280 thoughts on “What could I possibly have to add?”

  1. Okay, I’ll add something from a Dahlia Lithwick column:

    Consider that if you are George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, or Christian Cooper, you are asked to move through the world not only accountable to everyone around you for what you do, how you jog, where you sleep, and how you speak, but also to be somehow responsible for everything you don’t do as well. As my friend Aymann Ismail wrote this week, if you are an American of color, you spend your days smiling to disarm people who may fear you irrationally, or crossing streets to avoid alarming people who may think you want to harm them. In America, if you are a person of color, you must possess so capacious an imagination that you need not simply control your every word and move and act so as to avoid looking like you want to do harm, but you must also anticipate how anyone and everyone will interpret your words and behaviors, because it is their perception that matters. R. Eric Thomas says that if you are a person of color, what you think is immaterial: “You learn, at some point, how to perform being non-threatening and you learn that often it matters less how well you perform and more whether the audience for said performance believes it. Or wants to believe it. Or is in the mood to believe it.”
    Ah, but if you are a white man, armed with, say, a bazooka, which you believe to be a benign First Amendment statement rather than a threat, attending what you insist is a lawful protest, which you believe to be another benign First Amendment statement, regardless of what the police say, well then you are responsible for nothing. Not the terror of others, which isn’t your concern, and not the public retreat or silencing of others, which is, after all, not your concern. The entire sphere of your responsibility is you. And if you are a brown man? Doing journalism as protected under the same First Amendment? Well, then you just have to hope that you haven’t sent a silent signal to the Minneapolis police that you are a threat. One side demands no awareness of the thoughts and fears of anyone; one side demands infinite awareness of every possible reaction by anyone, everywhere. Imagination too, it seems, is for suckers.

    There’s a lot more where that came from. But just for the record, I think she lets the white guy with the bazooka off much too lightly. The guy with the bazooka knows damned well what effect he’s having, and that’s why he’s doing it.

  2. Okay, I’ll add something from a Dahlia Lithwick column:

    Consider that if you are George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, or Christian Cooper, you are asked to move through the world not only accountable to everyone around you for what you do, how you jog, where you sleep, and how you speak, but also to be somehow responsible for everything you don’t do as well. As my friend Aymann Ismail wrote this week, if you are an American of color, you spend your days smiling to disarm people who may fear you irrationally, or crossing streets to avoid alarming people who may think you want to harm them. In America, if you are a person of color, you must possess so capacious an imagination that you need not simply control your every word and move and act so as to avoid looking like you want to do harm, but you must also anticipate how anyone and everyone will interpret your words and behaviors, because it is their perception that matters. R. Eric Thomas says that if you are a person of color, what you think is immaterial: “You learn, at some point, how to perform being non-threatening and you learn that often it matters less how well you perform and more whether the audience for said performance believes it. Or wants to believe it. Or is in the mood to believe it.”
    Ah, but if you are a white man, armed with, say, a bazooka, which you believe to be a benign First Amendment statement rather than a threat, attending what you insist is a lawful protest, which you believe to be another benign First Amendment statement, regardless of what the police say, well then you are responsible for nothing. Not the terror of others, which isn’t your concern, and not the public retreat or silencing of others, which is, after all, not your concern. The entire sphere of your responsibility is you. And if you are a brown man? Doing journalism as protected under the same First Amendment? Well, then you just have to hope that you haven’t sent a silent signal to the Minneapolis police that you are a threat. One side demands no awareness of the thoughts and fears of anyone; one side demands infinite awareness of every possible reaction by anyone, everywhere. Imagination too, it seems, is for suckers.

    There’s a lot more where that came from. But just for the record, I think she lets the white guy with the bazooka off much too lightly. The guy with the bazooka knows damned well what effect he’s having, and that’s why he’s doing it.

  3. Oh my God. That clip is terribly upsetting, and terrible, and true. And the Lithwick piece above ditto. Goddamn anyone who says “All lives matter” in response, it’s almost always, at the very least, so incredibly obtuse.

  4. Oh my God. That clip is terribly upsetting, and terrible, and true. And the Lithwick piece above ditto. Goddamn anyone who says “All lives matter” in response, it’s almost always, at the very least, so incredibly obtuse.

  5. It shouldn’t be that 16 year old’s job to come up with a better way. It is, and has been, and will continue to be, our job to do that, and give that kid a better world to come up in.
    How long until this crap ends?
    This shit is breaking my heart.

  6. It shouldn’t be that 16 year old’s job to come up with a better way. It is, and has been, and will continue to be, our job to do that, and give that kid a better world to come up in.
    How long until this crap ends?
    This shit is breaking my heart.

  7. This is a video of a guy breaking windows at an Autozone in Minneapolis.
    Apparently, he’s a white cop.
    I hesitate to share this, because I’m not sure that stirring up more anger is all that useful right now.
    But seriously, WTF.
    This nation owes its black population a debt that can never be repaid, not least for its patience, forbearance, and willingness to forgive.
    It’s on the rest of us to make sure that isn’t all in vain.

  8. This is a video of a guy breaking windows at an Autozone in Minneapolis.
    Apparently, he’s a white cop.
    I hesitate to share this, because I’m not sure that stirring up more anger is all that useful right now.
    But seriously, WTF.
    This nation owes its black population a debt that can never be repaid, not least for its patience, forbearance, and willingness to forgive.
    It’s on the rest of us to make sure that isn’t all in vain.

  9. wrs @11:48. It shouldn’t be that kids’ job, and it should be, in fact is, our job. But at the same time, a black man in America has 400 years of reasons to utterly write off the possibility that we’ll do our job.
    I’m nobody (to quote Emily Dickinson), so wtf do I know. But I believe that bearing witness is the foundation of every job worth doing. So bearing witness to the pain of the men in the video is a starting point. The least I can do is not look away.

  10. wrs @11:48. It shouldn’t be that kids’ job, and it should be, in fact is, our job. But at the same time, a black man in America has 400 years of reasons to utterly write off the possibility that we’ll do our job.
    I’m nobody (to quote Emily Dickinson), so wtf do I know. But I believe that bearing witness is the foundation of every job worth doing. So bearing witness to the pain of the men in the video is a starting point. The least I can do is not look away.

  11. Another addition, which notes It’s a Battle for the Soul of the Nation:

    The Trump presidency will be bookended by two violent explosions of racial animus. In some ways, the true start of his presidency, which set the tone for everything that followed — the racist appeals, the refusals to take responsibility, the selective condemnation of violence, the spinelessness of his party — was Charlottesville. A president who sides with “very fine” people, a.k.a. neo-Nazis, was one intent on destroying the prospect of multiracial, rational self-governance. The presidency ends — we pray — with the explosion of violence triggered by a Minneapolis police officer’s killing of George Floyd.

    Trump keeps pouring gasoline on the flames. While Biden sounds like a President.

  12. Another addition, which notes It’s a Battle for the Soul of the Nation:

    The Trump presidency will be bookended by two violent explosions of racial animus. In some ways, the true start of his presidency, which set the tone for everything that followed — the racist appeals, the refusals to take responsibility, the selective condemnation of violence, the spinelessness of his party — was Charlottesville. A president who sides with “very fine” people, a.k.a. neo-Nazis, was one intent on destroying the prospect of multiracial, rational self-governance. The presidency ends — we pray — with the explosion of violence triggered by a Minneapolis police officer’s killing of George Floyd.

    Trump keeps pouring gasoline on the flames. While Biden sounds like a President.

  13. not sure what my point here is, but i feel like i should share this story…
    a friend of a friend runs a clothing store in downtown Raleigh. like a lot of places, it’s been struggling because of C19. and like a lot of places, Raleigh had a night of protests and vandalism and looting last night. and this friend of a friend was apparently there, watching her store during the protests. and, it was destroyed, and everything inside was taken. and the people who did it were black kids, mostly masked – she recorded it all on her phone and posted it on FB.
    i’m having a hard time seeing how destroying this person’s business helps the cause of racial justice. but it’s much easier for me to see how it can turn people off to the protests in general.
    confusing stuff.

  14. not sure what my point here is, but i feel like i should share this story…
    a friend of a friend runs a clothing store in downtown Raleigh. like a lot of places, it’s been struggling because of C19. and like a lot of places, Raleigh had a night of protests and vandalism and looting last night. and this friend of a friend was apparently there, watching her store during the protests. and, it was destroyed, and everything inside was taken. and the people who did it were black kids, mostly masked – she recorded it all on her phone and posted it on FB.
    i’m having a hard time seeing how destroying this person’s business helps the cause of racial justice. but it’s much easier for me to see how it can turn people off to the protests in general.
    confusing stuff.

  17. Trump keeps pouring gasoline on the flames. While Biden sounds like a President.
    Trump is always exactly the wrong person for the moment, no matter the moment.

  18. Trump keeps pouring gasoline on the flames. While Biden sounds like a President.
    Trump is always exactly the wrong person for the moment, no matter the moment.

  19. Oh, wrs @11.48, and @11.59, and what Janie said @12.15, very particularly her last three sentences.
    What is happening, has happened, and will apparently go on happening to African Americans at the hands of white Americans is a stain on humanity. And that it goes on being denied, and obfuscated about, and whipped up for various kinds of gain. (And, for the avoidance of doubt, I am not claiming that things in the UK are perfect either.)

  20. Oh, wrs @11.48, and @11.59, and what Janie said @12.15, very particularly her last three sentences.
    What is happening, has happened, and will apparently go on happening to African Americans at the hands of white Americans is a stain on humanity. And that it goes on being denied, and obfuscated about, and whipped up for various kinds of gain. (And, for the avoidance of doubt, I am not claiming that things in the UK are perfect either.)

  21. @cleek — of course destroying your friend’s business doesn’t help the cause of racial justice.
    But as I learned during many years of gay rights and same-sex marriage campaigns, you go to bat for causes with the allies and hangers-on and bystanders and opportunists and exploiters who show up, not the perfectly omniscient and virtuous saints and geniuses you wish you had.

  22. @cleek — of course destroying your friend’s business doesn’t help the cause of racial justice.
    But as I learned during many years of gay rights and same-sex marriage campaigns, you go to bat for causes with the allies and hangers-on and bystanders and opportunists and exploiters who show up, not the perfectly omniscient and virtuous saints and geniuses you wish you had.

  25. One of the comments from Janie’s link reads

    “Our needs aren’t moderate. The absence of Trump is not enough.”

    But probably a necessary first step. Without it, none of the other stuff happens either.

  26. One of the comments from Janie’s link reads

    “Our needs aren’t moderate. The absence of Trump is not enough.”

    But probably a necessary first step. Without it, none of the other stuff happens either.

  27. yeah, i didn’t say anything about “perfectly omniscient and virtuous saints and geniuses”.
    I didn’t say you did. You seemed to be blaming the destruction of your friend’s store on the quest for racial justice. I think that’s bullshit, to put it more bluntly.

  28. yeah, i didn’t say anything about “perfectly omniscient and virtuous saints and geniuses”.
    I didn’t say you did. You seemed to be blaming the destruction of your friend’s store on the quest for racial justice. I think that’s bullshit, to put it more bluntly.

  31. cleek, I hope you don’t mind me observing, this is no time for the good guys to scram. What you said makes sense, of course it does. But Janie’s response is also about the real world, and reflects her impatience and frustration after a life spent fighting on various barricades.
    Here’s hoping neither of you minds my interjection!

  32. cleek, I hope you don’t mind me observing, this is no time for the good guys to scram. What you said makes sense, of course it does. But Janie’s response is also about the real world, and reflects her impatience and frustration after a life spent fighting on various barricades.
    Here’s hoping neither of you minds my interjection!

  33. cleek is right that a lot of people will be turned off by the reality of looting and destruction.
    But that just illustrates Dahlia Lithwick’s point, and one of Ibram Kendi’s in How to be an Antiracist. Every black person has to behave perfectly at all times, and any bad behavior by black people or their allies is generalizable, and can be used to justify the status quo.
    ****
    Seeing GftNC’s comment before hitting post — as I just said, cleek is partly right and partly wrong. IMHO.

  34. cleek is right that a lot of people will be turned off by the reality of looting and destruction.
    But that just illustrates Dahlia Lithwick’s point, and one of Ibram Kendi’s in How to be an Antiracist. Every black person has to behave perfectly at all times, and any bad behavior by black people or their allies is generalizable, and can be used to justify the status quo.
    ****
    Seeing GftNC’s comment before hitting post — as I just said, cleek is partly right and partly wrong. IMHO.

  37. Every black person has to behave perfectly at all times, and any bad behavior by black people or their allies is generalizable, and can be used to justify the status quo.
    I am not, of course, justifying this. It’s perhaps one of the things that’s mostly obviously on us as white people to try to counteract.

  38. Every black person has to behave perfectly at all times, and any bad behavior by black people or their allies is generalizable, and can be used to justify the status quo.
    I am not, of course, justifying this. It’s perhaps one of the things that’s mostly obviously on us as white people to try to counteract.

  43. i’m having a hard time seeing how destroying this person’s business helps the cause of racial justice.
    It doesn’t. It’s profoundly counter-productive.
    Your point is clear, and is completely valid.
    I believe that bearing witness is the foundation of every job worth doing. So bearing witness to the pain of the men in the video is a starting point. The least I can do is not look away.
    Amen.

  44. i’m having a hard time seeing how destroying this person’s business helps the cause of racial justice.
    It doesn’t. It’s profoundly counter-productive.
    Your point is clear, and is completely valid.
    I believe that bearing witness is the foundation of every job worth doing. So bearing witness to the pain of the men in the video is a starting point. The least I can do is not look away.
    Amen.

  45. and now i just learned that another friend of a friend, who runs a bunch of Mexican restaurants in OH, had a shop destroyed last night – while people were in there. they had to rush all the employees and customers out the back door, as ‘protesters’ came in through the front of the place and destroyed everything in sight.
    they ran for their lives.
    i don’t think calling that unacceptable even approaches asking anyone to be “perfect”.
    YMMV, obviously.

  46. and now i just learned that another friend of a friend, who runs a bunch of Mexican restaurants in OH, had a shop destroyed last night – while people were in there. they had to rush all the employees and customers out the back door, as ‘protesters’ came in through the front of the place and destroyed everything in sight.
    they ran for their lives.
    i don’t think calling that unacceptable even approaches asking anyone to be “perfect”.
    YMMV, obviously.

  47. It doesn’t. It’s profoundly counter-productive.
    I’ll go further.
    It’s more than counter-productive, it’s wrong. The people who did it were wrong to do it.
    King said riots are the language of the unheard. I think that is completely correct. And I think the anger behind them is also correct, and justified.
    And I think that randomly destroying or taking other folks’ property and businesses is wrong.
    Neither statement makes the other less so.
    I’m not a black person. I’m not on the street protesting anything. I’m just an old white guy with a nice white collar job living in a tidy little ranch house in a white-bread suburb. And I benefit in every way from all of that, and I benefit from the ease with which I was able to attain all of that.
    So my piece of all of this is all about the general level of entitlement I can assume, because of things I did relatively little to earn.
    I can recognize that destructive rioting is wrong and profoundly counter-productive, and I can also recognize that none of that lets me off the hook.
    That’s how I see it. I am, also and sincerely, sorry for the damage done to your friend’s business.

  48. It doesn’t. It’s profoundly counter-productive.
    I’ll go further.
    It’s more than counter-productive, it’s wrong. The people who did it were wrong to do it.
    King said riots are the language of the unheard. I think that is completely correct. And I think the anger behind them is also correct, and justified.
    And I think that randomly destroying or taking other folks’ property and businesses is wrong.
    Neither statement makes the other less so.
    I’m not a black person. I’m not on the street protesting anything. I’m just an old white guy with a nice white collar job living in a tidy little ranch house in a white-bread suburb. And I benefit in every way from all of that, and I benefit from the ease with which I was able to attain all of that.
    So my piece of all of this is all about the general level of entitlement I can assume, because of things I did relatively little to earn.
    I can recognize that destructive rioting is wrong and profoundly counter-productive, and I can also recognize that none of that lets me off the hook.
    That’s how I see it. I am, also and sincerely, sorry for the damage done to your friend’s business.

  49. I know people who were protesting in Philadelphia yesterday. They were displaced by rioters later in the day. I won’t say there were no people who both protested and rioted. I will say there were plenty of people who did one but not the other. It’s how these things go. Lots of people, a bit of chaos, then lots of chaos.

  50. I know people who were protesting in Philadelphia yesterday. They were displaced by rioters later in the day. I won’t say there were no people who both protested and rioted. I will say there were plenty of people who did one but not the other. It’s how these things go. Lots of people, a bit of chaos, then lots of chaos.

  51. Responding to cleek @1:26
    Oh FFS.
    Of course it’s unacceptable.
    Of course it’s counterproductive. Even profoundly counterproductive.
    AND OF COURSE, IT’S GOING TO KEEP HAPPENING. Every single time.
    So if any progress is going to be made toward racial justice, it’s going to get done even though people show up to do this kind of shit while peaceful protestors are trying to do a different kind of thing.
    Because people are a mixed fucking bag, and when good people show up to try to do good things, assholes are going to show up to wreck it, whether intentionally or not.
    *****
    they ran for their lives.
    Is this supposed to be the fault of the people who showed up to protest peacefully? That’s what I’m not clear on.
    cleek, I’m sorry about your friends’ businesses. There is no justification for such destruction. But there is also no justification for blaming the destruction on peaceful protestors, or on the cause they’re working for, and that’s what you seem to be doing. If I’m misinterpreting, feel free to correct me.
    i don’t think calling that unacceptable even approaches asking anyone to be “perfect”.
    I already said I didn’t think you asked anyone to be perfect. JHC. But if you’re going to be stuck on it forever, have fun. Unlike you, I’m now going to stay away for a while.

  52. Responding to cleek @1:26
    Oh FFS.
    Of course it’s unacceptable.
    Of course it’s counterproductive. Even profoundly counterproductive.
    AND OF COURSE, IT’S GOING TO KEEP HAPPENING. Every single time.
    So if any progress is going to be made toward racial justice, it’s going to get done even though people show up to do this kind of shit while peaceful protestors are trying to do a different kind of thing.
    Because people are a mixed fucking bag, and when good people show up to try to do good things, assholes are going to show up to wreck it, whether intentionally or not.
    *****
    they ran for their lives.
    Is this supposed to be the fault of the people who showed up to protest peacefully? That’s what I’m not clear on.
    cleek, I’m sorry about your friends’ businesses. There is no justification for such destruction. But there is also no justification for blaming the destruction on peaceful protestors, or on the cause they’re working for, and that’s what you seem to be doing. If I’m misinterpreting, feel free to correct me.
    i don’t think calling that unacceptable even approaches asking anyone to be “perfect”.
    I already said I didn’t think you asked anyone to be perfect. JHC. But if you’re going to be stuck on it forever, have fun. Unlike you, I’m now going to stay away for a while.

  53. Is this supposed to be the fault of the people who showed up to protest peacefully?
    no. of course not.
    But there is also no justification for blaming the destruction on peaceful protestors, or on the cause they’re working for, and that’s what you seem to be doing.
    i can’t even.
    now i’m really done.

  54. Is this supposed to be the fault of the people who showed up to protest peacefully?
    no. of course not.
    But there is also no justification for blaming the destruction on peaceful protestors, or on the cause they’re working for, and that’s what you seem to be doing.
    i can’t even.
    now i’m really done.

  55. they had to rush all the employees and customers out the back door, as ‘protesters’ came in through the front of the place and destroyed everything in sight.
    My views on roits are profoundly influenced by all those I saw during my college years. They commonly had 3 groups involved.

    1. The folks who were protesting. (War. Racism. Whatever.)
    2. Those (college kids mostly) who went to the riot/protest for the excitement; they typically cared nothing at all about the cause of the protest. I actually had one of the kuds in my dorm say explicitly that he was going to the riot because it was exciting. I think most of the looters fall into this category.
    3. The guys who planned the riot. They definitely had an agenda, but it was unrelated to that of the original protesters. I observe that the actual protesters mostly had long hair (it was the late 1960s, when that was as much a political statement as a MAGA hat). But the guys who planned the riots had shorter hair than mine. And I was in ROTC.

    I guess what I’m saying is that I suspect the rioters/looters mostly aren’t seriously concerned with fighting racism. And I would not be at all surprised to discover that the looting was deliberately kicked off by “outsiders” also not interested in fighting racism. Whether they are racists looking to invent support for their views, or those just hoping to drastically remake how America is governed (far left, far right, or far libertarian), I couldn’t guess. Maybe some of each

  56. they had to rush all the employees and customers out the back door, as ‘protesters’ came in through the front of the place and destroyed everything in sight.
    My views on roits are profoundly influenced by all those I saw during my college years. They commonly had 3 groups involved.

    1. The folks who were protesting. (War. Racism. Whatever.)
    2. Those (college kids mostly) who went to the riot/protest for the excitement; they typically cared nothing at all about the cause of the protest. I actually had one of the kuds in my dorm say explicitly that he was going to the riot because it was exciting. I think most of the looters fall into this category.
    3. The guys who planned the riot. They definitely had an agenda, but it was unrelated to that of the original protesters. I observe that the actual protesters mostly had long hair (it was the late 1960s, when that was as much a political statement as a MAGA hat). But the guys who planned the riots had shorter hair than mine. And I was in ROTC.

    I guess what I’m saying is that I suspect the rioters/looters mostly aren’t seriously concerned with fighting racism. And I would not be at all surprised to discover that the looting was deliberately kicked off by “outsiders” also not interested in fighting racism. Whether they are racists looking to invent support for their views, or those just hoping to drastically remake how America is governed (far left, far right, or far libertarian), I couldn’t guess. Maybe some of each

  57. “Tanya Kerssen was standing on her front porch filming the procession of armored vehicles and riot gear–clad troops rolling through Whittier, a neighborhood a few blocks north of where protests over the killing of George Floyd, an unarmed black man, had recently turned into riots. The National Guard had been called in to help restore order and enforce an 8 p.m. curfew set by Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz. Kerssen was complying with that order—the curfew applies only to public spaces, not private ones like residences, porches, or front yards—but she became a target anyway.
    “Light ’em up!” someone can be heard shouting in the video. Then bean bag rounds and paint canisters are fired at Kerssen and others, who quickly flee inside.
    The video is shocking, but it was hardly the only scene of apparently unnecessary policy brutality to be captured by smartphones and TV news cameras on Saturday, as peaceful protests in many cities across the country turned violent once again. Rather than helping to lower the tensions and restore peace, however, aggressive police tactics are likely going to worsen the situation—after all, the protests began because Minneapolis cops used unnecessarily brutal tactics to subdue and ultimately kill Floyd.”
    Nation’s Cops Seem Determined To Demonstrate Why People Are Protesting Them in the First Place: Aggressive police tactics are likely to worsen the situation.

  58. “Tanya Kerssen was standing on her front porch filming the procession of armored vehicles and riot gear–clad troops rolling through Whittier, a neighborhood a few blocks north of where protests over the killing of George Floyd, an unarmed black man, had recently turned into riots. The National Guard had been called in to help restore order and enforce an 8 p.m. curfew set by Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz. Kerssen was complying with that order—the curfew applies only to public spaces, not private ones like residences, porches, or front yards—but she became a target anyway.
    “Light ’em up!” someone can be heard shouting in the video. Then bean bag rounds and paint canisters are fired at Kerssen and others, who quickly flee inside.
    The video is shocking, but it was hardly the only scene of apparently unnecessary policy brutality to be captured by smartphones and TV news cameras on Saturday, as peaceful protests in many cities across the country turned violent once again. Rather than helping to lower the tensions and restore peace, however, aggressive police tactics are likely going to worsen the situation—after all, the protests began because Minneapolis cops used unnecessarily brutal tactics to subdue and ultimately kill Floyd.”
    Nation’s Cops Seem Determined To Demonstrate Why People Are Protesting Them in the First Place: Aggressive police tactics are likely to worsen the situation.

  59. That was the escalation link I posted, Charles.
    It, and the de-escalation links are worth a look.
    As is KillerMike’s impromptu speech, which was both impressive and moving.
    For my money, he should be in Biden’s administration.

  60. That was the escalation link I posted, Charles.
    It, and the de-escalation links are worth a look.
    As is KillerMike’s impromptu speech, which was both impressive and moving.
    For my money, he should be in Biden’s administration.

  61. That was the escalation link I posted, Charles.
    I followed your link and thought the actions of the National Guard detachment were way over the top. I linked to the above article as it expanded upon and gave some additional context to your link. And covered some similar incidents occurring in other locations.

  62. That was the escalation link I posted, Charles.
    I followed your link and thought the actions of the National Guard detachment were way over the top. I linked to the above article as it expanded upon and gave some additional context to your link. And covered some similar incidents occurring in other locations.

  63. Nigel, that Killer Mike speech was magnificent (and made many of the same points cleek was thinking about, of course), thank you. I had no idea who he was. I agree, he needs to be in a position where he can do some more good, DV, after November.
    And, wishy-washy as it may seem, I get where Janie is coming from as well. These are hard times, as I have said before, and emotions are understandably running so high it’s easy for one’s buttons to be inadvertently pushed by actual allies who could just as well be fighting alongside oneself on the same barricade.
    This is not kumbaya (I know my interventions are often mistaken for it). This is know your actual enemy.

  64. Nigel, that Killer Mike speech was magnificent (and made many of the same points cleek was thinking about, of course), thank you. I had no idea who he was. I agree, he needs to be in a position where he can do some more good, DV, after November.
    And, wishy-washy as it may seem, I get where Janie is coming from as well. These are hard times, as I have said before, and emotions are understandably running so high it’s easy for one’s buttons to be inadvertently pushed by actual allies who could just as well be fighting alongside oneself on the same barricade.
    This is not kumbaya (I know my interventions are often mistaken for it). This is know your actual enemy.

  67. The National Guard footage has me back needing to read Radley Balko’s “The Rise of the Warrior Cop.” Balko and I don’t align on many issues, but I do tend to agree with his analysis of police militarization.
    https://www.c-span.org/video/?314154-1/rise-warrior-cop
    (I’m more aligned with Balko than I am with the Cato Institute, but I think this event worth a link despite that.)

  68. The National Guard footage has me back needing to read Radley Balko’s “The Rise of the Warrior Cop.” Balko and I don’t align on many issues, but I do tend to agree with his analysis of police militarization.
    https://www.c-span.org/video/?314154-1/rise-warrior-cop
    (I’m more aligned with Balko than I am with the Cato Institute, but I think this event worth a link despite that.)

  69. On the whole, police are much better behaved than they were even a decade or two ago. Due in part, that in public, they are often surrounded by people with video cameras.
    I also recommend Balko’s writings on the subject.

  70. On the whole, police are much better behaved than they were even a decade or two ago. Due in part, that in public, they are often surrounded by people with video cameras.
    I also recommend Balko’s writings on the subject.

  73. Like Nigel, I’m also far far away. I do know that sometimes, anger can’t be contained. I also know that people use anger in various ways, legitimate and not. While it may seem a non-sequitur, watching how Jordan turned everything ever said against him into some insane kind of affront is what made him the ‘GOAT’. And we (as society) cheer that because it is ‘bringing out the best’. But if you think at what cost. (The program hasn’t really changed my opinion of Jordan, it always seemed like he was a hyper-driven individual whose team accomplishments were only to validate his own accomplishments. It did take the shine off of Phil Jackson’s zen master coach routine though, how does one allow that bullying in front of you?)
    Anyway, I feel like we may be reaching an inflection point based on this article.
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2020/05/31/in-some-cities-police-officers-joined-protesters-marching-against-brutality/
    but who knows. I sure don’t

  74. Like Nigel, I’m also far far away. I do know that sometimes, anger can’t be contained. I also know that people use anger in various ways, legitimate and not. While it may seem a non-sequitur, watching how Jordan turned everything ever said against him into some insane kind of affront is what made him the ‘GOAT’. And we (as society) cheer that because it is ‘bringing out the best’. But if you think at what cost. (The program hasn’t really changed my opinion of Jordan, it always seemed like he was a hyper-driven individual whose team accomplishments were only to validate his own accomplishments. It did take the shine off of Phil Jackson’s zen master coach routine though, how does one allow that bullying in front of you?)
    Anyway, I feel like we may be reaching an inflection point based on this article.
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2020/05/31/in-some-cities-police-officers-joined-protesters-marching-against-brutality/
    but who knows. I sure don’t

  75. Anyway, I feel like we may be reaching an inflection point based on this article.
    I had heard about Camden, NJ, which is very close to where I live and where my place of work is. It didn’t surprise me much, because the police force was revamped recently, is very young, and minorities are well represented.

  76. Anyway, I feel like we may be reaching an inflection point based on this article.
    I had heard about Camden, NJ, which is very close to where I live and where my place of work is. It didn’t surprise me much, because the police force was revamped recently, is very young, and minorities are well represented.

  77. It appears that my experience of half a century ago is being repeated. Just saw a news report that there are “mobile groups of rioters and looters moving about the East Bay.”** Not protesters, note, but people just looking to loot or to riot.
    I really wish some industrious law enforcement intelligence unit could identify who they, as opposed to the protesters, are. And throw the book at them. I’ve got a lot of sympathy for the protesters. For those just out to loot, not a bit.
    ** And most of the area has curfews in effect.

  78. It appears that my experience of half a century ago is being repeated. Just saw a news report that there are “mobile groups of rioters and looters moving about the East Bay.”** Not protesters, note, but people just looking to loot or to riot.
    I really wish some industrious law enforcement intelligence unit could identify who they, as opposed to the protesters, are. And throw the book at them. I’ve got a lot of sympathy for the protesters. For those just out to loot, not a bit.
    ** And most of the area has curfews in effect.

  79. On the whole, police are much better behaved than they were even a decade or two ago. Due in part, that in public, they are often surrounded by people with video cameras.
    CharlesWT, I know that I tend to tee off on you, so I want to avoid doing that here, I think there is a measure of truth. But it is not simply that there are video cameras, it is that those video cameras can have their ‘film’ uploaded to the internet where they can be seen by hundreds or even thousands of people in near real time.
    Furthermore, mentalities have changed. In A few decades ago, how many black, women, minorities were in the force. Indeed, what makes the George Floyd murder so chilling is the inability of crowd’s gaze to stop it. I’ve not had the heart or the stomach to look at it closely, but the total lack of response to the complaints of the crowd is something I really wonder about. Did they feel so empowered that they didn’t think they had to worry? Or were they just so unaware of what was going to happen that they didn’t give it any credence?
    So anyway, I think that the tech that allows people to film at a moment’s notice is important, no mistake, but it is part of so many other advances, that I bristle a bit cause your short comment makes me think that you are suggesting it is just ‘video cameras’ doing this.
    This analysis of the 3rd degree murder charge against Chauvin points to some things that still raise concerns.
    https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/05/31/ex-prosecutor-complaint-against-minnesota-cop-derek-chauvin-in-george-floyd-case-drops-important-clues/

  80. On the whole, police are much better behaved than they were even a decade or two ago. Due in part, that in public, they are often surrounded by people with video cameras.
    CharlesWT, I know that I tend to tee off on you, so I want to avoid doing that here, I think there is a measure of truth. But it is not simply that there are video cameras, it is that those video cameras can have their ‘film’ uploaded to the internet where they can be seen by hundreds or even thousands of people in near real time.
    Furthermore, mentalities have changed. In A few decades ago, how many black, women, minorities were in the force. Indeed, what makes the George Floyd murder so chilling is the inability of crowd’s gaze to stop it. I’ve not had the heart or the stomach to look at it closely, but the total lack of response to the complaints of the crowd is something I really wonder about. Did they feel so empowered that they didn’t think they had to worry? Or were they just so unaware of what was going to happen that they didn’t give it any credence?
    So anyway, I think that the tech that allows people to film at a moment’s notice is important, no mistake, but it is part of so many other advances, that I bristle a bit cause your short comment makes me think that you are suggesting it is just ‘video cameras’ doing this.
    This analysis of the 3rd degree murder charge against Chauvin points to some things that still raise concerns.
    https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/05/31/ex-prosecutor-complaint-against-minnesota-cop-derek-chauvin-in-george-floyd-case-drops-important-clues/

  81. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar got to the heart of it in this recent essay:
    I shared that link on facebook this morning. I guess I’ll see how many comments I’ll feel the need to delete. I’m no longer interested in even momentarily entertaining people who try to argue that there’s no such thing as white privilege or systemic racism. They might as well be telling me the Atlantic Ocean doesn’t exist. Nor will I tolerate predictable whataboutisms. Maybe I’ll be pleasantly surprised and won’t have to deal with such things.

  82. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar got to the heart of it in this recent essay:
    I shared that link on facebook this morning. I guess I’ll see how many comments I’ll feel the need to delete. I’m no longer interested in even momentarily entertaining people who try to argue that there’s no such thing as white privilege or systemic racism. They might as well be telling me the Atlantic Ocean doesn’t exist. Nor will I tolerate predictable whataboutisms. Maybe I’ll be pleasantly surprised and won’t have to deal with such things.

  83. Police behaving badly.
    “As Americans emerged from quarantine to protest police brutality—and as protesters in many cities were joined by opportunistic vandals and looters—politicians have imposed rules that only exacerbate tensions between cops and communities.
    Urban leaders across the U.S. imposed curfews last night. In Philadelphia, for instance, residents got little notice before being told a citywide curfew was going into effect from 6 p.m. until 6 a.m. In D.C., the curfew went from 11 p.m. to 6 a.m., with the National Guard called in to help with enforcement. In Tennessee, the governor issued a statewide curfew from just after 8 p.m. until 5 a.m.
    Nonetheless, protests continued apace, producing yet more law enforcement horror stories. Here’s a small sampling:”
    Videos Show Police Aggression Against Protesters Across the Country. Here Are Two Ways to Help It Stop.: Plus: the return of the “outside agitator” narrative, Trump can’t designate Antifa a terror group, and more…

  84. Police behaving badly.
    “As Americans emerged from quarantine to protest police brutality—and as protesters in many cities were joined by opportunistic vandals and looters—politicians have imposed rules that only exacerbate tensions between cops and communities.
    Urban leaders across the U.S. imposed curfews last night. In Philadelphia, for instance, residents got little notice before being told a citywide curfew was going into effect from 6 p.m. until 6 a.m. In D.C., the curfew went from 11 p.m. to 6 a.m., with the National Guard called in to help with enforcement. In Tennessee, the governor issued a statewide curfew from just after 8 p.m. until 5 a.m.
    Nonetheless, protests continued apace, producing yet more law enforcement horror stories. Here’s a small sampling:”
    Videos Show Police Aggression Against Protesters Across the Country. Here Are Two Ways to Help It Stop.: Plus: the return of the “outside agitator” narrative, Trump can’t designate Antifa a terror group, and more…

  85. …your short comment makes me think that you are suggesting it is just ‘video cameras’ doing this.
    I thought that usage was just Charles showing his age, like when people refer to recording something with a DVR as “taping” it. ;^)

  86. …your short comment makes me think that you are suggesting it is just ‘video cameras’ doing this.
    I thought that usage was just Charles showing his age, like when people refer to recording something with a DVR as “taping” it. ;^)

  87. like when people refer to recording something with a DVR as “taping” it. ;^)
    Guilty!

  88. like when people refer to recording something with a DVR as “taping” it. ;^)
    Guilty!

  89. Nonetheless, protests continued apace, producing yet more law enforcement horror stories.
    Some of those, certainly. But also a lot of stories of police joining with the protesters. Kneeling with them. Marching with them (even carrying signs!). Chanting with them. Because a lot of police are just as appalled as we are.
    That’s unlike any past protests I can recall.

  90. Nonetheless, protests continued apace, producing yet more law enforcement horror stories.
    Some of those, certainly. But also a lot of stories of police joining with the protesters. Kneeling with them. Marching with them (even carrying signs!). Chanting with them. Because a lot of police are just as appalled as we are.
    That’s unlike any past protests I can recall.

  91. like when people refer to recording something with a DVR as “taping” it. ;^)
    Or refer to entering a phone number as “dialing” it.

  92. like when people refer to recording something with a DVR as “taping” it. ;^)
    Or refer to entering a phone number as “dialing” it.

  95. The senior US Senator from HI, Brian Schatz, has introduced legislation calling for an end to the practice of selling surplus military gear to US police departments.
    Consider calling your Congresspeople and asking for their support.
    The mission of civic police forces is, and should be, to protect and serve the communities they operate in. They are not supposed to be an occupying force.

  96. The senior US Senator from HI, Brian Schatz, has introduced legislation calling for an end to the practice of selling surplus military gear to US police departments.
    Consider calling your Congresspeople and asking for their support.
    The mission of civic police forces is, and should be, to protect and serve the communities they operate in. They are not supposed to be an occupying force.

  99. Currently, the incentives for a lot of police forces is to pursue illegal drugs and vice cases and let cases for things like theft and homicide slide.

  100. Currently, the incentives for a lot of police forces is to pursue illegal drugs and vice cases and let cases for things like theft and homicide slide.

  101. Currently, the incentives for a lot of police forces is to pursue illegal drugs and vice cases and let cases for things like theft and homicide slide.

  102. Currently, the incentives for a lot of police forces is to pursue illegal drugs and vice cases and let cases for things like theft and homicide slide.

  107. The trend to militarization accelerated, if not really began, when the gangs in various cities started having military weapons.
    I can’t ask the police to try to protect the citizenry with inferior weapons and limited body armor/riot gear. Just me. 7 police treated at the hospital last night, they were pretty much fully swatted. Imagine if they had ess how many might have died. That was just in Boston of course. Orlando, Charleston, similar stories.
    The incentives to focus resources on vice cases are pretty high, they are typically the ones in the news.

  108. The trend to militarization accelerated, if not really began, when the gangs in various cities started having military weapons.
    I can’t ask the police to try to protect the citizenry with inferior weapons and limited body armor/riot gear. Just me. 7 police treated at the hospital last night, they were pretty much fully swatted. Imagine if they had ess how many might have died. That was just in Boston of course. Orlando, Charleston, similar stories.
    The incentives to focus resources on vice cases are pretty high, they are typically the ones in the news.

  109. The trend to militarization accelerated, if not really began, when the gangs in various cities started having military weapons.
    Certainly this is an issue. But is there a way, other than the obvious (i.e. gun control for said military weapons) to address it? Because clearly just giving the police military weapons as well isn’t working.

  110. The trend to militarization accelerated, if not really began, when the gangs in various cities started having military weapons.
    Certainly this is an issue. But is there a way, other than the obvious (i.e. gun control for said military weapons) to address it? Because clearly just giving the police military weapons as well isn’t working.

  111. To McKinney’s point about police unions (which seems to be a developing talking point on the right), it’s hard to strike a good balance between protecting union members from unfair retaliation and serving the needs of the public.
    I ran across a few of these articles right around the time I went in search of that Radley Balko talk and subsequently read through a few recent journal articles concerned with restrictions on public access to internal disciplinary records. There’s a lot of evidence that suggests that these clauses in the collective bargaining agreements may make it harder to establish histories of problematic behavior because records are restricted or purged.
    Full disclosure – I’m a grievance steward in the local campus teachers union. I support, in principle, the rights of union members to keep disciplinary records out of the public eye, especially as those records touch on medical issues or other standard privacy concerns.
    This in no way means that I am not worried about abuse of these protections to shield bad actors. The problem here is not the presence of those protective clauses, but the union culture that turns a blind eye to member malfeasance and stands in solidarity with the bad actor in opposition to the core values that the union should represent. A union is only as good as its members.
    So I worry that reforms that seem necessary in the case of the police unions’ dysfunctional self-regulation will be exploited to go after other union members, and that the rules instituted to root out bad cops will be used to go after union activists on campuses and in communities that have been working to put pressure on police to reform their racist policies and excessive use of force guidelines. I know full well that these tools will be used to disrupt organization in contexts far removed from the dire and immediate need for racial justice.
    It’s not just a collective bargaining problem and care needs to be exercised in how the problem is tackled.

  112. To McKinney’s point about police unions (which seems to be a developing talking point on the right), it’s hard to strike a good balance between protecting union members from unfair retaliation and serving the needs of the public.
    I ran across a few of these articles right around the time I went in search of that Radley Balko talk and subsequently read through a few recent journal articles concerned with restrictions on public access to internal disciplinary records. There’s a lot of evidence that suggests that these clauses in the collective bargaining agreements may make it harder to establish histories of problematic behavior because records are restricted or purged.
    Full disclosure – I’m a grievance steward in the local campus teachers union. I support, in principle, the rights of union members to keep disciplinary records out of the public eye, especially as those records touch on medical issues or other standard privacy concerns.
    This in no way means that I am not worried about abuse of these protections to shield bad actors. The problem here is not the presence of those protective clauses, but the union culture that turns a blind eye to member malfeasance and stands in solidarity with the bad actor in opposition to the core values that the union should represent. A union is only as good as its members.
    So I worry that reforms that seem necessary in the case of the police unions’ dysfunctional self-regulation will be exploited to go after other union members, and that the rules instituted to root out bad cops will be used to go after union activists on campuses and in communities that have been working to put pressure on police to reform their racist policies and excessive use of force guidelines. I know full well that these tools will be used to disrupt organization in contexts far removed from the dire and immediate need for racial justice.
    It’s not just a collective bargaining problem and care needs to be exercised in how the problem is tackled.

  113. Much of what lead to gangs and their military weapons are the wars on some drugs and other economic “crimes.” Still, most gun homicides are committed with handguns, not long guns.

  114. Much of what lead to gangs and their military weapons are the wars on some drugs and other economic “crimes.” Still, most gun homicides are committed with handguns, not long guns.

  115. it’s hard to strike a good balance between protecting union members from unfair retaliation and serving the needs of the public.
    Is there evidence of significant amount of “unfair retaliation”? Certainly there is plenty of evidence of failure to “serve the needs of the public.”
    Striking a balance would seem to require, first off, seeing how far off the current balance is. Quite possibly our first effort at balance will require further tuning. But we ought to be able to get significantly closer to balance than we are now.

  116. it’s hard to strike a good balance between protecting union members from unfair retaliation and serving the needs of the public.
    Is there evidence of significant amount of “unfair retaliation”? Certainly there is plenty of evidence of failure to “serve the needs of the public.”
    Striking a balance would seem to require, first off, seeing how far off the current balance is. Quite possibly our first effort at balance will require further tuning. But we ought to be able to get significantly closer to balance than we are now.

  117. other economic “crimes.”
    Can you unpack a little on just what you mean my “other economic crimes”? Like what?
    Thanks
    P.S. Just to clarify, to my mind anyway, the war on drugs doesn’t qualify as about economics. It is, depending on the supporter, either about morality (we lost on abolition of alcohol, but drugs are evil too) or about race (“those people” use drugs, and this is a way to keep them under control).

  118. other economic “crimes.”
    Can you unpack a little on just what you mean my “other economic crimes”? Like what?
    Thanks
    P.S. Just to clarify, to my mind anyway, the war on drugs doesn’t qualify as about economics. It is, depending on the supporter, either about morality (we lost on abolition of alcohol, but drugs are evil too) or about race (“those people” use drugs, and this is a way to keep them under control).

  119. wj – to be clear, my worries about unfair retaliation were not specific to police unions. Any standards that are used to govern access to police disciplinary records will also be used to go after teachers and other types of public employee unions. In my own immediate circumstances that means disputes over grades and such, and the outsized influence of student class evaluations on employee hiring and retention, even when those evaluations have no correlation with teaching effectiveness.
    Like I said, grievance steward. I see a lot of this sort of thing.
    And I also know for a fact that the alt-right has used FOIA as a tool for singling out activists and trying to launch attacks against them on campuses.
    Any action taken to reform the police through curtailing union protections will spill over into other unions.

  120. wj – to be clear, my worries about unfair retaliation were not specific to police unions. Any standards that are used to govern access to police disciplinary records will also be used to go after teachers and other types of public employee unions. In my own immediate circumstances that means disputes over grades and such, and the outsized influence of student class evaluations on employee hiring and retention, even when those evaluations have no correlation with teaching effectiveness.
    Like I said, grievance steward. I see a lot of this sort of thing.
    And I also know for a fact that the alt-right has used FOIA as a tool for singling out activists and trying to launch attacks against them on campuses.
    Any action taken to reform the police through curtailing union protections will spill over into other unions.

  121. nous, I was thinking more about reining in the “defend our members, no matter what” feature of police unions. I don’t see extending that to other public sector unions as a problem either. Not defense against unfair retaliation, but getting the unions to accept that not all of their members are angels either.

  122. nous, I was thinking more about reining in the “defend our members, no matter what” feature of police unions. I don’t see extending that to other public sector unions as a problem either. Not defense against unfair retaliation, but getting the unions to accept that not all of their members are angels either.

  123. Illegal drugs, prostitution, gambling are economic crimes in that the crime is the exchange of money for products and services rendered. Illegal drugs are also status crimes in that it’s illegal to be in physical possession of them. Lawers present, please critique.

  124. Illegal drugs, prostitution, gambling are economic crimes in that the crime is the exchange of money for products and services rendered. Illegal drugs are also status crimes in that it’s illegal to be in physical possession of them. Lawers present, please critique.

  125. The trend to militarization accelerated, if not really began, when the gangs in various cities started having military weapons.
    SWAT or similar teams, dedicated to responding to very high risk situations like narcotics, terrorism, or active shooters, are arguably appropriate.
    Military gear and tactics are not an appropriate response to protest or unarmed civic unrest.
    Protect and serve. That’s the mission.

  126. The trend to militarization accelerated, if not really began, when the gangs in various cities started having military weapons.
    SWAT or similar teams, dedicated to responding to very high risk situations like narcotics, terrorism, or active shooters, are arguably appropriate.
    Military gear and tactics are not an appropriate response to protest or unarmed civic unrest.
    Protect and serve. That’s the mission.

  127. New York may be about to change the over protection of police officers.
    “New York has arguably the broadest police secrecy law in the country: Section 50-a of the state’s civil rights statute. The law totally shields police misconduct records from release, and its scope has steadily expanded over the decades to hide wide swaths of related records from the public, including police shooting reports, transcripts of administrative trials, and even anonymized data on police use of force.
    On Saturday, Democratic New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo said he would sign a bill to reform the notorious law, although he didn’t go so far as to say he supported repealing it entirely.”
    George Floyd Killing Reignites Calls To Repeal New York’s Police Secrecy Laws: For decades, New York’s secrecy regime has hidden police misconduct records from families and reporters.

  128. New York may be about to change the over protection of police officers.
    “New York has arguably the broadest police secrecy law in the country: Section 50-a of the state’s civil rights statute. The law totally shields police misconduct records from release, and its scope has steadily expanded over the decades to hide wide swaths of related records from the public, including police shooting reports, transcripts of administrative trials, and even anonymized data on police use of force.
    On Saturday, Democratic New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo said he would sign a bill to reform the notorious law, although he didn’t go so far as to say he supported repealing it entirely.”
    George Floyd Killing Reignites Calls To Repeal New York’s Police Secrecy Laws: For decades, New York’s secrecy regime has hidden police misconduct records from families and reporters.

  129. SWAT or similar teams, dedicated to responding to very high risk situations like narcotics, terrorism, or active shooters, are arguably appropriate.
    Except that SWAT teams are not used in high-risk situations very often. Some jurisdictions have admitted that they use SWAT in low-risk situations just to keep in practice. Gives you a warm, fuzzy feeling to know that the police might use you as a training dummy.

  130. SWAT or similar teams, dedicated to responding to very high risk situations like narcotics, terrorism, or active shooters, are arguably appropriate.
    Except that SWAT teams are not used in high-risk situations very often. Some jurisdictions have admitted that they use SWAT in low-risk situations just to keep in practice. Gives you a warm, fuzzy feeling to know that the police might use you as a training dummy.

  131. wj – I agree that the “thin blue line/blue brotherhood” mindset is a huge obstacle to overcome when it comes to correcting internal problems without outside review and transparency. That’s why I say that the big change that needs to happen needs to happen within the union.
    I have no interest in sheltering other members of my union from discipline or keeping ineffective teachers or predators in the system.
    The relationship that police unions have to their “management” at the government/administrative level is fraught in a very different way. We incentivize the police the way that we do in part because that is what the prosecutors and DAs need in order to get re-elected with their “tough on crime” value proposition. So the police unions suck up to those people and the governor sandbag the mayors or any government rep from a minority district with all the thin blue line crap. They continue to get away with the things they get away with because they are the hammer for the state.
    As opposed to teachers unions that mostly advocate on behalf of their at-risk kids.

  132. wj – I agree that the “thin blue line/blue brotherhood” mindset is a huge obstacle to overcome when it comes to correcting internal problems without outside review and transparency. That’s why I say that the big change that needs to happen needs to happen within the union.
    I have no interest in sheltering other members of my union from discipline or keeping ineffective teachers or predators in the system.
    The relationship that police unions have to their “management” at the government/administrative level is fraught in a very different way. We incentivize the police the way that we do in part because that is what the prosecutors and DAs need in order to get re-elected with their “tough on crime” value proposition. So the police unions suck up to those people and the governor sandbag the mayors or any government rep from a minority district with all the thin blue line crap. They continue to get away with the things they get away with because they are the hammer for the state.
    As opposed to teachers unions that mostly advocate on behalf of their at-risk kids.

  133. nous, sounds like we’re basically on the same page. However badly I expressed myself initially.

  134. nous, sounds like we’re basically on the same page. However badly I expressed myself initially.

  135. Another obstacle to holding police accountable is qualified immunity.
    “The killing of George Floyd by a Minneapolis police officer on Monday has reignited calls for national reforms to policing, including ending qualified immunity, a legal doctrine that civil liberties groups say has become a shield for grotesque police misconduct.
    While some of the actions that criminal justice advocates are calling for—such as national use-of-force standards and limiting the power of police unions—would require large amounts of political capital, the issue of qualified immunity happens to be before the Supreme Court right now.
    …
    Qualified immunity, created by the Supreme Court in the 1970s, shields police and other government officials from liability in civil rights lawsuits when the illegality of their actions was not “clearly established” at the time of the offense.”
    The Supreme Court Has a Chance To End Qualified Immunity and Prevent Cases Like George Floyd’s: The Supreme Court could announce as early as Monday that it’s revisiting qualified immunity, a doctrine that shields rotten cops from civil rights lawsuits.

  136. Another obstacle to holding police accountable is qualified immunity.
    “The killing of George Floyd by a Minneapolis police officer on Monday has reignited calls for national reforms to policing, including ending qualified immunity, a legal doctrine that civil liberties groups say has become a shield for grotesque police misconduct.
    While some of the actions that criminal justice advocates are calling for—such as national use-of-force standards and limiting the power of police unions—would require large amounts of political capital, the issue of qualified immunity happens to be before the Supreme Court right now.
    …
    Qualified immunity, created by the Supreme Court in the 1970s, shields police and other government officials from liability in civil rights lawsuits when the illegality of their actions was not “clearly established” at the time of the offense.”
    The Supreme Court Has a Chance To End Qualified Immunity and Prevent Cases Like George Floyd’s: The Supreme Court could announce as early as Monday that it’s revisiting qualified immunity, a doctrine that shields rotten cops from civil rights lawsuits.

  137. With all the events of recent months, weeks, days, I see full employment for some time to come for trial laywers…

  138. With all the events of recent months, weeks, days, I see full employment for some time to come for trial laywers…

  141. With all the events of recent months, weeks, days, I see full employment for some time to come for trial laywers…
    LOL…the entire edifice of the glibertarian “watchman state” is predicated on the absurd notion that just about any ‘wrong’ can be righted via resort to lawsuit or other civil action with the “watchman state” just “calling balls and strikes”.
    Glibertarians may be heard, but should not be taken seriously.

  142. With all the events of recent months, weeks, days, I see full employment for some time to come for trial laywers…
    LOL…the entire edifice of the glibertarian “watchman state” is predicated on the absurd notion that just about any ‘wrong’ can be righted via resort to lawsuit or other civil action with the “watchman state” just “calling balls and strikes”.
    Glibertarians may be heard, but should not be taken seriously.

  143. The trend to militarization accelerated, if not really began, when the gangs in various cities started having military weapons.
    Then the question seems to turn on implementing public policy to mitigate the felt need of some to join and/or participate in gangs, no?
    I wonder what such policies could look like?
    Gosh or golly gee.

  144. The trend to militarization accelerated, if not really began, when the gangs in various cities started having military weapons.
    Then the question seems to turn on implementing public policy to mitigate the felt need of some to join and/or participate in gangs, no?
    I wonder what such policies could look like?
    Gosh or golly gee.

  145. bobbyp – my comment on facebook today:
    As a UC-AFT union member, I’m hoping that my AFL-CIO associates in the police unions take this moment to bend their unions’ attention towards necessary internal work for racial justice and reform. A union can do this and protect its members against unfair labor practices at the same time.
    If not now, when?

  146. bobbyp – my comment on facebook today:
    As a UC-AFT union member, I’m hoping that my AFL-CIO associates in the police unions take this moment to bend their unions’ attention towards necessary internal work for racial justice and reform. A union can do this and protect its members against unfair labor practices at the same time.
    If not now, when?

  147. A union can do this and protect its members against unfair labor practices at the same time.
    Yes, it could. And should. But is there any indication that, in this case, it will?

  148. A union can do this and protect its members against unfair labor practices at the same time.
    Yes, it could. And should. But is there any indication that, in this case, it will?

  149. So, Ann Coulter gets what she wants, wj. I have no doubt this will play very well indeed with half the country.

  150. So, Ann Coulter gets what she wants, wj. I have no doubt this will play very well indeed with half the country.

  151. I’ve got some union experience here, which I think is interesting because it comes with a number of other challenges and I have some thoughts, but no time to set them out very clearly. However, this LGM post
    https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/06/what-to-do-about-police-unions
    has a number of good points. Especially provocative is this
    Third, the labor movement is not about justice. It’s about two sides with sometimes divergent interests sitting down and bargaining.

  152. I’ve got some union experience here, which I think is interesting because it comes with a number of other challenges and I have some thoughts, but no time to set them out very clearly. However, this LGM post
    https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/06/what-to-do-about-police-unions
    has a number of good points. Especially provocative is this
    Third, the labor movement is not about justice. It’s about two sides with sometimes divergent interests sitting down and bargaining.

  153. nous….We agree, esp. your 4:55 above. My “lunatic” reference was pure sarcasm.
    Thanks.
    It’s pretty amazing though to see folks crap on police unions as “too powerful” and “overly protecting of their members”. I’d ask people espousing such views, “Wouldn’t you like an organization that went to bat against your asshole boss and stood up for your interest the way these unions do?”
    Loomis was exploring the very issues you raise.

  154. nous….We agree, esp. your 4:55 above. My “lunatic” reference was pure sarcasm.
    Thanks.
    It’s pretty amazing though to see folks crap on police unions as “too powerful” and “overly protecting of their members”. I’d ask people espousing such views, “Wouldn’t you like an organization that went to bat against your asshole boss and stood up for your interest the way these unions do?”
    Loomis was exploring the very issues you raise.

  155. “Wouldn’t you like an organization that went to bat against your asshole boss and stood up for your interest the way these unions do?”
    In a word, yes. Provided it didn’t insist on going to bat for those who were guilty of misconduct. Which, all too often, police unions have.
    Also, it occurs to me that, with a bit less fanatical opposition to letting anything come out about disciplinary proceedings, it might be possible to act against those bosses who abuse the system, too. Somebody who repeatedly makes complaints that are found to be unjustified might have some explaining to do.

  156. “Wouldn’t you like an organization that went to bat against your asshole boss and stood up for your interest the way these unions do?”
    In a word, yes. Provided it didn’t insist on going to bat for those who were guilty of misconduct. Which, all too often, police unions have.
    Also, it occurs to me that, with a bit less fanatical opposition to letting anything come out about disciplinary proceedings, it might be possible to act against those bosses who abuse the system, too. Somebody who repeatedly makes complaints that are found to be unjustified might have some explaining to do.

  157. In a word, yes. Provided it didn’t insist on going to bat for those who were guilty of misconduct. Which, all too often, police unions have.
    Don’t most union agreements with their members require the union to take the members’ side until such time as regular due process has been completed? It’s not just police unions that look bad in such cases; professional sports players unions have ended up defending assholes as well.

  158. In a word, yes. Provided it didn’t insist on going to bat for those who were guilty of misconduct. Which, all too often, police unions have.
    Don’t most union agreements with their members require the union to take the members’ side until such time as regular due process has been completed? It’s not just police unions that look bad in such cases; professional sports players unions have ended up defending assholes as well.

  159. Provided it didn’t insist on going to bat for those who were guilty of misconduct.
    Even Herman Goering had a defense attorney.
    Who get’s to decide? That’s the crux here. One way to go is to institutionalize a strong and generally fair labor-boss grievance procedure that ensures the worker gets a fair shake, or do we surrender to the grievances of the ethno-nationalist racist industrial hurt feelings complex fanned by conservative propaganda that demands the subjugation of non-whites of all stripes and a heavy handed ‘war on crime’ to match?
    Can we go “too far” either way? Perhaps. But we have yet to fully institutionalize the first option.
    As somebody else here asked, “If not now, when?”

  160. Provided it didn’t insist on going to bat for those who were guilty of misconduct.
    Even Herman Goering had a defense attorney.
    Who get’s to decide? That’s the crux here. One way to go is to institutionalize a strong and generally fair labor-boss grievance procedure that ensures the worker gets a fair shake, or do we surrender to the grievances of the ethno-nationalist racist industrial hurt feelings complex fanned by conservative propaganda that demands the subjugation of non-whites of all stripes and a heavy handed ‘war on crime’ to match?
    Can we go “too far” either way? Perhaps. But we have yet to fully institutionalize the first option.
    As somebody else here asked, “If not now, when?”

  161. Don’t most union agreements with their members require the union to take the members’ side until such time as regular due process has been completed?
    It’s one thing to provide an advocate for someone who has been accused. I submit that it’s a quite different thing to force the due process to stop. Which is more like what we see.

  162. Don’t most union agreements with their members require the union to take the members’ side until such time as regular due process has been completed?
    It’s one thing to provide an advocate for someone who has been accused. I submit that it’s a quite different thing to force the due process to stop. Which is more like what we see.

  163. What’s going through Derek Chauvin’s mind now, beyond having taken another man’s life and seeing the global unrest he’s ignited because of it? What is that like?

  164. What’s going through Derek Chauvin’s mind now, beyond having taken another man’s life and seeing the global unrest he’s ignited because of it? What is that like?

  165. This past weekend should be a good test of the result of ending lockdown with people out in the streets, screaming and yelling, coughing and sneezing from teargas and smoke, and being crammed into jails.

  166. This past weekend should be a good test of the result of ending lockdown with people out in the streets, screaming and yelling, coughing and sneezing from teargas and smoke, and being crammed into jails.

  167. What’s going through Derek Chauvin’s mind now, …
    A bit of bad news/good news for him is that his wife has filed for divorce. But she doesn’t want spousal support.

  168. What’s going through Derek Chauvin’s mind now, …
    A bit of bad news/good news for him is that his wife has filed for divorce. But she doesn’t want spousal support.

  169. What’s going through Derek Chauvin’s mind now
    The man who killed Medgar Evers in 1963 and was finally convicted of it in 1994 and received a life sentence was interviewed in prison. The interviewer asked him how he felt about finally being brought to justice.
    “That nigger is still dead,” he said, and laughed.
    That’s how Derek Chauvin feels right now.

  170. What’s going through Derek Chauvin’s mind now
    The man who killed Medgar Evers in 1963 and was finally convicted of it in 1994 and received a life sentence was interviewed in prison. The interviewer asked him how he felt about finally being brought to justice.
    “That nigger is still dead,” he said, and laughed.
    That’s how Derek Chauvin feels right now.

  171. Chauvin’s wife also says, in the divorce finling, that she wants to change her last name. Not too surprising, I guess.

  172. Chauvin’s wife also says, in the divorce finling, that she wants to change her last name. Not too surprising, I guess.

  173. What’s going through Derek Chauvin’s mind now
    If I had to make a guess, I’d guess that he probably feels sorry for himself, like he is the victim in all of this.
    That said, I really have no idea, and I’m not sure I want to know.

  174. What’s going through Derek Chauvin’s mind now
    If I had to make a guess, I’d guess that he probably feels sorry for himself, like he is the victim in all of this.
    That said, I really have no idea, and I’m not sure I want to know.

  177. When I re-read what I wrote, I’m not sure it’s entirely clear. The real question is what is it like to know that all the hell breaking lose across the country and in other parts of the world is because of what you did? A little over a week ago, the guy was a nobody like just about everyone else. Now he’s the face of police brutality and racism the world over and the focus of the rage of millions of people. That has to be some kind of mindf*ck. (Not that I feel sorry for him. I just find it interesting.)

  178. When I re-read what I wrote, I’m not sure it’s entirely clear. The real question is what is it like to know that all the hell breaking lose across the country and in other parts of the world is because of what you did? A little over a week ago, the guy was a nobody like just about everyone else. Now he’s the face of police brutality and racism the world over and the focus of the rage of millions of people. That has to be some kind of mindf*ck. (Not that I feel sorry for him. I just find it interesting.)

  179. Now he’s the face of police brutality and racism the world over
    I’m guessing he is particularly unhappy to be considered the face of racism. Considering his wife of 10 years (who is filing for divorce) is Laotian. Racist when it comes to blacks, perhaps. But racist in general? Perhaps not entirely.

  180. Now he’s the face of police brutality and racism the world over
    I’m guessing he is particularly unhappy to be considered the face of racism. Considering his wife of 10 years (who is filing for divorce) is Laotian. Racist when it comes to blacks, perhaps. But racist in general? Perhaps not entirely.

  181. A little over a week ago, the guy was a nobody like just about everyone else.
    Welcome to the Internet Age where even nobodies have a good chance of 15 minutes or more of fame/infamy. In the past, this kind of thing usually didn’t make it beyond local news if even that.

  182. A little over a week ago, the guy was a nobody like just about everyone else.
    Welcome to the Internet Age where even nobodies have a good chance of 15 minutes or more of fame/infamy. In the past, this kind of thing usually didn’t make it beyond local news if even that.

  183. To McKinney’s point about police unions (which seems to be a developing talking point on the right), it’s hard to strike a good balance between protecting union members from unfair retaliation and serving the needs of the public.
    Is it relevant that this is a talking point on the right and not across the board?
    What’s going through Derek Chauvin’s mind now
    My guess: he’s probably kicking himself in the ass for not having done what he did in private.

  184. To McKinney’s point about police unions (which seems to be a developing talking point on the right), it’s hard to strike a good balance between protecting union members from unfair retaliation and serving the needs of the public.
    Is it relevant that this is a talking point on the right and not across the board?
    What’s going through Derek Chauvin’s mind now
    My guess: he’s probably kicking himself in the ass for not having done what he did in private.

  185. McKinneyTexas – Is it relevant that this is a talking point on the right and not across the board?
    Yes, it’s relevant, because it fits in with the larger strategy of dismantling union protections. Any legislation that gets taken up in the name of police reform will target the privacy rights of public employee unions more broadly. And this will mean that people like me will end up spending time fighting against the legislation when I’d rather be working to enact more restrictive and enforceable use-of-force guidelines that directly address the problem rather than hurting all unions for the sins of the police.

  186. McKinneyTexas – Is it relevant that this is a talking point on the right and not across the board?
    Yes, it’s relevant, because it fits in with the larger strategy of dismantling union protections. Any legislation that gets taken up in the name of police reform will target the privacy rights of public employee unions more broadly. And this will mean that people like me will end up spending time fighting against the legislation when I’d rather be working to enact more restrictive and enforceable use-of-force guidelines that directly address the problem rather than hurting all unions for the sins of the police.

  187. Yes, it’s relevant, because it fits in with the larger strategy of dismantling union protections.
    But what about the problem of bad cops being protected by their unions–why isn’t that something the that only the right seems to be concerned with?
    Any legislation that gets taken up in the name of police reform will target the privacy rights of public employee unions more broadly.
    Which privacy rights in particular are taxpayer-funded employees owed that are (1) legitimate and (2) in danger? Because, ISTM, that public employees competence, attendance, work ethic, etc ought to be known to the taxpayers who are–not to put too fine a point on it–paying their salaries–why shouldn’t this be public record?
    And this will mean that people like me will end up spending time fighting against the legislation when I’d rather be working to enact more restrictive and enforceable use-of-force guidelines that directly address the problem rather than hurting all unions for the sins of the police.
    You can’t fight bad legislation and contend for good legislation at the same time?

  188. Yes, it’s relevant, because it fits in with the larger strategy of dismantling union protections.
    But what about the problem of bad cops being protected by their unions–why isn’t that something the that only the right seems to be concerned with?
    Any legislation that gets taken up in the name of police reform will target the privacy rights of public employee unions more broadly.
    Which privacy rights in particular are taxpayer-funded employees owed that are (1) legitimate and (2) in danger? Because, ISTM, that public employees competence, attendance, work ethic, etc ought to be known to the taxpayers who are–not to put too fine a point on it–paying their salaries–why shouldn’t this be public record?
    And this will mean that people like me will end up spending time fighting against the legislation when I’d rather be working to enact more restrictive and enforceable use-of-force guidelines that directly address the problem rather than hurting all unions for the sins of the police.
    You can’t fight bad legislation and contend for good legislation at the same time?

  191. Not going to lend my attention to a threadjack.
    Threadjack? Really? Then why didn’t you just say it was irrelevant in the first place. Seems to me this is one of the many roads down which partisans on either side decline to go since they usually meet themselves coming.
    However, there is an open thread around here somewhere, so I’ll re-ask the questions of you there.

  192. Not going to lend my attention to a threadjack.
    Threadjack? Really? Then why didn’t you just say it was irrelevant in the first place. Seems to me this is one of the many roads down which partisans on either side decline to go since they usually meet themselves coming.
    However, there is an open thread around here somewhere, so I’ll re-ask the questions of you there.

  193. I submit that it’s a quite different thing to force the due process to stop.
    Really? How does that happen? Cite some examples. How did it come to be so?
    We have public policies that allows police to engage in state sanctioned violence. Our governments all all levels arms them to the teeth. That is errs so often on the side of needless brutality is a feature, not a bug. This is what “law and order” types have long demanded and support.
    In an important sense, this really has nothing to do with “unions”.
    You want to evaluate a real causal force? Here’s a clue: It’s a word that starts with “r”.

  194. I submit that it’s a quite different thing to force the due process to stop.
    Really? How does that happen? Cite some examples. How did it come to be so?
    We have public policies that allows police to engage in state sanctioned violence. Our governments all all levels arms them to the teeth. That is errs so often on the side of needless brutality is a feature, not a bug. This is what “law and order” types have long demanded and support.
    In an important sense, this really has nothing to do with “unions”.
    You want to evaluate a real causal force? Here’s a clue: It’s a word that starts with “r”.

  195. This is what “law and order” types have long demanded and support.
    They have supported it as long as it is being directed against others. But the minute it might be directed against them? Cue the 2nd Amendment cries.

  196. This is what “law and order” types have long demanded and support.
    They have supported it as long as it is being directed against others. But the minute it might be directed against them? Cue the 2nd Amendment cries.

  197. Public employee unions have a conflict of interest that private employee unions don’t. They and their members contribute to, campaign, and vote for their bosses. Or the people who pick their bosses.

  198. Public employee unions have a conflict of interest that private employee unions don’t. They and their members contribute to, campaign, and vote for their bosses. Or the people who pick their bosses.

  199. I’ve watched decades of candidates fight over who is the law and order candidate. This isnt about law and order or about unions. This is about policemen not being held accountable departmentally for doing their jobs unacceptably.
    It seems each offending officer(where wrong doing is clear) has a history that makes the incident predictable. The systemic excusing of those acts enables the ultimate death. The union defending the officer is not an excuse for him still being there. His boss should be culpable with him.
    Just my take.

  200. I’ve watched decades of candidates fight over who is the law and order candidate. This isnt about law and order or about unions. This is about policemen not being held accountable departmentally for doing their jobs unacceptably.
    It seems each offending officer(where wrong doing is clear) has a history that makes the incident predictable. The systemic excusing of those acts enables the ultimate death. The union defending the officer is not an excuse for him still being there. His boss should be culpable with him.
    Just my take.

  201. Often, when bad cops get fired, their departments are forced to take them back. Or they move on to other jurisdictions.

  202. Often, when bad cops get fired, their departments are forced to take them back. Or they move on to other jurisdictions.

  209. Nigel, really terrific piece. All of it, but the following really killed, partly because of the telling revelations about Pence, Pompeo and particularly Barr, but partly because of the rationale which we have even heard right here:
    “My side might be flawed, but the political opposition is much worse.” When Marshal Philippe Pétain, the leader of collaborationist France, took over the Vichy government, he did so in the name of the restoration of a France that he believed had been lost.
    ***
    By Pétain’s reckoning, collaboration with the Germans was not merely an embarrassing necessity. It was crucial, because it gave patriots the ability to fight the real enemy: the French parliamentarians, socialists, anarchists, Jews, and other assorted leftists and democrats who, he believed, were undermining the nation, robbing it of its vitality, destroying its essence. “Rather Hitler than Blum,” the saying went—Blum having been France’s socialist (and Jewish) prime minister in the late 1930s. One Vichy minister, Pierre Laval, famously declared that he hoped Germany would conquer all of Europe. Otherwise, he asserted, “Bolshevism would tomorrow establish itself everywhere.”
    ***
    The three most important members of Trump’s Cabinet—Vice President Mike Pence, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, and Attorney General William Barr—are all profoundly shaped by Vichyite apocalyptic thinking. All three are clever enough to understand what Trumpism really means, that it has nothing to do with God or faith, that it is self-serving, greedy, and unpatriotic. Nevertheless, a former member of the administration (one of the few who did decide to resign) told me that both Pence and Pompeo “have convinced themselves that they are in a biblical moment.” All of the things they care about—outlawing abortion and same-sex marriage, and (though this is never said out loud) maintaining a white majority in America—are under threat. Time is growing short. They believe that “we are approaching the Rapture, and this is a moment of deep religious significance.” Barr, in a speech at Notre Dame, has also described his belief that “militant secularists” are destroying America, that “irreligion and secular values are being forced on people of faith.” Whatever evil Trump does, whatever he damages or destroys, at least he enables Barr, Pence, and Pompeo to save America from a far worse fate. If you are convinced we are living in the End Times, then anything the president does can be forgiven.

  210. Nigel, really terrific piece. All of it, but the following really killed, partly because of the telling revelations about Pence, Pompeo and particularly Barr, but partly because of the rationale which we have even heard right here:
    “My side might be flawed, but the political opposition is much worse.” When Marshal Philippe Pétain, the leader of collaborationist France, took over the Vichy government, he did so in the name of the restoration of a France that he believed had been lost.
    ***
    By Pétain’s reckoning, collaboration with the Germans was not merely an embarrassing necessity. It was crucial, because it gave patriots the ability to fight the real enemy: the French parliamentarians, socialists, anarchists, Jews, and other assorted leftists and democrats who, he believed, were undermining the nation, robbing it of its vitality, destroying its essence. “Rather Hitler than Blum,” the saying went—Blum having been France’s socialist (and Jewish) prime minister in the late 1930s. One Vichy minister, Pierre Laval, famously declared that he hoped Germany would conquer all of Europe. Otherwise, he asserted, “Bolshevism would tomorrow establish itself everywhere.”
    ***
    The three most important members of Trump’s Cabinet—Vice President Mike Pence, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, and Attorney General William Barr—are all profoundly shaped by Vichyite apocalyptic thinking. All three are clever enough to understand what Trumpism really means, that it has nothing to do with God or faith, that it is self-serving, greedy, and unpatriotic. Nevertheless, a former member of the administration (one of the few who did decide to resign) told me that both Pence and Pompeo “have convinced themselves that they are in a biblical moment.” All of the things they care about—outlawing abortion and same-sex marriage, and (though this is never said out loud) maintaining a white majority in America—are under threat. Time is growing short. They believe that “we are approaching the Rapture, and this is a moment of deep religious significance.” Barr, in a speech at Notre Dame, has also described his belief that “militant secularists” are destroying America, that “irreligion and secular values are being forced on people of faith.” Whatever evil Trump does, whatever he damages or destroys, at least he enables Barr, Pence, and Pompeo to save America from a far worse fate. If you are convinced we are living in the End Times, then anything the president does can be forgiven.

  211. If you are convinced we are living in the End Times, then anything the president does can be forgiven.
    At a certain point in my progress from fundamentalist to whatever the hell it is I am now, I wondered if the whole Book of Revelation apocalyptic thing was a kind of circular, self-referential, self-fulfilling thing.
    The book was about hell visited on earth, by people who were drawn to the account of hell visited on earth, by themselves, foretold 20 centuries in advance. A weird fatal attraction kind of thing, where people are drawn to burning down the world, by the foretold account of them burning down the world.
    I don’t really think that anymore, but now and then I wonder.
    In any case, the fascination with apocalyptic mayhem is kind of a tell. It seems to me.

  212. If you are convinced we are living in the End Times, then anything the president does can be forgiven.
    At a certain point in my progress from fundamentalist to whatever the hell it is I am now, I wondered if the whole Book of Revelation apocalyptic thing was a kind of circular, self-referential, self-fulfilling thing.
    The book was about hell visited on earth, by people who were drawn to the account of hell visited on earth, by themselves, foretold 20 centuries in advance. A weird fatal attraction kind of thing, where people are drawn to burning down the world, by the foretold account of them burning down the world.
    I don’t really think that anymore, but now and then I wonder.
    In any case, the fascination with apocalyptic mayhem is kind of a tell. It seems to me.

  213. They always see themselves as the faithful remnant, and could never see themselves as the believers who were deceived into following the Antichrist.
    Same way that they always argue that God is powerful enough to bend the heart of Trump, but do not for a second consider that the same must be true of Hillary Clinton as well.

  214. They always see themselves as the faithful remnant, and could never see themselves as the believers who were deceived into following the Antichrist.
    Same way that they always argue that God is powerful enough to bend the heart of Trump, but do not for a second consider that the same must be true of Hillary Clinton as well.

  217. At least one less turkey in Congress…
    “It is fitting that King’s political career will effectively come to an end in a week marked by nationwide protests against racial discrimination by law enforcement. King has a long history of making what Vanity Fair once called “barely veiled” statements in support of white nationalism. He has suggested that black Americans would be more easily able to afford abortions if they stopped buying iPhones, and for years he displayed a Confederate flag in his congressional office—which doesn’t even make historical sense, since Iowa did not join the confederacy.”
    Nativist Congressman Steve King Loses Republican Primary: Good riddance to the racist, anti-immigrant congressman from Iowa.

  218. At least one less turkey in Congress…
    “It is fitting that King’s political career will effectively come to an end in a week marked by nationwide protests against racial discrimination by law enforcement. King has a long history of making what Vanity Fair once called “barely veiled” statements in support of white nationalism. He has suggested that black Americans would be more easily able to afford abortions if they stopped buying iPhones, and for years he displayed a Confederate flag in his congressional office—which doesn’t even make historical sense, since Iowa did not join the confederacy.”
    Nativist Congressman Steve King Loses Republican Primary: Good riddance to the racist, anti-immigrant congressman from Iowa.

  219. Now let’s hope that he does not get the message but tries either a write-in or third party campaign. 😉

  220. Now let’s hope that he does not get the message but tries either a write-in or third party campaign. 😉

  225. Pretty sure that Revelations was just from some dudes scribbling down their musings during a long weekend of weed, wine, and magic mushrooms.
    Early edition Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers, also, too.

  226. Pretty sure that Revelations was just from some dudes scribbling down their musings during a long weekend of weed, wine, and magic mushrooms.
    Early edition Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers, also, too.

  227. A weird fatal attraction kind of thing, where people are drawn to burning down the world, by the foretold account of them burning down the world.
    Trump’s apocalyptic vision of American carnage, as he expressed it at the RNC convention and during his inauguration speech, seems to be fulfilling itself, so … yeah.

  228. A weird fatal attraction kind of thing, where people are drawn to burning down the world, by the foretold account of them burning down the world.
    Trump’s apocalyptic vision of American carnage, as he expressed it at the RNC convention and during his inauguration speech, seems to be fulfilling itself, so … yeah.

  229. Robert Hendrickson
    Rector at St Philip’s Episcopal Church in Tucson, Ariz:
    This is an awful man, waving a book he hasn’t read, in front of a church he doesn’t attend, invoking laws he doesn’t understand, against fellow Americans he sees as enemies, wielding a military he dodged serving, to protect power he gained via accepting foreign interference, exploiting fear and anger he loves to stoke, after failing to address a pandemic he was warned about, and building it all on a bed of constant lies and childish inanity.
    I think that’s pretty clear and complete.

  230. Robert Hendrickson
    Rector at St Philip’s Episcopal Church in Tucson, Ariz:
    This is an awful man, waving a book he hasn’t read, in front of a church he doesn’t attend, invoking laws he doesn’t understand, against fellow Americans he sees as enemies, wielding a military he dodged serving, to protect power he gained via accepting foreign interference, exploiting fear and anger he loves to stoke, after failing to address a pandemic he was warned about, and building it all on a bed of constant lies and childish inanity.
    I think that’s pretty clear and complete.

  231. By the way, I’d hate the extracts I posted from Nigel’s Atlantic Anne Applebaum piece to stop anybody reading the whole thing. I only extracted one tiny aspect; the whole article examines a much broader question of collaboration, and historical examples of who collaborates and who does not, with fascinating and informative illustration of the workings of the slippery slope. It’s really worth reading in its entirety.

  232. By the way, I’d hate the extracts I posted from Nigel’s Atlantic Anne Applebaum piece to stop anybody reading the whole thing. I only extracted one tiny aspect; the whole article examines a much broader question of collaboration, and historical examples of who collaborates and who does not, with fascinating and informative illustration of the workings of the slippery slope. It’s really worth reading in its entirety.

  233. Vichyites and also Quislings. From Winston Churchill in 1941, “A vile race of Quislings—to use a new word which will carry the scorn of mankind down the centuries—is hired to fawn upon the conqueror, to collaborate in his designs and to enforce his rule upon their fellow countrymen while grovelling low themselves.”

  234. Vichyites and also Quislings. From Winston Churchill in 1941, “A vile race of Quislings—to use a new word which will carry the scorn of mankind down the centuries—is hired to fawn upon the conqueror, to collaborate in his designs and to enforce his rule upon their fellow countrymen while grovelling low themselves.”

  235. Pretty sure that Revelations was just from some dudes scribbling down their musings during a long weekend of weed, wine, and magic mushrooms.
    Heavy on the ‘shrooms.
    There was an experiment done, some years ago. They took written sufff (journal articles, as I recall) and had them translated. And then translated again. And eventually translated back to the original language. They found that, after multiple translations, the articles were substantially better and more clearly written. No change to the substance; just easier to understand.
    It seems each translator tried to make his work as clear as possible. And the sum of those efforts was impressive. It says something about Revelations that even after multiple translations it is still basically incoherent.

  236. Pretty sure that Revelations was just from some dudes scribbling down their musings during a long weekend of weed, wine, and magic mushrooms.
    Heavy on the ‘shrooms.
    There was an experiment done, some years ago. They took written sufff (journal articles, as I recall) and had them translated. And then translated again. And eventually translated back to the original language. They found that, after multiple translations, the articles were substantially better and more clearly written. No change to the substance; just easier to understand.
    It seems each translator tried to make his work as clear as possible. And the sum of those efforts was impressive. It says something about Revelations that even after multiple translations it is still basically incoherent.

  237. On which (almost totally unrelated) note, I mention with joy that during a Burns Night celebration in Germany, when the haggis was brought in and normally they would recite Burns’s poem including the line “great chieftain o’ the puddin race”, apparently this was translated for the Germans present, and then translated back for the English attendees: “mighty Fuhrer of the sausage people”

  238. On which (almost totally unrelated) note, I mention with joy that during a Burns Night celebration in Germany, when the haggis was brought in and normally they would recite Burns’s poem including the line “great chieftain o’ the puddin race”, apparently this was translated for the Germans present, and then translated back for the English attendees: “mighty Fuhrer of the sausage people”

  239. Regarding Nigel’s post at 5:40, it appears that resignation letter may have had some effect:

    does not support the use of active-duty military forces in quelling countrywide unrest — a statement that puts him at odds with President Trump, who has threatened to send troops into U.S. cities.
    . . . Esper said the measure should be used only as a “last resort and only in the most urgent and dire of situations.”
    “We are not in one of those situations now,” he said. “I do not support invoking the Insurrection Act.”

  240. Regarding Nigel’s post at 5:40, it appears that resignation letter may have had some effect:

    does not support the use of active-duty military forces in quelling countrywide unrest — a statement that puts him at odds with President Trump, who has threatened to send troops into U.S. cities.
    . . . Esper said the measure should be used only as a “last resort and only in the most urgent and dire of situations.”
    “We are not in one of those situations now,” he said. “I do not support invoking the Insurrection Act.”

  243. This thread seems old enough… Why is it that in military coups it always seems to be the colonels that are the ringleaders, not the generals?

  244. This thread seems old enough… Why is it that in military coups it always seems to be the colonels that are the ringleaders, not the generals?

  245. 1) Generals already have power. Colonels don’t have nearly as much, but think they should.
    2) A lot of colonels are guys who are never going to be generals. They just don’t have what it takes to do the job. But while they realize they aren’t going to make it to the top, they can’t accept that there are good reasons why not. So they start a coup to get what they think, usually incorrectly, they deserve.

  246. 1) Generals already have power. Colonels don’t have nearly as much, but think they should.
    2) A lot of colonels are guys who are never going to be generals. They just don’t have what it takes to do the job. But while they realize they aren’t going to make it to the top, they can’t accept that there are good reasons why not. So they start a coup to get what they think, usually incorrectly, they deserve.

  249. Moment approx #731 when the 25th Amendment could very legitimately be invoked.
    POTUS speaking today about the better than expected job figures, (having just been discussing the need to dominate the streets), and talking of George Floyd:
    “Hopefully George is looking down right now and saying this is a great thing that’s happening for our country, it’s a great day for him, it’s a great day for…everybody. This is a great day for everybody. This is a great, great day, in terms of … equality…”
    (I took this down verbatim from seeing him speaking on TV)

  250. Moment approx #731 when the 25th Amendment could very legitimately be invoked.
    POTUS speaking today about the better than expected job figures, (having just been discussing the need to dominate the streets), and talking of George Floyd:
    “Hopefully George is looking down right now and saying this is a great thing that’s happening for our country, it’s a great day for him, it’s a great day for…everybody. This is a great day for everybody. This is a great, great day, in terms of … equality…”
    (I took this down verbatim from seeing him speaking on TV)

  251. NY judge suspends habeas corpus for arrests in the Bronx, Brooklyn, and Manhattan.
    https://lawandcrime.com/george-floyd-death/aoc-slams-nyc-judge-for-suspension-of-habeas-corpus-in-response-to-george-floyd-protests/
    This is exactly the sort of use of the State of Exception that I started warning about a century ago (in Covid-19-years) when I started posting the quotes from Carl Schmitt. Barr, Esper, and Pompeo all seem like they would be big fans of Schmitt if they have ever read him.
    Public discourse has been stripped down entirely to the friend/enemy distinction.

  252. NY judge suspends habeas corpus for arrests in the Bronx, Brooklyn, and Manhattan.
    https://lawandcrime.com/george-floyd-death/aoc-slams-nyc-judge-for-suspension-of-habeas-corpus-in-response-to-george-floyd-protests/
    This is exactly the sort of use of the State of Exception that I started warning about a century ago (in Covid-19-years) when I started posting the quotes from Carl Schmitt. Barr, Esper, and Pompeo all seem like they would be big fans of Schmitt if they have ever read him.
    Public discourse has been stripped down entirely to the friend/enemy distinction.

  253. I generally don’t have a great deal of use for AOC. But on this one she’s spot on. Suspending habeas corpus is directly contrary to what all those protesters are (correctly) calling for: equal justice and reformed police behavior.

  254. I generally don’t have a great deal of use for AOC. But on this one she’s spot on. Suspending habeas corpus is directly contrary to what all those protesters are (correctly) calling for: equal justice and reformed police behavior.

  255. Suffocation by cop and Covid-19. A good day for George:
    Kudlow will tell you these two events constitute animal spirited buy signals in the stock market.
    George, as he has now become known among stock market prognosticators, was asking the cop to let up with the knee on his windpipe so he could offer some profitable stock tips.
    If he could breathe, Joe Kernan would have George on CNBC to further juke stock prices.
    Cramer is constructing a new contrarion stock market indicator: the lower the oxygen levels in black lives bloodstreams, the higher the DOW can soar.
    Now, if the nearest asteroid can hit us smack dab in the kisser, we’ll could have an eternal bull market on our hands.
    As Carl Schmitt remarked: Let the trend be your friend, and don’t fight the FED, because the FED has a government paramilitary terrorist strike force at the ready to smother the short sellers.
    The Treasury Department is directly purchasing the means of production in the stock market with taxpayer dollars and newly printed currency.
    I’m fully invested in the market at the moment, but also ready to bail at the first sign of any improvement in equality and justice for all.
    Trickle down oxygen is what we need in this country.
    Back to oblivion for me.
    How many Antifa idiots are undercover FBI?

  256. Suffocation by cop and Covid-19. A good day for George:
    Kudlow will tell you these two events constitute animal spirited buy signals in the stock market.
    George, as he has now become known among stock market prognosticators, was asking the cop to let up with the knee on his windpipe so he could offer some profitable stock tips.
    If he could breathe, Joe Kernan would have George on CNBC to further juke stock prices.
    Cramer is constructing a new contrarion stock market indicator: the lower the oxygen levels in black lives bloodstreams, the higher the DOW can soar.
    Now, if the nearest asteroid can hit us smack dab in the kisser, we’ll could have an eternal bull market on our hands.
    As Carl Schmitt remarked: Let the trend be your friend, and don’t fight the FED, because the FED has a government paramilitary terrorist strike force at the ready to smother the short sellers.
    The Treasury Department is directly purchasing the means of production in the stock market with taxpayer dollars and newly printed currency.
    I’m fully invested in the market at the moment, but also ready to bail at the first sign of any improvement in equality and justice for all.
    Trickle down oxygen is what we need in this country.
    Back to oblivion for me.
    How many Antifa idiots are undercover FBI?

  259. But in this case, nous, there was no reason to avoid her. And your first posting doesn’t require subscribing in order to read — always a plus for me.

  260. But in this case, nous, there was no reason to avoid her. And your first posting doesn’t require subscribing in order to read — always a plus for me.

  263. and when two members of a riot squad were disciplined for pushing a peaceful septuagenarian to the ground, giving him a serious head injury, the other 57 snowflakes in the riot squad resigned from the team.

    All 57 of the members of the Buffalo Police Department’s Emergency Response Team resigned Friday from the unit which responds to riots and other crowd control situations, the president of the union that represents Buffalo police officers told The Buffalo News.
    Two law enforcement sources confirmed the resignations.
    Two members of the Emergency Response Team were suspended without pay late Thursday after they involved in pushing a 75-year-old protester to the ground as they were clearing the area in front of Buffalo City Hall at the emergency curfew. The Erie County District Attorney’s Office is investigating the incident. No charges have been filed.
    The Emergency Response Team members have not quit the police department, but have stepped down from the tactical unit, according to the sources.

    and to stay on topic:

    The union representing Buffalo police officers told its rank and file members Friday that the union would no longer pay for legal fees to defend police officers related to the protests which began Saturday in downtown Buffalo and have continued on and off, according to one source. The union is upset with the treatment of the two officers who were suspended Thursday.

    bust that union.

  264. and when two members of a riot squad were disciplined for pushing a peaceful septuagenarian to the ground, giving him a serious head injury, the other 57 snowflakes in the riot squad resigned from the team.

    All 57 of the members of the Buffalo Police Department’s Emergency Response Team resigned Friday from the unit which responds to riots and other crowd control situations, the president of the union that represents Buffalo police officers told The Buffalo News.
    Two law enforcement sources confirmed the resignations.
    Two members of the Emergency Response Team were suspended without pay late Thursday after they involved in pushing a 75-year-old protester to the ground as they were clearing the area in front of Buffalo City Hall at the emergency curfew. The Erie County District Attorney’s Office is investigating the incident. No charges have been filed.
    The Emergency Response Team members have not quit the police department, but have stepped down from the tactical unit, according to the sources.

    and to stay on topic:

    The union representing Buffalo police officers told its rank and file members Friday that the union would no longer pay for legal fees to defend police officers related to the protests which began Saturday in downtown Buffalo and have continued on and off, according to one source. The union is upset with the treatment of the two officers who were suspended Thursday.

    bust that union.

  265. “Now we’ll get to see how much damage has been done to the Federal court system. Since it is, after all, a pretty open and shut case.”
    Trump just has to push the case up to the Supremely Deplorable Five (Lawless John, Stripsearch, Token, Kav, and Squi) where they’ll shrug and toss it in the trash.

  266. “Now we’ll get to see how much damage has been done to the Federal court system. Since it is, after all, a pretty open and shut case.”
    Trump just has to push the case up to the Supremely Deplorable Five (Lawless John, Stripsearch, Token, Kav, and Squi) where they’ll shrug and toss it in the trash.

  267. The Ultra-Partisan Four, sure. But Roberts has been showing these little independent streaks from time to time.

  268. The Ultra-Partisan Four, sure. But Roberts has been showing these little independent streaks from time to time.

  269. Just to return to the original post for a second, folks might want to read through the rest of the Twitter feed there.
    Messiah Boss’ comments seem right on to me. The video clip of the young black woman having the shit beat out of her, by a cop with a baton, after she resisted another cop grabbing her breasts, also seems on point.
    I don’t really know WTF people expect black people to do anymore. Protest peacefully, and have the shit kicked out of you. Protest violently, and have the shit kicked out of you.
    Defend yourself when you’re accosted by random white assholes, and get shot. Explain to a police officer that you have a gun in the car – a legal gun, for which you have a license – and get shot. Pick up an air rifle in a sporting goods store and get shot.
    Black people in this country have *always* lived under the threat of violence from the rest of us. Violence, harassment, exclusion. Because they are black.
    The 45 year old and the 31 year old in the original video have basically given up on seeing any of that change in their lifetime. They want the 16 year to find a better way.
    What way have black people not already tried?
    It’s unfortunate that the protests about George Floyd’s murder have been accompanied by looting and destruction of property. But football teams losing championships are accompanied by looting and destruction of property. When I lived in Philly back in the day, New Year’s Day – every single New Year’s Day – was accompanied by looting and destruction of property by the Mummers who go on parade there every year.
    What is it going to take for Americans to stop treating black people like crap? How long are they supposed to wait? They’ve been here longer than most of the rest of us, and have been working their asses off for generations, and waiting for generations, for the rest of us to recognize them as human beings deserving of the most rudimentary consideration as such.
    Every damned city in this country could burn down to the ground, and it would not be fair judgement for what they have received from the rest of us.
    The debt we owe is immeasurable.
    I have no answer to any of this. Even getting people to recognize and acknowledge that there is a problem, and that they are complicit in it whether wittingly or not, is a bridge too far for most folks.
    400 years, and black people are still waiting for the rest of us to figure out that they’re just people, like the rest of us. That is a long fucking time.

  270. Just to return to the original post for a second, folks might want to read through the rest of the Twitter feed there.
    Messiah Boss’ comments seem right on to me. The video clip of the young black woman having the shit beat out of her, by a cop with a baton, after she resisted another cop grabbing her breasts, also seems on point.
    I don’t really know WTF people expect black people to do anymore. Protest peacefully, and have the shit kicked out of you. Protest violently, and have the shit kicked out of you.
    Defend yourself when you’re accosted by random white assholes, and get shot. Explain to a police officer that you have a gun in the car – a legal gun, for which you have a license – and get shot. Pick up an air rifle in a sporting goods store and get shot.
    Black people in this country have *always* lived under the threat of violence from the rest of us. Violence, harassment, exclusion. Because they are black.
    The 45 year old and the 31 year old in the original video have basically given up on seeing any of that change in their lifetime. They want the 16 year to find a better way.
    What way have black people not already tried?
    It’s unfortunate that the protests about George Floyd’s murder have been accompanied by looting and destruction of property. But football teams losing championships are accompanied by looting and destruction of property. When I lived in Philly back in the day, New Year’s Day – every single New Year’s Day – was accompanied by looting and destruction of property by the Mummers who go on parade there every year.
    What is it going to take for Americans to stop treating black people like crap? How long are they supposed to wait? They’ve been here longer than most of the rest of us, and have been working their asses off for generations, and waiting for generations, for the rest of us to recognize them as human beings deserving of the most rudimentary consideration as such.
    Every damned city in this country could burn down to the ground, and it would not be fair judgement for what they have received from the rest of us.
    The debt we owe is immeasurable.
    I have no answer to any of this. Even getting people to recognize and acknowledge that there is a problem, and that they are complicit in it whether wittingly or not, is a bridge too far for most folks.
    400 years, and black people are still waiting for the rest of us to figure out that they’re just people, like the rest of us. That is a long fucking time.

  273. James Baldwin – 1962
    “Long before the Negro child perceives this difference, and even longer before he understands it, he has begun to react to it, he has begun to be controlled by it. Every effort made by the child’s elders to prepare him for a fate from which they cannot protect him causes him secretly, in terror, to begin to await, without knowing that he is doing so, his mysterious and inexorable punishment. He must be “good” not only in order to please his parents and not only to avoid being punished by them; behind their authority stands another, nameless and impersonal, infinitely harder to please, and bottomlessly cruel. And this filters into the child’s consciousness through his parents’ tone of voice as he is being exhorted, punished, or loved; in the sudden, uncontrollable note of fear heard in his mother’s or his father’s voice when he has strayed beyond some particular boundary. He does not know what the boundary is, and he can get no explanation of it, which is frightening enough, but the fear he hears in the voices of his elders is more frightening still.”
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1962/11/17/letter-from-a-region-in-my-mind

  274. James Baldwin – 1962
    “Long before the Negro child perceives this difference, and even longer before he understands it, he has begun to react to it, he has begun to be controlled by it. Every effort made by the child’s elders to prepare him for a fate from which they cannot protect him causes him secretly, in terror, to begin to await, without knowing that he is doing so, his mysterious and inexorable punishment. He must be “good” not only in order to please his parents and not only to avoid being punished by them; behind their authority stands another, nameless and impersonal, infinitely harder to please, and bottomlessly cruel. And this filters into the child’s consciousness through his parents’ tone of voice as he is being exhorted, punished, or loved; in the sudden, uncontrollable note of fear heard in his mother’s or his father’s voice when he has strayed beyond some particular boundary. He does not know what the boundary is, and he can get no explanation of it, which is frightening enough, but the fear he hears in the voices of his elders is more frightening still.”
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1962/11/17/letter-from-a-region-in-my-mind

  275. And I thought this was eloquent, with more reference to James Baldwin, and further to our discussion of the unhelpfulness of the looting and the rioting, as opposed to the peaceful protesting. An extract:
    Like countless others this week, I find myself thinking of James Baldwin, and an old song that he quoted in a famous collection of his essays. That song, referring to the time in the Old Testament when the Earth was flooded as divine punishment, bore the following warning:
    God gave Noah the rainbow sign, no more water, the fire next time.
    As we look at the United States, at a map where all 50 states are united in protest against the murder of yet another black person by a police officer, we see that this time we have the fire: that the tears of grief have been replaced by the flames of rage.
    Some will argue that, in order to achieve a broader political goal, all this burning is unproductive, but in one sense they will be missing the point. For a long time, black people were only tolerated in the United States for so long as they were quite literally productive: for as long as they filled a basket with cotton, or chopped a pile of wood, or laid yet another section of track. In a country where black people were bought and sold for their ability to turn their efforts into end results, it might be said that there is something poetic and even political about rage for its own sake. If someone has a nail driven through their foot, it seems perverse to tell them that their scream was inappropriately loud.

  276. And I thought this was eloquent, with more reference to James Baldwin, and further to our discussion of the unhelpfulness of the looting and the rioting, as opposed to the peaceful protesting. An extract:
    Like countless others this week, I find myself thinking of James Baldwin, and an old song that he quoted in a famous collection of his essays. That song, referring to the time in the Old Testament when the Earth was flooded as divine punishment, bore the following warning:
    God gave Noah the rainbow sign, no more water, the fire next time.
    As we look at the United States, at a map where all 50 states are united in protest against the murder of yet another black person by a police officer, we see that this time we have the fire: that the tears of grief have been replaced by the flames of rage.
    Some will argue that, in order to achieve a broader political goal, all this burning is unproductive, but in one sense they will be missing the point. For a long time, black people were only tolerated in the United States for so long as they were quite literally productive: for as long as they filled a basket with cotton, or chopped a pile of wood, or laid yet another section of track. In a country where black people were bought and sold for their ability to turn their efforts into end results, it might be said that there is something poetic and even political about rage for its own sake. If someone has a nail driven through their foot, it seems perverse to tell them that their scream was inappropriately loud.

  279. Not just (“just”?!?) Commander of the Pacific Air Forces. He’s also been nominated to be Chief of Staff of the Air Force. Watching him speak, one can see why.
    Maybe, just maybe, some of his less aware troops will hear his words about his experiences and have their eyes opened. At least, it may keep some Air Force police from joining those trying to suppress the demonstrations.

  280. Not just (“just”?!?) Commander of the Pacific Air Forces. He’s also been nominated to be Chief of Staff of the Air Force. Watching him speak, one can see why.
    Maybe, just maybe, some of his less aware troops will hear his words about his experiences and have their eyes opened. At least, it may keep some Air Force police from joining those trying to suppress the demonstrations.

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