by hilzoy
But stupid me had to go and read his column anyways. (Sorry; TimesSelect.) It’s about that recurring fantasy of DC pundits: the mythical McCain Lieberman party. Some excerpts:
“The McCain-Lieberman Party begins with a rejection of the Sunni-Shiite style of politics itself. It rejects those whose emotional attachment to their party is so all-consuming it becomes a form of tribalism, and who believe the only way to get American voters to respond is through aggression and stridency.
The flamers in the established parties tell themselves that their enemies are so vicious they have to be vicious too. They rationalize their behavior by insisting that circumstances have forced them to shelve their integrity for the good of the country. They imagine that once they have achieved victory through pulverizing rhetoric they will return to the moderate and nuanced sensibilities they think they still possess.
But the experience of DeLay and the net-root DeLays in the Democratic Party amply demonstrates that means determine ends. Hyper-partisans may have started with subtle beliefs, but their beliefs led them to partisanship and their partisanship led to malice and malice made them extremist, and pretty soon they were no longer the same people.
The McCain-Lieberman Party counters with constant reminders that country comes before party, that in politics a little passion energizes but unmarshaled passion corrupts, and that more people want to vote for civility than for venom.”
This is just the latest example of the peculiar idea that opposing Lieberman and opposing bipartisanship are one and the same. That could not be more wrong.
Back when I was growing up, there was some genuine bipartisanship in politics. This didn’t mean that people didn’t fight hard for issues they cared about, or that no sharp elbows were ever to be seen. It did mean, however, that people’s positions were not wholly dictated by their political affiliation, or by the decisions of the leadership of their parties; and that people from different parties were sometimes prepared to work with one another to come up with compromises that they could all support. I really value this sort of bipartisanship; in fact, I might as well be some sort of poster child for the willingness to reach out across political boundaries and engage my opponents in civilized discourse.
And yet I opposed Joe Lieberman. How can this be?
The answer, strange though it might seem to David Brooks, is that what I value is a genuine willingness to work with people of good will in the opposing party, as opposed to being willing to work with people in the opposing party per se. I would be very happy if there were, in practice, no distinction between the two. But there is. When you are dealing with a party whose members of Congress march in lockstep with the administration, an administration that shows no interest whatsoever in working with their opponents, occasions for genuine bipartisanship will be few and far between.
As far as I’m concerned, my real commitment to reaching out to people of good will among my political opponents does not imply anything whatsoever about my dealings with Karl Rove, or Tom DeLay, or Dick Cheney, or George W. Bush, any more than, back in the late 60s (when so many pundits’ views of the Democratic party seem to have been fixed in amber), a Republican’s commitment to bipartisanship would have implied a willingness to work cooperatively with the SDS.
I value Democrats who are willing to reach out to Republicans like Chuck Hagel or Olympia Snowe, and Republicans who are willing to reciprocate. I do not value Democrats who are willing to engage in the kind of fake bipartisanship that Grover Norquist (quoting Dick Armey) called “another name for date rape.” Still less do I value those who give George W. Bush and his destructive policies rhetorical cover, and at crucial moments join Bush’s minions as they stick shivs in Democrats.
Whatever the name for that is, it’s not bipartisanship, and I want no part of it. I support those who reach out to others in a spirit of good will, and are willing to work with them. I do not support those who reach out to their opponents’ political hit men and offer to help. And I am just plain baffled by those who cannot tell the difference.
I thought of being bipartisan as the expectation that one would get a little for giving a litte. What did the Republicans ever give in exchange for the “bipartisan” votes of Vichy collaborators? Bipartisan politics only works if it is “bi”.
I thought part of being bipartisan as the expectation that one would get a little for giving a litte. What did the Republicans ever give in exchange for the “bipartisan” votes of Vichy collaborators? Bipartisan politics only works if it is “bi”.
What did the Republicans ever give in exchange for the “bipartisan” votes of Vichy collaborators?
They refrain from calling Democratic collaborators traitors. At least until they stop collaborating.
Bipartisan politics only works if it is “bi”.
I don’t think the current crop of Republicans go in for that sort of thing.
I don’t think the current crop of Republicans go in for that sort of thing.
i’m not so sure. remember wonkette?
(Sorry; TimesSelect.) s/b (Thank merciful Heaven for TimesSelect.)
Ever since I’ve been prevented from idly reading David Brooks, my days are brighter.
Hilzoy,
On the one hand, you seem to (rightly) be uncomfortable with Republicans that “march in lockstep,” yet, you would seem to be demanding that Democrats do the exactly the same thing – by kicking Lieberman out for not being on message and criticizing other Democrats.
There’s a conceiveable pragmatic political benefit to the party in doing so; but lockstep party loyalty inevitably comes at the price of moral and intellectual dishonesty.
(I say this, being originally from Connecticut, and I could never stomach Lieberman and would be so happy to see him go if it weren’t for the fact that Lamont seems to be an even more lightweight dope.)
Hmm…I don’t see hilzoy anywhere with the lockstep-urging, Jonas.
“yet, you would seem to be demanding that Democrats do the exactly the same thing”
Hardly. The things Lieberman has been criticized for are very specific; Democrats are famously all over the lot on all sorts of issues. Joe Lieberman’s sin is primarily that which is symbolized by his famous hug of President Bush, and the fact that he’s the Democrat Republicans love to use against other Democrats. But there’s no mass Democratic movement to get either of the Senators Nelson out of office, and they both vote more conservatively and more in line with Republicans, than Joe Lieberman ever has.
Incidentally, do you also feel that Republicans who are unimpressed with Senator John McCain are demanding that Republicans march in lockstep?
McCain, after all, has a solidly conservative record overall.
Slarti,
You’re right, I’m on thin ice, but given her enthusiasm for seeing Lieberman driven out, it seems like defacto urging in its result.
Gary,
It doesn’t matter that the Lieberman criticisms are specific (so are mine about him.) It’s pretty clear that if he’s not allowed to be “in the Party” as it were, the lot Democrats are “all over” isn’t very big.
It’s the hug that drives me to irrational displeasure about this whole thing – the fact that this makes Democrats furious makes me roll my eyes and pour yet another drink.
I don’t care that Republicans use Leiberman or anyone else against Democrats. I bitch about Democrats nearly constantly, my Republican friends do the same about their fellow party members and leaders too. There’s no way to be a partisan “team player” and be honest. It’s impossible. I can condemn Lieberman for his issues, but I can’t condemn him for not twisting himself into an ideological pretzel to get with the rest of the party.
Seems that way to me. Every time McCain is in the news, it’s a non-stop bitch fest on talk radio that is a mirror-world reflection of what’s being said about Lieberman today.
With exceptions. And Lieberman had a solidly “progressive” record overall with exceptions like Iraq & Schiavo.
“It’s pretty clear that if he’s not allowed to be ‘in the Party’ as it were, the lot Democrats are “all over” isn’t very big.”
I don’t see it. Democrats are as disparate as ever. That doesn’t mean Democrats aren’t allowed to vote someone off the island now and again.
But to look at all the Democrats in Congress, and say they’re all in “lockstep” and their lot “isn’t very big,” just seems to fly in the face of reality to me.
* Joe Baca (California)
* John Barrow (Georgia)
* Melissa Bean (Illinois)
* Marion Berry (Arkansas)
* Sanford Bishop (Georgia)
* Dan Boren (Oklahoma)
* Leonard Boswell (Iowa)
* Allen Boyd (Florida)
* Dennis Cardoza (California)
* Ed Case (Hawaii)
* Ben Chandler (Kentucky)
* Jim Cooper (Tennessee)
* Jim Costa (California)
* Bud Cramer (Alabama)
* Lincoln Davis (Tennessee)
* Harold Ford, Jr. (Tennessee)
* Jane Harman (California)
* Stephanie Herseth (South Dakota)
* Tim Holden (Pennsylvania)
* Steve Israel (New York)
* Jim Marshall (Georgia)
* Jim Matheson (Utah)
* Mike McIntyre (North Carolina)
* Charlie Melancon (Louisiana)
* Mike Michaud (Maine)
* Dennis Moore (Kansas)
* Collin Peterson (Minnesota)
* Earl Pomeroy (North Dakota)
* Mike Ross (Arkansas)
* John Salazar (Colorado)
* Loretta Sanchez (California)
* Adam Schiff (California)
* David Scott (Georgia)
* John Tanner (Tennessee)
* Ellen Tauscher (California)
* Gene Taylor (Mississippi)
* Mike Thompson (California)
Wanna tell me they’re all lockstep liberals? In the Senate: Ben Nelson? Ken Salazar? Bill Nelson? Lockstep?
Lieberman isn’t being purged. He is being voted out of office. In my country, we call that `democracy’.
I don’t get why Democrats should feel they have to keep on people who don’t represent them.
I don’t think bipartisanship is much of a virtue in general, or, at the least, not as much as solidarity and truth in advertising is.
I bitch about Democrats nearly constantly, my Republican friends do the same about their fellow party members and leaders too.
And more power to them. The Democrats bitch about the Democrats too, fwiw; it’s a bipartisan sport, and more power to us all. What’s not acceptable is not just bitching about your team, but giving the other team permanent rhetorical cover under which they’re dismantling everything your team — your party — your country — supposedly stands for. That’s not ok at all, and if one can’t manage even that little bit of grace and discipline, then one shouldn’t be too surprised if one receives a firm boot up the ass and out of the party… as Lieberman has just discovered.
OOC, anyone have a sense for how much anti-Republican bitchery was allowed within GOP ranks back when they could maintain the facade that everything was peaches and cream (say late-2001 to mid-2003)? Any idea what fate might have befallen a Republican turncoat in those days? Or even just someone who was unthrilled with Bush Administration and took every opportunity to point this out?
allowed, Anarch? What’s the penalty for bitching without permission?
What’s the penalty for bitching without permission?
Well, in Joseph Wilson’s case, the penalty for “bitching without permission” was having his wife’s covert identity blown – finishing her career.
Joe Wilson was within the GOP ranks? Who knew?
Speaking of which, though, this may cut in many different directions.
Brooks writes: “The McCain-Lieberman Party counters with constant reminders that country comes before party, that in politics a little passion energizes but unmarshaled passion corrupts, and that more people want to vote for civility than for venom.”
Yeah, but what about when EGO comes before all. Both McC and Joe LOOOOOVE see themselves on TV more than anything else–they love how their “outsider” status gets them on talkshows. Remember, both of these guys think THEY should be THE president.
That ticket idea frightens and disgusts me in equal measure. Let the cheerleading begin!
Jonas, ss has been pointed out, ad nauseum as the point, the hard core GOPers have been actively working to purge the RINOs from their midst for some time now. Schwarz in Michigan, Chafee in Rhode Island and Specter in Pennsylvania have come under attack from the Hair Club for Growth for ideological impurity.
From this end, it looks to me like the GOP tent is a heck of a lot smaller than the Democratic tent. As for Joe Lieberman, if you didn’t want to get kicked out of the tent, maybe you shouldn’t have urinated in it quite so much.
What’s the penalty for bitching without permission?
there’ a pretty long list of former cabinet members who could probably answer that question.
Yes, there are a few facts that are pertinent, such as that Wilson never was part of the GOP ranks. Less, even, than I ever was. But let’s do some of that looking-up, shall we?
Joe Wilson, VRWC hatchetman. That Wilson has associated with members of both parties isn’t exactly confirmation that he was ever “within the GOP ranks”.
Stunning argument: I let Karl Rove do my thinking for me. How does one respond to such a blind assertion, except with contempt?
That aside, your style of argumentation seems…strangely familiar. It’s almost as if I’ve seen it before.
Wilson’s donations and political actions post-retaliation are, umm, a little bit after the fact, no ?
But the ones before aren’t, are they? And having been a Gore staffer before isn’t, is it?
Excuse me for not editing the irrelevancies; I’m probably way too attached pasting entire passages rather than just cherry-picking the good bits.
Jonas: “if he’s not allowed to be “in the Party”…”
He’s welcome to be in the party. I just wouldn’t vote for him if I lived in CT. And it’s not about his toeing the line on this or that specific issue. Even on Iraq — where lots of people who supported the war are pretty clearly not being driven from office, etc. — it’s not so much his having supported it that bothers me as his apparent belief that everything is peachy, and that there is no need to reassess his position in any respect — where ‘any respect’ doesn’t include just reassessing his support for the war, but e.g. reassessing his view that it’s going well, etc. That strikes me as a failure of judgment.
But what bothers me more than that is the combination of his willingness to claim for himself the right to define who is and who is not “serious about security”, or principled, or a person who remembers that we were attacked on 9/11, etc., with his having been pretty clearly wrong on a number of these points, and not being willing to rethink them.
All that said, however, I would have supported him had he won the primary. (His opponent seems to be an idiot.) But he didn’t.
allowed, Anarch? What’s the penalty for bitching without permission?
In the case of cabinet officials, being fired or, I suppose, being publicly reprimanded. In the case of Congressmen, either having a more tractable candidate groomed by the central GOP command to run against them or by having RNC funds denied them or by having a bitchsmackdown delivered by the Majority Leader (cf Arlen Specter) until they’re beat back into submission. The usual.
OT, I just got called a lefty earlier this morning. It’s been since our wee troll noah came a-calling that that happened last.
Ah, being unaffiliated does have its ups and downs. In the space of an hour I’m both the unwitting sockpuppet of Karl Rove and an unrepentant lefty. Good times.
Krugman on Lieberman puts my basic problem with him better than I could:
Thomas Ricks. This Thomas Ricks?
His ability to form conclusions from data are not exactly impressive, in this case.
But yes, in general I agree with this disagreement=disloyalty=treason equality profoundly. That Lieberman’s playing that game absolutely makes him a prime candidate for ouster. It’s not that I don’t think there’s any inappropriate speechmaking, it’s that I think such things deserve a different kind of response. Walk down the road of treason and you’re eventually going to get to trials, verdicts and executions. That’s what treason is all about.
Slarti: I don’t know anything about what Ricks is talking about in that quote, and it’s a line of thought I normally have to be driven to. I would note, however, that Ricks is in general a good defense reporter who (by all accounts) has very good sources within the military. And Fiasco, which I’m currently in the middle of, is very good.
Agreed on treason. I think that there absolutely is such a thing as treason; that being so, I obviously don’t think that accusations of treason are inherently out of bounds. However, I do think that they are one of those accusations — like accusations of pedophilia, or of participating in genocide, or some other utterly abhorrent thing — that are serious enough that they should never, ever be made as rhetorical flourishes.
I’ll go one step further and say that the accusations that this action or that speech emboldens the enemy are completely unfounded and are a poor substitute for a response on the issues. If for no other reason that by making that claim, one declares that such things embolden the enemy. See here, enemy? This encourages you!
Is the writer of this emboldening the enemy? Is that his intent?
Brooks’s reference to “the experience of DeLay and the net-root DeLays in the Democratic Party,” is baffling. Is he actually equating the fomer Speaker with anonymous chatterers on websites like this one? This is surely the reductio ad absurdum of moral equivalency reasoning.
It is not enough to deplore the lockstep voting and scorched-earth partisan attitude of Republicans; we need to solve it. “Elect Democrats” is not a solution: Democrats are for now less lockstep and partisan, but that may not continue; and if they cannot work with the opposing party, they will simply look ineffective. Moreover, past Democratic victories have merely made the Republicans join ranks even more fervently — and this strategy has been generally effective for them, so it is unlikely they will deviate far from it.
As far as I can tell, the solution lies with Congressional procedural rules and campaign finance regulation. Throughout the last 20 years, the Republican party apparatus has become more centralized and ideological, and also more indispensable to individual campaigns. At the same time, and especially in the Republican Congresses, the Congressional committees have gotten more firmly under the thumbs of their chairs, and their chairs (and membership)more firmly controlled by the majority leadership. The result is that a Republican Representative or Senator cannot run for office or advance legislation without the active aid of the party leadership. And that leadership demands complete loyalty.
That’s where my knowledge stops — I don’t understand the minutiae well enough to suggest specific fixes of the rules and laws. Any thoughts by those who know more would be appreciated.
“Joe Wilson was within the GOP ranks? Who knew?”
President George Bush did. President George H. W. Bush. At any rate, he thought most highly of Joe Wilson. I realize the facts have been obscured by all the sliming from the crazed extremists calling themselves “Republicans” of the past few years.
Wilson:
Prior to that he was a professional diplomat.
President Bush (H.W.) said of Wilson:
Perhaps not a Republican, but honored by the head of the Republican Party, the former chair of the Republican Party, and appointed to be his Ambassador more than once.
I thought most highly of Daniel Patrick Moynihan, but that didn’t make him a Republican. The rest of what you wrote: not arguing counter to any of it; not sure why you brought it up. Why you sought fit to link the same Wikipedia entry on Wilson that I linked to, I can only scratch my head.
Ok, then. This is, after all, all I was saying.