5/30/20: 7-day graphs updated to today.
5/29/20: New 7-day average graphs, just for Pro Bono if he’s still around. Older stuff below the fold.
5/24/20: Graphs below the fold have been updated to today (Worldometer data).
I don’t have time to update my own deaths-per-million comparison graph, but the OWID graph for selected countries is here, and you can of course tweak the list for your own purposes. Notable since last time: the UK has caught up with Italy (both with 542 acc’ to Worldometer), and the US is re-converging on Ireland. They were at about the same level when I started paying attention, then Ireland had something of a spike (you can see it in the graph), but now the difference is closing again.
5/20/20: Graphs of Worldometer’s daily death tally for US and UK added below the fold.
Leaving aside for the moment a discussion of the complexities, I thought I’d offer this graph of total deaths per million of population for selected countries. The data is from Our World of Data, which offers their full database for anyone to use freely — something I was unable to find on Worldometer.
We were talking a while back about deaths per million in different countries, and I’ve been wanting to make a graph of those numbers ever since. But without an actual database to work from, it was too tedious.
Tedious no more, because of OWID providing their data for the taking.
I am debating how far to take this project. If I keep it going, I’ll put a link in the sidebar.
Graphs for US and UK daily deaths, data from Worldometer, updated to 5/24/20:
Sorry the print is so small and the colors aren’t that easy to distinguish. Excel does most of the work, and my patience for fine-tuning is limited.
Germany’s curve is the one that maxes out at just below 100. South Korea and Japan are indistinguishable at the bottom. Italy is the highest; Belgium’s #s are higher, I believe, but I haven’t included it.
That the virus got going at different times in different countries matters somewhat, but I didn’t try to set a zero time point by country and then match the curves that way. Plus, a lot of time has now gone by for everyone, enough to give these curves some shape.
It sure looks like some of them are not going to catch up with others, assuming we do get a vaccine someday. If we don’t, well, the future is probably an even more foreign country than we can currently imagine.
Sorry the print is so small and the colors aren’t that easy to distinguish. Excel does most of the work, and my patience for fine-tuning is limited.
Germany’s curve is the one that maxes out at just below 100. South Korea and Japan are indistinguishable at the bottom. Italy is the highest; Belgium’s #s are higher, I believe, but I haven’t included it.
That the virus got going at different times in different countries matters somewhat, but I didn’t try to set a zero time point by country and then match the curves that way. Plus, a lot of time has now gone by for everyone, enough to give these curves some shape.
It sure looks like some of them are not going to catch up with others, assuming we do get a vaccine someday. If we don’t, well, the future is probably an even more foreign country than we can currently imagine.
I’m starting to worry about my eyes, because I’m finding it very difficult to work out which coloured line is which country using the key. As far as I know, I only have one very slight colourblindness: some kinds of sludgy green don’t look green to me. Doesn’t explain why I’m finding for example so many of the blue lines so similar on the actual graph. Is anybody else having this trouble?
I’m starting to worry about my eyes, because I’m finding it very difficult to work out which coloured line is which country using the key. As far as I know, I only have one very slight colourblindness: some kinds of sludgy green don’t look green to me. Doesn’t explain why I’m finding for example so many of the blue lines so similar on the actual graph. Is anybody else having this trouble?
If you click on the image, it will appear larger and more legible in a popup window.
If you click on the image, it will appear larger and more legible in a popup window.
Sorry Janie, I posted my comment before I saw any other comments! Charles, I tried that, it didn’t help. What seems to help a bit is magnifying the actual image without clicking on it. However, I do think my eyes need testing, but I have had to delay it because of lockdown. Janie’s link to Our World of Data dealt with the problem, because if you make your own selection of countries they helpfully tell you what each one is at the end of the line!
Sorry Janie, I posted my comment before I saw any other comments! Charles, I tried that, it didn’t help. What seems to help a bit is magnifying the actual image without clicking on it. However, I do think my eyes need testing, but I have had to delay it because of lockdown. Janie’s link to Our World of Data dealt with the problem, because if you make your own selection of countries they helpfully tell you what each one is at the end of the line!
List of countries top to bottom at the right edge of the graph:
Italy
UK
France
Sweden
Netherlands
Ireland
US
Switzerland
Germany
Norway
Japan
South Korea
List of countries top to bottom at the right edge of the graph:
Italy
UK
France
Sweden
Netherlands
Ireland
US
Switzerland
Germany
Norway
Japan
South Korea
Thanks Janie. We’re second best! (as Trump would no doubt say, if he were me. Actually, scratch that-second best is still a loser)
Thanks Janie. We’re second best! (as Trump would no doubt say, if he were me. Actually, scratch that-second best is still a loser)
Don’t know if you know — in Chrome or Firefox you should be able to magnify what the browser is showing by typing control and the plus key simultaneously, or make things smaller by typing control and minus.
That doesn’t help with the colors, though.
Don’t know if you know — in Chrome or Firefox you should be able to magnify what the browser is showing by typing control and the plus key simultaneously, or make things smaller by typing control and minus.
That doesn’t help with the colors, though.
I use Chrome, and I didn’t know that, I’ll remember it if I ever need it. But I can enlarge the image on my laptop by “stretching” my fingers on the typepad.
I use Chrome, and I didn’t know that, I’ll remember it if I ever need it. But I can enlarge the image on my laptop by “stretching” my fingers on the typepad.
We’re second best! (as Trump would no doubt say, if he were me. Actually, scratch that-second best is still a loser)
Don’t lose hope! Italy’s curve is flattening a little. But the UK’s is still driving up linearly. (As are Sweden and the United States.) So you could win yet.
We’re second best! (as Trump would no doubt say, if he were me. Actually, scratch that-second best is still a loser)
Don’t lose hope! Italy’s curve is flattening a little. But the UK’s is still driving up linearly. (As are Sweden and the United States.) So you could win yet.
I heard somewhere that San Marino’s #’s (as a fraction of population) are horribly, horribly bad. Which was blamed on “small sample size”, but having visited a couple of times, seemed to me like it had a rather high population density.
There’s going to be so very many small-scale tragedies buried in the larger ones.
I heard somewhere that San Marino’s #’s (as a fraction of population) are horribly, horribly bad. Which was blamed on “small sample size”, but having visited a couple of times, seemed to me like it had a rather high population density.
There’s going to be so very many small-scale tragedies buried in the larger ones.
Snarki – as of yesterday, looking at the OWID data, San Marino has had 41 deaths (but no new ones since 4/27), with a population of 33938, for a deaths per million of 1208.
If you were to rank all the locations by population density, San Marino’s is in the higher end of the list, about 585 (per km squared), but still a small fraction of that in places like Singapore and Hong Kong, or even, much more comparably, Monaco, which has a population density of 19347.5, a population of 39244, but only five deaths.
Makes you wonder if San Marino had a cluster of deaths (maybe a nursing home)?
An Italian village with a cluster was quarantined and profiled in this video. The mayor is cool.
Small tragedies indeed.
Snarki – as of yesterday, looking at the OWID data, San Marino has had 41 deaths (but no new ones since 4/27), with a population of 33938, for a deaths per million of 1208.
If you were to rank all the locations by population density, San Marino’s is in the higher end of the list, about 585 (per km squared), but still a small fraction of that in places like Singapore and Hong Kong, or even, much more comparably, Monaco, which has a population density of 19347.5, a population of 39244, but only five deaths.
Makes you wonder if San Marino had a cluster of deaths (maybe a nursing home)?
An Italian village with a cluster was quarantined and profiled in this video. The mayor is cool.
Small tragedies indeed.
It really says something that all these countries are in on the hoax.
It really says something that all these countries are in on the hoax.
It really says something that all these countries are in on the hoax.
How else? It is, after all, a hoax run by global elites.
It really says something that all these countries are in on the hoax.
How else? It is, after all, a hoax run by global elites.
The country names, or at least three-letter abrreviations at the end of each line would be most helpful. Oops — like your list of countries, only part of the plot.
When I just glanced at it, I expected the second line down to be the US because it’s clearly a series of little outbreaks, one after the other.
The country names, or at least three-letter abrreviations at the end of each line would be most helpful. Oops — like your list of countries, only part of the plot.
When I just glanced at it, I expected the second line down to be the US because it’s clearly a series of little outbreaks, one after the other.
Here’s a comparison: Norway and Sweden.
Here’s a comparison: Norway and Sweden.
Norwegians have admitted that Sweden, comparied to Norway, has better neighbors…
Norwegians have admitted that Sweden, comparied to Norway, has better neighbors…
1. I’ll work on readability for next time.
2. Below, very quick and dirty (anyone know how to make a comment box recognize a tab?), all the locations with total deaths per million > 100 as of 5/18:
San Marino 1208.085
Belgium 781.044
Andorra 660.066
Italy 527.738
United Kingdom 510.208
France 430.619
Sweden 364.284
Sint Maarten (Dutch part)
349.797
Netherlands 331.488
Ireland 312.488
Isle of Man 282.247
United States 270.578
Montserrat 200.04
Switzerland 185.103
Luxembourg 170.933
Ecuador 155.075
Canada 153.197
Bermuda 144.525
Monaco 127.408
Portugal 119.45
1. I’ll work on readability for next time.
2. Below, very quick and dirty (anyone know how to make a comment box recognize a tab?), all the locations with total deaths per million > 100 as of 5/18:
San Marino 1208.085
Belgium 781.044
Andorra 660.066
Italy 527.738
United Kingdom 510.208
France 430.619
Sweden 364.284
Sint Maarten (Dutch part)
349.797
Netherlands 331.488
Ireland 312.488
Isle of Man 282.247
United States 270.578
Montserrat 200.04
Switzerland 185.103
Luxembourg 170.933
Ecuador 155.075
Canada 153.197
Bermuda 144.525
Monaco 127.408
Portugal 119.45
Those little ‘countries’ are just made up and don’t really exist except maybe as theme parks. And some seem to be not even at the higher area end for theme parks. Some of the names are dead give-aways*. Isle of Man? What-I-Can? Tranny Dad and Tobacco? Not to forget islands named after clothing items or sliced bread.
*not to be confused with ex-parrots. Those have to be paid for properly
Those little ‘countries’ are just made up and don’t really exist except maybe as theme parks. And some seem to be not even at the higher area end for theme parks. Some of the names are dead give-aways*. Isle of Man? What-I-Can? Tranny Dad and Tobacco? Not to forget islands named after clothing items or sliced bread.
*not to be confused with ex-parrots. Those have to be paid for properly
Makes you wonder if San Marino had a cluster of deaths (maybe a nursing home)?
My guess is that a few San Marinans were, at the very beginning of the outbreak, at a fancy ski resort. The authorities (in Germany? can’t remember details) were fairly sure, at the beginning of the pandemic, when they were able to trace contacts, that someone had gone straight from China to some ski resort (can’t remember which one), and that a lot of the early transmission into the rest of Europe was a result of skiers returning from their vacation to their home countries. Sorry for vagueness!
Makes you wonder if San Marino had a cluster of deaths (maybe a nursing home)?
My guess is that a few San Marinans were, at the very beginning of the outbreak, at a fancy ski resort. The authorities (in Germany? can’t remember details) were fairly sure, at the beginning of the pandemic, when they were able to trace contacts, that someone had gone straight from China to some ski resort (can’t remember which one), and that a lot of the early transmission into the rest of Europe was a result of skiers returning from their vacation to their home countries. Sorry for vagueness!
Austrian resort:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/austria-coronavirus-alps-ischgl-ski-resort-investigation-lawsuit/2020/05/17/d54fa5fa-93bf-11ea-87a3-22d324235636_story.html
Austrian resort:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/austria-coronavirus-alps-ischgl-ski-resort-investigation-lawsuit/2020/05/17/d54fa5fa-93bf-11ea-87a3-22d324235636_story.html
Then there’s this:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/coronavirus-deaths/
Mostly one man’s story:
Then there’s this:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/coronavirus-deaths/
Mostly one man’s story:
@hsh 9:32 — this blurriness is one of the reasons why I’m ambivalent about continuing to track the numbers.
@hsh 9:32 — this blurriness is one of the reasons why I’m ambivalent about continuing to track the numbers.
I generally take the numbers as “at least” figures. But it does make comparisons fraught when one place – be it a state, territory, or country – has a different version of “at least” than another.
Also from my last link, regarding “at least”:
I generally take the numbers as “at least” figures. But it does make comparisons fraught when one place – be it a state, territory, or country – has a different version of “at least” than another.
Also from my last link, regarding “at least”:
More from hsh’s link:
This is something I think about every night when I look at the numbers and remind myself that they’re not just numbers. Each death is a story of suffering, fear, and in many cases loneliness, an unexpected rewriting of the future, a grieving family.
Even with my mom — she didn’t have COVID-19, but it affected the last weeks of her life just the same. My brother had been spending time with her every evening — and then he couldn’t, until she was “actively dying.”
There were also decisions that had to be made about treatment, decisions that had to be made in a context reshaped by the pandemic.
So she spent her last weeks with strangers, increasingly confused, paranoid, and in pain. None of us, including my mom, objected to the shutdown — and her nursing home had no COVID-19 cases last I knew, so lives were surely saved in that facility by the quarantine. But lives — and deaths — were also reshaped in ways no one could have foreseen.
Neither side of that equation will ever be counted in any statistics.
More from hsh’s link:
This is something I think about every night when I look at the numbers and remind myself that they’re not just numbers. Each death is a story of suffering, fear, and in many cases loneliness, an unexpected rewriting of the future, a grieving family.
Even with my mom — she didn’t have COVID-19, but it affected the last weeks of her life just the same. My brother had been spending time with her every evening — and then he couldn’t, until she was “actively dying.”
There were also decisions that had to be made about treatment, decisions that had to be made in a context reshaped by the pandemic.
So she spent her last weeks with strangers, increasingly confused, paranoid, and in pain. None of us, including my mom, objected to the shutdown — and her nursing home had no COVID-19 cases last I knew, so lives were surely saved in that facility by the quarantine. But lives — and deaths — were also reshaped in ways no one could have foreseen.
Neither side of that equation will ever be counted in any statistics.
And this: The New York electronic death records form provides three lines for cause of death, which are supposed to be filled out in a way that tells a story. The idea is that nobody ever really dies of just one thing, Aiken told me.
Words to live by.
Or die by.
Mostly when someone asks me what my mom died of, I want to say, “life.” She was 96! She had half a dozen ailments and injuries! Her body had just had enough.
We put “of natural causes” in the obit, because it was important to at least one of us that it be clear that she didn’t die of COVID-19.
And this: The New York electronic death records form provides three lines for cause of death, which are supposed to be filled out in a way that tells a story. The idea is that nobody ever really dies of just one thing, Aiken told me.
Words to live by.
Or die by.
Mostly when someone asks me what my mom died of, I want to say, “life.” She was 96! She had half a dozen ailments and injuries! Her body had just had enough.
We put “of natural causes” in the obit, because it was important to at least one of us that it be clear that she didn’t die of COVID-19.
All deaths in the state of New York went up in March, and these excess deaths — deaths above the usual rate for that place and time of year — outstrip diagnosed COVID-19 cases statewide by nearly three times.
And it’s worth noting that deaths tripled in spite of deaths from things like traffic accidents going down, due to all those people sheltering in place rather than on the streets commuting,
All deaths in the state of New York went up in March, and these excess deaths — deaths above the usual rate for that place and time of year — outstrip diagnosed COVID-19 cases statewide by nearly three times.
And it’s worth noting that deaths tripled in spite of deaths from things like traffic accidents going down, due to all those people sheltering in place rather than on the streets commuting,
My father died 2-1/2 years ago of “cadiogenic shock.” He was only 76, but had one thing after another go wrong health-wise over the course of a couple decades. Even before that, he had major kidney surgery when I was really young. The only thing I remember from it was seeing the large, fresh scar on his back. I was probably about 5 at the time.
The last couple of decades of his life included multiple angioplasties and stents, diagnosis with type-2 diabetes, two medically induced comas (one in 2010 and one in 2014) when he was in sepsis – both of which had me mourning what I expected to be his imminent death, given what the doctors were telling me. (They have this way of looking at you and saying quietly, “Your father is very, very sick.” It’s like they’re trying to see in your face that you understand that he might not make it without their having to come out and say it to you bluntly.)
My dad was really tough, though. Both times, he made it out of the hospital and, after convalescing, back to caring for himself and going out and doing normal things. But each time took it’s piece out of him. He went from being middle-aged to what I’ll just call “old” after the first one. And he went from old to something more like elderly after the second one. Still independent, but far more limited. And his kidneys were slowly failing.
He went to the hospital with what he thought was a gall stone, but what turned out to be a mild heart attack. They took him into the cath lab the next day and he became “unstable.” He wasn’t conscious, would never be conscious, and the only way his heart could continue beating normally was repeated defibrillation. He was on multiple acute medications, the main one to keep his blood pressure up, and he was only breathing because of a ventilator.
There were too many things wrong with him to manage at once, and he died. Was it the heart attack? Sort of. But if he were otherwise healthy, they may have been able to do another angioplasty or put in a stent, and may have lived another 10 years.
I’ve been think about him a lot since this pandemic started. Mostly I think about how afraid I would have been for him, and how I would handled visiting with him. He used to come over my house just about every Sunday morning, and he loved seeing his grandchildren. I don’t know how I would have dealt with that. Maybe we’d all sit in the back yard ten feet apart or something.
Somehow, not having to deal with all of that is making me miss him even more right now.
My father died 2-1/2 years ago of “cadiogenic shock.” He was only 76, but had one thing after another go wrong health-wise over the course of a couple decades. Even before that, he had major kidney surgery when I was really young. The only thing I remember from it was seeing the large, fresh scar on his back. I was probably about 5 at the time.
The last couple of decades of his life included multiple angioplasties and stents, diagnosis with type-2 diabetes, two medically induced comas (one in 2010 and one in 2014) when he was in sepsis – both of which had me mourning what I expected to be his imminent death, given what the doctors were telling me. (They have this way of looking at you and saying quietly, “Your father is very, very sick.” It’s like they’re trying to see in your face that you understand that he might not make it without their having to come out and say it to you bluntly.)
My dad was really tough, though. Both times, he made it out of the hospital and, after convalescing, back to caring for himself and going out and doing normal things. But each time took it’s piece out of him. He went from being middle-aged to what I’ll just call “old” after the first one. And he went from old to something more like elderly after the second one. Still independent, but far more limited. And his kidneys were slowly failing.
He went to the hospital with what he thought was a gall stone, but what turned out to be a mild heart attack. They took him into the cath lab the next day and he became “unstable.” He wasn’t conscious, would never be conscious, and the only way his heart could continue beating normally was repeated defibrillation. He was on multiple acute medications, the main one to keep his blood pressure up, and he was only breathing because of a ventilator.
There were too many things wrong with him to manage at once, and he died. Was it the heart attack? Sort of. But if he were otherwise healthy, they may have been able to do another angioplasty or put in a stent, and may have lived another 10 years.
I’ve been think about him a lot since this pandemic started. Mostly I think about how afraid I would have been for him, and how I would handled visiting with him. He used to come over my house just about every Sunday morning, and he loved seeing his grandchildren. I don’t know how I would have dealt with that. Maybe we’d all sit in the back yard ten feet apart or something.
Somehow, not having to deal with all of that is making me miss him even more right now.
My family had the same experience, Janie, except that the quarantine was not effective.
I wrote about it here:
https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/04/21/the-index-case-dealing-with-covid-19-inside-our-care-homes/
My family had the same experience, Janie, except that the quarantine was not effective.
I wrote about it here:
https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/04/21/the-index-case-dealing-with-covid-19-inside-our-care-homes/
Nigel, I am so sorry for your loss. I do not want to add to your pain, but I only question your sentence It appears to have happened without thinking.
I imagine nobody had the stupidity to put anything to the contrary in writing, but eventually no doubt these questions will be investigated.
I have several times during this crisis stopped and thought “thank God my mother is not still alive.” I feel intense sympathy for anyone having to worry about vulnerable elderly parents in this situation.
Nigel, I am so sorry for your loss. I do not want to add to your pain, but I only question your sentence It appears to have happened without thinking.
I imagine nobody had the stupidity to put anything to the contrary in writing, but eventually no doubt these questions will be investigated.
I have several times during this crisis stopped and thought “thank God my mother is not still alive.” I feel intense sympathy for anyone having to worry about vulnerable elderly parents in this situation.
I’m sorry, Nigel. I don’t know how angry and frustrated I would be if I were you, on top of being terribly sad. It’s hard to imagine.
I’m sorry, Nigel. I don’t know how angry and frustrated I would be if I were you, on top of being terribly sad. It’s hard to imagine.
deaths above the usual rate for that place and time of year — outstrip diagnosed COVID-19 cases statewide by nearly three times.
wj: deaths tripled
I do believe we’ve touched on this before, and argued about it. (“We” being the commentariat in general, not just wj and me.)
Strictly speaking, with my copy editor hat on, I would not have left that first quote as is. If you outstrip something, you go beyond it. If you outstrip it by three times normal, to me that means you’ve gone past normal by an amount equal to thrice normal, i.e. deaths were normal, plus three times normal, for a total count that’s four times normal.
“Outstrip” makes this example even a little mushier than the usual mush people make of talking about numbers in words. People often write something like, “We had three times more than normal attendance” — when it would be clearer to write “We had three [our four] times the normal attendance.”
/grammar nerd irritation
deaths above the usual rate for that place and time of year — outstrip diagnosed COVID-19 cases statewide by nearly three times.
wj: deaths tripled
I do believe we’ve touched on this before, and argued about it. (“We” being the commentariat in general, not just wj and me.)
Strictly speaking, with my copy editor hat on, I would not have left that first quote as is. If you outstrip something, you go beyond it. If you outstrip it by three times normal, to me that means you’ve gone past normal by an amount equal to thrice normal, i.e. deaths were normal, plus three times normal, for a total count that’s four times normal.
“Outstrip” makes this example even a little mushier than the usual mush people make of talking about numbers in words. People often write something like, “We had three times more than normal attendance” — when it would be clearer to write “We had three [our four] times the normal attendance.”
/grammar nerd irritation
Argh. Apologies, Nigel, I got a phone call in the middle of writing that grammar comment, then posted it without seeing that your comment and link had come in the meantime.
I’m so sorry about your dad — it’s hard enough at the best of times, without the extra stress (or might I say outrage) of why it happened this way.
Argh. Apologies, Nigel, I got a phone call in the middle of writing that grammar comment, then posted it without seeing that your comment and link had come in the meantime.
I’m so sorry about your dad — it’s hard enough at the best of times, without the extra stress (or might I say outrage) of why it happened this way.
Janie, point taken. I plead that I hadn’t yet had my tea this morning. (It’s a poor excuse for sloppyness. But it’s all I’ve got.)
Janie, point taken. I plead that I hadn’t yet had my tea this morning. (It’s a poor excuse for sloppyness. But it’s all I’ve got.)
wj — I was really aiming at the original quote, not at you. You just got in the line of fire. 😉
wj — I was really aiming at the original quote, not at you. You just got in the line of fire. 😉
“Temporary care workers transmitted Covid-19 between care homes as cases surged, according to an unpublished government study which used genome tracking to investigate outbreaks.
In evidence that raises further questions about ministers’ claims to have “thrown a protective ring around care homes”, it emerged that agency workers – often employed on zero-hours contracts – unwittingly spread the infection as the pandemic grew, according to the study by Public Health England (PHE).”
Agency staff were spreading Covid-19 between care homes, PHE found in April: Exclusive: results of unpublished study were only shared with care home providers last week
“Temporary care workers transmitted Covid-19 between care homes as cases surged, according to an unpublished government study which used genome tracking to investigate outbreaks.
In evidence that raises further questions about ministers’ claims to have “thrown a protective ring around care homes”, it emerged that agency workers – often employed on zero-hours contracts – unwittingly spread the infection as the pandemic grew, according to the study by Public Health England (PHE).”
Agency staff were spreading Covid-19 between care homes, PHE found in April: Exclusive: results of unpublished study were only shared with care home providers last week
I pulled the daily US and UK totals into this thread. I didn’t update the deaths per million graph — will try to do that in a couple of days.
I pulled the daily US and UK totals into this thread. I didn’t update the deaths per million graph — will try to do that in a couple of days.
No need to apologise, Janie, and thanks.
No need to apologise, Janie, and thanks.
Why does it use 6-day rolling averages? I suggest that 7-day rolling averages would make more sense.
Why does it use 6-day rolling averages? I suggest that 7-day rolling averages would make more sense.
A 6-day rolling average smooths out some of the weekly cycles of the data.
A 6-day rolling average smooths out some of the weekly cycles of the data.
Bizarro World: In Weld County, Colorado, workers at the meat plant can only be tested for Covid-19, if they had NO contact with ANY person showing ANY symptoms ANYWHERE. Calls to the health department, whether that was a mistake or just a typo in the official document get informed that, no, it means exactly what it says. In essence, no test for you, if you work at the meat plant and there is the slightest chance that the test result could be positive.
No surprise, if the numbers keep dropping.
Bizarro World: In Weld County, Colorado, workers at the meat plant can only be tested for Covid-19, if they had NO contact with ANY person showing ANY symptoms ANYWHERE. Calls to the health department, whether that was a mistake or just a typo in the official document get informed that, no, it means exactly what it says. In essence, no test for you, if you work at the meat plant and there is the slightest chance that the test result could be positive.
No surprise, if the numbers keep dropping.
Testing labs don’t operate 24/7, so results are backlogged over the weekend, and land with higher rates on Monday/Tuesday.
So a weekly average makes sense to…a six day average will remove most of the noise, seven day average is better.
Testing labs don’t operate 24/7, so results are backlogged over the weekend, and land with higher rates on Monday/Tuesday.
So a weekly average makes sense to…a six day average will remove most of the noise, seven day average is better.
I’m so sorry, Nigel, for your loss, and for the way this disease has affected your family.
I’m so sorry, Nigel, for your loss, and for the way this disease has affected your family.
Hi Nigel, thanks for sharing that, it’s so hard to talk about loss at a time like this, when there are so many other losses around. I wanted to post something on mother’s day about my mom who passed away 11 years ago and how I miss her, but how I also feel like GftNC feels: Grateful that she’s not alive to see all this.
She was a nurse and though she stopped when she got married, she ended up keeping up with studying (she had gone back to school to take classes and maybe get a BA as she had a nursing 2 year degree) and ended up working as a medical secretary. I mentioned this when I wrote about my daughter getting Kawasaki’s, and when we had various aches and pains, she would tell us oh, you must have done this, do this for that. Fortunately, both my brother and I have been pretty lucky and I only really started to fall apart after she passed. If she were around, I’d feel safer, knowing I could call if one of us got sick and get reassured, but I would have hated to think of how she would feel seeing all this happening.
But anyway, I wanted to post something on facebook and say basically the same thing, but my facebook is full of people from Mississippi, which is also something I’m trying to write a post about now, but I just didn’t want to deal with people taking offense at my observation. But I share it with all of you here, hoping that some of you might understand.
Hi Nigel, thanks for sharing that, it’s so hard to talk about loss at a time like this, when there are so many other losses around. I wanted to post something on mother’s day about my mom who passed away 11 years ago and how I miss her, but how I also feel like GftNC feels: Grateful that she’s not alive to see all this.
She was a nurse and though she stopped when she got married, she ended up keeping up with studying (she had gone back to school to take classes and maybe get a BA as she had a nursing 2 year degree) and ended up working as a medical secretary. I mentioned this when I wrote about my daughter getting Kawasaki’s, and when we had various aches and pains, she would tell us oh, you must have done this, do this for that. Fortunately, both my brother and I have been pretty lucky and I only really started to fall apart after she passed. If she were around, I’d feel safer, knowing I could call if one of us got sick and get reassured, but I would have hated to think of how she would feel seeing all this happening.
But anyway, I wanted to post something on facebook and say basically the same thing, but my facebook is full of people from Mississippi, which is also something I’m trying to write a post about now, but I just didn’t want to deal with people taking offense at my observation. But I share it with all of you here, hoping that some of you might understand.
lj,
It is interesting, I have had a very similar experience this week. My father passed ten years ago yesterday and I wanted to post something that reflected on his life, and mine without him, but it just seemed, inappropriate.
Meanwhile, three weeks ago my mother-in-law passed. She was 93 and in poor health but her passing was probably hastened by the doctors hesitance to put her in the hospital.
I did talk to my Mom about how my Dad would feel about the world today. But there was really no place to share how I thought he would feel, or my wife’s frustration about her mother’s passing.
All this just to say, I empathize with you, and you Nigel.
lj,
It is interesting, I have had a very similar experience this week. My father passed ten years ago yesterday and I wanted to post something that reflected on his life, and mine without him, but it just seemed, inappropriate.
Meanwhile, three weeks ago my mother-in-law passed. She was 93 and in poor health but her passing was probably hastened by the doctors hesitance to put her in the hospital.
I did talk to my Mom about how my Dad would feel about the world today. But there was really no place to share how I thought he would feel, or my wife’s frustration about her mother’s passing.
All this just to say, I empathize with you, and you Nigel.
Nigel, sorry to hear it.
Nigel, sorry to hear it.
Why does it use 6-day rolling averages? I suggest that 7-day rolling averages would make more sense.
Here’s OWID’s data. Here’s Worldometer’s, though they don’t offer raw data in a downloadable format AFAICT. A guest post would be most welcome.
Even if you just want to spectate, OWID, among other sites, provides a vast selection of views of the data, including a 7-day moving average of deaths per million of population; you can interactively add other countries besides the defaults.
When I started this a month ago, I was responding to hsh’s wish that Worldometer would publish graphs of multi-day averages, which I was curious about too. I took the 6-day average idea from some Kevin Drum graphs that bobbyp had linked to. At that point I didn’t know about the systematic weekend reporting issues. If it weren’t for those, using six days vs seven would make very little difference to the shape of the curve.
Here’s an interesting piece from Kevin Drum about using actual dates of death vs reported dates of death, which eliminates the weekend reporting problem. Still, Kevin himself switched to 7-day averages soon after I copied his 6-day idea, but I don’t read him regularly, so didn’t see that there was a new idea to consider copying. I am not a statistician or an epidemiologist; I was doing this casually, spurred on by hsh’s interest and my own, and thought I might as well share.
To put it more briefly, this is Obsidian Wings, not Alice’s Restaurant, LOL.
[Aside to hsh: If you’re willing, put your email address in a comment box, or send it to the kitty and lj can forward it to me. I thought I had it from years ago, but I can’t find it.]
Why does it use 6-day rolling averages? I suggest that 7-day rolling averages would make more sense.
Here’s OWID’s data. Here’s Worldometer’s, though they don’t offer raw data in a downloadable format AFAICT. A guest post would be most welcome.
Even if you just want to spectate, OWID, among other sites, provides a vast selection of views of the data, including a 7-day moving average of deaths per million of population; you can interactively add other countries besides the defaults.
When I started this a month ago, I was responding to hsh’s wish that Worldometer would publish graphs of multi-day averages, which I was curious about too. I took the 6-day average idea from some Kevin Drum graphs that bobbyp had linked to. At that point I didn’t know about the systematic weekend reporting issues. If it weren’t for those, using six days vs seven would make very little difference to the shape of the curve.
Here’s an interesting piece from Kevin Drum about using actual dates of death vs reported dates of death, which eliminates the weekend reporting problem. Still, Kevin himself switched to 7-day averages soon after I copied his 6-day idea, but I don’t read him regularly, so didn’t see that there was a new idea to consider copying. I am not a statistician or an epidemiologist; I was doing this casually, spurred on by hsh’s interest and my own, and thought I might as well share.
To put it more briefly, this is Obsidian Wings, not Alice’s Restaurant, LOL.
[Aside to hsh: If you’re willing, put your email address in a comment box, or send it to the kitty and lj can forward it to me. I thought I had it from years ago, but I can’t find it.]
Nigel and Janie, so sorry for your losses. Not being able to be with loved ones when they pass is doubly hard.
Nigel and Janie, so sorry for your losses. Not being able to be with loved ones when they pass is doubly hard.
JanieM, I thought I would be unbelievably clever and email you directly, sure that I had your email address. No dice! So I emailed The Kitty / lj.
JanieM, I thought I would be unbelievably clever and email you directly, sure that I had your email address. No dice! So I emailed The Kitty / lj.
Thanks Marty, I appreciate that and I’m sorry for what you are having to deal with. I don’t have to tell you but dealing with a spouse’s loss is so tricky. It is so easy for there to be a gap between what is needed and wanted and what you think may be needed but the partner doesn’t agree. It’s such a minefield.
I also appreciate how it is hard to find a space to share what you think your parents or other people who were close to you might think. It’s something that does need to get said, but when deployed in an debate, it is another mindfield.
At any rate, take care and stay safe.
Thanks Marty, I appreciate that and I’m sorry for what you are having to deal with. I don’t have to tell you but dealing with a spouse’s loss is so tricky. It is so easy for there to be a gap between what is needed and wanted and what you think may be needed but the partner doesn’t agree. It’s such a minefield.
I also appreciate how it is hard to find a space to share what you think your parents or other people who were close to you might think. It’s something that does need to get said, but when deployed in an debate, it is another mindfield.
At any rate, take care and stay safe.
Below is my chart using a 365 day rolling average. The White House has expressed interest.
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Below is my chart using a 365 day rolling average. The White House has expressed interest.
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bobbyp:
He had bought a large map representing the sea,
Without the least vestige of land:
And the crew were much pleased when they found it to be
A map they could all understand.
“What’s the good of Mercator’s North Poles and Equators,
Tropics, Zones, and Meridian Lines?”
So the Bellman would cry: and the crew would reply
“They are merely conventional signs!
“Other maps are such shapes, with their islands and capes!
But we’ve got our brave Captain to thank
(So the crew would protest) “that he’s bought us the best—
A perfect and absolute blank!”
This was charming, no doubt; but they shortly found out
That the Captain they trusted so well
Had only one notion for crossing the ocean,
And that was to tingle his bell.
….excerpt from The Hunting of the Snark, OF COURSE.
bobbyp:
He had bought a large map representing the sea,
Without the least vestige of land:
And the crew were much pleased when they found it to be
A map they could all understand.
“What’s the good of Mercator’s North Poles and Equators,
Tropics, Zones, and Meridian Lines?”
So the Bellman would cry: and the crew would reply
“They are merely conventional signs!
“Other maps are such shapes, with their islands and capes!
But we’ve got our brave Captain to thank
(So the crew would protest) “that he’s bought us the best—
A perfect and absolute blank!”
This was charming, no doubt; but they shortly found out
That the Captain they trusted so well
Had only one notion for crossing the ocean,
And that was to tingle his bell.
….excerpt from The Hunting of the Snark, OF COURSE.
Even if you just want to spectate, OWID…
Poking around at OWID, I came upon Case fatality rate of COVID-19 vs. Median Age, which I assumed was … well, I’m not exactly sure … so let’s just say something other than what it was.
It was (and still is!) a graphic showing the case fatality rate in each country on the y-axis with the median age of each country along the x-axis. Each country is represented by a colored-in circle, the size of which represents the total number of confirmed COVID-19 deaths in that country as of whatever date, selected by sliding a bar at the bottom from Jan 19th to the far left and May 22nd to the far right. Or you can press a play button that will move the bar gradually from the far left to the far right for you.
What surprised me was how great the variation is in median age among different nations. The median age in Niger is 15. (I’d put an exclamation point at the end of that sentence were it not for factorial notation.) In Japan it’s 47. I’m mostly surprised by how low the low end is.
(A similar thing happened when Worldometers added a column for the population of each country to their main table. FREX, I would never have guessed that nearly 115M people lived in Ethiopia.)
Even if you just want to spectate, OWID…
Poking around at OWID, I came upon Case fatality rate of COVID-19 vs. Median Age, which I assumed was … well, I’m not exactly sure … so let’s just say something other than what it was.
It was (and still is!) a graphic showing the case fatality rate in each country on the y-axis with the median age of each country along the x-axis. Each country is represented by a colored-in circle, the size of which represents the total number of confirmed COVID-19 deaths in that country as of whatever date, selected by sliding a bar at the bottom from Jan 19th to the far left and May 22nd to the far right. Or you can press a play button that will move the bar gradually from the far left to the far right for you.
What surprised me was how great the variation is in median age among different nations. The median age in Niger is 15. (I’d put an exclamation point at the end of that sentence were it not for factorial notation.) In Japan it’s 47. I’m mostly surprised by how low the low end is.
(A similar thing happened when Worldometers added a column for the population of each country to their main table. FREX, I would never have guessed that nearly 115M people lived in Ethiopia.)
Snarki’s excerpt from The Hunting of the Snark: a perfect metaphor for much of our current situation, as no doubt intended.
Snarki’s excerpt from The Hunting of the Snark: a perfect metaphor for much of our current situation, as no doubt intended.
Give me liberty
orand give me death:h/t Anne Laurie at BJ, as usual.
Give me liberty
orand give me death:h/t Anne Laurie at BJ, as usual.
what the hell
what the hell
It’s tempting to try to remind people that “freedom” is not, and has never been, absolute, that “freedom” is always a balancing act.
But you can’t reason with toddlers, or fanatics. And fanatic toddlers are really the worst.
We’ve come to a place in this insane country where in a lot of people’s minds, they are “free” to, oh let’s say, shoot people at the drop of a hat. They are free to prevent sick people from getting to hospitals. The freedom of the rest of us to live in safety is of no account to them.
They want to be “free” like bratty toddlers with no adults to supervise them or teach them how to play well with others.
It’s not really that surprising (however dismaying it may be) that people who claim that their right to own, carry, and use machine guns for private purposes can’t be restricted also claim the right to breathe their viruses all over the rest of us.
It’s tempting to try to remind people that “freedom” is not, and has never been, absolute, that “freedom” is always a balancing act.
But you can’t reason with toddlers, or fanatics. And fanatic toddlers are really the worst.
We’ve come to a place in this insane country where in a lot of people’s minds, they are “free” to, oh let’s say, shoot people at the drop of a hat. They are free to prevent sick people from getting to hospitals. The freedom of the rest of us to live in safety is of no account to them.
They want to be “free” like bratty toddlers with no adults to supervise them or teach them how to play well with others.
It’s not really that surprising (however dismaying it may be) that people who claim that their right to own, carry, and use machine guns for private purposes can’t be restricted also claim the right to breathe their viruses all over the rest of us.
“people who claim that their right to own, carry, and use machine guns for private purposes can’t be restricted also claim the right to breathe their viruses all over the rest of us.”
I *really* need to stock up on flamethrowers, to sterilize the virus clinging to Trumpers MAGA hats.
“people who claim that their right to own, carry, and use machine guns for private purposes can’t be restricted also claim the right to breathe their viruses all over the rest of us.”
I *really* need to stock up on flamethrowers, to sterilize the virus clinging to Trumpers MAGA hats.
what the hell
I think this is great, actually. It’s like the evangelical churches which want to reopen with no masks and hugs all around. Cold hearted it may be, but this is gathering the selfish together where they can hopefully weed themselves out of society. (And, if you go for nature over nurture, out of the gene pool.) All without the rest of us having to lift a finger.
I’d have the same view of the (probably overlapping) anti-vaxxers. Except that, instead of hurting themselves, they’re putting their children at risk with their stupidities.
On which topic, i.e. stupidity, see this from the (Republican) governor of North Dakota
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/05/23/doug-burgum-masks/
“senseless culture war” indeed.
what the hell
I think this is great, actually. It’s like the evangelical churches which want to reopen with no masks and hugs all around. Cold hearted it may be, but this is gathering the selfish together where they can hopefully weed themselves out of society. (And, if you go for nature over nurture, out of the gene pool.) All without the rest of us having to lift a finger.
I’d have the same view of the (probably overlapping) anti-vaxxers. Except that, instead of hurting themselves, they’re putting their children at risk with their stupidities.
On which topic, i.e. stupidity, see this from the (Republican) governor of North Dakota
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/05/23/doug-burgum-masks/
“senseless culture war” indeed.
from the Department of OMG Who Could Have Foreseen This:
from the Department of OMG Who Could Have Foreseen This:
Out of laziness, I’m copying and pasting something I wrote as a comment on my cousin’s facebook post after someone wrote that wearing a mask won’t stop the virus but will make you look like “a wimpy pussy” (classy, right?):
Cloth masks help keep droplets coming out of your mouth from spreading far and wide into the air, reducing the chances that you can infect someone else. N95 masks can filter out droplets that can carry the virus, protecting the wearer. This should be common knowledge by now. Why wearing a mask to protect your fellow Americans and human beings in general makes someone look wimpy is beyond me. Think of the sacrifices we’re memorializing this weekend against that of wearing a mask around other people. Who’s the wimp? I’d say it’s someone who can’t tolerate wearing a mask to save our country.
Out of laziness, I’m copying and pasting something I wrote as a comment on my cousin’s facebook post after someone wrote that wearing a mask won’t stop the virus but will make you look like “a wimpy pussy” (classy, right?):
Cloth masks help keep droplets coming out of your mouth from spreading far and wide into the air, reducing the chances that you can infect someone else. N95 masks can filter out droplets that can carry the virus, protecting the wearer. This should be common knowledge by now. Why wearing a mask to protect your fellow Americans and human beings in general makes someone look wimpy is beyond me. Think of the sacrifices we’re memorializing this weekend against that of wearing a mask around other people. Who’s the wimp? I’d say it’s someone who can’t tolerate wearing a mask to save our country.
What hsh said.
Those guys who obsess about looking whimpy are just so incredibly insecure. Perhaps with reason.
What hsh said.
Those guys who obsess about looking whimpy are just so incredibly insecure. Perhaps with reason.
Because the stylist and the customers wore face coverings, health officials said on Friday, they hoped the interactions would lead to “no additional cases”.
I actually hope they follow up on this, and let us know whether customers got sick from this exposure while both parties were wearing masks. If not, it’s somewhat comforting that there’s a protocol that works.
Obviously, experimenting on people in this way isn’t ideal, but I’m in favor of resuming as much normalcy is available if we can manage to take effective precautions.
The anti-mask people can then be dealt with as Snarki suggests.
Because the stylist and the customers wore face coverings, health officials said on Friday, they hoped the interactions would lead to “no additional cases”.
I actually hope they follow up on this, and let us know whether customers got sick from this exposure while both parties were wearing masks. If not, it’s somewhat comforting that there’s a protocol that works.
Obviously, experimenting on people in this way isn’t ideal, but I’m in favor of resuming as much normalcy is available if we can manage to take effective precautions.
The anti-mask people can then be dealt with as Snarki suggests.
hsh — if I were on Facebook, I would steal your paragraph. Nicely done.
*****
The stylist who tested positive for Covid-19 worked at a salon in Springfield on eight different days while experiencing coronavirus symptoms.
I’m in favor of resuming as much normalcy is available if we can manage to take effective precautions.
The key words here are “while experiencing symptoms.” For eight days!
As far as I’m concerned, “normalcy” should never involve going to work when you’re sick with something other people can catch, never mind in current circumstances. In a properly run society that would be about as acceptable as peeing on someone else’s lunch.
If this stylist was one of those “my liberty entails the right to infect other people” people, then I won’t even put into words what I think s/he deserves.
If it was someone who didn’t have enough sick leave to get by while staying home, that’s on our whole system, not only on the worker, although I still think that if you’re sick, you stay home, all the more right now. (I realize that hair stylists are usually or often self-employed, which makes the “sick leave” question harder. Lay it on the pricing structure and no one wanting to pay a price that would cover externalities.)
Out in public, where we all have to function (which is different from let’s say hospitals), masks are encouraged or required because COVID-19 can be passed on by people who are symptom-free, not so that people who know they’re sick can knowingly circulate amongst the rest of us. People who know they’re sick should quarantine themselves, period. And we should make sure they’re taken care of in every way, financial, medical, child-care-wise, whatever.
Not that we will do that, partly because the same assholes who are screeching about liberty will be the exact same ones who don’t want to kick in a share of what it would require for all of us to take care of each other. No sirree, that would be socialism.
*****
From the CDC website:
Get that? If you’re sick, STAY HOME.
hsh — if I were on Facebook, I would steal your paragraph. Nicely done.
*****
The stylist who tested positive for Covid-19 worked at a salon in Springfield on eight different days while experiencing coronavirus symptoms.
I’m in favor of resuming as much normalcy is available if we can manage to take effective precautions.
The key words here are “while experiencing symptoms.” For eight days!
As far as I’m concerned, “normalcy” should never involve going to work when you’re sick with something other people can catch, never mind in current circumstances. In a properly run society that would be about as acceptable as peeing on someone else’s lunch.
If this stylist was one of those “my liberty entails the right to infect other people” people, then I won’t even put into words what I think s/he deserves.
If it was someone who didn’t have enough sick leave to get by while staying home, that’s on our whole system, not only on the worker, although I still think that if you’re sick, you stay home, all the more right now. (I realize that hair stylists are usually or often self-employed, which makes the “sick leave” question harder. Lay it on the pricing structure and no one wanting to pay a price that would cover externalities.)
Out in public, where we all have to function (which is different from let’s say hospitals), masks are encouraged or required because COVID-19 can be passed on by people who are symptom-free, not so that people who know they’re sick can knowingly circulate amongst the rest of us. People who know they’re sick should quarantine themselves, period. And we should make sure they’re taken care of in every way, financial, medical, child-care-wise, whatever.
Not that we will do that, partly because the same assholes who are screeching about liberty will be the exact same ones who don’t want to kick in a share of what it would require for all of us to take care of each other. No sirree, that would be socialism.
*****
From the CDC website:
Get that? If you’re sick, STAY HOME.
Me: No sirree, that would be socialism.
And as we all know, and as has been IIRC said on this very blog, if not in these exact words: “Better dead than red.” (In the older meaning of “red,” of course.)
So death it is.
Me: No sirree, that would be socialism.
And as we all know, and as has been IIRC said on this very blog, if not in these exact words: “Better dead than red.” (In the older meaning of “red,” of course.)
So death it is.
Those without the wit to realize that “he who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day.”
Those without the wit to realize that “he who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day.”
European fashion designers are already offering lines of 3-piece bikinis for the 2020 summer season. Who knows if they will sell.
Nobody is nuts enough to offer MAGA masks. But Ivanka might give it a shot if Daddy lets her.
–TP
European fashion designers are already offering lines of 3-piece bikinis for the 2020 summer season. Who knows if they will sell.
Nobody is nuts enough to offer MAGA masks. But Ivanka might give it a shot if Daddy lets her.
–TP
If this stylist was one of those “my liberty entails the right to infect other people” people, then I won’t even put into words what I think s/he deserves.
Doesn’t seem likely, since the person was wearing a mask. As far as symptoms go, I’ve been exhibiting symptoms since March 1, because it’s been a terrible allergy season this spring. It’s quite easy for someone who needs to work, and has a cough, to rationalize it.
I’m not in favor of judging people who are making an attempt to do the right thing. This is about a germ. The government is handling it poorly, giving conflicting messages, and making it extremely difficult for people on the edge to cope. People don’t want to live in solitary confinement.
It’s reasonable to try to find safe ways to be somewhat normal. Masks are one thing people are trying. I’m anxious to see what the fallout is from this person who wore a mask, and tried to work.
If this stylist was one of those “my liberty entails the right to infect other people” people, then I won’t even put into words what I think s/he deserves.
Doesn’t seem likely, since the person was wearing a mask. As far as symptoms go, I’ve been exhibiting symptoms since March 1, because it’s been a terrible allergy season this spring. It’s quite easy for someone who needs to work, and has a cough, to rationalize it.
I’m not in favor of judging people who are making an attempt to do the right thing. This is about a germ. The government is handling it poorly, giving conflicting messages, and making it extremely difficult for people on the edge to cope. People don’t want to live in solitary confinement.
It’s reasonable to try to find safe ways to be somewhat normal. Masks are one thing people are trying. I’m anxious to see what the fallout is from this person who wore a mask, and tried to work.
By the way, JanieM, you are in a demographic where you probably get social security, plus (if I’m not mistaken) you work from home. Easy for you to say.
By the way, JanieM, you are in a demographic where you probably get social security, plus (if I’m not mistaken) you work from home. Easy for you to say.
And we should make sure they’re taken care of in every way, financial, medical, child-care-wise, whatever.
That’s funny. Is that happening anywhere? Maybe on a GoFundMe basis.
And we should make sure they’re taken care of in every way, financial, medical, child-care-wise, whatever.
That’s funny. Is that happening anywhere? Maybe on a GoFundMe basis.
Nobody is nuts enough to offer MAGA masks.
Hold my beer.
If you don’t want to wear a mask, stay the hell home. Nobody will make you wear a mask in your own home.
If you want to go into shared public spaces, wear a freaking mask.
As far as the Springfield MO hairdresser goes, I think we need to distinguish between a couple of things.
Being faced with the horrifying choice of not being able to pay the bills vs possibly exposing other people to a horrible and possibly fatal illness is not the same as wanting to “return to normal”. If people are exposing other people to COVID because they want to “return to normal”, somebody should take them aside and give them a clue.
Normal is not available at this time. Proceed from that assumption.
Allergies and COVID-19 have generally different symptoms. If you’re sniffly and congested and your eyes are itchy, you probably have an allergy. If you have a dry cough and a temperature and have lost your sense of smell or taste, you may have COVID. You can get a blood oxygen level monitor for about $20, which isn’t nothing, but it is within reach of most households. If your blood oxygen levels are low, you may have COVID. Allergies and COVID aren’t the same thing, and have different symptoms.
We’d all love for all of this to be over and to be able to do all the things we used to do and enjoy. Those things aren’t available right now, and probably won’t be for a while. All of that sucks.
Trying to pretend otherwise, and putting other people at risk of illness as a result, is freaking irresponsible. There is no excuse for it.
Nobody is nuts enough to offer MAGA masks.
Hold my beer.
If you don’t want to wear a mask, stay the hell home. Nobody will make you wear a mask in your own home.
If you want to go into shared public spaces, wear a freaking mask.
As far as the Springfield MO hairdresser goes, I think we need to distinguish between a couple of things.
Being faced with the horrifying choice of not being able to pay the bills vs possibly exposing other people to a horrible and possibly fatal illness is not the same as wanting to “return to normal”. If people are exposing other people to COVID because they want to “return to normal”, somebody should take them aside and give them a clue.
Normal is not available at this time. Proceed from that assumption.
Allergies and COVID-19 have generally different symptoms. If you’re sniffly and congested and your eyes are itchy, you probably have an allergy. If you have a dry cough and a temperature and have lost your sense of smell or taste, you may have COVID. You can get a blood oxygen level monitor for about $20, which isn’t nothing, but it is within reach of most households. If your blood oxygen levels are low, you may have COVID. Allergies and COVID aren’t the same thing, and have different symptoms.
We’d all love for all of this to be over and to be able to do all the things we used to do and enjoy. Those things aren’t available right now, and probably won’t be for a while. All of that sucks.
Trying to pretend otherwise, and putting other people at risk of illness as a result, is freaking irresponsible. There is no excuse for it.
Is that happening anywhere? Maybe on a GoFundMe basis.
Yes, among other ways. Most likely a variety of things of that nature are available to most if not all people reading this.
The feds under Trump can’t find their ass with two hands and a flashlight, so it’s mostly gonna be up to other actors. Like you and me.
Consider contributing whatever you can.
Is that happening anywhere? Maybe on a GoFundMe basis.
Yes, among other ways. Most likely a variety of things of that nature are available to most if not all people reading this.
The feds under Trump can’t find their ass with two hands and a flashlight, so it’s mostly gonna be up to other actors. Like you and me.
Consider contributing whatever you can.
Allergies and COVID-19 have generally different symptoms.
Not always, and not really. I have actually been taking my temperature, even though I’ve been pretty sure it’s allergies, just to be sure. But, I wor from home, and nobody’s going to fire me if I don’t show up for something.
We’re talking about millions of people trying to figure out what to do day to day. Not just us old people, who (most of us – I know it’s different for hsh and a few others) are pretty normalized with just doing what we do in our house (and I, for one, am not totally in that category, because if I don’t work, we are foreclosed on). We’re talking about people who are terrified about the possibility of being evicted, of being foreclosed on, of having all manner of horrible shit happening to them on June 1, or July 1, or August 1.
So, russell, why did you do that last gig that your wife gave you a side eye? You may want to look back at that time as to why people aren’t as militant as you are today.
Allergies and COVID-19 have generally different symptoms.
Not always, and not really. I have actually been taking my temperature, even though I’ve been pretty sure it’s allergies, just to be sure. But, I wor from home, and nobody’s going to fire me if I don’t show up for something.
We’re talking about millions of people trying to figure out what to do day to day. Not just us old people, who (most of us – I know it’s different for hsh and a few others) are pretty normalized with just doing what we do in our house (and I, for one, am not totally in that category, because if I don’t work, we are foreclosed on). We’re talking about people who are terrified about the possibility of being evicted, of being foreclosed on, of having all manner of horrible shit happening to them on June 1, or July 1, or August 1.
So, russell, why did you do that last gig that your wife gave you a side eye? You may want to look back at that time as to why people aren’t as militant as you are today.
I turned the gig down.
And that was not quite 100k dead people ago.
I am completely sympathetic to people who are facing any of a variety of disasters. I’m all for relaxing lockdown protocols where that can be done safely.
Cutting someone’s hair is working in direct physical contact with that person, for an extended period of time. It’s basically textbook high risk.
Going to work as a hair stylist *while you have symptoms consistent with COVID* is just profoundly irresponsible. Do it long enough and you’ll kill somebody.
The downside of being old enough for social security is that you’re an order of magnitude more likely to die of COVID if you catch it.
I turned the gig down.
And that was not quite 100k dead people ago.
I am completely sympathetic to people who are facing any of a variety of disasters. I’m all for relaxing lockdown protocols where that can be done safely.
Cutting someone’s hair is working in direct physical contact with that person, for an extended period of time. It’s basically textbook high risk.
Going to work as a hair stylist *while you have symptoms consistent with COVID* is just profoundly irresponsible. Do it long enough and you’ll kill somebody.
The downside of being old enough for social security is that you’re an order of magnitude more likely to die of COVID if you catch it.
I turned the gig down.
Good for you. Didn’t catch that follow-up.
Going to work as a hair stylist *while you have symptoms consistent with COVID* is just profoundly irresponsible.
Although I agree-ish, easy for you to say. A person wearing a mask might think that s/he is good to go. And maybe was! I was suggesting that we find out.
The downside of being old enough for social security is that you’re an order of magnitude more likely to die of COVID if you catch it.
The upside is you can probably stay home, where others maybe not.
I turned the gig down.
Good for you. Didn’t catch that follow-up.
Going to work as a hair stylist *while you have symptoms consistent with COVID* is just profoundly irresponsible.
Although I agree-ish, easy for you to say. A person wearing a mask might think that s/he is good to go. And maybe was! I was suggesting that we find out.
The downside of being old enough for social security is that you’re an order of magnitude more likely to die of COVID if you catch it.
The upside is you can probably stay home, where others maybe not.
And maybe was! I was suggesting that we find out.
And how do we find that out? Wait and see who gets sick?
The general effectiveness of different mask materials is, to my understanding, reasonably well known.
Yes, all of this is easy for me to say. I have a job, I can work from home, I’m an introvert to the point of being anti-social so quarantine is basically a net win for me, personally.
I’ve also had periods in my life where no work meant no pay, and I’ve worked sick and/or injured at one time or other. So I get the “do what you gotta do” thing.
But this isn’t the fucking flu. People who have reason to believe they may have COVID should not be cutting hair. They are, literally, putting other people’s lives at risk.
They shouldn’t be forced to make that choice, but we live in a callous and greedy culture, so lots of people are faced with that choice. I get that.
But we all need to do our best to make responsible choices, just as we all need to do our best to help other people do so.
And really, if you’re sick, stay the hell home.
And maybe was! I was suggesting that we find out.
And how do we find that out? Wait and see who gets sick?
The general effectiveness of different mask materials is, to my understanding, reasonably well known.
Yes, all of this is easy for me to say. I have a job, I can work from home, I’m an introvert to the point of being anti-social so quarantine is basically a net win for me, personally.
I’ve also had periods in my life where no work meant no pay, and I’ve worked sick and/or injured at one time or other. So I get the “do what you gotta do” thing.
But this isn’t the fucking flu. People who have reason to believe they may have COVID should not be cutting hair. They are, literally, putting other people’s lives at risk.
They shouldn’t be forced to make that choice, but we live in a callous and greedy culture, so lots of people are faced with that choice. I get that.
But we all need to do our best to make responsible choices, just as we all need to do our best to help other people do so.
And really, if you’re sick, stay the hell home.
And how do we find that out? Wait and see who gets sick?
Yep.
Yes, all of this is easy for me to say. I have a job, I can work from home, I’m an introvert to the point of being anti-social so quarantine is basically a net win for me, personally.
Yep. Lots of us.
Let’s stop it with the hairdresser is bad thing. Or anybody who isn’t a militant anti-mask bullshit person is bad. We can focus on them.
And how do we find that out? Wait and see who gets sick?
Yep.
Yes, all of this is easy for me to say. I have a job, I can work from home, I’m an introvert to the point of being anti-social so quarantine is basically a net win for me, personally.
Yep. Lots of us.
Let’s stop it with the hairdresser is bad thing. Or anybody who isn’t a militant anti-mask bullshit person is bad. We can focus on them.
Sorry – have a lot of distractions. If anyone didn’t get the drift of my previous comment, say so. I’ll explain later.
Sorry – have a lot of distractions. If anyone didn’t get the drift of my previous comment, say so. I’ll explain later.
I’m momentarily without distractions.
We are at a cataclysmic economic point of a major depression.
I’ve also had periods in my life where no work meant no pay, and I’ve worked sick and/or injured at one time or other. So I get the “do what you gotta do” thing.
Yes, but the people who are in that place now are in it perhaps forever.
I’m pro-mask. The hairdresser had a mask. I’m pro-hairdresser.
I’m momentarily without distractions.
We are at a cataclysmic economic point of a major depression.
I’ve also had periods in my life where no work meant no pay, and I’ve worked sick and/or injured at one time or other. So I get the “do what you gotta do” thing.
Yes, but the people who are in that place now are in it perhaps forever.
I’m pro-mask. The hairdresser had a mask. I’m pro-hairdresser.
And how do we find that out? Wait and see who gets sick?
Yep.
No thank you.
And how do we find that out? Wait and see who gets sick?
Yep.
No thank you.
Just to re-focus this – we are talking about somebody who went to work as a hair stylist *while experiencing symptoms of COVID-19*. And, who ended up testing positive for COVID-19. And, who came in sufficiently close contact with 91 other people that those people are now at risk of contracting COVID-19.
Everybody understands that a lot of people are suffering financially due to the virus. Everybody. Statements like “yeah, well, easy for you to say” are freaking rude.
There is a need to prevent widespread financial disaster. There is also a need to prevent 1,000 or more people a day from dying of COVID for the forseeable future. And if you think the numbers are trending in a positive direction, so no worries, take a look with NY factored out.
There are ways to re-open businesses safely. In general that requires:
* Testing
* Contact tracing
* Isolation of people known to be / at risk of being positive
We won’t do those things, because a fairly significant slice of the population suffers from an ignorant, ahistorical, childish understanding of what political liberty means. Some of them will shoot you before they’ll comply with basic public health measures.
So where does that leave us?
Where it leaves us is with the choice of probably millions of people out of work, or probably 1,000 people a day dying of COVID until somebody, somewhere, comes up with a vaccine and that vaccine is made widely available.
You’re in favor of wear a mask, go to work, and we’ll all take our chances. Even if that means people who are sick end up cutting your hair. We’ll just see how it turns out.
I’m not. I don’t want people who have symptoms of COVID cutting hair, serving or preparing food, giving massages or tattoos, or doing anything that involves direct contact with other people. I don’t want them doing anything but staying home, frankly, but at a minimum I don’t want them working directly with other people. Don’t want them on buses or subways or cabs or ride shares. Mask or no mask. Anybody who spends any time out in public understands that mask discipline is…. a mixed bag, at best.
If you have symptoms of COVID, stay the hell home.
In a sane world, “stay the hell home” would be accompanied by “and we’ll make sure you don’t end up starving or homeless”. We don’t live in a sane world. The federal response to all of this has ranged from farcically incompetent to malicious if not criminal. States… vary. So people are going to have to help each other out. If that means GoFundMe, then do that. If that means leaving a 50% or 100% tip when you get a takeout meal, then do that. If that means just giving people you know some money, then do that.
Will it be enough? No, it won’t be enough. Some people are going to be FUBARed by this. FUBARed here means losing their livelihoods, savings, livelihoods.
And guess what? Some other people are going to die from this. Not just die, but die isolated, saying goodbye to their loved ones over a phone, or not at all.
Nobody asked for any of this.
If you’re sick, stay the hell home. Don’t make other people sick.
Just to re-focus this – we are talking about somebody who went to work as a hair stylist *while experiencing symptoms of COVID-19*. And, who ended up testing positive for COVID-19. And, who came in sufficiently close contact with 91 other people that those people are now at risk of contracting COVID-19.
Everybody understands that a lot of people are suffering financially due to the virus. Everybody. Statements like “yeah, well, easy for you to say” are freaking rude.
There is a need to prevent widespread financial disaster. There is also a need to prevent 1,000 or more people a day from dying of COVID for the forseeable future. And if you think the numbers are trending in a positive direction, so no worries, take a look with NY factored out.
There are ways to re-open businesses safely. In general that requires:
* Testing
* Contact tracing
* Isolation of people known to be / at risk of being positive
We won’t do those things, because a fairly significant slice of the population suffers from an ignorant, ahistorical, childish understanding of what political liberty means. Some of them will shoot you before they’ll comply with basic public health measures.
So where does that leave us?
Where it leaves us is with the choice of probably millions of people out of work, or probably 1,000 people a day dying of COVID until somebody, somewhere, comes up with a vaccine and that vaccine is made widely available.
You’re in favor of wear a mask, go to work, and we’ll all take our chances. Even if that means people who are sick end up cutting your hair. We’ll just see how it turns out.
I’m not. I don’t want people who have symptoms of COVID cutting hair, serving or preparing food, giving massages or tattoos, or doing anything that involves direct contact with other people. I don’t want them doing anything but staying home, frankly, but at a minimum I don’t want them working directly with other people. Don’t want them on buses or subways or cabs or ride shares. Mask or no mask. Anybody who spends any time out in public understands that mask discipline is…. a mixed bag, at best.
If you have symptoms of COVID, stay the hell home.
In a sane world, “stay the hell home” would be accompanied by “and we’ll make sure you don’t end up starving or homeless”. We don’t live in a sane world. The federal response to all of this has ranged from farcically incompetent to malicious if not criminal. States… vary. So people are going to have to help each other out. If that means GoFundMe, then do that. If that means leaving a 50% or 100% tip when you get a takeout meal, then do that. If that means just giving people you know some money, then do that.
Will it be enough? No, it won’t be enough. Some people are going to be FUBARed by this. FUBARed here means losing their livelihoods, savings, livelihoods.
And guess what? Some other people are going to die from this. Not just die, but die isolated, saying goodbye to their loved ones over a phone, or not at all.
Nobody asked for any of this.
If you’re sick, stay the hell home. Don’t make other people sick.
Well (definitely not), an increasing number of econonists, economic heavyweights and their political lackeys openly say that 1000 dead (usually silently added: peasants) per day is a price worth paying and that the risk of starving outweighing the risk of death per infection is a proper incentive. When the likes of Lindsay Graham say that any extension of unemployment benefits will be passed only over their dead bodies, he’s wrong only in the way that he does not actually say ‘their’ but ‘our’ (knowing that the risk of getting starved of donations clearly outweighs the risk of getting lanternized by his constituents. Something Hamlet about method and madness, I presume.
Well (definitely not), an increasing number of econonists, economic heavyweights and their political lackeys openly say that 1000 dead (usually silently added: peasants) per day is a price worth paying and that the risk of starving outweighing the risk of death per infection is a proper incentive. When the likes of Lindsay Graham say that any extension of unemployment benefits will be passed only over their dead bodies, he’s wrong only in the way that he does not actually say ‘their’ but ‘our’ (knowing that the risk of getting starved of donations clearly outweighs the risk of getting lanternized by his constituents. Something Hamlet about method and madness, I presume.
NC had 1,108 new cases, yesterday. highest number yet.
people are out eating in restaurants (up to 50% capacity).
NC had 1,108 new cases, yesterday. highest number yet.
people are out eating in restaurants (up to 50% capacity).
You’re in favor of wear a mask, go to work, and we’ll all take our chances.
I’m actually in favor of the measures you mentioned: testing, contact tracing and quarantine of sick people. We don’t live in that world.
Statements like “yeah, well, easy for you to say” are freaking rude.
Perhaps. I’m wondering why people don’t think it’s rude to shame someone who may face eviction, and who may have dependents (like kids) to feed, and whose personal safety net may be depleted. I am not in that situation, and few here are. If I were, I might well tell myself that things would be okay if everyone just tried to be careful.
I’m not in favor of going to work sick. Or at all if people can help it. My hair is a mess, and I’m not changing that anytime soon even though my hairdresser is open for business. However, if some of the precautions we’re learning to take actually work, maybe we can take them, and some people won’t be forced to drown in financial misery. The hairdresser had a mask. Her customers had masks. I hope there’s a follow-up to find out how many people got sick. If no one, it’s not because of a miracle: it’s because of the precautions that were taken.
Very little about the government safety net will change until at least January of 2021. Personal charity isn’t going to save everyone. It would be nice if some people could, with precautions, do what they need to do to survive if that doesn’t mean infecting other people.
I can mostly stay home. On the few occasions otherwise I can stay very far away from people. I’m not in a position to shame people who don’t have that luxury.
You’re in favor of wear a mask, go to work, and we’ll all take our chances.
I’m actually in favor of the measures you mentioned: testing, contact tracing and quarantine of sick people. We don’t live in that world.
Statements like “yeah, well, easy for you to say” are freaking rude.
Perhaps. I’m wondering why people don’t think it’s rude to shame someone who may face eviction, and who may have dependents (like kids) to feed, and whose personal safety net may be depleted. I am not in that situation, and few here are. If I were, I might well tell myself that things would be okay if everyone just tried to be careful.
I’m not in favor of going to work sick. Or at all if people can help it. My hair is a mess, and I’m not changing that anytime soon even though my hairdresser is open for business. However, if some of the precautions we’re learning to take actually work, maybe we can take them, and some people won’t be forced to drown in financial misery. The hairdresser had a mask. Her customers had masks. I hope there’s a follow-up to find out how many people got sick. If no one, it’s not because of a miracle: it’s because of the precautions that were taken.
Very little about the government safety net will change until at least January of 2021. Personal charity isn’t going to save everyone. It would be nice if some people could, with precautions, do what they need to do to survive if that doesn’t mean infecting other people.
I can mostly stay home. On the few occasions otherwise I can stay very far away from people. I’m not in a position to shame people who don’t have that luxury.
From the article russell posted:
The first fact is that the initial experiments with easing the strictures on social and economic life have not generated the spikes in new cases that some predicted. Georgia is the clearest case of this. Neighboring Florida is another. We don’t know yet why this is the case. Perhaps we need to wait longer to see the impact. Perhaps continuing mitigation efforts are more effective than anticipated. Perhaps there are cultural, social, epidemiological or even climatic factors that make these states less susceptible to the kinds of outbreaks we saw in New York and other urban centers in the North. But we’ve seen enough data to say with some confidence that the worst predictions are not coming to pass, or at least not quickly.
From the article russell posted:
The first fact is that the initial experiments with easing the strictures on social and economic life have not generated the spikes in new cases that some predicted. Georgia is the clearest case of this. Neighboring Florida is another. We don’t know yet why this is the case. Perhaps we need to wait longer to see the impact. Perhaps continuing mitigation efforts are more effective than anticipated. Perhaps there are cultural, social, epidemiological or even climatic factors that make these states less susceptible to the kinds of outbreaks we saw in New York and other urban centers in the North. But we’ve seen enough data to say with some confidence that the worst predictions are not coming to pass, or at least not quickly.
Georgia is the clearest case of this.
oh i wouldn’t say that. since, the GA govt is lying about the numbers.
Georgia is the clearest case of this.
oh i wouldn’t say that. since, the GA govt is lying about the numbers.
I’ll be more impressed by the cases Marty notes when we’ve got a month of data from them. (And even then not so much with Florida. Which, it appears, may be fudging their data.)
I’ll be more impressed by the cases Marty notes when we’ve got a month of data from them. (And even then not so much with Florida. Which, it appears, may be fudging their data.)
Well, while certain state officials attempt to hide the true # of deaths from COVID-19 (even setting aside the question of what is a death from COVID-19), do they not understand that people are also tracking the # deaths in general, and that that # can be compared to some baseline?
Or maybe they think they can hide those #s too.
Anything can be called “fake news” these days, after all.
Back in real life, there are lots of complexities to every aspect of this kind of counting.
Well, while certain state officials attempt to hide the true # of deaths from COVID-19 (even setting aside the question of what is a death from COVID-19), do they not understand that people are also tracking the # deaths in general, and that that # can be compared to some baseline?
Or maybe they think they can hide those #s too.
Anything can be called “fake news” these days, after all.
Back in real life, there are lots of complexities to every aspect of this kind of counting.
Interesting article in the WaPo (I weakened and got a subscription) on the economic implications of each death as usually calculated by government when considering e.g. public health innovations, and the surprising lack of such calculation during the pandemic:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/05/23/government-has-spent-decades-studying-what-life-is-worth-it-hasnt-made-difference-covid-19-crisis/
Economists at the University of Wyoming estimated the economic benefits from lives saved by efforts to “flatten the curve” outweighed the projected massive hit to the nation’s economy by a staggering $5.2 trillion. Another study by two University of Chicago economists estimated the savings from social distancing could be so huge, “it is difficult to think of any intervention with such large potential benefits to American citizens.”
***
What these academics are doing — and what Trump’s tweet is getting at — is measuring how the extreme efforts to avoid covid-19 deaths compare to the devastating economic fallout. They do this by putting a price tag on the deaths avoided. It’s something the federal government does all the time when deciding whether to require carmakers to install new safety features or drugmakers to add new warning labels. And it’s required by law for big-ticket new regulations, such as road safety laws and pollution controls.
But this kind of approach has been missing from the debate about how to respond to the covid-19 pandemic, which has killed almost 100,000 Americans and fueled historic unemployment rates.
Interesting article in the WaPo (I weakened and got a subscription) on the economic implications of each death as usually calculated by government when considering e.g. public health innovations, and the surprising lack of such calculation during the pandemic:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/05/23/government-has-spent-decades-studying-what-life-is-worth-it-hasnt-made-difference-covid-19-crisis/
Economists at the University of Wyoming estimated the economic benefits from lives saved by efforts to “flatten the curve” outweighed the projected massive hit to the nation’s economy by a staggering $5.2 trillion. Another study by two University of Chicago economists estimated the savings from social distancing could be so huge, “it is difficult to think of any intervention with such large potential benefits to American citizens.”
***
What these academics are doing — and what Trump’s tweet is getting at — is measuring how the extreme efforts to avoid covid-19 deaths compare to the devastating economic fallout. They do this by putting a price tag on the deaths avoided. It’s something the federal government does all the time when deciding whether to require carmakers to install new safety features or drugmakers to add new warning labels. And it’s required by law for big-ticket new regulations, such as road safety laws and pollution controls.
But this kind of approach has been missing from the debate about how to respond to the covid-19 pandemic, which has killed almost 100,000 Americans and fueled historic unemployment rates.
Sorry, trying to do an italiexo!
Sorry, trying to do an italiexo!
I’m not in favor of going to work sick.
Since that is the situation we’re actually discussing, it appears we are of one mind.
I’m not in favor of going to work sick.
Since that is the situation we’re actually discussing, it appears we are of one mind.
Since that is the situation we’re actually discussing, it appears we are of one mind.
A lot of people are going to work while contagious (often not knowing they are sick), and relying on masks and hygiene. Whether those precautions are effective is the question I was pondering, and IMHO a more worthwhile discussion than shaming people who are fearful of losing their income.
Since that is the situation we’re actually discussing, it appears we are of one mind.
A lot of people are going to work while contagious (often not knowing they are sick), and relying on masks and hygiene. Whether those precautions are effective is the question I was pondering, and IMHO a more worthwhile discussion than shaming people who are fearful of losing their income.
The flip side is shaming people who are fearful of themselves or others slowly drowning alone in a hospital bed, which is also a thing right now.
The flip side is shaming people who are fearful of themselves or others slowly drowning alone in a hospital bed, which is also a thing right now.
Since that is the situation we’re actually discussing, it appears we are of one mind.
Shaming people in any situation seems counterproductive, especially when there’s so much opportunity for people to learn ways to cope with whatever situation they happen to face.
Since that is the situation we’re actually discussing, it appears we are of one mind.
Shaming people in any situation seems counterproductive, especially when there’s so much opportunity for people to learn ways to cope with whatever situation they happen to face.
What is your tut-tutting of people writing comments on a blog if not shaming? And how does one learn ways to cope with being dead? It seems cleek’s comment about a COVID-positive hairdresser with symptoms started this, so what happens if some of the people potentially exposed end up infected? What happens if someone dies as a result? Shaming seems kind of insignificant next to that.
Maybe I’m not getting your point here, sapient.
What is your tut-tutting of people writing comments on a blog if not shaming? And how does one learn ways to cope with being dead? It seems cleek’s comment about a COVID-positive hairdresser with symptoms started this, so what happens if some of the people potentially exposed end up infected? What happens if someone dies as a result? Shaming seems kind of insignificant next to that.
Maybe I’m not getting your point here, sapient.
Please forgive a question from someone who is, perhaps, less socially aware than others. Is “shaming” a blanket term? Or is there some level at which you can communicate to someone else that their behavior is not (any longer) socially acceptable? Some level where you are doing something that is only teaching. Or is anything you might do in an attempt to communicate necessarily shaming?
Thanks for any enlightenment you can provide.
Please forgive a question from someone who is, perhaps, less socially aware than others. Is “shaming” a blanket term? Or is there some level at which you can communicate to someone else that their behavior is not (any longer) socially acceptable? Some level where you are doing something that is only teaching. Or is anything you might do in an attempt to communicate necessarily shaming?
Thanks for any enlightenment you can provide.
Or is there some level at which you can communicate to someone else that their behavior is not (any longer) socially acceptable?
How do we determine what’s socially acceptable if we don’t know whether the behavior caused a problem? There was a hairdresser who had Covid symptoms (which s/he may or may not have known were Covid) who wore a mask, and (let’s assume for this exercise) washed hands or wore gloves, using recommended sanitation protocols, and her customers also wore protective equipment. Let’s assume also that the symptoms are irrelevant since Covid is spread by asymptomatic people.
Let’s assume that nobody got sick. We can conclude that the protocol worked.
Let’s now assume that several people got sick from the contact. We can now conclude that the protocol did not work, and that it is NEVER safe to go to a hairdresser because there’s no guarantee that the hairdresser is without disease.
We can be safer if we wait until the hairdresser is required to be tested at regular intervals, and displays the results in the shop.
Isn’t this conversation more constructive than assessing the level of recklessness of this particular hairdresser? Yet people seem offended by the idea that maybe the masks worked, and we should find out. I hope they did keep the disease away from the customers. If so, we don’t have to worry as much about the hairdresser’s decisions so long as we know that the protocols are in place. But that wouldn’t be nearly as fun.
Or is there some level at which you can communicate to someone else that their behavior is not (any longer) socially acceptable?
How do we determine what’s socially acceptable if we don’t know whether the behavior caused a problem? There was a hairdresser who had Covid symptoms (which s/he may or may not have known were Covid) who wore a mask, and (let’s assume for this exercise) washed hands or wore gloves, using recommended sanitation protocols, and her customers also wore protective equipment. Let’s assume also that the symptoms are irrelevant since Covid is spread by asymptomatic people.
Let’s assume that nobody got sick. We can conclude that the protocol worked.
Let’s now assume that several people got sick from the contact. We can now conclude that the protocol did not work, and that it is NEVER safe to go to a hairdresser because there’s no guarantee that the hairdresser is without disease.
We can be safer if we wait until the hairdresser is required to be tested at regular intervals, and displays the results in the shop.
Isn’t this conversation more constructive than assessing the level of recklessness of this particular hairdresser? Yet people seem offended by the idea that maybe the masks worked, and we should find out. I hope they did keep the disease away from the customers. If so, we don’t have to worry as much about the hairdresser’s decisions so long as we know that the protocols are in place. But that wouldn’t be nearly as fun.
I dunno’, but maybe sapient is trying to convey the plight of somebody who (rightly or wrongly) feels they are at the end of their economic rope, having been ill-served by our joke of a safety net, and decided they have no other choice but to return to work, and “shaming” them is not going to convince them to reconsider that decision, and thus is counterproductive.
It’s an argument, but it is misplaced.
The real shaming should be directed against the Trump administration, the GOP, its funders, and the conservative movement in general. But as we all well know, those folks are utterly shameless.
They need to be taken to the political woodshed.
I dunno’, but maybe sapient is trying to convey the plight of somebody who (rightly or wrongly) feels they are at the end of their economic rope, having been ill-served by our joke of a safety net, and decided they have no other choice but to return to work, and “shaming” them is not going to convince them to reconsider that decision, and thus is counterproductive.
It’s an argument, but it is misplaced.
The real shaming should be directed against the Trump administration, the GOP, its funders, and the conservative movement in general. But as we all well know, those folks are utterly shameless.
They need to be taken to the political woodshed.
FFS, this is not about “shaming people who are trying to make a living”.
If you’re sick, you shouldn’t be working if your job involves direct contact with other people. Period. That was true before COVID. It’s true if you have regular influenza, it’s true if you have a freaking head cold. It surely is true if you have symptoms of COVID.
Imagine if the hairdresser, having tested positive for COVID, went back to work, except we put a sign at their station – “this hairdresser has tested positive for COVID, but is wearing a mask for your protection”. Think anyone would let that person cut their hair, mask or not? Would you?
You’re asking people to take that risk, without even knowing they’re doing so. It’s insane.
If you really want to shut the economy down, by all means move forward with a policy that anyone who thinks they might be sick should come to work nonetheless, as long as they wear a mask.
Good luck with that.
If you’re sick, stay home.
FFS, this is not about “shaming people who are trying to make a living”.
If you’re sick, you shouldn’t be working if your job involves direct contact with other people. Period. That was true before COVID. It’s true if you have regular influenza, it’s true if you have a freaking head cold. It surely is true if you have symptoms of COVID.
Imagine if the hairdresser, having tested positive for COVID, went back to work, except we put a sign at their station – “this hairdresser has tested positive for COVID, but is wearing a mask for your protection”. Think anyone would let that person cut their hair, mask or not? Would you?
You’re asking people to take that risk, without even knowing they’re doing so. It’s insane.
If you really want to shut the economy down, by all means move forward with a policy that anyone who thinks they might be sick should come to work nonetheless, as long as they wear a mask.
Good luck with that.
If you’re sick, stay home.
I don’t think individual people should be running their own personal experiments on the effectiveness of COVID-19 safety precautions. That’s stupid.
I don’t think individual people should be running their own personal experiments on the effectiveness of COVID-19 safety precautions. That’s stupid.
Thanks, bobbyp.
Would you?
As I’ve indicated, I would like to know whether masks work to protect a customer from a hairdresser who has Covid. It doesn’t matter whether the person is symptomatic. Although I trust my hairdresser to be as careful as possible, I am going to purchase a gift certificate for myself from her shop so that I can wait a little longer. She is working, even though she’s worried about it, because she can no longer afford not to.
Thanks, bobbyp.
Would you?
As I’ve indicated, I would like to know whether masks work to protect a customer from a hairdresser who has Covid. It doesn’t matter whether the person is symptomatic. Although I trust my hairdresser to be as careful as possible, I am going to purchase a gift certificate for myself from her shop so that I can wait a little longer. She is working, even though she’s worried about it, because she can no longer afford not to.
I don’t think individual people should be running their own personal experiments on the effectiveness of COVID-19 safety precautions. That’s stupid.
And yet that’s what is occurring in all states that allow certain things to go on as long as there are safety precautions. So we might as well get the data as to the effectiveness of the safety precautions.
I don’t think individual people should be running their own personal experiments on the effectiveness of COVID-19 safety precautions. That’s stupid.
And yet that’s what is occurring in all states that allow certain things to go on as long as there are safety precautions. So we might as well get the data as to the effectiveness of the safety precautions.
Although I trust my hairdresser to be as careful as possible, I am going to purchase a gift certificate for myself from her shop so that I can wait a little longer.
So, that’s a “no”. You would not take that risk.
You are, however, willing to let other people do so.
Although I trust my hairdresser to be as careful as possible, I am going to purchase a gift certificate for myself from her shop so that I can wait a little longer.
So, that’s a “no”. You would not take that risk.
You are, however, willing to let other people do so.
How do we determine what’s socially acceptable if we don’t know whether the behavior caused a problem?
“Social acceptable” is a very different thing from “scientifically shown to be effective”.
How do we determine what’s socially acceptable if we don’t know whether the behavior caused a problem?
“Social acceptable” is a very different thing from “scientifically shown to be effective”.
So we might as well get the data as to the effectiveness of the safety precautions.
I imagine we will. But I don’t think it makes it okay for people who have reason to think they’re infected to knowingly expose other people, regardless of the precautions they’re taking. The precautions aren’t perfect. They reduce the chances of spread, and are intended for people who don’t already have reason to think they’re infectious. Masks and such are for the reduction of asymptomatic spread, not some game of Russian roulette.
So we might as well get the data as to the effectiveness of the safety precautions.
I imagine we will. But I don’t think it makes it okay for people who have reason to think they’re infected to knowingly expose other people, regardless of the precautions they’re taking. The precautions aren’t perfect. They reduce the chances of spread, and are intended for people who don’t already have reason to think they’re infectious. Masks and such are for the reduction of asymptomatic spread, not some game of Russian roulette.
You are, however, willing to let other people do so.
Yes.
The governor has opened the state’s hair salons for business with certain PPE requirements. People have the choice to take that risk. I wouldn’t walk on a tightrope, or ride a motorcycle, but some people want to do that.
Would I rather all people who have been put out of work be given sufficient money to pay their ongoing bills? Yes, but that won’t happen soon.
You are, however, willing to let other people do so.
Yes.
The governor has opened the state’s hair salons for business with certain PPE requirements. People have the choice to take that risk. I wouldn’t walk on a tightrope, or ride a motorcycle, but some people want to do that.
Would I rather all people who have been put out of work be given sufficient money to pay their ongoing bills? Yes, but that won’t happen soon.
It doesn’t matter whether the person is symptomatic.
Surely it matters in this respect. If in the population of people with Covid, some have symptoms and some do not, the risk of transmission is surely numerically less if of that group the ones who are symptomatic refrain from contact with others. If you have no symptoms, you can be forgiven for thinking you are well, and not posing a risk, so financial need can reasonably prompt you to work, while trying to minimise any risk by wearing a mask. If you have symptoms, this reasoning is not available to you. You are knowingly doing something which risks making others ill, or maybe even killing them.
It doesn’t matter whether the person is symptomatic.
Surely it matters in this respect. If in the population of people with Covid, some have symptoms and some do not, the risk of transmission is surely numerically less if of that group the ones who are symptomatic refrain from contact with others. If you have no symptoms, you can be forgiven for thinking you are well, and not posing a risk, so financial need can reasonably prompt you to work, while trying to minimise any risk by wearing a mask. If you have symptoms, this reasoning is not available to you. You are knowingly doing something which risks making others ill, or maybe even killing them.
But I don’t think it makes it okay for people who have reason to think they’re infected to knowingly expose other people, regardless of the precautions they’re taking.
I’ve had a sore throat and been coughing on and off since March 1. I think I’m fine: it’s allergy season. Maybe the hairdresser thought s/he was fine. There are a whole lot of assumptions being made.
If hair salons aren’t safe with the PPE that’s required, they’re not safe. It shouldn’t be a matter of whether a hairdresser has made a correct assessment about the state of his/her health. If a health assessment is required, there should be a standard protocol for tests.
But I don’t think it makes it okay for people who have reason to think they’re infected to knowingly expose other people, regardless of the precautions they’re taking.
I’ve had a sore throat and been coughing on and off since March 1. I think I’m fine: it’s allergy season. Maybe the hairdresser thought s/he was fine. There are a whole lot of assumptions being made.
If hair salons aren’t safe with the PPE that’s required, they’re not safe. It shouldn’t be a matter of whether a hairdresser has made a correct assessment about the state of his/her health. If a health assessment is required, there should be a standard protocol for tests.
Maybe the hairdresser thought s/he was fine.
You’d have to ask the hairdresser. But, as a general matter, do you think people who have symptoms of COVID-19 shouldn’t isolate until cleared by testing? If you’ve had a sore throat and an occasional cough for months, you can be pretty sure it’s not because of COVID-19. People may make the wrong call, but they should be doing their best. If you really suspected you were infected, would you go out and about (perhaps just to see what would happen)?
Maybe the hairdresser thought s/he was fine.
You’d have to ask the hairdresser. But, as a general matter, do you think people who have symptoms of COVID-19 shouldn’t isolate until cleared by testing? If you’ve had a sore throat and an occasional cough for months, you can be pretty sure it’s not because of COVID-19. People may make the wrong call, but they should be doing their best. If you really suspected you were infected, would you go out and about (perhaps just to see what would happen)?
If you really suspected you were infected, would you go out and about (perhaps just to see what would happen)?
Of course not. I doubt that was the hairdresser’s story either. We definitely would have to ask the hairdresser.
My guess is that, like a lot of people in other situations, the hairdresser thought things would be okay as long as s/he was careful and took the right precautions. After all, s/he wasn’t so sick s/he couldn’t stand there all day long and work, right? So it probably wasn’t really Covid, right? And the masks supposedly protect people, right?
Opening hair salons is inherently risky. The hairdressers should not bear the blame for common human behavior that is not always ideal when the risk is inherent.
If you really suspected you were infected, would you go out and about (perhaps just to see what would happen)?
Of course not. I doubt that was the hairdresser’s story either. We definitely would have to ask the hairdresser.
My guess is that, like a lot of people in other situations, the hairdresser thought things would be okay as long as s/he was careful and took the right precautions. After all, s/he wasn’t so sick s/he couldn’t stand there all day long and work, right? So it probably wasn’t really Covid, right? And the masks supposedly protect people, right?
Opening hair salons is inherently risky. The hairdressers should not bear the blame for common human behavior that is not always ideal when the risk is inherent.
If you want to defend this one hairdresser from negative blog comments s/he will never read, knock yourself out. But it seems like it’s distracting from the larger issues and makes your reasoning hard to follow.
If you want to defend this one hairdresser from negative blog comments s/he will never read, knock yourself out. But it seems like it’s distracting from the larger issues and makes your reasoning hard to follow.
I wouldn’t walk on a tightrope, or ride a motorcycle, but some people want to do that.
The crucial bit of context you’re missing here, is that people who walk tightropes or ride motorcycles know they are doing so.
Enough of this. Have a nice day.
I wouldn’t walk on a tightrope, or ride a motorcycle, but some people want to do that.
The crucial bit of context you’re missing here, is that people who walk tightropes or ride motorcycles know they are doing so.
Enough of this. Have a nice day.
the larger issues
The larger issue is this:
We are opening up certain businesses. It’s risky to do so. The individuals who work in these professions (most of whom badly need a paycheck) are not the people who should bear the blame for the fallout of a risky decision. If we open businesses, we should establish protocols that work to keep people safe. We should figure out how well the protocols work, and hold business owners responsible for following protocols.
People should never go to work sick. But people do, rationalizing it all kinds of ways, especially when the amount of their paycheck is directly related to their attendance. That has to be taken into consideration when policies are made.
the larger issues
The larger issue is this:
We are opening up certain businesses. It’s risky to do so. The individuals who work in these professions (most of whom badly need a paycheck) are not the people who should bear the blame for the fallout of a risky decision. If we open businesses, we should establish protocols that work to keep people safe. We should figure out how well the protocols work, and hold business owners responsible for following protocols.
People should never go to work sick. But people do, rationalizing it all kinds of ways, especially when the amount of their paycheck is directly related to their attendance. That has to be taken into consideration when policies are made.
people who walk tightropes or ride motorcycles know they are doing so.
And I know that it is risky for someone who touches people for a living then touch me for an hour or so. Which is how I weigh my decision. Not so different, really.
Have a nice day.
Back atcha.
people who walk tightropes or ride motorcycles know they are doing so.
And I know that it is risky for someone who touches people for a living then touch me for an hour or so. Which is how I weigh my decision. Not so different, really.
Have a nice day.
Back atcha.
This discussion is bogging down under inapt analogies. This is not the same as engaging in risky personal behavior (tightropes), or even individual behavior that puts others at risk (drunk driving). We are dealing with contagion, so my going out while drunk runs the risk of turning everyone else I come in contact with into a drunk driver as well.
This is a difference as profound as the difference between microecon and macroecon.
And it’s not a public health question, it’s an ethics question. We can learn things about our public health policy decision from this ethical dilemma, but it is still, at its heart, a question of ethics.
This discussion is bogging down under inapt analogies. This is not the same as engaging in risky personal behavior (tightropes), or even individual behavior that puts others at risk (drunk driving). We are dealing with contagion, so my going out while drunk runs the risk of turning everyone else I come in contact with into a drunk driver as well.
This is a difference as profound as the difference between microecon and macroecon.
And it’s not a public health question, it’s an ethics question. We can learn things about our public health policy decision from this ethical dilemma, but it is still, at its heart, a question of ethics.
As I’ve indicated, I would like to know whether masks work to protect a customer from a hairdresser who has Covid.
for one thing, masks aren’t perfect. that “95” in “N95” means it stops 95% of particles 0.3 microns across, if worn correctly, if it’s new. 5% still get through.
if it’s not worn correctly, all bets are off.
if the wearer has been wearing it a while, it will become saturated and particles will get through. if the wearer touches her eyes, the mask becomes is irrelevant. if she touches your head, and you don’t know she’s contagious, and you touch your head on your way out the door…
was she wearing it in the break room?
did she touch her face while she had it off?
all that personal service stuff is the last thing that should be opened, IMO.
As I’ve indicated, I would like to know whether masks work to protect a customer from a hairdresser who has Covid.
for one thing, masks aren’t perfect. that “95” in “N95” means it stops 95% of particles 0.3 microns across, if worn correctly, if it’s new. 5% still get through.
if it’s not worn correctly, all bets are off.
if the wearer has been wearing it a while, it will become saturated and particles will get through. if the wearer touches her eyes, the mask becomes is irrelevant. if she touches your head, and you don’t know she’s contagious, and you touch your head on your way out the door…
was she wearing it in the break room?
did she touch her face while she had it off?
all that personal service stuff is the last thing that should be opened, IMO.
We are dealing with contagion, so my going out while drunk runs the risk of turning everyone else I come in contact with into a drunk driver as well.
Perfect point.
We are dealing with contagion, so my going out while drunk runs the risk of turning everyone else I come in contact with into a drunk driver as well.
Perfect point.
a question of ethics.
Do I feed my children, or do I take a calculated risk of infecting people with a virus I may or may not have, and may or may not be able to control with PPE?
That’s the question faced by the hairdresser. Most of us don’t have to face that, thank goodness. We have to decide whether or not to get our hair done. I think I’ll wait awhile.
a question of ethics.
Do I feed my children, or do I take a calculated risk of infecting people with a virus I may or may not have, and may or may not be able to control with PPE?
That’s the question faced by the hairdresser. Most of us don’t have to face that, thank goodness. We have to decide whether or not to get our hair done. I think I’ll wait awhile.
Second stylist at same place tests positive.
https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/coronvirus-infected-missouri-hair-stylist-springfield-2nd/63-4b874ce0-17e1-4f23-a28b-fce24381fd47
Second stylist at same place tests positive.
https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/coronvirus-infected-missouri-hair-stylist-springfield-2nd/63-4b874ce0-17e1-4f23-a28b-fce24381fd47
Was this okay, too? Does going to the gym nourish children?
While infectious, the same individual also visited a Walmart and a Dairy Queen and made three visits to a local gym, they said.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/23/missouri-hair-stylist-coronavirus-exposure
Was this okay, too? Does going to the gym nourish children?
While infectious, the same individual also visited a Walmart and a Dairy Queen and made three visits to a local gym, they said.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/23/missouri-hair-stylist-coronavirus-exposure
From the article:
“Missouri’s governor, Michael Parson, did not immediately respond to a request for comment on whether the potential exposures of 91 people at a hair salon would alter the state’s thinking on whether salons and barbershops should remain open during the pandemic.”
To me, this should be our focus, not on people who are making poor choices that public policies offer them.
(It appears that gyms are also open for business in Missouri. Why?)
From the article:
“Missouri’s governor, Michael Parson, did not immediately respond to a request for comment on whether the potential exposures of 91 people at a hair salon would alter the state’s thinking on whether salons and barbershops should remain open during the pandemic.”
To me, this should be our focus, not on people who are making poor choices that public policies offer them.
(It appears that gyms are also open for business in Missouri. Why?)
The local paper had stuff about a few gyms in NJ defying state orders to stay closed…with the owner (and lots of a-hole patrons) complaining loudly that “constitutional rights are being infringed”.
I’m sure those staunch patriots would be able to cite the exact clause of the Constitution that provides a right to “work out at the gym”, just as The Founders™ intended.
Or maybe it’s one of those “emanations and penumbras” I’ve heard about; except that what I’ve heard (from RWNJs) is that they’re totally bogus. Suck it MAGAts.
The local paper had stuff about a few gyms in NJ defying state orders to stay closed…with the owner (and lots of a-hole patrons) complaining loudly that “constitutional rights are being infringed”.
I’m sure those staunch patriots would be able to cite the exact clause of the Constitution that provides a right to “work out at the gym”, just as The Founders™ intended.
Or maybe it’s one of those “emanations and penumbras” I’ve heard about; except that what I’ve heard (from RWNJs) is that they’re totally bogus. Suck it MAGAts.
We do not know that feeding her children or not was the question that the hairdresser faced. We know that some people face this choice, yes, but we cannot just accept that possibility as a reason to treat the whole issue as if that were the default.
There are all sorts of reasons why a person might be coerced by circumstances to engage in risky behavior. And there are all different levels of knowledge that might make a person’s decision making process more or less ethical.
But judging the ethics of the decision is not the same thing as judging the ethics of the behavior.
This is not a theoretical question for me. I taught in a classroom during the weeks prior to the stay-at-home order under a contract that did not allow for the possibility of me taking time off for illness, and losing that job would also lose me eligibility for my family’s housing.
Just because I was in that contingent position, though, does not mean that I am not ethically obligated to the students who share that classroom with me, or the other faculty on campus who share those students with me, or the staff who share the campus with the students and faculty, or the families of those people, etc.
There was a lot of hoping for the best going on all through January to March, not the least because any one of the people touched by my decision may have been asymptomatic.
But if I had had a fever or had a cough that was different from my normal seasonal allergies? Yeah, not an ethical choice to step into the classroom. Period. No matter how bad any of us might feel for my personal circumstances.
We do not know that feeding her children or not was the question that the hairdresser faced. We know that some people face this choice, yes, but we cannot just accept that possibility as a reason to treat the whole issue as if that were the default.
There are all sorts of reasons why a person might be coerced by circumstances to engage in risky behavior. And there are all different levels of knowledge that might make a person’s decision making process more or less ethical.
But judging the ethics of the decision is not the same thing as judging the ethics of the behavior.
This is not a theoretical question for me. I taught in a classroom during the weeks prior to the stay-at-home order under a contract that did not allow for the possibility of me taking time off for illness, and losing that job would also lose me eligibility for my family’s housing.
Just because I was in that contingent position, though, does not mean that I am not ethically obligated to the students who share that classroom with me, or the other faculty on campus who share those students with me, or the staff who share the campus with the students and faculty, or the families of those people, etc.
There was a lot of hoping for the best going on all through January to March, not the least because any one of the people touched by my decision may have been asymptomatic.
But if I had had a fever or had a cough that was different from my normal seasonal allergies? Yeah, not an ethical choice to step into the classroom. Period. No matter how bad any of us might feel for my personal circumstances.
To me, this should be our focus, not on people who are making poor choices that public policies offer them.
I don’t think it’s public policy to go into public places if you’re sick. And I’m not making policy, anyway. Regardless, it’s possible to note both that the policy is stupid and that the person might not give much of a sh*t about other people.
To me, this should be our focus, not on people who are making poor choices that public policies offer them.
I don’t think it’s public policy to go into public places if you’re sick. And I’m not making policy, anyway. Regardless, it’s possible to note both that the policy is stupid and that the person might not give much of a sh*t about other people.
I agree with Sapient.
Don’t blame peasants for surviving. (paraphrasing). I know members of my own family that have still not received a dime of unemployment during this crisis. As a family, we can float them, but not everyone has that.
Given that peasants have to survive, we should use the data generated to see what is working. So far as I can tell, that is the entirety of Sapient’s point.
I don’t use peasant as derogatory, but as descriptive of our reality.
I agree with Sapient.
Don’t blame peasants for surviving. (paraphrasing). I know members of my own family that have still not received a dime of unemployment during this crisis. As a family, we can float them, but not everyone has that.
Given that peasants have to survive, we should use the data generated to see what is working. So far as I can tell, that is the entirety of Sapient’s point.
I don’t use peasant as derogatory, but as descriptive of our reality.
that “95” in “N95” means it stops 95% of particles 0.3 microns across
lemme rephrase that.
that “95” in “N95” means 1 out of every 20 small, possibly virus-laden, droplets get through.
100,000 dead.
this is serious shit.
that “95” in “N95” means it stops 95% of particles 0.3 microns across
lemme rephrase that.
that “95” in “N95” means 1 out of every 20 small, possibly virus-laden, droplets get through.
100,000 dead.
this is serious shit.
Sapient, I’m not really sure what is up with you, but it seems like you are just picking fights. This isn’t facebook where people can’t pull up your previous comments so your concern about shaming is something that seems particularly off given your extensive comments on the blog.
Maybe you are in lockdown and not going out and need the back and forth of a debate. I’d suggest you pick something more interesting that could be discussed rather than trying to shame people for shaming people. There is a lot out there to talk about. But jumping down other people’s throats because you’ve got nothing else to do is not really making this place a place where people might want to talk. Thanks.
Sapient, I’m not really sure what is up with you, but it seems like you are just picking fights. This isn’t facebook where people can’t pull up your previous comments so your concern about shaming is something that seems particularly off given your extensive comments on the blog.
Maybe you are in lockdown and not going out and need the back and forth of a debate. I’d suggest you pick something more interesting that could be discussed rather than trying to shame people for shaming people. There is a lot out there to talk about. But jumping down other people’s throats because you’ve got nothing else to do is not really making this place a place where people might want to talk. Thanks.
So the claim is don’t blame your neighbor for secretly exposing you to the virus that they suspect that they have but are scared to admit to because they fear their economic circumstances.
This is not peasants and nobles. This is peasants deciding how to treat each other in the face of mistreatment by the nobility.
She wasn’t cutting Mnuchin’s hair.
More’s the pity.
So the claim is don’t blame your neighbor for secretly exposing you to the virus that they suspect that they have but are scared to admit to because they fear their economic circumstances.
This is not peasants and nobles. This is peasants deciding how to treat each other in the face of mistreatment by the nobility.
She wasn’t cutting Mnuchin’s hair.
More’s the pity.
Again, the failure is not that someone showed up for work. It is that they had to show up for work while sick, or bear the entire cost of not working themselves. All sapient is saying (I believe) is the blame is not on those trying to survive, but on the system that made it so. 3 Trillion in economic debt, and hairdressers have to work or bear the price themselves. Why are we focused on the victims, rather than the cause?
Again, the failure is not that someone showed up for work. It is that they had to show up for work while sick, or bear the entire cost of not working themselves. All sapient is saying (I believe) is the blame is not on those trying to survive, but on the system that made it so. 3 Trillion in economic debt, and hairdressers have to work or bear the price themselves. Why are we focused on the victims, rather than the cause?
nous, you are on fire, and not for the first time!
jrudkis: long time no see. It’s good to see you, but I think nous really nails it on the “peasants” point.
nous, you are on fire, and not for the first time!
jrudkis: long time no see. It’s good to see you, but I think nous really nails it on the “peasants” point.
The person went to the gym sick. What system forced that on him/her? Regardless, I don’t think anyone is arguing against a better system or gathering information on the transmission of the disease. We can manage multiple thoughts. We can discuss books and TV shows and music and architecture and languages and math puzzles and plants and birds and comedy and insects, too.
The person went to the gym sick. What system forced that on him/her? Regardless, I don’t think anyone is arguing against a better system or gathering information on the transmission of the disease. We can manage multiple thoughts. We can discuss books and TV shows and music and architecture and languages and math puzzles and plants and birds and comedy and insects, too.
Back to my earlier point about this not being theoretical.
Say I had developed specific symptoms that suggested COVID during the spring, and that the University held to its policy that I get no sick time under my contract.
So, as a peasant, I have to go to work or suffer.
I can go teach as normal and wear a mask and not tell anyone and hope for the best.
I can send an email to the students saying that I am not feeling well, but that I can’t cancel class due to university policies, but that I won’t count them absent if they choose not to come to class.
I can put a sign up on the door of the classroom saying that someone with symptoms had used the room and that it should be thoroughly cleaned before anyone else uses it.
I can send an email to my colleagues saying that I have to teach despite being sick for reasons we all understand, but that I want them to know about this in case they share an office or a classroom.
I can go to the Admin building (wearing a mask) and ask to meet with labor relations and then let them know in the meeting that I came to the meeting from my empty classroom because the contract they negotiated forced me to go to class or face a loss of income, and then let them worry…
I can stay home and bite the bullet and hope for the best.
Is there, or is there not, an ethical difference between any of these scenarios?
Back to my earlier point about this not being theoretical.
Say I had developed specific symptoms that suggested COVID during the spring, and that the University held to its policy that I get no sick time under my contract.
So, as a peasant, I have to go to work or suffer.
I can go teach as normal and wear a mask and not tell anyone and hope for the best.
I can send an email to the students saying that I am not feeling well, but that I can’t cancel class due to university policies, but that I won’t count them absent if they choose not to come to class.
I can put a sign up on the door of the classroom saying that someone with symptoms had used the room and that it should be thoroughly cleaned before anyone else uses it.
I can send an email to my colleagues saying that I have to teach despite being sick for reasons we all understand, but that I want them to know about this in case they share an office or a classroom.
I can go to the Admin building (wearing a mask) and ask to meet with labor relations and then let them know in the meeting that I came to the meeting from my empty classroom because the contract they negotiated forced me to go to class or face a loss of income, and then let them worry…
I can stay home and bite the bullet and hope for the best.
Is there, or is there not, an ethical difference between any of these scenarios?
Also, too, noting that people are making dangerous choices is what informs changes in public health policy. It’s whole f**king point of policy – to prevent dangerous behavior as much as possible.
Also, too, noting that people are making dangerous choices is what informs changes in public health policy. It’s whole f**king point of policy – to prevent dangerous behavior as much as possible.
GFTNC, thanks. I love the conversation here, but I am not in favor of some of the more militant comments that I saw before I left for a while.
I don’t agree on peasants. Peasants can’t afford to not work to help neighbors. We have plenty of history on this point. A Hairdresser today is roughly a subsistence farmer who is only paid for work, like an UBER driver. Personally I have been working with two family members for two months trying to get them unemployment benefits, and I am an attorney in the state they are seeking help and have done this before this crisis. We can’t even communicate with the board. Food and rent matters, and people will protect family before society.
GFTNC, thanks. I love the conversation here, but I am not in favor of some of the more militant comments that I saw before I left for a while.
I don’t agree on peasants. Peasants can’t afford to not work to help neighbors. We have plenty of history on this point. A Hairdresser today is roughly a subsistence farmer who is only paid for work, like an UBER driver. Personally I have been working with two family members for two months trying to get them unemployment benefits, and I am an attorney in the state they are seeking help and have done this before this crisis. We can’t even communicate with the board. Food and rent matters, and people will protect family before society.
So Jrudkis is Michael, not Chidi.
So Jrudkis is Michael, not Chidi.
But who is Janet?
But who is Janet?
There are all sorts of reasons why a person might be coerced by circumstances to engage in risky behavior. And there are all different levels of knowledge that might make a person’s decision making process more or less ethical.
For example, is Missouri one of the oh-so-enlightened states that have decided that failing to go back to work when you employer reopens means immediate loss of unemployment? Was there a way for the hairdresser to get a covid-19 test? For that matter, does the hairdresser even have health insurance?
There are all sorts of reasons why a person might be coerced by circumstances to engage in risky behavior. And there are all different levels of knowledge that might make a person’s decision making process more or less ethical.
For example, is Missouri one of the oh-so-enlightened states that have decided that failing to go back to work when you employer reopens means immediate loss of unemployment? Was there a way for the hairdresser to get a covid-19 test? For that matter, does the hairdresser even have health insurance?
And with regard to the subsistence farming comment…
Some of my colleagues are graduate student instructors. They get no sick time. They have housing on campus only because they are enrolled as students, otherwise they would be forced to pay 75% of their salary on room and board living in the local rental economy. They take home less than $20k a year. Many of them have significant student loan debt. Some of them actually are Lyft drivers on the side in order to make ends meet.
Sub them for me in the above questions.
Is there any ethical difference for them between those scenarios I outlined above, or do their circumstances make all those scenarios equal?
And with regard to the subsistence farming comment…
Some of my colleagues are graduate student instructors. They get no sick time. They have housing on campus only because they are enrolled as students, otherwise they would be forced to pay 75% of their salary on room and board living in the local rental economy. They take home less than $20k a year. Many of them have significant student loan debt. Some of them actually are Lyft drivers on the side in order to make ends meet.
Sub them for me in the above questions.
Is there any ethical difference for them between those scenarios I outlined above, or do their circumstances make all those scenarios equal?
So Jrudkis is Michael, not Chidi
I have no idea what this means. I think it is unreasonable to expect poor people to risk their homes and children over a theoretical threat, without a clear lifeline.
So Jrudkis is Michael, not Chidi
I have no idea what this means. I think it is unreasonable to expect poor people to risk their homes and children over a theoretical threat, without a clear lifeline.
“So Jrudkis is Michael, not Chidi”
Reference to The Good Place. Explanations would involve significant spoilers.
“So Jrudkis is Michael, not Chidi”
Reference to The Good Place. Explanations would involve significant spoilers.
Nous, I am willing to bet your grad students on average have fewer children, and wealthier parents than the average hairdresser. So yes, I see a difference.
Nous, I am willing to bet your grad students on average have fewer children, and wealthier parents than the average hairdresser. So yes, I see a difference.
So the claim is don’t blame your neighbor for secretly exposing you to the virus that they suspect that they have but are scared to admit to because they fear their economic circumstances.
The “neighbor” here is someone who is assuming risk by coming to a shop to get a hairdo during a pandemic, when any number of people there could be asymptomatic carriers of a virus.
Why are we focused on the victims, rather than the cause?
Thanks. Yes.
The person went to the gym sick.
We know from the article that the person had “mild symptoms”. We also now know that the person was since tested, diagnosed, and there has been contact tracing. So maybe when the person realized the state of his/her health, the person got treatment and cooperated in letting authorities know what contacts had possibly been made.
Or maybe the hairdresser is a moral monster. Also possible that s/he’s just clueless, a cluelessness reinforced by the policies of Missouri allowing people to get their hair done and go to gyms.
I think it is unreasonable to expect poor people to risk their homes and children over a theoretical threat, without a clear lifeline.
If we were serious about stopping the pandemic, we’d close things up, and pay people to stay home rather than turning hairdressers into ethics case studies.
So the claim is don’t blame your neighbor for secretly exposing you to the virus that they suspect that they have but are scared to admit to because they fear their economic circumstances.
The “neighbor” here is someone who is assuming risk by coming to a shop to get a hairdo during a pandemic, when any number of people there could be asymptomatic carriers of a virus.
Why are we focused on the victims, rather than the cause?
Thanks. Yes.
The person went to the gym sick.
We know from the article that the person had “mild symptoms”. We also now know that the person was since tested, diagnosed, and there has been contact tracing. So maybe when the person realized the state of his/her health, the person got treatment and cooperated in letting authorities know what contacts had possibly been made.
Or maybe the hairdresser is a moral monster. Also possible that s/he’s just clueless, a cluelessness reinforced by the policies of Missouri allowing people to get their hair done and go to gyms.
I think it is unreasonable to expect poor people to risk their homes and children over a theoretical threat, without a clear lifeline.
If we were serious about stopping the pandemic, we’d close things up, and pay people to stay home rather than turning hairdressers into ethics case studies.
My next door neighbor in grad school came from rural poor roots and was a single mom with a kid in day care and $100K of loan debt.
If you are going to personify our hairdresser here, I see no reason why we can’t use my old neighbor in my thought experiment above.
My next door neighbor in grad school came from rural poor roots and was a single mom with a kid in day care and $100K of loan debt.
If you are going to personify our hairdresser here, I see no reason why we can’t use my old neighbor in my thought experiment above.
If all we had to worry about were poor people feeding their families, we’d be in a much better position, but people who aren’t poor are doing things that endanger all of us and that have nothing to do with feeding their families. Whatever. We have no unifying national leadership, so we’re about as f**ked as can be.
If all we had to worry about were poor people feeding their families, we’d be in a much better position, but people who aren’t poor are doing things that endanger all of us and that have nothing to do with feeding their families. Whatever. We have no unifying national leadership, so we’re about as f**ked as can be.
I think it is unreasonable to expect poor people to risk their homes and children over a theoretical threat, without a clear lifeline.
Well, in more enlightened places, rent freezes (not sure precisely what they are called) are in place, and there are efforts to feed people. If I point out that this is the inevitable result of the dismantling of the government (drown in a bathtub, right?) would you agree and start complaining about the Republicans as the problem?
I’m happy you are back, and don’t want to drive you out, but people expressing their annoyance with people who don’t seem to understand the situation is not ‘shaming’, it’s venting. When Russell or others dox her, we can return to this.
I think it is unreasonable to expect poor people to risk their homes and children over a theoretical threat, without a clear lifeline.
Well, in more enlightened places, rent freezes (not sure precisely what they are called) are in place, and there are efforts to feed people. If I point out that this is the inevitable result of the dismantling of the government (drown in a bathtub, right?) would you agree and start complaining about the Republicans as the problem?
I’m happy you are back, and don’t want to drive you out, but people expressing their annoyance with people who don’t seem to understand the situation is not ‘shaming’, it’s venting. When Russell or others dox her, we can return to this.
lj, I see that you would like me to leave, and I will do so.
lj, I see that you would like me to leave, and I will do so.
No, I’d like you to participate in a way that was conducive to productive discussion. If you can’t do that, then yes, I’d prefer you go.
No, I’d like you to participate in a way that was conducive to productive discussion. If you can’t do that, then yes, I’d prefer you go.
I’ve updated the graphs for US and UK 6-day average deaths to today. I didn’t update the comparison graph, but I’ve included a link to the OWID version up top.
I’ve updated the graphs for US and UK 6-day average deaths to today. I didn’t update the comparison graph, but I’ve included a link to the OWID version up top.
LJ, I have not been a republican since McCain nominated Palin. My comment about why I left was about Thullen. Yes, clearly this Current issue is about religious conservatives having the reins of power.
But this thread argument is about vilifying the poor for working, which I think is bad, rather than vilifying the cause, which is why do they have to work. And then since they do have to work, shouldn’t we learn from it, which is again, all Sapient was saying, as I understand it..
LJ, I have not been a republican since McCain nominated Palin. My comment about why I left was about Thullen. Yes, clearly this Current issue is about religious conservatives having the reins of power.
But this thread argument is about vilifying the poor for working, which I think is bad, rather than vilifying the cause, which is why do they have to work. And then since they do have to work, shouldn’t we learn from it, which is again, all Sapient was saying, as I understand it..
Nous,
I hope they get the support from your organization to provide for their families. I bet they have more resources than a barber shop.
Nous,
I hope they get the support from your organization to provide for their families. I bet they have more resources than a barber shop.
But this thread argument is about vilifying the poor for working…
Horsesh*t
But this thread argument is about vilifying the poor for working…
Horsesh*t
Hsh, really? That is what I am reading. Sapient is saying don’t blame the poor person for working sick, everyone else is saying working sick is evil. Sapient says the sick person has no option, and everyone else says ‘society.’. Show me.
Hsh, really? That is what I am reading. Sapient is saying don’t blame the poor person for working sick, everyone else is saying working sick is evil. Sapient says the sick person has no option, and everyone else says ‘society.’. Show me.
Who here has vilified the poor for working? I don’t think anyone here has said that people who feel forced to work because they are in tight circumstances are bad, or stupid, or anything other than desperate.
That’s not the same as saying that someone who is sick has no ethical obligations to those around them and should be treated as if they have no culpability in their moral decisions as a result.
Speaking of which, the War on Drugs might be a decent analogy here as well. Someone engaging in risky behavior during a pandemic due to economic pressure might be like someone who sells addictive drugs to their neighbors for the same reason. Not everyone who consumes those drugs will become addicted, but a significant number will, and many of those casual users will share their habit with others.
So the answer is “Don’t hate the player, hate the game?”
Who here has vilified the poor for working? I don’t think anyone here has said that people who feel forced to work because they are in tight circumstances are bad, or stupid, or anything other than desperate.
That’s not the same as saying that someone who is sick has no ethical obligations to those around them and should be treated as if they have no culpability in their moral decisions as a result.
Speaking of which, the War on Drugs might be a decent analogy here as well. Someone engaging in risky behavior during a pandemic due to economic pressure might be like someone who sells addictive drugs to their neighbors for the same reason. Not everyone who consumes those drugs will become addicted, but a significant number will, and many of those casual users will share their habit with others.
So the answer is “Don’t hate the player, hate the game?”
Working and working sick are two different things. Yes, I will blame someone for knowingly working sick in a workplace that requires close contact. That’s not the same as simply vilifying poor people for working. So horsesh*t.
Working and working sick are two different things. Yes, I will blame someone for knowingly working sick in a workplace that requires close contact. That’s not the same as simply vilifying poor people for working. So horsesh*t.
Did any of you read the Jungle? How am I on the left here?
Did any of you read the Jungle? How am I on the left here?
But this thread argument is about vilifying the poor for working…
Horsesh*t
Yes. Horseshit.
If the hairdresser in this case was unaware of being symptomatic, or was unaware that whatever symptoms her or she was experiencing possibly pointed to COVID, that’s one story.
Let’s assume the hairdresser was aware of being symptomatic, and was aware that the symptoms possibly pointed to COVID.
First, it doesn’t fucking matter whether that persons symptoms were mild or not. The fact that your particular case of COVID is mild has bugger-all to do with how that will play out for anyone else, should you infect them.
The hairdresser had to “feed his or her kids”. Fine, it’s not stated in the original article cited, but I’ll stipulate the kids.
Did any of the 91 people who were exposed to COVID by the hairdresser have kids? Were any of the 91 people exposed to COVID working? How many people were dependent on any of those folks’ wages?
How many people did those 91 people, in turn, expose to COVID? How many of those people have kids? How many of those people were wage earners, and how many other people depended on those folks’ wages for their daily bread?
If we stipulate that the hairdresser was aware of their own symptoms, and was aware that those symptoms possibly pointed to COVID, that hairdresser looked at the odds of making someone else ill and balanced that against their own need to make a living.
How many of the people that were exposed to COVID as a result had the luxury of doing the same calculus? How many of them knew they were having their hair cut by someone who was infectious?
If you want to make choices like that *for yourself* and for *your family*, fine. Good luck to you.
You do not get to make those choices for other people, or for other people’s families. You don’t.
Talking about this like it’s about “peasants” is idiotic. It’s not about peasants, it’s not about working people, it’s not about any of that shit.
It’s about the basic ethical choice of not putting other people at risk without their knowledge.
Want to go to work when you’re symptomatic for COVID? Put a fucking sign up that says “I have a fever and a cough, but I’m wearing a mask and I’m willing to cut your hair if you’re willing take the risk”.
Short of that, you’re making decisions *for other people* that involve *their health* and potentially the financial security of *their families*.
That isn’t your damned right.
If you’re sick, stay the hell home.
Want to have dinner someplace where the waiter is sneezing on your food? No? Why not? Aren’t these just the risks we all need to be willing to take?
We’re all free to take risks that *effect us* and – just possibly – our families. We *are not* free to impose risks of illness and potentially death on other people without their knowledge and consent.
We by god are not.
YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO EXPOSE OTHER PEOPLE TO POTENTIALLY FATAL ILLNESS WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE OR CONSENT.
No matter how hungry your kids are. No matter how unfair or tragic any of that is.
It’s not your god-damned right.
Want to argue the point? Seriously, WTF is wrong with you people.
But this thread argument is about vilifying the poor for working…
Horsesh*t
Yes. Horseshit.
If the hairdresser in this case was unaware of being symptomatic, or was unaware that whatever symptoms her or she was experiencing possibly pointed to COVID, that’s one story.
Let’s assume the hairdresser was aware of being symptomatic, and was aware that the symptoms possibly pointed to COVID.
First, it doesn’t fucking matter whether that persons symptoms were mild or not. The fact that your particular case of COVID is mild has bugger-all to do with how that will play out for anyone else, should you infect them.
The hairdresser had to “feed his or her kids”. Fine, it’s not stated in the original article cited, but I’ll stipulate the kids.
Did any of the 91 people who were exposed to COVID by the hairdresser have kids? Were any of the 91 people exposed to COVID working? How many people were dependent on any of those folks’ wages?
How many people did those 91 people, in turn, expose to COVID? How many of those people have kids? How many of those people were wage earners, and how many other people depended on those folks’ wages for their daily bread?
If we stipulate that the hairdresser was aware of their own symptoms, and was aware that those symptoms possibly pointed to COVID, that hairdresser looked at the odds of making someone else ill and balanced that against their own need to make a living.
How many of the people that were exposed to COVID as a result had the luxury of doing the same calculus? How many of them knew they were having their hair cut by someone who was infectious?
If you want to make choices like that *for yourself* and for *your family*, fine. Good luck to you.
You do not get to make those choices for other people, or for other people’s families. You don’t.
Talking about this like it’s about “peasants” is idiotic. It’s not about peasants, it’s not about working people, it’s not about any of that shit.
It’s about the basic ethical choice of not putting other people at risk without their knowledge.
Want to go to work when you’re symptomatic for COVID? Put a fucking sign up that says “I have a fever and a cough, but I’m wearing a mask and I’m willing to cut your hair if you’re willing take the risk”.
Short of that, you’re making decisions *for other people* that involve *their health* and potentially the financial security of *their families*.
That isn’t your damned right.
If you’re sick, stay the hell home.
Want to have dinner someplace where the waiter is sneezing on your food? No? Why not? Aren’t these just the risks we all need to be willing to take?
We’re all free to take risks that *effect us* and – just possibly – our families. We *are not* free to impose risks of illness and potentially death on other people without their knowledge and consent.
We by god are not.
YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO EXPOSE OTHER PEOPLE TO POTENTIALLY FATAL ILLNESS WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE OR CONSENT.
No matter how hungry your kids are. No matter how unfair or tragic any of that is.
It’s not your god-damned right.
Want to argue the point? Seriously, WTF is wrong with you people.
‘No matter how hungry your kids are.’’
I will argue that point. Bring it. What is your argument? Let your kids starve? Not what Russell says.
‘No matter how hungry your kids are.’’
I will argue that point. Bring it. What is your argument? Let your kids starve? Not what Russell says.
I’m all for paying people to stay home. That’s not much help, I know. Similarly, my blaming someone for knowingly exposing others isn’t going to hurt much.
I’m all for paying people to stay home. That’s not much help, I know. Similarly, my blaming someone for knowingly exposing others isn’t going to hurt much.
Not everyone who consumes those drugs will become addicted, but a significant number will, and many of those casual users will share their habit with others.
Rather than the War on Drugs, consider selling alcohol. Not everyone who takes a drink will become an alcoholic. Etc.
Not everyone who consumes those drugs will become addicted, but a significant number will, and many of those casual users will share their habit with others.
Rather than the War on Drugs, consider selling alcohol. Not everyone who takes a drink will become an alcoholic. Etc.
What is your argument
Do you have any freaking idea how many people I know whose livelihoods have been fucking cratered by this virus?
Probably half my friends are musicians, for a living. They have no work.
You find a way that doesn’t involve putting other people at risk.
What is your argument
Do you have any freaking idea how many people I know whose livelihoods have been fucking cratered by this virus?
Probably half my friends are musicians, for a living. They have no work.
You find a way that doesn’t involve putting other people at risk.
Even from a selfish standpoint, starting an outbreak in your place of business or among your customers isn’t a great plan for securing your income.
Even from a selfish standpoint, starting an outbreak in your place of business or among your customers isn’t a great plan for securing your income.
HSH, I am too, but none of that is happening. Much of America is work or die. I understand what we want, but I see what is. I am in Kentucky, which is probably at the mid point of good governance but poor population. At best, people are going through the motions.
HSH, I am too, but none of that is happening. Much of America is work or die. I understand what we want, but I see what is. I am in Kentucky, which is probably at the mid point of good governance but poor population. At best, people are going through the motions.
Russell, you said ‘ no matter how hungry your kids are.’ Bring it. Why should I care about musicians over my kids?
Russell, you said ‘ no matter how hungry your kids are.’ Bring it. Why should I care about musicians over my kids?
Even from a selfish standpoint, starting an outbreak in your place of business or among your customers isn’t a great plan for securing your income.
Yet that’s a great metaphor for Trump’s lifelong business strategy. And look how well that’s worked out for him financially. (Although I suppose there are relatively limited opportunities for money launderers for Russian mobsters.)
Even from a selfish standpoint, starting an outbreak in your place of business or among your customers isn’t a great plan for securing your income.
Yet that’s a great metaphor for Trump’s lifelong business strategy. And look how well that’s worked out for him financially. (Although I suppose there are relatively limited opportunities for money launderers for Russian mobsters.)
And then since they do have to work, shouldn’t we learn from it, which is again, all Sapient was saying, as I understand it.
You say “all sapient is saying” as if sapient is saying one thing, and a straightforward one at that.
As someone whose thoughts have been replaced with straw since the beginning of this argument, and straw based on sloppy reading comprehension and worst-case interpretation to boot, I would contend that “all sapient is saying” is so layered with subtext and innuendo (plus a few overt jabs, and some explicit accusations that other people are doing the things that she is actually, quotably doing herself) that you would have to have a PhD in ObWi-ology to pick up on a fraction of it.
*****
Plus: wrs at 10:09, and all day.
Also what hsh and nous and lj said. With apologies to anyone I missed.
Also, our imaginary hairdresser’s imaginary kids are not going to imaginarily starve. She went to the Dairy Queen.
And then since they do have to work, shouldn’t we learn from it, which is again, all Sapient was saying, as I understand it.
You say “all sapient is saying” as if sapient is saying one thing, and a straightforward one at that.
As someone whose thoughts have been replaced with straw since the beginning of this argument, and straw based on sloppy reading comprehension and worst-case interpretation to boot, I would contend that “all sapient is saying” is so layered with subtext and innuendo (plus a few overt jabs, and some explicit accusations that other people are doing the things that she is actually, quotably doing herself) that you would have to have a PhD in ObWi-ology to pick up on a fraction of it.
*****
Plus: wrs at 10:09, and all day.
Also what hsh and nous and lj said. With apologies to anyone I missed.
Also, our imaginary hairdresser’s imaginary kids are not going to imaginarily starve. She went to the Dairy Queen.
JanieM, no idea what that meant, but it seemed like it was about me. Is that correct?
JanieM, no idea what that meant, but it seemed like it was about me. Is that correct?
Much of America is work or die.
Ain’t that the truth.
I’d say a lot of this country is effectively the third world, except in the real third world, there are usually ways to get by with no money.
Not sure that’s true here.
Root hog or die. The American motto.
Much of America is work or die.
Ain’t that the truth.
I’d say a lot of this country is effectively the third world, except in the real third world, there are usually ways to get by with no money.
Not sure that’s true here.
Root hog or die. The American motto.
JanieM, no idea what that meant, but it seemed like it was about me. Is that correct?
It was triggered by something you wrote, which is why I quoted something you wrote. Insofar as it was “about” someone as distinct from being a response to someone, no, it wasn’t about you, it was about sapient, or more accurately sapient’s contribution to this thread.
JanieM, no idea what that meant, but it seemed like it was about me. Is that correct?
It was triggered by something you wrote, which is why I quoted something you wrote. Insofar as it was “about” someone as distinct from being a response to someone, no, it wasn’t about you, it was about sapient, or more accurately sapient’s contribution to this thread.
Russell, so presumably you agree people will protect children and family over society. Which is the point here.
Russell, so presumably you agree people will protect children and family over society. Which is the point here.
Ah, apologies for an ambiguity. The “you” in my 10:36 who would need a PhD in ObWi-ology (an obscure branch of knowledge etc. etc.) was meant to be the general you, not the Jrudkis you.
Ah, apologies for an ambiguity. The “you” in my 10:36 who would need a PhD in ObWi-ology (an obscure branch of knowledge etc. etc.) was meant to be the general you, not the Jrudkis you.
What people will do and what people should do are separate topics.
What people will do and what people should do are separate topics.
Root hog or die. The American motto.
License required to root. Including signing a waiver of all rights to do anything to the licensors.
Root hog or die. The American motto.
License required to root. Including signing a waiver of all rights to do anything to the licensors.
Russell, so presumably you agree people will protect children and family over society. Which is the point here.
It may be your point, but really, it’s way more complicated than that.
And “society,” as russell has already pointed out, is actually not some blurry abstraction. It’s actually other people with children and families. Who quite possibly have a right to object to being used so cavalierly, whether by “society” or their neighbor or hairdresser.
Russell, so presumably you agree people will protect children and family over society. Which is the point here.
It may be your point, but really, it’s way more complicated than that.
And “society,” as russell has already pointed out, is actually not some blurry abstraction. It’s actually other people with children and families. Who quite possibly have a right to object to being used so cavalierly, whether by “society” or their neighbor or hairdresser.
Is it okay for someone to pull a knife or a gun on me and demand my children’s food, because their children are starving?
You may say it’s okay. If it is, then it’s okay for me to whack them right back.
Is it okay for someone to pull a knife or a gun on me and demand my children’s food, because their children are starving?
You may say it’s okay. If it is, then it’s okay for me to whack them right back.
Well, yes. I have the opportunity to have a pay check, that provides my family a safe pandemic. I am thankful for that, but we could easily be in a very different position. If this happened last year, this would have mattered a lot more. Russell seems to care about musicians. I care about children and parents. Russell has not answered.
Well, yes. I have the opportunity to have a pay check, that provides my family a safe pandemic. I am thankful for that, but we could easily be in a very different position. If this happened last year, this would have mattered a lot more. Russell seems to care about musicians. I care about children and parents. Russell has not answered.
No, JanieM, taking your food is generally wrong. But I suppose it depends on how you got it.
No, JanieM, taking your food is generally wrong. But I suppose it depends on how you got it.
presumably you agree people will protect children and family over society.
We’re not talking about “society”, we’re talking about somebody who wants a haircut.
Which is the point here
No, that’s *your* point here. Doesn’t mean I have to play. I’m not your freaking monkey.
*My* point here is that nobody has the right to put other people at risk without their knowledge and consent.
presumably you agree people will protect children and family over society.
We’re not talking about “society”, we’re talking about somebody who wants a haircut.
Which is the point here
No, that’s *your* point here. Doesn’t mean I have to play. I’m not your freaking monkey.
*My* point here is that nobody has the right to put other people at risk without their knowledge and consent.
But I suppose it depends on how you got it.
Like by making other people sick?
*****
And once again, wrs @11:11, the second half of which is the bookend for my 10:36.
But I suppose it depends on how you got it.
Like by making other people sick?
*****
And once again, wrs @11:11, the second half of which is the bookend for my 10:36.
Ok. Sorry for intruding.
Ok. Sorry for intruding.
Like by risking making other people sick….thereby putting their children’s food at risk?
Like by risking making other people sick….thereby putting their children’s food at risk?
Russell seems to care about musicians. I care about children and parents.
Here’s a shocker for you – *musicians have kids*.
I’m stepping away from this before I start getting actually rude.
You don’t get to put other people at risk without their knowledge and consent. If you disagree, fine, just stay far far away from me.
I will not be patronizing your barbershop, I can sure as hell tell you that.
Russell seems to care about musicians. I care about children and parents.
Here’s a shocker for you – *musicians have kids*.
I’m stepping away from this before I start getting actually rude.
You don’t get to put other people at risk without their knowledge and consent. If you disagree, fine, just stay far far away from me.
I will not be patronizing your barbershop, I can sure as hell tell you that.
It may be notable that nobody is talking about the folks who put their families at risk because they felt that they just had to have their hair done. Or is there some life-essential aspect to getting professional hair care that I’m just ignorant of?
It may be notable that nobody is talking about the folks who put their families at risk because they felt that they just had to have their hair done. Or is there some life-essential aspect to getting professional hair care that I’m just ignorant of?
I apologize for showing up. It won’t happen again.
I apologize for showing up. It won’t happen again.
No, it’s not showing up, it’s showing up with a bad argument. You really want to be right. I think that everyone would say we have to consider things, but at the end of the day, after weighing those things, people fall where the fall. You fall on the ‘don’t be vilifying the poor for working’. Other people has said that they think this is a poor statement of what they are saying, yet you double down on that.
I’m really glad that you have given up on the Republicans because of Palin (I can’t find it, but there was an interesting article about how she was the harbinger of a lot of what has happened) but I do recall (and correct me if I’m wrong) you were part of the lock her up brigade, a membership which has only grown more ironic as time has passed. If I am remembering correctly, maybe consider that if Hilary were president, this wouldn’t be such a shitshow and we wouldn’t be placed in a position where you think we are vilifying the poor.
No, it’s not showing up, it’s showing up with a bad argument. You really want to be right. I think that everyone would say we have to consider things, but at the end of the day, after weighing those things, people fall where the fall. You fall on the ‘don’t be vilifying the poor for working’. Other people has said that they think this is a poor statement of what they are saying, yet you double down on that.
I’m really glad that you have given up on the Republicans because of Palin (I can’t find it, but there was an interesting article about how she was the harbinger of a lot of what has happened) but I do recall (and correct me if I’m wrong) you were part of the lock her up brigade, a membership which has only grown more ironic as time has passed. If I am remembering correctly, maybe consider that if Hilary were president, this wouldn’t be such a shitshow and we wouldn’t be placed in a position where you think we are vilifying the poor.
No, I voted for Obama over Romney. I voted for Hilary. So no, your memory is wrong. But I am done.
No, I voted for Obama over Romney. I voted for Hilary. So no, your memory is wrong. But I am done.
LJ: whatever memory you have that supports your indictment of me over the last 15 years, I don’t think you have it. Produce it or apologize.
LJ: whatever memory you have that supports your indictment of me over the last 15 years, I don’t think you have it. Produce it or apologize.
LJ – I think the Palin as a harbinger comments came from Steve Schmidt, who was, after all, one of the parties responsible for handing her a megaphone in the first place.
As far as family over society goes, I think sometimes that in order to help one’s family, one has to support the collective good. What little security and privilege I have, I have because I am part of a union.
I don’t think anyone here disagrees for a minute that it’s wrong that those living paycheck to paycheck have to bear the brunt of the financial hardship brought on by this virus, or that those who are desperate to restart their businesses are monsters for wanting to do so. They are not monsters, they are hostages. I feel sorry for them.
But that does not relieve a single one of them from their moral or ethical obligations to their fellow sufferers. And I can both pity and fault them, all while being willing to give up some of my own privilege in order to relieve some of their financial pressures.
Here’s something that Tom Lutz, editor of the LA Review of Books posted on FB:
In other culture news, The Atlantic laid off 68 people, and the LA Times made everyone take a 20% pay cut, which will save the paper $2 million in a year.
Patrick Soon-Shiong, who owns the LA Times, has a net worth of $7 billion, so one year’s 5% return on his wealth would cover that $2 million savings for 175 years. Or he could just cover for this year and have a net worth of $7,348,000,000, instead of $7,350,000,000.
Laurene Jobs owns The Atlantic. Her net worth is $23 billion; 5% return on that in one year would pay those 68 fired staffers $100,000 a year each for 169 years. Or she could just pay for this year, and not kick 68 human beings to the curb to face the worst unemployment in 70 years. If she did that, at the end of the year, instead of $24,150,000,000, she would only have $24,143,200,000. That difference is surely worth ruining the lives of 68 people for.
Her Apple stock alone went from $7 billion to $12 billion over the last 12 months. That appreciation could pay the fired 68 staffers $100,000 a year each for 735 years. and she still would be one of the 40 richest people in the world.
We can, I think, agree that this is more monstrous and callous than our hairdresser, but I don’t know that this is any comfort at all to the hairdresser’s neighbors and clients.
LJ – I think the Palin as a harbinger comments came from Steve Schmidt, who was, after all, one of the parties responsible for handing her a megaphone in the first place.
As far as family over society goes, I think sometimes that in order to help one’s family, one has to support the collective good. What little security and privilege I have, I have because I am part of a union.
I don’t think anyone here disagrees for a minute that it’s wrong that those living paycheck to paycheck have to bear the brunt of the financial hardship brought on by this virus, or that those who are desperate to restart their businesses are monsters for wanting to do so. They are not monsters, they are hostages. I feel sorry for them.
But that does not relieve a single one of them from their moral or ethical obligations to their fellow sufferers. And I can both pity and fault them, all while being willing to give up some of my own privilege in order to relieve some of their financial pressures.
Here’s something that Tom Lutz, editor of the LA Review of Books posted on FB:
In other culture news, The Atlantic laid off 68 people, and the LA Times made everyone take a 20% pay cut, which will save the paper $2 million in a year.
Patrick Soon-Shiong, who owns the LA Times, has a net worth of $7 billion, so one year’s 5% return on his wealth would cover that $2 million savings for 175 years. Or he could just cover for this year and have a net worth of $7,348,000,000, instead of $7,350,000,000.
Laurene Jobs owns The Atlantic. Her net worth is $23 billion; 5% return on that in one year would pay those 68 fired staffers $100,000 a year each for 169 years. Or she could just pay for this year, and not kick 68 human beings to the curb to face the worst unemployment in 70 years. If she did that, at the end of the year, instead of $24,150,000,000, she would only have $24,143,200,000. That difference is surely worth ruining the lives of 68 people for.
Her Apple stock alone went from $7 billion to $12 billion over the last 12 months. That appreciation could pay the fired 68 staffers $100,000 a year each for 735 years. and she still would be one of the 40 richest people in the world.
We can, I think, agree that this is more monstrous and callous than our hairdresser, but I don’t know that this is any comfort at all to the hairdresser’s neighbors and clients.
whatever memory you have that supports your indictment of me over the last 15 years, I don’t think you have it. Produce it or apologize.
I’m happy to apologize, but I thought that is what it means when I say ‘correct me if I am wrong’.
I get that tensions are high, and people are at each other’s throats. But when you enter accusing people of things that they specifically disagree in the same thread that they are actually saying, it is up to you to explain why rather than simply stating it over and over, no matter how strongly you may feel they are wrong.
I’ve got my own ideas as to why sapient picked this hill to charge, but I have no idea why you are so upset that some people are upset about the possiblity of being infected by someone who ignores stated guidelines to stay home.
at any rate, I apologize, so you can leave, Or stay, your choice.
whatever memory you have that supports your indictment of me over the last 15 years, I don’t think you have it. Produce it or apologize.
I’m happy to apologize, but I thought that is what it means when I say ‘correct me if I am wrong’.
I get that tensions are high, and people are at each other’s throats. But when you enter accusing people of things that they specifically disagree in the same thread that they are actually saying, it is up to you to explain why rather than simply stating it over and over, no matter how strongly you may feel they are wrong.
I’ve got my own ideas as to why sapient picked this hill to charge, but I have no idea why you are so upset that some people are upset about the possiblity of being infected by someone who ignores stated guidelines to stay home.
at any rate, I apologize, so you can leave, Or stay, your choice.
nous, you might not appreciate the pressure those media moguls are under. They have to keep up.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonathanponciano/2020/05/22/billionaires-zuckerberg-bezos/
nous, you might not appreciate the pressure those media moguls are under. They have to keep up.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonathanponciano/2020/05/22/billionaires-zuckerberg-bezos/
I am upset that poor people who by all reports did their jobs by the rules given are held as perpetrators on this overall thread. I don’t understand it. Many people have tenuous homes in America.
‘I get that tensions are high, and people are at each other’s throats. But when you enter accusing people of things that they specifically disagree in the same thread that they are actually saying, it is up to you to explain why rather than simply stating it over and over, no matter how strongly you may feel they are wrong.‘.
No idea what this is about. So far as I can tell, I entered on the the side of workers.
I think you are not arguing with the correct person.
I am upset that poor people who by all reports did their jobs by the rules given are held as perpetrators on this overall thread. I don’t understand it. Many people have tenuous homes in America.
‘I get that tensions are high, and people are at each other’s throats. But when you enter accusing people of things that they specifically disagree in the same thread that they are actually saying, it is up to you to explain why rather than simply stating it over and over, no matter how strongly you may feel they are wrong.‘.
No idea what this is about. So far as I can tell, I entered on the the side of workers.
I think you are not arguing with the correct person.
LJ : ‘correct me if I am wrong’ means defend yourself. Do you disagree?
LJ : ‘correct me if I am wrong’ means defend yourself. Do you disagree?
Going to work with COVID-19 symptoms for 8 days in close contact with coworkers and customers isn’t within any set of rules I’m familiar with.
Going to work with COVID-19 symptoms for 8 days in close contact with coworkers and customers isn’t within any set of rules I’m familiar with.
Hsh, your kids have food.
Hsh, your kids have food.
LJ : ‘correct me if I am wrong’ means defend yourself. Do you disagree?
I thought it meant you saying ‘no I think you are mistaken, my position is xxx’. I suppose that does mean ‘defend yourself’, but taken to an extreme might explain why you are being so belligerent.
No idea what this is about.
jrudkis:
this thread argument is about vilifying the poor for working
hsh
Horsesh*t
jrudkis
Hsh, really? That is what I am reading. Sapient is saying don’t blame the poor person for working sick, everyone else is saying working sick is evil. Sapient says the sick person has no option, and everyone else says ‘society.’. Show me.
Again, I don’t know why you are acting like such a dick, and why you are doing the prissy primadonna thing about ‘oh I’ll leave, but one more thing…’ I’m assuming you are under stress. But I’m not sure why we should let you off because your circumstances have you come here and argue like a dick.
So far as I can tell, I entered on the the side of workers.
So did Lenin. So leave already, I’m sure that the great proletariat is calling for you.
LJ : ‘correct me if I am wrong’ means defend yourself. Do you disagree?
I thought it meant you saying ‘no I think you are mistaken, my position is xxx’. I suppose that does mean ‘defend yourself’, but taken to an extreme might explain why you are being so belligerent.
No idea what this is about.
jrudkis:
this thread argument is about vilifying the poor for working
hsh
Horsesh*t
jrudkis
Hsh, really? That is what I am reading. Sapient is saying don’t blame the poor person for working sick, everyone else is saying working sick is evil. Sapient says the sick person has no option, and everyone else says ‘society.’. Show me.
Again, I don’t know why you are acting like such a dick, and why you are doing the prissy primadonna thing about ‘oh I’ll leave, but one more thing…’ I’m assuming you are under stress. But I’m not sure why we should let you off because your circumstances have you come here and argue like a dick.
So far as I can tell, I entered on the the side of workers.
So did Lenin. So leave already, I’m sure that the great proletariat is calling for you.
FWIW:
People who have nice white-collar salaried jobs that allow them to work from home are, in general, doing OK in spite of the pandemic.
People who have jobs that require them to physically be some place, less so. Especially if they have to travel on mass transportation.
People who have jobs in industries that have been shut down quite often no longer have those jobs.
Everyone understands that. Nobody here is hating on working people.
Ideally, there would be a strong public response to all of this, such that people whose jobs were ended by public policy fiat, would have sufficient public relief. That’s available, but not consistently, and not in sufficient amount, and not without massive bureaucratic inconvenience and delay.
Again, everyone understands that.
There isn’t anyone here who doesn’t understand why somebody might choose to risk their own health and / or the health of other people, if the alternative was not having food or losing their home.
I have no idea if the hairdresser in cleek’s link was in that position or not. I have no idea if the hairdresser in cleek’s link even has kids, or a mortgage or monthly rent to pay. That doesn’t matter, because there are a lot of people who fit that profile, even if the MO hairdresser does not.
I jumped into this to take exception to sapient’s suggestion that we use the example of the MO hairdresser as a sort of in vivo experiment to see if wearing masks was a sufficient prophylactic for people who actually have COVID to work in close-proximity, hands-on jobs.
That’s just a bad idea. Those folks’ health should be monitored for its own sake, but if none of them get sick that does not demonstrate that it’s safe for anyone who has COVID to go to work in professions that require direct contact with other people. It may just as well demonstrate that those folks were lucky.
I also take exception to the whole “family vs society” thing that jrudkis is bringing.
The way that people are going to get through this is by helping each other out. Food, money, whatever. Directly supporting people who are ill or need to isolate, so that they actually can isolate. Shopping and running errands for people who are vulnerable, so that they can stay home. If you are fortunate enough to still be working, spend whatever you can afford to spend so that struggling businesses can continue.
All of that is the opposite of “family vs society”. It’s not anti-family, it’s recognizing that “society” is a community of people like yourself, with similar if not identical needs, assets, pressures, responsibilities. It’s seeing other people as something other than your enemy or rival.
That is what makes communities resilient. That is what makes it possible for people to get through difficult times without irreparable damage.
“Family vs society” doesn’t offer that.
It may be that that particular dynamic is not available to all people, in all places. If that’s a chosen thing – if people are just averse to asking for or offering help to other people – maybe they need to make a different choice. If that’s part of some kind of ethic of self-reliance or whatever, maybe folks need to challenge that.
In any case, I submit that it’s a better way to make sure your kids get fed than putting 91 other people at risk of what can be a pretty horrible disease.
FWIW:
People who have nice white-collar salaried jobs that allow them to work from home are, in general, doing OK in spite of the pandemic.
People who have jobs that require them to physically be some place, less so. Especially if they have to travel on mass transportation.
People who have jobs in industries that have been shut down quite often no longer have those jobs.
Everyone understands that. Nobody here is hating on working people.
Ideally, there would be a strong public response to all of this, such that people whose jobs were ended by public policy fiat, would have sufficient public relief. That’s available, but not consistently, and not in sufficient amount, and not without massive bureaucratic inconvenience and delay.
Again, everyone understands that.
There isn’t anyone here who doesn’t understand why somebody might choose to risk their own health and / or the health of other people, if the alternative was not having food or losing their home.
I have no idea if the hairdresser in cleek’s link was in that position or not. I have no idea if the hairdresser in cleek’s link even has kids, or a mortgage or monthly rent to pay. That doesn’t matter, because there are a lot of people who fit that profile, even if the MO hairdresser does not.
I jumped into this to take exception to sapient’s suggestion that we use the example of the MO hairdresser as a sort of in vivo experiment to see if wearing masks was a sufficient prophylactic for people who actually have COVID to work in close-proximity, hands-on jobs.
That’s just a bad idea. Those folks’ health should be monitored for its own sake, but if none of them get sick that does not demonstrate that it’s safe for anyone who has COVID to go to work in professions that require direct contact with other people. It may just as well demonstrate that those folks were lucky.
I also take exception to the whole “family vs society” thing that jrudkis is bringing.
The way that people are going to get through this is by helping each other out. Food, money, whatever. Directly supporting people who are ill or need to isolate, so that they actually can isolate. Shopping and running errands for people who are vulnerable, so that they can stay home. If you are fortunate enough to still be working, spend whatever you can afford to spend so that struggling businesses can continue.
All of that is the opposite of “family vs society”. It’s not anti-family, it’s recognizing that “society” is a community of people like yourself, with similar if not identical needs, assets, pressures, responsibilities. It’s seeing other people as something other than your enemy or rival.
That is what makes communities resilient. That is what makes it possible for people to get through difficult times without irreparable damage.
“Family vs society” doesn’t offer that.
It may be that that particular dynamic is not available to all people, in all places. If that’s a chosen thing – if people are just averse to asking for or offering help to other people – maybe they need to make a different choice. If that’s part of some kind of ethic of self-reliance or whatever, maybe folks need to challenge that.
In any case, I submit that it’s a better way to make sure your kids get fed than putting 91 other people at risk of what can be a pretty horrible disease.
Whoah. Waking up to big events. FWIW, I do think tons of what happened last night (but not all, obvs) boils down to misunderstandings.
jrudkis thought lj was addressing him when lj was addressing sapient. jrudkis thought russell cared more about musicians than people’s kids. jrudkis said about the actual hairdresser we have been considering for argument’s sake “I am upset that poor people who by all reports did their jobs by the rules given are held as perpetrators on this overall thread.” when as I understand it the hairdresser disobeyed the rules, and moreover went to the gym (I don’t know what Dairy Queen is), thus presumably disposing of the possibility that he/she had to expose the public solely to feed his/her kids, or save his/her house.
There may have been other misunderstandings too, I’m not going back to check. I only have an MA in ObWi-ology, but I think a lot of this happened because jrudkis hasn’t been around much, for understandable reasons, so hasn’t seen the currents of discussion here for a while. Suffice it to say, if jrudkis is still around (which I hope he is), accusing folks here of being against the working-hand-to-mouth-poor (whtmp) could not be further from the truth. Also, in all fairness, categorising the issue as whtmp versus “society” leads you up the wrong garden path from what you lot call the get-go: it is not “society” we are talking about shielding from possible fatal infection, it is other people, and their kids.
Whoah. Waking up to big events. FWIW, I do think tons of what happened last night (but not all, obvs) boils down to misunderstandings.
jrudkis thought lj was addressing him when lj was addressing sapient. jrudkis thought russell cared more about musicians than people’s kids. jrudkis said about the actual hairdresser we have been considering for argument’s sake “I am upset that poor people who by all reports did their jobs by the rules given are held as perpetrators on this overall thread.” when as I understand it the hairdresser disobeyed the rules, and moreover went to the gym (I don’t know what Dairy Queen is), thus presumably disposing of the possibility that he/she had to expose the public solely to feed his/her kids, or save his/her house.
There may have been other misunderstandings too, I’m not going back to check. I only have an MA in ObWi-ology, but I think a lot of this happened because jrudkis hasn’t been around much, for understandable reasons, so hasn’t seen the currents of discussion here for a while. Suffice it to say, if jrudkis is still around (which I hope he is), accusing folks here of being against the working-hand-to-mouth-poor (whtmp) could not be further from the truth. Also, in all fairness, categorising the issue as whtmp versus “society” leads you up the wrong garden path from what you lot call the get-go: it is not “society” we are talking about shielding from possible fatal infection, it is other people, and their kids.
Hsh, your kids have food.
Which has zilch to do with the rules you brought up and is nothing but ad hominem. When you’re shown to wrong on a particular point, change the subject and attack personally.
Hsh, your kids have food.
Which has zilch to do with the rules you brought up and is nothing but ad hominem. When you’re shown to wrong on a particular point, change the subject and attack personally.
it is not “society” we are talking about shielding from possible fatal infection, it is other people, and their kids.
And there’s already the second hairdresser whom, in all likelihood, the first hairdresser infected. There’s also the salon that is now closed as a result. So the people who might not be able to feed their kids multiply. If I were to argue in another style, I would ask why certain people don’t care about those poor people.
it is not “society” we are talking about shielding from possible fatal infection, it is other people, and their kids.
And there’s already the second hairdresser whom, in all likelihood, the first hairdresser infected. There’s also the salon that is now closed as a result. So the people who might not be able to feed their kids multiply. If I were to argue in another style, I would ask why certain people don’t care about those poor people.
1.
Jrudkis, you showed up after a long absence and joined a fight that was already in progress, seemingly without reading the whole thread (or at least not understanding it); telling people (repeatedly) what they were arguing about, as if they/we were too dim-witted to figure that out without your help; explaining sapient, as if the rest of us weren’t already perfectly familiar with sapient and her methods; taking sapient’s word for it that other people were “vilifying” poor people; and crapping all over said people for said “vilifying.”
Please give an example of where poor people were vilified or held as perps by anyone on this thread. Don’t bother if all you’ve got is people pointing out the guidelines that say, “If you’re sick, stay home.” That is not vilifying anyone, much less calling them perpetrators. (You, by the way, were the one who introduced the inflammatory word “perpetrators” into the discussion.)
2.
Jrudkis: “I am upset that poor people who by all reports did their jobs by the rules given are held as perpetrators on this overall thread. I don’t understand it. Many people have tenuous homes in America.”
In response, hsh wrote: “Going to work with COVID-19 symptoms for 8 days in close contact with coworkers and customers isn’t within any set of rules I’m familiar with.”
To which you responded: “Hsh, your kids have food.”
This is textbook goalpost moving and textbook ad hominem.
Goalpost moving: First it’s “you people are being mean to people who followed the rules,” and when it’s pointed out that they didn’t actually follow the rules, it’s “the rules are irrelevant.”
Ad hominem: And it’s not just “the rules are irrelevant if their kids are hungry,” it’s “the rules are irrelevant …. because your kids have food,” i.e. this isn’t really about whether the imaginary hairdresser’s imaginary kids have food, it’s about how nasty and selfish hsh is. (The chance to make this point repeatedly (e.g., “Easy for you to say”) is really what this whole discussion was for, but I fear that’s too subtle a point; see below.)
3.
Your language has been combative, sanctimonious, and accusatory, and yet you have also written:
“I have no idea what this means.”
“JanieM, no idea what that meant”
“No idea what this is about.”
Again and again, by your own admission, you don’t understand what people are saying, and yet you’re perfectly happy to suggest that they’re selfish “vilifiers” for saying it, and to metaphorically challenge people to put their dukes up and fight you about it. (“Bring it.”)
4.
Jrudkis: “All sapient is saying (I believe) is the blame is not on those trying to survive, but on the system that made it so.”
My comment at 5:20 on Saturday, which seems to have been one of the triggers for this whole adventure, said that exact same thing, although admittedly the point was embedded in a lot of snark and frustration (“venting,” as more than one person has already pointed out) that would have been perfectly familiar to any regular here, including sapient, who twisted it to make a pile of straw to start a fire with. You then came along with a can of gasoline, in case the fire wasn’t going good enough yet.
Jrudkis: “So far as I can tell, that is the entirety of Sapient’s point.”
You can’t tell very far. I tried to explain that last night, but you explicitly said you didn’t understand my comment.
You didn’t have a clue what you stepped into, but that hasn’t stopped you from telling people of what they’re arguing about and what side they’re taking (in the face of their own denial), making demands, moving goalposts, and making snotty, sanctimonious accusations — “your children have food”; “Russell seems to care about musicians. I care about children and parents.”
That last one is so illogical I wouldn’t have known where to start. Fortunately, russell cut through the crap:
“Here’s a shocker for you – *musicians have kids*.”
5.
I did vilify someone in my Saturday 5:20 comment, but not “poor people” or “hairdressers” in general or people with starving children, but rather: “those ‘my liberty entails the right to infect other people’ people.”
Otherwise, to sum up and strip the comment of snark, I vilified our culture, which is based on greed, and said that sick people should stay home.
I stand by both points.
1.
Jrudkis, you showed up after a long absence and joined a fight that was already in progress, seemingly without reading the whole thread (or at least not understanding it); telling people (repeatedly) what they were arguing about, as if they/we were too dim-witted to figure that out without your help; explaining sapient, as if the rest of us weren’t already perfectly familiar with sapient and her methods; taking sapient’s word for it that other people were “vilifying” poor people; and crapping all over said people for said “vilifying.”
Please give an example of where poor people were vilified or held as perps by anyone on this thread. Don’t bother if all you’ve got is people pointing out the guidelines that say, “If you’re sick, stay home.” That is not vilifying anyone, much less calling them perpetrators. (You, by the way, were the one who introduced the inflammatory word “perpetrators” into the discussion.)
2.
Jrudkis: “I am upset that poor people who by all reports did their jobs by the rules given are held as perpetrators on this overall thread. I don’t understand it. Many people have tenuous homes in America.”
In response, hsh wrote: “Going to work with COVID-19 symptoms for 8 days in close contact with coworkers and customers isn’t within any set of rules I’m familiar with.”
To which you responded: “Hsh, your kids have food.”
This is textbook goalpost moving and textbook ad hominem.
Goalpost moving: First it’s “you people are being mean to people who followed the rules,” and when it’s pointed out that they didn’t actually follow the rules, it’s “the rules are irrelevant.”
Ad hominem: And it’s not just “the rules are irrelevant if their kids are hungry,” it’s “the rules are irrelevant …. because your kids have food,” i.e. this isn’t really about whether the imaginary hairdresser’s imaginary kids have food, it’s about how nasty and selfish hsh is. (The chance to make this point repeatedly (e.g., “Easy for you to say”) is really what this whole discussion was for, but I fear that’s too subtle a point; see below.)
3.
Your language has been combative, sanctimonious, and accusatory, and yet you have also written:
“I have no idea what this means.”
“JanieM, no idea what that meant”
“No idea what this is about.”
Again and again, by your own admission, you don’t understand what people are saying, and yet you’re perfectly happy to suggest that they’re selfish “vilifiers” for saying it, and to metaphorically challenge people to put their dukes up and fight you about it. (“Bring it.”)
4.
Jrudkis: “All sapient is saying (I believe) is the blame is not on those trying to survive, but on the system that made it so.”
My comment at 5:20 on Saturday, which seems to have been one of the triggers for this whole adventure, said that exact same thing, although admittedly the point was embedded in a lot of snark and frustration (“venting,” as more than one person has already pointed out) that would have been perfectly familiar to any regular here, including sapient, who twisted it to make a pile of straw to start a fire with. You then came along with a can of gasoline, in case the fire wasn’t going good enough yet.
Jrudkis: “So far as I can tell, that is the entirety of Sapient’s point.”
You can’t tell very far. I tried to explain that last night, but you explicitly said you didn’t understand my comment.
You didn’t have a clue what you stepped into, but that hasn’t stopped you from telling people of what they’re arguing about and what side they’re taking (in the face of their own denial), making demands, moving goalposts, and making snotty, sanctimonious accusations — “your children have food”; “Russell seems to care about musicians. I care about children and parents.”
That last one is so illogical I wouldn’t have known where to start. Fortunately, russell cut through the crap:
“Here’s a shocker for you – *musicians have kids*.”
5.
I did vilify someone in my Saturday 5:20 comment, but not “poor people” or “hairdressers” in general or people with starving children, but rather: “those ‘my liberty entails the right to infect other people’ people.”
Otherwise, to sum up and strip the comment of snark, I vilified our culture, which is based on greed, and said that sick people should stay home.
I stand by both points.
I want to repeat the quotation in nous’s 1:03 am comment:
In other culture news, The Atlantic laid off 68 people, and the LA Times made everyone take a 20% pay cut, which will save the paper $2 million in a year.
Patrick Soon-Shiong, who owns the LA Times, has a net worth of $7 billion, so one year’s 5% return on his wealth would cover that $2 million savings for 175 years. Or he could just cover for this year and have a net worth of $7,348,000,000, instead of $7,350,000,000.
Laurene Jobs owns The Atlantic. Her net worth is $23 billion; 5% return on that in one year would pay those 68 fired staffers $100,000 a year each for 169 years. Or she could just pay for this year, and not kick 68 human beings to the curb to face the worst unemployment in 70 years. If she did that, at the end of the year, instead of $24,150,000,000, she would only have $24,143,200,000. That difference is surely worth ruining the lives of 68 people for.
Her Apple stock alone went from $7 billion to $12 billion over the last 12 months. That appreciation could pay the fired 68 staffers $100,000 a year each for 735 years. and she still would be one of the 40 richest people in the world.
Nothing we do is going to make an appreciable difference as long as these numbers hold true.
I want to repeat the quotation in nous’s 1:03 am comment:
In other culture news, The Atlantic laid off 68 people, and the LA Times made everyone take a 20% pay cut, which will save the paper $2 million in a year.
Patrick Soon-Shiong, who owns the LA Times, has a net worth of $7 billion, so one year’s 5% return on his wealth would cover that $2 million savings for 175 years. Or he could just cover for this year and have a net worth of $7,348,000,000, instead of $7,350,000,000.
Laurene Jobs owns The Atlantic. Her net worth is $23 billion; 5% return on that in one year would pay those 68 fired staffers $100,000 a year each for 169 years. Or she could just pay for this year, and not kick 68 human beings to the curb to face the worst unemployment in 70 years. If she did that, at the end of the year, instead of $24,150,000,000, she would only have $24,143,200,000. That difference is surely worth ruining the lives of 68 people for.
Her Apple stock alone went from $7 billion to $12 billion over the last 12 months. That appreciation could pay the fired 68 staffers $100,000 a year each for 735 years. and she still would be one of the 40 richest people in the world.
Nothing we do is going to make an appreciable difference as long as these numbers hold true.
I don’t know what Dairy Queen is
A transvestite milkman…
I don’t know what Dairy Queen is
A transvestite milkman…
As far as experiments in the transmissibility of the novel coronavirus go, there are crowded venues all over the country as reported in numerous articles. We’ll see where this leaves us in the coming months.
As far as experiments in the transmissibility of the novel coronavirus go, there are crowded venues all over the country as reported in numerous articles. We’ll see where this leaves us in the coming months.
Nothing we do is going to make an appreciable difference as long as these numbers hold true.
Seconded.
The rich would rather speculate billions in money losing ventures (uber, lyft, et al) rather than pay a few extra pennies to their employees.
The fed’s money cannon is pointed in the wrong direction.
Nothing we do is going to make an appreciable difference as long as these numbers hold true.
Seconded.
The rich would rather speculate billions in money losing ventures (uber, lyft, et al) rather than pay a few extra pennies to their employees.
The fed’s money cannon is pointed in the wrong direction.
more here.
more here.
The rich would rather speculate billions in money losing ventures (uber, lyft, et al) rather than pay a few extra pennies to their employees.
In the long run, which benefits employees more? Even money-losing ventures, while they last, pay employees, give them useful experience, and provide useful products and services people are willing to pay for. The airline industry, taken as a whole, has never made, or very little of, a profit.
The rich would rather speculate billions in money losing ventures (uber, lyft, et al) rather than pay a few extra pennies to their employees.
In the long run, which benefits employees more? Even money-losing ventures, while they last, pay employees, give them useful experience, and provide useful products and services people are willing to pay for. The airline industry, taken as a whole, has never made, or very little of, a profit.
which benefits employees more?
Getting paid well enough to be basically financially secure. That is what benefits employees more.
which benefits employees more?
Getting paid well enough to be basically financially secure. That is what benefits employees more.
WRS — What would benefit employees more in the long run would be for the billionaires to make peace with losing money they have no need of so that those employees were paid more money that was actually having a meaningful effect on their lives.
Those employees can make the same products that they were making all along and charge the same prices for them and sell them to the same people that had been buying them all along. The only net effect would be that one person’s fortune would shrink in ways that made no appreciable difference to their way of life and the employees would be able to improve their own quality of life in transformative ways.
WRS — What would benefit employees more in the long run would be for the billionaires to make peace with losing money they have no need of so that those employees were paid more money that was actually having a meaningful effect on their lives.
Those employees can make the same products that they were making all along and charge the same prices for them and sell them to the same people that had been buying them all along. The only net effect would be that one person’s fortune would shrink in ways that made no appreciable difference to their way of life and the employees would be able to improve their own quality of life in transformative ways.
Getting paid well enough to be basically financially secure.
A vague and moving goalpost that varies with time, place and the individual employee.
Getting paid well enough to be basically financially secure.
A vague and moving goalpost that varies with time, place and the individual employee.
A vague and moving goalpost that varies with time, place and the individual employee.
And yet so obvious to see when not attained.
A vague and moving goalpost that varies with time, place and the individual employee.
And yet so obvious to see when not attained.
A vague and moving goalpost that varies with time, place and the individual employee.
Asserted by somebody who had the gall to open a previous statement of his with the words, “In the long run…”
A vague and moving goalpost that varies with time, place and the individual employee.
Asserted by somebody who had the gall to open a previous statement of his with the words, “In the long run…”
The maldistribution of wealth and income is the underlying source of the earlier disagreement on this thread, so it’s all of a piece.
The maldistribution of wealth and income is the underlying source of the earlier disagreement on this thread, so it’s all of a piece.
Something for cleek, h/t Anne Laurie at BJ. How sad would you be? 😉
Something for cleek, h/t Anne Laurie at BJ. How sad would you be? 😉
A state “that is farther along on reopening ” seems likely to translate to “a state which is charging forward with minimal if any safeguards.” In other words, a state where the chances of picking up covid-19 from the locals (as opposed to just from fellow believers in the “hoax” nonsense) is significantly higher. Wonder how much damage to the GOP infrastructure that translates to going forward.
A state “that is farther along on reopening ” seems likely to translate to “a state which is charging forward with minimal if any safeguards.” In other words, a state where the chances of picking up covid-19 from the locals (as opposed to just from fellow believers in the “hoax” nonsense) is significantly higher. Wonder how much damage to the GOP infrastructure that translates to going forward.
good.
the prospect of that piece of crap slithering around my fair state never sat well with me.
he’s all yours, Oklabama.
good.
the prospect of that piece of crap slithering around my fair state never sat well with me.
he’s all yours, Oklabama.
everybody has some crazy in their neighborhood
everybody has some crazy in their neighborhood
The ongoing miracle is that, after centuries of these various groups conspiring to destroy the economy and Western (or at leadt the local national) culture, etc., they have so singly failed to do so. So brilliant at conspiring, in so many different fields, and at keeping evidence of doing so hidden. Yet so inept at achieving their objectives.
/sarcasm
The ongoing miracle is that, after centuries of these various groups conspiring to destroy the economy and Western (or at leadt the local national) culture, etc., they have so singly failed to do so. So brilliant at conspiring, in so many different fields, and at keeping evidence of doing so hidden. Yet so inept at achieving their objectives.
/sarcasm
Rhetoric quibble: One in five do not “believe” that Jews created COVID-19; one in five “claim to believe.”
We have no idea how many of those people actually believe that, any more than we know how many people actually believe that, but would never admit it out loud.
I’d be more willing to trust the numbers if they were based on analysis of actual social media content and not on a poll.
Rhetoric quibble: One in five do not “believe” that Jews created COVID-19; one in five “claim to believe.”
We have no idea how many of those people actually believe that, any more than we know how many people actually believe that, but would never admit it out loud.
I’d be more willing to trust the numbers if they were based on analysis of actual social media content and not on a poll.
So, how much are pollsters spreading conspiracy theories by making up conspiracy theories to ask people about?
So, how much are pollsters spreading conspiracy theories by making up conspiracy theories to ask people about?
if i ask you if you believe X and you said you do, it’s not my fault if i then tell other people you believe X.
if i ask you if you believe X and you said you do, it’s not my fault if i then tell other people you believe X.
cleek – good to know that we have a few hundred Dragonkin living in the US. 😉
It is known.
cleek – good to know that we have a few hundred Dragonkin living in the US. 😉
It is known.
ok. i guess we could mind-read and assume they’re lying for giggles.
ok. i guess we could mind-read and assume they’re lying for giggles.
So, how much are pollsters spreading conspiracy theories by making up conspiracy theories to ask people about?
A “made-up” conspiracy theory would be something like “the coronavirus is a mass hypnotic illusion propagated by lizard people who emerge from the hot molten core of the earth during volcanic explosions”.
“The Jews did it” is a popular old chestnut, right at the top of the racist paranoia hit parade. No need for undue creativity on the part of pollsters.
“Muslims did it” is relatively new, but it’s giving the old favorites a run for their money.
So, how much are pollsters spreading conspiracy theories by making up conspiracy theories to ask people about?
A “made-up” conspiracy theory would be something like “the coronavirus is a mass hypnotic illusion propagated by lizard people who emerge from the hot molten core of the earth during volcanic explosions”.
“The Jews did it” is a popular old chestnut, right at the top of the racist paranoia hit parade. No need for undue creativity on the part of pollsters.
“Muslims did it” is relatively new, but it’s giving the old favorites a run for their money.
“What would benefit employees more in the long run would be for the billionaires to make peace with losing money they have no need of so that those employees were paid more money that was actually having a meaningful effect on their lives.
Those employees can make the same products that they were making all along and charge the same prices for them and sell them to the same people that had been buying them all along. The only net effect would be that one person’s fortune would shrink in ways that made no appreciable difference to their way of life and the employees would be able to improve their own quality of life in transformative ways.”
It’s really more complex than this. I suspect most people here know that, but felt obliged to have at least one person point out this isnt true.
“What would benefit employees more in the long run would be for the billionaires to make peace with losing money they have no need of so that those employees were paid more money that was actually having a meaningful effect on their lives.
Those employees can make the same products that they were making all along and charge the same prices for them and sell them to the same people that had been buying them all along. The only net effect would be that one person’s fortune would shrink in ways that made no appreciable difference to their way of life and the employees would be able to improve their own quality of life in transformative ways.”
It’s really more complex than this. I suspect most people here know that, but felt obliged to have at least one person point out this isnt true.
Everything is more complex than what can be squeezed into a blog comment.
That said, what would benefit employees and probably about 99.5% of the population in general would be if more of the wealth created by the American economy went to people who derive their income by working, rather than from investment.
Everything is more complex than what can be squeezed into a blog comment.
That said, what would benefit employees and probably about 99.5% of the population in general would be if more of the wealth created by the American economy went to people who derive their income by working, rather than from investment.
In regularly checking the U.S. numbers on the Worldometer site, something I’ve noticed that makes me wonder what relationship the numbers have to reality is the wide divergence in the percentage of “recovered” cases among the states.
Since I live here, I’ve been tracking how relatively few “recovered” cases in Georgia are implied by the statistics. Out of 43,730 total cases, only 697 are neither active nor deaths. After a quick scan of other states, it looks like Arizona is the only state with a lower recovered/total cases ratio, 70 recovered out of 16,783. Then you’ve got Pennsylvania where over half of 72,900 total cases are recovered.
Another example of why to stick with the death count, as imperfect as it may be.
In regularly checking the U.S. numbers on the Worldometer site, something I’ve noticed that makes me wonder what relationship the numbers have to reality is the wide divergence in the percentage of “recovered” cases among the states.
Since I live here, I’ve been tracking how relatively few “recovered” cases in Georgia are implied by the statistics. Out of 43,730 total cases, only 697 are neither active nor deaths. After a quick scan of other states, it looks like Arizona is the only state with a lower recovered/total cases ratio, 70 recovered out of 16,783. Then you’ve got Pennsylvania where over half of 72,900 total cases are recovered.
Another example of why to stick with the death count, as imperfect as it may be.
none could have guessed that Trump’s latest twitter tantrum over the location of the RNC convention is threatening to blow up negotiations over that issue which were already in progress.
none could have guessed that Trump’s latest twitter tantrum over the location of the RNC convention is threatening to blow up negotiations over that issue which were already in progress.
cleek, note also that those are reasonably congenial, certainly non-confrontational, negotiations. Or were, until the 2-year-old-in-chief weighed in.
cleek, note also that those are reasonably congenial, certainly non-confrontational, negotiations. Or were, until the 2-year-old-in-chief weighed in.
The ongoing miracle is that, after centuries of these various groups conspiring to destroy the economy and Western (or at leadt the local national) culture, etc., they have so singly failed to do so. So brilliant at conspiring, in so many different fields, and at keeping evidence of doing so hidden. Yet so inept at achieving their objectives.
wj, speaking as a representative of one of these groups, I am only sad that you thought it necessary to specify that this masterly comment was sarcasm.
The ongoing miracle is that, after centuries of these various groups conspiring to destroy the economy and Western (or at leadt the local national) culture, etc., they have so singly failed to do so. So brilliant at conspiring, in so many different fields, and at keeping evidence of doing so hidden. Yet so inept at achieving their objectives.
wj, speaking as a representative of one of these groups, I am only sad that you thought it necessary to specify that this masterly comment was sarcasm.
@Priest — I’ve been thinking of trying to do some graphs of excess deaths, but I don’t know if I want to put the time into it. The NYT has a lot of US info on that subject in an article published on 5/5 and updated on 5/21.
From that article:
Many layers of unknowns embedded in those numbers.
The US passed 100,000 deaths today, acc’ to Worldometer.
@Priest — I’ve been thinking of trying to do some graphs of excess deaths, but I don’t know if I want to put the time into it. The NYT has a lot of US info on that subject in an article published on 5/5 and updated on 5/21.
From that article:
Many layers of unknowns embedded in those numbers.
The US passed 100,000 deaths today, acc’ to Worldometer.
GftNC, it occasionally occurs to me that stuff posted on the Internet like this is subject to being tead, out of context, decades from now. By people with no clue about any of us. Alas.
GftNC, it occasionally occurs to me that stuff posted on the Internet like this is subject to being tead, out of context, decades from now. By people with no clue about any of us. Alas.
I suppose you’re right. I can’t even imagine how it could be misunderstood, which is no doubt a failure of my imagination. Alas indeed.
I suppose you’re right. I can’t even imagine how it could be misunderstood, which is no doubt a failure of my imagination. Alas indeed.
Well there are those who would argue that it is literally a miracle. Although they generally get a little vague when asked why, if God has been miraculously thwarting such conspiracies for centuries, today we suddenly need “2nd Amendment solutions”. Perhaps their faith is weak; at least, weaker than previous generations. 😉
As noted elsewhere, today it is really, really difficult to come up with a parody which won’t turn up as reality before the bread finishes rising.
Well there are those who would argue that it is literally a miracle. Although they generally get a little vague when asked why, if God has been miraculously thwarting such conspiracies for centuries, today we suddenly need “2nd Amendment solutions”. Perhaps their faith is weak; at least, weaker than previous generations. 😉
As noted elsewhere, today it is really, really difficult to come up with a parody which won’t turn up as reality before the bread finishes rising.
“GOP policies:
Tomorrow’s Onion headlines, TODAY!”
Mixed in with Weekly World News headlines, also, too.
“GOP policies:
Tomorrow’s Onion headlines, TODAY!”
Mixed in with Weekly World News headlines, also, too.
Truthiness is stranger than fiction.
Truthiness is stranger than fiction.
Graphs updated to today, 7-day rolling averages, no dailies. New graphs at the top, old ones below the fold now.
Strange times. Factoids rolling around in my brain:
1. The UK passed Italy in deaths per million population, with no notice as far as I can tell. Italy’s tragedy was treated as just that a couple of months ago. Now? Meh.
2. The UK’s graph is falling more steeply than the US’s. I’m afraid the US is going to have a big relapse in a few weeks, if Memorial Day is any indication. Maybe we’ll be saved by the fact that the virus doesn’t spread very easily outdoors. (Is that why the 1918 flu IIRC had a big second way in the fall…?)
3. Now we have another reason to say to everyone: stay safe.
Graphs updated to today, 7-day rolling averages, no dailies. New graphs at the top, old ones below the fold now.
Strange times. Factoids rolling around in my brain:
1. The UK passed Italy in deaths per million population, with no notice as far as I can tell. Italy’s tragedy was treated as just that a couple of months ago. Now? Meh.
2. The UK’s graph is falling more steeply than the US’s. I’m afraid the US is going to have a big relapse in a few weeks, if Memorial Day is any indication. Maybe we’ll be saved by the fact that the virus doesn’t spread very easily outdoors. (Is that why the 1918 flu IIRC had a big second way in the fall…?)
3. Now we have another reason to say to everyone: stay safe.
And the UK will surpass Spain on the same measure within a week, as Sweden will surpass France. The odd thing about Sweden is that the percentage of outcomes resulting in death, after the initial zig-sagging, is slowly but steadily rising. I’ve seen the opposite most everywhere else.
And the UK will surpass Spain on the same measure within a week, as Sweden will surpass France. The odd thing about Sweden is that the percentage of outcomes resulting in death, after the initial zig-sagging, is slowly but steadily rising. I’ve seen the opposite most everywhere else.
went out last night to pick up a pizza. town was hopping. and i was the only person anywhere wearing a mask.
friends are out and about. people are posting pics on FB of them hanging out in bars.
wtf
went out last night to pick up a pizza. town was hopping. and i was the only person anywhere wearing a mask.
friends are out and about. people are posting pics on FB of them hanging out in bars.
wtf
And the UK will surpass Spain on the same measure within a week
Brazil just passed Spain.
And the UK will surpass Spain on the same measure within a week
Brazil just passed Spain.
It looks like we might have a big uptick in cases soon, too. Anecdata: crowds drinking beer outside pubs, crowds on beaches etc. Some tying it to Dominic Cummings and the failure of “do as I say and not as I do”.
Meanwhile, I thought this a good piece from the NYT on the arrest of the CNN crew in Minneapolis:
It looks like we might have a big uptick in cases soon, too. Anecdata: crowds drinking beer outside pubs, crowds on beaches etc. Some tying it to Dominic Cummings and the failure of “do as I say and not as I do”.
Meanwhile, I thought this a good piece from the NYT on the arrest of the CNN crew in Minneapolis:
friends are out and about. people are posting pics on FB of them hanging out in bars.
wtf
What cleek said.
I’m seeing this around here, including among people I thought had a functioning brain cell or two. Some transition happened to where a lot of people have decided…something.
It’s over?
It’s not over but it doesn’t matter?
It won’t happen to them and it doesn’t matter if it happens to someone else?
I mean, that person was going to die of complications of diabetes in another oh, twenty or thirty years anyhow, and other people are expendable for other reasons.
Or: for a lot of people, the dead are still nameless and invisible.
I dunno. I’m staying home.
[And I don’t want to hear any more in this thread about the poor starving evicted hairdressers. We’re talking about people at bars and clubs, and on boardwalks and beaches. And let’s not forget the Dairy Queen. This happened all over the US over the holiday weekend.]
friends are out and about. people are posting pics on FB of them hanging out in bars.
wtf
What cleek said.
I’m seeing this around here, including among people I thought had a functioning brain cell or two. Some transition happened to where a lot of people have decided…something.
It’s over?
It’s not over but it doesn’t matter?
It won’t happen to them and it doesn’t matter if it happens to someone else?
I mean, that person was going to die of complications of diabetes in another oh, twenty or thirty years anyhow, and other people are expendable for other reasons.
Or: for a lot of people, the dead are still nameless and invisible.
I dunno. I’m staying home.
[And I don’t want to hear any more in this thread about the poor starving evicted hairdressers. We’re talking about people at bars and clubs, and on boardwalks and beaches. And let’s not forget the Dairy Queen. This happened all over the US over the holiday weekend.]
Here in my area north of Dallas, more people are out and about. But a higher percentage of them are wearing masks.
Here in my area north of Dallas, more people are out and about. But a higher percentage of them are wearing masks.
I went to my ususal hairdresser about a week after they reopened here. It had a distinct vibe of operating room. Gloves, masks for both personnel and customers (only two at any time allowed inside), single use covers, repeated disinfection of all intruments (any time one was put down it got a dose of disinfectant before getting used again) etc. And everyone entering or leaving had to do hand disinfection. No haircut without thorougly washing it before (not just at home before going there as usual). Also no superfluous talking. The only thing missing was the personnel wearing MOPP IV suits and a disinfectant shower. I have yet to see another place taking the stuff more seriously.
I went to my ususal hairdresser about a week after they reopened here. It had a distinct vibe of operating room. Gloves, masks for both personnel and customers (only two at any time allowed inside), single use covers, repeated disinfection of all intruments (any time one was put down it got a dose of disinfectant before getting used again) etc. And everyone entering or leaving had to do hand disinfection. No haircut without thorougly washing it before (not just at home before going there as usual). Also no superfluous talking. The only thing missing was the personnel wearing MOPP IV suits and a disinfectant shower. I have yet to see another place taking the stuff more seriously.
Brazil just passed Spain.
Not in total deaths per capita.
Brazil just passed Spain.
Not in total deaths per capita.
I’m seeing this around here, including among people I thought had a functioning brain cell or two. Some transition happened to where a lot of people have decided…something.
I wonder if what we’re seeing is a reflection of how long (short) people’s attention spans have become. They simply have trouble wrapping their heads around something lasting so long. At least, not without constant reinforcement. (And they’re getting the opposite.)
[Insert rant about the difference it makes if your reading consists primarily of text messages vs novels.]
I’m seeing this around here, including among people I thought had a functioning brain cell or two. Some transition happened to where a lot of people have decided…something.
I wonder if what we’re seeing is a reflection of how long (short) people’s attention spans have become. They simply have trouble wrapping their heads around something lasting so long. At least, not without constant reinforcement. (And they’re getting the opposite.)
[Insert rant about the difference it makes if your reading consists primarily of text messages vs novels.]
For a lot of people, lockdown fatigue is setting in and they’re trying to find a balance between staying at home forever and living a normal life.
For a lot of people, lockdown fatigue is setting in and they’re trying to find a balance between staying at home forever and living a normal life.
For a lot of people, lockdown fatigue is setting in and they’re trying to find a balance between staying at home forever and living a normal life.
Sure, people are fatigued. Including me.
But sorry, wearing a mask in public or in workplaces or stores, which many people are flatly refusing to do, is not a hardship even remotely on the order of “staying at home forever.” A lot of people just don’t give a shit.
For a lot of people, lockdown fatigue is setting in and they’re trying to find a balance between staying at home forever and living a normal life.
Sure, people are fatigued. Including me.
But sorry, wearing a mask in public or in workplaces or stores, which many people are flatly refusing to do, is not a hardship even remotely on the order of “staying at home forever.” A lot of people just don’t give a shit.
A lot of people are mayors of Amity Island in the first act of Jaws.
A lot of people are mayors of Amity Island in the first act of Jaws.
I try to imagine what would happen if some major event required the implementation of WWII-style rationing. I don’t see it going well, whichever party controlled the government would have its’ motives held as suspect by 45%+ of the population. “Shared sacrifice” after 9/11 – Bush telling the country to buy more. During temporary gas shortage Obama getting mocked for suggesting common-sense efficiency measures. Who still has their Sarah Palin tire pressure gauge? In the 70s people resented being told to turn down their thermostats during colder months.
Not being very coherent, just not very hopeful.
I try to imagine what would happen if some major event required the implementation of WWII-style rationing. I don’t see it going well, whichever party controlled the government would have its’ motives held as suspect by 45%+ of the population. “Shared sacrifice” after 9/11 – Bush telling the country to buy more. During temporary gas shortage Obama getting mocked for suggesting common-sense efficiency measures. Who still has their Sarah Palin tire pressure gauge? In the 70s people resented being told to turn down their thermostats during colder months.
Not being very coherent, just not very hopeful.
Meanwhile, liberals are the snowflakes.
Meanwhile, liberals are the snowflakes.
and they’re trying to find a balance between staying at home forever and living a normal life
know what won’t be living a normal life?
spitting out pieces of one’s broken lungs.
and they’re trying to find a balance between staying at home forever and living a normal life
know what won’t be living a normal life?
spitting out pieces of one’s broken lungs.
Normal if you’re Aqualung.
Normal if you’re Aqualung.
Perhaps of interest.
I have no idea why people find it difficult to wear a mask when they’re out in public. I understand that it might be awkward, but it doesn’t seem like a very big ask.
We’re probably gonna be losing 1,000+ people a day to this for a while. Maybe until there’s a vaccine. Maybe until whoever is likely to die from it, dies from it. I have no idea.
I wear a mask, minimize close contact with anyone other than my wife, wash stuff before we bring it in the house, etc. It’s a PITA, but we’re old enough to be at risk, so we do it.
Other folks are gonna do what they do. I have no illusions about persuading anyone about any of this.
Most likely, by which I mean almost certainly, more people are going to get sick than would otherwise get sick. Apparently a lot of folks see that as a fair trade.
I’ve kind of given up on making sense of it. I just stay away from them.
Perhaps of interest.
I have no idea why people find it difficult to wear a mask when they’re out in public. I understand that it might be awkward, but it doesn’t seem like a very big ask.
We’re probably gonna be losing 1,000+ people a day to this for a while. Maybe until there’s a vaccine. Maybe until whoever is likely to die from it, dies from it. I have no idea.
I wear a mask, minimize close contact with anyone other than my wife, wash stuff before we bring it in the house, etc. It’s a PITA, but we’re old enough to be at risk, so we do it.
Other folks are gonna do what they do. I have no illusions about persuading anyone about any of this.
Most likely, by which I mean almost certainly, more people are going to get sick than would otherwise get sick. Apparently a lot of folks see that as a fair trade.
I’ve kind of given up on making sense of it. I just stay away from them.
Tuesday I finally got a shipment of masks of the “wear a few times and toss” type. They’re stamped out of thin, stretchy foam. I don’t know whether they’re very effective or not. But, now, I can be one of the cool kids.
Tuesday I finally got a shipment of masks of the “wear a few times and toss” type. They’re stamped out of thin, stretchy foam. I don’t know whether they’re very effective or not. But, now, I can be one of the cool kids.
Tuesday I finally got a shipment of masks of the “wear a few times and toss” type. They’re stamped out of thin, stretchy foam. I don’t know whether they’re very effective or not. But, now, I can be one of the cool kids.
Tuesday I finally got a shipment of masks of the “wear a few times and toss” type. They’re stamped out of thin, stretchy foam. I don’t know whether they’re very effective or not. But, now, I can be one of the cool kids.
Hmmm…a “two for one” click…
Hmmm…a “two for one” click…
One of my nieces is a nurse. She’s in Gilbert AZ, right near Phoenix.
She’s in contact with COVID patients more or less daily. She gets one surgical mask a day and one N95 mask a week.
She regularly posts about COVID-related things. Most disturbing thing so far – if your oxygen levels are too low, they may not be able to sedate you for intubation. So, they’ll just paralyze you, chemically. And then intubate you.
Neighbor across the street works in a local elder care facility. She not only comes in contact with COVID patients, people have died of COVID in her facility. She gets one N95 mask a week.
If it seems like the people in the US who are responsible for public health are not taking this particularly seriously, I’d say that was accurate. Other folks may just be taking their cue from that.
Worldometer says 1,212 people in the US died of COVID yesterday. We’re up to 811 so far for today, and it’s not quite 5:00 PM EST.
So it goes, as the great late Kurt Vonnegut would say. Po-tee-weet.
I wear a mask and stay away from folks who don’t.
One of my nieces is a nurse. She’s in Gilbert AZ, right near Phoenix.
She’s in contact with COVID patients more or less daily. She gets one surgical mask a day and one N95 mask a week.
She regularly posts about COVID-related things. Most disturbing thing so far – if your oxygen levels are too low, they may not be able to sedate you for intubation. So, they’ll just paralyze you, chemically. And then intubate you.
Neighbor across the street works in a local elder care facility. She not only comes in contact with COVID patients, people have died of COVID in her facility. She gets one N95 mask a week.
If it seems like the people in the US who are responsible for public health are not taking this particularly seriously, I’d say that was accurate. Other folks may just be taking their cue from that.
Worldometer says 1,212 people in the US died of COVID yesterday. We’re up to 811 so far for today, and it’s not quite 5:00 PM EST.
So it goes, as the great late Kurt Vonnegut would say. Po-tee-weet.
I wear a mask and stay away from folks who don’t.
i just made a custom washable mask with the Beatles from the Help! cover printed on it.
i just made a custom washable mask with the Beatles from the Help! cover printed on it.
i tried to make it work with the Beasties from Check Your Head, but couldn’t get things to line up right.
i tried to make it work with the Beasties from Check Your Head, but couldn’t get things to line up right.
But, now, I can be one of the cool kids.
No, if you want to be one of the cool kids, you need an ethically sourced artisanal mask made from upcycled linen. These guys make beautiful shoes, too, but I digress.
If you’re a MAGAt, wear a MAGA mask.
If you pine for the confederacy, wear a stars and bars mask.
If you’re an antifa anarchist kiddo, just keep wearing that black mask you already have on.
If you’re a coastal elitist fashion victim, double up one of your Hermes scarfs and wrap that around your face.
If you’re a regular Joe Six-pack kind of guy, where one of your wood shop dust masks.
Whatever floats your boat. Just use your head and stay safe.
But, now, I can be one of the cool kids.
No, if you want to be one of the cool kids, you need an ethically sourced artisanal mask made from upcycled linen. These guys make beautiful shoes, too, but I digress.
If you’re a MAGAt, wear a MAGA mask.
If you pine for the confederacy, wear a stars and bars mask.
If you’re an antifa anarchist kiddo, just keep wearing that black mask you already have on.
If you’re a coastal elitist fashion victim, double up one of your Hermes scarfs and wrap that around your face.
If you’re a regular Joe Six-pack kind of guy, where one of your wood shop dust masks.
Whatever floats your boat. Just use your head and stay safe.
I dig the “Help” mask, cleek!
I dig the “Help” mask, cleek!
That’s cool, cleek!
My son has been making masks and mine are made of Star Wars fabric. For others, he has used fabric with superheroes.
I’m not going off the property much, so I don’t have a lot of need for them, but I’m prepared!
*****
russell — thanks for that link, though it’s terrifying. The article makes me wonder: if this theory (that the virus attacks blood vessels) turns out to be true, is COVID-19 a respiratory disease at all? I suppose the nomenclature doesn’t matter much. but wow. (I have high cholesterol…yech.)
Are we to assume that the many many people who have few or symptoms just fight the virus off before it starts doing damage, or what? (I suppose this is an important question regardless of how the virus actually works.) I’ve been wondering, in my more pessimistic moods, whether people who have had mild cases will find out later that there’s some kind of lasting damage. I hope not.
That’s cool, cleek!
My son has been making masks and mine are made of Star Wars fabric. For others, he has used fabric with superheroes.
I’m not going off the property much, so I don’t have a lot of need for them, but I’m prepared!
*****
russell — thanks for that link, though it’s terrifying. The article makes me wonder: if this theory (that the virus attacks blood vessels) turns out to be true, is COVID-19 a respiratory disease at all? I suppose the nomenclature doesn’t matter much. but wow. (I have high cholesterol…yech.)
Are we to assume that the many many people who have few or symptoms just fight the virus off before it starts doing damage, or what? (I suppose this is an important question regardless of how the virus actually works.) I’ve been wondering, in my more pessimistic moods, whether people who have had mild cases will find out later that there’s some kind of lasting damage. I hope not.
If it seems like the people in the US who are responsible for public health are not taking this particularly seriously, I’d say that was accurate. Other folks may just be taking their cue from that.
Yes. But even where the people who are responsible for public health at the state level are taking this very seriously (e.g. in my state), there’s a partisanship problem and maybe a messaging problem. Although I don’t know what kind of messaging operation could counteract the lunacies that people swallow whole these days.
If it seems like the people in the US who are responsible for public health are not taking this particularly seriously, I’d say that was accurate. Other folks may just be taking their cue from that.
Yes. But even where the people who are responsible for public health at the state level are taking this very seriously (e.g. in my state), there’s a partisanship problem and maybe a messaging problem. Although I don’t know what kind of messaging operation could counteract the lunacies that people swallow whole these days.
Perhaps of interest.
holy crap.
Perhaps of interest.
holy crap.
oddly enough, I found the Medium piece encouraging. if we’re getting a better understanding of how this sneaky little bastard works, that may help us figure out how to treat and prevent it.
from the article, it sounded like the vascular aspects of the virus’ behavior were treatable, at least to some degree, by well-known things like statins.
the more we know about it, the better we’ll be able to deal with it.
in the meantime, I will wear my mask, and stay away from folks who don’t.
oddly enough, I found the Medium piece encouraging. if we’re getting a better understanding of how this sneaky little bastard works, that may help us figure out how to treat and prevent it.
from the article, it sounded like the vascular aspects of the virus’ behavior were treatable, at least to some degree, by well-known things like statins.
the more we know about it, the better we’ll be able to deal with it.
in the meantime, I will wear my mask, and stay away from folks who don’t.
My reaction was more like russell’s @06.54. Also, I was pleased to be on statins for a change.
My reaction was more like russell’s @06.54. Also, I was pleased to be on statins for a change.
Most likely, by which I mean almost certainly, more people are going to get sick than would otherwise get sick. Apparently a lot of folks see that as a fair trade.
Consider how many people contract STDs because they can’t be bothered to use a condom when having sex with a prostitute. Some people just think they’re invulnerable to anything and everything. Right up until they get burned . . . and then bitch because nobody stopped them from being self-destructive.
Most likely, by which I mean almost certainly, more people are going to get sick than would otherwise get sick. Apparently a lot of folks see that as a fair trade.
Consider how many people contract STDs because they can’t be bothered to use a condom when having sex with a prostitute. Some people just think they’re invulnerable to anything and everything. Right up until they get burned . . . and then bitch because nobody stopped them from being self-destructive.
Also, I was pleased to be on statins for a change.
What does this mean? I’m not following the logic.
I agree with both of you (GftNC and russell) that in general every step toward understanding this virus is a good thing. But the theory that it attacks blood vessels adds to the scariness for me personally. Long story.
Also, I was pleased to be on statins for a change.
What does this mean? I’m not following the logic.
I agree with both of you (GftNC and russell) that in general every step toward understanding this virus is a good thing. But the theory that it attacks blood vessels adds to the scariness for me personally. Long story.
It means that I’m on statins for moderately raised cholesterol, and used to being told from time to time that according to studies that actually may not be such a good thing. And my quick read of russell’s link seemed to me to suggest that people on statins may have some protection from the worst effects of Covid-19,if they are unlucky enough to catch it.
It means that I’m on statins for moderately raised cholesterol, and used to being told from time to time that according to studies that actually may not be such a good thing. And my quick read of russell’s link seemed to me to suggest that people on statins may have some protection from the worst effects of Covid-19,if they are unlucky enough to catch it.
7-day avg graphs updated.
*****
GftNC: thanks, I see now. I have refused to take statins (relying on other good numbers and a pristine family history). But I do worry about it, and wonder if I’m making the right decision. If the theory in that essay turns out to have merit, yet still, now isn’t exactly the best time to go on a medical question (tests etc.). Ah well.
7-day avg graphs updated.
*****
GftNC: thanks, I see now. I have refused to take statins (relying on other good numbers and a pristine family history). But I do worry about it, and wonder if I’m making the right decision. If the theory in that essay turns out to have merit, yet still, now isn’t exactly the best time to go on a medical question (tests etc.). Ah well.
I wonder, if one of these would be effective.
https://www.sciencesource.com/archive/Hincherton-Hayfever-Helmet-SS2446473.html
I wonder, if one of these would be effective.
https://www.sciencesource.com/archive/Hincherton-Hayfever-Helmet-SS2446473.html
Also, I was pleased to be on statins for a change.
What does this mean? I’m not following the logic.
There is all sorts of evidence that statins have a broad anti-inflammatory effect (for which we don’t completely understand the mechanism ).
It also appears that there is a strong correlation between chronic inflammation and worse Covid outcomes (alongside the correlation between statin use and better outcomes).
So we have reasonable evidence to think that statins have a protective effect, but were not really sure exactly how that might work.
(There is also, I think, an association between inflammation and clotting, and Covid seems to be a disease if the blood as much as the lungs, causing hypercoagulation in serious cases.)
Also, I was pleased to be on statins for a change.
What does this mean? I’m not following the logic.
There is all sorts of evidence that statins have a broad anti-inflammatory effect (for which we don’t completely understand the mechanism ).
It also appears that there is a strong correlation between chronic inflammation and worse Covid outcomes (alongside the correlation between statin use and better outcomes).
So we have reasonable evidence to think that statins have a protective effect, but were not really sure exactly how that might work.
(There is also, I think, an association between inflammation and clotting, and Covid seems to be a disease if the blood as much as the lungs, causing hypercoagulation in serious cases.)
Having posted that, I then found russell’s link (!) which explains it in rather more detail.
Having posted that, I then found russell’s link (!) which explains it in rather more detail.
Btw, in case it hasn’t been mentioned, if you’re making masks, layering two different kinds of fabric can make them considerably more effective at filtering fine aerosols.
(Apparently through electrostatic effects.)
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.0c03252#
Btw, in case it hasn’t been mentioned, if you’re making masks, layering two different kinds of fabric can make them considerably more effective at filtering fine aerosols.
(Apparently through electrostatic effects.)
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.0c03252#
Kavanaugh really is a shockingly bad jurist.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/05/supreme-court-coronavirus-california-churches.html
Kavanaugh really is a shockingly bad jurist.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/05/supreme-court-coronavirus-california-churches.html
I assume that was a prerequisite. Competence is good in hackers, not in designated hacks.
I assume that was a prerequisite. Competence is good in hackers, not in designated hacks.
Kavanaugh is not a jurist. He’s a partisan hatchet man who has been rewarded with judicial appointments for which he has neither the temperament or the skills.
Kavanaugh is not a jurist. He’s a partisan hatchet man who has been rewarded with judicial appointments for which he has neither the temperament or the skills.
I recall someone (CharlesWT, maybe?) posting a link a couple weeks ago to a piece discussing apparent benefits of rosuvastatin to COVID-19 patients already taking it for other reasons.
I recall someone (CharlesWT, maybe?) posting a link a couple weeks ago to a piece discussing apparent benefits of rosuvastatin to COVID-19 patients already taking it for other reasons.
So on a statin, as well as rat poison for life (aka warfarin), as a result of 2 unexplained (no know risk factors) pulmonary embolisms in less than 3 1/2 years. So high risk conditions/maintenance medications=???
So on a statin, as well as rat poison for life (aka warfarin), as a result of 2 unexplained (no know risk factors) pulmonary embolisms in less than 3 1/2 years. So high risk conditions/maintenance medications=???
Sweden has surpassed France in per capita COVID-19 deaths. Anti-lock-down factions don’t seem to be talking about Sweden so much these days.
Sweden has surpassed France in per capita COVID-19 deaths. Anti-lock-down factions don’t seem to be talking about Sweden so much these days.
I’m sure you all probably saw this.
A lucky thing. An encouragement for mask wearing.
I’m sure you all probably saw this.
A lucky thing. An encouragement for mask wearing.
From sapient’s TPM link: “One more datapoint for the efficacy of masking – not as a foolproof solution but one that at scale significantly reduces transmission.“
One problem with conveying to the public this kind of information is that a significant number of people don’t seem to be comfortable with probabilistic thinking. If it’s not foolproof, it “doesn’t work” and is therefore useless. Meanwhile, if wearing homemade cloth masks reduced the chance of transmission by even as little as 25%, it would make a huge difference in the rate of spread if everyone wore them. And it’s probably more like 70%.
The anti-mask thing is the most dangerous and self-defeating aspect of public sentiment on the pandemic, IMO (aside possibly from the belief that it’s a hoax, which underlies much of the anti-mask thing, anyway).
From sapient’s TPM link: “One more datapoint for the efficacy of masking – not as a foolproof solution but one that at scale significantly reduces transmission.“
One problem with conveying to the public this kind of information is that a significant number of people don’t seem to be comfortable with probabilistic thinking. If it’s not foolproof, it “doesn’t work” and is therefore useless. Meanwhile, if wearing homemade cloth masks reduced the chance of transmission by even as little as 25%, it would make a huge difference in the rate of spread if everyone wore them. And it’s probably more like 70%.
The anti-mask thing is the most dangerous and self-defeating aspect of public sentiment on the pandemic, IMO (aside possibly from the belief that it’s a hoax, which underlies much of the anti-mask thing, anyway).
The anti-mask thing is the most dangerous and self-defeating aspect of public sentiment on the pandemic, IMO
But, considering the massive stupidity of the anti-vaxxer lunatics, alas not a total surprise.
The anti-mask thing is the most dangerous and self-defeating aspect of public sentiment on the pandemic, IMO
But, considering the massive stupidity of the anti-vaxxer lunatics, alas not a total surprise.