by Ugh
Poor now former DHS Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen quit yesterday (or, rather, was shoved out the door) as it seems that, despite separating thousands of children from their parents at the border and then admitting it might take two years to reunite them all (which, really, if you were 2 when you were separated from your parents is only 100% of your life, so shruggy), she wasn't quite as cruel as Trump and salt of the earth adviser Ramsay Bolton Stephen Miller wished her to be, and now she shall ascend to the great Fox News commentariat post in the sky.
Two years ago I thought noting the United States might put up a sort of reverse Berlin Wall on the border where machine gun nests were set to shoot anyone crossing the border on sight was (kind of) an absurd illustration of Trump's approach to the border. Not so sure anymore.
When W left I worried that the worst dregs of his administration would return to play significant roles the next time the GOP "won" the presidency. If only.
Cruelty and sadism all the way down in every aspect of this monstrosity.
It will be avenged.
Cruelty and sadism all the way down in every aspect of this monstrosity.
It will be avenged.
The shttiest part is the accompanying stupidity. Can’t we have competent totalitarians? This is the United States of America, after all!!!
The shttiest part is the accompanying stupidity. Can’t we have competent totalitarians? This is the United States of America, after all!!!
U.S. Secret Service Director out too.
The entire American domestic security apparatus is being purged and retooled, not to protect Americans or the country, but to protect one corrupt, tax-evading, traitorous, fingerfucking lout and his criminal family and inner circle, and to persecute and hunt down his enemies.
The Republican Party must be destroyed and made illegal on American soil.
All else is blithering inaction.
U.S. Secret Service Director out too.
The entire American domestic security apparatus is being purged and retooled, not to protect Americans or the country, but to protect one corrupt, tax-evading, traitorous, fingerfucking lout and his criminal family and inner circle, and to persecute and hunt down his enemies.
The Republican Party must be destroyed and made illegal on American soil.
All else is blithering inaction.
The shttiest part is the accompanying stupidity.
No, I’m pretty sure the cruelty is the worst part.
It will be avenged.
Not soon or thoroughly enough.
The shttiest part is the accompanying stupidity.
No, I’m pretty sure the cruelty is the worst part.
It will be avenged.
Not soon or thoroughly enough.
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2019/04/trumps-dhs-get-even-authoritarian-racist
What are the few remaining sane republicans going to do about this. Move soon and decisively or it will taken out of your hands, which are good for little else but counting your fucking tax cuts, and the ruthlessness that is required to purge this country of its fascist element will be turned on you as well.
These filth can’t wait for the coming Civil War:
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2019/04/anti-anti-trump-vote
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2019/04/trumps-dhs-get-even-authoritarian-racist
What are the few remaining sane republicans going to do about this. Move soon and decisively or it will taken out of your hands, which are good for little else but counting your fucking tax cuts, and the ruthlessness that is required to purge this country of its fascist element will be turned on you as well.
These filth can’t wait for the coming Civil War:
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2019/04/anti-anti-trump-vote
Good heavens, I’ve just read this prophetic quotation from Walt Whitman in the New York Review of Books, in a piece about Walt Whitman and his faithful chronicler:
This is the link, but I am suddenly overcome by very strange deja vu, I wonder whether someone here quoted this recently?
Anyway, admittedly more of America is tilled and cultivated than it was in Whitman’s day, but still, this seems eerily prescient…
Good heavens, I’ve just read this prophetic quotation from Walt Whitman in the New York Review of Books, in a piece about Walt Whitman and his faithful chronicler:
This is the link, but I am suddenly overcome by very strange deja vu, I wonder whether someone here quoted this recently?
Anyway, admittedly more of America is tilled and cultivated than it was in Whitman’s day, but still, this seems eerily prescient…
John Thullen’s Campos piece from LGM is interesting, depressing, and probably a pretty accurate (at least partial) explanation from the “semi-sane” right for why Trump’s approval ratings stubbornly refuse to drop below 40%. Goddamn.
John Thullen’s Campos piece from LGM is interesting, depressing, and probably a pretty accurate (at least partial) explanation from the “semi-sane” right for why Trump’s approval ratings stubbornly refuse to drop below 40%. Goddamn.
If this descent into madness keeps up, that whole ‘Russhier’ thing will be nothing but a distant memory.
We ain’t seen nothin’ yet.
If this descent into madness keeps up, that whole ‘Russhier’ thing will be nothing but a distant memory.
We ain’t seen nothin’ yet.
Yes Trump is a bad guy. He’s personally corrupt. He sexually assaults women, or at least boasts of doing so. He says racist inflammatory stuff. All that is bad. But all this has been established, over and over again. Harping on it serves no purpose except to make people who hold their noses and support Trump anyway feel as if they’re being told they’re bad persons for doing so. And that makes people dig in and support him all the more.
Is that a suggestion that if we all stopped telling the ugly truth about Trump, ‘people’ would stop supporting him? If so, I don’t believe it.
Yes Trump is a bad guy. He’s personally corrupt. He sexually assaults women, or at least boasts of doing so. He says racist inflammatory stuff. All that is bad. But all this has been established, over and over again. Harping on it serves no purpose except to make people who hold their noses and support Trump anyway feel as if they’re being told they’re bad persons for doing so. And that makes people dig in and support him all the more.
Is that a suggestion that if we all stopped telling the ugly truth about Trump, ‘people’ would stop supporting him? If so, I don’t believe it.
“Is that a suggestion that if we all stopped telling the ugly truth about Trump, ‘people’ would stop supporting him?”
I wouldnt think so, but it is a valid question as to how much time should be spent on it vs. more positive messages that put the alternatives in stark relief.
“Is that a suggestion that if we all stopped telling the ugly truth about Trump, ‘people’ would stop supporting him?”
I wouldnt think so, but it is a valid question as to how much time should be spent on it vs. more positive messages that put the alternatives in stark relief.
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/04/donald-trump-is-tired-of-following-the-law/
When we see his tax returns and the Mueller report in full, we’ll
learn that he has never followed the law, except where it says feel free to be a predator unto your fellow man and woman.
This is precisely the crux of what garnered his stolen election, the conservative corrupt life ethic of getting rid of laws inconvenient to them and breaking the laws that are left for the rest of us.
This will not stand.
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/04/donald-trump-is-tired-of-following-the-law/
When we see his tax returns and the Mueller report in full, we’ll
learn that he has never followed the law, except where it says feel free to be a predator unto your fellow man and woman.
This is precisely the crux of what garnered his stolen election, the conservative corrupt life ethic of getting rid of laws inconvenient to them and breaking the laws that are left for the rest of us.
This will not stand.
this seems eerily prescient…
Funny, that.
Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events.
Lincoln, from his Cooper Union address, on the topic of Mitch McConnell.
In that supposed event, you say, you will destroy the Union; and then, you say, the great crime of having destroyed it will be upon us! A highwayman holds a pistol to my ear, and mutters through his teeth, “Stand and deliver, or I shall kill you, and then you will be a murderer!”
Ibid, on the topic of Trump supporters.
SSDD. This is not a new conversation we’re having.
it is a valid question as to how much time should be spent on it vs. more positive messages that put the alternatives in stark relief.
Should we wrap it up in ribbons, too, and deliver it with a long-stemmed rose and a box of chocolates?
Trump is a crook and a scoundrel, and he is destroying the basic norms and traditions that make it possible for people with widely divergent points of view to live together peaceably in the same polity.
The single most consistent motivation cited by people who voted for Trump was their desire to send somebody to DC who would break shit.
Mission accomplished.
There is a tactical, pragmatic motivation for not calling people out for their irresponsibility and general callous disregard for anything other than their sense of resentment and anger.
But this isn’t just about Trump and what a dick he is. It’s about the policies that he champions, and the animosity and malice that motivates them, and the deep resonance that that animosity and malice finds in his supporters.
There isn’t a way to talk about any of this stuff without addressing that. That is the sticking point.
People don’t want to feel like they are bad people for embracing hateful and malicious attitudes and policies. And somehow it is the responsibility of people like me to somehow thread the needle and address all of the bile without hurting their feelings or offending them.
I don’t know how to do that. I’m not a therapist, I’m not a saint, I’m not a freaking buddha. It is well beyond me.
So I just don’t talk to them.
Ask somebody else to do it, I got too much else on my plate.
this seems eerily prescient…
Funny, that.
Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events.
Lincoln, from his Cooper Union address, on the topic of Mitch McConnell.
In that supposed event, you say, you will destroy the Union; and then, you say, the great crime of having destroyed it will be upon us! A highwayman holds a pistol to my ear, and mutters through his teeth, “Stand and deliver, or I shall kill you, and then you will be a murderer!”
Ibid, on the topic of Trump supporters.
SSDD. This is not a new conversation we’re having.
it is a valid question as to how much time should be spent on it vs. more positive messages that put the alternatives in stark relief.
Should we wrap it up in ribbons, too, and deliver it with a long-stemmed rose and a box of chocolates?
Trump is a crook and a scoundrel, and he is destroying the basic norms and traditions that make it possible for people with widely divergent points of view to live together peaceably in the same polity.
The single most consistent motivation cited by people who voted for Trump was their desire to send somebody to DC who would break shit.
Mission accomplished.
There is a tactical, pragmatic motivation for not calling people out for their irresponsibility and general callous disregard for anything other than their sense of resentment and anger.
But this isn’t just about Trump and what a dick he is. It’s about the policies that he champions, and the animosity and malice that motivates them, and the deep resonance that that animosity and malice finds in his supporters.
There isn’t a way to talk about any of this stuff without addressing that. That is the sticking point.
People don’t want to feel like they are bad people for embracing hateful and malicious attitudes and policies. And somehow it is the responsibility of people like me to somehow thread the needle and address all of the bile without hurting their feelings or offending them.
I don’t know how to do that. I’m not a therapist, I’m not a saint, I’m not a freaking buddha. It is well beyond me.
So I just don’t talk to them.
Ask somebody else to do it, I got too much else on my plate.
it is a valid question as to how much time should be spent on it vs. more positive messages that put the alternatives in stark relief.
Tell us Marty, what if anything might persuade you to vote D in the next presidential election? A positive message about the wonders of the D candidate (pick anyone from the field)? Or the horrors of another term of Trump?
it is a valid question as to how much time should be spent on it vs. more positive messages that put the alternatives in stark relief.
Tell us Marty, what if anything might persuade you to vote D in the next presidential election? A positive message about the wonders of the D candidate (pick anyone from the field)? Or the horrors of another term of Trump?
As an aside, stuff like this makes me nuts.
The headline:
We actually do know how to confront it. Go to war, kill the bastards until they give up, and then hang their leaders.
So let’s not go there.
All you jerks with 20 AR-15’s and 10 years supply of Spam down in the basement, dreaming of the day that you can kill some libs, take note.
As an aside, stuff like this makes me nuts.
The headline:
We actually do know how to confront it. Go to war, kill the bastards until they give up, and then hang their leaders.
So let’s not go there.
All you jerks with 20 AR-15’s and 10 years supply of Spam down in the basement, dreaming of the day that you can kill some libs, take note.
We actually do know how to confront it. Go to war, kill the bastards until they give up, and then hang their leaders.
So let’s not go there.
Despite Kagan’s history, I found that essay to be very good, except where Kagan misrepresents the role of some of our foreign policy villains (that were his allies).
No, “we” don’t know how to confront authoritarianism. Our parents did. “We” haven’t yet unseated the authoritarians who occupy the seat of power in our own country. This time, “we” don’t have a government to organize our war. “We” aren’t going to do it without a government.
So let’s not go there? Should we go there if we could? I was talking to someone a year or so ago, who suggested that losing all of those lives fighting WWII may not have actually been worth it, because things may have worked themselves out after awhile anyway. I have an aversion to considering that possibility, much less believing it. But that’s actually close to where we find ourselves.
I hate the people who are occupying our government, and deny their legitimacy. I hope that we can organize their departure peacefully. I wish I didn’t have such strong doubts that we can. And if we can’t, we have no idea what to do, or how far these ongoing atrocities will go.
We actually do know how to confront it. Go to war, kill the bastards until they give up, and then hang their leaders.
So let’s not go there.
Despite Kagan’s history, I found that essay to be very good, except where Kagan misrepresents the role of some of our foreign policy villains (that were his allies).
No, “we” don’t know how to confront authoritarianism. Our parents did. “We” haven’t yet unseated the authoritarians who occupy the seat of power in our own country. This time, “we” don’t have a government to organize our war. “We” aren’t going to do it without a government.
So let’s not go there? Should we go there if we could? I was talking to someone a year or so ago, who suggested that losing all of those lives fighting WWII may not have actually been worth it, because things may have worked themselves out after awhile anyway. I have an aversion to considering that possibility, much less believing it. But that’s actually close to where we find ourselves.
I hate the people who are occupying our government, and deny their legitimacy. I hope that we can organize their departure peacefully. I wish I didn’t have such strong doubts that we can. And if we can’t, we have no idea what to do, or how far these ongoing atrocities will go.
Two years ago I thought noting the United States might put up a sort of reverse Berlin Wall on the border where machine gun nests were set to shoot anyone crossing the border on sight was (kind of) an absurd illustration of Trump’s approach to the border. Not so sure anymore.
Did you catch the detail that Kirstjen Nielsen apparently bought herself some additional time in office (whether consciously or just dumb luck I hesitate to guess) because of the border patrol guys teargassing asylum speakers? Apparently Trump loved it.
It’s not so much the cruelty, despicable as that is. It’s the petty cruelty that Trump, Miller, et al. seem to revel in.
Two years ago I thought noting the United States might put up a sort of reverse Berlin Wall on the border where machine gun nests were set to shoot anyone crossing the border on sight was (kind of) an absurd illustration of Trump’s approach to the border. Not so sure anymore.
Did you catch the detail that Kirstjen Nielsen apparently bought herself some additional time in office (whether consciously or just dumb luck I hesitate to guess) because of the border patrol guys teargassing asylum speakers? Apparently Trump loved it.
It’s not so much the cruelty, despicable as that is. It’s the petty cruelty that Trump, Miller, et al. seem to revel in.
But this isn’t just about Trump and what a dick he is. It’s about the policies that he champions, and the animosity and malice that motivates them, and the deep resonance that that animosity and malice finds in his supporters.
There isn’t a way to talk about any of this stuff without addressing that. That is the sticking point.
It seems possible to talk about Trump’s policies, their effects (especially on the folks who voted for him), and what different policies should be. Without wasting any bandwidth on the animosity and malice that motivates them. Let alone what that says about his supporters. Don’t tell them the policies are cruel; point out that they are ineffective, counterproductive even.
If his supporters manage to work thru what supporting him says about them, fine. But no need to shove their noses in it. At least not until he’s out.
But this isn’t just about Trump and what a dick he is. It’s about the policies that he champions, and the animosity and malice that motivates them, and the deep resonance that that animosity and malice finds in his supporters.
There isn’t a way to talk about any of this stuff without addressing that. That is the sticking point.
It seems possible to talk about Trump’s policies, their effects (especially on the folks who voted for him), and what different policies should be. Without wasting any bandwidth on the animosity and malice that motivates them. Let alone what that says about his supporters. Don’t tell them the policies are cruel; point out that they are ineffective, counterproductive even.
If his supporters manage to work thru what supporting him says about them, fine. But no need to shove their noses in it. At least not until he’s out.
If I were the target of either the oft repeated, to the point of blah blah blah, Trump is a crook, then nothing is worth discussing.
I know hes an asshole and a racist, hes a crook just like Hillarys a crook. The only reason to say that over and over is because you have nothing else to offer. But, just like Trumps supporters who filled my social media decrying those lying liberals who made up the whole Russia thing and sold it to the rubes because they couldn’t stand to lose to Trump, let a negative quote come from somewhere in the 400 pages and my social media will be filled with hes a crook, I told you so, see he fooled the rubes. I hope you feel better when you get to say it.
At this point I just hate everybody.
If I were the target of either the oft repeated, to the point of blah blah blah, Trump is a crook, then nothing is worth discussing.
I know hes an asshole and a racist, hes a crook just like Hillarys a crook. The only reason to say that over and over is because you have nothing else to offer. But, just like Trumps supporters who filled my social media decrying those lying liberals who made up the whole Russia thing and sold it to the rubes because they couldn’t stand to lose to Trump, let a negative quote come from somewhere in the 400 pages and my social media will be filled with hes a crook, I told you so, see he fooled the rubes. I hope you feel better when you get to say it.
At this point I just hate everybody.
There is a second half to that first paragraph, but who really cares?
There is a second half to that first paragraph, but who really cares?
Obama suffered, with grace and class, the indignity of unyielding GOP full out obstructionist opposition for over 7 years. He just never got it. Institutionally, the Republican Party is a radical take-no-prisoners force that can brook no compromise.
He should have appointed Merrick Garland as an “interim justice” and told McConnell to go fuck himself.
We are nearing a boiling point similar to 1859. It’s time to take sides.
Obama suffered, with grace and class, the indignity of unyielding GOP full out obstructionist opposition for over 7 years. He just never got it. Institutionally, the Republican Party is a radical take-no-prisoners force that can brook no compromise.
He should have appointed Merrick Garland as an “interim justice” and told McConnell to go fuck himself.
We are nearing a boiling point similar to 1859. It’s time to take sides.
But no need to shove their noses in it.
This statement betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how politics works.
But no need to shove their noses in it.
This statement betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how politics works.
We are nearing a boiling point similar to 1859. It’s time to take sides.
I think this is true.
I’m not cheering on a civil war by any means, because I don’t think we’re in a particularly strong position to do anything but ending up looking like Syria. But I don’t know how much longer we can sit around and smile while these people become more and more blatant.
We are nearing a boiling point similar to 1859. It’s time to take sides.
I think this is true.
I’m not cheering on a civil war by any means, because I don’t think we’re in a particularly strong position to do anything but ending up looking like Syria. But I don’t know how much longer we can sit around and smile while these people become more and more blatant.
The only reason to say that over and over is because you have nothing else to offer.
Bollocks.
I’ve been hanging out here for, what, over a decade now. In all that time, I have made no constructive comment or suggestion.
All I have ever said is Trump sucks.
WTF. Seriously, screw it.
What are you bringing besides “Yeah, but Hilary…”? That, and tax cuts. You love freaking tax cuts.
It seems possible to talk about Trump’s policies, their effects (especially on the folks who voted for him), and what different policies should be.
Fine, let’s do it.
Immigration: people are coming here because they are freaking desperate and the odds of traveling 1000 miles with no guarantees about anything look better than staying home. A wall isn’t gonna make a difference. There are already physical barriers in most of the places that aren’t forbiddingly difficult for reasons of natural geography.
There is a near-term “emergency” in the sense of a big surge in people coming to apply for asylum. The right to request asylum is profoundly valuable, so we don’t want to throw that out the window. Instead, we need to gear up with temporary housing for the folks who are coming, and staff up to deal with the legal review. It’s possible that a lot of those people have a legitimate claim, so we need to prepare for that. Mostly we should see what we can do to mitigate whatever is making it worth their while to run away from wherever they are coming from.
Foreign policy: our nearest natural allies are the liberal democracies of Europe. Let’s not treat them like shit. Let’s be frank about what our interest are, and who most naturally aligns with our national interests. Let’s quit picking fights we don’t actually want to, and can’t afford to, get involved in.
Economy: we’re not going to build a healthy nation on a gig economy. We need to invest in infrastructure, education, and strategic investments in critical technology and forward-looking industries. Start with treating broadband like a common carrier, so that rural communities can have a shot at the future. I’m not talking about “make the farmers write code”, I’m talking about let rural communities have access.
I could go on for days. I have gone on for days, and weeks, and years.
It’s not just Trump, (R) policies are harmful, and have been so for the last 40 years. Productivity has skyrocketed, wages and compensation have not. That is the American story of the last 40 years.
Productivity has skyrocketed, wages and compensation have not. Productivity has skyrocketed, wages and compensation have not. Productivity has skyrocketed, wages and compensation have not. Productivity has skyrocketed, wages and compensation have not. Productivity has skyrocketed, wages and compensation have not.
Got it? Is my point clear?
Capital investors have taken the difference and put it in their own pockets. It’s breaking the freaking nation.
This is usually when McK, or Marty, or somebody weighs in to say I’m picking on the rich. By some measure, I am, personally, wealthy. By household wealth and income, I am modestly wealthy. What that means, in practical terms, is that my wife and I will not have to eat cat food to outlive our 401ks.
Lucky lucky us.
I don’t hate the rich. I’m not picking on the rich. I don’t give a crap if people have a lot of money. To pull a name out of a hat, I think Warren Buffet is kind of a national treasure.
Because he does his homework, engages in honest research, directs people’s capital to value-creating businesses, and in the process makes a thousand flowers grow.
That’s how it is supposed to work.
That’s not the norm anymore. And it’s f’d up.
You show me one Trumpie who is interested in discussing any of this stuff on the merits.
Find me one.
The only reason to say that over and over is because you have nothing else to offer.
Bollocks.
I’ve been hanging out here for, what, over a decade now. In all that time, I have made no constructive comment or suggestion.
All I have ever said is Trump sucks.
WTF. Seriously, screw it.
What are you bringing besides “Yeah, but Hilary…”? That, and tax cuts. You love freaking tax cuts.
It seems possible to talk about Trump’s policies, their effects (especially on the folks who voted for him), and what different policies should be.
Fine, let’s do it.
Immigration: people are coming here because they are freaking desperate and the odds of traveling 1000 miles with no guarantees about anything look better than staying home. A wall isn’t gonna make a difference. There are already physical barriers in most of the places that aren’t forbiddingly difficult for reasons of natural geography.
There is a near-term “emergency” in the sense of a big surge in people coming to apply for asylum. The right to request asylum is profoundly valuable, so we don’t want to throw that out the window. Instead, we need to gear up with temporary housing for the folks who are coming, and staff up to deal with the legal review. It’s possible that a lot of those people have a legitimate claim, so we need to prepare for that. Mostly we should see what we can do to mitigate whatever is making it worth their while to run away from wherever they are coming from.
Foreign policy: our nearest natural allies are the liberal democracies of Europe. Let’s not treat them like shit. Let’s be frank about what our interest are, and who most naturally aligns with our national interests. Let’s quit picking fights we don’t actually want to, and can’t afford to, get involved in.
Economy: we’re not going to build a healthy nation on a gig economy. We need to invest in infrastructure, education, and strategic investments in critical technology and forward-looking industries. Start with treating broadband like a common carrier, so that rural communities can have a shot at the future. I’m not talking about “make the farmers write code”, I’m talking about let rural communities have access.
I could go on for days. I have gone on for days, and weeks, and years.
It’s not just Trump, (R) policies are harmful, and have been so for the last 40 years. Productivity has skyrocketed, wages and compensation have not. That is the American story of the last 40 years.
Productivity has skyrocketed, wages and compensation have not. Productivity has skyrocketed, wages and compensation have not. Productivity has skyrocketed, wages and compensation have not. Productivity has skyrocketed, wages and compensation have not. Productivity has skyrocketed, wages and compensation have not.
Got it? Is my point clear?
Capital investors have taken the difference and put it in their own pockets. It’s breaking the freaking nation.
This is usually when McK, or Marty, or somebody weighs in to say I’m picking on the rich. By some measure, I am, personally, wealthy. By household wealth and income, I am modestly wealthy. What that means, in practical terms, is that my wife and I will not have to eat cat food to outlive our 401ks.
Lucky lucky us.
I don’t hate the rich. I’m not picking on the rich. I don’t give a crap if people have a lot of money. To pull a name out of a hat, I think Warren Buffet is kind of a national treasure.
Because he does his homework, engages in honest research, directs people’s capital to value-creating businesses, and in the process makes a thousand flowers grow.
That’s how it is supposed to work.
That’s not the norm anymore. And it’s f’d up.
You show me one Trumpie who is interested in discussing any of this stuff on the merits.
Find me one.
I don’t know how much longer we can sit around and smile while these people become more and more blatant.
My only real suggestion is this:
Get in their fucking way. Make it as difficult for them to act out their malicious agenda as you can.
Get in their way, in whatever way shape or form is available to you.
Your vote, your money, your time, your body. Whatever you can afford.
Get in their way.
I don’t know how much longer we can sit around and smile while these people become more and more blatant.
My only real suggestion is this:
Get in their fucking way. Make it as difficult for them to act out their malicious agenda as you can.
Get in their way, in whatever way shape or form is available to you.
Your vote, your money, your time, your body. Whatever you can afford.
Get in their way.
But no need to shove their noses in it.
This statement betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how politics works.
I can think of no significant progress that has been made in this country, in any useful area or direction, that has not involved the shoving of noses in something or other.
Not one.
Can anybody else?
And in most cases, “shoving their noses in it” has usually involved inconvenience TO THE PARTY DOING THE SHOVING ranging from opprobrium to assassination.
To be honest, all of that makes “harping on it” seem like kinda small beer.
Upthread I talked about war, and hanging their leaders. sapient noted that our parents did that, we did not.
Our parents did not do that to the fascists in their own country, only in other countries. Prior to our entry into WWII, Nazism, literally, was quite popular in this country. Likewise the Klan, likewise the Birchers, likewise any number of paranoid racist knothead fever dreams. No small number of our moms and dads were among them.
I know some of the generation or two before me in my own family were.
What changed all of that, to the degree that it was changed at all, was not going to war. It was people taking the brunt of that on themselves, until the freaking insanity of that kind of hatred became, at least, socially unacceptable.
Embarrassment for the haters on the one hand, on the other hand bombs, assassinations, systematic violence at the hands of the police and vigilantes.
That is what I, personally, see in our future. People I know, possibly including myself, are going to have to take fucking beatings before these Trumpie clowns figure this shit out.
That pisses me the hell off. I wish they’d just get over their stupid resentment and decide to join the human race.
But if that’s what it takes, so be it.
Gee, why can’t we all just talk nicely to the Trumpies? Because that isn’t gonna get it done. They are committed to this bullshit.
People are probably gonna get shot before this crap ends. And people I love are going to be the ones getting shot.
Because they will actually put themselves in the damned way.
Show me the Trumpie who’ll do that.
But no need to shove their noses in it.
This statement betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how politics works.
I can think of no significant progress that has been made in this country, in any useful area or direction, that has not involved the shoving of noses in something or other.
Not one.
Can anybody else?
And in most cases, “shoving their noses in it” has usually involved inconvenience TO THE PARTY DOING THE SHOVING ranging from opprobrium to assassination.
To be honest, all of that makes “harping on it” seem like kinda small beer.
Upthread I talked about war, and hanging their leaders. sapient noted that our parents did that, we did not.
Our parents did not do that to the fascists in their own country, only in other countries. Prior to our entry into WWII, Nazism, literally, was quite popular in this country. Likewise the Klan, likewise the Birchers, likewise any number of paranoid racist knothead fever dreams. No small number of our moms and dads were among them.
I know some of the generation or two before me in my own family were.
What changed all of that, to the degree that it was changed at all, was not going to war. It was people taking the brunt of that on themselves, until the freaking insanity of that kind of hatred became, at least, socially unacceptable.
Embarrassment for the haters on the one hand, on the other hand bombs, assassinations, systematic violence at the hands of the police and vigilantes.
That is what I, personally, see in our future. People I know, possibly including myself, are going to have to take fucking beatings before these Trumpie clowns figure this shit out.
That pisses me the hell off. I wish they’d just get over their stupid resentment and decide to join the human race.
But if that’s what it takes, so be it.
Gee, why can’t we all just talk nicely to the Trumpies? Because that isn’t gonna get it done. They are committed to this bullshit.
People are probably gonna get shot before this crap ends. And people I love are going to be the ones getting shot.
Because they will actually put themselves in the damned way.
Show me the Trumpie who’ll do that.
russell at 10:45: you’re right.
russell at 10:45: you’re right.
The only actual people I know committed to violence are on this blog, and that includes all the Trumpies on my social media. Not one of them talks about a civil war, not one talks about hurting the people who disagree with them, not one talks about who’s going to get shot.
The gig economy is a liberal creation, everyone just does what they want while the government provides the necessities. Everyone gets a job they love, doesnt matter how much money it pays. Do something you love and you never have to work a day in your life.
3.8% unemployment, wages rising, everything you complain about improving, so yeah, I’ll take tax cuts to extend that.
Obamacare failing, as planned by the Dems not the GOP. No Democrat is talking about how great it is, they are all running on repeal and replace.
The head of NATO is glad they are finally getting the money they are supposed to while Jamie Dimon, Clinton devotee and Obama friend says the trade skirmish is necessary and dont back down.
This is how shit works. Some stupid stuff some ok stuff.
The actual border issue is caused by Democrats making it clear to a whole industry of smugglers that now the border is open. As long as you have a child you get in so now they come by the tens of thousands, everyone with a child. Not even counting the unaccompanied children. Never have so many parents placed their children in so much danger.
An economic boon for smugglers and a humanitarian crisis stoked by Democrats.
Two months ago there was no crisis, Trump was just making it up to get his wall. Now everyone agrees there is a crisis, its all bullshit.
As I suspected there hasnt been a nuclear war, but Canada, France and Britain have pretty unpopular leaders, who should we be naturally aligning with this week?
Whst are you actually going to get in the way of? Mitch McConnell eating dinner?
Do you want something to worry about, really? Worry about the whole management structure of DHS plus the head of the secret service being replaced overnight. That is Trump creating his own personal defense force. Then sort out whether that’s a purely defensive action based on the kind of threats in this blog, or if there is a next show. In the meantime it would be worthwhile not being distracted by those tax cuts.
The only actual people I know committed to violence are on this blog, and that includes all the Trumpies on my social media. Not one of them talks about a civil war, not one talks about hurting the people who disagree with them, not one talks about who’s going to get shot.
The gig economy is a liberal creation, everyone just does what they want while the government provides the necessities. Everyone gets a job they love, doesnt matter how much money it pays. Do something you love and you never have to work a day in your life.
3.8% unemployment, wages rising, everything you complain about improving, so yeah, I’ll take tax cuts to extend that.
Obamacare failing, as planned by the Dems not the GOP. No Democrat is talking about how great it is, they are all running on repeal and replace.
The head of NATO is glad they are finally getting the money they are supposed to while Jamie Dimon, Clinton devotee and Obama friend says the trade skirmish is necessary and dont back down.
This is how shit works. Some stupid stuff some ok stuff.
The actual border issue is caused by Democrats making it clear to a whole industry of smugglers that now the border is open. As long as you have a child you get in so now they come by the tens of thousands, everyone with a child. Not even counting the unaccompanied children. Never have so many parents placed their children in so much danger.
An economic boon for smugglers and a humanitarian crisis stoked by Democrats.
Two months ago there was no crisis, Trump was just making it up to get his wall. Now everyone agrees there is a crisis, its all bullshit.
As I suspected there hasnt been a nuclear war, but Canada, France and Britain have pretty unpopular leaders, who should we be naturally aligning with this week?
Whst are you actually going to get in the way of? Mitch McConnell eating dinner?
Do you want something to worry about, really? Worry about the whole management structure of DHS plus the head of the secret service being replaced overnight. That is Trump creating his own personal defense force. Then sort out whether that’s a purely defensive action based on the kind of threats in this blog, or if there is a next show. In the meantime it would be worthwhile not being distracted by those tax cuts.
Hilary was not a crook. She was an R-lite pol with inept campaign instincts but not in any sense a crook.
I waiver between thinking that Trump supporters are as hopelessly corrupt as he is and remembering that some are not. The Republicans in Congress are of course every bit as bad as Trump.
But there are voters who voted for Trump but who are not irredeemably awful people. Xochitl Torres Small won a plus ten Trump red district and she did it running on Dem positions on the issues. (tho she is not Dem on gun control). She did it by talking about bread and butter issues but presenting as a familiar and relatable figure and by being nice to everyone.
Trump voters and Republican voters in general exhibit a pattern of failing basic citizenship one oh one, but and also have shown that they are when it comes to politics both selfish and snobbish but some maybe only three or four percent are reachable on practical application of policy to their lives.
They suck tho when it comes to things like rule of law or principles of the Constitution or giving a shit about anyone but themselves.
BTW the threats of violence from the right are commonplace. Even my neighbor down the street, a Christian and retired businessman has posted several time son FB the rightwing line about needing a civil war to protect America from, well from other Americans. It is an natural consequence of Repubican rhetoric, the claim the Republican party has been making as their primary appeal: that they are the only real true Americans and are defending the real true American values etc etc etc. R base voters actually believe that shit. That’s why I think it is wrong to call them racists. They are not that narrowly focused. They despise and disrespect and dislike every one, all of us, all the rest of America.
Hilary was not a crook. She was an R-lite pol with inept campaign instincts but not in any sense a crook.
I waiver between thinking that Trump supporters are as hopelessly corrupt as he is and remembering that some are not. The Republicans in Congress are of course every bit as bad as Trump.
But there are voters who voted for Trump but who are not irredeemably awful people. Xochitl Torres Small won a plus ten Trump red district and she did it running on Dem positions on the issues. (tho she is not Dem on gun control). She did it by talking about bread and butter issues but presenting as a familiar and relatable figure and by being nice to everyone.
Trump voters and Republican voters in general exhibit a pattern of failing basic citizenship one oh one, but and also have shown that they are when it comes to politics both selfish and snobbish but some maybe only three or four percent are reachable on practical application of policy to their lives.
They suck tho when it comes to things like rule of law or principles of the Constitution or giving a shit about anyone but themselves.
BTW the threats of violence from the right are commonplace. Even my neighbor down the street, a Christian and retired businessman has posted several time son FB the rightwing line about needing a civil war to protect America from, well from other Americans. It is an natural consequence of Repubican rhetoric, the claim the Republican party has been making as their primary appeal: that they are the only real true Americans and are defending the real true American values etc etc etc. R base voters actually believe that shit. That’s why I think it is wrong to call them racists. They are not that narrowly focused. They despise and disrespect and dislike every one, all of us, all the rest of America.
But there are voters who voted for Trump but who are not irredeemably awful people.
Could that be the ten percent of the voters who voted for Obama in his last general election? Or the twelve percent of Bernie Bros who voted for him in the primary? 🙂
But there are voters who voted for Trump but who are not irredeemably awful people.
Could that be the ten percent of the voters who voted for Obama in his last general election? Or the twelve percent of Bernie Bros who voted for him in the primary? 🙂
we need to gear up with temporary housing for the folks who are coming, and staff up to deal with the legal review.
That, and reinstate aid to the countries they are fleeing. Better yet, ramp up the programs there which have been making a difference.
As with a lot of the problems Trump is on about, there are often quite obvious solutions. Just not the ones he is pushing. As a first approximation, do the opposite of Trump’s prescription, plus a few other obvious bits. (How hard is it to figure out that the way to address backlogged asylum courts is to add more immigration judges? Well, easy to see if one is not a politician.)
we need to gear up with temporary housing for the folks who are coming, and staff up to deal with the legal review.
That, and reinstate aid to the countries they are fleeing. Better yet, ramp up the programs there which have been making a difference.
As with a lot of the problems Trump is on about, there are often quite obvious solutions. Just not the ones he is pushing. As a first approximation, do the opposite of Trump’s prescription, plus a few other obvious bits. (How hard is it to figure out that the way to address backlogged asylum courts is to add more immigration judges? Well, easy to see if one is not a politician.)
The actual border issue is caused by Democrats making it clear to a whole industry of smugglers that now the border is open.
The thinking behind that, with a Republican administration in power, is so effed up that there is no engaging with it.
The actual border issue is caused by Democrats making it clear to a whole industry of smugglers that now the border is open.
The thinking behind that, with a Republican administration in power, is so effed up that there is no engaging with it.
“The better strategy would be to hand the asylum seekers work permits right away—not 180 days later—and release them with the proviso that if they don’t return for their hearing, they’d lose their visas. But if they do return, their visas would be renewed until the next hearing, and so on, until their cases are settled. It takes two years for the asylum process to play out right now, but so long as migrants keep showing up, even if takes longer to thoroughly investigate their situations, it wouldn’t matter. At the end of it, if their petition is denied, they’ll be deported, just as they are right now. But at least in the interim their upkeep wouldn’t be taxpayers’ headache.”
A Costless and Humane Fix to the Border Crisis: Give the asylum seekers work visas, but attach a condition.
“The better strategy would be to hand the asylum seekers work permits right away—not 180 days later—and release them with the proviso that if they don’t return for their hearing, they’d lose their visas. But if they do return, their visas would be renewed until the next hearing, and so on, until their cases are settled. It takes two years for the asylum process to play out right now, but so long as migrants keep showing up, even if takes longer to thoroughly investigate their situations, it wouldn’t matter. At the end of it, if their petition is denied, they’ll be deported, just as they are right now. But at least in the interim their upkeep wouldn’t be taxpayers’ headache.”
A Costless and Humane Fix to the Border Crisis: Give the asylum seekers work visas, but attach a condition.
The gig economy is a liberal creation, everyone just does what they want while the government provides the necessities.
The actual border issue is caused by Democrats making it clear to a whole industry of smugglers that now the border is open.
I have been telling you people for years now: water runs uphill on Marty’s planet.
Marty doesn’t hear anybody calling for violence in his FB feed, he says. Yeah, right. Killed any Supremes recently, Marty?
Enough with this crap about “threading needles” or “talking positively” to Trumpies and Trumpettes. Like Marty, they’ll be goddamned if they’ll vote for any Democrat for president. Not even if fucking Putin was the GOP nominee. They’re a lost cause.
“Ah, but think of the swing voters”, I hear you cry? Well, I do think of them. And I wonder how the hell Democrats at any level can promise them any sort of “results” without first getting He, Trump booted out of the White House. If “swing voters” fall for the notion that Democratic policies can be enacted while He, Trump wields His veto Sharpie and Mitch McConnell wields the filibuster if not the Majority, then those “swing voters” are not just fickle; they’re also stupid. But of course “swing voters” are basically people who generally vote Republican given the slightest pretext — such as anybody saying nasty things about Dear Leader.
If there’s hope, it lies with the Yutes. (“Did you say ‘Yutes’?” “Sorry, your honor. Youththths.) Plenty of them are gun-totin’ bible-thumpin’ racists who think they’re capitalists despite working part-time gigs to pay the rent or living with their parents, but more of them are NOT. The Yutes will inherit the world anyway; might as well try to mobilize them by explaining that they can’t have nice things if they let the Trumpies outvote them.
Oh, BTW: if you have to work for a living, you are part of the “working class”. Democrats don’t emphasize that enough, possibly because they’re afraid “swing-voting” lawyers and doctors and such would be offended.
Also, tax cuts: I’ve been saying for years that Democrats ought to have been proposing huge (YUGE!!) tax cuts for the “working class” and dared McConnell to filibuster them or Dubya (once upon a time) and He, Trump (nowadays) to veto them. People who can do arithmetic know that it’s the deficit spending, not the particular form of taxation that caused the deficit, which “stimulates The Economy”. But “swing voters” always loves them some tax cuts, so show them who actually stands in the way of tax cuts for them. When you don’t have the power to deliver, at least put on a good show.
–TP
The gig economy is a liberal creation, everyone just does what they want while the government provides the necessities.
The actual border issue is caused by Democrats making it clear to a whole industry of smugglers that now the border is open.
I have been telling you people for years now: water runs uphill on Marty’s planet.
Marty doesn’t hear anybody calling for violence in his FB feed, he says. Yeah, right. Killed any Supremes recently, Marty?
Enough with this crap about “threading needles” or “talking positively” to Trumpies and Trumpettes. Like Marty, they’ll be goddamned if they’ll vote for any Democrat for president. Not even if fucking Putin was the GOP nominee. They’re a lost cause.
“Ah, but think of the swing voters”, I hear you cry? Well, I do think of them. And I wonder how the hell Democrats at any level can promise them any sort of “results” without first getting He, Trump booted out of the White House. If “swing voters” fall for the notion that Democratic policies can be enacted while He, Trump wields His veto Sharpie and Mitch McConnell wields the filibuster if not the Majority, then those “swing voters” are not just fickle; they’re also stupid. But of course “swing voters” are basically people who generally vote Republican given the slightest pretext — such as anybody saying nasty things about Dear Leader.
If there’s hope, it lies with the Yutes. (“Did you say ‘Yutes’?” “Sorry, your honor. Youththths.) Plenty of them are gun-totin’ bible-thumpin’ racists who think they’re capitalists despite working part-time gigs to pay the rent or living with their parents, but more of them are NOT. The Yutes will inherit the world anyway; might as well try to mobilize them by explaining that they can’t have nice things if they let the Trumpies outvote them.
Oh, BTW: if you have to work for a living, you are part of the “working class”. Democrats don’t emphasize that enough, possibly because they’re afraid “swing-voting” lawyers and doctors and such would be offended.
Also, tax cuts: I’ve been saying for years that Democrats ought to have been proposing huge (YUGE!!) tax cuts for the “working class” and dared McConnell to filibuster them or Dubya (once upon a time) and He, Trump (nowadays) to veto them. People who can do arithmetic know that it’s the deficit spending, not the particular form of taxation that caused the deficit, which “stimulates The Economy”. But “swing voters” always loves them some tax cuts, so show them who actually stands in the way of tax cuts for them. When you don’t have the power to deliver, at least put on a good show.
–TP
Also, tax cuts: I’ve been saying for years that Democrats ought to have been proposing huge (YUGE!!) tax cuts for the “working class” and dared McConnell to filibuster them or Dubya (once upon a time) and He, Trump (nowadays) to veto them.
A couple of the candidates for the nomination appear to have figured this one out.
Also, tax cuts: I’ve been saying for years that Democrats ought to have been proposing huge (YUGE!!) tax cuts for the “working class” and dared McConnell to filibuster them or Dubya (once upon a time) and He, Trump (nowadays) to veto them.
A couple of the candidates for the nomination appear to have figured this one out.
This is out of control stuff…
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/08/politics/trump-family-separation-el-paso-kirstjen-nielsen/
According to multiple sources, the President wanted families separated even if they came in at a legal port of entry and were legal asylum seekers. The President wanted families separated even if they were apprehended within the US. He thinks the separations work to deter migrants from coming.
Sources told CNN that Nielsen tried to explain they could not bring the policy back because of court challenges, and White House staffers tried to explain it would be an unmitigated PR disaster.
“He just wants to separate families,” said a senior administration official.
DHS Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen’s ouster exposes Trump’s immigration crisis
Last night, on the second floor of the East Wing of the White House residence — in a room called the yellow oval — Nielsen, Mulvaney and the President met. Nielsen tried to present a path forward that was legal and in compliance with US laws but the President said to her, “This isn’t working.” And Nielsen did not disagree.
“At the end of the day,” a senior administration official said, “the President refuses to understand that the Department of Homeland Security is constrained by the laws.”
This is out of control stuff…
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/08/politics/trump-family-separation-el-paso-kirstjen-nielsen/
According to multiple sources, the President wanted families separated even if they came in at a legal port of entry and were legal asylum seekers. The President wanted families separated even if they were apprehended within the US. He thinks the separations work to deter migrants from coming.
Sources told CNN that Nielsen tried to explain they could not bring the policy back because of court challenges, and White House staffers tried to explain it would be an unmitigated PR disaster.
“He just wants to separate families,” said a senior administration official.
DHS Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen’s ouster exposes Trump’s immigration crisis
Last night, on the second floor of the East Wing of the White House residence — in a room called the yellow oval — Nielsen, Mulvaney and the President met. Nielsen tried to present a path forward that was legal and in compliance with US laws but the President said to her, “This isn’t working.” And Nielsen did not disagree.
“At the end of the day,” a senior administration official said, “the President refuses to understand that the Department of Homeland Security is constrained by the laws.”
Do you want something to worry about, really? Worry about the whole management structure of DHS plus the head of the secret service being replaced overnight. That is Trump creating his own personal defense force. Then sort out whether that’s a purely defensive action based on the kind of threats in this blog
Yes, he is an authoritarian thug who is laying plans to hold power by force.
But it’s all because people like me made him do it.
He was driven to it by our “coexist” bumper stickers and our rainbow flags.
Seriously, I don’t know if you get how crazy that is. Nobody made him do any of that. It’s what he ran on and what he wants.
If and when he does put his “purely defensive” in place, your social media pals are probably not gonna do bugger all about it. If anyone does actually put their asses in the way of it, it will most likely be people I know and love.
Mitch McConnell’s dinner plans, however, are safe.
Do you want something to worry about, really? Worry about the whole management structure of DHS plus the head of the secret service being replaced overnight. That is Trump creating his own personal defense force. Then sort out whether that’s a purely defensive action based on the kind of threats in this blog
Yes, he is an authoritarian thug who is laying plans to hold power by force.
But it’s all because people like me made him do it.
He was driven to it by our “coexist” bumper stickers and our rainbow flags.
Seriously, I don’t know if you get how crazy that is. Nobody made him do any of that. It’s what he ran on and what he wants.
If and when he does put his “purely defensive” in place, your social media pals are probably not gonna do bugger all about it. If anyone does actually put their asses in the way of it, it will most likely be people I know and love.
Mitch McConnell’s dinner plans, however, are safe.
Sorry to make what Basil Fawlty would call a statement of the bleedin’ obvious, (hereinafter referred to as SOBO), but once again we find ourselves at an impasse, and one that simulates in miniature what is happening to America. Leaving aside extremists on either end of the spectrum – for whom, loosely speaking, people don’t matter only ideology does, whether it is the ideology of white supremacy or the ideology of destroy the rich – (and one of the many things we disagree about is what proportion of the population falls within each of those categories!) we are at the place where decent people, who (as Marty often says) want many of the same general outcomes, are unable to speak to each other. When Marty (who is self-evidently, from observation of him on this site for years, a decent guy) really, literally thinks that Hillary is as much a crook as Trump, or indeed a crook at all, and that the border issue is caused by the Democrats, and that Obama was a dictator, we are dealing with a reality distortion field that seems impossible to navigate. And obviously, he would say the same back. Since there is no longer any basis of agreed factual information, it’s hard to know how to tackle this (SOBO). As usual, I don’t disagree with a word russell says, and his choosing to mostly step back from these kinds of standoffs makes sense given realistic estimates of how much personal energy one can expend in what seems ongoing fruitless argument, but I can’t help feeling that our microcosm here is a sinister representation of the macro situation out there, and I am unwilling to believe that civil war is the only way to solve this. Surely it is not beyond the wit of humankind to come up with a solution, even on a micro-level?
Sorry to make what Basil Fawlty would call a statement of the bleedin’ obvious, (hereinafter referred to as SOBO), but once again we find ourselves at an impasse, and one that simulates in miniature what is happening to America. Leaving aside extremists on either end of the spectrum – for whom, loosely speaking, people don’t matter only ideology does, whether it is the ideology of white supremacy or the ideology of destroy the rich – (and one of the many things we disagree about is what proportion of the population falls within each of those categories!) we are at the place where decent people, who (as Marty often says) want many of the same general outcomes, are unable to speak to each other. When Marty (who is self-evidently, from observation of him on this site for years, a decent guy) really, literally thinks that Hillary is as much a crook as Trump, or indeed a crook at all, and that the border issue is caused by the Democrats, and that Obama was a dictator, we are dealing with a reality distortion field that seems impossible to navigate. And obviously, he would say the same back. Since there is no longer any basis of agreed factual information, it’s hard to know how to tackle this (SOBO). As usual, I don’t disagree with a word russell says, and his choosing to mostly step back from these kinds of standoffs makes sense given realistic estimates of how much personal energy one can expend in what seems ongoing fruitless argument, but I can’t help feeling that our microcosm here is a sinister representation of the macro situation out there, and I am unwilling to believe that civil war is the only way to solve this. Surely it is not beyond the wit of humankind to come up with a solution, even on a micro-level?
Surely it is not beyond the wit of humankind to come up with a solution, even on a micro-level?
I think we plan to try voting them out in 2020. I just worry that given structural realities and election interference our odds aren’t great.
As I said, a civil war would likely not result in a glorious outcome. This part of the conversation began with russell’s link to Robert Kagan’s article on authoritarianism, and whether we know what to do about it. I think we don’t. Unless our institutions somehow carry us through (as they are themselves being destroyed), we are clueless as to what action is actually effective.
Although I’m not going to discuss commenters here, I’m no longer giving a pass to people who aren’t fighting (in the political sense of that word) against what Trump is doing.
The quote: “The actual border issue is caused by Democrats making it clear to a whole industry of smugglers that now the border is open. As long as you have a child you get in so now they come by the tens of thousands, everyone with a child. Not even counting the unaccompanied children. Never have so many parents placed their children in so much danger.”
People who are so blind and willfully ignorant that they aren’t looking at the conditions that are causing these parents and unaccompanied minors to come to the United States are not worth any benefit of the doubt about their decency. This is how atrocities happen, not because people concerned about those atrocities are musing about how to make it stop.
Surely it is not beyond the wit of humankind to come up with a solution, even on a micro-level?
I think we plan to try voting them out in 2020. I just worry that given structural realities and election interference our odds aren’t great.
As I said, a civil war would likely not result in a glorious outcome. This part of the conversation began with russell’s link to Robert Kagan’s article on authoritarianism, and whether we know what to do about it. I think we don’t. Unless our institutions somehow carry us through (as they are themselves being destroyed), we are clueless as to what action is actually effective.
Although I’m not going to discuss commenters here, I’m no longer giving a pass to people who aren’t fighting (in the political sense of that word) against what Trump is doing.
The quote: “The actual border issue is caused by Democrats making it clear to a whole industry of smugglers that now the border is open. As long as you have a child you get in so now they come by the tens of thousands, everyone with a child. Not even counting the unaccompanied children. Never have so many parents placed their children in so much danger.”
People who are so blind and willfully ignorant that they aren’t looking at the conditions that are causing these parents and unaccompanied minors to come to the United States are not worth any benefit of the doubt about their decency. This is how atrocities happen, not because people concerned about those atrocities are musing about how to make it stop.
Beyond some kind of hand-wavy “we all want to live in peace, we all love our children and want them to do well” airy-fairyness, we don’t want the same things.
What Marty thinks is good is not what I think is good. That doesn’t make Marty a bad guy, and it doesn’t make me a bad guy. It just puts our goals at odds.
The solution, at both the micro and macro levels, is that nobody gets everything they want. But trying to find some “middle ground” that we can “all agree on” is a non-starter. It’s not there.
My opinion.
Beyond some kind of hand-wavy “we all want to live in peace, we all love our children and want them to do well” airy-fairyness, we don’t want the same things.
What Marty thinks is good is not what I think is good. That doesn’t make Marty a bad guy, and it doesn’t make me a bad guy. It just puts our goals at odds.
The solution, at both the micro and macro levels, is that nobody gets everything they want. But trying to find some “middle ground” that we can “all agree on” is a non-starter. It’s not there.
My opinion.
russell, I only disagree in this sense: Marty has said he wants certain kinds of safety net, healthcare solutions etc that a) separate him from many Rs, and b) you have sometimes not completely disagreed with, it’s how you get there that’s the source of disagreement. It’s true that you (we) think the ways he and the Rs want to get there are the reasons for many of the existing (and increasing) problems, and there’s zero agreement about the way to put it right, but the actual aims seem slightly more detailed than the airy-fairyness you describe.
russell, I only disagree in this sense: Marty has said he wants certain kinds of safety net, healthcare solutions etc that a) separate him from many Rs, and b) you have sometimes not completely disagreed with, it’s how you get there that’s the source of disagreement. It’s true that you (we) think the ways he and the Rs want to get there are the reasons for many of the existing (and increasing) problems, and there’s zero agreement about the way to put it right, but the actual aims seem slightly more detailed than the airy-fairyness you describe.
This is how atrocities happen, not because people concerned about those atrocities are musing about how to make it stop.
I would never want my musing about how to overcome entrenched mutually exclusive attitudes/opinions to substitute for action, whether political or otherwise. When fighting is necessary, as it sometimes is, I accept it. But I don’t see how continuing to think about ways it can be avoided is a bad thing.
This is how atrocities happen, not because people concerned about those atrocities are musing about how to make it stop.
I would never want my musing about how to overcome entrenched mutually exclusive attitudes/opinions to substitute for action, whether political or otherwise. When fighting is necessary, as it sometimes is, I accept it. But I don’t see how continuing to think about ways it can be avoided is a bad thing.
He’s from Barcelona.
He’s from Barcelona.
OK, let’s take the vileness of Trump’s character as a given. That’s a pretty good reason already to vote for Not Trump, but there’s much much more.
1) He’s indifferent to reality. He’s not interested in finding out facts, and he doesn’t care about the difference between truth and falsehood. No one can make good decisions in the real world without knowing what’s real.
2) He appoints bad people to work for him (it should be ‘for the USA’, but isn’t). The one qualification is to agree with Trump and tell him how great he is. Competence is irrelevant. Awareness of reality is a negative.
3) He, with the Republican Party behind him, is against democracy.
4) His foreign policy is based on which leaders he takes a liking to. And the leaders he likes are authoritarians who butter him up.
5) Trade policy. Trade wars are stupid and damaging.
6) The border, and immigration. Trump’s policy is cruel. And not fact based.
7) The climate. AGW is real. Trump wants to ignore it, and burn more coal. Because ameliorating AGW has a cost, whereas pretending AGW doesn’t exist is free if you’re immune to facts.
8) The economy. Contrary to popular belief, the president can usually have little effect on the economy in the short term. (He can do a lot of damage by being asleep at the wheel when something important is going wrong, like GW Bush: I can’t say who would have done better, but certainly not Trump.) He can create a short-term boost with deficit spending, which is a good idea only in a crisis (Obama, not Trump), because at other times the long-term cost of the increased debt outweighs the short-term gains.
The president ought to concentrate on improving economic conditions in the medium to long term – education and infrastructure are the things to look at. Trump cares only about the short term.
9) Would you hire Trump to run your whelk stall? No, neither would anyone. So why hire him to run the country?
OK, let’s take the vileness of Trump’s character as a given. That’s a pretty good reason already to vote for Not Trump, but there’s much much more.
1) He’s indifferent to reality. He’s not interested in finding out facts, and he doesn’t care about the difference between truth and falsehood. No one can make good decisions in the real world without knowing what’s real.
2) He appoints bad people to work for him (it should be ‘for the USA’, but isn’t). The one qualification is to agree with Trump and tell him how great he is. Competence is irrelevant. Awareness of reality is a negative.
3) He, with the Republican Party behind him, is against democracy.
4) His foreign policy is based on which leaders he takes a liking to. And the leaders he likes are authoritarians who butter him up.
5) Trade policy. Trade wars are stupid and damaging.
6) The border, and immigration. Trump’s policy is cruel. And not fact based.
7) The climate. AGW is real. Trump wants to ignore it, and burn more coal. Because ameliorating AGW has a cost, whereas pretending AGW doesn’t exist is free if you’re immune to facts.
8) The economy. Contrary to popular belief, the president can usually have little effect on the economy in the short term. (He can do a lot of damage by being asleep at the wheel when something important is going wrong, like GW Bush: I can’t say who would have done better, but certainly not Trump.) He can create a short-term boost with deficit spending, which is a good idea only in a crisis (Obama, not Trump), because at other times the long-term cost of the increased debt outweighs the short-term gains.
The president ought to concentrate on improving economic conditions in the medium to long term – education and infrastructure are the things to look at. Trump cares only about the short term.
9) Would you hire Trump to run your whelk stall? No, neither would anyone. So why hire him to run the country?
Pro Bono: So why hire him to run the country?
That phrasing makes a realization dawn in my head. From what I’ve seen of them, supporters of He, Trump really want their Dear Leader to “run the country”.
Pro Bono and other sane people are perfectly aware that US presidents only run the administration, which is not even the whole of The Government.
–TP
Pro Bono: So why hire him to run the country?
That phrasing makes a realization dawn in my head. From what I’ve seen of them, supporters of He, Trump really want their Dear Leader to “run the country”.
Pro Bono and other sane people are perfectly aware that US presidents only run the administration, which is not even the whole of The Government.
–TP
I only disagree in this sense: Marty has said he wants certain kinds of safety net, healthcare solutions etc
I think you misunderstand what I’m after. I want the safety net to become trivial, something used by maybe 1 percent, or a half percent, of the population. In a perfect world, I’d like to see it become obsolete.
Look, Marty says this:
I say this. And I say this, which needs to be considered in light of
this. Also, this.
Some folks will make the point that wages don’t tell the whole tale, you have to consider total comp. Unfortunately, what drives increases in total comp is largely the cost of health insurance. Both workers *and* employers are paying more and more and more, for a basic level of services. Services that are available in most of the first world as a matter of course. And it costs those socialist hell-holes less per person than we pay.
I want people who get their asses out of bed every day and go to work to be able to live on what they make, without worrying about where they’re gonna get the money if they have to buy a set of tires. Let alone if they get a cancer diagnosis. That’s what I want.
Marty appears to want all of the folks working in the gig economy to go get a real job. Which is, frankly, insulting to thousands if not millions of people who work their asses off every day and nonetheless live with daily financial insecurity.
So no, we don’t all want the same things.
I only disagree in this sense: Marty has said he wants certain kinds of safety net, healthcare solutions etc
I think you misunderstand what I’m after. I want the safety net to become trivial, something used by maybe 1 percent, or a half percent, of the population. In a perfect world, I’d like to see it become obsolete.
Look, Marty says this:
I say this. And I say this, which needs to be considered in light of
this. Also, this.
Some folks will make the point that wages don’t tell the whole tale, you have to consider total comp. Unfortunately, what drives increases in total comp is largely the cost of health insurance. Both workers *and* employers are paying more and more and more, for a basic level of services. Services that are available in most of the first world as a matter of course. And it costs those socialist hell-holes less per person than we pay.
I want people who get their asses out of bed every day and go to work to be able to live on what they make, without worrying about where they’re gonna get the money if they have to buy a set of tires. Let alone if they get a cancer diagnosis. That’s what I want.
Marty appears to want all of the folks working in the gig economy to go get a real job. Which is, frankly, insulting to thousands if not millions of people who work their asses off every day and nonetheless live with daily financial insecurity.
So no, we don’t all want the same things.
Those unemployment numbers used to be fake (according to Rump) when they were dropping under Obama. They suddenly became real when the trend continued under Rump. Funny, that.
Now Rump wants lower interest rates and, he said recently, quantitative easing (though I don’t think he knows what that is – perhaps he thinks just lower interest rates?) – on top of big deficits and foolish deregulation. An economy on steroids is not sustainable, anymore than Lyle Alzado was.
Those unemployment numbers used to be fake (according to Rump) when they were dropping under Obama. They suddenly became real when the trend continued under Rump. Funny, that.
Now Rump wants lower interest rates and, he said recently, quantitative easing (though I don’t think he knows what that is – perhaps he thinks just lower interest rates?) – on top of big deficits and foolish deregulation. An economy on steroids is not sustainable, anymore than Lyle Alzado was.
Your right russell, get a f’ing job. There’s 3.8% unemployment. Get a job that pays the Bill’s or dont ask me to pay them.
Your right russell, get a f’ing job. There’s 3.8% unemployment. Get a job that pays the Bill’s or dont ask me to pay them.
Isn’t there something paradoxical about complaining, particularly because unemployment is low, that people aren’t working?
Isn’t there something paradoxical about complaining, particularly because unemployment is low, that people aren’t working?
I don’t know if this has occurred to you or not, but most of the people who are working in the gig economy are doing so because that’s the work they can get.
That 3.8% unemployment *includes people who are working the gig economy*. Working a gig job *is working*.
Nothing says “I’m living the dream!” like driving for Uber.
SM fncking H.
I don’t know if this has occurred to you or not, but most of the people who are working in the gig economy are doing so because that’s the work they can get.
That 3.8% unemployment *includes people who are working the gig economy*. Working a gig job *is working*.
Nothing says “I’m living the dream!” like driving for Uber.
SM fncking H.
The gig economy is a liberal creation, everyone just does what they want while the government provides the necessities. Everyone gets a job they love, doesnt matter how much money it pays. Do something you love and you never have to work a day in your life.
Does this include Walmart employees on food stamps? Or are they okay with you because they might be miserable, and gig-ish enough?
The gig economy is a liberal creation, everyone just does what they want while the government provides the necessities. Everyone gets a job they love, doesnt matter how much money it pays. Do something you love and you never have to work a day in your life.
Does this include Walmart employees on food stamps? Or are they okay with you because they might be miserable, and gig-ish enough?
not gig-ish enough, that is.
not gig-ish enough, that is.
Walmart employees arent the gig economy. Neither is Uber driving. And. I don’t think people working three part time jobs should be counted as employed.
Walmart employees arent the gig economy. Neither is Uber driving. And. I don’t think people working three part time jobs should be counted as employed.
Right, at least on Walmart. If Uber isn’t gig, I’m sure what is. But the same outcome, if you’re working but not making enough to live, whether you like the work or not, and whether it’s a gig or not.
What I’m getting at here is, whose creation is the Walmart-style economy? Is that the liberals’ fault, too?
Right, at least on Walmart. If Uber isn’t gig, I’m sure what is. But the same outcome, if you’re working but not making enough to live, whether you like the work or not, and whether it’s a gig or not.
What I’m getting at here is, whose creation is the Walmart-style economy? Is that the liberals’ fault, too?
Why do I keep forgetting my nots? not sure!
Why do I keep forgetting my nots? not sure!
Walmart economy is the consumers fault. Big box, low cost, low wages but it’s hard to pin it on a party except the forever tension between paying fewer people a living minimum wage. GOP has come down on the no side of raising minimum wage. I personally think pros outweigh cons. But I am expected to return my car at the Walmart or any grocery because they dont have real baggers that take the groceries to your car anymore.
Walmart economy is the consumers fault. Big box, low cost, low wages but it’s hard to pin it on a party except the forever tension between paying fewer people a living minimum wage. GOP has come down on the no side of raising minimum wage. I personally think pros outweigh cons. But I am expected to return my car at the Walmart or any grocery because they dont have real baggers that take the groceries to your car anymore.
Neither is Uber driving.
That is an.. idiosyncratic position.
And. I don’t think people working three part time jobs should be counted as employed.
There goes yer 3.8%.
Neither is Uber driving.
That is an.. idiosyncratic position.
And. I don’t think people working three part time jobs should be counted as employed.
There goes yer 3.8%.
The only actual people I know committed to violence are on this blog, and that includes all the Trumpies on my social media. Not one of them talks about a civil war, not one talks about hurting the people who disagree with them, not one talks about who’s going to get shot.
You aren’t paying attention. Go to some conservative blog. Try Volokh. I spend some time there. You’ll find plenty of Trumpists suggesting violence. Then there is Robert Bowers, Cesar Sayoc, Dylann Roof, James Alex Shields and all the other “fine people” on the right who were in that march. The militia types nd those calling for “Second Amendment solutions.” That you deny all this suggests that, as Tony says, you see water running uphill.
The gig economy is a liberal creation, everyone just does what they want while the government provides the necessities. Everyone gets a job they love, doesnt matter how much money it pays. Do something you love and you never have to work a day in your life.
I have no idea what this means.
Obamacare failing, as planned by the Dems not the GOP. No Democrat is talking about how great it is, they are all running on repeal and replace.
This is crazy. The Republicans have tried every way they can to sabotage Obamacare. What was the Democrats devious plan for failure? There wasn’t one. And what does the GOP offer in its place? Nothing. Zip. The Republicans are simply opposed to helping people get health insurance. It’s that simple. They can’t admit it, so they spend years and years promising some wondrous non-existent plan, and the suckers buy it.
The head of NATO is glad they are finally getting the money they are supposed to while Jamie Dimon, Clinton devotee and Obama friend says the trade skirmish is necessary and dont back down.
Well, if Jamie Dimon says so it must be true. Is that all you got? Here is just a tiny fraction of what I’ve got.
The actual border issue is caused by Democrats making it clear to a whole industry of smugglers that now the border is open. As long as you have a child you get in so now they come by the tens of thousands, everyone with a child. Not even counting the unaccompanied children. Never have so many parents placed their children in so much danger.
Others have dealt with this. It’s too depressing for me to even try to comment on it.
As I suspected there hasnt been a nuclear war, but Canada, France and Britain have pretty unpopular leaders, who should we be naturally aligning with this week?
Those countries, and similar ones, regardless of the popularity of their leaders. Not Russia, even though I hear Putin got a pretty big majority in the last election.
The only actual people I know committed to violence are on this blog, and that includes all the Trumpies on my social media. Not one of them talks about a civil war, not one talks about hurting the people who disagree with them, not one talks about who’s going to get shot.
You aren’t paying attention. Go to some conservative blog. Try Volokh. I spend some time there. You’ll find plenty of Trumpists suggesting violence. Then there is Robert Bowers, Cesar Sayoc, Dylann Roof, James Alex Shields and all the other “fine people” on the right who were in that march. The militia types nd those calling for “Second Amendment solutions.” That you deny all this suggests that, as Tony says, you see water running uphill.
The gig economy is a liberal creation, everyone just does what they want while the government provides the necessities. Everyone gets a job they love, doesnt matter how much money it pays. Do something you love and you never have to work a day in your life.
I have no idea what this means.
Obamacare failing, as planned by the Dems not the GOP. No Democrat is talking about how great it is, they are all running on repeal and replace.
This is crazy. The Republicans have tried every way they can to sabotage Obamacare. What was the Democrats devious plan for failure? There wasn’t one. And what does the GOP offer in its place? Nothing. Zip. The Republicans are simply opposed to helping people get health insurance. It’s that simple. They can’t admit it, so they spend years and years promising some wondrous non-existent plan, and the suckers buy it.
The head of NATO is glad they are finally getting the money they are supposed to while Jamie Dimon, Clinton devotee and Obama friend says the trade skirmish is necessary and dont back down.
Well, if Jamie Dimon says so it must be true. Is that all you got? Here is just a tiny fraction of what I’ve got.
The actual border issue is caused by Democrats making it clear to a whole industry of smugglers that now the border is open. As long as you have a child you get in so now they come by the tens of thousands, everyone with a child. Not even counting the unaccompanied children. Never have so many parents placed their children in so much danger.
Others have dealt with this. It’s too depressing for me to even try to comment on it.
As I suspected there hasnt been a nuclear war, but Canada, France and Britain have pretty unpopular leaders, who should we be naturally aligning with this week?
Those countries, and similar ones, regardless of the popularity of their leaders. Not Russia, even though I hear Putin got a pretty big majority in the last election.
I think you misunderstand what I’m after. I want the safety net to become trivial, something used by maybe 1 percent, or a half percent, of the population. In a perfect world, I’d like to see it become obsolete.
No, I can see why you think that, but I don’t. I understand what you want, and I want it too. But the thing is, I think Marty wants it too, he is just locked into an adversarial headset which means he has to blame Dem policies for why things are the way they are, and the rest of the time be in denial about what is actually happening, because conveniently enough it has suited certain factions to encourage a hatred and distrust of science and facts. And I think he and a substantial portion of the US have been lulled into believing this by Gingrich/Rove/Fox/big Oil etc etc pick a card. Now, it would be fair for you to say a) I am mind-reading Marty b) I am being condescending, and it would be understandable if Marty felt not only a) and b) but also that we liberals/lefties are locked into an adversarial headset which means we have to blame R policies (or neo-Liberal ones) for why things are the way they are, and so on ad infinitum. I think the understandable fury, frustration, worry and fear among people who think like most of us on ObWi do is leading us deeper and deeper into a dangerous swamp of monstering the other side, many of whom are far from monsters. I’m not saying you do this, russell, in fact it is a remarkable quality of yours that you mainly resist it, but this is a tendency that is being stoked, and is becoming more and more prevalent, even among fair-minded people, and I feel that no good will come of it.
I think you misunderstand what I’m after. I want the safety net to become trivial, something used by maybe 1 percent, or a half percent, of the population. In a perfect world, I’d like to see it become obsolete.
No, I can see why you think that, but I don’t. I understand what you want, and I want it too. But the thing is, I think Marty wants it too, he is just locked into an adversarial headset which means he has to blame Dem policies for why things are the way they are, and the rest of the time be in denial about what is actually happening, because conveniently enough it has suited certain factions to encourage a hatred and distrust of science and facts. And I think he and a substantial portion of the US have been lulled into believing this by Gingrich/Rove/Fox/big Oil etc etc pick a card. Now, it would be fair for you to say a) I am mind-reading Marty b) I am being condescending, and it would be understandable if Marty felt not only a) and b) but also that we liberals/lefties are locked into an adversarial headset which means we have to blame R policies (or neo-Liberal ones) for why things are the way they are, and so on ad infinitum. I think the understandable fury, frustration, worry and fear among people who think like most of us on ObWi do is leading us deeper and deeper into a dangerous swamp of monstering the other side, many of whom are far from monsters. I’m not saying you do this, russell, in fact it is a remarkable quality of yours that you mainly resist it, but this is a tendency that is being stoked, and is becoming more and more prevalent, even among fair-minded people, and I feel that no good will come of it.
Big box, low cost, low wages but it’s hard to pin it on a party except the forever tension between paying fewer people a living minimum wage.
It’s not hard to pin it on a party. The folks who set employment policy at WalMart decide to pay a less-than-living wage.
The “forever tension” is between earned and unearned income.
I have no idea what this means.
Likewise.
Big box, low cost, low wages but it’s hard to pin it on a party except the forever tension between paying fewer people a living minimum wage.
It’s not hard to pin it on a party. The folks who set employment policy at WalMart decide to pay a less-than-living wage.
The “forever tension” is between earned and unearned income.
I have no idea what this means.
Likewise.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-walmart-workers/half-of-walmarts-workforce-are-part-time-workers-labor-group-idUSKCN1IQ295
https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/12/17231060/uber-drivers-freelancers-employees-judge-ruling
Marty, the one thing I don’t believe I remember when you were unemployed for years because you were aged out of the management workforce (IF we are dealing with a reliable narrator) and regaling us with the depredations of Obamacare which you were forced (not) to sign up for, is anyone at OBWI, because most of the fuck you conservatives had already left the premises by the time you became a regular, is anyone saying: Stop whining and get a fucking job!
I can’t be sure because that does sound like something I WOULD say to a conservative crying in his subsidized beer.
I would entertain you with the stories of my many acquaintances who live on the edge working several part-time jobs gigged or not who work their butts off with no prospect of getting ahead of the grind, but you tell us to stop citing personal anecdotes as evidence, even though you generalize your anecdotal personal experience with subsidized healthcare in Massachusetts to baseless claims that Everyone hated the arrangement.
Seriously, WHAT are you up to?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-walmart-workers/half-of-walmarts-workforce-are-part-time-workers-labor-group-idUSKCN1IQ295
https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/12/17231060/uber-drivers-freelancers-employees-judge-ruling
Marty, the one thing I don’t believe I remember when you were unemployed for years because you were aged out of the management workforce (IF we are dealing with a reliable narrator) and regaling us with the depredations of Obamacare which you were forced (not) to sign up for, is anyone at OBWI, because most of the fuck you conservatives had already left the premises by the time you became a regular, is anyone saying: Stop whining and get a fucking job!
I can’t be sure because that does sound like something I WOULD say to a conservative crying in his subsidized beer.
I would entertain you with the stories of my many acquaintances who live on the edge working several part-time jobs gigged or not who work their butts off with no prospect of getting ahead of the grind, but you tell us to stop citing personal anecdotes as evidence, even though you generalize your anecdotal personal experience with subsidized healthcare in Massachusetts to baseless claims that Everyone hated the arrangement.
Seriously, WHAT are you up to?
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jul/30/accidents-at-amazon-workers-left-to-suffer-after-warehouse-injuries
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jul/30/accidents-at-amazon-workers-left-to-suffer-after-warehouse-injuries
I think the understandable fury, frustration, worry and fear among people who think like most of us on ObWi do is leading us deeper and deeper into a dangerous swamp of monstering the other side, many of whom are far from monsters.
I guess I should have made it clear that I believe this swamp was actually lovingly created and tended by the aforementioned bad actors, my point being that it takes two to tango and we are allowing ourselves to be led into the dance.
I think the understandable fury, frustration, worry and fear among people who think like most of us on ObWi do is leading us deeper and deeper into a dangerous swamp of monstering the other side, many of whom are far from monsters.
I guess I should have made it clear that I believe this swamp was actually lovingly created and tended by the aforementioned bad actors, my point being that it takes two to tango and we are allowing ourselves to be led into the dance.
sapient: I think we plan to try voting them out in 2020. I just worry that given structural realities and election interference our odds aren’t great.
I think you are underestimating Trump here. Specifically, his ability, born of a disconnect from reality, to do things which are not only ineffective when it comes to his stated goals, but which actively hurt a lot of people who voted for him. Not the true-believers, of course, but they are only part of that 40% who nominally approve of what he’s been doing.
See, for example, his joining the suit against the ACA. If it succeeds, there are going to be a bunch of seriously unhappy Trump voters in deep red states. Trump might persuade them it was the Democrats’ fault . . . but only if the Republicans have an actual alternative health care plan ready to bring to a vote. (Which they don’t. And show no signs of getting together.)
Or consider his threat to choose the border. Senator Cornyn, and most other elected Republican officials in border states are real clear that it will cost them the election if it happens. But it will be unsurprising if Trump decides to try it anyway. Especially if he needs a distraction from his legal troubles.
And no doubt there are more bits of insanity that none of us here can imagine. Until the first tweet comes out and blindsided everyone.
I’m not saying 2020 is a foregone conclusion. Just that I think the prospects, even for taking control of the Senate, are pretty good.
sapient: I think we plan to try voting them out in 2020. I just worry that given structural realities and election interference our odds aren’t great.
I think you are underestimating Trump here. Specifically, his ability, born of a disconnect from reality, to do things which are not only ineffective when it comes to his stated goals, but which actively hurt a lot of people who voted for him. Not the true-believers, of course, but they are only part of that 40% who nominally approve of what he’s been doing.
See, for example, his joining the suit against the ACA. If it succeeds, there are going to be a bunch of seriously unhappy Trump voters in deep red states. Trump might persuade them it was the Democrats’ fault . . . but only if the Republicans have an actual alternative health care plan ready to bring to a vote. (Which they don’t. And show no signs of getting together.)
Or consider his threat to choose the border. Senator Cornyn, and most other elected Republican officials in border states are real clear that it will cost them the election if it happens. But it will be unsurprising if Trump decides to try it anyway. Especially if he needs a distraction from his legal troubles.
And no doubt there are more bits of insanity that none of us here can imagine. Until the first tweet comes out and blindsided everyone.
I’m not saying 2020 is a foregone conclusion. Just that I think the prospects, even for taking control of the Senate, are pretty good.
it takes two to tango and we are allowing ourselves to be led into the dance.
This isn’t a tango. I’m not calling Marty a bad guy, and I’m not monstering anybody. Anybody getting monstered is doing the monstering to their own selves, I have nothing to do with it. I kinda wish they’d cut it out.
Trump ran a toxic, malicious campaign that stoked and fed on the resentment of a hell of a lot of people. That’s still his go-to M.O., and it still works. People voted for him for all kinds of reasons, and most of those reasons suck from my point of view. There is no path to a dialog, at least with me, that doesn’t require addressing those reasons and all of my reasons for thinking that they suck.
Most Trump supporters aren’t interested in that, so the dialog doesn’t happen. Most people in general, see also Marty, aren’t interested in that conversation, so the dialog doesn’t happen.
So, the dialog doesn’t happen.
I guess the “dialog” could consist of me, and people like me, making nice about all of this crap, but that’s a pretty damned big ask.
So, the dialog doesn’t happen.
The amount of sheer uphill labor it takes to even get to a basic agreement on simple terms – gee, are part time workers in the labor force? How about if they work 50 or 60 hours a week, just in multiple part time jobs? Is driving for Uber a gig job? – is exhausting. All of that is before you even get into questions of what’s good or bad.
There are probably some sensible moderate folks out there who can engage with all of this in a constructive way. I’m happy to hand the torch over to them.
it takes two to tango and we are allowing ourselves to be led into the dance.
This isn’t a tango. I’m not calling Marty a bad guy, and I’m not monstering anybody. Anybody getting monstered is doing the monstering to their own selves, I have nothing to do with it. I kinda wish they’d cut it out.
Trump ran a toxic, malicious campaign that stoked and fed on the resentment of a hell of a lot of people. That’s still his go-to M.O., and it still works. People voted for him for all kinds of reasons, and most of those reasons suck from my point of view. There is no path to a dialog, at least with me, that doesn’t require addressing those reasons and all of my reasons for thinking that they suck.
Most Trump supporters aren’t interested in that, so the dialog doesn’t happen. Most people in general, see also Marty, aren’t interested in that conversation, so the dialog doesn’t happen.
So, the dialog doesn’t happen.
I guess the “dialog” could consist of me, and people like me, making nice about all of this crap, but that’s a pretty damned big ask.
So, the dialog doesn’t happen.
The amount of sheer uphill labor it takes to even get to a basic agreement on simple terms – gee, are part time workers in the labor force? How about if they work 50 or 60 hours a week, just in multiple part time jobs? Is driving for Uber a gig job? – is exhausting. All of that is before you even get into questions of what’s good or bad.
There are probably some sensible moderate folks out there who can engage with all of this in a constructive way. I’m happy to hand the torch over to them.
“Walmart economy is the consumers’ fault”
So was the electric light.
What you describe was Sam Walton’s business plan which I believe he said in just as many words and added the delightful touch of calling his underpaid employees ……. some of whom he put out their self made businesses down the street, but who remain consumers to the last ….. “associates”, which sounded better than “consumers by any other name” or the more directly accurate “fuckees”, but without the fellowship.
I pump my own gas. And quite frankly, I don’t get why I need all of these other overpaid interlopers on up the line to explore and frack the oil out of the ground, send it thru pipelines to be refined by human overhead and then advertised by overpaid liars who tout the additives in each brand which all came out of the same tap anyway, like shampoo, wine, and skin lotion.
I can do all of that for myself too as Thomas Jefferson aspired for us, including the friends with benefits among my non-paid labor. And I will not pay myself even a minimum wage and I’ll damped well like it and be thankful to have the work.
Americans are so confused about their relative but simultaneous roles as employees/workers, owners, consumers/shoppers, taxpayers, voters, not to mention self-styled noble human beings that we no longer know which way is up in this huge pile of horseshit we tunnel in around like dung beetles and call the American way.
If you want to get an earful of neo-Marxist critique about late modern capitalism and its depredations, haul on over to the The American Conservative.
It’s quite something.
I’ve been called a commie for years for holding the same views. Now I’ve been downgraded to Stalinist SJW for getting there first.
Not relevant but just as insane, one of their contributors wrote this load of crap the other day: “If we want fewer racists and incels, we need to build a society in which men can again flourish”, and a commenter on the thread added “when men give way to women, we will end up with the exact opposite”, to which I wrote, and was summarily refused publishing, first , explain the 236 years of manly racist, anti-woman, anti-gay history in this country in which all manly men were racists and incels, with some notable exceptions, and second if you want fewer of those ilk, be real men and physically kick their faces in every time they raise their pathetic, wanker voices.
“Walmart economy is the consumers’ fault”
So was the electric light.
What you describe was Sam Walton’s business plan which I believe he said in just as many words and added the delightful touch of calling his underpaid employees ……. some of whom he put out their self made businesses down the street, but who remain consumers to the last ….. “associates”, which sounded better than “consumers by any other name” or the more directly accurate “fuckees”, but without the fellowship.
I pump my own gas. And quite frankly, I don’t get why I need all of these other overpaid interlopers on up the line to explore and frack the oil out of the ground, send it thru pipelines to be refined by human overhead and then advertised by overpaid liars who tout the additives in each brand which all came out of the same tap anyway, like shampoo, wine, and skin lotion.
I can do all of that for myself too as Thomas Jefferson aspired for us, including the friends with benefits among my non-paid labor. And I will not pay myself even a minimum wage and I’ll damped well like it and be thankful to have the work.
Americans are so confused about their relative but simultaneous roles as employees/workers, owners, consumers/shoppers, taxpayers, voters, not to mention self-styled noble human beings that we no longer know which way is up in this huge pile of horseshit we tunnel in around like dung beetles and call the American way.
If you want to get an earful of neo-Marxist critique about late modern capitalism and its depredations, haul on over to the The American Conservative.
It’s quite something.
I’ve been called a commie for years for holding the same views. Now I’ve been downgraded to Stalinist SJW for getting there first.
Not relevant but just as insane, one of their contributors wrote this load of crap the other day: “If we want fewer racists and incels, we need to build a society in which men can again flourish”, and a commenter on the thread added “when men give way to women, we will end up with the exact opposite”, to which I wrote, and was summarily refused publishing, first , explain the 236 years of manly racist, anti-woman, anti-gay history in this country in which all manly men were racists and incels, with some notable exceptions, and second if you want fewer of those ilk, be real men and physically kick their faces in every time they raise their pathetic, wanker voices.
We wanted an adversary economy and society, red in tooth and claw, creatively destroying and we’ve achieved it.
Time to stop, assholes.
We wanted an adversary economy and society, red in tooth and claw, creatively destroying and we’ve achieved it.
Time to stop, assholes.
It’s the fault of the poor people who shop at Walmart that the people who work at Walmart are poor. And that the local mom-and-pop shops got put out of business. And that Walmart got tax abatements.
It’s the fault of the poor people who shop at Walmart that the people who work at Walmart are poor. And that the local mom-and-pop shops got put out of business. And that Walmart got tax abatements.
I guess the “dialog” could consist of me, and people like me, making nice about all of this crap, but that’s a pretty damned big ask
Certainly not what I’m asking. Seeing through the way we are manipulated into internecine warfare, and how that perpetuates our problems, is not the same as making nice. And if we have reached a point when you, russell, think I am accusing you of monstering anyone, then I had better STFU (I can see I spoke loosely when I said you “mainly” resisted it). Nothing could be further from my intention.
I guess the “dialog” could consist of me, and people like me, making nice about all of this crap, but that’s a pretty damned big ask
Certainly not what I’m asking. Seeing through the way we are manipulated into internecine warfare, and how that perpetuates our problems, is not the same as making nice. And if we have reached a point when you, russell, think I am accusing you of monstering anyone, then I had better STFU (I can see I spoke loosely when I said you “mainly” resisted it). Nothing could be further from my intention.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/turbotax-congress-ban-irs-free-tax-filing-service
I’m sitting here on my iPad while not 15 feet away my entire extended family, including my brother’s stepsons have been arguing for two days about, first, paying their fucking taxes, but second, whether or not to use TurboTax to do it, but no, by God, we have to pay as consumers to use Turbotax so we aren’t going to do THAT, that costs money, so we’ll just wing it and blame the gummint when we fuck up our tax returns and may I add some of these people have been on various forms of federal welfare and healthcare safety nets from time to time because they’ve lost their jobs, only to be accosted in the parking lot by the guy who fired them that they should “get a fucking job”‘ ad infinitum, ad nauseum.
So, may I say regarding this bill, in the most bipartisan tone I can muster, fuck America and burn it to the ground.
We deserve it. All houses have a pox upon them.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/turbotax-congress-ban-irs-free-tax-filing-service
I’m sitting here on my iPad while not 15 feet away my entire extended family, including my brother’s stepsons have been arguing for two days about, first, paying their fucking taxes, but second, whether or not to use TurboTax to do it, but no, by God, we have to pay as consumers to use Turbotax so we aren’t going to do THAT, that costs money, so we’ll just wing it and blame the gummint when we fuck up our tax returns and may I add some of these people have been on various forms of federal welfare and healthcare safety nets from time to time because they’ve lost their jobs, only to be accosted in the parking lot by the guy who fired them that they should “get a fucking job”‘ ad infinitum, ad nauseum.
So, may I say regarding this bill, in the most bipartisan tone I can muster, fuck America and burn it to the ground.
We deserve it. All houses have a pox upon them.
Seeing through the way we are manipulated into internecine warfare, and how that perpetuates our problems, is not the same as making nice.
I don’t see us as being manipulated into internecine warfare. Reasonable people are responding to an authoritarian playbook. You’ve resisted 20th century terms for what’s going on, and I am trying to be a better ObWi citizen, and trying to respect that, but things like:
1) public lying so that people can’t even expect the truth from our government officials
2) chronic disrespect of public institutions and public servants
3) dehumanizing people based on ethnicity and religion
4) blatant financial corruption and self-dealing
5) nepotism
6) making common cause with authoritarians in other countries and demeaning our own allies
I mean, the list goes on. We’re not being “manipulated” when we respond to the shredding of our democracy, and we’re not “monsterizing” when we blame those who are supporting these things for doing so to the detriment of our society.
wj talks about poltiical mistakes that Trump is making that will do him in, and I hope he’s right. But if we’d been playing on a level field, Trump wouldn’t be in power in the first place. What about foreign interference, and don’t think that it’s only about Trump. I believe Mitch McConnell and a lot of other Republicans have been compromised, and I think it’s likely that some Democrats have been tempted as well – which is why Bernie’s tax returns represent a real problem. The Executive branch of government is headed by an asset for hostile foreign powers. And we have to discuss nicely whether that’s even worth caring about.
We’re not being manipulated. We’re being occupied. We need to fight back.
Seeing through the way we are manipulated into internecine warfare, and how that perpetuates our problems, is not the same as making nice.
I don’t see us as being manipulated into internecine warfare. Reasonable people are responding to an authoritarian playbook. You’ve resisted 20th century terms for what’s going on, and I am trying to be a better ObWi citizen, and trying to respect that, but things like:
1) public lying so that people can’t even expect the truth from our government officials
2) chronic disrespect of public institutions and public servants
3) dehumanizing people based on ethnicity and religion
4) blatant financial corruption and self-dealing
5) nepotism
6) making common cause with authoritarians in other countries and demeaning our own allies
I mean, the list goes on. We’re not being “manipulated” when we respond to the shredding of our democracy, and we’re not “monsterizing” when we blame those who are supporting these things for doing so to the detriment of our society.
wj talks about poltiical mistakes that Trump is making that will do him in, and I hope he’s right. But if we’d been playing on a level field, Trump wouldn’t be in power in the first place. What about foreign interference, and don’t think that it’s only about Trump. I believe Mitch McConnell and a lot of other Republicans have been compromised, and I think it’s likely that some Democrats have been tempted as well – which is why Bernie’s tax returns represent a real problem. The Executive branch of government is headed by an asset for hostile foreign powers. And we have to discuss nicely whether that’s even worth caring about.
We’re not being manipulated. We’re being occupied. We need to fight back.
if we have reached a point when you, russell, think I am accusing you of monstering anyone, then I had better STFU
no worries, I don’t think that.
if we have reached a point when you, russell, think I am accusing you of monstering anyone, then I had better STFU
no worries, I don’t think that.
I believe Mitch McConnell and a lot of other Republicans have been compromised, and I think it’s likely that some Democrats have been tempted as well
I don’t really think McConnell has been compromised. I think he’s just drunk on power.
I console myself with the datum I saw recently (can’t find the cite right off, sorry) that his net (un)favorability ratings in his state are the worst in the Senate. My dream for 2020 is that he flat loses his seat — even if the Republicans keep the Senate, that would be a big step forward.
I believe Mitch McConnell and a lot of other Republicans have been compromised, and I think it’s likely that some Democrats have been tempted as well
I don’t really think McConnell has been compromised. I think he’s just drunk on power.
I console myself with the datum I saw recently (can’t find the cite right off, sorry) that his net (un)favorability ratings in his state are the worst in the Senate. My dream for 2020 is that he flat loses his seat — even if the Republicans keep the Senate, that would be a big step forward.
russell: I’m glad.
sapient: I don’t disagree with a lot of what you say, particularly your numbered list of concerns, but just because your democracy is being shredded (and I agree it is going that way, and ours isn’t so bloody healthy at the moment either) doesn’t mean there isn’t significant manipulation going on, and that certain factions/actors don’t benefit from the kind of stoking of internecine warfare that’s taking place. Rupert Murdoch, the Daily Mail, Koch-type billionaire backers of the GOP, Putin and the rest of the list of players who benefit from the rise of nativism and authoritarianism, destruction of the EU, damage to NATO etc etc: these are the people who need to be countered – many of the Trumpies are merely their unwitting pawns. Finding a way (I don’t have one) of making common cause so that people who are being encouraged to hate and monster each other see that this is benefitting somebody else to the detriment of everybody in the country, would be highly desirable. Trying to find such a way seems to me a worthwhile pursuit, no matter how difficult.
russell: I’m glad.
sapient: I don’t disagree with a lot of what you say, particularly your numbered list of concerns, but just because your democracy is being shredded (and I agree it is going that way, and ours isn’t so bloody healthy at the moment either) doesn’t mean there isn’t significant manipulation going on, and that certain factions/actors don’t benefit from the kind of stoking of internecine warfare that’s taking place. Rupert Murdoch, the Daily Mail, Koch-type billionaire backers of the GOP, Putin and the rest of the list of players who benefit from the rise of nativism and authoritarianism, destruction of the EU, damage to NATO etc etc: these are the people who need to be countered – many of the Trumpies are merely their unwitting pawns. Finding a way (I don’t have one) of making common cause so that people who are being encouraged to hate and monster each other see that this is benefitting somebody else to the detriment of everybody in the country, would be highly desirable. Trying to find such a way seems to me a worthwhile pursuit, no matter how difficult.
I think, for me, this could be a nice debate over a Diamante on the rocks with a twist. I think the gig economy definition has gone from a bunch of millennials really not wanting to work for someone else to part time crappy jobs that are cobbled together so a person can eat. Those are different things.
Walmart in little towns in the deep south is different than Walmart in Boston. In tons of ways. Walmart is a career choice in those deep south stores.
“There is no path to a dialog, at least with me, that doesn’t require addressing those reasons and all of my reasons for thinking that they suck”
I’m just curious what you think the second sentence in that dialog could be.
You:I think you voted for him because you’re racist,
ME: No that’s not why.
Tony: Yes you are
Me:………..
I think, for me, this could be a nice debate over a Diamante on the rocks with a twist. I think the gig economy definition has gone from a bunch of millennials really not wanting to work for someone else to part time crappy jobs that are cobbled together so a person can eat. Those are different things.
Walmart in little towns in the deep south is different than Walmart in Boston. In tons of ways. Walmart is a career choice in those deep south stores.
“There is no path to a dialog, at least with me, that doesn’t require addressing those reasons and all of my reasons for thinking that they suck”
I’m just curious what you think the second sentence in that dialog could be.
You:I think you voted for him because you’re racist,
ME: No that’s not why.
Tony: Yes you are
Me:………..
many of the Trumpies are merely their unwitting pawns
They need to gather their wits then, because their active collaboration is why those more powerful forces are succeeding. And, no, it’s not “both sides are to blame.”
Trying to find such a way seems to me a worthwhile pursuit, no matter how difficult.
That would be great. Again, I think we’re trying to make something happen with the elections in 2020. We also need to start working on Plan B.
many of the Trumpies are merely their unwitting pawns
They need to gather their wits then, because their active collaboration is why those more powerful forces are succeeding. And, no, it’s not “both sides are to blame.”
Trying to find such a way seems to me a worthwhile pursuit, no matter how difficult.
That would be great. Again, I think we’re trying to make something happen with the elections in 2020. We also need to start working on Plan B.
See, in our society there isnt supposed to be a Plan B. Win the election or dont.
See, in our society there isnt supposed to be a Plan B. Win the election or dont.
I think the gig economy definition has gone from a bunch of millennials really not wanting to work for someone else to part time crappy jobs that are cobbled together so a person can eat. Those are different things.
Do you mean during this thread? I’m not sure anyone was trying to change the definition of the gig economy, not that I agree that it was ever just something involving a bunch of those awful millennials. I think it was more a matter of whether the gig economy was the only area, or even the primary area, where people worked but didn’t make enough to live on. That and a disagreement about Uber “employees,” which, to my mind, are pretty much the definition of gig workers. Were you thinking just about musicians (who were also millennials)?
I think the gig economy definition has gone from a bunch of millennials really not wanting to work for someone else to part time crappy jobs that are cobbled together so a person can eat. Those are different things.
Do you mean during this thread? I’m not sure anyone was trying to change the definition of the gig economy, not that I agree that it was ever just something involving a bunch of those awful millennials. I think it was more a matter of whether the gig economy was the only area, or even the primary area, where people worked but didn’t make enough to live on. That and a disagreement about Uber “employees,” which, to my mind, are pretty much the definition of gig workers. Were you thinking just about musicians (who were also millennials)?
But he IS a racist.
And there he is.
What you personally Are or are not is irrelevant.
But there he is.
1939 Germany.
Me: I think you voted for him because you despise the Jews.
Hans: No, no. That’s not why. I voted for order and Germany’s honor, and because manhood must be restored to Germany and the stock market has gone straight up since 1932. True, I think he went too far when he invaded Czechoslovakia and the market did too because it plateaued for a time.
But then it resumed its climb, so I don’t understand what you are complaining about. The Jews, they are made to work too, those who are able.
Tony: But there he is. And the despised are despised and punished.
But he IS a racist.
And there he is.
What you personally Are or are not is irrelevant.
But there he is.
1939 Germany.
Me: I think you voted for him because you despise the Jews.
Hans: No, no. That’s not why. I voted for order and Germany’s honor, and because manhood must be restored to Germany and the stock market has gone straight up since 1932. True, I think he went too far when he invaded Czechoslovakia and the market did too because it plateaued for a time.
But then it resumed its climb, so I don’t understand what you are complaining about. The Jews, they are made to work too, those who are able.
Tony: But there he is. And the despised are despised and punished.
Win the election or dont.
I think you mean “win” the election.
Win the election or dont.
I think you mean “win” the election.
But he IS a racist.
And there he is.
What you personally Are or are not is irrelevant.
But there he is.
1937 Germany.
Me: I think you voted for him because you despise the Jews.
Hans: No, no. I voted for order, and because manhood must be restored to Germany and the stock market has gone straight up since 1932. True, I think he went too far
But he IS a racist.
And there he is.
What you personally Are or are not is irrelevant.
But there he is.
1937 Germany.
Me: I think you voted for him because you despise the Jews.
Hans: No, no. I voted for order, and because manhood must be restored to Germany and the stock market has gone straight up since 1932. True, I think he went too far
This iPad, it drives me a clrazy!
https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-administration-lets-miracle-hill-foster-agency-turn-away-catholics-and-jews?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning
Fuck them.
Steal elections or don’t.
A former FBI was quoted on a cable channel several months back, I can’t find a link, saying approvingly that the mission of the FBI for a years was to keep liberals and the Left out of government and being elected.
I want recounts and do overs of every election in the country since 1952 and I want reparations.
This iPad, it drives me a clrazy!
https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-administration-lets-miracle-hill-foster-agency-turn-away-catholics-and-jews?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning
Fuck them.
Steal elections or don’t.
A former FBI was quoted on a cable channel several months back, I can’t find a link, saying approvingly that the mission of the FBI for a years was to keep liberals and the Left out of government and being elected.
I want recounts and do overs of every election in the country since 1952 and I want reparations.
They just want to practice their religion freely, not impose it on … orphans.
They just want to practice their religion freely, not impose it on … orphans.
I think that, in many ways, what scares me the most about the 2020 election is that the Democrats will again (as they did in 2010) lose sight of just how critical it is in the medium (not to mention long) term to focus on state legislatures. If you do that (again), the negative effects will last far longer than even a second Trump term.
One might think that Wisconsin and North Carolina would provide sufficiently dramatic cases to keep attention focused. But is it actually happening?
I think that, in many ways, what scares me the most about the 2020 election is that the Democrats will again (as they did in 2010) lose sight of just how critical it is in the medium (not to mention long) term to focus on state legislatures. If you do that (again), the negative effects will last far longer than even a second Trump term.
One might think that Wisconsin and North Carolina would provide sufficiently dramatic cases to keep attention focused. But is it actually happening?
dialog (n.) A hearty inedible with an unfathomable gestation period and the shelf life of a ripe avocado, rarely observed in pairs, they always self-destruct when subjected to heated and/or strenuous criticism; a political non-entity begging to be taken seriously.
dialog (n.) A hearty inedible with an unfathomable gestation period and the shelf life of a ripe avocado, rarely observed in pairs, they always self-destruct when subjected to heated and/or strenuous criticism; a political non-entity begging to be taken seriously.
dialog (v.) to ceaselessly talk past one another.
dialog (v.) to ceaselessly talk past one another.
“There is no path to a dialog, at least with me, that doesn’t require addressing those reasons and all of my reasons for thinking that they suck”
I’m just curious what you think the second sentence in that dialog could be.
You:I think you voted for him because you’re racist,
ME: No that’s not why.
Tony: Yes you are
Me:………..
So, that was me, not Tony, and I’m happy to fill in the next sentence, on whatever topic you like.
I’ll pick one.
Me: I think “you” (where “you” is a Trump voter) voted for Trump because you agreed with his view and intended policies on immigration.
You: Yes, that’s right.
Me: Those policies damage families. Does that concern you?
You: …. place your answer here …
So, what I’m getting at here is that I’m not sure how to talk about this stuff without addressing the “those policies damage families” part.
I can fill in the blank on behalf of, for example, former DHS head Nielsen. Her response was:
Nielsen: We break up families every day. You get arrested, you go to jail, you don’t get to see your kids.
Which is plainly and obviously true on its face, but it fails to recognize the many distinctions we make when we talk about “break the law”. There are an extremely broad range of violations for which we do not incarcerate people, many of which are actually worse crimes under the US Code than entering the country without proper permission is.
We know all that, of course, so tedious to bring it all up again.
We also, in general, don’t take your kids and fucking lose them when we lock you up for crimes that call for incarceration.
So to me her response was callous, brutally so to be honest, and not actually on point. Robbing a bank is not overstaying a visa, or entering without documents, or requesting asylum. Even if your asylum request is bogus. If it’s bogus, you go home, nobody is really disputing that.
So, in my opinion, all of that needs to be on table if we’re going to talk about this stuff. Not just “Mexicans took my job”. You can bring up the “Mexicans took my job” thing, too, if you like, especially if a Mexican actually did take your job.
But you also have to also address the “they lost my kid” part. Because we did actually lose a lot of people’s kids. We lost their freaking kids, and nobody knows where they went. That needs to be part of the discussion, or we don’t actually have a dialog, we just have “you” bitching about Mexicans.
That’s where I’m coming from.
Pick any other topic you like, I’m happy to actually have the conversation if “you”, or even you, Marty, wants to have it.
But you have to want to actually have it, not just blow it off. If you want to get into the whole “why would somebody do that to their kids” thing, that’s also a topic worth exploring.
But only if you actually want to explore it, not just assume that Central Americans are a bunch of irresponsible idiots who put their kids’ lives in danger for no good reason.
Right?
Dialog is speaking and listening. Can’t forget the listening part.
“There is no path to a dialog, at least with me, that doesn’t require addressing those reasons and all of my reasons for thinking that they suck”
I’m just curious what you think the second sentence in that dialog could be.
You:I think you voted for him because you’re racist,
ME: No that’s not why.
Tony: Yes you are
Me:………..
So, that was me, not Tony, and I’m happy to fill in the next sentence, on whatever topic you like.
I’ll pick one.
Me: I think “you” (where “you” is a Trump voter) voted for Trump because you agreed with his view and intended policies on immigration.
You: Yes, that’s right.
Me: Those policies damage families. Does that concern you?
You: …. place your answer here …
So, what I’m getting at here is that I’m not sure how to talk about this stuff without addressing the “those policies damage families” part.
I can fill in the blank on behalf of, for example, former DHS head Nielsen. Her response was:
Nielsen: We break up families every day. You get arrested, you go to jail, you don’t get to see your kids.
Which is plainly and obviously true on its face, but it fails to recognize the many distinctions we make when we talk about “break the law”. There are an extremely broad range of violations for which we do not incarcerate people, many of which are actually worse crimes under the US Code than entering the country without proper permission is.
We know all that, of course, so tedious to bring it all up again.
We also, in general, don’t take your kids and fucking lose them when we lock you up for crimes that call for incarceration.
So to me her response was callous, brutally so to be honest, and not actually on point. Robbing a bank is not overstaying a visa, or entering without documents, or requesting asylum. Even if your asylum request is bogus. If it’s bogus, you go home, nobody is really disputing that.
So, in my opinion, all of that needs to be on table if we’re going to talk about this stuff. Not just “Mexicans took my job”. You can bring up the “Mexicans took my job” thing, too, if you like, especially if a Mexican actually did take your job.
But you also have to also address the “they lost my kid” part. Because we did actually lose a lot of people’s kids. We lost their freaking kids, and nobody knows where they went. That needs to be part of the discussion, or we don’t actually have a dialog, we just have “you” bitching about Mexicans.
That’s where I’m coming from.
Pick any other topic you like, I’m happy to actually have the conversation if “you”, or even you, Marty, wants to have it.
But you have to want to actually have it, not just blow it off. If you want to get into the whole “why would somebody do that to their kids” thing, that’s also a topic worth exploring.
But only if you actually want to explore it, not just assume that Central Americans are a bunch of irresponsible idiots who put their kids’ lives in danger for no good reason.
Right?
Dialog is speaking and listening. Can’t forget the listening part.
Win the election or dont.
And if you can’t win honestly, make it as fucking hard as possible for people who generally don’t vote for you to vote at all.
You have to tell the whole story, dude. Otherwise it’s just you b*tching about the libs.
Win the election or dont.
And if you can’t win honestly, make it as fucking hard as possible for people who generally don’t vote for you to vote at all.
You have to tell the whole story, dude. Otherwise it’s just you b*tching about the libs.
Because we did actually lose a lot of people’s kids. We lost their freaking kids, and nobody knows where they went.
Losing kids. Should be impeachable.
Besides all else, this is either willful cruelty or almost unfathomable stupidity or an absolute do-not-give-a-shit attitude.
I mean, how hard is it to keep track? Take some photos. Assign some ID numbers, write down some names, etc. How long would it take, using some decent database software, to set this up?
Boggling.
Because we did actually lose a lot of people’s kids. We lost their freaking kids, and nobody knows where they went.
Losing kids. Should be impeachable.
Besides all else, this is either willful cruelty or almost unfathomable stupidity or an absolute do-not-give-a-shit attitude.
I mean, how hard is it to keep track? Take some photos. Assign some ID numbers, write down some names, etc. How long would it take, using some decent database software, to set this up?
Boggling.
That’s a good doscussion russell.
Me: It does concern me, but it’s way more complex than that. Many of the kids that have been separated can’t be found because the family and friends they were placed with are hiding them. The government knows who they placed them with.
Plus, I think the laws on the books make it hard to have an effective immigration policy, and yes I believe they are criminals. Worse crimes, sure, but you go to jail for those too.
Our disagreement is also on the ultimate outcome, I think they should just be sent back to Mexico. Even if that’s not where they are from, it’s where they came from to try to enter illegally here. Mexico has done little to restrain the triangle countries refugees, but they have offered them asylum.
So by the time they get to our border the risk they are running from has been addressed.
If a family is caught illegally crossing our border the parents should bear the brunt of blameCNNif the family is damaged.
That’s a good doscussion russell.
Me: It does concern me, but it’s way more complex than that. Many of the kids that have been separated can’t be found because the family and friends they were placed with are hiding them. The government knows who they placed them with.
Plus, I think the laws on the books make it hard to have an effective immigration policy, and yes I believe they are criminals. Worse crimes, sure, but you go to jail for those too.
Our disagreement is also on the ultimate outcome, I think they should just be sent back to Mexico. Even if that’s not where they are from, it’s where they came from to try to enter illegally here. Mexico has done little to restrain the triangle countries refugees, but they have offered them asylum.
So by the time they get to our border the risk they are running from has been addressed.
If a family is caught illegally crossing our border the parents should bear the brunt of blameCNNif the family is damaged.
Thank you for the reply.
Briefly:
No, “the government” doesn’t always know who they placed them with. One agency might. And that agency doesn’t always have any way to associate the kid with the parents he or she belongs to, because the parents are the responsibility of some other agency.
So – “where’s my kid?” “Sorry, we don’t really know”.
And, I’m sure some of the caretakers hide them, and I’m sure they have good reasons for doing so.
As a point of fact, you will probably not go to jail for most crimes that are of equal severity to entering the US illegally. Certainly not for overstaying a visa, absolutely not for requesting asylum, which is not only not a crime, it is protected by international law.
But even plain old sneaking in is basically a misdemeanor.
If Mexico is offering asylum to Central American refugees and they don’t have a basis for asylum here, I have no problem with sending them to MX. I have a problem with talking about people as if, and treating them as if, they are stray animals.
We absolutely disagree as regards your last sentence. For people who are claiming asylum, in particular, they are people who have surrendered themselves to US authority. It is our responsibility to treat them in a humane and respectful manner.
But even people who are just simply trying to sneak in, same/same. Once they are in our custody, we are responsible for them, and we are obliged to treat them decently and with basic human respect.
Thank you for the reply.
Briefly:
No, “the government” doesn’t always know who they placed them with. One agency might. And that agency doesn’t always have any way to associate the kid with the parents he or she belongs to, because the parents are the responsibility of some other agency.
So – “where’s my kid?” “Sorry, we don’t really know”.
And, I’m sure some of the caretakers hide them, and I’m sure they have good reasons for doing so.
As a point of fact, you will probably not go to jail for most crimes that are of equal severity to entering the US illegally. Certainly not for overstaying a visa, absolutely not for requesting asylum, which is not only not a crime, it is protected by international law.
But even plain old sneaking in is basically a misdemeanor.
If Mexico is offering asylum to Central American refugees and they don’t have a basis for asylum here, I have no problem with sending them to MX. I have a problem with talking about people as if, and treating them as if, they are stray animals.
We absolutely disagree as regards your last sentence. For people who are claiming asylum, in particular, they are people who have surrendered themselves to US authority. It is our responsibility to treat them in a humane and respectful manner.
But even people who are just simply trying to sneak in, same/same. Once they are in our custody, we are responsible for them, and we are obliged to treat them decently and with basic human respect.
Seeking asylum is not a crime.
Seeking asylum is not a crime.
And The Donald made it quite clear that the ‘losing the kids’ stuff is not due to incompetence but a means of deterrence. Nielsen had to go because she refused to restart it and to go beyond that.
When the whole thing became public for the first time I almost expected that the next thing we would learn would be that crackPOTUS went full Franco and ran a lucrative adoption business with the stolen kids. What Orange-utan now sounds like (according to leaks) sounds more like he this time intended to go full Reichsführer and got apoplectic when his Eichwoman got cold feet.
And The Donald made it quite clear that the ‘losing the kids’ stuff is not due to incompetence but a means of deterrence. Nielsen had to go because she refused to restart it and to go beyond that.
When the whole thing became public for the first time I almost expected that the next thing we would learn would be that crackPOTUS went full Franco and ran a lucrative adoption business with the stolen kids. What Orange-utan now sounds like (according to leaks) sounds more like he this time intended to go full Reichsführer and got apoplectic when his Eichwoman got cold feet.
“Seeking asylum is not a crime.”
Crossing the border illegally and throwing your hands up and asking for asylum is still a crime.
And no, people should not be treated like stray animals. (Im not sure stray animals should be treated the way we treat stray animals). But the laws in place work at cross purposes with the disposition requirements of criminals and children to make a coherent policy tough to define.
Letting families into the country to disappear is not a policy solution.
“Seeking asylum is not a crime.”
Crossing the border illegally and throwing your hands up and asking for asylum is still a crime.
And no, people should not be treated like stray animals. (Im not sure stray animals should be treated the way we treat stray animals). But the laws in place work at cross purposes with the disposition requirements of criminals and children to make a coherent policy tough to define.
Letting families into the country to disappear is not a policy solution.
Letting families into the country to disappear is not a policy solution.
Why not?
Letting families into the country to disappear is not a policy solution.
Why not?
Crossing the border illegally and throwing your hands up and asking for asylum is still a crime.
No. It’s not. And we don’t want to make it one.
Evaluate the asylum claim and act accordingly.
I have no problem with re-visiting immigration law to help deal with changing circumstances. But we don’t want to make it illegal to request asylum, and in general we don’t want to be in the business of trying to read people’s minds to see if their claim is legitimate or not.
“A gang threatened to kill my kid and his entire family if he didn’t join” is actually not a bad basis for asylum.
I’m sure that some folks are trying to game the asylum law. They should be handled the way we treat anyone who tries to game the law.
Respect and observe the law, and if they don’t have a legitimate claim, they have to leave. That is sufficient.
Crossing the border illegally and throwing your hands up and asking for asylum is still a crime.
No. It’s not. And we don’t want to make it one.
Evaluate the asylum claim and act accordingly.
I have no problem with re-visiting immigration law to help deal with changing circumstances. But we don’t want to make it illegal to request asylum, and in general we don’t want to be in the business of trying to read people’s minds to see if their claim is legitimate or not.
“A gang threatened to kill my kid and his entire family if he didn’t join” is actually not a bad basis for asylum.
I’m sure that some folks are trying to game the asylum law. They should be handled the way we treat anyone who tries to game the law.
Respect and observe the law, and if they don’t have a legitimate claim, they have to leave. That is sufficient.
https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2018/jan/26/ronald-brownstein/did-senators-pass-immigration-reform-bills-2006-2013/
Also in the 1990s. P also had a republican majority in both Houses for two years and no comprehensive immigration reform was proposed by any of them.
Why?
To let it fester into an open wound as conservative business filth had their way by offshoring jobs and the to lie about, demagogue and hold up the hordes of the Other “invading” the country like a bloody rag for the hateful Buchananite endemic 49 % of the conservative population in this dumb country, for ruthless racist nationalist electoral advantage.
This will be avenged, along with so much more, by violence.
Not a wish, a prediction. A deserved fate for the malign scum in the Republican Party.
https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2018/jan/26/ronald-brownstein/did-senators-pass-immigration-reform-bills-2006-2013/
Also in the 1990s. P also had a republican majority in both Houses for two years and no comprehensive immigration reform was proposed by any of them.
Why?
To let it fester into an open wound as conservative business filth had their way by offshoring jobs and the to lie about, demagogue and hold up the hordes of the Other “invading” the country like a bloody rag for the hateful Buchananite endemic 49 % of the conservative population in this dumb country, for ruthless racist nationalist electoral advantage.
This will be avenged, along with so much more, by violence.
Not a wish, a prediction. A deserved fate for the malign scum in the Republican Party.
“blameCNNif”
Is that some sort of Incel Qnon code?
The parents of children on the Mayflower should be tried in absentia for the suffering they brought down on the heads of their children.
Same with all parents escaping brutality, poverty, and murder.
Off with their heads.
My God, what rot.
“blameCNNif”
Is that some sort of Incel Qnon code?
The parents of children on the Mayflower should be tried in absentia for the suffering they brought down on the heads of their children.
Same with all parents escaping brutality, poverty, and murder.
Off with their heads.
My God, what rot.
Why not?
Indeed. Let them come. If you really really desire a whole bunch of brown people here to pick your lettuce, clean your toilets, and slaughter your chickens for abysmally low wages, then citizenship does not strike me as a very high price to pay in return.
Why not?
Indeed. Let them come. If you really really desire a whole bunch of brown people here to pick your lettuce, clean your toilets, and slaughter your chickens for abysmally low wages, then citizenship does not strike me as a very high price to pay in return.
Why not?
Good question.
We have gone back and forth with this stuff. At various times, we’ve actively solicited immigration – including from “less desirable” sources – for one reason or another.
When my Italian great-grands came, the bar was:
* you either have to have family here, or a job lined up
* no obvious illness
* no apparent criminal record
* not an anarchist, as far as the guy at Ellis could tell
And that was that. And then, a generation or so later, we shut the door again. Until we decided to open it, again.
In my mind, (R)’s are the stupidest party ever. Hispanics, and Latins generally, are by and large socially conservative, family oriented, hard-working people. Everything (R)’s say they value, Latins are.
If they had any sense, they’d blow out the visa limit to 2M a year and allocate half of that, at a minimum, exclusively for Latins. They’d have a solid, unassailable majority, in both houses and probably the presidency, for the next two generations.
C’est la vie.
Why not?
Good question.
We have gone back and forth with this stuff. At various times, we’ve actively solicited immigration – including from “less desirable” sources – for one reason or another.
When my Italian great-grands came, the bar was:
* you either have to have family here, or a job lined up
* no obvious illness
* no apparent criminal record
* not an anarchist, as far as the guy at Ellis could tell
And that was that. And then, a generation or so later, we shut the door again. Until we decided to open it, again.
In my mind, (R)’s are the stupidest party ever. Hispanics, and Latins generally, are by and large socially conservative, family oriented, hard-working people. Everything (R)’s say they value, Latins are.
If they had any sense, they’d blow out the visa limit to 2M a year and allocate half of that, at a minimum, exclusively for Latins. They’d have a solid, unassailable majority, in both houses and probably the presidency, for the next two generations.
C’est la vie.
Further – everything I just said about Latins, same for Muslims.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make them think.
Further – everything I just said about Latins, same for Muslims.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make them think.
hes a crook just like Hillarys a crook.
Marty :
This is a gross falsehood, whether you admit it or not. Trump’s foundation was egregiously fraudulent; the Clinton foundation was not. Trump is firing Cabinet members because they tell him that his proposed actions are violations of black-letter law.
Frankly, I had thought better of you.
hes a crook just like Hillarys a crook.
Marty :
This is a gross falsehood, whether you admit it or not. Trump’s foundation was egregiously fraudulent; the Clinton foundation was not. Trump is firing Cabinet members because they tell him that his proposed actions are violations of black-letter law.
Frankly, I had thought better of you.
Like, for instance, what is the point of this?
Saving MLB roster positions for natural born Americans? For sure, nothing is gonna make America great like 35 – count ’em – fewer Cubans in the bigs.
My question for Trump and his supporters is always the same. Why be a dick? What the hell do you get out of it?
Fnck that hippie “good will” crap. American First!!
If Trump, or Rubio for that matter, had any sense, they’d be out in front of this, talking about how they paved the way for 35 Gifted But Put-Upon Young Athletes to come to the US, where their talents could have full expression and they could live the American dream and become gazillionaires.
I’m sure it makes sense to somebody, but that somebody is not me.
SMH
Like, for instance, what is the point of this?
Saving MLB roster positions for natural born Americans? For sure, nothing is gonna make America great like 35 – count ’em – fewer Cubans in the bigs.
My question for Trump and his supporters is always the same. Why be a dick? What the hell do you get out of it?
Fnck that hippie “good will” crap. American First!!
If Trump, or Rubio for that matter, had any sense, they’d be out in front of this, talking about how they paved the way for 35 Gifted But Put-Upon Young Athletes to come to the US, where their talents could have full expression and they could live the American dream and become gazillionaires.
I’m sure it makes sense to somebody, but that somebody is not me.
SMH
Yep, those Mayflower parents bypassed the port of entry, snuck past the border patrol and almost got deported. Luckily the immigration court ruled in their favor. What bs.
But I can assure you the natives did not want to be “invaded”.
And the nice ones that welcomed the foreigners eventually got shit on as well.
Yep, those Mayflower parents bypassed the port of entry, snuck past the border patrol and almost got deported. Luckily the immigration court ruled in their favor. What bs.
But I can assure you the natives did not want to be “invaded”.
And the nice ones that welcomed the foreigners eventually got shit on as well.
You’re not making sense. Just saying.
You’re not making sense. Just saying.
Yes I am.
I do agree the Cuban player thing is stupid. But, there are a bunch of Cubans in Miami that dont want anything good to happen in Cuba until they are free.
Rubio is part of that world. Only to say it makes more sense he would object.
Yes I am.
I do agree the Cuban player thing is stupid. But, there are a bunch of Cubans in Miami that dont want anything good to happen in Cuba until they are free.
Rubio is part of that world. Only to say it makes more sense he would object.
OK, so it’s cool for Rubio. Because all of the old Cubans, who were about five years old when the Revolution happened, hate hate hate hate hate the Cuban regime.
Why do the rest of us have to play along? It’s just fncking stupid.
And you know what? If Rubio was actually something like a leader, he’d figure that out and find a way to play it as a win for los viejos.
Drink horsey, drink.
OK, so it’s cool for Rubio. Because all of the old Cubans, who were about five years old when the Revolution happened, hate hate hate hate hate the Cuban regime.
Why do the rest of us have to play along? It’s just fncking stupid.
And you know what? If Rubio was actually something like a leader, he’d figure that out and find a way to play it as a win for los viejos.
Drink horsey, drink.
Yeah, I think I said I agreed it was stupid.
Yeah, I think I said I agreed it was stupid.
So then what was this about?
So then what was this about?
I have no idea, you get mad even when I agree with you on a point.
I agreed that killing the Cuban player deal was stupid but pointed out it wasnt surprising Rubio would be against it.
Why is that bs?
I have no idea, you get mad even when I agree with you on a point.
I agreed that killing the Cuban player deal was stupid but pointed out it wasnt surprising Rubio would be against it.
Why is that bs?
Dude, I’m asking you what your statement “what bs” in your comment was about.
I’m not saying your comment was bs, I’m trying to understand what point you were making upthread, in your comment at 6:57. The one about the Pilgrims.
If you want to just let it be, no worries, I’m sure it’s been a long day for most of us. If you would like to explain, however, I’ll appreciate it.
I’m not trying to stick it to you, I’m trying to understand what you’re on about.
Dude, I’m asking you what your statement “what bs” in your comment was about.
I’m not saying your comment was bs, I’m trying to understand what point you were making upthread, in your comment at 6:57. The one about the Pilgrims.
If you want to just let it be, no worries, I’m sure it’s been a long day for most of us. If you would like to explain, however, I’ll appreciate it.
I’m not trying to stick it to you, I’m trying to understand what you’re on about.
But I can assure you the natives did not want to be “invaded”.
The White Man came to conquer. Not the same. To insinuate that the current so-called ‘invasion’ is similar in any meaningful respect is simply and deeply wrong-any way you look at it.
But I can assure you the natives did not want to be “invaded”.
The White Man came to conquer. Not the same. To insinuate that the current so-called ‘invasion’ is similar in any meaningful respect is simply and deeply wrong-any way you look at it.
My bad. Responding tho thullens Mayflower comparison.
My bad. Responding tho thullens Mayflower comparison.
The white man did not come to conquer, it just became necessary.
The white man did not come to conquer, it just became necessary.
Yes I am.
So basically you are claiming that racist xenophobia just happens to be good politics and it sucks to be you, libs?
My. How refreshing.
And before you get your panties in a knot about “playing the race card” let it be stated that thousands of good white Europeans overstay their via every year and are criminals in exactly the same sense that you unjustifiably use the term for some poor Guatemalan mother and her kids at the southern border.
And Sean Hannity, Lou Dobbs, and Rushbo never say a word about it. Not a fucking one.
Why is that?
Yes I am.
So basically you are claiming that racist xenophobia just happens to be good politics and it sucks to be you, libs?
My. How refreshing.
And before you get your panties in a knot about “playing the race card” let it be stated that thousands of good white Europeans overstay their via every year and are criminals in exactly the same sense that you unjustifiably use the term for some poor Guatemalan mother and her kids at the southern border.
And Sean Hannity, Lou Dobbs, and Rushbo never say a word about it. Not a fucking one.
Why is that?
The white man did not come to conquer, it just became necessary.
On this, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
The white man did not come to conquer, it just became necessary.
On this, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
I actually do object to the thousands of “good” white Europeans overstaying their visas. I’m not sure ICE should care where the Visa overstayer is from, except countries that sponsor terrorism. They might get more attention. I couldnt tell you who Dobbs, Hsnnity and, I suppose Rushbo is Limbaugh, talk about.
On the other hand, I also object to the crackdown on H1-b’s which is entirely counterproductive.
I’m ok with a crackdown on L-1s because large corps just use them for cheap labor they can import and take advantage of. They do take American jobs in the tech world.
I dont think people should be bringing poor Guatemalan mothers to the border with promises of getting into the US. And that’s how they get here, and they pay for it. Those people are assholes.
I actually do object to the thousands of “good” white Europeans overstaying their visas. I’m not sure ICE should care where the Visa overstayer is from, except countries that sponsor terrorism. They might get more attention. I couldnt tell you who Dobbs, Hsnnity and, I suppose Rushbo is Limbaugh, talk about.
On the other hand, I also object to the crackdown on H1-b’s which is entirely counterproductive.
I’m ok with a crackdown on L-1s because large corps just use them for cheap labor they can import and take advantage of. They do take American jobs in the tech world.
I dont think people should be bringing poor Guatemalan mothers to the border with promises of getting into the US. And that’s how they get here, and they pay for it. Those people are assholes.
losing kids.
Impeachable?
It should be punished by public crucifixion.
No, not a metaphor, either.
losing kids.
Impeachable?
It should be punished by public crucifixion.
No, not a metaphor, either.
This maybe needs a thread of its own, but it’s kind of related to this one so I’m tacking it on here. Because it’s getting late-ish, and I’m tired and lazy.
Climate change and immigration.
Here it is, and it’s gonna get worse. Across national boundaries, within national boundaries.
People have to eat. People have to drink water. If there’s no food, they move. If there’s no water, they move. Because they don’t want to die.
There is bugger-all that you can present as an obstacle that trumps “but on the other hand, you die”.
We – not just ObWi “we”, America “we”, and probably the world “we” – need to discuss this. If stuff like this lands in your lap without any understanding of it or plan for dealing with it, things break, and they break at scale.
When things break at scale, all bets are off.
Time to get a plan. Not a wall, because walls do not trump “but on the other hand, you die”. A plan.
Or, things break. At scale.
This maybe needs a thread of its own, but it’s kind of related to this one so I’m tacking it on here. Because it’s getting late-ish, and I’m tired and lazy.
Climate change and immigration.
Here it is, and it’s gonna get worse. Across national boundaries, within national boundaries.
People have to eat. People have to drink water. If there’s no food, they move. If there’s no water, they move. Because they don’t want to die.
There is bugger-all that you can present as an obstacle that trumps “but on the other hand, you die”.
We – not just ObWi “we”, America “we”, and probably the world “we” – need to discuss this. If stuff like this lands in your lap without any understanding of it or plan for dealing with it, things break, and they break at scale.
When things break at scale, all bets are off.
Time to get a plan. Not a wall, because walls do not trump “but on the other hand, you die”. A plan.
Or, things break. At scale.
Those people are assholes.
We have found a point of total agreement.
I’m calling it a night. Peace out.
Those people are assholes.
We have found a point of total agreement.
I’m calling it a night. Peace out.
Losing kids. Should be impeachable.
Besides all else, this is either willful cruelty or almost unfathomable stupidity or an absolute do-not-give-a-shit attitude.
Best guess: all of the above.
Losing kids. Should be impeachable.
Besides all else, this is either willful cruelty or almost unfathomable stupidity or an absolute do-not-give-a-shit attitude.
Best guess: all of the above.
What is this “it became necessary” ?
England legally claimed the territory, which was already inhabited. America was taken by conquest; to deny that is ridiculous.
What is this “it became necessary” ?
England legally claimed the territory, which was already inhabited. America was taken by conquest; to deny that is ridiculous.
The reality of the immigrant ‘invasion’:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/04/09/this-undocumented-worker-her-husband-were-owed-then-their-boss-called-cops-they-say/
The reality of the immigrant ‘invasion’:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/04/09/this-undocumented-worker-her-husband-were-owed-then-their-boss-called-cops-they-say/
Marty – you want a positive message for the Dems? Sticking to immigration for the moment, here it is in one sentence: “The symbol of America should be the Statue of Liberty, not a re-creation of the Berlin Wall.” That’s a paraphrase from Pelosi and Schumer’s response to Trump’s shutdown speech, so it’s already part of the Democratic messaging.
The thing is, expanded immigration of working-age adults and their children is part of the likeliest solution to demographic problems that have been highlighted on both the right and left in past years, both related to the aging of the Boomer generation. From the right, concerns about the decreasing ratio of workers to retirees have led to calls to cut Social Security. From the left, the concern about secular stagnation in the economy from economists such as Paul Krugman and Larry Summers is based on the aging of the population and the experience of Japan with such a population. Immigrant families are part of the solution to these problems, and Trump is pursuing exactly the wrong policies if we want to solve them.
It’s especially stupid for him to be going after long-time residents who are already well-integrated into our society – the Dreamers, the various populations who have been here for decades on long-term deferral, the long-term undocumented people who are living in mixed families of undocumented people and US Citizens. To the degree that he succeeds, he will make us both whiter and poorer as a society, which may satisfy his white nationalist base, but won’t help the rest of us.
The asylum seekers on our southern border can be an opportunity rather than a crisis. Those asylum seekers who have legal representation are overwhelmingly likely to show up on time for all their hearings, even when released on their own recognizance (I believe the percentage is over 98% showing up to all their hearings). So if we worked to hire more immigration judges to reduce the backlogs, and supply applicants with lawyers (and there are already many private charities and lawyers working to do just that), we could release most families into the community and sort out their claims in a timely manner, with no need to separate families or put children in cages.
The choice in 2020 is between embracing a future as a vibrant multi-ethnic society or choosing a dying white nationalism that will turn inwards and eat its own tail. That seems like a pretty damn clear choice.
Marty – you want a positive message for the Dems? Sticking to immigration for the moment, here it is in one sentence: “The symbol of America should be the Statue of Liberty, not a re-creation of the Berlin Wall.” That’s a paraphrase from Pelosi and Schumer’s response to Trump’s shutdown speech, so it’s already part of the Democratic messaging.
The thing is, expanded immigration of working-age adults and their children is part of the likeliest solution to demographic problems that have been highlighted on both the right and left in past years, both related to the aging of the Boomer generation. From the right, concerns about the decreasing ratio of workers to retirees have led to calls to cut Social Security. From the left, the concern about secular stagnation in the economy from economists such as Paul Krugman and Larry Summers is based on the aging of the population and the experience of Japan with such a population. Immigrant families are part of the solution to these problems, and Trump is pursuing exactly the wrong policies if we want to solve them.
It’s especially stupid for him to be going after long-time residents who are already well-integrated into our society – the Dreamers, the various populations who have been here for decades on long-term deferral, the long-term undocumented people who are living in mixed families of undocumented people and US Citizens. To the degree that he succeeds, he will make us both whiter and poorer as a society, which may satisfy his white nationalist base, but won’t help the rest of us.
The asylum seekers on our southern border can be an opportunity rather than a crisis. Those asylum seekers who have legal representation are overwhelmingly likely to show up on time for all their hearings, even when released on their own recognizance (I believe the percentage is over 98% showing up to all their hearings). So if we worked to hire more immigration judges to reduce the backlogs, and supply applicants with lawyers (and there are already many private charities and lawyers working to do just that), we could release most families into the community and sort out their claims in a timely manner, with no need to separate families or put children in cages.
The choice in 2020 is between embracing a future as a vibrant multi-ethnic society or choosing a dying white nationalism that will turn inwards and eat its own tail. That seems like a pretty damn clear choice.
If that were the choice it would be true. But like every country in the western world we apply criteria to being an acceptable immigrant. Less stringent criteria than Canada, for example.
We arent talking about immigration, though that would be nice. We are talking about illegal immigration.
The wall on pur southern border that exists, and that is proposed, bears no moral resemblance to the Berlin wall, so no , Pelosi raising that false comparison is not a positive message. Its typical red meat to her base.
I’ll ignore Schumer, he is imminently useless.
The number that show up were between 60% and 75% by year when released on there own recognizance. (In 2016 it was 61%). At this point that would be tens of thousands added to the illegal immigration population a month.
So I disagree that just opening the border is the solution to our demographic problem.
If that were the choice it would be true. But like every country in the western world we apply criteria to being an acceptable immigrant. Less stringent criteria than Canada, for example.
We arent talking about immigration, though that would be nice. We are talking about illegal immigration.
The wall on pur southern border that exists, and that is proposed, bears no moral resemblance to the Berlin wall, so no , Pelosi raising that false comparison is not a positive message. Its typical red meat to her base.
I’ll ignore Schumer, he is imminently useless.
The number that show up were between 60% and 75% by year when released on there own recognizance. (In 2016 it was 61%). At this point that would be tens of thousands added to the illegal immigration population a month.
So I disagree that just opening the border is the solution to our demographic problem.
No, Schumer is already useless, and eminently so.
I endorse Dave W.’s sensible nostrums. Nowhere did he use the terms “just opening the border”. No one wants unlimited immigration, nor completely open borders, which we have never had anyway.
There is plenty of room for political compromise on this issue. There has been for 25 years.
America has lost its touch in governing itself. Willfully so.
Gotta fly into a winter maelstrom in Denver today. Got stranded by the bomb cyclone a few weeks ago too. Yippee.
No, Schumer is already useless, and eminently so.
I endorse Dave W.’s sensible nostrums. Nowhere did he use the terms “just opening the border”. No one wants unlimited immigration, nor completely open borders, which we have never had anyway.
There is plenty of room for political compromise on this issue. There has been for 25 years.
America has lost its touch in governing itself. Willfully so.
Gotta fly into a winter maelstrom in Denver today. Got stranded by the bomb cyclone a few weeks ago too. Yippee.
Thank you, Dave W.
Marty, I’m sure, since you’ve been here a long time, you realize that immigration laws were created to address Americans’ fear of certain ethnic groups. The Chinese were the first targets in the late 19th century, and then the Eastern Europeans in the 20th. Before those laws, we had open borders. It’s become fashionable to believe that we need to control immigration, and I’m fine with an attempt to do so in a humane and egalitarian manner, respecting the need for asylum seekers to find refuge here.
As to our “demographic problem,” we don’t have one. Right-wingers, such as Paul Ryan, have been concerned about the birth rate declining. I guess he means that there aren’t enough Irish-American babies being born to fill up Wisconsin. Economic studies have indicated that immigrants more than pay their way for social services, and do a lot of the work that native born people don’t want to do.
In any group of people, there will be a percentage of exceptionally good and bad people, and that’s true of immigrants. But crime rates and other statistics indicate that immigrants commit crime at a lower rate than native born people, and that immigration (legal and illegal) is a net positive.
I’ve posted a lot of links to articles here in the past describing the situation of many people coming here from Central America whose lives and children’s lives depend on their escape. Americans who respond to this with Trump-style cruelty are no better than Germans who supported the Nazis. Are they monsters? I can’t think of behavior that better fits the monster brand.
Thank you, Dave W.
Marty, I’m sure, since you’ve been here a long time, you realize that immigration laws were created to address Americans’ fear of certain ethnic groups. The Chinese were the first targets in the late 19th century, and then the Eastern Europeans in the 20th. Before those laws, we had open borders. It’s become fashionable to believe that we need to control immigration, and I’m fine with an attempt to do so in a humane and egalitarian manner, respecting the need for asylum seekers to find refuge here.
As to our “demographic problem,” we don’t have one. Right-wingers, such as Paul Ryan, have been concerned about the birth rate declining. I guess he means that there aren’t enough Irish-American babies being born to fill up Wisconsin. Economic studies have indicated that immigrants more than pay their way for social services, and do a lot of the work that native born people don’t want to do.
In any group of people, there will be a percentage of exceptionally good and bad people, and that’s true of immigrants. But crime rates and other statistics indicate that immigrants commit crime at a lower rate than native born people, and that immigration (legal and illegal) is a net positive.
I’ve posted a lot of links to articles here in the past describing the situation of many people coming here from Central America whose lives and children’s lives depend on their escape. Americans who respond to this with Trump-style cruelty are no better than Germans who supported the Nazis. Are they monsters? I can’t think of behavior that better fits the monster brand.
A quick history of immigration laws from Wikipedia.
A quick history of immigration laws from Wikipedia.
sapient, I didnt bring up a demographic problem, Dave did. I think in reference to the slowing population growth in general.
sapient, I didnt bring up a demographic problem, Dave did. I think in reference to the slowing population growth in general.
Thanks, Marty. I see that I misread the term “demographic problem” which was used by Dave W. to refer to the “problem” Paul Ryan was talking about.
Old people can take care of each other, or languish in diapers and bed sores. Or, they [we] can be grateful for the assistance of younger and stronger people who come to this country for a better life. Or we can force white women to have white children who will then be glad to care for their elders! Hmmmm. Actually explains a lot about Republican policies.
Thanks, Marty. I see that I misread the term “demographic problem” which was used by Dave W. to refer to the “problem” Paul Ryan was talking about.
Old people can take care of each other, or languish in diapers and bed sores. Or, they [we] can be grateful for the assistance of younger and stronger people who come to this country for a better life. Or we can force white women to have white children who will then be glad to care for their elders! Hmmmm. Actually explains a lot about Republican policies.
On the other hand, I also object to the crackdown on H1-b’s which is entirely counterproductive.
This is revealing. It shows that the whole fluff about “illegals” is simply that, fluff to divert the rubes. Honest hard working programmers are welcome. Honest hard working dishwashers are not.
The next time some wingnut admonishes you about “picking winners and losers” tell them to take a hike.
And what Dave said.
On the other hand, I also object to the crackdown on H1-b’s which is entirely counterproductive.
This is revealing. It shows that the whole fluff about “illegals” is simply that, fluff to divert the rubes. Honest hard working programmers are welcome. Honest hard working dishwashers are not.
The next time some wingnut admonishes you about “picking winners and losers” tell them to take a hike.
And what Dave said.
Remember when the refugees from Syria were all going to come here and try to kill us through acts of terror? Remember how it was a liberal lie that there were many women and children and elderly people among them? I guess it’s a theme. This time there’s more emphasis on drugs and rape and plain-old murder, but terrorism still gets thrown in for good measure on occasion when it comes to Central Americans and Mexicans (or Mexican Central Americans, since they’re all Mexican countries down there, anyway). The playbook doesn’t change. Just the players.
Remember when the refugees from Syria were all going to come here and try to kill us through acts of terror? Remember how it was a liberal lie that there were many women and children and elderly people among them? I guess it’s a theme. This time there’s more emphasis on drugs and rape and plain-old murder, but terrorism still gets thrown in for good measure on occasion when it comes to Central Americans and Mexicans (or Mexican Central Americans, since they’re all Mexican countries down there, anyway). The playbook doesn’t change. Just the players.
Though the players always seem to be on the browner side. Coincidence, I guess.
Though the players always seem to be on the browner side. Coincidence, I guess.
I guess my main thought about all of this is that, given all of the possible ways this administration could present our current immigration issues, and all of the policy changes they could seek, and all of the actual policy implementations they could roll out, they consistently choose the most divisive, hateful, and damaging.
They haven’t gotten to simply shooting people as they cross yet, but that and land mines are about the only options they haven’t tried yet.
I guess my main thought about all of this is that, given all of the possible ways this administration could present our current immigration issues, and all of the policy changes they could seek, and all of the actual policy implementations they could roll out, they consistently choose the most divisive, hateful, and damaging.
They haven’t gotten to simply shooting people as they cross yet, but that and land mines are about the only options they haven’t tried yet.
Over here Mayflower jokes should be avoided at all costs because it has become a Neo Nazi meme with the punchline that (North American) Indians would not live in reservations, if they had stopped the illegal immigrants* (starting with Mayflower) in time.
Btw, the Caribbean Indians at least tried (burning down the fort Columbus had left behind and killing everyone in it)
*of a different race than themselves that is
Over here Mayflower jokes should be avoided at all costs because it has become a Neo Nazi meme with the punchline that (North American) Indians would not live in reservations, if they had stopped the illegal immigrants* (starting with Mayflower) in time.
Btw, the Caribbean Indians at least tried (burning down the fort Columbus had left behind and killing everyone in it)
*of a different race than themselves that is
We are talking about illegal immigration.
It appears that, since the focus of the current hysteria is asylum seekers, we are NOT talking about illegal immigration.
They (since it’s generally not those here) are getting their knickers in a twist about people who arrive at the border, walk up to a US official, and exercise their right, under US law. At which point, the administration tries various actions, which are repeatedly found to be illegal under US law, to avoid following the law. And that’s not counting the stuff that got Neilson fired because it was so obviously illegal that even she declined to do it.
We are talking about illegal immigration.
It appears that, since the focus of the current hysteria is asylum seekers, we are NOT talking about illegal immigration.
They (since it’s generally not those here) are getting their knickers in a twist about people who arrive at the border, walk up to a US official, and exercise their right, under US law. At which point, the administration tries various actions, which are repeatedly found to be illegal under US law, to avoid following the law. And that’s not counting the stuff that got Neilson fired because it was so obviously illegal that even she declined to do it.
It’s instructive to check out Guns, Germs, and Steel, for how the outcomes differed for Native Americans, Australian Aboriginals, Maori, and Native Hawai’ians.
Yes, they all had bad outcomes, but some were much worse than others.
OTOH, the inhabitants of North Sentinel Island seems to have figured it out. The Neo-Nazis should go there and have a look first hand.
It’s instructive to check out Guns, Germs, and Steel, for how the outcomes differed for Native Americans, Australian Aboriginals, Maori, and Native Hawai’ians.
Yes, they all had bad outcomes, but some were much worse than others.
OTOH, the inhabitants of North Sentinel Island seems to have figured it out. The Neo-Nazis should go there and have a look first hand.
I just want to return to this for a moment:
I think it remains to be seen what Trump is actually trying to do here, and/or how far he’ll get with any of it. But for the moment, let’s stipulate that this description is accurate.
What can we expect from this “personal defense force”? Rounding up of people critical of Trump? Threats of violence? Actual violence?
And, what response are we supposed to make to it? Strongly worded letters? Masses of people in the street? Pitchforks and torches and Molotov cocktails?
Absent impeachment or a consensus within the cabinet that the POTUS is absolutely incapable of carrying out the responsibilities of office, the Constitution offers no remedy for a bad President during a given term of office.
I’m kind of at a loss as to where to go with this stuff.
What I do want to point out is that this is *exactly* the kind of thing that folks opposed to Trump saw as a possibility, and *exactly* the kind of thing that their counterparties found overly shrill and paranoid.
And, here we are.
I just want to return to this for a moment:
I think it remains to be seen what Trump is actually trying to do here, and/or how far he’ll get with any of it. But for the moment, let’s stipulate that this description is accurate.
What can we expect from this “personal defense force”? Rounding up of people critical of Trump? Threats of violence? Actual violence?
And, what response are we supposed to make to it? Strongly worded letters? Masses of people in the street? Pitchforks and torches and Molotov cocktails?
Absent impeachment or a consensus within the cabinet that the POTUS is absolutely incapable of carrying out the responsibilities of office, the Constitution offers no remedy for a bad President during a given term of office.
I’m kind of at a loss as to where to go with this stuff.
What I do want to point out is that this is *exactly* the kind of thing that folks opposed to Trump saw as a possibility, and *exactly* the kind of thing that their counterparties found overly shrill and paranoid.
And, here we are.
Russell, overly shrill and counterproductive in absence of this activity. If this does continue that direction then Pelosi and McConnell will do what’s necessary. We wont need a civil war to solve that problem. Of course, that’s always been my view, not widely shared.
Russell, overly shrill and counterproductive in absence of this activity. If this does continue that direction then Pelosi and McConnell will do what’s necessary. We wont need a civil war to solve that problem. Of course, that’s always been my view, not widely shared.
So you’re considering the possibility that the legislature will have to take serious action to restrain the sitting president, Marty. Did you ever find it necessary to contemplate such a thing as concerned Obama? Just curious, and sincerely so without snark.
So you’re considering the possibility that the legislature will have to take serious action to restrain the sitting president, Marty. Did you ever find it necessary to contemplate such a thing as concerned Obama? Just curious, and sincerely so without snark.
Russell, overly shrill and counterproductive in absence of this activity.
And yet, here we are.
If this does continue that direction then Pelosi and McConnell will do what’s necessary.
FWIW, I have less than zero confidence in McConnell on that count.
Russell, overly shrill and counterproductive in absence of this activity.
And yet, here we are.
If this does continue that direction then Pelosi and McConnell will do what’s necessary.
FWIW, I have less than zero confidence in McConnell on that count.
Yes, I considered the possibilty. Most of his last two years he pushed the boundaries of his authority, although he never crossed a line where I thought they should.
Trump, by temperament, has always been much more likely to go too far, so I dont consider he and Obama at all equivalent in that sense. I see him taking the liberties Obama took and going well beyond those boundaries
But you might recall I used the term imperial presidency for Obama, as an extension of decades of executive overreach. So I see Trump as a the furthest swing of the pendulum where the dangers are crystallized, hopefully for both sides.
BTW, I am certain Hillary would have pushed those boundaries also.
Yes, I considered the possibilty. Most of his last two years he pushed the boundaries of his authority, although he never crossed a line where I thought they should.
Trump, by temperament, has always been much more likely to go too far, so I dont consider he and Obama at all equivalent in that sense. I see him taking the liberties Obama took and going well beyond those boundaries
But you might recall I used the term imperial presidency for Obama, as an extension of decades of executive overreach. So I see Trump as a the furthest swing of the pendulum where the dangers are crystallized, hopefully for both sides.
BTW, I am certain Hillary would have pushed those boundaries also.
BTW, I am certain Hillary would have pushed those boundaries also.
You mean to the lengths that Trump has? You think that she would have been equivalent in that sense?
BTW, I am certain Hillary would have pushed those boundaries also.
You mean to the lengths that Trump has? You think that she would have been equivalent in that sense?
The difference between Trump and either Clinton or Obama is that either of the latter would recognize the legitimacy of the boundaries. They are people who affirm the legitimacy of our institutions and process.
Trump is essentially lawless. If he can find a way to burn down anything that stands between himself and whatever the hell it is he is trying to achieve, he will gladly light the fire.
And that is why Trump is not the same as Obama or any Clinton you care to name. It’s why he’s not the same as either Bush.
He respects nothing and values nothing outside of outside of his own personal, selfish interests. That is who he is, has been, and will be.
The difference between Trump and either Clinton or Obama is that either of the latter would recognize the legitimacy of the boundaries. They are people who affirm the legitimacy of our institutions and process.
Trump is essentially lawless. If he can find a way to burn down anything that stands between himself and whatever the hell it is he is trying to achieve, he will gladly light the fire.
And that is why Trump is not the same as Obama or any Clinton you care to name. It’s why he’s not the same as either Bush.
He respects nothing and values nothing outside of outside of his own personal, selfish interests. That is who he is, has been, and will be.
Thanks, wj, for your 12:28.
Thanks, wj, for your 12:28.
sapient, I just find it hard to have a constructive conversation when the subject shifts back and forth all the time. And multiple issues (some valid and some not) get conflated in to a chaotic mish-mash. Just limited intellect on my part, I suppose….
sapient, I just find it hard to have a constructive conversation when the subject shifts back and forth all the time. And multiple issues (some valid and some not) get conflated in to a chaotic mish-mash. Just limited intellect on my part, I suppose….
And multiple issues (some valid and some not) get conflated in to a chaotic mish-mash
Well, thanks for keeping a mantra of truth in focus: seeking asylum is not illegal.
And multiple issues (some valid and some not) get conflated in to a chaotic mish-mash
Well, thanks for keeping a mantra of truth in focus: seeking asylum is not illegal.
wj, they arent doing that. They are trying to enter illegally and have been told if they are caught to ask for asylum. But, even if they just enter the country at some random point west of Douglas and stand there waiting for someone to show up, they have still entered illegally. Asking for asylum at that point does not suddenly make it legal.
wj, they arent doing that. They are trying to enter illegally and have been told if they are caught to ask for asylum. But, even if they just enter the country at some random point west of Douglas and stand there waiting for someone to show up, they have still entered illegally. Asking for asylum at that point does not suddenly make it legal.
Hillary Clinton blatantly broke the law multiple ways as Secretary of State. She has no more respect for those boundaries than Trump.
Someone tell me shes not a crook because she wasn’t charged, I dare you.
Hillary Clinton blatantly broke the law multiple ways as Secretary of State. She has no more respect for those boundaries than Trump.
Someone tell me shes not a crook because she wasn’t charged, I dare you.
Hillary Clinton blatantly broke the law multiple ways as Secretary of State.
How and when? Seriously, I don’t know what you’re referring to. I’m curious to get specifics, because I’d want to put whatever transgressions you say occurred in perspective for myself.
Hillary Clinton blatantly broke the law multiple ways as Secretary of State.
How and when? Seriously, I don’t know what you’re referring to. I’m curious to get specifics, because I’d want to put whatever transgressions you say occurred in perspective for myself.
They are trying to enter illegally and have been told if they are caught to ask for asylum.
Who is “they,” and how do you know this?
They are trying to enter illegally and have been told if they are caught to ask for asylum.
Who is “they,” and how do you know this?
For someone who disapproves of Trump, Marty seems strangely attached to his talking points.
For someone who disapproves of Trump, Marty seems strangely attached to his talking points.
hsh, her email server was a breach of federal rules on handling mail(at a minimum), deleting emails on it to prevent them from being found was destroying evidence, a crime. Just one, but certainly demonstrative of her lack of respect for the rule of law.
I dont even care what emails were there, they were the property of the federal government sent and received outside the specific rules laid out to ensure they were captured and backed up to make them availabe.
hsh, her email server was a breach of federal rules on handling mail(at a minimum), deleting emails on it to prevent them from being found was destroying evidence, a crime. Just one, but certainly demonstrative of her lack of respect for the rule of law.
I dont even care what emails were there, they were the property of the federal government sent and received outside the specific rules laid out to ensure they were captured and backed up to make them availabe.
Somehow I was expecting something other than the email thing. Okay.
Somehow I was expecting something other than the email thing. Okay.
wj, they arent doing that. They are trying to enter illegally and have been told if they are caught to ask for asylum.
Some few may well be doing this. But the ones that Trump keeps ranting about are walking up to border posts and instantly asking for asylum. No attempt to enter illegally. No attempt to avoid the US authorities.
You can try to argue that their applications for asylum should be rejected. For whatever reasons. But not that they try to sneak in. Those doing that arrive on valid visas, and then overstay.
wj, they arent doing that. They are trying to enter illegally and have been told if they are caught to ask for asylum.
Some few may well be doing this. But the ones that Trump keeps ranting about are walking up to border posts and instantly asking for asylum. No attempt to enter illegally. No attempt to avoid the US authorities.
You can try to argue that their applications for asylum should be rejected. For whatever reasons. But not that they try to sneak in. Those doing that arrive on valid visas, and then overstay.
The email thing is not trivial. It has just been treated that way. If i deleted electronic records that had been subpoenaed I would go to jail.
The email thing is not trivial. It has just been treated that way. If i deleted electronic records that had been subpoenaed I would go to jail.
Trivial or not, I thought you were referring to something else, which I might not have heard about. And it’s been thoroughly investigated and reviewed, not necessarily by people friendly to Clinton. It’s also kind of a technical thing. I don’t infer the Trump-like attitude of lawlessness from it that you do. There’s probably not much more to say about it.
Trivial or not, I thought you were referring to something else, which I might not have heard about. And it’s been thoroughly investigated and reviewed, not necessarily by people friendly to Clinton. It’s also kind of a technical thing. I don’t infer the Trump-like attitude of lawlessness from it that you do. There’s probably not much more to say about it.
Marty,
And yet Jared and Ivanka have used private emails for government business, and Trump has used an unsecured cell phone.
Should they be jailed, do you think?
And Trump’s crookedness extends far beyond his time as President. His business career was an exercise in dishonesty.
Marty,
And yet Jared and Ivanka have used private emails for government business, and Trump has used an unsecured cell phone.
Should they be jailed, do you think?
And Trump’s crookedness extends far beyond his time as President. His business career was an exercise in dishonesty.
There is a difference in occasionally sending off an email through your gmail account and purposefully setting up your own server to control all access to it.
The emailing isn’t the issue. Preventing your emails from being available to your employer, me, and having the ability to delete them and then actually deleting them is both unethical and criminal.
His career prior to being President is not relevant at this point. It probably will be in January 2021.
That said, if any of those people regularly do government business on their personal email that’s an issue.
There is a difference in occasionally sending off an email through your gmail account and purposefully setting up your own server to control all access to it.
The emailing isn’t the issue. Preventing your emails from being available to your employer, me, and having the ability to delete them and then actually deleting them is both unethical and criminal.
His career prior to being President is not relevant at this point. It probably will be in January 2021.
That said, if any of those people regularly do government business on their personal email that’s an issue.
That said, if any of those people regularly do government business on their personal email that’s an issue.
Oh.
That said, if any of those people regularly do government business on their personal email that’s an issue.
Oh.
He can steal whatever he likes:
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2019/04/the-emoluments-clause-will-only-apply.html
Personally, I hope p’s criminal putsch prosecutes and jails Hillary. If not execute her.
We need a Fort Sumter event, a Pearl Harbor-like catastrophe to deal savagely with America’s millions of internal enemies.
He can steal whatever he likes:
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2019/04/the-emoluments-clause-will-only-apply.html
Personally, I hope p’s criminal putsch prosecutes and jails Hillary. If not execute her.
We need a Fort Sumter event, a Pearl Harbor-like catastrophe to deal savagely with America’s millions of internal enemies.
“He asserted that because Mr. Kushner took screenshots of the communications and sent them to his official White House account or the National Security Council, his client was not in violation of federal records laws.”
I’m not sure how I feel about WhatsApp itself, it’s more texting than email, but they do clearly know they are supposed to preserve the record.
“He asserted that because Mr. Kushner took screenshots of the communications and sent them to his official White House account or the National Security Council, his client was not in violation of federal records laws.”
I’m not sure how I feel about WhatsApp itself, it’s more texting than email, but they do clearly know they are supposed to preserve the record.
Somehow I was expecting something other than the email thing.
LOL….that’s just about all they got, and it is a nothingburger. Beyond that, what? Benghazi? Clinton Foundation?
All BS.
..but they do clearly know they are supposed to preserve the record.
LOL. So he, just like Clinton gets to pick which ones he “forwards” and which ones we mysteriously don’t get to see. Just on his say so?
You are too credulous for words.
Somehow I was expecting something other than the email thing.
LOL….that’s just about all they got, and it is a nothingburger. Beyond that, what? Benghazi? Clinton Foundation?
All BS.
..but they do clearly know they are supposed to preserve the record.
LOL. So he, just like Clinton gets to pick which ones he “forwards” and which ones we mysteriously don’t get to see. Just on his say so?
You are too credulous for words.
No , that was an indictment not approval.
No , that was an indictment not approval.
Foreign governments are openly currying favour with Trump by using his hotels. How can this be happening in a once civilised country?
But six years ago Hillary Clinton had an email server she shouldn’t have. So let’s concentrate on that.
Foreign governments are openly currying favour with Trump by using his hotels. How can this be happening in a once civilised country?
But six years ago Hillary Clinton had an email server she shouldn’t have. So let’s concentrate on that.
Let’s not, but I don’t really give a crap what hotel a foreign dignitary sleeps in. Do you really care about that?
Let’s not, but I don’t really give a crap what hotel a foreign dignitary sleeps in. Do you really care about that?
It’s called self-dealing, Marty.
It’s called self-dealing, Marty.
Yes, I really do care that the president of the world’s most powerful country should not make foreign policy on the basis of how much money each foreign government spends in his hotels. Do you not?
Yes, I really do care that the president of the world’s most powerful country should not make foreign policy on the basis of how much money each foreign government spends in his hotels. Do you not?
Clinton was using an email server that she owned and operated, where for “operated” read hired somebody to run for her. At some point the feds wanted the official stuff off of it, so she had staffers weed through it all and segregate out the official business vs the personal stuff. The official business stuff went to the feds, and she asked the folks who ran her server to put the personal stuff on a delete-after-60-days policy.
They neglected to do that.
When the “Clinton’s email” stuff heated up, they said uh oh, we forgot to delete the personal stuff, and deleted it.
The physical systems that were used to back that stuff up were provided to the feds by Datto, the company she used as her backup service.
That’s the email controversy.
John Kerry was apparently the first Sec State to exclusively use a .gov server for state business. His tenure followed Clinton’s.
It was bloody stupid for Clinton to run State business from a server physically located in her home. She doesn’t have the technical chops to know whether the system was secure or not, let alone know how to make it so. It was stupid to co-mingle personal documents and official work product.
Her attitude through the whole business could fairly be characterized as dismissive, which was and is highly inappropriate.
She deserved to be called out on it, and she was.
The fact that you obsess about this bullshit while finding lame-ass excuses for worse behavior on the part of Trump and his family is simply ridiculous.
“Yeah, but that’s different!”. Yes, it’s different. It’s worse, as was the Bush administrations use of private email servers to run official WH business during W’s tenure. When something like 2 million emails of interest were “lost”.
Oopsie!
This is why I generally refuse to engage with Trumpies. And I know you consider yourself Not A Trumpie, but you are indistinguishable from one on any topic touching on Trump, his family, and any recent (D) administration.
You’re a party line guy, Marty. Completely. Just saying.
Clinton was using an email server that she owned and operated, where for “operated” read hired somebody to run for her. At some point the feds wanted the official stuff off of it, so she had staffers weed through it all and segregate out the official business vs the personal stuff. The official business stuff went to the feds, and she asked the folks who ran her server to put the personal stuff on a delete-after-60-days policy.
They neglected to do that.
When the “Clinton’s email” stuff heated up, they said uh oh, we forgot to delete the personal stuff, and deleted it.
The physical systems that were used to back that stuff up were provided to the feds by Datto, the company she used as her backup service.
That’s the email controversy.
John Kerry was apparently the first Sec State to exclusively use a .gov server for state business. His tenure followed Clinton’s.
It was bloody stupid for Clinton to run State business from a server physically located in her home. She doesn’t have the technical chops to know whether the system was secure or not, let alone know how to make it so. It was stupid to co-mingle personal documents and official work product.
Her attitude through the whole business could fairly be characterized as dismissive, which was and is highly inappropriate.
She deserved to be called out on it, and she was.
The fact that you obsess about this bullshit while finding lame-ass excuses for worse behavior on the part of Trump and his family is simply ridiculous.
“Yeah, but that’s different!”. Yes, it’s different. It’s worse, as was the Bush administrations use of private email servers to run official WH business during W’s tenure. When something like 2 million emails of interest were “lost”.
Oopsie!
This is why I generally refuse to engage with Trumpies. And I know you consider yourself Not A Trumpie, but you are indistinguishable from one on any topic touching on Trump, his family, and any recent (D) administration.
You’re a party line guy, Marty. Completely. Just saying.
C’mon, Pro Bono. You know that Javanka has to go to Saudi Arabia to get their cash.
The corruption, malfeasance, cruelty and criminal behavior is overwhelming. Sadly, Marty is only one sad example of their defenders. Trump seems to have no shortage of lackeys who are going to do everything possible to keep the grift going for as long as possible. And it looks like that may be quite a long time.
C’mon, Pro Bono. You know that Javanka has to go to Saudi Arabia to get their cash.
The corruption, malfeasance, cruelty and criminal behavior is overwhelming. Sadly, Marty is only one sad example of their defenders. Trump seems to have no shortage of lackeys who are going to do everything possible to keep the grift going for as long as possible. And it looks like that may be quite a long time.
His stuff is nearly indistinguishable from the Eastern European and Russian hack bots that help steal the election for p and the republican party.
Almost word for word on Clinton.
I believe the Kremlin and the Republican Party targeted every left of center blog with dedicated trolls.
His stuff is nearly indistinguishable from the Eastern European and Russian hack bots that help steal the election for p and the republican party.
Almost word for word on Clinton.
I believe the Kremlin and the Republican Party targeted every left of center blog with dedicated trolls.
Always attack when Hillary is called out.
That’s CDS. You left out all the regs and laws she broke. Just an oopsie by her IT guys.
I’m no party line guy, that’s just a knee jerk insult.
So now I’ll go away for a little while more, just look in.
Always attack when Hillary is called out.
That’s CDS. You left out all the regs and laws she broke. Just an oopsie by her IT guys.
I’m no party line guy, that’s just a knee jerk insult.
So now I’ll go away for a little while more, just look in.
This synopsis seems pretty fair, to me.
I’m no party line guy, that’s just a knee jerk insult.
Yes, knee jerk insults are my metier.
This synopsis seems pretty fair, to me.
I’m no party line guy, that’s just a knee jerk insult.
Yes, knee jerk insults are my metier.
I believe the Kremlin and the Republican Party targeted every left of center blog with dedicated trolls.
I find this persuasive.
I believe the Kremlin and the Republican Party targeted every left of center blog with dedicated trolls.
I find this persuasive.
You left out all the regs and laws she broke.
An analysis of the relevant laws and whether Clinton broke them.
When the feds searched the contents of Clinton’s personal server, they found about 100 classified emails. My understanding is that it was in fact illegal for, specifically, classified material to be stored there.
Charges weren’t brought because actually making that case would have required demonstrating some level of intent on Clinton’s part to deliberately mishandle the material. That was not in evidence.
If you look through this thread, you will see Marty bringing assertion and innuendo. That, and you will see him wave away concerns that folks raise about Trump with comments like ‘do you really care about that?” And you will see myself and others citing specific facts – things that anyone can research and discover and evaluate for their truthfulness.
It’s easy to repeat rumor and innuendo, and to dismiss other’s questions or comments. It takes a certain level of effort to actually do your homework and test your point of view.
I don’t have time to waste on lazy people. And that’s why I don’t talk to Trumpies. They have a ready-made point of view, it makes them feel good, they aren’t interested in examining what they think or why they think it. Why waste your breath?
That’s kind of where I started on this thread, and everyone wanted to know why I felt that way. How will we persuade them, unless we engage?
Well, QED.
Asked and answered.
You left out all the regs and laws she broke.
An analysis of the relevant laws and whether Clinton broke them.
When the feds searched the contents of Clinton’s personal server, they found about 100 classified emails. My understanding is that it was in fact illegal for, specifically, classified material to be stored there.
Charges weren’t brought because actually making that case would have required demonstrating some level of intent on Clinton’s part to deliberately mishandle the material. That was not in evidence.
If you look through this thread, you will see Marty bringing assertion and innuendo. That, and you will see him wave away concerns that folks raise about Trump with comments like ‘do you really care about that?” And you will see myself and others citing specific facts – things that anyone can research and discover and evaluate for their truthfulness.
It’s easy to repeat rumor and innuendo, and to dismiss other’s questions or comments. It takes a certain level of effort to actually do your homework and test your point of view.
I don’t have time to waste on lazy people. And that’s why I don’t talk to Trumpies. They have a ready-made point of view, it makes them feel good, they aren’t interested in examining what they think or why they think it. Why waste your breath?
That’s kind of where I started on this thread, and everyone wanted to know why I felt that way. How will we persuade them, unless we engage?
Well, QED.
Asked and answered.
Just to be clear, the summary you posted confirmed every assertion I made. The facts are well documented. I will add. it also confirms she lied under oath to Congress.
The hotel thing has no factual basis at all, it’s just your pet peeve.
Just to be clear, the summary you posted confirmed every assertion I made. The facts are well documented. I will add. it also confirms she lied under oath to Congress.
The hotel thing has no factual basis at all, it’s just your pet peeve.
You left out all the regs and laws she broke.
Please forgive me if I missed something. But I have the distinct impression that, when asked for specifics on her lawlessness, the email server was the one (and only) specific that you offered. From this latest comment, it appears that you have others as well. Care to share?
You left out all the regs and laws she broke.
Please forgive me if I missed something. But I have the distinct impression that, when asked for specifics on her lawlessness, the email server was the one (and only) specific that you offered. From this latest comment, it appears that you have others as well. Care to share?
The hotel thing has no factual basis at all, it’s just your pet peeve.
Here‘s some “no factual basis” for you.
The hotel thing has no factual basis at all, it’s just your pet peeve.
Here‘s some “no factual basis” for you.
The issue is being litigated, I’m happy to let the courts decide. I dont believe the occupancy rate at one hotel is driving the foreign policy decisions of the administration.
If the court finds the emoluments clause applies I’m fine with whatever remedy they impose. We have a whole system that decides things like this.
But those two questions are separate. Whether the clause applies is separate from whether there is actual benefit being gained. The first is being litigated, there is no factual support for the second.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna984586
The issue is being litigated, I’m happy to let the courts decide. I dont believe the occupancy rate at one hotel is driving the foreign policy decisions of the administration.
If the court finds the emoluments clause applies I’m fine with whatever remedy they impose. We have a whole system that decides things like this.
But those two questions are separate. Whether the clause applies is separate from whether there is actual benefit being gained. The first is being litigated, there is no factual support for the second.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna984586
I dont believe the occupancy rate at one hotel is driving the foreign policy decisions of the administration.
I do believe it. It’s why self-dealing has not allowed for people in a position of trust. I hope the emoluments litigation is effective to stop this aspect of Trump’s corruption, but unfortunately, as indicated in the article Marty cites: “All three judges on the panel were nominated to the 4th Circuit by Republican presidents: Niemeyer, by George H.W. Bush; Shedd, by George W. Bush, and Judge A. Marvin Quattlebaum, by Trump.” This is why McConnell has been so relentless. I’m trying to keep the faith, but it’s getting harder every day.
I dont believe the occupancy rate at one hotel is driving the foreign policy decisions of the administration.
I do believe it. It’s why self-dealing has not allowed for people in a position of trust. I hope the emoluments litigation is effective to stop this aspect of Trump’s corruption, but unfortunately, as indicated in the article Marty cites: “All three judges on the panel were nominated to the 4th Circuit by Republican presidents: Niemeyer, by George H.W. Bush; Shedd, by George W. Bush, and Judge A. Marvin Quattlebaum, by Trump.” This is why McConnell has been so relentless. I’m trying to keep the faith, but it’s getting harder every day.
Look, here is your claim:
deleting emails on it to prevent them from being found was destroying evidence, a crime. Just one, but certainly demonstrative of her lack of respect for the rule of law.
I dont even care what emails were there, they were the property of the federal government sent and received outside the specific rules laid out to ensure they were captured and backed up to make them availabe.
The one and only thing in anything I’ve cited that actually falls foul of the law is the presence of classified material on her email server. The feds found that it was not an offense worth prosecuting.
She made her Dept of State work product available. The backups of her server were made available. All of that has ‘been captured’.
So, I don’t fncking get what you’re talking about.
The hotel, FWIW, doesn’t even scratch the surface of the self-dealing of the Trump administration. He shouldn’t even be holding the lease on the property at this point, it’s a federally owned building and one of the conditions of the lease is that no public official can hold it.
But who gives a shit. Certainly not you.
I started hanging out on political blogs probably in ’01, when the Patriot Act stuff started up. I have spent, easily, many thousands of hours, engaging in conversation with people, looking through the text of legislation and the US Code, reading as much as I can find on a pretty wide variety of issues. Whatever the issues of importance seemed to be, at various times.
What I take away from all of that is this: people think what they want to think, and it rarely has much to do with the plain facts of the matter.
The process of persuading people about anything has almost nothing to do with facts. It has to do with slowly, gradually, inch by inch, developing some kind of relationship of trust with them, so that they will actually be open to considering what you say, instead of dismissing it out of hand because you’re “not on their side”.
I have at various points developed that kind of relationship with people whose point of view is dramatically different from mine. Dramatically.
What I achieved, full stop, by doing that was getting a recognition that I wasn’t the freaking cartoon liberal of their imagination.
I made zero – absolutely zero – dent in the substance of their beliefs. None. After, in many cases, years of almost daily conversation.
Nobody is going to persuade anybody of anything on a blog, or a FB post, or any form of social media whatsoever.
Donald Trump is, plainly, a corrupt self-dealing criminal bigot. Members of his administration, plainly, engaged in contacts with Russian nationals, repeatedly, about the 2016 election. We have the email record of the conversation between Jr and Goldstone which led to the Trump Tower meeting. We know Manafort delivered (R) polling data to Kilimnik. We know Stone had contact with Assange, the source of the email disclosures.
Nothing to see here, folks.
So basically at this point, I conclude that the government of the United States is profoundly, deeply, thoroughly broken. I don’t know if it can be repaired. It sure as hell is not going to be repaired when 40% of country thinks the situation at hand is perfectly fine and requires no remedy, in fact give us more of this winning!
So basically, I got nothing. Not a fucking thing.
I’m not interested in talking with Trumpies because it has exactly the same value as beating your head against a brick wall. I’d rather poke myself in the eye with a sharp stick.
I appreciate Marty hanging out here because I think he’s basically an OK guy, but I just don’t see a lot of daylight between him and your average Trumpie. At least as far as the substance of what he says, his general demeanor is much less fanatical. But as regards substance, i don’t see any difference.
If that offends you, Marty, I’m not sure what to say about it. All I know about you is what you write here. My opinion is based on what you write here.
It’s fun to hang out and shoot the breeze, but this country is fncking broken, and it’s gonna take more than a candid but polite exchange of viewpoints to turn it around.
I’m out of bright ideas.
Look, here is your claim:
deleting emails on it to prevent them from being found was destroying evidence, a crime. Just one, but certainly demonstrative of her lack of respect for the rule of law.
I dont even care what emails were there, they were the property of the federal government sent and received outside the specific rules laid out to ensure they were captured and backed up to make them availabe.
The one and only thing in anything I’ve cited that actually falls foul of the law is the presence of classified material on her email server. The feds found that it was not an offense worth prosecuting.
She made her Dept of State work product available. The backups of her server were made available. All of that has ‘been captured’.
So, I don’t fncking get what you’re talking about.
The hotel, FWIW, doesn’t even scratch the surface of the self-dealing of the Trump administration. He shouldn’t even be holding the lease on the property at this point, it’s a federally owned building and one of the conditions of the lease is that no public official can hold it.
But who gives a shit. Certainly not you.
I started hanging out on political blogs probably in ’01, when the Patriot Act stuff started up. I have spent, easily, many thousands of hours, engaging in conversation with people, looking through the text of legislation and the US Code, reading as much as I can find on a pretty wide variety of issues. Whatever the issues of importance seemed to be, at various times.
What I take away from all of that is this: people think what they want to think, and it rarely has much to do with the plain facts of the matter.
The process of persuading people about anything has almost nothing to do with facts. It has to do with slowly, gradually, inch by inch, developing some kind of relationship of trust with them, so that they will actually be open to considering what you say, instead of dismissing it out of hand because you’re “not on their side”.
I have at various points developed that kind of relationship with people whose point of view is dramatically different from mine. Dramatically.
What I achieved, full stop, by doing that was getting a recognition that I wasn’t the freaking cartoon liberal of their imagination.
I made zero – absolutely zero – dent in the substance of their beliefs. None. After, in many cases, years of almost daily conversation.
Nobody is going to persuade anybody of anything on a blog, or a FB post, or any form of social media whatsoever.
Donald Trump is, plainly, a corrupt self-dealing criminal bigot. Members of his administration, plainly, engaged in contacts with Russian nationals, repeatedly, about the 2016 election. We have the email record of the conversation between Jr and Goldstone which led to the Trump Tower meeting. We know Manafort delivered (R) polling data to Kilimnik. We know Stone had contact with Assange, the source of the email disclosures.
Nothing to see here, folks.
So basically at this point, I conclude that the government of the United States is profoundly, deeply, thoroughly broken. I don’t know if it can be repaired. It sure as hell is not going to be repaired when 40% of country thinks the situation at hand is perfectly fine and requires no remedy, in fact give us more of this winning!
So basically, I got nothing. Not a fucking thing.
I’m not interested in talking with Trumpies because it has exactly the same value as beating your head against a brick wall. I’d rather poke myself in the eye with a sharp stick.
I appreciate Marty hanging out here because I think he’s basically an OK guy, but I just don’t see a lot of daylight between him and your average Trumpie. At least as far as the substance of what he says, his general demeanor is much less fanatical. But as regards substance, i don’t see any difference.
If that offends you, Marty, I’m not sure what to say about it. All I know about you is what you write here. My opinion is based on what you write here.
It’s fun to hang out and shoot the breeze, but this country is fncking broken, and it’s gonna take more than a candid but polite exchange of viewpoints to turn it around.
I’m out of bright ideas.
whether there is actual benefit being gained
The membership fee for Mar e Lago went from $100K to $200K. On January 1, 2019.
: shruggie :
Fuck it, I’m done.
whether there is actual benefit being gained
The membership fee for Mar e Lago went from $100K to $200K. On January 1, 2019.
: shruggie :
Fuck it, I’m done.
See Russell, after all the years you’ve been doing this I find it incredible that I need to spend this timeline to your summary. So we just take her word that the emails deleted and professionally scrubbed after the subpoena was issued was an issue by the IT guy.
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/oct/09/donald-trump/donald-trump-says-hillary-clinton-deleted-33000-em/
See Russell, after all the years you’ve been doing this I find it incredible that I need to spend this timeline to your summary. So we just take her word that the emails deleted and professionally scrubbed after the subpoena was issued was an issue by the IT guy.
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/oct/09/donald-trump/donald-trump-says-hillary-clinton-deleted-33000-em/
Spend = append, an oopsie by the IT guy.
to bed.
Spend = append, an oopsie by the IT guy.
to bed.
No, I don’t just take her word. I assume that if the feds spent years looking at and the army of flying monkeys who have been sniffing her freaking panties for the last 25 years didn’t find it, it’s probably not there.
I’m not a fan of Clinton, particularly, and I’m not invested in defending her about this. If you want to claim she broke the law, fine with me. Show your work.
“Yeah, I know the record says x y and z, but that’s all lies” is not showing your work.
Clinton is now a private citizen. This is no longer even relevant, to anything. It’s just crap people trot out when anyone criticizes Trump.
No, I don’t just take her word. I assume that if the feds spent years looking at and the army of flying monkeys who have been sniffing her freaking panties for the last 25 years didn’t find it, it’s probably not there.
I’m not a fan of Clinton, particularly, and I’m not invested in defending her about this. If you want to claim she broke the law, fine with me. Show your work.
“Yeah, I know the record says x y and z, but that’s all lies” is not showing your work.
Clinton is now a private citizen. This is no longer even relevant, to anything. It’s just crap people trot out when anyone criticizes Trump.
In other Trump family corruption news, Trump’s sister has resigned so that her role in the family fraud machine can’t be scrutinized. (However, she retains her 6 figure retirement income.)
Not a problem for Trumpies. What a country.
In other Trump family corruption news, Trump’s sister has resigned so that her role in the family fraud machine can’t be scrutinized. (However, she retains her 6 figure retirement income.)
Not a problem for Trumpies. What a country.
I was hoping to find a bit of daylight between Marty’s views of Trump and Obama, at least ethically speaking. Then between Marty’s views of Trump and Clinton after Marty brought her up – policy aside, of course.
Whatever. F**k it. Different realities.
I was hoping to find a bit of daylight between Marty’s views of Trump and Obama, at least ethically speaking. Then between Marty’s views of Trump and Clinton after Marty brought her up – policy aside, of course.
Whatever. F**k it. Different realities.
Clinton didn’t commit a crime. I try to convince myself that Republicans are not irredeemably awful people in so far as their participation in politics0. but really what excuse is there for those who insist against all reason that she is the big time criminal and Trump isn’t? Name any dictator or authoritarian regime that abused people and you will find supporters with exactly that mentality: The Dear Leader is above the law and all rivals and critics are guilty. OF what doesn’t matter, because the real crime is challenging the Dear Leader. People who think that way–and it is very typical of the R base–do not like the rule of law or like representative government. They want rule by their Dear Leader and they want everyone elses to be marginalized.
Clinton didn’t commit a crime. I try to convince myself that Republicans are not irredeemably awful people in so far as their participation in politics0. but really what excuse is there for those who insist against all reason that she is the big time criminal and Trump isn’t? Name any dictator or authoritarian regime that abused people and you will find supporters with exactly that mentality: The Dear Leader is above the law and all rivals and critics are guilty. OF what doesn’t matter, because the real crime is challenging the Dear Leader. People who think that way–and it is very typical of the R base–do not like the rule of law or like representative government. They want rule by their Dear Leader and they want everyone elses to be marginalized.
This story serves as a perfect expression of Trump’s debased character:
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/04/10/trump-mount-vernon-george-washington-226619
Tax cuts, or the continued functioning of US democracy ?
The choice is yours next year.
This story serves as a perfect expression of Trump’s debased character:
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/04/10/trump-mount-vernon-george-washington-226619
Tax cuts, or the continued functioning of US democracy ?
The choice is yours next year.
The Trumps are certainly gaining financial benefit. I believe, FWIW, but I may be wrong, that Marty meant whether any benefit is being gained in return by those paying. Clearly, that is besides the point: accepting bribes, whether you deliver on them with specific actions or not, can not be tolerated in a head of state.
The Trumps are certainly gaining financial benefit. I believe, FWIW, but I may be wrong, that Marty meant whether any benefit is being gained in return by those paying. Clearly, that is besides the point: accepting bribes, whether you deliver on them with specific actions or not, can not be tolerated in a head of state.
hsh, I think I specifically expressed a difference in my view of Trump and Obama above. I find the Trumpies view of him and the Clintonites view of her pretty close to the same level of unreality, and I see very little difference in their ethics.
I find the story in Nigel’s 4:27 illustrative and accurate. Although self promotion is a skill all Presidential candidates share these days. Not to mention we seem to have decided generals arent good Presidential material. So men of Washingtons temperament could not get elected today.
I’m pretty sure the US democracy continues to function though.
hsh, I think I specifically expressed a difference in my view of Trump and Obama above. I find the Trumpies view of him and the Clintonites view of her pretty close to the same level of unreality, and I see very little difference in their ethics.
I find the story in Nigel’s 4:27 illustrative and accurate. Although self promotion is a skill all Presidential candidates share these days. Not to mention we seem to have decided generals arent good Presidential material. So men of Washingtons temperament could not get elected today.
I’m pretty sure the US democracy continues to function though.
GftNC,
Yes, accepting bribes is completely unacceptable. But it’s not a bribe if they pay for a hotel room and stay in it. It may be sucking up to the President but there is nothing new about that.
GftNC,
Yes, accepting bribes is completely unacceptable. But it’s not a bribe if they pay for a hotel room and stay in it. It may be sucking up to the President but there is nothing new about that.
Not a Clintonite, which sounds like an explosive, but if Bill and Hillary had been renting out a luxury cot next to the domestic server to diplomats from China, Saudi Arabia, you name it, I expect we’d be hearing more than a gigantic sucking sound from the usual suspects.
Not a Clintonite, which sounds like an explosive, but if Bill and Hillary had been renting out a luxury cot next to the domestic server to diplomats from China, Saudi Arabia, you name it, I expect we’d be hearing more than a gigantic sucking sound from the usual suspects.
Please.
The foreign nationals, many from cultures in which bribery is merely a cost of doing business, paying for the p hotel rooms believe they are engaging in bribery and influence peddling, just as the big money donors, many anonymous believe Citizens United is the promised land of political bribery.
Please.
The foreign nationals, many from cultures in which bribery is merely a cost of doing business, paying for the p hotel rooms believe they are engaging in bribery and influence peddling, just as the big money donors, many anonymous believe Citizens United is the promised land of political bribery.
And, by the way, p’s business history is rife with his receipt of questionable money from questionable sources via questionable channels, and paying out the same, and then reneging on whatever quid pro quo was, choke, promised.
Yes, the money is on the bedside table untouched when the transaction commences but after the girl swallows, the payment mysteriously disappears and she is hustled out the back door on to the loading dock.
To believe otherwise is an exercise in cheap American rube sentimentality regarding motive and methods.
And, by the way, p’s business history is rife with his receipt of questionable money from questionable sources via questionable channels, and paying out the same, and then reneging on whatever quid pro quo was, choke, promised.
Yes, the money is on the bedside table untouched when the transaction commences but after the girl swallows, the payment mysteriously disappears and she is hustled out the back door on to the loading dock.
To believe otherwise is an exercise in cheap American rube sentimentality regarding motive and methods.
Yes, I have to agree with John Thullen here, Marty. That is why there is an emoluments clause, and why most respectable organisations have rules against “presents” being given to the people in authority, or ways being found to funnel money to them by use of their facilities. A bribe is not just a payment for a specific outcome, it is also (in the payer’s mind, for good reason) a way of greasing the wheels so that they and their interests will be given favourable consideration and treatment in any future situations. We know from many previous discussions that there are those among us who object to ex-Presidents earning vast sums of money as a result of their status, presumably partly because of the suspicion that they gave favourable treatment in advance when in power, and unfortunately there are established ways people can pay for access to politicians, but that sitting presidents should benefit financially from their status while in office immediately puts the country in a category it has never approached before, call that category what you will: banana republic? kleptocracy? In any case, no club you would ever want to join…..
Yes, I have to agree with John Thullen here, Marty. That is why there is an emoluments clause, and why most respectable organisations have rules against “presents” being given to the people in authority, or ways being found to funnel money to them by use of their facilities. A bribe is not just a payment for a specific outcome, it is also (in the payer’s mind, for good reason) a way of greasing the wheels so that they and their interests will be given favourable consideration and treatment in any future situations. We know from many previous discussions that there are those among us who object to ex-Presidents earning vast sums of money as a result of their status, presumably partly because of the suspicion that they gave favourable treatment in advance when in power, and unfortunately there are established ways people can pay for access to politicians, but that sitting presidents should benefit financially from their status while in office immediately puts the country in a category it has never approached before, call that category what you will: banana republic? kleptocracy? In any case, no club you would ever want to join…..
But it’s not a bribe if they pay for a hotel room and stay in it.
Correct. It’s not a bribe. It’s payment. It is compensation for services rendered.
Another word for that is “emolument”. Go look it up.
Article I, Section 9, Clause 8 of the US Constitution:
: shruggie :
After taking office, Trump received about 3 dozen IP grants for the use of his name as a brand.
: shruggie :
There is no point in spending time debating this stuff. With Marty, or anyone else. People see, think, believe, what they want to.
We rely on our legal and political institutions to investigate this kind of stuff, discover the truth, and take appropriate action. As far as I can tell, that mechanism has been co-opted at this point, and is no longer reliable. Because events and actions that are plainly and obviously in the public record, appear like magic to have simply never happened.
So yeah, fnck it. Different realities.
I will spend my vote, my time, my money, and if necessary my physical person on resisting and defeating the likes of Trump et al. Because they are a cancer on the nation and on the world.
I won’t spend any more time debating shit like this with Marty or anyone else. There is no upside.
Defeat them. Win elections and in the meantime do what you can to minimize the damage of their harmful policies on yourselves, people you care about, people you don’t care about for that matter. Defeat them and make them irrelevant.
Persuasion takes generations. We don’t have enough time to rely on that.
But it’s not a bribe if they pay for a hotel room and stay in it.
Correct. It’s not a bribe. It’s payment. It is compensation for services rendered.
Another word for that is “emolument”. Go look it up.
Article I, Section 9, Clause 8 of the US Constitution:
: shruggie :
After taking office, Trump received about 3 dozen IP grants for the use of his name as a brand.
: shruggie :
There is no point in spending time debating this stuff. With Marty, or anyone else. People see, think, believe, what they want to.
We rely on our legal and political institutions to investigate this kind of stuff, discover the truth, and take appropriate action. As far as I can tell, that mechanism has been co-opted at this point, and is no longer reliable. Because events and actions that are plainly and obviously in the public record, appear like magic to have simply never happened.
So yeah, fnck it. Different realities.
I will spend my vote, my time, my money, and if necessary my physical person on resisting and defeating the likes of Trump et al. Because they are a cancer on the nation and on the world.
I won’t spend any more time debating shit like this with Marty or anyone else. There is no upside.
Defeat them. Win elections and in the meantime do what you can to minimize the damage of their harmful policies on yourselves, people you care about, people you don’t care about for that matter. Defeat them and make them irrelevant.
Persuasion takes generations. We don’t have enough time to rely on that.
Trump received about 3 dozen IP grants for the use of his name as a brand from the government of China.
Apologies for the omission.
Trump received about 3 dozen IP grants for the use of his name as a brand from the government of China.
Apologies for the omission.
The IP I object to. Even though the applications were pending before the election, they should not have been granted to a sitting President.
The IP I object to. Even though the applications were pending before the election, they should not have been granted to a sitting President.
As well you should. It’s a violation of the Constitution and of his oath of office.
Hotel payments, same/same. It’s payment for services rendered. Which is one of the definitions of emolument, and not an obscure one.
Meanwhile, Assange is being extradited to the UK. He will no doubt find his way to US custody shortly.
Never a dull moment.
As well you should. It’s a violation of the Constitution and of his oath of office.
Hotel payments, same/same. It’s payment for services rendered. Which is one of the definitions of emolument, and not an obscure one.
Meanwhile, Assange is being extradited to the UK. He will no doubt find his way to US custody shortly.
Never a dull moment.
Marty is a lost cause. But he’s got nuthin on Rep. Thomas Massie (R-KY), whose demented performance in yesterday’s House Oversight Committee hearing caused John Kerry (the witness before him) to ask “Congressman, are you serious?” You can watch this specimen dishonor his Brass Rat here.
“What’s a Brass Rat?” I hear you cry. Hold on, I’m coming to that.
I caught a replay of the spectacle on the news last night, and heard the reporter mention that Massie has a BSEE and an MSME from MIT, and got rich with a “haptic” invention he made while still an undergrad. That combination of facts rang a bell with me, so I looked it up and sure enough: I knew the guy. In a sense, I taught the guy.
Fall term, 1992. I was working at the old Digital Equipment Corporation at the time. DEC was still a big, self-important company back then, and one of the manifestations of its self-importance was this: every year, they would offer two of their engineers a “fellowship” (I think it was called that) to spend half their time as Teaching Assistants at MIT. Specifically, for MIT’s famous course 2.70-Introduction to Design. That’s the one where the students, a couple of hundred of them, are each given an identical bag of junk from which to build a machine to compete against each other in a single-elimination tournament at the end of the term. The contest is different every year.
Whereas 2.70 had been my favorite course, and whereas I was getting bored designing disk drives, I applied for one of the fellowship slots, and got it. I became the TA for one of the 10 “sections” of the class; I had about 20 students.
Young Tom Massie was not one of them. He was in a different section, so I exaggerate even when I say I taught him “in a sense”. But the student shop where the kids built their machines was a common resource, and always active, and I can’t swear I never showed Massie how to use the lathe. Still, my first definite memory of him is seeing him and his machine in action in the 1st round.
“That”, I said to myself, “is one brilliant kid! His design is the absolute optimal one, and his machine is admirably crafted, and if he doesn’t win the whole enchilada I’ll eat my hat!” However many rounds later, after his machine stomped all over the other finalist, I handed him the tournament trophy, which by tradition one of the TAs (me, that year) builds out of the same kit of junk as the students get. He hardly noticed; he was too busy hugging and kissing his girlfriend who had been his assistant throughout the tournament, and who I believe is his wife now.
A couple of years later, I heard in passing from Woodie Flowers (my old prof, and the architect if not the founder of 2.70) that Massie had started a company building “haptic devices”. Good for him, I thought, although I had to look up “haptic” when I got home. He made it big, it turns out. Made a bundle eventually; retired back to his Kentucky home town where he built himself a completely solar-powered house; and got himself elected to Congress.
And made a complete asshole of himself in the above hearing. Really, you have to watch it. The stupidest, smarmiest, most-Trump-besotted ignoramus you ever met could not hope to match this genius’s performance.
Oh, yeah: in case you don’t know, the Brass Rat is the MIT ring — so called because it features a beaver. You’re supposed to wear it with the beaver shitting toward you before you graduate, and turn it around so he shits on the rest of the world afterward. So I’m told; I was never much of a one for jewelry.
I do believe Rep. Massie’s Brass Rat is visible in the video. Can’t make out which way around he’s wearing it. But I can guess.
–TP
Marty is a lost cause. But he’s got nuthin on Rep. Thomas Massie (R-KY), whose demented performance in yesterday’s House Oversight Committee hearing caused John Kerry (the witness before him) to ask “Congressman, are you serious?” You can watch this specimen dishonor his Brass Rat here.
“What’s a Brass Rat?” I hear you cry. Hold on, I’m coming to that.
I caught a replay of the spectacle on the news last night, and heard the reporter mention that Massie has a BSEE and an MSME from MIT, and got rich with a “haptic” invention he made while still an undergrad. That combination of facts rang a bell with me, so I looked it up and sure enough: I knew the guy. In a sense, I taught the guy.
Fall term, 1992. I was working at the old Digital Equipment Corporation at the time. DEC was still a big, self-important company back then, and one of the manifestations of its self-importance was this: every year, they would offer two of their engineers a “fellowship” (I think it was called that) to spend half their time as Teaching Assistants at MIT. Specifically, for MIT’s famous course 2.70-Introduction to Design. That’s the one where the students, a couple of hundred of them, are each given an identical bag of junk from which to build a machine to compete against each other in a single-elimination tournament at the end of the term. The contest is different every year.
Whereas 2.70 had been my favorite course, and whereas I was getting bored designing disk drives, I applied for one of the fellowship slots, and got it. I became the TA for one of the 10 “sections” of the class; I had about 20 students.
Young Tom Massie was not one of them. He was in a different section, so I exaggerate even when I say I taught him “in a sense”. But the student shop where the kids built their machines was a common resource, and always active, and I can’t swear I never showed Massie how to use the lathe. Still, my first definite memory of him is seeing him and his machine in action in the 1st round.
“That”, I said to myself, “is one brilliant kid! His design is the absolute optimal one, and his machine is admirably crafted, and if he doesn’t win the whole enchilada I’ll eat my hat!” However many rounds later, after his machine stomped all over the other finalist, I handed him the tournament trophy, which by tradition one of the TAs (me, that year) builds out of the same kit of junk as the students get. He hardly noticed; he was too busy hugging and kissing his girlfriend who had been his assistant throughout the tournament, and who I believe is his wife now.
A couple of years later, I heard in passing from Woodie Flowers (my old prof, and the architect if not the founder of 2.70) that Massie had started a company building “haptic devices”. Good for him, I thought, although I had to look up “haptic” when I got home. He made it big, it turns out. Made a bundle eventually; retired back to his Kentucky home town where he built himself a completely solar-powered house; and got himself elected to Congress.
And made a complete asshole of himself in the above hearing. Really, you have to watch it. The stupidest, smarmiest, most-Trump-besotted ignoramus you ever met could not hope to match this genius’s performance.
Oh, yeah: in case you don’t know, the Brass Rat is the MIT ring — so called because it features a beaver. You’re supposed to wear it with the beaver shitting toward you before you graduate, and turn it around so he shits on the rest of the world afterward. So I’m told; I was never much of a one for jewelry.
I do believe Rep. Massie’s Brass Rat is visible in the video. Can’t make out which way around he’s wearing it. But I can guess.
–TP
Francis Bacon admitted that he accepted gifts, but protested that he hadn’t allowed them to influence his decisions.
However, he’d omitted to appoint a panel of partisan judges to hear his case, so he was convicted anyway.
Ingenu that I am, I’m shocked by Marty’s indifference to this one. This sort of thing doesn’t happen in a proper country. Or in any country with a proper president. Whether or not lawyers can be found to defend it.
Francis Bacon admitted that he accepted gifts, but protested that he hadn’t allowed them to influence his decisions.
However, he’d omitted to appoint a panel of partisan judges to hear his case, so he was convicted anyway.
Ingenu that I am, I’m shocked by Marty’s indifference to this one. This sort of thing doesn’t happen in a proper country. Or in any country with a proper president. Whether or not lawyers can be found to defend it.
cleek has been mysteriously silent during this most recent outbreak of MartyTrumpism.
Too busy pulling on the puppet strings? Or is that too old-school?
Perhaps a direct brain-interface wire to impose Cleek’s Law. It would be irresponsible not to speculate.
Hey cleek, try turning up the voltage to 10kV; let’s see what happens.
cleek has been mysteriously silent during this most recent outbreak of MartyTrumpism.
Too busy pulling on the puppet strings? Or is that too old-school?
Perhaps a direct brain-interface wire to impose Cleek’s Law. It would be irresponsible not to speculate.
Hey cleek, try turning up the voltage to 10kV; let’s see what happens.
cleek is in Scotland.
He has fine photos over at his place.
cleek is in Scotland.
He has fine photos over at his place.
No, in proper countries people who own real estate business dont get elected I guess.
hotel rooms are not emoluments, by any definition. IP for your name, yes.
No, in proper countries people who own real estate business dont get elected I guess.
hotel rooms are not emoluments, by any definition. IP for your name, yes.
“No, in proper countries people who own real estate business don’t get elected I guess.”
Right up there with Tony P’s Thomas Massie in the category of willfully missing the point.
Massie, in any other venue with a mouth on him like that would be on the losing end of a vicious, savage fist fight.
The firing squads will be busy when the time arrives.
I don’t see how Kentucky is going to survive as a functioning polity when there are more vermin lining the roads with their heads on pikes than providing support for rube hairdos.
“No, in proper countries people who own real estate business don’t get elected I guess.”
Right up there with Tony P’s Thomas Massie in the category of willfully missing the point.
Massie, in any other venue with a mouth on him like that would be on the losing end of a vicious, savage fist fight.
The firing squads will be busy when the time arrives.
I don’t see how Kentucky is going to survive as a functioning polity when there are more vermin lining the roads with their heads on pikes than providing support for rube hairdos.
Well, it’s true that no properly functioning democracy would have elected a man like Trump in the first place.
But if a businessman is elected, his duty is to ensure that there can be no conflict between his business and his elected office. Which may well mean divesting himself of all interest in the business.
hotel rooms are not emoluments, by any definition
By an 18th century definition, they were. The older meaning is any sort of material gain. I wonder how the soi-disant originalist Trump judges will get out of that.
And if hotel rooms are not covered by “emoluments”, using his hotel as a favour to Trump, as foreign governments are openly doing, is a “present” to him. The clause forbids “any present, emolument,…, of any kind whatever”.
Only a Trump shill could profess to read the clause as allowing this.
Well, it’s true that no properly functioning democracy would have elected a man like Trump in the first place.
But if a businessman is elected, his duty is to ensure that there can be no conflict between his business and his elected office. Which may well mean divesting himself of all interest in the business.
hotel rooms are not emoluments, by any definition
By an 18th century definition, they were. The older meaning is any sort of material gain. I wonder how the soi-disant originalist Trump judges will get out of that.
And if hotel rooms are not covered by “emoluments”, using his hotel as a favour to Trump, as foreign governments are openly doing, is a “present” to him. The clause forbids “any present, emolument,…, of any kind whatever”.
Only a Trump shill could profess to read the clause as allowing this.
If you owned a packie in downtown DC and people stopped to buy booze there, would you have to sell it to be President? Or if your sister-in-law ran it would that be good enough?
I didnt miss the point, I just dont agree with it.
If you owned a packie in downtown DC and people stopped to buy booze there, would you have to sell it to be President? Or if your sister-in-law ran it would that be good enough?
I didnt miss the point, I just dont agree with it.
If lobbyists started patronising it as a favour to me, then yes, of course I should sell it.
If lobbyists started patronising it as a favour to me, then yes, of course I should sell it.
If lobbyists started patronising it as a favour to me, then yes, of course I should sell it.
And this has always been understood, by all respectable politicians. Which is why they have divested before taking office. This is precisely the kind of thing which is avoided in all respectable administrations and countries, and is ridiculed and criticised in administrations and countries which flout these norms and are therefore considered gangster entities. We can only hope (but with considerable trepidation) that this is a temporary blip in what is considered acceptable in America.
If lobbyists started patronising it as a favour to me, then yes, of course I should sell it.
And this has always been understood, by all respectable politicians. Which is why they have divested before taking office. This is precisely the kind of thing which is avoided in all respectable administrations and countries, and is ridiculed and criticised in administrations and countries which flout these norms and are therefore considered gangster entities. We can only hope (but with considerable trepidation) that this is a temporary blip in what is considered acceptable in America.
Let’s not forget that Rump leases the building from the federal government. Yet another wrinkle.
Let’s not forget that Rump leases the building from the federal government. Yet another wrinkle.
So there were three references in the article that agreed with my position, but Blackstone seems to disagree. Only by interpretation of what he wrote previously, which is not actually very on point.
But, I understand your interpretation, and I can see how and why you would come to that conclusion.
I simply disagree that purchssing something in a commonplace transaction from his business is doing him a favor. And, I dont care about him, I care that, by that definition, that no one outside the political class in this country could be President.
Which russell has indicated is an acceptable limitation to him.
So there were three references in the article that agreed with my position, but Blackstone seems to disagree. Only by interpretation of what he wrote previously, which is not actually very on point.
But, I understand your interpretation, and I can see how and why you would come to that conclusion.
I simply disagree that purchssing something in a commonplace transaction from his business is doing him a favor. And, I dont care about him, I care that, by that definition, that no one outside the political class in this country could be President.
Which russell has indicated is an acceptable limitation to him.
I’d say if once you become President, and suddenly traffic picks up directly following your election in the form of long lines of limousines from foreign embassies, the mob, and every corporate entity in the land filling their trunks with the top shelf stuff, not to mention enjoying whatever freebie happy endings can be had from the kidnapped Central American kids imprisoned in cages in the basement, that the liquor store should be firebombed more times than southern black churches are burned to the ground by nutcases on eternal retainer by the racist conservative movement.
Or, and I prefer this avenue, the liquor store can be sold, placed in a hands-off trust, to wit, don’t break the fucking law in the first place.
Why not move the liquor store into the Lincoln bedroom and be done with it in stinking corrupt America.
I’d say if once you become President, and suddenly traffic picks up directly following your election in the form of long lines of limousines from foreign embassies, the mob, and every corporate entity in the land filling their trunks with the top shelf stuff, not to mention enjoying whatever freebie happy endings can be had from the kidnapped Central American kids imprisoned in cages in the basement, that the liquor store should be firebombed more times than southern black churches are burned to the ground by nutcases on eternal retainer by the racist conservative movement.
Or, and I prefer this avenue, the liquor store can be sold, placed in a hands-off trust, to wit, don’t break the fucking law in the first place.
Why not move the liquor store into the Lincoln bedroom and be done with it in stinking corrupt America.
And, I dont care about him, I care that, by that definition, that no one outside the political class in this country could be President.
Why? Because everyone outside the political class owns businesses that could reasonably be assumed to be patronized by foreign dignitaries, lobbyists, or whoever might do so to influence the president? You do see the difference between a luxury hotel on Pennsylvania f**king Avenue and a business in the middle of, say, Pennsylvania(!) that sells car parts or whatever, right?
That hotel (leased from the government of which the president is the highest official, no less) is practically designed for influence by enrichment. It’s hard to imagine a more egregious case for this sort of thing. We’re not talking about a guy with a tire store in Arkansas.
And, I dont care about him, I care that, by that definition, that no one outside the political class in this country could be President.
Why? Because everyone outside the political class owns businesses that could reasonably be assumed to be patronized by foreign dignitaries, lobbyists, or whoever might do so to influence the president? You do see the difference between a luxury hotel on Pennsylvania f**king Avenue and a business in the middle of, say, Pennsylvania(!) that sells car parts or whatever, right?
That hotel (leased from the government of which the president is the highest official, no less) is practically designed for influence by enrichment. It’s hard to imagine a more egregious case for this sort of thing. We’re not talking about a guy with a tire store in Arkansas.
This reminds me of Scalia’s specious argument that torture to obtain information, in advance, does not constitute “cruel and unusual punishment”, so is not prohibited by US law, on the grounds that you are not “punishing” someone after they have been convicted of a crime.
It is crystal clear, in every civilised country on earth (including the US) that a situation which allows foreign governments to enrich your sitting head of state, in the hopes (no matter whether justified or not) that this will obtain for them preferential treatment, is unacceptable and illegal. To some of the countries doing this (China for example), the quid pro quo expectation is so culturally obvious that it goes without saying, which of course makes it very convenient when a court considering this may be compromised because appointed by the relevant head of state, or when partisans argue from a wilfully naive position of innocence which they certainly would not do if the action in question related to a politician/head of state of the opposing party.
This reminds me of Scalia’s specious argument that torture to obtain information, in advance, does not constitute “cruel and unusual punishment”, so is not prohibited by US law, on the grounds that you are not “punishing” someone after they have been convicted of a crime.
It is crystal clear, in every civilised country on earth (including the US) that a situation which allows foreign governments to enrich your sitting head of state, in the hopes (no matter whether justified or not) that this will obtain for them preferential treatment, is unacceptable and illegal. To some of the countries doing this (China for example), the quid pro quo expectation is so culturally obvious that it goes without saying, which of course makes it very convenient when a court considering this may be compromised because appointed by the relevant head of state, or when partisans argue from a wilfully naive position of innocence which they certainly would not do if the action in question related to a politician/head of state of the opposing party.
The obvious reading of “presents [or] emoluments … of any kind whatever” is that it covers all financial advantage. Which is just as one would expect in an anti-bribery clause.
by that definition, that no one outside the political class in this country could be President.
Utter nonsense. By that definition, no one can be President if he owns businesses which can be used to accept gifts in the guise of purchases, and is unwilling to sell them. The only person we know to be excluded by that is Trump.
The obvious reading of “presents [or] emoluments … of any kind whatever” is that it covers all financial advantage. Which is just as one would expect in an anti-bribery clause.
by that definition, that no one outside the political class in this country could be President.
Utter nonsense. By that definition, no one can be President if he owns businesses which can be used to accept gifts in the guise of purchases, and is unwilling to sell them. The only person we know to be excluded by that is Trump.
It’s nothing. Really.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-saudi-lobbyist-trump-hotel-election-20181205-story.html
It’s nothing. Really.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-saudi-lobbyist-trump-hotel-election-20181205-story.html
No, in proper countries people who own real estate business dont get elected I guess.
Proper, not proper, whatever.
In *this* country, for decades, Presidents have placed their assets outside of their control. To avoid this exact issue.
Which russell has indicated is an acceptable limitation to him.
And I’m calling you a liar. Don’t twist my words to make your case, dude. Make your own case.
Go find it, and show it here. Or stand down from this statement.
No, in proper countries people who own real estate business dont get elected I guess.
Proper, not proper, whatever.
In *this* country, for decades, Presidents have placed their assets outside of their control. To avoid this exact issue.
Which russell has indicated is an acceptable limitation to him.
And I’m calling you a liar. Don’t twist my words to make your case, dude. Make your own case.
Go find it, and show it here. Or stand down from this statement.
Marty does have the current incarnation of the justice department on his side. Down we go!
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/apr/09/dojs-new-stance-on-foreign-payments-or-gifts-to-trump-blurs-lines-experts
Marty does have the current incarnation of the justice department on his side. Down we go!
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/apr/09/dojs-new-stance-on-foreign-payments-or-gifts-to-trump-blurs-lines-experts
Murderous Saudi princes need tires too and a good stiff drink afterwards, regardless of the Koran.
“I simply disagree that purchasing something in a commonplace transaction from his business is doing him a favor.”
Then stay at the Marriott with the free breakfast.
“commonplace transaction”
See Tony Soprano’s so-called legitimate sanitation money-laundering service. With anodyne phraseology like that, you could be a decent mob attorney.
If anything, the taxpayers of the foreign countries, the shareholders and rank and file employees of the corporations, the benefactors of the lobbying firms, and Tony Soprano’s kids shouldn’t be reimbursing the exorbitant daily per diem these malefactors are handing over to enrich p and his crime family.
Try an eyeglass prescription change to correct the myopia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JI8AMRbqY6w
Cribbed from Hullabaloo on the same subject. So sue me.
Murderous Saudi princes need tires too and a good stiff drink afterwards, regardless of the Koran.
“I simply disagree that purchasing something in a commonplace transaction from his business is doing him a favor.”
Then stay at the Marriott with the free breakfast.
“commonplace transaction”
See Tony Soprano’s so-called legitimate sanitation money-laundering service. With anodyne phraseology like that, you could be a decent mob attorney.
If anything, the taxpayers of the foreign countries, the shareholders and rank and file employees of the corporations, the benefactors of the lobbying firms, and Tony Soprano’s kids shouldn’t be reimbursing the exorbitant daily per diem these malefactors are handing over to enrich p and his crime family.
Try an eyeglass prescription change to correct the myopia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JI8AMRbqY6w
Cribbed from Hullabaloo on the same subject. So sue me.
accepting bribes is completely unacceptable. But it’s not a bribe if they pay for a hotel room and stay in it. It may be sucking up to the President but there is nothing new about that.
Depends. If the room rate has been the same for years, you might have a point. If it abruptly went up, it’s a different story. Just like, from a different story in the current news, if you sell a college coach a million dollar house for $300K, that’s a bribe.
accepting bribes is completely unacceptable. But it’s not a bribe if they pay for a hotel room and stay in it. It may be sucking up to the President but there is nothing new about that.
Depends. If the room rate has been the same for years, you might have a point. If it abruptly went up, it’s a different story. Just like, from a different story in the current news, if you sell a college coach a million dollar house for $300K, that’s a bribe.
A non-ethically challenged person would divest from the hotel to avoid the mere appearance of being influenced and would do so to preserve public faith in our institutions. Rump ain’t that guy.
A non-ethically challenged person would divest from the hotel to avoid the mere appearance of being influenced and would do so to preserve public faith in our institutions. Rump ain’t that guy.
Oh, I should acknowledge that Marty did distinguish between Obama and Trump from an ethical standpoint. My comment on that was unclear. The Trump-Obama conversation was just what let to the Trump-Clinton conversation. The latter was the source of my frustration.
Oh, I should acknowledge that Marty did distinguish between Obama and Trump from an ethical standpoint. My comment on that was unclear. The Trump-Obama conversation was just what let to the Trump-Clinton conversation. The latter was the source of my frustration.
If you owned a packie in downtown DC and people stopped to buy booze there, would you have to sell it to be President?
If the terms of the lease (he doesn’t own the building) specifically says the lease cannot be an employee of the Federal government, as it does, then yeah you have to let it go. Because otherwise you are in violation of your contract.
If you owned a packie in downtown DC and people stopped to buy booze there, would you have to sell it to be President?
If the terms of the lease (he doesn’t own the building) specifically says the lease cannot be an employee of the Federal government, as it does, then yeah you have to let it go. Because otherwise you are in violation of your contract.
The membership fee for Mar e Lago went from $100K to $200K. On January 1, 2019.
And, just for the record, russell got the year wrong: the membership fee for Mar-a-lago doubled in January 2017 – the month after Trump was elected.
The membership fee for Mar e Lago went from $100K to $200K. On January 1, 2019.
And, just for the record, russell got the year wrong: the membership fee for Mar-a-lago doubled in January 2017 – the month after Trump was elected.
If you owned a packie in downtown DC, and immediately after your election every embassy in DC began sourcing their hooch from your packie, that would be a reasonable basis for saying you should get the packie at arms length. More than arms length, you should isolate yourself from knowing who is shopping at your packie.
That is the norm, to avoid questions of undue influence.
And, as I and others have pointed out in this thread, that leaves aside the fact that Trump et al are violating the terms of the lease simply by holding it.
This is so freaking obvious that it pains me to have to lay it out. I feel like I’m being trolled, and that pisses me the hell off.
The disparity between what counts as an Obvious Abuse Of Office for (D)s and (R)s, likewise. A tiny bit of self-awareness and candor would go a long way.
Time to go eat lunch, then I have work to do. Enjoy your day.
If you owned a packie in downtown DC, and immediately after your election every embassy in DC began sourcing their hooch from your packie, that would be a reasonable basis for saying you should get the packie at arms length. More than arms length, you should isolate yourself from knowing who is shopping at your packie.
That is the norm, to avoid questions of undue influence.
And, as I and others have pointed out in this thread, that leaves aside the fact that Trump et al are violating the terms of the lease simply by holding it.
This is so freaking obvious that it pains me to have to lay it out. I feel like I’m being trolled, and that pisses me the hell off.
The disparity between what counts as an Obvious Abuse Of Office for (D)s and (R)s, likewise. A tiny bit of self-awareness and candor would go a long way.
Time to go eat lunch, then I have work to do. Enjoy your day.
And, just for the record, russell got the year wrong
Yes, my bad. The increase – the *doubling* – of the membership fee occurred on Jan 1 2017.
But Obama wrote a book, and Al Gore flies in planes. So,
: shruggie :
This is why I say it’s a waste of time to try to engage with Trumpies. Making everybody else in the world jump through hoops to discuss simple matters of fact appears to be some kind of parlor game for them.
Trump could, in fact, shoot somebody on Fifth Ave., and his supporters would get his back. They wouldn’t even blink.
And, just for the record, russell got the year wrong
Yes, my bad. The increase – the *doubling* – of the membership fee occurred on Jan 1 2017.
But Obama wrote a book, and Al Gore flies in planes. So,
: shruggie :
This is why I say it’s a waste of time to try to engage with Trumpies. Making everybody else in the world jump through hoops to discuss simple matters of fact appears to be some kind of parlor game for them.
Trump could, in fact, shoot somebody on Fifth Ave., and his supporters would get his back. They wouldn’t even blink.
This is why I say it’s a waste of time to try to engage with Trumpies. Making everybody else in the world jump through hoops to discuss simple matters of fact appears to be some kind of parlor game for them.
More than understandable.
Trump could, in fact, shoot somebody on Fifth Ave., and his supporters would get his back. They wouldn’t even blink
This is probably true too. And given the re-election (practically speaking) of Netanyahu, the downward momentum of the world going to hell in a handbasket is probably unstoppable too. It’s all unutterably depressing, and any course of action that makes it temporarily more bearable, and preserves one’s personal sanity (and what energy one has for the fight) makes plenty of sense.
Eheu.
This is why I say it’s a waste of time to try to engage with Trumpies. Making everybody else in the world jump through hoops to discuss simple matters of fact appears to be some kind of parlor game for them.
More than understandable.
Trump could, in fact, shoot somebody on Fifth Ave., and his supporters would get his back. They wouldn’t even blink
This is probably true too. And given the re-election (practically speaking) of Netanyahu, the downward momentum of the world going to hell in a handbasket is probably unstoppable too. It’s all unutterably depressing, and any course of action that makes it temporarily more bearable, and preserves one’s personal sanity (and what energy one has for the fight) makes plenty of sense.
Eheu.
At this point, p shooting of the person on Fifth Avenue would swiftly be masticated and digested by the vermin American political/media alimentary canal as a “commonplace occurrence” and shat out in the form of a gaudy costume jewelry diamond and displayed with rube pride on the wedding ring finger of every p dupe around the globe.
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2019/04/i-know-nothing-about-wikileaks-its-not.html
“I know nothing about Wikileaks”
It’s in the link, but Marty has no intention of reading it, just as p has not read the Mueller report or Barr’s corrupt lying “summary”, so here ya go:
Trump to Bill O’Reilly: “Wikileaks is amazing”
The problem is, Bill, I would hammer it, but the press doesn’t pick it up. The press is hardly even talking about Wikileaks. You now that. Wikileaks is amazing. The stuff that’s coming out, it shows she’s a real liar. She said, well, you have to say to the public and you have to say to your donors different things. Okay? The press doesn’t even pick this stuff up. You look at, where are you seeing it? [10/11/16]
Trump: “Wikileaks, some new stuff, some brutal stuff”
We have all of these new charges, did you see it just came down today? Wikileaks, some new stuff, some brutal stuff. I mean I’d read it to you but to hell with it trust me it’s real bad stuff. The speech transcripts contain scandalous revelations about Hillary Clinton that disqualify her from seeking public office. And she is. [10/10/16]
Trump says Wikileaks proves Clinton should not “be able to run for president”
No one who supports open borders should be able to run for president because we won’t have a country. And buy the way weeks ago I called out Hillary Clinton for supporting open borders and the media said I was wrong. Now I’ve been proven right. Where is the media rushing to correct these false stories? Because in the Wikileaks it was all about open borders. [10/10/16]
Trump: “Wikileaks. I love Wikileaks”
Wikileaks, I love Wikileaks. And I said write a couple of them down. Let’s see. During a speech crooked Hillary Clinton, oh she’s crooked folks. She’s crooked as a three-dollar bill. Okay here’s one. Just came out. ‘Lock her up’ is right. [10/10/16]
Trump: “You see so much from these Wikileaks. You see so much. There’s so much.”
It’s just the latest evidence of the hatred that the Clinton campaign really has for everyday Americans and you see, and you see so much from these Wikileaks. You see so much. There’s so much. [10/11/16]
Trump: “I’ll tell you this Wikileaks stuff is unbelievable…you gotta read it.”
I’ll tell you this Wikileaks stuff is unbelievable. It tells you the inner heart, you gotta read it and you gotta maybe get it because they’re not putting it out. They want to put it out but they can’t do that because without the media and without the press Hillary Clinton would be nothing. She’d be nothing. Zero. [10/12/16]
Trump: “One of the big advantages of me having a rather large microphone… is that I can talk about Wikileaks”
And one of the big advantages of me having a rather large microphone, and meaning a lot of people are listening, is that I can talk about Wikileaks and we are live, it’s amazing. Boom boom boom. I think they are just turning them all off. Watch, you go home, they’ll say, ‘why did it end so abruptly?’ [10/12/16]
Trump: “You hear this? Wikileaks. Big stuff but the press does not report it”
You hear this? Wikileaks. Big stuff but the press does not report it because honestly without the press, without the media, Hillary Clinton is nothing. She’s nothing okay? She’s nothing. [10/12/16]
Trump: Wikileaks reveals Clinton would be “the most corrupt person ever elected to high office”
She would be the most dishonest and the most corrupt person ever elected to high office. The Wikileaks emails show the Department of Justice fed information to Clinton, now think of this. She is under investigation. [10/12/16]
Trump: Wikileaks reveals “the massive international corruption of the Clinton machine”
And so now we address the slander and libels that was just last night thrown at me by the Clinton machine and New York Times and other media outlets as part of a concerted, coordinated, and vicious attack. It’s not coincidence that these attacks come at the exact same moment and altogether at the same time as Wikileaks releases documents exposing the massive international corruption of the Clinton machine, including 2,000 more emails just this morning. [10/13/16]
Trump: “The sad part is we don’t talk about Wikileaks because it’s incredible.”
The sad part is we don’t talk about Wikileaks because it’s incredible. But Wikileaks just came out with a lot of new ones. And it would be wonderful if these very dishonest people back there would talk about it. It would be wonderful. It would be wonderful. [10/13/16]
Trump: “Wikileaks unveils horrible, horrible things about Hillary Clinton”
It’s a total setup. Now suddenly after many, many years, phony accusers come out less than a month before one of the most important elections in the history of our country. It also comes at a time as Wikileaks unveils horrible, horrible things about Hillary Clinton but they’d rather talk about this. [10/14/16]
Trump on Wikileaks: “There’s bad, bad stuff [the media is] not covering”
The Hillary Clinton documents released by Wikileaks make more clear than ever, and they don’t cover them the way they’re supposed to be covering. There’s bad, bad stuff they’re not covering. [10/15/16]
Trump: “Wikileaks came out with lots of really unbelievable things”
And by the way, Wikileaks came out with lots of really unbelievable things. Just minutes ago. In fact, I almost delayed this speech by about two hours, it’s so interesting. But I decided you’re more important than anybody, okay? It’s all a big, beautiful fraud. [10/15/16]
Trump: The media “will not talk about Wikileaks”
The media is an extension of the Clinton campaign as Wikileaks has proven, and they will not talk about Wikileaks. [10/17/16]
Trump: “Boy, that Wikileaks has done a job on her, hasn’t it?”
I said open border, and she, open border, I don’t want open border but she, turned out she wanted open borders. Boy, that Wikileaks has done a job on her, hasn’t it? [10/20/16]
Trump: “We’ve learned so much from Wikileaks”
“We’ve learned so much from Wikileaks. For example, Hillary believes it’s vital to deceive the people by having one public policy — [ booing ] — And a totally different policy in private. That’s okay. [10/20/16]
Trump: “We love Wikileaks. Wikileaks.”
We love Wikileaks. Wikileaks. They have revealed a lot. They’ve revealed that there is a great hostility toward Catholics. They reveal a great hostility toward Evangelicals. [10/21/16]
Trump: “A terrible Wikileaks was released just moments ago… you’ll be sickened by it”
A terrible Wikileaks was just released moments ago, which you’ll go home, you’ll see it, and you’ll be sickened by it and that she can get away with what she’s getting away with. [10/25/16]
Trump: “Wikileaks revelations have exposed criminal corruption at the highest levels of our government”
The Wikileaks revelations have exposed criminal corruption at the highest levels of our government. [10/29/16]
Trump: Wikileaks show “a rigged system with more collusion, probably illegal”
Out today, Wikileaks just came out with a new one just a little while ago it’s just been shown that a rigged system with more collusion, probably illegal, between the Department of Justice the Clinton campaign and the State Department, you saw that. The emails show that the assistant attorney general who’s involved in the investigation has been feeding information directly to John Podesta and the Clinton campaign, can you believe that. She shouldn’t be allowed to run. [11/02/16]
Trump: Wikileaks revealed Clinton was “completely jeopardizing the national security of the United States”
Just today we learned Hillary Clinton was sending highly-classified information through her maid. Did you see? Just came out a little while ago. Who, therefore, had total access to this information, completely jeopardizing the national security of the United States. This just came out, Wikileaks. We need a government that can go to work on day one for the American people. That will be impossible with Hillary Clinton, the prime suspect in a far-reaching criminal investigation. [11/05/16]
At this point, p shooting of the person on Fifth Avenue would swiftly be masticated and digested by the vermin American political/media alimentary canal as a “commonplace occurrence” and shat out in the form of a gaudy costume jewelry diamond and displayed with rube pride on the wedding ring finger of every p dupe around the globe.
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2019/04/i-know-nothing-about-wikileaks-its-not.html
“I know nothing about Wikileaks”
It’s in the link, but Marty has no intention of reading it, just as p has not read the Mueller report or Barr’s corrupt lying “summary”, so here ya go:
Trump to Bill O’Reilly: “Wikileaks is amazing”
The problem is, Bill, I would hammer it, but the press doesn’t pick it up. The press is hardly even talking about Wikileaks. You now that. Wikileaks is amazing. The stuff that’s coming out, it shows she’s a real liar. She said, well, you have to say to the public and you have to say to your donors different things. Okay? The press doesn’t even pick this stuff up. You look at, where are you seeing it? [10/11/16]
Trump: “Wikileaks, some new stuff, some brutal stuff”
We have all of these new charges, did you see it just came down today? Wikileaks, some new stuff, some brutal stuff. I mean I’d read it to you but to hell with it trust me it’s real bad stuff. The speech transcripts contain scandalous revelations about Hillary Clinton that disqualify her from seeking public office. And she is. [10/10/16]
Trump says Wikileaks proves Clinton should not “be able to run for president”
No one who supports open borders should be able to run for president because we won’t have a country. And buy the way weeks ago I called out Hillary Clinton for supporting open borders and the media said I was wrong. Now I’ve been proven right. Where is the media rushing to correct these false stories? Because in the Wikileaks it was all about open borders. [10/10/16]
Trump: “Wikileaks. I love Wikileaks”
Wikileaks, I love Wikileaks. And I said write a couple of them down. Let’s see. During a speech crooked Hillary Clinton, oh she’s crooked folks. She’s crooked as a three-dollar bill. Okay here’s one. Just came out. ‘Lock her up’ is right. [10/10/16]
Trump: “You see so much from these Wikileaks. You see so much. There’s so much.”
It’s just the latest evidence of the hatred that the Clinton campaign really has for everyday Americans and you see, and you see so much from these Wikileaks. You see so much. There’s so much. [10/11/16]
Trump: “I’ll tell you this Wikileaks stuff is unbelievable…you gotta read it.”
I’ll tell you this Wikileaks stuff is unbelievable. It tells you the inner heart, you gotta read it and you gotta maybe get it because they’re not putting it out. They want to put it out but they can’t do that because without the media and without the press Hillary Clinton would be nothing. She’d be nothing. Zero. [10/12/16]
Trump: “One of the big advantages of me having a rather large microphone… is that I can talk about Wikileaks”
And one of the big advantages of me having a rather large microphone, and meaning a lot of people are listening, is that I can talk about Wikileaks and we are live, it’s amazing. Boom boom boom. I think they are just turning them all off. Watch, you go home, they’ll say, ‘why did it end so abruptly?’ [10/12/16]
Trump: “You hear this? Wikileaks. Big stuff but the press does not report it”
You hear this? Wikileaks. Big stuff but the press does not report it because honestly without the press, without the media, Hillary Clinton is nothing. She’s nothing okay? She’s nothing. [10/12/16]
Trump: Wikileaks reveals Clinton would be “the most corrupt person ever elected to high office”
She would be the most dishonest and the most corrupt person ever elected to high office. The Wikileaks emails show the Department of Justice fed information to Clinton, now think of this. She is under investigation. [10/12/16]
Trump: Wikileaks reveals “the massive international corruption of the Clinton machine”
And so now we address the slander and libels that was just last night thrown at me by the Clinton machine and New York Times and other media outlets as part of a concerted, coordinated, and vicious attack. It’s not coincidence that these attacks come at the exact same moment and altogether at the same time as Wikileaks releases documents exposing the massive international corruption of the Clinton machine, including 2,000 more emails just this morning. [10/13/16]
Trump: “The sad part is we don’t talk about Wikileaks because it’s incredible.”
The sad part is we don’t talk about Wikileaks because it’s incredible. But Wikileaks just came out with a lot of new ones. And it would be wonderful if these very dishonest people back there would talk about it. It would be wonderful. It would be wonderful. [10/13/16]
Trump: “Wikileaks unveils horrible, horrible things about Hillary Clinton”
It’s a total setup. Now suddenly after many, many years, phony accusers come out less than a month before one of the most important elections in the history of our country. It also comes at a time as Wikileaks unveils horrible, horrible things about Hillary Clinton but they’d rather talk about this. [10/14/16]
Trump on Wikileaks: “There’s bad, bad stuff [the media is] not covering”
The Hillary Clinton documents released by Wikileaks make more clear than ever, and they don’t cover them the way they’re supposed to be covering. There’s bad, bad stuff they’re not covering. [10/15/16]
Trump: “Wikileaks came out with lots of really unbelievable things”
And by the way, Wikileaks came out with lots of really unbelievable things. Just minutes ago. In fact, I almost delayed this speech by about two hours, it’s so interesting. But I decided you’re more important than anybody, okay? It’s all a big, beautiful fraud. [10/15/16]
Trump: The media “will not talk about Wikileaks”
The media is an extension of the Clinton campaign as Wikileaks has proven, and they will not talk about Wikileaks. [10/17/16]
Trump: “Boy, that Wikileaks has done a job on her, hasn’t it?”
I said open border, and she, open border, I don’t want open border but she, turned out she wanted open borders. Boy, that Wikileaks has done a job on her, hasn’t it? [10/20/16]
Trump: “We’ve learned so much from Wikileaks”
“We’ve learned so much from Wikileaks. For example, Hillary believes it’s vital to deceive the people by having one public policy — [ booing ] — And a totally different policy in private. That’s okay. [10/20/16]
Trump: “We love Wikileaks. Wikileaks.”
We love Wikileaks. Wikileaks. They have revealed a lot. They’ve revealed that there is a great hostility toward Catholics. They reveal a great hostility toward Evangelicals. [10/21/16]
Trump: “A terrible Wikileaks was released just moments ago… you’ll be sickened by it”
A terrible Wikileaks was just released moments ago, which you’ll go home, you’ll see it, and you’ll be sickened by it and that she can get away with what she’s getting away with. [10/25/16]
Trump: “Wikileaks revelations have exposed criminal corruption at the highest levels of our government”
The Wikileaks revelations have exposed criminal corruption at the highest levels of our government. [10/29/16]
Trump: Wikileaks show “a rigged system with more collusion, probably illegal”
Out today, Wikileaks just came out with a new one just a little while ago it’s just been shown that a rigged system with more collusion, probably illegal, between the Department of Justice the Clinton campaign and the State Department, you saw that. The emails show that the assistant attorney general who’s involved in the investigation has been feeding information directly to John Podesta and the Clinton campaign, can you believe that. She shouldn’t be allowed to run. [11/02/16]
Trump: Wikileaks revealed Clinton was “completely jeopardizing the national security of the United States”
Just today we learned Hillary Clinton was sending highly-classified information through her maid. Did you see? Just came out a little while ago. Who, therefore, had total access to this information, completely jeopardizing the national security of the United States. This just came out, Wikileaks. We need a government that can go to work on day one for the American people. That will be impossible with Hillary Clinton, the prime suspect in a far-reaching criminal investigation. [11/05/16]
Liberal and moderate Israelis of all backgrounds should immediately begin massive demonstrations and strikes to shut down the country demanding conservative Netanyahu and his fascist murderous corrupt “coalition” leave the government and when the conservative, nationalist and orthodox Israeli begin murdering their own people in the streets, which they will because that’s what conservatives do, explode into savage violence and chaos and the burn the country to the ground.
Rinse and repeat across the globe.
Liberal and moderate Israelis of all backgrounds should immediately begin massive demonstrations and strikes to shut down the country demanding conservative Netanyahu and his fascist murderous corrupt “coalition” leave the government and when the conservative, nationalist and orthodox Israeli begin murdering their own people in the streets, which they will because that’s what conservatives do, explode into savage violence and chaos and the burn the country to the ground.
Rinse and repeat across the globe.
Golly, what convenient timing:
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/04/ecuador-finally-gets-tired-of-julian-assange/
The intermeshing of subhuman conservative movements across the globe to corrupt every fucking thing is an astounding feat.
Golly, what convenient timing:
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/04/ecuador-finally-gets-tired-of-julian-assange/
The intermeshing of subhuman conservative movements across the globe to corrupt every fucking thing is an astounding feat.
Meanwhile, everyone left of center should cheer this guy’s execution if only to earn political street credit for the coming executions of the entire right wing in America.
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2019/04/11/so-about-that-avenatti-2020-thing/
Meanwhile, everyone left of center should cheer this guy’s execution if only to earn political street credit for the coming executions of the entire right wing in America.
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2019/04/11/so-about-that-avenatti-2020-thing/
John Thullen, you’ll be pleased to know that Channel 4 News has just run, as their first item, a series of those clips showing Trump talking about and praising Wikileaks, followed by the latest one (presumably today?) saying “Wikileaks? I don’t know Wikileaks, it’s not my thing.”
John Thullen, you’ll be pleased to know that Channel 4 News has just run, as their first item, a series of those clips showing Trump talking about and praising Wikileaks, followed by the latest one (presumably today?) saying “Wikileaks? I don’t know Wikileaks, it’s not my thing.”
During his impeachment trial for violating the Emoluments Clause alone, p will plead: “I know nothing about real estate or the hotel hospitality industry, it’s not my thing. I knew a guy who rented a Motel 6 room in Bayonne while he was burying bodies in Jersey, but he was loser.”
Then he’ll being excused from the Court room because he’s too infirm to undergo the stress of justice and his “attorneys” will hand him his sippy cup, and wheel him out with a blanket over his knees while they try to disentangle his oxygen feed from his saline drip tube.
Once in the limo, he’ll straighten up, toss away the gangster-on-trial accoutrements, light a cigar (filthy habit, he’ll say out of one corner of his crooked mouth as he stokes the flame) and tell his people “Piece of cake, these rubes would buy ice cream out of a dog’s asshole if the price was right, meaning extortionary. Now, get me over to Stone’s place and make it snappy. He promised to suck me off if I managed to throw them off the scent regarding this little … “difficulty”, heh heh.
Hell, if Hillary had ten percent of my deal chops, I’d hire the c#nt to run one of my side hustles. Send that loser some flowers in her cell at the penitentiary.
During his impeachment trial for violating the Emoluments Clause alone, p will plead: “I know nothing about real estate or the hotel hospitality industry, it’s not my thing. I knew a guy who rented a Motel 6 room in Bayonne while he was burying bodies in Jersey, but he was loser.”
Then he’ll being excused from the Court room because he’s too infirm to undergo the stress of justice and his “attorneys” will hand him his sippy cup, and wheel him out with a blanket over his knees while they try to disentangle his oxygen feed from his saline drip tube.
Once in the limo, he’ll straighten up, toss away the gangster-on-trial accoutrements, light a cigar (filthy habit, he’ll say out of one corner of his crooked mouth as he stokes the flame) and tell his people “Piece of cake, these rubes would buy ice cream out of a dog’s asshole if the price was right, meaning extortionary. Now, get me over to Stone’s place and make it snappy. He promised to suck me off if I managed to throw them off the scent regarding this little … “difficulty”, heh heh.
Hell, if Hillary had ten percent of my deal chops, I’d hire the c#nt to run one of my side hustles. Send that loser some flowers in her cell at the penitentiary.
But Obama wrote a book, and Al Gore flies in planes. So,
The m.o.appears to be this:
“Trump just shot someone.”
“Well, it wasn’t on 5th Ave, and besides, Obama once got a parking ticket, so why is it an issue?”
But Obama wrote a book, and Al Gore flies in planes. So,
The m.o.appears to be this:
“Trump just shot someone.”
“Well, it wasn’t on 5th Ave, and besides, Obama once got a parking ticket, so why is it an issue?”
https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2019/04/11/fox-keeps-pushing-anti-semitic-conspiracy-theory-motivated-tree-life-shooter/223423
https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2019/04/11/fox-keeps-pushing-anti-semitic-conspiracy-theory-motivated-tree-life-shooter/223423
So, Trump has a proposal that I can support.
It’s a long bus ride to here from the Mexico border, but we’ll keep the lights on for them.
So, Trump has a proposal that I can support.
It’s a long bus ride to here from the Mexico border, but we’ll keep the lights on for them.
A five conservative assholes for one Central American detainee exchange would seem fair, plus we can test the efficacy of the concertina razor wire festooning the wall at the border by coaxing … gently, with dogs, cattle prods and tear gas …. the conservatives over this side of it into Mexico as a preview of the cultural apocalypse they wax hysterical over.
It would cleanse the voting rolls as well in the sanctuary areas of the country.
A five conservative assholes for one Central American detainee exchange would seem fair, plus we can test the efficacy of the concertina razor wire festooning the wall at the border by coaxing … gently, with dogs, cattle prods and tear gas …. the conservatives over this side of it into Mexico as a preview of the cultural apocalypse they wax hysterical over.
It would cleanse the voting rolls as well in the sanctuary areas of the country.
Go directly to jail.
Throw them in with the Central American detainees. You may think I want the detainees to tear them to pieces, but I suspect the detainees, most being stellar human beings down on their luck, will make room for them, share their cots and whatever swill p’s been feeding them, which doesn’t include the milk of human kindness:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/heres-the-law-that-requires-steven-mnuchin-to-turn-over-trumps-taxes-or-lose-his-office-and-go-to-prison?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning
I need the blue dress again in all of its glory. Except this permanent stain is on America the Beautiful:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/barr-must-share-muellers-investigative-work-not-just-his-reportas-doj-did-after-its-clinton-probe?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning
Go directly to jail.
Throw them in with the Central American detainees. You may think I want the detainees to tear them to pieces, but I suspect the detainees, most being stellar human beings down on their luck, will make room for them, share their cots and whatever swill p’s been feeding them, which doesn’t include the milk of human kindness:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/heres-the-law-that-requires-steven-mnuchin-to-turn-over-trumps-taxes-or-lose-his-office-and-go-to-prison?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning
I need the blue dress again in all of its glory. Except this permanent stain is on America the Beautiful:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/barr-must-share-muellers-investigative-work-not-just-his-reportas-doj-did-after-its-clinton-probe?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning
Besides the issue at hand, first, why do conservatives have to be personally threatened, by guns, by measles, by climatic catastrophes, by threats to their gay children, to behave sanely, but also, why do people christened stupidly by their parents inevitably grow up to fulfill their very names?:
The McNutts have it. Dickens couldn’t have names this conservative any more accurately.
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2019/04/no-permit-gun-carry-bill-dead-after.html
Of course, not one conservative lifts an eyebrow when their fellow conservatives threaten the lives of moderates and liberals.
Gummint? What gummit?
Besides the issue at hand, first, why do conservatives have to be personally threatened, by guns, by measles, by climatic catastrophes, by threats to their gay children, to behave sanely, but also, why do people christened stupidly by their parents inevitably grow up to fulfill their very names?:
The McNutts have it. Dickens couldn’t have names this conservative any more accurately.
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2019/04/no-permit-gun-carry-bill-dead-after.html
Of course, not one conservative lifts an eyebrow when their fellow conservatives threaten the lives of moderates and liberals.
Gummint? What gummit?
So, Trump has a proposal that I can support.
To the extent that there’s a southern-border crisis, this would probably be a reasonably good solution, perhaps a very good solution. Also, to the extent that there’s a crisis, it is a humanitarian crisis, not one of violent gangs, drugs, terrorists, or whatever other kind of criminal threat. (That’s not to say none of those things exist at all among the people trying to cross the border, but that those things are not at a crisis level.)
So, Trump has a proposal that I can support.
To the extent that there’s a southern-border crisis, this would probably be a reasonably good solution, perhaps a very good solution. Also, to the extent that there’s a crisis, it is a humanitarian crisis, not one of violent gangs, drugs, terrorists, or whatever other kind of criminal threat. (That’s not to say none of those things exist at all among the people trying to cross the border, but that those things are not at a crisis level.)
Joel Hanes to Marty:
Frankly, I had thought better of you.
Why, Joel? Whatever led you to believe that?
Once a partisan hack, always a partisan hack.
Joel Hanes to Marty:
Frankly, I had thought better of you.
Why, Joel? Whatever led you to believe that?
Once a partisan hack, always a partisan hack.
It’s the stupid, cruelty.
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2019/04/13/the-assassination-of-congresswoman-omar-has-already-been-planned-many-times-over-and-one-of-the-white-christian-men-who-have-planned-her-assassination-will-carry-it-out/
It’s the stupid, cruelty.
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2019/04/13/the-assassination-of-congresswoman-omar-has-already-been-planned-many-times-over-and-one-of-the-white-christian-men-who-have-planned-her-assassination-will-carry-it-out/
Lat’s have at it. Bring it on, scum.
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2019/04/the-nunes-and-barr-tag-team.html
Let’s go all the way to Fort Sumter with this.
Lat’s have at it. Bring it on, scum.
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2019/04/the-nunes-and-barr-tag-team.html
Let’s go all the way to Fort Sumter with this.
Those “real people” called corporations and their votes ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$) will be protected with military-grade force from global climate change, but we fucking actual living, breathing humans around the globe will have no government working in the interest of OUR protection, because those very corporations and the vermin republican party have made it so.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/climate-chaos-is-coming-%E2%80%93-and-the-pinkertons-are-ready/ar-BBVQID3
Actual, living humans must become savagely violent in self-defense when the Pinkertons start doing to us what they did to working people who defended their rights 100 years ago.
Those “real people” called corporations and their votes ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$) will be protected with military-grade force from global climate change, but we fucking actual living, breathing humans around the globe will have no government working in the interest of OUR protection, because those very corporations and the vermin republican party have made it so.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/climate-chaos-is-coming-%E2%80%93-and-the-pinkertons-are-ready/ar-BBVQID3
Actual, living humans must become savagely violent in self-defense when the Pinkertons start doing to us what they did to working people who defended their rights 100 years ago.
“why do conservatives have to be personally threatened, by guns, by measles, by climatic catastrophes, by threats to their gay children, to behave sanely”
Not all conservatives (lookin at you wj), but it seems to be a psychological flaw having to do with lack of imagination and empathy.
It is up to us to help those poor, emotionally stunted conservatives grow to their full potential, but inflicting upon them all manner of calamity.
When Devin Nunes is lying in a filthy gutter, broke and cheated out of all of his property, hungry, unemployed, unjustly convicted of heinous crimes, slowly and painfully dying of curable yet uncured diseases, THEN we may say “our work here is done”.
Let it be so.
“why do conservatives have to be personally threatened, by guns, by measles, by climatic catastrophes, by threats to their gay children, to behave sanely”
Not all conservatives (lookin at you wj), but it seems to be a psychological flaw having to do with lack of imagination and empathy.
It is up to us to help those poor, emotionally stunted conservatives grow to their full potential, but inflicting upon them all manner of calamity.
When Devin Nunes is lying in a filthy gutter, broke and cheated out of all of his property, hungry, unemployed, unjustly convicted of heinous crimes, slowly and painfully dying of curable yet uncured diseases, THEN we may say “our work here is done”.
Let it be so.
why do conservatives have to be personally threatened, by guns, by measles, by climatic catastrophes, by threats to their gay children, to behave sanely
I’d say that most people find empathy easier when they are actually personally acquainted with the others. (As a group, not individually.) There are, certainly, some people who manage empathy even with those for whom they have no connection at all. (At least none that are apparent to the rest of us.) But they are the exception.
I suspect (on, admittedly, minimal evidence immediately to hand) that the reason that so many conservatives appear to lack empathy is that they don’t actually have any connection to lots of people outside their relatively small circle. So they don’t relate to problems which afflict others until those problems start to afflict the people that they do have connections with.
In support, note that concern over immigrants is strongest in places where there are the fewest immigrants. There is a correlation between those places and places where there are lots of conservatives. But that correlation isn’t where the causation arises. Quite conservative (not to mention relatively rural) areas where there are significant numbers of immigrants are far less worked up over immigration.
why do conservatives have to be personally threatened, by guns, by measles, by climatic catastrophes, by threats to their gay children, to behave sanely
I’d say that most people find empathy easier when they are actually personally acquainted with the others. (As a group, not individually.) There are, certainly, some people who manage empathy even with those for whom they have no connection at all. (At least none that are apparent to the rest of us.) But they are the exception.
I suspect (on, admittedly, minimal evidence immediately to hand) that the reason that so many conservatives appear to lack empathy is that they don’t actually have any connection to lots of people outside their relatively small circle. So they don’t relate to problems which afflict others until those problems start to afflict the people that they do have connections with.
In support, note that concern over immigrants is strongest in places where there are the fewest immigrants. There is a correlation between those places and places where there are lots of conservatives. But that correlation isn’t where the causation arises. Quite conservative (not to mention relatively rural) areas where there are significant numbers of immigrants are far less worked up over immigration.
I must say wj I’m with Snarki on this. I have seen it dramatically illustrated again and again: liberals and lefties as a group seem to be able to imaginatively enter into the experiences of people they don’t know, even if circumstanced very differently from themselves. Conservatives seem to find this much harder, problems have to bite them personally in the arse before they get it. (Which is, presumably, the underlying significance behind Fuck your Feelings.) It always made me laugh when McKinney used Social Justice Warrior as an insult: social justice to anybody with an ounce of empathy is so self-evidently worthwhile and to be striven for that it takes a very odd mindset indeed to twist it into a negative. And that’s another funny thing about the hypocrisy of the Christian right:,they seem to have forgotten what Jesus said in the sermon on the mount: Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you: do ye even so to them.
I must say wj I’m with Snarki on this. I have seen it dramatically illustrated again and again: liberals and lefties as a group seem to be able to imaginatively enter into the experiences of people they don’t know, even if circumstanced very differently from themselves. Conservatives seem to find this much harder, problems have to bite them personally in the arse before they get it. (Which is, presumably, the underlying significance behind Fuck your Feelings.) It always made me laugh when McKinney used Social Justice Warrior as an insult: social justice to anybody with an ounce of empathy is so self-evidently worthwhile and to be striven for that it takes a very odd mindset indeed to twist it into a negative. And that’s another funny thing about the hypocrisy of the Christian right:,they seem to have forgotten what Jesus said in the sermon on the mount: Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you: do ye even so to them.
GftNC: And this has always been understood, by all respectable politicians.
Oxymoron: a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction (e.g. respectable politicians).
🙂
GftNC: And this has always been understood, by all respectable politicians.
Oxymoron: a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction (e.g. respectable politicians).
🙂
GftNC. Jesus said a lot of things, the concept that conservatives or Christian’s lack empathy is a liberal attempt to paint everyone that disagrees with them as bad or evil.
That’s baseless bs.
GftNC. Jesus said a lot of things, the concept that conservatives or Christian’s lack empathy is a liberal attempt to paint everyone that disagrees with them as bad or evil.
That’s baseless bs.
GftNC: … they seem to have forgotten what Jesus said in the sermon on the mount: Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you: do ye even so to them.
Jesus plagiarized the sentiment; a committee supplied the translation into 17th-century English. But never mind.
And never mind whether Jesus was divine , or an itinerant Social Justice Warrior , or completely fictitious like the Angel Moroni or Sherlock Holmes. That’s for historians and archaeologists to sort out.
The thing to keep in mind is the theological illiteracy of most American Christians. “God helps those who help themselves” is believed by supermajorities of the devout to be a quote from their Holy Book, for instance. Ask the average American bible-thumper how many books the New Testament contains, or even what language this paean to their eponymous deity was written in. Go ahead, ask them.
Al Franken created Supply-Side Jesus in one of his books. Any day now, that chapter of Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them will become the 28th book of the New Standard Revised (Conservative) American edition of the New Testament, though it probably will NOT be titled “The Gospel according to Saint Alan” because why start naming the Gospels after their actual authors now?
Devotees of both He, Trump and Jesus Christ are prone to take their idols figuratively, not literally — which means, of course, creating their own private mythologies of both their Dear Leader and their Lord and Savior. Beats reading. And makes humorlessness easier to pass off as morality. And to define “morality” or “greatness” as whatever conforms to their own prejudices.
–TP
GftNC: … they seem to have forgotten what Jesus said in the sermon on the mount: Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you: do ye even so to them.
Jesus plagiarized the sentiment; a committee supplied the translation into 17th-century English. But never mind.
And never mind whether Jesus was divine , or an itinerant Social Justice Warrior , or completely fictitious like the Angel Moroni or Sherlock Holmes. That’s for historians and archaeologists to sort out.
The thing to keep in mind is the theological illiteracy of most American Christians. “God helps those who help themselves” is believed by supermajorities of the devout to be a quote from their Holy Book, for instance. Ask the average American bible-thumper how many books the New Testament contains, or even what language this paean to their eponymous deity was written in. Go ahead, ask them.
Al Franken created Supply-Side Jesus in one of his books. Any day now, that chapter of Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them will become the 28th book of the New Standard Revised (Conservative) American edition of the New Testament, though it probably will NOT be titled “The Gospel according to Saint Alan” because why start naming the Gospels after their actual authors now?
Devotees of both He, Trump and Jesus Christ are prone to take their idols figuratively, not literally — which means, of course, creating their own private mythologies of both their Dear Leader and their Lord and Savior. Beats reading. And makes humorlessness easier to pass off as morality. And to define “morality” or “greatness” as whatever conforms to their own prejudices.
–TP
Ask the average American bible-thumper how many books the New Testament contains, or even what language this paean to their eponymous deity was written in. Go ahead, ask them.
I admit I’m not certain what language the New Testament was written it. (Not least because it was written at so many different times.) For example, I would expect that Paul used either Latin or Greek.
But I am clear that the language that Jesus himself (and the 12 apostles) spoke was Aramaic. (As a rabbi, I expect he spoke Hebrew at services. But in daily life.)
Ask the average American bible-thumper how many books the New Testament contains, or even what language this paean to their eponymous deity was written in. Go ahead, ask them.
I admit I’m not certain what language the New Testament was written it. (Not least because it was written at so many different times.) For example, I would expect that Paul used either Latin or Greek.
But I am clear that the language that Jesus himself (and the 12 apostles) spoke was Aramaic. (As a rabbi, I expect he spoke Hebrew at services. But in daily life.)
Jesus said a lot of things, the concept that conservatives or Christian’s lack empathy is a liberal attempt to paint everyone that disagrees with them as bad or evil.
This is actually not true.
First, many liberals are Christian. And many Christians are liberal.
Second, when you claim an association with Jesus, you make yourself accountable to the bar he set for himself and his followers. Which is actually a pretty high bar, and not one that should be taken on lightly.
Lastly, many people who call Christians – liberal or conservative – to account are not “liberals” trying to “paint everyone who disagrees with them as evil”. Quite often they are simply calling out what appears to them to be obvious hypocrisy. Which seems, to me, to be appropriate.
Jesus did “say a lot of things”, and many of the things he said were quite challenging. Hard, even, sometimes baffling.
But a lot of what he said was quite clear.
Jesus said a lot of things, the concept that conservatives or Christian’s lack empathy is a liberal attempt to paint everyone that disagrees with them as bad or evil.
This is actually not true.
First, many liberals are Christian. And many Christians are liberal.
Second, when you claim an association with Jesus, you make yourself accountable to the bar he set for himself and his followers. Which is actually a pretty high bar, and not one that should be taken on lightly.
Lastly, many people who call Christians – liberal or conservative – to account are not “liberals” trying to “paint everyone who disagrees with them as evil”. Quite often they are simply calling out what appears to them to be obvious hypocrisy. Which seems, to me, to be appropriate.
Jesus did “say a lot of things”, and many of the things he said were quite challenging. Hard, even, sometimes baffling.
But a lot of what he said was quite clear.
My own personal favorite is the “Sermon at the Shooting Range”, where Jesus calls out the Libtards for not knowing the difference between a ‘magazine’ and a ‘clip’.
My own personal favorite is the “Sermon at the Shooting Range”, where Jesus calls out the Libtards for not knowing the difference between a ‘magazine’ and a ‘clip’.
Tony P: Yes, I am familiar with the origins of the Golden Rule. Despite the jews claiming it as their own I see from Wikipedia that the earliest known example is ancient Egyptian. I quoted Jesus as the source to emphasise the hypocrisy of those people (whatever their political leanings) who claim to be Christians, but neglect this most vital tenet of their faith. And as for the “committee who supplied the translation into 17th-century English”, I always use the wording of the Authorised Version of the King James bible when quoting Judeo-Christian scriptures, because whatever the virtues or credibility of the actual content, it is one of the great glories of English literature.
Marty: I am going by personal observation. Wealthy conservatives of my acquaintance who had been perfectly happy with the American healthcare insurance system suddenly saw its flaws when they adopted a child who turned out to have an incurable but long-term-treatable disease.
And as for us SJWs, and rightwingers’ (including your and Mckinney’s) dismissal of the concept of White Male Privilege, it takes dramatic events to people they know for some people (but generally not liberals) to understand what is happening to people different from themselves:
https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/kyle-korver-utah-jazz-nba
Tony P: Yes, I am familiar with the origins of the Golden Rule. Despite the jews claiming it as their own I see from Wikipedia that the earliest known example is ancient Egyptian. I quoted Jesus as the source to emphasise the hypocrisy of those people (whatever their political leanings) who claim to be Christians, but neglect this most vital tenet of their faith. And as for the “committee who supplied the translation into 17th-century English”, I always use the wording of the Authorised Version of the King James bible when quoting Judeo-Christian scriptures, because whatever the virtues or credibility of the actual content, it is one of the great glories of English literature.
Marty: I am going by personal observation. Wealthy conservatives of my acquaintance who had been perfectly happy with the American healthcare insurance system suddenly saw its flaws when they adopted a child who turned out to have an incurable but long-term-treatable disease.
And as for us SJWs, and rightwingers’ (including your and Mckinney’s) dismissal of the concept of White Male Privilege, it takes dramatic events to people they know for some people (but generally not liberals) to understand what is happening to people different from themselves:
https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/kyle-korver-utah-jazz-nba
State of the Union 2019:
https://youtu.be/uSsUoxlSADk
If only the AG would let us read Chicolini’s report…
State of the Union 2019:
https://youtu.be/uSsUoxlSADk
If only the AG would let us read Chicolini’s report…
Love flies out the door when money goes innuendo.
https://25iq.com/2016/01/29/a-dozen-things-i-have-learned-about-investing-and-money-from-groucho-marx/
Love flies out the door when money goes innuendo.
https://25iq.com/2016/01/29/a-dozen-things-i-have-learned-about-investing-and-money-from-groucho-marx/
My unsystematic observation is that leftists are more empathetic, but rightists give more to charity (genuine as well as fake).
Rightists feel more entitled to be rich: leftists feel more entitled to have other people pay for what they want.
Humans, don’tcha just love ’em.
My unsystematic observation is that leftists are more empathetic, but rightists give more to charity (genuine as well as fake).
Rightists feel more entitled to be rich: leftists feel more entitled to have other people pay for what they want.
Humans, don’tcha just love ’em.
We’ve been around this maypole before, many times, but I nonetheless am obliged to object.
“Charitable contributions” basically includes anything tax deductible. Some of those things fit the traditional description of charity, others less so.
“Leftists” often consider it reasonable to address social problems through public means. That may or may not, and often does not, result in a net upside to their personal bottom line. Quite often the result is not “other people” paying for what they want, but them paying for things that benefit others.
And all of that seems, to me, to fit into an argument about which side are “better people”. Which seems, to me, to be an argument that will never have a useful or satisfactory outcome.
Different people want different things. They have different understandings of what “good” even means. So any argument about what, or who, is “good” is destined to result in impasse.
It is pointless to argue about who is going to “win a race” if there is no common understanding of what the goal line is.
The only discussion to which I can imagine a useful outcome is one where all parties put what they want on the table, and then all parties negotiate to try to get enough of what they feel they need so that they can move the hell on.
A skill we seem to have lost.
We don’t all want the same things. Recognize that, and proceed from there.
We’ve been around this maypole before, many times, but I nonetheless am obliged to object.
“Charitable contributions” basically includes anything tax deductible. Some of those things fit the traditional description of charity, others less so.
“Leftists” often consider it reasonable to address social problems through public means. That may or may not, and often does not, result in a net upside to their personal bottom line. Quite often the result is not “other people” paying for what they want, but them paying for things that benefit others.
And all of that seems, to me, to fit into an argument about which side are “better people”. Which seems, to me, to be an argument that will never have a useful or satisfactory outcome.
Different people want different things. They have different understandings of what “good” even means. So any argument about what, or who, is “good” is destined to result in impasse.
It is pointless to argue about who is going to “win a race” if there is no common understanding of what the goal line is.
The only discussion to which I can imagine a useful outcome is one where all parties put what they want on the table, and then all parties negotiate to try to get enough of what they feel they need so that they can move the hell on.
A skill we seem to have lost.
We don’t all want the same things. Recognize that, and proceed from there.
The only discussion to which I can imagine a useful outcome is one where all parties put what they want on the table, and then all parties negotiate to try to get enough of what they feel they need so that they can move the hell on.
A skill we seem to have lost.
When all compromise is betrayal, and “purity tests” are all the rage, the problem isn’t that the skill has been lost. More that the inclination to even try has been lost.
The only discussion to which I can imagine a useful outcome is one where all parties put what they want on the table, and then all parties negotiate to try to get enough of what they feel they need so that they can move the hell on.
A skill we seem to have lost.
When all compromise is betrayal, and “purity tests” are all the rage, the problem isn’t that the skill has been lost. More that the inclination to even try has been lost.
Sounds very much like Brexit – two sides talking past each other.
Angrily.
Sounds very much like Brexit – two sides talking past each other.
Angrily.
Remember the good old days and the Great Compromise of 1859? No, you missed that one?
Some compromises, like modified hangout slavery, cannot be attained. Sometimes one side has to win.
The skill to negotiate to compromise is not something that is to be lost, the problem arises out of the intractability of the issue(s) at hand, and the power relationship as between the factions.
Let’s start there before we grieve the loss of the ability to compromise.
Remember the good old days and the Great Compromise of 1859? No, you missed that one?
Some compromises, like modified hangout slavery, cannot be attained. Sometimes one side has to win.
The skill to negotiate to compromise is not something that is to be lost, the problem arises out of the intractability of the issue(s) at hand, and the power relationship as between the factions.
Let’s start there before we grieve the loss of the ability to compromise.
We do, however, appear at the moment to have rather more issues where compromise is rejected than can be reasonably attributed to the inherent intractability of the issue.
Consider, just for a moment, that we have several issues, from immigration reform to gun control, where there appears to be a substantial majority (“substantial” meaning more than 2/3) of the population in agreement on roughly what should be done. But no sign that the politicians are willing to pass the legislation.
We do, however, appear at the moment to have rather more issues where compromise is rejected than can be reasonably attributed to the inherent intractability of the issue.
Consider, just for a moment, that we have several issues, from immigration reform to gun control, where there appears to be a substantial majority (“substantial” meaning more than 2/3) of the population in agreement on roughly what should be done. But no sign that the politicians are willing to pass the legislation.
Blaming “the politicians” is passing the buck to some extent. For instance, campaign money from the NRA would not be enough to bribe “the politicians” into voting against any and every gun control proposal without the concomitant threat that the NRA can mobilize the gun-fetishist faction of The People on election day.
–TP
Blaming “the politicians” is passing the buck to some extent. For instance, campaign money from the NRA would not be enough to bribe “the politicians” into voting against any and every gun control proposal without the concomitant threat that the NRA can mobilize the gun-fetishist faction of The People on election day.
–TP
It’s kind of like blaming the media for prioritizing sensational content that attracts readers/viewers/listeners. Who are the readers, viewers, and listeners?
It’s kind of like blaming the media for prioritizing sensational content that attracts readers/viewers/listeners. Who are the readers, viewers, and listeners?
It’s perfectly legitimate to put something on the table and make it clear that it is not negotiable.
It’s perfectly legitimate to put something on the table and make it clear that it is not negotiable.
We do, however, appear at the moment to have rather more issues where compromise is rejected than can be reasonably attributed to the inherent intractability of the issue.
Then something else is going on, and getting to the heart of that matter is much more important than wasting time crying tears over the “loss” of the “ability to compromise”.
We do, however, appear at the moment to have rather more issues where compromise is rejected than can be reasonably attributed to the inherent intractability of the issue.
Then something else is going on, and getting to the heart of that matter is much more important than wasting time crying tears over the “loss” of the “ability to compromise”.
We do, however, appear at the moment to have rather more issues where compromise is rejected than can be reasonably attributed to the inherent intractability of the issue.
It is very hard to strike compromises when the negotiators’ incentive is to satisfy their more extreme principals.
I remember reading that those charged with negotiating complex agreements, like union contracts for example, often felt that they, the actual negotiators, were somewhat allied in opposition to their respective principals. One result was they sounded much more hostile to their counterpart in public than in private sessions, where it was understood to be a sham. Another was that they collaborated in making the deals palatable to the other side.
Why doesn’t Congress work that way? Maybe because the negotiators – members – don’t care as much about making a sensible deal as they do about catering to the extremists.
(I cannot, however, stop myself from saying that this seems to be much more true of R’s, of whom it seems almost unanimously true, than D’s)
We do, however, appear at the moment to have rather more issues where compromise is rejected than can be reasonably attributed to the inherent intractability of the issue.
It is very hard to strike compromises when the negotiators’ incentive is to satisfy their more extreme principals.
I remember reading that those charged with negotiating complex agreements, like union contracts for example, often felt that they, the actual negotiators, were somewhat allied in opposition to their respective principals. One result was they sounded much more hostile to their counterpart in public than in private sessions, where it was understood to be a sham. Another was that they collaborated in making the deals palatable to the other side.
Why doesn’t Congress work that way? Maybe because the negotiators – members – don’t care as much about making a sensible deal as they do about catering to the extremists.
(I cannot, however, stop myself from saying that this seems to be much more true of R’s, of whom it seems almost unanimously true, than D’s)
Why doesn’t Congress work that way? Maybe because the negotiators – members – don’t care as much about making a sensible deal as they do about catering to the extremists.
I understand the hazard of confusing correlation and causation. But I observe that the ability of members of Congress to work together, regardless of party, took a nosedive when members started leaving their families home in their district, and going home every weekend.
As opposed to when they spent their evenings and weekends socializing with each other at things like PTA meetings. Then, they were actually social friends, not just media opponents.
Why doesn’t Congress work that way? Maybe because the negotiators – members – don’t care as much about making a sensible deal as they do about catering to the extremists.
I understand the hazard of confusing correlation and causation. But I observe that the ability of members of Congress to work together, regardless of party, took a nosedive when members started leaving their families home in their district, and going home every weekend.
As opposed to when they spent their evenings and weekends socializing with each other at things like PTA meetings. Then, they were actually social friends, not just media opponents.
wj, afaik there was a deliberate push by the ideological GOP leadership to stop that fraternizing with the enemy (with iirc Gingrich a driving force behind that). Private comity could bleed into political and that’s a no-no for a leadership that has made ‘no compromise’ an ‘do not take yes for an answer’ its strategic core.
wj, afaik there was a deliberate push by the ideological GOP leadership to stop that fraternizing with the enemy (with iirc Gingrich a driving force behind that). Private comity could bleed into political and that’s a no-no for a leadership that has made ‘no compromise’ an ‘do not take yes for an answer’ its strategic core.
afaik there was a deliberate push by the ideological GOP leadership to stop that fraternizing with the enemy (with iirc Gingrich a driving force behind that).
I recall something like that as well. But what made Gingrich’s push actually work was members losing the informal opportunities that accrued from being neighbors. Whether he was responsible for the change to only being in session 3 days a week, which enables the commute model, I don’t recall.
afaik there was a deliberate push by the ideological GOP leadership to stop that fraternizing with the enemy (with iirc Gingrich a driving force behind that).
I recall something like that as well. But what made Gingrich’s push actually work was members losing the informal opportunities that accrued from being neighbors. Whether he was responsible for the change to only being in session 3 days a week, which enables the commute model, I don’t recall.
It wasn’t something “like that”, it WAS THAT.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/11/newt-gingrich-says-youre-welcome/570832/
Long read, but obviously at this late date, we need to review in detail the deliberate fucking up the ass these villains planned and succeeded in imposing on the United States of America and its government and political culture.
And, yes, Gingrich, and Luntz, now working for the vermin in the White House, instituted the 3-day sessions per week.
Not only would conservative radicals not fraternize with the enemy, they would sleep in their offices and bunk like cadres together in their man caves shielded from the “corrupting” influence of Washington D. C. across the aisle, read now, chasm.
Their wives and children stayed at home in their districts rather than move to Washington D.C. so as to avoid the “herpes” of rubbing shoulders with liberal “democrat” wives and children.
Gingrich and his smooth-talking Rasputin .. Luntz along with the rest of the leaders of the malign conservative movement, now metastasizing around the globe, see Brazil, see Israel, see Russia, see Hungary all adopting Gingrich’s and now p’s turnkey methods….. are the architects of today’s utterly dysfunctional, uncivil, crippled government catastrophe, except of course for its martial, fascist, repressive functions.
p, of course, being the apotheosis, but these filth have even worse in the hopper for us.
Gingrich models his machinations on the viciousness of the animal kingdom, read the link, that’s out of his own rancid mouth. And the “religious” cocksuckers are full in with the republicans and p and their ruthless, messianic, animalistic red in tooth and claw power struggles.
You know what happens in the animal kingdom, where dominance dominates.
They fucking kill each other.
Just so.
Let’s get to it.
How many sequels of this morphing catastrophe do we need:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_L5kzBNFAFs
It wasn’t something “like that”, it WAS THAT.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/11/newt-gingrich-says-youre-welcome/570832/
Long read, but obviously at this late date, we need to review in detail the deliberate fucking up the ass these villains planned and succeeded in imposing on the United States of America and its government and political culture.
And, yes, Gingrich, and Luntz, now working for the vermin in the White House, instituted the 3-day sessions per week.
Not only would conservative radicals not fraternize with the enemy, they would sleep in their offices and bunk like cadres together in their man caves shielded from the “corrupting” influence of Washington D. C. across the aisle, read now, chasm.
Their wives and children stayed at home in their districts rather than move to Washington D.C. so as to avoid the “herpes” of rubbing shoulders with liberal “democrat” wives and children.
Gingrich and his smooth-talking Rasputin .. Luntz along with the rest of the leaders of the malign conservative movement, now metastasizing around the globe, see Brazil, see Israel, see Russia, see Hungary all adopting Gingrich’s and now p’s turnkey methods….. are the architects of today’s utterly dysfunctional, uncivil, crippled government catastrophe, except of course for its martial, fascist, repressive functions.
p, of course, being the apotheosis, but these filth have even worse in the hopper for us.
Gingrich models his machinations on the viciousness of the animal kingdom, read the link, that’s out of his own rancid mouth. And the “religious” cocksuckers are full in with the republicans and p and their ruthless, messianic, animalistic red in tooth and claw power struggles.
You know what happens in the animal kingdom, where dominance dominates.
They fucking kill each other.
Just so.
Let’s get to it.
How many sequels of this morphing catastrophe do we need:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_L5kzBNFAFs
Wonder what would happen if the Speaker of the House were to simply reinstitute sessions 5 days a week….
Just a thought.
Wonder what would happen if the Speaker of the House were to simply reinstitute sessions 5 days a week….
Just a thought.
Nothing.
It’d just be rouge on the corpse of yet another American institution.
Nothing.
It’d just be rouge on the corpse of yet another American institution.
Well maybe. On the other hand, it might drag members back to living, with their families, in the area. (At least for those outside the east coast.) Could be worth a try.
Might also make Congress more productive. A mixed blessing, perhaps, but….
Well maybe. On the other hand, it might drag members back to living, with their families, in the area. (At least for those outside the east coast.) Could be worth a try.
Might also make Congress more productive. A mixed blessing, perhaps, but….
IIRC, in Pelosi’s previous turn as Speaker, a “5 day workweek” WAS instituted.
And there was much GOP whining. Eventually stifled because “shut up, you overpaid lazy slackers” eventually had an effect.
IIRC, in Pelosi’s previous turn as Speaker, a “5 day workweek” WAS instituted.
And there was much GOP whining. Eventually stifled because “shut up, you overpaid lazy slackers” eventually had an effect.
Does anyone happen to know if the previous change resulted in some of the members going back to moving their families to DC? Or had the new “normal” settled in.
Does anyone happen to know if the previous change resulted in some of the members going back to moving their families to DC? Or had the new “normal” settled in.
I think they called Pelosi a Stalinist for the additional forced workload.
Paul Ryan flew home every weekend on my ticket.
Good riddance.
I think they called Pelosi a Stalinist for the additional forced workload.
Paul Ryan flew home every weekend on my ticket.
Good riddance.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/tennessees-gop-house-passes-bill-targeting-voter-registration-drives
This sort of thing from the usual suspects trying to stifle the voting franchise is why this might be disturbing news:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/nra-sues-nratv-oliver-north-grift-lawsuit
I don’t want the NRA to go broke and out of business just yet, though in good savage time, my pretties, while we still need the military-grade weaponry they make it possible for us to own to defend ourselves against Tennesseee republicans, not to mention the rest of this monstrosity.
But, meanwhile, popcorn. Hold the butter.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/tennessees-gop-house-passes-bill-targeting-voter-registration-drives
This sort of thing from the usual suspects trying to stifle the voting franchise is why this might be disturbing news:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/nra-sues-nratv-oliver-north-grift-lawsuit
I don’t want the NRA to go broke and out of business just yet, though in good savage time, my pretties, while we still need the military-grade weaponry they make it possible for us to own to defend ourselves against Tennesseee republicans, not to mention the rest of this monstrosity.
But, meanwhile, popcorn. Hold the butter.
https://www.justsecurity.org/63660/is-trump-a-russian-agent-explaining-terms-of-art-and-examining-the-facts/
via Cheryl Rofer at BJ
https://www.justsecurity.org/63660/is-trump-a-russian-agent-explaining-terms-of-art-and-examining-the-facts/
via Cheryl Rofer at BJ
https://washingtonmonthly.com/2019/04/16/the-tax-day-outrage-you-dont-know-about/
It’s the first cent of tax, not the high marginal dollar, I pay to ANY Republican government that makes me want to relieve myself on the tree of liberty.
Don’t govern me, or else!
https://washingtonmonthly.com/2019/04/16/the-tax-day-outrage-you-dont-know-about/
It’s the first cent of tax, not the high marginal dollar, I pay to ANY Republican government that makes me want to relieve myself on the tree of liberty.
Don’t govern me, or else!
The campaign theme song will be “All the Girls I’ve Molested Before”, a knock-off of the old Iglesias/Nelson gagger.
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2019/04/alabama-republicans-still-love-judge.html
The campaign theme song will be “All the Girls I’ve Molested Before”, a knock-off of the old Iglesias/Nelson gagger.
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2019/04/alabama-republicans-still-love-judge.html
About “tax reform”:
Just filed my tax returns for 2018. All-new Form 1040 is a hoot. “Your tax return on a postcard” my aunt Fanny. They reduced the 1040 to about half the page on each side of a normal sheet of paper (a 2-sided postcard, I guess) by moving a bunch of items onto separate “schedules”.
I had to calculate my sole-prop income on “Schedule C” as usual, but then I had to transcribe it into the new “Schedule 1” before entering it into the “postcard”. I had to calculate my self-employment tax on “Schedule SE” as usual, but then I had to transcribe it into the new “Schedule 4” before entering it into the “postcard”. I had to file the new “Schedule 5” just to report a single number: the amount of my 2017 refund that I left in care of the IRS to be applied to my 2018 taxes; that used to be a single line on the old 1040 but I guess they had no room for it on the new, improved “postcard” version.
Such is the comedy resulting from long-standing GOP talking points. Actually, what’s even funnier is how many Americans who can tie their own shoes fall for this kind of joke.
–TP
About “tax reform”:
Just filed my tax returns for 2018. All-new Form 1040 is a hoot. “Your tax return on a postcard” my aunt Fanny. They reduced the 1040 to about half the page on each side of a normal sheet of paper (a 2-sided postcard, I guess) by moving a bunch of items onto separate “schedules”.
I had to calculate my sole-prop income on “Schedule C” as usual, but then I had to transcribe it into the new “Schedule 1” before entering it into the “postcard”. I had to calculate my self-employment tax on “Schedule SE” as usual, but then I had to transcribe it into the new “Schedule 4” before entering it into the “postcard”. I had to file the new “Schedule 5” just to report a single number: the amount of my 2017 refund that I left in care of the IRS to be applied to my 2018 taxes; that used to be a single line on the old 1040 but I guess they had no room for it on the new, improved “postcard” version.
Such is the comedy resulting from long-standing GOP talking points. Actually, what’s even funnier is how many Americans who can tie their own shoes fall for this kind of joke.
–TP
The prospect of running against Moore again might be just about the best news Senator Jones could hope for. There’s a temptation to say “They couldn’t possibly be dumb enough to nominate Moore again!” But the evidence is pretty clear that they could.
The prospect of running against Moore again might be just about the best news Senator Jones could hope for. There’s a temptation to say “They couldn’t possibly be dumb enough to nominate Moore again!” But the evidence is pretty clear that they could.
wj, cynic that I am I fear it might even work. Outrage fatigue (‘old news’) on one side and extra mobilisation on the other in order not to lose the senate. Plus some investment in a finely targeted ‘Jones too conservative’ campaign to deter just enough young Democrats from voting.
A different GOPster would mean new risks (and thus interesting ones to the media unlike the boring old ones about Moore).
wj, cynic that I am I fear it might even work. Outrage fatigue (‘old news’) on one side and extra mobilisation on the other in order not to lose the senate. Plus some investment in a finely targeted ‘Jones too conservative’ campaign to deter just enough young Democrats from voting.
A different GOPster would mean new risks (and thus interesting ones to the media unlike the boring old ones about Moore).
I’m considering changing my voter registration to the R side, forgive me, so I can vote for Bill Weld in the primary in 2020 and then of course go full ticket D in the general.
If Mussolini runs too against p in the primary, maybe I’ll vote for the former instead, since he’s already in the qualifying state that I prefer republican politicians: Dead.
I’m considering changing my voter registration to the R side, forgive me, so I can vote for Bill Weld in the primary in 2020 and then of course go full ticket D in the general.
If Mussolini runs too against p in the primary, maybe I’ll vote for the former instead, since he’s already in the qualifying state that I prefer republican politicians: Dead.
Tony P. new, improved “postcard” version.
The demographic that actually knows what a “postcard” is declines inexorably.
Soon you’d have to say “it’s like a tweet, but on a dead tree”. Later you’d have to explain what a ‘tree’ is.
Tony P. new, improved “postcard” version.
The demographic that actually knows what a “postcard” is declines inexorably.
Soon you’d have to say “it’s like a tweet, but on a dead tree”. Later you’d have to explain what a ‘tree’ is.
So, this is happening in my hometown as we breath:
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2019/04/the-armed-citizen
So, this is happening in my hometown as we breath:
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2019/04/the-armed-citizen
Did he or did he not cut down the cherry tree?
He did, he did:
https://juanitajean.com/uh-oh-they-told-the-truth/
Cue the death threats from the conservative George Washington cultists.
The timbers in the structure of American democracy have become dry flammable tinder a la Notre Dame and p is soaking them in gasoline so when it goes, it will be gone in one catastrophic sun-hot catastrophe.
Anyone got a match?
Did he or did he not cut down the cherry tree?
He did, he did:
https://juanitajean.com/uh-oh-they-told-the-truth/
Cue the death threats from the conservative George Washington cultists.
The timbers in the structure of American democracy have become dry flammable tinder a la Notre Dame and p is soaking them in gasoline so when it goes, it will be gone in one catastrophic sun-hot catastrophe.
Anyone got a match?
Someone on twitter had the rather splendid idea of having Barr redact the opening of A Tale of Two Cities….
“It was the best of times,(redacted…) it was the age of wisdom, (redacted…) it was the epoch of belief, (redacted…), it was the season of Light, (redacted…), it was the spring of hope, (redacted…), we had everything before us, (redacted…) we were all going direct to Heaven, (redacted…) – in short, the period was (redacted….) superlative …”
Someone on twitter had the rather splendid idea of having Barr redact the opening of A Tale of Two Cities….
“It was the best of times,(redacted…) it was the age of wisdom, (redacted…) it was the epoch of belief, (redacted…), it was the season of Light, (redacted…), it was the spring of hope, (redacted…), we had everything before us, (redacted…) we were all going direct to Heaven, (redacted…) – in short, the period was (redacted….) superlative …”
Kudlowian, that!
“Oh, say, can you (redacted)?
Kudlowian, that!
“Oh, say, can you (redacted)?
https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-and-co-are-crossing-big-bright-red-linesand-theyre-getting-away-with-it?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning
https://www.thedailybeast.com/mueller-report-is-pure-mischief-trumps-former-lawyer-john-dowd-says?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning
My suggestion is to fly in airborne tankers full of flammable liquids and dump them on the White House and Capitol Hill to extinguish the smoldering dumpster fire rot of the corrupt, malign conservative movement.
Alternatively, we could scrap the faulty software, install new code and algorithms, and rebrand and rename the country before it plunges nose first to its death, killing everyone on board.
The dupes, the grifters won’t know, or care, if packaged properly. It’s all presentation, is all, right?
America sucks its own d888!
https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-and-co-are-crossing-big-bright-red-linesand-theyre-getting-away-with-it?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning
https://www.thedailybeast.com/mueller-report-is-pure-mischief-trumps-former-lawyer-john-dowd-says?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning
My suggestion is to fly in airborne tankers full of flammable liquids and dump them on the White House and Capitol Hill to extinguish the smoldering dumpster fire rot of the corrupt, malign conservative movement.
Alternatively, we could scrap the faulty software, install new code and algorithms, and rebrand and rename the country before it plunges nose first to its death, killing everyone on board.
The dupes, the grifters won’t know, or care, if packaged properly. It’s all presentation, is all, right?
America sucks its own d888!
Oh my effing God:
https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2019/04/17/fox-guest-ken-starr-questions-whether-full-mueller-report-can-be-fair-and-balanced-because-muellers/223479
Starr co-conspirator Kavanaugh is quickly gathering every blue dress worn by his female classmates and assault victims and putting them thru an industrial spin cycle.
Out, damned spot!
Here, try some club soda.
If that doesn’t work, drop a nuclear warhead on the conservative movement.
Clean it up.
Subhumans.
Oh my effing God:
https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2019/04/17/fox-guest-ken-starr-questions-whether-full-mueller-report-can-be-fair-and-balanced-because-muellers/223479
Starr co-conspirator Kavanaugh is quickly gathering every blue dress worn by his female classmates and assault victims and putting them thru an industrial spin cycle.
Out, damned spot!
Here, try some club soda.
If that doesn’t work, drop a nuclear warhead on the conservative movement.
Clean it up.
Subhumans.
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2019/04/fox-news-obama-bizarroworld.html
There will be blood.
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2019/04/fox-news-obama-bizarroworld.html
There will be blood.
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2019/04/fox-news-obama-bizarroworld.html
There will be blood
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2019/04/fox-news-obama-bizarroworld.html
There will be blood
Alger Hiss and the Rosenbergs have got to feel …. superceded:
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2019/04/trump-has-sympathy-for-russian.html
All my life, fucking conservatives have accused everyone to the left of Barry Goldwater and Joe McCarthy of doing the work of the commie Russkies.
There was always some fat right wing vermin and his pals at school board meetings, city council meetings, in the letters to the editors sections of the daily paper accusing perfectly innocent citizens of doing the work of the worldwide commie movement by advocating for revising school textbooks, fluoridating water, raising mill levees by .001 cent to finance public libraries, putting in crosswalks at busy intersections, pick yer poison.
But now, and for the next 65 years all conservatives and republicans in this country will be suspects, hiding under every bed, subverting western civilization, taxing me even one fucking cent, you will be harassed, surveilled, phonetapped, blackballed, your FBI gummint files thickening every year with incriminating data regarding your aiding and abetting of the most flagrant example of treason in U.S. history, your sympathy with the Russian devil duly noted in your curriculum vitaes, your reading material tracked, your internet activity red-flagged, you are going to live the life.
It’ll be great, just like the fun you dumb lot have had over the past 65 years fucking your fellow citizens over.
Start looking over your shoulders now. Keep low profiles. Watch what you say and write.
We’re on to you. We are watching you.
We will turn your children and grandchildren against you, traitors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF4zuNzEaxU
Alger Hiss and the Rosenbergs have got to feel …. superceded:
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2019/04/trump-has-sympathy-for-russian.html
All my life, fucking conservatives have accused everyone to the left of Barry Goldwater and Joe McCarthy of doing the work of the commie Russkies.
There was always some fat right wing vermin and his pals at school board meetings, city council meetings, in the letters to the editors sections of the daily paper accusing perfectly innocent citizens of doing the work of the worldwide commie movement by advocating for revising school textbooks, fluoridating water, raising mill levees by .001 cent to finance public libraries, putting in crosswalks at busy intersections, pick yer poison.
But now, and for the next 65 years all conservatives and republicans in this country will be suspects, hiding under every bed, subverting western civilization, taxing me even one fucking cent, you will be harassed, surveilled, phonetapped, blackballed, your FBI gummint files thickening every year with incriminating data regarding your aiding and abetting of the most flagrant example of treason in U.S. history, your sympathy with the Russian devil duly noted in your curriculum vitaes, your reading material tracked, your internet activity red-flagged, you are going to live the life.
It’ll be great, just like the fun you dumb lot have had over the past 65 years fucking your fellow citizens over.
Start looking over your shoulders now. Keep low profiles. Watch what you say and write.
We’re on to you. We are watching you.
We will turn your children and grandchildren against you, traitors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF4zuNzEaxU
A segment of a powerful TED talk by Carole Cadwalladr, calling Zuckerberg, Sandberg, Brin, Page, Dorsey et al (by name) to account for the subversion of democracy which they have enabled, and asking them if this is how they want to be remembered, on the wrong side of history and as the “handmaidens of authoritarianism”.
https://twitter.com/TEDTalks/status/1118280949991714817
A segment of a powerful TED talk by Carole Cadwalladr, calling Zuckerberg, Sandberg, Brin, Page, Dorsey et al (by name) to account for the subversion of democracy which they have enabled, and asking them if this is how they want to be remembered, on the wrong side of history and as the “handmaidens of authoritarianism”.
https://twitter.com/TEDTalks/status/1118280949991714817
All my life, fucking conservatives have accused everyone to the left of Barry Goldwater and Joe McCarthy of doing the work of the commie Russkies.
Ah, but the accused back then were mostly Baby Boomers. AKA hippy wierdos. Who are now the elderly backbone of the conservative movement. Same people. Same support for Russia.
See, nothing really changes. It just seems like it did. 😉
All my life, fucking conservatives have accused everyone to the left of Barry Goldwater and Joe McCarthy of doing the work of the commie Russkies.
Ah, but the accused back then were mostly Baby Boomers. AKA hippy wierdos. Who are now the elderly backbone of the conservative movement. Same people. Same support for Russia.
See, nothing really changes. It just seems like it did. 😉
Ah, but the accused back then were mostly Baby Boomers.
Silent generation. Trump was conceived prior to the end of WWII. Doesn’t count as a baby boomer, and neither does anyone his age or older.
Plenty of Baby Boomers are Republican jerks, but don’t confuse the issue.
Ah, but the accused back then were mostly Baby Boomers.
Silent generation. Trump was conceived prior to the end of WWII. Doesn’t count as a baby boomer, and neither does anyone his age or older.
Plenty of Baby Boomers are Republican jerks, but don’t confuse the issue.
Trump was conceived prior to the end of WWII.
Must have been a long pregnancy. He was born about nine and one-half months after the end of WWII.
Trump was conceived prior to the end of WWII.
Must have been a long pregnancy. He was born about nine and one-half months after the end of WWII.
Must have been a long pregnancy. He was born about nine and one-half months after the end of WWII.
Normal pregnancy in other words.
Must have been a long pregnancy. He was born about nine and one-half months after the end of WWII.
Normal pregnancy in other words.
See Bannon’s new Eagle’s Nest in Kilgore’s embedded twitter feed here:
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2019/04/18/late-night-open-thread-depth-of-the-gop-field/
I’ll bet the security ain’t so good.
The world should too.
See Bannon’s new Eagle’s Nest in Kilgore’s embedded twitter feed here:
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2019/04/18/late-night-open-thread-depth-of-the-gop-field/
I’ll bet the security ain’t so good.
The world should too.
The radio in my office is on very thin ice right now, with Barr’s words emanating from it and causing my adrenaline to spike.
The radio in my office is on very thin ice right now, with Barr’s words emanating from it and causing my adrenaline to spike.
p refuses to testify under oath to his “total innocence”.
America is the charred spire of Notre Dam.
p refuses to testify under oath to his “total innocence”.
America is the charred spire of Notre Dam.
Dame, not a female goat.
Damn.
Dame, not a female goat.
Damn.
Reporter: Is it improper for you to attempt to spin the report before anyone has read it?
Barr: “No”
Reporter: Is it improper for you to attempt to spin the report before anyone has read it?
Barr: “No”
Everyone was being super mean to the president, but he was really, really cooperative, anyway, even though people were trying to undermine him the whole time. Profile in courage.
Everyone was being super mean to the president, but he was really, really cooperative, anyway, even though people were trying to undermine him the whole time. Profile in courage.
Curious that he was so unwilling to testify about his complete innocence under oath.
Curious that he was so unwilling to testify about his complete innocence under oath.
The big baby was frustrated. You do things when you are frustrated.
I get it.
Stalin was frustrated with the Ukraine.
The Saudis with al Khashoggi.
The Jews drove Hitler to drink.
Savonarola was such a thorn in the side that frustrated popes hung him, and then, to totally relieve their anxiety, burned him in a fit of pique.
All of those four-eyed Cambodians made Pol Pot myopic.
Larry Fine and brother Curly caused Moe Howard to come up with the Moe-slap and the eye poke. Put yourself in his place, especially if you need a sight gag.
Think how locks and combination safes have thwarted bank robbers into tunneling, wearing masks, and pistol-whipping bank tellers thru the ages.
Yoko. Nuf said.
I need to start breaking the law in big, big ways to take advantage of this beautiful window of opportunity as the Rule of Law is suspended.
Umbrella manufacturers need to start dipping the points of the things in polonium and Novichok right as a factory-setting.
The big baby was frustrated. You do things when you are frustrated.
I get it.
Stalin was frustrated with the Ukraine.
The Saudis with al Khashoggi.
The Jews drove Hitler to drink.
Savonarola was such a thorn in the side that frustrated popes hung him, and then, to totally relieve their anxiety, burned him in a fit of pique.
All of those four-eyed Cambodians made Pol Pot myopic.
Larry Fine and brother Curly caused Moe Howard to come up with the Moe-slap and the eye poke. Put yourself in his place, especially if you need a sight gag.
Think how locks and combination safes have thwarted bank robbers into tunneling, wearing masks, and pistol-whipping bank tellers thru the ages.
Yoko. Nuf said.
I need to start breaking the law in big, big ways to take advantage of this beautiful window of opportunity as the Rule of Law is suspended.
Umbrella manufacturers need to start dipping the points of the things in polonium and Novichok right as a factory-setting.
https://juanitajean.com/uh/
Today is like the scene in “The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance” when Liberty’s snide little prairie scum adjutant, played by Strother Martin slits the John Wayne character’s throat just before the latter can shoot Liberty dead in the street like the dog he is, and then Liberty, in celebration, carves his initials in Jimmy Stewart’s forehead, has his gang bang Vera Miles, and then convenes the new “acting” city council to introduce “reforms” into the city charter, and that’s how the West was won, little doggies.
Next up, we remake “High Noon”, in which Gary Cooper, playing the deserted Sheriff, throws in his lot with the cowardly townspeople, tosses his badge into the dust, marches over to the saloon, watering trough, bughouse, shebang, cantina, grogshop, and gin mill and dresses up like a saloon girl and awaits the bad guys entry into town with his skirts hiked up and his lips in the whistling position. Just blow.
Kill America.
https://juanitajean.com/uh/
Today is like the scene in “The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance” when Liberty’s snide little prairie scum adjutant, played by Strother Martin slits the John Wayne character’s throat just before the latter can shoot Liberty dead in the street like the dog he is, and then Liberty, in celebration, carves his initials in Jimmy Stewart’s forehead, has his gang bang Vera Miles, and then convenes the new “acting” city council to introduce “reforms” into the city charter, and that’s how the West was won, little doggies.
Next up, we remake “High Noon”, in which Gary Cooper, playing the deserted Sheriff, throws in his lot with the cowardly townspeople, tosses his badge into the dust, marches over to the saloon, watering trough, bughouse, shebang, cantina, grogshop, and gin mill and dresses up like a saloon girl and awaits the bad guys entry into town with his skirts hiked up and his lips in the whistling position. Just blow.
Kill America.
“The investigation also identified numerous links between the Russian government and the Trump Campaign. Although the investigation established that the Russian government perceived it would benefit from a Trump presidency and worked to secure that outcome, and that the Campaign expected it would benefit electorally from information stolen and released through Russian efforts, the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.”
the italicized part is what Barr quoted.
“The investigation also identified numerous links between the Russian government and the Trump Campaign. Although the investigation established that the Russian government perceived it would benefit from a Trump presidency and worked to secure that outcome, and that the Campaign expected it would benefit electorally from information stolen and released through Russian efforts, the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.”
the italicized part is what Barr quoted.
At least we’ve narrowed the case down to the correct field of medicine, given the patient:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/conway-mueller-probe-political-proctology-exam-on-trump
Then what has been causing this explosive diarrhea of lies, obstruction and threats from this lout and his fellow filth for the past three years?
There’s a mass visible up there on the scan and rectal bleeding from the Republican Party’s large corrupted bowel.
I don’t think dietary changes are going to prevent the tumor from metastasizing to the entire body politic.
At least we’ve narrowed the case down to the correct field of medicine, given the patient:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/conway-mueller-probe-political-proctology-exam-on-trump
Then what has been causing this explosive diarrhea of lies, obstruction and threats from this lout and his fellow filth for the past three years?
There’s a mass visible up there on the scan and rectal bleeding from the Republican Party’s large corrupted bowel.
I don’t think dietary changes are going to prevent the tumor from metastasizing to the entire body politic.
At least we’ve narrowed the case down to the correct field of medicine, given the patient:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/conway-mueller-probe-political-proctology-exam-on-trump
Then what has been causing this explosive diarrhea of lies, obstruction and threats from this lout and his fellow filth for the past three years?
There’s a mass visible up there on the scan and rectal bleeding from the Republican Party’s large corrupted bowel.
I don’t think dietary changes are going to prevent the tumor from metastasizing to the entire body politic.
At least we’ve narrowed the case down to the correct field of medicine, given the patient:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/conway-mueller-probe-political-proctology-exam-on-trump
Then what has been causing this explosive diarrhea of lies, obstruction and threats from this lout and his fellow filth for the past three years?
There’s a mass visible up there on the scan and rectal bleeding from the Republican Party’s large corrupted bowel.
I don’t think dietary changes are going to prevent the tumor from metastasizing to the entire body politic.
Try to redact reality and we’ll kill the redactors:
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/04/mueller-found-corrupt-intent-repeatedly-in-donald-trumps-actions-toward-the-russia-investigation/
Try to redact reality and we’ll kill the redactors:
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/04/mueller-found-corrupt-intent-repeatedly-in-donald-trumps-actions-toward-the-russia-investigation/