Sweet Home Alabama — Election Open Thread

by

by wj

I was intending to put up a thread like this Monday evening, on the thought that we might have something to say as events unfolded in Alabama Tuesday. But today brought something worth starting early.

The election in Alabama seems to be very close, with the result hinging on (primarily) turnout, and (secondarily) how many staunch Republicans will vote for someone not-Roy-Moore. Both of those feel, from the far side of the country, like a matter of permission.

Then this happened**. The senior, Republican, Senator from Alabama, Richard Shelby, got up this morning and said:

“I didn’t vote for Roy Moore. I wouldn’t vote for Roy Moore. I think the Republican Party can do better.”

(He also said that believes the women, and that his former counterpart, Attorney General Jeff Sessions, has likewise said he had no reason to doubt Moore’s accusers.)

He not only said he hasn’t voted for Moore yet, he said that he plans to write in someone else on his ballot. (He declined to say who.)

Think about that for a moment. If you are a totally tribal Republican partisan in Alabama, you just got a top guy in your party saying that it’s just fine to not vote for your party’s nominee. In a race as close as this one looks to be, that could tip the balance.

Now we get to see how the vote counts go.

** The Alabama Media Group is local. It publishes several of the biggest papers in Alabama, and also runs some TV news. They date back a couple of centuries in Alabama. That is, they aren’t some coastal elite telling Alabamans what to do. And they ran an editorial this morning saying Our View: Conservatives should consider Senator Shelby’s example.

1,108 thoughts on “Sweet Home Alabama — Election Open Thread”

  3. I turned away a wine the other night that had a hint of dog shit in it, with allegations of fascism and a varnishy finish of death to the Other.
    https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/12/where-did-roy-moore-learn-to-speak.html
    It would be nice to learn that doing the right thing vis-a-vis sexual harassment, or anything else, would be the winning formula in 2017 America.
    Wrong vintage, wrong vineyard.
    Ben Sasse, Jeff Flake, and Richard Shelby have the identical murderous voting record as Roy Moore hopes to.

  4. I turned away a wine the other night that had a hint of dog shit in it, with allegations of fascism and a varnishy finish of death to the Other.
    https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/12/where-did-roy-moore-learn-to-speak.html
    It would be nice to learn that doing the right thing vis-a-vis sexual harassment, or anything else, would be the winning formula in 2017 America.
    Wrong vintage, wrong vineyard.
    Ben Sasse, Jeff Flake, and Richard Shelby have the identical murderous voting record as Roy Moore hopes to.

  5. Count, if you can’t see Moore as substantially worse than those 3 (regardless of how much you disagree with them on anything or even everything**), I really feel sorry for you.
    ** Personally, I disagree with Shelby on virtually everything. Except that Moore is scum who shouldn’t be elected. And I submit that you, too, agree with Shelby on that one point.

  6. Count, if you can’t see Moore as substantially worse than those 3 (regardless of how much you disagree with them on anything or even everything**), I really feel sorry for you.
    ** Personally, I disagree with Shelby on virtually everything. Except that Moore is scum who shouldn’t be elected. And I submit that you, too, agree with Shelby on that one point.

  7. It would be nice to learn that doing the right thing vis-a-vis sexual harassment, or anything else, would be the winning formula in 2017 America.
    We’ll see.
    In any event, 2018 is likely to be more consequential, and on a cynical calculus, either result helps the Democrats. A win makes the electoral calculus of gaining control of the Senate significantly easier; a win for Moore will be a festering sore for the Republicans, and could just tip the balance next year.

  8. It would be nice to learn that doing the right thing vis-a-vis sexual harassment, or anything else, would be the winning formula in 2017 America.
    We’ll see.
    In any event, 2018 is likely to be more consequential, and on a cynical calculus, either result helps the Democrats. A win makes the electoral calculus of gaining control of the Senate significantly easier; a win for Moore will be a festering sore for the Republicans, and could just tip the balance next year.

  9. I am uncomfortable about this election. A good friend who lives in Alabama tells me he suspects the polls are underestimating Moore’s popularity because of a sort of “Bradley effect.”
    Voters are reluctant to admit to pollsters that they support Moore, but will vote for him in the booth.

  10. I am uncomfortable about this election. A good friend who lives in Alabama tells me he suspects the polls are underestimating Moore’s popularity because of a sort of “Bradley effect.”
    Voters are reluctant to admit to pollsters that they support Moore, but will vote for him in the booth.

  13. If Dems were competent at ratfnckery, there would be signs all over “deep red” voting districts in AL, informing the locals:
    “PEDOPHILE SUPPORTERS VOTE HERE—>”
    Unfortunately, the people who knew how to do that stuff are now to be found in those voting queues, eager to pull the lever for their pedophile fellow tribe-member.

  14. If Dems were competent at ratfnckery, there would be signs all over “deep red” voting districts in AL, informing the locals:
    “PEDOPHILE SUPPORTERS VOTE HERE—>”
    Unfortunately, the people who knew how to do that stuff are now to be found in those voting queues, eager to pull the lever for their pedophile fellow tribe-member.

  17. Tee hee

    A Democratic lawmaker in the House is calling on the Senate Sergeant at Arms to take steps “to prepare the Page Program for the possible election of Roy Moore.” In a letter to the Sergeant at Arms Frank Larkin, Rep. Gwen Moore, D-Wisconsin, said she urges him to protect Senate pages.
    “I would like to know what preventative steps are being undertaken to safeguard Senate Pages from predatory conduct of U.S. Senators and Senate staff,” she wrote. “It would be unconscionable for Congress to not be vigilant and proactive in taking precautions to safeguard these children given the well sourced allegations against Roy Moore.”

  18. Tee hee

    A Democratic lawmaker in the House is calling on the Senate Sergeant at Arms to take steps “to prepare the Page Program for the possible election of Roy Moore.” In a letter to the Sergeant at Arms Frank Larkin, Rep. Gwen Moore, D-Wisconsin, said she urges him to protect Senate pages.
    “I would like to know what preventative steps are being undertaken to safeguard Senate Pages from predatory conduct of U.S. Senators and Senate staff,” she wrote. “It would be unconscionable for Congress to not be vigilant and proactive in taking precautions to safeguard these children given the well sourced allegations against Roy Moore.”

  19. A good friend who lives in Alabama tells me he suspects the polls are underestimating Moore’s popularity because of a sort of “Bradley effect.”
    Voters are reluctant to admit to pollsters that they support Moore, but will vote for him in the booth.
    That is, of course, possible. On the other hand, there may also be people who are uncomfortable admitting that they are voting for a (shudder!) Democrat. We shall see

  20. A good friend who lives in Alabama tells me he suspects the polls are underestimating Moore’s popularity because of a sort of “Bradley effect.”
    Voters are reluctant to admit to pollsters that they support Moore, but will vote for him in the booth.
    That is, of course, possible. On the other hand, there may also be people who are uncomfortable admitting that they are voting for a (shudder!) Democrat. We shall see

  21. The Fox poll is interesting because it includes cell phone users.
    It also used a sample of about 1100, which I think is bigger than some others.

  22. The Fox poll is interesting because it includes cell phone users.
    It also used a sample of about 1100, which I think is bigger than some others.

  29. OK, I’ll get brave and make a prediction: IF cell phone users (i.e. younger voters) turn out at the same rate as those with land lines (i.e. older, more rural voters), Jones not only wins but wins big.
    That’s because I believe what Fox News (at least their poll) tells me. 😉

  30. OK, I’ll get brave and make a prediction: IF cell phone users (i.e. younger voters) turn out at the same rate as those with land lines (i.e. older, more rural voters), Jones not only wins but wins big.
    That’s because I believe what Fox News (at least their poll) tells me. 😉

  31. That’s because I believe what Fox News (at least their poll) tells me.
    i’m finding it harder and harder to believe anything Fox News says – even polls.
    as the prophet David Byrne tells us : facts all come with points of view

  32. That’s because I believe what Fox News (at least their poll) tells me.
    i’m finding it harder and harder to believe anything Fox News says – even polls.
    as the prophet David Byrne tells us : facts all come with points of view

  35. Other than sitting in his lap and addressing him as Daddy, this little girl did everything in her power to scoop FOX, Breitbart, Leni Riefenstahl, and Vlad Putin in the new conservative fake journobanalism:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIa_m1cu7Hc
    Moore didn’t speak Russian in this one, but there were tongues and lip service.
    I hope Moore wins. I hope North Korea launches everything they have at America. I hope global climate change hurries up. I hope the entire safety net, including my Medicare, is abolished. I hope the Yellowstone lava dome goes kablooey.
    Asteroids, please hurry. Grow larger and more destructive as you approach Earth. Take the shape of Jesus so fucked up death loving conservative sadistic Americans run outside into the open to greet you as you enter the Earth’s atmosphere.
    Anything to rid us of this murderous republican pigshit from the face of the Earth.
    My instincts are to believe with Rod Dreher …
    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/douthat-sullivan-colorado-cake-baker/
    …that the conservative cake maker in Lakewood, Colorado, about ten miles from me, should not be forced by law to bake cake for gay weddings.
    However, I also know the Rod Dreher of the Benedict Option is summed up in these commentators words:
    “sponder says:
    December 11, 2017 at 8:40 am
    Rod, I want to take this at face value, but it absolutely has to be put in context of where you stand. I am going to list (once again) your stated positions. I understand these are nuanced, but they are your positions just the same.
    -The state should reserve the right to make illegal homosexual sex.
    -Individuals, some institutions and some businesses should be allowed to deny services, employment and housing to gays.
    -Homosexuals should not be allowed to serve in the military
    -Gays and gay couple should not be allowed to adopt or be foster parents, or at the very least be at the bottom of the list.
    -Those engaging in homosexual sex are the moral equivalent of adulterers- namely unfaithful liars and cheats.
    I light of this, where is the “live and let live’ on your part?”
    The cake baker is merely small, like a vaguely poisonous, but otherwise harmless toad, but live and let live. He won’t bake a cake for Halloween parties either, somehow believing that America, via its vast, banal commercial deracinating power, hasn’t already emptied every last enchantment out of that holiday, too.
    Happy Halloween? Why haven’t the Evil One and his minion worshipers protested THAT greeting like Happy Holidays just as taken as butt hurt by demagogic dumb shits like ump.
    I do believe, however, that Neil Gorsuch, who wrote his Oxford philosophy thesis on the unconstitionality of gay marriage and other issues, will be joined by far-right judges as rump packs the Court in future years and the gay marriage decision will be reversed.
    Then, as well, all Federal law disallowing discrimination in America will be overturned, in the name of the crabbed, conservative conception of freedom.
    They and their donors want it all.
    America is a cake. And only white Christian conservatives get any.
    The highest form of life to these ilk is the white corporate pass-through fetus.
    All other life on Earth is subhuman to them.

  36. Other than sitting in his lap and addressing him as Daddy, this little girl did everything in her power to scoop FOX, Breitbart, Leni Riefenstahl, and Vlad Putin in the new conservative fake journobanalism:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIa_m1cu7Hc
    Moore didn’t speak Russian in this one, but there were tongues and lip service.
    I hope Moore wins. I hope North Korea launches everything they have at America. I hope global climate change hurries up. I hope the entire safety net, including my Medicare, is abolished. I hope the Yellowstone lava dome goes kablooey.
    Asteroids, please hurry. Grow larger and more destructive as you approach Earth. Take the shape of Jesus so fucked up death loving conservative sadistic Americans run outside into the open to greet you as you enter the Earth’s atmosphere.
    Anything to rid us of this murderous republican pigshit from the face of the Earth.
    My instincts are to believe with Rod Dreher …
    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/douthat-sullivan-colorado-cake-baker/
    …that the conservative cake maker in Lakewood, Colorado, about ten miles from me, should not be forced by law to bake cake for gay weddings.
    However, I also know the Rod Dreher of the Benedict Option is summed up in these commentators words:
    “sponder says:
    December 11, 2017 at 8:40 am
    Rod, I want to take this at face value, but it absolutely has to be put in context of where you stand. I am going to list (once again) your stated positions. I understand these are nuanced, but they are your positions just the same.
    -The state should reserve the right to make illegal homosexual sex.
    -Individuals, some institutions and some businesses should be allowed to deny services, employment and housing to gays.
    -Homosexuals should not be allowed to serve in the military
    -Gays and gay couple should not be allowed to adopt or be foster parents, or at the very least be at the bottom of the list.
    -Those engaging in homosexual sex are the moral equivalent of adulterers- namely unfaithful liars and cheats.
    I light of this, where is the “live and let live’ on your part?”
    The cake baker is merely small, like a vaguely poisonous, but otherwise harmless toad, but live and let live. He won’t bake a cake for Halloween parties either, somehow believing that America, via its vast, banal commercial deracinating power, hasn’t already emptied every last enchantment out of that holiday, too.
    Happy Halloween? Why haven’t the Evil One and his minion worshipers protested THAT greeting like Happy Holidays just as taken as butt hurt by demagogic dumb shits like ump.
    I do believe, however, that Neil Gorsuch, who wrote his Oxford philosophy thesis on the unconstitionality of gay marriage and other issues, will be joined by far-right judges as rump packs the Court in future years and the gay marriage decision will be reversed.
    Then, as well, all Federal law disallowing discrimination in America will be overturned, in the name of the crabbed, conservative conception of freedom.
    They and their donors want it all.
    America is a cake. And only white Christian conservatives get any.
    The highest form of life to these ilk is the white corporate pass-through fetus.
    All other life on Earth is subhuman to them.

  37. Understood. But given their known point of view, if they say that Jones is up by 10%….
    Everyone thinks this one is all about turnout, yes? So if you don’t want your voters to get complacent…

  38. Understood. But given their known point of view, if they say that Jones is up by 10%….
    Everyone thinks this one is all about turnout, yes? So if you don’t want your voters to get complacent…

  39. Everyone thinks this one is all about turnout, yes? So if you don’t want your voters to get complacent…
    You took the words right out of my…fingertips.
    I thin wj is just too trusting. 😉

  40. Everyone thinks this one is all about turnout, yes? So if you don’t want your voters to get complacent…
    You took the words right out of my…fingertips.
    I thin wj is just too trusting. 😉

  41. A vote against Doug Jones is a vote for Eric Rudolph and the the bombers of the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham, Alabama.
    http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a14409208/alabama-racism/
    What, did we think Moore and the republican party will only pass laws making it illegal for women to hold public office or to NOT be discriminated against in employment because the little minxes just can’t stop trying to sexually assault we good, Christian white men?
    Mike Pence doesn’t have his wife along to stop HIM from pussy-grabbing. He wants the wife there because knows in his tiny black, bizarro Jimmy Carter heart that he is irresistible to overheated, always wet womankind.
    Why, they can’t help themselves. Especially those liberal women who have the sex drives of gay male sailors and black pimps.

  42. A vote against Doug Jones is a vote for Eric Rudolph and the the bombers of the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham, Alabama.
    http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a14409208/alabama-racism/
    What, did we think Moore and the republican party will only pass laws making it illegal for women to hold public office or to NOT be discriminated against in employment because the little minxes just can’t stop trying to sexually assault we good, Christian white men?
    Mike Pence doesn’t have his wife along to stop HIM from pussy-grabbing. He wants the wife there because knows in his tiny black, bizarro Jimmy Carter heart that he is irresistible to overheated, always wet womankind.
    Why, they can’t help themselves. Especially those liberal women who have the sex drives of gay male sailors and black pimps.

  43. re Gorsuch. He lied to Congress in his confirmation hearings when he said that he believed Obergefell vrs Hodges is settled law.
    For him and his libidinous, dead, right-wing mother, no case law, Constitutional Amendment, or government practice established since 1776 is settled.

  44. re Gorsuch. He lied to Congress in his confirmation hearings when he said that he believed Obergefell vrs Hodges is settled law.
    For him and his libidinous, dead, right-wing mother, no case law, Constitutional Amendment, or government practice established since 1776 is settled.

  45. I thin wj is just too trusting. 😉
    Not trusting. Just determinedly optimistic.
    After all, suppose Jones wins. Trump’s ability to scare Congressional Republicans into doing what he wants plummets. (Yes, I know a bunch of them are true believers, who don’t need to be scared. I’m talking about the othets. After all, the actual balance of power in Congress isn’t anywhere as skewed as it sometimes seems.)
    Not to mention that, with a Jones win, the odds of McConnell’s reign in the Senate ending just massively improved.

  46. I thin wj is just too trusting. 😉
    Not trusting. Just determinedly optimistic.
    After all, suppose Jones wins. Trump’s ability to scare Congressional Republicans into doing what he wants plummets. (Yes, I know a bunch of them are true believers, who don’t need to be scared. I’m talking about the othets. After all, the actual balance of power in Congress isn’t anywhere as skewed as it sometimes seems.)
    Not to mention that, with a Jones win, the odds of McConnell’s reign in the Senate ending just massively improved.

  47. I hope these rump republican terrorists are successful in their legal ploy and are acquitted.
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/three-men-accused-kansas-mosque-bomb-plot-request-pro-trump-jurors
    I want truck bombs, as does the NRA, to be protected weaponry, to be driven in public without limitation, under the Second Amendment, as God intended.
    I want threats to murder to be protected speech. Hell, God, his own hermaphroditic self, with Allah’s approval, casts murder threats all the time, like when Eve took Roy Moore’s hands and forced them up her skirts, or when Sodom and Gomorrah made their reputations and the first global flooding caused Noah to ask: “Kangaroo? What’s that? Set sail, mates!”
    Now, under the new tax law, christian churches in America can finance their bringing of fire and brimstone down upon the heads of their enemies with ample Koch (not pronounced “cock”) money.
    I want these freedoms too.

  48. I hope these rump republican terrorists are successful in their legal ploy and are acquitted.
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/three-men-accused-kansas-mosque-bomb-plot-request-pro-trump-jurors
    I want truck bombs, as does the NRA, to be protected weaponry, to be driven in public without limitation, under the Second Amendment, as God intended.
    I want threats to murder to be protected speech. Hell, God, his own hermaphroditic self, with Allah’s approval, casts murder threats all the time, like when Eve took Roy Moore’s hands and forced them up her skirts, or when Sodom and Gomorrah made their reputations and the first global flooding caused Noah to ask: “Kangaroo? What’s that? Set sail, mates!”
    Now, under the new tax law, christian churches in America can finance their bringing of fire and brimstone down upon the heads of their enemies with ample Koch (not pronounced “cock”) money.
    I want these freedoms too.

  49. “Not to mention that, with a Jones win, the odds of McConnell’s reign in the Senate ending just massively improved.”
    It could end with Moore’s election, too, as ump and bannon, with ryan’s smirking gee-I-wouldn’t-presume-to-know-anything-bout-dat-approval, successfully connive to elevate Moore to Senate Majority leader, with the help of whatever grotesque monster defeats McConnell in his next Kentucky primary.
    Either way, McConnell gets its, and good riddance.
    One day, by hook or by crook, but probably via revolutionary catastrophe, and I favor the latter, Merrick Garland will get his hearing in Congress to replace Clarence Thomas.

  50. “Not to mention that, with a Jones win, the odds of McConnell’s reign in the Senate ending just massively improved.”
    It could end with Moore’s election, too, as ump and bannon, with ryan’s smirking gee-I-wouldn’t-presume-to-know-anything-bout-dat-approval, successfully connive to elevate Moore to Senate Majority leader, with the help of whatever grotesque monster defeats McConnell in his next Kentucky primary.
    Either way, McConnell gets its, and good riddance.
    One day, by hook or by crook, but probably via revolutionary catastrophe, and I favor the latter, Merrick Garland will get his hearing in Congress to replace Clarence Thomas.

  53. Well, it probably says everything you need to know about her that she is willing to be married to him. (My, that was snarky of me, wasn’t it?)

  54. Well, it probably says everything you need to know about her that she is willing to be married to him. (My, that was snarky of me, wasn’t it?)

  55. “Well, it probably says everything you need to know about her that she is willing to be married to him. ”
    Love is blind.
    And oblivious to the stench of corruption too, it seems.

  56. “Well, it probably says everything you need to know about her that she is willing to be married to him. ”
    Love is blind.
    And oblivious to the stench of corruption too, it seems.

  57. I’m afraid that the weather looks like it is going to work in Moore’s advantage. The forecast is calling for it to dip into the teens.

  58. I’m afraid that the weather looks like it is going to work in Moore’s advantage. The forecast is calling for it to dip into the teens.

  63. The forecast is calling for it to dip into the teens.
    I saw what you did there.
    Cute. Definitely cuite.
    But note that younger voters, i.e. Jones voters, are more likely to be able to brave the cold. Us ancient specimens, especially in climates where we don’t have gear to deal with it, tend to find it harder to deal with. Easier to just stay home….

  64. The forecast is calling for it to dip into the teens.
    I saw what you did there.
    Cute. Definitely cuite.
    But note that younger voters, i.e. Jones voters, are more likely to be able to brave the cold. Us ancient specimens, especially in climates where we don’t have gear to deal with it, tend to find it harder to deal with. Easier to just stay home….

  65. This“>https://www.vox.com/2017/12/12/16762816/roy-moore-alabama-tv-data”>This is what happens when you water down phrases like sexual misconduct. It is a pet peeve of mine, but I HATE HATE HATE when groups try to amp up their causes by watering down strong offenses so they can inflate statistics.
    It made me absolutely crazy to hear about Franken allegedly going for a kiss when someone wanted a hug as ‘sexual battery’ or ‘sexual misconduct’. Being unwilling to draw lines plays DIRECTLY into protecting predators because they can invoke the ambiguity of the language of misconduct to dial down the seriousness of their offenses just like the activists used it to inappropriately amp it up.

  66. This“>https://www.vox.com/2017/12/12/16762816/roy-moore-alabama-tv-data”>This is what happens when you water down phrases like sexual misconduct. It is a pet peeve of mine, but I HATE HATE HATE when groups try to amp up their causes by watering down strong offenses so they can inflate statistics.
    It made me absolutely crazy to hear about Franken allegedly going for a kiss when someone wanted a hug as ‘sexual battery’ or ‘sexual misconduct’. Being unwilling to draw lines plays DIRECTLY into protecting predators because they can invoke the ambiguity of the language of misconduct to dial down the seriousness of their offenses just like the activists used it to inappropriately amp it up.

  67. Ugh I bargled the link. Lets try again.
    This time did it work?
    The key takeaway is that in Alabama most of the reports link Moore to ‘alleged sexual misconduct’. But not allegedly molesting teenage girls or even allegedly trying to date underage girls.
    For years I’ve seen activists try to get big headline numbers for things like “X% of women subjected to sexual misconduct” but blatantly lumping in an unwanted hug with rape. This strikes me as the exact opposite of offering solidarity with rape victims and people who were forced to choose between sex with the boss and getting fired.
    But it also promotes an ambiguity about the seriousness of the charges. Activists want this ambiguity because it allows them to emotionally link the less serious parts of their cause with the more serious parts. But the problem is that this muddying of the water primes the opportunity for predators to co-opt the activist language to DOWNPLAY their offenses. They will try to downplay it anyway of course, but it is much more effective if activists have already done the work for them. If the predators are the ones who start using the downplaying language on their own, it can be easily called out as a distraction. But when activists have been plowing that field for a decade or more, it is incredibly easy for predators to use that to their advantage.

  68. Ugh I bargled the link. Lets try again.
    This time did it work?
    The key takeaway is that in Alabama most of the reports link Moore to ‘alleged sexual misconduct’. But not allegedly molesting teenage girls or even allegedly trying to date underage girls.
    For years I’ve seen activists try to get big headline numbers for things like “X% of women subjected to sexual misconduct” but blatantly lumping in an unwanted hug with rape. This strikes me as the exact opposite of offering solidarity with rape victims and people who were forced to choose between sex with the boss and getting fired.
    But it also promotes an ambiguity about the seriousness of the charges. Activists want this ambiguity because it allows them to emotionally link the less serious parts of their cause with the more serious parts. But the problem is that this muddying of the water primes the opportunity for predators to co-opt the activist language to DOWNPLAY their offenses. They will try to downplay it anyway of course, but it is much more effective if activists have already done the work for them. If the predators are the ones who start using the downplaying language on their own, it can be easily called out as a distraction. But when activists have been plowing that field for a decade or more, it is incredibly easy for predators to use that to their advantage.

  69. Candidate for quote of the day (I know, the day is young yet):

    “They tried to destroy Donald Trump, and they’re trying to destroy Roy Moore,” Bannon said. “There’s no bottom for how low they’ll go.”

    One has to wonder if he realizes that the reason there is “no bottom to how low they’ll go” is that there is, apparently, no limit to how low his candidates will be.

  70. Candidate for quote of the day (I know, the day is young yet):

    “They tried to destroy Donald Trump, and they’re trying to destroy Roy Moore,” Bannon said. “There’s no bottom for how low they’ll go.”

    One has to wonder if he realizes that the reason there is “no bottom to how low they’ll go” is that there is, apparently, no limit to how low his candidates will be.

  75. I wrote here the other day that the rump alt-right will begin accusing female Democratic lawmakers of sexual harassment and assault.
    ump just set the campaign in motion:
    https://www.balloon-juice.com/2017/12/12/well-that-escalated-quickly/
    The next time Gillibrand meets ump face-to-face, she should punch him as hard she can in his glass jaw, so that his barely adhering dentures fly out of his mouth and hit the far wall.
    This is not figurative speech.
    Assault all conservative republicans.

  76. I wrote here the other day that the rump alt-right will begin accusing female Democratic lawmakers of sexual harassment and assault.
    ump just set the campaign in motion:
    https://www.balloon-juice.com/2017/12/12/well-that-escalated-quickly/
    The next time Gillibrand meets ump face-to-face, she should punch him as hard she can in his glass jaw, so that his barely adhering dentures fly out of his mouth and hit the far wall.
    This is not figurative speech.
    Assault all conservative republicans.

  79. By the end of next year, the United States will be in full blown bloody Civil War… Street to street, house to house.
    Damn, and people laugh at me when I talk about peaceful partition.

  80. By the end of next year, the United States will be in full blown bloody Civil War… Street to street, house to house.
    Damn, and people laugh at me when I talk about peaceful partition.

  81. The Count has been spouting violent (I hope) hyperbole for so long now that I’m almost inured to it.
    Which doesn’t really seem a good thing.

  82. The Count has been spouting violent (I hope) hyperbole for so long now that I’m almost inured to it.
    Which doesn’t really seem a good thing.

  85. Seb: Being unwilling to draw lines plays DIRECTLY into protecting predators …
    THIS. And by “this” I mean every word of Seb’s comments at 12:11 and 12:24 above.
    I note with some consternation that the Senate Democrats explicitly rejected this when calling for Franken’s resignation.
    Michael Cain: Damn, and people laugh at me when I talk about peaceful partition.
    I do not laugh. I do wonder how a “peaceful” partition could work without an exchange of populations.
    What I get laughed at for is advocating boycotts. Imagine libruls refusing to do business with local conservatives and vice versa. Naturally, the conservatives would pout that they should be a protected class. The libruls, rejecting “discrimination” in any form, would cave. So boycotts would become just another arrow exclusive to the conservative quiver.
    Pitchforks and torches are sounding better all the time.
    –TP

  86. Seb: Being unwilling to draw lines plays DIRECTLY into protecting predators …
    THIS. And by “this” I mean every word of Seb’s comments at 12:11 and 12:24 above.
    I note with some consternation that the Senate Democrats explicitly rejected this when calling for Franken’s resignation.
    Michael Cain: Damn, and people laugh at me when I talk about peaceful partition.
    I do not laugh. I do wonder how a “peaceful” partition could work without an exchange of populations.
    What I get laughed at for is advocating boycotts. Imagine libruls refusing to do business with local conservatives and vice versa. Naturally, the conservatives would pout that they should be a protected class. The libruls, rejecting “discrimination” in any form, would cave. So boycotts would become just another arrow exclusive to the conservative quiver.
    Pitchforks and torches are sounding better all the time.
    –TP

  87. “Partition”, as I read it, implicitly assumes that everybody in a particular state (or whatever) agrees with the position of the majority there. Which is manifestly not the case — witness the fact that Jones has even a remote chance of winning tonight.
    So if you support partition, you are explicitly (whether you admit it or not) proposing to hang a huge number of people out to dry.

  88. “Partition”, as I read it, implicitly assumes that everybody in a particular state (or whatever) agrees with the position of the majority there. Which is manifestly not the case — witness the fact that Jones has even a remote chance of winning tonight.
    So if you support partition, you are explicitly (whether you admit it or not) proposing to hang a huge number of people out to dry.

  89. Doctor Science referenced Moore’s evident anti-Semitism above.
    This exchange is revealing:
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/moore-campaign-spokesman-silent-when-told-bible-not-necessary-for-swearing-in
    You’ll notice Tapper used the example that an elected public official could choose, absolutely legally (expect that to be changed as the Supreme Court becomes Gorsuched) to use the Torah to be sworn into office in America, and that stopped the republican moore fuck in his tracks.
    That rump swore himself in with a Bible makes about as much sense as Porky Pig swearing himself into the Presidency by placing his hand on the score to Mary Had A Little Lamb.
    The species isn’t even close.
    Jewish Bible, you say, the Moore SS is thinking. We’d better get Jerusalem up and running as the capital of Israel so the Lord returns and winnows the Jew tribe down to its remnants for the end of the fucking world, because obviously we have a Soros Jew problem in the media that this probably liberal fag Jew asks me such questions.
    These are sick psychopaths and sadists. Knowing nothing is the mark on their backsides.
    There has never been anything like these filth in power in American history.
    The healthy should not be forced to Pay for the healthcare of the unhealthy. They guy who said that, a killer, walks around the White House eating food off trays I paid for, even with his swollen prostate.
    Bring it on, filth. The Second Amendment cannot coexist with living Republicans.
    Moore is your garden variety anti-Semite, like rump. He’ll hire a Jew to manage his finances, a short Jew-boy wearing a yarmulke, to quote Aryan ump vermin in the White House.
    Sure, Moore’s attorney is Jewish. So is his abortionist, don’t you know.
    I grew up with this shit, though my parents, decent human beings that they were, learned by living in neighborhoods side by side with Jews, to throw off the generalities and prejudice of pigfucking white Christian America, more or less.
    And yet here we are. It never fucking stops.
    Now, as to my threats of violence. I get it, kids, it’s bad form. I went for a walk, as Russell suggested, and sat back down at the computer … I should really quit and tend my garden like Slart … and America looked exactly the same.
    I’m going to be right. Each iteration of the republican Party over the past 40 years has been like looking at a timeline of 1930s Germany year by year.
    lj’s cite, echoing Sebastian, but the latter is a subtle, sensitive thinker, is plain English.
    I think she’s ready to join me.
    I’m not backing down. But I’ll take a break.

  90. Doctor Science referenced Moore’s evident anti-Semitism above.
    This exchange is revealing:
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/moore-campaign-spokesman-silent-when-told-bible-not-necessary-for-swearing-in
    You’ll notice Tapper used the example that an elected public official could choose, absolutely legally (expect that to be changed as the Supreme Court becomes Gorsuched) to use the Torah to be sworn into office in America, and that stopped the republican moore fuck in his tracks.
    That rump swore himself in with a Bible makes about as much sense as Porky Pig swearing himself into the Presidency by placing his hand on the score to Mary Had A Little Lamb.
    The species isn’t even close.
    Jewish Bible, you say, the Moore SS is thinking. We’d better get Jerusalem up and running as the capital of Israel so the Lord returns and winnows the Jew tribe down to its remnants for the end of the fucking world, because obviously we have a Soros Jew problem in the media that this probably liberal fag Jew asks me such questions.
    These are sick psychopaths and sadists. Knowing nothing is the mark on their backsides.
    There has never been anything like these filth in power in American history.
    The healthy should not be forced to Pay for the healthcare of the unhealthy. They guy who said that, a killer, walks around the White House eating food off trays I paid for, even with his swollen prostate.
    Bring it on, filth. The Second Amendment cannot coexist with living Republicans.
    Moore is your garden variety anti-Semite, like rump. He’ll hire a Jew to manage his finances, a short Jew-boy wearing a yarmulke, to quote Aryan ump vermin in the White House.
    Sure, Moore’s attorney is Jewish. So is his abortionist, don’t you know.
    I grew up with this shit, though my parents, decent human beings that they were, learned by living in neighborhoods side by side with Jews, to throw off the generalities and prejudice of pigfucking white Christian America, more or less.
    And yet here we are. It never fucking stops.
    Now, as to my threats of violence. I get it, kids, it’s bad form. I went for a walk, as Russell suggested, and sat back down at the computer … I should really quit and tend my garden like Slart … and America looked exactly the same.
    I’m going to be right. Each iteration of the republican Party over the past 40 years has been like looking at a timeline of 1930s Germany year by year.
    lj’s cite, echoing Sebastian, but the latter is a subtle, sensitive thinker, is plain English.
    I think she’s ready to join me.
    I’m not backing down. But I’ll take a break.

  93. I don’t live in Alabama, but I do live in Indiana, which is basically Alabama-lite in terms of general political leaning and education statistics. Roy Moore’s acceptance, to me, as an outsider, appears to be a knee-jerk reaction on the right as “I’ll vote for whoever I think will make the Left cry hardest, because it’s hilarious to watch them melt down.”
    Never mind that this is about the worst way to go about selecting your government, at a certain point you reach a Dunning-Krueger event horizon among your voting populace that makes it nearly impossible to pull out of the death spiral.
    Alabama is already one of the hardest-right states in the union, but despite this fact, it seems large numbers of people feel the only way their state will improve is to get rid of the few remaining Democrats…otherwise known as the only people left who are trying to help. Considering the state’s statistics on things like obesity, access to health care, annual income, economic opportunity, and crime, it appears the people of Alabama are deep-sea diving in a raincoat, actively pushing away the rescue divers trying to fit them with scuba gear, while preaching that if more of them just try really really hard, no even harder than that, to breathe underwater it will become a reality because that’s what (Trump/The Bible/Fox News) says, and you just gotta fake it ’til you make it, brother, and you too can be saved!
    Things have to get worse before they get better. I’m terrified of what that means for me, an openly gay woman in a deeply red state, but I spent the better part of two decades fighting for the right to marry the woman I love, and I’m willing to step into the ring and take the blows again if it brings us closer to a society far less divided as what we’ve become in the past eight years. I’ve got enough of a safety net among friends and family. So go ahead: come at me, make it count, and leave the rest of the poor, the disadvantaged, and the sick alone.
    Punch up for once, you miserable sods, you craven cowards, you pathetic excuses for what passes for ‘human’ among the Right these days. I’ll bite my thumb, I’ll throw the shade, I’ll stab at thee from hell’s heart and spit my last breath at thee, but unlike Ahab, it won’t be for hate’s sake, it’ll be for love’s.
    Scorched earth seems like a great idea until you get your way. We’ve a Republic, as Ben Franklin quipped, if we can keep it. I’m growing less optimistic of our ability to do just that by the day, but I’ll be damned if I give up my Republic, or yours, or anybody else’s, without a fight.
    Your move, Alabama. Make it count.

  94. I don’t live in Alabama, but I do live in Indiana, which is basically Alabama-lite in terms of general political leaning and education statistics. Roy Moore’s acceptance, to me, as an outsider, appears to be a knee-jerk reaction on the right as “I’ll vote for whoever I think will make the Left cry hardest, because it’s hilarious to watch them melt down.”
    Never mind that this is about the worst way to go about selecting your government, at a certain point you reach a Dunning-Krueger event horizon among your voting populace that makes it nearly impossible to pull out of the death spiral.
    Alabama is already one of the hardest-right states in the union, but despite this fact, it seems large numbers of people feel the only way their state will improve is to get rid of the few remaining Democrats…otherwise known as the only people left who are trying to help. Considering the state’s statistics on things like obesity, access to health care, annual income, economic opportunity, and crime, it appears the people of Alabama are deep-sea diving in a raincoat, actively pushing away the rescue divers trying to fit them with scuba gear, while preaching that if more of them just try really really hard, no even harder than that, to breathe underwater it will become a reality because that’s what (Trump/The Bible/Fox News) says, and you just gotta fake it ’til you make it, brother, and you too can be saved!
    Things have to get worse before they get better. I’m terrified of what that means for me, an openly gay woman in a deeply red state, but I spent the better part of two decades fighting for the right to marry the woman I love, and I’m willing to step into the ring and take the blows again if it brings us closer to a society far less divided as what we’ve become in the past eight years. I’ve got enough of a safety net among friends and family. So go ahead: come at me, make it count, and leave the rest of the poor, the disadvantaged, and the sick alone.
    Punch up for once, you miserable sods, you craven cowards, you pathetic excuses for what passes for ‘human’ among the Right these days. I’ll bite my thumb, I’ll throw the shade, I’ll stab at thee from hell’s heart and spit my last breath at thee, but unlike Ahab, it won’t be for hate’s sake, it’ll be for love’s.
    Scorched earth seems like a great idea until you get your way. We’ve a Republic, as Ben Franklin quipped, if we can keep it. I’m growing less optimistic of our ability to do just that by the day, but I’ll be damned if I give up my Republic, or yours, or anybody else’s, without a fight.
    Your move, Alabama. Make it count.

  95. Looking at early results, I think Jones has a good chance. Watch Jefferson County (Birmingham), Madison County (Huntsville), and Mobile County (Mobile).

  96. Looking at early results, I think Jones has a good chance. Watch Jefferson County (Birmingham), Madison County (Huntsville), and Mobile County (Mobile).

  99. There has never been anything like these filth in power in American history.
    Oh, come.
    Maybe not at the national level, but Trump could be the archetype for a whole bunch of Territorial governors, and Moore-ism has dominated the governments of various states for much of our nation’s history.

  100. There has never been anything like these filth in power in American history.
    Oh, come.
    Maybe not at the national level, but Trump could be the archetype for a whole bunch of Territorial governors, and Moore-ism has dominated the governments of various states for much of our nation’s history.

  101. Sarah Kendzior
    ✔
    @sarahkendzior
    Alabama’s Secretary of State was an election monitor in Russia, where he deemed their election “free and fair” (it wasn’t) and said he’d implement Russian tactics in Alabama https://www.google.com/amp/whnt.com/2016/09/29/what-did-alabamas-top-election-official-learn-from-monitoring-russian-election/amp/ …
    6:54 AM – Dec 12, 2017
    What did Alabama’s top election official learn from monitoring Russian election?
    MONTGOMERY, Ala. – Alabama’s top election official, Secretary of State John Merrill, just returned from an election monitoring mission in Russia, where he says the process he observed was “free and…
    whnt.com

  102. Sarah Kendzior
    ✔
    @sarahkendzior
    Alabama’s Secretary of State was an election monitor in Russia, where he deemed their election “free and fair” (it wasn’t) and said he’d implement Russian tactics in Alabama https://www.google.com/amp/whnt.com/2016/09/29/what-did-alabamas-top-election-official-learn-from-monitoring-russian-election/amp/ …
    6:54 AM – Dec 12, 2017
    What did Alabama’s top election official learn from monitoring Russian election?
    MONTGOMERY, Ala. – Alabama’s top election official, Secretary of State John Merrill, just returned from an election monitoring mission in Russia, where he says the process he observed was “free and…
    whnt.com

  103. Looks like my comment either got deleted or wound up in the spam queue. If something I said in it offended someone in charge, I apologize.

  104. Looks like my comment either got deleted or wound up in the spam queue. If something I said in it offended someone in charge, I apologize.

  105. Areala — The comment was in the spam filter; I released it. I’m relatively new to the back room and have no idea what the spam filter’s thought processes are, but I thought the comment was fine.
    Fiery, even.

  106. Areala — The comment was in the spam filter; I released it. I’m relatively new to the back room and have no idea what the spam filter’s thought processes are, but I thought the comment was fine.
    Fiery, even.

  107. I’m betting (based on total ignorance) that what upset the spam filter was
    “Dunning-Krueger event horizon”
    Makes sense to me.

  108. I’m betting (based on total ignorance) that what upset the spam filter was
    “Dunning-Krueger event horizon”
    Makes sense to me.

  113. Just saw a couple places (including AP) calling it for Jones. Wow
    Everybody who has been comparing Alabama voters to various demons (zing!) may now extend apologies. Clearly there is a bridge too far, and Moore was it.
    Big question: does Bannon double down in the GOP primaries next year? And to what effect?

  114. Just saw a couple places (including AP) calling it for Jones. Wow
    Everybody who has been comparing Alabama voters to various demons (zing!) may now extend apologies. Clearly there is a bridge too far, and Moore was it.
    Big question: does Bannon double down in the GOP primaries next year? And to what effect?

  117. A win for decency, and democracy..
    Thank you, Alabama, for stepping up! No more ugly stereotyping for you. I’m going to make a tourist visit soon. So grateful!

  118. A win for decency, and democracy..
    Thank you, Alabama, for stepping up! No more ugly stereotyping for you. I’m going to make a tourist visit soon. So grateful!

  119. Any figures for Republican alternative write ins ?
    What makes the victory particularly sweet is Trump’s fulsome endorsement of Moore. The bully’s hold has weakened.

  120. Any figures for Republican alternative write ins ?
    What makes the victory particularly sweet is Trump’s fulsome endorsement of Moore. The bully’s hold has weakened.

  121. Last I saw, write-ins were around 1.7%. Compared to Jones margin of victory of around 0.7%. Note that, in the past, write-ins have been somewhere under 0.1%

  122. Last I saw, write-ins were around 1.7%. Compared to Jones margin of victory of around 0.7%. Note that, in the past, write-ins have been somewhere under 0.1%

  123. “Alabama voters” tonight were evidently less insane than “American voters” were in 2016.
    I can’t remember everything I’ve said about either “Alabama voters” or “American voters” in the past year, but I am perfectly willing to “extend apologies” to the saner group, if it’s any consolation to wj.
    –TP

  124. “Alabama voters” tonight were evidently less insane than “American voters” were in 2016.
    I can’t remember everything I’ve said about either “Alabama voters” or “American voters” in the past year, but I am perfectly willing to “extend apologies” to the saner group, if it’s any consolation to wj.
    –TP

  125. write-ins were around 1.7%. Compared to Jones margin of victory of around 0.7%. Note that, in the past, write-ins have been somewhere under 0.1%
    So a few decent Republican voters have helped make the difference.
    If Trumpism can lose the election in Alabama, it can lose it anywhere.

  126. write-ins were around 1.7%. Compared to Jones margin of victory of around 0.7%. Note that, in the past, write-ins have been somewhere under 0.1%
    So a few decent Republican voters have helped make the difference.
    If Trumpism can lose the election in Alabama, it can lose it anywhere.

  127. No, Alabama voters are not more sane. They are less white.
    Though wj’s post is right, probably. Looks like % write-ins was greater than margin of victory. Enough Rs couldn’t bear voting for Moore, wrote in Strange (etc) though they also couldn’t stand voting for a D.

  128. No, Alabama voters are not more sane. They are less white.
    Though wj’s post is right, probably. Looks like % write-ins was greater than margin of victory. Enough Rs couldn’t bear voting for Moore, wrote in Strange (etc) though they also couldn’t stand voting for a D.

  129. Republican performance (compared to historical voting patterns) was actually worst in Jefferson county, which is 42% African American.
    It held up better in both ‘whiter’ and ‘blacker’ counties.

  130. Republican performance (compared to historical voting patterns) was actually worst in Jefferson county, which is 42% African American.
    It held up better in both ‘whiter’ and ‘blacker’ counties.

  131. Judging from the turnout numbers I’m seeing, some who couldn’t stomach Moore went the write-in route, but even more just stayed home.

  132. Judging from the turnout numbers I’m seeing, some who couldn’t stomach Moore went the write-in route, but even more just stayed home.

  133. Judging from the turnout numbers I’m seeing, some who couldn’t stomach Moore went the write-in route, but even more just stayed home.
    Which worked. Thank y’all! I love the Doug Jones the best, obviously. Where can I find a spot to live down there? Seems like a purple state to me, and I’m used to that.

  134. Judging from the turnout numbers I’m seeing, some who couldn’t stomach Moore went the write-in route, but even more just stayed home.
    Which worked. Thank y’all! I love the Doug Jones the best, obviously. Where can I find a spot to live down there? Seems like a purple state to me, and I’m used to that.

  143. I guess there will be now a GOP version of the ‘blame Nader and Stein’ meme. If I were the write-in candidate, I’d be careful in the near future for there might be some radicals considering doing him (or her?) harm.
    [This is not meant as snark. I think there is a real risk.]

  144. I guess there will be now a GOP version of the ‘blame Nader and Stein’ meme. If I were the write-in candidate, I’d be careful in the near future for there might be some radicals considering doing him (or her?) harm.
    [This is not meant as snark. I think there is a real risk.]

  145. It seems The Turtle has announced that he is not going to swear in the Alabama winner (at the time not yet known) before the end of the year/session, so expect the abominable tax bill (reconciled version, now with no handwritten changes) to be put to a vote before New Year’s Eve.
    (Therefore, I hope that Franken will not leave before that date either since his replacement would likely face the same holding action).

  146. It seems The Turtle has announced that he is not going to swear in the Alabama winner (at the time not yet known) before the end of the year/session, so expect the abominable tax bill (reconciled version, now with no handwritten changes) to be put to a vote before New Year’s Eve.
    (Therefore, I hope that Franken will not leave before that date either since his replacement would likely face the same holding action).

  147. According to wikipedia turnout was 40.47%.
    I’d call that abysmal but the projected turnout before Moore got the unwanted attention for his past alleged conduct was 18%.

  148. According to wikipedia turnout was 40.47%.
    I’d call that abysmal but the projected turnout before Moore got the unwanted attention for his past alleged conduct was 18%.

  151. “Alabama voters” tonight were evidently less insane than “American voters” “American Electoral College Members” were in 2016.

  152. “Alabama voters” tonight were evidently less insane than “American voters” “American Electoral College Members” were in 2016.

  155. I guess there will be now a GOP version of the ‘blame Nader and Stein’ meme.
    commenters on the Breitbart thread on the election (closing in on 50,000 comments!) are pretty sure that it’s all the fault of McConnell and Bannon.

  156. I guess there will be now a GOP version of the ‘blame Nader and Stein’ meme.
    commenters on the Breitbart thread on the election (closing in on 50,000 comments!) are pretty sure that it’s all the fault of McConnell and Bannon.

  157. They can’t swear in Jones until the Alabama Secretary of State certifies the election, which should be sometime next week.
    That said, McConnell could halt all major legislative action until- bwhahahahahahhaah, ahh, almost made it to the end there.

  158. They can’t swear in Jones until the Alabama Secretary of State certifies the election, which should be sometime next week.
    That said, McConnell could halt all major legislative action until- bwhahahahahahhaah, ahh, almost made it to the end there.

  159. It’s often the case that, as Yeats said, the world’s more full of weeping than you can understand. But, on the other hand, sometimes a wonderful thing happens. Black voters came out despite obstacles and intimidation, and the man who said America was last great under slavery has been rejected. The Trump/Bannon/alt-right nexus can and still will achieve much that is malign, but the resistance is strengthened and the good people who gave money, organised and got out the vote will be energised for 2018 and hopefully beyond. As I’m sure they say in the Evangelical churches: Hallelujah!

  160. It’s often the case that, as Yeats said, the world’s more full of weeping than you can understand. But, on the other hand, sometimes a wonderful thing happens. Black voters came out despite obstacles and intimidation, and the man who said America was last great under slavery has been rejected. The Trump/Bannon/alt-right nexus can and still will achieve much that is malign, but the resistance is strengthened and the good people who gave money, organised and got out the vote will be energised for 2018 and hopefully beyond. As I’m sure they say in the Evangelical churches: Hallelujah!

  165. As further proof that the arc of history bends toward justice, Sister Rosetta Tharpe is now in the Rock and Roll Hall Of Fame.
    So, a good day all around. 🙂

  166. As further proof that the arc of history bends toward justice, Sister Rosetta Tharpe is now in the Rock and Roll Hall Of Fame.
    So, a good day all around. 🙂

  169. They can’t swear in Jones until the Alabama Secretary of State certifies the election, which should be sometime next week.
    Per Alabama statute on the procedures, certification can be done no earlier than Dec 26 and no later than Jan 3.

  170. They can’t swear in Jones until the Alabama Secretary of State certifies the election, which should be sometime next week.
    Per Alabama statute on the procedures, certification can be done no earlier than Dec 26 and no later than Jan 3.

  171. This, which I picked up at Balloon Juice and via the Twitter account of someone named Vaughn Hillyard, is the most eloquent, beautiful oration of certainly the past many dreadful months of republican rancidity and rivals Martin Luther King for its knife-like directness into the black heart of hate:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BY_2doFSqI
    Meanwhile, Jerry Falwell Junior is left quoting Lynyrd Skynyrd as Scripture, for cripes’ sake:
    Jerry Falwell
    ✔
    @JerryFalwellJr
    AL voters are too smart to let the media & Estab Repubs & Dems tell them how to vote. I hope the spirit of Lynyrd Skynyrd is alive/well in AL. “A southern man don’t need them around anyhow & Watergate does not bother me, does your conscience bother you, tell me true?@MooreSenate
    5:55 PM – Dec 11, 2017

  172. This, which I picked up at Balloon Juice and via the Twitter account of someone named Vaughn Hillyard, is the most eloquent, beautiful oration of certainly the past many dreadful months of republican rancidity and rivals Martin Luther King for its knife-like directness into the black heart of hate:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BY_2doFSqI
    Meanwhile, Jerry Falwell Junior is left quoting Lynyrd Skynyrd as Scripture, for cripes’ sake:
    Jerry Falwell
    ✔
    @JerryFalwellJr
    AL voters are too smart to let the media & Estab Repubs & Dems tell them how to vote. I hope the spirit of Lynyrd Skynyrd is alive/well in AL. “A southern man don’t need them around anyhow & Watergate does not bother me, does your conscience bother you, tell me true?@MooreSenate
    5:55 PM – Dec 11, 2017

  173. They can’t swear in Jones until the Alabama Secretary of State certifies the election, which should be sometime next week.
    Even so, the tax bill may be at increased risk. Because it just takes one or two Republican Senators deciding that they aren’t that scared of Trump any more, and therefore will do what’s right. And Trump is looking more and more like a paper tiger.

  174. They can’t swear in Jones until the Alabama Secretary of State certifies the election, which should be sometime next week.
    Even so, the tax bill may be at increased risk. Because it just takes one or two Republican Senators deciding that they aren’t that scared of Trump any more, and therefore will do what’s right. And Trump is looking more and more like a paper tiger.

  175. Even so, the tax bill may be at increased risk.
    Republican leaders in Congress announced this morning that the conference committee has reached an “agreement in principle” on a tax bill. Some of the statements already out make it sound (to me, at least) as if there is some question as to whether the result meets the Senate reconciliation rules.

  176. Even so, the tax bill may be at increased risk.
    Republican leaders in Congress announced this morning that the conference committee has reached an “agreement in principle” on a tax bill. Some of the statements already out make it sound (to me, at least) as if there is some question as to whether the result meets the Senate reconciliation rules.

  179. Some of the statements already out make it sound (to me, at least) as if there is some question as to whether the result meets the Senate reconciliation rules.
    I had that same thought when I heard some of the things that the House conferees were insisting on.
    But what can you expect. Getting a bill written that meets the rules is an aspect of governing. And a bunch of these folks aren’t really interested in that.

  180. Some of the statements already out make it sound (to me, at least) as if there is some question as to whether the result meets the Senate reconciliation rules.
    I had that same thought when I heard some of the things that the House conferees were insisting on.
    But what can you expect. Getting a bill written that meets the rules is an aspect of governing. And a bunch of these folks aren’t really interested in that.

  181. Meanwhile, Jerry Falwell Junior is left quoting Lynyrd Skynyrd as Scripture
    i was hoping for some “Oooh That Smell”

  182. Meanwhile, Jerry Falwell Junior is left quoting Lynyrd Skynyrd as Scripture
    i was hoping for some “Oooh That Smell”

  187. Yayyy Jones, and Democrats.
    65% of white non-college educated women voted for Moore, and 52% of white college-educated women voted for Moore.
    98% of blacks voted for Jones, and 100% of black women.
    Keep this in mind, cause they are really pushing Gillibrand over Harris, even after the abject failure of white east coast women in 2016. They won’t lead, they won’t outreach.
    No more New Yorkers please. You’ve done enough.

  188. Yayyy Jones, and Democrats.
    65% of white non-college educated women voted for Moore, and 52% of white college-educated women voted for Moore.
    98% of blacks voted for Jones, and 100% of black women.
    Keep this in mind, cause they are really pushing Gillibrand over Harris, even after the abject failure of white east coast women in 2016. They won’t lead, they won’t outreach.
    No more New Yorkers please. You’ve done enough.

  191. Somewhere, above the clouds, four little girls whose souls left their bodies 54 years ago are smiling. Maybe Denise McNair, Addie Mae Collins, Carole Robertson and Cynthia Wesley looked down at what another monster had done to other 14-year-olds and said: “Don’t worry, we got y’all.
    Goddamit, russell, this actually brought tears to my eyes.

  192. Somewhere, above the clouds, four little girls whose souls left their bodies 54 years ago are smiling. Maybe Denise McNair, Addie Mae Collins, Carole Robertson and Cynthia Wesley looked down at what another monster had done to other 14-year-olds and said: “Don’t worry, we got y’all.
    Goddamit, russell, this actually brought tears to my eyes.

  195. Keep this in mind, cause they are really pushing Gillibrand over Harris
    who is ‘they’, and how are they pushing her?
    are they going to skip the 2020 primary?

  196. Keep this in mind, cause they are really pushing Gillibrand over Harris
    who is ‘they’, and how are they pushing her?
    are they going to skip the 2020 primary?

  197. In other news, in Minnesota the white woman Smith got appointed to replace Franken over the black man, Ellison. Both Smith and Ellison are committed to running in the 2018 primary. Who knows if they will be able to find anonymous accusers against Ellison, but Smith is likely to win the primary, and lose the general to the Republican based on getting a minority of white women voters. She will blame sexism.
    At this point I consider Minnesota a lost Senate seat.
    The same with Gillibrand in 2020, a loser, except in that case it will be the electoral college in combination with coastal disdain for flyover women.
    Difference is that Harris might increase black turnout enough.

  198. In other news, in Minnesota the white woman Smith got appointed to replace Franken over the black man, Ellison. Both Smith and Ellison are committed to running in the 2018 primary. Who knows if they will be able to find anonymous accusers against Ellison, but Smith is likely to win the primary, and lose the general to the Republican based on getting a minority of white women voters. She will blame sexism.
    At this point I consider Minnesota a lost Senate seat.
    The same with Gillibrand in 2020, a loser, except in that case it will be the electoral college in combination with coastal disdain for flyover women.
    Difference is that Harris might increase black turnout enough.

  201. I liked the Brandenburg gate, JanieM, but it left me dry-eyed. (Maybe it wouldn’t have, at another time).
    The four little girls though….
    My sister came back to Hong Kong from college in the states in 1965, and among the records she brought back (mainly Dylan) was Joan Baez singing Birmingham Sunday. It made a tremendous impression on me, and I’ve never forgotten it.

  202. I liked the Brandenburg gate, JanieM, but it left me dry-eyed. (Maybe it wouldn’t have, at another time).
    The four little girls though….
    My sister came back to Hong Kong from college in the states in 1965, and among the records she brought back (mainly Dylan) was Joan Baez singing Birmingham Sunday. It made a tremendous impression on me, and I’ve never forgotten it.

  203. White Women Keep Fucking Us Over …Jezebel, about Alabama and Moore.
    They don’t get it. Jezebel is the problem.
    Checked some numbers, couldn’t get the breakdown, but in Alabama the absolute numbers of blacks and the black percentage of the population of Alabama has been steadily increasing. Alabama is also majority women, around 52%. My guess is that the black women drive those numbers.
    Capable black women, and men like Ellison, leave, get educated and comeback to Alabama, helping their mothers and sisters, organizing, recruiting, generating turnout.
    Capable white women of Alabama leave, get educated and stay in NYC or SF, spitting on their mothers and sisters, never trying to reach or help them. And think they should get extra credit for leaving (3 million more votes!!!). And wonder why the abandoned white women in the middle of the country are ungrateful.
    The Democratic Party has a huuuuge white women problem. And it ain’t the ones who voted for Trump or Moore.

  204. White Women Keep Fucking Us Over …Jezebel, about Alabama and Moore.
    They don’t get it. Jezebel is the problem.
    Checked some numbers, couldn’t get the breakdown, but in Alabama the absolute numbers of blacks and the black percentage of the population of Alabama has been steadily increasing. Alabama is also majority women, around 52%. My guess is that the black women drive those numbers.
    Capable black women, and men like Ellison, leave, get educated and comeback to Alabama, helping their mothers and sisters, organizing, recruiting, generating turnout.
    Capable white women of Alabama leave, get educated and stay in NYC or SF, spitting on their mothers and sisters, never trying to reach or help them. And think they should get extra credit for leaving (3 million more votes!!!). And wonder why the abandoned white women in the middle of the country are ungrateful.
    The Democratic Party has a huuuuge white women problem. And it ain’t the ones who voted for Trump or Moore.

  205. I can imagine those white women emigres in California telling their black sisters who stayed in Alabama: “But it’s just so hard! Those people are horrible.”
    I would also guess that since white women progressives would be a minority in Alabama politics they don’t want to come back and have a black boss. In California and NYC they can be a boss.

  206. I can imagine those white women emigres in California telling their black sisters who stayed in Alabama: “But it’s just so hard! Those people are horrible.”
    I would also guess that since white women progressives would be a minority in Alabama politics they don’t want to come back and have a black boss. In California and NYC they can be a boss.

  207. Both Smith and Ellison are committed to running in the 2018 primary.
    The Star Tribune reported this morning that Ellison now says he will not run for the Senate seat.

  208. Both Smith and Ellison are committed to running in the 2018 primary.
    The Star Tribune reported this morning that Ellison now says he will not run for the Senate seat.

  209. Capable white women of Alabama leave, get educated and stay in NYC or SF, spitting on their mothers and sisters, never trying to reach or help them. And think they should get extra credit for leaving
    This may be incomprehensible to you. But most people, most of the time, make decisions like these based on their personal economics. NOT based on ideology.

  210. Capable white women of Alabama leave, get educated and stay in NYC or SF, spitting on their mothers and sisters, never trying to reach or help them. And think they should get extra credit for leaving
    This may be incomprehensible to you. But most people, most of the time, make decisions like these based on their personal economics. NOT based on ideology.

  211. Ellison now says he will not run for the Senate seat.
    A smart good man. He’d lose, be a target, and the primary fight would probably depress black turnout in the general, so Ellison would get blamed for Smith’s loss.
    I ain’t asking the world. 57% of white women voted for Moore, 52% college educated. I believe, say based on gay marriage, the people can change, be convinced, gain some empathy.
    Not all, maybe 10% of those white women, so it is 47% voting for Moore. That would be enough. Okay, maybe not, but it would help.
    But you are not going to do it by lecturing them from Manhattan. You have to show up and hang around.
    Or you can wait for the “demographics,” black and latino women in the bad states to save you while you escape the hard work and cash in on the vibrant exciting homogenous coasts and give lipservice to anti-racism while using minorities to boost your careers and pocketbooks. Like Clinton.
    Believe they know what’s going on.

  212. Ellison now says he will not run for the Senate seat.
    A smart good man. He’d lose, be a target, and the primary fight would probably depress black turnout in the general, so Ellison would get blamed for Smith’s loss.
    I ain’t asking the world. 57% of white women voted for Moore, 52% college educated. I believe, say based on gay marriage, the people can change, be convinced, gain some empathy.
    Not all, maybe 10% of those white women, so it is 47% voting for Moore. That would be enough. Okay, maybe not, but it would help.
    But you are not going to do it by lecturing them from Manhattan. You have to show up and hang around.
    Or you can wait for the “demographics,” black and latino women in the bad states to save you while you escape the hard work and cash in on the vibrant exciting homogenous coasts and give lipservice to anti-racism while using minorities to boost your careers and pocketbooks. Like Clinton.
    Believe they know what’s going on.

  213. The same with Gillibrand in 2020, a loser, except in that case it will be the electoral college in combination with coastal disdain for flyover women.
    It is worth pointing out that no Democratic candidate from the NE urban corridor has won the Presidency since Kennedy. And he managed it during the days when the Solid South still largely was, with the Senate Majority Leader from Texas on the ticket.
    I disagree with you on the problem being “flyover women”, though. I think it’s broader than that, and the national Democratic Party still fails to realize just how much general animosity the rest of the country has towards the NE urban corridor. That translates into a lack of enthusiasm.
    Over the last 25 years “Democrats” have made very substantial progress in the West. I claim that there are fundamental differences between Western Dems and NE urban corridor Dems, though.

  214. The same with Gillibrand in 2020, a loser, except in that case it will be the electoral college in combination with coastal disdain for flyover women.
    It is worth pointing out that no Democratic candidate from the NE urban corridor has won the Presidency since Kennedy. And he managed it during the days when the Solid South still largely was, with the Senate Majority Leader from Texas on the ticket.
    I disagree with you on the problem being “flyover women”, though. I think it’s broader than that, and the national Democratic Party still fails to realize just how much general animosity the rest of the country has towards the NE urban corridor. That translates into a lack of enthusiasm.
    Over the last 25 years “Democrats” have made very substantial progress in the West. I claim that there are fundamental differences between Western Dems and NE urban corridor Dems, though.

  215. coastal disdain for flyover women
    just how much general animosity the rest of the country has towards the NE urban corridor
    It seems to me that disdain flows in all sorts of directions.
    Maybe it’s time to give the whole “coasts vs flyover” thing a rest.
    But you are not going to do it by lecturing them from Manhattan.
    This, I agree with.
    When Dean was chair of the DNC he pursued an explicit 50 state strategy. That was a good idea. The (D)’s have gotten lazy since then. It’s time for them get off their behinds and get to work.

  216. coastal disdain for flyover women
    just how much general animosity the rest of the country has towards the NE urban corridor
    It seems to me that disdain flows in all sorts of directions.
    Maybe it’s time to give the whole “coasts vs flyover” thing a rest.
    But you are not going to do it by lecturing them from Manhattan.
    This, I agree with.
    When Dean was chair of the DNC he pursued an explicit 50 state strategy. That was a good idea. The (D)’s have gotten lazy since then. It’s time for them get off their behinds and get to work.

  217. It seems to me that disdain flows in all sorts of directions.
    It does. I cheerfully admit to a bias that says “The Easterners started it,” but that’s probably based on my personal experience. When I lived in the NE urban corridor 30 years ago, the disdain towards the rest of the country independent of politics was palpable. I tend to describe the Western attitude as less disdain and more resentment.
    When Dean was chair of the DNC he pursued an explicit 50 state strategy. That was a good idea. The (D)’s have gotten lazy since then. It’s time for them get off their behinds and get to work.
    (1) I recommend Witwer and Schrager’s The Blueprint: How the Democrats Won Colorado. (Full disclosure: I met many of the principals when I was working for the state legislature. They were cheerfully ignoring Dean as being far too Eastern-centered to be helpful.) In 2016, in the West, Dems flipped four legislative chambers, held their US Senate seats, and the governorships. As a registered Dem in a Western state, I’m really tempted to say, “Don’t talk to me about lazy.”
    (2) One of the facts that I think is critical that is missed by the national Democratic Party, dominated by folks from east of the Mississippi, is that there are no Western states where blacks are the largest minority group (there are several where they’re not the second-largest minority group). So long as the NE/Midwest/South are refighting the Civil War and Reconstruction, this is a problem. Consider the attitude of Chicago’s black politicians towards the rapidly growing Hispanic minority there.
    (3) Open bet for an adult beverage of choice: when Nancy Pelosi retires/dies, the NE Dems will spare no effort to make sure the new Speaker/Minority Leader is from the NE.

  218. It seems to me that disdain flows in all sorts of directions.
    It does. I cheerfully admit to a bias that says “The Easterners started it,” but that’s probably based on my personal experience. When I lived in the NE urban corridor 30 years ago, the disdain towards the rest of the country independent of politics was palpable. I tend to describe the Western attitude as less disdain and more resentment.
    When Dean was chair of the DNC he pursued an explicit 50 state strategy. That was a good idea. The (D)’s have gotten lazy since then. It’s time for them get off their behinds and get to work.
    (1) I recommend Witwer and Schrager’s The Blueprint: How the Democrats Won Colorado. (Full disclosure: I met many of the principals when I was working for the state legislature. They were cheerfully ignoring Dean as being far too Eastern-centered to be helpful.) In 2016, in the West, Dems flipped four legislative chambers, held their US Senate seats, and the governorships. As a registered Dem in a Western state, I’m really tempted to say, “Don’t talk to me about lazy.”
    (2) One of the facts that I think is critical that is missed by the national Democratic Party, dominated by folks from east of the Mississippi, is that there are no Western states where blacks are the largest minority group (there are several where they’re not the second-largest minority group). So long as the NE/Midwest/South are refighting the Civil War and Reconstruction, this is a problem. Consider the attitude of Chicago’s black politicians towards the rapidly growing Hispanic minority there.
    (3) Open bet for an adult beverage of choice: when Nancy Pelosi retires/dies, the NE Dems will spare no effort to make sure the new Speaker/Minority Leader is from the NE.

  221. Maybe it’s time to give the whole “coasts vs flyover” thing a rest.
    No. Consider it a metaphor or synecdoche or something, but I think it is critical and fractal.
    Over at LGM, they went over the Alabama gerrymanded districts, where with roughly 40% of voters Democrats only got 1 Congressperson. They then analyzed a bit and decided that with a mandated minority and urban concentration they could maybe bump it up to two, still 1/3 less than is representative.
    The Democratic Party absolutely must de-urbanize and disperse.
    I don’t want to hear anything about electoral college abolition or proportional representation etc because in our geographically biased system there is no conceivable path to a Democratic super-majority under current urban and coastal concentration. There is no path to 30 states or 60 Senators anymore and Republicans will retain their structural advantage and veto points. And Repubs understand the electoral math much better than Democrats.
    Moving to Texas might lock the Presidency, but doesn’t get the Senate or a progressive House, and even in Texas controlling the 5-6 urban areas wouldn’t get enough to control redistricting.
    We need rural and RedState Democrats, probably at least a third of the Party. We are not going to flip rural Repubs or marginals purple blue without Dems in Tyler and Amarillo.

  222. Maybe it’s time to give the whole “coasts vs flyover” thing a rest.
    No. Consider it a metaphor or synecdoche or something, but I think it is critical and fractal.
    Over at LGM, they went over the Alabama gerrymanded districts, where with roughly 40% of voters Democrats only got 1 Congressperson. They then analyzed a bit and decided that with a mandated minority and urban concentration they could maybe bump it up to two, still 1/3 less than is representative.
    The Democratic Party absolutely must de-urbanize and disperse.
    I don’t want to hear anything about electoral college abolition or proportional representation etc because in our geographically biased system there is no conceivable path to a Democratic super-majority under current urban and coastal concentration. There is no path to 30 states or 60 Senators anymore and Republicans will retain their structural advantage and veto points. And Repubs understand the electoral math much better than Democrats.
    Moving to Texas might lock the Presidency, but doesn’t get the Senate or a progressive House, and even in Texas controlling the 5-6 urban areas wouldn’t get enough to control redistricting.
    We need rural and RedState Democrats, probably at least a third of the Party. We are not going to flip rural Repubs or marginals purple blue without Dems in Tyler and Amarillo.

  223. Michael Cain: When I lived in the NE urban corridor 30 years ago, the disdain towards the rest of the country independent of politics was palpable.
    Michael,
    I ask sincerely and in all seriousness: can you give me an example or two of the “disdain towards the rest of the country” that people like me displayed? (I was living near Boston 30 years ago, and still do.)
    –TP

  224. Michael Cain: When I lived in the NE urban corridor 30 years ago, the disdain towards the rest of the country independent of politics was palpable.
    Michael,
    I ask sincerely and in all seriousness: can you give me an example or two of the “disdain towards the rest of the country” that people like me displayed? (I was living near Boston 30 years ago, and still do.)
    –TP

  225. Don’t talk to me about lazy
    you are exactly who I am *not* talking about.
    When I say “lazy” I mean the (D) party at the national level, who I think are mostly talking to themselves these days.
    there are no Western states where blacks are the largest minority group
    you seem to assume that (D)’s are somehow unusually deferential to blacks. to the degree that that is so, IMO that’s only in contrast to (R)’s, who are often quite hostile to them.
    We are not going to flip rural Repubs or marginals purple blue without Dems in Tyler and Amarillo.
    I suspect that there are already (D)’s in those places.

  226. Don’t talk to me about lazy
    you are exactly who I am *not* talking about.
    When I say “lazy” I mean the (D) party at the national level, who I think are mostly talking to themselves these days.
    there are no Western states where blacks are the largest minority group
    you seem to assume that (D)’s are somehow unusually deferential to blacks. to the degree that that is so, IMO that’s only in contrast to (R)’s, who are often quite hostile to them.
    We are not going to flip rural Repubs or marginals purple blue without Dems in Tyler and Amarillo.
    I suspect that there are already (D)’s in those places.

  227. When I say “lazy” I mean the (D) party at the national level, who I think are mostly talking to themselves these days.
    Maybe a link or something?
    Let’s not just make shit up. Democrats just won an election in Alabama. It was because people voted. It was because everyone on our side voted. It was because African-Americans, African-American women, came out and voted.
    Let’s practice 1) solidarity; 2) having each others’ backs; 3) not trashtalking Democrats; 4) praising ourselves to high heavens when we’ve done anything good …
    Get the picture? Don’t mean to be my usual nasty self, but a lot of folks here didn’t really support the Best President of My Lifetime: Barack Obama. Sure you voted for him, but “criticizing from the left” was your game. Let’s leave that alone until the Nazis go away.
    Thanks.

  228. When I say “lazy” I mean the (D) party at the national level, who I think are mostly talking to themselves these days.
    Maybe a link or something?
    Let’s not just make shit up. Democrats just won an election in Alabama. It was because people voted. It was because everyone on our side voted. It was because African-Americans, African-American women, came out and voted.
    Let’s practice 1) solidarity; 2) having each others’ backs; 3) not trashtalking Democrats; 4) praising ourselves to high heavens when we’ve done anything good …
    Get the picture? Don’t mean to be my usual nasty self, but a lot of folks here didn’t really support the Best President of My Lifetime: Barack Obama. Sure you voted for him, but “criticizing from the left” was your game. Let’s leave that alone until the Nazis go away.
    Thanks.

  229. Capable white women of Alabama leave, get educated and stay in NYC or SF, spitting on their mothers and sisters
    Ah, McManus, equal-opportunity trash-talker, contemptuous of the whole world that isn’t him.
    Will we miss him when he’s gone?
    Try us and see.
    Sheesh.

  230. Capable white women of Alabama leave, get educated and stay in NYC or SF, spitting on their mothers and sisters
    Ah, McManus, equal-opportunity trash-talker, contemptuous of the whole world that isn’t him.
    Will we miss him when he’s gone?
    Try us and see.
    Sheesh.

  233. Read the Jezebel article, it’s vicious and comtemptible. It is obvious that some feminists are in no way for all women, but are classist among other things.
    And the comparison with blacks and black women in delivering their demographic, and the way they treat their marginals and difficult cases, say prisoners and drug victims, is dispositive.
    One movement after delivers 95%+; the other after fifty years can’t even deliver 50% of their demographic or protect abortion in Red States. Think the blacks in Alabama are monolithic? No evangelicals, no UMC, nor right of economic center? Yet they work with their neighbors and delver.
    And it’s real and serious, Harris vs Gillibrand. People will die.
    Lemieux, son of a gun, backs Gillibrand. He is a white New Yorker.
    Whatever, they couldn’t deliver 50% against a monster like Moore. But not their fault, not her fault, at least they got rid of Franken. They’re killing the party.

  234. Read the Jezebel article, it’s vicious and comtemptible. It is obvious that some feminists are in no way for all women, but are classist among other things.
    And the comparison with blacks and black women in delivering their demographic, and the way they treat their marginals and difficult cases, say prisoners and drug victims, is dispositive.
    One movement after delivers 95%+; the other after fifty years can’t even deliver 50% of their demographic or protect abortion in Red States. Think the blacks in Alabama are monolithic? No evangelicals, no UMC, nor right of economic center? Yet they work with their neighbors and delver.
    And it’s real and serious, Harris vs Gillibrand. People will die.
    Lemieux, son of a gun, backs Gillibrand. He is a white New Yorker.
    Whatever, they couldn’t deliver 50% against a monster like Moore. But not their fault, not her fault, at least they got rid of Franken. They’re killing the party.

  235. Some scattered thoughts:
    What is it about the left that requires it to dissect every victory and figure out who was responsible? I suppose that when the right wins, they aren’t worried about other demographics, but it does get tiresome.
    I feel like Lemieux backs Gillibrand because he feels like 1) he needs to back someone who is actively fighting back against Trump and 2) he has to deal with lots of Bernie or Biden for pres. While the New Yorker dynamic might be there, I do think that Gillibrand is more out there. Maybe this is a warped perspective from being in Japan, and if Harris is doing more, I’d love to know about it.
    I also fear that given the revanchist racism that the US is having to deal with, Harris’s background would put limits on what she could do if she did win or even worse, prevent her from winning. We saw how Obama was in many ways imprisoned by his blackness, being unable to show anger, had to always argue for a compromise rather than go for the throat on occasion. I’d be afraid a similar dynamic would occur. Of course, I am partly surprised that Obama made it thru 2 terms w/o even a Squeaky Fromme like incident (though the Secret Service evidently had to deal with a lot more possibilities)
    I also wonder if those people who voted for Moore or voted for Trump will, in the future, claim that they didn’t. I realize Nixon is a long time ago, but I imagine that if you had run a poll of who did your vote for, you’d have a lot more people claiming they didn’t vote for Nixon but actually did. Of course, people still tout their voting for Reagan. I hate to let those folks get off, but I’m also thinking I don’t care who you voted for in the past, I’d just be happy you are ashamed to have done so and are going to stop doing it.

  236. Some scattered thoughts:
    What is it about the left that requires it to dissect every victory and figure out who was responsible? I suppose that when the right wins, they aren’t worried about other demographics, but it does get tiresome.
    I feel like Lemieux backs Gillibrand because he feels like 1) he needs to back someone who is actively fighting back against Trump and 2) he has to deal with lots of Bernie or Biden for pres. While the New Yorker dynamic might be there, I do think that Gillibrand is more out there. Maybe this is a warped perspective from being in Japan, and if Harris is doing more, I’d love to know about it.
    I also fear that given the revanchist racism that the US is having to deal with, Harris’s background would put limits on what she could do if she did win or even worse, prevent her from winning. We saw how Obama was in many ways imprisoned by his blackness, being unable to show anger, had to always argue for a compromise rather than go for the throat on occasion. I’d be afraid a similar dynamic would occur. Of course, I am partly surprised that Obama made it thru 2 terms w/o even a Squeaky Fromme like incident (though the Secret Service evidently had to deal with a lot more possibilities)
    I also wonder if those people who voted for Moore or voted for Trump will, in the future, claim that they didn’t. I realize Nixon is a long time ago, but I imagine that if you had run a poll of who did your vote for, you’d have a lot more people claiming they didn’t vote for Nixon but actually did. Of course, people still tout their voting for Reagan. I hate to let those folks get off, but I’m also thinking I don’t care who you voted for in the past, I’d just be happy you are ashamed to have done so and are going to stop doing it.

  237. I ask sincerely and in all seriousness: can you give me an example or two of the “disdain towards the rest of the country” that people like me displayed?
    oooh, let me! this is an easy one.
    next time someone starts talking/writing about the south, see how long it takes before they mention inbreeding or laziness, or put on an exaggerated caricature of a southern accent and say something comically stupid with it.
    hating on southerners is the one situation where northern and western liberals seem completely happy to forget everything they say about the evils of stereotyping and bigotry.

  238. I ask sincerely and in all seriousness: can you give me an example or two of the “disdain towards the rest of the country” that people like me displayed?
    oooh, let me! this is an easy one.
    next time someone starts talking/writing about the south, see how long it takes before they mention inbreeding or laziness, or put on an exaggerated caricature of a southern accent and say something comically stupid with it.
    hating on southerners is the one situation where northern and western liberals seem completely happy to forget everything they say about the evils of stereotyping and bigotry.

  239. Maybe a link or something?
    no link, but neither do I think I’m just making stuff up.
    in 2016, local (D) organizations in many places – including the industrial midwest – asked for help from the national (D)’s and did not get it.
    I’m not being critical of policies or individuals here, I’m making a comment about the strategic priorities of a national organization.
    (D)’s need to get back to a 50 state focus. In my opinion.
    I’m sure I appreciated Obama’s presidency just as much as you, FWIW. But I’m not going to “only say nice things” about (D)’s as a party. It’s actually not constructive to pretend that problems don’t exist when they do.
    hating on southerners is the one situation where northern and western liberals seem completely happy to forget everything they say about the evils of stereotyping and bigotry.
    true

  240. Maybe a link or something?
    no link, but neither do I think I’m just making stuff up.
    in 2016, local (D) organizations in many places – including the industrial midwest – asked for help from the national (D)’s and did not get it.
    I’m not being critical of policies or individuals here, I’m making a comment about the strategic priorities of a national organization.
    (D)’s need to get back to a 50 state focus. In my opinion.
    I’m sure I appreciated Obama’s presidency just as much as you, FWIW. But I’m not going to “only say nice things” about (D)’s as a party. It’s actually not constructive to pretend that problems don’t exist when they do.
    hating on southerners is the one situation where northern and western liberals seem completely happy to forget everything they say about the evils of stereotyping and bigotry.
    true

  241. Lemieux, son of a gun, backs Gillibrand. He is a white New Yorker.
    I don’t know where he grew up (he might even be, gasp, a Canadian), but it appears he is now at the UW in Seattle, up here in the 48th Soviet of Washington.

  242. Lemieux, son of a gun, backs Gillibrand. He is a white New Yorker.
    I don’t know where he grew up (he might even be, gasp, a Canadian), but it appears he is now at the UW in Seattle, up here in the 48th Soviet of Washington.

  243. appears he is now at the UW in Seattle
    8 previous years 2009-2017 (2016?) adjunct at the College of St Rose in Albany. They closed his dept or something, IIRC, not so long ago. Glad he has landed a paying gig, although “lecturer?”
    Saint Rose Cuts Faculty Maybe Dec 29 2016 according to this.
    I don’t make shit up.

  244. appears he is now at the UW in Seattle
    8 previous years 2009-2017 (2016?) adjunct at the College of St Rose in Albany. They closed his dept or something, IIRC, not so long ago. Glad he has landed a paying gig, although “lecturer?”
    Saint Rose Cuts Faculty Maybe Dec 29 2016 according to this.
    I don’t make shit up.

  245. He is a white New Yorker.
    If you get 50 Americans in a room, statistically speaking about 3 of them will be New Yorkers.
    Not coastal, not northeast corridor. Specifically, residents of the NYC metropolitan area.
    Talking about New Yorkers as if they are some strange alien species is weird. A lot of Americans live in the NYC metro area. If you include folks who are from there but no longer live there, it’s an even larger number of people.
    It’s a place. People live there. They have opinions. Maybe, get over it.

  246. He is a white New Yorker.
    If you get 50 Americans in a room, statistically speaking about 3 of them will be New Yorkers.
    Not coastal, not northeast corridor. Specifically, residents of the NYC metropolitan area.
    Talking about New Yorkers as if they are some strange alien species is weird. A lot of Americans live in the NYC metro area. If you include folks who are from there but no longer live there, it’s an even larger number of people.
    It’s a place. People live there. They have opinions. Maybe, get over it.

  247. I don’t care where people are from. Don’t be an a$$hole, and we’re good. The stupid people who bother me more than any, aside from people with lots of power (frex, Donald Trump) are the ones who live near me because I actually have to put up with them.

  248. I don’t care where people are from. Don’t be an a$$hole, and we’re good. The stupid people who bother me more than any, aside from people with lots of power (frex, Donald Trump) are the ones who live near me because I actually have to put up with them.

  249. I also wonder if those people who voted for Moore or voted for Trump will, in the future, claim that they didn’t. I realize Nixon is a long time ago, but I imagine that if you had run a poll of who did your vote for, you’d have a lot more people claiming they didn’t vote for Nixon but actually did.
    Well, I’m not proud of having voted for Nixon. Knowing what I know now, I wouldn’t have done so. But that’s 20/20 hindsight at work. Based on what I knew at the time**, I still think it was a reasonable choice to have made.
    ** I was a student at Berkeley at the time, surrounded by hordes of McGovern enthusiasts. Many of whom were, on a variety of subjects, complete nut cases from the view of a conservative Republican. And, as you all know happens with any candidate, the craziness of a candidate’s supporters will tend to rub off on him. Sometimes even if he shows no signs of embracing them, unless he obviously and explicitly rejects their support.

  250. I also wonder if those people who voted for Moore or voted for Trump will, in the future, claim that they didn’t. I realize Nixon is a long time ago, but I imagine that if you had run a poll of who did your vote for, you’d have a lot more people claiming they didn’t vote for Nixon but actually did.
    Well, I’m not proud of having voted for Nixon. Knowing what I know now, I wouldn’t have done so. But that’s 20/20 hindsight at work. Based on what I knew at the time**, I still think it was a reasonable choice to have made.
    ** I was a student at Berkeley at the time, surrounded by hordes of McGovern enthusiasts. Many of whom were, on a variety of subjects, complete nut cases from the view of a conservative Republican. And, as you all know happens with any candidate, the craziness of a candidate’s supporters will tend to rub off on him. Sometimes even if he shows no signs of embracing them, unless he obviously and explicitly rejects their support.

  251. hating on southerners is the one situation where northern and western liberals seem completely happy to forget everything they say about the evils of stereotyping and bigotry.
    True, I do see a lot of that.
    On the other hand, Wednesday I was seeing a lot of other people posting comments on various blogs of “Roll Tide!” At least one was even an Ohio State fan! So it’s a stereotype that at least some are able to get past, given a little motivation.

  252. hating on southerners is the one situation where northern and western liberals seem completely happy to forget everything they say about the evils of stereotyping and bigotry.
    True, I do see a lot of that.
    On the other hand, Wednesday I was seeing a lot of other people posting comments on various blogs of “Roll Tide!” At least one was even an Ohio State fan! So it’s a stereotype that at least some are able to get past, given a little motivation.

  255. I’m sure I appreciated Obama’s presidency just as much as you, FWIW. But I’m not going to “only say nice things” about (D)’s as a party. It’s actually not constructive to pretend that problems don’t exist when they do.
    I’ve read a million different reasons attempting to explain why the Clinton lost the 2016 election, including mistakes that the party made. There’s nothing wrong with evaluating the data to try to figure out what went wrong, but it’s incredibly difficult to account for a number of things that we haven’t really gotten a grasp of yet. Some of these things include voter suppression, tampering in the electoral process, media bias, Comey’s unfortunate remarks.
    One thing that is quite clear to me that was happening before the election were the sentiments shared here by several people that Hillary Clinton gave too many speeches to Wall Street audiences, that she used the word superpredator so was a racist, that she was a warmonger, that she was unwise in her email server management, and that, basically, she was a crook and a liar.
    I don’t think that all decisions made by the party are perfect either (mostly because I believe that humans and human institutions are generally imperfect), and it would be useful to make adjustments in light of whatever mistakes are discovered by looking at actual facts and data. However, no amount of money could have changed the dynamic that Eric Loomis has described as “politics as tattoo.”

  256. I’m sure I appreciated Obama’s presidency just as much as you, FWIW. But I’m not going to “only say nice things” about (D)’s as a party. It’s actually not constructive to pretend that problems don’t exist when they do.
    I’ve read a million different reasons attempting to explain why the Clinton lost the 2016 election, including mistakes that the party made. There’s nothing wrong with evaluating the data to try to figure out what went wrong, but it’s incredibly difficult to account for a number of things that we haven’t really gotten a grasp of yet. Some of these things include voter suppression, tampering in the electoral process, media bias, Comey’s unfortunate remarks.
    One thing that is quite clear to me that was happening before the election were the sentiments shared here by several people that Hillary Clinton gave too many speeches to Wall Street audiences, that she used the word superpredator so was a racist, that she was a warmonger, that she was unwise in her email server management, and that, basically, she was a crook and a liar.
    I don’t think that all decisions made by the party are perfect either (mostly because I believe that humans and human institutions are generally imperfect), and it would be useful to make adjustments in light of whatever mistakes are discovered by looking at actual facts and data. However, no amount of money could have changed the dynamic that Eric Loomis has described as “politics as tattoo.”

  257. ‘Wow… never seen a church like this before,” Stepp said.
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the-showman
    If this story becomes a movie, it would only be right for the actress saying that line to read it with an outsized Kentucky accent, despite that this type of crypto-religious, uniquely American mixture of pantsless jesus-speechifying while laying on of hands at the after-parties seems to have spread to all 50 states and the White House, voiced in all of the local palavers.
    “hating on southerners is the one situation where northern and western liberals seem completely happy to forget everything they say about the evils of stereotyping and bigotry.”
    I’ll cop to this. I thought proud political incorrectness was all the style these days.
    When I’m hearing or reading, say Lee Atwater, his own self born in South Carolina, telling us there are so many clever ways of re-introducing words that rhyme with “chigger” back into our political discourse, I’m most likely to spend the rest of my daily routine talking to myself with his lines voiced in my best Strother Martin or Denver Pyle caricatures.
    That can morph pretty quickly into my Lindsay Graham/Blanche Dubois mashup emitting the vapors over whatever Barack Obama was up to, at which
    point I get on the elevator in my building, in Eddie Murphy black face doing his white guy voice, and ask whichever of my white neighbors whom I might suspect of being closet rump supporters (none, I suspect) for their birth certificates, which must be presented embossed word-for-word in icing on a bundt cake, to keep with current events.
    Then I respond to those voices in my best Andy Taylor conciliatory Barn-you-got-to-realize-that-folks-everywheres-just-folks-no matter-their-appearance-or-the-way-they-talk-or-where-they-was-raised-and-they’s-all-treated-the-same-under-the-law patois, because I remember when the republican conservative wurlitzer went after Andy Griffith late in his life for being out of step with Nixon’s southern strategy.
    Neighbors passing by the door to my apartment must think one of two thoughts: “Either there is a crazy person (folks at OBWI can attest) living in our midst, or there are too many people living in that space. Will you listen to them go on?
    Most probably they think to themselves: “All of his impressions sound like Kirk Douglas doing Rich Little.”
    Other days, all they might hear for weeks on end is either Christopher Walken “It’s a thing … I do. Two mice … fell .. into a bucket of cream. One MOUSE .. demanded more COWbell” ….
    …or maybe John or George Beatle, going all skouse Liverpudlian and whinging about their first wife, Paul, and his overpowering bass guitar and makin them wear suits in the early days.
    Or maybe any number of Scorcese/De Niro/Pesci low-level mafia/republican types passing rump-care in the dead … and “dead” is what I mean .. of night, in Joisey.
    I love New York City, where you can be served in a Chinatown restaurant by an Italian kid with a New Yoak tongue in his head and then cross over into Little Italy and buy a cannoli off the street from an Asian woman with that soft, shy, maybe Hong Kong English.
    Or maybe Cliven Bundy raging against the Feds, cept his voice always comes out with stupid ill-learning in Sam Elliot’s rich cowboy steak sauce twang, which I don’t think does Bundy and his gets the injustice they deserve.
    Or maybe any number of republican Texas Congressmen raging in Yosemite Sam’s mighty rootin-tootin presentation.
    Or maybe when I’m with my baseball buddy who grew up in Minnesota, for some reason I talk like any number of characters in the movie “Fargo”.
    I grew up back East mostly in Pittsburgh, and for awhile outside of New York City, the former of which I guarantee you has the oddest native accent/inflections this side of the clicking language of the San Bushmen, and when I return from frequent trips there, I can’t stop asking “Youns goin up taan?”
    I’ve lived in the Denver area for going on 40 years and I love the West. I miss the trees back East but when I’m back there, I miss the big sky, and my horse.
    i don’t own a horse. That’s how much I miss him.
    Thing is about Denver and the entire east slope of Colorado, EVERYONE, none of whom are natives, talks the same. Every accent is leveled, which I find dispiriting. It’s like Colorado has checkpoints at the border and all out-of-staters, including Mexican immigrants (after one generation) and including me, are ordered to stick out their tongues and have them ironed flat for maximum sameness.
    This Omarosa asshole, the ump favorite for making a federal career out of being as asshole, recently removed outside the fence surrounding the White House. Being a rump lovely, I’m sure she talk funny too.
    I would model her on the radical leftist caricature of Laureen Hobbes from the movie “Network”, raging about the syndication percentages and residuals she is owed from the Mao-tse-Tung Hour, or whatever. I can’t find the full clip anymore, but a bit of it starts at 1.09 in this clip:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cSGvqQHpjs
    In short:
    “I don’t care where people are from. Don’t be an a$$hole, and we’re good.”
    But when they are a##holes, the dialect they say it in is fair game
    Say it in every dialect.

  258. ‘Wow… never seen a church like this before,” Stepp said.
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the-showman
    If this story becomes a movie, it would only be right for the actress saying that line to read it with an outsized Kentucky accent, despite that this type of crypto-religious, uniquely American mixture of pantsless jesus-speechifying while laying on of hands at the after-parties seems to have spread to all 50 states and the White House, voiced in all of the local palavers.
    “hating on southerners is the one situation where northern and western liberals seem completely happy to forget everything they say about the evils of stereotyping and bigotry.”
    I’ll cop to this. I thought proud political incorrectness was all the style these days.
    When I’m hearing or reading, say Lee Atwater, his own self born in South Carolina, telling us there are so many clever ways of re-introducing words that rhyme with “chigger” back into our political discourse, I’m most likely to spend the rest of my daily routine talking to myself with his lines voiced in my best Strother Martin or Denver Pyle caricatures.
    That can morph pretty quickly into my Lindsay Graham/Blanche Dubois mashup emitting the vapors over whatever Barack Obama was up to, at which
    point I get on the elevator in my building, in Eddie Murphy black face doing his white guy voice, and ask whichever of my white neighbors whom I might suspect of being closet rump supporters (none, I suspect) for their birth certificates, which must be presented embossed word-for-word in icing on a bundt cake, to keep with current events.
    Then I respond to those voices in my best Andy Taylor conciliatory Barn-you-got-to-realize-that-folks-everywheres-just-folks-no matter-their-appearance-or-the-way-they-talk-or-where-they-was-raised-and-they’s-all-treated-the-same-under-the-law patois, because I remember when the republican conservative wurlitzer went after Andy Griffith late in his life for being out of step with Nixon’s southern strategy.
    Neighbors passing by the door to my apartment must think one of two thoughts: “Either there is a crazy person (folks at OBWI can attest) living in our midst, or there are too many people living in that space. Will you listen to them go on?
    Most probably they think to themselves: “All of his impressions sound like Kirk Douglas doing Rich Little.”
    Other days, all they might hear for weeks on end is either Christopher Walken “It’s a thing … I do. Two mice … fell .. into a bucket of cream. One MOUSE .. demanded more COWbell” ….
    …or maybe John or George Beatle, going all skouse Liverpudlian and whinging about their first wife, Paul, and his overpowering bass guitar and makin them wear suits in the early days.
    Or maybe any number of Scorcese/De Niro/Pesci low-level mafia/republican types passing rump-care in the dead … and “dead” is what I mean .. of night, in Joisey.
    I love New York City, where you can be served in a Chinatown restaurant by an Italian kid with a New Yoak tongue in his head and then cross over into Little Italy and buy a cannoli off the street from an Asian woman with that soft, shy, maybe Hong Kong English.
    Or maybe Cliven Bundy raging against the Feds, cept his voice always comes out with stupid ill-learning in Sam Elliot’s rich cowboy steak sauce twang, which I don’t think does Bundy and his gets the injustice they deserve.
    Or maybe any number of republican Texas Congressmen raging in Yosemite Sam’s mighty rootin-tootin presentation.
    Or maybe when I’m with my baseball buddy who grew up in Minnesota, for some reason I talk like any number of characters in the movie “Fargo”.
    I grew up back East mostly in Pittsburgh, and for awhile outside of New York City, the former of which I guarantee you has the oddest native accent/inflections this side of the clicking language of the San Bushmen, and when I return from frequent trips there, I can’t stop asking “Youns goin up taan?”
    I’ve lived in the Denver area for going on 40 years and I love the West. I miss the trees back East but when I’m back there, I miss the big sky, and my horse.
    i don’t own a horse. That’s how much I miss him.
    Thing is about Denver and the entire east slope of Colorado, EVERYONE, none of whom are natives, talks the same. Every accent is leveled, which I find dispiriting. It’s like Colorado has checkpoints at the border and all out-of-staters, including Mexican immigrants (after one generation) and including me, are ordered to stick out their tongues and have them ironed flat for maximum sameness.
    This Omarosa asshole, the ump favorite for making a federal career out of being as asshole, recently removed outside the fence surrounding the White House. Being a rump lovely, I’m sure she talk funny too.
    I would model her on the radical leftist caricature of Laureen Hobbes from the movie “Network”, raging about the syndication percentages and residuals she is owed from the Mao-tse-Tung Hour, or whatever. I can’t find the full clip anymore, but a bit of it starts at 1.09 in this clip:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cSGvqQHpjs
    In short:
    “I don’t care where people are from. Don’t be an a$$hole, and we’re good.”
    But when they are a##holes, the dialect they say it in is fair game
    Say it in every dialect.

  261. Ngo and sapient:
    LGM, Unfogged, and a few other places have become actively dangerous places since the election, completely cultish in the bitter smug righteousness, dismissing with vociferous and gleeful contempt not only everything to their right, but vast and ever growing populations and writers to their left. OTOH, they give a lot of positive reinforcement to those who share their priors, solipsism, confirmation bias, and epistemic closure, rationalizing malice with logic and sarcasm, flattering those who will share their sense of nearly infinite enemies. Very bad for the heart and mind.
    Link from Farley: “Kentucky State Representative Dan Johnson shot himself in the face last night. Here’s the rest of the story.” In itself containing a joke
    Comment in thread:”Re: Johnson. Good riddance.”
    These people laugh and cheer about the death of those who disagree with them.
    I read them like I read about plague and terrorism. They’re truly sick.

  262. Ngo and sapient:
    LGM, Unfogged, and a few other places have become actively dangerous places since the election, completely cultish in the bitter smug righteousness, dismissing with vociferous and gleeful contempt not only everything to their right, but vast and ever growing populations and writers to their left. OTOH, they give a lot of positive reinforcement to those who share their priors, solipsism, confirmation bias, and epistemic closure, rationalizing malice with logic and sarcasm, flattering those who will share their sense of nearly infinite enemies. Very bad for the heart and mind.
    Link from Farley: “Kentucky State Representative Dan Johnson shot himself in the face last night. Here’s the rest of the story.” In itself containing a joke
    Comment in thread:”Re: Johnson. Good riddance.”
    These people laugh and cheer about the death of those who disagree with them.
    I read them like I read about plague and terrorism. They’re truly sick.

  263. bitter smug righteousness, dismissing with vociferous and gleeful contempt not only everything to their right, but vast and ever growing populations and writers to their left
    cool.

  264. bitter smug righteousness, dismissing with vociferous and gleeful contempt not only everything to their right, but vast and ever growing populations and writers to their left
    cool.

  265. Matt Tabibi, Greenwald and the entirety of the Intercept, all of Crooked Timber and all its commenters, all of Jacobin, anyone who criticizes Clinton or Obama..the enemies list of LGM is becoming almost universal. Apparently the only ones they have any time for are the most rabid centrists at VOX, Slate, some of WaPo, a little of the NYT.
    A place that only accepts the most corporate and anodyne of media and dismisses with rage all outsider voices is not healthy

  266. Matt Tabibi, Greenwald and the entirety of the Intercept, all of Crooked Timber and all its commenters, all of Jacobin, anyone who criticizes Clinton or Obama..the enemies list of LGM is becoming almost universal. Apparently the only ones they have any time for are the most rabid centrists at VOX, Slate, some of WaPo, a little of the NYT.
    A place that only accepts the most corporate and anodyne of media and dismisses with rage all outsider voices is not healthy

  267. I’ve read a million different reasons attempting to explain why the Clinton lost the 2016 election
    Same here. I’m not trying to unpack the 2016 election.
    IMO the national (D) party structure is insufficiently responsive to regional and local organizations. That’s my opinion. Full stop.
    Doesn’t mean they’re evil or stupid, just means that IMO they could do a better job of working with regional and local organizations.

  268. I’ve read a million different reasons attempting to explain why the Clinton lost the 2016 election
    Same here. I’m not trying to unpack the 2016 election.
    IMO the national (D) party structure is insufficiently responsive to regional and local organizations. That’s my opinion. Full stop.
    Doesn’t mean they’re evil or stupid, just means that IMO they could do a better job of working with regional and local organizations.

  271. When I read people making derogatory remarks about New Yorkers as against the rest of the country, I always remember Sarah Palin in a campaign speech somewhere (the Midwest? the South?) saying “It’s so great to be here in the Real America!”, and Jon Stewart showing it and saying “Wow, I wonder how Osama bin Laden feels, knowing he attacked the wrong America, the fake America!”
    I understand the point some are making, and that New Yorkers and the NE in general can be superior and dismissive, but still, it seems an incredibly divisive, bigoted attitude to buy into, like you’re doing the peddlers of hate and exclusion’s job for them.

  272. When I read people making derogatory remarks about New Yorkers as against the rest of the country, I always remember Sarah Palin in a campaign speech somewhere (the Midwest? the South?) saying “It’s so great to be here in the Real America!”, and Jon Stewart showing it and saying “Wow, I wonder how Osama bin Laden feels, knowing he attacked the wrong America, the fake America!”
    I understand the point some are making, and that New Yorkers and the NE in general can be superior and dismissive, but still, it seems an incredibly divisive, bigoted attitude to buy into, like you’re doing the peddlers of hate and exclusion’s job for them.

  273. I think that there’s a tendency, everywhere in the country, to believe that you and your neighbors are “real Americans”. And, by extension, that everybody who isn’t like you, who doesn’t think like you and those around you**, has misunderstood what the country is all about.
    The main difference with NYC (assumed, probably to the horror of residents in neighboring areas, to be identical to all of New England) is that, as a media center, it has a bigger megaphone. So the rest of the country has always known what people there think. Whereas the Sarah Palin’s of the world have only relatively recently managed to get their view visible.
    ** I confess that this may also be why *I* think I’m a conservative, while some from elsewhere in the country find that laughable. Compared to those around me, I definitely am. Compared to those in some other areas, I suspect, not so much.

  274. I think that there’s a tendency, everywhere in the country, to believe that you and your neighbors are “real Americans”. And, by extension, that everybody who isn’t like you, who doesn’t think like you and those around you**, has misunderstood what the country is all about.
    The main difference with NYC (assumed, probably to the horror of residents in neighboring areas, to be identical to all of New England) is that, as a media center, it has a bigger megaphone. So the rest of the country has always known what people there think. Whereas the Sarah Palin’s of the world have only relatively recently managed to get their view visible.
    ** I confess that this may also be why *I* think I’m a conservative, while some from elsewhere in the country find that laughable. Compared to those around me, I definitely am. Compared to those in some other areas, I suspect, not so much.

  275. GftNC: Let’s have at it
    From Unfogged, I can do this all day.
    “44: Dog-whistles for the “front row kids.”Arnade and his McDonald’s buddy JD Vance are both in for some very aggressive skull-gnawing.
    Posted by: JP Stormcrow”
    So what is going on here, especially conflating Chris Arnade with JD Vance.
    JD Vance
    is the author of Hillbilly Nation, from West Virgina, contemptuous of his roots and relatives, Republican, thought of running for office, married to a law clerk for John Roberts, worked in venture capital for Peter Thiel. Fucking bad news.
    Linked at Unfogged with Chris Arnade
    “Arnade worked on Wall Street for 20 years, with the last position being on foreign trading desk at Citigroup.[3] As the financial crisis of 2007–2008 unfolded, Arnade became more disillusioned with his industry, and began riding the subway to its last stop and then walking home, which often led him through the Bronx, where he talked to people and began taking their pictures.[1][7] He also did volunteer work in the Bronx, with the Hunts Point Alliance for Children, which led him into engagement with people who lived there.[8] In 2012 his mother died, and that same year Citi shut down the trading desk he was working on due to new regulations.[4] He accepted a buyout from Citi in 2012 and retired and began to spend all his time exploring the lives of poor and working-class people.[1][9] To deal with the reduced income, his family moved from Brooklyn to upstate New York.”
    You can google Arnade for his photographs and articles. Mostly he shows compassion for white losers in the Midwest, along with blacks in the Bronx. I guess that’s unforgivable. He also has a theme of the people destroyed by Obama and corporate Democrat policies, and too much sympathy for hurting Trump voters. But close to a saint.
    Just one example for the carnival of hate that is those blogs. Took me a 5 seconds to find.
    Who should I try to get along with, find common ground with, the good solid Democrats of LGM and Unfogged, or Arnade and the Left?

  276. GftNC: Let’s have at it
    From Unfogged, I can do this all day.
    “44: Dog-whistles for the “front row kids.”Arnade and his McDonald’s buddy JD Vance are both in for some very aggressive skull-gnawing.
    Posted by: JP Stormcrow”
    So what is going on here, especially conflating Chris Arnade with JD Vance.
    JD Vance
    is the author of Hillbilly Nation, from West Virgina, contemptuous of his roots and relatives, Republican, thought of running for office, married to a law clerk for John Roberts, worked in venture capital for Peter Thiel. Fucking bad news.
    Linked at Unfogged with Chris Arnade
    “Arnade worked on Wall Street for 20 years, with the last position being on foreign trading desk at Citigroup.[3] As the financial crisis of 2007–2008 unfolded, Arnade became more disillusioned with his industry, and began riding the subway to its last stop and then walking home, which often led him through the Bronx, where he talked to people and began taking their pictures.[1][7] He also did volunteer work in the Bronx, with the Hunts Point Alliance for Children, which led him into engagement with people who lived there.[8] In 2012 his mother died, and that same year Citi shut down the trading desk he was working on due to new regulations.[4] He accepted a buyout from Citi in 2012 and retired and began to spend all his time exploring the lives of poor and working-class people.[1][9] To deal with the reduced income, his family moved from Brooklyn to upstate New York.”
    You can google Arnade for his photographs and articles. Mostly he shows compassion for white losers in the Midwest, along with blacks in the Bronx. I guess that’s unforgivable. He also has a theme of the people destroyed by Obama and corporate Democrat policies, and too much sympathy for hurting Trump voters. But close to a saint.
    Just one example for the carnival of hate that is those blogs. Took me a 5 seconds to find.
    Who should I try to get along with, find common ground with, the good solid Democrats of LGM and Unfogged, or Arnade and the Left?

  277. Look up the biographies of nearly every actor/actress, writer, musician painter, sculptor, performance artist in America who has ended up in the coastal elite metropolises, and see how nearly every one of them was born and raised in so-called flyover country.
    Salt of the Earth.
    https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/03/160314-flyover-country-origin-language-midwest
    Interestingly, one of the first to use the term “flyover country” in print was one my favorite American writers, Thomas McGuane, who grew up in Michigan, ranches in Montana, but has seen plenty of both coasts.
    The infamous New Yorker cover depicting the New York myopia regarding the rest of the country was in fact a satire of the rest of the country’s opinion of the satire of New Yorker’s myopia about flyover country.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=famous+new+yorker+cover+of+flyover+country&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS774US774&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=6ENcyfEHfPk4dM%253A%252CaPLpuoLsiguIrM%252C_&usg=__k4gkAJ05jmk30qcGuzp6J18Cz6Y%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi69PjDnIrYAhVNz2MKHVmYDtMQ9QEIQzAG#imgrc=_
    The cartoonist, the late Saul Steinberg, was born in Romania and fled there in 1936 to New York City where he could be referred to by Americans, mostly those outside NYC, as “cosmopolitan”.
    Given the respective historical implications of the words “cosmopolitan” and “flyover country”, I hope to be mistaken for the former when the right-wing begins its Anschluss.

  278. Look up the biographies of nearly every actor/actress, writer, musician painter, sculptor, performance artist in America who has ended up in the coastal elite metropolises, and see how nearly every one of them was born and raised in so-called flyover country.
    Salt of the Earth.
    https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/03/160314-flyover-country-origin-language-midwest
    Interestingly, one of the first to use the term “flyover country” in print was one my favorite American writers, Thomas McGuane, who grew up in Michigan, ranches in Montana, but has seen plenty of both coasts.
    The infamous New Yorker cover depicting the New York myopia regarding the rest of the country was in fact a satire of the rest of the country’s opinion of the satire of New Yorker’s myopia about flyover country.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=famous+new+yorker+cover+of+flyover+country&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS774US774&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=6ENcyfEHfPk4dM%253A%252CaPLpuoLsiguIrM%252C_&usg=__k4gkAJ05jmk30qcGuzp6J18Cz6Y%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi69PjDnIrYAhVNz2MKHVmYDtMQ9QEIQzAG#imgrc=_
    The cartoonist, the late Saul Steinberg, was born in Romania and fled there in 1936 to New York City where he could be referred to by Americans, mostly those outside NYC, as “cosmopolitan”.
    Given the respective historical implications of the words “cosmopolitan” and “flyover country”, I hope to be mistaken for the former when the right-wing begins its Anschluss.

  279. Just a thought from the far side of the country.
    I have the distinct impression that, in the view of residents of Manhattan, the residents of the other 4 boroughs of NYC are every bit as exotic as the residents of the rest of the country. Can someone closer confirm or refute?

  280. Just a thought from the far side of the country.
    I have the distinct impression that, in the view of residents of Manhattan, the residents of the other 4 boroughs of NYC are every bit as exotic as the residents of the rest of the country. Can someone closer confirm or refute?

  281. “recently managed to get their view visible.”
    of Russia?
    Couldn’t resist
    Bob, who is doing the conflating between Vance and Arnade?

  282. “recently managed to get their view visible.”
    of Russia?
    Couldn’t resist
    Bob, who is doing the conflating between Vance and Arnade?

  285. New Yorkers and the NE in general can be superior and dismissive
    Everybody thinks they have the special sauce. It’s not a NY or NE thing.
    Can someone closer confirm or refute?
    The phrase you’re looking for is “bridge and tunnel”. As in “bridge and tunnel people”.
    Like I said, everybody thinks they have the special sauce. Nobody has the special sauce.

  286. New Yorkers and the NE in general can be superior and dismissive
    Everybody thinks they have the special sauce. It’s not a NY or NE thing.
    Can someone closer confirm or refute?
    The phrase you’re looking for is “bridge and tunnel”. As in “bridge and tunnel people”.
    Like I said, everybody thinks they have the special sauce. Nobody has the special sauce.

  287. I confess that this may also be why *I* think I’m a conservative, while some from elsewhere in the country find that laughable.
    Yep. As I’ve been known to say, speaking just about Colorado, in Boulder I’m somewhat right of center; in my Denver suburb, I’m somewhat left of center; and out on the eastern plains near the Kansas border, I’m a flaming liberal.

  288. I confess that this may also be why *I* think I’m a conservative, while some from elsewhere in the country find that laughable.
    Yep. As I’ve been known to say, speaking just about Colorado, in Boulder I’m somewhat right of center; in my Denver suburb, I’m somewhat left of center; and out on the eastern plains near the Kansas border, I’m a flaming liberal.

  289. New York has been captured by the great America commercial finance capitalism leveling influences of the outer boroughs and the suburbs of flyover America:
    https://ny.curbed.com/2017/8/24/16190884/vanishing-new-york-jeremiah-moss-photo-essay
    Great read, his book.
    I’ve walked pretty much the length and breadth of NYC and lot of Brooklyn in the 1960s and 1970s and just recently twice.
    It’s nothing at street level like it once was.
    I love it still, for Singapore-type reasons, but not as much as I loved walking thru big noisy, dirty, dangerous Manila, where the human carnival is right in my face, even if I am running from it.
    I know it’s a little warped, but I like it now that I can walk thru Morningside Park on the Upper West side of Harlem, even after dark. But I kind of liked NOT being able to walk thru it decades ago, even during daylight hours.
    There is less urban edge to wholesale gentrification, whether it’s rump tower or an upscale Starbucks filled with liberal Democrats.

  290. New York has been captured by the great America commercial finance capitalism leveling influences of the outer boroughs and the suburbs of flyover America:
    https://ny.curbed.com/2017/8/24/16190884/vanishing-new-york-jeremiah-moss-photo-essay
    Great read, his book.
    I’ve walked pretty much the length and breadth of NYC and lot of Brooklyn in the 1960s and 1970s and just recently twice.
    It’s nothing at street level like it once was.
    I love it still, for Singapore-type reasons, but not as much as I loved walking thru big noisy, dirty, dangerous Manila, where the human carnival is right in my face, even if I am running from it.
    I know it’s a little warped, but I like it now that I can walk thru Morningside Park on the Upper West side of Harlem, even after dark. But I kind of liked NOT being able to walk thru it decades ago, even during daylight hours.
    There is less urban edge to wholesale gentrification, whether it’s rump tower or an upscale Starbucks filled with liberal Democrats.

  291. To repeat, for those who can’t read or open another tab, it was number 44 on the top post, “President Monster.” Won’t get any pushback there Arnade hating isn’t notable:
    From Unfogged, I can do this all day.
    “44: Dog-whistles for the “front row kids.”Arnade and his McDonald’s buddy JD Vance are both in for some very aggressive skull-gnawing.
    Posted by: JP Stormcrow”
    Link although they can edit and change over there if they see this
    I think Arnade sat down with Vance for a lunch once. But I guess this is the kind of thing makes Arnade hateable
    Why Trump Voters Are Not Idiots

  292. To repeat, for those who can’t read or open another tab, it was number 44 on the top post, “President Monster.” Won’t get any pushback there Arnade hating isn’t notable:
    From Unfogged, I can do this all day.
    “44: Dog-whistles for the “front row kids.”Arnade and his McDonald’s buddy JD Vance are both in for some very aggressive skull-gnawing.
    Posted by: JP Stormcrow”
    Link although they can edit and change over there if they see this
    I think Arnade sat down with Vance for a lunch once. But I guess this is the kind of thing makes Arnade hateable
    Why Trump Voters Are Not Idiots

  293. Speaking of cultural and regional distinctions (we were, right?) can somebody tell me why a guy from Alabama – Roy Moore, for instance – wears a cowboy hat?
    Cowboy hats show up in the weirdest places. Places that haven’t seen a real live cow in living memory. Or even ever.
    Andrade sounds like an interesting guy, I will have to check him out.

  294. Speaking of cultural and regional distinctions (we were, right?) can somebody tell me why a guy from Alabama – Roy Moore, for instance – wears a cowboy hat?
    Cowboy hats show up in the weirdest places. Places that haven’t seen a real live cow in living memory. Or even ever.
    Andrade sounds like an interesting guy, I will have to check him out.

  295. OK, so I read the Andrade piece mcmanus linked to. Here is my reaction.
    I used to live in a crappy part of Salem MA, in a former Irish and French Canadian immigrant area that is now a Dominican Republic immigrant area. I lived next to the parking lot for a big industrial complex. Used to be factories, now it’s office space, when I lived there it was kind of in-between. Some light manufacturing, a factory outlet place, etc.
    One of my roommates at the time was a grad student. Masters in History program at BU, then BC. He had sort of discovered the Frankfurt School folks and was really interested in all of that social criticism / critical thinking stuff.
    He had a plan. He was going to go get a job at one of the manufacturing outfits still in the industrial complex. He wanted to understand what it was like to live the life of a working person.
    He was still planning on finishing his degree program, and eventually entering academia as a profession. He just wanted this… experience.
    So, Andrade kind of reminds me of my friend, at that point in his life.
    FWIW

  296. OK, so I read the Andrade piece mcmanus linked to. Here is my reaction.
    I used to live in a crappy part of Salem MA, in a former Irish and French Canadian immigrant area that is now a Dominican Republic immigrant area. I lived next to the parking lot for a big industrial complex. Used to be factories, now it’s office space, when I lived there it was kind of in-between. Some light manufacturing, a factory outlet place, etc.
    One of my roommates at the time was a grad student. Masters in History program at BU, then BC. He had sort of discovered the Frankfurt School folks and was really interested in all of that social criticism / critical thinking stuff.
    He had a plan. He was going to go get a job at one of the manufacturing outfits still in the industrial complex. He wanted to understand what it was like to live the life of a working person.
    He was still planning on finishing his degree program, and eventually entering academia as a profession. He just wanted this… experience.
    So, Andrade kind of reminds me of my friend, at that point in his life.
    FWIW

  297. i have never heard of Arnade before.
    but i’m thoroughly sick of apologetics for – and anthropological studies of – Trump voters. Trump has always been a total and obvious scumbag; but they voted for him anyway, and even now they love him. that’s entirely on them. and making excuses for their choice feels like condescension.

  298. i have never heard of Arnade before.
    but i’m thoroughly sick of apologetics for – and anthropological studies of – Trump voters. Trump has always been a total and obvious scumbag; but they voted for him anyway, and even now they love him. that’s entirely on them. and making excuses for their choice feels like condescension.

  301. Well, whatever makes you feel superior.
    back atcha.
    And actually, my friend was not engaging in slum tourism. He was interested in understanding what the lives of working people were like. It wasn’t part of his experience, he wanted to try to make it part of his experience.
    Calling it “slum tourism” gives no credit to what was a sincere interest on his part in understanding what the lives of people who weren’t like him were like.
    I have no particular criticism of Andrade, I appreciate his interest in getting out of his bubble and talking to people who aren’t like him. I appreciate his advocacy of their interests. I appreciate and respect what appears to be a sincere effort to give them a voice.
    And, what I personally experience from his work is him giving everyone else in the world a freaking lecture. It sounds like he as Discovered Poverty, and wants to use his access to a media channel to make us all understand what he has seen.
    He kind of wants to Explain It All to us. And yes, that is a somewhat condescending point of view.
    Some of us already have a clue about what poverty is, and about what people who don’t live in prosperous places live with. Even if we don’t live there ourselves. It’s great that Andrade has had his epiphany, but many of us are sort of already there. Or, close enough to already there that we don’t need his instruction.
    I have no beef with Andrade, nor do I think he is going to teach me much of anything. I have the same opinion of Vance.

  302. Well, whatever makes you feel superior.
    back atcha.
    And actually, my friend was not engaging in slum tourism. He was interested in understanding what the lives of working people were like. It wasn’t part of his experience, he wanted to try to make it part of his experience.
    Calling it “slum tourism” gives no credit to what was a sincere interest on his part in understanding what the lives of people who weren’t like him were like.
    I have no particular criticism of Andrade, I appreciate his interest in getting out of his bubble and talking to people who aren’t like him. I appreciate his advocacy of their interests. I appreciate and respect what appears to be a sincere effort to give them a voice.
    And, what I personally experience from his work is him giving everyone else in the world a freaking lecture. It sounds like he as Discovered Poverty, and wants to use his access to a media channel to make us all understand what he has seen.
    He kind of wants to Explain It All to us. And yes, that is a somewhat condescending point of view.
    Some of us already have a clue about what poverty is, and about what people who don’t live in prosperous places live with. Even if we don’t live there ourselves. It’s great that Andrade has had his epiphany, but many of us are sort of already there. Or, close enough to already there that we don’t need his instruction.
    I have no beef with Andrade, nor do I think he is going to teach me much of anything. I have the same opinion of Vance.

  303. “slum” ?
    the average Trump voter is not a poor person and doesn’t live in a slum. Clinton voters were more likely to be poor than Trump voters.
    Arnade wants to talk about elites vs workign class folk. and he tried to do that with a “Trump voter” frame. but if Arnade wanted a realistic picture of an average Trump voter he would’ve shown a picture of a middle-aged white guy who lives in the rural suburbs and makes $75K.

  304. “slum” ?
    the average Trump voter is not a poor person and doesn’t live in a slum. Clinton voters were more likely to be poor than Trump voters.
    Arnade wants to talk about elites vs workign class folk. and he tried to do that with a “Trump voter” frame. but if Arnade wanted a realistic picture of an average Trump voter he would’ve shown a picture of a middle-aged white guy who lives in the rural suburbs and makes $75K.

  307. Look up the biographies of nearly every actor/actress, writer, musician painter, sculptor, performance artist in America who has ended up in the coastal elite metropolises, and see how nearly every one of them was born and raised in so-called flyover country.
    Isn’t that why you get elite metropolises – because talented people move to them from all over the country?

  308. Look up the biographies of nearly every actor/actress, writer, musician painter, sculptor, performance artist in America who has ended up in the coastal elite metropolises, and see how nearly every one of them was born and raised in so-called flyover country.
    Isn’t that why you get elite metropolises – because talented people move to them from all over the country?

  309. hey, bob!
    How are you? I only wrote to point out that S. Lemieux is now a resident of my state. He also attended some school in Montreal for his undergrad years….
    Greenwald is insufferable, and not a lefty.
    Jacobin is OK at times, awful at times.
    JD Vance is a conservative grifter.
    LGM is pretty good, esp. Loomis. The commenters seem to be getting a bit insular.
    Maps….hey, I’ve got maps!
    Ya’ll have a good one, y’hear?
    One big union! One big strike!

  310. hey, bob!
    How are you? I only wrote to point out that S. Lemieux is now a resident of my state. He also attended some school in Montreal for his undergrad years….
    Greenwald is insufferable, and not a lefty.
    Jacobin is OK at times, awful at times.
    JD Vance is a conservative grifter.
    LGM is pretty good, esp. Loomis. The commenters seem to be getting a bit insular.
    Maps….hey, I’ve got maps!
    Ya’ll have a good one, y’hear?
    One big union! One big strike!

  311. Calling it “slum tourism” gives no credit to what was a sincere interest on his part in understanding what the lives of people who weren’t like him were like.
    But Russell, you ignore the fact that, if someone has an ideology which explains everything, he don’t have any need for experience of other people’s lives. Because he already understands the (social) world perfectly.
    And, since someone like that understands it perfectly, for him it actually would be “slum tourism.”

  312. Calling it “slum tourism” gives no credit to what was a sincere interest on his part in understanding what the lives of people who weren’t like him were like.
    But Russell, you ignore the fact that, if someone has an ideology which explains everything, he don’t have any need for experience of other people’s lives. Because he already understands the (social) world perfectly.
    And, since someone like that understands it perfectly, for him it actually would be “slum tourism.”

  313. Read the Arnade article. There’s some good stuff in there, and then there is drek like this:
    How does a voter chose a candidate? They come up with a probability-adjusted valuation. They multiple the chance of each outcome versus the value of that outcome. The result is one number. They chose the candidate that maximizes that number for them.
    and moving on, he writes:
    The only thing they can do, faced with that, is break the fucking system. And they are going to try. Either by Trump or by some other way.
    But that is not their only choice. And they did not vote for Trump to “break the system”. He is not breaking it, he is abusing it.

  314. Read the Arnade article. There’s some good stuff in there, and then there is drek like this:
    How does a voter chose a candidate? They come up with a probability-adjusted valuation. They multiple the chance of each outcome versus the value of that outcome. The result is one number. They chose the candidate that maximizes that number for them.
    and moving on, he writes:
    The only thing they can do, faced with that, is break the fucking system. And they are going to try. Either by Trump or by some other way.
    But that is not their only choice. And they did not vote for Trump to “break the system”. He is not breaking it, he is abusing it.

  315. Speaking of cultural and regional distinctions (we were, right?) can somebody tell me why a guy from Alabama – Roy Moore, for instance – wears a cowboy hat?
    Disregarding the use of the hat as a political and/or style statement, a cowboy hat or something similar in basic construction is useful when you’re going to spend time riding/hiking in the brush. The wide brim shades face, ears, and neck. The brim is stiff enough that when you push through brush, you can tip your head forward and protect your face and ears. It keeps rain from running down the back of your collar. If you have to work on something, you can take it off and put a half-dozen parts or little tools in it to keep from losing them. If you’re fly-fishing, it makes it harder — but not impossible — to hook your own ear with the fly. Cowboy hats are easy to get.
    When my father did field audits for the insurance company in outstate Nebraska, he wore his dress boots and an “owners” Stetson so that everyone knew he was there to do things related to money. When I spent time in outstate Nebraska when I was in college, scuffed-up boots and a hat were both practical for field work as well as protective coloration.
    Note that if you’re riding a horse, the horse will find an opportunity to drag you through tall brush or low-handing tree limbs. It’s just one of the things that horses do to remind you that you’re up there on sufferance.

  316. Speaking of cultural and regional distinctions (we were, right?) can somebody tell me why a guy from Alabama – Roy Moore, for instance – wears a cowboy hat?
    Disregarding the use of the hat as a political and/or style statement, a cowboy hat or something similar in basic construction is useful when you’re going to spend time riding/hiking in the brush. The wide brim shades face, ears, and neck. The brim is stiff enough that when you push through brush, you can tip your head forward and protect your face and ears. It keeps rain from running down the back of your collar. If you have to work on something, you can take it off and put a half-dozen parts or little tools in it to keep from losing them. If you’re fly-fishing, it makes it harder — but not impossible — to hook your own ear with the fly. Cowboy hats are easy to get.
    When my father did field audits for the insurance company in outstate Nebraska, he wore his dress boots and an “owners” Stetson so that everyone knew he was there to do things related to money. When I spent time in outstate Nebraska when I was in college, scuffed-up boots and a hat were both practical for field work as well as protective coloration.
    Note that if you’re riding a horse, the horse will find an opportunity to drag you through tall brush or low-handing tree limbs. It’s just one of the things that horses do to remind you that you’re up there on sufferance.

  317. Cleek:but if Arnade wanted a realistic picture of an average Trump voter he would’ve shown a picture of a middle-aged white guy who lives in the rural suburbs and makes $75K.
    Here’s cleek: statistics and polls and analysis shows that the median Trump voter makes $75k
    Here’s Andrade: See this picture, this guy here. He voted for Trump. Here’s his story.
    Think about the difference for a while.
    Last Days of Roy Moore Vanity Fair but probably written by a white guy. I’m infamous for long quotes because people don’t follow links and thread space is cheap. Long, lots of other good stuff at the link. Via Naked Capitalism, another place LGM hates.

    The defeat of Roy Moore will also be cast as a major defeat for Steve Bannon and Bannonism, which, of course, it was. But not, I suspect, as much as people think. I’d been to lots of small towns with boarded-up storefronts, but I’d never seen anything quite like Brundidge, Alabama, a town of 1,972 in Pike County. On the main thoroughfare, over which hung tinsel stars for Christmas, two out of three stores appeared to be empty—not boarded up, just tidy and deserted. From mounted loudspeakers came the strains of “Frosty the Snowman,” which reverberated on the walls of the empty storefronts on the unpeopled street. As I discovered, though, there can be something more depressing than “Frosty the Snowman” reverberating on the walls of empty storefronts on an unpeopled street. It’s when the CD player starts to skip.
    To the extent that Bannonism is true—that removing buffer after buffer that once protected American workers from the unbridled global market has ravaged places like Brundidge—it is unlikely to fade away.
    People sometimes state that even poor Americans are rich relative to people in other countries, but it’s no longer true, if it ever was. In one rural area outside of Troy, I looked for people to interview—unsuccessfully, as I was turned down—on a road in which a new trailer was the fanciest residence in the area. The rest were tiny trailers with corrugated metal siding rusted from rain. On some, the windows were boarded up. On one, attempts to arrest the decay by putting up plywood had not kept pace with the deterioration, and water damage had warped the siding, causing panels to bend outward at the edges and the bottom third of one panel to rot away, with yellowish insulation cascading out. On another, the bottoms of the windows were giving way, and the door had been repaired with copious duct tape.
    It’s integrated poverty: black and white live side by side. It’s non-voting poverty, too, because voting is primarily a wealthy and middle-class practice. But the hopes for places like that will rest in employment that doesn’t require outstanding skill, just a willingness to work diligently for a living wage, as people once could in the mills of the South. That means doing more to protect them in ways that our well-meaning but inflexible ruling class can’t really imagine. Roy Moore was not going to help these Americans. But the worry is that Doug Jones, well-meaning as he is, won’t do so either. And I hope that worry is wrong.

  318. Cleek:but if Arnade wanted a realistic picture of an average Trump voter he would’ve shown a picture of a middle-aged white guy who lives in the rural suburbs and makes $75K.
    Here’s cleek: statistics and polls and analysis shows that the median Trump voter makes $75k
    Here’s Andrade: See this picture, this guy here. He voted for Trump. Here’s his story.
    Think about the difference for a while.
    Last Days of Roy Moore Vanity Fair but probably written by a white guy. I’m infamous for long quotes because people don’t follow links and thread space is cheap. Long, lots of other good stuff at the link. Via Naked Capitalism, another place LGM hates.

    The defeat of Roy Moore will also be cast as a major defeat for Steve Bannon and Bannonism, which, of course, it was. But not, I suspect, as much as people think. I’d been to lots of small towns with boarded-up storefronts, but I’d never seen anything quite like Brundidge, Alabama, a town of 1,972 in Pike County. On the main thoroughfare, over which hung tinsel stars for Christmas, two out of three stores appeared to be empty—not boarded up, just tidy and deserted. From mounted loudspeakers came the strains of “Frosty the Snowman,” which reverberated on the walls of the empty storefronts on the unpeopled street. As I discovered, though, there can be something more depressing than “Frosty the Snowman” reverberating on the walls of empty storefronts on an unpeopled street. It’s when the CD player starts to skip.
    To the extent that Bannonism is true—that removing buffer after buffer that once protected American workers from the unbridled global market has ravaged places like Brundidge—it is unlikely to fade away.
    People sometimes state that even poor Americans are rich relative to people in other countries, but it’s no longer true, if it ever was. In one rural area outside of Troy, I looked for people to interview—unsuccessfully, as I was turned down—on a road in which a new trailer was the fanciest residence in the area. The rest were tiny trailers with corrugated metal siding rusted from rain. On some, the windows were boarded up. On one, attempts to arrest the decay by putting up plywood had not kept pace with the deterioration, and water damage had warped the siding, causing panels to bend outward at the edges and the bottom third of one panel to rot away, with yellowish insulation cascading out. On another, the bottoms of the windows were giving way, and the door had been repaired with copious duct tape.
    It’s integrated poverty: black and white live side by side. It’s non-voting poverty, too, because voting is primarily a wealthy and middle-class practice. But the hopes for places like that will rest in employment that doesn’t require outstanding skill, just a willingness to work diligently for a living wage, as people once could in the mills of the South. That means doing more to protect them in ways that our well-meaning but inflexible ruling class can’t really imagine. Roy Moore was not going to help these Americans. But the worry is that Doug Jones, well-meaning as he is, won’t do so either. And I hope that worry is wrong.

  319. “Isn’t that why you get elite metropolises – because talented people move to them from all over the country?”
    Precisely the point.
    But you get left-behind flyover country too in an upwardly mobile meritocracy wherein talent moves like moths to the brightest light.
    What could be more American? Talented finance capitalists rarely stay where they can’t go home again, too.
    Of course, Johnny Carson had more reason to wax nostalgic for his hometown than say, Tennessee Williams or Allen Ginsburg, though the second in that list had Harper Lee to kind of take up the slack for him.
    Ginsburg grew up in Paterson, New Jersey.
    Warren Buffet stayed put. Walker Percy and Flannery O’Conner too.
    On the other hand, the small, false, shallow, untalented, grifting gods like Falwell, Robertson, and Ralph Reed, to name a few, rack up the frequent flier miles to Washington D. C., but I wouldn’t be surprised if they were merely following the expensive hookers.
    McManus quoted:
    “That means doing more to protect them in ways that our well-meaning but inflexible ruling class can’t really imagine. Roy Moore was not going to help these Americans. But the worry is that Doug Jones, well-meaning as he is, won’t do so either. And I hope that worry is wrong.”
    Me too. Sometimes sadism on the one side and benign neglect on the other turn out to have similar consequences.

  320. “Isn’t that why you get elite metropolises – because talented people move to them from all over the country?”
    Precisely the point.
    But you get left-behind flyover country too in an upwardly mobile meritocracy wherein talent moves like moths to the brightest light.
    What could be more American? Talented finance capitalists rarely stay where they can’t go home again, too.
    Of course, Johnny Carson had more reason to wax nostalgic for his hometown than say, Tennessee Williams or Allen Ginsburg, though the second in that list had Harper Lee to kind of take up the slack for him.
    Ginsburg grew up in Paterson, New Jersey.
    Warren Buffet stayed put. Walker Percy and Flannery O’Conner too.
    On the other hand, the small, false, shallow, untalented, grifting gods like Falwell, Robertson, and Ralph Reed, to name a few, rack up the frequent flier miles to Washington D. C., but I wouldn’t be surprised if they were merely following the expensive hookers.
    McManus quoted:
    “That means doing more to protect them in ways that our well-meaning but inflexible ruling class can’t really imagine. Roy Moore was not going to help these Americans. But the worry is that Doug Jones, well-meaning as he is, won’t do so either. And I hope that worry is wrong.”
    Me too. Sometimes sadism on the one side and benign neglect on the other turn out to have similar consequences.

  321. When I lived in the NE urban corridor 30 years ago, the disdain towards the rest of the country independent of politics was palpable.
    Well, Michael, I lived in the South for decades. Alabama and Tennessee. Let me assure you that the disdain for the NE, independent of politics, was also palpable, at a minimum.
    I am very tired of being told I have to more sympathetic to southerners, inland westerners, etc. by people who don’t seem to ever tell the southerners and inland westerners to be sympathetic to us coastal types.
    Besides, I am sympathetic, to southerners anyway, just not in the way you would like.

  322. When I lived in the NE urban corridor 30 years ago, the disdain towards the rest of the country independent of politics was palpable.
    Well, Michael, I lived in the South for decades. Alabama and Tennessee. Let me assure you that the disdain for the NE, independent of politics, was also palpable, at a minimum.
    I am very tired of being told I have to more sympathetic to southerners, inland westerners, etc. by people who don’t seem to ever tell the southerners and inland westerners to be sympathetic to us coastal types.
    Besides, I am sympathetic, to southerners anyway, just not in the way you would like.

  323. We need rural and RedState Democrats, probably at least a third of the Party. We are not going to flip rural Repubs or marginals purple blue without Dems in Tyler and Amarillo.
    Well, OK. But those Democratic voters (and strong candidates) in TX and TN (where the chance of picking up Corker’s seat is excellent) and elsewhere are going to be exactly the kind of centrists you seem to despise.

  324. We need rural and RedState Democrats, probably at least a third of the Party. We are not going to flip rural Repubs or marginals purple blue without Dems in Tyler and Amarillo.
    Well, OK. But those Democratic voters (and strong candidates) in TX and TN (where the chance of picking up Corker’s seat is excellent) and elsewhere are going to be exactly the kind of centrists you seem to despise.

  327. LGM, Unfogged, and a few other places have become actively dangerous places since the election, completely cultish in the bitter smug righteousness, dismissing with vociferous and gleeful contempt not only everything to their right, but vast and ever growing populations and writers to their left.
    bob mcmanus, I think that people might feel the same about you as any number of people have questioned why I would feel you have something to add here. I don’t know if that gives you pause, it would me if I were you.

  328. LGM, Unfogged, and a few other places have become actively dangerous places since the election, completely cultish in the bitter smug righteousness, dismissing with vociferous and gleeful contempt not only everything to their right, but vast and ever growing populations and writers to their left.
    bob mcmanus, I think that people might feel the same about you as any number of people have questioned why I would feel you have something to add here. I don’t know if that gives you pause, it would me if I were you.

  329. Think about the difference for a while.
    ok, done.
    one is a fact. the other is a story that appeals to people who want their biases confirmed.

  330. Think about the difference for a while.
    ok, done.
    one is a fact. the other is a story that appeals to people who want their biases confirmed.

  331. In New York City, a southern or western man, gay or straight, can pretty much purchase a custom cake anywhere with a showgirl girl hidden inside and ready to leap out of it into Jaime Dimon’s lap, whereas in the South and in Lakewood, Colorado you may or not get the cake, but if you are a gay man, they try to sell you the girl separately.
    This week’s almost over.

  332. In New York City, a southern or western man, gay or straight, can pretty much purchase a custom cake anywhere with a showgirl girl hidden inside and ready to leap out of it into Jaime Dimon’s lap, whereas in the South and in Lakewood, Colorado you may or not get the cake, but if you are a gay man, they try to sell you the girl separately.
    This week’s almost over.

  333. … a willingness to work diligently for a living wage, as people once could in the mills of the South. That means doing more to protect them in ways that our well-meaning but inflexible ruling class can’t really imagine…
    I’m not part of the ruling class, but I can’t really imagine it either. How do well-meaning and flexible blog commentators want to achieve this?

  334. … a willingness to work diligently for a living wage, as people once could in the mills of the South. That means doing more to protect them in ways that our well-meaning but inflexible ruling class can’t really imagine…
    I’m not part of the ruling class, but I can’t really imagine it either. How do well-meaning and flexible blog commentators want to achieve this?

  337. with respect to LJ’s comment at 5:22 pm–
    I now find myself often quitting looking at comment threads as soon as I see a bob mcmanus comment. That’s true at other blogs as well as here.

  338. with respect to LJ’s comment at 5:22 pm–
    I now find myself often quitting looking at comment threads as soon as I see a bob mcmanus comment. That’s true at other blogs as well as here.

  339. How do well-meaning and flexible blog commentators want to achieve this?
    Attack corporate and grifting Democrats as hard as as often as racist sexist Republicans. Hope you get company. If you don’t have company skip the second part, because you aren’t needed in that fight.
    I don’t know if that gives you pause
    Not a second, after 16 years, after Klein and Yglesias supported the illegal invasion of Iraq and then were forgiven;after HRC the same; after Obama sold out to Wall Street…I understand better than they do why Democrats and liberals prefer to fight Republicans than to engage their Left.
    It pays better.

  340. How do well-meaning and flexible blog commentators want to achieve this?
    Attack corporate and grifting Democrats as hard as as often as racist sexist Republicans. Hope you get company. If you don’t have company skip the second part, because you aren’t needed in that fight.
    I don’t know if that gives you pause
    Not a second, after 16 years, after Klein and Yglesias supported the illegal invasion of Iraq and then were forgiven;after HRC the same; after Obama sold out to Wall Street…I understand better than they do why Democrats and liberals prefer to fight Republicans than to engage their Left.
    It pays better.

  341. rack up the frequent flier miles to Washington D. C.
    Here is my offer, as a lifelong NE corridor coastal elitist:
    The NE corridor is generally considered to run from Boston to DC. We will let any other part of the country have DC. Come and get it.
    You, too, can enjoy the heady atmosphere created by the presence of money and power.
    Take the nation’s capital, please. I’ll even help the folks there pack.

  342. rack up the frequent flier miles to Washington D. C.
    Here is my offer, as a lifelong NE corridor coastal elitist:
    The NE corridor is generally considered to run from Boston to DC. We will let any other part of the country have DC. Come and get it.
    You, too, can enjoy the heady atmosphere created by the presence of money and power.
    Take the nation’s capital, please. I’ll even help the folks there pack.

  343. I agree with a lot of what bob says. Not committing myself to all of it. I think he is right about LGM. I think Andrade is worth reading.
    We are all a bit tribal, and I am including myself. In the not so good old days, the mainstream press had a near monopoly on the news and centrists despised the far left and right. Now with the internet and cable we can all find our little niches and despise the people outside them.

  344. I agree with a lot of what bob says. Not committing myself to all of it. I think he is right about LGM. I think Andrade is worth reading.
    We are all a bit tribal, and I am including myself. In the not so good old days, the mainstream press had a near monopoly on the news and centrists despised the far left and right. Now with the internet and cable we can all find our little niches and despise the people outside them.

  345. Aside from the “practical” reasons for wearing a cowboy hat, a person is entitled to wear one if they were born West of the Mississippi river, or ride in a rodeo.
    I, for one, look forward to Moore’s new career as a rodeo clown; he’s got lots of experience “doing stupid things in public”, certainly.

  346. Aside from the “practical” reasons for wearing a cowboy hat, a person is entitled to wear one if they were born West of the Mississippi river, or ride in a rodeo.
    I, for one, look forward to Moore’s new career as a rodeo clown; he’s got lots of experience “doing stupid things in public”, certainly.

  347. a person is entitled to wear one if they were born West of the Mississippi river, or ride in a rodeo.
    otherwise it’s cultural appropriation.
    /ducks

  348. a person is entitled to wear one if they were born West of the Mississippi river, or ride in a rodeo.
    otherwise it’s cultural appropriation.
    /ducks

  349. How do well-meaning and flexible blog commentators want to achieve this?
    Attack corporate and grifting Democrats as hard as as often as racist sexist Republicans.
    Attacking corporate Democrats is going to create jobs for people living in trailers in Alabama? Sorry, I’m too unimaginative to see how.

  350. How do well-meaning and flexible blog commentators want to achieve this?
    Attack corporate and grifting Democrats as hard as as often as racist sexist Republicans.
    Attacking corporate Democrats is going to create jobs for people living in trailers in Alabama? Sorry, I’m too unimaginative to see how.

  351. Basically, he’s making the same bet as Bannon: that if he can somehow destroy the existing political parties, they will somehow be magically replaced by a political environment that fits his personal preferences.
    His and Bannon’s preferences may be different. Their idea of how to achieve their (micro-minority) dream is identical — and identically untethered from reality.

  352. Basically, he’s making the same bet as Bannon: that if he can somehow destroy the existing political parties, they will somehow be magically replaced by a political environment that fits his personal preferences.
    His and Bannon’s preferences may be different. Their idea of how to achieve their (micro-minority) dream is identical — and identically untethered from reality.

  353. Not a second, after 16 years, after Klein and Yglesias supported the illegal invasion of Iraq and then were forgiven;after HRC the same; after Obama sold out to Wall Street
    I didn’t think it would but hope springs eternal. However Naomi and Matt aren’t returning my calls, so I guess the only solution is to have them drawn and quartered.

  354. Not a second, after 16 years, after Klein and Yglesias supported the illegal invasion of Iraq and then were forgiven;after HRC the same; after Obama sold out to Wall Street
    I didn’t think it would but hope springs eternal. However Naomi and Matt aren’t returning my calls, so I guess the only solution is to have them drawn and quartered.

  359. Aside from the “practical” reasons for wearing a cowboy hat, a person is entitled to wear one if they were born West of the Mississippi river, or ride in a rodeo.
    Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana are all in the top half of beef producing states in the country. Much of those states are at least as well suited to going after cows and calves on horseback than any other method. My limited experience in the South suggests to me that a cowboy (or equivalent) hat would be highly desirable for almost anything done on horseback there.

  360. Aside from the “practical” reasons for wearing a cowboy hat, a person is entitled to wear one if they were born West of the Mississippi river, or ride in a rodeo.
    Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana are all in the top half of beef producing states in the country. Much of those states are at least as well suited to going after cows and calves on horseback than any other method. My limited experience in the South suggests to me that a cowboy (or equivalent) hat would be highly desirable for almost anything done on horseback there.

  363. Michael,
    I suppose the number of “beef producing” states is less than 50, so the 5 states you mention belong to the group of less than 25 in the “top half”. Fine. How do they raise beef in those 5 states? Ride the range and round’em up? Or grow them in CFO lots?
    BTW, I bet MA, NY, NJ, PA, and CA are at least as far up in the list of “degree producing” states as the states you mention are in beef production. A mortarboard cap serves many of the practical functions you attribute to cowboy hats. But we don’t wear them around town.
    –TP

  364. Michael,
    I suppose the number of “beef producing” states is less than 50, so the 5 states you mention belong to the group of less than 25 in the “top half”. Fine. How do they raise beef in those 5 states? Ride the range and round’em up? Or grow them in CFO lots?
    BTW, I bet MA, NY, NJ, PA, and CA are at least as far up in the list of “degree producing” states as the states you mention are in beef production. A mortarboard cap serves many of the practical functions you attribute to cowboy hats. But we don’t wear them around town.
    –TP

  367. cowboy hats are not required for beef production. cows do not care about haberdashery. people have herded cattle for thousands of years without cowboy hats.
    it’s an affectation, a costume.

  368. cowboy hats are not required for beef production. cows do not care about haberdashery. people have herded cattle for thousands of years without cowboy hats.
    it’s an affectation, a costume.

  369. Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana are all in the top half of beef producing states in the country. Much of those states are at least as well suited to going after cows and calves on horseback than any other method.
    Of course, that would mean a lot of folks in Alabama who would notice just how massively inept Moore was on a horse. Which makes doing so especially dumb.

  370. Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana are all in the top half of beef producing states in the country. Much of those states are at least as well suited to going after cows and calves on horseback than any other method.
    Of course, that would mean a lot of folks in Alabama who would notice just how massively inept Moore was on a horse. Which makes doing so especially dumb.

  371. cows do not care about haberdashery.
    Who said they did? People who spend time riding horses cross country finding the damned cows and their calves and chasing them in care about it quite a bit, though. For the practical reasons listed above. Look at 19th-century photographs of horse-based cow operations from around the world — North America, South America, Australia — and you see some variation of the stiff wide-brimmed hat.

  372. cows do not care about haberdashery.
    Who said they did? People who spend time riding horses cross country finding the damned cows and their calves and chasing them in care about it quite a bit, though. For the practical reasons listed above. Look at 19th-century photographs of horse-based cow operations from around the world — North America, South America, Australia — and you see some variation of the stiff wide-brimmed hat.

  379. stiff wide-brimmed hat.
    a “cowboy hat” is a specific style. it’s the Stetson style, specifically: curved sides, pinched crown. you won’t see a poseur like Roy Moore wearing a sombrero, after all.

  380. stiff wide-brimmed hat.
    a “cowboy hat” is a specific style. it’s the Stetson style, specifically: curved sides, pinched crown. you won’t see a poseur like Roy Moore wearing a sombrero, after all.

  381. Actually a cowboy hat covers a whole range of hats that includes Stetsons, which are formable anyway. Like boots, cowboys have different hats for different functions, working hats, go to meeting hats, funeral hats. Even the curved brim crowned hat has practical uses but it is far from being THE cowboy hat.

  382. Actually a cowboy hat covers a whole range of hats that includes Stetsons, which are formable anyway. Like boots, cowboys have different hats for different functions, working hats, go to meeting hats, funeral hats. Even the curved brim crowned hat has practical uses but it is far from being THE cowboy hat.

  383. it’s a whole range, sure. but it’s also a pretty narrow range. everybody knows what a “cowboy hat” looks like.

  384. it’s a whole range, sure. but it’s also a pretty narrow range. everybody knows what a “cowboy hat” looks like.

  385. Interesting, have been googling different cowboy hats.
    Paniola hat (Hawaiian cowboy hat)
    gaucho hat (Argentine)
    australian cowboy hat
    turns up some interesting variations.

  386. Interesting, have been googling different cowboy hats.
    Paniola hat (Hawaiian cowboy hat)
    gaucho hat (Argentine)
    australian cowboy hat
    turns up some interesting variations.

  387. I actually get the cultural resonance aspect of cowboy hats, however construed, and also their practical utility.
    I just couldn’t figure out why a guy running for US Senator from Alabama would go that way. They always seemed like more of a western / southwestern thing.
    Michael Caine’s information about ranching in AL makes sense. I just wasn’t aware ranching was a thing in AL.
    Live and learn!

  388. I actually get the cultural resonance aspect of cowboy hats, however construed, and also their practical utility.
    I just couldn’t figure out why a guy running for US Senator from Alabama would go that way. They always seemed like more of a western / southwestern thing.
    Michael Caine’s information about ranching in AL makes sense. I just wasn’t aware ranching was a thing in AL.
    Live and learn!

  389. hsh wins the thread
    *****
    Like boots, cowboys have different hats for different functions, working hats, go to meeting hats, funeral hats.
    The earth must be flipping upside down; I’m agreeing with Marty twice before breakfast.
    Yes, people wear different hats (and other clothing) for different functions. Even I put on my best jeans sometimes.
    The thing about Moore is, there was no meaningful reason to go to the polls riding a horse (badly) and wearing a cowboy hat, or to pull out a little pistol while giving a campaign speech — and wearing a cowboy hat. The only “reason” is that among all his other unadmirable qualities, Moore is a poser. What he thought he was suggesting with those antics, I hope I never know.
    As for the usefulness of cowboy hats, sure, but Marty’s point stands. Moore was *not* riding the range looking for dogies, he was going to vote, and giving speeches.
    Playing devil’s advocate a bit, though: The hat thing wouldn’t seem so ludicrous to me if it weren’t for the pistol and the horse — *if* Moore has always worn cowboy hats and for whatever unknown reason that’s his schtick. I like hats. I’ve always worn hats almost all the time I’m outside, even as a teenager (very unfashionable, I can tell you). For a long time I had a little brimmed hat styled like (so they say) a Greek fisherman’s hat. I wore it everywhere. I was/am not a Greek fisherman. Later, for years, I wore a felt hat I got in Shannon duty-free shop. That was an *Irish* fisherman’s hat. Come to think of it, maybe I missed my vocation, or avocation.
    The hat isn’t important. The posing isn’t even all that important. The lying, the abuse of children, the flouting of the Constitution, the wish to roll back the clock on women’s and minority rights, the nostalgia for slavery, the fact that 600,000 people still voted for this asshole on Tuesday, and however many millions for the bigger asshole in the WH, that’s the problem.

  390. hsh wins the thread
    *****
    Like boots, cowboys have different hats for different functions, working hats, go to meeting hats, funeral hats.
    The earth must be flipping upside down; I’m agreeing with Marty twice before breakfast.
    Yes, people wear different hats (and other clothing) for different functions. Even I put on my best jeans sometimes.
    The thing about Moore is, there was no meaningful reason to go to the polls riding a horse (badly) and wearing a cowboy hat, or to pull out a little pistol while giving a campaign speech — and wearing a cowboy hat. The only “reason” is that among all his other unadmirable qualities, Moore is a poser. What he thought he was suggesting with those antics, I hope I never know.
    As for the usefulness of cowboy hats, sure, but Marty’s point stands. Moore was *not* riding the range looking for dogies, he was going to vote, and giving speeches.
    Playing devil’s advocate a bit, though: The hat thing wouldn’t seem so ludicrous to me if it weren’t for the pistol and the horse — *if* Moore has always worn cowboy hats and for whatever unknown reason that’s his schtick. I like hats. I’ve always worn hats almost all the time I’m outside, even as a teenager (very unfashionable, I can tell you). For a long time I had a little brimmed hat styled like (so they say) a Greek fisherman’s hat. I wore it everywhere. I was/am not a Greek fisherman. Later, for years, I wore a felt hat I got in Shannon duty-free shop. That was an *Irish* fisherman’s hat. Come to think of it, maybe I missed my vocation, or avocation.
    The hat isn’t important. The posing isn’t even all that important. The lying, the abuse of children, the flouting of the Constitution, the wish to roll back the clock on women’s and minority rights, the nostalgia for slavery, the fact that 600,000 people still voted for this asshole on Tuesday, and however many millions for the bigger asshole in the WH, that’s the problem.

  391. Moore looked ridiculous, hat too small gun was a toy, vest was stupid. All hat and no cattle is the nicest thing you could say about him.

  392. Moore looked ridiculous, hat too small gun was a toy, vest was stupid. All hat and no cattle is the nicest thing you could say about him.

  393. I like hats. I’ve always worn hats almost all the time I’m outside, even as a teenager (very unfashionable, I can tell you).
    ha! I had that urge as a teenager. Had a hat rack. Still love them, but for me, the primary reason was to have something to hang an identity on. So it would be hypocritical for me to bust Moore for being a poser. it might be better if we had more posers, as long as they were posing as sympathetic human beings. Sadly, that doesn’t seem to be the case.
    I actually felt the slightest twinge of sympathy for Moore when I read about his sojourn to Australia
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/03/why-did-roy-moore-escape-to-australia-clues-remain-in-the-outback-wilderness
    Sounds like someone wrestling with his conscience at some point.

  394. I like hats. I’ve always worn hats almost all the time I’m outside, even as a teenager (very unfashionable, I can tell you).
    ha! I had that urge as a teenager. Had a hat rack. Still love them, but for me, the primary reason was to have something to hang an identity on. So it would be hypocritical for me to bust Moore for being a poser. it might be better if we had more posers, as long as they were posing as sympathetic human beings. Sadly, that doesn’t seem to be the case.
    I actually felt the slightest twinge of sympathy for Moore when I read about his sojourn to Australia
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/03/why-did-roy-moore-escape-to-australia-clues-remain-in-the-outback-wilderness
    Sounds like someone wrestling with his conscience at some point.

  395. Moore was an obvious grifter and part of me is sorry Republicans won’t be burdened with that weird creepy dude.
    This election was a no-brainer and Alabama is just a smidgen over 50% sane. It took 30% of the whites and 96% of the blacks to achieve that.

  396. Moore was an obvious grifter and part of me is sorry Republicans won’t be burdened with that weird creepy dude.
    This election was a no-brainer and Alabama is just a smidgen over 50% sane. It took 30% of the whites and 96% of the blacks to achieve that.

  397. turns up some interesting variations.
    hats are just one of those things (like women’s shoes and sonnets) where very slight differences somehow creates an entirely new style.
    take a typical cowboy hat and make the brim narrower and you have a fedora, or maybe a derby or a Homsburg depending on how and where the crown is pinched. flatter the top and it’s a gambler. narrow the brim a bit more and it might be a bowler or a trilby. flatten the top and it’s a porkpie. take a gambler shape and make it out of stiff straw and it’s a boater. and a Panama hat is distinguished by being made of out straw?
    and they’re all supposed to say different things about the wearer!

  398. turns up some interesting variations.
    hats are just one of those things (like women’s shoes and sonnets) where very slight differences somehow creates an entirely new style.
    take a typical cowboy hat and make the brim narrower and you have a fedora, or maybe a derby or a Homsburg depending on how and where the crown is pinched. flatter the top and it’s a gambler. narrow the brim a bit more and it might be a bowler or a trilby. flatten the top and it’s a porkpie. take a gambler shape and make it out of stiff straw and it’s a boater. and a Panama hat is distinguished by being made of out straw?
    and they’re all supposed to say different things about the wearer!

  401. you won’t see a poseur like Roy Moore wearing a sombrero, after all.
    Well of course not! Sombreros were worn by Mexican immigrants**. So as a “real American” there’s no way Judge Roy Moore would wear one.
    Hmmm, it does occur to me that Moore may have been styling himself as “Judge Roy” is an attempt to link himself to another legendary American: Judge Roy Bean. Hmmm….
    ** OK, OK, those particular Mexicans were mostly here first and it was the Anglos who were immigrants. But don’t confuse the discussion with facts.

  402. you won’t see a poseur like Roy Moore wearing a sombrero, after all.
    Well of course not! Sombreros were worn by Mexican immigrants**. So as a “real American” there’s no way Judge Roy Moore would wear one.
    Hmmm, it does occur to me that Moore may have been styling himself as “Judge Roy” is an attempt to link himself to another legendary American: Judge Roy Bean. Hmmm….
    ** OK, OK, those particular Mexicans were mostly here first and it was the Anglos who were immigrants. But don’t confuse the discussion with facts.

  403. Your cringeworthy video of the day:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-zvNnFjk3Q
    I don’t consider myself enough of a trial lawyer to be qualified to be a federal district court judge, but I’m Louis effin’ Brandeis compared to some of these guys Trump has nominated.
    Gov Scott has put some real idiots on the state appellate bench here in Florida (I have one on a panel right now), but an unqualified appellate judge is less frightening than an unqualified trial judge … especially one who could be handing criminal cases.

  404. Your cringeworthy video of the day:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-zvNnFjk3Q
    I don’t consider myself enough of a trial lawyer to be qualified to be a federal district court judge, but I’m Louis effin’ Brandeis compared to some of these guys Trump has nominated.
    Gov Scott has put some real idiots on the state appellate bench here in Florida (I have one on a panel right now), but an unqualified appellate judge is less frightening than an unqualified trial judge … especially one who could be handing criminal cases.

  405. throw a bunch of low-quality crap at the project just to fill in the gaps.
    Trump brings scumbag builder practices to government!

  406. throw a bunch of low-quality crap at the project just to fill in the gaps.
    Trump brings scumbag builder practices to government!

  407. Pollo, compared to that guy, *I* am Louis Brandeis. And I’ve never even been to law school!
    I would at the very least, when facing a Congressional confirmation hearing, have taken the trouble to read up on things like the Federal Rules of Evidence. This guy either doesn’t really want the job, or figures that he doesn’t need to know anything when being hired for a sinecure.

  408. Pollo, compared to that guy, *I* am Louis Brandeis. And I’ve never even been to law school!
    I would at the very least, when facing a Congressional confirmation hearing, have taken the trouble to read up on things like the Federal Rules of Evidence. This guy either doesn’t really want the job, or figures that he doesn’t need to know anything when being hired for a sinecure.

  409. A Law and Order fan could probably give a credible answer to the Daubert and motion in limine questions.

  410. A Law and Order fan could probably give a credible answer to the Daubert and motion in limine questions.

  415. These days, cowboys are likely to wear give-me caps, steel-toed work boots, and drive Ford F150s. And do herding from aboard a dirt bike.

  416. These days, cowboys are likely to wear give-me caps, steel-toed work boots, and drive Ford F150s. And do herding from aboard a dirt bike.

  423. And do herding from aboard a dirt bike.
    My limited experience has been gathering cow-calf pairs that had been grazing in a national forest. An unpleasant amount of up/down sans trails and with far too many scrubby trees (don’t get me started on 100 years of bad forest management). Then pushing them back to a pasture at a cow’s walking pace.
    I will always remember watching my teen-aged daughter, on a different occasion, on a young horse that had developed a collie’s slavish desire to please her, dancing back and forth in front of a bull that thought he was going to walk away from the little herd. Eventually the bull decided that it wasn’t worth the trouble and went where she wanted him to go. No way that works without a horse.

  424. And do herding from aboard a dirt bike.
    My limited experience has been gathering cow-calf pairs that had been grazing in a national forest. An unpleasant amount of up/down sans trails and with far too many scrubby trees (don’t get me started on 100 years of bad forest management). Then pushing them back to a pasture at a cow’s walking pace.
    I will always remember watching my teen-aged daughter, on a different occasion, on a young horse that had developed a collie’s slavish desire to please her, dancing back and forth in front of a bull that thought he was going to walk away from the little herd. Eventually the bull decided that it wasn’t worth the trouble and went where she wanted him to go. No way that works without a horse.

  425. Michael Cain, that’s a very interesting and sweet story. Would love to have had that kind of experience with large animals.

  426. Michael Cain, that’s a very interesting and sweet story. Would love to have had that kind of experience with large animals.

  427. My experience with large animals is as close to zero as one could get, but lots of reading about how police use horses for crowd control, armies used cavalry and, not least of all, Faulkner’s Spotted Horses has me feel like I’m glad I live in an age where one’s worth isn’t measured by how well they get along with large animals.
    “Them’s good, gentle ponies,” the stranger said. “Watch now.” He put the carton back into his pocket and approached the horses, his hand extended. The nearest one was standing on three legs now. It appeared to be asleep. Its eyelid drooped over the cerulean eye; its head was shaped like an ironingboard. Without even raising the eyelid it flicked its head, the yellow teeth cropped. For an instant it and the man appeared to be inextricable in one violence. Then they became motionless, the stranger’s high heels dug into the earth, one hand gripping the animal’s nostrils, holding the horse’s head wrenched half around while it breathed in hoarse, smothered groans. “See?” the stranger said in a panting voice, the veins standing white and rigid in his neck and along his jaw. “See? All you got to do is handle them a little and work hell out of them for a couple of days. Now look out. Give me room back there.” They gave back a little. The stranger gathered- himself then sprang away. As he did so, a second horse slashed at his back, severing his vest from collar to hem down the back exactly as the trick swordsman severs a floating veil with one stroke.
    “Sho now,” Quick said. “But suppose a man don’t happen to own a vest.”

  428. My experience with large animals is as close to zero as one could get, but lots of reading about how police use horses for crowd control, armies used cavalry and, not least of all, Faulkner’s Spotted Horses has me feel like I’m glad I live in an age where one’s worth isn’t measured by how well they get along with large animals.
    “Them’s good, gentle ponies,” the stranger said. “Watch now.” He put the carton back into his pocket and approached the horses, his hand extended. The nearest one was standing on three legs now. It appeared to be asleep. Its eyelid drooped over the cerulean eye; its head was shaped like an ironingboard. Without even raising the eyelid it flicked its head, the yellow teeth cropped. For an instant it and the man appeared to be inextricable in one violence. Then they became motionless, the stranger’s high heels dug into the earth, one hand gripping the animal’s nostrils, holding the horse’s head wrenched half around while it breathed in hoarse, smothered groans. “See?” the stranger said in a panting voice, the veins standing white and rigid in his neck and along his jaw. “See? All you got to do is handle them a little and work hell out of them for a couple of days. Now look out. Give me room back there.” They gave back a little. The stranger gathered- himself then sprang away. As he did so, a second horse slashed at his back, severing his vest from collar to hem down the back exactly as the trick swordsman severs a floating veil with one stroke.
    “Sho now,” Quick said. “But suppose a man don’t happen to own a vest.”

  429. You cowgirls and cowboys done had enough comparin’ yer fancy duds yet? Them doggies are restless. There’s a stampede amountin, and when they go, there’s nuthin to stop em till they hit the Pecos.
    Behind a paywall, but like I said t’other mornin, they’s a goin after female Democratic politicians now who we thought might geld the rascals and put our brand on this here open prairie. We got ourselves a range war and you ole timers who were around when we chased the Comanche and their women up and down every danged arroyo in West Texas in the last one got a little taste of how bad thisun’s gonna be:
    Saddle up! We ride at daybreak:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/15/us/andrea-ramsey-harassment.html?mtrref=disq.us&gwh=CEC4938A7DCEF021498A39CAD9B44DBB&gwt=pay
    Thomas McGuane’s book of essays “Some Horses” is some wonderful prose, should you run across it.

  430. You cowgirls and cowboys done had enough comparin’ yer fancy duds yet? Them doggies are restless. There’s a stampede amountin, and when they go, there’s nuthin to stop em till they hit the Pecos.
    Behind a paywall, but like I said t’other mornin, they’s a goin after female Democratic politicians now who we thought might geld the rascals and put our brand on this here open prairie. We got ourselves a range war and you ole timers who were around when we chased the Comanche and their women up and down every danged arroyo in West Texas in the last one got a little taste of how bad thisun’s gonna be:
    Saddle up! We ride at daybreak:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/15/us/andrea-ramsey-harassment.html?mtrref=disq.us&gwh=CEC4938A7DCEF021498A39CAD9B44DBB&gwt=pay
    Thomas McGuane’s book of essays “Some Horses” is some wonderful prose, should you run across it.

  431. Large animals?
    On a trip to Tanzania I got to fool around with a couple of elephants. These are large animals.
    We were warned to be careful, because if an elephant turns its head and unintentionally hits you with the side of its tusk you may end up with a cracked rib.
    I know, charismatic megafauna, etc. But those creatures are amazing, fascinating, and much more intelligent than we realize. The average elephant is, IMO, smarter than the average Republican congressman.
    I wish people would stop killing them.

  432. Large animals?
    On a trip to Tanzania I got to fool around with a couple of elephants. These are large animals.
    We were warned to be careful, because if an elephant turns its head and unintentionally hits you with the side of its tusk you may end up with a cracked rib.
    I know, charismatic megafauna, etc. But those creatures are amazing, fascinating, and much more intelligent than we realize. The average elephant is, IMO, smarter than the average Republican congressman.
    I wish people would stop killing them.

  433. I wish people would stop killing them.
    Me too. With all my heart.
    lj, that was lovely, thanks. My grandmother lived in her early days with horses as her mode of transportation to go to town and obtain things needed for the household. She told stories of the horse running away, and having to chase and catch it. I can’t really imagine having small children and needing to go through all of that to survive.
    I so often feel that we are squandering the luxury we have in our lifetimes to admire, befriend and protect animals, even when they are not essential to our survival.

  434. I wish people would stop killing them.
    Me too. With all my heart.
    lj, that was lovely, thanks. My grandmother lived in her early days with horses as her mode of transportation to go to town and obtain things needed for the household. She told stories of the horse running away, and having to chase and catch it. I can’t really imagine having small children and needing to go through all of that to survive.
    I so often feel that we are squandering the luxury we have in our lifetimes to admire, befriend and protect animals, even when they are not essential to our survival.

  437. I once did a back of the envelope calculation and figured that the total biomass of people and draft animals in the US today is about the same as it was 100 years ago.

  438. I once did a back of the envelope calculation and figured that the total biomass of people and draft animals in the US today is about the same as it was 100 years ago.

  439. In much of their habitat, elephants suffer from a tragedy of the commons effect.
    in pretty much all of their habitat, elephants suffer from an “@ssholes shooting them” effect.
    the layman’s term for “tragedy of the commons” is “there go those selfish idiots again”.
    it’s not some regrettable but inevitable economic law. it’s people being stupid greedy jerks.
    there’s a remedy. it’s called “jail”.

  440. In much of their habitat, elephants suffer from a tragedy of the commons effect.
    in pretty much all of their habitat, elephants suffer from an “@ssholes shooting them” effect.
    the layman’s term for “tragedy of the commons” is “there go those selfish idiots again”.
    it’s not some regrettable but inevitable economic law. it’s people being stupid greedy jerks.
    there’s a remedy. it’s called “jail”.

  445. As so often in economics, the solution isn’t on the supply side, but on the demand side. Cut out the lowlifes demanding ivory, and the slaughter of elephants drops dramatically. (Ditto for rhinos.)
    Yeah, there would still be the guys my Mom used to refer to caustically as “mighty hunters.” But they, at least, would mostly be dissuaded by the example of a couple of their number doing (highly publicized) 40 year sentences in an African prison.

  446. As so often in economics, the solution isn’t on the supply side, but on the demand side. Cut out the lowlifes demanding ivory, and the slaughter of elephants drops dramatically. (Ditto for rhinos.)
    Yeah, there would still be the guys my Mom used to refer to caustically as “mighty hunters.” But they, at least, would mostly be dissuaded by the example of a couple of their number doing (highly publicized) 40 year sentences in an African prison.

  449. Stossel seems to make no distinction between farming rhinos for their horns and selling fake horns.
    Selling fake horns seems good! Until people who want real horns aren’t happy with the deception. Farming rhinos for their horns ends up meaning cruel factory farms, and ignoring the ecosystem around the problem of rhino haitat. Maybe we need to be teaching people to value rhinos, not their horns.
    I agree the issue is complicated, but farming rhinos isn’t necessarily the humane solution.
    How about the fact that vulnerable indigenous people are being murdered? The market doesn’t solve everything.

  450. Stossel seems to make no distinction between farming rhinos for their horns and selling fake horns.
    Selling fake horns seems good! Until people who want real horns aren’t happy with the deception. Farming rhinos for their horns ends up meaning cruel factory farms, and ignoring the ecosystem around the problem of rhino haitat. Maybe we need to be teaching people to value rhinos, not their horns.
    I agree the issue is complicated, but farming rhinos isn’t necessarily the humane solution.
    How about the fact that vulnerable indigenous people are being murdered? The market doesn’t solve everything.

  451. wj: As so often in economicspolitics, the solution isn’t on the supply side, but on the demand side.
    Not so much FTFY as “Stole Your Meme For My Own Purposes”–SYMFMOP.
    The popular demand for blatant lies is what stimulates lying liars like He, Trump to supply lies such as His assertion that the GOP feed-the-rich tax “reform” will cost Him, personally, money.
    There’s no way to stop He, Trump and his toadies from supplying blatant lies as long as “white working class” racist theocrats (women as well as men) demand more and more blatant lies to consume.
    My sole consolation, in light of all recent developments, is this: in our current Age of Celebrity, wherein being famous is practically a guarantee of a large income, the GOP tax cuts are likely to unleash ex-Senator Al Franken’s creative energy.
    (For those of you who missed it, I allude to the passage from 8:20 to about 8:45 in Al Franken’s 1996 White House Correspondents Dinner speech.)
    I have long believed that laughter and contempt are about the only weapons that can make a dent in the adamantine stupidity of devoted consumers of lies. Polite reasoning may persuade them in the long run, but you know what they say about the long run.
    –TP

  452. wj: As so often in economicspolitics, the solution isn’t on the supply side, but on the demand side.
    Not so much FTFY as “Stole Your Meme For My Own Purposes”–SYMFMOP.
    The popular demand for blatant lies is what stimulates lying liars like He, Trump to supply lies such as His assertion that the GOP feed-the-rich tax “reform” will cost Him, personally, money.
    There’s no way to stop He, Trump and his toadies from supplying blatant lies as long as “white working class” racist theocrats (women as well as men) demand more and more blatant lies to consume.
    My sole consolation, in light of all recent developments, is this: in our current Age of Celebrity, wherein being famous is practically a guarantee of a large income, the GOP tax cuts are likely to unleash ex-Senator Al Franken’s creative energy.
    (For those of you who missed it, I allude to the passage from 8:20 to about 8:45 in Al Franken’s 1996 White House Correspondents Dinner speech.)
    I have long believed that laughter and contempt are about the only weapons that can make a dent in the adamantine stupidity of devoted consumers of lies. Polite reasoning may persuade them in the long run, but you know what they say about the long run.
    –TP

  453. Seven words banned by rump and his stalinist murderous buttlickers, kind of a bizarro Carlin effect:
    http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/
    The conservative movement, with its conservative principles spreading throughout your dead fucking government, has no idea of the hatred and the vengeance coming at you.
    You are filth. You are scum. You are traitors.
    Fuck laughter and contempt at these vermin.
    They didn’t ban the word “disease” yet.
    That word describes them.
    Inoculate. Irradiate.
    Fuck you, republicans.
    It’s my country.
    Get the fuck out of it, or else.

  454. Seven words banned by rump and his stalinist murderous buttlickers, kind of a bizarro Carlin effect:
    http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/
    The conservative movement, with its conservative principles spreading throughout your dead fucking government, has no idea of the hatred and the vengeance coming at you.
    You are filth. You are scum. You are traitors.
    Fuck laughter and contempt at these vermin.
    They didn’t ban the word “disease” yet.
    That word describes them.
    Inoculate. Irradiate.
    Fuck you, republicans.
    It’s my country.
    Get the fuck out of it, or else.

  455. Two things happened yesterday:
    Little kids, not too far removed from fetus-hood but (far enough for republican vermin to consider them worthy of bullet wounds) which besides being incorporated, is one of two characteristics you’ll want to have in America to be considered a fully-developed human being, were gunned down in cold-blood at Sandy Hook.
    And, in commemoration, the accessories to mass murder, subhuman NRA leaders, were feted at the rump White House.
    Putin congratulated rump for the coincidence.
    The equities of gun makers rose in price on Wall Street in fond remembrance.

  456. Two things happened yesterday:
    Little kids, not too far removed from fetus-hood but (far enough for republican vermin to consider them worthy of bullet wounds) which besides being incorporated, is one of two characteristics you’ll want to have in America to be considered a fully-developed human being, were gunned down in cold-blood at Sandy Hook.
    And, in commemoration, the accessories to mass murder, subhuman NRA leaders, were feted at the rump White House.
    Putin congratulated rump for the coincidence.
    The equities of gun makers rose in price on Wall Street in fond remembrance.

  459. Mueller will be fired
    let’s hope not. but, it’s not unlikely.
    I don’t really know what happens then. when Nixon pulled that crap, there was pushback, even from his own party.
    I don’t see that happening now.

  460. Mueller will be fired
    let’s hope not. but, it’s not unlikely.
    I don’t really know what happens then. when Nixon pulled that crap, there was pushback, even from his own party.
    I don’t see that happening now.

  465. Plan to.
    In whatever city I’m in when the hammer drops.
    It’s a shame this rogue government won’t have the respect for the American people to send tanks.

  466. Plan to.
    In whatever city I’m in when the hammer drops.
    It’s a shame this rogue government won’t have the respect for the American people to send tanks.

  467. The line of questioning for the judicial appointee and his ignorance cited above by pollo reminds me of this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx5d3haRG7M
    It was funny once upon a time.
    Every single attorney who has commented here in OBWI’s history, and Marty, are more qualified.
    In the junta and provisional government that overthrows this government, I’ll be appointed to a Judgeship.
    I aim to earn myself a reputation as a hanging judge.
    We’ll seat a jury but they’ll just be wallpaper.

  468. The line of questioning for the judicial appointee and his ignorance cited above by pollo reminds me of this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx5d3haRG7M
    It was funny once upon a time.
    Every single attorney who has commented here in OBWI’s history, and Marty, are more qualified.
    In the junta and provisional government that overthrows this government, I’ll be appointed to a Judgeship.
    I aim to earn myself a reputation as a hanging judge.
    We’ll seat a jury but they’ll just be wallpaper.

  471. Donald — As the linked article says, the for-profit providers will fight it viciously, and in this political climate, well, good luck. But while we tackle that project, let’s make the mobile phone system a public utility as well. Right now it’s just another way to make money flow from people who have less to people who already have more.

  472. Donald — As the linked article says, the for-profit providers will fight it viciously, and in this political climate, well, good luck. But while we tackle that project, let’s make the mobile phone system a public utility as well. Right now it’s just another way to make money flow from people who have less to people who already have more.

  473. not seeing how local broadband helps much. paving all the streets in your town makes for nice local driving, but it doesn’t do anything about the fact that the highways in and out of your town can now charge based on where the traffic originates / what the trucks are carrying.

  474. not seeing how local broadband helps much. paving all the streets in your town makes for nice local driving, but it doesn’t do anything about the fact that the highways in and out of your town can now charge based on where the traffic originates / what the trucks are carrying.

  475. If enough localities did it, maybe they’d have some collective clout to use in bargaining for access/price.
    But that’s not what i’d really like to see.
    Regulate it. Nationalize it. Put it in the pipeline right along single payer health care.
    Find some way or other to stop this: it’s just another way to make money flow from people who have less to people who already have more.
    That’s the hallmark of our era, which I don’t expect to see the end of in my lifetime. It would be nice to be wrong about that.
    That picture I linked to the other day, the Brandenburg Gate in 1939 vs now, did make me cry. But the tears were partly for the 60,000,000 people (depending on which phases you count) who had to die so we that could have the menorah there in 2017.

  476. If enough localities did it, maybe they’d have some collective clout to use in bargaining for access/price.
    But that’s not what i’d really like to see.
    Regulate it. Nationalize it. Put it in the pipeline right along single payer health care.
    Find some way or other to stop this: it’s just another way to make money flow from people who have less to people who already have more.
    That’s the hallmark of our era, which I don’t expect to see the end of in my lifetime. It would be nice to be wrong about that.
    That picture I linked to the other day, the Brandenburg Gate in 1939 vs now, did make me cry. But the tears were partly for the 60,000,000 people (depending on which phases you count) who had to die so we that could have the menorah there in 2017.

  477. Cleek— I wondered about that, but don’t know enough. But part of the idea for me would be precisely to start a vicious fight with the for profit providers that JanieM mentions.. Let people see who is on the side of cheaper internet access.
    I barely use my cell phone. Maybe once a year if I am on a trip without my wife, so that issue didn’t even occur to me. But yes, include that too.

  478. Cleek— I wondered about that, but don’t know enough. But part of the idea for me would be precisely to start a vicious fight with the for profit providers that JanieM mentions.. Let people see who is on the side of cheaper internet access.
    I barely use my cell phone. Maybe once a year if I am on a trip without my wife, so that issue didn’t even occur to me. But yes, include that too.

  479. set up municipal internet service providers.
    Chattanooga somewhat famously did this a while ago. comcast and verizon weren’t interested, not enough $$$ in it, so the city did it themselves. then comcast and verizon sued the, repeatedly. last I heard Chattanooga prevailed. it”s been good for the city.
    at this point so much of the economy and general public infrastructure relies on connectivity that it should be treated as a utility. connectivity per se does not lend itself to “market solutions” any more than water and sewer do.

  480. set up municipal internet service providers.
    Chattanooga somewhat famously did this a while ago. comcast and verizon weren’t interested, not enough $$$ in it, so the city did it themselves. then comcast and verizon sued the, repeatedly. last I heard Chattanooga prevailed. it”s been good for the city.
    at this point so much of the economy and general public infrastructure relies on connectivity that it should be treated as a utility. connectivity per se does not lend itself to “market solutions” any more than water and sewer do.

  481. the most monstrous espionage ever carried out
    i’ve been pondering the use of the term “espionage” here.
    the stuff that we are seeing either alleged or demonstrated by Trump and his circle do not IMO rise to the level of espionage. they are garden variety grift.
    i’ll do something for you, then you do something for me. and once you do something for me, I own you, because what you did for me is not something you ought to have done.
    oldest con in the world.

  482. the most monstrous espionage ever carried out
    i’ve been pondering the use of the term “espionage” here.
    the stuff that we are seeing either alleged or demonstrated by Trump and his circle do not IMO rise to the level of espionage. they are garden variety grift.
    i’ll do something for you, then you do something for me. and once you do something for me, I own you, because what you did for me is not something you ought to have done.
    oldest con in the world.

  483. “connectivity per se does not lend itself to “market solutions” any more than water and sewer do.”
    The last milers are a perfect example of the market at work. Thousands of public private agreements to ensure they would invest in providing connectivity that worked perfectly. Until people decided that now the investment was done they shouldn’t have to pay for it.
    Is there really anything you think SHOULD be a free market business?
    Public WiFi won’t be free, just hidden in your tax increases, probably property taxes.

  484. “connectivity per se does not lend itself to “market solutions” any more than water and sewer do.”
    The last milers are a perfect example of the market at work. Thousands of public private agreements to ensure they would invest in providing connectivity that worked perfectly. Until people decided that now the investment was done they shouldn’t have to pay for it.
    Is there really anything you think SHOULD be a free market business?
    Public WiFi won’t be free, just hidden in your tax increases, probably property taxes.

  485. Our revered Founders considered mail important enough to make it a public service.
    US Constitution, Article I, Section 8: The Congress shall have Power to … establish Post Offices and post Roads …
    I want the USPS to provide broadband web access to everybody, because I think the Founders got it right.
    –TP

  486. Our revered Founders considered mail important enough to make it a public service.
    US Constitution, Article I, Section 8: The Congress shall have Power to … establish Post Offices and post Roads …
    I want the USPS to provide broadband web access to everybody, because I think the Founders got it right.
    –TP

  487. just hidden in your tax increases
    I do not consider things paid for by my taxes to be “hidden.” They’re a lot less hidden than the things that corporations do with the money they get from me.

  488. just hidden in your tax increases
    I do not consider things paid for by my taxes to be “hidden.” They’re a lot less hidden than the things that corporations do with the money they get from me.

  495. “i’ve been pondering the use of the term “espionage” here.”
    “garden variety grift”
    Perhaps with rump and company, it’s big time grift. I don’t think they are clever enough for espionage. They are low quality people.
    The Russians, and perhaps other players, however, have bigger things in mind than the pretty good ziti at the rump joint they own behind the scenes.

  496. “i’ve been pondering the use of the term “espionage” here.”
    “garden variety grift”
    Perhaps with rump and company, it’s big time grift. I don’t think they are clever enough for espionage. They are low quality people.
    The Russians, and perhaps other players, however, have bigger things in mind than the pretty good ziti at the rump joint they own behind the scenes.

  497. so much of the economy and general public infrastructure relies on connectivity that it should be treated as a utility. 
    Exactly!
    Of course, you would still have arguments from those with a philosophical/ideological objection to the whole concept of public utilities. …

  498. so much of the economy and general public infrastructure relies on connectivity that it should be treated as a utility. 
    Exactly!
    Of course, you would still have arguments from those with a philosophical/ideological objection to the whole concept of public utilities. …

  499. You and people much, much richer than you.
    Good luck with that.
    Perhaps I should start voting with Bitcoin…

  500. You and people much, much richer than you.
    Good luck with that.
    Perhaps I should start voting with Bitcoin…

  501. not seeing how local broadband helps much. paving all the streets in your town makes for nice local driving, but it doesn’t do anything about the fact that the highways in and out of your town can now charge based on where the traffic originates / what the trucks are carrying.
    Your “highway” will (unless you’re a huge municipality) be physical fiber leased from a common carrier and, more importantly, transit service leased from a Tier 2 network. There are lots of Tier 2 networks. They compete on the basis of port pricing, low latency, and rich connectivity to other backbone providers. Their whole business model is based on moving the end users’ packets as quickly and transparently as possible. Grossly oversimplifying, because peering is an insane subject, if one of them were to try to screw you (the municipality) over by threatening to shape your inbound/outbound traffic without your permission, there’s a bunch of other Tier 2 companies eager to do business with you.

  502. not seeing how local broadband helps much. paving all the streets in your town makes for nice local driving, but it doesn’t do anything about the fact that the highways in and out of your town can now charge based on where the traffic originates / what the trucks are carrying.
    Your “highway” will (unless you’re a huge municipality) be physical fiber leased from a common carrier and, more importantly, transit service leased from a Tier 2 network. There are lots of Tier 2 networks. They compete on the basis of port pricing, low latency, and rich connectivity to other backbone providers. Their whole business model is based on moving the end users’ packets as quickly and transparently as possible. Grossly oversimplifying, because peering is an insane subject, if one of them were to try to screw you (the municipality) over by threatening to shape your inbound/outbound traffic without your permission, there’s a bunch of other Tier 2 companies eager to do business with you.

  503. US Constitution, Article I, Section 8: The Congress shall have Power to … establish Post Offices and post Roads …
    Great observation. I hope that one of these days, we have a Congress that represents the people, and we can implore them to use that power as you’ve suggested.

  504. US Constitution, Article I, Section 8: The Congress shall have Power to … establish Post Offices and post Roads …
    Great observation. I hope that one of these days, we have a Congress that represents the people, and we can implore them to use that power as you’ve suggested.

  505. PITCH: The most powerful nation in the world has a 2-party system, but one party is a deathcult run by the wealthiest 0.01% which uses xenophobia and propaganda to manipulate a morally corrupt 47% majority caste base via a gerrymandered apartheid voting system.
    (stolen from someone on the twitter)

  506. PITCH: The most powerful nation in the world has a 2-party system, but one party is a deathcult run by the wealthiest 0.01% which uses xenophobia and propaganda to manipulate a morally corrupt 47% majority caste base via a gerrymandered apartheid voting system.
    (stolen from someone on the twitter)

  509. I hope that one of these days, we have a Congress that represents the people, and we can implore them to use that power as you’ve suggested.
    From memory, so suspect, but I seem to recall that a couple of Post Office cases made it to the early Supreme Court. One to decide whether “Post Office” included an actual postal delivery service, and one over whether “post Roads” included sending mail by ship over the open seas.

  510. I hope that one of these days, we have a Congress that represents the people, and we can implore them to use that power as you’ve suggested.
    From memory, so suspect, but I seem to recall that a couple of Post Office cases made it to the early Supreme Court. One to decide whether “Post Office” included an actual postal delivery service, and one over whether “post Roads” included sending mail by ship over the open seas.

  511. I haven’t mailed anything in years. About the only time I get anything in the mail I want, it’s a package that FedEx or UPS dropped at the Post Office instead of my door.

  512. I haven’t mailed anything in years. About the only time I get anything in the mail I want, it’s a package that FedEx or UPS dropped at the Post Office instead of my door.

  513. I haven’t mailed anything in years. About the only time I get anything in the mail I want, it’s a package that FedEx or UPS dropped at the Post Office instead of my door.
    We must have different friends.

  514. I haven’t mailed anything in years. About the only time I get anything in the mail I want, it’s a package that FedEx or UPS dropped at the Post Office instead of my door.
    We must have different friends.

  515. The last milers are a perfect example of the market at work
    off the top of your head, can you tell me what the conditions for an efficient market are?
    can you tell me how many of them apply to broadband connectivity?
    also, wifi, refers to wireless. if there’s a wire connecting to your house, that isn’t what we’re talking about.
    and i would be happy to fund internet access as a utility via taxes or other utility fees. that’s how i get water, sewer, gas, electricity, trash pickup, and public transportation and highways. i’m more than happy with the level of service i get from all of those things, and i’m more than happy with what i pay for them.
    I prefer to vote with my dollars.
    i prefer to vote with my vote. with dollars, i prefer to buy.
    the failure to distinguish between those two things are going to kill this country.
    and not for nothing, but the number of places where you get to “vote with your dollars” when it comes to broadband access are vanishingly small. if you have a choice of two providers, that’s a very big deal.
    I don’t think they are clever enough for espionage.
    yeah, that’s pretty much what i’m saying.
    they’re in it for the rugs.

  516. The last milers are a perfect example of the market at work
    off the top of your head, can you tell me what the conditions for an efficient market are?
    can you tell me how many of them apply to broadband connectivity?
    also, wifi, refers to wireless. if there’s a wire connecting to your house, that isn’t what we’re talking about.
    and i would be happy to fund internet access as a utility via taxes or other utility fees. that’s how i get water, sewer, gas, electricity, trash pickup, and public transportation and highways. i’m more than happy with the level of service i get from all of those things, and i’m more than happy with what i pay for them.
    I prefer to vote with my dollars.
    i prefer to vote with my vote. with dollars, i prefer to buy.
    the failure to distinguish between those two things are going to kill this country.
    and not for nothing, but the number of places where you get to “vote with your dollars” when it comes to broadband access are vanishingly small. if you have a choice of two providers, that’s a very big deal.
    I don’t think they are clever enough for espionage.
    yeah, that’s pretty much what i’m saying.
    they’re in it for the rugs.

  517. CharlesWT: I haven’t mailed anything in years.
    Sort of makes my point. “Mail” is different from what it was 250 years ago, just like “arms”, just like “the press”. Are you an originalist or a literalist?
    –TP

  518. CharlesWT: I haven’t mailed anything in years.
    Sort of makes my point. “Mail” is different from what it was 250 years ago, just like “arms”, just like “the press”. Are you an originalist or a literalist?
    –TP

  519. “also, wifi, refers to wireless. if there’s a wire connecting to your house, that isn’t what we’re talking about.”
    Well of course it is. Since almost everybody gets their WiFi from a router attached to a wire(that’s actual everybody), mostly in a house, someone’s house, or business. Selling connectivity is what they do. Why should the government take that over?

  520. “also, wifi, refers to wireless. if there’s a wire connecting to your house, that isn’t what we’re talking about.”
    Well of course it is. Since almost everybody gets their WiFi from a router attached to a wire(that’s actual everybody), mostly in a house, someone’s house, or business. Selling connectivity is what they do. Why should the government take that over?

  521. I prefer to vote with my dollars.
    I have one vote. I have many dollars. Lots of people have less. A few people have MANY MANY MORE.
    Doesn’t strike me as a fair or democratic election, but it’s what some people want, I guess.

  522. I prefer to vote with my dollars.
    I have one vote. I have many dollars. Lots of people have less. A few people have MANY MANY MORE.
    Doesn’t strike me as a fair or democratic election, but it’s what some people want, I guess.

  523. Why not a compromise: The number of your allowed votes is the decadic logarithm of the number of dollars you pay. That’s a poll tax I could get behind. 😉

  524. Why not a compromise: The number of your allowed votes is the decadic logarithm of the number of dollars you pay. That’s a poll tax I could get behind. 😉

  525. “Why should the government take that over?”
    Because it is a natural monopoly and with the end of net neutrality we don’t trust the private companies to behave.

  526. “Why should the government take that over?”
    Because it is a natural monopoly and with the end of net neutrality we don’t trust the private companies to behave.

  529. Why should the government take that over?
    First of all, the government has already “taken it over”. In some cases municipalities provide connectivity as a public service, in others (and overwhelmingly most) connectivity is provided by a private entity under contract with the municipality, i.e. the government. The municipality is responsible for negotiating and enforcing SLAs and other terms of service.
    Lots of services that are provided broadly to the public are implemented this way. In my area, trash pickup, electricity, and gas are commonly managed this way.
    The issue about WiFi is that the service that is provided is, specifically, a hard-wired connection to the in-house router. How you consume the connectivity within your home or business is your affair. The reason that point is relevant is because the hard-wired connection represents a large capital expenditure, both up-front and for maintenance, and that is what gives the private providers their (justifiable) leverage in negotiations.
    The question on the table was not whether government should “take over” broadband, or whether people want it “for free”. The question on the table is about the rollback of the net neutrality regulations.
    Much more specifically, the question is whether ISPs should be treated as common carriers, the way we treat things like electricity or phone service, as opposed to treating them as providers of a commodity service.
    My argument is that, given the degree to which broadband connectivity has become fundamental to the overall economy and basic daily life, they should be treated as a utility.
    Basically, the ISPs now have their cake and eat it too. They occupy a privileged position as monopolistic or near-monopolistic providers of an essential service, but they are also free to make back-end deals as they wish, back-end deals which will affect the availability and quality of service to end users who have few or no other options.
    That seems F’d up to me. And it is most definitely not, in any imaginable way, a “market based” situation. It is the opposite.
    As far as US domestic broadband “working perfectly”, it does not. It works pretty well, and no more than that. And, as always seems to be the case in situations like this, many of our dreaded democratic socialist peers do better, in terms of both availability and performance.
    We don’t do things the same way they do, so we get what we get.
    Lastly, in the particular case I cited, the city of Chattanooga decided to provide broadband through the dreaded “government taking it over” route because no ISPs would provide the service. Not enough money in it for them.
    See also the two paragraphs immediately preceding the last one.

  530. Why should the government take that over?
    First of all, the government has already “taken it over”. In some cases municipalities provide connectivity as a public service, in others (and overwhelmingly most) connectivity is provided by a private entity under contract with the municipality, i.e. the government. The municipality is responsible for negotiating and enforcing SLAs and other terms of service.
    Lots of services that are provided broadly to the public are implemented this way. In my area, trash pickup, electricity, and gas are commonly managed this way.
    The issue about WiFi is that the service that is provided is, specifically, a hard-wired connection to the in-house router. How you consume the connectivity within your home or business is your affair. The reason that point is relevant is because the hard-wired connection represents a large capital expenditure, both up-front and for maintenance, and that is what gives the private providers their (justifiable) leverage in negotiations.
    The question on the table was not whether government should “take over” broadband, or whether people want it “for free”. The question on the table is about the rollback of the net neutrality regulations.
    Much more specifically, the question is whether ISPs should be treated as common carriers, the way we treat things like electricity or phone service, as opposed to treating them as providers of a commodity service.
    My argument is that, given the degree to which broadband connectivity has become fundamental to the overall economy and basic daily life, they should be treated as a utility.
    Basically, the ISPs now have their cake and eat it too. They occupy a privileged position as monopolistic or near-monopolistic providers of an essential service, but they are also free to make back-end deals as they wish, back-end deals which will affect the availability and quality of service to end users who have few or no other options.
    That seems F’d up to me. And it is most definitely not, in any imaginable way, a “market based” situation. It is the opposite.
    As far as US domestic broadband “working perfectly”, it does not. It works pretty well, and no more than that. And, as always seems to be the case in situations like this, many of our dreaded democratic socialist peers do better, in terms of both availability and performance.
    We don’t do things the same way they do, so we get what we get.
    Lastly, in the particular case I cited, the city of Chattanooga decided to provide broadband through the dreaded “government taking it over” route because no ISPs would provide the service. Not enough money in it for them.
    See also the two paragraphs immediately preceding the last one.

  533. Related to Chattanooga (and I’m a fan of municipal fiber networks)…
    No city has managed it unless they already had a municipal electric power utility. There are multiple reasons for that. First, a large part of the cost of the initial fiber backbone gets picked up by the electric utility, who uses their subset of the fibers to monitor and control their network. Second, it provides the city with the experience (and gear) to manage the outside plant. Google Fiber has been unpleasantly surprised to discover just how much money it takes to start from scratch.
    Comcast offers all of its standard services and shows no signs of pulling out of the city. There is some evidence that Comcast is able to use their integrated Tier 1 and regional network status to provide faster access to the non-local internet than EPB. High-speed data service is more than just local access — in real measurements, relatively few end users need more local bandwidth than provided by full-duplex switched 10 Mbps Ethernet.
    Chattanooga’s high-speed data service is not available everywhere in the city, or to every customer even in areas that they serve. Older high-density apartment situations are a notoriously difficult “last 100 feet” problem. Chattanooga is looking at wifi to serve customers that can’t get fiber access, which will be a vastly inferior service.

  534. Related to Chattanooga (and I’m a fan of municipal fiber networks)…
    No city has managed it unless they already had a municipal electric power utility. There are multiple reasons for that. First, a large part of the cost of the initial fiber backbone gets picked up by the electric utility, who uses their subset of the fibers to monitor and control their network. Second, it provides the city with the experience (and gear) to manage the outside plant. Google Fiber has been unpleasantly surprised to discover just how much money it takes to start from scratch.
    Comcast offers all of its standard services and shows no signs of pulling out of the city. There is some evidence that Comcast is able to use their integrated Tier 1 and regional network status to provide faster access to the non-local internet than EPB. High-speed data service is more than just local access — in real measurements, relatively few end users need more local bandwidth than provided by full-duplex switched 10 Mbps Ethernet.
    Chattanooga’s high-speed data service is not available everywhere in the city, or to every customer even in areas that they serve. Older high-density apartment situations are a notoriously difficult “last 100 feet” problem. Chattanooga is looking at wifi to serve customers that can’t get fiber access, which will be a vastly inferior service.

  535. “More about criminalizing presence at a demonstration where others riot.”
    So Putin’s conservative principles and methods are spreading throughout the Justice Department and American (cough) jurisprudence.
    Good, I hope the government wins this one, just as I hope Hillary Clinton goes to jail under rump’s totalitarian rule.
    One day, this ruling can be used as precedent for prosecuting the murders of 57 Americans and the wounding of 500 to 600 others in Las Vegas. The NRA and guns rights conservatives were just as present in that hotel room and equally culpable in those killings with the late killer.
    They sold him the fucking weapons and ammo.
    Just so, net neutrality is merely a big government-imposed limitation, using the private sector, where the First Amendment goes to die, to do its dirty work in keeping with native conservative American principled assholishness, on universal access to First Amendment highways and byways.
    Last time I looked, Obsidian Wings is not available via Google in China.
    It may not be here either in a couple of years, unless Marty is permitted to edit the content so republican party gummint is more favorably dispised to it.
    That last word should be “disposed”, but leave it
    Conservatives and libertarians view universal access to anything … voting, free speech, prostate surgery .. strictly as a matter of dollars.
    We need some fake Indians spilling barrels of modems into Boston Harbor to protest this FCC “decision”.
    Then Sessions can prosecute everyone in Boston for being “present” at the crime.
    “Basically, the ISPs now have their cake and eat it too.”
    Even gay ISPs who want to merge.
    Be a fetus or a corporation in America if you want full rights. Merely being an individual born human is not worth the trouble.
    What a full of shit country we’ve got going here.

  536. “More about criminalizing presence at a demonstration where others riot.”
    So Putin’s conservative principles and methods are spreading throughout the Justice Department and American (cough) jurisprudence.
    Good, I hope the government wins this one, just as I hope Hillary Clinton goes to jail under rump’s totalitarian rule.
    One day, this ruling can be used as precedent for prosecuting the murders of 57 Americans and the wounding of 500 to 600 others in Las Vegas. The NRA and guns rights conservatives were just as present in that hotel room and equally culpable in those killings with the late killer.
    They sold him the fucking weapons and ammo.
    Just so, net neutrality is merely a big government-imposed limitation, using the private sector, where the First Amendment goes to die, to do its dirty work in keeping with native conservative American principled assholishness, on universal access to First Amendment highways and byways.
    Last time I looked, Obsidian Wings is not available via Google in China.
    It may not be here either in a couple of years, unless Marty is permitted to edit the content so republican party gummint is more favorably dispised to it.
    That last word should be “disposed”, but leave it
    Conservatives and libertarians view universal access to anything … voting, free speech, prostate surgery .. strictly as a matter of dollars.
    We need some fake Indians spilling barrels of modems into Boston Harbor to protest this FCC “decision”.
    Then Sessions can prosecute everyone in Boston for being “present” at the crime.
    “Basically, the ISPs now have their cake and eat it too.”
    Even gay ISPs who want to merge.
    Be a fetus or a corporation in America if you want full rights. Merely being an individual born human is not worth the trouble.
    What a full of shit country we’ve got going here.

  537. http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/doug-jones-we-need-to-move-on-from-trump-misconduct-allegations-to-real-issues
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/mnuchin-mueller-probe-distraction-we-must-get-past
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/cornyn-mueller-russia-probe-doubt-legitimacy
    In the first instance, fuck Doug Jones … already.
    I guess having a dick in this country makes one a dick, though certainly Ann Coulter has found a way past that requirement.
    In the second two instances, all the more reason for the rump justice department to win their case against innocent demonstrators as soon as possible, because they will have to arrest EVERYONE, dicks or not, if Mueller, a conservative republican, is fired and the investigations halted.

  538. http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/doug-jones-we-need-to-move-on-from-trump-misconduct-allegations-to-real-issues
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/mnuchin-mueller-probe-distraction-we-must-get-past
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/cornyn-mueller-russia-probe-doubt-legitimacy
    In the first instance, fuck Doug Jones … already.
    I guess having a dick in this country makes one a dick, though certainly Ann Coulter has found a way past that requirement.
    In the second two instances, all the more reason for the rump justice department to win their case against innocent demonstrators as soon as possible, because they will have to arrest EVERYONE, dicks or not, if Mueller, a conservative republican, is fired and the investigations halted.

  539. Conservatives and libertarians view universal access to anything … voting, free speech, prostate surgery .. strictly as a matter of dollars.
    that is my impression as well

  540. Conservatives and libertarians view universal access to anything … voting, free speech, prostate surgery .. strictly as a matter of dollars.
    that is my impression as well

  541. Conservatives and libertarians view universal access to anything … voting, free speech, prostate surgery .. strictly as a matter of dollars.
    Count, last I looked it isn’t illegal to print (counterfeit) Confederate dollars. (As long as you don’t try to sell them claiming that they are antiquities printed by the Confederacy, of course.) Do you suppose that those would be acceptable…?

  542. Conservatives and libertarians view universal access to anything … voting, free speech, prostate surgery .. strictly as a matter of dollars.
    Count, last I looked it isn’t illegal to print (counterfeit) Confederate dollars. (As long as you don’t try to sell them claiming that they are antiquities printed by the Confederacy, of course.) Do you suppose that those would be acceptable…?

  543. The point is that monopoly or near-monopoly markets do not provide the benefits associated, in theory and often more or less in practice, with competitive markets.
    This is just fundamental micro-economics. The monopolist produces less, and charges more, than a supplier operating in a competitive market.
    Now, some things tend to natural monopolies. These are situations where marginal costs consistently decline. Each new unit of output, or customer, costs less than the last one. In that situation competitors cannot catch up. Hence there is a strong argument for government involvement, because the total benefit to society is less than it would be if there were competition involved.
    Here endeth the lesson.

  544. The point is that monopoly or near-monopoly markets do not provide the benefits associated, in theory and often more or less in practice, with competitive markets.
    This is just fundamental micro-economics. The monopolist produces less, and charges more, than a supplier operating in a competitive market.
    Now, some things tend to natural monopolies. These are situations where marginal costs consistently decline. Each new unit of output, or customer, costs less than the last one. In that situation competitors cannot catch up. Hence there is a strong argument for government involvement, because the total benefit to society is less than it would be if there were competition involved.
    Here endeth the lesson.

  545. hese are situations where marginal costs consistently decline. Each new unit of output, or customer, costs less than the last one. In that situation competitors cannot catch up.
    And that is, pretty much, what we see with cable Internet connections. The cables were already there (for TV), and could just add on the Internet (and land-line phone, at least in our area). Adding additional houses, when some already have cable, is cheap. Someone looking to lay fiber around town from scratch is looking at enormous initial costs; costs that Comcast et al. long since amortized.

  546. hese are situations where marginal costs consistently decline. Each new unit of output, or customer, costs less than the last one. In that situation competitors cannot catch up.
    And that is, pretty much, what we see with cable Internet connections. The cables were already there (for TV), and could just add on the Internet (and land-line phone, at least in our area). Adding additional houses, when some already have cable, is cheap. Someone looking to lay fiber around town from scratch is looking at enormous initial costs; costs that Comcast et al. long since amortized.

  547. I wouldn’t have thought of pushing government supplied internet as a major issue a year ago ( though maybe because I never thought about it) but with the end of net neutrality, what sort of control do we have over the behavior of monopolists? None that I can see. So I think we should declare one political war on the ISP’s. Threaten them with takeover, do whatever t takes, make their very existence a political issue.
    Some of us ( probably a lot of us) are old enough to remember the pre internet era, where the mainstream press pretty much told us what reality was and they chose to print or not print any letter you wrote in greatly shortened form. You could subscribe to the fringe left publications or read fringe left authors like Chomsky. If you didn’t agree with, say, the mainstream view on Israel and someone thought you sounded like an antisemitic nutcase or if you thought the US was guilty of mass murder, you couldn’t send them links to HRW reports or BTselem or whatever. You couldn’t discuss things with others online or easily participate in email campaigns launched by organizations with easily accessible websites. There is a downside to the internet— we can all live in our own little cognitive bubbles if we choose. But now it is a choice.
    I think that choice could get taken away. I don’t trust anybody to restrict t he sorts of websites that are easily accessible ( I also don’t trust people who want to decide for others which sites are fake news). If we start having to pay more to see certain parts of the web and less to see the approved portions it isn’t censorship because the government isn’t doing it. But it will have the same result.
    Hope I am wrong.

  548. I wouldn’t have thought of pushing government supplied internet as a major issue a year ago ( though maybe because I never thought about it) but with the end of net neutrality, what sort of control do we have over the behavior of monopolists? None that I can see. So I think we should declare one political war on the ISP’s. Threaten them with takeover, do whatever t takes, make their very existence a political issue.
    Some of us ( probably a lot of us) are old enough to remember the pre internet era, where the mainstream press pretty much told us what reality was and they chose to print or not print any letter you wrote in greatly shortened form. You could subscribe to the fringe left publications or read fringe left authors like Chomsky. If you didn’t agree with, say, the mainstream view on Israel and someone thought you sounded like an antisemitic nutcase or if you thought the US was guilty of mass murder, you couldn’t send them links to HRW reports or BTselem or whatever. You couldn’t discuss things with others online or easily participate in email campaigns launched by organizations with easily accessible websites. There is a downside to the internet— we can all live in our own little cognitive bubbles if we choose. But now it is a choice.
    I think that choice could get taken away. I don’t trust anybody to restrict t he sorts of websites that are easily accessible ( I also don’t trust people who want to decide for others which sites are fake news). If we start having to pay more to see certain parts of the web and less to see the approved portions it isn’t censorship because the government isn’t doing it. But it will have the same result.
    Hope I am wrong.

  549. In the news just now, Senator McCain is going home from the hospital to Arizona. Which means that, if just 2 GOP Senators decide to vote No, the tax abomination is toast. Not even a chance for the VP to break a tie.
    Granted, it doesn’t look like there will be two. But then, there didn’t look to be the votes to stop the ACA repeal either. Hope springs eternal….

  550. In the news just now, Senator McCain is going home from the hospital to Arizona. Which means that, if just 2 GOP Senators decide to vote No, the tax abomination is toast. Not even a chance for the VP to break a tie.
    Granted, it doesn’t look like there will be two. But then, there didn’t look to be the votes to stop the ACA repeal either. Hope springs eternal….

  551. …costs that Comcast et al. long since amortized.
    Comcast (or their predecessor) has offered high-speed data in my suburb (115K people west of Denver) for 20 years now. Their current standard offering is already 75Mbps down, 6 Mbps up. For the last year they have been putting an enormous amount of new fiber in here (I’m getting tired of dodging the lane closures). I assume there will be a big push to gigabit speeds using DWDM to the customer in the next year or so.
    I don’t know what their annual construction budget for outside plant is nationally, but would be surprised if it were not in the low billions of dollars.

  552. …costs that Comcast et al. long since amortized.
    Comcast (or their predecessor) has offered high-speed data in my suburb (115K people west of Denver) for 20 years now. Their current standard offering is already 75Mbps down, 6 Mbps up. For the last year they have been putting an enormous amount of new fiber in here (I’m getting tired of dodging the lane closures). I assume there will be a big push to gigabit speeds using DWDM to the customer in the next year or so.
    I don’t know what their annual construction budget for outside plant is nationally, but would be surprised if it were not in the low billions of dollars.

  555. Bobby, my totally off-the-wall guess: Collins and Murkowski. Collins because she is looking to run for Governor in the not too distant future, and has seen enough to know that she probably wouldn’t actually get what she has been promised. Murkowski because, having won her seat as an Independent, she knows she doesn’t actually have to worry that much about getting primaried (again) for not supporting it.
    I think it’s also not impossible that Corker might rediscover his backbone, if the bill would actually fail with his vote. (If it is going to pass anyway, why make waves? But if he could turn the tide…?)

  556. Bobby, my totally off-the-wall guess: Collins and Murkowski. Collins because she is looking to run for Governor in the not too distant future, and has seen enough to know that she probably wouldn’t actually get what she has been promised. Murkowski because, having won her seat as an Independent, she knows she doesn’t actually have to worry that much about getting primaried (again) for not supporting it.
    I think it’s also not impossible that Corker might rediscover his backbone, if the bill would actually fail with his vote. (If it is going to pass anyway, why make waves? But if he could turn the tide…?)

  557. I assume there will be a big push to gigabit speeds using DWDM to the customer in the next year or so.
    old neighborhood, one mile away from where we are now, i could get 30Mbs, cable. when we lived in our interim apartment in a more urban part of the area, we could get 300Mbps, cable.
    in my neighborhood right now, the best i can get is 9.5 / 0.75 Mbps. DSL. Time Warner has no interest in stringing cable down our 1 mile road.
    a mile and a half down the road, we have friends who can’t get 1Mbps. they have to use cellular.

  558. I assume there will be a big push to gigabit speeds using DWDM to the customer in the next year or so.
    old neighborhood, one mile away from where we are now, i could get 30Mbs, cable. when we lived in our interim apartment in a more urban part of the area, we could get 300Mbps, cable.
    in my neighborhood right now, the best i can get is 9.5 / 0.75 Mbps. DSL. Time Warner has no interest in stringing cable down our 1 mile road.
    a mile and a half down the road, we have friends who can’t get 1Mbps. they have to use cellular.

  561. Senator McCain is going home from the hospital to Arizona.
    When is Cochran going to be back from his latest medical problem? Flake’s office reportedly said today that he hasn’t made up his mind; to the best of my recollection, he’s eventually fallen in line each time despite tough talk.

  562. Senator McCain is going home from the hospital to Arizona.
    When is Cochran going to be back from his latest medical problem? Flake’s office reportedly said today that he hasn’t made up his mind; to the best of my recollection, he’s eventually fallen in line each time despite tough talk.

  563. Janie,
    What is the story on Collins way up north there?
    I honestly don’t understand her support of the tax abomination. Wasn’t she worried about Medicare cuts? And hasn’t Ryan pretty much promised that he will go after Medicare?
    Plus, Maine has a significant income tax.
    Can you provide any local insights?

  564. Janie,
    What is the story on Collins way up north there?
    I honestly don’t understand her support of the tax abomination. Wasn’t she worried about Medicare cuts? And hasn’t Ryan pretty much promised that he will go after Medicare?
    Plus, Maine has a significant income tax.
    Can you provide any local insights?

  565. Some of us (probably a lot of us) are old enough to remember the pre internet era
    haha! I’m older than that.
    I remember the Fairness Doctrine, when freedom of speech and freedom of the press was “threatened” by people with unfortunate haircuts offering their opinions on topics ranging from war and peace to bus schedule changes.
    It was a different time.

  566. Some of us (probably a lot of us) are old enough to remember the pre internet era
    haha! I’m older than that.
    I remember the Fairness Doctrine, when freedom of speech and freedom of the press was “threatened” by people with unfortunate haircuts offering their opinions on topics ranging from war and peace to bus schedule changes.
    It was a different time.

  567. Bernie — I have one insight that I consider local and rock solid, and some opinions that you can take for what you paid for them. 😉
    The local insight, which I have asserted quite a few times on blogs (including here, I’m sure) is that Susan Collins is never, ever, ever, ever going to switch parties. I think anyone who knows anything about the Ds and Rs in Maine beyond the newspaper headlines would say that. I’ve seen it speculated about online by people outside Maine, but no, it ain’t gonna happen.
    I did see a headline, I think in the NYT the other day, the possibility of her switching to be an independent. I wouldn’t bet on that, either, but I wouldn’t say it’s as impossible as her becoming a D.
    It’s relevant to her popularity that the vast majority of people are not political junkies. She’s well-liked personally, and she is actually *not* a hard right-winger if you look at the totality of her voting record. Plus she gets a disgusting amount of mileage out of the grandstanding she does (often, in the past, with McCain) as a mavericky rebel; no one sees the minor hidden paragraph four days later about how she/they voted with the party in the end after all.
    I also think that Maine has
    1) a lot of old-fashioned New Englandy Republicans who are like a nun I once met who said of a Pope she didn’t like and a direction she didn’t like the church going in, “It’s our church too.” Meaning she wasn’t going to leave the church just because the head of it was a jerk. I respected that nun’s argument at the time; the Rs who are in effect doing the same thing now baffle me, to put it quite ridiculously politely; and
    2) quite a few, and probably an increasing number of, hard right-wingers. District 2’s electoral vote went to the R, and their congressman is a slithery R…whose appeal (unlike Susan’s) I just cannot fathom.
    Margaret Chase Smith is one of her role models. When Clickbait was elected, I was hoping that there would come a Margaret Chase Smith moment for Collins, but that was apparently a naive pipe dream. Plus — and I can’t find it in a quick search right now — Margaret Chase Smith’s famous speech against McCarthy was preceded (or followed?) by her saying bad things about Democrats. Your party has been co-opted by an evil maniac? Eh, there’s still no reason to give the Ds any credit, or to reconsider whether you really want to agree so faithfully on policy with people like this administration or these Congressional Rs.
    FWIW. Which is mostly to serve as discussion fodder.

  568. Bernie — I have one insight that I consider local and rock solid, and some opinions that you can take for what you paid for them. 😉
    The local insight, which I have asserted quite a few times on blogs (including here, I’m sure) is that Susan Collins is never, ever, ever, ever going to switch parties. I think anyone who knows anything about the Ds and Rs in Maine beyond the newspaper headlines would say that. I’ve seen it speculated about online by people outside Maine, but no, it ain’t gonna happen.
    I did see a headline, I think in the NYT the other day, the possibility of her switching to be an independent. I wouldn’t bet on that, either, but I wouldn’t say it’s as impossible as her becoming a D.
    It’s relevant to her popularity that the vast majority of people are not political junkies. She’s well-liked personally, and she is actually *not* a hard right-winger if you look at the totality of her voting record. Plus she gets a disgusting amount of mileage out of the grandstanding she does (often, in the past, with McCain) as a mavericky rebel; no one sees the minor hidden paragraph four days later about how she/they voted with the party in the end after all.
    I also think that Maine has
    1) a lot of old-fashioned New Englandy Republicans who are like a nun I once met who said of a Pope she didn’t like and a direction she didn’t like the church going in, “It’s our church too.” Meaning she wasn’t going to leave the church just because the head of it was a jerk. I respected that nun’s argument at the time; the Rs who are in effect doing the same thing now baffle me, to put it quite ridiculously politely; and
    2) quite a few, and probably an increasing number of, hard right-wingers. District 2’s electoral vote went to the R, and their congressman is a slithery R…whose appeal (unlike Susan’s) I just cannot fathom.
    Margaret Chase Smith is one of her role models. When Clickbait was elected, I was hoping that there would come a Margaret Chase Smith moment for Collins, but that was apparently a naive pipe dream. Plus — and I can’t find it in a quick search right now — Margaret Chase Smith’s famous speech against McCarthy was preceded (or followed?) by her saying bad things about Democrats. Your party has been co-opted by an evil maniac? Eh, there’s still no reason to give the Ds any credit, or to reconsider whether you really want to agree so faithfully on policy with people like this administration or these Congressional Rs.
    FWIW. Which is mostly to serve as discussion fodder.

  571. It does occur to me that, at least occasionally, a reputation as a maverick is enhanced by actually being one when it counts.
    And the vote on this tax bill won’t be a “minor hidden paragraph four days later” — it’s going to be a front page headline, impossible to miss. Will that be enough? Perhaps not. But I think it may up the odds a little.

  572. It does occur to me that, at least occasionally, a reputation as a maverick is enhanced by actually being one when it counts.
    And the vote on this tax bill won’t be a “minor hidden paragraph four days later” — it’s going to be a front page headline, impossible to miss. Will that be enough? Perhaps not. But I think it may up the odds a little.

  573. Will that be enough? Perhaps not. But I think it may up the odds a little.
    Do you mean “enough to get her to vote against it”?
    She hasn’t even been splashily mavericky on this one. She had her usual “concerns” and then she got some private promises from some people who weren’t in a position to keep them and then she voted for the bill.
    I mean, I’ll be ecstatic if the bill fails. But if she votes against it and it still passes, she got cover, that’s all.

  574. Will that be enough? Perhaps not. But I think it may up the odds a little.
    Do you mean “enough to get her to vote against it”?
    She hasn’t even been splashily mavericky on this one. She had her usual “concerns” and then she got some private promises from some people who weren’t in a position to keep them and then she voted for the bill.
    I mean, I’ll be ecstatic if the bill fails. But if she votes against it and it still passes, she got cover, that’s all.

  575. wj,
    Republicans ALWAYS cave. The clever ones play “maverick” for our gullible Broderist media. For a while. Long enough to keep idealists believing that the GOP can be cured of its prion disease from the inside. But when it comes to bucking the NRA, the Christianists, or god forbid right-wing billionaires, even slightly, Republicans ALWAYS cave.
    If Susan Collins, John McCain, Jeff Flake, Bob Corker and their ilk represent the stiffest spines the GOP has to offer, then the GOP as a species is several evolutionary steps removed from the class of vertebrates.
    –TP

  576. wj,
    Republicans ALWAYS cave. The clever ones play “maverick” for our gullible Broderist media. For a while. Long enough to keep idealists believing that the GOP can be cured of its prion disease from the inside. But when it comes to bucking the NRA, the Christianists, or god forbid right-wing billionaires, even slightly, Republicans ALWAYS cave.
    If Susan Collins, John McCain, Jeff Flake, Bob Corker and their ilk represent the stiffest spines the GOP has to offer, then the GOP as a species is several evolutionary steps removed from the class of vertebrates.
    –TP

  577. Republicans ALWAYS cave.
    Pray forgive my sometimes terrible memory. But I seem to recall the ACA repeal failing to pass. In a Senate with a clear majority of Republicans. Do I remember wrongly?
    Now if you were to argue that most Republicans always cave, or even that all Republicans usually cave — that’s one thing. (Although I would note that the Democrats have done extremely well at keeping everyone on-side when it mattered, so perhaps the Republicans are not quite unique here.)
    But “always” appears to be just a trifle excessive. Unless, it occurs to me, you are merely being careful to avoid any hopes which might not be fulfilled. Not, you may have noticed, my approach to the world, but I realize that others have other preferences.

  578. Republicans ALWAYS cave.
    Pray forgive my sometimes terrible memory. But I seem to recall the ACA repeal failing to pass. In a Senate with a clear majority of Republicans. Do I remember wrongly?
    Now if you were to argue that most Republicans always cave, or even that all Republicans usually cave — that’s one thing. (Although I would note that the Democrats have done extremely well at keeping everyone on-side when it mattered, so perhaps the Republicans are not quite unique here.)
    But “always” appears to be just a trifle excessive. Unless, it occurs to me, you are merely being careful to avoid any hopes which might not be fulfilled. Not, you may have noticed, my approach to the world, but I realize that others have other preferences.

  579. Or, Republicans almost always end up voting for bills that primarily create policy with which they agree. These are not bills implementing bad or evil things they fundamentally disagree with, they are bills that have some provisions that they don’t like. Ultimately they are negotiating the most they can and then voting for Republican bills, because they are Republicans.

  580. Or, Republicans almost always end up voting for bills that primarily create policy with which they agree. These are not bills implementing bad or evil things they fundamentally disagree with, they are bills that have some provisions that they don’t like. Ultimately they are negotiating the most they can and then voting for Republican bills, because they are Republicans.

  581. Ultimately they are negotiating the most they can and then voting for Republican bills, because they are Republicans.
    yup.
    the tax bill is what it is because (R)’s wrote it. if it passes, it will pass on a basically (or perhaps entirely) party line vote.
    the bill reflects the priorities that (R)’s have been running on for 40 years now. nothing more, nothing less.

  582. Ultimately they are negotiating the most they can and then voting for Republican bills, because they are Republicans.
    yup.
    the tax bill is what it is because (R)’s wrote it. if it passes, it will pass on a basically (or perhaps entirely) party line vote.
    the bill reflects the priorities that (R)’s have been running on for 40 years now. nothing more, nothing less.

  585. “Ultimately they are negotiating the most they can and then voting for Republican bills, because they are Republicans.”
    Ultimately they are negotiating the most for themselves personally and then voting for Republican bills, because they are paid to do so.”
    https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/12/corker-knows-nuthin-bout-corkerkickback.html
    When zookeepers muck out the crocodile or the big cat enclosures at the zoo, they are reminded that these things are predators.
    The tax bill is 1000 pages, most of it sight unseen. It may be blank sheets of paper for all we know, like the Potemkin stacks of fed regs apparently inscribed with disappearing ink rump likes to use as props.
    Haven’t heard a single conservative around here whinging about the tax bills difficult readability, compared to the 500-plus page ACA.
    Ultimately, voting for pure lying pig shit.

  586. “Ultimately they are negotiating the most they can and then voting for Republican bills, because they are Republicans.”
    Ultimately they are negotiating the most for themselves personally and then voting for Republican bills, because they are paid to do so.”
    https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/12/corker-knows-nuthin-bout-corkerkickback.html
    When zookeepers muck out the crocodile or the big cat enclosures at the zoo, they are reminded that these things are predators.
    The tax bill is 1000 pages, most of it sight unseen. It may be blank sheets of paper for all we know, like the Potemkin stacks of fed regs apparently inscribed with disappearing ink rump likes to use as props.
    Haven’t heard a single conservative around here whinging about the tax bills difficult readability, compared to the 500-plus page ACA.
    Ultimately, voting for pure lying pig shit.

  591. the bill reflects the priorities that (R)’s have been running on for 40 years now. nothing more, nothing less.
    and it’s darkly amusing that their first major legislative accomplishment, a full halfway through this House session, is that most Republican of Republican priorities: tax cuts for the rich. literally the only thing they can do is the one thing that they always do.
    they’re the AC/DC of politics: proudly making the same record since 1974.

  592. the bill reflects the priorities that (R)’s have been running on for 40 years now. nothing more, nothing less.
    and it’s darkly amusing that their first major legislative accomplishment, a full halfway through this House session, is that most Republican of Republican priorities: tax cuts for the rich. literally the only thing they can do is the one thing that they always do.
    they’re the AC/DC of politics: proudly making the same record since 1974.

  593. the bill reflects the priorities that (R)’s have been running on for 40 years now. nothing more, nothing less.
    it’s darkly amusing that the only thing they’ve been able to accomplish is the same thing they always accomplish – that most Republican of all Republican accomplishments: cutting taxes for the rich. literally all they can do is the same thing they always do.
    they’re the AC/DC of politics: putting out the same half-assed record since 1974.

  594. the bill reflects the priorities that (R)’s have been running on for 40 years now. nothing more, nothing less.
    it’s darkly amusing that the only thing they’ve been able to accomplish is the same thing they always accomplish – that most Republican of all Republican accomplishments: cutting taxes for the rich. literally all they can do is the same thing they always do.
    they’re the AC/DC of politics: putting out the same half-assed record since 1974.

  595. The B-side on that single is cutting spending on everyone else, particularly the poor, the sick, the elderly, and children.
    They do care about deficits, but only in so far as they serve as a bludgeon.
    We’re on the verge of nuclear war. There will be no butter.
    The Mueller investigative team is butter.

  596. The B-side on that single is cutting spending on everyone else, particularly the poor, the sick, the elderly, and children.
    They do care about deficits, but only in so far as they serve as a bludgeon.
    We’re on the verge of nuclear war. There will be no butter.
    The Mueller investigative team is butter.

  599. Haven’t heard a single conservative around here whinging about the tax bills difficult readability, compared to the 500-plus page ACA.
    That’s all true, but the bill is pretty simple, really. There’s a lot of funky edge case crap to pull in the last few votes they need, but it boils down to this.
    Big cut in the corporate tax rate.
    Big cut for pass-throughs.
    Double the standard deduction, which will be a modest benefit for some folks, and a net increase in tax liability for others.
    All of it paid for by loading another $1.5T on the national debt over ten years.
    Some of that may be recouped by economic growth, all of it almost certainly will not.
    The gap between “some of that” and “all of that” remains to be seen.
    There are some side effects that are less obvious, and which will not be so great for the middle-class. Folks will figure that out over time. Or, some will, some won’t.
    Next up, entitlement cuts. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid. It’s what they’ve been running on for 40 years, this is their moment, they’re gonna go for it while they can.

  600. Haven’t heard a single conservative around here whinging about the tax bills difficult readability, compared to the 500-plus page ACA.
    That’s all true, but the bill is pretty simple, really. There’s a lot of funky edge case crap to pull in the last few votes they need, but it boils down to this.
    Big cut in the corporate tax rate.
    Big cut for pass-throughs.
    Double the standard deduction, which will be a modest benefit for some folks, and a net increase in tax liability for others.
    All of it paid for by loading another $1.5T on the national debt over ten years.
    Some of that may be recouped by economic growth, all of it almost certainly will not.
    The gap between “some of that” and “all of that” remains to be seen.
    There are some side effects that are less obvious, and which will not be so great for the middle-class. Folks will figure that out over time. Or, some will, some won’t.
    Next up, entitlement cuts. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid. It’s what they’ve been running on for 40 years, this is their moment, they’re gonna go for it while they can.

  601. Big cut in the corporate tax rate.
    Big cut for pass-throughs.
    Double the standard deduction, which will be a modest benefit for some folks, and a net increase in tax liability for others.
    You left out the part where the bits that benefit individuals (outside the top 1%) all expire in 10 years. So it can be passed in reconciliation. But the corporate cuts are permanent.

  602. Big cut in the corporate tax rate.
    Big cut for pass-throughs.
    Double the standard deduction, which will be a modest benefit for some folks, and a net increase in tax liability for others.
    You left out the part where the bits that benefit individuals (outside the top 1%) all expire in 10 years. So it can be passed in reconciliation. But the corporate cuts are permanent.

  603. Haven’t heard a single conservative around here whinging about the tax bills difficult readability, compared to the 500-plus page ACA.
    That’s all true, but the bill is pretty simple, really. There’s a lot of funky edge case crap to pull in the last few votes they need, but it boils down to this.
    Several things.
    First, it’s too much work commenting here since T’s election, with all the heads exploding daily if not hourly.
    Second, the ACA was 2500 pages, not 500.
    Third, 500 pages is still too long and who knows what other BS is buried in it.
    Fourth, other than the corp tax rate, the rest of the bill is Red State punishing Blue State burden shifting. There was at least one element of this going the other way in ACA, excises on hunting and fishing equipment, albeit on a much smaller scale.
    Fifth, it’s stupid politically. The economy is doing fine, so priming–if the cuts can actually be shown to stimulate–is unnecessary. It’s the kind of dumbassery I objected to in the Dem stimulus of 2009. It’s just as bad now. But what is worse, when the inevitable market correction comes, what will be blamed? Republican tax cuts for the rich. So, stupid on steroids. Felony stupid. Tone deaf. Dumb.
    Sixth, any claim to principle the Repubs might have once had is forfeited. Ditto their faux concern for the deficit.
    Seventh, FWIW, on a personal level, my single largest deductions are property tax and imputed state income tax from states in which my firm does business. So, even with the reduction in marginal rates, my taxes go up slightly. I think the idea is to hammer taxpayers with combined incomes over 300K or so in Blue states. I don’t know why Repubs think this is good policy much less the right thing to do, but it’s the only reasonable inference I can draw.

  604. Haven’t heard a single conservative around here whinging about the tax bills difficult readability, compared to the 500-plus page ACA.
    That’s all true, but the bill is pretty simple, really. There’s a lot of funky edge case crap to pull in the last few votes they need, but it boils down to this.
    Several things.
    First, it’s too much work commenting here since T’s election, with all the heads exploding daily if not hourly.
    Second, the ACA was 2500 pages, not 500.
    Third, 500 pages is still too long and who knows what other BS is buried in it.
    Fourth, other than the corp tax rate, the rest of the bill is Red State punishing Blue State burden shifting. There was at least one element of this going the other way in ACA, excises on hunting and fishing equipment, albeit on a much smaller scale.
    Fifth, it’s stupid politically. The economy is doing fine, so priming–if the cuts can actually be shown to stimulate–is unnecessary. It’s the kind of dumbassery I objected to in the Dem stimulus of 2009. It’s just as bad now. But what is worse, when the inevitable market correction comes, what will be blamed? Republican tax cuts for the rich. So, stupid on steroids. Felony stupid. Tone deaf. Dumb.
    Sixth, any claim to principle the Repubs might have once had is forfeited. Ditto their faux concern for the deficit.
    Seventh, FWIW, on a personal level, my single largest deductions are property tax and imputed state income tax from states in which my firm does business. So, even with the reduction in marginal rates, my taxes go up slightly. I think the idea is to hammer taxpayers with combined incomes over 300K or so in Blue states. I don’t know why Repubs think this is good policy much less the right thing to do, but it’s the only reasonable inference I can draw.

  607. More broadly, there are a lot of elements of the final GOP tax bill on the corporate tax, especially international corporate tax, as Obama was proposing. A major difference being a 28% corp rate vs. 21% now.
    Which is to say, there was room for some cooperative bipartisanship on this bill if the GOP wanted to take a more deliberative approach, instead we get this rushed, horrid process, which is completely unnecessary.

  608. More broadly, there are a lot of elements of the final GOP tax bill on the corporate tax, especially international corporate tax, as Obama was proposing. A major difference being a 28% corp rate vs. 21% now.
    Which is to say, there was room for some cooperative bipartisanship on this bill if the GOP wanted to take a more deliberative approach, instead we get this rushed, horrid process, which is completely unnecessary.

  609. this rushed, horrid process, which is completely unnecessary
    my theory about the process here (and even with the ACA-killer failure) is that the GOP strategists have come up with a new way to approach legislation. previously, legislatures would have taken some time to work on big bills like these. they would have at least pretended to invite the other team along; there would have been horse-trading; they would have had industry buy-in; they would have thought about the consequences of blowing through all of their “political capital”; maybe they’d listen to public input. all that democracy crap.
    the problem with all that is that it takes time. and time tends to chip away at a majority – courts, members leaving unexpectedly / special elections, public opinion changing, imminent elections weighing on members’ bravery.
    so the play now is to take your new majority, get in a huddle, do a few cheers, and then come out blasting bills through as quickly as you can. don’t spend months working on them. slap them together and get them voted on before anything can threaten to break your team’s spirit or its majority.
    make big plays, establish new baselines. any little problems your create in the process can be fixed down the road.
    the national GOP’s problem is that their Senate majority is too slim and they can’t count on everyone to be a team player. if they had one or two more true team players, they’d be blasting the crap through as quickly as they can. instead, they have to deal with people who want to showboat.
    but state GOP legislatures (NC, for example) have big enough majorities that they don’t have to worry about weak team members.

  610. this rushed, horrid process, which is completely unnecessary
    my theory about the process here (and even with the ACA-killer failure) is that the GOP strategists have come up with a new way to approach legislation. previously, legislatures would have taken some time to work on big bills like these. they would have at least pretended to invite the other team along; there would have been horse-trading; they would have had industry buy-in; they would have thought about the consequences of blowing through all of their “political capital”; maybe they’d listen to public input. all that democracy crap.
    the problem with all that is that it takes time. and time tends to chip away at a majority – courts, members leaving unexpectedly / special elections, public opinion changing, imminent elections weighing on members’ bravery.
    so the play now is to take your new majority, get in a huddle, do a few cheers, and then come out blasting bills through as quickly as you can. don’t spend months working on them. slap them together and get them voted on before anything can threaten to break your team’s spirit or its majority.
    make big plays, establish new baselines. any little problems your create in the process can be fixed down the road.
    the national GOP’s problem is that their Senate majority is too slim and they can’t count on everyone to be a team player. if they had one or two more true team players, they’d be blasting the crap through as quickly as they can. instead, they have to deal with people who want to showboat.
    but state GOP legislatures (NC, for example) have big enough majorities that they don’t have to worry about weak team members.

  611.  there was room for some cooperative bipartisanship on this bill if the GOP wanted to take a more deliberative approach
    I have the distinct impression that avoiding any hint of bipartisanship has become a core requirement for the Congressional GOP. That is, they will refuse to do even things that they desire if the Democrats speak up loudly in support. Unless they already have unanimous support from their own caucus. Or maybe if the bill is required to keep the government open — although for that they may feel it necessary to let things be shut down for a while first.
    It’s a reflection of the hyper-partisanship that has been growing across more and more of our society. We really do need to get over it. Preferably sooner rather than later.

  612.  there was room for some cooperative bipartisanship on this bill if the GOP wanted to take a more deliberative approach
    I have the distinct impression that avoiding any hint of bipartisanship has become a core requirement for the Congressional GOP. That is, they will refuse to do even things that they desire if the Democrats speak up loudly in support. Unless they already have unanimous support from their own caucus. Or maybe if the bill is required to keep the government open — although for that they may feel it necessary to let things be shut down for a while first.
    It’s a reflection of the hyper-partisanship that has been growing across more and more of our society. We really do need to get over it. Preferably sooner rather than later.

  613. “I think the idea is to hammer taxpayers with combined incomes over 300K or so in Blue states. I don’t know why Repubs think this is good policy much less the right thing to do, but it’s the only reasonable inference I can draw.”
    They hope to engender property, sales, and income tax revolts and bolster republican-led virulent anti-government campaigns, a la Howard Jarvis in California and Douglas Bruce’s Tabor Amendment in Colorado, in all states, but blue especially.
    This would shrink state and local government to the point where public sector unions would be sent packing just as private sectors unions have been, public schools would be utterly strapped and close, and drown the state-level babies of government in the bathtub so that when federal safety nets are farmed out to the states, the states can’t afford them.
    Devolve and drown and die.
    Remembrance of Things Past is over 3000 pages. It’s much more rewarding reading than Atlas Shrugged at just over 1100 pages in the first edition.
    “with all the heads exploding daily if not hourly.”
    My head is on a ten-minute egg timer for its explosions.
    Nevertheless, what McKinney said.
    I can delay my next head explosion by half an hour.

  614. “I think the idea is to hammer taxpayers with combined incomes over 300K or so in Blue states. I don’t know why Repubs think this is good policy much less the right thing to do, but it’s the only reasonable inference I can draw.”
    They hope to engender property, sales, and income tax revolts and bolster republican-led virulent anti-government campaigns, a la Howard Jarvis in California and Douglas Bruce’s Tabor Amendment in Colorado, in all states, but blue especially.
    This would shrink state and local government to the point where public sector unions would be sent packing just as private sectors unions have been, public schools would be utterly strapped and close, and drown the state-level babies of government in the bathtub so that when federal safety nets are farmed out to the states, the states can’t afford them.
    Devolve and drown and die.
    Remembrance of Things Past is over 3000 pages. It’s much more rewarding reading than Atlas Shrugged at just over 1100 pages in the first edition.
    “with all the heads exploding daily if not hourly.”
    My head is on a ten-minute egg timer for its explosions.
    Nevertheless, what McKinney said.
    I can delay my next head explosion by half an hour.

  615. First, it’s too much work commenting here since T’s election, with all the heads exploding daily if not hourly.
    I hear ya.
    What McKinney Said.
    Pretty much.

  616. First, it’s too much work commenting here since T’s election, with all the heads exploding daily if not hourly.
    I hear ya.
    What McKinney Said.
    Pretty much.

  617. The rumpcare Bill was 46 pages, or so I’ve read.
    Death sentences tend to be short affairs in America, whereas keeping Americans alive seems to require endless pages of compromise, rationalization and small print.
    This is not to say that Obamacare was/is not complicated.

  618. The rumpcare Bill was 46 pages, or so I’ve read.
    Death sentences tend to be short affairs in America, whereas keeping Americans alive seems to require endless pages of compromise, rationalization and small print.
    This is not to say that Obamacare was/is not complicated.

  621. Heads exploding at a political blog do little harm.
    Wait until actual explosions occur because working and middle-class Americans have been duped:
    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/rural-areas-in-a-destructive-downward-spiral-no-matter-what-trump-says-2017-12-18?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
    Furthermore, any theories about repatriated corporate earnings boosting the fortunes of American employees have been roundly shot to Hell by nearly every corporate chieftain in just about every business publication I read.
    I’ve made more money this year by holding the equity paper of corporations than I have ever made in a year working for a living.*
    I haven’t lifted a finger.
    That’s what I call productivity, suckers.
    *I haven’t made anything until I sell, of course, but it still feels better than being under constant onslaught by employers for the act of merely working for a living.
    Here, try this. Money for nothin. Oops, too late!:
    http://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/quickchart/quickchart.asp?symb=LFIN&insttype=Stock
    Yup, Newt.
    His is a head that needs to roll downhill into a basket, and will, rather than explode.

  622. Heads exploding at a political blog do little harm.
    Wait until actual explosions occur because working and middle-class Americans have been duped:
    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/rural-areas-in-a-destructive-downward-spiral-no-matter-what-trump-says-2017-12-18?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
    Furthermore, any theories about repatriated corporate earnings boosting the fortunes of American employees have been roundly shot to Hell by nearly every corporate chieftain in just about every business publication I read.
    I’ve made more money this year by holding the equity paper of corporations than I have ever made in a year working for a living.*
    I haven’t lifted a finger.
    That’s what I call productivity, suckers.
    *I haven’t made anything until I sell, of course, but it still feels better than being under constant onslaught by employers for the act of merely working for a living.
    Here, try this. Money for nothin. Oops, too late!:
    http://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/quickchart/quickchart.asp?symb=LFIN&insttype=Stock
    Yup, Newt.
    His is a head that needs to roll downhill into a basket, and will, rather than explode.

  623. ‘Corker told IBT that he has only read a short summary of the $1.4 trillion legislation. “I had like a two-page summary I went through with leadership,” said Corker. “I never saw the actual text.” Despite not reading the bill — and having time to read it before the final vote scheduled for this week — he reiterated his support for the bill to IBT, support he announced hours before bill’s full text was publicly released on Friday.’

  624. ‘Corker told IBT that he has only read a short summary of the $1.4 trillion legislation. “I had like a two-page summary I went through with leadership,” said Corker. “I never saw the actual text.” Despite not reading the bill — and having time to read it before the final vote scheduled for this week — he reiterated his support for the bill to IBT, support he announced hours before bill’s full text was publicly released on Friday.’

  627. Oh jeez, every day since the new Congress started the Dems and media have had a story about how the Congress couldn’t get anything done. Now they are moving too fast.
    This bill went a normal route through committee and has been discussed for months, years before that. The only rushing is last minute changes that happen with all major legislation.

  628. Oh jeez, every day since the new Congress started the Dems and media have had a story about how the Congress couldn’t get anything done. Now they are moving too fast.
    This bill went a normal route through committee and has been discussed for months, years before that. The only rushing is last minute changes that happen with all major legislation.

  629. This bill went a normal route through committee and has been discussed for months, years before that.
    [citation required]

  630. This bill went a normal route through committee and has been discussed for months, years before that.
    [citation required]

  633. The economy is doing fine, so priming–if the cuts can actually be shown to stimulate–is unnecessary. It’s the kind of dumbassery I objected to in the Dem stimulus of 2009.
    Who agrees that The Economy was doing fine in ’09 ?
    –TP

  634. The economy is doing fine, so priming–if the cuts can actually be shown to stimulate–is unnecessary. It’s the kind of dumbassery I objected to in the Dem stimulus of 2009.
    Who agrees that The Economy was doing fine in ’09 ?
    –TP

  635. I don’t really care about another trillion or so added to the deficit, except that this is now the reason that will be given for a wholesale attack on Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. I don’t think they even bother concealing it
    And Marty, if you have evidence of thoughtful discussion of this tax bill it would be nice to see links. That is not the story I have read. I am open to the possibility the press has been biased, but doubtful. In the past they have bent over backwards to portray people like Ryan as serious policy wonks.

  636. I don’t really care about another trillion or so added to the deficit, except that this is now the reason that will be given for a wholesale attack on Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. I don’t think they even bother concealing it
    And Marty, if you have evidence of thoughtful discussion of this tax bill it would be nice to see links. That is not the story I have read. I am open to the possibility the press has been biased, but doubtful. In the past they have bent over backwards to portray people like Ryan as serious policy wonks.

  637. Who agrees that The Economy was doing fine in ’09 ?
    Some crickets, maybe.
    That’s a stunning thing – the idea that somehow the economy in 2009 was comparable to today’s economy. But I recall Marty (not who you were responding to, I know, but same apparent amnesia) recently bemoaning the big deficits in Obama’s early years, as though it were simply a matter of Obama being a spendthrift rather than something to do with *the near-collapse of the global economy*. Minor detail.

  638. Who agrees that The Economy was doing fine in ’09 ?
    Some crickets, maybe.
    That’s a stunning thing – the idea that somehow the economy in 2009 was comparable to today’s economy. But I recall Marty (not who you were responding to, I know, but same apparent amnesia) recently bemoaning the big deficits in Obama’s early years, as though it were simply a matter of Obama being a spendthrift rather than something to do with *the near-collapse of the global economy*. Minor detail.

  639. Who agrees that The Economy was doing fine in ’09 ?
    I think McK is arguing that the trough of the recession was in spring, ’09 (as measured by NBER), and the ARRA was passed in Feb, ’09 –so what good did it do? Of course, the path of the economy 2009-present absent the ARRA is unknown.
    On another note, lengthy bills are not necessarily bad bills.

  640. Who agrees that The Economy was doing fine in ’09 ?
    I think McK is arguing that the trough of the recession was in spring, ’09 (as measured by NBER), and the ARRA was passed in Feb, ’09 –so what good did it do? Of course, the path of the economy 2009-present absent the ARRA is unknown.
    On another note, lengthy bills are not necessarily bad bills.

  641. This bill went a normal route….so a bill that had no hearings is a “normal” route? That’s good to know. This shall come in handy when the Democrats regain control and expropriate the expropriators, abolish private property, and institute pure communism!

  642. This bill went a normal route….so a bill that had no hearings is a “normal” route? That’s good to know. This shall come in handy when the Democrats regain control and expropriate the expropriators, abolish private property, and institute pure communism!

  643. I think McK is arguing that the trough of the recession was in spring, ’09 (as measured by NBER), and the ARRA was passed in Feb, ’09
    The kind of dumb-assery I was referring to is partisan legislative gift-giving under the guise of public policy. The 2009 stimulus package was wasted boondoggling. I did not care for it then and I do not care for now. But I have no intention of re-litigating the stimulus bill. I am indifferent to left-wing cheering for the stimulus package just as I am indifferent to Republican cheering for the current legislative horseshit.

  644. I think McK is arguing that the trough of the recession was in spring, ’09 (as measured by NBER), and the ARRA was passed in Feb, ’09
    The kind of dumb-assery I was referring to is partisan legislative gift-giving under the guise of public policy. The 2009 stimulus package was wasted boondoggling. I did not care for it then and I do not care for now. But I have no intention of re-litigating the stimulus bill. I am indifferent to left-wing cheering for the stimulus package just as I am indifferent to Republican cheering for the current legislative horseshit.

  645. I am indifferent to left-wing cheering for the stimulus package just as I am indifferent to Republican cheering for the current legislative horseshit.
    I’m not sure anyone is cheering the 2009 ARRA package so much as noting that stimulus was actually needed then, as opposed to now. I could go on about both the size and direction(s) of the stimulus in a not-very-complimentary way from my spot out here on the left wing.

  646. I am indifferent to left-wing cheering for the stimulus package just as I am indifferent to Republican cheering for the current legislative horseshit.
    I’m not sure anyone is cheering the 2009 ARRA package so much as noting that stimulus was actually needed then, as opposed to now. I could go on about both the size and direction(s) of the stimulus in a not-very-complimentary way from my spot out here on the left wing.

  651. The 2009 stimulus package was wasted boondoggling.
    It paid for repaving route 128, which needed doing. Kept a bunch of folks busy doing it.
    So, not all bad.

  652. The 2009 stimulus package was wasted boondoggling.
    It paid for repaving route 128, which needed doing. Kept a bunch of folks busy doing it.
    So, not all bad.

  653. Two things, this bill was debated and voted out of the applicable committees in both houses. There have been committee hearings on the subject all year. And I already provided cites the last ti.e cleek asked.
    Secondly, I was for a $3B stimulus package. And no I dont have to go back and “prove” it. I was, want to challenge me you do the work.

  654. Two things, this bill was debated and voted out of the applicable committees in both houses. There have been committee hearings on the subject all year. And I already provided cites the last ti.e cleek asked.
    Secondly, I was for a $3B stimulus package. And no I dont have to go back and “prove” it. I was, want to challenge me you do the work.

  655. Secondly, I was for a $3B stimulus package.
    Is that supposed to be a “T”? $3B would have been about 0.1% of the federal budget in 2007, not enough to make any significant difference.

  656. Secondly, I was for a $3B stimulus package.
    Is that supposed to be a “T”? $3B would have been about 0.1% of the federal budget in 2007, not enough to make any significant difference.

  659. For McKinney, from wikipedia.
    Since its inception, the impact of the stimulus has been a subject of disagreement. Studies on its effects have produced a range of conclusions, from strongly positive to strongly negative and all reactions in between. In 2012, the IGM Forum poll conducted by the University of Chicago Booth School of Business found 80% of leading economists agree unemployment was lower at the end of 2010 than it would have been without the stimulus. Regarding whether the benefits of the stimulus outweighed its costs: 46% “agreed” or “strongly agreed” that the benefits outweighed the costs, 27% were uncertain, and 12% disagreed or strongly disagreed.[2] IGM Forum asked the same question to leading economists in 2014. This new poll found 82% of leading economists strongly agreed or agreed that unemployment was lower in 2010 than it would have been without the stimulus. Revisiting the question about the benefits outweighing the costs, 56% strongly agreed or agreed that it did, 23% were uncertain, and 5% disagreed.

  660. For McKinney, from wikipedia.
    Since its inception, the impact of the stimulus has been a subject of disagreement. Studies on its effects have produced a range of conclusions, from strongly positive to strongly negative and all reactions in between. In 2012, the IGM Forum poll conducted by the University of Chicago Booth School of Business found 80% of leading economists agree unemployment was lower at the end of 2010 than it would have been without the stimulus. Regarding whether the benefits of the stimulus outweighed its costs: 46% “agreed” or “strongly agreed” that the benefits outweighed the costs, 27% were uncertain, and 12% disagreed or strongly disagreed.[2] IGM Forum asked the same question to leading economists in 2014. This new poll found 82% of leading economists strongly agreed or agreed that unemployment was lower in 2010 than it would have been without the stimulus. Revisiting the question about the benefits outweighing the costs, 56% strongly agreed or agreed that it did, 23% were uncertain, and 5% disagreed.

  661. this bill was debated and voted out of the applicable committees in both houses
    Including all the stuff hand written in the margins? Sounds like, if so, the Congressional infrastructure is in seriously bad shape.

  662. this bill was debated and voted out of the applicable committees in both houses
    Including all the stuff hand written in the margins? Sounds like, if so, the Congressional infrastructure is in seriously bad shape.

  663. There have been committee hearings on the subject all year.
    False. The House bill was introduced on Nov. 2 and passed 14 days later.
    bobbyp: “Holy crap, Marty, that was some storm we had yesterday! It came out of nowhere really fast.”
    Marty: Well, not really. We have been discussing the weather off and on all year, have we not?”

  664. There have been committee hearings on the subject all year.
    False. The House bill was introduced on Nov. 2 and passed 14 days later.
    bobbyp: “Holy crap, Marty, that was some storm we had yesterday! It came out of nowhere really fast.”
    Marty: Well, not really. We have been discussing the weather off and on all year, have we not?”

  665. Sure, the first time anyone discussed it was the day the bill was introduced. No.
    And then yes, it changed during debate on the floor, when people offered amendments and marked it up, like all legislation. Then, they went to conference committee and spent a few days cleaning it up and tomorrow they will vote on it. Aside from needing to pass it through reconciliation it was done pretty much through regular order. It at least went through the process.
    They have all had time to read it NOW.
    If the Dems want the individual tax cuts to be permanent all they have to do is come up with ten votes.

  666. Sure, the first time anyone discussed it was the day the bill was introduced. No.
    And then yes, it changed during debate on the floor, when people offered amendments and marked it up, like all legislation. Then, they went to conference committee and spent a few days cleaning it up and tomorrow they will vote on it. Aside from needing to pass it through reconciliation it was done pretty much through regular order. It at least went through the process.
    They have all had time to read it NOW.
    If the Dems want the individual tax cuts to be permanent all they have to do is come up with ten votes.

  667. We need a hearing to determine exactly what Marty means by “the” individual tax cuts.
    Oh, wait: we’ve been discussing the estate tax, cap gains, AMT, and top marginal rates for YEARS. Let’s just vote.
    –TP

  668. We need a hearing to determine exactly what Marty means by “the” individual tax cuts.
    Oh, wait: we’ve been discussing the estate tax, cap gains, AMT, and top marginal rates for YEARS. Let’s just vote.
    –TP

  669. There have been committee hearings on the subject all year.
    committee hearings are not a bill. in fact there have been multiple bills, in two Chambers, with dozens of amendments, an uncountable number of scribbled markups. they’re still working on it. they haven’t been around for more than a couple of months, at the most.
    pull the other one.

  670. There have been committee hearings on the subject all year.
    committee hearings are not a bill. in fact there have been multiple bills, in two Chambers, with dozens of amendments, an uncountable number of scribbled markups. they’re still working on it. they haven’t been around for more than a couple of months, at the most.
    pull the other one.

  671. If the Dems want the individual tax cuts to be permanent all they have to do is come up with ten votes.
    And if the Dems wanted to impeach Dumf, all they would need is to round up is maybe two dozen GOP Representatives and maybe a dozen or so GOP Senators, right?
    You are lowering the bar of banality to dangerous levels.

  672. If the Dems want the individual tax cuts to be permanent all they have to do is come up with ten votes.
    And if the Dems wanted to impeach Dumf, all they would need is to round up is maybe two dozen GOP Representatives and maybe a dozen or so GOP Senators, right?
    You are lowering the bar of banality to dangerous levels.

  673. Yes, but to make the individual tax cuts permanent they only need to get ten Democrats to vote for it. No reconciliation, tax cuts permanent. Political cover, but no Republican could be against it. Well maybe Corker for a minute.

  674. Yes, but to make the individual tax cuts permanent they only need to get ten Democrats to vote for it. No reconciliation, tax cuts permanent. Political cover, but no Republican could be against it. Well maybe Corker for a minute.

  675. Yes, but to make the individual tax cuts permanent they only need to get ten Democrats to vote for it
    i suspect that the impediment there is that the (D)’s find the bill to be generally crap. so, not a great deal of motivation to vote for it for the sake of the one piece that is less crappy.

  676. Yes, but to make the individual tax cuts permanent they only need to get ten Democrats to vote for it
    i suspect that the impediment there is that the (D)’s find the bill to be generally crap. so, not a great deal of motivation to vote for it for the sake of the one piece that is less crappy.

  681. TP, specifically the ones set to expire that the Dems keep saying should not expire.
    I saw a list last week but really, I’m not going to look it up for you.

  682. TP, specifically the ones set to expire that the Dems keep saying should not expire.
    I saw a list last week but really, I’m not going to look it up for you.

  683. If the ones set to expire were made permanent, social security wage tax bite reduced to 3%, estate taxes at 100% above $10M, eliminate the carried interest provision, and created a new tax bracket at 90% above $1M, why the GOP would only have to corral 15 Dem votes to override a Strump veto.
    What’s holding the GOP back?

  684. If the ones set to expire were made permanent, social security wage tax bite reduced to 3%, estate taxes at 100% above $10M, eliminate the carried interest provision, and created a new tax bracket at 90% above $1M, why the GOP would only have to corral 15 Dem votes to override a Strump veto.
    What’s holding the GOP back?

  685. Well bobbyp, that would be the Dems. Getting votes from the other party is not the same as getting votes from your own party for something you supposedly support.

  686. Well bobbyp, that would be the Dems. Getting votes from the other party is not the same as getting votes from your own party for something you supposedly support.

  687. Marty,
    “Getting votes from the other party is not the same as getting votes from your own party for something you supposedly support.” (emphasis added)
    And thus the fun, whenever the debt limit needs raising.

  688. Marty,
    “Getting votes from the other party is not the same as getting votes from your own party for something you supposedly support.” (emphasis added)
    And thus the fun, whenever the debt limit needs raising.

  689. meanwhile, this happened:

    While nuclear deterrence strategies cannot prevent all conflict, they are essential to prevent nuclear attack, non-nuclear strategic attacks, and large-scale conventional aggression

    what are “non-nuclear strategic attacks” and “large-scale conventional aggression”?
    are there hostile armies massing on our borders? would hacking infrastructure be a “non-nuclear strategic attack”?
    our potus, the crown prince of folly.

  690. meanwhile, this happened:

    While nuclear deterrence strategies cannot prevent all conflict, they are essential to prevent nuclear attack, non-nuclear strategic attacks, and large-scale conventional aggression

    what are “non-nuclear strategic attacks” and “large-scale conventional aggression”?
    are there hostile armies massing on our borders? would hacking infrastructure be a “non-nuclear strategic attack”?
    our potus, the crown prince of folly.

  693. Are hearings scheduled in the tax bill for Merrick Garland’s Supreme Courts appointment to replace serial harasser Clarence Thomas?
    No?
    Well then, fuck off.

  694. Are hearings scheduled in the tax bill for Merrick Garland’s Supreme Courts appointment to replace serial harasser Clarence Thomas?
    No?
    Well then, fuck off.

  699. Getting votes from the other party is not the same as getting votes from your own party for something you supposedly support.
    when did the Congressional GOP invite Dems to work with them to pass a “tax reform” bill through the normal (non-reconciliation) process?
    Trump tried it. and the Congressional GOP’s response was derision.
    if the GOP actually wanted Dems involved, they could have. you know they didn’t because they used the reconciliation process, which lets them craft a bill that only needs GOP votes to pass.
    but, as always, we have to hold the Dems responsible for what the GOP does.

  700. Getting votes from the other party is not the same as getting votes from your own party for something you supposedly support.
    when did the Congressional GOP invite Dems to work with them to pass a “tax reform” bill through the normal (non-reconciliation) process?
    Trump tried it. and the Congressional GOP’s response was derision.
    if the GOP actually wanted Dems involved, they could have. you know they didn’t because they used the reconciliation process, which lets them craft a bill that only needs GOP votes to pass.
    but, as always, we have to hold the Dems responsible for what the GOP does.

  701. are there hostile armies massing on our borders?
    You missed the part about how it’s the US’s job to deal with such events anywhere in the world that we choose to do so :^) My guess is that we’re still 15-20 years away from a big enough majority of the US population being tired of that to kick the neo-cons out and start scaling our military back.

  702. are there hostile armies massing on our borders?
    You missed the part about how it’s the US’s job to deal with such events anywhere in the world that we choose to do so :^) My guess is that we’re still 15-20 years away from a big enough majority of the US population being tired of that to kick the neo-cons out and start scaling our military back.

  705. My guess is that we’re still 15-20 years away from a big enough majority of the US population being tired of that to kick the neo-cons out and start scaling our military back.
    too many people are way too in love with the idea that the US should be the strongest military ever, always, for any real cuts to happen.

  706. My guess is that we’re still 15-20 years away from a big enough majority of the US population being tired of that to kick the neo-cons out and start scaling our military back.
    too many people are way too in love with the idea that the US should be the strongest military ever, always, for any real cuts to happen.

  711. Hey, I’ll pile on.
    $1.5T for a tax cut, but health care for kids might have to go.
    Money quote:

    For the $1.5 trillion dollars that they’re borrowing to pay for their tax cut, you could pay for 915 years of CHIP.

    Of course, that’s Wyden, and he’s shrill.
    I don’t hate (R)’s, I don’t think they’re any more or less evil than the run of the mill of humanity. But I have a profoundly different understanding of what it means to participate in a polity than they do.
    At the national level, the (R)’s as a party appear to embrace Margaret Thatcher’s pronouncement that there is “no such thing as society”. There is no cohesive political entity where participation implies any mutual obligation, or any responsibility for each other’s well being.
    If you have money, it’s your money, you owe no-one else a thing. If you’re fortunate, good for you, if other folks are not that’s their problem.
    Let private charity address it. Or, even better, let poverty and misfortune be the goad that gets people off of the freaking asses so that they take care of themselves.
    It’s a point of view that I find brutal and repellent. So, I’m against it. Have been, am now, and will continue to be.
    I don’t wish the (R)’s ill personally, but I consider their program to be profoundly harmful, and look forward to their being out of power. Frankly, I look forward to their being, politically speaking, crushed, plowed under, and the ground where their corrosive ideology is buried sown with salt so that it never raises its head to the light of day again.
    Enjoy your tax cuts, everyone, assuming you get one.

  712. Hey, I’ll pile on.
    $1.5T for a tax cut, but health care for kids might have to go.
    Money quote:

    For the $1.5 trillion dollars that they’re borrowing to pay for their tax cut, you could pay for 915 years of CHIP.

    Of course, that’s Wyden, and he’s shrill.
    I don’t hate (R)’s, I don’t think they’re any more or less evil than the run of the mill of humanity. But I have a profoundly different understanding of what it means to participate in a polity than they do.
    At the national level, the (R)’s as a party appear to embrace Margaret Thatcher’s pronouncement that there is “no such thing as society”. There is no cohesive political entity where participation implies any mutual obligation, or any responsibility for each other’s well being.
    If you have money, it’s your money, you owe no-one else a thing. If you’re fortunate, good for you, if other folks are not that’s their problem.
    Let private charity address it. Or, even better, let poverty and misfortune be the goad that gets people off of the freaking asses so that they take care of themselves.
    It’s a point of view that I find brutal and repellent. So, I’m against it. Have been, am now, and will continue to be.
    I don’t wish the (R)’s ill personally, but I consider their program to be profoundly harmful, and look forward to their being out of power. Frankly, I look forward to their being, politically speaking, crushed, plowed under, and the ground where their corrosive ideology is buried sown with salt so that it never raises its head to the light of day again.
    Enjoy your tax cuts, everyone, assuming you get one.

  713. Sally Yates:

    Not only is there such a thing as objective truth, failing to tell the truth matters. We can’t control whether our public servants lie to us. But we can control whether we hold them accountable for those lies or whether, in either a state of exhaustion or to protect our own political objectives, we look the other way and normalize an indifference to truth.

    what if we look the other way and see tax cuts ? the GOP and its attendant cult knows which way it wants to look.

  714. Sally Yates:

    Not only is there such a thing as objective truth, failing to tell the truth matters. We can’t control whether our public servants lie to us. But we can control whether we hold them accountable for those lies or whether, in either a state of exhaustion or to protect our own political objectives, we look the other way and normalize an indifference to truth.

    what if we look the other way and see tax cuts ? the GOP and its attendant cult knows which way it wants to look.

  715. russell: I don’t hate (R)’s, I don’t think they’re any more or less evil than the run of the mill of humanity.
    The run of the mill of humanity believes (among other things) that we have to do something about climate change, so let’s assume the run of the mill of humanity looks at us Americans and wonders how in hell we tolerate the (R)’s in our midst.
    –TP

  716. russell: I don’t hate (R)’s, I don’t think they’re any more or less evil than the run of the mill of humanity.
    The run of the mill of humanity believes (among other things) that we have to do something about climate change, so let’s assume the run of the mill of humanity looks at us Americans and wonders how in hell we tolerate the (R)’s in our midst.
    –TP

  719. Russell,
    I don’t hate (R)’s, I don’t think they’re any more or less evil than the run of the mill of humanity. But I have a profoundly different understanding of what it means to participate in a polity than they do.
    …..
    I don’t wish the (R)’s ill personally, but I consider their program to be profoundly harmful, and look forward to their being out of power. Frankly, I look forward to their being, politically speaking, crushed, plowed under, and the ground where their corrosive ideology is buried sown with salt so that it never raises its head to the light of day again.
    I don’t wish them ill personally either, but that’s about as far as I’m willing to go. I think they are a gang of fools, knaves, and liars, who are doing serious damage to the country and are either oblivious or just don’t care as long as they and their donors get theirs.
    So, taken as a group, I do think they are evil. These are people who, among many other things, wanted to tax graduate students, and schoolteachers, but not billionaires’ kids. Real estate developers, and those making $500K+ get the big breaks, and scumbag Ryan again puts Medicare and CHIP and Social Security in his sights, to pay for them. That’s one individual it’s hard not to hate.

  720. Russell,
    I don’t hate (R)’s, I don’t think they’re any more or less evil than the run of the mill of humanity. But I have a profoundly different understanding of what it means to participate in a polity than they do.
    …..
    I don’t wish the (R)’s ill personally, but I consider their program to be profoundly harmful, and look forward to their being out of power. Frankly, I look forward to their being, politically speaking, crushed, plowed under, and the ground where their corrosive ideology is buried sown with salt so that it never raises its head to the light of day again.
    I don’t wish them ill personally either, but that’s about as far as I’m willing to go. I think they are a gang of fools, knaves, and liars, who are doing serious damage to the country and are either oblivious or just don’t care as long as they and their donors get theirs.
    So, taken as a group, I do think they are evil. These are people who, among many other things, wanted to tax graduate students, and schoolteachers, but not billionaires’ kids. Real estate developers, and those making $500K+ get the big breaks, and scumbag Ryan again puts Medicare and CHIP and Social Security in his sights, to pay for them. That’s one individual it’s hard not to hate.

  721. Couple of republican assholes get married and someone agrees to put whatever they want on their wedding cake/cookie:
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/restaurant-owner-apologizes-for-trump-jr-ted-cruz-obama-cake-photo
    Plus it’s a bi-racial marriage … a Canadian/Cuban Dreamer and, if I’m not mistaken, a white man impersonating a black man.
    I mean, isn’t rump jr attempting a lame “spook” grin there, like the black actors in old Abbott and Costello movies from the 1940s who only part in the films was to howl, wide-eyed like they was asceared, as he peers down at Obama’s likeness in icing.

  722. Couple of republican assholes get married and someone agrees to put whatever they want on their wedding cake/cookie:
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/restaurant-owner-apologizes-for-trump-jr-ted-cruz-obama-cake-photo
    Plus it’s a bi-racial marriage … a Canadian/Cuban Dreamer and, if I’m not mistaken, a white man impersonating a black man.
    I mean, isn’t rump jr attempting a lame “spook” grin there, like the black actors in old Abbott and Costello movies from the 1940s who only part in the films was to howl, wide-eyed like they was asceared, as he peers down at Obama’s likeness in icing.

  723. I don’t get it.
    Republican politicians at every level of government, their billionaire paymasters, their right-wing media liars, their right-wing think tank policy shitheads, all of them sadists toward the sick and the poor and the snowflakes who give a shit, and the NRA that arms all of the above, wish everyone besides themselves ill and harm with every utterance they make and every vote they hold and every vote they disallow.
    rump ordered his thugs to do physical harm to folks just like us at political rallies.
    They hates them RINOs something fierce.
    They show up at every political rally and town meeting held by anyone to the left of Himmler with weaponry expressly designed to kill their enemies.
    Listen, it’s going to be a little difficult getting this Civil War into the hot zone with all of this good will toward men.
    As Abraham Lincoln, that great hater who destroyed Southern gentility for no good reason, ‘cept preserving the Union and maybe ending slavery, said about his cautious top General, George B. McClellan:
    “If General McClellan isn’t going to use his Army, I’d like to borrow it for a time.”
    Among cold-blooded killers, Ryan has that winning smile as he contemplates murder.
    It’s his enjoyment of the entire thing that makes me hate his guts and to wish his children ill.

  724. I don’t get it.
    Republican politicians at every level of government, their billionaire paymasters, their right-wing media liars, their right-wing think tank policy shitheads, all of them sadists toward the sick and the poor and the snowflakes who give a shit, and the NRA that arms all of the above, wish everyone besides themselves ill and harm with every utterance they make and every vote they hold and every vote they disallow.
    rump ordered his thugs to do physical harm to folks just like us at political rallies.
    They hates them RINOs something fierce.
    They show up at every political rally and town meeting held by anyone to the left of Himmler with weaponry expressly designed to kill their enemies.
    Listen, it’s going to be a little difficult getting this Civil War into the hot zone with all of this good will toward men.
    As Abraham Lincoln, that great hater who destroyed Southern gentility for no good reason, ‘cept preserving the Union and maybe ending slavery, said about his cautious top General, George B. McClellan:
    “If General McClellan isn’t going to use his Army, I’d like to borrow it for a time.”
    Among cold-blooded killers, Ryan has that winning smile as he contemplates murder.
    It’s his enjoyment of the entire thing that makes me hate his guts and to wish his children ill.

  725. too many people are way too in love with the idea that the US should be the strongest military ever, always, for any real cuts to happen.
    I have a standing bet that by Jan 1, 2040, it will be clear that the US will not have the capability to mount an Iraq-like operation (ie, invasion and badly-done occupation of a country of 25M people) outside of the Western Hemisphere. Even bombing the snot out of such a country without permission from whoever the dominant regional power is will be difficult.
    Once it’s clear that’s the state of affairs, the American people aren’t going to continue to pay for 11 carrier strike groups or 2200 F-35 replacements.

  726. too many people are way too in love with the idea that the US should be the strongest military ever, always, for any real cuts to happen.
    I have a standing bet that by Jan 1, 2040, it will be clear that the US will not have the capability to mount an Iraq-like operation (ie, invasion and badly-done occupation of a country of 25M people) outside of the Western Hemisphere. Even bombing the snot out of such a country without permission from whoever the dominant regional power is will be difficult.
    Once it’s clear that’s the state of affairs, the American people aren’t going to continue to pay for 11 carrier strike groups or 2200 F-35 replacements.

  731. are there hostile armies massing on our borders?
    Russell, you know that’s a really, really silly question. What do you think we are building that wall for???

  732. are there hostile armies massing on our borders?
    Russell, you know that’s a really, really silly question. What do you think we are building that wall for???

  733. Yes, but to make the individual tax cuts permanent they only need to get ten Democrats to vote for it. No reconciliation, tax cuts permanent. Political cover, but no Republican could be against it.
    I’ve got 10 bucks says that the Republicans in Congress would absolutely be against it. Because, you know, the deficit — they would only support this if it was tied to massive cuts to entitlements. Anybody going to let me win a sucker bet today…?

  734. Yes, but to make the individual tax cuts permanent they only need to get ten Democrats to vote for it. No reconciliation, tax cuts permanent. Political cover, but no Republican could be against it.
    I’ve got 10 bucks says that the Republicans in Congress would absolutely be against it. Because, you know, the deficit — they would only support this if it was tied to massive cuts to entitlements. Anybody going to let me win a sucker bet today…?

  735. PSA: If you itemize (or would if you took this suggestion) and can swing it, pay your 2018 property taxes (or whatever portion you can) before the end of 2017 so you can deduct them this year (keeping in mind limitations on any tax credits you may be receiving).

  736. PSA: If you itemize (or would if you took this suggestion) and can swing it, pay your 2018 property taxes (or whatever portion you can) before the end of 2017 so you can deduct them this year (keeping in mind limitations on any tax credits you may be receiving).

  739. rump ordered his thugs to do physical harm to folks just like us at political rallies.
    Yeah, well I’m not them and am not interested in being like them.
    They show up at every political rally and town meeting held by anyone to the left of Himmler with weaponry expressly designed to kill their enemies.
    Sucks to be them. If I was that fearful I’d look into going on some kind of medication.
    Listen, it’s going to be a little difficult getting this Civil War into the hot zone with all of this good will toward men.
    I’m not interested in shooting people over tax policy. I just want them to stop making crappy tax policy.
    What do you think we are building that wall for???
    LOL.
    Hostile armies are massing on our borders. They want to invade and pick our vegetables for $10 an hour.

  740. rump ordered his thugs to do physical harm to folks just like us at political rallies.
    Yeah, well I’m not them and am not interested in being like them.
    They show up at every political rally and town meeting held by anyone to the left of Himmler with weaponry expressly designed to kill their enemies.
    Sucks to be them. If I was that fearful I’d look into going on some kind of medication.
    Listen, it’s going to be a little difficult getting this Civil War into the hot zone with all of this good will toward men.
    I’m not interested in shooting people over tax policy. I just want them to stop making crappy tax policy.
    What do you think we are building that wall for???
    LOL.
    Hostile armies are massing on our borders. They want to invade and pick our vegetables for $10 an hour.

  743. What do you think we are building that wall for???
    LOL.
    Yeah, I was laughing as I wrote it. But seriously, am I wrong about how Trump and his fans see things? I wish I was, but I sure wouldn’t bet the ranch on it.

  744. What do you think we are building that wall for???
    LOL.
    Yeah, I was laughing as I wrote it. But seriously, am I wrong about how Trump and his fans see things? I wish I was, but I sure wouldn’t bet the ranch on it.

  749. A tax question here:
    Suppose Apu Nahassapeemapetilon clears $100K/year from running his Kwik-E-Mart, and Moe Sizlack clears $100K/year from running his bar. (Never mind where Homer gets all that money.) Neither Moe nor Apu qualify for reduced rates on their “pass-through” income because, as I understand the GOP tax scam, they do not employ other people.
    Now suppose that Apu sells the Kwik-E-Mart to Moe, and Moe sells the bar to Apu; they continue working at their current jobs as each other’s employees. Each of them pays the other $50K in wages, and pockets $50K of “pass-through” income.
    Could Lionel Hutz make a good case (for once) that they now both qualify for reduced rates on that second $50K? After all, it’s “pass-through” income from a “small business” that has “payroll”.
    Aside for providing gainful employment to Lionel Hutz, how does this sort of tax “simplification” grow The Economy or make Homer better off?
    –TP

  750. A tax question here:
    Suppose Apu Nahassapeemapetilon clears $100K/year from running his Kwik-E-Mart, and Moe Sizlack clears $100K/year from running his bar. (Never mind where Homer gets all that money.) Neither Moe nor Apu qualify for reduced rates on their “pass-through” income because, as I understand the GOP tax scam, they do not employ other people.
    Now suppose that Apu sells the Kwik-E-Mart to Moe, and Moe sells the bar to Apu; they continue working at their current jobs as each other’s employees. Each of them pays the other $50K in wages, and pockets $50K of “pass-through” income.
    Could Lionel Hutz make a good case (for once) that they now both qualify for reduced rates on that second $50K? After all, it’s “pass-through” income from a “small business” that has “payroll”.
    Aside for providing gainful employment to Lionel Hutz, how does this sort of tax “simplification” grow The Economy or make Homer better off?
    –TP

  753. HSH – I think in the bill, yes.
    Tony P – that might work, but would be subject to challenge.
    Russell – yep, if I were in law school, I would start taking as many tax courses as possible.

  754. HSH – I think in the bill, yes.
    Tony P – that might work, but would be subject to challenge.
    Russell – yep, if I were in law school, I would start taking as many tax courses as possible.

  755. I’ve got 10 bucks says that the Republicans in Congress would absolutely be against it.
    Certainly the right extremists would, and they would defect (goodbye filibuster override), ending Marty’s cynically sarcastic suggestion for the Dems to essentially surrender to GOP terms wrt ‘tax cuts’ for those middle class volk.
    Personally, I’d rather see wages go up, because that would raise both living standards and tax revenue. You’ll never get there handing rich assholes more money, because they will squander it on fake art, slow race horses, and self-destructing financial toys….give to workers you say? Are you ‘effing nutz?

  756. I’ve got 10 bucks says that the Republicans in Congress would absolutely be against it.
    Certainly the right extremists would, and they would defect (goodbye filibuster override), ending Marty’s cynically sarcastic suggestion for the Dems to essentially surrender to GOP terms wrt ‘tax cuts’ for those middle class volk.
    Personally, I’d rather see wages go up, because that would raise both living standards and tax revenue. You’ll never get there handing rich assholes more money, because they will squander it on fake art, slow race horses, and self-destructing financial toys….give to workers you say? Are you ‘effing nutz?

  757. Ugh, I just looked for it, and it appears that SALT are mentioned as being distinct from property taxes. I’m going to look into it further, because I’m fully prepared to borrow the money for my 2018 property taxes (NJ – $10k+).

  758. Ugh, I just looked for it, and it appears that SALT are mentioned as being distinct from property taxes. I’m going to look into it further, because I’m fully prepared to borrow the money for my 2018 property taxes (NJ – $10k+).

  765. I actually read the CNBC article first and thought it was vague. It’s explicit about SALT, but mentions property taxes without definitively saying you can’t pay them early.

  766. I actually read the CNBC article first and thought it was vague. It’s explicit about SALT, but mentions property taxes without definitively saying you can’t pay them early.

  767. Sorry HSH, looking at the explanation of the Bill it does only refer to SALT income taxes, not property taxes.
    Don’t forget the individual AMT is still in effect for 2017, in case that impacts your itemized deductions.

  768. Sorry HSH, looking at the explanation of the Bill it does only refer to SALT income taxes, not property taxes.
    Don’t forget the individual AMT is still in effect for 2017, in case that impacts your itemized deductions.

  769. I’m not fancy enough for ATM. I only pay as high of property taxes because of the state I live in. I wouldn’t go so far as to say I’m house-poor, but I’m certainly house-constrained.

  770. I’m not fancy enough for ATM. I only pay as high of property taxes because of the state I live in. I wouldn’t go so far as to say I’m house-poor, but I’m certainly house-constrained.

  771. In any case, I’m waiting until the thing passes before doing anything. Fortunately, I can move rather quickly thereafter.

  772. In any case, I’m waiting until the thing passes before doing anything. Fortunately, I can move rather quickly thereafter.

  773. I don’t wish the (R)’s ill personally
    I do but not the same amount for each and every one of them. Let’s start with a non-treatable itching skin rash for the lighter cases going up to (non-lethal but also incurable) necrotizing fasciitis for the leaders of the band. And permanent birth pangs grade pain for The Newt (and may he reach 100 years of age with it). Locked-in syndrome should be the proper fate for The Donald.
    We should all start to regularly deposit some of these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_tablet (best in the water coolers at their offices)

  774. I don’t wish the (R)’s ill personally
    I do but not the same amount for each and every one of them. Let’s start with a non-treatable itching skin rash for the lighter cases going up to (non-lethal but also incurable) necrotizing fasciitis for the leaders of the band. And permanent birth pangs grade pain for The Newt (and may he reach 100 years of age with it). Locked-in syndrome should be the proper fate for The Donald.
    We should all start to regularly deposit some of these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_tablet (best in the water coolers at their offices)

  775. Dragging us, kicking and screaming, back to the original topic. We have an election result:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/democrat-wins-va-house-seat-in-recount-by-single-vote-creating-50-50-tie-in-legislature/2017/12/19/3ff227ae-e43e-11e7-ab50-621fe0588340_story.html?utm_term=.915b8f690d72
    In Virginia’s back in the beginning of November, the final recount has resulted in a seat in the House of Delegates being decided by a single (1!) vote. And, in turn, leaves the House of Delegates with an equal number of Democrats and Republicans.
    A single vote! Something to ponder, the next time you are contemplating writing in someone to send a message (as opposed to because the candidates really are equally terrible).

  776. Dragging us, kicking and screaming, back to the original topic. We have an election result:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/democrat-wins-va-house-seat-in-recount-by-single-vote-creating-50-50-tie-in-legislature/2017/12/19/3ff227ae-e43e-11e7-ab50-621fe0588340_story.html?utm_term=.915b8f690d72
    In Virginia’s back in the beginning of November, the final recount has resulted in a seat in the House of Delegates being decided by a single (1!) vote. And, in turn, leaves the House of Delegates with an equal number of Democrats and Republicans.
    A single vote! Something to ponder, the next time you are contemplating writing in someone to send a message (as opposed to because the candidates really are equally terrible).

  781. I am waiting to see if (and perhaps already if) Schumer raises a point of order that a bill came out of the conference committee, and the House voted on it, and the Senate didn’t consider that bill which would have died because it didn’t conform to reconciliation rules. At the least, it would force the Republicans to admit that they are in such a hurry that they are willing to play fast and loose with the rules.

  782. I am waiting to see if (and perhaps already if) Schumer raises a point of order that a bill came out of the conference committee, and the House voted on it, and the Senate didn’t consider that bill which would have died because it didn’t conform to reconciliation rules. At the least, it would force the Republicans to admit that they are in such a hurry that they are willing to play fast and loose with the rules.

  783. Thanks, Ugh. From WSJ:
    Tax specialists are also urging many clients to pay the balance due of 2017 state income taxes before Jan. 1 and to consider paying 2018 property taxes that will exceed next year’s limit.
    This is a not-so-great thing to tell people. It doesn’t matter if your property taxes exceed $10K. If you aren’t going to itemize next year because you won’t exceed the standard deduction, there is no tax benefit in paying next year’s property taxes next year in any amount, but there very likely will be in paying that same amount before the end of this year (as your 2017 final tax is concerned).

  784. Thanks, Ugh. From WSJ:
    Tax specialists are also urging many clients to pay the balance due of 2017 state income taxes before Jan. 1 and to consider paying 2018 property taxes that will exceed next year’s limit.
    This is a not-so-great thing to tell people. It doesn’t matter if your property taxes exceed $10K. If you aren’t going to itemize next year because you won’t exceed the standard deduction, there is no tax benefit in paying next year’s property taxes next year in any amount, but there very likely will be in paying that same amount before the end of this year (as your 2017 final tax is concerned).

  785. And, really, that’s part of the ruse in the so-called compromise in allowing up to $10K in local, state, and property taxes to be deducted. Once you’ve capped it at that amount, and given the increased standard deduction, it’s irrelevant to the vast majority of people.

  786. And, really, that’s part of the ruse in the so-called compromise in allowing up to $10K in local, state, and property taxes to be deducted. Once you’ve capped it at that amount, and given the increased standard deduction, it’s irrelevant to the vast majority of people.

  787. russell: I’m not interested in shooting people over tax policy.
    I’ve been thinking this over since I read it, and I have to say:
    1) Neither am I; and
    2) Neither russell nor I are Patrick Henry material.
    OTOH, “tax policy” is practically the whole ball game in a civilized society. “Tax policy” can have life-or-death consequences for flesh and blood humans. It can make the difference between social mobility and entrenched aristocracy. It can distort Society as well as The Economy.
    At some point, patriotism can in fact require “shooting people”. But you need guns for that, and the Americans who own the guns tend to be the suckers who back the crooks who pull off the tax heists.
    –TP

  788. russell: I’m not interested in shooting people over tax policy.
    I’ve been thinking this over since I read it, and I have to say:
    1) Neither am I; and
    2) Neither russell nor I are Patrick Henry material.
    OTOH, “tax policy” is practically the whole ball game in a civilized society. “Tax policy” can have life-or-death consequences for flesh and blood humans. It can make the difference between social mobility and entrenched aristocracy. It can distort Society as well as The Economy.
    At some point, patriotism can in fact require “shooting people”. But you need guns for that, and the Americans who own the guns tend to be the suckers who back the crooks who pull off the tax heists.
    –TP

  789. It can distort Society as well as The Economy
    I would say it already is, and has, distorted society.
    What I generally see in our history is that great advances are usually not made by force of arms. there are exceptions, but as a rule we’ve done better by other means.
    I’m not really a pacificist, and I recognize that there are situations where folks have to, literally, fight. I don’t see this as one of those situations.

  790. It can distort Society as well as The Economy
    I would say it already is, and has, distorted society.
    What I generally see in our history is that great advances are usually not made by force of arms. there are exceptions, but as a rule we’ve done better by other means.
    I’m not really a pacificist, and I recognize that there are situations where folks have to, literally, fight. I don’t see this as one of those situations.

  791. But, Russell, the real question isn’t whether you (or I) think it’s worth fighting over. The question is whether it is reasonable to suspect that some significant portion of the population will reach the point where they do think it is.
    And there is, I think, some cause to think that might happen. Probably not enough to come close to anything anyone would consider a successful revolution. But enough to make an enormous mess.

  792. But, Russell, the real question isn’t whether you (or I) think it’s worth fighting over. The question is whether it is reasonable to suspect that some significant portion of the population will reach the point where they do think it is.
    And there is, I think, some cause to think that might happen. Probably not enough to come close to anything anyone would consider a successful revolution. But enough to make an enormous mess.

  793. Sweet Home New Jersey:
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/republicans-tax-bill-worsens-their-2018-suburban-crisis
    “I’m not really a pacificist, and I recognize that there are situations where folks have to, literally, fight. I don’t see this as one of those situations.”
    That pretty much sums me up too. The real me. The fake news me, though, is convincing the real me that we are approaching a situation here where I question the fundamental legitimacy of the thugs governing me and the tax bill is one mere element.
    I’m beginning to think the very act of these ilk governing me is a capital crime and they should stop if they know what’s good for them.
    I don’t want to play the America game anymore, especially given the fact that a couple of Presidential elections in this century have stolen my electoral franchise, and a third …. the 2012 election of Obama … was basically and illegally reversed by crooked Congressional rule finagling to thwart the norms of Supreme Court Judge selection.
    In any other area of life, like say a baseball game, when the rules are fucked with so blatantly, we fight and the game is canceled on account of danger to the public.
    But it’s a funny sort of attitude, this reticence over violent change, for citizens of a country forged in its birth through savage violence over tax policy and refreshed during the Civil War and various rebellions.
    I’m not in favor of violent change, but neither am I afraid of it at my age, but the opposition seems to think its part and parcel of how America works, given their waving around of the Second Amendment to threaten watering the tree of Liberty every two years and four years.

  794. Sweet Home New Jersey:
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/republicans-tax-bill-worsens-their-2018-suburban-crisis
    “I’m not really a pacificist, and I recognize that there are situations where folks have to, literally, fight. I don’t see this as one of those situations.”
    That pretty much sums me up too. The real me. The fake news me, though, is convincing the real me that we are approaching a situation here where I question the fundamental legitimacy of the thugs governing me and the tax bill is one mere element.
    I’m beginning to think the very act of these ilk governing me is a capital crime and they should stop if they know what’s good for them.
    I don’t want to play the America game anymore, especially given the fact that a couple of Presidential elections in this century have stolen my electoral franchise, and a third …. the 2012 election of Obama … was basically and illegally reversed by crooked Congressional rule finagling to thwart the norms of Supreme Court Judge selection.
    In any other area of life, like say a baseball game, when the rules are fucked with so blatantly, we fight and the game is canceled on account of danger to the public.
    But it’s a funny sort of attitude, this reticence over violent change, for citizens of a country forged in its birth through savage violence over tax policy and refreshed during the Civil War and various rebellions.
    I’m not in favor of violent change, but neither am I afraid of it at my age, but the opposition seems to think its part and parcel of how America works, given their waving around of the Second Amendment to threaten watering the tree of Liberty every two years and four years.

  795. I do but not the same amount for each and every one of them. Let’s start with a non-treatable itching skin rash for the lighter cases going up to (non-lethal but also incurable) necrotizing fasciitis for the leaders of the band. And permanent birth pangs grade pain for The Newt (and may he reach 100 years of age with it). Locked-in syndrome should be the proper fate for The Donald.
    I have to say, and not for the first time, I have a lot of sympathy for Hartmut’s baroque ideas of karma/retribution.

  796. I do but not the same amount for each and every one of them. Let’s start with a non-treatable itching skin rash for the lighter cases going up to (non-lethal but also incurable) necrotizing fasciitis for the leaders of the band. And permanent birth pangs grade pain for The Newt (and may he reach 100 years of age with it). Locked-in syndrome should be the proper fate for The Donald.
    I have to say, and not for the first time, I have a lot of sympathy for Hartmut’s baroque ideas of karma/retribution.

  799. we are approaching a situation here where I question the fundamental legitimacy of the thugs governing me
    between voter suppression and gerrymandering, IMO this is a legitimate complaint. not to mention two presidents within 20 years who failed to win the popular vote.
    I’m fine with preserving the rights of the minority. I’m not fine with minority rule, which is what we have now. We need to figue out how to square that circle.
    Lately I feel like I’m putting up with horrendous BS for the sake of not breaking important stuff. That approach has a certain shelf life – at some point, the “important stuff” becomes “the stuff that is no longr working”.

  800. we are approaching a situation here where I question the fundamental legitimacy of the thugs governing me
    between voter suppression and gerrymandering, IMO this is a legitimate complaint. not to mention two presidents within 20 years who failed to win the popular vote.
    I’m fine with preserving the rights of the minority. I’m not fine with minority rule, which is what we have now. We need to figue out how to square that circle.
    Lately I feel like I’m putting up with horrendous BS for the sake of not breaking important stuff. That approach has a certain shelf life – at some point, the “important stuff” becomes “the stuff that is no longr working”.

  801. TP: At some point, patriotism can in fact require “shooting people”. But you need guns for that, and the Americans who own the guns tend to be the suckers who back the crooks who pull off the tax heists.
    Trotsky:(something like) The only revolutionary question is “Who has the Army?” (which was very specific and local in 1917 St Pete, and usually will be)
    The forces of reaction and oppression will always have the guns, until the guns switch sides. The guns, understanding violence, will not switch sides until the revolutionary sides accepts them, and accepts violence, and can and will protect them. With numbers, solidarity, and support, like the women carrying ammo to the barricades in the Paris Commune.
    The Army and Police will not join a side that will not fight, that will not kill or die.
    A Revolutionary Left needs a Cause worth killing and dying for, and permission to use violence.
    Violence can be preliminarily defined broadly, as “breaking the rules.” Breaking the Law. Breaking Windows. Marching without permission. Occupying. Striking. See Sorel and Luxemburg on the General Strike.
    Watch Gandhi make Salt. Part of the foundation of the State is to determine that certain pre-violent or extra-legal activity is not defined as violence. Cops shooting blacks non violence; drones not violent; breaking windows and property destruction violence.
    Anyway, more more. Mao a little different. Sure the Left should get and learn guns, but they will never have enough. What the Left has to do is turn the Police and Army away from shooting us, but not by threat of State or Law. We will never have that.

  802. TP: At some point, patriotism can in fact require “shooting people”. But you need guns for that, and the Americans who own the guns tend to be the suckers who back the crooks who pull off the tax heists.
    Trotsky:(something like) The only revolutionary question is “Who has the Army?” (which was very specific and local in 1917 St Pete, and usually will be)
    The forces of reaction and oppression will always have the guns, until the guns switch sides. The guns, understanding violence, will not switch sides until the revolutionary sides accepts them, and accepts violence, and can and will protect them. With numbers, solidarity, and support, like the women carrying ammo to the barricades in the Paris Commune.
    The Army and Police will not join a side that will not fight, that will not kill or die.
    A Revolutionary Left needs a Cause worth killing and dying for, and permission to use violence.
    Violence can be preliminarily defined broadly, as “breaking the rules.” Breaking the Law. Breaking Windows. Marching without permission. Occupying. Striking. See Sorel and Luxemburg on the General Strike.
    Watch Gandhi make Salt. Part of the foundation of the State is to determine that certain pre-violent or extra-legal activity is not defined as violence. Cops shooting blacks non violence; drones not violent; breaking windows and property destruction violence.
    Anyway, more more. Mao a little different. Sure the Left should get and learn guns, but they will never have enough. What the Left has to do is turn the Police and Army away from shooting us, but not by threat of State or Law. We will never have that.

  805. PS: #Metoo, and the outing, shaming, and expulsion of serial harassers and abusers is in a way an example of extra-legal non-state violence, of how radical social change works. Matt Damon desiring fairness and due process is entirely missing the point.
    Part o what is going on is that women understand that violence is not only the hand meeting fanny, but the constant threat and atmosphere of possible touchings. Power mostly manifests in covert threats.
    Metoo’s threat is what, exclusion? Think about how they get what they want, and then think about how we cam make Police and Army fear it.

  806. PS: #Metoo, and the outing, shaming, and expulsion of serial harassers and abusers is in a way an example of extra-legal non-state violence, of how radical social change works. Matt Damon desiring fairness and due process is entirely missing the point.
    Part o what is going on is that women understand that violence is not only the hand meeting fanny, but the constant threat and atmosphere of possible touchings. Power mostly manifests in covert threats.
    Metoo’s threat is what, exclusion? Think about how they get what they want, and then think about how we cam make Police and Army fear it.

  807. Revolutionary violence has a poor record. People on the far left sometimes like to imagine how things might have turned out, but it would be nice to have some actual unambiguous successes involving happy endings.

  808. Revolutionary violence has a poor record. People on the far left sometimes like to imagine how things might have turned out, but it would be nice to have some actual unambiguous successes involving happy endings.

  809. If you are talking about Me too or things like that, that is a nonviolent social revolution. Not the same thing as picking up a gun.
    A general strike would also be nonviolent, though it could turn violent, probably because of a government reaction.

  810. If you are talking about Me too or things like that, that is a nonviolent social revolution. Not the same thing as picking up a gun.
    A general strike would also be nonviolent, though it could turn violent, probably because of a government reaction.

  811. If you are talking about Me too or things like that, that is a nonviolent social revolution.
    I disagree. We tend to define “violence and threat of violence” in ways that are flattering and comforting, and reinforce hegemonies. Exile and exclusion are non-violent?
    Maybe I speak in metaphor and metonymy.
    When you are facing the cop, always remember the cop has a (social, we all do) gun at the back of his head. Is the cop scared that he himself will get shot, or more scared that his partner will get shot? Are people motivated by self-protection, or protection of “families,” and fear of exile and exclusion?
    Apparently no women ever never slept with Weinstein to get a part. Streep is all defensive about what she didn’t know. Solidarity is not only a joy, solidarity is a weapon. #Metoo is mostly about women looking at each other, and judging. The very worst thing for solidarity is betrayal, and that is why we never hear of the women that went along. It is unthinkable at this point in the movement.
    Always remember, the Power you are facing has a gun at the back of its head. You can see both.

  812. If you are talking about Me too or things like that, that is a nonviolent social revolution.
    I disagree. We tend to define “violence and threat of violence” in ways that are flattering and comforting, and reinforce hegemonies. Exile and exclusion are non-violent?
    Maybe I speak in metaphor and metonymy.
    When you are facing the cop, always remember the cop has a (social, we all do) gun at the back of his head. Is the cop scared that he himself will get shot, or more scared that his partner will get shot? Are people motivated by self-protection, or protection of “families,” and fear of exile and exclusion?
    Apparently no women ever never slept with Weinstein to get a part. Streep is all defensive about what she didn’t know. Solidarity is not only a joy, solidarity is a weapon. #Metoo is mostly about women looking at each other, and judging. The very worst thing for solidarity is betrayal, and that is why we never hear of the women that went along. It is unthinkable at this point in the movement.
    Always remember, the Power you are facing has a gun at the back of its head. You can see both.

  823. Back in the days of Reagan, it was plausible to see the Republican party as mostly well-meaning people who I disagreed with about stuff.
    Not any more. It’s now a coalition of the rich and their toadies, with a political strategy of gerrymandering, procedural cheating, and tricking enough stupid people into voting for them to put them in power under the USA’s rather broken system. Which power they use to feed the rich, to bend the electoral system further in their favour, and to reward the states which vote for them by increasing transfers to them from the states which don’t.
    The Democrats need to stop ignoring this strategy. When next they get power, which they soon will, they need to be ready with constitutional reforms. I suggest the following:
    – all electoral boundaries to be drawn by non-partisan commissions, following clear guidelines
    – all adults to be issued with free ID (call it a driver’s license if you like) which has to be accepted for voting
    – exclude corporations from first-amendment rights
    – reform the electoral college to make votes roughly proportional to state populations, i.e. take out the one vote per senator provision. The small states are helped enough by being overrepresented in the Senate.
    – pass a budget undoing most of the current budget (if it passes), with the general aim of taxing rich individuals (corporations can keep their tax cut if you tax their distributions to shareholders). Make Mitt Romney and Donald Trump pay a fair tax rate.
    – tighten up the laws on politicians conducting business for gain
    – and more
    Some of this would require changes to the constitution. Some of it would be challenged in the Supreme Court. I don’t care, try to do what’s right and make the Republicans and their judges explain why they want to do wrong.

  824. Back in the days of Reagan, it was plausible to see the Republican party as mostly well-meaning people who I disagreed with about stuff.
    Not any more. It’s now a coalition of the rich and their toadies, with a political strategy of gerrymandering, procedural cheating, and tricking enough stupid people into voting for them to put them in power under the USA’s rather broken system. Which power they use to feed the rich, to bend the electoral system further in their favour, and to reward the states which vote for them by increasing transfers to them from the states which don’t.
    The Democrats need to stop ignoring this strategy. When next they get power, which they soon will, they need to be ready with constitutional reforms. I suggest the following:
    – all electoral boundaries to be drawn by non-partisan commissions, following clear guidelines
    – all adults to be issued with free ID (call it a driver’s license if you like) which has to be accepted for voting
    – exclude corporations from first-amendment rights
    – reform the electoral college to make votes roughly proportional to state populations, i.e. take out the one vote per senator provision. The small states are helped enough by being overrepresented in the Senate.
    – pass a budget undoing most of the current budget (if it passes), with the general aim of taxing rich individuals (corporations can keep their tax cut if you tax their distributions to shareholders). Make Mitt Romney and Donald Trump pay a fair tax rate.
    – tighten up the laws on politicians conducting business for gain
    – and more
    Some of this would require changes to the constitution. Some of it would be challenged in the Supreme Court. I don’t care, try to do what’s right and make the Republicans and their judges explain why they want to do wrong.

  835. Is the clenched fist violence? Is the fist on its way one inch from the face non-violence, and only violence when it connects? C’mon, you the ones abusing language. The threat is violence, and how violence mostly works.
    I also think causing violence by others is violence, “suicide by cop” for instance. Rioting, robbing, and rampaging. You can’t divorce an action from its social setting and social expectations, and if you are sitdowning in the police station, you are causing the cops to grab and carry you.
    Part of the liberal gig is to outsource their violence, in part with shifty definitions. By defining politics and law as non-violent, they make resistance and illegality violent. Or conversely, making supposedly non-violent actions complicit and supportive of the State and Society. MLK wasn’t trying to break thing, but build things, amirite huh? Peace, brother.
    Power is violence. Making and getting others to do what you want is violence. The State and society or subsets thereof are violent, as long as any kind of internal or collective power differentials exist.
    I am ok fine with violence.

  836. Is the clenched fist violence? Is the fist on its way one inch from the face non-violence, and only violence when it connects? C’mon, you the ones abusing language. The threat is violence, and how violence mostly works.
    I also think causing violence by others is violence, “suicide by cop” for instance. Rioting, robbing, and rampaging. You can’t divorce an action from its social setting and social expectations, and if you are sitdowning in the police station, you are causing the cops to grab and carry you.
    Part of the liberal gig is to outsource their violence, in part with shifty definitions. By defining politics and law as non-violent, they make resistance and illegality violent. Or conversely, making supposedly non-violent actions complicit and supportive of the State and Society. MLK wasn’t trying to break thing, but build things, amirite huh? Peace, brother.
    Power is violence. Making and getting others to do what you want is violence. The State and society or subsets thereof are violent, as long as any kind of internal or collective power differentials exist.
    I am ok fine with violence.

  837. By denying that the threat of violence is violence, you are erasing women’s and black’s (and others, I am 5’2″) daily experience and feelings. I thought we had learned something.
    The 5 foot woman with the six foot stranger is justifiably scared, and his smile doesn’t really relieve.
    The answer is violence, to be the gun pointed at the back of that 6 footer’s head. So she can see us.

  838. By denying that the threat of violence is violence, you are erasing women’s and black’s (and others, I am 5’2″) daily experience and feelings. I thought we had learned something.
    The 5 foot woman with the six foot stranger is justifiably scared, and his smile doesn’t really relieve.
    The answer is violence, to be the gun pointed at the back of that 6 footer’s head. So she can see us.

  839. If I make a distinction between violence and the threat of violence, does that mean I’m necessarily suggesting that the treat of violence is acceptable?

  840. If I make a distinction between violence and the threat of violence, does that mean I’m necessarily suggesting that the treat of violence is acceptable?

  841. HSH,
    This is a not-so-great thing to tell people. It doesn’t matter if your property taxes exceed $10K. If you aren’t going to itemize next year because you won’t exceed the standard deduction, there is no tax benefit in paying next year’s property taxes next year in any amount, but there very likely will be in paying that same amount before the end of this year (as your 2017 final tax is concerned).
    Why “not-so-great?”
    It makes sense to me. I just paid the estimated balance on my 2017 MA taxes, and will pay property tax as soon as that is clarified. This gets me the deduction this year and means that in 2018 I will probably be better off taking the standard deduction.

  842. HSH,
    This is a not-so-great thing to tell people. It doesn’t matter if your property taxes exceed $10K. If you aren’t going to itemize next year because you won’t exceed the standard deduction, there is no tax benefit in paying next year’s property taxes next year in any amount, but there very likely will be in paying that same amount before the end of this year (as your 2017 final tax is concerned).
    Why “not-so-great?”
    It makes sense to me. I just paid the estimated balance on my 2017 MA taxes, and will pay property tax as soon as that is clarified. This gets me the deduction this year and means that in 2018 I will probably be better off taking the standard deduction.

  843. I’m beginning to think the very act of these ilk governing me is a capital crime and they should stop if they know what’s good for them.
    I think all of us here (including the real Count, if not the fake news Count — love that meme, by the way) are basically non-violent. But that doesn’t mean that I can’t envision a history paper, some time in the future, entitled “The Defenestration of the (GOP) Congress”.
    However I suspect what we will actually see is a reaction involving:
    a) voting out massive numbers of GOP Congressmen (and Senators), replacing them with folks who are as adamant as the “Freedom Caucus”, albeit in the opposite direction.
    b) reversal of the Trump Tax legislation.
    c) as a reaction, a huge step to the left, involving substantial increases in taxes on corporations and on the wealthy.
    d) a bunch of other “liberal” legislation (to the utter horror of the libertarians, even more than of any real conservatives).
    In short, those who have been “seizing the moment” to slash their own taxes are going, I suspect, to end up in far worse shape than they would have been had they been willing to take a compromise victory. I’m not certain, but I think “hubris” may be the right term for their position.

  844. I’m beginning to think the very act of these ilk governing me is a capital crime and they should stop if they know what’s good for them.
    I think all of us here (including the real Count, if not the fake news Count — love that meme, by the way) are basically non-violent. But that doesn’t mean that I can’t envision a history paper, some time in the future, entitled “The Defenestration of the (GOP) Congress”.
    However I suspect what we will actually see is a reaction involving:
    a) voting out massive numbers of GOP Congressmen (and Senators), replacing them with folks who are as adamant as the “Freedom Caucus”, albeit in the opposite direction.
    b) reversal of the Trump Tax legislation.
    c) as a reaction, a huge step to the left, involving substantial increases in taxes on corporations and on the wealthy.
    d) a bunch of other “liberal” legislation (to the utter horror of the libertarians, even more than of any real conservatives).
    In short, those who have been “seizing the moment” to slash their own taxes are going, I suspect, to end up in far worse shape than they would have been had they been willing to take a compromise victory. I’m not certain, but I think “hubris” may be the right term for their position.

  845. In that link of the Count’s (11:16), the author points out that Paul Ryan went to college on Social Security survivors benefits. And he asks:
    “Why didn’t his Social Security payments discourage his entrepreneurial spirit?”
    But obviously, they did. He has never started a business. Never been an executive or even a junior manager in someone else’s business. He’s just worked in the legislature his entire career (with, admittedly, some part-time jobs as things like a waiter or fitness trainer to make ends meet). Maybe he is against entitlements because he sees what a mess they have made of his life…?

  846. In that link of the Count’s (11:16), the author points out that Paul Ryan went to college on Social Security survivors benefits. And he asks:
    “Why didn’t his Social Security payments discourage his entrepreneurial spirit?”
    But obviously, they did. He has never started a business. Never been an executive or even a junior manager in someone else’s business. He’s just worked in the legislature his entire career (with, admittedly, some part-time jobs as things like a waiter or fitness trainer to make ends meet). Maybe he is against entitlements because he sees what a mess they have made of his life…?

  847. Part of what I try to do is open up space, make room.
    Pablo Iglesias of Podemos in Spain is pretty smart. Try reading something different today, other’s experience.
    “Ultimately, though, the maneuvers of the last few months have made this more difficult, with the pieces of the political chessboard now placed in a way that favors the Right. As we go forward, Podemos has to return to the type of intelligent strategies that allow for the creation of contradictions in our adversaries, taking advantage of internal tensions to break open the pro-regime bloc. Winning in politics is not merely about accumulating your own support, it is never a simple clash between two opposed forces. You have to be able to make other actors, who will continue to exist, move their positions and eventually become allies.”
    “Make other actors…move” does not involve begging or pleading, or even persuading.

  848. Part of what I try to do is open up space, make room.
    Pablo Iglesias of Podemos in Spain is pretty smart. Try reading something different today, other’s experience.
    “Ultimately, though, the maneuvers of the last few months have made this more difficult, with the pieces of the political chessboard now placed in a way that favors the Right. As we go forward, Podemos has to return to the type of intelligent strategies that allow for the creation of contradictions in our adversaries, taking advantage of internal tensions to break open the pro-regime bloc. Winning in politics is not merely about accumulating your own support, it is never a simple clash between two opposed forces. You have to be able to make other actors, who will continue to exist, move their positions and eventually become allies.”
    “Make other actors…move” does not involve begging or pleading, or even persuading.

  849. However I suspect what we will actually see is a reaction involving: (list)
    Not in my lifetime, I am afraid. 2009 was the last chance. Comments like this need to show me a path to 60+ center-left Senators. There is none. What we will get is Jones and Manchin, as long as progressives and conservatives want to live separately. Civil war, or neo-fascism much more likely.
    In others news, Obama has developed a great relationship with Prince Harry. Just kill me. Outahere.

  850. However I suspect what we will actually see is a reaction involving: (list)
    Not in my lifetime, I am afraid. 2009 was the last chance. Comments like this need to show me a path to 60+ center-left Senators. There is none. What we will get is Jones and Manchin, as long as progressives and conservatives want to live separately. Civil war, or neo-fascism much more likely.
    In others news, Obama has developed a great relationship with Prince Harry. Just kill me. Outahere.

  851. The biggest shift in how I view this country was after the implosion of the Soviet Union. It was heralded as the victory of capitalism.
    Not democracy, not republican governance, not the rule of law. Not self-government of, by, and for the people, through responsive and transparent institutions. Not the affirmation of basic, fundamental human and civil rights.
    Capitalism.
    We have actually lost the plot. We have come to conflate freedom with the license to make shitloads of money. We have come to conflate liberty with a refusal to acknowledge any sense of common public good or mutual responsibility or obligation.
    The values of self-reliance and initiative that conservatives tout – worthy as they are – have become a pretext for callousness and selfishness.
    It was other than this, in my own living memory. But for anyone who was born or came of age after about 1980, the way things are now is the norm.
    I actually do think it has significantly undermined our resilience as a nation, and may well be our undoing. Not that we’ll be invaded by foreign hordes, just that we’ll become increasingly half-assed and peripheral to the interests of everyone else in the world.
    That’s happening now.
    Really, I think the country, as a political entity, is rotting. Too much money, too much self-dealing. Public service is now a path to getting really, really, really filthy stinking rich, and it’s hard to not have your head turned by that even if your initial instincts were worthwhile. Even if you maintain your own integrity, you’re always swimming upstream in a river of crass fucking lucre.
    We have a POTUS who took the occasion of his inauguration to double to cost of membership at his private golf club. And nobody finds that worthy of comment, because it’s just a speck, a single grain of sand, in the overall pit of corrupt self-dealing.
    It can be turned around, the basic institutions needed to do that are still in place. But it will take a whole lot of people actually giving a shit. Showing up to vote, running for office, spending money. Getting involved.
    I don’t know if that will happen or not. So, I’m pessimistic.

  852. The biggest shift in how I view this country was after the implosion of the Soviet Union. It was heralded as the victory of capitalism.
    Not democracy, not republican governance, not the rule of law. Not self-government of, by, and for the people, through responsive and transparent institutions. Not the affirmation of basic, fundamental human and civil rights.
    Capitalism.
    We have actually lost the plot. We have come to conflate freedom with the license to make shitloads of money. We have come to conflate liberty with a refusal to acknowledge any sense of common public good or mutual responsibility or obligation.
    The values of self-reliance and initiative that conservatives tout – worthy as they are – have become a pretext for callousness and selfishness.
    It was other than this, in my own living memory. But for anyone who was born or came of age after about 1980, the way things are now is the norm.
    I actually do think it has significantly undermined our resilience as a nation, and may well be our undoing. Not that we’ll be invaded by foreign hordes, just that we’ll become increasingly half-assed and peripheral to the interests of everyone else in the world.
    That’s happening now.
    Really, I think the country, as a political entity, is rotting. Too much money, too much self-dealing. Public service is now a path to getting really, really, really filthy stinking rich, and it’s hard to not have your head turned by that even if your initial instincts were worthwhile. Even if you maintain your own integrity, you’re always swimming upstream in a river of crass fucking lucre.
    We have a POTUS who took the occasion of his inauguration to double to cost of membership at his private golf club. And nobody finds that worthy of comment, because it’s just a speck, a single grain of sand, in the overall pit of corrupt self-dealing.
    It can be turned around, the basic institutions needed to do that are still in place. But it will take a whole lot of people actually giving a shit. Showing up to vote, running for office, spending money. Getting involved.
    I don’t know if that will happen or not. So, I’m pessimistic.

  853. I think “hubris” may be the right term for their position.
    There’s actually a hell of a lot of hubris flying around right now.
    That’s usually Nemesis’ cue.

  854. I think “hubris” may be the right term for their position.
    There’s actually a hell of a lot of hubris flying around right now.
    That’s usually Nemesis’ cue.

  855. We have a POTUS who took the occasion of his inauguration to double to cost of membership at his private golf club.
    and who spends his weekends at his golf clubs, which he then charges the public for. and who hosts Presidential events at his golf clubs, which he then charges the public for.
    and the GOP is pleased as a pig in shit about it. not a whisper about it.
    because the GOP is a cult.
    not a whimper the scummy illegality of putting foreign heads of state up at his hotel (which he then charges the public for).
    because the GOP is a cult.

  856. We have a POTUS who took the occasion of his inauguration to double to cost of membership at his private golf club.
    and who spends his weekends at his golf clubs, which he then charges the public for. and who hosts Presidential events at his golf clubs, which he then charges the public for.
    and the GOP is pleased as a pig in shit about it. not a whisper about it.
    because the GOP is a cult.
    not a whimper the scummy illegality of putting foreign heads of state up at his hotel (which he then charges the public for).
    because the GOP is a cult.

  857. By denying that the threat of violence is violence, you are erasing women’s and black’s (and others, I am 5’2″) daily experience and feelings.
    FFS, there’s nothing violent about women outing sexual predators.

  858. By denying that the threat of violence is violence, you are erasing women’s and black’s (and others, I am 5’2″) daily experience and feelings.
    FFS, there’s nothing violent about women outing sexual predators.

  859. Comments like this need to show me a path to 60+ center-left Senators. There is none.
    Bob, that’s because your definition of “left” and “center-left” is way to the left of where I see it. Just as the reactionaries that make up a lot of the current GOP base call themselves “conservatives” when the furthest left of them is still way too far right to qualify. I guess it’s hard to have perspective when one is way out on the fringes.
    To your point, I don’t have a problem seeing 60+ Democratic Senators (leaving aside, for the moment, the possibility of a couple of Republican Senators voting with them). Who, while they wouldn’t remake the nation into your ideal, would still move us substantially to the left (actually, I would say, substantially back to the center) from where we are today.
    Now if your problem was that you don’t see a way to 60 Democrats, that would be different. But it seems like you are just unhappy with anything less than (your image of) perfect.

  860. Comments like this need to show me a path to 60+ center-left Senators. There is none.
    Bob, that’s because your definition of “left” and “center-left” is way to the left of where I see it. Just as the reactionaries that make up a lot of the current GOP base call themselves “conservatives” when the furthest left of them is still way too far right to qualify. I guess it’s hard to have perspective when one is way out on the fringes.
    To your point, I don’t have a problem seeing 60+ Democratic Senators (leaving aside, for the moment, the possibility of a couple of Republican Senators voting with them). Who, while they wouldn’t remake the nation into your ideal, would still move us substantially to the left (actually, I would say, substantially back to the center) from where we are today.
    Now if your problem was that you don’t see a way to 60 Democrats, that would be different. But it seems like you are just unhappy with anything less than (your image of) perfect.

  861. We have come to conflate freedom with the license to make shitloads of money. We have come to conflate liberty with a refusal to acknowledge any sense of common public good or mutual responsibility or obligation.
    “What do you mean we….” [truncated for political correctness] 😉
    Not arguing that there hasn’t been a lot of that. But I think that, while that view may generate a majority of the noise, it isn’t really the view of a majority of the population.

  862. We have come to conflate freedom with the license to make shitloads of money. We have come to conflate liberty with a refusal to acknowledge any sense of common public good or mutual responsibility or obligation.
    “What do you mean we….” [truncated for political correctness] 😉
    Not arguing that there hasn’t been a lot of that. But I think that, while that view may generate a majority of the noise, it isn’t really the view of a majority of the population.

  863. it isn’t really the view of a majority of the population.
    I completely agree with this.
    It is, however, and IMO, what drives public policy. To a degree far – very far – greater than what the actual humans who live here want.
    It does raise a question of legitimacy.

  864. it isn’t really the view of a majority of the population.
    I completely agree with this.
    It is, however, and IMO, what drives public policy. To a degree far – very far – greater than what the actual humans who live here want.
    It does raise a question of legitimacy.

  865. Why “not-so-great?”
    Because of the caveat that you should pay that portion in excess of the soon-to-be $10K limit. If you’re still going to itemize when filing your 2018 taxes, then that makes sense. But that only applies to a small percentage of people.
    It doesn’t apply to me, nor apparently to you. You and I are doing exactly the same thing, if I read you correctly.

  866. Why “not-so-great?”
    Because of the caveat that you should pay that portion in excess of the soon-to-be $10K limit. If you’re still going to itemize when filing your 2018 taxes, then that makes sense. But that only applies to a small percentage of people.
    It doesn’t apply to me, nor apparently to you. You and I are doing exactly the same thing, if I read you correctly.

  867. It is, however, and IMO, what drives public policy.
    Sadly, it is. But I can see a future where, while the volume may remain, the politicians have discovered (in some cases to their horror) that letting it drive their actions is a fast route to retirement.
    What that takes, of course, is a lot of folks who have been conned figuring out that they’ve been had. They may not even have to admit it to themselves; they just need to decide that they want something different — or, at least, someone different to get it.

  868. It is, however, and IMO, what drives public policy.
    Sadly, it is. But I can see a future where, while the volume may remain, the politicians have discovered (in some cases to their horror) that letting it drive their actions is a fast route to retirement.
    What that takes, of course, is a lot of folks who have been conned figuring out that they’ve been had. They may not even have to admit it to themselves; they just need to decide that they want something different — or, at least, someone different to get it.

  871. Who, while they wouldn’t remake the nation into your ideal, would still move us substantially to the left (actually, I would say, substantially back to the center) from where we are today.
    Your program, your center:
    b) reversal of the Trump Tax legislation.
    c) as a reaction, a huge step to the left, involving substantial increases in taxes on corporations and on the wealthy.
    And you really think 10 more Jones and Manchins will enact those?
    We saw what happened in 2009 and 2012. Massive tax cuts, and making the 80-90% of Bush cuts permanent.

  872. Who, while they wouldn’t remake the nation into your ideal, would still move us substantially to the left (actually, I would say, substantially back to the center) from where we are today.
    Your program, your center:
    b) reversal of the Trump Tax legislation.
    c) as a reaction, a huge step to the left, involving substantial increases in taxes on corporations and on the wealthy.
    And you really think 10 more Jones and Manchins will enact those?
    We saw what happened in 2009 and 2012. Massive tax cuts, and making the 80-90% of Bush cuts permanent.

  873. Pro Bono: … try to do what’s right and make the Republicans and their judges explain why they want to do wrong.
    Imagine that the Democrats had demanded raising the standard deduction to $50K over the past few months, instead of harping on the $1.5trillion-over-10-years bit. We all know that such a demand would not be “what’s right”.
    But the point would be to make the Republicans explain why. Make the Republicans explain, to people with median-and-below incomes, that they need to pay for the government so the rich won’t have to.
    Make the damned GOP explain that CHIP, or LIHEAP, or the goddamn Air Force, need money — but not rich people’s money. Make the Tea Party kooks explain why median-income Americans don’t deserve immediate “tax relief” — but the rich do. Even the “white working class” might have trouble swallowing the “explanation”.
    –TP

  874. Pro Bono: … try to do what’s right and make the Republicans and their judges explain why they want to do wrong.
    Imagine that the Democrats had demanded raising the standard deduction to $50K over the past few months, instead of harping on the $1.5trillion-over-10-years bit. We all know that such a demand would not be “what’s right”.
    But the point would be to make the Republicans explain why. Make the Republicans explain, to people with median-and-below incomes, that they need to pay for the government so the rich won’t have to.
    Make the damned GOP explain that CHIP, or LIHEAP, or the goddamn Air Force, need money — but not rich people’s money. Make the Tea Party kooks explain why median-income Americans don’t deserve immediate “tax relief” — but the rich do. Even the “white working class” might have trouble swallowing the “explanation”.
    –TP

  875. I don’t think GOP politicians are ia cult. They are getting exactly what they want for their donor class. They might prefer someone mentally stable as president, but everyone is a lesser evilist. If Trump starts to become more of a liability and if it becomes less risky for their own future to come out against him, they will dump him for a Pence or a healthy version of McCain, someone who favors most of the same policies without the Trumpian eccentricities.
    And some Democrats will be with them.

  876. I don’t think GOP politicians are ia cult. They are getting exactly what they want for their donor class. They might prefer someone mentally stable as president, but everyone is a lesser evilist. If Trump starts to become more of a liability and if it becomes less risky for their own future to come out against him, they will dump him for a Pence or a healthy version of McCain, someone who favors most of the same policies without the Trumpian eccentricities.
    And some Democrats will be with them.

  879. And you really think 10 more Jones and Manchins will enact those?
    Actually, yes I do. The deficit is going to shoot up sufficiently as a result of the Trump Tax change that it will be a choice between (Ryan’s Hope) slashing entitlements, or (sanity) kicking taxes back up. And I doubt anybody thinks that the Democrats will go for slashing Medicaid, let alone Medicare or Social Security.

  880. And you really think 10 more Jones and Manchins will enact those?
    Actually, yes I do. The deficit is going to shoot up sufficiently as a result of the Trump Tax change that it will be a choice between (Ryan’s Hope) slashing entitlements, or (sanity) kicking taxes back up. And I doubt anybody thinks that the Democrats will go for slashing Medicaid, let alone Medicare or Social Security.

  887. And I doubt anybody thinks that the Democrats will go for slashing Medicaid, let alone Medicare or Social Security.
    Ever heard of the “Grand Bargain”?
    It was conservative Dems that killed the Public Option and iirc quite a few joined the GOP chorus concerning the stimulus, so it became more and more tax-cutty. 60 Dem senators mean nothing, if there are blue dogs among them.
    As for ‘forcing the GOP to explain’, those who we would need the GOP to explain it to don’t read SCOTUS decisions or consume media that would give them an honest translation of the legal gobbledegoo.
    Roy Moore lost only because the number of write-ins slightly exceeded Jones’ margin of victory and that in a situation where opinion leaders openly said ‘better a child molester than a Dem’ (i.e. even assuming every charge against Moore was valid).
    I think the test case will be how the current SCOTUS will rule in the next voter suppression/gerrymander case. My bet is a 5-4 green light in time for the next election for some new and improved ‘vote integrity’ scams.
    An all of this supposes that nothing nasty happens that will drive the people to the ‘strong on national security’ GOP and away from the ‘appeasers’ (Dems).

  888. And I doubt anybody thinks that the Democrats will go for slashing Medicaid, let alone Medicare or Social Security.
    Ever heard of the “Grand Bargain”?
    It was conservative Dems that killed the Public Option and iirc quite a few joined the GOP chorus concerning the stimulus, so it became more and more tax-cutty. 60 Dem senators mean nothing, if there are blue dogs among them.
    As for ‘forcing the GOP to explain’, those who we would need the GOP to explain it to don’t read SCOTUS decisions or consume media that would give them an honest translation of the legal gobbledegoo.
    Roy Moore lost only because the number of write-ins slightly exceeded Jones’ margin of victory and that in a situation where opinion leaders openly said ‘better a child molester than a Dem’ (i.e. even assuming every charge against Moore was valid).
    I think the test case will be how the current SCOTUS will rule in the next voter suppression/gerrymander case. My bet is a 5-4 green light in time for the next election for some new and improved ‘vote integrity’ scams.
    An all of this supposes that nothing nasty happens that will drive the people to the ‘strong on national security’ GOP and away from the ‘appeasers’ (Dems).

  889. speaking of rural broadband, have y’all heard about the FCC’s latest big idea?
    classify cell data as broadband internet!.
    problem solved!
    when we moved into our last house, it took months for us to get a working internet connection. so we had to use cell data for the internet. lemme tell ya: it sucked.
    if you’re in the country so far that you don’t have cable, you’re probably not going to be getting great cell service either.

  890. speaking of rural broadband, have y’all heard about the FCC’s latest big idea?
    classify cell data as broadband internet!.
    problem solved!
    when we moved into our last house, it took months for us to get a working internet connection. so we had to use cell data for the internet. lemme tell ya: it sucked.
    if you’re in the country so far that you don’t have cable, you’re probably not going to be getting great cell service either.

  893. Hartmut: As for ‘forcing the GOP to explain’, those who we would need the GOP to explain it to don’t read SCOTUS decisions or consume media that would give them an honest translation of the legal gobbledegoo.
    “The Republicans gave you a tax cut worth $20 a week. We Democrats demanded that it should be $100 a week. The Republicans refused. Ask them why.”
    Where’s the “legal gobbledegoo”?
    –TP

  894. Hartmut: As for ‘forcing the GOP to explain’, those who we would need the GOP to explain it to don’t read SCOTUS decisions or consume media that would give them an honest translation of the legal gobbledegoo.
    “The Republicans gave you a tax cut worth $20 a week. We Democrats demanded that it should be $100 a week. The Republicans refused. Ask them why.”
    Where’s the “legal gobbledegoo”?
    –TP

  897. “those who feel like all Republicans at every level are irredeemable”:
    Truth be told, and just between we two, there were a few good Comanche too. But, in America, as we’ve been preached to these many years, inclusivity is “politically correct”. It makes it easier to take what you want, including the land out from under, if you demonize entire groups of people. You want to get rid of the riff, you need to do away with the raff too. No getting around it in America.
    It hadda be done.
    Republicans made themselves and all of their fellow travelers the “Other” by purposefully labeling everyone else the “Other” all these years.
    But I’m gratified to hear about the Assemblywoman.
    As is suggested to shit-outta-a-luck everyone by conservatives and neo-liberals when, for example, their coastal abodes are flooded by global warming, their manufacturing jobs move overseas, or their rent-controlled apartment building are gentrified, the Assemblywoman can always move out of the republican party to more affordable and drier digs where jobs might be available.
    Otherwise, tough luck.
    In this vein and since we were talking the other day about superior attitudes toward the west and south by them elites on either coast, but especially the Northeast, here’s a little back at ya (quoted from “Vanishing New York” by Jeremiah Moss):
    “When Al Smith. the Italian-Irish Governor of from the Lower East Side, campaigned for U.S. president in 1928, the Heartland rose against him as a Catholic, the son of immigrants, and a New Yorker. The Ku Klux Klan burned crosses on the tracks when his train came to their towns, and they warned constituents to be ready for Smith’s arrival, crying “America for Americans!” In publications, they howled about the Roman Catholic “alien hordes” that has “invaded America”, determined to destroy democracy. “Already they have captured many large cities.” And no city had been more corrupted by alien hordes than New York. From his radio pulpit, Rev. John Roach Straton denounced Smith, accusing him of everything the Protestant American Heartland believed was wrong with New York: “card-playing, cocktail drinking, poodle dogs, divorce, novels, stuffy rooms, dancing, evolution, Clarence Darrow, overeating, nude art, prize-fighting, actors, modernism.”
    Sound like a list Pat Buchanan and Rod Dreher drew up yesterday.

  898. “those who feel like all Republicans at every level are irredeemable”:
    Truth be told, and just between we two, there were a few good Comanche too. But, in America, as we’ve been preached to these many years, inclusivity is “politically correct”. It makes it easier to take what you want, including the land out from under, if you demonize entire groups of people. You want to get rid of the riff, you need to do away with the raff too. No getting around it in America.
    It hadda be done.
    Republicans made themselves and all of their fellow travelers the “Other” by purposefully labeling everyone else the “Other” all these years.
    But I’m gratified to hear about the Assemblywoman.
    As is suggested to shit-outta-a-luck everyone by conservatives and neo-liberals when, for example, their coastal abodes are flooded by global warming, their manufacturing jobs move overseas, or their rent-controlled apartment building are gentrified, the Assemblywoman can always move out of the republican party to more affordable and drier digs where jobs might be available.
    Otherwise, tough luck.
    In this vein and since we were talking the other day about superior attitudes toward the west and south by them elites on either coast, but especially the Northeast, here’s a little back at ya (quoted from “Vanishing New York” by Jeremiah Moss):
    “When Al Smith. the Italian-Irish Governor of from the Lower East Side, campaigned for U.S. president in 1928, the Heartland rose against him as a Catholic, the son of immigrants, and a New Yorker. The Ku Klux Klan burned crosses on the tracks when his train came to their towns, and they warned constituents to be ready for Smith’s arrival, crying “America for Americans!” In publications, they howled about the Roman Catholic “alien hordes” that has “invaded America”, determined to destroy democracy. “Already they have captured many large cities.” And no city had been more corrupted by alien hordes than New York. From his radio pulpit, Rev. John Roach Straton denounced Smith, accusing him of everything the Protestant American Heartland believed was wrong with New York: “card-playing, cocktail drinking, poodle dogs, divorce, novels, stuffy rooms, dancing, evolution, Clarence Darrow, overeating, nude art, prize-fighting, actors, modernism.”
    Sound like a list Pat Buchanan and Rod Dreher drew up yesterday.

  901. FFS, there’s nothing violent about women outing sexual predators.
    Okay, they are angry, they intend to hurt, they take action, assholes are hurt, the initiators enjoy the hurting. It may or may not be a just or justified violence, but saying as an observable action it is entirely different from a comparable action is just Orwellian. It’s pretty weird to define a punch in the face as a kiss because it comes from the good guy.
    Watched Liliom this year that ended with that line, or close to it. “He punched me in the face and it felt like a kiss.”

  902. FFS, there’s nothing violent about women outing sexual predators.
    Okay, they are angry, they intend to hurt, they take action, assholes are hurt, the initiators enjoy the hurting. It may or may not be a just or justified violence, but saying as an observable action it is entirely different from a comparable action is just Orwellian. It’s pretty weird to define a punch in the face as a kiss because it comes from the good guy.
    Watched Liliom this year that ended with that line, or close to it. “He punched me in the face and it felt like a kiss.”

  903. …but saying as an observable action it is entirely different from a comparable action is just Orwellian. It’s pretty weird to define a punch in the face as a kiss because it comes from the good guy.
    Entirely different? Or just appreciably different? I don’t see anyone defining a punch as a kiss. “Not a punch” doesn’t equal “a kiss.”

  904. …but saying as an observable action it is entirely different from a comparable action is just Orwellian. It’s pretty weird to define a punch in the face as a kiss because it comes from the good guy.
    Entirely different? Or just appreciably different? I don’t see anyone defining a punch as a kiss. “Not a punch” doesn’t equal “a kiss.”

  905. “Novels”
    Hidden in the corn crib, no less!
    Yer out-a-town jasper writers tend to sneak in a joke or two from Captain Willy’s Whizbang too, if you don’t watch ’em with an eagle eye.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI_Oe-jtgdI
    Meredith Wilson, the genius, grew up in Mason City, Iowa, and being a quintessential American he took the train thru flyover heartland country to both coasts and made his success, and the heartland didn’t seem to mind, given the box office receipts.
    Now, of course, he’d be a suspect and accused darkly of contempt for his upbringing and a traitor to his class.
    Immigrants like Michelle Malkin and Pat Buchanan would question his American bonafides and want to inspect his countertops.
    He wrote the score to Charlie Chaplin’s “Great Dictator”.
    Hum a few bars. It fits the current moment.

  906. “Novels”
    Hidden in the corn crib, no less!
    Yer out-a-town jasper writers tend to sneak in a joke or two from Captain Willy’s Whizbang too, if you don’t watch ’em with an eagle eye.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI_Oe-jtgdI
    Meredith Wilson, the genius, grew up in Mason City, Iowa, and being a quintessential American he took the train thru flyover heartland country to both coasts and made his success, and the heartland didn’t seem to mind, given the box office receipts.
    Now, of course, he’d be a suspect and accused darkly of contempt for his upbringing and a traitor to his class.
    Immigrants like Michelle Malkin and Pat Buchanan would question his American bonafides and want to inspect his countertops.
    He wrote the score to Charlie Chaplin’s “Great Dictator”.
    Hum a few bars. It fits the current moment.

  907. This seems to be a pretty good synopsis of the bill. It’s CNN, so it’s obviously fake news, but whatever.
    Just to run some simple numbers:
    A bog standard family of four with parents filing jointly gets double the standard deduction. $24K, up from $12,700, so they’re up by $11,300.
    They lose the personal exemption. At $4,050 each, times four, that’s $16,200, so now they’re actually down $4,900.
    But the per-child tax credit is doubled from $1K to $2K, so they’re only down by $2,900.
    All of this comes off the top of taxable income, so discount it by whatever their overall rate is.
    Lather rinse and repeat for all of the permutations of itemize vs don’t itemize, new deductions vs deductions that go away, minor changes in the rates, and for Middle Class America it all basically seems kind of…. meh.
    It’s actually not clear to me that anybody who works for a wage has anupside at all, but I’m extending the benefit of the doubt.
    Some folks will get a little bump, some folks will pay more. Most folks will be not that different from where they are now.
    Meh.
    Corps get drop in tax rate. Depending on industry, maybe quite a large drop.
    Folks who derive their income from S corps, LLCs, or other pass-throughs get, I think, a 20% reduction in rate.
    Tax preparers can expect a good year in 2019. Accountants and attorneys can expect a good year in 2018 as anyone working as an independent professional who hasn’t already structured themselves as an LLC or S corp does so.
    Large corps are already sitting on piles of cash. They’ll take the windfall and buy back equity. Some may make some capital investments.
    Small corps may hire some folks, or their owners may just take a nice vacation.
    The nation will collectively absorb another $1T or so of debt. That will place increased pressure on entitlements, which are already being queued up for a haircut.
    The donor class got what it paid for.

  908. This seems to be a pretty good synopsis of the bill. It’s CNN, so it’s obviously fake news, but whatever.
    Just to run some simple numbers:
    A bog standard family of four with parents filing jointly gets double the standard deduction. $24K, up from $12,700, so they’re up by $11,300.
    They lose the personal exemption. At $4,050 each, times four, that’s $16,200, so now they’re actually down $4,900.
    But the per-child tax credit is doubled from $1K to $2K, so they’re only down by $2,900.
    All of this comes off the top of taxable income, so discount it by whatever their overall rate is.
    Lather rinse and repeat for all of the permutations of itemize vs don’t itemize, new deductions vs deductions that go away, minor changes in the rates, and for Middle Class America it all basically seems kind of…. meh.
    It’s actually not clear to me that anybody who works for a wage has anupside at all, but I’m extending the benefit of the doubt.
    Some folks will get a little bump, some folks will pay more. Most folks will be not that different from where they are now.
    Meh.
    Corps get drop in tax rate. Depending on industry, maybe quite a large drop.
    Folks who derive their income from S corps, LLCs, or other pass-throughs get, I think, a 20% reduction in rate.
    Tax preparers can expect a good year in 2019. Accountants and attorneys can expect a good year in 2018 as anyone working as an independent professional who hasn’t already structured themselves as an LLC or S corp does so.
    Large corps are already sitting on piles of cash. They’ll take the windfall and buy back equity. Some may make some capital investments.
    Small corps may hire some folks, or their owners may just take a nice vacation.
    The nation will collectively absorb another $1T or so of debt. That will place increased pressure on entitlements, which are already being queued up for a haircut.
    The donor class got what it paid for.

  909. novels?
    My mother’s side of the family is from a rural (and very Protestant) part of Eastern Germany. At least for girls reading was seen as sinful idleness per se. And novels (not just dime novels*) were by definition a tool of the devil (immoral and seducing towards immorality). We are talking about the same time (late 1920ies).
    *dime novels were the target of actual laws intended to protect the youth. The argument was the same as with violent media today: consuming them would lead inevitably to a life of depravity and crime.
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesetz_zur_Bewahrung_der_Jugend_vor_Schund-_und_Schmutzschriften

  910. novels?
    My mother’s side of the family is from a rural (and very Protestant) part of Eastern Germany. At least for girls reading was seen as sinful idleness per se. And novels (not just dime novels*) were by definition a tool of the devil (immoral and seducing towards immorality). We are talking about the same time (late 1920ies).
    *dime novels were the target of actual laws intended to protect the youth. The argument was the same as with violent media today: consuming them would lead inevitably to a life of depravity and crime.
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesetz_zur_Bewahrung_der_Jugend_vor_Schund-_und_Schmutzschriften

  911. From the CNN article:

    If you take out a new mortgage on a first or second home you would only be allowed to deduct the interest on debt up to $750,000, down from $1 million today. Homeowners who already have a mortgage would be unaffected by the bill

    Bold mine,
    So will people who can afford a $1.5 million home not buy it because the interst on the debt for the second $750k won’t be deductible? Will we start writing mortgages with 8% rates on the first $750k but the next $750k is interest free?
    I owned a home in MA for 26 years and never had a mortgage more than 250k (nor could I ever afford a million dollar house) so I dont know what people that can afford those houses might do. But I suspect that most of them aren’t the target for middle class tax cuts.

  912. From the CNN article:

    If you take out a new mortgage on a first or second home you would only be allowed to deduct the interest on debt up to $750,000, down from $1 million today. Homeowners who already have a mortgage would be unaffected by the bill

    Bold mine,
    So will people who can afford a $1.5 million home not buy it because the interst on the debt for the second $750k won’t be deductible? Will we start writing mortgages with 8% rates on the first $750k but the next $750k is interest free?
    I owned a home in MA for 26 years and never had a mortgage more than 250k (nor could I ever afford a million dollar house) so I dont know what people that can afford those houses might do. But I suspect that most of them aren’t the target for middle class tax cuts.

  913. It’s pretty weird to define a punch in the face as a kiss because it comes from the good guy.
    when your wordplay leads you to a situation where you classify the actions of the victim into the same category as the actions of the perpetrator, your wordplay no longer mirrors reality – even if you had fun getting there.
    try again. proceed with more care.

  914. It’s pretty weird to define a punch in the face as a kiss because it comes from the good guy.
    when your wordplay leads you to a situation where you classify the actions of the victim into the same category as the actions of the perpetrator, your wordplay no longer mirrors reality – even if you had fun getting there.
    try again. proceed with more care.

  915. I can’t see why mortgage interest should be tax deductible at all (this tax relief was abolished in the UK in 2000). I suppose rent isn’t.
    I can’t see why income from pass-throughs shouldn’t be taxed at the same rate as salaries.
    Generally, in a good tax system all income from whatever source is taxed at the same rate.

  916. I can’t see why mortgage interest should be tax deductible at all (this tax relief was abolished in the UK in 2000). I suppose rent isn’t.
    I can’t see why income from pass-throughs shouldn’t be taxed at the same rate as salaries.
    Generally, in a good tax system all income from whatever source is taxed at the same rate.

  917. to me, a cap on the mortgage interest deduction makes sense. I’d go this bill one further and limit it to primary residence only. In principle, I don’t mind if it’s eliminated, however I have no idea how you’d go about that without gutting a lot of folks’ personal wealth and massively depressing the building industry.
    as far as homes in MA, you would likely not get into the housing market here for $250K. the house my wife and I own sold for about that (not to us, sadly) in ’95. now it’d go for more than twice that. we probably couldn’t afford to buy it if we were buying it now.
    it’s not a big house. it’s a starter home, a condo alternative.
    median home price in my county is about $413K. that’s about 6 times the median household income. it’s worse in some neighboring counties. lots of young families are moving away, if they can. central or western MA, CT, NH.
    not much room left to expand here, people are already regularly driving 60 or 90 minutes to work, each way. plus, if you expand east, you get wet.
    a million dollar house here is still kind of a big deal. a $750K house, less so. half a million gets you a pretty good house, not everything you want but not too bad either.
    different places have different issues.

  918. to me, a cap on the mortgage interest deduction makes sense. I’d go this bill one further and limit it to primary residence only. In principle, I don’t mind if it’s eliminated, however I have no idea how you’d go about that without gutting a lot of folks’ personal wealth and massively depressing the building industry.
    as far as homes in MA, you would likely not get into the housing market here for $250K. the house my wife and I own sold for about that (not to us, sadly) in ’95. now it’d go for more than twice that. we probably couldn’t afford to buy it if we were buying it now.
    it’s not a big house. it’s a starter home, a condo alternative.
    median home price in my county is about $413K. that’s about 6 times the median household income. it’s worse in some neighboring counties. lots of young families are moving away, if they can. central or western MA, CT, NH.
    not much room left to expand here, people are already regularly driving 60 or 90 minutes to work, each way. plus, if you expand east, you get wet.
    a million dollar house here is still kind of a big deal. a $750K house, less so. half a million gets you a pretty good house, not everything you want but not too bad either.
    different places have different issues.

  923. from the yahoo finance link:

    They’re all under the impression that they’re going to receive a tax cut.

    surprise!

  924. from the yahoo finance link:

    They’re all under the impression that they’re going to receive a tax cut.

    surprise!

  925. But the per-child tax credit is doubled from $1K to $2K, so they’re only down by $2,900.
    Not exactly. Tax credits reduce your tax. Exemptions and deductions reduce your taxable income. Dollar for dollar, tax credits are worth much more.

  926. But the per-child tax credit is doubled from $1K to $2K, so they’re only down by $2,900.
    Not exactly. Tax credits reduce your tax. Exemptions and deductions reduce your taxable income. Dollar for dollar, tax credits are worth much more.

  935. Here’s where I am with this tax bill. I have 4 kids and a wife – family of 6. I’m losing $24,300 in personal exemptions. I used to itemize, but my itemized deductions amounted to a bit over $20K. The new standard deduction is about equal to my lost personal exemptions, so, in effect, it’s as though I’m simply losing all of my previous deductions. But the doubled child tax credit more or less makes up for it. As soon as my kids start hitting 17 [To qualify, a child must have been under age 17 (i.e., 16 years old or younger) at the end of the tax year for which you claim the credit.] my annual tax bills start going up in increments of $2K (all other things being equal). My first kid hits that mark in 2020.

  936. Here’s where I am with this tax bill. I have 4 kids and a wife – family of 6. I’m losing $24,300 in personal exemptions. I used to itemize, but my itemized deductions amounted to a bit over $20K. The new standard deduction is about equal to my lost personal exemptions, so, in effect, it’s as though I’m simply losing all of my previous deductions. But the doubled child tax credit more or less makes up for it. As soon as my kids start hitting 17 [To qualify, a child must have been under age 17 (i.e., 16 years old or younger) at the end of the tax year for which you claim the credit.] my annual tax bills start going up in increments of $2K (all other things being equal). My first kid hits that mark in 2020.

  939. Marty: So will people who can afford a $1.5 million home not buy it because the interst on the debt for the second $750k won’t be deductible? Will we start writing mortgages with 8% rates on the first $750k but the next $750k is interest free?
    To Marty’s 1st question:
    Would people who could make $1.5 million next year not do the deal because the second $750K would be taxed at 40% instead of 37%?
    To Marty’s 2nd question:
    Assuming (until informed otherwise) that mortgage interest on rental property continues to be deductible without limit — it’s a business expense, after all — what’s more plausible is that two people, each looking to buy a $2M house, would form a real-estate partnership and buy each other’s house. Problem solved.
    –TP

  940. Marty: So will people who can afford a $1.5 million home not buy it because the interst on the debt for the second $750k won’t be deductible? Will we start writing mortgages with 8% rates on the first $750k but the next $750k is interest free?
    To Marty’s 1st question:
    Would people who could make $1.5 million next year not do the deal because the second $750K would be taxed at 40% instead of 37%?
    To Marty’s 2nd question:
    Assuming (until informed otherwise) that mortgage interest on rental property continues to be deductible without limit — it’s a business expense, after all — what’s more plausible is that two people, each looking to buy a $2M house, would form a real-estate partnership and buy each other’s house. Problem solved.
    –TP

  941. Dollar for dollar, tax credits are worth much more.
    Thanks for the correction!
    Most folks are going to get a little bump out of this. $1K or less. They’ll spend it, maybe pay down credit debt, maybe buy new tires or a washing machine, maybe take a vacation.
    Some folks will take a hit. Again, probably not dramatic, at least relative to their overall income.
    Folks who derive income from professional services via pass-throughs will get a big payday. Don’t know what they’ll do with it, probably spend some and invest some. Maybe roll some back into their business, although that’s hard to say.
    Corps will get a big payday. Some of that may go to capital investment, most will probably go to equity buy-back and/or dividends.
    So if you own equity you’ll probably get a nice upside. If you participate in an LLC you’ll probably get a nice upside, depending on details. If you work for a living, you’ll be a little ahead or a little behind.
    Most folks will get their $100, or $500, or $1K bump and be totally happy. What happens five or ten years down the road when the stuff that helps them expires (or doesn’t) is, understandably, noise.
    Nobody will be filling out their taxes on a 3×5 card as promised, but I think everyone knew that was horseshit anyway.
    This will put a big hole in the federal budget. Most folks don’t pay that much attention. They’ll feel it, eventually, in lost or reduced public services, but they will probably not make the connection.
    The (R)’s – at least some of them – will most definitely be coming after Medicaid, Medicare, and SS, and the increased federal debt will be used as a lever.
    But net/net, most folks will spend whatever they glean from the changes and will be totally fine with all of it. It’s a bird in the hand.
    I don’t see the (R)’s paying any price for this, to be honest.

  942. Dollar for dollar, tax credits are worth much more.
    Thanks for the correction!
    Most folks are going to get a little bump out of this. $1K or less. They’ll spend it, maybe pay down credit debt, maybe buy new tires or a washing machine, maybe take a vacation.
    Some folks will take a hit. Again, probably not dramatic, at least relative to their overall income.
    Folks who derive income from professional services via pass-throughs will get a big payday. Don’t know what they’ll do with it, probably spend some and invest some. Maybe roll some back into their business, although that’s hard to say.
    Corps will get a big payday. Some of that may go to capital investment, most will probably go to equity buy-back and/or dividends.
    So if you own equity you’ll probably get a nice upside. If you participate in an LLC you’ll probably get a nice upside, depending on details. If you work for a living, you’ll be a little ahead or a little behind.
    Most folks will get their $100, or $500, or $1K bump and be totally happy. What happens five or ten years down the road when the stuff that helps them expires (or doesn’t) is, understandably, noise.
    Nobody will be filling out their taxes on a 3×5 card as promised, but I think everyone knew that was horseshit anyway.
    This will put a big hole in the federal budget. Most folks don’t pay that much attention. They’ll feel it, eventually, in lost or reduced public services, but they will probably not make the connection.
    The (R)’s – at least some of them – will most definitely be coming after Medicaid, Medicare, and SS, and the increased federal debt will be used as a lever.
    But net/net, most folks will spend whatever they glean from the changes and will be totally fine with all of it. It’s a bird in the hand.
    I don’t see the (R)’s paying any price for this, to be honest.

  943. What I’m curious about, somewhat echoing Marty, is how the mortgage-interest deduction plays out, but not so much because the cap was lowered.
    The number of people who itemized worked out to be about 30% of filers. I would guess that the overwhelming majority of them claimed mortgage interest. They’re saying the percentage of people who itemize should go down quite a bit, maybe to as little as 6%.
    What this means is that for only very few people will there be any tax advantage to paying interest on a mortgage. How much that factored into people’s home-buying decisions I don’t know. Depending on your top bracket, your interest was subsidized by, for most people, at least 15%. (I can’t imagine there were too many people itemizing in the 10% bracket.)
    Beyond home buying, there’s also refinancing or otherwise borrowing against the value of your home. How much does the loss of tax advantage affect that, and how does that affect investment and consumption? What happens if interest rates go up, amplifying whatever effects this has?
    You got me….

  944. What I’m curious about, somewhat echoing Marty, is how the mortgage-interest deduction plays out, but not so much because the cap was lowered.
    The number of people who itemized worked out to be about 30% of filers. I would guess that the overwhelming majority of them claimed mortgage interest. They’re saying the percentage of people who itemize should go down quite a bit, maybe to as little as 6%.
    What this means is that for only very few people will there be any tax advantage to paying interest on a mortgage. How much that factored into people’s home-buying decisions I don’t know. Depending on your top bracket, your interest was subsidized by, for most people, at least 15%. (I can’t imagine there were too many people itemizing in the 10% bracket.)
    Beyond home buying, there’s also refinancing or otherwise borrowing against the value of your home. How much does the loss of tax advantage affect that, and how does that affect investment and consumption? What happens if interest rates go up, amplifying whatever effects this has?
    You got me….

  945. I will just say this and then be silent. During any discussion of tax increases on the middle class, particularly the lower middle class. Over the years the discussion has always gonelike this.
    Why don’t we raise taxes on everyone, it’s graduated so that makes it fair.
    No the impact of 1000 a year on lower middle class folks is much more than 10k on people making more because they spend every penny to survive.
    So, now, let’s give those folks a higher standard deduction and double their tax credit?
    We that only gives them 100 bucks a year, big deal.
    Huh?

  946. I will just say this and then be silent. During any discussion of tax increases on the middle class, particularly the lower middle class. Over the years the discussion has always gonelike this.
    Why don’t we raise taxes on everyone, it’s graduated so that makes it fair.
    No the impact of 1000 a year on lower middle class folks is much more than 10k on people making more because they spend every penny to survive.
    So, now, let’s give those folks a higher standard deduction and double their tax credit?
    We that only gives them 100 bucks a year, big deal.
    Huh?

  947. Last line should be 1000 bucks a year, either way. The child tax credit and standard deduction combine ensure most people who need money the most get a cut.

  948. Last line should be 1000 bucks a year, either way. The child tax credit and standard deduction combine ensure most people who need money the most get a cut.

  949. We that only gives them 100 bucks a year, big deal.
    Huh?
    I think it’s great that folks will get a $1K tax break. I’m sure they’ll put it to good use. It may even drive a little consumer spending, which won’t be a bad thing.
    In return for their $1K tax cut, they federal budget is going to be down by about $1T over ten years. That’s going to mean other services that those same folks rely on directly or indirectly are going to come under the axe.
    951 years of CHIP, right?
    Plus, their nice $1K tax cut may go away.
    TANSTAAFL
    Unless you’re an equity holder, then you get a free lunch, courtesy of the federal budget. No particular obligation to spend it on capital investment, or hiring, or wage increases, use it as you will.
    That’s the “Huh”.

  950. We that only gives them 100 bucks a year, big deal.
    Huh?
    I think it’s great that folks will get a $1K tax break. I’m sure they’ll put it to good use. It may even drive a little consumer spending, which won’t be a bad thing.
    In return for their $1K tax cut, they federal budget is going to be down by about $1T over ten years. That’s going to mean other services that those same folks rely on directly or indirectly are going to come under the axe.
    951 years of CHIP, right?
    Plus, their nice $1K tax cut may go away.
    TANSTAAFL
    Unless you’re an equity holder, then you get a free lunch, courtesy of the federal budget. No particular obligation to spend it on capital investment, or hiring, or wage increases, use it as you will.
    That’s the “Huh”.

  951. Last line should be 1000 bucks a year, either way. The child tax credit and standard deduction combine ensure most people who need money the most get a cut.
    I don’t think anyone has a problem with those things or giving people at the bottom another $1000. The “big deal” is more in reference to how it plays out relative to, say, giving people who inherit $22M a huge tax break or giving already highly-profitable corporations as big tax break or leaving carried interest the way it is, continuing a huge tax break for very wealthy people.
    That aside, what you, and a lot of other people it seems, are leaving out is the elimination of the personal exemption. That effectively negates a large portion (or all of or more than, depending) the increase in the standard deduction.

  952. Last line should be 1000 bucks a year, either way. The child tax credit and standard deduction combine ensure most people who need money the most get a cut.
    I don’t think anyone has a problem with those things or giving people at the bottom another $1000. The “big deal” is more in reference to how it plays out relative to, say, giving people who inherit $22M a huge tax break or giving already highly-profitable corporations as big tax break or leaving carried interest the way it is, continuing a huge tax break for very wealthy people.
    That aside, what you, and a lot of other people it seems, are leaving out is the elimination of the personal exemption. That effectively negates a large portion (or all of or more than, depending) the increase in the standard deduction.

  953. And credit where credit is due, Marco Rubio pushed for the $2K child tax credit as well as an increase in the refundable portion of it (i.e. how far it could effectively give you a negative tax bill for the year, given a credit in excess of your total tax).
    Tax credits, in a progressive tax system, are inherently progressive in the relative sense that their equivalence to deductions is determined by multiplying them by the inverse of the highest bracket your income reaches (though, technically, it could straddle a couple of brackets, but still). The lower the bracket, the greater the inverse.

  954. And credit where credit is due, Marco Rubio pushed for the $2K child tax credit as well as an increase in the refundable portion of it (i.e. how far it could effectively give you a negative tax bill for the year, given a credit in excess of your total tax).
    Tax credits, in a progressive tax system, are inherently progressive in the relative sense that their equivalence to deductions is determined by multiplying them by the inverse of the highest bracket your income reaches (though, technically, it could straddle a couple of brackets, but still). The lower the bracket, the greater the inverse.

  955. what you, and a lot of other people it seems, are leaving out is the elimination of the personal exemption.
    $4050 per person.
    Fine print. Oops.
    What all of this amounts to is nothing like “tax reform”. What it is, fundamentally, is a cut in the corporate tax rate. The rest is farting around at the margins.
    A cut in the corporate tax rate is not necessarily a bad thing. It’s just not that likely to be especially stimulative at this point in time.
    It’s just a big tax cut, for corps, funded by a federal deficit.

  956. what you, and a lot of other people it seems, are leaving out is the elimination of the personal exemption.
    $4050 per person.
    Fine print. Oops.
    What all of this amounts to is nothing like “tax reform”. What it is, fundamentally, is a cut in the corporate tax rate. The rest is farting around at the margins.
    A cut in the corporate tax rate is not necessarily a bad thing. It’s just not that likely to be especially stimulative at this point in time.
    It’s just a big tax cut, for corps, funded by a federal deficit.

  957. For most families the standard deduction raise is larger than the loss on the individual, the cold credit more than makes up for each of their deductions, for most lower middle class families.
    No one, or not me I guess, is leaving it out, the double standard is a wash for a family of four and the credits automatically add money back.
    For a lot of lower middle income families of 4 it’s about a 2k gain on a short form.
    That’s real money.

  958. For most families the standard deduction raise is larger than the loss on the individual, the cold credit more than makes up for each of their deductions, for most lower middle class families.
    No one, or not me I guess, is leaving it out, the double standard is a wash for a family of four and the credits automatically add money back.
    For a lot of lower middle income families of 4 it’s about a 2k gain on a short form.
    That’s real money.

  959. Most people pay FICA. Most people pay it through withholding. Most people think of the money withheld from their paycheck as “taxes”.
    I sincerely hope the Republicans keep telling people what Yertl just said on TV: that a family of 4 making $41K will see a 73% reduction in its “taxes”.
    –TP

  960. Most people pay FICA. Most people pay it through withholding. Most people think of the money withheld from their paycheck as “taxes”.
    I sincerely hope the Republicans keep telling people what Yertl just said on TV: that a family of 4 making $41K will see a 73% reduction in its “taxes”.
    –TP

  961. that family is also somewhat more likely to see their health insurance rates go up, or to lose health insurance entirely. want to spend $2K in a flash? get sick.

  962. that family is also somewhat more likely to see their health insurance rates go up, or to lose health insurance entirely. want to spend $2K in a flash? get sick.

  963. that family is also somewhat more likely to see their health insurance rates go up, or to lose health insurance entirely.
    Yup.

  964. that family is also somewhat more likely to see their health insurance rates go up, or to lose health insurance entirely.
    Yup.

  967. Pro Bono: I can’t see why income from pass-throughs shouldn’t be taxed at the same rate as salaries.
    The reason is the same as the (real) reason that capital gains are taxed lower. The folks getting the benefit are big political donors.
    After all, we already demonstrated that cutting the capital gains tax had minimal to no benefit when it comes to growing the economy. But hey, why bother with facts when there are campaign donations at risk?

  968. Pro Bono: I can’t see why income from pass-throughs shouldn’t be taxed at the same rate as salaries.
    The reason is the same as the (real) reason that capital gains are taxed lower. The folks getting the benefit are big political donors.
    After all, we already demonstrated that cutting the capital gains tax had minimal to no benefit when it comes to growing the economy. But hey, why bother with facts when there are campaign donations at risk?

  969. What it is, fundamentally, is a cut in the corporate tax rate. The rest is farting around at the margins.
    And Trump, to his credit (although probably not deliberately or thought through), said exactly that yesterday. It was all about the corporate tax rate. (He also said that everybody was told not to admit that before the bill was passed, lest the public notice and take exception.)
    Hey, if you can’t trust Trump, who can you trust? 😉

  970. What it is, fundamentally, is a cut in the corporate tax rate. The rest is farting around at the margins.
    And Trump, to his credit (although probably not deliberately or thought through), said exactly that yesterday. It was all about the corporate tax rate. (He also said that everybody was told not to admit that before the bill was passed, lest the public notice and take exception.)
    Hey, if you can’t trust Trump, who can you trust? 😉

  971. For most families the standard deduction raise is larger than the loss on the individual, the cold credit more than makes up for each of their deductions, for most lower middle class families.
    A family usually means at least 3 people. The standard deduction wasn’t quite doubled. It went up, for a family, by $11,300. Technically, it was already supposed to go up to $13K next year under the existing tax regime, so it’s really only going up by $11K compared to what it would have been.
    The personal exemption was supposed to be $4150 in 2018. For three people, that would be a $12,450 exemption.
    As personal exemptions and standard deductions go, that family of three is worse off by $1450 in additional taxable income. If their kid turns 17 anytime soon, they can say goodbye to the extra $1K in the child tax credit (as well as the original $1K).
    The fact remains that this is going to blow up the deficit. The corporate tax cuts aren’t going to pay for themselves. People at the bottom will save some money in taxes, but likely have assistance gutted as soon as the GOP starts crying about deficits again (which, really, as already started, depending on which side of their mouths they’re talking out of).

  972. For most families the standard deduction raise is larger than the loss on the individual, the cold credit more than makes up for each of their deductions, for most lower middle class families.
    A family usually means at least 3 people. The standard deduction wasn’t quite doubled. It went up, for a family, by $11,300. Technically, it was already supposed to go up to $13K next year under the existing tax regime, so it’s really only going up by $11K compared to what it would have been.
    The personal exemption was supposed to be $4150 in 2018. For three people, that would be a $12,450 exemption.
    As personal exemptions and standard deductions go, that family of three is worse off by $1450 in additional taxable income. If their kid turns 17 anytime soon, they can say goodbye to the extra $1K in the child tax credit (as well as the original $1K).
    The fact remains that this is going to blow up the deficit. The corporate tax cuts aren’t going to pay for themselves. People at the bottom will save some money in taxes, but likely have assistance gutted as soon as the GOP starts crying about deficits again (which, really, as already started, depending on which side of their mouths they’re talking out of).

  973. The fact remains that this is going to blow up the deficit.
    deficits don’t matter when the GOP is in charge, except when the GOP wants to use them as an excuse for cutting something, in which case they’ll create larger deficits and dare the public to notice how phony they are.

  974. The fact remains that this is going to blow up the deficit.
    deficits don’t matter when the GOP is in charge, except when the GOP wants to use them as an excuse for cutting something, in which case they’ll create larger deficits and dare the public to notice how phony they are.

  975. for example: CHIP.
    the Stupid Party won’t fund a fncking children’s health insurance program because it will add to the deficit.
    but Apple needs a tax cut, immediately, forever.

  976. for example: CHIP.
    the Stupid Party won’t fund a fncking children’s health insurance program because it will add to the deficit.
    but Apple needs a tax cut, immediately, forever.

  979. On CHIP, I’m sure if they won’t fund it. Or if it’s just that they can’t be bothered to get around to a bill to do so.
    I actually suspect that, for most of them (although not the “Freedom Caucus” of course) it’s more a matter of “can’t be bothered.” Which also says something about them, just not quite the same thing.

  980. On CHIP, I’m sure if they won’t fund it. Or if it’s just that they can’t be bothered to get around to a bill to do so.
    I actually suspect that, for most of them (although not the “Freedom Caucus” of course) it’s more a matter of “can’t be bothered.” Which also says something about them, just not quite the same thing.

  981. But the per-child tax credit is doubled from $1K to $2K, so they’re only down by $2,900.
    Some Republicans, including Paul Ryan, are moaning about the declining birth rate and the need to do something to encourage people to have more children. Yet, some of those same politicians are prepared to kick thousands of young people out of the country.
    A pox on all of their houses.

  982. But the per-child tax credit is doubled from $1K to $2K, so they’re only down by $2,900.
    Some Republicans, including Paul Ryan, are moaning about the declining birth rate and the need to do something to encourage people to have more children. Yet, some of those same politicians are prepared to kick thousands of young people out of the country.
    A pox on all of their houses.

  983. Of course, it’s not hard to divine what the Republicans really want.
    1) Reward their donors (and Trump personally)
    2) Shrink the state
    Shrinking the state directly is too hard. Much easier to cut taxes – who’s against tax cuts? – and leave it till later to cut spending accordingly.
    Poor people will suffer, which is ok, it’s their own fault for being poor. Rich people will have more money than they know what to do with, that’s good too, being born to wealthy parents is a laudable achievement.

  984. Of course, it’s not hard to divine what the Republicans really want.
    1) Reward their donors (and Trump personally)
    2) Shrink the state
    Shrinking the state directly is too hard. Much easier to cut taxes – who’s against tax cuts? – and leave it till later to cut spending accordingly.
    Poor people will suffer, which is ok, it’s their own fault for being poor. Rich people will have more money than they know what to do with, that’s good too, being born to wealthy parents is a laudable achievement.

  987. Some Republicans, including Paul Ryan, are moaning about the declining birth rate and the need to do something to encourage people to have more children. Yet, some of those same politicians are prepared to kick thousands of young people out of the country.
    Thanks for this one, CharlesWT.

  988. Some Republicans, including Paul Ryan, are moaning about the declining birth rate and the need to do something to encourage people to have more children. Yet, some of those same politicians are prepared to kick thousands of young people out of the country.
    Thanks for this one, CharlesWT.

  989. From russell’s link:
    “This first batch of six protesters served partially as a test case for the government’s strategy.”
    This is good news for the protests yet to come. I’m hoping that everyone will be in the streets when Trump starts messing with the Mueller investigation (by firing Rosenstein, for one possibility).

  990. From russell’s link:
    “This first batch of six protesters served partially as a test case for the government’s strategy.”
    This is good news for the protests yet to come. I’m hoping that everyone will be in the streets when Trump starts messing with the Mueller investigation (by firing Rosenstein, for one possibility).

  991. So, control of the VA legislature will be decided “by lot”. Is this a great country or what?
    I mean, where else could lick-spittles like Ryan, McConnell, Hatch, and Pence coo and purr at Dear Leader and still be treated like Serious People by … well, anybody?
    Where else could you find a political system that provides so much harmless entertainment to the rest of humanity?
    –TP

  992. So, control of the VA legislature will be decided “by lot”. Is this a great country or what?
    I mean, where else could lick-spittles like Ryan, McConnell, Hatch, and Pence coo and purr at Dear Leader and still be treated like Serious People by … well, anybody?
    Where else could you find a political system that provides so much harmless entertainment to the rest of humanity?
    –TP

  993. So, control of the VA legislature will be decided “by lot”.
    Yeah, and we have to wait until Wednesday. Well, at least there’s a chance – to put it literally.

  994. So, control of the VA legislature will be decided “by lot”.
    Yeah, and we have to wait until Wednesday. Well, at least there’s a chance – to put it literally.

  997. “I do wonder why they are picking a name out of a hat. Rather than, say, just flipping a coin.”
    More opportunities for shenanigans.

  998. “I do wonder why they are picking a name out of a hat. Rather than, say, just flipping a coin.”
    More opportunities for shenanigans.

  1003. true ‘dat, Nigel. Reminded me of the Communist Party Congresses under Mao….nobody uttered the words “great helmsman”, but the thought was there.

  1004. true ‘dat, Nigel. Reminded me of the Communist Party Congresses under Mao….nobody uttered the words “great helmsman”, but the thought was there.

  1011. https://washingtonmonthly.com/2017/12/20/quick-takes-there-is-no-excuse-for-this-kind-of-ignorance/
    Not claiming symmetry between now and then, but maybe Bannon could add this to Ivanka’s reading list:
    https://books.google.com/books?id=cXQWAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA671&lpg=PA671&dq=small+business+failures+in+1932&source=bl&ots=wqMyvXUbEl&sig=RlAuxxt4Z7gkqUlnmeUYfFSqkI4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwii3pbng57YAhUS1GMKHZVFB6gQ6AEILjAB#v=onepage&q&f=false
    Matters not any longer in bullshit America. The less true something is the more likely it is to be true. He who peddles the fakest news, wins.
    Rump has no facts. I have others.

  1012. https://washingtonmonthly.com/2017/12/20/quick-takes-there-is-no-excuse-for-this-kind-of-ignorance/
    Not claiming symmetry between now and then, but maybe Bannon could add this to Ivanka’s reading list:
    https://books.google.com/books?id=cXQWAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA671&lpg=PA671&dq=small+business+failures+in+1932&source=bl&ots=wqMyvXUbEl&sig=RlAuxxt4Z7gkqUlnmeUYfFSqkI4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwii3pbng57YAhUS1GMKHZVFB6gQ6AEILjAB#v=onepage&q&f=false
    Matters not any longer in bullshit America. The less true something is the more likely it is to be true. He who peddles the fakest news, wins.
    Rump has no facts. I have others.

  1013. Good Bannon link at 10:57, Count. Looks kinds familiar to me, cause I have just done a spurt of reading in Georg Lukacs Destruction of Reason 1952, about 150 pages in two days. Lukacs was a Marxist-Leninist, almost Stalinist, and DoR is a history of philosophy (embedded in economic and social history) tracing the development of fascism from the reactions to the French Revolution up to WWII.
    What rung a bell in the Bannon link was a comparison of The Fourth Turning to say Dilthey and Spengler.
    It can be dangerous and difficult to read the likes of Heidegger or M Moldbug, and one needs a guide with a fairly solid perspective. I think only Marxism works, but a radical feminism of black nationalism might work, though I doubt it.
    What absolutely will fail will be a liberal capitalist perspective, because the necessity for liberalism to resolve its internal contradictions around its plutocratic militaristic imperialist feminist or black leadership make its irrationalism deep and irradicable, and terminally vulnerable to fascistic tendencies. Therefore it is useful to look for those tendencies within liberalism itself.
    Lukacs, DoR:

    The need for a world-outlook, the necessity of the outlook expressible through vitalism meant expending more and more energy on turning history into a myth, the more so the greater the pretention to concreteness. Only the ‘forms’ of vitalistic anthropology and typology, inflated into entities, could inhabit the resultant myths. The more evolution advanced, the more real history lost any signifi­cance for the proponents of vitalism. With Spengler, real history was supplanted by the myths ; with Heidegger it sank into unauthenticity; with Klages it was presented as a set of parables on the Fall of man resulting from the dominance of reason and the infamous intellect. Much as all these concep­tions may have differed, they had in common the feature that the historical process appeared the spurious movement of a number of types. And the more militantly reactionary these myths became, and the more directly they anticipated the fascist myth, the more strongly they polarized into adversaries; and the more the whole mysticized history of life served to illustrate the sole right to life of the one ‘form’ and the total reprehensibility of the other*. With Junger this line was taken to the farthest stage possible in pre-fascist times. From here to Rosenberg it was only the shortest of steps.
    But their methodology and ter­minology were still steeped in the esoteric wisdom of tiny closed, interlocking groups.

    *”the white man”

  1014. Good Bannon link at 10:57, Count. Looks kinds familiar to me, cause I have just done a spurt of reading in Georg Lukacs Destruction of Reason 1952, about 150 pages in two days. Lukacs was a Marxist-Leninist, almost Stalinist, and DoR is a history of philosophy (embedded in economic and social history) tracing the development of fascism from the reactions to the French Revolution up to WWII.
    What rung a bell in the Bannon link was a comparison of The Fourth Turning to say Dilthey and Spengler.
    It can be dangerous and difficult to read the likes of Heidegger or M Moldbug, and one needs a guide with a fairly solid perspective. I think only Marxism works, but a radical feminism of black nationalism might work, though I doubt it.
    What absolutely will fail will be a liberal capitalist perspective, because the necessity for liberalism to resolve its internal contradictions around its plutocratic militaristic imperialist feminist or black leadership make its irrationalism deep and irradicable, and terminally vulnerable to fascistic tendencies. Therefore it is useful to look for those tendencies within liberalism itself.
    Lukacs, DoR:

    The need for a world-outlook, the necessity of the outlook expressible through vitalism meant expending more and more energy on turning history into a myth, the more so the greater the pretention to concreteness. Only the ‘forms’ of vitalistic anthropology and typology, inflated into entities, could inhabit the resultant myths. The more evolution advanced, the more real history lost any signifi­cance for the proponents of vitalism. With Spengler, real history was supplanted by the myths ; with Heidegger it sank into unauthenticity; with Klages it was presented as a set of parables on the Fall of man resulting from the dominance of reason and the infamous intellect. Much as all these concep­tions may have differed, they had in common the feature that the historical process appeared the spurious movement of a number of types. And the more militantly reactionary these myths became, and the more directly they anticipated the fascist myth, the more strongly they polarized into adversaries; and the more the whole mysticized history of life served to illustrate the sole right to life of the one ‘form’ and the total reprehensibility of the other*. With Junger this line was taken to the farthest stage possible in pre-fascist times. From here to Rosenberg it was only the shortest of steps.
    But their methodology and ter­minology were still steeped in the esoteric wisdom of tiny closed, interlocking groups.

    *”the white man”

  1017. I have a real problem wrapping my head around the stupidity of denouncing as “fake news” something that you have to know was recorded.
    It’s only stupid if your audience cares about facts.

  1018. I have a real problem wrapping my head around the stupidity of denouncing as “fake news” something that you have to know was recorded.
    It’s only stupid if your audience cares about facts.

  1019. Kirsten Gillibrand Is Playing Her Cards Right
    “The New York senator was a Clinton-inspired Blue Dog before she remade herself as a progressive champion.”
    Couldn’t find the absolutist quote by KG to the effect that there is no degrees or differences in women’s oppression.
    Five Women Are Accusing A Top Left-Leaning Media Executive Of Sexually Harassing Them
    #Metoo is still going strong, and AFAICT, the targets are more on the socialistic Left than the fascistic or capitalist Right. This kinda use of force and bullying on a local level reminds me of early Mussolini tactics. there really is nothing comparable on the Trumpist Right.
    Bannon is not taking over news offices and local gov’ts with purges of wrongthink. Women are.

  1020. Kirsten Gillibrand Is Playing Her Cards Right
    “The New York senator was a Clinton-inspired Blue Dog before she remade herself as a progressive champion.”
    Couldn’t find the absolutist quote by KG to the effect that there is no degrees or differences in women’s oppression.
    Five Women Are Accusing A Top Left-Leaning Media Executive Of Sexually Harassing Them
    #Metoo is still going strong, and AFAICT, the targets are more on the socialistic Left than the fascistic or capitalist Right. This kinda use of force and bullying on a local level reminds me of early Mussolini tactics. there really is nothing comparable on the Trumpist Right.
    Bannon is not taking over news offices and local gov’ts with purges of wrongthink. Women are.

  1021. It’s only stupid if your audience cares about facts.
    Yeah, but even if you are sure (correctly or not) that a big swath of them don’t care, there are still some who do. At least when there is a video of you saying something is “fake news” and a video of you saying exactly that.
    Besides, the folks who don’t care about facts likely don’t object particularly to you repeating your previous lies. So why bother to claim you didn’t say them?

  1022. It’s only stupid if your audience cares about facts.
    Yeah, but even if you are sure (correctly or not) that a big swath of them don’t care, there are still some who do. At least when there is a video of you saying something is “fake news” and a video of you saying exactly that.
    Besides, the folks who don’t care about facts likely don’t object particularly to you repeating your previous lies. So why bother to claim you didn’t say them?

  1023. So why bother to claim you didn’t say them?
    Videos can be doctored, everyone knows that. Why would you believe *anything* you didn’t want to believe these days?

  1024. So why bother to claim you didn’t say them?
    Videos can be doctored, everyone knows that. Why would you believe *anything* you didn’t want to believe these days?

  1025. It can be dangerous and difficult to read the likes of Heidegger
    The guy is famous for writing totally incomprehensible texts without even using any foreign words. 😉

  1026. It can be dangerous and difficult to read the likes of Heidegger
    The guy is famous for writing totally incomprehensible texts without even using any foreign words. 😉

  1027. reminds me of early Mussolini tactics
    i suspect that’s not unusual.
    there really is nothing comparable on the Trumpist Right.
    perhaps that’s because the Trumpist right doesn’t give a fuck about women being sexually abused?
    like, it’s almost literally a requirement for Trump fans to not care about sexual assault. it’s essentially impossible to be a Trump fan otherwise.

  1028. reminds me of early Mussolini tactics
    i suspect that’s not unusual.
    there really is nothing comparable on the Trumpist Right.
    perhaps that’s because the Trumpist right doesn’t give a fuck about women being sexually abused?
    like, it’s almost literally a requirement for Trump fans to not care about sexual assault. it’s essentially impossible to be a Trump fan otherwise.

  1031. perhaps that’s because the Trumpist right doesn’t give a fuck about women being sexually abused?
    By comparable I meant ground-level, localized power maneuvres, the intimidation and/or taking over of local media, gov’ts, corporations. Of course the substance and rhetoric used as tools and causes would be different.
    This ground level street semi-pro activity is famously and universally considered as an absolutely necessary component of fascism. Tiki marches do not impress, and have not as far as I can tell, intimidated or silenced anyone.
    Of course every iteration of irrationalist politics will be different, and the tools of intimidation updated. The calls for Franken to unresign are still off the record and in whisper mode.

  1032. perhaps that’s because the Trumpist right doesn’t give a fuck about women being sexually abused?
    By comparable I meant ground-level, localized power maneuvres, the intimidation and/or taking over of local media, gov’ts, corporations. Of course the substance and rhetoric used as tools and causes would be different.
    This ground level street semi-pro activity is famously and universally considered as an absolutely necessary component of fascism. Tiki marches do not impress, and have not as far as I can tell, intimidated or silenced anyone.
    Of course every iteration of irrationalist politics will be different, and the tools of intimidation updated. The calls for Franken to unresign are still off the record and in whisper mode.

  1033. By comparable I meant ground-level, localized power maneuvres, the intimidation and/or taking over of local media, gov’ts, corporations.
    are you saying the right doesn’t have a good ground game? that would be odd.
    that “happy holidays” is almost a subversive thing to say these days is because the right has very strong intimidation game.
    the fact that i have to live in fear of being shot?
    the noise around preserving monuments to treason-in-the-name-of-slavery?
    the ever-present howling of social conservatism?

  1034. By comparable I meant ground-level, localized power maneuvres, the intimidation and/or taking over of local media, gov’ts, corporations.
    are you saying the right doesn’t have a good ground game? that would be odd.
    that “happy holidays” is almost a subversive thing to say these days is because the right has very strong intimidation game.
    the fact that i have to live in fear of being shot?
    the noise around preserving monuments to treason-in-the-name-of-slavery?
    the ever-present howling of social conservatism?

  1037. the noise around preserving monuments to treason-in-the-name-of-slavery?
    As opposed to say 1880, those monuments are coming down, yesterday in Memphis I think, not going up. That doesn’t mark an end to racism, but does indicate a change in the power balances. A big fucking deal. I am sorry you can’t see it. No, you have yet to have all the power, unimpeded.
    Having just read the Wikipedia entry on Horst Wessel, I am not all impressed by people saying they’re oppressed victims. Like I always say, I look at what’s happening.
    Of course, the power is configured and distributed differently in San Francisco and rural Alabama.
    And you have to look at individual issues and outcomes to see what the various factions consider important. Corporate power and military spending are unrestrained by either side.

  1038. the noise around preserving monuments to treason-in-the-name-of-slavery?
    As opposed to say 1880, those monuments are coming down, yesterday in Memphis I think, not going up. That doesn’t mark an end to racism, but does indicate a change in the power balances. A big fucking deal. I am sorry you can’t see it. No, you have yet to have all the power, unimpeded.
    Having just read the Wikipedia entry on Horst Wessel, I am not all impressed by people saying they’re oppressed victims. Like I always say, I look at what’s happening.
    Of course, the power is configured and distributed differently in San Francisco and rural Alabama.
    And you have to look at individual issues and outcomes to see what the various factions consider important. Corporate power and military spending are unrestrained by either side.

  1039. Marty, rump and the GOP are perfectly capable of licking their own genitals in self-admiration without your help.
    I’m awaiting your announcement that you have stopped paying your Obamacare premiums because you are no longer mandated to pony up without health insurance.
    Join the CHIP kids for the holidays.
    Welp, it’s travel time for me. Each and every one you have a Merry Christmas, a Happy Holiday, and a Happy New Year.
    See ya in mid-January.

  1040. Marty, rump and the GOP are perfectly capable of licking their own genitals in self-admiration without your help.
    I’m awaiting your announcement that you have stopped paying your Obamacare premiums because you are no longer mandated to pony up without health insurance.
    Join the CHIP kids for the holidays.
    Welp, it’s travel time for me. Each and every one you have a Merry Christmas, a Happy Holiday, and a Happy New Year.
    See ya in mid-January.

  1045. there are hundreds of those ‘monuments’ out there, still. and all the wingnuts in my neck of the woods know to put “DEFEND OUR HERITAGE” signs in their lawns. and they know they can cow our local govts into not doing anything about the monuments.
    the right is perfectly capable of organizing around guns and religion and racism.
    and the left is fascist?
    adjust your lenses.

  1046. there are hundreds of those ‘monuments’ out there, still. and all the wingnuts in my neck of the woods know to put “DEFEND OUR HERITAGE” signs in their lawns. and they know they can cow our local govts into not doing anything about the monuments.
    the right is perfectly capable of organizing around guns and religion and racism.
    and the left is fascist?
    adjust your lenses.

  1047. Republican bullshitter Mike Kelly is pumping out sunshine so fast from his low IQ hind end that he’s likely to put what remains of the coal mining jobs in western Pennsylvania out of business entirely:
    http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/12/trump-toadie-o-day.html
    You could sit the man’s butt down directly on a solar panel and power most of the East Coast electrical grid.
    76 trombones and 110 cornets right behind.
    Among the regs rump got rid of was the one prohibiting talking out your ass.
    Cult.

  1048. Republican bullshitter Mike Kelly is pumping out sunshine so fast from his low IQ hind end that he’s likely to put what remains of the coal mining jobs in western Pennsylvania out of business entirely:
    http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/12/trump-toadie-o-day.html
    You could sit the man’s butt down directly on a solar panel and power most of the East Coast electrical grid.
    76 trombones and 110 cornets right behind.
    Among the regs rump got rid of was the one prohibiting talking out your ass.
    Cult.

  1051. mcmanus, i feel obliged to ask: have you ever actually put your own personal @ss in the street?
    it’s cool either way, i’m just… curious.
    count, safe travels, and we’ll see ya on the flip side.

  1052. mcmanus, i feel obliged to ask: have you ever actually put your own personal @ss in the street?
    it’s cool either way, i’m just… curious.
    count, safe travels, and we’ll see ya on the flip side.

  1055. US administrations tend to differ in tone not substance on foreign policy. And even if the president is a wee bit more reluctant (like Obama), Congress (both parties alike) usually isn’t. The only thing complicating it during the last administration was the GOP’s schizophreny to have to be hawkish as usual and at the same time preventing Obama from doing the American thing (applying the Ledeen doctrine) because that would have made him ‘looking strong’.

  1056. US administrations tend to differ in tone not substance on foreign policy. And even if the president is a wee bit more reluctant (like Obama), Congress (both parties alike) usually isn’t. The only thing complicating it during the last administration was the GOP’s schizophreny to have to be hawkish as usual and at the same time preventing Obama from doing the American thing (applying the Ledeen doctrine) because that would have made him ‘looking strong’.

  1057. Commentary is basically one the voices of American neo-conservatism. It is no surprise that they like Trump’s belligerent tone, that stuff is their breakfast lunch and dinner.
    Trump is certainly proceeding from a profoundly different view of the world, and of the relationship between nations, than Obama did. It remains to be seen how it plays out.

  1058. Commentary is basically one the voices of American neo-conservatism. It is no surprise that they like Trump’s belligerent tone, that stuff is their breakfast lunch and dinner.
    Trump is certainly proceeding from a profoundly different view of the world, and of the relationship between nations, than Obama did. It remains to be seen how it plays out.

  1071. That’s very disturbing, Marty. But did you link to the story in order to impugn cleek’s sister-in-law? If so, not sure what to say to you, other than the usual. Back to pie filtering.

  1072. That’s very disturbing, Marty. But did you link to the story in order to impugn cleek’s sister-in-law? If so, not sure what to say to you, other than the usual. Back to pie filtering.

  1073. sapient, not at all, I thought his sister-in-laws article was pretty interesting. Just the vice reference reminded me of something I saw earlier in the day.

  1074. sapient, not at all, I thought his sister-in-laws article was pretty interesting. Just the vice reference reminded me of something I saw earlier in the day.

  1077. didn’t really surprise me – Vice has a pretty strong bro- vibe.
    my SiL is a free-lancer, though. i doubt she spends much time at Vice HQ.

  1078. didn’t really surprise me – Vice has a pretty strong bro- vibe.
    my SiL is a free-lancer, though. i doubt she spends much time at Vice HQ.

  1079. Happy Christmas, all !
    (I’d wait for midnight, but I still have stockings to stuff… and stuffing to prepare.)

  1080. Happy Christmas, all !
    (I’d wait for midnight, but I still have stockings to stuff… and stuffing to prepare.)

  1085. From snowy-ice-snowy Maine, Merry Christmas to all!
    Isn’t it nice how the days are getting longer?!?
    I hope everyone is enjoying the season, whatever you celebrate.

  1086. From snowy-ice-snowy Maine, Merry Christmas to all!
    Isn’t it nice how the days are getting longer?!?
    I hope everyone is enjoying the season, whatever you celebrate.

  1097. By the way, folks, to all who celebrate Christmas, I hope you’re having a lovely Christmas Day! And to other folks, have a good day too! Looking forward to another lazy week, then mobilizing!

  1098. By the way, folks, to all who celebrate Christmas, I hope you’re having a lovely Christmas Day! And to other folks, have a good day too! Looking forward to another lazy week, then mobilizing!

  1099. christmas loot – new pants and a new black hoodie, larry young in paris and seckou keita, artisanal salami and some really really dark chocolate, a nice shutterfly picture album from our trip to italy back in september.
    brother in law is visiting, friends are coming for dinner. we’re making my wife’s ex-mother-in-law’s roast pork recipe – cradled pork roast on the bone with kraut and onions. shoveled the driveway, easy peasy only two inches deep. brought some wood around from the woodpile, we’ll have chestnuts roasting on an open fire for real.
    a splendid day.
    best wishes to all, whatever and however you celebrate, including nothing and not at all. every day the days get longer.

  1100. christmas loot – new pants and a new black hoodie, larry young in paris and seckou keita, artisanal salami and some really really dark chocolate, a nice shutterfly picture album from our trip to italy back in september.
    brother in law is visiting, friends are coming for dinner. we’re making my wife’s ex-mother-in-law’s roast pork recipe – cradled pork roast on the bone with kraut and onions. shoveled the driveway, easy peasy only two inches deep. brought some wood around from the woodpile, we’ll have chestnuts roasting on an open fire for real.
    a splendid day.
    best wishes to all, whatever and however you celebrate, including nothing and not at all. every day the days get longer.

  1101. a nice shutterfly picture album from our trip to italy back in september
    OMG. You’re one of those people. I envy that photo thing! It’s so cool, but we can’t manage it for some reason.

  1102. a nice shutterfly picture album from our trip to italy back in september
    OMG. You’re one of those people. I envy that photo thing! It’s so cool, but we can’t manage it for some reason.

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