by wj
Mine, and yours as well, I suspect. We can devote the comments on Tuesday to speculation (in my case, mostly uninformed speculation) on the outcome of the Senate races. And on Wednesday, or maybe later, we can focus on what actually happened. Once we know.
For inspiration: the man himself
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DFhuE_XeT8
My guess is that the Democratic candidates both pull it out.
What puts them over the edge is that, for the last two days of the campaign, the Republican candidates could hardly get any attention — because the local news in Georgia has been pretty much wall to wall on the Trump phone call. Well, that’s what happens when you get in bed with Trump.
wj: FYLTGE
he does have a way of making everything about him, as he rubs his ass all over it.
I, too, hope wj is right but it’s all going to hinge on how many Trump voters show up today-and they do seem to be motivated. They aren’t likely watching the local news, so I’m not sure that is going to help.
With a whole 5% (give or take) of the estimated votes counted, both Democrats are leading. Which is meaningless, but hey, when you’ve got no solid data….
A straw in the wind.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Taniel/status/1346631145631444992
Sometimes, pundits on the right get the analysis correct. This from Ramesh Ponnuru:
Unfortunately for them, they had a trifecta. (And yes, that does mean I think it’s settled. Except for the size of the margins.)
We did it. 2010 was a backlash against Obama’s win. Tonight was an indication that backlashes can go in different directions. Will add more in the next few days, if I can.
With a whole 5% (give or take) of the estimated votes counted, both Democrats are leading.
and they’re leading with 99% of the votes counted, too.
of course these days, it ain’t over until the last vote has been counted, at least twice. and even then, the GOP isn’t going to accept the result because #handwaving.
And since Perdue has stated he will exhaust all legal avenues to “be sure all legal votes are counted”, I am assuming that for as long as they drag that out they can stymie progress in the Senate? Because until Ossoff is confirmed winner, won’t it still be R 50 v D 49?
TGFNC,
Biden won Georgia by 12k votes. Ossoff’s lead is currently 16k. This will be a done deal by the time Biden is sworn in.
When you even managed to lose Douthat, well……
What you say makes sense, but nothing would surprise me at this point, so I hope you’re right, bobbyp.
If Murkowski would pull a Jeffords, things would roll smoothly along.
Happy day! I’m pretty sure this is done!
I agree with this take.
Good luck, Joe.
From bobbyp’s link:
Noice!
This will be a done deal by the time Biden is sworn in.
From memory, Georgia counties have until the 15th to certify their counts, and the SoS has until the 22nd. Candidates can request a recount during the two business days following certification if the results are within 0.5%. McConnell will, of course, refuse to seat Ossoff until any recount is finished.
It does seem to be a thing at the moment: stuff done by Republicans to tilt the playing field in their favor keep coming back to bite them in the @ss. If your religion doesn’t have Karma, think of it as “As ye sow, so shall ye reap.”
Because I’m getting better at imagining the unimaginable, I’m thinking about what McConnell might try to pull in the next two weeks — while he’s still got VP Pence as the tie-breaker. And how loudly he will object when the Democrats do the same back at him.
My sense is Perdue and Loeffler could have survived any 2 of these 3: being unimpressive candidates, GA shifting purple, and Trump being a maniac.
Trump and Lin Woods’ outsized role in turning the Republican party into a parody of conservatism cannot be understated. The long list of enablers, Gingrich, Cruz, Hawley, Graham and so on have more to answer for than they can ever accomplish in one lifetime.
And they will never, not in a million years, accept responsibility or even remotely acknowledge their contribution.
So, the ball is now in your court amigos. Let’s see how it plays out. You won fair and square. Good luck.
“You won fair and square.”
You can’t be so objective, unbiased, and pristinely and evenly balanced that you aren’t able to realize that you have won …. somewhat … as well, can you?
Good luck, Joe, may the force be with you. And may all the Dems (and any principled Rs who remain and aren’t going to run again) be disciplined enough to stay with you long enough to enact measures to make America a place which doesn’t seek to disenfranchise minorities, stoke religious and racial hatred, and enrich the already sufficiently (or obscenely) rich at the expense of the working poor. Helping to save the planet, invest in infrastructure, and mend fences with your traditional allies, would also be an excellent idea. Luckily,, I think you and some of your peeps are up for it.
Trump and Lin Woods’ outsized role in turning the Republican party into a parody of conservatism cannot be understated.
yup.
Lin Wood, today
the GOP is not sending its best.
or maybe it is.
I would have thought McConnell deserves a place at the head of your list of infamy, McKinney.
You can’t be so objective, unbiased, and pristinely and evenly balanced that you aren’t able to realize that you have won …. somewhat … as well, can you?
I’m keeping as open a mind as my human limitations will allow. My preference was for gridlock. I didn’t get it. It’s democracy, not McKTocracy.
the GOP is not sending its best.
or maybe it is.
No. The best are Sasse, Romney and the various state Repubs who told Trump and his posse to pound sand.
I would have thought McConnell deserves a place at the head of your list of infamy, McKinney.
No, McConnell only stirs up the 20% or so on the left who follow this shit day in and day out. For the rest of American, he’s just another senator who does was senators do.
Also, it’s my sense that McConnell would have loved to have done Trump in years ago but didn’t have a way to pull it off. I think the thing that so many of us didn’t get was how many people Trump could suborn to his personal crew. It is cult-like. I always thought Cleek was being over-the-top melodramatic (and I’m not sure I’m entirely wrong about that), but he got that one right.
That was me hitting send too soon.
Also, it’s my sense that McConnell would have loved to have done Trump in years ago but didn’t have a way to pull it off.
How quickly we forget, when we want to.
McConnell could have done T* in back in January 2020, by insisting on the impeachment trial being an actual, you know, trial. With witness testimony. And he can twist arms when he wants to, rather than stating from the start that the Senate GOP was “as one” with the Trump Administration.
Y’all had the chance to send Trump packing, and decided not to.
No, McConnell only stirs up the 20% or so on the left who follow this shit day in and day out. For the rest of American, he’s just another senator who does was senators do.
But what about what he’s actually done rather than how he’s popularly perceived? I know GFTNC used the word “infamy,” but you didn’t. And I don’t know that the others on your list stir up any more people than does McConnell, or that they aren’t seen by the rest as senators doing what senators do.
My preference was for gridlock.
Also the libertarian preference.
You’ll still get a lot of it, don’t be too worried.
As for McTurtle, I think he would have vastly preferred Pence and if he had seen a way to replace Jabbabonk with him, he’d have done it. But he knew that would have carried a literal not just figurative risk of getting murdered and that his gang would have the same fears. So why risk his life if the chances of success were slim in the first place? Plus, I think even he did not expect HOW counterproductive Jabbabonk would become in the end.
How quickly we forget, when we want to.
McConnell could have done T* in back in January 2020, by insisting on the impeachment trial being an actual, you know, trial. With witness testimony. And he can twist arms when he wants to, rather than stating from the start that the Senate GOP was “as one” with the Trump Administration.
Y’all had the chance to send Trump packing, and decided not to.
Ok, sure, of course you’re right. McConnell had the pull and the horses to dump Trump. And, so did I, except I’m not a Republican.
If you have any memory of what I wrote at the time, I made two general arguments. First, that Trump was guilty of impeachable offenses and, second, it would be great if McConnell could pull off a quiet agreement that Trump steps down, isn’t prosecuted and Pence steps in. That obviously never happened and I think any rational, objective, non-hyperpartisan can see in hindsight that the Trump Crew was so in the can for DT that Mitch, Romney et al would never have gotten to the plate much less first base on deposing DT. But, sure, hold everyone who isn’t a lefty responsible for the fact that DT wasn’t impeached.
Trump and Lin Woods’ outsized role in turning the Republican party into a parody of conservatism cannot be understated.
more on this…
while i don’t subscribe to it, and wouldn’t want to live under it, i do think conservatism is a valid philosophy and its probably workable.
what’s really blown me away about the Trump era is how little force it took to blow all of the conservatism out of the mainstream GOP. his nomination and the immediate gushing support he got from evangelicals and other movement conservatives was the first sign. but then they stuck with him through things that no other Republican could have ever weathered. and not just stuck with him – everything he did made them love him more. nothing, not even their conservative principles, could keep them from adoring him.
without even trying, he completely de-legitimized the current GOP as a conservative party. oh sure, they’re all going to go back to pretending to be conservative as soon as Trump leaves DC – they know all the old conservative show stoppers by heart. but we will all know they’re just phoning it in.
maybe Sasse and Romney and the other handful can bring it back to reason. but i suspect most of those guys are going to end up on the discard pile, next primary season.
I always thought Cleek was being over-the-top melodramatic (and I’m not sure I’m entirely wrong about that), but he got that one right
i think i’ve said it here before, but i agree with this. i was being a bit hyperbolic at first. but, over the last few months especially, the GOP has more than confirmed it.
But what about what he’s actually done rather than how he’s popularly perceived?
My hyper-engaged Republican/Conservative friends can rattle off a litany of high crimes and misdemeanors they impute to Pelosi, AOC, Schumer et al. I see the flip side of it here.
From where I sit, most of the kerfuffle is on matters of process, peripheral substance and appearance (“Did you hear what AOC said!?!?!?!?!!?”). I’m not that deep in the weeds, so what yanks your chain about McConnell probably doesn’t get me very worked up just like I don’t lose a lot of sleep over Pelosi or Schumer. I kind of like AOC because she’s still so new to all of this, she almost always says what’s on her mind.
If you think back on what gets me going, it isn’t personalities per se(DT being a major exception), but rather issues/policies/etc. I can get pretty amped up over speech codes, sex codes, tax policy, defending free enterprise, etc. I seldom worry much about individuals.
Except BobbyP. Commie sandbagger who most likely manicures his handicap. He scares me.
So, the ball is now in your court amigos. Let’s see how it plays out. You won fair and square. Good luck.
Thanks McK!
To the degree that I can ‘speak for the left’, I’ll offer my hope that we don’t fubar things too badly. IMO just lowering the crazy factor will be an improvement.
Better days, soon come.
Ham sandwich. Yum.
https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-national-courts-national-governments-courts-government-and-politics-0ca758127e3b1718bc08c056b409959d
Garland merely receiving a hearing in the Senate will, in these low bar times, seem like the Berlin Wall coming down.
We still have gridlock. There is not a landslide for miles around.
Ski the bunny slopes with no fear.
I was going to pick some of the better quotes from Cleek’s 12:11, but since that turned out to be me just reprinting the whole thing, I will simply say this: Yes, everything you say is correct.
This is such a bizarre thing and a bizarre time to be a conservative who likes the Constitution (the whole thing, not just the bits that work in my favor) and gets it that not everyone agrees with me (which is somewhat weird, but I’ve come to accept that hard fact).
My wife and I are actively rethinking our plans for the next several years because my views–I’m not particularly shy–will likely have very real social ramifications. I never, ever thought things could get this way.
What about the issue of refusing hearings for Merryck Garland, and any SCOTUS nominees of President HRC? I would have thought you might have had an opinion on that, McKinney. Or do you happily ignore that as a matter of “process”?
Merrick
From this link
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/06/republicans-turn-on-trump-georgia-loss-455305
Behind the scenes, Georgia Republicans were also frustrated that Donald Trump Jr., the president’s son and one of the GOP’s most popular surrogates, backed out of appearances in the state on the Sunday before the election. Perdue personally asked for Trump to reconsider, but Sen. Tim Scott (R-S.C.) stepped in instead.
Realizing that Tim Scott is a tad bit more on the, err, earth tones than DT jr, I wonder if those rallies played out like this scene in Blazing Saddles
https://youtu.be/dQrrqf-YamA?t=62
that’s Merrick FUCKING Garland. 🙂
and he’s gonna be the next attorney general.
But actually, I don’t want to get in the way of your introspection. So although I regard McConnell as a scoundrel, a blackguard, a piece of ordure to be wiped off one’s shoe with a shudder, anybody else is at entire liberty (of course) to disagree.
“My wife and I are actively rethinking our plans for the next several years because my views–I’m not particularly shy–will likely have very real social ramifications.”
One day, perhaps you can unpack that for us.
McKinney is well on the conservative side here. But I can see how, in Texas, he might be considered a flaming liberal, if not an outright socialist. (Texas may be changing. But big swaths of it haven’t yet.)
So although I regard McConnell as a scoundrel, a blackguard, a piece of ordure to be wiped off one’s shoe with a shudder
A description of McConnell to be memorized and repeated endlessly. Thank you GftNC!
“ My wife and I are actively rethinking our plans for the next several years because my views–I’m not particularly shy–will likely have very real social ramifications. I never, ever thought things could get this way.”
That I am curious about. What do you mean?
I read Dreher regularly, but Dreher is a twerp and he cherry picks to boost whatever hysterical kick he is on. At the same time, I think there are various types of cancel culture, left and right, if that is what you are referring to.
Speaking of which, I am glad Warnock won, but his behavior on the Israeli Palestinian issue has been contemptible. He was criticized by bigots and caved in completely. I might provide links later.
What about the issue of refusing hearings for Merryck Garland, and any SCOTUS nominees of President HRC? I would have thought you might have had an opinion on that, McKinney. Or do you happily ignore that as a matter of “process”?
I thought is was bog-standard partisan chickenshit, which I believe is the 8th universal constant. If the shoe were on the other foot, I would have expected the same and now that the precedent has been well and truly set, we all know what the rules are. In the greater scheme of things, it’s just one more example of the peeps with the stroke getting what they want. I wake up enough in the middle of the night worrying about screwing up a case to add worrying about political douche-baggery to the list of what keeps me up. My only beef with douche-baggery is, if you’re going to complain about it, make sure your side isn’t doing the same thing.
and he’s gonna be the next attorney general.
And very likely the next SCOTUS Associate Justice.
One day, perhaps you can unpack that for us.
Yeah, maybe. We’ll see.
I will be happy with functioning government, working for the people. I certainly have my preferences with regard to policy, but getting up in the morning knowing that my government isn’t actively trying to screw its citizens over will give me a lot of comfort.
At the same time, I think there are various types of cancel culture, left and right, if that is what you are referring to.
No, but I can see where you’d draw this inference. It’s on the personal, social level where I’m concerned things could change. I’ll leave it at that for the time being.
and he’s [Garland] gonna be the next attorney general.
And very likely the next SCOTUS Associate Justice.
Almost certainly not. Obama nominated him in the hopes that he was moderate enough to get confirmed. But at this point, I’d expect Biden to go for someone substantially younger.
Trump is standing in front of the DC rally right now, telling the [armed and insane] crowd that the Democrats are “illegal” and are “illegally taking charge” and that “we can’t let it happen”.
https://www.c-span.org/video/?507744-1/rally-electoral-college-vote-certification&live
Yes, and now the Secret Service and other federal law enforcement are protecting a fascist insurrectionist and his thugs demonstrating, perhaps violently against their own fucking government and (d)emocratic governance via the rule of law and the will of the people.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-urges-coup-crowd-to-head-to-capitol-to-harass-legislators-suggests-he-might-join
Think about that.
Rubicons …. crossed.
Could we see armed combat between the Secret Service and DC’s National Guard?
Bring on whatever they’ve got.
Trump is standing in front of the DC rally right now, telling the [armed and insane] crowd that the Democrats are “illegal” and are “illegally taking charge” and that “we can’t let it happen”.
In October, I would have said to myself, “Cleek needs to get a life.” For that, I apologize. I can’t believe what I am seeing and hearing from people. I can’t believe his words aren’t driving people away in droves.
Could we see armed combat between the Secret Service and DC’s National Guard?
Bring on whatever they’ve got.
Actually, this is exactly the kind of language that is now being mainstreamed and I don’t much care for that.
“I can’t believe what I am seeing and hearing from people. I can’t believe his words aren’t driving people away in droves.”
Well, various commies, wokesters, Pinko’s, and watchamacallits on political blogs that shall remain anonymous have been repeating ad nauseum “Believe!” for years now.
Good on, cleek.
Just came across this fun factoid about Trump’s call to Raffensperger. Apparently his incompetence is such that he was dialing the press office, where interns answered and hung up, assuming that it was a prank. Oops! How like him and his whole administration.
In October, I would have said to myself, “Cleek needs to get a life.” For that, I apologize.
appreciated. but really, October Trump was still facing some competition for Worst President Ever. i don’t think anyone could have guessed how far he would descend in these past two months.
i’m honestly amazed how much the various governmental systems have held up under the stress he and his cult have been putting on them lately.
and, McTx – i know we butt heads here and it sometimes gets heated… but, i imagine the political landscape must be a pretty horrific sight from where you stand right now. you have my sympathy.
WaPo’s Latest Devlopments on the rally:
“I can’t believe what I am seeing and hearing from people. I can’t believe his words aren’t driving people away in droves.”
The Republican Party … the conservative movement … has been increasingly accepting of mainstreaming this brand of rhetoric for a long damned time and electing officeholders who nod and wink at the threats.
Have you been listening to NRA rhetoric, to cite one example, for the past twenty years? They have been grooming for the kill since Gingrich came on the scene.
Where do we think Trump learned it. And he is just the apotheosis to apply it, which is why he so thrilling to behold by the filth now threatening governance and the country.
Now, we’re here. Today.
I merely answer in kind.
It’s exactly like someone breaking into your house with a weapon.
You answer in kind, as unacceptable as that may be.
Maybe it will burn itself out, just as the Symbionese Liberation Army’s rhetoric and tactics back in the old days never claimed much purchase, if any, in the mainstream Democratic Party.
But the SLA never had 75 million (dry kindling ready, indeed eager, to ignite) groomed psychotics rooting them on.
I can’t believe it either.
But I’m maintaining my “You ain’t seen nothin’ yet” stance for the foreseeable future.
If you think back on what gets me going, it isn’t personalities per se(DT being a major exception), but rather issues/policies/etc.
I’m just not getting the distinction you’re making between your list of Republicans who have so much to answer for, on one hand, and McConnell on the other, regardless of how worked up you are or for what reasons. What makes him less odious than Cruz and company? What do you think they did that was so much more awful than the things McConnell’s done?
Or what makes you thing public sentiment is significantly different as concerns McConnell as compared to your list of awful Republicans?
I’m not trying to change your mind. I’m just trying to figure out what you’re getting at.
i think McConnell’s a snake.
but even snakes know which way the wind is blowing.
even snakes know which way the wind is blowing
And he may be seriously pissed off at Trump for losing him his Majority Leader position. That may or not be justified (i.e. Trump and his behavior may not have been decisive in Georgia). But I can see McConnell seeing it that way.
Pence, the lame prong rat:
“It is my considered judgement that my oath to support and defend the Constitution constrains me from claiming unilateral authority to determine which electoral votes should be counted and which should not,” Pence said in a statement released shortly before the session.”
His wife four years ago:
“You got what you wanted, Mike. Now, stay away from me.”
That’s Pence to Trumps’ left, the soporific moron fake Christian tool of Evil:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIe_ndiijNI
F*ck him.
Yeah, I just saw that scoundrel trying to wrap the tattered cloak of patriotism and principle around himself. Too fucking late, Matey. Everybody has seen you for what you truly are: you enabled that crook and charlatan until one minute to midnight, a midnight conversion will not save your reputation now.
I sympathize with McKinney and respect his reticence about “actively rethinking our plans”. But it would be irresponsible not to speculate after a tease like that:)
I therefore speculate that McKinney and his wife have been in a pickle since before the election. Life would become less comfortable for them if He, Trump lost. Also if He won.
That’s my speculation because I can imagine that when your inclination is to tell “both sides” they’re wrong, you leave yourself with few allies in a polarized world.
Gotta go. Trying to follow developments on the MAGAt assault on the Capitol.
–TP
I’m not trying to change your mind. I’m just trying to figure out what you’re getting at.
Fair point. Ok, maybe I just don’t get out enough. My sense is that most of the commentariat here follows politics very closely. At that level, the distinction between McConnell and Cruz may be nonexistent.
I’m less engaged, first because I’m busy as shit practicing law (but, on a happier note, this really is my last full year) and second because I’m not interested enough in how the sausage gets made to stay focused. As a result, what hits my radar screen is Cruz/Graham/Gingrich, who have a much higher signature in the I-fellate-Donald Trump-every-chance-I-get range on my current events radar. McConnell strikes me as a guy that has to play the game to keep all of his assholes in line, and while I don’t respect that at all (I’m with Mitt and Ben, remember?), what one does enthusiastically versus what one does to get the job done are material distinctions in my view.
Does this help?
I will address Cleek and Thullen in a bit. I have to finish some legal stuff.
My 02.16 of course relates to McConnell’s road to Damascus in the senate.
“you leave yourself with few allies in a polarized world.”
As someone with few allies (I’m bipolar; I melt at both ends), I hereby declare McKinney has allies here.
Does this help?
It does. Thank you. I think I might even kinda-sorta agree with you on some level, though I tend to think just as many people hate McConnell’s fish-eating guts as hate the fish-eating guts of the rest of them. That’s just an impression, of course.
One thing I could add is that I don’t recall the sort of criticism of tRump coming from McConnell that once came from Cruz and Graham, so not so much whiplash (if my recollection is correct).
Meanwhile, the Capitol explodes (not literally). CNN says texts from congresspeople, senators etc are saying they are being told to shelter…
Pence “either has been or is about to be evacuated”
they’re in the Capitol building. they’ve brought Confederate flags.
https://twitter.com/igorbobic/status/1346902299466203145/photo/1
Well, it does make it clear where they’re coming from. And what response is appropriate. We beat them once; we can do it again.
And then, perhaps, a new Reconstruction.
Even the most determined Both-Sides-ists now have to pick a side. My heart bleeds for them.
–TP
Well, it was interesting a few days ago to see Marty referring to Trump’s “dementia” (and remember, Marty said some months ago that Trump’s challenge to norms was nothing particularly extreme). I’m guessing that’s going to be the excuse for his recent behaviour from some of those bothsidesers.
(Not that I don’t think, and haven’t thought for a while, that Trump is cognitively challenged compared to Trump 10-15 years ago. But nothing he’s been doing since the election makes me think it’s his cognitive decline in operation; it’s his narcissism and psychological syndrome about “losers” etc.)
And now we are getting reports of “guns drawn” in the Capitol. And not by the Capitol Police. Good luck with “both sides do it” on that.
Apparently Fox is reporting that shots have been fired and people are hurt.
Cops are injured. Not yet defunded.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/1/6/2006376/-Violence-from-Trump-supporters-growing-worse-multiple-police-injuries-Capitol-Building-invadded
None of the violent demonstrators have been gunned down yet, even in the back. They aren’t niggers so they don’t qualify for conservative justice, not that those people are being left out of the coup e’tat:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/1/6/2006319/-Bill-Barr-s-parting-gift-A-new-rule-stripping-civil-rights-enforcement-in-Justice-Department
Remember, Donald Trump, the fucking subhuman Republican conservative President of the United States, not one hour ago, sent those violent provocateurs to the Capitol to kill liberals, which apparently now include McConnell, Pence, Robespierre, Maria Callander, and Francis the Talking Mule.
Dreher is mumbling over his rosary regarding the fact that his life might be saved by a fag who feels sorry for his dwindling book sales, as the rabble the former raised get a load of his elitist tut-tutting of hard totalitarianism in the supperating flesh.
Spend those tax cuts while you got em, motherfuckers.
Remember. Do not forget what we have witnessed today.
Market was up 600 points not an hour ago, as it contemplated communism and mandatory buggering under and by the two new Georgia Senators.
Capitalists stormed Congress and the market then swooned. Hard to tell its allegiances.
Kudlow will be along soon to explain prior to his turn on the gallows, the lying prat.
and, McTx – i know we butt heads here and it sometimes gets heated… but, i imagine the political landscape must be a pretty horrific sight from where you stand right now. you have my sympathy.
Thanks and appreciated. We will continue to clash. I hope we can all work on tone going forward, but never any need to pull punches on substance.
I sympathize with McKinney and respect his reticence about “actively rethinking our plans”. But it would be irresponsible not to speculate after a tease like that:)
Not intended as a tease, but I can see why it came across that way. This post-election thing is beyond upsetting and I have no plans to hold back my thoughts on the Trump Crew. How that will play out remains to be seen.
Going forward, he should be called Adolf Trump.
Have you been listening to NRA rhetoric, to cite one example, for the past twenty years? They have been grooming for the kill since Gingrich came on the scene.
No, I have never paid any attention to the NRA. I have always sensed extremist rhetoric from the farther ends of both spectrums. Frankly, I always expected the explosion to come from the left. If this doesn’t die down soon, Houston may have to secede. You wouldn’t believe how calm everything seems to be here.
Ok, like five seconds ago, one of my law partners texted me. Go to this link: https://www.nationalreview.com/news/hill-staffers-evacuate-as-trump-supporters-clash-with-police-outside-capitol-building/
Jesus.
watch the lone Capitol officer try to handle the Republicans as they break in.
https://twitter.com/igorbobic/status/1346911809274478594
Just saw this:
Romney tells Republican colleagues ‘this is what you’ve gotten’ as Senate shelters in breached Capitol
3:16 p.m.
Sen. Mitt Romney (R-Utah) put the blame for the chaos unfolding in the Capitol on Wednesday firmly on the shoulders of his Republican colleagues: “This is what you’ve gotten, guys,” Romney was heard yelling as “mayhem unfolded in the Senate chamber, apparently addressing his colleagues who were leading the charge to press Mr. Trump’s false claims of a stolen election,” The New York Times reports.
Thank you, Mitt Romney.
Capitol Hill cops in hand to hand fist fights with subhumans.
The fact that McKinney always thought “the explosion” would come from the left, shows how successful the rightwing noise machine has been. We saw Marty saying much the same about some of the BLM etc protests in Portland. And both McKinney and Marty said they despised Trump from the beginning. I would suggest that none of the lefties here are really all that surprised by what is happening; I would further suggest we have seen the MAGAts being capable of this for a long time.
at least one person has been shot inside the Capitol.
tear gas has been released in the Senate chamber.
the Q gang is sure this is all antifa in disguise.
Fuck The GOP.
I would suggest that none of the lefties here are really all that surprised by what is happening
This non-lefty isn’t surprised either. Since it’s what Trump has been calling for for weeks. Horrified, shocked, and appalled. But not surprised.
Apparently Fox is reporting that shots have been fired and people are hurt.
I can fondly remember when the most dangerous place in the Capitol was between Chuck Schumer and a TV camera…
Going forward, he should be called Adolf Trump.
Trump is not a dictator. He just plays one on TV…
And even long before the election, his behaviour at his rallies, encouraging violence “Beat the crap out of him!” etc, has shown from the very beginning exactly what he is, and exactly what they loved about him.
Trump is not a dictator.
nobody should doubt that he would take the job if it was in his reach. he has absolutely no use for restraints on what he wants to do, never has.
The fact that McKinney always thought “the explosion” would come from the left, shows how successful the rightwing noise machine has been. We saw Marty saying much the same about some of the BLM etc protests in Portland.
This is probably not the time for batting this one back and forth–I started it–but the left has its own issues and always has. I haven’t watched Fox in forever and my only conservative read is National Review, so whatever my faults may be, it isn’t influence by the right-wing noise machine, whatever that is. Not saying it isn’t a thing–obviously there are people in DC acting out big time–but it has never been on my radar. I’m more likely to read Jacobin or the Guardian or American Prospect.
Ok, back to the issue at hand: how do we even begin to settle this dust? If the Repubs can’t eat crow and admit it was wrong to follow DT (as step one), what next?
So far, McCarthy is denouncing the invasion of the Capitol, while insisting that it isn’t Trump’s fault. Which, without question, it is.
Ok, back to the issue at hand: how do we even begin to settle this dust? If the Repubs can’t eat crow and admit it was wrong to follow DT (as step one), what next?
As a Democrat who looks forward to at least two years of holding two of the three branches of government, I’m hoping to just do whatever we can for the people, advertise our successes, and hope that these traitors are exposed for the horror story that they are. In addition, the Justice Department has to prosecute crimes that were committed, especially the easier wins.
Appears the TV networks are getting content to replace the reality TV episodes they couldn’t make due to the pandemic. Politics as bloodsport entertainment…
IMO, until the GOP base can break out of its ever-widening spiral of conspiracy theories, the dust is just going to keep getting thicker.
the longer they stay closed-off from the reality that rest of the country lives in, the harder it’s going to be to find ways to agree on even basic things (and forget about the hard stuff). and the more the left is going to polarize in response.
(yes, there are conspiracy theorists on the left, but they don’t have much if any power. they certainly don’t control the party.)
What cleek said, especially his first para.
WCS. These people (or at least a good number of them) actually believe they are fighting for democracy. It’s insane.
One rioter, sitting in Mike Pence’s seat in the Senate chamber, declared Trump the winner of the election.
nobody should doubt that he would take the job if it was in his reach. he has absolutely no use for restraints on what he wants to do, never has.
Yes, that started to become clear when, a few weeks after the election, he didn’t just shut up and go sulk. Instead, he’s continued to do whatever it might take–no limits at all, truly “whatever”–to hold office. Foolishly, I thought he’d eventually give up. Missed that one by miles.
Some comfort: GA can and should prosecute him for soliciting ballot box-stuffing. Convict his sorry ass and let him spend 3-5 years making new friends.
Goddammit, I feel like I need to get in my car and drive to North Carolina and make Cleek a MckTini.
Donald Trump fomented violent insurrection and rioting in the US Capitol, injured human beings, mostly cops, and teargas is wafting thru the chambers.
I hope the tear gas doesn’t interfere with the savage caning of Ted Cruz and company during the next quorum.
The White House, under Donald Trump just announced the National Guard is being called in to out down the insurrection.
You see how this thug works, now? He gets his logo all over everything on both sides of the street.
He must be executed. His entire family must be executed. Ted Cruz must be executed. All 75 million of his enablers must be executed.
America does not go forward without those executions as a minimum requirement.
But, her emails. I know. We can’t have everything.
Fuck all of us for permitting this travesty.
Charles: “I would have accepted gridlock, but THIS?”
Never yank a bandaid off an armed motherfucker.
Yes, that started to become clear when, a few weeks after the election, he didn’t just shut up and go sulk.
(…)
Foolishly, I thought he’d eventually give up. Missed that one by miles.
Same here. I thought he would withdraw and be mopey. He’s a madman.
P.S. I want a MckTini!
McTX: If the Repubs can’t eat crow and admit it was wrong to follow DT (as step one), what next?
Hell if I know, McKinney.
I think a lot depends on whether “independents” and Libertarians(TM) end up renouncing Satan and all His works, or whether such people keep believing that “policy” can be separate from “personality”.
The MAGAts have to be made pariahs in civil society, whatever their “policy” preferences may be. Democrats, alone and unaided, can’t make that happen.
–TP
One rioter, sitting in Mike Pence’s seat in the Senate chamber, declared Trump the winner of the election.
Ok, this is as likely as Diane Lane calling to ask me out to dinner and my wife telling me to have fun, but really, if Adolf doesn’t stand up and say, “Ok, dammit, I lost. Everybody stand down and get back to being Americans”, how does this end, and to that point, does it end?
If he continues to claim the office, I’m not sure it does end.
Then what? The fuckers don’t wear uniforms. How do you spot them? They don’t all have bad teeth.
Did I just imagine I wrote cleek’s 3:35 pm comment and put his name on it accidentally?
Biden speaking like a president: “A president’s words can inspire, or they can incite.”
Challenges Trump to go on TV and tell the rioters to stand down and go home. We shall see.
Biden also said what happened this afternoon “borders” on sedition.
Already, the ham sandwich goes all Cheez-Wiz on us.
Close THAT border once and for all.
First time ever.
Do these people really want a war? They’re likely to get one.
If he continues to claim the office, I’m not sure it does end.
No, it ends. Because it can’t continue.
It either ends by them giving this shit up, or it ends by them going to jail or getting shot, or it ends by the country falling apart.
But one way or another it ends.
This shit is unacceptable.
P.S. I want a MckTini!
And you shall have one! Next time I’m in NJ, I’m going to make that happen. Unfortunately, I don’t get to NC.
The MAGAts have to be made pariahs in civil society, whatever their “policy” preferences may be.
I’m afraid that something like this is going to be necessary. There is a brief window–I’d say from about 10 this morning until 5 minutes ago–for people to say, “Ok, fuck you guys, I didn’t sign on for this. I’m out, kiss my ass, stay the fuck out of my yard and never send me another fucking email ever again.” I’m ok with people getting it if they get it right now. No waiting to see how things turn out. Either fess up and turn over a new leaf or be an outcast.
“How do you spot them?”
They have names. You know where they are.
Dan Patrick. Ken Paxton. Louis Gohmert (he actually does have bad teeth), Ted Cruz.
Heck, look around. Half the state is them and the same is true across the country.
You could use a shotgun and have a 50% chance of identifying them.
Wow, when McKinney turns, he turns big. Bravo McKinney, I raise a theoretical MckTini to you!
And to the fact that Ossoff has just been confirmed to win, by more than.5%.
how does this end, and to that point, does it end?
If he continues to claim the office, I’m not sure it does end.
It ends by having those who rioted imprisoned. And with Trump (and others, e.g. Guilliani, various Fox commenters, etc.) getting charged with “inciting to riot.” Basically, actions need to have consequences. First, to those who have broken the law. And second, to discourage those who might be inclined to do anything similar in the future.
P.S. I saw something about a similar invasion having happen to the Kansas legislature. Guess it was too far to get to DC for them.
Goddammit, I feel like I need to get in my car and drive to North Carolina and make Cleek a MckTini.
heh.
cheers anyway!
it’s quittin time for me.
Except BobbyP. Commie sandbagger who most likely manicures his handicap. He scares me.
I am under a vow to be nice, and now with the onset of this thing called “old age” my game is going to shit. But yes, issues, not personalities are what matter.
Go in peace, buddy.
Trump is now speaking, calling on his followers to go home. But he can’t stay on message (no surprise), and has segued to talking about the stolen election.
Trump just released a one-minute video, ostensibly begging people to be peaceful and go home, but repeating again that the election was stolen and everybody knows it. It would be unbelievable, if it wasn’t so believable…
Snap!
But one way or another it ends.
I hope you’re right. I could see a semi-permanent festering. Yes, it would eventually end, but we’ll be a different country. And probably not a better one.
Shit, I started here this morning, feeling shitty because I was worried about getting along with people who, as of yesterday, truly believe the election was stolen. Because I think that is batshit crazy beyond words, I was worried about losing friends with my big mouth. Now we’re talking about losing the country. Probably won’t happen, but Russell’s link sure brings a person up short.
Going forward, he should be called Adolf Trump.
I object. He is and always be a wanna-be at best. Benito at reduced brain capacity is what he at best can aspire to (and still failing). The guy is basically a coward* and a petulant child. We should call ourselves fortunate for that. Otherwise there would be an actual civil war and his side would very likely be winning.
That does not mean that he is not dangerous or can’t still do lots of harm.
*just imagine him actually leading the mob storming the Capitol. The mere idea is absurd.
I was thinking about a half an hour ago that tRump would tell everyone to calm down but not go as far as to reverse himself on the stolen election. For an unpredictable madman, he’s awfully predictable.
Wow, when McKinney turns, he turns big. Bravo McKinney, I raise a theoretical MckTini to you!
Thanks, but you’re not seeing me “turn.” You’re seeing me completely, no shit furious at what that motherfucker has turned this country into. I assure you, if we ever get back to more or less civilized discussions on policy, taxes, lefty trends in social engineering, etc, you’ll recognize me.
But, I’d like to hang on to my country and what we are seeing is the kind of thing that–I’m not kidding–if it were happening in my neighborhood, I’d be locked and loaded. I am not down with civil insurrection, I don’t care who is doing the burning.
Go in peace, buddy.
And you, amigo. Have you tried moving up a tee box?
I object. He is and always be a wanna-be at best. Benito at reduced brain capacity is what he at best can aspire to (and still failing).
Objection sustained, and point taken on Benito. How about: IL Douche?
From Bill Kristol:
What should happen in the next 24 hours:
1. Clear the Capitol—as peacefully as possible, but in any case remove the mob from the seat of the legislative branch of our government.
2. Reconvene and finish counting the electoral votes.
3. Impeach in the House, convict in the Senate.
Others are raising the 25th Amendment.
This isn’t going to end well.
Objection sustained, and point taken on Benito. How about: IL Douche?
LOL.
When I said you had turned, I was thinking of your being prepared to treat MAGAts like pariahs. I remember having an (uncharacteristically) sharp disagreement with you about Sarah Huckabee Sanders (whom many of us see as one of the early enablers of this denial of reality) being treated like a pariah in public. But fair enough,I’m disappointed but I won’t assume your tolerance of it extends much beyond those who are engaging in “civil insurrection” (although presumably mainly seditious, democracy-challenging insurrection?)
From Bill Kristol:
Well, number 4 would be “belatedly send Bill Kristol to the Hague”, but I guess he has enough on his plate at the moment.
From:
https://twitter.com/IlhanMN/status/1346934098384793606
I wonder how many “Constitutional Sheriffs” have a hand in this noxious fucking piece of work.
I stand by what I wrote not too long ago about a shadow army and widespread unrest being our likely future.
This is it.
But fair enough,I’m disappointed but I won’t assume your tolerance of it extends much beyond those who are engaging in “civil insurrection” (although presumably mainly seditious, democracy-challenging insurrection?)
For me, the bright line is whether, after today, you fail to condemn Il Douche for not conceding the election today and bringing this sedition to an end. If Il Douche still pretends to be president and if people support that, they are outside society.
Nous, I thought you were paranoid. Now, I hope you were merely wrong. We still disagree about a ton of other stuff, just so that you don’t get all teary-eyed.
What should happen in the next 24 hours:
1. Clear the Capitol—as peacefully as possible, but in any case remove the mob from the seat of the legislative branch of our government.
2. Reconvene and finish counting the electoral votes.
3. Impeach in the House, convict in the Senate.
Others are raising the 25th Amendment.
I’d agree with the caveat that those being cleared from the Capitol should be cleared to the DC jail. There’s no real prospect of accidently sweeping up innocent bystanders in this. Anyone inside should be arrested and charged.
Happily, a Capitol staffer grabbed the envelopes of Electoral Votes, so the mob didn’t get their hands on those. Not that the known results couldn’t be replicated if necessary. But it saves a step.
I’d go with the 25th Amendment, simply because it’s faster than Impeachment could be. Although I do wonder if there are enough non-Trump-sycophants in the cabinet to make that possible.
Perhaps a little music to clear the Capitol with
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf6jon96EKY
Just to remind the insurrectionists how this worked out for their ideological ancestors.
I remember when the “left” tried, but failed miserably, to levitate the Pentagon….but this? Wow. Just wow.
Words fail.
Remember today the next time a winger starts the spittle flecked lecture on “law and order”.
Have you tried moving up a tee box?
That’s not where the problem lies (as it were), but it’s on the bucket list.
Solidarity
the fact that it’s from Ilhan Omar is just gravy.
I’ve been following C-Span for hours. They have done what they can to relay developments since the House and Senate got …adjourned by the MAGAts. For the past hour or more they have been taking calls like they do when the House is not in session.
And of course they have been taking calls from MAGAts proclaiming that the rioters were all Antifa and BLM, and Republicans would never do such a thing because they are Christians, and He, Trump is the best President evah!
The prion disease injected into the feeble brains of The Deplorables by the Right-Wing Noise Machine without a peep of protest from GOP “policy” makers, for decades, is the real pandemic now threatening the US.
–TP
Calling my Senators and Rep to ask them to publicly call for removal. Don’t really care whether it’s by 25th or impeachment.
And of course they have been taking calls from MAGAts proclaiming that the rioters were all Antifa and BLM
the pictures of the mob in front of the Senate door all show a guy dressed like some kind of Braveheart / Viking.
and here he is at the top of a AZ Central article from Oct about Qanon, holding a sign that says “Q sent me”
Larison wants Trump impeached (no surprise there) but so does Dreher.
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/trump-weimar-america-maga-mob-capitol/
Hell, even Andy Ngo ( not high on my list of people I trust) seems shocked.
I am probably being overly optimistic and will take this back in a few days or weeks, but maybe this is the event that finally shames some Republicans into facing the idiocy they have supported.
Actually, people being what they are, it will have to be done in some face saving kind of way. Maybe something like “ yeah, the Democrats stole the election but we have to go through the courts and not endorse mob violence because we are better than that”. Something like that might happen.
“ yeah, the Democrats stole the election but we have to go through the courts and not endorse mob violence because we are better than that”.
Sounds like a very close rendering of House Minority Leader McCarthy’s remarks earlier.
maybe this is the event that finally shames some Republicans into facing the idiocy they have supported
Perhaps, and perhaps not. But what it really needs to do is shame Fox et al, by showing them the consequences of their reality-denial project. Someone I know monitors Fox News quite often, she said that in the day after Trump’s recent call to Raffensperger when every other channel had the story on wall-to-wall, non-stop, Fox barely mentioned it, and then only a couple of times in the day.
Latest call to invoke the 25th Amendment. From the National Association of Manufacturers (well-known lefties that they all are).
Trump brings this to an end by conceding and telling everyone to go home.
My first reaction as an authoritarian was just shoot them.
But I watched all day and mostly those people stood around and waved signs and chanted.
I’m more inclined to worry, as I’m sure the police are, that some of the people who did get inside had explosives.
But they could still shoot the ones on the balcony.
But no one of significance supported the armed overthrow of the government. There’s that.
Two more weeks.
Trump brings this to an end by conceding and telling everyone to go home.
Other than the video statement, the only person more invisible than Trump today is McConnell. We’ve seen more (and better) comment from President Bush than from Trump. Just can’t see Trump doing that.
The woman who was shot in the Capitol has reportedly died from her wounds.
Anyone who is surprised by any of this hasn’t been paying attention. IMO.
Another day that will live in infamy. Throw this bastard out.
The spirit of 76 lives
https://twitter.com/KevOnStage/status/1346937897060945920
I think they deleted the film clip on the tweet I just posted, I am guessing so the woman can’t be easily identified.
And now Twitter has locked Trump’s account. For 12 hours, and to be extended if he doesn’t take down 2 tweets from earlier which incite to violence.
Better late than never, I suppose. (Can Trump live without being able to tweet?)
FFS, somebody post a few pics for Marty’s benefit.
–TP
FFS, somebody post a few pics for Marty’s benefit.
decline.
Anyone who is surprised by any of this hasn’t been paying attention. IMO.
true dat.
he’s been leading up to this since before he took office.
Well, just took a little insurrection to make us go all kumbaya here. So there’s that.
I admit that I have a nasty, suspicious mind sometimes. And I doubt that Trump has the mental ability to form such a plan. But consider.
What we have seen today was/is an insurrection — a term that I have heard used several times today by people who actually know the law. Which would allow President Trump to invoke the Insurrection Act. Which, in his mind, might be a way to use the military (which he thinks belongs to him) to overturn or nullify the election. It wouldn’t work, because the military wouldn’t cooperate. But does Trump know that?
As I say, I doubt is is capable of setting up these riots for that purpose. But….
lj,
Our old friend McKinney, much to his credit, was already humming a couple of bars of Kumbaya before the MAGAts assaulted the Capitol.
–TP
It won’t last, lj. I’ve seen this effect before (with Tiananmen Square), people have strong reactions against in the immediate aftermath, but as time goes by it recedes and people backslide. I hope I’m wrong, it’s certainly a far from perfect analogy.
Welcome to sweeps week, people.
Josh Marshall at TPM asks a good question:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/is-the-president-still-president
–TP
he’s been leading up to this since before he took office
Exactly right. You just needed clear eyes to see it, and many of us had them.
Welcome to sweeps week, people.
If things settle down to some kind of normal, expect layoffs at media companies of those people Trump kept employed for over four years…
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2021/01/trump-again-praises-insurrectionists
It’s too late. All that is left is the killing.
Not wish-fullfillment; the fact of the matter.
I’d be happy to raise subhuman Hawley’s children as RINO’s and let them go, to fend.
But he’d kill them, the Christian little f*ck.
I feel the need to bring this post back from the archives
https://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2020/04/looking-for-death.html
And no points for guessing who wrote this
Nope, I’m comparing much larger, but lefty’ish, groups that actually did or do something with groups that are ineffectual, and in the former case, not equating either with impending communist revolution while laughing my ass off at the ridiculous notion that the clowns in MI and elsewhere are even in the same universe as Franco, or that our situation is even remotely similar to Spain in 1936.
OKC was pretty much a one-off. Timothy McVeigh is not 100% unique, but he is in a very, very small league. The only one who comes close–that I can recall off-hand–is Anders Breivik, the Norwegian mass murderer. Those kinds of atrocities–the result of psychopathy, fairly high IQ, intense focus and long term planning–are not in the skill set we see on display in this pissant rallies.
If you equate the RW pissants with the Antifa + the OWS crowd and just consider them to be the “muscle” behind the Right and Left Wing extremes, I’m not sure who has who outnumbered. I’m reasonably confident that if you added both sides together, you still have a very, very small minority.
As for “exploding heads”, look at the overwrought title of this thread. Jesus.
Had I known that every comment by McT should have been caveated with a ‘I’m not following any of this stuff, I only know what filters into my hermetically sealed room’, I might have taken it a little less seriously.
Dreher gets what he deserves from the commentariat he nurtured, fed, with the nutrients of Christian orthodox hate:
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/trump-weimar-america-maga-mob-capitol/
As he wrote in …. whatever.
Oh, for suck’s sake:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/pence-senate-leaders-condemn-trumps-mob-resume-process-to-formally-certify-biden
Too late to spit.
Lj,
Speaking for myself,mctx is on the right side of the most pressing issue.
If we were talking policy and not armed insurrection….
Those…. should probe a “?”
I hate doing this on my phone.
Ffs
Probably be a
Yes, he’s on the right side, and good on him. I’m just hoping that he might reevaluate his previous blithe dismissals of folks here.
btw
https://www.kusi.com/kusi-news-confirms-identity-of-woman-shot-and-killed-inside-us-capitol/
The woman is Ashli Babbit, a 14-year veteran, who served four tours with the US Air Force, and was a high level security official throughout her time in service.
(emphasis mine)
I have to read more, but my first impression is that thes people— the Capitol mob— were a bunch of clowns. They are criminals too and Trump should be impeached and maybe charged with whatever is appropriate. But they were as juvenile as Trump.
That was the point of the clip I linked above, though I think the video was deleted. It showed this idiot , a woman who identified herself as Elizabeth from Knoxville, seemingly shocked that she had been maced. Asked why she tried to enter the Capitol, she said they were trying to start a Revolution.
This kind of thing, a mob attack on the Capitol, is serious, but it is also ridiculous. Trump has the kind of buffoonish supporters one might expect. Would serious revolutionaries of any sort pick this freakish clown as their great leader?
I think we all agree that they are clowns. (we do, right?) The problem is we have a surfeit of clowns. How does the country deal with it?
Maybe by pointing out that everyone who voted for that Orange turd, regardless of their motivations, has to take some responsibility? You see the same with Brexit and the conservatives. Anyone who voted for that party needs to have a sign hung around their neck saying ‘ignore anything I say’. Of course, positing that as an option, I’ll get accused of being a member of the cancel culture…
So, they were trying to start a Revolution. But apparently didn’t expect more than token opposition. Because otherwise, the only surprise would be that she got maced rather than, you know, shot.
No wonder so many of us see these people as clueless morons who are totally out of touch with reality.
I fear for the safety of my new presumptive senators-elect; the ceaseless tv ads that were run against them called them the “enemy”, only be voting for the Republicans could we “Save America”. Easy to imagine a few people taking that to heart.
“BY voting” dammit
speaking of voting…there may be some serious vote whipping going on amongst the cabinetry.
I think we all agree that they are clowns. (we do, right?) The problem is we have a surfeit of clowns. How does the country deal with it?
We elect good Democrats, and we do good and bold things, and we then stand up, unashamed, to proudly defend what we’ve done….and keep pushing left, ever left to bend the curve toward justice.
And by the way, McKinney…property is theft. BOO!
there may be some serious vote whipping going on amongst the cabinetry.
Wonder if those “acting” Secretaries count….
Seriously, the 25th Amendment just says “the principal officers of the executive departments,” so presumably they do. (Although given some of the court decisions concerning Chad Wolf of Homeland Security, he may be an exception.)
Of course, Trump would immediately file suit, since that’s what he does.
Huh. Looks like redstate is down.
Interesting.
Back up now, and full on batxit insane as usual.
Nazis were not clowns.
Bolsheviks were not clowns.
al qaeda were not clowns.
The Confederacy did not wear floppy shoes and squirt their slaves and America in the eye via their lapel flowers and then pile into the clown car and go home.
We had to kill them.
We indulge these anti-American conservative movement vermin, Trump and all the way down, by referring to them as clowns.
Daddy, can we go to the circus again next year? Because the circus will back in town unless it is burned to the ground.
Once again we miss the fucking point. AGAIN!
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2021/01/tucker-its-not-your-fault-its-their-fault/
They must be destroyed.
They must find no quarter in America.
Nowhere, except the grave.
I will now take another fucking hiatus.
The polls are in.
45% of republicans approve of trump’s putsch.
Just as 45% of Poles approved of the Holocaust, which is why conservative movement vermin once again rule Poland.
It never ends.
https://wvmetronews.com/2021/01/06/w-va-delegate-just-sworn-in-among-the-rioters-storming-u-s-capitol/
La commedia è finita!
Autocrats and repressive regimes around the world are already using this disaster to justify their rule and suppression of dissent – great.
On the up side, hopefully this will make the US a bit more reluctant to “bring democracy” to countries around the world – at least in the near future.
PS can some of the mods have chat with nooneithinkisinmytree? I’m willing to debate many things, but calling for summary execution of whole families and a few million political opponents is a bit beyond the pale, no?
(I know that’s his “style” and not meant literally etc, but still).
novakant, no one wants to have that chat because it’s a pain to type the name out…
So, they were trying to start a Revolution. But apparently didn’t expect more than token opposition. Because otherwise, the only surprise would be that she got maced rather than, you know, shot.
they probably expected to be greeted as liberators because their cause is so righteous and self-evidently correct.
bubble babies.
As if I didn’t already love her enough, Stacey Abrams tweeted this yesterday:
While today’s terrible display of terror and meanness shakes us, let’s remember:
@ossoff, Jewish son of an immigrant & @ReverendWarnock, first Black Senator from Georgia, will join a Catholic POTUS & the first woman, Black + Indian VP in our nation’s capital. God bless America.
At least the insurrectionists aren’t devil-worshiping pedophiles.
It has to be asked. That newly elected Representative who was making such a show as she paraded around the Capitol with her gun on her hip. Where was she when it hit the fan? (I suppose she might have been with the mob, like the guy lj mentions above at 4:01. But I’m guessing she’s just another reality TV type who gets off on flaunting her gun, but doesn’t have the guts to use it.)
At least the insurrectionists aren’t devil-worshiping pedophiles.
Because being a Trump-worshiper is soooo much better….
That newly elected Representative who was making such a show as she paraded around the Capitol with her gun on her hip. Where was she when it hit the fan?
She was on the House floor as one of the members speaking in support of the disallowing Arizona’s votes.
FB just banned Trump “indefinitely”.
five years too late. but…
I’m still trying to get my head around the fact that, apparently, it was VP Pence and NOT Pres. Trump who directed the National Guard be mobilized. The only legal basis I can see for that is if the 25th Amendment had already been invoked. Not that I’m sorry that somebody stepped up. But have we reached the point where, de facto, Trump is being ignored by the rest of the government?
wj, re: your 11:35,
I thought the same thing. Maybe someone should say something?
But have we reached the point where, de facto, Trump is being ignored by the rest of the government?
i’ve read that’s exactly what’s happening.
rather than go full 25th, the cabinet is just ‘working around him’ while he sulks in the corner.
sapient, This
https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/06/politics/pence-national-guard/index.html
seems to say that the (acting) Defense Secretary and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs said they spoke with Pence, with the Congressional leaders, but . . . not that they spoke with Trump.
rather than go full 25th, the cabinet is just ‘working around him’ while he sulks in the corner.
I’m seeing the same thing. It makes sense. Not exactly constitutional but it will do for the next couple of weeks. Particularly if there aren’t enough votes for a 25th A solution, which might prove counter productive in the long run anyway.
i’ve read that’s exactly what’s happening.
rather than go full 25th, the cabinet is just ‘working around him’ while he sulks in the corner.
I’d really, really, rather we not have yet more ignoring of the legal processes that are already in place to deal with the situation. High time we get back to the norm of following the law.
McK, what’s counterproductive about going full 25th? It seems to me the workaround just fuels the “deep state” nonsense.
High time we get back to the norm of following the law.
Not to mention the fact that the country deserves to know who’s in charge.
McK, what’s counterproductive about going full 25th? It seems to me the workaround just fuels the “deep state” nonsense.
A couple of things. Of course, it’s all a trade-off and whatever is going to throw off unintended consequences. That said, keep two things in mind: (1) “if you’re going to shoot the king, you better not miss” and (2) DT’s fans aren’t rational. A failed 25th A attempt would feed the Deep State meme, maybe more than even a successful one, but either way, you’d be confirming their world view and making DT a cause celebre’ into perpetuity. Or, at least that is one outcome. Plus, who knows what crazy shit DT would do if a minority of his cabinet shot and missed?
As of today, he’s lost his social media presence and is becoming increasingly marginalized. He is likely a legitimate candidate for a 25th A removal given his mental state, but again, does that do anything to make the crazies less crazy? Removal might make the rest of us feel better, but we aren’t the ones tearing shit up. We can be patient.
Opposing a 25th A removal isn’t the hill I’d die on. I’m just saying the downside risk, give the de facto implementation we already seem to have, is the devil we know and it’s one we can live with.
The GOP is using what it can to disguise, paper over, and otherwise blur its complicity in the damage it’s done to the US.
“Invoking the 25th” (a turn of phrase which infuriates me, BTW: Does one “invoke” surgery to remove a cancer?) is just another way of not-really-doing-anything. Invoke today, Invoke tomorrow; take real action? Never.
The MSM is of course going along with all this. My alarm clock plays NPR, and within the first minute of waking up was announcing a story about yesterday’s failed coup and the person they were interviewing was…. wait for it… a GOP strategist.
(I get a kick out of how much conservatives hate NPR. I guess they haven’t listened to it in years, because it’s been extra special kind to the GOP ever since Bush II.)
the person they were interviewing was…. wait for it… a GOP strategist.
hah! it’s always a GOP strategist!
i haven’t listened to NPR since March 12th (last day i drove to work), but i don’t miss it. and the biggest part of why i don’t miss it is the way they always have a GOP strategist on hand to tell us what things mean. the NPR host just makes non-committal grunts and hmms while the GOP strategist spreads intellectual manure across the country.
intellectual manure
wow. way to use the wrong metaphor, cleek.
maybe intellectual RoundUp would be better.
There have to be clear, visible consequences for a president who incites an assault on the Capitol. Shrugging it off because there are only two weeks left in his term is not acceptable. He must be removed.
Shrugging it off because there are only two weeks left in his term is not acceptable. He must be removed.
Agreed, there must be consequences. But a charge of inciting to riot (or conspiracy to sedition or whatever) would also be acceptable. And less time-driven than removal at this point.
…Particularly if there aren’t enough votes for a 25th A solution, which might prove counter productive in the long run anyway.
What about the short run? Isn’t it dangerous to have a man in charge of the US military who is in favour of the violent reversal of election results?
An anti-American gathering like this in ANY of the other 193 countries on the globe, in which high-levels actors are plotting and directing the overthrow of the US Government, unless it was in China or Russia, lucky duckies like America, would be the target of multiple deadly drone strikes.
Find out what General Grant is drinking, so I can send a case of it to all of the Obsidian Wings Generals.
https://twitter.com/edi_samira?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1347176030495272960%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.balloon-juice.com%2F
nooneithinkisinmytree and all of his more spellable handles will take a break now and give himself a good talking-to.
Wash your hands, wear your masks, and stay away from armed superspreaders.
Good news regarding Limbaugh is on its way.
There have to be clear, visible consequences for a president who incites an assault on the Capitol. Shrugging it off because there are only two weeks left in his term is not acceptable.
absolutely right.
the woman who got killed was there because she believed Trump’s self-serving lies. she dies because of his lies.
a reckoning must happen.
i had forgotten about this (because Trump generates too much horror to remember), but Trump encouraged his cult to take over the MI state house, way back in April. and they did.
antifa has people everywhere!
Well, the first breach of the Capitol since the Brits dropped by uninvited in 1812…
and even Robert E Lee never managed to fly a confederate flag in the Capitol.
Elaine Chao, wife of Mitch McConnell, is reportedly resigning her cabinet post. Rather than, say, voting for a 25th Amendment solution.
per the perennial question:
As I negotiate with myself, THIS:
‘Rep. Susan Wild, a Pennsylvania Democrat, told CBS that members of Congress who were placed in a secure location during the riot with 300 people to 400 people, also created a superspreader event as many lawmakers refused to wear a face mask.
“It’s what I would call a COVID super spreader event. About half of the people in the room are not wearing masks, even though they’ve been offered surgical masks,” Wild said on CBS. “They’ve refused to wear them.”
Wild said Republicans were the main refuseniks, with some freshman Republican congressmen “openly flaunting” the fact that they would not wear a mask.
“It’s exactly the kind of situation that we’ve been told by the medical doctors not to be in, you know, close proximity, especially with people who aren’t wearing masks,” Wild added. “We weren’t even allowed to get together with our families for Thanksgiving and Christmas, and now we’re in a room with people who are flaunting the rules and are very much crowded in here.”’
We also know that at least several of the Nazi caucus were packing weapons so requests to don masks would probably have been met with deadly violence.
These are genocidal murderers. They have deliberately set up a situation in which if the killer virus is contracted by innocent Democrats shoved shoulder to shoulder into a space with their killers, it could be transmitted asymptomatically by innocent Democrats who meet with President Joe Biden and his staff in the coming weeks.
That’s attempted assassination of the President of the United States, just as sure as sneaking a bomb in to Nancy Pelosi’s handbag, unbeknownst to her, would be, to be detonated remotely by the subhuman terrorist conservative movement as she meets with Joe Biden in the White House or on Air Force One.
I can’t protect novakant, a good person.
But I’ll protect myself from these murderous vermin and the nothin’ we ain’t seen yet.
Now I’ll continue remonstrating with nooneithinkisinmytree and his kin regarding their dreadful rhetoric:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7avWjBmRXu0
now we’re talkin:
“If the vice president and the cabinet do not act, the congress may be prepared to move forward with impeachment,”
— Pelosi
“If the vice president and the cabinet refuse to stand up, Congress should reconvene to impeach the president,”
–Shumer
wj at 2:10: Sometimes I think you read my mind.
I’m trying to understand what exactly the folks who stormed Congress thought they were going to achieve.
Throw out the electoral votes and start over? Throw out the electoral votes and pronounce Trump the winner?
Just go yell at Congresspeople and fnck sh*t up?
Was there a purpose besides just running amok and acting like a bunch of belligerent dumb-asses?
Just go yell at Congresspeople and fnck sh*t up?
i think most of them were there for this one.
but a few had zip-ties and close-combat weapons. and there’s talk that they were looking for Pence (a focus of Trump’s rally speech). so it possible they were there to try to make Pence do whatever they thought he didn’t do w/r/t the EC votes.
and there was a lot of talk among the nuts about disrupting the count of the EC votes (which they did do) and leaving the process in chaos. which i guess would put pressure on someone to do something and then…
but yeah, it’s unclear.
I’m trying to understand what exactly the folks who stormed Congress thought they were going to achieve.
Mind reading is never easy. Observers tend to impute motives to others that fit the obverver’s own biases. That said, given the proximity in time between DT’s exhortations to show the election thieves that he and his peeps were not going to take it lying down, etc, etc and the riot itself, my guess would be a collective but ill-defined intent to punish the election stealers and make the Big Guy happy by doing so.
they also clearly thought they’d be welcomed as liberators.
so maybe they were hoping to inspire the people in the Capitol building to rise up with them and … ?
Was there a purpose besides just running amok and acting like a bunch of belligerent dumb-asses?
They clearly want a civil war. Nobody does that to one of the most important (symbolic and real) elements of our Democracy without wanting to demolish it. The traitors who died? I really don’t care. Do u?
i feel bad that that woman died. she was gullible. but Trump et al took advantage of those gullible people for their owns selfish ends.
I’m trying to understand what exactly the folks who stormed Congress thought they were going to achieve.
1. “thought” is using the word very loosely
2. But why not just take them at their word?
I’m trying to understand what exactly the folks who stormed Congress thought they were going to achieve.
Throw out the electoral votes and start over? Throw out the electoral votes and pronounce Trump the winner?
Well, according to at least one person interviewed by NPR:
“On the news, they keep saying now that they shouldn’t have said that [Vice President] Pence can stop the certification, that was just a big lie … They didn’t say that before,” she says. “Maybe some of the other news stations that I don’t trust, but the ones that I do, that’s not what they were saying.”
“Had Pence come out and said flat out like, ‘no, I can’t change this,’ … I would have been like, ‘well, that’s a big old bust,’ but I would have believed him,” she said. “I mean, people would have moved along. ”
Instead, Pence waited until midday Wednesday, after thousands of people had gathered to protest, to make it clear he would not overthrow the results.
“It’s very frustrating,” Laughlin says.
https://www.npr.org/sections/congress-electoral-college-tally-live-updates/2021/01/07/954257324/storming-the-capitol-didnt-change-the-election-some-trump-backers-realize
I’m trying to understand what exactly the folks who stormed Congress thought they were going to achieve
Think back to when you were in college. After a sports rally, the frat boys would run riot. Essentially just because they were full of adrenaline and they could.
At one point (in the late 60s), when there were riots nearby, I stopped a fellow student who was heading to them. I asked him why, since he didn’t care about the nominal cause. “Because it’s exciting.”
In short, I doubt any of them thought deeply enough to consider what they might accomplish. Beyond acting out.
When people show you who they are, believe them.
(Which is to say, gullible, ignorant and easy to manipulate because led by their emotions alone).
I also keep thinking this about DJT prior to his win in 2016 (Someone beat the crap outta him wouldja?)
she was gullible.
Gullible means you don’t get the joke, or you really think that someone’s old coffee table is worth $30,000. People who are so horrible that they’ll go storm the Capitol with a bunch of people carrying Confederate flags and pro-Holocaust T-Shirts? Nah.
somebody’s gonna have a long interview.
Gullible because they believed flagrant, easily refutable lies. Gullible because they believe DJT is the greatest president in history (one of them said this on the news).
wj @ 5:18, I’m not digging up more links, but I think you’re dead wrong. This was planned right out in the open (or so I have read). People came from far away to do precisely the thing that they did, egged on, enabled, and more or less commanded, by their idol.
It was not spontaneous idiocy. Think along the lines of the people who were caught before they could carry out their plan to kidnap and kill the governor of Michigan. Stop thinking of excuses that make it sound like this is a bunch of off the cuff hijinks that got out of control. These people may be gullible and as dumb as dirt, but they are not harmless.
Gullible because they believed flagrant, easily refutable lies. Gullible because they believe DJT is the greatest president in history (one of them said this on the news).
I’m gullible. I’m not that gullible.
Believing absurdities makes committing atrocities easier.
Insomniac that I am, I was watching while Mitt Romney said this in the Senate floor last night:
I sincerely hope, without evidence I admit, that bolded part is correct.
At the very, very least Biden, Pelosi, and Schumer must set up a Truth and Reconciliation Commission. I’d prefer prosecutions, of course, but public contrition by the likes of Cruz and Hawley, Limbaugh and Carlson, Jarred and Ivanka, and a couple of hundred other lickspittles is a minimum requirement. I count Lindsey Graham and Susie Collins among the lickspittles, BTW.
If Biden repeats Obama’s mistake of “looking forward not back” there will be another Il Douche for the deplorables to worship, soon enough.
–TP
People who are so horrible that they’ll go storm the Capitol with a bunch of people carrying Confederate flags and pro-Holocaust T-Shirts?
if Trump wasn’t spinning these tall tales, she’d have been home ragetweeting about Pelosi instead of trying to start the revolution.
she was horrible. but dying because you were dumb enough to fall for Trump’s deliberate lies seems sad to me. lock the rest of them up – fine with me. that’s punishment enough.
ymmv
Also, a thought for GOP people who are concerned about their party’s slide into an InfoWars hellscape.
Maybe all that partisan districting and gerrymandering was a bad idea after all? If those districts were less safe, then they’d be under less pressure from Qanon idiots trying to primary you from deep in psychotic break land.
Election reform is your friend.
if Trump wasn’t spinning these tall tales, she’d have been home ragetweeting about Pelosi instead of trying to start the revolution.
Maybe. Or maybe accusing her Democratic neighbor of being a pedophile. Or maybe torturing immigrants. You never know about people who are gullible in that particular Nazi way.
i’ll say it once more: i don’t think she should have died.
Ymmv.
wj @ 5:18, I’m not digging up more links, but I think you’re dead wrong. This was planned right out in the open
Just for the record, the riots I referred to were planned, too. If not “right out in the open”, openly enough that I knew about it, in spite of not being particularly inclined to dig. Planned by people who also had minimal interest in the nominal cause — they explicitly wanted to overthrow of the US government.
Ymmv.
It does. It’s not that she “should” have died. I just don’t care that she did.
you’ve made that perfectly clear
I hope everyone here has written to their Congressman, as I have, calling for immediate impeachment. The process needs to start immediately. (And if the 25th Amendment gets invoked in the meantime, so much the better.)
They clearly want a civil war.
It’s clear to me that they want to talk about a civil war. It’s less clear to me that they actually want to engage in one. Or that they understand, in the slightest, what engaging in one would actually be like, for them or anyone else.
The woman in Janie’s link stormed the Capitol, thinking she was sparking a revolution, and then was surprised that she was maced. Right?
Another person there expressed surprise that the Capitol cops drew guns on them. They’re supposed to shoot the BLM people, not the patriots!! (That person’s words, not mine).
So it seems to me that at least some of the people involved are profoundly, and I do mean profoundly, naive.
It seems like they thought if they went to the Capitol and yelled at enough Congresspeople and made a mess, they would somehow persuade Pence (or whoever) to reject the electoral college vote. Maybe even to simply pronounce Trump POTUS, based on what, I don’t know.
But it seems like they thought all of this would actually change something. Like, right then, in the moment. Not a protest, not an expression of disagreement or displeasure, but actually change the outcome of the election.
Which just seems out-of-this-world nutty. Like, let’s elevate the Pentagon nutty. At least the hippies could blame it on weed or acid or whatever.
Mostly, I make these people out to be naive, ignorant, and with a chip on their shoulder the size of Montana. Which is dangerous, but in some weird way that I can’t really put my finger on. Naive is the closest thing I can come up with, but without the sense of innocence that naivete implies.
Foolish, profoundly so, but nonetheless culpable.
If they really and truly want a civil war, then I guess we’ll have one, because if folks start shooting at people and blowing stuff up, other folks are not going to sit around on their hands and meekly accept getting shot at.
But I don’t really see that happening. To be perfectly honest. Because I don’t think these folks really want it.
Maybe that was actually their attempt at a civil war and they just really suck at it, which if so is to the advantage of the rest of us.
And for the record, I’m with cleek. I think the woman in question was a knucklehead, but I’m very sorry she died. As well as the other three who died from medical complications, whatever those were.
From LGM….
this (a figment of insight into how these folks “think”) and this (what we should do).
knucklehead
I’m interested in what people think is the difference in culpability among haters, their organizers, their adherents, etc.
I’ve worked to elect certain people, but haven’t run for anything and don’t enact or implement policy. But I feel responsible (to a limited extent) and proud of my preferences. Am I a naive know-nothing?
She wasn’t a knucklehead. By all accounts, she was a smart woman who chose to believe in hateful malignant bs. Is Jim Jordan just a knucklehead too? I wouldn’t care if he died either. (And I doubt that either of them would care about me – and that doesn’t bother me a bit.)
Maybe I should feel guilty that I save my grief and compassion for people who aren’t actively trying to ruin my country (of whom there are many also dropping dead).
Sorry, folks. I’m obviously callous.
At the very, very least Biden, Pelosi, and Schumer must set up a Truth and Reconciliation Commission. I’d prefer prosecutions, of course, but public contrition by the likes of Cruz and Hawley, Limbaugh and Carlson, Jarred and Ivanka, and a couple of hundred other lickspittles is a minimum requirement. I count Lindsey Graham and Susie Collins among the lickspittles, BTW.
Yeah, I’m pretty sure having an inquiry into your political opponents’ viewpoints and policy preferences is probably not the America many of us signed up for, which is why many of us find yesterday’s events so abhorrent. Prosecute DT and the rioters, no problem. The rest? Sorry, it’s America and they can think and say what they want and not have to answer to anyone for it. Just like the rest of us.
“This is not America,” a woman said to a small group, her voice shaking. She was crying, hysterical. “They’re shooting at us. They’re supposed to shoot BLM, but they’re shooting the patriots.”
Paraphrased by russell, and in bobbyp’s first link.
Not just naive, or racist. Absolutely unaware of how easily they have been manipulated, fed false information, and played. It would be sad, if there weren’t so many of them, it wasn’t so terrible and the consequences so serious.
Naive is the closest thing I can come up with, but without the sense of innocence that naivete implies.
I think we need a word like naive, but which encompasses willful ignorance. These people are disconnected from the real world. But that’s because they have chosen to abandon sources of information about it for pseudo-news outlets which present fantasy as reality. To the point, apparently, that even a face full of mace (or, for others, dying of covid) isn’t enough to provide an effective reality check.
Anyone with a better vocabulary than mine, please help out with a word. Or even a shorter phrase. Because clearly we need one.
Anyone with a better vocabulary than mine, please help out with a word. Or even a shorter phrase. Because clearly we need one.
russell uses the word “knucklehead” and seems to apply it to people like this, whereas my former use of the term referred to “big lugs” and people who were endearing but not in a smart way.
It’s all good. I probably should have thought of storming the White House; but hey, I thought if I did, I would probably get killed.
I’m interested in what people think is the difference in culpability among haters, their organizers, their adherents, etc.
I’d put maximum culpability on those who know better, but feed the fantasy and organize the ignorant for their own ends. Horrible as I find Trump, I actually have a worse opinion of Hawley. Trump, to some extent, believes his own fantasies. Hawley damn well knows it’s all bullshit. But for power and personal gain, is
willingeager to embrace the insanity.they can think and say what they want and not have to answer to anyone for it. Just like the rest of us.
I take your general point. But how do you propose to deal with the phenomenon of Fox, OANN, Newsmax and all DJT’s GOP enablers pumping out lies about (but not limited to) the election, the economy etc etc, such that a considerable percentage of the population believes them and then acts on them? You yourself have told us in the past that leftwing violence in the US is a more serious problem than rightwing, in direct contradiction of the FBI’s findings. If not from the rightwing noise machine, I don’t know where you got that info, but the people breaking into the Capitol yesterday believe it too. How is this to be countered?
Russell/GFTNC/WJ, I propose: malignantly naïve hubris.
I can’t do any better than what I said above:
gullible, ignorant and easy to manipulate because led by their emotions alone
and I leave it to you to work out which of those three qualities is the worst – FWIW I am leaning towards the last one. Their kneejerk response to the words “patriotism”, “USA! USA! USA!” etc, not to mention the nauseating spectacle of Trump hugging the flag with that ridiculous expression on his face – words fail me.
So it seems to me that at least some of the people involved are profoundly, and I do mean profoundly, naive.
Well, not this guy.
Trump has just tweeted a short video throwing his loyal supporters yesterday under the bus. Surprise surprise. He must have been pretty nervous, what with all this talk of A25 or impeachment.
Things were bad enough yesterday that even a libertarian writer is criticizing the capitol police for not protecting the seat of the central government.
Some of the conspiracy-minded, not libertarians, suggest the police light touch is just more evidence of a false flag operation.
“The Capitol Police are coming under well-deserved scrutiny after they failed to prevent rioters from storming the Capitol building yesterday, then killed an unarmed woman who joined the break-in.
“I think it’s pretty clear that there’s going to be a number of people who are going to be without employment very, very soon,” said Rep. Tim Ryan (D–Ohio), the lead House appropriator for Capitol Police, on a conference call with reporters yesterday. “This is the U.S. Capitol building with the House and the Senate in session. We knew. Donald Trump signaled this. There was enough time to prepare.”
The House’s sergeant-at-arms has already resigned. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D–Calif.) is demanding the resignation of Capitol Hill Police Chief Steve Sund. Chuck Schumer (D–N.Y.), soon to be the Senate majority leader, says he’ll fire the Senate’s sergeant-at-arms when his party takes over that chamber.”
Capitol Police Failed To Contain a Riot, Then Killed a Woman in the Chaos: Yesterday’s events at the Capitol building should be understood as a colossal law enforcement failure.
Also saying HE called the National Guard. I wonder if anybody will contradict him…
Hawley damn well knows it’s all bullshit. But for power and personal gain, is willing eager to embrace the insanity.
Hawley’s playing with fire may have torched his political future.
Seems to me that an armed attack on Congress, during the counting of electoral votes, rather neatly fits the Constitutionally-defined crime of TREASON.
And it’s not like there aren’t enough witnesses to Trump’s part in it.
I don’t cut adults any slack if they make a conscious decision to limit their view of the world to sources that lie.
Adults have a responsibility to know what is a lie and what is the truth. That’s why “adult” has a different legal status than “minor.” Adults are supposed to understand concepts like consequences, thinking things through, “if it seems too good to be true… it probably is”,” and stuff like that.
I am not going to waste my sympathy on people who made conscious, deliberate decisions to create their own personal universe of falsehoods, grievances, brutishness, and cruelty… to worship and follow leaders who celebrate those despicable traits…and then are shocked! shocked! when the real world hits back.
I’ll save my sympathy for people who were damaged and destroyed by them.
When I hear four people who were part of the mob died, my reaction is basically, “Well, there are four fewer votes for Republicans.”
I wonder how his loyal henchpeeps will react to this latest video saying they should be pursued and punished to the fullest extent of the law? You’d normally assume people in that position would feel betrayed, but given the cult-like nature of it, perhaps they will just incorporate it somehow into their mad world view?
I wonder how his loyal henchpeeps will react to this latest video saying they should be pursued and punished to the fullest extent of the law? You’d normally assume people in that position would feel betrayed, but given the cult-like nature of it, perhaps they will just incorporate it somehow into their mad world view?
I think we need a word like naive, but which encompasses willful ignorance.
credulous.
also scared and manipulated and full of hate as a result.
the is what the GOP has become: a system by which the base is kept in a terrified rage over lies told to them by people who use them for money, and now as cannon fodder. they are trapped in the GOP mythology.
a cult. and like all cults, the leaders are either rue believers or simply using the flock for power.
i hate that they’re there. i want them out. i don’t want them to die over it. in most cases it’s probably not their fault.
“Cloud cuckoo?”
“Magic Pony Warrior?”
“Dumb Quixote?”
She wasn’t a knucklehead. By all accounts, she was a smart woman
to clarify terms:
Knucklehead is a term used, at least by me, to refer to people who behave recklessly and foolishly and without regard for the safety and interests of other people.
It’s a usage I learned from a state cop, as applied to me, with ample justification.
Interchangeable with dumb-ass and bonehead.
I recognize other usages, including sapient’s.
I don’t think the woman was intellectually incapable, I think she was foolish. In McK’s apt turn of phrase, malignantly and hubristically so.
And now, she’s dead. Which is in no small measure on her – play a stupid game, win a stupid prize, isn’t that what the right-wing tough guys like to say? – but it’s also sad, for her and anyone who was part of her life.
I don’t wish that crap on anybody, including people who bring it on themselves.
Well, not this guy.
No, not that guy. You lose the ‘naive’ excuse when you cash the checks.
credulous.
also scared and manipulated and full of hate as a result.
the is what the GOP has become
wcs
does anyone remember the good old days of “pace and lead”?
good times.
I’ll also say that former or active military who were involved, and elected officials who were involved, get no excuse IMO.
Those folks took an oath.
actually, I’m coming around on this.
having seen pictures of Sledgehammer Guy and Zip Tie Guy, I have to say f*** these people.
You don’t bring a sledgehammer or zip ties to a peaceful demonstration. Somehow the words “zip tie” and “naive” don’t seem to belong together.
Round every one of these bastards up, sweat them until they give up everybody they’re associated with, and send them all to jail. Them, their pals, and the horse they rode in on.
The poor innocent ones who simply got swept up in it all can make their case, and good luck to them.
Maybe a little time in jail is what it will take to wise them the hell up.
Sec of Education DeVos just quit.
It occurs to me that these cabinet members who are quitting don’t want to sign on for the 25th Amendment solution. But don’t want to have not signed the letter to Congress if it happens. By resigning, they avoid publicly taking a position.
Profiles in courage
I don’t know how the law works in DC. But in California, if you are involved in the commission of a felony (any felony, from grand theft to riot to felony vandalism) and someone dies, you are also guilty of murder in the first degree. Doesn’t matter if you were just the getaway driver, and never got within a hundred yards of the death. You were involved: murder 1.
IF the law in DC is similar (anybody know?), that would apply to everyone who invaded the Capitol. And everyone (Trump, Giuliani, etc.) who incited the riot. There are plenty of other charges available, of course. But being charged with murder might be the smack upside the head that these delusional morons need.
That sounds too extreme, wj. It sounds like you’d be locking up the entire mob for murder. If I were on the jury there’s no way I’d go along with that.
Trump, however, ought to be charged with something. Incitement, maybe, but I am not a lawyer.
That sounds too extreme, wj. It sounds like you’d be locking up the entire mob for murder. If I were on the jury there’s no way I’d go along with that.
Depends on the jury. Which, after all, isn’t hearing a mass trial.
First, they have to find the defendant guilty of a felony, of course. And the DA might charge selectively there. But then, if the judge instructs them that “this is what the law says,” juries tend to apply it. Actual “jury nullification” (which is what you’re talkung about) is pretty rare.
WRT using conspiracy in prosecution, I agree with Donald. Check out this excellent article and discussion of how it is used from NPR/Louder Than A Riot:
https://www.npr.org/2020/11/28/933436082/bobby-shmurda-authenticity-conspiracy-flatbush-dream-deferred
Police and DA’s abuse the hell out of conspiracy charges to juice conviction rates and boost their own political profiles.
One of the Capitol police has died from injuries received in the riot.
Don’t know if that’s what prompted wj’s 11:30 or not, but beating a cop to death certainly seems like something that deserves a strong response.
Not the whole crowd, just the folks who did it. There’s plenty for the rest of the crowd to answer for as well.
Some in the rest of the crowd are already facing consequences like no job to go back to when their faces are recognized in the various news feeds.
Well, if this woman gets 5 years, what is a fair sentence for buffalo horn guy?
Dropping him unarmed* in that outfit into the Northern wilderness in the fall where large predators are seeking excess food for their hibernation?
Or would that be unbearable?
*with an optional large confederate flag on a pole (a keen survivalist could surely use that for many useful purposes)
conflicting reasons (WaPo of course):
Some in the rest of the crowd are already facing consequences like no job to go back to when their faces are recognized in the various news feeds.
at will employment’s a bitch. ain’t it?
It’s instructive to learn that all it takes to get Trump to behave himself is a 12-hour twitter ban. If only they’d thought of it four years ago.
Unemployment might be the mildest consequence the MAGAts have to face, after their “Sturgis on the Potomac” super-spreader event.
speaking of consequences, Dominion is suing Sidney Powell for… $1,500,000,000
oof.
oh, sorry that’s $1,300,000,000
tee hee
I don’t know how the law works in DC. But in California, if you are involved in the commission of a felony (any felony, from grand theft to riot to felony vandalism) and someone dies, you are also guilty of murder in the first degree. Doesn’t matter if you were just the getaway driver, and never got within a hundred yards of the death. You were involved: murder 1…. IF the law in DC is similar (anybody know?)…
I don’t know, except that it gets quite complicated. Last I knew, murder is not a federal crime. Domestic terrorism, maybe. Anyone who was inside the Capitol is almost certainly already guilty of that, and it carries a possible death penalty. Charging and trying inside the district falls to the US Attorney for the District of Columbia — the local government won’t be involved at all.
I’ve read several people pointing out that BLM and antiwar protestors are usually treated much more harshly by the police, some ( or many) of whom are far right or racist. I gather some people on the left want to call the rioters “ terrorists”. I haven’t seen much of that, but maybe I need to read more. Anyway, here is a counter argument.
https://twitter.com/dialash/status/1347244514650566658
Domestic terrorism, maybe.
domestic terrorism is not a crime. there are at least two separate definitions of what constitutes DT, but neither define it as a crime.
I hope everyone here has written to their Congressman, as I have, calling for immediate impeachment.
My understanding is that calling is more effective than writing. It seems more likely than not that impeachment will happen, so it’s especially important to call Republican Senators if you happen to be represented by one.
Some in the rest of the crowd are already facing consequences like no job to go back to when their faces are recognized in the various news feeds.
Left-wing cancel culture continues to rage out of control.
Last I knew, murder is not a federal crime.
IANAL, but my guess is that beating a Capitol cop to death is federal.
I gather some people on the left want to call the rioters “ terrorists”.
18 US Code para 2331:
What the heck else would you call it?
domestic terrorism is not a crime.
Correct, domestic terrorism has a fairly crisp definition in US Code, but no criminal penalties are specified.
I think there is a fear it would be used to suppress protected speech, and it most likely would be.
As mentioned above, assaulting and killing Capitol police should be sufficient grounds for criminal prosecution, let alone what are certain to be violations of about a million other laws pertaining to federal facilities and Congresspeople and their staff.
and, accessing classified info on laptops. and stealing documents from Pelosi’s desk. and stealing her gavel!
I think that the reason they want to point out the difference in treatment is to highlight the existence of white privilege. Most of the articles that talk about it don’t seem to be demanding that they be called terrorists, they are just suggesting that the color of the protestors skin was a defining point. I obviously think that is a given, so I wonder what people who don’t believe in the existence of white privilege believe is at work here.
Anyway, here’s a few articles, none of them talk about terrorism, it’s more the sense of, as someone tweeted ‘I don’t want the police to shoot them like they shoot black people, I want the police to not shoot black people like they aren’t shooting white people’
https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2021/01/07/figures-show-stark-difference-between-arrests-at-dc-black-lives-matter-protest-and-arrests-at-capitol-hill/?sh=6f1274bf5706
https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/a-tale-of-2-americas-comparing-tepid-response-to-capitol-riots-with-blm-protests/2274129/
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-polices-tepid-response-to-the-capitol-breach-wasnt-an-aberration/
This NPR interview is the only one I’ve noticed that brings up terrorism, but it invokes it not in its legal sense, but in a political sense, arguing that these people have to be removed from the body politic, which I think should happen, but how that takes place, I’m not really sure.
The twitter thread is interesting, but my take on why people on the left want to call it terrorism is not because it opens up more prosecutorial possibilities, it is because it provides a measure of balance. Acknowledging that the purpose is precisely to terrorize others, one imagines it would go to reducing the idea that it is only swarthier types who qualify.
Another reason one might want to call it terrorism is to get away from the lone wolf idea. However, terrorism conjures up a notion of organized and directed violence and it allows us as a nation to wave away all of those mass shooting incidents. The trouble childhood is the province of the white shooter, you rarely, if ever, see it extended to people of color.
Unfortunately, as you note, the clownishness of the whole event, works against it, or as noted on my FB feed: Worst high school production of Les Mis ever!
I’m not sure what to call it, the arguments about referring to Hitler, or Mussolini or Franco or whatever are pretty tedious as is spending blocks of time fighting over what the definition of fascism is. Whatever it is, it sucks, and I only hope that there are penalties, though what those penalties might be, I’m not sure.
I found this article noting that it wasn’t Guiliani’s first rodeo was interesting.
https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2021/01/08/rudy-giuliani-is-accused-of-inciting-a-riot–it-s-not-the-first-time-
Left out the NPR link
https://www.npr.org/2021/01/07/954562052/some-point-out-differences-in-police-treatment-of-capitol-riot-and-blm-protests
On the “terrorism or not” question, I can’t offhand find the FBI study I mentioned to McKinney which found more threat from far right violence than far left, but without undue effort these came up in my first search, and I think they go to lj’s point when he says:
The twitter thread is interesting, but my take on why people on the left want to call it terrorism is not because it opens up more prosecutorial possibilities, it is because it provides a measure of balance. Acknowledging that the purpose is precisely to terrorize others, one imagines it would go to reducing the idea that it is only swarthier types who qualify.
https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/white-supremacist-boogaloo/
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/24/us/domestic-terrorist-groups.html
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/27/us-far-right-violence-terrorist-threat-analysis
The Best Phrase Award goes to Mo Brooks for “fascist ANTIFA.”
Reactions from MAGAts to Trump’s video statement:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/08/trump-incites-anger-among-acolytes-let-down-by-lack-of-support
The Republican Party is a clear and present danger to the liberty of the Republic.
“ I obviously think that is a given, so I wonder what people who don’t believe in the existence of white privilege believe is at work here.”
Virtually everyone ( who isn’t insane) agrees that the police are much harsher with BLM ( and antiwar) protestors than with the white far right rioters. It is because of racism ( or with antiwar protests, ideological bias).
The “ terrorist” label is one that should be restricted to people who plan or execute acts of murderous violence for political purposes. There might even be some guilty of this in Wednesday’s riots. I think I read some accounts of pipe bombs. ( I don’t know if the law defines domestic terrorism or not. KKK violence would fall under my personal definition of it.)
But for the most part Wednesday looked like a bunch of crimes that would not fall under the terrorist label.
The Republican Party is a clear and present danger to the liberty of the Republic.
also a public health hazard.
But for the most part Wednesday looked like a bunch of crimes that would not fall under the terrorist label.
we know they were there, by their own words, to influence the government. and they committed a wide range of crimes, including murder, in that effort.
Susan Bro, the mother of Heather Heyer (who was murdered in Charlottesville):
“This path has always been predictable,” Bro said from her home in Virginia. “For people to now go, ‘I never knew this would happen,’ why not? How would you not see this happen?”
“This is sort of an inevitable conclusion,” she added. “It’s been coming, at least openly, for months, but the trajectory was set years ago.”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/07/capitol-mob-attack-rightwing-rallies-trump
(which is sub-headlined From Charlottesville to the Capitol: how rightwing impunity fueled the pro-Trump mob)
Left-wing cancel culture continues to rage out of control.
The attack on the Capitol could be view as a case of right-wing cancel culture.
my take on why people on the left want to call it terrorism is not because it opens up more prosecutorial possibilities, it is because it provides a measure of balance
I can answer for myself: I call it terrorism because it meets the definition of terrorism as defined in the US Code. It is an attempt to influence a governments actions or policies by violent coercion.
I don’t understand the motivation for calling it anything else.
I forgot my irony tags again.
I was wrong about the criminal part of the domestic terrorism statute (thanks, cleek). It does look to put them within the grasp of federal asset forfeiture, though. I usually think asset forfeiture is a terrible idea, but… Can we take all their stuff? Please?
Take Mar-a-Lago and Trump Tower to start with.
McTX: … I’m pretty sure having an inquiry into your political opponents’ viewpoints and policy preferences is probably not the America many of us signed up for …
McKinney,
I take it for granted that you don’t oppose either Truth or Reconciliation.
I also know you’re smart enough to understand that Reconciliation without Truth is neither likely nor worthwhile.
Truth and Reconciliation is not about viewpoints or policy preferences. Neither is it simply an Airing of Grievances. The idea is to “tell [everyone] the truth”, if I may paraphrase Mitt Romney, in order to effect reconciliation.
For instance: He, Trump either did or did not throw His MAGAt storm troopers under the bus with His statement yesterday. Lindsay Graham did or did not call election officials in several states urging them to find votes for He, Trump or ways to nullify votes for Biden. The money He, Trump raised to “stop the steal” either did or did not go into His pocket. An “inquiry” into the Truth (or not) of lots of things like that has precious little to do with “political viewpoints”, in my book.
And please note: it’s not the same as prosecuting anybody. In fact it’s the alternative.
I suppose a different alternative is to prosecute the MAGAt foot soldiers and pretend the MAGAt generals have nothing to answer for. Fat lot of Reconciliation that will accomplish.
–TP
Last I knew, murder is not a federal crime.
IANAL, but my guess is that beating a Capitol cop to death is federal.
Mostly, murder is not a Federal offense. But if, for example, you kill someone on a military base, that’s a Federal crime. Even if neither you nor the victim are military. The Capitol is likely the same deal.
Not sure where the rest of DC fits. Is murder illegal by act of the DC City Council? Or by Act of Congress? Time to make DC a state, just to get some clarity on that. 🙂
Time to make DC a state
hear hear
we know they were there, by their own words, to influence the government.we know they were there, by their own words, to influence the government.
No. They were there to coerce the government. Merely trying to influence the government is OK. Trying to coerce it is definitely not.
just following the words of the definition of domestic terrorism: “… to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion…”
Yeah, call it terrorism if you agree with the US criminal code definition and you think you live in a country that can responsibly use the word without going batshit crazy, I live in the United States. I think the definition is too broad and it encourages a “ war against terror” mindset which is in itself murderously and self righteously toxic. So maybe you are right on the law, but I do not trust this country or this government ( under any President) to do the right thing once the word “ terrorism” is brought into it. If you have a deliberate murder committed for political reasons, that is terrorism and unfortunately one has to use the word. I say “ unfortunately” because if the past few decades proved anything it is that Americans can’t be trusted to react to terrorism ( when we aren’t doing it ourselves) in a sane rational manner. Coercion and intimidation? Then every protest with some violent types willing to push things further could be seen as an example of terrorism. So we get governmental overreach. If people want to make LJ’s point about the racist double standard, I agree, but I don’t think Muslims and BLM activists will be treated better if the government becomes more consistent in its war on terror, unless having it overreach against white alt right assholes leads to reform. I doubt it would work that way.
These people were guilty of a great many crimes. The ones who were involved in killing a cop can be prosecuted for murder. Others can be prosecuted for whatever laws forbid rioting. The pipe bomb makers ( I haven’t read much about them) should probably be charged with, yes, terrorism or plotting a terrorist act. Trump and probably some other politicians can be prosecuted for incitement to riot. Trump of course should be forbidden from ever holding office again.
OT: I’m sure this has been asked and answered, but: Is there a way to install an additional next-page button that would take us to the most-current (i.e., last) page?
When comments get to TBogg proportions, it would be nice to be able to go quickly to the newest comments.
Isn’t that what “RECENT COMMENTS” is for?
Yeah, call it terrorism if you agree with the US criminal code definition and you think you live in a country that can responsibly use the word without going batshit crazy, I live in the United States.
The idea that calling this right-wing attempt at civil war terrorism is going to have anything to do with what the right-wing does when they’re in power is delusional. The right will abuse power no matter what we do.
In this case, the shoe fits. These were people brandishing emblems of defeated(?) enemies of the United States, expressing an interest in overthrowing duly elected representatives, both Republican and Democrat.
They want a civil war. They want, and created, violence. They’re domestic terrorists.
When they get into power they will (as they have in the past regarding “ecoterrorists”, etc.) call every last person they disagree with a terrorist – that’s what they do. They lie. We’re not lying about this.
hsh – By golly, it is. I’ve never used that linkage, but will from now on. Thanks!
RECENT COMMENTS is invaluable.
one thing i find myself wishing for now and then is a way to get to the last comment in a post that has fallen off the RECENT COMMENTS list.
say i wanted to see how a recent mutli-page post had ended but there were no recent comments to jump to, i’d have to page through all the pages one at a time – and sometimes that’s a LOT of pages.
not a big deal. just something i notice
one thing i find myself wishing for now and then is a way to get to the last comment in a post that has fallen off the RECENT COMMENTS list.
That is the limitation, perhaps even the failure mode, of RECENT COMMENTS.
“ The idea that calling this right-wing attempt at civil war terrorism is going to have anything to do with what the right-wing does when they’re in power is delusional.”
With the extremists I think that’s true, but Trump support is an affliction with varying levels of severity. We will see in coming days and weeks how different Trump supporters react to the riot. I have seen some back away from Trump after Wednesday.
But anyway, I wasn’t thinking so much of them, but more about giving the US government yet more excuses to use the word “ terrorism”. I think the word should be restricted to deliberate acts of murder for political purposes.
Incidentally, the definition Russell cited describes a fairly large fraction of US foreign policy, which often uses coercion and intimidation against civilians for political purposes.
Incidentally, the definition Russell cited describes a fairly large fraction of US foreign policy, which often uses coercion and intimidation against civilians for political purposes.
Interesting, but turning an action that occurred in our nation’s actual Capitol building by (mostly, we assume) American citizens into a foreign policy discussion really muddies the waters. We’re talking here about what we do to each other in our own country, with our own government, under our own agreed-upon rules, in a social contract that we’re immediately engaged in.
Foreign policy is worth discussing, and is frequently discussed. It’s not what we’re talking about here. Or if it is, count me out.
Well isn’t this fun:
Yup, they can be charged under one of Trump’s executive orders.
I think the definition is too broad and it encourages a “ war against terror” mindset which is in itself murderously and self righteously toxic.
A fair point.
I don’t think we should tolerate people using violence and threats of violence to overthrow the peaceful transfer of power.
Or, for that matter, to intimidate and threaten folks who simply disagree with them. Like the folks who open carry AR-15’s to public discussions of matters of public policy.
I consider the actions of the folks who invaded the Capitol to be terrorism, but then again I consider people who, for instance, wear their AR-15 to public discussions of health care policy to be terrorists. So I’m probably not in the mainstream. And all of that said, I don’t much care what anybody else calls it.
I recognize and agree that the label ‘terrorism’ has been used for all kinds of expedient and pernicious ends, and I recognize and agree that there are lots of folks who would be quite happy to apply it to things like the BLM protests.
So I’m fine with not calling them terrorists if that suits. Even though they do, in fact, meet the US Code definition of terrorist, as far as I can tell.
This is what I’m not fine with:
I am not fine with loudmouth ignorant @ssholes threatening people with violence and mayhem if they don’t get their way in matters of public policy and public civic life. I’m not fine with listening to opportunistic (R) bastards, from the POTUS on down, fanning the flames of division and violence.
If these people want a freaking war, then they’ll get a war. And they will by god lose, if for no other reason than there will be no country left that’s worth having when all is said and done should it come to that.
The folks who invaded the Capitol brought pipe bombs, also molotov cocktails, also zip ties used for binding and restraining people, and also lots of plain old firearms. The cop who died was killed by having his head bashed with a fire extinguisher. Other cops were beaten with metal pipes and were repeatedly tased.
The Capitol police were utterly overwhelmed, and if the DC cops hadn’t responded with reinforcements the Capitol would be utterly trashed today.
Why? Because their favored candidate for POTUS failed to win. There was an election – a fair and legal election – and their guy lost.
So they figured they’d burn the process down, rather than let it play out.
This is a big country and a lot of different kinds of people live in it. That’s a good thing, actually. But it cannot and will not survive if people respond to not getting their way with riots mayhem and murder.
This crap undermines everything that makes it even remotely possible for all of us to live together and function as a society. It cannot be tolerated.
The folks who invaded the Capitol brought pipe bombs, also molotov cocktails, also zip ties used for binding and restraining people, and also lots of plain old firearms.
No real question that this was premeditated. At least, *I* don’t routinely walk around carrying pipe bombs.
the laws they broke.
I’m fine with prosecuting these people for whatever laws they broke. Not fine with most war on terror rhetoric. But enough said on that.
I haven’t checked all the posts or links, but here is one the the rioters with her friends. Look at the pictures. “ Privilege” is certainly an apt word for this person. Not many people fly on private jets to their planned riots.
https://nypost.com/2021/01/08/texas-woman-flew-on-private-jet-to-washington-d-c-to-storm-the-capitol/
“ Interesting, but turning an action that occurred in our nation’s actual Capitol building by (mostly, we assume) American citizens into a foreign policy discussion really muddies the waters. ”
Half agree, half disagree. If people use the T word and talk about rule of law and morality and need for accountability and there’s been a lot of that everywhere the past two days, anyone in a foreign country at the receiving end of things we’ve done might want a word. People like that don’t post here.
But yeah, it doesn’t need to be pushed in this particular thread.
Why? Because their favored candidate for POTUS failed to win. There was an election – a fair and legal election – and their guy lost.
So they figured they’d burn the process down, rather than let it play out.
they believe the election was neither fair nor square, because they get all their news from outlets that lie to them for profit.
shit’s gonna stay bad until that changes.
Republicans aren’t going to learn from this. the base is churning out conspiracy theories to justify or excuse or deflect, just as fast as they can get them out. they still think it was a stolen election. and they think the whole thing isn’t quite so bad because BLM and antifa broke a bunch of shit this past summer. and antifa and BLM were probably involved in what just happened. and Trump is still the greatest.
unless the base gets over their delusions, they’re going to start electing true believers instead of people who acknowledge reality.
we’re well fucked.
in somewhat positive news, Richard Barnett (the guy in Pelosi’s office) has been arrested:
i’d like to have seen charges for sedition and insurrection and conspiracy.
I like this bit, from Trump’s executive order:
Lock him up.
i’d like to have seen charges for sedition and insurrection and conspiracy.
It’s not unknown for additional charges to get added as the police and DA accumulate additional detailed evidence to sustain them. Meanwhile, he’s in jail where he belongs.
also arrested:
Lonnie Coffman – who drove from Alabama to DC with 11 molotov cocktails and a gun in his pickup. (yes, a Trump voter)
Derek Evans – the WV state rep who recorded himself breaking in.
they believe the election was neither fair nor square, because they get all their news from outlets that lie to them for profit.
shit’s gonna stay bad until that changes.
***
unless the base gets over their delusions, they’re going to start electing true believers instead of people who acknowledge reality.
we’re well fucked.
Not perhaps cleek’s most elegant formulation, but perfectly true for all that. In view of this, and of McKinney’s recent comments, I’d like to add to the slate I nominated years ago of russell for ROTU: cleek for the official prophet of ObWi.
this bit, from Trump’s executive order
His ability to shoot himself in the foot truly is awesome.
cleek for the official prophet of ObWi
oh crap, i hope not. i’m happy being wrong about nearly all the stuff i worry about. 🙂
“ Privilege” is certainly an apt word for this person.
I agree, but not really for the private plane thing.
She appears to think that she and her buddies are entitled to overrule the will of everybody else in the country if they don’t get their way. She and her pals are “we the people”, the rest of us are, apparently, chicken liver.
If the news media doesn’t describe her in ways she finds accurate or acceptable, she’s gonna come for them next.
She’s an entitled bully. I hope she’s arrested and charged with as many charges as they can add to the list.
Maybe she’ll wake the f*** up.
The Lockean model of liberty in human society is that we all have a voice in the laws we live by, and we all agree to be bound by them.
These people don’t understand that. They believe they are entitled to violently reject anything in the public sphere that does not suit them.
They’re not. Not if they want to live in the same country as me.
Oh, alright then. But unfortunately, I still think you’re right a helluva lot of the time. I wish it were otherwise.
As for the arrests of the insurrectionists: excellent. It will be interesting to see how it proceeds.
Derek Evans – the WV state rep who recorded himself breaking in.
There may not turn out to be time to formally boot Trump out. But I think the Congress needs to get serious about cleaning up its own house. Meaning expelling those members who were complicit in this assault on democracy. Senator Hawley is an obvious candidate. But there were others who were less prominent but arguably even more culpable.
Expel them. Make their voters find someone who will take their oath of office seriously. Even if it takes several tries to get it right.
Meaning expelling those members who were complicit in this assault on democracy.
i would love to see that.
[i shouldn’t. i really shouldn’t.]
a woman was killed at the rally yesterday, trampled in the crowd.
she was carrying a Gadsden flag.
Yes. And since some of them (the intruders, not necessarily members of the house) apparently defecated on the floors, then tracked it around, perhaps DNA can be obtained (I don’t actually know if this is possible, but I like the idea of catching them). Given the shouting of “Whose house?” “Our house!”, it gives you an interesting insight into their home lives.
Yes was a response to cleek’s 03.32
That is profoundly sad. It sounds like she filled her head with paranoid BS, and ended up crushed to death.
From the first cite:
From Sarah Lewis’ lips to god’s ear.
Really, I don’t know what it’s going to take to get people’s heads out of the QAnon / OAN puke funnel. Nothing I say or do is likely to make a dent, that’s for sure.
Maybe some of you all know someone you can actually connect with enough to break through. It’s beyond me.
Perdue conceded to Ossoff an hour or so ago. That pretty much forces McConnell’s hand on seating Ossoff as soon as the vote is certified. So Schumer is in as soon as Harris is sworn in.
wrs
Yes, wrs.
(Not) Knowing how to address that is the reason I thought cleek’s “we’re well fucked” was so absolutely right. When you think about how long it takes de-programmers to get people out of cults, and how hard it is, you get an idea of at least one part of the scale of the task.
“since some since some of them (the intruders, not necessarily members of the house) apparently defecated on the floors, then tracked it around”
And they get all bent by getting called “deplorable”, when they deserve so VERY much more.
They believe they are entitled to violently reject anything in the public sphere that does not suit them.
Sometimes societies break over irreconcilable differences and the agreement to “live by the rules” is sundered. After all, look what happened when they invented Protestantism (ironic, no?). But that word “anything” is the scary part, because it portends a belief in the absolute right to arbitrary rule, and is not anything approaching democracy.
As usual, Adam Serwer nails it.
“This is a big country and a lot of different kinds of people live in it. That’s a good thing, actually. But it cannot and will not survive if people respond to not getting their way with riots mayhem and murder.
This crap undermines everything that makes it even remotely possible for all of us to live together and function as a society. It cannot be tolerated.”
I agree with every word of this.
When you think about how long it takes de-programmers to get people out of cults, and how hard it is, you get an idea of at least one part of the scale of the task.
i despair
I believe that a lot of the people attempting to reject a Democratic win are doing so not for arbitrary reasons but because they believe that democracy is only legitimate if it stays aligned with the version of natural law outlined in their own self serving version of history and morality.
https://newrepublic.com/article/154192/sneaky-politics-natural-law
Anything that violates natural law violates the basis for our moral order. The US was founded on the principles of natural law. All oaths to the constitution are actually oaths to uphold natural law and any interpretation of the constitution that does not uphold their moral view is de facto unconstitutional.
Engage infinite tautology drive. On towards eternity.
Trump and probably some other politicians can be prosecuted for incitement to riot.
It’s beginning to look like Trump stumbled up to the line and, due to no skill on his part, didn’t stumble across it.
With budgetary restraints and travel restrictions, the US has been reduced to having coups in the US…
A job at the White House has traditionally been a stepping stone to bigger things. But not this time.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/randalllane/2021/01/07/a-truth-reckoning-why-were-holding-those-who-lied-for-trump-accountable/?sh=2c508c5e5710
From the editor of Forbes:
Which is only reasonable.
And now it’s permanent.
https://blog.twitter.com/en_us/topics/company/2020/suspension.html
Better late than never.