by von
ANN COULTER, plugging her new book, has something she wants you to know (video):
LAUER: Do you believe everything in the book or do you put some things in there just to cater to your base?
ANN: No, of course I believe everything.
LAUER: On the 9-11 widows, an in particular a group that had been critical of the administration: “These self-obsessed women seem genuinely unaware that 9-11 was an attack on our nation and acted like as if the terrorist attack only happened to them. They believe the entire country was required to marinate in their exquisite personal agony. Apparently, denouncing Bush was part of the closure process.”
And this part is the part I really need to talk to you about: “These broads are millionaires, lionized on TV and in articles about them, reveling in their status as celebrities and stalked by griefparrazies. I have never seen people enjoying their husband’s death so much.” Because they dare to speak out?
COULTER: To speak out using the fact they are widows. This is the left’s doctrine of infallibility. If they have a point to make about the 9-11 commission, about how to fight the war on terrorism, how about sending in somebody we are allowed to respond to. No. No. No. We have to respond to someone who had a family member die. Because then if we respond, oh you are questioning their authenticity.
LAUER: So grieve but grieve quietly?
COULTER: No, the story is an attack on the nation. That requires a foreign policy response.
LAUER: By the way, they also criticized the Clinton administration.
COULTER: Not the ones I am talking about. No, no, no.
LAUER: Yeah they have.
COULTER: Oh no, no, no, no, no. They were cutting commercials for Kerry. They were using their grief to make a political point while preventing anyone from responding.
LAUER: So if you lose a husband, you no longer have the right to have a political point of view?
COULTER: No, but don’t use the fact that you lost a husband as the basis for being able to talk about, while preventing people from responding. Let Matt Lauer make the point. Let Bill Clinton make the point. Don’t put up someone I am not allowed to respond to without questioning the authenticity of their grief.
LAUER: Well apparently you are allowed to respond to them.
COULTER: Yeah, I did….That is the point of liberal infallibility. Of putting up Cindy Sheehan, of putting out these widows, of putting out Joe Wilson. No, no, no. You can’t respond. It’s their doctrine of infallibility. Have someone else make the argument then.
LAUER: What I’m saying is I don’t think they have ever told you, you can’t respond.
COULTER: Look, you are getting testy with me.
LAUER: No. I think it’s a dramatic statement. “These broads are millionaires stalked by stalked by grief-parazzies”? “I have never seen people enjoying their husband’s deaths so much”?
COULTER: Yes, they are all over the news.
LAUER: The book is called “Godless: The Church of Liberalism.” Ann Coulter, always fun to have you here.
As Pogo is to politics, Ann Coulter is to morality: She has met the enemy and it is her. Fitting, then, for her to have named her latest masterwork "Godless." "I have never seen people enjoying their husband’s deaths so much"? I would like to think that this is the kind of thing that permanently ends one’s career, but I fear that it’s wishful thinking.
It’s not just that she’s tactless, insulting, and amoral ("ask me about my book, Matt") — though of course she’s all those things. Nor is she worth the ten minutes of thought it took to compose this post. So let’s use this sorry excuse for a pundit as a teaching exercise: If you want to rob an valid point of any power, poignancy, or relevance, treat it just like Ann Coulter does. Because there’s a valid point to be made, somewhere in her asinine blathering, about how people bestow authority on victims. And how it’s frequently a mistake to do so.
But, thanks to brilliant Ann, no one really cares about that argument. The substance has been effectively concealed. The truly important thing is: "I have never seen people enjoying their husband’s deaths so much." Because that sells books.
Thanks, Ann. You’re a real princess.
Now, let’s all agree never to listen or talk to Ann again. Confirm among ourselves, yet again, that Ann’s an irrelevance: pointless and useless, even in the service of her own cause. A liability of the first order. Because that really would be hell for Ann, wouldn’t it?
UPDATE: Phil writes in comments:
If I didn’t know you better (in an online way, of course), I’d swear you were doing stealth damage-control for the Republicans: "Oh, that Ann Coulter, of course we disavow her! She’s crazy!" Until the next time she gets invited to give the keynote speech at some other big Republican Party shindig. You may not want her, and I may not want her, but the GOP sure does.
Let’s remove any claim that I’m being "stealth[y]." Of course I find Coulter’s public persona to be generally pointless, and her tactics to range from the stupid to the merely evil. It should be no surprise, then, that I want to distance my political agenda from her public persona — and, since my political agenda involves electing Republican moderates, that means (more or less) distancing the Republican party from this walking public disaster.
If folks on the far right want to continue to embrace her, well, there ain’t much that I can do about that. But I can point out that the Republican party (and those who, like me, lean in that direction) includes a much broader swath of the electorate than the likes of Coulter. I can also point out the wide gulf between her and responsible Republicans — and that many of us find Coulter to be frankly disgusting in her current incarnation. Just as (I hope) many on the left find Michael Moore to be an idiot — and to rightfully distance themselves from Moore stupidity and moral incoherence. (I had to shut off Moore’s "Bowling for Columbine" when it became clear that I was going break my TV with one or more hurled objects. What kind of moron equates a peacekeeping mission in Bosnia with a killer gunning down classmates in cold blood in Colorado? Answer: Michael Moore.)
I really don’t understand how she and Malkin can get the attention they do after the books they’ve written. I guess if hate is popular they’ll put it on TV. 2 minutes every morning, or something like that.
Hilzoy: why would we (or anyone with half a brain) even listen to, or give Ann Coulter’s driveling rants a second’s thought in the first place? The woman is less a “pundit” (even given the hideous debasement of that term since the rise of the blogosphere) than a variey of (bad) “insult comedian” who knows there is a steady market for her lame shtick, and never fails to shamelessly plug it. Under the rubric of “political analysis”, of course.
If I didn’t know you better (in an online way, of course), I’d swear you were doing stealth damage-control for the Republicans: “Oh, that Ann Coulter, of course we disavow her! She’s crazy!” Until the next time she gets invited to give the keynote speech at some other big Republican Party shindig. You may not want her, and I may not want her, but the GOP sure does.
Von, are you feeling okay? This is the second post in a row of yours that I mistook for Hilzoy’s until I read the byline.
That’s not a criticism, by the by. And you’re absolutely right on the fact that Ann’s style obscures a valid point: the excessive authority bestowed upon victims, the sympathy clause.
Truth be told, this isn’t exclusive to the victims of tragedies, this is a broader fallacy of the Appeal to Authority kind. But it’s especially effective when employed by victims, because we (rightfully) believe that they deserve our sympathy, and that sympathy transforms itself into credibility, a belief in the notion that because they have experienced a given tragedy, they are uniquely qualified to have an informed opinion on it. This isn’t entirely incorrect: they may, depending on the subject matter and circumstances, have a unique insight that makes their opinion valuable and more credible than someone who has not suffered what they have. This is why, for all of my disagreements with John McCain, I cite him as an authority on the subject of torture: he has endured it, and knows its evil firsthand.
The 9/11 widows are no such authority. The fact that they have lost their husbands to Islamic extremists does not make them an expert opinion on how to respond to said extremism, although it does give them, in my opinion, a higher standing to base their reactions on a need for retribution than does the average American, and I think this is the standpoint from which they are coming: “We lost that which we loved most, and we don’t feel the need to do X for revenge, so perhaps that isn’t so pressing.”
You may agree or disagree with that notion. But it is a valid one to put forward, and Ann’s treatment of it is of a kin with everyone else she has produced: vile, inexcusable, morally bankrupt, and created for the sole purpose of demonizing those who disagree with her irrespective of any other consideration.
You know I’m not a violent persn, buyt I wish Kristen Breitweiser would punch AC in the face.
“This is the second post in a row of yours that I mistook for Hilzoy’s until I read the byline.”
I’m honored. (And I agree totally. Coulter is poison.)
Good to have you posting, Von, but was it really necessary to insult Pogo?
Ted Rall was widely denounced (on one of the many occasions on which he’s been widely denounced) for being uncivil toward “terror widows”, but then I’ve never seen Rall on TV (or the cover of Time). In any case, I don’t think the same rules apply to Coulter. Right-wingers get a pass on such things.
For another example, if a liberal TV personality had taken a Nazi atrocity from WW2 and turned it around to accuse the US soldiers, who were actually the victims, of being the perpetrators, he or she would have been hounded off the air within days. Unbelievably, when Bill O’Reilly does it, he doesn’t even have the decency to apologize, and he’s certainly not going anywhere.
they have as much right to speak out about 9/11 as that screeching ghoul Coulter does. maybe if they added a few more insults and lies to their speeches they could get to go on TV and laugh it up like Ann gets to.
My brother gave up paying attention to Ann Coulter (or speaking her name) for his New Year’s resolution. I’d say we all should follow his lead, except that I’m not sure ignoring hate speech is always the best policy, at least once it’s reached the level that it’s being broadcast nationally.
Good post;good comment by Catsy.
Nah, no Coulter or Coulter-phile bashing. Just that.
Nothing she says really gets to me at this point. It’s the “Ann Coulter, always fun to have you here” part at the end that makes me want to throw up.
except that I’m not sure ignoring hate speech is always the best policy
This is an interesting question, and I’ve always felt laughter and mockery was the best defense, but I am rethinking that in light of some snark someone offered up (and apologies in advance for the Godwin violation), which was something like:
and we all saw how the Berlin cabaret scene really put a dent in the Nazi rise to power.
Thought you might be interested in this article from The BRAD BLOG!
Check out ‘Ann Coulter ‘Lawyers Up’ to Face Felony Voter Fraud Charges’ at:
http://www.BradBlog.com/archives/00002901.htm
I’m pretty jaded about such comments (the enjoyment comment, I mean). I wince a little when I hear something like this and automatically file it as one of those adolescent shocking things people say to make a point, valid or not. It’s what I took Ward Churchill to be doing when he made his morally moronic Eichmann comparison–the point presumably lurking somewhere in the vicinity of his statement was that the US had done bad things and as citizens we all share the blame. Basically Coulter/Churchill are stuck in the mode I was in when I was 14 years old and thought the right way to puncture pretense and hypocrisy was to say the most grotesque thing I could think of that might dramatize my point. The problem is they aren’t 14 years old.
I enjoy linking Coulter and Churchill together–they’d be equally horrified at the thought.
we all saw how the Berlin cabaret scene really put a dent in the Nazi rise to power
That was Peter Cook: “those wonderful Berlin cabarets which did so much to stop the rise of Hitler and prevent the outbreak of the Second World War.”
It’s what I took Ward Churchill to be doing when he made his morally moronic Eichmann comparison
Speaking of Eichmann
Thanks Jon, always nice to know who is casting which pearls in front of me. This was also nice
Among his contemporaries were Michael Howard, Leon Brittan and Kenneth Clarke. “It’s a bit distressing when you find them running the country,” he remarked recently. “They were all so self-important at 20 that you would have thought they’d have grown out of it.”
though the end was sad.
Now, let’s all agree never to listen or talk to Ann again.
Crown Forum, Regnery, Fox News, and the Republican Party all disagree with you, Von, but good luck changing their minds. I’d feel the same way if she spoke for any political cause I wished to be even remotely identified with.
As it is, Ann isn’t the problem. The problem is the people she speaks for and the people who pay her to speak. Direct your indignation at them.
Two things.
First:
“Now, let’s all agree never to listen or talk to Ann again.”
This will not happen because Coulter’s tone and persona are very appealing to a lot of people. Make of that what you will.
Second:
The inclination to give more weight to the thoughts of “victims” is not purely a matter of pity or sympathy. It’s in no small amount also a recognition that their thoughts are unlikely to be held lightly, or for personal advantage, because they have more than a little skin in the game, and not through their own choice. It is, in fact, a form of moral authority, and a legitimate one.
People who support our current foreign policy would apparently like the “jersey girls” to STFU. Sometimes this is expressed politely, even delicately so as not to appear to be a callous ass. Sometimes, as in the case of Coulter, not.
What I have heard Breitweiser et al call for consistently is an honest, thorough, and public examination of what the hell happened. This seems completely reasonable to me.
Thanks –
From DCist, I see that one of our local papers is living up to people’s expectations of it. Here’s an answer to “What are you reading?”:
I’m confident the Examiner’s White House coverage will be fair and balanced.
The fact is, we live in an imperfect world, where it sometimes takes a sympathetic victim to galvanize the public and the government into doing the right thing. Sure, it would be nice if we lived in a perfect world where everyone did the right thing without the need for anyone to make an appeal to emotion, but the way to get there is to start doing the right thing more often, not to simply disregard appeals to emotion.
What’s troubling about Coulter is the mainstreaming of extremist thought. No one invites Ward Churchill on the Today Show to explain his outrageous remarks, but they have no problem giving Ann Coulter air time. It’s not that the Today Show has a right-wing agenda, as far as I can tell, so what the heck is going on here?
I’ve been out of the country for a long time now, so “observing” Anne Coulter is very definitely a theoretical task for me, but her interview reminds me of a lecture that I attended several years ago on international work towards the abolition of the death penalty. A well qualified jurist gave a summary of some rather technical and philosophical aspects of the abolition debate, and when question and answer time came around, the run of the mill heckler stood up to make his point that pedophiles were the worst of the worst, and how would we all feel if our child were molested and killed by one, and that therefore the death penalty needed to be reinstated to deal with such serious criminal problems.
To prove his point, he referred to a now infamous case in Belgium, where several families had lost children in such a context.
The lecturer calmly reminded him that none of the families had called for revenge or the reinstatement of the death penalty (like the 9-11 widows, as Catsy points out ?), and asked just what exactly was HIS justification/motive in doing so ? He blustered, and declared that clearly it was not possible to debate the issue, then stood up and walked out.
(By the way, Oklahoma is now considering extending the death penalty to crimes of pedophilia…)
Good point, Steve. Everyone close your eyes and imagine Matt Lauer saying, “Thanks Ward, it’s always fun to have you here”
I am sure that Coulter blasted Bush for using a daughter of a 9/11 victim in his campaign, or using relatives of victims as guests of SOTU speeches. What, she didn’t?
Oh well.
The problem is not Coulter per se. After all, what she says is not really that much different from what several other right wing commentators say, including the aforementioned O’Reilly, as well as Savage, Limbaugh, Hannity, etc. She just tends to be a little more caustic than the others.
The problem is that all of them have not just an audience, but a fervently loyal audience. Moore does have a following, but many on the left take a lot of what he has to say with a grain of salt.
BTW< I tend to agree that "victims" are overused by both the left and the right, but as inidivduals, or as a group, they still have the rigth to speak out. OT, I recently saw a very moving documentary called "My Child: Mothers of War." It is composed of interviews of mothers who have or had children serving in the military in Iraq. It really doesn't have a political agenda. I saw it because my wife works with a mother of one of the producers and received a copy. If interested, try to find it. They have a web site http://www.mychildthemovie.com.
When it comes to the war, the entire GOP behave like Coulter’s version of the 9/11 widows.
Any critical response and you get “You don’t support the troops!”.
So one side gives up Ann Coulter and the other gives up Michael Moore in exchange.
Maybe we could trade Cynthia MacKinney for Mr. Savage.
O.K. We’re all out. What do we have to give up to decapitate the other 10,000 or so right-wing nutcases running our institutions?
Let me guess. Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, etc.
The Democrats’ demagogue shortage puts us in a bad way.
Let’s remove any claim that I’m being “stealth[y].”
I wouldn’t have phrased Phil’s remarks in the same way (because it’s pointless to speculate on your motives for writing), but the point remains. It’s all very good to wax indignant about Coulter, but Coulter isn’t worth being indignant over. Be indignant instead over the conservative political/media establishment that pays her to speak. Your dispute should be with the GOP and the GOP’s favorite news channel, Fox, who use Coulter to throw meat to the kind of people you don’t want to share your party with–not with a sideshow freak like Ann. If you think Coulter’s a bigger problem than the people who employ her, then, well, I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion.
(And though Moore’s a loudmouth who confuses egomania with principle and half-assed documentaries with crusading for justice, he won’t even be in the same league as Coulter until he starts to regularly call for the deaths of people he dislikes.)
Crooks & Liars: Statement of September 11th Advocates Response to “Godless”
Another interesting point worth making is that the right-wing noise machine and the various ambulatory turnips in the blogosphere who parrot its talking points love to make hay out of Michael Moore and other left-wing extremists, and one of their favorite refrains is pointing out how Moore sat near prominent Democrats at the convention and other similar guilt-by-association moments, as if this was meaningful in any way.
Yet when we point out how intertwined people like Coulter and Savage and Limbaugh are with the Republican establishment, conservatives try to draw a bright line between these clowns and their party.
There’s simply no comparison. But the double standard sure is funny.
Over at Captain’s QuartersBlog there is a post drawing a parallel between Coulter and Ted Rall.
“The problem is that all of them have not just an audience, but a fervently loyal audience. Moore does have a following, but many on the left take a lot of what he has to say with a grain of salt.”
Coulter has a following, but many on the right take a lot of what she has to say with a grain of salt.
Perhaps my only original (and for all I know it isn’t even original) insight into politics is noticing the near universal belief that “The whackos on the other side are much more influential than the whackos on my side.”
I just don’t see a lot of mainstream shows like Today calling up Michael Moore when they want the liberal perspective on something. Yet it’s “fun” to chat with Ann Coulter. What’s it all about?
Perhaps my only original (and for all I know it isn’t even original) insight into politics is noticing the near universal belief that “The whackos on the other side are much more influential than the whackos on my side.”
I don’t think it’s original, but in this case it is, certainly, wrong. Say you compare Ann Coulter to Michael Moore — they both write books. Now compare how often each appears on ostensibly non-partisan news/commentary TV shows.
Now that you’ve used up Michael Moore, who do you offset against Rush Limbaugh? And so on.
Ok, who do you think is going to sell better: bumbling, rambling viciousness, or concise viciousness? Moore puts together good agitprop on film, but his public speaking skills aren’t anything to write home about.
“Now compare how often each appears on ostensibly non-partisan news/commentary TV shows.”
This year or in 2004? I’ll give you 2006, I’m not at all sure about 2004.
And note the context: I was talking about it in the context of ‘taking opinions with a grain of salt’.
The problem you have with Limbaugh is the same problem people like Limbaugh have with Oliver Stone. Both entertain in ways that can mislead the unwary.
I don’t like either of them. The time of prominent conservative entertainers in that vein appears to be now. The time of prominent liberal entertainers in that vein is…well I can’t think of a time when there weren’t quite a few influential liberal entertainers in that vein.
Funny how “It’s entertainment not history!” isn’t always thrilling.
You know, its really time that right leaning citizens STOP bringing up Michael Moore every time they have to address the nut job he/she Coulter. Michael Moore is not even close to having the hatred spewing mouth that Coulter does. OK? No comparison, no need for “equal time spewing.” Just say shes f—ing insane and let it go at that.
You know, its really time that right leaning citizens STOP bringing up Michael Moore every time they have to address the nut job he/she Coulter. Michael Moore is not even close to having the hatred spewing mouth that Coulter does. OK? No comparison, no need for “equal time spewing.” Just say shes f—ing insane and let it go at that.
Stealth damage control? No way. I might’ve read Coulter once since she was fired from National Review, mainly because of her unproductive flame-throwing schtick. Frankly, I see this as criticizing loutish behavior, no matter the political stripe. Ted Rall did the same thing with his 9/11 widows cartoons and they were every bit as repugnant. In this, Rick Moran speaks for me.
Ok, who do you think is going to sell better: bumbling, rambling viciousness, or concise viciousness? Moore puts together good agitprop on film, but his public speaking skills aren’t anything to write home about.
Yeah, that must be it. All the far-left whackos just aren’t as well-spoken as Coulter.
I think you’ve nailed it, Steve. Our wackos are much more well-spoken than yours.
Which is a curse, certainly.
I think you’ve nailed it, Steve. Our wackos are much more well-spoken than yours.
Well, when you have so many of them you are bound to have a few to the far-right (heh) of the bell curve.
Note that I don’t think that does anything for me, personally, or for my politics, that Ann Coulter can string a dozen complete sentences together at will. What I’d prefer is that we lock our crazies and your crazies into a padded stadium with pugil sticks, and let them beat the hell out of each other.
But since “crazies” is highly subjective, this might include far too many people.
Oh, no time limit on that beating the hell out of each other thing. And whether we ought to feed them is something I haven’t come to a decision on.
A *padded* stadium? Is it vitally important that all bodily harm be caused by the sticks and not the environment?
Pugil sticks are padded, JFTR.
Ohhhh. Pardon my ignorance; carry on.
Of course, you could just give them standard-issue nail-studded baseball bats and trashcan lids, as in Escape From New York, but then it’d be all over much more quickly. It’s a matter of preference, I submit.
CB said: In this, Rick Moran speaks for me.
It’s worth reading through some of Rick’s comments to understand why many of us on the left find posts like Rick’s and von’s, while commendable, somewhat irrelevant to Coulter’s actual status in the conservative pantheon.
This was hardly an isolated instance of bad taste for Coulter. She says stuff like this all the time. And yet so many in the “Republican base” will not only defend Coulter, but defend the very remarks at issue. It’s what comes from being raised on Rush – crap like this is par for the course. At least until it comes time to give Democrats another lecture on civility.
The problem you have with Limbaugh is the same problem people like Limbaugh have with Oliver Stone. Both entertain in ways that can mislead the unwary.
Tell me, Sebastian–when did Oliver Stone last interview a sitting Vice President, or, for that matter, any member of an Administration in power? If you can’t tell the difference between a movie director–and not even one who purports to make documentaries, we’re talking Cecil B. DeMille here–and a news commentator who gets Vice Presidents to come to him, then you may as well admit that you see no difference at all between “news,” “opinion,” “propaganda,” and “entertainment.”
In which case, what’s so bad about Coulter, except that she doesn’t entertain you?
Jon Stewart gets all sorts of people on the Daily Show as entertainment. Bill Clinton sought out Hollywood all the time. I know he doesn’t qualify as a sitting vice-president….
In which case, what’s so bad about Coulter, except that she doesn’t entertain you?
Anyone who can say with a straight face that matters of objective science are just a matter of partisan politics is downright stupid and should be laughed out of town.
Jon Stewart gets all sorts of people on the Daily Show as entertainment.
Sure. If he were embarrassingly hateful, he’d be a fair offset to Limbaugh. (Well, not really — I don’t think their audience sizes are comparable — but the comparison wouldn’t be nuts.) But he doesn’t really come into this comparison, because while he’s a partisan liberal, he’s not, as far as I’ve seen, a hate-filled wacko. (And, you know, neither is Moore. But I’m conceding Moore to be pleasant.)
I’d prefer is that we lock our crazies and your crazies into a padded stadium with pugil sticks, and let them beat the hell out of each other.
But since “crazies” is highly subjective, this might include far too many people.
You say that like it’s a bad thing.
Well, depending on how inclusive it is, I have a family reunion coming up.
The point remains that interviews with entertainers do not negate the concept that the views of entertainers can be taken “with a grain of salt” by audiences.
Different types of entertainers work in different ways. Asking me to find an Oliver Stone or Michael Moore interview with a prominent leader is like me asking you to show me when Rush Limbaugh made a deeply misleading movie that grossed $70,000,000 or better in 1991 or a fake documentary which grossed $119,000,000 or better in 2004. I wouldn’t argue that the lack of multi-million dollar movies from Rush makes him a non-influential misleading entertainer. Coulter, Limbaugh, Stone and Moore are all highly misleading, very influential, political entertainers. I’m not personally entertained by any of them.
There’s a difference between crazy and weird. Crazy is the goofballs that piss you off. Weird is the goofballs you treat with amused/affectionate tolerance.
When your crazies are my weird people or vice versa, we just keep swapping off choosing people for the stadium until neither of us wants to continue.
Limbaugh: 15 hours a week, every week.
Moore: 2 hour movie every 4 years.
The idea that Rush is just an “entertainer,” as if he does anything at all that is non-political, is quite silly.
Frankly, I’m bored of the stupid ‘equivalence’ game, but if Slarti wants to keep playing, one league has a rather deeper pool of talent than the other…
I’m not sure exactly what argument is being put forth — is it that the righty wackos are more extreme than the lefty wackos? That they’re nastier? That there are more righty wackos than lefty ones? That the righty ones are more accepted by mainstream republicans than the lefty ones are by mainstream democrats? That they’re more in bed with the leadership? That they get more media exposure?
Eh? I thought I’d stated clearly that we’ve got a superior breed of crazies over here. No contest.
Moore made over $20 million on F911, in case anyone’s interested.
That the righty ones are more accepted by mainstream republicans than the lefty ones are by mainstream democrats?
This, mostly. That Republican wackos can stand up and say filthy, disgusting things that anyone should be ashamed of, and still hobnob with the Republican party leadership. And SH — the point of the interview, as a standard, rather than the making of a successful movie, is that it demonstrates a willingness to be publicly associated with the wacko in question.
Slarti, my bad for the misreading then…
though ‘superior’ is a somewhat malleable term in the context of this topic…
Moore made over $20 million on F911, in case anyone’s interested.
Rush makes $31 million/yr. Funnily enough, not from F911.
AP:
I don’t think Ann Coulter gets on the air because she’s well-spoken. She’s blonde and wears cocktail dresses and she says horrible things, and people seem to like all that. That, and she’s often plugging a horrible book. There are plenty of lefties who speak quite well, but they’re not telegenic and really, let’s face it, they’re nowhere near as hateful and shameless as Coulter and several other rightwingers. The leftwing crazies tend to espouse conspiracy theories that make no sense rather than launching crazy personal attacks on people who would never respond in kind.
I know there’s no point in saying this yet again, but I can’t help myself: Neither Ward Churchill nor Michael Moore is not a spokesperson for the Democratic party in any way, shape or form. Ward Churchill is an obscure academic. Moore is probably not even a registered Democrat; he makes documentaries that explicitly eschew objectivity. I don’t like his movies, so I don’t go to see them. He does not set himself up as a pundit, much less a political leader. And yet, conservatives keep bringing him up.
Ann Coulter’s response to Hillary? Well, before you go criticizing ME, you should look at your own hubby….. HUH? Yeah, that’s real brainy. Sheesh.
Michael Moore does set himself up as a pundit. That is why he calls his movies documentaries.
Ann Coulter isn’t a spokeswoman for the Republican Party.
She was once an aide to Senator Spencer Abraham
I’m still waiting for someone to tell us the exact circumstances under which Michael Moore expressed the wish that people who disagree with him would be beaten up or killed. Or, for that matter, when he expressed the view that someone should assassinate a sitting justice of the Supreme Court.
Documentarians are not pundits. Moore makes movies about social and political issues. These movies have a distinct point of view, which is explicitly not objective or analytical. It’s sloppy filmmaking, in my opinion. But Moore does not discuss or analyze policy matters. He does occasionally decide to endorse a candidate, but then again, so does Bruce Springsteen (and please don’t claim that Springsteen is a pundit because he sings the occasional protest song). It’s all part and parcel of our celebrity-obsessed culture.
Ann Coulter writes books in which (I assume, given the titles) she attacks “liberals” for their political views. She is a political pundit, or would like to be seen as such. She does not, it’s true, have a paid position as a spokesperson for the Republican party — score one for Sebastian! Then again, I haven’t heard any of the talking heads demanding that Republican leaders denounce her hate speech, or linked her in any way to the views of Republican leaders. Moore, on the other hand, is constantly invoked in this way vis-a-vis Democrats.
It’s pointless, I know — the Moore bashers will simply hang their hats on another set of technicalities and semantic games. I have no problem with people disliking him — I don’t like him all that much, myself. But so what? I don’t like a lot of other people, either. I simply tune them out. And I think I should be doing the same with this thread.
(Soon-to-be-former) New Yorker Zuzu on Coulter v. ‘The Jersey Girls’:
Conservatives are not exactly overjoyed at Coulter’s latest.
Guess what movie I just watched?
Oh, yes Mr. Book. I have John Murdock…in mind.
Guess what movie I just watched?
Does it involve telekinetic bug-people and a scenery-chewing Kiefer Southerland?
I link to this “goodbye blogging” post from Armando because of his association with people associated with this site.
Conservatives are not exactly overjoyed at Coulter’s latest.
I’m not entirely sure that Captain Ed and Hugh “I’m brave for coming to NY” Hewitt encompass any reasonably-sized universe of “conservatives.”
Given that Ann Coulter doesn’t represent a great many conservatives, the utility of that counterargument is unclear.
I was thinking last night, though, that pretty much every incidence of a conservative/liberal being excoriated degenerates into a comparison with either Ann Coulter or Michael Moore, which sort of suggests a Godwin’s Law corollary.
Which in turn suggests an open thread. Which in turn suggests another open thread, topic: on the Internet, no one knows you’re ____. My entry: on the Internet, no one know’s you’re Jeff Goldstein.
I think it’s at least as utile as trotting out Ed and Hewitt as, well, whatever you thought they were.
Given that Ann Coulter doesn’t represent a great many conservatives, the utility of that counterargument is unclear.
Keep ridin’ that train, Slarti. You can trot it out the next time she addresses a major conservative or GOP gathering as a featured speaker and see how it sounds.
Next time I have an opportunity to hire Coulter for a speaking engagement, I’ll take that snappy comeback to heart, Phil. Or next time I even consider attending such an event. Or, hell, next time I consider being a Republican again.
I am, however, considering requesting that the RNC refund the $20 I sent them back in 1985. Outside of that, I don’t see much I can do short of forcefully restricting her right of free speech. Or do you have another suggestion?
Slart,
while that last comment is worth a giggle, was it really worth wading through all that verbiage to get to it? And subjecting us to it?
Sorry. I did consider that, but there aren’t any direct links to comments.
Everyone else, take LJ’s wounded psyche as a warning before clicking the link.
It’s not so much my psyche as just a sense of embarassment about people behaving like that.
Sebastian: “The problem you have with Limbaugh is the same problem people like Limbaugh have with Oliver Stone. Both entertain in ways that can mislead the unwary.”
No, the problem we have with Limbaugh is that he spends most of his show, every single day, persuading his listeners that liberals are responsible for absolutely everything wrong with America and indeed the world. That liberals want terrorists to attack America, assuming liberals aren’t plotting to attack America themselves. That “feminazis” want to cut off your penis. And so on. Conversely, he spends the rest of his show trivialising anything that might make the Republican party look bad, like, say, torture. Are we supposed to take eliminationist rhetoric on a near daily basis listened to by tens of millions of people with a grain of salt? Whether or not it’s “entertainment”, it mainstreams violent rhetoric against ideological opponents. It’s very difficult to shrug off someone saying the most effective way to talk to a liberal is with a baseball bat when they’re put on the cover of Time magazine and paraded around the talk shows.
Where is there anything in the work of Oliver Stone, who lets not forget makes relatively niche market fictional films about once every three years, that comes remotely close to the eliminationism and bile of Coulter or Limbaugh?
I link to this “goodbye blogging” post from Armando because of his association with people associated with this site.
That’s a crying shame, Rilkefan.
Coulter, Rush, O’Reilly, Hannity, etc., are spoiled 14-year-olds who have found they can say anything without retribution just to get attention and money. There is no longer a moral baseline beyond which they will not step. A minority of fearful people support them, but they are the loudest so they get the attention.
American neoconservatism is a sociopathic illness.
One point regarding Sebastian’s reference to Oliver Stone making a “deeply misleading movie.” I assume Seb is talking about “JFK.”
Someone said at the time that “JFK” was the worst movie they ever loved. I kind of go along with that. First off: it’s based on real events but turns out to be, in this viewer’s mind, a great riff, not on the event itself, but political paranoia in America on a wide scale and particularly the very real paranoia that followed the assassination in 1963 and the years of paranoia regarding alleged coverups.
The movie touches a nerve of paranoia run amuck. It is not a presentation of the facts of the case; it is a presentation of every crackpot and legitimate theory rattling around in the creeped out American psyche.
Plus, Oliver Stone, whom I hold no brief for, has as his main individual villain in the movie — a Democrat — not to mention the Democrat responsible for the liberal social initiatives of that era.
Imagine if you will the assassination today of a Republican President under similar mysterious circumstances. Imagine, say, three years of “entertainment” about such an event by Rush Limbaugh and the demagogic talk-radio machine today.
I would also like to see a debate between Limbaugh and Sebastian. Subject: “How many of Limbaugh’s utterances does he (Limbaugh)believe are fact and how many does he believe are political theatre?”
Who would walk out of the debate first? Who would return to his studio and tell 20 million listeners that his debate opponent was a RHINO who undermines the Republican effort and, indeed, America itself?
And would Sebastian believe what he heard on the radio the next day? Or is it just entertainment? Twenty million true believers against one guy with a theory and an open mind?
Now, have the same debate with Oliver Stone. What would happen? Nothing.
Thought experiment: What is the overlap between those who believe “JFK” exposed the truth of that event and those who believe every spittle-flecked word Limbaugh utters? Also, how many of that subset wish LBJ had been assassinated, too because of his civil rights and “socialist” agenda?
Facts, schlmacts.
P.S. Coulter is entertainment like Tokyo Rose was a disc jockey. Coulter is entertainment like the anti-gay marriage amendment is a practical joke.
P.P.S.: Be aware, of course, that later today I literally believe I’m going to have two martinis, jump in my Aston Martin, and steal the head of S.P.E.C.T.O.R.’s hot girlfriend.
steal the head of S.P.E.C.T.O.R.’s hot girlfriend.
Phil Spector? That’s just cold…
I should also note, a little less frivolously, that the most famous Tokyo Rose, a woman by the name of Iva Toguri D’Aquino, was convicted of treason despite being cleared by MacArthur’s staff as well as the Justice Department, largely on perjured testimony and was pardoned by Gerald Ford.
I figured someone would do the Phil Spector joke.
LJ, good fact on Ms. D’Aquino. Yet another riff ruined by someone forever seeking out the world’s facticity. Damn.
I thought I should point out that Voltaire’s “Candide” is not accurate in all of its particulars and when Buster Keaton did his own stunts that doesn’t mean his movies are documentaries. 😉 Well, I’m pretty sure.
John Miller:
According to the interview that Coulter gave Tucker Carlson, that was Bush’s job. I do admit to being impressed that Carlson was able to admit to having felt that was wrong, even if it was only to try to give Coulter a chance to pull her foot out of her mouth about the “enjoying their husbands deaths” BS.
Sebastian:
The number of people who claim that Limbaugh is telling the truth in his little daily festival of spin far outnumber those who claim that Stone is doing so in his movies.
KenB:
That’s the bunny.
Sebastian again:
And yet she regurgitates the party’s talking points with incredible frequency and volume.
Slatibartfast:
And yet so many of them are falling over themselves to excuse what she said.
You have anyone in mind, here?
“And yet she regurgitates the party’s talking points with incredible frequency and volume.”
So what does that make her? A wannabe?
“The number of people who claim that Limbaugh is telling the truth in his little daily festival of spin far outnumber those who claim that Stone is doing so in his movies.”
Considering what I’ve heard otherwise intelligent people say about the JFK assassination since the movie I’m not at all sure that is true.
However, in proof that there is in fact a God:
Fafblog’s back!!!
*dances the dance of ever-so-scrutable joy!*
Let me put it this way, Sebastian. Can you understand that it’s hardly comforting to liberals that millions of conservatives find Coulter’s talk of invading Arab countries, killing their leaders and converting them to Christianity, or Rush’s fantasies of an America with only a handful of liberals left on display pour encourager les autres, or Bill O’Reilly’s desire that San Francisco be attacked by terrorists? That such ideas can be considered “a bit of fun” is rather scary.
You have anyone in mind, here?
Well, let’s put it this way. In the past couple days, I’ve seen a half-dozen or so right-wing blogs condemn Coulter’s remarks. And then the comments section is split about 50-50 between those who agree and those who think that Coulter was exactly right, dammit, and those widows are a bunch of Kerry-loving witches.
There seems to be substantial support for Coulter’s point of view, even though the bloggers I respect have been commendably responsible. I’m not just cherry-picking one or two comments when I say this.
“That such ideas can be considered “a bit of fun” is rather scary. ”
Of course I can understand it. It is the same reason why I’m not particularly thrilled about the excuse “pandering for domestic consumption” when Rafsanjani and Ahmadinejad talk about wiping Israel off the map in the context of the Iranian nuclear program.
Sebastian,
But the difference lies in the fact that I think your average right type has more influence on the political discourse in the US than the average left type who might suggest that it is pandering for domestic consumption has over political discourse in Iran…
“Of course I can understand it. It is the same reason why I’m not particularly thrilled about the excuse “pandering for domestic consumption” when Rafsanjani and Ahmadinejad talk about wiping Israel off the map in the context of the Iranian nuclear program.”
Hey, you don’t have to convince me on that front. Ahmadinejad scares the bejeesus out of me.
“But the difference lies in the fact that I think your average right type has more influence on the political discourse in the US than the average left type who might suggest that it is pandering for domestic consumption has over political discourse in Iran…”
I’m not worried about the average left type who says something about Ahmadinejad. I’m worried about Ahmadinejad. If you think Bush is influenced by Rush I guess you can worry. I don’t think he is so while I’m worried about Rush (and Coulter and Moore and Stone) I’m not nearly as worried as I am about Ahmadinejad.
‘m not worried about the average left type who says something about Ahmadinejad. I’m worried about Ahmadinejad. If you think Bush is influenced by Rush I guess you can worry.
If that’s the case, they, as I see it, your attempt at creating an equivalency falls flat. When I invoke (if I have said it, I actually don’t know if I have) the political pressures that Ahmadinejad is responding to, I promise you I am under no illusion that he is really a nice guy and if he just didn’t have those darn extremists pushing him, he’d probably be making matzo balls for Passover. On the other hand, when people on the right excuse Coulter with a notion that she’s just having a ‘bit of fun’, they are suggesting that what Coulter says and does is not what she thinks and believes.
Also, one can be worried about Ahmadinejad while simultaneously attempting to understand the forces that shape and amplify that message. Suggesting that we deal with some of the conditions that allow him to pander for domestic consumption is not the same as giving Coulter (or Rush or Hannity or O’Reilly) a pass or saying they are just have a bit o’ (rightwing) fun™.
World-O-Crap manages to broadside both Coulter and Russert on this one. It’s true enough that it’s almost not funny…
If you think Bush is influenced by Rush I guess you can worry.
Actually I do think Bush is influenced by Rush. How could he not be? Limbaugh has an audience of millions, the vast majority of whom are Republican voters. Surely Bush is concerned about someone who has that much influence on his base.
Slartibartfast:
Why, yes, I do. Michelle Malkin for one; and Whither The Fool? for a second (and he managed to sneak in some whinging about mean ol’ libruls not being nice to Trent Lott, Rush Limbaugh, Bill Bennett and Dan Quayle while he was at it); Seetness & Light; Flopping Aces; Confederate Yankee; Mark in Mexico; and a sizable number of other blogs linked from the Captain’s Quarters blog entry in question, as well as a number of the people leaving comments to that entry.
Sebastian:
If the commentary on her on the blogs I cited in my reply to Slarti is anything to judge by, it makes her a hero to the right.
Ah, I thought maybe you had someone in mind that comments here.
But the difference lies in the fact that I think your average right type has more influence on the political discourse in the US than the average left type who might suggest that it is pandering for domestic consumption has over political discourse in Iran…
The average lefty??? Moi??? Ah well, I guess it’s a step up from eurotrash.
Sebastian, if someone had suggested that all precautions had to be taken to make sure Ann Coulter would never be near a Supreme Court justice I might have said that she was mainly pandering for rightwing consumption. If I was inclined to discuss these kind of internal US affairs, which I am usually not.
The discussion wasn’t about wether Ahmadinejad was right in saying that (AFAIK nobody condoned the statement), but about wether he would follow up on the statement. People weren’t defening what he said, but were assessing the real-time danger.
Anyone want to defend Rush’s comparison of the putative liberal response to Haditha with gang rape? Or even to equate it with any similarly positioned commentator on the left?
Dutch,
apologies for any collateral damage from my comment, it sounded like Sebastian was attributing the pandering for domestic consumption thought to the left rather than any particular person, and I didn’t want to say ‘hey it was just one of those crazed european socialists who thinks soccer is called football’ ;^)
‘hey it was just one of those crazed european socialists who thinks soccer is called football’
For the next few weeks, it bloody well is!
Given that I pay approximately equal attention to Limbaugh and Coulter (some number, epsilon, defined as smaller even than my attention span), no. Hadn’t seen it, and am not interested in it.
If you know someone who listens to Rush, ask them. I actually don’t know anyone who does, and admits to it.
LJ: I just quoted from yours because I couldn’t find Sebastians comment as quick as yours :). I think he said in another thread that he ment me when he quoted about that incidence, so I now assume he thinks about me whenever he mentions it.
US football… hmmm… isn’t that the adaption of rugby that has players carrying around so much protection that they need 10 minutes of rest after every two minutes of action? :^)
Unfortunately I am married to someone who hates to watch sport :(. We compromise on me just watching the Dutch team, so next sunday I will have the whole family, including British in-laws, suffer *if* their tvchannel broadcasts the game… I did buy everybody a new orange football shirt, so they’ll at least look the part. It is hard to find a street without orange flags these days 🙂
Our youngsters (under 21) actually became European Champions this week – for the first time in our history.
I actually don’t know anyone who does, and admits to it.
Obviously, this is why Cheney showed up there…
I actually don’t know anyone who does, and admits to it.
Hell, even I do…
Slartibartfast I actually don’t know anyone who does [listen to Rush Limbaugh], and admits to it.
Anarch: Hell, even I do…
Me WHY???
Isn’t life irritating enough already?
If not, we can probably make it so …
This is a surprise why?
Jeepers, you could have danced when I announced it, but no.
dr ngo: Me WHY???
Because some of them are my relatives (I think; don’t know if they still listen to him, actually), some of them are my friends, some of them have been my students, and for all them there’s been a tacit agreement that we never EVER talk about it so as not to spoil whatever relationships we have.
Gary: This is a surprise why?
No offense, Gary, but when you ask a question that stupid and back it up with your subsequent post, you don’t really deserve an answer.
So…have you asked them if they’ll defend the gang-rape thing? Seems like you have greater access to the Limbaugh fan-base than I do.
“No offense, Gary, but when you ask a question that stupid and back it up with your subsequent post, you don’t really deserve an answer.”
Hmm?
Kind of a trivial thing, but why are you calling me “that stupid” and saying I don’t deserve an answer for mildly suggesting that I might be trusted on the question in question?
Admittedly, it was bragging slightly for me to point out that I announced the return in advance, but, still, this seems a tad rude for no particular reason.
Not that I want to get into a thing about it. I’m just rather puzzled, in a very low-key way. And “that stupid” seems a bit unnecessarily, well, whatever.
“Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi was the world’s most unhinged lunatic. He’s dead now, so that moves Ann Coulter up to first place.”
–David Letterman (June 9, 2006)
Actually, since Gary was kind enough to teach me how to link things, I really oughta use it…
So…have you asked them if they’ll defend the gang-rape thing? Seems like you have greater access to the Limbaugh fan-base than I do.
As I said, my relationships with these people is contingent upon me never talking about Limbaugh with them.
If you know someone who listens to Rush, ask them. I actually don’t know anyone who does, and admits to it.
You know Charles Bird, at least in a limited sense.
I know him equally well as Anarch does, do he’s free to ask CB himself. Which he kind of did, without naming names.
I know him equally well as Anarch does, do he’s free to ask CB himself. Which he kind of did, without naming names.
I actually didn’t (or didn’t intend to) because I thought CB said he no longer listened to Limbaugh. Anyway, I was only referring to relationships IRL, not online.
Anyway, I was only referring to relationships IRL, not online.
You guys got relationships IRL? Gee, I better get on the stick…
Digby’s No True
ScotsConservative theory gets another boost.Looks as if it’s more of a demonstration of damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
And, actually, I think Ted Rall invented the smearing of 9-11 widows, not Rush. But Rall is no true liberal, probably.
On the contrary. He is indeed a liberal. He’s also a real jerk.
Um, well, others disagree.
What happened there is confusion about what ‘liberal’ means. Conservatives tend to use it as if it were parallel to ‘conservative’ — you can be a moderate conservative or an extremist conservative, so you can be a moderate liberal or an extremist liberal. Leftists tend to use it to denote only moderate leftists, using progressive or far-left to denote those at the extremes of the spectrum.
Someone on the right saying Coulter isn’t a conservative is disowning her — saying that they aren’t on the same side. Someone, like Gary, on the left, saying that Rall isn’t a liberal is saying that he isn’t a moderate leftist, not that he’s not on the left. I’d agree both with Gary that Rall isn’t a liberal, and with what I assume Jeff Eaton means by saying Rall’s a liberal: that although he’s a jerk, he is on the left politically, and we can’t truly disown him by saying he isn’t roughly on our side of the political spectrum.
Which is pretty much the same as what’s happening over here on the Right: others on the Right are disowning Coulter by saying she’s not a Conservative; in effect they’re saying (I believe Ace said this almost verbatim): if Coulter is a Conservative, I am not a Conservative, and vice versa.
That they’re saying so using imprecise language isn’t all that remarkable, IMO.
No, my point was that Gary wasn’t disowning Rall by saying ‘not a liberal’ — disowning him perhaps as individually unpleasant, but saying ‘not a liberal’ isn’t the same, for a leftist, as saying ‘not on my side’. For a conservative to say, ‘not a conservative’, that’s a claim not to be politically associated with her.
For a conservative to say, ‘not a conservative’, that’s a claim not to be politically associated with her.
I think this is an overgeneralization, although it may accurately describe some of the Coulter reaction. “Conservative” and “Right(ist)” aren’t synonymous any more than are “liberal” and “Left(ist)”.
Anyway, all of those terms are excessively overloaded and hinder communication as much as they help. We need a blogosphere standards organization that will come up with an official political spectrum and the corresponding official terms, so that we can all speak with more precision.
There’s lots of conservatives I’m not politically associated with, so I’m even more unclear as to what your point is than I was last time I posted a comment. People distance themselves from those they disagree with in a variety of ways.
Me, I couldn’t care less where Coulter stands, politically. She doesn’t speak for me. Whether she’s Conservative, or a Rightist, or whatever sort of label you’d like to paste on her, is irrelevant.
I think they hinder communications a great deal more than they help.
“No, my point was that Gary wasn’t disowning Rall by saying ‘not a liberal’ — disowning him perhaps as individually unpleasant, but saying ‘not a liberal’ isn’t the same, for a leftist, as saying ‘not on my side’.”
That is pretty clearly wrong. The move by liberals and conservatives in saying that Rall and Coulter are not liberal or conservative is precisely the same. Both are saying “My group is more to the center than them” with the implied caveat–though on the same side of the overall left-right continuum. Only an idiot would deny that if you are using a binary scale Rall would be on the Left and Coulter would be on the Right. When conservatives or liberals say that Rall and Coulter are not “of them” they are denying a binary right-left and saying that Rall and Coulter are more on the extremes than the speakers are.
When conservatives or liberals say that Rall and Coulter are not “of them” they are denying a binary right-left and saying that Rall and Coulter are more on the extremes than the speakers are.
Maybe I don’t understand conservative-speak then. What’s the word for ‘person on the right who’s too far right to be called a conservative’, in the same fashion that Rall is a progressive rather than a liberal? I can’t think of when I’ve seen such a word used.
If you’re seeing labels as only having two dimensions (right, left) I think we’ve discovered the nature of the problem.
I can see that there could be someone of approximately the same political persuasion as me who’s nonetheless orders of magnitude more of a flaming asshole (which, I admit, may stagger the imagination). I’d tend to distance myself from such a person’s point of view in that case as well.
Can I say asshole, here?
Authoritarian cultist?
Perhaps, Sebastian. If we were to draw a giant chalk line down the nation’s demographics and call one side ‘liberal’, the other side ‘conservative,’ I don’t think anyone would have any arguments about which side of the line Rall and Coulter fall on. There are, of course, arguments about whether they represent the ‘extremes’ or the ‘cores’ of their respective camps.
I understand that you have no interest in Coulter — I nave no interest in Rall. But our respective views on those personalities can’t change the nature of their positions within the general political circles we roost in.
The difference, I think, lies in relative spheres of influence that both Rall and Coulter have. Disowning Rall, pretending that he’s some sort of unknown loony off in the corner, is obviously disingenuous. But pretending that Coulter is not a far MORE influential and widely accepted conservative spokeswoman and punded is simply impossible without lying. That she has gone this long, said so many tremendously offensive and violent things while maintaining such a strong base of fans, does reflect negatively on ‘mainstream conservatism.’
A clarification. I am not suggesting that Rall somehow has less responsibility to behave himself, or that Coulter should be held to a harsher standard than Rall because she sells more books.
And I do agree that the ‘spectrum’ view of politics, with the moderates in the middle and verious levels of conviction spreading off to the right and left, is deeply and fundamentally flawed. It’s a big part of the problem, and more than a few pundits and writers exploit that fact, to their own profit and the nation’s detriment.
Do you suppose Jay Leno will give Rall equal time tonight because he’s having Coulter on?
Only if Rall wears a cocktail dress.
I’d watch that.
“But pretending that Coulter is not a far MORE influential”
What do you mean by “influential”? Sells more books? I’ll grant you. More likely to change policy that would not otherwise have gone his/her way? I doubt it. More representative of his/her ‘side’? No.
A poll would find far, far more Republicans who had heard of and approved of Coulter than liberals who had heard of and approved of Rall? Yes.
I meant Democrats for liberals there — I was looking for an unambiguously definable group on each side, but can’t type straight.
More likely to ‘change’ policy? By that standard, we can say that no pundit is influental, as none have the ability to vote directly on pending legislation. What I meant by ‘influential’ is that she is read and listened to by a group of people orders of magnitude larger than Rall ever has been or (likely) will be. She is an influential writer in the same way that Chomsky is an influential writer — the things that she says help shape discourse, and help shape the lenses through which her approving readers perceive our nation’s ideological landscape. She is certainly no high-falutin’ intellectual, but denying her reach, like that of Rush Limbaugh’s or Jesse Jackson’s is a little odd.
If you don’t move in the same circles with the people who nod approvingly at Coulter, it’s a credit to you. The level of heated dialogue in the Conservative blog circles is a small indication of her reach, though. If anyone else had made this comment, they would’ve been dismissed as irrelevant without a further word. Only Coulter’s reach and influence forced a real reckoning. I’ve been very encouraged by the number of conservatives who finally felt she crossed a line in this case, though it was distressing that her other statements (saying McVeigh should’ve blown up the Times, etc etc) were excusable.
Lauer should have said, “You are disgusting.”
Coulter’s basic message has nothing to do with policy – her basic argument is that the real problem in this country is liberals. Hating liberals may or may not be a core conservative policy value, and may not serve to get legislation passed, but boy howdy, a whole s**tload of conservatives in this country really hate liberals. I guess rather than a substantive conservative policy plank, hating liberals is more like an extremely popular and widespread conservative hobby, like golf, say, and Ann Coulter is the current Tiger Woods of liberal-hating.
My point is that it doesn’t really matter that she doesn’t influence “policy” per se – she is in front of as many people as Woods, but instead of selling Buicks, she’s selling the idea that liberals are communist traitors who want this country to fall and American servicemen to die.
Sebastian:
I have to disagree with you on this – the sheer volume of people who have posted defenses of Coulter stating “She may not have said it nicely, but she was still right” is growing on a daily basis. I saw no such groundswell of support for Rall – nor, before people started citing his cartoon in an attempt to draw an equivalency between him and Coulter, do I remember having heard of the cartoon which got him in trouble.
To be fair, I saw quite a bit of measured support for the substance of Rall’s cartoon, laced with objections to the way in which the message was delivered.
I saw quite a bit of support for Rall so I’m going to have to disagree with you.
I really hate to ask this, but after some months of seeing Rall appear in various arguments, and inferring that he/she/it is a liberal who said or did something idiotic, and not wanting to derail discussion by asking, who? I am now going to ask: who is Rall? and what did it do?
Oh, I think there’s no question that Coulter is more tightly tied in with the popular radio-pundits and such than Rall ever was, although Rall was for a long time widely syndicated. I believe Hannity, Limbaugh and probably a few others still have her on when possible.
Rall had his own cheering section, but I doubt it’s anywhere near as big. For me, though, the integral of disturbing over the respective populations is about the same. Subjective, I know.
All of that said, I think Coulter’s primary function is to piss people off. It’s about the same relationship with real political debate as professional wrestling bears to the real thing. With the same attendant audience participation and asymmetry of popularity.
Sebastian:
Then you can no doubt provide some names, the way I provided names of people supporting Coulter?
Slartibartfast:
Very possibly, but if so, it’s in order to introduce right-wing talking points that can then be repeated by others. At least if the sheer volume of posts to the blogosphere asking why people are focusing on the “enjoying their husbands’ deaths” twaddle, instead of her argument that the left somehow have a monopoly on trying to shield itself from criticism by waving the bloody shirt, are anything to judge by.
Looks as if it’s more of a demonstration of damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
Hardly. If anything, it’s a demonstration of “damned since you didn’t“. It’s nice that more people are now willing to stand against her — although as several commenters have noted, supporters for her views (and maybe her personally) still exist and in alarming numbers — but it would have been nicer had they done so when she’d started her bile-filled rants instead of waiting eight years to throw a penalty flag.
Basically, Rall is a left-of-center political cartoonist and blogger who has been widely syndicated. I’m not sure where his circulation is at now, but I see his stuff in Salon now and then when I swing by.
His stuff has always struck me as not-particularly-witty, and a little predictable. A few years ago, he did a single strip about the ‘Terror Widows’ that cast them as vacuous talking heads who’d hit an insurance windfall and were being eaten up by an adoring media.
Since the format was a bit different (political cartoon rather than book or on-air-interview) I think the effect was a bit more muted. There was never as direct a statement as Coulter’s “witches” reference, or her “they’re enjoying their husbands’ deaths” comment. But many felt it was in terribly bad taste, and a lot of conservative bloggers held it up as an example of liberals despising ma, pa, apple pie, and so on. There were those who defended him, too, as having made an important point, but I think that Rall’s relatively long track record of bitter snarking via his comic meant that those inclined to call him on the carpet had pretty much stopped reading.
I, too, only heard about that mini-controversy in retrospect. I tend to lean towards von’s interperetation: there is an important point to be made, but Rall was unwilling to focus on it and went for barbed cheap shots, instead. Coulter, in my opinion, went further with her nasty comments and attacks, but the difference was quantitative rather than qualitative.
Possibly that, along with making lots of money from book sales.
As for Rall’s repugnant pieces, I think his series on Pat Tillman was just as bad. I’d link to the original comic, but apparently the archives only go back a couple of months.
I have mixed feelings about that. On the one hand, the evidence is gone. On the other, think of how many pixels that frees up for OW archives.
“Then you can no doubt provide some names, the way I provided names of people supporting Coulter?”
No, I’m not particularly interested in scouring the world for the support I saw. If you suspect I’m an unreliable narrator I’m frankly not interested enough to disabuse you of that notion on this issue. The reason Rall was brought up instead of the wildly popular (which is apparently identical to saying influential) Michael Moore was because of the almost identical way in which Rall and Coulter unfairly maligned 9/11 widows.
I’m happy to call that Rall piece repellent. It’s not much worse though than the way the admin and the right used Tillman.
I think I remember some of those strips at the time — the jist, if I remember them correctly, was that Tillman was a brainless Rambo-type, yes? Ironic, as more and more of the details about Tillman’s life and views come out. He seemed to be the antithesis of the stereotype Rall painted.
I was a true-blue (red?) dyed in the wool republican campaign volunteer during the Clinton era. One of the primary factors in my eventual departure was the the teeming multitude of conservative commentators, writers, cartoonists, and speakers that swam in the same acid bath that Rall frequents. I left the scene before Coulter really ascended, and her emergence cemented for me the conviction that the ‘party ideology’ had eclipsed any specific principles for many of the people I’d once worked with, supported, and admired.
If we go back far enough, we can trot out the old Vince Foster fun. It took all of a few minutes for people to start publishing op-eds, cartoons, and vitriolic screeds stating flat out that the President of the United States had had a friend of his killed in cold blood. Even today, it’s an article of faith among the freeper crowd. I haven’t seen anywhere near as much of this on the Left, though it could be that I tend to shy away from any of the ‘true believer’ political camps these days. It sure seems, though, that the hateful screeds from the right tend to come from much higher visibility sources, folks with much greater reach and (yes) influence.
Eventually, though, the ‘they did it first’ ping-pong has to stop and each individual (regardless of political ideology) has to be held responsible for their own statements, as well as the statements they’ve chosen to defend and support. I think it’s abundantly clear that you don’t support or condone the kind of bile Coulter dispenses, and as I said that’s a credit to you. It’s sobering to see how many people do, though, and how many people have for years when even uglier things were said.
Well, I think that many people have a certain hysteresis about such things. Myself included, of course. I think many people tend to circle the wagons, so to speak, and make allowances for those who have a certain amount of agreement with them, even if their mode of expression is repugnant. At some point, a threshold is passed, and then a move is made to ensure you’re not associated with that person. I’m much like this in the rest of life, too: I tend to let clutter build up for a while, and then it’s time to clean house.
Of course, this is all based on about fifteen seconds’ worth of thought, so it’s probably complete crap.
Pretty good analysis, I’d say, of human nature and how it relates to this kind of thing.
At some point, a threshold is passed, and then a move is made to ensure you’re not associated with that person.
I tend to agree with that thesis, I’d’ve just liked the threshhold to have been passed when Coulter started wishing extermination on her political foes. For myself, I’d certainly hope that if anyone on the left said anything as vile as Coulter (or Limbaugh or Malkin or Savage or any of a number of other conservative commenters) that I’d react — viscerally as well as cerebrally — to dissociate myself with them as soon as damn well possible.* I’m happy enough, sorta, that it’s happening now (although the invocations of No True Conservative grate) but the delay speaks poorly of her erstwhile supporters… and worse yet of her current ones.
* I didn’t really do so with Rall because I wasn’t really aware of him until the fiascos in question, so there was no “But he’s on my team!” reaction to counteract.
“that it’s happening now (although the invocations of No True Conservative grate) but the delay speaks poorly of her erstwhile supporters… ”
Hmm. But no one here for instance supported her even two or three years ago. So unless you think that we are all really weird conservatives….
Sebastian:
Whereas all I had to do to see the right’s support for Coulter was click a few links.
Hmm. But no one here for instance supported her even two or three years ago. So unless you think that we are all really weird conservatives….
You can’t have it both ways. In various threads, you have invoked a variety of people who you feel liberals support, but who no one here particularly supports. In fact, you have, at least on one occasion, accepted points that Coulter made about McCarthy, and I think I read you saying something a few years ago about the equivalent of Coulter being Bill Moyers(!) (but perhaps that was on another board)
So unless you think that we are all really weird conservatives….
I generally do, yes — in a good way, and I mean that with utmost sincerity — which is why I hang out here. I’d’ve thought that was obvious, but apparently not.
I don’t think Coulter is serious. I got the feeling Rall is. But the latter is absent from any discourse I’m familiar with.
“You can’t have it both ways. In various threads, you have invoked a variety of people who you feel liberals support, but who no one here particularly supports.”
I can’t have it both ways? Why not? Let me eat cake! 🙂
I don’t typically tar anyone with Rall and I think the main lesson of Ward Churchill is that the screening process for becoming a professor might be broken. When I talk about Michael Moore I suggest that he might represent a troubling pacifistic strain of the Democratic Party. When you talk about Coulter are you worried that too many Republicans secretly believe that 9/11 widows wanted their husbands to die?
OTOH…
But no one here for instance supported her even two or three years ago.
a) That’s not true AFAIK; no front-page posters supported her that I recall, but there were several commenters who did.
b) You say this like literally dozens of other conservative sites, including many on ObWi’s blogroll, weren’t rife with Coulter supporters two or three years ago. Heck, I’m fairly sure that one could still find decent levels of Coulter support on at least one blogrolled site, though I’m loathe to actually verify this.
“When I talk about Michael Moore I suggest that he might represent a troubling pacifistic strain of the Democratic Party.”
Moore supported General Clark last time around…
. . . others on the Right are disowning Coulter by saying she’s not a Conservative; in effect they’re saying (I believe Ace said this almost verbatim): if Coulter is a Conservative, I am not a Conservative, and vice versa . . .
Ace? The same Ace who took the time to smear Michael Berg as a morally vacuous human being for stating that he felt as badly for Zarqaw’s family as people probably had felt for him? I’d think he’d be her goddamned press agent. He’s about as slimy, and doesn’t even have the advantage of decent legs.
When you talk about Coulter are you worried that too many Republicans secretly believe that 9/11 widows wanted their husbands to die?
no, I’m worried you still think Bill Moyers and Coulter are equivalents.
Of course, don’t take our word for the fact that there are a number of conservatives who still support Coulter. I think this is a conservative leaning website, so I feel certain he has a lot more conservative friends than I do.
Lets go over the Moyers quote shall we?
“They measure America only by their place on the material spectrum and they bask in the company of the new corporate aristocracy, as privileged a class as we have seen since the plantation owners of antebellum America and the court of Louis IV. What I can’t explain is the rage of the counter-revolutionaries to dismantle every last brick of the social contract.”
Conservatives as slaveowners. Thanks Bill. Every last brick of the social contract if we don’t agree with you? Great.
You support the conservatives/slaveowners metaphor?
“Their stated and open aim is to change how America is governed – to strip from government all its functions except those that reward their rich and privileged benefactors”
I’ll repeat what I said in the thread–Really, that is their stated aim? I wasn’t even aware that was a hidden aim.
“More recently, in commenting on the fiscal crisis in the states and its affect on schools and poor people, Norquist said, “I hope one of them” – one of the states – “goes bankrupt.” So much for compassionate conservatism. But at least Norquist says what he means and means what he says. The White House pursues the same homicidal dream without saying so.”
Homicide by school voucher. Rove is Brill-Yant.
“That concentration in the production of goods may sometimes be useful and efficient, but monopoly over the dissemination of ideas is evil.”
I kind of like my response to that one: “Since when do conservatives have anything near a monopoly over the dissemination of ideas? It isn’t as if Moyers had been dragged off his PUBLIC FUNDED tv show in chains and thrown into a gulag.”
Surely Bill Moyers counts as a mainstream liberal (not a leftist). Glad to see mainstream liberals avoid misleading and over-the-top rhetoric.
Since my comments were made with respect to her book “Treason” (in which she goes way over the top by suggesting that liberals have betrayed the country with multiculturalism) I stand by the parallel between her ridiculous claims in that book and Moyers as quoted.
Sebastian, I think that there’s a good deal of hyperbole in Moyers’ statements, specifically in his slathering of all conservatives with accusations that I (personally) think only apply to a very few.
This sort of broad-brush statement, though, is part and parcel of conservative op-ed. That liberals and even moderate Democrats are willing murderers is an article of faith in pro life circles, for example.
Coulter ratchets this level of rhetoric up a notch, however. Since you’ve said before that you don’t really listen to her much, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you’ve missed some of her doosies. She has a particular fondness for wishing death upon her political enemies. The New York Times? Should’ve been killed by McVeigh. Muslim leaders? Kill ’em. Liberal court justices? It’s about time someone offed a few.
She also continually reiterates, in interviews and columns, that she means exactly what she says and is not being taken out of context. This is not a minor detail — when given opportunities to clarify her inflammitory statements, she reiterates them rather than qualifying. She pairs this rhetoric with a tremendous laziness; her columns and books are so notoriously badly sourced that she makes Michael Moore look like the Encyclopedia Brittanica.
Even when she’s not calling for death, she’s wallowing in ad homenim. Not just ‘overwrought comparisons,’ but lazy, pointless thrashing. Like the famous column that got her bumped from the Post, in which she spent several paragraphs of convention coverage explaining that liberal women were ugly and conservative women were cute.
I’ll be honest — I didn’t find this particular outburst of hers that bad. Amusingly enough, the fact that conservatives have fixed on this incident does give credence to the idea that victims of disasters are ‘untouchable,’ but it tends to poke holes in the ‘liberals are responsible for it’ corollary.
I’ll agree that Moyers’ statements were hyperbole, but I fail to see how they are comparable to Coulter’s day-in day-out rhetoric. As you said, the Rall/Coulter comparison is apt because they commented on the same subject at different times. If you’re trying to argue for ‘rhetoric parity,’ you’re going to have to dig a lot deeper in the sludge-barrel than Moyers.
Um. Just a quick note on grammar: Stating that “X is the best example of [feature A] since Y and Z” is not the same as saying “X is precisely the same as Y and Z.” It’s stating that they all share a particular feature. (Obviously, what one chooses as one’s Y and one’s Z can be steered towards a particular rhetorical effect.)
Sebastian,
“When you talk about Coulter are you worried that too many Republicans secretly believe that 9/11 widows wanted their husbands to die? ”
No, I worry that too many Republicans secretly believe all (and yes, I mean all) Democrats are traitors. That they believe Democrats deserve nothing other than being put to death. That the eliminationist talk by Coulter, and Limbaugh, and Savage and others on the Republican side is not really for “entertainment” (though if millions of Republicans find that sort of talk entertaining, it is a different, but also scary, commentary on them), but rather speaking to their true desires. And as was made several times earlier in this thread, this type of eliminationist fantasy rhetoric is totally lacking among Democrats with any level of visibility.
I know you do not feel that way, which is why I am happy to be part of this community. But based upon the type of rhetoric out there, and the popularity of that rhetoric, I worry that you are a minority in your party.
Sebastian, I was curious for some context on a few of those quotes and did some googling. I was particular curious that you cut one of the most inflammitory quotes (“Conservatives are slave-owners!”) off in mid-sentence. It’s worth it for a bit of clarification:
“Many people are nostalgic for a golden age. These people seem to long for the Gilded Age. That I can grasp. They measure America only by their place on the material spectrum and they bask in the company of the new corporate aristocracy.”
It is that aristocracy (not the mainstream conservatives who ‘bask in their company’) that is described as being ‘just as privileged’ as plantation owners or French courtiers. The quote may hintat the connection of slavery, but the mention of Louis IV seems to make it doubly clear that he is conjouring up images of material wealth and luxury, not whips and chains. While they are certainly strong words, they seem carefully measured. Certainly moreso than Ann’s oft-repeated and oft-reiterated wishes for death and blanket accusations of treason, murder, etc.
By this I don’t mean to defend hyperbole. Rather, I want to point out that suggesting he compared ‘conservatives to slaveholders’ is either a mistake on your part due to quick-reading, or a disingenuous distortion. I know you well enough from this blog to assume that it was the former and not the latter. 🙂
Sorry, I should have included the link of the speech from which Sebastian takes his excerpt. I leave it to the commentariat to determine for themselves if this speech, given live without the benefit of post delivery editing can appropriately be compared with a book which supposedly underwent an editing process yet is rife with factual errors.
Hmmm…choices are: Michael Berg doesn’t feel sorry for Zarq’s family, and he doesn’t think anyone feels bad for him, or Berg does feel bad for the family of a guy who’s on tape sawing off the head of his own SON, for crying out loud, whcih makes him…you tell me. Maybe Berg feels sorry for the family of Zarq for being related to such a poor excuse for a human being, but I doubt that’s the emotion he’s thinking that people are bestowing on himself.
So, I have no idea where your outrage is coming from. Really. I’m sure you thought your point an obvious one, but somehow I missed it.
No. This is extremely historically confused.
I barely know where to begin. Sometime in the mid 1800s, probably, when communitarians were coalescing, though we could go back far earlier.
But let’s not go back to far; modern American liberalism has its roots in such movements as the British Factory Reformers and similar movements. The Left, a variety of roots, including the Luddites and the Fabians.
In America, one might suggest Tom Paine as a radical, compared to Jefferson as an antecedent liberal. Marx grew out of and was of the Left, but was certainly not a liberal.
By the end of the 19th Century, the earlier liberal movement was known primarily as “progressivism,” and of course was made most famous by Teddy Roosevelt and the Republican Party; they warred against the monied interests, and for reform, but also with the left, which wanted revolution.
The reform/revolution split has pretty much always been the key divide between the two enemies, the Left and Liberalism; by the turn of the 20th century, there was a continued split and war between the liberal reformers, and the various Socialists/Communists. This further developed with the Russian Revolution. (See the movie Reds for some colorful, but accurate, representation.)
Very loosely speaking, both the reformers and the revolutionaries, of somewhat various ilks on both sides, could be very very very loosely said to both be on the “left,” but the emnity on both sides was great.
And in the Thirties, the split was exemplified by those on the moderate left, who were Eugene Debs supporters, along with the many varied more radical, fully revolutionary, socialist/communist parties, and those who were liberals, who supported Franklin Roosevelt.
The war between the left and anti-communist liberals was already in full force.
Post-WWII, it only became yet more inflamed and defined. And in the Sixties, we saw it continued as the New Left disowned and attacked the liberalism of their parents and grand-parents, to a great extent. (I’d talk about the Port Huron Statement, if I thought it would get me anywhere.)
This continues to this day in various forms; one can still find members of the various little Marxist parties of the left running around, and the Ted Ralls, and then there are the various forms of mainstream liberalism, generally in the Democratic Party.
It’s hard to untangle, given the ins and outs of the evolutions of terms — particularly of “progressives” and “progressivism,” and the frequent historic ignorance of many users, but usually it’s not so hard to figure out where to roughly place people, based on their actual attitudes, positions, and approaches, rather than their terminology.
But I think it’s far more confusing than not to refer to liberals as “leftists,” and worse it perpetuates the woolly-headed notion a lot of vaguely liberal people in the Sixties, Seventies, and through today took that somehow Marxist revolutionaries are just extreme liberals; nothing could be more wrong.
Generally speaking, for instance, the Marxist revolutionary program calls for killing many of the bourgeouis liberals, after the Revolution. This point was often missed by liberals without a clue about history or actual politics, in the last fifty years. But it’s kinda important.
Also, liberals don’t actually want to install a dictatorship of the proletariat led by the Vanguard Of The Masses. For instance.
What Rall thinks of himself as, I’m unclear. He likes to call himself a “subversive.” He also wrote a book about “Wake Up: You’re A Liberal!” He’s had some Democratic affiliations at times, but so have plenty of leftists, in a love-hate way, which seems to be Rall’s view.
That’s a leftist talking, not a liberal. Similarly:
That’s not a liberal talking.
“Generally speaking, for instance, the Marxist revolutionary program calls for killing many of the bourgeouis liberals, after the Revolution.”
I should have modified “Marxist” with “Leninist” or “post-Leninist,” actually.
“No, my point was that Gary wasn’t disowning Rall by saying ‘not a liberal’ — disowning him perhaps as individually unpleasant, but saying ‘not a liberal’ isn’t the same, for a leftist, as saying ‘not on my side’.”
No, I’m speaking as a liberal, and disowning Rall as a leftist. See what I mean about your being confused?
“What’s the word for ‘person on the right who’s too far right to be called a conservative’, in the same fashion that Rall is a progressive rather than a liberal? I can’t think of when I’ve seen such a word used.”
Fascist. But I don’t agree with the use of “progressive” in the sense lots of kids and other folks do today; I don’t actually know what most of them really mean, other than “don’t call us either liberals or radicals”; my suspicion is that lots of them don’t know what they mean, either.
kenB:
Correctamundo!
Jeff Eaton: “If we were to draw a giant chalk line down the nation’s demographics and call one side ‘liberal’, the other side ‘conservative,’ I don’t think anyone would have any arguments about which side of the line Rall and Coulter fall on.”
Yeah, but that would be a deeply misleading thing to do.
Hilzoy: “I am now going to ask: who is Rall? and what did it do?”
His site. He’s a cartoonist and syndicated columnist whose work appeared in syndicated form at the Washington Post and NY Times (he calls himself a “liberal,” there; more) for some years until his a bit after his “terror widows” cartoon, which is why he’s brought up in context of Coulter’s latest. (Strip here.)
“As for Rall’s repugnant pieces, I think his series on Pat Tillman was just as bad. I’d link to the original comic, but apparently the archives only go back a couple of months.”
But, still on the web.
Sebastian: “Lets go over the Moyers quote shall we?”
I’d be curious to; can you give a cite for the full quotation and context, please?
Wait, here it is. (Sorry; didn’t see anything clickable.)
Um, you seem to be entirely ignoring the context of his speech, Sebastian. Are you really claiming that present-day conservatives are epitomized by McKinley and Mark Hanna? If not, I see no grounds for ignoring that that’s whom Moyers was writing, at length, about. (Moyers naturally uses “progressive” properly, too.)
“Lets go over the Moyers quote shall we?”
Okay: “Many people are nostalgic for a golden age. These people seem to long for the Gilded Age. That I can grasp. They measure America only by their place on the material spectrum and they bask in the company of the new corporate aristocracy, as privileged a class as we have seen since the plantation owners of antebellum America and the court of Louis IV. What I can’t explain is the rage of the counter-revolutionaries to dismantle every last brick of the social contract. ”
Does that describe you and people of like-mind? Are you, in fact, “nostalgic for a golden age” and do you “long for the Gilded Age”?
If not, what’s the problem?
But, still on the web.
Well, yes. If you’d clicked on the first link, you’d have noticed that same cartoon there. Amazing, what one can do with the internets these days.
When I talk about Michael Moore I suggest that he might represent a troubling pacifistic strain of the Democratic Party.
I really don’t know what to say about statements like that. You feel that people who think that war should only be used as a last resort are troubling?
“You feel that people who think that war should only be used as a last resort are troubling?”
He objected to Afghanistan. I find that troubling.
Thanks for the background on Rall. I was especially interested in Gary’s interview. Anyone who can say, at any date after, oh, their first bomb went off, that they would have joined the Weathermen is someone my views have nothing whatsoever to do with, and whom I want no part of. Which is to say: Gary was completely right about ‘liberal’ and ‘leftist’, at least as used by people who know the background, and are not using ‘leftist’ as a synonym for ‘somewhere to the left of center’.
I mean, the Weathermen??? They were not just violent revolutionaries; they were certifiably nuts in their basic take on things. Saying you’d have joined the Weathermen sounds, to my ear, exactly like saying you would have joined Hitler’s Beer Hall Putsch, had you been around. It’s that bizarre.
Hmmm…choices are: Michael Berg doesn’t feel sorry for Zarq’s family, and he doesn’t think anyone feels bad for him, or Berg does feel bad for the family of a guy who’s on tape sawing off the head of his own SON, for crying out loud, whcih makes him…you tell me.
Or that everyone is somebody’s child, and that Zarqawi had family that probably loved him just as much as Berg did his own son, and it may have been equally painful for them to have to watch their family member die publicly as it was for him. You know, the kind of stuff human beings think about from time to time. Or maybe you don’t; I can’t read your mind. I have a suspicion here that you’re just being tendentious, though.
Maybe Berg feels sorry for the family of Zarq for being related to such a poor excuse for a human being, but I doubt that’s the emotion he’s thinking that people are bestowing on himself.
Or maybe he thinks that nobody should have to suffer the indignity of having their loved ones’ postmortem photos displayed in lovingly framed 3’x3′ color glossies on worldwide television. And that if they do suffer it, through no fault of their own, that he feels for them.
So, I have no idea where your outrage is coming from
Where did I claim any outrage, Kreskin? I pointed out that Ace is at least as prone to the slime attack as Coulter is. If, from that, you got “outrage,” well, either you might want to consider that you aren’t good at reading people’s emotional states over the fricking Interweb, or . . . hell, I don’t know. Toss me a second option there.
Really. I’m sure you thought your point an obvious one, but somehow I missed it.
Not to be rude, but you have a rather lengthy history of missing the point on stuff like this, Slarti. I have to conclude that that’s your fault rather than mine.
Hey, if you want to defend Ace, it’s your prerogative. I’ll think just a little bit less of you, but I can sleep soundly knowing that’s no skin off your back.
“If you’d clicked on the first link, you’d have noticed that same cartoon there.”
It wasn’t a jpeg or gif, but a link to FrontpageMagazine, whose writings about Rall I’m inclined to suspect I’d be uninterested in, absent specifics. If it had been a link to an actual illustration, or you’d indicated that there was one there, rather than writing about what a pity it was that the archives didn’t have one, I’d have known what your point was.
Dutchmarbel:
I can’t see how you get that. “Pacifist” doesn’t mean “people who think that war should only be used as a last resort,” of course. It means people who refuse to fight or support or cooperate with any war, period, no matter what.
Pacifists apply for Conscientious Objector status in this country when there’s a draft, but only qualify if they demonstrate that they sincerely believe the above, rather than what you say. If they pick and choose between wars, they’re not pacifists.
Pacifists are the people who objected to fighting Hitler.
Hilzoy: “Saying you’d have joined the Weathermen sounds, to my ear, exactly like saying you would have joined Hitler’s Beer Hall Putsch, had you been around. It’s that bizarre.”
Also, “stupid.”
war should only be used as a last resort
I wonder what “last resort” really means in this context. Presumably you would support a war in some situations even if there were other options available (such as total surrender, or acquiesence in the face of genocide). So by “last resort”, you probably mean something like “when it seems to be the least bad of the available options”. Do you think that everyone who’s more hawkish than you doesn’t approach it the same way?
No doubt there are some people who just like the idea of kicking a** regardless of consequences; but I’d guess that most people are not actually eager for war, even though we might disagree on how to properly weight the potential plusses and minuses of it in a given situation.
“No doubt there are some people who just like the idea of kicking a** regardless of consequences;”
Well, there’s Jonah Goldberg:
Hilzoy recently mentioned this, of course.
“I’d guess that most people are not actually eager for war”
Yes, and no. No reasonable person, by definition.
But there’s a distinct thread of macho right-wingedness that frequently, in some cases constantly, speaks differently, and extolls the need to go, yes, “kick ass” of various people the speaker/writer is offended by. Examples are endemic among commenters are certain belligerent blogs, though less frequent amongst right-wing intellectuals; but you can still find Max Boots and William Kristol speaking up for the manly virtues of fighting evil, and the like.
Then we could look back to Teddy Roosevelt’s writings on the virtues of war.
Well, presumably even Ledeen (to the extent that that quote represents his sincere belief) feels that doing so would ultimately serve the greater good, although I grant you that it doesn’t much resemble a “least bad option” in that framing. But you do remind me that I hardly have my finger on the pulse of the pro-war crowd in this country.
Anyway, there’s at least a non-negligible number of people who are more hawkish than most of us left-leaning ObWingers but who nonetheless are fully aware of the costs of war and who simply hit the “last resort” stage a little sooner than the rest of us.
“Anyway, there’s at least a non-negligible number of people who are more hawkish than most of us left-leaning ObWingers but who nonetheless are fully aware of the costs of war and who simply hit the ‘last resort’ stage a little sooner than the rest of us.”
Sure, although I wouldn’t even assume that every “left-leaning ObWinger” shares the same view, or that the center here is the same as at any particular other, more wholeheartedly left/liberal blog.
Not to mention that frequently people’s views change with time and circumstance.
My point about Roosevelt, which I realize I wasn’t clear about, was that he felt that going to war provided personal virtues in the development of A Man. A chance to find courage in one’s self, to face death, to face what life means, to judge what is and isn’t worth risking one’s life for, and so on.
Winston Churchill had some similar views, though he wasn’t blithe about what war meant to a society or land — though neither necessarily was Roosevelt, a man of great paradox, who despite writing at length on said virtues of war for an individual, had no Americans die at war during his term of office. (Similarly, he was the greatest conservationist President ever, the man who created the National Parks from scratch, and founded the American Museum of Natural History as a child from his shoebox, but who also almost surely killed more animals via hunting than any other American President times ten.)
But this all has to do with changing views over time; admiring the personal glories and virtues of war was once highly popular in Western culture, and was overwhelmingly the majority view, at least amongst the upper classes, but clearly not only amongst them.
That was, to be sure, largely before the invention of the Gatling gun, and then the machine gun and poison gas.
The Great War put paid to much of that.
On the other hand, it’s not as if charging into mass death was unknown prior to the 1850s, either.
But there are certainly still admirers of martial spirit, as well as those who are merely foolishly belligerent.
Indeed, we could start also discussing the cultural split in this country that’s been growing for at least half a century, if not more, between those sympathetic to, and apt to volunteer for military service, and those to whom it is close to unthinkable, absent a national emergency.
But that could also be misleading, because many of those most fervidly against unnecessary war are soldiers or ex-soldiers, for reasons that should be obvious, but clearly aren’t to all.
So the subject has non-obvious complexities, I suggest.
Gary, I lean more towards this interpretation, especially in a phrase as “pacifistic strain”:
Sebastian: as Anarch stated, he supported general Clark for president. To be honest, I hesitated over Afghanistan, especially since I felt there were more negotiating openings still available. The Taliban however, though slightly moving in a better direction, were really bad for the country and the people in it. I also believed Bush when he said that this time the US would stay and help rebuild the country – and felt that it was important for the US as worldpower that they could show that they were not bluffing.
Had I known at that time what I know now, that Bush’s promisses should be parsed by an American Lawyer for double meanings and even than cannot be relied upon – or that the US would bring in the Northern Allience, which consisted mainly of the former warlords who commited so many crimes against the population that the people welcomed the Taliban, I would never have supported Afghanistan. Maybe Moore was smarter and/or better informed than me.
KenB: everybody who supported the Iraq invastion while the inspectors were still in does not believe in war as a last resort.
I didn’t read all the comments but the point is missed entirely that the fascination with Ann Coulter has nothing to do with her rant but with the long-held folk wisdom that Fascist women give great head.
It’s just a weird psychosexual perversion.
Love.