502 thoughts on “OMG Open Thread”

  11. I love hockey.
    Hockey will break your teeth. And ankles. Collarbone. Nose fer sure.
    But your beer stays colder longer.

  12. I love hockey.
    Hockey will break your teeth. And ankles. Collarbone. Nose fer sure.
    But your beer stays colder longer.

  13. This afternoon was the third time since June 1 where we got enough rain that I was willing to hit the rain delay on the sprinklers. Lots of the Denver metro area around us has been hammered repeatedly, but it’s been a long dry disappointing monsoon at the Cain household.

  14. This afternoon was the third time since June 1 where we got enough rain that I was willing to hit the rain delay on the sprinklers. Lots of the Denver metro area around us has been hammered repeatedly, but it’s been a long dry disappointing monsoon at the Cain household.

  19. Oh, Mr. Gallagher, Oh, Mr. Gallagher,
    What’s the name of the game they play upon the links?
    With a stick you knock the ball
    Where you can’t find it at all,
    And the caddie walks around and thinks and thinks.
    Oh, Mr. Sheen, Oh, Mr. Sheen,
    You can’t even tell a divot from a green!
    For it’s very plain to see,
    (both) Yes it’s very plain to see
    -That it’s croquet, Mr. Gallagher.
    -No it’s tennis, Mr. Sheen!

  20. Oh, Mr. Gallagher, Oh, Mr. Gallagher,
    What’s the name of the game they play upon the links?
    With a stick you knock the ball
    Where you can’t find it at all,
    And the caddie walks around and thinks and thinks.
    Oh, Mr. Sheen, Oh, Mr. Sheen,
    You can’t even tell a divot from a green!
    For it’s very plain to see,
    (both) Yes it’s very plain to see
    -That it’s croquet, Mr. Gallagher.
    -No it’s tennis, Mr. Sheen!

  21. …with weapons singularly ill-designed for the purpose…
    Stipulating the task at hand — propel a small ball lying on the ground a significant distance in a particular direction — contemporary golf clubs are exquisitely well suited to the job. Almost anyone can learn to hit the ball 150 yards with one of them.
    Compare it to driving a motorcycle: handlebars (of use only at low speeds), a clutch operated in one hand, a gear shift mechanism operated with one foot, a throttle and front brake operated with the other hand, and a rear brake operated with the other foot. Ill-suited for driving? Again, almost anyone can learn to do it.
    Both better regarded as demonstrations of the human brain’s fantastic adaptability to tools of any sort.

  22. …with weapons singularly ill-designed for the purpose…
    Stipulating the task at hand — propel a small ball lying on the ground a significant distance in a particular direction — contemporary golf clubs are exquisitely well suited to the job. Almost anyone can learn to hit the ball 150 yards with one of them.
    Compare it to driving a motorcycle: handlebars (of use only at low speeds), a clutch operated in one hand, a gear shift mechanism operated with one foot, a throttle and front brake operated with the other hand, and a rear brake operated with the other foot. Ill-suited for driving? Again, almost anyone can learn to do it.
    Both better regarded as demonstrations of the human brain’s fantastic adaptability to tools of any sort.

  23. To Pete:
    I lost the vision in one eye to baseball at age eleven.
    I’m still playing center field.
    Now, like Quint in “Jaws”, show me your shark bite scars.

  24. To Pete:
    I lost the vision in one eye to baseball at age eleven.
    I’m still playing center field.
    Now, like Quint in “Jaws”, show me your shark bite scars.

  25. My jaundiced view of golf is doubtless influenced by having almost been killed by a golf ball.** It’s the kind of experience that makes a serious impression.
    ** Landing a small aircraft, solo. Approach over a golf course (which is not uncommon, since people hate planes landing just over their roof.) Guy on the driving range skys one. Ball thru the prop unscathed, thru the windscreen, and only a fast head jerk saves my eye — but it took off the headphones and my glasses. If I hadn’t move fast, it would have been ugly.

  26. My jaundiced view of golf is doubtless influenced by having almost been killed by a golf ball.** It’s the kind of experience that makes a serious impression.
    ** Landing a small aircraft, solo. Approach over a golf course (which is not uncommon, since people hate planes landing just over their roof.) Guy on the driving range skys one. Ball thru the prop unscathed, thru the windscreen, and only a fast head jerk saves my eye — but it took off the headphones and my glasses. If I hadn’t move fast, it would have been ugly.

  31. wj, that’s one of the best golf stories I’ve ever heard.
    Glad you didn’t do a nose plant in the water hazard.

  32. wj, that’s one of the best golf stories I’ve ever heard.
    Glad you didn’t do a nose plant in the water hazard.

  35. Ball thru the prop unscathed, thru the windscreen, and only a fast head jerk saves my eye — but it took off the headphones and my glasses.
    Amazing. Did you make the news?

  36. Ball thru the prop unscathed, thru the windscreen, and only a fast head jerk saves my eye — but it took off the headphones and my glasses.
    Amazing. Did you make the news?

  39. Did you make the news?
    Nope. It was back in the 1980s, when the 24 hour news cycle wasn’t quite so hungry for stories.
    All that happened was, after I told the tower I was doing a full stop (I had been doing touch-and-goes) and caught my breath, I taxied around to the flying school. Where I was mostly worried that they would be charging me for a replacement windshield. (Honest! That was the top thought in my mind.) I figured out later that they were mostly worried that I might sue them — heaven knows on what basis. We both got off without financial damage.

  40. Did you make the news?
    Nope. It was back in the 1980s, when the 24 hour news cycle wasn’t quite so hungry for stories.
    All that happened was, after I told the tower I was doing a full stop (I had been doing touch-and-goes) and caught my breath, I taxied around to the flying school. Where I was mostly worried that they would be charging me for a replacement windshield. (Honest! That was the top thought in my mind.) I figured out later that they were mostly worried that I might sue them — heaven knows on what basis. We both got off without financial damage.

  41. On July 3rd, 1984, an airplane on a training flight over a golf course was struck by a golf ball. But that was in Melbourne, Australia and the ball only dented the metalwork. 🙂

  42. On July 3rd, 1984, an airplane on a training flight over a golf course was struck by a golf ball. But that was in Melbourne, Australia and the ball only dented the metalwork. 🙂

  43. I was going to post a link to something about a political group I like,the DSA, but this seems to be a golf thread and so I am back to my usual negativity. I hate golf. Golf courses are pretty though, and “ Tin Cup” was a good movie, almost as good as “ Bull Durham”.

  44. I was going to post a link to something about a political group I like,the DSA, but this seems to be a golf thread and so I am back to my usual negativity. I hate golf. Golf courses are pretty though, and “ Tin Cup” was a good movie, almost as good as “ Bull Durham”.

  49. This is good to know:

    One of the clauses that he cites as objectionable, Section 1233, expresses “the sense of Congress” that the U.S. “should support a Europe whole, free, and at peace” through strengthening such institutions as NATO and the European Union and that it should adopt policies to defeat Russian aggression.
    A “sense of Congress” resolution explicitly has no binding authority whatsoever; it merely expresses an opinion. By definition, it cannot interfere with a president’s authority to conduct foreign policy. But apparently Trump’s hostility to NATO and the EU runs so deep that he couldn’t let this stand even as a token gesture.

    It’s not even a mandate (although there are apparently a bunch of those that he proposes to ignore. It’s just a Goddamn Sense of Congress statement! But apparently supporting our allies instead of Russia (he also objected to the provision mandating that we do nothing to accept Russia’s annexation of Crimea) is too much for Trump.

  50. This is good to know:

    One of the clauses that he cites as objectionable, Section 1233, expresses “the sense of Congress” that the U.S. “should support a Europe whole, free, and at peace” through strengthening such institutions as NATO and the European Union and that it should adopt policies to defeat Russian aggression.
    A “sense of Congress” resolution explicitly has no binding authority whatsoever; it merely expresses an opinion. By definition, it cannot interfere with a president’s authority to conduct foreign policy. But apparently Trump’s hostility to NATO and the EU runs so deep that he couldn’t let this stand even as a token gesture.

    It’s not even a mandate (although there are apparently a bunch of those that he proposes to ignore. It’s just a Goddamn Sense of Congress statement! But apparently supporting our allies instead of Russia (he also objected to the provision mandating that we do nothing to accept Russia’s annexation of Crimea) is too much for Trump.

  51. Oh no, Aretha. It’s so sad. Soon after that performance, more than one person sent me the same link the Count posted saying they had watched it with tears of joy and exhilaration.

  52. Oh no, Aretha. It’s so sad. Soon after that performance, more than one person sent me the same link the Count posted saying they had watched it with tears of joy and exhilaration.

  53. Progress continues!
    Alabama : putting the “deliberate” in “deliberate speed” ever since 1954!
    She gave us a lot.
    Amen.

  54. Progress continues!
    Alabama : putting the “deliberate” in “deliberate speed” ever since 1954!
    She gave us a lot.
    Amen.

  55. It’s just a Goddamn Sense of Congress statement! But apparently supporting our allies instead of Russia (he also objected to the provision mandating that we do nothing to accept Russia’s annexation of Crimea) is too much for Trump.
    Crapping in a golden bowl is apparently not enough to satisfy him. He needs to crap all over our national history, our alliances, and our best interests as well.
    What will the Donald crap on next?

  56. It’s just a Goddamn Sense of Congress statement! But apparently supporting our allies instead of Russia (he also objected to the provision mandating that we do nothing to accept Russia’s annexation of Crimea) is too much for Trump.
    Crapping in a golden bowl is apparently not enough to satisfy him. He needs to crap all over our national history, our alliances, and our best interests as well.
    What will the Donald crap on next?

  59. He’ll only say nice things about her. After all, she may be black, but she’s dead — and so can’t say anything nasty (accurate) about him.

  60. He’ll only say nice things about her. After all, she may be black, but she’s dead — and so can’t say anything nasty (accurate) about him.

  63. he’d better keep his fool mouth shut about Aretha
    “hold my beer!” says potus…

    “I want to begin today by expressing my condolences to the family of a person I knew well. She worked for me on numerous occasions. She was terrific — Aretha Franklin — on her passing,” Trump said during a cabinet meeting

  64. he’d better keep his fool mouth shut about Aretha
    “hold my beer!” says potus…

    “I want to begin today by expressing my condolences to the family of a person I knew well. She worked for me on numerous occasions. She was terrific — Aretha Franklin — on her passing,” Trump said during a cabinet meeting

  69. Make no mistake,a black James Bond would be an act of dispossession far greater than a flotilla of a million refugees.
    Actually, I agree entirely.
    Albeit not the way that the author meant. I’d say it shows just how trivial a flotilla of refugees is!

  70. Make no mistake,a black James Bond would be an act of dispossession far greater than a flotilla of a million refugees.
    Actually, I agree entirely.
    Albeit not the way that the author meant. I’d say it shows just how trivial a flotilla of refugees is!

  71. OK, which would have been better/worse, a black James Bond or a female James Bond?
    Some links, obviously old, for background
    https://www.highsnobiety.com/p/female-james-bond/
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/05/15/you-dont-deserve-a-female-james-bond-or-a-lady-indiana-jones/#3ac05d4b169a
    https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/02/rachel-weisz-female-james-bond#~o
    My wife and I went to see the new Ocean’s Eight, half because she wanted to see it, half because the air conditioning. Not to spoil anything, the way they reset why Debbie Ocean (sister of Danny Ocean) wants to rob the jewels is interesting, but it didn’t really have the excitement of the first one. Why that is (or why I may think so) is interesting.

  72. OK, which would have been better/worse, a black James Bond or a female James Bond?
    Some links, obviously old, for background
    https://www.highsnobiety.com/p/female-james-bond/
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/05/15/you-dont-deserve-a-female-james-bond-or-a-lady-indiana-jones/#3ac05d4b169a
    https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/02/rachel-weisz-female-james-bond#~o
    My wife and I went to see the new Ocean’s Eight, half because she wanted to see it, half because the air conditioning. Not to spoil anything, the way they reset why Debbie Ocean (sister of Danny Ocean) wants to rob the jewels is interesting, but it didn’t really have the excitement of the first one. Why that is (or why I may think so) is interesting.

  73. FOX News mistook Patti LaBelle for Aretha Franklin, and I suspect tomorrow they will run a photo of Sidney Poitier, mistaking him for Idris Elba, the possible new Bond.
    If FOX interviews Elba and they ask him his character’s name, instead of replying “Bond … James Bond”, I hope he answers “You can call me Mista Tibbs.”
    Actually, the runner at FOX assigned the task of hunting up stock photos, when asked by the FOX producer to “find a picture of Franklin … or any Negro will do .. but NOT Omarosa” found only pictures of William Thomas Junior in FOX’s slim Negro file, the actor who played Buckwheat.
    Idris Elba is also rumored to be up for the part of Rhett Butler in the remake of “Gone With The Wind”.
    He reportedly said he would take the part only under the condition that Richard Spencer play Mammy, the part Hattie McDaniel made memorable.
    Spencer said he’s rather play Iago to Elba’s “Othello”, because he wants to be typecast as a cruel, manipulative conservative pigfucker.

  74. FOX News mistook Patti LaBelle for Aretha Franklin, and I suspect tomorrow they will run a photo of Sidney Poitier, mistaking him for Idris Elba, the possible new Bond.
    If FOX interviews Elba and they ask him his character’s name, instead of replying “Bond … James Bond”, I hope he answers “You can call me Mista Tibbs.”
    Actually, the runner at FOX assigned the task of hunting up stock photos, when asked by the FOX producer to “find a picture of Franklin … or any Negro will do .. but NOT Omarosa” found only pictures of William Thomas Junior in FOX’s slim Negro file, the actor who played Buckwheat.
    Idris Elba is also rumored to be up for the part of Rhett Butler in the remake of “Gone With The Wind”.
    He reportedly said he would take the part only under the condition that Richard Spencer play Mammy, the part Hattie McDaniel made memorable.
    Spencer said he’s rather play Iago to Elba’s “Othello”, because he wants to be typecast as a cruel, manipulative conservative pigfucker.

  75. “You own the libs twice…”
    lol.
    white people – they have a good 500 year run, in the ~100,000 year history of humanity, and they think they own the place.

  76. “You own the libs twice…”
    lol.
    white people – they have a good 500 year run, in the ~100,000 year history of humanity, and they think they own the place.

  77. Oh, a remake of Gone with the Wind would have to downplay the slavery angle anyway and cut out all the racism in order to not get torn to pieces by the modern conservatives. A black Rhett would be perfect*. The question is, whether Scarlett (Johansson) should use yellowface or not.
    *one of the millions of slaves that Jefferson Davis freed and who fought for the South from day one.

  78. Oh, a remake of Gone with the Wind would have to downplay the slavery angle anyway and cut out all the racism in order to not get torn to pieces by the modern conservatives. A black Rhett would be perfect*. The question is, whether Scarlett (Johansson) should use yellowface or not.
    *one of the millions of slaves that Jefferson Davis freed and who fought for the South from day one.

  79. Regarding the whole Asian representation thing, it’s become a concern of western media in recent years, as reaction to the latest movie shows…
    https://slate.com/culture/2018/08/the-joy-luck-club-needs-to-be-forgiven-by-asian-americans.html
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-45179503
    As the BBC article points out, rightly, I think, much of this is almost beside the point, with the rapidly growing importance of Asian cinema and TV.
    Right now, probably around half my own viewing is Korean TV, which gives a very different popular culture perspective.

  80. Regarding the whole Asian representation thing, it’s become a concern of western media in recent years, as reaction to the latest movie shows…
    https://slate.com/culture/2018/08/the-joy-luck-club-needs-to-be-forgiven-by-asian-americans.html
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-45179503
    As the BBC article points out, rightly, I think, much of this is almost beside the point, with the rapidly growing importance of Asian cinema and TV.
    Right now, probably around half my own viewing is Korean TV, which gives a very different popular culture perspective.

  83. I saw a couple,of episodes, and I’m not completely sold on it.
    The cinematography is quite jarring – oversaturated and implausible colours – which is unusual for Korean drama of recent years, where the standards are exceptionally good compared to much western fare. I thought the plotting of the first couple of episodes extremely sketchy… though that isn’t unusual either for even the better Korean stuff, so I might give it another go.
    Also, it’s on Netflix, and their subtitling is vastly inferior to that of the crowd sourced Rakuten Viki, which despite its faults gives a far better feel for the nuances of Korean language.

  84. I saw a couple,of episodes, and I’m not completely sold on it.
    The cinematography is quite jarring – oversaturated and implausible colours – which is unusual for Korean drama of recent years, where the standards are exceptionally good compared to much western fare. I thought the plotting of the first couple of episodes extremely sketchy… though that isn’t unusual either for even the better Korean stuff, so I might give it another go.
    Also, it’s on Netflix, and their subtitling is vastly inferior to that of the crowd sourced Rakuten Viki, which despite its faults gives a far better feel for the nuances of Korean language.

  85. With the Netflix connection, the production company may have felt it could spend a lot more on sets and cinematography and overdid it a bit. It’s certainly the most lavishly produced Korean drama I’ve seen so far. The subtitling may be suffering from making episodes available on Netflix shortly after broadcast in Korea. But, being a joint venture, you’d think they could have done them in advanced. Maybe they did and did it not very well anyway. I think, after the first few episodes, the series improves a bit. The first episodes have to introduce a lot of characters, provide backstories and flesh out current circumstances. I like the series but can understand why someone wouldn’t. One criticism I’ve seen is that it’s too much of a soap opera.
    I like the Viki subtitling too. They provide a more literal translation and then explain the puns and wordplays. Although, with a recent Chinese drama series, the translation was so literal as to be incomprehensible. I had to switch to Drama Fever to understand what was happening. But, with Drama Fever, it’s often difficult to tell whether the characters are using phrasing similar to English or the translators are making wholesale substitutions of English idioms and word usage. Viki also subtitles song lyrics which almost no one else bothers to do.

  86. With the Netflix connection, the production company may have felt it could spend a lot more on sets and cinematography and overdid it a bit. It’s certainly the most lavishly produced Korean drama I’ve seen so far. The subtitling may be suffering from making episodes available on Netflix shortly after broadcast in Korea. But, being a joint venture, you’d think they could have done them in advanced. Maybe they did and did it not very well anyway. I think, after the first few episodes, the series improves a bit. The first episodes have to introduce a lot of characters, provide backstories and flesh out current circumstances. I like the series but can understand why someone wouldn’t. One criticism I’ve seen is that it’s too much of a soap opera.
    I like the Viki subtitling too. They provide a more literal translation and then explain the puns and wordplays. Although, with a recent Chinese drama series, the translation was so literal as to be incomprehensible. I had to switch to Drama Fever to understand what was happening. But, with Drama Fever, it’s often difficult to tell whether the characters are using phrasing similar to English or the translators are making wholesale substitutions of English idioms and word usage. Viki also subtitles song lyrics which almost no one else bothers to do.

  87. Any time I think of subtitles, I’m put in mind of the ones in the kung fu movies we saw in college. Inevitability, at some point the heroine would get beaten up. The hero (having vanquished her attackers) holds her dying body in his arms and, according to the subtitles, says

    Brace up!

    I have no idea what an accurate translation would be. But that one always had us giggling.

  88. Any time I think of subtitles, I’m put in mind of the ones in the kung fu movies we saw in college. Inevitability, at some point the heroine would get beaten up. The hero (having vanquished her attackers) holds her dying body in his arms and, according to the subtitles, says

    Brace up!

    I have no idea what an accurate translation would be. But that one always had us giggling.

  89. A lot of the chopsocky movies dubbing and subtitles were translations into American gangland. One time, being bored, I watched one of the movies dubbed in Spanish. Pretty funny as the Spanish dubbing was a translation from the gangland dubbing.
    Viki creates subtitles in other languages using the English subtitles. Must make for some sometimes strange translations from the original Korean.

  90. A lot of the chopsocky movies dubbing and subtitles were translations into American gangland. One time, being bored, I watched one of the movies dubbed in Spanish. Pretty funny as the Spanish dubbing was a translation from the gangland dubbing.
    Viki creates subtitles in other languages using the English subtitles. Must make for some sometimes strange translations from the original Korean.

  101. Count, though the linked article doesn’t point it out, the congressman in question is a supporter of Trump’s immigration policies, and that support is what so upset the man now under arrest.

  102. Count, though the linked article doesn’t point it out, the congressman in question is a supporter of Trump’s immigration policies, and that support is what so upset the man now under arrest.

  103. the man now under arrest.
    the dude is 68 years old.
    the geezers are the ones to watch out for, they’ve lived their lives and don’t have all that much to lose.
    and no, I’m not making a joke.

  104. the man now under arrest.
    the dude is 68 years old.
    the geezers are the ones to watch out for, they’ve lived their lives and don’t have all that much to lose.
    and no, I’m not making a joke.

  107. In at least three voluntary interviews with investigators that totaled 30 hours over the past nine months, Mr. McGahn described the president’s furor toward the Russia investigation and the ways in which he urged Mr. McGahn to respond to it.
    Rather odd use of the word “furor” I would have thought. What do the correct usage police say, Janie?

  108. In at least three voluntary interviews with investigators that totaled 30 hours over the past nine months, Mr. McGahn described the president’s furor toward the Russia investigation and the ways in which he urged Mr. McGahn to respond to it.
    Rather odd use of the word “furor” I would have thought. What do the correct usage police say, Janie?

  109. You rang? 😉
    My best benefit of the doubt guess is that the writer meant “fury.”
    If I didn’t have actual work to do, I could produce a lengthy blog post every day of instances like this where either there’s little to no copy editing being done in the first place (if they thought deadlines were tight back in the day of print media, well….), or if there are in fact copy editors involved, they’re not as literate as they should be. Add in the effect of autocomplete…….aiy. (And as with the link someone posted a while back to some self-styled expert on trans issues, the internet has let loose a lot of people who aren’t as literate as the more pedantic among us could wish, but who make up for it with pretentiousness.)
    Okay, sounds snobbish. But it’s irritating to see these high-level, so taken with themselves pundits misusing relatively common words…..The link is to an article in what BJ-ers call FTFNYT, for crying out loud.
    Now and then, especially late at night, I write little instructional emails to editors mentioned on web pages. I’ve done it with boston.com and with our local paper (based in Maine’s capital city), and sometimes I get a note back, always gracious, or see an almost immediate correction. Which leads me to believe that the responsible people do care.
    *****
    I am bemused by statement that McGahn had “at least” three interviews totaling 30 hours…. Those are some danged long interviews….I hope they fed him once or twice along the way.

  110. You rang? 😉
    My best benefit of the doubt guess is that the writer meant “fury.”
    If I didn’t have actual work to do, I could produce a lengthy blog post every day of instances like this where either there’s little to no copy editing being done in the first place (if they thought deadlines were tight back in the day of print media, well….), or if there are in fact copy editors involved, they’re not as literate as they should be. Add in the effect of autocomplete…….aiy. (And as with the link someone posted a while back to some self-styled expert on trans issues, the internet has let loose a lot of people who aren’t as literate as the more pedantic among us could wish, but who make up for it with pretentiousness.)
    Okay, sounds snobbish. But it’s irritating to see these high-level, so taken with themselves pundits misusing relatively common words…..The link is to an article in what BJ-ers call FTFNYT, for crying out loud.
    Now and then, especially late at night, I write little instructional emails to editors mentioned on web pages. I’ve done it with boston.com and with our local paper (based in Maine’s capital city), and sometimes I get a note back, always gracious, or see an almost immediate correction. Which leads me to believe that the responsible people do care.
    *****
    I am bemused by statement that McGahn had “at least” three interviews totaling 30 hours…. Those are some danged long interviews….I hope they fed him once or twice along the way.

  111. Mr. Trump’s lawyers still had a chance to keep Mr. McGahn’s insider knowledge from the special counsel. By exerting attorney-client privilege, which allows the president to legally withhold information, they would have gained the right to learn what Mr. McGahn planned to tell investigators and what he might reveal that could damage the president
    So glad the doctor (or the correct usage policeperson) is in!
    I agree that fury made more sense, and moreover I would have thought that in this extract they meant “asserted” as opposed to “exerted”. Damn, I thought the NYT was supposed to be a stickler for this sort of thing.

  112. Mr. Trump’s lawyers still had a chance to keep Mr. McGahn’s insider knowledge from the special counsel. By exerting attorney-client privilege, which allows the president to legally withhold information, they would have gained the right to learn what Mr. McGahn planned to tell investigators and what he might reveal that could damage the president
    So glad the doctor (or the correct usage policeperson) is in!
    I agree that fury made more sense, and moreover I would have thought that in this extract they meant “asserted” as opposed to “exerted”. Damn, I thought the NYT was supposed to be a stickler for this sort of thing.

  113. Geez, I didn’t actually read much of it (I rarely read the NYT, why would I want to read a publication that employs Ross Douthat? :-), but I certainly agree with you about exert/assert.
    Haberman is one of their stars, isn’t she? And the fine print at the bottom of the article says that it appeared on page A1 of the print edition.
    Decline and fall…..

  114. Geez, I didn’t actually read much of it (I rarely read the NYT, why would I want to read a publication that employs Ross Douthat? :-), but I certainly agree with you about exert/assert.
    Haberman is one of their stars, isn’t she? And the fine print at the bottom of the article says that it appeared on page A1 of the print edition.
    Decline and fall…..

  121. For a lawyer to share so much with investigators scrutinizing his client is unusual.
    Except isn’t McGahn, as White House Counsel, actually an employee of the US government? That is, his real client is NOT the President, but the nation. Of course, Trump has demonstrated (not least with the Attorney General) that he has no clue that government employees are not his personal employees — like employees of the Trump Organization are.

  122. For a lawyer to share so much with investigators scrutinizing his client is unusual.
    Except isn’t McGahn, as White House Counsel, actually an employee of the US government? That is, his real client is NOT the President, but the nation. Of course, Trump has demonstrated (not least with the Attorney General) that he has no clue that government employees are not his personal employees — like employees of the Trump Organization are.

  123. Even including Watergate stuff….
    Yes, but Nixon was a trained lawyer with some idea of what he was doing; Trump is just flailing around, albeit with the capacity to do serious damage.

  124. Even including Watergate stuff….
    Yes, but Nixon was a trained lawyer with some idea of what he was doing; Trump is just flailing around, albeit with the capacity to do serious damage.

  125. Decline and fall…..
    Love you both, JanieM and GftNC, but problems with copyediting being the end of the world is so 2016.

  126. Decline and fall…..
    Love you both, JanieM and GftNC, but problems with copyediting being the end of the world is so 2016.

  127. I would have thought that in this extract they meant “asserted” as opposed to “exerted”.
    OTOH, “exerting the privilege” has some interesting possible connotations.

  128. I would have thought that in this extract they meant “asserted” as opposed to “exerted”.
    OTOH, “exerting the privilege” has some interesting possible connotations.

  129. Let me rephrase:
    Problems with copyediting being the end of the world is an issue that is so 2016.
    I hope I’ve redeemed myself!

  130. Let me rephrase:
    Problems with copyediting being the end of the world is an issue that is so 2016.
    I hope I’ve redeemed myself!

  131. Problems with copyediting being the end of the world is an issue that is so 2016.
    Then how much more so the wasting of time chiding people about it?
    You can’t possibly imagine that I’m going to jump off of my bandwagon and climb onto yours.

  132. Problems with copyediting being the end of the world is an issue that is so 2016.
    Then how much more so the wasting of time chiding people about it?
    You can’t possibly imagine that I’m going to jump off of my bandwagon and climb onto yours.

  133. I thought that you would recognize that it was good natured. Obviously, I misjudged the seriousness of the situation. Sorry.

  134. I thought that you would recognize that it was good natured. Obviously, I misjudged the seriousness of the situation. Sorry.

  135. Just to be clear, I was joking, and failing perhaps, but in the spirit of friendship.
    My “bandwagon” has nothing to do with grammar. I’m most concerned these days about immigrants being treated as subhumans, and being deprived of their children. Also, possibly, being treated as slave laborers.
    Don’t get me wrong, JanieM. I think your concern with grammar is lovely and fine. Grammar isn’t my “bandwagon”. Not for grammar or against grammar. I prefer good grammar, but it’s not my “bandwagon.”
    Peace.

  136. Just to be clear, I was joking, and failing perhaps, but in the spirit of friendship.
    My “bandwagon” has nothing to do with grammar. I’m most concerned these days about immigrants being treated as subhumans, and being deprived of their children. Also, possibly, being treated as slave laborers.
    Don’t get me wrong, JanieM. I think your concern with grammar is lovely and fine. Grammar isn’t my “bandwagon”. Not for grammar or against grammar. I prefer good grammar, but it’s not my “bandwagon.”
    Peace.

  137. sapient, I apologize for the snark. But this seems to be a common refrain of yours: why are people here talking about something that’s not as important as what you want to talk about?
    You may be able to arrange your life so that you are able to think of nothing else, and talk of nothing else, and do nothing else that’s non-essential to your daily life and wage-earning, until all this stuff is resolved, but I’m not, and/or don’t want to. I give money to causes, work for a couple of causes, occasionally nag my legislators, but — I’m not going to stop everything, quit my job, go to law school or social work school, and take a bus down to Texas to work with immigrants. (Or even Portland, where we also have immigrants.)
    To the extent that my bandwagon comment wasn’t snark, it too was lighthearted. More seriously, commenting about grammar is not equivalent to doing what I can about the immigrant situation. It’s more equivalent to, let’s say, listening to music, or reading a book, or visiting with friends, or taking a walk in the park, or eating ice cream. Have you done none of those things since parents starting being separated from kids at the border?

  138. sapient, I apologize for the snark. But this seems to be a common refrain of yours: why are people here talking about something that’s not as important as what you want to talk about?
    You may be able to arrange your life so that you are able to think of nothing else, and talk of nothing else, and do nothing else that’s non-essential to your daily life and wage-earning, until all this stuff is resolved, but I’m not, and/or don’t want to. I give money to causes, work for a couple of causes, occasionally nag my legislators, but — I’m not going to stop everything, quit my job, go to law school or social work school, and take a bus down to Texas to work with immigrants. (Or even Portland, where we also have immigrants.)
    To the extent that my bandwagon comment wasn’t snark, it too was lighthearted. More seriously, commenting about grammar is not equivalent to doing what I can about the immigrant situation. It’s more equivalent to, let’s say, listening to music, or reading a book, or visiting with friends, or taking a walk in the park, or eating ice cream. Have you done none of those things since parents starting being separated from kids at the border?

  139. I should do more of what you suggest, JanieM.. Some things in my life have come up that have interfered with my focus.
    Thanks for listening.

  140. I should do more of what you suggest, JanieM.. Some things in my life have come up that have interfered with my focus.
    Thanks for listening.

  141. Thanks for responding as you have. I hope your life settles down and you get your focus back into shape. My own focus seems to get less manageable the older I get…..yikes.

  142. Thanks for responding as you have. I hope your life settles down and you get your focus back into shape. My own focus seems to get less manageable the older I get…..yikes.

  143. After triggering this, I foolishly went to bed! But from there, and on phone, I would just like to say (and anybody might find this farfetched and disagree), that I think there is a connection, albeit tenuous, between sloppy writing, sloppy thinking, and the phenomena of Trump et al. You don’t even need the constant denigration of the “elite” to illustrate it. But anyway, I don’t believe noticing and talking about these things detracts from one’s concern about the state of the nation.

  144. After triggering this, I foolishly went to bed! But from there, and on phone, I would just like to say (and anybody might find this farfetched and disagree), that I think there is a connection, albeit tenuous, between sloppy writing, sloppy thinking, and the phenomena of Trump et al. You don’t even need the constant denigration of the “elite” to illustrate it. But anyway, I don’t believe noticing and talking about these things detracts from one’s concern about the state of the nation.

  147. I don’t believe noticing and talking about these things detracts from one’s concern about the state of the nation.
    Hope you wake up early, GftNC.
    Please read the following with the lightest of hearts
    You do realize, I hope, that standardized grammar and spelling coincided with factories, and standardization of all kinds, good and bad.
    That’s not to say that clarity of grammar and spelling is a bad thing, but do you really think that, prior to the18th century, people didn’t have clear thoughts or were unable to express themselves clearly?
    Y’all are neoliberals, are you not? [Just making trouble, and being a pest.]
    So, thinking about grammar, form, formulae, etc., what do you think about poetry? Free verse? Rap? What’s it all about?
    I try not to make mistakes [not so much here]. I’m deeply embarrassed when I do (especially a spelling mistake, and I made a serious one lately). But I don’t want to see the US adopt a “literary language” that’s at odds with the common vernacular, or what people can say, and have understood, without rules.

  148. I don’t believe noticing and talking about these things detracts from one’s concern about the state of the nation.
    Hope you wake up early, GftNC.
    Please read the following with the lightest of hearts
    You do realize, I hope, that standardized grammar and spelling coincided with factories, and standardization of all kinds, good and bad.
    That’s not to say that clarity of grammar and spelling is a bad thing, but do you really think that, prior to the18th century, people didn’t have clear thoughts or were unable to express themselves clearly?
    Y’all are neoliberals, are you not? [Just making trouble, and being a pest.]
    So, thinking about grammar, form, formulae, etc., what do you think about poetry? Free verse? Rap? What’s it all about?
    I try not to make mistakes [not so much here]. I’m deeply embarrassed when I do (especially a spelling mistake, and I made a serious one lately). But I don’t want to see the US adopt a “literary language” that’s at odds with the common vernacular, or what people can say, and have understood, without rules.

  149. Also, GftNC, I think your insistence on some rigorous definition of “fascism” or “Nazi” has skirted the fact of what’s happening here in Trumpville. Trump Nation is the American equivalent of Nazi, Fascism. And it just keeps conforming itself more and more to its prototype. We’re going to be lost. Maybe because people, early on, refused to call it what it is.

  150. Also, GftNC, I think your insistence on some rigorous definition of “fascism” or “Nazi” has skirted the fact of what’s happening here in Trumpville. Trump Nation is the American equivalent of Nazi, Fascism. And it just keeps conforming itself more and more to its prototype. We’re going to be lost. Maybe because people, early on, refused to call it what it is.

  151. You do realize, I hope, that standardized grammar…coincided with factories…
    This is nonsense. But I will leave it to our resident linguistics professor to elaborate, if he should so desire.

  152. You do realize, I hope, that standardized grammar…coincided with factories…
    This is nonsense. But I will leave it to our resident linguistics professor to elaborate, if he should so desire.

  153. what do you think about . . . Rap?
    What I mostly think about Rap is that it’s fascinating that we found it necessary to create a new form of “music” to disguise the fact that what was really happening was a revival of poetry. Apparently it wasn’t thinkable that poetry could be recited in public and appreciated by substantial audiences.
    In my opinion, most Rap is mere doggerel. Pretty poor, even for doggerel. But then, that is true of most poetry, too.

  154. what do you think about . . . Rap?
    What I mostly think about Rap is that it’s fascinating that we found it necessary to create a new form of “music” to disguise the fact that what was really happening was a revival of poetry. Apparently it wasn’t thinkable that poetry could be recited in public and appreciated by substantial audiences.
    In my opinion, most Rap is mere doggerel. Pretty poor, even for doggerel. But then, that is true of most poetry, too.

  157. what I thought was notable about the nyt piece was that the white house counsel spent 30 hours talking about God knows what with Mueller’s team.
    it seemed, to me, remarkable.
    bad English usage is, sadly, hardly noteworthy. even at the times.

  158. what I thought was notable about the nyt piece was that the white house counsel spent 30 hours talking about God knows what with Mueller’s team.
    it seemed, to me, remarkable.
    bad English usage is, sadly, hardly noteworthy. even at the times.

  159. to me, rap is sort of a victim of its own success.
    if you ever get the chance to check it out in its original habitat – a dj, a sound system, some good smart rhymers, and a party – I think you will dig it. maybe. the spontaneous back and forth is beautiful.
    some of the better rappers go well beyond doggerel. not my area, really, if Eric was still around he’d have some thoughts to share.

  160. to me, rap is sort of a victim of its own success.
    if you ever get the chance to check it out in its original habitat – a dj, a sound system, some good smart rhymers, and a party – I think you will dig it. maybe. the spontaneous back and forth is beautiful.
    some of the better rappers go well beyond doggerel. not my area, really, if Eric was still around he’d have some thoughts to share.

  161. On 12 July 2000, I read a story in the Boston Globe that has stuck in my memory for two reasons:
    1) It included the phrase “former tool and dye factory”. This annoyed me, because I believe that no tool and “dye” factory has ever existed in the entire history of manufacturing. Alternatively, I believe it’s no wonder that a company manufacturing both tools and dyes went out of business.
    2) It reported that the leader of the S&M club which was renting the former factory for its, uhm, meetings was charged with “lending or exhibiting articles for self-abuse”, which you have to admit was either made up on the spot by the DA or else have been a fun statute for our legislators to write.
    I thought at the time that ignorance of the tool-and-die business on the part of reporters and editors might have something to do with the alleged decline of American manufacturing. But I may have been wrong. Attempting to look up that article just now, I naturally googled “tool and dye” and got many thousands of hits which were want-ads for “tool and dye makers”, not just in newspapers but also in trade mags.
    As a Thing That Is Wrong With The World, this “tool and dye” malapropism ranks lower than frayed shoelaces, of course. But still. And while I’m at it:
    You LEVY a tariff; you LEVEL an accusation.
    You MUTE a microphone; you MOOT an argument.
    To REPORT (or ruhport, as Bob Woodward pronounces it) is to CONVEY information, not GATHER it.
    You clip a COUPON; I have no clue what you do with a KEWPON.
    The COUP DE GRACE (koo de grasse) is the final touch, the finishing blow. If “koo de grah” means anything, it means a drink of fat.
    While we do what we can to Make America Decent Again, trying to Make America Literate Again is probably a waste of time, of course. But collusion with sloppy English should still be refudiated.
    –TP

  162. On 12 July 2000, I read a story in the Boston Globe that has stuck in my memory for two reasons:
    1) It included the phrase “former tool and dye factory”. This annoyed me, because I believe that no tool and “dye” factory has ever existed in the entire history of manufacturing. Alternatively, I believe it’s no wonder that a company manufacturing both tools and dyes went out of business.
    2) It reported that the leader of the S&M club which was renting the former factory for its, uhm, meetings was charged with “lending or exhibiting articles for self-abuse”, which you have to admit was either made up on the spot by the DA or else have been a fun statute for our legislators to write.
    I thought at the time that ignorance of the tool-and-die business on the part of reporters and editors might have something to do with the alleged decline of American manufacturing. But I may have been wrong. Attempting to look up that article just now, I naturally googled “tool and dye” and got many thousands of hits which were want-ads for “tool and dye makers”, not just in newspapers but also in trade mags.
    As a Thing That Is Wrong With The World, this “tool and dye” malapropism ranks lower than frayed shoelaces, of course. But still. And while I’m at it:
    You LEVY a tariff; you LEVEL an accusation.
    You MUTE a microphone; you MOOT an argument.
    To REPORT (or ruhport, as Bob Woodward pronounces it) is to CONVEY information, not GATHER it.
    You clip a COUPON; I have no clue what you do with a KEWPON.
    The COUP DE GRACE (koo de grasse) is the final touch, the finishing blow. If “koo de grah” means anything, it means a drink of fat.
    While we do what we can to Make America Decent Again, trying to Make America Literate Again is probably a waste of time, of course. But collusion with sloppy English should still be refudiated.
    –TP

  165. TP, I was smiling along for a while, then “KEWPON” made me laugh out loud.
    Next to “koo de grah” you can put “memwah” and “oMAZH” — MEMOIR and HOMAGE pronounced by people who apparently think they’re French words.
    Between 2008 and 2012, half the people on the radio decided that the cool kids say “candiduht” instead of “candidayt.” I’m pretty sure I never heard the former pronunciation before 2012, although I’ve since read that it has been around in the upper Midwest for a long time. It’s just an example of how fast these changes can move. Transitional-phase-wise, I’ve heard people use both pronunciations in the same sentence.
    As the upper Midwest mention implies, some of the pronunciation stuff is a matter of regional dialects. You should hear how “roof,” “root,” and “route” are pronounced out where I grew up (NE Ohio). The former have the same vowel sound as “took,” and the latter is pronounced like “rout.”
    On first coming to New England, I wondered why path didn’t always rhyme with bath, or half with calf. Funny, I now say roof, route, and root the New England (?) way. But I still say the “a” in path, half, calf, and bath the way I grew up saying them. (Same sound as in “fan,” what the nuns taught us to call “short a.”)
    Finally, for tonight, having consulted a few sources other than my own irritable sensibilities, I see that “furor” can mean rage or anger, although acc’ to Garner its use for that meaning is rare.

  166. TP, I was smiling along for a while, then “KEWPON” made me laugh out loud.
    Next to “koo de grah” you can put “memwah” and “oMAZH” — MEMOIR and HOMAGE pronounced by people who apparently think they’re French words.
    Between 2008 and 2012, half the people on the radio decided that the cool kids say “candiduht” instead of “candidayt.” I’m pretty sure I never heard the former pronunciation before 2012, although I’ve since read that it has been around in the upper Midwest for a long time. It’s just an example of how fast these changes can move. Transitional-phase-wise, I’ve heard people use both pronunciations in the same sentence.
    As the upper Midwest mention implies, some of the pronunciation stuff is a matter of regional dialects. You should hear how “roof,” “root,” and “route” are pronounced out where I grew up (NE Ohio). The former have the same vowel sound as “took,” and the latter is pronounced like “rout.”
    On first coming to New England, I wondered why path didn’t always rhyme with bath, or half with calf. Funny, I now say roof, route, and root the New England (?) way. But I still say the “a” in path, half, calf, and bath the way I grew up saying them. (Same sound as in “fan,” what the nuns taught us to call “short a.”)
    Finally, for tonight, having consulted a few sources other than my own irritable sensibilities, I see that “furor” can mean rage or anger, although acc’ to Garner its use for that meaning is rare.

  167. And I’d always spelled it furore….
    You LEVY a tariff; you LEVEL an accusation.
    Although it is more or less the business of the WTO to level tariffs….

  168. And I’d always spelled it furore….
    You LEVY a tariff; you LEVEL an accusation.
    Although it is more or less the business of the WTO to level tariffs….

  169. furore/furor: British vs American spellings, acc’ to sources.
    There’s plenty of that going around.
    E.g. from here (part of Oxford University Press):
    Verbs in British English that can be spelled with either -ize or -ise at the end are always spelled with -ize at the end in American English.
    We had go-rounds about this back when I was doing a lot of editing at work. We’re an international company, and European clients often wanted “British English.” I had to tell my bosses that I could leave British English intact where I recognized it, but couldn’t really generate it ad hoc — this isn’t my real work, after all, nor am I British. Anyhow, I said, if the Brits can’t decide amongst themselves whether to use -ize or -ise, I felt perfectly justified in doing it the American way.

  170. furore/furor: British vs American spellings, acc’ to sources.
    There’s plenty of that going around.
    E.g. from here (part of Oxford University Press):
    Verbs in British English that can be spelled with either -ize or -ise at the end are always spelled with -ize at the end in American English.
    We had go-rounds about this back when I was doing a lot of editing at work. We’re an international company, and European clients often wanted “British English.” I had to tell my bosses that I could leave British English intact where I recognized it, but couldn’t really generate it ad hoc — this isn’t my real work, after all, nor am I British. Anyhow, I said, if the Brits can’t decide amongst themselves whether to use -ize or -ise, I felt perfectly justified in doing it the American way.

  171. TP — by the way, I can see remembering “tool and dye” and “lending or exhibiting articles for self-abuse,” but is there some reason why you remembered the date of the article as well?
    I mean, I remember a lot of trivia (less–or is it fewer?–than when I was younger, to tell the sorry truth), including a lot of dates. But the date of a newspaper article? That’s impressive.

  172. TP — by the way, I can see remembering “tool and dye” and “lending or exhibiting articles for self-abuse,” but is there some reason why you remembered the date of the article as well?
    I mean, I remember a lot of trivia (less–or is it fewer?–than when I was younger, to tell the sorry truth), including a lot of dates. But the date of a newspaper article? That’s impressive.

  173. Janie, Janie, Janie,
    Have I ever given you cause to believe I have such a steel-trap mind as all that?
    No, the whole credit belongs to the Globe’s archive database (subscription required) and its search capability. Unable to remember the exact phrasing of the charge — which I was NOT about to try all variations of as search terms — I searched for “tool and dye” and the article (including its date of publication of course) came up.
    BTW, one of the articles the search kicked up had to do with the notorious case of the British nanny who was being tried for murder in the death of a baby in Newton(?). The judge in the case ruled that involuntary manslaughter was the only appropriate charge. A glitch occurred when the judge tried to issue his ruling on-line to meet some sort of procedural deadline: the judge’s ISP was a Brookline company called “Software Tool and Die”, a provider that can reasonably claim to be the world’s first public ISP, and can surely claim to have a decent sense of humor. At the critical moment, a Boston Edison crew working in the street outside the STD office unintentionally cut power to the building, causing the judge’s ruling to be published late. Sure enough, the Globe article on the matter referred to the company as “Software Tool and Dye”.
    –TP

  174. Janie, Janie, Janie,
    Have I ever given you cause to believe I have such a steel-trap mind as all that?
    No, the whole credit belongs to the Globe’s archive database (subscription required) and its search capability. Unable to remember the exact phrasing of the charge — which I was NOT about to try all variations of as search terms — I searched for “tool and dye” and the article (including its date of publication of course) came up.
    BTW, one of the articles the search kicked up had to do with the notorious case of the British nanny who was being tried for murder in the death of a baby in Newton(?). The judge in the case ruled that involuntary manslaughter was the only appropriate charge. A glitch occurred when the judge tried to issue his ruling on-line to meet some sort of procedural deadline: the judge’s ISP was a Brookline company called “Software Tool and Die”, a provider that can reasonably claim to be the world’s first public ISP, and can surely claim to have a decent sense of humor. At the critical moment, a Boston Edison crew working in the street outside the STD office unintentionally cut power to the building, causing the judge’s ruling to be published late. Sure enough, the Globe article on the matter referred to the company as “Software Tool and Dye”.
    –TP

  177. Anyhow, I said, if the Brits can’t decide amongst themselves whether to use -ize or -ise, I felt perfectly justified in doing it the American way.
    I realise you’re trying to get a rise out of me, but you must recognise it’s not going to work.
    🙂

  178. Anyhow, I said, if the Brits can’t decide amongst themselves whether to use -ize or -ise, I felt perfectly justified in doing it the American way.
    I realise you’re trying to get a rise out of me, but you must recognise it’s not going to work.
    🙂

  179. My own personal favoirite is licence/license – noun/verb in English.
    You are entirely sensible to have dispensed with the -ce version.

  180. My own personal favoirite is licence/license – noun/verb in English.
    You are entirely sensible to have dispensed with the -ce version.

  181. I will leave it to our resident linguistics professor to elaborate
    You rang? Sorry, I was defeating the forces of fascism had an orchestra practice for the weekend. Sapient, while I can see why you might suggest there was a correlation between grammar correction and factories (i.e. the Industrial Revolution) (and certainly mass media and greater social mobility creates the conditions where language is used as a marker and is therefore subject to use to maintain social divisions) a little thought would suggest that standardization comes whenever a language is set out in written form. This is from Nicholas Ostler’s book Ad Infinitum: A Biography of Latin.
    Scholars’ adaptations of grammatical theory to Latin gave the language a new source of status, putting it effectively on a par with Greek even at this, most abstract level. But there was another motivation for developing grammar, one that brings us back to the schoolroom. Foreigners aspiring to learn the language well, especially as it began to change, needed instruction on what was good style; seeing examples of it held up for imitation was no longer enough for learners. Grammatical theory began to be presented, often in simplified form, in the classroom. The word barbaros / BARBARVS came to at least as commonly used to denigrate failures in grammar and style (in Greek or Latin) as to point something out as truly foreign. A. Gellius, a scholar of the second century AD, naturally described a correct usage as NON BARBARE DICERE, SED LATINE ‘saying it not barbarously but in Latin’.
    And while such implicit snobbery against the outsiders continued to prevail, a curious fact was missed. Already by the first century AD, Latin scholars had demonstrated that Greek was not the only language reducible to rule, even if those very rules were inspired by looking at Greek. Other languages too could have a grammar.
    Lest one think that I’m suggesting that Janie and GftNC are engaging in snobbery, I am not, just trying to indicate that standardization didn’t come in with the first factory, so the argument seems more like a ‘oh, and by the way, your tie is ugly’ kind of argument i.e. an argument tagged on the end to piss another person off.
    The question of Rap is also raised. I don’t share wj’s view that it is ‘mere doggerel’. In the episode on Black English in America from The Story of English (1986), they present a street poet and it’s easy to see the line from the oral poets to rappers.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UutNB2OzUjs
    check out about 41:00
    Is it doggerel? Well remembering Sturgeon’s law, if you were around when Homer and the other bards were singing for their supper, you might say yeah, that’s crap, so wj is probably right that ‘most Rap is mere doggerel”, but failing to see that it is a Western (and human) heritage is a mistake, imho.

  182. I will leave it to our resident linguistics professor to elaborate
    You rang? Sorry, I was defeating the forces of fascism had an orchestra practice for the weekend. Sapient, while I can see why you might suggest there was a correlation between grammar correction and factories (i.e. the Industrial Revolution) (and certainly mass media and greater social mobility creates the conditions where language is used as a marker and is therefore subject to use to maintain social divisions) a little thought would suggest that standardization comes whenever a language is set out in written form. This is from Nicholas Ostler’s book Ad Infinitum: A Biography of Latin.
    Scholars’ adaptations of grammatical theory to Latin gave the language a new source of status, putting it effectively on a par with Greek even at this, most abstract level. But there was another motivation for developing grammar, one that brings us back to the schoolroom. Foreigners aspiring to learn the language well, especially as it began to change, needed instruction on what was good style; seeing examples of it held up for imitation was no longer enough for learners. Grammatical theory began to be presented, often in simplified form, in the classroom. The word barbaros / BARBARVS came to at least as commonly used to denigrate failures in grammar and style (in Greek or Latin) as to point something out as truly foreign. A. Gellius, a scholar of the second century AD, naturally described a correct usage as NON BARBARE DICERE, SED LATINE ‘saying it not barbarously but in Latin’.
    And while such implicit snobbery against the outsiders continued to prevail, a curious fact was missed. Already by the first century AD, Latin scholars had demonstrated that Greek was not the only language reducible to rule, even if those very rules were inspired by looking at Greek. Other languages too could have a grammar.
    Lest one think that I’m suggesting that Janie and GftNC are engaging in snobbery, I am not, just trying to indicate that standardization didn’t come in with the first factory, so the argument seems more like a ‘oh, and by the way, your tie is ugly’ kind of argument i.e. an argument tagged on the end to piss another person off.
    The question of Rap is also raised. I don’t share wj’s view that it is ‘mere doggerel’. In the episode on Black English in America from The Story of English (1986), they present a street poet and it’s easy to see the line from the oral poets to rappers.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UutNB2OzUjs
    check out about 41:00
    Is it doggerel? Well remembering Sturgeon’s law, if you were around when Homer and the other bards were singing for their supper, you might say yeah, that’s crap, so wj is probably right that ‘most Rap is mere doggerel”, but failing to see that it is a Western (and human) heritage is a mistake, imho.

  185. sapient, I don’t usually respond to your remarks to me about terminology for the administration, but in recognition of your recent efforts I am doing so one last time.
    I said here on ObWi before the 2016 election that I believed a Trump presidency would be an existential threat to what I called the American project, by which I meant the better angels of your aspirations, or even the past status quo. Nothing that has happened has changed my mind, to the contrary in fact. But I still get to choose what words I use. I understand that you are doing your version of “God’s work” with immigrants and asylum seekers for example, and I applaud and support you for it, as I have always made plain. I can even see that you may think you are doing vital work in trying to persuade the unconvinced of the heinousness of the Trumpsters, to avoid a population walking blindly into a dictatorship. But nobody here, certainly not I, can be classed as the unconvinced, so your attempts to strong-arm me into calling them what you and the Count want to call them, rather than what I want to call them, are both misguided and a distraction from what I presume is your real goal, which is to say fighting them. There have been other villains in history, apart from the Nazis (which word certainly describes some Trump supporters), and there will be others in the future. I do not intend to let kneejerk reaching for the names of the last great bogeymen circumscribe my own reaction to them.

  186. sapient, I don’t usually respond to your remarks to me about terminology for the administration, but in recognition of your recent efforts I am doing so one last time.
    I said here on ObWi before the 2016 election that I believed a Trump presidency would be an existential threat to what I called the American project, by which I meant the better angels of your aspirations, or even the past status quo. Nothing that has happened has changed my mind, to the contrary in fact. But I still get to choose what words I use. I understand that you are doing your version of “God’s work” with immigrants and asylum seekers for example, and I applaud and support you for it, as I have always made plain. I can even see that you may think you are doing vital work in trying to persuade the unconvinced of the heinousness of the Trumpsters, to avoid a population walking blindly into a dictatorship. But nobody here, certainly not I, can be classed as the unconvinced, so your attempts to strong-arm me into calling them what you and the Count want to call them, rather than what I want to call them, are both misguided and a distraction from what I presume is your real goal, which is to say fighting them. There have been other villains in history, apart from the Nazis (which word certainly describes some Trump supporters), and there will be others in the future. I do not intend to let kneejerk reaching for the names of the last great bogeymen circumscribe my own reaction to them.

  187. @Nigel 🙂
    *****
    lj has sort of covered it, but I want to add that attention to grammar and usage is not the least bit in conflict with appreciation for rap, free verse, or the “vernacular.”* It’s a false equivalence–whether a misunderstanding or a deliberate gotcha, I don’t know–to suggest otherwise. In fact, something like free verse by definition needs “unfree” verse, i.e. “the rules” (real or imagined), to play off of. Rap similarly. Those arts don’t violate the boundaries of “correct” forms so much as they expand them, maybe interrogating the very notion of “correctness” as they go.
    I talk about grammar and usage because I enjoy it, the way some people enjoy talking about baseball or beer or butterflies. Mostly I punch up: I’m bitching about the fncking New York Times, not the person-in-the-street who wouldn’t know a subjunctive from a subway stop. (I’m not all that sure about the subjunctive myself.) I’m frustrated with the fact that the educational system in this country gave up a long time ago at teaching people to write well. The people whose writing I edit (for pay and as a volunteer) are smart and well-educated, and almost none of them can write a coherent paragraph composed of one sentence flowing into another, embodying a thought train, to save their lives.
    *”The vernacular” reminds me of the saying, “A language is just a dialect with an army and a navy.”
    Ah, the roads not taken.

  188. @Nigel 🙂
    *****
    lj has sort of covered it, but I want to add that attention to grammar and usage is not the least bit in conflict with appreciation for rap, free verse, or the “vernacular.”* It’s a false equivalence–whether a misunderstanding or a deliberate gotcha, I don’t know–to suggest otherwise. In fact, something like free verse by definition needs “unfree” verse, i.e. “the rules” (real or imagined), to play off of. Rap similarly. Those arts don’t violate the boundaries of “correct” forms so much as they expand them, maybe interrogating the very notion of “correctness” as they go.
    I talk about grammar and usage because I enjoy it, the way some people enjoy talking about baseball or beer or butterflies. Mostly I punch up: I’m bitching about the fncking New York Times, not the person-in-the-street who wouldn’t know a subjunctive from a subway stop. (I’m not all that sure about the subjunctive myself.) I’m frustrated with the fact that the educational system in this country gave up a long time ago at teaching people to write well. The people whose writing I edit (for pay and as a volunteer) are smart and well-educated, and almost none of them can write a coherent paragraph composed of one sentence flowing into another, embodying a thought train, to save their lives.
    *”The vernacular” reminds me of the saying, “A language is just a dialect with an army and a navy.”
    Ah, the roads not taken.

  189. the battle of ‘frahg’ vs ‘fraug’ has been raging in my household for 22 years now.
    What I mostly think about Rap is that it’s fascinating that we found it necessary to create a new form of “music” to disguise the fact that what was really happening was a revival of poetry.
    IMO, the history of rap is fascinating. ‘talking blues’ is an obvious predecessor. white folkies were doing it in the 60s, but it goes back to the 20s at least. and there are examples of preachers doing the classic rap cadence (ex. the one in Rapper’s Delight) as far back as the 1940s. while the whole ‘two turntables and a microphone’ setup, where a DJ spins two records to keep the groove going seamlessly forever while rapping over it, can be traced to a specific party held in an apartment.

  190. the battle of ‘frahg’ vs ‘fraug’ has been raging in my household for 22 years now.
    What I mostly think about Rap is that it’s fascinating that we found it necessary to create a new form of “music” to disguise the fact that what was really happening was a revival of poetry.
    IMO, the history of rap is fascinating. ‘talking blues’ is an obvious predecessor. white folkies were doing it in the 60s, but it goes back to the 20s at least. and there are examples of preachers doing the classic rap cadence (ex. the one in Rapper’s Delight) as far back as the 1940s. while the whole ‘two turntables and a microphone’ setup, where a DJ spins two records to keep the groove going seamlessly forever while rapping over it, can be traced to a specific party held in an apartment.

  191. just trying to indicate that standardization didn’t come in with the first factory, so the argument seems more like a ‘oh, and by the way, your tie is ugly’ kind of argument i.e. an argument tagged on the end to piss another person off.
    It wasn’t an attempt to piss people off, and thank you for sharing your expertise. It’s truly a fascinating topic.
    This is a handy rundown of the history of English spelling and standardization. Most of the important initiatives to standardize came with Samuel Johnson in the UK (18th c.), then Noah Webster in the US (18th and 19th c.). Standardization and conformity were important for a lot of reasons, manufacturing and trade among them. In any case, people spoke and wrote in English for a long while before standardization. Perhaps standardization is more about empire than factories.
    so your attempts to strong-arm me into calling them what you and the Count want to call them, rather than what I want to call them
    Thanks for the response. That has not been my attempt. My attempt has been to defend my own use of the term, and to draw parallels to a historical situation that is well-known to most people in my general demographic. I don’t believe that I’ve ever insisted that you use the term.
    To conclude my part in this conversation, let me just say that I admire good copy editors immensely, and believe that language is often at its best when precision and care are taken to select the most descriptive term. I wish I were better at it. However, when taking other people to task, if meaning is clear, small mistakes in spelling, word usage, or even grammar are (IMO) somewhat trivial. It’s fun to detect these errors, to learn more about words by looking them up, and certainly to shame a major newspaper (especially one that deserves criticism for other reasons). In truth, though, since newspapers struggle financially, I’d rather have more reporters than copy editors (although, ideally, all would be employed and well remunerated).

  192. just trying to indicate that standardization didn’t come in with the first factory, so the argument seems more like a ‘oh, and by the way, your tie is ugly’ kind of argument i.e. an argument tagged on the end to piss another person off.
    It wasn’t an attempt to piss people off, and thank you for sharing your expertise. It’s truly a fascinating topic.
    This is a handy rundown of the history of English spelling and standardization. Most of the important initiatives to standardize came with Samuel Johnson in the UK (18th c.), then Noah Webster in the US (18th and 19th c.). Standardization and conformity were important for a lot of reasons, manufacturing and trade among them. In any case, people spoke and wrote in English for a long while before standardization. Perhaps standardization is more about empire than factories.
    so your attempts to strong-arm me into calling them what you and the Count want to call them, rather than what I want to call them
    Thanks for the response. That has not been my attempt. My attempt has been to defend my own use of the term, and to draw parallels to a historical situation that is well-known to most people in my general demographic. I don’t believe that I’ve ever insisted that you use the term.
    To conclude my part in this conversation, let me just say that I admire good copy editors immensely, and believe that language is often at its best when precision and care are taken to select the most descriptive term. I wish I were better at it. However, when taking other people to task, if meaning is clear, small mistakes in spelling, word usage, or even grammar are (IMO) somewhat trivial. It’s fun to detect these errors, to learn more about words by looking them up, and certainly to shame a major newspaper (especially one that deserves criticism for other reasons). In truth, though, since newspapers struggle financially, I’d rather have more reporters than copy editors (although, ideally, all would be employed and well remunerated).

  193. sapient: Also, GftNC, I think your insistence on some rigorous definition of “fascism” or “Nazi” has skirted the fact of what’s happening here in Trumpville…We’re going to be lost. Maybe because people, early on, refused to call it what it is.
    GftNC (and sapient quoting her): so your attempts to strong-arm me into calling them what you and the Count want to call them, rather than what I want to call them…
    sapient: That has not been my attempt. My attempt has been to defend my own use of the term…

  194. sapient: Also, GftNC, I think your insistence on some rigorous definition of “fascism” or “Nazi” has skirted the fact of what’s happening here in Trumpville…We’re going to be lost. Maybe because people, early on, refused to call it what it is.
    GftNC (and sapient quoting her): so your attempts to strong-arm me into calling them what you and the Count want to call them, rather than what I want to call them…
    sapient: That has not been my attempt. My attempt has been to defend my own use of the term…

  199. JanieM has touched on one of my peeves: US pronunciation of French words. Of course we use French words here too: we pronounce them somewhere between English and French, depending on how familiar we are with French pronunciation and how affected we’re willing to risk sounding. Whereas it’s apparently normal in the US to use an unenglish pronunciation which would be anywhere near correct only if the words came from some unknown language almost entirely unlike French.
    “Filet”, especially as pronounced by waiters, is a prime example. It sounds like “fellate” with a silent “t”. Someone somewhere has been told that French stresses final syllables, which is not wholly wrong, and exaggerated it absurdly. While not bothering in the slightest with what French vowels actually sound like.
    In JanieM’s example, “mémoire”, unlike “memoir”, is a French word, but “memwah” is not a French pronunciation, which … ok, I’ll stop ranting. For now.

  200. JanieM has touched on one of my peeves: US pronunciation of French words. Of course we use French words here too: we pronounce them somewhere between English and French, depending on how familiar we are with French pronunciation and how affected we’re willing to risk sounding. Whereas it’s apparently normal in the US to use an unenglish pronunciation which would be anywhere near correct only if the words came from some unknown language almost entirely unlike French.
    “Filet”, especially as pronounced by waiters, is a prime example. It sounds like “fellate” with a silent “t”. Someone somewhere has been told that French stresses final syllables, which is not wholly wrong, and exaggerated it absurdly. While not bothering in the slightest with what French vowels actually sound like.
    In JanieM’s example, “mémoire”, unlike “memoir”, is a French word, but “memwah” is not a French pronunciation, which … ok, I’ll stop ranting. For now.

  203. The question of Rap is also raised. I don’t share wj’s view that it is ‘mere doggerel’
    I see I’ve been seriously unclear. I don’t think all rap is doggerel, any more than all poetry is. But I would contend that much of both fails to rise above that level.

  204. The question of Rap is also raised. I don’t share wj’s view that it is ‘mere doggerel’
    I see I’ve been seriously unclear. I don’t think all rap is doggerel, any more than all poetry is. But I would contend that much of both fails to rise above that level.

  205. he is wanted in Mexico, for murder.
    According to this story:
    “In the charging documents he is charged with being in the country without documents. He is not in extradition proceedings.”
    Because of all of the abuses that have happened lately, I no longer trust ICE. It seems that they came up with this story after they grabbed him.

  206. he is wanted in Mexico, for murder.
    According to this story:
    “In the charging documents he is charged with being in the country without documents. He is not in extradition proceedings.”
    Because of all of the abuses that have happened lately, I no longer trust ICE. It seems that they came up with this story after they grabbed him.

  209. By calling a John Dean a “rat”, the subhuman republican vermin crawling on the dog stinking up the White House admits his and his 65 million scuttling supporters’ treasonous guilt:
    http://juanitajean.com/
    When these scum are out of that building, and they will be, by force, condemn and demolish it and build a new structure to house future Presidents.
    Spray weekly for republican vermin.

  210. By calling a John Dean a “rat”, the subhuman republican vermin crawling on the dog stinking up the White House admits his and his 65 million scuttling supporters’ treasonous guilt:
    http://juanitajean.com/
    When these scum are out of that building, and they will be, by force, condemn and demolish it and build a new structure to house future Presidents.
    Spray weekly for republican vermin.

  211. Aulus Gellius was most definitely a snob. I had the questionable pleasure to read his Attic Nights last year (in both the original and a mid-19th-century German translation).
    But he is no match for classical philologists (in particular German ones). Latin is Cicero, nothing else. And even parts of his works get criticised as not up to standard (and his letters have to be kept out of the hands of students lest they get infected by the abominable vernacular he uses there).

  212. Aulus Gellius was most definitely a snob. I had the questionable pleasure to read his Attic Nights last year (in both the original and a mid-19th-century German translation).
    But he is no match for classical philologists (in particular German ones). Latin is Cicero, nothing else. And even parts of his works get criticised as not up to standard (and his letters have to be kept out of the hands of students lest they get infected by the abominable vernacular he uses there).

  213. Thanks all for various responses. I have to admit, Janie’s comment on pronunciation caught me: I always used to pronouce homage like an English word (hom as in homily, age as in the idge of porridge), but had rather fallen into the habit recently of the American frenchification. That stops right here!
    Also, I do completely agree about the punching up. There are institutions which should be (and hold themselves out to be) acting as bastions of correctness, so it seems to me absolutely right to point it out when they fuck up in a way one wouldn’t to a less educated person making an easily understandable point. I also think it’s vital to keep reminding oneself of distinctions of meaning: I think “disinterested” versus “uninterested” may be a lost cause, but I’m not giving up on it yet.

  214. Thanks all for various responses. I have to admit, Janie’s comment on pronunciation caught me: I always used to pronouce homage like an English word (hom as in homily, age as in the idge of porridge), but had rather fallen into the habit recently of the American frenchification. That stops right here!
    Also, I do completely agree about the punching up. There are institutions which should be (and hold themselves out to be) acting as bastions of correctness, so it seems to me absolutely right to point it out when they fuck up in a way one wouldn’t to a less educated person making an easily understandable point. I also think it’s vital to keep reminding oneself of distinctions of meaning: I think “disinterested” versus “uninterested” may be a lost cause, but I’m not giving up on it yet.

  215. To my mind, “hommage” (pronounced in French) and “homage” (pronounced as GftNC says) are two different words from the same root, the former being expression of esteem for another artist by including some element of his work in one’s own.
    Similarly “auteur” and “author”.

  216. To my mind, “hommage” (pronounced in French) and “homage” (pronounced as GftNC says) are two different words from the same root, the former being expression of esteem for another artist by including some element of his work in one’s own.
    Similarly “auteur” and “author”.

  217. One of the challenges with English grammar, at least as taught to us in the middle of the last century, was that it was still trying to take a Germanic language and force it into a Latin grammatical structure. There are enough borrowings from (Norman) French to give occasional plausibility, but mostly not.
    I suspect that a lot of children simply decided that grammar was nonsense. All grammar, unfortunately — because there really is a proper grammar for English . . . just not the one that they tried to teach us.
    One classic example: never use a preposition to end a sentence with.** Or, famously: “This is the sort of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put!”
    English: what happens when Norman men at arms are trying to pick up Saxon bar girls.
    ** OK, that’s not proper in German either. But it IS normal English.

  218. One of the challenges with English grammar, at least as taught to us in the middle of the last century, was that it was still trying to take a Germanic language and force it into a Latin grammatical structure. There are enough borrowings from (Norman) French to give occasional plausibility, but mostly not.
    I suspect that a lot of children simply decided that grammar was nonsense. All grammar, unfortunately — because there really is a proper grammar for English . . . just not the one that they tried to teach us.
    One classic example: never use a preposition to end a sentence with.** Or, famously: “This is the sort of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put!”
    English: what happens when Norman men at arms are trying to pick up Saxon bar girls.
    ** OK, that’s not proper in German either. But it IS normal English.

  219. Hmmm, Pro Bono, now that you mention it all my uses of homage in the last few years of Frenchification have been of your former kind. I would never say “I want to pay homage to….” and pronounce it the Frenchified way. Janie, as the bringer-up and the usage police, what do you think of this distinction?

  220. Hmmm, Pro Bono, now that you mention it all my uses of homage in the last few years of Frenchification have been of your former kind. I would never say “I want to pay homage to….” and pronounce it the Frenchified way. Janie, as the bringer-up and the usage police, what do you think of this distinction?

  223. … Mr. McGahn answered the special counsel team’s questions fulsomely…
    Is “fulsomely” in the local dialect a synonym for “fully”?

  224. … Mr. McGahn answered the special counsel team’s questions fulsomely…
    Is “fulsomely” in the local dialect a synonym for “fully”?

  227. Janie, as the bringer-up and the usage police, what do you think of this distinction?
    I need to be only the now and then usage police, so I’ll leave that one alone. 😉
    wj’s “larding his testimony,” however, seems like a keeper.

  228. Janie, as the bringer-up and the usage police, what do you think of this distinction?
    I need to be only the now and then usage police, so I’ll leave that one alone. 😉
    wj’s “larding his testimony,” however, seems like a keeper.

  229. I need to be only the now and then usage police, so I’ll leave that one alone. 😉
    Yes, sorry! I did hesitate, but it’s hard not to take advantage….

  230. I need to be only the now and then usage police, so I’ll leave that one alone. 😉
    Yes, sorry! I did hesitate, but it’s hard not to take advantage….

  231. wj’s “larding his testimony,” however, seems like a keeper.
    Takes a bow or three. (That’s “bow” as in genuflect. Not as in bow tie or bow and arrow.)

  232. wj’s “larding his testimony,” however, seems like a keeper.
    Takes a bow or three. (That’s “bow” as in genuflect. Not as in bow tie or bow and arrow.)

  233. Fulsome is one of those words which has almost completely reversed its meaning over time… cf Twelfth Night:
    It is as fat and fulsome to mine ear, As howling after musick…

  234. Fulsome is one of those words which has almost completely reversed its meaning over time… cf Twelfth Night:
    It is as fat and fulsome to mine ear, As howling after musick…

  235. ‘hommage’ was, I think, originally used semi-ironically in the film industry to indicate pretentious reference to the work of a famous antecedent.
    Similarly ‘auteur’ is a direct borrowing from the French, who took directors’ claims to artistry rather more seriously than did we at one time.

  236. ‘hommage’ was, I think, originally used semi-ironically in the film industry to indicate pretentious reference to the work of a famous antecedent.
    Similarly ‘auteur’ is a direct borrowing from the French, who took directors’ claims to artistry rather more seriously than did we at one time.

  237. one of those words which has almost completely reversed its meaning over time
    see also: livid
    it meant pale. now it’s as likely to be used to mean flushed.

  238. one of those words which has almost completely reversed its meaning over time
    see also: livid
    it meant pale. now it’s as likely to be used to mean flushed.

  239. Silly too has an interesting evolution:
    late Middle English (in the sense ‘deserving of pity or sympathy’): alteration of dialect seely ‘happy,’ later ‘innocent, feeble,’ from a West Germanic base meaning ‘luck, happiness.’ The sense ‘foolish’ developed via the stages ‘feeble’ and ‘unsophisticated, ignorant.’

  240. Silly too has an interesting evolution:
    late Middle English (in the sense ‘deserving of pity or sympathy’): alteration of dialect seely ‘happy,’ later ‘innocent, feeble,’ from a West Germanic base meaning ‘luck, happiness.’ The sense ‘foolish’ developed via the stages ‘feeble’ and ‘unsophisticated, ignorant.’

  241. French is so troublesome! I once heard a speaker give a talk in which he said nitch, neetch, and neesh in the space of half an hour. Why does no one get all anxious about not mispronouncing words that might be from the Spanish or German?
    (Rhetorical question. Joke, actually.)

  242. French is so troublesome! I once heard a speaker give a talk in which he said nitch, neetch, and neesh in the space of half an hour. Why does no one get all anxious about not mispronouncing words that might be from the Spanish or German?
    (Rhetorical question. Joke, actually.)

  243. “Silly sooth” in Shakespeare meant, I recall, simple truth.
    And larding occurs in Henry V:
    In which array, brave soldier, doth he lie,
    Larding the plain; and by his bloody side,
    Yoke-fellow to his honour-owing wounds,
    The noble Earl of Suffolk also lies.

  244. “Silly sooth” in Shakespeare meant, I recall, simple truth.
    And larding occurs in Henry V:
    In which array, brave soldier, doth he lie,
    Larding the plain; and by his bloody side,
    Yoke-fellow to his honour-owing wounds,
    The noble Earl of Suffolk also lies.

  245. And through it all, we have people who get hysterical because they hear someone speaking a language other than English. (Mostly Spanish, but they appear to be similarly unhappy about other languages — even when spoken by obvious tourists.) While blithely innocent of the number of “English” words which were borrowed from elsewhere.
    To be fair, lots of people elsewhere are similarly irate at the number of borrowings from English which are creeping into their languages. Life is really difficult when things just won’t stay totally unchanging for a lifetime!

  246. And through it all, we have people who get hysterical because they hear someone speaking a language other than English. (Mostly Spanish, but they appear to be similarly unhappy about other languages — even when spoken by obvious tourists.) While blithely innocent of the number of “English” words which were borrowed from elsewhere.
    To be fair, lots of people elsewhere are similarly irate at the number of borrowings from English which are creeping into their languages. Life is really difficult when things just won’t stay totally unchanging for a lifetime!

  247. A wry story involving Spanish — when the Best Buy chain came to Central Maine, it was the first store (and may still be the only one; I’ve stopped paying attention) that had big hanging signs showing the departments of the store in both English and Spanish.
    The irony was that the number of Spanish speakers in Central Maine is (or at least was) vanishingly small, while Maine did still have pockets of older generation French speakers, and the major ethnic “minority” was the Francos. (Who seem to hold a place here a lot like the one the “Italians” held where I grew up.)
    And for that matter, lots of tourists come here from Quebec.
    No doubt Best Buy was trying to do something good, but then they did a half-assed job by not bothering to find out which language might actually be useful in any region of the country.
    It’s always fun nowadays to see the lists of languages for which help is available by phone in doctor’s offices, in the ER, even in Lowe’s. Lots of interesting scripts in this world….

  248. A wry story involving Spanish — when the Best Buy chain came to Central Maine, it was the first store (and may still be the only one; I’ve stopped paying attention) that had big hanging signs showing the departments of the store in both English and Spanish.
    The irony was that the number of Spanish speakers in Central Maine is (or at least was) vanishingly small, while Maine did still have pockets of older generation French speakers, and the major ethnic “minority” was the Francos. (Who seem to hold a place here a lot like the one the “Italians” held where I grew up.)
    And for that matter, lots of tourists come here from Quebec.
    No doubt Best Buy was trying to do something good, but then they did a half-assed job by not bothering to find out which language might actually be useful in any region of the country.
    It’s always fun nowadays to see the lists of languages for which help is available by phone in doctor’s offices, in the ER, even in Lowe’s. Lots of interesting scripts in this world….

  251. one of those words which has almost completely reversed its meaning over time
    These are always fun and to me, indicate how the human mind can deal with a near infinite number of logical inconsistencies. I tell students that words that are at the far end of a spectrum are liable to do this, so in Japanese, the pronoun/term of address omae used to be an honorific pronoun and now means something that you say to start a fight.
    https://www.japanesewithanime.com/2017/08/anata-omae-kimi-kisama-meaning.html
    My personal fave (in English) is awful, which originally meant, as you might guess ‘full of awe’, but now means terrible, a meaning that came about in the late 18th/early 19th century
    https://www.etymonline.com/word/awful
    and I imagine some wag noting that someone else’s bad characteristic is so bad that it inspires awe. Kind of like Guiliani here
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/giuliani-says-trump-tower-meeting-was-for-getting-information-about-clinton
    You listen to that, and you realize you are in the presence of stupidity so total that you can only be in awe.

  252. one of those words which has almost completely reversed its meaning over time
    These are always fun and to me, indicate how the human mind can deal with a near infinite number of logical inconsistencies. I tell students that words that are at the far end of a spectrum are liable to do this, so in Japanese, the pronoun/term of address omae used to be an honorific pronoun and now means something that you say to start a fight.
    https://www.japanesewithanime.com/2017/08/anata-omae-kimi-kisama-meaning.html
    My personal fave (in English) is awful, which originally meant, as you might guess ‘full of awe’, but now means terrible, a meaning that came about in the late 18th/early 19th century
    https://www.etymonline.com/word/awful
    and I imagine some wag noting that someone else’s bad characteristic is so bad that it inspires awe. Kind of like Guiliani here
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/giuliani-says-trump-tower-meeting-was-for-getting-information-about-clinton
    You listen to that, and you realize you are in the presence of stupidity so total that you can only be in awe.

  253. Weighing in on the rap side of the discussion because I’ve been looking at it a lot in the past few weeks doing research for a writing class I’m considering that centers around the different types and audiences for writing about music. Visited a bunch of pages featuring rap analysis and learned a lot about the form. Here’s some verses and songs to show the artistry:
    Mos Def’s vocabulary – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd5gCqZePPY
    Zack de la Rocha’s literacy – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU1jVYXytcQ
    Slug’s buildup – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZzAe5gi_jI
    Pharoahe Monch’s polyrhythms – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swf8so2na-Y
    Andre 3000s breaking the bar – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXAiEIwA9_s
    MF Doom’s sheer density of rhyme – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9mZkc2RPOU
    Low doggerel quotient throughout.

  254. Weighing in on the rap side of the discussion because I’ve been looking at it a lot in the past few weeks doing research for a writing class I’m considering that centers around the different types and audiences for writing about music. Visited a bunch of pages featuring rap analysis and learned a lot about the form. Here’s some verses and songs to show the artistry:
    Mos Def’s vocabulary – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd5gCqZePPY
    Zack de la Rocha’s literacy – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU1jVYXytcQ
    Slug’s buildup – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZzAe5gi_jI
    Pharoahe Monch’s polyrhythms – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swf8so2na-Y
    Andre 3000s breaking the bar – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXAiEIwA9_s
    MF Doom’s sheer density of rhyme – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9mZkc2RPOU
    Low doggerel quotient throughout.

  257. wj, while he did say that, Chuck Todd interrupted his explanation of that, which made perfect sense. So from a legal standpoint do they want Trump under oath disagreeing with Comey, or anyone, so who is Mueller going to charge with perjury? No matter what truth may lie between.
    But of course Todd had his sound bite so he started making his stupid faces and talking over Giuliani.
    I despise Trump more every day, and sti find reasons almost every day to hate the media more.
    But then America was never great, just ask Cuomo.

  258. wj, while he did say that, Chuck Todd interrupted his explanation of that, which made perfect sense. So from a legal standpoint do they want Trump under oath disagreeing with Comey, or anyone, so who is Mueller going to charge with perjury? No matter what truth may lie between.
    But of course Todd had his sound bite so he started making his stupid faces and talking over Giuliani.
    I despise Trump more every day, and sti find reasons almost every day to hate the media more.
    But then America was never great, just ask Cuomo.

  263. To be fair, lots of people elsewhere are similarly irate at the number of borrowings from English which are creeping into their languages.
    Irate may be too strong a word but I find it annoying when ‘foreign’ words get adopted without any need because there are already perfectly servicable ‘domestic’ ones.
    The worst offenders are advertisers (and the Deutsche Bahn AG), often using English words in such a misguided way that the result is incomprehensible to both German and English speakers.
    No problem with me when the newcomers actually add something and be it just a nuance. E.g. ‘fake’ is used in German with a narrower meaning than in English and fills a gap.
    An interesting area are words that get introduced because the concept they describe is new. Some later get translated and replaced, others coexist with translations, others stay and the translations are only used by hardcore purists (that unmask themselves by doing so).

  264. To be fair, lots of people elsewhere are similarly irate at the number of borrowings from English which are creeping into their languages.
    Irate may be too strong a word but I find it annoying when ‘foreign’ words get adopted without any need because there are already perfectly servicable ‘domestic’ ones.
    The worst offenders are advertisers (and the Deutsche Bahn AG), often using English words in such a misguided way that the result is incomprehensible to both German and English speakers.
    No problem with me when the newcomers actually add something and be it just a nuance. E.g. ‘fake’ is used in German with a narrower meaning than in English and fills a gap.
    An interesting area are words that get introduced because the concept they describe is new. Some later get translated and replaced, others coexist with translations, others stay and the translations are only used by hardcore purists (that unmask themselves by doing so).

  265. So from a legal standpoint do they want Trump under oath disagreeing with Comey, or anyone
    disagreement isn’t perjury.
    lying is.

  266. So from a legal standpoint do they want Trump under oath disagreeing with Comey, or anyone
    disagreement isn’t perjury.
    lying is.

  267. From a legal standpoint, it would be ill-advised for Trump to testify on oath, since he lies about everything.
    But epistemological statements about the nature of truth have got nothing to do with it. To be convicted of perjury you have to tell a demonstrable lie. Which of course Trump does almost every time he says anything.

  268. From a legal standpoint, it would be ill-advised for Trump to testify on oath, since he lies about everything.
    But epistemological statements about the nature of truth have got nothing to do with it. To be convicted of perjury you have to tell a demonstrable lie. Which of course Trump does almost every time he says anything.

  269. My personal fave (in English) is awful, which originally meant, as you might guess ‘full of awe’, but now means terrible, a meaning that came about in the late 18th/early 19th century.
    Yeah. Awful used to mean something more like terrific. But terrific meant something more like terrible. I’m so confused. I might be nonplussed, if I could make up my mind about which definition of nonplussed should apply.
    Something that drives me crazy, pretty much only seen in written English: lightening/lightning confusion. I hate that!

  270. My personal fave (in English) is awful, which originally meant, as you might guess ‘full of awe’, but now means terrible, a meaning that came about in the late 18th/early 19th century.
    Yeah. Awful used to mean something more like terrific. But terrific meant something more like terrible. I’m so confused. I might be nonplussed, if I could make up my mind about which definition of nonplussed should apply.
    Something that drives me crazy, pretty much only seen in written English: lightening/lightning confusion. I hate that!

  271. Oh, and pronouncing the white condiment used on sandwiches and in salads as “may-naze.” I might actually kill someone over that someday.

  272. Oh, and pronouncing the white condiment used on sandwiches and in salads as “may-naze.” I might actually kill someone over that someday.

  273. since we seem to be interested in considering statemrnts in their full context, the rest of the cuomo quote:
    We have not reached greatness. We will reach greatness when every American is fully engaged.
    giuliani is wise to avoid having trump speak under oath if it can be avoided. giuliani would be even wiser to quit making his own public statements. he’s not doing his client any favors. or himself, for that matter.
    conservatives need to burn their party down and start over. the things you say you stand for are not on offer from the gop.

  274. since we seem to be interested in considering statemrnts in their full context, the rest of the cuomo quote:
    We have not reached greatness. We will reach greatness when every American is fully engaged.
    giuliani is wise to avoid having trump speak under oath if it can be avoided. giuliani would be even wiser to quit making his own public statements. he’s not doing his client any favors. or himself, for that matter.
    conservatives need to burn their party down and start over. the things you say you stand for are not on offer from the gop.

  275. I’d give both Cuomo and Giuliani bad grades for putting forth bad sound-bites with their wording, regardless of the broader context of what they were saying. It’s a tough gig, but they both signed up for it. What’s up with these New Yorkers, anyway?

  276. I’d give both Cuomo and Giuliani bad grades for putting forth bad sound-bites with their wording, regardless of the broader context of what they were saying. It’s a tough gig, but they both signed up for it. What’s up with these New Yorkers, anyway?

  277. I hate Cuomo like someone or other here hates mayonnaise, (I hate mp like I would hate mayonnaise if the condiment was made from dog shit) but I took the former’s “America was never that great” comment somewhat like a a guy boasting to his marriage counselor that his sexual performance was “Great!” throughout his relationship with his wife and his wife rolling her eyes and announcing “It was NEVER that great!” and then divorce proceedings commencing soon thereafter, especially after the wife learned her husband also had an overdrawn secret bank account and hadn’t been paying the mortgage.
    To some, the boast “Mother Russia” sounds right. To others, “Motherfucking Russia” is more to the point.
    Muhammad Ali was the only human being who I recall being able to bring off the “I am the “Greatest!” comment with some sense of accuracy but also a wink of self-awareness.
    America, it’s asshole jagoff side, can’t bring that off, being an insecure little get, as a class of humans. When John Lennon quips that the Beatles were “more popular than Jesus”, America immediately brings out the “not That great” persona underpinning our boasts, sieg heils, and starts burning records, books, and effigies and pretty soon bullet holes are found everywhere, we dumb fucks.
    mp is the Greatest personification and apotheosis of America’s not very great underpinning, the low sniveling dog. And the pack of baying leg-humping canine mutts who installed him should be assumed to be infected with the same rabies.

  278. I hate Cuomo like someone or other here hates mayonnaise, (I hate mp like I would hate mayonnaise if the condiment was made from dog shit) but I took the former’s “America was never that great” comment somewhat like a a guy boasting to his marriage counselor that his sexual performance was “Great!” throughout his relationship with his wife and his wife rolling her eyes and announcing “It was NEVER that great!” and then divorce proceedings commencing soon thereafter, especially after the wife learned her husband also had an overdrawn secret bank account and hadn’t been paying the mortgage.
    To some, the boast “Mother Russia” sounds right. To others, “Motherfucking Russia” is more to the point.
    Muhammad Ali was the only human being who I recall being able to bring off the “I am the “Greatest!” comment with some sense of accuracy but also a wink of self-awareness.
    America, it’s asshole jagoff side, can’t bring that off, being an insecure little get, as a class of humans. When John Lennon quips that the Beatles were “more popular than Jesus”, America immediately brings out the “not That great” persona underpinning our boasts, sieg heils, and starts burning records, books, and effigies and pretty soon bullet holes are found everywhere, we dumb fucks.
    mp is the Greatest personification and apotheosis of America’s not very great underpinning, the low sniveling dog. And the pack of baying leg-humping canine mutts who installed him should be assumed to be infected with the same rabies.

  279. A dirty guy attempting to spit polish something, like a dog licking itself in public:
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/giuliani-tries-to-clean-up-truth-isnt-truth-comment
    May I suggest, instead of “Truth isn’t Truth”:
    The Vicinity of Truth
    The Neighborhood of Truth
    A gigantic piece of space junk called Truth in orbit around the Planet of the Liars. Gravity beckons.
    Truth: The Ping Pong ball under one of three cups and a republican with fast hands working the crowd.
    Truth: Like the Big Dipper constellation viewed from a different planet …. now it’s a horse’s ass.
    Truth: Here’s a shovel. Start digging for Jimmy Hoffa. (Hint: Jimmy Hoffa wasn’t buried)
    This way to the Egress
    Pravda.

  280. A dirty guy attempting to spit polish something, like a dog licking itself in public:
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/giuliani-tries-to-clean-up-truth-isnt-truth-comment
    May I suggest, instead of “Truth isn’t Truth”:
    The Vicinity of Truth
    The Neighborhood of Truth
    A gigantic piece of space junk called Truth in orbit around the Planet of the Liars. Gravity beckons.
    Truth: The Ping Pong ball under one of three cups and a republican with fast hands working the crowd.
    Truth: Like the Big Dipper constellation viewed from a different planet …. now it’s a horse’s ass.
    Truth: Here’s a shovel. Start digging for Jimmy Hoffa. (Hint: Jimmy Hoffa wasn’t buried)
    This way to the Egress
    Pravda.

  281. In my youth, I (and my sibs) pronounced “mayonnaise” to rhyme with “man daze”. Though I’ve adopted a trisyllabic pronunciation by now, I’m in no position to complain about anyone else’s version.

  282. In my youth, I (and my sibs) pronounced “mayonnaise” to rhyme with “man daze”. Though I’ve adopted a trisyllabic pronunciation by now, I’m in no position to complain about anyone else’s version.

  283. Oh, and pronouncing the white condiment used on sandwiches and in salads as “may-naze.” I might actually kill someone over that someday.
    I’ve always pronounced it “man-aze”. As do those around me — well except for those who just say mayo. Never saw a reason to change.

  284. Oh, and pronouncing the white condiment used on sandwiches and in salads as “may-naze.” I might actually kill someone over that someday.
    I’ve always pronounced it “man-aze”. As do those around me — well except for those who just say mayo. Never saw a reason to change.

  285. Nous and others, this may also be interesting, vocabulary size of rappers
    “>https://pudding.cool/2017/02/vocabulary/index.html
    That chart underlines one of the reasons why I prefer East Coast rap (though Outkast make a case for the ATL).
    What gets me about Mos Def’s vocab is not the number of unique words that he uses in his rap, but the number of polysyllabic rhymes he throws into his lines. It lends his flow a sense of sophistication.
    The big surprise for me in my listening, however, was Pharoahe Monch. The way he plays with tempo and expectation and rhythm is so complex, and he does it in rap battles under time constraint.

  286. Nous and others, this may also be interesting, vocabulary size of rappers
    “>https://pudding.cool/2017/02/vocabulary/index.html
    That chart underlines one of the reasons why I prefer East Coast rap (though Outkast make a case for the ATL).
    What gets me about Mos Def’s vocab is not the number of unique words that he uses in his rap, but the number of polysyllabic rhymes he throws into his lines. It lends his flow a sense of sophistication.
    The big surprise for me in my listening, however, was Pharoahe Monch. The way he plays with tempo and expectation and rhythm is so complex, and he does it in rap battles under time constraint.

  287. Bi- or tri-syllabic is fine, so long as it’s not “may” and bi-syllabic. “May” is alright so long as there’s an “o” in the middle. I got no beef with “man-naze,” and I wouldn’t put it on beef, anyway.
    (I know none of this is going to help kids in cages, but still.)

  288. Bi- or tri-syllabic is fine, so long as it’s not “may” and bi-syllabic. “May” is alright so long as there’s an “o” in the middle. I got no beef with “man-naze,” and I wouldn’t put it on beef, anyway.
    (I know none of this is going to help kids in cages, but still.)

  291. “Trump would be a fool to talk to Mueller” . . . because he would either destroy himself by repeatedly taking the 5th (his best option), get caught in multiple lies (i.e. repeated perjury), or incriminate himself by testifying truthfully (which makes the wild assumption that he has a clue what the truth is).
    The problem is, he may get a subpoena. It would take a while to get appealed to the Supreme Court. But he would be stuck.

  292. “Trump would be a fool to talk to Mueller” . . . because he would either destroy himself by repeatedly taking the 5th (his best option), get caught in multiple lies (i.e. repeated perjury), or incriminate himself by testifying truthfully (which makes the wild assumption that he has a clue what the truth is).
    The problem is, he may get a subpoena. It would take a while to get appealed to the Supreme Court. But he would be stuck.

  293. Or he could testify truthfully and still get charged with perjury. No one playing is completely without an agenda. Best case, and maybe most probable case, Mueller is just a prosecutor whose job it is to find a way to prosecute. I simply dont think he is above bringing that case and letting the chips fall, even if its a bad one.

  294. Or he could testify truthfully and still get charged with perjury. No one playing is completely without an agenda. Best case, and maybe most probable case, Mueller is just a prosecutor whose job it is to find a way to prosecute. I simply dont think he is above bringing that case and letting the chips fall, even if its a bad one.

  295. Marty,
    For someone who despises He, Trump you sure seem inclined to believe (or at least, proclaim) that He is unfairly put-upon by scheming Republicans like Mueller.
    When He, Trump declared He could shoot somebody on 5th Ave and not lose any support, was He talking about yours?
    –TP

  296. Marty,
    For someone who despises He, Trump you sure seem inclined to believe (or at least, proclaim) that He is unfairly put-upon by scheming Republicans like Mueller.
    When He, Trump declared He could shoot somebody on 5th Ave and not lose any support, was He talking about yours?
    –TP

  297. How does one testify truthfully and get charged with perjury? Even a prosecutor who is willing to push the envelope (and there is absolutely no evidence that Meuller is) is going to hesitate to do that.
    We’ve already seen that there’s no shortage of possible prosecutions available. To believe that Mueller would embark on a weak case here, you’d have to buy the fantasy that the whole thing is a political witch hunt. Even though it’s being run by a guy who, when he was appointed, got lots of praise from Republicans.
    For example, House Oversight and Government Reform Chairman Jason Chaffetz, R-Utah, tweeted “Mueller is a great selection. Impeccable credentials. Should be widely accepted.” Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY): “I have a lot of confidence in Bob Mueller. I think it was a good choice.”
    The only thing that has changed is that it turns out that the Trump campaign wasn’t as pure as it claimed.

  298. How does one testify truthfully and get charged with perjury? Even a prosecutor who is willing to push the envelope (and there is absolutely no evidence that Meuller is) is going to hesitate to do that.
    We’ve already seen that there’s no shortage of possible prosecutions available. To believe that Mueller would embark on a weak case here, you’d have to buy the fantasy that the whole thing is a political witch hunt. Even though it’s being run by a guy who, when he was appointed, got lots of praise from Republicans.
    For example, House Oversight and Government Reform Chairman Jason Chaffetz, R-Utah, tweeted “Mueller is a great selection. Impeccable credentials. Should be widely accepted.” Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY): “I have a lot of confidence in Bob Mueller. I think it was a good choice.”
    The only thing that has changed is that it turns out that the Trump campaign wasn’t as pure as it claimed.

  299. T,
    I simply dont believe, as I have said, that there is any evidence he colluded with the Russian government to influence the election. Even though they were both working toward that end. Nor do I think he has obstructed justice beyond a legal self defense. I dont think he was unfairly put upon in general, nor do I, at this point, think Mueller is a bad guy. His job is to find reasons to prosecute.
    I think Trump is lots of bad things, named them before, but I dont think he did those two things. Mueller may come up with evidence to prove me wrong.
    I think the press, in general, has been more biased than ever, making it difficult to find a news source to rely on.

  300. T,
    I simply dont believe, as I have said, that there is any evidence he colluded with the Russian government to influence the election. Even though they were both working toward that end. Nor do I think he has obstructed justice beyond a legal self defense. I dont think he was unfairly put upon in general, nor do I, at this point, think Mueller is a bad guy. His job is to find reasons to prosecute.
    I think Trump is lots of bad things, named them before, but I dont think he did those two things. Mueller may come up with evidence to prove me wrong.
    I think the press, in general, has been more biased than ever, making it difficult to find a news source to rely on.

  301. wj, see last comment. Plus, people have a variety of allegiances beyond party, Muellers to Comey is problematic. People have recused themselves for less.
    But that was not my point,his job is to prosecute, so yes a weak case against the President is better than all those other possibilities.

  302. wj, see last comment. Plus, people have a variety of allegiances beyond party, Muellers to Comey is problematic. People have recused themselves for less.
    But that was not my point,his job is to prosecute, so yes a weak case against the President is better than all those other possibilities.

  303. His job is to find reasons to prosecute.
    actually, his job is to investigate the events under consideration to see if further action is indicated or not. and, if and only if so, to take or at least initiate that further action.
    you are assuming a bias toward prosecution on his part, i don’t think that’s in evidence.
    I think the press, in general, has been more biased than ever, making it difficult to find a news source to rely on.
    there are reasonably good sources,it just takes more work to weed through the BS.
    first step – turn off the TV.
    it’s true, we all miss walter cronkite.

  304. His job is to find reasons to prosecute.
    actually, his job is to investigate the events under consideration to see if further action is indicated or not. and, if and only if so, to take or at least initiate that further action.
    you are assuming a bias toward prosecution on his part, i don’t think that’s in evidence.
    I think the press, in general, has been more biased than ever, making it difficult to find a news source to rely on.
    there are reasonably good sources,it just takes more work to weed through the BS.
    first step – turn off the TV.
    it’s true, we all miss walter cronkite.

  305. nor do I, at this point, think Mueller is a bad guy. His job is to find reasons to prosecute.
    What Russell said.

  306. nor do I, at this point, think Mueller is a bad guy. His job is to find reasons to prosecute.
    What Russell said.

  307. Don’t want to pile on, but I would draw your attention Marty, to this article
    https://www.newsandguts.com/listen-to-the-spymasters/
    I point this out because I’ve also read, both here and in other places, about how it is unseeming/short sighted/hypocritical/your adjective here for liberals and progressives who claim to be against US intelligence services and the things that the CIA has done to hold up people like Clapper and Brennan as paragons of virtue. I don’t feel this way, because I feel, first of all, that the debate has progressed (or more accurately lowered itself) to a place where to counter Trump, anyone cited has to be presented as totally beyond reproach. That, in some ways, is the genius of Trump, to create a debate where the mere acknowledgement that someone held up has some flaw or fault, this automatically disqualifies them and everything is reduced to a question of whether people are unbiased, as we see in this discussion of Mueller.
    Referenced in that article is this youtube video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96yWsrMXREI
    If you’ve only heard soundbites, Marty, you may want to listen to the whole thing.

  308. Don’t want to pile on, but I would draw your attention Marty, to this article
    https://www.newsandguts.com/listen-to-the-spymasters/
    I point this out because I’ve also read, both here and in other places, about how it is unseeming/short sighted/hypocritical/your adjective here for liberals and progressives who claim to be against US intelligence services and the things that the CIA has done to hold up people like Clapper and Brennan as paragons of virtue. I don’t feel this way, because I feel, first of all, that the debate has progressed (or more accurately lowered itself) to a place where to counter Trump, anyone cited has to be presented as totally beyond reproach. That, in some ways, is the genius of Trump, to create a debate where the mere acknowledgement that someone held up has some flaw or fault, this automatically disqualifies them and everything is reduced to a question of whether people are unbiased, as we see in this discussion of Mueller.
    Referenced in that article is this youtube video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96yWsrMXREI
    If you’ve only heard soundbites, Marty, you may want to listen to the whole thing.

  309. Brennan and Claper are Democratic talking heads. The Krugmans of the spy game. And Brennan has been pilloried individually by the left. Once you call the President a traitor on national TV then go on the next week and admit you’ve seen no evidence to back that up, in fact no evidence of any of the accusations, You really shouldn’t have access to any classified info. That happened this Sunday as part of his “defense”. I know people who have clearances revoked for lots less.

  310. Brennan and Claper are Democratic talking heads. The Krugmans of the spy game. And Brennan has been pilloried individually by the left. Once you call the President a traitor on national TV then go on the next week and admit you’ve seen no evidence to back that up, in fact no evidence of any of the accusations, You really shouldn’t have access to any classified info. That happened this Sunday as part of his “defense”. I know people who have clearances revoked for lots less.

  311. russell, Mueller has brought charges against 18? Russians he cant touch and a few Americans, none on anything remotely resembling collusion. He is doing what prosecutors do, finding ways to prosecute people. Cant get them for x, let’s try to get them for whatever we can. Who could help with that? What can we charge them with?
    It is the current state of acceptable prosecutorial conduct that people have lauded Mueller for being so good at. In the articles about his team the main point was how good they had been at that in mostly white collar crime cases.
    That’s not deciding if further action is warranted. It’s deciding if further action is possible.

  312. russell, Mueller has brought charges against 18? Russians he cant touch and a few Americans, none on anything remotely resembling collusion. He is doing what prosecutors do, finding ways to prosecute people. Cant get them for x, let’s try to get them for whatever we can. Who could help with that? What can we charge them with?
    It is the current state of acceptable prosecutorial conduct that people have lauded Mueller for being so good at. In the articles about his team the main point was how good they had been at that in mostly white collar crime cases.
    That’s not deciding if further action is warranted. It’s deciding if further action is possible.

  313. Brennan and Claper are Democratic talking heads.
    I’m not a fan of either of them, but this is ridiculous.
    Also, FWIW, here are the guidelines for revoking a security clearance. Notable for its absence is making statements about the POTUS, good bad or indifferent.
    Granting or denying security clearances for political reasons short of disloyalty to the nation – i.e., criticizing the POTUS – is unusual to the point of being extraordinary, if not alarming.

  314. Brennan and Claper are Democratic talking heads.
    I’m not a fan of either of them, but this is ridiculous.
    Also, FWIW, here are the guidelines for revoking a security clearance. Notable for its absence is making statements about the POTUS, good bad or indifferent.
    Granting or denying security clearances for political reasons short of disloyalty to the nation – i.e., criticizing the POTUS – is unusual to the point of being extraordinary, if not alarming.

  315. russell, Mueller has brought charges against 18? Russians he cant touch and a few Americans, none on anything remotely resembling collusion.
    Mueller’s brief as stated in the authorization for the investigation includes pursuing any criminal activity he uncovers in the process of investigating co-operation with Russian interference in the election.
    He found criminal activity. He pursued it.
    As far as the magic word ‘collusion’, principals of Trump’s campaign and members of his immediate family (an overlapping collection of people) met with Russian nationals who have clear links to Putin. The Russians offered oppo research on Clinton based on illegally obtained emails. They wanted favorable reconsideration of the Magnitsky Act. Magnitsky is significant because it prevents Russian kleptocrats – including Putin and his pals – from getting at their ill-gotten money.
    Gee, is there a word that describes that?
    Collusion is a given. It has not only been demonstrated, it has been plainly and publicly admitted to by the parties involved. Collusion per se is not, remotely, in question.
    Collusion per se is not a crime. The questions that remain open are the degree to which the actions of the folks involved violated any of a variety of laws, and the degree to which this all went on with Trump’s knowledge and consent.
    I’m sure we’ll hear more about all of that in the next few months.

  316. russell, Mueller has brought charges against 18? Russians he cant touch and a few Americans, none on anything remotely resembling collusion.
    Mueller’s brief as stated in the authorization for the investigation includes pursuing any criminal activity he uncovers in the process of investigating co-operation with Russian interference in the election.
    He found criminal activity. He pursued it.
    As far as the magic word ‘collusion’, principals of Trump’s campaign and members of his immediate family (an overlapping collection of people) met with Russian nationals who have clear links to Putin. The Russians offered oppo research on Clinton based on illegally obtained emails. They wanted favorable reconsideration of the Magnitsky Act. Magnitsky is significant because it prevents Russian kleptocrats – including Putin and his pals – from getting at their ill-gotten money.
    Gee, is there a word that describes that?
    Collusion is a given. It has not only been demonstrated, it has been plainly and publicly admitted to by the parties involved. Collusion per se is not, remotely, in question.
    Collusion per se is not a crime. The questions that remain open are the degree to which the actions of the folks involved violated any of a variety of laws, and the degree to which this all went on with Trump’s knowledge and consent.
    I’m sure we’ll hear more about all of that in the next few months.

  317. russell, interestingly there is a link at the end of the article that defines who should have a clearance. Brennan and Clapper meet none of the criteria. Most former employees keep clearances because they might be called upon again, perhaps as a consultant. Unlikely for those two at this point.
    https://fas.org/sgp/clinton/eo12968.html

  318. russell, interestingly there is a link at the end of the article that defines who should have a clearance. Brennan and Clapper meet none of the criteria. Most former employees keep clearances because they might be called upon again, perhaps as a consultant. Unlikely for those two at this point.
    https://fas.org/sgp/clinton/eo12968.html

  319. Brennan was Director of the CIA and director of the National Terrorism Center.
    Clapper was Director of National Intelligence, director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence, and Director of the National Geo-Spatial Intelligence agency.
    It is beyond dead normal for people at that level to retain security clearances. Because they have expertise that is of value.
    As noted above, I’m not a big fan of either guy, but they know their onions. Too bad for Trump – and the rest of us – if he doesn’t want to take advantage of that.
    Trump pulled their clearances because they criticized him. It’s more – way way way more – than unusual for the POTUS to wade into the granting or denying of security clearances, and even more so when the issue is so obviously a matter of partisan politics.
    There is a reason that the intel and law enforcement communities try to keep partisan politics out of this stuff.
    Trump’s behavior is utter bullshit, and you undermine your own credibility when you defend it.

  320. Brennan was Director of the CIA and director of the National Terrorism Center.
    Clapper was Director of National Intelligence, director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence, and Director of the National Geo-Spatial Intelligence agency.
    It is beyond dead normal for people at that level to retain security clearances. Because they have expertise that is of value.
    As noted above, I’m not a big fan of either guy, but they know their onions. Too bad for Trump – and the rest of us – if he doesn’t want to take advantage of that.
    Trump pulled their clearances because they criticized him. It’s more – way way way more – than unusual for the POTUS to wade into the granting or denying of security clearances, and even more so when the issue is so obviously a matter of partisan politics.
    There is a reason that the intel and law enforcement communities try to keep partisan politics out of this stuff.
    Trump’s behavior is utter bullshit, and you undermine your own credibility when you defend it.

  321. No, he pulled their clearances so it would be a problem for people inside the government to leak to them. I think the list should be longer and include a much more bipartisan group of people.
    I have become inured to the bully tactic of questioning my credibility in order to stifle all legitimate discussion in the single minded focus of getting rid of Trump. Its dangerous to silence dissent.

  322. No, he pulled their clearances so it would be a problem for people inside the government to leak to them. I think the list should be longer and include a much more bipartisan group of people.
    I have become inured to the bully tactic of questioning my credibility in order to stifle all legitimate discussion in the single minded focus of getting rid of Trump. Its dangerous to silence dissent.

  323. No, he pulled their clearances so it would be a problem for people inside the government to leak to them.
    what classified material has been leaked ?

  324. No, he pulled their clearances so it would be a problem for people inside the government to leak to them.
    what classified material has been leaked ?

  325. I simply dont believe, as I have said, that there is any evidence he colluded with the Russian government to influence the election.
    Mueller’s directive isn’t to see if Trump personally colluded. it’s to see if the Trump campaign did. and there are piles of evidence that it did. the question of whether Trump himself was involved is still not definitively answered; but every day, Trump gives us all more and more reason to think he knew and was involved.
    Its dangerous to silence dissent.
    you’re being silenced?
    try picturing a world where Trump is a Democrat. still think he’s innocent?

  326. I simply dont believe, as I have said, that there is any evidence he colluded with the Russian government to influence the election.
    Mueller’s directive isn’t to see if Trump personally colluded. it’s to see if the Trump campaign did. and there are piles of evidence that it did. the question of whether Trump himself was involved is still not definitively answered; but every day, Trump gives us all more and more reason to think he knew and was involved.
    Its dangerous to silence dissent.
    you’re being silenced?
    try picturing a world where Trump is a Democrat. still think he’s innocent?

  327. Its dangerous to silence dissent.
    Yes Marty, I am bullying and abusing you.
    There is quite a wide gap between “you may not speak” and “what you are saying is not persuasive”.
    It is miles outside of normal practice and procedure for the POTUS to get involved, personally, in either granting or revoking security clearances. It is more than miles outside of normal practice for pretty much anyone, let alone the POTUS, to do so without a substantial reason for doing so. ‘Criticizing the POTUS’ *is not* a substantial reason for doing so.
    The arguments you raise in favor of, or at least justifying, Trump’s action here all reflect Trump’s desire to silence his critics. That is not only not a strong argument in favor of his actions, it is an argument against them.
    So, if I say that you undermine your credibility when you go on with these arguments, it’s because they aren’t good arguments. They’re bad arguments. When you make bad arguments, you undermine your credibility.
    But by all means carry on, nobody here will stop you.

  328. Its dangerous to silence dissent.
    Yes Marty, I am bullying and abusing you.
    There is quite a wide gap between “you may not speak” and “what you are saying is not persuasive”.
    It is miles outside of normal practice and procedure for the POTUS to get involved, personally, in either granting or revoking security clearances. It is more than miles outside of normal practice for pretty much anyone, let alone the POTUS, to do so without a substantial reason for doing so. ‘Criticizing the POTUS’ *is not* a substantial reason for doing so.
    The arguments you raise in favor of, or at least justifying, Trump’s action here all reflect Trump’s desire to silence his critics. That is not only not a strong argument in favor of his actions, it is an argument against them.
    So, if I say that you undermine your credibility when you go on with these arguments, it’s because they aren’t good arguments. They’re bad arguments. When you make bad arguments, you undermine your credibility.
    But by all means carry on, nobody here will stop you.

  329. Shorter me:
    Based on the arguments you are presenting, justifying Trump’s revocation of Brennan and Clapper’s clearances, *I don’t think you know what you’re talking about*.
    So I don’t find your arguments credible.
    You may find it objectionable that I say that, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with bullying or silencing you.
    I just don’t think you are familiar with how clearances are handled, and why. They aren’t granted or revoked as signs of political favor or displeasure, and ought not be.

  330. Shorter me:
    Based on the arguments you are presenting, justifying Trump’s revocation of Brennan and Clapper’s clearances, *I don’t think you know what you’re talking about*.
    So I don’t find your arguments credible.
    You may find it objectionable that I say that, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with bullying or silencing you.
    I just don’t think you are familiar with how clearances are handled, and why. They aren’t granted or revoked as signs of political favor or displeasure, and ought not be.

  331. The problem is that Trump is a crook, a blowhard, a misogynist, a racist, and an ass in every personal attribute, and everyone of any intelligence involved in the governance of the United States knows it.
    If you’re going to get rid of everyone biased against Trump, in the sense of recognising the truth about him, then only the fools and the crooks will remain.

  332. The problem is that Trump is a crook, a blowhard, a misogynist, a racist, and an ass in every personal attribute, and everyone of any intelligence involved in the governance of the United States knows it.
    If you’re going to get rid of everyone biased against Trump, in the sense of recognising the truth about him, then only the fools and the crooks will remain.

  333. “If you’re going to get rid of everyone biased against Trump, in the sense of recognising the truth about him, then only the fools and the crooks will remain.”
    We’re closer than you think:
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-denies-discussing-kicking-obama-out-intel-briefings
    That mp himself and his underlings who recommend this shit have security clearances is a disgrace and reason for savage violence, which the Founders, were they here physically instead of merely by the invocation of conservative fucking seance, would not only approve but heartily participate in.
    Really. Say these words to yourselves so you can hear them out loud:
    “Traitor Donald mp and his traitorous cuck staff, who stole an American Presidential election with the publicly requested help of the Putin government, are revoking the security clearances of American public servants.”
    Then say, “Fuck me!”

  334. “If you’re going to get rid of everyone biased against Trump, in the sense of recognising the truth about him, then only the fools and the crooks will remain.”
    We’re closer than you think:
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-denies-discussing-kicking-obama-out-intel-briefings
    That mp himself and his underlings who recommend this shit have security clearances is a disgrace and reason for savage violence, which the Founders, were they here physically instead of merely by the invocation of conservative fucking seance, would not only approve but heartily participate in.
    Really. Say these words to yourselves so you can hear them out loud:
    “Traitor Donald mp and his traitorous cuck staff, who stole an American Presidential election with the publicly requested help of the Putin government, are revoking the security clearances of American public servants.”
    Then say, “Fuck me!”

  335. I have become inured to the bully tactic of questioning my credibility in order to stifle all legitimate discussion in the single minded focus of getting rid of Trump. Its dangerous to silence dissent.
    So, it’s a dangerous silencing of dissent for russell to engage in a calm argument on an obscure blog, but it’s just dandy for the president* to revoke security clearances (in a wild departure from usual practice) in a clear effort to punish dissent.
    And the argument in which russell is allegedly silencing Marty is about, wait for it, whether Clickbait has (mis)used the power of the office he besmirches every time he breathes, to silence critics. Which Marty is defending.
    Irony is dead.

  336. I have become inured to the bully tactic of questioning my credibility in order to stifle all legitimate discussion in the single minded focus of getting rid of Trump. Its dangerous to silence dissent.
    So, it’s a dangerous silencing of dissent for russell to engage in a calm argument on an obscure blog, but it’s just dandy for the president* to revoke security clearances (in a wild departure from usual practice) in a clear effort to punish dissent.
    And the argument in which russell is allegedly silencing Marty is about, wait for it, whether Clickbait has (mis)used the power of the office he besmirches every time he breathes, to silence critics. Which Marty is defending.
    Irony is dead.

  337. Pro Bono kind of beat me to it. I don’t know why it’s hard to understand that negative opinions toward someone or something, in this case Trump, aren’t necessarily a matter of bias.
    Isn’t it entirely possible that Trump and his administration are almost entirely a sh1t-show of incompetence and capriciousness? Should that receive praise?
    Imagine if Obama was doing the crap Trump is. He was pilloried for bowing for crying out loud.

  338. Pro Bono kind of beat me to it. I don’t know why it’s hard to understand that negative opinions toward someone or something, in this case Trump, aren’t necessarily a matter of bias.
    Isn’t it entirely possible that Trump and his administration are almost entirely a sh1t-show of incompetence and capriciousness? Should that receive praise?
    Imagine if Obama was doing the crap Trump is. He was pilloried for bowing for crying out loud.

  339. Marty had enough self-respect to deny his own support for Trump before the election. The fact that he so doggedly supportive now should make us all realize how impossible it is to dissuade the “true believers”. Depressing.

  340. Marty had enough self-respect to deny his own support for Trump before the election. The fact that he so doggedly supportive now should make us all realize how impossible it is to dissuade the “true believers”. Depressing.

  341. so now Trumpism has infected the core of our system of justice. giving testimony is unacceptable when the questioner isn’t known to be an unquestioning ally of the person to be questioned.
    and we’ve had 18 months of the President ranting and raving on Twitter (motherfucking Twitter – tell us about how Obama demeaned the office again, fuckos) about an investigation in which he is the lead figure, threatening everyone involved, demanding obsequious obedience. and this isn’t obstruction of Justice because… ? because the President can’t obstruct justice ?
    is there nothing “conservatives” won’t sully in defense of this man? are there no principles they have above “Go Team GOP!” ?
    don’t bother. i know the answer.
    been saying it for quite a while now: everything Trump touches is diminished.

  342. so now Trumpism has infected the core of our system of justice. giving testimony is unacceptable when the questioner isn’t known to be an unquestioning ally of the person to be questioned.
    and we’ve had 18 months of the President ranting and raving on Twitter (motherfucking Twitter – tell us about how Obama demeaned the office again, fuckos) about an investigation in which he is the lead figure, threatening everyone involved, demanding obsequious obedience. and this isn’t obstruction of Justice because… ? because the President can’t obstruct justice ?
    is there nothing “conservatives” won’t sully in defense of this man? are there no principles they have above “Go Team GOP!” ?
    don’t bother. i know the answer.
    been saying it for quite a while now: everything Trump touches is diminished.

  343. From here:

    Donald Trump is laying out his agenda: He wants flag-burning to be a crime, possibly resulting in a loss of citizenship or even a year in jail, he tweeted Tuesday morning.

    Marty, here, a little while ago: Its dangerous to silence dissent.
    ***
    From here:

    Robert Gates, the former director of central intelligence under President George H. W. Bush and the secretary of defense under both Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama,  signed the letter on Friday.
    They all called Trump’s move “an attempt to stifle free speech.”
    Trump has warned that he is also revoking the security clearances of other high-ranking officials, stripping them of access to classified information. Nine of these officials under review have all criticized the president.  Many have also been involved in the probe of the alleged collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia.
    Meanwhile, in the Legislative branch of government, the Senate unanimously passed a resolution Thursday affirming that “the press is not the enemy of the people.”

    Marty, here, a little while ago: Its dangerous to silence dissent.
    ***
    From here:

    Tuesday, President Donald Trump presided over a celebration at the White House that he claims will “honor our great country,” after abruptly canceling a gathering with the Super Bowl champion Philadelphia Eagles over the flap involving football players kneeling to protest police brutality and systemic racism.
    Trump insisted that the Eagles “disagree with their president because he insists that they proudly stand for the national anthem,” an assertion that carries echoes of dissatisfaction with their failure to submit to his will as well as any anger over treatment of the flag. Of course, as The Washington Post reports, no Eagles knelt in this manner, and the team privately conveyed to the White House that fewer players than expected would show up. Trump told the lie about kneeling Eagles to justify the cancellation in part because he anticipated low turnout, which he hates.

    Marty, here, a little while ago: Its dangerous to silence dissent.
    ***
    From here:

    Silencing Dissent: Donald Trump Just Threw An Elderly Version Of Himself Out Of His Rally For Shouting ‘Beware Hubris!’

    Marty, here, a little while ago: Its dangerous to silence dissent.

  344. From here:

    Donald Trump is laying out his agenda: He wants flag-burning to be a crime, possibly resulting in a loss of citizenship or even a year in jail, he tweeted Tuesday morning.

    Marty, here, a little while ago: Its dangerous to silence dissent.
    ***
    From here:

    Robert Gates, the former director of central intelligence under President George H. W. Bush and the secretary of defense under both Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama,  signed the letter on Friday.
    They all called Trump’s move “an attempt to stifle free speech.”
    Trump has warned that he is also revoking the security clearances of other high-ranking officials, stripping them of access to classified information. Nine of these officials under review have all criticized the president.  Many have also been involved in the probe of the alleged collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia.
    Meanwhile, in the Legislative branch of government, the Senate unanimously passed a resolution Thursday affirming that “the press is not the enemy of the people.”

    Marty, here, a little while ago: Its dangerous to silence dissent.
    ***
    From here:

    Tuesday, President Donald Trump presided over a celebration at the White House that he claims will “honor our great country,” after abruptly canceling a gathering with the Super Bowl champion Philadelphia Eagles over the flap involving football players kneeling to protest police brutality and systemic racism.
    Trump insisted that the Eagles “disagree with their president because he insists that they proudly stand for the national anthem,” an assertion that carries echoes of dissatisfaction with their failure to submit to his will as well as any anger over treatment of the flag. Of course, as The Washington Post reports, no Eagles knelt in this manner, and the team privately conveyed to the White House that fewer players than expected would show up. Trump told the lie about kneeling Eagles to justify the cancellation in part because he anticipated low turnout, which he hates.

    Marty, here, a little while ago: Its dangerous to silence dissent.
    ***
    From here:

    Silencing Dissent: Donald Trump Just Threw An Elderly Version Of Himself Out Of His Rally For Shouting ‘Beware Hubris!’

    Marty, here, a little while ago: Its dangerous to silence dissent.

  345. Ir’s interesting, I noted that there are folks on the left who are complaining about citing people like Clapper and Brennan because they represent some of the deep rooted problems with US policy, and Marty tells us that they are merely Democratic mouthpieces. I realize that the youtube video was an hour long, but I expected at least a nod towards listening to it and pointing out what was wrong.
    For others, here are two blogposts from Lawfare, the first by Jack Goldsmith and the second by Robert Litt.
    https://www.lawfareblog.com/dangers-trump-brennan-confrontation
    https://www.lawfareblog.com/how-trumps-outburst-over-security-clearances-harms-presidency
    Goldsmith makes the point that I was trying to when he writes
    This leads to the second unfortunate trend during the Trump era: the president’s uncanny ability to induce his critics to break norms in response to his norm-breaking behavior, in the process lending credibility to his critiques.
    interesting times, unfortunately for us.

  346. Ir’s interesting, I noted that there are folks on the left who are complaining about citing people like Clapper and Brennan because they represent some of the deep rooted problems with US policy, and Marty tells us that they are merely Democratic mouthpieces. I realize that the youtube video was an hour long, but I expected at least a nod towards listening to it and pointing out what was wrong.
    For others, here are two blogposts from Lawfare, the first by Jack Goldsmith and the second by Robert Litt.
    https://www.lawfareblog.com/dangers-trump-brennan-confrontation
    https://www.lawfareblog.com/how-trumps-outburst-over-security-clearances-harms-presidency
    Goldsmith makes the point that I was trying to when he writes
    This leads to the second unfortunate trend during the Trump era: the president’s uncanny ability to induce his critics to break norms in response to his norm-breaking behavior, in the process lending credibility to his critiques.
    interesting times, unfortunately for us.

  347. Your second comment was a concise argument disagreeing with mine. One that I consider as quite possible.
    Thiadd one was the sgeandard bullying of the left today to stifle any reasonable criticism of the tactics of the res and Mueller, much less any implication that Trump may not have colluded with the Russians:
    “Trump’s behavior is utter bullshit, and you undermine your own credibility when you defend it.
    Posted by: russell | August 21, 2018 at 08:07 AM”
    OMG my credibiity is undermined here? lj accuses me of only watching sound bites, Tony just calls me a liar in every comment where he mentions me. I am not sure losing credibility can happen. I do think Trump will be replaced as soon as the new justice is confirmed, it was inconvenient timing to need him to stay for that.
    I think Pence will not tweet so much.

  348. Your second comment was a concise argument disagreeing with mine. One that I consider as quite possible.
    Thiadd one was the sgeandard bullying of the left today to stifle any reasonable criticism of the tactics of the res and Mueller, much less any implication that Trump may not have colluded with the Russians:
    “Trump’s behavior is utter bullshit, and you undermine your own credibility when you defend it.
    Posted by: russell | August 21, 2018 at 08:07 AM”
    OMG my credibiity is undermined here? lj accuses me of only watching sound bites, Tony just calls me a liar in every comment where he mentions me. I am not sure losing credibility can happen. I do think Trump will be replaced as soon as the new justice is confirmed, it was inconvenient timing to need him to stay for that.
    I think Pence will not tweet so much.

  351. That paragraph got screwed. The first was standard bullyingvfctactic of the left to stifle any criticism of the tactics of the press or Mueller:

  352. That paragraph got screwed. The first was standard bullyingvfctactic of the left to stifle any criticism of the tactics of the press or Mueller:

  353. standard bullyingvfctactic of the left to stifle any criticism of the tactics of the press
    all good “conservatives” know that the press is the enemy of the people, and that defending the press against threats of violence made by Trump is stifling dissent.

  354. standard bullyingvfctactic of the left to stifle any criticism of the tactics of the press
    all good “conservatives” know that the press is the enemy of the people, and that defending the press against threats of violence made by Trump is stifling dissent.

  355. lj accuses me of only watching sound bites
    Marty, I thought that the video link I gave would give us something to discuss. You either didn’t watch it, or you had your line of Clapper and Brennan being Democratic mouthpieces already decided. You certainly didn’t refer to anything in the video that I could see. So it isn’t an accusation, more of an observation.
    I’m really puzzled why you hang out here if you feel that everyone treats you like crap. I acknowledge that you get piled on, and I’m sorry about that, but you seem to invite it by your initial claims about hating Trump but defending him nonetheless. I wouldn’t say it’s lying, I feel like it is the same thing that I do when I say that I don’t want to pile on, but I go ahead and comment. I’m pretty sure that I really don’t want to pile on, but it seems like what you say is rooted in some deeply seated cognitive dissonance and I would really like to know what is going on with that. Not really sure why this is, and if you’d like to try and explain it, I’d be interested to know why that is. Perhaps you feel that everyone else is being hypocritical and you are the only one who is hewing to their principles and if that is the case, I’ll just leave it be. thanks.

  356. lj accuses me of only watching sound bites
    Marty, I thought that the video link I gave would give us something to discuss. You either didn’t watch it, or you had your line of Clapper and Brennan being Democratic mouthpieces already decided. You certainly didn’t refer to anything in the video that I could see. So it isn’t an accusation, more of an observation.
    I’m really puzzled why you hang out here if you feel that everyone treats you like crap. I acknowledge that you get piled on, and I’m sorry about that, but you seem to invite it by your initial claims about hating Trump but defending him nonetheless. I wouldn’t say it’s lying, I feel like it is the same thing that I do when I say that I don’t want to pile on, but I go ahead and comment. I’m pretty sure that I really don’t want to pile on, but it seems like what you say is rooted in some deeply seated cognitive dissonance and I would really like to know what is going on with that. Not really sure why this is, and if you’d like to try and explain it, I’d be interested to know why that is. Perhaps you feel that everyone else is being hypocritical and you are the only one who is hewing to their principles and if that is the case, I’ll just leave it be. thanks.

  357. I do think Trump will be replaced as soon as the new justice is confirmed, it was inconvenient timing to need him to stay for that.
    Marty, I’d be interested in
    a) what leads you to believe this? I sure haven’t seen much that leads me to think that Congressional Republicans would even consider such a thing.
    b) why it needed Trump (as opposed to a President Pence) in order for a new justice to be confirmed. Or even nominated. It’s not like the Vice President is some kind of flaming liberal. If anything he’s a far more dedicated conservative than Trump.

  358. I do think Trump will be replaced as soon as the new justice is confirmed, it was inconvenient timing to need him to stay for that.
    Marty, I’d be interested in
    a) what leads you to believe this? I sure haven’t seen much that leads me to think that Congressional Republicans would even consider such a thing.
    b) why it needed Trump (as opposed to a President Pence) in order for a new justice to be confirmed. Or even nominated. It’s not like the Vice President is some kind of flaming liberal. If anything he’s a far more dedicated conservative than Trump.

  359. there’s a pure and honest patriotic soul smouldering in the heart of the GOP. they just need to get this nominee through and then they’ll let the Flame burn brightly again! Honor will be restored!
    LOL

  360. there’s a pure and honest patriotic soul smouldering in the heart of the GOP. they just need to get this nominee through and then they’ll let the Flame burn brightly again! Honor will be restored!
    LOL

  361. I believe a large part of the GOP leadership would like to drop Trump because he is an uncontrollable liability but they fear the base. Pence does not appeal to the really rabid part that wants a regular diet of red meat. And even with all the disenfranchisment measures in place the margin for winning is too small to risk losing the rabids.
    They must feel like the DNVP after getting in bed with Mr. Toothbrush Beard.

  362. I believe a large part of the GOP leadership would like to drop Trump because he is an uncontrollable liability but they fear the base. Pence does not appeal to the really rabid part that wants a regular diet of red meat. And even with all the disenfranchisment measures in place the margin for winning is too small to risk losing the rabids.
    They must feel like the DNVP after getting in bed with Mr. Toothbrush Beard.

  363. lj, started to watch it but work interfered. I’ve seen both of those guys lots of times on TV. So I do have an existing opinion of them. I was surprised at how politicized Brennan has become. Clapper has always been more political.
    I will watch the link when I have time today.

  364. lj, started to watch it but work interfered. I’ve seen both of those guys lots of times on TV. So I do have an existing opinion of them. I was surprised at how politicized Brennan has become. Clapper has always been more political.
    I will watch the link when I have time today.

  365. Marty: Tony just calls me a liar in every comment where he mentions me.
    Is that true? Or is it pointless to ask, given that “Truth isn’t truth”? No fair peeking in the archive: it’s just fake news.
    I do recall commenting that “Marty is lying to himself, not us” — once. I suppose that amounts to calling Marty a liar “every time”.
    –TP

  366. Marty: Tony just calls me a liar in every comment where he mentions me.
    Is that true? Or is it pointless to ask, given that “Truth isn’t truth”? No fair peeking in the archive: it’s just fake news.
    I do recall commenting that “Marty is lying to himself, not us” — once. I suppose that amounts to calling Marty a liar “every time”.
    –TP

  367. standard bullyingvfctactic of the left to stifle any criticism of the tactics of the press or Mueller:
    I guess I’m waiting to hear a substantive criticism of either the press or mueller.
    ‘Brennan and clapper are democratic talking heads’ is just not reality. ‘mueller is doing prosecutor things’ is like yelling at cops for issuing speeding tickets.
    I don’t know what to say to you, because I have no idea what you’re on about or where you’re coming from.
    is the press supposed to be nice to trump? is mueller not supposed to pursue criminal activity he finds?
    I’m at a loss. what is it that you want?

  368. standard bullyingvfctactic of the left to stifle any criticism of the tactics of the press or Mueller:
    I guess I’m waiting to hear a substantive criticism of either the press or mueller.
    ‘Brennan and clapper are democratic talking heads’ is just not reality. ‘mueller is doing prosecutor things’ is like yelling at cops for issuing speeding tickets.
    I don’t know what to say to you, because I have no idea what you’re on about or where you’re coming from.
    is the press supposed to be nice to trump? is mueller not supposed to pursue criminal activity he finds?
    I’m at a loss. what is it that you want?

  371. “I am not sure losing credibility can happen.”
    Well, we live in America, where sewage gets treated and placed back into circulation so we brag that our shit doesn’t stink and we can call ourselves exceptional.

  372. “I am not sure losing credibility can happen.”
    Well, we live in America, where sewage gets treated and placed back into circulation so we brag that our shit doesn’t stink and we can call ourselves exceptional.

  373. It is quite interesting to watch Marty’s evolution from Never-Trumper to Trump-Curious, driving by Cleek’s Law.
    Thanks, cleek!

  374. It is quite interesting to watch Marty’s evolution from Never-Trumper to Trump-Curious, driving by Cleek’s Law.
    Thanks, cleek!

  375. obviously, if the left just stifled their criticism of Trump, stopped wanting Mueller to look into the Trump campaign’s possible treasonous collusion with a foreign power, ignored the piles of illegal activity by his campaign staff and just let the GOP run things as they are entitled to do, “conservatives” would be fine with whatever the left wanted to talk about.
    i can’t wait for “conservatives” to start accusing the left of enabling and encouraging Trump’s bad behavior because we were so mean to him.

  376. obviously, if the left just stifled their criticism of Trump, stopped wanting Mueller to look into the Trump campaign’s possible treasonous collusion with a foreign power, ignored the piles of illegal activity by his campaign staff and just let the GOP run things as they are entitled to do, “conservatives” would be fine with whatever the left wanted to talk about.
    i can’t wait for “conservatives” to start accusing the left of enabling and encouraging Trump’s bad behavior because we were so mean to him.

  377. My sense from watching the build up to the election last winter was that the Republicans would find an opportunity to get Trump gone by summer. They could tout the achievements from a conservative standpoint without having to deal with his lunacy.
    I think, no facts just my opinion that I haven’t heard anyone else espouse, that the opening on the court put them in a bind because they needed to get a nominee quickly and, then, what is the protocol for a nominee that isn’t confirmed yet if the President gets taken out for mental unfitness?
    Plus they have primaries mostly done, with almost all of the ones Trump campaigned for winning, so do they take him out to try to win the ones in danger or leave him in place to make sure they win the ones in the bag?
    The politics are in his favor until the election, barring a more complete meltdown, which, granted, may come.
    Finally to answer a question lj asked, I stay here because I think it is the one place that someone may actually think about what I say. Tony doesn’t actually say liar, he just calls me a Trump supporter, lj doesn’t mind piling on and I am surprised if he doesn’t, russell tells me I am somehow demeaning myself by having an alternative opinion, but every one of those reactions is perfectly predictable.
    It is a difficult time to discuss things when almost every institution and collegial expectation has been destroyed by the Trump effect. I like to think that despite the meta discussion this place still has a fairly high level of open mindedness buried in the angst and anger. So I stay.

  378. My sense from watching the build up to the election last winter was that the Republicans would find an opportunity to get Trump gone by summer. They could tout the achievements from a conservative standpoint without having to deal with his lunacy.
    I think, no facts just my opinion that I haven’t heard anyone else espouse, that the opening on the court put them in a bind because they needed to get a nominee quickly and, then, what is the protocol for a nominee that isn’t confirmed yet if the President gets taken out for mental unfitness?
    Plus they have primaries mostly done, with almost all of the ones Trump campaigned for winning, so do they take him out to try to win the ones in danger or leave him in place to make sure they win the ones in the bag?
    The politics are in his favor until the election, barring a more complete meltdown, which, granted, may come.
    Finally to answer a question lj asked, I stay here because I think it is the one place that someone may actually think about what I say. Tony doesn’t actually say liar, he just calls me a Trump supporter, lj doesn’t mind piling on and I am surprised if he doesn’t, russell tells me I am somehow demeaning myself by having an alternative opinion, but every one of those reactions is perfectly predictable.
    It is a difficult time to discuss things when almost every institution and collegial expectation has been destroyed by the Trump effect. I like to think that despite the meta discussion this place still has a fairly high level of open mindedness buried in the angst and anger. So I stay.

  379. My sense from watching the build up to the election last winter was that the Republicans would find an opportunity to get Trump gone by summer.
    I completely agree that it would have been the smart thing to do. For the party, not to mention for the country. But I just see no sign that what was obvious to you and me carried any weight with the Republicans in Congress. Or that it will in the future.

  380. My sense from watching the build up to the election last winter was that the Republicans would find an opportunity to get Trump gone by summer.
    I completely agree that it would have been the smart thing to do. For the party, not to mention for the country. But I just see no sign that what was obvious to you and me carried any weight with the Republicans in Congress. Or that it will in the future.

  381. why do you think the GOP wants Trump gone?
    the base adores him. and they can ride his coattails to resounding defeat in November.

  382. why do you think the GOP wants Trump gone?
    the base adores him. and they can ride his coattails to resounding defeat in November.

  383. If they can get rid of him because he is mentally impaired due to illness they don’t lose the base and they do lose the lunatic fringe. Both are good things. If they take him out by Mueller it is a huge win because that will be perceived as political no matter what the charge, the only way they lose is if they allow impeachment.
    The politics are pretty clear, but, the Democrats keep just losing and claiming victory because it was close. Not so sure close losses equate to a blue wave.

  384. If they can get rid of him because he is mentally impaired due to illness they don’t lose the base and they do lose the lunatic fringe. Both are good things. If they take him out by Mueller it is a huge win because that will be perceived as political no matter what the charge, the only way they lose is if they allow impeachment.
    The politics are pretty clear, but, the Democrats keep just losing and claiming victory because it was close. Not so sure close losses equate to a blue wave.

  385. Well, Cohen seems to be entering a plea agreement, pleading guilty to campaign violations because of paying off women. Hmmm.
    Trump is surrounded by crooks, and he’s a crook. His base loves that about him.

  386. Well, Cohen seems to be entering a plea agreement, pleading guilty to campaign violations because of paying off women. Hmmm.
    Trump is surrounded by crooks, and he’s a crook. His base loves that about him.

  387. This leads to the second unfortunate trend during the Trump era: the president’s uncanny ability to induce his critics to break norms in response to his norm-breaking behavior, in the process lending credibility to his critiques.
    This sounds about right.
    I believe a large part of the GOP leadership would like to drop Trump because he is an uncontrollable liability but they fear the base.
    I used to think this, but no longer. They had a chance to do what some have done, which is to call him out. For those few, they’ve been unelected by the base. There are principled conservatives who despise Trump and will not accept the binary notion of Trump or the Dems. But, for the most part, the Republican Party has buried its collective face in Trump’s lap, pardon the visual. They have sold themselves out for near-term electoral advantage. The long term price will be high.
    If they can get rid of him because he is mentally impaired due to illness they don’t lose the base and they do lose the lunatic fringe. Both are good things. If they take him out by Mueller it is a huge win because that will be perceived as political no matter what the charge, the only way they lose is if they allow impeachment.
    Mental impairment requires a majority vote of the cabinet and the VP. That would be seen as a coup. Mueller can’t make him leave unless he resigns, which isn’t happening. He may be impeached by the house, but he won’t be convicted. He stays on and we all have to endure it.
    My faint hope is that he tweets himself into irrelevance and that the left realizes that 98% of what he does is of no *real* lasting significance and, with that realization, chills out a little bit. He is almost entirely without substance. Being vilified or threatened by Trump is the best thing that can happen to anyone. What no rational person should ever want is to be seen as Trump’s friend. Ten years from now, he will be long gone. Every dumbass who kissed his ass publicly will be persona non grata in decent circles.
    None of which is an endorsement of many of the views expressed here about Trump and his supporters, which really are over the top in a lot of different ways.

  388. This leads to the second unfortunate trend during the Trump era: the president’s uncanny ability to induce his critics to break norms in response to his norm-breaking behavior, in the process lending credibility to his critiques.
    This sounds about right.
    I believe a large part of the GOP leadership would like to drop Trump because he is an uncontrollable liability but they fear the base.
    I used to think this, but no longer. They had a chance to do what some have done, which is to call him out. For those few, they’ve been unelected by the base. There are principled conservatives who despise Trump and will not accept the binary notion of Trump or the Dems. But, for the most part, the Republican Party has buried its collective face in Trump’s lap, pardon the visual. They have sold themselves out for near-term electoral advantage. The long term price will be high.
    If they can get rid of him because he is mentally impaired due to illness they don’t lose the base and they do lose the lunatic fringe. Both are good things. If they take him out by Mueller it is a huge win because that will be perceived as political no matter what the charge, the only way they lose is if they allow impeachment.
    Mental impairment requires a majority vote of the cabinet and the VP. That would be seen as a coup. Mueller can’t make him leave unless he resigns, which isn’t happening. He may be impeached by the house, but he won’t be convicted. He stays on and we all have to endure it.
    My faint hope is that he tweets himself into irrelevance and that the left realizes that 98% of what he does is of no *real* lasting significance and, with that realization, chills out a little bit. He is almost entirely without substance. Being vilified or threatened by Trump is the best thing that can happen to anyone. What no rational person should ever want is to be seen as Trump’s friend. Ten years from now, he will be long gone. Every dumbass who kissed his ass publicly will be persona non grata in decent circles.
    None of which is an endorsement of many of the views expressed here about Trump and his supporters, which really are over the top in a lot of different ways.

  391. “There are principled conservatives who despise Trump and will not accept the binary notion of Trump or the Dems.”
    Well it would be nice to give them a third choice.

  392. “There are principled conservatives who despise Trump and will not accept the binary notion of Trump or the Dems.”
    Well it would be nice to give them a third choice.

  393. My faint hope is that he tweets himself into irrelevance and that the left realizes that 98% of what he does is of no *real* lasting significance and, with that realization, chills out a little bit. He is almost entirely without substance.
    One of the few bright spots in this administration is that, in addition to massive incompetence, this White House (not just Trump, but those around him) has no real clue about how government actually works. Which means that they have no idea how to implement even those ideas which persist longer than the time it takes to fire off a tweet. At lot more damage could be done if they did.

  394. My faint hope is that he tweets himself into irrelevance and that the left realizes that 98% of what he does is of no *real* lasting significance and, with that realization, chills out a little bit. He is almost entirely without substance.
    One of the few bright spots in this administration is that, in addition to massive incompetence, this White House (not just Trump, but those around him) has no real clue about how government actually works. Which means that they have no idea how to implement even those ideas which persist longer than the time it takes to fire off a tweet. At lot more damage could be done if they did.

  395. “Which means that they have no idea how to implement even those ideas which persist longer than the time it takes to fire off a tweet. ”
    Actually, this is not what I believe. I think that beneath the furor there are massive changes being made and the impacts will last long past the Trump years.
    By default, some of these I am perfectly fine with, others I disagree with, some I think should have more review in the light of day to decide. But we have so empowered the executive branch I think we are going to pay a price for not paying attention.
    Look the president just wrote a 140 character insult of LeBron James, never mind about that EPA stuff. Brennan said Trump is committing treason but has no direct knowledge that it’s true, ignore that easing on the stress tests. Wait LeBron answered, wow that was a real gotcha. Huge anti white supremacist rally yesterday, the only white supremacist that showed up was grounded by his dad. Look we reorganized the military and added a space force and hired another 5000 Trump supporters as GS24’s, never mind Trump just back handedly insulted Aretha.
    He’s daft and stupid and bad but, like many stupid bad people, can be clever.

  396. “Which means that they have no idea how to implement even those ideas which persist longer than the time it takes to fire off a tweet. ”
    Actually, this is not what I believe. I think that beneath the furor there are massive changes being made and the impacts will last long past the Trump years.
    By default, some of these I am perfectly fine with, others I disagree with, some I think should have more review in the light of day to decide. But we have so empowered the executive branch I think we are going to pay a price for not paying attention.
    Look the president just wrote a 140 character insult of LeBron James, never mind about that EPA stuff. Brennan said Trump is committing treason but has no direct knowledge that it’s true, ignore that easing on the stress tests. Wait LeBron answered, wow that was a real gotcha. Huge anti white supremacist rally yesterday, the only white supremacist that showed up was grounded by his dad. Look we reorganized the military and added a space force and hired another 5000 Trump supporters as GS24’s, never mind Trump just back handedly insulted Aretha.
    He’s daft and stupid and bad but, like many stupid bad people, can be clever.

  397. he’s not going to become irrelevant. the press loves him, even as he embarrasses the country. he will only fade away if he dies or goes to prison.
    and, i’m not seeing any embarrassment. as of last week, he was at 87% approval among Republicans. statistically speaking, Republicans love him. they adore him. they don’t want him gone. they aren’t embarrassed. they want him to stay in the WH, tweeting like a child, paying off his mistresses, screwing US businesses, remarking how people who don’t look like him nevertheless speak “perfect English”. they love it all. all of what Fox News tells them, that is.
    he’s not going anywhere until 2012 at least. and, given how Obama’s economy is still chugging along smoothly, there’s a chance he’s there till 2024.
    Not so sure close losses equate to a blue wave.
    overall, special elections haven’t been looking good for the GOP, despite a few close losses. but i’m not seriously predicting a blue wave. hoping, certainly. but, the (thousands of) elections are still a long ways off. and after 2016 i don’t believe polls.

  398. he’s not going to become irrelevant. the press loves him, even as he embarrasses the country. he will only fade away if he dies or goes to prison.
    and, i’m not seeing any embarrassment. as of last week, he was at 87% approval among Republicans. statistically speaking, Republicans love him. they adore him. they don’t want him gone. they aren’t embarrassed. they want him to stay in the WH, tweeting like a child, paying off his mistresses, screwing US businesses, remarking how people who don’t look like him nevertheless speak “perfect English”. they love it all. all of what Fox News tells them, that is.
    he’s not going anywhere until 2012 at least. and, given how Obama’s economy is still chugging along smoothly, there’s a chance he’s there till 2024.
    Not so sure close losses equate to a blue wave.
    overall, special elections haven’t been looking good for the GOP, despite a few close losses. but i’m not seriously predicting a blue wave. hoping, certainly. but, the (thousands of) elections are still a long ways off. and after 2016 i don’t believe polls.

  399. Grassley and republicans are despicable pieces of shit.
    The twitter thread says this is the first time since the Civil War this has happened.
    Just about everything these people do hasn’t happened since the Civil War, except the next Civil War, and it is goddamned fucking time we caught up with that too.
    “He stays on and we all have to endure it.”
    No, we don’t. Not with Pence either.
    British royalists in the colonies said that about George III too.
    I believe Mussolini said roughly the same thing too in Italian minutes before being hoisted upside down along with his mistress, both by the ankles with buckets underneath to gather the blood.

  400. Grassley and republicans are despicable pieces of shit.
    The twitter thread says this is the first time since the Civil War this has happened.
    Just about everything these people do hasn’t happened since the Civil War, except the next Civil War, and it is goddamned fucking time we caught up with that too.
    “He stays on and we all have to endure it.”
    No, we don’t. Not with Pence either.
    British royalists in the colonies said that about George III too.
    I believe Mussolini said roughly the same thing too in Italian minutes before being hoisted upside down along with his mistress, both by the ankles with buckets underneath to gather the blood.

  401. and after 2016 i don’t believe polls.
    that is, i don’t believe national polls predict anything about elections that aren’t national.

  402. and after 2016 i don’t believe polls.
    that is, i don’t believe national polls predict anything about elections that aren’t national.

  403. “One of the few bright spots in this administration is that …..’
    Could be floaters in the back of the eye. Possibly a detached retina or a stroke.
    See an ophthalmologist at the earliest possible opportunity.

  404. “One of the few bright spots in this administration is that …..’
    Could be floaters in the back of the eye. Possibly a detached retina or a stroke.
    See an ophthalmologist at the earliest possible opportunity.

  405. “Every dumbass who kissed his ass publicly will be persona non grata in decent circles.”
    Someone run out and find a decent circle.
    As Marty stated, I don’t think it is possible to lose credibility in America any longer.
    It’s now the path to riches and notoriety.
    Infamous is the new famous.
    Hire an agent.
    There are endless gigs available to malign but marketable assholes and jagoffs in America.
    A person can now pivot without shame or a shrug from a political career to porn or a political career to a cage match on the WWF … and back again.

  406. “Every dumbass who kissed his ass publicly will be persona non grata in decent circles.”
    Someone run out and find a decent circle.
    As Marty stated, I don’t think it is possible to lose credibility in America any longer.
    It’s now the path to riches and notoriety.
    Infamous is the new famous.
    Hire an agent.
    There are endless gigs available to malign but marketable assholes and jagoffs in America.
    A person can now pivot without shame or a shrug from a political career to porn or a political career to a cage match on the WWF … and back again.

  407. Not so vulgar, Count. Better to follow the Neronic style dispatching them reenacting classical myths. The Donald will be Pentheus, torn to pieces by Maenads (should be easy to find female volunteers); a Galapagos tortoise will be dropped on Mitch McConnell from a sufficient height (so the tortoise but not the turtle has a fair chance of survival) etc.

  408. Not so vulgar, Count. Better to follow the Neronic style dispatching them reenacting classical myths. The Donald will be Pentheus, torn to pieces by Maenads (should be easy to find female volunteers); a Galapagos tortoise will be dropped on Mitch McConnell from a sufficient height (so the tortoise but not the turtle has a fair chance of survival) etc.

  411. I think that beneath the furor there are massive changes being made and the impacts will last long past the Trump years.
    Oh, I agree completely. But there is so much more that might be happening if they knew what they were doing. Thank God for small favors.

  412. I think that beneath the furor there are massive changes being made and the impacts will last long past the Trump years.
    Oh, I agree completely. But there is so much more that might be happening if they knew what they were doing. Thank God for small favors.

  413. after 2016 i don’t believe polls.
    Actually, the polls did rather well in 2016. That is, the polls were saying that Trump had something like a 1/3 chance to win. Not zero chance; 1/3. Statistics being what it is, that means sometimes the long-shot comes thru . . . and this wasn’t really that long.
    Similarly for this year. Last I looked, 538 was saying there were 3 chances in 4 that the Democrats take the House (with varying majorities) and 1 chance in 3 that the Republicans hold it. (By this afternoon evolved to 5 in 7 and 2 in 7 respectively.)
    The median forecast is for the Democrats to have a 33 seat majority. But there’s even about 1 chance in 200 that the Republicans actually increase their majority — again, not zero, even if it’s not the way the smart money would bet.

  414. after 2016 i don’t believe polls.
    Actually, the polls did rather well in 2016. That is, the polls were saying that Trump had something like a 1/3 chance to win. Not zero chance; 1/3. Statistics being what it is, that means sometimes the long-shot comes thru . . . and this wasn’t really that long.
    Similarly for this year. Last I looked, 538 was saying there were 3 chances in 4 that the Democrats take the House (with varying majorities) and 1 chance in 3 that the Republicans hold it. (By this afternoon evolved to 5 in 7 and 2 in 7 respectively.)
    The median forecast is for the Democrats to have a 33 seat majority. But there’s even about 1 chance in 200 that the Republicans actually increase their majority — again, not zero, even if it’s not the way the smart money would bet.

  421. Manafort guilty – and found guilty, too.
    Guilty on 8 counts, hung jury on 10 (haven’t seen what the split was on those). Acquitted on . . . zero. Some witch hunt.

  422. Manafort guilty – and found guilty, too.
    Guilty on 8 counts, hung jury on 10 (haven’t seen what the split was on those). Acquitted on . . . zero. Some witch hunt.

  423. The former Trump campaign chairman faced 18 counts in total, five counts of filing false tax returns, four counts of failing to disclose his offshore bank accounts and nine counts of bank fraud.
    He was found guilty on Tuesday of five tax fraud charges, one count relating to hiding foreign bank accounts and two counts of bank fraud.
    So he was found guilty of some in each category.

  424. The former Trump campaign chairman faced 18 counts in total, five counts of filing false tax returns, four counts of failing to disclose his offshore bank accounts and nine counts of bank fraud.
    He was found guilty on Tuesday of five tax fraud charges, one count relating to hiding foreign bank accounts and two counts of bank fraud.
    So he was found guilty of some in each category.

  427. And another trial to come.
    Meanwhile, Cohen pleads guilty.
    Expect an explosion of impotent rage fairly soon.

  428. And another trial to come.
    Meanwhile, Cohen pleads guilty.
    Expect an explosion of impotent rage fairly soon.

  429. He just needs a little time to come up with a line to spin it for the faithful. It’ll work too, at least for a while.

  430. He just needs a little time to come up with a line to spin it for the faithful. It’ll work too, at least for a while.

  431. Actually, the polls did rather well in 2016.
    those were based on accumulations of statewide polls. national polls all said Clinton+4 or so. and they were right! but national polls are meaningless because there are no national elections.

  432. Actually, the polls did rather well in 2016.
    those were based on accumulations of statewide polls. national polls all said Clinton+4 or so. and they were right! but national polls are meaningless because there are no national elections.

  435. russell tells me I am somehow demeaning myself by having an alternative opinion
    as russell, i feel qualified to say what it is that russell is saying.
    russell is saying that, in your effort to offer an ‘alternative opinion’, you take positions that are unsupportable.
    not ‘unsupportable’ meaning ‘i don’t like them’. ‘unsupportable’ meaning ‘are not supported by fact’. they aren’t accurate.
    Well it would be nice to give them a third choice.
    you all are gonna have to make that happen. people like me don’t vote in (R) primaries. presumably, people like you, do.
    please, by all means, provide yourselves with an option other than the (D)’s and some version of Trump.
    I think that beneath the furor there are massive changes being made and the impacts will last long past the Trump years.
    couldn’t agree more.
    how did that happen? how did we get here? who the fnck voted for this guy? oh wait – not me.
    maybe you want to take this up with the people who voted for the guy.
    maybe you want to comment about the EPA, or the loosening of the stress test regs, instead of about how Brennan is a democratic talking head.
    maybe the response you get would be more engaging, and less ‘WTF are you talking about?!?’.
    maybe you won’t have to complain about people ‘bullying’ you for your ‘alternative opinion’.
    Mussolini
    if you travel in rural italy, and probably not so rural italy, you’ll find the occasional picture of il duce. in certain circles in russia, there are folks who fondly remember uncle joe.
    there are going to be about 30% of the population who will love trump, in or out of office, until their last dying breath.

  436. russell tells me I am somehow demeaning myself by having an alternative opinion
    as russell, i feel qualified to say what it is that russell is saying.
    russell is saying that, in your effort to offer an ‘alternative opinion’, you take positions that are unsupportable.
    not ‘unsupportable’ meaning ‘i don’t like them’. ‘unsupportable’ meaning ‘are not supported by fact’. they aren’t accurate.
    Well it would be nice to give them a third choice.
    you all are gonna have to make that happen. people like me don’t vote in (R) primaries. presumably, people like you, do.
    please, by all means, provide yourselves with an option other than the (D)’s and some version of Trump.
    I think that beneath the furor there are massive changes being made and the impacts will last long past the Trump years.
    couldn’t agree more.
    how did that happen? how did we get here? who the fnck voted for this guy? oh wait – not me.
    maybe you want to take this up with the people who voted for the guy.
    maybe you want to comment about the EPA, or the loosening of the stress test regs, instead of about how Brennan is a democratic talking head.
    maybe the response you get would be more engaging, and less ‘WTF are you talking about?!?’.
    maybe you won’t have to complain about people ‘bullying’ you for your ‘alternative opinion’.
    Mussolini
    if you travel in rural italy, and probably not so rural italy, you’ll find the occasional picture of il duce. in certain circles in russia, there are folks who fondly remember uncle joe.
    there are going to be about 30% of the population who will love trump, in or out of office, until their last dying breath.

  441. Cohen and Manafort in one day. Might be something. Something that I haven’t seen discussed–but could easily have missed–is that Cohen is an oulier among attorneys and not in a good way. Non-lawyers often have a cynical, jaundiced view of lawyers as a class. My view is that, trial lawyers at least, are pretty good folks to work with and I’m talking the lawyers on the other side of my cases. We make verbal agreements and handshake deals all the time and almost everyone always keeps their promises. The few who don’t are known and distrusted. And then, way out on the edge, are the Cohen’s. Slimy, shitty human beings. I maintain there is a special online dating-type service for slimy lawyers and slimy clients to meet. Clients hire lawyers like Cohen because they need something sleezy and shitty taken care of. If it was a straight up deal, just hire a regular lawyer.
    If the Trump falls because he hired a piece of shit lawyer, that says more about Trump than it does the lawyer. Trump needed someone like that. He didn’t have that need for a reason that can bear sunlight. The more we learn of this guy, the sicker we all get.

  442. Cohen and Manafort in one day. Might be something. Something that I haven’t seen discussed–but could easily have missed–is that Cohen is an oulier among attorneys and not in a good way. Non-lawyers often have a cynical, jaundiced view of lawyers as a class. My view is that, trial lawyers at least, are pretty good folks to work with and I’m talking the lawyers on the other side of my cases. We make verbal agreements and handshake deals all the time and almost everyone always keeps their promises. The few who don’t are known and distrusted. And then, way out on the edge, are the Cohen’s. Slimy, shitty human beings. I maintain there is a special online dating-type service for slimy lawyers and slimy clients to meet. Clients hire lawyers like Cohen because they need something sleezy and shitty taken care of. If it was a straight up deal, just hire a regular lawyer.
    If the Trump falls because he hired a piece of shit lawyer, that says more about Trump than it does the lawyer. Trump needed someone like that. He didn’t have that need for a reason that can bear sunlight. The more we learn of this guy, the sicker we all get.

  443. I have refused to have anything to do with the coverage of Trump’s Nuremberg rallies, but tonight, I’m tempted.
    Nahhh. I’ll see what MSNBC has to say.

  444. I have refused to have anything to do with the coverage of Trump’s Nuremberg rallies, but tonight, I’m tempted.
    Nahhh. I’ll see what MSNBC has to say.

  445. Interesting factoid just now. For those who, like me, didn’t know why there are being two separate Manafort trials.
    Turns out that they could have been consolidated. But Manafort “declined to waive venue” — which required that the trial be held in the location where the crime occurred. Apparently he thought he would get a more sympathetic jury in Eastern Virginia than in DC. Perhaps he was right….

  446. Interesting factoid just now. For those who, like me, didn’t know why there are being two separate Manafort trials.
    Turns out that they could have been consolidated. But Manafort “declined to waive venue” — which required that the trial be held in the location where the crime occurred. Apparently he thought he would get a more sympathetic jury in Eastern Virginia than in DC. Perhaps he was right….

  447. The more we learn of this guy, the sicker we all get.
    Yep. Thank you, McKinney.
    Hope you find the wherewithal to do something about it by voting for Democrats. You’re disappointed that our system doesn’t allow a viable third course, but it doesn’t. Republicans are lock step behind him. You have the opportunity to vote Democratic, even just while he’s around, to show your opposition. Health insurance for all is really not a despicable concept. The EPA actually does a lot of good. You’re against women’s right to choose abortion, but the Supreme Court really shouldn’t be occupied by people whose records are being kept a national secret.
    There’s something you can do, McKinney. Thanks for your consideration.

  448. The more we learn of this guy, the sicker we all get.
    Yep. Thank you, McKinney.
    Hope you find the wherewithal to do something about it by voting for Democrats. You’re disappointed that our system doesn’t allow a viable third course, but it doesn’t. Republicans are lock step behind him. You have the opportunity to vote Democratic, even just while he’s around, to show your opposition. Health insurance for all is really not a despicable concept. The EPA actually does a lot of good. You’re against women’s right to choose abortion, but the Supreme Court really shouldn’t be occupied by people whose records are being kept a national secret.
    There’s something you can do, McKinney. Thanks for your consideration.

  449. If the Trump falls because he hired a piece of shit lawyer, that says more about Trump than it does the lawyer. Trump needed someone like that.
    Well, for somebody who learnt at the knee of Roy Cohn, surprise surprise.

  450. If the Trump falls because he hired a piece of shit lawyer, that says more about Trump than it does the lawyer. Trump needed someone like that.
    Well, for somebody who learnt at the knee of Roy Cohn, surprise surprise.

  451. Something that I haven’t seen discussed–but could easily have missed–is that Cohen is an oulier among attorneys and not in a good way.
    As you say, Trump needed someone like Cohen. Not least because reputable lawyers wouldn’t, and on current evidence won’t, work for someone like that.

  452. Something that I haven’t seen discussed–but could easily have missed–is that Cohen is an oulier among attorneys and not in a good way.
    As you say, Trump needed someone like Cohen. Not least because reputable lawyers wouldn’t, and on current evidence won’t, work for someone like that.

  455. I’m thinking that about the end of September Pence stops the Donald in the hall one morning and says, “Ugly things are piling up. Consider the possibility of Ivanka in prison because a jury decides to take it out on her. I promise I’ll pardon the Trump family if you’ll retire ‘for health reasons.'”

  456. I’m thinking that about the end of September Pence stops the Donald in the hall one morning and says, “Ugly things are piling up. Consider the possibility of Ivanka in prison because a jury decides to take it out on her. I promise I’ll pardon the Trump family if you’ll retire ‘for health reasons.'”

  459. I wonder what they have on Mike Pence. My guess is that it’s not nothing.
    1. Democrats win the House.
    2. Hillary is elected Speaker of the House.
    3. Trump retires for “health reasons.”
    4. Pence resigns rather than face impeachment.
    5. Hillary becomes POTUS.
    🙂

  460. I wonder what they have on Mike Pence. My guess is that it’s not nothing.
    1. Democrats win the House.
    2. Hillary is elected Speaker of the House.
    3. Trump retires for “health reasons.”
    4. Pence resigns rather than face impeachment.
    5. Hillary becomes POTUS.
    🙂

  463. Charles, does it occur to you that you’ve gotten a bit behind the curve? The freekout would be all the greater if it was the current ultra-demoness: Pelosi. (I’m not a fan. But the potential for generating apoplexy is amusing.)

  464. Charles, does it occur to you that you’ve gotten a bit behind the curve? The freekout would be all the greater if it was the current ultra-demoness: Pelosi. (I’m not a fan. But the potential for generating apoplexy is amusing.)

  465. In a day rich in politican news, we wouldn’t want to overlook this detail.
    In his guilty plea, Cohen said that he (illegally) paid off two women in order to influence the election “in coordination with and at the direction of a candidate for federal office.” One guess who that candidate, and co-conspirator (unindicted or otherwise) is.

  466. In a day rich in politican news, we wouldn’t want to overlook this detail.
    In his guilty plea, Cohen said that he (illegally) paid off two women in order to influence the election “in coordination with and at the direction of a candidate for federal office.” One guess who that candidate, and co-conspirator (unindicted or otherwise) is.

  467. Something that I haven’t seen discussed–but could easily have missed–is that Cohen is an outlier among attorneys and not in a good way.
    I could be wrong, but I believe the coverage of Cohen has pretty consistently been that he’s a mobbed-up fixer. His work for Trump has involved very little actual legal representation.
    He’s not just an ‘outlier’ among attorneys, he’s basically not working as an attorney.
    Trump needed someone like that.
    Yes.
    Look, I know that you, and Marty, and whoever else, thinks we’re all being a bunch of shrill liberal ninnies when we criticize Trump, but to be honest it’s hardly even a political thing.
    Trump is a crook. He is not an honest human being. Not “not honest” in the sense of telling lies and being less than candid, but profoundly so. He’s a liar, a cheat, a chiseler.
    A significant number of his business associates, including Michael Cohen, are mobbed-up or are plainly gangsters. No bank in the US will lend him money. His real estate business at this point is mostly selling high-end real estate to anonymous off-shore buyers who make their purchases through holding companies. Which is SOP for money launderers.
    The rest of his businesses are basically licensing his name, which is to say monetizing his notoriety. He, Ivanka, the boys, are basically the NY branch of the Kardashians, except (thankfully) without the nudie pictures.
    Marty criticizes Mueller for “looking for chances to prosecute”. You can’t swing a dead cat within ten feet of Donald Trump without finding somebody to prosecute. The reason Mueller has so many attorneys on staff, with such a wide range of areas of expertise, is that there are some many freaking criminal ratholes to follow.
    I have no idea what the hell to say about his level of support among (R)’s, I guess the combination of tax cuts and “owning the libs” is quite the intoxicating brew.
    I feel sorry for all the people who put their confidence in the guy and who are basically gonna get screwed before all is said and done. But they need to wise the hell up. I’ll talk about Trump here, but I do not, ever, talk about Trump with anyone in my real life who is a Trump supporter. All it does is get them on the defense. People need space to figure this stuff out for themselves, in their own time, I’m happy to stay out of their way while they do that.
    Some never will. So be it. Changing hearts and minds at that level is not one of my superpowers.
    For the folks who are into Trump for the de-regulation and the tax cuts and the continued bull market – basically FOR THE MONEY – I say enjoy your payday, and I hope you don’t choke on it. Just don’t ever tell me you love this country.
    Donald Trump is a crook. Born crooked, lived his whole life crooked, crooked still. Probably be a crook until the day he dies. Maybe he’ll go down for this bullshit, I have no idea. I hope he does, not because I’m all butt-hurt because Hillary lost, but because he is a cancer on the nation and, frankly, the world, and we’ll be better with him gone.
    The (R)’s are whole other topic. American conservatives need to get their at together and build a new party. The one they have now is toxic.

  468. Something that I haven’t seen discussed–but could easily have missed–is that Cohen is an outlier among attorneys and not in a good way.
    I could be wrong, but I believe the coverage of Cohen has pretty consistently been that he’s a mobbed-up fixer. His work for Trump has involved very little actual legal representation.
    He’s not just an ‘outlier’ among attorneys, he’s basically not working as an attorney.
    Trump needed someone like that.
    Yes.
    Look, I know that you, and Marty, and whoever else, thinks we’re all being a bunch of shrill liberal ninnies when we criticize Trump, but to be honest it’s hardly even a political thing.
    Trump is a crook. He is not an honest human being. Not “not honest” in the sense of telling lies and being less than candid, but profoundly so. He’s a liar, a cheat, a chiseler.
    A significant number of his business associates, including Michael Cohen, are mobbed-up or are plainly gangsters. No bank in the US will lend him money. His real estate business at this point is mostly selling high-end real estate to anonymous off-shore buyers who make their purchases through holding companies. Which is SOP for money launderers.
    The rest of his businesses are basically licensing his name, which is to say monetizing his notoriety. He, Ivanka, the boys, are basically the NY branch of the Kardashians, except (thankfully) without the nudie pictures.
    Marty criticizes Mueller for “looking for chances to prosecute”. You can’t swing a dead cat within ten feet of Donald Trump without finding somebody to prosecute. The reason Mueller has so many attorneys on staff, with such a wide range of areas of expertise, is that there are some many freaking criminal ratholes to follow.
    I have no idea what the hell to say about his level of support among (R)’s, I guess the combination of tax cuts and “owning the libs” is quite the intoxicating brew.
    I feel sorry for all the people who put their confidence in the guy and who are basically gonna get screwed before all is said and done. But they need to wise the hell up. I’ll talk about Trump here, but I do not, ever, talk about Trump with anyone in my real life who is a Trump supporter. All it does is get them on the defense. People need space to figure this stuff out for themselves, in their own time, I’m happy to stay out of their way while they do that.
    Some never will. So be it. Changing hearts and minds at that level is not one of my superpowers.
    For the folks who are into Trump for the de-regulation and the tax cuts and the continued bull market – basically FOR THE MONEY – I say enjoy your payday, and I hope you don’t choke on it. Just don’t ever tell me you love this country.
    Donald Trump is a crook. Born crooked, lived his whole life crooked, crooked still. Probably be a crook until the day he dies. Maybe he’ll go down for this bullshit, I have no idea. I hope he does, not because I’m all butt-hurt because Hillary lost, but because he is a cancer on the nation and, frankly, the world, and we’ll be better with him gone.
    The (R)’s are whole other topic. American conservatives need to get their at together and build a new party. The one they have now is toxic.

  469. Look the president just wrote a 140 character insult of LeBron James, never mind about that EPA stuff. Brennan said Trump is committing treason but has no direct knowledge that it’s true, ignore that easing on the stress tests. Wait LeBron answered, wow that was a real gotcha. Huge anti white supremacist rally yesterday, the only white supremacist that showed up was grounded by his dad. Look we reorganized the military and added a space force and hired another 5000 Trump supporters as GS24’s, never mind Trump just back handedly insulted Aretha.
    I quote the whole passage cause it intersects with the way this blog is currently run. I have no plans on telling people what they are supposed to talk about, but I do get a bit hot under the collar when people tell other people what they should or should not talk about _here_. Perhaps that means that I am enabling the situation that Marty discusses above, but being on the other side of the world, if I don’t understand why people are talking about one thing and not the other, I assume that there is some deficit in what I know.
    Recently, the term ‘whataboutery’ has come up, which gives a name to this. I acknowledge that the minority (in this case conservative leaning commenters here) are always going to be accused of this more often (underlining the fact that it sucks to be a minority) and I try to be careful about my complaints about this. I also realize that some commenters are ‘reactive’, in that they are reacting to comments by others and trying to figure out where to accept that reaction is a part of blog back and forth and when it causes the problems that Marty points out can be tough. I try to judge it by the distance from the original discussion, but that is most certainly subjective and I’m sure that other people might feel that a comment that I think is only tangential is actually intimately related to the matter at hand. I am also sure that, as a member of the majority here, I don’t get it right all the time, but I feel it would be more helpful if the case were stated clearly rather than tossed out as an aside. Thanks.

  470. Look the president just wrote a 140 character insult of LeBron James, never mind about that EPA stuff. Brennan said Trump is committing treason but has no direct knowledge that it’s true, ignore that easing on the stress tests. Wait LeBron answered, wow that was a real gotcha. Huge anti white supremacist rally yesterday, the only white supremacist that showed up was grounded by his dad. Look we reorganized the military and added a space force and hired another 5000 Trump supporters as GS24’s, never mind Trump just back handedly insulted Aretha.
    I quote the whole passage cause it intersects with the way this blog is currently run. I have no plans on telling people what they are supposed to talk about, but I do get a bit hot under the collar when people tell other people what they should or should not talk about _here_. Perhaps that means that I am enabling the situation that Marty discusses above, but being on the other side of the world, if I don’t understand why people are talking about one thing and not the other, I assume that there is some deficit in what I know.
    Recently, the term ‘whataboutery’ has come up, which gives a name to this. I acknowledge that the minority (in this case conservative leaning commenters here) are always going to be accused of this more often (underlining the fact that it sucks to be a minority) and I try to be careful about my complaints about this. I also realize that some commenters are ‘reactive’, in that they are reacting to comments by others and trying to figure out where to accept that reaction is a part of blog back and forth and when it causes the problems that Marty points out can be tough. I try to judge it by the distance from the original discussion, but that is most certainly subjective and I’m sure that other people might feel that a comment that I think is only tangential is actually intimately related to the matter at hand. I am also sure that, as a member of the majority here, I don’t get it right all the time, but I feel it would be more helpful if the case were stated clearly rather than tossed out as an aside. Thanks.

  471. Fine with me if folks want to talk about the EPA or relaxing stress test requirements.
    If folks do want to talk about that, maybe lead off with “Let’s talk about the EPA and relaxing the stress test requirements”.
    I also understand that it’s a PITA to be in the minority on a blog. It takes a ton of endless work to make an argument, wade through the knee-jerk responses, clarify over and over and over again what it is you’re trying to say.
    If folks want to discuss stuff that is more substantial than Trump’s tweets about LeBron or what he said about Aretha, then please do proceed. The floor is more than open.
    Lead the way.

  472. Fine with me if folks want to talk about the EPA or relaxing stress test requirements.
    If folks do want to talk about that, maybe lead off with “Let’s talk about the EPA and relaxing the stress test requirements”.
    I also understand that it’s a PITA to be in the minority on a blog. It takes a ton of endless work to make an argument, wade through the knee-jerk responses, clarify over and over and over again what it is you’re trying to say.
    If folks want to discuss stuff that is more substantial than Trump’s tweets about LeBron or what he said about Aretha, then please do proceed. The floor is more than open.
    Lead the way.

  475. If I’m not missing something, we now have the first GOP Congressman to endorse Trump (Chris Collins) arrested for corruption. Followed by the second Congressman to do so (Duncan Hunter) being also arrested.
    Now the question is, should we look for the next corruption arrest to be the third Congressman to endorse Trump (Tom Marino)? Or the next member of Congress (albeit not a member of the House) to do so — which would be then-Senator/now-AG Jeff Sessions? I mean, the pattern overall looks clear, but the precise details are still fuzzy.

  476. If I’m not missing something, we now have the first GOP Congressman to endorse Trump (Chris Collins) arrested for corruption. Followed by the second Congressman to do so (Duncan Hunter) being also arrested.
    Now the question is, should we look for the next corruption arrest to be the third Congressman to endorse Trump (Tom Marino)? Or the next member of Congress (albeit not a member of the House) to do so — which would be then-Senator/now-AG Jeff Sessions? I mean, the pattern overall looks clear, but the precise details are still fuzzy.

  479. I think Marty’s point was more about Trump’s ability to distract the media from the substance of what he’s doing by getting them to focus on his silly antics. Whether this is by design or happenstance is another question. Maybe a bit of both.

  480. I think Marty’s point was more about Trump’s ability to distract the media from the substance of what he’s doing by getting them to focus on his silly antics. Whether this is by design or happenstance is another question. Maybe a bit of both.

  483. “Whether this is by design or happenstance is another question. Maybe a bit of both.”
    I think it is both. Trump is unable or has great difficulty controlling himself. But has less of an incentive to try since his tweets and statements distract attention from much of what he is doing. He might be smart enough to realize that. Plus some of his statements, like the bigoted ones, appeal to a significant fraction of his supporters and they get a thrill watching liberals go nuts.

  484. “Whether this is by design or happenstance is another question. Maybe a bit of both.”
    I think it is both. Trump is unable or has great difficulty controlling himself. But has less of an incentive to try since his tweets and statements distract attention from much of what he is doing. He might be smart enough to realize that. Plus some of his statements, like the bigoted ones, appeal to a significant fraction of his supporters and they get a thrill watching liberals go nuts.

  485. I think Marty’s point was more about Trump’s ability to distract the media from the substance of what he’s doing
    I think Marty had a variety of points going on, of which that was one.
    I’m actually more than interested in discussing either or both of the EPA or stress test relaxation issues. I’d be happy to ignore Trump and his attention-hogging antics for the rest of his natural life.
    He’s a crook. His family are crooks. His associates are crooks. Half his cabinet are crooks. He managed to become POTUS through sheer bullshitting skill, honed over a lifetime.
    If you voted for him, more fool you.
    At some point, he’ll either be thrown out of office, or replaced via elections or term limitations.
    Whichever way, can’t happen soon enough for me.
    I’m not sure what else there is to say about the man. His combover? His gold-plated toilet? Why do his boys use so much hair product?
    Why not discuss the hypothetical virtues of Jerry Springer as POTUS? It’d be just about as worthwhile.
    Bugger him and the horse he rode in on.
    Next topic?

  486. I think Marty’s point was more about Trump’s ability to distract the media from the substance of what he’s doing
    I think Marty had a variety of points going on, of which that was one.
    I’m actually more than interested in discussing either or both of the EPA or stress test relaxation issues. I’d be happy to ignore Trump and his attention-hogging antics for the rest of his natural life.
    He’s a crook. His family are crooks. His associates are crooks. Half his cabinet are crooks. He managed to become POTUS through sheer bullshitting skill, honed over a lifetime.
    If you voted for him, more fool you.
    At some point, he’ll either be thrown out of office, or replaced via elections or term limitations.
    Whichever way, can’t happen soon enough for me.
    I’m not sure what else there is to say about the man. His combover? His gold-plated toilet? Why do his boys use so much hair product?
    Why not discuss the hypothetical virtues of Jerry Springer as POTUS? It’d be just about as worthwhile.
    Bugger him and the horse he rode in on.
    Next topic?

  487. It has been my practice not to say or write his name, although I might have gotten careless once or twice; Clickbait is my substitute.
    I have thought for a long time that “we” ought to have an agreed-upon day, scheduled like the big protests, when he is not mentioned anywhere, by anyone, who is unhappy with … the situation. No blogging, no bitching, no news media, *no coverage at all.* Because I do think he courts the outrage on purpose, and gets fed by it, and thus gets ever worse. Along with his cultists.
    He probably wouldn’t notice, since his cult, esp. Fox, wouldn’t go along with it. But to whatever extent they all get fed by pissing off the libs, or should I say normal people, maybe he *would* mind.
    The risk is that the result might be the petulant tantrum that destroys the world, but I have a feeling, or maybe just a forlorn hope, that at this point no one would obey the necessary orders to make that happen.
    Now back to my regularly scheduled not talking about him.

  488. It has been my practice not to say or write his name, although I might have gotten careless once or twice; Clickbait is my substitute.
    I have thought for a long time that “we” ought to have an agreed-upon day, scheduled like the big protests, when he is not mentioned anywhere, by anyone, who is unhappy with … the situation. No blogging, no bitching, no news media, *no coverage at all.* Because I do think he courts the outrage on purpose, and gets fed by it, and thus gets ever worse. Along with his cultists.
    He probably wouldn’t notice, since his cult, esp. Fox, wouldn’t go along with it. But to whatever extent they all get fed by pissing off the libs, or should I say normal people, maybe he *would* mind.
    The risk is that the result might be the petulant tantrum that destroys the world, but I have a feeling, or maybe just a forlorn hope, that at this point no one would obey the necessary orders to make that happen.
    Now back to my regularly scheduled not talking about him.

  489. i’ve been waiting for years for the day when Colbert no longer does 15 minutes of monologue about Trump.

  490. i’ve been waiting for years for the day when Colbert no longer does 15 minutes of monologue about Trump.

  491. Why not discuss the hypothetical virtues of Jerry Springer as POTUS?
    In all honesty, I think he’d be a big improvement over the one we now have, based on what I know of his personal history (not that I want to discuss it any further than that, but it does say something about our current state of affairs, or at least my opinion thereof).

  492. Why not discuss the hypothetical virtues of Jerry Springer as POTUS?
    In all honesty, I think he’d be a big improvement over the one we now have, based on what I know of his personal history (not that I want to discuss it any further than that, but it does say something about our current state of affairs, or at least my opinion thereof).

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