by liberal japonicus
Marty, in the comments, points to this interesting article
A 45 year old married father of two with a mortgage and a pair of college educations to fund. The remote yet persistent threat of a nuclear war is not what keeps him up at night. In fact, he might almost see it as a relief should it come. He is a bundle of raw nerves, and each day brings even more dread and foreboding than the day before. What’s frying his nerves and impinging on his amygdala all day long is something far scarier, after all. He, like everyone else, is afraid that he doesn’t have a future.
He is petrified by the idea that the skills he’s managed to build throughout the course of his life are already obsolete.
The article riffs on Vonnegut's novel Player Piano, though the idea of coming thermo-nuclear war as a relief has a Walker Percy ring to it, though Percy made do with hurricanes.
As an indication of where my mind is, I immediately googled up sex robots, which the Guardian has been fascinated with recently. from https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/27/race-to-build-world-first-sex-robot
There are 20 possible components of Harmony’s personality, and owners will use an app to pick a combination of five or six that they can adjust to create the basis for the AI. You could have a Harmony that is kind, innocent, shy, insecure and helpful to different extents, or one that is intellectual, talkative, funny, jealous and happy. McMullen had turned the intellectual aspect of Harmony’s personality up to maximum for my benefit – a previous visit by a CNN crew had gone badly after he had amplified her sexual nature. (“She said some horrible things, asking the interviewer to take her in the back room. It was very inappropriate”.) Harmony also has a mood system, which users influence indirectly: if no one interacts with her for days, she will act gloomy. Likewise, if you insult her, as McMullen demonstrated.
“You’re ugly,” he told her.
“Do you really mean that? Oh dear. Now I am depressed. Thanks a lot,” Harmony replied.
“You’re stupid,” McMullen shot back.
She paused. “I’ll remember you said that when robots take over the world.”
This function was designed to make the robot more entertaining, rather than to ensure her owner treated her well. She can tease him and say he has offended her, but Harmony exists for no other reason that to make her owner happy. At several points during my conversation with McMullen, she would interrupt us to tell him how much she liked him:
“Matt, I just wanted to say that I’m so happy to be with you.”
“You already told me that.”
“Perhaps I was saying it again for emphasis.”
“See now that’s pretty good. Good answer, Harmony.”
“Am I a clever girl or what?”
If she wanted to take Wolf Blitzer to the back room, I'd say not. Anyway, have at it or anything else that strikes your fancy.
This is perhaps even more troubling for those who worry for humanity’s future:
https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/18/16495548/deepmind-ai-go-alphago-zero-self-taught
Severely constrained task this might be, it nonetheless suggests that it’s no longer about emulating human abilities much more cheaply and effectively, but perhaps going beyond what we can even imagine.
This is perhaps even more troubling for those who worry for humanity’s future:
https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/18/16495548/deepmind-ai-go-alphago-zero-self-taught
Severely constrained task this might be, it nonetheless suggests that it’s no longer about emulating human abilities much more cheaply and effectively, but perhaps going beyond what we can even imagine.
Then there’s this, which seems related:
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/10/stockton_ubi_basic_income/543036/
Though rather a long way short of, for example, Ian M Banks’s ‘Culture’ utopia.
Then there’s this, which seems related:
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/10/stockton_ubi_basic_income/543036/
Though rather a long way short of, for example, Ian M Banks’s ‘Culture’ utopia.
From the end of Nigel’s Deep Mind link: Part one: solve intelligence; part two: use it to make the world a better place.
Oh, doesn’t it sound so simple and luscious?
But I have a question: Who gets to define “better”?
And another: Why do these gung-ho techies think it will be any easier if AIs are doing it than when humans try to do it?
And another: Why don’t smart people recognize that they’re smart about some things but not about others?
I quit looking at Tech Review except for the alumni news, because I got so tired of the cheerleading for how tech is going to solve every problem. (Who gets to define “problem”?)
David Mitchell’s novel Ghostwritten poses the question about AIs and a better world. The answer he imagines isn’t comforting.
It’s funny, because Charles’s link last night about objects that are disappearing into software also made me think of Mitchell. The last section of The Bone Clocks has characters facing the loss of the software as the world devolves, and the objects are gone too, and not coming back.
From the end of Nigel’s Deep Mind link: Part one: solve intelligence; part two: use it to make the world a better place.
Oh, doesn’t it sound so simple and luscious?
But I have a question: Who gets to define “better”?
And another: Why do these gung-ho techies think it will be any easier if AIs are doing it than when humans try to do it?
And another: Why don’t smart people recognize that they’re smart about some things but not about others?
I quit looking at Tech Review except for the alumni news, because I got so tired of the cheerleading for how tech is going to solve every problem. (Who gets to define “problem”?)
David Mitchell’s novel Ghostwritten poses the question about AIs and a better world. The answer he imagines isn’t comforting.
It’s funny, because Charles’s link last night about objects that are disappearing into software also made me think of Mitchell. The last section of The Bone Clocks has characters facing the loss of the software as the world devolves, and the objects are gone too, and not coming back.
I’m copying my comment from the other thread and pasting it here based on lj’s response to it.
From Marty’s link:
I’m copying my comment from the other thread and pasting it here based on lj’s response to it.
From Marty’s link:
I woke up this morning in a dystonian sate of mind. I am glad I am old and have no children. I think the future is going to be very very bad for nearly everyone. I have no hope that anything I care about or love will survive.
So I got on Facebook and the first thing I see is an article about the fucking Republicans in Congress and their efforts to rewrite the Endangered Species Act to allow the destruction of habitat to benefit businesses, of course of course of course.
Then I read a WAPo article that quoted Sessions basically saying he was doing us all a big favor by allowing a free press to operate.
No one will ever have a childhood like mine. Only the very rich will have the freedom to experiment and grow and have fun like middle class kids had when I was young. I have no idea why anyone would have a child.
I woke up this morning in a dystonian sate of mind. I am glad I am old and have no children. I think the future is going to be very very bad for nearly everyone. I have no hope that anything I care about or love will survive.
So I got on Facebook and the first thing I see is an article about the fucking Republicans in Congress and their efforts to rewrite the Endangered Species Act to allow the destruction of habitat to benefit businesses, of course of course of course.
Then I read a WAPo article that quoted Sessions basically saying he was doing us all a big favor by allowing a free press to operate.
No one will ever have a childhood like mine. Only the very rich will have the freedom to experiment and grow and have fun like middle class kids had when I was young. I have no idea why anyone would have a child.
Oh that cheerful thought…
Oh that cheerful thought…
But I have a question: Who gets to define “better”?
Anyone, I guess. Just that some people’s definitions will have more influence than others…
And another: Why do these gung-ho techies think it will be any easier if AIs are doing it than when humans try to do it?
Who knows. What’s fairly sure is that self-doubt probably isn’t going to inhibit their efforts.
But I have a question: Who gets to define “better”?
Anyone, I guess. Just that some people’s definitions will have more influence than others…
And another: Why do these gung-ho techies think it will be any easier if AIs are doing it than when humans try to do it?
Who knows. What’s fairly sure is that self-doubt probably isn’t going to inhibit their efforts.
I watched a good bit of the Sander-Cruz tax-reform debate on CNN last night, purely by accident. It happened to be on when I walked in last night, but it was interesting enough that I left it on and paid attention. Cruz made me want to throw my shoe at my TV, of course, because he’s a lying lair who lies a lot.
Anyway, here’s something on part of that debate:
https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2017/10/there-was-a-very-important-moment-in-last-nights-b.html
I watched a good bit of the Sander-Cruz tax-reform debate on CNN last night, purely by accident. It happened to be on when I walked in last night, but it was interesting enough that I left it on and paid attention. Cruz made me want to throw my shoe at my TV, of course, because he’s a lying lair who lies a lot.
Anyway, here’s something on part of that debate:
https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2017/10/there-was-a-very-important-moment-in-last-nights-b.html
He is petrified by the idea that the skills he’s managed to build throughout the course of his life are already obsolete.
A thought occurs. Robots are being developed mostly by people who have spent their careers in IT. Which is to say, people who have spent their careers having their skills repeatedly made obsolete as the technology moves on. (Certainly that has been my personal experience.) Which may contribute to their being less than sensitive to the negatives of the kind of obsolescence — after all, for us it is normal.
The difference, of course, is that someone who has spent an entire career having to learn entirely new stuff every few years is going to have a very different take on it that someone whose career consisted of increasing expertise in a field which didn’t change much over decades.
I confess that has been my own knee-jerk reaction: So just learn something new, develop expertise in that, and start doing that instead. With a few moments thought, I realize that it just isn’t that simple for most people. Not to mention that even the idea of doing so mostly wouldn’t occur to them.
But that was still my first reaction; and still is my initial reaction when I hear complaints about jobs being made obsolete. There’s lots of jobs out there, and I’m seeing Help Wanted and Now Hiring signs around town. Not to mention what you can find on-line. I know, on some level, that this isn’t proof that there is no real problem. But….
He is petrified by the idea that the skills he’s managed to build throughout the course of his life are already obsolete.
A thought occurs. Robots are being developed mostly by people who have spent their careers in IT. Which is to say, people who have spent their careers having their skills repeatedly made obsolete as the technology moves on. (Certainly that has been my personal experience.) Which may contribute to their being less than sensitive to the negatives of the kind of obsolescence — after all, for us it is normal.
The difference, of course, is that someone who has spent an entire career having to learn entirely new stuff every few years is going to have a very different take on it that someone whose career consisted of increasing expertise in a field which didn’t change much over decades.
I confess that has been my own knee-jerk reaction: So just learn something new, develop expertise in that, and start doing that instead. With a few moments thought, I realize that it just isn’t that simple for most people. Not to mention that even the idea of doing so mostly wouldn’t occur to them.
But that was still my first reaction; and still is my initial reaction when I hear complaints about jobs being made obsolete. There’s lots of jobs out there, and I’m seeing Help Wanted and Now Hiring signs around town. Not to mention what you can find on-line. I know, on some level, that this isn’t proof that there is no real problem. But….
Marty’s link, and now lj’s post, have pushed so many of my buttons, but I’ve run out of time to address them today.
I’ll leave you with this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVToF1gHapc
Marty’s link, and now lj’s post, have pushed so many of my buttons, but I’ve run out of time to address them today.
I’ll leave you with this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVToF1gHapc
“The difference, of course, is that someone who has spent an entire career having to learn entirely new stuff every few years is going to have a very different take on it that someone whose career consisted of increasing expertise in a field which didn’t change much over decades. ”
This really isn’t true. Yes you may have learned different languages, there were some pretty significant changes if you were around during the change to OOP but the basic skills for programming are still the same.
We have all learned things in our careers, tons of people have actual ongoing education requirements.
That is all different from going to a new industry relearning a new job entirely, in other words being “retrained” and starting as a junior resource.
If I told you you had to learn how to be a farmer, move to Kansas and be a laborer until you could become a farming expert, or a lawyer in DC you would haave a different response than learning a new scripting language.
“The difference, of course, is that someone who has spent an entire career having to learn entirely new stuff every few years is going to have a very different take on it that someone whose career consisted of increasing expertise in a field which didn’t change much over decades. ”
This really isn’t true. Yes you may have learned different languages, there were some pretty significant changes if you were around during the change to OOP but the basic skills for programming are still the same.
We have all learned things in our careers, tons of people have actual ongoing education requirements.
That is all different from going to a new industry relearning a new job entirely, in other words being “retrained” and starting as a junior resource.
If I told you you had to learn how to be a farmer, move to Kansas and be a laborer until you could become a farming expert, or a lawyer in DC you would haave a different response than learning a new scripting language.
Marty, I’m not disagreeing that the difference in degree reaches the point of being a difference in kind. (Although in my experience the amount of novelty I have seen extends substantially beyond just learning a new language. From application programming to systems programming to systems performance to networks in my case.)
Rather, I was attempting to understand why the folks creating robots might not see the problem that is being experienced by those displaced by new technologies. Which, it seems clear, they do not.
Marty, I’m not disagreeing that the difference in degree reaches the point of being a difference in kind. (Although in my experience the amount of novelty I have seen extends substantially beyond just learning a new language. From application programming to systems programming to systems performance to networks in my case.)
Rather, I was attempting to understand why the folks creating robots might not see the problem that is being experienced by those displaced by new technologies. Which, it seems clear, they do not.
Granted wj, your point is valid. It sounds like an interesting career track, obviously more complex than I made it but my point was the difference in kind.
Granted wj, your point is valid. It sounds like an interesting career track, obviously more complex than I made it but my point was the difference in kind.
people make robots because robots are cool, and they get paid to make robots because there’s a lot of money to be made from a robot that’s truly useful to people.
people make robots because robots are cool, and they get paid to make robots because there’s a lot of money to be made from a robot that’s truly useful to people.
Some articles that touch on some of the issues that have been raised in the OP and comments.
Robots and libertarians…
Some articles that touch on some of the issues that have been raised in the OP and comments.
Robots and libertarians…
some of charles’ links:
https://reason.com/archives/2017/06/10/armless-droid-calls-cops-after
Later, the man, on parole from property damage, asked the female droid out, they dated awhile, fell in love and got married:
https://reason.com/blog/2017/08/01/sex-robots-are-getting-smarter
Rick Santorum asked “What’s next, you gonna marry Mr. Coffee?” Then he and a consortium of Christian consorts backed a robotic cake baker in a Supreme Court case who couldn’t bring itself to furnish a wedding cake for a human/robot wedding.
As these things go, the robot, now no longer an object but merely software code, replaced an overpaid human deep thinker and writer at Reason magazine:
https://reason.com/reasontv/2017/09/07/mostly-weekly-minimum-wage
The software (wifey poo) wrote an article stipulating the superiority of AI over human, which was read by the employer of the original guy who was arrested for assaulting in the first place the robot in the parking lot and then marrying the robot, and the employer decided to get with the times and he fired human guy and installed replacement software code to do HIS job, too.
Human guy, being human, went home and waited for wifey pooh code to get home from work and shot her right between the parentheses and the backslash, partly because of the article she wrote causing him to lose his job and partly because her pay was so low to boot.
… the right of the people to keep and bear arms (mystery pause denoted by a comma) shall not be infringed.
Then America, like the plastic mat we play the game Twister on, got so filled up with tangled, twisted masses of conflicting rationals and motives, that God dropped in for a visit, took the game away, and gave it away to Goodwill.
some of charles’ links:
https://reason.com/archives/2017/06/10/armless-droid-calls-cops-after
Later, the man, on parole from property damage, asked the female droid out, they dated awhile, fell in love and got married:
https://reason.com/blog/2017/08/01/sex-robots-are-getting-smarter
Rick Santorum asked “What’s next, you gonna marry Mr. Coffee?” Then he and a consortium of Christian consorts backed a robotic cake baker in a Supreme Court case who couldn’t bring itself to furnish a wedding cake for a human/robot wedding.
As these things go, the robot, now no longer an object but merely software code, replaced an overpaid human deep thinker and writer at Reason magazine:
https://reason.com/reasontv/2017/09/07/mostly-weekly-minimum-wage
The software (wifey poo) wrote an article stipulating the superiority of AI over human, which was read by the employer of the original guy who was arrested for assaulting in the first place the robot in the parking lot and then marrying the robot, and the employer decided to get with the times and he fired human guy and installed replacement software code to do HIS job, too.
Human guy, being human, went home and waited for wifey pooh code to get home from work and shot her right between the parentheses and the backslash, partly because of the article she wrote causing him to lose his job and partly because her pay was so low to boot.
… the right of the people to keep and bear arms (mystery pause denoted by a comma) shall not be infringed.
Then America, like the plastic mat we play the game Twister on, got so filled up with tangled, twisted masses of conflicting rationals and motives, that God dropped in for a visit, took the game away, and gave it away to Goodwill.
Is it my imagination? Or are all these robot sex workers “female” and the target market male?
Is that due to the size of the market, or the lack of women in the management and technical staff of the companies working on them?
Inquiring minds want to know….
Is it my imagination? Or are all these robot sex workers “female” and the target market male?
Is that due to the size of the market, or the lack of women in the management and technical staff of the companies working on them?
Inquiring minds want to know….
This really isn’t true
Maybe yes maybe no.
I’ve been building stuff out of software for a little over 30 years. What has changed during that time is not really addressed by learning scripting languages.
The scale and complexity of the things that people do with software and technology in general now are some small number of orders of magnitude more complicated than they were 35 years ago.
The languages are actually not that different – if you came up knowing C or Lisp you can find a home for yourself quite easily among current-day programming languages. “Scripting languages” come and go but they tend to be DSLs particular to fairly specific uses. They aren’t where the heavy lifting is, by and large.
What has changed is the fundamental complexity of the problems that have to be addressed.
So yeah, if I had to go be a farmer, it would be very challenging. But there are about 1,000 things I could do that wouldn’t involve writing code, which would still make use of my fundamental skill set. Which is thinking about hard problems in ways that make them tractable, with a side dish of working with people to keep them focused and on task.
I like writing code because I like the craft of tangibly building stuff. It’s what I liked about my very brief career in the building trades.
But what I’ve really had to learn, and learn over and over, and continue to learn, is how to take a hard problem apart so that you can actually do something with it, and how to communicate my understanding of that to other people so that they can see the value of the solution, and how to keep a small group of people all heading in the same direction long enough to get it done.
All of that is beyond the scope of a machine.
“Scripting languages” are not a heavy lift. You learn them when you need them. Bringing useful stuff into existence is the heavy lift.
What I dislike most about our Brave New Technological World is the way in which things that machines can’t do end up being undervalued. Because they are difficult, by which I mean they take patience, and thought, and careful attentive practice, over years or decades.
There is stuff that humans can do that no machine will ever do. There are things that humans can be aware of, experiences humans can have and share, insights and understandings of the world that humans can achieve, that machines do not, can not, and will not, ever reach.
All of those things are largely undervalued these days, because what the machines can do is really freaking easy. Certainly from the end user’s point of view. And humans are by and large lazy, and will settle for what the machine can do with, for, or to them, rather than do the hard work of developing themselves.
That’s my take on it.
Machines are great. People are better.
This really isn’t true
Maybe yes maybe no.
I’ve been building stuff out of software for a little over 30 years. What has changed during that time is not really addressed by learning scripting languages.
The scale and complexity of the things that people do with software and technology in general now are some small number of orders of magnitude more complicated than they were 35 years ago.
The languages are actually not that different – if you came up knowing C or Lisp you can find a home for yourself quite easily among current-day programming languages. “Scripting languages” come and go but they tend to be DSLs particular to fairly specific uses. They aren’t where the heavy lifting is, by and large.
What has changed is the fundamental complexity of the problems that have to be addressed.
So yeah, if I had to go be a farmer, it would be very challenging. But there are about 1,000 things I could do that wouldn’t involve writing code, which would still make use of my fundamental skill set. Which is thinking about hard problems in ways that make them tractable, with a side dish of working with people to keep them focused and on task.
I like writing code because I like the craft of tangibly building stuff. It’s what I liked about my very brief career in the building trades.
But what I’ve really had to learn, and learn over and over, and continue to learn, is how to take a hard problem apart so that you can actually do something with it, and how to communicate my understanding of that to other people so that they can see the value of the solution, and how to keep a small group of people all heading in the same direction long enough to get it done.
All of that is beyond the scope of a machine.
“Scripting languages” are not a heavy lift. You learn them when you need them. Bringing useful stuff into existence is the heavy lift.
What I dislike most about our Brave New Technological World is the way in which things that machines can’t do end up being undervalued. Because they are difficult, by which I mean they take patience, and thought, and careful attentive practice, over years or decades.
There is stuff that humans can do that no machine will ever do. There are things that humans can be aware of, experiences humans can have and share, insights and understandings of the world that humans can achieve, that machines do not, can not, and will not, ever reach.
All of those things are largely undervalued these days, because what the machines can do is really freaking easy. Certainly from the end user’s point of view. And humans are by and large lazy, and will settle for what the machine can do with, for, or to them, rather than do the hard work of developing themselves.
That’s my take on it.
Machines are great. People are better.
“Is it my imagination? Or are all these robot sex workers “female” and the target market male?”
Well, it’s someone’s imagination, and it’s not a female one, unless we’re talking LGBT robots.
I prefer the gender-neutral orgasmatron in “Sleeper” the whole family can enjoy.
I’ll riff later on that.
“Is it my imagination? Or are all these robot sex workers “female” and the target market male?”
Well, it’s someone’s imagination, and it’s not a female one, unless we’re talking LGBT robots.
I prefer the gender-neutral orgasmatron in “Sleeper” the whole family can enjoy.
I’ll riff later on that.
Or are all these robot sex workers “female” and the target market male?
Actually, I think there is and has been a well established market for sex robots for women.
They are just smaller, like small enough to fit inside your purse. They don’t resemble a whole person, just the more significant bits.
Or are all these robot sex workers “female” and the target market male?
Actually, I think there is and has been a well established market for sex robots for women.
They are just smaller, like small enough to fit inside your purse. They don’t resemble a whole person, just the more significant bits.
Ah, yes, the pocket George Clooney.
I think the iPhone 15 is going to have an app and attachment for that.
But who, I ask, is going to end up cleaning out the gutters?
Ah, yes, the pocket George Clooney.
I think the iPhone 15 is going to have an app and attachment for that.
But who, I ask, is going to end up cleaning out the gutters?
They don’t resemble a whole person, just the more significant bits.
Newfoundland and Labrador may wish to object…
They don’t resemble a whole person, just the more significant bits.
Newfoundland and Labrador may wish to object…
“Which is thinking about hard problems in ways that make them tractable, with a side dish of working with people to keep them focused and on task.”
russell, my personal experience is that outside the tech world your skills in this area would carry very little weight. They wouldn’t hire you because you are good at making big problems little problems and solving them because you don’t already understand THEIR problems.
I, like most tech people, have made a career out of solving problems, then applying the right technology or process to create a solution.
There aren’t 1000 jobs out there you could get. Don’t lose your gig.
“Which is thinking about hard problems in ways that make them tractable, with a side dish of working with people to keep them focused and on task.”
russell, my personal experience is that outside the tech world your skills in this area would carry very little weight. They wouldn’t hire you because you are good at making big problems little problems and solving them because you don’t already understand THEIR problems.
I, like most tech people, have made a career out of solving problems, then applying the right technology or process to create a solution.
There aren’t 1000 jobs out there you could get. Don’t lose your gig.
I think the iPhone 15 is going to have an app and attachment for that.
I think there was a Nokia flip phone for this ten years ago.
I think the iPhone 15 is going to have an app and attachment for that.
I think there was a Nokia flip phone for this ten years ago.
Don’t lose your gig.
don’t plan to.
however, if i do lose my gig, i’ll find another one. if i can’t find or don’t want a tech gig i’ll do something else. i won’t make as much money, because i’ll have to learn the ins and outs of the new thing. so, i’ll learn the ins and outs of the new thing. and then i’ll be good at that.
probably would never get to the point of being able to add the amount of value that i do, or earn as much as i do, with what i do now, because i don’t have 30 years of experience ahead of me. only gonna get so far with the time i got left.
in any case, might not be 1,000 other jobs i could get, but there sure as hell are 1,000 other things i could do. if i had to do something other than what i do now, i’d do something other than what i do now.
people are adaptable. it’s the special thing we bring to the table as a species.
my point overall is that programming per se is actually a fairly small part of working with technology. and adapting to changes in that industry doesn’t have that much to do with “learning a new scripting language”.
to make a brief reply to wj, i think folks in almost all fields have had to adapt to changing conditions to a degree at least as large as that experienced to technology practicioners.
Don’t lose your gig.
don’t plan to.
however, if i do lose my gig, i’ll find another one. if i can’t find or don’t want a tech gig i’ll do something else. i won’t make as much money, because i’ll have to learn the ins and outs of the new thing. so, i’ll learn the ins and outs of the new thing. and then i’ll be good at that.
probably would never get to the point of being able to add the amount of value that i do, or earn as much as i do, with what i do now, because i don’t have 30 years of experience ahead of me. only gonna get so far with the time i got left.
in any case, might not be 1,000 other jobs i could get, but there sure as hell are 1,000 other things i could do. if i had to do something other than what i do now, i’d do something other than what i do now.
people are adaptable. it’s the special thing we bring to the table as a species.
my point overall is that programming per se is actually a fairly small part of working with technology. and adapting to changes in that industry doesn’t have that much to do with “learning a new scripting language”.
to make a brief reply to wj, i think folks in almost all fields have had to adapt to changing conditions to a degree at least as large as that experienced to technology practicioners.
But what I’ve really had to learn, and learn over and over, and continue to learn, is how to take a hard problem apart so that you can actually do something with it, and how to communicate my understanding of that to other people so that they can see the value of the solution, and how to keep a small group of people all heading in the same direction long enough to get it done…
That sounds an awful lot like management to me. Can everyone be managers ?
The deep mind story is an interesting one, though, as a machine has taken a fairly hard problem – playing Go – which humans have been working in for a very long time, and come up with solutions which we haven’t yet contemplated, in a way we don’t fully understand.
It’s a very particular problem, but it is nonetheless a very different kind of machine.
But what I’ve really had to learn, and learn over and over, and continue to learn, is how to take a hard problem apart so that you can actually do something with it, and how to communicate my understanding of that to other people so that they can see the value of the solution, and how to keep a small group of people all heading in the same direction long enough to get it done…
That sounds an awful lot like management to me. Can everyone be managers ?
The deep mind story is an interesting one, though, as a machine has taken a fairly hard problem – playing Go – which humans have been working in for a very long time, and come up with solutions which we haven’t yet contemplated, in a way we don’t fully understand.
It’s a very particular problem, but it is nonetheless a very different kind of machine.
This is also, perhaps, pertinent:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Amara
This is also, perhaps, pertinent:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Amara
If quantum computers become a thing, they have the potential of being a whole new kind of gamechanger. They can potentially solve in seconds problems that would take current computers 100’s, 1,000’s, millions of years to solve.
If quantum computers become a thing, they have the potential of being a whole new kind of gamechanger. They can potentially solve in seconds problems that would take current computers 100’s, 1,000’s, millions of years to solve.
Can everyone be managers ?
No. Not everyone is good at it, for one thing. I sure as hell am not.
But pretty much everyone can bring some kind of value to a situation.
Maybe the question to ask is what humans bring to the table that machines don’t. And maybe how do we adjust our perspective to value those things.
Can everyone be managers ?
No. Not everyone is good at it, for one thing. I sure as hell am not.
But pretty much everyone can bring some kind of value to a situation.
Maybe the question to ask is what humans bring to the table that machines don’t. And maybe how do we adjust our perspective to value those things.
Maybe the question to ask is what humans bring to the table that machines don’t. And maybe how do we adjust our perspective to value those things.
It’s a good question – but is /are the answer(s) absolute, or are they a shrinking set ?
Maybe the question to ask is what humans bring to the table that machines don’t. And maybe how do we adjust our perspective to value those things.
It’s a good question – but is /are the answer(s) absolute, or are they a shrinking set ?
Maybe the question to ask is what humans bring to the table that machines don’t.
humanity.
how do we adjust our perspective to value those things
we should already be valuing them.
Maybe the question to ask is what humans bring to the table that machines don’t.
humanity.
how do we adjust our perspective to value those things
we should already be valuing them.
But who, I ask, is going to end up cleaning out the gutters?
A gutter-cleaning robot?
But who, I ask, is going to end up cleaning out the gutters?
A gutter-cleaning robot?
“But who, I ask, is going to end up cleaning out the gutters?
A gutter-cleaning robot?”
Guttba. Like a Roomba, in your gutters, killin yer leaf-dudes.
“But who, I ask, is going to end up cleaning out the gutters?
A gutter-cleaning robot?”
Guttba. Like a Roomba, in your gutters, killin yer leaf-dudes.
iRobot Looj Gutter Cleaning Robot Review (YouTube)
iRobot Looj Gutter Cleaning Robot Review (YouTube)
I would buy a gutter cleaning robot, as long as I didn’t have to spend more time and effort creating the conditions for the gutter cleaning robot to work efficiently than i would spend just cleaning the damned gutters,
someday soon somebody is going to roll out a self-driving semi-trailer. which will offer great savings and increased profits to the trucking industry. and threaten layoffs for lots of drivers. and to take advantage of the fabulous self-driving semi-trailer, we’re going to have to re-engineer a non-trivial amount of the public highway system, because the self-driving semi-trailer is going to require some driving conditions to be optimized in order to function in the real world. and the public will pay for that.
in my opinion, what humans bring to the table is not an especially shrinking set. compared to what machines are capable of, it’s unimaginably vast. what gives machines the edge is the imperative for everything to be done as cheaply and efficiently as possible. even if that means the rest of the world has to conform itself to the conditions under which everything can be done as cheaply and efficiently as possible.
used a self-service checkout line recently?
prioritizing cheapness and efficiency is a social choice. and it’s one that favors whoever it is that owns the robots.
I would buy a gutter cleaning robot, as long as I didn’t have to spend more time and effort creating the conditions for the gutter cleaning robot to work efficiently than i would spend just cleaning the damned gutters,
someday soon somebody is going to roll out a self-driving semi-trailer. which will offer great savings and increased profits to the trucking industry. and threaten layoffs for lots of drivers. and to take advantage of the fabulous self-driving semi-trailer, we’re going to have to re-engineer a non-trivial amount of the public highway system, because the self-driving semi-trailer is going to require some driving conditions to be optimized in order to function in the real world. and the public will pay for that.
in my opinion, what humans bring to the table is not an especially shrinking set. compared to what machines are capable of, it’s unimaginably vast. what gives machines the edge is the imperative for everything to be done as cheaply and efficiently as possible. even if that means the rest of the world has to conform itself to the conditions under which everything can be done as cheaply and efficiently as possible.
used a self-service checkout line recently?
prioritizing cheapness and efficiency is a social choice. and it’s one that favors whoever it is that owns the robots.
https://condenaststore.com/featured/just-ignore-him-paul-noth.html
https://condenaststore.com/featured/just-ignore-him-paul-noth.html
used a self-service checkout line recently?
Anyone old enough to remember when there were actually people to pump your gas?
Only tellers, no ATMs?
Toll-takers on the Mass Pike?
Human telephone operators who would connect your call, and others who would give you a phone # if you gave them a name…?
used a self-service checkout line recently?
Anyone old enough to remember when there were actually people to pump your gas?
Only tellers, no ATMs?
Toll-takers on the Mass Pike?
Human telephone operators who would connect your call, and others who would give you a phone # if you gave them a name…?
They wouldn’t hire you because you are good at making big problems little problems and solving them
to clarify: i don’t make big problems into small problems. if your approach is making big problems into small ones, you’ve lost the plot. if that’s your approach, you’re not actually solving the problem. you’re solving a different problem, and pretending you solved the real one.
what i have tried to learn to do is make hard problems *tractable*, which is to say, amenable to a solution that is sufficient for the purposes at hand. a different thing.
all of this is kind of neither here nor their. what set me off is the fact that i have a passing familiarity with wj’s background and resume, and to say that his career was one of “learning new scripting languages” is absurd.
he is a modest, polite, and circumspect individual, so he would never make that point. i’m an obnoxious ass, so i will.
thinking that working in tech is programming is like thinking that building houses is hammering nails and sawing boards. people who work with technology aren’t fungible human code generators, just like people who work in any field are not fungible drones in whatever it is that they do. folks who work in retail are not, as the author of the article you cited would have it, “sweater folders”.
a large part of why people’s livelihoods are at risk is exactly the attitude that human beings, and the work they do, are fucking fungible cogs in a machine.
They wouldn’t hire you because you are good at making big problems little problems and solving them
to clarify: i don’t make big problems into small problems. if your approach is making big problems into small ones, you’ve lost the plot. if that’s your approach, you’re not actually solving the problem. you’re solving a different problem, and pretending you solved the real one.
what i have tried to learn to do is make hard problems *tractable*, which is to say, amenable to a solution that is sufficient for the purposes at hand. a different thing.
all of this is kind of neither here nor their. what set me off is the fact that i have a passing familiarity with wj’s background and resume, and to say that his career was one of “learning new scripting languages” is absurd.
he is a modest, polite, and circumspect individual, so he would never make that point. i’m an obnoxious ass, so i will.
thinking that working in tech is programming is like thinking that building houses is hammering nails and sawing boards. people who work with technology aren’t fungible human code generators, just like people who work in any field are not fungible drones in whatever it is that they do. folks who work in retail are not, as the author of the article you cited would have it, “sweater folders”.
a large part of why people’s livelihoods are at risk is exactly the attitude that human beings, and the work they do, are fucking fungible cogs in a machine.
Anyone old enough to remember when there were actually
. . .
Human telephone operators who would connect your call, and others who would give you a phone # if you gave them a name…?
I can remember when you picked up the phone and rang the operator. You gave her a name, and she would connect you — there were no numbers in our area (although there were different rung patterns, involving numbers of rings). Does that count?
Anyone old enough to remember when there were actually
. . .
Human telephone operators who would connect your call, and others who would give you a phone # if you gave them a name…?
I can remember when you picked up the phone and rang the operator. You gave her a name, and she would connect you — there were no numbers in our area (although there were different rung patterns, involving numbers of rings). Does that count?
Not did I believe wj’s career was simply learning a new scripting language, nor was there any insult implied. However, his industry dudnt disappear, he had a career progression, possibly forced, that had him learn different ways to use his technology aptitude. I have worked in three of the four dusciplines he named and managed a NOC, build, rollout and execution. I’ve spent over 30 years in tech.
Sometimes a comment is simplified to make a point. I am not sure you disagreed with the point.
Not did I believe wj’s career was simply learning a new scripting language, nor was there any insult implied. However, his industry dudnt disappear, he had a career progression, possibly forced, that had him learn different ways to use his technology aptitude. I have worked in three of the four dusciplines he named and managed a NOC, build, rollout and execution. I’ve spent over 30 years in tech.
Sometimes a comment is simplified to make a point. I am not sure you disagreed with the point.
The author was making the point that jobs lost by closing retail stores across the country couldnt be replaced by having a big warehouse in Silicon Valley.
If you want honesty I was pretty insulted that wj thought everyone should just go learn something new, what’s the big deal? You echoed that.
The author was making the point that jobs lost by closing retail stores across the country couldnt be replaced by having a big warehouse in Silicon Valley.
If you want honesty I was pretty insulted that wj thought everyone should just go learn something new, what’s the big deal? You echoed that.
If you want honesty I was pretty insulted that wj thought everyone should just go learn something new, what’s the big deal?
Looks like I’ve been unclear again.
I wasn’t saying that I thought everyone should (or could) “just go learn something new”. I was saying that that was my initial, unthinking reaction. And suggesting that a similar phenomena might be present in the folks developing robots.
I tried, obviously with less than complete success, to say that once I stopped and thought it thru, I knew things just aren’t that simple.
If you want honesty I was pretty insulted that wj thought everyone should just go learn something new, what’s the big deal?
Looks like I’ve been unclear again.
I wasn’t saying that I thought everyone should (or could) “just go learn something new”. I was saying that that was my initial, unthinking reaction. And suggesting that a similar phenomena might be present in the folks developing robots.
I tried, obviously with less than complete success, to say that once I stopped and thought it thru, I knew things just aren’t that simple.
Yes, in tech you might call it
“you are good at making big problems little problems and solving them”
There’s growing opportunities in RWNJ/Nazi politics “making little problems into big problems and then not solving them”. Pretty lucrative, it seems.
Yes, in tech you might call it
“you are good at making big problems little problems and solving them”
There’s growing opportunities in RWNJ/Nazi politics “making little problems into big problems and then not solving them”. Pretty lucrative, it seems.
Cool wj, sorry I misunderstood.
Cool wj, sorry I misunderstood.
While, in the past, they had to run up and down hot warehouses picking items to make up orders, workers in Amazon warehouses now stand in one spot assembling orders while the robots run up and down the warehouses.
Amazon warehouses are mostly automated, Crazy Amazon warehouse robots.. (YouTube)
While, in the past, they had to run up and down hot warehouses picking items to make up orders, workers in Amazon warehouses now stand in one spot assembling orders while the robots run up and down the warehouses.
Amazon warehouses are mostly automated, Crazy Amazon warehouse robots.. (YouTube)
No worries, Marty.
No worries, Marty.
Janie–
You haven’t visited Oregon in a while, I take it. Still can’t pump your own gas there! Hard to get used to on the occasions I go back.
Janie–
You haven’t visited Oregon in a while, I take it. Still can’t pump your own gas there! Hard to get used to on the occasions I go back.
Still can’t pump your own gas there!
New Jersey, Oregon, and Huntington, New York.
Still can’t pump your own gas there!
New Jersey, Oregon, and Huntington, New York.
You haven’t visited Oregon in a while, I take it. Still can’t pump your own gas there! Hard to get used to on the occasions I go back.
I always forget. I pull up to the pump, get out of the car… and suddenly, like a genie, there’s the gas station attendant, asking me to let him pump the gas. They’re always nice about it, even though it must happen all the time with out-of-towners.
Regarding sex robots: Never mind the sex. Once there are robots who can hold a conversation, are cheerful and positive, enjoy going out and doing stuff, and maybe cuddle well, *then* we’re in big trouble. Because at that point, I’d want one!
You haven’t visited Oregon in a while, I take it. Still can’t pump your own gas there! Hard to get used to on the occasions I go back.
I always forget. I pull up to the pump, get out of the car… and suddenly, like a genie, there’s the gas station attendant, asking me to let him pump the gas. They’re always nice about it, even though it must happen all the time with out-of-towners.
Regarding sex robots: Never mind the sex. Once there are robots who can hold a conversation, are cheerful and positive, enjoy going out and doing stuff, and maybe cuddle well, *then* we’re in big trouble. Because at that point, I’d want one!
There’s growing opportunities in RWNJ/Nazi politics “making little problems into big problems and then not solving them”.
lol, that about sums it up
There’s growing opportunities in RWNJ/Nazi politics “making little problems into big problems and then not solving them”.
lol, that about sums it up
If you want honesty I was pretty insulted that wj thought everyone should just go learn something new, what’s the big deal? You echoed that.
as wj notes, i think you misread his point.
there are people whose livelihoods are at risk from automation. there are lots of people whose livelihoods are at risk, not from automation per se, but from technology-driven “disruption” of the field they work in. or, for that matter, finance-driven disruption.
and it is callous to simply say to those folks, sorry, go learn to do something else. not because they can’t learn to do something else, but because they are probably going to take a big step back in domain-specific expertise, and therefore earning power. and, there may be 100 other kinds of disruptions. they may have to move. they may have to re-organize family and other personal commitments and responsibilities. on and on.
mostly i think the whole “just go learn something else” thing comes from a kind of professional arrogance that is common in the technology industry. also in finance, for that matter, and among the entrepreneurial class.
they have the special sauce, everyone else needs to fall in line or get the hell out of the way.
my point, not wj’s point, is that what people bring to their work lives are personal skills and experiences that are not a simple function of “training”. and, those things are in fact transferable to a very wide range of contexts.
to tell people “go learn to code” is not very useful. there are a million 19 year old kids who have been coding for 10 years already and who will happily kick your ass in exchange for $50k and an unlimited supply of mountain dew.
giving people a bag of boot-camp training class level skills of any kind and then tossing them into the labor market to sink or swim is not that useful.
helping people understand and develop the unique personal qualities that they bring, not just to work, but to life, is useful. those are the things that are going to enable them to create value in ways that no machine will be able to touch.
are you patient, or impulsive?
are you cautious, or can you tolerate risk?
can you sustain focus on a boring task that nonetheless needs careful attention, or do you need new and interesting things all the time?
all of the above traits are useful in different contexts. lots of folks can switch from one to another, as and when needed.
humans will not beat machines in categories like fast, or cheap, or relentlessly and precisely repeatable. if we organize ourselves in ways that make fast, cheap, and uniform the highest values, machines will continue to make human work redundant.
fast, cheap, and uniform are not the only available virtues.
also, for the record, playing Go is not a hard problem. it’s complicated, perhaps, which is not the same as hard. human excellence in things like Go or chess has an upper limit because humans can only hold so much in mind. the number of permutations and possible paths available in complex games will exceed human capacity fairly quickly. machines on the other hand are good at stuff like that.
all of that is complexity, and its complexity of a fairly mechanical sort. given a set of rules, find optimal solutions.
what makes things hard is not, specifically, complexity. complexity can be a factor, but what makes problems hard is when there are no clearly optimal solutions, period.
that is where humans add value.
If you want honesty I was pretty insulted that wj thought everyone should just go learn something new, what’s the big deal? You echoed that.
as wj notes, i think you misread his point.
there are people whose livelihoods are at risk from automation. there are lots of people whose livelihoods are at risk, not from automation per se, but from technology-driven “disruption” of the field they work in. or, for that matter, finance-driven disruption.
and it is callous to simply say to those folks, sorry, go learn to do something else. not because they can’t learn to do something else, but because they are probably going to take a big step back in domain-specific expertise, and therefore earning power. and, there may be 100 other kinds of disruptions. they may have to move. they may have to re-organize family and other personal commitments and responsibilities. on and on.
mostly i think the whole “just go learn something else” thing comes from a kind of professional arrogance that is common in the technology industry. also in finance, for that matter, and among the entrepreneurial class.
they have the special sauce, everyone else needs to fall in line or get the hell out of the way.
my point, not wj’s point, is that what people bring to their work lives are personal skills and experiences that are not a simple function of “training”. and, those things are in fact transferable to a very wide range of contexts.
to tell people “go learn to code” is not very useful. there are a million 19 year old kids who have been coding for 10 years already and who will happily kick your ass in exchange for $50k and an unlimited supply of mountain dew.
giving people a bag of boot-camp training class level skills of any kind and then tossing them into the labor market to sink or swim is not that useful.
helping people understand and develop the unique personal qualities that they bring, not just to work, but to life, is useful. those are the things that are going to enable them to create value in ways that no machine will be able to touch.
are you patient, or impulsive?
are you cautious, or can you tolerate risk?
can you sustain focus on a boring task that nonetheless needs careful attention, or do you need new and interesting things all the time?
all of the above traits are useful in different contexts. lots of folks can switch from one to another, as and when needed.
humans will not beat machines in categories like fast, or cheap, or relentlessly and precisely repeatable. if we organize ourselves in ways that make fast, cheap, and uniform the highest values, machines will continue to make human work redundant.
fast, cheap, and uniform are not the only available virtues.
also, for the record, playing Go is not a hard problem. it’s complicated, perhaps, which is not the same as hard. human excellence in things like Go or chess has an upper limit because humans can only hold so much in mind. the number of permutations and possible paths available in complex games will exceed human capacity fairly quickly. machines on the other hand are good at stuff like that.
all of that is complexity, and its complexity of a fairly mechanical sort. given a set of rules, find optimal solutions.
what makes things hard is not, specifically, complexity. complexity can be a factor, but what makes problems hard is when there are no clearly optimal solutions, period.
that is where humans add value.
You may think that work is ennobling and the need to work overcomes sloth, so we should choose to keep tasks unautomated, and keep most of the population sufficiently impoverished that they will do them for money.
That’s too close to Carlyle’s “beneficient whip” for my liking. I think we should automate as much as we can, and enjoy the resulting leisure time.
Of course, we need a Universal Basic Income, as Nigel implies. The Democrats should adopt the policy, initially at some affordably low level. Pay it to every citizen, but treat it as taxable income. Cut the minimum wage accordingly. Cut food stamps by some fraction of the UBI. Don’t pay it to unnaturalized immigrants. There’s something for almost everyone to like there.
You may think that work is ennobling and the need to work overcomes sloth, so we should choose to keep tasks unautomated, and keep most of the population sufficiently impoverished that they will do them for money.
That’s too close to Carlyle’s “beneficient whip” for my liking. I think we should automate as much as we can, and enjoy the resulting leisure time.
Of course, we need a Universal Basic Income, as Nigel implies. The Democrats should adopt the policy, initially at some affordably low level. Pay it to every citizen, but treat it as taxable income. Cut the minimum wage accordingly. Cut food stamps by some fraction of the UBI. Don’t pay it to unnaturalized immigrants. There’s something for almost everyone to like there.
obligatory book reference:
The Silver Metal Lover Tanith Lee
A subversive young-adult SF novel from the 1980s, it’s far better than the title would suggest.
obligatory book reference:
The Silver Metal Lover Tanith Lee
A subversive young-adult SF novel from the 1980s, it’s far better than the title would suggest.
russell: they have the special sauce, everyone else needs to fall in line or get the hell out of the way.
From Marty’s linked article that led off the post:
I mean, it’s not like isolating the lords from the serfs was also some brilliant new idea that the Uber people figured out in their dazzling cleverness.
russell: they have the special sauce, everyone else needs to fall in line or get the hell out of the way.
From Marty’s linked article that led off the post:
I mean, it’s not like isolating the lords from the serfs was also some brilliant new idea that the Uber people figured out in their dazzling cleverness.
You may think that work is ennobling and the need to work overcomes sloth, so we should choose to keep tasks unautomated, and keep most of the population sufficiently impoverished that they will do them for money.
If that’s what you took away from my comments here, either I need to improve my writing, or you need to improve your reading.
I don’t think work is “ennobling”, I think it’s a worthwhile human activity, worthy of respect. I don’t think the need to work overcomes sloth, I think engagement with the task at hand overcomes sloth.
I don’t think we should keep tasks unautomated so that folks will have to work in order to eat. I’m more than fine with automating drudgery.
I’d be more than fine with automating lots of things and then letting people enjoy the resulting leisure. Or, as is more likely, doing other things that humans are better at than machines are.
As long as the dynamic is that Capital owns the robots, such that all of the value created from automation flows to Capital, your dream of automating everything and letting people “enjoy the resulting leisure time” will remain a dream.
The normal dynamic is not to create leisure time for anybody. The normal or common dynamic is that some useful activity is rationalized to support automation, the process of rationalizing it shifts the burden of dealing with all of the messy complications and anomalies to human users, and the value created by automating the parts that can be rationalized flows to capital-C Capital.
Do you disagree?
I’m fine with a universal basic income. My expectation that such a thing will ever come to pass, in the United States, within the next generation or two, is borderline nil.
There are folks – a lot of folks – who ascribe to Carlisle’s whip in one form or other. I am not among them.
it’s not like isolating the lords from the serfs was also some brilliant new idea that the Uber people figured out
No, their innovation was doing it with an app.
You may think that work is ennobling and the need to work overcomes sloth, so we should choose to keep tasks unautomated, and keep most of the population sufficiently impoverished that they will do them for money.
If that’s what you took away from my comments here, either I need to improve my writing, or you need to improve your reading.
I don’t think work is “ennobling”, I think it’s a worthwhile human activity, worthy of respect. I don’t think the need to work overcomes sloth, I think engagement with the task at hand overcomes sloth.
I don’t think we should keep tasks unautomated so that folks will have to work in order to eat. I’m more than fine with automating drudgery.
I’d be more than fine with automating lots of things and then letting people enjoy the resulting leisure. Or, as is more likely, doing other things that humans are better at than machines are.
As long as the dynamic is that Capital owns the robots, such that all of the value created from automation flows to Capital, your dream of automating everything and letting people “enjoy the resulting leisure time” will remain a dream.
The normal dynamic is not to create leisure time for anybody. The normal or common dynamic is that some useful activity is rationalized to support automation, the process of rationalizing it shifts the burden of dealing with all of the messy complications and anomalies to human users, and the value created by automating the parts that can be rationalized flows to capital-C Capital.
Do you disagree?
I’m fine with a universal basic income. My expectation that such a thing will ever come to pass, in the United States, within the next generation or two, is borderline nil.
There are folks – a lot of folks – who ascribe to Carlisle’s whip in one form or other. I am not among them.
it’s not like isolating the lords from the serfs was also some brilliant new idea that the Uber people figured out
No, their innovation was doing it with an app.
Patricia Mestas
Patricia Mestas
helping people understand and develop the unique personal qualities that they bring, not just to work, but to life, is useful. those are the things that are going to enable them to create value in ways that no machine will be able to touch.
And that, helping people work that out, is a skill that is going to end up being extremely valuable. I would worry that it would end up getting compensated like another extremely valuable skill: elementary school teaching. But it would be a huge value add nevertheless — whether we end up compensating it properly or not.
helping people understand and develop the unique personal qualities that they bring, not just to work, but to life, is useful. those are the things that are going to enable them to create value in ways that no machine will be able to touch.
And that, helping people work that out, is a skill that is going to end up being extremely valuable. I would worry that it would end up getting compensated like another extremely valuable skill: elementary school teaching. But it would be a huge value add nevertheless — whether we end up compensating it properly or not.
I don’t think the need to work overcomes sloth, I think engagement with the task at hand overcomes sloth.
And we have only to look into the time and effort that people will devote to their hobbies. (Some of which, be it noted, look for all the world like drudgery from the outside.) Certainly there are couch potatoes among us. But a lot of people are happy to spend time working on something, and engaging with others who do the same kind of thing. So it’s not like the whole country would collapse into utter sloth.**
** Sloth, be it noted, is mankind’s most underappreciated virtue. It is, after all, responsible for all human technological progress. Who invented the wheel? Some guy who was too lazy to keep carrying stuff around in his arms. Rinse and repeat for most technology. Granted the occasional hobbyist — the Wright Brothers come to mind. But mostly, it’s guys who want something done and dislike doing it manually.
I don’t think the need to work overcomes sloth, I think engagement with the task at hand overcomes sloth.
And we have only to look into the time and effort that people will devote to their hobbies. (Some of which, be it noted, look for all the world like drudgery from the outside.) Certainly there are couch potatoes among us. But a lot of people are happy to spend time working on something, and engaging with others who do the same kind of thing. So it’s not like the whole country would collapse into utter sloth.**
** Sloth, be it noted, is mankind’s most underappreciated virtue. It is, after all, responsible for all human technological progress. Who invented the wheel? Some guy who was too lazy to keep carrying stuff around in his arms. Rinse and repeat for most technology. Granted the occasional hobbyist — the Wright Brothers come to mind. But mostly, it’s guys who want something done and dislike doing it manually.
Russell, my “you may think” was addressed to readers in general.
Are you saying the USA should restrict automation because it won’t sufficiently redistribute wealth? My view is that both are difficult but redistribution would be easier to achieve as well as much more desirable.
Russell, my “you may think” was addressed to readers in general.
Are you saying the USA should restrict automation because it won’t sufficiently redistribute wealth? My view is that both are difficult but redistribution would be easier to achieve as well as much more desirable.
Who invented the wheel?
someone who was so high on his own supply that he didn’t care that he was putting countless StuffCarriers out of jobs.
Who invented the wheel?
someone who was so high on his own supply that he didn’t care that he was putting countless StuffCarriers out of jobs.
Here’s another angle:
http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/10/01/551018759/are-hunter-gatherers-the-happiest-humans-to-inhabit-earth
Here’s another angle:
http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/10/01/551018759/are-hunter-gatherers-the-happiest-humans-to-inhabit-earth
someone who was so high on his own supply that he didn’t care that he was putting countless StuffCarriers out of jobs.
yes indeedy. Also the invention was most likely delayed for several millennia due to not having patent law at the time.
someone who was so high on his own supply that he didn’t care that he was putting countless StuffCarriers out of jobs.
yes indeedy. Also the invention was most likely delayed for several millennia due to not having patent law at the time.
Russell, my “you may think” was addressed to readers in general.
oops.
thanks for the clarification!
Are you saying the USA should restrict automation because it won’t sufficiently redistribute wealth?
I’m not saying anyone should restrict automation at all.
Do I want to wash my clothes by hand? No, I do not.
I’m saying that the way, or a way, to address the dislocations created by automation is to focus on what people are uniquely able to do. And find ways to organize how we live so as to recognize the value of those things.
What that “looks like” depends on circumstances. But to follow up on wj’s comment, the fact that somebody who cranks out single-page apps from a framework template is paid more than a school teacher tells me that we aren’t really valuing the things that humans are, uniquely, good at.
And I’m not picking on people who crank out single-page apps from templates. Or even the people who create the frameworks and the templates. It’s nice to be able to order burritos from a smart phone.
Helping kids to develop their minds, and themselves as human beings, is even better.
IMO.
These are fundamentally social choices. They aren’t natural laws, they are decisions we make as a society and a culture.
Russell, my “you may think” was addressed to readers in general.
oops.
thanks for the clarification!
Are you saying the USA should restrict automation because it won’t sufficiently redistribute wealth?
I’m not saying anyone should restrict automation at all.
Do I want to wash my clothes by hand? No, I do not.
I’m saying that the way, or a way, to address the dislocations created by automation is to focus on what people are uniquely able to do. And find ways to organize how we live so as to recognize the value of those things.
What that “looks like” depends on circumstances. But to follow up on wj’s comment, the fact that somebody who cranks out single-page apps from a framework template is paid more than a school teacher tells me that we aren’t really valuing the things that humans are, uniquely, good at.
And I’m not picking on people who crank out single-page apps from templates. Or even the people who create the frameworks and the templates. It’s nice to be able to order burritos from a smart phone.
Helping kids to develop their minds, and themselves as human beings, is even better.
IMO.
These are fundamentally social choices. They aren’t natural laws, they are decisions we make as a society and a culture.
Here, lemme cite an example of what a different set of social and culture choices and norms looks like.
I know I’ve shared this before at some point, but at the risk of being really really boring, the Mondragon Corporation employs about 75,000 people. They are the 10th largest commercial entity in Spain. They did about 12 billion in revenue in 2015.
They are based on, among other things, the idea that labor is of greater value and importance than capital. They operate on an egalitarian, democratic model of corporate governance. They adhere to a principle of limited return on equity, and instead distribute wealth to employees. Who they think of as co-participants in a co-operative effort, rather than employees.
Average ratio of highest to lowest paid member is 5:1.
They are very, very successful.
An arrangement like this would be unthinkable in this country. We do not have the cultural and social traditions that would allow it to, remotely, make sense. Nobody would believe it was possible.
And yet it exists.
All of that – the fact that it exists and thrives, the fact that it would be utterly outside the realm of what could be imagined let alone attempted here – is a function of social and cultural norms. Which are, in turn, a function of social and cultural choices.
What does it look like to value human beings and their contributions, even above those of capital and machinery?
That’s what it looks like. It’s there to see if we want to see it.
Here, lemme cite an example of what a different set of social and culture choices and norms looks like.
I know I’ve shared this before at some point, but at the risk of being really really boring, the Mondragon Corporation employs about 75,000 people. They are the 10th largest commercial entity in Spain. They did about 12 billion in revenue in 2015.
They are based on, among other things, the idea that labor is of greater value and importance than capital. They operate on an egalitarian, democratic model of corporate governance. They adhere to a principle of limited return on equity, and instead distribute wealth to employees. Who they think of as co-participants in a co-operative effort, rather than employees.
Average ratio of highest to lowest paid member is 5:1.
They are very, very successful.
An arrangement like this would be unthinkable in this country. We do not have the cultural and social traditions that would allow it to, remotely, make sense. Nobody would believe it was possible.
And yet it exists.
All of that – the fact that it exists and thrives, the fact that it would be utterly outside the realm of what could be imagined let alone attempted here – is a function of social and cultural norms. Which are, in turn, a function of social and cultural choices.
What does it look like to value human beings and their contributions, even above those of capital and machinery?
That’s what it looks like. It’s there to see if we want to see it.
Also the invention was most likely delayed for several millennia due to not having patent law at the time.
And steam engine technology was delayed about a half-century or so because someone did have a patent.
Also the invention was most likely delayed for several millennia due to not having patent law at the time.
And steam engine technology was delayed about a half-century or so because someone did have a patent.
I should have put a 🙂 on that… 🙂
I should have put a 🙂 on that… 🙂
Mondragon again.
It sounds like some kind of kum-ba-ya fairyland to us. To them, it’s just what they do.
They don’t have to do it that way, they choose to.
Mondragon again.
It sounds like some kind of kum-ba-ya fairyland to us. To them, it’s just what they do.
They don’t have to do it that way, they choose to.
Part of the problem with school teachers is that they are largely paid based on showing up year after year. Not how well they do after showing up.
Part of the problem with school teachers is that they are largely paid based on showing up year after year. Not how well they do after showing up.
Perhaps, Western society isn’t some magical state in which technology free us from the shackles of acquiring basic needs and allows us to maximize leisure and pleasure.
Instead, maybe, modernization has done just the opposite. Maybe the most leisurely days of humanity are behind us — way, way behind us.
I don’t know about hunter/gatherers quality of life. But I would note that an enormous number of places have seen society transition from hunter-gatherer to agriculture. And no place has seen the opposite (absent massive trauma and deaths).
And nobody, absolutely nobody, could be under the illusion that subsistence agriculture is preferable to manufacturing — explicitly including sweat shop work. Given the opportunity to transition from the former to the latter, people queue up to grab those jobs. Not because they are wonderful jobs, but because the alternative is far worse. Don’t believe it? Just spend a little while (and a half day might be sufficient) doing subsistence agriculture.
Yeah, Western society (including the Eastern Asia manifestation) may have downsides. But you have to be willfully blind to think that the alternatives are better.
Perhaps, Western society isn’t some magical state in which technology free us from the shackles of acquiring basic needs and allows us to maximize leisure and pleasure.
Instead, maybe, modernization has done just the opposite. Maybe the most leisurely days of humanity are behind us — way, way behind us.
I don’t know about hunter/gatherers quality of life. But I would note that an enormous number of places have seen society transition from hunter-gatherer to agriculture. And no place has seen the opposite (absent massive trauma and deaths).
And nobody, absolutely nobody, could be under the illusion that subsistence agriculture is preferable to manufacturing — explicitly including sweat shop work. Given the opportunity to transition from the former to the latter, people queue up to grab those jobs. Not because they are wonderful jobs, but because the alternative is far worse. Don’t believe it? Just spend a little while (and a half day might be sufficient) doing subsistence agriculture.
Yeah, Western society (including the Eastern Asia manifestation) may have downsides. But you have to be willfully blind to think that the alternatives are better.
I often wonder what American society would look like if the salaries on offer for teachers and police officers were double what they are. For whatever reasons, those are the two professions I think of first.
I often wonder what American society would look like if the salaries on offer for teachers and police officers were double what they are. For whatever reasons, those are the two professions I think of first.
Part of the problem with school teachers…
Part of the problem with school teachers is that everybody gives them a ration of crap at every available opportunity.
You couldn’t pay me enough to do what they do. And you wouldn’t, because I couldn’t do it.
Part of the problem with school teachers…
Part of the problem with school teachers is that everybody gives them a ration of crap at every available opportunity.
You couldn’t pay me enough to do what they do. And you wouldn’t, because I couldn’t do it.
I don’t know about hunter/gatherers quality of life. But I would note that an enormous number of places have seen society transition from hunter-gatherer to agriculture.
Sure. And then from agriculture to industry – none of which necessarily has anything to do with happiness.
And no place has seen the opposite (absent massive trauma and deaths).
Not so fast!
http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.0030071
I don’t know about hunter/gatherers quality of life. But I would note that an enormous number of places have seen society transition from hunter-gatherer to agriculture.
Sure. And then from agriculture to industry – none of which necessarily has anything to do with happiness.
And no place has seen the opposite (absent massive trauma and deaths).
Not so fast!
http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.0030071
This is a large US corporation that has a very flat corporate structure.
The Morning Star Company: Self-Management
This is a large US corporation that has a very flat corporate structure.
The Morning Star Company: Self-Management
My experience both as a kid going through school and as a parent of 4 kids going through school is that the school teachers I interacted with were almost universally, with regard to their jobs, some of the most dedicated and passionate people I’ve met.
As far as I can tell, the incidence of shitty teachers is, at worst, no greater than the incidence of shitty anything-elses as professions go. The underperforming teach myth is just that – a myth, IMO.
My experience both as a kid going through school and as a parent of 4 kids going through school is that the school teachers I interacted with were almost universally, with regard to their jobs, some of the most dedicated and passionate people I’ve met.
As far as I can tell, the incidence of shitty teachers is, at worst, no greater than the incidence of shitty anything-elses as professions go. The underperforming teach myth is just that – a myth, IMO.
How Alcohol and Caffeine Helped Create Civilization: No two drugs have arguably defined human civilization the way alcohol and caffeine have.
How Alcohol and Caffeine Helped Create Civilization: No two drugs have arguably defined human civilization the way alcohol and caffeine have.
So Mondragon is more akin to a US coop company. It is organized into lots of coops and they manage at a very local level. It is not dissimilar to the way Ocean Spray is organized. The coop model has pros and cons and is not that uncommom in the US.
In fact, there is a US Federation of Coops. They are pretty stable businesses.
So Mondragon is more akin to a US coop company. It is organized into lots of coops and they manage at a very local level. It is not dissimilar to the way Ocean Spray is organized. The coop model has pros and cons and is not that uncommom in the US.
In fact, there is a US Federation of Coops. They are pretty stable businesses.
And then from agriculture to industry – none of which necessarily has anything to do with happiness.
Really? So why are people doing it? Indeed, they appear eager to do so.
Unless you are trying to distinguish between “happiness” and the relief that comes from having enough to eat. I suppose that we, at least, have the luxury to define happiness in a way that doesn’t have to include access to what we would regard as minimal necessities. But that’s not those in the “developing world” who are actually looking at making the transition.
And then from agriculture to industry – none of which necessarily has anything to do with happiness.
Really? So why are people doing it? Indeed, they appear eager to do so.
Unless you are trying to distinguish between “happiness” and the relief that comes from having enough to eat. I suppose that we, at least, have the luxury to define happiness in a way that doesn’t have to include access to what we would regard as minimal necessities. But that’s not those in the “developing world” who are actually looking at making the transition.
Unless you are trying to distinguish between “happiness” and the relief that comes from having enough to eat.
I don’t think anyone is touting the virtues of starvation. From the link (emphasis added):
I would imagine they stopped acquiring food for the week because they acquired enough food for the week.
Don’t get too upset about it, though, wj. I’m not going to force you to live in the bush. I just thought it was interesting, given our current discussion. It’s not my new Theory of Life.
Unless you are trying to distinguish between “happiness” and the relief that comes from having enough to eat.
I don’t think anyone is touting the virtues of starvation. From the link (emphasis added):
I would imagine they stopped acquiring food for the week because they acquired enough food for the week.
Don’t get too upset about it, though, wj. I’m not going to force you to live in the bush. I just thought it was interesting, given our current discussion. It’s not my new Theory of Life.
i spend about 90 minutes a week acquiring food. and even that feels like too much.
i spend about 90 minutes a week acquiring food. and even that feels like too much.
Some of you folks sound like a bunch of g-dammed communists! Vital bodily fluids are leaking out all over the place.
Drum on AI here.
Some of you folks sound like a bunch of g-dammed communists! Vital bodily fluids are leaking out all over the place.
Drum on AI here.
i spend about 90 minutes a week acquiring food. and even that feels like too much.
I’m fortunate enough to be at zero hours for food. But then, I’m looking at income from retirement savings for that — something that I suspect Bushmen don’t deal with. 😉
i spend about 90 minutes a week acquiring food. and even that feels like too much.
I’m fortunate enough to be at zero hours for food. But then, I’m looking at income from retirement savings for that — something that I suspect Bushmen don’t deal with. 😉
Drum is not a technologist, and has an exceedingly optimistic and rosy view of AI’s capabilities and the schedule on which they will manifest.
Drum is not a technologist, and has an exceedingly optimistic and rosy view of AI’s capabilities and the schedule on which they will manifest.
How Alcohol and Caffeine Helped Create Civilization: No two drugs have arguably defined human civilization the way alcohol and caffeine have.
I’ll have a Red Bull and vodka.
How Alcohol and Caffeine Helped Create Civilization: No two drugs have arguably defined human civilization the way alcohol and caffeine have.
I’ll have a Red Bull and vodka.
I don’t know about hunter/gatherers quality of life.
Opining without evidence:
I think h/g quality of life is high with low population density, and decreases dramatically when humans get too thick on the ground.
Dense populations require agriculture. IIRC, the onset of agriculture tends to correlate with reduced physical stature, increases in the frequency of disease, dramatically reduce the amount of time available for leisure, and introduce the opportunity for vastly increased differentiation of wealth and status.
I don’t know about hunter/gatherers quality of life.
Opining without evidence:
I think h/g quality of life is high with low population density, and decreases dramatically when humans get too thick on the ground.
Dense populations require agriculture. IIRC, the onset of agriculture tends to correlate with reduced physical stature, increases in the frequency of disease, dramatically reduce the amount of time available for leisure, and introduce the opportunity for vastly increased differentiation of wealth and status.
Drum is not a technologist, and has an exceedingly optimistic and rosy view of AI’s capabilities and the schedule on which they will manifest.
From Nigel’s Wiki link a bit upthread on Roy Amara:
Drum is not a technologist, and has an exceedingly optimistic and rosy view of AI’s capabilities and the schedule on which they will manifest.
From Nigel’s Wiki link a bit upthread on Roy Amara:
…and introduce the opportunity for vastly increased differentiation of wealth and status.
And the ones with the greatest wealth and power are the ones who decide what directions human societies will take, usually to their own benefit. Everyone else is more or less along for the ride – especially the slaves, who may be less than eager for humanity’s “advancement.”
…and introduce the opportunity for vastly increased differentiation of wealth and status.
And the ones with the greatest wealth and power are the ones who decide what directions human societies will take, usually to their own benefit. Everyone else is more or less along for the ride – especially the slaves, who may be less than eager for humanity’s “advancement.”
– especially the slaves, who may be less than eager for humanity’s “advancement.”
At least slaves have to be fed and sheltered to perform their defined role. Once freed by technology there is no reason for the powerful and wealthy to provide for them.
When Uber goes driverless, that’s 20M more in the bank for the 4,000.
– especially the slaves, who may be less than eager for humanity’s “advancement.”
At least slaves have to be fed and sheltered to perform their defined role. Once freed by technology there is no reason for the powerful and wealthy to provide for them.
When Uber goes driverless, that’s 20M more in the bank for the 4,000.
When Uber goes driverless, that’s 20M more in the bank for the 4,000.
The offset is that Uber will have to own/lease a vehicle fleet which they don’t have to do now.
When Uber goes driverless, that’s 20M more in the bank for the 4,000.
The offset is that Uber will have to own/lease a vehicle fleet which they don’t have to do now.
With complete information problems like Go, quantum computers may not even need to learn to play the game. Once the computer is given the rules, it may be able to see all possible outcomes of any move it makes. It need only then select the optimum move.
With complete information problems like Go, quantum computers may not even need to learn to play the game. Once the computer is given the rules, it may be able to see all possible outcomes of any move it makes. It need only then select the optimum move.
At least slaves have to be fed and sheltered to perform their defined role
Depends on the supply of slaves and the cost of acquiring them.
As a related but not completely related aside, Elizabeth Marshall Thomas’ “The Harmless People” is a really engaging and interesting book on the lives of the Kalahari Bushmen.
Happier, not happier, who knows. But different.
At least slaves have to be fed and sheltered to perform their defined role
Depends on the supply of slaves and the cost of acquiring them.
As a related but not completely related aside, Elizabeth Marshall Thomas’ “The Harmless People” is a really engaging and interesting book on the lives of the Kalahari Bushmen.
Happier, not happier, who knows. But different.
Part of the problem with school teachers is that everybody gives them a ration of crap at every available opportunity.
There’s that – and that just about everyone appears to think they’re an expert on education…
I can’t speak to US education, but from what knowledge I have, Charles is talking nonsense.
Part of the problem with school teachers is that everybody gives them a ration of crap at every available opportunity.
There’s that – and that just about everyone appears to think they’re an expert on education…
I can’t speak to US education, but from what knowledge I have, Charles is talking nonsense.
and they’ll be paying all of their earnings out as lawsuit settlements to the survivors of the victims of their clever little toys.
and they’ll be paying all of their earnings out as lawsuit settlements to the survivors of the victims of their clever little toys.
(Uber, that is)
(Uber, that is)
I can’t speak to US education, but from what knowledge I have, Charles is talking nonsense.
In the US, public school teachers are paid based largely on seniority. And when there’s a layoff, teachers with the least seniority are let go first. Last hired, first fired. No matter how good they are.
I can’t speak to US education, but from what knowledge I have, Charles is talking nonsense.
In the US, public school teachers are paid based largely on seniority. And when there’s a layoff, teachers with the least seniority are let go first. Last hired, first fired. No matter how good they are.
The offset is that Uber will have to own/lease a vehicle fleet which they don’t have to do now.
Why not just rent driverless cars on a per-trip basis, and pay the owners like they do now? Same business model, just a different kind of vehicle being sent.
The offset is that Uber will have to own/lease a vehicle fleet which they don’t have to do now.
Why not just rent driverless cars on a per-trip basis, and pay the owners like they do now? Same business model, just a different kind of vehicle being sent.
Same business model, just a different kind of vehicle being sent.
Good point.
Same business model, just a different kind of vehicle being sent.
Good point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M48oa1ZkUBY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M48oa1ZkUBY
Why not just rent driverless cars on a per-trip basis, and pay the owners like they do now?
I see an opportunity here.
Let’s say ZipCar goes to all driverless. An enterprising individual could book up all of the driverless ZipCars and then use them to answer driverless Uber calls.
Depending on pricing, there might be a tidy profit in driverless car arbitrage!
Why not just rent driverless cars on a per-trip basis, and pay the owners like they do now?
I see an opportunity here.
Let’s say ZipCar goes to all driverless. An enterprising individual could book up all of the driverless ZipCars and then use them to answer driverless Uber calls.
Depending on pricing, there might be a tidy profit in driverless car arbitrage!
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/07/myth-of-teacher-summer-vacation/397535/
Teaching entails a schedule unlike that of most other careers. Ostensibly, the typical teacher in the United States works 180 or so days annually, which comes with an average starting salary of a little over $36,000. But that excludes the work that he or she probably does throughout the summer, after school hours, and on the weekends. That 180-day policy is also a measure of the amount of time students—not necessarily teachers—must be in school. It doesn’t take into account professional-development time, parent-teacher conferences, and “in-service” skills-training days, for example.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/logan-smith/many-nc-teachers-working_b_8885406.html
According to data from the National Center for Education Statistics, about 16 percent of teachers nationwide are forced to work a second job outside the school system. In North Carolina, however, that number is closer to 25 percent — third-highest in the entire country. When you include teachers who take second jobs within the school system, more than half of North Carolina educators — a full 52 percent — work second jobs to supplement their salaries.
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/07/myth-of-teacher-summer-vacation/397535/
Teaching entails a schedule unlike that of most other careers. Ostensibly, the typical teacher in the United States works 180 or so days annually, which comes with an average starting salary of a little over $36,000. But that excludes the work that he or she probably does throughout the summer, after school hours, and on the weekends. That 180-day policy is also a measure of the amount of time students—not necessarily teachers—must be in school. It doesn’t take into account professional-development time, parent-teacher conferences, and “in-service” skills-training days, for example.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/logan-smith/many-nc-teachers-working_b_8885406.html
According to data from the National Center for Education Statistics, about 16 percent of teachers nationwide are forced to work a second job outside the school system. In North Carolina, however, that number is closer to 25 percent — third-highest in the entire country. When you include teachers who take second jobs within the school system, more than half of North Carolina educators — a full 52 percent — work second jobs to supplement their salaries.
But a lot of people are happy to spend time working on something, and engaging with others who do the same kind of thing. So it’s not like the whole country would collapse into utter sloth.
My fear is not that people would collapse into sloth, but that there are too many that would fill their time with things that are actively harmful. Particularly the young, and male. I remember me when I was of a certain age, suffering from testosterone poisoning and a lack of experience. Now that I’m retired, I can say, “Bless the fates that led me to applied math, systems analysis, and writing.”
But I spent a lot of years getting addicted to those, and accumulating interesting questions that I want to answer. 18-year-old me, left to his own devices, would have gotten into immense trouble.
But a lot of people are happy to spend time working on something, and engaging with others who do the same kind of thing. So it’s not like the whole country would collapse into utter sloth.
My fear is not that people would collapse into sloth, but that there are too many that would fill their time with things that are actively harmful. Particularly the young, and male. I remember me when I was of a certain age, suffering from testosterone poisoning and a lack of experience. Now that I’m retired, I can say, “Bless the fates that led me to applied math, systems analysis, and writing.”
But I spent a lot of years getting addicted to those, and accumulating interesting questions that I want to answer. 18-year-old me, left to his own devices, would have gotten into immense trouble.
No question that finding something constructive for teenage (and early 20s) males to do will be important. Indeed, it seems like a significant problem already.
Time was, those who couldn’t find paid work could be absorbed into the military. Which, in addition to teaching them a variety of skills, gave them a sense of belonging to something significant and important — which seems to be important to a lot of young men.
That no longer seems to be an acceptable social model. Although a little clever marketing could probably sell it to the right as “building up the military” and to the left as “publicly funded post-high school training.” We’d want to find uses for all that manpower that didn’t necessarily include fighting. But it could be worked out, I think.
No question that finding something constructive for teenage (and early 20s) males to do will be important. Indeed, it seems like a significant problem already.
Time was, those who couldn’t find paid work could be absorbed into the military. Which, in addition to teaching them a variety of skills, gave them a sense of belonging to something significant and important — which seems to be important to a lot of young men.
That no longer seems to be an acceptable social model. Although a little clever marketing could probably sell it to the right as “building up the military” and to the left as “publicly funded post-high school training.” We’d want to find uses for all that manpower that didn’t necessarily include fighting. But it could be worked out, I think.
Our imaginations are limited by our circumstances, so trying to imagine what the social developments would be to get us to Star Trek: Next Generation-style Earth society is a challenge. Absent the need to “work” for a living, I envision a massive expansion of recreational sporting leagues. I was no where close to an athlete, but I played intramural softball and basketball a bit in college and grad school. These days more golf, and darts.
For others, art, music, wood working, metal crafts, cooking, horticulture, beer making, distilling, paint ball, bridge, poker, etc., etc. Not everyone has visions, or talents but can assist in group endeavors to the limits of their abilities. My neighborhood is having their annual Halloween parade and festival tomorrow, people have contributed to all sorts of degrees to the group I’m walking with.
I will restrain my inner mcmanus from pooping on that utopian image. Speaking of which, there’s a thread over at Crooked Timber titled Utopia and Fairy Tales, Mr. Holbo is up to some of his usual shenanigans.
Our imaginations are limited by our circumstances, so trying to imagine what the social developments would be to get us to Star Trek: Next Generation-style Earth society is a challenge. Absent the need to “work” for a living, I envision a massive expansion of recreational sporting leagues. I was no where close to an athlete, but I played intramural softball and basketball a bit in college and grad school. These days more golf, and darts.
For others, art, music, wood working, metal crafts, cooking, horticulture, beer making, distilling, paint ball, bridge, poker, etc., etc. Not everyone has visions, or talents but can assist in group endeavors to the limits of their abilities. My neighborhood is having their annual Halloween parade and festival tomorrow, people have contributed to all sorts of degrees to the group I’m walking with.
I will restrain my inner mcmanus from pooping on that utopian image. Speaking of which, there’s a thread over at Crooked Timber titled Utopia and Fairy Tales, Mr. Holbo is up to some of his usual shenanigans.
“Part of the problem with
school teachersCongressmen is that they are largely paid based on showing up year after year. Not how well they do after showing up. And I can point to >50% of them that we’d be better off if they NEVER showed up.”Pay teachers the same as congressmen. They do more good and certainly less harm.
“Part of the problem with
school teachersCongressmen is that they are largely paid based on showing up year after year. Not how well they do after showing up. And I can point to >50% of them that we’d be better off if they NEVER showed up.”Pay teachers the same as congressmen. They do more good and certainly less harm.
My late uncle, British, was convinced that school was basically baby-sitting and you could probably teach kids everything they needed when they turn 18. I thought there was some truth to that, in that the actual content of what needed to be taught wasn’t that big. However, I’ve come to realize that teaching socialization etc is what that period is for.
Here in Japan, kids have a punishing schedule when they move into JHS, and it gets worse in HS. There is a part of me that really rebels against that, but sending my daughter back to the states was really not an option and it was more me being uncomfortable with it than her. She loved it and all the sacrifices she made felt like shared sacrifices rather than punishments. I felt like she missed a lot of stuff I got as a kid, but if she had gone to the states, there would be almost no way that she could have reintegrated herself back here.
I wonder if any kid laments ‘geez, I had to study too much’ when they look back on their life, though I recall an article about or by Gordon Brown who was educated in a special fast track group in Scotland lamenting the loss of opportunities. However, the difference is that here in Japan, it is not a fast track, it is a river and either you get in or you watch everyone move by.
My late uncle, British, was convinced that school was basically baby-sitting and you could probably teach kids everything they needed when they turn 18. I thought there was some truth to that, in that the actual content of what needed to be taught wasn’t that big. However, I’ve come to realize that teaching socialization etc is what that period is for.
Here in Japan, kids have a punishing schedule when they move into JHS, and it gets worse in HS. There is a part of me that really rebels against that, but sending my daughter back to the states was really not an option and it was more me being uncomfortable with it than her. She loved it and all the sacrifices she made felt like shared sacrifices rather than punishments. I felt like she missed a lot of stuff I got as a kid, but if she had gone to the states, there would be almost no way that she could have reintegrated herself back here.
I wonder if any kid laments ‘geez, I had to study too much’ when they look back on their life, though I recall an article about or by Gordon Brown who was educated in a special fast track group in Scotland lamenting the loss of opportunities. However, the difference is that here in Japan, it is not a fast track, it is a river and either you get in or you watch everyone move by.
lj at 9:14
Of course I watch a lot of anime about school life and kids, but they don’t focus on the academics.Rarely mentioning the cram schools, for instance.
But I have been astonished and frankly disbelieving about what is mentioned in passing about the quantity and quality of what a Japanese HS student is expected to learn. Rivers in Belgium, the cities on those rivers, and the industries in the cities. All the generals under Oda Nobunaga, and what they did in specific battles.
And I have read and think that Japanese JHS and HS are also entirely about socialization, you won’t need all the knowledge you gain and forget.
It’s all about learning how to work yourself to exhaustion for incomprehensible reasons without questioning authority at all.
However, the difference is that here in Japan, it is not a fast track, it is a river and either you get in or you watch everyone move by.
I keep hearing that, and I think I maybe am missing something, that maybe those who don’t make it into Todai or Waseda (etc, 1st and 2nd tier), which are the vast majority, aren’t living lives of horror, deprivation, and hopeless misery. Even the ones who fail HS.
I exaggerate, I kid, only a little friendly snark, but I am more interested in the mechanics, cable installers, truckers, Fast Food workers and how they manage and if they have enjoyable lives.
I have thought that this is also a process of socialization, much more extensive than the “some get to Ivy League” thing. In the process of going thru Exam Hell or failing or choosing not to a certain amount of envy and resented is mitigated. Todai grads have money and power but no life? kinda thing. Hierarchies are established but they are more gentle and benevolent, maybe. Or maybe not.
Without at all accepting or admiring I am open to the Japanese education system. People seem to survive and turn out okay.
lj at 9:14
Of course I watch a lot of anime about school life and kids, but they don’t focus on the academics.Rarely mentioning the cram schools, for instance.
But I have been astonished and frankly disbelieving about what is mentioned in passing about the quantity and quality of what a Japanese HS student is expected to learn. Rivers in Belgium, the cities on those rivers, and the industries in the cities. All the generals under Oda Nobunaga, and what they did in specific battles.
And I have read and think that Japanese JHS and HS are also entirely about socialization, you won’t need all the knowledge you gain and forget.
It’s all about learning how to work yourself to exhaustion for incomprehensible reasons without questioning authority at all.
However, the difference is that here in Japan, it is not a fast track, it is a river and either you get in or you watch everyone move by.
I keep hearing that, and I think I maybe am missing something, that maybe those who don’t make it into Todai or Waseda (etc, 1st and 2nd tier), which are the vast majority, aren’t living lives of horror, deprivation, and hopeless misery. Even the ones who fail HS.
I exaggerate, I kid, only a little friendly snark, but I am more interested in the mechanics, cable installers, truckers, Fast Food workers and how they manage and if they have enjoyable lives.
I have thought that this is also a process of socialization, much more extensive than the “some get to Ivy League” thing. In the process of going thru Exam Hell or failing or choosing not to a certain amount of envy and resented is mitigated. Todai grads have money and power but no life? kinda thing. Hierarchies are established but they are more gentle and benevolent, maybe. Or maybe not.
Without at all accepting or admiring I am open to the Japanese education system. People seem to survive and turn out okay.
I will restrain my inner mcmanus from pooping on that utopian image.
See the above at 6:51. Part of being a misanthrope and pessimist and anti-utopian is also seeing and accepting that a lot of life is pain and sorrow and disappointment and yet people manage with dignity.
I don’t envy the rich powerful and popular because I know they have their debilitating problems, and the homeless and hopeless have a few compensatory moments.
But yeah, we can make it a little better, I suppose. Probably.
I will restrain my inner mcmanus from pooping on that utopian image.
See the above at 6:51. Part of being a misanthrope and pessimist and anti-utopian is also seeing and accepting that a lot of life is pain and sorrow and disappointment and yet people manage with dignity.
I don’t envy the rich powerful and popular because I know they have their debilitating problems, and the homeless and hopeless have a few compensatory moments.
But yeah, we can make it a little better, I suppose. Probably.
Yes, the amount of memorization for a top-tier or even a top tier local school is astonishing. For lower level schools however, it’s getting to a point where only a pulse is necessary. But no matter what school they are aiming at, HS and JHS aim to fill the student’s schedule with things to do, even though they might be done more simply individually. So yes, there is this ‘trust authority’ vibe going on.
The ones who don’t make it into Todai or Waseda are just as subject to the pressures of socialization. In fact, probably more so because they feel they have a lot less control over their destiny.
I wasn’t going to write about this, it is both a bit far afield and personal, but I think it plugs into this. My brother, 3 years younger than me, just got laid off. Has a month of paid vacation and then will get a month of salary. Fortunately, he’s paid off his house and just has a car note to deal with.
Being 3 years 6 months younger than me, I was the book smart one and he was being compared to a 6 month older me by everyone, so he went for sport, though if the situation has been reversed, he probably would have kicked my ass in academics, something I’ve only realized late in life. He also has an emotional intelligence that astonishes me. He’s had three jobs where he has started out as an hourly worker at the bottom and has moved up to a salaried position. Three times. This last one, he was in charge of IT, helping sales reps with their computers. In fact, the factory he worked at closed down and they kept him on, working from home and flying him to the other factories once a month for a week. However, the company got bought out, and he got pink slipped.
He’ll land on his feet, he can probably be a manager of a franchise or something. But he’s got some extraordinary skills. But the key ingredient he has is that he doesn’t want too much. Sure, he’s happy to get some extra money, take a long vacation, maybe spend a few more days in his tree stand, but he’s not going to break his back to get it and he can do without if he has to.
That quality seems to be what a lot of Japanese seem to have. There are those who want more, but that is usually in the context of social acceptance.
A lot of my students are not finding jobs and are getting work that is contract rather than lifetime. One of the reasons Japanese aren’t having babies is because the way the labor force is structured, no one has the financial security to have kids.
However, people like the current White House resident seem to be a fortunately rarer breed here. I think that makes a big difference.
Yes, the amount of memorization for a top-tier or even a top tier local school is astonishing. For lower level schools however, it’s getting to a point where only a pulse is necessary. But no matter what school they are aiming at, HS and JHS aim to fill the student’s schedule with things to do, even though they might be done more simply individually. So yes, there is this ‘trust authority’ vibe going on.
The ones who don’t make it into Todai or Waseda are just as subject to the pressures of socialization. In fact, probably more so because they feel they have a lot less control over their destiny.
I wasn’t going to write about this, it is both a bit far afield and personal, but I think it plugs into this. My brother, 3 years younger than me, just got laid off. Has a month of paid vacation and then will get a month of salary. Fortunately, he’s paid off his house and just has a car note to deal with.
Being 3 years 6 months younger than me, I was the book smart one and he was being compared to a 6 month older me by everyone, so he went for sport, though if the situation has been reversed, he probably would have kicked my ass in academics, something I’ve only realized late in life. He also has an emotional intelligence that astonishes me. He’s had three jobs where he has started out as an hourly worker at the bottom and has moved up to a salaried position. Three times. This last one, he was in charge of IT, helping sales reps with their computers. In fact, the factory he worked at closed down and they kept him on, working from home and flying him to the other factories once a month for a week. However, the company got bought out, and he got pink slipped.
He’ll land on his feet, he can probably be a manager of a franchise or something. But he’s got some extraordinary skills. But the key ingredient he has is that he doesn’t want too much. Sure, he’s happy to get some extra money, take a long vacation, maybe spend a few more days in his tree stand, but he’s not going to break his back to get it and he can do without if he has to.
That quality seems to be what a lot of Japanese seem to have. There are those who want more, but that is usually in the context of social acceptance.
A lot of my students are not finding jobs and are getting work that is contract rather than lifetime. One of the reasons Japanese aren’t having babies is because the way the labor force is structured, no one has the financial security to have kids.
However, people like the current White House resident seem to be a fortunately rarer breed here. I think that makes a big difference.
But no matter what school they are aiming at, HS and JHS aim to fill the student’s schedule with things to do, even though they might be done more simply individually.
An echo of what a New England private high school English teacher told me about American schools fifteen years ago.
As background — My kids were officially homeschooled, though they both played high school sports on local school teams and were involved in the community – sports, tutoring, volunteering. Plus, my son was in school about half-time from the time he was ten years old (at his and our choice and discretion).
When my daughter was high school age she thought about going to school but didn’t want to go to the local high school. I had a couple of long talks with the English teacher at a private boarding school near here, which also took (takes) day students from the local area. This teacher, I’ll call him Steve, had been a headmaster at another such school and had a lifetime of experience teaching and headmastering. (Disclaimer: I know almost nothing about the New England private boarding schools except the names of a lot of them….)
What Steve told me was this: Whether you looked at the conventional schools or the funky ones (e.g. Putney IIRC), which could seem so very different from each other, they all had one thing in common. They were determined to keep the kids busy with classes, activities, and homework from morning to night. With a nod also toward public high schools, his summary of high school education in the US was something that has stayed with me ever since:
“No one trusts kids to sit under a tree and read.”
But no matter what school they are aiming at, HS and JHS aim to fill the student’s schedule with things to do, even though they might be done more simply individually.
An echo of what a New England private high school English teacher told me about American schools fifteen years ago.
As background — My kids were officially homeschooled, though they both played high school sports on local school teams and were involved in the community – sports, tutoring, volunteering. Plus, my son was in school about half-time from the time he was ten years old (at his and our choice and discretion).
When my daughter was high school age she thought about going to school but didn’t want to go to the local high school. I had a couple of long talks with the English teacher at a private boarding school near here, which also took (takes) day students from the local area. This teacher, I’ll call him Steve, had been a headmaster at another such school and had a lifetime of experience teaching and headmastering. (Disclaimer: I know almost nothing about the New England private boarding schools except the names of a lot of them….)
What Steve told me was this: Whether you looked at the conventional schools or the funky ones (e.g. Putney IIRC), which could seem so very different from each other, they all had one thing in common. They were determined to keep the kids busy with classes, activities, and homework from morning to night. With a nod also toward public high schools, his summary of high school education in the US was something that has stayed with me ever since:
“No one trusts kids to sit under a tree and read.”
Some Commie propaganda. This is relevant to the question of what education is for. For business, according to the link, it is for keeping the number of skilled people high and wages low.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/malcolmharris/the-wages-are-too-damn-low?utm_term=.kmWE2XxLZ6#.tdJbdKkGpg
Some Commie propaganda. This is relevant to the question of what education is for. For business, according to the link, it is for keeping the number of skilled people high and wages low.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/malcolmharris/the-wages-are-too-damn-low?utm_term=.kmWE2XxLZ6#.tdJbdKkGpg
“No one trusts kids to sit under a tree and read.”
when i was a junior/senior in high school, i received a lot of college brochures in the mail. tens, dozens, hundreds of them. so, i sorted into two piles: those with a picture of a kid reading under a tree on the front cover, and those without.
“No one trusts kids to sit under a tree and read.”
when i was a junior/senior in high school, i received a lot of college brochures in the mail. tens, dozens, hundreds of them. so, i sorted into two piles: those with a picture of a kid reading under a tree on the front cover, and those without.
cleek —
1. If you’re willing to answer, how old are you?
2. Also if you’re willing to answer, which kind did you go to?
🙂
cleek —
1. If you’re willing to answer, how old are you?
2. Also if you’re willing to answer, which kind did you go to?
🙂
Snarki: Pay teachers the same as congressmen.
Right on! Until they can both be replaced by “robots”, of course.
Would “robots” make decent congressmen? It depends on what humans think congressmen are supposed to do. I suspect “robots” could be programmed to accurately reflect the preferences and prejudices of their constituents to three significant digits, if that’s what We The People want.
Would “robots” make decent teachers? Again, it depends. But I think it’s already happening in certain respects, although I think “robots” are still merely “instructors” rather than “teachers”.
–TP
Snarki: Pay teachers the same as congressmen.
Right on! Until they can both be replaced by “robots”, of course.
Would “robots” make decent congressmen? It depends on what humans think congressmen are supposed to do. I suspect “robots” could be programmed to accurately reflect the preferences and prejudices of their constituents to three significant digits, if that’s what We The People want.
Would “robots” make decent teachers? Again, it depends. But I think it’s already happening in certain respects, although I think “robots” are still merely “instructors” rather than “teachers”.
–TP
1. 47. so this was 1987/88
2. i discounted all of the colleges without kids under trees. so, i went to an under-tree school. never saw anyone reading under a tree. can’t even remember seeing a suitable tree.
OT:
when should we expect the Niger-ghazi-gate hearing to begin?
1. 47. so this was 1987/88
2. i discounted all of the colleges without kids under trees. so, i went to an under-tree school. never saw anyone reading under a tree. can’t even remember seeing a suitable tree.
OT:
when should we expect the Niger-ghazi-gate hearing to begin?
“when should we expect the Niger-ghazi-gate hearing to begin?”
It’s scheduled to start on the 32nd of NEVER.
“when should we expect the Niger-ghazi-gate hearing to begin?”
It’s scheduled to start on the 32nd of NEVER.
Denise Cohen
Denise Cohen
I’m very interested in home schooling, and why people choose to do it. I know for many it’s that they’re religious loonies who don’t want their kids’ minds polluted by any reference to e.g. evolution, and for some it’s because their children have been bullied, or because their kids are so gifted they feel that mainstream school is unsuitable for them, but I’d be very interested to hear from any parents who made this choice (or children who had it made for them) if people don’t feel it breaches confidentiality etc.
I’m very interested in home schooling, and why people choose to do it. I know for many it’s that they’re religious loonies who don’t want their kids’ minds polluted by any reference to e.g. evolution, and for some it’s because their children have been bullied, or because their kids are so gifted they feel that mainstream school is unsuitable for them, but I’d be very interested to hear from any parents who made this choice (or children who had it made for them) if people don’t feel it breaches confidentiality etc.
GftNC, here’s a link to a discussion that happened at Crooked Timber several years ago that was one of the best I’ve ever been part of in relation to homeschooling. Lots of viewpoints, lots of skepticism, but an almost universally respectful debate. (Okay, maybe a bit of snark and impatience now and then but by and large it was a great conversation. )
There was one contributor to that thread who was homeschooling in London, so it wasn’t even totally US-centered.
A follow-up conversation at CT a couple of months later was more contentious, but IIRC there was still a lot in it that was of interest.
I have more mixed feelings/thoughts about homeschooling now than I did perhaps even as recently as five years ago. But I need to think about how much I want to say because it’s not entirely my story to tell. I will at least say that my fundamental point in the first thread I linked — that we should have more variety and less compulsoriness in relation to schooling — I still believe.
(Tedra Osell appeared at CT and disappeared without a trace not long afterwards. Life does sometimes interfere with the internet, but I have wondered ever since how she and her family are doing. She had blogged as/at “Bitch PhD” in earlier years and IIRC was well-known under that moniker.)
GftNC, here’s a link to a discussion that happened at Crooked Timber several years ago that was one of the best I’ve ever been part of in relation to homeschooling. Lots of viewpoints, lots of skepticism, but an almost universally respectful debate. (Okay, maybe a bit of snark and impatience now and then but by and large it was a great conversation. )
There was one contributor to that thread who was homeschooling in London, so it wasn’t even totally US-centered.
A follow-up conversation at CT a couple of months later was more contentious, but IIRC there was still a lot in it that was of interest.
I have more mixed feelings/thoughts about homeschooling now than I did perhaps even as recently as five years ago. But I need to think about how much I want to say because it’s not entirely my story to tell. I will at least say that my fundamental point in the first thread I linked — that we should have more variety and less compulsoriness in relation to schooling — I still believe.
(Tedra Osell appeared at CT and disappeared without a trace not long afterwards. Life does sometimes interfere with the internet, but I have wondered ever since how she and her family are doing. She had blogged as/at “Bitch PhD” in earlier years and IIRC was well-known under that moniker.)
Along with homeschooling, Unschooling is a small, but growing trend in the US.
Along with homeschooling, Unschooling is a small, but growing trend in the US.
Without reading the Wikipedia link…
Back when we were homeschooling, i.e. when I was paying more attention, “unschooling” was mostly talked about and thought of as a subset of homeschooling. The point of the label, at least for my purposes, was that homeschooling did not remotely mean reproducing school at home. For my purposes (which were about as opposite to those of the religious right wing of the homeschooling world as could be), if all I had been intending to do had been to reproduce school at home, I would have sent the kids to school.
So to be nitpicky, we were unschoolers, but with one of the kids taking two or three classes at the local middle school and high school each year starting when he was ten, and both the kids taking some college classes by the time they were 16 or so. (Maine and the colleges in Maine had, and probably still have, a program that subsidizes tuition for high school kids taking college classes.)
Without reading the Wikipedia link…
Back when we were homeschooling, i.e. when I was paying more attention, “unschooling” was mostly talked about and thought of as a subset of homeschooling. The point of the label, at least for my purposes, was that homeschooling did not remotely mean reproducing school at home. For my purposes (which were about as opposite to those of the religious right wing of the homeschooling world as could be), if all I had been intending to do had been to reproduce school at home, I would have sent the kids to school.
So to be nitpicky, we were unschoolers, but with one of the kids taking two or three classes at the local middle school and high school each year starting when he was ten, and both the kids taking some college classes by the time they were 16 or so. (Maine and the colleges in Maine had, and probably still have, a program that subsidizes tuition for high school kids taking college classes.)
should i ever have a kid, i’m going do to homeoschooling whereby i will sit him/her down, declare “1 + 1 = 2,” and then present the doctorate.
should i ever have a kid, i’m going do to homeoschooling whereby i will sit him/her down, declare “1 + 1 = 2,” and then present the doctorate.
cleek, yur doon it rong.
For homeoschooling, you go with “0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 = ∞”
Followed by rousing verses of “Aleph-1 bottles of beer on the wall”
cleek, yur doon it rong.
For homeoschooling, you go with “0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 = ∞”
Followed by rousing verses of “Aleph-1 bottles of beer on the wall”
Wow JanieM, rarely has a question been asked and then answered so comprehensively as in your first CT link (have not read the 2nd one yet). Many thanks.
Wow JanieM, rarely has a question been asked and then answered so comprehensively as in your first CT link (have not read the 2nd one yet). Many thanks.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/21/trump-executive-order-lets-air-force-recall-up-to-1000-retired-pilots.html
Let the fucking killing begin by anti-American vermin murderous republican filth.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/21/trump-executive-order-lets-air-force-recall-up-to-1000-retired-pilots.html
Let the fucking killing begin by anti-American vermin murderous republican filth.
GftNC — that was an epic thread, wasn’t it? I think it represents the best of what bloggy conversations can be.
Homeschooling is a particularly apt trigger, because you can hardly talk about it without talking about all kinds of other interesting things as well.
GftNC — that was an epic thread, wasn’t it? I think it represents the best of what bloggy conversations can be.
Homeschooling is a particularly apt trigger, because you can hardly talk about it without talking about all kinds of other interesting things as well.
how long till we get a special M1B visa that allows us to import key military personnel from other countries…
how long till we get a special M1B visa that allows us to import key military personnel from other countries…
wj: Why not just rent driverless cars on a per-trip basis, and pay the owners like they do now? Same business model, just a different kind of vehicle being sent.
The author of WTF?: What’s the Future and Why It’s Up to Us makes the same point in this interview(audio).
If ridesharing companies leased/own vehicles, they would be in the same bind that taxicabs companies find themselves in. If they have only enough vehicles to handle average demand, they can’t handle peak demand. If they have enough vehicles for peak demand, they’re going to have a lot of vehicles sitting around idle most of the time.
He suggested that the ridesharing companies could use an Airbnb like model wherein owners would rent vehicles instead of space.
wj: Why not just rent driverless cars on a per-trip basis, and pay the owners like they do now? Same business model, just a different kind of vehicle being sent.
The author of WTF?: What’s the Future and Why It’s Up to Us makes the same point in this interview(audio).
If ridesharing companies leased/own vehicles, they would be in the same bind that taxicabs companies find themselves in. If they have only enough vehicles to handle average demand, they can’t handle peak demand. If they have enough vehicles for peak demand, they’re going to have a lot of vehicles sitting around idle most of the time.
He suggested that the ridesharing companies could use an Airbnb like model wherein owners would rent vehicles instead of space.
JanieM: yes, have just read the 2nd thread, and that was fascinating too. Thanks again.
JanieM: yes, have just read the 2nd thread, and that was fascinating too. Thanks again.
CharlesWT: … ridesharing companies …
Not picking on Charles, but I just have to repeat: it annoys me that Uber, Lyft, et al have latched on to “sharing” as part of their “brand”. AFAICT, “ride brokering companies” would be the most generous yet still honest way to describe their business model. Less cuddly, to be sure, as their marketers and lobbyists no doubt knew from the get-go.
–TP
CharlesWT: … ridesharing companies …
Not picking on Charles, but I just have to repeat: it annoys me that Uber, Lyft, et al have latched on to “sharing” as part of their “brand”. AFAICT, “ride brokering companies” would be the most generous yet still honest way to describe their business model. Less cuddly, to be sure, as their marketers and lobbyists no doubt knew from the get-go.
–TP
Merely carrying out the orders of the NRA’s Dana Loesch:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/montana-gop-official-says-she-would-have-shot-journalist-gianforte-assaulted
Republicans can’t wait to kill us.
I hope the reporter has the cojones to stick a microphone in that fascist cunt’s face and dare her to shoot him.
I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that we may need a military coup to do away with rump and company.
Scratch that. After reading John Kelly’s remarks, I would ask him to shut his fucking mouth and do the job I’m paying him to do, not feel sorry for American citizens who choose not to take asshole Milton Friedman up on yet another of his shitty ideas and volunteer for the armed forces, nor to exclude those from the discussion who don’t have personal experience with combat and its ravages.
You and your son up signed to protect and serve, and thank you, but telling me how much superior you are because of your fucking choice is not in your job description.
I’m civilian, you are military. In this country, I tell YOU what to do, asshole.
All of us get to question you. That’s the job the Constitution gave US, dumbass, despite republicans’ obsession with poorly worded one amendment that they THINK lets them shoot anyone they fucking please.
So no military coup. They aren’t on our side.
The Republican Party seeks to militarize every aspect of American life, from arming the population with weapons of war to monopolizing our attention to unending war at every fucking sporting event and erasing civilian control of the military. They also want to destroy the separation church and State.
Fuck off.
Merely carrying out the orders of the NRA’s Dana Loesch:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/montana-gop-official-says-she-would-have-shot-journalist-gianforte-assaulted
Republicans can’t wait to kill us.
I hope the reporter has the cojones to stick a microphone in that fascist cunt’s face and dare her to shoot him.
I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that we may need a military coup to do away with rump and company.
Scratch that. After reading John Kelly’s remarks, I would ask him to shut his fucking mouth and do the job I’m paying him to do, not feel sorry for American citizens who choose not to take asshole Milton Friedman up on yet another of his shitty ideas and volunteer for the armed forces, nor to exclude those from the discussion who don’t have personal experience with combat and its ravages.
You and your son up signed to protect and serve, and thank you, but telling me how much superior you are because of your fucking choice is not in your job description.
I’m civilian, you are military. In this country, I tell YOU what to do, asshole.
All of us get to question you. That’s the job the Constitution gave US, dumbass, despite republicans’ obsession with poorly worded one amendment that they THINK lets them shoot anyone they fucking please.
So no military coup. They aren’t on our side.
The Republican Party seeks to militarize every aspect of American life, from arming the population with weapons of war to monopolizing our attention to unending war at every fucking sporting event and erasing civilian control of the military. They also want to destroy the separation church and State.
Fuck off.
A robot link for bob mcmanus
https://www.wired.com/2017/10/hiroshi-ishiguro-when-robots-act-just-like-humans/
A robot link for bob mcmanus
https://www.wired.com/2017/10/hiroshi-ishiguro-when-robots-act-just-like-humans/
that we should have more variety and less compulsoriness in relation to schooling — I still believe….
Yes, the fundamental assumptions surrounding education (certainly in the UK) are rarely questioned – though there is plenty of messing around with second order issues.
Much of it comes down to limited resources, I think.
The other end of the scale from homeschooling (which must require enormous parental commitment) is the significant number of kids whose primary school teachers provide the closest thing to genuine parenting they will get.
that we should have more variety and less compulsoriness in relation to schooling — I still believe….
Yes, the fundamental assumptions surrounding education (certainly in the UK) are rarely questioned – though there is plenty of messing around with second order issues.
Much of it comes down to limited resources, I think.
The other end of the scale from homeschooling (which must require enormous parental commitment) is the significant number of kids whose primary school teachers provide the closest thing to genuine parenting they will get.
lj 434
More interested in humans acting like robots. After we discard the illusion of free will, and leave aside genetic programming, then we can look at how human-robots are programmed, which is not self-programming, but social network group programming with adjustments emerging from environmental factors.
“Someday we may crack the problem of creating artificial general intelligence—a machine brain that can intuitively perform any human intellectual task—but why would we choose to interact with it?”
Why would it choose to interact with us, or interact in a way we like? I don’t. Why does anybody, really?
Discarding illusions like free will, self-programming, localized singular intelligence* would go a long way to creating better machines.
*And probably empathy, not because it isn’t good, but because it is likely not what we think and doesn’t work the way we think it does.
lj 434
More interested in humans acting like robots. After we discard the illusion of free will, and leave aside genetic programming, then we can look at how human-robots are programmed, which is not self-programming, but social network group programming with adjustments emerging from environmental factors.
“Someday we may crack the problem of creating artificial general intelligence—a machine brain that can intuitively perform any human intellectual task—but why would we choose to interact with it?”
Why would it choose to interact with us, or interact in a way we like? I don’t. Why does anybody, really?
Discarding illusions like free will, self-programming, localized singular intelligence* would go a long way to creating better machines.
*And probably empathy, not because it isn’t good, but because it is likely not what we think and doesn’t work the way we think it does.
Okay, for example, when Japanese humans go to the cat cafes, is the point to make the cats change, or adjust human behavior so as to make it enjoyable and comfortable for the cats? Why should our interactions with robots and computers be different?
Okay, for example, when Japanese humans go to the cat cafes, is the point to make the cats change, or adjust human behavior so as to make it enjoyable and comfortable for the cats? Why should our interactions with robots and computers be different?
bob mcmanus, you did see how Ishiguro is changing himself so he doesn’t have to change his robot doppleganger?
About cat cafes, I have not a clue. A good friend of mine does volunteer yoga classes at a local cat cafe, but the cat cafe is one that takes in strays or pets that can no longer be cared for and tries to find homes for them and all the donations she gets go to help pay for the costs.
The latest craze in Tokyo, owl cafes. I don’t think people want to owls to change, but I’m not sure if people are going there because they feel like they are making the owls more comfortable.
bob mcmanus, you did see how Ishiguro is changing himself so he doesn’t have to change his robot doppleganger?
About cat cafes, I have not a clue. A good friend of mine does volunteer yoga classes at a local cat cafe, but the cat cafe is one that takes in strays or pets that can no longer be cared for and tries to find homes for them and all the donations she gets go to help pay for the costs.
The latest craze in Tokyo, owl cafes. I don’t think people want to owls to change, but I’m not sure if people are going there because they feel like they are making the owls more comfortable.
William W. Wolf Jr.
William W. Wolf Jr.
“I don’t think people want to owls to change.”
https://www.google.com/search?q=new+yorker+cartoon+of+owls+through+time+in+a+museum&tbm=isch&source=iu&pf=m&ictx=1&fir=fXLRlF0mJBbU1M%253A%252CxBrWADeyFe0xRM%252C_&usg=__A88BVLTZbJKSp3_siN2Czz1ua3o%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiqhJH5yYTXAhUoyoMKHSc4CnwQ9QEINDAF#imgrc=fXLRlF0mJBbU1M:
But more on point with the “get yer robots”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GaPgYhQ8Rs
McManus: “And probably empathy, not because it isn’t good, but because it is likely not what we think and doesn’t work the way we think it does.”
When IBM’s Watson, or an organic owl, beat us in an empathy competition, what then? The two of them even now at their current state of development already out-empathsize rump and his entire list of sociopathic appointments, so maybe we’re already there.
Neither an algorithm, nor an owl, despite the latter’s talons, opened fire in Vegas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzTX8SVJtis
What say you, pollo de muerto?
“I don’t think people want to owls to change.”
https://www.google.com/search?q=new+yorker+cartoon+of+owls+through+time+in+a+museum&tbm=isch&source=iu&pf=m&ictx=1&fir=fXLRlF0mJBbU1M%253A%252CxBrWADeyFe0xRM%252C_&usg=__A88BVLTZbJKSp3_siN2Czz1ua3o%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiqhJH5yYTXAhUoyoMKHSc4CnwQ9QEINDAF#imgrc=fXLRlF0mJBbU1M:
But more on point with the “get yer robots”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GaPgYhQ8Rs
McManus: “And probably empathy, not because it isn’t good, but because it is likely not what we think and doesn’t work the way we think it does.”
When IBM’s Watson, or an organic owl, beat us in an empathy competition, what then? The two of them even now at their current state of development already out-empathsize rump and his entire list of sociopathic appointments, so maybe we’re already there.
Neither an algorithm, nor an owl, despite the latter’s talons, opened fire in Vegas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzTX8SVJtis
What say you, pollo de muerto?
but I’m not sure if people are going there because they feel like they are making the owls more comfortable.
No, no, I’m not saying that is why they go to cat cafes…you go to cat cafes to make cats purr and play and people get pleasure from that.
As far as comfortable owls, I’ll bet big money that aggression toward owls and loud noises are prohibited, and I am guessing the point of visiting an owl cafe is to enact a level of outer and inner stillness that keeps the owls relaxed.
but I’m not sure if people are going there because they feel like they are making the owls more comfortable.
No, no, I’m not saying that is why they go to cat cafes…you go to cat cafes to make cats purr and play and people get pleasure from that.
As far as comfortable owls, I’ll bet big money that aggression toward owls and loud noises are prohibited, and I am guessing the point of visiting an owl cafe is to enact a level of outer and inner stillness that keeps the owls relaxed.
Neither an owl nor an algorithm.
A walking, talking psychopath with applauding fellow “christian” psychopathic fans who are getting ready to kill:
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/moralistic-therapeutic-hannityism/
Neither an owl nor an algorithm.
A walking, talking psychopath with applauding fellow “christian” psychopathic fans who are getting ready to kill:
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/moralistic-therapeutic-hannityism/
At the point where robots are built with the equivalent of “mirror neurons” that allow empathy, that will be a great advance.
Not least, because then the technology can be retrofitted to sociopath humans, in “Forced Empathy Machine Augmentation” camps.
At the point where robots are built with the equivalent of “mirror neurons” that allow empathy, that will be a great advance.
Not least, because then the technology can be retrofitted to sociopath humans, in “Forced Empathy Machine Augmentation” camps.
Snarki, what you are talking about is cyborgs. Where the machine augmentation isn’t mechanical strength or higher brain power — just improved ability on the emotional front.
Snarki, what you are talking about is cyborgs. Where the machine augmentation isn’t mechanical strength or higher brain power — just improved ability on the emotional front.
— just improved ability on the emotional front.
Or, depending on the powers that be, the suppression thereof.
— just improved ability on the emotional front.
Or, depending on the powers that be, the suppression thereof.
wj, could be, but I’m not sure you’d have to go full cyborg.
Never go full cyborg.
wj, could be, but I’m not sure you’d have to go full cyborg.
Never go full cyborg.
Going cyborg will necessarily be incremental. Long before we get anywhere near “full cyborg” (if we ever do) we will be looking at a lot of little enhancements.
If you think about it, we are actually already on the road. What, after all, is a pacemaker but a machine component which has been surgically added to the body to make it function better? And that is merely the first example which leaps to mind.
Going cyborg will necessarily be incremental. Long before we get anywhere near “full cyborg” (if we ever do) we will be looking at a lot of little enhancements.
If you think about it, we are actually already on the road. What, after all, is a pacemaker but a machine component which has been surgically added to the body to make it function better? And that is merely the first example which leaps to mind.
About owl cafes, sure, that’s possible, but it’s just like playing ‘smooth jazz’, or putting up posters of calm quiet places. Anything social will be structured in a way that supports the desired social interaction. If it’s not, someone has probably screwed up.
I say smooth jazz cause I was just at a friend’s office and when I entered the room, I said ‘wow, Watermelon Man, haven’t heard that in a while” and asked him if he had the album and he said no, it was off a collection of ‘smooth jazz hits’. I was amazed.
About owl cafes, sure, that’s possible, but it’s just like playing ‘smooth jazz’, or putting up posters of calm quiet places. Anything social will be structured in a way that supports the desired social interaction. If it’s not, someone has probably screwed up.
I say smooth jazz cause I was just at a friend’s office and when I entered the room, I said ‘wow, Watermelon Man, haven’t heard that in a while” and asked him if he had the album and he said no, it was off a collection of ‘smooth jazz hits’. I was amazed.
Google provides, a few minutes late
https://www.ft.com/content/08d1543e-3211-11e5-91ac-a5e17d9b4cff
Google provides, a few minutes late
https://www.ft.com/content/08d1543e-3211-11e5-91ac-a5e17d9b4cff
What, after all, is a pacemaker but a machine component which has been surgically added to the body to make it function better?
Technolgy is coming closer to the point where some people will start to replace healthy body parts.
What, after all, is a pacemaker but a machine component which has been surgically added to the body to make it function better?
Technolgy is coming closer to the point where some people will start to replace healthy body parts.
An example:
“Imagine being able to see three times better than 20/20 vision without wearing glasses or contacts — even at age 100 or more — with the help of bionic lenses implanted in your eyes.”
Ocumetics Bionic Lens could give you vision 3x better than 20/20
An example:
“Imagine being able to see three times better than 20/20 vision without wearing glasses or contacts — even at age 100 or more — with the help of bionic lenses implanted in your eyes.”
Ocumetics Bionic Lens could give you vision 3x better than 20/20
perhaps related
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/human_nature/2005/04/the_beam_in_your_eye.html
perhaps related
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/human_nature/2005/04/the_beam_in_your_eye.html
“Imagine being able to see three times better than 20/20 vision without wearing glasses or contacts — even at age 100 or more — with the help of bionic lenses implanted in your eyes.”
I’m going to be sorely disappointed at age 100 if I finally have the eye part of eye/hand coordination to be able to hit the 90 mph fastball, but the hand part will be completely debilitated.
Maybe I could have Ted Williams’ defrosted head sutured on to my neck too.
“Imagine being able to see three times better than 20/20 vision without wearing glasses or contacts — even at age 100 or more — with the help of bionic lenses implanted in your eyes.”
I’m going to be sorely disappointed at age 100 if I finally have the eye part of eye/hand coordination to be able to hit the 90 mph fastball, but the hand part will be completely debilitated.
Maybe I could have Ted Williams’ defrosted head sutured on to my neck too.
Maybe I could have Ted Williams’ defrosted head sutured on to my neck too.
I seriously doubt that would put you ahead of the game…
Maybe I could have Ted Williams’ defrosted head sutured on to my neck too.
I seriously doubt that would put you ahead of the game…
Dana Leann Gardner
Dana Leann Gardner
Charles, the Ocumetics Lens article is really cool. Thanks for that.
Charles, the Ocumetics Lens article is really cool. Thanks for that.
…the Ocumetics Lens article…
A more recent article:
The early adopters will have to pay about $3200 per lens, excluding the cost of the surgery. The company has already started compiling a list of clinics and surgeons, via referrals, that it will work with.
A Bionic Lens Undergoing Clinical Trials Could Give You Superhuman Abilities In Two Years
…the Ocumetics Lens article…
A more recent article:
The early adopters will have to pay about $3200 per lens, excluding the cost of the surgery. The company has already started compiling a list of clinics and surgeons, via referrals, that it will work with.
A Bionic Lens Undergoing Clinical Trials Could Give You Superhuman Abilities In Two Years
Ishiguro believes that since we’re hardwired to interact with and place our faith in humans, the more humanlike we can make a robot appear, the more open we’ll be to sharing our lives with it
i think his strategy holds the seed of its own failure.
first, i’m not sure we’re hardwired to place our faith in humans. we will place our faith in humans that we know, and with whom we share a history, and with whom we share a million social cues and norms that tell us we have common ground, or at least the basis for establishing common ground.
many if not most of these are not part of our conscious awareness. they include not only facial expressions, tone of voice, body language, but probably chemical and other cues that we are not even aware that we’re aware of.
yes, ishiguro is trying to discover and understand those. but i have to ask why.
why make machines emulate what humans do by nature? in order to gain our trust? we already trust machines.
elevators, automobiles, airplanes, pacemakers, subways, what have you. we entrust non-anthropomorphic machines with our lives. every day.
in an interview, the late jazz keyboardist joe zawinul commented that he never tried to make his synthesizers sound like natural instruments.
why do that?, he asked. those instruments already exist. he wanted to use his synths to create instrumental voices that weren’t already available.
to me, i think people will trust a machine that plainly presents itself as a machine much more than a machine that presents itself as a fake human.
let machines present themselves plainly as machines, and let people encounter and engage with them as such. i think it will be less confusing, and create greater confidence, than having them try to pass as humans.
Ishiguro believes that since we’re hardwired to interact with and place our faith in humans, the more humanlike we can make a robot appear, the more open we’ll be to sharing our lives with it
i think his strategy holds the seed of its own failure.
first, i’m not sure we’re hardwired to place our faith in humans. we will place our faith in humans that we know, and with whom we share a history, and with whom we share a million social cues and norms that tell us we have common ground, or at least the basis for establishing common ground.
many if not most of these are not part of our conscious awareness. they include not only facial expressions, tone of voice, body language, but probably chemical and other cues that we are not even aware that we’re aware of.
yes, ishiguro is trying to discover and understand those. but i have to ask why.
why make machines emulate what humans do by nature? in order to gain our trust? we already trust machines.
elevators, automobiles, airplanes, pacemakers, subways, what have you. we entrust non-anthropomorphic machines with our lives. every day.
in an interview, the late jazz keyboardist joe zawinul commented that he never tried to make his synthesizers sound like natural instruments.
why do that?, he asked. those instruments already exist. he wanted to use his synths to create instrumental voices that weren’t already available.
to me, i think people will trust a machine that plainly presents itself as a machine much more than a machine that presents itself as a fake human.
let machines present themselves plainly as machines, and let people encounter and engage with them as such. i think it will be less confusing, and create greater confidence, than having them try to pass as humans.
If I’m reading this right, it will address astigmatism as well as near (or far) sightedness. Granted, there is a certain whimsical amusement in seeing one very fuzzy full moon, but a half dozen, somewhat fuzzy crescent moons. (Only imagine the cosmology that would have developed if everyone had eyes like mine,) But still, I’ll be keeping an eye on this.
If I’m reading this right, it will address astigmatism as well as near (or far) sightedness. Granted, there is a certain whimsical amusement in seeing one very fuzzy full moon, but a half dozen, somewhat fuzzy crescent moons. (Only imagine the cosmology that would have developed if everyone had eyes like mine,) But still, I’ll be keeping an eye on this.
let machines present themselves plainly as machines, and let people encounter and engage with them as such. i think it will be less confusing, and create greater confidence, than having them try to pass as humans.
Quite naturally, the immediate question people would ask would be: Why is this thing trying to con me?
let machines present themselves plainly as machines, and let people encounter and engage with them as such. i think it will be less confusing, and create greater confidence, than having them try to pass as humans.
Quite naturally, the immediate question people would ask would be: Why is this thing trying to con me?
http://miami.cbslocal.com/2017/10/20/frederica-wilson-threats-trump-call/
About what you would expect from fascist, murderous, republican rump supporters.
What would you expect? rump raised them:
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2017/10/22/open-thread-bad-parenting-tragicomic-results/
http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/miami-dj-says-he-watched-donald-trump-brutally-slap-his-son-in-college-8900500
Thus the sociopathic cruelty toward anyone who dares criticize that crime family and their dupes and fucking apologists, Obamacare recipients, the Dreamers, Puerto Ricans.
Deplorable stinking filth.
http://miami.cbslocal.com/2017/10/20/frederica-wilson-threats-trump-call/
About what you would expect from fascist, murderous, republican rump supporters.
What would you expect? rump raised them:
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2017/10/22/open-thread-bad-parenting-tragicomic-results/
http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/miami-dj-says-he-watched-donald-trump-brutally-slap-his-son-in-college-8900500
Thus the sociopathic cruelty toward anyone who dares criticize that crime family and their dupes and fucking apologists, Obamacare recipients, the Dreamers, Puerto Ricans.
Deplorable stinking filth.
Aside from sexbots, if there’s a market for intelligent, humanoid robots, it’s unlikely most of them will be autonomous. They’ll be a part of the internet of things, connected to and dependent on the internet like the rest of us.
Aside from sexbots, if there’s a market for intelligent, humanoid robots, it’s unlikely most of them will be autonomous. They’ll be a part of the internet of things, connected to and dependent on the internet like the rest of us.
Will conservatives demand that a plurality of humanoid robots be programmed to be assholes as well?
https://washingtonmonthly.com/2017/10/20/could-gorsuch-drive-a-wedge-between-conservatives-on-the-court/
Will conservatives demand that a plurality of humanoid robots be programmed to be assholes as well?
https://washingtonmonthly.com/2017/10/20/could-gorsuch-drive-a-wedge-between-conservatives-on-the-court/
wj: Quite naturally, the immediate question people would ask would be: Why is this thing trying to con me?
I doubt it. People let themselves be conned 24/7 by ads, marketing, political manipulations, false news…why would they all of a sudden become discriminating when it comes to robots?
wj: Quite naturally, the immediate question people would ask would be: Why is this thing trying to con me?
I doubt it. People let themselves be conned 24/7 by ads, marketing, political manipulations, false news…why would they all of a sudden become discriminating when it comes to robots?
Imagine being able to see three times better than 20/20 vision without wearing glasses or contacts…
MLB won’t let you take steroids or speed… but has no problem with having your lenses laser-sculpted to give you 20/10 vision. Ditto the PGA — read stuff from Tiger Woods about how much Lasik improved his game.
I’m a sport fencer. If I decided that I wanted to compete for a 70+ vet US or world title in a few years — and I’m only six years away from qualifying — in addition to diet, training, and new coaches, I’d be having specific Lasik work done now.
Imagine being able to see three times better than 20/20 vision without wearing glasses or contacts…
MLB won’t let you take steroids or speed… but has no problem with having your lenses laser-sculpted to give you 20/10 vision. Ditto the PGA — read stuff from Tiger Woods about how much Lasik improved his game.
I’m a sport fencer. If I decided that I wanted to compete for a 70+ vet US or world title in a few years — and I’m only six years away from qualifying — in addition to diet, training, and new coaches, I’d be having specific Lasik work done now.
Technolgy is coming closer to the point where some people will start to replace healthy body parts.
I expect to live long enough to see NFL players at various positions take a year off to have a total knee replacement after there’s enough damage. What’s it worth to an o-lineman to have a beat-up knee replaced with one designed to carry around 325 pounds?
Technolgy is coming closer to the point where some people will start to replace healthy body parts.
I expect to live long enough to see NFL players at various positions take a year off to have a total knee replacement after there’s enough damage. What’s it worth to an o-lineman to have a beat-up knee replaced with one designed to carry around 325 pounds?
russell, you may want to take a look at Scott McCloud’s book Understanding Comics. I can’t find the page to share with you, but this search approaches the point
https://www.google.co.jp/search?biw=1227&bih=627&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=scott+mccloud+face+electric+plug&oq=scott+mccloud+face+electric+plug&gs_l=psy-ab.3…15672.15672.0.15821.1.1.0.0.0.0.102.102.0j1.1.0….0…1.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0….0.B2k00UkbvqE
Basically, the riff is that we (as humans) are incredibly egocentric and we see ourselves in everything. Taking that a bit further, I’d suggest that when we get machines to the point that they cross over the uncanny valley, we will think they are better than real humans because we can put into them what we want rather than having to deal with the problem that what they think is not what we are thinking.
For me, the most interesting part of the article about ishiguro is the robot that is being trialled in Denmark for the elderly. Slightly horrifying, that these elderly with Alzheimer’s, dementia, and catatonia can be reached by such an obvious imitation, but if it were my dad, to be able to provide the simulation of reality would have been something I would have eagerly wanted and pursued.
Writing this brings up another memory, when I was 7 or 8, we went to Hawai’i to visit family, specifically my grandmother for her 80th birthday. I was at the age where I was way too cool to think about any of this, but my brother, 3 years younger than me, would sit with my grandma and have conversations with her, striking because my grandmother’s English consisted of 2 phrases, good boy and eat, eat. I remember distinctly my grandmother speaking to him in something totally incomprehensible (but I now realize was her pidgin Japanese) and my brother answering in English and them laughing and having a great time.
I know I or someone else has posted this before, but this is an elderly man who comes alive when he hears music from his youth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyZQf0p73QM
That we are happy to let technology (in this case, replaying music) awaken someone, I’m not sure where we draw a line.
russell, you may want to take a look at Scott McCloud’s book Understanding Comics. I can’t find the page to share with you, but this search approaches the point
https://www.google.co.jp/search?biw=1227&bih=627&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=scott+mccloud+face+electric+plug&oq=scott+mccloud+face+electric+plug&gs_l=psy-ab.3…15672.15672.0.15821.1.1.0.0.0.0.102.102.0j1.1.0….0…1.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0….0.B2k00UkbvqE
Basically, the riff is that we (as humans) are incredibly egocentric and we see ourselves in everything. Taking that a bit further, I’d suggest that when we get machines to the point that they cross over the uncanny valley, we will think they are better than real humans because we can put into them what we want rather than having to deal with the problem that what they think is not what we are thinking.
For me, the most interesting part of the article about ishiguro is the robot that is being trialled in Denmark for the elderly. Slightly horrifying, that these elderly with Alzheimer’s, dementia, and catatonia can be reached by such an obvious imitation, but if it were my dad, to be able to provide the simulation of reality would have been something I would have eagerly wanted and pursued.
Writing this brings up another memory, when I was 7 or 8, we went to Hawai’i to visit family, specifically my grandmother for her 80th birthday. I was at the age where I was way too cool to think about any of this, but my brother, 3 years younger than me, would sit with my grandma and have conversations with her, striking because my grandmother’s English consisted of 2 phrases, good boy and eat, eat. I remember distinctly my grandmother speaking to him in something totally incomprehensible (but I now realize was her pidgin Japanese) and my brother answering in English and them laughing and having a great time.
I know I or someone else has posted this before, but this is an elderly man who comes alive when he hears music from his youth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyZQf0p73QM
That we are happy to let technology (in this case, replaying music) awaken someone, I’m not sure where we draw a line.
why would they all of a sudden become discriminating when it comes to robots?
Because, despite all the evidence, people persist in believing that the actors in commercials are real people saying things that they really believe to be true. Whereas a machine wouldn’t get that benefit of the doubt.
why would they all of a sudden become discriminating when it comes to robots?
Because, despite all the evidence, people persist in believing that the actors in commercials are real people saying things that they really believe to be true. Whereas a machine wouldn’t get that benefit of the doubt.
wj, I just don’t buy it. It’s not “benefit of the doubt,” it’s gullibility.
wj, I just don’t buy it. It’s not “benefit of the doubt,” it’s gullibility.
OK, call it gullibility. But it’s not totally universal. It applies to things that they hear from people. But the output of a machine?
Sure, you can argue that TVs and the Internet are machines. But those aren’t machines pretending to be people. That would, I believe, set off all their paranoias.
OK, call it gullibility. But it’s not totally universal. It applies to things that they hear from people. But the output of a machine?
Sure, you can argue that TVs and the Internet are machines. But those aren’t machines pretending to be people. That would, I believe, set off all their paranoias.
They’ll be a part of the internet of things,
and thus hackable
when we get machines to the point that they cross over the uncanny valley
i don’t think they will completely cross the uncanny valley. and that’s why i think it would be better to just have machines present as machines, because a machine that is very close to, but not quite, human is actually kind of creepy. in other words, off-putting at an intuitive level. you might not be able to put your finger on it, but something will just be… off.
they might even pass as human in some contexts, but they’ll pass as humans who are not quite right.
there are likely some specific and narrow contexts where pretty damned close to human is actually preferable to obviously machine. working with alzheimers patients might be one. but in general i think people are more likely to trust a machine that they know is a machine, than an apparent human that seems, for some reason, odd.
to me the acid test will be if an android can fool a dog.
They’ll be a part of the internet of things,
and thus hackable
when we get machines to the point that they cross over the uncanny valley
i don’t think they will completely cross the uncanny valley. and that’s why i think it would be better to just have machines present as machines, because a machine that is very close to, but not quite, human is actually kind of creepy. in other words, off-putting at an intuitive level. you might not be able to put your finger on it, but something will just be… off.
they might even pass as human in some contexts, but they’ll pass as humans who are not quite right.
there are likely some specific and narrow contexts where pretty damned close to human is actually preferable to obviously machine. working with alzheimers patients might be one. but in general i think people are more likely to trust a machine that they know is a machine, than an apparent human that seems, for some reason, odd.
to me the acid test will be if an android can fool a dog.
Will android dogs chase driverless cars?
Will android dogs chase driverless cars?
I want my personal caretaker robot to be Oliver Sacks, a national treasure, that one.
I want my personal caretaker robot to be Oliver Sacks, a national treasure, that one.
to me the acid test will be if an android can fool a dog.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg_ZKiZvAFk
to me the acid test will be if an android can fool a dog.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg_ZKiZvAFk
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/prominent-journalist-stabbed-moscow
Odds are in the coming days rump will tweet a reference to this as an example of appropriate behavior toward the press.
After all, conservatives all over the country want to kill the First Amendment by shooting at it with the Second Amendment.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/montana-gop-official-says-she-would-have-shot-journalist-gianforte-assaulted
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/prominent-journalist-stabbed-moscow
Odds are in the coming days rump will tweet a reference to this as an example of appropriate behavior toward the press.
After all, conservatives all over the country want to kill the First Amendment by shooting at it with the Second Amendment.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/montana-gop-official-says-she-would-have-shot-journalist-gianforte-assaulted
conservatives all over the country want to kill the First Amendment by shooting at it with the Second Amendment.
They’ve been saying it so long, and so loud, that folks are starting to believe them,
fun times ahead.
conservatives all over the country want to kill the First Amendment by shooting at it with the Second Amendment.
They’ve been saying it so long, and so loud, that folks are starting to believe them,
fun times ahead.
dog meets dog.
dog meets dog.
I feel like you may confuse a dog, but you’ll never fool it, if you can’t get the smell right. And in cleek’s link, the first thing the dog does after the toy falls down is to go over and smell it. As in, “WTF is this thing, anyhow?”
russell’s link — it’s not entirely clear, but it looks like the “robot” might be being controlled by one of the guys watching. Having just been discussing the talents and limitations of AIs with my son, that makes me observe that although that creation is impressive physically (the legs, the way it moves), it’s not nearly as impressive as it would be if all its movements and reactions to the real dog had been its own “decisions.” But I can’t tell — is the guy with the “controller” in his hand controlling the machine, or not?
I feel like you may confuse a dog, but you’ll never fool it, if you can’t get the smell right. And in cleek’s link, the first thing the dog does after the toy falls down is to go over and smell it. As in, “WTF is this thing, anyhow?”
russell’s link — it’s not entirely clear, but it looks like the “robot” might be being controlled by one of the guys watching. Having just been discussing the talents and limitations of AIs with my son, that makes me observe that although that creation is impressive physically (the legs, the way it moves), it’s not nearly as impressive as it would be if all its movements and reactions to the real dog had been its own “decisions.” But I can’t tell — is the guy with the “controller” in his hand controlling the machine, or not?
I just want to know how many years it will take before they’re as convincing as the later models on Westworld. We can probably manage something today like the old prototypes in the basement.
I just want to know how many years it will take before they’re as convincing as the later models on Westworld. We can probably manage something today like the old prototypes in the basement.
Depends on who got to the dog first:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxyQYSJ3zQg
Show no emotion, because conservatives will spot your emotionalism and point you out.
Maybe there will robot dog-whisperers who will convince the dog to fetch its slippers before it fetches ours.
Depends on who got to the dog first:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxyQYSJ3zQg
Show no emotion, because conservatives will spot your emotionalism and point you out.
Maybe there will robot dog-whisperers who will convince the dog to fetch its slippers before it fetches ours.
I want my personal caretaker robot to be Oliver Sacks, a national treasure, that one.
I’m still majorly bummed that he’s dead. His memoir On the Move: a Life, published just before he died, is worth a read for anybody who hasn’t read it, and all his stuff is good, but in my opinion Awakenings is a masterpiece. I read an interview with him a few years ago in which the interviewer (a well-known novelist), when talking about Awakenings, was obviously unable to control his irritation that the film with Robin Williams had been such a low-brow, feelgood, “heartwarming” sellout of such an extraordinary work, and that Sacks seemed unable to see this, and Oliver Sacks was clearly, benignly, puzzled and uncomprehending of the irritation. It made me think that he did not realise what he had wrought. What a strange, humane, luminous man he was.
I want my personal caretaker robot to be Oliver Sacks, a national treasure, that one.
I’m still majorly bummed that he’s dead. His memoir On the Move: a Life, published just before he died, is worth a read for anybody who hasn’t read it, and all his stuff is good, but in my opinion Awakenings is a masterpiece. I read an interview with him a few years ago in which the interviewer (a well-known novelist), when talking about Awakenings, was obviously unable to control his irritation that the film with Robin Williams had been such a low-brow, feelgood, “heartwarming” sellout of such an extraordinary work, and that Sacks seemed unable to see this, and Oliver Sacks was clearly, benignly, puzzled and uncomprehending of the irritation. It made me think that he did not realise what he had wrought. What a strange, humane, luminous man he was.
it looks like the “robot” might be being controlled by one of the guys watching.
Yes. Remote control, not AI.
The “dog” was developed to be a robotic pack mule for the military, for carrying supplies in difficult terrain. Apparently it was too noisy for that purpose.
I’m sure somebody somewhere is looking for a good use case for it.
it looks like the “robot” might be being controlled by one of the guys watching.
Yes. Remote control, not AI.
The “dog” was developed to be a robotic pack mule for the military, for carrying supplies in difficult terrain. Apparently it was too noisy for that purpose.
I’m sure somebody somewhere is looking for a good use case for it.
Hey, lj, how’s your hurricane? Saw Kumamoto mentioned. Just windy rain?
Hey, lj, how’s your hurricane? Saw Kumamoto mentioned. Just windy rain?
As a final point (hah! in your dreams!), I appreciate that Ishiguro’s baby-ish robot is comforting to people with dementia, perhaps in spite of its truncated and/or missing limbs and weird eerie face, but I have to wonder if it wouldn’t be better to have real live human beings helping people with dementia.
Amazingly enough, real live human beings respond just like real live human beings. Even without millions of dollars of research funding and an army of grad student helpers.
It would be helpful toward that end if hands-on caregivers were actually paid more than $10/hour.
As always, silly me, harping on the theme of valuing the things that people actually do, and expressing that by paying them a living or even more-than-living wage to do them.
As a final point (hah! in your dreams!), I appreciate that Ishiguro’s baby-ish robot is comforting to people with dementia, perhaps in spite of its truncated and/or missing limbs and weird eerie face, but I have to wonder if it wouldn’t be better to have real live human beings helping people with dementia.
Amazingly enough, real live human beings respond just like real live human beings. Even without millions of dollars of research funding and an army of grad student helpers.
It would be helpful toward that end if hands-on caregivers were actually paid more than $10/hour.
As always, silly me, harping on the theme of valuing the things that people actually do, and expressing that by paying them a living or even more-than-living wage to do them.
a machine that is very close to, but not quite, human is actually kind of creepy. in other words, off-putting at an intuitive level.
It occurs to me that we may be being a little egocentric here. That is, yeah machines like this are kind of creepy . . . to us.
But then, we didn’t grow up with them, did we? Will the generations who grow up with a machine-generated voice on their computer as a routine thing be as creeped out? Or will they simply see a machine pretending to be human as part of their view of normal?
The more I think about it, the more I wonder if it will just be another technological change. One which is a wonder for one generation, kind of cool but pretty normal for the next, and utterly unremarkable for the ones after that.
Think, for example, about the way (landline) telephones have been viewed. For my grandparents (who grew up in California in the late 1800s) it was amazing to be able to talk to someone on across town, let alone on the far side of the country. My parents were impressed when they became able to dial a call across the country without going thru an operator. I routinely dial calls which go anywhere in the world, and frankly think nothing of it.
a machine that is very close to, but not quite, human is actually kind of creepy. in other words, off-putting at an intuitive level.
It occurs to me that we may be being a little egocentric here. That is, yeah machines like this are kind of creepy . . . to us.
But then, we didn’t grow up with them, did we? Will the generations who grow up with a machine-generated voice on their computer as a routine thing be as creeped out? Or will they simply see a machine pretending to be human as part of their view of normal?
The more I think about it, the more I wonder if it will just be another technological change. One which is a wonder for one generation, kind of cool but pretty normal for the next, and utterly unremarkable for the ones after that.
Think, for example, about the way (landline) telephones have been viewed. For my grandparents (who grew up in California in the late 1800s) it was amazing to be able to talk to someone on across town, let alone on the far side of the country. My parents were impressed when they became able to dial a call across the country without going thru an operator. I routinely dial calls which go anywhere in the world, and frankly think nothing of it.
Hey, lj, how’s your hurricane?
Pedantry lives! I believe that it’s only a hurricane if it is in the Atlantic. In the Pacific, it’s a typhoon. (Wonder which one they use for storms like that in the Indian Ocean….)
Hey, lj, how’s your hurricane?
Pedantry lives! I believe that it’s only a hurricane if it is in the Atlantic. In the Pacific, it’s a typhoon. (Wonder which one they use for storms like that in the Indian Ocean….)
will they simply see a machine pretending to be human as part of their view of normal?
I think people will see machines that emulate humans, but which are clearly not humans, to be fine. E.g., a computer generated voice, or animation, or even robot that is human-ish but fairly obviously not a person.
I’d even extend that to situations where it might be a human or it might not, but it sort of doesn’t matter. The nice “person” that I talk to when I renew a prescription doesn’t bother me. Sounds like person, I know it’s not, and it doesn’t matter.
But what makes the uncanny valley effect uncanny, and therefore creepy, is when the illusion of a human person is sort of credible, but not completely credible. Is it, or isn’t it? That’s the creepy part.
And I think that is probably baked in, by thousands and tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of years of adaptation. We recognize that another consciousness that resembles ours sees and recognizes us. And the things that create that recognition are manifold, and subtle, and intuitive, and very hard to emulate convincingly in more than a very narrow context.
Could there be a robot that can take my dinner reservation and pass as a human? Or talk with me on the phone? Or direct traffic?
Yes, probably.
Could there be a robot that can convincingly engage in a conversation about existential dread? A robot that can follow and participate in an extended stream of sarcastic human among friends?
I don’t think so.
Robots can mirror human behavior. They cannot and I think will not ever live it. And I think we’ll be able to tell.
Maybe technology will get all the way across the uncanny valley and fool us all. At that point, I’ll once again ask the question, why bother?
People already *are* people. We don’t need fake people.
will they simply see a machine pretending to be human as part of their view of normal?
I think people will see machines that emulate humans, but which are clearly not humans, to be fine. E.g., a computer generated voice, or animation, or even robot that is human-ish but fairly obviously not a person.
I’d even extend that to situations where it might be a human or it might not, but it sort of doesn’t matter. The nice “person” that I talk to when I renew a prescription doesn’t bother me. Sounds like person, I know it’s not, and it doesn’t matter.
But what makes the uncanny valley effect uncanny, and therefore creepy, is when the illusion of a human person is sort of credible, but not completely credible. Is it, or isn’t it? That’s the creepy part.
And I think that is probably baked in, by thousands and tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of years of adaptation. We recognize that another consciousness that resembles ours sees and recognizes us. And the things that create that recognition are manifold, and subtle, and intuitive, and very hard to emulate convincingly in more than a very narrow context.
Could there be a robot that can take my dinner reservation and pass as a human? Or talk with me on the phone? Or direct traffic?
Yes, probably.
Could there be a robot that can convincingly engage in a conversation about existential dread? A robot that can follow and participate in an extended stream of sarcastic human among friends?
I don’t think so.
Robots can mirror human behavior. They cannot and I think will not ever live it. And I think we’ll be able to tell.
Maybe technology will get all the way across the uncanny valley and fool us all. At that point, I’ll once again ask the question, why bother?
People already *are* people. We don’t need fake people.
People already *are* people. We don’t need fake people.
Although some seem determined to fake being human beings. And unconvincingly. (Which people those are is, however, a matter on which there is some disagreement.)
People already *are* people. We don’t need fake people.
Although some seem determined to fake being human beings. And unconvincingly. (Which people those are is, however, a matter on which there is some disagreement.)
People already *are* people. We don’t need fake people.
Sure we do. Then we can have slavery again, but without the mess.
(Not that this wasn’t pointed out long since by other people than yvt.)
People already *are* people. We don’t need fake people.
Sure we do. Then we can have slavery again, but without the mess.
(Not that this wasn’t pointed out long since by other people than yvt.)
And of course, “without the mess” is another one of those delusions of the tech-glorifying, job-creating geniuses of the world.
I wonder if “fake human” robots will have better luck, or do a better job, of pushing back.
I can’t stop thinking about those Uber numbers from a recent link…$70bn of value for the 4,000 geniuses to carve up, $7.50 an hour for the peons.
And of course, “without the mess” is another one of those delusions of the tech-glorifying, job-creating geniuses of the world.
I wonder if “fake human” robots will have better luck, or do a better job, of pushing back.
I can’t stop thinking about those Uber numbers from a recent link…$70bn of value for the 4,000 geniuses to carve up, $7.50 an hour for the peons.
What if my neighbors and I had just banded together and said let’s write a ride-sharing app? (True ride-sharing, per Tony P., or even if not that, then small money passed around the way my mother pays the woman who gives her rides now that she (my mom) can’t drive anymore.)
Probably our little ride-sharing app would be stomped on by some governmental entity in the name of regulation, but really egged on by…Uber. Or its equivalent. Just like (not going to search for a link) the broadband providers stomp on municipalities that try to set up systems of broadband as a public utility.
Protection from unfair competition is important!!!!! But only for massive multi-national companies, not for local cab drivers.
/rant; I’m supposed to be working.
What if my neighbors and I had just banded together and said let’s write a ride-sharing app? (True ride-sharing, per Tony P., or even if not that, then small money passed around the way my mother pays the woman who gives her rides now that she (my mom) can’t drive anymore.)
Probably our little ride-sharing app would be stomped on by some governmental entity in the name of regulation, but really egged on by…Uber. Or its equivalent. Just like (not going to search for a link) the broadband providers stomp on municipalities that try to set up systems of broadband as a public utility.
Protection from unfair competition is important!!!!! But only for massive multi-national companies, not for local cab drivers.
/rant; I’m supposed to be working.
/rant; I’m supposed to be working.
Should your employer replace you with a robot that can do your job, or should Obsidian Wings replace you with a blogging robot?
Maybe both. Then someone will need a robot to do whatever it is you would be doing if not working or blogging … and so on and so forth.
We must strive for total obsolescence.
/rant; I’m supposed to be working.
Should your employer replace you with a robot that can do your job, or should Obsidian Wings replace you with a blogging robot?
Maybe both. Then someone will need a robot to do whatever it is you would be doing if not working or blogging … and so on and so forth.
We must strive for total obsolescence.
hsh: lol, you made me laugh out loud.
But then we’ll be right back where we started from, no? Oh, wait, the human-like robots will be improved models…..like I said, without the mess.
hsh: lol, you made me laugh out loud.
But then we’ll be right back where we started from, no? Oh, wait, the human-like robots will be improved models…..like I said, without the mess.
Given Uber’s facility for enabling hookups, why don’t they offer sex robots of the type in lj’s link far above as an accessory? Right in the driverless cars.
Or maybe a free-standing sex robot sharing app with sex robots lined up in indoor racks like the urban bicycle sharing facilities.
When android dogs and cats become all the rage, will the pilotless airlines permit them on planes as companion android pets.
Instead of lapdogs … appdogs. That’s for Ugh, who seeks a punless robot.
They could sniff out explosives too, saving on security.
Given Uber’s facility for enabling hookups, why don’t they offer sex robots of the type in lj’s link far above as an accessory? Right in the driverless cars.
Or maybe a free-standing sex robot sharing app with sex robots lined up in indoor racks like the urban bicycle sharing facilities.
When android dogs and cats become all the rage, will the pilotless airlines permit them on planes as companion android pets.
Instead of lapdogs … appdogs. That’s for Ugh, who seeks a punless robot.
They could sniff out explosives too, saving on security.
The typhoon missed us, it was just windy rain. The sky looked spectacular though.
Happy to have it miss us, I think we’ve had 3 that have threatened to go thru Kumamoto, which leads to classes being cancelled and arranging makeups. This is because about 5 years ago, the Ministry of Health and Welfare discovered that the Ministry of Education was allowing Japanese universities to have 15 classes a term ‘程度’ (teido, which translates to ‘extent’ or ‘degree’) In practice, this meant that a university scheduled 13 or 14, and this was sufficient. However, the Ministry of Health and Welfare, which grants certification for students graduating in nursing, child care, diet, etc, said that they would refuse to certify students if they didn’t have 15 classes in the required subjects. This led to the bizarre turn where recent graduates (I think it was for the previous year) had to come back to the universities to take 2 classes in various subjects to make sure that their certifications would be approved by that Ministry.
Never mind that the whole thing was ridiculous (precisely what information did they miss? And how would 2 additional classes make up for that?) and was basically an inter-minstry pissing contest, from then on, we have been required to teach 15 classes a term and if classes are missed, we are required to have makeups. And never mind that because of scheduling, we can have the class and students cannot attend, so for make up classes, it is possible to have a only a handful of students, with the educational purpose of having those classes nonexistent. We have to have 15 classes and by god, we will have them.
That might help explain why tests have “Rivers in Belgium, the cities on those rivers, and the industries in the cities. All the generals under Oda Nobunaga, and what they did in specific battles.” No one is expected to use that information, but because it is asked for, everyone acquires it and tosses it when they don’t need it, which is when they have finished the test.
The typhoon missed us, it was just windy rain. The sky looked spectacular though.
Happy to have it miss us, I think we’ve had 3 that have threatened to go thru Kumamoto, which leads to classes being cancelled and arranging makeups. This is because about 5 years ago, the Ministry of Health and Welfare discovered that the Ministry of Education was allowing Japanese universities to have 15 classes a term ‘程度’ (teido, which translates to ‘extent’ or ‘degree’) In practice, this meant that a university scheduled 13 or 14, and this was sufficient. However, the Ministry of Health and Welfare, which grants certification for students graduating in nursing, child care, diet, etc, said that they would refuse to certify students if they didn’t have 15 classes in the required subjects. This led to the bizarre turn where recent graduates (I think it was for the previous year) had to come back to the universities to take 2 classes in various subjects to make sure that their certifications would be approved by that Ministry.
Never mind that the whole thing was ridiculous (precisely what information did they miss? And how would 2 additional classes make up for that?) and was basically an inter-minstry pissing contest, from then on, we have been required to teach 15 classes a term and if classes are missed, we are required to have makeups. And never mind that because of scheduling, we can have the class and students cannot attend, so for make up classes, it is possible to have a only a handful of students, with the educational purpose of having those classes nonexistent. We have to have 15 classes and by god, we will have them.
That might help explain why tests have “Rivers in Belgium, the cities on those rivers, and the industries in the cities. All the generals under Oda Nobunaga, and what they did in specific battles.” No one is expected to use that information, but because it is asked for, everyone acquires it and tosses it when they don’t need it, which is when they have finished the test.
Switching gears a bit here (and I have them, being a mostly mechanical facsimile of a human), I was on the bridge into Philly Friday night and saw a billboard with contact information for reporting suspected human trafficking.
So here I am in the United States, the wealthiest and most powerful nation humankind has ever known, and human trafficking is a common-enough occurrence that there are billboards devoted to telling people how to report it.
Without getting into much detail right away, my general thought was that this is what comes of the levels of economic inequality we are now seeing.
Switching gears a bit here (and I have them, being a mostly mechanical facsimile of a human), I was on the bridge into Philly Friday night and saw a billboard with contact information for reporting suspected human trafficking.
So here I am in the United States, the wealthiest and most powerful nation humankind has ever known, and human trafficking is a common-enough occurrence that there are billboards devoted to telling people how to report it.
Without getting into much detail right away, my general thought was that this is what comes of the levels of economic inequality we are now seeing.
hsh: lol, you made me laugh out loud.
Then I have served my purpose for the day. I’m a funny robot. ;^)
hsh: lol, you made me laugh out loud.
Then I have served my purpose for the day. I’m a funny robot. ;^)
I have to wonder if it wouldn’t be better to have real live human beings helping people with dementia
Possibly, but very few people are going to have the patience to deal with them. Especially if they are going to get paid minimum wage. If we could get to a point where people with these jobs and others (like preschool teachers) would get the wage appropriate to the difficulty of their jobs, it might happen, but don’t hold your breath.
I have to wonder if it wouldn’t be better to have real live human beings helping people with dementia
Possibly, but very few people are going to have the patience to deal with them. Especially if they are going to get paid minimum wage. If we could get to a point where people with these jobs and others (like preschool teachers) would get the wage appropriate to the difficulty of their jobs, it might happen, but don’t hold your breath.
This led to the bizarre turn where recent graduates (I think it was for the previous year) had to come back to the universities to take 2 classes in various subjects to make sure that their certifications would be approved by that Ministry.
And here I thought this was the sort of thing that only happened in weird dreams I have about having to go back to high school or college to take some class someone decided I needed to take after the fact to have properly graduated.
They are always of the I-know-this-is-somehow-wrong variety of dreams, because the “premise” is too ridiculous. Next time, I’ll take that version of dream more seriously.
This led to the bizarre turn where recent graduates (I think it was for the previous year) had to come back to the universities to take 2 classes in various subjects to make sure that their certifications would be approved by that Ministry.
And here I thought this was the sort of thing that only happened in weird dreams I have about having to go back to high school or college to take some class someone decided I needed to take after the fact to have properly graduated.
They are always of the I-know-this-is-somehow-wrong variety of dreams, because the “premise” is too ridiculous. Next time, I’ll take that version of dream more seriously.
As to the human trafficking billboard, I saw an article recently (forget where it was, but I think in the Kennebec Journal, the local paper) about being on the lookout for signs of human trafficking, and reporting accordingly. The agency going on about the evils of human trafficking, and to which one was asked to report, was…ICE.
This gives me the heebie-jeebies, to tell the truth. Sad to be so cynical, but are they then going to deport the victims for being here without papers, or what?
As to the human trafficking billboard, I saw an article recently (forget where it was, but I think in the Kennebec Journal, the local paper) about being on the lookout for signs of human trafficking, and reporting accordingly. The agency going on about the evils of human trafficking, and to which one was asked to report, was…ICE.
This gives me the heebie-jeebies, to tell the truth. Sad to be so cynical, but are they then going to deport the victims for being here without papers, or what?
What will Rod Dreher say if there are gay robots?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOyn9MaZGqY
Would it be the end of robocivilization? Or would it be OK as long as they don’t require cake?
What if Richard Spencer showed up to have his inseam measured and the robotic tailors were Jewish?
Would he give up wearing pants altogether?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV2N4KSh3x4
What will Rod Dreher say if there are gay robots?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOyn9MaZGqY
Would it be the end of robocivilization? Or would it be OK as long as they don’t require cake?
What if Richard Spencer showed up to have his inseam measured and the robotic tailors were Jewish?
Would he give up wearing pants altogether?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV2N4KSh3x4
…, and human trafficking is a common-enough occurrence that there are billboards devoted to telling people how to report it.
It’s a common-enough occurrence in various politicians’, law enforcement officials’, and activists’ imaginations. Real occurrences are likely substantially lower.
…, and human trafficking is a common-enough occurrence that there are billboards devoted to telling people how to report it.
It’s a common-enough occurrence in various politicians’, law enforcement officials’, and activists’ imaginations. Real occurrences are likely substantially lower.
…various politicians’, law enforcement officials’, and activists’ imaginations.
If you don’t believe this set of people (and I’m not necessarily saying you should), what other set of people do you believe to be as certain as you are that it’s only a matter of imagination?
…various politicians’, law enforcement officials’, and activists’ imaginations.
If you don’t believe this set of people (and I’m not necessarily saying you should), what other set of people do you believe to be as certain as you are that it’s only a matter of imagination?
…ICE.
I don’t know who the contact info was for on the billboard. I was driving and only took notice of the main thrust of it. I remember the image, but have not been able to find anything on google that looks like the billboard I saw. I’m going to keep any eye out for it when on the road. Now I’m curious to know if it was an ICE setup.
…ICE.
I don’t know who the contact info was for on the billboard. I was driving and only took notice of the main thrust of it. I remember the image, but have not been able to find anything on google that looks like the billboard I saw. I’m going to keep any eye out for it when on the road. Now I’m curious to know if it was an ICE setup.
The “dog” was developed to be a robotic pack mule for the military, for carrying supplies in difficult terrain…. I’m sure somebody somewhere is looking for a good use case for it.
As recently as 30 years ago — don’t know about today — some of the telephone companies in the Mountain West still had mule strings for carrying equipment into remote areas for repairs.
The “dog” was developed to be a robotic pack mule for the military, for carrying supplies in difficult terrain…. I’m sure somebody somewhere is looking for a good use case for it.
As recently as 30 years ago — don’t know about today — some of the telephone companies in the Mountain West still had mule strings for carrying equipment into remote areas for repairs.
The agency going on about the evils of human trafficking, and to which one was asked to report, was…ICE.
This gives me the heebie-jeebies, to tell the truth. Sad to be so cynical, but are they then going to deport the victims for being here without papers, or what?
I’d bet that, if you asked ICE, they would tell you that they believe that the traffickers are the illegal immigrants. And are abusing real Americans who they are trafficking in. (That’s their story, and they’ll stick to it. Until the actual busts hit.)
The agency going on about the evils of human trafficking, and to which one was asked to report, was…ICE.
This gives me the heebie-jeebies, to tell the truth. Sad to be so cynical, but are they then going to deport the victims for being here without papers, or what?
I’d bet that, if you asked ICE, they would tell you that they believe that the traffickers are the illegal immigrants. And are abusing real Americans who they are trafficking in. (That’s their story, and they’ll stick to it. Until the actual busts hit.)
wj, yes, that’s related to what I was thinking.
What seems to be the ACLU’s main page on trafficking doesn’t mention ICE one way or the other. I dislike that it only mentions women in the headline, though it does mention men and children in the first paragraph.
Victims can get services and have opportunities to stay here, in various circumstances that all involve cooperation with prosecuting the perps.
wj, yes, that’s related to what I was thinking.
What seems to be the ACLU’s main page on trafficking doesn’t mention ICE one way or the other. I dislike that it only mentions women in the headline, though it does mention men and children in the first paragraph.
Victims can get services and have opportunities to stay here, in various circumstances that all involve cooperation with prosecuting the perps.
wj, separate topic, have you got anything to say about the California Republican convention? Do you still have hopes of reclaiming your party?
wj, separate topic, have you got anything to say about the California Republican convention? Do you still have hopes of reclaiming your party?
While any human-trafficking number above zero is too many, law enforcement isn’t making all that many arrests for it in spite of the effort they’re spending on the problem.
For instance, Florida reported 105 investigations into human-trafficking offenses in 2016 but zero human trafficking arrests last year. Nevada worked on 140 human-trafficking investigations but made only 40 arrests on trafficking charges. Louisiana looked into 123 potential cases of human trafficking but only arrested 16 people for it.
Human-Trafficking Arrests Are Very Rare in Most States: The exceptions in 2016 were Minnesota and Texas, according to newly released FBI data.
While any human-trafficking number above zero is too many, law enforcement isn’t making all that many arrests for it in spite of the effort they’re spending on the problem.
For instance, Florida reported 105 investigations into human-trafficking offenses in 2016 but zero human trafficking arrests last year. Nevada worked on 140 human-trafficking investigations but made only 40 arrests on trafficking charges. Louisiana looked into 123 potential cases of human trafficking but only arrested 16 people for it.
Human-Trafficking Arrests Are Very Rare in Most States: The exceptions in 2016 were Minnesota and Texas, according to newly released FBI data.
Janie,
Hope to? Yes.
Expect to, any time soon? Not so much.
While there are increasing numbers of Republican officials at the local (and even state legislature) level who are sensible. The folks running the state party are, for now, still from the ideological nut case faction.
Those people spent, if memory serves, a couple of decades (if not more) working their way into control of the state party. Getting them out again will likely take at least as long — probably longer, given their disinterest in working with others, something that handicapped those who opposed their original drive.
Janie,
Hope to? Yes.
Expect to, any time soon? Not so much.
While there are increasing numbers of Republican officials at the local (and even state legislature) level who are sensible. The folks running the state party are, for now, still from the ideological nut case faction.
Those people spent, if memory serves, a couple of decades (if not more) working their way into control of the state party. Getting them out again will likely take at least as long — probably longer, given their disinterest in working with others, something that handicapped those who opposed their original drive.
Florida reported 105 investigations into human-trafficking offenses in 2016 but zero human trafficking arrests last year. Nevada worked on 140 human-trafficking investigations but made only 40 arrests on trafficking charges. Louisiana looked into 123 potential cases of human trafficking but only arrested 16 people for it.
I don’t know California’s total numbers. But I did find this in my local paper this summer:
http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/07/26/danville-couple-convicted-in-nationwide-human-trafficking-ring/
Florida reported 105 investigations into human-trafficking offenses in 2016 but zero human trafficking arrests last year. Nevada worked on 140 human-trafficking investigations but made only 40 arrests on trafficking charges. Louisiana looked into 123 potential cases of human trafficking but only arrested 16 people for it.
I don’t know California’s total numbers. But I did find this in my local paper this summer:
http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/07/26/danville-couple-convicted-in-nationwide-human-trafficking-ring/
wj: While there are increasing numbers of Republican officials at the local (and even state legislature) level who are sensible. The folks running the state party are, for now, still from the ideological nut case faction.
I hope we agree that if “Republican” means nothing else, it means “not-a-Democrat”. Okay, I’ll allow that one can be simultaneously “sensible” and “not-a-Democrat”. As a citizen and a voter, I mean.
For an elected official, the label “Republican” means something more. At the very least, it has to mean that you will vote for the Republican (and not the Democrat) to be Speaker, for example. In the Congress for sure, and I believe in most if not all legislatures organized on the same principles, the House Speaker and the Senate Majority Leader get to set the agenda. No back-bencher, however “sensible”, can bring to the floor a bill the Speaker or Leader doesn’t want to be voted on. If the Speaker or Leader is of the “nutcase faction”, what’s a “sensible” back-bencher to do?
Run as an independent, that’s what.
Oh sure, a “sensible” Republican could try running for office on the promise of NOT voting for the nutcase at the top to be Speaker or Leader. Has that actually heppened? Did that candidate get past the primary? If elected, did that candidate get assigned to anything beyond the Committee on Postage and Carpet Maintenance?
I am not asking, BTW, about a Republican candidate who vows not to vote for the Republican at the top on the grounds that said leader is not nutcase-y enough.
Bottom line: anybody running for office as a “Republican” starts out with at least one strike on the “sensible” count.
–TP
wj: While there are increasing numbers of Republican officials at the local (and even state legislature) level who are sensible. The folks running the state party are, for now, still from the ideological nut case faction.
I hope we agree that if “Republican” means nothing else, it means “not-a-Democrat”. Okay, I’ll allow that one can be simultaneously “sensible” and “not-a-Democrat”. As a citizen and a voter, I mean.
For an elected official, the label “Republican” means something more. At the very least, it has to mean that you will vote for the Republican (and not the Democrat) to be Speaker, for example. In the Congress for sure, and I believe in most if not all legislatures organized on the same principles, the House Speaker and the Senate Majority Leader get to set the agenda. No back-bencher, however “sensible”, can bring to the floor a bill the Speaker or Leader doesn’t want to be voted on. If the Speaker or Leader is of the “nutcase faction”, what’s a “sensible” back-bencher to do?
Run as an independent, that’s what.
Oh sure, a “sensible” Republican could try running for office on the promise of NOT voting for the nutcase at the top to be Speaker or Leader. Has that actually heppened? Did that candidate get past the primary? If elected, did that candidate get assigned to anything beyond the Committee on Postage and Carpet Maintenance?
I am not asking, BTW, about a Republican candidate who vows not to vote for the Republican at the top on the grounds that said leader is not nutcase-y enough.
Bottom line: anybody running for office as a “Republican” starts out with at least one strike on the “sensible” count.
–TP
Bottom line: anybody running for office as a “Republican” starts out with at least one strike on the “sensible” count.
is excluded from the “sensible” count.
the President, which they, statistically speaking all support is a blithering fucking idiot. a disgrace. an affront to everything every fucking single one of their all-hallowed Founding Father figures stood for.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/23/16522456/trump-bartiromo-transcript
anyone who supports the GOP is a goddamned degenerate America-hating waste of carbohydrates.
burn the GOP down and cast the ashes in the Oort cloud.
Bottom line: anybody running for office as a “Republican” starts out with at least one strike on the “sensible” count.
is excluded from the “sensible” count.
the President, which they, statistically speaking all support is a blithering fucking idiot. a disgrace. an affront to everything every fucking single one of their all-hallowed Founding Father figures stood for.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/23/16522456/trump-bartiromo-transcript
anyone who supports the GOP is a goddamned degenerate America-hating waste of carbohydrates.
burn the GOP down and cast the ashes in the Oort cloud.
The Money Honey Bartiromo, an ignorant republican fluffer posing as a broadcast “business” journalist, was with CNBC I believe when she was “interviewing” a Wall Streeter regarding Social Security, who was inclined to support the program, and in a haranguing huff she asked him if HE liked it so much, why wasn’t HE on the program and receiving benefits, to which taken aback by the abyss of conservative dipshit republican fuck-all stupidity yawning before him, he spluttered something about the fact that he was only in his fifties and not eligible for benefits yet and then gave up on the rest of the explanation knowing full well it was being received by the darkened brainless vacuum inside the obtuse skull of a republican asshole conservative full of shit cloth-eared beet.
Bartiromo moved to FOX soon thereafter and brought the median IQ at that joint up a point or two, but only because she has smart looking legs while doing the twirl.
Between rump and her alone, carbohydrates have found a home.
The Money Honey Bartiromo, an ignorant republican fluffer posing as a broadcast “business” journalist, was with CNBC I believe when she was “interviewing” a Wall Streeter regarding Social Security, who was inclined to support the program, and in a haranguing huff she asked him if HE liked it so much, why wasn’t HE on the program and receiving benefits, to which taken aback by the abyss of conservative dipshit republican fuck-all stupidity yawning before him, he spluttered something about the fact that he was only in his fifties and not eligible for benefits yet and then gave up on the rest of the explanation knowing full well it was being received by the darkened brainless vacuum inside the obtuse skull of a republican asshole conservative full of shit cloth-eared beet.
Bartiromo moved to FOX soon thereafter and brought the median IQ at that joint up a point or two, but only because she has smart looking legs while doing the twirl.
Between rump and her alone, carbohydrates have found a home.
Rump’s senseless sentences remind me of the phrasing of the Second Amendment.
Three commas separated by argle-bargle.
He should take a gulp of water and gargle and scratch his crotch while he answers questions.
Rump’s senseless sentences remind me of the phrasing of the Second Amendment.
Three commas separated by argle-bargle.
He should take a gulp of water and gargle and scratch his crotch while he answers questions.
burn the GOP down and cast the ashes in the Oort cloud.
OK, let’s say we go that route. Where does a new alternative party come from? Are you expecting the Democrats to just split?
Because, at least to date, the only way we get a new major party to replace one of the old ones is to have a massive motivating issue for it to form around. The closest we seem to have to such a thing at the moment is tne massive sense of grievance that animates the Trump enthusiasts. Somehow, I don’t see them becoming, or having the least interest in becoming, a “party of government.” They seem to be all about smashing things, not about building anything positive.
burn the GOP down and cast the ashes in the Oort cloud.
OK, let’s say we go that route. Where does a new alternative party come from? Are you expecting the Democrats to just split?
Because, at least to date, the only way we get a new major party to replace one of the old ones is to have a massive motivating issue for it to form around. The closest we seem to have to such a thing at the moment is tne massive sense of grievance that animates the Trump enthusiasts. Somehow, I don’t see them becoming, or having the least interest in becoming, a “party of government.” They seem to be all about smashing things, not about building anything positive.
the massive sense of grievance is that a lot of people live in fear. the basis and quality of their lives is contingent, unstable, vulnerable.
take it from there.
if the (R)’s want to make a contribution, address that. trump is addressing it in the most harmful ways possible, in your name. don’t let him do that.
take your party back, or cut it loose.
the massive sense of grievance is that a lot of people live in fear. the basis and quality of their lives is contingent, unstable, vulnerable.
take it from there.
if the (R)’s want to make a contribution, address that. trump is addressing it in the most harmful ways possible, in your name. don’t let him do that.
take your party back, or cut it loose.
Melissa V. Ramirez
Melissa V. Ramirez
I’m trying to figure out how ” cut it loose” works. What comes next? Both for non-Democrats and those who just think we need two viable political parties.
I’m trying to figure out how ” cut it loose” works. What comes next? Both for non-Democrats and those who just think we need two viable political parties.
Late to the discourse, and little to say beyond this:
I believe that it’s only a hurricane if it is in the Atlantic. In the Pacific, it’s a typhoon. (Wonder which one they use for storms like that in the Indian Ocean….)
Neither. They are cyclones there, I believe.
Late to the discourse, and little to say beyond this:
I believe that it’s only a hurricane if it is in the Atlantic. In the Pacific, it’s a typhoon. (Wonder which one they use for storms like that in the Indian Ocean….)
Neither. They are cyclones there, I believe.
Hurricanes are in the Atlantic and “western” Pacific (between N. America and Hawai’i). So the storms that hit Baja California are Hurricanes.
And if they drift far enough west, they get renamed as typhoons. But to be named a ‘cyclone’ they’d have to make it south of the Equator or into the Indian Ocean.
If they make it to Jupiter, they get called a “spot”.
Hurricanes are in the Atlantic and “western” Pacific (between N. America and Hawai’i). So the storms that hit Baja California are Hurricanes.
And if they drift far enough west, they get renamed as typhoons. But to be named a ‘cyclone’ they’d have to make it south of the Equator or into the Indian Ocean.
If they make it to Jupiter, they get called a “spot”.
Where does a new alternative party come from?
i don’t care.
one step at a time.
Where does a new alternative party come from?
i don’t care.
one step at a time.
I’m trying to figure out how ” cut it loose” works
how did a cadre of reactionaries and randian weirdos get control of the party in the first place? they figured it out. folks who want their party back need to do the same.
the alternative is to be unrepresented at the national level.
I’m trying to figure out how ” cut it loose” works
how did a cadre of reactionaries and randian weirdos get control of the party in the first place? they figured it out. folks who want their party back need to do the same.
the alternative is to be unrepresented at the national level.
The first rule of fight club is don’t tell them it will be boring. I can’t wait until the alt-right and cyborg punk make common cause:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/giant-robot-fight-organizers-say-next-step-is-giant-robot-fighting-league/ar-AAtXi5E
The first rule of fight club is don’t tell them it will be boring. I can’t wait until the alt-right and cyborg punk make common cause:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/giant-robot-fight-organizers-say-next-step-is-giant-robot-fighting-league/ar-AAtXi5E
how did a cadre of reactionaries and randian weirdos get control of the party…
More importantly, how did they get control of the country?
how did a cadre of reactionaries and randian weirdos get control of the party…
More importantly, how did they get control of the country?
OK, let’s say we go that route. Where does a new alternative party come from? Are you expecting the Democrats to just split?
Given a political eraser that could obliterate the GOP, why yes, the Dems would split. Our first past the post election structure pretty much mandates two parties.
Ever since Thaddeus Stevens and Charles Sumner died, the GOP has been run by hard money imperial expansionist lunatics dedicated to the prime directive that all the wealth produced by our economy belongs to a select few. That some of these clowns were in the Democratic Party was an accident of history, and they figured out their true political home starting in the 1970’s.
Perhaps, wj, you forgot what happened to “reasonable” Whigs. They went extinct.
OK, let’s say we go that route. Where does a new alternative party come from? Are you expecting the Democrats to just split?
Given a political eraser that could obliterate the GOP, why yes, the Dems would split. Our first past the post election structure pretty much mandates two parties.
Ever since Thaddeus Stevens and Charles Sumner died, the GOP has been run by hard money imperial expansionist lunatics dedicated to the prime directive that all the wealth produced by our economy belongs to a select few. That some of these clowns were in the Democratic Party was an accident of history, and they figured out their true political home starting in the 1970’s.
Perhaps, wj, you forgot what happened to “reasonable” Whigs. They went extinct.
you know, you could always just register as a (D).
seriously, folks like obama and clinton are too “left”?
all of the centrist conservatives at the national level have (D) after their names these days.
my representation is warren, markey, and moulton. markey might be a little too old-school liberal for the average centrist conservative. moulton should be right up your alley, warren too if you can ignore the whining of the baksters for ten minutes.
sane, rational, reasonable, responsible people, trying to achieve the common good. not remotely the lefty bomb throwers of fox news’ dreams.
the (R) you remember is now the (D)’s. at the national level, anyway.
come on over.
you know, you could always just register as a (D).
seriously, folks like obama and clinton are too “left”?
all of the centrist conservatives at the national level have (D) after their names these days.
my representation is warren, markey, and moulton. markey might be a little too old-school liberal for the average centrist conservative. moulton should be right up your alley, warren too if you can ignore the whining of the baksters for ten minutes.
sane, rational, reasonable, responsible people, trying to achieve the common good. not remotely the lefty bomb throwers of fox news’ dreams.
the (R) you remember is now the (D)’s. at the national level, anyway.
come on over.
Look at the last 4 administrations – Clinton, Bush, Obama, and Trump – spanning nearly a quarter of a century. What were the worst things done or attempted during these administrations, and under which administrations did they happen? What about the best things? How did the country fare in general? What happened when congress was controlled by the same party that controlled the White House? How have different states done when controlled by either party over the last 25 years?
How do the answers to these questions affect your desire to remain a Republican?
Look at the last 4 administrations – Clinton, Bush, Obama, and Trump – spanning nearly a quarter of a century. What were the worst things done or attempted during these administrations, and under which administrations did they happen? What about the best things? How did the country fare in general? What happened when congress was controlled by the same party that controlled the White House? How have different states done when controlled by either party over the last 25 years?
How do the answers to these questions affect your desire to remain a Republican?
russell to wj: come on over.
From the “Don Juan in Hell” scene in Act III of Man and Superman.
…
It’s only an echo, born of the strong image of someone making a momentous decision to cross over to the other side. Shaw’s heaven and hell don’t match up well with the political parties, and his Devil is nothing like russell. But I’m getting a chuckle out of the image of russell as the Son of the Morning welcoming wj heartily to his side of the great divide.
russell to wj: come on over.
From the “Don Juan in Hell” scene in Act III of Man and Superman.
…
It’s only an echo, born of the strong image of someone making a momentous decision to cross over to the other side. Shaw’s heaven and hell don’t match up well with the political parties, and his Devil is nothing like russell. But I’m getting a chuckle out of the image of russell as the Son of the Morning welcoming wj heartily to his side of the great divide.
OK, I have gotten my laughter under control.
Warren is a centrist? She may be left of Bernie. C’mon, not a one of those people is anywhere near the center outside Cambridge.
OK, I have gotten my laughter under control.
Warren is a centrist? She may be left of Bernie. C’mon, not a one of those people is anywhere near the center outside Cambridge.
Warren is a centrist? She may be left of Bernie.
As you wish. You can lead a horse to water…
As always, not my circus.
Warren is a centrist? She may be left of Bernie.
As you wish. You can lead a horse to water…
As always, not my circus.
GovTrack thinks Warren is an extreme lefty.
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/elizabeth_warren/412542
but then again, their analysis isn’t actually based on positions. it’s based on who co-sponsors the bills each Senator proposes. Warren gets support from Democrats, and that’s it.
but that’s no surprise, since she’s widely hated by the same people who love Donald Trump.
GovTrack thinks Warren is an extreme lefty.
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/elizabeth_warren/412542
but then again, their analysis isn’t actually based on positions. it’s based on who co-sponsors the bills each Senator proposes. Warren gets support from Democrats, and that’s it.
but that’s no surprise, since she’s widely hated by the same people who love Donald Trump.
I’m getting a chuckle out of the image of russell as the Son of the Morning welcoming wj heartily to his side of the great divide.
It’s more like “when you get tired of beating your head against the wall, maybe think about not beating your head against the wall”.
But, whatever. The (D)’s are, in fact, the devil himself in some folks’ eyes. Warren’s a lefty, Obama was a tyrant, Clinton is a world-historical evil power-hungry dictator-in-waiting.
Carry on, y’all. See ya on the flip side, assuming there is one.
I’m getting a chuckle out of the image of russell as the Son of the Morning welcoming wj heartily to his side of the great divide.
It’s more like “when you get tired of beating your head against the wall, maybe think about not beating your head against the wall”.
But, whatever. The (D)’s are, in fact, the devil himself in some folks’ eyes. Warren’s a lefty, Obama was a tyrant, Clinton is a world-historical evil power-hungry dictator-in-waiting.
Carry on, y’all. See ya on the flip side, assuming there is one.
GovTrack thinks Warren is an extreme lefty.
Elizabeth Warren is an extraordinarily qualified academic in economics, whose research led her to the conclusion that the financial sector was rogering the American public.
She didn’t start there, she ended up there. Based on information, not prejudice or tribal affiliation.
She ended up there, remains there, and her policies follow from that.
She reliably voted for (R)’s until the mid-90’s because, in her own words, she believed they were more supportive of market economics. Which she supports and advocates.
As of the mid-90’s, she started voting (D), because she no longer believed that (R) policies were favorable to healthy markets.
The fact that she is considered to be a “lefty” is everything anybody needs to know about the curdled and dysfunctional state of American politics.
All of the folks who hear the name “Warren” and respond with either “lefty” or “Pocohantas” need to watch their @sses, because the banksters will be very happy to rob them blind. If that isn’t clear from the last 10 years, I don’t know what it would take to make it clear.
Not my circus. If you like the (R)’s, by all means hang your hat with the (R)’s.
When you get tired of beating your head against the wall, maybe quit beating your head against the wall.
That’s all I’m saying.
GovTrack thinks Warren is an extreme lefty.
Elizabeth Warren is an extraordinarily qualified academic in economics, whose research led her to the conclusion that the financial sector was rogering the American public.
She didn’t start there, she ended up there. Based on information, not prejudice or tribal affiliation.
She ended up there, remains there, and her policies follow from that.
She reliably voted for (R)’s until the mid-90’s because, in her own words, she believed they were more supportive of market economics. Which she supports and advocates.
As of the mid-90’s, she started voting (D), because she no longer believed that (R) policies were favorable to healthy markets.
The fact that she is considered to be a “lefty” is everything anybody needs to know about the curdled and dysfunctional state of American politics.
All of the folks who hear the name “Warren” and respond with either “lefty” or “Pocohantas” need to watch their @sses, because the banksters will be very happy to rob them blind. If that isn’t clear from the last 10 years, I don’t know what it would take to make it clear.
Not my circus. If you like the (R)’s, by all means hang your hat with the (R)’s.
When you get tired of beating your head against the wall, maybe quit beating your head against the wall.
That’s all I’m saying.
She reliably voted for (R)’s until the mid-90’s because, in her own words, she believed they were more supportive of market economics. Which she supports and advocates.
As of the mid-90’s, she started voting (D), because she no longer believed that (R) policies were favorable to healthy markets.
Too many people cannot tell oligarchs from supporters of free, fair, open, and competitive markets (to the extent that they are applicable to a given situation). And if free, fair, open, and competitive markets “naturally” lead to oligarchy, who needs them (besides oligarchs)?
That is but one of the many problems with politics in today’s United States of America.
She reliably voted for (R)’s until the mid-90’s because, in her own words, she believed they were more supportive of market economics. Which she supports and advocates.
As of the mid-90’s, she started voting (D), because she no longer believed that (R) policies were favorable to healthy markets.
Too many people cannot tell oligarchs from supporters of free, fair, open, and competitive markets (to the extent that they are applicable to a given situation). And if free, fair, open, and competitive markets “naturally” lead to oligarchy, who needs them (besides oligarchs)?
That is but one of the many problems with politics in today’s United States of America.
Russell: how did a cadre of reactionaries and randian weirdos get control of the party in the first place? they figured it out. folks who want their party back need to do the same.
the alternative is to be unrepresented at the national level.
Actually no. The alternative is that we have the nut cases running the country half the time. Because if that is the only alternative major party (i.e. one which can get more than 20% of the votes), then that is what we will see.
Pro bono: More importantly, how did they get control of the country?
See above. The country, for better or worse, has a habit of switching out parties in power. For the Presidency, they have done so (with a single exception) every 8 years or less since WW II — i.e. for the entire lifetimes of the overwhelming majority of voters.
For Congress, less often but the majority has generally been slim. What that means is that, when the voters decide it is time for a change there, it is going to be the other major party that gets in. The number of independents and third party members in Congress is going to remain miniscule.
All of which is to say, it’s everybody’s problem. Whether or not it is your party that has the problem.
Russell: how did a cadre of reactionaries and randian weirdos get control of the party in the first place? they figured it out. folks who want their party back need to do the same.
the alternative is to be unrepresented at the national level.
Actually no. The alternative is that we have the nut cases running the country half the time. Because if that is the only alternative major party (i.e. one which can get more than 20% of the votes), then that is what we will see.
Pro bono: More importantly, how did they get control of the country?
See above. The country, for better or worse, has a habit of switching out parties in power. For the Presidency, they have done so (with a single exception) every 8 years or less since WW II — i.e. for the entire lifetimes of the overwhelming majority of voters.
For Congress, less often but the majority has generally been slim. What that means is that, when the voters decide it is time for a change there, it is going to be the other major party that gets in. The number of independents and third party members in Congress is going to remain miniscule.
All of which is to say, it’s everybody’s problem. Whether or not it is your party that has the problem.
As of the mid-90’s, she started voting (D), because she no longer believed that (R) policies were favorable to healthy markets.
It can take a while for people to realize that, in spite of tribal affinity, they are being lied to and propagandized. Most would rather die in agony than give up their cherished delusions.
“may all their wishes come true!”
As of the mid-90’s, she started voting (D), because she no longer believed that (R) policies were favorable to healthy markets.
It can take a while for people to realize that, in spite of tribal affinity, they are being lied to and propagandized. Most would rather die in agony than give up their cherished delusions.
“may all their wishes come true!”
As the American West (Census Bureau’s western region) has shift towards the Democrats over the last 15-25 years, state-level Republicans there have been protected by the safety-valve of ballot initiatives. So you get a red state like Arizona passing independent redistricting commissions, higher minimum wages, and renewable energy mandates by initiative rather than through the normal legislative channel. (Side note: every state in the US that has adopted recreational marijuana has done so by means of a ballot initiative.)
I assert that one reasonable way to measure the overall electorate (at least in the West) is to look at the kinds of ballot initiatives that are passed. In the 1990s, there was a trend towards things like (a) tax restrictions, (b) outlawing same-sex marriage, and (c) restrictions on abortions. In the 2000s and 2010s, there has been a dramatic shift towards more progressive matters like renewable power, higher minimum wage, and legal access to marijuana.
As the American West (Census Bureau’s western region) has shift towards the Democrats over the last 15-25 years, state-level Republicans there have been protected by the safety-valve of ballot initiatives. So you get a red state like Arizona passing independent redistricting commissions, higher minimum wages, and renewable energy mandates by initiative rather than through the normal legislative channel. (Side note: every state in the US that has adopted recreational marijuana has done so by means of a ballot initiative.)
I assert that one reasonable way to measure the overall electorate (at least in the West) is to look at the kinds of ballot initiatives that are passed. In the 1990s, there was a trend towards things like (a) tax restrictions, (b) outlawing same-sex marriage, and (c) restrictions on abortions. In the 2000s and 2010s, there has been a dramatic shift towards more progressive matters like renewable power, higher minimum wage, and legal access to marijuana.
you know, you could always just register as a (D).
. . .
the (R) you remember is now the (D)’s. at the national level, anyway.
come on over.
As noted, I think the fact that the nut cases have taken over the GOP is everybody’s problem. It won’t get solved by just joining the Democrats.
If there is a new party on offer, one which has a realistic chance to become a new second party, I’d go for it. (Reluctantly, because I’m a sentimentalist. But I’d go.) However, until that happens, the best choice on offer is to remain a Republican, so as to be able to vote in the primaries for folks that are at least halfway sane. And, when that primary vote doesn’t prevail (which happens all too often), vote for the D in the general election.
And that’s what I have been doing. The last Republican I could bring myself to vote for for President in a general election was Bob Dole. Which was quite a while ago. (Romney might have been possible, had he not clearly chosen to embrace insanity in pursuit of the prize. Maybe even McCain, if he had still been in 2008 the man he had been in 2000. But they hadn’t.)
More local elections have offered more viable GOP options. Some of whom have made it thru the primaries. Even at the state level in California — which is to say, they finished second in the “top two” primary. The R after their name has still kept them down in the general, but at least they have been able to demonstrate that sanity has not quite totally left the party.
you know, you could always just register as a (D).
. . .
the (R) you remember is now the (D)’s. at the national level, anyway.
come on over.
As noted, I think the fact that the nut cases have taken over the GOP is everybody’s problem. It won’t get solved by just joining the Democrats.
If there is a new party on offer, one which has a realistic chance to become a new second party, I’d go for it. (Reluctantly, because I’m a sentimentalist. But I’d go.) However, until that happens, the best choice on offer is to remain a Republican, so as to be able to vote in the primaries for folks that are at least halfway sane. And, when that primary vote doesn’t prevail (which happens all too often), vote for the D in the general election.
And that’s what I have been doing. The last Republican I could bring myself to vote for for President in a general election was Bob Dole. Which was quite a while ago. (Romney might have been possible, had he not clearly chosen to embrace insanity in pursuit of the prize. Maybe even McCain, if he had still been in 2008 the man he had been in 2000. But they hadn’t.)
More local elections have offered more viable GOP options. Some of whom have made it thru the primaries. Even at the state level in California — which is to say, they finished second in the “top two” primary. The R after their name has still kept them down in the general, but at least they have been able to demonstrate that sanity has not quite totally left the party.
The alternative is that we have the nut cases running the country
I guess I meant the alternative for you, personally.
However, until that happens, the best choice on offer is to remain a Republican, so as to be able to vote in the primaries for folks that are at least halfway sane.
Can’t disagree with this. Sounds like you’re fighting the good fight and taking one for the team, which is to say, the country.
I appreciate your willingness to put up with it. Carry on, and best of luck.
The alternative is that we have the nut cases running the country
I guess I meant the alternative for you, personally.
However, until that happens, the best choice on offer is to remain a Republican, so as to be able to vote in the primaries for folks that are at least halfway sane.
Can’t disagree with this. Sounds like you’re fighting the good fight and taking one for the team, which is to say, the country.
I appreciate your willingness to put up with it. Carry on, and best of luck.
I assert that one reasonable way to measure the overall electorate (at least in the West) is to look at the kinds of ballot initiatives that are passed.
I don’t disagree with this.
I’d actually go further and say that (R) representation at the national level is profoundly out of alignment with the actual populations they represent.
The question is how to get them the hell out of power.
I personally have no particular levers to bring to bear, other than occasionally supporting candidates in other states that seem reasonable, to me. My representation is, famously, a pack of leftist revolutionaries.
That last part was a joke.
If you live somewhere that is represented at the national level by a (R), you can make a dent.
Go for it.
I assert that one reasonable way to measure the overall electorate (at least in the West) is to look at the kinds of ballot initiatives that are passed.
I don’t disagree with this.
I’d actually go further and say that (R) representation at the national level is profoundly out of alignment with the actual populations they represent.
The question is how to get them the hell out of power.
I personally have no particular levers to bring to bear, other than occasionally supporting candidates in other states that seem reasonable, to me. My representation is, famously, a pack of leftist revolutionaries.
That last part was a joke.
If you live somewhere that is represented at the national level by a (R), you can make a dent.
Go for it.
Here’s hoping Pocahontas scalps John Smith and cuts his nuts off:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/whitefish-puerto-rico-utility-contract
Conservative principles spreading throughout government like measles through a Lakota settlement.
Here’s hoping Pocahontas scalps John Smith and cuts his nuts off:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/whitefish-puerto-rico-utility-contract
Conservative principles spreading throughout government like measles through a Lakota settlement.
what once were vices are now habits.
what once were vices are now habits.
I was about to congratulate you, russell, on being the modern Martial or Horace, but then I looked it up and saw I should be congratulating the Doobie Brothers instead!
I was about to congratulate you, russell, on being the modern Martial or Horace, but then I looked it up and saw I should be congratulating the Doobie Brothers instead!
hey, the count’s link made me think of zinke, which made me think of this bill which was forwarded through the House Natural Resources Committee a couple of weeks ago.
it would prevent the POTUS from creating any national monument larger than 85,000 acres. states or local municipalities could veto anything larger than 10,000.
living here in the cramped northeast, those sound like pretty big patches of land. however, every park in this list is half a million acres or more.
death valley, yellowstone, grand canyon, yosemite, joshua tree, glacier bay, everglades, smoky mountain, sequoia, zion, canyonlands.
too big. under this law, they could not be created.
even dinky little katahdin waters in woods up in maine is too big.
zinke says no existing park will be eliminated, although some may be reduced in size, and/or opened to more commercial use.
god forbid we should leave anything the hell alone.
hey, the count’s link made me think of zinke, which made me think of this bill which was forwarded through the House Natural Resources Committee a couple of weeks ago.
it would prevent the POTUS from creating any national monument larger than 85,000 acres. states or local municipalities could veto anything larger than 10,000.
living here in the cramped northeast, those sound like pretty big patches of land. however, every park in this list is half a million acres or more.
death valley, yellowstone, grand canyon, yosemite, joshua tree, glacier bay, everglades, smoky mountain, sequoia, zion, canyonlands.
too big. under this law, they could not be created.
even dinky little katahdin waters in woods up in maine is too big.
zinke says no existing park will be eliminated, although some may be reduced in size, and/or opened to more commercial use.
god forbid we should leave anything the hell alone.
god forbid we should leave anything the hell alone.
The creations of the parks were cases of not “leave anything the hell alone.” 🙂
god forbid we should leave anything the hell alone.
The creations of the parks were cases of not “leave anything the hell alone.” 🙂
living here in the cramped northeast, those sound like pretty big patches of land.
For years, the Army proposed using eminent domain to take a section of Colorado to expand the Pinon Canyon tank maneuver area. The area they want is slightly larger than the state of Massachusetts. The plans are currently on hold, but the Army hasn’t ever killed the idea officially.
too big. under this law, they could not be created.
No, under this law they couldn’t be created by the President acting alone. Congress would still be able to create any of them. Only Congress has ever been able to create a national park. It’s fairly clear that the intent at the time the Antiquities Act was originally passed was to allow the President to act quickly on small areas. The massive national monuments are a quite recent development.
I’m waiting for Trump to sign an executive order reclassifying parts of some national monuments back to national forests or whatever, and for it to get to court. Current law says nothing about “uncreating” national monuments.
living here in the cramped northeast, those sound like pretty big patches of land.
For years, the Army proposed using eminent domain to take a section of Colorado to expand the Pinon Canyon tank maneuver area. The area they want is slightly larger than the state of Massachusetts. The plans are currently on hold, but the Army hasn’t ever killed the idea officially.
too big. under this law, they could not be created.
No, under this law they couldn’t be created by the President acting alone. Congress would still be able to create any of them. Only Congress has ever been able to create a national park. It’s fairly clear that the intent at the time the Antiquities Act was originally passed was to allow the President to act quickly on small areas. The massive national monuments are a quite recent development.
I’m waiting for Trump to sign an executive order reclassifying parts of some national monuments back to national forests or whatever, and for it to get to court. Current law says nothing about “uncreating” national monuments.
“It can take a while for people to realize that, in spite of tribal affinity, they are being lied to and propagandized. Most would rather die in agony than give up their cherished delusions.”
Fill circle, it is laughable to the actual centrist in me that somehow your politicians are all honest and the other politicians all lie.
Who is NOT being lied to, is the question. Once that is cleared up tribalism becomes secondary.
Above hsh asks a good question, they all, all 25 years worth, lied. They all tried to do good stuff and bad. They all tried to get tbeir party reelected and in control.
That leaves us to figure it out ourselves, thus the grand variety of opinions.
“It can take a while for people to realize that, in spite of tribal affinity, they are being lied to and propagandized. Most would rather die in agony than give up their cherished delusions.”
Fill circle, it is laughable to the actual centrist in me that somehow your politicians are all honest and the other politicians all lie.
Who is NOT being lied to, is the question. Once that is cleared up tribalism becomes secondary.
Above hsh asks a good question, they all, all 25 years worth, lied. They all tried to do good stuff and bad. They all tried to get tbeir party reelected and in control.
That leaves us to figure it out ourselves, thus the grand variety of opinions.
@russell,
With absolutely no disrespect, your comment at 1:28 is why many western politicians are concerned about letting people from out east have much of a voice on the public lands in the West. A national park, a national monument, a national forest/grassland, and a national wilderness area are all different things, can be created in different ways, with very different amounts of public input, and with vastly different restrictions on use of the designated land and sometimes the surrounding areas.
I can introduce you to progressive western Democrats who feel the federal government’s power over and responsibility towards western public lands needs to be changed.
@russell,
With absolutely no disrespect, your comment at 1:28 is why many western politicians are concerned about letting people from out east have much of a voice on the public lands in the West. A national park, a national monument, a national forest/grassland, and a national wilderness area are all different things, can be created in different ways, with very different amounts of public input, and with vastly different restrictions on use of the designated land and sometimes the surrounding areas.
I can introduce you to progressive western Democrats who feel the federal government’s power over and responsibility towards western public lands needs to be changed.
I actually do get that Michael, and FWIW I doubt that either I or my elected representatives have all that much power over public lands in the West.
All of that said, my point was to contrast the size of what would be permitted with the size of existing parks and monuments that many folks are already familiar with.
And which would likely not exist, and would not have been allowed to exist, under the new law.
Lastly, I can assure you that it isn’t just folks out West who are affected by federal policies governing the use of natural resources. Ask anyone in New England who fishes for a living.
I actually do get that Michael, and FWIW I doubt that either I or my elected representatives have all that much power over public lands in the West.
All of that said, my point was to contrast the size of what would be permitted with the size of existing parks and monuments that many folks are already familiar with.
And which would likely not exist, and would not have been allowed to exist, under the new law.
Lastly, I can assure you that it isn’t just folks out West who are affected by federal policies governing the use of natural resources. Ask anyone in New England who fishes for a living.
Neysa Tonks
Neysa Tonks
All of that said, my point was to contrast the size of what would be permitted with the size of existing parks and monuments that many folks are already familiar with. And which would likely not exist, and would not have been allowed to exist, under the new law.
The bill says nothing about national parks, national forests, or national wilderness areas. It only mentions national monuments, and specifically, the President’s authority to unilaterally recategorize existing federal lands above a certain size to monument status. If the Antiquities Act had included the same restriction from the beginning, it would have had no effect on the creation of the parks and wilderness areas that exist today.
Restrictions on the President’s power to make such designations is not new. After Jackson Hole National Monument was created in 1943, Congress changed the law so that no new national monuments could be declared in Wyoming without Congressional consent. After Jimmy Carter used the authority to create several large monuments in Alaska, Congress changed the law again to require consent for any monument status changes greater than 5,000 acres in Alaska.
It is quite likely that smaller versions of most of the recent large monuments would have been approved by state and local governments. If the bill passes, I will be looking forward to the first court case where a state approves a monument and the local government does not. There’s a lot of case history that only the state can delegate any sort of sovereignty to the local governments within its borders.
All of that said, my point was to contrast the size of what would be permitted with the size of existing parks and monuments that many folks are already familiar with. And which would likely not exist, and would not have been allowed to exist, under the new law.
The bill says nothing about national parks, national forests, or national wilderness areas. It only mentions national monuments, and specifically, the President’s authority to unilaterally recategorize existing federal lands above a certain size to monument status. If the Antiquities Act had included the same restriction from the beginning, it would have had no effect on the creation of the parks and wilderness areas that exist today.
Restrictions on the President’s power to make such designations is not new. After Jackson Hole National Monument was created in 1943, Congress changed the law so that no new national monuments could be declared in Wyoming without Congressional consent. After Jimmy Carter used the authority to create several large monuments in Alaska, Congress changed the law again to require consent for any monument status changes greater than 5,000 acres in Alaska.
It is quite likely that smaller versions of most of the recent large monuments would have been approved by state and local governments. If the bill passes, I will be looking forward to the first court case where a state approves a monument and the local government does not. There’s a lot of case history that only the state can delegate any sort of sovereignty to the local governments within its borders.
wj wrote:
“However, until that happens, the best choice on offer is to remain a Republican, so as to be able to vote in the primaries for folks that are at least halfway sane.”
The halfway sane, well, halfway not clinically and criminally psychotic in a normal world, are leaving the field and handing the entire mess to batshit, vermin, subhuman rumpsters and the right wing filth in the slavery caucus in the House.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/flake-says-he-will-not-run-for-senate-again
I don’t believe in electoral politics any longer.
I believe in savage retribution. Not on an individual basis. Not lame stuff like Antifa and Black Lives Matter, nor the Democratic Party.
I mean a tidal wave of bloody rage that takes everyone and everything off its foundations and sows the political landscape with salt and fire.
No platform, no issues.
Just shocking, sudden overwhelming vengeance.
wj wrote:
“However, until that happens, the best choice on offer is to remain a Republican, so as to be able to vote in the primaries for folks that are at least halfway sane.”
The halfway sane, well, halfway not clinically and criminally psychotic in a normal world, are leaving the field and handing the entire mess to batshit, vermin, subhuman rumpsters and the right wing filth in the slavery caucus in the House.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/flake-says-he-will-not-run-for-senate-again
I don’t believe in electoral politics any longer.
I believe in savage retribution. Not on an individual basis. Not lame stuff like Antifa and Black Lives Matter, nor the Democratic Party.
I mean a tidal wave of bloody rage that takes everyone and everything off its foundations and sows the political landscape with salt and fire.
No platform, no issues.
Just shocking, sudden overwhelming vengeance.
The bill says nothing about national parks, national forests, or national wilderness areas.
All good. I stand corrected.
The bill says nothing about national parks, national forests, or national wilderness areas.
All good. I stand corrected.
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2017/10/24/just-words-4/
Yup.
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2017/10/24/just-words-4/
Yup.
Jordan Mclldoon
Jordan Mclldoon
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/the-trump-corker-feud-resumes/
Double yup.
Fuck ’em all.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/the-trump-corker-feud-resumes/
Double yup.
Fuck ’em all.
http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a13085304/f-35-oxygen-pilot/
I’m glad rump managed to arm-wrestle a buck or two off each of private sector firm Lockheed Martin’s boondoggles.
If as many guns misfired as this flying Fiat does, the murder/suicide rate in America would plummet.
I understand the F-35 uses the Edsel chassis.
I guess none of their top managememnt’s executive team and engineers require the CHIP program for their kids.
http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a13085304/f-35-oxygen-pilot/
I’m glad rump managed to arm-wrestle a buck or two off each of private sector firm Lockheed Martin’s boondoggles.
If as many guns misfired as this flying Fiat does, the murder/suicide rate in America would plummet.
I understand the F-35 uses the Edsel chassis.
I guess none of their top managememnt’s executive team and engineers require the CHIP program for their kids.
I understand the F-35 uses the Edsel chassis.
No way. The Edsel flopped in the market. But its engineering was superior. Probably the best of its era.
The F-35 is, if anything, the opposite. Its sales are great. But its engineering? Underwhelming.
I understand the F-35 uses the Edsel chassis.
No way. The Edsel flopped in the market. But its engineering was superior. Probably the best of its era.
The F-35 is, if anything, the opposite. Its sales are great. But its engineering? Underwhelming.
More John Cole, former republican youth and Redstate Board member:
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2017/10/24/the-reason-i-am-tired-of-this-lip-service-from-the-gop-bullshit-artists/
More John Cole, former republican youth and Redstate Board member:
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2017/10/24/the-reason-i-am-tired-of-this-lip-service-from-the-gop-bullshit-artists/
I don’t believe in electoral politics any longer.
An opinion shared by large swaths of the GOP rank and file and as expressed in the public policies adopted by their political leadership.
To wit: Aggressive gerrymander
Voter suppression laws
The last big political realignment was the Solid South fleeing into the arms of the GOP. This temporarily reversed the decline of the GOP into irrelevance after the Goldwater flameout and the embarrassment of Dick Nixon.
The Reagan ascendancy was the high water mark.
Since then, it has been all smoke and mirrors – cf Bush v. Gore.
The split will be rural/urban as rural areas empty out (thanks, unconstrained technology!) to be replaced by an opiod dystopia with, thanks to the anomalies of the Electoral College, will continue to hold outsized political power.
As the GOP increasingly has to resort to political trickery to retain power despite their minority status, the center shall not hold and the precious reed of democracy will bend and then break due to the accelerating rightward shift into crypto-fascist religion driven racist xenophobia of the GOP base and the political superstructure they will drag along with them.
They know something their leaders do not. They are about to lose. Big Time.
The democratic response should be one of unbending scorched earth. You gerrymander Dems out of office in Wisconsin? Goodby to ANY GOP representative from California. You artificially create a Pennsylvania Congressional delegation that does not reflect the political outlook of the majority? Goodbye, upstate New York Congresscritters. You repress the black vote in Texas? There won’t be a precinct polling place anywhere near a GOP leaning district in Las Vegas.
We may have to “go to the mattresses” but that’s the way things have to be if democracy is to survive.
This will be the next great political realignment. Count (cough, cough) on it.
I don’t believe in electoral politics any longer.
An opinion shared by large swaths of the GOP rank and file and as expressed in the public policies adopted by their political leadership.
To wit: Aggressive gerrymander
Voter suppression laws
The last big political realignment was the Solid South fleeing into the arms of the GOP. This temporarily reversed the decline of the GOP into irrelevance after the Goldwater flameout and the embarrassment of Dick Nixon.
The Reagan ascendancy was the high water mark.
Since then, it has been all smoke and mirrors – cf Bush v. Gore.
The split will be rural/urban as rural areas empty out (thanks, unconstrained technology!) to be replaced by an opiod dystopia with, thanks to the anomalies of the Electoral College, will continue to hold outsized political power.
As the GOP increasingly has to resort to political trickery to retain power despite their minority status, the center shall not hold and the precious reed of democracy will bend and then break due to the accelerating rightward shift into crypto-fascist religion driven racist xenophobia of the GOP base and the political superstructure they will drag along with them.
They know something their leaders do not. They are about to lose. Big Time.
The democratic response should be one of unbending scorched earth. You gerrymander Dems out of office in Wisconsin? Goodby to ANY GOP representative from California. You artificially create a Pennsylvania Congressional delegation that does not reflect the political outlook of the majority? Goodbye, upstate New York Congresscritters. You repress the black vote in Texas? There won’t be a precinct polling place anywhere near a GOP leaning district in Las Vegas.
We may have to “go to the mattresses” but that’s the way things have to be if democracy is to survive.
This will be the next great political realignment. Count (cough, cough) on it.
Bobby, that stuff in your next to last paragraph isn’t really necessary. Rather soon, the charge to the far right will exceed the ability of anybody to overcome via gerrymandering. Even with the baked-in advantages from the electoral college.
No, it won’t happen instantly. But probably faster than you can implement your proposal.
Bobby, that stuff in your next to last paragraph isn’t really necessary. Rather soon, the charge to the far right will exceed the ability of anybody to overcome via gerrymandering. Even with the baked-in advantages from the electoral college.
No, it won’t happen instantly. But probably faster than you can implement your proposal.
the charge to the far right will exceed the ability of anybody to overcome via gerrymandering
Trump was elected by less than 19% of Americans.
the gerrymandering is built into the Constitution, we call it “the Electoral College”. it’s one of the many ways the founders fucked up.
the charge to the far right will exceed the ability of anybody to overcome via gerrymandering
Trump was elected by less than 19% of Americans.
the gerrymandering is built into the Constitution, we call it “the Electoral College”. it’s one of the many ways the founders fucked up.
Yup.
Basically, I think it kind of sucks to be a (R) right now. Even with the White House, majorities in both houses of Congress, and a solid presence in the SCOTUS and the judiciary generally.
Because “the base” is insane, and if you want to hold national office as a (R), you have to kiss up to the base.
So some folks are just going to call it a day. Who needs that crap?
it’s one of the many ways the founders fucked up.
As far as I can tell, the founders did not want a democracy, and were frankly suspicious of democracy per se. Certainly a large number of them were.
They wanted a republic. And specifically, a republic governed by an elite, which meant people like them. White men with property.
Not the only factor that contributed to the establishment of the Electoral College, but a significant one.
Yup.
Basically, I think it kind of sucks to be a (R) right now. Even with the White House, majorities in both houses of Congress, and a solid presence in the SCOTUS and the judiciary generally.
Because “the base” is insane, and if you want to hold national office as a (R), you have to kiss up to the base.
So some folks are just going to call it a day. Who needs that crap?
it’s one of the many ways the founders fucked up.
As far as I can tell, the founders did not want a democracy, and were frankly suspicious of democracy per se. Certainly a large number of them were.
They wanted a republic. And specifically, a republic governed by an elite, which meant people like them. White men with property.
Not the only factor that contributed to the establishment of the Electoral College, but a significant one.
so Presidential.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/01/28/upshot/donald-trump-twitter-insults.html
so Presidential.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/01/28/upshot/donald-trump-twitter-insults.html
Corporate America designed a Christian robot, pierced with the fake commercial stigmata of the only Americans ensouled by the randian republican God Mammon, the Corporations, and who like a sexless android Christ wielding the scepter of Dagney Taggart in one hand and the reliquaried diseased phallus of Tom Delay in the other, and programmed for devotional smugness, lurched into the temple of the people, and welcomed all of them who bought and sold in that temple and opened fake accounts and sold fake insurance in thy names in that temple, and helped them to set up the tables of the moneychangers (changing our money into theirs) and the seats of them that hosted vicious corporate raptors, And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of soul-less corporate corruption; and my conservative principles shall spread throughout my house, so that it shall be remade a den of thieves.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/pence-breaks-tie-to-nix-obama-era-consumer-arbitration-rule/ar-AAu0pOl
Pass the opioids to the androids and load the clips.
Corporate America designed a Christian robot, pierced with the fake commercial stigmata of the only Americans ensouled by the randian republican God Mammon, the Corporations, and who like a sexless android Christ wielding the scepter of Dagney Taggart in one hand and the reliquaried diseased phallus of Tom Delay in the other, and programmed for devotional smugness, lurched into the temple of the people, and welcomed all of them who bought and sold in that temple and opened fake accounts and sold fake insurance in thy names in that temple, and helped them to set up the tables of the moneychangers (changing our money into theirs) and the seats of them that hosted vicious corporate raptors, And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of soul-less corporate corruption; and my conservative principles shall spread throughout my house, so that it shall be remade a den of thieves.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/pence-breaks-tie-to-nix-obama-era-consumer-arbitration-rule/ar-AAu0pOl
Pass the opioids to the androids and load the clips.
Jessica Klymchuk
Jessica Klymchuk
The new rule covers Equifax’s ass while letting them off the hook for not covering ours from rumpian/russian hackers:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/congress-votes-disallow-consumers-suing-033159253.html
The new rule covers Equifax’s ass while letting them off the hook for not covering ours from rumpian/russian hackers:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/congress-votes-disallow-consumers-suing-033159253.html
They wanted a republic. And specifically, a republic governed by an elite, which meant people like them. White men with property.
Even then, they screwed up, at least if you measure their decision by the result of the last presidential election. They got the white part, but not the elite part. Just the sort of rabble-rousing boob they were trying to avoid having as president is what we got.
But I suppose it would be tough to foresee, in the late 18th century, what the US has become in terms of population distribution among 50 states.
They wanted a republic. And specifically, a republic governed by an elite, which meant people like them. White men with property.
Even then, they screwed up, at least if you measure their decision by the result of the last presidential election. They got the white part, but not the elite part. Just the sort of rabble-rousing boob they were trying to avoid having as president is what we got.
But I suppose it would be tough to foresee, in the late 18th century, what the US has become in terms of population distribution among 50 states.
it’s one of the many ways the founders fucked up.
It is one of the religious transcendental delusions of liberalism to believe that the proper perfect forms and practices of governance will overcome human character and history. And make politics, everyday social interactions, persuasion and compromise and the satisfaction of constituent needs, irrelevant and unnecessary.
Weapons of the weak and agency and complicity are the facts on the ground. As a revolutionary, I accept and understand that the oppressed don’t want to starve, get beaten or die, but that remains a choice, and even the most oppressive regime must provide a minimal level of comfort to avoid suicidal riotous constituents.
Too far afield, too digressive. Shorter, I don’t look very much or care very much about forms, institutions and structures. Power is everywhere, pretty much evenly distributed, but exercised unevenly, by preference, self-restraint, and ignorance.
The Electoral College is not the problem. You don’t like it, moving to a small-pop state is only one of many options.
it’s one of the many ways the founders fucked up.
It is one of the religious transcendental delusions of liberalism to believe that the proper perfect forms and practices of governance will overcome human character and history. And make politics, everyday social interactions, persuasion and compromise and the satisfaction of constituent needs, irrelevant and unnecessary.
Weapons of the weak and agency and complicity are the facts on the ground. As a revolutionary, I accept and understand that the oppressed don’t want to starve, get beaten or die, but that remains a choice, and even the most oppressive regime must provide a minimal level of comfort to avoid suicidal riotous constituents.
Too far afield, too digressive. Shorter, I don’t look very much or care very much about forms, institutions and structures. Power is everywhere, pretty much evenly distributed, but exercised unevenly, by preference, self-restraint, and ignorance.
The Electoral College is not the problem. You don’t like it, moving to a small-pop state is only one of many options.
throw a few more on the Trafficking pile:
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/crime/article179538886.html
throw a few more on the Trafficking pile:
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/crime/article179538886.html
“YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE BUT YOUR CHAINS” is the fact on the ground.
Everything else you have, are, care about including what and who you love and your life involves complicity and cooperation with an evil oppressive system. There is absolutely no possibility of anything good there.
“YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE BUT YOUR CHAINS” is the fact on the ground.
Everything else you have, are, care about including what and who you love and your life involves complicity and cooperation with an evil oppressive system. There is absolutely no possibility of anything good there.
“But I suppose it would be tough to foresee, in the late 18th century, what the US has become in terms of population distribution among 50 states.”
If Constitutional originalists has prevailed, there wouldn’t be 50 states.
Constitutional originalists, like the spiritualist at the head of the table during a seance, can divine precisely what the Founders were thinking and intended 230 years ago regarding rights, neither adding nor subtracting from what the Founders divined, AND as well imbue those Founders with infinite foresight into the future regarding whatever transpires as this thing called history unfolds.
If the Constitution and the Bill of Rights had instead been written 2300 years ago, Gorsuch and company would still justify semi-automatic weapons in the hands of the citizenry based on slingshots instead of muskets and we would still have real live Congresspeople who believe the Last Supper featured steaks carved from the stegosaurus the Apostles rode in on.
We are founding as we live in real time. Martin Luther King was a Founder. Susan B Anthony was a Founder. Abraham Lincoln was a Founder.
That two of them were shot in the head is merely evidence of what happens to Founders-come-lately, as they are hazed by originalists.
Founding didn’t stop in 1776 because Jesse Helms, John Wilkes Booth, and Robert Mercer, all assassins one way or another, say so.
“But I suppose it would be tough to foresee, in the late 18th century, what the US has become in terms of population distribution among 50 states.”
If Constitutional originalists has prevailed, there wouldn’t be 50 states.
Constitutional originalists, like the spiritualist at the head of the table during a seance, can divine precisely what the Founders were thinking and intended 230 years ago regarding rights, neither adding nor subtracting from what the Founders divined, AND as well imbue those Founders with infinite foresight into the future regarding whatever transpires as this thing called history unfolds.
If the Constitution and the Bill of Rights had instead been written 2300 years ago, Gorsuch and company would still justify semi-automatic weapons in the hands of the citizenry based on slingshots instead of muskets and we would still have real live Congresspeople who believe the Last Supper featured steaks carved from the stegosaurus the Apostles rode in on.
We are founding as we live in real time. Martin Luther King was a Founder. Susan B Anthony was a Founder. Abraham Lincoln was a Founder.
That two of them were shot in the head is merely evidence of what happens to Founders-come-lately, as they are hazed by originalists.
Founding didn’t stop in 1776 because Jesse Helms, John Wilkes Booth, and Robert Mercer, all assassins one way or another, say so.
There is absolutely no possibility of anything good there.
riiiiiight
There is absolutely no possibility of anything good there.
riiiiiight
Please, please lock up Hillary Clinton.
Then we can get on with the cataclysm republican America fucking deserves.
Please, please lock up Hillary Clinton.
Then we can get on with the cataclysm republican America fucking deserves.
We are founding as we live in real time. Martin Luther King was a Founder. Susan B Anthony was a Founder. Abraham Lincoln was a Founder.
This is great. I’m certainly going to steal it…
It’s like adulthood: it’s not a milestone, or a moment, it’s a process, never-ending.
We are founding as we live in real time. Martin Luther King was a Founder. Susan B Anthony was a Founder. Abraham Lincoln was a Founder.
This is great. I’m certainly going to steal it…
It’s like adulthood: it’s not a milestone, or a moment, it’s a process, never-ending.
Chainsaw accidents in the state-level laboratories (pronounce that word like Boris Karloff did) of America:
http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a13085898/human-body-part-sales-deregulated/
Because in one state enclosed by imaginary lines on a map it’s OK to dismember those corpses by chainsaw, whereas in another, where humans are completely different on account of the relative values held by folks who believe in universal values, you can shove a stick of dynamite up a corpse’s tush without permission.
Who is to say which is better?
Chainsaw accidents in the state-level laboratories (pronounce that word like Boris Karloff did) of America:
http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a13085898/human-body-part-sales-deregulated/
Because in one state enclosed by imaginary lines on a map it’s OK to dismember those corpses by chainsaw, whereas in another, where humans are completely different on account of the relative values held by folks who believe in universal values, you can shove a stick of dynamite up a corpse’s tush without permission.
Who is to say which is better?
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2017/10/flake
The only difference between so-called mainstream republicans and rump is the former fuck us up the ass while telling us soothingly this is righteous, pious God showing us how to relax, while rump fucks us up the ass and tells us we knew what we were getting into all along and he is going to give it to us hard and fast, loser.
Neither care if we call Uncle.
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2017/10/flake
The only difference between so-called mainstream republicans and rump is the former fuck us up the ass while telling us soothingly this is righteous, pious God showing us how to relax, while rump fucks us up the ass and tells us we knew what we were getting into all along and he is going to give it to us hard and fast, loser.
Neither care if we call Uncle.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/youtube-trumpkin-and-former-milo-intern-kills-his-own-dad-for-calling-him-a-nazi?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning
He was under consideration for a middling post at the rump/sessions Department of Justshit.
There are good people on both sides of the knife.
Hillary hadda been in on this. Lock her up.
I suppose now I’m going to ban knives.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/youtube-trumpkin-and-former-milo-intern-kills-his-own-dad-for-calling-him-a-nazi?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning
He was under consideration for a middling post at the rump/sessions Department of Justshit.
There are good people on both sides of the knife.
Hillary hadda been in on this. Lock her up.
I suppose now I’m going to ban knives.
we could just ban sons.
we could just ban sons.
Everything else you have, are, care about including what and who you love and your life involves complicity and cooperation with an evil oppressive system. There is absolutely no possibility of anything good there.
The rabid libertarian position in a nutshell. I guess not having to maintain a personal defense system against criminals isn’t a “good”. Nor being relieved of running extensive engineering and scientific tests before making any purchase, to be sure that you are getting what you are paying for, and nothing toxic included. Among numerous other things that government does — admittedly with varying levels of success.
Otherwise, what cleek said.
Everything else you have, are, care about including what and who you love and your life involves complicity and cooperation with an evil oppressive system. There is absolutely no possibility of anything good there.
The rabid libertarian position in a nutshell. I guess not having to maintain a personal defense system against criminals isn’t a “good”. Nor being relieved of running extensive engineering and scientific tests before making any purchase, to be sure that you are getting what you are paying for, and nothing toxic included. Among numerous other things that government does — admittedly with varying levels of success.
Otherwise, what cleek said.
Neither care if we call Uncle.
Is there a “safe word”?**
** A concept I would never have encountered, if I didn’t read a lot. Not part of my quite mundane real life.
Neither care if we call Uncle.
Is there a “safe word”?**
** A concept I would never have encountered, if I didn’t read a lot. Not part of my quite mundane real life.
Sure, wj. Whatever…
Sure, wj. Whatever…
The rabid libertarian position in a nutshell
Totally backwards.
I want everyone in governance, preferably wearing a uniform.
But we were talking about the Electoral College, the “I moved from Montana to San Francisco, and my vote got diluted. Not Fair” crowd. The system should make my preferences non-consequential crowd.
And those benefiting from Empire preening about their accomplishments and achievements, and claiming the system absolves them of responsibility. All Trump’s fault.
The rabid libertarian position in a nutshell
Totally backwards.
I want everyone in governance, preferably wearing a uniform.
But we were talking about the Electoral College, the “I moved from Montana to San Francisco, and my vote got diluted. Not Fair” crowd. The system should make my preferences non-consequential crowd.
And those benefiting from Empire preening about their accomplishments and achievements, and claiming the system absolves them of responsibility. All Trump’s fault.
when your model no longer bears any relation to reality, it’s time to abandon your model.
when your model no longer bears any relation to reality, it’s time to abandon your model.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/trumps-republican-collaborators-must-choose-country-or-party-2017-10-25?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
republicans want their robots to emulate them precisely.
My robot sings “get outta my face”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efJGDpCSrJY
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/trumps-republican-collaborators-must-choose-country-or-party-2017-10-25?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
republicans want their robots to emulate them precisely.
My robot sings “get outta my face”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efJGDpCSrJY
Maybe my robot, a many-armed Shiva crushing a dove in one hand, swinging a machete in another, a bumpstocked semi-automatic in another and a nuclear warhead in another, should be exponentially more like the NRA than one million NRAs:
via a Hullabaloo link:
https://www.salon.com/2017/10/25/in-the-gop-civil-war-theres-one-clear-winner-the-nra/
Maybe becoming more like the enemy and surpassing its ruthlessness exponentially in word and deed is the only path available to make room in this country for getting back to being ourselves again.
I learned yesterday that in the beginning Jeff Bezos’ favored name for what is now Amazon was “Relentless”. He was overruled by his mates.
I think “Relentless” should replace “Resist”.
Maybe my robot, a many-armed Shiva crushing a dove in one hand, swinging a machete in another, a bumpstocked semi-automatic in another and a nuclear warhead in another, should be exponentially more like the NRA than one million NRAs:
via a Hullabaloo link:
https://www.salon.com/2017/10/25/in-the-gop-civil-war-theres-one-clear-winner-the-nra/
Maybe becoming more like the enemy and surpassing its ruthlessness exponentially in word and deed is the only path available to make room in this country for getting back to being ourselves again.
I learned yesterday that in the beginning Jeff Bezos’ favored name for what is now Amazon was “Relentless”. He was overruled by his mates.
I think “Relentless” should replace “Resist”.
DJIA down 163 points as we speak.
rump tweets the DJIA day chart upside down, declares “fake” news, then tweets DJIA chart for the eight years spanning Obama’s Presidency, also upside down, and declares it the greatest bear market in recorded history.
Jeff Flake, Bob Corker and company shrug and say “well, yeah”.
DJIA down 163 points as we speak.
rump tweets the DJIA day chart upside down, declares “fake” news, then tweets DJIA chart for the eight years spanning Obama’s Presidency, also upside down, and declares it the greatest bear market in recorded history.
Jeff Flake, Bob Corker and company shrug and say “well, yeah”.
Fats. Aint that a shame….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8KJe8Ugtd8
Fats. Aint that a shame….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8KJe8Ugtd8
If the Constitution and the Bill of Rights had instead been written 2300 years ago, Gorsuch and company would still justify semi-automatic weapons in the hands of the citizenry based on slingshots instead of muskets[…]
Do NOT underestimate slingshots!
https://www.youtube.com/user/JoergSprave/videos
If the Constitution and the Bill of Rights had instead been written 2300 years ago, Gorsuch and company would still justify semi-automatic weapons in the hands of the citizenry based on slingshots instead of muskets[…]
Do NOT underestimate slingshots!
https://www.youtube.com/user/JoergSprave/videos
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/graham-stand-up-trump-but-trying-get-taxes-cut
For republican filth reluctant to put out in other ways, tax cuts are the new casting couch.
If Stalin had offered tax cuts, he wouldn’t have had to murder so many of his colleagues. They would have been putty in his hands.
Your average German on the street in the late 1930’s: “Yes, my Jewish neighbors disappeared and the last time I saw my kid’s Jewish teacher, she was being hustled off to the train station, but the Fuhrer is going to cut my taxes, so what do you want from me?”
Fuck you, republicans.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/graham-stand-up-trump-but-trying-get-taxes-cut
For republican filth reluctant to put out in other ways, tax cuts are the new casting couch.
If Stalin had offered tax cuts, he wouldn’t have had to murder so many of his colleagues. They would have been putty in his hands.
Your average German on the street in the late 1930’s: “Yes, my Jewish neighbors disappeared and the last time I saw my kid’s Jewish teacher, she was being hustled off to the train station, but the Fuhrer is going to cut my taxes, so what do you want from me?”
Fuck you, republicans.
rump sycophant, ersatz journalist, and “kind of a dick” Mark Halperin should have followed his hero’s lead and offered tax cuts to the women he was “pursuing relationships with” (a few dogs have pursued a relationship with my leg in the same manner) by pressing his tumescent crotch up against them.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/veteran-journalist-mark-halperin-accused-of-sexual-misconduct
He probably could have made it with the republican women.
“Is that a tax cut in your pocket, big boy, or are you happy to see me?”
It is well known that Roger Ailes would interview conservative women who wanted a job with FOX News to pursue their dream of faking journalism by having them close their eyes, and do the twirl while thinking about big tax cuts.
rump sycophant, ersatz journalist, and “kind of a dick” Mark Halperin should have followed his hero’s lead and offered tax cuts to the women he was “pursuing relationships with” (a few dogs have pursued a relationship with my leg in the same manner) by pressing his tumescent crotch up against them.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/veteran-journalist-mark-halperin-accused-of-sexual-misconduct
He probably could have made it with the republican women.
“Is that a tax cut in your pocket, big boy, or are you happy to see me?”
It is well known that Roger Ailes would interview conservative women who wanted a job with FOX News to pursue their dream of faking journalism by having them close their eyes, and do the twirl while thinking about big tax cuts.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/second-woman-accuses-george-hw-bush-of-groping
It’s the explanation in this one that burns: “To try to put people at ease, the president routinely tells the [Cop-a-feel] joke — and on occasion, he has patted women’s rears…”
https://www.thedailybeast.com/second-woman-accuses-george-hw-bush-of-groping
It’s the explanation in this one that burns: “To try to put people at ease, the president routinely tells the [Cop-a-feel] joke — and on occasion, he has patted women’s rears…”
speaking of rabid libertarians…
i’d like to hear one explain how faux-freedom fetishist, Rand Paul, can square his brand of shmibertarianism with Roy Moore’s brand of Christian Sharia.
speaking of rabid libertarians…
i’d like to hear one explain how faux-freedom fetishist, Rand Paul, can square his brand of shmibertarianism with Roy Moore’s brand of Christian Sharia.
You screw with republicans and they will threaten to kill you and your family:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/wilson-away-ongoing-threats
On the other hand, you shoot a republican like Steve Scalise and if you live through it, he’ll offer you more and bigger weapons of war for the next time around.
No limits.
You screw with republicans and they will threaten to kill you and your family:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/wilson-away-ongoing-threats
On the other hand, you shoot a republican like Steve Scalise and if you live through it, he’ll offer you more and bigger weapons of war for the next time around.
No limits.
Yeah, it’s the federal flood insurance program that entices the swamp-dwellers:
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2017/10/selling-florida-swampland
rump country:
http://www.news-press.com/story/news/politics/2016/11/08/election-night-results/93495738/
Fuck you, republicans.
Yeah, it’s the federal flood insurance program that entices the swamp-dwellers:
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2017/10/selling-florida-swampland
rump country:
http://www.news-press.com/story/news/politics/2016/11/08/election-night-results/93495738/
Fuck you, republicans.
Please jail Hillary Clinton! Hang the witch!
I’m begging you, filth, do it!
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/10/checking-in-with-alternative-facts-media.html
And then we can get on with what needs to be gotten on with in pigfucker republican America.
Please jail Hillary Clinton! Hang the witch!
I’m begging you, filth, do it!
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/10/checking-in-with-alternative-facts-media.html
And then we can get on with what needs to be gotten on with in pigfucker republican America.
Ed Gillespie has run a rumpian, flagrantly racist, white nationalist, confederate, homophobic campaign in Virginia on behalf of all racist, white nationalist, homophobic republicans, 63 million of them scuttling out from under the baseboards, in the country.
He’s found more ways to say “nigger” than even Lee Atwater dreamed of.
If he wins, all of the targets of his disgraceful, racist pigfucking, but typically republican campaign need to join the NRA and load up on weapons of war and ammo to defend themselves from the government violence that will follow.
Ed Gillespie has run a rumpian, flagrantly racist, white nationalist, confederate, homophobic campaign in Virginia on behalf of all racist, white nationalist, homophobic republicans, 63 million of them scuttling out from under the baseboards, in the country.
He’s found more ways to say “nigger” than even Lee Atwater dreamed of.
If he wins, all of the targets of his disgraceful, racist pigfucking, but typically republican campaign need to join the NRA and load up on weapons of war and ammo to defend themselves from the government violence that will follow.
George W. Bush followed rump in endorsing Gillespie.
That’s not weird shit at all
Of course.
George W. Bush followed rump in endorsing Gillespie.
That’s not weird shit at all
Of course.
i’d like to hear one explain how faux-freedom fetishist, Rand Paul, can square his brand of shmibertarianism with Roy Moore’s brand of Christian Sharia.
Libertarians would like an explaination too.
Moore has a passion for the Constitution in the sense that Roman Polanski has a passion for children’s issues —Popehat
Constitutional Conservatives for Defrocked Judges: Ted Cruz joins Rand Paul and Mike Lee in enthusiastically endorsing lawless jurist Roy Moore.
i’d like to hear one explain how faux-freedom fetishist, Rand Paul, can square his brand of shmibertarianism with Roy Moore’s brand of Christian Sharia.
Libertarians would like an explaination too.
Moore has a passion for the Constitution in the sense that Roman Polanski has a passion for children’s issues —Popehat
Constitutional Conservatives for Defrocked Judges: Ted Cruz joins Rand Paul and Mike Lee in enthusiastically endorsing lawless jurist Roy Moore.
i sometimes wander over to reason.com, to see what’s up in Libertariana. i usually find a couple of articles that seem like the product of a coherent ideology – they’re at least well-reasoned, given the tenets of libertarianism.
and then i look at the comments.
sheesh.
i sometimes wander over to reason.com, to see what’s up in Libertariana. i usually find a couple of articles that seem like the product of a coherent ideology – they’re at least well-reasoned, given the tenets of libertarianism.
and then i look at the comments.
sheesh.
You screw with republicans and they will threaten to kill you and your family
. . .
On the other hand, you shoot a republican like Steve Scalise and if you live through it, he’ll offer you more and bigger weapons of war for the next time around.
You just completely misunderstand. If it’s us buying and using weapons, that’s great because of the 2nd Amendment. But if it’s you using weapons against us, our devotion to “law and order” requires that we throw the book at you — and increase penalties from time to time, just for extra insurance.
See? Simple!
You screw with republicans and they will threaten to kill you and your family
. . .
On the other hand, you shoot a republican like Steve Scalise and if you live through it, he’ll offer you more and bigger weapons of war for the next time around.
You just completely misunderstand. If it’s us buying and using weapons, that’s great because of the 2nd Amendment. But if it’s you using weapons against us, our devotion to “law and order” requires that we throw the book at you — and increase penalties from time to time, just for extra insurance.
See? Simple!
and then i look at the comments.
sheesh.
The commenting culture went south at reason when they switched to threaded comments. Which seem to facilitate “your mamma” back and forths, trolling, snark, etc.
Aside from a couple of trolls, unlibertarian like comments are often for ironic effect and in group jokes. There’s a history to why references to “woodchippers” appear handles and comments.
and then i look at the comments.
sheesh.
The commenting culture went south at reason when they switched to threaded comments. Which seem to facilitate “your mamma” back and forths, trolling, snark, etc.
Aside from a couple of trolls, unlibertarian like comments are often for ironic effect and in group jokes. There’s a history to why references to “woodchippers” appear handles and comments.
Do NOT underestimate slingshots!
a good old sling will do some damage as well. takes some practice to be accurate, though.
apparently the folks in the balearic islands were the best shots, back in the day.
You screw with republicans and they will threaten to kill you and your family
I have a buddy who occasionally calls me for gigs. back in the day he had a sort of semi-hit, complete with video on MTV. the obligatory female model in the video later married Scott Brown.
when Brown first ran for Kennedy’s Senate seat, the video got lots of hits. look, Scott Brown’s wife in an MTV video!!
and, my buddy got lots of death threats and various other promises of serious abuse.
for writing a song, that had a video, that featured Brown’s wife being sort-of naughty in a red dress, before she was Brown’s wife, decades before Brown ran for national office.
some people need some serious therapy.
Do NOT underestimate slingshots!
a good old sling will do some damage as well. takes some practice to be accurate, though.
apparently the folks in the balearic islands were the best shots, back in the day.
You screw with republicans and they will threaten to kill you and your family
I have a buddy who occasionally calls me for gigs. back in the day he had a sort of semi-hit, complete with video on MTV. the obligatory female model in the video later married Scott Brown.
when Brown first ran for Kennedy’s Senate seat, the video got lots of hits. look, Scott Brown’s wife in an MTV video!!
and, my buddy got lots of death threats and various other promises of serious abuse.
for writing a song, that had a video, that featured Brown’s wife being sort-of naughty in a red dress, before she was Brown’s wife, decades before Brown ran for national office.
some people need some serious therapy.
For the Count from today’s Washington Post on the subject of Senators Flake and Corker’s comments about Trump:
See, they’ve been focusing on governing all year. Who knew?
For the Count from today’s Washington Post on the subject of Senators Flake and Corker’s comments about Trump:
See, they’ve been focusing on governing all year. Who knew?
“before she was Brown’s wife, decades before Brown ran for national office.”
There are vast quantities of RWNJ stupidity that are best categorized as
“F’n CALENDARS, how do they work?1??”
“before she was Brown’s wife, decades before Brown ran for national office.”
There are vast quantities of RWNJ stupidity that are best categorized as
“F’n CALENDARS, how do they work?1??”
https://www.thedailybeast.com/establishment-republicans-agree-steve-bannon-is-kicking-our-ass?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning
https://www.thedailybeast.com/establishment-republicans-agree-steve-bannon-is-kicking-our-ass?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning
This little girl wishes she was either a fetus or a corporation as the cold-blooded murderers in the republican party try to kill her:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/10/26/1710035/-Immigration-agents-take-10-year-old-girl-into-custody-just-hours-after-emergency-surgery
So much for limited government and killing the regulatory state, assholes.
This little girl wishes she was either a fetus or a corporation as the cold-blooded murderers in the republican party try to kill her:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/10/26/1710035/-Immigration-agents-take-10-year-old-girl-into-custody-just-hours-after-emergency-surgery
So much for limited government and killing the regulatory state, assholes.
Establishment Republicans Agree: Steve Bannon Is Kicking Our Ass
So, kick back, you twerps.
Establishment Republicans Agree: Steve Bannon Is Kicking Our Ass
So, kick back, you twerps.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/i-fought-a-war-against-iran-and-it-ended-badly/
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/i-fought-a-war-against-iran-and-it-ended-badly/
Robots, get yer humans:
Robots are capital. They will be owned by the very few and the very wealthy:
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/10/you-will-lose-your-job-to-a-robot-and-sooner-than-you-think-2/
Robots, get yer humans:
Robots are capital. They will be owned by the very few and the very wealthy:
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/10/you-will-lose-your-job-to-a-robot-and-sooner-than-you-think-2/
There is no line:
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/10/where-do-they-draw-line-is-there-line.html
They are going to kill.
There is no line:
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/10/where-do-they-draw-line-is-there-line.html
They are going to kill.
Cornyn sounds like every other Republican: GOP Uber Alles ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ !
Cornyn sounds like every other Republican: GOP Uber Alles ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ !
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/yemens-horrifying-cholera-epidemic-continues-to-spread-3/
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/yemens-horrifying-cholera-epidemic-continues-to-spread-3/
“I think one of the greatest of all terms I’ve come up with is ‘fake,’ ” Trump told former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee (R) during an interview. “I guess other people have used it, perhaps over the years, but I’ve never noticed it.”
True, he never noticed that every woman he has ever been with, especially those he assaulted, were faking their orgasms.
He thought they were awarding him a Nobel Prize.
“I think one of the greatest of all terms I’ve come up with is ‘fake,’ ” Trump told former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee (R) during an interview. “I guess other people have used it, perhaps over the years, but I’ve never noticed it.”
True, he never noticed that every woman he has ever been with, especially those he assaulted, were faking their orgasms.
He thought they were awarding him a Nobel Prize.
“tRump told former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee (R) during an interview.”
I don’t have a joke here. THAT is the joke.
“tRump told former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee (R) during an interview.”
I don’t have a joke here. THAT is the joke.
a good old sling will do some damage as well. takes some practice to be accurate, though.
The guy I linked to (who has a very strict policy of not shooting at anything living that does not volunteer for it) has devised some full-auto contraptions and some with sniper options. His most extreme hand-held device is armor-piercing (but due to a loophole in German law formally just a toy).
I could very well imagine RW nutjobs in the US arming up with stuff like that if explosives would suddenly disappear from this world (or were not ever invented).
a good old sling will do some damage as well. takes some practice to be accurate, though.
The guy I linked to (who has a very strict policy of not shooting at anything living that does not volunteer for it) has devised some full-auto contraptions and some with sniper options. His most extreme hand-held device is armor-piercing (but due to a loophole in German law formally just a toy).
I could very well imagine RW nutjobs in the US arming up with stuff like that if explosives would suddenly disappear from this world (or were not ever invented).
An uncivil war.
Bring it on. I want to die in that war.
Buchanan and company have yearned for this for decades. Let’s give it to them with utter savagery.
This uncivil war, which is upon us, seems to have three sides, ours deemed irrelevant, and it seems for good cause.
Democrats yammer on about our lofty intentions.
Fuck that shit.
Buchanan is under some illusion that rump is going to keep America out of costly, bloodthirsty foreign conflicts.
Such a fascist, racist hard ass. Such an eternal dupe for every racist, fascist impulse in the full of shit American psyche.
McCain, rump, buchanan, reagan, flake, delay, bannon, gingrich, the Tea Party and the rest of the conservative filth destroying our government and country now dance the kabuki that they each are on two opposite sides of a deadly isosceles triangle.
They vote in goosestep.
Fuck all of them.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/buchanan/its-trumps-party-mccain-corker-flake/
An uncivil war.
Bring it on. I want to die in that war.
Buchanan and company have yearned for this for decades. Let’s give it to them with utter savagery.
This uncivil war, which is upon us, seems to have three sides, ours deemed irrelevant, and it seems for good cause.
Democrats yammer on about our lofty intentions.
Fuck that shit.
Buchanan is under some illusion that rump is going to keep America out of costly, bloodthirsty foreign conflicts.
Such a fascist, racist hard ass. Such an eternal dupe for every racist, fascist impulse in the full of shit American psyche.
McCain, rump, buchanan, reagan, flake, delay, bannon, gingrich, the Tea Party and the rest of the conservative filth destroying our government and country now dance the kabuki that they each are on two opposite sides of a deadly isosceles triangle.
They vote in goosestep.
Fuck all of them.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/buchanan/its-trumps-party-mccain-corker-flake/
Coldblooded, pigfucking, subhuman murderers.
All republicans.
Every republican male, every republican female, every republican white, every republican black, every republican hispanic, every republican russian, every republican gay, every republican lesbian, every fucking vermin republican from every walk of life in the country.
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/10/republicans-cant-scrounge-up-8-billion-for-childrens-medical-care/
Coldblooded, pigfucking, subhuman murderers.
All republicans.
Every republican male, every republican female, every republican white, every republican black, every republican hispanic, every republican russian, every republican gay, every republican lesbian, every fucking vermin republican from every walk of life in the country.
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/10/republicans-cant-scrounge-up-8-billion-for-childrens-medical-care/
Please go for it. Don’t stop there. Execute the entire committee which approved the uranium deal with Russia. Execute Obama.
The CHAIR! I want to see all of the republican filth dancing in the streets and on the rooftops across the country.
Let’s get that republican blood lust fully out.
Bring your children, scum. Let THEM desecrate Hillary’s corpse. What more fitting way to initiate the little republican ghouls into the murderous conservative movement.
You’ll have to execute me too, please. The sooner the better, for your own good, fuckers, and what other good is there besides a republican’s own good:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/gorka-says-hillary-clinton-is-guilty-of-treason-could-get-the-chair
Please go for it. Don’t stop there. Execute the entire committee which approved the uranium deal with Russia. Execute Obama.
The CHAIR! I want to see all of the republican filth dancing in the streets and on the rooftops across the country.
Let’s get that republican blood lust fully out.
Bring your children, scum. Let THEM desecrate Hillary’s corpse. What more fitting way to initiate the little republican ghouls into the murderous conservative movement.
You’ll have to execute me too, please. The sooner the better, for your own good, fuckers, and what other good is there besides a republican’s own good:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/gorka-says-hillary-clinton-is-guilty-of-treason-could-get-the-chair
Slow, deep breaths, count. Slow deep breaths.
Slow, deep breaths, count. Slow deep breaths.
Primed and lubricated for genocide:
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/10/of-opioids-and-pitchforks-by-bloggersrus.html
Massive income inequality.
Conservatives have laughed over that formulation for decades even as they engineered it, grew fat on it, and lit more cigars than they can fit into their rapacious mouths.
Democrats have done nothing except offer them a light and move into the same neighborhoods.
Yet Democrats will be slaughtered first by the mob ginned up by rump inc., merely for standing by and because republicans have mastered the media, societal, and governmental instruments and infrastructure of assigning guilt and carrying out martial vengeance.
It’s positively Balkan.
republicans next, after they have served their base robespierres’ massive corruption and blood lust.
rump’s head and his millions of Madam Defarge’s heads will end up in baskets too, I promise you.
The mob’s blade will know no limits.
Bannon et al will be goblin’s heads on posts, their genitalia arranged in their dead mouths.
That will mark and ending of sorts and perhaps a new beginning.
What then?
Breath out.
Have a nice weekend.
Primed and lubricated for genocide:
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/10/of-opioids-and-pitchforks-by-bloggersrus.html
Massive income inequality.
Conservatives have laughed over that formulation for decades even as they engineered it, grew fat on it, and lit more cigars than they can fit into their rapacious mouths.
Democrats have done nothing except offer them a light and move into the same neighborhoods.
Yet Democrats will be slaughtered first by the mob ginned up by rump inc., merely for standing by and because republicans have mastered the media, societal, and governmental instruments and infrastructure of assigning guilt and carrying out martial vengeance.
It’s positively Balkan.
republicans next, after they have served their base robespierres’ massive corruption and blood lust.
rump’s head and his millions of Madam Defarge’s heads will end up in baskets too, I promise you.
The mob’s blade will know no limits.
Bannon et al will be goblin’s heads on posts, their genitalia arranged in their dead mouths.
That will mark and ending of sorts and perhaps a new beginning.
What then?
Breath out.
Have a nice weekend.
A question for us all:
When will we reach Thermidor?
Speed the day.
A question for us all:
When will we reach Thermidor?
Speed the day.