Crystal ball time

by

by liberal japonicus

This article about the challenges that Biden will face in rebuilding in intelligence community makes me realize that the 4 years of sore orange loser baby has set up a conflict, which is rebuilding all this is going to probably be a battleground. If Biden draws too heavily on the infrastructure which was in place as Obama left the White House, which was often too complacent about problems around the world, many of the problematic aspects of US foreign policy would remain in place. But putting in people who are unfamiliar with the scope and size of that infrastructure brings its own problems. With the reports that Netannyahu meeting with MbS, beyond Bibi asking for recommendations on which bone saws to use, hints at the size of the problems coming down the road. Feel free to toss out ideas and make predictions here.

404 thoughts on “Crystal ball time”

  1. Intelligence breaks down into three main parts:
    – information gathering
    – analysis
    – covert actions
    The first two aren’t particularly policy-driven. Data is data; what it means may be hard to figure out, but shouldn’t be colored by what politicians want it to mean. The third, however, is very much policy-driven. What actions to take, and what methods are allowable are all about what policies the politicians are favoring.
    All three parts of the intelligence comunity may need rebuilding. But rebuilding the intelligence gathering area shouldn’t be particularly controversial. It will be difficult, thanks to Trump’s loose lips outing some assets. The risk that he, or someone like him, might come along again is going to make recruitment especially difficult.
    The analysis area doesn’t put people at risk, so rebuilding doesn’t have that handicap. But the experts who have been driven out are likely in new, much higher paying, jobs. Getting them back won’t be easy. And rebuilding their level of expertise without them will take quite a while. But again, not controversial, except for those who dislike finding out things which conflict with their prejudices.
    Covert operations are a whole different story. My sense is that Trump has done far less damage there. They weren’t telling him stuff he didn’t want to hear. And he favored big, splashy actions. So I expect he mostly ignored them. On the other hand, this is also where the most problematic stuff happened before Trump. So even without Trump, rebuilding is in order. But it will be important not to reject experienced folks from the first two groups, just because you favor changes in the third area.

  2. Intelligence breaks down into three main parts:
    – information gathering
    – analysis
    – covert actions
    The first two aren’t particularly policy-driven. Data is data; what it means may be hard to figure out, but shouldn’t be colored by what politicians want it to mean. The third, however, is very much policy-driven. What actions to take, and what methods are allowable are all about what policies the politicians are favoring.
    All three parts of the intelligence comunity may need rebuilding. But rebuilding the intelligence gathering area shouldn’t be particularly controversial. It will be difficult, thanks to Trump’s loose lips outing some assets. The risk that he, or someone like him, might come along again is going to make recruitment especially difficult.
    The analysis area doesn’t put people at risk, so rebuilding doesn’t have that handicap. But the experts who have been driven out are likely in new, much higher paying, jobs. Getting them back won’t be easy. And rebuilding their level of expertise without them will take quite a while. But again, not controversial, except for those who dislike finding out things which conflict with their prejudices.
    Covert operations are a whole different story. My sense is that Trump has done far less damage there. They weren’t telling him stuff he didn’t want to hear. And he favored big, splashy actions. So I expect he mostly ignored them. On the other hand, this is also where the most problematic stuff happened before Trump. So even without Trump, rebuilding is in order. But it will be important not to reject experienced folks from the first two groups, just because you favor changes in the third area.

  5. he’ll do fine. nothing and nobody is perfect. people who want to complain will find things to complain about. events outside his control will exert influence.

  6. he’ll do fine. nothing and nobody is perfect. people who want to complain will find things to complain about. events outside his control will exert influence.

  7. I agree emphatically with what lj says. The USA, and its intelligence services, need a moral compass. Torture is wrong, let’s have people in charge who believe that.

  8. I agree emphatically with what lj says. The USA, and its intelligence services, need a moral compass. Torture is wrong, let’s have people in charge who believe that.

  11. Biden has mostly surrounded himself with liberal hawks with disastrous records on human rights and stupid policy decisions. Having said that, the news isn’t all bad. To some degree you can pressure these people. They now oppose the ( criminal) war they started in Yemen. They might or might not realize that we need to pull back from our forever war. I think their future record will most likely be mixed.
    On torture, here is a piece about Haines—
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-proxy-war-over-joe-biden-adviser-avril-haines
    One thing that is striking in the news coverage is the mutual love fest among these people. They mostly sound nice to work for. Except Tom Donilon. I don’t care about that.
    Going down a list of issues
    Torture— if we aren’t going to prosecute our high ranking war criminals and of course we aren’t, because rule of law is a stupid joke, we could at least not hire apologists for the people who tortured. Or who covered it up. And maybe investigate the CIA spying on Congress when they were investigating torture back in 2015. Prosecute the guilty there. You see, I don’t think we will prosecute high ranking torturers but one could just barely imagine prosecuting the CIA when it spies on the branch of government with the right to conduct oversight over them. If you want to talk about threats to our form of government, maybe allowing the CIA to get away with this might be something to rethink.
    This won’t happen either.
    Syria— Syria is the gigantic scandal that never became one. I expect honest mainstream histories about this when all of us are dead and nobody will care. The viewpoint expressed by mainstream foreign policy types like Blinken is that we did nothing and Assad slaughtered his people. This is incorrect. We supported Syrian rebels who fought side by side with jihadists like Al Nusra ( Al Qaeda in Syria). It was not one-sided. The Alawite population lost tens of thousands of its young men fighting for Assad because they feared genocide if the rebels won. Robert Worth, an exception among nyt reporters, said that US policy makers discussed what to do in case of a catastrophic success, meaning what do we do if the rebels won and started slaughtering religious minorities. Assad is a war criminal, but the war is largely discussed in utterly childish self serving terms in most of the press and Blinken and others can get away with saying we did nothing because Americans don’t notice what we do overseas unless Americans are dying in large numbers.
    Trump imposed brutal sanctions on Syria, which I expect Biden will maintain. I don’t know this, but that brings up the next point.
    Sanctions. Sanctions are a way for the US government to attack and impoverish and kill civilians without our press caring. Quite the opposite, in fact, The NYT will write stories about whether or not the sanctions are working and will write other stories about how the malevolent government of that country is causing its people to suffer. Sanctions are meant to cause suffering. We are imposing sanctions of this type on Iran, Syria and Venezuela. Their governments stink. We are deliberately adding to the misery.
    Yemen— The Obama team started this. Trump made it even worse. After the killing of Khashoggi people started noticing just how bad Bonesaw was, except Trump. Trump was not Putin’s puppet, not if you go by policy, but he was Bonesaw and Bibi’s. He did everything they wanted except actually start a war with Iran.
    Israel— Blinken and Biden have said it is crazy to link military aid to Israel with their behavior. The peace process is a joke anyway. The 2ss is dead. I assume Palestinians know this, even if the idiot PA sees a chance to restart the game. It is their only reason for existing.
    I have been very negative, but there is something to be said for having normal people in charge as opposed to total destructive idiots like Pompeo.

  12. Biden has mostly surrounded himself with liberal hawks with disastrous records on human rights and stupid policy decisions. Having said that, the news isn’t all bad. To some degree you can pressure these people. They now oppose the ( criminal) war they started in Yemen. They might or might not realize that we need to pull back from our forever war. I think their future record will most likely be mixed.
    On torture, here is a piece about Haines—
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-proxy-war-over-joe-biden-adviser-avril-haines
    One thing that is striking in the news coverage is the mutual love fest among these people. They mostly sound nice to work for. Except Tom Donilon. I don’t care about that.
    Going down a list of issues
    Torture— if we aren’t going to prosecute our high ranking war criminals and of course we aren’t, because rule of law is a stupid joke, we could at least not hire apologists for the people who tortured. Or who covered it up. And maybe investigate the CIA spying on Congress when they were investigating torture back in 2015. Prosecute the guilty there. You see, I don’t think we will prosecute high ranking torturers but one could just barely imagine prosecuting the CIA when it spies on the branch of government with the right to conduct oversight over them. If you want to talk about threats to our form of government, maybe allowing the CIA to get away with this might be something to rethink.
    This won’t happen either.
    Syria— Syria is the gigantic scandal that never became one. I expect honest mainstream histories about this when all of us are dead and nobody will care. The viewpoint expressed by mainstream foreign policy types like Blinken is that we did nothing and Assad slaughtered his people. This is incorrect. We supported Syrian rebels who fought side by side with jihadists like Al Nusra ( Al Qaeda in Syria). It was not one-sided. The Alawite population lost tens of thousands of its young men fighting for Assad because they feared genocide if the rebels won. Robert Worth, an exception among nyt reporters, said that US policy makers discussed what to do in case of a catastrophic success, meaning what do we do if the rebels won and started slaughtering religious minorities. Assad is a war criminal, but the war is largely discussed in utterly childish self serving terms in most of the press and Blinken and others can get away with saying we did nothing because Americans don’t notice what we do overseas unless Americans are dying in large numbers.
    Trump imposed brutal sanctions on Syria, which I expect Biden will maintain. I don’t know this, but that brings up the next point.
    Sanctions. Sanctions are a way for the US government to attack and impoverish and kill civilians without our press caring. Quite the opposite, in fact, The NYT will write stories about whether or not the sanctions are working and will write other stories about how the malevolent government of that country is causing its people to suffer. Sanctions are meant to cause suffering. We are imposing sanctions of this type on Iran, Syria and Venezuela. Their governments stink. We are deliberately adding to the misery.
    Yemen— The Obama team started this. Trump made it even worse. After the killing of Khashoggi people started noticing just how bad Bonesaw was, except Trump. Trump was not Putin’s puppet, not if you go by policy, but he was Bonesaw and Bibi’s. He did everything they wanted except actually start a war with Iran.
    Israel— Blinken and Biden have said it is crazy to link military aid to Israel with their behavior. The peace process is a joke anyway. The 2ss is dead. I assume Palestinians know this, even if the idiot PA sees a chance to restart the game. It is their only reason for existing.
    I have been very negative, but there is something to be said for having normal people in charge as opposed to total destructive idiots like Pompeo.

  15. ….which was often too complacent about problems around the world, many of the problematic aspects of US foreign policy would remain in place.
    Problematic may be an understatement, but if predictions are what you are looking for, well, that’s easy! Here are mine:
    The US will continue to be the world’s pre-eminent power, working assiduously to advance its interests (make the world safe for capital). Continued friction with Russia and China is assured. Support for Israel and the feudal Saudis will remain in place.
    The national commitment to maintaining military super-superiority at incredible economic cost shall continue to not be seriously questioned.
    The dogma of “free trade” will maintain its bipartisan hold on our economic and political elites.
    We shall continue to ignore that real sacrifice on our part is required to effectively combat (on a global scale) anthropogenic climate change.
    The developing world shall continue in its perceived role as an economic and foreign policy backwater, the world’s sweatshop.
    Sign up to my newsletter for more. Good luck, Joe….and I mean it.

  16. ….which was often too complacent about problems around the world, many of the problematic aspects of US foreign policy would remain in place.
    Problematic may be an understatement, but if predictions are what you are looking for, well, that’s easy! Here are mine:
    The US will continue to be the world’s pre-eminent power, working assiduously to advance its interests (make the world safe for capital). Continued friction with Russia and China is assured. Support for Israel and the feudal Saudis will remain in place.
    The national commitment to maintaining military super-superiority at incredible economic cost shall continue to not be seriously questioned.
    The dogma of “free trade” will maintain its bipartisan hold on our economic and political elites.
    We shall continue to ignore that real sacrifice on our part is required to effectively combat (on a global scale) anthropogenic climate change.
    The developing world shall continue in its perceived role as an economic and foreign policy backwater, the world’s sweatshop.
    Sign up to my newsletter for more. Good luck, Joe….and I mean it.

  17. Come get me when Biden tells his appointees at State and Defense something other than, “We’re the world’s policeman of last resort, with tripwires at random points here and there, no matter how many carrier strike groups that takes.”

  18. Come get me when Biden tells his appointees at State and Defense something other than, “We’re the world’s policeman of last resort, with tripwires at random points here and there, no matter how many carrier strike groups that takes.”

  19. Unless Ossoff and Warnock both win their runoffs, Biden will be faced with a Senate determined to kill his Presidency before it starts.
    So if Biden is serious about his domestic agenda – and I believe he is – he is going to have to find the money somewhere.
    Shifting funds from the massively OVERfunded DoD is one way to do that. Aside from big ticket items – rejoining the Iran nuclear treaty and working on global climate change politicies – he’s likely to have to de-prioritize foreign entanglements.

  20. Unless Ossoff and Warnock both win their runoffs, Biden will be faced with a Senate determined to kill his Presidency before it starts.
    So if Biden is serious about his domestic agenda – and I believe he is – he is going to have to find the money somewhere.
    Shifting funds from the massively OVERfunded DoD is one way to do that. Aside from big ticket items – rejoining the Iran nuclear treaty and working on global climate change politicies – he’s likely to have to de-prioritize foreign entanglements.

  21. Biden has failed already?
    awesome.
    Hey, even Donald acknowledged that Biden and his team were a step up. Of course, Biden isn’t actually in office yet….

  22. Biden has failed already?
    awesome.
    Hey, even Donald acknowledged that Biden and his team were a step up. Of course, Biden isn’t actually in office yet….

  23. Shifting funds from the massively OVERfunded DoD is one way to do that.
    Except that it isn’t. At least not the way you seem to envision.
    Congress passes the budget for DOD entirely separately from the other parts of the government. (Which aren’t all done at once either.) Trump’s attempts notwithstanding, it simply isn’t,legal for the President to just move money from one budget to another.

  24. Shifting funds from the massively OVERfunded DoD is one way to do that.
    Except that it isn’t. At least not the way you seem to envision.
    Congress passes the budget for DOD entirely separately from the other parts of the government. (Which aren’t all done at once either.) Trump’s attempts notwithstanding, it simply isn’t,legal for the President to just move money from one budget to another.

  25. From what I have heard, the hard part about fixing the State Department is that too many foreign office managers have left and the junior managers left behind have no one qualified and experienced enough who can evaluate their performance in order to promote them. That’s not something that can be easily fixed unless an appeal to loyalty and duty brings some of the old hands back just to make the transition to new leadership possible.
    And bringing back the old managers to do that will bring back a lot of the old views and policies with them, which will shape who gets promoted and left in charge for the next generation.
    So whether we try to restore (which is what I expect from Biden) or we try to renovate, I think we are looking at a decade or two of far reduced capabilities.
    And this is not even taking into account the naked partisanship of congressional oversight and all the crap with which they will flood the system.
    The presidential power to fix and rebuild seems a lot smaller, slower, and more limited than the presidential power to monkey wrench the whole show.

  26. From what I have heard, the hard part about fixing the State Department is that too many foreign office managers have left and the junior managers left behind have no one qualified and experienced enough who can evaluate their performance in order to promote them. That’s not something that can be easily fixed unless an appeal to loyalty and duty brings some of the old hands back just to make the transition to new leadership possible.
    And bringing back the old managers to do that will bring back a lot of the old views and policies with them, which will shape who gets promoted and left in charge for the next generation.
    So whether we try to restore (which is what I expect from Biden) or we try to renovate, I think we are looking at a decade or two of far reduced capabilities.
    And this is not even taking into account the naked partisanship of congressional oversight and all the crap with which they will flood the system.
    The presidential power to fix and rebuild seems a lot smaller, slower, and more limited than the presidential power to monkey wrench the whole show.

  27. There are still the likes of Joe Manchin that already promise to revive the Liebermann tradition of killing any meaningful change should the two Georgia races go in the Dems’ favor.

  28. There are still the likes of Joe Manchin that already promise to revive the Liebermann tradition of killing any meaningful change should the two Georgia races go in the Dems’ favor.

  29. Trump’s attempts notwithstanding…
    His best known effort — shifting DoD construction funds to the border wall — had at least an arguable connection to the authority Congress had granted. Not a good argument, granted, but there was an attempt to check all of the boxes.

  30. Trump’s attempts notwithstanding…
    His best known effort — shifting DoD construction funds to the border wall — had at least an arguable connection to the authority Congress had granted. Not a good argument, granted, but there was an attempt to check all of the boxes.

  31. I forgot the Iraq War. Silly me, but everyone forgets Iraq. It seemed important at the time, but it clearly didn’t matter. Biden was for it, of course.
    And yeah, if some people can praise Biden for his choices, other people can point out the awful decisions some of these people have made in the past. I have read and heard mostly praise in the liberal press for these choices and yet they aren’t in office yet. I guess nobody should be saying anything.
    There is zero accountability for actions that would put people in some war crimes tribunal if they lived in the wrong place, so a bit of bitter snarking on an obscure blog seems like a tiny price to pay. Sometimes they take abuse on their Twitter accounts too.

  32. I forgot the Iraq War. Silly me, but everyone forgets Iraq. It seemed important at the time, but it clearly didn’t matter. Biden was for it, of course.
    And yeah, if some people can praise Biden for his choices, other people can point out the awful decisions some of these people have made in the past. I have read and heard mostly praise in the liberal press for these choices and yet they aren’t in office yet. I guess nobody should be saying anything.
    There is zero accountability for actions that would put people in some war crimes tribunal if they lived in the wrong place, so a bit of bitter snarking on an obscure blog seems like a tiny price to pay. Sometimes they take abuse on their Twitter accounts too.

  33. Donald, I wonder if you could tell me something. I’m not trying to be combative; I’m honestly curious.
    Has there ever, i.e. since Washington, been a US administration which you could approve of? For that matter, has there ever been a country anywhere, ever, which has been run the way you think it should have been?
    If not (which is the way I’d bet, but heaven knows I’ve been wrong lots of times), which US administration came closest to being acceptable?

  34. Donald, I wonder if you could tell me something. I’m not trying to be combative; I’m honestly curious.
    Has there ever, i.e. since Washington, been a US administration which you could approve of? For that matter, has there ever been a country anywhere, ever, which has been run the way you think it should have been?
    If not (which is the way I’d bet, but heaven knows I’ve been wrong lots of times), which US administration came closest to being acceptable?

  43. However good things are there is always room for improvement.
    note that Biden hasn’t spent a millisecond in office yet.

  44. However good things are there is always room for improvement.
    note that Biden hasn’t spent a millisecond in office yet.

  47. However good things are there is always room for improvement. That means there is room for criticism.
    Certainly true. Although I would have phrased it as “there is room for constructive criticism.”
    Which, in the case of appointments, would mean putting up some names of people who
    a) do not have whatever negative quality is being objected to, of course.
    b) do have equivalent levels of experience. Or at least sufficient expertise and management experience to make them viable in the position.
    c) have some reasonable chance of getting approved by the Senate. Not matter how low your opinion of the members of the Senate (and mine is not particularly high), they still have veto power over appointments for hundreds of positions. Including all the cabinet members and agency heads.
    None of us (that I know of) have been sufficiently involved that we can come up with suggestions for every position. But at least some plausible suggestions should be possible.

  48. However good things are there is always room for improvement. That means there is room for criticism.
    Certainly true. Although I would have phrased it as “there is room for constructive criticism.”
    Which, in the case of appointments, would mean putting up some names of people who
    a) do not have whatever negative quality is being objected to, of course.
    b) do have equivalent levels of experience. Or at least sufficient expertise and management experience to make them viable in the position.
    c) have some reasonable chance of getting approved by the Senate. Not matter how low your opinion of the members of the Senate (and mine is not particularly high), they still have veto power over appointments for hundreds of positions. Including all the cabinet members and agency heads.
    None of us (that I know of) have been sufficiently involved that we can come up with suggestions for every position. But at least some plausible suggestions should be possible.

  51. note that Biden hasn’t spent a millisecond in office yet.
    This is undoubtedly true, and I for one am more than willing to see how it actually turns out. I mean, yes, the last four years has been a fucking nightmare.
    However, it strikes me you are basically arguing that (Biden’s) history is irrelevant, holds no predictive value, and taking it into account should simply be preemptively scorned…much like going to the track and turning your nose up in disgust at the mere thought of so much as even opening the Racing Form.
    As they say, I respectfully dissent.

  52. note that Biden hasn’t spent a millisecond in office yet.
    This is undoubtedly true, and I for one am more than willing to see how it actually turns out. I mean, yes, the last four years has been a fucking nightmare.
    However, it strikes me you are basically arguing that (Biden’s) history is irrelevant, holds no predictive value, and taking it into account should simply be preemptively scorned…much like going to the track and turning your nose up in disgust at the mere thought of so much as even opening the Racing Form.
    As they say, I respectfully dissent.

  53. There is zero accountability for actions that would put people in some war crimes tribunal if they lived in the wrong place, so a bit of bitter snarking on an obscure blog seems like a tiny price to pay.
    Yes. Dispute what people write head-on all you like, but the meta “stop saying those things” line is pretty lame considering the context of our conversations here. Donald’s not going to derail Biden’s presidency before it starts by writing foreign-policy criticisms on Obsidian Wings.

  54. There is zero accountability for actions that would put people in some war crimes tribunal if they lived in the wrong place, so a bit of bitter snarking on an obscure blog seems like a tiny price to pay.
    Yes. Dispute what people write head-on all you like, but the meta “stop saying those things” line is pretty lame considering the context of our conversations here. Donald’s not going to derail Biden’s presidency before it starts by writing foreign-policy criticisms on Obsidian Wings.

  57. Donald’s not going to derail Biden’s presidency before it starts by writing foreign-policy criticisms on Obsidian Wings.
    Quite true. (And true of us all.) But I do him what I see as the courtesy of assuming he is hoping to persuade some of us. Rather than just blowing off steam.
    Not to say there’s never a good reason to blow off steam. I’m sure I’ve done so here on occasion. But still, having relieved the pressure I feel some obligation to defend my position on the substance.

  58. Donald’s not going to derail Biden’s presidency before it starts by writing foreign-policy criticisms on Obsidian Wings.
    Quite true. (And true of us all.) But I do him what I see as the courtesy of assuming he is hoping to persuade some of us. Rather than just blowing off steam.
    Not to say there’s never a good reason to blow off steam. I’m sure I’ve done so here on occasion. But still, having relieved the pressure I feel some obligation to defend my position on the substance.

  59. Donald’s not going to derail Biden’s presidency before it starts by writing foreign-policy criticisms on Obsidian Wings.
    Nothing matters. With that, I am beginning to agree.

  60. Donald’s not going to derail Biden’s presidency before it starts by writing foreign-policy criticisms on Obsidian Wings.
    Nothing matters. With that, I am beginning to agree.

  61. I mean, yes, the last four years has been a fucking nightmare.
    Due more to laziness, incompetency, self-absorption than any inclination to doing the right thing, Trump has avoided some of the missteps of his predecessors.
    Unlike his predecessors, he hasn’t started any new military conflicts.
    Trump has taken a lot of verbal and tweet shots at various media outlets and individual journalists. But it was Obama who prosecuted more whistleblowers, journalists, and their sources than all of his predecessors combined.

  62. I mean, yes, the last four years has been a fucking nightmare.
    Due more to laziness, incompetency, self-absorption than any inclination to doing the right thing, Trump has avoided some of the missteps of his predecessors.
    Unlike his predecessors, he hasn’t started any new military conflicts.
    Trump has taken a lot of verbal and tweet shots at various media outlets and individual journalists. But it was Obama who prosecuted more whistleblowers, journalists, and their sources than all of his predecessors combined.

  63. Unlike his predecessors, he hasn’t started any new military conflicts.Unlike his predecessors, he hasn’t started any new military conflicts.
    Not for lack of trying. C.f. Iran. But, as you say, incompetence foiled him.

  64. Unlike his predecessors, he hasn’t started any new military conflicts.Unlike his predecessors, he hasn’t started any new military conflicts.
    Not for lack of trying. C.f. Iran. But, as you say, incompetence foiled him.

  65. However, it strikes me you are basically arguing that (Biden’s) history is irrelevant, holds no predictive value, and taking it into account should simply be preemptively scorned…much like going to the track and turning your nose up in disgust at the mere thought of so much as even opening the Racing Form.
    i’m saying, again (3rd time now): Biden hasn’t even started.
    but here y’all are, making lists of how he’s going to fail you.
    can’t wait to see if he actually will disappoint you? nope. gotta get pre-disappointed.
    what’s the opposite of hippie-punching? hippies punching?

  66. However, it strikes me you are basically arguing that (Biden’s) history is irrelevant, holds no predictive value, and taking it into account should simply be preemptively scorned…much like going to the track and turning your nose up in disgust at the mere thought of so much as even opening the Racing Form.
    i’m saying, again (3rd time now): Biden hasn’t even started.
    but here y’all are, making lists of how he’s going to fail you.
    can’t wait to see if he actually will disappoint you? nope. gotta get pre-disappointed.
    what’s the opposite of hippie-punching? hippies punching?

  67. Donald’s not going to derail Biden’s presidency before it starts by writing foreign-policy criticisms on Obsidian Wings.
    no, he isn’t.
    but neither am i going to derail the The left by pointing out that they’re upset about hypothetical situations that they have constructed for themselves.

  68. Donald’s not going to derail Biden’s presidency before it starts by writing foreign-policy criticisms on Obsidian Wings.
    no, he isn’t.
    but neither am i going to derail the The left by pointing out that they’re upset about hypothetical situations that they have constructed for themselves.

  69. if Biden fucks up, he fucks up. then we can all boo and hoo. but he isn’t even on the job yet.
    on second thought. maybe it’s break time.

  70. if Biden fucks up, he fucks up. then we can all boo and hoo. but he isn’t even on the job yet.
    on second thought. maybe it’s break time.

  71. if Biden fucks up, he fucks up. then we can all boo and hoo.
    And, I venture to predict, carry on about how various of the other potential candidates for the Democratic nomination wouldn’t have done so. Ignoring the fact that part of the reason they wouldn’t have done so is that they would most likely have lost to Trump. (I confess that the number of votes Trump racked up, and against someone who was no way a far lefty, was a seriously nasty shock.)

  72. if Biden fucks up, he fucks up. then we can all boo and hoo.
    And, I venture to predict, carry on about how various of the other potential candidates for the Democratic nomination wouldn’t have done so. Ignoring the fact that part of the reason they wouldn’t have done so is that they would most likely have lost to Trump. (I confess that the number of votes Trump racked up, and against someone who was no way a far lefty, was a seriously nasty shock.)

  73. Nothing matters. With that, I am beginning to agree.
    Which is obviously my point if you ignore the part about disputing people’s arguments head-on rather that telling them they should just shut the f**k up because of some imaginary powers they have to influence events.
    We really don’t have to make political calculations about our rhetoric here. If you think someone’s wrong on substance, just explain why.

  74. Nothing matters. With that, I am beginning to agree.
    Which is obviously my point if you ignore the part about disputing people’s arguments head-on rather that telling them they should just shut the f**k up because of some imaginary powers they have to influence events.
    We really don’t have to make political calculations about our rhetoric here. If you think someone’s wrong on substance, just explain why.

  75. “ Has there ever, i.e. since Washington, been a US administration which you could approve of? ”
    FDR. The Japanese internment thing was bad, but overall, FDR was a truly great President.
    Go further back in time and comparisons start to get meaningless. The past is a different country.
    But I don’t find the question very interesting. Focus on issues and not on which person or party you love. One thing that was funny when people said Bernie fans were a cult. An awful lot of Bernie fans would be first in line to scream at him on issues if he won, became President and screwed up on something— probably if he gave in to the Blob on some foreign policy decIsion.
    We have had a crappy foreign policy under both parties. Biden supported some of those decisions and has chosen people with very mixed records. It doesn’t matter what cleek and I whine about here ( on opposite sides) , but I am glad real life whiners like Senator Wyden made it clear that some torture apologist like Morell is beyond the pale. And if some people praise his choices, others are free to point out the kinds of bad choices his choices have made.
    All that said, I expect I will like some things Biden does and not like others. Not crazy about the foreign policy choices. Kerry as climate czar might be good. I am interested to see what he does on that subject. Yellen might be good. Trump and Bibi have just made it hard to bring back the Iranian nuclear deal, so I sympathize with Biden there.

  76. “ Has there ever, i.e. since Washington, been a US administration which you could approve of? ”
    FDR. The Japanese internment thing was bad, but overall, FDR was a truly great President.
    Go further back in time and comparisons start to get meaningless. The past is a different country.
    But I don’t find the question very interesting. Focus on issues and not on which person or party you love. One thing that was funny when people said Bernie fans were a cult. An awful lot of Bernie fans would be first in line to scream at him on issues if he won, became President and screwed up on something— probably if he gave in to the Blob on some foreign policy decIsion.
    We have had a crappy foreign policy under both parties. Biden supported some of those decisions and has chosen people with very mixed records. It doesn’t matter what cleek and I whine about here ( on opposite sides) , but I am glad real life whiners like Senator Wyden made it clear that some torture apologist like Morell is beyond the pale. And if some people praise his choices, others are free to point out the kinds of bad choices his choices have made.
    All that said, I expect I will like some things Biden does and not like others. Not crazy about the foreign policy choices. Kerry as climate czar might be good. I am interested to see what he does on that subject. Yellen might be good. Trump and Bibi have just made it hard to bring back the Iranian nuclear deal, so I sympathize with Biden there.

  77. I have a far left friend who says Trump hasn’t started any new wars, but as people here point out, it’s been partly dumb luck. He might yet start one with Iran. He could have started one with NK. He killed thousands of civilians ( possibly in the low tens of thousands) with his bombing in Iraq and Syria, according to the Airwars site. There was a bipartisan coalition forming to stop the war in Yemen. Trump kept it going.
    But I sort of know what my friend means. Trump wasn’t the exact type of raving lunatic Bolton wanted him to be.

  78. I have a far left friend who says Trump hasn’t started any new wars, but as people here point out, it’s been partly dumb luck. He might yet start one with Iran. He could have started one with NK. He killed thousands of civilians ( possibly in the low tens of thousands) with his bombing in Iraq and Syria, according to the Airwars site. There was a bipartisan coalition forming to stop the war in Yemen. Trump kept it going.
    But I sort of know what my friend means. Trump wasn’t the exact type of raving lunatic Bolton wanted him to be.

  79. Thank you, Donald.
    I personally am super twitchy about the Japanese internment. But then, I have relatives who were involved, and the personal touch makes a difference, in my experience.

  80. Thank you, Donald.
    I personally am super twitchy about the Japanese internment. But then, I have relatives who were involved, and the personal touch makes a difference, in my experience.

  81. rather that telling them they should just shut the f**k up because of some imaginary powers they have to influence events
    Could you offer up a quote?
    We really don’t have to make political calculations about our rhetoric here. If you think someone’s wrong on substance, just explain why.
    We don’t have to, but maybe we can? Or not – according to you – good to know your rules!
    I firmly believe that our situation is somewhat Manichaean. (I’m all for shades of gray and chin-stroking generally – just not in politics right now.) We have two choices: Democracy or fascism. Democracy deserves our support, at least to the extent that the freaking President-elect can take office and try to deal with the sabotage that’s occurred. Does this make me a DNC hack hippie puncher? I guess so, and I’m fine with it.

  82. rather that telling them they should just shut the f**k up because of some imaginary powers they have to influence events
    Could you offer up a quote?
    We really don’t have to make political calculations about our rhetoric here. If you think someone’s wrong on substance, just explain why.
    We don’t have to, but maybe we can? Or not – according to you – good to know your rules!
    I firmly believe that our situation is somewhat Manichaean. (I’m all for shades of gray and chin-stroking generally – just not in politics right now.) We have two choices: Democracy or fascism. Democracy deserves our support, at least to the extent that the freaking President-elect can take office and try to deal with the sabotage that’s occurred. Does this make me a DNC hack hippie puncher? I guess so, and I’m fine with it.

  85. “ Democracy or fascism. ”
    Torture is something fascists do. Morell is an apologist for torture, so if there is talk of picking him then the fight against fascism dictates that we oppose this possible choice.
    Truthfully, that is false. Democratic governments have always committed war crimes. They are more constrained, precisely because people are free to say things like “ Don’t appoint people who are either apologists for torture or who covered up for torturers”.

  86. “ Democracy or fascism. ”
    Torture is something fascists do. Morell is an apologist for torture, so if there is talk of picking him then the fight against fascism dictates that we oppose this possible choice.
    Truthfully, that is false. Democratic governments have always committed war crimes. They are more constrained, precisely because people are free to say things like “ Don’t appoint people who are either apologists for torture or who covered up for torturers”.

  87. Donald: He killed thousands of civilians ( possibly in the low tens of thousands) with his bombing in Iraq and Syria, according to the Airwars site.
    Yes, thanks. Not to mention his response to Covid.
    I also agree with your 4:44.

  88. Donald: He killed thousands of civilians ( possibly in the low tens of thousands) with his bombing in Iraq and Syria, according to the Airwars site.
    Yes, thanks. Not to mention his response to Covid.
    I also agree with your 4:44.

  89. Could you offer up a quote?
    No. I’m expressing what seems to be the obvious subtext of some responses to Donald’s comments, and then of mine. Feel free to clarify!
    We don’t have to, but maybe we can? Or not – according to you – good to know your rules!
    I don’t get to make rules any more than you do, so rather than complaining about my (non) rule-making in response to anyone else’s (non) rule-making, make a better argument than “nothing matters.” (Maybe you have a quote for that one, eh?)
    Also, too, this post is asking for predictions, but Donald makes predictions people don’t like because he has the nerve to make them after being asked.

  90. Could you offer up a quote?
    No. I’m expressing what seems to be the obvious subtext of some responses to Donald’s comments, and then of mine. Feel free to clarify!
    We don’t have to, but maybe we can? Or not – according to you – good to know your rules!
    I don’t get to make rules any more than you do, so rather than complaining about my (non) rule-making in response to anyone else’s (non) rule-making, make a better argument than “nothing matters.” (Maybe you have a quote for that one, eh?)
    Also, too, this post is asking for predictions, but Donald makes predictions people don’t like because he has the nerve to make them after being asked.

  91. Don’t think Carter started any wars, not that everything was perfect.
    Really, there’s been very, very, few Presidents that haven’t had any wars during their term.

  92. Don’t think Carter started any wars, not that everything was perfect.
    Really, there’s been very, very, few Presidents that haven’t had any wars during their term.

  93. Don’t think Carter started any wars, not that everything was perfect.
    IMO, Carter is much underrated. He got the Camp David Accords signed, and also appointed Volcker to chair the Fed, knowing that would likely lead to his defeat in 1980.

  94. Don’t think Carter started any wars, not that everything was perfect.
    IMO, Carter is much underrated. He got the Camp David Accords signed, and also appointed Volcker to chair the Fed, knowing that would likely lead to his defeat in 1980.

  95. Well, the post was asking for predictions, but I was also curious how people proposed that Biden was going to deal with the problem which nous helpfully laid out which I repost here
    the hard part about fixing the State Department is that too many foreign office managers have left and the junior managers left behind have no one qualified and experienced enough who can evaluate their performance in order to promote them. That’s not something that can be easily fixed unless an appeal to loyalty and duty brings some of the old hands back just to make the transition to new leadership possible.
    And bringing back the old managers to do that will bring back a lot of the old views and policies with them, which will shape who gets promoted and left in charge for the next generation.
    So whether we try to restore (which is what I expect from Biden) or we try to renovate, I think we are looking at a decade or two of far reduced capabilities.
    I was kind of hoping for links to what might be happening now rather than being reminded of Biden’s Iraq vote, but if the prediction is “nothing is going to change, the system is hopelessly corrupt”, I guess that is a prediction of sorts.
    What’s interesting to me is that imho despite DaiperDon trying to put his fingers into everything, he’s created a situation where the State Department is in a lot worse shape than Defense. If the military side just decides to hunker down, they will come out of this with their notions relatively unchallenged.
    Apologies for yet another LGM cite, though it avoids the WP paywall but it is clear that Biden is going to have his hands full just staffing, so actual change might be tough.

  96. Well, the post was asking for predictions, but I was also curious how people proposed that Biden was going to deal with the problem which nous helpfully laid out which I repost here
    the hard part about fixing the State Department is that too many foreign office managers have left and the junior managers left behind have no one qualified and experienced enough who can evaluate their performance in order to promote them. That’s not something that can be easily fixed unless an appeal to loyalty and duty brings some of the old hands back just to make the transition to new leadership possible.
    And bringing back the old managers to do that will bring back a lot of the old views and policies with them, which will shape who gets promoted and left in charge for the next generation.
    So whether we try to restore (which is what I expect from Biden) or we try to renovate, I think we are looking at a decade or two of far reduced capabilities.
    I was kind of hoping for links to what might be happening now rather than being reminded of Biden’s Iraq vote, but if the prediction is “nothing is going to change, the system is hopelessly corrupt”, I guess that is a prediction of sorts.
    What’s interesting to me is that imho despite DaiperDon trying to put his fingers into everything, he’s created a situation where the State Department is in a lot worse shape than Defense. If the military side just decides to hunker down, they will come out of this with their notions relatively unchallenged.
    Apologies for yet another LGM cite, though it avoids the WP paywall but it is clear that Biden is going to have his hands full just staffing, so actual change might be tough.

  97. Really, there’s been very, very, few Presidents that haven’t had any wars during their term.
    William Henry Harrison and Jerry Ford come to mind.

  98. Really, there’s been very, very, few Presidents that haven’t had any wars during their term.
    William Henry Harrison and Jerry Ford come to mind.

  99. The knock on Carter on the left has been his dealing with Indonesia, though this article goes thru all of the problems, as the url might suggest.
    https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/08/18/jimmy-carters-blood-drenched-legacy/
    In a sense, Carter was dealing with a similar situation as Biden, elected in the aftermath of a corrupt Republican president, faced with a left that had lots of opposing ideas about what was needed which culminated in John Anderson running. So one of my crystal balls says that the left will be unable to unite and a candidate from the center right who mouths platitudes will get elected in 2024. Hey, you want pessismism, I have it by the truckload!
    It occurs to me that concentrating on voting, which would include dealing with disenfranchisement, gerrymandering, electoral college might be the thing to do. It is something that (one would hope) everyone who supported Biden could agree on and it would provide a lever for changing those other problems.

  100. The knock on Carter on the left has been his dealing with Indonesia, though this article goes thru all of the problems, as the url might suggest.
    https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/08/18/jimmy-carters-blood-drenched-legacy/
    In a sense, Carter was dealing with a similar situation as Biden, elected in the aftermath of a corrupt Republican president, faced with a left that had lots of opposing ideas about what was needed which culminated in John Anderson running. So one of my crystal balls says that the left will be unable to unite and a candidate from the center right who mouths platitudes will get elected in 2024. Hey, you want pessismism, I have it by the truckload!
    It occurs to me that concentrating on voting, which would include dealing with disenfranchisement, gerrymandering, electoral college might be the thing to do. It is something that (one would hope) everyone who supported Biden could agree on and it would provide a lever for changing those other problems.

  101. one of my crystal balls says that the left will be unable to unite and a candidate from the center right who mouths platitudes will get elected in 2024.
    I’m a wild optimist in such matters. But I just really don’t see the GOP nominating a center-right candidate in 2024. (And who would that possibly be???) Certainly not one who mouths platitudes.
    I think it’s going to take a couple more big losses for them to figure out that they need to take a different direction. And the left deciding to run an anti-Biden (or, at it may be, and anti-Harris) candidate will pretty much guarantee (again) that they win without reforming.

  102. one of my crystal balls says that the left will be unable to unite and a candidate from the center right who mouths platitudes will get elected in 2024.
    I’m a wild optimist in such matters. But I just really don’t see the GOP nominating a center-right candidate in 2024. (And who would that possibly be???) Certainly not one who mouths platitudes.
    I think it’s going to take a couple more big losses for them to figure out that they need to take a different direction. And the left deciding to run an anti-Biden (or, at it may be, and anti-Harris) candidate will pretty much guarantee (again) that they win without reforming.

  107. I think it’s going to take a couple more big losses for them to figure out that they need to take a different direction. And the left deciding to run an anti-Biden (or, at it may be, and anti-Harris) candidate will pretty much guarantee (again) that they win without reforming.
    Given what we have seen of the GOP (leadership and base) and their [take your pick] embrace of or inability to stand up to Tyrannosaurus Rump, I’d say that they have all dug in and are now just waiting faithfully for whatever apocalyptic eventuality they believe in to arrive and vindicate them.
    Adaptation is for the faithless.

  108. I think it’s going to take a couple more big losses for them to figure out that they need to take a different direction. And the left deciding to run an anti-Biden (or, at it may be, and anti-Harris) candidate will pretty much guarantee (again) that they win without reforming.
    Given what we have seen of the GOP (leadership and base) and their [take your pick] embrace of or inability to stand up to Tyrannosaurus Rump, I’d say that they have all dug in and are now just waiting faithfully for whatever apocalyptic eventuality they believe in to arrive and vindicate them.
    Adaptation is for the faithless.

  109. It occurs to me that concentrating on voting, which would include dealing with disenfranchisement, gerrymandering, electoral college might be the thing to do. It is something that (one would hope) everyone who supported Biden could agree on and it would provide a lever for changing those other problems.
    Absolutely right.

  110. It occurs to me that concentrating on voting, which would include dealing with disenfranchisement, gerrymandering, electoral college might be the thing to do. It is something that (one would hope) everyone who supported Biden could agree on and it would provide a lever for changing those other problems.
    Absolutely right.

  111. So one of my crystal balls says that the left will be unable to unite
    Unable or unwilling?
    It occurs to me that concentrating on voting, which would include dealing with disenfranchisement, gerrymandering, electoral college might be the thing to do.
    Sure. But then they have to inspire people to vote for somebody. I’ll vote for any D over R (unless there is some weird happening like a Trump D). Eventually, Donald’s war criminal suspects will all be dead, so maybe that issue will go away, but there will always be purity tests of one kind or another.
    Anyway, I’ll stick with being a Dem hack. It’s the safest way to not get a Republican.

  112. So one of my crystal balls says that the left will be unable to unite
    Unable or unwilling?
    It occurs to me that concentrating on voting, which would include dealing with disenfranchisement, gerrymandering, electoral college might be the thing to do.
    Sure. But then they have to inspire people to vote for somebody. I’ll vote for any D over R (unless there is some weird happening like a Trump D). Eventually, Donald’s war criminal suspects will all be dead, so maybe that issue will go away, but there will always be purity tests of one kind or another.
    Anyway, I’ll stick with being a Dem hack. It’s the safest way to not get a Republican.

  113. It occurs to me that concentrating on voting, which would include dealing with disenfranchisement, gerrymandering, electoral college might be the thing to do. It is something that (one would hope) everyone who supported Biden could agree on and it would provide a lever for changing those other problems.
    I think voting should be the absolute priority issue for Democrats.

  114. It occurs to me that concentrating on voting, which would include dealing with disenfranchisement, gerrymandering, electoral college might be the thing to do. It is something that (one would hope) everyone who supported Biden could agree on and it would provide a lever for changing those other problems.
    I think voting should be the absolute priority issue for Democrats.

  115. I think voting should be the absolute priority issue for Democrats.
    All Dems are on board with this, but should it be the absolute priority issue? I do not believe that to be the case.
    People want stuff…stand up and bellow that we shall will bend every effort to make it so.
    Or as the Dem hack stated above, “Sure. But then they have to inspire people to vote for somebody.”
    This is true.

  116. I think voting should be the absolute priority issue for Democrats.
    All Dems are on board with this, but should it be the absolute priority issue? I do not believe that to be the case.
    People want stuff…stand up and bellow that we shall will bend every effort to make it so.
    Or as the Dem hack stated above, “Sure. But then they have to inspire people to vote for somebody.”
    This is true.

  117. War crimes shouldn’t actually be a purity test. The idea is funny, if viewed from a distance— say, somewhere in Andromeda. It’s like saying that screening for racism is a purity test. Well, yeah. We might forgive someone who used to be one if they show growth. It actually is the same issue. Foreign lives don’t matter.
    Westerners are really strange. It’s probably just people who are strange.
    And btw, all of us are wild eyed irresponsible insane crackpots or worse from other points of view. At some sites I would be the privileged sellout who voted for Biden. That “ privilege” accusation can be used by lots of people. It is useful to step far outside one’s own viewpoint in various directions and think about how they would view you. I used to get into way too many arguments online before realizing it accomplished nothing except raising my blood pressure. Mostly now I am just an observer.
    But imagine yourself going to some website where there are people directly involved vis family in some of our conflicts and talking about purity issues. For that matter, I wouldn’t go to some site that was active in protesting police brutality and tell them that I think “ defund the police” was not a useful slogan. I agree with LJ on that much. That criticism should come from someone else.

  118. War crimes shouldn’t actually be a purity test. The idea is funny, if viewed from a distance— say, somewhere in Andromeda. It’s like saying that screening for racism is a purity test. Well, yeah. We might forgive someone who used to be one if they show growth. It actually is the same issue. Foreign lives don’t matter.
    Westerners are really strange. It’s probably just people who are strange.
    And btw, all of us are wild eyed irresponsible insane crackpots or worse from other points of view. At some sites I would be the privileged sellout who voted for Biden. That “ privilege” accusation can be used by lots of people. It is useful to step far outside one’s own viewpoint in various directions and think about how they would view you. I used to get into way too many arguments online before realizing it accomplished nothing except raising my blood pressure. Mostly now I am just an observer.
    But imagine yourself going to some website where there are people directly involved vis family in some of our conflicts and talking about purity issues. For that matter, I wouldn’t go to some site that was active in protesting police brutality and tell them that I think “ defund the police” was not a useful slogan. I agree with LJ on that much. That criticism should come from someone else.

  119. My wife, whose interest in politics is minimal, sends me this:

    Jan. 21st, 2021 – An old man is sitting on a bench in Lafayette Park, across from the Marine guard in his kiosk at the front White House entrance. Finally, he walks up to the Marine guard’s kiosk and says, “I would like to speak with President Trump, please.” The Marine replies, “Sir, Donald Trump is no longer the president and he no longer resides at this address.” “I see. Well, thank you sir”, the old man says and walks off.
    The next day the old man sits at the same park bench, then walks up again to the guard and says, “I would like to speak with President Trump, please.” Again the Marine replies, “Sir, Donald Trump is no longer the president and he no longer resides at this address.” “I see. Well, thank you sir”, the old man says and once more walks off.
    The day after that the old man once again walks up to the Marine and say, “I would like to speak with President Trump, please.” Losing a bit of his patience, the guard says, “Sir, this is the third time you’ve asked me, and for the third time, Donald Trump is no longer the president and he no longer resides at this address! I’ve been very clear about that.”
    “I know”, the old man replies. “It just feels so good to hear it.” The Marine snaps to attention and says, “See you tomorrow, sir.”

    God speed the day.

  120. My wife, whose interest in politics is minimal, sends me this:

    Jan. 21st, 2021 – An old man is sitting on a bench in Lafayette Park, across from the Marine guard in his kiosk at the front White House entrance. Finally, he walks up to the Marine guard’s kiosk and says, “I would like to speak with President Trump, please.” The Marine replies, “Sir, Donald Trump is no longer the president and he no longer resides at this address.” “I see. Well, thank you sir”, the old man says and walks off.
    The next day the old man sits at the same park bench, then walks up again to the guard and says, “I would like to speak with President Trump, please.” Again the Marine replies, “Sir, Donald Trump is no longer the president and he no longer resides at this address.” “I see. Well, thank you sir”, the old man says and once more walks off.
    The day after that the old man once again walks up to the Marine and say, “I would like to speak with President Trump, please.” Losing a bit of his patience, the guard says, “Sir, this is the third time you’ve asked me, and for the third time, Donald Trump is no longer the president and he no longer resides at this address! I’ve been very clear about that.”
    “I know”, the old man replies. “It just feels so good to hear it.” The Marine snaps to attention and says, “See you tomorrow, sir.”

    God speed the day.

  123. should it be the absolute priority issue? I do not believe that to be the case.
    I think it should be at the top of the list. Had the polls been accurate, and Democrats won a majority in the Senate, I believe a new Voting Rights Act should have been the first piece of legislation to be be introduced.
    Without it, any gains will be short-lived, subject to being lost as soon as the EC installs another Republican, or the gerrymandered House produces a Republican majority.
    Yes. I’m saying that I think a truly democratic voting system will lead to Democratic gains, and will also moderate the right.

  124. should it be the absolute priority issue? I do not believe that to be the case.
    I think it should be at the top of the list. Had the polls been accurate, and Democrats won a majority in the Senate, I believe a new Voting Rights Act should have been the first piece of legislation to be be introduced.
    Without it, any gains will be short-lived, subject to being lost as soon as the EC installs another Republican, or the gerrymandered House produces a Republican majority.
    Yes. I’m saying that I think a truly democratic voting system will lead to Democratic gains, and will also moderate the right.

  125. It occurs to me that concentrating on voting, which would include dealing with disenfranchisement, gerrymandering, electoral college might be the thing to do. It is something that (one would hope) everyone who supported Biden could agree on and it would provide a lever for changing those other problems..
    A new voting rights act is going to have a very hard time getting through the Senate, particularly if is addresses gerrymandering.
    It should certainly be attempted, though.

  126. It occurs to me that concentrating on voting, which would include dealing with disenfranchisement, gerrymandering, electoral college might be the thing to do. It is something that (one would hope) everyone who supported Biden could agree on and it would provide a lever for changing those other problems..
    A new voting rights act is going to have a very hard time getting through the Senate, particularly if is addresses gerrymandering.
    It should certainly be attempted, though.

  127. I’m saying that I think a truly democratic voting system will lead to Democratic gains, and will also moderate the right.
    I think there’s no real doubt about either of those. Clearly the Republicans in Congress, and holding offices at the state level, believe it with every fiber of their being. That’s why they’re so hysterical at the mere thought of anything which would increase the number of voters.

  128. I’m saying that I think a truly democratic voting system will lead to Democratic gains, and will also moderate the right.
    I think there’s no real doubt about either of those. Clearly the Republicans in Congress, and holding offices at the state level, believe it with every fiber of their being. That’s why they’re so hysterical at the mere thought of anything which would increase the number of voters.

  129. Seconded. Anything which seeks to make voting more difficult, or to disenfranchise selected groups, or render the votes of certain groups meaningless (as in gerrymandering) should be made legally impossible. Regarding the EC, while its effect is clearly increasingly unfair and not what was originally intended, I leave it to wiser ObWi heads to puzzle out how this could be done, and shown not to be a purely partisan move (we already know from McKinney and Marty, but not I think wj, that it would be perceived to be so).

  130. Seconded. Anything which seeks to make voting more difficult, or to disenfranchise selected groups, or render the votes of certain groups meaningless (as in gerrymandering) should be made legally impossible. Regarding the EC, while its effect is clearly increasingly unfair and not what was originally intended, I leave it to wiser ObWi heads to puzzle out how this could be done, and shown not to be a purely partisan move (we already know from McKinney and Marty, but not I think wj, that it would be perceived to be so).

  135. It should certainly be attempted, though.
    It has. I’m fairly certain it shall be re-introduced in the next Congress.
    The EC needs to be abolished, but that would take a Constitutional Amendment.
    I’m saying that I think a truly democratic voting system will lead to Democratic gains, and will also moderate the right.
    1. Dem gains would be very likely; 2. An ethno-nationalist block that perceives its status to be ebbing is most likely not going to be “moderated” by election reforms…but I guess time shall tell.
    Democrats did not realize sweeping gains in the election of 2018 by shouting “election reform!, election reform!” Said reforms are important, but the most important? I don’t think so.

  136. It should certainly be attempted, though.
    It has. I’m fairly certain it shall be re-introduced in the next Congress.
    The EC needs to be abolished, but that would take a Constitutional Amendment.
    I’m saying that I think a truly democratic voting system will lead to Democratic gains, and will also moderate the right.
    1. Dem gains would be very likely; 2. An ethno-nationalist block that perceives its status to be ebbing is most likely not going to be “moderated” by election reforms…but I guess time shall tell.
    Democrats did not realize sweeping gains in the election of 2018 by shouting “election reform!, election reform!” Said reforms are important, but the most important? I don’t think so.

  137. The EC needs to be abolished, but that would take a Constitutional Amendment.
    And that is the real sticking point. Not only do you have to get 2/3 of the Senate (and 2/3 of the House) to agree. You then have to get 3/4 of the states to agree as well. To an amendment which will reduce the electoral clout of over half of them. No way that happens.
    Of course there is the alternative of a new Constitutional Convention. You only need 2/3 of the states to ask for one of those. You’d still need 3/4 of the states to ratify whatever amendments it came up with. But at least you’d have the possibility of horse trading to get a package deal done. Still wildly unlikely. Not to mention the risks for what might come out of it on subjects besides the Electoral College.

  138. The EC needs to be abolished, but that would take a Constitutional Amendment.
    And that is the real sticking point. Not only do you have to get 2/3 of the Senate (and 2/3 of the House) to agree. You then have to get 3/4 of the states to agree as well. To an amendment which will reduce the electoral clout of over half of them. No way that happens.
    Of course there is the alternative of a new Constitutional Convention. You only need 2/3 of the states to ask for one of those. You’d still need 3/4 of the states to ratify whatever amendments it came up with. But at least you’d have the possibility of horse trading to get a package deal done. Still wildly unlikely. Not to mention the risks for what might come out of it on subjects besides the Electoral College.

  139. It doesn’t fix the Senate problem, but the Electoral College is *mostly* fixable without a Constitutional Amendment. The number of Electors is determined by the number of representatives, so we should probably double the size of the House of Representatives, or maybe triple it. This would also have the effect of making it more difficult to hyper-gerrymander states so it sounds win-win to me.

  140. It doesn’t fix the Senate problem, but the Electoral College is *mostly* fixable without a Constitutional Amendment. The number of Electors is determined by the number of representatives, so we should probably double the size of the House of Representatives, or maybe triple it. This would also have the effect of making it more difficult to hyper-gerrymander states so it sounds win-win to me.

  141. Here’s one try at coming up with a way to increase the number of House members to about 900. This would be good for democracy.
    Getting there is not easy (passed by both House and Senate, signed by Prez.), but easier than the Amendment route.
    The effect on Presidential election outcomes is less clear….due to FPTP elections (2016 outcome, for example, unchanged in the author’s calculations). That seems to be the heart of the problem with the Electoral College.
    The interstate compact seems to be another interesting approach.

  142. Here’s one try at coming up with a way to increase the number of House members to about 900. This would be good for democracy.
    Getting there is not easy (passed by both House and Senate, signed by Prez.), but easier than the Amendment route.
    The effect on Presidential election outcomes is less clear….due to FPTP elections (2016 outcome, for example, unchanged in the author’s calculations). That seems to be the heart of the problem with the Electoral College.
    The interstate compact seems to be another interesting approach.

  143. A new voting rights act is going to have a very hard time getting through the Senate, particularly if is addresses gerrymandering.
    It should certainly be attempted, though.
    Even if the Dems win both Senate seats in Georgia, a comprehensive new VRA will take some time to get through the Senate. 17 of the 50 Dems will be from western states, most with a heavily used vote by mail system, or a redistricting commission, or both. At least to my reading, the House bills passed in the last couple of years got far enough down into details that it was not clear those western systems would have conformed. I can imagine the Dem Senators from HI and NV saying, “My state just spent a ton of money and effort to build a contemporary vote by mail system. What do you mean it’s not acceptable?”

  144. A new voting rights act is going to have a very hard time getting through the Senate, particularly if is addresses gerrymandering.
    It should certainly be attempted, though.
    Even if the Dems win both Senate seats in Georgia, a comprehensive new VRA will take some time to get through the Senate. 17 of the 50 Dems will be from western states, most with a heavily used vote by mail system, or a redistricting commission, or both. At least to my reading, the House bills passed in the last couple of years got far enough down into details that it was not clear those western systems would have conformed. I can imagine the Dem Senators from HI and NV saying, “My state just spent a ton of money and effort to build a contemporary vote by mail system. What do you mean it’s not acceptable?”

  145. Interesting stuff. In regards to dealing with finding inspiring candidates, I have to think that the disenfranchisement, etc etc has got to have an effect on the type of people who are willing to step up. More willing candidates might step forward if they didn’t have to brave the gauntlet of bullshit measures put in place to suppress the vote. Level the playing field, you might find all sorts of people who could play the game.
    I think getting things right on the local level is a lot more important than any Electoral College fixes. Not that I think that the EC is fine, but it betrays that thinking that there is one magical fix to our problems.
    About getting out of our bubble, I wholeheartedly agree. Since George Floyd was killed, I’ve spent a lot more time reading sites about Black America and Americans. They include
    https://thegrio.com/
    https://www.theroot.com/
    https://theminorityeye.com/
    https://theundefeated.com/
    Unfortunately, some (maybe all) of them are attempts by white owned media companies to create something for the market. But if I wait around for something and sniff at authenticity, I’ll be waiting forever. Also, there is “black twitter”, and I’m still trying to figure out twitter and use it for Japanese.
    I also try and read some foreign news sources, but I’m limited to English (I read Japanese news, but it is hampered by kisha clubs as this article talks about
    http://www.jpri.org/publications/workingpapers/wp18.html
    which may account for some, but not all, of my tendencies here) and so not being able to read the vernacular from other countries (or even knowing what and where one reads this stuff) I tend to stick to what I can find.
    Certainly one of the constants here has been the question of how to bring in more conservatives, but similar efforts to diversify here in terms of age, gender and ethnicity haven’t really been done because 1)this is an operation that has only gotten more laissez-faire as time has gone on and 2)we also don’t ask/demand/require self-identification, which would be pretty fraught. We are fortunate to have a few women’s voices who generally try and provide some guardrails for the Y chromosones here (and I’m profoundly grateful to them). But for the most part, I get the impression that this is pretty much a 40+ group of folks in definite need of sunscreen with a smattering of young-uns who hangout with us geezers for god knows what reason.
    Which has me wonder, if it’s problematic to talk about privilege here, how are folks supposed to deal with it when outside this space? I can see how talk about privilege can be a rhetorical move rather than an actual observation, but I’d have to judge it on the context it appears in rather than making a blanket judgement. If there have been specific instances where privilege has been deployed in such a manner, I’d be interested to see it identified and talked about. But if we can’t dissect it here, I don’t think that we can wander into other spaces and expect it to go very well.

  146. Interesting stuff. In regards to dealing with finding inspiring candidates, I have to think that the disenfranchisement, etc etc has got to have an effect on the type of people who are willing to step up. More willing candidates might step forward if they didn’t have to brave the gauntlet of bullshit measures put in place to suppress the vote. Level the playing field, you might find all sorts of people who could play the game.
    I think getting things right on the local level is a lot more important than any Electoral College fixes. Not that I think that the EC is fine, but it betrays that thinking that there is one magical fix to our problems.
    About getting out of our bubble, I wholeheartedly agree. Since George Floyd was killed, I’ve spent a lot more time reading sites about Black America and Americans. They include
    https://thegrio.com/
    https://www.theroot.com/
    https://theminorityeye.com/
    https://theundefeated.com/
    Unfortunately, some (maybe all) of them are attempts by white owned media companies to create something for the market. But if I wait around for something and sniff at authenticity, I’ll be waiting forever. Also, there is “black twitter”, and I’m still trying to figure out twitter and use it for Japanese.
    I also try and read some foreign news sources, but I’m limited to English (I read Japanese news, but it is hampered by kisha clubs as this article talks about
    http://www.jpri.org/publications/workingpapers/wp18.html
    which may account for some, but not all, of my tendencies here) and so not being able to read the vernacular from other countries (or even knowing what and where one reads this stuff) I tend to stick to what I can find.
    Certainly one of the constants here has been the question of how to bring in more conservatives, but similar efforts to diversify here in terms of age, gender and ethnicity haven’t really been done because 1)this is an operation that has only gotten more laissez-faire as time has gone on and 2)we also don’t ask/demand/require self-identification, which would be pretty fraught. We are fortunate to have a few women’s voices who generally try and provide some guardrails for the Y chromosones here (and I’m profoundly grateful to them). But for the most part, I get the impression that this is pretty much a 40+ group of folks in definite need of sunscreen with a smattering of young-uns who hangout with us geezers for god knows what reason.
    Which has me wonder, if it’s problematic to talk about privilege here, how are folks supposed to deal with it when outside this space? I can see how talk about privilege can be a rhetorical move rather than an actual observation, but I’d have to judge it on the context it appears in rather than making a blanket judgement. If there have been specific instances where privilege has been deployed in such a manner, I’d be interested to see it identified and talked about. But if we can’t dissect it here, I don’t think that we can wander into other spaces and expect it to go very well.

  147. 17 of the 50 Dems will be from western states, most with a heavily used vote by mail system, or a redistricting commission, or both. At least to my reading, the House bills passed in the last couple of years got far enough down into details that it was not clear those western systems would have conformed.
    Hopefully, the folks in the House (which, after all, includes Representatives from those states) will also be aware of the issue. And spend some effort to make sure that the bill they eventually pass is written so that those systems do conform. Or at least can do so with minimal tweaks.

  148. 17 of the 50 Dems will be from western states, most with a heavily used vote by mail system, or a redistricting commission, or both. At least to my reading, the House bills passed in the last couple of years got far enough down into details that it was not clear those western systems would have conformed.
    Hopefully, the folks in the House (which, after all, includes Representatives from those states) will also be aware of the issue. And spend some effort to make sure that the bill they eventually pass is written so that those systems do conform. Or at least can do so with minimal tweaks.

  149. we should probably double the size of the House of Representatives, or maybe triple it.
    That helps a little. I was going to suggest that getting every state to assign EV’s in proportion to the vote would get it done, but the peril is that third party candidates would pick off enough ones and twos to deny either major candidate a majority and throw the thing into the House. This would have happened in 2016, for example.

  150. we should probably double the size of the House of Representatives, or maybe triple it.
    That helps a little. I was going to suggest that getting every state to assign EV’s in proportion to the vote would get it done, but the peril is that third party candidates would pick off enough ones and twos to deny either major candidate a majority and throw the thing into the House. This would have happened in 2016, for example.

  151. Barr: No evidence of fraud that’d change election outcome
    https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-joe-biden-donald-trump-elections-william-barr-b1f1488796c9a98c4b1a9061a6c7f49d

    In an interview with The Associated Press, Barr said U.S. attorneys and FBI agents have been working to follow up specific complaints and information they’ve received, but they’ve uncovered no evidence that would change the outcome of the election.
    “To date, we have not seen fraud on a scale that could have effected a different outcome in the election,” Barr told the AP.

    I can’t wait for tRump’s reaction. Actually, I can. I’d prefer never to see him react to anything again.

  152. Barr: No evidence of fraud that’d change election outcome
    https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-joe-biden-donald-trump-elections-william-barr-b1f1488796c9a98c4b1a9061a6c7f49d

    In an interview with The Associated Press, Barr said U.S. attorneys and FBI agents have been working to follow up specific complaints and information they’ve received, but they’ve uncovered no evidence that would change the outcome of the election.
    “To date, we have not seen fraud on a scale that could have effected a different outcome in the election,” Barr told the AP.

    I can’t wait for tRump’s reaction. Actually, I can. I’d prefer never to see him react to anything again.

  153. Barr’s comment simply proves that the conspiracy at the FBI to cheat Trump of his victory goes all the way to the top of the Justice Department. It’s MAGA Reality.

  154. Barr’s comment simply proves that the conspiracy at the FBI to cheat Trump of his victory goes all the way to the top of the Justice Department. It’s MAGA Reality.

  155. Would it be possible for the Democratic Party to urge the state parties to use ranked choice voting in their primaries? There would still be the caucus states doing their own thing, but ranked choice might give a better picture of what Democratic voters actually support.
    I mean, the GOP needs it worse, but from what I’ve seen of state level GOP leadership, I think that the state leadership really does not want to be held to what the average GOP voter wants.

  156. Would it be possible for the Democratic Party to urge the state parties to use ranked choice voting in their primaries? There would still be the caucus states doing their own thing, but ranked choice might give a better picture of what Democratic voters actually support.
    I mean, the GOP needs it worse, but from what I’ve seen of state level GOP leadership, I think that the state leadership really does not want to be held to what the average GOP voter wants.

  157. I think that the state leadership really does not want to be held to what the average GOP voter wants.
    Since the average Republican voter seems to be a conspriacy theory loving Trump fan, who can blame them?

  158. I think that the state leadership really does not want to be held to what the average GOP voter wants.
    Since the average Republican voter seems to be a conspriacy theory loving Trump fan, who can blame them?

  159. Since the average Republican voter seems to be a conspriacy theory loving Trump fan, who can blame them?
    I was actually thinking it was the other way, that the people active in the GOP on the state level were mostly farther right and more driven by ideology than the average GOP voter. That seems to be the case in the states I’ve looked at when digging into their state conventions and the infighting.
    I think that, had the GOP used ranked choice in 2016, they would have coughed up a Cruz or Rubio shaped hairball rather than ending up with Trump. Not sure how the 2020 Democrats would have come out, but we would certainly have a better picture of how deep Sanders’ support actually ran outside of his core, and we might have seen a bit more of a through line for Warren or Harris or Buttigieg.

  160. Since the average Republican voter seems to be a conspriacy theory loving Trump fan, who can blame them?
    I was actually thinking it was the other way, that the people active in the GOP on the state level were mostly farther right and more driven by ideology than the average GOP voter. That seems to be the case in the states I’ve looked at when digging into their state conventions and the infighting.
    I think that, had the GOP used ranked choice in 2016, they would have coughed up a Cruz or Rubio shaped hairball rather than ending up with Trump. Not sure how the 2020 Democrats would have come out, but we would certainly have a better picture of how deep Sanders’ support actually ran outside of his core, and we might have seen a bit more of a through line for Warren or Harris or Buttigieg.

  161. To your point, wj, I think there is a hard split on the right between the donor base and the party activist base. The money wants less volatility, the boots on the ground are wanting an even more pointed and unapologetic platform.

  162. To your point, wj, I think there is a hard split on the right between the donor base and the party activist base. The money wants less volatility, the boots on the ground are wanting an even more pointed and unapologetic platform.

  163. I think that, had the GOP used ranked choice in 2016, they would have coughed up a Cruz or Rubio shaped hairball rather than ending up with Trump
    Possibly. I’d like to think so, anyway.
    Not that I have all that much use for either of them. But “not as bad as Trump” is a damn low bar to clear. Whether one is talking about “not as bad for the nation” or just “not as bad for the GOP, in the medium to long term.”

  164. I think that, had the GOP used ranked choice in 2016, they would have coughed up a Cruz or Rubio shaped hairball rather than ending up with Trump
    Possibly. I’d like to think so, anyway.
    Not that I have all that much use for either of them. But “not as bad as Trump” is a damn low bar to clear. Whether one is talking about “not as bad for the nation” or just “not as bad for the GOP, in the medium to long term.”

  165. I think there is a hard split on the right between the donor base and the party activist base
    Has been for some time. What has changed, I think, is that the party activist (fanatic) base has started to figure out that they can insist on what they have been promised, policy-wise. Rather than settling for politicians who give them plenty of rhetoric, but give the donors policies.
    Not that Trump wasn’t doing exactly the same thing in a lot of cases. See tax cuts for the rich. But he gave them a few visible (albeit totally ineffectual, not to mention massively ineptly done) gestures like the border wall. And now they think they can actually get the things they have been promised for so long.
    I can see why the party leaders are scared. They may have to do things that they know the donors won’t like. But if I was the donors, I’d be more scared. Because what the base thinks it wants involves, in many cases, exactly the kind of attacks on the elites that the left has been championing for so long. Leaving them nowhere to hide.

  166. I think there is a hard split on the right between the donor base and the party activist base
    Has been for some time. What has changed, I think, is that the party activist (fanatic) base has started to figure out that they can insist on what they have been promised, policy-wise. Rather than settling for politicians who give them plenty of rhetoric, but give the donors policies.
    Not that Trump wasn’t doing exactly the same thing in a lot of cases. See tax cuts for the rich. But he gave them a few visible (albeit totally ineffectual, not to mention massively ineptly done) gestures like the border wall. And now they think they can actually get the things they have been promised for so long.
    I can see why the party leaders are scared. They may have to do things that they know the donors won’t like. But if I was the donors, I’d be more scared. Because what the base thinks it wants involves, in many cases, exactly the kind of attacks on the elites that the left has been championing for so long. Leaving them nowhere to hide.

  167. Trump gave them what they wanted, which were all of those activist judges to hamstring women’s health and gay rights arguments and cripple any efforts at federal regulation of public health or environmental issues. Now they can be bold in their opposition, believing that the courts will have their backs.
    And we will have to see if the courts do.
    With local law enforcement often on their side and federal courts likely refusing to step in, they will push their weird mix of libertarianism and christian-nationalism as far as they can.

  168. Trump gave them what they wanted, which were all of those activist judges to hamstring women’s health and gay rights arguments and cripple any efforts at federal regulation of public health or environmental issues. Now they can be bold in their opposition, believing that the courts will have their backs.
    And we will have to see if the courts do.
    With local law enforcement often on their side and federal courts likely refusing to step in, they will push their weird mix of libertarianism and christian-nationalism as far as they can.

  169. With local law enforcement often on their side and federal courts likely refusing to step in, they will push their weird mix of libertarianism and christian-nationalism as far as they can.
    Libertarians can little in the way of libertarianism in the GOP. And little to like in either party.
    “”Today, many leaders of the Republican Party have coalesced around a desire to purge libertarians, with our pesky commitments to economic liberty and international trade, from their midst,” Reason‘s Stephanie Slade pointed out in an August The New York Times column. She cited party figures rejecting not just figures like Amash and Massie, but libertarian ideas about free markets and limited government.
    With the Democrats victorious in the presidential contest, while Republicans (probably) retain the Senate, gain seats in the House, and thrive at the state level, there’s little sign that the big political parties will feel a need to appeal to a libertarian faction that drives them to distraction but is entirely incompatible with their competing brands of authoritarianism.
    More than ever, that leaves libertarians without a home in either of the major political parties. It also, incidentally, leaves the United States without a major political party even slightly inclined to leave people alone to manage their own affairs. Those of us who value liberty, then, are left in permanent opposition to the meddlesome major political parties, and to the government they dominate.”
    Libertarians Have No Home in Either Dominant Political Party: Which leaves the U.S. without a major party even slightly inclined to leave people alone to manage their own affairs.

  170. With local law enforcement often on their side and federal courts likely refusing to step in, they will push their weird mix of libertarianism and christian-nationalism as far as they can.
    Libertarians can little in the way of libertarianism in the GOP. And little to like in either party.
    “”Today, many leaders of the Republican Party have coalesced around a desire to purge libertarians, with our pesky commitments to economic liberty and international trade, from their midst,” Reason‘s Stephanie Slade pointed out in an August The New York Times column. She cited party figures rejecting not just figures like Amash and Massie, but libertarian ideas about free markets and limited government.
    With the Democrats victorious in the presidential contest, while Republicans (probably) retain the Senate, gain seats in the House, and thrive at the state level, there’s little sign that the big political parties will feel a need to appeal to a libertarian faction that drives them to distraction but is entirely incompatible with their competing brands of authoritarianism.
    More than ever, that leaves libertarians without a home in either of the major political parties. It also, incidentally, leaves the United States without a major political party even slightly inclined to leave people alone to manage their own affairs. Those of us who value liberty, then, are left in permanent opposition to the meddlesome major political parties, and to the government they dominate.”
    Libertarians Have No Home in Either Dominant Political Party: Which leaves the U.S. without a major party even slightly inclined to leave people alone to manage their own affairs.

  173. And yet the cultists continue to believe themselves thoroughly libertarian as they fight against mask mandates, vaccine requirements for public schools, and any civil rights legislation that requires them to treat the iniquitous as human beings.

  174. And yet the cultists continue to believe themselves thoroughly libertarian as they fight against mask mandates, vaccine requirements for public schools, and any civil rights legislation that requires them to treat the iniquitous as human beings.

  175. “Libertarian” when it comes to resisting requirements that they dislike. But authoritarian when it comes to forcing others to behave as they wish.
    They are inherently incompatible approaches. But they’ve managed to yoke them together for quite a while, based on a shared dislike of what liberals want to see done. Bit of a question how long pure “against” will work as a sole organizing principle. So far, longer than I would have predicted.

  176. “Libertarian” when it comes to resisting requirements that they dislike. But authoritarian when it comes to forcing others to behave as they wish.
    They are inherently incompatible approaches. But they’ve managed to yoke them together for quite a while, based on a shared dislike of what liberals want to see done. Bit of a question how long pure “against” will work as a sole organizing principle. So far, longer than I would have predicted.

  177. Libertarians can find little… in the way of a coherent intellectual argument on just about anything. They mouth an intellectually bankrupt ideology that persists only because it dovetails with those who already have power and wealth and can wield it to effect by providing financial assistance to these ideologues in order they may reap the benefits of lower taxes and the comfort of relief from sensible regulatory policy.

  178. Libertarians can find little… in the way of a coherent intellectual argument on just about anything. They mouth an intellectually bankrupt ideology that persists only because it dovetails with those who already have power and wealth and can wield it to effect by providing financial assistance to these ideologues in order they may reap the benefits of lower taxes and the comfort of relief from sensible regulatory policy.

  179. I’m all for Libertarians creating their own colonies, where they can enter but not exit. Before they enter, they have to be sterilized (because we’re not going to allow them to abuse kids). They are not allowed to create offensive military weapons. I suggest they all go to Idaho, which I’ve heard is really pretty.
    Deal?

  180. I’m all for Libertarians creating their own colonies, where they can enter but not exit. Before they enter, they have to be sterilized (because we’re not going to allow them to abuse kids). They are not allowed to create offensive military weapons. I suggest they all go to Idaho, which I’ve heard is really pretty.
    Deal?

  181. What’s the Libertarian(TM) position on a “public option” in health insurance?
    I imagine most True Libertarians are sane enough to want health insurance for themselves. With a public option they would have one more choice of insurer than they would otherwise, just like normal people. I should think more choice increases Personal Liberty(TM), but I’ve been known to misunderstand Libertarian(TM) definitions of Liberty(TM) before this.
    –TP

  182. What’s the Libertarian(TM) position on a “public option” in health insurance?
    I imagine most True Libertarians are sane enough to want health insurance for themselves. With a public option they would have one more choice of insurer than they would otherwise, just like normal people. I should think more choice increases Personal Liberty(TM), but I’ve been known to misunderstand Libertarian(TM) definitions of Liberty(TM) before this.
    –TP

  183. For a Real Libertarian(TM), if government is involved it is, from first principle, bad. Even if it merely provides an additional option.
    While the true believers doubtless can list numerous differences, from the outside the difference between true-believer libertarianism and anarchism is not real visible.

  184. For a Real Libertarian(TM), if government is involved it is, from first principle, bad. Even if it merely provides an additional option.
    While the true believers doubtless can list numerous differences, from the outside the difference between true-believer libertarianism and anarchism is not real visible.

  185. I think we are a (little) unfair to Charles. It doesn’t help that the self professed libertarian politicians in the US appear to be completely nuts, but there is a strong strain of positive libertarianism in American culture.
    After all, what is the First Amendment, if not libertarian ?

  186. I think we are a (little) unfair to Charles. It doesn’t help that the self professed libertarian politicians in the US appear to be completely nuts, but there is a strong strain of positive libertarianism in American culture.
    After all, what is the First Amendment, if not libertarian ?

  189. Libertarians can find little…
    At first, I thought it was ‘can do little’. But then I realized that libertarians don’t do, they just find situations to insert themselves into…

  190. Libertarians can find little…
    At first, I thought it was ‘can do little’. But then I realized that libertarians don’t do, they just find situations to insert themselves into…

  191. The reason why rural areas voted for Trump is quite simple: massive increases in agricultural subsidies in the last two years, in direct contradiction to Trump’s announced intentions earlier in his presidency.
    These increases started as generous compensation for the effects of his stupid trade wars, then were ramped up this year because Covid.
    Quite simply, the Rs have used federal money to buy rural votes. There’s nothing the Ds can do about this unless they’re willing to pursue the same damaging policies.
    The truth is that overall, farm subsidies are harmful to small farmers (and to the USA generally). Farm-gate prices get forced down to the lowest level that keeps sufficient farms in business, so the incidence of the subsidies is on consumers not producers. What subsidies do is help large farmers, who are better at farming subsidies, relative to small ones. That is, not only do the Rs get to buy votes with someone else’s money, they get to give the money to their rich friends too.
    Sometimes libertarians have got a point.

  192. The reason why rural areas voted for Trump is quite simple: massive increases in agricultural subsidies in the last two years, in direct contradiction to Trump’s announced intentions earlier in his presidency.
    These increases started as generous compensation for the effects of his stupid trade wars, then were ramped up this year because Covid.
    Quite simply, the Rs have used federal money to buy rural votes. There’s nothing the Ds can do about this unless they’re willing to pursue the same damaging policies.
    The truth is that overall, farm subsidies are harmful to small farmers (and to the USA generally). Farm-gate prices get forced down to the lowest level that keeps sufficient farms in business, so the incidence of the subsidies is on consumers not producers. What subsidies do is help large farmers, who are better at farming subsidies, relative to small ones. That is, not only do the Rs get to buy votes with someone else’s money, they get to give the money to their rich friends too.
    Sometimes libertarians have got a point.

  193. A really good article by a rural Democrat on why the party is failing in rural areas
    Thanks for this, Nigel.
    Sometimes libertarians have got a point.
    Libertarians always have a point. What they don’t have are ideas that scale.

  194. A really good article by a rural Democrat on why the party is failing in rural areas
    Thanks for this, Nigel.
    Sometimes libertarians have got a point.
    Libertarians always have a point. What they don’t have are ideas that scale.

  195. It doesn’t help that the self professed libertarian politicians in the US appear to be completely nuts, but there is a strong strain of positive libertarianism in American culture.
    If libertarianism actually meant that people are free to do what they want to the point that their actions harm others, I would be much more supportive of it. It would eliminate the opposition to, for example, environmental regulations.
    We would still have to figure out how to take care of the needs of the community, which in many cases can be best addressed by public services. Despite the alleged wisdom of the invisible hand, the economy doesn’t reward people equally for the work that they do. Even much-needed work is often low-wage.
    As for farm subsidies as they currently exist, Pro Bono’s description is accurate. But farming is an iffy business, and subsidies are probably necessary to ensure our abundant food supply. I’m sure the formulas used to provide them, and the selection of farmers they’re provided to need to be reformed in a big way.

  196. It doesn’t help that the self professed libertarian politicians in the US appear to be completely nuts, but there is a strong strain of positive libertarianism in American culture.
    If libertarianism actually meant that people are free to do what they want to the point that their actions harm others, I would be much more supportive of it. It would eliminate the opposition to, for example, environmental regulations.
    We would still have to figure out how to take care of the needs of the community, which in many cases can be best addressed by public services. Despite the alleged wisdom of the invisible hand, the economy doesn’t reward people equally for the work that they do. Even much-needed work is often low-wage.
    As for farm subsidies as they currently exist, Pro Bono’s description is accurate. But farming is an iffy business, and subsidies are probably necessary to ensure our abundant food supply. I’m sure the formulas used to provide them, and the selection of farmers they’re provided to need to be reformed in a big way.

  197. Look, folks. You got your supply curve and you got your demand curve. Those curves intersect at the right price for whatever it is you’re talking about. That’s all you really need to know, okay?

  198. Look, folks. You got your supply curve and you got your demand curve. Those curves intersect at the right price for whatever it is you’re talking about. That’s all you really need to know, okay?

  199. Nigel,
    Read the article. Interesting point of view from a rural Democrat. But is it not the case that the whole point of the Industrial Revolution was, and remains, to move people off the land?
    The vision proffered by the author, small farms, vibrant small towns, etc., stand in direct contradiction to the market outcomes of increasing productivity, corporatization, and oligarchic competition.
    So vote for Republicans?
    Really?
    Sometimes I feel Thomas Frank really has the correct take on this issue.

  200. Nigel,
    Read the article. Interesting point of view from a rural Democrat. But is it not the case that the whole point of the Industrial Revolution was, and remains, to move people off the land?
    The vision proffered by the author, small farms, vibrant small towns, etc., stand in direct contradiction to the market outcomes of increasing productivity, corporatization, and oligarchic competition.
    So vote for Republicans?
    Really?
    Sometimes I feel Thomas Frank really has the correct take on this issue.

  201. High speed internet to every corner of the US. Make it happen and things will turn around for rural areas.
    Not that they will like it, because all of those millennials and Gen Z kids I taught over the years will grab hold of the opportunity to buy a house there and start sustainable side hustling the community straight into elitist mindful self-care groups and regenerative agriculture farm co-ops.
    The last thing most of my small town former schoolmates want is a thriving local economy in which they can buy arugula, kombucha, and non-dairy artisanal cheese from the nice mixed race same sex couple down the road who moved there from the Bay Area three years ago.

  202. High speed internet to every corner of the US. Make it happen and things will turn around for rural areas.
    Not that they will like it, because all of those millennials and Gen Z kids I taught over the years will grab hold of the opportunity to buy a house there and start sustainable side hustling the community straight into elitist mindful self-care groups and regenerative agriculture farm co-ops.
    The last thing most of my small town former schoolmates want is a thriving local economy in which they can buy arugula, kombucha, and non-dairy artisanal cheese from the nice mixed race same sex couple down the road who moved there from the Bay Area three years ago.

  203. “ Sometimes I feel Thomas Frank really has the correct take on this issue.“
    Pretty sure Thomas Frank would agree with the Politico writer.

  204. “ Sometimes I feel Thomas Frank really has the correct take on this issue.“
    Pretty sure Thomas Frank would agree with the Politico writer.

  209. nous: High speed internet to every corner of the US.
    Mandate the USPS to provide last-mile connectivity and ISP hosting to every address in the US. Establish “post offices and post roads” says Article 1 of the Constitution. If, despite the Framers having no idea of them, they meant “arms” to include AR-15s, then let’s hear arguments for why they meant to exclude email from the “post”.
    –TP

  210. nous: High speed internet to every corner of the US.
    Mandate the USPS to provide last-mile connectivity and ISP hosting to every address in the US. Establish “post offices and post roads” says Article 1 of the Constitution. If, despite the Framers having no idea of them, they meant “arms” to include AR-15s, then let’s hear arguments for why they meant to exclude email from the “post”.
    –TP

  215. WTF is wrong with this guy?
    Having seen proof that he’s immune. why bother to worry about blowing off the Constitution, the laws, etc.?

  216. WTF is wrong with this guy?
    Having seen proof that he’s immune. why bother to worry about blowing off the Constitution, the laws, etc.?

  217. “WTF is wrong with this guy?”
    Is the answer somehow STILL elusive?
    He’s a conservative movement trump republican fascist traitor intent on destroying American and killing his domestic enemies, as are his tens of millions, perhaps more, of conservative republican confederates now establishing Marty’s Deep State to subvert all governance, from within and without our institutions.
    It is actually a handy thing Fuhrer Trump has done, returning electrocution and firing squads to the federal death penalty arsenal.
    Joe Biden should maintain those arrows in the government’s quiver to execute the conservative insurrectionist horror that is coming.
    Elections may NOT matter.

  218. “WTF is wrong with this guy?”
    Is the answer somehow STILL elusive?
    He’s a conservative movement trump republican fascist traitor intent on destroying American and killing his domestic enemies, as are his tens of millions, perhaps more, of conservative republican confederates now establishing Marty’s Deep State to subvert all governance, from within and without our institutions.
    It is actually a handy thing Fuhrer Trump has done, returning electrocution and firing squads to the federal death penalty arsenal.
    Joe Biden should maintain those arrows in the government’s quiver to execute the conservative insurrectionist horror that is coming.
    Elections may NOT matter.

  219. The Flynn thing is treasonous in the old sense of the word even if not in the very narrow Constitutional sense. But hey, he clearly doesn’t believe in the Constitution.

  220. The Flynn thing is treasonous in the old sense of the word even if not in the very narrow Constitutional sense. But hey, he clearly doesn’t believe in the Constitution.

  221. If 70 million MAGAts don’t call it treason, is it still treason?
    I invite anybody who ever voted for, made excuses for, or otherwise defended He, Trump to ask themselves: why is this seditious fascist Flynn on our side?
    The answer is obvious to me, but I don’t meet a single one of the above criteria.
    –TP

  222. If 70 million MAGAts don’t call it treason, is it still treason?
    I invite anybody who ever voted for, made excuses for, or otherwise defended He, Trump to ask themselves: why is this seditious fascist Flynn on our side?
    The answer is obvious to me, but I don’t meet a single one of the above criteria.
    –TP

  223. WTF is wrong with this guy?
    Something in the water. That, or alien body snatchers.
    In any case, there’s a lot of it going around.

  224. WTF is wrong with this guy?
    Something in the water. That, or alien body snatchers.
    In any case, there’s a lot of it going around.

  229. Irresistible memories of Larry Craig. I don’t know if he had been a particularly vocal homophobe, but I certainly remember his “wide stance”.
    The Larry Craig scandal was an incident that began on June 11, 2007, with the arrest of Craig, who at the time was a Republican United States Senator from Idaho, for lewd conduct in a men’s restroom at the Minneapolis–St. Paul International Airport. Craig later entered a guilty plea to a lesser charge of disorderly conduct on August 8.
    As a result of the controversy surrounding his arrest, subsequent guilty plea, and pressure from his fellow Republicans, Craig announced his intention to resign from the Senate at a news conference on September 1, which was to become effective on September 30. After Craig’s efforts to withdraw his guilty plea failed, on October 4, he released a statement refusing to resign from the Senate. Craig did not run for re-election in 2008, and the incident effectively ended his political career.

  230. Irresistible memories of Larry Craig. I don’t know if he had been a particularly vocal homophobe, but I certainly remember his “wide stance”.
    The Larry Craig scandal was an incident that began on June 11, 2007, with the arrest of Craig, who at the time was a Republican United States Senator from Idaho, for lewd conduct in a men’s restroom at the Minneapolis–St. Paul International Airport. Craig later entered a guilty plea to a lesser charge of disorderly conduct on August 8.
    As a result of the controversy surrounding his arrest, subsequent guilty plea, and pressure from his fellow Republicans, Craig announced his intention to resign from the Senate at a news conference on September 1, which was to become effective on September 30. After Craig’s efforts to withdraw his guilty plea failed, on October 4, he released a statement refusing to resign from the Senate. Craig did not run for re-election in 2008, and the incident effectively ended his political career.

  235. The prime requirement for being a member of Biden’s cabinet is being hated by Bernie-bros…
    Hogwash. From the people he has selected so far, the prime requirement seems to be expertise and experience.

  236. The prime requirement for being a member of Biden’s cabinet is being hated by Bernie-bros…
    Hogwash. From the people he has selected so far, the prime requirement seems to be expertise and experience.

  237. “Irresistible memories of Larry Craig.”
    Well, the mis-spawned Falwell ejaculate, Jerry by name, Trump servicer, and his hot to be watched knees apart republican trump conservative movement wife, are close, if you consider that the holes the fascist faux Christians mess with are only inches apart, but they believe all the rest of us should be prosecuted, persecuted and canceled for the very same pleasures, the filth, not that there is anything wrong with that except normal humans call it love and passion and they view all of it as criminal acts deserving of the death penalty, unless their elite selves get to do the rogering.
    Fake conservative Christians suffer the little children to come all over them and then expect at least a twenty in the offering plate from the duped parents.
    Meanwhile:
    https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/12/and-then-things-got-out-of-hand
    They are murderers. They will kill us and our country, dismissively beclowned as they are.
    Clowns can be scary. John Wayne Gacy seemed innocent enough at the kids’ birthday parties.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRP_uMWFueY
    Wait until the White House crawl space is dug up after the current perverted malignancies are chased out of the place at gunpoint.
    Biden needs to retract all of Trump’s pardons and turn them around as confessions of traitorous, corrupt, subhuman Republican guilt.
    It’s not like the useless Constitution has anything to say about it, unless six conservative pseudo-judges substitute their personal opinions for the document’s silence on the matter.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goebbels_children#/media/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-C17887,_Berlin,_Joseph_Goebbels_mit_Kindern_bei_Weihnachtsfeier.jpg
    One of the guys in back was in it just for the tax cuts, and another was in it for the Nazi Citizens United on behalf of the Krupp family in order the murder the Soros family.
    Not feeling to0 sorry for the Georgia Trump Republican dumbass officeholders who aided and abetted and advanced the subhuman republican trump world all these years for us and now, like a bunch of little Himmlers and Hesses are trying to sneak out of town at the last minute.
    It doesn’t escape the notice of the hangman, the scum.

  238. “Irresistible memories of Larry Craig.”
    Well, the mis-spawned Falwell ejaculate, Jerry by name, Trump servicer, and his hot to be watched knees apart republican trump conservative movement wife, are close, if you consider that the holes the fascist faux Christians mess with are only inches apart, but they believe all the rest of us should be prosecuted, persecuted and canceled for the very same pleasures, the filth, not that there is anything wrong with that except normal humans call it love and passion and they view all of it as criminal acts deserving of the death penalty, unless their elite selves get to do the rogering.
    Fake conservative Christians suffer the little children to come all over them and then expect at least a twenty in the offering plate from the duped parents.
    Meanwhile:
    https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/12/and-then-things-got-out-of-hand
    They are murderers. They will kill us and our country, dismissively beclowned as they are.
    Clowns can be scary. John Wayne Gacy seemed innocent enough at the kids’ birthday parties.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRP_uMWFueY
    Wait until the White House crawl space is dug up after the current perverted malignancies are chased out of the place at gunpoint.
    Biden needs to retract all of Trump’s pardons and turn them around as confessions of traitorous, corrupt, subhuman Republican guilt.
    It’s not like the useless Constitution has anything to say about it, unless six conservative pseudo-judges substitute their personal opinions for the document’s silence on the matter.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goebbels_children#/media/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-C17887,_Berlin,_Joseph_Goebbels_mit_Kindern_bei_Weihnachtsfeier.jpg
    One of the guys in back was in it just for the tax cuts, and another was in it for the Nazi Citizens United on behalf of the Krupp family in order the murder the Soros family.
    Not feeling to0 sorry for the Georgia Trump Republican dumbass officeholders who aided and abetted and advanced the subhuman republican trump world all these years for us and now, like a bunch of little Himmlers and Hesses are trying to sneak out of town at the last minute.
    It doesn’t escape the notice of the hangman, the scum.

  243. An amazing, even for him, 45 minute rant by Trump. Including calling on the Supreme Court to “do what’s right for our country.” Which he suggested entailed voiding hundreds of thousands of votes so that “I very easily win in all states.”
    Got that? All states. Nobody since Washington has won all the states’ electoral votes. So naturally Trump must do so.
    Increasingly it appears that Trump’s mental collapse is accelerating. Wonder how one goes about reversing a President’s actions on the grounds that he was non compos mentis.

  244. An amazing, even for him, 45 minute rant by Trump. Including calling on the Supreme Court to “do what’s right for our country.” Which he suggested entailed voiding hundreds of thousands of votes so that “I very easily win in all states.”
    Got that? All states. Nobody since Washington has won all the states’ electoral votes. So naturally Trump must do so.
    Increasingly it appears that Trump’s mental collapse is accelerating. Wonder how one goes about reversing a President’s actions on the grounds that he was non compos mentis.

  245. I know we’re supposed to back off from The Count’s rhetoric above (if I may guess an identity), but as a Georgia resident subjected to the advertising supporting the Republican candidates… they are describing the Democrats as radical, socialists out to destroy America. Effectively calling close to half the state’s voters as the enemy. Not any “Kumbaya Mofo” to be found. If someone declares you to be an enemy, best to take them at their word.

  246. I know we’re supposed to back off from The Count’s rhetoric above (if I may guess an identity), but as a Georgia resident subjected to the advertising supporting the Republican candidates… they are describing the Democrats as radical, socialists out to destroy America. Effectively calling close to half the state’s voters as the enemy. Not any “Kumbaya Mofo” to be found. If someone declares you to be an enemy, best to take them at their word.

  249. The pro-Warnock and Ossoff ads are about the policies they support. The negative ads against their opponents accurately point out their votes/support for dismantling the ACA, and more aggressively attack the (possibility) of insider trading as a result of actions after Covid briefings. Suggesting corruption, not disloyalty. Equivalence? We report, you decide.

  250. The pro-Warnock and Ossoff ads are about the policies they support. The negative ads against their opponents accurately point out their votes/support for dismantling the ACA, and more aggressively attack the (possibility) of insider trading as a result of actions after Covid briefings. Suggesting corruption, not disloyalty. Equivalence? We report, you decide.

  251. “Increasingly it appears that Trump’s mental collapse is accelerating.”
    It’s a dangerous and deadly national fascist psychosis, if we’re going to psychoanalyze. And, if someone threw a bucket of water over him and he melted, it’s not going to be a happy balloon ride back to Kansas to see Auntie Em, because Auntie is now an Orc in thrall to Mordor, if I may mix my fantasy metaphors.
    “Effectively calling close to half the state’s voters as the enemy.”
    The conservative movement has done this consistently and forever.
    It goes back much farther, of course, but Vigurie, Weyrich, Dobson, Blackwell, the entire Reagan phalanx, all recruited and trained the current crop of unAmerican haters to disenfranchise half the country, systematically and with overwhelming dark monetary support and the buildup of military level weaponry in their hands.
    Nixon before, and Bush II after.
    In Trump, they found their apotheosis and are full in now.
    But disenfranchising isn’t enough for them. You can smell the stench of their next phase in the air.
    They will kill.
    Of course, decent people here back off from my rhetoric.
    I get it. I’m not selling. I’m predicting. And I hope I’m wrong.
    I’m one guy distraught and aghast at what these hateful shitheads have wrought.
    Yes, take them at their word.
    They are NOT the better angels of Lincoln’s First Inaugural appeal.
    And look what happened after that appeal, ending with a bullet in his head, as better angels turned out to be in short supply and overwhelmed by home-grown all-American Evil of the same ferociousness as this current lot.
    They are just getting started and this is the last time America is going to put up with this shit.
    No more. We’re done. This evil, sadistic, contemptuous thing must be traumatically removed from the national character by all and every means and then the wound cauterized with sun-hot heat.
    I was once an unthinking nominal Republican.
    But to my mind, this has nothing to do with -isms.
    Time for me to lurk again, from my tree.

  252. “Increasingly it appears that Trump’s mental collapse is accelerating.”
    It’s a dangerous and deadly national fascist psychosis, if we’re going to psychoanalyze. And, if someone threw a bucket of water over him and he melted, it’s not going to be a happy balloon ride back to Kansas to see Auntie Em, because Auntie is now an Orc in thrall to Mordor, if I may mix my fantasy metaphors.
    “Effectively calling close to half the state’s voters as the enemy.”
    The conservative movement has done this consistently and forever.
    It goes back much farther, of course, but Vigurie, Weyrich, Dobson, Blackwell, the entire Reagan phalanx, all recruited and trained the current crop of unAmerican haters to disenfranchise half the country, systematically and with overwhelming dark monetary support and the buildup of military level weaponry in their hands.
    Nixon before, and Bush II after.
    In Trump, they found their apotheosis and are full in now.
    But disenfranchising isn’t enough for them. You can smell the stench of their next phase in the air.
    They will kill.
    Of course, decent people here back off from my rhetoric.
    I get it. I’m not selling. I’m predicting. And I hope I’m wrong.
    I’m one guy distraught and aghast at what these hateful shitheads have wrought.
    Yes, take them at their word.
    They are NOT the better angels of Lincoln’s First Inaugural appeal.
    And look what happened after that appeal, ending with a bullet in his head, as better angels turned out to be in short supply and overwhelmed by home-grown all-American Evil of the same ferociousness as this current lot.
    They are just getting started and this is the last time America is going to put up with this shit.
    No more. We’re done. This evil, sadistic, contemptuous thing must be traumatically removed from the national character by all and every means and then the wound cauterized with sun-hot heat.
    I was once an unthinking nominal Republican.
    But to my mind, this has nothing to do with -isms.
    Time for me to lurk again, from my tree.

  253. It’s a dangerous and deadly national fascist psychosis
    Sounds about right.
    This evil, sadistic, contemptuous thing must be traumatically removed from the national character
    How do you do that?

  254. It’s a dangerous and deadly national fascist psychosis
    Sounds about right.
    This evil, sadistic, contemptuous thing must be traumatically removed from the national character
    How do you do that?

  255. My hope is that the vast majority of MAGAts will do nothing much more than gripe on social media and that those who are driven to violence are very few and far between. Still not a good situation, but far better than a civil war or coup d’état. Hard to fathom what’s going on in people’s heads none the less.

  256. My hope is that the vast majority of MAGAts will do nothing much more than gripe on social media and that those who are driven to violence are very few and far between. Still not a good situation, but far better than a civil war or coup d’état. Hard to fathom what’s going on in people’s heads none the less.

  257. My prescriptions are extreme, inchoate, and unacceptable to nearly all and off the charts, as you know.
    And they are certainly not Antifa’s (differentiated from BLM’s mostly legal protests) ineffective, amateur and pathetic property damage and looting, although the former’s practice of “counting coup” on the streets is entertaining in a Comanche kind of way.
    I will stipulate that the “Generals” involved receive cases of Ulysses S. Grant’s favorite best whiskey weekly from Amazon for fortification against the enemy.
    I mean, how do you deal with this inexorable, uncompromising evil?:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7G9qi9MYhc
    You get SERIOUS professionals, thousands of them:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG6nshiR3aY
    Other than that, why pique the malign interest of the conservative movement’s massive deep state authoritarian law and order complex with details in this innocent forum?
    Here’s what I know. Hearts and minds cannot be appealed to when those being petitioned are authoritarian psychopathic sadists who slap down every good faith norm and have done so for decades with malignant glee they claim is derived from a Supreme Being, or Ayn Rand, or Reason Trumpazine, or some imaginary hydra combining all three.
    And it’s now not about -isms, policy, left or right with me. I care no longer how things settle as long as THEY are no longer around to f*ck up whatever the settlement is out of sheer nihilist hatred of whatever is not them.
    It’s about the rabid dogs running loose in my neighborhood, purposefully self-infected among themselves to menace my country.
    We have no standing in their ideological universe.
    Now, quietude beckons, much to everyone’s relief.

  258. My prescriptions are extreme, inchoate, and unacceptable to nearly all and off the charts, as you know.
    And they are certainly not Antifa’s (differentiated from BLM’s mostly legal protests) ineffective, amateur and pathetic property damage and looting, although the former’s practice of “counting coup” on the streets is entertaining in a Comanche kind of way.
    I will stipulate that the “Generals” involved receive cases of Ulysses S. Grant’s favorite best whiskey weekly from Amazon for fortification against the enemy.
    I mean, how do you deal with this inexorable, uncompromising evil?:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7G9qi9MYhc
    You get SERIOUS professionals, thousands of them:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG6nshiR3aY
    Other than that, why pique the malign interest of the conservative movement’s massive deep state authoritarian law and order complex with details in this innocent forum?
    Here’s what I know. Hearts and minds cannot be appealed to when those being petitioned are authoritarian psychopathic sadists who slap down every good faith norm and have done so for decades with malignant glee they claim is derived from a Supreme Being, or Ayn Rand, or Reason Trumpazine, or some imaginary hydra combining all three.
    And it’s now not about -isms, policy, left or right with me. I care no longer how things settle as long as THEY are no longer around to f*ck up whatever the settlement is out of sheer nihilist hatred of whatever is not them.
    It’s about the rabid dogs running loose in my neighborhood, purposefully self-infected among themselves to menace my country.
    We have no standing in their ideological universe.
    Now, quietude beckons, much to everyone’s relief.

  259. My hope is that the vast majority of MAGAts will do nothing much more than gripe on social media
    My expectation is that the vast majority of MAGAs will gripe on social media, if that. If there was going to be some groundswell of MAGAs rising up to smite the rest of us, I think it would have happened by now.
    There are folks who are capable of and prone to violence but I don’t their numbers are that large. Tens of thousands, maybe? Which is concerning, but not an existential threat.
    The folks calling for people to be shot, or hung, or drawn and quartered, and/or spreading rumors about deep institutional conspiracies remind me mostly of the run-up to the massacre in Rwanda. But nobody in any numbers is picking up their machetes in response.
    Thankfully.
    If nothing else, I just don’t think most people want that kind of mess and disruption in their lives. Inertia has its upsides. Plus, I just don’t think all that many people are up for, or want to be up for, actually killing or harming people they know. Which is what would be required.
    What really saves this country more than anything, IMO, is the deep tradition of keeping the military separate from domestic politics. Intelligence and law enforcement, too, to a lesser degree, but the military’s consistent refusal to get drawn into one side or another in domestic politics is something we should be very grateful for, and something we should defend.
    I compared Trump to Pinochet in some thread or other recently. McK found that laughable. The reason it’s laughable, and really the only reason it’s laughable, is because the military in this country doesn’t play that game.
    There has been, and will continue to be, violence, but not enough to undermine civil order.
    May it continue to be that way.

  260. My hope is that the vast majority of MAGAts will do nothing much more than gripe on social media
    My expectation is that the vast majority of MAGAs will gripe on social media, if that. If there was going to be some groundswell of MAGAs rising up to smite the rest of us, I think it would have happened by now.
    There are folks who are capable of and prone to violence but I don’t their numbers are that large. Tens of thousands, maybe? Which is concerning, but not an existential threat.
    The folks calling for people to be shot, or hung, or drawn and quartered, and/or spreading rumors about deep institutional conspiracies remind me mostly of the run-up to the massacre in Rwanda. But nobody in any numbers is picking up their machetes in response.
    Thankfully.
    If nothing else, I just don’t think most people want that kind of mess and disruption in their lives. Inertia has its upsides. Plus, I just don’t think all that many people are up for, or want to be up for, actually killing or harming people they know. Which is what would be required.
    What really saves this country more than anything, IMO, is the deep tradition of keeping the military separate from domestic politics. Intelligence and law enforcement, too, to a lesser degree, but the military’s consistent refusal to get drawn into one side or another in domestic politics is something we should be very grateful for, and something we should defend.
    I compared Trump to Pinochet in some thread or other recently. McK found that laughable. The reason it’s laughable, and really the only reason it’s laughable, is because the military in this country doesn’t play that game.
    There has been, and will continue to be, violence, but not enough to undermine civil order.
    May it continue to be that way.

  261. What really saves this country more than anything, IMO, is the deep tradition of keeping the military separate from domestic politics. Intelligence and law enforcement, too, to a lesser degree, but the military’s consistent refusal to get drawn into one side or another in domestic politics is something we should be very grateful for, and something we should defend.
    I have serious doubts about the law enforcement side of this, especially at the rural sheriff level. What I expect to see is something like the Klan’s old organization with a patriot militia face. No civil war, just a shadow army of intimidation and selective enforcement.

  262. What really saves this country more than anything, IMO, is the deep tradition of keeping the military separate from domestic politics. Intelligence and law enforcement, too, to a lesser degree, but the military’s consistent refusal to get drawn into one side or another in domestic politics is something we should be very grateful for, and something we should defend.
    I have serious doubts about the law enforcement side of this, especially at the rural sheriff level. What I expect to see is something like the Klan’s old organization with a patriot militia face. No civil war, just a shadow army of intimidation and selective enforcement.

  267. As an aside on another topic, when somebody badgers you about the Democrats not “meeting the GOP halfway” in current discussions regarding a 2nd COVID relief package, smack them in the face with this. Violence is as violence does.

  268. As an aside on another topic, when somebody badgers you about the Democrats not “meeting the GOP halfway” in current discussions regarding a 2nd COVID relief package, smack them in the face with this. Violence is as violence does.

  269. Nous, not onus. Spellcheck strikes again. It’s the rise of the machines. Somehow I thought it would be worse.

  270. Nous, not onus. Spellcheck strikes again. It’s the rise of the machines. Somehow I thought it would be worse.

  271. The vision proffered by the author, small farms, vibrant small towns, etc., stand in direct contradiction to the market outcomes of increasing productivity, corporatization, and oligarchic competition.
    Exactly right.
    That vision needs subsidies (psst – government handouts), and regulations. You know, the things Republicans profess to hate.
    In fact, rural America is already heavily subsidized in lots of ways.
    Now the fact is, I don’t really mind helping with some of that. You want decent medical care, schools, good internet access? Suits me.
    But drop the piety and sanctimony and “real America” BS. Stop complaining about being discriminated against when you have outsized political power, and use it stupidly.
    You know, not long ago there was a string of stories about the plight of rural hospitals, with lots of sad interviews with the locals. Yet, many of these places had refused the ACA Medicaid expansion. Because they are “self-reliant,” I suppose.

  272. The vision proffered by the author, small farms, vibrant small towns, etc., stand in direct contradiction to the market outcomes of increasing productivity, corporatization, and oligarchic competition.
    Exactly right.
    That vision needs subsidies (psst – government handouts), and regulations. You know, the things Republicans profess to hate.
    In fact, rural America is already heavily subsidized in lots of ways.
    Now the fact is, I don’t really mind helping with some of that. You want decent medical care, schools, good internet access? Suits me.
    But drop the piety and sanctimony and “real America” BS. Stop complaining about being discriminated against when you have outsized political power, and use it stupidly.
    You know, not long ago there was a string of stories about the plight of rural hospitals, with lots of sad interviews with the locals. Yet, many of these places had refused the ACA Medicaid expansion. Because they are “self-reliant,” I suppose.

  273. Some states with shortages of rural hospitals have done it to themselves with their certificate-of-need (CON) laws.

  274. Some states with shortages of rural hospitals have done it to themselves with their certificate-of-need (CON) laws.

  275. So ow many years should Barr spend behind bars ?
    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/12/03/ex-fbi-attorney-asks-to-avoid-jail-442767
    …“The Court’s sentence should send a message that people like the defendant — an attorney in a position of trust who others relied upon — will face serious consequences if they commit crimes that result in material misstatements or omissions to a court,” prosecutors working for Durham argued in their submission Thursday night….

  276. So ow many years should Barr spend behind bars ?
    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/12/03/ex-fbi-attorney-asks-to-avoid-jail-442767
    …“The Court’s sentence should send a message that people like the defendant — an attorney in a position of trust who others relied upon — will face serious consequences if they commit crimes that result in material misstatements or omissions to a court,” prosecutors working for Durham argued in their submission Thursday night….

  277. “So [h]ow many years should Barr spend behind bars ?”
    Lots and lots, but that leaves the possibility that a future GOP preznit might pardon him.
    OTOH, Trump is reportedly considering firing Barr.
    I say good, I’d be glad to contribute some kerosene.

  278. “So [h]ow many years should Barr spend behind bars ?”
    Lots and lots, but that leaves the possibility that a future GOP preznit might pardon him.
    OTOH, Trump is reportedly considering firing Barr.
    I say good, I’d be glad to contribute some kerosene.

  283. And here we thought the fact that the head of the GSA had finally got her thumb out would mean the teansition would move forward.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/pentagon-blocks-biden-transition-team/2020/12/04/2e7042fa-3656-11eb-a997-1f4c53d2a747_story.html
    What we have is Trump’s new fanboy at Defense replacing people who know what they’re doing with “loyalists.”

    Officials said that rejections relayed this week to the Biden team cited seemingly petty procedural barriers.
    One person said the Pentagon had asked repeatedly for rosters of those who would take part in a visit, lists of topics and estimates of time to be allotted — information that in some cases had been provided at the outset.

    I’m hoping it wil be possible (although no doubt slow and tedious) to boot all these scum out after January 20th.

  284. And here we thought the fact that the head of the GSA had finally got her thumb out would mean the teansition would move forward.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/pentagon-blocks-biden-transition-team/2020/12/04/2e7042fa-3656-11eb-a997-1f4c53d2a747_story.html
    What we have is Trump’s new fanboy at Defense replacing people who know what they’re doing with “loyalists.”

    Officials said that rejections relayed this week to the Biden team cited seemingly petty procedural barriers.
    One person said the Pentagon had asked repeatedly for rosters of those who would take part in a visit, lists of topics and estimates of time to be allotted — information that in some cases had been provided at the outset.

    I’m hoping it wil be possible (although no doubt slow and tedious) to boot all these scum out after January 20th.

  293. It’s hard to take polls seriously.
    Depends on the poll. In Georgia, they (i.e. 538’s average, as displayed here) were actually quite good. As in, within 1% of the vote.
    But more important than the current poll results, I think, is the trend that the graphs show. Here’s hoping it continues for the entire month.

  294. It’s hard to take polls seriously.
    Depends on the poll. In Georgia, they (i.e. 538’s average, as displayed here) were actually quite good. As in, within 1% of the vote.
    But more important than the current poll results, I think, is the trend that the graphs show. Here’s hoping it continues for the entire month.

  297. I just hope Jabbabonk’s campaign against his party’s candidates in Georgia is a smacking success.
    Wouldn’t it be nice, if two winning Dems expressed, in their victory speeches, their gratitude to the not-soon-enough-to-be-past-president for his help in winning their elections?
    “Let it be said that without his help we would not be here to-day. Thank you Donald. After many disappointments you finish your presidency with an act that even your opponents gratefully appreciate!”

  298. I just hope Jabbabonk’s campaign against his party’s candidates in Georgia is a smacking success.
    Wouldn’t it be nice, if two winning Dems expressed, in their victory speeches, their gratitude to the not-soon-enough-to-be-past-president for his help in winning their elections?
    “Let it be said that without his help we would not be here to-day. Thank you Donald. After many disappointments you finish your presidency with an act that even your opponents gratefully appreciate!”

  301. Wouldn’t it be nice, if two winning Dems expressed, in their victory speeches, their gratitude to the not-soon-enough-to-be-past-president for his help in winning their elections?
    Definitely more gracious than my thought. Which was to play “Marching thru Georgia” in celebration. That would, for the rural reactionaries there, be a fitting turnabout on “own the libs”

  302. Wouldn’t it be nice, if two winning Dems expressed, in their victory speeches, their gratitude to the not-soon-enough-to-be-past-president for his help in winning their elections?
    Definitely more gracious than my thought. Which was to play “Marching thru Georgia” in celebration. That would, for the rural reactionaries there, be a fitting turnabout on “own the libs”

  305. Civil War declared:
    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/12/9/2000933/-17-Republican-states-join-Texas-in-asking-the-Supreme-Court-to-overthrow-American-democracy
    Which of the six conservative movement Supreme Court fascist umpires with their own personal anti-American bogus strike zones will make of it a formal Fort Sumter?
    The Republican Party’s long-sought destruction of all legitimate governance in this country is upon us.
    Now, who will avenge their corrupt, malign, totalitarian Evil?

  306. Civil War declared:
    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/12/9/2000933/-17-Republican-states-join-Texas-in-asking-the-Supreme-Court-to-overthrow-American-democracy
    Which of the six conservative movement Supreme Court fascist umpires with their own personal anti-American bogus strike zones will make of it a formal Fort Sumter?
    The Republican Party’s long-sought destruction of all legitimate governance in this country is upon us.
    Now, who will avenge their corrupt, malign, totalitarian Evil?

  307. Two days ago I was struck by the thought that what the Trump GOP most resembles is one of those bands of heretics from medieval Europe that pop up after a plague and wander through the countryside spreading mayhem and unrest.
    Antinomian. Anti-clerical. Violent. Given to excesses.
    Like the Brethren of the Free Spirit or the Savonarola.
    The Libs are just the catholic church, trying to hold shit together but getting in trouble for their indulgences.

  308. Two days ago I was struck by the thought that what the Trump GOP most resembles is one of those bands of heretics from medieval Europe that pop up after a plague and wander through the countryside spreading mayhem and unrest.
    Antinomian. Anti-clerical. Violent. Given to excesses.
    Like the Brethren of the Free Spirit or the Savonarola.
    The Libs are just the catholic church, trying to hold shit together but getting in trouble for their indulgences.

  309. Like the Brethren of the Free Spirit or the Savonarola.
    While it might be comforting that Savonarola was (along with two others, who to choose from?) hanged, and burned, wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girolamo_Savonarola
    has this
    Resisting censorship and exile, the friars of San Marco fostered a cult of “the three martyrs” and venerated Savonarola as a saint. They encouraged women in local convents and surrounding towns to find mystical inspiration in his example, and, by preserving many of his sermons and writings, they helped keep his political as well as his religious ideas alive. The return of the Medici in 1512 ended the Savonarola-inspired republic and intensified pressure against the movement, although both were briefly revived in 1527 when the Medici were once again forced out. In 1530, however, Pope Clement VII (Giulio de’ Medici), with the help of soldiers of the Holy Roman Emperor, restored Medici rule, and Florence became a hereditary dukedom. His devotees, the Piagnoni, were silenced, hunted, tortured, imprisoned and exiled, and the movement, at least as a political force, came to an end.
    however…
    Savonarolan religious ideas found a reception elsewhere. In Germany and Switzerland the early Protestant reformers, most notably Martin Luther himself, read some of the friar’s writings and praised him as a martyr and forerunner whose ideas on faith and grace anticipated Luther’s own doctrine of justification by faith alone. In France many of his works were translated and published and Savonarola came to be regarded as a precursor of evangelical, or Huguenot, reform. Within the Dominican Order Savonarola was repackaged as an innocuous, purely devotional figure (“the evolving image of a Counter-Reformation saintly prelate”), and in this benevolent and unthreatening guise his memory lived on. Philip Neri, founder of the Oratorians, a Florentine who had been educated by the San Marco Dominicans, also defended Savonarola’s memory.
    In the mid-nineteenth century, the “New Piagnoni” found inspiration in the friar’s writings and sermons for the Italian national awakening known as the Risorgimento. By emphasising his political activism over his puritanism and cultural conservatism they restored Savonarola’s voice for radical political change. The venerable Counter Reformation icon ceded to the fiery Renaissance reformer. This somewhat anachronistic image, fortified by much new scholarship, informed the major new biography by Pasquale Villari, who regarded Savonarola’s preaching against Medici despotism as the model for the Italian struggle for liberty and national unification. In Germany, the Catholic theologian and church historian Joseph Schnitzer edited and published contemporary sources which illuminated Savonarola’s career. In 1924 he crowned his vast research with a comprehensive study of Savonarola’s life and times in which he presented the friar as the last best hope of the Catholic Church before the catastrophe of the Protestant Reformation
    I sometimes think that I’d be happier if the Democrats were as organized as the Medici. And if there is a possibility that my great-great-great-great-great grandchildren think of Trump in any other way than a useless POS, I’ll have to urge my kids not to have any offspring. Going to be a long millenium…

  310. Like the Brethren of the Free Spirit or the Savonarola.
    While it might be comforting that Savonarola was (along with two others, who to choose from?) hanged, and burned, wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girolamo_Savonarola
    has this
    Resisting censorship and exile, the friars of San Marco fostered a cult of “the three martyrs” and venerated Savonarola as a saint. They encouraged women in local convents and surrounding towns to find mystical inspiration in his example, and, by preserving many of his sermons and writings, they helped keep his political as well as his religious ideas alive. The return of the Medici in 1512 ended the Savonarola-inspired republic and intensified pressure against the movement, although both were briefly revived in 1527 when the Medici were once again forced out. In 1530, however, Pope Clement VII (Giulio de’ Medici), with the help of soldiers of the Holy Roman Emperor, restored Medici rule, and Florence became a hereditary dukedom. His devotees, the Piagnoni, were silenced, hunted, tortured, imprisoned and exiled, and the movement, at least as a political force, came to an end.
    however…
    Savonarolan religious ideas found a reception elsewhere. In Germany and Switzerland the early Protestant reformers, most notably Martin Luther himself, read some of the friar’s writings and praised him as a martyr and forerunner whose ideas on faith and grace anticipated Luther’s own doctrine of justification by faith alone. In France many of his works were translated and published and Savonarola came to be regarded as a precursor of evangelical, or Huguenot, reform. Within the Dominican Order Savonarola was repackaged as an innocuous, purely devotional figure (“the evolving image of a Counter-Reformation saintly prelate”), and in this benevolent and unthreatening guise his memory lived on. Philip Neri, founder of the Oratorians, a Florentine who had been educated by the San Marco Dominicans, also defended Savonarola’s memory.
    In the mid-nineteenth century, the “New Piagnoni” found inspiration in the friar’s writings and sermons for the Italian national awakening known as the Risorgimento. By emphasising his political activism over his puritanism and cultural conservatism they restored Savonarola’s voice for radical political change. The venerable Counter Reformation icon ceded to the fiery Renaissance reformer. This somewhat anachronistic image, fortified by much new scholarship, informed the major new biography by Pasquale Villari, who regarded Savonarola’s preaching against Medici despotism as the model for the Italian struggle for liberty and national unification. In Germany, the Catholic theologian and church historian Joseph Schnitzer edited and published contemporary sources which illuminated Savonarola’s career. In 1924 he crowned his vast research with a comprehensive study of Savonarola’s life and times in which he presented the friar as the last best hope of the Catholic Church before the catastrophe of the Protestant Reformation
    I sometimes think that I’d be happier if the Democrats were as organized as the Medici. And if there is a possibility that my great-great-great-great-great grandchildren think of Trump in any other way than a useless POS, I’ll have to urge my kids not to have any offspring. Going to be a long millenium…

  311. This is sort of a lemonade from lemons remark, but this
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/bidens-pick-for-the-pentagon-instantly-becomes-a-hot-mess
    might actually be a good thing. I’ve been reading how some people (like Tammy Duckworth in this article) are against granting the waiver on general principles, but I feel that Trump has done so much damage to the civilian-military leadership that it is better to have the waiver granted.
    The article also has detail on the problems with Iraq and ISIS and their possible relation to Austin. I’m sure that people of various persuasions can find things to support their viewpoint, which underlines to me how hard it is going to be to deal with problems.

  312. This is sort of a lemonade from lemons remark, but this
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/bidens-pick-for-the-pentagon-instantly-becomes-a-hot-mess
    might actually be a good thing. I’ve been reading how some people (like Tammy Duckworth in this article) are against granting the waiver on general principles, but I feel that Trump has done so much damage to the civilian-military leadership that it is better to have the waiver granted.
    The article also has detail on the problems with Iraq and ISIS and their possible relation to Austin. I’m sure that people of various persuasions can find things to support their viewpoint, which underlines to me how hard it is going to be to deal with problems.

  313. https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/biden-to-have-entire-wh-east-and-west-wings-showered-with-disinfectant-right-after-trump-leaves
    Besides having that accomplished and having Orkin in as well, considering the caliber of creepy-crawlies who have been infesting the joint for four years, I hope Biden will order the entire building and every single Cabinet building across the country swept for listening and spying devices, which I am certain Trump’s conservative movement fascist scum have planted throughout so their fascist rightwing media and conservative political apparatus can be tipped off to whatever goes on.
    As an accompaniment to purging the entire Trump Republican Deep State thugs who have burrowed their way under the floor boards in the agencies.
    These species of rats don’t abandon ship. They hide out in the hold and gnaw through the ship’s rudder controls, sails, sheets, and the engine room, as well as leaving their droppings in the ship’s larder, the better to poison the crew.
    Frog march them to the sidewalks at gunpoint.
    Strip them naked and conduct cavity searches on each after alerting the media to the show. Scour their homes and vehicles for stolen documents and thumb drives.
    Trump’s sister and an ex-employee have speculated trump will leave the country soon. I doubt it, but make sure the nuclear codes are changed and other state secrets secured, because he has and his traitors have much to sell down the river.
    Rescind all pardons, and while Biden himself should keep his distance once he sets up the investigation apparatus, the entire conservative movement should be hounded, harassed, and prosecuted for their state crimes by investigators designated for that sole task.
    Make the investigation deep enough that the 70 million who “voted” for Trump come under the microscope too.
    Better yet, let the 80 million who vote for Biden, excepting the marginal picayune Hamlets for whom both sides are ever equal and interchangeable, conduct that persecution across the country.
    What to do with them?
    Following Trump’s and Barr’s “ill-advised” move to widen the choices for applying capital punishment at the federal level, Biden should add beheading, skinning alive, disembowelment, screaming immolation at the stake, defenestration, and, since martyrdom is the conservative movement’s ultimate and exquisite aspiration, crucifixion, to the arsenal of punishments.

  314. https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/biden-to-have-entire-wh-east-and-west-wings-showered-with-disinfectant-right-after-trump-leaves
    Besides having that accomplished and having Orkin in as well, considering the caliber of creepy-crawlies who have been infesting the joint for four years, I hope Biden will order the entire building and every single Cabinet building across the country swept for listening and spying devices, which I am certain Trump’s conservative movement fascist scum have planted throughout so their fascist rightwing media and conservative political apparatus can be tipped off to whatever goes on.
    As an accompaniment to purging the entire Trump Republican Deep State thugs who have burrowed their way under the floor boards in the agencies.
    These species of rats don’t abandon ship. They hide out in the hold and gnaw through the ship’s rudder controls, sails, sheets, and the engine room, as well as leaving their droppings in the ship’s larder, the better to poison the crew.
    Frog march them to the sidewalks at gunpoint.
    Strip them naked and conduct cavity searches on each after alerting the media to the show. Scour their homes and vehicles for stolen documents and thumb drives.
    Trump’s sister and an ex-employee have speculated trump will leave the country soon. I doubt it, but make sure the nuclear codes are changed and other state secrets secured, because he has and his traitors have much to sell down the river.
    Rescind all pardons, and while Biden himself should keep his distance once he sets up the investigation apparatus, the entire conservative movement should be hounded, harassed, and prosecuted for their state crimes by investigators designated for that sole task.
    Make the investigation deep enough that the 70 million who “voted” for Trump come under the microscope too.
    Better yet, let the 80 million who vote for Biden, excepting the marginal picayune Hamlets for whom both sides are ever equal and interchangeable, conduct that persecution across the country.
    What to do with them?
    Following Trump’s and Barr’s “ill-advised” move to widen the choices for applying capital punishment at the federal level, Biden should add beheading, skinning alive, disembowelment, screaming immolation at the stake, defenestration, and, since martyrdom is the conservative movement’s ultimate and exquisite aspiration, crucifixion, to the arsenal of punishments.

  315. At least he used the cheap hair dye, though I’ll bet we, the f8cking taxpayers, have been charged for that as well:
    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/12/10/2001050/-Rudy-Giuliani-is-heading-home-feeling-100-better-and-pumped-full-of-drugs-that-you-can-t-get
    Meanwhile:
    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/12/9/2000842/-It-s-not-just-vaccines-poor-planning-has-the-United-States-facing-a-shortage-of-PPE-again
    Hey, privileged fascist murderous conservatives, word to the wise. If you want to avoid Marie Antoinette’s and Mussolini’s and Hitler’s and Ceausescu’s fates, leave a little cake for the rest, asshole filth!
    This is exactly how it happens.
    Die and skip the learning altogether, you hogs!
    We aren’t going to ration Death resources to you animals.

  316. At least he used the cheap hair dye, though I’ll bet we, the f8cking taxpayers, have been charged for that as well:
    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/12/10/2001050/-Rudy-Giuliani-is-heading-home-feeling-100-better-and-pumped-full-of-drugs-that-you-can-t-get
    Meanwhile:
    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/12/9/2000842/-It-s-not-just-vaccines-poor-planning-has-the-United-States-facing-a-shortage-of-PPE-again
    Hey, privileged fascist murderous conservatives, word to the wise. If you want to avoid Marie Antoinette’s and Mussolini’s and Hitler’s and Ceausescu’s fates, leave a little cake for the rest, asshole filth!
    This is exactly how it happens.
    Die and skip the learning altogether, you hogs!
    We aren’t going to ration Death resources to you animals.

  317. Yeah, the sweep for listening devices is a good idea.
    But some that are found should be left intact, to provide Putin with a stream of carefully curated (small batch! free range!) disinformation.
    “…didja hear how that moron Trump was ranting last month? Outed their entire network without realizing it…”

  318. Yeah, the sweep for listening devices is a good idea.
    But some that are found should be left intact, to provide Putin with a stream of carefully curated (small batch! free range!) disinformation.
    “…didja hear how that moron Trump was ranting last month? Outed their entire network without realizing it…”

  319. This is sort of a lemonade from lemons remark, but this might actually be a good thing. I’ve been reading how some people (like Tammy Duckworth in this article) are against granting the waiver on general principles, but I feel that Trump has done so much damage to the civilian-military leadership that it is better to have the waiver granted.
    For exactly that reason, I think a waiver should not be granted. If general Austin was in some way uniquely qualified, it might be another matter. But I’m not seeing any indication that this is the case.
    Instead, I’m seeing arguments that what is particularly needed, in addition to reestablishing the principle of civilian control of the military, is someone who will push the Pentagon away from their established approach and into using more modern technology. As the recent Armenia-Azerbaijan war showed, it’s time to get serious about this. But so far, the Marines appear to be the only service coming close.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/12/08/warfare-is-evolving-fast-we-need-secretary-defense-who-is-an-agent-change/

  320. This is sort of a lemonade from lemons remark, but this might actually be a good thing. I’ve been reading how some people (like Tammy Duckworth in this article) are against granting the waiver on general principles, but I feel that Trump has done so much damage to the civilian-military leadership that it is better to have the waiver granted.
    For exactly that reason, I think a waiver should not be granted. If general Austin was in some way uniquely qualified, it might be another matter. But I’m not seeing any indication that this is the case.
    Instead, I’m seeing arguments that what is particularly needed, in addition to reestablishing the principle of civilian control of the military, is someone who will push the Pentagon away from their established approach and into using more modern technology. As the recent Armenia-Azerbaijan war showed, it’s time to get serious about this. But so far, the Marines appear to be the only service coming close.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/12/08/warfare-is-evolving-fast-we-need-secretary-defense-who-is-an-agent-change/

  323. How ’bout reestablishing civilized, civilian control of civilians as well:
    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/12/10/2001080/–I-don-t-know-how-this-ends-without-violence-and-death-Trump-s-angry-mobs-spark-terrorism-fears
    Subhumans who carry weapons in public, concealed or not, I take as a direct mortal threat to my life, and I should be able to retaliate with immediate deadly force when I witness it in preventive self-defense, just as conservatives have given me leave to do in my “CASTLE”.

  324. How ’bout reestablishing civilized, civilian control of civilians as well:
    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/12/10/2001080/–I-don-t-know-how-this-ends-without-violence-and-death-Trump-s-angry-mobs-spark-terrorism-fears
    Subhumans who carry weapons in public, concealed or not, I take as a direct mortal threat to my life, and I should be able to retaliate with immediate deadly force when I witness it in preventive self-defense, just as conservatives have given me leave to do in my “CASTLE”.

  325. Ted Cruz bursts into flames. And raw sewage turns out have no effect whatsoever on the flames, in fact, conservative-supplied effluent is itself flammable, as with the Balrog:
    https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a34930996/hunter-biden-tax-affairs-investigation/
    Even if Biden does take office and is permitted by citizens-ignited bribed fascist judges to take up residence in the White House, not one republican subhuman in the a*shole formerly known as congress will lift a finger to allow governance.
    America, as we knew it, is a dead piece of sh*t.
    Invite China to nuke the State of Texas, much as Stalin assisted in the defeat of Hitler.
    We can always go back to Cold War with China afterwards.

  326. Ted Cruz bursts into flames. And raw sewage turns out have no effect whatsoever on the flames, in fact, conservative-supplied effluent is itself flammable, as with the Balrog:
    https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a34930996/hunter-biden-tax-affairs-investigation/
    Even if Biden does take office and is permitted by citizens-ignited bribed fascist judges to take up residence in the White House, not one republican subhuman in the a*shole formerly known as congress will lift a finger to allow governance.
    America, as we knew it, is a dead piece of sh*t.
    Invite China to nuke the State of Texas, much as Stalin assisted in the defeat of Hitler.
    We can always go back to Cold War with China afterwards.

  327. What do you have against Texas? After all, it is getting more purple by the day.
    I note also (without comment) that McConnell is from Kentucky.

  328. What do you have against Texas? After all, it is getting more purple by the day.
    I note also (without comment) that McConnell is from Kentucky.

  329. “After all, it is getting more purple by the day.”
    Hmmm, that’s like saying in August 31, 1939 that Nazi Germany was becoming more Jewish by the day, so never fear, Polish Jews.
    “I note also (without comment)”
    McConnell’s security detail duly notes your loaded notice and your dog that did not bark in the night.
    Lurking beckons again, as beckoning always lurks.

  330. “After all, it is getting more purple by the day.”
    Hmmm, that’s like saying in August 31, 1939 that Nazi Germany was becoming more Jewish by the day, so never fear, Polish Jews.
    “I note also (without comment)”
    McConnell’s security detail duly notes your loaded notice and your dog that did not bark in the night.
    Lurking beckons again, as beckoning always lurks.

  331. I was musing about the possibility of, say, CA or NY suing FL, NC, and TX to overturn tRump’s wins in those states based on fraud and voter suppression. I’m sure they could make just as strong a case on fraud as TX has (no evidence is a low bar to get over) and probably a reasonably good case on voter suppression.
    Mess with Texas! (and Florida and North Carolina while you’re at it)

  332. I was musing about the possibility of, say, CA or NY suing FL, NC, and TX to overturn tRump’s wins in those states based on fraud and voter suppression. I’m sure they could make just as strong a case on fraud as TX has (no evidence is a low bar to get over) and probably a reasonably good case on voter suppression.
    Mess with Texas! (and Florida and North Carolina while you’re at it)

  333. wj, by ‘might be a good thing’, I meant the pushback. In the end, I’m pretty pessimistic that one person can change an entire culture, but if the Dems can get to the point where public disagreements are not treated as the end of life as we know it, we might be able to have a more robust debate about some of these things. I realize that the right’s weapon against the left has been the ability to put aside differences to create truely horrific bedfellows, (and I still don’t understand why some of this crap hasn’t collapsed under the weight of its own internal contradictions) but, while I wish the left would get its shit together, it would be nice to instead weaponize diversity. I suppose one can dream.

  334. wj, by ‘might be a good thing’, I meant the pushback. In the end, I’m pretty pessimistic that one person can change an entire culture, but if the Dems can get to the point where public disagreements are not treated as the end of life as we know it, we might be able to have a more robust debate about some of these things. I realize that the right’s weapon against the left has been the ability to put aside differences to create truely horrific bedfellows, (and I still don’t understand why some of this crap hasn’t collapsed under the weight of its own internal contradictions) but, while I wish the left would get its shit together, it would be nice to instead weaponize diversity. I suppose one can dream.

  335. lj, I managed to misread you (obviously) as arguing that Austin as SecDef would be a good thing. Sorry.
    As you say, the arguments his nomination has sparked may be salutary.

  336. lj, I managed to misread you (obviously) as arguing that Austin as SecDef would be a good thing. Sorry.
    As you say, the arguments his nomination has sparked may be salutary.

  337. Suppose you were a congressperson who voted against Mattis four years ago, saying something like “While I deeply respect General Mattis’s service, I will oppose a waiver. Civilian control of our military is a fundamental principle of American democracy, and I will not vote for an exception to this rule.” You’d be pretty upset at Biden for forcing you to choose between your principles and supported your president and his nominee.
    So why has Biden done it? I read his Atlantic article and it didn’t seem to give a reason. Yes, he thinks Austin would do a good job, but that doesn’t address the problem.

  338. Suppose you were a congressperson who voted against Mattis four years ago, saying something like “While I deeply respect General Mattis’s service, I will oppose a waiver. Civilian control of our military is a fundamental principle of American democracy, and I will not vote for an exception to this rule.” You’d be pretty upset at Biden for forcing you to choose between your principles and supported your president and his nominee.
    So why has Biden done it? I read his Atlantic article and it didn’t seem to give a reason. Yes, he thinks Austin would do a good job, but that doesn’t address the problem.

  339. So why has Biden done it [picked Austin]?
    The most plausible explanation I have come across is from 538’s Perry Bacon Jr.**:

    After naming white people as his nominees for two of what are considered the four most important Cabinet positions — Antony Blinken at State and Janet Yellen at Treasury — Biden was pushed strongly to choose a Black person to run either the DOJ or the Pentagon. Biden eventually chose retired Gen. Lloyd Austin, who is Black, to run the Defense Department.

    Perhaps his race, and the need to placate that part of the party, was the critical factor. Although, as Bacon also notes:

    It is not clear that rank-and-file Black or Latino voters particularly care who Biden chooses for these top administration roles, or play a big role in this process. It is also fairly clear that the people Biden and his team are really trying to placate are more center-left establishment Black and Latino elites in the party

    ** Who, FYI, is black himself.

  340. So why has Biden done it [picked Austin]?
    The most plausible explanation I have come across is from 538’s Perry Bacon Jr.**:

    After naming white people as his nominees for two of what are considered the four most important Cabinet positions — Antony Blinken at State and Janet Yellen at Treasury — Biden was pushed strongly to choose a Black person to run either the DOJ or the Pentagon. Biden eventually chose retired Gen. Lloyd Austin, who is Black, to run the Defense Department.

    Perhaps his race, and the need to placate that part of the party, was the critical factor. Although, as Bacon also notes:

    It is not clear that rank-and-file Black or Latino voters particularly care who Biden chooses for these top administration roles, or play a big role in this process. It is also fairly clear that the people Biden and his team are really trying to placate are more center-left establishment Black and Latino elites in the party

    ** Who, FYI, is black himself.

  341. There is nothing shadowy about it.
    These murderers are run directly out of the Trump White House, the RNC and congressional fascist republicans, and funded by top conservative movement donors:
    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/12/9/2001021/-Krebs-lawyer-says-that-a-shadow-group-is-plotting-assassinations-of-complicit-Dems-and-Repubs?pm_source=story_sidebar&pm_medium=web&pm_campaign=recommended
    Their weapons were supplied by the fake Christian America God.
    Some call it a gobshite-given right.
    Others call it gunrunning.

  342. There is nothing shadowy about it.
    These murderers are run directly out of the Trump White House, the RNC and congressional fascist republicans, and funded by top conservative movement donors:
    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/12/9/2001021/-Krebs-lawyer-says-that-a-shadow-group-is-plotting-assassinations-of-complicit-Dems-and-Repubs?pm_source=story_sidebar&pm_medium=web&pm_campaign=recommended
    Their weapons were supplied by the fake Christian America God.
    Some call it a gobshite-given right.
    Others call it gunrunning.

  343. If it is solely optics, that’s not a good thing. If it’s choosing someone who is familiar with the military and can ideally deal with the dumpster fire handed to him, I’m more sympathetic.
    Of course, if a vote against Austin is considered an apostasy from everything that is holy, we are going to have problems. The 538 article is good because it points out that the challenges are basically the price of having a diverse party and it would be better if we just got used to the fact that there are going to be arguments of this sort. I like the line Duckworth gives, that she thinks Austin is good, but she is going to vote on principle. (I’m also using this to evaluate news sources, if they have some rational discussion, cool if they put a headline about how the Dems are going up in flames, screw em)
    I’m also worried that if there isn’t a person from the military, it is going to be taken as an excuse for stone-walling. The Navy has serious problems with its fleet that is supposed to be dealing with China in the Pacific, the problem of white supremacists in the military has been an ongoing issue, I don’t know wtf the space force is supposed to do, but it’s going to be a lot easier for a military guy to pull the plug on it than a civilian.
    I don’t think we have any people in active military here, but if there are and you wouldn’t mind, I’d love to hear your perspective.

  344. If it is solely optics, that’s not a good thing. If it’s choosing someone who is familiar with the military and can ideally deal with the dumpster fire handed to him, I’m more sympathetic.
    Of course, if a vote against Austin is considered an apostasy from everything that is holy, we are going to have problems. The 538 article is good because it points out that the challenges are basically the price of having a diverse party and it would be better if we just got used to the fact that there are going to be arguments of this sort. I like the line Duckworth gives, that she thinks Austin is good, but she is going to vote on principle. (I’m also using this to evaluate news sources, if they have some rational discussion, cool if they put a headline about how the Dems are going up in flames, screw em)
    I’m also worried that if there isn’t a person from the military, it is going to be taken as an excuse for stone-walling. The Navy has serious problems with its fleet that is supposed to be dealing with China in the Pacific, the problem of white supremacists in the military has been an ongoing issue, I don’t know wtf the space force is supposed to do, but it’s going to be a lot easier for a military guy to pull the plug on it than a civilian.
    I don’t think we have any people in active military here, but if there are and you wouldn’t mind, I’d love to hear your perspective.

  345. It is, perhaps, fortunate that it is possible to vote against General Austin strictly on the procedural grounds that he would require a waiver to the requirement that individuals must be retired from the active duty military for at least 7 years before becoming secretary of Defense. There are a bunch of Democrats who were very explicit when the voted for a waiver for General Mattis that they would not be willing to do so a second time. All they have to do is stick to their guns (sorry!) on that. Even if they also have reservations about him for other reasons.

  346. It is, perhaps, fortunate that it is possible to vote against General Austin strictly on the procedural grounds that he would require a waiver to the requirement that individuals must be retired from the active duty military for at least 7 years before becoming secretary of Defense. There are a bunch of Democrats who were very explicit when the voted for a waiver for General Mattis that they would not be willing to do so a second time. All they have to do is stick to their guns (sorry!) on that. Even if they also have reservations about him for other reasons.

  347. I’m sure Austin is a good guy. That said, it is in our interest to maintain and reinforce the principle of civilian control of the military.
    Biden should look for someone else. IMO.

  348. I’m sure Austin is a good guy. That said, it is in our interest to maintain and reinforce the principle of civilian control of the military.
    Biden should look for someone else. IMO.

  349. Chuck Wendig has hit the f@kking nail on the f@kking head:
    http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2020/12/11/this-grievous-wound/
    ——————
    “It’s not enough that Trump won’t be successful. And it’s likely he won’t be (though this is 2020, so who the fuck knows what hellshow could happen in the next three weeks). It’s that he’s convinced a not inconsiderable portion of this country that he’s right. He probably knows he won’t get back in the White House, at least in 2021. But they don’t know that. He probably knows he didn’t win. But they don’t. They’ve bought the lie. They’ve embraced their cognitive dissonance so hard it’s become a part of them — the only good way out of a hole is to quite digging and start climbing, but then you have to admit, oops, I fell into a hole of my own making, and that’s not something people like to admit. Easier instead to dig down, down, down, to make it look like, I know what I’m doing, I’ve been doing this all along, this is alllllll part of the plan, see you later, Surface-Dwellers, I’m King of the Hole, fuck you.
    So utterly complete is this violent attack on information, on truth, on fact, on process and democracy and science, on education and expertise that… some people are going to be really hard to bring back. They may not come back. We don’t have a National Deprogrammer. We don’t have fairness in media. We don’t have the gall or gumption to fight mis/disinformation the way the other side has fought actual information.
    As it turns out, our democracy is held together by one thing, and one thing only:
    A loose, flexible agreement of ideas.”
    —-
    Just one short piece of an epic.

  350. Chuck Wendig has hit the f@kking nail on the f@kking head:
    http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2020/12/11/this-grievous-wound/
    ——————
    “It’s not enough that Trump won’t be successful. And it’s likely he won’t be (though this is 2020, so who the fuck knows what hellshow could happen in the next three weeks). It’s that he’s convinced a not inconsiderable portion of this country that he’s right. He probably knows he won’t get back in the White House, at least in 2021. But they don’t know that. He probably knows he didn’t win. But they don’t. They’ve bought the lie. They’ve embraced their cognitive dissonance so hard it’s become a part of them — the only good way out of a hole is to quite digging and start climbing, but then you have to admit, oops, I fell into a hole of my own making, and that’s not something people like to admit. Easier instead to dig down, down, down, to make it look like, I know what I’m doing, I’ve been doing this all along, this is alllllll part of the plan, see you later, Surface-Dwellers, I’m King of the Hole, fuck you.
    So utterly complete is this violent attack on information, on truth, on fact, on process and democracy and science, on education and expertise that… some people are going to be really hard to bring back. They may not come back. We don’t have a National Deprogrammer. We don’t have fairness in media. We don’t have the gall or gumption to fight mis/disinformation the way the other side has fought actual information.
    As it turns out, our democracy is held together by one thing, and one thing only:
    A loose, flexible agreement of ideas.”
    —-
    Just one short piece of an epic.

  351. The utter crapshow we are now being subjected to is the most despicable display I’ve seen in my entire lifetime. We’re not all the way to Rwanda, but you can see it from here.
    The (R) party and their base has not only lost all credibility as good faith participants in our common public life, they have embraced that position and in fact wear it as a badge of pride.
    If they can’t win on the merits they’ll tear it the hell down. Intentionally and with vulgar zeal.
    I’m done with them. I’m not interested in civil wars, I wish them no ill, I have no interest in or desire to harm any of them. I’m not shooting anybody, that’s their game.
    But they’ve made their intentions very clear, and their intentions do not overlap with mine.
    My expectation is that Biden will take office in January, and that the (R)’s and their base will do everything in their power to FUBAR his time in office. I’ll do what I can to frustrate them in that effort.
    And that’s how it’s gonna be.
    If they want to take this garbage any further than the pitiable clown show they’ve put on so far, then I guess sh*t will get somewhat more hectic. Let’s hope they don’t go there.
    In any case, I’m not investing one ounce of my time or effort in trying to find “common ground” with them. Whether such a thing could actually exist or not.
    If and when they wake the fnck up I’m happy to revisit all of that. They might or they might not. But I just don’t have the patience anymore to deal with this kind of willful insanity.
    We don’t share a country, as far as I can tell. We don’t really share a reality, as far as I can tell.
    It’ll take a hell of a lot to walk that back, and as far as I can tell it’s on them to make that happen. I have no great expectations there.

  352. The utter crapshow we are now being subjected to is the most despicable display I’ve seen in my entire lifetime. We’re not all the way to Rwanda, but you can see it from here.
    The (R) party and their base has not only lost all credibility as good faith participants in our common public life, they have embraced that position and in fact wear it as a badge of pride.
    If they can’t win on the merits they’ll tear it the hell down. Intentionally and with vulgar zeal.
    I’m done with them. I’m not interested in civil wars, I wish them no ill, I have no interest in or desire to harm any of them. I’m not shooting anybody, that’s their game.
    But they’ve made their intentions very clear, and their intentions do not overlap with mine.
    My expectation is that Biden will take office in January, and that the (R)’s and their base will do everything in their power to FUBAR his time in office. I’ll do what I can to frustrate them in that effort.
    And that’s how it’s gonna be.
    If they want to take this garbage any further than the pitiable clown show they’ve put on so far, then I guess sh*t will get somewhat more hectic. Let’s hope they don’t go there.
    In any case, I’m not investing one ounce of my time or effort in trying to find “common ground” with them. Whether such a thing could actually exist or not.
    If and when they wake the fnck up I’m happy to revisit all of that. They might or they might not. But I just don’t have the patience anymore to deal with this kind of willful insanity.
    We don’t share a country, as far as I can tell. We don’t really share a reality, as far as I can tell.
    It’ll take a hell of a lot to walk that back, and as far as I can tell it’s on them to make that happen. I have no great expectations there.

  353. I’m not fond of tacking minimally-related bits onto the defense bill (which the Senate passed today by a veto-proof margin**). But I’m glad to see this being done somehow.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2020/12/11/anonymous-shell-company-us-ban/
    Probably play hob with Trump’s business model, however.
    ** 20 bucks says Trump will abandon his veto threats and sign it. Because the alternative would be to have his veto overridden. And who wants to be a loser like that?

  354. I’m not fond of tacking minimally-related bits onto the defense bill (which the Senate passed today by a veto-proof margin**). But I’m glad to see this being done somehow.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2020/12/11/anonymous-shell-company-us-ban/
    Probably play hob with Trump’s business model, however.
    ** 20 bucks says Trump will abandon his veto threats and sign it. Because the alternative would be to have his veto overridden. And who wants to be a loser like that?

  355. Ante upped, as the armed, threatening scum have done every step of the way, win, lose, or draw for the past 40 years:
    https://www.mediamatters.org/rush-limbaugh/talk-secession-and-civil-war-increasing-far-right
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/new-nevada-and-new-california-ask-old-supreme-court-to-overturn-election
    It’s not our choice whether or not savage violence engulfs this country.
    It’s theirs and they are choosing to be wiped off the face of the Earth.
    We’ve no more ground to give.
    It stops bloody now.
    Limbaugh is not an entertainer. Trump is not a clown. America is not a reality show for the corrupt and thoroughly anti-American, anti-human conservative movement to hollow out for the prize money defrauded from the brainwashed rubes by dyspeptic, lying intellectual poseurs in their infected, infested ranks.
    They are traitorous, terrorist subhuman Evil.

  356. Ante upped, as the armed, threatening scum have done every step of the way, win, lose, or draw for the past 40 years:
    https://www.mediamatters.org/rush-limbaugh/talk-secession-and-civil-war-increasing-far-right
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/new-nevada-and-new-california-ask-old-supreme-court-to-overturn-election
    It’s not our choice whether or not savage violence engulfs this country.
    It’s theirs and they are choosing to be wiped off the face of the Earth.
    We’ve no more ground to give.
    It stops bloody now.
    Limbaugh is not an entertainer. Trump is not a clown. America is not a reality show for the corrupt and thoroughly anti-American, anti-human conservative movement to hollow out for the prize money defrauded from the brainwashed rubes by dyspeptic, lying intellectual poseurs in their infected, infested ranks.
    They are traitorous, terrorist subhuman Evil.

  357. Clearly we need to divvy up New America (aka Somalia) into parts like New Michigan and New Georgia and New Dakota. Then those who have drunk the kool-aid will have somewhere to go that’s safe from the scary libs.

  358. Clearly we need to divvy up New America (aka Somalia) into parts like New Michigan and New Georgia and New Dakota. Then those who have drunk the kool-aid will have somewhere to go that’s safe from the scary libs.

  361. Then those who have drunk the kool-aid will have somewhere to go that’s safe from the scary libs.
    I would find that unfortunate, but if that’s what they want then as I say go with god and go with my blessing. Carve out your rural nirvanas or whatever the heck it is you think is going to make you happy and live your life.
    We can probably fit 100 stars on the blue field of the flag. Go for it.

  362. Then those who have drunk the kool-aid will have somewhere to go that’s safe from the scary libs.
    I would find that unfortunate, but if that’s what they want then as I say go with god and go with my blessing. Carve out your rural nirvanas or whatever the heck it is you think is going to make you happy and live your life.
    We can probably fit 100 stars on the blue field of the flag. Go for it.

  363. But not with 2 new senators for each new loonitarian state!
    Let them secede but only after THEY have paid for the wall the rest of the country will have to build around these duh-topias. They will be allowed air travel between those entities/territories and with countries abroad that will accept it but it shall be a West Berlin scenario in reverse.

  364. But not with 2 new senators for each new loonitarian state!
    Let them secede but only after THEY have paid for the wall the rest of the country will have to build around these duh-topias. They will be allowed air travel between those entities/territories and with countries abroad that will accept it but it shall be a West Berlin scenario in reverse.

  365. I’m all in favor of the Red States seceding. They’re traitors, one and all. Plus they’re freeloaders, draining away more tax dollars than they pay in, while insisting on how self-reliant and self-made they are.
    But before they go, I want the Biden Administration to rip out every bit of infrastructure and remove every military base, supply chain, and vendor from the departing states.

  366. I’m all in favor of the Red States seceding. They’re traitors, one and all. Plus they’re freeloaders, draining away more tax dollars than they pay in, while insisting on how self-reliant and self-made they are.
    But before they go, I want the Biden Administration to rip out every bit of infrastructure and remove every military base, supply chain, and vendor from the departing states.

  367. C’mon NASA, hurry up with that “B-Ark”, the MAGAts want to leave.
    Oh, all that safety certification red tape can be skipped also, too.

  368. C’mon NASA, hurry up with that “B-Ark”, the MAGAts want to leave.
    Oh, all that safety certification red tape can be skipped also, too.

  371. I personally cop to the addiction-to-vengeance diagnosis put forward by the Yale University lecturer cited in Nigel’s link.
    But like Keith Richards, I fully plan to live long enough through my addiction to see the other side, once the domestic enemies of America, the entire conservative movement right down to its parking valets, are made to take personal responsibility for their sedition, corruption, and anti-government insurrection, and prosecuted and punished, including by way of the newly expansive Federal death penalty, whether it is applied judicially or extra-judicially.
    I’m no Abraham Lincoln (take a moment to chuckle, snort ruefully, if you must), but Abe was, and despite all of the lofty talk about “the angels of our better natures”, he prosecuted bloody vengeance on the traitorous, racist, murderous Confederacy whose monstrous collective addiction nearly sundered the country.
    https://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jala/2629860.0017.105?rgn=main;view=fulltext
    Lincoln wept inconsolably after receiving the news that the beloved brother of his wife had been slaughtered at Chickamauga by a piece of metal in the neck, but that didn’t stop him from ordering up another case of whiskey for the indominable, ruthless Ulysses S. Grant to continue the slaughter.
    Maybe if Lincoln had lived but for the evil act of Republican Party (had he lived, he would have followed the southern racist Democrats into the conservative movement southern strategy, which was more than strategy; it was pure hateful, additive racism) operative Booth, he could have, like Tony Soprano and other Mafia-types characterized in show biz, undertaken some therapeutic analysis under the guidance of a psychotherapist to “work through” and “come to terms” with the evil acts he was forced into (it was one side; but he took the Confederacy’s whining, self-victimized-preening accusation that “both sides do it” to heart and f*cking did it better, but seems not finally, as needs to happen now)
    For Lincoln’s pains, here we are, but he is not, because John Wilkes Booth (well, and the fact of natural mortality, which was cut short), the true founder of the contemporary Republican Party, even after and ever after, carried his malignant addiction into the theater and shot Lincoln in the back of the head.
    And Booth’s addiction is what we are dealing with the this shite conservative movement in the here and now, with the difference that Trump, unlike the slave owners and Confederate Generals, doesn’t even pretend a bogus patina of “Honor”.
    But this, from Nigel’s article:
    “Which is why there also must be compassion for Trump. One of the lessons learned with substance addiction is that it is a disease, a brain and behavioral disorder, not a moral failure, and shaming and punishment do not work. Attacking Trump for his retaliatory behavior only fuels it by making him feel more aggrieved.”
    Awwww. Aggrieved, is he?
    ….. is just the kind of therapeutic spinelessness Trump and his conservative movement thugs are counting on from us (the wider “us”, not the OBWI “us”). These thug filth contemptuously spit on that approach, and always have, and the minute the therapist turns her back, they will stab it.
    Trump, like the real Mafia whom he models himself after (Hell, they built the trump tower and the floors are not level, the windows might as well be screens and the facade is warping the entire structure, is more likely to buy the psychiatry business out with an offer that can’t be refused, merge with his garbage business and then whack Freud, Jung, and Woody Allen’s therapist, while playing the victim himself.
    Trump and the filthy Republicans are mainlining their addictive wares into the entire body politic purposefully and malignantly as we speak, and it may be a colossal, but mere grift, but so is the pusher man’s in any urban alley.
    And so was Hitler’s, the most sincere grifting punk in history.
    Take a page from the grifting, grasping fake big-haired God-bothering evangelical, their accountants feverishly reinvesting the collection plate take into legitimate pool-boy pursuits, scum who lay their hands on Trump in the Oval Office, and before him Bush II and Reagan, and let’s learn to use the term “Evil” for the enemies of America, and for that matter England.
    OK, so a bit of fractured fairy tale history, but where else can you get references to Keith Richards, Freud, Tony Soprano, Jung, Lincoln, Woody Allen, Booth, and Grant in one rant.
    I save Rocky Colavito and Pete Best for some later eruption, having already used John Jay and Erick Erickson, God save that queen.
    To summarize, I put out rat poison to kill rats, not to somehow bring about, by ideological accretion, some semblance of universal health coverage.

  372. I personally cop to the addiction-to-vengeance diagnosis put forward by the Yale University lecturer cited in Nigel’s link.
    But like Keith Richards, I fully plan to live long enough through my addiction to see the other side, once the domestic enemies of America, the entire conservative movement right down to its parking valets, are made to take personal responsibility for their sedition, corruption, and anti-government insurrection, and prosecuted and punished, including by way of the newly expansive Federal death penalty, whether it is applied judicially or extra-judicially.
    I’m no Abraham Lincoln (take a moment to chuckle, snort ruefully, if you must), but Abe was, and despite all of the lofty talk about “the angels of our better natures”, he prosecuted bloody vengeance on the traitorous, racist, murderous Confederacy whose monstrous collective addiction nearly sundered the country.
    https://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jala/2629860.0017.105?rgn=main;view=fulltext
    Lincoln wept inconsolably after receiving the news that the beloved brother of his wife had been slaughtered at Chickamauga by a piece of metal in the neck, but that didn’t stop him from ordering up another case of whiskey for the indominable, ruthless Ulysses S. Grant to continue the slaughter.
    Maybe if Lincoln had lived but for the evil act of Republican Party (had he lived, he would have followed the southern racist Democrats into the conservative movement southern strategy, which was more than strategy; it was pure hateful, additive racism) operative Booth, he could have, like Tony Soprano and other Mafia-types characterized in show biz, undertaken some therapeutic analysis under the guidance of a psychotherapist to “work through” and “come to terms” with the evil acts he was forced into (it was one side; but he took the Confederacy’s whining, self-victimized-preening accusation that “both sides do it” to heart and f*cking did it better, but seems not finally, as needs to happen now)
    For Lincoln’s pains, here we are, but he is not, because John Wilkes Booth (well, and the fact of natural mortality, which was cut short), the true founder of the contemporary Republican Party, even after and ever after, carried his malignant addiction into the theater and shot Lincoln in the back of the head.
    And Booth’s addiction is what we are dealing with the this shite conservative movement in the here and now, with the difference that Trump, unlike the slave owners and Confederate Generals, doesn’t even pretend a bogus patina of “Honor”.
    But this, from Nigel’s article:
    “Which is why there also must be compassion for Trump. One of the lessons learned with substance addiction is that it is a disease, a brain and behavioral disorder, not a moral failure, and shaming and punishment do not work. Attacking Trump for his retaliatory behavior only fuels it by making him feel more aggrieved.”
    Awwww. Aggrieved, is he?
    ….. is just the kind of therapeutic spinelessness Trump and his conservative movement thugs are counting on from us (the wider “us”, not the OBWI “us”). These thug filth contemptuously spit on that approach, and always have, and the minute the therapist turns her back, they will stab it.
    Trump, like the real Mafia whom he models himself after (Hell, they built the trump tower and the floors are not level, the windows might as well be screens and the facade is warping the entire structure, is more likely to buy the psychiatry business out with an offer that can’t be refused, merge with his garbage business and then whack Freud, Jung, and Woody Allen’s therapist, while playing the victim himself.
    Trump and the filthy Republicans are mainlining their addictive wares into the entire body politic purposefully and malignantly as we speak, and it may be a colossal, but mere grift, but so is the pusher man’s in any urban alley.
    And so was Hitler’s, the most sincere grifting punk in history.
    Take a page from the grifting, grasping fake big-haired God-bothering evangelical, their accountants feverishly reinvesting the collection plate take into legitimate pool-boy pursuits, scum who lay their hands on Trump in the Oval Office, and before him Bush II and Reagan, and let’s learn to use the term “Evil” for the enemies of America, and for that matter England.
    OK, so a bit of fractured fairy tale history, but where else can you get references to Keith Richards, Freud, Tony Soprano, Jung, Lincoln, Woody Allen, Booth, and Grant in one rant.
    I save Rocky Colavito and Pete Best for some later eruption, having already used John Jay and Erick Erickson, God save that queen.
    To summarize, I put out rat poison to kill rats, not to somehow bring about, by ideological accretion, some semblance of universal health coverage.

  377. Well, well, how interesting (from that last link) on the 126 House Republicans who sought to overturn the 2020 presidential election, including the minority leader, Rep. Kevin McCarthy:
    Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment:
    No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.
    I mean it’s sort of obvious why Pelosi can’t really do it under current circumstances, but on the other hand it is valuable to analyse why (norms having been trashed, anti-democratic behaviour IOKIYAR having been indulged in without inhibition), and try to come to a conclusion about how to reintroduce the concept of such rules and norms.

  378. Well, well, how interesting (from that last link) on the 126 House Republicans who sought to overturn the 2020 presidential election, including the minority leader, Rep. Kevin McCarthy:
    Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment:
    No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.
    I mean it’s sort of obvious why Pelosi can’t really do it under current circumstances, but on the other hand it is valuable to analyse why (norms having been trashed, anti-democratic behaviour IOKIYAR having been indulged in without inhibition), and try to come to a conclusion about how to reintroduce the concept of such rules and norms.

  379. engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.
    They haven’t (so far) engaged in insurrection or rebellion. At least as I understand the terms. And the final criteria would require demonstrating that Trump, or in this case the AG of Texas et al, qualify as “enemies of the United States”. Mind you, I think they have inarguably demonstrated hostility to, not to mention contempt for, our system of governance. But proving it sufficiently for this purpose would be tricky.

  380. engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.
    They haven’t (so far) engaged in insurrection or rebellion. At least as I understand the terms. And the final criteria would require demonstrating that Trump, or in this case the AG of Texas et al, qualify as “enemies of the United States”. Mind you, I think they have inarguably demonstrated hostility to, not to mention contempt for, our system of governance. But proving it sufficiently for this purpose would be tricky.

  381. Well, wj, I don’t claim it as an absolute match, but there’s no doubt at all that their attempts to completely subvert American democracy have given tremendous comfort to the enemies of America (Russia, China, other dictatorships), and I suppose aid as well, in that America can hardly lecture anybody else about democracy after this (even to the limited extent they could before).
    And (although of course they are not House Republicans) after the Arizona Republican Party’s official Twitter account on Monday night shared a post from an activist with an organization called “Stop the Steal” that has protested election results:
    “I am willing to give my life for this fight,” Alexander wrote. When sharing his comment, the GOP asked followers: “He is. Are you?”
    it’s all teetering on the very edge, it seems to me. And how many of the House republicans who supported the absurd Texas motion to the SCOTUS have now acknowledged the Biden win?
    My question really is: why do 83% (or thereabouts) of Republicans not see that these attempts to claim an election was fraudulent, and overturn its lawful result, are a subversion of democracy? We have talked before about people living in different versions of reality – I personally have been banging on about it here and elsewhere (no doubt very boringly) for years. When it means that your elections are not safe anymore, despite widespread bipartisan confirmation of their fairness, how can this situation begin to be reversed?

  382. Well, wj, I don’t claim it as an absolute match, but there’s no doubt at all that their attempts to completely subvert American democracy have given tremendous comfort to the enemies of America (Russia, China, other dictatorships), and I suppose aid as well, in that America can hardly lecture anybody else about democracy after this (even to the limited extent they could before).
    And (although of course they are not House Republicans) after the Arizona Republican Party’s official Twitter account on Monday night shared a post from an activist with an organization called “Stop the Steal” that has protested election results:
    “I am willing to give my life for this fight,” Alexander wrote. When sharing his comment, the GOP asked followers: “He is. Are you?”
    it’s all teetering on the very edge, it seems to me. And how many of the House republicans who supported the absurd Texas motion to the SCOTUS have now acknowledged the Biden win?
    My question really is: why do 83% (or thereabouts) of Republicans not see that these attempts to claim an election was fraudulent, and overturn its lawful result, are a subversion of democracy? We have talked before about people living in different versions of reality – I personally have been banging on about it here and elsewhere (no doubt very boringly) for years. When it means that your elections are not safe anymore, despite widespread bipartisan confirmation of their fairness, how can this situation begin to be reversed?

  385. Oh yes, and my 05.24 to wj was posted before I read the statement from the Chairman of the Texas GOP in which he says, inter alia, This decision establishes a precedent which says States can violate the US constitution [sic] and not be held accountable. This decision will have far reaching consequences for the future of our constitutional republic. Perhaps law-abiding states should bond together and form a Union of states that will abide by the constitution [sic].
    No doubt, wj, you regard that “perhaps” as carrying the load for not regarding this as a call for secession? Or does moving for secession not count as insurrection?
    FWIW, I love the content of “Biden’s” letter to Texas, setting out the new arrangments, in JDT’s first Kos link.

  386. Oh yes, and my 05.24 to wj was posted before I read the statement from the Chairman of the Texas GOP in which he says, inter alia, This decision establishes a precedent which says States can violate the US constitution [sic] and not be held accountable. This decision will have far reaching consequences for the future of our constitutional republic. Perhaps law-abiding states should bond together and form a Union of states that will abide by the constitution [sic].
    No doubt, wj, you regard that “perhaps” as carrying the load for not regarding this as a call for secession? Or does moving for secession not count as insurrection?
    FWIW, I love the content of “Biden’s” letter to Texas, setting out the new arrangments, in JDT’s first Kos link.

  387. But this, from Nigel’s article:
    “Which is why there also must be compassion for Trump.
    After he’s gone to jail.
    Note that addicts will do anything for their next fix. The article offers a diagnosis; treatment is a very much more difficult matter.

  388. But this, from Nigel’s article:
    “Which is why there also must be compassion for Trump.
    After he’s gone to jail.
    Note that addicts will do anything for their next fix. The article offers a diagnosis; treatment is a very much more difficult matter.

  389. why do 83% (or thereabouts) of Republicans not see that these attempts to claim an election was fraudulent, and overturn its lawful result, are a subversion of democracy?
    I suspect that part of it is that pretty much everybody that they know voted for Trump. So it’s hard for them to believe so many people voted for Biden.
    We saw something pretty much identical in 1972. The quote (attributed, perhaps inaccurately, to Pauline Keil) was “How could Nixon have won? Nobody I know voted for him.”
    Suppose you lived in central Asia, and the biggest body of water you or your friends had ever seen was the Aral Sea. How credible would you find stories about an “ocean”? That’s where they’re frequently coming from.
    To anyone who actually knows people with a wide variety of views, or even just knows first hand how an election is administered, the allegations of fraud are simply not credible. But mostly they don’t have that either.

  390. why do 83% (or thereabouts) of Republicans not see that these attempts to claim an election was fraudulent, and overturn its lawful result, are a subversion of democracy?
    I suspect that part of it is that pretty much everybody that they know voted for Trump. So it’s hard for them to believe so many people voted for Biden.
    We saw something pretty much identical in 1972. The quote (attributed, perhaps inaccurately, to Pauline Keil) was “How could Nixon have won? Nobody I know voted for him.”
    Suppose you lived in central Asia, and the biggest body of water you or your friends had ever seen was the Aral Sea. How credible would you find stories about an “ocean”? That’s where they’re frequently coming from.
    To anyone who actually knows people with a wide variety of views, or even just knows first hand how an election is administered, the allegations of fraud are simply not credible. But mostly they don’t have that either.

  391. Perhaps Texas could have a TEXIT referendum.
    I hear they’ll get MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of extra dollars for their NHS.
    Made as much sense as the first version.

  392. Perhaps Texas could have a TEXIT referendum.
    I hear they’ll get MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of extra dollars for their NHS.
    Made as much sense as the first version.

  393. GftNC, regarding the comment from the Chairman of the Texas GOP, yes that sounds like a call for secession. (And ignorance of how that worked out the last time it was tried.) But he isn’t someone covered under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. That is, he isn’t an official of the State of Texas, let alone of the United States.

  394. GftNC, regarding the comment from the Chairman of the Texas GOP, yes that sounds like a call for secession. (And ignorance of how that worked out the last time it was tried.) But he isn’t someone covered under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. That is, he isn’t an official of the State of Texas, let alone of the United States.

  395. “how can this situation begin to be reversed?”
    The conservative movement has gunned up and has been doing so for decades, with of course, big “profit-sharing” for the NRA grifters and the so-called right-wing media who have been ginning up the mob’s victimhood for this very eventuality.
    They have no fear that liberals … Democrats .. will respond in kind.
    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/12/12/2001623/-Democrat-attacked-bloodied-for-holding-Ossoff-Warnock-signs-at-Democratic-Georgia-GOTV-rally?pm_source=story_sidebar&pm_medium=web&pm_campaign=recommended
    We will, of course, wait and see the whites of the eyes of the final criteria because that is what decent people do under the rule of law.
    It is tricky to prove things sufficiently for the purpose.
    My God, that could be Trump’s epitaph, when you consider his legal “training” at the feet of Roy Cohn.
    But, that’s what the trump conservative movement, which now has absorbed the utterly complicit republican party (they relent willingly and with relish) into its suppurating, acid flesh is counting on.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOqZC-DXvk4&t=56s
    That we await final criteria, like normal people, as infinite instances of penultimate criteria pointing directly to their final ferocious gambit reveal themselves daily, assumes a normative rule of law the conservative movement no longer observes in pursuit of its malign intent.
    Neville Chamberlain, who Winston Churchill greatly admired for his domestic achievements, nevertheless had to cool his heels as Hitler invaded Austria, Czechoslovakia, and Poland under Chamberlain’s, because he was a good man, cautiously optimistic assessment of some better nature yet to emerge from the Nazi leadership, who in turn took every opportunity to up the ante to have one over on the Brits.
    Now, all of these historical references are hilariously melodramatic even as they fall from my lips, but if you spend any time reading self-important right wing cant, for example, The American Conservative, and Redstate back in the day, they lard their hatred of liberals and Democrats, their “good friends” on the other side of the aisle (in between spittoon aiming), with comparisons to Hitler, Stalin, Castro, Mao, North Korea, mass murderers, child molesters, Mordor, the Devil and his minions, and, lordy, Hillary Clinton, who actually only had THE flu, not the pandemic Covid-19, and chose not to be a genocidal, murderous superspreader unlike just about every name fucking conservative in this catastrophe of a polity.
    But you know that.
    What, we think they don’t mean it?
    Their criteria, such as they are, are being whittled down daily to what seems to be the only alternative they have left themselves …
    violence.
    The White House Lie Secretary, that smug, fake Christian shrew, actually said today that the Supreme Court, monopolized by her own poisonous political party, may have agreed with Texas’ (and every Texan, even the left liberals in that state, is now politically branded by this event) utterly dog shit lawsuit, but for the “technicality” that the Court refused to hear the case.
    She said it was tricky to prove it sufficiently for the purpose, but in her own words, and contra George Carlin, conservatives actually do have their own words and alternative facts of which no one else is privy to the meaning.
    Doesn’t sound to me like there are many criteria left to wait and see, but the weekend is getting away me from so see ya.

  396. “how can this situation begin to be reversed?”
    The conservative movement has gunned up and has been doing so for decades, with of course, big “profit-sharing” for the NRA grifters and the so-called right-wing media who have been ginning up the mob’s victimhood for this very eventuality.
    They have no fear that liberals … Democrats .. will respond in kind.
    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/12/12/2001623/-Democrat-attacked-bloodied-for-holding-Ossoff-Warnock-signs-at-Democratic-Georgia-GOTV-rally?pm_source=story_sidebar&pm_medium=web&pm_campaign=recommended
    We will, of course, wait and see the whites of the eyes of the final criteria because that is what decent people do under the rule of law.
    It is tricky to prove things sufficiently for the purpose.
    My God, that could be Trump’s epitaph, when you consider his legal “training” at the feet of Roy Cohn.
    But, that’s what the trump conservative movement, which now has absorbed the utterly complicit republican party (they relent willingly and with relish) into its suppurating, acid flesh is counting on.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOqZC-DXvk4&t=56s
    That we await final criteria, like normal people, as infinite instances of penultimate criteria pointing directly to their final ferocious gambit reveal themselves daily, assumes a normative rule of law the conservative movement no longer observes in pursuit of its malign intent.
    Neville Chamberlain, who Winston Churchill greatly admired for his domestic achievements, nevertheless had to cool his heels as Hitler invaded Austria, Czechoslovakia, and Poland under Chamberlain’s, because he was a good man, cautiously optimistic assessment of some better nature yet to emerge from the Nazi leadership, who in turn took every opportunity to up the ante to have one over on the Brits.
    Now, all of these historical references are hilariously melodramatic even as they fall from my lips, but if you spend any time reading self-important right wing cant, for example, The American Conservative, and Redstate back in the day, they lard their hatred of liberals and Democrats, their “good friends” on the other side of the aisle (in between spittoon aiming), with comparisons to Hitler, Stalin, Castro, Mao, North Korea, mass murderers, child molesters, Mordor, the Devil and his minions, and, lordy, Hillary Clinton, who actually only had THE flu, not the pandemic Covid-19, and chose not to be a genocidal, murderous superspreader unlike just about every name fucking conservative in this catastrophe of a polity.
    But you know that.
    What, we think they don’t mean it?
    Their criteria, such as they are, are being whittled down daily to what seems to be the only alternative they have left themselves …
    violence.
    The White House Lie Secretary, that smug, fake Christian shrew, actually said today that the Supreme Court, monopolized by her own poisonous political party, may have agreed with Texas’ (and every Texan, even the left liberals in that state, is now politically branded by this event) utterly dog shit lawsuit, but for the “technicality” that the Court refused to hear the case.
    She said it was tricky to prove it sufficiently for the purpose, but in her own words, and contra George Carlin, conservatives actually do have their own words and alternative facts of which no one else is privy to the meaning.
    Doesn’t sound to me like there are many criteria left to wait and see, but the weekend is getting away me from so see ya.

  397. The conservative movement has gunned up and has been doing so for decades
    . . .
    They have no fear that liberals . . . Democrats . . . will respond in kind.
    The bad news, for them, is that the military is far better armed still. And made up of people who typically take their oath to defend the Constitution very seriously. Yeah, they’d get a few military, and ex-military, types. But then, so did the Confederacy. It didn’t change the outcome.

  398. The conservative movement has gunned up and has been doing so for decades
    . . .
    They have no fear that liberals . . . Democrats . . . will respond in kind.
    The bad news, for them, is that the military is far better armed still. And made up of people who typically take their oath to defend the Constitution very seriously. Yeah, they’d get a few military, and ex-military, types. But then, so did the Confederacy. It didn’t change the outcome.

  403. It’s worth keeping in mind that some of the folks we’re talking about think that taking pictures of themselves with a gun pointed at their crotch is a persuasive rhetorical tactic.
    Just saying.

  404. It’s worth keeping in mind that some of the folks we’re talking about think that taking pictures of themselves with a gun pointed at their crotch is a persuasive rhetorical tactic.
    Just saying.

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