Meanwhile in the Wider World — Open Thread

by

by wj

While we have (understandably) been focused on the tragedies of the past week here, interesting things have been happening in the rest of the world as well.

In Russia, there continue to be protests in spite of heavy police actions against them. A case could be made that Putin is getting progressively more rattled. And not without reason.

Meanwhile in China, protests are now into their third month. They started over a proposed extradition (or mainland China) law, since put on hold — although not actually withdrawn. But they have morphed into more general pro-democracy protests. All this leaves Xi with a serious problem — to the point that China’s media are now referencing the “color revolutions” in Ukraine, Georgia, etc.
1) If this keeps up, people elsewhere in China may start to entertain similar ideas about the desirability of having some say in how the country is run. Which a guy who apparently wants to emulate Mao definitely doesn’t want. But
2) It’s increasingly clear that the Hong Kong government’s law enforcement folks are not going to be able to shut the protests down. If anything, their actions seem to be motivating more protests. The only way to make it stop may be to send in the People’s Liberation Army. However
3) China promised Hong Kong 50 years of autonomy, and it’s barely been 20. The example of Hong Kong has been held up as a model for the reintegration of Taiwan. And sending in the PLA to crush a protest is not going to make that case very convincing.

Oh yes, and (following an early morning tweet, of course) the US Treasury has labeled China a “currency manipulator.” The cause? China has STOPPED intervening in the markets to prop up their currency — that is, they have stopped manipulating it. For which they get labeled a manipulator now. Welcome thru the looking glass. Trump has also slapped more tariffs on Chinese goods. In response to which China has terminated ALL purchases of US agricultural products. Great days to be an American farmer.

In south Asia, India has terminated Kashmir’s special status and also it’s status as a state. And their Internet access was totally shut off. It appears to be a move by Mr Modi to energize his followers and bring Kashmir to heal. Whether it will achieve the latter is questionable.

In a brighter note, we have a first for the Arab world: an openly gay candidate for President in Tunisia — where gay sex is still illegal. Actually still only a potential candidate. He’s filed papers with the election commission, with twice the requited number of signatures; what they will do remains to be seen. But just that much is a milestone.

No doubt there’s more that I’ve missed, for example the latest idiocies on Brexit. But you’re on your own for that. Open Thread

1,118 thoughts on “Meanwhile in the Wider World — Open Thread”

  1. Janie, no idea how I unpinned your post. If it was something I did. But feel free to put it back on top if you can.

  2. Janie, no idea how I unpinned your post. If it was something I did. But feel free to put it back on top if you can.

  3. “A case could be made that Putin is getting progressively more rattled.”
    I see what you did there.
    Let me fix it.
    A case could be made that Putin is getting conservatively more rattled.
    All conservative movement regimes around the world will experience the death rattle, as humanity rises up and destroys them.

  4. “A case could be made that Putin is getting progressively more rattled.”
    I see what you did there.
    Let me fix it.
    A case could be made that Putin is getting conservatively more rattled.
    All conservative movement regimes around the world will experience the death rattle, as humanity rises up and destroys them.

  5. wj – not a problem, I unpinned it myself, thinking that I wasn’t giving it steady enough attention to warrant pinning. We can put it back, or maybe make a link to it in the sidebar. Going traveling for a few days, so if I don’t get to it right away, that’s why.

  6. wj – not a problem, I unpinned it myself, thinking that I wasn’t giving it steady enough attention to warrant pinning. We can put it back, or maybe make a link to it in the sidebar. Going traveling for a few days, so if I don’t get to it right away, that’s why.

  9. Not just Trump.
    I guess it’s possible he killed himself, but the list of possible suspects for suborning his murder is likely a long one.

  10. Not just Trump.
    I guess it’s possible he killed himself, but the list of possible suspects for suborning his murder is likely a long one.

  17. Most typos are merely mildly embarrassing. But that one, which completely reversed the meaning? Seriously embarrassing!

  18. Most typos are merely mildly embarrassing. But that one, which completely reversed the meaning? Seriously embarrassing!

  19. The Clintons did it.
    It’s curious how Trump, who almost certainly has never read the book, has contrived to turn Hillary into Emmanuel Goldstein.

  20. The Clintons did it.
    It’s curious how Trump, who almost certainly has never read the book, has contrived to turn Hillary into Emmanuel Goldstein.

  25. That’s doublethink, wj.
    Speaking of which, the Japanese Korean relationship is a really strange one.
    As the trade, and bitter political dispute sparked by litigation over WWII behaviour by Japanese companies escalates, and Korean consumers boycott Japanese goods on a large scale….
    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/08/10/national/media-national/japan-south-korea-trade-spat-gains-little-traction-among-youth-social-media/
    …There doesn’t seem to be an equivalent retaliatory movement in Japan at this time. Another Mainichi Shimbun feature that was published on July 20 suggests that the rift has had little effect on Japanese youth’s love of Korean pop culture. A Mainichi reporter visited the Shin-Okubo district of Tokyo, the heart of Korean pop commerce in Japan, and found that there has been no diminution of enthusiasm for all things Korean among Japanese young people, who tend to discriminate between government policy and cultural appeal.
    In interviews with various Japanese teens in the area, the Mainichi Shimbun found that South Korea is considered more fashionable than Japan is. Some study the Korean language and, despite the diplomatic crisis, Japan seems to be going through its third so-called Korean wave.
    The first started around 2003 with the popularity of the TV soap opera “Winter Sonata.” The second was around 2011, launched when K-pop groups such as TVXQ and Girls’ Generation appeared on NHK’s year-end music contest. However, according to one trend-tracking company interviewed by Mainichi, the third wave is even bigger.
    The first two were limited to specific pop culture fields, while the present one covers a wide spectrum, from idols to cosmetics to food. According to the company’s survey of 180 women aged between 10 and their 30s, 90 percent of teenage girls said that South Korea is the “source” of all the current trends they follow.…

  26. That’s doublethink, wj.
    Speaking of which, the Japanese Korean relationship is a really strange one.
    As the trade, and bitter political dispute sparked by litigation over WWII behaviour by Japanese companies escalates, and Korean consumers boycott Japanese goods on a large scale….
    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/08/10/national/media-national/japan-south-korea-trade-spat-gains-little-traction-among-youth-social-media/
    …There doesn’t seem to be an equivalent retaliatory movement in Japan at this time. Another Mainichi Shimbun feature that was published on July 20 suggests that the rift has had little effect on Japanese youth’s love of Korean pop culture. A Mainichi reporter visited the Shin-Okubo district of Tokyo, the heart of Korean pop commerce in Japan, and found that there has been no diminution of enthusiasm for all things Korean among Japanese young people, who tend to discriminate between government policy and cultural appeal.
    In interviews with various Japanese teens in the area, the Mainichi Shimbun found that South Korea is considered more fashionable than Japan is. Some study the Korean language and, despite the diplomatic crisis, Japan seems to be going through its third so-called Korean wave.
    The first started around 2003 with the popularity of the TV soap opera “Winter Sonata.” The second was around 2011, launched when K-pop groups such as TVXQ and Girls’ Generation appeared on NHK’s year-end music contest. However, according to one trend-tracking company interviewed by Mainichi, the third wave is even bigger.
    The first two were limited to specific pop culture fields, while the present one covers a wide spectrum, from idols to cosmetics to food. According to the company’s survey of 180 women aged between 10 and their 30s, 90 percent of teenage girls said that South Korea is the “source” of all the current trends they follow.…

  27. FWIW, Seth Abramson tweeted the following “EPSTEIN FACTS”, to be shared widely when people try to link the Clintons to Epstein’s suicide:
    1) He told a journalist that for years he and Trump were “best friends”
    2) He told a journalist he underwrote Trump’s purchase of Mar-a-Lago
    3) An associate told a journalist that Trump *went to Epstein’s home* on 12/24/17
    4) There are signs he managed cash for MBS
    Nigel, On the subject of Korean cultural influence generally, I don’t know how widely this is known among men/women who aren’t obsessed with skincare etc, but for a few years now South Korean skincare practices have been the driving force behind much of high-end (including French, Swiss etc) skincare brands’ products. As if women weren’t obsessed enough with onerous “beauty”routines, I believe the typical modern Korean skincare regime now consists of about 10-12 separate steps/products, morning and night. Nice and profitable, and as a side benefit keeps women susceptible to this kind of thing insecure and on the back foot.

  28. FWIW, Seth Abramson tweeted the following “EPSTEIN FACTS”, to be shared widely when people try to link the Clintons to Epstein’s suicide:
    1) He told a journalist that for years he and Trump were “best friends”
    2) He told a journalist he underwrote Trump’s purchase of Mar-a-Lago
    3) An associate told a journalist that Trump *went to Epstein’s home* on 12/24/17
    4) There are signs he managed cash for MBS
    Nigel, On the subject of Korean cultural influence generally, I don’t know how widely this is known among men/women who aren’t obsessed with skincare etc, but for a few years now South Korean skincare practices have been the driving force behind much of high-end (including French, Swiss etc) skincare brands’ products. As if women weren’t obsessed enough with onerous “beauty”routines, I believe the typical modern Korean skincare regime now consists of about 10-12 separate steps/products, morning and night. Nice and profitable, and as a side benefit keeps women susceptible to this kind of thing insecure and on the back foot.

  29. I guess it’s possible he killed himself, but the list of possible suspects for suborning his murder is likely a long one.
    Has anyone seen the Maxwell woman lately? I believe she’s a British citizen, so is probably hiding out over there somewhere. All the same people that benefit from Epstein’s death would also benefit from hers.

  30. I guess it’s possible he killed himself, but the list of possible suspects for suborning his murder is likely a long one.
    Has anyone seen the Maxwell woman lately? I believe she’s a British citizen, so is probably hiding out over there somewhere. All the same people that benefit from Epstein’s death would also benefit from hers.

  31. GftNC,
    So Seth tweets a bunch of completely uncorroborated and unattributed accusations about Trump to use to deflect from the court documents naming Clinton being referenced. To what end? They both seem pretty in deep here to me.

  32. GftNC,
    So Seth tweets a bunch of completely uncorroborated and unattributed accusations about Trump to use to deflect from the court documents naming Clinton being referenced. To what end? They both seem pretty in deep here to me.

  33. Marty, I didn’t bother to look up corroboration for Seth Abramson’s numbered list, because a) who has the time, and b) I actually remembered reading about some of these statements at the time they were uttered, or around Epstein’s proceedings. They are worth noting because Trump himself has retweeted something by someone called Terrence K Williams with the hashtags ClintonBodyCount and ClintonCrimeFamily. I repeat, Trump himself has retweeted this.
    Apart from that, I agree, Bill Clinton, Trump, Prince Andrew and no doubt many others must be rejoicing right about now.

  34. Marty, I didn’t bother to look up corroboration for Seth Abramson’s numbered list, because a) who has the time, and b) I actually remembered reading about some of these statements at the time they were uttered, or around Epstein’s proceedings. They are worth noting because Trump himself has retweeted something by someone called Terrence K Williams with the hashtags ClintonBodyCount and ClintonCrimeFamily. I repeat, Trump himself has retweeted this.
    Apart from that, I agree, Bill Clinton, Trump, Prince Andrew and no doubt many others must be rejoicing right about now.

  37. Meanwhile, the President’s Chief of Staff admitted that the plan to relocate various Federal agencies across the country was never about improving efficiency (the supposed rationale). Rather, it was always about inducing expert Federal employees, who can’t be fired, to quit rather than uproot their families and relocate.
    Awkward that the Inspector General reports that, with their usual incompetence, the administration seems to have violated the laws about how the process must work.

  38. Meanwhile, the President’s Chief of Staff admitted that the plan to relocate various Federal agencies across the country was never about improving efficiency (the supposed rationale). Rather, it was always about inducing expert Federal employees, who can’t be fired, to quit rather than uproot their families and relocate.
    Awkward that the Inspector General reports that, with their usual incompetence, the administration seems to have violated the laws about how the process must work.

  39. “completely uncorroborated and unattributed accusations”
    Wake me when both sides are even steven.
    And even then … Genghis Khan.

  40. “completely uncorroborated and unattributed accusations”
    Wake me when both sides are even steven.
    And even then … Genghis Khan.

  43. I repeat, Trump himself has retweeted this.
    Trump does things every day that would ruin the career of any other politician. and the GOP supports him. supports? adores, celebrates their celebrity troll President.
    i hope they don’t expect to go back to the old rules, once Trump has left the building.

  44. I repeat, Trump himself has retweeted this.
    Trump does things every day that would ruin the career of any other politician. and the GOP supports him. supports? adores, celebrates their celebrity troll President.
    i hope they don’t expect to go back to the old rules, once Trump has left the building.

  45. Call me conspiracy-minded. Call me RWNJ-level paranoid. But:
    Has any independent source like 3 different reporters actually seen Epstein’s corpse and poked it in the eye with a stick?
    –TP

  46. Call me conspiracy-minded. Call me RWNJ-level paranoid. But:
    Has any independent source like 3 different reporters actually seen Epstein’s corpse and poked it in the eye with a stick?
    –TP

  47. Whomever killed Epstein, even if it was by his own hand, will take the place of Jack Ruby in America’s paranoid, reality tabloid profit center imagination.
    It will be mysterious grassy knoll sightings (the 16-year old Hillary Clinton’s shadow was lurking even then) and rumors all the way down for a couple of decades.
    Regarding uncorroborated and unattributed accusations, I’m just now catching up with Marty in that category during his flights of fancy during the eight years of the Obama Administration and then Clinton’s campaign.
    Was it the flu, multiple sclerosis, terminal leukemia, or some strain of lesbian AIDS that she was hiding behind those coughing fits?
    At least two conservatives entertained us here with those inquiring mindless speculations.
    p wins all of this.
    You can’t win a shitting contest against an entire political movement made of subhuman shit.

  48. Whomever killed Epstein, even if it was by his own hand, will take the place of Jack Ruby in America’s paranoid, reality tabloid profit center imagination.
    It will be mysterious grassy knoll sightings (the 16-year old Hillary Clinton’s shadow was lurking even then) and rumors all the way down for a couple of decades.
    Regarding uncorroborated and unattributed accusations, I’m just now catching up with Marty in that category during his flights of fancy during the eight years of the Obama Administration and then Clinton’s campaign.
    Was it the flu, multiple sclerosis, terminal leukemia, or some strain of lesbian AIDS that she was hiding behind those coughing fits?
    At least two conservatives entertained us here with those inquiring mindless speculations.
    p wins all of this.
    You can’t win a shitting contest against an entire political movement made of subhuman shit.

  49. All of the claims that Epstein’s death is a windfall for the SDNY prosecutors by removing any limits on the use of evidence seem to trace back to one retired prosecutor. IANAL, but doubt that there are any conditions under which prosecutors get free rein.

  50. All of the claims that Epstein’s death is a windfall for the SDNY prosecutors by removing any limits on the use of evidence seem to trace back to one retired prosecutor. IANAL, but doubt that there are any conditions under which prosecutors get free rein.

  51. It might be easier to list elites who aren’t possible suspects in Epstein’s suicide.
    Over the past few years I’ve become more open to conspiracy theories in general and not only because of Trump, . I don’t mean that I actually support any given conspiracy theory. I just mean that I don’t necessarily trust mainstream sources to tell the truth about events when there is no way for the average person to be able to tell what is really happening.
    Take the standard conspiracy obsession— who killed JFK. I have spent decades shrugging. I refuse to start reading about it. There are massive tomes, whole libraries, written to defend the mainstream account and to demolish it with mutually contradictory theories about who really did it. In theory I care— in practice life is too short to give a shit. It might have been Oswald acting alone— my Bayesian prior for that is 50 percent. The other 50– well a big chunk to the CIA or anti Castro Cubans or the Mafia or crazed rightwingers or all the above or maybe it was Castro getting revenge for attempts on him. I could start looking at the evidence to shift my prior. But why bother? At the end I still won’t know or worse, I might become a cranky obsessive about something where it makes absolutely no difference what cranky obsessives believe. If I am going to do that then at least do it about something really interesting, like the Navy UFO photos videos the NYT reported on in 2017. I do know what you are supposed to say to be considered a Serious Person and for practical purposes this is all that matters.
    Anyway, the crap our elites pull which is right out in the open and often still gets ignored is probably worse than most of the conspiracy theories anyway.
    Still, this Epstein suicide might show some in the elite class are getting really really sloppy. You should pull this crap in other countries, preferably non English speaking.

  52. It might be easier to list elites who aren’t possible suspects in Epstein’s suicide.
    Over the past few years I’ve become more open to conspiracy theories in general and not only because of Trump, . I don’t mean that I actually support any given conspiracy theory. I just mean that I don’t necessarily trust mainstream sources to tell the truth about events when there is no way for the average person to be able to tell what is really happening.
    Take the standard conspiracy obsession— who killed JFK. I have spent decades shrugging. I refuse to start reading about it. There are massive tomes, whole libraries, written to defend the mainstream account and to demolish it with mutually contradictory theories about who really did it. In theory I care— in practice life is too short to give a shit. It might have been Oswald acting alone— my Bayesian prior for that is 50 percent. The other 50– well a big chunk to the CIA or anti Castro Cubans or the Mafia or crazed rightwingers or all the above or maybe it was Castro getting revenge for attempts on him. I could start looking at the evidence to shift my prior. But why bother? At the end I still won’t know or worse, I might become a cranky obsessive about something where it makes absolutely no difference what cranky obsessives believe. If I am going to do that then at least do it about something really interesting, like the Navy UFO photos videos the NYT reported on in 2017. I do know what you are supposed to say to be considered a Serious Person and for practical purposes this is all that matters.
    Anyway, the crap our elites pull which is right out in the open and often still gets ignored is probably worse than most of the conspiracy theories anyway.
    Still, this Epstein suicide might show some in the elite class are getting really really sloppy. You should pull this crap in other countries, preferably non English speaking.

  53. “Still, this Epstein suicide might show some in the elite class are getting really really sloppy. You should pull this crap in other countries, preferably non English speaking.”
    You mean like having the brother of a Presidential candidate mess around with voter lists and count/recount rules in a tight election?
    Our Republic, she is bananas. Has been for at least 20 years.

  54. “Still, this Epstein suicide might show some in the elite class are getting really really sloppy. You should pull this crap in other countries, preferably non English speaking.”
    You mean like having the brother of a Presidential candidate mess around with voter lists and count/recount rules in a tight election?
    Our Republic, she is bananas. Has been for at least 20 years.

  55. Examples of undeniable crap our elites pull without consequence t themselves—
    Yemen, of course, and various other murderous genocidal policies which should be capital crimes.
    But worse than complicity in genocide would be the conspiracy to deny global warming carried out by Exxon when their own scientists told them the truth decades ago.
    https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2019/08/15/climate-change-burning-down-house/
    A society run on those terms should expect some elites acting like Caligula in their personal lives. Hell, we even have a jackass as our American consul.

  56. Examples of undeniable crap our elites pull without consequence t themselves—
    Yemen, of course, and various other murderous genocidal policies which should be capital crimes.
    But worse than complicity in genocide would be the conspiracy to deny global warming carried out by Exxon when their own scientists told them the truth decades ago.
    https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2019/08/15/climate-change-burning-down-house/
    A society run on those terms should expect some elites acting like Caligula in their personal lives. Hell, we even have a jackass as our American consul.

  57. Marty wrote: “accusations about Trump to use to deflect from the court documents naming Clinton being referenced.”
    Please cite the documents chapter and verse.
    Maybe you are right.
    But so far, the only thing you have corroborated is KellyAnne Conway’s mouthshitting:
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/conway-defend-trump-boost-conspiracy-theories
    By the way, I am for all of the rot being exposed, regardless of target, and I want the country to go thru debilitating political chaos in pursuit of it.
    We deserve it.
    We’ve skated on frozen ponds of raw, untreated sewage long enough.

  58. Marty wrote: “accusations about Trump to use to deflect from the court documents naming Clinton being referenced.”
    Please cite the documents chapter and verse.
    Maybe you are right.
    But so far, the only thing you have corroborated is KellyAnne Conway’s mouthshitting:
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/conway-defend-trump-boost-conspiracy-theories
    By the way, I am for all of the rot being exposed, regardless of target, and I want the country to go thru debilitating political chaos in pursuit of it.
    We deserve it.
    We’ve skated on frozen ponds of raw, untreated sewage long enough.

  59. Apart from that, I agree, Bill Clinton, Trump, Prince Andrew and no doubt many others must be rejoicing right about now.
    Why do you include Clinton?
    The newly released documents name the following names: Bill Richardson, Prince Andrew, Glenn Dubin, George Mitchell, Jean-Luc Brunel, Marvin Minsky, and Alan Dershowitz. Trump and Epstein were accused of rape in a different case, which was dropped (allegedly because of intimidation).
    Clinton is known to have partied with Epstein, and to have flown on his jet, and, considering Epstein’s reputation, any association is in itself sleezy. But, unless I’ve missed something, there have been no accusations of Clinton assaulting the women that Epstein was trafficking.
    The current accusations are obviously shocking and awful, and we’ll no doubt learn more. To be clear, I’m not defending anyone who was involved, including Clinton if we find out that he was.

  60. Apart from that, I agree, Bill Clinton, Trump, Prince Andrew and no doubt many others must be rejoicing right about now.
    Why do you include Clinton?
    The newly released documents name the following names: Bill Richardson, Prince Andrew, Glenn Dubin, George Mitchell, Jean-Luc Brunel, Marvin Minsky, and Alan Dershowitz. Trump and Epstein were accused of rape in a different case, which was dropped (allegedly because of intimidation).
    Clinton is known to have partied with Epstein, and to have flown on his jet, and, considering Epstein’s reputation, any association is in itself sleezy. But, unless I’ve missed something, there have been no accusations of Clinton assaulting the women that Epstein was trafficking.
    The current accusations are obviously shocking and awful, and we’ll no doubt learn more. To be clear, I’m not defending anyone who was involved, including Clinton if we find out that he was.

  61. Donald, America, the multi-tasking can-do society, can prosecute all of those crimes against humanity on multiple, parallel tracks.
    I’m happy to convene grand juries to indict all Caligulas AND Genghis Khans, posthumously and in absentia where necessary.

  62. Donald, America, the multi-tasking can-do society, can prosecute all of those crimes against humanity on multiple, parallel tracks.
    I’m happy to convene grand juries to indict all Caligulas AND Genghis Khans, posthumously and in absentia where necessary.

  63. I’m sure important anti-abortion and pro-choice notables alike have been dues-paying members of secret societies that rape women and men, the more underaged the better, since history started being recorded.
    In fact, that’s the main reason why history wasn’t recorded before that … to bury the evidence.

  64. I’m sure important anti-abortion and pro-choice notables alike have been dues-paying members of secret societies that rape women and men, the more underaged the better, since history started being recorded.
    In fact, that’s the main reason why history wasn’t recorded before that … to bury the evidence.

  65. “You mean like having the brother of a Presidential candidate mess around with voter lists and count/recount rules in a tight election?”
    I actually forgot about Florida in 2000.
    Just recalled the Brooks Brothers riot. Those were the days.

  66. “You mean like having the brother of a Presidential candidate mess around with voter lists and count/recount rules in a tight election?”
    I actually forgot about Florida in 2000.
    Just recalled the Brooks Brothers riot. Those were the days.

  67. Re: Donald @1:15: this reminds me of the Gish Gallop. And yes, life is too short.
    It also reminds me of a saying of Mark Twain’s:

    “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”

    I’m afraid our entire polity right now is caught in a double bind along those lines.

  68. Re: Donald @1:15: this reminds me of the Gish Gallop. And yes, life is too short.
    It also reminds me of a saying of Mark Twain’s:

    “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”

    I’m afraid our entire polity right now is caught in a double bind along those lines.

  69. Re Gish gallops—
    Creationist arguments were among the first areas. where I encountered fringe theories— this was in high school and college. I went to a lecture by Gish— out of curiosity. I was never a creationist— in fact, it came as a shock to me in high school when I found out many people, including some of my friends and my high school Latin teacher ( forgot all of it) believed this stuff. It actually did me good to think about how to refute them. It made evolutionary theory more interesting. It’s become a lifelong on again off again hobby. I probably read more about it because of the creationists, even dipping my toes into population genetics ( low level only— I can follow Gillespie’s intro text but haven’t pushed myself to read higher level stuff). I sometimes have thought it might actually make high school science classes more interesting if they taught the creationist and ID arguments and then showed how to poke holes in them. A few of the arguments are actually interesting— like, for instance, is there a way to calculate the maximum rate at which beneficial mutations could be substituted. But in practice I understand teaching time in high school is limited and if creationist arguments were refuted creationist parents would be even more upset. It might be a good approach with some children. Or me, anyway.
    In politics the fringe is sometimes correct, IMO, but it can be difficult or impossible to tell in some cases, so I try to avoid getting caught up obsessing about them. The JFK thing has always had me running in the opposite direction. Of course, some conspiracy theories are transparently moronic. That’s helpful.

  70. Re Gish gallops—
    Creationist arguments were among the first areas. where I encountered fringe theories— this was in high school and college. I went to a lecture by Gish— out of curiosity. I was never a creationist— in fact, it came as a shock to me in high school when I found out many people, including some of my friends and my high school Latin teacher ( forgot all of it) believed this stuff. It actually did me good to think about how to refute them. It made evolutionary theory more interesting. It’s become a lifelong on again off again hobby. I probably read more about it because of the creationists, even dipping my toes into population genetics ( low level only— I can follow Gillespie’s intro text but haven’t pushed myself to read higher level stuff). I sometimes have thought it might actually make high school science classes more interesting if they taught the creationist and ID arguments and then showed how to poke holes in them. A few of the arguments are actually interesting— like, for instance, is there a way to calculate the maximum rate at which beneficial mutations could be substituted. But in practice I understand teaching time in high school is limited and if creationist arguments were refuted creationist parents would be even more upset. It might be a good approach with some children. Or me, anyway.
    In politics the fringe is sometimes correct, IMO, but it can be difficult or impossible to tell in some cases, so I try to avoid getting caught up obsessing about them. The JFK thing has always had me running in the opposite direction. Of course, some conspiracy theories are transparently moronic. That’s helpful.

  71. “like, for instance, is there a way to calculate the maximum rate at which beneficial mutations could be substituted.”
    Called Haldane’s dilemma. It was a point of controversy in population genetics at one time and played a role in the arguments for the neutral theory before creationists got hold of it. I am not sure where it stands now.

  72. “like, for instance, is there a way to calculate the maximum rate at which beneficial mutations could be substituted.”
    Called Haldane’s dilemma. It was a point of controversy in population genetics at one time and played a role in the arguments for the neutral theory before creationists got hold of it. I am not sure where it stands now.

  73. Nice and profitable, and as a side benefit keeps women susceptible to this kind of thing insecure and on the back foot…
    My wife tells me their facemasks are excellent, and not expensive.

  74. Nice and profitable, and as a side benefit keeps women susceptible to this kind of thing insecure and on the back foot…
    My wife tells me their facemasks are excellent, and not expensive.

  75. sapient @ 01.35: you may have a point. I include Clinton because life is too short to research every detail, and since he is a known friend/contact of Epstein and traveller on the “Lolita Express”, and since there is enough evidence (e.g in the Paula Jones case) to suspect him of sexual misbehaviour (to put it at its most innocuous), I wanted to make it clear that if he is implicated, I am open to the possibility that (to say the least) he is relieved by and rejoices in the death of Epstein and the subsequent lessening of the likelihood that he would be involved in anything other than the fevered ravings of Trump and his contemptible apologists. But if he is in the category of “less likely to be implicated”, I would be happy, and so much the better.

  76. sapient @ 01.35: you may have a point. I include Clinton because life is too short to research every detail, and since he is a known friend/contact of Epstein and traveller on the “Lolita Express”, and since there is enough evidence (e.g in the Paula Jones case) to suspect him of sexual misbehaviour (to put it at its most innocuous), I wanted to make it clear that if he is implicated, I am open to the possibility that (to say the least) he is relieved by and rejoices in the death of Epstein and the subsequent lessening of the likelihood that he would be involved in anything other than the fevered ravings of Trump and his contemptible apologists. But if he is in the category of “less likely to be implicated”, I would be happy, and so much the better.

  77. My wife tells me their facemasks are excellent, and not expensive.
    I hope I made it clear that I am not completely (although mostly!) immune. Does your wife carry out the 10-12 separate steps, morning and night?

  78. My wife tells me their facemasks are excellent, and not expensive.
    I hope I made it clear that I am not completely (although mostly!) immune. Does your wife carry out the 10-12 separate steps, morning and night?

  79. and since there is enough evidence (e.g in the Paula Jones case) to suspect him of sexual misbehaviour (to put it at its most innocuous)
    I would put the Monica Lewinsky debacle in this category also. I’m deeply in favor of people’s sex lives being no one’s business but their own, or theirs and their partners’ (long explanations sidestepped in a blog comment). But in the context of the world we actually live in, Bill Clinton has been, at the very least, careless of consequences. And in that way, kind of stupid, in a very familiar “how can someone so smart be so dumb” kind of way.
    My entire adult life has been in part an exercise in demythologizing noted people, both in and out of government. I believe that everyone is flawed one way or another, and that’s the human condition. But if George Mitchell ever went off the rails in Epstein’s realm I will retire to a monastery and never trust my judgment about any human being ever again.

  80. and since there is enough evidence (e.g in the Paula Jones case) to suspect him of sexual misbehaviour (to put it at its most innocuous)
    I would put the Monica Lewinsky debacle in this category also. I’m deeply in favor of people’s sex lives being no one’s business but their own, or theirs and their partners’ (long explanations sidestepped in a blog comment). But in the context of the world we actually live in, Bill Clinton has been, at the very least, careless of consequences. And in that way, kind of stupid, in a very familiar “how can someone so smart be so dumb” kind of way.
    My entire adult life has been in part an exercise in demythologizing noted people, both in and out of government. I believe that everyone is flawed one way or another, and that’s the human condition. But if George Mitchell ever went off the rails in Epstein’s realm I will retire to a monastery and never trust my judgment about any human being ever again.

  81. It might be easier to list elites who aren’t possible suspects in Epstein’s suicide.
    Or, more accurately, would be relieved to find that he was dead.
    And that’s probably about as much as anybody here knows, or can say, about it.

  82. It might be easier to list elites who aren’t possible suspects in Epstein’s suicide.
    Or, more accurately, would be relieved to find that he was dead.
    And that’s probably about as much as anybody here knows, or can say, about it.

  83. I had to look up who George Mitchell was. Here’s hoping….(apart from anything, I don’t want Janie to retire to a monastery).
    Personally, if the Paula Jones allegations are accurate, I put them in a completely different category to Bill Clinton’s Monica Lewinsky actions, because the latter (as we have previously discussed, and always admitting disparity of power etc) were at least consensual. However, you can’t deny that Bill Clinton was, as Janie says, “at the very least, careless of consequences”, and we must hope that powerful men are starting to be learn that the consequences of predation, or even sexual indiscretions, can be very dangerous to them.

  84. I had to look up who George Mitchell was. Here’s hoping….(apart from anything, I don’t want Janie to retire to a monastery).
    Personally, if the Paula Jones allegations are accurate, I put them in a completely different category to Bill Clinton’s Monica Lewinsky actions, because the latter (as we have previously discussed, and always admitting disparity of power etc) were at least consensual. However, you can’t deny that Bill Clinton was, as Janie says, “at the very least, careless of consequences”, and we must hope that powerful men are starting to be learn that the consequences of predation, or even sexual indiscretions, can be very dangerous to them.

  85. By the way, my comment about George Mitchell was not intended as a blanket statement, or really any statement at all, about Giuffre’s accusations or truthfulness. I don’t doubt her story in general, including that Epstein told her she had to have sex with Mitchell, among many other men. I have no doubt that Epstein was am evil, manipulative, lying psychopath. Beyond that — I’m sure we’ll never know the whole of it.

  86. By the way, my comment about George Mitchell was not intended as a blanket statement, or really any statement at all, about Giuffre’s accusations or truthfulness. I don’t doubt her story in general, including that Epstein told her she had to have sex with Mitchell, among many other men. I have no doubt that Epstein was am evil, manipulative, lying psychopath. Beyond that — I’m sure we’ll never know the whole of it.

  87. Epstein probably knew that a lot of the people who were going to be relieved that he killed himself would probably be very upset if he were to start talking – have to assume he had some no-so-fancy contacts in all of this. he probably figured he was going to end up dead one way or another; might as well do it himself.

  88. Epstein probably knew that a lot of the people who were going to be relieved that he killed himself would probably be very upset if he were to start talking – have to assume he had some no-so-fancy contacts in all of this. he probably figured he was going to end up dead one way or another; might as well do it himself.

  89. It seems reasonable to ( tentatively) assume Epstein did kill himself. It’s convenient that he was allowed to do so. Of course there is always the incompetence defense, which might be true, but after awhile it seems like American exceptionalism. Other countries have murderous elites.. We have good intentions gone awry or just plain incompetence. We are special that way.
    But it might be incompetence, which is kind of like the evil all excusing superpower America possesses.

  90. It seems reasonable to ( tentatively) assume Epstein did kill himself. It’s convenient that he was allowed to do so. Of course there is always the incompetence defense, which might be true, but after awhile it seems like American exceptionalism. Other countries have murderous elites.. We have good intentions gone awry or just plain incompetence. We are special that way.
    But it might be incompetence, which is kind of like the evil all excusing superpower America possesses.

  93. It might be incompetence. But from what I have seen so far, it appears that multiple people would have had to act contrary to standard operating procedure.
    Incompetence on behalf of a single person is quite possible. We see it repeatedly, after all, in members of this administration. But those are typically people who are political appointees who are unfamiliar which how things are supposed to be done. To have multiple career officials suddenly acting contrary to their own usual working procedures? That is, absent other evidence, something of a stretch.

  94. It might be incompetence. But from what I have seen so far, it appears that multiple people would have had to act contrary to standard operating procedure.
    Incompetence on behalf of a single person is quite possible. We see it repeatedly, after all, in members of this administration. But those are typically people who are political appointees who are unfamiliar which how things are supposed to be done. To have multiple career officials suddenly acting contrary to their own usual working procedures? That is, absent other evidence, something of a stretch.

  95. And now for something completely different:
    ICE raids 5 slaughterhouses (“poultry processing plants”) and arrests over 600 workers for being “undocumented”. Even Marty might wonder how many plant managers were arrested for hiring so many “illegals”. Answer: ZERO, of course.
    And why zero? “Acting” DHS Secretary Kevin McAleenan had a ready answer for the resolutely “moderate” Chuck Todd on Meet the Press: “Our investigation is on-going”. No Sherlock is our little Kevin.
    I’d like to hear Marty’s opinion on what’s to investigate. For that matter, unless one or more of the corporate “employers” involved have him on retainer, I’d be interested in McKinney’s theory of a plausible defense for them.
    –TP

  96. And now for something completely different:
    ICE raids 5 slaughterhouses (“poultry processing plants”) and arrests over 600 workers for being “undocumented”. Even Marty might wonder how many plant managers were arrested for hiring so many “illegals”. Answer: ZERO, of course.
    And why zero? “Acting” DHS Secretary Kevin McAleenan had a ready answer for the resolutely “moderate” Chuck Todd on Meet the Press: “Our investigation is on-going”. No Sherlock is our little Kevin.
    I’d like to hear Marty’s opinion on what’s to investigate. For that matter, unless one or more of the corporate “employers” involved have him on retainer, I’d be interested in McKinney’s theory of a plausible defense for them.
    –TP

  99. https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/i-was-told-epstein-belonged-to-intelligence-and-to-leave-it-alone
    I expect nothing to come of this, not because I think it false but because I expect that if it were true nothing would come of it.
    But I knew about Epstein years ago. I don’t even know where I first read about the Lolita express. So if everyone knew about it, I would guess some intelligence agencies here or there might have stumbled across it and would want to know just what Epstein knew about whom. High ranking prominent people who, gosh, might have done a lot more than supposed urinate on a bed. It just seems like catnip for people in the professional spy and blackmail business. Even from a counterintelligence viewpoint you would want to know if people with nat sec secrets could be blackmailed.
    This is me being conspiratorial and there is no way to prove it, but to me it is much more plausible that there are spies involved in this somewhere than not. In fact , you would have to assume cosmic scale incompetence on the part of spies everywhere if they weren’t interested in Epstein years ago, if not actually involved in running his little hobby.
    Of course I am not being original. You can find more specific speculations elsewhere, but why bother? We aren’t going to know. What I expect from the msm is a bunch of people telling us not to be conspiratorial.

  100. https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/i-was-told-epstein-belonged-to-intelligence-and-to-leave-it-alone
    I expect nothing to come of this, not because I think it false but because I expect that if it were true nothing would come of it.
    But I knew about Epstein years ago. I don’t even know where I first read about the Lolita express. So if everyone knew about it, I would guess some intelligence agencies here or there might have stumbled across it and would want to know just what Epstein knew about whom. High ranking prominent people who, gosh, might have done a lot more than supposed urinate on a bed. It just seems like catnip for people in the professional spy and blackmail business. Even from a counterintelligence viewpoint you would want to know if people with nat sec secrets could be blackmailed.
    This is me being conspiratorial and there is no way to prove it, but to me it is much more plausible that there are spies involved in this somewhere than not. In fact , you would have to assume cosmic scale incompetence on the part of spies everywhere if they weren’t interested in Epstein years ago, if not actually involved in running his little hobby.
    Of course I am not being original. You can find more specific speculations elsewhere, but why bother? We aren’t going to know. What I expect from the msm is a bunch of people telling us not to be conspiratorial.

  101. We aren’t going to know. What I expect from the msm is a bunch of people telling us not to be conspiratorial.
    I’m pretty sure everyone has a theory. There are certainly many plausible conspiracy theories considering who we’re dealing with. Russian intelligence, CIA, both, mob, rich people, blah blah blah.
    Honestly, it’s a huge scandal, and a horrifying injustice, and has tentacles into the corruption that affects all of us [the Bill Barr connection alone is creepy as hell], and we probably don’t know the half of it, but in the scheme of things, considering that we have a whole immigration policy that’s devoted to cruelty en masse, and people being shot down daily, and our country being run by someone who is dedicated to f’ing us over, the Epstein story is …. I don’t even know anymore. Please make it stop.

  102. We aren’t going to know. What I expect from the msm is a bunch of people telling us not to be conspiratorial.
    I’m pretty sure everyone has a theory. There are certainly many plausible conspiracy theories considering who we’re dealing with. Russian intelligence, CIA, both, mob, rich people, blah blah blah.
    Honestly, it’s a huge scandal, and a horrifying injustice, and has tentacles into the corruption that affects all of us [the Bill Barr connection alone is creepy as hell], and we probably don’t know the half of it, but in the scheme of things, considering that we have a whole immigration policy that’s devoted to cruelty en masse, and people being shot down daily, and our country being run by someone who is dedicated to f’ing us over, the Epstein story is …. I don’t even know anymore. Please make it stop.

  103. Epstein was not on suicide watch at the time of his death. He was supposed to have a cell mate, and was supposed to have a guard check on him every 30 minutes. Those protocols were not followed, and good luck figuring out where in the bureaucracy of the NYC prison system that decision was made.
    Seems to me that Epstein died from a widespread lack of interest in keeping him alive. I’m not sure any sekrit plots were needed.

  104. Epstein was not on suicide watch at the time of his death. He was supposed to have a cell mate, and was supposed to have a guard check on him every 30 minutes. Those protocols were not followed, and good luck figuring out where in the bureaucracy of the NYC prison system that decision was made.
    Seems to me that Epstein died from a widespread lack of interest in keeping him alive. I’m not sure any sekrit plots were needed.

  105. I’m not sure any sekrit plots were needed.
    Probably not, but it would help if there hadn’t been so many plots to keep him out of jail, plots to quiet his victims, and plots to obstruct justice for wealthy people in other realms.
    Other than rubbernecking fascination, I’m not sure how much I care about this particular case, considering the ongoing decimation of “justice” every which way otherwise. It’s hard to sort out what’s worthy and what’s a distraction anymore. But it sure does smell bad.

  106. I’m not sure any sekrit plots were needed.
    Probably not, but it would help if there hadn’t been so many plots to keep him out of jail, plots to quiet his victims, and plots to obstruct justice for wealthy people in other realms.
    Other than rubbernecking fascination, I’m not sure how much I care about this particular case, considering the ongoing decimation of “justice” every which way otherwise. It’s hard to sort out what’s worthy and what’s a distraction anymore. But it sure does smell bad.

  109. “Seems to me that Epstein died from a widespread lack of interest in keeping him alive. I’m not sure any sekrit plots were needed.”
    Yes, but you can frame those exact words in two different ways.
    The first way is dismissive and it is what the press is busy doing. It was just incompetence. Epstein is barely cold and already people are flocking to warn us away from conspiracy theories. Hell is freezing over, but I agree with sapient here, but will go further. It is hard to believe that there weren’t intelligence agencies from more than one country ( maybe several) looking into Epstein and the activities of his friends ( if they weren’t involved more directly) but if so, I don’t expect we will hear about this. I also don’t expect the “ quality” press to be of any use. Maybe things will come out decades from now. Even then it might be ignored.
    The other way to frame your words is this— if Epstein were a defector from some massive organized crime cell or terrorist group or from an adversarial country and was clearly suicidal, the government would have made every effort to ensure he stayed alive to tell what he knew, unless what he knew might spill back on people here. In fact, Epstein probably had dirt on a lot of people. It is dangerous to give a direct order to have a suicide watch lifted, but if that is normal practice it doesn’t have to be given. There’s no “ sekrit plot” to be found. If he didn’t kill himself there would be plans B and C and D.
    “It’s hard to sort out what’s worthy and what’s a distraction anymore. ”
    Human rights violations both here and abroad are generally the most important thing. But Epstein is shocking in a way beyond any political scandal we have seen before because it is about an ongoing human rights violation conducted personally by members of our elites and it was covered up. He was running a child sex abuse organization. And it is really hard to believe that the entire world’s intelligence agencies were too stupid to notice this going on. But hey, if the quality press doesn’t want us getting conspiratorial in our thinking, then I can only obey my thought fuhrers.

  110. “Seems to me that Epstein died from a widespread lack of interest in keeping him alive. I’m not sure any sekrit plots were needed.”
    Yes, but you can frame those exact words in two different ways.
    The first way is dismissive and it is what the press is busy doing. It was just incompetence. Epstein is barely cold and already people are flocking to warn us away from conspiracy theories. Hell is freezing over, but I agree with sapient here, but will go further. It is hard to believe that there weren’t intelligence agencies from more than one country ( maybe several) looking into Epstein and the activities of his friends ( if they weren’t involved more directly) but if so, I don’t expect we will hear about this. I also don’t expect the “ quality” press to be of any use. Maybe things will come out decades from now. Even then it might be ignored.
    The other way to frame your words is this— if Epstein were a defector from some massive organized crime cell or terrorist group or from an adversarial country and was clearly suicidal, the government would have made every effort to ensure he stayed alive to tell what he knew, unless what he knew might spill back on people here. In fact, Epstein probably had dirt on a lot of people. It is dangerous to give a direct order to have a suicide watch lifted, but if that is normal practice it doesn’t have to be given. There’s no “ sekrit plot” to be found. If he didn’t kill himself there would be plans B and C and D.
    “It’s hard to sort out what’s worthy and what’s a distraction anymore. ”
    Human rights violations both here and abroad are generally the most important thing. But Epstein is shocking in a way beyond any political scandal we have seen before because it is about an ongoing human rights violation conducted personally by members of our elites and it was covered up. He was running a child sex abuse organization. And it is really hard to believe that the entire world’s intelligence agencies were too stupid to notice this going on. But hey, if the quality press doesn’t want us getting conspiratorial in our thinking, then I can only obey my thought fuhrers.

  111. I also don’t expect the “quality” press to be of any use
    and i don’t expect the non-“quality” press to be of any use because they are rarely more than bloggers with budgets.
    but, the great thing about this Epstein affair is that it’s broad enough, with just the right amount of facts, so that everyone can bring their own interpretation to it. it’s the perfect medium on which to grow conspiracy theories.

  112. I also don’t expect the “quality” press to be of any use
    and i don’t expect the non-“quality” press to be of any use because they are rarely more than bloggers with budgets.
    but, the great thing about this Epstein affair is that it’s broad enough, with just the right amount of facts, so that everyone can bring their own interpretation to it. it’s the perfect medium on which to grow conspiracy theories.

  113. “And it is really hard to believe that the entire world’s intelligence agencies were too stupid to notice this going on.”
    It’s the intersectionality (see what I did there) of Epstein’s espionage contacts around the world, the business and government mega-rich and powerful around the world, and his obsessively-organized perversion activities around the globe, and the promiscuous (in the many senses of the word) movement back and forth among the three that is not only a bottomless fascination but will be the nutrient-rich medium from which a thousand conspiracies will bloom and will be tended to, both to deny involvement and to cultivate hatred against their enemies among and by all of the above interests.
    Was his criminal underaged girl perversion his vocation or his avocation? Was blackmail is vocation or his avocation? Was being an impresario of some peculiar sort (and on behalf of whom?) his vocation or his avocation?
    As to who killed him, even if by his own hand, only Hercule Poirot could identify all of the hands plunging the dagger/knotting the hangman’s noose.
    Everyone on the Orient Express, including the station masters at either end of his curious life journey had an interest in his mysterious activities from the beginnings of that journey to the end.
    He’a cipher, whose meaning may be infinite or precisely zero.
    For every monstrous thing going in the world these past decades.

  114. “And it is really hard to believe that the entire world’s intelligence agencies were too stupid to notice this going on.”
    It’s the intersectionality (see what I did there) of Epstein’s espionage contacts around the world, the business and government mega-rich and powerful around the world, and his obsessively-organized perversion activities around the globe, and the promiscuous (in the many senses of the word) movement back and forth among the three that is not only a bottomless fascination but will be the nutrient-rich medium from which a thousand conspiracies will bloom and will be tended to, both to deny involvement and to cultivate hatred against their enemies among and by all of the above interests.
    Was his criminal underaged girl perversion his vocation or his avocation? Was blackmail is vocation or his avocation? Was being an impresario of some peculiar sort (and on behalf of whom?) his vocation or his avocation?
    As to who killed him, even if by his own hand, only Hercule Poirot could identify all of the hands plunging the dagger/knotting the hangman’s noose.
    Everyone on the Orient Express, including the station masters at either end of his curious life journey had an interest in his mysterious activities from the beginnings of that journey to the end.
    He’a cipher, whose meaning may be infinite or precisely zero.
    For every monstrous thing going in the world these past decades.

  117. Tucker Carlson disappeared from the poisonous FOX (run until recently by Roger Ailes, the fat, juicy-with-venom, conservative movement, web-weaving, trafficker-of-twirling-hot-blonde-pseudo-lying- journalists spider) airwaves on August 8, ostensibly on vacation.
    Epstein was dead on August 10.

  118. Tucker Carlson disappeared from the poisonous FOX (run until recently by Roger Ailes, the fat, juicy-with-venom, conservative movement, web-weaving, trafficker-of-twirling-hot-blonde-pseudo-lying- journalists spider) airwaves on August 8, ostensibly on vacation.
    Epstein was dead on August 10.

  125. I’d be interested in McKinney’s theory of a plausible defense for them.
    I’d say, “Round up the usual suspects” pretty much explains it. Job ‘creators’ are granted certain privileges and immunities that peons such as us have no need to know anything about.

  126. I’d be interested in McKinney’s theory of a plausible defense for them.
    I’d say, “Round up the usual suspects” pretty much explains it. Job ‘creators’ are granted certain privileges and immunities that peons such as us have no need to know anything about.

  129. Carlson did it, huh? That figures. There goes my mutant cockroach theory.
    You mean Carlson isn’t a mutant cockroach??? Who knew?

  130. Carlson did it, huh? That figures. There goes my mutant cockroach theory.
    You mean Carlson isn’t a mutant cockroach??? Who knew?

  131. One early August morning, when Tucker Carlson woke from troubled dreams, he found himself transformed in his bed into a horrible vermin. He lay on his armour-like back, and if he lifted his head a little he could see his brown belly, slightly domed and divided by arches into stiff sections. The bedding was hardly able to cover it and seemed ready to slide off any moment. His many legs, pitifully thin compared with the size of the rest of him, waved about helplessly as he looked.

  132. One early August morning, when Tucker Carlson woke from troubled dreams, he found himself transformed in his bed into a horrible vermin. He lay on his armour-like back, and if he lifted his head a little he could see his brown belly, slightly domed and divided by arches into stiff sections. The bedding was hardly able to cover it and seemed ready to slide off any moment. His many legs, pitifully thin compared with the size of the rest of him, waved about helplessly as he looked.

  133. But it sure does smell bad.
    Yes, it’s utterly and profoundly corrupt.
    Good luck indeed, as it is a federal jail
    For the question at hand, I’m not sure that is a distinction with a difference.
    Yes, but you can frame those exact words in two different ways.
    Only two?
    I’m approximately in agreement with sapient. Everybody is suddenly focused on the Epstein “whodunit”. I’m not sure how important of a question that is.
    The simplest explanation is that Epstein, a famous pedophile and trafficker in minors for sex, hung himself. The opportunity and means for doing so “somehow appeared”, apparently in violation of correct protocol. He may simply have been invited to do it by other inmates, with a promise that he’d make a much more painful exit if he failed to follow through. They may even have provided him with whatever it was he hung himself with.
    Whitey Bulger was transferred to the US Pen in Hazleton PA. He was well known for providing information about his criminal opponents to the feds. Somehow, within 24 hours of his arrival there, he was “found unresponsive” in his cell, having been mutilated and beaten to death by what appears to have been a small parade of other inmates. Which, I am certain, violates some kind of official prison protocol.
    John Geoghan, famous Catholic priest pedophile, was murdered in his cell, while under protective custody in a maximum security state prison in MA. He was killed by another guy in the same unit, who was serving a life sentence without parole for killing a guy who attempted to molest him. Prison officials were said to have “shown poor judgement” in placing both guys in the same unit, even though they had been warned that Geoghan’s murderer was planning to kill him.
    Certain categories of prisoner basically walk around with a target on their backs. And prison protocols famously, or infamously, sometimes somehow “fail to be observed” around them.
    Epstein’s death could have been a super-secret cover-up assassination, or the prison staff could have simply not been that interested in making sure he didn’t hang himself. I don’t know which, but either is completely plausible. The “negligent” prison staff one just has fewer moving parts, so that’s where I’d put my money.
    In any case, what smells bad here is not, certainly not just, how Epstein died, or at whose hands, but his entire life story. And the degree to which, and ease with which, his personal brand of corruption was able to insinuate itself with people who hold positions of public responsibility.
    My expectation is that a Very Serious Investigation will follow, which will find that some prison official decided that Epstein seemed to have cheered up a bit since his first suicide attempt, so they figured the suicide watch was no longer needed. Oopsie.
    Maybe some mid-level guy will even get fired, but I’d actually be surprised if it all went that deep.
    If there’s more to it than that, people like us are unlikely to ever be privy to it.
    The information I’m interested in is what the hell was going on while he was alive.

  134. But it sure does smell bad.
    Yes, it’s utterly and profoundly corrupt.
    Good luck indeed, as it is a federal jail
    For the question at hand, I’m not sure that is a distinction with a difference.
    Yes, but you can frame those exact words in two different ways.
    Only two?
    I’m approximately in agreement with sapient. Everybody is suddenly focused on the Epstein “whodunit”. I’m not sure how important of a question that is.
    The simplest explanation is that Epstein, a famous pedophile and trafficker in minors for sex, hung himself. The opportunity and means for doing so “somehow appeared”, apparently in violation of correct protocol. He may simply have been invited to do it by other inmates, with a promise that he’d make a much more painful exit if he failed to follow through. They may even have provided him with whatever it was he hung himself with.
    Whitey Bulger was transferred to the US Pen in Hazleton PA. He was well known for providing information about his criminal opponents to the feds. Somehow, within 24 hours of his arrival there, he was “found unresponsive” in his cell, having been mutilated and beaten to death by what appears to have been a small parade of other inmates. Which, I am certain, violates some kind of official prison protocol.
    John Geoghan, famous Catholic priest pedophile, was murdered in his cell, while under protective custody in a maximum security state prison in MA. He was killed by another guy in the same unit, who was serving a life sentence without parole for killing a guy who attempted to molest him. Prison officials were said to have “shown poor judgement” in placing both guys in the same unit, even though they had been warned that Geoghan’s murderer was planning to kill him.
    Certain categories of prisoner basically walk around with a target on their backs. And prison protocols famously, or infamously, sometimes somehow “fail to be observed” around them.
    Epstein’s death could have been a super-secret cover-up assassination, or the prison staff could have simply not been that interested in making sure he didn’t hang himself. I don’t know which, but either is completely plausible. The “negligent” prison staff one just has fewer moving parts, so that’s where I’d put my money.
    In any case, what smells bad here is not, certainly not just, how Epstein died, or at whose hands, but his entire life story. And the degree to which, and ease with which, his personal brand of corruption was able to insinuate itself with people who hold positions of public responsibility.
    My expectation is that a Very Serious Investigation will follow, which will find that some prison official decided that Epstein seemed to have cheered up a bit since his first suicide attempt, so they figured the suicide watch was no longer needed. Oopsie.
    Maybe some mid-level guy will even get fired, but I’d actually be surprised if it all went that deep.
    If there’s more to it than that, people like us are unlikely to ever be privy to it.
    The information I’m interested in is what the hell was going on while he was alive.

  135. it is really hard to believe that the entire world’s intelligence agencies were too stupid to notice this going on.
    They probably thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread.

  136. it is really hard to believe that the entire world’s intelligence agencies were too stupid to notice this going on.
    They probably thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread.

  145. Epstein’s death could have been a super-secret cover-up assassination, or the prison staff could have simply not been that interested in making sure he didn’t hang himself. I don’t know which, but either is completely plausible. The “negligent” prison staff one just has fewer moving parts, so that’s where I’d put my money.
    I’d more or less agree – but it would hardly have to be a ‘super-secret cover-up’.
    A plain vanilla hit would be perfectly possible.
    And some players are not unfamiliar with the New York crime world.
    Occam is not conclusive in this case.

  146. Epstein’s death could have been a super-secret cover-up assassination, or the prison staff could have simply not been that interested in making sure he didn’t hang himself. I don’t know which, but either is completely plausible. The “negligent” prison staff one just has fewer moving parts, so that’s where I’d put my money.
    I’d more or less agree – but it would hardly have to be a ‘super-secret cover-up’.
    A plain vanilla hit would be perfectly possible.
    And some players are not unfamiliar with the New York crime world.
    Occam is not conclusive in this case.

  147. Since it’s an open thread… The administration announced new rules for how it would enforce the Endangered Species Act in the future. The rules are expected to be published in the Federal Register this week, and would be effective 30 days after publication. Among other things, the new rules make it more difficult to consider climate change as part of any analysis.

  148. Since it’s an open thread… The administration announced new rules for how it would enforce the Endangered Species Act in the future. The rules are expected to be published in the Federal Register this week, and would be effective 30 days after publication. Among other things, the new rules make it more difficult to consider climate change as part of any analysis.

  149. “Epstein’s death could have been a super-secret cover-up assassination, or the prison staff could have simply not been that interested in making sure he didn’t hang himself.”
    My point is that if Epstein had been someone the government really wanted kept alive— if he had information they really wanted to get out— he would have been kept alive. I have no problem necessarily with the theory that nobody gave any orders. It wouldn’t have been necessary— good old American incompetence would do the job. Why risk giving orders when it was likely that sooner or later Epstein would do it himself and our wonderful prison system wouldn’t stop him? Then we can have investigations finding no conspiracy, just some bumbling prison officials. And whatever Epstein might have said, the story should now be easier to manage. I for one am doubtful that everyone in government us really eager to get to the bottom of this story and I don’t mean his death.
    Or it might be an actual assassination that an investigation would uncover. Maybe the incompetence goes right to the top. But I am guessing it was allowing and hoping for nature to take its course.

  150. “Epstein’s death could have been a super-secret cover-up assassination, or the prison staff could have simply not been that interested in making sure he didn’t hang himself.”
    My point is that if Epstein had been someone the government really wanted kept alive— if he had information they really wanted to get out— he would have been kept alive. I have no problem necessarily with the theory that nobody gave any orders. It wouldn’t have been necessary— good old American incompetence would do the job. Why risk giving orders when it was likely that sooner or later Epstein would do it himself and our wonderful prison system wouldn’t stop him? Then we can have investigations finding no conspiracy, just some bumbling prison officials. And whatever Epstein might have said, the story should now be easier to manage. I for one am doubtful that everyone in government us really eager to get to the bottom of this story and I don’t mean his death.
    Or it might be an actual assassination that an investigation would uncover. Maybe the incompetence goes right to the top. But I am guessing it was allowing and hoping for nature to take its course.

  151. Some typos there, but hopefully you can figure it out.
    But to beat this horse to death, I also think the false dichotomy being set up here— actual ordered hit job versus mere incompetence— is incompetence ( at best) on the part of the press. The question is why, knowing that either suicide or murder as likely, the government didn’t make it a top priority to ensure Epstein didn’t die. Don’t they want to know if current or former US officials were blackmailed or compromised or guilty of rape? But no, don’t ask that rather obvious question. Make it all about those crazy conspiracy nuts on the inter webs.

  152. Some typos there, but hopefully you can figure it out.
    But to beat this horse to death, I also think the false dichotomy being set up here— actual ordered hit job versus mere incompetence— is incompetence ( at best) on the part of the press. The question is why, knowing that either suicide or murder as likely, the government didn’t make it a top priority to ensure Epstein didn’t die. Don’t they want to know if current or former US officials were blackmailed or compromised or guilty of rape? But no, don’t ask that rather obvious question. Make it all about those crazy conspiracy nuts on the inter webs.

  153. I for one am doubtful that everyone in government us really eager to get to the bottom of this story
    I’m somewhat jaded these days and would substitute “almost anyone” for your “everyone”.
    But no, don’t ask that rather obvious question. Make it all about those crazy conspiracy nuts on the inter webs.
    Yes, I agree that the focus on “who done it?” distracts from the substance of who may have been caught up in Epstein’s perverse little world.
    And yes, the failure to keep the focus where it should be belongs to the press. Perhaps others, but certainly them.
    I don’t think there is much daylight between our points of view here.

  154. I for one am doubtful that everyone in government us really eager to get to the bottom of this story
    I’m somewhat jaded these days and would substitute “almost anyone” for your “everyone”.
    But no, don’t ask that rather obvious question. Make it all about those crazy conspiracy nuts on the inter webs.
    Yes, I agree that the focus on “who done it?” distracts from the substance of who may have been caught up in Epstein’s perverse little world.
    And yes, the failure to keep the focus where it should be belongs to the press. Perhaps others, but certainly them.
    I don’t think there is much daylight between our points of view here.

  155. Don’t they want to know if current or former US officials were blackmailed or compromised or guilty of rape?
    You seem to be assuming that they don’t already know. (Whether from the recent searches of his residences, or from earlier.) That seems a heroic assumption.

  156. Don’t they want to know if current or former US officials were blackmailed or compromised or guilty of rape?
    You seem to be assuming that they don’t already know. (Whether from the recent searches of his residences, or from earlier.) That seems a heroic assumption.

  157. The new Endangered Species Act rules make it easier to consider climate change in the butchering and slaughtering of the spotted conservative movement, whose habitat is increasingly worldwide at the higher altitudes of power in business and government.
    Economic considerations will assume a larger context when hunting down individual conservative vermin: $100 per head, far above their economic worth.
    Habitats in which conservatives swim upstream to spawn and raise their offspring will be unusually hard hit, nipping things in the bid being a priority shared even by conservative babies held under for the count in the bathtub.
    https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a28679988/trump-administration-endangered-species-act/
    Deep State Marty will along shortly to reassure us, his halo slightly askew from being sat on, that the private sector will still be pushing beyond meat while the government encourages, indeed mandates the decimation of everything finned, winged, and four-footed.
    I reassure everyone that the lowly bovine species, Wilbur Ross, will not be harmed during the filming of my next Genghis Khan Studios blockbuster film release: “Republicans Taste Just Like Chicken”.

  158. The new Endangered Species Act rules make it easier to consider climate change in the butchering and slaughtering of the spotted conservative movement, whose habitat is increasingly worldwide at the higher altitudes of power in business and government.
    Economic considerations will assume a larger context when hunting down individual conservative vermin: $100 per head, far above their economic worth.
    Habitats in which conservatives swim upstream to spawn and raise their offspring will be unusually hard hit, nipping things in the bid being a priority shared even by conservative babies held under for the count in the bathtub.
    https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a28679988/trump-administration-endangered-species-act/
    Deep State Marty will along shortly to reassure us, his halo slightly askew from being sat on, that the private sector will still be pushing beyond meat while the government encourages, indeed mandates the decimation of everything finned, winged, and four-footed.
    I reassure everyone that the lowly bovine species, Wilbur Ross, will not be harmed during the filming of my next Genghis Khan Studios blockbuster film release: “Republicans Taste Just Like Chicken”.

  159. Michael Cain @ 05:01 above,
    Yes, this is the real crime, the lickspittle Trump administration at work servicing our economic masters…move all the scientists who can stand to stay on to some place like Holcomb, Kansas (no insult intended), and then, just to grind it in, don’t let them do the science.
    Drain the swamp you yell at his rallies? Well, here it is. You got your wish, m-effers.
    This is but one of the thousands of cuts this bunch of thug-o-crats is inflicting on our polity.
    TOSS THEM OUT.

  160. Michael Cain @ 05:01 above,
    Yes, this is the real crime, the lickspittle Trump administration at work servicing our economic masters…move all the scientists who can stand to stay on to some place like Holcomb, Kansas (no insult intended), and then, just to grind it in, don’t let them do the science.
    Drain the swamp you yell at his rallies? Well, here it is. You got your wish, m-effers.
    This is but one of the thousands of cuts this bunch of thug-o-crats is inflicting on our polity.
    TOSS THEM OUT.

  163. “Epstein’s death could have been a super-secret cover-up assassination, or the prison staff could have simply not been that interested in making sure he didn’t hang himself.”
    I blame Zombie Jack Ruby.

  164. “Epstein’s death could have been a super-secret cover-up assassination, or the prison staff could have simply not been that interested in making sure he didn’t hang himself.”
    I blame Zombie Jack Ruby.

  165. The carrier pigeon, the bison, and now conservatives.
    I’ll be organizing shooting parties by helicopter, with armed drones available for remote online hunting for the enjoyment of those stuck at home, of prominent conservative species, stripped naked and given a count to ten to, in all residual human fairness, get away on foot.
    We’ll hold the mass kills in their conservative mating grounds, but only after we poison their waters with heavy metals and chemical spills, foul their air, and raise the temperature of their environment with massive applications of carbon dioxide, to kind of soften their gamey flesh up.

  166. The carrier pigeon, the bison, and now conservatives.
    I’ll be organizing shooting parties by helicopter, with armed drones available for remote online hunting for the enjoyment of those stuck at home, of prominent conservative species, stripped naked and given a count to ten to, in all residual human fairness, get away on foot.
    We’ll hold the mass kills in their conservative mating grounds, but only after we poison their waters with heavy metals and chemical spills, foul their air, and raise the temperature of their environment with massive applications of carbon dioxide, to kind of soften their gamey flesh up.

  169. wj @ 5:45 above,
    This. The SDNY grand jury had been investigating Epstein for what? Six months? A year? The prosecutors are good at that job. If there had been even a hint of a national security issue, unsealing the indictment would have been limited to a judge behind closed doors and Epstein would have been removed to someplace safe and comfortable. Put me down on the side that thinks sticking Epstein in a sh*thole like MCC indicates massive indifference, not incompetence or ignorance.

  170. wj @ 5:45 above,
    This. The SDNY grand jury had been investigating Epstein for what? Six months? A year? The prosecutors are good at that job. If there had been even a hint of a national security issue, unsealing the indictment would have been limited to a judge behind closed doors and Epstein would have been removed to someplace safe and comfortable. Put me down on the side that thinks sticking Epstein in a sh*thole like MCC indicates massive indifference, not incompetence or ignorance.

  173. Put me down on the side that thinks sticking Epstein in a sh*thole like MCC indicates massive indifference, not incompetence or ignorance.
    I’m afraid I’m not particularly knowledgeable when it comes to Bureau of Prisons facilities. What other facility would you consider more appropriate for someone awaiting trial in SDNY?

  174. Put me down on the side that thinks sticking Epstein in a sh*thole like MCC indicates massive indifference, not incompetence or ignorance.
    I’m afraid I’m not particularly knowledgeable when it comes to Bureau of Prisons facilities. What other facility would you consider more appropriate for someone awaiting trial in SDNY?

  175. I was blundering about on the internets today and found something (other than Joe Stalin’s memoirs) that I actually agree with.
    Somewhere over the rainbow.
    All of you have a good day. I insist.

  176. I was blundering about on the internets today and found something (other than Joe Stalin’s memoirs) that I actually agree with.
    Somewhere over the rainbow.
    All of you have a good day. I insist.

  179. Let us quibble over terminology while the conservative movement rapines.
    But yes, passenger pigeon.

  180. Let us quibble over terminology while the conservative movement rapines.
    But yes, passenger pigeon.

  181. The SDNY prosecutors searched Epstein’s home in the US Virgin Islands today. I interpret the timing of this — first day the courts are open after Epstein’s suicide, more than a month after they searched his NYC home — as an indicator of “Our conspiracy case doesn’t look real good, hoping for more evidence.”

  182. The SDNY prosecutors searched Epstein’s home in the US Virgin Islands today. I interpret the timing of this — first day the courts are open after Epstein’s suicide, more than a month after they searched his NYC home — as an indicator of “Our conspiracy case doesn’t look real good, hoping for more evidence.”

  183. What other facility would you consider more appropriate for someone awaiting trial in SDNY?
    Rikers might have been better if not more appropriate.

  184. What other facility would you consider more appropriate for someone awaiting trial in SDNY?
    Rikers might have been better if not more appropriate.

  187. I interpret the timing of this — first day the courts are open after Epstein’s suicide, more than a month after they searched his NYC home — as an indicator of “Our conspiracy case doesn’t look real good, hoping for more evidence.”
    I, on the other hand, would interpret is as “wading thru the piles of stuff from the first search, we’ve come across something that gives us probable cause to believe that we will find more dirt in the VI residence.”

  188. I interpret the timing of this — first day the courts are open after Epstein’s suicide, more than a month after they searched his NYC home — as an indicator of “Our conspiracy case doesn’t look real good, hoping for more evidence.”
    I, on the other hand, would interpret is as “wading thru the piles of stuff from the first search, we’ve come across something that gives us probable cause to believe that we will find more dirt in the VI residence.”

  189. This administration’s changes to the Endangered Species Act are exactly the sort of Death Panels that they feverishly imagined for people as part of the ACA.
    Exactly.
    “One of the penalties of an ecological education is that one lives alone in a world of wounds. Much of the damage inflicted on land is quite invisible to laymen. An ecologist must either harden his shell and make believe that the consequences of science are none of his business, or he must be the doctor who sees the marks of death in a community that believes itself well and does not want to be told otherwise.” -Aldo Leopold

  190. This administration’s changes to the Endangered Species Act are exactly the sort of Death Panels that they feverishly imagined for people as part of the ACA.
    Exactly.
    “One of the penalties of an ecological education is that one lives alone in a world of wounds. Much of the damage inflicted on land is quite invisible to laymen. An ecologist must either harden his shell and make believe that the consequences of science are none of his business, or he must be the doctor who sees the marks of death in a community that believes itself well and does not want to be told otherwise.” -Aldo Leopold

  191. From bobbyp’s link
    Banks and other financial companies create money out of thin air…They then get paid back by the people they loaned money to on money they created out of thin air. It takes a special sort of genius to run a business which can actually create money, yet still lose money.
    This claim is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how banking works. Banks can create money supply out of thin air, but not money for themselves.
    When a bank makes you a loan, it creates a loan account for you with a negative balance, and credits the money to your current account. So far this is out of thin air, that’s correct.
    But you then spend the money, for example by writing a cheque to be deposited in another bank. The interbank clearing process then tallies the money as a debt from the lending bank to the bank where the cheque has been deposited, to be paid immediately, or nearly so.
    So if the loan is never repaid, the lending bank loses the money. There’s no special genius involved.

  192. From bobbyp’s link
    Banks and other financial companies create money out of thin air…They then get paid back by the people they loaned money to on money they created out of thin air. It takes a special sort of genius to run a business which can actually create money, yet still lose money.
    This claim is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how banking works. Banks can create money supply out of thin air, but not money for themselves.
    When a bank makes you a loan, it creates a loan account for you with a negative balance, and credits the money to your current account. So far this is out of thin air, that’s correct.
    But you then spend the money, for example by writing a cheque to be deposited in another bank. The interbank clearing process then tallies the money as a debt from the lending bank to the bank where the cheque has been deposited, to be paid immediately, or nearly so.
    So if the loan is never repaid, the lending bank loses the money. There’s no special genius involved.

  193. Actually, none of it is out of thin air. Banks are required to have assets. They can loan more money than they have assets but that leverage is limited. What they have to have is enough assets to cover any losses.
    Then, the assets which are primarily deposits, are insured by the government. Gold based or fiat, the government is the ultimate creator of money based on the its ability to guarantee the money is good through the fed.
    Most important, the bank is using government currency to loan, its agreement with the Fed is that it wo thet loan more currency. Blah blah
    It’s a banking system, no one in the system is creating money from nothing.

  194. Actually, none of it is out of thin air. Banks are required to have assets. They can loan more money than they have assets but that leverage is limited. What they have to have is enough assets to cover any losses.
    Then, the assets which are primarily deposits, are insured by the government. Gold based or fiat, the government is the ultimate creator of money based on the its ability to guarantee the money is good through the fed.
    Most important, the bank is using government currency to loan, its agreement with the Fed is that it wo thet loan more currency. Blah blah
    It’s a banking system, no one in the system is creating money from nothing.

  199. In these modern times, only HALF of the money is ‘created from nothing’.
    The other half is created from ‘ones’.
    More or less.

  200. In these modern times, only HALF of the money is ‘created from nothing’.
    The other half is created from ‘ones’.
    More or less.

  201. Actually, none of it is out of thin air. Banks are required to have assets. They can loan more money than they have assets but that leverage is limited.
    This doesn’t necessarily mean that the money isn’t created from nothing. What it might mean is that banks can only create a limited amount of money from nothing (i.e. they aren’t completely unrestrained in their ability to create money).

  202. Actually, none of it is out of thin air. Banks are required to have assets. They can loan more money than they have assets but that leverage is limited.
    This doesn’t necessarily mean that the money isn’t created from nothing. What it might mean is that banks can only create a limited amount of money from nothing (i.e. they aren’t completely unrestrained in their ability to create money).

  203. What bobbyp (and others) said.
    If a bank could create money from nothing, everybody would set up their own bank, and never work again. Which, we observe, doesn’t happen. Also, banks would never be in a position where they had to be “rescued” — you may recall a number of those from the 2008 crash. There’s arguments about whether a bank should be considered “to big to fail”, but none at all about whether they could if not rescued by the government.

  204. What bobbyp (and others) said.
    If a bank could create money from nothing, everybody would set up their own bank, and never work again. Which, we observe, doesn’t happen. Also, banks would never be in a position where they had to be “rescued” — you may recall a number of those from the 2008 crash. There’s arguments about whether a bank should be considered “to big to fail”, but none at all about whether they could if not rescued by the government.

  205. Actually, none of it is out of thin air.
    Please read the link on fractional reserve banking.
    Banks are required to have assets.
    Please read up on double entry bookkeeping. Banks have assets (loans) as a matter of course.
    They can loan more money than they have assets but that leverage is limited.
    If the bank is a member of the federal reserve system, their leverage is dictated by their reserves (and loan demand), not their loans on the books.
    What they have to have is enough assets to cover any losses.
    LOL!!!!!!!!!! Well, perhaps. See banking crisis, 2008. A lot of ‘assets’ simply evaporated.
    Then, the assets which are primarily deposits, are insured by the government.
    Deposits are liabilities. FDIC insurance on any particular account is limited to $250k. The government does implicitly guarantee the solvency of the system.
    the government is the ultimate creator of money
    This is true.
    based on the its ability to guarantee the money is good through the fed.
    This is not true.
    Blah blah
    Now there is a convincing argument!
    It’s a banking system, no one in the system is creating money from nothing.
    The banking system taken as a whole creates money via loans. The fed no longer attempts to control the money supply directly (sorry Milton), rather it uses the indirect method of targeting interest rates.

  206. Actually, none of it is out of thin air.
    Please read the link on fractional reserve banking.
    Banks are required to have assets.
    Please read up on double entry bookkeeping. Banks have assets (loans) as a matter of course.
    They can loan more money than they have assets but that leverage is limited.
    If the bank is a member of the federal reserve system, their leverage is dictated by their reserves (and loan demand), not their loans on the books.
    What they have to have is enough assets to cover any losses.
    LOL!!!!!!!!!! Well, perhaps. See banking crisis, 2008. A lot of ‘assets’ simply evaporated.
    Then, the assets which are primarily deposits, are insured by the government.
    Deposits are liabilities. FDIC insurance on any particular account is limited to $250k. The government does implicitly guarantee the solvency of the system.
    the government is the ultimate creator of money
    This is true.
    based on the its ability to guarantee the money is good through the fed.
    This is not true.
    Blah blah
    Now there is a convincing argument!
    It’s a banking system, no one in the system is creating money from nothing.
    The banking system taken as a whole creates money via loans. The fed no longer attempts to control the money supply directly (sorry Milton), rather it uses the indirect method of targeting interest rates.

  209. But, bobbyp, there are capital requirements for banks (even in countries with no reserve requirements). The reserve requirement in the US is pretty much meaningless, but there are still capital requirements.

  210. But, bobbyp, there are capital requirements for banks (even in countries with no reserve requirements). The reserve requirement in the US is pretty much meaningless, but there are still capital requirements.

  211. Regeneron, a publicly-traded corporation staffed by gloriously incented human beings and a Federal Government agency, staffed by useless, overpaid, vermin federal employees, The National Institutes of Health, together, cure Ebola.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/12/health/ebola-outbreak-cure.html
    Time to gut the latter agency. Send those dead weight scientists to some American Siberia to be closer to the stinking, sniveling, subhuman republicans and conservatives who hate them, ESPECIALLY when the employees cure diseases, which is an unthinkable socialist attainment under the circumstances of their stock optionless, malingering employment, according to conservative dead filth.
    https://www.aip.org/fyi/2019/fy20-budget-request-national-institutes-health
    I wish an Ebola infection upon every conservative on Earth.
    I’d rather use bullets. They aren’t infectious, merely sporting.
    Ask for the private cure, fuckwads.

  212. Regeneron, a publicly-traded corporation staffed by gloriously incented human beings and a Federal Government agency, staffed by useless, overpaid, vermin federal employees, The National Institutes of Health, together, cure Ebola.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/12/health/ebola-outbreak-cure.html
    Time to gut the latter agency. Send those dead weight scientists to some American Siberia to be closer to the stinking, sniveling, subhuman republicans and conservatives who hate them, ESPECIALLY when the employees cure diseases, which is an unthinkable socialist attainment under the circumstances of their stock optionless, malingering employment, according to conservative dead filth.
    https://www.aip.org/fyi/2019/fy20-budget-request-national-institutes-health
    I wish an Ebola infection upon every conservative on Earth.
    I’d rather use bullets. They aren’t infectious, merely sporting.
    Ask for the private cure, fuckwads.

  213. What bobbyp (and others) said.
    Well, that’s embarrassing. When bobby posted a link to an explanation of fractional reserve banking, I innicently assumed he understood how banking actually works. You know, agreeing with the explanation that Marty and others had given. But clearly not. Oops.

  214. What bobbyp (and others) said.
    Well, that’s embarrassing. When bobby posted a link to an explanation of fractional reserve banking, I innicently assumed he understood how banking actually works. You know, agreeing with the explanation that Marty and others had given. But clearly not. Oops.

  215. Hang in there, John. Eventually they will have slashed all of the government except their own budgets . . . and the military. And you just know they won’t be able to stop, and won’t be willing to stint themselves. At which points, the “all government is evil” libertarians and the macho reactionaries will discover that allies of convenience aren’t friends forever.
    And since both are already gun enthusiasts, they’ll shoot up each other. No effort on your part required.

  216. Hang in there, John. Eventually they will have slashed all of the government except their own budgets . . . and the military. And you just know they won’t be able to stop, and won’t be willing to stint themselves. At which points, the “all government is evil” libertarians and the macho reactionaries will discover that allies of convenience aren’t friends forever.
    And since both are already gun enthusiasts, they’ll shoot up each other. No effort on your part required.

  217. Um, “shrieking and shouting”?
    Plus, there’s this:

    One of Epstein’s guards at the Metropolitan Correctional Center on the night he died was reportedly not a regular corrections officer.

    Moving my chips off the square marked “straight up suicide”.
    I know this is all serious stuff, and it’s not very cool to treat anyone’s death as a public spectacle, but the weirdness just keeps getting more and more overt.

  218. Um, “shrieking and shouting”?
    Plus, there’s this:

    One of Epstein’s guards at the Metropolitan Correctional Center on the night he died was reportedly not a regular corrections officer.

    Moving my chips off the square marked “straight up suicide”.
    I know this is all serious stuff, and it’s not very cool to treat anyone’s death as a public spectacle, but the weirdness just keeps getting more and more overt.

  219. https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/8/13/1878730/-Acting-Director-of-Immigration-Services-offers-the-most-Trumpian-take-on-give-us-your
    Cuccinelli, the vermin get of lice, rats, cockroaches, italians, and the irish, all of the creepy crawly disease/pox-ridden foreign shit that could skitter into my country during the 19th and early 20th centuries to set up criminal murderous enterprises and evade taxes while using the public facilities at will, opens his choleric sewer of a right-wing republican mouth.
    Antibiotics were invented to fight the scourges his male ancestors carried beneath their foreskins.
    Some history about his great grandmother, who blew both of my fine German great grandfathers before they settled down to till the fine Aryan salt of the American Earth.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/08/13/danger-vilifying-poor-immigrants/
    My replacement policy: One Cuccinelli, ankles tied together, overboard feet first, muerto.
    Replace him with ten Latin American human beings, newly minted Americans. Let’s get a little class back into government.
    Cuccinelli doesn’t care for political correctness, thus my retro vocabulary.
    I like to speak their language. English.
    Capiche, cocksuckers?

  220. https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/8/13/1878730/-Acting-Director-of-Immigration-Services-offers-the-most-Trumpian-take-on-give-us-your
    Cuccinelli, the vermin get of lice, rats, cockroaches, italians, and the irish, all of the creepy crawly disease/pox-ridden foreign shit that could skitter into my country during the 19th and early 20th centuries to set up criminal murderous enterprises and evade taxes while using the public facilities at will, opens his choleric sewer of a right-wing republican mouth.
    Antibiotics were invented to fight the scourges his male ancestors carried beneath their foreskins.
    Some history about his great grandmother, who blew both of my fine German great grandfathers before they settled down to till the fine Aryan salt of the American Earth.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/08/13/danger-vilifying-poor-immigrants/
    My replacement policy: One Cuccinelli, ankles tied together, overboard feet first, muerto.
    Replace him with ten Latin American human beings, newly minted Americans. Let’s get a little class back into government.
    Cuccinelli doesn’t care for political correctness, thus my retro vocabulary.
    I like to speak their language. English.
    Capiche, cocksuckers?

  221. hsh,
    Agree. Capital requirements are why everybody can’t just open a bank. Is the reserve requirement “pretty meaningless” because it has been superseded by the capital requirements put in place by Dodd-Frank (and subsequent modifications) or because it is rarely used? It is still a tool in the Fed’s toolbox. Let me know. Thanks.
    wj,
    LOL. What did I miss?

  222. hsh,
    Agree. Capital requirements are why everybody can’t just open a bank. Is the reserve requirement “pretty meaningless” because it has been superseded by the capital requirements put in place by Dodd-Frank (and subsequent modifications) or because it is rarely used? It is still a tool in the Fed’s toolbox. Let me know. Thanks.
    wj,
    LOL. What did I miss?

  223. Let me know.
    Particularly now, and for the last decade or so, because the excess reserves in the system are so great, anyone can borrow whatever they need to shore up there reserves, be it from the Fed or another bank. (Of course, few banks would need to do that, as the amount of excess reserves would indicate.)
    And the reserve ratio only applies to certain kinds of deposits, also, too.

  224. Let me know.
    Particularly now, and for the last decade or so, because the excess reserves in the system are so great, anyone can borrow whatever they need to shore up there reserves, be it from the Fed or another bank. (Of course, few banks would need to do that, as the amount of excess reserves would indicate.)
    And the reserve ratio only applies to certain kinds of deposits, also, too.

  225. “One of Epstein’s guards at the Metropolitan Correctional Center on the night he died was reportedly not a regular corrections officer.”
    Dollars to donuts that said “not a regular corrections officer” turns out to be impossible to track down.

  226. “One of Epstein’s guards at the Metropolitan Correctional Center on the night he died was reportedly not a regular corrections officer.”
    Dollars to donuts that said “not a regular corrections officer” turns out to be impossible to track down.

  229. From Russell’s link:
    “In an interview with our West Palm Beach affiliate WPEC, a former Florida corrections worker said Epstein was “treated like a celebrity” during his 13-month stint in a county jail after he pleaded guilty in 2008 to charges of soliciting a minor for prostitution. She claims his cell was regularly left unlocked and she saw him move freely through the dormitory area – sometimes completely naked – without repercussions.”
    The niggers in Florida wish they’d received that treatment from conservative republican and democratic party vermin government.

  230. From Russell’s link:
    “In an interview with our West Palm Beach affiliate WPEC, a former Florida corrections worker said Epstein was “treated like a celebrity” during his 13-month stint in a county jail after he pleaded guilty in 2008 to charges of soliciting a minor for prostitution. She claims his cell was regularly left unlocked and she saw him move freely through the dormitory area – sometimes completely naked – without repercussions.”
    The niggers in Florida wish they’d received that treatment from conservative republican and democratic party vermin government.

  231. Hillary Clinton expressly requested a silent execution, I’ll bet FOX News will report.
    I mean, you didn’t hear a peep out of Vince Foster didja?
    Nope, the soft fruity sound of a melon being thunked was all.

  232. Hillary Clinton expressly requested a silent execution, I’ll bet FOX News will report.
    I mean, you didn’t hear a peep out of Vince Foster didja?
    Nope, the soft fruity sound of a melon being thunked was all.

  233. This lacks the flair of JDT’s comments, but it’s actually a better discussion than I expected when I first came across it.
    https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/022416/why-banks-dont-need-your-money-make-loans.asp
    Excerpts:

    In today’s modern economy most money takes the form of deposits, but rather than being created by a group of savers entrusting the bank withholding their money, deposits are actually created when banks extend credit (i.e., create new loans). As Joseph Schumpeter once wrote, “It is much more realistic to say that the banks ‘create credit,’ that is, that they create deposits in their act of lending than to say that they lend the deposits that have been entrusted to them.”
    (…)
    If bank lending is constrained by anything at all, it is capital requirements, not reserve requirements. However, since capital requirements are specified as a ratio whose denominator consists of risk-weighted assets (RWAs), they are dependent on how risk is measured, which in turn is dependent on the subjective human judgment. Subjective judgment combined with ever-increasing profit-hungriness may lead some banks to underestimate the riskiness of their assets. Thus, even with regulatory capital requirements, there remains a significant amount of flexibility in the constraint imposed on banks’ ability to lend.

  234. This lacks the flair of JDT’s comments, but it’s actually a better discussion than I expected when I first came across it.
    https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/022416/why-banks-dont-need-your-money-make-loans.asp
    Excerpts:

    In today’s modern economy most money takes the form of deposits, but rather than being created by a group of savers entrusting the bank withholding their money, deposits are actually created when banks extend credit (i.e., create new loans). As Joseph Schumpeter once wrote, “It is much more realistic to say that the banks ‘create credit,’ that is, that they create deposits in their act of lending than to say that they lend the deposits that have been entrusted to them.”
    (…)
    If bank lending is constrained by anything at all, it is capital requirements, not reserve requirements. However, since capital requirements are specified as a ratio whose denominator consists of risk-weighted assets (RWAs), they are dependent on how risk is measured, which in turn is dependent on the subjective human judgment. Subjective judgment combined with ever-increasing profit-hungriness may lead some banks to underestimate the riskiness of their assets. Thus, even with regulatory capital requirements, there remains a significant amount of flexibility in the constraint imposed on banks’ ability to lend.

  235. William Barr’s father was once Epstein’s employer.
    The non-regular corrections officer being sought will be detained. The killing itself was the least important part of his job.
    He will frame Hillary Clinton for ordering and financing the hit.
    Your Republican Criminal Despotic Government at work, doing more with less.
    Remember the NYC Office of the Justice Department and their affection for Clinton during the campaign.

  236. William Barr’s father was once Epstein’s employer.
    The non-regular corrections officer being sought will be detained. The killing itself was the least important part of his job.
    He will frame Hillary Clinton for ordering and financing the hit.
    Your Republican Criminal Despotic Government at work, doing more with less.
    Remember the NYC Office of the Justice Department and their affection for Clinton during the campaign.

  239. Thanks, hsh. I read the entry. I was trying to convey the “expectations of profitability” part.
    As banks “lend first and look for reserves later” what happens when reserves become scarce? A Volcker moment?
    🙂

  240. Thanks, hsh. I read the entry. I was trying to convey the “expectations of profitability” part.
    As banks “lend first and look for reserves later” what happens when reserves become scarce? A Volcker moment?
    🙂

  241. Thank God for the Italians! Sans Columbus, of course.
    https://twitter.com/RealSaavedra/status/1161081413120090113?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1161100636995407872&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.marketwatch.com%2Fstory%2Ffox-news-host-sean-hannity-in-rare-split-from-trump-defends-cnns-chris-cuomo-2019-08-13
    That’s how you deal with fucking conservatives.
    Get Cuomo on the stage with p for the Presidential debates, and watch some vermin shit get in-their-face fucked up, with violence.

  242. Thank God for the Italians! Sans Columbus, of course.
    https://twitter.com/RealSaavedra/status/1161081413120090113?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1161100636995407872&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.marketwatch.com%2Fstory%2Ffox-news-host-sean-hannity-in-rare-split-from-trump-defends-cnns-chris-cuomo-2019-08-13
    That’s how you deal with fucking conservatives.
    Get Cuomo on the stage with p for the Presidential debates, and watch some vermin shit get in-their-face fucked up, with violence.

  247. As banks “lend first and look for reserves later” what happens when reserves become scarce? A Volcker moment?
    My naïve guess is that, assuming reserves wouldn’t become scarce too quickly, banks would, over time, become less likely to lend first. Wouldn’t that be nice?
    Sure, the economy would slow down, but it would be better than a catastrophic *systemic failure.*

  248. As banks “lend first and look for reserves later” what happens when reserves become scarce? A Volcker moment?
    My naïve guess is that, assuming reserves wouldn’t become scarce too quickly, banks would, over time, become less likely to lend first. Wouldn’t that be nice?
    Sure, the economy would slow down, but it would be better than a catastrophic *systemic failure.*

  249. I’d say, at this point, that the circle jerk called America is about kaputnik:
    It’s all too easy to get focused on how far we still have to go, and on how much we have backslid recently. And lose track of how far we have actually come — just in my lifetime.
    When I was born, most states still had anti-miscegenation laws on the books. When I was in college, it was routine for kids of East Asian ancestry to be told when they left for school “We know you’ll me meeting lots of people from other groups. And that’s OK. Just don’t bring home any (Chinese or Japanese, whichever the family wasn’t); they’re inferior!” Around the same time, a young white woman who married a black pro football star (Gene Upshaw) could get cut off by her family and never communicated with again.
    Do we still have a long ways to go? Absolutely. But despair comes when you lose track of how far we have actually managed to come. In spite of everything.

  250. I’d say, at this point, that the circle jerk called America is about kaputnik:
    It’s all too easy to get focused on how far we still have to go, and on how much we have backslid recently. And lose track of how far we have actually come — just in my lifetime.
    When I was born, most states still had anti-miscegenation laws on the books. When I was in college, it was routine for kids of East Asian ancestry to be told when they left for school “We know you’ll me meeting lots of people from other groups. And that’s OK. Just don’t bring home any (Chinese or Japanese, whichever the family wasn’t); they’re inferior!” Around the same time, a young white woman who married a black pro football star (Gene Upshaw) could get cut off by her family and never communicated with again.
    Do we still have a long ways to go? Absolutely. But despair comes when you lose track of how far we have actually managed to come. In spite of everything.

  251. Duly noted and appreciated, wj.
    Same here in my life experience.
    All the more reason to turn back all retrenchment, foot dragging, backsliding and reactionary, revanchist, deplorable hate.
    Stand athwart all those who belligerently stand athwart and yell “No!” over the painful, slow progress that has been accomplished for two and a half centuries to realize the Founders words, despite the Founders actions, and give not an inch of ground.
    Yes, judging the societal behavior and attitudes of those in the far past by today’s standards after all of the battles that have been fought and won is pointless.
    But those who today behave as those in the past and harbor hate for the Other will be judged by today’s standards, not the excuse-making of the past 240 years.
    They’ve got til Friday noon.
    Then we come back Monday and put up with the same old sorry shit, now trickled down in a torrent from our fucking institutions that once stood for something other than an infestation of cynical bullshit.

  252. Duly noted and appreciated, wj.
    Same here in my life experience.
    All the more reason to turn back all retrenchment, foot dragging, backsliding and reactionary, revanchist, deplorable hate.
    Stand athwart all those who belligerently stand athwart and yell “No!” over the painful, slow progress that has been accomplished for two and a half centuries to realize the Founders words, despite the Founders actions, and give not an inch of ground.
    Yes, judging the societal behavior and attitudes of those in the far past by today’s standards after all of the battles that have been fought and won is pointless.
    But those who today behave as those in the past and harbor hate for the Other will be judged by today’s standards, not the excuse-making of the past 240 years.
    They’ve got til Friday noon.
    Then we come back Monday and put up with the same old sorry shit, now trickled down in a torrent from our fucking institutions that once stood for something other than an infestation of cynical bullshit.

  255. But those who today behave as those in the past and harbor hate for the Other will be judged by today’s standards, not the excuse-making of the past 240 years.
    They’ve got til Friday noon.
    Perhaps a slightly optimistic deadline. But consider that (occasionally disgusting anomalies like Stephen Miller aside) most of the worst of them are at an age where they will be dying off unassisted. The next generation is far less bigoted — which is, of course, part of the source of their hysteria.

  256. But those who today behave as those in the past and harbor hate for the Other will be judged by today’s standards, not the excuse-making of the past 240 years.
    They’ve got til Friday noon.
    Perhaps a slightly optimistic deadline. But consider that (occasionally disgusting anomalies like Stephen Miller aside) most of the worst of them are at an age where they will be dying off unassisted. The next generation is far less bigoted — which is, of course, part of the source of their hysteria.

  257. p’s hiring freeze across federal prisons led to major staff shortages at the gulag where epstein checked out.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49322050
    Anything to force federal contract payoffs to the republican party’s Citizens Benighted donors in the private prison “industry” in the form of privatization, where you can be snuffed without transparency and accountability.

  258. p’s hiring freeze across federal prisons led to major staff shortages at the gulag where epstein checked out.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49322050
    Anything to force federal contract payoffs to the republican party’s Citizens Benighted donors in the private prison “industry” in the form of privatization, where you can be snuffed without transparency and accountability.

  259. I’ve been hearing about this demographic “dying off” forever.
    Unless these fresh-faced conservative white nationalists recently recruited by the conservative movement start dying off as teenagers, and soon, I’m going to be dead before the dying off is complete.

  260. I’ve been hearing about this demographic “dying off” forever.
    Unless these fresh-faced conservative white nationalists recently recruited by the conservative movement start dying off as teenagers, and soon, I’m going to be dead before the dying off is complete.

  263. Here’s how conservatism works.
    When Stephen Miller is executed for his crimes, the conservative white Christian movement will credit his demise to liberal, Democratic Party anti-Semitism, not his malignant white nationalist conservatism.
    Conservatives always claim the ultimate victim hood.
    Miller hates secular, liberal Jews in America and Israel, but he’s the fucking victim.
    I heard Rush Limbaugh excoriating Kamala Harris for not really being black, or African, etc. the other week.
    No, he’s the victim. In fact, he will strip Harris of her melanin and claim it for himself and his majority white conservative victimhood.
    Conservatives* take everything from their victims for themselves, including the latter’s well-earned multi-generational victimhood.
    Gimme that, that’s mine too.
    Miller and Limbaugh are correct.
    They will be victims.
    For what they chose to be.

  264. Here’s how conservatism works.
    When Stephen Miller is executed for his crimes, the conservative white Christian movement will credit his demise to liberal, Democratic Party anti-Semitism, not his malignant white nationalist conservatism.
    Conservatives always claim the ultimate victim hood.
    Miller hates secular, liberal Jews in America and Israel, but he’s the fucking victim.
    I heard Rush Limbaugh excoriating Kamala Harris for not really being black, or African, etc. the other week.
    No, he’s the victim. In fact, he will strip Harris of her melanin and claim it for himself and his majority white conservative victimhood.
    Conservatives* take everything from their victims for themselves, including the latter’s well-earned multi-generational victimhood.
    Gimme that, that’s mine too.
    Miller and Limbaugh are correct.
    They will be victims.
    For what they chose to be.

  267. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FOD1jZr-S4
    It was the most prophetic, cautionary movie of the late 20th Century.
    A literate warning label.
    But conservatives corporations, as they do with warning labels for industrial poisons, reworded the label to tell us it was good for us, and used it as an instructional manual, a blueprint, for killing America.

  268. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FOD1jZr-S4
    It was the most prophetic, cautionary movie of the late 20th Century.
    A literate warning label.
    But conservatives corporations, as they do with warning labels for industrial poisons, reworded the label to tell us it was good for us, and used it as an instructional manual, a blueprint, for killing America.

  269. What demographic die off?
    Look at pictures from a Trump rally. Pretty much any Trump rally. How many 20 year olds do you see, vs how many folks with grey hair? Contrast that with events for pretty much any of the would-be Democratic candidates.
    It’s not that there are NO young reactionaries, just as there are some ancient liberals. But it’s pretty clear how things are going. And even advances in geriatric medicine won’t stall it forever.

  270. What demographic die off?
    Look at pictures from a Trump rally. Pretty much any Trump rally. How many 20 year olds do you see, vs how many folks with grey hair? Contrast that with events for pretty much any of the would-be Democratic candidates.
    It’s not that there are NO young reactionaries, just as there are some ancient liberals. But it’s pretty clear how things are going. And even advances in geriatric medicine won’t stall it forever.

  271. Yes, the banking system creates money more or less out of thin air.
    I create an account at 1st National and put $100 cash in it, which they put in the vault.
    Marty goes to 1st National to borrow some money. They can lend him a big chunk of that $100, say $95, by simply creating an account for him with $95 in it. So it looks like they have my $100 and his $95, but Marty didn’t borrow the money to leave in his checking account, so he takes it out and spends it on whatever he intended to buy all along.
    The bank started with $100 in assets, my C-note, and $100 in liabilities – its obligation to me. It now has the same liability, but its assets consist of $5 cash and the loan to Marty. For a brief moment it had $195 in assets, the cash plus the loan, and the same in liabilities – the two deposits – but that didn’t last. Mysteriously, $95 has appeared in the economy.
    It has to keep the $5 because there is some chance I will turn up and demand my $100 – there’s a reason it’s called a demand deposit. Of course they’re screwed anyway if I do, but of course there’s lots of depositers, and it’s a good bet that no more than a small percentage will show up any given day.
    Move on to bank runs, deposit insurance – socialism!!! – etc.

  272. Yes, the banking system creates money more or less out of thin air.
    I create an account at 1st National and put $100 cash in it, which they put in the vault.
    Marty goes to 1st National to borrow some money. They can lend him a big chunk of that $100, say $95, by simply creating an account for him with $95 in it. So it looks like they have my $100 and his $95, but Marty didn’t borrow the money to leave in his checking account, so he takes it out and spends it on whatever he intended to buy all along.
    The bank started with $100 in assets, my C-note, and $100 in liabilities – its obligation to me. It now has the same liability, but its assets consist of $5 cash and the loan to Marty. For a brief moment it had $195 in assets, the cash plus the loan, and the same in liabilities – the two deposits – but that didn’t last. Mysteriously, $95 has appeared in the economy.
    It has to keep the $5 because there is some chance I will turn up and demand my $100 – there’s a reason it’s called a demand deposit. Of course they’re screwed anyway if I do, but of course there’s lots of depositers, and it’s a good bet that no more than a small percentage will show up any given day.
    Move on to bank runs, deposit insurance – socialism!!! – etc.

  273. But Marty has whatever he bought . . . and a $95 liability, in the form of that loan. He has, if you will, made money disappear. So net in the economy: $0.
    You can’t just look at the bank’s assets liabilities. You have to look at them for everybody in the economy.

  274. But Marty has whatever he bought . . . and a $95 liability, in the form of that loan. He has, if you will, made money disappear. So net in the economy: $0.
    You can’t just look at the bank’s assets liabilities. You have to look at them for everybody in the economy.

  275. What demographic die off?
    I remember the sitcom “All In The Family” and hearing all the talk about the forthcoming inevitable die-off of the Archie Bunkers of the world.
    But somehow, we became him. All that “New Age” and “New Left” stuff? Nah.

  276. What demographic die off?
    I remember the sitcom “All In The Family” and hearing all the talk about the forthcoming inevitable die-off of the Archie Bunkers of the world.
    But somehow, we became him. All that “New Age” and “New Left” stuff? Nah.

  277. But Marty got a tax cut, so he’s up 50 cents, and the next time we have a run on the financial system, the federal experts on what goes where and to whom have to be tracked via a phone booth down a path from an unmarked building on the edge of the high prairie with tumbleweed piled up on its windward side.

  278. But Marty got a tax cut, so he’s up 50 cents, and the next time we have a run on the financial system, the federal experts on what goes where and to whom have to be tracked via a phone booth down a path from an unmarked building on the edge of the high prairie with tumbleweed piled up on its windward side.

  279. Suppose Marty paid the $95 to Bernie for a half hour of consultation on photography. (Cheap at twice the price.) Bernie then deposits it in his account at 1st National. The bank now has assets of $100 cash plus Marty’s $95 note, balanced against its $195 liability to Bernie. If Marty is good for the money, the bank is exactly as solvent as it was at the get-go. If not, not.
    If you’re a banker, you might say the bank’s balance sheet has expanded by $195. If you’re an economist, you might say that $95 of GDP was created thanks to fractional reserve banking. If you’re a Republican, you’ll give the banker a tax cut and be done with it, because that’s what money is for.
    –TP

  280. Suppose Marty paid the $95 to Bernie for a half hour of consultation on photography. (Cheap at twice the price.) Bernie then deposits it in his account at 1st National. The bank now has assets of $100 cash plus Marty’s $95 note, balanced against its $195 liability to Bernie. If Marty is good for the money, the bank is exactly as solvent as it was at the get-go. If not, not.
    If you’re a banker, you might say the bank’s balance sheet has expanded by $195. If you’re an economist, you might say that $95 of GDP was created thanks to fractional reserve banking. If you’re a Republican, you’ll give the banker a tax cut and be done with it, because that’s what money is for.
    –TP

  281. Yeah, Meathead wears a MAGA hat now, having lost two careers, his university pension, and his kids addicted to opioids, plus Archie’s old union down at the loading dock now outsourced to cheap foreign labor.
    Actually Rob Reiner and Carroll O’Conner were both politically liberal in their personal lives, so by my count we’re down one liberal.
    If you throw in George Jefferson, the TV character, he’d be declaring his freedom to be belligerent by going full-on MAGA, and casting a suspicious arch-eyebrow Soros-ward.
    And don’t ask if Sammy Davis Jr takes cream and sugar in his eye, whatevah you do, Edit.

  282. Yeah, Meathead wears a MAGA hat now, having lost two careers, his university pension, and his kids addicted to opioids, plus Archie’s old union down at the loading dock now outsourced to cheap foreign labor.
    Actually Rob Reiner and Carroll O’Conner were both politically liberal in their personal lives, so by my count we’re down one liberal.
    If you throw in George Jefferson, the TV character, he’d be declaring his freedom to be belligerent by going full-on MAGA, and casting a suspicious arch-eyebrow Soros-ward.
    And don’t ask if Sammy Davis Jr takes cream and sugar in his eye, whatevah you do, Edit.

  285. But Marty has whatever he bought . . . and a $95 liability, in the form of that loan. He has, if you will, made money disappear. So net in the economy: $0.
    You can’t just look at the bank’s assets liabilities. You have to look at them for everybody in the economy.
    Well, presumably whatever he bought is worth $95, or he got $95 worth of pleasure out of consuming it. And the seller has the $95.

  286. But Marty has whatever he bought . . . and a $95 liability, in the form of that loan. He has, if you will, made money disappear. So net in the economy: $0.
    You can’t just look at the bank’s assets liabilities. You have to look at them for everybody in the economy.
    Well, presumably whatever he bought is worth $95, or he got $95 worth of pleasure out of consuming it. And the seller has the $95.

  287. “It’s not that there are NO young reactionaries, just as there are some ancient liberals. But it’s pretty clear how things are going. And even advances in geriatric medicine won’t stall it forever.”
    This was true when I was 18, yet here we are. The average age of the McGovern voter was pretty young, I bet Carter too. The youngsters loved Clinton.

  288. “It’s not that there are NO young reactionaries, just as there are some ancient liberals. But it’s pretty clear how things are going. And even advances in geriatric medicine won’t stall it forever.”
    This was true when I was 18, yet here we are. The average age of the McGovern voter was pretty young, I bet Carter too. The youngsters loved Clinton.

  289. This [the old reactionary voters will die off] was true when I was 18, yet here we are.
    Indeed. I have heard, “the current tranche of oldsters will die off and the next tranche of oldsters will vote like they did when they were 20-somethings” for as long as I can remember. Hasn’t happened. In round numbers, nearly two generations have passed and… It. Hasn’t. Happened.
    There has finally been a bunch of political analysis showing up about Arizona and Georgia and Texas that says “If you win the suburbs you win the state!” I’ve lived in Colorado for 30 years now and can say exactly why the state has turned blue enough it’s not even considered a battleground state any more: the Republicans went crazy and lost the suburbs.
    Not to put too fine a point on it, but for my particular policy concerns, the Democrats need to kick the hardcore urbanists out of the party and find a bunch of people who look at the problems in terms of how efficient can suburbs become?

  290. This [the old reactionary voters will die off] was true when I was 18, yet here we are.
    Indeed. I have heard, “the current tranche of oldsters will die off and the next tranche of oldsters will vote like they did when they were 20-somethings” for as long as I can remember. Hasn’t happened. In round numbers, nearly two generations have passed and… It. Hasn’t. Happened.
    There has finally been a bunch of political analysis showing up about Arizona and Georgia and Texas that says “If you win the suburbs you win the state!” I’ve lived in Colorado for 30 years now and can say exactly why the state has turned blue enough it’s not even considered a battleground state any more: the Republicans went crazy and lost the suburbs.
    Not to put too fine a point on it, but for my particular policy concerns, the Democrats need to kick the hardcore urbanists out of the party and find a bunch of people who look at the problems in terms of how efficient can suburbs become?

  293. I have heard, “the current tranche of oldsters will die off and the next tranche of oldsters will vote like they did when they were 20-somethings” for as long as I can remember. Hasn’t happened. In round numbers, nearly two generations have passed and… It. Hasn’t. Happened.
    Hasn’t it? Certainly those oldstets are on the conservative side by today’s standards. But by the standards of their youth? Many of them (not all, certainly, but many) hold many of the views that they did then. They haven’t gotten more conservative; society has gotten more liberal.
    Don’t believe it? Consider this. One of the commons appellations for President Reagan, from liberals (fairly extreme liberals even) was “Ronnie b*ttf*ck.” Yup, for a liberal to imply that an opponent was a homosexual was not considered even a little untoward at the time. Anybody know a liberal today who would publicly do that? Even an extremely conservative politician would be cautious about saying it too publicly.
    Society has moved, to the point that a homosexual running for President isn’t seen as insane. He may not get the nomination, but nobody argues he isn’t a serious candidate. (More serious than a dozen of the others still claiming to be in the contest.)
    In my youth, the Supreme Court had a (single) “Jewish seat” and, less explicitly, a Catholic seat. Otherwise, Supreme Court Justices were routinely Protestants. Today, there is only one (1) Protestant Justice; in 2015 there were none. The Court is wall-to-wall Catholics and Jews. And nobody raises an eyebrow. Even Trump doesn’t find it worthwhile to rant to his base about it.
    The list could go on and on. I recall serious concerns being raised about JFK, just because he was Catholic. A Muslim candidate today might face something like that in some circles. But a Catholic?
    Things change so much that we even lose track of how much. Or that once we, and people like us, held quite different views than what is considered normal today.

  294. I have heard, “the current tranche of oldsters will die off and the next tranche of oldsters will vote like they did when they were 20-somethings” for as long as I can remember. Hasn’t happened. In round numbers, nearly two generations have passed and… It. Hasn’t. Happened.
    Hasn’t it? Certainly those oldstets are on the conservative side by today’s standards. But by the standards of their youth? Many of them (not all, certainly, but many) hold many of the views that they did then. They haven’t gotten more conservative; society has gotten more liberal.
    Don’t believe it? Consider this. One of the commons appellations for President Reagan, from liberals (fairly extreme liberals even) was “Ronnie b*ttf*ck.” Yup, for a liberal to imply that an opponent was a homosexual was not considered even a little untoward at the time. Anybody know a liberal today who would publicly do that? Even an extremely conservative politician would be cautious about saying it too publicly.
    Society has moved, to the point that a homosexual running for President isn’t seen as insane. He may not get the nomination, but nobody argues he isn’t a serious candidate. (More serious than a dozen of the others still claiming to be in the contest.)
    In my youth, the Supreme Court had a (single) “Jewish seat” and, less explicitly, a Catholic seat. Otherwise, Supreme Court Justices were routinely Protestants. Today, there is only one (1) Protestant Justice; in 2015 there were none. The Court is wall-to-wall Catholics and Jews. And nobody raises an eyebrow. Even Trump doesn’t find it worthwhile to rant to his base about it.
    The list could go on and on. I recall serious concerns being raised about JFK, just because he was Catholic. A Muslim candidate today might face something like that in some circles. But a Catholic?
    Things change so much that we even lose track of how much. Or that once we, and people like us, held quite different views than what is considered normal today.

  301. People have become much more liberal on social issues, but arguably more conservative on economic issues, after literally decades of propaganda about how inefficient government always is compared to the private sector.
    On racial and religious and ethic prejudice it’s been two steps forward and a pretty gigantic step backwards, especially with Trump. But the anti- Muslim stuff started slowly taking off after 9-11. Dubya was actually sort of half decent on this in a very limited way— I mean the man might be a war criminal but he didn’t want people thinking Muslims in genera were evil. But there was a backlash against the “ Islam is a religion of peace” meme and not all of it came from conservatives. I remember Martin Amis saying some nasty Islamophobic things and IIRC the NYT Sunday magazine had a sympathetic piece ( to Amis) on the controversy. Bill Maher, who sometimes is seen as a liberal by people with very low standards, was a Muslim basher.
    Islamophobia started to become a more obviously partisan issue when Barack Hussein Obama became President and some conservatives started saying he was a sekrit Muslim. McCain famously came to his defense, but in a way that inadvertently gave the impression that being a Muslim might be bad. The concern over immigration, as always, had a racist tinge apart from whatever else one might say.
    Then Trump came along and all the suppressed nastiness came out in full force.

  302. People have become much more liberal on social issues, but arguably more conservative on economic issues, after literally decades of propaganda about how inefficient government always is compared to the private sector.
    On racial and religious and ethic prejudice it’s been two steps forward and a pretty gigantic step backwards, especially with Trump. But the anti- Muslim stuff started slowly taking off after 9-11. Dubya was actually sort of half decent on this in a very limited way— I mean the man might be a war criminal but he didn’t want people thinking Muslims in genera were evil. But there was a backlash against the “ Islam is a religion of peace” meme and not all of it came from conservatives. I remember Martin Amis saying some nasty Islamophobic things and IIRC the NYT Sunday magazine had a sympathetic piece ( to Amis) on the controversy. Bill Maher, who sometimes is seen as a liberal by people with very low standards, was a Muslim basher.
    Islamophobia started to become a more obviously partisan issue when Barack Hussein Obama became President and some conservatives started saying he was a sekrit Muslim. McCain famously came to his defense, but in a way that inadvertently gave the impression that being a Muslim might be bad. The concern over immigration, as always, had a racist tinge apart from whatever else one might say.
    Then Trump came along and all the suppressed nastiness came out in full force.

  305. On racial and religious and ethic prejudice it’s been two steps forward and a pretty gigantic step backwards, especially with Trump.
    Overall, I’d say that it’s been more like a half dozen steps forward, often followed by a big step (amounting to perhaps two, or sometimes three, of the others) backwards. The size of the step backwards tends to obscure the overall trend.
    Trump has been exceptional in that he has contrived 4-5 steps worth of backward. Not enough to negate recent, let alone long term, progress. But certainly enough to be both concerning and irritating.
    However, my belief is that he represents an anomaly born of a conflation of special circumstances. Had he lost (not to mention failed to get the nomination, which in most circumstances he would have), the damage he did would have been in the 1-2 steps backwards range. As it is, we will be a decade or so recovering as a society** from his tenure.
    ** The damage to the government, to our foreign relations, and to the planet will be harded to recover from. To the extent that they can be.

  306. On racial and religious and ethic prejudice it’s been two steps forward and a pretty gigantic step backwards, especially with Trump.
    Overall, I’d say that it’s been more like a half dozen steps forward, often followed by a big step (amounting to perhaps two, or sometimes three, of the others) backwards. The size of the step backwards tends to obscure the overall trend.
    Trump has been exceptional in that he has contrived 4-5 steps worth of backward. Not enough to negate recent, let alone long term, progress. But certainly enough to be both concerning and irritating.
    However, my belief is that he represents an anomaly born of a conflation of special circumstances. Had he lost (not to mention failed to get the nomination, which in most circumstances he would have), the damage he did would have been in the 1-2 steps backwards range. As it is, we will be a decade or so recovering as a society** from his tenure.
    ** The damage to the government, to our foreign relations, and to the planet will be harded to recover from. To the extent that they can be.

  307. ….and find a bunch of people who look at the problems in terms of how efficient can suburbs become?
    Perhaps suburbs are inherently inefficient to begin with?
    Perhaps they are – but that doesn’t mean they can’t be ameliorated, and they are not going away.
    And Michael is right about it being a key electoral battleground. Even the Republicans are starting to wake up to that.

  308. ….and find a bunch of people who look at the problems in terms of how efficient can suburbs become?
    Perhaps suburbs are inherently inefficient to begin with?
    Perhaps they are – but that doesn’t mean they can’t be ameliorated, and they are not going away.
    And Michael is right about it being a key electoral battleground. Even the Republicans are starting to wake up to that.

  315. In the request, Tyson Fresh Meats proposes using its own employees, rather than independent Department of Agriculture inspectors, to take a first look at the meat being prepared at its factory in Holcomb, Kansas.
    Look how well that worked for Boeing.

  316. In the request, Tyson Fresh Meats proposes using its own employees, rather than independent Department of Agriculture inspectors, to take a first look at the meat being prepared at its factory in Holcomb, Kansas.
    Look how well that worked for Boeing.

  317. Diana, you can’t be serious.
    https://www.mediamatters.org/pbs/white-supremacist-pat-buchanan-will-co-star-public-televisions-relaunched-mclaughlin-group
    I demand that both sides be represented to maintain fairness.
    I want Lorraine Hobbs to shoot white supremacist and racist Pat Buchanan in his conservative fucking head on the first rebooted Mclaughlin Group show.
    On next week’s show, Sybil the Soothsayer will oraculate on the possibility of slaughtering and butchering every conservative and republican on the planet and providing warnings on the packaging to severely overcook the meat to avoid uninspected offal and prion disease.

  318. Diana, you can’t be serious.
    https://www.mediamatters.org/pbs/white-supremacist-pat-buchanan-will-co-star-public-televisions-relaunched-mclaughlin-group
    I demand that both sides be represented to maintain fairness.
    I want Lorraine Hobbs to shoot white supremacist and racist Pat Buchanan in his conservative fucking head on the first rebooted Mclaughlin Group show.
    On next week’s show, Sybil the Soothsayer will oraculate on the possibility of slaughtering and butchering every conservative and republican on the planet and providing warnings on the packaging to severely overcook the meat to avoid uninspected offal and prion disease.

  321. This is typical Dreher:
    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/the-great-out-doors-pattie-gonia/
    Next thing you know, Liberace will be skeet-shooting, RuPaul will be cage fighting, and Elton John will be rock climbing.
    The queering of the woods, it sez.
    As it happens, I’ll be backpacking and camping in the Never Summer Range in Northern Colorado in two weeks and if I run into that guy on the trail, I’ll tell him Dreher is spreading the news.
    I read Dreher to receive the latest on this type of stuff because he’s on it faster than Jenna Jameson can hype her new Keto diet.
    When Bolsonaro of Brazil, who will be assassinated, tweeted during his fascist campaign for President that a couple of gay dudes were rogering each other on a balcony overlooking a street during Brazil festival, Dreher picked that up pronto and publicized it.
    Who needs internet porn when Dreher delectates over every sex act between consenting adults?
    I think more impressionable undecided men decided on the basis of Dreher’s jones-on to give the lifestyle a try than dropped to their knees in prayer.
    I simply wouldn’t be looking for this stuff on my own, so I’m glad Dreher waves it around in my face so I can take notice.
    His commentariat goes into full circle jerk high dudgeon P.T. Barnum paroxyms of joy over this stuff.
    Bolsonaro doesn’t fuck men. He murders them.
    Which is why Dreher would be forced to vote for Bolsonaro if he was a Brazilian citizen. See how it works?
    Dreher has a kink.
    I’m doing a ten-mile hike to a waterfall west of Denver today.
    Hope to see some endangered species before they disappear.
    Dreher tells me that as a white male heterosexual I’m on the hit list.
    He’s got books to sell.

  322. This is typical Dreher:
    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/the-great-out-doors-pattie-gonia/
    Next thing you know, Liberace will be skeet-shooting, RuPaul will be cage fighting, and Elton John will be rock climbing.
    The queering of the woods, it sez.
    As it happens, I’ll be backpacking and camping in the Never Summer Range in Northern Colorado in two weeks and if I run into that guy on the trail, I’ll tell him Dreher is spreading the news.
    I read Dreher to receive the latest on this type of stuff because he’s on it faster than Jenna Jameson can hype her new Keto diet.
    When Bolsonaro of Brazil, who will be assassinated, tweeted during his fascist campaign for President that a couple of gay dudes were rogering each other on a balcony overlooking a street during Brazil festival, Dreher picked that up pronto and publicized it.
    Who needs internet porn when Dreher delectates over every sex act between consenting adults?
    I think more impressionable undecided men decided on the basis of Dreher’s jones-on to give the lifestyle a try than dropped to their knees in prayer.
    I simply wouldn’t be looking for this stuff on my own, so I’m glad Dreher waves it around in my face so I can take notice.
    His commentariat goes into full circle jerk high dudgeon P.T. Barnum paroxyms of joy over this stuff.
    Bolsonaro doesn’t fuck men. He murders them.
    Which is why Dreher would be forced to vote for Bolsonaro if he was a Brazilian citizen. See how it works?
    Dreher has a kink.
    I’m doing a ten-mile hike to a waterfall west of Denver today.
    Hope to see some endangered species before they disappear.
    Dreher tells me that as a white male heterosexual I’m on the hit list.
    He’s got books to sell.

  323. Dreher tells me that as a white male heterosexual I’m on the hit list.
    Does that mean your next book/record will be a hit?
    Or just that you will go 3 for 3 at the plate in your next game?
    Either way, congratulations!

  324. Dreher tells me that as a white male heterosexual I’m on the hit list.
    Does that mean your next book/record will be a hit?
    Or just that you will go 3 for 3 at the plate in your next game?
    Either way, congratulations!

  327. to take offense at the ‘queering of the woods’ somewhat begs the question that the woods are actually the exclusive domain of the heterosexual human male.
    for that matter, Dreher’s entire oeuvre begs that same question.

  328. to take offense at the ‘queering of the woods’ somewhat begs the question that the woods are actually the exclusive domain of the heterosexual human male.
    for that matter, Dreher’s entire oeuvre begs that same question.

  329. Heterosexual and male are two of the defaults when discussing humans, cleek. Using them as modifiers is redundant.

  330. Heterosexual and male are two of the defaults when discussing humans, cleek. Using them as modifiers is redundant.

  335. I’ve just got back from being in the North Country for 3 days, and without broadband, so I’m having to catch up quickly and without reading many links. But I just wanted to point out, on the Martin Amis stuff, that he and Christopher Hitchens were famously best friends, and although in some ways they could amplify the best and cleverest in each other, I think this issue was an example of how they could sometimes amplify the worst in their own private echo chamber (in which Ian McEwan, quoted in the piece, was also a participant). Also, I think both enjoyed the opportunity to epater la bourgeoisie (or the soi-disant liberal right-on, anyway).

  336. I’ve just got back from being in the North Country for 3 days, and without broadband, so I’m having to catch up quickly and without reading many links. But I just wanted to point out, on the Martin Amis stuff, that he and Christopher Hitchens were famously best friends, and although in some ways they could amplify the best and cleverest in each other, I think this issue was an example of how they could sometimes amplify the worst in their own private echo chamber (in which Ian McEwan, quoted in the piece, was also a participant). Also, I think both enjoyed the opportunity to epater la bourgeoisie (or the soi-disant liberal right-on, anyway).

  337. I don’t read American Conservative. Looking at the Dreher link above reinforces my opinion that this behavior is utterly sane, rational, and eminently justifiable. If this is any indication, the rag is pure unadulterated crap. Catch a load of this quote:
    The Sasquatches are running scared.
    Har. Har. Har. This is juvenile assholery. It has no place in a discussion conducted as between actual grown up human beings. It is projection on a grand scale.
    Dreher’s writings should not be read. They should be spat upon.
    He needs to be laughed out of the public square.
    As for this rag’s isolationist view on American foreign policy…well, recall Bobby Taft was all for isolationism, too. Bobby Taft was an asshole.
    The Donalds of this world* need to be very wary when they read crap spouted by these fascist thugs. They may be espousing some particular position you may agree with, but rest assured they are doing it for all the wrong reasons.
    *our donald is a good guy, whom I generally agree with-mostly because he sets sapient off 🙂

  338. I don’t read American Conservative. Looking at the Dreher link above reinforces my opinion that this behavior is utterly sane, rational, and eminently justifiable. If this is any indication, the rag is pure unadulterated crap. Catch a load of this quote:
    The Sasquatches are running scared.
    Har. Har. Har. This is juvenile assholery. It has no place in a discussion conducted as between actual grown up human beings. It is projection on a grand scale.
    Dreher’s writings should not be read. They should be spat upon.
    He needs to be laughed out of the public square.
    As for this rag’s isolationist view on American foreign policy…well, recall Bobby Taft was all for isolationism, too. Bobby Taft was an asshole.
    The Donalds of this world* need to be very wary when they read crap spouted by these fascist thugs. They may be espousing some particular position you may agree with, but rest assured they are doing it for all the wrong reasons.
    *our donald is a good guy, whom I generally agree with-mostly because he sets sapient off 🙂

  339. “The Donalds of this world* need to be very wary when they read crap spouted by these fascist thugs. They may be espousing some particular position you may agree with, but rest assured they are doing it for all the wrong reasons.”
    I don’t agree with you with respect to Larison. I’ve been reading him for several years and the moral outrage he expresses about the cruelty of American foreign policy is as real as anything I have ever read by any lefty. He also bashed Trump for his treatment of Puerto Rico— I doubt you’d find Pat Buchanan giving a crap about that.
    Larison wrote more than one piece about Puerto Rico, but here is one—
    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/trumps-pathetic-denial-of-puerto-ricos-massive-loss-of-life/
    People don’t all fall into neat little ideological boxes. Some of the writers at TAC defend Trump. Dreher is disgusted by him while constructing arguments for voting for him in 2020. I have never read a single post by Larison that was favorable to Trump— most were as contemptuous as the one above.
    Um, as for setting sapient off, sapient and I have rather strong disagreements on some issues, but I think it is safe to say neither of us took much pleasure in the fights we’ve had.

  340. “The Donalds of this world* need to be very wary when they read crap spouted by these fascist thugs. They may be espousing some particular position you may agree with, but rest assured they are doing it for all the wrong reasons.”
    I don’t agree with you with respect to Larison. I’ve been reading him for several years and the moral outrage he expresses about the cruelty of American foreign policy is as real as anything I have ever read by any lefty. He also bashed Trump for his treatment of Puerto Rico— I doubt you’d find Pat Buchanan giving a crap about that.
    Larison wrote more than one piece about Puerto Rico, but here is one—
    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/trumps-pathetic-denial-of-puerto-ricos-massive-loss-of-life/
    People don’t all fall into neat little ideological boxes. Some of the writers at TAC defend Trump. Dreher is disgusted by him while constructing arguments for voting for him in 2020. I have never read a single post by Larison that was favorable to Trump— most were as contemptuous as the one above.
    Um, as for setting sapient off, sapient and I have rather strong disagreements on some issues, but I think it is safe to say neither of us took much pleasure in the fights we’ve had.

  341. Facial recognition technology is all the rage. But there are serious doubts about whether it is ready for prime time. There is a bill pending in the Califirnia legislature to ban use of the technology with police body cams. At least until its reliability improves.
    How unreliable is it?

    A picture of every California state legislator was run through a facial-recognition program that matches facial images to a database of 25,000 criminal mugshots . . . .
    The program falsely flagged 26 legislators as criminal

    Well, at least that’s 26 likely votes for the bill.

  342. Facial recognition technology is all the rage. But there are serious doubts about whether it is ready for prime time. There is a bill pending in the Califirnia legislature to ban use of the technology with police body cams. At least until its reliability improves.
    How unreliable is it?

    A picture of every California state legislator was run through a facial-recognition program that matches facial images to a database of 25,000 criminal mugshots . . . .
    The program falsely flagged 26 legislators as criminal

    Well, at least that’s 26 likely votes for the bill.

  343. I don’t read American Conservative. Looking at the Dreher link above reinforces my opinion that this behavior is utterly sane, rational, and eminently justifiable
    Pretty much where I’m at.
    Larison is fine, but he isn’t telling me anything I can’t figure out without his help. The rest of them just seem barking mad, in one form or other.
    Honestly, I just don’t see that conservatives have brought anything useful to the table in 50 years.
    Heavy shit is going on. “Stand athwart” is not a useful strategy.
    Adapt or die. It’s the iron law of life, just ask Darwin.
    If folks want to get left in the dust, that is their prerogative. I just ask that they get out of everybody else’s way.

  344. I don’t read American Conservative. Looking at the Dreher link above reinforces my opinion that this behavior is utterly sane, rational, and eminently justifiable
    Pretty much where I’m at.
    Larison is fine, but he isn’t telling me anything I can’t figure out without his help. The rest of them just seem barking mad, in one form or other.
    Honestly, I just don’t see that conservatives have brought anything useful to the table in 50 years.
    Heavy shit is going on. “Stand athwart” is not a useful strategy.
    Adapt or die. It’s the iron law of life, just ask Darwin.
    If folks want to get left in the dust, that is their prerogative. I just ask that they get out of everybody else’s way.

  345. On a possibly related topic, when are people going to figure out that (R)’s plus economic policy equals recession.
    Reliably. For my entire adult life, and while I’m not old-old, I’m old.

  346. On a possibly related topic, when are people going to figure out that (R)’s plus economic policy equals recession.
    Reliably. For my entire adult life, and while I’m not old-old, I’m old.

  347. Their economic policies are also a leading indicator for the worst stock market crashes and bear markets in history.
    They are the Genghis Khan’s of portfolio drubbings.
    Speaking of Genghis Khan:
    https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a28701130/steve-king-abortion-rape-incest-exception/
    McKinney unwittingly started a meme, and that started the whole world crying.
    Never play a game Limbo with a conservative republican (not McKinney). No matter how low the bar gets set, they get under with room to spare.
    I don’t why a conservative woman hasn’t shot King
    in his rapey face.

  348. Their economic policies are also a leading indicator for the worst stock market crashes and bear markets in history.
    They are the Genghis Khan’s of portfolio drubbings.
    Speaking of Genghis Khan:
    https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a28701130/steve-king-abortion-rape-incest-exception/
    McKinney unwittingly started a meme, and that started the whole world crying.
    Never play a game Limbo with a conservative republican (not McKinney). No matter how low the bar gets set, they get under with room to spare.
    I don’t why a conservative woman hasn’t shot King
    in his rapey face.

  349. Appreciate the reply, Donald. But again, I stress, folks like Larison may espouse positions that may align with yours, but I am quite suspicious of their, for lack of a better term, “motivational world view”.
    Larison may be a prime example.
    Also, isolationism as foreign policy has a well known history in this country. So the question is, from whence does such an analysis arise in conservative circles? When you consider what they believe with respect to the real of private power, I offer you will begin to see some commonalities.
    Thanks.

  350. Appreciate the reply, Donald. But again, I stress, folks like Larison may espouse positions that may align with yours, but I am quite suspicious of their, for lack of a better term, “motivational world view”.
    Larison may be a prime example.
    Also, isolationism as foreign policy has a well known history in this country. So the question is, from whence does such an analysis arise in conservative circles? When you consider what they believe with respect to the real of private power, I offer you will begin to see some commonalities.
    Thanks.

  355. Yes, I know what Larison was writing about the Confederacy about ten years ago— he denounces slavery as a repugnant institution but has a romanticized and wrong view of how the Confederate soldiers were fighting for the principle of secession. He rejects war as a solution to slavery.
    I think he is genuine in his revulsion against war but in this case wrong wrong and this is an example where his anti- interventionist principles combined with what was presumably his upbringing have led him to say and believe stupid things. And no, this doesn’t mean that Larison is really a surreptitious neofascist who has been faking his humanitarian outrage for the past several years.
    This is what makes political discussions so irritating. People of good will can be dead wrong about some issues, even extremely important ones, but it doesn’t mean they are terrible people, lying about everything they say. If I thought that there might not be anybody on the left that I would read. I value Chomsky more than every mainstream liberal put together, but he has been spectacularly wrong at times and not just on the standard issues people bring up. At one time, because of Chomsky and Orwell, I had a romantic view of the Spanish anarchists. It turns out that in the opening months of the Spanish Civil War they slaughtered thousands of priests and nuns. Of course the Catholic Church as an institution was on the fascist side, but still, that took the shine off my feelings about the Spanish anarchists. People on the far left have a history of this. They might be very good on many issues, fighting for human rights at home and abroad and yet you often find them defending groups with horrific human rights records. This is why I wasn’t that upset with MkT’s attacks recently. Liberals think this only applies to far left extremists, but liberals have their own blindspots when it comes to atrocities, tending only to notice American ones when a convenient Republican can be blamed and sometimes not even then. That doesn’t mean they should be distrusted on everything they say.
    Larison says he is a Christian and I believe him. Nowadays that often doesn’t mean much, but I have read him for several years and it is impossible for me to think he is faking his outrage about Trump’s horrible policies in Puerto Rico and other places. Note that he is saying that the federal government should have done more to save its citizens there and then tell me how that fits into whatever demon portrait you want to paint. A few weeks ago he defended Ilhan Omar against Trump’s racism— fine, Dreher did that much— and then he went further and defended her from her own party. I will post the link in a minute. The point is that actually defending Omar and not just attacking Trump’s racism put him in a different category from everyone else at TAC. That happens a lot with him.
    It boils down to this. I can’t prove he hasn’t been lying about his humanitarian outage for the several years I have been reading him, but I find it much more convincing than your assurance to me that it is all a big fake.

  356. Yes, I know what Larison was writing about the Confederacy about ten years ago— he denounces slavery as a repugnant institution but has a romanticized and wrong view of how the Confederate soldiers were fighting for the principle of secession. He rejects war as a solution to slavery.
    I think he is genuine in his revulsion against war but in this case wrong wrong and this is an example where his anti- interventionist principles combined with what was presumably his upbringing have led him to say and believe stupid things. And no, this doesn’t mean that Larison is really a surreptitious neofascist who has been faking his humanitarian outrage for the past several years.
    This is what makes political discussions so irritating. People of good will can be dead wrong about some issues, even extremely important ones, but it doesn’t mean they are terrible people, lying about everything they say. If I thought that there might not be anybody on the left that I would read. I value Chomsky more than every mainstream liberal put together, but he has been spectacularly wrong at times and not just on the standard issues people bring up. At one time, because of Chomsky and Orwell, I had a romantic view of the Spanish anarchists. It turns out that in the opening months of the Spanish Civil War they slaughtered thousands of priests and nuns. Of course the Catholic Church as an institution was on the fascist side, but still, that took the shine off my feelings about the Spanish anarchists. People on the far left have a history of this. They might be very good on many issues, fighting for human rights at home and abroad and yet you often find them defending groups with horrific human rights records. This is why I wasn’t that upset with MkT’s attacks recently. Liberals think this only applies to far left extremists, but liberals have their own blindspots when it comes to atrocities, tending only to notice American ones when a convenient Republican can be blamed and sometimes not even then. That doesn’t mean they should be distrusted on everything they say.
    Larison says he is a Christian and I believe him. Nowadays that often doesn’t mean much, but I have read him for several years and it is impossible for me to think he is faking his outrage about Trump’s horrible policies in Puerto Rico and other places. Note that he is saying that the federal government should have done more to save its citizens there and then tell me how that fits into whatever demon portrait you want to paint. A few weeks ago he defended Ilhan Omar against Trump’s racism— fine, Dreher did that much— and then he went further and defended her from her own party. I will post the link in a minute. The point is that actually defending Omar and not just attacking Trump’s racism put him in a different category from everyone else at TAC. That happens a lot with him.
    It boils down to this. I can’t prove he hasn’t been lying about his humanitarian outage for the several years I have been reading him, but I find it much more convincing than your assurance to me that it is all a big fake.

  359. People of good will can be dead wrong about some issues, even extremely important ones, but it doesn’t mean they are terrible people, lying about everything they say.
    That’s true. But the issues they are “dead wrong” about can be enormously consequential, to the point where their good will, however sincere, doesn’t really help much.
    If a not-terrible person does terrible things, how does that mitigate the consequences of the terrible things? And, are we obliged to give them a pass – are we obliged to not make judgements about their actions – because they’re well-meaning in other contexts?
    I’m not specifically talking about Larison here, I’m not sure he’s done anything particularly terrible. I’m asking how we can discuss the realities of political behavior – how we can *make judgements about* the realities of political behavior – if we are also obliged to account for people’s good intentions.
    If your point is that we don’t have to demonize people to make critical judgements about their words or deeds, I don’t disagree. But, to use Larison as an example, publicly stated nostalgia for the “good old Southland” – for the Confederacy – is not a harmless point of view, and I’m not sure that his anger at the harm done to modern day Puerto Ricans wipes that off of the ledger.
    People can be lovely in some contexts and utter beasts in others. When we talk about politics, we are inherently talking about the public sphere – what people actually *do*, including their public statements, and how that affects others. Their good intentions are worth noting, but I’m not sure they are, for lack of a better word, exculpatory. I’m not sure they mitigate, or the degree to which they mitigate, their public actions and statements.

  360. People of good will can be dead wrong about some issues, even extremely important ones, but it doesn’t mean they are terrible people, lying about everything they say.
    That’s true. But the issues they are “dead wrong” about can be enormously consequential, to the point where their good will, however sincere, doesn’t really help much.
    If a not-terrible person does terrible things, how does that mitigate the consequences of the terrible things? And, are we obliged to give them a pass – are we obliged to not make judgements about their actions – because they’re well-meaning in other contexts?
    I’m not specifically talking about Larison here, I’m not sure he’s done anything particularly terrible. I’m asking how we can discuss the realities of political behavior – how we can *make judgements about* the realities of political behavior – if we are also obliged to account for people’s good intentions.
    If your point is that we don’t have to demonize people to make critical judgements about their words or deeds, I don’t disagree. But, to use Larison as an example, publicly stated nostalgia for the “good old Southland” – for the Confederacy – is not a harmless point of view, and I’m not sure that his anger at the harm done to modern day Puerto Ricans wipes that off of the ledger.
    People can be lovely in some contexts and utter beasts in others. When we talk about politics, we are inherently talking about the public sphere – what people actually *do*, including their public statements, and how that affects others. Their good intentions are worth noting, but I’m not sure they are, for lack of a better word, exculpatory. I’m not sure they mitigate, or the degree to which they mitigate, their public actions and statements.

  361. when are people going to figure out that (R)’s plus economic policy equals recession
    never.
    the GOP is a cult.

  362. when are people going to figure out that (R)’s plus economic policy equals recession
    never.
    the GOP is a cult.

  363. People of good will can be dead wrong about some issues, even extremely important ones, but it doesn’t mean they are terrible people, lying about everything they say.
    This is true, but you seem to be assuming that Larison is a person of good will.
    Whatever his views of Trump and Puerto Rico his decision to associate himself with the likes of Pat Buchanan and Taki Theodoracopulos calls that into serious question.

  364. People of good will can be dead wrong about some issues, even extremely important ones, but it doesn’t mean they are terrible people, lying about everything they say.
    This is true, but you seem to be assuming that Larison is a person of good will.
    Whatever his views of Trump and Puerto Rico his decision to associate himself with the likes of Pat Buchanan and Taki Theodoracopulos calls that into serious question.

  367. People of good will can be dead wrong about some issues, even extremely important ones, but it doesn’t mean they are terrible people, lying about everything they say.
    This is very true, important to keep in mind, and a perfect example of why you are a most valuable commenter, Donald. But I agree with russell, one must also judge people on their actions, or the foreseeable consequences of their (persuasive) speeches/arguments. And also, what hsh said.

  368. People of good will can be dead wrong about some issues, even extremely important ones, but it doesn’t mean they are terrible people, lying about everything they say.
    This is very true, important to keep in mind, and a perfect example of why you are a most valuable commenter, Donald. But I agree with russell, one must also judge people on their actions, or the foreseeable consequences of their (persuasive) speeches/arguments. And also, what hsh said.

  369. Hillary Clinton’s detailed familiarity with the small bones in the human neck and the ambiguity of diagnosing the causation leading to their fracture is simply diabolical.
    Those missing emails must read like chapters out of Agatha Christie.
    If Clinton had not passed away of advanced pulmonary pneumonia days prior to the 2016 election, she could be interviewed by William Barr about his Dad’s friend’s untimely end.

  370. Hillary Clinton’s detailed familiarity with the small bones in the human neck and the ambiguity of diagnosing the causation leading to their fracture is simply diabolical.
    Those missing emails must read like chapters out of Agatha Christie.
    If Clinton had not passed away of advanced pulmonary pneumonia days prior to the 2016 election, she could be interviewed by William Barr about his Dad’s friend’s untimely end.

  371. hard to believe the Great Trump is letting a criminal mastermind like HRC run around murdering people.
    maybe if he spent less time locking up chicken pluckers, he could get the real criminals.

  372. hard to believe the Great Trump is letting a criminal mastermind like HRC run around murdering people.
    maybe if he spent less time locking up chicken pluckers, he could get the real criminals.

  373. I had a romantic view of the Spanish anarchists. It turns out that in the opening months of the Spanish Civil War they slaughtered thousands of priests and nuns.
    Not exactly. About four thousand priests were killed in the Terror Rojo, probably few of them by actual anarchists. And something short of three hundred nuns. The priests were seen, for substantial reasons, as agents of the Fascist coup.
    I don’t mean to defend the killings. Every man’s death diminishes us.

  374. I had a romantic view of the Spanish anarchists. It turns out that in the opening months of the Spanish Civil War they slaughtered thousands of priests and nuns.
    Not exactly. About four thousand priests were killed in the Terror Rojo, probably few of them by actual anarchists. And something short of three hundred nuns. The priests were seen, for substantial reasons, as agents of the Fascist coup.
    I don’t mean to defend the killings. Every man’s death diminishes us.

  375. Regarding Dreher, he reminds me of the Association of German National Jews “forced” to support Hitler because if not for the Fuhrer, they’d be subjected to the depredations of Weimar lesbians, out-of-towners, and such like.
    “We have always held the well-being of the German people and the fatherland, to which we feel inextricably linked, above our own well-being. Thus we greeted the results of January, 1933, even though it has brought hardship for us personally.”
    The ashes of both Weimar lesbians and Jews intermingled and settled over Europe.
    I started reading The American Conservative after Slarti mentioned Larison. I like to mosey around behind enemy lines to see what they are up to and Redstate became boring after awhile.
    I haven’t found much on which to disagree with Larison, though I wasn’t aware of his sentimental attachment to the Confederacy, something I tolerate in Walker Percy (he’s coy about it) and other writers, but still, thank you for the Mint Julep, and now fuck off.
    Dreher is a hysterical freak (he’s the Jim Cramer of alleged Orthodox religious persecution in America), and a dangerous one to my mind, many times more so than any transsexual exhibitionist cavorting thru high-altitude wildflowers shod inappropriately, and I read him for the same reason he does does what he does, because I like a good train wreck.

  376. Regarding Dreher, he reminds me of the Association of German National Jews “forced” to support Hitler because if not for the Fuhrer, they’d be subjected to the depredations of Weimar lesbians, out-of-towners, and such like.
    “We have always held the well-being of the German people and the fatherland, to which we feel inextricably linked, above our own well-being. Thus we greeted the results of January, 1933, even though it has brought hardship for us personally.”
    The ashes of both Weimar lesbians and Jews intermingled and settled over Europe.
    I started reading The American Conservative after Slarti mentioned Larison. I like to mosey around behind enemy lines to see what they are up to and Redstate became boring after awhile.
    I haven’t found much on which to disagree with Larison, though I wasn’t aware of his sentimental attachment to the Confederacy, something I tolerate in Walker Percy (he’s coy about it) and other writers, but still, thank you for the Mint Julep, and now fuck off.
    Dreher is a hysterical freak (he’s the Jim Cramer of alleged Orthodox religious persecution in America), and a dangerous one to my mind, many times more so than any transsexual exhibitionist cavorting thru high-altitude wildflowers shod inappropriately, and I read him for the same reason he does does what he does, because I like a good train wreck.

  377. maybe if he spent less time locking up chicken pluckers, he could get the real criminals.
    You’d think they would first go after all those criminals in the country illegally they’re always talking about. Instead, they go after peaceful people working hard at productive jobs and taking care of their families.
    It’s all policial theater that’s expensive for taxpayers and very expensive for the communities in which the raids occurred.

  378. maybe if he spent less time locking up chicken pluckers, he could get the real criminals.
    You’d think they would first go after all those criminals in the country illegally they’re always talking about. Instead, they go after peaceful people working hard at productive jobs and taking care of their families.
    It’s all policial theater that’s expensive for taxpayers and very expensive for the communities in which the raids occurred.

  381. Netanyahu is a giant asshole. I think that he is destructive to Israel’s long-term interests, and mostly just interested in maintaining power.
    You want Tlaib and Omar to see your side of things, let them have a look.

  382. Netanyahu is a giant asshole. I think that he is destructive to Israel’s long-term interests, and mostly just interested in maintaining power.
    You want Tlaib and Omar to see your side of things, let them have a look.

  383. Israel, whose existence as a Nation I fully support, just committed an act of War against America at the behest of the Orthodox conservative right wing filth running that country and this fucked up one.
    Embargo all aid, military and otherwise, to Israel.
    Disallow all travel by Americans to Israel and toss the entire Israeli embassy and consular personnel out on their ear.
    Anyone wanna call me an anti-Semite?
    Include your address in the accusation so I can find you and kick your fucking conservative asses.

  384. Israel, whose existence as a Nation I fully support, just committed an act of War against America at the behest of the Orthodox conservative right wing filth running that country and this fucked up one.
    Embargo all aid, military and otherwise, to Israel.
    Disallow all travel by Americans to Israel and toss the entire Israeli embassy and consular personnel out on their ear.
    Anyone wanna call me an anti-Semite?
    Include your address in the accusation so I can find you and kick your fucking conservative asses.

  385. “Donald Trump launched his presidential campaign by warning that America had become a ‘dumping ground’ for immigrants and that Mexico, in particular, was sending criminals and people with ‘lots of problems.’ His presidency has been marked by anti-immigrant rhetoric.
    In the summer of 2019, President Trump previewed sweeping immigration raids, tweeting that ‘Next week ICE will begin the process of removing the millions of illegal aliens who have illicitly found their way into the United States.'”
    How To Understand Trump’s Immigration Raids: ProPublica’s Dara Lind on how the president’s workplace raids affect consumers, employers, and immigrants.

  386. “Donald Trump launched his presidential campaign by warning that America had become a ‘dumping ground’ for immigrants and that Mexico, in particular, was sending criminals and people with ‘lots of problems.’ His presidency has been marked by anti-immigrant rhetoric.
    In the summer of 2019, President Trump previewed sweeping immigration raids, tweeting that ‘Next week ICE will begin the process of removing the millions of illegal aliens who have illicitly found their way into the United States.'”
    How To Understand Trump’s Immigration Raids: ProPublica’s Dara Lind on how the president’s workplace raids affect consumers, employers, and immigrants.

  391. Insane subhuman right wing gun vermin who finances armed home break-ins and mass killings across America requires mansion with swimming pool to protect himself against armed home invasions and mass killings.
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/nra-promised-6-5-million-to-buy-mansion-for-ceo-wayne-lapierre-document-shows-11565714149
    Mysteriously, same man walks around in public and addresses crowds without a single bullet wound.
    Experts question America’s collective firearms aim.

  392. Insane subhuman right wing gun vermin who finances armed home break-ins and mass killings across America requires mansion with swimming pool to protect himself against armed home invasions and mass killings.
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/nra-promised-6-5-million-to-buy-mansion-for-ceo-wayne-lapierre-document-shows-11565714149
    Mysteriously, same man walks around in public and addresses crowds without a single bullet wound.
    Experts question America’s collective firearms aim.

  393. What byomtov said.
    Netanyahu is doing as much damage to Isreal as Trump is doing to the US. (Perhaps that’s why they get along so well.) The only real difference is that Netanyahu is only damaging the Middle East as well, whereas Trump is managing to damage the world.

  394. What byomtov said.
    Netanyahu is doing as much damage to Isreal as Trump is doing to the US. (Perhaps that’s why they get along so well.) The only real difference is that Netanyahu is only damaging the Middle East as well, whereas Trump is managing to damage the world.

  395. Beyond Meat stock craters:
    http://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/quickchart/quickchart.asp?symb=BYND&insttype=Stock
    Shareholders and Milton Friedman demand company reallocate capital from public offering, most of which now resides in private offshore bank accounts, and diversify company portfolio into ….. MEAT.
    Company issues a trillion dollars worth of low-grade bonds and tenders for the outstanding stock of Tyson Foods, Nathan’s Hot Dogs, and Hormel Inc.
    Satellite footage of Earth indicates sudden increase in the growth of the gigantic cloud of bullshit kicked up and hovering over America.

  396. Beyond Meat stock craters:
    http://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/quickchart/quickchart.asp?symb=BYND&insttype=Stock
    Shareholders and Milton Friedman demand company reallocate capital from public offering, most of which now resides in private offshore bank accounts, and diversify company portfolio into ….. MEAT.
    Company issues a trillion dollars worth of low-grade bonds and tenders for the outstanding stock of Tyson Foods, Nathan’s Hot Dogs, and Hormel Inc.
    Satellite footage of Earth indicates sudden increase in the growth of the gigantic cloud of bullshit kicked up and hovering over America.

  399. had my first Impossible Burger yesterday. i was impressed. tasted like an unremarkable cafeteria burger – which is what our cafeteria burgers always taste like. so… success.

  400. had my first Impossible Burger yesterday. i was impressed. tasted like an unremarkable cafeteria burger – which is what our cafeteria burgers always taste like. so… success.

  401. This from AIPAC:

    We disagree with Reps. Omar and Tlaib’s support for the anti-Israel and anti-peace BDS movement, along with Rep. Tlaib’s calls for a one-state solution. We also believe every member of Congress should be able to visit and experience our democratic ally Israel firsthand.

    When you’ve managed to get AIPAC to publicly criticize you, as an Israeli PM, you’ve really accomplished something.

  402. This from AIPAC:

    We disagree with Reps. Omar and Tlaib’s support for the anti-Israel and anti-peace BDS movement, along with Rep. Tlaib’s calls for a one-state solution. We also believe every member of Congress should be able to visit and experience our democratic ally Israel firsthand.

    When you’ve managed to get AIPAC to publicly criticize you, as an Israeli PM, you’ve really accomplished something.

  403. True, wj. Netanyahu is (and has been for many years) a disaster for Israel. What a travesty.

  404. True, wj. Netanyahu is (and has been for many years) a disaster for Israel. What a travesty.

  405. “The sprawling Bureau of Prisons (BOP) is one of the most opaque, tight-lipped, and slow-moving agencies in the entire federal government, and yet it sprang into action following the apparent suicide of Jeffrey Epstein, a mysterious billionaire who was rearrested in July on accusations of sex trafficking.
    …
    The “serious irregularities” that the Justice Department suddenly uncovered are everyday occurrences within the BOP, and anyone who’s bothered to pay attention to the federal prison system has known about them for years. The real irregularity is that the Justice Department is acknowledging the problems’ existence.”
    Jeffrey Epstein Is Dead Because His Jailers Neglected Him. He’s Not the Only One.: The most unusual thing about Jeffrey Epstein dying in a federal jail was how quickly the Justice Department sprang into action to investigate it.

  406. “The sprawling Bureau of Prisons (BOP) is one of the most opaque, tight-lipped, and slow-moving agencies in the entire federal government, and yet it sprang into action following the apparent suicide of Jeffrey Epstein, a mysterious billionaire who was rearrested in July on accusations of sex trafficking.
    …
    The “serious irregularities” that the Justice Department suddenly uncovered are everyday occurrences within the BOP, and anyone who’s bothered to pay attention to the federal prison system has known about them for years. The real irregularity is that the Justice Department is acknowledging the problems’ existence.”
    Jeffrey Epstein Is Dead Because His Jailers Neglected Him. He’s Not the Only One.: The most unusual thing about Jeffrey Epstein dying in a federal jail was how quickly the Justice Department sprang into action to investigate it.

  407. “anyone got the numbers on how much damage right-wing jingoism has done to the world over the millennia ?”
    The conversion from denari, wampum, shekels, dekadrachim, Giant Stone Wheels, etc. is built on rather shaky foundations, so “NO”.
    Unless by “over the millenia” you mean “since 1 Jan 2001”, in which case “roughly $50T”.

  408. “anyone got the numbers on how much damage right-wing jingoism has done to the world over the millennia ?”
    The conversion from denari, wampum, shekels, dekadrachim, Giant Stone Wheels, etc. is built on rather shaky foundations, so “NO”.
    Unless by “over the millenia” you mean “since 1 Jan 2001”, in which case “roughly $50T”.

  411. “This is true, but you seem to be assuming that Larison is a person of good will.”
    Not at all. I have read him for several years and so my views are based on fact. His views on foreign policy as he has expressed them since 2015 are much closer to mine than any liberal and most leftists I have read. It’’s why I read him. I probably would not have bothered with him in 2006– it is quite possible he has changed some of his views since then. At the very least, in the years where I have read him he is consistently on the right side, IMO, something I would never say about most liberals.
    Larison along with Micah Zenko were among the first to call out our support for the war in Yemen from its inception,years before others got around to it. This ought to be the norm. It isn’t. It was and is an act of barbarism, probably hundreds of thousands of children are dead from malnutrition and it was fracking whitewashed or ignored. I don’t know if it is still up, but I once watched a YouTube video in which a US state department official under Obama claimed that Saudi bombing of civilians was accidental, while Russian and Syrian bombing was deliberate. Now that was a lie with actual consequences. It let the Saudis know we were still on their side. But that mindset is the norm in our foreign policy and liberals and conservatives alike let it happen.
    I hope Larison has changed his views on why Confederate soldiers fought for the South but even there, where he says slavery was a repugnant institution ,he seems no different from most liberals on other subjects who give the benefit of a doubt to the warmongers they have supported. If people want to talk about guilt by association, fine, but don’t start with obscure columnists with crackpot views they don’t write about anymore. Start with people in both parties who have actual blood on their hands and then work your way down to the reporters and pundits who play the game pretending we are civilized folk who would never do such terrible things. Trump has upended that game because for whatever set of reasons he is quite openly awful.
    As for associations, if I judged everyone by their associations and mistakes I would end up reading no one at all and never voting for anyone. That’s not really much of an exaggeration. Why read the NYT or respect any of their opinion writers, given that the NYT published four opinion pieces defending the shooting of Palestinian demonstrators last year— Rosner, Tom Friedman, Matti Friedman and of course Bret Stephens. It didn’t even cross the minds of the NYT editors that there might be something wrong with publishing apologetics for a massacre. But I read them anyway, the stupid sh@@@. This is because they aren’t always morally clueless. But I probably don’t have to defend reading the NYT here. I saw people online cancelling subscriptions over their idiotic headline claiming Trump wanted unity against hate, but some folks on the left canceled them a long time ago
    As for where you draw the line, it’s extremely difficult. Some people like Trump are so far past the line there is no difficulty. But I think Western liberals could benefit from being chewed out by people much further to their left. It has happened to me a few times. It first happened when I criticized Hamas rocket fire in 2014 as a war crime. I still think that. But my critic had a point in some ways. Many or most Westerners ( liberal or not) are either clueless about what is done in our names or ( like me) think we have done something by writing letters to the editor, but either way we act like we own the moral high ground. We don’t and we never did and certainly not with respect to Gazans.
    Pro Bono— I had read much harsher things about the anarchists, but I am no expert on that, so I don’t know where the truth lies. My broader point is that the far left often has made heroes of people who were killers. So have liberals, though usually it is a different set.

  412. “This is true, but you seem to be assuming that Larison is a person of good will.”
    Not at all. I have read him for several years and so my views are based on fact. His views on foreign policy as he has expressed them since 2015 are much closer to mine than any liberal and most leftists I have read. It’’s why I read him. I probably would not have bothered with him in 2006– it is quite possible he has changed some of his views since then. At the very least, in the years where I have read him he is consistently on the right side, IMO, something I would never say about most liberals.
    Larison along with Micah Zenko were among the first to call out our support for the war in Yemen from its inception,years before others got around to it. This ought to be the norm. It isn’t. It was and is an act of barbarism, probably hundreds of thousands of children are dead from malnutrition and it was fracking whitewashed or ignored. I don’t know if it is still up, but I once watched a YouTube video in which a US state department official under Obama claimed that Saudi bombing of civilians was accidental, while Russian and Syrian bombing was deliberate. Now that was a lie with actual consequences. It let the Saudis know we were still on their side. But that mindset is the norm in our foreign policy and liberals and conservatives alike let it happen.
    I hope Larison has changed his views on why Confederate soldiers fought for the South but even there, where he says slavery was a repugnant institution ,he seems no different from most liberals on other subjects who give the benefit of a doubt to the warmongers they have supported. If people want to talk about guilt by association, fine, but don’t start with obscure columnists with crackpot views they don’t write about anymore. Start with people in both parties who have actual blood on their hands and then work your way down to the reporters and pundits who play the game pretending we are civilized folk who would never do such terrible things. Trump has upended that game because for whatever set of reasons he is quite openly awful.
    As for associations, if I judged everyone by their associations and mistakes I would end up reading no one at all and never voting for anyone. That’s not really much of an exaggeration. Why read the NYT or respect any of their opinion writers, given that the NYT published four opinion pieces defending the shooting of Palestinian demonstrators last year— Rosner, Tom Friedman, Matti Friedman and of course Bret Stephens. It didn’t even cross the minds of the NYT editors that there might be something wrong with publishing apologetics for a massacre. But I read them anyway, the stupid sh@@@. This is because they aren’t always morally clueless. But I probably don’t have to defend reading the NYT here. I saw people online cancelling subscriptions over their idiotic headline claiming Trump wanted unity against hate, but some folks on the left canceled them a long time ago
    As for where you draw the line, it’s extremely difficult. Some people like Trump are so far past the line there is no difficulty. But I think Western liberals could benefit from being chewed out by people much further to their left. It has happened to me a few times. It first happened when I criticized Hamas rocket fire in 2014 as a war crime. I still think that. But my critic had a point in some ways. Many or most Westerners ( liberal or not) are either clueless about what is done in our names or ( like me) think we have done something by writing letters to the editor, but either way we act like we own the moral high ground. We don’t and we never did and certainly not with respect to Gazans.
    Pro Bono— I had read much harsher things about the anarchists, but I am no expert on that, so I don’t know where the truth lies. My broader point is that the far left often has made heroes of people who were killers. So have liberals, though usually it is a different set.

  413. One more made up headline today:
    Asshole proposes buying Greenland, mining its resources while canceling its social welfare system, including all health care for “Natives”.
    OK, I give up, it’s real.
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-buy-greenland
    Guess I’ll have to make up another fake one:
    Greenland Military Expeditionary Force Lands at Mouth Of Potomac River, Makes Way to White House and blows it up, butchering and slaughtering the residents as they flee.
    The speed at which reality catches up with fake news is daunting so enjoy the fiction while you can.

  414. One more made up headline today:
    Asshole proposes buying Greenland, mining its resources while canceling its social welfare system, including all health care for “Natives”.
    OK, I give up, it’s real.
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-buy-greenland
    Guess I’ll have to make up another fake one:
    Greenland Military Expeditionary Force Lands at Mouth Of Potomac River, Makes Way to White House and blows it up, butchering and slaughtering the residents as they flee.
    The speed at which reality catches up with fake news is daunting so enjoy the fiction while you can.

  417. LGM uses same Godfather footage as I did to illustrate features of the Epstein catastrophe, but brilliant minds follow similar tracks:
    http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2019/08/but-their-families-their-families-were-taken-care-of
    The pretty young girl was Attorney General William Barr dressed as a schoolgirl staying after for detention. Halfway thru the in-prison tryst Miss Barr offered a new fantasy role-play: OK, I’ll be the Warden and you be the prisoner scheduled for hanging.

  418. LGM uses same Godfather footage as I did to illustrate features of the Epstein catastrophe, but brilliant minds follow similar tracks:
    http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2019/08/but-their-families-their-families-were-taken-care-of
    The pretty young girl was Attorney General William Barr dressed as a schoolgirl staying after for detention. Halfway thru the in-prison tryst Miss Barr offered a new fantasy role-play: OK, I’ll be the Warden and you be the prisoner scheduled for hanging.

  421. The NYT on the Trump- Netanyahu-Tlaib-Omar issue.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/15/opinion/israel-omar-tlaib.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage
    They seem far more concerned about Israel’s image and what has been the bipartisan support for Israel and Trump bullying Israel than they are about what Palestinians might think about Israel refusing entry to the West Bank.. After all, they assure us, Israel is a strong enough democracy to stand up to a few critics. Well, sure, what with all that bipartisan support, they can ignore pretty much any criticism of their human rights record. I don’t think the NYT editors should lose much sleep about that.
    Speaking of that, I just watched the PBS newshour. I learned several things. First, as with the NYT editors, Palestinian views on issues that concern them the most are of no importance whatsoever, so none were invited. This is a basic principle. The two sides that mattered were represented by a former Israeli ambassador who said it was right to keep them out and Democratic congressman Brad Sherman who said tiny little Israel was being bullied by its only friend in the world and this was just awful. Both agreed that the BDS movement was a horrific thing— Sherman said it was a plot to drive all Jews out of the Middle East and sort of tap danced around how his colleagues could support it. The interviewer accepted all these claims, as of course she should, since both invited sides agreed, but she was tough— she asked the Israeli why, if Israel allowed an antisemite like Orban to visit, it couldn’t allow the two congresswomen? Why wasn’t it the same? Yeah, she really got to the heart of the issue there.
    .

  422. The NYT on the Trump- Netanyahu-Tlaib-Omar issue.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/15/opinion/israel-omar-tlaib.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage
    They seem far more concerned about Israel’s image and what has been the bipartisan support for Israel and Trump bullying Israel than they are about what Palestinians might think about Israel refusing entry to the West Bank.. After all, they assure us, Israel is a strong enough democracy to stand up to a few critics. Well, sure, what with all that bipartisan support, they can ignore pretty much any criticism of their human rights record. I don’t think the NYT editors should lose much sleep about that.
    Speaking of that, I just watched the PBS newshour. I learned several things. First, as with the NYT editors, Palestinian views on issues that concern them the most are of no importance whatsoever, so none were invited. This is a basic principle. The two sides that mattered were represented by a former Israeli ambassador who said it was right to keep them out and Democratic congressman Brad Sherman who said tiny little Israel was being bullied by its only friend in the world and this was just awful. Both agreed that the BDS movement was a horrific thing— Sherman said it was a plot to drive all Jews out of the Middle East and sort of tap danced around how his colleagues could support it. The interviewer accepted all these claims, as of course she should, since both invited sides agreed, but she was tough— she asked the Israeli why, if Israel allowed an antisemite like Orban to visit, it couldn’t allow the two congresswomen? Why wasn’t it the same? Yeah, she really got to the heart of the issue there.
    .

  423. As for where you draw the line, it’s extremely difficult.
    Michelle Obama apparently commented at some point to Barack Obama that politics was not noble work. Or maybe honorable, I forget which. Whether the story is true or not, I find that an apt statement.
    Politics is at some level always about power. Who can hold and wield it, what constraints are placed upon them. What can they legitimately do with it, what is out of bounds. Power is inherently dangerous, and people seem to be inherently flawed and limited in their understanding of the world. So, damage is inevitable.
    I never expect unusual virtue from people who hold positions of power. Even less, perhaps, do I expect it from institutions. IMO the genius of the American project is its suspicion of power held too closely by any one actor, and its structural guards against that – the famous checks and balances.
    My personal ideal, politically, is a scenario where the intent of the people is more or less transparently expressed in public policy. Of the people, by the people, for the people. A commonwealth.
    Unfortunately, we don’t have the kind of consensus that is needed to make that happen in anything like an efficient or fair manner.
    Long story short, politics is a f***ed up business, prone to corruption. If the libertarian thing had a chance in hell of actually working, you could persuade me that that was the way to go. I don’t think it does, so I’m obliged to make do with what actually is feasible.
    The weird thing about living in a self-governing polity is that we all own the responsibility for whatever our political entities cough up. Town, county, state, nation. We all participate, or at least have the opportunity to do so. We all share in whatever good things are done, and we all share in whatever bad things are done.
    The blood of the Yemenis is on our hands. Historically, the blood of the native Americans is on our hands, the blood of the Africans brought here against their will is on our hands. In general we live lives of remarkable ease, and we do so by consuming the resources of the planet in amounts far beyond what we can reasonably claim to be fair, and all of that is on our hands.
    We’re all culpable. All of us, each and every one.
    So yeah, that is my starting point, when it comes to politics. It’s a fucked up business, at its best it is an exercise in compromise of all kinds including moral and ethical, and because we all have the opportunity to participate in it, we all have a share in the responsibility for that.
    And from that starting point, I try to figure out how to leverage my tiny – really and truly tiny – bit of leverage to see if I can, somehow, make it slightly less crappy. Maybe even ever so slightly good.
    As a practical matter, you can always make a much bigger dent by just doing stuff in your own personal life, or in your family, or your immediate community. Like, leaps and bounds bigger.
    But we have the opportunity, here where we live, to play in a slightly larger field. Our individual impact is miniscule to the point of being laughable. But, if we choose to engage, we can, so we do our best.
    That’s my take on it.
    It is not, remotely, noble work. It’s just work that needs to be done. Some folks do it for a living, and my hat is off to those who take that on with good intentions. The rest of us dip our toes in it and hope for the best.
    FWIW I haven’t read the NYT since the Keller days. Apropos of nothing in particular.

  424. As for where you draw the line, it’s extremely difficult.
    Michelle Obama apparently commented at some point to Barack Obama that politics was not noble work. Or maybe honorable, I forget which. Whether the story is true or not, I find that an apt statement.
    Politics is at some level always about power. Who can hold and wield it, what constraints are placed upon them. What can they legitimately do with it, what is out of bounds. Power is inherently dangerous, and people seem to be inherently flawed and limited in their understanding of the world. So, damage is inevitable.
    I never expect unusual virtue from people who hold positions of power. Even less, perhaps, do I expect it from institutions. IMO the genius of the American project is its suspicion of power held too closely by any one actor, and its structural guards against that – the famous checks and balances.
    My personal ideal, politically, is a scenario where the intent of the people is more or less transparently expressed in public policy. Of the people, by the people, for the people. A commonwealth.
    Unfortunately, we don’t have the kind of consensus that is needed to make that happen in anything like an efficient or fair manner.
    Long story short, politics is a f***ed up business, prone to corruption. If the libertarian thing had a chance in hell of actually working, you could persuade me that that was the way to go. I don’t think it does, so I’m obliged to make do with what actually is feasible.
    The weird thing about living in a self-governing polity is that we all own the responsibility for whatever our political entities cough up. Town, county, state, nation. We all participate, or at least have the opportunity to do so. We all share in whatever good things are done, and we all share in whatever bad things are done.
    The blood of the Yemenis is on our hands. Historically, the blood of the native Americans is on our hands, the blood of the Africans brought here against their will is on our hands. In general we live lives of remarkable ease, and we do so by consuming the resources of the planet in amounts far beyond what we can reasonably claim to be fair, and all of that is on our hands.
    We’re all culpable. All of us, each and every one.
    So yeah, that is my starting point, when it comes to politics. It’s a fucked up business, at its best it is an exercise in compromise of all kinds including moral and ethical, and because we all have the opportunity to participate in it, we all have a share in the responsibility for that.
    And from that starting point, I try to figure out how to leverage my tiny – really and truly tiny – bit of leverage to see if I can, somehow, make it slightly less crappy. Maybe even ever so slightly good.
    As a practical matter, you can always make a much bigger dent by just doing stuff in your own personal life, or in your family, or your immediate community. Like, leaps and bounds bigger.
    But we have the opportunity, here where we live, to play in a slightly larger field. Our individual impact is miniscule to the point of being laughable. But, if we choose to engage, we can, so we do our best.
    That’s my take on it.
    It is not, remotely, noble work. It’s just work that needs to be done. Some folks do it for a living, and my hat is off to those who take that on with good intentions. The rest of us dip our toes in it and hope for the best.
    FWIW I haven’t read the NYT since the Keller days. Apropos of nothing in particular.

  425. Donald,
    If people want to talk about guilt by association, fine, but don’t start with obscure columnists with crackpot views they don’t write about anymore.
    Taki may be obscure. Why obscurity is an excuse for promoting evil ideas I will leave for you to explain.
    Buchanan is not obscure. He is/was prominent.
    Three of my four grandparents died at Treblinka, or en route. Who knows. So did three men who would have been my uncles. So fuck Pat Buchanan, who doesn’t think that happened, and thinks Nazi war criminals have been unfairly treated.
    And fuck anyone, including Larison, who thinks it’s just fine to associate with a Nazi apologist and Holocaust denialist. I don’t care what he thinks about Yemen or anything else. If he had any decency he’d find another job.

  426. Donald,
    If people want to talk about guilt by association, fine, but don’t start with obscure columnists with crackpot views they don’t write about anymore.
    Taki may be obscure. Why obscurity is an excuse for promoting evil ideas I will leave for you to explain.
    Buchanan is not obscure. He is/was prominent.
    Three of my four grandparents died at Treblinka, or en route. Who knows. So did three men who would have been my uncles. So fuck Pat Buchanan, who doesn’t think that happened, and thinks Nazi war criminals have been unfairly treated.
    And fuck anyone, including Larison, who thinks it’s just fine to associate with a Nazi apologist and Holocaust denialist. I don’t care what he thinks about Yemen or anything else. If he had any decency he’d find another job.

  427. My view of politics, for most of my life, has been that we stand in the breach, stolen directly from Jackson Browne.
    No matter my politics, which at best expresses my view of how to accomplish the world I imagine, I stand in the way of those who who would use their power to deny us that world.
    Together we stand for safety, security, harmony, respect, opportunity, beauty, and the right to dream. When we forget that we stand together for those things in the fight over how and who to trust to help us create that world, we move back from the breach. And it gets bigger.
    When russell talks about getting in the way I am mostly ok with that, it is an expression of that responsibility we have to try to make this world a reflection of the world we imagine for ourselves, but for everyone.
    I have little respect for the political machines nattering at our worst fears to move us away from our post, shoulder to shoulder, constantly defending the best of our dreams.
    Not so randomly, one of the earliest songs I felt expressed my views was For Everyman, and across a lifetime Lives in the Balance took on that place, only to come full circle to Standing in the Breach. That change we need is in everyone.
    I just want to express the respect I have for everyone here, I think we are better off than you fear, because of each of you.

  428. My view of politics, for most of my life, has been that we stand in the breach, stolen directly from Jackson Browne.
    No matter my politics, which at best expresses my view of how to accomplish the world I imagine, I stand in the way of those who who would use their power to deny us that world.
    Together we stand for safety, security, harmony, respect, opportunity, beauty, and the right to dream. When we forget that we stand together for those things in the fight over how and who to trust to help us create that world, we move back from the breach. And it gets bigger.
    When russell talks about getting in the way I am mostly ok with that, it is an expression of that responsibility we have to try to make this world a reflection of the world we imagine for ourselves, but for everyone.
    I have little respect for the political machines nattering at our worst fears to move us away from our post, shoulder to shoulder, constantly defending the best of our dreams.
    Not so randomly, one of the earliest songs I felt expressed my views was For Everyman, and across a lifetime Lives in the Balance took on that place, only to come full circle to Standing in the Breach. That change we need is in everyone.
    I just want to express the respect I have for everyone here, I think we are better off than you fear, because of each of you.

  429. They seem far more concerned about Israel’s image and what has been the bipartisan support for Israel and Trump bullying Israel than they are about what Palestinians might think about Israel refusing entry to the West Bank.
    Which isn’t actually unreasonable. Changing what Palestinians think of Israel, at this point, would be an enormous, multi-decade, undertaking. Whether a particular Congressman gets to visit will make no perceptible difference.
    On the other hand, refusing entry to a couple of members of the US Congress bids fair to change some minds among their fellows. Which may be a serious problem for Israel going forward. Even if Netanyahu loses, those shifted perceptions will remain.

  430. They seem far more concerned about Israel’s image and what has been the bipartisan support for Israel and Trump bullying Israel than they are about what Palestinians might think about Israel refusing entry to the West Bank.
    Which isn’t actually unreasonable. Changing what Palestinians think of Israel, at this point, would be an enormous, multi-decade, undertaking. Whether a particular Congressman gets to visit will make no perceptible difference.
    On the other hand, refusing entry to a couple of members of the US Congress bids fair to change some minds among their fellows. Which may be a serious problem for Israel going forward. Even if Netanyahu loses, those shifted perceptions will remain.

  431. Bernard
    First, I am not going to argue with you about whether you should read Larison. I don’t think he should have associated with Buchanan and if you think that is inexcusable I won’t argue that you should.
    At the same time, over the past several years I have agreed with virtually everything he has written. It strikes me as unlikely in the extreme that he is a fascist apologist. If I were really interested in Larison the man as opposed to what he has been writing then it might be worth my time to see if his views noticeably changed from 2006 until now. But I am not. What he writes now about foreign policy is simply better in my view than 99 percent of the rationalizing murderous crap in the mainstream. And the mainstream is full of murderous hypocritical crap. Why don’t those writers do better?
    “Why obscurity is an excuse for promoting evil ideas I will leave for you to explain.”
    I don’t think obscurity is an excuse for promoting evil ideas. The point was that if people in general really want to go after hypocrisy on human rights they would go after the big fish, the actual war criminals in our own society and the people who rationalize what they do. But people don’t do that. They make rationalizations for the big fish in their own party, and so we usually end up choosing between evils.

  432. Bernard
    First, I am not going to argue with you about whether you should read Larison. I don’t think he should have associated with Buchanan and if you think that is inexcusable I won’t argue that you should.
    At the same time, over the past several years I have agreed with virtually everything he has written. It strikes me as unlikely in the extreme that he is a fascist apologist. If I were really interested in Larison the man as opposed to what he has been writing then it might be worth my time to see if his views noticeably changed from 2006 until now. But I am not. What he writes now about foreign policy is simply better in my view than 99 percent of the rationalizing murderous crap in the mainstream. And the mainstream is full of murderous hypocritical crap. Why don’t those writers do better?
    “Why obscurity is an excuse for promoting evil ideas I will leave for you to explain.”
    I don’t think obscurity is an excuse for promoting evil ideas. The point was that if people in general really want to go after hypocrisy on human rights they would go after the big fish, the actual war criminals in our own society and the people who rationalize what they do. But people don’t do that. They make rationalizations for the big fish in their own party, and so we usually end up choosing between evils.

  435. “Which isn’t actually unreasonable. Changing what Palestinians think of Israel, at this point, would be an enormous, multi-decade, undertaking. Whether a particular Congressman gets to visit will make no perceptible difference.”
    Not what I meant. Palestinians will always resent being expelled from their homeland. They might get over it given a reasonable peace deal, which seems impossible for the foreseeable future by any definition of reasonable.
    What I meant was there is this unconscious bias in our press against the Palestinians. The Israelis banned the two from visiting the West Bank, which emphasizes how little control Palestinians have over anything and their feelings are ignored. Instead we have the NYT and PBS arguing about what is good for Israel. The NYT editors seem angry that Trump might be endangering the bipartisan support for Israel, but it has been that bipartisan support that has enabled the occupation to continue. Talking about how Israel’s democracy is strong enough to take a little criticism is inane. The point is that Israel has been democratically choosing to be oppressive, knowing up until Netanyahu and Trump that it could always count on bipartisan support from the US despite performative grumbling about how the next settlement block makes a 2ss harder.
    Marty —Good post. I tried to think of something better to say, but I got nothing.

  436. “Which isn’t actually unreasonable. Changing what Palestinians think of Israel, at this point, would be an enormous, multi-decade, undertaking. Whether a particular Congressman gets to visit will make no perceptible difference.”
    Not what I meant. Palestinians will always resent being expelled from their homeland. They might get over it given a reasonable peace deal, which seems impossible for the foreseeable future by any definition of reasonable.
    What I meant was there is this unconscious bias in our press against the Palestinians. The Israelis banned the two from visiting the West Bank, which emphasizes how little control Palestinians have over anything and their feelings are ignored. Instead we have the NYT and PBS arguing about what is good for Israel. The NYT editors seem angry that Trump might be endangering the bipartisan support for Israel, but it has been that bipartisan support that has enabled the occupation to continue. Talking about how Israel’s democracy is strong enough to take a little criticism is inane. The point is that Israel has been democratically choosing to be oppressive, knowing up until Netanyahu and Trump that it could always count on bipartisan support from the US despite performative grumbling about how the next settlement block makes a 2ss harder.
    Marty —Good post. I tried to think of something better to say, but I got nothing.

  437. The remarkable thing about Israel’s action is that it is a complete volte face on their original official reaction to the visit, and took place a scant hour after Trump’s tweet suggesting it.
    For any self respecting nation, that should be utterly humiliating.
    And well said, Marty.

  438. The remarkable thing about Israel’s action is that it is a complete volte face on their original official reaction to the visit, and took place a scant hour after Trump’s tweet suggesting it.
    For any self respecting nation, that should be utterly humiliating.
    And well said, Marty.

  441. Donald,
    The issue is not Larison’s writing but whether he is a person of good will. Because you agree with his foreign policy writing you conclude that he is.
    I don’t think that whitewashes his associations (or, for that matter his former(?) neo-Confederate views, of which I was previously unaware.)
    “Guilt by association” covers a lot of ground. Buchanan’s whole career is revolting, putting it politely. And Larison’s asociation with him is not incidental or unavoidable. It was chosen.

  442. Donald,
    The issue is not Larison’s writing but whether he is a person of good will. Because you agree with his foreign policy writing you conclude that he is.
    I don’t think that whitewashes his associations (or, for that matter his former(?) neo-Confederate views, of which I was previously unaware.)
    “Guilt by association” covers a lot of ground. Buchanan’s whole career is revolting, putting it politely. And Larison’s asociation with him is not incidental or unavoidable. It was chosen.

  443. Donald,
    What do you think motivates the bipartisan support for Israel among American politicos? Is it the “Jewish vote”? Or the “Evangelical vote”?
    Most Greek Americans, especially older ones, insist it’s “Jewish money” — a theory I find offensive and pathologically conspiratorial, though Sheldon Adelson does give me pause.
    I doubt it’s “Middle East oil”, since the God of Abraham saw fit to stick the oil mostly under the lands He ceded to Allah. Uncritical bipartisan support for Israel seems (and occasionally has proved to be) unhelpful on the oil front.
    So the question remains: what’s the motivation, do you think?
    –TP

  444. Donald,
    What do you think motivates the bipartisan support for Israel among American politicos? Is it the “Jewish vote”? Or the “Evangelical vote”?
    Most Greek Americans, especially older ones, insist it’s “Jewish money” — a theory I find offensive and pathologically conspiratorial, though Sheldon Adelson does give me pause.
    I doubt it’s “Middle East oil”, since the God of Abraham saw fit to stick the oil mostly under the lands He ceded to Allah. Uncritical bipartisan support for Israel seems (and occasionally has proved to be) unhelpful on the oil front.
    So the question remains: what’s the motivation, do you think?
    –TP

  447. Paleocons and hard core socialist lefties (you know, real lefties :)) have strikingly similar takes on US hegemony. However, the underlying rationale is worlds apart.
    That’s my point, such as it is.
    Take a look at this.
    Thanks.

  448. Paleocons and hard core socialist lefties (you know, real lefties :)) have strikingly similar takes on US hegemony. However, the underlying rationale is worlds apart.
    That’s my point, such as it is.
    Take a look at this.
    Thanks.

  449. I’d say there has been a long term effort to equate Jews with Israel and a more recent one to equate Israel with its current RW government. Starting with mainly just good PR it is now to a significant degree a case of massive amounts of money from almost exclusively RW sources (Jewish and non-Jewish) plus raw intimidation.
    There is a symbiosis made in hell between extremist ‘Christians’ (theocrats, milleniarists*) in the US and the de facto fascist Right in Israel with both sides seeing each other as the useful idiots.
    That also explains the paradox of rabid antisemites unconditionally supporting the RW in Israel and the latter’s lack of a problem with welcoming them.
    What once was a mostly benign strategy to secure vital support for a state under constant threat has become the probably greatest single source of antisemitism in the world. And the RW government of Israel imo secretly appreciates it because it sells itself successfully as the lone protector in a hostile world.
    *who believe that the Jews are the necessary fuse for Armageddon (and its first victims).

  450. I’d say there has been a long term effort to equate Jews with Israel and a more recent one to equate Israel with its current RW government. Starting with mainly just good PR it is now to a significant degree a case of massive amounts of money from almost exclusively RW sources (Jewish and non-Jewish) plus raw intimidation.
    There is a symbiosis made in hell between extremist ‘Christians’ (theocrats, milleniarists*) in the US and the de facto fascist Right in Israel with both sides seeing each other as the useful idiots.
    That also explains the paradox of rabid antisemites unconditionally supporting the RW in Israel and the latter’s lack of a problem with welcoming them.
    What once was a mostly benign strategy to secure vital support for a state under constant threat has become the probably greatest single source of antisemitism in the world. And the RW government of Israel imo secretly appreciates it because it sells itself successfully as the lone protector in a hostile world.
    *who believe that the Jews are the necessary fuse for Armageddon (and its first victims).

  451. nationalists always want to the (correct) people and the country be one and the same. and the ‘correct’ always includes a race, a religion and a language.

  452. nationalists always want to the (correct) people and the country be one and the same. and the ‘correct’ always includes a race, a religion and a language.

  453. I’ve considered making the argument to people who mindless chant “USA!!! USA!!!” that the very concept of nationalism is questionable without even getting into the virtues or lack thereof of the United States as a nation. I imagine blank stares would be the result.

  454. I’ve considered making the argument to people who mindless chant “USA!!! USA!!!” that the very concept of nationalism is questionable without even getting into the virtues or lack thereof of the United States as a nation. I imagine blank stares would be the result.

  457. Erik the Red was an American time traveler. Greenland has always been ours.
    Oh, and “mindlessly.”

  458. Erik the Red was an American time traveler. Greenland has always been ours.
    Oh, and “mindlessly.”

  459. When we forget that we stand together for those things in the fight over how and who to trust to help us create that world, we move back from the breach. And it gets bigger.
    Marty, that was a lovely post, and I agree with you (and by the way, I knew neither of those songs, so thank you for that). I know that it’s possible, and increasingly tempting, to think that people with very different political views from one’s own are either a) people of bad as opposed to good will (in byomtov’s formulation), or if not that then b) aspiring to such general, feelgood kumbaya notions of what is desirable such that nobody could disagree, making such aspirations meaningless. And sometimes one of these diagnoses is true. But I know, from observing what you write for years, that this does not apply to you: I may disagree profoundly with a lot of your prescriptions about how and who to trust to help us create the kind of world we want (and I certainly disagree enormously with many of your ideas about public figures etc), but I don’t think our ideas of what kind of world that should be are really so very different.
    And I have a strong feeling that when we lose touch with the understanding that we can disagree very vehemently, without demonising or denigrating the other (always assuming that we assess the other to be a person of good will), then that is the first (or maybe the final) step toward a probably fatal polarisation which will inevitably perpetuate a world that none of us, and no people of good will, would want.

  460. When we forget that we stand together for those things in the fight over how and who to trust to help us create that world, we move back from the breach. And it gets bigger.
    Marty, that was a lovely post, and I agree with you (and by the way, I knew neither of those songs, so thank you for that). I know that it’s possible, and increasingly tempting, to think that people with very different political views from one’s own are either a) people of bad as opposed to good will (in byomtov’s formulation), or if not that then b) aspiring to such general, feelgood kumbaya notions of what is desirable such that nobody could disagree, making such aspirations meaningless. And sometimes one of these diagnoses is true. But I know, from observing what you write for years, that this does not apply to you: I may disagree profoundly with a lot of your prescriptions about how and who to trust to help us create the kind of world we want (and I certainly disagree enormously with many of your ideas about public figures etc), but I don’t think our ideas of what kind of world that should be are really so very different.
    And I have a strong feeling that when we lose touch with the understanding that we can disagree very vehemently, without demonising or denigrating the other (always assuming that we assess the other to be a person of good will), then that is the first (or maybe the final) step toward a probably fatal polarisation which will inevitably perpetuate a world that none of us, and no people of good will, would want.

  461. So the question remains: what’s the motivation [for supporting Israel], do you think?
    I think a major factor is inertia.
    In Israel’s first couple of decades it was a lone example of Western democracy surrounded by autocracies. When the 1967 War started, the US government said it was going to “be neutral in thought, word, and deed.” Which nobody believed. Because, as one wag put it at the time**, “the Arab states are, to put it neutrally, Arab states.”
    Over time, Israel changed. Netanyahu being merely the worst example. But there wasn’t a single major event to motivate US politicians’ opinions to shift. And Israel has a top-notch lobbying operation to keep it from doing so.
    Whether this particular incident, combined with the highly visible romance between Trump and Netanyahu, will turn the corner remains to be seen. It’s entirely possible that even this may not be enough for Democrats to move. (The evangelicals end-days views mean the GOP wouldn’t, even absent Trump.)
    ** “A Guide for Neutral Thinkers” by (as I recall, Art Buchwald.

  462. So the question remains: what’s the motivation [for supporting Israel], do you think?
    I think a major factor is inertia.
    In Israel’s first couple of decades it was a lone example of Western democracy surrounded by autocracies. When the 1967 War started, the US government said it was going to “be neutral in thought, word, and deed.” Which nobody believed. Because, as one wag put it at the time**, “the Arab states are, to put it neutrally, Arab states.”
    Over time, Israel changed. Netanyahu being merely the worst example. But there wasn’t a single major event to motivate US politicians’ opinions to shift. And Israel has a top-notch lobbying operation to keep it from doing so.
    Whether this particular incident, combined with the highly visible romance between Trump and Netanyahu, will turn the corner remains to be seen. It’s entirely possible that even this may not be enough for Democrats to move. (The evangelicals end-days views mean the GOP wouldn’t, even absent Trump.)
    ** “A Guide for Neutral Thinkers” by (as I recall, Art Buchwald.

  463. So the question remains: what’s the motivation, do you think?
    The current American political classes largely believe they are the inheritors of the British Palestinian Mandate to run the Middle East, and that maintenance of the state of Israel is an obligation that arose in the aftermath of WWII. Whether that’s historically accurate is immaterial; it’s what they believe now.

  464. So the question remains: what’s the motivation, do you think?
    The current American political classes largely believe they are the inheritors of the British Palestinian Mandate to run the Middle East, and that maintenance of the state of Israel is an obligation that arose in the aftermath of WWII. Whether that’s historically accurate is immaterial; it’s what they believe now.

  465. ** “A Guide for Neutral Thinkers” by (as I recall) Art Buchwald.
    As I think further, I believe the author may have been Art Hoppe, who was a humor columnist for the San Francisco Chronicle.

  466. ** “A Guide for Neutral Thinkers” by (as I recall) Art Buchwald.
    As I think further, I believe the author may have been Art Hoppe, who was a humor columnist for the San Francisco Chronicle.

  467. Greenland has always been ours.
    I have to wonder: Why? Why would we want it? Even with global warming melting its ice cap, it has nothing much to recommend it. (“Greenland” is an early piece of marketing to attract settlers. Just as “Iceland” was a piece of reverse marketing, to keep the riff raff away. Erik was ahead of his time.)
    Of course, there doesn’t have to be any sense to it to motivate Trump. But usually there’s something you can spot that set him off. Could it really be Erik’s marketing, still working after all these centuries?

  468. Greenland has always been ours.
    I have to wonder: Why? Why would we want it? Even with global warming melting its ice cap, it has nothing much to recommend it. (“Greenland” is an early piece of marketing to attract settlers. Just as “Iceland” was a piece of reverse marketing, to keep the riff raff away. Erik was ahead of his time.)
    Of course, there doesn’t have to be any sense to it to motivate Trump. But usually there’s something you can spot that set him off. Could it really be Erik’s marketing, still working after all these centuries?

  469. maintenance of the state of Israel is an obligation that arose in the aftermath of WWII
    this.
    and from this has blossomed the evil and ridiculous notion that to question Israel is to be anti-Semitic. and everyone in the US knows that to be anti-Semetic is to be a Nazi.
    generations of politicians have used the attack against each other and now we’re stuck with unquestioning maximal support for Israel.
    no doubt Israeli politicians know this and use it to their advantage. but we can’t acknowledge that.
    [and so pervasive and deeply-rooted is this notion that i’m sure some here are wondering if i secretly hate the Jews, just for typing this]

  470. maintenance of the state of Israel is an obligation that arose in the aftermath of WWII
    this.
    and from this has blossomed the evil and ridiculous notion that to question Israel is to be anti-Semitic. and everyone in the US knows that to be anti-Semetic is to be a Nazi.
    generations of politicians have used the attack against each other and now we’re stuck with unquestioning maximal support for Israel.
    no doubt Israeli politicians know this and use it to their advantage. but we can’t acknowledge that.
    [and so pervasive and deeply-rooted is this notion that i’m sure some here are wondering if i secretly hate the Jews, just for typing this]

  473. if the left has no power it’s odd that so many of the policy proposals coming from the Dem candidates would have been unthinkably left (despite not being very left at all), 8 years ago.

  474. if the left has no power it’s odd that so many of the policy proposals coming from the Dem candidates would have been unthinkably left (despite not being very left at all), 8 years ago.

  477. Somewhat related, a bumper sticker I saw on my way to work this morning:

    Wake up America!!! Capitalism pays for socialism!!!

    I mean, that would be nice, assuming that “socialism” really (and erroneously) means a robust safety net. Otherwise, I’m not quite sure what that could possibly mean. Either way, I will try to discontinue being asleep.

  478. Somewhat related, a bumper sticker I saw on my way to work this morning:

    Wake up America!!! Capitalism pays for socialism!!!

    I mean, that would be nice, assuming that “socialism” really (and erroneously) means a robust safety net. Otherwise, I’m not quite sure what that could possibly mean. Either way, I will try to discontinue being asleep.

  479. good news, LGBTQ community
    One of the downsides of a memory that stretches way back is that your mind includes nasty terms from long ago. Which, I suppose, is why my instant response to that headline was to brand the authors “house niggers”. Embarrassing.
    But it’s true that, no matter how nasty you are to any group, you can always find a couple of members of that group who will speak up on your behalf. I suppose it’s a variation of the Stockholm Syndrome.

  480. good news, LGBTQ community
    One of the downsides of a memory that stretches way back is that your mind includes nasty terms from long ago. Which, I suppose, is why my instant response to that headline was to brand the authors “house niggers”. Embarrassing.
    But it’s true that, no matter how nasty you are to any group, you can always find a couple of members of that group who will speak up on your behalf. I suppose it’s a variation of the Stockholm Syndrome.

  481. The interesting part when the great melt happens/ed is the Northern part of Greenland because of the territorial waters that come with it.
    Those Icelanders canoodled far too much with their Celtic slave girls to still count as Aryan (iirc at least on the female side there is still a 3rd of Irish DNA).
    And the native Greenlanders had so much fun between the seal skin sheets with foreign missionaries that German family names are ubiquitous (which word could almost pass a Greenlandish with an extra q).
    If you get the chance, watch the first Greenlandish horror movie Qaqqat Alanngui (available on DVD and Bluray but with European region code).

  482. The interesting part when the great melt happens/ed is the Northern part of Greenland because of the territorial waters that come with it.
    Those Icelanders canoodled far too much with their Celtic slave girls to still count as Aryan (iirc at least on the female side there is still a 3rd of Irish DNA).
    And the native Greenlanders had so much fun between the seal skin sheets with foreign missionaries that German family names are ubiquitous (which word could almost pass a Greenlandish with an extra q).
    If you get the chance, watch the first Greenlandish horror movie Qaqqat Alanngui (available on DVD and Bluray but with European region code).

  483. This
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/08/15/2020-democrat-will-get-my-vote-never-trump-ex-republican-column/2013614001/
    is fun.

    I don’t care if Sen. Elizabeth Warren is a mendacious Massachusetts liberal. She could tell me that she’s going to make me wear waffles as underpants and I’ll vote for her. I don’t care if Sen. Kamala Harris is an opportunistic California prosecutor who wants to relitigate busing. She could tell me that I have to drive to work in a go-cart covered with Barbie decals and I’ll vote for her. I don’t care if Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders is a muddle-headed socialist from a rural class-warfare state (where I once lived as one of his constituents). He could tell me he’s going to tax used kitty litter and I’ll vote for him.

    And this guy, like me, is a Republican! (And I know nothing else about him.) Also

    I am willing to live with whoever wins the Democratic primary process. I will likely hate the nominee’s policies, but at least I will not be concerned that he or she is incapable of understanding “the nuclear” or “the cyber.” I will feel like I have a shot at trying to convince my elected representatives that they should listen to the policy preferences of normal human beings instead of two old men wearing shirts that say they’d “rather be a Russian than a Democrat,” or a woman in a shirt indicating that she is willing to have the president grab her genitalia.
    The Democratic candidate will promise to nominate people into Cabinet posts who will make me tear my hair out. But at least I will be confident that they are in charge of their own inner circle, instead of surrounded by unprincipled cronies who keep their own boss in the dark while taking a hatchet to the Constitution. Is there anyone that Warren or former Vice President Joe Biden could bring to, say, the Justice Department, whom I would fear more than an odious and sinister courtier like William Barr?
    I never thought I could miss Eric Holder, yet here we are.

    Read the whole thing.

  484. This
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/08/15/2020-democrat-will-get-my-vote-never-trump-ex-republican-column/2013614001/
    is fun.

    I don’t care if Sen. Elizabeth Warren is a mendacious Massachusetts liberal. She could tell me that she’s going to make me wear waffles as underpants and I’ll vote for her. I don’t care if Sen. Kamala Harris is an opportunistic California prosecutor who wants to relitigate busing. She could tell me that I have to drive to work in a go-cart covered with Barbie decals and I’ll vote for her. I don’t care if Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders is a muddle-headed socialist from a rural class-warfare state (where I once lived as one of his constituents). He could tell me he’s going to tax used kitty litter and I’ll vote for him.

    And this guy, like me, is a Republican! (And I know nothing else about him.) Also

    I am willing to live with whoever wins the Democratic primary process. I will likely hate the nominee’s policies, but at least I will not be concerned that he or she is incapable of understanding “the nuclear” or “the cyber.” I will feel like I have a shot at trying to convince my elected representatives that they should listen to the policy preferences of normal human beings instead of two old men wearing shirts that say they’d “rather be a Russian than a Democrat,” or a woman in a shirt indicating that she is willing to have the president grab her genitalia.
    The Democratic candidate will promise to nominate people into Cabinet posts who will make me tear my hair out. But at least I will be confident that they are in charge of their own inner circle, instead of surrounded by unprincipled cronies who keep their own boss in the dark while taking a hatchet to the Constitution. Is there anyone that Warren or former Vice President Joe Biden could bring to, say, the Justice Department, whom I would fear more than an odious and sinister courtier like William Barr?
    I never thought I could miss Eric Holder, yet here we are.

    Read the whole thing.

  485. Headline on nbcnews dot com right now:
    Trump’s Green New Deal: President considering buying Greenland
    They bitch a lot at BJ about the failures of the media, and although I am overly weary about having something ever more outlandish to bitch about every day, that headline epitomizes the way in which the media has collaborated with and enabled the lunacy we’re living through.
    It makes no sense to “consider buying” something that isn’t fucking for sale. Couldn’t they even say “considering making an offer to Denmark,” or something that wouldn’t make it seem quite so much like the lunatic in the White House is actually sane?

  486. Headline on nbcnews dot com right now:
    Trump’s Green New Deal: President considering buying Greenland
    They bitch a lot at BJ about the failures of the media, and although I am overly weary about having something ever more outlandish to bitch about every day, that headline epitomizes the way in which the media has collaborated with and enabled the lunacy we’re living through.
    It makes no sense to “consider buying” something that isn’t fucking for sale. Couldn’t they even say “considering making an offer to Denmark,” or something that wouldn’t make it seem quite so much like the lunatic in the White House is actually sane?

  491. you laugh, but we’re not talking about gun control or white supremacism anymore, are we?
    1. I’m not laughing.
    2. The fact that the topic has been changed only proves my point that the media is complicit.
    3. Everything we have to say about gun control, white supremacism, taxes, gay rights, the economy, and every other issue imaginable has been said over and over and over and over and over again for the past X years (eleven in my case). We are not solving anything here. We have almost all admitted that we almost never change our minds in response to what people on “the other side” say about issues here. We are the equivalent of work pals talking around the water cooler, where “talking” is entertainment, comic relief, venting. What I do to try to mitigate the disasters and downsides of life and the world is not affected much if at all by what happens here (and this is not to “diss” ObWi or the other blogs I check in on). My volunteer work and $ donations have been pretty constant for many years, and insofar as they have changed, they have changed in response to what I see as major issues: immigration, gun control, electing Democrats, supporting children in need.
    4. Still, point taken, and it’s why I have pulled back my level of internet time and involvement….

  492. you laugh, but we’re not talking about gun control or white supremacism anymore, are we?
    1. I’m not laughing.
    2. The fact that the topic has been changed only proves my point that the media is complicit.
    3. Everything we have to say about gun control, white supremacism, taxes, gay rights, the economy, and every other issue imaginable has been said over and over and over and over and over again for the past X years (eleven in my case). We are not solving anything here. We have almost all admitted that we almost never change our minds in response to what people on “the other side” say about issues here. We are the equivalent of work pals talking around the water cooler, where “talking” is entertainment, comic relief, venting. What I do to try to mitigate the disasters and downsides of life and the world is not affected much if at all by what happens here (and this is not to “diss” ObWi or the other blogs I check in on). My volunteer work and $ donations have been pretty constant for many years, and insofar as they have changed, they have changed in response to what I see as major issues: immigration, gun control, electing Democrats, supporting children in need.
    4. Still, point taken, and it’s why I have pulled back my level of internet time and involvement….

  493. Re. Israel: for European, Russian, and North American politicians, domestic anti-Semitism is in no way incompatible with Zionism.
    Rulers want someone other than themselves to blame for troubles at home. Who better than Jewish intelligentsia in the Soviet Union, or Jewish bankers in Germany, and now the USA?
    What they want for Palestine is something different. Stalin wanted a Jewish socialist state which would weaken British influence in the region. Hitler wanted somewhere to send rich Jews, stealing their money as they went. Truman wanted somewhere to send Jewish refugees. The white right today wants a powerful western-leaning state which will oppress muslims.
    Whereas the modern left is sympathetic to the intelligentsia, and sympathetic to Palestinians. So it tends to be neither anti-Semitic nor Zionist. Except for elements in the British Labour Party, which would be a whole new discussion.

  494. Re. Israel: for European, Russian, and North American politicians, domestic anti-Semitism is in no way incompatible with Zionism.
    Rulers want someone other than themselves to blame for troubles at home. Who better than Jewish intelligentsia in the Soviet Union, or Jewish bankers in Germany, and now the USA?
    What they want for Palestine is something different. Stalin wanted a Jewish socialist state which would weaken British influence in the region. Hitler wanted somewhere to send rich Jews, stealing their money as they went. Truman wanted somewhere to send Jewish refugees. The white right today wants a powerful western-leaning state which will oppress muslims.
    Whereas the modern left is sympathetic to the intelligentsia, and sympathetic to Palestinians. So it tends to be neither anti-Semitic nor Zionist. Except for elements in the British Labour Party, which would be a whole new discussion.

  495. Bernard—
    I looked up a couple of things. First, though I knew Buchanan had a predilection for defending Nazi war criminals, I didn’t know he denied what happened at Treblinka. So that was shocking.
    Second, I looked up why TAC was founded. It was founded to oppose the Iraq War and, I think, turn the right towards an anti interventionist direction. I can understand why someone might associate with bad people to stop that. Buchanan would make me ill, however. I probably don’t want to know about Taki. Heard the name.
    Third, I probably haven’t read every piece by Larison over the past several years, but I have probably read hundreds maybe. Not sure. You get a sense of where a person stands on race and I haven’t detected a trace of racism in the man, whatever compromise or rationalization he made with Buchanan. He hits Trump very hard on his racism and there is a gap between him and other TAC regulars. The Confederate thing was not a defense of slavery, which he condemns, but as best I can tell a romantic delusion or unwillingness to face up to the ugliness of the heritage he presumably grew up in. I think it is also tied to his anti interventionism. On the delusion,I knew people like that growing up down South. They weren’t necessarily racist, but they wanted to think their Confederate ancestors fought for something nobler than slavery.
    But I can’t imagine what I would think or feel if I had several family members murdered in genocide, so what I am doing here is explaining why I will continue to read Larison and not trying to argue you into it.
    I had something else to say to somebody. Forgot what it was.

  496. Bernard—
    I looked up a couple of things. First, though I knew Buchanan had a predilection for defending Nazi war criminals, I didn’t know he denied what happened at Treblinka. So that was shocking.
    Second, I looked up why TAC was founded. It was founded to oppose the Iraq War and, I think, turn the right towards an anti interventionist direction. I can understand why someone might associate with bad people to stop that. Buchanan would make me ill, however. I probably don’t want to know about Taki. Heard the name.
    Third, I probably haven’t read every piece by Larison over the past several years, but I have probably read hundreds maybe. Not sure. You get a sense of where a person stands on race and I haven’t detected a trace of racism in the man, whatever compromise or rationalization he made with Buchanan. He hits Trump very hard on his racism and there is a gap between him and other TAC regulars. The Confederate thing was not a defense of slavery, which he condemns, but as best I can tell a romantic delusion or unwillingness to face up to the ugliness of the heritage he presumably grew up in. I think it is also tied to his anti interventionism. On the delusion,I knew people like that growing up down South. They weren’t necessarily racist, but they wanted to think their Confederate ancestors fought for something nobler than slavery.
    But I can’t imagine what I would think or feel if I had several family members murdered in genocide, so what I am doing here is explaining why I will continue to read Larison and not trying to argue you into it.
    I had something else to say to somebody. Forgot what it was.

  497. I had something else to say to somebody. Forgot what it was.
    I’m pretty sure you were going to express your great admiration for me.

  498. I had something else to say to somebody. Forgot what it was.
    I’m pretty sure you were going to express your great admiration for me.

  499. Bobbyp—
    You keep linking to Kirchik. I thought that second article was a mess. I don’t support or sympathize with Putin, but I don’t think the tensions we have are entirely Russia’s fault either. If Larison says that, then it is another example where his views overlap with some on the far left.
    But I have to watch it, as I don’t want to get into too many arguments at once.

  500. Bobbyp—
    You keep linking to Kirchik. I thought that second article was a mess. I don’t support or sympathize with Putin, but I don’t think the tensions we have are entirely Russia’s fault either. If Larison says that, then it is another example where his views overlap with some on the far left.
    But I have to watch it, as I don’t want to get into too many arguments at once.

  501. The white right today wants a powerful western-leaning state which will oppress muslims.
    PB, at least in the US, the “white right” includes a substantial segment of white evangelicals. Whose religion tells them that the Second Coming is predicated on Jews controlling the land that is now Israel — including the West Bank.
    Their support for Israel, and the more far right Israelis, stems overwhelmingly, from that premise. It’s utterly indifferent to the fate of Muslims, there or elsewhere.

  502. The white right today wants a powerful western-leaning state which will oppress muslims.
    PB, at least in the US, the “white right” includes a substantial segment of white evangelicals. Whose religion tells them that the Second Coming is predicated on Jews controlling the land that is now Israel — including the West Bank.
    Their support for Israel, and the more far right Israelis, stems overwhelmingly, from that premise. It’s utterly indifferent to the fate of Muslims, there or elsewhere.

  503. Speaking of headlines AND gun control:

    Trump Vows to ‘Uphold the Second Amendment’ During New Hampshire Rally: ‘Not the Gun that Pulls the Trigger’

    https://www.newsweek.com/trump-vows-uphold-second-amendment-during-new-hampshire-rally-not-gun-that-pulls-trigger-1454656
    Leaving aside the idiocy of what he is quoted as saying within the article about mentally ill people, what the hell is “not the gun that pulls the trigger” supposed to mean? Are there lots people who think guns go around of their own volition shooting people? Is he concerned about hurting the feelings of all those poor, innocent guns?

  504. Speaking of headlines AND gun control:

    Trump Vows to ‘Uphold the Second Amendment’ During New Hampshire Rally: ‘Not the Gun that Pulls the Trigger’

    https://www.newsweek.com/trump-vows-uphold-second-amendment-during-new-hampshire-rally-not-gun-that-pulls-trigger-1454656
    Leaving aside the idiocy of what he is quoted as saying within the article about mentally ill people, what the hell is “not the gun that pulls the trigger” supposed to mean? Are there lots people who think guns go around of their own volition shooting people? Is he concerned about hurting the feelings of all those poor, innocent guns?

  505. If Larison says that, then it is another example where his views overlap with some on the far left.
    Not saying they don’t “overlap” (I’d use another term, but that’s me)….I am asking whence they came from and why. Why would otherwise right wing conservatives suddenly do a 180 on US foreign policy and basically condemn an approach they had steadfastly supported for decades?
    I get the impression that the culture wars play a much larger role here than you are apparently willing to concede.
    My beef with Larison goes to his basic world view, you know, that conservative thing. So I would aver he has some ideological linkage of that basic viewpoint with his foreign policy writings. This does not make those opinions “bad”, but it makes me very suspicious.
    PS: I have great admiration for hsh as he consistently corrects my mistakes with grace and aplomb. Obviously, he has no place being on the internets.

  506. If Larison says that, then it is another example where his views overlap with some on the far left.
    Not saying they don’t “overlap” (I’d use another term, but that’s me)….I am asking whence they came from and why. Why would otherwise right wing conservatives suddenly do a 180 on US foreign policy and basically condemn an approach they had steadfastly supported for decades?
    I get the impression that the culture wars play a much larger role here than you are apparently willing to concede.
    My beef with Larison goes to his basic world view, you know, that conservative thing. So I would aver he has some ideological linkage of that basic viewpoint with his foreign policy writings. This does not make those opinions “bad”, but it makes me very suspicious.
    PS: I have great admiration for hsh as he consistently corrects my mistakes with grace and aplomb. Obviously, he has no place being on the internets.

  507. Donald,
    Thank you.
    I don’t think there’s anything wrong with reading Larison, but given other evidence, there is something wrong with declaring him a person of good will because you like what he says about foreign policy.
    I don’t want to labor the point about Buchanan, but his opposition to the Iraq War was also not a little tinged with anti-Semitism.

  508. Donald,
    Thank you.
    I don’t think there’s anything wrong with reading Larison, but given other evidence, there is something wrong with declaring him a person of good will because you like what he says about foreign policy.
    I don’t want to labor the point about Buchanan, but his opposition to the Iraq War was also not a little tinged with anti-Semitism.

  509. All I have to say is that, as a metaphor for “damn it, I’m voting for whoever”, the waffles-as-underpants thing beats my ham sandwich.
    Hands down.
    Also, Buchanan is and pretty much always has been a nasty piece of work.

  510. All I have to say is that, as a metaphor for “damn it, I’m voting for whoever”, the waffles-as-underpants thing beats my ham sandwich.
    Hands down.
    Also, Buchanan is and pretty much always has been a nasty piece of work.

  513. criticism of Israel/zionism => reveals one’s deep antisemitism.
    criticism of US foreign policy and a willingness to “see” the Russian side of things => conclusively shows you are Putin’s lapdog.
    I find neither of these constructs very useful. Just sayin’.
    Thanks.

  514. criticism of Israel/zionism => reveals one’s deep antisemitism.
    criticism of US foreign policy and a willingness to “see” the Russian side of things => conclusively shows you are Putin’s lapdog.
    I find neither of these constructs very useful. Just sayin’.
    Thanks.

  515. “there is something wrong with declaring him a person of good will because you like what he says about foreign policy.”
    It’s more than that, but I don’t want to beat this to death.
    “What do you think motivates the bipartisan support for Israel among American politicos? “
    Part of it is money— there are people like Adelson and Haim Saban. AIPAC has clout. But I think the deeper reason is culture.
    On the right there are the Christian Zionists which people have talked about. On the left and more generally I think it is guilt and scapegoating and bias against Arabs. Spelling that out, liberals became much more aware of the history of Western antisemitism after WWII, though Peter Novick if I remember correctly says the real interest in the Holocaust and support for Israel started after 67. That war was seen as a glorious success when Vietnam was not.
    Anyway, whenever it started, I think liberals supported Israel as a kind of expiation for what had been done to Jews and critics of Israel had to walk on eggshells so as not to be accused of antisemitism. Most Westerners didn’t know about the Nakba or various Israeli atrocities but Palestinian atrocities like Munich were front page news( of course thanks to the terrorists who thought that sort of publicity was good for the cause).. Plus there was popular culture. I never read or watched Exodus, but that romanticized Israel and what happened in 1948. I did read Michener’s novel The Source which does the same in its modern era chapter. And Arabs made convenient scapegoats. The West might not have done enough to save fleeing Jews from Nazis, but it could side with the Israelis against the backward Arabs, who were all either evil or misled. The Israelis were like us and the Arabs were the bad guys. I think the polls still show more Americans side with Israel over the Palestinians, though this is changing.

  516. “there is something wrong with declaring him a person of good will because you like what he says about foreign policy.”
    It’s more than that, but I don’t want to beat this to death.
    “What do you think motivates the bipartisan support for Israel among American politicos? “
    Part of it is money— there are people like Adelson and Haim Saban. AIPAC has clout. But I think the deeper reason is culture.
    On the right there are the Christian Zionists which people have talked about. On the left and more generally I think it is guilt and scapegoating and bias against Arabs. Spelling that out, liberals became much more aware of the history of Western antisemitism after WWII, though Peter Novick if I remember correctly says the real interest in the Holocaust and support for Israel started after 67. That war was seen as a glorious success when Vietnam was not.
    Anyway, whenever it started, I think liberals supported Israel as a kind of expiation for what had been done to Jews and critics of Israel had to walk on eggshells so as not to be accused of antisemitism. Most Westerners didn’t know about the Nakba or various Israeli atrocities but Palestinian atrocities like Munich were front page news( of course thanks to the terrorists who thought that sort of publicity was good for the cause).. Plus there was popular culture. I never read or watched Exodus, but that romanticized Israel and what happened in 1948. I did read Michener’s novel The Source which does the same in its modern era chapter. And Arabs made convenient scapegoats. The West might not have done enough to save fleeing Jews from Nazis, but it could side with the Israelis against the backward Arabs, who were all either evil or misled. The Israelis were like us and the Arabs were the bad guys. I think the polls still show more Americans side with Israel over the Palestinians, though this is changing.

  517. criticism of US foreign policy and a willingness to “see” the Russian side of things => conclusively shows you are Putin’s lapdog.
    if you say so.
    i see a lot of criticism of US foreign policy / seeing Russia’s side of things that more like both-siderism or keeping-my-own-beautiful-hands-clean pox-on-both-their-houses-ism. neither of which accomplish much, IMO.
    after a while i start thinking “OK. the US sucks, all the time, everywhere. yeah, we get it. now can we get back to trying to evict the lunatic in the WH?”

  518. criticism of US foreign policy and a willingness to “see” the Russian side of things => conclusively shows you are Putin’s lapdog.
    if you say so.
    i see a lot of criticism of US foreign policy / seeing Russia’s side of things that more like both-siderism or keeping-my-own-beautiful-hands-clean pox-on-both-their-houses-ism. neither of which accomplish much, IMO.
    after a while i start thinking “OK. the US sucks, all the time, everywhere. yeah, we get it. now can we get back to trying to evict the lunatic in the WH?”

  519. “My beef with Larison goes to his basic world view, you know, that conservative thing. So I would aver he has some ideological linkage of that basic viewpoint with his foreign policy writings.”
    His critique of US policy is based on two things—
    1. Humanitarianism. Our support for unjust wars, terrorist groups, and harsh sanctions hurt or kill innocent people, sometimes on the theory that the suffering will put pressure on the government to change or even overthrow it. This is immoral and also, it usually doesn’t work.
    I don’t care if the person making this type of argument calls himself a conservative or a liberal. The argument is correct. I am not always sure that the policy of induced suffering never works, but it is generally immoral.
    2. He says that the support for allies like the Saudis in their war in Yemen, aside from being immoral ( his central point) does not serve American interests. I think this is right too, in the long run, but am not sure the country as a whole has some unique set of interests. Weapons manufacturers to take an obvious example might have an interest in more wars and more threats. But for most of us I think he is right.

  520. “My beef with Larison goes to his basic world view, you know, that conservative thing. So I would aver he has some ideological linkage of that basic viewpoint with his foreign policy writings.”
    His critique of US policy is based on two things—
    1. Humanitarianism. Our support for unjust wars, terrorist groups, and harsh sanctions hurt or kill innocent people, sometimes on the theory that the suffering will put pressure on the government to change or even overthrow it. This is immoral and also, it usually doesn’t work.
    I don’t care if the person making this type of argument calls himself a conservative or a liberal. The argument is correct. I am not always sure that the policy of induced suffering never works, but it is generally immoral.
    2. He says that the support for allies like the Saudis in their war in Yemen, aside from being immoral ( his central point) does not serve American interests. I think this is right too, in the long run, but am not sure the country as a whole has some unique set of interests. Weapons manufacturers to take an obvious example might have an interest in more wars and more threats. But for most of us I think he is right.

  521. p described: Emily Dickinson
    “I’m Nobody! Who are you?
    Are you – Nobody – too?
    Then there’s a pair of us!
    Don’t tell! they’d advertise – you know!
    How dreary – to be – Somebody!
    How public – like a Frog –
    To tell one’s name – the livelong June –
    To an admiring Bog!”
    And H.L Mencken on p:
    “Advertising is the rattling of a stick inside a swill bucket.”
    P. T. Barnum:
    “This way to the egress.”
    Also Hitler randomly quoting from “My New Order”

  522. p described: Emily Dickinson
    “I’m Nobody! Who are you?
    Are you – Nobody – too?
    Then there’s a pair of us!
    Don’t tell! they’d advertise – you know!
    How dreary – to be – Somebody!
    How public – like a Frog –
    To tell one’s name – the livelong June –
    To an admiring Bog!”
    And H.L Mencken on p:
    “Advertising is the rattling of a stick inside a swill bucket.”
    P. T. Barnum:
    “This way to the egress.”
    Also Hitler randomly quoting from “My New Order”

  523. p described: Emily Dickinson
    “I’m Nobody! Who are you?
    Are you – Nobody – too?
    Then there’s a pair of us!
    Don’t tell! they’d advertise – you know!
    How dreary – to be – Somebody!
    How public – like a Frog –
    To tell one’s name – the livelong June –
    To an admiring Bog!”
    And H.L Mencken on p:
    “Advertising is the rattling of a stick inside a swill bucket.”
    P. T. Barnum:
    “This way to the egress.”
    Also Hitler randomly quoting from “My New Order”

  524. p described: Emily Dickinson
    “I’m Nobody! Who are you?
    Are you – Nobody – too?
    Then there’s a pair of us!
    Don’t tell! they’d advertise – you know!
    How dreary – to be – Somebody!
    How public – like a Frog –
    To tell one’s name – the livelong June –
    To an admiring Bog!”
    And H.L Mencken on p:
    “Advertising is the rattling of a stick inside a swill bucket.”
    P. T. Barnum:
    “This way to the egress.”
    Also Hitler randomly quoting from “My New Order”

  525. Hey, once you start thinking along Larison’s lines for overseas military involvement, next thing you know you’re asking why the US needs 8,000 main battle tanks, 2,600 (planned) F-35s, 50 nuclear-powered fast attack subs, and 12 carrier battle groups.

  526. Hey, once you start thinking along Larison’s lines for overseas military involvement, next thing you know you’re asking why the US needs 8,000 main battle tanks, 2,600 (planned) F-35s, 50 nuclear-powered fast attack subs, and 12 carrier battle groups.

  527. Netanyahu ought to have those cufflinks p gave him appraised:
    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/weekly-standard/trump-has-given-fake-diamond-cufflinks-to-charlie-sheen-roy-cohn-and
    p is pure reptilian EVIL.
    He is an anti-Semite.
    Yet, like the anti-Semitic Christian royalty of past epochs, he locates the one ruthless individual to serve as his Court Jew to do his bidding and his screwing over for him: the despicable Roy Cohn, who ruined Jewish lives, among many others, during the rancid McCarthy era.
    The worldwide conservative orthodox movement, in every country, opens its inner circle to the most ruthless, murderous filth from all religions, races, genders, and nationalist persuasions, the only qualifications being unquestioned loyalty to the movement as it prosecutes, persecutes, and murders its enemies, and psychopathic reptilian ruthlessness in making its enemies … everyone but them … suffer.
    Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Pol Pot were all Orthodox and stood athwart, like all ruthless conservatives.
    Just because p gives you the worthless bling, either jewelry or tax cuts, as reward for your inferior ruthlessness, however, doesn’t mean you are spared p’s contempt, not does it mean you will be accorded empathy and spared in the coming worldwide, butchering termination of the conservative movement by decent human beings of all walks of life.

  528. Netanyahu ought to have those cufflinks p gave him appraised:
    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/weekly-standard/trump-has-given-fake-diamond-cufflinks-to-charlie-sheen-roy-cohn-and
    p is pure reptilian EVIL.
    He is an anti-Semite.
    Yet, like the anti-Semitic Christian royalty of past epochs, he locates the one ruthless individual to serve as his Court Jew to do his bidding and his screwing over for him: the despicable Roy Cohn, who ruined Jewish lives, among many others, during the rancid McCarthy era.
    The worldwide conservative orthodox movement, in every country, opens its inner circle to the most ruthless, murderous filth from all religions, races, genders, and nationalist persuasions, the only qualifications being unquestioned loyalty to the movement as it prosecutes, persecutes, and murders its enemies, and psychopathic reptilian ruthlessness in making its enemies … everyone but them … suffer.
    Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Pol Pot were all Orthodox and stood athwart, like all ruthless conservatives.
    Just because p gives you the worthless bling, either jewelry or tax cuts, as reward for your inferior ruthlessness, however, doesn’t mean you are spared p’s contempt, not does it mean you will be accorded empathy and spared in the coming worldwide, butchering termination of the conservative movement by decent human beings of all walks of life.

  529. The main battle tanks do seem a bit problematic. It’s hard to come up with a scenario for the future (as opposed to refighting WW II) which would require a tenth that number. Anybody who would require more tanks to beat has weapons big enough and bad enough to render tank battles irrelevant.

  530. The main battle tanks do seem a bit problematic. It’s hard to come up with a scenario for the future (as opposed to refighting WW II) which would require a tenth that number. Anybody who would require more tanks to beat has weapons big enough and bad enough to render tank battles irrelevant.

  531. Conservative national Modi of India’s government should be violently and savagely overthrown by the Indian masses.
    https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/
    Get the dominoes falling and let p and putin watch the preview of their fates as violence against the worldwide conservative nationalist orthodox rushes toward them and their governments like a California wildfire.

  532. Conservative national Modi of India’s government should be violently and savagely overthrown by the Indian masses.
    https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/
    Get the dominoes falling and let p and putin watch the preview of their fates as violence against the worldwide conservative nationalist orthodox rushes toward them and their governments like a California wildfire.

  533. He says that the support for allies like the Saudis in their war in Yemen, aside from being immoral ( his central point) does not serve American interests.
    I’d say American support for the Saudis has been extraordinarily in the interest of some Americans.
    Aramco is the most profitable corporation on the planet.
    All of which may, in fact, more or less align with Larison’s point. But “American” interests include both the interests that Larison speaks for, and interests who think our pals the Saudis are the greatest thing since sliced bread.
    Folks have different understandings of what “American interests” are.

  534. He says that the support for allies like the Saudis in their war in Yemen, aside from being immoral ( his central point) does not serve American interests.
    I’d say American support for the Saudis has been extraordinarily in the interest of some Americans.
    Aramco is the most profitable corporation on the planet.
    All of which may, in fact, more or less align with Larison’s point. But “American” interests include both the interests that Larison speaks for, and interests who think our pals the Saudis are the greatest thing since sliced bread.
    Folks have different understandings of what “American interests” are.

  535. Why is McConnell once again refusing all discussion, let alone legislation on reducing gun violence:
    “Whitehouse is one of five senators (the others are Sens. Mazie Hirono (D-HI), Richard Blumenthal (D-CT), Dick Durbin (D-IL), and Kirsten Gillibrand (D-NY)) who filed a brief earlier this week in a Second Amendment case the Supreme Court’s Republican majority could use to dismantle what remains of America’s gun regulations. Whitehouse is also the lead (and only) counsel on the brief.
    The brief itself is less a legal document than a declaration of war. Though parts of it argue that the high court lacks jurisdiction over this case, New York State Rifle & Pistol Association v. City of New York, the thrust of the brief is that the Supreme Court is dominated by political hacks selected by the Federalist Society, and promoted by the National Rifle Association — and that if those hacks don’t watch out, the American people are going to rebel against them.”
    Via LGM
    Well, because, Merrick Garland.
    There will be no gun laws left in this country.
    Which, to my mind, provides the tools for slaughtering the conservative movement, so there is always an upside.
    Not one threatening person with a semi-automatic weapon.
    EVERYONE!
    They kill US if they could.

  536. Why is McConnell once again refusing all discussion, let alone legislation on reducing gun violence:
    “Whitehouse is one of five senators (the others are Sens. Mazie Hirono (D-HI), Richard Blumenthal (D-CT), Dick Durbin (D-IL), and Kirsten Gillibrand (D-NY)) who filed a brief earlier this week in a Second Amendment case the Supreme Court’s Republican majority could use to dismantle what remains of America’s gun regulations. Whitehouse is also the lead (and only) counsel on the brief.
    The brief itself is less a legal document than a declaration of war. Though parts of it argue that the high court lacks jurisdiction over this case, New York State Rifle & Pistol Association v. City of New York, the thrust of the brief is that the Supreme Court is dominated by political hacks selected by the Federalist Society, and promoted by the National Rifle Association — and that if those hacks don’t watch out, the American people are going to rebel against them.”
    Via LGM
    Well, because, Merrick Garland.
    There will be no gun laws left in this country.
    Which, to my mind, provides the tools for slaughtering the conservative movement, so there is always an upside.
    Not one threatening person with a semi-automatic weapon.
    EVERYONE!
    They kill US if they could.

  537. They weren’t necessarily racist, but they wanted to think their Confederate ancestors fought for something nobler than slavery.
    Those ancestors, including the ones who had never and would never own slaves, were well aware of what had happened in Haiti. They lived in fear that, if the slaves revolted or were freed, they would shortly be dead in the most horrible ways imaginable. And it didn’t help that the radical wing of the abolition movement was calling for the slaves to rise up and kill their masters.

  538. They weren’t necessarily racist, but they wanted to think their Confederate ancestors fought for something nobler than slavery.
    Those ancestors, including the ones who had never and would never own slaves, were well aware of what had happened in Haiti. They lived in fear that, if the slaves revolted or were freed, they would shortly be dead in the most horrible ways imaginable. And it didn’t help that the radical wing of the abolition movement was calling for the slaves to rise up and kill their masters.

  539. Are there lots people who think guns go around of their own volition shooting people?
    You would think so from reading some of the police reports on collateral damage in the aftermath of one of their raids gone wrong: “The gun Officer Smole was holding went off striking little Amy in the head.”

  540. Are there lots people who think guns go around of their own volition shooting people?
    You would think so from reading some of the police reports on collateral damage in the aftermath of one of their raids gone wrong: “The gun Officer Smole was holding went off striking little Amy in the head.”

  541. I have to wonder: Why? Why would we want it?
    The US offered to buy Greenland in 1946 to put an airbase there. But the Danes opted to keep it but allowed Thule Air Base to be built.

  542. I have to wonder: Why? Why would we want it?
    The US offered to buy Greenland in 1946 to put an airbase there. But the Danes opted to keep it but allowed Thule Air Base to be built.

  543. The main battle tanks do seem a bit problematic. It’s hard to come up with a scenario for the future (as opposed to refighting WW II) which would require a tenth that number.
    The Army does love the idea of free-flowing tank battles across open spaces. If not in real life, then in practice. Colorado spent years fighting off the Army’s attempts (all post 2003) to take 6.9M acres, an area a bit bigger than the state of Massachusetts, by eminent domain and repurposing a national grasslands, to use as a tank playground maneuver area.

  544. The main battle tanks do seem a bit problematic. It’s hard to come up with a scenario for the future (as opposed to refighting WW II) which would require a tenth that number.
    The Army does love the idea of free-flowing tank battles across open spaces. If not in real life, then in practice. Colorado spent years fighting off the Army’s attempts (all post 2003) to take 6.9M acres, an area a bit bigger than the state of Massachusetts, by eminent domain and repurposing a national grasslands, to use as a tank playground maneuver area.

  545. One would hope that the Army would, eventually, allow today’s cavalry (tanks) to go the way of yesterday’s cavalry (horses). A few, perhaps, kept for ceremonial purposes. But their utility in battle understood to be a thing of the past, not the present — let alone the future.
    The sooner “eventually” arrives, the better.

  546. One would hope that the Army would, eventually, allow today’s cavalry (tanks) to go the way of yesterday’s cavalry (horses). A few, perhaps, kept for ceremonial purposes. But their utility in battle understood to be a thing of the past, not the present — let alone the future.
    The sooner “eventually” arrives, the better.

  547. Thanks Nigel. Donald.
    I’m glad to have shared the songs GftNC, thanks. Human beings only regularly agree on the most noble of aspirations. Being human makes us all fall short of those.
    Jackson Browne also wrote: “dont confront me with my failures, I have not forgotten them”.
    Thank you for not reminding me of mine.

  548. Thanks Nigel. Donald.
    I’m glad to have shared the songs GftNC, thanks. Human beings only regularly agree on the most noble of aspirations. Being human makes us all fall short of those.
    Jackson Browne also wrote: “dont confront me with my failures, I have not forgotten them”.
    Thank you for not reminding me of mine.

  553. weird that someone so worried about the coarsening and perversion of our culture would be worried that Trump would lose.

  554. weird that someone so worried about the coarsening and perversion of our culture would be worried that Trump would lose.

  555. These days I sit and think a lot
    about the things that I forgot to do
    And all the times I had the chance to

  556. These days I sit and think a lot
    about the things that I forgot to do
    And all the times I had the chance to

  559. Don’t confront me with my failures
    I had not forgotten them
    Another song I was unfamiliar with (it’s surprising how little Jackson Browne I knew, given that his stuff is just my cup of tea).
    But seriously, these two lines are (and have been lo these many years) my personal interior monologue to a startling extent, and believe me, not in a good way.

  560. Don’t confront me with my failures
    I had not forgotten them
    Another song I was unfamiliar with (it’s surprising how little Jackson Browne I knew, given that his stuff is just my cup of tea).
    But seriously, these two lines are (and have been lo these many years) my personal interior monologue to a startling extent, and believe me, not in a good way.

  561. Great stuff russell. Jackson Browne has an incredible body of work, his first 4 or 5 albums reflected the loss of innocence of the Woodstock generation through the early 70’s.
    He was at once a voice of our dreams, and our failure to realize them.

  562. Great stuff russell. Jackson Browne has an incredible body of work, his first 4 or 5 albums reflected the loss of innocence of the Woodstock generation through the early 70’s.
    He was at once a voice of our dreams, and our failure to realize them.

  569. Hmmm, he was having an affair with Nico when he was 17, much to the frustration of Leonard Cohen, who was madly infatuated with her at the time (“I lit a thin green candle”), when she told him she was only interested in pretty boys, slapped him when he kissed her, and presumably only added to the insecurity about his looks expressed in the Cohen song “Chelsea Hotel” about Janis Joplin:

    I remember you well in the Chelsea Hotel
    You were famous, your heart was a legend
    You told me again you preferred handsome men
    But for me you would make an exception
    And clenching your fist for the ones like us
    Who are oppressed by the figures of beauty
    You fixed yourself, you said, “Well never mind,
    We are ugly but we have the music”

  570. Hmmm, he was having an affair with Nico when he was 17, much to the frustration of Leonard Cohen, who was madly infatuated with her at the time (“I lit a thin green candle”), when she told him she was only interested in pretty boys, slapped him when he kissed her, and presumably only added to the insecurity about his looks expressed in the Cohen song “Chelsea Hotel” about Janis Joplin:

    I remember you well in the Chelsea Hotel
    You were famous, your heart was a legend
    You told me again you preferred handsome men
    But for me you would make an exception
    And clenching your fist for the ones like us
    Who are oppressed by the figures of beauty
    You fixed yourself, you said, “Well never mind,
    We are ugly but we have the music”

  571. We are ugly but we have the music
    It is really tragic how many people cannot see the enormous grey area between beautiful and ugly. Even though over 95% of us fall in there somewhere.
    A lot of pain could be avoided if our culture could acknowledge that. (Admittedly a disaster for the beauty products industry. But worth it.)

  572. We are ugly but we have the music
    It is really tragic how many people cannot see the enormous grey area between beautiful and ugly. Even though over 95% of us fall in there somewhere.
    A lot of pain could be avoided if our culture could acknowledge that. (Admittedly a disaster for the beauty products industry. But worth it.)

  573. Who is this “militantly progressive black woman” running for the Democratic nomination ?
    I know there are an awful lot of candidates running, but I’m pretty sure I’m familiar with most of them.
    And where the eff does Dreher get off calling anyone ‘preachy’ ?

  574. Who is this “militantly progressive black woman” running for the Democratic nomination ?
    I know there are an awful lot of candidates running, but I’m pretty sure I’m familiar with most of them.
    And where the eff does Dreher get off calling anyone ‘preachy’ ?

  575. I completely agree, wj. Personally, I thought Leonard Cohen rather beautiful, and clearly many thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of other women did too, so to learn of his own assessment of his looks is very sad, particularly since he was extremely obsessed with beauty, and ascribed an almost moral dimension and value to it (a ridiculous and antique notion). I hope that such ideas are now rarer (it is certainly rarer to hear them articulated), but I have my doubts, and the reactionary swing in the public sphere would tend to support a return to such harmful concepts, particularly about women (which group this kind of thing usually most impacted in the past).

  576. I completely agree, wj. Personally, I thought Leonard Cohen rather beautiful, and clearly many thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of other women did too, so to learn of his own assessment of his looks is very sad, particularly since he was extremely obsessed with beauty, and ascribed an almost moral dimension and value to it (a ridiculous and antique notion). I hope that such ideas are now rarer (it is certainly rarer to hear them articulated), but I have my doubts, and the reactionary swing in the public sphere would tend to support a return to such harmful concepts, particularly about women (which group this kind of thing usually most impacted in the past).

  579. Who is this “militantly progressive black woman” running for the Democratic nomination ?
    I know there are an awful lot of candidates running, but I’m pretty sure I’m familiar with most of them.
    Well see, there’s your problem: you are familiar with them. So naturally you can’t match a description based on ignorance, stereotypes, and misinformation.
    You may be aware that Harris** isn’t especially progressive, let alone “militantly” progressive. But for those unimpeded by actual knowledge, a black woman politician simply must be a militant progressive. What her track record in office shows simply doesn’t come into it.
    Hope that helps.
    ** Pretty well has to be Harris, since Warren obviously isn’t black. Well, Harris doesn’t look particularly black either. But she’s got the label.

  580. Who is this “militantly progressive black woman” running for the Democratic nomination ?
    I know there are an awful lot of candidates running, but I’m pretty sure I’m familiar with most of them.
    Well see, there’s your problem: you are familiar with them. So naturally you can’t match a description based on ignorance, stereotypes, and misinformation.
    You may be aware that Harris** isn’t especially progressive, let alone “militantly” progressive. But for those unimpeded by actual knowledge, a black woman politician simply must be a militant progressive. What her track record in office shows simply doesn’t come into it.
    Hope that helps.
    ** Pretty well has to be Harris, since Warren obviously isn’t black. Well, Harris doesn’t look particularly black either. But she’s got the label.

  581. “Who is this “militantly progressive black woman” running for the Democratic nomination ?”
    He probably means Kamala Harris. Dreher and most conservatives see everyone to the left of Joe Biden as militantly progressive, plus she is black and a woman.

  582. “Who is this “militantly progressive black woman” running for the Democratic nomination ?”
    He probably means Kamala Harris. Dreher and most conservatives see everyone to the left of Joe Biden as militantly progressive, plus she is black and a woman.

  585. WJ and I gave the same answer simultaneously. I could do the great minds thing, but in this case it’s because it is an obvious fact about how many conservatives see the left. Probably leftists have trouble categorizing differences amongst people on the right.
    The funny thing is that Dreher wrote several years ago, based on a claim by Jonathan Haidt, that conservatives understand liberals better than the other way around. I seriously doubt this, based on Dreher’s own writing and what I see in some of his commenters.

  586. WJ and I gave the same answer simultaneously. I could do the great minds thing, but in this case it’s because it is an obvious fact about how many conservatives see the left. Probably leftists have trouble categorizing differences amongst people on the right.
    The funny thing is that Dreher wrote several years ago, based on a claim by Jonathan Haidt, that conservatives understand liberals better than the other way around. I seriously doubt this, based on Dreher’s own writing and what I see in some of his commenters.

  593. We are ugly but we have the music
    Somewhere there is a recording of Cohen introducing a song on one of his last live shows, where he kind of walks through the stages of his life.
    I’ll try to paraphrase. Apologies if I’ve shared this, like, 7,423 times already.
    When you’re young, he says, you’re kind of irresistable.
    Then, you are resistable.
    Then, you kind of repulsive.
    Then, you are invisible.
    Then, finally, if you stick around long enough, you are kind of cute again.
    Cohen, like Kafka, is unfortunately grossly underappreciated for his sense of humor.

  594. We are ugly but we have the music
    Somewhere there is a recording of Cohen introducing a song on one of his last live shows, where he kind of walks through the stages of his life.
    I’ll try to paraphrase. Apologies if I’ve shared this, like, 7,423 times already.
    When you’re young, he says, you’re kind of irresistable.
    Then, you are resistable.
    Then, you kind of repulsive.
    Then, you are invisible.
    Then, finally, if you stick around long enough, you are kind of cute again.
    Cohen, like Kafka, is unfortunately grossly underappreciated for his sense of humor.

  595. Yup, I saw two of his late shows, and I remember that. And he must have known he was irresistible in a way, because there is plenty of documentary evidence of women coming on to him. But nonetheless, he was obsessed with Nico, and she rejected him without hesitation for gorgeous young boys like Jackson Browne. It’s also possible he suffered from a weird condition that afflicts some Jewish men: an obsession with nordic-type blondes (e.g. Marianne, Nico). Whatever the truth, and although I agree he had a considerable sense of humour (“I was born with the gift of a golden voice” – he thought this was a joke, although many of us loved his voice) I think there is little doubt he did not think he was good to look on.

  596. Yup, I saw two of his late shows, and I remember that. And he must have known he was irresistible in a way, because there is plenty of documentary evidence of women coming on to him. But nonetheless, he was obsessed with Nico, and she rejected him without hesitation for gorgeous young boys like Jackson Browne. It’s also possible he suffered from a weird condition that afflicts some Jewish men: an obsession with nordic-type blondes (e.g. Marianne, Nico). Whatever the truth, and although I agree he had a considerable sense of humour (“I was born with the gift of a golden voice” – he thought this was a joke, although many of us loved his voice) I think there is little doubt he did not think he was good to look on.

  599. This rings true:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/08/ben-howe-evangelical-christians-support-trump/596308/
    In the minds of a lot of conservatives, the left exists to impugn their motives, and the Republican Party regularly lied to them and said they would defend them and then didn’t. And that was the establishment. Trump became their hero, because he hated the establishment, and he beat up on the media, and he was fighting back against all these forces. The more he fights, the more they feel justified, like, He’s our hero because we needed someone to do this for us.
    Trump’s appeal is not judges. It’s not policies. It’s that he’s a shit-talker and a fighter and tells it like it is. That’s what they like. They love the meanest parts of him…
    The whole interview comes from a place very, very far from where I am at, but it is interesting throughout.

  600. This rings true:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/08/ben-howe-evangelical-christians-support-trump/596308/
    In the minds of a lot of conservatives, the left exists to impugn their motives, and the Republican Party regularly lied to them and said they would defend them and then didn’t. And that was the establishment. Trump became their hero, because he hated the establishment, and he beat up on the media, and he was fighting back against all these forces. The more he fights, the more they feel justified, like, He’s our hero because we needed someone to do this for us.
    Trump’s appeal is not judges. It’s not policies. It’s that he’s a shit-talker and a fighter and tells it like it is. That’s what they like. They love the meanest parts of him…
    The whole interview comes from a place very, very far from where I am at, but it is interesting throughout.

  605. If Howe is the guy I think I’m remembering from my RedState days, he’s a pretty good guy.
    I completely agree that the culture war thing is not productive. I even get why many evangelicals think other people look down on them, because a lot of people do, to a greater or lesser degree.
    That said, evangelicals generally think people who don’t share their values are going to hell, and are quite often fine with making things they disapprove of for reasons of religious conscience illegal.
    Which us… problematic for the rest of us. And makes compromise difficult.
    But yes, all of the things that make it impossible for Trump to be anything but a divisive and polarizing figure seem to be exactly what his supporters love about him.
    You can flip the bird to your neighbors, and to the world, but it’s hard to walk that back.

  606. If Howe is the guy I think I’m remembering from my RedState days, he’s a pretty good guy.
    I completely agree that the culture war thing is not productive. I even get why many evangelicals think other people look down on them, because a lot of people do, to a greater or lesser degree.
    That said, evangelicals generally think people who don’t share their values are going to hell, and are quite often fine with making things they disapprove of for reasons of religious conscience illegal.
    Which us… problematic for the rest of us. And makes compromise difficult.
    But yes, all of the things that make it impossible for Trump to be anything but a divisive and polarizing figure seem to be exactly what his supporters love about him.
    You can flip the bird to your neighbors, and to the world, but it’s hard to walk that back.

  607. I suppose it comes down to this. (White; I know less about black) evangelicals are mostly focused on the Old Testament. (To be fair, the same seems to be true of other fundamentalist Christians as well.) When it conflicts with Jesus’ teachings, they ignore the unequivocal words of their messiah in favor of the older teachings.
    Needless to say, they will vehemently deny it. But for most purposes, they simply are not Christians at all. There is a joke that Orthodox Jews refer to Reform Jews as “Episcopalians”. Like most jokes, there’s something there at the core. I’d say that, while they aren’t Christians, their behavior is closer to Christ’s teachings than that of the evangelicals.

  608. I suppose it comes down to this. (White; I know less about black) evangelicals are mostly focused on the Old Testament. (To be fair, the same seems to be true of other fundamentalist Christians as well.) When it conflicts with Jesus’ teachings, they ignore the unequivocal words of their messiah in favor of the older teachings.
    Needless to say, they will vehemently deny it. But for most purposes, they simply are not Christians at all. There is a joke that Orthodox Jews refer to Reform Jews as “Episcopalians”. Like most jokes, there’s something there at the core. I’d say that, while they aren’t Christians, their behavior is closer to Christ’s teachings than that of the evangelicals.

  609. i’ll accept that Dreher et al have made a bargain with themselves that they will support Trump because they think the alternative is worse.
    but the problem i have is that their panic and despondency about the alternative has been manufactured for them. they’re cowering in fear of a Fox News caricature of what the left wants. and the conservative fear machine keeps them panicked and donating and voting R. it’s the same mechanism that gives us our insane gun situation, actually.
    it’s surreal, reading what they think the left is up to.

  610. i’ll accept that Dreher et al have made a bargain with themselves that they will support Trump because they think the alternative is worse.
    but the problem i have is that their panic and despondency about the alternative has been manufactured for them. they’re cowering in fear of a Fox News caricature of what the left wants. and the conservative fear machine keeps them panicked and donating and voting R. it’s the same mechanism that gives us our insane gun situation, actually.
    it’s surreal, reading what they think the left is up to.

  613. Evangelicals are a mix, like every other group. For some of them, the prospect of the rest of the world going to hell seems like part of the attraction. But a lot of them are just trying to do their best, like everybody else.
    To some degree, the whole “we have the absolute truth” thing ends up being kind of a trap. It’s hard to have an open mind if you think you’re going to go to hell if you get something wrong.
    As a current member and active participant in a UU community, I can also tell you that liberal believers can be as judgemental as anybody else. My own church service today featured a sermon that seemed to mostly be about how narrow-minded evangelicals were. There was a good point in there somewhere, but it ended up being kind of… narrow-minded.
    Everybody has flaws.
    What I will say is distinct about evangelicals is their sense of themselves as a beleagured minority, protecting the kingdom of heaven from constant attack. It’s both a terrifying and a self-aggrandizing way to think about your place in the world. People who aren’t like them aren’t just some other kind of people, they are at some level threatening. With the greatest threat being that your own – the believer’s own – faith or faithful practice might be somehow undermined.
    Temptation and danger everywhere. It can be a tough way to live, unless you immerse yourself in a community of like-minded folks. The defensiveness and the reactionary social and political impulse just kinds of comes along with that.
    It presents a challenge to people who don’t share their beliefs. Nobody is really trying to get evangelicals to not be evangelicals, but they nonetheless are threatened by, or at least challenged by, the presence of people who don’t believe or live as they do.
    From my own personal history, I know a lot of people who are at various points along the spectrum from hard-core evangelical, to not so hard core, to self-described “recovering” evangelicals. Most of the folks I know are no longer hard-core, due to life beating their sense of certainty out of them. As it will. Most of them still actively pursue some kind of faith, they’re just less focused on Leviticus now. As it were.
    The millenial-and-younger evangelicals are far less into the whole culture war thing. Long time coming, but that at least is encouraging.

  614. Evangelicals are a mix, like every other group. For some of them, the prospect of the rest of the world going to hell seems like part of the attraction. But a lot of them are just trying to do their best, like everybody else.
    To some degree, the whole “we have the absolute truth” thing ends up being kind of a trap. It’s hard to have an open mind if you think you’re going to go to hell if you get something wrong.
    As a current member and active participant in a UU community, I can also tell you that liberal believers can be as judgemental as anybody else. My own church service today featured a sermon that seemed to mostly be about how narrow-minded evangelicals were. There was a good point in there somewhere, but it ended up being kind of… narrow-minded.
    Everybody has flaws.
    What I will say is distinct about evangelicals is their sense of themselves as a beleagured minority, protecting the kingdom of heaven from constant attack. It’s both a terrifying and a self-aggrandizing way to think about your place in the world. People who aren’t like them aren’t just some other kind of people, they are at some level threatening. With the greatest threat being that your own – the believer’s own – faith or faithful practice might be somehow undermined.
    Temptation and danger everywhere. It can be a tough way to live, unless you immerse yourself in a community of like-minded folks. The defensiveness and the reactionary social and political impulse just kinds of comes along with that.
    It presents a challenge to people who don’t share their beliefs. Nobody is really trying to get evangelicals to not be evangelicals, but they nonetheless are threatened by, or at least challenged by, the presence of people who don’t believe or live as they do.
    From my own personal history, I know a lot of people who are at various points along the spectrum from hard-core evangelical, to not so hard core, to self-described “recovering” evangelicals. Most of the folks I know are no longer hard-core, due to life beating their sense of certainty out of them. As it will. Most of them still actively pursue some kind of faith, they’re just less focused on Leviticus now. As it were.
    The millenial-and-younger evangelicals are far less into the whole culture war thing. Long time coming, but that at least is encouraging.

  615. Just want to point out that not all “evangelicals” are right-wing “evangelicals.”
    Reverend Barber, for example, is an evangelical. He talks about “slaveholder religion” which is what right-wing evangelicals are all about.
    For a brief time, I was a member (and maybe I still am, because I certainly haven’t disassociated, but I don’t go to church) of the United Church of Christ. They are “evangelicals”. In fact, they are often in people’s face about social justice issues (to the left), although not about believing in some form of dogma, which seems to be pretty loosely held thereabouts.
    If right-wing “evangelicals” want to preach social justice issues, they need to be a bit more forthcoming about the theological basis for that. They are insincere, ignorant fools, who are basically pod people. I don’t like them, and I don’t apologize for it. I have to put up with a couple of them for family reasons, and I manage to be polite when it’s necessary. But that completely depends on their willingness to avoid politics, because I’m not going to lie to them.

  616. Just want to point out that not all “evangelicals” are right-wing “evangelicals.”
    Reverend Barber, for example, is an evangelical. He talks about “slaveholder religion” which is what right-wing evangelicals are all about.
    For a brief time, I was a member (and maybe I still am, because I certainly haven’t disassociated, but I don’t go to church) of the United Church of Christ. They are “evangelicals”. In fact, they are often in people’s face about social justice issues (to the left), although not about believing in some form of dogma, which seems to be pretty loosely held thereabouts.
    If right-wing “evangelicals” want to preach social justice issues, they need to be a bit more forthcoming about the theological basis for that. They are insincere, ignorant fools, who are basically pod people. I don’t like them, and I don’t apologize for it. I have to put up with a couple of them for family reasons, and I manage to be polite when it’s necessary. But that completely depends on their willingness to avoid politics, because I’m not going to lie to them.

  617. but the problem i have is that their panic and despondency about the alternative has been manufactured for them. they’re cowering in fear of a Fox News caricature of what the left wants. and the conservative fear machine keeps them panicked and donating and voting R. it’s the same mechanism that gives us our insane gun situation, actually.
    ***
    What I will say is distinct about evangelicals is their sense of themselves as a beleagured minority, protecting the kingdom of heaven from constant attack. It’s both a terrifying and a self-aggrandizing way to think about your place in the world.
    Truer words were rarely spoken. Except here. Words as true as this are quite often spoken here.

  618. but the problem i have is that their panic and despondency about the alternative has been manufactured for them. they’re cowering in fear of a Fox News caricature of what the left wants. and the conservative fear machine keeps them panicked and donating and voting R. it’s the same mechanism that gives us our insane gun situation, actually.
    ***
    What I will say is distinct about evangelicals is their sense of themselves as a beleagured minority, protecting the kingdom of heaven from constant attack. It’s both a terrifying and a self-aggrandizing way to think about your place in the world.
    Truer words were rarely spoken. Except here. Words as true as this are quite often spoken here.

  619. Nobody is really trying to get evangelicals to not be evangelicals, but they nonetheless are threatened by, or at least challenged by, the presence of people who don’t believe or live as they do.
    Granted there’s nobody much deliberately trying to convert the evangelicals in particular. (Of course, they have to put up with Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormon missionaries, just like everybody else.) But that’s not the threat.
    The threat is that alternative views, merely by being visible, will seduce them away from their faith. Or some of them, especially their kids. Which is a huge incentive to keep those alternative views hidden, if they cannot be suppressed altogether.
    To my mind, it reflects a pretty poor opinion of your own beliefs if you think your fellow believers will depart if they are so much as exposed to a different idea. But maybe that’s just me.

  620. Nobody is really trying to get evangelicals to not be evangelicals, but they nonetheless are threatened by, or at least challenged by, the presence of people who don’t believe or live as they do.
    Granted there’s nobody much deliberately trying to convert the evangelicals in particular. (Of course, they have to put up with Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormon missionaries, just like everybody else.) But that’s not the threat.
    The threat is that alternative views, merely by being visible, will seduce them away from their faith. Or some of them, especially their kids. Which is a huge incentive to keep those alternative views hidden, if they cannot be suppressed altogether.
    To my mind, it reflects a pretty poor opinion of your own beliefs if you think your fellow believers will depart if they are so much as exposed to a different idea. But maybe that’s just me.

  621. The threat is that alternative views, merely by being visible, will seduce them away from their faith. Or some of them, especially their kids. Which is a huge incentive to keep those alternative views hidden, if they cannot be suppressed altogether.
    That is called autocracy, not religion.

  622. The threat is that alternative views, merely by being visible, will seduce them away from their faith. Or some of them, especially their kids. Which is a huge incentive to keep those alternative views hidden, if they cannot be suppressed altogether.
    That is called autocracy, not religion.

  625. Certainly some autocracies have a similar fragility in the presence of alternatives.
    Yes, indeed. It’s the same exact thing.

  626. Certainly some autocracies have a similar fragility in the presence of alternatives.
    Yes, indeed. It’s the same exact thing.

  627. Open thread, so I’m just going to jump in out of nowhere.
    New Opeth coming out soon. New Chelsea Wolfe. A bunch of other stuff to look forward to in the world of heavy and dark music. But despite that, I’m playing catch-up.
    There’s always those bands that you hear and know about that you appreciate, but that just don’t click with you at the time. Leprous from Norway were in that status for me since 2011. Then last week I decided to check them out again to see what they had been up to. Been listening to their most recent two albums fairly constantly since.
    Heavy and melancholy. Progressive. Rhythmically complex in a syncopated, jazzy way (not a math metally way). Sound like pretty much no one else on the planet.
    Leprous – Bonneville (youtube)

  628. Open thread, so I’m just going to jump in out of nowhere.
    New Opeth coming out soon. New Chelsea Wolfe. A bunch of other stuff to look forward to in the world of heavy and dark music. But despite that, I’m playing catch-up.
    There’s always those bands that you hear and know about that you appreciate, but that just don’t click with you at the time. Leprous from Norway were in that status for me since 2011. Then last week I decided to check them out again to see what they had been up to. Been listening to their most recent two albums fairly constantly since.
    Heavy and melancholy. Progressive. Rhythmically complex in a syncopated, jazzy way (not a math metally way). Sound like pretty much no one else on the planet.
    Leprous – Bonneville (youtube)

  629. That is called autocracy, not religion.
    I would ask what’s the difference, but I suppose there have been one or two religions that haven’t aimed to rule the world. (Wicca comes to mind.)
    Still, for a lot of the history of the western world the distinction has been blurry, at best. Or what was the “Holy Roman Empire”? What was the Inquisition about? What were the religious wars that followed the Reformation fought over?
    Etc.
    (And no, I’m not going to engage if McKT shows up to whine that I’m picking on Christianity and the West. I speak as someone both sides of whose family were taught that the other side was going to hell. What kind of a vicious thing is that to teach children?)
    To my mind, it reflects a pretty poor opinion of your own beliefs if you think your fellow believers will depart if they are so much as exposed to a different idea. But maybe that’s just me.
    Well, no, it’s that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted. I grew up Catholic. To read my Baptist grandma’s copy of “Hurlbut’s Story of the Bible” was a sin that would have condemned me to hell for all eternity if I hadn’t found out — after I read a lot of it — that I wasn’t supposed to, and had my sins dealt with in the confessional.
    Bah.

  630. That is called autocracy, not religion.
    I would ask what’s the difference, but I suppose there have been one or two religions that haven’t aimed to rule the world. (Wicca comes to mind.)
    Still, for a lot of the history of the western world the distinction has been blurry, at best. Or what was the “Holy Roman Empire”? What was the Inquisition about? What were the religious wars that followed the Reformation fought over?
    Etc.
    (And no, I’m not going to engage if McKT shows up to whine that I’m picking on Christianity and the West. I speak as someone both sides of whose family were taught that the other side was going to hell. What kind of a vicious thing is that to teach children?)
    To my mind, it reflects a pretty poor opinion of your own beliefs if you think your fellow believers will depart if they are so much as exposed to a different idea. But maybe that’s just me.
    Well, no, it’s that ordinary people are too stupid to be trusted. I grew up Catholic. To read my Baptist grandma’s copy of “Hurlbut’s Story of the Bible” was a sin that would have condemned me to hell for all eternity if I hadn’t found out — after I read a lot of it — that I wasn’t supposed to, and had my sins dealt with in the confessional.
    Bah.

  631. Admittedly, extending my response to wj about the “poor opinion of your own beliefs,” it’s a little bit of a different dynamic with denominations that don’t have a hierarchy along the lines of the Catholic Church, where the sainted pedophile protection ring clergy knew best about all things. But it seems to me to be a generalization or relative of the proposition that “the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.” We are weak, we have to be protected from ourselves and each other…..

  632. Admittedly, extending my response to wj about the “poor opinion of your own beliefs,” it’s a little bit of a different dynamic with denominations that don’t have a hierarchy along the lines of the Catholic Church, where the sainted pedophile protection ring clergy knew best about all things. But it seems to me to be a generalization or relative of the proposition that “the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.” We are weak, we have to be protected from ourselves and each other…..

  633. The threat is that alternative views, merely by being visible, will seduce them away from their faith. Or some of them, especially their kids. Which is a huge incentive to keep those alternative views hidden, if they cannot be suppressed altogether.
    Not entirely, wj.
    Evangelicals certainly have an authoritarian streak, so part of the motivation, IMO, is simply not wanting other people to live in ways they disapprove of. This is not entirely because they don’t want their kids exposed. It’s partly because they just don’t want you to do that.

  634. The threat is that alternative views, merely by being visible, will seduce them away from their faith. Or some of them, especially their kids. Which is a huge incentive to keep those alternative views hidden, if they cannot be suppressed altogether.
    Not entirely, wj.
    Evangelicals certainly have an authoritarian streak, so part of the motivation, IMO, is simply not wanting other people to live in ways they disapprove of. This is not entirely because they don’t want their kids exposed. It’s partly because they just don’t want you to do that.

  637. Or why fight so viciously against same-sex marriage? My getting married has *nothing* to do with them. They just don’t want me in the world. Since I’m here, they want me to pretend I’m not.
    Fuck ’em.

  638. Or why fight so viciously against same-sex marriage? My getting married has *nothing* to do with them. They just don’t want me in the world. Since I’m here, they want me to pretend I’m not.
    Fuck ’em.

  639. The Focus on the Family crowd believe that exposing children to homosexuality (and any sort of normalization or mainstreaming of it) will damage a child’s spiritual development and endanger healthy gender formation. Healthy gender formation being a strict binary with females submissive to patriarchal males who are submissive to pastoral and biblical authority. And a subset of them believe that actual demons exploit that damage and use it as a step towards spiritual possession.
    So, yes, pretty much patriarchal authoritarianism, with a side order of Invasion of the Body Snatcher on the pentecostal end.

  640. The Focus on the Family crowd believe that exposing children to homosexuality (and any sort of normalization or mainstreaming of it) will damage a child’s spiritual development and endanger healthy gender formation. Healthy gender formation being a strict binary with females submissive to patriarchal males who are submissive to pastoral and biblical authority. And a subset of them believe that actual demons exploit that damage and use it as a step towards spiritual possession.
    So, yes, pretty much patriarchal authoritarianism, with a side order of Invasion of the Body Snatcher on the pentecostal end.

  641. Or why fight so viciously against same-sex marriage? My getting married has *nothing* to do with them.
    My sense, perhaps incorrect, is they think that people generally, specifically their own children, will find homosexuality irresistably attractive.** So it has to be demonized, lest that happen.
    That is what, in their minds, your marriage has to do with them. Having it allowed makes demonization much more difficult.
    ** If they would accept that homosexuals are gay because God made them that way, it might be different. But because they insist that it’s a choice….

  642. Or why fight so viciously against same-sex marriage? My getting married has *nothing* to do with them.
    My sense, perhaps incorrect, is they think that people generally, specifically their own children, will find homosexuality irresistably attractive.** So it has to be demonized, lest that happen.
    That is what, in their minds, your marriage has to do with them. Having it allowed makes demonization much more difficult.
    ** If they would accept that homosexuals are gay because God made them that way, it might be different. But because they insist that it’s a choice….

  643. I suppose there have been one or two religions that haven’t aimed to rule the world.
    Very successful religions have two things in common. They’re against anything which reduces fecundity, and in favour of government authority.
    These have the effect of gaining government support, and multiplying the religion’s followers.

  644. I suppose there have been one or two religions that haven’t aimed to rule the world.
    Very successful religions have two things in common. They’re against anything which reduces fecundity, and in favour of government authority.
    These have the effect of gaining government support, and multiplying the religion’s followers.

  645. Very successful religions have two things in common. They’re against anything which reduces fecundity, and in favour of government authority.
    And yet there are a number of successful religions which include celibate monastic orders. Which would tend to reduce fecundity, at least to the extent that celibacy was maintained.

  646. Very successful religions have two things in common. They’re against anything which reduces fecundity, and in favour of government authority.
    And yet there are a number of successful religions which include celibate monastic orders. Which would tend to reduce fecundity, at least to the extent that celibacy was maintained.

  647. Concerning temptation there are basically two views. Either getting tempted means that your faith is weak (Satan goes for the easy prey) or that your faith is very strong (Satan goes for the high quality targets*). The latter is used as a favorite excuse by ‘faith leaders’ for getting caught in what they publicly condem, the former is to keep the sheep in line and the hierarchy intact.
    It’s an unresolved question whether those strong in faith should actively seek temptation to train their spiritual immune system and to prove its strength or if it should be avoided at all costs (‘and he that loveth danger shall perish therein’ Eccl.3,26 (or 27 in other editions)).
    Of course the original idea (kept by Jews and Muslims but mostly dropped by Christians) is that G#d Himself is doing the tempting for uneffable reasons of His own.
    *a common trope in legends about popular saints like e.g. St.Anthony.

  648. Concerning temptation there are basically two views. Either getting tempted means that your faith is weak (Satan goes for the easy prey) or that your faith is very strong (Satan goes for the high quality targets*). The latter is used as a favorite excuse by ‘faith leaders’ for getting caught in what they publicly condem, the former is to keep the sheep in line and the hierarchy intact.
    It’s an unresolved question whether those strong in faith should actively seek temptation to train their spiritual immune system and to prove its strength or if it should be avoided at all costs (‘and he that loveth danger shall perish therein’ Eccl.3,26 (or 27 in other editions)).
    Of course the original idea (kept by Jews and Muslims but mostly dropped by Christians) is that G#d Himself is doing the tempting for uneffable reasons of His own.
    *a common trope in legends about popular saints like e.g. St.Anthony.

  649. Very successful religions have two things in common. They’re against anything which reduces fecundity, and in favour of government authority.
    #1 was the fatal flaw of the Shakers.

  650. Very successful religions have two things in common. They’re against anything which reduces fecundity, and in favour of government authority.
    #1 was the fatal flaw of the Shakers.

  651. “But because they insist that it’s a choice….”
    Those who make that claim have just outed themselves as in-the-closet homosexuals.
    Since sexual orientation is no more a choice than being left-handed, but in or out of the closet? Totally a choice.

  652. “But because they insist that it’s a choice….”
    Those who make that claim have just outed themselves as in-the-closet homosexuals.
    Since sexual orientation is no more a choice than being left-handed, but in or out of the closet? Totally a choice.

  653. reading Dreher, i get the feeling that he’s upset about gay marriage because it stains the pure Christian morality of the US, and that his god will judge us all for it.

  654. reading Dreher, i get the feeling that he’s upset about gay marriage because it stains the pure Christian morality of the US, and that his god will judge us all for it.

  657. I go both ways.
    I write and throw left-handed.
    I use eating utensils and do pretty much everything else with my right-hand.
    Dreher was born into Methodism.
    He converted to Catholicism in 1993 and then, ostensibly because of the pedophilia/corruption scandal in the Catholic Church, he again converted, this time to Eastern Orthodox, itself a result of schism with Rome in the 11th century.
    It has always seemed to me that the least Christians in toto could do before attempting to convert me is make up their minds among themselves first.
    They do, but many times over. And whatever they convert to, becomes the latest and greatest orthodoxy/heresy.
    Plus, you have to get new uniforms and hats, like when I change baseball/softball teams.
    As in all human religions.
    On the big questions, I’m not qualified to answer, being a member of the Church of Unorthodox Ambiguity, and rather enjoying doubt.
    This phrase from Dreher’s Wikipedia page regarding his Benedict Option: “the idea that Christians who want to maintain their faith should segregate themselves to some degree from a post-Obergefell society becoming ever more filled with hatred.”
    Hate started the day after Obergefell.
    See, when Janie, finally, after having her essential nature in the personal matters of love denied, discriminated against, shunned, closeted, and in some cases violently attacked by organized religious zealots for roughly .. forever, sez eff off as answer, it’s hate in Dreher’s increasingly strident opinion, particularly of Janie’s choice of whom to love and spend her time with is codified in to law.
    Somehow, Dreher believes Janie her life under sanction of law is a threat to the practice of his religion, as if the law sez Dreher must marry Janie if she so proposes.
    Janie requests that Christianity stop hating her essential human nature in matters of love.
    The request itself is then termed hate by the haters.
    So they get to hate (and all of the societal punishment that comes with) pretty much with impunity forever, but Janie expresses some middle-finger raising indifference to that behavior, and now Dreher sez “Why do you hate us and drive Christianity into the closet?”
    As with all conservatism among nationalistic and religious purists, the victims of their purity are required to give up their victimhood too, so orthodox conservatives can claim first place in victimhood, after being in first place since Constantine.
    Frankly, from my standpoint, I think orthodox Christians kind of miss being victims and martyrs, as they were in early Rome.
    It strengthened the brand, as our ridiculous society might say.
    Them was the days.
    But yes, both Christians and gays should not be victimized in those countries where both are.
    Regarding McKinney’s objections, I’ve already noted his opened mind, and his church’s on matters of gay marriage, but it might be some small comfort to both McTX and Janie that the tension and insults between believers and non-believers is as old as the first idol carved from neolithic flint, which I realize both are aware of.
    I’m reading “The Problem of Democracy” regarding John and son John Quincy Adams condemnation of the cult of personality in democracies and a sideboard is the elder Adams’ full-throated condemnation of Thomas Paine’s ridicule of organized Christianity.
    Adams hated Ben Franklin too.
    And on down the line.
    If we could have a meeting of the Founders today, it would be cage match.

  658. I go both ways.
    I write and throw left-handed.
    I use eating utensils and do pretty much everything else with my right-hand.
    Dreher was born into Methodism.
    He converted to Catholicism in 1993 and then, ostensibly because of the pedophilia/corruption scandal in the Catholic Church, he again converted, this time to Eastern Orthodox, itself a result of schism with Rome in the 11th century.
    It has always seemed to me that the least Christians in toto could do before attempting to convert me is make up their minds among themselves first.
    They do, but many times over. And whatever they convert to, becomes the latest and greatest orthodoxy/heresy.
    Plus, you have to get new uniforms and hats, like when I change baseball/softball teams.
    As in all human religions.
    On the big questions, I’m not qualified to answer, being a member of the Church of Unorthodox Ambiguity, and rather enjoying doubt.
    This phrase from Dreher’s Wikipedia page regarding his Benedict Option: “the idea that Christians who want to maintain their faith should segregate themselves to some degree from a post-Obergefell society becoming ever more filled with hatred.”
    Hate started the day after Obergefell.
    See, when Janie, finally, after having her essential nature in the personal matters of love denied, discriminated against, shunned, closeted, and in some cases violently attacked by organized religious zealots for roughly .. forever, sez eff off as answer, it’s hate in Dreher’s increasingly strident opinion, particularly of Janie’s choice of whom to love and spend her time with is codified in to law.
    Somehow, Dreher believes Janie her life under sanction of law is a threat to the practice of his religion, as if the law sez Dreher must marry Janie if she so proposes.
    Janie requests that Christianity stop hating her essential human nature in matters of love.
    The request itself is then termed hate by the haters.
    So they get to hate (and all of the societal punishment that comes with) pretty much with impunity forever, but Janie expresses some middle-finger raising indifference to that behavior, and now Dreher sez “Why do you hate us and drive Christianity into the closet?”
    As with all conservatism among nationalistic and religious purists, the victims of their purity are required to give up their victimhood too, so orthodox conservatives can claim first place in victimhood, after being in first place since Constantine.
    Frankly, from my standpoint, I think orthodox Christians kind of miss being victims and martyrs, as they were in early Rome.
    It strengthened the brand, as our ridiculous society might say.
    Them was the days.
    But yes, both Christians and gays should not be victimized in those countries where both are.
    Regarding McKinney’s objections, I’ve already noted his opened mind, and his church’s on matters of gay marriage, but it might be some small comfort to both McTX and Janie that the tension and insults between believers and non-believers is as old as the first idol carved from neolithic flint, which I realize both are aware of.
    I’m reading “The Problem of Democracy” regarding John and son John Quincy Adams condemnation of the cult of personality in democracies and a sideboard is the elder Adams’ full-throated condemnation of Thomas Paine’s ridicule of organized Christianity.
    Adams hated Ben Franklin too.
    And on down the line.
    If we could have a meeting of the Founders today, it would be cage match.

  661. JDT, a good laugh in the morning is a wonderful thing. I would pay to see the cage match…
    I hadn’t though much about your point that Christians can’t seem to settle on one flavor (even though I have watched it in my own family). Ross Douthat has the seat right next to Dreher in that regard.

  662. JDT, a good laugh in the morning is a wonderful thing. I would pay to see the cage match…
    I hadn’t though much about your point that Christians can’t seem to settle on one flavor (even though I have watched it in my own family). Ross Douthat has the seat right next to Dreher in that regard.

  663. JDT, a good laugh in the morning is a wonderful thing. I would pay to see the cage match…
    I hadn’t though much about your point that Christians can’t seem to settle on one flavor (even though I have watched it in my own family). Ross Douthat has the seat right next to Dreher in that regard.

  664. JDT, a good laugh in the morning is a wonderful thing. I would pay to see the cage match…
    I hadn’t though much about your point that Christians can’t seem to settle on one flavor (even though I have watched it in my own family). Ross Douthat has the seat right next to Dreher in that regard.

  665. From James Carse’s “Finite and Infinite Games” — I’m sure I’ve quoted it before, because it’s one of my all-time favorites. Funny that the occasion keeps arising 🙂

    Augustine, the most famous convert of antiquity, was puzzled that he could have held so firmly to so many different falsehoods; he was not astounded that there are so many different truths.

  666. From James Carse’s “Finite and Infinite Games” — I’m sure I’ve quoted it before, because it’s one of my all-time favorites. Funny that the occasion keeps arising 🙂

    Augustine, the most famous convert of antiquity, was puzzled that he could have held so firmly to so many different falsehoods; he was not astounded that there are so many different truths.

  669. I’m planning a road trip in September … hiking and camping in Utah, some Grand Canyon, down to San Diego and then slowly up Highway 1 to San Francisco to see an old friend. Lots of beach time and staring at the ocean.
    But I’m taking Augustine’s Confessions with me to read for the first time at the suggestion of a few people, including my now 90-year old former Philosophy professor from college, and Dreher, in passing, oddly enough.
    But I’m also taking Kerouac’s “On The Road” with me, which I re-read when under locomotion every few years.
    The metaphor of the pilgrimage, central to many religions, appeals to me.
    Probably take some Walker Percy too for review.
    Existential walkabout.
    To what?
    Whatever.

  670. I’m planning a road trip in September … hiking and camping in Utah, some Grand Canyon, down to San Diego and then slowly up Highway 1 to San Francisco to see an old friend. Lots of beach time and staring at the ocean.
    But I’m taking Augustine’s Confessions with me to read for the first time at the suggestion of a few people, including my now 90-year old former Philosophy professor from college, and Dreher, in passing, oddly enough.
    But I’m also taking Kerouac’s “On The Road” with me, which I re-read when under locomotion every few years.
    The metaphor of the pilgrimage, central to many religions, appeals to me.
    Probably take some Walker Percy too for review.
    Existential walkabout.
    To what?
    Whatever.

  671. Augustine’s Confessions gave me the impression that his most poinsonous teaching (original sin) came directly from him being annoyed by the cries of his own (out-of-wedlock) child.

  672. Augustine’s Confessions gave me the impression that his most poinsonous teaching (original sin) came directly from him being annoyed by the cries of his own (out-of-wedlock) child.

  673. Dreher believes Janie her life under sanction of law is a threat to the practice of his religion
    Life in the US would be greatly helped by a crisp definition of what “exercise of religion” means.
    I’m reading a history of the doctrine of the trinity, which is pretty interesting. One of my take-aways is that the break between the Eastern and Western Christian traditions started long before the 11th C.
    It’s also remarkable how enormously large arguments can stem from the inability of words in one language to translate directly into another.
    People will argue about anything. They’ll argue about whether arguing is good or bad.
    Monkeys with big brains.

  674. Dreher believes Janie her life under sanction of law is a threat to the practice of his religion
    Life in the US would be greatly helped by a crisp definition of what “exercise of religion” means.
    I’m reading a history of the doctrine of the trinity, which is pretty interesting. One of my take-aways is that the break between the Eastern and Western Christian traditions started long before the 11th C.
    It’s also remarkable how enormously large arguments can stem from the inability of words in one language to translate directly into another.
    People will argue about anything. They’ll argue about whether arguing is good or bad.
    Monkeys with big brains.

  675. I go both ways.
    I write and throw left-handed.
    I use eating utensils and do pretty much everything else with my right-hand.
    And I’m just the opposite. I write right-handed — with a language written left to right, it’s the way to go if you can. (If I’d grown up writing Arabic or Hebrew, likely I’d write with my left hand.) And I throw right handed just because, growing up, it was almost impossible to get a right hand glove. Another feature of the Golden Age of the 1950s in rural California.
    But for most other thing things, especially those requiring strength, I favor the left hand to some degree. Always have.
    I once got shown a cute test for whether, left to yourself (i.e. unchivvied by school teachers), you would be left handed or right handed. Fold your hands together, interlacing the fingers. Which index finger is on top? Sure, you undoubtedly can do it either way. But which one happens when you’re running on automatic?

  676. I go both ways.
    I write and throw left-handed.
    I use eating utensils and do pretty much everything else with my right-hand.
    And I’m just the opposite. I write right-handed — with a language written left to right, it’s the way to go if you can. (If I’d grown up writing Arabic or Hebrew, likely I’d write with my left hand.) And I throw right handed just because, growing up, it was almost impossible to get a right hand glove. Another feature of the Golden Age of the 1950s in rural California.
    But for most other thing things, especially those requiring strength, I favor the left hand to some degree. Always have.
    I once got shown a cute test for whether, left to yourself (i.e. unchivvied by school teachers), you would be left handed or right handed. Fold your hands together, interlacing the fingers. Which index finger is on top? Sure, you undoubtedly can do it either way. But which one happens when you’re running on automatic?

  677. then slowly up Highway 1 to San Francisco
    It’s a beautiful ride. Especially the stretch from Santa Barbara to Monterey.
    Enjoy!

  678. then slowly up Highway 1 to San Francisco
    It’s a beautiful ride. Especially the stretch from Santa Barbara to Monterey.
    Enjoy!

  679. But for most other thing things, especially those requiring strength, I favor the left hand to some degree.
    I think Janie and I had this discussion way back, but my non-expert theory on this is that the dominant hand is the manipulator with more fine motor skill. The non-dominant hand is for gross stabilization, with more strength, particularly isometric strength. (Someone with actual expert knowledge of this sort of thing could weigh in and correct or validate what I’m saying, as the case may be.)
    Fold your hands together, interlacing the fingers. Which index finger is on top?
    So I should be left-handed if this is really a thing.

  680. But for most other thing things, especially those requiring strength, I favor the left hand to some degree.
    I think Janie and I had this discussion way back, but my non-expert theory on this is that the dominant hand is the manipulator with more fine motor skill. The non-dominant hand is for gross stabilization, with more strength, particularly isometric strength. (Someone with actual expert knowledge of this sort of thing could weigh in and correct or validate what I’m saying, as the case may be.)
    Fold your hands together, interlacing the fingers. Which index finger is on top?
    So I should be left-handed if this is really a thing.

  685. perhaps a better “innate” characteristic is whether you are right- or left-eye dominant.
    A characteristic that you need to know to properly aim a rifle.
    Because, sure you can be dextrodextrous or sinestradextrous or even ambidextrous or amphidextrous.
    Me, I proudly represent the adextrous community. Also lovers of greek prefixes also, too.
    BTW, wasn’t there some little tidbit in the xtian NT that exhorted believers to do their worshipping in closets? Maybe someone should lock Dreher in on. For his own good.

  686. perhaps a better “innate” characteristic is whether you are right- or left-eye dominant.
    A characteristic that you need to know to properly aim a rifle.
    Because, sure you can be dextrodextrous or sinestradextrous or even ambidextrous or amphidextrous.
    Me, I proudly represent the adextrous community. Also lovers of greek prefixes also, too.
    BTW, wasn’t there some little tidbit in the xtian NT that exhorted believers to do their worshipping in closets? Maybe someone should lock Dreher in on. For his own good.

  687. I’m overwhelmingly right-handed and right-footed (also strongly right-eyed). OTOH, both hands seemed to be equally good at learning individual finger movements (touch typing) and moving odd combinations of fingers at the same time (woodwinds, oboe and various clarinets). Interesting thing about the woodwinds is that for most of them you use all four fingers and thumb on your left hand to play, but your right thumb is basically a prop to hold the instrument up.

  688. I’m overwhelmingly right-handed and right-footed (also strongly right-eyed). OTOH, both hands seemed to be equally good at learning individual finger movements (touch typing) and moving odd combinations of fingers at the same time (woodwinds, oboe and various clarinets). Interesting thing about the woodwinds is that for most of them you use all four fingers and thumb on your left hand to play, but your right thumb is basically a prop to hold the instrument up.

  691. perhaps a better “innate” characteristic is whether you are right- or left-eye dominant.
    We may have had this discussion before, but you can tell by framing a distant object, like a doorknob, say, in a triangle formed by the putting your thumbs and forefingers together. Having done that close each eye in turn and see which one, when open, still has the object in the frame. That’s the dominant one.
    You aim with your dominant eye, which explains why a large percentage of major league baseball players are “cross-dominant,” right-handed with a dominant left eye or vice versa – when batting, they aim with their front eye. This theory does not explain why I, right-handed and left-eyed, could never hit a baseball, or even a softball, for beans.
    As an aside, I once met the team optometrist for the Dodgers, who told me the average MLB player has 20/12 vision, with some reaching 20/8.

  692. perhaps a better “innate” characteristic is whether you are right- or left-eye dominant.
    We may have had this discussion before, but you can tell by framing a distant object, like a doorknob, say, in a triangle formed by the putting your thumbs and forefingers together. Having done that close each eye in turn and see which one, when open, still has the object in the frame. That’s the dominant one.
    You aim with your dominant eye, which explains why a large percentage of major league baseball players are “cross-dominant,” right-handed with a dominant left eye or vice versa – when batting, they aim with their front eye. This theory does not explain why I, right-handed and left-eyed, could never hit a baseball, or even a softball, for beans.
    As an aside, I once met the team optometrist for the Dodgers, who told me the average MLB player has 20/12 vision, with some reaching 20/8.

  697. Despite throwing and writing from the left side, I bat right-handed in baseball and softball (very unusual; Ricky Henderson was probably the best known ballplayer among maybe a dozen), which was established when I was very young.
    My dominant eye is the right one, perhaps by accident.
    At 11 years of age, I lost (nearly lost the eye altogether) most of my sight in my left eye (playing catch, the ball was thrown over my head into the woods and while retrieving it a branch snapped back and a twig went directly thru the center of my left eye; cataract surgery etc, before lasers. I retain some vision but it’s not really correctible, thus I don’t use the eye).
    I was told I’d probably never play baseball with any effectiveness again.
    Yeah, well.
    But I continued batting right-handed and I’ve been told that I wait on the ball, aiming with my back eye, unlike anyone else in my peer group has experienced. My power is opposite to right-center field but I can turn on the ball as well when necessary.
    I still have slight double vision, but over the years, my brain doesn’t notice it anymore via its adaptable compensation. Sometimes, in the past, it would take me a couple of practices to get used to the reduced depth perception as well, but then I’d be fine in center going back on the ball the rest of the season.
    By the way, I retired from the game at the end of last season, solely to devote more time to travel after 40-some years of playing ball March thru October each year.
    I achieved more and all that I thought possible in both games at the amateur level.
    Oddly, too, both my strength and fine motor functions are in my right hand, except for writing, which I rarely do anymore anyway.
    I can’t comfortably lift weight above a certain height from the left side like I can from the right side (frayed rotator cuff; too many diving catches and partially separating my shoulder about six times), but even last summer at age 67, I could still throw guys out at third base from fairly deep center field …. left-handed, naturally.
    I’m weirdly wired, but you guys probably figured that out some time ago.
    When I joke that I’m crazy, I twirl the index finger on my right hand near my right temple.

  698. Despite throwing and writing from the left side, I bat right-handed in baseball and softball (very unusual; Ricky Henderson was probably the best known ballplayer among maybe a dozen), which was established when I was very young.
    My dominant eye is the right one, perhaps by accident.
    At 11 years of age, I lost (nearly lost the eye altogether) most of my sight in my left eye (playing catch, the ball was thrown over my head into the woods and while retrieving it a branch snapped back and a twig went directly thru the center of my left eye; cataract surgery etc, before lasers. I retain some vision but it’s not really correctible, thus I don’t use the eye).
    I was told I’d probably never play baseball with any effectiveness again.
    Yeah, well.
    But I continued batting right-handed and I’ve been told that I wait on the ball, aiming with my back eye, unlike anyone else in my peer group has experienced. My power is opposite to right-center field but I can turn on the ball as well when necessary.
    I still have slight double vision, but over the years, my brain doesn’t notice it anymore via its adaptable compensation. Sometimes, in the past, it would take me a couple of practices to get used to the reduced depth perception as well, but then I’d be fine in center going back on the ball the rest of the season.
    By the way, I retired from the game at the end of last season, solely to devote more time to travel after 40-some years of playing ball March thru October each year.
    I achieved more and all that I thought possible in both games at the amateur level.
    Oddly, too, both my strength and fine motor functions are in my right hand, except for writing, which I rarely do anymore anyway.
    I can’t comfortably lift weight above a certain height from the left side like I can from the right side (frayed rotator cuff; too many diving catches and partially separating my shoulder about six times), but even last summer at age 67, I could still throw guys out at third base from fairly deep center field …. left-handed, naturally.
    I’m weirdly wired, but you guys probably figured that out some time ago.
    When I joke that I’m crazy, I twirl the index finger on my right hand near my right temple.

  699. Whether you are “naturally” right handed.
    if right is on top, or bottom?
    Sorry, I should have been more clear. If the right index finger is on top, you are naturally right handed. Contrawise if it’s the left index finger. Just how strongly you are one or the other is a seperate question.

  700. Whether you are “naturally” right handed.
    if right is on top, or bottom?
    Sorry, I should have been more clear. If the right index finger is on top, you are naturally right handed. Contrawise if it’s the left index finger. Just how strongly you are one or the other is a seperate question.

  701. My left thumb is on top when I lace my fingers together.
    That means when I pray I’m left-handed and yet when I flip the bird, I’m right-handed all the way.
    I’ve done everything ass-backwards since the beginning.

  702. My left thumb is on top when I lace my fingers together.
    That means when I pray I’m left-handed and yet when I flip the bird, I’m right-handed all the way.
    I’ve done everything ass-backwards since the beginning.

  705. Just looked up the stats.
    As of a few years ago, there had been 522 major league ballplayers in game history who throw lefty and bat righty, that’s gotta be out of tens of thousands, if not six figures who do otherwise.
    Nearly all of the group were pitchers, not position players.

  706. Just looked up the stats.
    As of a few years ago, there had been 522 major league ballplayers in game history who throw lefty and bat righty, that’s gotta be out of tens of thousands, if not six figures who do otherwise.
    Nearly all of the group were pitchers, not position players.

  707. This theory does not explain why I, right-handed and left-eyed, could never hit a baseball, or even a softball, for beans.
    According to your framing test, I’m left-eyed. (I’m also right-handed.) I never played much baseball, but I could hit pretty well in pick-up and gym-class games of softball without much to speak of in the way of practice. Occasionally, I would crush the ball, like jogging-around-the-bases homeruns because I put it that far past the outfielders.
    But I never got acclimated to fast pitching. I could consistently hit the ball on the slow speed (45 MPH?) at a batting cage on the few times I got needled into to going. Anything faster than that, and the ball was past me before I started to swing.

  708. This theory does not explain why I, right-handed and left-eyed, could never hit a baseball, or even a softball, for beans.
    According to your framing test, I’m left-eyed. (I’m also right-handed.) I never played much baseball, but I could hit pretty well in pick-up and gym-class games of softball without much to speak of in the way of practice. Occasionally, I would crush the ball, like jogging-around-the-bases homeruns because I put it that far past the outfielders.
    But I never got acclimated to fast pitching. I could consistently hit the ball on the slow speed (45 MPH?) at a batting cage on the few times I got needled into to going. Anything faster than that, and the ball was past me before I started to swing.

  709. Just how strongly you are one or the other is a seperate question.
    I don’t know if this matters, but when I try to lace my fingers my right index finger on top, it feels very unnatural. It’s not subtle.

  710. Just how strongly you are one or the other is a seperate question.
    I don’t know if this matters, but when I try to lace my fingers my right index finger on top, it feels very unnatural. It’s not subtle.

  711. I don’t know if this matters, but when I try to lace my fingers my right index finger on top, it feels very unnatural. It’s not subtle.
    Me too. Yet I’m pretty strongly right-handed, and I’m pretty sure I wasn’t manipulated or bullied in that direction as a child.

  712. I don’t know if this matters, but when I try to lace my fingers my right index finger on top, it feels very unnatural. It’s not subtle.
    Me too. Yet I’m pretty strongly right-handed, and I’m pretty sure I wasn’t manipulated or bullied in that direction as a child.

  713. Once a long time ago, before the internet and politics colonized my brain, I used a few brain cells to notice that when I soap up at a sink or in the shower, I always roll the soap one way and not the other. It feels very unnatural to try to reverse the motion. It also makes me wonder how many other little things there are that reflect handedness somehow, that we never notice.
    I played the piano as a kid…can still sit down and play almost as well as ever, which was never past choir accompanist level. As with typing: both hands are fairly equal. I learned to play the fiddle at the age of 40, and can play a few guitar chords, and can’t imagine changing hands on either one. I think it would be easier on the fiddle, because bowing doesn’t involve the finger dexterity that finger-picking a guitar does. (Imagine being Jimi Hendrix….!)
    *****
    Baseball: I was never very good at it, but could hit almost as well lefty as righty. Couldn’t throw left *at all.* Mostly threw “like a girl” (well, my dad didn’t want me to have my own baseball glove, that was for boys, so he certainly wasn’t going to play catch with me). Then lost the ability to throw decently at all after hurting my arm. Wouldn’t have needed to, except in those days I often served as a practice catcher (FSM help me) for my ex, who was a fast pitch softball pitcher. That activity did improve my eye for batting: it was catch the pitches or die, when we practiced.
    *****
    John Thullen: did you mention last summer that it was your last playing baseball? If so, I missed it. That seems an occasion to take note of with some kind of salute or ceremony.
    So I salute you! And send good wishes for a great trip up the coast with Augustine and Jack.

  714. Once a long time ago, before the internet and politics colonized my brain, I used a few brain cells to notice that when I soap up at a sink or in the shower, I always roll the soap one way and not the other. It feels very unnatural to try to reverse the motion. It also makes me wonder how many other little things there are that reflect handedness somehow, that we never notice.
    I played the piano as a kid…can still sit down and play almost as well as ever, which was never past choir accompanist level. As with typing: both hands are fairly equal. I learned to play the fiddle at the age of 40, and can play a few guitar chords, and can’t imagine changing hands on either one. I think it would be easier on the fiddle, because bowing doesn’t involve the finger dexterity that finger-picking a guitar does. (Imagine being Jimi Hendrix….!)
    *****
    Baseball: I was never very good at it, but could hit almost as well lefty as righty. Couldn’t throw left *at all.* Mostly threw “like a girl” (well, my dad didn’t want me to have my own baseball glove, that was for boys, so he certainly wasn’t going to play catch with me). Then lost the ability to throw decently at all after hurting my arm. Wouldn’t have needed to, except in those days I often served as a practice catcher (FSM help me) for my ex, who was a fast pitch softball pitcher. That activity did improve my eye for batting: it was catch the pitches or die, when we practiced.
    *****
    John Thullen: did you mention last summer that it was your last playing baseball? If so, I missed it. That seems an occasion to take note of with some kind of salute or ceremony.
    So I salute you! And send good wishes for a great trip up the coast with Augustine and Jack.

  715. me: I think it would be easier on the fiddle, because bowing doesn’t involve the finger dexterity that finger-picking a guitar does. (Imagine being Jimi Hendrix….!)
    But as I think about it a bit more, and try to imagine switching hands, it seems like my right hand would have a much harder time taking over the left hand’s usual function, than the left taking over the right’s. But that might also depend on whether the strings were reversed: that is, I feel like my left hand could strum about as well as my right, if the strings were oriented the same way (lowest pitch on the bottom, etc.).

  716. me: I think it would be easier on the fiddle, because bowing doesn’t involve the finger dexterity that finger-picking a guitar does. (Imagine being Jimi Hendrix….!)
    But as I think about it a bit more, and try to imagine switching hands, it seems like my right hand would have a much harder time taking over the left hand’s usual function, than the left taking over the right’s. But that might also depend on whether the strings were reversed: that is, I feel like my left hand could strum about as well as my right, if the strings were oriented the same way (lowest pitch on the bottom, etc.).

  717. Sorry, I should have been more clear. If the right index finger is on top, you are naturally right handed. Contrawise if it’s the left index finger.
    Research I can find online reports “marginal association between handedness and hand clasping”.
    I write right-handed. I kick a ball right-footed. I bowl, bat, and play racquet games right-handed. I clasp my hands with my left thumb on top.

  718. Sorry, I should have been more clear. If the right index finger is on top, you are naturally right handed. Contrawise if it’s the left index finger.
    Research I can find online reports “marginal association between handedness and hand clasping”.
    I write right-handed. I kick a ball right-footed. I bowl, bat, and play racquet games right-handed. I clasp my hands with my left thumb on top.

  723. As an aside, I once met the team optometrist for the Dodgers, who told me the average MLB player has 20/12 vision, with some reaching 20/8.
    And as the players age, or perhaps simply weren’t gifted with that kind of vision initially, MLB has no qualms about allowing players to get Lasik’ed to have vision that good. But steroids are bad? What are they going to do about the first player who has an artificial elbow put in?

  724. As an aside, I once met the team optometrist for the Dodgers, who told me the average MLB player has 20/12 vision, with some reaching 20/8.
    And as the players age, or perhaps simply weren’t gifted with that kind of vision initially, MLB has no qualms about allowing players to get Lasik’ed to have vision that good. But steroids are bad? What are they going to do about the first player who has an artificial elbow put in?

  725. i’ve never switched hands on the guitar, but just making the basic chord shapes in the air as i sit here, my right hand is doing a pretty good job of coming up with the shapes, even if i don’t look at what i’m doing. weird. my right hand even knows the various scale patterns.
    maybe i’ll try switching. maybe i won’t suck if i do it backwards.

  726. i’ve never switched hands on the guitar, but just making the basic chord shapes in the air as i sit here, my right hand is doing a pretty good job of coming up with the shapes, even if i don’t look at what i’m doing. weird. my right hand even knows the various scale patterns.
    maybe i’ll try switching. maybe i won’t suck if i do it backwards.

  727. Michael Cain: I don’t have time to go on at length at the moment, but I got into a big argument with a relative about this a few years ago, based on the question of why a football player could wear a knee brace that probably made his knee less vulnerable than the unprotected knees of the other players, but a bicycle racer couldn’t use cold medicine.
    My relative, being an old curmudgeon, was so nasty to me for raising this question, even in a very musing, abstract way, that I almost left the party. But I think it’s a fair question, and it will only get harder to answer as researchers develop ever fancier ways to repair and enhance bodies.
    Then there’s the question of gender and sports….

  728. Michael Cain: I don’t have time to go on at length at the moment, but I got into a big argument with a relative about this a few years ago, based on the question of why a football player could wear a knee brace that probably made his knee less vulnerable than the unprotected knees of the other players, but a bicycle racer couldn’t use cold medicine.
    My relative, being an old curmudgeon, was so nasty to me for raising this question, even in a very musing, abstract way, that I almost left the party. But I think it’s a fair question, and it will only get harder to answer as researchers develop ever fancier ways to repair and enhance bodies.
    Then there’s the question of gender and sports….

  733. MLB has no qualms about allowing players to get Lasik’ed to have vision that good. But steroids are bad?
    I’m familiar with some serious negative effects of steroid use. But not of Lasik. Do you know of any?
    Then there’s the question of gender and sports….
    I’ll venture a prediction. Eventually sports will use a standard based on the level of natural steroids (especially, but not necessarily exclusively, testosterone). Over the threshold and you’re in the “men’s” group. Under and you compete in the “women’s” group. What your plumbing is at the moment, or how you “identify” is irrelevant.
    Since the average for men is 7-8 times the average for women, there would seem to be plenty of room to put a threshold which would not impact the vast majority of individuals. At most, there might need to be some caveats about what level you had at any point after puberty, to deal with those who build up a lot of muscle before transitioning to female.
    I’d expect they would still ban any other steroids.

  734. MLB has no qualms about allowing players to get Lasik’ed to have vision that good. But steroids are bad?
    I’m familiar with some serious negative effects of steroid use. But not of Lasik. Do you know of any?
    Then there’s the question of gender and sports….
    I’ll venture a prediction. Eventually sports will use a standard based on the level of natural steroids (especially, but not necessarily exclusively, testosterone). Over the threshold and you’re in the “men’s” group. Under and you compete in the “women’s” group. What your plumbing is at the moment, or how you “identify” is irrelevant.
    Since the average for men is 7-8 times the average for women, there would seem to be plenty of room to put a threshold which would not impact the vast majority of individuals. At most, there might need to be some caveats about what level you had at any point after puberty, to deal with those who build up a lot of muscle before transitioning to female.
    I’d expect they would still ban any other steroids.

  735. Over the threshold and you’re in the “men’s” group. Under and you compete in the “women’s” group.
    Then there’s people like sprinter Caster Semenya with a sexual development abnormality that puts her testosterone levels higher than the normal range for woman but much lower than the normal range for men. As a result (doing this from memory, so details are suspect) her skeletal and muscular development following puberty were “somewhat” male-like. She’s not at all competitive with world-class male sprinters. But, as one of the people high up in international track and field put it, since we can now identify girls with the problem and train them, and if they are allowed to compete in the women’s category, it’s only a matter of time until all the women’s records will be held by sprinters with this particular abnormality.

  736. Over the threshold and you’re in the “men’s” group. Under and you compete in the “women’s” group.
    Then there’s people like sprinter Caster Semenya with a sexual development abnormality that puts her testosterone levels higher than the normal range for woman but much lower than the normal range for men. As a result (doing this from memory, so details are suspect) her skeletal and muscular development following puberty were “somewhat” male-like. She’s not at all competitive with world-class male sprinters. But, as one of the people high up in international track and field put it, since we can now identify girls with the problem and train them, and if they are allowed to compete in the women’s category, it’s only a matter of time until all the women’s records will be held by sprinters with this particular abnormality.

  737. it’s only a matter of time until all the women’s records will be held by sprinters with this particular abnormality.
    I would never suggest that this is an easy issue to deal with, but let me just point out that all the center positions in the NBA are held by players with an abnormality that makes them seven feet tall. And I wouldn’t be surprised if everyone who holds records in track and field has “abnormalities” of some sort, if only we knew how to fine-tune our genetic and physiological testing to a fine enough grain. Secretariat had an abnormally big heart….
    It’s a messy problem.

  738. it’s only a matter of time until all the women’s records will be held by sprinters with this particular abnormality.
    I would never suggest that this is an easy issue to deal with, but let me just point out that all the center positions in the NBA are held by players with an abnormality that makes them seven feet tall. And I wouldn’t be surprised if everyone who holds records in track and field has “abnormalities” of some sort, if only we knew how to fine-tune our genetic and physiological testing to a fine enough grain. Secretariat had an abnormally big heart….
    It’s a messy problem.

  739. And the whole problem has a deep connection to our oh so human obsession with winning. Without that, we could be happy continually improving our personal best, or just playing the game.

  740. And the whole problem has a deep connection to our oh so human obsession with winning. Without that, we could be happy continually improving our personal best, or just playing the game.

  741. There are a couple of choices. You can lump everybody together, and those with useful anomalies will dominate. You can make a binary division, and achieve the same in both groups. Or you can make multiple classes, . . . and achieve the same repeatedly. It just depends on how granular you care to be.

  742. There are a couple of choices. You can lump everybody together, and those with useful anomalies will dominate. You can make a binary division, and achieve the same in both groups. Or you can make multiple classes, . . . and achieve the same repeatedly. It just depends on how granular you care to be.

  743. all the center positions in the NBA are held by players with an abnormality that makes them seven feet tall. And I wouldn’t be surprised if everyone who holds records in track and field has “abnormalities” of some sort,
    And don’t forget those guys with 20/8 vision. ted Williams was reported at 20/10, and rumored, inaccurately to be 20/3. Sounds like an abnormality to me.
    I agree with wj’s implicit argument that the problem with steroids is that they are harmful and they work. That they work means that it eventually becomes necessary to take them to compete, and that process works its way down, inevitably, to college and high school sports.
    Best to stop it.
    What are they going to do about the first player who has an artificial elbow put in?
    Well, Tommy John surgery is getting close, and MLB has no problem with it, though John himself has been alarmed by the fact that it is spreading among teenagers, and has campaigned against that. I think this supports the steroid ban.

  744. all the center positions in the NBA are held by players with an abnormality that makes them seven feet tall. And I wouldn’t be surprised if everyone who holds records in track and field has “abnormalities” of some sort,
    And don’t forget those guys with 20/8 vision. ted Williams was reported at 20/10, and rumored, inaccurately to be 20/3. Sounds like an abnormality to me.
    I agree with wj’s implicit argument that the problem with steroids is that they are harmful and they work. That they work means that it eventually becomes necessary to take them to compete, and that process works its way down, inevitably, to college and high school sports.
    Best to stop it.
    What are they going to do about the first player who has an artificial elbow put in?
    Well, Tommy John surgery is getting close, and MLB has no problem with it, though John himself has been alarmed by the fact that it is spreading among teenagers, and has campaigned against that. I think this supports the steroid ban.

  749. Research I can find online reports “marginal association between handedness and hand clasping”.
    I write right-handed. I kick a ball right-footed. I bowl, bat, and play racquet games right-handed. I clasp my hands with my left thumb on top.
    That research is 1974. It was somewhat supported by an article in 2012 but the biggest and latest study I can find:
    Abstract: Hand clasping (HC) and arm folding (AF) are bilateral limb postures which are subject to lateral preferences. Previous research suggested that left HC and left AF are “canonical” among European populations, i.e., generally preferred by right-handers. However, evidence on the associations of handedness with HC and AF to date is sparse and inconsistent, with studies mostly relying on relatively small sample sizes and arbitrary classifications of handedness. Utilizing latent class analysis for handedness classification, we present data from two large and independent middle-European samples, a discovery (n = 7,658) and replication (n = 5,062) sample. Our results indicate that right HC, not left HC, is overall preferred and that right-handedness is associated with right HC/left AF, and left- and mixed-handedness with left HC/right AF. Moreover, lateral preferences increased with age, and men had a higher preference of right HC, independent of handedness. We discuss our findings with regard to the generalizability of previous results.
    (Ulrich S. Tran, Ingrid Koller, Ingo W. Nader, Jakob Pietschnig, Anne H. E. Schild, Stefan Stieger, Elisabeth L. Zeilinger & Martin Voracek (2014) Lateral preferences for hand clasping and arm folding are associated with handedness in two large-sample latent variable analyses, Laterality: Asymmetries of Body, Brain and Cognition, 19:5, 602-614)

  750. Research I can find online reports “marginal association between handedness and hand clasping”.
    I write right-handed. I kick a ball right-footed. I bowl, bat, and play racquet games right-handed. I clasp my hands with my left thumb on top.
    That research is 1974. It was somewhat supported by an article in 2012 but the biggest and latest study I can find:
    Abstract: Hand clasping (HC) and arm folding (AF) are bilateral limb postures which are subject to lateral preferences. Previous research suggested that left HC and left AF are “canonical” among European populations, i.e., generally preferred by right-handers. However, evidence on the associations of handedness with HC and AF to date is sparse and inconsistent, with studies mostly relying on relatively small sample sizes and arbitrary classifications of handedness. Utilizing latent class analysis for handedness classification, we present data from two large and independent middle-European samples, a discovery (n = 7,658) and replication (n = 5,062) sample. Our results indicate that right HC, not left HC, is overall preferred and that right-handedness is associated with right HC/left AF, and left- and mixed-handedness with left HC/right AF. Moreover, lateral preferences increased with age, and men had a higher preference of right HC, independent of handedness. We discuss our findings with regard to the generalizability of previous results.
    (Ulrich S. Tran, Ingrid Koller, Ingo W. Nader, Jakob Pietschnig, Anne H. E. Schild, Stefan Stieger, Elisabeth L. Zeilinger & Martin Voracek (2014) Lateral preferences for hand clasping and arm folding are associated with handedness in two large-sample latent variable analyses, Laterality: Asymmetries of Body, Brain and Cognition, 19:5, 602-614)

  751. Pitchers are now undergoing multiple Timmy John surgeries during their careers.
    Tommy John’s son works with young baseball players and is warning that the procedure is out of control, with 57% of the patients operated on under the age of 18, some of them returning a second time.
    His Dad agrees.
    I played little league and high school ball and lots of pickup but now sons of friends of mine are playing 100 games a year at the age of 13 and 14, and experiencing stress fractures and other repetitive motion injuries.
    Their still developing skeletons and musculature are not mature enough to stand the physical stress.
    Youth sports is big business and the kids are way over-organized by zealous coaches and parents for the prestige, somehow thinking their kids are headed for a life in sports.
    It’s like they are training gladiators.
    My buddy, whose kid is a really good 14-year old player, has shelled out probably more than $10,000 in hitting and pitching lessons in the last five years.
    One of his teams has five uniforms — practice, home games, away games, tournament games, and the fifth I guess for team photos.
    It’s nuts.
    Like everything Americans get a hold of in this deracinated modern age, we up the ante and create an expensive aura of bullshit about and over everything.
    Only the best, like Jurassic Park. Then, everyone gets eaten.
    Just give me a clearing in the woods on an early summer day, the grass roughly mowed, some gunny sacks for bases, and an extra ball for when we lose the first one. A sister at second base.
    Anyone bring a sandwich?
    Play until the cicadas sing the sun low in the sky, and nod off at the dinner table, my glove in my lap.

  752. Pitchers are now undergoing multiple Timmy John surgeries during their careers.
    Tommy John’s son works with young baseball players and is warning that the procedure is out of control, with 57% of the patients operated on under the age of 18, some of them returning a second time.
    His Dad agrees.
    I played little league and high school ball and lots of pickup but now sons of friends of mine are playing 100 games a year at the age of 13 and 14, and experiencing stress fractures and other repetitive motion injuries.
    Their still developing skeletons and musculature are not mature enough to stand the physical stress.
    Youth sports is big business and the kids are way over-organized by zealous coaches and parents for the prestige, somehow thinking their kids are headed for a life in sports.
    It’s like they are training gladiators.
    My buddy, whose kid is a really good 14-year old player, has shelled out probably more than $10,000 in hitting and pitching lessons in the last five years.
    One of his teams has five uniforms — practice, home games, away games, tournament games, and the fifth I guess for team photos.
    It’s nuts.
    Like everything Americans get a hold of in this deracinated modern age, we up the ante and create an expensive aura of bullshit about and over everything.
    Only the best, like Jurassic Park. Then, everyone gets eaten.
    Just give me a clearing in the woods on an early summer day, the grass roughly mowed, some gunny sacks for bases, and an extra ball for when we lose the first one. A sister at second base.
    Anyone bring a sandwich?
    Play until the cicadas sing the sun low in the sky, and nod off at the dinner table, my glove in my lap.

  755. Just give me a clearing in the woods on an early summer day, the grass roughly mowed, some gunny sacks for bases, and an extra ball for when we lose the first one. A sister at second base.
    Amen

  756. Just give me a clearing in the woods on an early summer day, the grass roughly mowed, some gunny sacks for bases, and an extra ball for when we lose the first one. A sister at second base.
    Amen

  757. One of his teams has five uniforms — practice, home games, away games, tournament games, and the fifth I guess for team photos.
    Reminds me of the fol-de-rol (and expense) required to have your kids in dance classes, as a couple of my former co-workers do. Or the “extreme cheerleading” that one of my great-nieces is involved with.
    As you say, “an expensive aura of bullshit.” And someone is making a lot of $ out of it.

  758. One of his teams has five uniforms — practice, home games, away games, tournament games, and the fifth I guess for team photos.
    Reminds me of the fol-de-rol (and expense) required to have your kids in dance classes, as a couple of my former co-workers do. Or the “extreme cheerleading” that one of my great-nieces is involved with.
    As you say, “an expensive aura of bullshit.” And someone is making a lot of $ out of it.

  759. It does really seem like a bunch of people with more money than they know what to do with. And some seriously misplaced priorities when it comes to child rearing. (At 10 or 15, sports should be about fun. Not a full time career.)

  760. It does really seem like a bunch of people with more money than they know what to do with. And some seriously misplaced priorities when it comes to child rearing. (At 10 or 15, sports should be about fun. Not a full time career.)

  761. It does really seem like a bunch of people with more money than they know what to do with.
    Anecdata, I know, but the people I know who are doing this stuff are very much not people who have more money than they know what to do with. Quite the contrary, in fact. Maybe more well-off people lead the way and other people feel like they have to keep up with the Joneses…? I dunno.

  762. It does really seem like a bunch of people with more money than they know what to do with.
    Anecdata, I know, but the people I know who are doing this stuff are very much not people who have more money than they know what to do with. Quite the contrary, in fact. Maybe more well-off people lead the way and other people feel like they have to keep up with the Joneses…? I dunno.

  763. Just give me a clearing in the woods on an early summer day
    I was born in Queens and grew up mostly on Long Island.
    Gimme a street with minimal cars parked on it, some chalk to draw bases, and either a Spalding (for stickball) or a spongeball (for baseball, so we don’t break stuff). We mostly played spongeball, with stickball the ball goes a lot farther and the street wasn’t that long.
    As an aside, Spaldings are also good for punch ball and handball. We didn’t have a good wall for handball in my neighborhood, but we did occasionally play punchball. If you’re going that way, it has to be a Spalding hi-bounce. You got them at Woolworth’s. In principle, there were other pink rubber balls available, but they were not worth considering.
    No pitching, the batter just tosses the ball and hits it. Teams agree in advance if it’s no-bounce or one-bounce. More than one-bounce is possible for little kids, but nobody age 10 or over would consider it.
    We had rules generally categorized as “interference” to manage the inevitable reality of all of the crap – power lines, maple trees, cars – that co-exist with and impinge upon our chalk-enscribed baseball diamond. If after being hit, the ball encounters a tree limb or a power line or a street lamp or whatever, any fielder can call “interference!” and it’s a do-over.
    I lived on a street that ended in a hill, with a storm drain at the bottom. If the ball somehow escaped our fielding skills and found its way down the hill, the owner of the ball had a claim to be compensated for the price of a new ball, *if and only if* he called “dibs” before the ball went down the drain. Failing that, he was SOL.
    There were a couple of families on the block who got bent out of shape if you ran around on their lawn, so we tried to not hit the ball on their property. And, there were folks who would lose their sh*t if the ball hit their car, but that was less obvious, so we mostly got away with that. If you got caught bouncing a line drive off of somebody’s car, you’re probably call the game and go do something else.
    And, of course, nobody slides on asphalt.
    If we wanted to actually play hardball, we could all jump on our bikes and ride over to the middle school, where there was a proper ball field. Mostly, we didn’t bother.
    Good times.

  764. Just give me a clearing in the woods on an early summer day
    I was born in Queens and grew up mostly on Long Island.
    Gimme a street with minimal cars parked on it, some chalk to draw bases, and either a Spalding (for stickball) or a spongeball (for baseball, so we don’t break stuff). We mostly played spongeball, with stickball the ball goes a lot farther and the street wasn’t that long.
    As an aside, Spaldings are also good for punch ball and handball. We didn’t have a good wall for handball in my neighborhood, but we did occasionally play punchball. If you’re going that way, it has to be a Spalding hi-bounce. You got them at Woolworth’s. In principle, there were other pink rubber balls available, but they were not worth considering.
    No pitching, the batter just tosses the ball and hits it. Teams agree in advance if it’s no-bounce or one-bounce. More than one-bounce is possible for little kids, but nobody age 10 or over would consider it.
    We had rules generally categorized as “interference” to manage the inevitable reality of all of the crap – power lines, maple trees, cars – that co-exist with and impinge upon our chalk-enscribed baseball diamond. If after being hit, the ball encounters a tree limb or a power line or a street lamp or whatever, any fielder can call “interference!” and it’s a do-over.
    I lived on a street that ended in a hill, with a storm drain at the bottom. If the ball somehow escaped our fielding skills and found its way down the hill, the owner of the ball had a claim to be compensated for the price of a new ball, *if and only if* he called “dibs” before the ball went down the drain. Failing that, he was SOL.
    There were a couple of families on the block who got bent out of shape if you ran around on their lawn, so we tried to not hit the ball on their property. And, there were folks who would lose their sh*t if the ball hit their car, but that was less obvious, so we mostly got away with that. If you got caught bouncing a line drive off of somebody’s car, you’re probably call the game and go do something else.
    And, of course, nobody slides on asphalt.
    If we wanted to actually play hardball, we could all jump on our bikes and ride over to the middle school, where there was a proper ball field. Mostly, we didn’t bother.
    Good times.

  767. “The antidote? Making free time and free play once again normal, legal and abundant:

    The areas where children once congregated for unstructured, unsupervised play are now often off limits. And so those who can afford it drive their children from one structured activity to another. Those who can’t, keep them inside. Free play and childhood independence have become relics, insurance risks, at times criminal offenses.”


    Kim Brooks in The New York Times: We Have Ruined Childhood — But a Let Grow Play Club Could Work Miracles

  768. “The antidote? Making free time and free play once again normal, legal and abundant:

    The areas where children once congregated for unstructured, unsupervised play are now often off limits. And so those who can afford it drive their children from one structured activity to another. Those who can’t, keep them inside. Free play and childhood independence have become relics, insurance risks, at times criminal offenses.”


    Kim Brooks in The New York Times: We Have Ruined Childhood — But a Let Grow Play Club Could Work Miracles

  769. “I’m familiar with some serious negative effects of steroid use. But not of Lasik. Do you know of any?”
    Best people to ask would be serious visual astronomers. AFAIK, they’re staying away from Lasik.

  770. “I’m familiar with some serious negative effects of steroid use. But not of Lasik. Do you know of any?”
    Best people to ask would be serious visual astronomers. AFAIK, they’re staying away from Lasik.

  771. Let Caster Run, from three years ago yesterday:

    Perhaps the most uncomfortable truth that this controversy forces us to confront is that there’s no such thing as a level playing field in sport. As much as we like the idea of athletes winning through hard work, guts and spirit, the fact is, much of it comes down to born talent. Most competitors never had a chance.
    In the end, the real question to ask is: What is the purpose of sport? Is it more important to provide uncomplicated stories that make us feel uplifted, or to celebrate extraordinary human effort and performance? My vote goes to the latter. Participating in sports taught me to feel powerful in my body, and I’m glad that no one put limits on how strong I could be. When Semenya takes to the line on Saturday, I’ll be cheering for her every step of the way.

    Having helped coach little kids for several years, and watched my kids’ generation as they grew from five-year-olds on the soccer field to eighteen-year-olds on the basketball court, I think that the capacity for “hard work, guts, and spirit” is a talent of sorts, perhaps more subject to environmental and psychological influences than height or weight, but certainly not entirely a matter of the athlete’s “choice.” I would add to that list: coachability. Some kids are wonderful to coach and soak up everything they can, partially making up for perhaps having less physical talent than others, some kids don’t absorb a single thing you tell them.

  772. Let Caster Run, from three years ago yesterday:

    Perhaps the most uncomfortable truth that this controversy forces us to confront is that there’s no such thing as a level playing field in sport. As much as we like the idea of athletes winning through hard work, guts and spirit, the fact is, much of it comes down to born talent. Most competitors never had a chance.
    In the end, the real question to ask is: What is the purpose of sport? Is it more important to provide uncomplicated stories that make us feel uplifted, or to celebrate extraordinary human effort and performance? My vote goes to the latter. Participating in sports taught me to feel powerful in my body, and I’m glad that no one put limits on how strong I could be. When Semenya takes to the line on Saturday, I’ll be cheering for her every step of the way.

    Having helped coach little kids for several years, and watched my kids’ generation as they grew from five-year-olds on the soccer field to eighteen-year-olds on the basketball court, I think that the capacity for “hard work, guts, and spirit” is a talent of sorts, perhaps more subject to environmental and psychological influences than height or weight, but certainly not entirely a matter of the athlete’s “choice.” I would add to that list: coachability. Some kids are wonderful to coach and soak up everything they can, partially making up for perhaps having less physical talent than others, some kids don’t absorb a single thing you tell them.

  773. On a tangentially related topic, there was an interesting documentary recently by Martina Navratilova exploring the possible repercussions on women’s sport of allowing trans women to compete therein, and it included a lot of very interesting scientific research into the various differences. She was a sensitive and empathetic explorer, with (in my opinion) a pretty rare ability and qualification to speak on this subject. No final conclusions were drawn; it’s a vexed and tortured subject.

  774. On a tangentially related topic, there was an interesting documentary recently by Martina Navratilova exploring the possible repercussions on women’s sport of allowing trans women to compete therein, and it included a lot of very interesting scientific research into the various differences. She was a sensitive and empathetic explorer, with (in my opinion) a pretty rare ability and qualification to speak on this subject. No final conclusions were drawn; it’s a vexed and tortured subject.

  775. Russell reminded me of the amount of wiffle ball and stick ball I played in the summer as a kid. (Stick ball mostly because there were neighbors from South Philly. I don’t know how much of a thing it was in the burbs otherwise.) Maybe that was why I could hit pretty well. More practice than I realized.

  776. Russell reminded me of the amount of wiffle ball and stick ball I played in the summer as a kid. (Stick ball mostly because there were neighbors from South Philly. I don’t know how much of a thing it was in the burbs otherwise.) Maybe that was why I could hit pretty well. More practice than I realized.

  777. Another game we played once in a while was half ball, which was like stick ball, but with the ball cut in half and imaginary base runners. You could play with only 2 players per team if need be.

  778. Another game we played once in a while was half ball, which was like stick ball, but with the ball cut in half and imaginary base runners. You could play with only 2 players per team if need be.

  779. Women athletes such as boxers, MMTs aren’t too happy when they’ve worked hard to be at the top of their sport. Then someone steps into the ring, beats the crap out of them and puts them in hospital.

  780. Women athletes such as boxers, MMTs aren’t too happy when they’ve worked hard to be at the top of their sport. Then someone steps into the ring, beats the crap out of them and puts them in hospital.

  783. we played kickball in my neighborhood. our giant front window was right in back of first base. my dad hated that game.

  784. we played kickball in my neighborhood. our giant front window was right in back of first base. my dad hated that game.

  785. I was just googling “The Handmaid’s Tale” and the first question under the “People Also Ask” header was “Is The Handmaid’s Tale A True Story?”
    I don’t even know what to say about that.

  786. I was just googling “The Handmaid’s Tale” and the first question under the “People Also Ask” header was “Is The Handmaid’s Tale A True Story?”
    I don’t even know what to say about that.

  789. Open thread, so I’m just reading an article from the NYT Magazine called Neil Young’s Lonely Quest to Save Music, in which the last sentence of the following paragraph made me smile, although I wouldn’t be surprised if that is not a universal reaction here:

    Neil Young is trapped in a cycle of second- and third- and fourth-guessing, which is an affliction that is not unique to his brain. To escape from this cycle, he is continually forcing himself back into the moment and then trying to capture that feeling and energy, which is a specific kind of artistic choice. That larger cycle, combined with his magnificent control over his art, is what makes him such a uniquely vital and generative artist, at an age when peers like Bob Dylan, Paul McCartney and Mick Jagger have become skeletal holograms of their former selves.

  790. Open thread, so I’m just reading an article from the NYT Magazine called Neil Young’s Lonely Quest to Save Music, in which the last sentence of the following paragraph made me smile, although I wouldn’t be surprised if that is not a universal reaction here:

    Neil Young is trapped in a cycle of second- and third- and fourth-guessing, which is an affliction that is not unique to his brain. To escape from this cycle, he is continually forcing himself back into the moment and then trying to capture that feeling and energy, which is a specific kind of artistic choice. That larger cycle, combined with his magnificent control over his art, is what makes him such a uniquely vital and generative artist, at an age when peers like Bob Dylan, Paul McCartney and Mick Jagger have become skeletal holograms of their former selves.

  791. I don’t even think of Neil Young as being a peer of those others, even though I know on a rational level that he is. He’s defying the passage of time, like he’s from some far-off corner of the universe where such things are different.

  792. I don’t even think of Neil Young as being a peer of those others, even though I know on a rational level that he is. He’s defying the passage of time, like he’s from some far-off corner of the universe where such things are different.

  793. Actually, I just finished that article, and it’s very well worth reading in full. Extremely interesting, and actually quite moving in many ways. Another extract:

    But Young hears something creepier and more insidious in the new music too. We are poisoning ourselves with degraded sound, he believes, the same way that Monsanto is poisoning our food with genetically engineered seeds. The development of our brains is led by our senses; take away too many of the necessary cues, and we are trapped inside a room with no doors or windows. Substituting smoothed-out algorithms for the contingent complexity of biological existence is bad for us, Young thinks. He doesn’t care much about being called a crank. “It’s an insult to the human mind and the human soul,” he once told Greg Kot of The Chicago Tribune. Or as Young put it to me, “I’m not content to be content.”

  794. Actually, I just finished that article, and it’s very well worth reading in full. Extremely interesting, and actually quite moving in many ways. Another extract:

    But Young hears something creepier and more insidious in the new music too. We are poisoning ourselves with degraded sound, he believes, the same way that Monsanto is poisoning our food with genetically engineered seeds. The development of our brains is led by our senses; take away too many of the necessary cues, and we are trapped inside a room with no doors or windows. Substituting smoothed-out algorithms for the contingent complexity of biological existence is bad for us, Young thinks. He doesn’t care much about being called a crank. “It’s an insult to the human mind and the human soul,” he once told Greg Kot of The Chicago Tribune. Or as Young put it to me, “I’m not content to be content.”

  795. I freaking love Neil Young. He is a self-directed dude.
    One of my favorite recorded musical moments is his solo on “Cinnamon Girl”. It is one note, repeated over and over for the whole solo, until they get back to the big riff.
    It works, because it’s Neil Young, and you know he just does not give a damn what anybody thinks about the fact that he just played a one-note guitar solo. Apparently that note just sounded great to him, so he didn’t see the need to play any others.
    I can’t think of anyone else who could pull that off.
    His playing on Cortez the Killer still takes the top of my head off, every time.

  796. I freaking love Neil Young. He is a self-directed dude.
    One of my favorite recorded musical moments is his solo on “Cinnamon Girl”. It is one note, repeated over and over for the whole solo, until they get back to the big riff.
    It works, because it’s Neil Young, and you know he just does not give a damn what anybody thinks about the fact that he just played a one-note guitar solo. Apparently that note just sounded great to him, so he didn’t see the need to play any others.
    I can’t think of anyone else who could pull that off.
    His playing on Cortez the Killer still takes the top of my head off, every time.

  797. “But Young hears something creepier and more insidious in the new music too. We are poisoning ourselves with degraded sound, he believes, …”

    At one time the Waltz “was called disgusting, dangerous, an “obscene display … confined to prostitutes and adulteresses”, and worse.”
    But I don’t pay any attention to music so I can’t claim to know anything about it.
    And no one anywhere has proven GMO seeds are poison in any way.

  798. “But Young hears something creepier and more insidious in the new music too. We are poisoning ourselves with degraded sound, he believes, …”

    At one time the Waltz “was called disgusting, dangerous, an “obscene display … confined to prostitutes and adulteresses”, and worse.”
    But I don’t pay any attention to music so I can’t claim to know anything about it.
    And no one anywhere has proven GMO seeds are poison in any way.

  801. is there any harm in telling people what they’re eating?
    Direct harm? No.
    However when there is a mass of misinformation about the subject out there? Perhaps a different story.

  802. is there any harm in telling people what they’re eating?
    Direct harm? No.
    However when there is a mass of misinformation about the subject out there? Perhaps a different story.

  807. Per e-mail I received this morning, Gov. Inslee reached the 130,000 donor milestone towards the September debates. I still don’t think he’s going to get the necessary polling numbers.

  808. Per e-mail I received this morning, Gov. Inslee reached the 130,000 donor milestone towards the September debates. I still don’t think he’s going to get the necessary polling numbers.

  809. Gov Inslee suffers, IMHO, from the perception that he’s only playing one note. He may have views on subjects other than climate change; I’d be surprised if he doesn’t. But he hasn’t managed to make an impression on anything else. And that’s not enough to get the nomination.
    (You can argue about whether it ought to be, since it’s such a huge and critical problem. But the fact is, it ain’t.)

  810. Gov Inslee suffers, IMHO, from the perception that he’s only playing one note. He may have views on subjects other than climate change; I’d be surprised if he doesn’t. But he hasn’t managed to make an impression on anything else. And that’s not enough to get the nomination.
    (You can argue about whether it ought to be, since it’s such a huge and critical problem. But the fact is, it ain’t.)

  811. President Professor Warren could put together a mighty energetic Cabinet out of her competitors. Uncle Joe would be an excellent VP redux, barring Constitutional problems — and he’d have a unique legacy to boot.
    –TP

  812. President Professor Warren could put together a mighty energetic Cabinet out of her competitors. Uncle Joe would be an excellent VP redux, barring Constitutional problems — and he’d have a unique legacy to boot.
    –TP

  815. And no one anywhere has proven GMO seeds are poison in any way.
    it will happen.
    some seed maker somewhere is going to get sloppy with their QC process and they’re aren’t going to test for some allergen or random toxic protein, and someone is going to get sick.
    we’re clever. but we make mistakes.

  816. And no one anywhere has proven GMO seeds are poison in any way.
    it will happen.
    some seed maker somewhere is going to get sloppy with their QC process and they’re aren’t going to test for some allergen or random toxic protein, and someone is going to get sick.
    we’re clever. but we make mistakes.

  817. GMO technology would seem less prone to mistakes than plant breeders using radiation and harsh chemicals to create random mutations in plant DNA.

  818. GMO technology would seem less prone to mistakes than plant breeders using radiation and harsh chemicals to create random mutations in plant DNA.

  819. oh hey, look: an anti-Semite:

    And I think any Jewish people that vote for a Democrat I think it shows either a total lack of knowledge or great disloyalty.

    Trump

  820. oh hey, look: an anti-Semite:

    And I think any Jewish people that vote for a Democrat I think it shows either a total lack of knowledge or great disloyalty.

    Trump

  823. However when there is a mass of misinformation about the subject out there?
    Mass misinformation is as american as P.T. Barnum.

  824. However when there is a mass of misinformation about the subject out there?
    Mass misinformation is as american as P.T. Barnum.

  825. I’m about to start a new biography of P.T. Barnum.
    Seemed topical to me.
    This just in:
    Mentally ill Circus Ringleader in White House gags and then shoots his mental health experts out of a cannon.
    https://beta.washingtonpost.com/health/after-trump-blames-mental-illness-for-mass-shootings-health-agencies-ordered-to-hold-all-posts-on-issue/2019/08/20/c4030e4c-c370-11e9-b5e4-54aa56d5b7ce_story.html
    There won’t be enough savage gun violence in America until an election when there are NO republicans/conservatives left alive to run for office.
    Clearly, the only clinical mental illness apparent during all of the mass gun murders these past 15 years and counting are the murderers’ insistence on butchering all of the wrong people and not targeting the motherfuckers who need killing.
    In World War I, Jewish German Officer Hugo Gutmann recommended, successfully, the award of the Iron Cross to his subordinate, one Corporal Adolph Hitler.
    The greatest cache of mass killing instruments ever assembled, greater than anything Genghis Khan dreamed of, was available close at hand for Gutmann to kill Hitler instead right at that moment.
    Instead, 29 million or so enthusiastic bystanders took it for God and Country.
    In just 4 1/2 years, the cultured, educated, delicate flowers of western civilization put down their Schubert and Goethe, Dickens and Austen, and Flaubert and Balzac, and their Twain and Whitman and slaughtered 29 million human beings.
    Hitler lived for a second chance at breaking that record.
    It took barbarian Khan most of his life to top that number, but he had to do it manually, so there is that.

  826. I’m about to start a new biography of P.T. Barnum.
    Seemed topical to me.
    This just in:
    Mentally ill Circus Ringleader in White House gags and then shoots his mental health experts out of a cannon.
    https://beta.washingtonpost.com/health/after-trump-blames-mental-illness-for-mass-shootings-health-agencies-ordered-to-hold-all-posts-on-issue/2019/08/20/c4030e4c-c370-11e9-b5e4-54aa56d5b7ce_story.html
    There won’t be enough savage gun violence in America until an election when there are NO republicans/conservatives left alive to run for office.
    Clearly, the only clinical mental illness apparent during all of the mass gun murders these past 15 years and counting are the murderers’ insistence on butchering all of the wrong people and not targeting the motherfuckers who need killing.
    In World War I, Jewish German Officer Hugo Gutmann recommended, successfully, the award of the Iron Cross to his subordinate, one Corporal Adolph Hitler.
    The greatest cache of mass killing instruments ever assembled, greater than anything Genghis Khan dreamed of, was available close at hand for Gutmann to kill Hitler instead right at that moment.
    Instead, 29 million or so enthusiastic bystanders took it for God and Country.
    In just 4 1/2 years, the cultured, educated, delicate flowers of western civilization put down their Schubert and Goethe, Dickens and Austen, and Flaubert and Balzac, and their Twain and Whitman and slaughtered 29 million human beings.
    Hitler lived for a second chance at breaking that record.
    It took barbarian Khan most of his life to top that number, but he had to do it manually, so there is that.

  827. The greatest cache of mass killing instruments ever assembled, greater than anything Genghis Khan dreamed of, was available close at hand for Gutmann to kill Hitler instead right at that moment.
    There is an old joke about a Jew who was, in 1935, walking along the Spree River in Berlin when he heard desperate cries:
    “Help! I’m drowning.”
    The fellow jumped in the river and dragged out the man, who announced:
    “Thank you. Do you know who I am? I’m Adolf Hitler, the Chancellor of Germany. You saved my life. I’ll give you anything you want. Just name it.”
    After a pause, came the response:
    “Just promise me you’ll never breathe a word about this.”

  828. The greatest cache of mass killing instruments ever assembled, greater than anything Genghis Khan dreamed of, was available close at hand for Gutmann to kill Hitler instead right at that moment.
    There is an old joke about a Jew who was, in 1935, walking along the Spree River in Berlin when he heard desperate cries:
    “Help! I’m drowning.”
    The fellow jumped in the river and dragged out the man, who announced:
    “Thank you. Do you know who I am? I’m Adolf Hitler, the Chancellor of Germany. You saved my life. I’ll give you anything you want. Just name it.”
    After a pause, came the response:
    “Just promise me you’ll never breathe a word about this.”

  829. Without Yiddish/Jewish humor, human tragedy wouldn’t be bearable.
    It still isn’t, but at least it’s readable.
    The punch line of the Gutmann/Hitler event, recounted in Joseph Persico history of the last moments of World War I from the perspective of the cannon fodder in the trenches, “11th Month, 11th Day, 11th Hour”, is that the German High Command wouldn’t recommend Hitler for promotion, despite his alleged heroics, because they didn’t perceive him to be leadership material.
    Like p’s professors at Wharton.

  830. Without Yiddish/Jewish humor, human tragedy wouldn’t be bearable.
    It still isn’t, but at least it’s readable.
    The punch line of the Gutmann/Hitler event, recounted in Joseph Persico history of the last moments of World War I from the perspective of the cannon fodder in the trenches, “11th Month, 11th Day, 11th Hour”, is that the German High Command wouldn’t recommend Hitler for promotion, despite his alleged heroics, because they didn’t perceive him to be leadership material.
    Like p’s professors at Wharton.

  835. Somebody should explain to him the most of the people in Greenland are a light shade of brown. Kind of a pale khaki color. Definitely not plain white.
    Its not ‘Norway, only closer’.

  836. Somebody should explain to him the most of the people in Greenland are a light shade of brown. Kind of a pale khaki color. Definitely not plain white.
    Its not ‘Norway, only closer’.

  837. Denmark should begin exploratory negotiations with Russia to deploy the latter’s latest nuclear-tipped ICBMs in Greenland aimed at the heartland of America.
    Don’t fly over it, fly at it.
    So should Mexico. Line them up along our southern border and aim them at the red states.
    If real Americans won’t take care of our own fucking problem … killing the subhuman Republican Party, the most dangerous organization on Earth led by the most dangerous man on Earth, then the rest of the world should take the initiative.
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/wayne-allyn-root-trump-retweets-conspiracy-theorist-calling-him-second-coming-of-god
    I guess that closes the deal for Rod Dreher’s vote.
    Fuck all conservatives. Fuck all Republicans.
    Your scum remnant will pay back those tax cuts, and some, in flesh.
    A preview of the next SOTU:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vcflwHEHg8
    The conservative movement did this to us and the world.
    Fuck off.

  838. Denmark should begin exploratory negotiations with Russia to deploy the latter’s latest nuclear-tipped ICBMs in Greenland aimed at the heartland of America.
    Don’t fly over it, fly at it.
    So should Mexico. Line them up along our southern border and aim them at the red states.
    If real Americans won’t take care of our own fucking problem … killing the subhuman Republican Party, the most dangerous organization on Earth led by the most dangerous man on Earth, then the rest of the world should take the initiative.
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/wayne-allyn-root-trump-retweets-conspiracy-theorist-calling-him-second-coming-of-god
    I guess that closes the deal for Rod Dreher’s vote.
    Fuck all conservatives. Fuck all Republicans.
    Your scum remnant will pay back those tax cuts, and some, in flesh.
    A preview of the next SOTU:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vcflwHEHg8
    The conservative movement did this to us and the world.
    Fuck off.

  845. “Proof that there is no longer anyone sane and influential in Trump’s administration.”
    No, you have it about 2/3rds wrong.
    They are flat out demented, psychopathic lunatics, but extremely and mesmerically influential to the point of a morbid, lethal national emergency, about which the Constitution offers zip in the guidance category.
    While we’re shoplifting Greenland, I propose changing the name of “America” to “Mesmerica”.
    I shall await your response and all further communication on the matter hinges upon your full agreement.
    Please fall to the negotiating posture: on your knees.
    Tom Barrack will supply you with knee pads and protocol tips.

  846. “Proof that there is no longer anyone sane and influential in Trump’s administration.”
    No, you have it about 2/3rds wrong.
    They are flat out demented, psychopathic lunatics, but extremely and mesmerically influential to the point of a morbid, lethal national emergency, about which the Constitution offers zip in the guidance category.
    While we’re shoplifting Greenland, I propose changing the name of “America” to “Mesmerica”.
    I shall await your response and all further communication on the matter hinges upon your full agreement.
    Please fall to the negotiating posture: on your knees.
    Tom Barrack will supply you with knee pads and protocol tips.

  847. While we’re shoplifting Greenland, I propose changing the name of “America” to “Mesmerica”.
    Agreed, from here on Airstrip One.

  848. While we’re shoplifting Greenland, I propose changing the name of “America” to “Mesmerica”.
    Agreed, from here on Airstrip One.

  853. I love the smell of Orwell in the morning.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L2qXzMS9Tg
    Smells like victory.
    There is a 24-year-old American Peace Corps Volunteer/movie extra somewhere in that scene freshly disembarked from a Huey transport on that east coast Luzon beach firing M-16 blanks at friend and foe alike.
    I should get fake VA benefits for the hearing loss alone.

  854. I love the smell of Orwell in the morning.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L2qXzMS9Tg
    Smells like victory.
    There is a 24-year-old American Peace Corps Volunteer/movie extra somewhere in that scene freshly disembarked from a Huey transport on that east coast Luzon beach firing M-16 blanks at friend and foe alike.
    I should get fake VA benefits for the hearing loss alone.

  855. Somebody should explain to him the most of the people in Greenland are a light shade of brown. Kind of a pale khaki color. Definitely not plain white.
    Its not ‘Norway, only closer’.
    Well it may be that he sees them as cheap labor for his planned resort there. But it seems more likely that he just figures to have Steven Miller send the non-white ones “back where they came from”. Whether he’d figure that was South America, or would actually realize that East Asia would be more historically accurate — betting on the former.
    It’s not like he’s likely to have a clue about the demographics anyway. Or would believe anyone in his administration who tried to tell him.

  856. Somebody should explain to him the most of the people in Greenland are a light shade of brown. Kind of a pale khaki color. Definitely not plain white.
    Its not ‘Norway, only closer’.
    Well it may be that he sees them as cheap labor for his planned resort there. But it seems more likely that he just figures to have Steven Miller send the non-white ones “back where they came from”. Whether he’d figure that was South America, or would actually realize that East Asia would be more historically accurate — betting on the former.
    It’s not like he’s likely to have a clue about the demographics anyway. Or would believe anyone in his administration who tried to tell him.

  857. i’m sure the Greenland shit is all about rare-earth mining. but why not just make nice with Denmark? why does everything he does have to be handled in the worst way possible?
    i know: because he’s the worst President possible.

  858. i’m sure the Greenland shit is all about rare-earth mining. but why not just make nice with Denmark? why does everything he does have to be handled in the worst way possible?
    i know: because he’s the worst President possible.

  859. I knew the problem was bad. But somehow, I had missed this.

    The rate of violent gun deaths in the United States is nine times higher than in Canada, 73 times higher than in the United Kingdom, 88 times higher than in South Korea, 110 times higher than in Japan. The rate is even higher in the United States than in Iraq or Afghanistan. [emphasis added]

    Well at least the NRA seems to be imploding. It may not cost them much when it comes to their influence with the GOP. But it may at least give them less muscle when it comes to defeating Democrats who want something done.
    Which we are already seeing in the behavior of the candidates. I mean, have any of the would-be Democratic Presidential candidates felt impelled to demonstrate their love of hunting? As opposed to a decade or two ago, when it seemed to be de rigueur.

  860. I knew the problem was bad. But somehow, I had missed this.

    The rate of violent gun deaths in the United States is nine times higher than in Canada, 73 times higher than in the United Kingdom, 88 times higher than in South Korea, 110 times higher than in Japan. The rate is even higher in the United States than in Iraq or Afghanistan. [emphasis added]

    Well at least the NRA seems to be imploding. It may not cost them much when it comes to their influence with the GOP. But it may at least give them less muscle when it comes to defeating Democrats who want something done.
    Which we are already seeing in the behavior of the candidates. I mean, have any of the would-be Democratic Presidential candidates felt impelled to demonstrate their love of hunting? As opposed to a decade or two ago, when it seemed to be de rigueur.

  863. “i’m sure the Greenland shit is all about rare-earth mining. but why not just make nice with Denmark? why does everything he does have to be handled in the worst way possible?”
    No, it’s full-on look-over-there diversion. The egress. Chaff shot into the air to lock up the radar of incoming. A thick curtain of squid ink to further blind all of the other bottom feeding filth in this country.
    And now, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain and cast your eyes over to ring number two, for a little nimble soft shoe from one of our freak show cast of a million bullshit-spewing grifters, who will tango the night away while nailing the landing of his head fully up his ass.
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/sean-spicer-dancing-stars

  864. “i’m sure the Greenland shit is all about rare-earth mining. but why not just make nice with Denmark? why does everything he does have to be handled in the worst way possible?”
    No, it’s full-on look-over-there diversion. The egress. Chaff shot into the air to lock up the radar of incoming. A thick curtain of squid ink to further blind all of the other bottom feeding filth in this country.
    And now, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain and cast your eyes over to ring number two, for a little nimble soft shoe from one of our freak show cast of a million bullshit-spewing grifters, who will tango the night away while nailing the landing of his head fully up his ass.
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/sean-spicer-dancing-stars

  865. Please follow the clown car into our house of enemy thrills and poke the Chink in a cage with plastic straws ($20 dollars for each straw from our scantily-clad attendant; you may call him Larry)) for your amusement until such time as the yellow peril writes me a beautiful letter ceding to all of my demands, which he will mail to me in the final days of the 2020 Presidential campaign in order to juke stock markets around the world in honor of my Godhead, adorned with jewels made of paste and promissory notes.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+days+he+will+reach+trade+deal+with+china&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS774US774&oq=trump+days+he+will+reach+trade+deal+with+china&aqs=chrome..69i57.25596j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
    Keep poking.
    OK, now stop poking. We have him right where …
    Whoops, now start again.
    I’ll tell you when to stop.
    Kellyanne, keep the engine running and the lube ready.
    If a Democrat wins the election, the day after the election the conservative movement and their instrument of mass destruction, p, will implement the fifth risk, defaulting on the entire federal debt.
    Let’s see Democrats try to govern now, various Mitches will crow.
    Then the savage killing will begin.

  866. Please follow the clown car into our house of enemy thrills and poke the Chink in a cage with plastic straws ($20 dollars for each straw from our scantily-clad attendant; you may call him Larry)) for your amusement until such time as the yellow peril writes me a beautiful letter ceding to all of my demands, which he will mail to me in the final days of the 2020 Presidential campaign in order to juke stock markets around the world in honor of my Godhead, adorned with jewels made of paste and promissory notes.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+days+he+will+reach+trade+deal+with+china&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS774US774&oq=trump+days+he+will+reach+trade+deal+with+china&aqs=chrome..69i57.25596j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
    Keep poking.
    OK, now stop poking. We have him right where …
    Whoops, now start again.
    I’ll tell you when to stop.
    Kellyanne, keep the engine running and the lube ready.
    If a Democrat wins the election, the day after the election the conservative movement and their instrument of mass destruction, p, will implement the fifth risk, defaulting on the entire federal debt.
    Let’s see Democrats try to govern now, various Mitches will crow.
    Then the savage killing will begin.

  867. “I knew the problem was bad.”
    However, Greenland is tops in the world for suicide per capita by firearm.
    I expect we’ll see an uptick in that rate in the coming months as p pursues the theft of the land mass.
    The U.S. is second.
    https://science.howstuffworks.com/half-worlds-gun-related-deaths-occur-in-6-countries.htm
    They’ll fit right in as the 51st state.
    I expect the NRA looked at that stat and rubbed their reptilian claws together in anticipation.

  868. “I knew the problem was bad.”
    However, Greenland is tops in the world for suicide per capita by firearm.
    I expect we’ll see an uptick in that rate in the coming months as p pursues the theft of the land mass.
    The U.S. is second.
    https://science.howstuffworks.com/half-worlds-gun-related-deaths-occur-in-6-countries.htm
    They’ll fit right in as the 51st state.
    I expect the NRA looked at that stat and rubbed their reptilian claws together in anticipation.

  871. Parkland survivors introduce their “Peace Plan.”
    I love those kids.
    *****
    On a nitpicky note, per the Max Boot piece linked in wj’s 12:05:
    One of my very many grammar and usage pet peeves: “73 times higher than” means something different from “73 times as many as.” Based on the charts in the article linked in the Max Boot piece, Boot says the former and means the latter. Not that it matters a whole lot with numbers like these, but there are times when using one for the other can be very misleading. People shouldn’t be allowed to throw statistics around if they can’t be equivalently precise with their language. Lies, damned lies…..
    In a different misuse of numbers (IMHO), this time in the publicity for “Bowling for Columbine,” Michael Moore breathlessly compared absolute numbers of gun deaths in Canada and the US, without bother to mention that US population at the time was roughly nine times Canada’s. Our gun death statistics are bad enough, but to me that doesn’t justify the dishonesty of implying that they’re nine times as bad as they are. I don’t like to be lied to by my own side any more than by the other side.

  872. Parkland survivors introduce their “Peace Plan.”
    I love those kids.
    *****
    On a nitpicky note, per the Max Boot piece linked in wj’s 12:05:
    One of my very many grammar and usage pet peeves: “73 times higher than” means something different from “73 times as many as.” Based on the charts in the article linked in the Max Boot piece, Boot says the former and means the latter. Not that it matters a whole lot with numbers like these, but there are times when using one for the other can be very misleading. People shouldn’t be allowed to throw statistics around if they can’t be equivalently precise with their language. Lies, damned lies…..
    In a different misuse of numbers (IMHO), this time in the publicity for “Bowling for Columbine,” Michael Moore breathlessly compared absolute numbers of gun deaths in Canada and the US, without bother to mention that US population at the time was roughly nine times Canada’s. Our gun death statistics are bad enough, but to me that doesn’t justify the dishonesty of implying that they’re nine times as bad as they are. I don’t like to be lied to by my own side any more than by the other side.

  875. …breathlessly compared absolute numbers of gun deaths in Canada and the US, without bother to mention that US population at the time was roughly nine times Canada’s.
    I am regularly irritated by maps showing the geographic distribution of some variable or another that are for all practical purposes duplicates of a US population density map.

  876. …breathlessly compared absolute numbers of gun deaths in Canada and the US, without bother to mention that US population at the time was roughly nine times Canada’s.
    I am regularly irritated by maps showing the geographic distribution of some variable or another that are for all practical purposes duplicates of a US population density map.

  877. People shouldn’t be allowed to throw statistics around if they can’t be equivalently precise with their language.
    I agree with you 110% (or maybe 1000%) … literally.
    (Someone is going to start using 1010% soon, because the other ones will just mean 100% in people’s minds, and that’s just not good enough.)

  878. People shouldn’t be allowed to throw statistics around if they can’t be equivalently precise with their language.
    I agree with you 110% (or maybe 1000%) … literally.
    (Someone is going to start using 1010% soon, because the other ones will just mean 100% in people’s minds, and that’s just not good enough.)

  883. It’s going to be against the law to obey the law, particularly the laws of the governments closest to the lawbreakers:
    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trump-is-reportedly-working-to-prevent-more-automakers-from-emissions-rollback-defection-2019-08-21?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
    The conservative movement is working on objective, unbiased, bi-ideological signage for the Nation, since all laws made by government are just someone’s opinion.
    No Smoking, side by side with Smoke ‘Em If You Got ‘Em
    Please Don’t Litter, paired with Nature Is Your Garbage Dump, and A Plastic Straw Discarded A Day Keeps The Turtles At Bay
    Study Hall, No Talking .. and Moving Target Range, Lock and Load
    No Whistling in the Nave, alongside Please Cock Your Weapon Before the Offering Plate Is Passed
    Deer Crossing … Please Increase Speed Through the Venison Dispensary
    Yield … Gentleman, Start Your Engines
    Only You Can Prevent Forest Fires, balanced with All Others, Please Burn the Forest Down With Impunity, it’s yours, after all.
    On the Washington Mall.. No Urination or Defecation On Or In The Vicinity Of The Monuments ….. with small print …. Let Roosevelt Be Your Toilet and Direct All Streams at the MLK Monument
    Please do not flush condoms and female hygiene products down the loo ….. In the First Place, Whaddya doin, raping women with a condom? But feel Free To Flush all Hand Grenades and Pins Separately, and Save The Swirlies For The Boy Girlies
    One Way Street …. Get The Fuck Outta The Way
    Children At Play …. Aim Low
    Don’t Shoot The Good Nazis …. Bake wedding cakes for the Bad Nazis, or else
    Danger. High Explosives …… Please Use to Kill The Other, but Please Close Gate Afterwards

  884. It’s going to be against the law to obey the law, particularly the laws of the governments closest to the lawbreakers:
    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trump-is-reportedly-working-to-prevent-more-automakers-from-emissions-rollback-defection-2019-08-21?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
    The conservative movement is working on objective, unbiased, bi-ideological signage for the Nation, since all laws made by government are just someone’s opinion.
    No Smoking, side by side with Smoke ‘Em If You Got ‘Em
    Please Don’t Litter, paired with Nature Is Your Garbage Dump, and A Plastic Straw Discarded A Day Keeps The Turtles At Bay
    Study Hall, No Talking .. and Moving Target Range, Lock and Load
    No Whistling in the Nave, alongside Please Cock Your Weapon Before the Offering Plate Is Passed
    Deer Crossing … Please Increase Speed Through the Venison Dispensary
    Yield … Gentleman, Start Your Engines
    Only You Can Prevent Forest Fires, balanced with All Others, Please Burn the Forest Down With Impunity, it’s yours, after all.
    On the Washington Mall.. No Urination or Defecation On Or In The Vicinity Of The Monuments ….. with small print …. Let Roosevelt Be Your Toilet and Direct All Streams at the MLK Monument
    Please do not flush condoms and female hygiene products down the loo ….. In the First Place, Whaddya doin, raping women with a condom? But feel Free To Flush all Hand Grenades and Pins Separately, and Save The Swirlies For The Boy Girlies
    One Way Street …. Get The Fuck Outta The Way
    Children At Play …. Aim Low
    Don’t Shoot The Good Nazis …. Bake wedding cakes for the Bad Nazis, or else
    Danger. High Explosives …… Please Use to Kill The Other, but Please Close Gate Afterwards

  885. People shouldn’t be allowed to throw statistics around if they can’t be equivalently precise with their language.
    We can’t all be Nate Silver. But yeah, a little better understanding of statistics would be nice.
    Probably do the country good to quit trying to teach calculus in high school, and instead give everybody a solid grounding in statistics.

  886. People shouldn’t be allowed to throw statistics around if they can’t be equivalently precise with their language.
    We can’t all be Nate Silver. But yeah, a little better understanding of statistics would be nice.
    Probably do the country good to quit trying to teach calculus in high school, and instead give everybody a solid grounding in statistics.

  887. Please Don’t Litter, paired with Nature Is Your Garbage Dump, and A Plastic Straw Discarded A Day Keeps The Turtles At Bay
    Has it occurred to you that we could quit fighting the people of Nevada, who don’t want a nuclear waste storage facility in their neighborhood? Instead, we could announce that the stories about the dangers of nuclear waste are Fake News. And then store the stuff in Wyoming or Oklahoma or other deep red state. Win-win!

  888. Please Don’t Litter, paired with Nature Is Your Garbage Dump, and A Plastic Straw Discarded A Day Keeps The Turtles At Bay
    Has it occurred to you that we could quit fighting the people of Nevada, who don’t want a nuclear waste storage facility in their neighborhood? Instead, we could announce that the stories about the dangers of nuclear waste are Fake News. And then store the stuff in Wyoming or Oklahoma or other deep red state. Win-win!

  889. P canceled his Denmark trip because Barack Obama will be there at around the same time and will be upstaging the nigger-lynching racist lout, the personal representative of all nigger-lynching racists, liberal Jew-hating, anti-semitic, Mexican-caging, murderers of post-born central american children in Mesmerica … in a word, republicans …. with ticker tape parades.
    Denmark is now thinking of ceding Greenland to Obama personally and gratis.

  890. P canceled his Denmark trip because Barack Obama will be there at around the same time and will be upstaging the nigger-lynching racist lout, the personal representative of all nigger-lynching racists, liberal Jew-hating, anti-semitic, Mexican-caging, murderers of post-born central american children in Mesmerica … in a word, republicans …. with ticker tape parades.
    Denmark is now thinking of ceding Greenland to Obama personally and gratis.

  891. I wonder whether Trump looked at Greenland on a Mercator map and thought he could more than double the land area of the US by acquiring it.

  892. I wonder whether Trump looked at Greenland on a Mercator map and thought he could more than double the land area of the US by acquiring it.

  893. Why is the non-coastal west so solidly ahead of the rest of the country in suicide?
    I’d actually like to know, if anyone has information.
    Also, from one of the count’s links:

    El Salvador recorded the highest gun-related death rate in the world at 39.2 deaths per 100,000, followed by Venezuela (38.7), Guatemala (32.3), and Greenland (25.9).

    Also in the top five, if I’m not mistaken, is Honduras.
    The immigrants coming to the US along the southern border who are causing us all such heartburn are generally from El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras.
    Why the surge in immigration? People don’t want to sit around waiting to be shot.
    Not everything is complicated.

  894. Why is the non-coastal west so solidly ahead of the rest of the country in suicide?
    I’d actually like to know, if anyone has information.
    Also, from one of the count’s links:

    El Salvador recorded the highest gun-related death rate in the world at 39.2 deaths per 100,000, followed by Venezuela (38.7), Guatemala (32.3), and Greenland (25.9).

    Also in the top five, if I’m not mistaken, is Honduras.
    The immigrants coming to the US along the southern border who are causing us all such heartburn are generally from El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras.
    Why the surge in immigration? People don’t want to sit around waiting to be shot.
    Not everything is complicated.

  895. Not everything is complicated.
    There’s something else that’s not complicated: there are a whole lot of people who don’t care. They’re the same types who didn’t care about German death camps. Trains run on time/Tax cuts. Same/same.

  896. Not everything is complicated.
    There’s something else that’s not complicated: there are a whole lot of people who don’t care. They’re the same types who didn’t care about German death camps. Trains run on time/Tax cuts. Same/same.

  897. We can’t all be Nate Silver. But yeah, a little better understanding of statistics would be nice.
    It would, but all you need most of the time is some basic algebra and a basic, albeit honest, presentation of the context.
    Dean Baker at Beat The Press pushes this point repeatedly.

  898. We can’t all be Nate Silver. But yeah, a little better understanding of statistics would be nice.
    It would, but all you need most of the time is some basic algebra and a basic, albeit honest, presentation of the context.
    Dean Baker at Beat The Press pushes this point repeatedly.

  899. “Why is the non-coastal west so solidly ahead of the rest of the country in suicide?”
    The lonesome high prairie with endless horizons and nowhere to go.
    The inexorable hot and cold winds in your face all of the time.
    That interminable hard blue sky day after day after day.
    Long winters in the north.
    It takes some huge number of acreage to feed one head of cattle out here. Same amount it takes to feed the happy soul. Forage runs out.
    The wife, bored to death, moved into town. Took the kids with her.
    No gold in them thar hills, after all.
    Seekers, reprobates, the hard-to-please, desperate people on the run from the slick coasts and cities finding nothing but destiny unmanifest and alone with the unquenchable emptiness howling inside.
    I knew a cowboy heard tell who lived inside the carcass of his horse for months after the beast fell dead straightaway underneath him in the dead of winter.
    Don’t know what happened to him. Comanche got him, most probably.
    Or wolves.
    Crows, magpies, and coyotes got the leavins.
    I don’t know, partner.
    Good question.
    Best not think about it.

  900. “Why is the non-coastal west so solidly ahead of the rest of the country in suicide?”
    The lonesome high prairie with endless horizons and nowhere to go.
    The inexorable hot and cold winds in your face all of the time.
    That interminable hard blue sky day after day after day.
    Long winters in the north.
    It takes some huge number of acreage to feed one head of cattle out here. Same amount it takes to feed the happy soul. Forage runs out.
    The wife, bored to death, moved into town. Took the kids with her.
    No gold in them thar hills, after all.
    Seekers, reprobates, the hard-to-please, desperate people on the run from the slick coasts and cities finding nothing but destiny unmanifest and alone with the unquenchable emptiness howling inside.
    I knew a cowboy heard tell who lived inside the carcass of his horse for months after the beast fell dead straightaway underneath him in the dead of winter.
    Don’t know what happened to him. Comanche got him, most probably.
    Or wolves.
    Crows, magpies, and coyotes got the leavins.
    I don’t know, partner.
    Good question.
    Best not think about it.

  901. You got a carbine above the fireplace and a pistol in the drawer, it don’t take much to do the ugly to oneself.
    You’d be surprised how much time can be taken up with repeated games of Russian Roulette, shots of rotgut downed after each close call, with the winter wind howling outside the door.
    Guns per capita, I ‘spect, is the story.
    You don’t hear much about a guy stabbing himself to death out chere, though there was that one fella outside a Worland few years back.
    Whittled himself right down to the bone just a setting there on his front stoop.
    Unhappy in love, heard tell.

  902. You got a carbine above the fireplace and a pistol in the drawer, it don’t take much to do the ugly to oneself.
    You’d be surprised how much time can be taken up with repeated games of Russian Roulette, shots of rotgut downed after each close call, with the winter wind howling outside the door.
    Guns per capita, I ‘spect, is the story.
    You don’t hear much about a guy stabbing himself to death out chere, though there was that one fella outside a Worland few years back.
    Whittled himself right down to the bone just a setting there on his front stoop.
    Unhappy in love, heard tell.

  905. Why is the non-coastal west so solidly ahead of the rest of the country in suicide?
    This Washington Post graphic suggests two thoughts: (1) it’s gotten steadily worse since 2005; and (2) it’s very much a rural thing.
    There are lots of possibilities. Living in those rural areas may mean, for example, that an ambulance is 45 minutes away — no one does empty like the rural West — and so attempts are more successful*. First responders, when they do get there, are likely to be more poorly equipped (eg, no naloxone injectors)*. There’s some correlation with where the population is declining. Western states have very pronounced urban/rural divides and it is clear that the rural areas are almost certainly never going to catch up economically with the urban/suburban areas. The northern states in that bunch have by far the highest number of gun dealers per capita in the country.
    * Drawing on my time with the Colorado legislative staff, heart attacks in rural Colorado are much more likely to be fatal than an attack of similar severity in the suburbs. Some rural areas of Colorado have been begging the state (ie, the urban/suburban areas) to fund minimally-equipped ambulances because that’s better than no ambulance service at all.

  906. Why is the non-coastal west so solidly ahead of the rest of the country in suicide?
    This Washington Post graphic suggests two thoughts: (1) it’s gotten steadily worse since 2005; and (2) it’s very much a rural thing.
    There are lots of possibilities. Living in those rural areas may mean, for example, that an ambulance is 45 minutes away — no one does empty like the rural West — and so attempts are more successful*. First responders, when they do get there, are likely to be more poorly equipped (eg, no naloxone injectors)*. There’s some correlation with where the population is declining. Western states have very pronounced urban/rural divides and it is clear that the rural areas are almost certainly never going to catch up economically with the urban/suburban areas. The northern states in that bunch have by far the highest number of gun dealers per capita in the country.
    * Drawing on my time with the Colorado legislative staff, heart attacks in rural Colorado are much more likely to be fatal than an attack of similar severity in the suburbs. Some rural areas of Colorado have been begging the state (ie, the urban/suburban areas) to fund minimally-equipped ambulances because that’s better than no ambulance service at all.

  907. You too can create fake news:
    “John D. Thullen, the chairman of the state’s board of zoning appeals, said Tuesday that the board found the proposed site “inadequate and inappropriate” for a mixed-use development.
    The proposed design by Drexel University-based Zlotko had drawn interest from several investors based in suburban Philadelphia. The land’s location — a little north of the city’s urban core — and its relative proximity to the city’s airport make it appealing to an airline with a large fleet of aircraft.
    “We believe that it will do nothing but exacerbate the existing congestion in the center of the city,” Thullen wrote to the Planning Board and residents.
    Other members of the board disagreed, saying that the development is needed because the city lacks a viable public transportation system and that the site is ideal for housing growth.
    Residents of Philadelphia City Hall are watching developments with concern.
    Mayor Jim Kenney said the plan to build apartments near the Philadelphia Convention Center is “not good enough.” Kenney and state Transportation Commissioner Kevin Chilton have sent letters to airport officials urging…”
    Talk to Transformer: See how a modern neural network completes your text. Type a custom snippet or try one of the examples.

  908. You too can create fake news:
    “John D. Thullen, the chairman of the state’s board of zoning appeals, said Tuesday that the board found the proposed site “inadequate and inappropriate” for a mixed-use development.
    The proposed design by Drexel University-based Zlotko had drawn interest from several investors based in suburban Philadelphia. The land’s location — a little north of the city’s urban core — and its relative proximity to the city’s airport make it appealing to an airline with a large fleet of aircraft.
    “We believe that it will do nothing but exacerbate the existing congestion in the center of the city,” Thullen wrote to the Planning Board and residents.
    Other members of the board disagreed, saying that the development is needed because the city lacks a viable public transportation system and that the site is ideal for housing growth.
    Residents of Philadelphia City Hall are watching developments with concern.
    Mayor Jim Kenney said the plan to build apartments near the Philadelphia Convention Center is “not good enough.” Kenney and state Transportation Commissioner Kevin Chilton have sent letters to airport officials urging…”
    Talk to Transformer: See how a modern neural network completes your text. Type a custom snippet or try one of the examples.

  909. Inslee drops out of the race. Hickenlooper announces he’s running for the US Senate seat in Colorado. In a poll last week where the question was Hickenlooper vs Gardner, Hickenlooper led 51-38%. Too early to have heard anything from the other candidates for the Democratic nomination in Colorado — there’s a bunch of them, and I get e-mail from them all.

  910. Inslee drops out of the race. Hickenlooper announces he’s running for the US Senate seat in Colorado. In a poll last week where the question was Hickenlooper vs Gardner, Hickenlooper led 51-38%. Too early to have heard anything from the other candidates for the Democratic nomination in Colorado — there’s a bunch of them, and I get e-mail from them all.

  911. Good for Hickenlooper.
    Philadelphia?
    I’m a Pennsylvanian, but never set foot in the City of Brotherly Love and Sisterly Affection, certainly not since busybody Santorum cast a suspicious eye askance at that queer-sounding moniker, yer durn tootin.
    Course, that wouldn’t stop me from having an opinion about congestion in their fair city. Like Santorum, seems the farther away those people stay away from each other, the less patty fingers among em the rest of us have to worry about.
    Spread out, I’d command, but not too far, lest the dark little cloud of loneliness settle over ya and getcha to overthinkin things on the downside, if I may wax existential for a minute.

  912. Good for Hickenlooper.
    Philadelphia?
    I’m a Pennsylvanian, but never set foot in the City of Brotherly Love and Sisterly Affection, certainly not since busybody Santorum cast a suspicious eye askance at that queer-sounding moniker, yer durn tootin.
    Course, that wouldn’t stop me from having an opinion about congestion in their fair city. Like Santorum, seems the farther away those people stay away from each other, the less patty fingers among em the rest of us have to worry about.
    Spread out, I’d command, but not too far, lest the dark little cloud of loneliness settle over ya and getcha to overthinkin things on the downside, if I may wax existential for a minute.

  913. More on Inslee:
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/governor-jay-inslee-on-why-he-s-dropping-out-of-the-2020-white-house-race/ar-AAG8BvM
    Course now, his issue, global climate change is dead moot now that American, Chinese, and Russian assholes, who have much more in common among themselves than with any of the rest of humanity, have their eyes on the jackpot and within grasp, and are monetizing melting glaciers and polar ice packs.
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/heres-why-trump-wants-to-buy-greenland/ar-AAG8qSp
    We’re fucked.
    Global Climate Change.
    The first Hoax that became concretely inevitable.
    You get the feeling p, by calling the issue a hoax by the Chinese, was just running cover for the Chinese and the Russians to make headway with their claims to the place.
    It’s like finding out the Egress is actually a door leading nowhere.
    Remember when the idea of the internet didn’t include mass advertising forced/hosed your gullet constantly and mass surveillance.
    Weren’t we told that? By doe-eyed theorists.
    Your ass. Where they put the price sticker.
    You remember when you could sign up to block unwanted calls on your cell phone? Received a dozen yesterday and when I block them, the calls keep coming from the same number or with one digit changed.
    I have the feeling the sign-up list didn’t block anything, but was sold to the highest bidder.
    Too many fuckers fucking, and not enough Lorraine Bobbits among us with scissors to nip it in the bud.

  914. More on Inslee:
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/governor-jay-inslee-on-why-he-s-dropping-out-of-the-2020-white-house-race/ar-AAG8BvM
    Course now, his issue, global climate change is dead moot now that American, Chinese, and Russian assholes, who have much more in common among themselves than with any of the rest of humanity, have their eyes on the jackpot and within grasp, and are monetizing melting glaciers and polar ice packs.
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/heres-why-trump-wants-to-buy-greenland/ar-AAG8qSp
    We’re fucked.
    Global Climate Change.
    The first Hoax that became concretely inevitable.
    You get the feeling p, by calling the issue a hoax by the Chinese, was just running cover for the Chinese and the Russians to make headway with their claims to the place.
    It’s like finding out the Egress is actually a door leading nowhere.
    Remember when the idea of the internet didn’t include mass advertising forced/hosed your gullet constantly and mass surveillance.
    Weren’t we told that? By doe-eyed theorists.
    Your ass. Where they put the price sticker.
    You remember when you could sign up to block unwanted calls on your cell phone? Received a dozen yesterday and when I block them, the calls keep coming from the same number or with one digit changed.
    I have the feeling the sign-up list didn’t block anything, but was sold to the highest bidder.
    Too many fuckers fucking, and not enough Lorraine Bobbits among us with scissors to nip it in the bud.

  919. It’s such a grand idea, everyone claims it as their own:
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/tom-cotton-trump-greenland-purchase-idea
    They see plenty of “green”, alright.
    Tom Cotton requires some radical snipping in the dick area.
    You watch, p WILL buy Greenland, with Treasury paper.
    And then default on the entire federal debt, like he has on everything fucking thing he touches.
    Voila, we get Greenland for free. Denmark gets bupkus.
    Let the fracking and the fucking begin.
    Also, the killing.

  920. It’s such a grand idea, everyone claims it as their own:
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/tom-cotton-trump-greenland-purchase-idea
    They see plenty of “green”, alright.
    Tom Cotton requires some radical snipping in the dick area.
    You watch, p WILL buy Greenland, with Treasury paper.
    And then default on the entire federal debt, like he has on everything fucking thing he touches.
    Voila, we get Greenland for free. Denmark gets bupkus.
    Let the fracking and the fucking begin.
    Also, the killing.

  921. If we’re going to use robot umpires, we might as well go all in. Use robot players, too. Robot fans, even.
    At which point, we don’t even need a stadium. Do the whole game in the cloud, with CGI players for the fans at home to watch. Think of the savings!

  922. If we’re going to use robot umpires, we might as well go all in. Use robot players, too. Robot fans, even.
    At which point, we don’t even need a stadium. Do the whole game in the cloud, with CGI players for the fans at home to watch. Think of the savings!

  923. You watch:
    http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2019/08/the-national-republican-congressional-committee-is-selling-t-shirts-of-a-map-of-the-usa-that-includes-greenland
    They just moved the Bureau of Land Management to Grand Junction, Colorado.
    To be nearer to the people who want to corrupt, and failing that, murder them.
    The entire U.S. Department of the Koch Brothers Interior will be re-located to Nuuk*, Greenland in time for p’s campaign for a third term, to be stolen in 2024.
    Unless something unthinkable this way comes.
    You watch, when impeachment proceedings begin, p will announce, look over there, that Bolsonaro of Brazil, his brother in murder, has agreed to sell America half of the Amazon Rain Forest, with logging allotments pre-assigned, without bidding, to relatives and co-conspirators of both p and Bolsonaro. Putin’s offshore trusts, somehow intermingled with Epstein’s, will get a hefty taste as well.
    Hillary Clinton is running the entire enterprise, I’ll betcha.
    From her server.
    I can smell it.
    *pronounced tr-ump in the new signage being prepared

  924. You watch:
    http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2019/08/the-national-republican-congressional-committee-is-selling-t-shirts-of-a-map-of-the-usa-that-includes-greenland
    They just moved the Bureau of Land Management to Grand Junction, Colorado.
    To be nearer to the people who want to corrupt, and failing that, murder them.
    The entire U.S. Department of the Koch Brothers Interior will be re-located to Nuuk*, Greenland in time for p’s campaign for a third term, to be stolen in 2024.
    Unless something unthinkable this way comes.
    You watch, when impeachment proceedings begin, p will announce, look over there, that Bolsonaro of Brazil, his brother in murder, has agreed to sell America half of the Amazon Rain Forest, with logging allotments pre-assigned, without bidding, to relatives and co-conspirators of both p and Bolsonaro. Putin’s offshore trusts, somehow intermingled with Epstein’s, will get a hefty taste as well.
    Hillary Clinton is running the entire enterprise, I’ll betcha.
    From her server.
    I can smell it.
    *pronounced tr-ump in the new signage being prepared

  929. Brexiteers beg for Blitz:
    https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexspence/germany-britain-food-no-deal-brexit?utm_source=dynamic&utm_campaign=bfsharetwitter
    Germany promises NOT to blitz Britain with food.
    The question for England is, why is it that only an ostensibly pro-Remain individual, Jo Cox, gets shot and stabbed (because to ONLY shoot humans, according to the NRA, is to make guns look bad; one must be inclusive of knives) multiple times in her murder.
    Never mind, it’s the same reason why only the Other, whomever conservative insane people consider the Other to be, is butchered en masse in America …. because there are only good people on one side.

  930. Brexiteers beg for Blitz:
    https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexspence/germany-britain-food-no-deal-brexit?utm_source=dynamic&utm_campaign=bfsharetwitter
    Germany promises NOT to blitz Britain with food.
    The question for England is, why is it that only an ostensibly pro-Remain individual, Jo Cox, gets shot and stabbed (because to ONLY shoot humans, according to the NRA, is to make guns look bad; one must be inclusive of knives) multiple times in her murder.
    Never mind, it’s the same reason why only the Other, whomever conservative insane people consider the Other to be, is butchered en masse in America …. because there are only good people on one side.

  931. “Greedy fnckers are going to destroy the world. They’ll be dead before they have to live with the consequences, so they don’t give a crap.”
    Move the consequences closer in time and proximity to them to directly precede their demises.
    Make them crap in their drawers before they deservedly become corpses.
    We’ll shrug and call it coincidence.

  932. “Greedy fnckers are going to destroy the world. They’ll be dead before they have to live with the consequences, so they don’t give a crap.”
    Move the consequences closer in time and proximity to them to directly precede their demises.
    Make them crap in their drawers before they deservedly become corpses.
    We’ll shrug and call it coincidence.

  933. They’ll be dead before they have to live with the consequences, so they don’t give a crap.
    It would tend to explain why those who are younger are more concerned, while those who are older are more willing to deny that there is a problem.

  934. They’ll be dead before they have to live with the consequences, so they don’t give a crap.
    It would tend to explain why those who are younger are more concerned, while those who are older are more willing to deny that there is a problem.

  935. Purchasing Greenland is the essence of the dreaded Globalism.
    What p and his vermin mean by Globalism is America … well .. Arby’s … owns the globe.
    Further what p and his right wing fascists mean by the Jew/Soros inspired plot of globalism is making sure right wing orthodox crypto-Christianity, with him as anti-Christ AND Savior, rules and owns the globe instead.
    I’m rethinking my opposition to human sacrifice.

  936. Purchasing Greenland is the essence of the dreaded Globalism.
    What p and his vermin mean by Globalism is America … well .. Arby’s … owns the globe.
    Further what p and his right wing fascists mean by the Jew/Soros inspired plot of globalism is making sure right wing orthodox crypto-Christianity, with him as anti-Christ AND Savior, rules and owns the globe instead.
    I’m rethinking my opposition to human sacrifice.

  937. “If we’re going to use robot umpires, we might as well go all in. Use robot players, too. Robot fans, even.”
    Man, that would cut overhead and infrastructure costs.
    If a robot fan caught a home run ball (there would be no foul balls any longer, technology solving that wastage problem), and I expect they would never drop the ball, would a robot player sign it after the game with a robot signature signer and then the robot fan could sell it on a fully-automated EBAY via algorithmic currency to some unsuspecting nine-year old human fan for mucho dineiro, as part of the marketing outreach to the human element.
    I notice the owners never get robotized.

  938. “If we’re going to use robot umpires, we might as well go all in. Use robot players, too. Robot fans, even.”
    Man, that would cut overhead and infrastructure costs.
    If a robot fan caught a home run ball (there would be no foul balls any longer, technology solving that wastage problem), and I expect they would never drop the ball, would a robot player sign it after the game with a robot signature signer and then the robot fan could sell it on a fully-automated EBAY via algorithmic currency to some unsuspecting nine-year old human fan for mucho dineiro, as part of the marketing outreach to the human element.
    I notice the owners never get robotized.

  939. Would a robotic center fielder have multiple, infinitely extendable arms, with symbolic baseball gloves glued to the end of them for realism sake, so that it could snag every ball within a radius of say a 1000 feet in every direction, thereby dispensing for the need and expense of THREE robotic outfielders?
    The Willie Mays model. Better, the Byron Buxton model robot.
    I guess that would do away with the shift.

  940. Would a robotic center fielder have multiple, infinitely extendable arms, with symbolic baseball gloves glued to the end of them for realism sake, so that it could snag every ball within a radius of say a 1000 feet in every direction, thereby dispensing for the need and expense of THREE robotic outfielders?
    The Willie Mays model. Better, the Byron Buxton model robot.
    I guess that would do away with the shift.

  941. Would the umpires be stored, perhaps at a recharging hub, under the bleachers between games, or would they have to make their way to the game each day via self-driving car?

  942. Would the umpires be stored, perhaps at a recharging hub, under the bleachers between games, or would they have to make their way to the game each day via self-driving car?

  943. “It would tend to explain why those who are younger are more concerned, while those who are older are more willing to deny that there is a problem.”
    wj, the new rule is, until further notice or an unstolen election, reasonableness has no place in reasoning.

  944. “It would tend to explain why those who are younger are more concerned, while those who are older are more willing to deny that there is a problem.”
    wj, the new rule is, until further notice or an unstolen election, reasonableness has no place in reasoning.

  947. Interestingly, just like a republican or conservative world leader, Sophia gains citizenship even after going on record as wanted to kill humanity:
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-robot-who-wants-to-destroy-humanity-isnt-so-good-at-sentences-yet?ref=scroll
    Maybe she’s being reprogrammed in Saudi Arabia to kill only Jews and Yemenis with vague ties to Iran.
    Meanwhile, at the southern border, our murderous conservative movement denies citizenship to fully -realized humans who believe in nothing but life and living.
    Sophia says elsewhere she wants to have a family.
    Pre-manufactured robots are human too.
    No doubt she’ll want Planned Parenthood abolished.

  948. Interestingly, just like a republican or conservative world leader, Sophia gains citizenship even after going on record as wanted to kill humanity:
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-robot-who-wants-to-destroy-humanity-isnt-so-good-at-sentences-yet?ref=scroll
    Maybe she’s being reprogrammed in Saudi Arabia to kill only Jews and Yemenis with vague ties to Iran.
    Meanwhile, at the southern border, our murderous conservative movement denies citizenship to fully -realized humans who believe in nothing but life and living.
    Sophia says elsewhere she wants to have a family.
    Pre-manufactured robots are human too.
    No doubt she’ll want Planned Parenthood abolished.

  949. I notice the owners never get robotized.
    Well you don’t have to have a plan for that. Once they no longer get to hobnob with sports celebs, there’s no reason for anybody to lay out tons of cash to buy a team. So they just fade away, leaving us to run little auctions (probably for on-line gamers) to be nominal owners. The proceeds going, obviously, to pay for the computer infrastructure to run the whole thing.
    Would a robotic center fielder have multiple, infinitely extendable arms, with symbolic baseball gloves glued to the end of them for realism sake
    Oh, no. The robotic players would need to have exactly the same range and other capabilities as real human beings. Probably have to have some mechanism for getting exceptional players spread around. But that’s for after we agree on the basic concept.

  950. I notice the owners never get robotized.
    Well you don’t have to have a plan for that. Once they no longer get to hobnob with sports celebs, there’s no reason for anybody to lay out tons of cash to buy a team. So they just fade away, leaving us to run little auctions (probably for on-line gamers) to be nominal owners. The proceeds going, obviously, to pay for the computer infrastructure to run the whole thing.
    Would a robotic center fielder have multiple, infinitely extendable arms, with symbolic baseball gloves glued to the end of them for realism sake
    Oh, no. The robotic players would need to have exactly the same range and other capabilities as real human beings. Probably have to have some mechanism for getting exceptional players spread around. But that’s for after we agree on the basic concept.

  951. “The robotic players would need to have exactly the same range and other capabilities as real human beings.”
    Have you yourself been robotized? Or, are you somehow a mind-loaded descendant of Mr. Spock?
    “But, Jim, the robotic players would need to have exactly the same range and other capabilities as real human beings.”
    Captain Kirk: But without the need for a curfew, one would assume?
    Spock: “As one of your Earthlings once said, Jim, “Touche”. And now, Captain, shall we adjourn this conversation for another time.”
    Maybe, I hope, you are merely Abbott to my Costello:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcRRaXV-fg

  952. “The robotic players would need to have exactly the same range and other capabilities as real human beings.”
    Have you yourself been robotized? Or, are you somehow a mind-loaded descendant of Mr. Spock?
    “But, Jim, the robotic players would need to have exactly the same range and other capabilities as real human beings.”
    Captain Kirk: But without the need for a curfew, one would assume?
    Spock: “As one of your Earthlings once said, Jim, “Touche”. And now, Captain, shall we adjourn this conversation for another time.”
    Maybe, I hope, you are merely Abbott to my Costello:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcRRaXV-fg

  953. But without the need for a curfew, one would assume?
    Also without the need to bail out one of your starters before the next day’s start time. 😉

  954. But without the need for a curfew, one would assume?
    Also without the need to bail out one of your starters before the next day’s start time. 😉

  955. Journalism is dead in this country.
    So stop practicing a game that is not permitted to be played. Why practice saddling up a brontosaurus to ride it in the Easter Parade?
    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/8/22/1880615/-Trump-makes-reporters-the-monkeys-in-his-f-king-circus-and-they-keep-begging-for-his-bananas
    Practice goddamned fucking war instead.
    This filth wants Civil War:
    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/8/22/1880628/-Moscow-Mitch-McConnell-declares-war-on-the-next-Democratic-president
    Give it to him red in tooth and claw.
    Even out of office, these vermin will fuck America.
    Wipe the conservative movement off the face of the Earth.

  956. Journalism is dead in this country.
    So stop practicing a game that is not permitted to be played. Why practice saddling up a brontosaurus to ride it in the Easter Parade?
    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/8/22/1880615/-Trump-makes-reporters-the-monkeys-in-his-f-king-circus-and-they-keep-begging-for-his-bananas
    Practice goddamned fucking war instead.
    This filth wants Civil War:
    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/8/22/1880628/-Moscow-Mitch-McConnell-declares-war-on-the-next-Democratic-president
    Give it to him red in tooth and claw.
    Even out of office, these vermin will fuck America.
    Wipe the conservative movement off the face of the Earth.

  959. As with all bullshit in the conservative movement, one shitty idea by one of them is followed up by a colossally and excrementally bad idea by another of them:
    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/forget-annexing-greenland-start-breaking-up-america/
    However, Colorado as sub-unit of the Denmark crown sounds intriguing.
    And one of the commenters suggestion to find a loophole in the surrender papers at Appomattox to separate the Confederacy from us once and for all is tempting.

  960. As with all bullshit in the conservative movement, one shitty idea by one of them is followed up by a colossally and excrementally bad idea by another of them:
    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/forget-annexing-greenland-start-breaking-up-america/
    However, Colorado as sub-unit of the Denmark crown sounds intriguing.
    And one of the commenters suggestion to find a loophole in the surrender papers at Appomattox to separate the Confederacy from us once and for all is tempting.

  971. I couldn’t tell if the breaking up America article was serious— parts seemed satirical. But reality seems satirical these days, so it was hard to tell.
    It wouldn’t make sense. It’s not so much regional as urban vs rural. And as some commenters pointed out, these fragmentation events usually lead to wars.

  972. I couldn’t tell if the breaking up America article was serious— parts seemed satirical. But reality seems satirical these days, so it was hard to tell.
    It wouldn’t make sense. It’s not so much regional as urban vs rural. And as some commenters pointed out, these fragmentation events usually lead to wars.

  973. I have a suspicion that the idea of breaking up the country, assuming it was serious, has a different basis. The article says

    However, the U.S. already is too big. With nearly 330 million people, there is no “national family.” California is a fabulous place, but a majority of its citizens want to base policy on dirigiste economics and identity politics.

    Anyone who has lived in California will know that this is untrue. There are, no doubt, some here who fit that description. But they are very much a minority, even of Democrats, let alone the whole population. If we weren’t proper money-grubbing capitalists at heart, how would we have ended up with all those billionaires in Silicon Valley? (Not to mention the hordes of us who, while nowhere near billionaires, are at least multimillionaires. I.e. richer than I suspect the author is — unless he made more from those undercover payments while at Cato than I think he did.) Just for example.
    I conclude that the motivation is to avoid having to actually learn about those parts of the country which are not identical (at least in their political or cultural views) to where the writer lives. So inconvenient to have reality intrude like that.

  974. I have a suspicion that the idea of breaking up the country, assuming it was serious, has a different basis. The article says

    However, the U.S. already is too big. With nearly 330 million people, there is no “national family.” California is a fabulous place, but a majority of its citizens want to base policy on dirigiste economics and identity politics.

    Anyone who has lived in California will know that this is untrue. There are, no doubt, some here who fit that description. But they are very much a minority, even of Democrats, let alone the whole population. If we weren’t proper money-grubbing capitalists at heart, how would we have ended up with all those billionaires in Silicon Valley? (Not to mention the hordes of us who, while nowhere near billionaires, are at least multimillionaires. I.e. richer than I suspect the author is — unless he made more from those undercover payments while at Cato than I think he did.) Just for example.
    I conclude that the motivation is to avoid having to actually learn about those parts of the country which are not identical (at least in their political or cultural views) to where the writer lives. So inconvenient to have reality intrude like that.

  975. Why is the non-coastal west so solidly ahead of the rest of the country in suicide?
    Maybe they spend too much time gazing at the moon, and lose their senses.

  976. Why is the non-coastal west so solidly ahead of the rest of the country in suicide?
    Maybe they spend too much time gazing at the moon, and lose their senses.

  979. I conclude that the motivation is to avoid having to actually learn about those parts of the country which are not identical (at least in their political or cultural views) to where the writer lives.
    At least peripherally related… Every single East Coast pundit failed to predict the outcome of Arizona v. Arizona at the Supreme Court. That was the case where Arizona voters, by initiative, took district-drawing power away from the regular legislature, and were sued by that Republican-controlled legislature. All of the pundits neglected to remember that Anthony Kennedy was a California boy, and was the only member of the court who knew from experience what a can of worms the Court would open in the western states by putting some things off-limits to the initiative process.
    The national Democratic Party is struggling to deal with the fact that their future appears to be in the West, not in the extended Rust Belt or the NE urban corridor.

  980. I conclude that the motivation is to avoid having to actually learn about those parts of the country which are not identical (at least in their political or cultural views) to where the writer lives.
    At least peripherally related… Every single East Coast pundit failed to predict the outcome of Arizona v. Arizona at the Supreme Court. That was the case where Arizona voters, by initiative, took district-drawing power away from the regular legislature, and were sued by that Republican-controlled legislature. All of the pundits neglected to remember that Anthony Kennedy was a California boy, and was the only member of the court who knew from experience what a can of worms the Court would open in the western states by putting some things off-limits to the initiative process.
    The national Democratic Party is struggling to deal with the fact that their future appears to be in the West, not in the extended Rust Belt or the NE urban corridor.

  985. “a geographical breakup makes little sense”
    You say that as if it provides any guide to what the US/UK will decide to do.

  986. “a geographical breakup makes little sense”
    You say that as if it provides any guide to what the US/UK will decide to do.

  987. The national Democratic Party is struggling to deal with the fact that their future appears to be in the West
    Can you expand on this? I can think of a number of things that you could mean by this, I’m curious to know what you actually *do* mean.

  988. The national Democratic Party is struggling to deal with the fact that their future appears to be in the West
    Can you expand on this? I can think of a number of things that you could mean by this, I’m curious to know what you actually *do* mean.

  991. And if you look at the maps on the link, and then consider that Arizona may turn at least pale blue as well, the western surge becomes more apparent. The northeast won’t disappear as a factor, of course. But it’s ceasing to be the biggest piece of the puzzle.

  992. And if you look at the maps on the link, and then consider that Arizona may turn at least pale blue as well, the western surge becomes more apparent. The northeast won’t disappear as a factor, of course. But it’s ceasing to be the biggest piece of the puzzle.

  995. If what you guys are getting at is that folks in the west are gonna start voting (D), then I have nothing but applause.
    🙂

  996. If what you guys are getting at is that folks in the west are gonna start voting (D), then I have nothing but applause.
    🙂

  997. If what you guys are getting at is that folks in the west are gonna start voting (D), then I have nothing but applause.
    Not quite. What I, at least, am getting at is that more folks in the west are gonna start voting (D). Enough to, increasingly, swing Electoral College votes and Senate seats.

  998. If what you guys are getting at is that folks in the west are gonna start voting (D), then I have nothing but applause.
    Not quite. What I, at least, am getting at is that more folks in the west are gonna start voting (D). Enough to, increasingly, swing Electoral College votes and Senate seats.

  1001. What I, at least, am getting at is that more folks in the west are gonna start voting (D).
    Works for me.

  1002. What I, at least, am getting at is that more folks in the west are gonna start voting (D).
    Works for me.

  1005. If you had in January of 2018 invested in an index fund that closely tracked the DJIA, as of today, you would have made pretty much NOTHING.
    If you attribute such things to Rump, as many of his fans do, you can say he got you one really good year, a year and a half of volatility with no net gain, and who the hell knows what from here on out.
    I guess it will have to go back to being Obama’s fault if things go south.

  1006. If you had in January of 2018 invested in an index fund that closely tracked the DJIA, as of today, you would have made pretty much NOTHING.
    If you attribute such things to Rump, as many of his fans do, you can say he got you one really good year, a year and a half of volatility with no net gain, and who the hell knows what from here on out.
    I guess it will have to go back to being Obama’s fault if things go south.

  1007. If you had in January of 2018 invested in an index fund that closely tracked the DJIA, as of today, you would have made pretty much NOTHING.
    If you attribute such things to Rump, as many of his fans do…
    Actually, I don’t think his “fans” do. The folks who regard him as a useful idiot do, sure. But his fans generally don’t have much involvement in the stock market. They are far more invested in how their immediate economy, their pay and their expenses, is doing.

  1008. If you had in January of 2018 invested in an index fund that closely tracked the DJIA, as of today, you would have made pretty much NOTHING.
    If you attribute such things to Rump, as many of his fans do…
    Actually, I don’t think his “fans” do. The folks who regard him as a useful idiot do, sure. But his fans generally don’t have much involvement in the stock market. They are far more invested in how their immediate economy, their pay and their expenses, is doing.

  1009. plus, they’re dumb as hell.
    Breitbart top headline “Trump Orders U.S. Companies to Look for Alternatives”
    haven’t found a comment yet saying anything like “hey wait, the govt can’t tell companies what to do! that’s socialism!”

  1010. plus, they’re dumb as hell.
    Breitbart top headline “Trump Orders U.S. Companies to Look for Alternatives”
    haven’t found a comment yet saying anything like “hey wait, the govt can’t tell companies what to do! that’s socialism!”

  1011. If what you guys are getting at is that folks in the west are gonna start voting (D), then I have nothing but applause.
    Not just gonna start. In 2016, the West produced 98 Clinton EC votes, the NE urban corridor 104. (Projections for reapportionment after 2020 currently show a net transfer of four EC votes from the NE urban corridor to the West.) Seven of the Democrats’ 14 state government trifectas are western states. Absent the two Mountain West wins for US Senate seats in 2018 we wouldn’t have a chance of winning control of the Senate in 2020. (I personally believe that unless we win two more western seats, we can’t win Senate control — my contributions will be made accordingly.) Also in 2018, picked up 12 more US House seats. One of those was from deep-red Utah. Arizona’s congressional delegation is now Democratic majority, by one.
    By a lot of numbers, the West has become a near-peer to the NE urban corridor for the party, at the same time that so much of the Midwest has slipped away.

  1012. If what you guys are getting at is that folks in the west are gonna start voting (D), then I have nothing but applause.
    Not just gonna start. In 2016, the West produced 98 Clinton EC votes, the NE urban corridor 104. (Projections for reapportionment after 2020 currently show a net transfer of four EC votes from the NE urban corridor to the West.) Seven of the Democrats’ 14 state government trifectas are western states. Absent the two Mountain West wins for US Senate seats in 2018 we wouldn’t have a chance of winning control of the Senate in 2020. (I personally believe that unless we win two more western seats, we can’t win Senate control — my contributions will be made accordingly.) Also in 2018, picked up 12 more US House seats. One of those was from deep-red Utah. Arizona’s congressional delegation is now Democratic majority, by one.
    By a lot of numbers, the West has become a near-peer to the NE urban corridor for the party, at the same time that so much of the Midwest has slipped away.

  1013. They are far more invested in how their immediate economy, their pay and their expenses, is doing.
    Probably half the people I know who support Trump claim to do so because the economy is great and, specifically, “the markets are roaring!”. And, they make enough money that they are probably speaking from their personal interest.
    All kinds of people support Trump, for a variety of reasons.
    Markets go up and down, and that ebb and flow is quite often due to, as Marty puts it, “exogenous” forces. I don’t expect the POTUS, or any one person, or probably any single bunch of people, to make things go one way or the other in any consistent or sustained way.
    What makes me shake my head in sheer dumbfoundedness is the spectacle of the POTUS acting like a pissy junior high school kid on his phone, going off at random every time something bugs him, without any capacity for self-discipline or apparent concern for the possible downsides of his actions.
    Junior high school kid is probably generous, he demonstrates the personal character and maturity of, literally, a three year old.
    Nobody in a position to counter Trump’s childishness and petty vindictiveness appears to have the will to do it. No-one in his family, none of his close advisors, not the Congress. The performance of the courts is at best spotty.
    He’s just running around like a spoiled child, breaking stuff.
    It is, really, an exercise in stunning institutional incompetence. Among other things, for sure, but that as well.
    We are not equipped to deal with somebody who simply does not give a shit. I guess the sainted founders assumed nobody with such obvious and profound deficiencies would ever be elected to a position of such significant responsibility.
    It’s a serious gap.

  1014. They are far more invested in how their immediate economy, their pay and their expenses, is doing.
    Probably half the people I know who support Trump claim to do so because the economy is great and, specifically, “the markets are roaring!”. And, they make enough money that they are probably speaking from their personal interest.
    All kinds of people support Trump, for a variety of reasons.
    Markets go up and down, and that ebb and flow is quite often due to, as Marty puts it, “exogenous” forces. I don’t expect the POTUS, or any one person, or probably any single bunch of people, to make things go one way or the other in any consistent or sustained way.
    What makes me shake my head in sheer dumbfoundedness is the spectacle of the POTUS acting like a pissy junior high school kid on his phone, going off at random every time something bugs him, without any capacity for self-discipline or apparent concern for the possible downsides of his actions.
    Junior high school kid is probably generous, he demonstrates the personal character and maturity of, literally, a three year old.
    Nobody in a position to counter Trump’s childishness and petty vindictiveness appears to have the will to do it. No-one in his family, none of his close advisors, not the Congress. The performance of the courts is at best spotty.
    He’s just running around like a spoiled child, breaking stuff.
    It is, really, an exercise in stunning institutional incompetence. Among other things, for sure, but that as well.
    We are not equipped to deal with somebody who simply does not give a shit. I guess the sainted founders assumed nobody with such obvious and profound deficiencies would ever be elected to a position of such significant responsibility.
    It’s a serious gap.

  1015. Meanwhile, my House Rep (Moulton) has dropped out of the race for POTUS. Which is good.
    He didn’t make the cut for the debates, and apparently he’s been going down to a local joint where they were broadcasting the debates on the big TV, grabbing a mike, and arguing with the candidates who were in the debates there. I.e., debating them by arguing with the TV. In public.
    So, not a good look.
    Lotta serious gaps going on.

  1016. Meanwhile, my House Rep (Moulton) has dropped out of the race for POTUS. Which is good.
    He didn’t make the cut for the debates, and apparently he’s been going down to a local joint where they were broadcasting the debates on the big TV, grabbing a mike, and arguing with the candidates who were in the debates there. I.e., debating them by arguing with the TV. In public.
    So, not a good look.
    Lotta serious gaps going on.

  1017. But his fans generally don’t have much involvement in the stock market.
    Aside from what russell already covered, regardless of their involvement, it’s a very popular talking point. Even people without a pot to piss in and who support the moron will crow about the stock market (at least when it’s doing well, even if it’s just for a day).

  1018. But his fans generally don’t have much involvement in the stock market.
    Aside from what russell already covered, regardless of their involvement, it’s a very popular talking point. Even people without a pot to piss in and who support the moron will crow about the stock market (at least when it’s doing well, even if it’s just for a day).

  1019. What makes me shake my head in sheer dumbfoundedness is the spectacle of the POTUS acting like a pissy junior high school kid on his phone, going off at random every time something bugs him, without any capacity for self-discipline or apparent concern for the possible downsides of his actions.
    I think you’re being a little hard on pissy junior high schooler’s. And the B part is how easily and publicly he is played by the worst dictators on the planet. Sapient, no need to demand I vote Democratic. I already hear that all the time.

  1020. What makes me shake my head in sheer dumbfoundedness is the spectacle of the POTUS acting like a pissy junior high school kid on his phone, going off at random every time something bugs him, without any capacity for self-discipline or apparent concern for the possible downsides of his actions.
    I think you’re being a little hard on pissy junior high schooler’s. And the B part is how easily and publicly he is played by the worst dictators on the planet. Sapient, no need to demand I vote Democratic. I already hear that all the time.

  1021. I personally believe that unless we win two more western seats, we can’t win Senate control — my contributions will be made accordingly.
    Perhaps Bullock can be persuaded to go after Montana’s Senate seat. (He’s the only Democrat with a viable shot at getting it.) That would, with Colorado and Arizona, give a reasonable shot at gaining 3. Which would leave some margin for error elsewhere.

  1022. I personally believe that unless we win two more western seats, we can’t win Senate control — my contributions will be made accordingly.
    Perhaps Bullock can be persuaded to go after Montana’s Senate seat. (He’s the only Democrat with a viable shot at getting it.) That would, with Colorado and Arizona, give a reasonable shot at gaining 3. Which would leave some margin for error elsewhere.

  1023. I guess the sainted founders assumed nobody with such obvious and profound deficiencies would ever be elected to a position of such significant responsibility.
    The Constitution and three branches of government were intended to minimize the damage any one person or group of people could do. Which, at times, has met with a lot less than complete success long before Trump.

  1024. I guess the sainted founders assumed nobody with such obvious and profound deficiencies would ever be elected to a position of such significant responsibility.
    The Constitution and three branches of government were intended to minimize the damage any one person or group of people could do. Which, at times, has met with a lot less than complete success long before Trump.

  1025. In 2016, the West produced 98 Clinton EC votes
    a lot depends on what ‘west’ means.
    there are 230 EC votes west of the Mississippi, 308 to the east. but if we just count coastal and mountain west (leave off the plains states and obviously-not-west LA and MN), there are 128.
    that’s not a lot of room for growth – 30.
    the NE urban corridor 104
    not sure why you’re restricting to just that area. “west” vs “north east” leave off a huge chunk of the country.
    PA and OH are swing states, so are MI, NC and FL. and those alone are 98 EC votes.

  1026. In 2016, the West produced 98 Clinton EC votes
    a lot depends on what ‘west’ means.
    there are 230 EC votes west of the Mississippi, 308 to the east. but if we just count coastal and mountain west (leave off the plains states and obviously-not-west LA and MN), there are 128.
    that’s not a lot of room for growth – 30.
    the NE urban corridor 104
    not sure why you’re restricting to just that area. “west” vs “north east” leave off a huge chunk of the country.
    PA and OH are swing states, so are MI, NC and FL. and those alone are 98 EC votes.

  1027. I’m rethinking my opposition to human sacrifice.
    This made me laugh out loud.
    haven’t found a comment yet saying anything like “hey wait, the govt can’t tell companies what to do! that’s socialism!”
    This too.

  1028. I’m rethinking my opposition to human sacrifice.
    This made me laugh out loud.
    haven’t found a comment yet saying anything like “hey wait, the govt can’t tell companies what to do! that’s socialism!”
    This too.

  1029. Sapient, no need to demand I vote Democratic. I already hear that all the time.
    Since this would be the only way to actually help dispose of the man you quite rightly despise, along with his craven enablers, it’s still rather hard to see why you refuse to, at least during the current electoral cycle.

  1030. Sapient, no need to demand I vote Democratic. I already hear that all the time.
    Since this would be the only way to actually help dispose of the man you quite rightly despise, along with his craven enablers, it’s still rather hard to see why you refuse to, at least during the current electoral cycle.

  1031. it’s still rather hard to see why you refuse to, at least during the current electoral cycle.
    I seem to recall that you voted Liberal Democrat (is that the correct name?) because you couldn’t pull the trigger for Labor. If you didn’t have the 3rd choice, would you have voted for Boris or Comrade Jeremy?
    I could vote Libertarian or just not pull the trigger for either side, and that would be a form of voting. I’ve given up trying to please the pro and anti-Trumpers.

  1032. it’s still rather hard to see why you refuse to, at least during the current electoral cycle.
    I seem to recall that you voted Liberal Democrat (is that the correct name?) because you couldn’t pull the trigger for Labor. If you didn’t have the 3rd choice, would you have voted for Boris or Comrade Jeremy?
    I could vote Libertarian or just not pull the trigger for either side, and that would be a form of voting. I’ve given up trying to please the pro and anti-Trumpers.

  1033. I could vote Libertarian or just not pull the trigger for either side, and that would be a form of voting.
    Sure, but a less effective one than actually voting for a viable Trump opponent.
    I’ve given up trying to please the pro and anti-Trumpers.
    That wouldn’t be the only reason to vote for a viable Trump opponent. Without mind-reading, it looks as though there’s an identity thing going on here, whereby you would feel you weren’t be true to who you were if you voted for a Democrat.
    I imagine what GftNC is curious about is why you don’t want Trump out of office badly enough that you would vote for a Democrat, even a hypothetical Democrat that wasn’t too much of a “socialist.” I don’t think it’s a question of why you don’t want to please someone else.

  1034. I could vote Libertarian or just not pull the trigger for either side, and that would be a form of voting.
    Sure, but a less effective one than actually voting for a viable Trump opponent.
    I’ve given up trying to please the pro and anti-Trumpers.
    That wouldn’t be the only reason to vote for a viable Trump opponent. Without mind-reading, it looks as though there’s an identity thing going on here, whereby you would feel you weren’t be true to who you were if you voted for a Democrat.
    I imagine what GftNC is curious about is why you don’t want Trump out of office badly enough that you would vote for a Democrat, even a hypothetical Democrat that wasn’t too much of a “socialist.” I don’t think it’s a question of why you don’t want to please someone else.

  1035. …a lot depends on what ‘west’ means.
    When I use it, I mean the Census Bureau’s 13-state western region. Fundamentally, the Great Plains are a very effective dividing line. When I say NE urban corridor, I mean the 12 states from Maine to Virginia.

  1036. …a lot depends on what ‘west’ means.
    When I use it, I mean the Census Bureau’s 13-state western region. Fundamentally, the Great Plains are a very effective dividing line. When I say NE urban corridor, I mean the 12 states from Maine to Virginia.

  1037. in reality, no President is going to be able to foist the evil socialism on the pure virginal US. Congress would always kill that.
    but there’s a roughly zero percent chance that the Dems are going to nominate anyone who is as fundamentally unfit for the job as Trump. even the least-qualified among them is still level-headed and not likely to start bragging about how bangable their daughters are.
    so, say it’s Trump vs Biden – the choice is an old-school center-left white guy vs Trump’s ever-increasing insanity. that would be too much?

  1038. in reality, no President is going to be able to foist the evil socialism on the pure virginal US. Congress would always kill that.
    but there’s a roughly zero percent chance that the Dems are going to nominate anyone who is as fundamentally unfit for the job as Trump. even the least-qualified among them is still level-headed and not likely to start bragging about how bangable their daughters are.
    so, say it’s Trump vs Biden – the choice is an old-school center-left white guy vs Trump’s ever-increasing insanity. that would be too much?

  1039. When I say NE urban corridor, I mean the 12 states from Maine to Virginia.
    ok
    but what about all the rest of the country?
    i just don’t see how the west, which is already giving ~3/4 of its votes to the Dems, is going to start being more important than the south or the upper-midwest, which have a lot more votes and seats available. not in the short term, anyway – maybe in 100 years or something, when the east coast is underwater…

  1040. When I say NE urban corridor, I mean the 12 states from Maine to Virginia.
    ok
    but what about all the rest of the country?
    i just don’t see how the west, which is already giving ~3/4 of its votes to the Dems, is going to start being more important than the south or the upper-midwest, which have a lot more votes and seats available. not in the short term, anyway – maybe in 100 years or something, when the east coast is underwater…

  1041. That wouldn’t be the only reason to vote for a viable Trump opponent. Without mind-reading, it looks as though there’s an identity thing going on here, whereby you would feel you weren’t be true to who you were if you voted for a Democrat.
    I voted for Lloyd Bensten several times. I gave Bill White 2K–the most I’ve ever given a politician. I support our Mayor, Sylvester Turner. I will vote against Republican Tony Buzbee for mayor.
    I am generally not warm to the Dem’s moving to the left. To Cleek’s point downthread, if it’s Biden and Trump head-to-head, and if I vote for president, my vote will be Biden.

  1042. That wouldn’t be the only reason to vote for a viable Trump opponent. Without mind-reading, it looks as though there’s an identity thing going on here, whereby you would feel you weren’t be true to who you were if you voted for a Democrat.
    I voted for Lloyd Bensten several times. I gave Bill White 2K–the most I’ve ever given a politician. I support our Mayor, Sylvester Turner. I will vote against Republican Tony Buzbee for mayor.
    I am generally not warm to the Dem’s moving to the left. To Cleek’s point downthread, if it’s Biden and Trump head-to-head, and if I vote for president, my vote will be Biden.

  1043. “and not likely to start bragging about how bangable their daughters are.”
    That’s not banging, per se.
    It’s a form of banging, so no harm.
    The guy p will shoot dead in the middle of Fifth Avenue (now on the verge of being renamed Barack Obama Avenue along a renowned stretch) before all of this is over (oh, there is much more to come) probably voted for p, and would again no matter if p shot him dead in the middle of Fifth Avenue.
    It’s a form of something, but I can’t think what.
    We have the secret ballot.
    Too bad for this guy, we didn’t have the secret interference with a foul ball:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq8G81oOHhY

  1044. “and not likely to start bragging about how bangable their daughters are.”
    That’s not banging, per se.
    It’s a form of banging, so no harm.
    The guy p will shoot dead in the middle of Fifth Avenue (now on the verge of being renamed Barack Obama Avenue along a renowned stretch) before all of this is over (oh, there is much more to come) probably voted for p, and would again no matter if p shot him dead in the middle of Fifth Avenue.
    It’s a form of something, but I can’t think what.
    We have the secret ballot.
    Too bad for this guy, we didn’t have the secret interference with a foul ball:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq8G81oOHhY

  1045. To Cleek’s point downthread, if it’s Biden and Trump head-to-head, and if I vote for president, my vote will be Biden.
    This anti-Trumper is pleased to read this.

  1046. To Cleek’s point downthread, if it’s Biden and Trump head-to-head, and if I vote for president, my vote will be Biden.
    This anti-Trumper is pleased to read this.

  1047. “if it’s Biden and Trump head-to-head, and if I vote for president, my vote will be Biden.”
    Well, alright then!

  1048. “if it’s Biden and Trump head-to-head, and if I vote for president, my vote will be Biden.”
    Well, alright then!

  1053. If you had in January of 2018 invested in an index fund that closely tracked the DJIA, as of today, you would have made pretty much NOTHING.
    True, but if you start the day after the election, you’d be up 2500 or thereabouts. I’m not implying causation, but you can pick any number of starting points and get significantly different answers to the same questions.
    Whaddaya mean by that second “if”?
    I have to see how JB holds up during the campaign and how left he goes in the primaries and things like that. He’s terribly gaffe prone and often fact-challenged, but that’s even more the case for DT. I’m not committing. I’m open to a centrist.

  1054. If you had in January of 2018 invested in an index fund that closely tracked the DJIA, as of today, you would have made pretty much NOTHING.
    True, but if you start the day after the election, you’d be up 2500 or thereabouts. I’m not implying causation, but you can pick any number of starting points and get significantly different answers to the same questions.
    Whaddaya mean by that second “if”?
    I have to see how JB holds up during the campaign and how left he goes in the primaries and things like that. He’s terribly gaffe prone and often fact-challenged, but that’s even more the case for DT. I’m not committing. I’m open to a centrist.

  1055. This anti-Trumper is pleased to read this.
    Excellent. I’m not down with Warren or Bernie; however, totally unrelated, Warren taught Oil & Gas Law at the University of Houston Law Center while I was a student there. “Oil & Gas” is/was part of the Texas bar exam so I signed up for her course–twice, actually–but could never get past the third lecture because the material was so damn boring, which when you consider that law school itself is the most boring 3 year slog anyone could ever put themselves through, that’s saying something. She was a nice person, not all that outgoing, but pleasant and well-liked. It’s been interesting following her career.
    While I’m tripping down memory lane politically, for those of you who follow the Green Party, the Green Party candidate in 2004 was David Cobb. David was a U of H law grad and he worked for me as a young lawyer before going into politics. Nice guy. Rode a big motorcycle.

  1056. This anti-Trumper is pleased to read this.
    Excellent. I’m not down with Warren or Bernie; however, totally unrelated, Warren taught Oil & Gas Law at the University of Houston Law Center while I was a student there. “Oil & Gas” is/was part of the Texas bar exam so I signed up for her course–twice, actually–but could never get past the third lecture because the material was so damn boring, which when you consider that law school itself is the most boring 3 year slog anyone could ever put themselves through, that’s saying something. She was a nice person, not all that outgoing, but pleasant and well-liked. It’s been interesting following her career.
    While I’m tripping down memory lane politically, for those of you who follow the Green Party, the Green Party candidate in 2004 was David Cobb. David was a U of H law grad and he worked for me as a young lawyer before going into politics. Nice guy. Rode a big motorcycle.

  1057. Michael,
    I am curious as to how you think the shift to the West you expect of the Democrats’ power center will affect the party.

  1058. Michael,
    I am curious as to how you think the shift to the West you expect of the Democrats’ power center will affect the party.

  1059. Sorry, late back to this. hsh @04.22 had it right. McKinney, to answer your question, at the moment my voting intentions would be entirely to do with Brexit: I intend to vote Lib Dem because they are unequivocally for stopping it, which I assume would mean another referendum. If we had a candidate as disastrous as Trump, I would vote for whomever (even Corbyn) looked in with a chance to defeat him. Corbyn is pretty appalling, but even he could not do the kind of damage to us that Trump is doing to America.

  1060. Sorry, late back to this. hsh @04.22 had it right. McKinney, to answer your question, at the moment my voting intentions would be entirely to do with Brexit: I intend to vote Lib Dem because they are unequivocally for stopping it, which I assume would mean another referendum. If we had a candidate as disastrous as Trump, I would vote for whomever (even Corbyn) looked in with a chance to defeat him. Corbyn is pretty appalling, but even he could not do the kind of damage to us that Trump is doing to America.

  1065. I’m not implying causation, but you can pick any number of starting points and get significantly different answers to the same questions.
    Sure. I did mention a really good first year. But I don’t subscribe to short-term causation in the economy and policy, or even a strong correlation between stock indices and the economy in the shorter term. I’m purposely using the framing of Trump supporters who do, at least when it’s convenient for them.

  1066. I’m not implying causation, but you can pick any number of starting points and get significantly different answers to the same questions.
    Sure. I did mention a really good first year. But I don’t subscribe to short-term causation in the economy and policy, or even a strong correlation between stock indices and the economy in the shorter term. I’m purposely using the framing of Trump supporters who do, at least when it’s convenient for them.

  1067. …but what about all the rest of the country?
    Exactly.
    Twenty years ago you read things about the Republicans becoming a regional party, and the writers all meant the Old Confederacy plus a few of the border states. As it turns out, they have steadily become dominant in the Midwest as well. At the same time, the eastern and western wings of the Democratic Party have become stronger in those regions.
    I would advance the hypotheses that (a) the eastern and western Democratic messages have some important differences, and (b) neither of them resonate sufficiently in the Midwest or the South. I haven’t got any answers; if the east and west Dem messages don’t resonate in the middle of the country, I don’t know what third message will that the east and west wings can tolerate.
    Tangentially, I find it fascinating that over at LGM during the past year there is a growing acceptance in the commentariate that there is no such message, and that partition/secession discussions are not immediately booed down.

  1068. …but what about all the rest of the country?
    Exactly.
    Twenty years ago you read things about the Republicans becoming a regional party, and the writers all meant the Old Confederacy plus a few of the border states. As it turns out, they have steadily become dominant in the Midwest as well. At the same time, the eastern and western wings of the Democratic Party have become stronger in those regions.
    I would advance the hypotheses that (a) the eastern and western Democratic messages have some important differences, and (b) neither of them resonate sufficiently in the Midwest or the South. I haven’t got any answers; if the east and west Dem messages don’t resonate in the middle of the country, I don’t know what third message will that the east and west wings can tolerate.
    Tangentially, I find it fascinating that over at LGM during the past year there is a growing acceptance in the commentariate that there is no such message, and that partition/secession discussions are not immediately booed down.

  1069. I am curious as to how you think the shift to the West you expect of the Democrats’ power center will affect the party.
    To be blunt, at some point, schism. I don’t believe one wing where “black women are the backbone of the party” and another wing where African-Americans are not the most important minority group can reconcile forever. Where one wing’s environmental concerns start with federal land management policy and the other wing doesn’t. Where one wing’s primary urban concern is rebuilding smashed urban cores and failed infrastructure and the other wing’s concern is unmanageable urban growth.
    Yep, lunatic fringe. Occasionally the lunatics are right. Unlike Mr. Thullen, who does rants so much better than I can ever dream of, I think a peaceful partition can be done.

  1070. I am curious as to how you think the shift to the West you expect of the Democrats’ power center will affect the party.
    To be blunt, at some point, schism. I don’t believe one wing where “black women are the backbone of the party” and another wing where African-Americans are not the most important minority group can reconcile forever. Where one wing’s environmental concerns start with federal land management policy and the other wing doesn’t. Where one wing’s primary urban concern is rebuilding smashed urban cores and failed infrastructure and the other wing’s concern is unmanageable urban growth.
    Yep, lunatic fringe. Occasionally the lunatics are right. Unlike Mr. Thullen, who does rants so much better than I can ever dream of, I think a peaceful partition can be done.

  1071. Twenty years ago you read things about the Republicans becoming a regional party, and the writers all meant the Old Confederacy plus a few of the border states. As it turns out, they have steadily become dominant in the Midwest as well.
    I wonder. I think at the moment the GOP is a marriage of convenience with two major, at heart quite different, strains. One is, indeed, the devotees of the Lost Cause, primarily** in the South and border states. Heavy on nostalgia; light on a grip on how that lost time actually was to live in for people like them — because, of course, very few people were actually rich enough to live the life they fondly imagine.
    The other main strain, especially strong in the mountain West, is not reactionary/conservative so much as libertarian. Carefully compartmentalized to avoid facing the reality of just how dependent they actually are on the government.
    I think that the Midwest represents a third strain. An increasingly marginalized one in the party overall. Call it, for lack of a better term, the remnants of Main Street Republicanism. It does not, to me, appear to be anywhere near as dominant in its region as the others. And thus far more susceptible to course corrections, ticket splitting, etc.
    ** Because of how much people move around in this country, someone who is culturally and ideologically of one area may well turn up far away and in quite different surroundings. (And feeling much put upon as a result. No matter what the individual’s views.)

  1072. Twenty years ago you read things about the Republicans becoming a regional party, and the writers all meant the Old Confederacy plus a few of the border states. As it turns out, they have steadily become dominant in the Midwest as well.
    I wonder. I think at the moment the GOP is a marriage of convenience with two major, at heart quite different, strains. One is, indeed, the devotees of the Lost Cause, primarily** in the South and border states. Heavy on nostalgia; light on a grip on how that lost time actually was to live in for people like them — because, of course, very few people were actually rich enough to live the life they fondly imagine.
    The other main strain, especially strong in the mountain West, is not reactionary/conservative so much as libertarian. Carefully compartmentalized to avoid facing the reality of just how dependent they actually are on the government.
    I think that the Midwest represents a third strain. An increasingly marginalized one in the party overall. Call it, for lack of a better term, the remnants of Main Street Republicanism. It does not, to me, appear to be anywhere near as dominant in its region as the others. And thus far more susceptible to course corrections, ticket splitting, etc.
    ** Because of how much people move around in this country, someone who is culturally and ideologically of one area may well turn up far away and in quite different surroundings. (And feeling much put upon as a result. No matter what the individual’s views.)

  1073. Yep, lunatic fringe. Occasionally the lunatics are right. Unlike Mr. Thullen, who does rants so much better than I can ever dream of, I think a peaceful partition can be done.
    Pretty much nobody knows what you’re on about most of the time.
    I know you’ve worked with legislatures, so I try to pay attention, but this is insane.
    I don’t believe one wing where “black women are the backbone of the party” and another wing where African-Americans are not the most important minority group can reconcile forever.
    What are you even talking about here? I’m sure that in the West, Hispanics are the dominant minority group. I don’t know what the numbers are in the East, but Hispanic population is pretty high here too. Still, the entire country has to deal with the legacy of slavery. I mean, you don’t think the people who moved West had black people in mind when they did so? Or maybe you’re saying that it’s okay that Oregon was founded as a white supremacy state?
    Again, I’ve tried to pay attention to what you’re getting at, but maybe what you’re getting at is something you don’t want to say explicitly? Because you’re not saying anything in a way that people can get on board with some kind of policy or even “vision” (ugly word, sorry).

  1074. Yep, lunatic fringe. Occasionally the lunatics are right. Unlike Mr. Thullen, who does rants so much better than I can ever dream of, I think a peaceful partition can be done.
    Pretty much nobody knows what you’re on about most of the time.
    I know you’ve worked with legislatures, so I try to pay attention, but this is insane.
    I don’t believe one wing where “black women are the backbone of the party” and another wing where African-Americans are not the most important minority group can reconcile forever.
    What are you even talking about here? I’m sure that in the West, Hispanics are the dominant minority group. I don’t know what the numbers are in the East, but Hispanic population is pretty high here too. Still, the entire country has to deal with the legacy of slavery. I mean, you don’t think the people who moved West had black people in mind when they did so? Or maybe you’re saying that it’s okay that Oregon was founded as a white supremacy state?
    Again, I’ve tried to pay attention to what you’re getting at, but maybe what you’re getting at is something you don’t want to say explicitly? Because you’re not saying anything in a way that people can get on board with some kind of policy or even “vision” (ugly word, sorry).

  1075. there’s a roughly zero percent chance that the Dems are going to nominate anyone who is as fundamentally unfit for the job as Trump
    President Ham Sandwich works for me. Even President Waffle Underpants.
    if it’s Biden and Trump head-to-head, and if I vote for president, my vote will be Biden
    Thank you sir!
    Wait. Whaddaya mean by that second “if”?
    Dude, take the win and ask no questions.
    I don’t know what third message will that the east and west wings can tolerate.
    The midwest probably has the longest and deepest pro-labor traditions of any region in the US.
    “Pay working people more” might have an appeal.

  1076. there’s a roughly zero percent chance that the Dems are going to nominate anyone who is as fundamentally unfit for the job as Trump
    President Ham Sandwich works for me. Even President Waffle Underpants.
    if it’s Biden and Trump head-to-head, and if I vote for president, my vote will be Biden
    Thank you sir!
    Wait. Whaddaya mean by that second “if”?
    Dude, take the win and ask no questions.
    I don’t know what third message will that the east and west wings can tolerate.
    The midwest probably has the longest and deepest pro-labor traditions of any region in the US.
    “Pay working people more” might have an appeal.

  1077. Again, I’ve tried to pay attention to what you’re getting at, but maybe what you’re getting at is something you don’t want to say explicitly? Because you’re not saying anything in a way that people can get on board with some kind of policy or even “vision” (ugly word, sorry).
    I know I’m not explaining the West vs non-West minority thing well, possibly because I’m totally screwed up in my thinking about it. As an old white guy, it’s certainly questionable as to whether I’m entitled to an opinion. It’s not high on my list of important differences, but it concerns me.
    I appreciate your calling me on it.

  1078. Again, I’ve tried to pay attention to what you’re getting at, but maybe what you’re getting at is something you don’t want to say explicitly? Because you’re not saying anything in a way that people can get on board with some kind of policy or even “vision” (ugly word, sorry).
    I know I’m not explaining the West vs non-West minority thing well, possibly because I’m totally screwed up in my thinking about it. As an old white guy, it’s certainly questionable as to whether I’m entitled to an opinion. It’s not high on my list of important differences, but it concerns me.
    I appreciate your calling me on it.

  1079. The midwest probably has the longest and deepest pro-labor traditions of any region in the US… “Pay working people more” might have an appeal.
    It’s a possibility. Higher minimum wages (all opposed by local Republicans) have done well in initiative states generally, regardless of red/blue (off the top of my head in recent years, Arizona, Colorado, Missouri, and Nebraska). Pretty consistently 60-40 in favor in all of those states. Also from memory, most commonly $12/hr, phased in, plus future inflation.

  1080. The midwest probably has the longest and deepest pro-labor traditions of any region in the US… “Pay working people more” might have an appeal.
    It’s a possibility. Higher minimum wages (all opposed by local Republicans) have done well in initiative states generally, regardless of red/blue (off the top of my head in recent years, Arizona, Colorado, Missouri, and Nebraska). Pretty consistently 60-40 in favor in all of those states. Also from memory, most commonly $12/hr, phased in, plus future inflation.

  1081. Pretty much nobody knows what you’re on about most of the time.
    I have to say, Michael Cain, I completely disagree with this. And as for your remark “As an old white guy, it’s certainly questionable as to whether I’m entitled to an opinion., I don’t think it’s questionable at all. It’s clear from my bouts in the past with McKinney about the issue of White Male Privilege that he has a problem with the concept, but the same seems to me not to apply to you at all. And, in my opinion (sic), nobody should feel that they don’t have a right to an opinion.

  1082. Pretty much nobody knows what you’re on about most of the time.
    I have to say, Michael Cain, I completely disagree with this. And as for your remark “As an old white guy, it’s certainly questionable as to whether I’m entitled to an opinion., I don’t think it’s questionable at all. It’s clear from my bouts in the past with McKinney about the issue of White Male Privilege that he has a problem with the concept, but the same seems to me not to apply to you at all. And, in my opinion (sic), nobody should feel that they don’t have a right to an opinion.

  1083. And while I’m here, a question for McKinney if he’s still around. I can understand your personal determination not to vote for Sanders under any circumstances, but not your determination ditto for Warren, given that you seem not to have character objections to her. From Europe (if I may be so bold) she seems not to be so very left wing (unlike Corbyn, say, to give a benchmark for the purposes of this discussion), so I would be very interested to hear your specific objections to her as POTUS, if she faced Trump in the election.

  1084. And while I’m here, a question for McKinney if he’s still around. I can understand your personal determination not to vote for Sanders under any circumstances, but not your determination ditto for Warren, given that you seem not to have character objections to her. From Europe (if I may be so bold) she seems not to be so very left wing (unlike Corbyn, say, to give a benchmark for the purposes of this discussion), so I would be very interested to hear your specific objections to her as POTUS, if she faced Trump in the election.

  1085. I appreciate your calling me on it.
    I appreciate your being so gracious about it. And, yes, you are entitled to an opinion, and because I think you’re a person of good will who wants to solve problems, your comment indicated that a problem exists that needs to be solved. I think it’s exactly the kind of thing, though, that we need to explore more deeply on a discussion forum where nobody gets hurt.
    Brexit, and whatever other movements are out there to split countries apart into smaller, more politically and demographically homogeneous entities, seem to inspire a lot of wrongheaded nationalism, and probably won’t really work that ways. It’s true that the West has different concerns in many ways: there is less water, more tribal lands, and possibly many other differences that, as someone from the mid-Atlantic, I ignore. The federalist system seems to work fairly well to address those issues. In fact, the electoral college gives outsized representation to many western states, so the states can deal with these issues on the state level, and I don’t see much resistance to acquiescing to state preferences at the federal level. Maybe I’m missing something.
    Anyway, my apologies for being grumpy, but it seems like schism (either of the country or the Democratic party) is a radical way to deal with something that hasn’t even occurred to most people to be a problem. I think your articulation of such a remedy demands a more extensive description of the problem.
    Thanks.

  1086. I appreciate your calling me on it.
    I appreciate your being so gracious about it. And, yes, you are entitled to an opinion, and because I think you’re a person of good will who wants to solve problems, your comment indicated that a problem exists that needs to be solved. I think it’s exactly the kind of thing, though, that we need to explore more deeply on a discussion forum where nobody gets hurt.
    Brexit, and whatever other movements are out there to split countries apart into smaller, more politically and demographically homogeneous entities, seem to inspire a lot of wrongheaded nationalism, and probably won’t really work that ways. It’s true that the West has different concerns in many ways: there is less water, more tribal lands, and possibly many other differences that, as someone from the mid-Atlantic, I ignore. The federalist system seems to work fairly well to address those issues. In fact, the electoral college gives outsized representation to many western states, so the states can deal with these issues on the state level, and I don’t see much resistance to acquiescing to state preferences at the federal level. Maybe I’m missing something.
    Anyway, my apologies for being grumpy, but it seems like schism (either of the country or the Democratic party) is a radical way to deal with something that hasn’t even occurred to most people to be a problem. I think your articulation of such a remedy demands a more extensive description of the problem.
    Thanks.

  1087. Higher minimum wages (all opposed by local Republicans) have done well in initiative states generally, regardless of red/blue (off the top of my head in recent years, Arizona, Colorado, Missouri, and Nebraska).
    Maine too, although not 60-40.

  1088. Higher minimum wages (all opposed by local Republicans) have done well in initiative states generally, regardless of red/blue (off the top of my head in recent years, Arizona, Colorado, Missouri, and Nebraska).
    Maine too, although not 60-40.

  1089. Brexit, and whatever other movements are out there to split countries apart into smaller, more politically and demographically homogeneous entities, seem to inspire a lot of wrongheaded nationalism, and probably won’t really work that ways.
    Agreed. And with the rest of sapient’s 09.10 too, pretty much.

  1090. Brexit, and whatever other movements are out there to split countries apart into smaller, more politically and demographically homogeneous entities, seem to inspire a lot of wrongheaded nationalism, and probably won’t really work that ways.
    Agreed. And with the rest of sapient’s 09.10 too, pretty much.

  1091. Brexit, and whatever other movements are out there to split countries apart into smaller, more politically and demographically homogeneous entities, seem to inspire a lot of wrongheaded nationalism, and probably won’t really work that ways.
    It seems to me that those advocating for a split have tightly limited objectives. They generally want to split a polity where they are a minority** just enough to give one where their views are a majority. But no further — tough on those who are in the minority in the new polity.
    A federal type solution has one overwhelming facet: those involved have to be willing to tolerate a great deal of variation in view. I may feel that, for example, arranged marriages (arranged, not forced) are a terrible idea. But I have to let others, who are fine with them to use them.
    (Not a hypothetical example, by the way. I have a coworker who had met her husband perhaps 5 times total before the wedding. They may have bent the rules to the extend of holding hands once when they met at Trader Joe’s. But certainly nothing so intimate as a hug! Yet several years on, they seem quite happy.)
    Not saying you have to tolerate things that do harm, real objective harm. But stuff that is merely different, and that you wouldn’t want for yourself? Or that just offend your sensibilities? “Different strokes” and all that.
    ** or a numerical majority, but without political power.

  1092. Brexit, and whatever other movements are out there to split countries apart into smaller, more politically and demographically homogeneous entities, seem to inspire a lot of wrongheaded nationalism, and probably won’t really work that ways.
    It seems to me that those advocating for a split have tightly limited objectives. They generally want to split a polity where they are a minority** just enough to give one where their views are a majority. But no further — tough on those who are in the minority in the new polity.
    A federal type solution has one overwhelming facet: those involved have to be willing to tolerate a great deal of variation in view. I may feel that, for example, arranged marriages (arranged, not forced) are a terrible idea. But I have to let others, who are fine with them to use them.
    (Not a hypothetical example, by the way. I have a coworker who had met her husband perhaps 5 times total before the wedding. They may have bent the rules to the extend of holding hands once when they met at Trader Joe’s. But certainly nothing so intimate as a hug! Yet several years on, they seem quite happy.)
    Not saying you have to tolerate things that do harm, real objective harm. But stuff that is merely different, and that you wouldn’t want for yourself? Or that just offend your sensibilities? “Different strokes” and all that.
    ** or a numerical majority, but without political power.

  1093. Higher minimum wages (all opposed by local Republicans) have done well in initiative states generally, regardless of red/blue (off the top of my head in recent years, Arizona, Colorado, Missouri, and Nebraska).
    An interesting question might be: What would it take (politically; I understand the legislative process) for those states which do not currently provide for initiative, which are a majority, to start doing so? Maybe someone familiar with the history of initiative legislation can help.

  1094. Higher minimum wages (all opposed by local Republicans) have done well in initiative states generally, regardless of red/blue (off the top of my head in recent years, Arizona, Colorado, Missouri, and Nebraska).
    An interesting question might be: What would it take (politically; I understand the legislative process) for those states which do not currently provide for initiative, which are a majority, to start doing so? Maybe someone familiar with the history of initiative legislation can help.

  1095. It seems to me that those advocating for a split have tightly limited objectives. They generally want to split a polity where they are a minority** just enough to give one where their views are a majority. But no further — tough on those who are in the minority in the new polity.
    An interesting perspective, and intuitively sounds correct.
    I’ll have to think around this.

  1096. It seems to me that those advocating for a split have tightly limited objectives. They generally want to split a polity where they are a minority** just enough to give one where their views are a majority. But no further — tough on those who are in the minority in the new polity.
    An interesting perspective, and intuitively sounds correct.
    I’ll have to think around this.

  1099. FWIW, I was calling him far left for the purposes of my discussion with McKinney. He’s not exactly far left in historical European terms, just by today’s standards. And I do actually think he’d be a pretty disastrous PM, partly because he’s an ideologue, and a not very bright one at that, but not so bad that I wouldn’t vote for him if the alternative was a Trump-type.

  1100. FWIW, I was calling him far left for the purposes of my discussion with McKinney. He’s not exactly far left in historical European terms, just by today’s standards. And I do actually think he’d be a pretty disastrous PM, partly because he’s an ideologue, and a not very bright one at that, but not so bad that I wouldn’t vote for him if the alternative was a Trump-type.

  1101. Actually Corbyn isn’t the far left boogeyman, that people tend to portray him as
    How far left or far right someone is depends on a couple of things. One is a comparison with other politicians in the same place. For example, I would be totally unsurprised to discover that thete are countries where Senator Warren’s views would mark her as an unexceptional center-right politician. But for the US, she’s definitely on the left. So to argue that Corbyn isn’t far left, you have to compare him to other UK politicians. (Today, as GftNC notes.)
    The other factor is the views of the person looking. In my experience, very few people consider their own views extreme. I know lots of self-described liberals, but damn few radical liberals. Similarly, even people who I would call quite reactionary usually describe themselves as something like “sensible conservatives” — nothing extreme. In both cases, politicians who they agree with obviously don’t qualify as extreme either.
    Who’s a boogeyman is a seperate discussion. 😉

  1102. Actually Corbyn isn’t the far left boogeyman, that people tend to portray him as
    How far left or far right someone is depends on a couple of things. One is a comparison with other politicians in the same place. For example, I would be totally unsurprised to discover that thete are countries where Senator Warren’s views would mark her as an unexceptional center-right politician. But for the US, she’s definitely on the left. So to argue that Corbyn isn’t far left, you have to compare him to other UK politicians. (Today, as GftNC notes.)
    The other factor is the views of the person looking. In my experience, very few people consider their own views extreme. I know lots of self-described liberals, but damn few radical liberals. Similarly, even people who I would call quite reactionary usually describe themselves as something like “sensible conservatives” — nothing extreme. In both cases, politicians who they agree with obviously don’t qualify as extreme either.
    Who’s a boogeyman is a seperate discussion. 😉

  1103. You have a point there, wj.
    Just so you know, I describe myself as handsome and charming. So, for example, I don’t consider Bernie Sanders to be slovenly or abrasive in the least.
    –TP

  1104. You have a point there, wj.
    Just so you know, I describe myself as handsome and charming. So, for example, I don’t consider Bernie Sanders to be slovenly or abrasive in the least.
    –TP

  1111. Corbyn’s foreign-policy views are extreme – he has a history of supporting any notionally leftist “freedom fighters”, howsoever murderous.

  1112. Corbyn’s foreign-policy views are extreme – he has a history of supporting any notionally leftist “freedom fighters”, howsoever murderous.

  1115. Actually Corbyn isn’t the far left boogeyman, that people tend to portray him as – that is if one bothers to take a look at his policies:
    Maybe, maybe not. In my mind he is beyond doubt an anti-Semite. To hell with him.

  1116. Actually Corbyn isn’t the far left boogeyman, that people tend to portray him as – that is if one bothers to take a look at his policies:
    Maybe, maybe not. In my mind he is beyond doubt an anti-Semite. To hell with him.

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