.
so those who enslave, maim, and slaughter need to watch their @sses.
given the reality we have, I think there is something to be said for focusing my outrage
that’s all good.
my approach, personally, is to not relax the bar.
if that proves embarrassing for our POTUS and his supporters, that is their hash to settle.
no grading on a curve.
The Charlottesville Police Chief Said the Crash Was ‘Premeditated’
well fuck.
http://heavy.com/news/2017/08/james-alex-fields-jr-charlottesville-suspect-arrested-driver-crashed-rally-republican-age-bio-video/
no, the right is diseased. and it is being fed from the very top of the country.
burn the right down.
The Charlottesville Police Chief Said the Crash Was ‘Premeditated’
well fuck.
http://heavy.com/news/2017/08/james-alex-fields-jr-charlottesville-suspect-arrested-driver-crashed-rally-republican-age-bio-video/
no, the right is diseased. and it is being fed from the very top of the country.
burn the right down.
Just curious about something.
The things I read say that the driver was booked on second degree murder. I understand that the charge could change before this gets to trial. But perhaps someone with more knowledge of the law can help. Would it be second degree, rather than first degree, simply because, while he intended murder, he didn’t intend murder of the specific individual killed? Seriously, would that be enough to get the lower charge?
Just curious about something.
The things I read say that the driver was booked on second degree murder. I understand that the charge could change before this gets to trial. But perhaps someone with more knowledge of the law can help. Would it be second degree, rather than first degree, simply because, while he intended murder, he didn’t intend murder of the specific individual killed? Seriously, would that be enough to get the lower charge?
russell: as i understand it, the god that christians affirm does not, never has, never will, come down on the side of those who enslave, maim, and slaughter.
Sorry, but that depends on which “christians” you’re talking about. There is a large body of “christians” for whom the bloody-minded, vindictive, gay-loathing, massacre-and-enslavement inciting, tribal god of some bronze-age polygamist shepherds outranks His Only Begotten Son as a paragon of “christian” ethics.
When He, Trump declares that “we love our god”, does any sentient person believe that Jesus Christ is the god he means? Somehow, Christ’s advice to “sell all thou hast and give to the poor” seems incompatible with He, Trump’s entire “brand”. And as for slapping Him on one cheek, well … his “christian” mouthpieces have made a point of His refusal to follow Christ’s admonition in that regard. Certain “christians” in his “base” see him as their champion for that alone.
It’s no more my place to judge theological arguments among Christians than among Muslims, Jews, or Hindus. But it does seem to me, from outside, that there are vast differences within all those religions, as well as between them.
–TP
russell: as i understand it, the god that christians affirm does not, never has, never will, come down on the side of those who enslave, maim, and slaughter.
Sorry, but that depends on which “christians” you’re talking about. There is a large body of “christians” for whom the bloody-minded, vindictive, gay-loathing, massacre-and-enslavement inciting, tribal god of some bronze-age polygamist shepherds outranks His Only Begotten Son as a paragon of “christian” ethics.
When He, Trump declares that “we love our god”, does any sentient person believe that Jesus Christ is the god he means? Somehow, Christ’s advice to “sell all thou hast and give to the poor” seems incompatible with He, Trump’s entire “brand”. And as for slapping Him on one cheek, well … his “christian” mouthpieces have made a point of His refusal to follow Christ’s admonition in that regard. Certain “christians” in his “base” see him as their champion for that alone.
It’s no more my place to judge theological arguments among Christians than among Muslims, Jews, or Hindus. But it does seem to me, from outside, that there are vast differences within all those religions, as well as between them.
–TP
“it is being fed from the very top of the country”
The malign republican dunce at the top revealed his violence-encouraging brand in every fascist rally he held during election season, so all who voted for this paragon of evil and all those who enabled his ascension to lead the ruination of our country were fully on board with his fucking murderous intentions.
No one walks free from their collusion with this Evil without savage punishment.
The Nazis today and their republican enablers in Virginia should have been gunned down en masse by Patriots and statuary of those patriots who liberated America from this scourge should be erected in place of the confederate traitorous vermin whose statues have honored racism and pigfucking states rights in the name of fucking our fellow Americans these past 150 years.
I didn’t feel this way in the past. I didn’t feel this way a year ago. I didn’t feel this way yesterday and I’ve driven through the South the past 10 days and people are as nice as can be.
But there is malignity abroad all over this land and whatever pisses this malignity off so it takes up the weaponry the fascist NRA has armed it with and comes after me so I can fucking kill it in self-defense is my true aim.
It’s cleek’s law in extremis. Ok I’m poised off now by every fucking utterance about every fucking issue by every fucking conservative and you put me here.
Why is it so surprising that now I’m going to react with savagery. Who do assholes think you are?
A note on what’s left of American religion. It’s nothing more than Ayn Rand disguised in priestly vestments …. The prosperity gospel and fuck the hindmost.
It wiil be killed. The filth will be liberated from paying taxes for eternity.
“it is being fed from the very top of the country”
The malign republican dunce at the top revealed his violence-encouraging brand in every fascist rally he held during election season, so all who voted for this paragon of evil and all those who enabled his ascension to lead the ruination of our country were fully on board with his fucking murderous intentions.
No one walks free from their collusion with this Evil without savage punishment.
The Nazis today and their republican enablers in Virginia should have been gunned down en masse by Patriots and statuary of those patriots who liberated America from this scourge should be erected in place of the confederate traitorous vermin whose statues have honored racism and pigfucking states rights in the name of fucking our fellow Americans these past 150 years.
I didn’t feel this way in the past. I didn’t feel this way a year ago. I didn’t feel this way yesterday and I’ve driven through the South the past 10 days and people are as nice as can be.
But there is malignity abroad all over this land and whatever pisses this malignity off so it takes up the weaponry the fascist NRA has armed it with and comes after me so I can fucking kill it in self-defense is my true aim.
It’s cleek’s law in extremis. Ok I’m poised off now by every fucking utterance about every fucking issue by every fucking conservative and you put me here.
Why is it so surprising that now I’m going to react with savagery. Who do assholes think you are?
A note on what’s left of American religion. It’s nothing more than Ayn Rand disguised in priestly vestments …. The prosperity gospel and fuck the hindmost.
It wiil be killed. The filth will be liberated from paying taxes for eternity.
Juanita Jean makes the small but cogent point that the racist antisemitic republican voters who marched and murdered in Virginia were carrying tiki torches made in Asia and purchased from Walmart as the entire process, which republicans extoll, ruins small Main Street businesses and living wages for millions of Americans, the latter of whom turn around and buy tiki torches made in Asia at Walmart to goose step against the entire mess.
Americans as a class of people are leading all other nations in the full of shit olympics for dumbasses.
Juanita Jean makes the small but cogent point that the racist antisemitic republican voters who marched and murdered in Virginia were carrying tiki torches made in Asia and purchased from Walmart as the entire process, which republicans extoll, ruins small Main Street businesses and living wages for millions of Americans, the latter of whom turn around and buy tiki torches made in Asia at Walmart to goose step against the entire mess.
Americans as a class of people are leading all other nations in the full of shit olympics for dumbasses.
Catching up after traveling for the last few days.
Before more important business, quoted for truth:
And the Irish are a whole other story –
they are pretty much nothing like the English (and on the whole, I mean that as a compliment). Apart from anything else, they drink a whole lot more.
Posted by: Girl from the North Country
Full disclosure: I’m half Irish catholic (and half German jew … a confluence of two great rivers of guilt) … I’ve enjoyed my time in England, but they will always be referred to as “the oppressors” in the presence of some of my relatives.
The things I read say that the driver was booked on second degree murder. I understand that the charge could change before this gets to trial. But perhaps someone with more knowledge of the law can help. Would it be second degree, rather than first degree, simply because, while he intended murder, he didn’t intend murder of the specific individual killed? Seriously, would that be enough to get the lower charge?
Posted by: wj
More disclosure: I’m an attorney, but not in the area of criminal law … nothing I post is to be considered legal advice, yadda, yadda, yadda
States vary in the specifics and I have not researched VA law, but in terms of the first year law school definitions, first degree murder is premeditated in terms of the perpetrator planned it for more than a split second. The fact that the perp killed someone other than the intended target or killed indiscriminately doesn’t come into play, see, e.g., felony murder rule. It’s the quality (and perhaps quantum) of mens rea that matters. Second degree murder is often described as a crime of passion. The perp intended to kill, but the mens rea was formed so quickly that it doesn’t meet the standard for first degree murder. The classic example is a someone comes home to find their spouse in bed with their best friend and has a gun handy and in a split second of rage kills them, see “heat of passion”. The perp intended to do it, but there isn’t enough premeditation for first degree murder.
The other definition being that second degree murder is based on engaging in dangerous activity resulting in the death of another which demonstrates a clear indifference to the welfare of human life. Under this definition, the perp didn’t intend to kill, but did something so monumentally dangerous that manslaughter isn’t enough.
I could come up with fact patterns fleshing out our current low level of knowledge that would satisfy either/both of these definitions.
Once again, this is a very rough and general description. If the investigation reveals more than a split second of planning for this attack, the VA terror-by-car perp will get bumped up to first degree plus a whole lot more.
And now for the part of the program where the new guy drops a turd in the punch bowl …
This alt-right, white nationalism BS has been brewing for a while; long before Trump. It’s a puss-filled boil that needed to be lanced before it became a severe drug-resistant sepsis. Trump didn’t create it; he cravenly harnessed it. We are kinda sorta lucky that such an incompetent buffoon is in charge and is fomenting this spasm of domestic terror. Imagine if someone with skills beyond a carnival barker was slowly nurturing this into a real movement?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying this is a good thing in and of itself. Perhaps there was a way to navigate the shoals of white resentment without grazing any rocks, but it was going to be difficult. That Trump and the alt-right is screwing up before even pulling away from the dock may be the best we could have hoped for. It serves as a wake up call for the complacent before things really get out of hand. Clearly this is cold comfort for victims and their families and my heart goes out to them.
Catching up after traveling for the last few days.
Before more important business, quoted for truth:
And the Irish are a whole other story –
they are pretty much nothing like the English (and on the whole, I mean that as a compliment). Apart from anything else, they drink a whole lot more.
Posted by: Girl from the North Country
Full disclosure: I’m half Irish catholic (and half German jew … a confluence of two great rivers of guilt) … I’ve enjoyed my time in England, but they will always be referred to as “the oppressors” in the presence of some of my relatives.
The things I read say that the driver was booked on second degree murder. I understand that the charge could change before this gets to trial. But perhaps someone with more knowledge of the law can help. Would it be second degree, rather than first degree, simply because, while he intended murder, he didn’t intend murder of the specific individual killed? Seriously, would that be enough to get the lower charge?
Posted by: wj
More disclosure: I’m an attorney, but not in the area of criminal law … nothing I post is to be considered legal advice, yadda, yadda, yadda
States vary in the specifics and I have not researched VA law, but in terms of the first year law school definitions, first degree murder is premeditated in terms of the perpetrator planned it for more than a split second. The fact that the perp killed someone other than the intended target or killed indiscriminately doesn’t come into play, see, e.g., felony murder rule. It’s the quality (and perhaps quantum) of mens rea that matters. Second degree murder is often described as a crime of passion. The perp intended to kill, but the mens rea was formed so quickly that it doesn’t meet the standard for first degree murder. The classic example is a someone comes home to find their spouse in bed with their best friend and has a gun handy and in a split second of rage kills them, see “heat of passion”. The perp intended to do it, but there isn’t enough premeditation for first degree murder.
The other definition being that second degree murder is based on engaging in dangerous activity resulting in the death of another which demonstrates a clear indifference to the welfare of human life. Under this definition, the perp didn’t intend to kill, but did something so monumentally dangerous that manslaughter isn’t enough.
I could come up with fact patterns fleshing out our current low level of knowledge that would satisfy either/both of these definitions.
Once again, this is a very rough and general description. If the investigation reveals more than a split second of planning for this attack, the VA terror-by-car perp will get bumped up to first degree plus a whole lot more.
And now for the part of the program where the new guy drops a turd in the punch bowl …
This alt-right, white nationalism BS has been brewing for a while; long before Trump. It’s a puss-filled boil that needed to be lanced before it became a severe drug-resistant sepsis. Trump didn’t create it; he cravenly harnessed it. We are kinda sorta lucky that such an incompetent buffoon is in charge and is fomenting this spasm of domestic terror. Imagine if someone with skills beyond a carnival barker was slowly nurturing this into a real movement?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying this is a good thing in and of itself. Perhaps there was a way to navigate the shoals of white resentment without grazing any rocks, but it was going to be difficult. That Trump and the alt-right is screwing up before even pulling away from the dock may be the best we could have hoped for. It serves as a wake up call for the complacent before things really get out of hand. Clearly this is cold comfort for victims and their families and my heart goes out to them.
it does seem to me, from outside, that there are vast differences within all those religions
It’s nothing more than Ayn Rand disguised in priestly vestments .
i do not disagree
it does seem to me, from outside, that there are vast differences within all those religions
It’s nothing more than Ayn Rand disguised in priestly vestments .
i do not disagree
Trump didn’t create it; he cravenly harnessed it
this.
Trump didn’t create it; he cravenly harnessed it
this.
he cravenly harnessed it
and he seems to be trying to normalize it. or, he’s at least trying to give it a chance to grow.
or, at the very, very least, he’s too stupid to know that’s what he’s doing.
he cravenly harnessed it
and he seems to be trying to normalize it. or, he’s at least trying to give it a chance to grow.
or, at the very, very least, he’s too stupid to know that’s what he’s doing.
“he’s too stupid to know that’s what he’s doing.”
He’s too narcissistic to ever admit a mistake, so “gives it a chance to grow”
Plus evil AND stupid, of course.
“he’s too stupid to know that’s what he’s doing.”
He’s too narcissistic to ever admit a mistake, so “gives it a chance to grow”
Plus evil AND stupid, of course.
Full disclosure: I’m half Irish catholic (and half German jew … a confluence of two great rivers of guilt) … I’ve enjoyed my time in England, but they will always be referred to as “the oppressors” in the presence of some of my relatives.
My grandfather (who emigrated to South Africa in the late 19th century) was pretty embedded in Afrikaner politics, and fought in the Boer War despite being a European jew. He sounds from many stories like he was an absolutely fantastic guy. My mother told us that he never referred to England alone, always “England the whore”.
Full disclosure: I’m half Irish catholic (and half German jew … a confluence of two great rivers of guilt) … I’ve enjoyed my time in England, but they will always be referred to as “the oppressors” in the presence of some of my relatives.
My grandfather (who emigrated to South Africa in the late 19th century) was pretty embedded in Afrikaner politics, and fought in the Boer War despite being a European jew. He sounds from many stories like he was an absolutely fantastic guy. My mother told us that he never referred to England alone, always “England the whore”.
Pollo, thanks very much for the info on the varieties of homicide.
As for Trump and the racist scum, we should perhaps be thankful that he has been so industriously alienating every other Republican politician in sight. Just that little bit more incentive, or at least lack of disincentive, for them to do the right when his fans pull something like this.
Pollo, thanks very much for the info on the varieties of homicide.
As for Trump and the racist scum, we should perhaps be thankful that he has been so industriously alienating every other Republican politician in sight. Just that little bit more incentive, or at least lack of disincentive, for them to do the right when his fans pull something like this.
He’s not stupid, he’s a coward. The vast majority of Southern whites hate the KKK, but why risk it?
I had hoped Dukes mouth would force a response but, unsurprisingly, even that didn’t do the trick.
On the only other hand, taking down statues of Robert E. Lee is stupid and petty. If you want to get rid of all the statues of people who supported slavery at one time or another you get to start at the Lincoln Memorial and work backwards.
He’s not stupid, he’s a coward. The vast majority of Southern whites hate the KKK, but why risk it?
I had hoped Dukes mouth would force a response but, unsurprisingly, even that didn’t do the trick.
On the only other hand, taking down statues of Robert E. Lee is stupid and petty. If you want to get rid of all the statues of people who supported slavery at one time or another you get to start at the Lincoln Memorial and work backwards.
and he seems to be trying to normalize it. or, he’s at least trying to give it a chance to grow.
or, at the very, very least, he’s too stupid to know that’s what he’s doing.
Posted by: formerly known as cleek
I really think it’s the latter. I’ve said elsewhere that the root of all evil in politics is rationalization. “I want to do great things over here, so I’m willing to pander over there to get the result I want.” While not trying to draw a false equivalency, I’ve seen it on both the left and right.
As best I can tell, outside of ego gratification, Trump only really cares about tax cuts for the rich and economic nationalism. Everything he does is in service of those three things. In other words, I don’t believe that Trump is really much more of a racist than your average upper west side Manhattanite; that’s pretty racist, but not Nazi salutin’ racist.
Mainstream Republicans have been rationalizing their flirtation with racist elements since CRA and Nixon. They have been restrained by (a) not being a racist; (b) understanding that there is a line beyond the dog-whistle-zone where the backlash is fatal; ( c) a combination of the two.
Trump’s mistake is being too stupid to see any of these lines that restrained mainstream Republicans and being too ego driven to risk alienating a non-trivial part of his remaining base of support.
and he seems to be trying to normalize it. or, he’s at least trying to give it a chance to grow.
or, at the very, very least, he’s too stupid to know that’s what he’s doing.
Posted by: formerly known as cleek
I really think it’s the latter. I’ve said elsewhere that the root of all evil in politics is rationalization. “I want to do great things over here, so I’m willing to pander over there to get the result I want.” While not trying to draw a false equivalency, I’ve seen it on both the left and right.
As best I can tell, outside of ego gratification, Trump only really cares about tax cuts for the rich and economic nationalism. Everything he does is in service of those three things. In other words, I don’t believe that Trump is really much more of a racist than your average upper west side Manhattanite; that’s pretty racist, but not Nazi salutin’ racist.
Mainstream Republicans have been rationalizing their flirtation with racist elements since CRA and Nixon. They have been restrained by (a) not being a racist; (b) understanding that there is a line beyond the dog-whistle-zone where the backlash is fatal; ( c) a combination of the two.
Trump’s mistake is being too stupid to see any of these lines that restrained mainstream Republicans and being too ego driven to risk alienating a non-trivial part of his remaining base of support.
In other words, I don’t believe that Trump is really much more of a racist than your average upper west side Manhattanite; that’s pretty racist, but not Nazi salutin’ racist.
His birtherism was aggressive, long-lasting, and unhinged. I suppose the unhinged part could be put down to the toxic mix of his ego, his stupidity, and the fawning bubble he seems to live inside. But I really don’t think he’s anyone’s “average” racist.
In other words, I don’t believe that Trump is really much more of a racist than your average upper west side Manhattanite; that’s pretty racist, but not Nazi salutin’ racist.
His birtherism was aggressive, long-lasting, and unhinged. I suppose the unhinged part could be put down to the toxic mix of his ego, his stupidity, and the fawning bubble he seems to live inside. But I really don’t think he’s anyone’s “average” racist.
taking down statues of Robert E. Lee is stupid and petty
THE SOUTH SECEDED AND FOUGHT BECAUSE OF, AND TO PRESERVE, SLAVERY
SLAVERY
taking down statues of Robert E. Lee is stupid and petty
THE SOUTH SECEDED AND FOUGHT BECAUSE OF, AND TO PRESERVE, SLAVERY
SLAVERY
Plus evil AND stupid, of course.
Posted by: Snarki, child of Loki
Not to be pedantic … strike that, this is ObWi, pedantry is encouraged and expected …
It’s hard to be both evil AND stupid. Evil almost requires knowledge. There is a level of reckless indifference to facts or knowledge that crosses over into evil territory but I don’t think that Trump is there … yet.
Cf., Paul Manafort and Roger Stone. These two possessed a combination of knowledge and reckless indifference re: the actions of their clients and the impact of their lobbying efforts to get in the same zip code as evil. I don’t think Trump is there yet.
Plus evil AND stupid, of course.
Posted by: Snarki, child of Loki
Not to be pedantic … strike that, this is ObWi, pedantry is encouraged and expected …
It’s hard to be both evil AND stupid. Evil almost requires knowledge. There is a level of reckless indifference to facts or knowledge that crosses over into evil territory but I don’t think that Trump is there … yet.
Cf., Paul Manafort and Roger Stone. These two possessed a combination of knowledge and reckless indifference re: the actions of their clients and the impact of their lobbying efforts to get in the same zip code as evil. I don’t think Trump is there yet.
His birtherism was aggressive, long-lasting, and unhinged. I suppose the unhinged part could be put down to the toxic mix of his ego, his stupidity, and the fawning bubble he seems to live inside. But I really don’t think he’s anyone’s “average” racist.
Posted by: JanieM
My expectation for the “average American racist” might be lower than yours.
His birtherism was aggressive, long-lasting, and unhinged. I suppose the unhinged part could be put down to the toxic mix of his ego, his stupidity, and the fawning bubble he seems to live inside. But I really don’t think he’s anyone’s “average” racist.
Posted by: JanieM
My expectation for the “average American racist” might be lower than yours.
I don’t think Trump is there yet.
There comes a point where the inability to see oneself from the outside and the utter refusal to take responsibility for the effects of one’s own actions in the world must be judged by the effects themselves.
The effects of Trump’s public presence are, on balance and IMHO, evil, and his stupidity doesn’t excuse them or mitigate them in any way.
But I foresee that there’s going to be no end to the hair-splitting pedantry, so I won’t respond again.
I don’t think Trump is there yet.
There comes a point where the inability to see oneself from the outside and the utter refusal to take responsibility for the effects of one’s own actions in the world must be judged by the effects themselves.
The effects of Trump’s public presence are, on balance and IMHO, evil, and his stupidity doesn’t excuse them or mitigate them in any way.
But I foresee that there’s going to be no end to the hair-splitting pedantry, so I won’t respond again.
If you want to get rid of all the statues of people who supported slavery at one time or another you get to start at the Lincoln Memorial and work backwards.
This is actually kind of an interesting point, IMO. That’s not to say I agree with Marty about who should be celebrated with statues and other memorials, but it’s something worth talking about.
Why, for example, is it okay to memorialize the famously slave-owning Thomas Jefferson but not Robert E. Lee? The first answer that comes to my mind is that Jefferson isn’t being celebrated for his support of slavery, but for other things – some of which may well have helped lay the foundation for the later abolition of slavery.
What is Robert E. Lee being memorialized for? Why do we know his name?
If you want to get rid of all the statues of people who supported slavery at one time or another you get to start at the Lincoln Memorial and work backwards.
This is actually kind of an interesting point, IMO. That’s not to say I agree with Marty about who should be celebrated with statues and other memorials, but it’s something worth talking about.
Why, for example, is it okay to memorialize the famously slave-owning Thomas Jefferson but not Robert E. Lee? The first answer that comes to my mind is that Jefferson isn’t being celebrated for his support of slavery, but for other things – some of which may well have helped lay the foundation for the later abolition of slavery.
What is Robert E. Lee being memorialized for? Why do we know his name?
There comes a point where the inability to see oneself from the outside and the utter refusal to take responsibility for the effects of one’s own actions in the world must be judged by the effects themselves.
The effects of Trump’s public presence are, on balance and IMHO, evil, and his stupidity doesn’t excuse them or mitigate them in any way.
But I foresee that there’s going to be no end to the hair-splitting pedantry, so I won’t respond again.
Posted by: JanieM
As I posted above, I agree that there is a point of reckless indifference that can drag an ignorant person into the evil zone. I’m just honestly not sure that Trump is “there” yet.
I will admit that those who know me well have noted my reluctance to use the “evil” label, so take that for what it’s worth.
Apologies if I came across as messing with you. Cynical gallows humor is endemic to my profession. I was not trying to be dismissive of your remarks. We’re having typically crappy August weather here in central Florida and I just finished a book that I need to digest so I defaulted to messing around on the intertubes. As the newbie who may have overstayed my welcome, I’ll go into self imposed exile for a bit.
Cheers.
There comes a point where the inability to see oneself from the outside and the utter refusal to take responsibility for the effects of one’s own actions in the world must be judged by the effects themselves.
The effects of Trump’s public presence are, on balance and IMHO, evil, and his stupidity doesn’t excuse them or mitigate them in any way.
But I foresee that there’s going to be no end to the hair-splitting pedantry, so I won’t respond again.
Posted by: JanieM
As I posted above, I agree that there is a point of reckless indifference that can drag an ignorant person into the evil zone. I’m just honestly not sure that Trump is “there” yet.
I will admit that those who know me well have noted my reluctance to use the “evil” label, so take that for what it’s worth.
Apologies if I came across as messing with you. Cynical gallows humor is endemic to my profession. I was not trying to be dismissive of your remarks. We’re having typically crappy August weather here in central Florida and I just finished a book that I need to digest so I defaulted to messing around on the intertubes. As the newbie who may have overstayed my welcome, I’ll go into self imposed exile for a bit.
Cheers.
hsh — that was my immediate thought, too.
But maybe, really, in a proper state of the world we would have no statues, or just statues along the lines of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. That is, we would honor the anonymous nobodies who keep the world going by their kindness, their unsung grunt work, their courage, whatever.
I think we know Lee’s name because he went to war to defend slavery. I think we know Jefferson’s name for more than that. But honestly, I don’t care much about his statues either, except that maybe by being reminded of the spectacle of his complexity, we can learn something about our own.
hsh — that was my immediate thought, too.
But maybe, really, in a proper state of the world we would have no statues, or just statues along the lines of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. That is, we would honor the anonymous nobodies who keep the world going by their kindness, their unsung grunt work, their courage, whatever.
I think we know Lee’s name because he went to war to defend slavery. I think we know Jefferson’s name for more than that. But honestly, I don’t care much about his statues either, except that maybe by being reminded of the spectacle of his complexity, we can learn something about our own.
Perhaps it comes down to expecting more from those who lived in a time when slavery was being abolished than from those (Washington and Jefferson) who lived earlier.
I can’t see anybody claiming, with a straight face, that Lee was memorialized for anything other than leading the Confederate Army. Not that someone won’t try, I suppose….
Perhaps it comes down to expecting more from those who lived in a time when slavery was being abolished than from those (Washington and Jefferson) who lived earlier.
I can’t see anybody claiming, with a straight face, that Lee was memorialized for anything other than leading the Confederate Army. Not that someone won’t try, I suppose….
Pollo, don’t feel like you have to leave!
Pollo, don’t feel like you have to leave!
As the newbie who may have overstayed my welcome, I’ll go into self imposed exile for a bit.
No need for that, unless it’s your preference.
As the newbie who may have overstayed my welcome, I’ll go into self imposed exile for a bit.
No need for that, unless it’s your preference.
As the newbie who may have overstayed my welcome, I’ll go into self imposed exile for a bit.
I don’t think you’ve overstayed your welcome, and I do think new blood is very welcome. Any of us, on a bad day, or in a testy moment, might think we’re being got at when in reality there are very few here who really do that.
As the newbie who may have overstayed my welcome, I’ll go into self imposed exile for a bit.
I don’t think you’ve overstayed your welcome, and I do think new blood is very welcome. Any of us, on a bad day, or in a testy moment, might think we’re being got at when in reality there are very few here who really do that.
hah,
Robert E Lee was redecorated and respected officer for 30 years before the war, he was an active supporter of Johnson’s reconstruction, and, while a slave owner by inheritance, joined the South because hos home state did.
He was a good man, certainly by the definition of his time, and great leader of men. Someone that long after his surrender was held in high regard in both the North and the South.
hah,
Robert E Lee was redecorated and respected officer for 30 years before the war, he was an active supporter of Johnson’s reconstruction, and, while a slave owner by inheritance, joined the South because hos home state did.
He was a good man, certainly by the definition of his time, and great leader of men. Someone that long after his surrender was held in high regard in both the North and the South.
So there wj, someone did. It seems to me that the people who want to take down the statues are the ones who only know one thing about him.
So there wj, someone did. It seems to me that the people who want to take down the statues are the ones who only know one thing about him.
Lee was certainly a great general. Without him leading the Army of Northern Virginia, the Civil War would have been over a lot sooner. And with a lot fewer casualties all around. (Admittedly 20/20 hindsight there.)
As for the people who want to take down the statue, I think they know one other thing about him: that his statue was raised originally, not because he was a great general for decades before the war, but only and specifically because he fought for the Confederacy.
Lee was certainly a great general. Without him leading the Army of Northern Virginia, the Civil War would have been over a lot sooner. And with a lot fewer casualties all around. (Admittedly 20/20 hindsight there.)
As for the people who want to take down the statue, I think they know one other thing about him: that his statue was raised originally, not because he was a great general for decades before the war, but only and specifically because he fought for the Confederacy.
Adam Silverman at BJ on the Trump administration and related topics.
Adam Silverman at BJ on the Trump administration and related topics.
Robert E Lee was redecorated and respected officer for 30 years before the war, he was an active supporter of Johnson’s reconstruction, and, while a slave owner by inheritance, joined the South because hos home state did.
Sure. But that’s not why you know his name. That’s, at most, only part of why he’s being memorialized.
Do you think there’s equivalence between memorializing Jefferson, who owned slaves, and Lee, who fought to preserve slavery? Do you think support for slavery is a significant factor in memorializing Jefferson? Do you deny that it’s a significant factor in memorialilzing Lee?
Robert E Lee was redecorated and respected officer for 30 years before the war, he was an active supporter of Johnson’s reconstruction, and, while a slave owner by inheritance, joined the South because hos home state did.
Sure. But that’s not why you know his name. That’s, at most, only part of why he’s being memorialized.
Do you think there’s equivalence between memorializing Jefferson, who owned slaves, and Lee, who fought to preserve slavery? Do you think support for slavery is a significant factor in memorializing Jefferson? Do you deny that it’s a significant factor in memorialilzing Lee?
In contrast to Robert E. Lee, Ulysses S. Grant was kind of a stumble-bum before he whupped Lee’s confederate ass. He then became a two-term president. Anybody who thinks that Grant could have become president without whupping Lee’s confederate ass is of course nuts.
So what makes Grant a figure honored highly enough to have memorials and statues? His two terms as president, or the fact that he whupped Lee’s confederate ass?
And what does Marty think would happen if Charlottesville left Lee’s statue alone and simply erected a bigger and more impressive statue of Grant right beside it?
The confederate spirit is like CO2 in the atmosphere. A little bit may be healthy, but a little bit plus epsilon can be catastrophic.
–TP
In contrast to Robert E. Lee, Ulysses S. Grant was kind of a stumble-bum before he whupped Lee’s confederate ass. He then became a two-term president. Anybody who thinks that Grant could have become president without whupping Lee’s confederate ass is of course nuts.
So what makes Grant a figure honored highly enough to have memorials and statues? His two terms as president, or the fact that he whupped Lee’s confederate ass?
And what does Marty think would happen if Charlottesville left Lee’s statue alone and simply erected a bigger and more impressive statue of Grant right beside it?
The confederate spirit is like CO2 in the atmosphere. A little bit may be healthy, but a little bit plus epsilon can be catastrophic.
–TP
taking down statues of Robert E. Lee is stupid and petty.
If people in Charlottesville don’t want a statue of Robert E Lee in their city, they’re entitled to take it down.
Yes, there is a general movement to remove monuments, memorials, and other artifacts celebrating the CSA and the people in the CSA. Folks can either receive that as political correctness run amuck, or they can receive it as reconsideration of what is worth remembering and celebrating in the nation’s history.
There were a lot of wonderful people who fought to retain and extend the practice of slavery, and the economic and social system that relied on it. Many of them were of two minds about the institution itself. Lee was of two minds about it, maybe even of one mind and against it.
Nevertheless he fought for it. His loyalty was to his state and “his people”, rather than to the union and the extension of the principles it was founded on.
So, he was on the wrong side of history.
Where are the statues of Benedict Arnold? He was a great patriot, too.
Right up until he wasn’t, just like Robert E Lee.
If folks want to take down statues of Jefferson because he was a pusillanimous hypocrite on the issue, I’m fine with that, too. I’ll help them tear them down.
If folks in a given town or city want to take down a statue that they no longer feels reflects their values, they have the right to do that. If folks want to leave them up, they have the right to do that. And lots of folks do.
The punks who showed up this weekend were not all about preserving an accurate record of the life and biography of Robert E Lee. They were about advancing the idea that white people are genetically superior to everyone else, and should therefore rule the fucking planet.
They can kiss my ass.
taking down statues of Robert E. Lee is stupid and petty.
If people in Charlottesville don’t want a statue of Robert E Lee in their city, they’re entitled to take it down.
Yes, there is a general movement to remove monuments, memorials, and other artifacts celebrating the CSA and the people in the CSA. Folks can either receive that as political correctness run amuck, or they can receive it as reconsideration of what is worth remembering and celebrating in the nation’s history.
There were a lot of wonderful people who fought to retain and extend the practice of slavery, and the economic and social system that relied on it. Many of them were of two minds about the institution itself. Lee was of two minds about it, maybe even of one mind and against it.
Nevertheless he fought for it. His loyalty was to his state and “his people”, rather than to the union and the extension of the principles it was founded on.
So, he was on the wrong side of history.
Where are the statues of Benedict Arnold? He was a great patriot, too.
Right up until he wasn’t, just like Robert E Lee.
If folks want to take down statues of Jefferson because he was a pusillanimous hypocrite on the issue, I’m fine with that, too. I’ll help them tear them down.
If folks in a given town or city want to take down a statue that they no longer feels reflects their values, they have the right to do that. If folks want to leave them up, they have the right to do that. And lots of folks do.
The punks who showed up this weekend were not all about preserving an accurate record of the life and biography of Robert E Lee. They were about advancing the idea that white people are genetically superior to everyone else, and should therefore rule the fucking planet.
They can kiss my ass.
I agree wholeheartedly regarding Lee.
In normal sane times taking down Lee’s statue would be silly.
It was silly a year ago.
But if a resurgent pansy neo-confederacy 150 years after the great slaughter (I’ve toured two Civil War battlefields in recent weeks where the Union got its head handed to it. …. Chickamauga and the site adjacent to Harper’s Ferry …. and I’ve read plenty of Civil War history), who know nothing of the misery and privation this country was subjected to the first time around, and who brandish shallow racist trappings and rhetoric and fake Nazi footwork (the SS would make short work of rump’s howling pigfuckers) all the way to the White House (do you know the lives sacrificed keeping the confederate army from overtaking the White House from their lines in the forests and fields surrounding Washington D.C. during the Civil War), we will smash all of their icons, Saddam.
And more. As far as they and their widows choose to take it.
That said, General Robert E. Lee would spit on rump and his mesmerized minions and would join Lincoln and Grant to oust them from our hallowed halls of government.
Lincoln wept when his beloved brother-in-law died horribly at Harper’s Ferry — maybe it was Chickamauga; the fact escapes me now –commanding confederate troops.
Rump and his republican know nothings would smirk and tweet over a similar event in the coming Civil War II because they are insects without honor.
And by the way, if General Lee was alive today to tie Ben Carson, the black republican Sheriff from Detroit who worships rump’s feces, and whomever that rump reality game show black female shit who marches around the White House glaring at and threatening everyone, to posts and give them a whuppin with the lash, it wouldn’t have anything to do with race.
It’s because they are malign, dumbass right wing rump republicans who mean harm to millions of Americans.
And if those snowflakes find that an offensive, politically incorrect thing to write, fuck off and bring it on, slime.
I agree wholeheartedly regarding Lee.
In normal sane times taking down Lee’s statue would be silly.
It was silly a year ago.
But if a resurgent pansy neo-confederacy 150 years after the great slaughter (I’ve toured two Civil War battlefields in recent weeks where the Union got its head handed to it. …. Chickamauga and the site adjacent to Harper’s Ferry …. and I’ve read plenty of Civil War history), who know nothing of the misery and privation this country was subjected to the first time around, and who brandish shallow racist trappings and rhetoric and fake Nazi footwork (the SS would make short work of rump’s howling pigfuckers) all the way to the White House (do you know the lives sacrificed keeping the confederate army from overtaking the White House from their lines in the forests and fields surrounding Washington D.C. during the Civil War), we will smash all of their icons, Saddam.
And more. As far as they and their widows choose to take it.
That said, General Robert E. Lee would spit on rump and his mesmerized minions and would join Lincoln and Grant to oust them from our hallowed halls of government.
Lincoln wept when his beloved brother-in-law died horribly at Harper’s Ferry — maybe it was Chickamauga; the fact escapes me now –commanding confederate troops.
Rump and his republican know nothings would smirk and tweet over a similar event in the coming Civil War II because they are insects without honor.
And by the way, if General Lee was alive today to tie Ben Carson, the black republican Sheriff from Detroit who worships rump’s feces, and whomever that rump reality game show black female shit who marches around the White House glaring at and threatening everyone, to posts and give them a whuppin with the lash, it wouldn’t have anything to do with race.
It’s because they are malign, dumbass right wing rump republicans who mean harm to millions of Americans.
And if those snowflakes find that an offensive, politically incorrect thing to write, fuck off and bring it on, slime.
Robert E Lee was redecorated and respected officer for 30 years before the war,
i’m sure he loved his dog, too. but he also lead the charge to ensure that black people should remain property.
imagine you were black and got to be reminded of that every time every time you drove to the bank.
Robert E Lee was redecorated and respected officer for 30 years before the war,
i’m sure he loved his dog, too. but he also lead the charge to ensure that black people should remain property.
imagine you were black and got to be reminded of that every time every time you drove to the bank.
The so-called black and so-called sheriff David Clarke is from Milwaukee, much the better for Detroit.
The black Lady Macbeth high stepping it around the White House is named Omarosa Manigault, which in Swahili means Shithead Who We Can Do Without.
I’m all about facticity.
The so-called black and so-called sheriff David Clarke is from Milwaukee, much the better for Detroit.
The black Lady Macbeth high stepping it around the White House is named Omarosa Manigault, which in Swahili means Shithead Who We Can Do Without.
I’m all about facticity.
Look, not for nothing, but the Lee statue in Charlottesville was commissioned in 1917 and erected in 1924.
50 or 60 years after the Civil War.
That period aligns with the re-emergence of the Klan in the south and elsewhere as a popular movement.
Revisionist history and “political correctness” is not an exclusively modern phenomenon.
It’s about freaking time we got our heads around what the Civil War as about. To try to tease slavery out of it, and pretend it was all about preserving sacred traditions of chivalry and god knows what else, is delusional. It was not freaking Ivanhoe, it was insurrection to preserve and extend an economy and way of life based on the utter subjection of entire races of human beings.
If you can see daylight between the Nazis of mid-century Europe, and the advocates of the slave economy in mid-19th C US, your eyes are better than mine.
Likewise, the legacy of nullification and the doctrine of the political sovereignty of individual states – which also goes back to Jefferson – likewise needs to be reckoned with.
Likewise, the overall doctrine of white supremacy, full stop, that is baked into our history.
Do we still want to affirm things like that? Are we bound to celebrate them, still, because they are part of our history? Are we required to respect the legacy of freaking death and calamity that goes along with them?
Or can we say, 250 years on, those things were wrong, and we prefer to no longer erect and maintain monuments to them.
The idea that white people were superior to every other kind of person was the dead normal position, at all levels of society, for most of our history. It’s still quite common. It’s wrong.
The idea that it’s right and proper for white people to own black and brown people as livestock, and breed buy and sell them for profit, and force them under threat of horrific violence to spend their entire lives doing physical labor to enrich white people, is wrong. Was wrong, is wrong.
The idea that a state government can participate in a federal polity, but reserve the right to decide what parts of federal law and governance they will and will not comply with, is wrong.
These things do not deserve celebration.
There are only a million things that white people, and southern people, and western people, and whoever else has a bug up their ass about statues of Robert E Lee, can be proud of.
Robert E Lee is not at the top of the list. He was an accomplished general, and a decent man, and when the rubber met the road he threw in with the folks who wanted to keep breeding, buying, and selling other people and making them work their lives away under threat of violence in order to enrich themselves.
So, he was wrong. Very wrong, about a very important thing.
If folks want to take his statue down, so be it. If that strikes you as foolish and petty, maybe think again. If you don’t live in Charlottesville, it ain’t your business in the first place.
Look, not for nothing, but the Lee statue in Charlottesville was commissioned in 1917 and erected in 1924.
50 or 60 years after the Civil War.
That period aligns with the re-emergence of the Klan in the south and elsewhere as a popular movement.
Revisionist history and “political correctness” is not an exclusively modern phenomenon.
It’s about freaking time we got our heads around what the Civil War as about. To try to tease slavery out of it, and pretend it was all about preserving sacred traditions of chivalry and god knows what else, is delusional. It was not freaking Ivanhoe, it was insurrection to preserve and extend an economy and way of life based on the utter subjection of entire races of human beings.
If you can see daylight between the Nazis of mid-century Europe, and the advocates of the slave economy in mid-19th C US, your eyes are better than mine.
Likewise, the legacy of nullification and the doctrine of the political sovereignty of individual states – which also goes back to Jefferson – likewise needs to be reckoned with.
Likewise, the overall doctrine of white supremacy, full stop, that is baked into our history.
Do we still want to affirm things like that? Are we bound to celebrate them, still, because they are part of our history? Are we required to respect the legacy of freaking death and calamity that goes along with them?
Or can we say, 250 years on, those things were wrong, and we prefer to no longer erect and maintain monuments to them.
The idea that white people were superior to every other kind of person was the dead normal position, at all levels of society, for most of our history. It’s still quite common. It’s wrong.
The idea that it’s right and proper for white people to own black and brown people as livestock, and breed buy and sell them for profit, and force them under threat of horrific violence to spend their entire lives doing physical labor to enrich white people, is wrong. Was wrong, is wrong.
The idea that a state government can participate in a federal polity, but reserve the right to decide what parts of federal law and governance they will and will not comply with, is wrong.
These things do not deserve celebration.
There are only a million things that white people, and southern people, and western people, and whoever else has a bug up their ass about statues of Robert E Lee, can be proud of.
Robert E Lee is not at the top of the list. He was an accomplished general, and a decent man, and when the rubber met the road he threw in with the folks who wanted to keep breeding, buying, and selling other people and making them work their lives away under threat of violence in order to enrich themselves.
So, he was wrong. Very wrong, about a very important thing.
If folks want to take his statue down, so be it. If that strikes you as foolish and petty, maybe think again. If you don’t live in Charlottesville, it ain’t your business in the first place.
Strong, cogent condemnation of the Confederate heritage fetish (my phrase) in a Crooked Timber comment. I won’t copy it verbatim, but it’s just a paragraph.
Strong, cogent condemnation of the Confederate heritage fetish (my phrase) in a Crooked Timber comment. I won’t copy it verbatim, but it’s just a paragraph.
Or, wrs.
And — the more this discussion goes on, the more I want to consider the possibility that the whole motivation of statues and monuments is suspect.
If southern heritage needs to be celebrated, find a barbecue chef to honor.
And — what do we suppose is the ratio of statues of women to statues of men, here and around the world?
At least it’s gotta be better than the male to female ratio of American presidents.
Bah.
Or, wrs.
And — the more this discussion goes on, the more I want to consider the possibility that the whole motivation of statues and monuments is suspect.
If southern heritage needs to be celebrated, find a barbecue chef to honor.
And — what do we suppose is the ratio of statues of women to statues of men, here and around the world?
At least it’s gotta be better than the male to female ratio of American presidents.
Bah.
Benedict Arnold served with distinction in the Continental Army. The Battle of Quebec, Fort Ticonderoga, Saratoga. An excellent soldier and general.
Then, he decided he had been ill-used and that he would do better working with the British. Not an unusual move at the time, loyalist sentiment was widespread. He was also not completely wrong about being ill-used.
Nevertheless, monuments to Arnold are not common. Because, when push came to shove, he decided to take up arms against the fledgling United States.
There is this, celebrating his foot injury at Saratoga. His name is, somehow, omitted from the memorial. It’s just a boot.
If folks want to erect an anonymous monument to Lee’s boot, I have no quarrel.
Benedict Arnold served with distinction in the Continental Army. The Battle of Quebec, Fort Ticonderoga, Saratoga. An excellent soldier and general.
Then, he decided he had been ill-used and that he would do better working with the British. Not an unusual move at the time, loyalist sentiment was widespread. He was also not completely wrong about being ill-used.
Nevertheless, monuments to Arnold are not common. Because, when push came to shove, he decided to take up arms against the fledgling United States.
There is this, celebrating his foot injury at Saratoga. His name is, somehow, omitted from the memorial. It’s just a boot.
If folks want to erect an anonymous monument to Lee’s boot, I have no quarrel.
Our racists and historic denialists (and misogynists!) are also in full throttle, in this case attacking the great Cambridge classicist Mary Beard for defending a cartoon showing a black paterfamilias in Roman Britain as historically accurate, against accusations of politically correct retroactive diversity:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/12/black-people-presence-in-british-history-for-centuries
Our racists and historic denialists (and misogynists!) are also in full throttle, in this case attacking the great Cambridge classicist Mary Beard for defending a cartoon showing a black paterfamilias in Roman Britain as historically accurate, against accusations of politically correct retroactive diversity:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/12/black-people-presence-in-british-history-for-centuries
Our racists and historic denialists (and misogynists!) are also in full throttle, in this case attacking the great Cambridge classicist Mary Beard for defending a cartoon showing a black paterfamilias in Roman Britain as historically accurate, against accusations of politically correct retroactive diversity:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/12/black-people-presence-in-british-history-for-centuries
Our racists and historic denialists (and misogynists!) are also in full throttle, in this case attacking the great Cambridge classicist Mary Beard for defending a cartoon showing a black paterfamilias in Roman Britain as historically accurate, against accusations of politically correct retroactive diversity:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/12/black-people-presence-in-british-history-for-centuries
GftNC — thanks for that link.
Sigh.
GftNC — thanks for that link.
Sigh.
Robert E Lee has had great PR. And I’m convinced he would have been an excellent military commander for the Union. For the Confederacy, he was a disaster.
He was also a thoroughgoing racist who treated his father-in-law’s slaves brutally.
He was not a good man. He was an honourable man, which is not the same thing, especially not after so many died for the sake of his honour.
Robert E Lee has had great PR. And I’m convinced he would have been an excellent military commander for the Union. For the Confederacy, he was a disaster.
He was also a thoroughgoing racist who treated his father-in-law’s slaves brutally.
He was not a good man. He was an honourable man, which is not the same thing, especially not after so many died for the sake of his honour.
I want to consider the possibility that the whole motivation of statues and monuments is suspect.
Well, except that “suspect” suggests that there is even the least doubt about what those statues and monuments are all about….
I want to consider the possibility that the whole motivation of statues and monuments is suspect.
Well, except that “suspect” suggests that there is even the least doubt about what those statues and monuments are all about….
there’s a park in the town i graduated high school from. there’s a little sign next to it which notes that British General Burgoyne camped his army there, on his way south to Saratoga, where Benedict Arnold & co. would eventually beat him. and even now, one of the main roads in town is Burgoyne Ave. there’s a Burgoyne Ave elementary School, too.
there is no Arnold Ave, no Arnold anything …
(not even an Arnold Lane)
…even though Arnold did more for US independence than Burgoyne ever did.
disgrace will do that.
Lee might have been remembered as a great American, if he had stayed one.
there’s a park in the town i graduated high school from. there’s a little sign next to it which notes that British General Burgoyne camped his army there, on his way south to Saratoga, where Benedict Arnold & co. would eventually beat him. and even now, one of the main roads in town is Burgoyne Ave. there’s a Burgoyne Ave elementary School, too.
there is no Arnold Ave, no Arnold anything …
(not even an Arnold Lane)
…even though Arnold did more for US independence than Burgoyne ever did.
disgrace will do that.
Lee might have been remembered as a great American, if he had stayed one.
also: this isn’t about Lee.
this is about the simple fact that the white supremacists are thrilled with Trump’s America and now feel empowered to kill their political opponents.
this is what the GOP brought us.
and that’s why it needs to be burned down.
also: this isn’t about Lee.
this is about the simple fact that the white supremacists are thrilled with Trump’s America and now feel empowered to kill their political opponents.
this is what the GOP brought us.
and that’s why it needs to be burned down.
I know it’s not about Lee, it was more of an aside.
After all, Trump is at least a coward, and that makes him a racist either way. Its the reason I hate him, since the first time he ducked the Duke question. But how many ways can one say that?
I know it’s not about Lee, it was more of an aside.
After all, Trump is at least a coward, and that makes him a racist either way. Its the reason I hate him, since the first time he ducked the Duke question. But how many ways can one say that?
Back to GftNC’s link — I went looking for more on the Taleb vs. Beard nexus and ended up skimming this.
It is utterly befuddling. I have heard of Taleb, even bought one of his books once (and then never read it, and donated it to the library book sale), but I don’t know that much about him. Now I want to say: WTF is his problem that he wants to display himself as such a flaming asshole for all of us to see?
Which is only the second question of the sort, not the first, that’s triggered for me by the article at the link.
It’s very easy, as an American, to sit here and say okay, one of the foundation stones of our nation was the enslavement of people from Africa, and their descendants. Our original sin is embedded in our revered founding document, and maybe we will never recover from that. We fought a war over it, but though the shooting war ended, the cultural war never did.
And for me, if I’m thinking casually about racism in America, everything else follows.
But being taken out of my American framework by this BBC cartoon kerfuffle forces me to think a little harder outside the usual box.
Even outside my usual box, though, my next set of thoughts is a lot like all my others: WTF is the matter with these people? I mean, literally. As in: doesn’t this kind of obsession with racial purity (“don’t tell me Britain has always been at least a little bit diverse, nyah nyah I’m plugging my ears so I can’t hear you, and by the way you’re a horrible person”) imply a deep insecurity about one’s own place in the world?
I suppose you could say that for some white English people it’s like the way it is for some white Americans: earlier generations of the latter got to be top dog when there was slavery, and earlier generations of the former got to be top dog when there was an empire. And somehow, they’ve passed on to their descendants the deep wound of not being able to be top dog anymore, and that wound is kept festering by a well-fed fear that the hated “other” will displace them.
I want to say I don’t get it, but the worst thing is that I sort of do: it’s part of human nature to be susceptible to hatred of an “other.” But geez, can’t we do better than this by this time?
I guess not.
/rant
or more accurately
/lament
Back to GftNC’s link — I went looking for more on the Taleb vs. Beard nexus and ended up skimming this.
It is utterly befuddling. I have heard of Taleb, even bought one of his books once (and then never read it, and donated it to the library book sale), but I don’t know that much about him. Now I want to say: WTF is his problem that he wants to display himself as such a flaming asshole for all of us to see?
Which is only the second question of the sort, not the first, that’s triggered for me by the article at the link.
It’s very easy, as an American, to sit here and say okay, one of the foundation stones of our nation was the enslavement of people from Africa, and their descendants. Our original sin is embedded in our revered founding document, and maybe we will never recover from that. We fought a war over it, but though the shooting war ended, the cultural war never did.
And for me, if I’m thinking casually about racism in America, everything else follows.
But being taken out of my American framework by this BBC cartoon kerfuffle forces me to think a little harder outside the usual box.
Even outside my usual box, though, my next set of thoughts is a lot like all my others: WTF is the matter with these people? I mean, literally. As in: doesn’t this kind of obsession with racial purity (“don’t tell me Britain has always been at least a little bit diverse, nyah nyah I’m plugging my ears so I can’t hear you, and by the way you’re a horrible person”) imply a deep insecurity about one’s own place in the world?
I suppose you could say that for some white English people it’s like the way it is for some white Americans: earlier generations of the latter got to be top dog when there was slavery, and earlier generations of the former got to be top dog when there was an empire. And somehow, they’ve passed on to their descendants the deep wound of not being able to be top dog anymore, and that wound is kept festering by a well-fed fear that the hated “other” will displace them.
I want to say I don’t get it, but the worst thing is that I sort of do: it’s part of human nature to be susceptible to hatred of an “other.” But geez, can’t we do better than this by this time?
I guess not.
/rant
or more accurately
/lament
i think you got it covered.
i think you got it covered.
fwiw, my take on trump and racism is:
he believes that some people have special genes, and are inherently superior to lesser mortals. those people are named trump.
there might be other folks with special genes, too. you can tell them by their bank accounts.
fwiw, my take on trump and racism is:
he believes that some people have special genes, and are inherently superior to lesser mortals. those people are named trump.
there might be other folks with special genes, too. you can tell them by their bank accounts.
don’t tell me Britain has always been at least a little bit diverse
The ethnic identity that anglophiles get all fired up about – Anglo-Saxon, Norman – had no significant presence in the British Isles in the Roman period. Angles, Saxons, and Jutes came after the Romans, Normans another 5 or 6 hundred years after that.
The indigenous people of Roman Britain – including the Britons – were primarily Celts.
if the color of an occupying governor’s skin slmost 2000 years ago, before the people you identify with even existed as a nation, gets your knickers in a twist, you need to take a step back and check your head.
don’t tell me Britain has always been at least a little bit diverse
The ethnic identity that anglophiles get all fired up about – Anglo-Saxon, Norman – had no significant presence in the British Isles in the Roman period. Angles, Saxons, and Jutes came after the Romans, Normans another 5 or 6 hundred years after that.
The indigenous people of Roman Britain – including the Britons – were primarily Celts.
if the color of an occupying governor’s skin slmost 2000 years ago, before the people you identify with even existed as a nation, gets your knickers in a twist, you need to take a step back and check your head.
russell, you’re leaving out the (somewhat amusing) antics of one “Robbie the Pict”.
The Neanderthals have a bone to pick with all us Johnny-come-latelies, you betcha.
russell, you’re leaving out the (somewhat amusing) antics of one “Robbie the Pict”.
The Neanderthals have a bone to pick with all us Johnny-come-latelies, you betcha.
WRS and what JanieM said. And as for Taleb, you took the words right out of my mouth, except I said arsehole. Also, astounding that he clearly has no idea how bad this makes him look, to anybody but racist, misogynist thugs. I mean, some people clearly have no insight into how they come across (Trump), but Taleb is supposed to be a brilliant guy, from what I remember. Ah well, a useful corrective to the notion that raw brainpower equals any other desirable kind of intelligence.
WRS and what JanieM said. And as for Taleb, you took the words right out of my mouth, except I said arsehole. Also, astounding that he clearly has no idea how bad this makes him look, to anybody but racist, misogynist thugs. I mean, some people clearly have no insight into how they come across (Trump), but Taleb is supposed to be a brilliant guy, from what I remember. Ah well, a useful corrective to the notion that raw brainpower equals any other desirable kind of intelligence.
He, Trump is Archie Bunker with more money, worse taste, and much less human decency. ITMFA.
Marty: … I hate him, since the first time he ducked the Duke question. But how many ways can one say that?
Lots of ways that amount to bupkis, and a few ways to say it at the ballot box. In particular, unless the next Republican you think of voting for unequivocally supports impeaching the Birther in Chief, vote for the Democrat in the race.
JanieM: Now I want to say: WTF is his problem that he wants to display himself as such a flaming asshole for all of us to see?
I once asked a kibbitzer at the late lamented chess tables in Harvard Square: “Pardon me, sir. Are you an asshole, or do you just act like one?”
Some people have poison ivy. We can see the rash; we can feel sorry for them; but we would scorn an exhortation to “come together” with them until they’re cured. Other people have poison ivy of the soul. Not visible to the naked eye, unless they choose to reveal it. It’s hard to feel sorry for them if they don’t reveal it, and hard if they do. The ethically crippled feel entitled to an Americans with Moral Disabilities Act. Some of them apparently think that He, Trump’s presidency is an adequate substitute.
–TP
He, Trump is Archie Bunker with more money, worse taste, and much less human decency. ITMFA.
Marty: … I hate him, since the first time he ducked the Duke question. But how many ways can one say that?
Lots of ways that amount to bupkis, and a few ways to say it at the ballot box. In particular, unless the next Republican you think of voting for unequivocally supports impeaching the Birther in Chief, vote for the Democrat in the race.
JanieM: Now I want to say: WTF is his problem that he wants to display himself as such a flaming asshole for all of us to see?
I once asked a kibbitzer at the late lamented chess tables in Harvard Square: “Pardon me, sir. Are you an asshole, or do you just act like one?”
Some people have poison ivy. We can see the rash; we can feel sorry for them; but we would scorn an exhortation to “come together” with them until they’re cured. Other people have poison ivy of the soul. Not visible to the naked eye, unless they choose to reveal it. It’s hard to feel sorry for them if they don’t reveal it, and hard if they do. The ethically crippled feel entitled to an Americans with Moral Disabilities Act. Some of them apparently think that He, Trump’s presidency is an adequate substitute.
–TP
“I hate him, since the first time he ducked the Duke question. But how many ways can one say that?”
It is somewhat amusing to apply the Shapir-Whorf Hypothesis to the number of ways one can say “stupid” in English.
And yet, I don’t think English is particularly exceptional in that regard.
“I hate him, since the first time he ducked the Duke question. But how many ways can one say that?”
It is somewhat amusing to apply the Shapir-Whorf Hypothesis to the number of ways one can say “stupid” in English.
And yet, I don’t think English is particularly exceptional in that regard.
I’ve broken bread with Taleb, back when he was a finance guy. I think it fair to say that he thinks there are only a few people who’s academic opinion is worth listening to (Benoit Mandelbrot was one). And he enjoys expressing his disdain for the rest of us.
I’ve broken bread with Taleb, back when he was a finance guy. I think it fair to say that he thinks there are only a few people who’s academic opinion is worth listening to (Benoit Mandelbrot was one). And he enjoys expressing his disdain for the rest of us.
And he enjoys expressing his disdain for the rest of us.
Part of me wants to say: must be kind of lonely up there in the stratosphere.
The other part of me says: I’ve known a few people sort of like this in real life, and they’re not the least bit lonely, at least not to any depth that’s ever likely to get plumbed.
And that’s the end of my amateur psychoanalysis for today. To paraphrase (and transpose to a different frame) what a Maine state legislator once said in announcing that he was voting in favor of gay marriage despite the fact that his church wouldn’t be happy about it: “I can’t go around trying to judge other people’s sins, I’ve got enough of my own to worry about.”
And he enjoys expressing his disdain for the rest of us.
Part of me wants to say: must be kind of lonely up there in the stratosphere.
The other part of me says: I’ve known a few people sort of like this in real life, and they’re not the least bit lonely, at least not to any depth that’s ever likely to get plumbed.
And that’s the end of my amateur psychoanalysis for today. To paraphrase (and transpose to a different frame) what a Maine state legislator once said in announcing that he was voting in favor of gay marriage despite the fact that his church wouldn’t be happy about it: “I can’t go around trying to judge other people’s sins, I’ve got enough of my own to worry about.”
russell, you’re leaving out the (somewhat amusing) antics of one “Robbie the Pict”.
LOL
when my wife and I were in france in ’14, we became acquainted with the adventures of Asterix the Gaul.
the neanderthals are of continuing interest to me. not the same as homo sapiens, but the same enough that they could exchange dna, i.e. intermarry (for whatever definition of marriage applied) and have kids.
no such population now.
i always wonder what they contributed to us, in all kinds of ways.
we all have our “if i could go back in time” fantasies, one of mine would be to go to the south of what is now france, about 45,000 years ago.
note to self: don’t forget to bring a towel!
russell, you’re leaving out the (somewhat amusing) antics of one “Robbie the Pict”.
LOL
when my wife and I were in france in ’14, we became acquainted with the adventures of Asterix the Gaul.
the neanderthals are of continuing interest to me. not the same as homo sapiens, but the same enough that they could exchange dna, i.e. intermarry (for whatever definition of marriage applied) and have kids.
no such population now.
i always wonder what they contributed to us, in all kinds of ways.
we all have our “if i could go back in time” fantasies, one of mine would be to go to the south of what is now france, about 45,000 years ago.
note to self: don’t forget to bring a towel!
Who cares about the actual natives? The only people of true significance are the ones coming in and taking the land away from them thus proving their superiority. Therefore (white) Romans, Anglo-Saxons (to a lesser degree) and Normans are what counts (cf. the treatment of the Celtic Irish). The Spaniards in America are what the (original) Anglo-Saxons were, a lesser race of conquerors preparing the field for the true (and fully white) masters.
Seen that way it makes all sense, doesn’t it?
[/irony]
Who cares about the actual natives? The only people of true significance are the ones coming in and taking the land away from them thus proving their superiority. Therefore (white) Romans, Anglo-Saxons (to a lesser degree) and Normans are what counts (cf. the treatment of the Celtic Irish). The Spaniards in America are what the (original) Anglo-Saxons were, a lesser race of conquerors preparing the field for the true (and fully white) masters.
Seen that way it makes all sense, doesn’t it?
[/irony]
JanieM, yup, I do think some of it here is a nostalgia for when the sun never set over the British Empire, and it was a truth universally recognised that “to be born an Englishman is to win first prize in the lottery of life”. I agree it is a sign of deep inadequacy and feelings of insecurity, but unfortunately that doesn’t make it easier to deal with, or its proponents easier to tolerate when they spew their hatred and bigotry.
JanieM, yup, I do think some of it here is a nostalgia for when the sun never set over the British Empire, and it was a truth universally recognised that “to be born an Englishman is to win first prize in the lottery of life”. I agree it is a sign of deep inadequacy and feelings of insecurity, but unfortunately that doesn’t make it easier to deal with, or its proponents easier to tolerate when they spew their hatred and bigotry.
I’m confused as well – isn’t Taleb an American ?
Whatever… he’s certainly no historian.
I’m confused as well – isn’t Taleb an American ?
Whatever… he’s certainly no historian.
For purists there have been just 2 real historians in the whole history of mankind (even rarer than true Scotsmen). 😉
For purists there have been just 2 real historians in the whole history of mankind (even rarer than true Scotsmen). 😉
About Lee, this is worth rereading.
Who cares about the actual natives?
During the Civil War, a majority of Charlottesville’s population were African-American (which was true until the 1890s), and it’s difficult to imagine that Lee was a hero to them. I’m not sure in what way Lee represents Charlottesville at all, other than the fact that the statue itself was a gift from Charlottesville native Paul Goodloe McIntire (born in 1860), and was erected in 1924, at a time when the Ku Klux Klan was resurgent (three years before Donald Trump’s father was arrested in a Klan riot in New York), and Lost Cause nostalgia was at a peak.
It’s interesting how, all along, fake news has persuaded white supremacists that they have a claim to history.
About Lee, this is worth rereading.
Who cares about the actual natives?
During the Civil War, a majority of Charlottesville’s population were African-American (which was true until the 1890s), and it’s difficult to imagine that Lee was a hero to them. I’m not sure in what way Lee represents Charlottesville at all, other than the fact that the statue itself was a gift from Charlottesville native Paul Goodloe McIntire (born in 1860), and was erected in 1924, at a time when the Ku Klux Klan was resurgent (three years before Donald Trump’s father was arrested in a Klan riot in New York), and Lost Cause nostalgia was at a peak.
It’s interesting how, all along, fake news has persuaded white supremacists that they have a claim to history.
WTF is the matter with these people?
Something that has always jumped out at me about people active in hate groups like the KKK or Neo-Nazis is what I see as wasted energy. So much emotional, mental, and physical energy is put into something that is so pointless. Of all the things you can spend your life doing, this is what they choose. It’s idiotic.
WTF is the matter with these people?
Something that has always jumped out at me about people active in hate groups like the KKK or Neo-Nazis is what I see as wasted energy. So much emotional, mental, and physical energy is put into something that is so pointless. Of all the things you can spend your life doing, this is what they choose. It’s idiotic.
Maybe not so much idiotic as an (unconscious?) recognition that they are incapable of succeeding at much of anything else. (At least, not without artificially handicapping everyone else.) So, a rare flash of reality on their part?
Maybe not so much idiotic as an (unconscious?) recognition that they are incapable of succeeding at much of anything else. (At least, not without artificially handicapping everyone else.) So, a rare flash of reality on their part?
well, it’s certainly a shock that the president of the U Wash. college Republicans was one of the racist ‘protesters’.
just. so. shocking.
well, it’s certainly a shock that the president of the U Wash. college Republicans was one of the racist ‘protesters’.
just. so. shocking.
Washington State, the artist formerly known as cleek.
Washington State, the artist formerly known as cleek.
yes. that one.
even still: so shocking.
yes. that one.
even still: so shocking.
I’ll accept, on behalf of “The Left,” ownership of college SJWs and safe-spacers, with their fears of micro-aggressions, if “The Right” will take ownership of white-supremacist college Republicans.
Whaddya say, The Right? Deal?
I’ll accept, on behalf of “The Left,” ownership of college SJWs and safe-spacers, with their fears of micro-aggressions, if “The Right” will take ownership of white-supremacist college Republicans.
Whaddya say, The Right? Deal?
Seems like a fair proposition to me, hsh. But then again, I’m not your target audience.
Seems like a fair proposition to me, hsh. But then again, I’m not your target audience.
But seriously, I hope to God there are fewer actual white supremacist Republican college students, than micro-aggressed safe-spacers. But maybe I’ve been got at by the rightwing noise machine?
But seriously, I hope to God there are fewer actual white supremacist Republican college students, than micro-aggressed safe-spacers. But maybe I’ve been got at by the rightwing noise machine?
HSH, not sure who you are addressing as “The Right.” Because if you think that any of the conservatives here have the least use for that kind of scum . . . then you haven’t been paying attention.
HSH, not sure who you are addressing as “The Right.” Because if you think that any of the conservatives here have the least use for that kind of scum . . . then you haven’t been paying attention.
I hope to God there are fewer actual white supremacist Republican college students, than micro-aggressed safe-spacers.
Exclude “Republican college students”, and the white supremacists win in a walk.
Sez I.
I hope to God there are fewer actual white supremacist Republican college students, than micro-aggressed safe-spacers.
Exclude “Republican college students”, and the white supremacists win in a walk.
Sez I.
Jesus! We’re not talking about common-or-garden (our garden-variety) racists, we are talking about actual white supremacists a la KKK et al. Do you really think so russell?
Jesus! We’re not talking about common-or-garden (our garden-variety) racists, we are talking about actual white supremacists a la KKK et al. Do you really think so russell?
can we call them deplorable yet?
can we call them deplorable yet?
father to son:
father to son:
“can we call them deplorable yet?”
TOO SOON!
“can we call them deplorable yet?”
TOO SOON!
Peter Tefft is doing something very difficult. Good for him.
Peter Tefft is doing something very difficult. Good for him.
HSH, not sure who you are addressing as “The Right.” Because if you think that any of the conservatives here have the least use for that kind of scum . . . then you haven’t been paying attention.
I’m addressing anyone who thinks in those terms and who would blame “The Left” for the silly things some liberal college kids do. I’ll gladly accept those kids as members of my political tribe if they’ll take on the white-supremacist college Republicans. Of couse, it’s only satire.
HSH, not sure who you are addressing as “The Right.” Because if you think that any of the conservatives here have the least use for that kind of scum . . . then you haven’t been paying attention.
I’m addressing anyone who thinks in those terms and who would blame “The Left” for the silly things some liberal college kids do. I’ll gladly accept those kids as members of my political tribe if they’ll take on the white-supremacist college Republicans. Of couse, it’s only satire.
russell: Exclude “Republican college students”, and the white supremacists win in a walk.
Given the way GftNC’s question was phrased I’m not sure, but based on her reaction and my own guesses, I’m reading this to mean you think there are lots more “white supremacists” than there are “micro-agressed safe spacers.”
That would be scare me if I believed it, but I’m not convinced. I have offspring who were in school not all that long ago, and at one place I could name (but won’t, for privacy purposes), the “micro-aggressed safe spacers” set the tone vocally, aggressively, and very explicitly in terms of ideas like “micro-aggression,” “triggering,” “check your privilege,” etc.
But I’m sure it depends on the part of the country you’re in, the local campus culture, etc.
russell: Exclude “Republican college students”, and the white supremacists win in a walk.
Given the way GftNC’s question was phrased I’m not sure, but based on her reaction and my own guesses, I’m reading this to mean you think there are lots more “white supremacists” than there are “micro-agressed safe spacers.”
That would be scare me if I believed it, but I’m not convinced. I have offspring who were in school not all that long ago, and at one place I could name (but won’t, for privacy purposes), the “micro-aggressed safe spacers” set the tone vocally, aggressively, and very explicitly in terms of ideas like “micro-aggression,” “triggering,” “check your privilege,” etc.
But I’m sure it depends on the part of the country you’re in, the local campus culture, etc.
Sapient, I’m pretty sure you mean Pearce Tefft, the father, who wrote that letter. And not Peter Tefft, the son.
Sapient, I’m pretty sure you mean Pearce Tefft, the father, who wrote that letter. And not Peter Tefft, the son.
Do you really think so russell?
hell yeah
That would be scare me if I believed it, but I’m not convinced
I believe it.
It doesn’t scare me as much as it makes me think I need to get myself ready to deal.
woodwork squeaks and out come the freaks. happens every now and then, these people never eally go away, they just hide until it’s safe for them to show themselves.
well, it’s safe for them to show themselves again, so the rest of us are obliged to make it clear that their way of thinking is not acceptable.
most likely, some more people will get hurt. it’s apparently not quite bad enough yet for anyone in a position to do something about it to actually get off their asses and act.
white supremacists have been killing people for years. hundreds of years, really, but the most recent batch have demonstrated a willingness to be just as deadly as their forbears.
the doctrine of white supremacy, and the practice of expressing that through deadly force, is one of most consistent threads in US history. the latest crop af @ssholes are just SSDD.
so yes, I think that there are more of these knuckle-dragging boneheads than all of the campus safe-place folks put together.
there are more of them, they are a greater menace, they are more violent, they intend greater harm, they have more money, they have a bigger voice and presence, they have more friends in positions of influence.
they are 1,000 times more likely to kill people, including you and me.
they’ll take as much as they can get, so they must be given not one inch.
Do you really think so russell?
hell yeah
That would be scare me if I believed it, but I’m not convinced
I believe it.
It doesn’t scare me as much as it makes me think I need to get myself ready to deal.
woodwork squeaks and out come the freaks. happens every now and then, these people never eally go away, they just hide until it’s safe for them to show themselves.
well, it’s safe for them to show themselves again, so the rest of us are obliged to make it clear that their way of thinking is not acceptable.
most likely, some more people will get hurt. it’s apparently not quite bad enough yet for anyone in a position to do something about it to actually get off their asses and act.
white supremacists have been killing people for years. hundreds of years, really, but the most recent batch have demonstrated a willingness to be just as deadly as their forbears.
the doctrine of white supremacy, and the practice of expressing that through deadly force, is one of most consistent threads in US history. the latest crop af @ssholes are just SSDD.
so yes, I think that there are more of these knuckle-dragging boneheads than all of the campus safe-place folks put together.
there are more of them, they are a greater menace, they are more violent, they intend greater harm, they have more money, they have a bigger voice and presence, they have more friends in positions of influence.
they are 1,000 times more likely to kill people, including you and me.
they’ll take as much as they can get, so they must be given not one inch.
JanieM, exactly right.
JanieM, exactly right.
Sapient, I’m pretty sure you mean Pearce Tefft, the father, who wrote that letter. And not Peter Tefft, the son.
Yes. Thanks, wj.
Sapient, I’m pretty sure you mean Pearce Tefft, the father, who wrote that letter. And not Peter Tefft, the son.
Yes. Thanks, wj.
Data points: the Alexa page for Stormfront.
450,000 unique visitors a month. People have been murdered by Stormfront subscribers.
They’ve been around for over 20 years.
Apparently, Reddit has surpassed Stormfront in virulence. Which is fairly big lift.
Data points: the Alexa page for Stormfront.
450,000 unique visitors a month. People have been murdered by Stormfront subscribers.
They’ve been around for over 20 years.
Apparently, Reddit has surpassed Stormfront in virulence. Which is fairly big lift.
They’ve been around for over 20 years.
I can attest to that. In my early days of net-surfing, I was looking for info on Moorish Spain. I didn’t know what Stormfront was. Really, I’m not even sure if I was paying attention to the name of the site. I was just clicking on whatever hits my search produced.
At any rate, it started off like what seemed like a fairly good high-level history of Moorish Spain, but as I got further into it, it started getting weird – discussing how the purity of Spanish bloodlines had been tainted by African DNA. This is what explained why the Spanish colonial empire didn’t get as large or last as long as that of the British, and why Spain didn’t last as a major world power.
That’s when I thought to myself, “What the fnck kind of site am I on here?” Yep – Stormfront. This was 1997, when I was working just outside Rochester, NY.
They’ve been around for over 20 years.
I can attest to that. In my early days of net-surfing, I was looking for info on Moorish Spain. I didn’t know what Stormfront was. Really, I’m not even sure if I was paying attention to the name of the site. I was just clicking on whatever hits my search produced.
At any rate, it started off like what seemed like a fairly good high-level history of Moorish Spain, but as I got further into it, it started getting weird – discussing how the purity of Spanish bloodlines had been tainted by African DNA. This is what explained why the Spanish colonial empire didn’t get as large or last as long as that of the British, and why Spain didn’t last as a major world power.
That’s when I thought to myself, “What the fnck kind of site am I on here?” Yep – Stormfront. This was 1997, when I was working just outside Rochester, NY.
Some folks pulled down a confederate monument in Durham NC. No permit, no process, they just wanted it down, so it’s down.
Perhaps oddly, at a gut reaction level, I’m not sure that was a good idea. One thing if the community gets together and decides, another if a bunch of folks just decide to do it.
I think.
It’s getting confusing. Glad nobody got hurt.
My wife and I will be attending the Boston Free Speech Rally, which is sponsored by the guy who sponsored the Charlottesville rally. We’ll be there as protestors.
They had the same rally in May, it was apparently kind of a sad affair. Don’t know if this Saturday will have more juice, or less.
The “Proud Boys” guy has backed out, it seems the fact that somebody was freaking murdered in C’ville has created some discomfort for him. Apparently, to be a “Proud Boy” you have to recite the name of five breakfast cereals while some current Proud Boys beat the crap out of you. Then go get in a fight with an antifas, which is probably not that hard to do.
His pal, Kyle “Based Stick Man” (??) Chapman, leader of the Fraternal Order of Alt Knights, which apparently is some kind of Breitbart Fight Club, is still on the agenda.
Tim “Baked Alaska” Gionet, too.
At least they have a sense of humor. Or, appear to. Our Nazis are funny Nazis!
It’d be a great prank if folks weren’t getting killed and hospitalized.
In any case, we’ll see what happens. They apparently haven’t pulled permits yet – the rally is being organized by a 17-year-old kid from Peabody – so who knows if it will even come off.
In any case I’ve ordered some lab goggles for my wife and I in case the pepper spray flies. Z87+ of course. Bandanas, long sleeve shirts, closed toe boots (motorcycle boots for me).
It don’t think it will be like C’ville, because the Boston cops don’t really put up with that sh*t — in May they kept everybody a football field or so apart —
but apparently these are the things you have to pay attention to if you want to show up, nowadays.
Crazy times. Again.
Some folks pulled down a confederate monument in Durham NC. No permit, no process, they just wanted it down, so it’s down.
Perhaps oddly, at a gut reaction level, I’m not sure that was a good idea. One thing if the community gets together and decides, another if a bunch of folks just decide to do it.
I think.
It’s getting confusing. Glad nobody got hurt.
My wife and I will be attending the Boston Free Speech Rally, which is sponsored by the guy who sponsored the Charlottesville rally. We’ll be there as protestors.
They had the same rally in May, it was apparently kind of a sad affair. Don’t know if this Saturday will have more juice, or less.
The “Proud Boys” guy has backed out, it seems the fact that somebody was freaking murdered in C’ville has created some discomfort for him. Apparently, to be a “Proud Boy” you have to recite the name of five breakfast cereals while some current Proud Boys beat the crap out of you. Then go get in a fight with an antifas, which is probably not that hard to do.
His pal, Kyle “Based Stick Man” (??) Chapman, leader of the Fraternal Order of Alt Knights, which apparently is some kind of Breitbart Fight Club, is still on the agenda.
Tim “Baked Alaska” Gionet, too.
At least they have a sense of humor. Or, appear to. Our Nazis are funny Nazis!
It’d be a great prank if folks weren’t getting killed and hospitalized.
In any case, we’ll see what happens. They apparently haven’t pulled permits yet – the rally is being organized by a 17-year-old kid from Peabody – so who knows if it will even come off.
In any case I’ve ordered some lab goggles for my wife and I in case the pepper spray flies. Z87+ of course. Bandanas, long sleeve shirts, closed toe boots (motorcycle boots for me).
It don’t think it will be like C’ville, because the Boston cops don’t really put up with that sh*t — in May they kept everybody a football field or so apart —
but apparently these are the things you have to pay attention to if you want to show up, nowadays.
Crazy times. Again.
LOL.
More dropouts, including “Augustus Invictus” (!?!?). The organizers actually asked him not to come because of his public comments about wanting a second Civil War.
He’s pissed that the organizers are capitulating to a mob of leftists.
I’d say there goes $25 down the drain (cost of two pairs of shop goggles) but the way things are going I’ll probably get to use them again.
And I’m seriously going to start going by Brother Neutron Bomb of Kindly Thoughts. No reason the Nazis should have all the entertaining names.
LOL.
More dropouts, including “Augustus Invictus” (!?!?). The organizers actually asked him not to come because of his public comments about wanting a second Civil War.
He’s pissed that the organizers are capitulating to a mob of leftists.
I’d say there goes $25 down the drain (cost of two pairs of shop goggles) but the way things are going I’ll probably get to use them again.
And I’m seriously going to start going by Brother Neutron Bomb of Kindly Thoughts. No reason the Nazis should have all the entertaining names.
so yes, I think that there are more of these knuckle-dragging boneheads than all of the campus safe-place folks put together
Well russell, I have a great deal of respect for your opinions, so I find this horrifying. I see from your Alexa link that of the approximately 450,000 unique visitors a month Stormfront has, approximately half of them are from the US. I wonder how many visit Reddit et al but not Stormfront? In other words, I wonder what is a reasonable estimate of the total numbers. I have been in the habit of thinking these people a terrible, but tiny, minority, so I’m looking for crumbs of comfort. I just hope you’re wrong, but I applaud your and your wife’s willingness to stand up. You are living the truth, as everybody should, of the famous Burke (or Mill!) maxim: All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
so yes, I think that there are more of these knuckle-dragging boneheads than all of the campus safe-place folks put together
Well russell, I have a great deal of respect for your opinions, so I find this horrifying. I see from your Alexa link that of the approximately 450,000 unique visitors a month Stormfront has, approximately half of them are from the US. I wonder how many visit Reddit et al but not Stormfront? In other words, I wonder what is a reasonable estimate of the total numbers. I have been in the habit of thinking these people a terrible, but tiny, minority, so I’m looking for crumbs of comfort. I just hope you’re wrong, but I applaud your and your wife’s willingness to stand up. You are living the truth, as everybody should, of the famous Burke (or Mill!) maxim: All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
225,000 unique US visitors also includes thousands of people who go there to see what is there, like people here watching Fox News shows. Even if there are 150,000 regulars that is an extremely small number compared to almost any other group in the US. Less than a tenth of a percent of the population. KKK membership is something less than 10k, some estimates as low as 3000.
There is a very small number of white supremacists in the US, fewer Nazi’s, the Klan just barely exists.
The official estimates aside, imo, the problem is the people who agree with them on particular things they protest, helps them justify the organizations existence.
Also, the SPLC, iirc, has the total number of hate groups still below 2011 levels, so granting a large increase in new anti Muslim groups, there are still an infinitesmally small number of violent racists in the US.
225,000 unique US visitors also includes thousands of people who go there to see what is there, like people here watching Fox News shows. Even if there are 150,000 regulars that is an extremely small number compared to almost any other group in the US. Less than a tenth of a percent of the population. KKK membership is something less than 10k, some estimates as low as 3000.
There is a very small number of white supremacists in the US, fewer Nazi’s, the Klan just barely exists.
The official estimates aside, imo, the problem is the people who agree with them on particular things they protest, helps them justify the organizations existence.
Also, the SPLC, iirc, has the total number of hate groups still below 2011 levels, so granting a large increase in new anti Muslim groups, there are still an infinitesmally small number of violent racists in the US.
“Our Nazis are funny Nazis”
Go get it Russell. I’ve always said the American Apocalypse that will engulf the world will be accompanied by a laugh track. Why do we think the Right in this country is always smirking as they formulate their murderous policies, malicious encyclicals, and sadistic threats.
Have we noticed Putin has the same smirk as our republican nasties when he buries the shiv.
Carrying out cleek’s law wouldn’t be any fun for them without some cackling and chair-swiveling to go with the eye-poking. The coming mushroom clouds they hanker to unleash will feature the most knee-slapping since Slim Pickens rode the bomb down in Dr. Strangelove.
I’m heading downtown today in NYC. Noticed Rump Lair was surrounded by white garbage trucks according to the tabloids on the newsstand yesterday. I’m going to swing by and do a little evil eye vigil outside the joint, examine the architecture for vulnerabilities and the surrounding area for tunneling possibilities.
It’s a little high rent for my and the Secret Service’s tastes.
Those white garbage trucks will be employed soon to take out the white garbage now infesting the structure.
Then it will be time to fumigate the rest of the country of the bugs that have crawled up its fundament.
“Our Nazis are funny Nazis”
Go get it Russell. I’ve always said the American Apocalypse that will engulf the world will be accompanied by a laugh track. Why do we think the Right in this country is always smirking as they formulate their murderous policies, malicious encyclicals, and sadistic threats.
Have we noticed Putin has the same smirk as our republican nasties when he buries the shiv.
Carrying out cleek’s law wouldn’t be any fun for them without some cackling and chair-swiveling to go with the eye-poking. The coming mushroom clouds they hanker to unleash will feature the most knee-slapping since Slim Pickens rode the bomb down in Dr. Strangelove.
I’m heading downtown today in NYC. Noticed Rump Lair was surrounded by white garbage trucks according to the tabloids on the newsstand yesterday. I’m going to swing by and do a little evil eye vigil outside the joint, examine the architecture for vulnerabilities and the surrounding area for tunneling possibilities.
It’s a little high rent for my and the Secret Service’s tastes.
Those white garbage trucks will be employed soon to take out the white garbage now infesting the structure.
Then it will be time to fumigate the rest of the country of the bugs that have crawled up its fundament.
there are still an infinitesmally small number of violent racists in the US.
This stuff exists on a spectrum.
Probably low thousands of active Klan members. Although about half of the KKK clans in existence have been formed in the last three years.
Nut-jobs like Christian Identity, skinheads, doctrinaire white nationalists, etc., probably low thousands apiece.
All in all, maybe – what – 50 thousand hard-ass violent white supremacists, nationwide. A very small percent of the population, and a hell of a lot of people who are, as a matter of principle, more than happy to kill blacks, browns, Jews, immigrants, gays and lesbians, or just whoever shows up and gets in their way.
Moving beyond that, we have the new generation of fucking lost boys who like to dress up and play Nazi, and who like to punk the normies with ironic fascist bullshit. These folks are the Gavin McInnes’ and Nathan Damigos of the world. People who find some kind of affirmation in being part of a group of fellow smart-ass white thugs. Some of these folks aren’t violent, a lot of them are. Numbers in terms of folks who will actually show up and beat other people up is probably low thousands.
Folks who don’t actually put their asses in the street and just like to play Nazi on the internet for lulz is probably hundreds of thousands. Stormfront claims 300K subscribers, which means active members is probably a tenth of that. Which is 30K. Breitbart, Reddit, and god knows what other collection of thwarted loser tough guy wanna-be asshole websites.
Those numbers are hundreds of thousands.
Moving on from there, we get to folks like my sister and brother in law, who circulate articles from Pat Buchanan about how the blacks should be grateful they were enslaved, because the food was better and they got to hear about Jesus. Or the dudes I work with a couple of times a year who spend band break time talking about how the Jews are really the cause of all the problems in the world.
Basically, people who aren’t actually going to go beat anybody up, because that’s too much work, and they’re too nice to do something like that, but who don’t really give two shits if cops shoot black kids, or Jewish cemeteries are vandalized, or if people trying to sneak into the country are held without bail or legal review for months or years because they’re illegal dammit.
Now you’re probably talking about a third of the population.
Which is why the thousands or tens of thousands of dudes who are actually making plans to kill people, and the hundreds of thousands of assholes living in their mom’s basement who think it’s hilarious to harrass denigrate and degrade other humans, are a problem.
The doctrine of white supremacy is baked into our history and culture. It’s a fucking cancer, and we’re not even close to being done with it yet.
Tens of thousands of people who fervently believe that it is correct, appropriate, and in fact their sacred duty to eliminate people who are not white protestant christians from the territory of the United States is a f**k of a lot of people.
Hundreds of thousands of people who think it’s cool to dabble in Nazi, neo-Confederate, and other fascist ideologies and regalia is a f**k of a lot of people.
A hundred million people who don’t give a crap if blacks, browns, Jews, and whatever other basket of undesirables you care to mention take it in the neck is really a f**k of a lot of people.
We are not talking infinitesimal.
there are still an infinitesmally small number of violent racists in the US.
This stuff exists on a spectrum.
Probably low thousands of active Klan members. Although about half of the KKK clans in existence have been formed in the last three years.
Nut-jobs like Christian Identity, skinheads, doctrinaire white nationalists, etc., probably low thousands apiece.
All in all, maybe – what – 50 thousand hard-ass violent white supremacists, nationwide. A very small percent of the population, and a hell of a lot of people who are, as a matter of principle, more than happy to kill blacks, browns, Jews, immigrants, gays and lesbians, or just whoever shows up and gets in their way.
Moving beyond that, we have the new generation of fucking lost boys who like to dress up and play Nazi, and who like to punk the normies with ironic fascist bullshit. These folks are the Gavin McInnes’ and Nathan Damigos of the world. People who find some kind of affirmation in being part of a group of fellow smart-ass white thugs. Some of these folks aren’t violent, a lot of them are. Numbers in terms of folks who will actually show up and beat other people up is probably low thousands.
Folks who don’t actually put their asses in the street and just like to play Nazi on the internet for lulz is probably hundreds of thousands. Stormfront claims 300K subscribers, which means active members is probably a tenth of that. Which is 30K. Breitbart, Reddit, and god knows what other collection of thwarted loser tough guy wanna-be asshole websites.
Those numbers are hundreds of thousands.
Moving on from there, we get to folks like my sister and brother in law, who circulate articles from Pat Buchanan about how the blacks should be grateful they were enslaved, because the food was better and they got to hear about Jesus. Or the dudes I work with a couple of times a year who spend band break time talking about how the Jews are really the cause of all the problems in the world.
Basically, people who aren’t actually going to go beat anybody up, because that’s too much work, and they’re too nice to do something like that, but who don’t really give two shits if cops shoot black kids, or Jewish cemeteries are vandalized, or if people trying to sneak into the country are held without bail or legal review for months or years because they’re illegal dammit.
Now you’re probably talking about a third of the population.
Which is why the thousands or tens of thousands of dudes who are actually making plans to kill people, and the hundreds of thousands of assholes living in their mom’s basement who think it’s hilarious to harrass denigrate and degrade other humans, are a problem.
The doctrine of white supremacy is baked into our history and culture. It’s a fucking cancer, and we’re not even close to being done with it yet.
Tens of thousands of people who fervently believe that it is correct, appropriate, and in fact their sacred duty to eliminate people who are not white protestant christians from the territory of the United States is a f**k of a lot of people.
Hundreds of thousands of people who think it’s cool to dabble in Nazi, neo-Confederate, and other fascist ideologies and regalia is a f**k of a lot of people.
A hundred million people who don’t give a crap if blacks, browns, Jews, and whatever other basket of undesirables you care to mention take it in the neck is really a f**k of a lot of people.
We are not talking infinitesimal.
“There are still an infinitesimally small number of violent racists in the U.S”
Yet the magic of gerrymandering and the power of the right-wing hate media have bequeathed us with a much richer concentration of violent racists in the White House and Congress.
The entire system requires tiki-torching.
I see rumpelstilshit has retweeted the Pizza-gate monster’s bullshit yet agin this morning. Or do we think those are cricket sounds coming from our White House.
I see too that Dean Heller has admitted voting for rump, after lying about it these many months. There are many more liars in out midst, I’m certain, as we out the body snatchers.
I pray on a stack of Mein Kampfs and Mad Magazines that alcoholic, racist, fag-bashing, felon Judge Roy Moore of God Country wins his primary for what was once the republican primary in Alabama and then goes on to win the general for the Senate seat.
I long to hear McConnell and company swear him in and immediately recognize his goose-stepping for what it is ….. tax cuts.
“There are still an infinitesimally small number of violent racists in the U.S”
Yet the magic of gerrymandering and the power of the right-wing hate media have bequeathed us with a much richer concentration of violent racists in the White House and Congress.
The entire system requires tiki-torching.
I see rumpelstilshit has retweeted the Pizza-gate monster’s bullshit yet agin this morning. Or do we think those are cricket sounds coming from our White House.
I see too that Dean Heller has admitted voting for rump, after lying about it these many months. There are many more liars in out midst, I’m certain, as we out the body snatchers.
I pray on a stack of Mein Kampfs and Mad Magazines that alcoholic, racist, fag-bashing, felon Judge Roy Moore of God Country wins his primary for what was once the republican primary in Alabama and then goes on to win the general for the Senate seat.
I long to hear McConnell and company swear him in and immediately recognize his goose-stepping for what it is ….. tax cuts.
also, too – some random liberal from ObWi land looking at Fox is not really the same as somebody checking out StormFront.
Don’t you agree?
also, too – some random liberal from ObWi land looking at Fox is not really the same as somebody checking out StormFront.
Don’t you agree?
Look, man! It was an accident, okay? I didn’t even know what Stormfront was.
Look, man! It was an accident, okay? I didn’t even know what Stormfront was.
and lets not forget that the guy in the WH is more pissed at the media, who went and made him say mean things bout nazis, than he is with the actual nazis.
Obama quotes Mandela, Trump whines about fake news.
and he chose Gorka and Bannon and Clovis to work with.
this shit comes from the very top of the GOP. 60,000,000 people voted for this.
deplorable: every last one of them.
and lets not forget that the guy in the WH is more pissed at the media, who went and made him say mean things bout nazis, than he is with the actual nazis.
Obama quotes Mandela, Trump whines about fake news.
and he chose Gorka and Bannon and Clovis to work with.
this shit comes from the very top of the GOP. 60,000,000 people voted for this.
deplorable: every last one of them.
I think lots of liberals spend more time on Fox and Stormfront than I do. Other than my personal experience that my liberal friends can regularly quote what was said on a Fox News show last night by someone I don’t have clue who they are, I have no idea how many viewers/clicks account for people who need something to raise their blood pressure and help them justify hating people.
I didn’t know what Stormfront was until last night, you couldn’t pay me to spend a minute watching Fox, or MSNBC or CNN. The reality tv fascination with a segment of society we used to leave to the cops and FBI escapes me.
Those college, thumb your nose to get a reaction punks, are no different than your typical entitled safe spacers, just a reaction. Crap, we had real college revolutionaries. Weather Underground and SLA and Black Panthers. They carried guns and bombs. Storefront and Black separatists? Just noise.
I think lots of liberals spend more time on Fox and Stormfront than I do. Other than my personal experience that my liberal friends can regularly quote what was said on a Fox News show last night by someone I don’t have clue who they are, I have no idea how many viewers/clicks account for people who need something to raise their blood pressure and help them justify hating people.
I didn’t know what Stormfront was until last night, you couldn’t pay me to spend a minute watching Fox, or MSNBC or CNN. The reality tv fascination with a segment of society we used to leave to the cops and FBI escapes me.
Those college, thumb your nose to get a reaction punks, are no different than your typical entitled safe spacers, just a reaction. Crap, we had real college revolutionaries. Weather Underground and SLA and Black Panthers. They carried guns and bombs. Storefront and Black separatists? Just noise.
See balloon juice’s mike Godwin (I love how names are so carlin ironic/coincident with reality …. like republican David Brat, off the top of my head).
Yes, Godwin has given everyone permission to use plain English, with a touch of German, to describe what’s right in front of our noses.
I could see maybe that someone might think Stormfront is a new right-wing weather forecasting outfit. I understand the Republican Party wants to defund the National Weather Service and privatize its mission over to Storm Front.
Today’s forecast calls for scattered goose stepping with a threat of heavy fascist floods in the late afternoon. Mushroom clouds forming over Sacramento, according to our NRA afilliate. And, up next, our sports announcer will take you through the Jew-burning and brown people catapulting scores on location at the Very, Very White House.
Every time a polar ice cap splashes into the ocean, they light a tiki torch in obeisance as their mothers’ basements flood and they have to move upstairs with Mommy.
See balloon juice’s mike Godwin (I love how names are so carlin ironic/coincident with reality …. like republican David Brat, off the top of my head).
Yes, Godwin has given everyone permission to use plain English, with a touch of German, to describe what’s right in front of our noses.
I could see maybe that someone might think Stormfront is a new right-wing weather forecasting outfit. I understand the Republican Party wants to defund the National Weather Service and privatize its mission over to Storm Front.
Today’s forecast calls for scattered goose stepping with a threat of heavy fascist floods in the late afternoon. Mushroom clouds forming over Sacramento, according to our NRA afilliate. And, up next, our sports announcer will take you through the Jew-burning and brown people catapulting scores on location at the Very, Very White House.
Every time a polar ice cap splashes into the ocean, they light a tiki torch in obeisance as their mothers’ basements flood and they have to move upstairs with Mommy.
Weather Underground and SLA and Black Panthers. They carried guns and bombs.
McVeigh, Eric Rudolph?
since 2001: Dylann Roof, James Harris Jackson, Jared Lee Loughner, Keith Luke, Jerad and Amanda Miller, Robert Lewis Dear,Frazier Glenn Miller, Wade Michael Page, James Wenneker von Brunn, Scott Roeder, Jim David Adkisson.
noise.
the noise of people killed by “conservatives”.
clean up your party.
Weather Underground and SLA and Black Panthers. They carried guns and bombs.
McVeigh, Eric Rudolph?
since 2001: Dylann Roof, James Harris Jackson, Jared Lee Loughner, Keith Luke, Jerad and Amanda Miller, Robert Lewis Dear,Frazier Glenn Miller, Wade Michael Page, James Wenneker von Brunn, Scott Roeder, Jim David Adkisson.
noise.
the noise of people killed by “conservatives”.
clean up your party.
Trump must go
Trump must go
Then go get in a fight with an antifas, which is probably not that hard to do.
If I had to choose sides, I be with the antifas, but that’s not saying much. I like them more than neo-Nazis – not the highest bar.
Part of me thinks, “Someone has to stand up to those a$$holes.” And I really can’t say I mind seeing the likes of Richard Spencer getting punched in the head. But I also think that’s the arrested adolescent in me talking.
The antifas are as likely to tarnish “the left” as they are to push back against white ethno-nationalists/fascists.
Taking up with them is playing with fire, but it’s sometimes tempting. It would probably be more tempting if they didn’t just go around randomly breaking sh1t. Of course, they are anarchists after all.
What gives them a bit of allure, for me, is their lack of identifiable organization and leadership. They just kind of show up, like Spiderman (neat!). They come, do their thing, and they scatter. There’s not much “Look at us!” as there is with their right-wing counterparts.
But, in the end, they’re probably more trouble than they’re worth (at least for now).
Then go get in a fight with an antifas, which is probably not that hard to do.
If I had to choose sides, I be with the antifas, but that’s not saying much. I like them more than neo-Nazis – not the highest bar.
Part of me thinks, “Someone has to stand up to those a$$holes.” And I really can’t say I mind seeing the likes of Richard Spencer getting punched in the head. But I also think that’s the arrested adolescent in me talking.
The antifas are as likely to tarnish “the left” as they are to push back against white ethno-nationalists/fascists.
Taking up with them is playing with fire, but it’s sometimes tempting. It would probably be more tempting if they didn’t just go around randomly breaking sh1t. Of course, they are anarchists after all.
What gives them a bit of allure, for me, is their lack of identifiable organization and leadership. They just kind of show up, like Spiderman (neat!). They come, do their thing, and they scatter. There’s not much “Look at us!” as there is with their right-wing counterparts.
But, in the end, they’re probably more trouble than they’re worth (at least for now).
Weather Underground and SLA and Black Panthers.
Those were the days!
Those folks are mostly dead now. Dead, or teaching in a university somewhere.
Nowadays it’s all the young dudes with Nazi fade haircuts.
I have an interest in this stuff going back some years, for some reason. Mostly I think racists just piss me off. So, I probably pay more attention to it than the average Joe.
No Fox for me, though, and no I don’t browse StormFront to see what the Nazis are on about today. They’re always on about the same crap, no need to refresh my memory.
They’ve been around a long time, mostly in tiny numbers, but both the numbers and the willingness to be right out front about it have grown, a lot, in the last couple of years.
Like, since the 2016 presidential campaign.
Funny, that.
The difference between thumb-your-nose Nazi wannabes and safe-place social justice warriors is the SJW’s have never really been into beating the shit out of people.
Not a trivial distinction.
Weather Underground and SLA and Black Panthers.
Those were the days!
Those folks are mostly dead now. Dead, or teaching in a university somewhere.
Nowadays it’s all the young dudes with Nazi fade haircuts.
I have an interest in this stuff going back some years, for some reason. Mostly I think racists just piss me off. So, I probably pay more attention to it than the average Joe.
No Fox for me, though, and no I don’t browse StormFront to see what the Nazis are on about today. They’re always on about the same crap, no need to refresh my memory.
They’ve been around a long time, mostly in tiny numbers, but both the numbers and the willingness to be right out front about it have grown, a lot, in the last couple of years.
Like, since the 2016 presidential campaign.
Funny, that.
The difference between thumb-your-nose Nazi wannabes and safe-place social justice warriors is the SJW’s have never really been into beating the shit out of people.
Not a trivial distinction.
Yes cleek, all those college students.
One thing I definitely agree with russell on, people have always hated other people. Our country has always had an undercurrent, at a minimum, of racism.
The Republicans don’t own that franchise, Massachusetts is one of the bluest and most racist places I have ever lived.
So no, there are not an army of violent racists out there to worry about at scale, yes there are dangerous crazy people who will kill others with race as the excuse for who they pick.
Yes cleek, all those college students.
One thing I definitely agree with russell on, people have always hated other people. Our country has always had an undercurrent, at a minimum, of racism.
The Republicans don’t own that franchise, Massachusetts is one of the bluest and most racist places I have ever lived.
So no, there are not an army of violent racists out there to worry about at scale, yes there are dangerous crazy people who will kill others with race as the excuse for who they pick.
Yes cleek, all those college students.
how many have they killed in the past 30 years?
Yes cleek, all those college students.
how many have they killed in the past 30 years?
The Republicans don’t own that franchise, Massachusetts is one of the bluest and most racist places I have ever lived.
I do not disagree with this.
So no, there are not an army of violent racists out there to worry about at scale
Let’s keep it that way.
It’s not like it hasn’t happened here before.
The Republicans don’t own that franchise, Massachusetts is one of the bluest and most racist places I have ever lived.
I do not disagree with this.
So no, there are not an army of violent racists out there to worry about at scale
Let’s keep it that way.
It’s not like it hasn’t happened here before.
“The Republicans don’t own that franchise, Massachusetts is one of the bluest and most racist places I have ever lived.”
As is Pittsburgh, my hometown. Ohio is rife with it.
But I’m don’t know what point this argument supports. Except maybe that the reckoning we are approaching will be much more horrific than we expect.
“So no, there are not an army of violent racists out there to worry about at scale.”
Who needs scale when they have the White House, much of Congress, and sizable elements of the American military, some handpicked by rump for elevation to White House posts.
They’ve leveraged their scale to advantage and that will be smashed.
“The Republicans don’t own that franchise, Massachusetts is one of the bluest and most racist places I have ever lived.”
As is Pittsburgh, my hometown. Ohio is rife with it.
But I’m don’t know what point this argument supports. Except maybe that the reckoning we are approaching will be much more horrific than we expect.
“So no, there are not an army of violent racists out there to worry about at scale.”
Who needs scale when they have the White House, much of Congress, and sizable elements of the American military, some handpicked by rump for elevation to White House posts.
They’ve leveraged their scale to advantage and that will be smashed.
“So no, there are not an army of violent racists out there to worry about at scale.”
some would probably disagree and point to the collective police forces of the US as just such an army. an army that has been encouraged to violence by the leader of the Republican Party.
and i would have a hard time arguing against their perspective.
“So no, there are not an army of violent racists out there to worry about at scale.”
some would probably disagree and point to the collective police forces of the US as just such an army. an army that has been encouraged to violence by the leader of the Republican Party.
and i would have a hard time arguing against their perspective.
The Republicans don’t own that franchise, Massachusetts is one of the bluest and most racist places I have ever lived.
New Jersey isn’t quite as blue as MA, but it’s pretty blue, and there’s plenty of racism here, too. The thing is, in my experience, the racists here tend to be on the more conservative side politically and far more likely to vote Republican.
States aren’t, in and of themselves, racist. It’s the individual people in them making them that way, in aggregation.
Maybe MA has a disproportionate share of racist Democrats. I suppose it’s possible.
The Republicans don’t own that franchise, Massachusetts is one of the bluest and most racist places I have ever lived.
New Jersey isn’t quite as blue as MA, but it’s pretty blue, and there’s plenty of racism here, too. The thing is, in my experience, the racists here tend to be on the more conservative side politically and far more likely to vote Republican.
States aren’t, in and of themselves, racist. It’s the individual people in them making them that way, in aggregation.
Maybe MA has a disproportionate share of racist Democrats. I suppose it’s possible.
I read secondhand Stormfront’s (turns out it’s not a weather forecasting outfit) awful hateful condemnation of the woman they murdered in Virgina the other day.
The language was exquisitly rumpian, Idi Aminish, and ton ton macoutein in its daft, disgusting manner and furthermore reminded me of the language used to describe the late Rachael Corrie by the likes of Tacitus the Lesser, Moe Lane, and company in the various internet forerunners to OBWI when she was run over by an Israeli bulldozer years ago.
It kicks my institutional memory in.
So, who is teaching who how to talk trash among the right wing. I say Stormfront has malign teachers and the rooting out of these filth will go deep and wide.
I read secondhand Stormfront’s (turns out it’s not a weather forecasting outfit) awful hateful condemnation of the woman they murdered in Virgina the other day.
The language was exquisitly rumpian, Idi Aminish, and ton ton macoutein in its daft, disgusting manner and furthermore reminded me of the language used to describe the late Rachael Corrie by the likes of Tacitus the Lesser, Moe Lane, and company in the various internet forerunners to OBWI when she was run over by an Israeli bulldozer years ago.
It kicks my institutional memory in.
So, who is teaching who how to talk trash among the right wing. I say Stormfront has malign teachers and the rooting out of these filth will go deep and wide.
I read secondhand Stormfront’s (turns out it’s not a weather forecasting outfit)
and Weather Underground is not a militant lefty group!
what a crazy mixed up world.
I read secondhand Stormfront’s (turns out it’s not a weather forecasting outfit)
and Weather Underground is not a militant lefty group!
what a crazy mixed up world.
Numbers in terms of folks who will actually show up and beat other people up is probably low thousands.
And the wonders of modern transportation (created by people who they would despise for our expertise) allows that small number to show up to play anywhere in the country.
Just like modern communications mean that we hear instantly (pictures and everything) whenever there is a spectacular crime anywhere in the country. And so are able to imagine that the violent crime rate is going up, even though it is actually going down . . . just because we hear about more crimes.
Numbers in terms of folks who will actually show up and beat other people up is probably low thousands.
And the wonders of modern transportation (created by people who they would despise for our expertise) allows that small number to show up to play anywhere in the country.
Just like modern communications mean that we hear instantly (pictures and everything) whenever there is a spectacular crime anywhere in the country. And so are able to imagine that the violent crime rate is going up, even though it is actually going down . . . just because we hear about more crimes.
I pray on a stack of Mein Kampfs and Mad Magazines that alcoholic, racist, fag-bashing, felon Judge Roy Moore of God Country wins his primary for what was once the republican primary in Alabama and then goes on to win the general for the Senate seat.
Personally, I will be fine if him winning the primary (or the run-off) means that he loses the general. Because I would prefer some signs that even Alabama is moving in the right direction, and deciding that Senator Moore would be too much is progress. However far they still have to go.
I pray on a stack of Mein Kampfs and Mad Magazines that alcoholic, racist, fag-bashing, felon Judge Roy Moore of God Country wins his primary for what was once the republican primary in Alabama and then goes on to win the general for the Senate seat.
Personally, I will be fine if him winning the primary (or the run-off) means that he loses the general. Because I would prefer some signs that even Alabama is moving in the right direction, and deciding that Senator Moore would be too much is progress. However far they still have to go.
Crap, we had real college revolutionaries. Weather Underground and SLA and Black Panthers. They carried guns and bombs.
We did. And also lots of kids who went out to (planned, and announced in advance) riots. Not because they cared in the slightest about whatever the nominal cause was. But because, in the words of one that I knew personally, “It’s what’s happening! It’s exciting!”
The kid would never have cold-bloodedly looted a store or set a fire or physically attacked someone on the street. But he would cheerfully go out and swell the crowd that hid the guys who would. I have no doubt we have his like today as well. (Which is why I suspect that the numbers in the neo-Nazi crowd may be rather larger than the actual number of believers on scene.)
Crap, we had real college revolutionaries. Weather Underground and SLA and Black Panthers. They carried guns and bombs.
We did. And also lots of kids who went out to (planned, and announced in advance) riots. Not because they cared in the slightest about whatever the nominal cause was. But because, in the words of one that I knew personally, “It’s what’s happening! It’s exciting!”
The kid would never have cold-bloodedly looted a store or set a fire or physically attacked someone on the street. But he would cheerfully go out and swell the crowd that hid the guys who would. I have no doubt we have his like today as well. (Which is why I suspect that the numbers in the neo-Nazi crowd may be rather larger than the actual number of believers on scene.)
and i would have a hard time arguing against their perspective.
for example, via BJ:
and i would have a hard time arguing against their perspective.
for example, via BJ:
… safe-place social justice warriors is the SJW’s have never really been into beating the shit out of people.
Well, not physically anyway.
… safe-place social justice warriors is the SJW’s have never really been into beating the shit out of people.
Well, not physically anyway.
“It’s not like it hasn’t happened here before.”
And, more recently than say the Civil War, we had violence in the streets from the left. The concept that right wing belligerents are more likely to be violent is pretty situational.
Your reaction to the statue being destroyed by rioters is perhaps the uneasiness that anarchy and violence aren’t good things, from whomever.
Killing the racists is probably not a good plan, however emotionally appealing.
“It’s not like it hasn’t happened here before.”
And, more recently than say the Civil War, we had violence in the streets from the left. The concept that right wing belligerents are more likely to be violent is pretty situational.
Your reaction to the statue being destroyed by rioters is perhaps the uneasiness that anarchy and violence aren’t good things, from whomever.
Killing the racists is probably not a good plan, however emotionally appealing.
Marty and Russell: “The Republicans don’t own that franchise, Massachusetts is one of the bluest and most racist places I have ever lived.”
Count: As is Pittsburgh, my hometown. Ohio is rife with it.
HSH: New Jersey isn’t quite as blue as MA, but it’s pretty blue, and there’s plenty of racism here, too.
Sometimes I feel like I must, simply must, be living in an alternate reality or something. I mean here I am, in a relatively red area of a very blue state (one of only 3 cities and towns in all of California where registered Republicans are a majority – not a plurality, but an actual majority). And yet even here, I’m just not seeing that.
Or maybe I just need to get out more…?
Marty and Russell: “The Republicans don’t own that franchise, Massachusetts is one of the bluest and most racist places I have ever lived.”
Count: As is Pittsburgh, my hometown. Ohio is rife with it.
HSH: New Jersey isn’t quite as blue as MA, but it’s pretty blue, and there’s plenty of racism here, too.
Sometimes I feel like I must, simply must, be living in an alternate reality or something. I mean here I am, in a relatively red area of a very blue state (one of only 3 cities and towns in all of California where registered Republicans are a majority – not a plurality, but an actual majority). And yet even here, I’m just not seeing that.
Or maybe I just need to get out more…?
Weather Underground is not a militant lefty group! [Any more.]
Yeah, I was struck when my wife signed our home weather station up with them. I really wonder if the folks who named it were aware of any more than the name when they picked it. And if so, what their thinking was in doing so.
Weather Underground is not a militant lefty group! [Any more.]
Yeah, I was struck when my wife signed our home weather station up with them. I really wonder if the folks who named it were aware of any more than the name when they picked it. And if so, what their thinking was in doing so.
From today’s National Review:
They deserve their fair share of the blame for the entirely predictable consequences of that choice. Why did so many otherwise respectable conservative groups host Milo Yiannopoulos, an apologist for the alt-right, on college campuses across America? After the violence in Charlottesville, it’s time we looked in the mirror. Steve Bannon was far from the only man who gave the alt-right a platform to spread its hate.
Read more at: “>http://www.nationalreview.com/article/450469/campus-conservative-organizations-alt-right-platform-free-speech-milo-yiannopoulos-charlottesville-terrorist-attack
There is plenty more there like it. David French called out the Alt-Right in no uncertain terms well before anyone here or elsewhere seemed to recognized its existence. You don’t hear any of this kids-will-be-kids stuff either.
As for some of the other comments here:
1. The safe-spacers seem to have taken over Google too.
2. No one seems to have demanded that Muslims ‘own’ Islamic terrorism.
3. No one seems to link BLM to the ambushing of police officers, or to demand that BLM “own” that.
Highly selective stuff, this “owning”.
If you want a culprit, consider *Identity Politics* and its current offspring, Critical Race Theory and Intersectionality.
In and of themselves, these are just standard, lefty, academic whack-doodleness with their genesis in fringe (as opposed to mainstream) feminism, black studies and lefty economics that, inexplicably have gotten far more traction than they deserve.
All of which can be spun to white racist extremists as an existential threat–and in a way it is (and not a bad thing if that was all the impact these lunatic ideas have and will continue to have).
If people on the right do not disown and call out the Alt-right and the white supremacists, then yes, they are complicit. This is also true on the left, where, quite frankly, the reaction to the long standing safe spacers has been seriously muted and, when it is mentioned at all, is understated and nuanced and plays up the fiction that it’s just those silly college kids doing what kids do. They are freaking bullies and they are now bullying their employers into firing fellow employees who don’t tow the fricking line. Killing a protester is murder and that little Fnck will get what is coming to him. Running people off of the payroll because they don’t buy into a subset of lefty BS is apparently legal. Own that.
Back to work.
From today’s National Review:
They deserve their fair share of the blame for the entirely predictable consequences of that choice. Why did so many otherwise respectable conservative groups host Milo Yiannopoulos, an apologist for the alt-right, on college campuses across America? After the violence in Charlottesville, it’s time we looked in the mirror. Steve Bannon was far from the only man who gave the alt-right a platform to spread its hate.
Read more at: “>http://www.nationalreview.com/article/450469/campus-conservative-organizations-alt-right-platform-free-speech-milo-yiannopoulos-charlottesville-terrorist-attack
There is plenty more there like it. David French called out the Alt-Right in no uncertain terms well before anyone here or elsewhere seemed to recognized its existence. You don’t hear any of this kids-will-be-kids stuff either.
As for some of the other comments here:
1. The safe-spacers seem to have taken over Google too.
2. No one seems to have demanded that Muslims ‘own’ Islamic terrorism.
3. No one seems to link BLM to the ambushing of police officers, or to demand that BLM “own” that.
Highly selective stuff, this “owning”.
If you want a culprit, consider *Identity Politics* and its current offspring, Critical Race Theory and Intersectionality.
In and of themselves, these are just standard, lefty, academic whack-doodleness with their genesis in fringe (as opposed to mainstream) feminism, black studies and lefty economics that, inexplicably have gotten far more traction than they deserve.
All of which can be spun to white racist extremists as an existential threat–and in a way it is (and not a bad thing if that was all the impact these lunatic ideas have and will continue to have).
If people on the right do not disown and call out the Alt-right and the white supremacists, then yes, they are complicit. This is also true on the left, where, quite frankly, the reaction to the long standing safe spacers has been seriously muted and, when it is mentioned at all, is understated and nuanced and plays up the fiction that it’s just those silly college kids doing what kids do. They are freaking bullies and they are now bullying their employers into firing fellow employees who don’t tow the fricking line. Killing a protester is murder and that little Fnck will get what is coming to him. Running people off of the payroll because they don’t buy into a subset of lefty BS is apparently legal. Own that.
Back to work.
They are freaking bullies and they are now bullying their employers into firing fellow employees who don’t tow the fricking line.
I don’t doubt that there are some who are, or are trying, doing this. But I think there are also companies who are firing people because a) the senior management objects to the views, or b) the senior management is clear that it will harm their bottom line if they are seen to have employees who hold those views.
Cf the guy who used to work at Top Dog for an example of the latter. I have no idea about the personal political views of Top Dog management. But that it would hurt their custom (they are about 2 blocks from the UC Berkeley campus) seems beyond question. No employee bullying required to make that decision.
They are freaking bullies and they are now bullying their employers into firing fellow employees who don’t tow the fricking line.
I don’t doubt that there are some who are, or are trying, doing this. But I think there are also companies who are firing people because a) the senior management objects to the views, or b) the senior management is clear that it will harm their bottom line if they are seen to have employees who hold those views.
Cf the guy who used to work at Top Dog for an example of the latter. I have no idea about the personal political views of Top Dog management. But that it would hurt their custom (they are about 2 blocks from the UC Berkeley campus) seems beyond question. No employee bullying required to make that decision.
… a) the senior management objects to the views, or b) the senior management is clear that it will harm their bottom line if they are seen to have employees who hold those views.
… or c) the senior management is scared of federal hostile workplace regulations.
… a) the senior management objects to the views, or b) the senior management is clear that it will harm their bottom line if they are seen to have employees who hold those views.
… or c) the senior management is scared of federal hostile workplace regulations.
I live in an employment at will state, so I’ve always been careful not to rant too much at work. That’s why I hang out here. It wouldn’t occur to me to send a political manifesto to my colleagues.
I live in an employment at will state, so I’ve always been careful not to rant too much at work. That’s why I hang out here. It wouldn’t occur to me to send a political manifesto to my colleagues.
Running people off of the payroll because they don’t buy into a subset of lefty BS is apparently legal.
Well sure, employment at will and all. There’s always unionization…
But, what particular subset of lefty BS was at issue in the incident you reference are you talking about?
Running people off of the payroll because they don’t buy into a subset of lefty BS is apparently legal.
Well sure, employment at will and all. There’s always unionization…
But, what particular subset of lefty BS was at issue in the incident you reference are you talking about?
Highly selective stuff, this “owning”.
That was kind of the point, if this is referring to my earlier posts. I don’t really buy it, this silly “ownership,” but if I take people on their own terms when they suggest that “the left” has to own the safe-spacers, then “the right” has to own the alt-right/neo-Nazis/KKK. And that, to me, would be a bargain.
Thanks for playing!
Highly selective stuff, this “owning”.
That was kind of the point, if this is referring to my earlier posts. I don’t really buy it, this silly “ownership,” but if I take people on their own terms when they suggest that “the left” has to own the safe-spacers, then “the right” has to own the alt-right/neo-Nazis/KKK. And that, to me, would be a bargain.
Thanks for playing!
And, more recently than say the Civil War, we had violence in the streets from the left
My reference to “it’s happened here before” was less about the Civil War, and more about the hundred-plus years of domestic terrorism focused on depriving black people of their civil rights.
Yes, when you and I were young sprouts, there were violent leftists in the land. Also, for about 30 or 40 years around the turn of the 20th C. Those cats killed a President and bombed Wall Street. No slouches, them.
Nazism and white supremacy has, somehow, become a thing. Again. There doesn’t need to be ten million white supremacists for it to be a matter of concern. Tens of thousands is sufficient.
I don’t think brushing it off and saying “nothing to worry about here” is prudent.
As always, you are free to think and respond as you wish. I’ll be on Boston Common on Saturday.
Running people off of the payroll because they don’t buy into a subset of lefty BS is apparently legal. Own that.
Google fired Damore because (a) they are a shop that has a stated policy of non-discrimination and inclusion, and (b) he used internal email to express his opinion that women were biologically incapable of doing engineering work.
If some dude at your place of business used company email to fire off a multi-page thesis expressing his opinion that women had no business being attorneys, complete with scientific studies, pie charts, and 8×10 glossy photos, my guess is that you might show him the door.
And that would be appropriate.
On the one hand, Nazis. Not sort-of Nazis, or odd-ish sorts with a B&D dress-up fetish. People who think folks who aren’t white christians (or maybe odinists) should be killed or, at a minimum, driven from the country.
On the other hand, a tech company fires a guy for being an ass on company email.
Probably best to go back to work. Glad to provide the opportunity for a “lefty equivalence” drive-by.
See ya on the flip-side.
Killing the racists is probably not a good plan
My plan for racists is to try to plant a tiny seed in their heads that people who aren’t like them aren’t their enemy.
If I get that far, I declare victory.
I’m not about killing anybody. Not even Nazis.
And, more recently than say the Civil War, we had violence in the streets from the left
My reference to “it’s happened here before” was less about the Civil War, and more about the hundred-plus years of domestic terrorism focused on depriving black people of their civil rights.
Yes, when you and I were young sprouts, there were violent leftists in the land. Also, for about 30 or 40 years around the turn of the 20th C. Those cats killed a President and bombed Wall Street. No slouches, them.
Nazism and white supremacy has, somehow, become a thing. Again. There doesn’t need to be ten million white supremacists for it to be a matter of concern. Tens of thousands is sufficient.
I don’t think brushing it off and saying “nothing to worry about here” is prudent.
As always, you are free to think and respond as you wish. I’ll be on Boston Common on Saturday.
Running people off of the payroll because they don’t buy into a subset of lefty BS is apparently legal. Own that.
Google fired Damore because (a) they are a shop that has a stated policy of non-discrimination and inclusion, and (b) he used internal email to express his opinion that women were biologically incapable of doing engineering work.
If some dude at your place of business used company email to fire off a multi-page thesis expressing his opinion that women had no business being attorneys, complete with scientific studies, pie charts, and 8×10 glossy photos, my guess is that you might show him the door.
And that would be appropriate.
On the one hand, Nazis. Not sort-of Nazis, or odd-ish sorts with a B&D dress-up fetish. People who think folks who aren’t white christians (or maybe odinists) should be killed or, at a minimum, driven from the country.
On the other hand, a tech company fires a guy for being an ass on company email.
Probably best to go back to work. Glad to provide the opportunity for a “lefty equivalence” drive-by.
See ya on the flip-side.
Killing the racists is probably not a good plan
My plan for racists is to try to plant a tiny seed in their heads that people who aren’t like them aren’t their enemy.
If I get that far, I declare victory.
I’m not about killing anybody. Not even Nazis.
1. The safe-spacers seem to have taken over Google too.
even for you, this is ridiculous.
the guy wrote a pseudo-scientific screed in which he told all of his co-workers that women were less biologically suited to be there than men. what the fuck is an employer supposed to do in that situation? how can they keep him? he alienated a huge percentage of his co-workers – not just women, but men who find his views repulsive and people who don’t want their workplace turned into a political battlefield. he splurted his own personal politics all over the company’s social fabric. who would want to work with a person like that? who would want to employ him?
but, of course McTx has to be against anything he’s told a liberal likes, so here he is defending sexism.
No one seems to have demanded that Muslims ‘own’ Islamic terrorism.
lolwut?
No one seems to link BLM to the ambushing of police officers, or to demand that BLM “own” that.
Micah Xavier Johnson told people that he wasn’t affiliated with BLM. that makes trying to assign ownership to them seem foolish.
If you want a culprit, consider *Identity Politics*
no doubt. no doubt.
US history is full of murderers who were obsessed with their white identity. they’re still killing people, in fact.
and its current offspring, Critical Race Theory and Intersectionality.
how many people has Critical Race Theory killed this week?
your party is lead by a bunch of goddamned white nationalists. wake up.
1. The safe-spacers seem to have taken over Google too.
even for you, this is ridiculous.
the guy wrote a pseudo-scientific screed in which he told all of his co-workers that women were less biologically suited to be there than men. what the fuck is an employer supposed to do in that situation? how can they keep him? he alienated a huge percentage of his co-workers – not just women, but men who find his views repulsive and people who don’t want their workplace turned into a political battlefield. he splurted his own personal politics all over the company’s social fabric. who would want to work with a person like that? who would want to employ him?
but, of course McTx has to be against anything he’s told a liberal likes, so here he is defending sexism.
No one seems to have demanded that Muslims ‘own’ Islamic terrorism.
lolwut?
No one seems to link BLM to the ambushing of police officers, or to demand that BLM “own” that.
Micah Xavier Johnson told people that he wasn’t affiliated with BLM. that makes trying to assign ownership to them seem foolish.
If you want a culprit, consider *Identity Politics*
no doubt. no doubt.
US history is full of murderers who were obsessed with their white identity. they’re still killing people, in fact.
and its current offspring, Critical Race Theory and Intersectionality.
how many people has Critical Race Theory killed this week?
your party is lead by a bunch of goddamned white nationalists. wake up.
I should add that I generically use the term “safe-spacers” somewhat ironically. I’m poking fun at those sort of gross generalizations – similar to the use of “SJW.”
I will say, as an example of what I think McKinney may be getting at, that the kerfuffle at Yale a few years back over the email about Halloween costumes was ridiculous and uncalled for. It did real damage to people who didn’t deserve it. It went beyond silly.
That said, I take these campus things one at a time. Sometimes, they are just silly. Sometime not. Sometimes, they’re even justified and valid, despite anyone’s characterization that they stem from loony left-wing theorizing.
All IMO, of course, though I’m happy to back it up.
I should add that I generically use the term “safe-spacers” somewhat ironically. I’m poking fun at those sort of gross generalizations – similar to the use of “SJW.”
I will say, as an example of what I think McKinney may be getting at, that the kerfuffle at Yale a few years back over the email about Halloween costumes was ridiculous and uncalled for. It did real damage to people who didn’t deserve it. It went beyond silly.
That said, I take these campus things one at a time. Sometimes, they are just silly. Sometime not. Sometimes, they’re even justified and valid, despite anyone’s characterization that they stem from loony left-wing theorizing.
All IMO, of course, though I’m happy to back it up.
take these campus things one at a time
In general, I take these campus things as political correctness run amok.
And in general, I take them as campus things.
Sometimes they’re harmful. To my knowledge, they don’t involve beating people with pipes and stomping on their heads. Or driving into them with cars. In general, their effect doesn’t extend beyond the campus in question.
So, no, I don’t see the equivalence.
take these campus things one at a time
In general, I take these campus things as political correctness run amok.
And in general, I take them as campus things.
Sometimes they’re harmful. To my knowledge, they don’t involve beating people with pipes and stomping on their heads. Or driving into them with cars. In general, their effect doesn’t extend beyond the campus in question.
So, no, I don’t see the equivalence.
the implicit assumption that liberals are the only people who want to be sheltered from people who disagree with them is really amazing; as is the assumption that liberals are the only people who think about their own identity when it comes to politics.
the right has done a truly amazing job of convincing people of these patently false notions, and of crafting the language used to enforce these delusions.
i suggest we stop playing that game.
the implicit assumption that liberals are the only people who want to be sheltered from people who disagree with them is really amazing; as is the assumption that liberals are the only people who think about their own identity when it comes to politics.
the right has done a truly amazing job of convincing people of these patently false notions, and of crafting the language used to enforce these delusions.
i suggest we stop playing that game.
Running people off of the payroll because they don’t buy into a subset of lefty BS is apparently legal….
It seems to me (FWIW) that you can either have ‘lefty’ european type employment safeguards, or you can expect to be fired for expressing political views which embarrass the company*,
I know which I favour, but it sounds as though McKT is complaining about the operation of the untrammelled free market he ordinarily appears to favour.
From a UK/European perspective, ‘hire/fire at will’ seems a pretty brutal policy. Speaking as an employer (and one who hates paperwork with a passion), the requirements of employment law can be a pain in the ass, but they are not unreasonable.
* That’s not to say it absolutely couldn’t happen in the UK, but you would at the very least get formal warnings before it did.
Running people off of the payroll because they don’t buy into a subset of lefty BS is apparently legal….
It seems to me (FWIW) that you can either have ‘lefty’ european type employment safeguards, or you can expect to be fired for expressing political views which embarrass the company*,
I know which I favour, but it sounds as though McKT is complaining about the operation of the untrammelled free market he ordinarily appears to favour.
From a UK/European perspective, ‘hire/fire at will’ seems a pretty brutal policy. Speaking as an employer (and one who hates paperwork with a passion), the requirements of employment law can be a pain in the ass, but they are not unreasonable.
* That’s not to say it absolutely couldn’t happen in the UK, but you would at the very least get formal warnings before it did.
Good to see you, McKT.
I thought the Halloween costume thing at Yale was a bit nuts too. Thing is, when people used to dress up as the the Big Bad Wolf, they didn’t go out and actually eat little girls when Goldilocks complained to her Fairy Tales professor.
Now, we don’t like a costume signaling some vague prejudice and as the complaints roll in, Adolf Hitler rings the doorbell and announces Lebensraum. Heraus, Heraus!
As for the Google fire at will thing, which I’m against even when Putin and rump do it to State Depaertment employees, I am all for the First Amendment allowing Google employees to stand on the guy’s desk and yell STFU at him during his lunch breaks.
MCTX, if an attorney in your firm distributed a firm-wide memo opining that all white males suck on account of what science has learned about my brain what then?
Would the person make partner?
Good to see you, McKT.
I thought the Halloween costume thing at Yale was a bit nuts too. Thing is, when people used to dress up as the the Big Bad Wolf, they didn’t go out and actually eat little girls when Goldilocks complained to her Fairy Tales professor.
Now, we don’t like a costume signaling some vague prejudice and as the complaints roll in, Adolf Hitler rings the doorbell and announces Lebensraum. Heraus, Heraus!
As for the Google fire at will thing, which I’m against even when Putin and rump do it to State Depaertment employees, I am all for the First Amendment allowing Google employees to stand on the guy’s desk and yell STFU at him during his lunch breaks.
MCTX, if an attorney in your firm distributed a firm-wide memo opining that all white males suck on account of what science has learned about my brain what then?
Would the person make partner?
“To my knowledge, they don’t involve beating people with pipes and stomping on their heads”
It does include violently attacking professors. It does include using violent demonstrations to intimidate campus speakers.
It has included pipe bombs and M-16’s. Used by those people that are now professors, as you say.
Equivalence is surely not what we are talking about here. I saw one specific report of violence In Charlottesville, the car. Everything else was a fight broke out or violence erupted. It is your assumption as to who started it.
Based on your steel toed boots and goggles can I assume you are willing to throw a punch? Cause that’s how the other guys are dressing too.
And I haven’t started on antifa or whatever.
The evil here is violence. Going to disrupt a rally by another group pretty much ensures that violence will happen. It also ensures that the nazis get lots of media coverage.
What if they marched and nobody came?
And I will be on the Common also. Maybe standing in the middle, where I will surely get hurt by both sides.
“To my knowledge, they don’t involve beating people with pipes and stomping on their heads”
It does include violently attacking professors. It does include using violent demonstrations to intimidate campus speakers.
It has included pipe bombs and M-16’s. Used by those people that are now professors, as you say.
Equivalence is surely not what we are talking about here. I saw one specific report of violence In Charlottesville, the car. Everything else was a fight broke out or violence erupted. It is your assumption as to who started it.
Based on your steel toed boots and goggles can I assume you are willing to throw a punch? Cause that’s how the other guys are dressing too.
And I haven’t started on antifa or whatever.
The evil here is violence. Going to disrupt a rally by another group pretty much ensures that violence will happen. It also ensures that the nazis get lots of media coverage.
What if they marched and nobody came?
And I will be on the Common also. Maybe standing in the middle, where I will surely get hurt by both sides.
Open thread!
Garrison Keillor definitely has a way with words:
Sorry, just couldn’t resist sharing.
Open thread!
Garrison Keillor definitely has a way with words:
Sorry, just couldn’t resist sharing.
The anti-Nazis are the real Nazis.
I image russell is simply preparing for what can reasonably be expected. The antifas are looking for fight and are willing to start one. Being ready for one isn’t the same thing.
If you had to pick sides in a fight between antifas and neo-Nazis/KKK, whose side would you pick, Marty?
The anti-Nazis are the real Nazis.
I image russell is simply preparing for what can reasonably be expected. The antifas are looking for fight and are willing to start one. Being ready for one isn’t the same thing.
If you had to pick sides in a fight between antifas and neo-Nazis/KKK, whose side would you pick, Marty?
It has included pipe bombs and M-16’s. Used by those people that are now professors, as you say.
Forty years ago. No one, I don’t think, is trying to suggest that right-wing groups have always, at any given point in time, been more violent than left-wing groups. I think we’re talking about now.
Perhaps the left will try to catch up, given the way things seem to be going. Maybe there’s no other way for this pimple to pop.
It has included pipe bombs and M-16’s. Used by those people that are now professors, as you say.
Forty years ago. No one, I don’t think, is trying to suggest that right-wing groups have always, at any given point in time, been more violent than left-wing groups. I think we’re talking about now.
Perhaps the left will try to catch up, given the way things seem to be going. Maybe there’s no other way for this pimple to pop.
I don’t, and won’t, have to pick a side. I did stop beating my wife though, and I will defend myself if attacked by either side.
To be really prepared he would need to bring a pipe, just in case. Or pepper spray, hell maybe a gun. Cant be too careful. It’s those guys that are the problem anyway.
That’s the way the gangs used to talk on the block at home.
Fnckin stay home, youre more likely to wake up the next morning. It’s two less people for the cops to worry about.
I’m only going because I imagine a scene where a million people show up and stand around on the sidewalks on the Common in between the two crazy groups making it impossible for them to fight each other.
Yeah I know, I’m the crazy one.
Besides maybe I can sell the video. With CSNY as the soundtrack.
I don’t, and won’t, have to pick a side. I did stop beating my wife though, and I will defend myself if attacked by either side.
To be really prepared he would need to bring a pipe, just in case. Or pepper spray, hell maybe a gun. Cant be too careful. It’s those guys that are the problem anyway.
That’s the way the gangs used to talk on the block at home.
Fnckin stay home, youre more likely to wake up the next morning. It’s two less people for the cops to worry about.
I’m only going because I imagine a scene where a million people show up and stand around on the sidewalks on the Common in between the two crazy groups making it impossible for them to fight each other.
Yeah I know, I’m the crazy one.
Besides maybe I can sell the video. With CSNY as the soundtrack.
It does include violently attacking professors. It does include using violent demonstrations to intimidate campus speakers.
Yes, and they should knock that shit off.
It has included pipe bombs and M-16’s. Used by those people that are now professors, as you say.
To be honest, I just don’t see 60’s and 70’s era New Left violence as relevant.
Equivalence is surely not what we are talking about here. I saw one specific report of violence In Charlottesville, the car. Everything else was a fight broke out or violence erupted. It is your assumption as to who started it.
I imagine the fights were started, with equal glee and vigor, by both the supremacists and antifas.
Based on your steel toed boots and goggles can I assume you are willing to throw a punch? Cause that’s how the other guys are dressing too.
My boots aren’t steel toed, they’re just stout. I’m wearing those and goggles because, based on what we saw last week, I wouldn’t be surprised if things got ugly. Boots are to protect my feet, goggles are to protect my eyes.
I’m not throwing a punch at anybody. If somebody hits my wife, probably then, but it won’t matter if it’s a Nazi or an antifas who does it. Hit my wife and I come after you. Other than that, I’m just trying to keep myself and my wife in one piece.
We plan to stand and be present. Then we’ll go have dinner.
And I haven’t started on antifa or whatever.
I am not a fan of antifas.
The evil here is violence.
Violence is one of the evils.
Another of the evils is the desire to deny anyone who isn’t The Right Kind Of Person the right to exist in the United States of America.
Black Lives Matter aren’t trying to do that.
Campus social justice warriors aren’t trying to do that.
I’m not trying to do that.
Nazis, white supremacists, neo-confederates, and their ilk, are trying to do that.
What they want is a United States with no black, brown, Jewish, gay, or lesbian people in it.
The violence is just a handy way to make that happen.
I’m not a fan of antifas, because I think they only make stuff worse, but at least they’re not trying to pick on people who aren’t trying to pick on somebody else.
So, advantage antifas, in my book. You can keep your own score as it suits you.
It does include violently attacking professors. It does include using violent demonstrations to intimidate campus speakers.
Yes, and they should knock that shit off.
It has included pipe bombs and M-16’s. Used by those people that are now professors, as you say.
To be honest, I just don’t see 60’s and 70’s era New Left violence as relevant.
Equivalence is surely not what we are talking about here. I saw one specific report of violence In Charlottesville, the car. Everything else was a fight broke out or violence erupted. It is your assumption as to who started it.
I imagine the fights were started, with equal glee and vigor, by both the supremacists and antifas.
Based on your steel toed boots and goggles can I assume you are willing to throw a punch? Cause that’s how the other guys are dressing too.
My boots aren’t steel toed, they’re just stout. I’m wearing those and goggles because, based on what we saw last week, I wouldn’t be surprised if things got ugly. Boots are to protect my feet, goggles are to protect my eyes.
I’m not throwing a punch at anybody. If somebody hits my wife, probably then, but it won’t matter if it’s a Nazi or an antifas who does it. Hit my wife and I come after you. Other than that, I’m just trying to keep myself and my wife in one piece.
We plan to stand and be present. Then we’ll go have dinner.
And I haven’t started on antifa or whatever.
I am not a fan of antifas.
The evil here is violence.
Violence is one of the evils.
Another of the evils is the desire to deny anyone who isn’t The Right Kind Of Person the right to exist in the United States of America.
Black Lives Matter aren’t trying to do that.
Campus social justice warriors aren’t trying to do that.
I’m not trying to do that.
Nazis, white supremacists, neo-confederates, and their ilk, are trying to do that.
What they want is a United States with no black, brown, Jewish, gay, or lesbian people in it.
The violence is just a handy way to make that happen.
I’m not a fan of antifas, because I think they only make stuff worse, but at least they’re not trying to pick on people who aren’t trying to pick on somebody else.
So, advantage antifas, in my book. You can keep your own score as it suits you.
from my FB feed:
they definitely picked the wrong actor to say that last line – that’s not ‘centrism’, that’s a mix of people who want to make it impossible to tell the other people apart, along with people who just don’t care to look. but the rest seems right on.
from my FB feed:
they definitely picked the wrong actor to say that last line – that’s not ‘centrism’, that’s a mix of people who want to make it impossible to tell the other people apart, along with people who just don’t care to look. but the rest seems right on.
European perspective, ‘hire/fire at will’ seems a pretty brutal policy.
The easier it is to be fired, the easier it is to get hired. Employers will be more careful and less likely to take a chance on someone by hiring them if it’s going to be difficult to fire them. Except for government jobs where there’s less concern for the impact of bad employees on the bottom line.
European perspective, ‘hire/fire at will’ seems a pretty brutal policy.
The easier it is to be fired, the easier it is to get hired. Employers will be more careful and less likely to take a chance on someone by hiring them if it’s going to be difficult to fire them. Except for government jobs where there’s less concern for the impact of bad employees on the bottom line.
(now why would it strip line feeds out of that?)
Nazis: let’s commit genocide
antifa: let’s not
BLM: please stop shooting me
Centrist: i can’t tell these people apart
(now why would it strip line feeds out of that?)
Nazis: let’s commit genocide
antifa: let’s not
BLM: please stop shooting me
Centrist: i can’t tell these people apart
Besides maybe I can sell the video.
Be careful. People have been attacked for filming at some of these events.
Besides maybe I can sell the video.
Be careful. People have been attacked for filming at some of these events.
Yeah I know, I’m the crazy one.
Hey man, do whatever you like, but don’t give me shit for showing up.
I’m going with a bunch of people from my church. We’re Unitarians. We’re likely to bore both the Nazis and the antifas to death with our endless choruses of Kum By Yah and This Little Light Of Mine. We’ll probably have seven ad-hoc committee meetings about whether to stand in line or sprinkle our presence artfully about the Common.
What a bunch of stupid candy-ass liberals we are! Talk about “owning” stuff, I’m fine with owning that. We’re a bunch of well-meaning do-gooders. Come to our bake sale.
But we’re showing the hell up. Fucking Nazis are coming to our city, we’re going to show up and be obvious non-Nazis. FWIW. If some smart-ass, on either side, decides to fire off some pepper spray, I want to be able to see well enough to walk away. So I’m bringing goggles.
Big fucking deal.
You go stand in the middle, if that’s where you think you need to be. I’m not in the middle on this issue, so I’ll be where I think I need to be.
To each his own.
Yeah I know, I’m the crazy one.
Hey man, do whatever you like, but don’t give me shit for showing up.
I’m going with a bunch of people from my church. We’re Unitarians. We’re likely to bore both the Nazis and the antifas to death with our endless choruses of Kum By Yah and This Little Light Of Mine. We’ll probably have seven ad-hoc committee meetings about whether to stand in line or sprinkle our presence artfully about the Common.
What a bunch of stupid candy-ass liberals we are! Talk about “owning” stuff, I’m fine with owning that. We’re a bunch of well-meaning do-gooders. Come to our bake sale.
But we’re showing the hell up. Fucking Nazis are coming to our city, we’re going to show up and be obvious non-Nazis. FWIW. If some smart-ass, on either side, decides to fire off some pepper spray, I want to be able to see well enough to walk away. So I’m bringing goggles.
Big fucking deal.
You go stand in the middle, if that’s where you think you need to be. I’m not in the middle on this issue, so I’ll be where I think I need to be.
To each his own.
I think we should just fill up the Common with people. Let’s don’t call it a counter protest, just have a million people show up, smoke pot, no alcohol, listen to music, dance, take all the space.
It’s Saturday on the Common. Don’t give them any place to be. Just have a million people ignore them.
I am not criticizing you russell. Be safe.
I think we should just fill up the Common with people. Let’s don’t call it a counter protest, just have a million people show up, smoke pot, no alcohol, listen to music, dance, take all the space.
It’s Saturday on the Common. Don’t give them any place to be. Just have a million people ignore them.
I am not criticizing you russell. Be safe.
I don’t, and won’t, have to pick a side. I did stop beating my wife though…
It’s not remotely the same sort of question-begging. If it were, I wouldn’t be able to answer it, either. But I can – quite easily.
I’m no fan of either side, but I’d go with the antifas in a heartbeat if push came to shove.
(See how easy that was?)
I don’t, and won’t, have to pick a side. I did stop beating my wife though…
It’s not remotely the same sort of question-begging. If it were, I wouldn’t be able to answer it, either. But I can – quite easily.
I’m no fan of either side, but I’d go with the antifas in a heartbeat if push came to shove.
(See how easy that was?)
All of which is to say that I can meet the low bar of not being an ethno-nationalist, white-supremacist, neo-Nazi, KKK a$$hole. Yay for me!
All of which is to say that I can meet the low bar of not being an ethno-nationalist, white-supremacist, neo-Nazi, KKK a$$hole. Yay for me!
“The easier it is to be fired, the easier it is to get hired…”
It’s a view, Charles.
Not one I hold, but if you do, then you don’t get to complain about guys getting fired for substandard memos…
“The easier it is to be fired, the easier it is to get hired…”
It’s a view, Charles.
Not one I hold, but if you do, then you don’t get to complain about guys getting fired for substandard memos…
No Nigel, that part is fact.
No Nigel, that part is fact.
hsh, I am neither that nor a subversive a$$hole prepared to incite violence to gain marginal political advantage even at the cost of someone’s life.
Yay me.
hsh, I am neither that nor a subversive a$$hole prepared to incite violence to gain marginal political advantage even at the cost of someone’s life.
Yay me.
Nazis: let’s commit genocide
antifa: let’s not
BLM: please stop shooting me
Marty: i can’t tell these people apart
(to be taken as friendly ribbing)
Nazis: let’s commit genocide
antifa: let’s not
BLM: please stop shooting me
Marty: i can’t tell these people apart
(to be taken as friendly ribbing)
To be fair, it’s more like:
Nazis: let’s commit genocide
antifas: let’s beat the crap out of people who say they want to commit genocide
BLM: quit shooting us you bastards
My issue with antifas is that they give the Nazis exactly what they want.
To be fair, it’s more like:
Nazis: let’s commit genocide
antifas: let’s beat the crap out of people who say they want to commit genocide
BLM: quit shooting us you bastards
My issue with antifas is that they give the Nazis exactly what they want.
Nazis: let’s commit genocide
antifas: let’s beat the crap out of people who say they want to commit genocide
BLM: quit shooting us you bastards
Marty: let’s smoke some weed
Nazis: let’s commit genocide
antifas: let’s beat the crap out of people who say they want to commit genocide
BLM: quit shooting us you bastards
Marty: let’s smoke some weed
a dozen years ago, a group of about 30 Nazis & KKK came to Raleigh and held a rally on the capitol grounds. they were met with thousands upon thousands of protestors who booed and laughed and yelled at them. lots of noise. but otherwise peaceful. but it was the black bloc (now ‘antifa’) crowd that threw things and lit the smoke bombs that caused me to leave.
http://ok-cleek.com/images/Nazis/thumbs/DSC_0065.htm
they’re assholes and do nothing useful for anybody.
a dozen years ago, a group of about 30 Nazis & KKK came to Raleigh and held a rally on the capitol grounds. they were met with thousands upon thousands of protestors who booed and laughed and yelled at them. lots of noise. but otherwise peaceful. but it was the black bloc (now ‘antifa’) crowd that threw things and lit the smoke bombs that caused me to leave.
http://ok-cleek.com/images/Nazis/thumbs/DSC_0065.htm
they’re assholes and do nothing useful for anybody.
Nazis: let’s commit genocide
antifas: let’s beat the crap out of people who say they want to commit genocide or anyone else in the neighborhood
BLM: quit shooting us you bastards or we’ll shoot back.
Marty: let’s smoke some weed, what is all that noise? Fireworks?
I like this one.
Nazis: let’s commit genocide
antifas: let’s beat the crap out of people who say they want to commit genocide or anyone else in the neighborhood
BLM: quit shooting us you bastards or we’ll shoot back.
Marty: let’s smoke some weed, what is all that noise? Fireworks?
I like this one.
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/08/a-question-for-google-ceo-sundar-pichai/536535/
http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exaggerated-differences/
The first link is fairly short. The second is not. Cleek and his friends will not read–or if they do, they will not understand–either piece. Or the thing at Google that got it started. That’s fine. Cleek is the Trolls’ Troll. Everyone who disagrees with him or has a conflicting view is in bad faith.
For the record, James Damore, age 28, wasn’t fired for airing his political views. He was fired specifically for the substance of his view. His basic position was that Google’s rather obsessive preoccupation with female under-representation in computer engineering was a waste of time if not counter-productive because fewer women choose to go into computer science. The second link, for those willing to take the time to read it, illustrates with copious statistics that women are over-represented in a large number of former male bastions and under-represented in others and this is not the product of male tyranny but rather women’s collective preference. Regarding computer engineering specifically, the male/female ration of degrees is roughly 80/20. This is true in Europe as well. Female representation in the STEM professions generally is analyzed at great length and, contrary to lefty conventional wisdom, women do quite well. It also illustrates the widespread, pernicious bullying of the SJW movement (Cleek is very much in the SJW mode) that produces the Google type environments.
MCTX, if an attorney in your firm distributed a firm-wide memo opining that all white males suck on account of what science has learned about my brain what then?
Would the person make partner?
Hey Count. For reasons not germane to this discussion, that is unlikely because of our heavy emphasis on collegiality and respect for other’s space and privacy. But, it could happen. Assuming there were no other performance issues and that the author otherwise worked and played well in the sandbox and wasn’t routinely forcing his/her views on others (which seems to be the case at Google) and assuming further that person was not already a partner, the almost certain reaction would be to counsel that person on the impropriety of imposing his/her views on others at work, and then monitor that person informally for a few months. Pretty much the same thing if that person was a partner (we’ve had several partner-wide emails that were less than 100% complimentary of firm management — of which I am 20% — and that is a partner’s right, so nothing was done other than discuss the issues raised a partners’ meeting).
It is a given that notions of white supremacy are abhorrent. Notwithstanding the utter and complete douchebaggary, a la Cleek, of accusing every conservative of being in league with white supremacy, WS *is* very much a thing and it *does* very much merit the full attention of law enforcement (and all of the rest of us) who, again discounting the douchebaggary of some, are not uniformly or even measurably in the white supremacy camp.
Once the alt-right is fully called out and exposed for who they are, their public numbers and roles will dwindle and their views will be even further marginalized. The same is not true for the PC bullies. They grow more stronger and more numerous every day.
PS, Ugh, I had your comment in mind when I went back to find these links. I hope you read them.
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/08/a-question-for-google-ceo-sundar-pichai/536535/
http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exaggerated-differences/
The first link is fairly short. The second is not. Cleek and his friends will not read–or if they do, they will not understand–either piece. Or the thing at Google that got it started. That’s fine. Cleek is the Trolls’ Troll. Everyone who disagrees with him or has a conflicting view is in bad faith.
For the record, James Damore, age 28, wasn’t fired for airing his political views. He was fired specifically for the substance of his view. His basic position was that Google’s rather obsessive preoccupation with female under-representation in computer engineering was a waste of time if not counter-productive because fewer women choose to go into computer science. The second link, for those willing to take the time to read it, illustrates with copious statistics that women are over-represented in a large number of former male bastions and under-represented in others and this is not the product of male tyranny but rather women’s collective preference. Regarding computer engineering specifically, the male/female ration of degrees is roughly 80/20. This is true in Europe as well. Female representation in the STEM professions generally is analyzed at great length and, contrary to lefty conventional wisdom, women do quite well. It also illustrates the widespread, pernicious bullying of the SJW movement (Cleek is very much in the SJW mode) that produces the Google type environments.
MCTX, if an attorney in your firm distributed a firm-wide memo opining that all white males suck on account of what science has learned about my brain what then?
Would the person make partner?
Hey Count. For reasons not germane to this discussion, that is unlikely because of our heavy emphasis on collegiality and respect for other’s space and privacy. But, it could happen. Assuming there were no other performance issues and that the author otherwise worked and played well in the sandbox and wasn’t routinely forcing his/her views on others (which seems to be the case at Google) and assuming further that person was not already a partner, the almost certain reaction would be to counsel that person on the impropriety of imposing his/her views on others at work, and then monitor that person informally for a few months. Pretty much the same thing if that person was a partner (we’ve had several partner-wide emails that were less than 100% complimentary of firm management — of which I am 20% — and that is a partner’s right, so nothing was done other than discuss the issues raised a partners’ meeting).
It is a given that notions of white supremacy are abhorrent. Notwithstanding the utter and complete douchebaggary, a la Cleek, of accusing every conservative of being in league with white supremacy, WS *is* very much a thing and it *does* very much merit the full attention of law enforcement (and all of the rest of us) who, again discounting the douchebaggary of some, are not uniformly or even measurably in the white supremacy camp.
Once the alt-right is fully called out and exposed for who they are, their public numbers and roles will dwindle and their views will be even further marginalized. The same is not true for the PC bullies. They grow more stronger and more numerous every day.
PS, Ugh, I had your comment in mind when I went back to find these links. I hope you read them.
Everyone who disagrees with him or has a conflicting view is in bad faith.
lol. you’re such a hypocrite.
Everyone who disagrees with him or has a conflicting view is in bad faith.
lol. you’re such a hypocrite.
Once the alt-right is fully called out and exposed for who they are, their public numbers and roles will dwindle and their views will be even further marginalized.
That’s my plan.
They’ve been pretty resurgent for the last couple of years, but running people over with your car makes the point that you’re a violent hateful bastard pretty eloquently. Sooner or later most folks will figure it out.
It’s just freaking pitiful that it took somebody actually getting killed for folks to get the wake up call.
As far as Google goes, I’m sure Damore will find another gig and retire a wealthy man. He’ll probably get a book contract and maybe even a think tank gig out of it.
If you’re gonna be persecuted, go for being persecuted by lefties. The upside is pretty sweet.
Once the alt-right is fully called out and exposed for who they are, their public numbers and roles will dwindle and their views will be even further marginalized.
That’s my plan.
They’ve been pretty resurgent for the last couple of years, but running people over with your car makes the point that you’re a violent hateful bastard pretty eloquently. Sooner or later most folks will figure it out.
It’s just freaking pitiful that it took somebody actually getting killed for folks to get the wake up call.
As far as Google goes, I’m sure Damore will find another gig and retire a wealthy man. He’ll probably get a book contract and maybe even a think tank gig out of it.
If you’re gonna be persecuted, go for being persecuted by lefties. The upside is pretty sweet.
His basic position was that Google’s rather obsessive preoccupation with female under-representation in computer engineering was a waste of time if not counter-productive because fewer women choose to go into computer science.
FWIW, this is maybe a kinda-sorta interesting point. But it basically begs the question.
The argument that women are represented less because they just don’t happen to ‘like writing code’ fails to address the reasons that women might not like ‘writing code’. Those reasons might not, in fact, have much to do with the actual craft of writing code, and instead have lots to do with the culture of the community of people who have, historically, written code.
And maybe nobody would really give a crap either way – there are fields where men are under-represented, too – except tech is one of the few industries where a good practicioner can (a) reliably find work and (b) get paid well enough to have a pretty good to very good quality of life.
And I’m sure there are lots of women would be interested in both (a) and (b).
The shops I’ve worked in have had a male/female balance anywhere from 20/80 to 50/50. I’ve worked under men and women. I don’t see a difference in the ability of either gender, or in the productivity or quality of the work product of either gender.
Biologically determined aptitude is not the issue. Which is why it’s worth asking what the issue is. Because everybody would like to have a job that offers them a future.
Doesn’t have to be coding, but it ain’t a bad option.
His basic position was that Google’s rather obsessive preoccupation with female under-representation in computer engineering was a waste of time if not counter-productive because fewer women choose to go into computer science.
FWIW, this is maybe a kinda-sorta interesting point. But it basically begs the question.
The argument that women are represented less because they just don’t happen to ‘like writing code’ fails to address the reasons that women might not like ‘writing code’. Those reasons might not, in fact, have much to do with the actual craft of writing code, and instead have lots to do with the culture of the community of people who have, historically, written code.
And maybe nobody would really give a crap either way – there are fields where men are under-represented, too – except tech is one of the few industries where a good practicioner can (a) reliably find work and (b) get paid well enough to have a pretty good to very good quality of life.
And I’m sure there are lots of women would be interested in both (a) and (b).
The shops I’ve worked in have had a male/female balance anywhere from 20/80 to 50/50. I’ve worked under men and women. I don’t see a difference in the ability of either gender, or in the productivity or quality of the work product of either gender.
Biologically determined aptitude is not the issue. Which is why it’s worth asking what the issue is. Because everybody would like to have a job that offers them a future.
Doesn’t have to be coding, but it ain’t a bad option.
This is an article that might cast some light on wrs. Oh, also, wrs.
This is an article that might cast some light on wrs. Oh, also, wrs.
I’ve worked under men and women. I don’t see a difference in the ability of either gender, or in the productivity or quality of the work product of either gender.
Amen to that.
I’ve worked under men and women. I don’t see a difference in the ability of either gender, or in the productivity or quality of the work product of either gender.
Amen to that.
FWIW, this is maybe a kinda-sorta interesting point. But it basically begs the question.
The argument that women are represented less because they just don’t happen to ‘like writing code’ fails to address the reasons that women might not like ‘writing code’. Those reasons might not, in fact, have much to do with the actual craft of writing code, and instead have lots to do with the culture of the community of people who have, historically, written code.
The second link addresses this in detail. In very short form: today, many previously all male or predominantly male fields are majority women, some being fairly significant majorities. This is due to choice. There are some differences between the sexes. In a very general sense, men are drawn to *things*, women to *people*. There are many exceptions, and the exceptions account for differing participation levels across professions. It makes no sense for men to be fine with a majority of women entering veterinary medicine, family medicine, psychology and the like but to have dropped the gates on computer science and engineering in general. These are really the only two areas outside of military and ‘danger’ jobs that women are not at least equal in participation.
Further on the female participation rates in CS: as I said above, the same participation rates obtain in Europe, roughly 80/20. They do not obtain in dictatorships, where the state chooses for its citizens what they will study. The least free countries have the highest female participation rates. It’s choice vs no choice. Women today apparently prefer other areas to CS. Why is this a problem?
The second link has a lot to say and says it with tons of documentation.
FWIW, this is maybe a kinda-sorta interesting point. But it basically begs the question.
The argument that women are represented less because they just don’t happen to ‘like writing code’ fails to address the reasons that women might not like ‘writing code’. Those reasons might not, in fact, have much to do with the actual craft of writing code, and instead have lots to do with the culture of the community of people who have, historically, written code.
The second link addresses this in detail. In very short form: today, many previously all male or predominantly male fields are majority women, some being fairly significant majorities. This is due to choice. There are some differences between the sexes. In a very general sense, men are drawn to *things*, women to *people*. There are many exceptions, and the exceptions account for differing participation levels across professions. It makes no sense for men to be fine with a majority of women entering veterinary medicine, family medicine, psychology and the like but to have dropped the gates on computer science and engineering in general. These are really the only two areas outside of military and ‘danger’ jobs that women are not at least equal in participation.
Further on the female participation rates in CS: as I said above, the same participation rates obtain in Europe, roughly 80/20. They do not obtain in dictatorships, where the state chooses for its citizens what they will study. The least free countries have the highest female participation rates. It’s choice vs no choice. Women today apparently prefer other areas to CS. Why is this a problem?
The second link has a lot to say and says it with tons of documentation.
Sorry, Marty, what part “is fact” ?
Sorry, Marty, what part “is fact” ?
It’s just freaking pitiful that it took somebody actually getting killed for folks to get the wake up call.
i would like to think things will change, but racist right wing terrorists have killed dozens of people in the past few years and what changed? some flags got taken down, a statue or two was moved. but, maybe this will be the straw.
Dylann Roof, motivated by racism, killed nine completely innocent people in cold blood just a couple of years ago. many of us were angry, for a while. and the SC capitol had its flag taken down.
at least we had a President, then, who could recognize and condemn evil without being badgered about it.
—
of the technical departments i regularly interact with where i work, two out of the three managers are women. i work with plenty of women coders. i ask them for help and advice all the time. if i sent my colleagues a pop-evo-psych screed claiming that women were biologically less likely to succeed in the company, i’d be fired that day. no doubt about it, and nobody would give it a second thought.
it’s completely preposterous that any employer would allow that to stand – ok maybe you could get away with it in an all-male shop of ten people. but in general, nobody is going to let someone with such a ridiculous disregard for his fellow employees stay there and antagonize everyone else.
the fact that “conservatives” are defending it isn’t surprising at all. knee-jerk reactionaries are going to react, and the sexist asshollery that gave us gamergate and excused Trump’s ‘pussy tape’ (and his lusting after his daughter, and his vile attacks on women) is going to keep on excusing.
luckily, most employers aren’t “conservative” assholes – or they at least know it’s bad for business to run their companies that way.
It’s just freaking pitiful that it took somebody actually getting killed for folks to get the wake up call.
i would like to think things will change, but racist right wing terrorists have killed dozens of people in the past few years and what changed? some flags got taken down, a statue or two was moved. but, maybe this will be the straw.
Dylann Roof, motivated by racism, killed nine completely innocent people in cold blood just a couple of years ago. many of us were angry, for a while. and the SC capitol had its flag taken down.
at least we had a President, then, who could recognize and condemn evil without being badgered about it.
—
of the technical departments i regularly interact with where i work, two out of the three managers are women. i work with plenty of women coders. i ask them for help and advice all the time. if i sent my colleagues a pop-evo-psych screed claiming that women were biologically less likely to succeed in the company, i’d be fired that day. no doubt about it, and nobody would give it a second thought.
it’s completely preposterous that any employer would allow that to stand – ok maybe you could get away with it in an all-male shop of ten people. but in general, nobody is going to let someone with such a ridiculous disregard for his fellow employees stay there and antagonize everyone else.
the fact that “conservatives” are defending it isn’t surprising at all. knee-jerk reactionaries are going to react, and the sexist asshollery that gave us gamergate and excused Trump’s ‘pussy tape’ (and his lusting after his daughter, and his vile attacks on women) is going to keep on excusing.
luckily, most employers aren’t “conservative” assholes – or they at least know it’s bad for business to run their companies that way.
The easier it is to get fired, the easier it us to get hired. Having managed operations in Europe, the US, Canada and Mexico plus varying states in the US, across the board hiring was easier in each place where firing was easier…except Sweden where hiring and firing were a public/private cooperative activity.
When you are offering someone a job for as long as they want it, the process slows way down
The easier it is to get fired, the easier it us to get hired. Having managed operations in Europe, the US, Canada and Mexico plus varying states in the US, across the board hiring was easier in each place where firing was easier…except Sweden where hiring and firing were a public/private cooperative activity.
When you are offering someone a job for as long as they want it, the process slows way down
This is an article that might cast some light on wrs. Oh, also, wrs.
The article addresses whether women who actually get engineering degrees either purse an engineering career or who remain in that career. It does not address the percentage of women who choose to study engineering.
The article is anecdotal, depending almost entirely on personal histories and then mostly if not only on histories that tell the story from one perspective, that being the marginalized female.
A useful study–if there isn’t already one–would be to interview a representative cross section of women who have entered engineering in the last ten years with two cohorts in mind: those who still practice and those who do not and find out what is good and bad across the industry, if there is a good/bad.
This is an article that might cast some light on wrs. Oh, also, wrs.
The article addresses whether women who actually get engineering degrees either purse an engineering career or who remain in that career. It does not address the percentage of women who choose to study engineering.
The article is anecdotal, depending almost entirely on personal histories and then mostly if not only on histories that tell the story from one perspective, that being the marginalized female.
A useful study–if there isn’t already one–would be to interview a representative cross section of women who have entered engineering in the last ten years with two cohorts in mind: those who still practice and those who do not and find out what is good and bad across the industry, if there is a good/bad.
Just to be clear, as far as I can tell (though I could be missing something), Google isn’t saying that employees cannot hold, or even express, a particular opinion on an issue. What they are saying is that employees cannot promulgate those opinions using company resources.
That is, I submit, a significantly different position from those companies who are choosing to fire employees for participating in the demonstrations at Charlottesville. Which, be it noted, they were doing on their own time and at their own expense.
Just to be clear, as far as I can tell (though I could be missing something), Google isn’t saying that employees cannot hold, or even express, a particular opinion on an issue. What they are saying is that employees cannot promulgate those opinions using company resources.
That is, I submit, a significantly different position from those companies who are choosing to fire employees for participating in the demonstrations at Charlottesville. Which, be it noted, they were doing on their own time and at their own expense.
McKinney, it’s good to see you back again.
I’ve just got in from driving to London, catching up and so haven’t had a chance to read your links, but I’m guessing that unless they’re all in software/code-type lingo, I’ll understand them. I heard a radio program a couple of days ago with an interview of an interesting older woman who had been a coder at a high level in her youth, but had left companies twice (the first time one gathered because of sexual harassment, the second time because she faced some other difficulty which I now cannot remember). She quit, and started her own, very successful software company (she was quite funny about how people were at the beginning “What a crazy idea, who would buy software? Software is what we give away with the hardware.”) This is her Wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Shirley
The interview was followed by an academic talking about her research into how women were heavily in the majority at the beginning of the computing revolution (40s 50s and 60s, not even going back to Ada Lovelace), at least in the UK, but were systematically made a special case even in the civil service, with its otherwise focus on equal pay, in order to be paid less than men. And how gradually this led to women leaving the profession.
As for calling cleek a troll, I would only say that he was simlarly insulted by NV, and she was coming from the opposite end of the spectrum. He must have quite a confrontational style. But perhaps personal insults are an unhelpful way forward? (I am not singling you out with this remark).
McKinney, it’s good to see you back again.
I’ve just got in from driving to London, catching up and so haven’t had a chance to read your links, but I’m guessing that unless they’re all in software/code-type lingo, I’ll understand them. I heard a radio program a couple of days ago with an interview of an interesting older woman who had been a coder at a high level in her youth, but had left companies twice (the first time one gathered because of sexual harassment, the second time because she faced some other difficulty which I now cannot remember). She quit, and started her own, very successful software company (she was quite funny about how people were at the beginning “What a crazy idea, who would buy software? Software is what we give away with the hardware.”) This is her Wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Shirley
The interview was followed by an academic talking about her research into how women were heavily in the majority at the beginning of the computing revolution (40s 50s and 60s, not even going back to Ada Lovelace), at least in the UK, but were systematically made a special case even in the civil service, with its otherwise focus on equal pay, in order to be paid less than men. And how gradually this led to women leaving the profession.
As for calling cleek a troll, I would only say that he was simlarly insulted by NV, and she was coming from the opposite end of the spectrum. He must have quite a confrontational style. But perhaps personal insults are an unhelpful way forward? (I am not singling you out with this remark).
Women today apparently prefer other areas to CS. Why is this a problem?
they just “prefer” it, ex nihilo ? nothing influenced their preference? it was … biological ?
that’s mighty convenient.
Women today apparently prefer other areas to CS. Why is this a problem?
they just “prefer” it, ex nihilo ? nothing influenced their preference? it was … biological ?
that’s mighty convenient.
This is due to choice.
What part of “begs the question” did you not understand?
if i sent my colleagues a pop-evo-psych screed claiming that women were biologically less likely to succeed in the company, i’d be fired that day.
Same here.
Everybody needs something to rant about. For me, it’s Nazis. For McK, it’s apparently social justice warriors.
I like my obsessions better.
This is due to choice.
What part of “begs the question” did you not understand?
if i sent my colleagues a pop-evo-psych screed claiming that women were biologically less likely to succeed in the company, i’d be fired that day.
Same here.
Everybody needs something to rant about. For me, it’s Nazis. For McK, it’s apparently social justice warriors.
I like my obsessions better.
(I am not singling you out with this remark)
I should have made clear: you’ve been the target of plenty of personal insults in your time here!
(I am not singling you out with this remark)
I should have made clear: you’ve been the target of plenty of personal insults in your time here!
What they are saying is that employees cannot promulgate those opinions using company resources.
No, that is not what they are saying. If that were the case, there would be no issue. The HR VP and the CEO specifically stated the decision to terminate was content related. Period, full stop. The decision was made *after* a deluge of SJW style emails demanded the guy’s head. They got it.
What they are saying is that employees cannot promulgate those opinions using company resources.
No, that is not what they are saying. If that were the case, there would be no issue. The HR VP and the CEO specifically stated the decision to terminate was content related. Period, full stop. The decision was made *after* a deluge of SJW style emails demanded the guy’s head. They got it.
The decision was made *after* a deluge of SJW style emails demanded the guy’s head.
So: I will ask the question again.
An attorney in your office circulates a multi-page email explaining exactly why more women are not attorneys.
They just don’t choose to be attorneys. It’s too adversarial, they find it hard to not be nice to everyone, because they’re so nurturing.
What happens?
What happens if 75% of your staff pings you with messages saying this guy goes or they do?
What happens if some of your larger clients get wind of this and let you know in no uncertain terms that they don’t want to do business with companies that hire guys like that?
What happens?
If the guy is let go, are you being a SJW?
If he is disciplined in some way – taken off the fast track for partner, taken off of some client accounts, put on the professional back burner fo a while – are you being a SJW?
Google didn’t want the guy working for them. His attitudes and beliefs were inconsistent with their work culture, ethics, and standards.
So they cut him loose.
You might not agree with their work culture, ethics, and standards, but it ain’t your company.
The decision was made *after* a deluge of SJW style emails demanded the guy’s head.
So: I will ask the question again.
An attorney in your office circulates a multi-page email explaining exactly why more women are not attorneys.
They just don’t choose to be attorneys. It’s too adversarial, they find it hard to not be nice to everyone, because they’re so nurturing.
What happens?
What happens if 75% of your staff pings you with messages saying this guy goes or they do?
What happens if some of your larger clients get wind of this and let you know in no uncertain terms that they don’t want to do business with companies that hire guys like that?
What happens?
If the guy is let go, are you being a SJW?
If he is disciplined in some way – taken off the fast track for partner, taken off of some client accounts, put on the professional back burner fo a while – are you being a SJW?
Google didn’t want the guy working for them. His attitudes and beliefs were inconsistent with their work culture, ethics, and standards.
So they cut him loose.
You might not agree with their work culture, ethics, and standards, but it ain’t your company.
The decision was made *after* a deluge of SJW style emails demanded the guy’s head. They got it.
Correlation is not causation!
Why, otherwise a bunch of Republicans showing up at a KKK/Nazi rally would mean that Republicans are KKK/Nazis, and that’s just plain unpossible.
The decision was made *after* a deluge of SJW style emails demanded the guy’s head. They got it.
Correlation is not causation!
Why, otherwise a bunch of Republicans showing up at a KKK/Nazi rally would mean that Republicans are KKK/Nazis, and that’s just plain unpossible.
I like both cleek’s and McTX’s offerings here. NV rubbed me the wrong way with her explanations of her voting strategies. Not that she did what she did, but that she felt compelled to keep us breathlessly abreast of a cracked rationale for electing rump.
Besides, cleek has a law that remains operative, unlike Godwin’s, who has thrown in the towel.
Rump said today that Bannon has been treated by the fake news very very frankly very unfairly.
He could have stopped at frankly.
He also said there were many many, very many folks, exactly the same number as attended his inauguration, at the Virginia Protest who were not strictly Nazis but had a soft spot for Robert E. Lee, except for the part wherein Lee surrendered.
Herman Goehring, John Wilkes Boothe, Mussolini’s mistress, Lester Maddox, folks like that, who showed up for the food trucks and the after-party lynchings. Fascists just want to have fun.
In closing, Marty’s recent remarks on this thread place him on the Grateful Dead end of the republican spectrum.
I like both cleek’s and McTX’s offerings here. NV rubbed me the wrong way with her explanations of her voting strategies. Not that she did what she did, but that she felt compelled to keep us breathlessly abreast of a cracked rationale for electing rump.
Besides, cleek has a law that remains operative, unlike Godwin’s, who has thrown in the towel.
Rump said today that Bannon has been treated by the fake news very very frankly very unfairly.
He could have stopped at frankly.
He also said there were many many, very many folks, exactly the same number as attended his inauguration, at the Virginia Protest who were not strictly Nazis but had a soft spot for Robert E. Lee, except for the part wherein Lee surrendered.
Herman Goehring, John Wilkes Boothe, Mussolini’s mistress, Lester Maddox, folks like that, who showed up for the food trucks and the after-party lynchings. Fascists just want to have fun.
In closing, Marty’s recent remarks on this thread place him on the Grateful Dead end of the republican spectrum.
“What happens if 75% of your staff pings you with messages saying this guy goes or they do?
What happens if some of your larger clients get wind of this and let you know in no uncertain terms that they don’t want to do business with companies that hire guys like that?
What happens?”
So, I guess you missed the part where this stuff, right here, was the problem? That people feeling like they had a right to demand someones job for a personal opinion is the fncking issue? That you have to agree with the company line on social issues or they can fire you? And more, your coworkers are such snowflakes they feel like they have the right to request you be fired?
WHAT did you miss?
“What happens if 75% of your staff pings you with messages saying this guy goes or they do?
What happens if some of your larger clients get wind of this and let you know in no uncertain terms that they don’t want to do business with companies that hire guys like that?
What happens?”
So, I guess you missed the part where this stuff, right here, was the problem? That people feeling like they had a right to demand someones job for a personal opinion is the fncking issue? That you have to agree with the company line on social issues or they can fire you? And more, your coworkers are such snowflakes they feel like they have the right to request you be fired?
WHAT did you miss?
Marty, I think that’s what probationary periods are intended for.
Clearly there is a continuum of employment protection (France, for example recognises that it has gone too far in the other direction, and is grappling with how to resolve that), but the US is pretty far to the extreme end.
Making life too easy for lazy or irresponsible employers isn’t what I regard as a societal priority. (That is not directed at you, as I have no idea of your particular circumstances.)
Marty, I think that’s what probationary periods are intended for.
Clearly there is a continuum of employment protection (France, for example recognises that it has gone too far in the other direction, and is grappling with how to resolve that), but the US is pretty far to the extreme end.
Making life too easy for lazy or irresponsible employers isn’t what I regard as a societal priority. (That is not directed at you, as I have no idea of your particular circumstances.)
That you have to agree with the company line on social issues or they can fire you?
You have to agree with the company line on social issues AS THEY APPLY TO THE WORKPLACE, as stated as a MATTER OF COMPANY POLICY.
Yeah, you pretty much have to do that. Or, if you don’t you pretty much need to not publicize your differences in corporate email.
Welcome to the modern workplace. We all get trained on this stuff now, it’s part of the deal.
You might not agree with Google’s social stance, and you might not agree with their integrating it into their corporate policies, but it ain’t your company.
Nobody makes anybody work there.
There are a wide variety of things you aren’t allowed to fire people for. Publicly taking exception to their personnel policies is not one of them.
That you have to agree with the company line on social issues or they can fire you?
You have to agree with the company line on social issues AS THEY APPLY TO THE WORKPLACE, as stated as a MATTER OF COMPANY POLICY.
Yeah, you pretty much have to do that. Or, if you don’t you pretty much need to not publicize your differences in corporate email.
Welcome to the modern workplace. We all get trained on this stuff now, it’s part of the deal.
You might not agree with Google’s social stance, and you might not agree with their integrating it into their corporate policies, but it ain’t your company.
Nobody makes anybody work there.
There are a wide variety of things you aren’t allowed to fire people for. Publicly taking exception to their personnel policies is not one of them.
Nigel,
one example: Ten years ago, maybe 15, it was essentially impossible to fire someone in Sweden. You had to give them a years notice and keep them employed for the year, you couldn’t even pay a years pay and let them go. I presume to prevent a significant break in their work history or create government obligations of some sort.
When discussing hiring someone, not an individual just opening a position, it was a really long and difficult justification process. To the point where short term revenue was often sacrificed because it wasn’t worth the risk to hire.
EX 2:I didn’t have any situations like this in Europe but in Canada we had a sales person in a territory go out on maternity leave, quite a blow in a medium size company to not have your only sales person for 12 months. What’s more the averages made it a 50-50 shot that at the end of 12 months she would return.
But, after reviewing the options for potentially having to terminate someone when she returned we let that territory languish for the 12 months with minimal sales support from HQ. In the US we wouldn’t have hesitated to bring on another sales person, and probably ended up keeping both if they were good.
Harder to hire when it is harder to fire.
Nigel,
one example: Ten years ago, maybe 15, it was essentially impossible to fire someone in Sweden. You had to give them a years notice and keep them employed for the year, you couldn’t even pay a years pay and let them go. I presume to prevent a significant break in their work history or create government obligations of some sort.
When discussing hiring someone, not an individual just opening a position, it was a really long and difficult justification process. To the point where short term revenue was often sacrificed because it wasn’t worth the risk to hire.
EX 2:I didn’t have any situations like this in Europe but in Canada we had a sales person in a territory go out on maternity leave, quite a blow in a medium size company to not have your only sales person for 12 months. What’s more the averages made it a 50-50 shot that at the end of 12 months she would return.
But, after reviewing the options for potentially having to terminate someone when she returned we let that territory languish for the 12 months with minimal sales support from HQ. In the US we wouldn’t have hesitated to bring on another sales person, and probably ended up keeping both if they were good.
Harder to hire when it is harder to fire.
russell, you are such an authoritarian.
russell, you are such an authoritarian.
So: I will ask the question again.
If you asked this question before, I missed it. I answered the Count’s question.
An attorney in your office circulates a multi-page email explaining exactly why more women are not attorneys.
This would be counter-factual. Women are half or more of law school students and are roughly half of the firm under age 50. The firm was started and is largely supported business-generating-wise by older men. Largely, not entirely. That is changing by the day. Further, if someone wrote something that stupid, he (I assume it’s a he) would be laughed at, because it would be a very stupid as in, factually incorrect, thing to say.
They just don’t choose to be attorneys. It’s too adversarial, they find it hard to not be nice to everyone, because they’re so nurturing.
This is a bit different. Like it or not, women do not gravitate to litigation–which is where the adversarial stuff really and truly is. Many just don’t like it. Two of the three female partners in the TX office are very upfront about this. They are in their late forties. As it happens, I have outstanding offers to five lateral partners, four of whom are women, and all are trial lawyers. Two are just at 40 and the older two are not representative of their age cohort.
What happens?
It depends on a lot of things. If you took the time to read, first, what Danmore had to say, then look at why he was fired–the actual language, not the reports of what was said–and then read the two links carefully, you would see that your very brief description bears virtually no relationship to the issues at Google which underlay my comments.
What happens if 75% of your staff pings you with messages saying this guy goes or they do?
First, I would be shocked at the vindictive, small-mindedness of my colleagues. They don’t operate this way. Most people I know don’t take it upon themselves to declare other’s points of view so abhorrent that if the dissenters aren’t fired, the others will quit. What a bunch of assholes my staff would be if this was the case. As it happens we have all political stripes and everyone gets along.
What happens if some of your larger clients get wind of this and let you know in no uncertain terms that they don’t want to do business with companies that hire guys like that?
Then I would say my clients are assholes too. I would say if we’ve come that far, it’s only one short step to firing people because they have a Clinton or a Trump sign in their front yard. Fuck that. And fuck a bunch of people who are so offended at someone’s departure from orthodoxy that he or she is no longer employable.
What happens?
The shit well and truly hits the fan if my job and every other non-PC but otherwise law-abiding citizen’s job is at the mercy of lefty twitter mobs getting their panties in a knot and hounding companies to fire employees or to refuse to do business with other smaller companies because the employee or company owner doesn’t buy into PC inerrancy.
And, the Orwellian myth of liberal tolerance would be well and truly exploded.
So: I will ask the question again.
If you asked this question before, I missed it. I answered the Count’s question.
An attorney in your office circulates a multi-page email explaining exactly why more women are not attorneys.
This would be counter-factual. Women are half or more of law school students and are roughly half of the firm under age 50. The firm was started and is largely supported business-generating-wise by older men. Largely, not entirely. That is changing by the day. Further, if someone wrote something that stupid, he (I assume it’s a he) would be laughed at, because it would be a very stupid as in, factually incorrect, thing to say.
They just don’t choose to be attorneys. It’s too adversarial, they find it hard to not be nice to everyone, because they’re so nurturing.
This is a bit different. Like it or not, women do not gravitate to litigation–which is where the adversarial stuff really and truly is. Many just don’t like it. Two of the three female partners in the TX office are very upfront about this. They are in their late forties. As it happens, I have outstanding offers to five lateral partners, four of whom are women, and all are trial lawyers. Two are just at 40 and the older two are not representative of their age cohort.
What happens?
It depends on a lot of things. If you took the time to read, first, what Danmore had to say, then look at why he was fired–the actual language, not the reports of what was said–and then read the two links carefully, you would see that your very brief description bears virtually no relationship to the issues at Google which underlay my comments.
What happens if 75% of your staff pings you with messages saying this guy goes or they do?
First, I would be shocked at the vindictive, small-mindedness of my colleagues. They don’t operate this way. Most people I know don’t take it upon themselves to declare other’s points of view so abhorrent that if the dissenters aren’t fired, the others will quit. What a bunch of assholes my staff would be if this was the case. As it happens we have all political stripes and everyone gets along.
What happens if some of your larger clients get wind of this and let you know in no uncertain terms that they don’t want to do business with companies that hire guys like that?
Then I would say my clients are assholes too. I would say if we’ve come that far, it’s only one short step to firing people because they have a Clinton or a Trump sign in their front yard. Fuck that. And fuck a bunch of people who are so offended at someone’s departure from orthodoxy that he or she is no longer employable.
What happens?
The shit well and truly hits the fan if my job and every other non-PC but otherwise law-abiding citizen’s job is at the mercy of lefty twitter mobs getting their panties in a knot and hounding companies to fire employees or to refuse to do business with other smaller companies because the employee or company owner doesn’t buy into PC inerrancy.
And, the Orwellian myth of liberal tolerance would be well and truly exploded.
Marty, if you think it’s OK to fire at will, what the eff is your beef with Google ?
Marty, if you think it’s OK to fire at will, what the eff is your beef with Google ?
You have to agree with the company line on social issues AS THEY APPLY TO THE WORKPLACE, as stated as a MATTER OF COMPANY POLICY.
Yeah, you pretty much have to do that. Or, if you don’t you pretty much need to not publicize your differences in corporate email.
So none of this gives you heartburn: At Company X, we’ve read The Bell Curve. We believe in science. So, while we faithfully adhere to all federal and state laws regarding nondiscrimination in hiring and promotion, be absolutely, positively think The Bell Curve is Gospel.
Russell, the longer of the two links cites copious evidence of female preferences for certain professions. Preferences that seem to be driven by biology. Not limitations in ability or intellect, just preferences. Is this something that offends you? That you think runs counter to reality? Are others here offended by the notion that females, in general, have preferences for some but not other lines of work? And, of course, the same being true for men, that there are occupational preferences driven by biology.
You have to agree with the company line on social issues AS THEY APPLY TO THE WORKPLACE, as stated as a MATTER OF COMPANY POLICY.
Yeah, you pretty much have to do that. Or, if you don’t you pretty much need to not publicize your differences in corporate email.
So none of this gives you heartburn: At Company X, we’ve read The Bell Curve. We believe in science. So, while we faithfully adhere to all federal and state laws regarding nondiscrimination in hiring and promotion, be absolutely, positively think The Bell Curve is Gospel.
Russell, the longer of the two links cites copious evidence of female preferences for certain professions. Preferences that seem to be driven by biology. Not limitations in ability or intellect, just preferences. Is this something that offends you? That you think runs counter to reality? Are others here offended by the notion that females, in general, have preferences for some but not other lines of work? And, of course, the same being true for men, that there are occupational preferences driven by biology.
That you have to agree with the company line on social issues or they can fire you?
Yeah, pretty much normal when you are saying it publicly.
Trying without success to remember a time, any time in the past half century of my personal work experience, when that wasn’t true. What particular topic, and what particular position on it, was unacceptable, has varied. But the basic principle has remained constant — major money center bank, HMO, stock broker, major university: all had policies along those lines.
Otherwise, what Russell said.
That you have to agree with the company line on social issues or they can fire you?
Yeah, pretty much normal when you are saying it publicly.
Trying without success to remember a time, any time in the past half century of my personal work experience, when that wasn’t true. What particular topic, and what particular position on it, was unacceptable, has varied. But the basic principle has remained constant — major money center bank, HMO, stock broker, major university: all had policies along those lines.
Otherwise, what Russell said.
So do you think fire at will is OK, McKinney ?
I honestly can’t see how one would think that so, and at the same time object to firing employees for ‘disagreeing on social issues’.
Unless you’re prepared to contemplate codifying what constitutes unfair dismissal (beyond the federally protected characteristics), then objecting to a particular incident just seeks like special pleading.
So do you think fire at will is OK, McKinney ?
I honestly can’t see how one would think that so, and at the same time object to firing employees for ‘disagreeing on social issues’.
Unless you’re prepared to contemplate codifying what constitutes unfair dismissal (beyond the federally protected characteristics), then objecting to a particular incident just seeks like special pleading.
“What particular topic, and what particular position on it, was unacceptable, has varied”
You say this like its a throwaway but it is the point. but sides have been taken so we will defend them to the death now.
My problem with Google is that there was no reason to fire him. He wrote a well prepared and supported paper and there was no attempt by Google to fire or chastise him until the feedback came storming in. Google can dismiss anyone they want but it has to fall into one of two categories, with or without cause.
They tried to portray it as with cause. That’s my problem.
“What particular topic, and what particular position on it, was unacceptable, has varied”
You say this like its a throwaway but it is the point. but sides have been taken so we will defend them to the death now.
My problem with Google is that there was no reason to fire him. He wrote a well prepared and supported paper and there was no attempt by Google to fire or chastise him until the feedback came storming in. Google can dismiss anyone they want but it has to fall into one of two categories, with or without cause.
They tried to portray it as with cause. That’s my problem.
Like it or not, women do not gravitate to litigation–which is where the adversarial stuff really and truly is.
no reason. they just don’t.
as russell said : begging the question.
Like it or not, women do not gravitate to litigation–which is where the adversarial stuff really and truly is.
no reason. they just don’t.
as russell said : begging the question.
My problem with Google is that there was no reason to fire him…
In your opinion.
And that is surely the point ?
You’re getting riled up about their explanation about why he was fired – but at the same time you’re fine with them firing him. From my perspective that’s just ridiculous.
My problem with Google is that there was no reason to fire him…
In your opinion.
And that is surely the point ?
You’re getting riled up about their explanation about why he was fired – but at the same time you’re fine with them firing him. From my perspective that’s just ridiculous.
“From my perspective that’s just ridiculous”
Hmmm. I see now. Nevermind.
“From my perspective that’s just ridiculous”
Hmmm. I see now. Nevermind.
So do you think fire at will is OK, McKinney?
I think employment at will is, on balance, better than legally requiring ‘termination for cause’. But that is not the issue. Google fired the guy–after and because of the outcry. What was, in fact, a mob hounding someone out of a job for having an unpopular viewpoint. After the fact spinning this as a routine managerial decision and the company’s right to hire and fire who they want studiously ignores the very marked left wing mob action that preceded and caused this. It was disgusting because it wasn’t thousands of unbalanced-marginalized losers, but rather supposedly a mass of educated, tolerant, high level smart people.
You’re getting riled up about their explanation about why he was fired – but at the same time you’re fine with them firing him. From my perspective that’s just ridiculous.
It would be ridiculous if that was what Marty said. Google did not state that the termination was ‘at will and without cause’. It said it was “with cause” and the cause was he said something they didn’t like. It wasn’t because he said it on company time or using company materials. None of that is in the Google public statements on the subject. People here are making up context to mitigate or excuse mob justice.
So do you think fire at will is OK, McKinney?
I think employment at will is, on balance, better than legally requiring ‘termination for cause’. But that is not the issue. Google fired the guy–after and because of the outcry. What was, in fact, a mob hounding someone out of a job for having an unpopular viewpoint. After the fact spinning this as a routine managerial decision and the company’s right to hire and fire who they want studiously ignores the very marked left wing mob action that preceded and caused this. It was disgusting because it wasn’t thousands of unbalanced-marginalized losers, but rather supposedly a mass of educated, tolerant, high level smart people.
You’re getting riled up about their explanation about why he was fired – but at the same time you’re fine with them firing him. From my perspective that’s just ridiculous.
It would be ridiculous if that was what Marty said. Google did not state that the termination was ‘at will and without cause’. It said it was “with cause” and the cause was he said something they didn’t like. It wasn’t because he said it on company time or using company materials. None of that is in the Google public statements on the subject. People here are making up context to mitigate or excuse mob justice.
My problem with Google is that there was no reason to fire him.
No, your problem with Google is that you didn’t like the reason that they fired him.
Having “no reason” is a different deal — that would be like the CEO woke up and decided that he was going to fire the first person who walked by him after 9:45 AM. This wasn’t that.
My problem with Google is that there was no reason to fire him.
No, your problem with Google is that you didn’t like the reason that they fired him.
Having “no reason” is a different deal — that would be like the CEO woke up and decided that he was going to fire the first person who walked by him after 9:45 AM. This wasn’t that.
People here are making up context to mitigate or excuse mob justice.
IANAL of course. But wouldn’t “mob justice” be a situation where the mob did the firing? As opposed here, to where a bunch of people expressed their opinion, and the duly constituted authority (i.e. the company management) took action. Just not clear on what the legal definition of the term “mob justice” is.
People here are making up context to mitigate or excuse mob justice.
IANAL of course. But wouldn’t “mob justice” be a situation where the mob did the firing? As opposed here, to where a bunch of people expressed their opinion, and the duly constituted authority (i.e. the company management) took action. Just not clear on what the legal definition of the term “mob justice” is.
Yeah, pretty much normal when you are saying it publicly.
And you’re good with the mob part of it too?
Yeah, pretty much normal when you are saying it publicly.
And you’re good with the mob part of it too?
IANAL of course. But wouldn’t “mob justice” be a situation where the mob did the firing? As opposed here, to where a bunch of people expressed their opinion, and the duly constituted authority (i.e. the company management) took action. Just not clear on what the legal definition of the term “mob justice” is.
Ok, you got me. It wasn’t actually the mob howling for his head, it was the senior management responding to the mob, so it’s not really a mob thing at all. Point taken.
IANAL of course. But wouldn’t “mob justice” be a situation where the mob did the firing? As opposed here, to where a bunch of people expressed their opinion, and the duly constituted authority (i.e. the company management) took action. Just not clear on what the legal definition of the term “mob justice” is.
Ok, you got me. It wasn’t actually the mob howling for his head, it was the senior management responding to the mob, so it’s not really a mob thing at all. Point taken.
I still can’t come to terms with the idea that it’s fine to fire someone completely arbitrarily, for no reason at all, but that if someone is fired for a reason you don’t like, that’s a cause for consternation.
And the firing that gets you so riled up doesn’t ‘on balance’ suggest that codifying a few employment rights to prevent such a thing in the future might be a good idea….
.. but that’s just my perspective.
I still can’t come to terms with the idea that it’s fine to fire someone completely arbitrarily, for no reason at all, but that if someone is fired for a reason you don’t like, that’s a cause for consternation.
And the firing that gets you so riled up doesn’t ‘on balance’ suggest that codifying a few employment rights to prevent such a thing in the future might be a good idea….
.. but that’s just my perspective.
I still can’t come to terms with the idea that it’s fine to fire someone completely arbitrarily, for no reason at all, but that if someone is fired for a reason you don’t like, that’s a cause for consternation.
Ok, I think I see your point. Employment at will produces a number of unfair and arbitrary outcomes. It also avoid shitloads of legal expense and litigation over a messy blend of subjective/objective perspectives. On balance, I support at will employment.
I am not saying Google broke the law. I am saying that something is very wrong when, after an employee says something that runs counter to prevailing belief, a mob ensues and then senior management caves into the mob and fires the employee. Taken to its logical conclusion, we can all look forward to that happy day when one’s public statements determine whether his or her co-employees are willing to allow that person to continue to work.
What we have today isn’t illegal. That doesn’t keep it from being a travesty. One that many here seem perfectly willing to enable.
I still can’t come to terms with the idea that it’s fine to fire someone completely arbitrarily, for no reason at all, but that if someone is fired for a reason you don’t like, that’s a cause for consternation.
Ok, I think I see your point. Employment at will produces a number of unfair and arbitrary outcomes. It also avoid shitloads of legal expense and litigation over a messy blend of subjective/objective perspectives. On balance, I support at will employment.
I am not saying Google broke the law. I am saying that something is very wrong when, after an employee says something that runs counter to prevailing belief, a mob ensues and then senior management caves into the mob and fires the employee. Taken to its logical conclusion, we can all look forward to that happy day when one’s public statements determine whether his or her co-employees are willing to allow that person to continue to work.
What we have today isn’t illegal. That doesn’t keep it from being a travesty. One that many here seem perfectly willing to enable.
Hey, McKinney:
What do you think would have happened if whatshisname at Google had sent out a treatise on the virtues of communism?
Would you be pissed if Google management (devout capitalists, I must assume) fired him? Would you be pissed if a “mob” of Google employees (aspiring capitalists, at a guess) demanded his firing?
–TP
Hey, McKinney:
What do you think would have happened if whatshisname at Google had sent out a treatise on the virtues of communism?
Would you be pissed if Google management (devout capitalists, I must assume) fired him? Would you be pissed if a “mob” of Google employees (aspiring capitalists, at a guess) demanded his firing?
–TP
Just out of curiosity, is there anything, anything at all, that someone could legally say (or write) which you would consider adequate reason for termination?
Just out of curiosity, is there anything, anything at all, that someone could legally say (or write) which you would consider adequate reason for termination?
I like the suggestion upthread that Southerners show their patriotism and love of history by erecting monuments to Grant and Union generals.
I like the suggestion upthread that Southerners show their patriotism and love of history by erecting monuments to Grant and Union generals.
the guy walked into the break room and shit on the floor.
really, that’s what he did.
he made a situation where nobody will want to work with him. he made himself intolerable.
Google had every right and justification to fire him.
the guy walked into the break room and shit on the floor.
really, that’s what he did.
he made a situation where nobody will want to work with him. he made himself intolerable.
Google had every right and justification to fire him.
And, the Orwellian myth of liberal tolerance would be well and truly exploded.
If there’s one thing tolerant people don’t have to tolerate, it’s intolerance.
And, the Orwellian myth of liberal tolerance would be well and truly exploded.
If there’s one thing tolerant people don’t have to tolerate, it’s intolerance.
Just out of curiosity, is there anything, anything at all, that someone could legally say (or write) which you would consider adequate reason for termination?
Not as long as they are being authentic.
Just out of curiosity, is there anything, anything at all, that someone could legally say (or write) which you would consider adequate reason for termination?
Not as long as they are being authentic.
after an employee says something that runs counter to prevailing belief
he insulted roughly half the friggin company.
he told them they were not suited to be there.
after an employee says something that runs counter to prevailing belief
he insulted roughly half the friggin company.
he told them they were not suited to be there.
a coincidence, i’m sure.
a coincidence, i’m sure.
McKinney – will give it a try tomorrow.
McKinney – will give it a try tomorrow.
Oddly cleek I asked the same question yesterday. It is a fine line to walk at the moment. He sucks at it but it is a challenge.
What I hear you(generic you ) saying is he should lump anyone that objects to the statue coming down in with the KKK and condemn us all.
No other answer is acceptable, a generic answer wasn’t good, even to me, a specific answer is not good because he only condemns hate groups and not the rest of us.
The Confedaracy was not Nazi Germany. It seceded over slavery, but the union didn’t attack the sovereign country to its South over to free the slaves, it attacked and conquered the Confederate States over economics. This is not tearing down Hitler statues, Lee didn’t start the war, the North did that.
Rewriting history is how fascists take over, that is the tactic of the left in this country.
Oddly cleek I asked the same question yesterday. It is a fine line to walk at the moment. He sucks at it but it is a challenge.
What I hear you(generic you ) saying is he should lump anyone that objects to the statue coming down in with the KKK and condemn us all.
No other answer is acceptable, a generic answer wasn’t good, even to me, a specific answer is not good because he only condemns hate groups and not the rest of us.
The Confedaracy was not Nazi Germany. It seceded over slavery, but the union didn’t attack the sovereign country to its South over to free the slaves, it attacked and conquered the Confederate States over economics. This is not tearing down Hitler statues, Lee didn’t start the war, the North did that.
Rewriting history is how fascists take over, that is the tactic of the left in this country.
russell, you are such an authoritarian.
So none of this gives you heartburn
I had to piss in a cup to keep a job I already had. New owners. From TX, as it turns out.
My line of business deals in medical PHI. It comes with the territory, at least according to the new bosses.
So no, the idea of getting canned for issuing a multi-page screed arguing with the company’s personnel policies doesn’t give me heartburn.
It’s fucked up, but we all gotta eat. You shoulda seen the hoops I had to go through to get a Secret clearance when I did government work.
Enjoy your pampered lives as consultants and trial lawyers. Most folks suck it up and deal.
Damore decided he didn’t want to, so he was shown the door.
Maybe someday when I have fucking hour to piss away I’ll read Damore’s opus in gory detail, and discover that in fact you guys are totally right, and Google totally sucks. In which case, I’ll be sure to issue an apology.
From point of view of the Cliff’s notes version, the man decided to piss all over Google’s HR policies and got his ass handed to him.
You wouldn’t believe the stuff people get fired for. Damore’s case is extraordinarily small potatoes.
The Confedaracy was not Nazi Germany.
Hitler looked to the American institution of slavery as an example. That, and our policy of exterminating the prior inhabitants of the continent to make room for our precious white selves.
I shit you not.
So you explain to me where the daylight is.
russell, you are such an authoritarian.
So none of this gives you heartburn
I had to piss in a cup to keep a job I already had. New owners. From TX, as it turns out.
My line of business deals in medical PHI. It comes with the territory, at least according to the new bosses.
So no, the idea of getting canned for issuing a multi-page screed arguing with the company’s personnel policies doesn’t give me heartburn.
It’s fucked up, but we all gotta eat. You shoulda seen the hoops I had to go through to get a Secret clearance when I did government work.
Enjoy your pampered lives as consultants and trial lawyers. Most folks suck it up and deal.
Damore decided he didn’t want to, so he was shown the door.
Maybe someday when I have fucking hour to piss away I’ll read Damore’s opus in gory detail, and discover that in fact you guys are totally right, and Google totally sucks. In which case, I’ll be sure to issue an apology.
From point of view of the Cliff’s notes version, the man decided to piss all over Google’s HR policies and got his ass handed to him.
You wouldn’t believe the stuff people get fired for. Damore’s case is extraordinarily small potatoes.
The Confedaracy was not Nazi Germany.
Hitler looked to the American institution of slavery as an example. That, and our policy of exterminating the prior inhabitants of the continent to make room for our precious white selves.
I shit you not.
So you explain to me where the daylight is.
McKinney talked about the article I linked to:
The article is anecdotal, depending almost entirely on personal histories and then mostly if not only on histories that tell the story from one perspective, that being the marginalized female.
Of course, the idea that women (“females”) are marginalized (both in the profession, and in the educational preparation) is the whole point. So it’s totally worthless to consider the personal histories of “marginalized females.”
he insulted roughly half the friggin company.
Women are still discriminated against in lots of ways, in many companies, and institutions, including educational institutions. I have a friend who got a settlement within the last few years from UVA, and I know other people elsewhere who are aware of it going on. (It’s not always practical to sue – I’m sure people can imagine why.)
So Google is trying to change the culture of their workplace, and experimenting with making women more comfortable that their contributions are valued. They make this explicit in their workplace handbook.
I worked at a time when women were routinely marginalized and discriminated against (not that long ago). I can tell you that I never experienced any of the women I worked with sending out a company-wide email complaining about the treatment there. Would they have been fired? Who knows. They wouldn’t have risked it, especially before discrimination laws were available. Bro’s? They’re entitled, they think.
Cool! Now the workplace is a huge ObWi-style comment opportunity! I think I’ll seek a job again at a big corporation and let loose on company-wide email! I’m sure my future employment attorney will be happy to sue pro bono when I get canned! [Not.]
McKinney talked about the article I linked to:
The article is anecdotal, depending almost entirely on personal histories and then mostly if not only on histories that tell the story from one perspective, that being the marginalized female.
Of course, the idea that women (“females”) are marginalized (both in the profession, and in the educational preparation) is the whole point. So it’s totally worthless to consider the personal histories of “marginalized females.”
he insulted roughly half the friggin company.
Women are still discriminated against in lots of ways, in many companies, and institutions, including educational institutions. I have a friend who got a settlement within the last few years from UVA, and I know other people elsewhere who are aware of it going on. (It’s not always practical to sue – I’m sure people can imagine why.)
So Google is trying to change the culture of their workplace, and experimenting with making women more comfortable that their contributions are valued. They make this explicit in their workplace handbook.
I worked at a time when women were routinely marginalized and discriminated against (not that long ago). I can tell you that I never experienced any of the women I worked with sending out a company-wide email complaining about the treatment there. Would they have been fired? Who knows. They wouldn’t have risked it, especially before discrimination laws were available. Bro’s? They’re entitled, they think.
Cool! Now the workplace is a huge ObWi-style comment opportunity! I think I’ll seek a job again at a big corporation and let loose on company-wide email! I’m sure my future employment attorney will be happy to sue pro bono when I get canned! [Not.]
there was no attempt by Google to fire or chastise him until the feedback came storming in. Google can dismiss anyone they want but it has to fall into one of two categories, with or without cause.
I hate to break it to you, but a shitstorm of bad PR is perfectly reasonable cause.
His public statements embarrassed the hell out of us, made it hard to recruit people we wanted to recruit and/or retain some people we wanted to reatin, and pissed off some important customers and business partners.
Out you go. Believe me when I tell you people have been fired for much, much, much less.
Not your company, not your business. That’s how we do things here.
there was no attempt by Google to fire or chastise him until the feedback came storming in. Google can dismiss anyone they want but it has to fall into one of two categories, with or without cause.
I hate to break it to you, but a shitstorm of bad PR is perfectly reasonable cause.
His public statements embarrassed the hell out of us, made it hard to recruit people we wanted to recruit and/or retain some people we wanted to reatin, and pissed off some important customers and business partners.
Out you go. Believe me when I tell you people have been fired for much, much, much less.
Not your company, not your business. That’s how we do things here.
the union didn’t attack the sovereign country to its South over to free the slaves, it attacked and conquered the Confederate States over economics
News flash: the union didn’t start the war.
News flash: the distinction between “economics” and “slavery” in 19th C America is non-existent. Slaves where the second largest store of capital in private hands, only exceeded by land.
Rewriting history is how the fascists take over.
the union didn’t attack the sovereign country to its South over to free the slaves, it attacked and conquered the Confederate States over economics
News flash: the union didn’t start the war.
News flash: the distinction between “economics” and “slavery” in 19th C America is non-existent. Slaves where the second largest store of capital in private hands, only exceeded by land.
Rewriting history is how the fascists take over.
One that many here seem perfectly willing to enable.
Good to see McT up to his old tricks. We’ll enable Damore’s firing, you can enable C’ville rallies. I’ll take the former over the latter any day of the week and twice a day on weekends.
One that many here seem perfectly willing to enable.
Good to see McT up to his old tricks. We’ll enable Damore’s firing, you can enable C’ville rallies. I’ll take the former over the latter any day of the week and twice a day on weekends.
What I hear you(generic you ) saying is he should lump anyone that objects to the statue coming down in with the KKK and condemn us all.
What I infer from arguments of historical preservation is that the neo-Nazis, KKK members, and a number of alt-right groups were really in Charlottesville because they’re history buffs, despite the actual history that this particular statue was only put up long after the Civil War to remind certain people who was still in charge, so they wouldn’t forget and get funny ideas about being equal.
I really don’t understand why seemingly normal people feel the need to rationalize excuses for FVCKING NAZIS and THE FVCKING KKK!!! Jesus H. Christ on a popsicle stick, WTF is going on in this country???
What I hear you(generic you ) saying is he should lump anyone that objects to the statue coming down in with the KKK and condemn us all.
What I infer from arguments of historical preservation is that the neo-Nazis, KKK members, and a number of alt-right groups were really in Charlottesville because they’re history buffs, despite the actual history that this particular statue was only put up long after the Civil War to remind certain people who was still in charge, so they wouldn’t forget and get funny ideas about being equal.
I really don’t understand why seemingly normal people feel the need to rationalize excuses for FVCKING NAZIS and THE FVCKING KKK!!! Jesus H. Christ on a popsicle stick, WTF is going on in this country???
Please excuse my all-caps. I’m just getting very close to my wits end on this.
Please excuse my all-caps. I’m just getting very close to my wits end on this.
Clerk, you are certifiable. He did nothing that you say he did. You are entirely a product of your own prejudices. Bigot.
Clerk, you are certifiable. He did nothing that you say he did. You are entirely a product of your own prejudices. Bigot.
Marty: The Confedaracy was not Nazi Germany.
And the Coup Clucks Clams are not the SS. Still and all, defending the Confederates on the grounds that at least they were not as bad as the Nazis is a pretty weak defense. For one thing, the Ubermenschen mentality they shared kinda ruins your argument.
It seceded over slavery, but the union didn’t attack the sovereign country to its South over to free the slaves, it attacked and conquered the Confederate States over economics. This is not tearing down Hitler statues, Lee didn’t start the war, the North did that.
The United States of America was a sovereign country. The Confederates were part of that sovereign country until they rebelled. It wasn’t the Union artillery that fired on Fort Sumter. Loser Robert E. Lee had sworn an oath to the Constitution of the USA, not of the CSA or of VA. He turned traitor and got his ass whupped, eventually, by U.S. Grant. His modern-day idolaters are not celebrating an American hero; they’re celebrating a fighter for slavery — and a loser at that.
If you see somebody on the Common on Saturday burning CSA and Nazi flags, Marty, it will be me. Unless somebody else has the same idea, of course.
–TP
Marty: The Confedaracy was not Nazi Germany.
And the Coup Clucks Clams are not the SS. Still and all, defending the Confederates on the grounds that at least they were not as bad as the Nazis is a pretty weak defense. For one thing, the Ubermenschen mentality they shared kinda ruins your argument.
It seceded over slavery, but the union didn’t attack the sovereign country to its South over to free the slaves, it attacked and conquered the Confederate States over economics. This is not tearing down Hitler statues, Lee didn’t start the war, the North did that.
The United States of America was a sovereign country. The Confederates were part of that sovereign country until they rebelled. It wasn’t the Union artillery that fired on Fort Sumter. Loser Robert E. Lee had sworn an oath to the Constitution of the USA, not of the CSA or of VA. He turned traitor and got his ass whupped, eventually, by U.S. Grant. His modern-day idolaters are not celebrating an American hero; they’re celebrating a fighter for slavery — and a loser at that.
If you see somebody on the Common on Saturday burning CSA and Nazi flags, Marty, it will be me. Unless somebody else has the same idea, of course.
–TP
Not as long as they are being authentic.
Somebody authentically offers their opinion that blacks are lazy stupid slackers. Because they lack that Caucausian mojo.
In a company-wide email.
In a company that is trying to diversify their workforce, for whatever reason appeals to them.
He offers this opinion completely authentically.
How do you, the employer, respond?
Anyplace I have *ever* worked, that dude will be out the door before he has a chance to get his coat on.
Maybe you run your businesses some other way.
Not as long as they are being authentic.
Somebody authentically offers their opinion that blacks are lazy stupid slackers. Because they lack that Caucausian mojo.
In a company-wide email.
In a company that is trying to diversify their workforce, for whatever reason appeals to them.
He offers this opinion completely authentically.
How do you, the employer, respond?
Anyplace I have *ever* worked, that dude will be out the door before he has a chance to get his coat on.
Maybe you run your businesses some other way.
Clerk, you are certifiable.
The man calls himself cleek. c-l-e-e-k.
Clerk, you are certifiable.
The man calls himself cleek. c-l-e-e-k.
What I infer from arguments of historical preservation…
Most of the statues being taken down were put up in the early 20th C. Fifty or more years after the end of the Civil War.
Right about the time of the second surge of Klan activity. Release of “Birth of a Nation”. The emergence of the Lost Cause nostalgia.
When they were put up, lots of people did not want them. They were offended by their presence. Yet, they were put up.
Now, there are people who are offended by taking them down.
It’s a yin and yang thing. I call it reciprocity.
What I infer from arguments of historical preservation…
Most of the statues being taken down were put up in the early 20th C. Fifty or more years after the end of the Civil War.
Right about the time of the second surge of Klan activity. Release of “Birth of a Nation”. The emergence of the Lost Cause nostalgia.
When they were put up, lots of people did not want them. They were offended by their presence. Yet, they were put up.
Now, there are people who are offended by taking them down.
It’s a yin and yang thing. I call it reciprocity.
The man calls himself cleek.
To McKinney, everyone is his clerk? “You’re fired!” ?
The man calls himself cleek.
To McKinney, everyone is his clerk? “You’re fired!” ?
Autocorrect. A product of iPhone.
Autocorrect. A product of iPhone.
Autocorrect.
I get that. Just yanking your chain.
Autocorrect.
I get that. Just yanking your chain.
Russell, you are defending a position admittedly without having read the document at issue and are defending mob action. Really?
Russell, you are defending a position admittedly without having read the document at issue and are defending mob action. Really?
Most of the statues being taken down were put up in the early 20th C. Fifty or more years after the end of the Civil War.
Yes. Sad, because it’s a bit over a half-century since WWII. Long enough to forget what it was about, and short enough to “revise history.”
WWII was about fascism, people. My parents are dead, but there are a few people left. Ask.
Most of the statues being taken down were put up in the early 20th C. Fifty or more years after the end of the Civil War.
Yes. Sad, because it’s a bit over a half-century since WWII. Long enough to forget what it was about, and short enough to “revise history.”
WWII was about fascism, people. My parents are dead, but there are a few people left. Ask.
Suppose instead that Danmore posted his position here but did so openly and the same mob called successfully for his firing? You’d be fine w that?
Suppose instead that Danmore posted his position here but did so openly and the same mob called successfully for his firing? You’d be fine w that?
And LJ brings his customary standard of intellectual honesty to the discussion. Clearly he’s read my comments on white supremacy. Twinkie.
And LJ brings his customary standard of intellectual honesty to the discussion. Clearly he’s read my comments on white supremacy. Twinkie.
Thanks for the yanks.
Thanks for the yanks.
Suppose instead that Danmore posted his position here but did so openly and the same mob called successfully for his firing? You’d be fine w that?
Mob? Do you mean people exercising their own right to speech?
Suppose instead that Danmore posted his position here but did so openly and the same mob called successfully for his firing? You’d be fine w that?
Mob? Do you mean people exercising their own right to speech?
Not as long as they are being authentic.
I’m picturing the reaction, doubtless of absolute support, if someone got fired for “mob behavior” in demanding a co-worker’s termination/demotion because that co-worker was too conservative. After all, said mob behavior was entirely authentic….
Not as long as they are being authentic.
I’m picturing the reaction, doubtless of absolute support, if someone got fired for “mob behavior” in demanding a co-worker’s termination/demotion because that co-worker was too conservative. After all, said mob behavior was entirely authentic….
Maybe people don’t give much of a crap about a guy getting fired from Google. Maybe the arguments over the merits of what he wrote are so convoluted that it’s not worth the time to figure them out. Maybe the guy should refrain from writing manifestos and distributing them electronically to his coworkers and stick to doing his fncking job.
The mob! Were they carrying guns and torches?
Maybe people don’t give much of a crap about a guy getting fired from Google. Maybe the arguments over the merits of what he wrote are so convoluted that it’s not worth the time to figure them out. Maybe the guy should refrain from writing manifestos and distributing them electronically to his coworkers and stick to doing his fncking job.
The mob! Were they carrying guns and torches?
Sapient is fine with people being hounded out of their jobs for disagreeing w the majority. Lovely liberal tolerance.
Sapient is fine with people being hounded out of their jobs for disagreeing w the majority. Lovely liberal tolerance.
we can all look forward to that happy day when one’s public statements determine whether his or her co-employees are willing to allow that person to continue to work.
Like this.
And this.
And this
I could go on, had I world enough and time. You get the gist.
Damore crapped in the punch bowl. They cut him loose. It happens.
Enjoy your nice consultant and trial lawyer gigs. Most folks recognize this stuff as reality and deal. I sure as hell do.
Wake up, smell coffee, move on.
we can all look forward to that happy day when one’s public statements determine whether his or her co-employees are willing to allow that person to continue to work.
Like this.
And this.
And this
I could go on, had I world enough and time. You get the gist.
Damore crapped in the punch bowl. They cut him loose. It happens.
Enjoy your nice consultant and trial lawyer gigs. Most folks recognize this stuff as reality and deal. I sure as hell do.
Wake up, smell coffee, move on.
Sapient is fine with people being hounded out of their jobs for disagreeing w the majority.
Yeah, it’s like he got fired for rooting for the wrong football team or something.
Sapient is fine with people being hounded out of their jobs for disagreeing w the majority.
Yeah, it’s like he got fired for rooting for the wrong football team or something.
Sapient is fine with people being hounded out of their jobs for disagreeing w the majority. Lovely liberal tolerance.
sapient shuts up at work (unless in a private conversation among friends). Rude as I am here, that’s office etiquette, and also kept me employed.
Sapient is fine with people being hounded out of their jobs for disagreeing w the majority. Lovely liberal tolerance.
sapient shuts up at work (unless in a private conversation among friends). Rude as I am here, that’s office etiquette, and also kept me employed.
Does McKinney think that a “mob” of Google employees are lurking at ObWi? Or does he think that Google management would “cave” to a “mob” of ObWi lurkers calling for whatshisname to be fired? Or what?
And I still want to know his answer to my “communist manifesto” question.
–TP
Does McKinney think that a “mob” of Google employees are lurking at ObWi? Or does he think that Google management would “cave” to a “mob” of ObWi lurkers calling for whatshisname to be fired? Or what?
And I still want to know his answer to my “communist manifesto” question.
–TP
Russell, you are defending a position admittedly without having read the document at issue and are defending mob action. Really?
I’m not really defending any position. I’m saying Google can cut Damore loose if they think he’s a dick and they think it’s making a problem for them.
Whether I agree with the substance of either Damore’s or Google’s position is sort of to the side. It doesn’t freaking matter what I think.
The substantive part of my comments here have to do with your apparent support for the idea that the fact that women to to be “not interested in” tech careers is the end of the story. As noted above, that begs the question.
Why aren’t they interested in tech careers? That’s the question of interest, substantively.
As far as what Google can and can’t do, if they get a pile of crap because of Damore’s public statements, they’re perfectly within their rights to cut him loose.
Do you think this never happens the other way, i.e. no-one has ever been fired because their flaming liberal point of view was embarrassing or otherwise inconvenient for their employer?
Hire at will. It’s a dog eat dog world. If you want to eat, you don’t bite the hand that feeds you.
Don’t like it, move to France. Which sounds better and better to me every day. Unfortunately for me, I have ties that bind me here.
Damore will land on his feet, never you worry.
Russell, you are defending a position admittedly without having read the document at issue and are defending mob action. Really?
I’m not really defending any position. I’m saying Google can cut Damore loose if they think he’s a dick and they think it’s making a problem for them.
Whether I agree with the substance of either Damore’s or Google’s position is sort of to the side. It doesn’t freaking matter what I think.
The substantive part of my comments here have to do with your apparent support for the idea that the fact that women to to be “not interested in” tech careers is the end of the story. As noted above, that begs the question.
Why aren’t they interested in tech careers? That’s the question of interest, substantively.
As far as what Google can and can’t do, if they get a pile of crap because of Damore’s public statements, they’re perfectly within their rights to cut him loose.
Do you think this never happens the other way, i.e. no-one has ever been fired because their flaming liberal point of view was embarrassing or otherwise inconvenient for their employer?
Hire at will. It’s a dog eat dog world. If you want to eat, you don’t bite the hand that feeds you.
Don’t like it, move to France. Which sounds better and better to me every day. Unfortunately for me, I have ties that bind me here.
Damore will land on his feet, never you worry.
hsh, no one is justifying them, or Trump for that matter. But we, lots of us in the South, are tired of people trying to tell us what we fncking think and feel. We don’t hate black people, most of us are struggling too much to care about this crap anyway. Want to help black people? Make them not have to live in scummy slums in Northern cities so all you liberals can “help” them without ever having to talk to one. Cluck clucking about guns and violence from your safe little lily white suburb.
If you actually go to the South no one, except a few thousand aholes, is still fighting the damn war. It’s only people in the North, and who move South, doing that.For Chrissake get over it. Almost every city in the South is predominantly Black. There are black mayors everywhere. City council’s, state legislatures, full representation.
Don’t tell us what Lee or the Confederate flag stands for to US. And unless we start building a statue of Lee on the Boston Common it’s none of your damn business where we have one.
No caps, just as frustrated.
hsh, no one is justifying them, or Trump for that matter. But we, lots of us in the South, are tired of people trying to tell us what we fncking think and feel. We don’t hate black people, most of us are struggling too much to care about this crap anyway. Want to help black people? Make them not have to live in scummy slums in Northern cities so all you liberals can “help” them without ever having to talk to one. Cluck clucking about guns and violence from your safe little lily white suburb.
If you actually go to the South no one, except a few thousand aholes, is still fighting the damn war. It’s only people in the North, and who move South, doing that.For Chrissake get over it. Almost every city in the South is predominantly Black. There are black mayors everywhere. City council’s, state legislatures, full representation.
Don’t tell us what Lee or the Confederate flag stands for to US. And unless we start building a statue of Lee on the Boston Common it’s none of your damn business where we have one.
No caps, just as frustrated.
Ok. We are clear. If one’s employees determine that another has the wrong views, they can vote him/her off the island. Out of work. Later Skater. Tolerant!
Russell, neither of your links match our facts. No twitter mob demanding conformity.
It’s also obvious no one read Danmore’s position. Pepsi Challenge: actually read it and then quote the language that justifies the mob’s reaction. Prediction No. One: not going to happen. Prediction No. Two: either LJ or Cleek will opine that the actual words don’t matter. What matters is they offended others.
Ok. We are clear. If one’s employees determine that another has the wrong views, they can vote him/her off the island. Out of work. Later Skater. Tolerant!
Russell, neither of your links match our facts. No twitter mob demanding conformity.
It’s also obvious no one read Danmore’s position. Pepsi Challenge: actually read it and then quote the language that justifies the mob’s reaction. Prediction No. One: not going to happen. Prediction No. Two: either LJ or Cleek will opine that the actual words don’t matter. What matters is they offended others.
And LJ brings his customary standard of intellectual honesty to the discussion.
Given that none of us ‘here’ is, as far as I’m aware, employed by Google, that ‘enabling’ comment is your habits coming back to haunt you. I would say what does a lawyer know about intellectual honesty, but I wouldn’t want to insult lawyers who actually do care about it. That, along with your customary levels of homophobia have been missing here for a while…
And LJ brings his customary standard of intellectual honesty to the discussion.
Given that none of us ‘here’ is, as far as I’m aware, employed by Google, that ‘enabling’ comment is your habits coming back to haunt you. I would say what does a lawyer know about intellectual honesty, but I wouldn’t want to insult lawyers who actually do care about it. That, along with your customary levels of homophobia have been missing here for a while…
Don’t tell us what Lee or the Confederate flag stands for to US. And unless we start building a statue of Lee on the Boston Common it’s none of your damn business where we have one.
But, Marty, I live in Charlottesville, and it’s my business if Charlottesville honors Lee. I didn’t see a reply to my link to the Atlantic article about Lee.
Maybe you don’t get it: African-Americans were a majority of the population of Charlottesville during the Civil War, and until the 1890’s (when the Great Migration occurred).
So, yeah, Southern boy, there are other Southerners here, and Lee is not my hero.
Don’t tell us what Lee or the Confederate flag stands for to US. And unless we start building a statue of Lee on the Boston Common it’s none of your damn business where we have one.
But, Marty, I live in Charlottesville, and it’s my business if Charlottesville honors Lee. I didn’t see a reply to my link to the Atlantic article about Lee.
Maybe you don’t get it: African-Americans were a majority of the population of Charlottesville during the Civil War, and until the 1890’s (when the Great Migration occurred).
So, yeah, Southern boy, there are other Southerners here, and Lee is not my hero.
hsh, no one is justifying them, or Trump for that matter.
Oh, yes, they are. Maybe you aren’t. Maybe, even though everything else sounds like you might be. But, still, maybe not.
But we, lots of us in the South, are tired of people trying to tell us what we fncking think and feel. We don’t hate black people…
How do the black people in the South – the many, many black people who live in the South – think and feel about statues of Confederate generals and Confederate Flags being displayed where they live?
Make them not have to live in scummy slums in Northern cities so all you liberals can “help” them without ever having to talk to one.
How about you stop assuming you know who I do or don’t talk to, because you don’t, obviously.
And unless we start building a statue of Lee on the Boston Common it’s none of your damn business where we have one.
The City of Charlottesville, via its democratically elected government, decided to take down the statue of Lee. It’s none of the alt-right’s or the KKK’s or the neo-Nazis business.
hsh, no one is justifying them, or Trump for that matter.
Oh, yes, they are. Maybe you aren’t. Maybe, even though everything else sounds like you might be. But, still, maybe not.
But we, lots of us in the South, are tired of people trying to tell us what we fncking think and feel. We don’t hate black people…
How do the black people in the South – the many, many black people who live in the South – think and feel about statues of Confederate generals and Confederate Flags being displayed where they live?
Make them not have to live in scummy slums in Northern cities so all you liberals can “help” them without ever having to talk to one.
How about you stop assuming you know who I do or don’t talk to, because you don’t, obviously.
And unless we start building a statue of Lee on the Boston Common it’s none of your damn business where we have one.
The City of Charlottesville, via its democratically elected government, decided to take down the statue of Lee. It’s none of the alt-right’s or the KKK’s or the neo-Nazis business.
Suppose instead that Danmore posted his position here but did so openly and the same mob called successfully for his firing? You’d be fine w that?
See my 10:57 on all the folks who got canned for social media posts. Most not work-related in the first place.
unless we start building a statue of Lee on the Boston Common it’s none of your damn business where we have one.
If you want a statue of Lee in your town, have one.
If the people in your town want the statue of Lee taken down, down it comes.
The people in C’ville apparently wanted the statue taken down. The folks who decided to make a stink about it were mostly from out of state, not necessarily even from the south. Ohio, Nevada, South Dakota, god knows where else. If I’m not mistaken. They were just looking to pick a fight, got one, and ended up killing a young woman.
There is a statue of Lee in the Capitol in DC I wouldn’t mind seeing gone, but it’s there at the discretion of the state of VA (I think), so I don’t get a vote.
It doesn’t keep me up at night.
Suppose instead that Danmore posted his position here but did so openly and the same mob called successfully for his firing? You’d be fine w that?
See my 10:57 on all the folks who got canned for social media posts. Most not work-related in the first place.
unless we start building a statue of Lee on the Boston Common it’s none of your damn business where we have one.
If you want a statue of Lee in your town, have one.
If the people in your town want the statue of Lee taken down, down it comes.
The people in C’ville apparently wanted the statue taken down. The folks who decided to make a stink about it were mostly from out of state, not necessarily even from the south. Ohio, Nevada, South Dakota, god knows where else. If I’m not mistaken. They were just looking to pick a fight, got one, and ended up killing a young woman.
There is a statue of Lee in the Capitol in DC I wouldn’t mind seeing gone, but it’s there at the discretion of the state of VA (I think), so I don’t get a vote.
It doesn’t keep me up at night.
It seems to me that authoritarians have always criticized democracy as “mob rule,” by which they meant that the majority of people did not, or might not, support the right of the traditional elites to continue running things. My recollections are hazy, but go back on this matter to the 18th century at least (in USA, UK, and elsewhere). It’s an absolutely standard rhetorical trope every time someone suggests expanding the electorate or otherwise allowing the Great Unwashed into the august decision-making process.
I, on the other hand, prefer to think of a “mob” in a more restricted sense, as a crowd of people assembled together who are undertaking, or trying to undertake, violent action – killing, burning, tearing down, or otherwise threatening life and/or property – and generally (it is implied) doing so without organized structure or other than ad hoc leadership.
If one labels as a “mob” any group of people who happen to agree on something that one disagrees with, the term becomes analytically useless, merely a rhetorical rock to throw at the virtual head of one’s opponents. And one comes perilously close to self-identifying as an authoritarian.
It seems to me that authoritarians have always criticized democracy as “mob rule,” by which they meant that the majority of people did not, or might not, support the right of the traditional elites to continue running things. My recollections are hazy, but go back on this matter to the 18th century at least (in USA, UK, and elsewhere). It’s an absolutely standard rhetorical trope every time someone suggests expanding the electorate or otherwise allowing the Great Unwashed into the august decision-making process.
I, on the other hand, prefer to think of a “mob” in a more restricted sense, as a crowd of people assembled together who are undertaking, or trying to undertake, violent action – killing, burning, tearing down, or otherwise threatening life and/or property – and generally (it is implied) doing so without organized structure or other than ad hoc leadership.
If one labels as a “mob” any group of people who happen to agree on something that one disagrees with, the term becomes analytically useless, merely a rhetorical rock to throw at the virtual head of one’s opponents. And one comes perilously close to self-identifying as an authoritarian.
LJ, you are the quintessential SJW: completely unable to defend your position on whatever intellectual merit it may have, but a name-caller extraordinaire. You are without substance. A Twinkie.
LJ, you are the quintessential SJW: completely unable to defend your position on whatever intellectual merit it may have, but a name-caller extraordinaire. You are without substance. A Twinkie.
“The City of Charlottesville, via its democratically elected government, decided to take down the statue of Lee. It’s none of the alt-right’s or the KKK’s or the neo-Nazis business.”
But it is the right of the citizens of Charlottesville to peaceably assemble to protest that election. Or is that just presidential elections.
And in rereading before you ever commented there was a you in there that I would have preferred be they. My apologies, I assume nothing if the sort about you, or russell.
“The City of Charlottesville, via its democratically elected government, decided to take down the statue of Lee. It’s none of the alt-right’s or the KKK’s or the neo-Nazis business.”
But it is the right of the citizens of Charlottesville to peaceably assemble to protest that election. Or is that just presidential elections.
And in rereading before you ever commented there was a you in there that I would have preferred be they. My apologies, I assume nothing if the sort about you, or russell.
It’s been 70+ years – maybe we should make common cause with Hitler. Peace and generostiy and “charity to all” and all.
NO. Not doing that. And Lincoln wouldn’t have had either.
My work colleague saw a guy walking down the street this morning (the street leading towards the car attack – C’ville streets are few).
He was wielding a longarm, and carrying a Confederate flag.
Google, should you fire him? Yes.
It’s been 70+ years – maybe we should make common cause with Hitler. Peace and generostiy and “charity to all” and all.
NO. Not doing that. And Lincoln wouldn’t have had either.
My work colleague saw a guy walking down the street this morning (the street leading towards the car attack – C’ville streets are few).
He was wielding a longarm, and carrying a Confederate flag.
Google, should you fire him? Yes.
Shorter Dr N: twitter mobs employed in the service of that which is good and right are perfectly fine. Because they aren’t mobs after all. They are just people who agree. In this case, people who agree to demand that someone else be fired. George Orwell, your time has come.
Shorter Dr N: twitter mobs employed in the service of that which is good and right are perfectly fine. Because they aren’t mobs after all. They are just people who agree. In this case, people who agree to demand that someone else be fired. George Orwell, your time has come.
Marty: “But it is the right of the citizens of Charlottesville to peaceably assemble to protest that election. Or is that just presidential elections.”
Most of the folks that you’re apparently supporting were not from Charlottesville. Maybe you need to figure out what your point is?
Marty: “But it is the right of the citizens of Charlottesville to peaceably assemble to protest that election. Or is that just presidential elections.”
Most of the folks that you’re apparently supporting were not from Charlottesville. Maybe you need to figure out what your point is?
McKinney, what’s your point? I’ve never seen you so worried about someone being fired before (someone from a private company with an employment protocol). Also, he’s looking into legal action. Maybe you should take up his cause, pro bono?
Maybe you should, instead, work for DACA kids, who did absolutely nothing wrong, whose lives are about to be upended?
McKinney, what’s your point? I’ve never seen you so worried about someone being fired before (someone from a private company with an employment protocol). Also, he’s looking into legal action. Maybe you should take up his cause, pro bono?
Maybe you should, instead, work for DACA kids, who did absolutely nothing wrong, whose lives are about to be upended?
sapient, I read the link, another revision/view of history, there are lots.
I don’t have a problem with cities voting to remove statues, well in specific. In general erasing history erases good and bad. even in this case.
I object to the consistent drumbeat of some that lumps me in with David Duke.
sapient, I read the link, another revision/view of history, there are lots.
I don’t have a problem with cities voting to remove statues, well in specific. In general erasing history erases good and bad. even in this case.
I object to the consistent drumbeat of some that lumps me in with David Duke.
Sapient, if we become a country where people hold their jobs by conforming to prevailing views or starve, we’ve devolved terribly. That’s a problem for me. Why isn’t it a problem for you?
Sapient, if we become a country where people hold their jobs by conforming to prevailing views or starve, we’ve devolved terribly. That’s a problem for me. Why isn’t it a problem for you?
What matters is they offended others.
What matters, to Google, is that Damore created an embarrassing and problematic situation for them. What they decide to do about that is up to them.
Their company. Hire at will.
What matters to me, or you, is an interesting topic of parlor conversation here on ObWi, and not much more than that.
I would say, and no doubt have said, the same about people “hounded” out of their jobs by “mobs” of conservatives offended by their public “liberal” statements.
If your public statements create a problem for your employer, your employer can fire you. Full stop. There is not one thing more to say about it.
If you want to talk about why women might or might not be interested in pursuing careers in technical fields, that could be an interesting topic. The Damore / Google drama is, simply, not.
People get fired for whatever their employers deem to be fireable. How they dress, sarcastic comments they make about their employers in public, if they have a drink when they’re on vacation.
If the employer deems that outside of acceptable employee behavior, out you go.
Who knows, maybe there’s a business opportunity for you here McK. You can take all of the companies that fire people in response to broad public and professional approbation to court. See how far you get.
Seriously, you’re living a very pampered existence. Not one you haven’t earned, but pampered nevertheless.
People get the axe for much, much, much more trivial things than what Damore did. And no, I don’t need to read the whole damned paper to understand that. What he wrote created an embarrasing and awkward situation for Google, that’s all she wrote. Whether that stems from a million tweets, or a widespread boycott of Google ads, or fifty pissed off women engineers picketing Google headquarters, or Pichai’s wife giving him crap every night when he gets home, matters not.
Piss off your employer, you will likely get fired. Everybody in the freaking hire-at-will world understands this basic fact of life. My opinion or your opinion about the substance is irrelevant.
What matters is they offended others.
What matters, to Google, is that Damore created an embarrassing and problematic situation for them. What they decide to do about that is up to them.
Their company. Hire at will.
What matters to me, or you, is an interesting topic of parlor conversation here on ObWi, and not much more than that.
I would say, and no doubt have said, the same about people “hounded” out of their jobs by “mobs” of conservatives offended by their public “liberal” statements.
If your public statements create a problem for your employer, your employer can fire you. Full stop. There is not one thing more to say about it.
If you want to talk about why women might or might not be interested in pursuing careers in technical fields, that could be an interesting topic. The Damore / Google drama is, simply, not.
People get fired for whatever their employers deem to be fireable. How they dress, sarcastic comments they make about their employers in public, if they have a drink when they’re on vacation.
If the employer deems that outside of acceptable employee behavior, out you go.
Who knows, maybe there’s a business opportunity for you here McK. You can take all of the companies that fire people in response to broad public and professional approbation to court. See how far you get.
Seriously, you’re living a very pampered existence. Not one you haven’t earned, but pampered nevertheless.
People get the axe for much, much, much more trivial things than what Damore did. And no, I don’t need to read the whole damned paper to understand that. What he wrote created an embarrasing and awkward situation for Google, that’s all she wrote. Whether that stems from a million tweets, or a widespread boycott of Google ads, or fifty pissed off women engineers picketing Google headquarters, or Pichai’s wife giving him crap every night when he gets home, matters not.
Piss off your employer, you will likely get fired. Everybody in the freaking hire-at-will world understands this basic fact of life. My opinion or your opinion about the substance is irrelevant.
But it is the right of the citizens of Charlottesville to peaceably assemble to protest that election. Or is that just presidential elections.
Absolutely. But that right doesn’t mean I or anyone else has to like neo-Nazis or the KKK or believe that they’re just there because they love a statue. And most of them were not citizens of Charlottesville.
I don’t know, but I would guess that a lot more of the counter-protesters were from Charlottesville or thereabout. I know the young woman who was killed was born in Charlottesville and worked in Charlottesville and lived just minutes from Charlottesville. I know the guy who killed her was from Kentucky/Ohio.
But it is the right of the citizens of Charlottesville to peaceably assemble to protest that election. Or is that just presidential elections.
Absolutely. But that right doesn’t mean I or anyone else has to like neo-Nazis or the KKK or believe that they’re just there because they love a statue. And most of them were not citizens of Charlottesville.
I don’t know, but I would guess that a lot more of the counter-protesters were from Charlottesville or thereabout. I know the young woman who was killed was born in Charlottesville and worked in Charlottesville and lived just minutes from Charlottesville. I know the guy who killed her was from Kentucky/Ohio.
Marty, C’ville doesn’t want Robert E. Lee. Raise the money, and buy the statue – I’ll support that.
You’re not David Duke, but you’re not fighting him.
My dad fought in WWII. People his age weren’t lemmings. He knew folks (his brothers) who weren’t anxious to fight the Nazis. He had no use for them.
I have read your comments, and am happy that you don’t identify with alt-right. Thanks. But you, at the very least, need to vote for the person who can win against the alt-right candidates.
You failed in 2016. Do better.
Marty, C’ville doesn’t want Robert E. Lee. Raise the money, and buy the statue – I’ll support that.
You’re not David Duke, but you’re not fighting him.
My dad fought in WWII. People his age weren’t lemmings. He knew folks (his brothers) who weren’t anxious to fight the Nazis. He had no use for them.
I have read your comments, and am happy that you don’t identify with alt-right. Thanks. But you, at the very least, need to vote for the person who can win against the alt-right candidates.
You failed in 2016. Do better.
And in rereading before you ever commented there was a you in there that I would have preferred be they. My apologies, I assume nothing if the sort about you, or russell.
All good, Marty.
And in rereading before you ever commented there was a you in there that I would have preferred be they. My apologies, I assume nothing if the sort about you, or russell.
All good, Marty.
I object to the consistent drumbeat of some that lumps me in with David Duke.
Everybody gets lumped in with somebody they don’t belong with.
Sometimes you just have to let it roll off your back.
I object to the consistent drumbeat of some that lumps me in with David Duke.
Everybody gets lumped in with somebody they don’t belong with.
Sometimes you just have to let it roll off your back.
Yeah sapient,you failed too. I hope to have a better choice by 2020.
Yeah sapient,you failed too. I hope to have a better choice by 2020.
They are just people who agree. In this case, people who agree to demand that someone else be fired. George Orwell, your time has come.
But you aren’t using the term “mob” in its traditional literal sense, McKinney. Did they have pitchforks? Were they smashing windows and torching buildings? Or were they emailing someone, writing, “This is what I think you should do!”?
A guy got fired for pissing off most of his company – and unnecessarily, at that. Not over something trivial, either.
They are just people who agree. In this case, people who agree to demand that someone else be fired. George Orwell, your time has come.
But you aren’t using the term “mob” in its traditional literal sense, McKinney. Did they have pitchforks? Were they smashing windows and torching buildings? Or were they emailing someone, writing, “This is what I think you should do!”?
A guy got fired for pissing off most of his company – and unnecessarily, at that. Not over something trivial, either.
Yeah sapient,you failed too.
No. I didn’t. I’m quite comfortable that if I die tonight, I did what was right, even if my cause didn’t prevail.
Your middle finger? We’re there. Shame on you.
Yeah sapient,you failed too.
No. I didn’t. I’m quite comfortable that if I die tonight, I did what was right, even if my cause didn’t prevail.
Your middle finger? We’re there. Shame on you.
I guess I have one more thing to say about the whole Charlottesville mess.
Upthread Marty offered his opinion that violence was the problem. I’m not sure that’s so. To be perfectly honest, I think a forceful response to people who want to reduce entire other demographics to a second-class legal status, or eliminate their presence altogether, is completely justifiable.
When I say that I am not sympathetic to, for instance, antifa or the black bloc folks, it’s not because they use force to resist fascists. It’s because I don’t think they are effective. They provoke violence, when that is neither necessary or useful.
I don’t think that white supremacists or domestic fascists or Nazis are of sufficient strength in numbers at this point to warrant a forcible response. At the moment, they remain a fringe element, albeit one which is accepted or at least tolerated by a disturbing number of people. At the moment, all that a forcible response will do is reinforce their sense of victimhood, and solidify their sense of being engaged in an existential struggle.
My opinion is that appropriate responses right now are (a) public safety presence at their gatherings to make sure they don’t hurt people, (b) the police and intelligence services should be up their behinds morning noon and night, and (c) ordinary people should do their best to remind them that people who aren’t like them are not their enemy, and that they are capable of being better people than what they presently present themselves to be.
But if they manage to become a serious social and political threat, which is not out of the question, a forcible response is IMO both justifiable and worthy of consideration.
They want to eliminate people who aren’t like them. That is an evil doctrine, and it should not be allowed to stand.
So no, the fundamental problem here is not violence. At some point, violence might be a necessary part of the solution to the problem. We should all hope that never comes to pass.
But the fundamental problem is the presence of people in our nation and society who can not and will not accept the presence of people who are not like them. That position *is not tenable* in our nation, society, and culture at this point. We’ve spent a lot of blood, for many many years, to achieve that, and we must not relinquish it.
I guess I have one more thing to say about the whole Charlottesville mess.
Upthread Marty offered his opinion that violence was the problem. I’m not sure that’s so. To be perfectly honest, I think a forceful response to people who want to reduce entire other demographics to a second-class legal status, or eliminate their presence altogether, is completely justifiable.
When I say that I am not sympathetic to, for instance, antifa or the black bloc folks, it’s not because they use force to resist fascists. It’s because I don’t think they are effective. They provoke violence, when that is neither necessary or useful.
I don’t think that white supremacists or domestic fascists or Nazis are of sufficient strength in numbers at this point to warrant a forcible response. At the moment, they remain a fringe element, albeit one which is accepted or at least tolerated by a disturbing number of people. At the moment, all that a forcible response will do is reinforce their sense of victimhood, and solidify their sense of being engaged in an existential struggle.
My opinion is that appropriate responses right now are (a) public safety presence at their gatherings to make sure they don’t hurt people, (b) the police and intelligence services should be up their behinds morning noon and night, and (c) ordinary people should do their best to remind them that people who aren’t like them are not their enemy, and that they are capable of being better people than what they presently present themselves to be.
But if they manage to become a serious social and political threat, which is not out of the question, a forcible response is IMO both justifiable and worthy of consideration.
They want to eliminate people who aren’t like them. That is an evil doctrine, and it should not be allowed to stand.
So no, the fundamental problem here is not violence. At some point, violence might be a necessary part of the solution to the problem. We should all hope that never comes to pass.
But the fundamental problem is the presence of people in our nation and society who can not and will not accept the presence of people who are not like them. That position *is not tenable* in our nation, society, and culture at this point. We’ve spent a lot of blood, for many many years, to achieve that, and we must not relinquish it.
Question: who can honestly say they are surprised by either Marty’s or McKinney’s positions in this thread?
I feel sure that neither Marty nor McKinney are surprised by the positions of us Yankee libruls, either, of course.
So, in a feeble attempt to break out of character, let me say that if the city council of Charlottesville had voted to remove a statue of iconic southerner Mark Twain from a place of public honor, I would have joined the out-of-state Klansmen (if any) who gathered to protest. And if my coworkers “voted me off the island” for my pro-Twain views, I’d hire McKinney to sue them for “mobbing” me.
–TP
Question: who can honestly say they are surprised by either Marty’s or McKinney’s positions in this thread?
I feel sure that neither Marty nor McKinney are surprised by the positions of us Yankee libruls, either, of course.
So, in a feeble attempt to break out of character, let me say that if the city council of Charlottesville had voted to remove a statue of iconic southerner Mark Twain from a place of public honor, I would have joined the out-of-state Klansmen (if any) who gathered to protest. And if my coworkers “voted me off the island” for my pro-Twain views, I’d hire McKinney to sue them for “mobbing” me.
–TP
Weird dream, Tony P.
Weird dream, Tony P.
There’s a giant clothespin statue in Philadelphia. If they ever try to remove it, I’m showing up with wet laundry. Maybe I’ll smash a dryer with a sledge hammer while I’m there, too.
There’s a giant clothespin statue in Philadelphia. If they ever try to remove it, I’m showing up with wet laundry. Maybe I’ll smash a dryer with a sledge hammer while I’m there, too.
Shorter McK: “Mob” means exactly what I intend it to mean, regardless of what others understand by it. I am the master of words, not they of me.
“Twitter mob.” Sheesh.
Shorter McK: “Mob” means exactly what I intend it to mean, regardless of what others understand by it. I am the master of words, not they of me.
“Twitter mob.” Sheesh.
Even shorter McK, verbatim (to LJ, 11:28 pm)
a name-caller extraordinaire. You are without substance. A Twinkie.
**********************************
I’d say that makes McK a name-caller pretty ordinaire, wouldn’t you?
Sheesh (again).
Even shorter McK, verbatim (to LJ, 11:28 pm)
a name-caller extraordinaire. You are without substance. A Twinkie.
**********************************
I’d say that makes McK a name-caller pretty ordinaire, wouldn’t you?
Sheesh (again).
I doubt Damore would have been fired by rump on The Apprentice, it being a sort of unionized shop.
I doubt Damore would have been fired by rump on The Apprentice, it being a sort of unionized shop.
I came on here thinking that I might offer my own experience as a hiring manager in support of the proposition that achieving gender balance in at least one highly technical field cannot currently be achieved by a gender-blind hiring policy. And to say that, in my opinion, firing a dissident is a rum way to advance diversity.
But I read this:
The Confedaracy was not Nazi Germany. It seceded over slavery, but the union didn’t attack the sovereign country to its South over to free the slaves, it attacked and conquered the Confederate States over economics. This is not tearing down Hitler statues, Lee didn’t start the war, the North did that.
The Confederacy went to war (which, to be accurate, it started) in defence of the idea that it was OK to treat human beings as livestock. Lee, who personally endorsed that idea, was responsible through his military actions for a large fraction of the deaths in that war, which number about half of all US military deaths ever.
I would vote to remove any statue of him from my town. (If the vote went against me, I’d leave it at that.) And I would condemn anyone who marched alongside a collection of neo-nazis, Klansmen, and white supremacists.
I’ll say that again. Neo-Nazis, Ku-Klux Klan, white supremacists. The President of the USA says there were very fine people marching with them.
No. No fine person is willing to march with such evil men. If your reaction to such marchers is to protest that the Confederacy, the would-be country of slavers, has been sadly misunderstood, then ask yourself: which side am I on.
I came on here thinking that I might offer my own experience as a hiring manager in support of the proposition that achieving gender balance in at least one highly technical field cannot currently be achieved by a gender-blind hiring policy. And to say that, in my opinion, firing a dissident is a rum way to advance diversity.
But I read this:
The Confedaracy was not Nazi Germany. It seceded over slavery, but the union didn’t attack the sovereign country to its South over to free the slaves, it attacked and conquered the Confederate States over economics. This is not tearing down Hitler statues, Lee didn’t start the war, the North did that.
The Confederacy went to war (which, to be accurate, it started) in defence of the idea that it was OK to treat human beings as livestock. Lee, who personally endorsed that idea, was responsible through his military actions for a large fraction of the deaths in that war, which number about half of all US military deaths ever.
I would vote to remove any statue of him from my town. (If the vote went against me, I’d leave it at that.) And I would condemn anyone who marched alongside a collection of neo-nazis, Klansmen, and white supremacists.
I’ll say that again. Neo-Nazis, Ku-Klux Klan, white supremacists. The President of the USA says there were very fine people marching with them.
No. No fine person is willing to march with such evil men. If your reaction to such marchers is to protest that the Confederacy, the would-be country of slavers, has been sadly misunderstood, then ask yourself: which side am I on.
I can’t disagree with any of that, Pro Bono – though I think fired guy’s offence (from the company’s point of view) was to appear to advance the proposition that male/female biological differences (as opposed to culturally determined ones) were part of the reason for the 80/20’gender ratio in tech.
That the US lacks even minimal legally mandated discipline and grievance procedures seems to me to be part of the problem. The issue might hsve been far better addressed with a formal written warning to the guy, reiterating company policies – which might also have served to cool the temperature and placate McKinney’s ‘mob’…
As far as the ‘red tape’ argument is concerned, I don’t think that at least minimal standards are any kind of undue burden on all but the smallest of companies – which might in any case be exempted. To say that they would be a burden to a company the size of Google is quite simply absurd.
In any event, while president gives every appearance of palling up with domestic terrorists, a reasoned debate on employment practises seems unlikely.
I can’t disagree with any of that, Pro Bono – though I think fired guy’s offence (from the company’s point of view) was to appear to advance the proposition that male/female biological differences (as opposed to culturally determined ones) were part of the reason for the 80/20’gender ratio in tech.
That the US lacks even minimal legally mandated discipline and grievance procedures seems to me to be part of the problem. The issue might hsve been far better addressed with a formal written warning to the guy, reiterating company policies – which might also have served to cool the temperature and placate McKinney’s ‘mob’…
As far as the ‘red tape’ argument is concerned, I don’t think that at least minimal standards are any kind of undue burden on all but the smallest of companies – which might in any case be exempted. To say that they would be a burden to a company the size of Google is quite simply absurd.
In any event, while president gives every appearance of palling up with domestic terrorists, a reasoned debate on employment practises seems unlikely.
McT, I guess your razor sharp legal mind is not up to the point I made. You came in and claimed that everyone ‘here’ is a enabler that made Damore’s firing possible. Given that none of us are on Pichai’s speed dial, by your definition of enablement, I can call you a trump enabler and therefore a Neo-nazi enabler. I’m only going off of the definitions you set up. I personally would worry about that kind of argumentation if you were my lawyer, but fortunately, that’s not going to happen.
Of course, if you look at what you wrote, it looks like that the last line is just a throwaway line to start a fight because you can’t argue the case on its merits. Well, if you shit in the nest, don’t be surprised you get some on your suit, cupcake…
McT, I guess your razor sharp legal mind is not up to the point I made. You came in and claimed that everyone ‘here’ is a enabler that made Damore’s firing possible. Given that none of us are on Pichai’s speed dial, by your definition of enablement, I can call you a trump enabler and therefore a Neo-nazi enabler. I’m only going off of the definitions you set up. I personally would worry about that kind of argumentation if you were my lawyer, but fortunately, that’s not going to happen.
Of course, if you look at what you wrote, it looks like that the last line is just a throwaway line to start a fight because you can’t argue the case on its merits. Well, if you shit in the nest, don’t be surprised you get some on your suit, cupcake…
achieving gender balance in at least one highly technical field cannot currently be achieved by a gender-blind hiring policy…
This appears to be quite on point…
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/magazine-40936719/gender-specific-toys-do-you-stereotype-children
achieving gender balance in at least one highly technical field cannot currently be achieved by a gender-blind hiring policy…
This appears to be quite on point…
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/magazine-40936719/gender-specific-toys-do-you-stereotype-children
Nigel comes closer to most to understanding Danmore’s position but it’s clear he hasn’t actually read what Danmore said or the links I provided. Nor has anyone else so far. It is enough to stand on orthodoxy to rebut what you think Danmore said. And from that position to reject the notion that firing someone because a band/group/herd of his employees were offended and felt entitled to demand he be fired is wrong–not illegal, just wrong. No one has studied the actual evidence. Which makes this discussion both impossible and pointless. The majority here doesn’t need the actual evidence because it already “knows” what happened. Once Danmore was labeled as a misogynist, he never had a chance in this quarter. What a world you would have people live in. A dictatorship of the mind.
Nigel comes closer to most to understanding Danmore’s position but it’s clear he hasn’t actually read what Danmore said or the links I provided. Nor has anyone else so far. It is enough to stand on orthodoxy to rebut what you think Danmore said. And from that position to reject the notion that firing someone because a band/group/herd of his employees were offended and felt entitled to demand he be fired is wrong–not illegal, just wrong. No one has studied the actual evidence. Which makes this discussion both impossible and pointless. The majority here doesn’t need the actual evidence because it already “knows” what happened. Once Danmore was labeled as a misogynist, he never had a chance in this quarter. What a world you would have people live in. A dictatorship of the mind.
Nor has anyone else so far.
assertion without evidence.
no chance other people just see things you don’t? of course not. only your interpretation is valid.
Nor has anyone else so far.
assertion without evidence.
no chance other people just see things you don’t? of course not. only your interpretation is valid.
Fine. Give me a direct quote from Danmore that justifies his coemployees’ outrage. And, it is quite rich for you to criticize someone for arguing by assertion. Just read your comments upthread.
Fine. Give me a direct quote from Danmore that justifies his coemployees’ outrage. And, it is quite rich for you to criticize someone for arguing by assertion. Just read your comments upthread.
I found this small paragraph buried in a NYT article this morning:
my bold.
80%. Both sides. I go back to my earlier gang comparison. These people came looking for a fight, both sides.
No russell, it is not ok to have antifas fighting Neo Nazis just because we hate what Neo-Nazis stand for. Violence is the problem. Using weapons to silence other people is bad, no matter who does it or what they are saying.
The police can take care of the people that actually try to commit genocide. They just struggle to control violent mobs.
I found this small paragraph buried in a NYT article this morning:
my bold.
80%. Both sides. I go back to my earlier gang comparison. These people came looking for a fight, both sides.
No russell, it is not ok to have antifas fighting Neo Nazis just because we hate what Neo-Nazis stand for. Violence is the problem. Using weapons to silence other people is bad, no matter who does it or what they are saying.
The police can take care of the people that actually try to commit genocide. They just struggle to control violent mobs.
Oddly cleek I asked the same question yesterday.
yup. that was the ‘coincidence’ i referred to.
—
either LJ or Cleek will opine that the actual words don’t matter. What matters is they offended others.
i’ve read his manifesto. it’s absurd.
anyone who says “…this likely evolved because…” while referring to a human behavior is bullshitting you. they are telling you a “Just So” story. but that’s what he bases his screed on: ad hoc handwaving dressed up in bullet points and unlabeled graphs. it’s a sham.
but, yes, it matters a great deal that he offended others. declaring that a large percentage of your co-workers are probably fundamentally unfit to be there is certainly grounds for firing. people have to work together at a place like Google; but his manifesto works to drive a wedge between the people who work there. he’s not only showing his own delusional thinking – which is problem enough – he’s also trying to convince others that the women who work there now – and who might work there in the future – might just be unfit to do so.
you don’t see how Google would think that is a potential problem?
your insistence that this doesn’t matter is truly absurd, and makes it clear that you haven’t actually thought about this, or don’t care to. you just picked this topic as a way to scream about liberals.
Oddly cleek I asked the same question yesterday.
yup. that was the ‘coincidence’ i referred to.
—
either LJ or Cleek will opine that the actual words don’t matter. What matters is they offended others.
i’ve read his manifesto. it’s absurd.
anyone who says “…this likely evolved because…” while referring to a human behavior is bullshitting you. they are telling you a “Just So” story. but that’s what he bases his screed on: ad hoc handwaving dressed up in bullet points and unlabeled graphs. it’s a sham.
but, yes, it matters a great deal that he offended others. declaring that a large percentage of your co-workers are probably fundamentally unfit to be there is certainly grounds for firing. people have to work together at a place like Google; but his manifesto works to drive a wedge between the people who work there. he’s not only showing his own delusional thinking – which is problem enough – he’s also trying to convince others that the women who work there now – and who might work there in the future – might just be unfit to do so.
you don’t see how Google would think that is a potential problem?
your insistence that this doesn’t matter is truly absurd, and makes it clear that you haven’t actually thought about this, or don’t care to. you just picked this topic as a way to scream about liberals.
The ratio of men in prison to women is about 14 to 1. How fair is that? Women are being discriminated against. There needs to be an immediate government program to ensure women are better represented in prisons.
The ratio of men in prison to women is about 14 to 1. How fair is that? Women are being discriminated against. There needs to be an immediate government program to ensure women are better represented in prisons.
“yup. that was the ‘coincidence’ i referred to.”
Do you think he read my comment?
“yup. that was the ‘coincidence’ i referred to.”
Do you think he read my comment?
Ok, that’s your quote. Then you are dishonest. He never implied much less said women are limited in anyway much less unfit. Interacting with you is pointless.
Ok, that’s your quote. Then you are dishonest. He never implied much less said women are limited in anyway much less unfit. Interacting with you is pointless.
Nope, I have read the memo, and I label Danmore not as a misogynist, but as not very smart, which is probably equally prejudicial to his continued employment at Google.
(The BBC program I linked to above rather neatly rebuts his biological determinist views, btw.)
‘A dictatorship of the mind’ – nonsense, IMO. If one of your associates published a memo claiming that your entire legal philosophy was bollocks, it probably wouldn’t go down too well with you either…
You might be on stronger ground arguing about the concentration of power in the tech industry, with a very small number of companies wielding effectively monopoly power – including that of insisting their employees toe the company line.
Nope, I have read the memo, and I label Danmore not as a misogynist, but as not very smart, which is probably equally prejudicial to his continued employment at Google.
(The BBC program I linked to above rather neatly rebuts his biological determinist views, btw.)
‘A dictatorship of the mind’ – nonsense, IMO. If one of your associates published a memo claiming that your entire legal philosophy was bollocks, it probably wouldn’t go down too well with you either…
You might be on stronger ground arguing about the concentration of power in the tech industry, with a very small number of companies wielding effectively monopoly power – including that of insisting their employees toe the company line.
Fine. Give me a direct quote from Danmore that justifies his coemployees’ outrage.
there is no short quote which will do that. the trouble is his overall argument.
the manifesto is a pseudo-scientific justification for sexism. he think his pop-evo-psych rationalizations justify his desire that Google stop trying to hire women for what he says is blind pursuit of diversity. but his science is fundamentally and clearly bogus. that leaves his opposition to diversity, specifically where it involves women. this is obvious and this is what people are reacting to.
Fine. Give me a direct quote from Danmore that justifies his coemployees’ outrage.
there is no short quote which will do that. the trouble is his overall argument.
the manifesto is a pseudo-scientific justification for sexism. he think his pop-evo-psych rationalizations justify his desire that Google stop trying to hire women for what he says is blind pursuit of diversity. but his science is fundamentally and clearly bogus. that leaves his opposition to diversity, specifically where it involves women. this is obvious and this is what people are reacting to.
Ok, that’s your quote.
no, fool. your comment hadn’t shown up when i wrote that.
He never implied much less said women are limited in anyway much less unfit. I
actually, he does. you’d know this if you read it.
and
those neurotic women just prefer low stress jobs, because biology says they must.
pseudoscience.
Ok, that’s your quote.
no, fool. your comment hadn’t shown up when i wrote that.
He never implied much less said women are limited in anyway much less unfit. I
actually, he does. you’d know this if you read it.
and
those neurotic women just prefer low stress jobs, because biology says they must.
pseudoscience.
There’s a giant clothespin statue in Philadelphia
there’s a statue of elizabeth montgomery in her role as samantha stevens in downtown salem ma.
if they try to tear that down, i’m gonna dress up like dr bombay and cast spells on everyone.
which will make it pretty much a nomal day in salem.
Using weapons to silence other people is bad
i agree.
and using force, including weapons, to prevent some people from killing or terrorizing other people, is justifiable. IMO. you are entitled to yours, that’s mine.
i do not support antifa, i’ve spent time in their company in their earlier ‘black bloc’ incarnations, and in general i think they are provocative rabble-rousing trouble-makers. as you say, they come looking for a fight.
that said, there is a difference between people who want to eliminate other people, and people who want to fight people who want to eliminate other people.
i don’t support either, but i recognize that they are not the same.
what ideally should have happened in charlottesville was for the cops to keep the two groups far enough apart that they would not be able to fight. unfortunately that did not happen.
but hell yeah, if white supremos become a sufficiently threatening force – if for example they achieve the level of power they held in this country for the entire jim crow period – then IMO forcible resistance would be legitimate.
if you come and try to kill me or burn my house down, i will fight you. if you come to kill my neighbor or burn his or her house down, i will fight you. and that would be a correct response.
the notion that firing someone because a band/group/herd of his employees were offended and felt entitled to demand he be fired is wrong
a reasonable point.
know what? if you piss off your employer, they’ll fire you. if you piss off a lot of your fellow employees, your employer might fire you. it’s called being disruptive.
i’d be interested in pro bono’s comments, and nigel’s, because they actually are interested in the substance.
you’re just here to scold all of us liberals for our intolerance. so i’m not really interested in having this conversation with you any further.
we live in a hire at will environment. which you endorse, albeit with caveats.
in that environment, google, or anyone, can fire someone simply for being a PITA. *the substance of damore’s comments is irrelevant to that point*. that’s why it doesn’t matter if i’ve read his screed or not.
if you piss off your employer, you’ll probably get canned. damore pissed google off. they canned him.
i would be interested in a discussion of why women might or might not choose tech careers. i suspect biology is not the whole picture.
There’s a giant clothespin statue in Philadelphia
there’s a statue of elizabeth montgomery in her role as samantha stevens in downtown salem ma.
if they try to tear that down, i’m gonna dress up like dr bombay and cast spells on everyone.
which will make it pretty much a nomal day in salem.
Using weapons to silence other people is bad
i agree.
and using force, including weapons, to prevent some people from killing or terrorizing other people, is justifiable. IMO. you are entitled to yours, that’s mine.
i do not support antifa, i’ve spent time in their company in their earlier ‘black bloc’ incarnations, and in general i think they are provocative rabble-rousing trouble-makers. as you say, they come looking for a fight.
that said, there is a difference between people who want to eliminate other people, and people who want to fight people who want to eliminate other people.
i don’t support either, but i recognize that they are not the same.
what ideally should have happened in charlottesville was for the cops to keep the two groups far enough apart that they would not be able to fight. unfortunately that did not happen.
but hell yeah, if white supremos become a sufficiently threatening force – if for example they achieve the level of power they held in this country for the entire jim crow period – then IMO forcible resistance would be legitimate.
if you come and try to kill me or burn my house down, i will fight you. if you come to kill my neighbor or burn his or her house down, i will fight you. and that would be a correct response.
the notion that firing someone because a band/group/herd of his employees were offended and felt entitled to demand he be fired is wrong
a reasonable point.
know what? if you piss off your employer, they’ll fire you. if you piss off a lot of your fellow employees, your employer might fire you. it’s called being disruptive.
i’d be interested in pro bono’s comments, and nigel’s, because they actually are interested in the substance.
you’re just here to scold all of us liberals for our intolerance. so i’m not really interested in having this conversation with you any further.
we live in a hire at will environment. which you endorse, albeit with caveats.
in that environment, google, or anyone, can fire someone simply for being a PITA. *the substance of damore’s comments is irrelevant to that point*. that’s why it doesn’t matter if i’ve read his screed or not.
if you piss off your employer, you’ll probably get canned. damore pissed google off. they canned him.
i would be interested in a discussion of why women might or might not choose tech careers. i suspect biology is not the whole picture.
The ratio of men in prison to women is about 14 to 1. How fair is that? Women are being discriminated against. There needs to be an immediate government program to ensure women are better represented in prisons.
As you already incarcerate at a level far in excess of any other nation on earth, you might want to reconsider how best to address that imbalance.
But to answer your point, yes it’s absolutely reasonable to argue that criminal justice reform efforts ought to be gender biased.
The ratio of men in prison to women is about 14 to 1. How fair is that? Women are being discriminated against. There needs to be an immediate government program to ensure women are better represented in prisons.
As you already incarcerate at a level far in excess of any other nation on earth, you might want to reconsider how best to address that imbalance.
But to answer your point, yes it’s absolutely reasonable to argue that criminal justice reform efforts ought to be gender biased.
you don’t see how Google would think that is a potential problem?
allow me to esplain it.
tech talent at the google level is a really really tight market. it costs a lot to recruit good talent, and every other shop will continually be trying to poach your best people.
tech workers also talk to each other, all the time, about their workplaces. what’s a good shop, who are the jerks, what’s it really like to work there. people move around a lot, so you will likely keep bumping into the same faces over time.
if damore pisses off lots of his fellow workers with his magnum opus, and google does nothing, then that makes it harder for google to hire and keep people. google becomes the shop where That Asshole works.
that costs google money. maybe a lot of money.
bye bye damore.
you don’t see how Google would think that is a potential problem?
allow me to esplain it.
tech talent at the google level is a really really tight market. it costs a lot to recruit good talent, and every other shop will continually be trying to poach your best people.
tech workers also talk to each other, all the time, about their workplaces. what’s a good shop, who are the jerks, what’s it really like to work there. people move around a lot, so you will likely keep bumping into the same faces over time.
if damore pisses off lots of his fellow workers with his magnum opus, and google does nothing, then that makes it harder for google to hire and keep people. google becomes the shop where That Asshole works.
that costs google money. maybe a lot of money.
bye bye damore.
lol. cleek’s cites make we want to go read damore’s thing now. it sounds like a hoot.
lol. cleek’s cites make we want to go read damore’s thing now. it sounds like a hoot.
As you already incarcerate at a level far in excess of any other nation on earth, …
The US is wealthy enough to have a lot of really stupid laws and get away with it after a fashion. The wars on various economic activities involving drugs, sex, and gambling are just wars against its own people.
As you already incarcerate at a level far in excess of any other nation on earth, …
The US is wealthy enough to have a lot of really stupid laws and get away with it after a fashion. The wars on various economic activities involving drugs, sex, and gambling are just wars against its own people.
Shorter Google…. it’s fine to think outside of the box, but first you must actually think.
Shorter Google…. it’s fine to think outside of the box, but first you must actually think.
(The BBC program I linked to above rather neatly rebuts his biological determinist views, btw.)
No matter how gender neutral you raise children, you’re never going to get a 50/50 representation in STEM. You might increase female representation if you delayed puberty a few years.
(The BBC program I linked to above rather neatly rebuts his biological determinist views, btw.)
No matter how gender neutral you raise children, you’re never going to get a 50/50 representation in STEM. You might increase female representation if you delayed puberty a few years.
First, Google does not work remotely in a pure at will environment. They work in California who, with the possible exception of Massachusetts, have the most employee protection laws in the US.
Second, my initial comment was not an indictment of Google specifically or at will employment, it was a cultural observation that people feel that they can punish other people by taking away their jobs.
That starts at NFL players losing their jobs to popular demand which denigrates into the NFL being a completely separate court system. Then, since that worked so well we use it now for anyone we don’t like, just get enough internet traffic to trend and we can take your livelihood.
Which is ok until its Colin Kaepernick who gets rolled out of the NFL because the right wing doesn’t like his protest, and they watch football. Then it’s discrimination.
I have hired and fired and laid off and written up thousands of employees across 5 or 6 countries and 20 states all of which had their own employment laws and regulations. I actually fired a few people for sexual harassment or creating a hostile work environment. In every case I had to carefully document that we had followed all those employment laws.
Never once did I fire anyone for sending out a company wide email that was critical of company policy(there were a few of those. Nor did we check to see if our employees agreed with our social agenda. In fact, more than once I warned my management team that it was inappropriate for them to encourage their employees to vote a certain way or support a certain cause.
So no russell, I am not living in some consulting tower or whatever, I am remarking on a problematic(to me) change in our cultural assumptions.
First, Google does not work remotely in a pure at will environment. They work in California who, with the possible exception of Massachusetts, have the most employee protection laws in the US.
Second, my initial comment was not an indictment of Google specifically or at will employment, it was a cultural observation that people feel that they can punish other people by taking away their jobs.
That starts at NFL players losing their jobs to popular demand which denigrates into the NFL being a completely separate court system. Then, since that worked so well we use it now for anyone we don’t like, just get enough internet traffic to trend and we can take your livelihood.
Which is ok until its Colin Kaepernick who gets rolled out of the NFL because the right wing doesn’t like his protest, and they watch football. Then it’s discrimination.
I have hired and fired and laid off and written up thousands of employees across 5 or 6 countries and 20 states all of which had their own employment laws and regulations. I actually fired a few people for sexual harassment or creating a hostile work environment. In every case I had to carefully document that we had followed all those employment laws.
Never once did I fire anyone for sending out a company wide email that was critical of company policy(there were a few of those. Nor did we check to see if our employees agreed with our social agenda. In fact, more than once I warned my management team that it was inappropriate for them to encourage their employees to vote a certain way or support a certain cause.
So no russell, I am not living in some consulting tower or whatever, I am remarking on a problematic(to me) change in our cultural assumptions.
Baltimore removes it’s Confederate monuments.
Baltimore removes it’s Confederate monuments.
First, Google does not work remotely in a pure at will environment. They work in California who, with the possible exception of Massachusetts, have the most employee protection laws in the US.
I trust the courts to decide his case, and look forward to more discussions where McKinney and Marty support stronger protections for employees.
First, Google does not work remotely in a pure at will environment. They work in California who, with the possible exception of Massachusetts, have the most employee protection laws in the US.
I trust the courts to decide his case, and look forward to more discussions where McKinney and Marty support stronger protections for employees.
McKinney – so I read the first link, part of the (very very long) second, and most of the memo, and, eh.
Without knowing what google’s policies are and reviewing all its statement’s about why it fired him and his response (I saw at a different link he said he was fired for “perpetuating gender stereotypes”) and who he distributed it to at google (I was blessedly on vacation during the meat of this), it seems like a fireable offense to me, even if everything he posits in the memo is god’s honest truth (which he is not fit to judge, which is at least part of the problem with him drafting and circulating it).
McKinney – so I read the first link, part of the (very very long) second, and most of the memo, and, eh.
Without knowing what google’s policies are and reviewing all its statement’s about why it fired him and his response (I saw at a different link he said he was fired for “perpetuating gender stereotypes”) and who he distributed it to at google (I was blessedly on vacation during the meat of this), it seems like a fireable offense to me, even if everything he posits in the memo is god’s honest truth (which he is not fit to judge, which is at least part of the problem with him drafting and circulating it).
either LJ or Cleek will opine that the actual words don’t matter. What matters is they offended others.
LJ is too busy studying Korean for a stint there (if it’s still there when he’s supposed to go) to spend anytime on Damore’s bullshit. But when you drop in to tell everyone here what they think and, as russell notes, just piss off liberals, it’s noticed.
LJ also notices that Marty has hired and fired thousands yet can’t seem to get a break on his health insurance. Do tell Ozymandias.
Why don’t you two captains of industry do something about this sad state of affairs rather than haunt the comments section of this dictatorship of the mind?
Ok, that’s your quote.
Or maybe figure out that comments are asynchronous. That would be a start.
Interacting with you is pointless.
Well, I think we can agree on that…
either LJ or Cleek will opine that the actual words don’t matter. What matters is they offended others.
LJ is too busy studying Korean for a stint there (if it’s still there when he’s supposed to go) to spend anytime on Damore’s bullshit. But when you drop in to tell everyone here what they think and, as russell notes, just piss off liberals, it’s noticed.
LJ also notices that Marty has hired and fired thousands yet can’t seem to get a break on his health insurance. Do tell Ozymandias.
Why don’t you two captains of industry do something about this sad state of affairs rather than haunt the comments section of this dictatorship of the mind?
Ok, that’s your quote.
Or maybe figure out that comments are asynchronous. That would be a start.
Interacting with you is pointless.
Well, I think we can agree on that…
It’s not even god’s honest opinion, let alone truth:
https://www.wired.com/story/the-pernicious-science-of-james-damores-google-memo/
Marty, this was not the company checking to see if he “agreed with its social agenda”, but rather responding to a direct attack on its recruitment policy.
It’s not even god’s honest opinion, let alone truth:
https://www.wired.com/story/the-pernicious-science-of-james-damores-google-memo/
Marty, this was not the company checking to see if he “agreed with its social agenda”, but rather responding to a direct attack on its recruitment policy.
I’ve always held “women in prison” movies, a la Roger Corman, to be more entertaining than male prison movies.
I’m going to read Damore’s deal when I return to Denver.
But does anyone know if Damore had hiring, interviewing, or firing responsibilities at Google?
Also, did he work closely with any female colleagues?
I was once fired for walking past my boss at 9:45 am. But I was trying to sneak into work late and there she was. She didn’t seem to possess any of the female qualities Damore might find unsuitable for certain positions. It was just like being fired by my Dad.
I could have used a little empathy.
I’ve always held “women in prison” movies, a la Roger Corman, to be more entertaining than male prison movies.
I’m going to read Damore’s deal when I return to Denver.
But does anyone know if Damore had hiring, interviewing, or firing responsibilities at Google?
Also, did he work closely with any female colleagues?
I was once fired for walking past my boss at 9:45 am. But I was trying to sneak into work late and there she was. She didn’t seem to possess any of the female qualities Damore might find unsuitable for certain positions. It was just like being fired by my Dad.
I could have used a little empathy.
First, Google does not work remotely in a pure at will environment.
Then I’m sure Damore will see them in court.
So no russell, I am not living in some consulting tower or whatever
Fair enough.
I worked in a shop that had some work environment issues. As almost all places do.
One woman I worked with decided to address these by circulating emails to everyone in my department, outlining exactly how the management policies were deficient.
Most of the substance of what she had to say was actually not unreasonable. Going about it the way she did was disruptive and destructive of overall morale and productivity.
She got the ax. That’s how it goes.
If we want to introduce policies in this country to make it harder for employers to fire people, I’d be open to that. There doesn’t seem to be much of a constituency for it, so I doubt it will change.
To the substance of Damore’s writings, I’ve been building software systems for 30+ years. I’ve worked with women, and for women, and have directed the activities of women.
I don’t see any substantive difference in the performance of the women I’ve worked with – for decades – as compared to the men.
So from my point of view, Damore has a heavy freaking lift ahead of him.
Basically, I’m not really that interested in reading his stuff because life’s too short and I don’t really give a crap what he has to say.
I’m not interested in figuring out who’s right and who’s wrong on the substance between he and Google, because it’s Google’s company and they can set whatever policies they think are in their interests, within the bounds of the law.
Shorter me: it’s none of my beeswax. I don’t care.
I’m out of patience with McK on the topic because his agenda appears to be 100% taking All Of Us Liberals to task for our blinkered intolerance.
See my comment above about “life’s too short”.
Thanks for your insights on the topic, I appreciate them.
First, Google does not work remotely in a pure at will environment.
Then I’m sure Damore will see them in court.
So no russell, I am not living in some consulting tower or whatever
Fair enough.
I worked in a shop that had some work environment issues. As almost all places do.
One woman I worked with decided to address these by circulating emails to everyone in my department, outlining exactly how the management policies were deficient.
Most of the substance of what she had to say was actually not unreasonable. Going about it the way she did was disruptive and destructive of overall morale and productivity.
She got the ax. That’s how it goes.
If we want to introduce policies in this country to make it harder for employers to fire people, I’d be open to that. There doesn’t seem to be much of a constituency for it, so I doubt it will change.
To the substance of Damore’s writings, I’ve been building software systems for 30+ years. I’ve worked with women, and for women, and have directed the activities of women.
I don’t see any substantive difference in the performance of the women I’ve worked with – for decades – as compared to the men.
So from my point of view, Damore has a heavy freaking lift ahead of him.
Basically, I’m not really that interested in reading his stuff because life’s too short and I don’t really give a crap what he has to say.
I’m not interested in figuring out who’s right and who’s wrong on the substance between he and Google, because it’s Google’s company and they can set whatever policies they think are in their interests, within the bounds of the law.
Shorter me: it’s none of my beeswax. I don’t care.
I’m out of patience with McK on the topic because his agenda appears to be 100% taking All Of Us Liberals to task for our blinkered intolerance.
See my comment above about “life’s too short”.
Thanks for your insights on the topic, I appreciate them.
Gotta say, the health insurance thing with Marty occurred to me too.
Don’t wanna link on my IPad, because I’m neurotically prone to screw it up, but on Business Insider Damore admits regretting the use of the word “neurotic”.
Also, one of scientists Damore linked to in support of his thesis has revealed that the man mis-used the former’s study in it’s application to Google.
I can’t tell whether that’s a guy thing or not …… to misrepresent.
Gotta say, the health insurance thing with Marty occurred to me too.
Don’t wanna link on my IPad, because I’m neurotically prone to screw it up, but on Business Insider Damore admits regretting the use of the word “neurotic”.
Also, one of scientists Damore linked to in support of his thesis has revealed that the man mis-used the former’s study in it’s application to Google.
I can’t tell whether that’s a guy thing or not …… to misrepresent.
Cleek on what is and is not science:
actually, he does. you’d know this if you read it.
I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership.
and
* Neuroticism (higher anxiety, lower stress tolerance). ○ This may contribute to the higher levels of anxiety women report on Googlegeist and to the lower number of women in high stress jobs.
those neurotic women just prefer low stress jobs, because biology says they must.
pseudoscience.
Leave aside Danmore’s use of the conditional “may” which Cleek completely ignores in misstating Danmore’s position, and leave aside the pejorative connotation Cleek imputes to neuroticism, let’s look at facts. Parenthetically, my information comes from Wikipedia as does the lengthy quote below.
Danmore’s first quote posits the possibility that evolution–which we all believe in–produced different abilities and preferences in men and women over time. I’m going to give this a “yes, that well may the case”, based on male upper body strength, tendency toward aggression and a whole host of other behaviors. I’ll also refer you to my second link. Really, it’s worth reading in its entirety.
His second quote is more than defensible, even if it could have been phrased more astutely.
First, what is neuroticism? Is it a disorder? No. It is one of Five Personality Traits.
What is it exactly? Hard to say.
Neuroticism is a trait in many models within personality theory, but there is little agreement on its definition. Some define it as a tendency for quick arousal when stimulated and slow relaxation from arousal; others define it as emotional instability and negativity or maladjustment, in contrast to emotional stability and positivity, or good adjustment. Others yet define it as lack of self-control, poor ability to manage psychological stress, and a tendency to complain.
Is neuroticism more prevalent among one gender than the other? Why, yes, it is. Is there a physiological component? Why, there just might be.
A 2013 review found that groups associated with higher levels of neuroticism are young adults who are at high risk for mood disorders and women.[22]
For gender, the same review found that “research in large samples has shown that levels of N (neuroticism) are higher in women than men. This is a robust finding that is consistent across cultures. This is especially the case during the reproductive years, but is also visible in children and elderly.” It furthermore said that EEG responses showed clear differences between the genders in individuals with high N levels, but no functional MRI studies have yet been performed to investigate the differences in genders regarding N. However, there is a reason to suspect physiological differences to play a role because of previous studies that showed for example, a correlation between the size of the subgenual anterior cingulate cortex and N in female teenagers, so “the issue of sex differences in N and the implications for understanding N’s neurobiological basis deserve more detailed and systematic investigation.”[22]
So, that’s the science part of it. Now back to Danmore: he makes two factual assertions: (1)that women report higher levels of anxiety at Googlegeist and (2) there are lower numbers of women in high stress jobs.
And, again, he uses the conditional “may” (“This may contribute . . .”).
No one contested his factual assertions: women report higher stress levels and fewer women are in high stress positions.
Where Danmore ruffled feathers was his use of the N word–neuroticism–and in suggesting that women being more subject to that particular trait, which in turn “may” account for the facts recited. Turns out he was making a factually supportable statement as to the “more subject to” part of the statement. The second part–higher stress levels in women and (implicitly)stress being generally unpleasant, women may prefer not to expose themselves to stress-inducing conditions–was offered by Danmore as a counter possibility to the lower number of women in CS at Google. In what universe does that merit the level of outrage that resulted in his termination?
I conced that “Factually supportable statement” is not synonymous with “universally recognized and accepted fact”. Even if I find the evidence credible and persuasive and consistent with my observations that women, in the aggregate, do less well under most high stress situations, that doesn’t mean there aren’t other schools of thought on the subject. Parenthetically, whatever physiological component there might be is minimal compared to environmental factors, in my view. As an example, 30 years ago, there were far fewer women trial lawyers than there are today. Thirty years ago, a woman walking into court faced a whole range of obstacles–because of her physical sex–that men didn’t face. That would amp up anyone’s stress level.
Back to Danmore, Google and mob justice. The full context of Danmore’s email includes the fact that Google is an aggressively Progressive and ‘inclusive’ environment. Progressive gender theory is very much a part of the culture. No penalty is paid by taking the opposite, conforming position at Google and people routinely do so. IOW, it is an environment that encourages people to verbalize their commitment to the Google brand of diversity. Ok, that’s fine, I suppose. Stultifying for those who don’t worship at that altar, but that’s a different thing.
If a part of a company’s culture is the aggressive promotion and discussion of a particular philosophy/belief/whatever, as a matter of principle, i.e. moral or ethical right vs wrong, it seems that, if dissent is not going to be tolerated as a part of the discussion, potential dissenters should be given fair notice of that fact, e.g. “Google is an open-minded, inclusive environment where we value diversity in all of its aspects. Statements that disrespect our culture and might cause harm to those who are here because of our culture will not be tolerated and are grounds for dismissal”. Leaving aside the double-think necessary to entertain these two notions side-by-side, isn’t it kind of shitty to encourage discussion and then penalize someone who participates but then deviates from orthodoxy?
Well, no it isn’t, per Cleek and many others here. It is disruptive. It’s psuedo science (I really like that one). It’s the company’s right (I’ll keep that one in mind the next time Citizen’s United is on the horizon). It’s not a mob (it’s something else, we’ll get back to you on what it is later).
Here is a bit more on neuroticism, just for fun:
Cross-cultural research has shown some patterns of gender differences on responses to the NEO-PI-R and the Big Five Inventory.[108] For example, women consistently report higher Neuroticism, Agreeableness, warmth (an extraversion facet) and openness to feelings, and men often report higher assertiveness (a facet of extraversion) and openness to ideas as assessed by the NEO-PI-R.[109]
A study of gender differences in 55 nations using the Big Five Inventory found that women tended to be somewhat higher than men in neuroticism, extraversion, agreeableness, and conscientiousness. The difference in neuroticism was the most prominent and consistent, with significant differences found in 49 of the 55 nations surveyed. Gender differences in personality traits are largest in prosperous, healthy, and more gender-egalitarian cultures. A plausible explanation for this is that acts by women in individualistic, egalitarian countries are more likely to be attributed to their personality, rather than being attributed to ascribed gender roles within collectivist, traditional countries.[109] Differences in the magnitude of sex differences between more or less developed world regions were due to differences between men, not women, in these respective regions. That is, men in highly developed world regions were less neurotic, extraverted, conscientious and agreeable compared to men in less developed world regions. Women, on the other hand tended not to differ in personality traits across regions.[110] The authors of this study speculated that resource-poor environments (that is, countries with low levels of development) may inhibit the development of gender differences, whereas resource-rich environments facilitate them. This may be because males require more resources than females in order to reach their full developmental potential. The authors also argued that due to different evolutionary pressures, men may have evolved to be more risk taking and socially dominant, whereas women evolved to be more cautious and nurturing. Ancient hunter-gatherer societies may have been more egalitarian than later agriculturally oriented societies. Hence, the development of gender inequalities may have acted to constrain the development of gender differences in personality that originally evolved in hunter-gatherer societies. As modern societies have become more egalitarian, again, it may be that innate sex differences are no longer constrained and hence manifest more fully than in less-developed cultures. Currently, this hypothesis remains untested, as gender differences in modern societies have not been compared with those in hunter-gatherer societies.[110]
So, Danmore was not pulling stuff out of thin air. A lot of the above runs counter to Progressive doctrine. So what. Do Progressives have a special right to be so offended that they are entitled to demand another’s job for the crime of offending Progressive thought?
i suspect biology is not the whole picture.
There almost never is a “whole” picture, but I agree with this statement. Again, referring particularly to my second link, the real issue is that the US, Canada and Europe in particular offer a huge range of career options to women that aren’t available in most other countries–more the freedom to choose rather than the options themselves–and the result is, through a process of self-selection, that women are over-represented in some professions/career specialties and underrepresented in others. So, biology is a small part of the picture. Choice is the big part. Women get to choose.
After more than a day of this, I’m exhausted and way behind in other stuff. I’m outnumbered and I’m out of gas. Adios.
Cleek on what is and is not science:
actually, he does. you’d know this if you read it.
I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership.
and
* Neuroticism (higher anxiety, lower stress tolerance). ○ This may contribute to the higher levels of anxiety women report on Googlegeist and to the lower number of women in high stress jobs.
those neurotic women just prefer low stress jobs, because biology says they must.
pseudoscience.
Leave aside Danmore’s use of the conditional “may” which Cleek completely ignores in misstating Danmore’s position, and leave aside the pejorative connotation Cleek imputes to neuroticism, let’s look at facts. Parenthetically, my information comes from Wikipedia as does the lengthy quote below.
Danmore’s first quote posits the possibility that evolution–which we all believe in–produced different abilities and preferences in men and women over time. I’m going to give this a “yes, that well may the case”, based on male upper body strength, tendency toward aggression and a whole host of other behaviors. I’ll also refer you to my second link. Really, it’s worth reading in its entirety.
His second quote is more than defensible, even if it could have been phrased more astutely.
First, what is neuroticism? Is it a disorder? No. It is one of Five Personality Traits.
What is it exactly? Hard to say.
Neuroticism is a trait in many models within personality theory, but there is little agreement on its definition. Some define it as a tendency for quick arousal when stimulated and slow relaxation from arousal; others define it as emotional instability and negativity or maladjustment, in contrast to emotional stability and positivity, or good adjustment. Others yet define it as lack of self-control, poor ability to manage psychological stress, and a tendency to complain.
Is neuroticism more prevalent among one gender than the other? Why, yes, it is. Is there a physiological component? Why, there just might be.
A 2013 review found that groups associated with higher levels of neuroticism are young adults who are at high risk for mood disorders and women.[22]
For gender, the same review found that “research in large samples has shown that levels of N (neuroticism) are higher in women than men. This is a robust finding that is consistent across cultures. This is especially the case during the reproductive years, but is also visible in children and elderly.” It furthermore said that EEG responses showed clear differences between the genders in individuals with high N levels, but no functional MRI studies have yet been performed to investigate the differences in genders regarding N. However, there is a reason to suspect physiological differences to play a role because of previous studies that showed for example, a correlation between the size of the subgenual anterior cingulate cortex and N in female teenagers, so “the issue of sex differences in N and the implications for understanding N’s neurobiological basis deserve more detailed and systematic investigation.”[22]
So, that’s the science part of it. Now back to Danmore: he makes two factual assertions: (1)that women report higher levels of anxiety at Googlegeist and (2) there are lower numbers of women in high stress jobs.
And, again, he uses the conditional “may” (“This may contribute . . .”).
No one contested his factual assertions: women report higher stress levels and fewer women are in high stress positions.
Where Danmore ruffled feathers was his use of the N word–neuroticism–and in suggesting that women being more subject to that particular trait, which in turn “may” account for the facts recited. Turns out he was making a factually supportable statement as to the “more subject to” part of the statement. The second part–higher stress levels in women and (implicitly)stress being generally unpleasant, women may prefer not to expose themselves to stress-inducing conditions–was offered by Danmore as a counter possibility to the lower number of women in CS at Google. In what universe does that merit the level of outrage that resulted in his termination?
I conced that “Factually supportable statement” is not synonymous with “universally recognized and accepted fact”. Even if I find the evidence credible and persuasive and consistent with my observations that women, in the aggregate, do less well under most high stress situations, that doesn’t mean there aren’t other schools of thought on the subject. Parenthetically, whatever physiological component there might be is minimal compared to environmental factors, in my view. As an example, 30 years ago, there were far fewer women trial lawyers than there are today. Thirty years ago, a woman walking into court faced a whole range of obstacles–because of her physical sex–that men didn’t face. That would amp up anyone’s stress level.
Back to Danmore, Google and mob justice. The full context of Danmore’s email includes the fact that Google is an aggressively Progressive and ‘inclusive’ environment. Progressive gender theory is very much a part of the culture. No penalty is paid by taking the opposite, conforming position at Google and people routinely do so. IOW, it is an environment that encourages people to verbalize their commitment to the Google brand of diversity. Ok, that’s fine, I suppose. Stultifying for those who don’t worship at that altar, but that’s a different thing.
If a part of a company’s culture is the aggressive promotion and discussion of a particular philosophy/belief/whatever, as a matter of principle, i.e. moral or ethical right vs wrong, it seems that, if dissent is not going to be tolerated as a part of the discussion, potential dissenters should be given fair notice of that fact, e.g. “Google is an open-minded, inclusive environment where we value diversity in all of its aspects. Statements that disrespect our culture and might cause harm to those who are here because of our culture will not be tolerated and are grounds for dismissal”. Leaving aside the double-think necessary to entertain these two notions side-by-side, isn’t it kind of shitty to encourage discussion and then penalize someone who participates but then deviates from orthodoxy?
Well, no it isn’t, per Cleek and many others here. It is disruptive. It’s psuedo science (I really like that one). It’s the company’s right (I’ll keep that one in mind the next time Citizen’s United is on the horizon). It’s not a mob (it’s something else, we’ll get back to you on what it is later).
Here is a bit more on neuroticism, just for fun:
Cross-cultural research has shown some patterns of gender differences on responses to the NEO-PI-R and the Big Five Inventory.[108] For example, women consistently report higher Neuroticism, Agreeableness, warmth (an extraversion facet) and openness to feelings, and men often report higher assertiveness (a facet of extraversion) and openness to ideas as assessed by the NEO-PI-R.[109]
A study of gender differences in 55 nations using the Big Five Inventory found that women tended to be somewhat higher than men in neuroticism, extraversion, agreeableness, and conscientiousness. The difference in neuroticism was the most prominent and consistent, with significant differences found in 49 of the 55 nations surveyed. Gender differences in personality traits are largest in prosperous, healthy, and more gender-egalitarian cultures. A plausible explanation for this is that acts by women in individualistic, egalitarian countries are more likely to be attributed to their personality, rather than being attributed to ascribed gender roles within collectivist, traditional countries.[109] Differences in the magnitude of sex differences between more or less developed world regions were due to differences between men, not women, in these respective regions. That is, men in highly developed world regions were less neurotic, extraverted, conscientious and agreeable compared to men in less developed world regions. Women, on the other hand tended not to differ in personality traits across regions.[110] The authors of this study speculated that resource-poor environments (that is, countries with low levels of development) may inhibit the development of gender differences, whereas resource-rich environments facilitate them. This may be because males require more resources than females in order to reach their full developmental potential. The authors also argued that due to different evolutionary pressures, men may have evolved to be more risk taking and socially dominant, whereas women evolved to be more cautious and nurturing. Ancient hunter-gatherer societies may have been more egalitarian than later agriculturally oriented societies. Hence, the development of gender inequalities may have acted to constrain the development of gender differences in personality that originally evolved in hunter-gatherer societies. As modern societies have become more egalitarian, again, it may be that innate sex differences are no longer constrained and hence manifest more fully than in less-developed cultures. Currently, this hypothesis remains untested, as gender differences in modern societies have not been compared with those in hunter-gatherer societies.[110]
So, Danmore was not pulling stuff out of thin air. A lot of the above runs counter to Progressive doctrine. So what. Do Progressives have a special right to be so offended that they are entitled to demand another’s job for the crime of offending Progressive thought?
i suspect biology is not the whole picture.
There almost never is a “whole” picture, but I agree with this statement. Again, referring particularly to my second link, the real issue is that the US, Canada and Europe in particular offer a huge range of career options to women that aren’t available in most other countries–more the freedom to choose rather than the options themselves–and the result is, through a process of self-selection, that women are over-represented in some professions/career specialties and underrepresented in others. So, biology is a small part of the picture. Choice is the big part. Women get to choose.
After more than a day of this, I’m exhausted and way behind in other stuff. I’m outnumbered and I’m out of gas. Adios.
I can easily believe that Marty has the work experience and history that he claims, and also has difficulty getting health insurance at an affordable rate.
He’s sorta-kinda my age and if you’re that age and looking for work in a senior position, time between gigs can be fairly long. I.e. years.
So you fill in the blanks with consulting. Which means you buy your own insurance. Which means you’re in the individual market, but you make too much money to get subsidies.
Which means you pay and pay and pay.
It’s a weak point in the ACA and one that should be fixed.
I can easily believe that Marty has the work experience and history that he claims, and also has difficulty getting health insurance at an affordable rate.
He’s sorta-kinda my age and if you’re that age and looking for work in a senior position, time between gigs can be fairly long. I.e. years.
So you fill in the blanks with consulting. Which means you buy your own insurance. Which means you’re in the individual market, but you make too much money to get subsidies.
Which means you pay and pay and pay.
It’s a weak point in the ACA and one that should be fixed.
If Salem ever gets rid of its Elizabeth Montgomery statue, I’d be happy to take it off their hands.
Is Barbara Eden available as well.
If Salem ever gets rid of its Elizabeth Montgomery statue, I’d be happy to take it off their hands.
Is Barbara Eden available as well.
Only in my dreams.
Only in my dreams.
Totally OT, but LOL…
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40948722
Totally OT, but LOL…
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40948722
and leave aside the pejorative connotation Cleek imputes to neuroticism
this is how i know you’re just lawyering.
type ‘neuroticism’ into Google and it gives you, as the featured snippet:
and leave aside the pejorative connotation Cleek imputes to neuroticism
this is how i know you’re just lawyering.
type ‘neuroticism’ into Google and it gives you, as the featured snippet:
my blockquote runneth over
my blockquote runneth over
One positive thing I think I can say about Damore is that if neo-Nazis decided to erect a statue of him, he would have it toppled.
Speaking of statues, I was looking at the Statue of Liberty late last night through my binoculars from the top observation deck of the Empire State Building and it occurred to me that the White House is full of jackasses who are desecrating its significance and would tear it down if they could.
Huddled masses yearning to breathe free, my rear end. The original poem attached to her majesty has been tagged and desecrated by Bannon/Miller to read:
“First, No more huddling, it looks suspicious. And stop speaking that gibberish. Say, ‘Trump is a very very great very man, the greatest” And as for breathing freely, when Scott Pruitt, who goes nowhere in the EPA building without armed guards, gets done with you, you’ll be choking down particular matter and fluorocarbons and you’ll call it winning and will never get tired of it”
Pruitt is toppling statutes that protect us.
About every ten blocks in the city, there is a person, and that person had better be the right kind of person, dressed as the Statue of Liberty and folks have photographs taken with her/him. I noticed though a difference on this trip. Now, when the Statue spies a foreign looking individual in the crowd, which is just about everyone, she/he (and THAT is bugging rump as well) raises its arm, points, and emits a high pitched squeal like in the second movie version of Invasion of The Body Snatchers. And then bellows “get the fuck out of my country, and I don’t mean France”.
The other day, I was served a cannoli in Little Italy by a young Asian woman who had a pretty noticeable accent. I walked three blocks into Chinatown and was served a bowl of noodles by a vaguely swarthy guy who looked like a young Al Pacino. He tawlked funny ovah yeah, not like me from flyover country, what we call the homeland.
Neither of them seemed neurotic or otherwise unsuitable for their vocations.
I don’t know how rump is going to sort all of that out, the sheer humanity he intends to fuck.
I love New York City and will tell you more if I get the chance. It unsheathes all of my nerve endings and fires up every synapse I have left.
I dance down the sidewalks like a flash mob.
One positive thing I think I can say about Damore is that if neo-Nazis decided to erect a statue of him, he would have it toppled.
Speaking of statues, I was looking at the Statue of Liberty late last night through my binoculars from the top observation deck of the Empire State Building and it occurred to me that the White House is full of jackasses who are desecrating its significance and would tear it down if they could.
Huddled masses yearning to breathe free, my rear end. The original poem attached to her majesty has been tagged and desecrated by Bannon/Miller to read:
“First, No more huddling, it looks suspicious. And stop speaking that gibberish. Say, ‘Trump is a very very great very man, the greatest” And as for breathing freely, when Scott Pruitt, who goes nowhere in the EPA building without armed guards, gets done with you, you’ll be choking down particular matter and fluorocarbons and you’ll call it winning and will never get tired of it”
Pruitt is toppling statutes that protect us.
About every ten blocks in the city, there is a person, and that person had better be the right kind of person, dressed as the Statue of Liberty and folks have photographs taken with her/him. I noticed though a difference on this trip. Now, when the Statue spies a foreign looking individual in the crowd, which is just about everyone, she/he (and THAT is bugging rump as well) raises its arm, points, and emits a high pitched squeal like in the second movie version of Invasion of The Body Snatchers. And then bellows “get the fuck out of my country, and I don’t mean France”.
The other day, I was served a cannoli in Little Italy by a young Asian woman who had a pretty noticeable accent. I walked three blocks into Chinatown and was served a bowl of noodles by a vaguely swarthy guy who looked like a young Al Pacino. He tawlked funny ovah yeah, not like me from flyover country, what we call the homeland.
Neither of them seemed neurotic or otherwise unsuitable for their vocations.
I don’t know how rump is going to sort all of that out, the sheer humanity he intends to fuck.
I love New York City and will tell you more if I get the chance. It unsheathes all of my nerve endings and fires up every synapse I have left.
I dance down the sidewalks like a flash mob.
McKinney, even though I really don’t agree with your opinions, and your TLDR post completely misses the point, I do sympathise with your outnumbered and out of gas feelings.
FWIW, in the UK this would have probably been dealt with by way of a written warning (possibly alongside instructions to read the Wired article and get up to speed on what science actually has and hasn’t got to say about the matter).
The company would have put out a statement saying they were investigating the matter in line with their written disciplinary procedure, all would have gone quiet, the silly Mr Danmore would probably have kept his job, and the culture wars would have been nipped in the bud.
But since you think some basic standard employment protections could bring about economic disaster….
McKinney, even though I really don’t agree with your opinions, and your TLDR post completely misses the point, I do sympathise with your outnumbered and out of gas feelings.
FWIW, in the UK this would have probably been dealt with by way of a written warning (possibly alongside instructions to read the Wired article and get up to speed on what science actually has and hasn’t got to say about the matter).
The company would have put out a statement saying they were investigating the matter in line with their written disciplinary procedure, all would have gone quiet, the silly Mr Danmore would probably have kept his job, and the culture wars would have been nipped in the bud.
But since you think some basic standard employment protections could bring about economic disaster….
No matter how gender neutral you raise children, you’re never going to get a 50/50 representation in STEM…
That’s a straw person argument, Charles.
What is pretty obvious to me is that biological determinism doesn’t account for an 80/20 disparity.
No matter how gender neutral you raise children, you’re never going to get a 50/50 representation in STEM…
That’s a straw person argument, Charles.
What is pretty obvious to me is that biological determinism doesn’t account for an 80/20 disparity.
After reading both cleek’s and McTX”s quote offerings from Damore Danmore, I’ve come to realize that I am a young adult woman who doesn’t know coding from floor wax.
After reading both cleek’s and McTX”s quote offerings from Damore Danmore, I’ve come to realize that I am a young adult woman who doesn’t know coding from floor wax.
same
same
A good and thoughtful article on the ‘antifa’ movement:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/what-trump-gets-wrong-about-antifa/537048/
A good and thoughtful article on the ‘antifa’ movement:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/what-trump-gets-wrong-about-antifa/537048/
Endless contra-Damore
https://www.economist.com/news/21726276-last-week-paper-said-alphabets-boss-should-write-detailed-ringing-rebuttal?cid1=cust%2Fddnew%2Fn%2Fn%2Fn%2F20170815n%2Fowned%2Fn%2Fn%2Fnwl%2Fn%2Fn%2Fna%2FDaily_Dispatch%2Femail
Endless contra-Damore
https://www.economist.com/news/21726276-last-week-paper-said-alphabets-boss-should-write-detailed-ringing-rebuttal?cid1=cust%2Fddnew%2Fn%2Fn%2Fn%2F20170815n%2Fowned%2Fn%2Fn%2Fnwl%2Fn%2Fn%2Fna%2FDaily_Dispatch%2Femail
“Google is a capitalist enterprise. We believe in The Free Market and The Invisible Hand. We operate on the principle that Profit is the measure of our service to Society.”
That might well be Google’s true credo. It might well be unwritten because it’s too widely accepted to be worth the bother to write it down. Nonetheless I suspect that there are one or two socialists working at Google. I would not advise them to send out long memos about it, unless they can afford McKinney’s services when they get fired.
–TP
“Google is a capitalist enterprise. We believe in The Free Market and The Invisible Hand. We operate on the principle that Profit is the measure of our service to Society.”
That might well be Google’s true credo. It might well be unwritten because it’s too widely accepted to be worth the bother to write it down. Nonetheless I suspect that there are one or two socialists working at Google. I would not advise them to send out long memos about it, unless they can afford McKinney’s services when they get fired.
–TP
What is pretty obvious to me is that biological determinism doesn’t account for an 80/20 disparity.
‘biological determinism’ has been a favored position of people trying to justify various -isms since the beginning of time.
by now we should know that any claim that biology is responsible for the difference between that group‘s behavior and the speaker’s group’s behavior should immediately set off BS detectors. maybe the claim is true, maybe not. but it should never be accepted without serious scrutiny.
—
i was standing in our daily stand-up team meeting this AM, with the question of women coders on my mind. so i looked around the room and counted.
on my current team, there are five male ‘developers’ and two women. there are also eight female ‘testers’ and three male. but, given the nature of this project the testers are actually coders too. they write Java, Groovy and SAS code to exercise the Java, C and SAS code the developers write. and to test things, they have to have a bigger view of things than i do – they frequently have to know more about the overall system than i do. and so i often ask them how – or peek at their code to see how – they did XYZ because i know the code they’re writing has to do XYZ to test things. and vice versa: they ask us how to talk to this or that module because it’s not documented yet, or whatever.
now, i won’t speculate as to why the testers have more women than men and vice versa for ‘developers’. but, when i ask myself if any of the testers, women or men, could do my job, the answer is: absolutely.
What is pretty obvious to me is that biological determinism doesn’t account for an 80/20 disparity.
‘biological determinism’ has been a favored position of people trying to justify various -isms since the beginning of time.
by now we should know that any claim that biology is responsible for the difference between that group‘s behavior and the speaker’s group’s behavior should immediately set off BS detectors. maybe the claim is true, maybe not. but it should never be accepted without serious scrutiny.
—
i was standing in our daily stand-up team meeting this AM, with the question of women coders on my mind. so i looked around the room and counted.
on my current team, there are five male ‘developers’ and two women. there are also eight female ‘testers’ and three male. but, given the nature of this project the testers are actually coders too. they write Java, Groovy and SAS code to exercise the Java, C and SAS code the developers write. and to test things, they have to have a bigger view of things than i do – they frequently have to know more about the overall system than i do. and so i often ask them how – or peek at their code to see how – they did XYZ because i know the code they’re writing has to do XYZ to test things. and vice versa: they ask us how to talk to this or that module because it’s not documented yet, or whatever.
now, i won’t speculate as to why the testers have more women than men and vice versa for ‘developers’. but, when i ask myself if any of the testers, women or men, could do my job, the answer is: absolutely.
now, i won’t speculate as to why the testers have more women than men and vice versa for ‘developers’.
Writing original code is proactive. Testing existing code reactive. 🙂
now, i won’t speculate as to why the testers have more women than men and vice versa for ‘developers’.
Writing original code is proactive. Testing existing code reactive. 🙂
I’m sorry McKinney’s decided to drop out of this thread. Because I think I’ve got a much less fraught way to look at the whole question of how justifiable Danmore’s firing was.
Like a bunch of folks here, I work in IT. Back in the early 1970s when I first started working, my employer (Bank of America in San Francisco, as it happens) required that all men wear a coat and tie at work. I could take my coat off while actually sitting at my desk, but that was it. Even going to the building cafeteria required putting the coat back on. If I had shown up in a sport shirt and slacks, let alone anything less dressy, I would have been gone immediately, for violation of the company dress code.
Note that I had zero customer interactions — so no impact on the bottom like due to offended/shocked customers. For that matter, I was a system programmer, so I had zero interactions with any bankers or other people who did have customer interactions. Certainly my attire had no relationship to my ability to do my job. (Well, except for the days when I was crawling around pulling cables under the floor. When it had a negative relationship.)
Three decades later (working, at that point, for a stock brokerage house), I could wear jeans to work, no problem. I could even wear jeans and a T-shirt to a professional conference, and nobody would bat an eye.
So, would that firing back in the 1970s have been justified? If so, but Danmore’s wasn’t, where is the difference? Both appear to me to be matters of corporate culture, and the employer’s desire to maintain the one that they want.
I’m sorry McKinney’s decided to drop out of this thread. Because I think I’ve got a much less fraught way to look at the whole question of how justifiable Danmore’s firing was.
Like a bunch of folks here, I work in IT. Back in the early 1970s when I first started working, my employer (Bank of America in San Francisco, as it happens) required that all men wear a coat and tie at work. I could take my coat off while actually sitting at my desk, but that was it. Even going to the building cafeteria required putting the coat back on. If I had shown up in a sport shirt and slacks, let alone anything less dressy, I would have been gone immediately, for violation of the company dress code.
Note that I had zero customer interactions — so no impact on the bottom like due to offended/shocked customers. For that matter, I was a system programmer, so I had zero interactions with any bankers or other people who did have customer interactions. Certainly my attire had no relationship to my ability to do my job. (Well, except for the days when I was crawling around pulling cables under the floor. When it had a negative relationship.)
Three decades later (working, at that point, for a stock brokerage house), I could wear jeans to work, no problem. I could even wear jeans and a T-shirt to a professional conference, and nobody would bat an eye.
So, would that firing back in the 1970s have been justified? If so, but Danmore’s wasn’t, where is the difference? Both appear to me to be matters of corporate culture, and the employer’s desire to maintain the one that they want.
Testing existing code reactive
you wouldn’t be a good test engineer.
Testing existing code reactive
you wouldn’t be a good test engineer.
‘biological determinism’ has been a favored position of people trying to justify various -isms since the beginning of time.
We should also note that every time we finally stopped restricting what people were allowed to try to do on the basis of “biological determinism”, and just let them do it, they have turned out to be able to succeed just as well as anyone else. Every single time. Which makes it challenging to justify the thesis that this time is somehow different.
‘biological determinism’ has been a favored position of people trying to justify various -isms since the beginning of time.
We should also note that every time we finally stopped restricting what people were allowed to try to do on the basis of “biological determinism”, and just let them do it, they have turned out to be able to succeed just as well as anyone else. Every single time. Which makes it challenging to justify the thesis that this time is somehow different.
Nice post, wj.
I once had a company secretary who was old enough to have been required to use a pen and inkwell in his accountancy training…
Fountain pens were not allowed, and use of the newfangled biro (invented decades before) would have meant instant dismissal.
Nice post, wj.
I once had a company secretary who was old enough to have been required to use a pen and inkwell in his accountancy training…
Fountain pens were not allowed, and use of the newfangled biro (invented decades before) would have meant instant dismissal.
Nazis, ISIS, and rump believe Jews are biologically determined to charge a five-point vig over market rates when they lend.
And yet, look at what it takes to fire the three of them.
Rump of course has a workaround in his dealings ybecause he cuts out the bankers and borrows from East Coast and Russian Mafia.
Discuss.
If we posit that individuals are biologically determined for certain professions, fine, posit away.
But the next guy I hear telling a kid that in America you can grow up and be and do anything you want, I’m going to break every bone in that guy’s face.
You wanna live the biologically determined life, you don’t get to peddle dreamy American horseshit out the other side of your mouth.
One remarkable thing about rump is that he was biologically determined to be a congenital liar, a bully, a bulshitter, a swindler, and a fruitcake. And yet, he has ascended to the one job he was surely not biologically suitable for, the Presidency, though I’m sure the bullshitting comes in handy, the American people being what they are.
I congratulate the Bullshit American people for loosing the bonds of biological determinism in this one instance (all right, maybe Chester Arthur) and permitting our ruiNation at the hands of the ill-suited..
Nazis, ISIS, and rump believe Jews are biologically determined to charge a five-point vig over market rates when they lend.
And yet, look at what it takes to fire the three of them.
Rump of course has a workaround in his dealings ybecause he cuts out the bankers and borrows from East Coast and Russian Mafia.
Discuss.
If we posit that individuals are biologically determined for certain professions, fine, posit away.
But the next guy I hear telling a kid that in America you can grow up and be and do anything you want, I’m going to break every bone in that guy’s face.
You wanna live the biologically determined life, you don’t get to peddle dreamy American horseshit out the other side of your mouth.
One remarkable thing about rump is that he was biologically determined to be a congenital liar, a bully, a bulshitter, a swindler, and a fruitcake. And yet, he has ascended to the one job he was surely not biologically suitable for, the Presidency, though I’m sure the bullshitting comes in handy, the American people being what they are.
I congratulate the Bullshit American people for loosing the bonds of biological determinism in this one instance (all right, maybe Chester Arthur) and permitting our ruiNation at the hands of the ill-suited..
Certainly my attire had no relationship to my ability to do my job.
The story of my life. Or one of them. You can’t imagine how many times I’ve thanked the FSM that I live in this era and not earlier ones, for this reason alone.
She said, sitting at her work-at-home desk in shorts and a $6 t-shirt, barefoot. 😉
Certainly my attire had no relationship to my ability to do my job.
The story of my life. Or one of them. You can’t imagine how many times I’ve thanked the FSM that I live in this era and not earlier ones, for this reason alone.
She said, sitting at her work-at-home desk in shorts and a $6 t-shirt, barefoot. 😉
Not, for that matter, that anyone would care about the shorts or the t-shirt if I happened to be in the Cambridge office this week.
But I don’t go barefoot there. Maybe shoeless, but not sockless.
Not, for that matter, that anyone would care about the shorts or the t-shirt if I happened to be in the Cambridge office this week.
But I don’t go barefoot there. Maybe shoeless, but not sockless.
In the early ’90s, I had a programming job that required wearing a tie. Seem to reduce my IQ by at least 10 points. 🙁
In the early ’90s, I had a programming job that required wearing a tie. Seem to reduce my IQ by at least 10 points. 🙁
Newt Gingrich just compared me to the Taliban and ISIS, his compatriots in lethal horseshit.
He should know that in addition to being a young adult woman who couldn’t code her way out of a sundress, I also have a certain native facility for operating automatic weapons with enough accuracy that I rarely miss hitting fat fucks.
Newt Gingrich just compared me to the Taliban and ISIS, his compatriots in lethal horseshit.
He should know that in addition to being a young adult woman who couldn’t code her way out of a sundress, I also have a certain native facility for operating automatic weapons with enough accuracy that I rarely miss hitting fat fucks.
my first real job was an insurance company. suit and tie. they rang a bell when it was time to work, rang a bell at break times, rang a bell at lunch time, rang a bell to let you know it was time to go home.
to save time at break time, they had some nice older folks who would wheel a cart with coffee, juice, and some nice waxy pastries around the office.
it was actually a pretty nice job. good boss, nice people. i was a knucklehead in many ways, and they put up with me. i learned a lot. got me started in my fabulous tech career.
if you piss off your employer, they will probably fire you. if you have an issue with your company’s HR policies, have a discrete chat with your manager. don’t send multi-page emails explaining all the ways in which your employer is an idiot to folks in your office.
this is not rocket science. don’t poke people in the eye, they won’t poke you in the eye. if you’re working for the man, don’t try to stick it to the man. don’t bite the hand that feeds you.
right? easy peasy. it’s called ‘how to get along with other human beings in real life’.
which may be why it escapes the danmores of the world.
my first real job was an insurance company. suit and tie. they rang a bell when it was time to work, rang a bell at break times, rang a bell at lunch time, rang a bell to let you know it was time to go home.
to save time at break time, they had some nice older folks who would wheel a cart with coffee, juice, and some nice waxy pastries around the office.
it was actually a pretty nice job. good boss, nice people. i was a knucklehead in many ways, and they put up with me. i learned a lot. got me started in my fabulous tech career.
if you piss off your employer, they will probably fire you. if you have an issue with your company’s HR policies, have a discrete chat with your manager. don’t send multi-page emails explaining all the ways in which your employer is an idiot to folks in your office.
this is not rocket science. don’t poke people in the eye, they won’t poke you in the eye. if you’re working for the man, don’t try to stick it to the man. don’t bite the hand that feeds you.
right? easy peasy. it’s called ‘how to get along with other human beings in real life’.
which may be why it escapes the danmores of the world.
Certainly my attire had no relationship to my ability to do my job.
Ties are not good for you, so it’s quite possible it did…
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/srt/2011/692595/
Certainly my attire had no relationship to my ability to do my job.
Ties are not good for you, so it’s quite possible it did…
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/srt/2011/692595/
Most of the substance of what she had to say was actually not unreasonable. Going about it the way she did was disruptive and destructive of overall morale and productivity.
This quote makes for a good lead-in.
Even if this guy was 100% correct, which is a big concession to make for the sake of argument, why did he have to do what he did the way he did it? Would not sending his manifesto to his coworkers somehow made him unable to do his job properly? Would not doing so somehow threaten his health and well-being?
What particular need did he have to do what he did the way he did it that made it so wrong for Google to fire him for something that was obviously disruptive to their core mission?
How is it such a terrible injustice for a company to fire someone who laid out in excruciating detail why he personally thought their policy was wrong-headed and post it anonymously to a company forum?
Most of the substance of what she had to say was actually not unreasonable. Going about it the way she did was disruptive and destructive of overall morale and productivity.
This quote makes for a good lead-in.
Even if this guy was 100% correct, which is a big concession to make for the sake of argument, why did he have to do what he did the way he did it? Would not sending his manifesto to his coworkers somehow made him unable to do his job properly? Would not doing so somehow threaten his health and well-being?
What particular need did he have to do what he did the way he did it that made it so wrong for Google to fire him for something that was obviously disruptive to their core mission?
How is it such a terrible injustice for a company to fire someone who laid out in excruciating detail why he personally thought their policy was wrong-headed and post it anonymously to a company forum?
I knew there was a good reason I always hated neckties! (I thought it was strangulation, but this works, too.)
Happily, while I was required to wear a tie, once I got out of the Air Force (dress uniforms only, fortunately) nobody required me to wear it tied tightly. Sounds like Charles was less fortunate.
I knew there was a good reason I always hated neckties! (I thought it was strangulation, but this works, too.)
Happily, while I was required to wear a tie, once I got out of the Air Force (dress uniforms only, fortunately) nobody required me to wear it tied tightly. Sounds like Charles was less fortunate.
Shifting topics slightly, it appears that the President whose main claim to be able to do the job was what a great businessman he was has suffered a bit of a setback.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2017/08/16/after-wave-of-ceo-departures-trump-ends-business-and-manufacturing-councils/
So many CEOs abandoning ship, that it was less embarrassing to just disband his advisory councils.
Shifting topics slightly, it appears that the President whose main claim to be able to do the job was what a great businessman he was has suffered a bit of a setback.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2017/08/16/after-wave-of-ceo-departures-trump-ends-business-and-manufacturing-councils/
So many CEOs abandoning ship, that it was less embarrassing to just disband his advisory councils.
Seen reports that at least one of the council’s made the first move.
Seen reports that at least one of the council’s made the first move.
Sounds like Charles was less fortunate.
Yes, they wanted it snug and snap-ons were supposedly not allowed. But I gave on the ties and wore a snap-on and no one said anything to me.
Sounds like Charles was less fortunate.
Yes, they wanted it snug and snap-ons were supposedly not allowed. But I gave on the ties and wore a snap-on and no one said anything to me.
Donald no-mates.
Donald no-mates.
Note that these CEOs all had no problem with the whole “grab ’em by the pussy” and Mexican rapist comments, among others.
Note that these CEOs all had no problem with the whole “grab ’em by the pussy” and Mexican rapist comments, among others.
“Misogyny & xenophobia? Bygones! Where do I sign up?”
“Misogyny & xenophobia? Bygones! Where do I sign up?”
In rump’s mitochondria, they were fired. Like the Russian diplomats Putin sent home and rump fired for good measure.
I repeat: when rump is relieved of the Office he was biologically undetermined for, by whatever civilized legal means, he will repair to his lair with his heavily armed private security detail, his devotees, his family, the keys to the White House, and the government of the United States, AND the nuclear football.
His minions, red hatted and armed, will be a moat around whichever resort he calls the eagle’s nest. They will be hurt badly too.
It will take savage violence to get him out of there. People will die in the attempt. I’m going to visit rump rower today and I’ll try and surmise which exit/entrance his dead body will be emerging from as events unfold.
In rump’s mitochondria, they were fired. Like the Russian diplomats Putin sent home and rump fired for good measure.
I repeat: when rump is relieved of the Office he was biologically undetermined for, by whatever civilized legal means, he will repair to his lair with his heavily armed private security detail, his devotees, his family, the keys to the White House, and the government of the United States, AND the nuclear football.
His minions, red hatted and armed, will be a moat around whichever resort he calls the eagle’s nest. They will be hurt badly too.
It will take savage violence to get him out of there. People will die in the attempt. I’m going to visit rump rower today and I’ll try and surmise which exit/entrance his dead body will be emerging from as events unfold.
Ugh, it may well be that the did have a problem. Just not quite enough of one. And embracing the KKK and neo-Nazis was just the last straw.
Ugh, it may well be that the did have a problem. Just not quite enough of one. And embracing the KKK and neo-Nazis was just the last straw.
The CEOs are but a mob.
They’ll be back under Pence, god help us, to render whatever damage they can to America on behalf of their bottom lines.
The CEOs are but a mob.
They’ll be back under Pence, god help us, to render whatever damage they can to America on behalf of their bottom lines.
You can always spot a libertarian by the cut of his snap-on tie.
You can always spot a libertarian by the cut of his snap-on tie.
When I was a legislative staffer, the dress code was coat and tie. Particularly near the end of the session, those of us on the budget staff, whose offices were across the street from the Capitol, sometime got called on to run a committee meeting on the House or Senate floor on a minute’s notice*. It was always amusing to see one of us running across the street, juggling a pile of papers and trying to pull on a coat.
* Literally. We always listened to the audio from the House/Senate in our offices. Someone would introduce a floor amendment that had to be heard by the Appropriations Committee, whoever was chairing the House session would ask the committee chair when that could be done, and the committee chair would say for the record, “As soon as Mike gets here, unless someone manages to hit him while he’s running across 14th Avenue.”
When I was a legislative staffer, the dress code was coat and tie. Particularly near the end of the session, those of us on the budget staff, whose offices were across the street from the Capitol, sometime got called on to run a committee meeting on the House or Senate floor on a minute’s notice*. It was always amusing to see one of us running across the street, juggling a pile of papers and trying to pull on a coat.
* Literally. We always listened to the audio from the House/Senate in our offices. Someone would introduce a floor amendment that had to be heard by the Appropriations Committee, whoever was chairing the House session would ask the committee chair when that could be done, and the committee chair would say for the record, “As soon as Mike gets here, unless someone manages to hit him while he’s running across 14th Avenue.”
if you piss off your employer, they will probably fire you.
Yup…even if it’s for promoting unionizing the company workforce…
Said firing is technically against the law, but that doesn’t stop such terminations.
And where is McKinney on this? He certainly has managed to maintain radio silence on it forever. Not a peep. I guess he only gets his ire up if he gets an opportunity to trot out pseudoscientific theories.
If pushed, he undoubtedly will claim that sure, it’s against the law, so sue them under the provisions of the Wagner Act/NLRB decisions…in the full knowledge that it is a pretty toothless regulation, and employers just chalk it up to a ‘cost of doing business’.
So for this creep…same thing. He can go f*ck himself right after he calls his attorney. The courts are available to all, right?
(bobbyp falls down in fit of laughter).
Fair is fair. He most likely would not have been so readily terminated if he was in a union that had negotiated a strong grievance procedure, but whatever.
Freedom is as freedom does.
if you piss off your employer, they will probably fire you.
Yup…even if it’s for promoting unionizing the company workforce…
Said firing is technically against the law, but that doesn’t stop such terminations.
And where is McKinney on this? He certainly has managed to maintain radio silence on it forever. Not a peep. I guess he only gets his ire up if he gets an opportunity to trot out pseudoscientific theories.
If pushed, he undoubtedly will claim that sure, it’s against the law, so sue them under the provisions of the Wagner Act/NLRB decisions…in the full knowledge that it is a pretty toothless regulation, and employers just chalk it up to a ‘cost of doing business’.
So for this creep…same thing. He can go f*ck himself right after he calls his attorney. The courts are available to all, right?
(bobbyp falls down in fit of laughter).
Fair is fair. He most likely would not have been so readily terminated if he was in a union that had negotiated a strong grievance procedure, but whatever.
Freedom is as freedom does.
So many CEOs abandoning ship, that it was less embarrassing to just disband his advisory councils.
Ha! Just saw this last night. Now the reality is even worse.
http://www.theonion.com/article/presidents-american-manufacturing-council-down-ceo-56655
So many CEOs abandoning ship, that it was less embarrassing to just disband his advisory councils.
Ha! Just saw this last night. Now the reality is even worse.
http://www.theonion.com/article/presidents-american-manufacturing-council-down-ceo-56655
They’ll be back under Pence, god help us, to render whatever damage they can to America on behalf of their bottom lines.
No worries. That’s already being handled.
They’ll be back under Pence, god help us, to render whatever damage they can to America on behalf of their bottom lines.
No worries. That’s already being handled.
Personally, I’m tired and out of gas because I’m so sick of hearing any defence of theories that women are unfit or less fit or *may* be less fit for any intellectual work because of their biology. The studies that purport to show this are methodologically unsound because they neglect consideration of the societal factors historically acting on women which might, for example, increase neuroticism (I almost typed “hysteria” – Oh, that one’s obsolete now).I include CharlesWT:
No matter how gender neutral you raise children, you’re never going to get a 50/50 representation in STEM. You might increase female representation if you delayed puberty a few years
with its ignorance of factors like the way boys treat girls who are smarter than them.
And I’m really tired of people insulting other people, it must be because I’m a woman.
Personally, I’m tired and out of gas because I’m so sick of hearing any defence of theories that women are unfit or less fit or *may* be less fit for any intellectual work because of their biology. The studies that purport to show this are methodologically unsound because they neglect consideration of the societal factors historically acting on women which might, for example, increase neuroticism (I almost typed “hysteria” – Oh, that one’s obsolete now).I include CharlesWT:
No matter how gender neutral you raise children, you’re never going to get a 50/50 representation in STEM. You might increase female representation if you delayed puberty a few years
with its ignorance of factors like the way boys treat girls who are smarter than them.
And I’m really tired of people insulting other people, it must be because I’m a woman.
Posted before it was ready, but I stand by it.
Posted before it was ready, but I stand by it.
Endless contra-Damore
https://www.economist.com/news/21726276-last-week-paper-said-alphabets-boss-should-write-detailed-ringing-rebuttal?cid1=cust%2Fddnew%2Fn%2Fn%2Fn%2F20170815n%2Fowned%2Fn%2Fn%2Fnwl%2Fn%2Fn%2Fna%2FDaily_Dispatch%2Femail
Posted by: Ugh | August 16, 2017 at 11:43 AM
Everybody here should read this. Well worth the time. Thanks, Ugh.
Endless contra-Damore
https://www.economist.com/news/21726276-last-week-paper-said-alphabets-boss-should-write-detailed-ringing-rebuttal?cid1=cust%2Fddnew%2Fn%2Fn%2Fn%2F20170815n%2Fowned%2Fn%2Fn%2Fnwl%2Fn%2Fn%2Fna%2FDaily_Dispatch%2Femail
Posted by: Ugh | August 16, 2017 at 11:43 AM
Everybody here should read this. Well worth the time. Thanks, Ugh.
You might increase female representation if you delayed puberty a few years
I dunno’ ’bout that. This assertion contradicts many other studies that pretty much have convinced me most men never get very far past that stage to begin with.
You might increase female representation if you delayed puberty a few years
I dunno’ ’bout that. This assertion contradicts many other studies that pretty much have convinced me most men never get very far past that stage to begin with.
No matter how gender neutral you raise children, you’re never going to get a 50/50 representation in STEM.
I don’t mean that women on average are less qualified than men for STEM careers. But that, if you allow women to freely choose their careers, you’re unlikely to reach a 50/50 representation. To get that balance, you’re going to have limit somebody’s choices.
No matter how gender neutral you raise children, you’re never going to get a 50/50 representation in STEM.
I don’t mean that women on average are less qualified than men for STEM careers. But that, if you allow women to freely choose their careers, you’re unlikely to reach a 50/50 representation. To get that balance, you’re going to have limit somebody’s choices.
But that, if you allow women to freely choose their careers…
If you hand wave a little harder, Charles, you just might be able to fly.
But that, if you allow women to freely choose their careers…
If you hand wave a little harder, Charles, you just might be able to fly.
But that, if you allow women to freely choose their careers, you’re unlikely to reach a 50/50 representation.
[citation required]
But that, if you allow women to freely choose their careers, you’re unlikely to reach a 50/50 representation.
[citation required]
But that, if you allow women to freely choose their careers, you’re unlikely to reach a 50/50 representation.
[relevance required]
Hint: Google’s ratio was 4:1 favoring males. Last I checked, there were a bunch of numbers between 20 and 50.
But that, if you allow women to freely choose their careers, you’re unlikely to reach a 50/50 representation.
[relevance required]
Hint: Google’s ratio was 4:1 favoring males. Last I checked, there were a bunch of numbers between 20 and 50.
You might increase female representation if you delayed puberty a few years
I mean if puberty were delayed for girls a few years.
At puberty girls move from self-confidence to self-consciousness. At this point they start to censor themselves and become increasingly silent in class. They deny their intelligence. 31% of girls in elementary school say they are good at math. In middle school that number drops to 18%. The greatest drop occurs among the brightest girls.
Girls and science: why the gender gap exists and what to do about it: Study finds 15-year-old girls outperform their male counterparts around the world – except in the US, Britain and Canada
You might increase female representation if you delayed puberty a few years
I mean if puberty were delayed for girls a few years.
At puberty girls move from self-confidence to self-consciousness. At this point they start to censor themselves and become increasingly silent in class. They deny their intelligence. 31% of girls in elementary school say they are good at math. In middle school that number drops to 18%. The greatest drop occurs among the brightest girls.
Girls and science: why the gender gap exists and what to do about it: Study finds 15-year-old girls outperform their male counterparts around the world – except in the US, Britain and Canada
It’s also worth noting that Google is currently looking at a class action suit for seriously underpaying the women who work for them. The department of labor is in their grill.
Attorneys cost money.
Damore / Danmore / Dunmore / man of a thousand last name spellings stuck his foot in it. He’s attracting attention Google does not need right now. The predictable outcome occurred.
It will take savage violence to get him out of there
Here is my suggestion:
Invent by congressional fiat a new office – President Emeritus. It can be part of Cheney’s fourth branch of government.
Build a beautiful house. Made of gold, or at least gold-ish. It will be a very very good house, the best house. That is where President Emeritus gets to live.
The responsibilities of President Emeritus will be to hold rallies, fleece people who are staying in hotel properties owned by the feds, and maintain constant communication with the American public via social media and reality TV.
And play golf.
Plus, he gets a cool crown. And an unlimited lifetime supply of hair care product.
Offer Trump an offer he can’t refuse: President Emeritus, or a complete and thorough financial audit.
Then move on.
Pence will promote exactly zero policies that I’d be happy with, but at least somebody, somewhere, would get something done, some of the time.
There’s always 2018, and then 2020.
It’s also worth noting that Google is currently looking at a class action suit for seriously underpaying the women who work for them. The department of labor is in their grill.
Attorneys cost money.
Damore / Danmore / Dunmore / man of a thousand last name spellings stuck his foot in it. He’s attracting attention Google does not need right now. The predictable outcome occurred.
It will take savage violence to get him out of there
Here is my suggestion:
Invent by congressional fiat a new office – President Emeritus. It can be part of Cheney’s fourth branch of government.
Build a beautiful house. Made of gold, or at least gold-ish. It will be a very very good house, the best house. That is where President Emeritus gets to live.
The responsibilities of President Emeritus will be to hold rallies, fleece people who are staying in hotel properties owned by the feds, and maintain constant communication with the American public via social media and reality TV.
And play golf.
Plus, he gets a cool crown. And an unlimited lifetime supply of hair care product.
Offer Trump an offer he can’t refuse: President Emeritus, or a complete and thorough financial audit.
Then move on.
Pence will promote exactly zero policies that I’d be happy with, but at least somebody, somewhere, would get something done, some of the time.
There’s always 2018, and then 2020.
I mean if puberty were delayed for girls a few years.
At puberty girls move from self-confidence to self-consciousness. At this point they start to censor themselves and become increasingly silent in class. They deny their intelligence.
Of course you meant that. The second paragraph reports something so well-known that it is barely worth stating. The explanation for this is the point. Girls report that they censor themselves because boys don’t like smart women.
I mean if puberty were delayed for girls a few years.
At puberty girls move from self-confidence to self-consciousness. At this point they start to censor themselves and become increasingly silent in class. They deny their intelligence.
Of course you meant that. The second paragraph reports something so well-known that it is barely worth stating. The explanation for this is the point. Girls report that they censor themselves because boys don’t like smart women.
I have this recurring thought that one day Trump will be at a presser pull off his hair and some facial prosthetics to reveal he’s Andy Kaufman
I have this recurring thought that one day Trump will be at a presser pull off his hair and some facial prosthetics to reveal he’s Andy Kaufman
The second paragraph reports something so well-known that it is barely worth stating. The explanation for this is the point.
GftNC, I know you live in the UK and my not know much about American baseball, but there is a phenomenon whereby the average daily temperature is higher for those days of the year when professional baseball is being played than for those days when it is not.
Draw from that whatever conclusion you like, but I think it’s pretty obvious that the playing of professional baseball makes the United States warmer.
The second paragraph reports something so well-known that it is barely worth stating. The explanation for this is the point.
GftNC, I know you live in the UK and my not know much about American baseball, but there is a phenomenon whereby the average daily temperature is higher for those days of the year when professional baseball is being played than for those days when it is not.
Draw from that whatever conclusion you like, but I think it’s pretty obvious that the playing of professional baseball makes the United States warmer.
I think it’s pretty obvious that the playing of professional baseball makes the United States warmer.
No enough pirates. That’s the reason for it all.
I think it’s pretty obvious that the playing of professional baseball makes the United States warmer.
No enough pirates. That’s the reason for it all.
No enough pirates. That’s the reason for it all.
Not even in Pittsburgh? That would suggest that there will never be enough….
No enough pirates. That’s the reason for it all.
Not even in Pittsburgh? That would suggest that there will never be enough….
russell, bte that was a perfectly accurate description pf my insurance situation. FWIW, several of us combined those consulting gigs into one company so we would qualify for group insurance coverage. So better for now.
russell, bte that was a perfectly accurate description pf my insurance situation. FWIW, several of us combined those consulting gigs into one company so we would qualify for group insurance coverage. So better for now.
So better for now.
Cool. Glad you found a way to make it work, or at least work better.
Best of luck with the consulting company!
So better for now.
Cool. Glad you found a way to make it work, or at least work better.
Best of luck with the consulting company!
Morning, just dropping back in to apologize to Marty about doubting his life experience and I’m glad your insurance situation is better.
Morning, just dropping back in to apologize to Marty about doubting his life experience and I’m glad your insurance situation is better.
lj, all good
lj, all good
Girl from the North Country — in case you see this…I finally got Ghost Riders from inter-library loan. Looking forward to it!
Girl from the North Country — in case you see this…I finally got Ghost Riders from inter-library loan. Looking forward to it!
And play golf.
How do I apply? Sign me up. Keep the gold.
Best Regards,
And play golf.
How do I apply? Sign me up. Keep the gold.
Best Regards,
Scott Pruitt is a cold-blooded murderer.
He has the full approval and blessing of the American Christian God, the androgynous Mammon, sporting the body of Dagny Taggart, the head of Alex Keaton, the trigger finger of Yosemite Sam, and the askew hairpiece of rumpelstildead.
Pruitt, like nearly all of rump’s chosen, is killing as we speak.
Pence gazes down at Pruitt with the serene condescension of the fallen angel Lucifer, jacking off, without touching himself, at the sight of the lucre filling the pigfucking Christian offering plates and delighting at the misery and horror of the sacrificial lambs.
Vengeance will be mine.
I approached Mordor today, inching along the barricades beginning two blocks from Rump Rower. The issuer of encyclicals stipulating that all creatures entering Sauron’s Orc-infested environs must speak the language of Sauron sat silently somewhere high above taking a dump into a fool’s gold chalice, the reliquary turds later examined for worms and whisked away for curation in the recently citizens United-financed wing of the rumpsonian museum in Washington D.C. devoted to America’s new manifest destiny social justice futurerama entitled “Eat Shit and Like It” .
The uniformed constabulary officer blocking my way was Asian and explained in barely understandable English that I was forbidden from proceeding on my mission.
I took some comfort in the fact that the fat tub of arrogant lard tucking into a taco bowl far overhead would deport that cop before he got around to killing me.
Scott Pruitt is a cold-blooded murderer.
He has the full approval and blessing of the American Christian God, the androgynous Mammon, sporting the body of Dagny Taggart, the head of Alex Keaton, the trigger finger of Yosemite Sam, and the askew hairpiece of rumpelstildead.
Pruitt, like nearly all of rump’s chosen, is killing as we speak.
Pence gazes down at Pruitt with the serene condescension of the fallen angel Lucifer, jacking off, without touching himself, at the sight of the lucre filling the pigfucking Christian offering plates and delighting at the misery and horror of the sacrificial lambs.
Vengeance will be mine.
I approached Mordor today, inching along the barricades beginning two blocks from Rump Rower. The issuer of encyclicals stipulating that all creatures entering Sauron’s Orc-infested environs must speak the language of Sauron sat silently somewhere high above taking a dump into a fool’s gold chalice, the reliquary turds later examined for worms and whisked away for curation in the recently citizens United-financed wing of the rumpsonian museum in Washington D.C. devoted to America’s new manifest destiny social justice futurerama entitled “Eat Shit and Like It” .
The uniformed constabulary officer blocking my way was Asian and explained in barely understandable English that I was forbidden from proceeding on my mission.
I took some comfort in the fact that the fat tub of arrogant lard tucking into a taco bowl far overhead would deport that cop before he got around to killing me.
Kenyan witch doctor Barack Obama tweeted so sweetly recently that he toted up the most likes of any tweeter since Neil Armstrong’s one small step for mankind.
Rump and his racist minions, who number in the tens of millions, quickly measured their dicks, came up short, and abolished Twitter in a volcanic rage.
Kenyan witch doctor Barack Obama tweeted so sweetly recently that he toted up the most likes of any tweeter since Neil Armstrong’s one small step for mankind.
Rump and his racist minions, who number in the tens of millions, quickly measured their dicks, came up short, and abolished Twitter in a volcanic rage.
Great, JanieM, I’ll look forward to hearing how you liked it. Meanwhile, I’ve been re-reading the Goblin Emperor for the first time – it’s good in difficult times!
Great, JanieM, I’ll look forward to hearing how you liked it. Meanwhile, I’ve been re-reading the Goblin Emperor for the first time – it’s good in difficult times!
GFTNC
I know you are not a baseball fan, but I wanted to pass along to you that I just learned the Chicago Cubs have a player named John Jay on their roster, and in the tradition of the baseball nick-naming tradition he is known as Chief Justice John Jay by his teammates and opponents.
Not hated by some quite as much as his namesake, but a pesky hitter who drives the other teams to distraction.
GFTNC
I know you are not a baseball fan, but I wanted to pass along to you that I just learned the Chicago Cubs have a player named John Jay on their roster, and in the tradition of the baseball nick-naming tradition he is known as Chief Justice John Jay by his teammates and opponents.
Not hated by some quite as much as his namesake, but a pesky hitter who drives the other teams to distraction.
Thanks Count. I was entertained by stories of your trip – I wish I was in NYC, but not in August!
Thanks Count. I was entertained by stories of your trip – I wish I was in NYC, but not in August!
If you want to upchuck into your Cheerios this morning, pop over to Kevin Drum’s place and read the post entitled “Steve Bannon: Fighting Racism Is For Losers”
Some may have a point that social justice warriors are over the top, but if they cut the head(s) off of the Republican Party, and toss it on the same bonfire as Robert E. Lee’s statue, than they will have served a purpose.
The Republican Party has permitted rank vermin racism and white nationalism to rise to the top of its leadership and inhabit the White House, and governmental institutions. Until I get a fucking explanation how that was permitted to happen, I’m not to waste my breath apologizing for snowflakes who form mobs.
These filth idolize the Civil War traitors.
They aren’t going away unless it’s feet first with a toe tag to identify their disfigured remains.
Back on the road today. Have a good one.
If you want to upchuck into your Cheerios this morning, pop over to Kevin Drum’s place and read the post entitled “Steve Bannon: Fighting Racism Is For Losers”
Some may have a point that social justice warriors are over the top, but if they cut the head(s) off of the Republican Party, and toss it on the same bonfire as Robert E. Lee’s statue, than they will have served a purpose.
The Republican Party has permitted rank vermin racism and white nationalism to rise to the top of its leadership and inhabit the White House, and governmental institutions. Until I get a fucking explanation how that was permitted to happen, I’m not to waste my breath apologizing for snowflakes who form mobs.
These filth idolize the Civil War traitors.
They aren’t going away unless it’s feet first with a toe tag to identify their disfigured remains.
Back on the road today. Have a good one.
(via BJ)
Hillary Clinton, August 2016:
so many emails.
(via BJ)
Hillary Clinton, August 2016:
so many emails.
When I realized that healthcare wasn’t going to pass I just looked at the bright side, Hillary Clinton could be President.
When I realized that healthcare wasn’t going to pass I just looked at the bright side, Hillary Clinton could be President.
what a hell on earth that would have been
what a hell on earth that would have been
without the pussy-grabbing, daughter-luster, idiot-in-chief, “conservatives” would still have to pretend to care about all the things they used to pretend to care about.
i’m sure that’s very hard on their souls.
without the pussy-grabbing, daughter-luster, idiot-in-chief, “conservatives” would still have to pretend to care about all the things they used to pretend to care about.
i’m sure that’s very hard on their souls.
Well, these days liberals can look on the (relatively!) bright side. There are all kinds of things that they would utterly hate, which would likely be being passed with anyone but Trump in the White House.**
It might be a price they would be glad to pay, of course. But then again, it might not. At minimum, a hard choice for them.
** Not to mention that Trump may be tarnishing the Republican (and, with much less justification, the conservative) brand for some time to come.
Well, these days liberals can look on the (relatively!) bright side. There are all kinds of things that they would utterly hate, which would likely be being passed with anyone but Trump in the White House.**
It might be a price they would be glad to pay, of course. But then again, it might not. At minimum, a hard choice for them.
** Not to mention that Trump may be tarnishing the Republican (and, with much less justification, the conservative) brand for some time to come.
I suspect that many people, I know it’s true for me, think Democrats could actually gain something from all this if they would quit bringing up Hillary.
Every time I see “so many emails” I shrug and think yeah, that was a crappy choice too.
She’s the second or third most disliked politician in America, do you really want to keep bringing her up?
It’s not like him being him is going to suddenly make her look good.
I suspect that many people, I know it’s true for me, think Democrats could actually gain something from all this if they would quit bringing up Hillary.
Every time I see “so many emails” I shrug and think yeah, that was a crappy choice too.
She’s the second or third most disliked politician in America, do you really want to keep bringing her up?
It’s not like him being him is going to suddenly make her look good.
why? because 90% of the case against her was pure horseshit.
and now, because people treated the election like a goddamned game, we have a dangerous lunatic in the WH. and it remains the fault of everyone who spread or bought that horseshit.
why? because 90% of the case against her was pure horseshit.
and now, because people treated the election like a goddamned game, we have a dangerous lunatic in the WH. and it remains the fault of everyone who spread or bought that horseshit.
Have some cheese……
Have some cheese……
Cleek, but isn’t the point to do well in the future? However unfair, etc. last year was, it’s done. Seems more constructive to look forward instead.
Cleek, but isn’t the point to do well in the future? However unfair, etc. last year was, it’s done. Seems more constructive to look forward instead.
Based on my own personal anecdotal survey of people I know, personally, who really really really dislike Hilary Clinton, I have formed the opinion that hatred of Clinton is strongly correlated with childhood experiences with an overly strict nanny or grade school teacher.
She seems, to these people, like a scold. It triggers deep unresolved youthful traumas.
I suggest counseling.
Based on my own personal anecdotal survey of people I know, personally, who really really really dislike Hilary Clinton, I have formed the opinion that hatred of Clinton is strongly correlated with childhood experiences with an overly strict nanny or grade school teacher.
She seems, to these people, like a scold. It triggers deep unresolved youthful traumas.
I suggest counseling.
It’s not like him being him is going to suddenly make her look good.
The guy who’s coming out of all of this smelling like a rose is Lindsey Graham.
Hey, look! A (R) who isn’t a racist, god-bothering theocrat, or completely in the pocket of the Koch brothers!
It’s like reaching into a pile of sh*t and finding a shiny new nickel.
When the pickings are slim, you take what you can get.
It’s not like him being him is going to suddenly make her look good.
The guy who’s coming out of all of this smelling like a rose is Lindsey Graham.
Hey, look! A (R) who isn’t a racist, god-bothering theocrat, or completely in the pocket of the Koch brothers!
It’s like reaching into a pile of sh*t and finding a shiny new nickel.
When the pickings are slim, you take what you can get.
Cleek, but isn’t the point to do well in the future?
one needs to know what one did wrong in order to do better, yes?
Cleek, but isn’t the point to do well in the future?
one needs to know what one did wrong in order to do better, yes?
Russell, that may be true for those who “really really really dislike” her. But I can testify that it is entirely possible to dislike her on a less fervent level without having that kind of background, or anything like it.
Of course, I considered voting for her to be a complete no-brainer, considering the alternative. But I would far rather have seen a different Democrat on offer; and, obviously, a different Republican as well. But we had the choice we had.
Russell, that may be true for those who “really really really dislike” her. But I can testify that it is entirely possible to dislike her on a less fervent level without having that kind of background, or anything like it.
Of course, I considered voting for her to be a complete no-brainer, considering the alternative. But I would far rather have seen a different Democrat on offer; and, obviously, a different Republican as well. But we had the choice we had.
I should perhaps clarify that that’s “dislike as a person” (admittedly based only on what was visible in public situations). Entirely separate from my opinions on her stances on the issues.
And voting for her was a no-brainer based both on her and Trump as human beings and on their positions on the issues. No matter how much I disagreed with Clinton on some things.
I should perhaps clarify that that’s “dislike as a person” (admittedly based only on what was visible in public situations). Entirely separate from my opinions on her stances on the issues.
And voting for her was a no-brainer based both on her and Trump as human beings and on their positions on the issues. No matter how much I disagreed with Clinton on some things.
one needs to know what one did wrong in order to do better, yes?
Sure. But one can recognize past mistakes without harping on them. Just say “OK, don’t do that next time” and move on; not bring it up repeatedly.
one needs to know what one did wrong in order to do better, yes?
Sure. But one can recognize past mistakes without harping on them. Just say “OK, don’t do that next time” and move on; not bring it up repeatedly.
It was a strange moment of triumph against racism: The gun-slinging white supremacist Craig Cobb, dressed up for daytime TV in a dark suit and red tie, hearing that his DNA testing revealed his ancestry to be only “86% European, and … 14% Sub-Saharan African.”
White nationalists are flocking to genetic ancestry tests — but many don’t like their results
It was a strange moment of triumph against racism: The gun-slinging white supremacist Craig Cobb, dressed up for daytime TV in a dark suit and red tie, hearing that his DNA testing revealed his ancestry to be only “86% European, and … 14% Sub-Saharan African.”
White nationalists are flocking to genetic ancestry tests — but many don’t like their results
Just say “OK, don’t do that next time” and move on; not bring it up repeatedly.
as you wish
Just say “OK, don’t do that next time” and move on; not bring it up repeatedly.
as you wish
it is entirely possible to dislike her on a less fervent level
I’m sure that’s so. She’s not my favoritest person ever, either. Neither is hubby Bill.
But I’ve been watching this show for twenty five years now.
People don’t just hate the Clintons, they think they are Mr and Mrs Antichrist. Kang and Kodos. World-historically evil.
I find that delusional. Not as a matter of blog-drive-by hyperbole, but as a matter of plain fact.
Barking mad. Clinical. Out of their freaking gourds.
Pedophile ring in the back room of a pizza joint. Right? We’re not talking policy differences here.
It’s insane. Delusionally, obsessively insane.
it is entirely possible to dislike her on a less fervent level
I’m sure that’s so. She’s not my favoritest person ever, either. Neither is hubby Bill.
But I’ve been watching this show for twenty five years now.
People don’t just hate the Clintons, they think they are Mr and Mrs Antichrist. Kang and Kodos. World-historically evil.
I find that delusional. Not as a matter of blog-drive-by hyperbole, but as a matter of plain fact.
Barking mad. Clinical. Out of their freaking gourds.
Pedophile ring in the back room of a pizza joint. Right? We’re not talking policy differences here.
It’s insane. Delusionally, obsessively insane.
“It was a strange moment of triumph against racism: The gun-slinging white supremacist Craig Cobb, dressed up for daytime TV in a dark suit and red tie, hearing that his DNA testing revealed his ancestry to be only “86% European, and … 14% Sub-Saharan African.”
So he shot his leg off just below the knee, figuring that was the 14% and his obligation to the gun control discussion.
“It was a strange moment of triumph against racism: The gun-slinging white supremacist Craig Cobb, dressed up for daytime TV in a dark suit and red tie, hearing that his DNA testing revealed his ancestry to be only “86% European, and … 14% Sub-Saharan African.”
So he shot his leg off just below the knee, figuring that was the 14% and his obligation to the gun control discussion.
Charles, since many of these are the same people who cheerfully reject climate change, evolution, etc., can it be surprising that their reaction to these unhappy (from their point of view) results is to abruptly start questioning the validity of genetic testing? Amusing, when they had been intending to use the previously-accepted-as-valid tests to prove their “purity”. But not surprising.
I admit, I was startled by something in my own results (my siblings gave me a test for my birthday last year). But mostly, for me, it was a matter of speculating which of my grandparents’ ancestry was not what I had thought. Then again, I’m not the stuff that white supremacists are made of. 😉
Charles, since many of these are the same people who cheerfully reject climate change, evolution, etc., can it be surprising that their reaction to these unhappy (from their point of view) results is to abruptly start questioning the validity of genetic testing? Amusing, when they had been intending to use the previously-accepted-as-valid tests to prove their “purity”. But not surprising.
I admit, I was startled by something in my own results (my siblings gave me a test for my birthday last year). But mostly, for me, it was a matter of speculating which of my grandparents’ ancestry was not what I had thought. Then again, I’m not the stuff that white supremacists are made of. 😉
As someone who has been accused of being in love with Hillary Clinton, I would like to state that I was, at first, not excited to know that she was the 2016 front-runner for the nomination. The more I actually listened to her though, the happier about it I was. I actually grew quite fond of her based on the fact that she was so serious about policy and had a life-long commitment to learning about how to make things better.
I didn’t ever expect perfection, maybe because I haven’t seen it yet, even in my closest friends. Obama was quite close to perfect (as a President), but he is a once in a lifetime find.
We’re not going to repeat the 2016 election, so the hatred of Hillary itself, while distasteful to me, is irrelevant. People might want to do a bit of soul searching though to figure out what about her they hated so much, and whether they’re going to be similarly tempted to dismiss a smart, competent candidate, and allow the election of a dangerous, evil clown next time around.
(Of course they will, if TAX CUT!)
As someone who has been accused of being in love with Hillary Clinton, I would like to state that I was, at first, not excited to know that she was the 2016 front-runner for the nomination. The more I actually listened to her though, the happier about it I was. I actually grew quite fond of her based on the fact that she was so serious about policy and had a life-long commitment to learning about how to make things better.
I didn’t ever expect perfection, maybe because I haven’t seen it yet, even in my closest friends. Obama was quite close to perfect (as a President), but he is a once in a lifetime find.
We’re not going to repeat the 2016 election, so the hatred of Hillary itself, while distasteful to me, is irrelevant. People might want to do a bit of soul searching though to figure out what about her they hated so much, and whether they’re going to be similarly tempted to dismiss a smart, competent candidate, and allow the election of a dangerous, evil clown next time around.
(Of course they will, if TAX CUT!)
The choice to vote for Clinton was easy for me because I have a comfortable middle class life, so “change” was not a big motivator for me, and I live in a swing state, so a protest vote seemed irresponsible given the stakes.
I’m personally aware of deranged anti-Clinton voters, but those folks are not likely to vote Dem anyway. HRC completely missed the populist wave. We can talk about her negatives, but she ran against someone with huge negatives. The difference being she was (rightfully) seen as establishment at a time when that was hugely unpopular in key swing states.
The choice to vote for Clinton was easy for me because I have a comfortable middle class life, so “change” was not a big motivator for me, and I live in a swing state, so a protest vote seemed irresponsible given the stakes.
I’m personally aware of deranged anti-Clinton voters, but those folks are not likely to vote Dem anyway. HRC completely missed the populist wave. We can talk about her negatives, but she ran against someone with huge negatives. The difference being she was (rightfully) seen as establishment at a time when that was hugely unpopular in key swing states.
People might want to do a bit of soul searching though to figure out what about her they hated so much
I have nothing to add to this.
People might want to do a bit of soul searching though to figure out what about her they hated so much
I have nothing to add to this.
Not tax cut, supreme court justice. Hundreds of federal lifetime judge ships, and thousands of executive regulations. Tax cuts are a pipe dream. Both sides want to spend more just on different things.
But hope springs eternal.
Not tax cut, supreme court justice. Hundreds of federal lifetime judge ships, and thousands of executive regulations. Tax cuts are a pipe dream. Both sides want to spend more just on different things.
But hope springs eternal.
I read that yesterday, CharlesWT. What got me thinking was how white nationalists might view ancestry from particular regions in Europe and other places outside of Europe that are generally still considered “white” (or at least Caucasian, if one sees a difference).
It’s pretty obvious that they aren’t happy with sub-Saharan African DNA. One would guess they aren’t happy with East Asian or Pacific Islander DNA. I’m kind of up in the air on Native American, only because so many people seem to think just a bit of that (but not too much!) makes them somehow more truly “American.”
Outside of Europe, but still arguably “white,” they probably aren’t too keen on Middle Eastern, North African, or South Asian. Caucasus, only because it’s where the word “Caucasian” comes from, they might be okay with, or at least less bothered by.
Within Europe, Jewish is probably the worst for them. What about Southern and Eastern European? Are they acceptable?
Western European, British (broadly speaking, nowadays including Irish), and Scandinavian are probably what they’re really hoping for. But very, very few people aren’t going to get some results outside of those, regardless of where in Europe their more recent (say, last 500 yrs or so) ancestors came from.
Purity is a myth. Maybe they’ll just say you have to be white enough, so long as you’re fiercely proud of it.
I read that yesterday, CharlesWT. What got me thinking was how white nationalists might view ancestry from particular regions in Europe and other places outside of Europe that are generally still considered “white” (or at least Caucasian, if one sees a difference).
It’s pretty obvious that they aren’t happy with sub-Saharan African DNA. One would guess they aren’t happy with East Asian or Pacific Islander DNA. I’m kind of up in the air on Native American, only because so many people seem to think just a bit of that (but not too much!) makes them somehow more truly “American.”
Outside of Europe, but still arguably “white,” they probably aren’t too keen on Middle Eastern, North African, or South Asian. Caucasus, only because it’s where the word “Caucasian” comes from, they might be okay with, or at least less bothered by.
Within Europe, Jewish is probably the worst for them. What about Southern and Eastern European? Are they acceptable?
Western European, British (broadly speaking, nowadays including Irish), and Scandinavian are probably what they’re really hoping for. But very, very few people aren’t going to get some results outside of those, regardless of where in Europe their more recent (say, last 500 yrs or so) ancestors came from.
Purity is a myth. Maybe they’ll just say you have to be white enough, so long as you’re fiercely proud of it.
…I would like to state that I was, at first, not excited to know that she was the 2016 front-runner for the nomination. The more I actually listened to her though, the happier about it I was. I actually grew quite fond of her based on the fact that she was so serious about policy and had a life-long commitment to learning about how to make things better.
That’s pretty much my story, too.
…I would like to state that I was, at first, not excited to know that she was the 2016 front-runner for the nomination. The more I actually listened to her though, the happier about it I was. I actually grew quite fond of her based on the fact that she was so serious about policy and had a life-long commitment to learning about how to make things better.
That’s pretty much my story, too.
Asked during his news conference in Trump Tower whether he would put white supremacists and neo-Nazis on the same “moral plane” as their liberal and leftist resisters, a frustrated Mr. Trump replied, “I’m not putting anybody on a moral plane.”
Do you think he thought they meant an airplane? Because that’s the only way this reply makes any sense….
Asked during his news conference in Trump Tower whether he would put white supremacists and neo-Nazis on the same “moral plane” as their liberal and leftist resisters, a frustrated Mr. Trump replied, “I’m not putting anybody on a moral plane.”
Do you think he thought they meant an airplane? Because that’s the only way this reply makes any sense….
For 50 years now, the Democrats have seemingly failed to notice that Democratic candidates from the NE urban corridor fail to generate any real enthusiasm in much of the rest of the country. Perhaps longer: it’s at least arguable that Kennedy’s surprise choice of Johnson for VP, who had been favored by southern states at the national convention, won the 1960 election. The West seems to be becoming reliably (D)*, but is still not enthusiastic about “easterners”.
* In November, the Census Bureau’s western region went for Clinton in the EC 98-30. That’s more Clinton EC votes than from any of the other three regions (Northeast, Midwest, South). The region also flipped control of four state legislative chambers from (R) to (D).
For 50 years now, the Democrats have seemingly failed to notice that Democratic candidates from the NE urban corridor fail to generate any real enthusiasm in much of the rest of the country. Perhaps longer: it’s at least arguable that Kennedy’s surprise choice of Johnson for VP, who had been favored by southern states at the national convention, won the 1960 election. The West seems to be becoming reliably (D)*, but is still not enthusiastic about “easterners”.
* In November, the Census Bureau’s western region went for Clinton in the EC 98-30. That’s more Clinton EC votes than from any of the other three regions (Northeast, Midwest, South). The region also flipped control of four state legislative chambers from (R) to (D).
The West seems to be becoming reliably (D)*, but is still not enthusiastic about “easterners”.
Yeah, everybody hates us, we’re a bunch of snotty know-it-alls.
Run some of your guys.
The West seems to be becoming reliably (D)*, but is still not enthusiastic about “easterners”.
Yeah, everybody hates us, we’re a bunch of snotty know-it-alls.
Run some of your guys.
sapient: People might want to do a bit of soul searching though to figure out what about her they hated so much, and whether they’re going to be similarly tempted to dismiss a smart, competent candidate, and allow the election of a dangerous, evil clown next time around.
(Of course they will, if TAX CUT!)
I think Marty’s right. For the vast majority of the actual voters, it really isn’t about tax cuts. At all. For the big donors, and a few ideologues, tax cuts matter. But the folks doing the voting aren’t going to see any change (or, if they do, not for the better).
Which is why those who do care about tax cuts put so much effort into talking about other things. Things that, frankly, they don’t care about. Or even dislike, sometimes rather strongly . . . just not as much as they like tax cuts.
sapient: People might want to do a bit of soul searching though to figure out what about her they hated so much, and whether they’re going to be similarly tempted to dismiss a smart, competent candidate, and allow the election of a dangerous, evil clown next time around.
(Of course they will, if TAX CUT!)
I think Marty’s right. For the vast majority of the actual voters, it really isn’t about tax cuts. At all. For the big donors, and a few ideologues, tax cuts matter. But the folks doing the voting aren’t going to see any change (or, if they do, not for the better).
Which is why those who do care about tax cuts put so much effort into talking about other things. Things that, frankly, they don’t care about. Or even dislike, sometimes rather strongly . . . just not as much as they like tax cuts.
Jerry Brown with a few “>cardiac stem cell injections for president!
Jerry Brown with a few “>cardiac stem cell injections for president!
2nd link:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/14/health/cardiac-stem-cells-make-rats-younger-study/
2nd link:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/14/health/cardiac-stem-cells-make-rats-younger-study/
Cardiac stem cells make rats younger
A boom for politicians then…
Millennials: “Damn! We’ll never be rid of those baby boomers!”
Cardiac stem cells make rats younger
A boom for politicians then…
Millennials: “Damn! We’ll never be rid of those baby boomers!”
And since it’s been tested in rats, and we’re talking politicians, no need for additional trials using humans…. 😉
And since it’s been tested in rats, and we’re talking politicians, no need for additional trials using humans…. 😉
Run some of your guys.
With tongue only partly in cheek, and intending no offense to anyone, the best and brightest in the West appear to be losing interest.
On a bet a few months ago, after four days of typical Trump-related excitement, I bet a friend that of seven leading newspapers from the big metro areas in the West, no more than two would lead with a Trump-related story on Friday morning. Turned out to be only one, and even that one was something older but related to western issues.
Dem caucus rules in Congress require holding a seat for a very long time in order to get any real authority. My six-term (D) Representative is not running again; local rumors are that he’s simply tired of not living in Colorado and doing the semi-commute for such a small role. (I’ve done the semi-commute; it’s miserable even if you get to fly first class.) The five-term (D) Representative from a district over is running for governor in 2018 instead. IIRC, blacks are not the largest minority in any western state and there seems little interest in fighting the Civil War yet again.
I’m willing to take a bet: Kamala Harris will use her Senate seat to set up a run for Governor of California, but not for President.
Run some of your guys.
With tongue only partly in cheek, and intending no offense to anyone, the best and brightest in the West appear to be losing interest.
On a bet a few months ago, after four days of typical Trump-related excitement, I bet a friend that of seven leading newspapers from the big metro areas in the West, no more than two would lead with a Trump-related story on Friday morning. Turned out to be only one, and even that one was something older but related to western issues.
Dem caucus rules in Congress require holding a seat for a very long time in order to get any real authority. My six-term (D) Representative is not running again; local rumors are that he’s simply tired of not living in Colorado and doing the semi-commute for such a small role. (I’ve done the semi-commute; it’s miserable even if you get to fly first class.) The five-term (D) Representative from a district over is running for governor in 2018 instead. IIRC, blacks are not the largest minority in any western state and there seems little interest in fighting the Civil War yet again.
I’m willing to take a bet: Kamala Harris will use her Senate seat to set up a run for Governor of California, but not for President.
the best and brightest in the West appear to be losing interest.
That’s a damned shame.
The only thing I’d say in addition is, if your guys don’t want to do the work to make it better, please don’t complain about the folks that do.
the best and brightest in the West appear to be losing interest.
That’s a damned shame.
The only thing I’d say in addition is, if your guys don’t want to do the work to make it better, please don’t complain about the folks that do.
I’m willing to take a bet: Kamala Harris will use her Senate seat to set up a run for Governor of California, but not for President.
I’d prefer to bet that she will run for Governor on the way to running for President. While experience in the Senate helps in knowing how to get things thru Congress, Governor is a lot stronger platform to run for President from.
I’m willing to take a bet: Kamala Harris will use her Senate seat to set up a run for Governor of California, but not for President.
I’d prefer to bet that she will run for Governor on the way to running for President. While experience in the Senate helps in knowing how to get things thru Congress, Governor is a lot stronger platform to run for President from.
The only thing I’d say in addition is, if your guys don’t want to do the work to make it better, please don’t complain about the folks that do.
I’m only complaining that the definition of “better” is biased in ways that it need not be. Of course, I’m the guy whose thesis is that by about Jan 1, 2060, what we think won’t be your problem any more :^)
The only thing I’d say in addition is, if your guys don’t want to do the work to make it better, please don’t complain about the folks that do.
I’m only complaining that the definition of “better” is biased in ways that it need not be. Of course, I’m the guy whose thesis is that by about Jan 1, 2060, what we think won’t be your problem any more :^)
Selecting Hillary Clinton as a candidate was a terrible mistake by the Democrats. That ought to be unarguable – she LOST to Donald Trump.
The problem with her as a candidate was that she’s just not likeable enough on TV. Nor is Trump of course, but he was running a different sort of campaign. The comparison is with Obama, Bush 2, or Reagan. If you’re not willing to run as a demagogue, you have to have a winning smile.
Even if elected, she would have been an ineffectual president, because she would have been able to get nothing through the legislature, howsoever well thought out. She would have stopped the Republicans stealing the Supreme Court, but that’s all. Unlike Obama, she wouldn’t have had the option of making an effective appeal directly to the electorate. So the Democrats would have lost badly in 2018 and 2020.
The Democrats ought to be working out what went right when they selected Obama, and what went wrong when they selected Hillary. The obvious difference is that with Hillary, the party’s thumb on the scales proved decisive, and may have deterred better candidates from even entering the race.
The Democrats need to reform the rules to give candidates a fair chance even if they don’t have great name recognition or insider connexions. (So do the Republicans.) They’ve had no success running brothers, sons and spouses of party leaders. It’s time to tilt the primary process the other way.
Selecting Hillary Clinton as a candidate was a terrible mistake by the Democrats. That ought to be unarguable – she LOST to Donald Trump.
The problem with her as a candidate was that she’s just not likeable enough on TV. Nor is Trump of course, but he was running a different sort of campaign. The comparison is with Obama, Bush 2, or Reagan. If you’re not willing to run as a demagogue, you have to have a winning smile.
Even if elected, she would have been an ineffectual president, because she would have been able to get nothing through the legislature, howsoever well thought out. She would have stopped the Republicans stealing the Supreme Court, but that’s all. Unlike Obama, she wouldn’t have had the option of making an effective appeal directly to the electorate. So the Democrats would have lost badly in 2018 and 2020.
The Democrats ought to be working out what went right when they selected Obama, and what went wrong when they selected Hillary. The obvious difference is that with Hillary, the party’s thumb on the scales proved decisive, and may have deterred better candidates from even entering the race.
The Democrats need to reform the rules to give candidates a fair chance even if they don’t have great name recognition or insider connexions. (So do the Republicans.) They’ve had no success running brothers, sons and spouses of party leaders. It’s time to tilt the primary process the other way.
I’m only complaining that the definition of “better” is biased in ways that it need not be
I hear you. I’m not actually that invested in my own personal definition of “better”, I would be highly interested in what folks in other parts of the country think.
I do, or would, find it regrettable if folks from other parts of the country who could have something constructive to offer would simply decide to opt out, for whatever reason. I can imagine about 100 reasons, or maybe a million, but it still seems regrettable to me.
I agree that one way we might end up sorting out our regional and cultural differences (maybe those are the same thing?) would be to carve the country up into separate, more or less sovereign regions. Perhaps actual independent countries.
It would make some things a hell of a lot easier, but would also be kind of a shame.
It cost a lot to create this place, I’d be sorry to see it go. Everything does, sooner or later, but still.
I’m only complaining that the definition of “better” is biased in ways that it need not be
I hear you. I’m not actually that invested in my own personal definition of “better”, I would be highly interested in what folks in other parts of the country think.
I do, or would, find it regrettable if folks from other parts of the country who could have something constructive to offer would simply decide to opt out, for whatever reason. I can imagine about 100 reasons, or maybe a million, but it still seems regrettable to me.
I agree that one way we might end up sorting out our regional and cultural differences (maybe those are the same thing?) would be to carve the country up into separate, more or less sovereign regions. Perhaps actual independent countries.
It would make some things a hell of a lot easier, but would also be kind of a shame.
It cost a lot to create this place, I’d be sorry to see it go. Everything does, sooner or later, but still.
Selecting Hillary Clinton as a candidate was a terrible mistake by the Democrats.
I sort of hear what you’re saying, but I’m hard pressed to say who would have run a better campaign, or been a better candidate, or done better against Trump.
Who, instead of Clinton? Bernie? Uncle Joe?
Allow also me to note in passing, lest we forget, that ten million more people voted against Trump than for him.
In a reasonable nation, Clinton would have been a totally uncontroversial candidate. It’s the reasonable nation part that is the problem IMO.
People were pissed off, so they decided to burn the place down. Mission accomplished. You can blame it on Clinton’s negatives if you like, I’d say there were plenty of places to place blame.
Start with the folks who voted for Trump.
Selecting Hillary Clinton as a candidate was a terrible mistake by the Democrats.
I sort of hear what you’re saying, but I’m hard pressed to say who would have run a better campaign, or been a better candidate, or done better against Trump.
Who, instead of Clinton? Bernie? Uncle Joe?
Allow also me to note in passing, lest we forget, that ten million more people voted against Trump than for him.
In a reasonable nation, Clinton would have been a totally uncontroversial candidate. It’s the reasonable nation part that is the problem IMO.
People were pissed off, so they decided to burn the place down. Mission accomplished. You can blame it on Clinton’s negatives if you like, I’d say there were plenty of places to place blame.
Start with the folks who voted for Trump.
Clinton was the victim of decades of defamation by the righwing adn she started out with a disa[proval rating of nearly fifty percent That disapproval rating was not fair to her; it was the result of a successsful smear campaign, however it it existed and because of it I did not think she should be our candidate. I think Bernie would have won.
But what diferenec does it make? The only less he is that we need to find more effective ways to counger Republican hatemongering.
Clinton was the victim of decades of defamation by the righwing adn she started out with a disa[proval rating of nearly fifty percent That disapproval rating was not fair to her; it was the result of a successsful smear campaign, however it it existed and because of it I did not think she should be our candidate. I think Bernie would have won.
But what diferenec does it make? The only less he is that we need to find more effective ways to counger Republican hatemongering.
My six-term (D) Representative is not running again; local rumors are that he’s simply tired of not living in Colorado and doing the semi-commute for such a small role. (I’ve done the semi-commute; it’s miserable even if you get to fly first class.) The five-term (D) Representative from a district over is running for governor in 2018 instead.
Not sure what the situation is there – are the districts solidly D? If not, I wish I could summon the tears. At this moment in history (assuming they think they can continue to carry the district), I’m appalled. If they have a reasonable successor, good for them.
I think Bernie would have won.
I almost always agree with you wonkie, but not on this. I think he wouldn’t have won (and he didn’t deserve to win the primary). People like Russ Feingold didn’t win. The problem was in a few swing states (like WI, where Feingold lost) where people like NV were careless with their vote, thinking that it was so emo to play games, or that purism was the way to go.
I would have voted for Bernie, because I’m a good do bee, and I fall in line. Lots of people saw Bernie’s program theories as a fraud (and I did too, but would have voted for him anyway because he might have headed things into a decent place as opposed to Trump). Tad Devine and Jeff Weaver are both very questionable characters. Creepy as hell. Bernie’s wife has baggage galore (and not just recently). Hillary Clinton didn’t run a negative campaign against Bernie, because she didn’t want to alienate his base (maybe a bad move). There is likely plenty there. Start with his failure to release his tax returns. Sound familiar? Should be raising alarm bells everywhere.
That all said, Bernie’s on the right side of the fence, and I’ll definitely do what I do if I have to do it. Oh, and I liked Bernie a lot for quite awhile.
My six-term (D) Representative is not running again; local rumors are that he’s simply tired of not living in Colorado and doing the semi-commute for such a small role. (I’ve done the semi-commute; it’s miserable even if you get to fly first class.) The five-term (D) Representative from a district over is running for governor in 2018 instead.
Not sure what the situation is there – are the districts solidly D? If not, I wish I could summon the tears. At this moment in history (assuming they think they can continue to carry the district), I’m appalled. If they have a reasonable successor, good for them.
I think Bernie would have won.
I almost always agree with you wonkie, but not on this. I think he wouldn’t have won (and he didn’t deserve to win the primary). People like Russ Feingold didn’t win. The problem was in a few swing states (like WI, where Feingold lost) where people like NV were careless with their vote, thinking that it was so emo to play games, or that purism was the way to go.
I would have voted for Bernie, because I’m a good do bee, and I fall in line. Lots of people saw Bernie’s program theories as a fraud (and I did too, but would have voted for him anyway because he might have headed things into a decent place as opposed to Trump). Tad Devine and Jeff Weaver are both very questionable characters. Creepy as hell. Bernie’s wife has baggage galore (and not just recently). Hillary Clinton didn’t run a negative campaign against Bernie, because she didn’t want to alienate his base (maybe a bad move). There is likely plenty there. Start with his failure to release his tax returns. Sound familiar? Should be raising alarm bells everywhere.
That all said, Bernie’s on the right side of the fence, and I’ll definitely do what I do if I have to do it. Oh, and I liked Bernie a lot for quite awhile.
Not sure what the situation is there – are the districts solidly D?
The next district over is solidly D. My district has steadily become a solid D (in the 30 years I’ve lived here, it has moved Democratic to the tune of about seven percentage points).
I didn’t like either Bernie (surely there were others who weren’t going to put the (I) back behind their name as soon as they lost) or Hillary (too many unnecessary tone-deaf things over the years). But I voted for whoever had the (D) after their name in November, and urged others to do likewise, because post-2018 I wanted someone to protect me from a Republican Congress, where the real danger was/is. I have been pleasantly surprised by their incompetence, but really, really hate having to depend on it for sanity to prevail. Unfortunately, Pruitt and Zinke are doing their damnedest to screw the West via regulatory change.
Not sure what the situation is there – are the districts solidly D?
The next district over is solidly D. My district has steadily become a solid D (in the 30 years I’ve lived here, it has moved Democratic to the tune of about seven percentage points).
I didn’t like either Bernie (surely there were others who weren’t going to put the (I) back behind their name as soon as they lost) or Hillary (too many unnecessary tone-deaf things over the years). But I voted for whoever had the (D) after their name in November, and urged others to do likewise, because post-2018 I wanted someone to protect me from a Republican Congress, where the real danger was/is. I have been pleasantly surprised by their incompetence, but really, really hate having to depend on it for sanity to prevail. Unfortunately, Pruitt and Zinke are doing their damnedest to screw the West via regulatory change.
Thanks, Michael Cain. I know you’ve been in the weeds in a way I can only imagine.
Thanks, Michael Cain. I know you’ve been in the weeds in a way I can only imagine.
I think Bernie would have won.
So, the first thing I should say is I was very enthusiastic about Bernie. I appreciated his focus on populist economics, without the racist baggage. I sent Bernie $50 a month for a year.
The next two things I have to say about Bernie are:
1. I don’t know if he would have won. The election would have been a very different kettle of fish, but I have no idea how it would have played out.
2. Assuming he won – what then?
In terms of political experience and smarts, capacity for basic effective executive function, and foreign policy exposure, Clinton was the best candidate. I.e., had, hands down, the best resume. By many, many, many miles.
People didn’t like her. Unfortunately, the first job of POTUS is apparently to be Our National Pal. She even did the shot-and-a-beer thing when she was running for the (D) nomination in 2008, and that wasn’t good enough.
So now we’re fucked until further notice.
I think Bernie would have won.
So, the first thing I should say is I was very enthusiastic about Bernie. I appreciated his focus on populist economics, without the racist baggage. I sent Bernie $50 a month for a year.
The next two things I have to say about Bernie are:
1. I don’t know if he would have won. The election would have been a very different kettle of fish, but I have no idea how it would have played out.
2. Assuming he won – what then?
In terms of political experience and smarts, capacity for basic effective executive function, and foreign policy exposure, Clinton was the best candidate. I.e., had, hands down, the best resume. By many, many, many miles.
People didn’t like her. Unfortunately, the first job of POTUS is apparently to be Our National Pal. She even did the shot-and-a-beer thing when she was running for the (D) nomination in 2008, and that wasn’t good enough.
So now we’re fucked until further notice.
Hilarity ensues, no doubt.
I think I might be out of the country that day. Hope something’s left when it’s time to come back.
Hilarity ensues, no doubt.
I think I might be out of the country that day. Hope something’s left when it’s time to come back.
Insurance companies turning undocumented immigrants who file workers comp claims over to ICE for deportation.
Land of the free, y’all.
I’m sorry to say it, but I’m learning to despise my own country. And fellow-citizens. What a bunch of cheesy lame scumbags we’re turning into.
The thing is, none of this is anything new. It keeps coming up, again and again. Our history is full of bullshit like this.
We make a little progress, then we piss it away. What a bunch of frightened little punk-ass bullies we are.
The folks who voted for Trump own this bullshit. I don’t give a shit how “left behind” you feel, if you wish this kind of crap on other people you are a miserable excuse for a human being.
Everyone who voted for Trump needs to take a good long look in the mirror. This is what you asked for, and now you have it. If stuff like this makes you happy, you need to check your freaking head.
I will not forget this, ever. We are living through yet another shameful time in our nation’s history. If that isn’t clear to you, you need to wise up.
We suck right now. Shame on us.
Insurance companies turning undocumented immigrants who file workers comp claims over to ICE for deportation.
Land of the free, y’all.
I’m sorry to say it, but I’m learning to despise my own country. And fellow-citizens. What a bunch of cheesy lame scumbags we’re turning into.
The thing is, none of this is anything new. It keeps coming up, again and again. Our history is full of bullshit like this.
We make a little progress, then we piss it away. What a bunch of frightened little punk-ass bullies we are.
The folks who voted for Trump own this bullshit. I don’t give a shit how “left behind” you feel, if you wish this kind of crap on other people you are a miserable excuse for a human being.
Everyone who voted for Trump needs to take a good long look in the mirror. This is what you asked for, and now you have it. If stuff like this makes you happy, you need to check your freaking head.
I will not forget this, ever. We are living through yet another shameful time in our nation’s history. If that isn’t clear to you, you need to wise up.
We suck right now. Shame on us.
I was listening to a piece on NPR this morning on the way to work. Apparently, as part of some kind of national campaign against the MS-13 gang, cops are following Hispanic high school kids around, looking for any clue that they might be involved.
The gang recruits school-age kids, so it’s not a totally insane idea.
They saw some young woman in Brentwood NY talking to some kids that they thought were gang kids, so they picked her up. Held in in NJ for, like, a month.
They did very politely not put her in cuffs until they got her in the cop car. Nice guys.
The girl came here from El Salvador. Which is, like, MS-13 ground zero, apparently. She came here *to get the fuck away from MS-13*. She walked here. By herself. It took her a freaking month and a half.
She walked here. To this country. By herself. For a month and a half. To get away from the shambles MS-13 is making of her own country.
Fortunately she somehow got a good lawyer and, after being held with no charges in some god-damned holding joint in Jersey for a month, was returned to her family.
She doesn’t want to go back to her high school. She’s afraid they’ll just come after her again for some bullshit or other.
The girl has an active application for legal residency in the works. She’s not hiding. She’s working the program.
She fucking walked here from El Salvador. By herself. It took her a month and a half.
Our fearful hysteria is bleeding us of every shred of human decency. It’s fucked up. We need to wake the hell up and see if we can rescue some ounce of our common humanity.
We have fucking Nazis walking the streets in broad daylight, and the President can’t even condemn it without reaching for some kind of “both sides do it” bullshit.
We need to decide what kind of people we want to be. If this is the kind of people we want to be, I want nothing to do with it. If I have to leave, I’ll leave. If I have to get a fucking gun and fight this bullshit, I’ll do that.
But this crap is shameful. It is despicable, bullying cowardice.
I despise it.
I was listening to a piece on NPR this morning on the way to work. Apparently, as part of some kind of national campaign against the MS-13 gang, cops are following Hispanic high school kids around, looking for any clue that they might be involved.
The gang recruits school-age kids, so it’s not a totally insane idea.
They saw some young woman in Brentwood NY talking to some kids that they thought were gang kids, so they picked her up. Held in in NJ for, like, a month.
They did very politely not put her in cuffs until they got her in the cop car. Nice guys.
The girl came here from El Salvador. Which is, like, MS-13 ground zero, apparently. She came here *to get the fuck away from MS-13*. She walked here. By herself. It took her a freaking month and a half.
She walked here. To this country. By herself. For a month and a half. To get away from the shambles MS-13 is making of her own country.
Fortunately she somehow got a good lawyer and, after being held with no charges in some god-damned holding joint in Jersey for a month, was returned to her family.
She doesn’t want to go back to her high school. She’s afraid they’ll just come after her again for some bullshit or other.
The girl has an active application for legal residency in the works. She’s not hiding. She’s working the program.
She fucking walked here from El Salvador. By herself. It took her a month and a half.
Our fearful hysteria is bleeding us of every shred of human decency. It’s fucked up. We need to wake the hell up and see if we can rescue some ounce of our common humanity.
We have fucking Nazis walking the streets in broad daylight, and the President can’t even condemn it without reaching for some kind of “both sides do it” bullshit.
We need to decide what kind of people we want to be. If this is the kind of people we want to be, I want nothing to do with it. If I have to leave, I’ll leave. If I have to get a fucking gun and fight this bullshit, I’ll do that.
But this crap is shameful. It is despicable, bullying cowardice.
I despise it.
But this crap is shameful. It is despicable, bullying cowardice.
Something I can agree wholeheartedly with you on.
But this crap is shameful. It is despicable, bullying cowardice.
Something I can agree wholeheartedly with you on.
Pedophile ring in the back room of a pizza joint. Right? We’re not talking policy differences here.
Wrong. In the basement of a pizza joint that had no basement.
It’s like the subterranean network of tunnels that connects all WalMarts and is used by the Feds to invade Texas and to keep patriots prisoner in (before they get transferred to Mars as slave labor).
Pedophile ring in the back room of a pizza joint. Right? We’re not talking policy differences here.
Wrong. In the basement of a pizza joint that had no basement.
It’s like the subterranean network of tunnels that connects all WalMarts and is used by the Feds to invade Texas and to keep patriots prisoner in (before they get transferred to Mars as slave labor).
The folks who voted for Trump own this bullshit.
goddamned right.
on all of it.
The folks who voted for Trump own this bullshit.
goddamned right.
on all of it.
FL GOP y’all.
Pediatricians say Florida hurt sick kids to help big GOP donors
Party of Life/Family Values.
FL GOP y’all.
Pediatricians say Florida hurt sick kids to help big GOP donors
Party of Life/Family Values.
we are ending our program of assistance to children fleeing violence in south and central america.
make america cruel again
we are ending our program of assistance to children fleeing violence in south and central america.
make america cruel again
cruelty now, cruelty tomorrow, cruelty forever.
cruelty now, cruelty tomorrow, cruelty forever.
The current GOP does not believe anyone who is a minority should be allowed to vote.
SCOTUS’s Shelby County decision was horribly horribly wrong.
The current GOP does not believe anyone who is a minority should be allowed to vote.
SCOTUS’s Shelby County decision was horribly horribly wrong.
So were not a shining city on a hill? Or just one with a wall and a moat?
So were not a shining city on a hill? Or just one with a wall and a moat?
And a permanent underclass deliberately kept down by policy decisions at all levels of government
And a permanent underclass deliberately kept down by policy decisions at all levels of government
Redemption is possible, though:
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/18/former-neo-nazi-charlottesville-terrifies-me-215502
Redemption is possible, though:
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/18/former-neo-nazi-charlottesville-terrifies-me-215502
i was promised Greatness.
where’s the Greatness?
i was promised Greatness.
where’s the Greatness?
SCOTUS’s Shelby County decision was horribly horribly wrong.
I was never quite clear whether they were just massively insulated from what was happening in the world outside their courtroom. Or just so devoted to ideology that they couldn’t bring themselves to recognize it.
SCOTUS’s Shelby County decision was horribly horribly wrong.
I was never quite clear whether they were just massively insulated from what was happening in the world outside their courtroom. Or just so devoted to ideology that they couldn’t bring themselves to recognize it.
From Nigel’s link:
Scary stuff. The is a more radical version of the widespread phenomenon of “conservative” media.
It reminds me of this:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/how-fox-news-made-my-dad-crazy
From Nigel’s link:
Scary stuff. The is a more radical version of the widespread phenomenon of “conservative” media.
It reminds me of this:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/how-fox-news-made-my-dad-crazy
i’ve said it before: humans are just too dumb for the internet. we aren’t great at telling fact from fiction and the internet is a great ocean of both. any dumb idea someone has, support can be found for it on the internet.
i’ve said it before: humans are just too dumb for the internet. we aren’t great at telling fact from fiction and the internet is a great ocean of both. any dumb idea someone has, support can be found for it on the internet.
Redemption is possible
It’s always possible. It’s always readily available. Folks just have to recognize they need it, and then want to change.
Most stories I read of folks who have stepped away from these kinds of organizations make the change because they finally figure out that people who aren’t like them aren’t their enemy.
It’s a hell of a lot harder to hate somebody when you’re looking them in the eye.
Redemption is possible
It’s always possible. It’s always readily available. Folks just have to recognize they need it, and then want to change.
Most stories I read of folks who have stepped away from these kinds of organizations make the change because they finally figure out that people who aren’t like them aren’t their enemy.
It’s a hell of a lot harder to hate somebody when you’re looking them in the eye.
here’s a fun one: alt-Right/Nazi ties to Russia.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/8/18/1689526/-AFTER-CHARLOTTESVILLE-Seven-key-Nazis-and-their-links-to-Putin-amp-Trump
i’m always a bit wary of dKos stuff. but this seems well-sourced.
here’s a fun one: alt-Right/Nazi ties to Russia.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/8/18/1689526/-AFTER-CHARLOTTESVILLE-Seven-key-Nazis-and-their-links-to-Putin-amp-Trump
i’m always a bit wary of dKos stuff. but this seems well-sourced.
Most stories I read of folks who have stepped away from these kinds of organizations make the change because they finally figure out that people who aren’t like them aren’t their enemy.
It’s a hell of a lot harder to hate somebody when you’re looking them in the eye.
Witness the speed with which attitudes towards gays changed when people discovered family members and friends coming out of the closet.
Most stories I read of folks who have stepped away from these kinds of organizations make the change because they finally figure out that people who aren’t like them aren’t their enemy.
It’s a hell of a lot harder to hate somebody when you’re looking them in the eye.
Witness the speed with which attitudes towards gays changed when people discovered family members and friends coming out of the closet.
I really think people miss the boat on the Shelby County decision.
Yes, it has allowed for some states to pursue nasty voter suppression measures, but I honestly think that is a reasonable price to pay to help end the insidious racial gerrymandering that the VRA allowed Republicans to implement in pre-clearance states. I have no doubt that without Shelby County, Corrine Brown would have gotten much farther in her efforts to thwart the application Florida’s voter initiative constitutional amendment requiring sane voter districts.
Those new lines resulted in two extra seats for Dems in Congress from Florida based on the 2016 results.
I’m not downplaying the damage of these voter suppression measures, but at least they are out in the open and can be fought. Gerrymandering is such a wonky process that never generated outrage. In other words, I’d rather fight voter suppression than gerrymandering.
For those of you who doubt me on this, ask yourself the following: Why were Pubs reauthorizing the VRA pre-clearance rules with a rubber stamp every time it came up?
I really think people miss the boat on the Shelby County decision.
Yes, it has allowed for some states to pursue nasty voter suppression measures, but I honestly think that is a reasonable price to pay to help end the insidious racial gerrymandering that the VRA allowed Republicans to implement in pre-clearance states. I have no doubt that without Shelby County, Corrine Brown would have gotten much farther in her efforts to thwart the application Florida’s voter initiative constitutional amendment requiring sane voter districts.
Those new lines resulted in two extra seats for Dems in Congress from Florida based on the 2016 results.
I’m not downplaying the damage of these voter suppression measures, but at least they are out in the open and can be fought. Gerrymandering is such a wonky process that never generated outrage. In other words, I’d rather fight voter suppression than gerrymandering.
For those of you who doubt me on this, ask yourself the following: Why were Pubs reauthorizing the VRA pre-clearance rules with a rubber stamp every time it came up?
I was never quite clear whether they were just massively insulated from what was happening in the world outside their courtroom. Or just so devoted to ideology that they couldn’t bring themselves to recognize it.
When you review decisions such as Sebilius, Hobby Lobby, and Shelby County it’s pretty hard to see them as anything else but highly partisan, driven by their ideology.
I was never quite clear whether they were just massively insulated from what was happening in the world outside their courtroom. Or just so devoted to ideology that they couldn’t bring themselves to recognize it.
When you review decisions such as Sebilius, Hobby Lobby, and Shelby County it’s pretty hard to see them as anything else but highly partisan, driven by their ideology.
For those of you who doubt me on this, ask yourself the following: Why were Pubs reauthorizing the VRA pre-clearance rules with a rubber stamp every time it came up?
Because they were aware they would take a pretty big political hit if they didn’t. Shelby gave them the cover they needed.
My take is you have to fight both, but if minorities are effectively barred from voting, you’re entering a fray with one hand tied behind your back.
For those of you who doubt me on this, ask yourself the following: Why were Pubs reauthorizing the VRA pre-clearance rules with a rubber stamp every time it came up?
Because they were aware they would take a pretty big political hit if they didn’t. Shelby gave them the cover they needed.
My take is you have to fight both, but if minorities are effectively barred from voting, you’re entering a fray with one hand tied behind your back.
Because they were aware they would take a pretty big political hit if they didn’t. Shelby gave them the cover they needed.
My take is you have to fight both, but if minorities are effectively barred from voting, you’re entering a fray with one hand tied behind your back.
Posted by: bobbyp | August 18, 2017 at 01:19 PM
I’m not aware of a recent example where a Pub has taken a political hit for voting against the voting rights of minorities. In fact, they tend to be rewarded for it politically.
Think about it. Section 5 of the VRA required jurisdictions with a history of racial discrimination, i.e., the South, i.e., Pub Country, to go through pre-clearance for their voting district maps. Why would Pubs subject their base to this? The answer is simple: the Justice Department would give pre-clearance to voting maps that included a “max-black”* district. In other words, the USDOJ was practically requiring southern Republican controlled states to pack black voters in one or more districts which resulted in the dilution of black voting power.
That’s why Pubs rubber stamped reauthorization of the VRA every time it came up; not because they were worried about the optics of voting against the VRA. Hell, if the optics worried them so much, then they wouldn’t be pushing voter suppression legislation now.
FWIW, I’m fine with the concept of fighting both, I just recognize that it is *much* harder to mobilize opposition to voting maps than voter suppression legislation. If I’m picking my battlefield, I’ll go with voter suppression legislation.
* Not my term.
Because they were aware they would take a pretty big political hit if they didn’t. Shelby gave them the cover they needed.
My take is you have to fight both, but if minorities are effectively barred from voting, you’re entering a fray with one hand tied behind your back.
Posted by: bobbyp | August 18, 2017 at 01:19 PM
I’m not aware of a recent example where a Pub has taken a political hit for voting against the voting rights of minorities. In fact, they tend to be rewarded for it politically.
Think about it. Section 5 of the VRA required jurisdictions with a history of racial discrimination, i.e., the South, i.e., Pub Country, to go through pre-clearance for their voting district maps. Why would Pubs subject their base to this? The answer is simple: the Justice Department would give pre-clearance to voting maps that included a “max-black”* district. In other words, the USDOJ was practically requiring southern Republican controlled states to pack black voters in one or more districts which resulted in the dilution of black voting power.
That’s why Pubs rubber stamped reauthorization of the VRA every time it came up; not because they were worried about the optics of voting against the VRA. Hell, if the optics worried them so much, then they wouldn’t be pushing voter suppression legislation now.
FWIW, I’m fine with the concept of fighting both, I just recognize that it is *much* harder to mobilize opposition to voting maps than voter suppression legislation. If I’m picking my battlefield, I’ll go with voter suppression legislation.
* Not my term.
The biggest voter suppression is the felony convictions of minorities for victimless crimes.
The biggest voter suppression is the felony convictions of minorities for victimless crimes.
Bannon’s out. http://www.avclub.com/article/steve-bannon-leaving-white-house-spend-more-time-s-259642
i wish i thought this would matter. but i don’t think it will. Trump doesn’t look like he’s ever been Bannon’s puppet (no puppet! no puppet! you’re the puppet); Trump is a perfectly rotten scumbag all on his own. nobody’s making him say the crazy crap he says every day, and he’s going to keep saying it.
Bannon’s out. http://www.avclub.com/article/steve-bannon-leaving-white-house-spend-more-time-s-259642
i wish i thought this would matter. but i don’t think it will. Trump doesn’t look like he’s ever been Bannon’s puppet (no puppet! no puppet! you’re the puppet); Trump is a perfectly rotten scumbag all on his own. nobody’s making him say the crazy crap he says every day, and he’s going to keep saying it.
It seems likely to matter only in that Bannon “knows where the bodies are buried.” Which means, he could go beyond the interviews which were the proximate cause of his departure, and make things hot for various other people who are still at the White House.
It seems likely to matter only in that Bannon “knows where the bodies are buried.” Which means, he could go beyond the interviews which were the proximate cause of his departure, and make things hot for various other people who are still at the White House.
The biggest voter suppression is the felony convictions of minorities for victimless crimes.
Posted by: CharlesWT | August 18, 2017 at 01:37 PM
I completely agree.
The biggest voter suppression is the felony convictions of minorities for victimless crimes.
Posted by: CharlesWT | August 18, 2017 at 01:37 PM
I completely agree.
It also makes the unemployment numbers look better. Imagine how much bigger the unemployment gaps between racial/ethnic groups would be if the incarcerated were in the workforce denominator.
It also makes the unemployment numbers look better. Imagine how much bigger the unemployment gaps between racial/ethnic groups would be if the incarcerated were in the workforce denominator.
When John “lawless” Roberts has to completely ignore a relevant part of the Constitution (15th Amd., Section 2) and instead goes with using a justification based on the Confederate Constitution, it really doesn’t matter whether he’s ‘isolated’ or ‘ideological’.
“Dishonest traitor to the constitution” covers it nicely, though.
When John “lawless” Roberts has to completely ignore a relevant part of the Constitution (15th Amd., Section 2) and instead goes with using a justification based on the Confederate Constitution, it really doesn’t matter whether he’s ‘isolated’ or ‘ideological’.
“Dishonest traitor to the constitution” covers it nicely, though.
Previous comment based on Shelby County
Previous comment based on Shelby County
I’ll admit that Shelby County was not decided on the most solid of grounds, but neither was Roe v. Wade and I’m guessing that does not keep most of us here up at night.
We were discussing the *impact* of Shelby County which I maintain is a net positive as long as efforts continue to get rid of gerrymandering in those states that are still afflicted by it and we deal with the regrettable efforts to suppress voting.
And keep in mind, Shelby County still allows suits to be brought under the VRA to challenge the impact of voting law changes.
I’ll admit that Shelby County was not decided on the most solid of grounds, but neither was Roe v. Wade and I’m guessing that does not keep most of us here up at night.
We were discussing the *impact* of Shelby County which I maintain is a net positive as long as efforts continue to get rid of gerrymandering in those states that are still afflicted by it and we deal with the regrettable efforts to suppress voting.
And keep in mind, Shelby County still allows suits to be brought under the VRA to challenge the impact of voting law changes.