Spinning

by

by wj

It’s well after midnight in Iowa (and getting late here on the West Coast) and the results, even preliminary results, still aren’t in from the Iowa caucuses**. In fact, they’re saying it may be “late Tuesday” before we know anything. Not only after the Tuesday morning papers have got to press, but probably too late for the afternoon papers as well. The only thing we seem to know for sure is that the app for reporting results had issues.

But we’ve had victory speeches from most of the candidates — which got played on the networks because, simply put, there was no real news to play. Once the results do come out, it seems likely that all the campaigns will be spinning the results like mad. From what I can see at the moment, the Biden campaign is acting like they think they under-performed. Not that this will stop them spinning, even if (or especially if) they did. And even those who did well are likely to be over-hyping their success in the hopes of getting some kind of “bounce” going forward.

So, what to make of the results, once they appear? In short, Open Thread

** That’s the Democratic caucuses. To nobody’s surprise, Trump won the Republican caucuses. With maybe 3% of Republicans having the courage to vote for someone else in public.

634 thoughts on “Spinning”

  1. A soviet turnout for a sociopathic con man. Incompetence and nearly literally a circle jerk from the opposition.
    This is starting to look like a good year to develop a drinking problem.

  2. A soviet turnout for a sociopathic con man. Incompetence and nearly literally a circle jerk from the opposition.
    This is starting to look like a good year to develop a drinking problem.

  5. Does it matter if these results are a day late?
    Meanwhile, bookies’ favourites to win the presidential election are Trump (who’s odds on), Sanders, Biden, and Bloomberg.
    Ages 73, 78, 77, 77.
    Political platforms aside, this is madness.

  6. Does it matter if these results are a day late?
    Meanwhile, bookies’ favourites to win the presidential election are Trump (who’s odds on), Sanders, Biden, and Bloomberg.
    Ages 73, 78, 77, 77.
    Political platforms aside, this is madness.

  7. Paper ballots. Fuck technology.
    It’s too late anyway.
    “A middle-class liberal party strong enough to block the Nazis did not exist – the People’s Party and the Democrats suffered severe losses to the Nazis at the polls. The Social Democrats were essentially a conservative trade union party, with ineffectual leadership. The Catholic Centre Party maintained its voting block, but was preoccupied with defending its own particular interests and, wrote Bullock: “through 1932-3 … was so far from recognizing the danger of a Nazi dictatorship that it continued to negotiate with the Nazis”. The Communists meanwhile were engaging in violent clashes with Nazis on the streets, but Moscow had directed the Communist Party to prioritise destruction of the Social Democrats, seeing more danger in them as a rival for the loyalty of the working class. Nevertheless, wrote Bullock, the heaviest responsibility lay with the German right wing, who “forsook a true conservatism” and made Hitler their partner in a coalition government.”
    “Both within Germany and abroad initially there were few fears that Hitler could use his position to establish his later dictatorial single-party regime. Rather, the conservatives that helped to make him chancellor were convinced that they could control Hitler and “tame” the Nazi Party while setting the relevant impulses in the government themselves; foreign ambassadors played down worries by emphasizing that Hitler was “mediocre” if not a bad copy of Mussolini; even SPD politician Kurt Schumacher trivialized Hitler as a “Dekorationsstück” (“piece of scenery/decoration”) of the new government. German newspapers wrote that, without doubt, the Hitler-led government would try to fight its political enemies (the left-wing parties), but that it would be impossible to establish a dictatorship in Germany because there was “a barrier, over which violence cannot proceed” and because of the German nation being proud of “the freedom of speech and thought”.
    “With Germans who opposed Nazism failing to unite against it, Hitler soon moved to consolidate absolute power.”
    Hitler tweeted:
    “At the risk of appearing to talk nonsense I tell you that the National Socialist movement will go on for 1,000 years! … Don’t forget how people laughed at me 15 years ago when I declared that one day I would govern Germany. They laugh now, just as foolishly, when I declare that I shall remain in power!”
    Trump’s, like Hitler, a connoissuer of the last laugh, tweets this morning will leave out the qualification of “at the risk of appearing to be talking nonsense,”.
    Hitler, in a way, had a just a bit more self-reflectiveness than the current monster.
    No doubt there were technological glitches along the way to go in 1932-33 to go with the general malfeasance among those who could have stopped the Will of Hitler.
    Dreher and the right wing crew at The American Conservative refer to America and the West now as Weimar. They see little choice but to vote for Hitler as the gaseous antidote to Weimar America, which they hate.
    Buchanan, the elite elite-hater, is getting his fascist jones on. He’s lived for this time.
    They know exactly what they are doing. They know precisely the meaning of their words.
    Janie is correct. The Nazis were not vermin. They were the all too human variety of murderers. Vermin lack agency. They are innocent.
    The Nazi Party had agency and were permitted to Will the murder of millions.
    Vermin minded their own business.
    I’ll never insult vermin again by comparing them to Nazis or Republicans.
    Anne Frank, a beautiful human soul, was murdered by human beings, not by vermin. In fact, the vermin, morally neutral mice, cockroaches, and creepy-crawlies, who happened to find shelter in the walls and under the floorboards at Prinsengracht 263 in Amsterdam, had this one and only thing in common with their human tenants:
    Both were hiding from their doom at the hands of the Nazis and Hitler.
    I now go dark, and I don’t mean the app for darkness.
    I’m going to go darker than the descending darkness.
    Also, what Pro Bono said.
    And Pro Cher and Pro The Edge.

  8. Paper ballots. Fuck technology.
    It’s too late anyway.
    “A middle-class liberal party strong enough to block the Nazis did not exist – the People’s Party and the Democrats suffered severe losses to the Nazis at the polls. The Social Democrats were essentially a conservative trade union party, with ineffectual leadership. The Catholic Centre Party maintained its voting block, but was preoccupied with defending its own particular interests and, wrote Bullock: “through 1932-3 … was so far from recognizing the danger of a Nazi dictatorship that it continued to negotiate with the Nazis”. The Communists meanwhile were engaging in violent clashes with Nazis on the streets, but Moscow had directed the Communist Party to prioritise destruction of the Social Democrats, seeing more danger in them as a rival for the loyalty of the working class. Nevertheless, wrote Bullock, the heaviest responsibility lay with the German right wing, who “forsook a true conservatism” and made Hitler their partner in a coalition government.”
    “Both within Germany and abroad initially there were few fears that Hitler could use his position to establish his later dictatorial single-party regime. Rather, the conservatives that helped to make him chancellor were convinced that they could control Hitler and “tame” the Nazi Party while setting the relevant impulses in the government themselves; foreign ambassadors played down worries by emphasizing that Hitler was “mediocre” if not a bad copy of Mussolini; even SPD politician Kurt Schumacher trivialized Hitler as a “Dekorationsstück” (“piece of scenery/decoration”) of the new government. German newspapers wrote that, without doubt, the Hitler-led government would try to fight its political enemies (the left-wing parties), but that it would be impossible to establish a dictatorship in Germany because there was “a barrier, over which violence cannot proceed” and because of the German nation being proud of “the freedom of speech and thought”.
    “With Germans who opposed Nazism failing to unite against it, Hitler soon moved to consolidate absolute power.”
    Hitler tweeted:
    “At the risk of appearing to talk nonsense I tell you that the National Socialist movement will go on for 1,000 years! … Don’t forget how people laughed at me 15 years ago when I declared that one day I would govern Germany. They laugh now, just as foolishly, when I declare that I shall remain in power!”
    Trump’s, like Hitler, a connoissuer of the last laugh, tweets this morning will leave out the qualification of “at the risk of appearing to be talking nonsense,”.
    Hitler, in a way, had a just a bit more self-reflectiveness than the current monster.
    No doubt there were technological glitches along the way to go in 1932-33 to go with the general malfeasance among those who could have stopped the Will of Hitler.
    Dreher and the right wing crew at The American Conservative refer to America and the West now as Weimar. They see little choice but to vote for Hitler as the gaseous antidote to Weimar America, which they hate.
    Buchanan, the elite elite-hater, is getting his fascist jones on. He’s lived for this time.
    They know exactly what they are doing. They know precisely the meaning of their words.
    Janie is correct. The Nazis were not vermin. They were the all too human variety of murderers. Vermin lack agency. They are innocent.
    The Nazi Party had agency and were permitted to Will the murder of millions.
    Vermin minded their own business.
    I’ll never insult vermin again by comparing them to Nazis or Republicans.
    Anne Frank, a beautiful human soul, was murdered by human beings, not by vermin. In fact, the vermin, morally neutral mice, cockroaches, and creepy-crawlies, who happened to find shelter in the walls and under the floorboards at Prinsengracht 263 in Amsterdam, had this one and only thing in common with their human tenants:
    Both were hiding from their doom at the hands of the Nazis and Hitler.
    I now go dark, and I don’t mean the app for darkness.
    I’m going to go darker than the descending darkness.
    Also, what Pro Bono said.
    And Pro Cher and Pro The Edge.

  9. Except for this:
    “Does it matter if these results are a day late?”:
    Yes, it does.
    I can write the White House and RNC ad copy.
    “Do you want these people to write the app for Medicare-For-All?”

  10. Except for this:
    “Does it matter if these results are a day late?”:
    Yes, it does.
    I can write the White House and RNC ad copy.
    “Do you want these people to write the app for Medicare-For-All?”

  11. Paper ballots. Fuck technology
    This.
    Caucuses are some weird mash-up of PTA meeting and Yankee Swap. And now they have an app, because god forbid we do anything without an app.
    Iowa has to go first, because reasons. Then New Hampshire, also because reasons, and they are really first if you ask them, because that’s a primary not a caucus.
    We love this quaint small town Norman Rockwell kitsch.
    We have a 2 year horse race, complete with bookies, for a 4 year position. We spend over a billion dollars on it. The final result is determined by a process where votes are basically rounded up at the state level, with a little two-vote bump for each state so WY and RI don’t feel left out.
    Dysfunction is baked in.
    As far as outcomes, the difference between any two (D) candidates pales in comparison to any one of them and Trump.
    Ham sandwich.

  12. Paper ballots. Fuck technology
    This.
    Caucuses are some weird mash-up of PTA meeting and Yankee Swap. And now they have an app, because god forbid we do anything without an app.
    Iowa has to go first, because reasons. Then New Hampshire, also because reasons, and they are really first if you ask them, because that’s a primary not a caucus.
    We love this quaint small town Norman Rockwell kitsch.
    We have a 2 year horse race, complete with bookies, for a 4 year position. We spend over a billion dollars on it. The final result is determined by a process where votes are basically rounded up at the state level, with a little two-vote bump for each state so WY and RI don’t feel left out.
    Dysfunction is baked in.
    As far as outcomes, the difference between any two (D) candidates pales in comparison to any one of them and Trump.
    Ham sandwich.

  13. I’m going to go darker than the descending darkness.
    “Oh, and one more thing. You aren’t going to like what comes next after America.”
    Leonard Cohen
    I don’t see it as “what comes next after America”, I see it as “what America looks like after it turns rancid”.
    Same place, same people. Just gone bad.

  14. I’m going to go darker than the descending darkness.
    “Oh, and one more thing. You aren’t going to like what comes next after America.”
    Leonard Cohen
    I don’t see it as “what comes next after America”, I see it as “what America looks like after it turns rancid”.
    Same place, same people. Just gone bad.

  17. As far as outcomes, the difference between any two (D) candidates pales in comparison to any one of them and Trump.
    Let’s hope this time we don’t have sore losers staying home and letting Trump win again.

  18. As far as outcomes, the difference between any two (D) candidates pales in comparison to any one of them and Trump.
    Let’s hope this time we don’t have sore losers staying home and letting Trump win again.

  21. Do you want these people to write the app for Medicare-For-All
    Indeed… but the Iowa Democratic party is not running for president.

  22. Do you want these people to write the app for Medicare-For-All
    Indeed… but the Iowa Democratic party is not running for president.

  27. Do you want these people to write the app for Medicare-For-All
    Look for this to be embroidered with references to the messy rollout of Obamacare. Perhaps you folks who have actual IT experience should be offering your services to the candidate of your choice. Not for designing actual applications. But for designing the testing processes.
    (Lucky me. I don’t face that “opportunity”, since the chances of a Republican sponsored technology creation look nil. Certainly not one that gets far enough along to test.)

  28. Do you want these people to write the app for Medicare-For-All
    Look for this to be embroidered with references to the messy rollout of Obamacare. Perhaps you folks who have actual IT experience should be offering your services to the candidate of your choice. Not for designing actual applications. But for designing the testing processes.
    (Lucky me. I don’t face that “opportunity”, since the chances of a Republican sponsored technology creation look nil. Certainly not one that gets far enough along to test.)

  29. When I read that they had gone with an app, I thought that serves you right. OF COURSE and app will fuck everything up!

  30. When I read that they had gone with an app, I thought that serves you right. OF COURSE and app will fuck everything up!

  31. I made the mistake of reading some Bernie supporter posts on Facebook. All oout conspiracy theories. Did you know that the app was made by a secret network of HRC supporters to rig the caucus against Bernie? god those people are as stupid and Trumper. And Bernie is the likely winner but that won’tslow them down a bit in their paranoia.

  32. I made the mistake of reading some Bernie supporter posts on Facebook. All oout conspiracy theories. Did you know that the app was made by a secret network of HRC supporters to rig the caucus against Bernie? god those people are as stupid and Trumper. And Bernie is the likely winner but that won’tslow them down a bit in their paranoia.

  33. What appears to happen with true believers is that they have trouble (actually, totally cannot manage) wrapping their heads around the fact that most people don’t believe the same as they do. The only way to fit that to the reality that things are not running in accord with their beliefs is to assume that someone is rigging the world. Since one person obviously isn’t enough to be doing so (well, maybe George Soros, for some), it must be a conspiracy of some kind. And, since there isn’t much (any?) real evidence, it must be a secret conspiracy.
    Of course, to those who are not in their particular belief bubble, their conspiracies look totally daft. Because, necessarily, they are.
    Not to say that there are not attempts to conspire to rig things. Just that mostly they, too, fail. Occasionally, someone will manage to pull off a secret conspiracy — at least temporarily. But it is very much the exception.

  34. What appears to happen with true believers is that they have trouble (actually, totally cannot manage) wrapping their heads around the fact that most people don’t believe the same as they do. The only way to fit that to the reality that things are not running in accord with their beliefs is to assume that someone is rigging the world. Since one person obviously isn’t enough to be doing so (well, maybe George Soros, for some), it must be a conspiracy of some kind. And, since there isn’t much (any?) real evidence, it must be a secret conspiracy.
    Of course, to those who are not in their particular belief bubble, their conspiracies look totally daft. Because, necessarily, they are.
    Not to say that there are not attempts to conspire to rig things. Just that mostly they, too, fail. Occasionally, someone will manage to pull off a secret conspiracy — at least temporarily. But it is very much the exception.

  37. But are they uniquely American? (I tend to be wary of claims of American exceptionalism without evidence from elsewhere.)

  38. But are they uniquely American? (I tend to be wary of claims of American exceptionalism without evidence from elsewhere.)

  41. Yes wj, that’s exactly the problem. And they cannot grasp the concept that any one else might have a legitimate point of view, so they are routinely rude. and if anyone shoots back at them they ar immediately martyred victims. I caucused for Bernie last time around ang got really tired of the other Berners. But I never was a true believe. I just thought it wa not smart to choose the candidate with the fifty percent disapproval rating.

  42. Yes wj, that’s exactly the problem. And they cannot grasp the concept that any one else might have a legitimate point of view, so they are routinely rude. and if anyone shoots back at them they ar immediately martyred victims. I caucused for Bernie last time around ang got really tired of the other Berners. But I never was a true believe. I just thought it wa not smart to choose the candidate with the fifty percent disapproval rating.

  43. https://seekingalpha.com/news/3538280-fda-oks-emergency-use-of-coronavirus-test
    The most terrifying words in the English language:
    “Government develops emergency coronavirus test to help you.”
    Conservative asshole: “No thanks, the coronavirus goes good with my measles.”
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-had-goddamn-fucking-meltdown-over-staff-refusing-to-release-his-two-page-pro-birther-screed?via=newsletter&source=CSAMedition
    Think if Barack Obama was a violent man, like John Brown, how much better off we would be today.
    I wonder how many times the word “nigger” has been uttered in the White House since January 2017, when the racists started using the slipcovers as toilet paper?
    “Shh, keep it down, here comes Ben Carson.”

  44. https://seekingalpha.com/news/3538280-fda-oks-emergency-use-of-coronavirus-test
    The most terrifying words in the English language:
    “Government develops emergency coronavirus test to help you.”
    Conservative asshole: “No thanks, the coronavirus goes good with my measles.”
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-had-goddamn-fucking-meltdown-over-staff-refusing-to-release-his-two-page-pro-birther-screed?via=newsletter&source=CSAMedition
    Think if Barack Obama was a violent man, like John Brown, how much better off we would be today.
    I wonder how many times the word “nigger” has been uttered in the White House since January 2017, when the racists started using the slipcovers as toilet paper?
    “Shh, keep it down, here comes Ben Carson.”

  47. they cannot grasp the concept that any one else might have a legitimate point of view
    Actually, wonkie, I don’t think that’s quite it. I think they can’t grasp that anyone could honestly hold beliefs that are different from their own. Because their own are so obviously (to them) true and correct. It’s not that they don’t think other views are legitimate, so much. It’s that they can’t conceive of someone seeing the world differently.
    In short, it’s ethnocentricism (which I suspect you’ve heard of) taken to an extreme. Generally without the ethnic part — except as a secondary feature.

  48. they cannot grasp the concept that any one else might have a legitimate point of view
    Actually, wonkie, I don’t think that’s quite it. I think they can’t grasp that anyone could honestly hold beliefs that are different from their own. Because their own are so obviously (to them) true and correct. It’s not that they don’t think other views are legitimate, so much. It’s that they can’t conceive of someone seeing the world differently.
    In short, it’s ethnocentricism (which I suspect you’ve heard of) taken to an extreme. Generally without the ethnic part — except as a secondary feature.

  49. Nate Silver seems to think a day late will have an impact in favor of Biden and against Sanders. That will make the conspiracy theories go away.

  50. Nate Silver seems to think a day late will have an impact in favor of Biden and against Sanders. That will make the conspiracy theories go away.

  51. Results!
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/iowa-caucuses-2020-live-updates/2020/02/04/23561bd6-4707-11ea-bc78-8a18f7afcee7_story.html
    The headline: “With 62 percent of votes counted, Sanders held a lead in overall votes [26% of the votes] while Buttigieg [with 25% of the votes] led among a measure of state delegates.” And Biden down around 13%.
    Now that’s going to upend a lot of calculations about the race. If it holds up, of course. Maybe Buttigieg, rather than Biden, is going to end up with the “electability” voters.

  52. Results!
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/iowa-caucuses-2020-live-updates/2020/02/04/23561bd6-4707-11ea-bc78-8a18f7afcee7_story.html
    The headline: “With 62 percent of votes counted, Sanders held a lead in overall votes [26% of the votes] while Buttigieg [with 25% of the votes] led among a measure of state delegates.” And Biden down around 13%.
    Now that’s going to upend a lot of calculations about the race. If it holds up, of course. Maybe Buttigieg, rather than Biden, is going to end up with the “electability” voters.

  53. “Jesse Walker’s The United States of Paranoia presents a comprehensive history of conspiracy theories in American culture and politics, from the colonial era to the War on Terror.
    The fear of intrigue and subversion doesn’t exist only on the fringes of society but has always been part of our national identity. When such tales take hold, Walker argues, they reflect the anxieties and experiences of the people who believe them, even if they say nothing true about the objects of the theories themselves.”
    The United States of Paranoia: A Conspiracy Theory

  54. “Jesse Walker’s The United States of Paranoia presents a comprehensive history of conspiracy theories in American culture and politics, from the colonial era to the War on Terror.
    The fear of intrigue and subversion doesn’t exist only on the fringes of society but has always been part of our national identity. When such tales take hold, Walker argues, they reflect the anxieties and experiences of the people who believe them, even if they say nothing true about the objects of the theories themselves.”
    The United States of Paranoia: A Conspiracy Theory

  55. Maybe Buttigieg, rather than Biden, is going to end up with the “electability” voters.
    Biden got around 13% of the popular vote.
    I think that fatally wounds his inevitability argument.
    It wouldn’t be so bad had he not been favourite to win Iowa for a long while – and when even the BBC are commenting on his wooden stump performances, there’s a real problem.
    He missed (or was talked out of) his chance four years ago.

  56. Maybe Buttigieg, rather than Biden, is going to end up with the “electability” voters.
    Biden got around 13% of the popular vote.
    I think that fatally wounds his inevitability argument.
    It wouldn’t be so bad had he not been favourite to win Iowa for a long while – and when even the BBC are commenting on his wooden stump performances, there’s a real problem.
    He missed (or was talked out of) his chance four years ago.

  57. Ages 73, 78, 77, 77.
    Political platforms aside, this is madness.
    Are the candidates getting donations from Kimberly-Clark(Depend®)?…

  58. Ages 73, 78, 77, 77.
    Political platforms aside, this is madness.
    Are the candidates getting donations from Kimberly-Clark(Depend®)?…

  61. about electability voters. electable means more likely to win the nation election not the primary. the national has a wider draw. biden may be the most electable nationally even if not in the [rimaries
    I actally think trump is gpomg to win

  62. about electability voters. electable means more likely to win the nation election not the primary. the national has a wider draw. biden may be the most electable nationally even if not in the [rimaries
    I actally think trump is gpomg to win

  63. Maybe that’s why the guy who’s 38 is doing so well…?
    it’s really pretty amazing how much the online left hates Pete. like, they really despise him.

  64. Maybe that’s why the guy who’s 38 is doing so well…?
    it’s really pretty amazing how much the online left hates Pete. like, they really despise him.

  69. bobbyp, I get that you are massively offended. But not entirely clear why. It was a snarky comment, nothing more. Not intended to be any more offensive than any other snark.

  70. bobbyp, I get that you are massively offended. But not entirely clear why. It was a snarky comment, nothing more. Not intended to be any more offensive than any other snark.

  71. it’s really pretty amazing how much the online left hates Pete. like, they really despise him.
    I think people might be able to circle the wagons around him though in the end. He’s not my favorite candidate, and I probably won’t be voting for him in my March primary, but I could love a young, brilliant Democrat, who has served in the military (yes, that requires a bit of wherewithal, especially for someone who has so many other talents up his sleeve), who has been an out gay mayor in a red state.
    Why not? Is he going to support land mines? Is he going to be building a wall? Is he going to be pardoning war criminals? On the positive side, is he going to be supporting human rights? Universal health care to the extent possible? Any attempt at all to be humane and democratic?
    I’m for him if he gets nominated.

  72. it’s really pretty amazing how much the online left hates Pete. like, they really despise him.
    I think people might be able to circle the wagons around him though in the end. He’s not my favorite candidate, and I probably won’t be voting for him in my March primary, but I could love a young, brilliant Democrat, who has served in the military (yes, that requires a bit of wherewithal, especially for someone who has so many other talents up his sleeve), who has been an out gay mayor in a red state.
    Why not? Is he going to support land mines? Is he going to be building a wall? Is he going to be pardoning war criminals? On the positive side, is he going to be supporting human rights? Universal health care to the extent possible? Any attempt at all to be humane and democratic?
    I’m for him if he gets nominated.

  75. bobbyp, I get that you are massively offended. But not entirely clear why.
    Well, as I read your “snark” you seem to be implying that the progressive left, however defined, despite its long history of supporting LBGT rights well ahead of “the consensus” (I’m looking at you, BHObama) is actually homophobic (closet or otherwise).
    But I may have misread here…so please do flesh this out.
    With all due respect.

  76. bobbyp, I get that you are massively offended. But not entirely clear why.
    Well, as I read your “snark” you seem to be implying that the progressive left, however defined, despite its long history of supporting LBGT rights well ahead of “the consensus” (I’m looking at you, BHObama) is actually homophobic (closet or otherwise).
    But I may have misread here…so please do flesh this out.
    With all due respect.

  77. I’m for him if he gets nominated.
    OK. I’m in. I’d even hold my diapers and vote for Bloomberg or Styer if they buy the nomination. This is a strategic calculation that is fairly obvious.
    I only ask for the same commitment from you if Sanders is the nominee, OK? So, let’s hear it. Now.
    Thanks.

  78. I’m for him if he gets nominated.
    OK. I’m in. I’d even hold my diapers and vote for Bloomberg or Styer if they buy the nomination. This is a strategic calculation that is fairly obvious.
    I only ask for the same commitment from you if Sanders is the nominee, OK? So, let’s hear it. Now.
    Thanks.

  79. But I may have misread here…so please do flesh this out.
    My sense (which may be wrong, of course) is that any time someone outside the progressive left makes a negative comment about someone who happens to be gay, the “progressive left” immediately diagnoses homophobia as the one and only reason. Even if the person making the comment has personally been supportive of gay rights.
    Feels different when the same shoe’s on the other foot, doesn’t it? (And the “/snark” attempts to make clear that I don’t think it’s any more accurate in this case.)
    Does that help?

  80. But I may have misread here…so please do flesh this out.
    My sense (which may be wrong, of course) is that any time someone outside the progressive left makes a negative comment about someone who happens to be gay, the “progressive left” immediately diagnoses homophobia as the one and only reason. Even if the person making the comment has personally been supportive of gay rights.
    Feels different when the same shoe’s on the other foot, doesn’t it? (And the “/snark” attempts to make clear that I don’t think it’s any more accurate in this case.)
    Does that help?

  81. I only ask for the same commitment from you if Sanders is the nominee, OK? So, let’s hear it.
    For my part, any of the 20 or so folks who made any pretense of running (yes, even Gabbard, if a brokered convention went that way) is preferable to Trump. Heck, even Pence would be better than Trump, and that’s going really low — not that he’s an option, of course.

  82. I only ask for the same commitment from you if Sanders is the nominee, OK? So, let’s hear it.
    For my part, any of the 20 or so folks who made any pretense of running (yes, even Gabbard, if a brokered convention went that way) is preferable to Trump. Heck, even Pence would be better than Trump, and that’s going really low — not that he’s an option, of course.

  83. Good for Pelosi.
    The spectacle of this president’s supporters and enablers going on about decorum is not edifying.

  84. Good for Pelosi.
    The spectacle of this president’s supporters and enablers going on about decorum is not edifying.

  85. My sense (which may be wrong, of course) is that any time someone outside the progressive left makes a negative comment about someone who happens to be gay, the “progressive left” immediately diagnoses homophobia as the one and only reason.”
    Well, as a commie pinko SDS’er Wobbly going on 50 years I can only assert, yes, that is wrong. This is broad brushing, so I would request you provide, you know, actual examples of this egregious behavior. Then we can judge instances as they arise.
    Not to say that broad brushing is never the right thing to do, but I ask only for fair and reasonable balance. So when you broad brush all Republicans as socialist hating fascist thugs, well, I’ll let this go.
    (aside: I shall give you some help here: My biggest problem with radical pinko commies is not communism per se, but self identified communists. If you had ever met a real dyed in the wool Trotskyite you would know what I am saying, but I’m sure you know “real” Republicans, so there you go.)
    I opine this is a fair and reasonable balance, and exemplifies “both siderism” at its finest, aka, “youfirstism”.
    Thanks.

  86. My sense (which may be wrong, of course) is that any time someone outside the progressive left makes a negative comment about someone who happens to be gay, the “progressive left” immediately diagnoses homophobia as the one and only reason.”
    Well, as a commie pinko SDS’er Wobbly going on 50 years I can only assert, yes, that is wrong. This is broad brushing, so I would request you provide, you know, actual examples of this egregious behavior. Then we can judge instances as they arise.
    Not to say that broad brushing is never the right thing to do, but I ask only for fair and reasonable balance. So when you broad brush all Republicans as socialist hating fascist thugs, well, I’ll let this go.
    (aside: I shall give you some help here: My biggest problem with radical pinko commies is not communism per se, but self identified communists. If you had ever met a real dyed in the wool Trotskyite you would know what I am saying, but I’m sure you know “real” Republicans, so there you go.)
    I opine this is a fair and reasonable balance, and exemplifies “both siderism” at its finest, aka, “youfirstism”.
    Thanks.

  87. Well, at least with Pence we could expect the catastrophic results to be intentional (not collateral). Unlike Jabbabonk he’s a true believer and seems to possess basic competence in governing (the technical aspects).

  88. Well, at least with Pence we could expect the catastrophic results to be intentional (not collateral). Unlike Jabbabonk he’s a true believer and seems to possess basic competence in governing (the technical aspects).

  89. For my part….
    Would you go into the voting both and pull the lever for any of them if that was your choice? Trump or “Dem X”?
    That is where the rubber meets the road.

  90. For my part….
    Would you go into the voting both and pull the lever for any of them if that was your choice? Trump or “Dem X”?
    That is where the rubber meets the road.

  91. Good for Pelosi.
    She should have spit in his general direction and stalked off. Her restraint was admirable.
    Trump is a fucking pig.

  92. Good for Pelosi.
    She should have spit in his general direction and stalked off. Her restraint was admirable.
    Trump is a fucking pig.

  93. If you had ever met a real dyed in the wool Trotskyite you would know what I am saying
    As it happens, I have known a real dyed-in-the-wool Trotskyite. More than one, actually. I was at Berkeley in the late 1960s, so I had that rare opportunity. Not that it was a connection that I cultivated.
    As for your proposed “balance”, I would note that I didn’t accuse (even in jest) all members of the progressive left. And I likewise cannot say all Republicans are “socialist hating fascist thugs” — though certainly a depressingly large number are. (Not that most of those have a clue what a socialist really believes.)

  94. If you had ever met a real dyed in the wool Trotskyite you would know what I am saying
    As it happens, I have known a real dyed-in-the-wool Trotskyite. More than one, actually. I was at Berkeley in the late 1960s, so I had that rare opportunity. Not that it was a connection that I cultivated.
    As for your proposed “balance”, I would note that I didn’t accuse (even in jest) all members of the progressive left. And I likewise cannot say all Republicans are “socialist hating fascist thugs” — though certainly a depressingly large number are. (Not that most of those have a clue what a socialist really believes.)

  95. Would you go into the voting both and pull the lever for any of them if that was your choice? Trump or “Dem X”?
    In a heartbeat.
    Granted, being in California it won’t impact the results in November. But still, for anyone who honestly cares about this country it’s the right thing to do.

  96. Would you go into the voting both and pull the lever for any of them if that was your choice? Trump or “Dem X”?
    In a heartbeat.
    Granted, being in California it won’t impact the results in November. But still, for anyone who honestly cares about this country it’s the right thing to do.

  97. I only ask for the same commitment from you if Sanders is the nominee, OK? So, let’s hear it. Now.
    Commitment provided. I’m in for Sanders if he wins the nomination. For the most part, I don’t disagree with Sanders’s rhetoric. I question his policy chops, am suspicious of his supporters, think that he was given a pass where he didn’t deserve it, and believe that he hasn’t helped Democrats win, which means that he has helped them lose. But since I don’t demand perfection, I’ll vote for him if he’s nominated.

  98. I only ask for the same commitment from you if Sanders is the nominee, OK? So, let’s hear it. Now.
    Commitment provided. I’m in for Sanders if he wins the nomination. For the most part, I don’t disagree with Sanders’s rhetoric. I question his policy chops, am suspicious of his supporters, think that he was given a pass where he didn’t deserve it, and believe that he hasn’t helped Democrats win, which means that he has helped them lose. But since I don’t demand perfection, I’ll vote for him if he’s nominated.

  99. I only ask for the same commitment from you if Sanders is the nominee, OK?
    I’m in.
    I for one welcome our Dem X overlord.

  100. I only ask for the same commitment from you if Sanders is the nominee, OK?
    I’m in.
    I for one welcome our Dem X overlord.

  101. this seems about right.
    I’m sure it’s a sign of me getting old, but it seems like nobody has any freaking basic common sense anymore.

  102. this seems about right.
    I’m sure it’s a sign of me getting old, but it seems like nobody has any freaking basic common sense anymore.

  103. “I’m sure it’s a sign of me getting old, but it seems like nobody has any freaking basic common sense anymore. ”
    The phenomenon strikes me as a sign of fin de siecle: when an economy manufactures nothing of actual value, and the people who make out like bandits are the ones who degrade value for their own (enormous) profit.
    The US has spent a good few decades eating its seed corn: cannibalizing companies, destroying economic mobility and financial security for everyone but the top 10%, letting infrastructure rot, monetizing things which should not be monetized.
    Now we’re out of seed corn.

  104. “I’m sure it’s a sign of me getting old, but it seems like nobody has any freaking basic common sense anymore. ”
    The phenomenon strikes me as a sign of fin de siecle: when an economy manufactures nothing of actual value, and the people who make out like bandits are the ones who degrade value for their own (enormous) profit.
    The US has spent a good few decades eating its seed corn: cannibalizing companies, destroying economic mobility and financial security for everyone but the top 10%, letting infrastructure rot, monetizing things which should not be monetized.
    Now we’re out of seed corn.

  105. bobbyp: This is why people resent Bernie. Also see the supportive comments to this tweet.
    No doubt all of the candidates have a certain number of annoying supporters, but the intensity of the stupid among certain facets of Bernie’s fan base reflects on the candidate himself. Maybe it shouldn’t.
    This doesn’t change the fact that I’ll support him if he’s nominated, but it certainly doesn’t encourage me to support him in advance of that.

  106. bobbyp: This is why people resent Bernie. Also see the supportive comments to this tweet.
    No doubt all of the candidates have a certain number of annoying supporters, but the intensity of the stupid among certain facets of Bernie’s fan base reflects on the candidate himself. Maybe it shouldn’t.
    This doesn’t change the fact that I’ll support him if he’s nominated, but it certainly doesn’t encourage me to support him in advance of that.

  107. what sapient said.
    if he’s fine with the poisonous idiocy of so many of his most-vocal supporters (including those in his direct employ) he’ll be a terrible candidate and a worse President.
    if he’s so clueless that he doesn’t see it he’ll be a terrible candidate and a worse President.
    i’ll vote for him if i have to, but it will require me to ignore the shrieking awfulness of the people who put him in that spot.

  108. what sapient said.
    if he’s fine with the poisonous idiocy of so many of his most-vocal supporters (including those in his direct employ) he’ll be a terrible candidate and a worse President.
    if he’s so clueless that he doesn’t see it he’ll be a terrible candidate and a worse President.
    i’ll vote for him if i have to, but it will require me to ignore the shrieking awfulness of the people who put him in that spot.

  109. sapient,
    that cuts both ways. not sure why you obsess about it so.
    Now we’re out of seed corn.
    you may well be correct, CaseyL. All empires fall eventually.
    As it happens, I have known a real dyed-in-the-wool Trotskyite.
    LOL…i forgot about your experiences at berkeley. everybody should have at least one encounter with the phenomenon of the ideologically obsessed left wing hair splitter. I think it’s something marxists picked up from the protestants.

  110. sapient,
    that cuts both ways. not sure why you obsess about it so.
    Now we’re out of seed corn.
    you may well be correct, CaseyL. All empires fall eventually.
    As it happens, I have known a real dyed-in-the-wool Trotskyite.
    LOL…i forgot about your experiences at berkeley. everybody should have at least one encounter with the phenomenon of the ideologically obsessed left wing hair splitter. I think it’s something marxists picked up from the protestants.

  111. not sure why you obsess about it so.
    Well, I found the tweet through Hilzoy’s twitter feed. Perhaps she can explain it better. I would suggest following.

  112. not sure why you obsess about it so.
    Well, I found the tweet through Hilzoy’s twitter feed. Perhaps she can explain it better. I would suggest following.

  115. “Have you ever noticed how all composite pictures of wanted criminals resemble Jesse Jackson?”
    Medull of Freedumb
    fuck. the. G.O.P..

  116. “Have you ever noticed how all composite pictures of wanted criminals resemble Jesse Jackson?”
    Medull of Freedumb
    fuck. the. G.O.P..

  117. “You just gotta be who you are, and I think it’s time to get rid of this whole National Basketball Association. Call it the TBA, the Thug Basketball Association, and stop calling them teams. Call ’em gangs.”
    Medull of Freedumb
    fuck. the. G.O.P..

  118. “You just gotta be who you are, and I think it’s time to get rid of this whole National Basketball Association. Call it the TBA, the Thug Basketball Association, and stop calling them teams. Call ’em gangs.”
    Medull of Freedumb
    fuck. the. G.O.P..

  119. “Citizen service is a repudiation of the principles upon which our country was based. We are all here for ourselves.”
    Medull of Freedumb
    fuck. the. G.O.P..

  120. “Citizen service is a repudiation of the principles upon which our country was based. We are all here for ourselves.”
    Medull of Freedumb
    fuck. the. G.O.P..

  121. “When a gay person turns his back on you, it is anything but an insult; it’s an invitation.”
    Medull of Freedumb
    fuck. the. G.O.P..

  122. “When a gay person turns his back on you, it is anything but an insult; it’s an invitation.”
    Medull of Freedumb
    fuck. the. G.O.P..

  125. I didn’t like the Menaker thread because it is frivolous. Facts are more interesting than the usual blather about who you will vote for. I will vote for the lesser evil (which is the Democrat no matter who it is), but if someone wants to argue that Democrats are so terrible they don’t deserve a vote, then at least make the argument as to why. But better yet, stop talking about yourself and your vote and talk about issues, corruption, etc…
    So here are the sorts of leftist twitter threads and comments I do find interesting. First, why Tom Perez sucks.
    More later.
    https://twitter.com/kgosztola/status/1221167638254161920

  126. I didn’t like the Menaker thread because it is frivolous. Facts are more interesting than the usual blather about who you will vote for. I will vote for the lesser evil (which is the Democrat no matter who it is), but if someone wants to argue that Democrats are so terrible they don’t deserve a vote, then at least make the argument as to why. But better yet, stop talking about yourself and your vote and talk about issues, corruption, etc…
    So here are the sorts of leftist twitter threads and comments I do find interesting. First, why Tom Perez sucks.
    More later.
    https://twitter.com/kgosztola/status/1221167638254161920

  127. Medull of Freedumb
    I was taken with Chait’s comment: “Trump himself has a record of racism so long and flagrant . . . that he makes Limbaugh look like Martin Luther King Jr.”
    The wonder to me is that it took Trump so long to get around to this.

  128. Medull of Freedumb
    I was taken with Chait’s comment: “Trump himself has a record of racism so long and flagrant . . . that he makes Limbaugh look like Martin Luther King Jr.”
    The wonder to me is that it took Trump so long to get around to this.

  129. “Sandra Fluke is a slut and a prostitute.”
    Medull of Freedumb
    fuck. the. G.O.P.
    Mr Guttenberg apologized to the murderers of his daughter in the midst of their orgasms over guns, while the Medal of Freedom was awarded to a steaming pile of dog shit.
    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fred-guttenberg-father-parkland-shooting-victim-escorted-gallery/story?id=68765919
    fuck. the. G.O.P.
    This guy no longer protects us:
    https://juanitajean.com/because-he-snorkeled-once/
    …while cold-blooded murderers are pardoned and await their next orders from the GOP to murder again, next time right here in America.
    fuck. the. G.O.P.
    Republicans and conservatives are the enemies of America and the human race, while vermin continue to climb in the esteem of decent human beings.

  130. “Sandra Fluke is a slut and a prostitute.”
    Medull of Freedumb
    fuck. the. G.O.P.
    Mr Guttenberg apologized to the murderers of his daughter in the midst of their orgasms over guns, while the Medal of Freedom was awarded to a steaming pile of dog shit.
    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fred-guttenberg-father-parkland-shooting-victim-escorted-gallery/story?id=68765919
    fuck. the. G.O.P.
    This guy no longer protects us:
    https://juanitajean.com/because-he-snorkeled-once/
    …while cold-blooded murderers are pardoned and await their next orders from the GOP to murder again, next time right here in America.
    fuck. the. G.O.P.
    Republicans and conservatives are the enemies of America and the human race, while vermin continue to climb in the esteem of decent human beings.

  131. Maybe because Limbaugh now cannot draw the spotlight away from Jabbabonk anymore.
    What’s the bet that that murderous, sadist digestive rear exit of a SEAL Jabbabonk prevented the military to get rid off will get his MoF before this year is over?
    The next Dem POTUS should seriously consider to discontinue the medal together with a very public announcement that in his/her opinion the award practices of certain of his/her predecessors have stained and besmirched its reputation to a degree beyond redemption and turned the award into a mockery.
    Awarding one to the pardoned thanksgiving turkeys to make a point may be a step too far though.

  132. Maybe because Limbaugh now cannot draw the spotlight away from Jabbabonk anymore.
    What’s the bet that that murderous, sadist digestive rear exit of a SEAL Jabbabonk prevented the military to get rid off will get his MoF before this year is over?
    The next Dem POTUS should seriously consider to discontinue the medal together with a very public announcement that in his/her opinion the award practices of certain of his/her predecessors have stained and besmirched its reputation to a degree beyond redemption and turned the award into a mockery.
    Awarding one to the pardoned thanksgiving turkeys to make a point may be a step too far though.

  135. The steaming pile of dog shit (the new host of killer metastasizing cancer cells) hates all forms of birth control, including condoms, while the steaming pile of dog shit’s mother regrets daily that the steaming pile of dog shit’s father didn’t pull out on time.
    Dog Shit Senior must have been a liar too.

  136. The steaming pile of dog shit (the new host of killer metastasizing cancer cells) hates all forms of birth control, including condoms, while the steaming pile of dog shit’s mother regrets daily that the steaming pile of dog shit’s father didn’t pull out on time.
    Dog Shit Senior must have been a liar too.

  137. …have stained and besmirched its reputation to a degree beyond redemption and turned the award into a mockery.
    Sort of like the Nobel Peace Price.

  138. …have stained and besmirched its reputation to a degree beyond redemption and turned the award into a mockery.
    Sort of like the Nobel Peace Price.

  139. Just want to say that CaseyL at 9:09 makes a great deal of sense to me.
    My impression of “Bernie or die” folks is that they are people who think the whole enchilada is broken, so if it’s not Bernie they’re not interested. TBH, no small number of them will vote for Trump if Bernie does not get the nod, so I don’t necessarily mind if they just stay home instead.
    As far as Rush and the medal of freedom, it’s not worth my while to get angry or upset. Trump is going to disgrace everything he touches. I accept that as a reality. It makes him happy to piss off People Like Me, and that’s a game I refuse to play.
    Give the man as little room in your head as you can. That’s my advice, and it’s worth every penny you paid for it. 🙂
    CaseyL at 9:09, y’all.

  140. Just want to say that CaseyL at 9:09 makes a great deal of sense to me.
    My impression of “Bernie or die” folks is that they are people who think the whole enchilada is broken, so if it’s not Bernie they’re not interested. TBH, no small number of them will vote for Trump if Bernie does not get the nod, so I don’t necessarily mind if they just stay home instead.
    As far as Rush and the medal of freedom, it’s not worth my while to get angry or upset. Trump is going to disgrace everything he touches. I accept that as a reality. It makes him happy to piss off People Like Me, and that’s a game I refuse to play.
    Give the man as little room in your head as you can. That’s my advice, and it’s worth every penny you paid for it. 🙂
    CaseyL at 9:09, y’all.

  145. CharlesWT, I actually expected that answer from someone (not necessarily you) and it is imo not fully unjustified (although we may differ on the specific misjudgements and their gravity).
    Imo there were cases of both ‘not fully worthy of it’ and ‘should rather rot in jail instead’.
    An interesting case is Churchill getting the Nobel for literature (his political deeds cover the whole span from praiseworthy to despicable).

  146. CharlesWT, I actually expected that answer from someone (not necessarily you) and it is imo not fully unjustified (although we may differ on the specific misjudgements and their gravity).
    Imo there were cases of both ‘not fully worthy of it’ and ‘should rather rot in jail instead’.
    An interesting case is Churchill getting the Nobel for literature (his political deeds cover the whole span from praiseworthy to despicable).

  149. They will expunge trump’s impeachment from the books
    Since the whole process is part of the public record at this point, this seems like an exercise in futile wankery.

  150. They will expunge trump’s impeachment from the books
    Since the whole process is part of the public record at this point, this seems like an exercise in futile wankery.

  159. They will expunge trump’s impeachment from the books
    My distinct impression is that you only expunge records of people who have been convicted of something.** And it only clears the legal record (i.e. they are no longer officially a “convicted felon”).
    But there is no way to “expunge” anything from the historical record. Of course, not sure why people who deny facts day-to-day would care about a historical record anyway….
    ** But maybe McCarthy knows something we don’t…?

  160. They will expunge trump’s impeachment from the books
    My distinct impression is that you only expunge records of people who have been convicted of something.** And it only clears the legal record (i.e. they are no longer officially a “convicted felon”).
    But there is no way to “expunge” anything from the historical record. Of course, not sure why people who deny facts day-to-day would care about a historical record anyway….
    ** But maybe McCarthy knows something we don’t…?

  161. Good for Romney.
    Now if only Collins et al. would decide that Trump saying that he was not chastened at all means that they should vote to convict after all. Pity they won’t. It would be so nice if a majority voted to convict. Even if it wouldn’t be enough to get him booted out of office, as he so richly deserves.

  162. Good for Romney.
    Now if only Collins et al. would decide that Trump saying that he was not chastened at all means that they should vote to convict after all. Pity they won’t. It would be so nice if a majority voted to convict. Even if it wouldn’t be enough to get him booted out of office, as he so richly deserves.

  163. On the first charge, votes for guilty representing both major parties and independents. Votes for not guilty from Republicans only.

  164. On the first charge, votes for guilty representing both major parties and independents. Votes for not guilty from Republicans only.

  167. wank
    /waNGk/
    Learn to pronounce
    VULGAR SLANG•BRITISH
    verb
    gerund or present participle: wanking
    (typically used of a man) masturbate.
    masturbate oneself or SOMEONE ELSE.
    From Nigel’s link, Murkowski wanking SOMEONE ELSE, but sadly:
    “It is important not to “disenfranchise nearly 63 million Americans and remove him from the ballot”
    That’s one hell of a circle jerk bukkake the ladies … Murkowski and Collins … have going for themselves.

  168. wank
    /waNGk/
    Learn to pronounce
    VULGAR SLANG•BRITISH
    verb
    gerund or present participle: wanking
    (typically used of a man) masturbate.
    masturbate oneself or SOMEONE ELSE.
    From Nigel’s link, Murkowski wanking SOMEONE ELSE, but sadly:
    “It is important not to “disenfranchise nearly 63 million Americans and remove him from the ballot”
    That’s one hell of a circle jerk bukkake the ladies … Murkowski and Collins … have going for themselves.

  171. ‘Cos airbrushing history has such admirable antecedents….
    They can try it on, but I don’t think their airbrush is big enough to cover this much stink.
    Good for Romney.
    Not least because he just put himself on the sh*t list of a world-historical petty and vindictive SOB. He and probably his family are going to go through some things. And, he knows that and understands what that is probably going to look like in Trump world.
    An honest to god principled stand. And god knows we don’t see many of them. Make a note of it, if you have kids tell them about it so they understand what it is.

  172. ‘Cos airbrushing history has such admirable antecedents….
    They can try it on, but I don’t think their airbrush is big enough to cover this much stink.
    Good for Romney.
    Not least because he just put himself on the sh*t list of a world-historical petty and vindictive SOB. He and probably his family are going to go through some things. And, he knows that and understands what that is probably going to look like in Trump world.
    An honest to god principled stand. And god knows we don’t see many of them. Make a note of it, if you have kids tell them about it so they understand what it is.

  175. What disturbs me most about the Iowa app mess is that apparently the contract to develop the app was awarded on some kind of crony basis.
    I may be overgeneralizing, but if that’s the way the Democratic Party does things then there are going to be serious problems in the campaign.
    Could we get some people who know what they’re doing, please.

  176. What disturbs me most about the Iowa app mess is that apparently the contract to develop the app was awarded on some kind of crony basis.
    I may be overgeneralizing, but if that’s the way the Democratic Party does things then there are going to be serious problems in the campaign.
    Could we get some people who know what they’re doing, please.

  177. What disturbs me most about the Iowa app mess is that apparently the contract to develop the app was awarded on some kind of crony basis.
    Maybe you could elaborate on that? Crony basis?
    I worked for a not-for-profit at one time, and we had a volunteer (crony) develop an app for us. It was a great app, and it was widely used – worked very well. The volunteer updated it once. Again, it was beloved. It fell out of use because the volunteer couldn’t devote their life to updating the app, and iPhone moved on. It was all good, but then the not-for-profit couldn’t turn hair into gold.
    What did the crony get paid? Was the crony an enthusiastic amateur?
    I may be overgeneralizing, but if that’s the way the Democratic Party does things then there are going to be serious problems in the campaign.
    I think the Iowa Democratic Party is different than the DNC. Maybe I’m wrong.
    Our country is, unfortunately, very complicated. And in the world of generalizing, it’s all about blaming Democrats.

  178. What disturbs me most about the Iowa app mess is that apparently the contract to develop the app was awarded on some kind of crony basis.
    Maybe you could elaborate on that? Crony basis?
    I worked for a not-for-profit at one time, and we had a volunteer (crony) develop an app for us. It was a great app, and it was widely used – worked very well. The volunteer updated it once. Again, it was beloved. It fell out of use because the volunteer couldn’t devote their life to updating the app, and iPhone moved on. It was all good, but then the not-for-profit couldn’t turn hair into gold.
    What did the crony get paid? Was the crony an enthusiastic amateur?
    I may be overgeneralizing, but if that’s the way the Democratic Party does things then there are going to be serious problems in the campaign.
    I think the Iowa Democratic Party is different than the DNC. Maybe I’m wrong.
    Our country is, unfortunately, very complicated. And in the world of generalizing, it’s all about blaming Democrats.

  179. Also, just to add on to my comment about the Iowa debacle, what’s with caucuses, anyway?
    My district in Virginia had a caucus in 2018 for the House nominee, and it was a shitshow. People who wanted to come couldn’t find a place to park. Etc.
    Let’s make caucuses a great town meeting situation to decide municipal crap, not federal elections.
    I don’t know what the DNC has to do with whether Iowa has a caucus or not, but Bernie LOVES caucuses. So we ban them and he’s screwed and “rigged” out.
    Caucuses are a problem. Iowa is a problem.

  180. Also, just to add on to my comment about the Iowa debacle, what’s with caucuses, anyway?
    My district in Virginia had a caucus in 2018 for the House nominee, and it was a shitshow. People who wanted to come couldn’t find a place to park. Etc.
    Let’s make caucuses a great town meeting situation to decide municipal crap, not federal elections.
    I don’t know what the DNC has to do with whether Iowa has a caucus or not, but Bernie LOVES caucuses. So we ban them and he’s screwed and “rigged” out.
    Caucuses are a problem. Iowa is a problem.

  183. My facebook feed is full of Berners who claim that the app used in iowas comes from a company with ties to hrc thus proving THAT IT WAS A PLOT BY THE DNC!!!!! and Bernie coming in a close second hasn’t lessened their paranoia a bit.

  184. My facebook feed is full of Berners who claim that the app used in iowas comes from a company with ties to hrc thus proving THAT IT WAS A PLOT BY THE DNC!!!!! and Bernie coming in a close second hasn’t lessened their paranoia a bit.

  185. bobbyp: What’s your view on caucuses and Bernie? Please explain why it’s all good.
    My guess is that you will do another whataboutism ploy.
    I like you a lot, because in the end you do the right thing. But maybe try doing it now?

  186. bobbyp: What’s your view on caucuses and Bernie? Please explain why it’s all good.
    My guess is that you will do another whataboutism ploy.
    I like you a lot, because in the end you do the right thing. But maybe try doing it now?

  189. apparently the contract to develop the app was awarded on some kind of crony basis.
    Networking can be a great way to find potential employees, vendors, etc. That is, it can help you find people (or companies) that otherwise might not get considered. Where it becomes a problem is if a) it becomes the only way to get consideted, and b) if it influences to decision on who to actually hire/buy from.
    Politics, of course, is all about networking. So it’s hardly surprising that someone got hired who had previous contacts with those doing the hiring. And I’m sure politics sees the same “small world” phenomena that I see all the time in IT. So it’s also hardly surprising that someone got hired who previously worked with/for anybody else in the business.
    In short, going instantly to “It’s a plot!” reflects paranoia, not reality. (As a side note, any halfway competent conspirator would be careful to hire someone with NO prior contacts with anybody.)

  190. apparently the contract to develop the app was awarded on some kind of crony basis.
    Networking can be a great way to find potential employees, vendors, etc. That is, it can help you find people (or companies) that otherwise might not get considered. Where it becomes a problem is if a) it becomes the only way to get consideted, and b) if it influences to decision on who to actually hire/buy from.
    Politics, of course, is all about networking. So it’s hardly surprising that someone got hired who had previous contacts with those doing the hiring. And I’m sure politics sees the same “small world” phenomena that I see all the time in IT. So it’s also hardly surprising that someone got hired who previously worked with/for anybody else in the business.
    In short, going instantly to “It’s a plot!” reflects paranoia, not reality. (As a side note, any halfway competent conspirator would be careful to hire someone with NO prior contacts with anybody.)

  191. “My facebook feed is full of Berners who claim that the app used in iowas comes from a company with ties to hrc thus proving THAT IT WAS A PLOT BY THE DNC!!!!! and Bernie coming in a close second hasn’t lessened their paranoia a bit. ”
    Whining petulant children. Truly, a Left version of Trumpettes. Actually, I’m not sure they’re really leftists; it’s hard to tell with personality cults. They’re for whatever glorifies their idol and enraged at whatever doesn’t.

  192. “My facebook feed is full of Berners who claim that the app used in iowas comes from a company with ties to hrc thus proving THAT IT WAS A PLOT BY THE DNC!!!!! and Bernie coming in a close second hasn’t lessened their paranoia a bit. ”
    Whining petulant children. Truly, a Left version of Trumpettes. Actually, I’m not sure they’re really leftists; it’s hard to tell with personality cults. They’re for whatever glorifies their idol and enraged at whatever doesn’t.

  193. bobbyp: What’s your view on caucuses and Bernie? Please explain why it’s all good.
    Funny you should bring that up. Our state Democratic Party has used the caucus system for a good long time. This year we finally ditched it to go with a primary. Nearly all of the lefties of my acquaintance supported this move wholeheartedly, myself included.
    My guess is that you will do another whataboutism ploy.
    Sorry to disappoint.
    As to my views on Bernie…well, he’s the leftmost Dem candidate, so there’s that. I also like Warren. Neither of them call for the expropriation of the expropriators, but you can’t have everything.
    As to how this will all work out? Anybody’s guess. But I would opine this, if militant moderates like yourself really want to stop Bernie, you should be pressing hard to get people like you to rally around just one candidate to oppose him. A split field allowed Trump to walk thru to the nomination. Instead of spending your time and energy berating berniebros, it might be better spent imploring people like Senator Amy and Joey B. to drop out quick.
    And if a Bernie nomination comes to pass? Well, I would agree with this.
    Have a good day. Thanks.

  194. bobbyp: What’s your view on caucuses and Bernie? Please explain why it’s all good.
    Funny you should bring that up. Our state Democratic Party has used the caucus system for a good long time. This year we finally ditched it to go with a primary. Nearly all of the lefties of my acquaintance supported this move wholeheartedly, myself included.
    My guess is that you will do another whataboutism ploy.
    Sorry to disappoint.
    As to my views on Bernie…well, he’s the leftmost Dem candidate, so there’s that. I also like Warren. Neither of them call for the expropriation of the expropriators, but you can’t have everything.
    As to how this will all work out? Anybody’s guess. But I would opine this, if militant moderates like yourself really want to stop Bernie, you should be pressing hard to get people like you to rally around just one candidate to oppose him. A split field allowed Trump to walk thru to the nomination. Instead of spending your time and energy berating berniebros, it might be better spent imploring people like Senator Amy and Joey B. to drop out quick.
    And if a Bernie nomination comes to pass? Well, I would agree with this.
    Have a good day. Thanks.

  195. some other thoughts on Bernie that I found interesting:
    Here.
    and here.
    Never let your bile overcome your intellectual curiosity. As a murderous wag once said, “Let a thousand flowers bloom.”

  196. some other thoughts on Bernie that I found interesting:
    Here.
    and here.
    Never let your bile overcome your intellectual curiosity. As a murderous wag once said, “Let a thousand flowers bloom.”

  197. In short, going instantly to “It’s a plot!” reflects paranoia, not reality.
    I’m not going there. Apparently the app was designed by company called Shadow, which is controlled by/connected with/something else an outfit called ACRONYM, which does a lot of work for Democrats. All well and good and reasonable.
    But I do wonder whether anyone did a good job of checking out Shadow before hiring them for this. I’m not alleging some sort of plot, just a careless award of a contract to your buddy.

  198. In short, going instantly to “It’s a plot!” reflects paranoia, not reality.
    I’m not going there. Apparently the app was designed by company called Shadow, which is controlled by/connected with/something else an outfit called ACRONYM, which does a lot of work for Democrats. All well and good and reasonable.
    But I do wonder whether anyone did a good job of checking out Shadow before hiring them for this. I’m not alleging some sort of plot, just a careless award of a contract to your buddy.

  199. My facebook feed is full of Berners who claim …
    AFAICT, all they do, 24/7, is invent conspiracies in which they are the victims. they are poison, actively working to sicken people and keep them from voting for the only alternative we have to the GOP.

  200. My facebook feed is full of Berners who claim …
    AFAICT, all they do, 24/7, is invent conspiracies in which they are the victims. they are poison, actively working to sicken people and keep them from voting for the only alternative we have to the GOP.

  205. I keep looking for the candidate who has no obnoxious supporters.
    not a lot of Klobuchar supporters are threatening to sit it out if they can’t have their way.

  206. I keep looking for the candidate who has no obnoxious supporters.
    not a lot of Klobuchar supporters are threatening to sit it out if they can’t have their way.

  209. yeah.
    we’re done for.
    humans are much better at lying than they are at understanding.
    i’ll rest easy knowing i was on the side of truth. the MAGAs can enjoy their ‘win’.

  210. yeah.
    we’re done for.
    humans are much better at lying than they are at understanding.
    i’ll rest easy knowing i was on the side of truth. the MAGAs can enjoy their ‘win’.

  211. not a lot of Klobuchar supporters are threatening to sit it out if they can’t have their way.
    A point solidly in her favor
    .
    Here’s the long story
    Here’s the short story, as I understand it.
    The Iowa (D)’s, or whoever, spent about $60k on the app. Depending on market, that is something like three to six months of one mid-career developer’s time.
    In real life, that is a tiny amount of money to spend on building a piece of mission-critical software. Piddling.
    Putting something as consequential as measuring the outcome of a state-level primary for major party candidate for POTUS at hazard by committing to a system with a half-assed level of investment is profoundly irresponsible. Whoever had the brilliant idea should never again be trusted with anything more than ordering staples.
    In private industry, people get fired for stuff like this. People I’ve known and worked with have gotten fired for stuff like this.
    Organizations with concerns about the security and accuracy of information spend millions and millions if not billions of dollars to guarantee the availability and reliability of the systems they use to manage it. And an additional millions and millions if not billions on careful consideration on how the system is to be used, and how to make it sufficiently intuitive to use that people who understand what they are trying to do, but are not particularly interested in software systems, can use it effectively.
    I have no idea if there was some kind of skullduggery involved here, and it’s not necessary for there to have been any for a clusterfnck like this to have happened. All that is required is for some smart-ass who thinks they know what they’re doing to pitch the right people with the “hey, you can do it on your phone!” bullshit.
    I don’t know how other countries do things, but the way we here in the US elect people to national office is the most god-awful mash-up of quaint folkways and grifting bullshit that I can imagine.
    There needs to be a national standard for who can vote, and there needs to be national investment in simple, basic, reliable systems for ensuring that everyone who is eligible to vote can do so, that their vote is reliably and durably recorded, and there needs to be a bullet-proof procedure for addressing and resolving the anomalies that inevitably arise.
    Being able to “do it on your phone” should be one of the least important considerations. If you want to make it convenient for people to vote, make election day a national holiday.
    What we have now is a freaking mess.

  212. not a lot of Klobuchar supporters are threatening to sit it out if they can’t have their way.
    A point solidly in her favor
    .
    Here’s the long story
    Here’s the short story, as I understand it.
    The Iowa (D)’s, or whoever, spent about $60k on the app. Depending on market, that is something like three to six months of one mid-career developer’s time.
    In real life, that is a tiny amount of money to spend on building a piece of mission-critical software. Piddling.
    Putting something as consequential as measuring the outcome of a state-level primary for major party candidate for POTUS at hazard by committing to a system with a half-assed level of investment is profoundly irresponsible. Whoever had the brilliant idea should never again be trusted with anything more than ordering staples.
    In private industry, people get fired for stuff like this. People I’ve known and worked with have gotten fired for stuff like this.
    Organizations with concerns about the security and accuracy of information spend millions and millions if not billions of dollars to guarantee the availability and reliability of the systems they use to manage it. And an additional millions and millions if not billions on careful consideration on how the system is to be used, and how to make it sufficiently intuitive to use that people who understand what they are trying to do, but are not particularly interested in software systems, can use it effectively.
    I have no idea if there was some kind of skullduggery involved here, and it’s not necessary for there to have been any for a clusterfnck like this to have happened. All that is required is for some smart-ass who thinks they know what they’re doing to pitch the right people with the “hey, you can do it on your phone!” bullshit.
    I don’t know how other countries do things, but the way we here in the US elect people to national office is the most god-awful mash-up of quaint folkways and grifting bullshit that I can imagine.
    There needs to be a national standard for who can vote, and there needs to be national investment in simple, basic, reliable systems for ensuring that everyone who is eligible to vote can do so, that their vote is reliably and durably recorded, and there needs to be a bullet-proof procedure for addressing and resolving the anomalies that inevitably arise.
    Being able to “do it on your phone” should be one of the least important considerations. If you want to make it convenient for people to vote, make election day a national holiday.
    What we have now is a freaking mess.

  213. I have no idea if there was some kind of skullduggery involved here
    one point on the “not likely” side: $60K isn’t enough to pay for development time and subsequent silence.

  214. I have no idea if there was some kind of skullduggery involved here
    one point on the “not likely” side: $60K isn’t enough to pay for development time and subsequent silence.

  215. On elf the more depressing articles I’ve read in a while
    Yes, we’re soaking in it.
    The triumph of the shameless.

  216. On elf the more depressing articles I’ve read in a while
    Yes, we’re soaking in it.
    The triumph of the shameless.

  217. I have no idea if there was some kind of skullduggery involved here, and it’s not necessary for there to have been any for a clusterfnck like this to have happened. All that is required is for some smart-ass who thinks they know what they’re doing to pitch the right people with the “hey, you can do it on your phone!” bullshit.
    This, and the rest of Russell’s comment, is the point I was trying to make, none too clearly, I guess. I happen to be involved with a company that is in the business of designing and building mobile apps. I can tell you that we would have considered it insane to take on this job for $60K with a two-month time frame.
    So the issue here is likely incompetence, not skulduggery, on the part of the Iowa Democrats, which led them, I suspect, to accept assurances they shouldn’t have accepted. Just a small effort to get bids from other vendors would have told them this was a bad idea.
    Instead, they went with the connected firm.
    That’s what I meant by cronyism. It doesn’t have to be corrupt. Sometimes it’s just stupid.

  218. I have no idea if there was some kind of skullduggery involved here, and it’s not necessary for there to have been any for a clusterfnck like this to have happened. All that is required is for some smart-ass who thinks they know what they’re doing to pitch the right people with the “hey, you can do it on your phone!” bullshit.
    This, and the rest of Russell’s comment, is the point I was trying to make, none too clearly, I guess. I happen to be involved with a company that is in the business of designing and building mobile apps. I can tell you that we would have considered it insane to take on this job for $60K with a two-month time frame.
    So the issue here is likely incompetence, not skulduggery, on the part of the Iowa Democrats, which led them, I suspect, to accept assurances they shouldn’t have accepted. Just a small effort to get bids from other vendors would have told them this was a bad idea.
    Instead, they went with the connected firm.
    That’s what I meant by cronyism. It doesn’t have to be corrupt. Sometimes it’s just stupid.

  219. What we have now is a freaking mess.
    With vested interests in keeping it that way or making it even messier.
    The only simplification acceptable would be ‘landed gentry only’ (with no check of citizenship).

  220. What we have now is a freaking mess.
    With vested interests in keeping it that way or making it even messier.
    The only simplification acceptable would be ‘landed gentry only’ (with no check of citizenship).

  223. I have no idea if there was some kind of skullduggery involved here…
    Someone who does software postmortems has apparently obtained a copy of the Iowa Democrats’ app. His (unverified) report is that it used Facebook’s open source React Native framework, and looked like whoever wrote it was working their way through some dated React tutorials for how to do things. Sounds like incompetence on multiple levels rather than skullduggery…

  224. I have no idea if there was some kind of skullduggery involved here…
    Someone who does software postmortems has apparently obtained a copy of the Iowa Democrats’ app. His (unverified) report is that it used Facebook’s open source React Native framework, and looked like whoever wrote it was working their way through some dated React tutorials for how to do things. Sounds like incompetence on multiple levels rather than skullduggery…

  225. Being able to “do it on your phone” should be one of the least important considerations.
    Everyone can (and should!) vote on their phone, already!
    Here’s how: Enter the voting booth. Drop your phone on the floor. JUMP on it, hard. Stand on the resulting debris. Then vote.
    Congratulations, you’ve just voted on your phone. And made the electorate smarter also, too.

  226. Being able to “do it on your phone” should be one of the least important considerations.
    Everyone can (and should!) vote on their phone, already!
    Here’s how: Enter the voting booth. Drop your phone on the floor. JUMP on it, hard. Stand on the resulting debris. Then vote.
    Congratulations, you’ve just voted on your phone. And made the electorate smarter also, too.

  227. I either lost or had a lengthy comment on this news get caught in the jaws of OBWI’s moderation net.
    Good thing, too, as we would all be headed for Guantanamo:
    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/31/trump-rolls-back-obama-era-restrictions-on-landmines.html
    The nicest thing I said was that I wouldn’t wish a republican conservative piece of dog shit on the bottom of the one remaining shoe of Paul McCartney’s lying one-legged second (ex)wife.
    Kudos to vermin everywhere for not being Trump and his murderers. Vermin are ensouled compared to republican filth, particularly the stinking, murderous fake Christian variety in America.
    The Republican Party has given us semi-automatic weapons of war and now restores landmines to our arsenal.
    They are the instruments of Rapture.
    Use them.
    Blow up Bannon’s zone.

  228. I either lost or had a lengthy comment on this news get caught in the jaws of OBWI’s moderation net.
    Good thing, too, as we would all be headed for Guantanamo:
    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/31/trump-rolls-back-obama-era-restrictions-on-landmines.html
    The nicest thing I said was that I wouldn’t wish a republican conservative piece of dog shit on the bottom of the one remaining shoe of Paul McCartney’s lying one-legged second (ex)wife.
    Kudos to vermin everywhere for not being Trump and his murderers. Vermin are ensouled compared to republican filth, particularly the stinking, murderous fake Christian variety in America.
    The Republican Party has given us semi-automatic weapons of war and now restores landmines to our arsenal.
    They are the instruments of Rapture.
    Use them.
    Blow up Bannon’s zone.

  229. I dunno about skullduggery, but in the bigger picture there’s gotta be some cronyism going on. I know we’re all John Waynes and we’re gonna do our elections our way while we’re pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps, but the lack of standardization is inexcusable at this point.
    I’m no genius, stable or otherwise, but my wish list is ranked choice, offline voting machines with a locked data port, and one machine per location with e2e encryption to wherever the results are tallied. And a paper receipt. If CVS can print out my life’s history every time I buy a tube of toothpaste, that doesn’t seem like a big ask.
    It’s 2020. I’ve given up on my hoverboard, but this one seems doable. Like, today.

  230. I dunno about skullduggery, but in the bigger picture there’s gotta be some cronyism going on. I know we’re all John Waynes and we’re gonna do our elections our way while we’re pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps, but the lack of standardization is inexcusable at this point.
    I’m no genius, stable or otherwise, but my wish list is ranked choice, offline voting machines with a locked data port, and one machine per location with e2e encryption to wherever the results are tallied. And a paper receipt. If CVS can print out my life’s history every time I buy a tube of toothpaste, that doesn’t seem like a big ask.
    It’s 2020. I’ve given up on my hoverboard, but this one seems doable. Like, today.

  231. I haven’t gotten to the Vox piece yet, but after reading the Atlantic piece, I’ve come to realize what a perfect villain Mysterio from Spider-Man: Far From Home was for our times (despite being based on a villain from the comics dating back to 1964).
    I don’t know how many others here have seen that film, but I have kids, so I did see it. It even ends with the public airing of a deep-fake video from Mysterio, the nature of which I won’t reveal. No spoilers!
    Beyond that, I’m finding the world I live in to be increasingly surreal. I don’t like it.

  232. I haven’t gotten to the Vox piece yet, but after reading the Atlantic piece, I’ve come to realize what a perfect villain Mysterio from Spider-Man: Far From Home was for our times (despite being based on a villain from the comics dating back to 1964).
    I don’t know how many others here have seen that film, but I have kids, so I did see it. It even ends with the public airing of a deep-fake video from Mysterio, the nature of which I won’t reveal. No spoilers!
    Beyond that, I’m finding the world I live in to be increasingly surreal. I don’t like it.

  233. It’s 2020. I’ve given up on my hoverboard, but this one seems doable.
    Smellevision is 20 years overdue.

  234. It’s 2020. I’ve given up on my hoverboard, but this one seems doable.
    Smellevision is 20 years overdue.

  235. Beyond that, I’m finding the world I live in to be increasingly surreal.
    Allow a discount for your age… 🙂

  236. Beyond that, I’m finding the world I live in to be increasingly surreal.
    Allow a discount for your age… 🙂

  241. And an additional millions and millions if not billions on careful consideration on how the system is to be used, and how to make it sufficiently intuitive to use that people who understand what they are trying to do, but are not particularly interested in software systems, can use it effectively.
    Forget “intuitive” — because what is intuitive to the developer frequently isn’t to users. Especially users who, like most caucus chairs, didn’t grow up with this kind of stuff.
    I think the biggest, and most culpable, failure was in not having trainers out across the state in the week before, to make sure everybody had successfully downloaded and installed the app. And had tried it out and understood how they would be using it. Training! — there really is no substitute. And no excuse for not doing it.

  242. And an additional millions and millions if not billions on careful consideration on how the system is to be used, and how to make it sufficiently intuitive to use that people who understand what they are trying to do, but are not particularly interested in software systems, can use it effectively.
    Forget “intuitive” — because what is intuitive to the developer frequently isn’t to users. Especially users who, like most caucus chairs, didn’t grow up with this kind of stuff.
    I think the biggest, and most culpable, failure was in not having trainers out across the state in the week before, to make sure everybody had successfully downloaded and installed the app. And had tried it out and understood how they would be using it. Training! — there really is no substitute. And no excuse for not doing it.

  247. I think the biggest, and most culpable, failure was in not having trainers out across the state in the week before…
    No kidding.
    At that point they’d have quietly abandoned it.

  248. I think the biggest, and most culpable, failure was in not having trainers out across the state in the week before…
    No kidding.
    At that point they’d have quietly abandoned it.

  255. Kind of a mash-up of two previous links on this thread concerning stolen elections:
    https://digbysblog.net/2020/02/get-ready-for-1984/
    In sane countries, when elections are stolen, killing, butchering and slaughtering follow.
    Ask the fucking Founders.
    Then the illegitimate government, in this case the corrupt, fascist Trump Republican Party, the unelected thieves of the sovereign vote, begin committing genocide on their enemies … US.
    True, no one wants that.
    Most of history wasn’t requested.

  256. Kind of a mash-up of two previous links on this thread concerning stolen elections:
    https://digbysblog.net/2020/02/get-ready-for-1984/
    In sane countries, when elections are stolen, killing, butchering and slaughtering follow.
    Ask the fucking Founders.
    Then the illegitimate government, in this case the corrupt, fascist Trump Republican Party, the unelected thieves of the sovereign vote, begin committing genocide on their enemies … US.
    True, no one wants that.
    Most of history wasn’t requested.

  257. David Brooks never fails to massage the prostate of the republican party with his forked tongue:
    he twats:
    “Instead of spending the past 3 years on Mueller and impeachment suppose Trump opponents had spent the time on an infrastructure bill or early childhood education? More good would have been done.”

  258. David Brooks never fails to massage the prostate of the republican party with his forked tongue:
    he twats:
    “Instead of spending the past 3 years on Mueller and impeachment suppose Trump opponents had spent the time on an infrastructure bill or early childhood education? More good would have been done.”

  259. I have no idea where the elf came from….

    1. You hit the space bar an instant before the “e” in “one”, instead of after.
    2. That leaves you with “eof” as the second word, instead of “of”
    3. Auto-correct helpfully changes the “o” to “l”, in order to get a real word

    Presto!
    Timing is everything.

  260. I have no idea where the elf came from….

    1. You hit the space bar an instant before the “e” in “one”, instead of after.
    2. That leaves you with “eof” as the second word, instead of “of”
    3. Auto-correct helpfully changes the “o” to “l”, in order to get a real word

    Presto!
    Timing is everything.

  261. “Instead of spending the past 3 years on Mueller and impeachment suppose Trump opponents had spent the time on an infrastructure bill or early childhood education?”
    An argument for policial theater over legislation. Besides, it’s more entertaining.

  262. “Instead of spending the past 3 years on Mueller and impeachment suppose Trump opponents had spent the time on an infrastructure bill or early childhood education?”
    An argument for policial theater over legislation. Besides, it’s more entertaining.

  265. …but in the bigger picture there’s gotta be some cronyism going on.
    Of course. The Iowa Democrats had a procedure in place for the precincts to phone in their results. Reportedly, the DNC told them two months before the caucuses that phoning in wasn’t acceptable. The response to that was undoubtedly a panicked meeting that started with the question, “Who knows someone that can give us a spiffy-looking high-tech solution in two months? For less than the $60K left in the budget.”
    Standard engineering rules apply. You can have it fast, good, or cheap; pick two.

  266. …but in the bigger picture there’s gotta be some cronyism going on.
    Of course. The Iowa Democrats had a procedure in place for the precincts to phone in their results. Reportedly, the DNC told them two months before the caucuses that phoning in wasn’t acceptable. The response to that was undoubtedly a panicked meeting that started with the question, “Who knows someone that can give us a spiffy-looking high-tech solution in two months? For less than the $60K left in the budget.”
    Standard engineering rules apply. You can have it fast, good, or cheap; pick two.

  267. I think that if the DMC had been up to any actual intentional skullduggery, they would’ve come up with a plot more effective than one that gave Bernie a quarter of the votes and only fifteen percent to Joe.
    What scares me about this is the ineptness. We are depending on the DNC to lead us through an election fraught with Russian inference and REthuglican cheating. And their effort to have transparency and protect results in a massive fuck up.

  268. I think that if the DMC had been up to any actual intentional skullduggery, they would’ve come up with a plot more effective than one that gave Bernie a quarter of the votes and only fifteen percent to Joe.
    What scares me about this is the ineptness. We are depending on the DNC to lead us through an election fraught with Russian inference and REthuglican cheating. And their effort to have transparency and protect results in a massive fuck up.

  273. The myriad failures surrounding the app are fun to dive into but they miss the point: Iowa is a failed state, because of the resource curse, and their sham caucus is the key mechanism by which they exploit the non-failed-states.
    This is easier to see outside the US, so compare Saudi Arabia to Egypt. One has lots of oil, the other doesn’t. Egypt has a lot of engineers, scientists, doctors, artists, business-folk — Egyptians are productive, despite living under a brutal kleptocratic dictatorship that ruins their economy. SA, well, SA doesn’t have any of that. 90% of the country lives on government assistance and most of the real work in the country is done by foreign laborers, many of whom are abused horribly and treated like slaves. It is not a coincidence that the 9/11 attacks were paid for by a rich dude from SA, used muscle mostly from SA, but were planned by an Egyptian. Half a dozen Nobel Price recipients are Egyptian, but only one from SA.
    Why are these societies so different? Because of the resource curse.
    Well, Iowa suffers from a resource curse too, except with ag instead of oil. Just like in SA, most of the actual farm work is done by guest workers, or as we call them, undocumented migrants. Every year, Iowa votes for stricter punishments and fewer rights for all the undocumented workers that do so much of the ag work there; that makes abusing those folks even easier.
    Iowa has exactly the kind of degraded institutions of democracy that one finds in other resource cursed states. Can you imagine if someone proposed a voting system to preferentially disenfranchise poor people, people with small children, disabled people, sick people, people abused by their partners? The whole thing is a joke. Part of that is because people from Iowa are incompetent (for evidence, I present to you: the Iowa caucuses). But part of it is because the point of the caucuses isn’t to select nominees, but rather to maximize excitement for TV news. Nominee selection is just a side effect, and honestly not one that the IDP cares all that much about, judging from the process they’ve designed.
    But the TV news excitement is worth an extra Senator or two. It ensures that Iowa retains its magical first in the nation status so that no one can think of becoming President without spending months in Iowa, sucking up to Iowans and promising to do whatever fool thing Iowa wants. That’s why we have an ethanol mandate, which is way of taxing people from economically productive places and shipping the money to Iowa.

  274. The myriad failures surrounding the app are fun to dive into but they miss the point: Iowa is a failed state, because of the resource curse, and their sham caucus is the key mechanism by which they exploit the non-failed-states.
    This is easier to see outside the US, so compare Saudi Arabia to Egypt. One has lots of oil, the other doesn’t. Egypt has a lot of engineers, scientists, doctors, artists, business-folk — Egyptians are productive, despite living under a brutal kleptocratic dictatorship that ruins their economy. SA, well, SA doesn’t have any of that. 90% of the country lives on government assistance and most of the real work in the country is done by foreign laborers, many of whom are abused horribly and treated like slaves. It is not a coincidence that the 9/11 attacks were paid for by a rich dude from SA, used muscle mostly from SA, but were planned by an Egyptian. Half a dozen Nobel Price recipients are Egyptian, but only one from SA.
    Why are these societies so different? Because of the resource curse.
    Well, Iowa suffers from a resource curse too, except with ag instead of oil. Just like in SA, most of the actual farm work is done by guest workers, or as we call them, undocumented migrants. Every year, Iowa votes for stricter punishments and fewer rights for all the undocumented workers that do so much of the ag work there; that makes abusing those folks even easier.
    Iowa has exactly the kind of degraded institutions of democracy that one finds in other resource cursed states. Can you imagine if someone proposed a voting system to preferentially disenfranchise poor people, people with small children, disabled people, sick people, people abused by their partners? The whole thing is a joke. Part of that is because people from Iowa are incompetent (for evidence, I present to you: the Iowa caucuses). But part of it is because the point of the caucuses isn’t to select nominees, but rather to maximize excitement for TV news. Nominee selection is just a side effect, and honestly not one that the IDP cares all that much about, judging from the process they’ve designed.
    But the TV news excitement is worth an extra Senator or two. It ensures that Iowa retains its magical first in the nation status so that no one can think of becoming President without spending months in Iowa, sucking up to Iowans and promising to do whatever fool thing Iowa wants. That’s why we have an ethanol mandate, which is way of taxing people from economically productive places and shipping the money to Iowa.

  275. It ensures that Iowa retains its magical first in the nation status so that no one can think of becoming President without spending months in Iowa, sucking up to Iowans and promising to do whatever fool thing Iowa wants.
    Most of which is peripheral to all the money spent by the candidates. And, as a side effect, all the news organizations who have people there covering the event.

  276. It ensures that Iowa retains its magical first in the nation status so that no one can think of becoming President without spending months in Iowa, sucking up to Iowans and promising to do whatever fool thing Iowa wants.
    Most of which is peripheral to all the money spent by the candidates. And, as a side effect, all the news organizations who have people there covering the event.

  277. While I suspect that Sanders might not be the preferred choice of the DNC regulars, I like to think I don’t suffer from apophenia, which is also my least favorite Who album.
    My best guess on the Iowa clusterfnck is insufficiently-trained staff combined with new rules/reporting combined with troll shenanigans combined with a groupthink/ego-driven “app-for-that” solution, because “Look at our App!”.
    The “bigger picture” I was tryna get at is that elections are one of those things that maybe the free hand doesn’t do that well. This looks like a mess to me. Does everything have to be a market?
    Give the FEC oversight, let them pinch a few propellerheads from NSA and sort this out. One nation, with the same voting rights, procedures, & hardware across the board. If some Congresscritters want to hash out who gets the sweetheart manufacturing jobs for the constituents back home, fine. And maybe let’s not farm this one out to Foxconn.
    We could even have a series of SuperTuedays by region, maybe even rotate them so everyone gets to be first once in a while. That might take some cooperation, tho. Dare I dream.

  278. While I suspect that Sanders might not be the preferred choice of the DNC regulars, I like to think I don’t suffer from apophenia, which is also my least favorite Who album.
    My best guess on the Iowa clusterfnck is insufficiently-trained staff combined with new rules/reporting combined with troll shenanigans combined with a groupthink/ego-driven “app-for-that” solution, because “Look at our App!”.
    The “bigger picture” I was tryna get at is that elections are one of those things that maybe the free hand doesn’t do that well. This looks like a mess to me. Does everything have to be a market?
    Give the FEC oversight, let them pinch a few propellerheads from NSA and sort this out. One nation, with the same voting rights, procedures, & hardware across the board. If some Congresscritters want to hash out who gets the sweetheart manufacturing jobs for the constituents back home, fine. And maybe let’s not farm this one out to Foxconn.
    We could even have a series of SuperTuedays by region, maybe even rotate them so everyone gets to be first once in a while. That might take some cooperation, tho. Dare I dream.

  279. Fixed that for you.
    Thank you. Yes, we’ve all worked on at least one project that was very late, worked badly if at all, and was grotesquely expensive. I worked on the periphery of a software project that spent $150M (in 1995 dollars) over the course of two years and produced exactly zero working lines of code. Impressively inept.

  280. Fixed that for you.
    Thank you. Yes, we’ve all worked on at least one project that was very late, worked badly if at all, and was grotesquely expensive. I worked on the periphery of a software project that spent $150M (in 1995 dollars) over the course of two years and produced exactly zero working lines of code. Impressively inept.

  283. I suspect that Sanders might not be the preferred choice of the DNC regulars
    They have to be at least thinking about the chances of going down a Corbyn-style rathole with Sanders. Leaving 4 more years of Trump in our future. God forbid.

  284. I suspect that Sanders might not be the preferred choice of the DNC regulars
    They have to be at least thinking about the chances of going down a Corbyn-style rathole with Sanders. Leaving 4 more years of Trump in our future. God forbid.

  285. Russell’s link brings me back to CaseyL’s comment from yesterday morning.
    The phenomenon strikes me as a sign of fin de siecle: when an economy manufactures nothing of actual value, and the people who make out like bandits are the ones who degrade value for their own (enormous) profit.

  286. Russell’s link brings me back to CaseyL’s comment from yesterday morning.
    The phenomenon strikes me as a sign of fin de siecle: when an economy manufactures nothing of actual value, and the people who make out like bandits are the ones who degrade value for their own (enormous) profit.

  287. They have to be at least thinking about the chances of going down a Corbyn-style rathole with Sanders
    They should know from rabbit holes….they left McGovern high and dry.

  288. They have to be at least thinking about the chances of going down a Corbyn-style rathole with Sanders
    They should know from rabbit holes….they left McGovern high and dry.

  289. They have to be at least thinking about the chances of going down a Corbyn-style rathole with Sanders.
    Everyone not entrenched in the MAGA camp fears that, and it’s a very legitimate concern. But they also have to be thinking about a Hillary-style path with Electable Joe. These are the bigly questions.
    Whoever “won” Iowa, if Vegas and 538 are indicators, Sanders is now the Dem frontrunner. As of this morning, 538 has him forecast to run the table, including SC and Delaware.
    We’ll see if/how the tone of his campaign (and of his more obnoxious supporters) changes with that new (and unfamiliar) status.

  290. They have to be at least thinking about the chances of going down a Corbyn-style rathole with Sanders.
    Everyone not entrenched in the MAGA camp fears that, and it’s a very legitimate concern. But they also have to be thinking about a Hillary-style path with Electable Joe. These are the bigly questions.
    Whoever “won” Iowa, if Vegas and 538 are indicators, Sanders is now the Dem frontrunner. As of this morning, 538 has him forecast to run the table, including SC and Delaware.
    We’ll see if/how the tone of his campaign (and of his more obnoxious supporters) changes with that new (and unfamiliar) status.

  293. “The key to success is sincerity. If you can fake that you’ve got it made.” — George Burns
    My impression is that Sanders is one of the very few politicians not faking it. That doesn’t convence me to vote for him though.

  294. “The key to success is sincerity. If you can fake that you’ve got it made.” — George Burns
    My impression is that Sanders is one of the very few politicians not faking it. That doesn’t convence me to vote for him though.

  295. I’m finding the world I live in to be increasingly surreal. I don’t like it.
    A pretty exact description of how I feel most of the time now when watching the news.

  296. I’m finding the world I live in to be increasingly surreal. I don’t like it.
    A pretty exact description of how I feel most of the time now when watching the news.

  299. To my mind, Sanders resembles Corbyn far, far more than he does McGovern. YMMV, of course.
    The compare/contrast is difficult and way above my pay grade. I think Sanders may have a fraught path to navigate if he solidifies his position in NH and NV, which suddenly seems possible if not likely. Trump is still the ultimate target, but punching down against the rest of the field requires a much more delicate touch than punching up, and that’s not a term usually associated with Sanders.
    FWIW, my odometer was pretty low in ’72. 🙂

  300. To my mind, Sanders resembles Corbyn far, far more than he does McGovern. YMMV, of course.
    The compare/contrast is difficult and way above my pay grade. I think Sanders may have a fraught path to navigate if he solidifies his position in NH and NV, which suddenly seems possible if not likely. Trump is still the ultimate target, but punching down against the rest of the field requires a much more delicate touch than punching up, and that’s not a term usually associated with Sanders.
    FWIW, my odometer was pretty low in ’72. 🙂

  301. But the TV news excitement is worth an extra Senator or two. It ensures that Iowa retains its magical first in the nation status so that no one can think of becoming President without spending months in Iowa, sucking up to Iowans and promising to do whatever fool thing Iowa wants. That’s why we have an ethanol mandate, which is way of taxing people from economically productive places and shipping the money to Iowa.
    Thank you. Also, it’s really good to see you here, Turbulence.

  302. But the TV news excitement is worth an extra Senator or two. It ensures that Iowa retains its magical first in the nation status so that no one can think of becoming President without spending months in Iowa, sucking up to Iowans and promising to do whatever fool thing Iowa wants. That’s why we have an ethanol mandate, which is way of taxing people from economically productive places and shipping the money to Iowa.
    Thank you. Also, it’s really good to see you here, Turbulence.

  305. On the subject of cults, I don’t see the difference between the Clinton cult and the Obama cult and the Sanders cult. You have people in the first group who think every criticism of Hillary, for instance, is driven by Russian bots and/or misogyny. It’s reflexive. There can be no legitimate dislike of Hillary and btw, to forestall the obvious retort, I bring her up because she shoved herself back into the limelight attacking Bernie. Obama is also a sacred cow too with some. ( And the 2008 primary between them was vicious.).
    Many politicians attract a collection of whackos who make their political beliefs into some weird religion and that is before we get to the Republicans.
    And having lurked on various parts of the internet the notion that Bernie supporters are especially loathsome is bs. Women who support Sanders can tell you stories if you look for them, but it doesn’t fit the narrative that centrist liberals out forth, The msm has a mostly centrist liberal bias and they don’t like some of the criticism they get from the Internet crowd— far lefties now have something of a voice independent of them. Everybody does now, This is both good and bad, since we can also just retreat to our own bubbles. But I think it is clear that some in the centrist liberal press miss the good old days when you could only yell at them with a letter to the editor which they might or might not print and where, for better or worse, the msm told us what respectable opinion was. The far left doesn’t especially like the msm on a great many subjects and it has been that way for decades. The press doesn’t like criticism, but now they can’t avoid it.
    A lot of people like Bernie because he is the first politician with a serious shot at the WH who genuinely reflects their views on many subjects and btw, we disagree with him on some subjects. It is evidently impossible for centrist liberals to conceive of such a thing. And yes, when people are passionate about certain subjects they often get angry with people who disagree. All of you know how conservatives get treated here sometimes. Are you being morally pure assholes or is it because when you get outraged your outrage is legitimate, but those awful Bernie Bros, males and females alike, are just expressing their cultishness? Or can people be assholes sometimes, but also be right about the issues that they are yelling about?
    I could start listing issues. But I won’t. Dont’t feel like ranting on too many different subjects at once.
    I will support any Democrat who gets the nomination. I will even shut up for a few months about whatever disgusting positions they might have given the opponent is Trump. But the coalition against him is not a mutual admiration society. The Democratic Party doesn’t want people pulling a Nader and voting third party or staying home. Okay then, but guess what? The far left will try to take over and centrists will resist. It is not a group of people united on issues. On some things yes, but not on others.
    Is Sanders too extreme to win? I have no idea. I don’t drink the koolaid about that put forward by the Sanders optimists. Some part of me almost wishes that a genuinely likable moderate was the leader— at least we wouldn’t have to listen to the gaslighting centrists who oppose Sanders on policy pretending like it is all about electability concerns. Maybe a charismatic moderate would have a better shot. But otoh Sanders is a once in a lifetime opportunity for someone whose views we genuinely respect to run for office. Oh my goodness, I am being cultish. So I will vote for him in the primary without knowing who is genuinely more electable,

  306. On the subject of cults, I don’t see the difference between the Clinton cult and the Obama cult and the Sanders cult. You have people in the first group who think every criticism of Hillary, for instance, is driven by Russian bots and/or misogyny. It’s reflexive. There can be no legitimate dislike of Hillary and btw, to forestall the obvious retort, I bring her up because she shoved herself back into the limelight attacking Bernie. Obama is also a sacred cow too with some. ( And the 2008 primary between them was vicious.).
    Many politicians attract a collection of whackos who make their political beliefs into some weird religion and that is before we get to the Republicans.
    And having lurked on various parts of the internet the notion that Bernie supporters are especially loathsome is bs. Women who support Sanders can tell you stories if you look for them, but it doesn’t fit the narrative that centrist liberals out forth, The msm has a mostly centrist liberal bias and they don’t like some of the criticism they get from the Internet crowd— far lefties now have something of a voice independent of them. Everybody does now, This is both good and bad, since we can also just retreat to our own bubbles. But I think it is clear that some in the centrist liberal press miss the good old days when you could only yell at them with a letter to the editor which they might or might not print and where, for better or worse, the msm told us what respectable opinion was. The far left doesn’t especially like the msm on a great many subjects and it has been that way for decades. The press doesn’t like criticism, but now they can’t avoid it.
    A lot of people like Bernie because he is the first politician with a serious shot at the WH who genuinely reflects their views on many subjects and btw, we disagree with him on some subjects. It is evidently impossible for centrist liberals to conceive of such a thing. And yes, when people are passionate about certain subjects they often get angry with people who disagree. All of you know how conservatives get treated here sometimes. Are you being morally pure assholes or is it because when you get outraged your outrage is legitimate, but those awful Bernie Bros, males and females alike, are just expressing their cultishness? Or can people be assholes sometimes, but also be right about the issues that they are yelling about?
    I could start listing issues. But I won’t. Dont’t feel like ranting on too many different subjects at once.
    I will support any Democrat who gets the nomination. I will even shut up for a few months about whatever disgusting positions they might have given the opponent is Trump. But the coalition against him is not a mutual admiration society. The Democratic Party doesn’t want people pulling a Nader and voting third party or staying home. Okay then, but guess what? The far left will try to take over and centrists will resist. It is not a group of people united on issues. On some things yes, but not on others.
    Is Sanders too extreme to win? I have no idea. I don’t drink the koolaid about that put forward by the Sanders optimists. Some part of me almost wishes that a genuinely likable moderate was the leader— at least we wouldn’t have to listen to the gaslighting centrists who oppose Sanders on policy pretending like it is all about electability concerns. Maybe a charismatic moderate would have a better shot. But otoh Sanders is a once in a lifetime opportunity for someone whose views we genuinely respect to run for office. Oh my goodness, I am being cultish. So I will vote for him in the primary without knowing who is genuinely more electable,

  307. Also, it’s really good to see you here, Turbulence.
    Seconded. Hope all is well!
    I will support any Democrat who gets the nomination.
    Nuff said.
    Even level-headed moderate midwesterner Klobuchar yells at her staff, apparently. Everybody’s got issues.
    Ham sandwich.

  308. Also, it’s really good to see you here, Turbulence.
    Seconded. Hope all is well!
    I will support any Democrat who gets the nomination.
    Nuff said.
    Even level-headed moderate midwesterner Klobuchar yells at her staff, apparently. Everybody’s got issues.
    Ham sandwich.

  309. On the subject of cults, I don’t see the difference between the Clinton cult and the Obama cult and the Sanders cult. You have people in the first group who think every criticism of Hillary, for instance, is driven by Russian bots and/or misogyny.
    Neither Hillary Clinton nor Barack Obama is running. I do not think that every criticism of Hillary is driven by Russian bots and/or misogyny, but there was a fairly extensive investigation that found that many criticisms were Russian bot driven.
    Since we’re talking about the cult effect, let’s just mention “the crime bill!”, which Hillary Clinton didn’t sign, but Bernie Sanders did. Just a random thought.
    Obviously, Hillary signed the authorization for the Iraq war, and many people held it against her (including me, when I supported Obama in 2008). I think she had an excuse, but it was an impure thing to do for sure. Also, she supported Libya, and things didn’t turn out well (and I supported that too), so blame. Fine.
    Not every criticism of Clinton is misogyny or Russian bot driven, but refusal to vote for her against Trump? Hmmm. And, Donald, I take you at your word that you did hold your nose, throw up, beat your breast, gnash your teeth, and then cast your ballot for Hillary Clinton (I hope you did, anyway). But telling everyone that, yes, they had to do all of that first really didn’t help much, did it.
    Thanks. Now onward from 2016 to 2020.
    I fear there is no stopping Donald Trump but I’m happy to try, by campaigning for, and voting for the candidate who wins the Democratic nomination, including Bernie. And if the time comes that he is nominated, I will not signal that I have to hold my nose, throw up, beat my breast, gnash my teeth before casting my ballot. I’m going to go door to door and talk good about Bernie.

  310. On the subject of cults, I don’t see the difference between the Clinton cult and the Obama cult and the Sanders cult. You have people in the first group who think every criticism of Hillary, for instance, is driven by Russian bots and/or misogyny.
    Neither Hillary Clinton nor Barack Obama is running. I do not think that every criticism of Hillary is driven by Russian bots and/or misogyny, but there was a fairly extensive investigation that found that many criticisms were Russian bot driven.
    Since we’re talking about the cult effect, let’s just mention “the crime bill!”, which Hillary Clinton didn’t sign, but Bernie Sanders did. Just a random thought.
    Obviously, Hillary signed the authorization for the Iraq war, and many people held it against her (including me, when I supported Obama in 2008). I think she had an excuse, but it was an impure thing to do for sure. Also, she supported Libya, and things didn’t turn out well (and I supported that too), so blame. Fine.
    Not every criticism of Clinton is misogyny or Russian bot driven, but refusal to vote for her against Trump? Hmmm. And, Donald, I take you at your word that you did hold your nose, throw up, beat your breast, gnash your teeth, and then cast your ballot for Hillary Clinton (I hope you did, anyway). But telling everyone that, yes, they had to do all of that first really didn’t help much, did it.
    Thanks. Now onward from 2016 to 2020.
    I fear there is no stopping Donald Trump but I’m happy to try, by campaigning for, and voting for the candidate who wins the Democratic nomination, including Bernie. And if the time comes that he is nominated, I will not signal that I have to hold my nose, throw up, beat my breast, gnash my teeth before casting my ballot. I’m going to go door to door and talk good about Bernie.

  311. I’ll follow up.
    Here’s the thing. Four years ago, Donald J Freaking Trump won the (R) nomination, then won the general election.
    Who’d a thunk it?
    We’re in a weird place. None of the normal categories seem to apply. Anybody who tells you they know who is Most Likely To Beat Trump, or why, is lying. Because nobody knows. Nobody has the special political psychic knowledge to predict how anything is actually going to play out.
    I feel pretty comfortable saying that neither Gabbard or Yang are going to pull it off. Other than that, as far as I can tell it’s a jump ball.
    Given that, everybody should vote for and/or otherwise support whoever they would actually like to see as the (D) candidate for POTUS, and the chips will fall where they may.
    If you’re interested in trying to peel a few Trump supporters and/or any of the mythical “people on the fence” over to the (D) column, probably the best thing to do is not yell at them. Here on ObWi it’s probably OK to vent, in real life or on your FB feed probably best to keep it to yourself.
    It just makes people double down.
    Trump is a fucking sociopath, and now he is Trump Unbound. It’s going to be scorched earth from now until November. Probably beyond, no matter what happens.
    Don’t freak out. Give him the least amount of space in your head that you possibly can. Find constructive things to do, and do them. When people piss you off and you want to punch them in the face, be nice to them instead. If you can’t do that, don’t engage at all. Take a walk, listen to music, read a good book, call a friend you haven’t spoken to in a while. Do whatever it is that you do, to avoid the powerless anger death spiral.
    It’s a fucked-up time, but believe it or not, things have been worse. Things might, probably will, actually get worse than they are now before they get better.
    Buckle up, be your best self, rise above, and bring as many people along with you as you can.
    And that’s about all any of us can do.
    That’s all I got. Wish I had something more constructive to say, but I don’t. Best of luck to us all, and to the world.

  312. I’ll follow up.
    Here’s the thing. Four years ago, Donald J Freaking Trump won the (R) nomination, then won the general election.
    Who’d a thunk it?
    We’re in a weird place. None of the normal categories seem to apply. Anybody who tells you they know who is Most Likely To Beat Trump, or why, is lying. Because nobody knows. Nobody has the special political psychic knowledge to predict how anything is actually going to play out.
    I feel pretty comfortable saying that neither Gabbard or Yang are going to pull it off. Other than that, as far as I can tell it’s a jump ball.
    Given that, everybody should vote for and/or otherwise support whoever they would actually like to see as the (D) candidate for POTUS, and the chips will fall where they may.
    If you’re interested in trying to peel a few Trump supporters and/or any of the mythical “people on the fence” over to the (D) column, probably the best thing to do is not yell at them. Here on ObWi it’s probably OK to vent, in real life or on your FB feed probably best to keep it to yourself.
    It just makes people double down.
    Trump is a fucking sociopath, and now he is Trump Unbound. It’s going to be scorched earth from now until November. Probably beyond, no matter what happens.
    Don’t freak out. Give him the least amount of space in your head that you possibly can. Find constructive things to do, and do them. When people piss you off and you want to punch them in the face, be nice to them instead. If you can’t do that, don’t engage at all. Take a walk, listen to music, read a good book, call a friend you haven’t spoken to in a while. Do whatever it is that you do, to avoid the powerless anger death spiral.
    It’s a fucked-up time, but believe it or not, things have been worse. Things might, probably will, actually get worse than they are now before they get better.
    Buckle up, be your best self, rise above, and bring as many people along with you as you can.
    And that’s about all any of us can do.
    That’s all I got. Wish I had something more constructive to say, but I don’t. Best of luck to us all, and to the world.

  313. Sapient, I have mixed feelings about our whole political system. The campaign season seems to last four years. People are either worrying about midterms or about presidential elections.
    My suggestion or wish, made before, is that we compress everything into a much shorter period of time and spend 95 percent of our time talking about issues. When elections come around, it would be clear to most people who the lesser evil is, or we might even be enthusiastic.
    As a bit of balance, here is yet another reason for despising Trump.
    https://www.outsideonline.com/2409119/bears-ears-grand-staircase-escalante-reductions
    I saw another piece today about how the building of the stupid wall is causing environmental damage in another location— Arizona, I think.
    Though most of what he does on the environment just seems bad the way Republicans are bad. I also saw a piece about a new low yield nuclear weapon he is deploying, which upsets the Russians. A new nuclear arms race with the Russians is not a good thing.

  314. Sapient, I have mixed feelings about our whole political system. The campaign season seems to last four years. People are either worrying about midterms or about presidential elections.
    My suggestion or wish, made before, is that we compress everything into a much shorter period of time and spend 95 percent of our time talking about issues. When elections come around, it would be clear to most people who the lesser evil is, or we might even be enthusiastic.
    As a bit of balance, here is yet another reason for despising Trump.
    https://www.outsideonline.com/2409119/bears-ears-grand-staircase-escalante-reductions
    I saw another piece today about how the building of the stupid wall is causing environmental damage in another location— Arizona, I think.
    Though most of what he does on the environment just seems bad the way Republicans are bad. I also saw a piece about a new low yield nuclear weapon he is deploying, which upsets the Russians. A new nuclear arms race with the Russians is not a good thing.

  317. Here is the reality:
    Trump is the fucking Joker, as POTUS. He has no regard or respect for the office he holds or for the institutions and traditions he represents. He’s going to do whatever the hell he wants and whatever he can get away with, and so far that has proven to be a remarkable amount.
    I don’t really get the thought process of the folks who support him, and I’m not sure I care to. All of that is on them.
    The guardrails that our form of government normally provides to keep natural-born chaos monkeys like Trump in bounds have proven ineffective, because they rely on other parties acting responsibly, and those other parties have failed to do so. There’s an election in nine months, but that could go either way. Even if Trump loses, the toxic freaking national id he has exposed and exploited is still going to be there.
    This country is kind of fucked up at the moment. Maybe we’ll improve, maybe we won’t. At some point we probably will, but who knows.
    People who think things are going south need to focus on whatever they can find that is constructive, positive, useful, and non-toxic. There isn’t really a lot of room for bitching about who is worse, Sanders or Clinton or whoever.
    As far as votes go, it’s gotta be POTUS Ham Sandwich. Full stop.
    As far as daily life, find useful constructive things to do, and do them. Find the things that keep you from feeling like every damned thing in life is going to shit, and immerse yourself in those.
    Be your best self, and rise above. If you can do that, you can make a shitty situation ever so slightly better. Maybe even a lot better.
    If you can’t do that, then you can’t make anything better.
    Try to quit giving that toxic SOB any more room in your head than you need to. Focus on sanity.
    This year is going to be a freaking puke funnel of rancid crap, 24/7. Don’t get caught up in it.
    This is actually kind of an emergency. Focus on keeping your head in the best possible place. Focus on making things better.

  318. Here is the reality:
    Trump is the fucking Joker, as POTUS. He has no regard or respect for the office he holds or for the institutions and traditions he represents. He’s going to do whatever the hell he wants and whatever he can get away with, and so far that has proven to be a remarkable amount.
    I don’t really get the thought process of the folks who support him, and I’m not sure I care to. All of that is on them.
    The guardrails that our form of government normally provides to keep natural-born chaos monkeys like Trump in bounds have proven ineffective, because they rely on other parties acting responsibly, and those other parties have failed to do so. There’s an election in nine months, but that could go either way. Even if Trump loses, the toxic freaking national id he has exposed and exploited is still going to be there.
    This country is kind of fucked up at the moment. Maybe we’ll improve, maybe we won’t. At some point we probably will, but who knows.
    People who think things are going south need to focus on whatever they can find that is constructive, positive, useful, and non-toxic. There isn’t really a lot of room for bitching about who is worse, Sanders or Clinton or whoever.
    As far as votes go, it’s gotta be POTUS Ham Sandwich. Full stop.
    As far as daily life, find useful constructive things to do, and do them. Find the things that keep you from feeling like every damned thing in life is going to shit, and immerse yourself in those.
    Be your best self, and rise above. If you can do that, you can make a shitty situation ever so slightly better. Maybe even a lot better.
    If you can’t do that, then you can’t make anything better.
    Try to quit giving that toxic SOB any more room in your head than you need to. Focus on sanity.
    This year is going to be a freaking puke funnel of rancid crap, 24/7. Don’t get caught up in it.
    This is actually kind of an emergency. Focus on keeping your head in the best possible place. Focus on making things better.

  319. if Vegas and 538 are indicators, Sanders is now the Dem frontrunner
    history:
    the Dem winner of Iowa has won the nomination, last four times: Clinton, Obama, Kerry, Clinton.
    the GOP winner of Iowa has not won the nomination, last three times: Cruz, Santorum, Huckabee.
    Iowa don’t mean shit.

  320. if Vegas and 538 are indicators, Sanders is now the Dem frontrunner
    history:
    the Dem winner of Iowa has won the nomination, last four times: Clinton, Obama, Kerry, Clinton.
    the GOP winner of Iowa has not won the nomination, last three times: Cruz, Santorum, Huckabee.
    Iowa don’t mean shit.

  321. WRS.
    Also, Donald’s position seems entirely reasonable, irrespective of our politics being somewhat different.

  322. WRS.
    Also, Donald’s position seems entirely reasonable, irrespective of our politics being somewhat different.

  323. WRS.
    Also, Donald’s position seems entirely reasonable, irrespective of our politics being somewhat different.
    Seconded.

  324. WRS.
    Also, Donald’s position seems entirely reasonable, irrespective of our politics being somewhat different.
    Seconded.

  325. Now just wash your hands…
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/risa.13438
    …Increasing the level of hand cleanliness to 60% at all airports in the world would have a reduction of 69% in the impact of a potential disease spreading. We investigate how those results change for different hand‐washing model parameters and we perform sensitivity analysis of the epidemiological model parameters showing that our results are quite robust with respect to the infectiousness of the disease….

  326. Now just wash your hands…
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/risa.13438
    …Increasing the level of hand cleanliness to 60% at all airports in the world would have a reduction of 69% in the impact of a potential disease spreading. We investigate how those results change for different hand‐washing model parameters and we perform sensitivity analysis of the epidemiological model parameters showing that our results are quite robust with respect to the infectiousness of the disease….

  327. With respect, I can’t endorse WRS said this time around:
    “Be your best self, and rise above. If you can do that, you can make a shitty situation ever so slightly better. Maybe even a lot better.
    If you can’t do that, then you can’t make anything better.
    Try to quit giving that toxic SOB any more room in your head than you need to. Focus on sanity.
    This is actually kind of an emergency. Focus on keeping your head in the best possible place. Focus on making things better.”
    It is true that Anne Frank became her best self as she and her family hid from and forestalled their savage doom at the hands of far right-wing conservatism, nationalism, racism, and anti-Semitism. She even managed a sweet crush on a boy before she went into hiding as recounted in her diary. She had hobbies and other distractions among the small joys allowed her under the circumstances.
    Feast your eyes on this chart of the German CDAX during the 1930s. Focus on that two-year long flat-to-down-line consolidation roughly from 1937 into 1939 fantastically labeled “Worries that Hitler may have gone too far.”
    When it was clear the murder of Jews and the millions of others was proceeding apace, German and foreign investors, many American fascists, as well, I suspect, resumed buying with both blood-stained murderous hands.
    THINK about that.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=german+dax+chart+during+1930s&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=3N1ONTORg08jNM%253A%252Cb92ki73cC7N8OM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kTThKzHthZbf9snXmPo_lZ4mEiN1g&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi3uOfujMDnAhVMG80KHXhmBwoQ9QEwAXoECAoQBw#imgrc=3N1ONTORg08jNM:
    We just passed through that similar little fraught interregnum of fear that Trump “might have gone too far”.
    The fools and filth bought off by tax cuts and soaring stock market prices have relaxed now.
    Anne Frank should have escaped her hideaway and died killing and butchering, and slaughtering the stinking, evil profiteers of Hitler’s beastiality.
    “This year is going to be a freaking puke funnel of rancid crap, 24/7. Don’t get caught up in it.”
    And beyond. Trump will win in a landslide. Think about the fact that these monstrous filth will win despite the their stealing of votes and preventing good people from even getting to the polls, the latter of which would be the occasion for savage killing violence in countries not mesmerized by fucking bullshit.
    And if he doesn’t, the 62 million will murder all of us anyway.
    Yes, hold your fire until the puke is at chin level.
    Swallow as much of the rancid crap as possible until it begins to taste good to the rest of us outside the puke and crap-loving 63 million as well.
    I think a new nuclear arms race with Russia, China, and Iran is a good thing for all the wrong reasons.

  328. With respect, I can’t endorse WRS said this time around:
    “Be your best self, and rise above. If you can do that, you can make a shitty situation ever so slightly better. Maybe even a lot better.
    If you can’t do that, then you can’t make anything better.
    Try to quit giving that toxic SOB any more room in your head than you need to. Focus on sanity.
    This is actually kind of an emergency. Focus on keeping your head in the best possible place. Focus on making things better.”
    It is true that Anne Frank became her best self as she and her family hid from and forestalled their savage doom at the hands of far right-wing conservatism, nationalism, racism, and anti-Semitism. She even managed a sweet crush on a boy before she went into hiding as recounted in her diary. She had hobbies and other distractions among the small joys allowed her under the circumstances.
    Feast your eyes on this chart of the German CDAX during the 1930s. Focus on that two-year long flat-to-down-line consolidation roughly from 1937 into 1939 fantastically labeled “Worries that Hitler may have gone too far.”
    When it was clear the murder of Jews and the millions of others was proceeding apace, German and foreign investors, many American fascists, as well, I suspect, resumed buying with both blood-stained murderous hands.
    THINK about that.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=german+dax+chart+during+1930s&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=3N1ONTORg08jNM%253A%252Cb92ki73cC7N8OM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kTThKzHthZbf9snXmPo_lZ4mEiN1g&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi3uOfujMDnAhVMG80KHXhmBwoQ9QEwAXoECAoQBw#imgrc=3N1ONTORg08jNM:
    We just passed through that similar little fraught interregnum of fear that Trump “might have gone too far”.
    The fools and filth bought off by tax cuts and soaring stock market prices have relaxed now.
    Anne Frank should have escaped her hideaway and died killing and butchering, and slaughtering the stinking, evil profiteers of Hitler’s beastiality.
    “This year is going to be a freaking puke funnel of rancid crap, 24/7. Don’t get caught up in it.”
    And beyond. Trump will win in a landslide. Think about the fact that these monstrous filth will win despite the their stealing of votes and preventing good people from even getting to the polls, the latter of which would be the occasion for savage killing violence in countries not mesmerized by fucking bullshit.
    And if he doesn’t, the 62 million will murder all of us anyway.
    Yes, hold your fire until the puke is at chin level.
    Swallow as much of the rancid crap as possible until it begins to taste good to the rest of us outside the puke and crap-loving 63 million as well.
    I think a new nuclear arms race with Russia, China, and Iran is a good thing for all the wrong reasons.

  329. It is true that Anne Frank became her best self as she and her family hid from and forestalled their savage doom
    I’m not Anne Frank. You’re not Anne Frank. Most likely nobody reading this is Anne Frank.
    There is most definitely a point at which “being your best self” is no longer a sufficient response. You think we’re there now. I don’t. I’m not naive, I just don’t think we’re there.
    Short of being at or beyond that point, I can’t justify violence toward other people.

  330. It is true that Anne Frank became her best self as she and her family hid from and forestalled their savage doom
    I’m not Anne Frank. You’re not Anne Frank. Most likely nobody reading this is Anne Frank.
    There is most definitely a point at which “being your best self” is no longer a sufficient response. You think we’re there now. I don’t. I’m not naive, I just don’t think we’re there.
    Short of being at or beyond that point, I can’t justify violence toward other people.

  331. What russell said.
    Are things bad? Yes.
    Are they to the point of being dire? No. (And, God willing, won’t get to that point. Not that there aren’t people working to get there. But not there yet by any means.)

  332. What russell said.
    Are things bad? Yes.
    Are they to the point of being dire? No. (And, God willing, won’t get to that point. Not that there aren’t people working to get there. But not there yet by any means.)

  333. California is being part of Super Tuesday, and again this year I’m being a poll worker. Today was training day.
    Fun factoids:
    Last general election, some 600,000 voted in this county. (They are expecting more like 650,000 this time.)
    Total number of people voting twice: 13. Out of 600,000 ballots — what a game changer!
    All of those were people who voted by mail. Then went into panic mode, lest their vote not make it in on time. So they went down to their polling place and submitted a provisional ballot — yes, we have a process for that.
    Good to know just how bad the double voting problem actually is. Ah, voter fraud….

  334. California is being part of Super Tuesday, and again this year I’m being a poll worker. Today was training day.
    Fun factoids:
    Last general election, some 600,000 voted in this county. (They are expecting more like 650,000 this time.)
    Total number of people voting twice: 13. Out of 600,000 ballots — what a game changer!
    All of those were people who voted by mail. Then went into panic mode, lest their vote not make it in on time. So they went down to their polling place and submitted a provisional ballot — yes, we have a process for that.
    Good to know just how bad the double voting problem actually is. Ah, voter fraud….

  337. Again WRS.
    But certainly, things are bad. I now read that Lt Col Vindman is being moved from the White House in open retaliation for his testimony. I don’t know how his father feels, but I’m guessing many people are unsure how safe it is to go openly against the President.

  338. Again WRS.
    But certainly, things are bad. I now read that Lt Col Vindman is being moved from the White House in open retaliation for his testimony. I don’t know how his father feels, but I’m guessing many people are unsure how safe it is to go openly against the President.

  341. Things are bad. What russell said is good advice until Tuesday, November 3, giving democracy one more chance. Thereafter, we will have to reassess.
    I knew that things would be bad when the 2010 midterm elections happened, but I never imagined that they would get this bad. And it is certain that they will get much, much worse before November, and deeply in the hole after that if we don’t get a D trifecta. I am pessimistic.
    I agree with bobbyp. We need a Democratic leader who is actually able to organize a movement that transcends politics – that mobilizes people to take to the streets to shut things down. That’s the only way forward, and it would not be without casualties.

  342. Things are bad. What russell said is good advice until Tuesday, November 3, giving democracy one more chance. Thereafter, we will have to reassess.
    I knew that things would be bad when the 2010 midterm elections happened, but I never imagined that they would get this bad. And it is certain that they will get much, much worse before November, and deeply in the hole after that if we don’t get a D trifecta. I am pessimistic.
    I agree with bobbyp. We need a Democratic leader who is actually able to organize a movement that transcends politics – that mobilizes people to take to the streets to shut things down. That’s the only way forward, and it would not be without casualties.

  343. “I just don’t think we’re there.”
    I find nothing at all objectionable in your comment. But I think you are being conservative in the best sense of the word.
    I am being conservative in the worst sense of the word, by getting ready to get ready to harm the attackers like a gun-loving NRA member, for example, and like a Trump conservative, relishing the day when I get even good and hard and with the full deadly power of the government behind me to get even.
    Make me an enemy I say to the “conservative” movement”, and you will have an enemy that introduces you to the grave.
    Not that either of us resemble in any malignant way what passes for conservative in 2020 America.

  344. “I just don’t think we’re there.”
    I find nothing at all objectionable in your comment. But I think you are being conservative in the best sense of the word.
    I am being conservative in the worst sense of the word, by getting ready to get ready to harm the attackers like a gun-loving NRA member, for example, and like a Trump conservative, relishing the day when I get even good and hard and with the full deadly power of the government behind me to get even.
    Make me an enemy I say to the “conservative” movement”, and you will have an enemy that introduces you to the grave.
    Not that either of us resemble in any malignant way what passes for conservative in 2020 America.

  345. How would anyone think Vindman could continue to work in the WH? The concept of how he could be an effective part of the team escapes me.

  346. How would anyone think Vindman could continue to work in the WH? The concept of how he could be an effective part of the team escapes me.

  349. In Russia, my act of expressing concern to the chain of command in an official and private channel would have severe personal and professional repercussions. And offering public testimony involving the president would surely cost me my life.

    be happy you still have your life, Alex.

  350. In Russia, my act of expressing concern to the chain of command in an official and private channel would have severe personal and professional repercussions. And offering public testimony involving the president would surely cost me my life.

    be happy you still have your life, Alex.

  351. What bothers me is that so many of the things this (mal)administration is doing won’t manifest themselves in noticeable ways soon enough for people to place the blame where it will belong. When financial deregulation results in inevitable mayhem, when environmental deregulation results in cancer deaths and accelerating global warming, when the debt being incurred is used to slash safety-net programs (already happening, but not yet affecting enough people for most to notice or care), it will be someone else’s fault and someone else’s problem.
    It’s easy to have a strong economy, for some amount of time, if you slash taxes and deregulate, even when your deficit spending doesn’t create long-term value in the forms of infrastructure, education, and public health.

  352. What bothers me is that so many of the things this (mal)administration is doing won’t manifest themselves in noticeable ways soon enough for people to place the blame where it will belong. When financial deregulation results in inevitable mayhem, when environmental deregulation results in cancer deaths and accelerating global warming, when the debt being incurred is used to slash safety-net programs (already happening, but not yet affecting enough people for most to notice or care), it will be someone else’s fault and someone else’s problem.
    It’s easy to have a strong economy, for some amount of time, if you slash taxes and deregulate, even when your deficit spending doesn’t create long-term value in the forms of infrastructure, education, and public health.

  357. I forgot about our lack of a properly-functioning state department. A hollowed-out diplomatic corps and tattered alliances should work out swimmingly when whatever shit hits the fan.

  358. I forgot about our lack of a properly-functioning state department. A hollowed-out diplomatic corps and tattered alliances should work out swimmingly when whatever shit hits the fan.

  359. How would anyone think Vindman could continue to work in the WH? The concept of how he could be an effective part of the team escapes me.
    He had laready indicated that he would be leaving at the end of the month. This was just a matter of Trump seizing the opportunity to fire someone before his resignation took effect.

  360. How would anyone think Vindman could continue to work in the WH? The concept of how he could be an effective part of the team escapes me.
    He had laready indicated that he would be leaving at the end of the month. This was just a matter of Trump seizing the opportunity to fire someone before his resignation took effect.

  361. All of those were people who voted by mail. Then went into panic mode, lest their vote not make it in on time. So they went down to their polling place and submitted a provisional ballot — yes, we have a process for that.
    And presumably, only one of their two ballots was actually counted. At least that’s the way it works here in mail-in Colorado. If your mail-in ballot is received in time, the provisional ballot is discarded.
    I find it particularly interesting these days that the large majority of ballots cast in 2020 in the Census Bureau’s 13-state western region will be cast by mail. Almost certainly more than two-thirds. There are five states where every registered voter gets a mail-in ballot: Colorado, Hawaii, Oregon, Utah*, and Washington. Four with permanent no-excuse absentee ballot lists: Arizona, California, Montana, and Nevada. As best I can tell, percentage of votes cast by mail in those states are Arizona 75-80%, California 65-70%, and Montana about 50%. Nevada’s permanent list is new** this year.
    * The decision in Utah is made county-by-county. The last two counties are expected to switch to vote-by-mail in 2020.
    ** Lots of Californians have moved to Nevada. I have to wonder if they got there and said, “What do you mean there’s no permanent absentee ballot list?”

  362. All of those were people who voted by mail. Then went into panic mode, lest their vote not make it in on time. So they went down to their polling place and submitted a provisional ballot — yes, we have a process for that.
    And presumably, only one of their two ballots was actually counted. At least that’s the way it works here in mail-in Colorado. If your mail-in ballot is received in time, the provisional ballot is discarded.
    I find it particularly interesting these days that the large majority of ballots cast in 2020 in the Census Bureau’s 13-state western region will be cast by mail. Almost certainly more than two-thirds. There are five states where every registered voter gets a mail-in ballot: Colorado, Hawaii, Oregon, Utah*, and Washington. Four with permanent no-excuse absentee ballot lists: Arizona, California, Montana, and Nevada. As best I can tell, percentage of votes cast by mail in those states are Arizona 75-80%, California 65-70%, and Montana about 50%. Nevada’s permanent list is new** this year.
    * The decision in Utah is made county-by-county. The last two counties are expected to switch to vote-by-mail in 2020.
    ** Lots of Californians have moved to Nevada. I have to wonder if they got there and said, “What do you mean there’s no permanent absentee ballot list?”

  363. I’d say they are a good deal badder than many reasonable people are willing to admit.
    I’ll ‘admit’ that we’re on a path to authoritarian kleptocracy. The main thing that keeps us from sliding into Pinochet or Franco territory is that the armed forces have retained their independence from the political process.
    So, that’s how it looks to me.
    But I think you are being conservative in the best sense of the word.
    Me, too. And not for the first time. Funny, that.
    How would anyone think Vindman could continue to work in the WH?
    Nobody would think that, because Trump is the POTUS, and nobody who is publicly disloyal to Trump can be allowed to work there.

  364. I’d say they are a good deal badder than many reasonable people are willing to admit.
    I’ll ‘admit’ that we’re on a path to authoritarian kleptocracy. The main thing that keeps us from sliding into Pinochet or Franco territory is that the armed forces have retained their independence from the political process.
    So, that’s how it looks to me.
    But I think you are being conservative in the best sense of the word.
    Me, too. And not for the first time. Funny, that.
    How would anyone think Vindman could continue to work in the WH?
    Nobody would think that, because Trump is the POTUS, and nobody who is publicly disloyal to Trump can be allowed to work there.

  367. To counter Huawei, U.S. could take ‘controlling stake’ in Ericsson, Nokia: attorney general
    Those are not US companies. They are publicly traded, but they have market cap of about $27 and $25 billion, respectively.
    How the hell would this work, exactly?

  368. To counter Huawei, U.S. could take ‘controlling stake’ in Ericsson, Nokia: attorney general
    Those are not US companies. They are publicly traded, but they have market cap of about $27 and $25 billion, respectively.
    How the hell would this work, exactly?

  371. As best I can tell, percentage of votes cast by mail in those states are Arizona 75-80%, California 65-70%, and Montana about 50%.
    In my (Californian) county, in person ballots were 150,000 out of 600,000. So we’re at 75%. And rising.

  372. As best I can tell, percentage of votes cast by mail in those states are Arizona 75-80%, California 65-70%, and Montana about 50%.
    In my (Californian) county, in person ballots were 150,000 out of 600,000. So we’re at 75%. And rising.

  373. The main thing that keeps us from sliding into Pinochet or Franco territory is that the armed forces have retained their independence from the political process.
    I would counter that the main things that keep the slide a bit sticky is our tattered, but still common democratic virtues, and the tradition of non-violent succession of power when the reins change hands. Both Chile and Spain failed in that regard.
    The military can, and most likely will, be subjected to the same rotting process that has befallen other branches of government (cough, cough, judiciary) and federal agencies such as State, Energy, Labor, well, the list goes on. How well can they be expected to resist?
    The bolshevik conservative movement prides itself on denying the very legitimacy of the opposition. Given the realities of a two-party system, this is something that may not endure.
    I have my fingers crossed.

  374. The main thing that keeps us from sliding into Pinochet or Franco territory is that the armed forces have retained their independence from the political process.
    I would counter that the main things that keep the slide a bit sticky is our tattered, but still common democratic virtues, and the tradition of non-violent succession of power when the reins change hands. Both Chile and Spain failed in that regard.
    The military can, and most likely will, be subjected to the same rotting process that has befallen other branches of government (cough, cough, judiciary) and federal agencies such as State, Energy, Labor, well, the list goes on. How well can they be expected to resist?
    The bolshevik conservative movement prides itself on denying the very legitimacy of the opposition. Given the realities of a two-party system, this is something that may not endure.
    I have my fingers crossed.

  375. How would anyone think Vindman could continue to work in the WH?
    I don’t believe anybody did think that, but why the frog march out the front door under security escort? Why not a pink slip, two weeks severance, and a nice watch?

  376. How would anyone think Vindman could continue to work in the WH?
    I don’t believe anybody did think that, but why the frog march out the front door under security escort? Why not a pink slip, two weeks severance, and a nice watch?

  377. why the frog march out the front door under security escort?
    Because that’s the best way to threaten anyone else who might be tempted to follow the law and, for example, respond to a subpoena. Can’t have that and work for Trump.

  378. why the frog march out the front door under security escort?
    Because that’s the best way to threaten anyone else who might be tempted to follow the law and, for example, respond to a subpoena. Can’t have that and work for Trump.

  379. Team?
    Is that what we’re calling it?
    Bootlicking shitheel cowards and lackeys, more like.
    There will be a team one day, a real fucking goddamned dangerous team, to wipe the Republican Trump Party off the face of the Earth.
    It will consist of real American patriots who have experience goddamned killing those who need fucking killing in this country:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAsuKikgDag
    “sliding into Franco territory:
    Many of the f-g-hating fascist filth over at The American conservative hold Franco and his methods in his esteem.
    As I’m sure cuck Attorney General Barr does as well.
    As for Pinochet, Milton Friedman and other so-called American conservatives who enabled and participated in the General’s reign of genocidal terror should have been extradited to Chile and executed.
    Truth. No fucking reconciliation.

  380. Team?
    Is that what we’re calling it?
    Bootlicking shitheel cowards and lackeys, more like.
    There will be a team one day, a real fucking goddamned dangerous team, to wipe the Republican Trump Party off the face of the Earth.
    It will consist of real American patriots who have experience goddamned killing those who need fucking killing in this country:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAsuKikgDag
    “sliding into Franco territory:
    Many of the f-g-hating fascist filth over at The American conservative hold Franco and his methods in his esteem.
    As I’m sure cuck Attorney General Barr does as well.
    As for Pinochet, Milton Friedman and other so-called American conservatives who enabled and participated in the General’s reign of genocidal terror should have been extradited to Chile and executed.
    Truth. No fucking reconciliation.

  381. I would counter that the main things that keep the slide a bit sticky is our tattered, but still common democratic virtues, and the tradition of non-violent succession of power when the reins change hands.
    Basically agreed. But I also think that, absent the independence of the military, our common democratic virtues would not endure very long.
    The (R)’s in the Senate and no small part of the judiciary and executive have basically rolled over like dogs begging not to be hit. Fortunately, they don’t have tanks.
    Many of the f-g-hating fascist filth over at The American conservative hold Franco and his methods in his esteem.
    Back in my hanging-out-at-redstate-days, a pretty generous handful of my counterparties thought the policies and tactics of our fascist clients in South America – Pinochet et al – were more than fine. And, said so, more than clearly.
    There aren’t all that many of those folks, but they punch above their weight. Heads up!
    I’m not naive about this crap, I just don’t think we’re there yet. We could get there, I guess. Hope we don’t.

  382. I would counter that the main things that keep the slide a bit sticky is our tattered, but still common democratic virtues, and the tradition of non-violent succession of power when the reins change hands.
    Basically agreed. But I also think that, absent the independence of the military, our common democratic virtues would not endure very long.
    The (R)’s in the Senate and no small part of the judiciary and executive have basically rolled over like dogs begging not to be hit. Fortunately, they don’t have tanks.
    Many of the f-g-hating fascist filth over at The American conservative hold Franco and his methods in his esteem.
    Back in my hanging-out-at-redstate-days, a pretty generous handful of my counterparties thought the policies and tactics of our fascist clients in South America – Pinochet et al – were more than fine. And, said so, more than clearly.
    There aren’t all that many of those folks, but they punch above their weight. Heads up!
    I’m not naive about this crap, I just don’t think we’re there yet. We could get there, I guess. Hope we don’t.

  385. And… Trump fires Vindman’s brother, too.
    Why? Because he’s a malicious, vindictive SOB.
    He’s gonna drag all of his supporters down into the gutter with him. Just to watch them degrade themselves, whether they know it or not, or whether they care or not.
    Good times. Enjoy those tax cuts.

  386. And… Trump fires Vindman’s brother, too.
    Why? Because he’s a malicious, vindictive SOB.
    He’s gonna drag all of his supporters down into the gutter with him. Just to watch them degrade themselves, whether they know it or not, or whether they care or not.
    Good times. Enjoy those tax cuts.

  387. All authoritarians use the threat of punishing the families of “traitors” as a deterrent to those considering stepping out of line. So of course he fired Vindman’s brother.

  388. All authoritarians use the threat of punishing the families of “traitors” as a deterrent to those considering stepping out of line. So of course he fired Vindman’s brother.

  391. And… Trump fires Vindman’s brother, too.
    Yes, we’re there. Please let me know what “there” means, and how many bodies have to pile up before we understand that they’ve brought it.

  392. And… Trump fires Vindman’s brother, too.
    Yes, we’re there. Please let me know what “there” means, and how many bodies have to pile up before we understand that they’ve brought it.

  393. Yes, we’re there. Please let me know what “there” means, and how many bodies have to pile up before we understand that they’ve brought it.
    Also, how many tools will we lose to fight back before we realize that we’re losing them? We’re turning into ant armies.

  394. Yes, we’re there. Please let me know what “there” means, and how many bodies have to pile up before we understand that they’ve brought it.
    Also, how many tools will we lose to fight back before we realize that we’re losing them? We’re turning into ant armies.

  399. A million bucks just doesn’t go as far as it used to
    Is it that? Or just that Trump welshes on his debts whenever possible?

  400. A million bucks just doesn’t go as far as it used to
    Is it that? Or just that Trump welshes on his debts whenever possible?

  401. I don’t believe anybody did think that, but why the frog march out the front door…
    kayfabe.
    Trump is pretending to suplex his enemies, for the benefit of his idiot base.
    cheer, rubes! cheer! MAGA! dipshits!

  402. I don’t believe anybody did think that, but why the frog march out the front door…
    kayfabe.
    Trump is pretending to suplex his enemies, for the benefit of his idiot base.
    cheer, rubes! cheer! MAGA! dipshits!

  405. The question, when this White House puts out something like this, is always: Was this someone on the inside committing a little sabotage? Or was it just this administration’s usual massive incompetence? It says something that both explanations are entirely possible.

  406. The question, when this White House puts out something like this, is always: Was this someone on the inside committing a little sabotage? Or was it just this administration’s usual massive incompetence? It says something that both explanations are entirely possible.

  413. I feel like that Trump photo should replace Washington’s face o the dollar bill, if only they can get the subtleties of the tone and color just right.
    On Carville, the problem is that there is no unified set of beliefs amongst those who want Trump out and what Carville says might drive away others. And of course Rod Dreher, who loves Carville’s comment, has been spending the past year talking himself into voting for Trump while hating him because of the priest killings in the Spanish Civil War and because liberal soft totalitarianism will destroy religious liberty and stuff like that.
    The main reason for reading TAC is and continues to be Daniel Larison, who consistently writes as though issues actually matter. He has been extremely critical of Trump and his latest post is complimentary towards Sanders and Warren. Well, you can also read TAC for occasional other decent articles, but also just to see how that subset of the political spectrum thinks.

  414. I feel like that Trump photo should replace Washington’s face o the dollar bill, if only they can get the subtleties of the tone and color just right.
    On Carville, the problem is that there is no unified set of beliefs amongst those who want Trump out and what Carville says might drive away others. And of course Rod Dreher, who loves Carville’s comment, has been spending the past year talking himself into voting for Trump while hating him because of the priest killings in the Spanish Civil War and because liberal soft totalitarianism will destroy religious liberty and stuff like that.
    The main reason for reading TAC is and continues to be Daniel Larison, who consistently writes as though issues actually matter. He has been extremely critical of Trump and his latest post is complimentary towards Sanders and Warren. Well, you can also read TAC for occasional other decent articles, but also just to see how that subset of the political spectrum thinks.

  415. Other Carville: “All this bullying would stop if people would just hand over their lunch money.”
    Nobody has been talking about Trump cutting Medicare or cutting taxes for the wealthy???
    In the age of for-profit prisons, mandatory sentencing, and whatever the hell defines an “enemy combatant”, being able to cast a vote from a prison cell is a bridge too far?
    Maybe it is for some, but AFAIC, Carville can join Chris Matthews in the unhinged-old-man-yells-at-cloud corner.
    I’m going to vote my preference in the primary. Whoever wins the nomination is, by definition, the Democratic Party. And whatever broken-glass-crawling, nose-holding, or other gymnastics it may require, I’m gonna vote for that person in November.

  416. Other Carville: “All this bullying would stop if people would just hand over their lunch money.”
    Nobody has been talking about Trump cutting Medicare or cutting taxes for the wealthy???
    In the age of for-profit prisons, mandatory sentencing, and whatever the hell defines an “enemy combatant”, being able to cast a vote from a prison cell is a bridge too far?
    Maybe it is for some, but AFAIC, Carville can join Chris Matthews in the unhinged-old-man-yells-at-cloud corner.
    I’m going to vote my preference in the primary. Whoever wins the nomination is, by definition, the Democratic Party. And whatever broken-glass-crawling, nose-holding, or other gymnastics it may require, I’m gonna vote for that person in November.

  417. “ And of course Rod Dreher, who loves Carville’s comment, has been spending the past year talking himself into voting for Trump while hating him because of the priest killings in the Spanish Civil War and because liberal soft totalitarianism will destroy religious liberty and stuff like that.”
    That was unclear. Most of that was intentional, meant as a reflection of Dreher, who annoys me sometimes, but it sounded like Dreher was blaming Trump for leftist atrocities in the Spanish Civil War. That would be absurd. No, Rod thinks that the priest killings are a warning of what could happen here, not because it would happen that way, but, you know, bathrooms and wedding cakes and drag queen story hours and whatnot.
    There actually are religious liberty issues to be discussed when it comes to what businesses and private colleges should or should not be allowed to do, which he could discuss calmly but Rod has a giant sense of melodrama so you get posts about Spanish history and life under communism and so forth.

  418. “ And of course Rod Dreher, who loves Carville’s comment, has been spending the past year talking himself into voting for Trump while hating him because of the priest killings in the Spanish Civil War and because liberal soft totalitarianism will destroy religious liberty and stuff like that.”
    That was unclear. Most of that was intentional, meant as a reflection of Dreher, who annoys me sometimes, but it sounded like Dreher was blaming Trump for leftist atrocities in the Spanish Civil War. That would be absurd. No, Rod thinks that the priest killings are a warning of what could happen here, not because it would happen that way, but, you know, bathrooms and wedding cakes and drag queen story hours and whatnot.
    There actually are religious liberty issues to be discussed when it comes to what businesses and private colleges should or should not be allowed to do, which he could discuss calmly but Rod has a giant sense of melodrama so you get posts about Spanish history and life under communism and so forth.

  421. Pete’s right too.
    As is Donald regarding Larison and Dreher.
    Let me handle Dreher. I share his giant sense of melodrama fortified with egregious historical examples (as Basil Fawlty would say: “This is EXACTLY how Nazi Germany got started!”, over a complaint about a dinner order.), which is the only way to take on conservatives … in their very own self-regarding bullshit patois and cadences.
    My comments half the time don’t make it thru moderation on his threads, unless they in some way compliment his ravings.
    Very Trump-like.
    If Trump’s face goes on the currency, this is the only type of transaction that will be legal in America:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9udNrOh5DyA
    It IS already in the stock market.
    “Buy Tesla”, screams the analyst as he pounds the table.
    “What’s your price target?”
    “$685 per share!”
    “The stock is trading at $935 per share as we speak.”
    “Then you are already up $250 on the trade.”
    “I didn’t buy it yet!”
    “Well then, you are an unAmerican loser and are probably on Medicare, you socialist pansy!”

  422. Pete’s right too.
    As is Donald regarding Larison and Dreher.
    Let me handle Dreher. I share his giant sense of melodrama fortified with egregious historical examples (as Basil Fawlty would say: “This is EXACTLY how Nazi Germany got started!”, over a complaint about a dinner order.), which is the only way to take on conservatives … in their very own self-regarding bullshit patois and cadences.
    My comments half the time don’t make it thru moderation on his threads, unless they in some way compliment his ravings.
    Very Trump-like.
    If Trump’s face goes on the currency, this is the only type of transaction that will be legal in America:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9udNrOh5DyA
    It IS already in the stock market.
    “Buy Tesla”, screams the analyst as he pounds the table.
    “What’s your price target?”
    “$685 per share!”
    “The stock is trading at $935 per share as we speak.”
    “Then you are already up $250 on the trade.”
    “I didn’t buy it yet!”
    “Well then, you are an unAmerican loser and are probably on Medicare, you socialist pansy!”

  423. If you told Dreher the Spanish priests during the Civil War were murdered because they suffered the little Spanish children to cum onto them, he might go along with the killings.
    Dreher is working up a poisonous bolus of unjustified victimized hate against the LGBT “community”, and as with all religious conservatives for the past 235 years who turn their hate politically against minority groups who have in turn been kept in their place and discriminated against forever by religious conservatives, I kinda want to fulfill their wishes to finally be goddamned victims.

  424. If you told Dreher the Spanish priests during the Civil War were murdered because they suffered the little Spanish children to cum onto them, he might go along with the killings.
    Dreher is working up a poisonous bolus of unjustified victimized hate against the LGBT “community”, and as with all religious conservatives for the past 235 years who turn their hate politically against minority groups who have in turn been kept in their place and discriminated against forever by religious conservatives, I kinda want to fulfill their wishes to finally be goddamned victims.

  425. He’s not wrong.
    No, he’s not, but the fact that he is not points to the continuing inability of Americans to be candid about basically anything.
    Everybody wants to nurture their own personal sense of victimhood. Which means we’re all prey to whoever tells us that yes, in fact, we are actually getting screwed.
    To take one example from the article, Warren’s language was all good for one listener until she talked about “the race stuff”. That’s a loser, because nobody wants to hear about “the race stuff”.
    This is the United Freaking States of America. There is no aspect of our history or ground reality that is not soaking in “the race stuff”. We can’t talk about that, without alienating our precious swing voters?
    If you were to ask me which (D) is most likely to actually do a good job of it once in office, I’d probably say Klobuchar. Tough but fair, just like the Piranha brothers. Righteous goals, but pragmatic means. Solid record as an effective legislator, which means she knows how to actually get shit done.
    She will not be the nominee.
    Biden is popular because a lot of people want somebody who is freaking normal.
    Warren and Sanders are popular because a lot of people are getting royally screwed, and they want to stop getting royally screwed.
    Butigieg is popular because Warren and Sanders scare the hell out of a lot of people.
    It’s hard to say what qualities any one person would have to bring to the table in order to be appealing to all of the various constituencies that make up Everybody Who Fucking Hates POTUS Trump. Which actually is a majority of the country.
    Trump has figured out what makes his base happy. They want to make money and they want to be told that their sense of themselves as put-upon, disrespected regular people is completely legitimate.
    Those themes are not a great basis for effective national governance, but he’s not that interested in effective national governance.
    I don’t know that there are any such universal themes for everyone else.
    If Carville doesn’t have something constructive to say about the (D) candidates, then I’ll thank him to STFU. He had his day, and that was 25 or 30 years ago now. Clinton-style “triangulation” is probably not gonna get it done anymore.
    Pete says:

    I’m going to vote my preference in the primary. Whoever wins the nomination is, by definition, the Democratic Party. And whatever broken-glass-crawling, nose-holding, or other gymnastics it may require, I’m gonna vote for that person in November.

    Right on.

  426. He’s not wrong.
    No, he’s not, but the fact that he is not points to the continuing inability of Americans to be candid about basically anything.
    Everybody wants to nurture their own personal sense of victimhood. Which means we’re all prey to whoever tells us that yes, in fact, we are actually getting screwed.
    To take one example from the article, Warren’s language was all good for one listener until she talked about “the race stuff”. That’s a loser, because nobody wants to hear about “the race stuff”.
    This is the United Freaking States of America. There is no aspect of our history or ground reality that is not soaking in “the race stuff”. We can’t talk about that, without alienating our precious swing voters?
    If you were to ask me which (D) is most likely to actually do a good job of it once in office, I’d probably say Klobuchar. Tough but fair, just like the Piranha brothers. Righteous goals, but pragmatic means. Solid record as an effective legislator, which means she knows how to actually get shit done.
    She will not be the nominee.
    Biden is popular because a lot of people want somebody who is freaking normal.
    Warren and Sanders are popular because a lot of people are getting royally screwed, and they want to stop getting royally screwed.
    Butigieg is popular because Warren and Sanders scare the hell out of a lot of people.
    It’s hard to say what qualities any one person would have to bring to the table in order to be appealing to all of the various constituencies that make up Everybody Who Fucking Hates POTUS Trump. Which actually is a majority of the country.
    Trump has figured out what makes his base happy. They want to make money and they want to be told that their sense of themselves as put-upon, disrespected regular people is completely legitimate.
    Those themes are not a great basis for effective national governance, but he’s not that interested in effective national governance.
    I don’t know that there are any such universal themes for everyone else.
    If Carville doesn’t have something constructive to say about the (D) candidates, then I’ll thank him to STFU. He had his day, and that was 25 or 30 years ago now. Clinton-style “triangulation” is probably not gonna get it done anymore.
    Pete says:

    I’m going to vote my preference in the primary. Whoever wins the nomination is, by definition, the Democratic Party. And whatever broken-glass-crawling, nose-holding, or other gymnastics it may require, I’m gonna vote for that person in November.

    Right on.

  427. Rod has a giant sense of melodrama so you get posts about Spanish history and life under communism and so forth.
    I have a good friend who I know from my days as a religious fundamentalist. We’ve both moved on from that, I ended up as a Unitarian Universalist, she’s a kind of Opus Dei-lite Catholic.
    She is, of course, a Trumpie.
    Her take on the whole “Nancy ripped up the speech!” thing is that Nancy might be under some kind of demonic influence.
    Crazy times.

  428. Rod has a giant sense of melodrama so you get posts about Spanish history and life under communism and so forth.
    I have a good friend who I know from my days as a religious fundamentalist. We’ve both moved on from that, I ended up as a Unitarian Universalist, she’s a kind of Opus Dei-lite Catholic.
    She is, of course, a Trumpie.
    Her take on the whole “Nancy ripped up the speech!” thing is that Nancy might be under some kind of demonic influence.
    Crazy times.

  433. By the way, it was Carville not Dreher I was saying was not wrong. Maybe he should STFU, but I still think he’s not wrong, and I wish there was somebody as evil, machiavellian and strategic in the current D camp.

  434. By the way, it was Carville not Dreher I was saying was not wrong. Maybe he should STFU, but I still think he’s not wrong, and I wish there was somebody as evil, machiavellian and strategic in the current D camp.

  435. there are a few evil, machiavellian and strategic people in the D camp. problem is, right now, they’re working for one campaign or the other and have their guns turned at their primary opponents.
    hopefully, we’ll get this stuff sorted out sooner rather than later and those at-least-he’s-my-asshole people can turn their guns outward again.
    (i’m kidding about hope. i know many of them won’t)

  436. there are a few evil, machiavellian and strategic people in the D camp. problem is, right now, they’re working for one campaign or the other and have their guns turned at their primary opponents.
    hopefully, we’ll get this stuff sorted out sooner rather than later and those at-least-he’s-my-asshole people can turn their guns outward again.
    (i’m kidding about hope. i know many of them won’t)

  437. problem is, right now, they’re working for one campaign or the other and have their guns turned at their primary opponents.
    Which is, after all, the way the primary system has always worked. What seems to me to be different now is how much we see sore losers. That is, people who believe (or at least act like they believe) that fellow party members, with whom their disagreements are relatively few and minor, are greater enemies than opposition party candidates, with whom they disagree about almost everything.
    A devotion to ideological purity above all else is what killed the Republican Party in this state. And (from, admittedly, a distance) it looks like what a lot of Sanders supporters want for the Democratic Party. Mind, I’m not saying they shouldn’t advocate for what they believe. But once the primaries are over, don’t repeat the mistake of 2016 and sit home and pout.

  438. problem is, right now, they’re working for one campaign or the other and have their guns turned at their primary opponents.
    Which is, after all, the way the primary system has always worked. What seems to me to be different now is how much we see sore losers. That is, people who believe (or at least act like they believe) that fellow party members, with whom their disagreements are relatively few and minor, are greater enemies than opposition party candidates, with whom they disagree about almost everything.
    A devotion to ideological purity above all else is what killed the Republican Party in this state. And (from, admittedly, a distance) it looks like what a lot of Sanders supporters want for the Democratic Party. Mind, I’m not saying they shouldn’t advocate for what they believe. But once the primaries are over, don’t repeat the mistake of 2016 and sit home and pout.

  439. she’s a kind of Opus Dei-lite Catholic.
    Would the Eastern Orthodox version of this be a Turkish Dei-…
    i’ll show myself out.

  440. she’s a kind of Opus Dei-lite Catholic.
    Would the Eastern Orthodox version of this be a Turkish Dei-…
    i’ll show myself out.

  445. there are a few evil, machiavellian and strategic people in the D camp. problem is, right now, they’re working for one campaign or the other and have their guns turned at their primary opponents.
    hopefully, we’ll get this stuff sorted out sooner rather than later and those at-least-he’s-my-asshole people can turn their guns outward again.
    cleek, and not for the first time, FYLTGE.

  446. there are a few evil, machiavellian and strategic people in the D camp. problem is, right now, they’re working for one campaign or the other and have their guns turned at their primary opponents.
    hopefully, we’ll get this stuff sorted out sooner rather than later and those at-least-he’s-my-asshole people can turn their guns outward again.
    cleek, and not for the first time, FYLTGE.

  451. “ . And (from, admittedly, a distance) it looks like what a lot of Sanders supporters want for the Democratic Party. Mind, I’m not saying they shouldn’t advocate for what they believe. But once the primaries are over, don’t repeat the mistake of 2016 and sit home and pout.”
    The differences aren’t minor, but I agree with Pete. Lesser evil logic applies on Election Day.
    And as for 2016, most Sanders voters voted for Clinton. From what I have read there was a bigger percentage of pouting Clintonites in 2008. Also, I saw a short documentary the other day about black voters in Wisconsin, I think, who voted for Obama but didn’t come out for Hillary. There can be a bunch of different reasons why people don’t adopt lesser evil voting philosophy even if I think they should.
    Things might be worse this year. There was a worrisome poll about that with Sanders people. But I also wouldn’t let the centrists off the hook if Sanders wins. People either see Trump as unacceptable or they don’t.
    From my POV, I am torn. I will definitely vote Sanders in the primary and for whatever Democrat in November, but Sanders is trying to do two things at once. He and his movement are trying to take over the Democratic Party. It is simply idiotic to brush this off as a personality cult. That is backwards. Yes, people like Sanders but it is because there are a lot of lefties who finally see the chance of a lifetime to swing the Democrats to what passes for far left in an American context and Sanders is the way to do it. We also dislike and distrust the centrist liberal press for all the reasons people like Chomsky laid out decades ago. Millions of lefties including me have internalized that critique. We don’t like the press and they don’t like us. And go ahead and say this sounds like Trump. I was reading books in media criticism over thirty years ago. Hell, I have a book on the conquest of the Philippines where much of what it talks about is how the press covered that war. It is amazingly modern. Nothing has changed.
    All that said, Sanders then has to unify the Democrats and go after Trump. I am not sure he can do it. The Democratic Party is used to a situation where a centrist liberal wins and far lefties are told to suck it up and vote. If Sanders wins, all the people in the party who hate his guts and who are in turn hated by Sanders movement types are supposed to unify and this after a primary where many have said Sanders is too far left to win. It would be a dynamic we haven’t seen since, um, 1972.
    It doesn’t make me optimistic no matter who wins. But I will shut up from July to November, not that I think it matters much what I say.

  452. “ . And (from, admittedly, a distance) it looks like what a lot of Sanders supporters want for the Democratic Party. Mind, I’m not saying they shouldn’t advocate for what they believe. But once the primaries are over, don’t repeat the mistake of 2016 and sit home and pout.”
    The differences aren’t minor, but I agree with Pete. Lesser evil logic applies on Election Day.
    And as for 2016, most Sanders voters voted for Clinton. From what I have read there was a bigger percentage of pouting Clintonites in 2008. Also, I saw a short documentary the other day about black voters in Wisconsin, I think, who voted for Obama but didn’t come out for Hillary. There can be a bunch of different reasons why people don’t adopt lesser evil voting philosophy even if I think they should.
    Things might be worse this year. There was a worrisome poll about that with Sanders people. But I also wouldn’t let the centrists off the hook if Sanders wins. People either see Trump as unacceptable or they don’t.
    From my POV, I am torn. I will definitely vote Sanders in the primary and for whatever Democrat in November, but Sanders is trying to do two things at once. He and his movement are trying to take over the Democratic Party. It is simply idiotic to brush this off as a personality cult. That is backwards. Yes, people like Sanders but it is because there are a lot of lefties who finally see the chance of a lifetime to swing the Democrats to what passes for far left in an American context and Sanders is the way to do it. We also dislike and distrust the centrist liberal press for all the reasons people like Chomsky laid out decades ago. Millions of lefties including me have internalized that critique. We don’t like the press and they don’t like us. And go ahead and say this sounds like Trump. I was reading books in media criticism over thirty years ago. Hell, I have a book on the conquest of the Philippines where much of what it talks about is how the press covered that war. It is amazingly modern. Nothing has changed.
    All that said, Sanders then has to unify the Democrats and go after Trump. I am not sure he can do it. The Democratic Party is used to a situation where a centrist liberal wins and far lefties are told to suck it up and vote. If Sanders wins, all the people in the party who hate his guts and who are in turn hated by Sanders movement types are supposed to unify and this after a primary where many have said Sanders is too far left to win. It would be a dynamic we haven’t seen since, um, 1972.
    It doesn’t make me optimistic no matter who wins. But I will shut up from July to November, not that I think it matters much what I say.

  453. And as for 2016, most Sanders voters voted for Clinton.
    And about 13% of them voted for Trump. Trump and Sanders are different sides of the populist coin. They are perceived as outsiders though Sanders is the ultimate inside outsider haveing been in politics most of his adult life.

  454. And as for 2016, most Sanders voters voted for Clinton.
    And about 13% of them voted for Trump. Trump and Sanders are different sides of the populist coin. They are perceived as outsiders though Sanders is the ultimate inside outsider haveing been in politics most of his adult life.

  459. people like Sanders but it is because there are a lot of lefties who finally see the chance of a lifetime to swing the Democrats to what passes for far left in an American context and Sanders is the way to do it.
    I mostly agree with this, except I don’t see it as a swing to the “far left”. I see it as a restoration of a set of norms that served this country more than well for fifty years, and which have been abandoned for the last forty.
    Sanders’ supporters aren’t hanging out reading Marcuse. They’re trying to stay afloat in a nation and a economy that gives no evidence of caring if they make it or not.
    My impression is that the days of the DNC-style center-left-ish Clinton era triangulation are over. Because that didn’t address the structural issues that cause people to be left behind.
    Things are shifting, and I have no idea where the lines are going to be when that all settles out. To follow on Carville’s comments, it still kind of is “the economy, stupid”, but promises of economic blessings from free trade and fluid capital are not really that persuasive at this point. We have that, and have had it for a while, and a lot of people still would be hard pressed to find $500 cash to fix their car if they had to.
    We need a new plan. Not Trump’s idiotic MAGA nostalgia, not Bill Clinton’s smartest-kid-in-class New Democracy. But something that makes some kind of basic security – economic, social, whatever – available to everyone. Even if they don’t work in tech or finance.
    Sanders is a grouchy old dude from Brooklyn who points and yells and has crazy hair. His appeal is not a cult of personality. It’s based in people’s lived experience.

  460. people like Sanders but it is because there are a lot of lefties who finally see the chance of a lifetime to swing the Democrats to what passes for far left in an American context and Sanders is the way to do it.
    I mostly agree with this, except I don’t see it as a swing to the “far left”. I see it as a restoration of a set of norms that served this country more than well for fifty years, and which have been abandoned for the last forty.
    Sanders’ supporters aren’t hanging out reading Marcuse. They’re trying to stay afloat in a nation and a economy that gives no evidence of caring if they make it or not.
    My impression is that the days of the DNC-style center-left-ish Clinton era triangulation are over. Because that didn’t address the structural issues that cause people to be left behind.
    Things are shifting, and I have no idea where the lines are going to be when that all settles out. To follow on Carville’s comments, it still kind of is “the economy, stupid”, but promises of economic blessings from free trade and fluid capital are not really that persuasive at this point. We have that, and have had it for a while, and a lot of people still would be hard pressed to find $500 cash to fix their car if they had to.
    We need a new plan. Not Trump’s idiotic MAGA nostalgia, not Bill Clinton’s smartest-kid-in-class New Democracy. But something that makes some kind of basic security – economic, social, whatever – available to everyone. Even if they don’t work in tech or finance.
    Sanders is a grouchy old dude from Brooklyn who points and yells and has crazy hair. His appeal is not a cult of personality. It’s based in people’s lived experience.

  465. Even if they don’t work in tech or finance.
    Fixed that for you. If we are going to discuss what Sanders has on offer let’s describe it honestly. That is not what we had 50 years ago. It isnt a return to the past any more than what Trump has on offer.

  466. Even if they don’t work in tech or finance.
    Fixed that for you. If we are going to discuss what Sanders has on offer let’s describe it honestly. That is not what we had 50 years ago. It isnt a return to the past any more than what Trump has on offer.

  469. We need a new plan. Not Trump’s idiotic MAGA nostalgia, not Bill Clinton’s smartest-kid-in-class New Democracy. But something that makes some kind of basic security – economic, social, whatever – available to everyone. Even if they don’t work in tech or finance.
    In short (contra Marty) it IS a return to the late 1940s and 1950s — in the sense of the balance in the economy between those who manage (specifically at the top of corporations) and those who do the work. While retaining the massive improvements that we have achieved on social issues.
    As opposed to the Trump vision of going back to the middle of the last century on social issues while retaining the economic structure we have now. (Trump’s support being divided between those who primarily care about the former and those who care about the latter.)

  470. We need a new plan. Not Trump’s idiotic MAGA nostalgia, not Bill Clinton’s smartest-kid-in-class New Democracy. But something that makes some kind of basic security – economic, social, whatever – available to everyone. Even if they don’t work in tech or finance.
    In short (contra Marty) it IS a return to the late 1940s and 1950s — in the sense of the balance in the economy between those who manage (specifically at the top of corporations) and those who do the work. While retaining the massive improvements that we have achieved on social issues.
    As opposed to the Trump vision of going back to the middle of the last century on social issues while retaining the economic structure we have now. (Trump’s support being divided between those who primarily care about the former and those who care about the latter.)

  471. There was a worrisome poll about that with Sanders people
    I’ve seen this one referenced recently that shows only 53% of Sanders supporters committed to voting for the eventual nominee. I hope that number is more indicative of stridency than stubbornness and, anecdotally, I don’t know anyone who isn’t committed.
    I should probably rephrase that last bit.
    Anyway, at 2 weeks old that poll is getting a bit long in the tooth. Still, that is a very unsettling number.
    I can almost understand the sentiment in 2016. Now that the danger of Trump is fully qualified, to not be on Team Ham Sandwich is mind-boggling. The primary is choice, the general is imperative.

  472. There was a worrisome poll about that with Sanders people
    I’ve seen this one referenced recently that shows only 53% of Sanders supporters committed to voting for the eventual nominee. I hope that number is more indicative of stridency than stubbornness and, anecdotally, I don’t know anyone who isn’t committed.
    I should probably rephrase that last bit.
    Anyway, at 2 weeks old that poll is getting a bit long in the tooth. Still, that is a very unsettling number.
    I can almost understand the sentiment in 2016. Now that the danger of Trump is fully qualified, to not be on Team Ham Sandwich is mind-boggling. The primary is choice, the general is imperative.

  473. “Which was enough. Better, I admit, had they stayed home and pouted.“
    Even better if politicians tried campaigning in key states. I don’t want to go back and rehash 2016, but I don’t think this tendency to moralize about people’s voting choices gets people very far. I would much rather moralize about the voting choices of certain famous politicians in certain crucial issues rather than bash some group of people whose lives I know nothing about. But politician bashing is a different rant. It would be more useful to determine all the various reasons people don’t vote for Democrats and see if there is some way to change their minds without having to compromise on basic moral principles, which was the point of bobbyp’s link, I think.
    Telling people they have a moral duty to vote the right way doesn’t always work. It doesn’t work on my pet issues—people need their own concerns met first and maybe not having their children sent off to fight stupid wars will meet them where they are. And if you want them to vote against a Trump or for a Democrat, one has to figure out what might reach them. Not that I know.
    But, for example, I do remember reading that Trump did better in places where there were more people who had lost family members in one of our stupid wars. Trump sometimes ran (incoherently and hypocritically) as antiwar. I even sometimes a see a handful of TAC commenters who claim they supported him for that reason, but some regret it now. So depending on the reason, one might be able to persuade former Trump voters to vote Democratic or at least not to vote for Trump.

  474. “Which was enough. Better, I admit, had they stayed home and pouted.“
    Even better if politicians tried campaigning in key states. I don’t want to go back and rehash 2016, but I don’t think this tendency to moralize about people’s voting choices gets people very far. I would much rather moralize about the voting choices of certain famous politicians in certain crucial issues rather than bash some group of people whose lives I know nothing about. But politician bashing is a different rant. It would be more useful to determine all the various reasons people don’t vote for Democrats and see if there is some way to change their minds without having to compromise on basic moral principles, which was the point of bobbyp’s link, I think.
    Telling people they have a moral duty to vote the right way doesn’t always work. It doesn’t work on my pet issues—people need their own concerns met first and maybe not having their children sent off to fight stupid wars will meet them where they are. And if you want them to vote against a Trump or for a Democrat, one has to figure out what might reach them. Not that I know.
    But, for example, I do remember reading that Trump did better in places where there were more people who had lost family members in one of our stupid wars. Trump sometimes ran (incoherently and hypocritically) as antiwar. I even sometimes a see a handful of TAC commenters who claim they supported him for that reason, but some regret it now. So depending on the reason, one might be able to persuade former Trump voters to vote Democratic or at least not to vote for Trump.

  475. Fixed that for you
    I don’t need you to fix anything for me.
    If you have a point, make your point, and I’ll make mine, no assistance needed.

  476. Fixed that for you
    I don’t need you to fix anything for me.
    If you have a point, make your point, and I’ll make mine, no assistance needed.

  481. Is anybody else having trouble getting to cleek’s place? I’ve tried off and on for a few hours, and the message consistently says “This site can’t be reached.”

  482. Is anybody else having trouble getting to cleek’s place? I’ve tried off and on for a few hours, and the message consistently says “This site can’t be reached.”

  493. “to not be on Team Ham Sandwich is mind-boggling.”
    well, aside from the flame-wars about “yellow mustard” vs. “grey poupon” vs. mayo.

  494. “to not be on Team Ham Sandwich is mind-boggling.”
    well, aside from the flame-wars about “yellow mustard” vs. “grey poupon” vs. mayo.

  495. I believe he is on to something here.
    so i’m reading along, and i get to this:

    If we knew any of them personally, we might shut up. Who in the GOP would go to a NASCAR rally and talk about there being no hope for anyone without a four-year degree?


    and i think – who in the GOP would go to a NASCAR rally at all?
    the top stars of the elected GOP and the Fox News/talk-radio chatterers are all coastal (mostly NYC and LA) elites – born and raised. the GOP is chock full of rich, private-schooled, yacht-owning elites who transparently pretend to be of-the-people. Trump literally shits in a gold toilet; and the working class that the left supposedly abandoned worships him.

  496. I believe he is on to something here.
    so i’m reading along, and i get to this:

    If we knew any of them personally, we might shut up. Who in the GOP would go to a NASCAR rally and talk about there being no hope for anyone without a four-year degree?


    and i think – who in the GOP would go to a NASCAR rally at all?
    the top stars of the elected GOP and the Fox News/talk-radio chatterers are all coastal (mostly NYC and LA) elites – born and raised. the GOP is chock full of rich, private-schooled, yacht-owning elites who transparently pretend to be of-the-people. Trump literally shits in a gold toilet; and the working class that the left supposedly abandoned worships him.

  497. I don’t know who that guy hangs out with. Personally, I have a lot of friends who either never went to college, or didn’t finish. I myself almost didn’t finish, it took me 10 years, off and on, to get my BA.
    So, WTF. The myth of the entitled snotty liberal elitist lives on.
    FWIW, and not to be all Bernie-bro about it because I’m not a Bernie-bro, Sanders’ “College for All” includes support for technical and vocational training. You can find that out by…. going to his campaign website and looking at it.
    A heavy lift for our thoughtful cultural observer, no doubt.
    I generally agree that the focus on “go to college, if you don’t go to college you’re gonna be a loser” is not a constructive emphasis or message. Mostly because it’s false, and also because it’s alienating to people who don’t really want or need to go to college to do what they want to do in life.
    So yes, the (D)’s could wise up about that.
    Their biggest mistake, IMO, was abandoning Howard Dean’s 50-state strategy in favor of doubling down on what have traditionally been (D) strongholds, via top-down strategy and funding from the DNC.
    That hasn’t worked so well. They should go back to Dean’s plan, it was better. If anybody here has anyone from the DNC on their Rolodex, pass that long for me.

  498. I don’t know who that guy hangs out with. Personally, I have a lot of friends who either never went to college, or didn’t finish. I myself almost didn’t finish, it took me 10 years, off and on, to get my BA.
    So, WTF. The myth of the entitled snotty liberal elitist lives on.
    FWIW, and not to be all Bernie-bro about it because I’m not a Bernie-bro, Sanders’ “College for All” includes support for technical and vocational training. You can find that out by…. going to his campaign website and looking at it.
    A heavy lift for our thoughtful cultural observer, no doubt.
    I generally agree that the focus on “go to college, if you don’t go to college you’re gonna be a loser” is not a constructive emphasis or message. Mostly because it’s false, and also because it’s alienating to people who don’t really want or need to go to college to do what they want to do in life.
    So yes, the (D)’s could wise up about that.
    Their biggest mistake, IMO, was abandoning Howard Dean’s 50-state strategy in favor of doubling down on what have traditionally been (D) strongholds, via top-down strategy and funding from the DNC.
    That hasn’t worked so well. They should go back to Dean’s plan, it was better. If anybody here has anyone from the DNC on their Rolodex, pass that long for me.

  499. The problem I see with the Geoghegan piece is that it seems to ignore how many Democrats spent large parts of their lives around those other people before going to college and getting a leg up.
    I live in campus subsidized housing surrounded by people who have graduate degrees and mostly vote blue. But I spent thirty years living in blue collar neighborhoods and small towns and rubbing elbows with others who had not earned a college degree before I managed to pay off my debts and earn my degree – and grad school happened almost accidentally).
    And every time I go to visit family I am stuck back in that working class world again.
    Know who has no idea about the way the other side lives? My family and old friends. The don’t have the first clue about how university research works, and they think that a bachelor’s degree represents some sort of expertise in the subject matter for the major, rather than being a basic introduction to the field roughly equivalent to an apprenticeship.
    It’s no wonder that they believe all the conspiracy theories about the Deep State, because they don’t know anyone actually doing that work and they have no idea what that work entails.
    So, yeah, Geoghegan is on to something with that cultural divide, but that divide needs to be permeable in both directions because we can’t work if only one side is required to have compassion and understanding while the other side gets to stoke its resentment.

  500. The problem I see with the Geoghegan piece is that it seems to ignore how many Democrats spent large parts of their lives around those other people before going to college and getting a leg up.
    I live in campus subsidized housing surrounded by people who have graduate degrees and mostly vote blue. But I spent thirty years living in blue collar neighborhoods and small towns and rubbing elbows with others who had not earned a college degree before I managed to pay off my debts and earn my degree – and grad school happened almost accidentally).
    And every time I go to visit family I am stuck back in that working class world again.
    Know who has no idea about the way the other side lives? My family and old friends. The don’t have the first clue about how university research works, and they think that a bachelor’s degree represents some sort of expertise in the subject matter for the major, rather than being a basic introduction to the field roughly equivalent to an apprenticeship.
    It’s no wonder that they believe all the conspiracy theories about the Deep State, because they don’t know anyone actually doing that work and they have no idea what that work entails.
    So, yeah, Geoghegan is on to something with that cultural divide, but that divide needs to be permeable in both directions because we can’t work if only one side is required to have compassion and understanding while the other side gets to stoke its resentment.

  501. that divide needs to be permeable in both directions because we can’t work if only one side is required to have compassion and understanding while the other side gets to stoke its resentment.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^
    this, right here.
    tell me what you need and we can try to figure out a way to make it happen.
    tell me to f*** my feelings and I’m gonna find it hard to hear anything else you have to say.

  502. that divide needs to be permeable in both directions because we can’t work if only one side is required to have compassion and understanding while the other side gets to stoke its resentment.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^
    this, right here.
    tell me what you need and we can try to figure out a way to make it happen.
    tell me to f*** my feelings and I’m gonna find it hard to hear anything else you have to say.

  503. Their biggest mistake, IMO, was abandoning Howard Dean’s 50-state strategy in favor of doubling down on what have traditionally been (D) strongholds, via top-down strategy and funding from the DNC.
    I wouldn’t disagree that this was a major mistake when it comes to Presidential politics.
    But I think the greatest mistake that the Democrats have made is in focusing on national office and elections, and frequently neglecting the state level. One result of which, among others, has been a decade of gerrymandered Congressional districts. Certainly this year getting rid of Trump is critical to the nation. But if the Democrats become so focused on this that they fail to regain control of the state legislatures, we are in for another decade of unfortunate Congressional decisions.

  504. Their biggest mistake, IMO, was abandoning Howard Dean’s 50-state strategy in favor of doubling down on what have traditionally been (D) strongholds, via top-down strategy and funding from the DNC.
    I wouldn’t disagree that this was a major mistake when it comes to Presidential politics.
    But I think the greatest mistake that the Democrats have made is in focusing on national office and elections, and frequently neglecting the state level. One result of which, among others, has been a decade of gerrymandered Congressional districts. Certainly this year getting rid of Trump is critical to the nation. But if the Democrats become so focused on this that they fail to regain control of the state legislatures, we are in for another decade of unfortunate Congressional decisions.

  505. But I think the greatest mistake that the Democrats have made is in focusing on national office and elections, and frequently neglecting the state level.
    absolutely agree.
    run somebody for every race, everywhere.
    To Geoghan’s argument, Klobuchar on professional education. I like her more and more.

  506. But I think the greatest mistake that the Democrats have made is in focusing on national office and elections, and frequently neglecting the state level.
    absolutely agree.
    run somebody for every race, everywhere.
    To Geoghan’s argument, Klobuchar on professional education. I like her more and more.

  507. I’m not suggesting it’s intentional, but most of the BernieBro talking points are straight out of the playbook of the GRU.
    So heavy with conspiracy theories, the need for a revolution, and the depravity of the Democrats–seldom a real policy mention except for insisting that there’s only one way to get to government run medical care in this country.

  508. I’m not suggesting it’s intentional, but most of the BernieBro talking points are straight out of the playbook of the GRU.
    So heavy with conspiracy theories, the need for a revolution, and the depravity of the Democrats–seldom a real policy mention except for insisting that there’s only one way to get to government run medical care in this country.

  509. To Geoghan’s argument, Klobuchar on professional education. I like her more and more.
    I like her too. I fear that she’s a death sentence with the BernieBros though (and thank you doretta for your comment). Her “mean” reputation has taken hold. I’m still torn between her and Warren for my primary vote.

  510. To Geoghan’s argument, Klobuchar on professional education. I like her more and more.
    I like her too. I fear that she’s a death sentence with the BernieBros though (and thank you doretta for your comment). Her “mean” reputation has taken hold. I’m still torn between her and Warren for my primary vote.

  517. Yeah, if we actually are looking for a (D) candidate who doesn’t freak out conservatives, Klobuchar is a good choice.
    Practical no-nonsense mid-westerners have their virtues. I’m married to one, I know this more than well.
    I am probably most closely aligned with Warren policy-wise, I have no real problem with Bernie although some of his supporters annoy the living hell out of me.
    And I’d be 100% fine with POTUS Klobuchar.

  518. Yeah, if we actually are looking for a (D) candidate who doesn’t freak out conservatives, Klobuchar is a good choice.
    Practical no-nonsense mid-westerners have their virtues. I’m married to one, I know this more than well.
    I am probably most closely aligned with Warren policy-wise, I have no real problem with Bernie although some of his supporters annoy the living hell out of me.
    And I’d be 100% fine with POTUS Klobuchar.

  519. I was going to say something snarky about the GRU McCarthyite crap upthread— I had something cute ready to go, but decided to post a link to something genuinely important that I just saw on one of my regular Bernie Bro twitter feeds. ( This one is a Bro— several other passionate Sanders supporters are not).
    https://mobile.twitter.com/JWMason1/status/1226683737372581889
    So that is Adam Johnson, one of those crazed Bros, linking to Mason linking to a deranged borderline fascist tweet from a police benevolent association.
    The SBA writer appears to be a Trump fan.
    So what should Democrats say about policemen who think the way this guy does?

  520. I was going to say something snarky about the GRU McCarthyite crap upthread— I had something cute ready to go, but decided to post a link to something genuinely important that I just saw on one of my regular Bernie Bro twitter feeds. ( This one is a Bro— several other passionate Sanders supporters are not).
    https://mobile.twitter.com/JWMason1/status/1226683737372581889
    So that is Adam Johnson, one of those crazed Bros, linking to Mason linking to a deranged borderline fascist tweet from a police benevolent association.
    The SBA writer appears to be a Trump fan.
    So what should Democrats say about policemen who think the way this guy does?

  525. “So what should Democrats say about policemen who think the way this guy does?:
    Let me think of something, but I”d be repeating myself.

  526. “So what should Democrats say about policemen who think the way this guy does?:
    Let me think of something, but I”d be repeating myself.

  527. Why the woman that Nigel quotes supports Trump:

    We hired him to protect us from people that want to take away our freedoms and people who want to kill babies.

    What are people talking about when they talk about somebody “taking away their freedoms”? Is this the gun thing again, or the baking-cakes-for-gay-weddings thing, or … what?
    Does anyone here know?
    This election is not going to be about issues. Maybe none of them are, in the end, but this one is surely not going to be. It’s going to be about boogiemen. About the modern version of communists under the bed, whatever that is.

  528. Why the woman that Nigel quotes supports Trump:

    We hired him to protect us from people that want to take away our freedoms and people who want to kill babies.

    What are people talking about when they talk about somebody “taking away their freedoms”? Is this the gun thing again, or the baking-cakes-for-gay-weddings thing, or … what?
    Does anyone here know?
    This election is not going to be about issues. Maybe none of them are, in the end, but this one is surely not going to be. It’s going to be about boogiemen. About the modern version of communists under the bed, whatever that is.

  531. Tangentially, I’m very happy to see that the guy who posted that police link is “Assistant professor of economics at John Jay College CUNY”

  532. Tangentially, I’m very happy to see that the guy who posted that police link is “Assistant professor of economics at John Jay College CUNY”

  533. So Marty would vote for Klobuchar. I must pay her more attention. Marty, are there any other D candidates you would vote for against Trump?

  534. So Marty would vote for Klobuchar. I must pay her more attention. Marty, are there any other D candidates you would vote for against Trump?

  535. CPAC issues violent death threat against Mitt Romney.
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/cpac-chair-says-hed-be-afraid-for-romneys-physical-safety-at-conservative-conference
    “About the modern version of communists under the bed, whatever that is.”
    The American conservative movement sleeps in a bed infested with bedbugs, underneath which, for each demagogic election cycle, they keep a lynched nigger, a liberal kike, a lesbian, a fag, a transgender fag, a wetback, a commie, a socialist, a politically correct white female PTA chairman, a teacher, an elitist, a scientist, a pointy-headed professor, a drunk redskin, Barbara Streisand, a RINO, Mitt Romney, a chink with the sniffles, a Jap, an unelected bureaucrat, the Deep State, a child with AIDS, an unemployed person, a single mother who they dream of raping,, a food stamp recipient, an American with fatal pre-existing conditions on Obamacare, a Medicaid recipient, military heroes who kill all the right people, a guy in a fez, a Muslim, a Sikh (for when an Arab ain’t available for a savage beating), and Amy Klobuchar, all of whom they want to murder.
    Set the Republican bed on fire:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQTyKr6VNoY
    Wipe the Republican Party off the face of the Earth.

  536. CPAC issues violent death threat against Mitt Romney.
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/cpac-chair-says-hed-be-afraid-for-romneys-physical-safety-at-conservative-conference
    “About the modern version of communists under the bed, whatever that is.”
    The American conservative movement sleeps in a bed infested with bedbugs, underneath which, for each demagogic election cycle, they keep a lynched nigger, a liberal kike, a lesbian, a fag, a transgender fag, a wetback, a commie, a socialist, a politically correct white female PTA chairman, a teacher, an elitist, a scientist, a pointy-headed professor, a drunk redskin, Barbara Streisand, a RINO, Mitt Romney, a chink with the sniffles, a Jap, an unelected bureaucrat, the Deep State, a child with AIDS, an unemployed person, a single mother who they dream of raping,, a food stamp recipient, an American with fatal pre-existing conditions on Obamacare, a Medicaid recipient, military heroes who kill all the right people, a guy in a fez, a Muslim, a Sikh (for when an Arab ain’t available for a savage beating), and Amy Klobuchar, all of whom they want to murder.
    Set the Republican bed on fire:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQTyKr6VNoY
    Wipe the Republican Party off the face of the Earth.

  537. Does anyone here know?
    “Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired.”?
    I watched “American Factory” (Best Documentary 2020) last night, which is worthwhile for its observations on cultural divide alone. For those unfamiliar, a closed GM plant in Ohio was reopened by a Chinese company that makes auto glass. One woman was making $29/hr at GM, rehired at $13/hr at the new plant. Statistically, she’s still employed.
    Who wants change when the economy is booming?

  538. Does anyone here know?
    “Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired.”?
    I watched “American Factory” (Best Documentary 2020) last night, which is worthwhile for its observations on cultural divide alone. For those unfamiliar, a closed GM plant in Ohio was reopened by a Chinese company that makes auto glass. One woman was making $29/hr at GM, rehired at $13/hr at the new plant. Statistically, she’s still employed.
    Who wants change when the economy is booming?

  539. What are people talking about when they talk about somebody “taking away their freedoms”? Is this the gun thing again, or the baking-cakes-for-gay-weddings thing, or … what?
    Based on my last visit to rural Kansas, add the freedom to ignore the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act, and the Endangered Species Act whenever those are inconvenient.
    My nephew there is a skilled diesel engine mechanic. The “maintenance” job he is asked to do most often is to bypass the factory emission controls in large farm implements/trucks to get an extra 30-50 horsepower. He doesn’t do that, but there is a modest underground economy in decoding the factory ROMs, working out the necessary changes, and producing replacement parts.
    Interestingly, he and I agree completely that manufacturers of everything from combines to refrigerators should be required to put the circuit board designs and code in escrow, to be released whenever they stop production of either the vehicle or the boards.

  540. What are people talking about when they talk about somebody “taking away their freedoms”? Is this the gun thing again, or the baking-cakes-for-gay-weddings thing, or … what?
    Based on my last visit to rural Kansas, add the freedom to ignore the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act, and the Endangered Species Act whenever those are inconvenient.
    My nephew there is a skilled diesel engine mechanic. The “maintenance” job he is asked to do most often is to bypass the factory emission controls in large farm implements/trucks to get an extra 30-50 horsepower. He doesn’t do that, but there is a modest underground economy in decoding the factory ROMs, working out the necessary changes, and producing replacement parts.
    Interestingly, he and I agree completely that manufacturers of everything from combines to refrigerators should be required to put the circuit board designs and code in escrow, to be released whenever they stop production of either the vehicle or the boards.

  543. we wouldn’t have to listen to the gaslighting centrists who oppose Sanders on policy pretending like it is all about electability concerns.
    Former McGovern voter here who is one of those very concerned about electability, not to mention health. I certainly don’t hate Sanders, and agree with some of his ideas.
    But I fear a Sanders-Trump contest could be a bloodbath. And that would be a catastrophe I don’t want to risk.
    And here’s the thing about Sanders’ agenda. If you can’t get the legislative parts through Congress what difference does it make who is in the White House? And how much of what can be done directly by the President will not get done by any of the other Democrats?
    IOW, what is the marginal gain for progressive priorities from having Sanders rather than Klobuchar, say, as President? I’d say not a lot. And that possible gain is, IMO, not worth the risk.

  544. we wouldn’t have to listen to the gaslighting centrists who oppose Sanders on policy pretending like it is all about electability concerns.
    Former McGovern voter here who is one of those very concerned about electability, not to mention health. I certainly don’t hate Sanders, and agree with some of his ideas.
    But I fear a Sanders-Trump contest could be a bloodbath. And that would be a catastrophe I don’t want to risk.
    And here’s the thing about Sanders’ agenda. If you can’t get the legislative parts through Congress what difference does it make who is in the White House? And how much of what can be done directly by the President will not get done by any of the other Democrats?
    IOW, what is the marginal gain for progressive priorities from having Sanders rather than Klobuchar, say, as President? I’d say not a lot. And that possible gain is, IMO, not worth the risk.

  545. GftNC,
    I might vote for Biden just because he won’t have any coattails and the Senate would probably be safe.
    Bernie is the only one that I thunk could swing some Trump voters on the fringes. His base will want him to run third party if he doesn’t win.
    I would rather Klobuchar run third party. She might get a coalition of R and D voters that would throw it to the House. Then who knows.
    Yes, this is just a fantasy. I have had much stranger ones.

  546. GftNC,
    I might vote for Biden just because he won’t have any coattails and the Senate would probably be safe.
    Bernie is the only one that I thunk could swing some Trump voters on the fringes. His base will want him to run third party if he doesn’t win.
    I would rather Klobuchar run third party. She might get a coalition of R and D voters that would throw it to the House. Then who knows.
    Yes, this is just a fantasy. I have had much stranger ones.

  547. we wouldn’t have to listen to the gaslighting centrists who oppose Sanders on policy pretending like it is all about electability concerns.
    it can be both things. it can both of them and more, even.

  548. we wouldn’t have to listen to the gaslighting centrists who oppose Sanders on policy pretending like it is all about electability concerns.
    it can be both things. it can both of them and more, even.

  549. Where did the “gaslighting centrists” quote come from?
    I have had much stranger ones.
    Don’t even get me started.

  550. Where did the “gaslighting centrists” quote come from?
    I have had much stranger ones.
    Don’t even get me started.

  553. “I have had much stranger ones.”
    Noted.
    I plan to get off work tonight and go home to a couple glasses of wine and respond to russell and nous above.
    byomtov: “And here’s the thing about Sanders’ agenda. If you can’t get the legislative parts through Congress what difference does it make who is in the White House?”
    And here’s the thing: None of Biden’s, or Klobuchar’s, or Mayor Pete’s agenda (much less Elizabeth Warren’s) would pass a GOP controlled Senate either. So where does that leave us?

  554. “I have had much stranger ones.”
    Noted.
    I plan to get off work tonight and go home to a couple glasses of wine and respond to russell and nous above.
    byomtov: “And here’s the thing about Sanders’ agenda. If you can’t get the legislative parts through Congress what difference does it make who is in the White House?”
    And here’s the thing: None of Biden’s, or Klobuchar’s, or Mayor Pete’s agenda (much less Elizabeth Warren’s) would pass a GOP controlled Senate either. So where does that leave us?

  555. Saw this in the Politoco article Nogel linked to.

    “It’s just so simple that we tend to ignore it: If the voter turnout is big enough, the left will win,” said Dean Corren, a former state legislator in Vermont and former Sanders staffer.

    I take this to be the left’s version of “real Americans” on the right. In fact, it all depends on who turns out and who stays home. Because if we had 100% turnout, neither the left nor the right would do well.
    We can argue about whether the center-right or center-left would have the edge in any given election. But the mode for the population as a whole is somewhere between Obama and Romney. Or, if you want current candidates, between Klobuchar/Buttigieg and Weld.

  556. Saw this in the Politoco article Nogel linked to.

    “It’s just so simple that we tend to ignore it: If the voter turnout is big enough, the left will win,” said Dean Corren, a former state legislator in Vermont and former Sanders staffer.

    I take this to be the left’s version of “real Americans” on the right. In fact, it all depends on who turns out and who stays home. Because if we had 100% turnout, neither the left nor the right would do well.
    We can argue about whether the center-right or center-left would have the edge in any given election. But the mode for the population as a whole is somewhere between Obama and Romney. Or, if you want current candidates, between Klobuchar/Buttigieg and Weld.

  557. And here’s the thing: None of Biden’s, or Klobuchar’s, or Mayor Pete’s agenda (much less Elizabeth Warren’s) would pass a GOP controlled Senate either.
    Ah, but that’s making a bit of an assumption, isn’t it?
    Marty, above, suggests that Biden would “have no coattails.” But my guess is that that’s more likely to be true of Sanders. The Republicans might contrive to hold the Senate this year. But I wouldn’t give odds.

  558. And here’s the thing: None of Biden’s, or Klobuchar’s, or Mayor Pete’s agenda (much less Elizabeth Warren’s) would pass a GOP controlled Senate either.
    Ah, but that’s making a bit of an assumption, isn’t it?
    Marty, above, suggests that Biden would “have no coattails.” But my guess is that that’s more likely to be true of Sanders. The Republicans might contrive to hold the Senate this year. But I wouldn’t give odds.

  559. “And here’s the thing: None of Biden’s, or Klobuchar’s, or Mayor Pete’s agenda (much less Elizabeth Warren’s) would pass a GOP controlled Senate either. So where does that leave us?”
    They will refuse any and everything by anyone who is to the left of Donald Trump, while opening impeachment proceedings against whomever besides trump is elected despite massive election corruption and vote-theft by the fascist right wing.
    We’re already there.
    Democracy and the Republic are on the slab, lifeless, murdered.
    The autopsy can wait.
    Trump will default on the national debt.
    Defaulting on his debts and ours IS his single expertise, and ultimately the goal the Republican Party lied, cheated, hated, and stole for to hire him.
    Where does that leave us?
    Only savagely violent resistance.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r13kXZKe4IA

  560. “And here’s the thing: None of Biden’s, or Klobuchar’s, or Mayor Pete’s agenda (much less Elizabeth Warren’s) would pass a GOP controlled Senate either. So where does that leave us?”
    They will refuse any and everything by anyone who is to the left of Donald Trump, while opening impeachment proceedings against whomever besides trump is elected despite massive election corruption and vote-theft by the fascist right wing.
    We’re already there.
    Democracy and the Republic are on the slab, lifeless, murdered.
    The autopsy can wait.
    Trump will default on the national debt.
    Defaulting on his debts and ours IS his single expertise, and ultimately the goal the Republican Party lied, cheated, hated, and stole for to hire him.
    Where does that leave us?
    Only savagely violent resistance.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r13kXZKe4IA

  563. odds are good that if a Dem gets the WH, Dems get the Senate, too.
    there are enough vulnerable Senate GOoPs to make it work.

  564. odds are good that if a Dem gets the WH, Dems get the Senate, too.
    there are enough vulnerable Senate GOoPs to make it work.

  565. They will refuse any and everything by anyone who is to the left of Donald Trump, while opening impeachment proceedings against whomever besides trump is elected….
    Um… impeachment proceedings have to start in the House. Can you see a scenario where the Democrat wins the Presidency, but Republicans take back the House? Because I sure can’t.

  566. They will refuse any and everything by anyone who is to the left of Donald Trump, while opening impeachment proceedings against whomever besides trump is elected….
    Um… impeachment proceedings have to start in the House. Can you see a scenario where the Democrat wins the Presidency, but Republicans take back the House? Because I sure can’t.

  567. None of Biden’s, or Klobuchar’s, or Mayor Pete’s agenda (much less Elizabeth Warren’s) would pass a GOP controlled Senate either. So where does that leave us?
    It leaves us looking for a candidate who can win and turn the Senate.

  568. None of Biden’s, or Klobuchar’s, or Mayor Pete’s agenda (much less Elizabeth Warren’s) would pass a GOP controlled Senate either. So where does that leave us?
    It leaves us looking for a candidate who can win and turn the Senate.

  569. But I fear a Sanders-Trump contest could be a bloodbath.
    Me, too.
    But I don’t know what “electable” looks like. I know what “un-fucking-believably-unelectable” looks like, and that clown is in the Oval Office. Time for a new algorithm?
    I’m no good at 4D chess and I don’t have a clue as to the winning formula for “electability”. And there may be a completely different formula for “getting stuff done”. I hope the primary process figures out the first one and ideally the two aren’t mutually exclusive.
    I don’t know what Congress is going to look like. I guess that should be part of the calculus too, but I’ll be damned if I know how it factors in.
    Will Warren or Sanders put another Ajit Pai at the head of the FCC or a Raytheon lobbyist at Sec. Def? No. Biden? Doubtful. Bloomberg? I don’t know.
    That’s the stuff the eventual nominee can definitely control if elected. So that’s pretty much what I’m going on.

  570. But I fear a Sanders-Trump contest could be a bloodbath.
    Me, too.
    But I don’t know what “electable” looks like. I know what “un-fucking-believably-unelectable” looks like, and that clown is in the Oval Office. Time for a new algorithm?
    I’m no good at 4D chess and I don’t have a clue as to the winning formula for “electability”. And there may be a completely different formula for “getting stuff done”. I hope the primary process figures out the first one and ideally the two aren’t mutually exclusive.
    I don’t know what Congress is going to look like. I guess that should be part of the calculus too, but I’ll be damned if I know how it factors in.
    Will Warren or Sanders put another Ajit Pai at the head of the FCC or a Raytheon lobbyist at Sec. Def? No. Biden? Doubtful. Bloomberg? I don’t know.
    That’s the stuff the eventual nominee can definitely control if elected. So that’s pretty much what I’m going on.

  571. This is far from unique, but still really sad.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/02/10/our-kids-are-losing-one-their-best-teachers-because-hes-dreamer/
    But the author gets one thing wrong, it seem to me. He says “It’s not as though the United States has an overabundance of highly skilled, highly dedicated educators. We need all the great teachers we can get.” But that assumes you believe in the value of education. While, on the evidence, Trump and his base hold exactly the opposite opinion.

  572. This is far from unique, but still really sad.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/02/10/our-kids-are-losing-one-their-best-teachers-because-hes-dreamer/
    But the author gets one thing wrong, it seem to me. He says “It’s not as though the United States has an overabundance of highly skilled, highly dedicated educators. We need all the great teachers we can get.” But that assumes you believe in the value of education. While, on the evidence, Trump and his base hold exactly the opposite opinion.

  573. But that assumes you believe in the value of education. While, on the evidence, Trump and his base hold exactly the opposite opinion.
    Kansas has been an interesting experiment. Brownback’s tax cuts were deep enough that K-12 spending cuts were required. Not taking the Medicaid expansion meant cuts for Kansas’s extensive network of rural hospitals. That got a Democrat elected governor, and a substantial turnover in Republican legislators. Enough change to get some of the tax cuts repealed, and the Medicaid expansion done. Depending on the specific candidates, Kansas may elect a Democrat for the open US Senate seat. Not real likely, but possible, especially if Kobach is the Republican. I think Trump gets the EC votes easily.

  574. But that assumes you believe in the value of education. While, on the evidence, Trump and his base hold exactly the opposite opinion.
    Kansas has been an interesting experiment. Brownback’s tax cuts were deep enough that K-12 spending cuts were required. Not taking the Medicaid expansion meant cuts for Kansas’s extensive network of rural hospitals. That got a Democrat elected governor, and a substantial turnover in Republican legislators. Enough change to get some of the tax cuts repealed, and the Medicaid expansion done. Depending on the specific candidates, Kansas may elect a Democrat for the open US Senate seat. Not real likely, but possible, especially if Kobach is the Republican. I think Trump gets the EC votes easily.

  575. Ah, but that’s making a bit of an assumption, isn’t it?
    What Pete said.
    Look, all we are doing here is making assumptions. I should think that the GOP retaining the US Senate is not an outlandish one given what seats may or may not be in play, and how many the Dems need to pick up. If the GOP retains control, they will block just about any policy agenda put forward by any Dem president. THEY HAVE ALREADY DONE THIS!!!!!!!!!!! Hell’s bells, they might even block any further judicial appointments, you know, because the next election is “only” 3 or 4 years off. The only thing they would pass would be some kind of compromise budgets, maybe rename a post office or two.
    So we have to take the Senate. Then we also have to blow up the filibuster once and for all. Because the filibuster is still in play for stuff like health care reforms. And further, this assumes that folks like Joe Manchin will go for such reforms as well.
    If you believe that to be no big deal, then please do not bring up the matter of “assumptions” with me….like ever.
    Thanks.

  576. Ah, but that’s making a bit of an assumption, isn’t it?
    What Pete said.
    Look, all we are doing here is making assumptions. I should think that the GOP retaining the US Senate is not an outlandish one given what seats may or may not be in play, and how many the Dems need to pick up. If the GOP retains control, they will block just about any policy agenda put forward by any Dem president. THEY HAVE ALREADY DONE THIS!!!!!!!!!!! Hell’s bells, they might even block any further judicial appointments, you know, because the next election is “only” 3 or 4 years off. The only thing they would pass would be some kind of compromise budgets, maybe rename a post office or two.
    So we have to take the Senate. Then we also have to blow up the filibuster once and for all. Because the filibuster is still in play for stuff like health care reforms. And further, this assumes that folks like Joe Manchin will go for such reforms as well.
    If you believe that to be no big deal, then please do not bring up the matter of “assumptions” with me….like ever.
    Thanks.

  577. If I had to pick between (D) POTUS and (R) majority Senate vs the other way around, I’d go for (D) majority Senate and live with (R) POTUS. Even though that would be Trump.
    But let’s shoot for both.

  578. If I had to pick between (D) POTUS and (R) majority Senate vs the other way around, I’d go for (D) majority Senate and live with (R) POTUS. Even though that would be Trump.
    But let’s shoot for both.

  579. “States with a powerful death penalty on drug dealers don’t have a drug problem. I don’t know if our country is ready for that. … Countries with a powerful death penalty, with a fair but quick trial, they have very little if any drug problem. That includes China.”
    letting his authoritarian flag fly.
    thanks GOP. you’re the best.

  580. “States with a powerful death penalty on drug dealers don’t have a drug problem. I don’t know if our country is ready for that. … Countries with a powerful death penalty, with a fair but quick trial, they have very little if any drug problem. That includes China.”
    letting his authoritarian flag fly.
    thanks GOP. you’re the best.

  581. “Countries with a powerful death penalty, with a fair but quick trial,…” <- oxymoran -> “That includes China.”
    Well maybe quick. After all, time is money when you have organ sales to make.

  582. “Countries with a powerful death penalty, with a fair but quick trial,…” <- oxymoran -> “That includes China.”
    Well maybe quick. After all, time is money when you have organ sales to make.

  583. my days as a religious fundamentalist.
    Wow, I would have never guessed – if it’s not too personal I would be interested in what happened, thanks.
    Sanders’ supporters aren’t hanging out reading Marcuse.
    Lol, I’m looking forward to the day Marcuse re-enters public discourse in the US (or anywhere really).
    As it happens, I just started Grand Hotel Abyss – The Lives of the Frankfurt School – they have been a bit of an intellectual blind spot for me (except for tiny doses of Habermas and Honneth) but I can’t bring myself to read the originals. Quite entertaining so far.

  584. my days as a religious fundamentalist.
    Wow, I would have never guessed – if it’s not too personal I would be interested in what happened, thanks.
    Sanders’ supporters aren’t hanging out reading Marcuse.
    Lol, I’m looking forward to the day Marcuse re-enters public discourse in the US (or anywhere really).
    As it happens, I just started Grand Hotel Abyss – The Lives of the Frankfurt School – they have been a bit of an intellectual blind spot for me (except for tiny doses of Habermas and Honneth) but I can’t bring myself to read the originals. Quite entertaining so far.

  585. I should think that the GOP retaining the US Senate is not an outlandish one given what seats may or may not be in play, and how many the Dems need to pick up.
    No argument at all. Just saying that it’s not a slam dunk for them either.
    And it looks rather like the GOP is trying hard to put as many Senate (and other) seats as possible in play. See the suit to overturn Obamacare, the proposed cuts to MedicAid, etc., etc., etc. It’s by no means a sure thing, but we could be looking at the Kansas experience on a grand scale.

  586. I should think that the GOP retaining the US Senate is not an outlandish one given what seats may or may not be in play, and how many the Dems need to pick up.
    No argument at all. Just saying that it’s not a slam dunk for them either.
    And it looks rather like the GOP is trying hard to put as many Senate (and other) seats as possible in play. See the suit to overturn Obamacare, the proposed cuts to MedicAid, etc., etc., etc. It’s by no means a sure thing, but we could be looking at the Kansas experience on a grand scale.

  589. Can you see a scenario where the Democrat wins the Presidency, but Republicans take back the House?
    It’s called the midterms.

  590. Can you see a scenario where the Democrat wins the Presidency, but Republicans take back the House?
    It’s called the midterms.

  593. “ No offense to Donald, but he was my first guess.”
    None taken. I wish to ridicule the Bernie Bro bashing in this thread and elsewhere. It is rather obviously the sort of thing where people notice rudeness and harsh arguments and worse aimed at their own side while thinking every piece of crap their side throws is a bouquet of roses. I stopped reading Balloon Juice years ago because of the bouquets. Waste of time. I still look at LGM sometimes because there are some good articles and even some funny people in the comments, so it is not a waste of time, but that place is a Two Minute Hate that never stops. Does this matter? No. It’s the internet. Boohoo, people on the Internet are being harshly critical of the views I hold and the people I like. Someone make it stop or at least give me some pearls to clutch. Actually, I find it fascinating to figure out exactly how the LGM people think. Just how far can you go in criticizing a Democrat? What are the rules? When do you fall in line and when can you cut loose? For me it is like trying to decipher a dead foreign language.
    Do Sanders supporters think the mainstream Democratic Party is too corporate friendly, too easily influenced by big money donors and in a word, corrupt? Hell yes. Better than Trump, but iI’d go beyond Russell and say I’d vote for a piece of dog poop smeared on the ballot over Trump. I’d even vote for Bloomberg if he buys the Party. It is important enough I will shut up for a few months after the nomination if some sandwich or dog poop is the Democratic standard bearer.
    I could also talk about columnists. But nevermind. Want to keep it short( er). But the mainstream liberal press despises the far left. The feeling is mutual.
    Also, the Berniebro meme is BS. Anyone who follows pro Bernie twitter will immediately see women who are as passionate about Bernie and as hostile to the Democratic mainstream as any Chapo guy. The Bro thing is an attempt to make it about sexism. So ask female Berniebros online about their experiences. You might be surprised to discover that woman holding all sorts of views can be targeted by misogynist creeps. Sometimes racist ones too.
    And then look at the politicians and public figures who do support Sanders. AOC, Ilhan Omar, Tlaib. Clinton attacked Sanders and Tlaib led a booing session. I don’t think either of them should have done what they did, but that was a Bro- ish thing to do on both sides. Except both were women.
    Related to this is the idea that Sanders only attracts the white Chapo type male. Except he is very popular with the millenials of all types.
    Sanders is apparently very popular with Muslims. Ask me about Klobucher and Palestine. Just kidding— don’t really want to do more ranting for awhile after I finish this.
    If you follow Sanders twitter you will see references to people dying or unable to afford health care. So some of them see Medicare for all as life or death. I just saw another tweet like that. Are they right? I don’t know, but don’t tell me they are just random Bros angry about nothing.
    And speaking of nothing, Yemen is now entirely a mainstream issue in the Democratic Party. A few Republicans opposed it before many Democrats did, but the US support for that war is now a Trump owned policy. But Sanders was there earlier than most. That is the sort of issue where you generally find the Berniebro types of various genders there before it becomes mainstream. And when did it become mainstream and why? Well, Khashoggi was murdered and he was part of the DC social scene. And after a decent interval it was Trump’s war. Which it totally is at this point.

  594. “ No offense to Donald, but he was my first guess.”
    None taken. I wish to ridicule the Bernie Bro bashing in this thread and elsewhere. It is rather obviously the sort of thing where people notice rudeness and harsh arguments and worse aimed at their own side while thinking every piece of crap their side throws is a bouquet of roses. I stopped reading Balloon Juice years ago because of the bouquets. Waste of time. I still look at LGM sometimes because there are some good articles and even some funny people in the comments, so it is not a waste of time, but that place is a Two Minute Hate that never stops. Does this matter? No. It’s the internet. Boohoo, people on the Internet are being harshly critical of the views I hold and the people I like. Someone make it stop or at least give me some pearls to clutch. Actually, I find it fascinating to figure out exactly how the LGM people think. Just how far can you go in criticizing a Democrat? What are the rules? When do you fall in line and when can you cut loose? For me it is like trying to decipher a dead foreign language.
    Do Sanders supporters think the mainstream Democratic Party is too corporate friendly, too easily influenced by big money donors and in a word, corrupt? Hell yes. Better than Trump, but iI’d go beyond Russell and say I’d vote for a piece of dog poop smeared on the ballot over Trump. I’d even vote for Bloomberg if he buys the Party. It is important enough I will shut up for a few months after the nomination if some sandwich or dog poop is the Democratic standard bearer.
    I could also talk about columnists. But nevermind. Want to keep it short( er). But the mainstream liberal press despises the far left. The feeling is mutual.
    Also, the Berniebro meme is BS. Anyone who follows pro Bernie twitter will immediately see women who are as passionate about Bernie and as hostile to the Democratic mainstream as any Chapo guy. The Bro thing is an attempt to make it about sexism. So ask female Berniebros online about their experiences. You might be surprised to discover that woman holding all sorts of views can be targeted by misogynist creeps. Sometimes racist ones too.
    And then look at the politicians and public figures who do support Sanders. AOC, Ilhan Omar, Tlaib. Clinton attacked Sanders and Tlaib led a booing session. I don’t think either of them should have done what they did, but that was a Bro- ish thing to do on both sides. Except both were women.
    Related to this is the idea that Sanders only attracts the white Chapo type male. Except he is very popular with the millenials of all types.
    Sanders is apparently very popular with Muslims. Ask me about Klobucher and Palestine. Just kidding— don’t really want to do more ranting for awhile after I finish this.
    If you follow Sanders twitter you will see references to people dying or unable to afford health care. So some of them see Medicare for all as life or death. I just saw another tweet like that. Are they right? I don’t know, but don’t tell me they are just random Bros angry about nothing.
    And speaking of nothing, Yemen is now entirely a mainstream issue in the Democratic Party. A few Republicans opposed it before many Democrats did, but the US support for that war is now a Trump owned policy. But Sanders was there earlier than most. That is the sort of issue where you generally find the Berniebro types of various genders there before it becomes mainstream. And when did it become mainstream and why? Well, Khashoggi was murdered and he was part of the DC social scene. And after a decent interval it was Trump’s war. Which it totally is at this point.

  595. the mainstream liberal press despises the far left. The feeling is mutual.
    From the outside (i.e. as someone who is neither far left nor a mainstream liberal), I get the sense that the mainstream liberals dislike the far left for, as they see it, persistently making the perfect the enemy of the good.
    Yes, there are also various policy differences. But the real driver of the intense dislike is the times that the far left acted like they would rather let the far right win than “compromise their ideals” and support a moderate liberal. (It’s not a phenomena peculiar to the left, of course.)

  596. the mainstream liberal press despises the far left. The feeling is mutual.
    From the outside (i.e. as someone who is neither far left nor a mainstream liberal), I get the sense that the mainstream liberals dislike the far left for, as they see it, persistently making the perfect the enemy of the good.
    Yes, there are also various policy differences. But the real driver of the intense dislike is the times that the far left acted like they would rather let the far right win than “compromise their ideals” and support a moderate liberal. (It’s not a phenomena peculiar to the left, of course.)

  603. Well, if she’s right, then there’s simply no need to worry much. (Although it would be interesting to see more details on just which Senate seats she sees as flipping. Tried Googling it, without much success.)

  604. Well, if she’s right, then there’s simply no need to worry much. (Although it would be interesting to see more details on just which Senate seats she sees as flipping. Tried Googling it, without much success.)

  607. Swears like a sailor, and was a Deadhead. Even if I disliked what she was saying, I’d like her.

  608. Swears like a sailor, and was a Deadhead. Even if I disliked what she was saying, I’d like her.

  613. If I had to pick between (D) POTUS and (R) majority Senate vs the other way around, I’d go for (D) majority Senate and live with (R) POTUS.
    I’d prefer the other way. A (D) POTUS can immediately start rewriting rules and regulations, and their DOJ can chose the other side in court cases (eg, defend Obamacare rather than arguing that it’s unconstitutional). Trump’s got dozens/hundreds of people who have been approved by the Senate for something, can cycle them through all of the Cabinet and agency positions indefinitely, and do the same things with rules and the DOJ that he’s been doing.
    If I had been moderating one of the debates, my question would have been, “What’s your plan for governing by rules, regulations, and executive orders if the Senate remains in Republican hands?”

  614. If I had to pick between (D) POTUS and (R) majority Senate vs the other way around, I’d go for (D) majority Senate and live with (R) POTUS.
    I’d prefer the other way. A (D) POTUS can immediately start rewriting rules and regulations, and their DOJ can chose the other side in court cases (eg, defend Obamacare rather than arguing that it’s unconstitutional). Trump’s got dozens/hundreds of people who have been approved by the Senate for something, can cycle them through all of the Cabinet and agency positions indefinitely, and do the same things with rules and the DOJ that he’s been doing.
    If I had been moderating one of the debates, my question would have been, “What’s your plan for governing by rules, regulations, and executive orders if the Senate remains in Republican hands?”

  615. Yes, there are also various policy differences.
    LOL….well, indeed yes. But in my lifetime-Viet Nam war going forward, it is the left, broadly speaking, that pushes the mushy lib center toward better public policy (I am hard pressed to think of a public policy advance since the 1960’s that was not taken up first by the dirty hippies). And the phrase, “You’re trying to go too fast”? Well, I tend to ignore that.
    It’s our job. Sometimes we win, but most times not. Some of us bear that cross better than others. I am at a loss as to why that seems so difficult to understand. Most of the time you have us right where you want us…but the opportunity for rubbing it in just can’t be passed up.
    As they say, where else can we go?
    But I also recall with a white hot anger that has yet to subside the center’s massive abandonment of a well meaning good hearted New Deal, but anti-war liberal Democrat in 1972.
    Please do everything in your limited power to not let it fucking happen again. The stakes are a bit higher this time.
    Really.

  616. Yes, there are also various policy differences.
    LOL….well, indeed yes. But in my lifetime-Viet Nam war going forward, it is the left, broadly speaking, that pushes the mushy lib center toward better public policy (I am hard pressed to think of a public policy advance since the 1960’s that was not taken up first by the dirty hippies). And the phrase, “You’re trying to go too fast”? Well, I tend to ignore that.
    It’s our job. Sometimes we win, but most times not. Some of us bear that cross better than others. I am at a loss as to why that seems so difficult to understand. Most of the time you have us right where you want us…but the opportunity for rubbing it in just can’t be passed up.
    As they say, where else can we go?
    But I also recall with a white hot anger that has yet to subside the center’s massive abandonment of a well meaning good hearted New Deal, but anti-war liberal Democrat in 1972.
    Please do everything in your limited power to not let it fucking happen again. The stakes are a bit higher this time.
    Really.

  619. But I also recall with a white hot anger that has yet to subside the center’s massive abandonment of a well meaning good hearted New Deal, but anti-war liberal Democrat in 1972.
    Note that McGovern wasn’t generically anti-war. (He was, after all, a World War II vet.) He was anti the Vietnam War. Which was a whole lot broader group.
    (I’m recalling, still with amusement, the time an anti-war type decided to come to one of my ROTC classes. He kicked off the conversation saying “The Vietnam War is a f*cked up mess!” And was astonished when all of us, sitting there in uniform, indicated complete agreement. Because it definitely was.)
    Yeah, Nixon and his boys did a good job of painting McGovern as a wild anti-war liberal. But he wasn’t actually.

  620. But I also recall with a white hot anger that has yet to subside the center’s massive abandonment of a well meaning good hearted New Deal, but anti-war liberal Democrat in 1972.
    Note that McGovern wasn’t generically anti-war. (He was, after all, a World War II vet.) He was anti the Vietnam War. Which was a whole lot broader group.
    (I’m recalling, still with amusement, the time an anti-war type decided to come to one of my ROTC classes. He kicked off the conversation saying “The Vietnam War is a f*cked up mess!” And was astonished when all of us, sitting there in uniform, indicated complete agreement. Because it definitely was.)
    Yeah, Nixon and his boys did a good job of painting McGovern as a wild anti-war liberal. But he wasn’t actually.

  621. I’d prefer the other way.
    I’d tend to agree. There is also this thing called “foreign policy” that comes up from time to time.

  622. I’d prefer the other way.
    I’d tend to agree. There is also this thing called “foreign policy” that comes up from time to time.

  623. “anti-war liberal”
    Well:
    “In September 1944 McGovern joined the 741st Squadron of the 455th Bombardment Group of the Fifteenth Air Force, stationed at San Giovanni Airfield near Cerignola in the Apulia region of Italy.[41] There he and his crew found a starving, disease-ridden local population wracked by the ill fortunes of war and far worse off than anything they had seen back home during the Depression.[41][42] Those sights would form part of his later motivation to fight hunger.[43] Starting on November 11, 1944, McGovern flew 35 missions over enemy territory from San Giovanni, the first five as co-pilot for an experienced crew and the rest as pilot for his own plane, known as the Dakota Queen after his wife Eleanor.[44] His targets were in Austria; Czechoslovakia; Nazi Germany; Hungary; Poland; and northern, German-controlled Italy, and were often either oil refinery complexes or rail marshaling yards, all as part of the U.S. strategic bombing campaign in Europe. The eight- or nine-hour missions were grueling tests of endurance for pilots and crew, and while German fighter aircraft were a diminished threat by this time as compared with earlier in the war, his missions often faced heavy anti-aircraft artillery fire that filled the sky with flak bursts.[45]
    On McGovern’s December 15 mission over Linz, his second as pilot, a piece of shrapnel from flak came through the windshield and missed fatally wounding him by only a few inches.[46] The following day on a mission to Brüx, he nearly collided with another bomber during close-formation flying in complete cloud cover.[47] The following day, he was recommended for a medal after surviving a blown wheel on the always-dangerous B-24 take-off, completing a mission over Germany, and then landing without further damage to the plane.[48] On a December 20 mission against the Škoda Works at Pilsen, Czechoslovakia, McGovern’s plane had one engine out and another in flames after being hit by flak. Unable to return to Italy, McGovern flew to a British airfield on Vis, a small island in the Adriatic Sea off the Yugoslav coast that was controlled by Josip Broz Tito’s Partisans. The short field, normally used by small fighter planes, was so unforgiving to four-engined aircraft that many of the bomber crews who tried to make emergency landings there perished. But McGovern successfully landed, saving his crew, a feat for which he was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross.[49][50]
    A B‑24 Liberator of the Fifteenth Air Force’s 451st Bombardment Group (not McGovern’s group, but also stationed in Italy), on a March 1945 mission over Germany
    In January 1945 McGovern used R&R time to see every sight that he could in Rome, and to participate in an audience with the pope.[51] Bad weather prevented many missions from being carried out during the winter, and during such downtime McGovern spent much time reading and discussing how the war had come about. He resolved that if he survived it, he would become a history professor.[52] In February, McGovern was promoted to first lieutenant.[53] On March 14 McGovern had an incident over Austria in which he accidentally bombed a family farmhouse when a jammed bomb inadvertently released above the structure and destroyed it, an event that haunted McGovern.[54] (Four decades later, after a McGovern public appearance in that country, the owner of the farm approached the media to let the senator know that he was the victim of that incident but that no one had been hurt and the farmer felt that it had been worth the price if that event helped achieve the defeat of Nazi Germany in some small way. McGovern was greatly relieved.[55][56]) On returning to base from the flight, McGovern was told his first child Ann had been born four days earlier.[54] April 25 saw McGovern’s 35th mission, which marked fulfillment of the Fifteenth Air Force’s requirement for a combat tour, against heavily defended Linz. The sky turned black and red with flak – McGovern later said, “Hell can’t be any worse than that” – and the Dakota Queen was hit multiple times, resulting in 110 holes in its fuselage and wings and an inoperative hydraulic system. McGovern’s waist gunner was injured, and his flight engineer was so unnerved by his experience that he would subsequently be hospitalized with battle fatigue, but McGovern managed to bring back the plane safely with the assistance of an improvised landing technique.”
    There is nothing anti-American conservative movement fascists hate more than a decorated soldier who put his ass in harm’s way and dropped ordnance on the former’s fellow fascists in any war.
    What were Nixon and Reagan pussies and cowards doing during those years besides playing sailor reserve and faked cavalry horsey.
    Limbaugh, Bush Jr., Cheney, Trump …. all of them medal of freedom-winning cowardly scum and filth.
    Jesus Christ, what a fucking pile of conservative dogshit.

  624. “anti-war liberal”
    Well:
    “In September 1944 McGovern joined the 741st Squadron of the 455th Bombardment Group of the Fifteenth Air Force, stationed at San Giovanni Airfield near Cerignola in the Apulia region of Italy.[41] There he and his crew found a starving, disease-ridden local population wracked by the ill fortunes of war and far worse off than anything they had seen back home during the Depression.[41][42] Those sights would form part of his later motivation to fight hunger.[43] Starting on November 11, 1944, McGovern flew 35 missions over enemy territory from San Giovanni, the first five as co-pilot for an experienced crew and the rest as pilot for his own plane, known as the Dakota Queen after his wife Eleanor.[44] His targets were in Austria; Czechoslovakia; Nazi Germany; Hungary; Poland; and northern, German-controlled Italy, and were often either oil refinery complexes or rail marshaling yards, all as part of the U.S. strategic bombing campaign in Europe. The eight- or nine-hour missions were grueling tests of endurance for pilots and crew, and while German fighter aircraft were a diminished threat by this time as compared with earlier in the war, his missions often faced heavy anti-aircraft artillery fire that filled the sky with flak bursts.[45]
    On McGovern’s December 15 mission over Linz, his second as pilot, a piece of shrapnel from flak came through the windshield and missed fatally wounding him by only a few inches.[46] The following day on a mission to Brüx, he nearly collided with another bomber during close-formation flying in complete cloud cover.[47] The following day, he was recommended for a medal after surviving a blown wheel on the always-dangerous B-24 take-off, completing a mission over Germany, and then landing without further damage to the plane.[48] On a December 20 mission against the Škoda Works at Pilsen, Czechoslovakia, McGovern’s plane had one engine out and another in flames after being hit by flak. Unable to return to Italy, McGovern flew to a British airfield on Vis, a small island in the Adriatic Sea off the Yugoslav coast that was controlled by Josip Broz Tito’s Partisans. The short field, normally used by small fighter planes, was so unforgiving to four-engined aircraft that many of the bomber crews who tried to make emergency landings there perished. But McGovern successfully landed, saving his crew, a feat for which he was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross.[49][50]
    A B‑24 Liberator of the Fifteenth Air Force’s 451st Bombardment Group (not McGovern’s group, but also stationed in Italy), on a March 1945 mission over Germany
    In January 1945 McGovern used R&R time to see every sight that he could in Rome, and to participate in an audience with the pope.[51] Bad weather prevented many missions from being carried out during the winter, and during such downtime McGovern spent much time reading and discussing how the war had come about. He resolved that if he survived it, he would become a history professor.[52] In February, McGovern was promoted to first lieutenant.[53] On March 14 McGovern had an incident over Austria in which he accidentally bombed a family farmhouse when a jammed bomb inadvertently released above the structure and destroyed it, an event that haunted McGovern.[54] (Four decades later, after a McGovern public appearance in that country, the owner of the farm approached the media to let the senator know that he was the victim of that incident but that no one had been hurt and the farmer felt that it had been worth the price if that event helped achieve the defeat of Nazi Germany in some small way. McGovern was greatly relieved.[55][56]) On returning to base from the flight, McGovern was told his first child Ann had been born four days earlier.[54] April 25 saw McGovern’s 35th mission, which marked fulfillment of the Fifteenth Air Force’s requirement for a combat tour, against heavily defended Linz. The sky turned black and red with flak – McGovern later said, “Hell can’t be any worse than that” – and the Dakota Queen was hit multiple times, resulting in 110 holes in its fuselage and wings and an inoperative hydraulic system. McGovern’s waist gunner was injured, and his flight engineer was so unnerved by his experience that he would subsequently be hospitalized with battle fatigue, but McGovern managed to bring back the plane safely with the assistance of an improvised landing technique.”
    There is nothing anti-American conservative movement fascists hate more than a decorated soldier who put his ass in harm’s way and dropped ordnance on the former’s fellow fascists in any war.
    What were Nixon and Reagan pussies and cowards doing during those years besides playing sailor reserve and faked cavalry horsey.
    Limbaugh, Bush Jr., Cheney, Trump …. all of them medal of freedom-winning cowardly scum and filth.
    Jesus Christ, what a fucking pile of conservative dogshit.

  625. the Berniebro meme is BS.
    I basically agree.
    My issue with so-called “Bernie Bros” is mostly about fundamentalism in whatever form it takes. So, not really about Bernie per se.
    I don’t know if he would be a good POTUS or not, but he has, really almost single-handedly, introduced a political / social / economic stance into national politics that was simply not present before. Or, not for a generation or more.
    To the degree that the Overton window has moved to the left at all, Bernie gets a lot of the credit. The positions he holds are the same ones he’s held for, like, 40 years or more, and he makes exactly zero apology for them. I don’t know if all of his policies are, in practical terms, the best available idea, or even politically possible. I do know that I don’t have much of a problem with them in principle.
    Best of luck to all of the candidates. I hope the process delivers whoever is most likely to win, and by the largest possible margin.

  626. the Berniebro meme is BS.
    I basically agree.
    My issue with so-called “Bernie Bros” is mostly about fundamentalism in whatever form it takes. So, not really about Bernie per se.
    I don’t know if he would be a good POTUS or not, but he has, really almost single-handedly, introduced a political / social / economic stance into national politics that was simply not present before. Or, not for a generation or more.
    To the degree that the Overton window has moved to the left at all, Bernie gets a lot of the credit. The positions he holds are the same ones he’s held for, like, 40 years or more, and he makes exactly zero apology for them. I don’t know if all of his policies are, in practical terms, the best available idea, or even politically possible. I do know that I don’t have much of a problem with them in principle.
    Best of luck to all of the candidates. I hope the process delivers whoever is most likely to win, and by the largest possible margin.

  627. The Berniebro meme is not bs.
    I was going to say more, but why? I’ll vote for him if he manages to get the nomination. And I’ll learn to like it. And, no, it’s not about his policies.

  628. The Berniebro meme is not bs.
    I was going to say more, but why? I’ll vote for him if he manages to get the nomination. And I’ll learn to like it. And, no, it’s not about his policies.

  629. A heavy lift for our thoughtful cultural observer, no doubt.
    I read this and thought, “Obviously, Russell and I did not read the same article.”
    I generally agree that the focus on “go to college, if you don’t go to college you’re gonna be a loser” is not a constructive emphasis or message. Mostly because it’s false, and also because it’s alienating to people who don’t really want or need to go to college to do what they want to do in life.
    Yet, this was the central thrust of Geoghegan’s piece! So once again I find myself flummoxed. Further, the over-reliance on policy prescriptions that flow from the single minded emphasis on education, (including trade schools, community college, etc.), as the be all and end all for what ails our polity is deeply flawed.
    In a nutshell, that is what Geoghegan argues. The prescriptions for a more participatory social democracy (see his observations about Denmark in the essay) and worker empowerment in the workplace he makes at the end of his essay. I should think you did indeed make it that far.
    Geoghegan’s whole opus is about empowerment for those who have none. He is an old time New Deal labor lawyer, hardly a Thomas Frank Listen Liberal lefty.
    You might check out his wiki entry here.
    You might even try reading some of his books and essays. Like this one.
    I feel your initial reaction did him a disservice.
    I see he has a new book out. I, for one, will be an eager reader.
    Thanks.

  630. A heavy lift for our thoughtful cultural observer, no doubt.
    I read this and thought, “Obviously, Russell and I did not read the same article.”
    I generally agree that the focus on “go to college, if you don’t go to college you’re gonna be a loser” is not a constructive emphasis or message. Mostly because it’s false, and also because it’s alienating to people who don’t really want or need to go to college to do what they want to do in life.
    Yet, this was the central thrust of Geoghegan’s piece! So once again I find myself flummoxed. Further, the over-reliance on policy prescriptions that flow from the single minded emphasis on education, (including trade schools, community college, etc.), as the be all and end all for what ails our polity is deeply flawed.
    In a nutshell, that is what Geoghegan argues. The prescriptions for a more participatory social democracy (see his observations about Denmark in the essay) and worker empowerment in the workplace he makes at the end of his essay. I should think you did indeed make it that far.
    Geoghegan’s whole opus is about empowerment for those who have none. He is an old time New Deal labor lawyer, hardly a Thomas Frank Listen Liberal lefty.
    You might check out his wiki entry here.
    You might even try reading some of his books and essays. Like this one.
    I feel your initial reaction did him a disservice.
    I see he has a new book out. I, for one, will be an eager reader.
    Thanks.

  631. Well, it’s not a “single minded emphasis on education.” But the Fed chairman does seem to believe that education (together with the opoid epidemic) is why American labor force participation is so much lower than other developed economies.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/02/15/powell-labor-force/
    Granted, he was responding to a Senator who was fishing for something about the welfare state discouraging people from working. (Which, Powell pointed out, is nonsense.) But the pount remains.

  632. Well, it’s not a “single minded emphasis on education.” But the Fed chairman does seem to believe that education (together with the opoid epidemic) is why American labor force participation is so much lower than other developed economies.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/02/15/powell-labor-force/
    Granted, he was responding to a Senator who was fishing for something about the welfare state discouraging people from working. (Which, Powell pointed out, is nonsense.) But the pount remains.

  633. from the essay….
    “Of course we should have more college—absolutely—and yes, it should be cheaper, if not free. But more college should be part of a new and more democratic education that reflects a new and more democratic workplace. There are many examples in Europe—I urge people to read the work of scholars like Kathleen Thelen at MIT and others who study those European alternatives to our form of capitalism. And within Europe, Denmark is still the gold standard. Denmark has firmly committed itself to education at all levels, at all points of life. Under the Danish system, the state makes a heavy investment in training that makes no distinctions and eliminates boundaries: It is the same commitment to the employed as to the unemployed, for students from white-collar and blue-collar backgrounds, for college graduate and high school graduate, and early in life and in mid-career. It is not our idea of job training—it’s not focused on any specific manufacturing-type skill, nor is it occupationally based in principle. The idea behind this kind of lifetime instruction is indeed to get people out of narrow occupational roles by giving them continued education in social and communication skills for a knowledge-based and service-based economy”

  634. from the essay….
    “Of course we should have more college—absolutely—and yes, it should be cheaper, if not free. But more college should be part of a new and more democratic education that reflects a new and more democratic workplace. There are many examples in Europe—I urge people to read the work of scholars like Kathleen Thelen at MIT and others who study those European alternatives to our form of capitalism. And within Europe, Denmark is still the gold standard. Denmark has firmly committed itself to education at all levels, at all points of life. Under the Danish system, the state makes a heavy investment in training that makes no distinctions and eliminates boundaries: It is the same commitment to the employed as to the unemployed, for students from white-collar and blue-collar backgrounds, for college graduate and high school graduate, and early in life and in mid-career. It is not our idea of job training—it’s not focused on any specific manufacturing-type skill, nor is it occupationally based in principle. The idea behind this kind of lifetime instruction is indeed to get people out of narrow occupational roles by giving them continued education in social and communication skills for a knowledge-based and service-based economy”

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