by Charles
The appointment of State Department veteran John Bolton to the UN ambassadorship was a bold one. You don’t select a guy like Bolton and expect milquetoast. Quite the opposite. While there is no shortage of tut-tutting and worries from unnamed sources, Bolton is just the guy to challenge the waning moral authority and ineffectual leadership of this bloated bureaucratic body, as Anne Applebaum aptly noted. So, in keeping with the spirit of this choice, I propose a bold three-point initiative for Mr. Bolton after his confirmation. These are the sort of right-off-the-starting-block actions that will set the right tenor between the US and UN for the remainder of Bush’s term. Two of the three are deliberately confrontational. As they should be, since the UN has more often than not worked against American and global interests than with them.
1. Implement a full-court press on Resolution 1559. This should be easy since UN envoy Terje Roed-Larsen is already on it.
In a meeting set for tomorrow, Terje Roed-Larsen plans to inform Syria that the international community is united in insisting that Damascus comply with U.N. Resolution 1559 — and is prepared to impose wide punitive sanctions if it does not act quickly, the officials said.
The one difference–and it’s a big one–is that the U.S. wants Syrian troops and intelligence agents out of Lebanon before the May election. The UN timetable is more vague and unrealistic, since Roed-Larson essentially said that he’s OK with Syrian troops and spies in Lebanon, just as long as they don’t interfere. That’s kind of like telling the fox that he can stay in the henhouse, but to refrain from eating any chickens.
Bolton can also tell Kofi Annan to keep his trap shut when talking about Iran-financed Hezbollah and its pro-Syrian presence in Lebanon. Never mind that Hezbollah is on the State Department list of foreign terrorist organizations, and that it’s bone-stupid to negotiate with terrorists. Europe is beginning to get it.
European legislators on Thursday branded the radical Lebanese Hizbollah group a “terrorist” organization and urged EU governments to place the group on their terrorist blacklists, as the bloc did with the Palestinian Hamas group in 2003.
"[EU] Parliament considers that clear evidence exists of terrorist activities by Hizbollah. The [EU] Council should take all necessary steps to curtail them," legislators said in a non-binding resolution adopted during a session in Strasburg, France on Thursday. EU lawmakers also called on Syria to withdraw its troops and intelligence services from Lebanon.
Too bad Annan doesn’t get it. Hezbollah is more like the Party of Hell than the Party of God. That said, it’s hard to know if this New York Times article was a trial balloon or if the source was misquoted or it the source was working against Bush administration interests.
After years of campaigning against Hezbollah, the radical Shiite Muslim party in Lebanon, as a terrorist pariah, the Bush administration is grudgingly going along with efforts by France and the United Nations to steer the party into the Lebanese political mainstream, administration officials say.
That’s the problem in a nutshell with nameless sources on high-profile issues. You don’t know who they are or what their agendas are. Be that as it may, the following day Dr. Rice forcefully denied any softening towards Hezbollah. Publius Pundit has two good round-ups here and here on Lebanon.
2. Issue an ultimatum on Darfur. You have to give credit to then SecState Powell for declaring last September that a genocide is occurring in Darfur. Sadly, no action has been by the United States since then. It’s time to move bowels or leave the bathroom. Mr. Bolton should the give the UN a deadline for taking action on Darfur, and it would help if the UN recognized that a genocide was happening the in first place. How much more evidence is needed? If the UN continues to dither, then we should assemble a coalition for the express purpose of restoring Darfur to its residents, with or without the UN’s blessing. The UN Genocide Conventions were invoked for the first time ever last September. It’s time to make good on it.
3. Call for Kofi Annan’s ouster. Kofi Annan continues to mismanage this organization and his stability uber alles worldview shows that he has learned nothing from September 11th and subsequent events. Annan’s statements and actions, both yesterday (it’s as if the democrasunami never happened) and on many previous occasions, have made clear that he is the wrong man for the job. Leadership counts, and the right leader at the right time can leverage the course of human history for the better. The UN needs that leader right now. Mr. Bolton should demand that Annan be removed as Secretary General, to be replaced with one who understands that freedom cannot be sacrificed in the name of stability, that the UN can never be truly democratic until its members become so, that this body needs to earn back its lost moral authority, and the rampant corruption needs to end.
There are many other things that Bolton could and should do, but the above three items would be a nice way to get the ball rolling. One last observation. This is pure speculation, but I wonder if it’s no coincidence that The Diplomad signed off for good on February 5th and Bolton was appointed just one month later.
(cross-posted at Redstate.org)
Where to start?
I mean do we care about what the rest of the world thinks? or do we care only to the extent that it affects our agenda for the world?
By all means, since you have the power, challenge the waning moral authority and ineffectual leadership of the UN with the waning moral authority and ineffectual leadership of the US just don’t expect the result to be anything good.
“democrasunami” ?
WTF is that ?
but I wonder if it’s no coincidence that The Diplomad signed off for good on February 5th and Bolton was appointed just one month later.
Oh dear god…
And yes, what absolute cheek for Kofi to lambast the erosion of civil liberties in the Whar on Terrah
It’s like the terrorists have won.
“democrasunami” ?
WTF is that ?
The clinical term is premature e-jubliation
Oh, Chas. You really are ruining the site.
Bolton is on the record saying he doesn’t give a flying fig about things like Darfur.
And if you listened to Adam Ereli’s press conference it’s clear that Annan was espousing the same position as the Bush Administration; that Hizbullah is a force in Lebanese politics nad it has to be taken into consideration. Even Michael Young knows that.
Annan is staying, and the Bush administration has already determined not to seek his ouster.
While there is no shortage of tut-tutting and worries from unnamed sources…
Most of the sources I’m familiar with are named and proud of it.
As they should be, since the UN has more often than not worked against American and global interests than with them.
Are you deliberately implying that the highest good is the direct interest of the United States?
I mean do we care about what the rest of the world thinks?
Yes, but not at the expense of what’s in our best interests. I also believe that there’s a lot of overlap between US and global interests, postit.
“democrasunami”? WTF is that?
The tidal wave of freedom and democracy that’s been rolling since last October, starting when Afghanistan had its election, as noted here, cleek.
And yes, what absolute cheek for Kofi to lambast the erosion of civil liberties in the Whar on Terrah
Annan’s problem is his knee-jerk response of blaming America first, 2shoes, no matter that 50 million have been liberated and that it launched a whole movement of countries looking toward freedom and democracy.
Oh, Chas. You really are ruining the site. Bolton is on the record saying he doesn’t give a flying fig about things like Darfur.
Rubbish on the ruining business AND on Bolton’s opinions of Darfur, praktike. Just because I write an opinion you don’t agree with just mean the site is going down the tubes. As for Darfur, Bolton’s opinions on genocide are here. Remember also that this post is about I what I think Bolton should, not what he will do. I hope he takes my counsel.
And if you listened to Adam Ereli’s press conference it’s clear that Annan was espousing the same position as the Bush Administration…
Condi Rice was clear about Hezbollah. She directly rebutted and refuted what the NY Times had to say.
nuh uh
..do we care about what the rest of the world thinks?
Yes, but not at the expense of what’s in our best interests. I also believe that there’s a lot of overlap between US and global interests, postit.
There are no global ‘interests’ Charles only global consencus on shared interests. The appointment of Bolton as UN ambassador is as clear and unequivical as “your with us or against us”.
Annan’s problem is his knee-jerk response of blaming America first
For what? I say again: For what?
For terrorism? From your own citation:
He [Annan] said the root cause of terrorism was the belief by certain groups that such tactics were effective and had the support of people in whose name they were used. “Our job is to show they are wrong,” he said.
I say again: For what?
“Two of the three are deliberately confrontational. As they should be, since the UN has more often than not worked against American and global interests than with them.”
If the UN works against American and global interests how come the veto-wielding members permit that? A more plausible statement would be: some or all of the governments of the USA, China, Russia, Britain and France pursue bad policies and veto good ones.
There isn’t much that Kofi Annan can do about that. The permanent members have the power. The UN has always been a scapegoat picked on by those who don’t want to look closer to home for real culprits.
“Are you deliberately implying that the highest good is the direct interest of the United States?”
How do you get that from: “As they should be, since the UN has more often than not worked against American and global interests than with them.”
You are confusing “Poodles are dogs” with “All dogs are poodles”.
How do you get that from
Er, probably with the equation of the world’s interest as being the American interest.
Actually, that should be vice versa.
Sebastian – I think perhaps its the undisguised arrogance implied in the assertion that American interests and global interests are necessarily one and the same.
Or perhaps its Birds complete lack of understanding of how the UN works that could lead him to believe that the UN could ever act against global interests when there are no global ‘interests’ only a global concensus on shared interests as represented by the UN, therefore the UN could never be shown to be acting against its own interest since it has none.
Still with me?
So far very little about Bolton, a great deal about the UN. Given the overall situation Bolton is the right man.
Charles does not assert that US interests and world interests are an identity. He asserts “the UN has more often than not worked against American and global interests than with them.”
If the sentence had said “the UN has more often than not worked against American and UK interests than with them…” that would not imply that Charles believed American and UK interests were always identical, or that US interests were always UK interests or that UK interests were always US interests.
It does suggest that on instances when US and global interests were aligned, the UN more often than not worked against them. I’m not sure that is true if you count minor issues, but on major issues I would tend to agree.
Take Dafur for instance. You can certainly argue that the US has not done enough, but what it has tried to do has been thwarted in the UN first by France, then by China and then by Russia, (and I think now by China again but I am not following it as closely as I did the first two years).
“Or perhaps its Birds complete lack of understanding of how the UN works that could lead him to believe that the UN could ever act against global interests when there are no global ‘interests’ only a global concensus on shared interests as represented by the UN, therefore the UN could never be shown to be acting against its own interest since it has none.”
This expresses a huge category error. A lack of global consensus does not imply a lack of global interests. The idea that large administrative agencies can’t have their own interests is likewise incorrect–they tend to doesn’t make them non-interests.
Kevin’s argument is slightly more colorable, but only slightly: “If the UN works against American and global interests how come the veto-wielding members permit that? A more plausible statement would be: some or all of the governments of the USA, China, Russia, Britain and France pursue bad policies and veto good ones.”
This is of course ignores the UN permission for action angle. The UN is fundamentally a stasis oriented organization. As more and more states have used its edicts as a channel for international legitimacy, it becomes more and more difficult to do anything decisive. Dafur is once again an excellent example. Genocide has been taking place for more than two years now with no real action from the UN. The US and global interests were in taking action, France and then China and then Russia resisted. Saying that they resisted and that the UN did not is incorrect. The UN resisted because it is set up in such a way as to allow those countries to do so. Since the UN is stasis oriented, there is no shame attached to thwarting action even if doing so kills more people than action. France especially wants to thwart US leadership more than it can exercise leadership itself. See again the Sudan.
So no, I’m not with you at all.
I’m only thankful that google says Charles didn’t pick up the ridiculous and tone-deaf term “democrasunami” from anywhere. For a second there I thought we’d found the new “idiotarian.”
Another recruit to the administrations foreign affairs ‘charm’ offensive.
Chas
While I disagree with your take, I really want to thank you for putting your name, marking the crosspost and putting the stronger stuff below the fold. Maybe I’m valuing form over substance, but it really makes a huge difference imho. Having a knock down drag out over a subject like this seems to be substantially different from the previous ones. I would ask that people lighting into Charles to be a little more, well, substantive rather than pop off a bunch of rhetorical questions.
I think it is pretty fascinating to wonder who pushed for Bolton to be appointed. News reports are pretty unclear. Was it really Condi, or is she really just a figurehead here?
I’m also wondering what you think about Bolton’s unequivocal stance on the ICC. Given the problems with abuse of detainees (and the WaPo, I think, had a article outlining the probability that problematic interrogation tactics and lax attitudes began in Afghanistan and were imported into Iraq. Unfortunately, the WaPo site seems to be down for maintenance) and given your agreement with the problem, I’m wondering how you can justify opposition to the ICC.
Finally, it seems that the UN certainly did a better job of monitoring potential weapons sites than the US did.
If the sentence had said “the UN has more often than not worked against American and UK interests than with them…” that would not imply that Charles believed American and UK interests were always identical
Yes, actually it does. Or, at the very least….”mostly identical”.
Note, too, the global community is not some separate entity from the United States: America is part of it.
I’d also point out that tsunami should be analyzed as tsu-nami (harbor wave), so it should be democra-nami, unless you want to imply that it is a hugely destructive wave confined to a relatively confined location ;^)
“Yes, actually it does. Or, at the very least….”mostly identical”.”
I don’t see that ‘does not’ is going to help you to see it so feel free to interpret it however wrongly you want.
“Note, too, the global community is not some separate entity from the United States: America is part of it.”
Ok, and what of it? I presume you don’t mean to imply that when the US acts in its own interest it automatically acts in the interest of the global community. So what point do you want to make?
Perhaps next time he can refer to it as the airliners of democracy taking down the towers of tyranny. It would be about as tasteful and appropriate.
LJ: You must really hate “workaholic” and “telethon”.
LJ: You must really hate “workaholic” and “telethon”.
Now that you mention it…
I don’t see that ‘does not’ is going to help you to see it so feel free to interpret it however wrongly you want.
Warning: Inane semantics alert ahead
“Midge more often than not worked against Betty and Veronica’s interests”
vs.
“Midge more often than not worked against Betty and Humanity’s interests”
Whoops, Bolton’s confirmation ran into a bit of a snag
The idea that democracy is breaking out all over the Middle as a direct result of Bush’s actions and policies is tiresome and silly. Arrogant, too.
Democratic ideas have been promoted within Middle Eastern societies since the mid-1800’s when the Egyptians made some attempts at elections. Starting about twenty years ago a whole series of Middle Easttern countries instituted democratic reforms: Algeria, Tunesia, Yemen, for example. Some of the experiments failed, Algeria, for example , but the efforts should be acknowlegded by us, nethertheless.
Lebanon and Turkey have been democratic for sometime now. Jordan has a limited democracy within a monarchy. While none of these examples are ideal,they are all a great deal more democratic than regimes created by the US, such as the Shah in Iran.
So where do we get off claiming credit for everything, as if Middle Easterners were too benighted to manage anything for themselves?
Lily,
Thanks for listing those bastions of democracy. Don’t you feel silly yourself actually citing those examples?
Sure Lily, the U.S. taking down a dictator had nothing to do with it…
I agree with prakike up above… the site has gone down the tubes, but it isn’t because of Bird.
Congrats to pratike for the award from Steven Clemons. No i don’t feel silly. There is a long tradition in American politics of defining countries as democratic if their government behaves as our government wishes, and defining the countries as not democratic if they act independently of us. I think you are responding withhin that tradition. I was using the term ‘democratic” to mean simply that people got to vote. As I said, none of the countries are perfect, and, in some cases the democratic reforms failed. The assertion that the anti-Syrian demonstrations were inspired by our invasion of Iraq is a faith-based assertion, exclusive of any facts that could establish cause and effect.
…killing everyone it strikes.
Probably not the imagery you really want to go for, here.
“France especially wants to thwart US leadership more than it can exercise leadership itself. See again the Sudan.”
How do you reconcile this with France and us acting together in Lebanon, Sebastian? (Incidentally, do you think it’s helpful to speak of a shifting set of people in a regime as if they truly embodied a nation’s will?)
I’d also point out that tsunami should be analyzed as tsu-nami (harbor wave), so it should be democra-nami, unless you want to imply that it is a hugely destructive wave confined to a relatively confined location ;^)
At the risk of a Karnak award in the service of punnery, I’d conjecture that Charles was trying for democra-tsumashii–Democracy on the cheap, which seems to be the Bush administration’s typical method. :>
“the UN has more often than not worked against American and global interests than with them.”
Simply reflects all of the under the table money being funneled under the auspices of the UN.
“How do you reconcile this with France and us acting together in Lebanon, Sebastian? (Incidentally, do you think it’s helpful to speak of a shifting set of people in a regime as if they truly embodied a nation’s will?)”
Because unlike in the Sudan, they think they can publically take the lead due to their previous contact in the area.
Ah, the usual cogent and reasoned analysis from Charles.
The idea that Bolton would go to bat with the UN to end the genocide in Darfur is particularly amusing.
You are confusing “Poodles are dogs” with “All dogs are poodles”.
No, that’s why I said “implying” rather than “stating”. Chas never directly asserted the two notions — that of American interest and that of global interest (and I’m not sure what he means by “global interest” anyway) — were equivalent; his phrasing was, however, sufficiently ambiguous that I felt the question was warranted.
[And, I note, still unanswered.]
As for Bolton, it’s an appointment in the style of James Watts or Lt Calley: we apparently have to burn the UN in order to save it. I suppose one could call giving the rest of the world the bird (pun intended, but only because I’m easily amused) “bold” if one were so inclined; me, I’m not sure what purpose it’s supposed to serve beyond the mere catharsis of exercising power. I suspect it doesn’t really have one, and that whatever the nominal strategic purpose of the appointment is, it will work at cross-purposes with our supposed strategic goals. Which means nothing more than business as usual at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
I made a thoughtless statement upthread. Of course there is more to democracy that just voting; there has to be a regular process for voting on meaningful choices.
Iraq isn’t an outpost of demcracy because countries at least as democratic as we hope Iraq will be already exist in the Middle dEst. There are also governments that are partly democratic, like Jordan, and governments that are struggling to be democratic like Yeman. We are not teaching the Middle East anything they didn’t already know.
Appointing someone like Bolton to emphasize Bush Admin’s contempt for the rest of the world is just the thing to do now that the rest of the world is pulling back from the US financially and diplomatically.
I look forward to Bolton’s speech to the UN when our creditors stop shedding T-notes discreetly, as they’ve been doing, and decide to bite the bullet and dump them altogether, as they’re bound to do if they decide Bush means it when he says the SocSec trust fund doesn’t exist because the IOUs in it are meaningless.
I also look forward to the next “We Must Go To War Against Nation X” presentation Bolton or Rice give at the UN. I wonder if even the most lifelong, hardened, humorless UN ambassador will be able to keep a straight face.
Remember also that this post is about I what I think Bolton should, not what he will do. I hope he takes my counsel.
Sure, and I hope Bill Gates takes my counsel to give me a billion dollars. I’ll let you know how that works out; why don’t you do the same?
I gather Bolton used to be undersecretary of state for arms control. Anybody got any information on his effectiveness in that role?
It might be a useful pointer as to whether Sudan, Syria and the UN Secretariat have anything much to fear.
Republicans Are Party of the Future! What Future?
Charlie from Obsidian Wings explains why he thinks Republican are the party of the future, at least on the UN and John Bolton. The Heretik disagrees with Charlie, a lot. The Heretik does agree with Charlie on one thing. Obsidian Wings is an imp…
I’m afraid I was unable to read this post without thinking of The Phantom Menace. Not that I’m suggesting John Bolton, or President Bush for that matter, is Palpatine, but nevertheless.
I call for a vote of no confidence in Chancellor Valorum!
Bird advocates that we give the rest of the world the “bird” [credit to Anarch] so that we can further American interests. Appoint a jerk like Bolton and wind him up to spew his vomitous ideology on our behalf.
I know Bush fans revel in noting that under Bush, world opinion of the US has dropped to an all-time low — squandering in unbelievable fashion the world outpouring of sympathy from 911. Somehow that serves as proof of the correctness of his ideology — we most clearly show our strength by inducing loathing from others. I would say they have the same attitude toward domestic issues as well.
The UN post is the symbolic face of US diplomacy. Diplomacy is the art of getting along while furthering your own interests. Normally that means at least paying some attention to the interests of others.
What is advocated instead is a policy of belligerence allegedly on behalf of good (Darfur — Syria pullout). That is guaranteed to get the normal reaction to belligerence while achieving none of the good. Of course, to the Bush man this would only further prove the decadence of the rest of the world since in resisting our belligerence, they are allegedly proving that they are against “good.” The more they hate us, the more we must be doing the right thing.
All in the name of spreading freedom and democracy. Except you are not.
John Bolton asks, “How many dead Americans is it worth to you to stop the brutality?”
His answer seems to be…none.
Wow.
Here we have one recommendation that the UN is already following without Bolton and his tender ministrations, one recommendation that we stop something that (as Chuchundra notes) Bolton is on record as saying is not the sort of thing we should actually lift a finger to stop, and one recommendation that we fire the head of the UN, where the main cite given (apart from the Tacitus piece, which won’t open for me) is a statement where he says that the US should not sacrifice human rights in the war on terror, a point that (if I am not mistaken) all the authors of this site agree with, but that somehow turns into ‘blame America first’ when Kofi Annan makes it.
I’m with Josh. I think that President Bush was a “bold” choice for President, and I hereby call on him to rescind all his tax cuts. Let’s see how that pans out.
Some stuff from the Washington Post relevant to the likelihood of Bolton pushing the UN on Darfur:
liberal japonicus said I think it is pretty fascinating to wonder who pushed for Bolton to be appointed. News reports are pretty unclear.
We agree that the nomination is a giant middle finger extended at the U.N. and supporters of the U.N. Who does that remind you of? Our distinguished Vice President… whose influence is hard to overstate.
There are no global ‘interests’ Charles only global consencus on shared interests. The appointment of Bolton as UN ambassador is as clear and unequivical as “your with us or against us”.
It is a global interest to expand human freedom and democracy, and every nation acts in its own best self-interest, as we should as well. Rubbish to Bolton’s appointment as a “your with us or against us” move. Andrew Sullivan:
The UN needs someone from Kirkpatrick-Moynihan mold.
Note, too, the global community is not some separate entity from the United States: America is part of it.
A basic question, 2shoes: Do you believe that what’s good for America is also good for the planet? At the expense of sounding jingoistic, I do believe that.
The idea that Bolton would go to bat with the UN to end the genocide in Darfur is particularly amusing.
You must be thinking Bolton is some sort of free agent, Chuch. He serves the president. I’m not letting Bush off the hook here. The administration has done practically squat on Darfur for the last six months.
Bird advocates that we give the rest of the world the “bird” [credit to Anarch] so that we can further American interests.
Your assumption that pursuing American interests is implicitly bad for the rest of the world is disturbing, dm. I don’t think the majority of Ukrainians or Afghanis would agree with you, or the millions of others who want to liberate and democratize their countries.
Most enjoyable C. Bird post here so far. Thanks, Charles, it’s going down well with my morning coffee. You are a wonderful foil that brings out the best in some people, and I think the growing popularity of ObWi is certainly due to the stirring of the pot that resulted when you joined the crew.
I think there is a concious effort on the part of this administration to continually and pointedly illustrate to the rest of the world that the US is not at all interested in global concensus, nor gloabl interest (as global interests should surely be determined by global concensus, therefore by a forum like the UN). The administration is apparently not interested in reforming the UN to align its views to anything. They’re seemingly intent on repeatedly giving the finger to the UN. Reform takes diplomacy, and this appointment is anything but diplomatic.
Eh, ca ne faire rien. We, the rest of the world, will just look to our new masters, le Français.
A basic question, 2shoes: Do you believe that what’s good for America is also good for the planet? At the expense of sounding jingoistic, I do believe that.
Not only is it jingoistic (in the bad way), it’s also almost childishly naive. Clearly, things that we pursue in our own best interests have made large parts of the planet worse off, unless you believe that the realpolitik goal of choosing Iraq’s side in the Iran/Iraq war made life for Iranians, Iraqis or Kuwaitis better. And I don’t think you believe that. Likewise, our pursuit of what was “good for America” in Latin America led to untold misery in Chile and Argentina. It doesn’t make you a bad person to admit these things Charles, but it does make you look like a fool to deny them. “What’s good for America is good for the world” is far from axiomatic.
Your assumption that pursuing American interests is implicitly bad for the rest of the world is disturbing, dm. I don’t think the majority of Ukrainians or Afghanis would agree with you, or the millions of others who want to liberate and democratize their countries.
Oh, pshaw — that democratization will only be good for America to the extent that the newly empowered citizens of all these nations choose governments that we like. The first time they don’t, that democratization will have ceased to be a good thing from where we sit. You know it, I know it, and everyone here knows it, so who exactly are you trying to convince?
And I call a major effing Karnak on you for pretending to know what “the majority” of anyone who doesn’t live in your head thinks about much of anything.
Bird – Rubbish to Bolton’s appointment as a “your with us or against us” move. Andrew Sullivan: [pablum redacted]
In other words we should be gratefull we didn’t get Feith?
A Moynihan I could agree with but Kirkpatrick? wasn’t she the kook who wanted to shelve the ‘special relationship’ with our current best ally Great Britain over the Falklands fiasco?
++ungood, the French aren’t going to accept you in their new world order if they notice your grammar…
Jeez, what a pile-on: I guess CB could use a bit of support about now: Sorry, but he won’t get it from me: since I can see several major holes in his three suggestions for (what one presumes will be) soon-to-be Ambassador Bolton – which, in reverse order are:
1. Kofi Annan/UN internal reform
2. Darfur
3. Lebanon/Syria
1. Given that there are several problems with the UN’s internal controls on corruption/nepotism/misuse of funds, etc., do you really think it wise that the new US Ambassador starts off his tenure by making “demands” on the organization to “reform”, and its (freely-elected) leader to resign? Even given that the problems at issue exist and are serious, do you think any good will be served by Amb. Bolton pushing yet another “do it our way or else” ultimatum on the UN? Especially since the institution’s “lost moral authority” seems to be “lost” mainly in the eyes of right-wing Americans (who have generally expressed support for the UN and its works solely when it wholeheartedly backs US initiatives). Perhaps, in this case, behind-the-scenes diplomacy might be more productive, and a cooperative, rather than confrontational approach more fruitful (i.e., Bill Clinton for UNSG next time round)?
2. As to Darfur, the main tragedy has probably already happened, and while ameliorative efforts (by the UN, or anyone else) can still certainly be of use, the only thing that (as Tacitus pointed out on his blog last summer) will actually do anything to help the Fur would be a major outside military incursion to, in effect, enforce a separation of the Darfur region from the Sudan. While I actually agree with you in this case, as to what should I wonder, given Mr. Bolton’s expressed dismissal of the Darfur situation as something to get involved, what the chances of his (or anyone else’s) pushing for a solution are?
3. As for Lebanon (which, despite your “democrasunami” crack, is really the only substantive move towards anything like “democracy” in the Middle East); the rush to get Syrian troops out before the elections in May is probably a doomed effort from the start. However and whenever the Syrians withdraw will be on their own timetable, and not the UN’s (the sanctions bogey nothwithstanding), and will most likely be crafted so as to leave the Syrians’ proxies (mainly Hezbollah) in as strong a position in Lebanon as possible. And, hot air about “terrorists” aside, Hezbollah’s organization is not just going to fade away. They may, if smart, “disband”, and then “reorganize” as, say, “The Republican Party of Lebanon” or something, but are highly unlikely to give up their political leverage just because some US or UN bureaurocrat says so.
However, I do agree with about one point you’ve made:
The UN needs someone in the Kirkpatrick-Moynihan mold
(especially the Moynihan part) – but how really likely are they to get in the person of John Bolton?
++ungood, the French aren’t going to accept you in their new world order if they notice your grammar…
What did I miss?
“faire” is an infinitive (and I’d write “C’est egal” anyway but maybe that’s because my German’s better than my French), “le” is singular…
“Oh, pshaw — that democratization will only be good for America to the extent that the newly empowered citizens of all these nations choose governments that we like. The first time they don’t, that democratization will have ceased to be a good thing from where we sit. You know it, I know it, and everyone here knows it, so who exactly are you trying to convince?”
I for one don’t know any such thing. By way of example, I don’t like the elected government of France at all but I still think it is good for the world that they aren’t under the heel of Hitler or some other non-democratic crazy. I find the elected government of Germany annoying, but I think it is better off for the world that they are democratic than they would have been under a totalitarian Soviet regime.
Seb, are France and Germany nations without a recent tradition of democratic government moving towards newly-liberalized, democratic governments in the wake of some U.S.-spawned “tidal wave” of democracy? Like the nations Charles is talking about (Ukraine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon, etc.)? If they aren’t, why did you bring them up? I mean, I’m pretty sure I used the words “newly empowered,” but if you want to bring up irrelevancies, well, more power to ya, I guess.
Do you believe that what’s good for America is also good for the planet? At the expense of sounding jingoistic, I do believe that.
It would be really good for America if it received free oil forever, it’s enormous debts cancelled, and every other government in the world acted to promote the prosperity of Americans first. Somehow, I don’t think that would be very good for “the planet”.
However, let’s turn it around: Is what’s good for, say, France also good for the planet, Charles?
If not, why? They’re a democracy too.
Re the French, I’d say “Ca ne fait rien”. Which reminds me of a funny story from French class back in high school: British troops who’d been stationed in France in WWII came back to Ol’ Blighty wielding the very odd phrase “San Fairy Anne” as meaning something like “You’re welcome”. Turned out that all the French folk, delighted at having been liberated from the Nazis, were basically just giving stuff away to their liberators and when the Englishmen tried to pay they’d be brushed off with a “Ca ne fait rien”. Brits being Brits, they were constitutionally incapable of actually pronouncing another language, and so they bastardized it into “San Fairy Anne”.
As to the US interests versus UN interests (or, for that matter, US interests versus global interests) I think the two tend to correlate… but only if you define American interests in a far more long-term, global dynamic than usually described, especially by so-called “realists” (who, incidentally, I find to be staggeringly unrealistic). By way of simple illustration: I think it is in the US’ interest, and indeed the global interest, for there to be some kind of enforceable world order — that is, a way of enforcing treaties or ceasefires, a mechanism for resolving international disputes without violence, enough liquid force to crack down on human rights abuses, and so forth — but a necessary part of that order’s existence is that it not be directly answerable to the American will. [We lack both the power and the inclination to be the world’s hegemon, wishful thinking aside.] That in turn means that this order will necessarily make decisions that contravene our “immediate” interests, whether it be oil rights in Saudia Arabia or bombing Baghdad. This is the price we have to pay, however, for having the stable order in the first place: if we start overturning it to slake our immediate lusts, we destroy the very stability we want to keep long-term.
In that sense, I agree that US interests and global interests coincide. Where I disagree is that the US-interest-of-the-moment is the same as the actual US interest. Too intense a desire is placed on the somewhat infantile desire to always have our way, and not enough premium is paid to developing and nurturing a system wherein such infantile desires are kept in check. Until we, as Americans, become willing to cede some of our immediate power as an investment in long-term peace and stability, that world order — whether instantiated as the UN or as an informal collections of “Coalitions of the Willing” — will remain slipshod, tenuous, and violent.
There’s an interesting analogy to be drawn here between the US’ position in the world and, say, Al Sadr’s position in Iraq last year, but I haven’t the time to develop it with the delicacy required. And an indelicate approach… that would be bad. Very, very bad. So maybe later.
PS: The technical phrasing for what I’m espousing above is the fact that a “greedy” strategy — i.e. one that maximizes our (national) utility at every step — is not necessarily an optimal strategy. Far too often, we Americans fail to appreciate the distinction. I tend to think it’s part of our national ADD, wherein our monomaniacal focus on the present obscures (or sometimes obliterates) our view of the past, but it could just be as simple as thinking that we can have it all when really, we can’t.
double-plus ungood
Iterating hellwards
Lives out in a dark wood
Keeps a flock of fell birds
double-plus ungood
Muttering in funky French
Squints cross-eyed at Mac‘s “You should…”
Settles on a monkey-wrench
“Do you believe that what’s good for America is also good for the planet? At the expense of sounding jingoistic, I do believe that.”
And I believe that what’s good for me is good for the planet. I trust your $1000 contribution to me — for the good of the planet, and America! — is on its way now, Charles.
Of course, it’s always possible that either proposition is slightly more complicated than as put here, but let’s not worry our minds with such petty and unnecessary details, please.
“Your assumption that pursuing American interests is implicitly bad for the rest of the world is disturbing, dm.”
What do you think of the propositions that France pursuing French interests is good for the world, that China pursuing Chinese interests is good for the world, that Canada pursuing Canadian interests is good for the world, that Sweden pursuing Swedish interests is good for the world, or that Japan pursuing Japanese interests is good for the world? Is this a case of American exceptionalism, or a universal case for every country, or a case for all democratic countries, or what, that you are making with this assertion?
“I don’t think the majority of Ukrainians or Afghanis would agree with you….”
Is it your position that it’s impossible for Ukrainian and American, or Afghan and American, interests to conflict? Does this apply to all democracies, or what? What, precisely, is the rule you are asserting?
++ungood says: “The administration is apparently not interested in reforming the UN to align its views to anything.”
This is another point of view, but also more an assertion than a proven fact.
Anarch, in the 01:14 PM comment, makes sense.
What’s good for General Motors is good for America, and therefore good for the world.
Why not just have Bolton declare openly that the UN is valuable when, and only when, it serves as an extension of the US State Department and be done with all the roundabout nonsense? Seriously. This pretense that we believe there’s anything we can learn by participating in this organization makes a mockery of the efforts good-intentioned people who work there.
Oh, I know, no one is calling for the disassembly of the UN…only the parts of it that have any teeth or could ever be useful in curbing US excesses. Let the parts that
feed the poor, fight disease, or clean up after natural disasters keep those little countries busy while we independently busy ourselves with ensuring that all the lucrative contracts available throughout the countries in the wake of the democrasumani (or whatever the ludicrous mutant term is) fall to the multinationals who donate generously during GOP fundraisers.
CB
Your assumption that pursuing American interests is implicitly bad for the rest of the world is disturbing… said ala Darth Vader, no doubt.
Well, good for you CB, in responding by simply making something up. I guess you began typing furiously after reading the first few words, and missed this part of my post: Diplomacy is the art of getting along while furthering your own interests. Get it? furthering your own interests is the goal, but you should also try to get along in doing so.
So you missed my main point that appointing the undiplomatic Bolton to a diplomatic post is basically stupid. My favorite description of Bolton? He carries a big stick but forgot about the speaking softly part.
And your other point — that opposing Bolton means opposing democracy and freedom around the world? This has the same intellectual maturity of labeling those against the Iraq war as for the terrorists.
What is delusional is Bolton is on record saying (re Serbia) that it is not worth any American lives to fight to overcome repression overseas. Makes one think that the Bush foreign policy doctrine of spreading freedom and democracy is not backed up by much substance.
As for the Afghans, I imagine they would much prefer that in addition to elections, we do something to provide security for their nascent democracy so that their “president” is, in actuality, something more than the mayor of Kabul, and that their country is not de facto ruled by drug warlords, which so far appears to be fine with Bush and certain to kill any democracy that he is allegedly nursing.
The Bush Admin has a near-perfect record in giving top jobs to people ideologically opposed to the very existance and mission of the agencies they run. (I’d even include Rumsfeld in that category, since he’s presided over the ruin of the armed forces’ morale and supply infrastructure in pursuit of his crackpot theories.)
In this context, Bolton is just more of the same.
The Bush Admin has a near-perfect record in giving top jobs to people ideologically opposed to the very existance and mission of the agencies they run.
It’s not just the top jobs either.
Another recruit to the administrations foreign affairs ‘charm’ offensive.
Way late, but…
LJ–I’d also point out that tsunami should be analyzed as tsu-nami (harbor wave), so it should be democra-nami
Would that make the Bush Doctrine the ‘Democranamicon’?
Klatu…
Verata…
Ni(cough, cough)!
Who is this quote talking about? It’s not who you think.
“He was the kind of person who, let’s put it this way, did not speak diplomatically…he did not speak in half-measures. He got right to the point.”
link
I should point out that the article makes no comparison.
Prone as I am to helpfully offering spelling aid: that’s “klaatu barada nikto.”
Gary–Prone as I am to helpfully offering spelling aid: that’s “klaatu barada nikto.”
Ah…that explains my little zombie problem.
Prone as I am to helpfully offering spelling aid: that’s “klaatu barada nikto.”
No, it’s not. Be careful, lest you confuse one pop-cultural reference with another.
Bad day for using languages other than English, apparently. Excuse my fouled French above.
“Be careful, lest you confuse one pop-cultural reference with another.”
I don’t think Ash did know his damn words. And, besides, he had one of those cheap knock-off, Necronomicons, not an authentic one.
Gort, on the other hand, would only respond to the correct words (although if you’re familiar with the original story, “Farewell To The Master,” by Harry Bates, you’ll know that Gort, in fact, was the boss of Klaatu). I have inherent faith in Gort, because a wise galaxy sent him, doncha know.
praktike has more of the behind the curtain stuff regarding Bolton.
lj – your praktike link doesn’t work.
Sorry about that. It’s here
http://www.liberalsagainstterrorism.com/drupal/?q=node/575
“The U.N. job is, in fact, Bolton’s consolation prize.”
Speaks volumes about the priorities of this administration that Cheney could get a crony the post as a consolation prize.
I’m happy to stay on the sidelines on this, except that Moynihan has been praised in this thread, something which made me choke. Moynihan took credit for insuring that the UN would be ineffective in doing anything about Indonesia’s genocidal invasion of East Timor. But hey, he really was a passionate critic of UN hypocrisy. Probably just self-loathing at work.
To be fair to Moynihan, later in his career I think he became more sympathetic to the Timorese, but my source for this is a biography of Bishop Belo which I loaned to someone and can’t check.
I’m just wondering where anyone has gotten the idea that Bolton was a crony of Cheney, which I believe speaks volumes of who ever raised the comment.
To be fair to Moynihan, to be fair to anyone who sits the seat, the individual represents the POV of the man who hired him. But Pat had great style as will Bolton, and style matters in the UN.
That perfect storm? its a gathering threat.
China passes Taiwan secession law
If the republicans claim the administrations actions in Iraq have had a positive effect on the Lebanese will they also acknowledge there has been an effect on the Chinese too, and not forgeting the Iranians and North Koreans of course.
You just don’t bother to read other posts or follow links do you Timmy.
“His chief ally, Vice President Dick Cheney, wanted to award him with a big post, sources say. And there weren’t many left. Bolton had also failed to get the No. 3 job at Defense that was being vacated by Under Secretary for Policy Douglas Feith, and the post of Cheney’s chief of staff and national-security adviser, currently held by Lewis (Scooter) Libby. A Bolton confidant says Cheney, adviser Karl Rove and White House chief of staff Andrew Card proposed him for the U.N. job.”
Color me unsurprised!
So the PRC’s position is new, well who knew. But you are right about North Korea and Iran. Especially Iran, nothing worries the Iranian fascists more that a successful Republic of Iraq.
Gosh, I was going to respond to all sorts of things, but Timmy’s last comment is so easy:
Slate: “At State, Bolton’s main job was to serve as Vice President Dick Cheney’s agent at Foggy Bottom, monitoring, opposing, and, to the extent possible, thwarting from within the moderating influence of Secretary Colin Powell and his crew of pin-striped diplomats.”
NYT: “A top Republican foreign policy official close to the administration said that it was well understood that Mr. Bolton might alienate Europeans, but that Mr. Cheney had pushed for him for the United Nations job.”
WaPo: “Powell’s successor, Condoleezza Rice, who passed over Bolton for deputy secretary despite strong support for him from Vice President Cheney…”
WSJ: “At a time when President Bush is trying to repair relations with allies badly strained by the Iraq war, the nomination is a further sign of the power of administration hard-liners and especially of Vice President Dick Cheney, who long has backed Mr. Bolton’s career.”
Newsweek: “His chief ally, Vice President Dick Cheney, wanted to award him with a big post, sources say.”
I could continue, but you get the idea. The volumes spoken by postit’s reference to Cheney are probably ones Timmy didn’t read.
What would we do without unnamed sources postit? Now go read the definition of “crony” and then read Bolton’s CV.
And Timmy: why would Bolton’s CV tells us whether or not he was “a close friend especially of long standing” of Cheney’s? Do you list your friendships on your CV?
hilzoy, kind of disappointed that you don’t understand the definition of “crony”
Do you list your friendships on your CV
Absolutely, they are called references.
Now go read the definition of “crony” and then read Bolton’s CV.
crony – a close friend especially of long standing.
My bad, I neglected to precede crony with political, for brevity’s sake you understand. By the way my CV does not list my cronies, sorry close friends.
What would we do without unnamed sources postit?
Well for one thing we couldn’t out CIA agents with impunity as political payback. I think this administration in particular would have a very difficult time of it without recourse to unnamed sources and unatributable comments.
What in the world does this have to do with the UN? When it comes to important treaties like the NPT, North Korea and Iran violate with impunity. When it comes to human rights, there is whining about Americans while nothing is done about an ongoing genocide. Genocide. Instead of resolving international disputes without violence, the UN sits back and pretends that nothing is happening. The UN has almost nothing to do with this vision of world interest that you have.
When it comes to important treaties like the NPT, North Korea and Iran violate with impunity. When it comes to human rights, there is whining about the UN while nothing is done about an ongoing genocide. Genocide. Instead of resolving international disputes without violence, the US sits back and pretends that nothing is happening. The US has almost nothing to do with this vision of world interest that you have.
Actually rilkefan your symmetric argument is just lame. The US is one of the only major powers in the UN which has tried to do almost anything about genocide in the Sudan, and it is one of the only powers that seems to take anti-proliferation measures seriously at all.
Also one of the key problems in the lame understanding of the UN is that many international disputes cannot be resolved without violence.
Feel free to try again with a real argument. Or don’t.
postit, simply put who brought Bolton into government and who has he worked for. A political crony has a certain ring to it. That is, Rober Kennedy was a political crony of his brother, the President.
I did like the segue though and I’m sorry that none of the people you’ve worked, can be referred to as “your friends”.
A political crony has a certain ring to it.
Yes it certainly does, just as I intended it to after reading this,
“His chief ally, Vice President Dick Cheney, wanted to award him with a big post, sources say. And there weren’t many left. Bolton had also failed to get the No. 3 job at Defense that was being vacated by Under Secretary for Policy Douglas Feith, and the post of Cheney’s chief of staff and national-security adviser, currently held by Lewis (Scooter) Libby. A Bolton confidant says Cheney, adviser Karl Rove and White House chief of staff Andrew Card proposed him for the U.N. job.”
Some of us have a life outside work Timmy, strange perhaps even painful as that realisation may be to those who don’t.
The UN has almost nothing to do with this vision of world interest that you have.
We both disagree on the extent to which that’s true, and the culpability of the US in that regard. Shall we spare ourselves the agony of running through this topic again and leave it there?
The US… is one of the only powers that seems to take anti-proliferation measures seriously at all.
To forcibly drag the thread back on-topic, how’s the securing of the Russian nukes going?
Sort of missed the admin’s actual investment of any diplomatic/political capital or, well, anything actually useful in Sudan. Let’s assume for the moment that the Europeans do squat – when do you think Bush&Co are going to take serious steps in Sudan? How long do you think it will be before those serious steps lead to a serious amelioration of the problem? At least the Clinton admin was afterwards ashamed of its horrible reaction to Rwanda.
We all know the admin has been lame on proliferation, don’t we? Re Pakistan maybe there’s some argument for lameness, but re Russia’s nuke material? And they’ve been lame on WMD precursors too. Why am I reading in the NYT evidence from the excluded-from-Iraq UN inspectors about how badly we neglected Iraq’s machine-tools weapons caches? Well, the recent outreach to Iran in concert with the Europeans was at least something.
Feel free to try again with a reality-based argument. Or don’t.
Sebastion – Also one of the key problems in the lame understanding of the UN is that many international disputes cannot be resolved without violence.
Oh I don’t know, world poverty, disease, population control, there’s a whole host of things the UN can do for the good of the planet without resorting to violence.
Of course we don’t need any more of this crap.
I would agree tho, in what you infer, that if violence is needed then the UN from past experience is not the preferred vehicle.
And by way of piling on.
Another negative for Bolton
Thanks a lot, postit. I wasn’t angry enough at BushCo for cramming another paleo-hack down the world’s throat, it turns out Bolton’s an mf’ing simpoid nutcase, too?
This is ridiculous. Maybe we should let the bastard get confirmed. The Bush Admin is batfart insane, half the country is batfart insane along with it. Maybe the best thing is to appoint Bolton as an announcement to the rest of the world that the US should be quarantined until it’s done self-destructing. Just get it the f over with.
SH, don’t mean to pick a fight with you. I’m dissatisfied with the UN. I think the US is in part to blame for the UN’s problems. And I think the US is responsible for problems entirely unrelated to the UN as currently configured. I think the Europeans are to blame for some of the above. It’s a sucky world and there aren’t enough hours in the day to apportion blame. But as a proud American I think we should shoulder our burdens first and complain about the shirkers second.
“Sort of missed the admin’s actual investment of any diplomatic/political capital or, well, anything actually useful in Sudan.”
Well then I’m afraid you haven’t been paying attention. Please google to find headlines from February regarding a US proposal for 10,000 peacekeeping troops with US air support in the Sudan. Or look up US proposed sanctions against the government which were thwarted first by France, then by Russia and now by China.
“Feel free to try again with a reality-based argument. Or don’t.”
Just because you don’t bother to pay attention to the news doesn’t make my argument bad.
actual investment of any diplomatic/political capital
“proposal”
and a pony.
Sebastian,
Those proposed 10,000 troops were for southern Sudan. Not Darfur.
postit
[sigh]
Political crony, you need to read some history bub.
I think the US is in part to blame for the UN’s problems.
Well yes it is. Who let the dogs (PRC) in?
diplomatic capital, what is that?
One thing I absolutely hate about newspaper journalists is that they can claim absolutely anything without substantiation. SARS was a bioweapon? If so, it was an indication of just how feeble China’s bioweapons program is/was. Google shows it’s almost completely the rumour rags that are pushing this idea.
But I keep forgetting this is the Chronicle we’re talking about, here.
Timmy,
“So the PRC’s position is new, well who knew.”
What’s new is our limited ability to oppose it. When China asks us whether we support this more aggressive restatement of their policy, we now get the choice of acceding and seeling out a democratic ally or watching our economy implode as the Chinese refuse to buy more of our debt and dump their reserves of our currency. China is just applying the old Golden Rule (“Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.”) in a way we should be very uncomfortable with.
“seeling” really should be “selling”
Southern Sudan is the current location of the largest percentage of the people fleeing the killings in Nothern Sudan, correct?
You use an example of the US doing what it can with the nearly useless UN as if the UN had already not turned down all of the other US proposals.
“Southern Sudan is the current location of the largest percentage of the people fleeing the killings in Nothern Sudan, correct?”
Seriously? Any evidence? My impression is that the refugees are mostly in Chad and West Darfur.
http://www.usaid.gov/locations/sub-saharan_africa/sudan/images/satellite/
Well yes it is. Who let the dogs (PRC) in?
And what is the GDP of those losers, anyway?
From the Report of the International Commission of Inquiry on Darfur (published in January):
“At the time of the establishment of the Commission and, subsequently, upon its arrival in the Sudan in November 2004, two irrefutable facts about the situation in Darfur were immediately apparent. Firstly, there were more than one million internally displaced persons (IDPs) inside Darfur (1,65 million according to the United Nations) and more than 200,000 refugees from Darfur in neighbouring Chad to the East of the Sudan. Secondly, there were several hundred destroyed and burned villages and hamlets throughout the three states of Darfur. While the exact number of displaced persons and the number of villages destroyed remain to be determined, the massive displacement and the destruction of villages are facts beyond dispute.”
Did any significant number of refugees really get from Darfur to Southern Sudan?
I’m also wondering what you think about Bolton’s unequivocal stance on the ICC.
I’m against our joining the ICC, LJ. When there are eleven investigations into the prison abuse scandal, there’s no reason to have another layer of prosecution. It’s tantamount to double jeopardy. I also have serious reservations about the ICC itself, who it’s accountable to, what it chooses to prosecute and the sovereignty that we give up in the process. Our system of checks and balances is working.
As for your NYT link, there’s no doubt that it was a huge mistake not to secure the weapon sites after the regime fell. Last item, thanks for the Japanese lesson. Democra-nami sounds better.
Timmy – Political crony, you need to read some history bub.
No I’m not going down that road, especially not with you. The dictionary meaning is quite enough for me.
Sebastian – You use an example of the US doing what it can with the nearly useless UN as if the UN had already not turned down all of the other US proposals.
If Russia or China turns down US initiatives at the UN then it is incumbent on the US, if it truly believes in the efficacy of it’s proposals, to negotiate with Russia and China to find a way for them to vote in favour. The idea is to ‘work the room’ and not simply throw up your hands like Pontious Pilate and hide behind the skirts of the UN as an institution.
Bird – When there are eleven investigations into the prison abuse scandal, there’s no reason to have another layer of prosecution.
When all we get is investigations like this one
then there is no layer of prosecution, only whitewash.
Actually, the ICC was set up for situations like civilian contractors in Iraq, overseeing torture in military prisons, where the US military cannot prosecute – these are civilians: and the US DoJ is unwilling to prosecute (who knows why?)
The ICC will not prosecute those accused of crimes unless the justice system of their country is either unwilling or unable to prosecute. That is certainly the case with the civilian contractors involved in the torture at Abu Ghraib.
“If Russia or China turns down US initiatives at the UN then it is incumbent on the US, if it truly believes in the efficacy of it’s proposals, to negotiate with Russia and China to find a way for them to vote in favour. The idea is to ‘work the room’ and not simply throw up your hands like Pontious Pilate and hide behind the skirts of the UN as an institution.”
You forgot France.
And eventually, I would guess after a couple hundred thousand are murdered and a million or so are driven from their homes, it might be better to act outside the UN rather than subject anyone to endless rounds of France, China and Russia trading objections. It is not incumbent on the US to try to bribe France, China and Russia into going along unless you accept the idea that the only way to deal with international disputes is through the UN. I quite specifically do not accept that idea.
It is constantly amazing to me that the same people who complain about the arrogance of the US when it tries to lead in the UN with respect to something they don’t like also complain about the US not leading enough when talking about something they would like to see happen.
There is a serious confusion here about the limits of diplomacy at the UN. We have gone at least four rounds of trying to do something about the genocide in the Sudan. In each case the US proposed action has been met with a ‘wait and see’ response. At this point the only thing we have to wait to see is how many tens of thousands of people will be murdered and how many hundreds of thousands will be driven from their homes. The US has not chosen to unilateraly deal with things in the Sudan. In my view that is unfortunate. But it is also independent from the issue of UN uselessness on the issue. The US has tried to take action through the UN. It has failed because of the various obstructive moves by France, Russia and China. Say whatever you want about the US unwillingness to act unilaterally. If you are suggesting that the US ought to ignore the UN and try to stop the slaughter without UN sanction I am in complete agreement. But that is an independent issue from general UN unwillingness to act.
I am not a UN advocate. I think it is an awful institution when it comes to matters of war and peace. Certain of its member nations would rather ignore genocide or other serious threats rather than act with military force. I believe others don’t care about genocide at all. The UN inaction reflects that. Those who think the UN is an important institution for world peace might want to examine the Sudan and UN political gaming with respect to genocide.
The US cannot act unilaterally in Darfur for obvious reasons that are yet one more consequence of the invasion and occupation of Iraq.
The UN is the sum of it’s parts nothing more nothing less, we can all wish it were better than it is but wishing doesn’t get the ball rolling. Personaly I prefer the chaos we have with the UN over the chaos that preceded it.
I hadn’t heard the news of the US proposal for 10,000 troops in the Sudan. Sounds great. When are they going?
“The US cannot act unilaterally in Darfur for obvious reasons that are yet one more consequence of the invasion and occupation of Iraq.”
But European troops are not tied down in Iraq. They are available if the UN wanted to act. I strongly suspect the US would be willing to contribute all sorts of transport support. Perhaps the UN does not desire to act.
“The UN is the sum of it’s parts nothing more nothing less, we can all wish it were better than it is but wishing doesn’t get the ball rolling.”
Actually I would suggest that the UN is a lot less than the sum of its parts.
If the UN cannot take action in the face of genocide for two years, why not just admit that it is not the proper forum to deal with genocide?
“Our system of checks and balances is working.”
Congress has done nothing. Nothing. Some of the Democrats have tried valiantly to do something about this; they have been completely stonewalled. And the military reports have varied greatly in quality–this most recent one is an appalling whitewash–and haven’t been serious about appointing people of high enough rank to investigate and recommend charges of the higher-ups. Anyway, as honorable as people like Taguba are & as impressive as the military justice system can be, an organization investigating itself is NOT an example of checks and balances.
I don’t think the ICC is the remedy here, but come on.
On the ICC, I can see an honorable basis for opposition, but not for what we’re doing. We could say “that’s great, but we’re the most powerful country in the world, we’re a target for politically motivated prosecutions, we’re understandably wary & we have our own laws against this, and we have some constitutional concerns about it. It’s great for a situation like Darfur where there’s no other options, but we’re going to wait and see before we ask our military to risk international prosecution when they’re already risking their lives.”
There’s no honorable basis for shooting it down regarding Darfur (I don’t think it’d be sufficient but it can’t hurt and might help), and for signing nonextradition treaties with countries like the D.R.C. and Uzbekistan.
Sebastian – But European troops are not tied down in Iraq. I wasn’t just referring to the lack of available troops. There are other reasons equally inhibitive.
If the UN cannot take action in the face of genocide for two years, why not just admit that it is not the proper forum to deal with genocide?
Perhaps it isn’t, suggest another, or perhaps we are seeing the limit of the UN’s efficacy when its constituent members are really only in for what they can get out of it. It’s called a lack of leadership.
Sebastian – But European troops are not tied down in Iraq. I wasn’t just referring to the lack of available troops. There are other reasons equally inhibitive.
If the UN cannot take action in the face of genocide for two years, why not just admit that it is not the proper forum to deal with genocide?
Perhaps it isn’t, suggest another, or perhaps we are seeing the limit of the UN’s efficacy when its constituent members are really only in for what they can get out of it. It’s called a lack of leadership.
Well that was messed up – sorry.
Sebastian – But European troops are not tied down in Iraq.
I wasn’t just referring to the lack of available troops. There are other reasons equally inhibitive.
If the UN cannot take action in the face of genocide for two years, why not just admit that it is not the proper forum to deal with genocide?
Perhaps it isn’t, suggest another, or perhaps we are seeing the limit of the UN’s efficacy when its constituent members are really only in for what they can get out of it. It’s called a lack of leadership.
“It’s great for a situation like Darfur where there’s no other options…”
Huh. Why would it be great for a situation like Darfur? The UN isn’t willing to get involved in stopping the genocide. The EU and most of its member countries are unwilling pretend it isn’t genocide while France obstructs UN action. What is the ICC going to do? Are they going to make arrests in the Sudan?
Getting the ICC involved would just be another case letting the Europeans get away with pretending to do something instead of actually bothering to do anything. They can then engage in useless tut-tutting. Endless blah, blah, blah instead of action. I’m not personally convinced that sanctions would solve the problem, but they don’t even want to do that much. If everyone is going to ignore the treaties about genocide because action is inconvenient, adding the ICC as another layer of paper isn’t going to help anything. This is one of those ‘enforce the existing laws’ situations. It isn’t that we don’t have mechanisms in place already such that we need to use the ICC as a new mechanism. The problem is that no one wants to take action so no action gets taken. Adding another powerless agency to the mix isn’t going to help.
Italics off?
repetition does the trick.
Southern Sudan is the current location of the largest percentage of the people fleeing the killings in Nothern Sudan, correct?
No.
Ah, my mistake. The majority end up in Chad. But the 10,000 are to facilitate the resettlement of the areas previously destroyed by the civil war as well as refugees from other areas in the Sudan.
BTW, on further inspection this stregthens my point. The US can push things through the UN only pertaining to areas which are not currently subject to much violence.
So unless there are changes, we can suspect that the UN will get involved in Darfur only after the genocide has succeeded in its aims.
So unless there are changes, we can suspect that the UN will get involved in Darfur only after the genocide has succeeded in its aims.
That’s pretty much an astute observation, so what would you see done differently and how ? and getting back on topic what effect do you envisage Bolton will have on the process?
UN will get involved in Darfur only after the genocide has succeeded in its aims..
It will not be for a lack of trying. You know, there will never be a true international consensus on any given crisis (and this will be a problem that will exist with or without the UN). This is why UN reform must be enacted that removes such things as Security Council vetos, that lowers the bar from “consensus” to the “will of the majority”.
Only a global institution such as a UN has any hope of addressing the majority of the Darfurs in this world. Regional bodies such as NATO or ad hoc coalitions not only still faces the same foot-dragging that afflicts the UN, but will only be able to act selectively and will always be undermined by the suspicion, justified or not, they represent some sort of imperial design. NATO was able to intervene in Kosovo, barely, because Kosovo is in Europe, and in Afganistan because the regional powers did not object, but it would face a great deal of difficulty in other parts of the world.
“Only a global institution such as a UN has any hope of addressing the majority of the Darfurs in this world. Regional bodies such as NATO or ad hoc coalitions not only still faces the same foot-dragging that afflicts the UN, but will only be able to act selectively and will always be undermined by the suspicion, justified or not, they represent some sort of imperial design. NATO was able to intervene in Kosovo, barely, because Kosovo is in Europe, and in Afganistan because the regional powers did not object, but it would face a great deal of difficulty in other parts of the world.”
This doesn’t seem true at all. Darfur continues not because NATO could not act, but because it does not desire to act. The UN does not act because it does not desire to act. There are institutions that could act. The countries behind them prefer not to. No amount of institutional juggling is going to change the fact that important countries like Russia and China and France feel that their best interests are served by keeping the UN from acting. How are you going to push through the kind of reform you are talking about when France especially isn’t going to give up the lest shred of real super-power level importance that it has?
I believe Sebastians position could be distilled as favouring replacement of the UN with an ad-hoc ‘coalition of the willing’ who’s membership would constantly ebb and flow as dictated by the demands of the moment but would always be headed by a resolute and gallant US striding forth bearing the torch of freedom and shining light on such dark areas of the world as it from time to time so chooses. An Al Swearengen philosopy for the modern world.
That certainly beats trying to be the moral authority when everyone else gets to pontificate on what’s moral and what isn’t.
One last point: Assume the ad-hoc approach is, at the moment, better than using the UN.
Using this approach on a long term basis presumes the U.S. will be a perpetual power. Even if you feel this will be the case, there is a great deal of evidence that cannot sustain it’s preeminence, especially when you start thinking in terms of centuries and not decades.
2shoes – You are correct but you can’t expect any self respecting neocon to think such thoughts. It would be tantamount to treason.
I don’t even care if we are always the leader of such coalitions. It might be nice if France stepped up to the plate on smaller more manageable things. But I’m not holding my breath. I defintely agree that there are large number of options which would be better than Europe feeling free to avoid doing practically anything toward world security while constantly engaged in talking carping about it.
Ceding things to the UN presupposes that it will always be a moral power. Hell, it presupposes that it will ever become one. There is a great deal of evidence that nothing can sustain preeminence forever. I’ll just take it 50 or 100 years at a time.
I don’t even care if we are always the leader of such coalitions. It might be nice if France stepped up to the plate on smaller more manageable things.
I’d suspect you might think otherwise, as they may do things in a way that you might not think right. Leadership means taking leadership, not in doing things the way someone else wants. Hell, I think I’m more comfortable with US leadership than French, but truth be told, I’d be far happier with the UN after a few changes are made.
It might be nice if France stepped up to the plate on smaller more manageable things.
Such as in West Africa? Cote d’Ivoire? Ring a bell?
Ceding things to the UN presupposes that it will always be a moral power.
A comment that could be made about the United States…about anyone. But the question of morality is really secondary to this discussion. It’s about setting up a system or framework that ensures the world will be governed peaceably and efficiently, as much as it can. What nations do within that system in terms of “moral behaviour” is really up to them: nothing can guarantee “good behaviour”. The U.S. justice system doesn’t ensure Americans behave well, it just designed to offer as much incentives as possible, and deals with them when those incentives fail.
What many of these UN discussions fail to do is address the matter using the proper timeframes. What we do now should be the laying of a foundation for future centuries of governance. An ad hoc coaliton may be able to deal with an individual crisis, and it may be able to do it quite efficiently on any given day. But looking at it over the longer timeframe, the “ad hoc coalition” as a system is destined to lead to a world where might makes right at best, mass chaos and misery at worst.
I would prefer the rule of law, which however imperfect at the moment, is what the UN represents.
A quick note to thank Chas for responding to my question about the ICC.
I agree that there are a lot of questions in what an ICC would ultimately look like, but if you believe that everyone in the world should be guaranteed a certain minimum level of human rights, then you have to have the process of working out those sorts of problems rather than simply pre-empting them, as Bolton has argued for. Two links of potential interest.
A 02 Bolton speech on the ICC
A bio of Bolton (viewed from the left side)
Here’s the UN’s ICC web page and the list of crimes that would be covered as well as a lot more background info
Bolton was absolutely right about the ICC, which is why Clinton never brought it before the Senate.
Sounds about right to me.
“I would prefer the rule of law, which however imperfect at the moment, is what the UN represents.”
If you say so. The UN strikes me as the worst of legalism without any real respect for law. But your mileage clearly varies.
For those interested, the Bolton quote above comes from a book entitled _Delusions of Grandeur_, from a Cato Institute conference proceedings held in 1996. Aside from the guffaw inducing title (which shouldn”t be blamed on Bolton, the editor was Ted Galen Carpenter), this Bolton quote from the same book is equally amusing
Thanks LJ, again Bolton is spoton.
The first Bolton quote really makes me like him. The second is pretty good two. Were they supposed to be self-evidently ridiculous? I think I’m missing something.
The UN strikes me as the worst of legalism without any real respect for law.
Which law are you referring to?
“Which law are you referring to?”
None, which is rather my point. And their treatment of existing laws, say the treaty against genocide or the NPT, is rather pathetic. Which, again, is my point.
I’m going to assume that you understand the irony of the title _Delusions of Grandeur_. But as for Bolton, he seems (in the second comment) to state exactly what people here have warned against, which is the notion that the UN is only in the right when serves US needs. You may believe that in your heart of hearts, but I don’t think it is a rational way to approach this. As a general principal, ‘the US was always right’ can be refuted with ample historical examples.
Second, the notion that it’s not good to sacrifice American troops to support the UN in carrying out goals yet argue (as I would presume Bolton will when he’s taking his shoe off and pounding the table) that US actions are altruistic and should be viewed in that light (such as democratizing Iraq) seems a bit rich. “Billions for democratization, not one cent for the UN” is the paraphrase that comes to mind.
But my main point is that this is _1996_ that he’s saying this. You may call it prescient, I would simply suggest he’s got a bit of an idée fixe. At least you aren’t arguing that was the ‘old Bolton’
However, it does seem that the free market has appropriately fixed an appropriate value to the book.
You say “there is no law”, then casually slip in some references to…law. Which treaty against genocide do you mean? The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide? How does the UN “disrespect” it? Or the NPT? It seems to be that it is individual nations that are undermining the two you mention, not the UN as an institution. In the case of the latter, Pakistan springs to mind. What, precisely, can the UN do about it when powerful members states like the United States seem willing to forgive transgressions like those of Pakistan and Dr. Khan?
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, this is the fault of execution (the principle of consensus, and the Security Council veto), not of concept (the global institution).
And since you haven’t addressed it, why is the alternative, ad hoc coaltions, preferable over the long term. ie. centuries
In the case of the latter, North Korea would be the prime suspect.
“But as for Bolton, he seems (in the second comment) to state exactly what people here have warned against, which is the notion that the UN is only in the right when serves US needs.”
Not only, but if it regularly against US needs, the US shouldn’t continue supporting it.
“Second, the notion that it’s not good to sacrifice American troops to support the UN in carrying out goals yet argue (as I would presume Bolton will when he’s taking his shoe off and pounding the table) that US actions are altruistic and should be viewed in that light (such as democratizing Iraq) seems a bit rich.”
That comment is about burden sharing. When US troops die the most we get most of the say. Many nations–especially in Europe want lots of say about where US troops under a UN flag get to die. I’m not thrilled with that concept of how the UN ought to work.
That comment is about burden sharing.
I don’t have the publication here, so if you could post some more of the context, I would appreciate it. That was just the blurb that was given in the advertisement for the book, which I took to be representative.
For more breaking Bolton stuff (breaking modifies stuff, not Bolton) here is Clemon’s latest about Waxman’s letter to Shays on Bolton’s role in the Niger Uranium fiasco.
May we live in interesting times.
Bolton
Really all you need to know about the man is that he was a Jesse Helms protege and now he’s a Cheney favourite.
Nuff said. Can him.
“Nuff said. Can him.”
Sort of the opposite of “We wish we could bottle him”.
Not only, but if it regularly against US needs, the US shouldn’t continue supporting it.
I think you meant to say “US interests”, in which case see above, re my distinction between US “interests” (i.e. short-term maximizations of utility) and interests (i.e. long-term optimal strategies). If you really mean that the UN has regularly acted against the US’ needs, would you mind listing them?
I’m not sure about your distinction between needs, ‘interests’ and interests. But the UN has not helped forward US security interests very well. It does much better with organizations like the WTO in forwarding US economic interests or with the WHO in forwarding global health interests (though there are some major lapses). Unfortunately for the UN, both of those could be done with those organizations spun off of the UN.
“You say “there is no law”, then casually slip in some references to…law. Which treaty against genocide do you mean? The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide? How does the UN “disrespect” it? Or the NPT? It seems to be that it is individual nations that are undermining the two you mention, not the UN as an institution.”
The UN plays games with the Genocide Convention by refusing to label clear genocide as genocide in order to avoid the responsibilities of the convention. That is legalism instead of respect for the rule of law.
The UN refuses to enforce the NPT while constantly paying lip service to the idea of non-proliferation. That is legalism instead of respect for the rule of law.
The UN is not a ‘rule of law’ institution. A ‘rule of law’ institution is about applying neutral laws to everyone. The UN has never been about that and it certainly isn’t now.
Your distinction between individual countries and the UN doesn’t make sense from an institutional point of view. You attempt to claim that the UN manages or mitigates conflict between countries AND operates with the rule of law. It does not. If you look at the UN from a rule of law point-of-view (which I contend is silly because it obviously is not a rule of law institution) you would find that the UN facilitates individual country’s abilities to thwart the rule of law. That is an institutional defect if you are attempting to look at it from a rule-of-law point of view.
Sebastion every time you write the word UN try writing “the current concensus of individual governments” instead, this may give you better insight into what kind of an ‘institution’ the UN truly is.
Yes the UN can exhibit institutional behaviour but only at the micro level not the macro level. The UN isn’t in competition with national governments it reflects the current concensus between national governments and if there is no concensus then that is what it reflects. This is not an institutional defect it’s a feature.
I have a good understanding of what kind of institution the UN really is. And contra other people’s opinion on the subject it is NOT an institution to further world peace or protect human rights. And for those who believe that it is, the institutional lack of consensus is not a feature.
“Yes the UN can exhibit institutional behaviour but only at the micro level not the macro level.”
That makes no sense whatsoever. On a macro level, the UN has an institutional bias toward static non-involvement in issues of war and genocide. It also has an institutional bias towards showy pretense of dealing with issues instead of really taking action–see for example what happens when you put Lybia, Syria and the Sudan on the UN Commission for Human Rights; see also UN and the NPT, see also the endless talk about non-genocide in the Sudan.