by publius
There are of course many reasons to be upset with the Burris appointment. But I’m actually most angry at Burris — and I hope he never gets a seat.
It’s one thing to accept an appointment and fight for it — Senate seats ain’t easy to come by. But it’s quite another to actually show up on Day 1 and intentionally create a media frenzy and sideshow on a day that needs to be devoted to gathering momentum for a potentially historic legislative agenda. Instead of allowing the media to report on that, Burris’s antics ensured that he’ll be the story of the day. He’d apparently rather hog the spotlight than make room for the greater good. It’s completely unacceptable behavior from anyone who claims to care about the party and progressive legislation.
Illinois Dems should also get their act together and impeach Blago now.
Would it be wise to impeach someone who hasn’t even been indicted yet? I mean, things certainly look bad for Blago but shouldn’t we all be for due process? Just as a matter of fairness?
i think impeachment doesn’t trigger the same due process rights as a criminal proceeding. i think the legislature has greater leeway to boot if they deserve it.
blago does. if the evidence was somehow conflicting, that’s another matter. but the phone calls make it clear — but there’s a pressing short-term need to get a senator appointed.
in short, i think things can rise to the level of impeachment but not indictment
Since when is there a requirement to wait for an indictment before impeaching, blackink?
I don’t have statistics, but isn’t it in fact common for impeachment proceedings to occur before an indictment, and even in cases where no indictment ever occurs?
Agree with you pub., except that Burris deserves scorn for accepting the appointment too. He is, and has always been, a dork.
Illinois Dems should also get their act together and impeach Blago now.
Wonderful. The Democratic Party can’t get its act together to impeach Bush, Cheney, or Rumsfeld, but surely can to impeach Blagojevich.
I agree that Burris should not be seated. Even if you want to argue that he’s not directly “tainted” by Blagojevich’s corrupt activity, his acceptance of the appointment shows he cares more about furthering his own career than dispersing the ethical cloud hanging over the process.
Am I the only one who thinks that the ethical, principled response to such an appointment would have been to (regretfully) turn down the appointment? So what does that say about Burris?
I see where you’re coming from, publius. But I just disagree. If the evidence hasn’t even been presented in a court of law, then who’s to say this all might be a lot of sound and not much fury?
To me, allegations are merely allegations. I think we all have the right to be a skeptic until the evidence has been submitted and vetted in a court of law.
And KC, there is no requirement that I know of. But then, what exactly would Blago be impeached for? Doesn’t he deserve the chance to at least defend himself against the evidence?
Is he or isn’t he legally appointed? Was the rule of law followed?
I might dislike his accepting it. I might dislike Blagoveich for appointing him. I might dislike a lot of things with it. However the people allowing him to make a spectacle out of this are the ones that rejected his credentials without a reasonable excuse.
On what legal basis were his credentials rejected?
NPR reported this morning that Burris, whose first name is Roland, named his son Roland and his daughter Rolanda. Sounds like sufficient ego to make everything all about him all the time.
I will say, however, that I do think Burris was silly to accept the appointment. He’s being disingenuous about all the drama surrounding his response.
But what did we really expect of the guy? He’s 71. This is probably his final chance – in fact, I’m almost sure of it – to hold an office of this significance.
“NPR reported this morning that Burris, whose first name is Roland, named his son Roland and his daughter Rolanda.”
George Foreman for Senate!
More seriously, and in answer to ED’s question:
The Illinois Secretary of State refused to sign Burris’s certificate of appointment. Senate rules require the certificate to be signed by both the Governor and the Secretary of State. So the Secretary of the Senate refused to accept Burris’s credentials. That part all seems above board. Now whether or not it was legitimate for the Illinois SOS to withhold his signature, I have no idea.
his acceptance of the appointment shows he cares more about furthering his own career than dispersing the ethical cloud hanging over the process.
And this is a justification not to seat him? That’s ridiculous. The Senate is full of unpleasant characters who put their egos ahead of the good of the country. Burris was legally appointed by the legal governor of Illinois. He should be seated, whether or not he’s a good guy. The Senate doesn’t get to refuse to seat people because it doesn’t like them. We’re governed by laws, not men, and the law says that Burris is a Senator.
This whole mess isn’t Burris’s fault – it’s Reid and Obama’s fault for bluffing and saying that they wouldn’t accept any senator appointed by Blagojevich, something which they had no right to do and no way to follow up on.
“Illinois Dems should also get their act together and impeach Blago now.”
Except since they haven’t, Blago is still the duly elected governor of Illinois — which makes the Burris appointment, and his acceptance of it, perfectly legal.
The fault for today’s media circus — having watched much of it this morning at home before coming to work for my 1-9 shift — lies with Sen. Majority Leader Harry Reid for disallowing Burris to be signed in with the other newcomers.
Had Reid done that, Burris would still be the lead story — but not one who could begin to look like a sympathetic figure.
On what grounds, I ask, did Reid duly deny allowing Burris to join the Senate’s Old Boys Club?
What’s more, I don’t think it looks very good of the Democratic leader shutting out a legally appointed black Senate designate to the Old (White) Boys Club that has long been the U.S. Senate.
We can get as high and mighty as we want about this. But since Blago shows no inclination to resign, he isn’t going away and, therefore, neither will Burris.
Seat Burris, as should be done, and it will surely be a story — but one that will fade and allow the 111th Congress to get on with the business of advancing Barack Obama’s agenda.
Of course he does. What does that have to do with delaying the impeachment until there’s been an indictment? The criminal trial and the impeachment are two difference processes.
You’re entitled to your opinion that an official shouldn’t be impeached “until the evidence has been submitted and vetted in a court of law”, but it doesn’t seem to be connected to the way impeachment works (or even is supposed to work) in the real world. Do you even have an example of an impeachment proceeding that was delayed until there was an indictment?
One argument is that Blagojevich’s attempt to sell the seat raises a reasonable suspicion that the appointment could be illegitimate, and the Senate can refuse to seat him just as it could refuse to seat someone suspected of being elected in a fraudulent election. The other argument at the moment is that he doesn’t have the proper paperwork from the state of Illinois.
Thank you, Bobby Rush. Can we get a few mentions of lynching and Bull Connor now to improve the level of discourse?
Sorry jdkbrown. That one has already been debunked as not being a legal maneuver by the SOS. He’s even said he has no legal standing to refuse on the appointment, but he’s doing it anyways. The Senate Dems might use it as a convenient excuse, but it doesn’t change the fact Burris is still legally appointed.
Not to mention the legal can of worms it opens up for any future Senator from one party elected from a state controlled by another party.
This is the extra legal type of crap that we hated from Bush, John Yoo, et al. No idea why so many people are in favor of contributing their noble tradition.
Blago should be impeached.
Burris should be seated.
Reid should be challenged as leader because his pathetic impotence makes the whole party look bad.
I don’t know. You can’t really fault Burris all that much, and the whole thing could have been avoided if Senate Democrats would just accept the pretty clear legal reality that Burris is entitled to the seat.
And I don’t think it’s all that big of a distraction. It’s not like anything was going to get done today or tomorrow anyway.
This is a no-win situation, thanks to Burris’s foolishness in agreeing to play Blagojevich’s game, but Reid’s strategy seems to be to be dragged kicking and screaming into allowing Burris in. I suspect that could actually be better than following the advice of all the blog commenters who think that the Democrats should look strong by rallying around Blagojevich’s appointment.
I’ve got to give Blago a little credit here. When this scandal broke, the Illinois governor seemed like a total buffoon. But the Burris appointment suggests that he has some political chops.
In Burris, Blago found a kind of perfect storm for this particular ratf**k. Burris is a plausible senator: he has a long political resume and he seems (from everything I’ve seen and read) to be un-corrupt himself. He’s old enough that he appears to be a caretaker, so that the many Illinois Democrats who hope to land in the Senate won’t freak out over his appointment. He apparently has long and fairly deep political ties with Blago himself (i.e. he can be trusted by the governor). He’s African American, which creates an instant constituency for his admission to the Senate (especially as he’s the potential replacement for the only African American Senator). And, last but not least, Burris is enough of an egomaniac that he could be counted on not only to accept the appointment, but to play the role of scene-stealing sideshow to the hilt.
Well played, Rod Blagojevich!
Whoops….messed up that link. It should go here.
This whole mess isn’t Burris’s fault – it’s Reid and Obama’s fault for bluffing and saying that they wouldn’t accept any senator appointed by Blagojevich, something which they had no right to do and no way to follow up on.
I can’t help suspecting that had Obama not voiced any opposition to Blagojevich’s senate appointment choice, many of these same voices now criticising Obama for their stance against Burris would be carping about Obama’s silence and saying, “See, Obama really is just fine with the level of corruption in Chicago/Illinois.” Heads I win. Tails you lose.
“The Illinois Secretary of State refused to sign Burris’s certificate of appointment. Senate rules require the certificate to be signed by both the Governor and the Secretary of State.”
Having heard this point this morning, I still think Reid could have lobbied, behind the scenes, for the Illinois Secretary of State to sign the damn thing — if an impeachment isn’t forthcoming — in order to get on with the important business of legislating.
Also, I wonder if Reid — on his own, or by a vote in the Senate — could have waived the Senate rule requiring both the signature of the Governor and Secretary of State.
Methinks this is the problem Illinois is facing — being in a suspended state of animation in Blago Land. He is the duly elected governor but it’s highly questionable if he can effectively govern, especially when the Secretary of State, in matters such as this, is establishing roadblocks so he cannot.
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“Wonderful. The Democratic Party can’t get its act together to impeach Bush, Cheney, or Rumsfeld, but surely can to impeach Blagojevich.”
Does sort of put a different perspective on things — and the best piece of snark I have read to date from Jes, who has been ringing the impeachment bell, along with Nell, loud and clear for some time.
Not that I disagree with them, and I certainly see Bush, Cheyney, et al’s transgressions — which could be proved criminal — as more worthy of impeachment than President Clinton’s.
But at the risk of opening up a whole different thread of worms, I wonder if the slog and scandal of impeachment proceedings would damage the Obama administration’s day-to-day ability to lead, get this country moving again, and put Obama in a place where he can effectively act on the world stage and address such pressing issues as Mideast peace.
I know it’s not what you want to hear, Jes, but I wonder if pragmatism outweighs principle here.
Bedtime, your idea is that Reid, or the Senate Democrats in general, should insert themselves into the Illinois battle, siding with Blagojevich? And that would make them look better?
They did insert themselves. They sent letters saying that they opposed a special election, Blagoveich should resign, and he should not appoint anyone.
I think they already inserted themselves pretty damn far as it is. They had just as big a hand creating this mess as anyone else. In fact in their normal desire to avoid confrontation, avoid actually doing their jobs, etc, the Democrats at all levels have tried to punt this hoping that Blagoveich would do the right thing. The one guy probably guaranteed not to do it.
Does any of this sound familiar? It’s their MO for the past 8 years with Bush.
I certainly hope not. I seem to recall that happening in late 2002 with horrific results.
What cleek said.
Also, in the impeachment process, Blago would have full opportunity to defend himself against the articles of impeachment. There is some assumption he is being impeached on the same charges for whichthe indictment is being sought. That is only partially so.
And this is a justification not to seat him? That’s ridiculous.
Actually, yes. Burris’s poor judgment and lack of principle beyond selfish careerism are perfectly good reasons for me to oppose his being seated.
Edmund, the problem with Bedtime’s suggestion isn’t so much the insertion as the siding with Blagojevich. That just seems insane to me, and I worry that so many apparently Democratic-leaning blog commenters are echoing the rally-round-Blago advice that the Republican trolls are giving.
I don’t understand what the holdup is with the impeachment. What is the Illinois legislature expecting will happen? They more than anyone else should be aware that Blagojevich is unlikely to do like Spitzer or McGreevey and put other considerations ahead of his personal power.
I don’t see how that can be. The reasons have to be about his appointment, not about him, since the Senate has no right to judge qualifications in the extremely broad way you’re suggesting.
What cleek said.
What john miller said.
Thanks
Just want to de-lurk a moment to say Edmund Dantes, John, cleek and bedtimeforbonzo seem to have the better of this argument.
All Reid’s hyper-ventilation is/was the problem. Burris was appointed by the sitting Governor and he should serve the two years. Rule of law, Harry. Plus what John said about the egomaniacs of this particular good-ole boy network and the sheer hypocrisy of that groups outrage over a guy being caught practicing politics on tape.
Plus what John said about the egomaniacs of this particular good-ole boy network and the sheer hypocrisy of that groups outrage over a guy being caught practicing politics on tape.
“Everybody does it” is almost always a poor excuse in politics. Doubly so when “it” is as textbook a form of corruption as selling a Senate seat.
I’m not at all convinced that everybody does do this. But if they do, they should all be impeached and indicted.
KCinDC. I totally agree they should have done it forthwith. If they think he’s impeachable, impeach him. However they chose not to for any number of reasons.
I’m not from Illinois so I’m not a 100% sure why they haven’t, but I’ve heard several reasons. Some think they are afraid to because they know of lot of them might get implicated in any number of other corruption angles. Some were hoping Fitzy would do the job for them (classic spineless Dem move). Some were hoping the guy that hasn’t shown one iota of doing teh right thing before will suddenly develop a conscience, not be vindicative, and not appoint someone before resigning. etc. (another classic Stockholm syndrome dem move) Some were probably hoping Reid and the Senate would take care of the problem for them.
I want to be clear that I don’t agree with what the Governor did or that I agree with Burris taking the appointment, but I have yet to see anything legally showing his appointment of Burris was illegal or invalid.
What cleek said.
What john miller said.
What Russell said.
Besides, what’s this complaint that Burris is an egomaniac? Since when does that disqualify anyone from being a Senator?
There is no legal basis for refusing Burris’ seat. Blago is still the governor, and the legislature has neither impeached him nor removed his authority to make this appointment. Nor is there any evidence Burris paid bribes for the seat.
The proper course of action is to seat him but for the DSCC to fund a primary challenge in 2010.
All state legislatures should remove governors’ power to fill Senate vacancies. All vacancies should go to immediate special elections.
Edmund, I can’t imagine how they could have thought Reid and the Senate could take care of the problem. The Senate can sometimes keep people out, but it can’t just select senators on its own. Either Blagojevich has to be removed from office (which almost certainly requires action by the legislature) or the law regarding appointments is changed (which definitely requires it). There is nothing the Senate can do.
I agree that the appointment of Burris is likely valid, but I don’t fault Reid and other Democrats for doing what they can to resist it, especially if the Illinois secretary of state is giving them an excuse.
How would the impeachment and removal of Blagojevich change the legal status of his appointment of Burris? It wouldn’t. Laws signed or vetoed by a governor are still deemed signed or vetoed, even if he is subsequently impeached and removed. It is the same with this appointment, which is a unilateral power of the governor, not subject to confirmation by any other entity. A new governor cannot appoint a new senator, because there is no vacancy; it has already been filled. The appointment cannot be defeated by the secretary of state’s refusal to sign it; that would transfer the power to appoint from the governor to the secretary of state, contrary to law. And the Senate cannot indefinitely refuse to recognize the appointment on the grounds that it hasn’t been signed by the secretary of state, because the rule requiring that signature is a Senate procedural rule, not a law, and therefore junior to the Constitution and the law. The relevant questions are whether Burris is constitutionally eligible to be a senator (he is) and whether he was in fact appointed by the person with legal power to appoint him (he was). If you wanted to block Blagojevich from appointing a senator, you needed to remove Blagojevich from office before he appointed someone. That didn’t happen. It’s a valid appointment. Swear the man in, and let’s get on with business.
No one should feel sorry for Roland Burris. Not when he’s got this.
“The Democratic Party can’t get its act together to impeach Bush, Cheney, or Rumsfeld, but surely can to impeach Blagojevich.”
The Illinois State legislature isn’t the U.S. Congress, Jes.
A couple of further comments.
Blago is the consumate politician who also has some luck on his side. His biggest lucky break was that the republicans don’t really have much of a bench in Illinois. If they had nominated anyone even halfway respectable and not wingnutty he would probably have lost the last election.
He also is not entirely stupid, which is why, from a purely legal point of view, its almost 50-50 as to whether or not he will be found guilty in a trial. His corruption is one of those types of corruption that is right on the line of legality, and when it stretches over the line, he has some cover built in.
Impeachment is not a criminal trial, and as has been pointed out many times on this site, is really a political instrument. The reason it isn’t used all that often is that there has to be a really really strong majority willing to vote guilty.
Up until recently, that probably didn’t exist in Illinois. But with his low approval rating, the anger towards him on the part of many Dems in the state, and the fact that the Lieutenant Governor is pretty well liked, the impeachment will proceed. Where the Illinois Dems screwed up was not voting quickly to require a special election to fill the seat, thus taking the option out of Blago’s hands.
All that said, the rule of law indicates that Burris should be seated. The fact is the Dems in Illinois and the US Senate screwed up. It doesn’t matter that Burris is ego-driven or that Bobby Rush played the race card. All that matters is the letter of the law.
As already indicated by a couple of commenters who think he should be seated, it isn’t because they want that to happen, but that it has to happen.
TKD, I wasn’t suggesting impeachment would help now (though it might if Burris withdrew afterward), just saying that the legislator should have done it earlier.
“If the evidence hasn’t even been presented in a court of law, then who’s to say this all might be a lot of sound and not much fury?”
You don’t seem to understand that an impeachment is an indictment. That’s why the trial follows impeachment.
Impeachments don’t follow courts; the legislature serves as the court.
I’m sorry, but you don’t seem to know anything at all about how impeachment and legislative trials work. In Illinois, as in most states, impeachment and conviction by the Illinois General Assembly can only follow the recommendation of a State House committee, which also serves as a preliminary indictment. HTH.
“On what grounds, I ask, did Reid duly deny allowing Burris to join the Senate’s Old Boys Club?”
As has been reported by every newspaper in the country, his credentials haven’t been signed, per legal requirement, by the Illinois Secretary of State. This is not a secret.
Sorry for repeating your link, Ben Alpers.
if an impeachment isn’t forthcoming
I believe it *is* forthcoming. Like in the next few days, supposedly. The trial (for removal) is another question.
“The proper course of action is to seat him but for the DSCC to fund a primary challenge in 2010.”
Because that would work out so well for the Democratic party.
I really am very startled to see so many regular ObWi characters following the recommendations of the Republicans. Blagojevich will most likely be impeached in a couple of weeks, an appointment will be made by the new governor, and that’s that.
There’s nothing illegal, unethical, or a bad idea about this. There’s absolutely no reason the Senate needs to accept an appointment under these circumstances.
And the idea that there’s racism involved here is ludicrous. Illinois has elected a variety of black folks to state-wide office, and will again.
And speaking as a partisan, the idea of seating a Blagojevich-tainted appointee so the Republicans can spend the next two years going on about Obama and Corrupt Illinois Politicians, while meanwhile Illinois politics gets further torn up and down by the need to defeat Burris, while Burris frequently makes news as the tainted incumbent, is so nuts that I have to think any Democrat who thinks this is a good idea is either into self-mutilation, or on acid, or at the least, hasn’t remotely begun to think through the results of such a course.
bedtimeforbonzo: I know it’s not what you want to hear, Jes, but I wonder if pragmatism outweighs principle here.
Yes, because that worked so well after Nixon. Also, it worked so well after George H. W. Bush. All of the criminals who escaped justice in the 1970s and the 1990s because the Carter and Clinton administrations decided just to let the past be and not rake up old wounds, well, they retired from public life in bitter shame at what they’d done and were never heard from again.
So, that’s what Obama should do, too.
No one should feel sorry for Roland Burris. Not when he’s got this.
An ego the size of a Winnebago. The man was born for the US Senate.
Blagojevich is governor until the boys in blue haul him away. In IL, vacant US Senate seats are filled by gubernatorial appointment. Blagojevitch appointed Burris.
Assuming the IL Secretary of State credentialing does not prevent him from holding the office, the man should be seated, and everyone should just move on.
No worries, tomorrow will bring some fresh new catastrophe. 🙁
Thanks –
Some people (e.g., blackink) seem to have a misconception of just what an impeachment is, despite our recent history. It is not a conviction. In the federal system it is a charge brought before the House of Representatives against a government official. If a majority believe that the charge(s) are sufficient enough to bring to trial, the Senate then takes up the trial of the official.
I don’t understand what the holdup is with the impeachment. What is the Illinois legislature expecting will happen?
Fitzgerald declined to share his evidence against Blagojevich with the Illinois legislature. Since that evidence presumably includes the ‘smoking gun’ tapes, it’s difficult to proceed without it.
Ben Alpers,
“as textbook a form of corruption as selling a Senate seat.”
You got the ‘quid’ and the ‘pro’ and the ‘quo’ on this? And if so why are you sitting on it?
“Blagojevich will most likely be impeached in a couple of weeks, an appointment will be made by the new governor, and that’s that.
There’s nothing illegal, unethical, or a bad idea about this. There’s absolutely no reason the Senate needs to accept an appointment under these circumstances.”
The last sentence doesn’t follow at all from the rest. The reason the Senate needs to accept the appointment under these circumstances is because the appointment is not made invalid by the fact that there are currently rumors of impeachment.
That is why they should seat him presently.
The appointment will not become invalid even if Blagojevich is impeached unless the impeachment show that the appointment in fact a corrupt appointment.
I think that maybe they could refuse to seat him pending an investigation into whether or not it was a corrupt appointment, but procedurally that looks like an immensely abusable precedent to set.
Laws signed by Blagojevich will still be valid until he is impeached. Appointments will be too.
Basically we have rumors that he *will be* impeached at some point in the near future. These may seem like credible rumors to us. But they are still rumors, and certainly have no force of law.
“All that said, the rule of law indicates that Burris should be seated. The fact is the Dems in Illinois and the US Senate screwed up. It doesn’t matter that Burris is ego-driven or that Bobby Rush played the race card. All that matters is the letter of the law.”
KC: I think you can support this position, stated here by john miller, and not be guilty of rallying around Blago.
From where I sit — and I am merely a taxpaying Dem putting in my $.02 — Reid has fumbled the ball.
Also, to not acknowledge the negative perception of the Senate shutting its Old Boys Club doors on Illinois’ Senate designate, who is black, is simply ignoring the obvious.
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“Blagojevich will most likely be impeached in a couple of weeks, an appointment will be made by the new governor, and that’s that.”
Gary: How are you so certain of this?
Seb: I see we agree on something. Now about that auto bailout . . .
Also, to not acknowledge the negative perception of the Senate shutting its Old Boys Club doors on Illinois’ Senate designate, who is black, is simply ignoring the obvious.
Except that Reid said Blago’s appointment would be rejected before we knew it was Burris. Making an exception after the fact, now that would be a double-standard.
I think we (can I say “we?”) can all agree on one thing: Reid is a putz.
Unfortunately, Sebastian and bedtimeforbonzo are correct. I wish it weren’t so, but I don’t see how Burris shouldn’t be seated in the Senate. The Illinois Secretary of State doesn’t (and shouldn’t) have the power to withhold certification, and Burris is constitutionally entitled to be Senator. Reid and Obama made a mistake by making an issue of this.
The only way around it is if the Illinois legislature nullifies the appointment by impeaching Blago based on the acts committed prior to Burris’s appointment, and removing, retroactively, Blago’s power to appoint. I think the legislature might be able to do something like this lawfully (since the proceeding is political and not criminal) but they have to do something affirmative.
Sorry for repeating your link, Ben Alpers.
No problem, Gary. The world can never have enough exposure to the grandeur of Roland Burris’s future resting place. It’s the least one can do for a Trail Blazer 😉
You got the ‘quid’ and the ‘pro’ and the ‘quo’ on this? And if so why are you sitting on it?
keatssycamore, Blago stands accused of trying to sell a Senate seat. I don’t personally claim to have the evidence necessary to convict him of anything. I was just affirming the seriousness of the accusation, which you dismissed as “practicing politics on tape.”
Agree that 1. there’s no reason not to seat Burris (I assume Reid is dragging this out for theatrical reasons) and 2. Reid is a putz.
Unfortunately, Sebastian and bedtimeforbonzo are correct. I wish it weren’t so, but I don’t see how Burris shouldn’t be seated in the Senate. The Illinois Secretary of State doesn’t (and shouldn’t) have the power to withhold certification, and Burris is constitutionally entitled to be Senator. Reid and Obama made a mistake by making an issue of this.
A number of issues are being mixed together here.
First, should Reid and Obama should have made an issue of a potential Blagojevich Senate appointment? (And, having made an issue, what should they do now that he’s made an apointment?)
Second, does the Secretary of State of Illinois have any discretionary power to withhold certification?
Third (and unstated by Sapient), can (or should) the Senate reject an uncertified appointment?
My guess (and it’s only a guess) is that the Secretary of State of Illinois does not have the authority to deny certification, but that if the Secretary of State has overstepped his authority, Burriss needs to take that up with the Illinois courts.
Whether or not it ought to do so, the U.S. Senate seems fully within its Constitutional powers to refuse to seat someone whose appointment to the Senate is uncertified, as Burriss’s is, at least for the moment.
I should add: I agree wholeheartedly that Reid is a putz, but I’m not yet convinced that he’s doing the wrong thing in this case.
I have to say that the sudden influx of different, never-before-seen, names-without-links, posting here on this one topic makes me wonder a bit about the possibility of sock puppets.
“I think that maybe they could refuse to seat him pending an investigation into whether or not it was a corrupt appointment,”
That’s exactly what’s going on, as I understand it, Sebastian.
“Gary: How are you so certain of this?”
Er, because it’s what every news source has reported.
“I assume Reid is dragging this out for theatrical reasons . . .”
Seeing how I fail to see the benefit of such theatrics, I hope the Senate majority leader is not that dumb.
I’m curious, btw, Sebastian, if you also feel Al Franken should be seated immediately.
Meanwhile:
And the impeachment is proceeding.
Bedtime, the benefit of the theatrics, presumably, is to avoid giving the corrupt Blagojevich’s pick a warm embrace and welcome to the Senate. If they have to be forced to let the guy in, it’s harder to use him to tarnish Democrats in general.
Tuesday’s Mini-Report
TUESDAY’S MINI-REPORT…. Today’s edition of quick hits: * In a change, the Bush administration now supports an “immediate ceasefire” in Gaza. The AP added, however, that U.S. officials “quickly stressed they would not budge from their stance that it m…
As has been reported by every newspaper in the country, his credentials haven’t been signed, per legal requirement, by the Illinois Secretary of State. This is not a secret.
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I don’t know the legal ins and outs, but I heard an interview on NPR with the SOS where he admitted he has no legal standing to block the appointment. His refusal to sign apparently is no legal impediment to the appointment.
“His refusal to sign apparently is no legal impediment to the appointment.”
Burris has asked the Illinois Supreme Court to rule on it, and it’s up to them.
“His refusal to sign apparently is no legal impediment to the appointment.”
Oh, and it’s not law, it’s the Standing Rules of the Senate that’s the impediment.
Gary, I can’t speak for Seb, but although I think Burris should be seated, Franken shouldn’t be. MN law states he can not be while legal proceedings are taking place. Although he has been declared the winner by the canvasing board, botht he SoS and Gov must sign off on it and they can’t until Coleman stops being a jerk.
“I’m curious, btw, Sebastian, if you also feel Al Franken should be seated immediately.”
I don’t even understand why this is a question. At the end of initial recount process, it appears Franken won the election, so of course he should be seated immediately. If it turns out that he didn’t because of whatever happens in the legal analysis of the recount process, he can be replaced by the actual winner at that time. Why should the voters not have access to a Senator over the months that it might take to get solid legal rulings on these things. [and while on the topic, for heavens sake people, why can’t we have firmer rules on these things, decided in advance, and stuck too whether or not it hurts your candidate today or mine tomorrow?]
John Miller: “Gary, I can’t speak for Seb, but although I think Burris should be seated, Franken shouldn’t be.”
Sebastian: “I don’t even understand why this is a question. At the end of initial recount process, it appears Franken won the election, so of course he should be seated immediately.”
Well, there’s a bit of an unusual switch, I must say.
FWIW, I agree with Seb’s thinking on the Franken issue, it is just that the law doesn’t allow for him to be seated.
And yes, it is rather a switch.
Sebastian’s reply works as an explanation of a way it might be good for things to work, but it seems to be ignoring Minnesota law.
John, doesn’t Illinois law require that the appointment be signed by the secretary of state? If so, I don’t understand why the Senate shouldn’t wait for that to happen. I suspect that’s the inconsistency that Gary’s wondering about (ignoring IL law but following MN law).
Where the heck did this idea that conviction of a crime is the standard for impeachment? Forget that, where did the idea that committing a crime is the only act worthy of impeachment?
I bet that nothing would have ever been done with Bush Jr. and Cheney anyway, but I wonder what the impeachment talk might have become if Democrats hadn’t raised the bar so effin’ high with Clinton.
Mike
From Gary’s Chicago Tribune link: “Members of the impeachment panel seemed unfazed by the possibility that any release of the tapes could come too late for them.
“Rep. Frank Mautino, D-Spring Valley, said that if the tapes come too late they can always go to the Illinois Senate, which would take up impeachment if it is first approved by the House.
“‘I don’t think the committee should wait,’ said minority spokesman Jim Durkin, R-Westchester. The panel had ‘amassed a significant amount of information to make an informed decision,’ he said.
“Committee member Lou Lang, a Skokie Democrat, has said the tapes are not crucial to the committee and it has collected enough evidence to make an informed decision.
“‘It is important that we get the tapes if we can get them in an expeditious way,’ Lang said. ‘If we cannot get them in an expeditious way, the committee I think is prepared to move forward.'”
I guess my confidence in the Illinois legislature isn’t as strong as Gary’s: I would not bet on impeachment hearings being conducted by the end of the month.
“but I wonder what the impeachment talk might have become if Democrats hadn’t raised the bar so effin’ high with Clinton . . .”
I am not sure I follow, Mike.
Clinton did not commit a crime, and he was impeached.
How is that setting the bar so effin’ high?
I agree that the Clinton impeachment probably prevented a Bush impeachment, but it wasn’t because of the bar was raised too high for Clinton. It was because the Clinton impeachment was so transparently motivated by partisanship that it made it easier to portray any future suggestion of impeaching the president as similarly bogus.
If there is something unusual in the MN law I suppose it could change my mind, but my initial impression is that the initial round is done, and that certification should occur. If mere litigation, which can go on just under forever, can hold up the seating of the apparent winner, that seems like a poorly drafted law. But then again, many election laws seem to be. If the law really is idiotic enough that you can’t seat a Senator so long as there is any small legal avenue to be explored I suppose he can’t be seated. I understand that Coleman asserts that the law in such a state, but I hadn’t seen that in fact he was correct.
The reason I’m not impressed by the Secretary of State certification argument is because it seems that people are confused about what it means. The Secretary of State certification is not a veto point. Pretending that it is would be a horrific precedent.
It is merely a confirmation that the document in question really came from the office of the governor. The Secretary of State is not empowered to decline to confirm that a document really came from the governor’s office if it did in fact do so. There are probably rules in place about what to do if the the governor is impeached, but as of yet he has not been impeached. The Secretary of State certification is not what makes the appointment valid. The governor’s appointment does that. The Secretary of State seal is intended to convey the authenticity of a document to someone who might not know. That would be precisely no one important at this point in the situation.
FWIW, Gallup says of national sentiment:
“It was because the Clinton impeachment was so transparently motivated by partisanship that it made it easier to portray any future suggestion of impeaching the president as similarly bogus.”
I agree with KCinDC and suggest that the GOP pissin’ on Clinton — and Clinton giving it the opportunity to do so — has tarnished the spirit of having impeachment as part of our checks-and-balances system.
Not saying it is right, but I think Jes should consider this when we like-minded Dems assert that it is unlikely that Bush, Cheyney, et al, will face impeachment proceedings.
As more folks start digging into Burris and his relationship with Blago, more interesting stuff is starting to surface, as it was bound to do concerning a lobbiest like Burris who has close political ties to Blago and his wife. According to this piece over at the Huffington Post’s Chicago blog by Carol Felsenthal, Blago’s wife may have benefited from a Burris lifeline as the Feds were closing in on her. The question, of course, is whether there was a quid pro quo. Given Burris’s increasing moral bankruptcy, it’s probably more likely than not that both Burris and Blago benefited from the Burris appointment. The only real question is who got what and was it done legally.
Bedtime, the benefit of the theatrics, presumably, is to avoid giving the corrupt Blagojevich’s pick a warm embrace and welcome to the Senate. If they have to be forced to let the guy in, it’s harder to use him to tarnish Democrats in general.
That’s my take too. Legally Reid and the Senate can delay seating Burris but ultimately after it has all been hashed out in the courts I don’t see how they can block him from being seated.
I think this is a bit of Kabuki designed not so much to block Burris as to make it harder for the GOP to spend the next 2 years hitting the Dems over the head with “corrupt IL machine politics” as a slogan. Not that the GOP won’t try anyway, but putting some distance between Burris and the rest of the Dems in the Senate will take the edge off of that particular attack, or at least so they hope.
And yes, in more general terms, comparing Reid with milquetoast is an insult to milque and a slap in the face to toast.
I’m a lobby, she’s lobbyer, he’s the lobbiest.
😉
From RAM’s Huffpo link: “Burris & Lebed Consulting represents numerous clients in front of the Chicago City Council, Cook County Board of Commissioners, suburban local governments, other governmental units across Illinois, Illinois General Assembly, the Governor’s Office and other local elected and appointed officials.”
So Roland Burris is guilty of being a partner in a high-profile lobbying firm?
Unless as RAM noted, there is an expressed quid pro quo, Blago’s only offense in appointing Burris — and Burris’ in accepting it — is bad judgment.
I imagine this Burris appointment — as we are seeing with the Bill Richardson situation — has made a lot of elected officials squeamish if only because this game of Six Degrees of Separation of So-and-So could make most of them seem guilty of something.
—
“I think this is a bit of Kabuki designed not so much to block Burris as to make it harder for the GOP to spend the next 2 years hitting the Dems over the head with ‘corrupt IL machine politics’ as a slogan.”
Makes sense, so perhaps I was not giving Reid enough credit.
“I’m a lobby, she’s lobbyer, he’s the lobbiest.”
Thanks, Gary, for boiling down what I was trying to say, while I was trying to say it, in just a few words:)
I’m in favor of the Senate Dems seating Burris, and then immediately calling for a vote to expel him–all the while making clear that if Blago’s replacement (or a special election, or whatnot) returns Burris to the Senate, he’ll be accepted. Of course, they’d need Republican votes to actually carry through the expulsion; but if Burris keeps the seat only because of Senate Republicans refusing to expel him, the Democrats have a pretty good defense against later Republican attacks.
The best outcome would be to rewind the whole mess and have Obama keep the senate seat.
All these arguments about the SOS signing some document or other make no sense. If the SOS has the option to sign or not sign then it’s the SOS, not the Governor, who has the power to appoint the Senator. That can’t be right.
I myself like Dave’s solution. Let Obama retain the seat, along with the Presidency, of course.
Gary Farber wrote, “There’s absolutely no reason the Senate needs to accept an appointment under these circumstances.”
But, yes, there is: the Supreme Court ruling in Powell v. McCormack strictly limits Congress’s ability to reject members. They can only reject members who do not meet the minimum constitutional guidelines (age, residency, citizenship), or who were not actually elected, or not actually appointed.
None of that applies in the case of Burris. He is eligible; he was actually appointed. There is nothing in the law that permits the Senate to reject his membership on the grounds that they don’t like Blagojevich.
See Erwin Chemerinsky’s article:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-chemerinsky6-2009jan06,0,2315785.story
Well, things apparently have gotten even more complicated and annoying for poor old inept Harry Reid. Apparently now Dianne Feinstein, perhaps still disgruntled about Leon Panetta, has said that Burris should be seated.
Charming.
bedtimeforbonzo hits the nail on the head with this one:
“On what grounds, I ask, did Reid duly deny allowing Burris to join the Senate’s Old Boys Club?”
While there may be a legal reason they can put it off until the signatures come through, will they seat him if the Secretary of State is forced to sign it?
Is it really that big of deal if they just let him be appointed? Unless somebody has evidence that Burris was appointed illegally, what’s the big deal? Somehow I think all the hand wringing by Harry Reid is simply because it is their Good Old Boys club. If Burris was already a member of the club, you would see a completely different dynamic.
“There is nothing in the law that permits the Senate to reject his membership on the grounds that they don’t like Blagojevich.”
That’s not a claim being made.
“See Erwin Chemerinsky’s article”
I already read it, but, y’know, as is usually the case, law professors vary in their opinions.
I have no idea how this play out, but I know that a single law professor won’t be the ruling authority.
My .02:
Although I did submit a request to the Office of the Governor to be appointed to the Senate seat, I do have to state that Burris was properly appointed and should be seated.
And after seeing the likely millions of words and hundreds of new hours dedicated to arguing any appointment Blago might have made, I can only say this:
“There, but for the grace of Rod, go I.”
“Unless somebody has evidence that Burris was appointed illegally, what’s the big deal?”
I already briefly explained the politics of it at January 06, 2009 at 03:17 PM earlier in this thread. It’s a huge political deal.
“Somehow I think all the hand wringing by Harry Reid is simply because it is their Good Old Boys club.”
Somehow I think this is complete nonsense and a Republican talking point.
“I myself like Dave’s solution,” Bernard Yomtov noted, adding:
“Let Obama retain the seat, along with the Presidency, of course.”
lol
—
DR: “Somehow I think all the hand wringing by Harry Reid is simply because it is their Good Old Boys club.”
GF: “Somehow I think this is complete nonsense and a Republican talking point.”
That may be so, although I think the GOP’s strategy through this whole mess — and if it isn’t, it should be — is to let the actions of Blago, Illinois Democrats, and, now, maybe Reid and Co. speak for themselves.
What’s that old saw about not entering the fray when your opponent is doing a perfectly fine job of messing things up on his own?
Still, DR did add: “If Burris was already a member of the club, you would see a completely different dynamic.” And I tend to agree.
May the long-time lurker and citizen of the (politically ridiculous) state of Illinois interject something here?
No one ever talks about people like me and what we want. Well I mean sure, they talk about “the people” and “the taxpayers” and all that, but it’s all just so much political posturing, isn’t it? It’s infuriating to see everyone from blog commentators to pundits to Senators tell us who should or should not be our Senator. The only thing MORE infuriating is Blago – a governor long hated in this state (his popularity ratings were on life support and there were rumblings about impeachment for months before Fitzgerald took him into custody [just a few blocks from where I sit!] that day) – what was I saying? Oh yes, the most infuriating thing is the idea that the United States Senate should honor anything this governor does or says.
We don’t consider him legitimate. If the people quite loudly say “this man isn’t the boss of us”, then the Senate should listen to that. That should MATTER, damn it all. Since the only poll I’ve seen pertaining to public opinion on the Burris “appointment” is a national one (another thing to infuriate me, reading what everyone *outside* of Illinois wants), I think the fact that the IL state legislature has very strong public support for the impeachment proceedings is a good gauge of the governor’s legitimacy, according to the people.
I certainly would not have had any objections to Burris if anyone but Blago would have appointed him. (That was before he pulled on his clown shoes and stepped out on this very large, bright stage. Now, I am in complete agreement with publius. The guy is just an embarrassment.) But I have a big problem with anyone legitimizing Rod The Sociopath’s actions. Everyone talks about politics, and the political maneuverings, and what about this technicality and that one, and which way can we twist this letter of the law and that legal precedent, and on and on and on. But the essential thing is that I’m living in a state full of people who are being completely ignored, when it’s THEIR voice that should be mattering most.
Maybe a special election is too much to ask for, but honoring the Really Obvious Sentiments Of The Citizens shouldn’t be. At least pretend that said sentiments are even a factor.
Of course I coulda skipped all that whining and just said “I agree with Gary”, which I often mutter to myself from my lair of lurkerdom. But I needed to whine, so thanks for providing a forum.
“I think the GOP’s strategy through this whole mess — and if it isn’t, it should be — is to let the actions of Blago, Illinois Democrats, and, now, maybe Reid and Co. speak for themselves.”
It’s clearly to try to taint Obama, and Reid, and the Senate Democrats, with:
a) Blagojevich’s corruption, and “Chicago machine corruption,” as much as possible.
b) Whatever suggestion of “racism” in rejecting Burris they can manage to sell.
c) whatever level of “the Democrats aren’t being democratic” they can get across.
and d) distract as much as possible from the news of what the Democrats intend to do.
So Publius is right about the “great distractor,” and that’s the goal and strategy of the Republican leadership.
Which you’re buying into by blaming Harry Reid for trying to prevent all this.
“If Burris was already a member of the club, you would see a completely different dynamic.”
What, if he were already in the Senate, he’d have no trouble being appointed to the Senate?
In any case, Blagojevich intended to throw a stick of dynamite at Democrats, and he’s succeeded.
There is no sound LEGAL argument against seating Burris. There is a weak procedural one, and there is a pretty strong Moral one. Just because something is legal, doesn’t make it right. If a man beats his wife, and it takes him 6 months to get convicted of battery, he doesn’t become a wife beater upon conviction he becomes a felon. Blago is corrupt NOW. He is an employee of the state of Illinois, who can be removed from office through impeachment proceedings. He doesn’t have a ‘right’ to anything but for his day in court eventually. His freedom is not an issue here, his job is. Taking his job away is (and should be) much easier than taking away his liberty.
I think not seating Burris is a very dangerous precedent. I think it sends all sorts of terrible messages, and has some really troubleing implications. I also think if there is a situation where it is warranted to take such drastic measures this is it.
Here’s the relevant facts:
Blagojevich tried to sell Obama’s vacant senate seat
Blago repeatedly shook down various entities for campaign contributions in exchange for state dollars. A childrens hospital is probably the most egregious example but there are others.
This is not merely “playing politics” this is honest services fruad.
We know he did these things because he is recorded on a wire talking about them. The origin of the recording is not in dispute.
Being the Governor of Illinois is a privilege, not a right.
You or I may be fired from our job without an indictment or a criminal trial. At-will employees can be fired without cause. A governor can be impeached if he is allegedly said to be unfit for office.
Impeachment proceedings take time to get out of committee and have a trial associated with them. The rules of evidence are not the same as for a criminal trial. The burden of proof is not the same. It’s actually not clear what the differences are, they are not explitly defined in the state constitution. Impeachment takes time, but its going to happen eventually. Well it should anyway.
I’m not surprised there is controversy over this issue. Unlike some people, I do think this situation is very complicated, with differing interests that have to be taken into consideration. It’s just not as simple as those either for or against Burris would suggest.
As an aside, who is more arrogant? Burris? or Blago?
I’m with Gary, it’s a Republican talking point. And have we ever seen DR before? How likely is it we’ll see DR again, do you think?
Reid announced his opposition to Blagojevich’s appointment long before anyone knew who it would be, and all this about the boys’ club and how the guy’s a racist is garbage.
Whoever Blagojevich appointed would be in exactly this position. Do you have any suggestions for what possible appointees you think would have qualified as members of the boys’ club and caused Reid to immediately back down from his earlier statements?
Gary Farber says: law professors vary in their opinions. True, but do you know of one law professor who argues that Burris shouldn’t be seated? I buy the argument that the Senate needs to wait until the inevitable ruling by a court that SoS needs to certify, but there is an ethical responsibility for lawyers not to bring suits for the sole purpose of delay, and it seems that everything going on is to delay a lawful result from occurring.
KCinDC’s theatrics theory is the only one that makes sense to explain why Reid is even doing this. I’m glad I understand now. I kind of like jdkbrown’s proposal to seat Burris, then expel him, then reseat him if reappointed. Good way to head off Republican complaints.
As to EK and the desires of Illinois citizens: you’re the folks who elected Blago twice! Of course, go ahead and impeach him, but in the meantime (and during impeachment and afterwards) you have to follow the laws of your state – so elect honest governors, and make better laws! Nothing that’s going on now is subject to popular referendum unless I’m mistaken about the laws of Illinois.
And America elected Bush! Twice! So your opinions on what he does doesn’t matter, sorry. Do better next time.
Here are a few people–at least some of whom are law professors–who argue that the Senate is well within its legal rights to refuse Burris:
Akhil Reed Amar and Josh Chafetz:
http://slate.com/id/2207754/pagenum/all
Lyle Denniston:
http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/analysis-must-senate-seat-burris/
Jack Balkin:
http://balkin.blogspot.com/2008/12/can-senate-refuse-to-seat-ronald-burris.html
List and links lifted from Nate Silver at fivethirtyeight.com
EK,
That is why I offered myself. A regular citizen, not tied to either party, to represent the citizens of Illinois. No taint, no ties to the politics.
But, given my disappointment in not being chosen, Blago has the right to appoint someone, and there appears to be no untoward “deal” for the appointment, so it should go forward.
And I don’t think we have enough money in the budget to run a special election right now, unless we sell off the tollways at fire sale prices.
EK, that wasn’t my point. The Burris issue is now a legal issue – it’s not about what Illinois citizens (or United States citizens, for that matter) want. I imagine it’s frustrating for Illinois citizens to have crooks for governors, just as it’s frustrating for me to have a criminal President, but that doesn’t mean the President can’t issue executive orders. Because as unpopular as he is, and however many war crimes he’s committed, he’s still President.
So I’m just saying – yeah, people might hate Blago just as they hate Bush, but they’re stuck, aren’t they? For the moment?
Sapient,
I voted against Blago, twice; Bush, once (the first time we decided to take a last minute cruise and weren’t able to get absentee ballots).
We should follow the law; as for the impeachment, so far the grounds are wide but thin. However, unlike the US Constitution, Illinois’ only requires cause, not an actual crime (although the latter doesn’t seem to be sufficient for the current Congress).
@EK:
I sympathize with your frustration, but the Bush jibe reinforces Sapient’s point: Bush needed to be impeached. Blago needs to be impeached. Put your anger and pressure where it belongs: on the legislators who haven’t had the political courage to do what needed to be done.
The Illinois legislators’ failure has a lot in common with the House Democratic leadership’s failure: they’re complicit in a good many of the crimes and corruptions involved.
@Fraud Guy: The U.S. constitution does not require a crime, either. “High crimes and misdemeanors” is a term of art that is not the same thing as violations of the U.S. criminal code.
Apropos of nothing.
There actually is a crime which requires punishment prior to conviction (at least in Illinois, and in several other states).
Aggravated sexual assault (child molestation).
Once charged or indicted, until charges are dismissed or the accused is acquitted at trial, they are restricted in their actions for life. I am not sure if such a indictment would prohibit a governor from executing his office, but not being able to be in schools, most public parks, and the like would be a definite crimp in his schedule.
If the standard being used is that a majority of the senate can refuse to seat someone because an election was not free of corruption, the democrats had better hope that the republicans never gain a majority in the senate again, because that would be the end of democrats ever being allowed into the senate.
Be careful what you ask for. Although it is fun to see how quickly the “nation of laws” attitude turns to “whatever we can get away with”. I was hoping it would take a bit longer.
The solution of course, has already been mentioned, admit that he has been elected to the senate, hand him a lollipop and a “I was a member of the us senate but all i got was this lousy t-shirt” souvenir, expel him, and move on.
Nell,
At least high crimes and misdemeanors imputes some degree of wrongdoing. For “cause” sounds like being an at will employee, able to be let go for being late twice in a year, not living in the governor’s mansion, or just because the legislature can get enough votes to kick you out.
Oh trust me, there’s plenty of anger and frustration directed at the IL legislature, for all the good it does us. But do recall that I copped to mostly just whining there. And also: Jesse White (our well-liked Sec of State) has refused to certify anything that comes from this governor. I don’t believe this is a political move – though heck if I know what truly lurks in the hearts of men. He has repeatedly said that he can’t in good conscience give legal certification to anything that comes from this Governor. Jesse White is, in that respect, the only person who seems to be making sense. A crazy person is issuing orders. Don’t listen to the crazy person just because we haven’t quite locked down the buckles on the straitjacket yet.
But anyway, I’m being interrupted and will have to catch up with you all at a later date, from my regular lurkdom. Just couldn’t quite stand reading yet more parsings of legal facts and interpretations of the best political moves that contain no mention of that whole “voice of the people” thing that’s supposed to at least get lip service.
” However, unlike the US Constitution, Illinois’ only requires cause, not an actual crime”
The U.S. Constitution most certainly does not require an “actual crime.”
“The President, Vice President, and all other civil Officers of the United States shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other High Crimes and Misdemeanors.”
“High Crimes and Misdemeanors” has never been particularly defined. In essence, it’s whatever Congress says it is.
Do those of you suggesting that Burris should be admitted and then expelled actually believe that 2/3 of the senators would vote to expel him? What would be the reason, given that by admitting him they’ve said that the appointment was okay?
jdkbrown, thanks for the links to the professorial articles. (I’d seen the Slate article, but had forgotten it.) I found the comments at Balkanization quite enjoyable. Although I understand the argument that the Senate can legitimately refuse to seat Burris, I find it tenuous. I also agree with the commenters there who suggest that the Senate in exercising a Constitutional power would establish a very worrisome precedent if their actions were upheld.
This case is incredibly interesting to consider. Although maybe attention is being diverted from the grave issues that face the country, it really provides comic relief in a way – one of those cases that seems to have been made for law school discussions. I don’t see how any resolution that comes of it does any harm, especially given KCinDC’s theory that Senate Democrats are insulating themselves from the unjustified political hay that Republicans will try to make of the corruption issue. If the evidence is what it seems, Blago is a disgrace for sure, but he’ll be taken down in due course. And, though clownish, Burris seems harmless enough.
“What would be the reason, given that by admitting him they’ve said that the appointment was okay?”
Why would that be an admission? They admit him because they’re legally forced to (though I actually think that’s still an open question), and they expel him because there is a cloud of illegitimacy over his appointment. The Sentate’s power to expel its members–unlike it’s power to refuse their seating–is absolutely discretionary.
Is it just me, or does anyone have this song running thru their head?
Actually, it’s not clear that the expulsion power is discretionary. “Each House may determine the rules of its proceedings, punish its members for disorderly behavior, and, with the concurrence of two thirds, expel a member.” Expulsion may be construed to relate to punishment for disorderly behavior.
Still, a subsequent impeachment of Blago for acts occurring before the appointment of Burris might lend credence to a nullification of the appointment (by the state).
Do those of you suggesting that Burris should be admitted and then expelled actually believe that 2/3 of the senators would vote to expel him?
Yep. And if they don’t there isn’t reason enough to deny him a seat. When the republicans control again, what do you think the standard should be for deciding which elections or appointments were or weren’t corrupt enough to warrant refusing to seat someone? The word of the majority leader? 50 votes? Do you think they would ever seat ANY democrat from illinois if corrupt elections are a reason not to?
What would be the reason, given that by admitting him they’ve said that the appointment was okay?
The appointment was arguably legal, not okay. The reason would be that the appointment was not okay, if a reason was given. Or they could just say, “You are ugly and your mother dresses you funny”.
It’s all a terrible idea for a zillion reasons, but it’s all irrelevent. So is the act that the Secretary of State has refused to perform the ministerial act of certifying that the governor of the state has, in fact, appointed Burris. I love Jesse White, but he’s clearly wrong about his, and so is Harry Reid. Those powers are very limited ones. As Burris says, he is, now, the junior Senator from the State of Illinois. It is not a close case.
The Democrats will survive. Blago will be impeached and convicted by the State Senate and removed from office. Lisa Madigan or another prominent Democrat will beat Burris in a primary if he stupidly insists on running, and will probably beat out any Republican running.
KCinDC: Reid announced his opposition to Blagojevich’s appointment long before anyone knew who it would be, and all this about the boys’ club and how the guy’s a racist is garbage.
Yes, but…
On Dec. 3, before Blago was charged, Reid allegedly called him and made it clear he did not want Jesse Jackson, Jr., Danny Davis or Emil Jones – but Tammy Duckworth or Lisa Madigan would be OK.
If true I’m open to the possibility that it (black men, no – white women, OK) was pure coincidence, but it kind of smells bad. Call it a Republican talking point if you like, but Reid (allegedly) served it up. But as he was OK with white women he can’t be accused of wanting to maintain the Old Boys Club…
As for Burris – while I don’t think much of him (Cruz issue), the states get to choose their Senators under their rules and Reid has (should have) nothing to say about it.
“Cold Cash” Jefferson won the D primary and the runoff while under indictment. Had he won the election, would Pelosi have declined to seat him? I doubt it.
I don’t want to see Franken in the Senate either, and I think there were plenty of inconsistent decisions in the recount that mostly broke his way – but in the end if he wins under MN’s rules then he is legitimate and I’d howl if Republican’s opposed seating him based on questions of legitimacy.
Maybe for once I can say I’m for state’s rights without someone claiming it’s code for racism…
“But as he was OK with white women”
I’m unaware that most people think Thai people are “white.”
“‘Cold Cash’ Jefferson won the D primary and the runoff while under indictment. Had he won the election, would Pelosi have declined to seat him? I doubt it.”
Well, wait, either Congress discriminates against black folk, or it doesn’t. Which charge are you making?
I’m unaware that most people think Thai people are “white.”
Well, I didn’t say Caucasian, but you are right: sloppy of me to use “white” as shorthand for “light-skinned”. I stand corrected.
Well, wait, either Congress discriminates against black folk, or it doesn’t. Which charge are you making?
Two different topics – sorry that was not clear. The first was “Republican talking points” on racism which I think Reid may have opened himself up to. Even us reformed Republicans enjoy the delicious irony of Democrats twisting themselves into knots over issues of racism in this election cycle after their decades of identity politics. Recall that it was Democrats making the charges of racism concerning Burris. Yet somehow it becomes a Republican talking point…
The only “charge” is one of inconsistency. Reid feels he can block a Senator sent up by a state due solely to a question of legitimacy related to charges (as yet not even an indictment [yes I think he is guilty as hell]) against the Governor who appointed him. OTOH, no action was taken to evict a Congressman actually indicted, and I believe he would have been seated had he been re-elected.
Recall that it was Democrats making the charges of racism concerning Burris. Yet somehow it becomes a Republican talking point…
Specifically:
The racism charges started with Blago (D) and Burris (D). Bobby Rush (D): “Don’t hang or lynch Burris…” But it’s a Republican talking point. Republican’s don’t even have to get involved with this. They can stand on the sidelines munching popcorn and throw Reid an anchor if he looks like he is drowning. But let’s imagine for a minute that Mitch McConnell calls up a Republican Governor and tells him/her “That (black) man, that (black) man, and that (black) man are unacceptable appointments, but these two (light-skinned) women would be OK.”
Democrats would never ever imagine that racism could have played a part…
And of course it’s still all identity politics. Democrats set the expectation that a woman would fill Clinton’s seat, and that an AA would fill Obama’s seat.
Qualifications and re-electability take a back seat to identity politics. I don’t seem to recall any Democrats setting the expectation that some old white dude would fill Biden’s seat…
OCSteve: “the states get to choose their Senators under their rules and Reid has (should have) nothing to say about it.”
It’s hilarious that OCSteve thinks that party leaders don’t weigh in on who they prefer as being more electable or not electable! And the charge of racism is ridiculous. I think Burris should be seated, but this spectacle is entirely about political maneuvering, and Reid’s preference for who gets into the Senate has to do with retaining a strong Democratic majority. He has every right to state his preferences as to who is most electable.
“The racism charges started with Blago (D) and Burris (D).”
Yes, Steve, it started with the current Democratic governor whose entire plan was to toss a stick of dynamite, and get it to be a Republican talking point, and so it has. Neither Blagojevich nor Burris are acting in the interests of the Democratic Party, after all. What’s hard to understand about this?
“Qualifications and re-electability take a back seat to identity politics.”
You can’t simultaneously maintain this while charging that it’s a case of “[t]hat (black) man, that (black) man, and that (black) man are unacceptable appointments, but these two (light-skinned) women would be OK.”
Please pick a charge; you can’t have two contradictory ones. In fact, the rejection of Burris is indeed to a large degree about re-electability, though that’s not enough to get him rejected in normal circumstances, since normally it couldn’t rise to something the Senate would do anything about, other than having Democratic Senators sighing.
“OTOH, no action was taken to evict a Congressman actually indicted, and I believe he would have been seated had he been re-elected.
Of course, Reid has nothing to do with Jefferson, a former House member. And if he did, the racism charge seems to fall apart. OCSteve seems to be gathering whatever Republican talking points exist and throwing them all out there.
“I don’t seem to recall any Democrats setting the expectation that some old white dude would fill Biden’s seat…”
Naturally, “white dudes” across the country are deeply concerned about the severe shortage of their kind in the Senate. Why, the parallels are uncanny!
Sebastian: If there is something unusual in the MN law I suppose it could change my mind
There is, and it probably will. Here is an explanation from a Minnesotan who is very eager to see Al Franken sworn in as Senator, trying to educate impatient Dems castigating Harry Reid over the announcement that he would not be sworn in yesterday, despite the canvassing board’s certification of his 225-vote lead:
I feel the same way about the Franken and Burris cases: The process is not one that I like, nor the outcome — Burris should be seated if the Secretary of State signs his certification, because his appointment is legal (the Illinois legislature having failed to act to impeach the governor or to require a special election); Franken can unfortunately not be certified, and thus not seated, until former Sen. Coleman drops his futile legal efforts to deny Franken the seat he won.
The balkin post just reinforces my opinion that the Constitutional method he proposes never ever gets results he doesn’t like. Somehow the Constitution always agrees with him. The only time it ever seems to win is when there are actual dates (like the amount of time between election and swearing in).
This is a pretty good case for thinking about the rule of law. Sure, we CAN stretch the laws out of whack by pretending that certain words don’t mean what they say, or that a Secretary of State certification is meant to be a veto point. We CAN do that. We can get the RESULT we want. But we can’t do it without doing violence to the actual normal function of the laws. But when you do that, you reinforce the notion that procedural safeguards are just things to be gamed, not things which exist for the purpose of allowing the system to orderly work things out.
The procedural system isn’t even broken. We are just choosing not to implement it. The Illinois legislature can choose to impeach the governor. It could have chosen to have a special election to fill the seat.
There is a *substantive* failure of the legislature to do its job. Trying to correct that by twisting normal procedures isn’t good. Correct it by holding the legislature accountable for not doing its job.
Honestly, what is the worst that could happen here? The Senate admits a member with some taint of corruption. It certainly isn’t the first time. If it turns out he bribed the governor, expel him. Otherwise, vote him out later. This really honestly isn’t worth twisting the rule of law over. This is worth using the legal procedures we have over, sure. But it isn’t worth pretending that Secretaries of State are a valid veto point for example.
Nell, that isn’t really the kind of detail I would need to change my mind. I’m looking for some sort of statute that makes it clear that you can’t move forward at all with the apparent winner while the whole thing is being sorted out. That may exist, but I haven’t seen it.
KC and GF: This is my first time checking in today after signing off last night at work at 10, and I’m soon going to take a day-off, rain-induced nap. I just want to say, for now, at least, I prefer to give DR the benefit of the doubt and not accuse him of spouting off Republican talking points.
It’s possible he has been a lurker (like EK, who gave us some Illinois perspective and frustration on this whole thing; welcome EK); it’s possible he is a drive-by commentator; it’s possible he just found us by happenstance (as I did back in the spring); it’s possible, yes, that he is a GOP talking-pointer. But until we get a better sense of DR, or any other newcomer, for that matter, I will simply take him at his word.
What’s more, I do not doubt that the Republicans are enjoying the whole Blago/Burris/Reid mess. But to accuse them of much more than that, at this point, seems like Democratic paranoia.
Sure, they’ll attempt to make political gain with this wherever they can — just as the Dems would if the shoe were on the other foot. But I think it’s important to remember that this time bomb was made by Blago, Burris pulled the trigger, and Reid didn’t know how to stop it.
Or maybe not: Reid and Durbin were playing kissy-face with Burris today in a sudden and strange about-face. So maybe Reid is a GOP sympathizer? Or maybe he figures it’s time to get on with the business that faces the 111th Congress and seat Burris, as soon as all of the i’s have been dotted and t’s have been crossed on his paperwork?
Burris himself gave Reid a fine “out” when he said today that ol’ Harry was simply trying to protect the integrity of the Senate before allowing him to walk through the chamber’s doors.
Sounds like he’s already got his Senatorial diplomacy down pat.
OK- way behind and it isn’t really smart to comment at this late point, but:
Sapient: Uhmm. OK.
Gary: Please pick a charge; you can’t have two contradictory ones.
Hmm. I tried twice. Maybe again tomorrow… ASAICT I was pretty clear. I will review again tomorrow though, I am tired now. I don’t see a problem now but it is entirely possible I will when I review this tomorrow… Can you spell it out for me? (No snark, I am asking for your help as I don’t know where I went wrong here. I thought I had strong arguments.) Silly me… 😉
Sapient: OCSteve seems to be gathering whatever Republican talking points exist and throwing them all out there.
Yup. That’s me. I’m still getting McCain “points” that I will cash in some day. Still trying to pick out my prize though. I really wanted the Red Rider Sled…
“Can you spell it out for me?”
I think this thread has largely played out, but since you ask: You can’t logically simultaneously claim that Democrats are trying to keep African-American politicans out of the Senate and that “Democrats set the expectation that a woman would fill Clinton’s seat, and that an AA would fill Obama’s seat….”
Either Democrats are trying to keep African-Americans out, or they’re mindlessly trying to find one to include: which is it?
For what it’s worth, I think the idea that Reid and company are trying to keep Illinois, the state that sent Carol Mosely-Braun, and Barack Obama, to the Senate, and has elected other African-American politicians — such as Burris! — to state office, from sending another African-American to the Senate to be very silly. What Reid and company are interested in is finding someone who can win in 2010, and that’s not Burris. The reason that they don’t want Burris is because he greatly hurts the chances of getting a Democratic Senator properly elected in 2010.
” I’m still getting McCain ‘points’ that I will cash in some day.”
For what it’s worth, I don’t think anything like that, of course, but I do think you’re still plenty susceptible to finding Republican talking points plausible. You’re entitled to, of course, but I don’t think it’s a particularly unfair claim.
“For what it’s worth, I think the idea that Reid and company are trying to keep Illinois, the state that sent Carol Mosely-Braun, and Barack Obama, to the Senate, and has elected other African-American politicians — such as Burris! — to state office, from sending another African-American to the Senate to be very silly.”
First, what Reid is or isn’t doing is entirely separate from what Illinois is or isn’t doing. And as Gary notes, Illinois has elected Obama and Ms. Mosley-Braun to the Senate.
Second, I did not mean to imply in my earlier comments that Reid — in his fumbling of the Burris affair, and ruling out allowing anyone Blago appointed to take a Senate seat strikes me as a misplay — had any racial motives in keeping Burris out.
My only point was that Burris having the door closed on him, standing out in the rain, could send a “negative perception” (the term I used yesterday) considering the Senate — long looked at as one of America’s Old Boys Clubs — swore in 98 members yesterday, none of whom are black.
Anyhow, as I noted earlier, Reid made nice with Burris today and appears to have had a change of heart about allowing him in the Senate.
Wish I could stay on, but the wife is getting jealous of the Kitty and wants some attention upstairs.
Besides, as OCSteve (I think) noted, this thread — and a good one it was — has probably played itself out.
P.S. Signing onto my Comcast homepage a moment ago, I saw the headline: “Obama Fights to Keep Blackberry.” I know there are security concerns — and perhaps someone will write a post on this — but my initial impression of this is let the man have his precious Blackberry, maybe some blueberry pie to go with it.
“For what it’s worth, I think the idea that Reid and company are trying to keep Illinois, the state that sent Carol Mosely-Braun, and Barack Obama, to the Senate, and has elected other African-American politicians — such as Burris! — to state office, from sending another African-American to the Senate to be very silly.”
First, what Reid is or isn’t doing is entirely separate from what Illinois is or isn’t doing. And as Gary notes, Illinois has elected Obama and Ms. Mosley-Braun to the Senate.
Second, I did not mean to imply in my earlier comments that Reid — in his fumbling of the Burris affair, and ruling out allowing anyone Blago appointed to take a Senate seat strikes me as a misplay — had any racial motives in keeping Burris out.
My only point was that Burris having the door closed on him, standing out in the rain, could send a “negative perception” (the term I used yesterday) considering the Senate — long looked at as one of America’s Old Boys Clubs — swore in 98 members yesterday, none of whom are black.
Anyhow, as I noted earlier, Reid made nice with Burris today and appears to have had a change of heart about allowing him in the Senate.
Wish I could stay on, but the wife is getting jealous of the Kitty and wants some attention upstairs.
Besides, as OCSteve (I think) noted, this thread — and a good one it was — has probably played itself out.
P.S. Signing onto my Comcast homepage a moment ago, I saw the headline: “Obama Fights to Keep Blackberry.” I know there are security concerns — and perhaps someone will write a post on this — but my initial impression of this is let the man have his precious Blackberry, maybe some blueberry pie to go with it.
Gary: You can’t logically simultaneously claim that Democrats are trying to keep African-American politicans out of the Senate and that “Democrats set the expectation that a woman would fill Clinton’s seat, and that an AA would fill Obama’s seat….”
Hmm. I’ll try to clarify one more time…
-I reject the charges in this thread that the racism swirling around the Burris appointment are Republican talking points. The racism stuff originated with, and was strictly limited to (as far as I have seen) Democrats.
-Reid opened himself up to charges of racism with that (alleged) phone call. Certainly if a Republican had done the same thing there would be plenty of charges of racism here.
-Even though the Senate and the House get to make their own rules, it is inconsistent for the Senate to attempt to reject Burris (tainted by the dude who appointed him) while the House never did much of anything concerning Jefferson (actually indicted).
-States get to choose who they send to Congress. I support that whether it is Burris, Franken, Jefferson, Sony Bono, or Charles Manson.
I don’t see why OCSteve’s ideas are contradictory in this case. It is certainly possible that Reid in the Senate could be acting in a racist fashion while Pelosi in the House might operate with different motivations. They are, in fact, different people. Politcal parties in the US often have sub-factions. It wouldn’t be shocking if one Democratic leader played more to one sub-faction and another Democratic leader played more to another sub-faction. Normally the sub-factions try to get along, but that doesn’t always happen. (See for example religious conservatives and economic conservatives).
I think there is an easier explanation however: Reid is politically tone deaf in a lot of ways and has become to power. He is confusing what he sees as right with what he actually is empowered to do.