Is Joe Lieberman Still Available?

by

I want a President who finishes what he starts. (The linked CSIS Report on Iraq is required reading, y’all. Via Sullivan.)

I hate to be shrill on this, and I hate all the more for Obsidian Wings to turn (further) to the left as the election approaches. I am, after all, the putative moderate on this site, and I have an interest in keeping this site (and its commentators) suitably moder-iffic. But, enough is enough. What the Hell does a guy have to do to get fired in this town?

(Yglesias, excerpted and embellished upon by our own Hilzoy, provides the rest of the answer.)

So, Lieberman — aka the Big Lieb, aka the Ninja, aka Joey from the CT — is still running, right? Whew, that’s a relief. I was afraid I was gonna have to vote for some warmed-over, two-faced, flip-floppin’ peacenik — like Kerry.

(Even Dean is preferrable. You reading this, Katherine?*)

von

*Former ObWi poster and Dean-booster; Kerry, apparently, is my just comeuppance for repeatedly arguing that Dean was somewhat to the left of Lenin.

41 thoughts on “Is Joe Lieberman Still Available?”

  2. Why did Katherine leave?
    The need to refocus on school, as I understand it. (She’s currently in law school.) We’re still holding a place open for ya, Katherine, if you’re reading.

  4. Just close your eyes and enjoy it, Von. I expect that Kerry won’t be a liberal as advertised and will be able to understand the recomendations of his staff once he’s president. He’s no great communicator but he can at least speak in complete sentances. In French, too! He’s demonstrated the ability to think quickly and well in critical situations. You are going to be please with Kerry as president if only for the relative improvement.
    And BTW, why would you think that you are giving up your centrist creds merely ’cause you’re rejectly Bush. In many ways Bush is a radical and Kerry, who entirely inhabits the American system of governance of the last 70 years, the conservative.

  6. I expect that Kerry won’t be a liberal as advertised…
    I don’t think he is as liberal as advertised, and I fully expect that, if elected, he’ll tack pretty hard to the center a la Clinton. I don’t think he’ll wind up as centrist as Clinton* but I suspect you’ll be pleasantly irritated with his governance.
    * Who was pretty much down the middle of policy-related public opinion, for better or for worse.

  7. Lieberman, blah. A holier-than-thou grandstander with negative leadership ability. If it must be a centrist Democrat, Bayh is available (although his charm wattage is also a bit on the low side). Bill Richardson has the foreign affairs legs and a generally impressive resume. Hillary Clinton would probably be the best–but only to the extent that the BD makes a full recovery, because you only get about 15% of the package if he ain’t a part of it.
    I’d like Dean, Clark, or Edwards over Kerry. Even Gephardt. But Kerry way way over Bush.

  8. It’s a misnomer to claim to be a moderate only because you can no longer support Bush.
    A bit like saying you’re not sure if you like the rain much anymore because you live near Slarti.
    (that is not to link any cause and effect to Slarti – he’s the only one on this site I’m aware of who’s in an active hurricane path)

  9. Among Republicans, most have unfortunately drunk the Koolaid and are too committed to Bushian policy. And I don’t trust “Straight Talk My Eye” McCain. But Chuck Hegel has a pair, that’s for sure. Giuliani is a self-aggrandizer (who will never in a million years win the GOP nomination from Jeb or Frist), but the best way to self-aggrandize as President is to be a good one (see the Big Dog), so that ain’t so bad.

  13. When I am choosing bumper stickers, not conversing, I am slightly less careful, which is why I am waiting for this, in both bumper sticker and T shirt form.

  14. Hilarious
    By the way, do I need special access in some way to add links to my posts? Or, am I missing instructions on how to link somewhere on the site?

  16. Stupid me. That would be: (one of those funny two-straight-line brackets) A HREF=”link”(another of them, closing this time)text(another, opening)/A(another, closing)

  23. Outta curiousity, my man Von, didya vote for Lieberman in the primaries?
    Lieberman was out of it by the time the Indiana had its primary, so no. I abstained. (FYI — That was my first primary election in Indiana, and, as I understand it, anyone can vote in the Democratic primary. Correction on the point would be gladly accepted.)
    Presently recovering from a business trip, so further posting/responses will be light. But I’ll read the links posted above.

  24. . . . and don’t forget, von, that we’re looking at a divided government.
    Yup, yup, yup. The Atlantic Monthly has an intriguing article on the benefits of divided government. (I’ve become a great fan of the At Mo of late.)

  26. The Atlantic Monthly has an intriguing article on the benefits of divided government. (I’ve become a great fan of the At Mo of late.)
    I go back and forth on the Atlantic. Some of their articles are fantastic (like William Langewische’s on the demolition of the WTC), but the fact that they give Christopher Hitchens a platform every month counts against them (and I don’t say that on partisan grounds; it was an article he wrote about David Irving that convinced me he’s worthless these days), as does the asinine language column they have on the back page. They also suffer a bit too much from the fact that many of the articles they feature are just excerpts from upcoming books. The same thing caused me to drop my subscription to the New Yorker.

  27. I hate to be shrill on this, and I hate all the more for Obsidian Wings to turn (further) to the left as the election approaches.
    Oh, c’mon von, give in to your inner shrill person (note: we need a noun that means a shrill person). On a more serious note your post seems to suggest that an interest in good governance is the province of the left.
    You don’t stop being a Republician if say that while Bush has some good ideas and his heart is in the right place, he just isn’t up to the job. Just do it, you’ll feel so much better.
    As a Democrat (full disclosure and all that jazz) one of the things that scares me most is the cult of personality that the Republician party has built up around Bush, to the extent that they think themselves disloyal if they are critical of him in any way. Not that such feelings apply to all Rs, just that such groupthink seems to have infected the party.

  28. I hate to be shrill on this, and I hate all the more for Obsidian Wings to turn (further) to the left as the election approaches.
    Oh, c’mon von, give in to your inner shrill person (note: we need a noun that means a shrill person). On a more serious note your post seems to suggest that an interest in good governance is the province of the left.
    You don’t stop being a Republician if say that while Bush has some good ideas and his heart is in the right place, he just isn’t up to the job. Just do it, you’ll feel so much better.
    As a Democrat (full disclosure and all that jazz) one of the things that scares me most is the cult of personality that the Republician party has built up around Bush, to the extent that they think themselves disloyal if they are critical of him in any way. Not that such feelings apply to all Rs, just that such groupthink seems to have infected the party.

  30. I WANT MY JOE-MENTUM

    A thought while sorting through the 60 Minutes documents controversy … I wish Joe Lieberman were the Democratic candidate right now. Not that this latest episode is in any way Kerry’s fault, but still. I was a Lieberman supporter during…

  31. D’oh – sorry for the double post.
    So long as you don’t start calling yourself “Bat Manuel,” all is forgiven.
    (Extensive knowledge of The Tick is required for that on, I’m afraid.)

  32. Von–yeah, I am reading, and I’m gratified enough to reply at length.
    At the same time, I doubt you’d like Dean any better than Kerry if he were the nominee; in fact I’m guessing you’d like him less.
    Kerry is not a flip flopper. He has not changed his position on the Iraq war. He has been MADDENINGLY consistent in his position, which was:
    –I am correctly voting for this war resolution to give Bush the leverage he needs at the UN and with Saddam.
    –But this is how we should use this authority: to make every effort to do this multilaterally, give force to the inspections, invade as a last resort and plan the occupation carefully.
    I say maddeningly consistent because it was a lousy position to begin with. I am convinced that it was driven by Kerry’s plans to run for President, though I’d also bet that Kerry has convinced himself he voted his conscience.
    To make matters worse, Kerry has emphasized one half of this position or the other depending on which was more politically convenient. But his position has not changed at all. Believe me, because I say this as someone who wishes it had. I would take Bobby Kennedy’s or Al Gore Sr.’s “flip flop” on Vietnam, or Drum, Marshall, or Yglesias’ “flip flop” on Iraq, over this any day. But Kerry’s position is consistent. He even uses the same freaking empty catchphrases to describe it. And its moderation should bother you less than it bothers me.
    Kerry is also not a peacenik. Maybe in 1972, but not now. To be honest I’m not even sure where you’re getting that idea, so I can’t respond in detail.
    One thing I learned working for the Dean campaign: the popular storyline about a candidate is more a result of sheer repetition, by the opposing campaign and by pundits, than it is of the truth about the candidate. Gore was not a robot or a liar. Bush was not stupid. Joe Lieberman was not a Republican. Dean was not a dangerous hothead or an extreme leftist. Edwards is no lightweight. Kerry is not a flip flopping peacenik. Clark was not…I don’t remember what people were saying about Clark, but there was a dismissive storyline about him too.
    There are real people up there on those stages. They are not who the press tells you they are. They may be better or worse, but they are almost certainly different.
    I learned this firsthand. Dean was angry, yes, but most of the heat he took came from being: a) stubborn as all hell, b) inexperienced in and incredibly naive about national politics, c) born without a poker face, d) the clear frontrunner in a field of 7, e) the first person to forcefully oppose Bush, and f) the first and only major candidate to clearly oppose the war.
    He had all sorts of bad qualities. But he was also unusually honest, unusually willing to risk himself to do the right thing, an unusually quick study, unusually willing to change his mind if the facts proved him wrong, unusually able to express himself in clear language without talking down to voters, and had helped an unusual number of people in his admittedly tiny state in his years as governor.
    I have a lot, a lot of issues with Kerry–if you think I’m bitter about Iraq wait till you hear me about gay marriage–but he has some things going for him too. He knows what he is doing, in military foreign and domestic policy, better than Clinton or Bush or any other presidential candidate this year. He is as capable of real courage as of political opportunism, and I am not talking only about Vietnam. He cares about policy. Everything policy plan I have read about–his education proposal, his health care plan, his tax proposal, his nuclear non-proliferation plan, his position on Sudan, his position on North Korea, his position on Iran–is solid and a lot of them are excellent.
    Good luck finding out what they are without hours of tedious research, though, because he is not a good campaigner at all. He does not charm, inspire, or even express himself clearly. (He is a decent defensive strategist, and that usually saves him in the end.)
    But good campaigners can make lousy Presidents and vice versa. Not only do I have no trouble at all concluding that Kerry will be a better President than Bush–I think he will also be a good President in his own right, and a notably better President than Bill Clinton.

  33. (Extensive knowledge of The Tick is required for that on, I’m afraid.)
    Ugh . . . can’t resist . . . Most quote . . . The Tick:
    “You’re not going crazy Arthur. You’re going sane in a crazy world!”

  34. What Katherine said. Plus, I do remember what people said about Clark. First, he flip-flopped on Iraq — in fact, his position was quite consistent, and like Kerry’s, turned on the distinction between voting to authorize the use of force and voting for the war; that since one other officer badmouthed him, and two others with whom he had not served said that that first officer gave them pause, there must be something wrong with him; that he had no policies on anything other than Iraq (true right after he announced, if by ‘policy’ you mean ‘position paper’, not ‘clearly articulated statement of what you intend to do’, but false within weeks). It was during this period that, after ages of giving reporters the benefit of the doubt, I just gave up on a lot of them, since (before giving Clark money) I spent about half a day researching him, and found enough stuff to make it clear that a lot of them hadn’t bothered to even try.
    I am from Massachusetts, so I know a bit about Kerry. He was my Senator for years, and I still have various friends and relations there, most of whom are (surprise, surprise) politically informed and like to talk about this stuff. The most important fact about him, to me, is just that he’s a basically reasonable and competent guy, unlike our current President. More specifically, though, he is quite thoughtful and good on foreign policy; his proposal on health care is not just solid but really good; and he is not a crazed wildeyed liberal, whatever Bush might say about it. He is ambitious, but this doesn’t distinguish him from any other Presidential candidate, and my sense has always been that there were certain votes that he cast on political grounds. I think this was true of his vote to authorize the use of force in Iraq, though I have no evidence for this. On the other hand, he has been willing to be unpopular on some occasions, e.g. on the investigation into MIAs, which if memory serves was not at all popular with many veterans and with families who desperately wanted their loved ones to be alive, but was the right thing to do. He doesn’t fill me with enthusiasm, but this is less because of any huge flaw than because of an absence of positive inspiring stuff, other than a general thoughtfulness which, at the moment, seems to me a wonderful thing indeed, so low are my present expectations of Presidents.
    I wish we had a better candidate, and I worked my heart out to get us one. But Kerry would, I think, be a perfectly good President, and I don’t say this as a liberal, since I don’t really think he is one. (Unless the Republicans have so thoroughly coopted these labels that anyone to the left of tom DeLay counts as a liberal.)

  35. Katherine and Hilzoy-
    Regarding Kerry’s Iraq position, I think it’s clear what he would have done as Commander in Chief. He would have wanted to pressure Saddam into better behavior, especially concerning his weapons programs. If the inspections checked out, he wouldn’t have gone in to transform the country a la Bush.
    As a Senator, Kerry favored giving the President Congressional authority to do whatever, which by 20th century precedent he already has anyway. But as a lowly Senator, Kerry wasn’t in a position to do much else. Coming out against the invasion when it became clear that Bush was going to screw the pooch would have been politically suicide, Dean style. Sad but true.

  37. And before I leave the subject of The Tick, the TV show had everything. Clever writing. An inspired portrayal of The Tick by Patrick Warburton. And Liz Vessy running around in that skimpy little outfit.

  38. “When a nice clean brain tumbles into the dirty street to lay among the discarded wrappers and spat-out gum wads of wickedness, you can’t just pick it up and wash it off with soap and water; you have to think it clean from the inside out!”

  39. Sentiments repeated

    I think Alex Knapp has a winner: I’ve got no dog in this fight. As I’ve said before, I don’t think Bush or Kerry would be qualified to make sure that I got my fries with my drive-thru order. I…

  40. Enjoyed the comments must be poll driven.
    Issues may still be discussed in this election but not until Kerry stops debating Kerry.

  41. Von, just one comment, if we had followed you advise, we would still be waiting for the French to support the conflict.

Comments are closed.