by publius
Obama is starting to get his second wind – for the first time, he’s making aggressive and even openly partisan attacks against the stimulus opponents. To which I say – it’s about time. The Obama team has a tendency to be a few days late on tactics, but they’re pretty good when they finally get the ball rolling.
But tone aside, the substance of Obama’s new message is even more important. In this speech, for instance, he openly attacks the idea that “tax cuts alone can solve all our problems; that government doesn't have a role to play.” Elsewhere, he says “This isn't some abstract debate.” Amen to all that.
Obama’s remarks help bring into focus just how silly and trivial the cable debate has been. Listening to them, you would think this is all a big game – “Is Obama off-message . . . Does the GOP have new energy. . .” What you wouldn't realize from listening to this silly back-and-forth is that there's a very serious economic crisis out there causing real pain and anxiety to a lot of people. Demand is down a lot (accordingly to Obama and others, it’s shrinking in trillions). And so we need to act and we need to act fast.
The bill’s not perfect, but this isn’t a normal situation. Spending a lot – maybe even too much – is the whole point. That’s why I have the vague urge to dropkick Senators Collins and Nelson. Cutting state education may make them feel like better and more serious people, but they’re causing pointless delays (and God forbid we provide a bit too much money to cash-strapped states to keep people employed — that's quite clearly the more urgent danger right now).
Obama is also right to finally call the GOP out on their “false theories of the past.” It would be one thing if the GOP was joining this debate in good faith about what could actually help our country’s businesses and families. And to be fair, there are some conservative writers out there who are making substantive objections – objections that should be answered. After all, there’s no God-given right to get the stimulus passed – it has to be justified.
But those types of good faith arguments are not at all what we’re hearing from the institutional GOP and the idiot media circus these past two weeks. Let’s be clear – the GOP is proposing to do nothing other than redistribute income to the very wealthy. That’s it – that’s their plan.
The DeMint proposed amendment – which got 36 Republican votes (90% of caucus) – is a perfect illustration. (See also Brian Beutler – his regular site is here and should be on your readers and reading lists).
You might think the DeMint bill is a parody at first – the proposal of someone consciously trying to get chased out of office (think The Producers applied to politics). Indeed, in a more rational world, the DeMint proposal would be the story of the day – and an object of national ridicule.
Here are a few highlights of the very serious Jim DeMint’s proposal (borrowed from Heritage), which consists of zero spending and 100% tax cuts: (1) lower everyone’s marginal rates by 10 points; (2) lower the corporate tax rate; (3) eliminate most of the estate tax and slash the remnants; (4) make the Bush tax cuts permanent.
Needless to say, these are extremely skewed to the wealthy – almost comically so. Brookings crunched some numbers years ago on the distributional effects of making the Bush tax cuts permanent – no surprise there. The other stuff – reducing everyone’s tax rate by 10 points; slashing the estate tax – also disproportionately helps the wealthy. Even so, the bill won the support of over 90% of the Senate GOP caucus (you know, the more reasonable of the two GOP caucuses — or is it "cauci"?)
Give more money to rich people. That's their plan for stimulating our crashing economy. That's what they’ve proposed and voted for to help millions of out-of-work Americans.
Well, here’s what Senator DeMint and his Senate followers should think about – this stimulus is going to pass. And while they’ve had their fun on the cable talk shows this week, the reality is that virtually the entire Republican Party is on record voting solely for massive tax cuts for the wealthy in the face of the worst economic crisis in our lifetime. Halperin may be very impressed by the GOP’s cleverness right now. But their position is going to look a lot less clever as time goes on. I predict it will become a big liability.
All in all, it’s a very clarifying moment – and it pretty much shows the state of the modern institutional GOP at this moment in history, and where their priorities lie.
Debating in good faith?
That would require from them a debate, instead of absurd claims.
That would require faith.
Than would require good.
All three are sorely lacking from the Republicans and many commentators arguing against helping the economy.
I admit I haven’t been keeping up with the details on this, but what I really don’t get is how tax cuts are supposed to work better. People aren’t spending money right now. On top of the fact that disproportionate stimulus in favor of the rich makes no sense, how is giving people more money to not spend supposed to be superior to Government spending that’s guaranteed to create at least some jobs?
My most optimistic guess is that it’s just posturing for the masses. Demint et al want to show how fiscally responsible they are, even when it’s completely irrational. Sadly, a lot of people will buy it.
// Let’s be clear – the GOP is proposing to do nothing other than redistribute income to the very wealthy. That’s it – that’s their plan.//
Letting people keep their own money is not redistribution.
//reducing everyone’s tax rate by 10 points…also disproportionately helps the wealthy.//
How? The rates now are 10%, 15%, 25%, 28%, 33%, and 35%. DeMint’s proposal would change them to 0%, 5%, 15%, 18%, 23%, and 25%. The lower brackets get the greatest proportionate decrease.
10% is reduced 100% to 0%
15% is reduced 67% to 5%
25% is reduced 40% to 15%
28% is reduced 36% to 18%
33% is reduced 30% to 23%
35% is reduced 29% to 25%
This change makes the rates MORE progressive. I wonder if you did the math before you started frothing.
Three friends go to lunch. They order chinese and share it family style. They are so busy talking that no one notices who eats what. When the food is gone one is still hungry. The bill comes and it is for $30. Mr. A has $8 in his wallet, Ms. B has $30 in her purse, and Transgender C has $300 in his/her money clip. No one has a credit or debit card. How much should they each pay and why?
I’m halfway expecting Publius to say that if Mr. A pays anything at all then a redistribution of wealth to the rich transgender C has occured.
The purpose of a stimulus bill is to stimulate the economy. Changing income taxes will not do that. Have you ready anything on this site lately?
The whole “income taxes as a restaurant bill” analogy is simple-minded and wrong.
There’s a whole lot more on the “bill” than just income taxes. There are more ways to pay it than just with money. And, most importantly, taxes aren’t fees paid for service.
Somehow the fairness debate implied in this restaurant analogy doesn’t extent to question of why some diners have so much more money than others.
I have my doubts about “this stimulus is going to pass”. Thre are enough Senate GOPsters (and a certain Joe L and potential blue dogs)) that a filibuster could work.
That’s btw another reason why I do not understand the brouhaha about senator Gregg. Even if he was replaced by a Dem, the 60 votes to break a filibuster would be improbable to get.
And the GOP actually discusses to take the Taliban as a role model (AAAAAAArrrrgh!)
In the restaurant analogy:
One hundred people enter a room with a banquet set for one hundred.
In the modern US, just one person then gets 38% of the food: nine people then share 33% of the food between them: fifty people share 30% of the food: the remaining forty people get 1% of the food to split between them.
D’d’d’dave enters the room and complains that it is unfair that the 10 people who between them got 71% of the banquet are now expected to pay at least two-thirds of the bill, while the “lucky duckies” who got a banquet for one shared between 40, pay a mere 5% of the bill between them.
“And, most importantly, taxes aren’t fees paid for service.”
That’s just a way of saying that we’ve already decided to screw over the guy with deep pockets, so stop talking about what’s fair. Fees for service are the definitive model of a tax everybody agrees is fair: You pay for what you get, and get what you pay for. It’s departures from that model that have to be justified.
Often by crazy claims that the government is responsible for all wealth, and so any wealth you have is a government service subject to a fee. Just another crazy single factor of production theory of value, only one that out-crazys the labor theory of value.
Let’s be serious about this: The DeMint proposal is not skewed towards the wealthy, it is merely moderating slightly a tax system which is wildly skewed against the wealthy. You liberals are insanely hostile to wealth, to the point where, if somebody makes a hundred times as much, you think it’s some kind of offense against all that’s decent if they only pay a hundred times the tax. (A flat tax.)
And yet, you’re not really opposed to concentrations of wealth, you just see private sector concentrations of wealth as obstacles the ultimate concentration of wealth: Government. When it comes to government, the more concentration of wealth, the better, you think.
When it comes to government, the more concentration of wealth, the better, you think.
oh you so-called conservatives and your lame-ass mind-reading. when will you ever learn… ?
Let’s be serious about this: The DeMint proposal is not skewed towards the wealthy, it is merely moderating slightly a tax system which is wildly skewed against the wealthy.
no, let’s really be serious about this: tax cuts aren’t sufficient to address the issue at hand. DeMint is just wanking here.
Here is a wonderful paradox for you, we (include all senators and congressman) condemn the bank executives and executives from AIG for going on there retreats with rescue money but how about our politians going on retreats during these very difficult times. Are we so asleep or is it that we do not get it, it is our money they are spending in order to enjoy themselves. The first cuts in the budget needs to come from the congress´s budget and the ridiculous amount of money that they spend on themselves. Maybe if there was not so much money being given to these politians we would get people that are humbler and honest in making the decisions that so affect our lives.
Just look at one little example of how it works, AIG got the fastest action because they are the ones who underwrite the Congress´s pension and insurance policies, go figure. Look at the list of people who lost their money with Lehman Brothers, who many politians do you see on the list, ummm!!!
This change makes the rates MORE progressive.
Yes, for income tax only. And income tax is, uniquely, about the only progressive tax that folks pay. Most other taxes are either flat or regressive.
Fees for service are the definitive model of a tax everybody agrees is fair
No, everybody does not agree.
Here is what *I* think. I won’t pretend that everyone agrees with me, it’s just what *I* think.
It costs a certain amount for government to do the things we’ve decide that it should do. We pay for that with taxes. Period.
Income tax is progressive because (a) that’s a good way to raise the most money with the least harmful impact on any given person, and (b) it complies with a basic sense of fairness. Noblesse oblige, dude.
I’ll bet you $100 that more folks see it my way than yours.
Fees for service are the definitive model of a tax everybody agrees is fair: You pay for what you get, and get what you pay for.
For certain values of “everybody,” I suppose. I mean, I’ve been paying for a fire department all these years, and my house hasn’t burned down once. What a bunch of wasted money.
You liberals are insanely hostile to wealth,
This is the most insanely stupid thing I’ve ever seen you write, and that’s a pretty high hurdle to clear. Why don’t you ask noted liberal Bill Gates or Warren Buffett how they feel about wealth.
Jesurgislac is on the money, as it were.
Letting people keep their own money is not redistribution.
Fair enough, but the folks who make a lot of money are going to end up with a lot more ‘stimulus’ per person. Cutting progressive tax brackets equally is regressive. Think of the actual dollars rather than percentages.
In regards to the Stimulus controversy, some in the media, earning cushy salaries, unaffected by the impending crisis, asks what’s the rush? But, thank God, there is a new Sherrif in town as President Obama takes his fight to the people. He understands the American people are hurting and needs help NOW, found here due to greed and neglect!
Republicans’ new talking points regarding help to the people in the form of a stimulus – is that the polling shows the American people are against this Stimulus (against help)! What planet do they live on. By the day, Blue and White collar workers are losing thier jobs, homes, cars. They are resorting to food and bread lines; unemployment compensation and food stamps (by the way the GOP calls this Welfare). The American people are hurting and the GOP are playing political games — let’s damage the President, instead of putting their time and care on the crisis looming large for the American people. At least for Once!
Not unexepectedly, the GOP cry loudly, that that is not the way for Pres. Obama to win — taking it to the airwaves, (however, he tried being diplomatic and nice)! They don’t want him to fight — to Expose their phony objections and impediment to this catastrophe. They don’t want light but President Obama believes in transparency, and there is no time to lose in this situation. This patient, the U.S. economy, needs emergency care, now. Thank God, a new Sheriff is in town and President Obama is fighting for You. This country has waited long enough for a blood transfusion, and theres no time to lose!
This is not about Pork, as GOP wants you to believe — this is about the saving of our economy, our way of life. America is crumbling all around us and the GOP wants to play political games, as usual! As custodians of the people, President Obama assumed that due to the direness of the situation, Congress would Act accordingly and pass a stimulus, not try to Revive their policical party, when the country needs to be revived, for once to act selfless and put others before themselves!
We must remember, that when the GOP were in control they held no oversight hearings on anything, they did not increase the minimum wage, their concern was not about our crumbling bridges or dirty air, water, contimanted food and Ponsy Schemes that robbed people of millions.
We will know what to do in 2010.
Brett:Let’s be serious about this: The DeMint proposal is not skewed towards the wealthy,
Uh. Yes it is. If you want to argue that the tax code as modified by the DeMint’s proposal is not skewed toward the wealthy, as compared to some hypothetical flat tax, go ahead. But the way DeMint proposal modifies the tax code as compared to the way it is now is skewed toward the wealthy, and massively so.
it is merely moderating slightly a tax system which is wildly skewed against the wealthy. You liberals are insanely hostile to wealth, to the point where, if somebody makes a hundred times as much, you think it’s some kind of offense against all that’s decent if they only pay a hundred times the tax.
Then explain to me how the highest 400 individual earners who filed income tax returns in 2006 in the United States paid tax at an effective rate of just over 17%? Tell me how skewed the tax code is against these 400 people, who’s average adjusted gross income in 2006 was $263,306,000 and earned 1.31% of all adjusted gross income in the whole of the United States?
why are we listening to Republicans anyway? they are the ones that got us into this mess in the first place.
To d’d’d’dave (did I get the number of d’s correct?) @ 2:27am…(and russell @ 8:41am who conceded the point that this makes the tax scale more progressive).
This argument has hit a personal pet peeve of mine in quantitative analysis. The percent change of a percent MAKES NO SENSE.
The best way to point out the flaw is by example. Let’s look at d’d’d’dave’s tax rate argument. He looks at the percent reduction in the percent of income that is paid in taxes. Now, suppose instead that I want to look at the percent increase in the percent of income that is kept after taxes.
By simply inverting the question, the percentage of income currently kept by income bracket (lowest to highest) is 90%, 85%, 75%, 72%, 67%, and 65%. Under the proposed changes, the amount kept would now be 100%, 95%, 85%, 82%, 77%, and 75%.
So, what can we say about this change. By d’d’d’dave’s logic, the lowest income earners have increased their post-tax income from 90% to 100% of their gross wages. This is an increase of 11%. However, the highest income earners have increased their post-tax income from 65% to 75% which is an increase of over 15%.
Now, who is correct? Is the tax rate made more progressive as d’d’d’dave argues or is it more regressive based on my analysis?
This is a classic example of a bad use of numbers. While there may be contexts where it makes sense to talk about a percent change of a percentage (though I can’t really think of any), this is definitely NOT one of them. A 10% change in tax rate is a 10% change for everyone…Simply, the change in the amount of money you have or the change in the amount of money you pay as a percentage of your income is 10% no matter how you slice it.
Sorry if this came off as too much of a scolding rant, but this really is a big pet peeve of mine, and it’s used surprisingly often in policy discussions.
America is crumbling all around us and the GOP wants to play political games, as usual!
Just so. The only viable political strategy for the GOP is to oppose the bill and hope it fails.
If they support the bill, and it succeeds, it is a victory for the Democrats.
If they support the bill, and it fails, they get tarred with the Dems.
If they oppose the bill, and it succeeds, it is a victory for the Democrats.
If they oppose the bill, and it fails, it is the only scenario in which the GOP achieves a political victory.
I think d’d’d’dave makes some quite sound debating points – and yet I agree with publius’ position. I justify this to myself as follows. “Rich people”, by their nature, have the ability to redistribute other people’s wealth to themselves, and only partly due to their innate abilities. In fact, mostly due to things like leverage, economy of scale, and so on. (E.g., Bill Gates had access to a PDP-11 in high school, the other 99.9999% of us at that time and age did not.) Left unchecked, they have a tendency to create monopolies (like Microsoft) and turn the middle class back into serfs. Therefore, doing nothing to counter this tendency is de facto wealth redistribution.
(None of which is on-topic, just one debating point replying to another.)
President Obama has been quite good on his term. There has just been minimal mistakes but they are solvable. We’ll just hope the people that he assigned on the positions will also do their jobs. I can see that he is trying to do his best to make USA better and solve the problems. But problems don’t just get solved in a day, week or months. It really takes time and of course he also needs the help of the people around him and our help as well.
If they oppose the bill, and it fails, it is the only scenario in which the GOP achieves a political victory.
correct.
also… recently, many conservatives pundits and bloggers have been saying that we need a good deep recession to lower wages, weed out the bad loans, reset our expectations, etc.. so, it’s not so surprising that someone who thinks a recession will be a good for us, like a nice cleansing hot-coffee colonic, they might be hoping the bill fails and the economy drops even more. they don’t like the spending and don’t think we need to prevent a deeper recession anyway.
we should just tighten our belts and ride it out.
” After all, there’s no God-given right to get the stimulus passed – it has to be justified.”
yes, and I think the point of obama’s speech was to show the congressional numbskulls how to do it. obama is only *one* person. the bill was written by *congress*. there are 255 dems in the house and 56 in the senate. where the hell have they been?
The problem with anonymousinMA’s argument is that progressivity in taxation is not commonly viewed in terms of what percentage of income a taxpayer keeps (since it is their money) but rather in terms of what percentage they pay.
cleek, to add to your thought about some conservatives thinking we need a good deep recession. When confronted with the individual suffering it entails, they will respond that some sacrifice and suffering is needed (though of course the wealthy really aren’t doing either) and there is a sense I get from some that those who are suffering the most somehow deserve it.
I am not saying they come out and say that directly, just that it is a sense I got.
AnonymousinMA pointed out the fallacy in dave’s argument quite well.
And nobody has yet answered my question as to how tax cuts, rebates, credits will provide a jolt to the economy.
Hey, look, here’s another crazy liberal who’s opposed to wealth: Reed Hastings, CEO of Netflix. His company posted gross profits of $419 million for FY08, so he clearly hates wealth. What does he have to say?
So, doesn’t like the compensation cap, but thinks incomes over $1 million should be taxed at 50%. Also supports russell’s recent comments that most execs do it for the thrill of the game, not the compensation.
Crazy liberals.
Would anyone here argue that the liberals have not prevailed or succeeded in their preference for an income tax system that is progressive? Maybe rather than always objecting to any reduction in the tax paid by those who actually pay the taxes, the liberals should actually state outright what levels of taxation each potential taxpayer should pay. Then we could debate.
Fees for service are the definitive model of a tax everybody agrees is fair: You pay for what you get, and get what you pay for.
Asoundingly simple minded. I mean, even in the rugged individualistic Wild West of yore, this conception wouldn’t have worked. No, everyone doesn’t agree. In fact, in the real world almost NO ONE agrees.
It is a very great luxury to adhere to a philosophy which is, strictly speaking, impossible. Frankly, it’s also fatuous.
If I believe (really truly, sincerely believe, a la Jiminy Cricket) that if everyone in this country thought about certain angels at the exact same nanosecond every day for a month, we could all levitate, you couldn’t ever definitively prove me wrong, could you?
For god’s sake, there’s a time to suffer fools and there’s a time not to. (Put me down as very impatient with Team Obama.) Although it cuts both ways, you can say that at least Brett really seems to believe in this foolishness, which is not the case for all the Republicans in the Senate.
// Cutting progressive tax brackets equally is regressive. Think of the actual dollars rather than percentages.//
So, thinking of taxes rather than food and using the pocketbooks of the lunch companions as an example, C would pay the first $70 until he/she had only $30 left. Then C and B would split the next $44 between them equally, leaving each of the three with $8 apiece.
C will have paid $92, B will have paid $22, and A would’ve paid $0.
And you believe this model is ‘fair’?
I sincerely wonder how you come to this belief? When you were a child and two friends came over did you divide your toys in thirds and let them each take a third home? When you went to a friends house and saw they had more than you did you take a share from them to equalize it all? I’m not joking here. I’m seriously trying to figure out how one goes from real life experiences and arrives at this view of ‘fair’? Please don’t answer by pointing at what others have experienced – I understand there is tragedy in the world. I want to know how you’ve arrived at it from your personal experience. And I want to know how you live that theory of ‘fair’ in your own life with your own time, your own money and your own money. Do you come home every day with as much money in your pocket as the poorest one you saw that day? If not, why not?
GOB: Would anyone here argue that the liberals have not prevailed or succeeded in their preference for an income tax system that is progressive?
How progressive is an income tax when the top 400 individual taxpayers pay tax at a 17% rate? Which is just above the 15% rate for people making between $8k and 32.5k per year, and 8% below the 25% rate for people making between 32.5K and 78.8K per year.
I’m seriously trying to figure out how one goes from real life experiences and arrives at this view of ‘fair’? Please don’t answer by pointing at what others have experienced – I understand there is tragedy in the world. I want to know how you’ve arrived at it from your personal experience.
Wait, so the only way one can form an opinion is by experiencing something personally? I guess we can ignore away your opinion on anything you haven’t experienced personally then, right?
If they oppose the bill, and it fails, it is the only scenario in which the GOP achieves a political victory.
incorrect
oppose the bill, and it…doesn’t matter. declare it a failure, start now and continue for seventy years.
I do like how (some) conservatives/republicans all love to point to economics when arguing that high marginal tax rates discourage work, and then forget all about other aspects of economics, such as the marginal utility of income, when arguing for what’s “fair.”
This is sheer nonsense at best, malicious innumeracy at worst:
And AnonymousInMA is correct with this:
Speaking as a teacher of mathematics, this too is a peeve of mine. You cannot in general take averages of averages, percent changes of percent changes, etc. You can make yet another argument invoking differing amounts of taxation on the same amount of income: you can ‘cut taxes in half’ by cutting a 10% rate to 5%, a 20% rate to 10%. On $50,000 this works out to a difference of $2,500 in the first case versus %5,000 in the second. In no way are these two figures comparable. And there is yet another way to make the comparison: raise taxes from 0% to 1% on $20,000, and from 10% to 90% on $200,000. The person making $20K pays a $200 difference, the person Making $200K pays $160,000 difference. But the first person had an infinite tax increase, the second a mere 800%! (That’s a hint as to what’s going on here).
The only way to compare rate changes that is consistent – for very good reasons – is to use percentage differences, not percentage ratios. This is covered in elementary statistics classes, so either this Dave character is simply regurgitating talking points with no sense of how absurd they are, or he knows damn well just how nonsensical it is, but is hoping someone will swallow the bait.
dave, what’s your opinion on the death penalty, based only on what you’ve experienced personally?
ScentOfViolets: so either this Dave character is simply regurgitating talking points with no sense of how absurd they are, or he knows damn well just how nonsensical it is, but is hoping someone will swallow the bait.
Say… you’re new around here, aren’t you?
(Which is to say: well, yeah, but we never know which is which.)
//We must remember, that when the GOP were in control they held no oversight hearings on anything//
Really? Between 1994 and 2006, the house held no oversight hearings?
//contimanted food and Ponsy Schemes//
dave, what’s your opinion on the death penalty, based only on what you’ve experienced personally?
or, what’s your opinion on the estate tax, based only on what you’ve experienced personally?
I would also note that the so-called party of life is incentivizing people to die by lowering the estate tax. Hypocrites.
According to wikipedia “A progressive tax is a tax by which the tax rate increases as the taxable amount increases.”
The rates now are 10%, 15%, 25%, 28%, 33%, and 35%. DeMint’s proposal would change them to 0%, 5%, 15%, 18%, 23%, and 25%. The lower brackets get the greatest proportionate decrease.
If you plot these on a curve you will see that the second set of rates rises more steeply.
AnonymousinMA says:
//This argument has hit a personal pet peeve of mine in quantitative analysis. The percent change of a percent MAKES NO SENSE.//
and //Now, who is correct? Is the tax rate made more progressive as d’d’d’dave argues or is it more regressive based on my analysis?//
Mr/Ms Anonymous, you sir/ma’am are incorrect.
//Sorry if this came off as too much of a scolding rant, but this really is a big pet peeve of mine, and it’s used surprisingly often in policy discussions.//
Apparently you are wrong ‘surprisingly often in policy discussions.”
Also re taxes:
Let’s make payroll taxes progressive; take off the cap on SSN/Medicare taxes, so that any income has to pay the same % of these as a portion of their income.
However, since these items are a safety net, and not meant for a posh retirement, keep the maximum payout at the current levels. Just in case, say, an ex-top 400 ends up penniless, so they don’t have to subsist on failed investments. How much would this add to SSN/Medicare funding?
JimV
// Left unchecked, they have a tendency to create monopolies (like Microsoft) and turn the middle class back into serfs.//
Microsoft is a bad example for you to use IMHO. Despite their monopolism, they did more to advance the productivity and value of the common man than nearly anyone. Their software facilitated the spread of computers to the common man which vastly improved the common man’s ability to accomplish things.
The stimulus, if it works, will be the first part of the second New Deal. The original New Deal rendered the GOP irrelevant for decades, so it’s no wonder they’re against it.
Perhaps President Obama should give the American people a 1933 history lesson.
//AnonymousinMA pointed out the fallacy in dave’s argument quite well.//
Fcnhing math illiterates can’t even count and they want to lecture on economics!
Dave, who is arguing for taxing everyone to the point that after-tax incomes are equalized? The answer of course is “No one”, so how are you doing anything but being disruptive by bringing up such idiocy?
You’re assuming that without the monopolism there wouldn’t have been other companies doing the same better. I thought conservatives were supposed to believe in the virtues of competition.
//How progressive is an income tax when the top 400 individual taxpayers pay tax at a 17% rate? Which is just above the 15% rate for people making between $8k and 32.5k per year, and 8% below the 25% rate for people making between 32.5K and 78.8K per year.//
Ugh. You’ve mixed apples and oranges here. You are comparing the 17% effective rate on all income earned to the 15% and 25% marginal rates on some income earned.
If you compare effective rates on all income earned for all income strata you’ll see that the effective rates are indeed progressive.
Another, fcnking math illiterate.
I’ve got to head to a meeting now or else I would post a link a chart that shows this.
Let’s see . . . a guy who claims to be a math teacher says AnonymousinMA is correct. Another guy who claims to own trailer parks says he is not. Someone help me decide who to listen to!
Why is there so much resistance in Congress to the stimulus? Maybe because the people are speaking and the elected ones are listening.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/04/voter.anger/index.html
Maybe because the people are speaking and the elected ones are listening.
yes yes, Grover Norquist has a list of people who are eager to call and whine about whatever topic he wants. BFD.
I probably shouldn’t respond/engage, but:
d’d’d’dave said:
“The rates now are 10%, 15%, 25%, 28%, 33%, and 35%. DeMint’s proposal would change them to 0%, 5%, 15%, 18%, 23%, and 25%. The lower brackets get the greatest proportionate decrease.
If you plot these on a curve you will see that the second set of rates rises more steeply.”
Really?? While there are certainly non-euclidean geometries where this may be true, for most of us, adding an offset doesn’t change the slope of a curve. It, surprisingly, just adds an offset.
Also, to clarify, in case it wasn’t clear…I was not making the argument that the DeMint proposal is regressive – I was simply making the point that the two complementary analyses lead to exactly opposite conclusions which suggests that the analysis is at fault. In fact, it should be clear that the DeMint proposal doesn’t make the tax code more or less progressive than it already is. It simply reduces everyone’s tax burden by 10%.
That being said, I would be quite interested to see d’d’d’dave actually defend his math rather than simply posit that several of us are math illiterate.
Maybe because the people are speaking and the elected ones are listening.
What a bunch of damned fools they be. It’s going to be entertaining watching the country tear itself apart in the coming years over shortages on just about everything except worthless dollars. It’s not what you don’t know that gets you, it’s what you know that ain’t so.
The rates now are 10%, 15%, 25%, 28%, 33%, and 35%. DeMint’s proposal would change them to 0%, 5%, 15%, 18%, 23%, and 25%. The lower brackets get the greatest proportionate decrease.
If you plot these on a curve you will see that the second set of rates rises more steeply.
O RLY?
Call us all math illiterates some more, dave. It’s funny.
fledermaus,
I can see what you describe some distance in the future, but at present are we not facing a serious demand destruction resulting in a shortage of nothing except jobs?
If you compare effective rates on all income earned for all income strata you’ll see that the effective rates are indeed progressive.
Another, fcnking math illiterate.
The effective federal rate of someone who makes $100,000 working for his employer is 22%. 5% less than the top 400.
Would you try that again, Ugh?
The DeMint proposal is not skewed towards the wealthy, it is merely moderating slightly a tax system which is wildly skewed against the wealthy. You liberals are insanely hostile to wealth,
I’m not hostile to wealth. What I am hostile to is the creation of a hereditary aristocracy that has extremely low tax rates. That’s exactly what proposals like DeMint’s, and other Republican ideas, tend to create.
This isn’t hard. Reduce or eliminate estate taxes. Reduce or eliminate taxes on investment income. What do you think the consequences are? I suppose next we’ll see a Constitutional amendment allowing for the creation of dukedoms and whatnot.
Bernard,
Why shouldn’t everyone have extremely low tax rates?
Care to provide a cite for that last assertion? I think you’re confusing effective average tax rates with effective marginal rates. The effective average tax rates are more regressive, because the highest earners take a much larger proportion of that income in capital gains than do people lower on the totem pole. Capital gains are taxed at a considerably lower rate than standard income, so the more capital gains as a percentage of total income, the lower the average tax rate. At least, this is my laymans understanding. Any of the resident tax experts care to comment?
Because some of us don’t want to live in feudal Europe?
but at present are we not facing a serious demand destruction resulting in a shortage of nothing except jobs?
That’s just the start of things. I perfectly willing to be wrong on this but I just don’t see it. Naturally it goes without saying that I’m a fan of Dmitry Orlov, who theorizes that the US is about to go thought the same thing that happened to the USSR – the only difference being that the Russian people were better prepared to deal with the collapse.
Larv is correct. A good reason to treat all income the same and tax it at an extremely low rate.
GOB, Ugh is saying that someone making $100,000 pays 25% of that in federal income tax, whereas the 400 richest American taxpayers (who average $263 million a year) are paying 17%. Dave’s claim that “the effective rates are indeed progressive” is not true.
Then explain to me how the highest 400 individual earners who filed income tax returns in 2006 in the United States paid tax at an effective rate of just over 17%? Tell me how skewed the tax code is against these 400 people, who’s average adjusted gross income in 2006 was $263,306,000 and earned 1.31% of all adjusted gross income in the whole of the United States?
It’s really quite simple: Those 400 people didn’t enjoy significantly more in services than any random 400 people. Why the heck should they pay more than any random 400 people? Because they’ve got it? That’s just Willie Sutton’s reasoning: You rob the bank because that’s where the money is.
Forget all these rationalizations for progressive taxation: It’s really nothing more than a vote buying strategy: Politicians buy votes by handing out largess, they lose votes by taxing, so they optimize the yield of votes by taxing as few as possible to pay as many as possible. The only reasons the tax system isn’t even more ‘progressive’ is that politicians have learned not to kill the golden goose by pushing rates too high, and the wealthy have means of pressuring politicians besides voting against them.
And do some wealthy people support high rates of taxation? Yup: They’ve got it made, they want to pull the ladder up behind them.
Wow, all the libral blogers here really are showing their wealth envy at every post here. It is the wealthy that spend money, create jobs and build corporations. I have never received a paycheck from a poor person. What the President and dems are doing is nothing more than fear mongering again. Trying to scare the American people into choking down this 900 billion dollar elephant, complete with all the earmarks and special interest projects the Dems have been trying to pass for the last 20 years. Frisbee parks, museums, re sodding the lawn at the national mall. etc. What a bunch of bunk, that has no stimulus effect. These do not create jobs or business. They simply put people to work to do a individual, non repeating job… then what? This has been tried before. The result was small help to the economy, then back to the same deficit. These are thing that are NOT economically stimulative.
Want to pass this? Take out all the pork and programs included that do not spend out (30-40% of this package) until the 3rd or 4th year (hmmmm…election time, really convenient).
The President wants to complain about the deficit he inherited. Let’s be clear he inherited a 700 billion dollar deficit from Bush and now wants to pass a bill that costs over a trillion with interest. And yet another pork laden bill to follow!Garbage.
KCinDC,
I’m not quarreling with what Ugh is trying to say but with what he, in fact, said. Read his post again.
but at present are we not facing a serious demand destruction resulting in a shortage of nothing except jobs?
Curses, last comment got eated. This is just the start of things. Things are going to get far, far worse. We don’t make anything in this country and the stuff we do have is made to break a few years down the road (planned obselesence).
Naturally it goes without saying that I a fan of James Kunstler and Dmitry Orlov who theorizes that the US is about to undergo the same thing that happened to the Russia when the soviet empire fell. The only difference being that the US is not a prepared as the Russians were.
all the libral blogers here really are showing their wealth envy at every post here.
WTF is “wealth envy” ?
It is the wealthy that spend money, create jobs and build corporations. I have never received a paycheck from a poor person.
if you squint, you can almost see the excluded middle between “wealthy” and “poor”. almost.
These do not create jobs or business. They simply put people to work to do a individual, non repeating job… then what?
then all the money the workers have earned and spent on supplies goes into the economy. do you think they’re just going to bury the cash under the new sod?
KCinDC – I did screw up comparing marginal vs. effective rates in that comment (but I would still expect the effective rate of someone making $263,000,000 to be higher than the marginal rate on someone who made $33,000).
GOB – per the cite I link above, if you make $47,000 in ordinary income, your effective rate is 17.22%, equal to someone who makes $263,000,000, or more than 5,500 times as much. Something is seriously wrong with that picture and, as you note, Larv put his/her finger on it.
Those 400 people didn’t enjoy significantly more in services than any random 400 people.
I’m going to need a cite for this, because I bet they did.
And do some wealthy people support high rates of taxation? Yup: They’ve got it made, they want to pull the ladder up behind them.
Yeah, if not for our tax rates, you’d be the CEO of Netflix, or chairman of Berkshire Hathaway.
You can move to Liberia or Zimbabwe anytime you want, you know.
And do some wealthy people support high rates of taxation? Yup: They’ve got it made, they want to pull the ladder up behind them.
more of that fantastic conservative mind-reading!
Why the heck should they pay more than any random 400 people?
Why the heck should 0.000133% of the US population pay more for consuming 1.31% of all AGI? Is this a serious question?
This gets it backwards.
I would in fact argue that higher rates of taxation for the rich promotes economic mobility; they are arguing the exact opposite of pulling up the ladder–they’re making it easier for the lower class to move to the middle, the middle to the upper. As a result, the upper have to worka bit harder to stay where they are.
Brett: It’s really quite simple: Those 400 people didn’t enjoy significantly more in services than any random 400 people. Why the heck should they pay more than any random 400 people?
Even granting your premise, how, exactly, are we to suss out what someone who made $263,000,000 enjoyed in government services? Presumably they made a good chunk of that cash by selling stock in a corporation, which itself certainly enjoyed a considerable amount of services, can I attribute those services to the individual? What value do we place on the services the individual would have received if, e.g., he/she had to go to court to enforce the stock option contract that provided him with the millions of dollars in gains in the first place? Etc. etc. etc.
OK, it’s time to run the voodoo down.
Yes, taxes in the US are moderately progressive. If you think they are more than moderately progressive, you need to look at any OECD nation other than us, and/or our own historical marginal rates.
We have a moderately progressive income tax.
Here is the argument for a progressive income tax:
You need money to run the normal operations of government. That money is raised through taxation. You need to find a way to allocate the taxes such that enough money is raised, and not too much pain is caused.
For poorer people, each dollar of tax levied is more likely to come from some essential item — food, clothing, shelter. Ouch! Painful.
For richer people, each dollar of tax levied is more likely to come from some non-essential item — luxury goods, vacations, etc. Not so painful.
So, you tax richer people at a somewhat higher rate.
Bonus points for anyone who knows where that argument first appears in modern economic literature. Hint: it isn’t Karl Marx.
The reason we don’t have very low taxes is because we have an expensive government. The reason we have an expensive government can be answered quite briefly:
Social Security
Medicaid
DOD and the GWOT
Debt service
Those items taken together are about 60% of the federal budget. Every other damned thing the government does, good bad or indifferent, is funded from the other 40%. Don’t believe me, go look it up.
If you want a less expensive federal government, get rid of those things. Everything else is nibbling around the edges. To get rid of these things, you will have to convince a pretty solid majority of your fellow citizens that they, too, should want to get rid of those things.
That will be a very, very tough sell. The entitlements are very popular programs, and not because we are a nation of dependent weaklings. They’re popular because they are useful, helpful programs. The DoD budget will be hard to cut because of the phenonemal number of people in this country who are, directly or indirectly, employed by the the defense industry, and because we’re all afraid of the bad, bad Muslims who want to cut our throats in our sleep.
We can’t cut debt service or the Chinese will turn out the lights.
So, if cutting the size of government is your goal, good luck to you.
If you don’t want to, or cannot, get rid of those things, pony up. If can do so graciously, all the better. If not, you’re gonna have to pony up nonetheless.
The only question — the one and only question — that is worth asking about DeMint’s proposal is whether reallocating money from the government to private use via taxes will result in a greater stimulus to the economy that doing so through spending.
I believe that question has been answered, and the answer is “no”.
Bonus points for anyone who knows where that argument first appears in modern economic literature
Adam Smith.
Dirty Pinko that he was.
Regardless of whether some conservatives are expressing themselves awkwardly regarding the need for a recession and why it is to be expected, some of the numbers do indicate we are in an environment not experienced before.
Since during the boom, savings rates in the US were negative (except in the eyes of those who thought their investment equity represented savings) when we went seriously into the downturn we had several groups. Those who had no savings could not spend a reserve to help them get through these hard times because they had no reserve. Those who have real cash savings and are unemployed are spending at a lower level. Those who are employed (whether they have real cash savings or not) are saving at a higher rate and spending less. This set of circumstances works against pulling out of the recession. It is the opposite of what has occurred historically because people in the past had reserves to spend when times got bad. So we need a stimulus.
GOB:
Right, exactly! This is why few people bother applying for tax credits. After all, these aren’t going to do one solitary thing to reduce the amount of taxes they owe, so why should they care? So what if they get to keep more of their income… the amount of taxes levied on that income hasn’t changed hasn’t changed!
When we get through arguing about the relative effects of tax cuts and stimulus spending for job creation and jump-starting the economy and, I hope, get the economy going again, we will have a lessons learned session.
Those of us who had investment equity and liquid savings at the start of this downturn will probably have a less devastating experience on average than those of us who had neither or those of us who had investment equity but no liquid savings.
For more years than I can remember financial advisors have been lamenting the lack of savings ethic in the US to little avail. In fact, I know many people, mostly much younger than I, who ‘had’ substantial investment equity (real estate or other) before the start of the housing downtown, but don’t have much now. If they still are gainfully employed, they may be getting by. If not, they are probably in the group that is really suffering.
These recessions generally must be experienced by those who will never accept the advice of people who actually have experience. This is one of the benefits of getting old.
GOB: “So we need a stimulus.” Hey we are actually agreeing on something.
GOB: “When we get through arguing about the relative effects of tax cuts and stimulus spending for job creation and jump-starting the economy”
The problem here is that nobody is arguing about the effects of tax cuts as a stimulus. Some have said tax cuts is the way to go, but I could just as effectively say “have everybody hold their breath for 5 minutes” is the way to go.”
I still haven’t seen one argument based on factual data that says tax cuts or rebates or credits is the better way to go. Arguments have been made, based upon factual data, icnluding from CBO, that spending is the better way to go.
Regarding savings, I agree. This country has always lagged behind other countries in personal savings. Okay, always is an exaggeration. But particularly in the past several years, with income having actually decreased, that has become even more of a problem. Providing some incentive for personal savings (as opposed to investing) who possibly help, once people actually have money to save. Some countries do not tax interest on personal savings. perhaps that would help.
I do not pretend to have an actual answer to that.
For more years than I can remember financial advisors have been lamenting the lack of savings ethic in the US to little avail.
our financial-planner-invested investments are down 35% over last year. it’s not his fault, of course – my own self-directed 401k is down almost 50% (and i’m sure everybody else has similar numbers). still, i’m glad we declined to invest the cash we had sitting in CDs, as he asked us to. it’s not much cash, but it’s ever-so-slightly more cash today than it was a year ago.
about the only good thing to come from the stock market deflation is that it put a giant red stake through the heart of the GOP’s privatized Social Security nonsense. hell, the current market makes even the 401k scheme look silly.
By the way, did everyone notice that Brett — who, again, got his dudgeon all up when publius accused Republicans of acting in bad faith — stated early on that “liberals hate private wealth,” then was confronted with several extremely wealthy liberals who think their taxes should be a lot higher, so accused them of . . . arguing in bad faith?
Providing some incentive for personal savings (as opposed to investing) who possibly help, once people actually have money to save.
Maybe being able to earn a return on savings on the high side of 2 percent (rather than the low side) would give people a bigger incentive to save.
It is going to be very hard to create structural incentives to save so long as we have an economy where consumption is 70 percent of aggregate demand and our monetary policy is geared towards keeping that up. Until such time as we restructure our economy so consumption doesn’t completely dominate GDP, the only thing which will encourage people to save is pure fear.
Also, regarding the whole tax rate debate, what russell said at 1:04pm
ThatLeftTurninABQ,
Would you be arguing for a consumption tax instead of an income tax?
Well, the Democrats’ earlier abject groveling to Lieberman was certainly worth it. On the stimulus, he’s voting with them less than Snowe and Collins are, and this is a domestic issue not related to “homeland security” — which means he’s supposedly not outside the Democratic mainstream on it. Is the guy really planning to run for reelection?
One of the main reasons that the savings rate in the US has been so miserable is that real wages for most of the population have been stagnant for the past 30 years while the typical consumer’s costs for things like education, energy and health care have soared.
So setting aside the moral/ethical arguments for progressivity in the tax code, there is an important practical reason for some redistribution of wealth through taxation/government expenditure: it keeps the market economy functioning. The lower and middle classes not only don’t have the money to save more, they don’t have the money to consume more either, unless they go into huge debt, as they have been for the past 5-10 years. At least in the absence of labor law more tilted toward labor against management/capital they don’t.
The deleterious effects of vast disparities in wealth are not limited to the occasional sense of injustice felt by the lower and middle classes. There are huge macroeconomic imbalances that result from huge wealth disparities in demand economies. Here is Marriner Eccles, FDR’s Treasury Secretary, reflecting on what he saw as the cause of the Great Crash and Depression:
————————————
“As mass production has to be
accompanied by mass consumption, mass consumption, in turn, implies a distribution of wealth — not of existing wealth, but of wealth as it is currently produced — to provide men with buying power equal to the amount of goods and services offered by the nation’s economic machinery.
Instead of achieving that kind of distribution, a giant suction pump had by 1929-30 drawn into a few hands an increasing portion of currently produced wealth. This served them as capital accumulations. But by taking purchasing power out of the hands of mass consumers, the savers denied to themselves the kind of effective demand for their products that would justify a reinvestment of their capital accumulations in new plants. In consequence, as in a poker game where the chips were concentrated in fewer and fewer hands, the other fellows could stay in the game only by borrowing. When their credit ran out, the game stopped.
That is what happened to us in the twenties. We sustained high levels of employment in that period with the aid of an exceptional expansion of debt outside of the banking system. This debt was provided by the large growth of business savings as well as savings by individuals, particularly in the upper-income groups where taxes were relatively low. Private debt outside of the banking system increased about fifty per cent. This debt, which was at high interest rates, largely took the form of mortgage debt on housing, office, and hotel structures, consumer installment debt, brokers’ loans, and foreign debt. The stimulation to spend by debt-creation of this sort was short-lived and could not be counted on to sustain high levels of employment for long periods of time. Had there been a better distribution of the current income from the national product — in other words, had there been less savings by business and the higher-income groups and more income in the lower groups — we should have had far greater stability in our economy. Had the six billion dollars, for instance, that were loaned by corporations and wealthy individuals for stock-market speculation been distributed to the public as lower prices or higher wages and with less profits to the corporations and the well-to-do, it would have prevented or greatly moderated the economic collapse that began at the end of 1929.
The time came when there were no more poker chips to be loaned on credit. Debtors thereupon were forced to curtail their consumption in an effort to create a margin that could be applied to the reduction of outstanding debts. This naturally reduced the demand for goods of all kinds and brought on what seemed to be overproduction, but was in reality underconsumption when judged in terms of the real world instead of the money world. This, in turn, brought about a fall in prices and employment.
Unemployment further decreased the consumption of goods, which further increased unemployment, thus closing the circle in a continuing decline of prices. Earnings began to disappear, requiring economies of all kinds in the wages, salaries, and time of those employed. And thus again the vicious circle of deflation was closed until one third of the entire working population was unemployed, with our national income reduced by fifty per cent, and with the aggregate debt burden greater than ever before, not in dollars, but measured by current values and income that represented the ability to pay. Fixed charges, such as taxes, railroad and other utility rates, insurance and interest charges, clung close to the 1929 level and required such a portion of the national income to meet them that the amount left for consumption of goods was not sufficient to support the population.
This then, was my reading of what brought on the depression.”
—————————–
It sounds plausible to me. It also sounds eerily similar to the conditions that have been developed over the past 20-30 years.
Lewis – great comment.
Excuse me, I have to rant now.
The notion that taxes on wealthy individuals are too high and the way to avert an economic disaster is to decrease them further is insane. We have seen the result of a policy of low taxes on the wealthy and a laissez faire approach to economics and it is not pretty. Does anyone besides Dick Cheney even believe there actually was a “Bush boom”? 2005 was OK, not great. Now we are staring into the abyss. C’thrugman is eloquent on this subject and he is no longer a voice in the wilderness.
Bernard Yomtov: What I am hostile to is the creation of a hereditary aristocracy that has extremely low tax rates.
And what did they do with all that tax cut money? Create productive economic activity? No. People wanted guaranteed high returns with no risk. How did Bernie Madoff convince people to give him money to “invest?” Why did Wall Street invent “sure thing” derivatives that nobody understood but yielded great growth and big bonuses for the financial geniuses?
George W. Bush is the exemplar of this attitude, a man who never made an honest living in his life. He was proud of his ignorance, his C average, his failed businesses.
Except for destroying Social Security, President Bush and the GOP got every thing they asked for and we are now holding the bag.
Second that on Lewis’ comment. What seems to missing from the Math Wars is a discussion of what tax rates will actually work to prevent or mitigate the scenario described in Lewis’ post. It’s not that I personally hate wealth. It’s that I think an over-concentration of wealth is bad for everyone because it’s bad for the whole system. No one I’ve read here is advocating marginal rates approaching 100%, and certainly not exceeding 100%. That seems to be lost here. If you make more money, you still make more money. Why would wealth-haters advocate such a thing.
And if I hated wealth so much, why would I waste my periods when I could use cheaper question marks.
George W. Bush did stand up and tout the concept of an ownership society and he promoted the so-called American dream of home ownership, but, the fact is, most of what he did about this was talk. It took plenty of others to facilitate the process that led to the bubble in residential real estate, which fed the credit cycle, that then burst and started this meltdown.
We can make a list, and name names, and it will include people of all political persuasions and all walks of life. Anyone posting here will probably not have to stray far from their workplace or home neighborhood to find examples of the behaviors that got us where we are.
I’m seriously trying to figure out how one goes from real life experiences and arrives at this view of ‘fair’?
d’d’d’dave, your scenario doesn’t match the situation at hand, but others have addressed that. And russell did a nice job above of explaining the practicality of a progressive system. You’re wondering how I came to believe that it could be fair for the haves to provide for the have-nots, based on personal experience.
Well, in MY life, when I was a child and couldn’t provide for myself, my parents provided for me. Everyone who survived infancy experienced that horribly unfair scenario. If you want an adult monetary example, when I was in college I got Pell Grants — that money was WAY more valuable to me then than it is now. Then, it was tuition so I could get an education — now it’d be a nicer TV or more savings.
Regarding the math, both sides are right. But the move would be regressive because you’re cutting more tax dollars for the rich than for the poor. The remaining set of tax rates is still progressive (arguably more so, as the ratio of income taxes paid by the rich will increase), but the CUT is regressive. As I said before, think in terms of dollars – John the Dishwasher will save about $1,000 while ARod saves at least $2,000,000.
George W. Bush did stand up and tout the concept of an ownership society and he promoted the so-called American dream of home ownership, but, the fact is, most of what he did about this was talk. It took plenty of others to facilitate the process that led to the bubble in residential real estate, which fed the credit cycle, that then burst and started this meltdown.
This is not really an accurate accounting of recent history.
The problem was not people seeking to facilitate home ownership. Some questionable loans were made to people without the means to pay for them, but they were a small fraction of the foreclosures.
Further, the real meltdown came from credit default swaps, CDOs and other forms of securitization of mortgages that had almost zero to do with promoting an ownership society and everything to do with making a quick buck on the back of a reckless scheme that soon became a frenzy.
Come now, Eric. Just what is it that makes a mortgage backed security trading in the marketplace lose its value?
Eric,
I can agree with you in this way. If secondary mortgage market facilitators like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac had not accepted high risk mortgages and then packaged them into mortgage-backed bonds, which then became instruments the speculators on Wall Street could go crazy with, then we might not have this big of a meltdown.
When a local mortgage lender makes a high risk residential loan, whether that lender is a mortgage broker, mortgage banker, or a depositary institution, if they are not able to sell it at close to par because of the high risk, then they will not be able to repeat this behavior over and over.
Come now, GOB, the impact of foreclosures would be mildly painful but really just a hiccup were it not for the $600 trillion (yes, that’s the actual dollar amount) in mortgage backed securities obligations that are floating about the marketplace.
$600 trillion.
And, no, Bush’s ownership society gimmik had zero to do with the decision to securitize them. That was the glimmer of fools gold to a whole bunch of bankers.
And, also completely unrelated to Bush’s ownership shtick, the ratings agencies decided to give a whole bunch of the worst of that lot AAA ratings. And then take the worst of the newly classified junk and give THAT AAA ratings.
So, basically, no.
The pain from some mortgage defaults would be really just a drop in the ocean ($1.2 trillion for the lot of em). A standard, cyclical economic event. Painful, sure, but not cataclysmic.
It’s that $600 trillion that’s got the whole world’s attention. The one that threatens a global depression.
(PS: The vast majority of mortgage’s that have been defaulted on are held by middle class and wealthier homeowners, not the putative targets of the ownership society, but those already “in the own,” so to speak.)
And Dave reveals his fundamental innumeracy; from his phrasing, it’s clear that he’s confusing rates with changes in rates. Yes, it’s true that there is a relationship between velocity, which is a rate, and acceleration, which is a change in rate. But in general, the velocity of an object doesn’t really have much of anything to do with it’s acceleration. You can have high velocity and low acceleration, low velocity and high acceleration (think of a=v^2/r), or any combination and anything in between.
Dave, stop trying to lay a charge of innumeracy on others. It makes you look like an idiot – as AnonymousInMA has already demonstrated with his comment about ‘offsets’ (y-intercepts). Oh, I teach at UMC, btw, if it makes a difference.
GOB: The Freddie and Fannie loans are only a small part of even the foreclosure story – let alone the securities behemoth.
Your perspective is skewed.
Just what is it that makes a mortgage backed security trading in the marketplace lose its value?
Anything traded on a market can be subject to a bubble. People buy because the prices are rising or the returns are good. Sometimes the prices are rising and the returns are good because people are buying. It’s not a Ponzi scheme, but it works sort of the same way. The tulip bulb bubble didn’t pop because people defaulted on their mortgages, if you’re implying something of that sort about the current problems we’re having, which go beyond the housing market, anyway. Moral hazard, speculation, over-leveraging, complex derivates and probably lots of other stuff I can’t think of off the top of my head fed this whole thing. There’s a reason people aggressively pushed bad loans on people who wouldn’t be able to pay them off. You can blame the borrowers all you like, but no one put a gun to the lenderss heads, either. And they’re the ones who are supposed to be the experts on loaning people money, not the borrowers.
Just what is it that makes a mortgage backed security trading in the marketplace lose its value?
The sudden realization that the “value” was phony in the first place. Next question?
–TP
If the impact of the mortgage defaults is so minor, how come Freddie and Fannie failed so quickly?
GOB,
Please recall that the majority of high risk MBS were not issued by Fannie/Freddie, but by other originators. F/F only accepted loans that met their stricter criteria.
Thanks to the housing crunch, even those loans are being affected, but please make sure to properly place the blame.
Thank you,
Fraud Guy
GOB,
Because Fannie/Freddie came late to the game.
While the main originators had banked their losses against loans that were a lower % of house values before they started falling, when F/F got in near peak value, the incipient fall threatened their positions much faster than other entities.
This is just anger talking, but I’m almost at the point where I want to say, “fine, let’s either do nothing, or go on a tax-cut-for-the-wealthy scheme and see where that gets us.” If this country is too stupid and/or greedy to see that it is staring into the abyss, then let this whole sucker crash and burn.
As I remarked on another blog, I’m now starting to realize why countries have civil wars. I’m not saying I’m personally at this point (yet), but I understand.
The so-called “stimulus” bill, more aptly referred to as the Trillion Dollar Spending Bill, has liberal education, healthcare, and environmental policies in it. It had family planning funding in it too, before it was taken out due to public outcry.
Here are the facts:
• The bill gives the Department of Education an extra $142 billion this year. This is an unprecedented increase in federal power, designed to make Congress a national school board. Who do we want making decisions about our children’s future—Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid or parents, teachers, and principals?
• The bill does create minimal “green jobs”, but only at the expense of other jobs. Instead of having coal plant workers, the Left would prefer there to be windmill builders—it is a zero sum game. Plus, the jobs in wind farms produce a less reliable output at a higher cost than jobs in coal or nuclear power. Additionally, the “stimulus” has over $35 billion for the Department of Energy, more than doubling their budget (their current budget is $23.8 billion).
• Lastly, the bill spends $87 billion to bail out states that have overrun their Medicaid budgets (while at the same time expanding this welfare program for the poor to the unemployed, regardless of income). The addition of billions of dollars for comparative effectiveness research and Health IT sets up a federal infrastructure for health care rationing. These provisions are an incremental strategy to have government control more and more of the health care sector – leaving individuals and families with less and less control over their personal health care decisions.
What are the consequences of this sort of proposal?
1) Bigger Government. At a trillion dollar price tag, this bill will likely triple the Federal government’s annual budget, and aims to extend the role and reach of the federal government. This bill makes the New Deal pale in comparison.
2) Massive debt. The United States looks to issue between $3.5 and $4 trillion of government debt over the next two years, possibly more, thanks to deficit spending under current policy, the stimulus bill, and the financing of TARP II. To put this in context, the total publicly held debt today is about $6.4 trillion, so we’re talking about increasing the outstanding debt by more than half in just two years.
3) Increased Interest Rates. Nations around the world are faced with similar prospects of enormous new debt issuance. Canada, for example, is expected to run a deficit this year for the first time in more than a decade, while Germany, the UK, and other countries in Europe and Asia are looking at huge deficits and huge stimulus plans. We’ve reached the point where deficits are now large enough nationally and worldwide to drive up interest rates.
To quote:
“What do you think stimulus is?”
You’re not impressing me, here.
If you are worried about interest rates then just don’t borrow the money. Get your cash by raising taxes on the rich.
I recommend the Biblical tax of 10% of wealth.
Rich G
I haven’t seen your comments here before, but you are in for it now.
Wealthy coservatives love to talk about sacrafice and love of country, yet they almost never send their children off to serve and when asked to make ANY type of personal sacrafice to save the economy (as us working schmucks regulary accept pay cuts to keep our companies afloat) they scream like stuck pigs. Do you all do anything for your country? Don’t give me that shit about boosting it through commerce; anybody who works is entitled to say that.
I could go into a very long rant about how the wealthy consume a disproportionate share of the government budget, but I’m too pissed to keep typing, so I’ll just say one more time; I know why countries have civil wars…
I know we need stimulus and in recognition of what I think that means, I would agree to increased federal outlays to go to those people in financial need in the current environment (because they are likely to spend whatever they get) as well as temporary spending in areas that can be identified to stimulate job creation. Also outlays that will help stabilize the financial system and the housing market (not to prop it up but to find a market level).
This type of legislation should not be used by the majority to push through permanent programs that are known to face substantial opposition under the guise of an emergency. That is why Emmanuel Rahm’s comments during the campaign were not well received by many people.
Would you be arguing for a consumption tax instead of an income tax?
GoodOleBoy,
Sorry to take so long replying (it’s a busy day today).
I don’t favor replacing the income tax with a consumption tax, but I think we should shift to a mixed tax system with more comsumption taxes than we have now.
Increasing the gas tax (or perhaps better yet a more general carbon tax) in a phased in fashion would I think be the best place to do this, using market mechanisms in our pursuit of energy independence. For example I think it would be better to raise the effective price of gas via taxation and scrap the CAFE standards. If we did this then US domestic automakers wouldn’t be stuck trying to sell into a market with dramatically different energy pricing than do our European and Asian competitors. They would be less exposed to foreign competition when oil prices go back up, than they will be if we continue to use regulation (CAFE) rather than market pricing to influence the mix of designs they offer to the public.
And yes, I realise that most comsumption taxes (esp. gas taxes) are regressive. That’s why having a more steeply progressive income tax to balance things out is a necessary component to this change, IMHO.
That’s why having a more steeply progressive income tax to balance things out is a necessary component to this change, IMHO.
How would you do that? Just askin.
This type of legislation should not be used by the majority to push through permanent programs that are known to face substantial opposition under the guise of an emergency.
In some respects this is a valid complaint which I have some sympathy for. My sympathy is tempered by the problem that (A) bundling multiple things together [some of which the opposition does not support] into a single bill is a standard legislative tactic practiced since time immemorial, and (B) the GOP has invested immense effort in demonizing any sort of permanent spending via the label “pork” to the point where it is almost impossible to have a rational discussion of the merits of individual programs (honeybees anyone?)
In an ideal world we could split the stimulus into three different bills: a tax cut bill, a direct transfer spending bill, and an infrastructure bill. Then we could vote on each them on their merits. I think we all know what would happen in this case – the GOP would vote in the tax cuts and direct transfer spending, and then demogogue “PORK!PORK!PORK!” to prevent anything at all from being passed with respect to infrastructure. Yay tax cuts – mission accomplished!
I don’t trust the GOP or conservatives enough to risk going down that road. They haven’t earned it. They need to show good faith effort before they can ask that much, and the effort from the GOP in the House and Senate is not exactly building up good will and trust right now.
How would you do that? Just askin.
Change the income tax code. Index the brackets more steeply. IMHO while we’re at it we should add additional steps up in the marginal rate curve to recognize differences between the top 1 percent and the top 0.001 percent (with grades in between). Somebody who earns 1 million per year in income is not the same as Bill Gates or Warren B., nor should we tax their top marginal income the same way.
Or are you asking about the politics (i.e. how do we get the votes in Congress to pass something like this)?
Or are you asking about the politics (i.e. how do we get the votes in Congress to pass something like this)?
No, just the mechanics. E.g., do you leave the lower brackets as is or drop the marginal rate on income under ~40k to 0. I totally agree on recognizing differences between the top 1 percent and the top 0.001 percent, the top 0.001 percent are hiding in the reeds.
//Let’s see . . . a guy who claims to be a math teacher says AnonymousinMA is correct. Another guy who claims to own trailer parks says he is not. Someone help me decide who to listen to!//
If you do the math yourself you will see that the trailer park guy is correct in his assertion that the DeMint set of tax rates (the second set in my earlier example) is more progressive than the current 2008 set of tax rates (the first set in my earlier example).
This is so because the threshhold where any tax is paid is at a higher income. Said another way, there is an offset of the whole rate structure towards the higher end of the income strata. Said another way:
//How? The rates now are 10%, 15%, 25%, 28%, 33%, and 35%. DeMint’s proposal would change them to 0%, 5%, 15%, 18%, 23%, and 25%. The lower brackets get the greatest proportionate decrease.
10% is reduced 100% to 0%
15% is reduced 67% to 5%
25% is reduced 40% to 15%
28% is reduced 36% to 18%
33% is reduced 30% to 23%
35% is reduced 29% to 25%
This change makes the rates MORE progressive. I wonder if you did the math //
ScentofViolets, a math professor, says:
//This is sheer nonsense at best, malicious innumeracy at worst://
and // either this Dave character is simply regurgitating talking points with no sense of how absurd they are, or he knows damn well just how nonsensical it is, but is hoping someone will swallow the bait.//
but he is wrong. I am absolutely correct that the second set of rates, the DeMint rates are more progressive.
So Harry (the boxer) Reid just asked unanimous consent for 4 Senators to speak for the “compromise” amendment, followed by 4 Republicans of McConnel’s choice. Little Davey Vitter made noises about objecting — he wanted speakers “on each side” to alternate — but finally acquiesced. So the “Majority Leader” got to offer “his” 4 speakers in a block:
Ben Nelson (DINO)
Susan Collins (R)
Arlen Specter (R)
Joe Lieberman (RIABN)
Just who the bloody hell won the election, anyway?
–TP
kcindc: //GOB, Ugh is saying that someone making $100,000 pays 25% of that in federal income tax, whereas the 400 richest American taxpayers (who average $263 million a year) are paying 17%. Dave’s claim that “the effective rates are indeed progressive” is not true.//
Please refer to this chart which is based on CBO numbers ->
http://www.realclearmarkets.com/charts/tax_rates_across_the_income_spectrum-54.html
I do agree with Yomtov that the estate tax is useful for the very reason he cites: It works against //the creation of a hereditary aristocracy//
I am not against an estate tax.
Dave, first of all, we’re talking about the top 0.0002%, so they’re not on the chart. Second we’re talking about federal income tax, not whatever bizarre calculation was cooked up to get those numbers. The fact that it includes corporate tax is a sure signal that something funny is going on.
A chart that included all taxes might be interesting, but this isn’t that, since it excludes some of the most regressive ones, such as sales, because they aren’t federal.
Larv
My assertion: “If you compare effective rates on all income earned for all income strata you’ll see that the effective rates are indeed progressive.”
My cite: Please refer to this chart which is based on CBO numbers ->
http://www.realclearmarkets.com/charts/tax_rates_across_the_income_spectrum-54.html
Larv is wrong at February 06, 2009 at 12:23 PM and Good Ole Boy backs him up at February 06, 2009 at 12:28 PM.
Hmm:
So when we want to argue that corporate taxes should be cut or eliminated (while ranting about “double taxation”), we’ll say that they’re passed through to consumers and thus result in us all paying higher prices. But when we want to argue that the tax system is fantastically progressive as it is, we’ll assume in our calculations that all the corporate taxes come directly out of rich people’s pockets.
So many blind sheep:
//GOB, Ugh is saying that someone making $100,000 pays 25% of that in federal income tax, whereas the 400 richest American taxpayers (who average $263 million a year) are paying 17%. Dave’s claim that “the effective rates are indeed progressive” is not true.
Posted by: KCinDC | February 06, 2009 at 12:31 PM//
Again, debunked by d’d’d’dave at February 06, 2009 at 08:15 PM
I am not against an estate tax.
How did you come to this opinion, based only on things you have personally experienced?
Interesting chart. It seems to be promulgated by the Manhattan Institute, which received $19,470,416 in grants from 1985-2005, from foundations such as the Koch Family Foundations, the John M. Olin Foundation, Inc., the Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation, the Scaife Foundations, and the Smith Richardson Foundation.link
Along with the wikipedia page, the sourcewatch page on the place is interesting, as is the rightweb’s page
rook, 4:15p says
//The remaining set of tax rates is still progressive (arguably more so, as the ratio of income taxes paid by the rich will increase)//
Agreed.
But also: //the move would be regressive because you’re cutting more tax dollars for the rich than for the poor… the CUT is regressive. As I said before, think in terms of dollars – John the Dishwasher will save about $1,000 while ARod saves at least $2,000,000.//
The problem is that words mean something. According to wikipedia “A progressive tax is a tax by which the tax rate increases as the taxable amount increases.” The effective word is RATE not dollars.
If the rate was progressive before the change and more progressive after the change then the change was not regressive.
Wait, why are we borrowing $1,000,000,000,000 from the Chinese and Saudis to create an undetermined number of jobs with an unknown benefit to the economy?
Sigh. Let’s say that the tax on tax an income of $10K was zero, and now it’s being raised to a rate of 0.01%, i.e., one dollar. According to your figuring, this corresponds to a ‘real’ increase of – wait for it – infinity. And that is because, as it’s been explained to you more than once already, you are using a percentage rate change of a percentage rate instead of just the percentage rate. Let’s break your accounting in a different way: anyone making less than $250K pays no taxes, while anyone who makes more pays . . . one dollar. That’s even more ‘progressive’ than before(at least, for people making at or under the threshold.)
I don’t believe you’re really this dense though. Which is actually a worse indictment than a charge of ignorance.
Wait, why are we borrowing $1,000,000,000,000 from the Chinese and Saudis to create an undetermined number of jobs with an unknown benefit to the economy?
So we can screw them later?
Again, debunked by d’d’d’dave at February 06, 2009 at 08:15 PM
And yet even that chart shows the highest earners paying a lower effective rate than earners immediately below them.
Yes. This is a mistatement: “If you plot these on a curve you will see that the second set of rates rises more steeply.”
My assertion that the second set of rates is more progressive remains true. It is a fact that you, Mr. Credential waver, took issue with at February 06, 2009 at 10:31 AM. You said this while quoting me:
//This is sheer nonsense at best, malicious innumeracy at worst…
This change makes the rates MORE progressive. //
Fess up. You were wrong and I was right Mr. professor of mathematics at UMC.
I wager that you, as a way to maintain your dignity, will say that you were commenting on my process and not my conclusion.
Dave, you have not demonstrated that the change makes the rates more progressive. In fact, I don’t see anyone on either side proposing a quantitative measure of progressivity that would allow such a comparison. I’m pretty sure that measures could be devised that would make either conclusion possible, but perhaps there’s some generally accepted formula someone knows.
Do you think that the tax system proposed by ScentOfViolets at 08:56 PM is even more progressive than DeMint’s?
d’d’d’dave,
I’ll accept your debunking of my agreement with Larv. I’m assuming the earlier references to the top 400 individual filers were correct. I don’t know how to get the data that would tell me the effective rate for the top bracket of individual filers.
I thought you said yesterday you kept these extreme differences with most of the posters here in your pocket. Did I misinterpret that?
In fact, I don’t see anyone on either side proposing a quantitative measure of progressivity that would allow such a comparison.
There are such quantitative measures, in the example in this thread not enough information is given to use them. We would need to know not just the tax rates, but the income levels at which they each kicked in as well as the distribution of pre-tax income to do a complete analysis.
It is, of course, absurd and innumerate to state flatly that the set of lower tax rates is more progressive. It is easy enough to plug in numbers to the two sets of rates and show that switching from the first (higher) set of rates to the second can increase income inequality and raise the percentage of taxes paid by people with lower incomes, that is, to show that the second set could be less progressive.
The only way the second would be more progressive in any sense would be if the 0% tier in the second set of rates was sufficiently large. Then the second set could be more progressive in the sense that it could decrease the percentage of taxes paid by lower income workers, although it would still not be progressive in the sense of decreasing income inequality. Not even setting income tax rates to 0% for the bottom 90% of the population would be progressive in the sense of reducing income inequality if you simultaneously significantly reduce the top marginal rate.
If the rate was progressive before the change and more progressive after the change then the change was not regressive.
d’d’d’dave, your logic here is flawed. You’re assuming equal distribution of tax revenue across brackets (which is kind of funny, actually). I’ll try once more. Forget the proportions and lets just use a really simple example:
Poor people pay tax $10 and rich people pay tax $1,000. If you cut the tax by 10% for both, poor people pay tax $9 and rich people pay tax $900. The change is $1 for poor people and $100 for rich people. That change (which is what we’re arguing about) is regressive. I can’t make it any simpler.
Oh, and I’m assuming that when the government has that tax revenue, it’s going to be distributed at equal benefit to each individual, regardless of income (a flimsy assumption, but hopefully not TOO far from the truth). So in my example, you’re starting at $51.50 for both and moving to the $1 and $100 split I referred to. That’s the change I’m calling regressive.
Maybe I’m asking for too much out of the word regressive. If the term must be reserved for tax rate changes (rather than the more general way it has been used with regard to economic policies in recent years) then there’s clearly no change in progressiveness.
Can we at least agree this change results in a net gain for the rich (and inversely, a loss for the poor)? That’s all I’m trying to say here.
//Poor people pay tax $10 and rich people pay tax $1,000. If you cut the tax by 10% for both, poor people pay tax $9 and rich people pay tax $900. The change is $1 for poor people and $100 for rich people. That change (which is what we’re arguing about) is regressive. I can’t make it any simpler.//
Rook, several things.
A. The rate sets I gave did not transform the first set into the second set by multiplying each rate by 0.9. Instead it subtracted 0.1 from each rate. 0.15 transformed as 0.15-0.10=0.05 rather than 0.15*0.9=0.135 as it seems you have done in your example.
B. I see that in your example, the rich person saves $99 more than the poor person and that you (and many others) call that dollar difference ‘regressive’. I have been very careful to point out more than once that the definition of progressive taxes that I am using is about rates and not dollars. I am speaking apples and you are speaking oranges. It is difficult to converse when definitions of words are changing.
d’d’d’dave,
As a liberal, I think people are entitled to use words any way they like. French people are entitled to say “fromage” when they mean “cheese”, and conservative people are entitled to say “progressive” when they mean “across the board”. A rose by any other name, and all that.
You waste your time, however, when you slap the label “roses” on a bouquet of skunk cabbages, and try to convince people who like roses that you are, in fact, selling roses. What you persist in calling “progressive” is not what people who actually favor progressivity call “progressive”.
To argue about whose definition of a word is “right” is a waste of time. We can, however, easily settle an argument about numbers. A tax rate table is made up of numbers. You propose a tax table, I propose a tax table, people vote between the two. It doesn’t matter whether you tout your table as “more progressive”, or denounce my table as “more progressive”. (It’s not clear whether you consider progressivity good or bad.) People choose between two sets of numbers, and that’s that.
–TP
d’d’d’dave –
A. Yes, I invented a completely oversimplified scenario in order to make my point as clear as possible. Using earnings instead of taxes, the actual proposed decrease, and differential tax rates is closer to reality. The fact that an equal cut benefits the wealthy remains the same if I do that:
Poor Person: Earnings of $10,000, tax of $1,500 (I know it’s more complicated than this, but let’s just assume 15% for simplicity’s sake). A cut of 10 percentage points on tax rate results in new tax of $500, a change of -$1,000.
Rich Person: Earnings of $1,000,000, tax of $300,000 (I know it’s more complicated than this, but let’s just assume 30% for simplicity’s sake). A cut of 10 percentage points on tax rate results in new tax of $200,000, a change of -$100,000.
Poor person saves $1,000, rich person saves $100,000. (presumably this $101,000 would benefit them much more equally if the government had it). Satisfied?
B. It is difficult to converse when definitions of words are changing.
Yeah, I realized that and offered some clarification (see my last post). Dictionary backs you up, so I apologize for my loose application of the term.
You were wrong and I was right Mr. professor of mathematics at UMC.
The debate over who is the biggest mathematical poopyhead is all very entertaining, but what I’d like to know from dave is why he thinks lowering the tax rates will improve the economic situation.
I pretty much posted that at the front russell, yet he’s so good at derailing the conversation. So, how about it d^3, how exactly do tax cuts create a quicker and larger stimulus to the economy than gobs of messy spending?
Sigh. It’s not a matter of asserting authority. It’s a matter of access to common knowledge that can be looked up at anyone’s whim, i.e., this is not an empty opinion, but an already long since established fact. Note also that I explained why dave is wrong, and more than once: under his ‘definition’ setting the tax rate to zero for anyone making less than, say, $250K, and one dollar for anyone making over that amount is more ‘progressive’. As other people have already pointed out, you need to know the complete schedule before you can make any objective claims to progressivity. You also have to determine how much in taxes you need to collect before setting the schedule. ‘Progressive’ means nothing in and of itself. Just try funding government operations on the schedule I used in my example.
If he didn’t already get that point, it’s probably hopeless, but I’ll pile on none-the-less since his whole “I-made-a-misstatement-but-you-were-[b]wrong[/b]” dignity-maintenance dance was so very unseemingly.
d”’ave, you argue that it’s the ratio between brackets that determines how “progressive” a tax scale is as compare to other possible codes. Let’s test your logic. We’ll start with a simple tax code where income over $200k is taxed at 99%, and income under that is taxed at 1%. Clearly, this is a progressive tax scale, albeit a ridiculously exaggerated one. So let’s make a tax cut. We’ll reduce the lower bracket to 0.01%, and the upper bracket to 0.99%. This keeps the ratio between brackets exactly the same. Are you willing to argue that the post-cut tax code is just as progressive as the pre-cut code? Or does perhaps size of tax burden within a single bracket across codes matter as well as the interplay of ratios between brackets within a single code if one wishes to quantify how “progressive” one code is compared to another?
I have only ever argued a single case. I have argued that if rates go from 10%, 15%, 25%, 28%, 33%, and 35% to 0%, 5%, 15%, 18%, 23%, and 25% and all other things (pretax income distribution and income levels where rates apply) remain equal then the rate schedule becomes more progressive. By more progressive I mean that a higher proportion of total tax revenues fall on the higher income strata.
This can be demonstrated using actual data. I’ll use 2005 because that is the last year for which I can find pretax income distribution numbers.
Tax Rate Schedules
2005 Married
Filing Jointly Modified
Income Marginal Marginal
Ceiling Rate Rate
$14,600 10% 0%
$59,400 15% 5%
$119,950 25% 15%
$182,800 28% 18%
$326,450 33% 23%
no limit 35% 25%
Source for 2005 tax rate schedule: IRS
Actual 2005 Income Distribution and Actual 2005 Married Marginal Tax Rates
Income Marginal Aggregate Share of
Quintile Distribution Rate Tax Total tax
Lowest 15,900 15% 1,655 2%
Second 37,400 15% 4,880 6%
Third 58,500 15% 8,045 9%
Fourth 85,200 25% 14,630 17%
Highest 231,300 33% 56,921 66%
Total Tax Revenues 86,131
Actual 2005 Income Distribution and Modified Marginal Rates
Income Marginal Aggregate Share of
Quintile Distribution Rate Tax Total tax
Lowest 15,900 5% 65 0%
Second 37,400 5% 1,140 3%
Third 58,500 5% 2,195 5%
Fourth 85,200 15% 6,110 14%
Highest 231,300 23% 33,791 78%
Total Tax Revenue 43,301
The share of total tax column reveals the degree of progressivity. Clearly the Modified Rates (final table) push more of the total tax burden onto the rich. The Modified Rates therefore are more progressive than the Actual 2005 rates.
Source for 2005 income distribution: http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/88xx/doc8885/EffectiveTaxRates.shtml
Concavity, Convexity and Rate Progressivity
Now lets look at X,Y diagrams and some simple cases. The X axis represents income levels. The Y axis represents marginal tax rates.
Compare three lines.:
A. 0,0 1,1 2,2 A straight line
B. 0,0 1,2 2,2 A convex curve (bulging in the middle towards higher values of Y)
C. 0,0 1,0 2,2 A concave curve (sagging in the middle towards lower values of Y)
All three lines are progressive because they all trend towards the northeast and are in the northeast quadrant (not sure how to say that another way). That is, marginal rates increase as income levels increase. If one were to rank the lines in order of progressivity where the lowest progressivity is first and highest progressivity is last the ranking would be: B (convex), A (straight), C (concave).
Now compare two lines with identical concave inflection:
B. 0,0 1,2 2,2
D. 2,0 3,2 4,2
D is merely shifted 2 points to the east. Of these, D is more progressive. It shifts a higher proportion of total tax revenues toward the higher income strata. One must modify line D as follows to make it a complete schedule of marginal tax rates:
D. 0,0 2,0 3,2 4,2 This takes into account the incomes between 0,0 and 2,0.
From these comparisons, one can form a general conclusion. All other things (pretax income distribution and income levels where rates apply) being equal, a change that adds concavity to the line is increasing the progressivity. Shifting identical curves towards the east adds concavity.
Measuring the change: percent change in the change of a percent
Referring now to the rate sets previously described; namely set one:10%, 15%, 25%, 28%, 33%, and 35% and set two: 0%, 5%, 15%, 18%, 23%, and 25%: Lets look at how much each rate changed (the delta) between the first set and the second set. Specifically we’ll look at the ratio of the delta to the initial rate (the rate in the first set) expressed as a percent. The following table is one I showed in my comment at 2:27am on February 6:
10% is reduced 100% to 0%
15% is reduced 67% to 5%
25% is reduced 40% to 15%
28% is reduced 36% to 18%
33% is reduced 30% to 23%
35% is reduced 29% to 25%
I asserted in that comment that the fact that the lower brackets received the highest proportionate decrease (represented by the 100%, 67%, 40%, 36%, 30%, 29% series) indicated that the second set of rates was more progressive than the first set.
I was challenged on this assertion by AnonymousinMA at 9:21a on Feb. 6 who said “This argument has hit a personal pet peeve of mine in quantitative analysis. The percent change of a percent MAKES NO SENSE.” And “This is a classic example of a bad use of numbers. While there may be contexts where it makes sense to talk about a percent change of a percentage (though I can’t really think of any), this is definitely NOT one of them.” Scent ofViolets, a mathematics professor at UMC, backs him up at 10:31a on Feb 6 saying: “This is sheer nonsense at best, malicious innumeracy at worst” and “The only way to compare rate changes that is consistent – for very good reasons – is to use percentage differences, not percentage ratios. This is covered in elementary statistics classes, so either this Dave character is simply regurgitating talking points with no sense of how absurd they are, or he knows damn well just how nonsensical it is, but is hoping someone will swallow the bait.” Phil at 11:19a on Feb 6 “takes the bait” as ScentofViolets would say and follows after the credential waver like a sheep. He says: “Let’s see . . . a guy who claims to be a math teacher says AnonymousinMA [another math teacher] is correct. Another guy who claims to own trailer parks says he is not. Someone help me decide who to listen to!”
In the last section I showed that the degree of concavity of a line is a proxy for degree of rate progressivity. More concavity equals more progressivity. Now I will show that my method of analysis is an effective means of detecting whether one line is more or less concave then another line. My method of analysis is to look at the trend in the percentage differences between a series of points on one line and a series of points on another line. (Please note that I make this claim only for lines in the northeast quadrant that do not double back on themselves. I believe all known non-negative tax rate schedules are such lines.)
The following schedules are lines A, B, C, and D that I described in X,Y diagram terms in the first section. Here I express them as a series of marginal tax rates. The first column is the income limits to which each rate applies, the second column is the rate, the third column is the aggregate tax that a person earning exactly that income will need to pay. Imagine that a state which uses any of these rate schedules has only four taxpayers and that the pretax income distribution of the taxpayers is $1000, $2000, $3000, and $4000. With that in mind, the fourth column represents the percentage of the states total tax revenues owed by the person at that income level.
Income Marginal Aggregate Share of
Ceiling Rate Tax Total tax
Line A: Straight
1,000 10% 100 5%
2,000 20% 300 15%
3,000 30% 600 30%
4,000 40% 1,000 50%
Total tax 2,000
Line B: Convex
1,000 20% 200 6%
2,000 40% 600 19%
3,000 40% 1,000 31%
4,000 40% 1,400 44%
Total tax 3,200
Line C: Concave
1,000 0% – 0%
2,000 0% – 0%
3,000 20% 200 25%
4,000 40% 600 75%
Total tax 800
Line D: Concave
1,000 0% – 0%
2,000 20% 200 11%
3,000 40% 600 33%
4,000 40% 1,000 56%
Total tax 1,800
You can see from the fourth column that each of the rate schedules are progressive, some more than others. Their progressivity rank from least to greatest is in the following order: B, A, D, C.
Now let’s compare the rates, using my percent change method and see what is revealed.
Comparison of A to B
Marginal Marginal Delta Delta /
Rate Rate (Col 1- Col 2) First Column
Line A Line B
10% 20% 10% 100%
20% 40% 20% 100%
30% 40% 10% 33%
40% 40% 0% 0%
Comparison of A to C
Marginal Marginal Delta Delta /
Rate Rate (Col 1- Col 2) First Column
Line A Line C
10% 0% -10% -100%
20% 0% -20% -100%
30% 20% -10% -33%
40% 40% 0% 0%
Comparison of B to D
Marginal Marginal Delta Delta /
Rate Rate (Col 1- Col 2) First Column
Line B Line D
20% 0% -20% -100%
40% 20% -20% -50%
40% 40% 0% 0%
40% 40% 0% 0%
I showed above that the progressivity of the schedules ranks from low to high in the order: B, A, D, C. We would expect that if the rate schedule changed from A to B that progressivity would decrease. Notice that the trend of column four for the comparison of A and B is decreasing: 100,100,33,0. We would expect that if the rate schedule changed from A to C that progressivity would increase. Notice that the trend of column four for the comparison of A and C is increasing: -100,-100,-33,0. Finally, we would expect that if the rate schedule changed from B to D that progressivity would increase. Notice that the trend of column four for the comparison of B and D is increasing: -100,-50,0,0. To summarize, the fourth column shows a rising trend when progressivity has increased and it shows a falling trend when progressivity has decreased. My method of analysis, which is to look at the trend in the percentage differences between a series of points on one line and a series of points on another line, is an effective means of detecting whether one line is more or less concave then another line.
The math professors erred when the denounced my method as nonsense and innumeracy.
NV
//Are you willing to argue that the post-cut tax code is just as progressive as the pre-cut code?//
Yes. They are equally progressive if the marginal rates are all that changed; meaning pretax income distribution and the income brackets to which the rates apply are the same before and after the rate cut.
My method shows as much.
ReeksofViolets
//As other people have already pointed out, you need to know the complete schedule before you can make any objective claims to progressivity.//
This is not true. If income distribution and the income brackets the rates apply to are constant, then a rate change alone can be judged as to whether it brings more or less progressivity.
//You also have to determine how much in taxes you need to collect before setting the schedule.//
Yes. But DeMint never claimed his rate changes would be revenue neutral, nor have I. All I have argued is that a specific method of determining whether a rate change is more or less progressive does work.
/ ‘Progressive’ means nothing in and of itself.//
Except that there is an actual definition of Tax Progressivity which I have been using. If you want to claim the words mean nothing specific than why bother to argue anything…or talk, or read or even think?
// Just try funding government operations on the schedule I used in my example.//
It’s not much different than handing out $800 billion dollars every two or three months. Neither is a sustainable way to fund government.
russell and Matth
//how about it d^3, how exactly do tax cuts create a quicker and larger stimulus to the economy than gobs of messy spending?//
I’m not saying they do. I have said before that I think it is okay for the bill to fund infrastructure and make sure that existing safety net programs have enough money to meet the added demands that will placed on them by increasing numbers of people. Beyond that, I have no faith that added money will be well spent by the government. If they want to ‘stimulate’ beyond that I think the money is better spent by leaving it in the hands of the people from whence it came – tax cuts.
I’m not saying tax cuts have a greater ‘stimulus’ multiplier than some other method. I’m just saying that if the safety net is secure i’d rather not burn the money for the sake of a ‘stimulant’. It’s better to let 140 million tax payers each make their own stimulant decisions with their own money than let a bunch of idiot congressmen and senators decide what to do with it.
Rook
I understand your point. You are making a qualitative judgement. You are saying it is better for tax cuts to be roughly dollar equal among income strata. I have not made a value judgement in my comments until tonight. I have only been arguing for a method of evaluating the effect of a marginal rate change on income tax progressivity.
You argue for after-tax income equality (or at least in that direction). I personally value efficiency over equality. I have a notion that income/wealth flows in general towards efficient producers of good value (obviously there are exceptions i.e. madoff, hereditary wealth, injuries, crime, warfare, etc). I don’t see lack of income or wealth principally as a sign of unfairness in the system. I see it principally as a sign that a person hasn’t created value in an extraordinarily efficient way. It is not a character judgement. I keep in mind that there is a thin crust of people who are creating extraordinary value; some by dumb luck, some by brilliance, some by sheer hard work. The individual members of this group change all the time in a creative destruction sort of way. It is natural. There is a broader, but still thin crust of impoverished people. The vast majority is in the middle. The middle represents the normal average state of life. Life is mostly about getting by punctuated by occasional periods of prosperity and occasional periods of want. I think efficient use of resources helps everyone. That’s why I don’t think it makes sense to strip resources from one just for the sake of equalizing. In my view, it is okay for the efficient one to fund a basic safety net for the inefficient ones (and the unlucky ones and the efficient ones). But I wouldn’t equalize just for the sake of it. But that’s just me. And it takes all kinds doesn’t it?
One thing does confound me about the tax arguments of ‘after-tax income equalizers’. It’s that they argue for high income earners to pay unequal, higher dollars for tax increases but they argue for equal dollars for all when cutting taxes. I can’t quite imagine what a rate schedule would be where the rates climbed as you went up but they were equal when you came down.
It’s better to let 140 million tax payers each make their own stimulant decisions with their own money than let a bunch of idiot congressmen and senators decide what to do with it.
That’s a nice principle, but what a great number of those 140 million tax payers will do is either pay down debt or put the cash in their mattress. That’s what I will be doing with any surplus funds I stumble across for the near future. That will do bugger-all for the demand side.
Another thing to note is that a lot of the stuff that is being cut out of the bill in the name of eliminating wasteful spending is safety net stuff.
Also, and more fundamentally, I actually disagree that private individuals will always make better use of money that Congress.
Better for what?
People will use their money to pursue their private interests. There’s nothing wrong with that, it just is what it is.
There are a lot of important things that will *never* be undertaken or funded through purely private initiative. They will only happen if public institutions, frex government, takes them on.
Finally, I’m not sure the “it’s their money” thing holds water. Yes, the money we all pay in taxes is our money. We earned it, and we should have a voice in what happens with it.
But if you live in this country, you are obliged to contribute toward the operation of its institutions, and toward the fulfillment of the various commitments we make as a nation. If that disturbs you, you need to get over it, because pretty much any nation you will actually want to live in will have the same requirement.
We ran the country for quite a while on tariffs and luxury taxes. It was a very, very different country then, and a very, very different world. Think twice before you say you’d like to turn back the hands of time.
russell
// what a great number of those 140 million tax payers will do is either pay down debt or put the cash in their mattress//
Okay, fine. If that’s what they think is best than they should do it. But that is not the end of the road. I wager there won’t be more than 20% of the population who are mattress types. In the case of the other 80% the money will be recirculated by the creditors in some manner, probably through new loans for new projects. And new projects represent new spending. Using money to pay down debt does not make the money disappear it just makes the debt disappear. The money moves on to do it’s work elsewhere. And don’t discount the psychological value to consumers of having less debt. It makes them more able to spend.
// I actually disagree that private individuals will always make better use of money that Congress.//
I haven’t said always. Each one will do what he feels is best. What some think is best is snorting cocaine. Obviously they err. I do believe that a million little decisions are more efficient than a few big ones (i.e. decisions taken by govt)
//There are a lot of important things that will *never* be undertaken or funded through purely private initiative. They will only happen if public institutions, frex government, takes them on.//
If such things haven’t been taken on in times of prosperity because they were deemed too expensive or of low priority then what makes them suddenly worthy? I say nothing makes them suddenly more worthy. It’s only that advocates of spending see an opportunity.
//But if you live in this country, you are obliged to contribute toward the operation of its institutions, and toward the fulfillment of the various commitments we make as a nation.//
Well, duh. I pay my taxes. Is there a rule that I have to like everything the govt does with it? I don’t go out and march or throw molotov cocktails. I just complain a little and go back to work. I think it is called debate. The ability to do such a thing is one thing that makes a country desirable isn’t it?
//We ran the country for quite a while on tariffs and luxury taxes. It was a very, very different country then, and a very, very different world. Think twice before you say you’d like to turn back the hands of time.//
Did I say I wanted to turn back the hands of time? I don’t remember saying that.
d’d’d’dave,
You have just commented 23 times on one thread. I think tonight you should take a break and go get laid.
The flaw in anonymous’ proof at 9:21a on feb 6 is that he redefined the words “progressive’ and ‘regressive’. He shifted the object of the definition from ‘tax paid’ to ‘income kept’. It is my understanding that terms mean things in mathematics, 1 is 1 and 2 is 2 but 2 is not 1 and 1 is not 2. anonymous abandoned that rule in his analysis of my work. That is the flaw in his proof.
You’re up awfully late, dave. And, essentially, repeating yourself, though doubtless you think you’ve presented a new argument(hint: what is the difference between ‘necessary’ and ‘sufficient’, as we say in the math biz? Oh, and I’m not a professor, btw, I merely said that I teach math.)
But you haven’t answered what are really the core questions: Isn’t dropping taxes to zero for everyone who make $250K or less a year, and dropping taxes to one dollar for everyone making over that amount ‘progessive’ by your definition? In fact, far, far more ‘progressive’ than anything else so far proposed?
If you raise taxes from zero to one dollar on someone who makes $10K, and from 10% to 99.999% on someone who makes $100K, isn’t that ‘regressive’, again by your definition?
These aren’t hard questions to answer.
I do believe that a million little decisions are more efficient than a few big ones (i.e. decisions taken by govt)
Decisions about what?
My overall point here is that the decisions made by private individuals, reasonable and good as those may be in terms of their own interest, may well be destructive in the bigger picture.
The situation at hand is exactly an example of this. When I pay down personal debt, frex, the money goes to financial institutions who are *themselves* hoarding cash, because they’re waiting for the next shoe, or series of shoes, to drop.
It *is not* always true that 140 million private decisions will create a better result than a few decisions made by “the idiots” in government.
Idiocy can, as it turns out, be quite widespread.
Regarding this:
I have a notion that income/wealth flows in general towards efficient producers of good value
I think it’s more accurate to say that, in this country, income and wealth flows in general to capital.
Finally, it’s far from clear to me that efficiency is always of greater value than equality. Sometimes, and for some things, it is, sometimes is isn’t.
I have a notion that income/wealth flows in general towards efficient producers of good value
I think it’s more accurate to say that, in this country, income and wealth flows in general to capital.
Sorry, just to expand on this:
I think it’s accurate to say that income and wealth are *created* by efficient producers of good value.
The direction in which the income and wealth flow is a somewhat different issue, and IMO most reliably flows to capital.
Violets
//But you haven’t answered what are really the core questions: Isn’t dropping taxes to zero for everyone who make $250K or less a year, and dropping taxes to one dollar for everyone making over that amount ‘progessive’ by your definition? In fact, far, far more ‘progressive’ than anything else so far proposed?//
Yes, the new rates are progressive. They are more progressive than the current federal rates. And they are more progressive than anything i’ve heard proposed.
//If you raise taxes from zero to one dollar on someone who makes $10K, and from 10% to 99.999% on someone who makes $100K, isn’t that ‘regressive’, again by your definition?//
Yes, the second second set of rates is more regressive. It moves from 100% of total tax revenues being paid by the upper bracket to only 99.999%. It is not revenue neutral though.
So what? How does that refute my point? I suspect you’re looking at the sheer size of the rate increase on the higher bracket as ‘progression’ though you haven’t said so.
d^3, this whole post was about how inefficient tax cuts are for stimulating the economy, you agree that they won’t be very good at that, but you still natter on endlessly about how they are the best thing we could do. If the economy were a vehicle, careening down a hill, mostly out of control, you’d be the guy in the back seat arguing that we need to change the spark plugs and maybe get a cleaner engine, but to hell with actually doing something about where it’s going. Either you don’t really see what the problem is here, or you just don’t care. The original post was all about stimulus, yet you’ve had according to others over 20 posts to address that and the best we can get is that efficiency is more important than the actual state of the situation. I think it’d be best that you get some perspective and attempt to be constructive about the actual situation, not your personal hobby horse.
d’d’d’dave:
Ah, but therein lies the rub. As near as I can tell, your method is just that: your method. What you’re doing does not to the best of my knowledge represent any commonly-accepted measure of progressivity of a tax code.
Specifically, you claim progressive as you use it means “a higher proportion of total tax revenues fall on the higher income strata.” But in fact, nowhere do you make this argument; you never address anything but personal income tax. Specifically, you argue that if statutory personal income tax rates are more progressive, the tax code is more progressive.
Um. No. Economists beg to differ. In my (admittedly nowhere near exhaustive) survey of literature to come up with a commonly accepted measure of tax progressivity, I found no one using statutory marginal rates in isolation. I found some using the top bracket marginal rate, by which measure the tax cut in question certainly makes the code less progressive; I found some using measures of pre-versus-post-tax income inequality (“effective progressivity”), by which measure the tax cut in question certainly makes the code less progressive; I found some using average and marginal rates with average deductions and credits accounted for (“structural progressivity”). This latter is the closest to what you argue for, but even that isn’t it, as you look simply at the statutory rates and pass judgment based on that.
Which is to say, you’re using an arbitrary definition of “progressive”. Most pointedly, you are using an arbitrary and non-standard measure of progressivity between different tax codes. Whether a tax coded is progressive is simple and not in dispute: does the tax code place a disproportionately larger tax burden on the wealthy than on poor? If yes, it is progressive; if no, it is proportionate (“flat”) or regressive. However, what is in dispute is how to quantify differences in progressivity. You’ve chosen an ad hoc measure of your own devising, namely the slope of the line described by the statutory marginal personal income tax rates. You did not define this until fairly late in the argument; rather, you took for granted that your arbitrary definition was correct. However, as you yourself say,
You will note that while you cite a definition of progressivity, you fail to cite a definition of quantification of progressivity. This is critical, because it’s on just such a definition that your argument hinges. You’ve imposed your (non-standard) definition on the discussion, and for most of the conversation at best implicitly provided it. This leads you to make statements like the last one in the above quote. And it leads some of your interlocutors to vehemently disagree with you. If you’re using your private definition, particularly if you neglect to provide it, you undermine the grounds for meaningful communication. Words have commonly-agreed-upon meaning. By such commonly-agreed-upon meaning, the DeMint change is not perforce a progressive change. Using non-homemade measures of progressivity, your best hope of demonstrating that it will in fact increase the progressivity of the American personal income tax code would be to compare effective tax rates before and after the change – not simply citing statutory rates.
This is not a word game, though one gets the idea you feel it is, that you’re chuckling at the notion that silly leftists will bristle and sputter ineffectually if you can force them to conceive a regressive change in tax policy as being progressive. Words mean something, and the progressivity of an income tax code is not derived from examining the statutory income tax rates… it must at the very least consider effective income tax rates. If you wish to argue that the change is a move towards a more progressive tax structure, you need to consider all taxes, not simply income taxes. But if you’re content to deal strictly with income taxes, even then you must use commonly accepted – not personally conceived – measures of tax progressivity. Otherwise, you’re not making an argument, but instead playing a silly word game to tweak the noses of those you argue with.
This raises an interesting point. You think that mathematics is the field we need to be considering in this matter? That might explain your cockeyed conception of what a progressive tax policy entails.
But more to the point, you affirm my interpretation of the above: you have failed to use commonly accepted measures of the preogressivity of tax codes to quantify the progressivity of the DeMint change. You have instead devised your own ad hoc measures. If this is a basis for dismissing arguments out of hand your arguments can certainly be dismissed.
Sigh. Dave, when you raise taxes from 0% to 10%, or 1%, or 0.00001%, how much of a tax increase is this, using your ratio definition? Tell the truth.
And this doesn’t even make sense:
So if there’s 1,000,000 people in the lower bracket, and only one person in the upper, the upper tax bracket is paying 99.999% of the revenue. But I think you’re starting to realize that you have to consider something besides just ratios(in fact, to the extent ratios are considered at all, they are applied to pre- and post-tax income. Not on the taxes themselves. In my first question above, what is the ratio of change in post-tax income? Sound a little more reasonable?)
This isn’t rocket science. It isn’t even, properly speaking, college level math.
mattH
//you still natter on endlessly about how they are the best thing we could do//
Not true. I have nattered on endlessly about a specific method of quantitative analysis. I believe I did not make a value judgement about whether tax cuts were the best thing we could do until just a few hours ago (2:15a on Feb 8).
//I think it’d be best that you get some perspective and attempt to be constructive about the actual situation, not your personal hobby horse.//
Thank you for telling me what you think would be best.
Everyone else seems to be doing a decent job of explaining the flaws in d’d’d’dave’s arguments so I’ll just make two points:
So, thinking of taxes rather than food and using the pocketbooks of the lunch companions as an example, C would pay the first $70 until he/she had only $30 left. Then C and B would split the next $44 between them equally, leaving each of the three with $8 apiece.
C will have paid $92, B will have paid $22, and A would’ve paid $0.
And you believe this model is ‘fair’?
I got my PhD last year* so most of my friends are still in grad school. I, however, went into industry, where I’m getting paid about five times as much as they are. [Actually, only about four times as much after taxes, but let’s not quibble.] When we go out for drinks, yes, sometimes everyone buys their own — particularly because, having been in grad school far longer than they, I have a significantly higher amount of debt — but sometimes, yes, I buy the round. Why not? Comparatively, I’ve got the money and they don’t.
And yes, that’s fair, and you’d have to be an idiot to think otherwise.
* In math, incidentally, so a word of caution: your mathematical dick-waving makes you look like an idiot, not an authority. Stick with presenting your argument, such as it is.
Violets
//Sigh. Dave, when you raise taxes from 0% to 10%, or 1%, or 0.00001%, how much of a tax increase is this, using your ratio definition? Tell the truth.//
The change in each of these rates in proportion to the initial rate is infinite: 0%->10%, 0%->1%, and 0%->0.0001%. The dollar amount of the increase cannot be determined because you haven’t provided the pretax income income figure.
//And this doesn’t even make sense:
“If you raise taxes from zero to one dollar on someone who makes $10K, and from 10% to 99.999% on someone who makes $100K, isn’t that ‘regressive’, again by your definition?”
Yes, the second set of rates is more regressive. It moves from 100% of total tax revenues being paid by the upper bracket to only 99.999%. It is not revenue neutral though.
So if there’s 1,000,000 people in the lower bracket, and only one person in the upper, the upper tax bracket is paying 99.999% of the revenue.//
But it does make sense. You said //someone who makes $10K// and //someone who makes $100K//. Someone is not a plural. ‘Some people’ or even ‘some’ is plural but ‘someone’ is singulr. It is one individual. Using one person at $10k and one person at $100k *does* yield the 99.999% figure because the total population is only two persons.
But, to get to your point, changing a rate does not change the underlying pre-tax income distribution. The population earns what it earns without regard to the tax rate applied to it (Caveat: this applies in the short-term. There is probably a long term effect. I assume we are dealing here with the short term).
Go back and look at my method. I said all other things (pre-tax income distributions and the income brackets to which the rates apply) being equal, rate changes alone can be evaluated for their tendency to be more or less progressive.) Normally, when evaluating an algebraic equation one tries to isolate equivalent units on each side and remove them. That is essentially what I have done. Since pre-tax income distributions rates and income brackets do not change just because rates do, I have defined them as equal and removed them from each side.
But lets go ahead and apply the same rate change to an income distribution of 1,000,000 people in the lower bracket, and only one person in the upper bracket. The rate for the low bracket goes from 0%->0.01% and the rate for the high bracket goes from 10% to 99.999%. The result is that one high bracket guy pays $89,999.10 (or $99,999 depending on if the high bracket guy gets the benefit of the 0.01% rate on his first $10k) and each of the million low bracket folks pays $1. The proportion of total tax revenues paid by the high bracket guy drops from 100% to 8.25% (or 9.09% depending). The result is still a less progressive income tax regime than before the rate change. The rate change raises alot more revenue though.
//But I think you’re starting to realize that you have to consider something besides just ratios//
Nope. But I hope you’re beginning to realize the opposite.
//In my first question above, what is the ratio of change in post-tax income?//
The rate at which a person keeps their money changes as follows: 100%->90%, 100%->99%, and 100%->99.99%. The ratio of each change to the initial rate is: -10%, -1%, -0.001%.
//This isn’t rocket science. It isn’t even, properly speaking, college level math.//
Which begs the question, when will you admit that my point is valid.
If I may suggest something: it appears you are hung up on assuming a comprehensive revenue neutral change is occurring. I grant you that if you desire a revenue neutral outcome and you are changing the marginal rates then you must also change the income bracket levels to achieve revenue neutrality (in a closed system where income distribution doesn’t change). Go back and look, I have always defined income distribution and income bracket changes out of the analysis. In real life, revenue neutrality NEVER occurs when rates are changed.
Dave, ‘tax bracket’ is not an individual. I’m just throwing this out to show that all you’re doing is playing “If you can’t make me say I’m wrong I win.”
But at least you admit that this is a regressive tax increase by your reckoning: most people would say that it’s progressive. In fact, what is the usual practice, insofar as just ratios are concerned is to look at income changes. So in the first case, we have 9999/10000=0.9999 vs 1/10000=0.0001. Whadda surprise, a highly progressive tax – at least as most people measure it. Your problem, as I’ve mentioned more than once, is that you’re treating this as ratio data rather than interval data, and you can’t do that (no true zero.) Income, otoh, does have a true zero, and, should you decide to apply ratios, will give you an accurate result.