But he played such a convincing gay guy in Miss Doubtfire

by

by liberal japonicus

Not meaning to make light of the Harvey Weinstein revelations, but this was funny:

On Oct. 5, The New York Times published a disturbing report detailing sexual harassment allegations against film producer and executive Harvey Weinstein, some of which dated back nearly three decades. After news of the allegations broke, the Weinstein Company fired the 65-year-old movie mogul, who co-founded the studio with his brother, Bob. The claims against Weinstein intensified Tuesday when the New Yorker published an investigative report, written by Ronan Farrow, that detailed rape allegations brought by three women. 

Unfortunately, the similar spellings of their surnames have lead many to confuse Weinstein for Fierstein, the legendary actor-playwright of “Torch Song Trilogy” fame and an LGBTQ rights icon. 

“I just can’t believe all these accusations of sexual harassment about Harvey Fierstein,” one person wrote. “I always thought he was gay.” Added another: “Am I the only one who confused this weekend because I didn’t know Harvey Weinstein and Harvey Fierstein were two different people?”

I should also add that Fierstein has also noted that "I’ve had some fun with the mix-up but, as you are well aware, the underlying issues of women being objectified is no laughing matter. So I think I am going to bow out of this discussion, stop making jokes, and let that story play itself out without my two cents.”

I have some thoughts about this, but thought we needed to another thread to hijack for gun control. Have at it.

596 thoughts on “But he played such a convincing gay guy in Miss Doubtfire”

  1. The names aren’t that close – different first letters and syllables make them distinctive. I guess maybe it’s a bit like the Chrises and the Ryans, where a similar first name and a passing similarity make them confusable.

  2. The names aren’t that close – different first letters and syllables make them distinctive. I guess maybe it’s a bit like the Chrises and the Ryans, where a similar first name and a passing similarity make them confusable.

  3. Open Thread? A little politics this time, although to be honest, politics, current events, and the progressive blohosphere has become so depressing that I have been staying away.
    The Trump changes to the ACA will be implemented differently in different states, with more kindness and generosity in blue states. Fine.
    “The Big Sort” can be a strategy. As Red States become Hell, the poor, minorities and progressives will all move to California, so in 2020 Harris can maybe get 10 million useless wasted votes and lose the electoral college. And Republicans get a filibuster proof Senate and enough states for a Constitutional Convention.
    Ewwww, but Texas is so icky, cept for Austin. Dallas. Houston. San Antonio. El Paso/Juarez. Not enough Thai restaurants. Fat people.

  4. Open Thread? A little politics this time, although to be honest, politics, current events, and the progressive blohosphere has become so depressing that I have been staying away.
    The Trump changes to the ACA will be implemented differently in different states, with more kindness and generosity in blue states. Fine.
    “The Big Sort” can be a strategy. As Red States become Hell, the poor, minorities and progressives will all move to California, so in 2020 Harris can maybe get 10 million useless wasted votes and lose the electoral college. And Republicans get a filibuster proof Senate and enough states for a Constitutional Convention.
    Ewwww, but Texas is so icky, cept for Austin. Dallas. Houston. San Antonio. El Paso/Juarez. Not enough Thai restaurants. Fat people.

  5. And related to above, a recent Article about QE
    A new problem arose – one that most people wished they had. What to do with all that money?
    “Around €500m can be found 1,100 kilometres from Milan, two storeys underground, in the form of concrete foundations at 20 Fenchurch Avenue in the middle of the City of London’s old financial district. Generali, which has received more than €8bn from the ECB’s money kitchen, decided to invest a chunk of its QE proceeds on building a giant office block to take advantage of the UK capital’s soaring property prices.”
    QE, or low interest rates, in this environment, fosters growth jobs prosperity and happiness in blue urban areas. This has been known at least since WJ Bryan’s “Cross of Gold” IOW, California and NYC and Democrats have been screwing flyover country. You’re not richer cause you’re smarter nicer or prettier.

  6. And related to above, a recent Article about QE
    A new problem arose – one that most people wished they had. What to do with all that money?
    “Around €500m can be found 1,100 kilometres from Milan, two storeys underground, in the form of concrete foundations at 20 Fenchurch Avenue in the middle of the City of London’s old financial district. Generali, which has received more than €8bn from the ECB’s money kitchen, decided to invest a chunk of its QE proceeds on building a giant office block to take advantage of the UK capital’s soaring property prices.”
    QE, or low interest rates, in this environment, fosters growth jobs prosperity and happiness in blue urban areas. This has been known at least since WJ Bryan’s “Cross of Gold” IOW, California and NYC and Democrats have been screwing flyover country. You’re not richer cause you’re smarter nicer or prettier.

  7. California and NYC and Democrats have been screwing flyover country.
    acreage does not get representation in Congress.

  8. California and NYC and Democrats have been screwing flyover country.
    acreage does not get representation in Congress.

  9. The usual republican/rumpian suspects will round up the Weinsteins, the Fiersteins, and the Soros’ on any of the usual 2017-year old charges they can bring:
    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/harvey-weinstein-anti-semitism_us_59de57f7e4b00abf3645b90f
    “The Big Sort” can be a strategy. As Red States become Hell, the poor, minorities and progressives will all move to California, so in 2020 Harris can maybe get 10 million useless wasted votes and lose the electoral college. And Republicans get a filibuster proof Senate and enough states for a Constitutional Convention.”
    Change “can be” to “most certainly is”.

  10. The usual republican/rumpian suspects will round up the Weinsteins, the Fiersteins, and the Soros’ on any of the usual 2017-year old charges they can bring:
    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/harvey-weinstein-anti-semitism_us_59de57f7e4b00abf3645b90f
    “The Big Sort” can be a strategy. As Red States become Hell, the poor, minorities and progressives will all move to California, so in 2020 Harris can maybe get 10 million useless wasted votes and lose the electoral college. And Republicans get a filibuster proof Senate and enough states for a Constitutional Convention.”
    Change “can be” to “most certainly is”.

  13. America is an ongoing 231-year-old thread hijacked by the punctuation of gunfire.
    It’s too soon to talk about it.

  14. America is an ongoing 231-year-old thread hijacked by the punctuation of gunfire.
    It’s too soon to talk about it.

  19. acreage does not get representation in Congress.
    Yes, it does. Every state, no matter its population, for the foreseeable future gets two Senators and one Congressperson and three electoral votes.
    With 33 small pop states, the small state party would get a veto-proof Senate and an amendment machine. Repubs are quite close. This is the Koch goal.
    guns?
    A Left Argument For Gun Rights …counterpunch
    “The whole proletariat must be armed at once with muskets, rifles, cannon and ammunition… Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary.” …Karl Marx

  20. acreage does not get representation in Congress.
    Yes, it does. Every state, no matter its population, for the foreseeable future gets two Senators and one Congressperson and three electoral votes.
    With 33 small pop states, the small state party would get a veto-proof Senate and an amendment machine. Repubs are quite close. This is the Koch goal.
    guns?
    A Left Argument For Gun Rights …counterpunch
    “The whole proletariat must be armed at once with muskets, rifles, cannon and ammunition… Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary.” …Karl Marx

  21. well played, Harvey Fierstein.
    This has been known at least since WJ Bryan’s “Cross of Gold” IOW, California and NYC and Democrats have been screwing flyover country.
    Longer than that.
    Shays Rebellion was about snotty Boston elitists screwing over Connecticut River farmers.
    Whiskey Rebellion was about snotty Washington and Hamilton screwing over western PA farmers.
    Legitimate gripes, in both cases.
    Different people have different interests. If you like, I can give you the long long list of the ways in which the worthy residents of “flyover country” have been screwing over all of us coastal elites.
    Time to get the f*** over it. Either that, or lets just break the freaking country up along regional lines and be done with it.
    Culture wars have past their sell-by date. I know it’s a major national industry and profit center, but enough is enough. Time to focus on more important, more interesting, and more challenging, problems, or call it a freaking day.
    Everyone fired up about gun rights likes to say “Hey, I never shot anyone!”. Everyone fired up about the tyranny of Black Lives Matter likes to say “Hey, I never oppressed a black person!”.
    I’m fired up about the yeomen and -women of The Sainted Heartland bitching about “coastal elites”, which apparently means people like me.
    I’m not oppressing anybody. If middle America is unhappy with its situation, it needs to get off of its collective ass and change it. I’m happy to do whatever I can to help, but to the degree that heartlanders lives suck, the power to change that lies with them, not me.
    Voting for the Trumps and Brownbacks and Ryans and Scott Walkers and god knows whatever other panel of benighted greed-mongering zombies flyover folks like to vote for is not going to get that done.
    Enough of this “flyover country” bullshit. Get yourself some union representation. If you don’t like unions, figure something else out, but what you don’t want to do is mortgage the next generation of state and local taxes to some ginormous corporation in return for a couple thousand factory jobs paying $15/hour.
    You by god don’t want to revitalize your local economy by sending another generation or three of your young people down in a fucking hole to dig coal.
    Hey, what do I, Mr. Coastal Elitist, know about any of that? Great-grandad died in a hole in the ground. Wife’s grandfather died, young, of emphysema, after a lifetime of digging that crap out of the ground.
    See, we’re not all snotty know-it-all punks who were born with a silver spoon in their mouths. You’re mistaking us for that asshole you voted for for POTUS.
    You can do better. Do better. Do it for yourselves and for your kids and grandkids. Don’t want to watch your kids snuff themselves with oxy and fentanyl? Do better.
    Vote in some people who aren’t going to sell your sorry asses to the Koch Brothers or their ilk. Change your situation in life.
    And quit bitching about people like me. It’s tiresome. Whatever your situation is, it ain’t because of me.
    Want help? I’ll do everything I can. Want to bitch? Talk to the hand.
    Enough of this stupid, divisive, destructive bullshit already.
    Thank you for your indulgence. This bullshit is getting up my nose a little too much these days.

  22. well played, Harvey Fierstein.
    This has been known at least since WJ Bryan’s “Cross of Gold” IOW, California and NYC and Democrats have been screwing flyover country.
    Longer than that.
    Shays Rebellion was about snotty Boston elitists screwing over Connecticut River farmers.
    Whiskey Rebellion was about snotty Washington and Hamilton screwing over western PA farmers.
    Legitimate gripes, in both cases.
    Different people have different interests. If you like, I can give you the long long list of the ways in which the worthy residents of “flyover country” have been screwing over all of us coastal elites.
    Time to get the f*** over it. Either that, or lets just break the freaking country up along regional lines and be done with it.
    Culture wars have past their sell-by date. I know it’s a major national industry and profit center, but enough is enough. Time to focus on more important, more interesting, and more challenging, problems, or call it a freaking day.
    Everyone fired up about gun rights likes to say “Hey, I never shot anyone!”. Everyone fired up about the tyranny of Black Lives Matter likes to say “Hey, I never oppressed a black person!”.
    I’m fired up about the yeomen and -women of The Sainted Heartland bitching about “coastal elites”, which apparently means people like me.
    I’m not oppressing anybody. If middle America is unhappy with its situation, it needs to get off of its collective ass and change it. I’m happy to do whatever I can to help, but to the degree that heartlanders lives suck, the power to change that lies with them, not me.
    Voting for the Trumps and Brownbacks and Ryans and Scott Walkers and god knows whatever other panel of benighted greed-mongering zombies flyover folks like to vote for is not going to get that done.
    Enough of this “flyover country” bullshit. Get yourself some union representation. If you don’t like unions, figure something else out, but what you don’t want to do is mortgage the next generation of state and local taxes to some ginormous corporation in return for a couple thousand factory jobs paying $15/hour.
    You by god don’t want to revitalize your local economy by sending another generation or three of your young people down in a fucking hole to dig coal.
    Hey, what do I, Mr. Coastal Elitist, know about any of that? Great-grandad died in a hole in the ground. Wife’s grandfather died, young, of emphysema, after a lifetime of digging that crap out of the ground.
    See, we’re not all snotty know-it-all punks who were born with a silver spoon in their mouths. You’re mistaking us for that asshole you voted for for POTUS.
    You can do better. Do better. Do it for yourselves and for your kids and grandkids. Don’t want to watch your kids snuff themselves with oxy and fentanyl? Do better.
    Vote in some people who aren’t going to sell your sorry asses to the Koch Brothers or their ilk. Change your situation in life.
    And quit bitching about people like me. It’s tiresome. Whatever your situation is, it ain’t because of me.
    Want help? I’ll do everything I can. Want to bitch? Talk to the hand.
    Enough of this stupid, divisive, destructive bullshit already.
    Thank you for your indulgence. This bullshit is getting up my nose a little too much these days.

  23. I’m open to the argument that we need many, many, many more weapons in the hands of the citizenry before we can have fewer.
    “Or perhaps I have missed the gun-control proposals that include disarming the police and the repressive state apparatus.”
    I’ve proposed that right here, but I’m nobody.
    Yes, the state of mind is the root problem.
    And yes, trucks as weapons. It makes you wonder why so many truckers carry guns too, when they could just run over Dreamers with their rigs at rump’s instigation.
    I remember Karl Benz, the purported inventor of the automobile/truck, telling Henry Ford that finally we have a weapon to kill human beings while taking the kids out for a Sunday ride.
    On the other hand, Richard Gatling mused to his wife, I have an idea for a gadget but I just can’t think what the gadget is supposed to accomplish, can you?”

  24. I’m open to the argument that we need many, many, many more weapons in the hands of the citizenry before we can have fewer.
    “Or perhaps I have missed the gun-control proposals that include disarming the police and the repressive state apparatus.”
    I’ve proposed that right here, but I’m nobody.
    Yes, the state of mind is the root problem.
    And yes, trucks as weapons. It makes you wonder why so many truckers carry guns too, when they could just run over Dreamers with their rigs at rump’s instigation.
    I remember Karl Benz, the purported inventor of the automobile/truck, telling Henry Ford that finally we have a weapon to kill human beings while taking the kids out for a Sunday ride.
    On the other hand, Richard Gatling mused to his wife, I have an idea for a gadget but I just can’t think what the gadget is supposed to accomplish, can you?”

  25. acreage does not get representation in Congress.
    Yes, it does. Every state, no matter its population, for the foreseeable future gets two Senators and one Congressperson and three electoral votes.
    a state gets those things, regardless of its geographic area. acreage is not counted.
    if sparesley-populated ‘flyover’ states don’t like the fact that states with more people get a bigger say in Congress, they should get more people. we can send them educational material if they can’t figure out how to do that.

  26. acreage does not get representation in Congress.
    Yes, it does. Every state, no matter its population, for the foreseeable future gets two Senators and one Congressperson and three electoral votes.
    a state gets those things, regardless of its geographic area. acreage is not counted.
    if sparesley-populated ‘flyover’ states don’t like the fact that states with more people get a bigger say in Congress, they should get more people. we can send them educational material if they can’t figure out how to do that.

  27. Another proof for the gun lobby is that rump is figuring out a way to murder Americans with the deadly weapon of rumpnocare, without firing a shot.
    It’s like handing out free swimming pools.

  28. Another proof for the gun lobby is that rump is figuring out a way to murder Americans with the deadly weapon of rumpnocare, without firing a shot.
    It’s like handing out free swimming pools.

  31. A Left Argument For Gun Rights …counterpunch
    Want a gun, have a gun. I don’t give a crap. Don’t be an idiot about it.
    That said, I would pay good money to read one damned person talk honestly about the whole assault rifle thing.
    It is in fact damned hard to pin down a definition of “assault rifle” that is legally useful. So I personally don’t see a big win in any of the assault rifle bans, other than giving people a false sense that they’re accomplishing something.
    However.
    An AR-15 or any variant of an AR-15 is not the same as a handgun or a shotgun or even other kinds of rifles.
    It fires a round that travels at an unusually high rate of speed. Upon contact with soft tissue it may tumble and create quite large wounds. It will, and was designed to, penetrate steel plate at a distance of a couple hundred yards.
    Depending on the firearm and the shooter, a handgun is accurate to 25 to 75 yards. If you can hit a target accurately at 75 yards, you’re a damned good shooter. Frankly, if you can hit a live moving target in a stressful situation at 25 yards, you’re probably a damned good shooter. Not my experience, but that’s my understanding. Gun aficionados, correct me if you wish.
    A shotgun has an effective range of 50 to 100 yards. For practical purposes, most likely the shorter end of that range.
    Depending on what round you are shooting, an AR-15 has an effective range of 500-800 yards.
    It’s a firearm with lots of uses, so I am told, but it was designed to be an effective offensive weapon for shooting people and rendering them hors de combat in ranges of hundreds of yards. It’s not the same, and does not present the same risks to public safety, as a handgun, or shotgun, or even other rifles which were designed for hunting larger game.
    Want to bring “the truth” to the gun debate? Bring the whole truth.

  32. A Left Argument For Gun Rights …counterpunch
    Want a gun, have a gun. I don’t give a crap. Don’t be an idiot about it.
    That said, I would pay good money to read one damned person talk honestly about the whole assault rifle thing.
    It is in fact damned hard to pin down a definition of “assault rifle” that is legally useful. So I personally don’t see a big win in any of the assault rifle bans, other than giving people a false sense that they’re accomplishing something.
    However.
    An AR-15 or any variant of an AR-15 is not the same as a handgun or a shotgun or even other kinds of rifles.
    It fires a round that travels at an unusually high rate of speed. Upon contact with soft tissue it may tumble and create quite large wounds. It will, and was designed to, penetrate steel plate at a distance of a couple hundred yards.
    Depending on the firearm and the shooter, a handgun is accurate to 25 to 75 yards. If you can hit a target accurately at 75 yards, you’re a damned good shooter. Frankly, if you can hit a live moving target in a stressful situation at 25 yards, you’re probably a damned good shooter. Not my experience, but that’s my understanding. Gun aficionados, correct me if you wish.
    A shotgun has an effective range of 50 to 100 yards. For practical purposes, most likely the shorter end of that range.
    Depending on what round you are shooting, an AR-15 has an effective range of 500-800 yards.
    It’s a firearm with lots of uses, so I am told, but it was designed to be an effective offensive weapon for shooting people and rendering them hors de combat in ranges of hundreds of yards. It’s not the same, and does not present the same risks to public safety, as a handgun, or shotgun, or even other rifles which were designed for hunting larger game.
    Want to bring “the truth” to the gun debate? Bring the whole truth.

  39. My car insurance rates are up big time every year in Colorado, my annual premium, for liability and comprehensive alone, is now about what my car is worth, because of massive hail damage for the most part in recent years.
    No damage to my car. Why is this MY fucking problem? I’ve done nothing to deserve this. Where is my fucking freedom from auto insurance mandates?
    Why am I paying for these free-loading idiot snowflakes who park their Humvees outside? Healthy, non-hailed on me shouldn’t be contributing to the welfare of sick jerks with hail dents in their cars and shattered windshields.
    This, despite the fact the “insurance pool” is so much larger in Colorado because of massive population growth along the Front Range.
    How do dat work, anyhoo, in pigshit America?
    Furthermore, the front range of the Colorado Rocky Mountains should be evacuated and abandoned to human habitation, like New Orleans was, and Houston and Florida and Puerto Rico should be.
    It’d be cheaper for all around.
    I don’t know what the original numbnuts were thinking when they settled this area, so prone to catastrophe. The first time their wigwams were pelted with hail, they should have cleared the area and skedaddled.
    Didn’t they have MBAs?
    I want cheap auto insurance coverage, dammit, without all these add-ons, like if I kill a bunch of people with my car I have to pay a premium and deductible to “protect” myself.
    If I want cheap coverage that stipulates that all the dead and maimed people get that I run over is a used chamois for their trouble, what’s the harm?

  40. My car insurance rates are up big time every year in Colorado, my annual premium, for liability and comprehensive alone, is now about what my car is worth, because of massive hail damage for the most part in recent years.
    No damage to my car. Why is this MY fucking problem? I’ve done nothing to deserve this. Where is my fucking freedom from auto insurance mandates?
    Why am I paying for these free-loading idiot snowflakes who park their Humvees outside? Healthy, non-hailed on me shouldn’t be contributing to the welfare of sick jerks with hail dents in their cars and shattered windshields.
    This, despite the fact the “insurance pool” is so much larger in Colorado because of massive population growth along the Front Range.
    How do dat work, anyhoo, in pigshit America?
    Furthermore, the front range of the Colorado Rocky Mountains should be evacuated and abandoned to human habitation, like New Orleans was, and Houston and Florida and Puerto Rico should be.
    It’d be cheaper for all around.
    I don’t know what the original numbnuts were thinking when they settled this area, so prone to catastrophe. The first time their wigwams were pelted with hail, they should have cleared the area and skedaddled.
    Didn’t they have MBAs?
    I want cheap auto insurance coverage, dammit, without all these add-ons, like if I kill a bunch of people with my car I have to pay a premium and deductible to “protect” myself.
    If I want cheap coverage that stipulates that all the dead and maimed people get that I run over is a used chamois for their trouble, what’s the harm?

  41. Hospital and medical insurance stocks are down pretty big over the past couple of months.
    Clearly, shareholders must be bailed out.
    The price of medical care must rise.
    They need debt collectors to suit up on their behalf with surgeons and their surgical units right there in the operating theater for every procedure.
    That way they can claim their pound of flesh while the patient snoozes.
    Such beautiful, beautiful medical care not named after a nigger.
    I don’t think the death merchants should be required to wash their hands either, because that would violate their religious rights.

  42. Hospital and medical insurance stocks are down pretty big over the past couple of months.
    Clearly, shareholders must be bailed out.
    The price of medical care must rise.
    They need debt collectors to suit up on their behalf with surgeons and their surgical units right there in the operating theater for every procedure.
    That way they can claim their pound of flesh while the patient snoozes.
    Such beautiful, beautiful medical care not named after a nigger.
    I don’t think the death merchants should be required to wash their hands either, because that would violate their religious rights.

  43. Does anyone remember the game KerPlunk? That’s what I feel like Trump is playing, only the marbles are the United States of America.
    There’s this from 538:
    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trump-is-far-less-popular-than-the-economy-suggests-he-should-be/
    When (not “if”!) he pulls the wrong stick and the thus-far blissfully disconnected stock market takes a nosedive, along with the economy (probably worldwide, because that’s how things work), how unpopular will he be then, I wonder?
    I wonder that in an academic sort of way, because it won’t be all that important compared to the damage to countless lives.

  44. Does anyone remember the game KerPlunk? That’s what I feel like Trump is playing, only the marbles are the United States of America.
    There’s this from 538:
    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trump-is-far-less-popular-than-the-economy-suggests-he-should-be/
    When (not “if”!) he pulls the wrong stick and the thus-far blissfully disconnected stock market takes a nosedive, along with the economy (probably worldwide, because that’s how things work), how unpopular will he be then, I wonder?
    I wonder that in an academic sort of way, because it won’t be all that important compared to the damage to countless lives.

  45. https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/10/13/1706623/-Suspicious-U-S-Diplomat-illnesses-May-be-a-Ruse-to-End-U-S-Cuba-D-tente
    The rump campaign and now the rump Administration are colluding with Putin’s Russia, via these sound wave attacks on diplomats only, to scuttle Obama’s rapprochement between Cuba and the United States.
    Conservatives have a choice. Believe me or your lying gummint, the one you people hate.
    Why would rump want Russian intercontinental ballistic nuclear warhead missiles back in Cuba?
    Was John F. Kennedy a black man with a legacy too that must be destroyed.

  46. https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/10/13/1706623/-Suspicious-U-S-Diplomat-illnesses-May-be-a-Ruse-to-End-U-S-Cuba-D-tente
    The rump campaign and now the rump Administration are colluding with Putin’s Russia, via these sound wave attacks on diplomats only, to scuttle Obama’s rapprochement between Cuba and the United States.
    Conservatives have a choice. Believe me or your lying gummint, the one you people hate.
    Why would rump want Russian intercontinental ballistic nuclear warhead missiles back in Cuba?
    Was John F. Kennedy a black man with a legacy too that must be destroyed.

  51. if sparesley-populated ‘flyover’ states don’t like the fact that states with more people get a bigger say in Congress, they should get more people. we can send them educational material if they can’t figure out how to do that.
    We can also provide material on Kansas’ experience, for information on how NOT to do that.

  52. if sparesley-populated ‘flyover’ states don’t like the fact that states with more people get a bigger say in Congress, they should get more people. we can send them educational material if they can’t figure out how to do that.
    We can also provide material on Kansas’ experience, for information on how NOT to do that.

  53. I don’t know what the original numbnuts were thinking when they settled this area, so prone to catastrophe. The first time their wigwams were pelted with hail, they should have cleared the area and skedaddled.
    Maybe they didn’t get pelted with hail, back in the day. It could be more severe now, due to climate change….

  54. I don’t know what the original numbnuts were thinking when they settled this area, so prone to catastrophe. The first time their wigwams were pelted with hail, they should have cleared the area and skedaddled.
    Maybe they didn’t get pelted with hail, back in the day. It could be more severe now, due to climate change….

  57. “Maybe they didn’t get pelted with hail, back in the day.”
    Wigwams are more resilient to hail, you don’t get dings and dents and broken glass.
    That’s why wigwam insurance rates are much more reasonable.
    AND, I’m sure many of those flyover states want more population, but to only count them as 3/5.

  58. “Maybe they didn’t get pelted with hail, back in the day.”
    Wigwams are more resilient to hail, you don’t get dings and dents and broken glass.
    That’s why wigwam insurance rates are much more reasonable.
    AND, I’m sure many of those flyover states want more population, but to only count them as 3/5.

  61. Actually, out West wigwams were called wikiups.
    If you don’t use the correct nomenclature, they cancel your insurance for undisclosed preexisting mispronunciation. Says right here, if you squint real hard: “Wikiup.”
    That’s what happens when we allow insurance companies to sell across tribal lines … they play endless word games with you. It’s called a wigwam at company headquarters in New Jersey and “wikiup” in New Mexico ain’t no wigwam.
    It ain’t no moop neither. If you want to claim it’s a gunshot wound, you’ll need three doctors signatures and the scalp of Woman Who Talks Funny as proof.
    There’s also a ten-year waiting period for talking about it at all.
    One tribe’s tumor is a scraped knee to another. We pay out for the latter regardless.
    Look it up on Wikipedia.
    Coverage denied.
    It is a little known fact that the Comanche were climate change deniers and roasted anyone alive who thought differently.

  62. Actually, out West wigwams were called wikiups.
    If you don’t use the correct nomenclature, they cancel your insurance for undisclosed preexisting mispronunciation. Says right here, if you squint real hard: “Wikiup.”
    That’s what happens when we allow insurance companies to sell across tribal lines … they play endless word games with you. It’s called a wigwam at company headquarters in New Jersey and “wikiup” in New Mexico ain’t no wigwam.
    It ain’t no moop neither. If you want to claim it’s a gunshot wound, you’ll need three doctors signatures and the scalp of Woman Who Talks Funny as proof.
    There’s also a ten-year waiting period for talking about it at all.
    One tribe’s tumor is a scraped knee to another. We pay out for the latter regardless.
    Look it up on Wikipedia.
    Coverage denied.
    It is a little known fact that the Comanche were climate change deniers and roasted anyone alive who thought differently.

  63. The flyover red states are not being screwed any anyone They are parasitic states with economies that are dependent upon government spending provided by blue states.

  64. The flyover red states are not being screwed any anyone They are parasitic states with economies that are dependent upon government spending provided by blue states.

  65. Speaking of insurance, I’ve just ruined 8 years of a no-claims bonus by smashing into a concrete bollard while momentarily blinded by the sun. I’m unhurt, but the car is undrivable, was towed home tonight and is being collected to go for repair tomorrow. It’s extremely annoying, because I have to go to London next week and should be taking lots of stuff with me. Trains: very expensive. Taxis etc: very expensive. I’m very, very pissed off!

  66. Speaking of insurance, I’ve just ruined 8 years of a no-claims bonus by smashing into a concrete bollard while momentarily blinded by the sun. I’m unhurt, but the car is undrivable, was towed home tonight and is being collected to go for repair tomorrow. It’s extremely annoying, because I have to go to London next week and should be taking lots of stuff with me. Trains: very expensive. Taxis etc: very expensive. I’m very, very pissed off!

  71. Thanks Count. It’s still very inconvenient, but since posting I’ve checked my policy, and I must have paid extra for a protected no-claims bonus. I remember considering it, and I obviously went for it, thank all the gods.

  72. Thanks Count. It’s still very inconvenient, but since posting I’ve checked my policy, and I must have paid extra for a protected no-claims bonus. I remember considering it, and I obviously went for it, thank all the gods.

  73. GftNC — I had a minor fender bender not long ago and it was upsetting enough even though almost nothing happened! Sorry to hear you’re going through it….glad you’re okay, though.

  74. GftNC — I had a minor fender bender not long ago and it was upsetting enough even though almost nothing happened! Sorry to hear you’re going through it….glad you’re okay, though.

  75. QE, or low interest rates, in this environment, fosters growth jobs prosperity and happiness in blue urban areas. This has been known at least since WJ Bryan’s “Cross of Gold”
    Huh?
    The speech, and the monetary controversy of the time, were about the conflict between westerners – farmers and ranchers – and “East Coast urban elites.” It was the former who wanted loose money and the latter who were “sound money” advocates. Farmers are debtors. They like inflation. Bankers are creditors. They hate it.
    Bryan wanted to get away from the gold standard and have coinage of silver – quantitative easing of a type. The hard money types hated the idea.
    And, btw, in modern days, why should easy money – low rates – help urban areas and harm rural dwellers? There is no reason I can think of.

  76. QE, or low interest rates, in this environment, fosters growth jobs prosperity and happiness in blue urban areas. This has been known at least since WJ Bryan’s “Cross of Gold”
    Huh?
    The speech, and the monetary controversy of the time, were about the conflict between westerners – farmers and ranchers – and “East Coast urban elites.” It was the former who wanted loose money and the latter who were “sound money” advocates. Farmers are debtors. They like inflation. Bankers are creditors. They hate it.
    Bryan wanted to get away from the gold standard and have coinage of silver – quantitative easing of a type. The hard money types hated the idea.
    And, btw, in modern days, why should easy money – low rates – help urban areas and harm rural dwellers? There is no reason I can think of.

  81. Thanks, JanieM and sapient. It is upsetting and annoying, but sapient is right: I’m not hurt and I didn’t hurt anyone else (the bollard came off pretty badly though!) And as the very sensible Mr GftNC says, in a couple of weeks it will be as if nothing happened.

  82. Thanks, JanieM and sapient. It is upsetting and annoying, but sapient is right: I’m not hurt and I didn’t hurt anyone else (the bollard came off pretty badly though!) And as the very sensible Mr GftNC says, in a couple of weeks it will be as if nothing happened.

  83. And as the very sensible Mr GftNC says, in a couple of weeks it will be as if nothing happened.
    Nice to have that voice of support. Again, all is well, although a pain in the ass (which, yes, I’ll tell my daily stories).

  84. And as the very sensible Mr GftNC says, in a couple of weeks it will be as if nothing happened.
    Nice to have that voice of support. Again, all is well, although a pain in the ass (which, yes, I’ll tell my daily stories).

  87. Had to go look up bollard, as I don’t believe I’ve encountered the word before (though I got a general idea from the context). Will do an informal survey at the bar tonight to see if it’s a British vs. American English thing or if I’m just a dullard about bollards.

  88. Had to go look up bollard, as I don’t believe I’ve encountered the word before (though I got a general idea from the context). Will do an informal survey at the bar tonight to see if it’s a British vs. American English thing or if I’m just a dullard about bollards.

  89. Will do an informal survey at the bar tonight to see if it’s a British vs. American English thing or if I’m just a dullard about bollards.
    Speaking of ards, dotards come to mind. Thank goodness, we’re being schooled.

  90. Will do an informal survey at the bar tonight to see if it’s a British vs. American English thing or if I’m just a dullard about bollards.
    Speaking of ards, dotards come to mind. Thank goodness, we’re being schooled.

  93. Since this thread is rambling around, here’s another direction: Apollo’s Fire playing Brandenburg Concerto No. 3.
    I’m not well-versed in classical music, but I was exposed to a few things long ago that I have treasured ever since, and this concerto is one of them. I stumbled across this rendition on YouTube a couple of years ago, and … wow. It’s great to listen to and fun to watch as well.
    The story of the founder/conductor of Apollo’s fire, Jeannette Sorell, is cool too.
    And they’re based on Cleveland. Who knew? (Well, I’m sure a lot of people did, but not me.)

  94. Since this thread is rambling around, here’s another direction: Apollo’s Fire playing Brandenburg Concerto No. 3.
    I’m not well-versed in classical music, but I was exposed to a few things long ago that I have treasured ever since, and this concerto is one of them. I stumbled across this rendition on YouTube a couple of years ago, and … wow. It’s great to listen to and fun to watch as well.
    The story of the founder/conductor of Apollo’s fire, Jeannette Sorell, is cool too.
    And they’re based on Cleveland. Who knew? (Well, I’m sure a lot of people did, but not me.)

  95. You might like this
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljojjoBGLYw
    Glenn Gould playing Brandenburg 5 on piano. Unfortunately, in addition to the split up video, the youtube video sound quality makes the piano sound harpsichord-ish, I have the recording on a remastered cd I got here in Japan and it is pretty astonishing to hear it on piano.
    Youtube being what it is, this popped up
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBOJDTvG0DQ
    Perahia playing #5 on piano. While the harpsichord is authentic, I do like it with the piano.

  96. You might like this
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljojjoBGLYw
    Glenn Gould playing Brandenburg 5 on piano. Unfortunately, in addition to the split up video, the youtube video sound quality makes the piano sound harpsichord-ish, I have the recording on a remastered cd I got here in Japan and it is pretty astonishing to hear it on piano.
    Youtube being what it is, this popped up
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBOJDTvG0DQ
    Perahia playing #5 on piano. While the harpsichord is authentic, I do like it with the piano.

  97. George Bernard Shaw wrote a five-play cycle called Back to Methuselah: A Metabiological Pentateuch, as forgotten as the title deserves. But I did my dissertation mostly on this play, so pieces of it are still stuck in my mind. To wit, from the stage directions to the fourth of the five plays, “Tragedy of an Elderly Gentleman”:

    Burrin pier on the south shore of Galway Bay in Ireland, a region of stone-capped hills and granite fields. It is a fine summer day in the year 3000 A.D. On an ancient stone stump, about three feet thick and three feet high, used for securing ships by ropes to the shore, and called a bollard or holdfast, an elderly gentleman sits facing the land, with his head bowed and his face in his hands, sobbing.

    I’m 100% sure I’ve never heard the word “bollard” used out loud.
    Also, from the first of the five plays, “In the Beginning,” the serpent talking to Eve:

    When you and Adam talk, I hear you say ‘Why?’ Always ‘Why?’ You see things; and you say ‘Why?’ But I dream things that never were; and I say ‘Why not?’

    A version of this passage is often attributed to Bobby Kennedy, because he used it, but it was Shaw’s first.

  98. George Bernard Shaw wrote a five-play cycle called Back to Methuselah: A Metabiological Pentateuch, as forgotten as the title deserves. But I did my dissertation mostly on this play, so pieces of it are still stuck in my mind. To wit, from the stage directions to the fourth of the five plays, “Tragedy of an Elderly Gentleman”:

    Burrin pier on the south shore of Galway Bay in Ireland, a region of stone-capped hills and granite fields. It is a fine summer day in the year 3000 A.D. On an ancient stone stump, about three feet thick and three feet high, used for securing ships by ropes to the shore, and called a bollard or holdfast, an elderly gentleman sits facing the land, with his head bowed and his face in his hands, sobbing.

    I’m 100% sure I’ve never heard the word “bollard” used out loud.
    Also, from the first of the five plays, “In the Beginning,” the serpent talking to Eve:

    When you and Adam talk, I hear you say ‘Why?’ Always ‘Why?’ You see things; and you say ‘Why?’ But I dream things that never were; and I say ‘Why not?’

    A version of this passage is often attributed to Bobby Kennedy, because he used it, but it was Shaw’s first.

  107. Will do an informal survey at the bar tonight to see if it’s a British vs. American English thing or if I’m just a dullard about bollards.
    OK, I know what a bollard is. But then again, I know what a hacking knot is. So, grains of salt as needed.
    A harpishcordish tone seems exactly right for the intersection of Gould and Bach.

  108. Will do an informal survey at the bar tonight to see if it’s a British vs. American English thing or if I’m just a dullard about bollards.
    OK, I know what a bollard is. But then again, I know what a hacking knot is. So, grains of salt as needed.
    A harpishcordish tone seems exactly right for the intersection of Gould and Bach.

  109. Perahia is great.
    If you haven’t listened to his Mozart concertos, do. The clarity and beauty of his interpretation is wonderful.

  110. Perahia is great.
    If you haven’t listened to his Mozart concertos, do. The clarity and beauty of his interpretation is wonderful.

  113. Nigel – This is kind of rambling, but cute.
    I suppose “post” is as good a word as any, but (maybe because of Shaw) I think of a bollard as something near the sea, and I have no idea what I’d call the things in that link’s top picture on the left, i.e. thingies used along roads and not near piers.
    Maybe, like the blogger, I’d call them “posts.” Or “barrier thingies.” 😉

  114. Nigel – This is kind of rambling, but cute.
    I suppose “post” is as good a word as any, but (maybe because of Shaw) I think of a bollard as something near the sea, and I have no idea what I’d call the things in that link’s top picture on the left, i.e. thingies used along roads and not near piers.
    Maybe, like the blogger, I’d call them “posts.” Or “barrier thingies.” 😉

  115. hey, why not. the world is a mess, it’s in my kiss. so, lemme chuck a little jazz in the mix. but maybe stuff folks will dig.
    Hank Jones and Charlie Haden, playing old gospel chestnut “Steal Away”
    Bill Frisell, “Strawberry Fields Forever”
    Gregory Porter, “Be Good”. I don’t know what the hat is about.
    Fuck Donald Trump and the horse he rode in on. The world is still full of music. It’s in our hearts, he can’t touch it. It ain’t for sale.
    Stupid vain old man. He’ll never make anything this beautiful in a hundred lifetimes.
    Sucks to be him.

  116. hey, why not. the world is a mess, it’s in my kiss. so, lemme chuck a little jazz in the mix. but maybe stuff folks will dig.
    Hank Jones and Charlie Haden, playing old gospel chestnut “Steal Away”
    Bill Frisell, “Strawberry Fields Forever”
    Gregory Porter, “Be Good”. I don’t know what the hat is about.
    Fuck Donald Trump and the horse he rode in on. The world is still full of music. It’s in our hearts, he can’t touch it. It ain’t for sale.
    Stupid vain old man. He’ll never make anything this beautiful in a hundred lifetimes.
    Sucks to be him.

  117. thanks, russell
    “old gospel chestnut ‘Steal Away'” is a favorite of mine — maybe that’s my way into jazz, relatively simple songs that I already know and love, so that I can hear the “conversation” that’s going on a little better.
    I really liked that one, and also the Bill Frisell “Moon River” that followed Strawberry Fields at autoplay’s discretion.

  118. thanks, russell
    “old gospel chestnut ‘Steal Away'” is a favorite of mine — maybe that’s my way into jazz, relatively simple songs that I already know and love, so that I can hear the “conversation” that’s going on a little better.
    I really liked that one, and also the Bill Frisell “Moon River” that followed Strawberry Fields at autoplay’s discretion.

  119. I indulge a kind of perverse snobbery in refusing to listen to (or enjoy listening to) Baroque music played on the piano. No Bach on the piano, ever, for me. Except for Glenn Gould. That SOB was really something.
    I also realized this evening that going from Frank Zappa to Bach as listening material works strangely well. That pervert could sure write a song.

  120. I indulge a kind of perverse snobbery in refusing to listen to (or enjoy listening to) Baroque music played on the piano. No Bach on the piano, ever, for me. Except for Glenn Gould. That SOB was really something.
    I also realized this evening that going from Frank Zappa to Bach as listening material works strangely well. That pervert could sure write a song.

  121. Also, let me also say I’m glad you weren’t hurt, GftNC, when you struck the bollard. There aren’t so many people around who go by the name of one of my favorite Dylan songs that we can afford to lose them.

  122. Also, let me also say I’m glad you weren’t hurt, GftNC, when you struck the bollard. There aren’t so many people around who go by the name of one of my favorite Dylan songs that we can afford to lose them.

  123. Thanks, russell, for the music, and everyone.
    I love Gould humming as he plays; like McCartney, he can’t keep his voice down when there is music.
    Perahia, of course.
    “nothing is real” from Strawberry Fields Forever gets me through my days.
    “Be Good” is so good. I want that to be the soundtrack from now on.

  124. Thanks, russell, for the music, and everyone.
    I love Gould humming as he plays; like McCartney, he can’t keep his voice down when there is music.
    Perahia, of course.
    “nothing is real” from Strawberry Fields Forever gets me through my days.
    “Be Good” is so good. I want that to be the soundtrack from now on.

  125. This is the Brandenburg Concerto recording I first encountered in my teens and since then everything else sounds a bit wrong to me:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztJRm4-FqHA
    It’s by “Musica Antiqua Koln” and it’s FAAAST…
    They played on original instruments and tried to recreate the performances of the time – apparently their recordings are not without detractors but I love them, though I prefer the piano for other Bach pieces.
    Gould made two recordings of the Goldberg Variations 25 years apart and they’re very interesting to compare (1955 very fast / 1981 very slow). I also like his Beethoven Sonatas, especialy the last 3 which are insane.
    He had a radio show which I believe is archived somewhere online and there’s a good documentary demystifying him a bit:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/05/movies/05gould.html

  126. This is the Brandenburg Concerto recording I first encountered in my teens and since then everything else sounds a bit wrong to me:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztJRm4-FqHA
    It’s by “Musica Antiqua Koln” and it’s FAAAST…
    They played on original instruments and tried to recreate the performances of the time – apparently their recordings are not without detractors but I love them, though I prefer the piano for other Bach pieces.
    Gould made two recordings of the Goldberg Variations 25 years apart and they’re very interesting to compare (1955 very fast / 1981 very slow). I also like his Beethoven Sonatas, especialy the last 3 which are insane.
    He had a radio show which I believe is archived somewhere online and there’s a good documentary demystifying him a bit:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/05/movies/05gould.html

  131. GftNC: I did a mischief to my car in Newcastle not long ago, and was surprised by how cheap it was to rent a replacement for a few days.

  132. GftNC: I did a mischief to my car in Newcastle not long ago, and was surprised by how cheap it was to rent a replacement for a few days.

  133. To all lollards, dullards (not that we have any), dotards (ditto) and (just possibly) mallards:
    My bollard was kind of similar to the one at top left of JanieM’s link, but made of concrete and aggregate (if that’s not a tautology), and approximately two and a half feet high. Today, it certainly does look like it picked a fight with the wrong guy. I can’t blame myself having examined it today – I continued driving straight, whereas if not blinded I would have seen that I had to veer right. To pursue the point of sapient’s New Yorker link, the bollard seems exactly the height of a toddler, and one of those could easily have been standing on that part of the kirb immediately in front of the bollard, so all in all this was a miraculously lucky escape. Also, my profligate car insurance choice seems to have included a courtesy car for the duration (it will take 2-3 weeks), so really, all things considered, a bit of inconvenience is a small price to pay.
    Meanwhile, thanks to all for kind and good wishes. I am now settling down to enjoy all the musical links.
    Fuck Donald Trump and the horse he rode in on. The world is still full of music. It’s in our hearts, he can’t touch it. It ain’t for sale.
    Amen to that.

  134. To all lollards, dullards (not that we have any), dotards (ditto) and (just possibly) mallards:
    My bollard was kind of similar to the one at top left of JanieM’s link, but made of concrete and aggregate (if that’s not a tautology), and approximately two and a half feet high. Today, it certainly does look like it picked a fight with the wrong guy. I can’t blame myself having examined it today – I continued driving straight, whereas if not blinded I would have seen that I had to veer right. To pursue the point of sapient’s New Yorker link, the bollard seems exactly the height of a toddler, and one of those could easily have been standing on that part of the kirb immediately in front of the bollard, so all in all this was a miraculously lucky escape. Also, my profligate car insurance choice seems to have included a courtesy car for the duration (it will take 2-3 weeks), so really, all things considered, a bit of inconvenience is a small price to pay.
    Meanwhile, thanks to all for kind and good wishes. I am now settling down to enjoy all the musical links.
    Fuck Donald Trump and the horse he rode in on. The world is still full of music. It’s in our hearts, he can’t touch it. It ain’t for sale.
    Amen to that.

  135. Bill Frisell’s Strawberry Fields Forever was completely blissful – it’s my favourite Beatles song, so that also helps.
    Gregory Porter’s on Jools very often, it’s not just the crazy hat (which he is always wearing), what wasn’t very visible in this video is that it also connects with and seems to sort of control his beard. I have wondered in the past if it is a religious thing, like sikhs and their turbans….

  136. Bill Frisell’s Strawberry Fields Forever was completely blissful – it’s my favourite Beatles song, so that also helps.
    Gregory Porter’s on Jools very often, it’s not just the crazy hat (which he is always wearing), what wasn’t very visible in this video is that it also connects with and seems to sort of control his beard. I have wondered in the past if it is a religious thing, like sikhs and their turbans….

  137. The Wall Street Journal’s 24/7 put together a list of 50 best US cities to live in. Three of the top five are Denver suburbs. We live in #3 on the list. Skimming down the list, it’s clear that whatever criteria they used, those really favor largish suburban cities.
    The New York print media seems to be suffering some Colorado envy. This list, and the NYTimes Upshot picked Denver to be the winner in the Amazon HQ2 competition.

  138. The Wall Street Journal’s 24/7 put together a list of 50 best US cities to live in. Three of the top five are Denver suburbs. We live in #3 on the list. Skimming down the list, it’s clear that whatever criteria they used, those really favor largish suburban cities.
    The New York print media seems to be suffering some Colorado envy. This list, and the NYTimes Upshot picked Denver to be the winner in the Amazon HQ2 competition.

  139. I indulge a kind of perverse snobbery in refusing to listen to (or enjoy listening to) Baroque music played on the piano. No Bach on the piano, ever, for me. Except for Glenn Gould. That SOB was really something.
    I respect, but can’t agree with this. The piano adds a dimension of (must be controlled) expressivity that I wont willingly lose. But yes, of course, about Gould.
    I also realized this evening that going from Frank Zappa to Bach as listening material works strangely well. That pervert could sure write a song.
    Zappa wasn’t a total slouch, either…

  140. I indulge a kind of perverse snobbery in refusing to listen to (or enjoy listening to) Baroque music played on the piano. No Bach on the piano, ever, for me. Except for Glenn Gould. That SOB was really something.
    I respect, but can’t agree with this. The piano adds a dimension of (must be controlled) expressivity that I wont willingly lose. But yes, of course, about Gould.
    I also realized this evening that going from Frank Zappa to Bach as listening material works strangely well. That pervert could sure write a song.
    Zappa wasn’t a total slouch, either…

  143. Donald, that is a really, really fascinating article. Especially since I have been listening to the (empassioned) discussions going on at the IETF over Internet security.
    And just the thought of some of the flaming liberals I know becoming 2nd Amendment (as reinterprete) fans brings a smile.

  144. Donald, that is a really, really fascinating article. Especially since I have been listening to the (empassioned) discussions going on at the IETF over Internet security.
    And just the thought of some of the flaming liberals I know becoming 2nd Amendment (as reinterprete) fans brings a smile.

  145. Raleigh @ #10 !

    In Raleigh, 50.8% of adults have at least a bachelor’s degree, far more than the 31.3% national share.

    and we’re surrounded by a vast sea of … North Carolina.

  146. Raleigh @ #10 !

    In Raleigh, 50.8% of adults have at least a bachelor’s degree, far more than the 31.3% national share.

    and we’re surrounded by a vast sea of … North Carolina.

  147. Re:Donald’s article
    “The problem is that the disparity of destructive power between the weaponry of the government and the weaponry that people can own has become too great. Even if all citizens were armed with fully automatic assault rifles, this arsenal would pale in comparison to the firepower available to state and local police forces, never mind the world-ending power of the national armed forces.”
    I was thinking about this the other night. I am not so sure how it would work out in practice, but I deny that an armed citizenry would go down so easy in a civil war. There are some recent incidents, like Dallas, and we could remember the militia Shia vs Sunni period after the US invasion of Iraq.
    Gov’t would have to worry about urban warfare, collateral damage, destruction of the political economy, and soldiers running away from the brutality or switching sides. Just cause the tyranny has nukes, doesn’t mean they’ll use them against their own people.
    The trick here is to disperse and intersperse, to mix in complicated spatial ways with your enemies or non-combatants. ISIS used some of that.
    Course, with all the Democrats in coastal cities huddling together, a Right tyranny would have less of a problem in America.

  148. Re:Donald’s article
    “The problem is that the disparity of destructive power between the weaponry of the government and the weaponry that people can own has become too great. Even if all citizens were armed with fully automatic assault rifles, this arsenal would pale in comparison to the firepower available to state and local police forces, never mind the world-ending power of the national armed forces.”
    I was thinking about this the other night. I am not so sure how it would work out in practice, but I deny that an armed citizenry would go down so easy in a civil war. There are some recent incidents, like Dallas, and we could remember the militia Shia vs Sunni period after the US invasion of Iraq.
    Gov’t would have to worry about urban warfare, collateral damage, destruction of the political economy, and soldiers running away from the brutality or switching sides. Just cause the tyranny has nukes, doesn’t mean they’ll use them against their own people.
    The trick here is to disperse and intersperse, to mix in complicated spatial ways with your enemies or non-combatants. ISIS used some of that.
    Course, with all the Democrats in coastal cities huddling together, a Right tyranny would have less of a problem in America.

  149. Oh, and in response to the lack of necessity for AR-15s mentioned above, Karl Marx in the quote listed *cannons*. Artillery.
    Of course you want range weapons and area effect weapons. The point is not to defend your house or hunt bunnies, but to kill gov’t soldiers in resistance or as deterrent.
    Personal nukes or chemicals would be abused, so I don’t go that far.

  150. Oh, and in response to the lack of necessity for AR-15s mentioned above, Karl Marx in the quote listed *cannons*. Artillery.
    Of course you want range weapons and area effect weapons. The point is not to defend your house or hunt bunnies, but to kill gov’t soldiers in resistance or as deterrent.
    Personal nukes or chemicals would be abused, so I don’t go that far.

  151. The article that Donald posted is based on a false premise, and cites links that point out the falsity of the premise.
    The “well regulated militias” were not a defense against tyrannical government, but a way to deal with threats to the government (in other words, citizen armies to fight rebellions). In fact, laws required people to have guns and to show up with them to practice.
    It is fascinating that an article can be wrong in so many ways.

  152. The article that Donald posted is based on a false premise, and cites links that point out the falsity of the premise.
    The “well regulated militias” were not a defense against tyrannical government, but a way to deal with threats to the government (in other words, citizen armies to fight rebellions). In fact, laws required people to have guns and to show up with them to practice.
    It is fascinating that an article can be wrong in so many ways.

  153. For anybody who is interested in the question of whether torture works in obtaining information, as opposed to whether it is wrong, the following is the “long read” in today’s Guardian, and is very interesting. It is subheaded:
    Expert interrogators know torture doesn’t work – but until now, no one could prove it. By analysing hundreds of top-secret interviews with terror suspects, two British scientists have revolutionised the art of extracting the truth.
    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/oct/13/the-scientists-persuading-terrorists-to-spill-their-secrets

  154. For anybody who is interested in the question of whether torture works in obtaining information, as opposed to whether it is wrong, the following is the “long read” in today’s Guardian, and is very interesting. It is subheaded:
    Expert interrogators know torture doesn’t work – but until now, no one could prove it. By analysing hundreds of top-secret interviews with terror suspects, two British scientists have revolutionised the art of extracting the truth.
    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/oct/13/the-scientists-persuading-terrorists-to-spill-their-secrets

  155. I am not so sure how it would work out in practice, but I deny that an armed citizenry would go down so easy in a civil war. There are some recent incidents, like Dallas, and we could remember the militia Shia vs Sunni period after the US invasion of Iraq.
    Nobody doubts that the “armed citizenry” could kill a lot of people. How many of them would actually be Federal troops (or policemen) might be another story. And I suppose you could count on an increased body count, should the Feds get sufficiently impatient that they cease focusing on zero collateral damage.
    But be a serious threat in a civil war? That’s just delusional. It’s totally unlike, to use your examples, the incident in Dallas (was the military even involved?) or the civil war in Iraq (both sides with relatively equal weapons).

  156. I am not so sure how it would work out in practice, but I deny that an armed citizenry would go down so easy in a civil war. There are some recent incidents, like Dallas, and we could remember the militia Shia vs Sunni period after the US invasion of Iraq.
    Nobody doubts that the “armed citizenry” could kill a lot of people. How many of them would actually be Federal troops (or policemen) might be another story. And I suppose you could count on an increased body count, should the Feds get sufficiently impatient that they cease focusing on zero collateral damage.
    But be a serious threat in a civil war? That’s just delusional. It’s totally unlike, to use your examples, the incident in Dallas (was the military even involved?) or the civil war in Iraq (both sides with relatively equal weapons).

  157. Stopping in from the public library to say Hi! A windstorm took down our electric & FIOS lines early Tuesday morning. We got power back by noon, but the live wires were still drooping and tangled with the FIOS lines, so Verizon couldn’t do any repairs. Took until today for PSE&G to untangle them, internet should be restored on Monday. They tell me.
    It’s AMAZING how much time I have in the day when there’s no internet.

  158. Stopping in from the public library to say Hi! A windstorm took down our electric & FIOS lines early Tuesday morning. We got power back by noon, but the live wires were still drooping and tangled with the FIOS lines, so Verizon couldn’t do any repairs. Took until today for PSE&G to untangle them, internet should be restored on Monday. They tell me.
    It’s AMAZING how much time I have in the day when there’s no internet.

  161. I am not at all convinced that the violent and widespread civil unrest we seem to be headed for in the USA would ever escalate to the point of a Civil War of some organized separatist group against the (putative) federal government. And given that Russian provocateurs seem now to be targeting the USA’s military personnel and veterans, I’m not sure that the military itself is going to be functional as an institution in the face of open conflict. Same goes for law enforcement.
    IOW, Civil War 2.0 may not look at all like Civil War 1.0:
    “We keep saying, ‘It can’t happen here,’ but then, holy smokes, it can,” Mines told me after we talked, on Sunday, about Charlottesville. The pattern of civil strife has evolved worldwide over the past sixty years. Today, few civil wars involve pitched battles from trenches along neat geographic front lines. Many are low-intensity conflicts with episodic violence in constantly moving locales.
    No one should smile if progressives begin embracing the Second Amendment and continue purchasing firearms at the same rate they have been since the elections. It would mean that they too have lost faith in federal government as a remedy for societal injustice, and that political fragmentation is likely to follow.
    This will not be good for anyone and will leave another legacy of violence and generational trauma to overcome at a time when the US seems already to be faltering both politically and economically on the world stage.
    Which is exactly what Putin is aiming for and achieving, with or without active coordination.

  162. I am not at all convinced that the violent and widespread civil unrest we seem to be headed for in the USA would ever escalate to the point of a Civil War of some organized separatist group against the (putative) federal government. And given that Russian provocateurs seem now to be targeting the USA’s military personnel and veterans, I’m not sure that the military itself is going to be functional as an institution in the face of open conflict. Same goes for law enforcement.
    IOW, Civil War 2.0 may not look at all like Civil War 1.0:
    “We keep saying, ‘It can’t happen here,’ but then, holy smokes, it can,” Mines told me after we talked, on Sunday, about Charlottesville. The pattern of civil strife has evolved worldwide over the past sixty years. Today, few civil wars involve pitched battles from trenches along neat geographic front lines. Many are low-intensity conflicts with episodic violence in constantly moving locales.
    No one should smile if progressives begin embracing the Second Amendment and continue purchasing firearms at the same rate they have been since the elections. It would mean that they too have lost faith in federal government as a remedy for societal injustice, and that political fragmentation is likely to follow.
    This will not be good for anyone and will leave another legacy of violence and generational trauma to overcome at a time when the US seems already to be faltering both politically and economically on the world stage.
    Which is exactly what Putin is aiming for and achieving, with or without active coordination.

  163. But be a serious threat in a civil war? That’s just delusional.
    Yep. Speaking as the (one of the?) resident secession lunatic(s), if it comes to shooting in this age in a developed country, you lose. The only winning move is a peaceful partition. In the US, that means 38 states that believe they’ll be better off without some of the others. It’s not necessary for all 38 to agree on who “the others” are, or to agree on why they’ll be better off.
    An unanswered but interesting question is how much popular support the political class would need to pull it off. IIRC, in both the American Revolution and the Civil War it only took having about a third backing the idea to get into a shooting war.

  164. But be a serious threat in a civil war? That’s just delusional.
    Yep. Speaking as the (one of the?) resident secession lunatic(s), if it comes to shooting in this age in a developed country, you lose. The only winning move is a peaceful partition. In the US, that means 38 states that believe they’ll be better off without some of the others. It’s not necessary for all 38 to agree on who “the others” are, or to agree on why they’ll be better off.
    An unanswered but interesting question is how much popular support the political class would need to pull it off. IIRC, in both the American Revolution and the Civil War it only took having about a third backing the idea to get into a shooting war.

  165. i admit i haven’t read a lot of history about Jefferson, but it seems odd to me that someone who had just gone through so much effort and struggle to form a new nation would be so cavalier about having it overthrown, let alone being eager to give people the tools to tear it down. after all, the Constitution contains within it the ability to reshape itself and the government however people want. did he think it wasn’t going to work?
    do people ever see his writings on this stuff as really being retroactive justifications for the American revolution – and that his high-minded writings about “tree of liberty” and such were just ways of dressing up what amounted to treason?
    all the hunting rifles in the US are going to be useless against a squadron of B52s. just sayin.

  166. i admit i haven’t read a lot of history about Jefferson, but it seems odd to me that someone who had just gone through so much effort and struggle to form a new nation would be so cavalier about having it overthrown, let alone being eager to give people the tools to tear it down. after all, the Constitution contains within it the ability to reshape itself and the government however people want. did he think it wasn’t going to work?
    do people ever see his writings on this stuff as really being retroactive justifications for the American revolution – and that his high-minded writings about “tree of liberty” and such were just ways of dressing up what amounted to treason?
    all the hunting rifles in the US are going to be useless against a squadron of B52s. just sayin.

  167. The article I linked linked to this article—
    http://factmyth.com/factoids/thomas-jefferson-called-for-rebellion-and-revolution/
    The point of this second article is that Jefferson took a nuanced view of armed revolt— he didn’t want the government he helped establish to be overthrown, but a little armed rebellion every now and then was a good thing and the rebels should not be treated too harshly.
    I am pretty unsympathetic to the notion of armed rebellion in this country, but bob mcmanus has a point — if revolts by people with small arms against governments ( whether with B52’s or Bears) were that hopeless an enterprise then the history of the 20th century would be very different. It does help a lot to have allies from outside, however.

  168. The article I linked linked to this article—
    http://factmyth.com/factoids/thomas-jefferson-called-for-rebellion-and-revolution/
    The point of this second article is that Jefferson took a nuanced view of armed revolt— he didn’t want the government he helped establish to be overthrown, but a little armed rebellion every now and then was a good thing and the rebels should not be treated too harshly.
    I am pretty unsympathetic to the notion of armed rebellion in this country, but bob mcmanus has a point — if revolts by people with small arms against governments ( whether with B52’s or Bears) were that hopeless an enterprise then the history of the 20th century would be very different. It does help a lot to have allies from outside, however.

  171. Here’s an interesting article about militias, actual militias, the ones they were referring to in the 2nd Amendment. They were contemplated by states rights people as a way for states to have some power over the armed forces. They didn’t work very well, which is why the 2nd amendment was thereafter pretty much ignored until the NRA types rewrote its history to somehow enable revolution against the federal government.
    About Jefferson, and his evolving view of militias:

    The chief difference between a crowd and an army is discipline. Writing to James Monroe in 1813, Jefferson insisted that “we must train and classify the whole of our male citizens, and make military instruction a part of collegiate education.” Six years earlier Jefferson had come to the conclusion that a “well-regulated” militia demanded federal supervision of training and, borrowing a leaf from Knox, Jefferson had gone so far as to recommend “a classification which shall constitute a select and a reserve militia”—that is, a trained cadre plus a manpower pool. Early in 1810 a Senate committee reviewed this proposal but reported that “prejudices against such a mode of organization in many parts of the Union” made such a project impractical.

  172. Here’s an interesting article about militias, actual militias, the ones they were referring to in the 2nd Amendment. They were contemplated by states rights people as a way for states to have some power over the armed forces. They didn’t work very well, which is why the 2nd amendment was thereafter pretty much ignored until the NRA types rewrote its history to somehow enable revolution against the federal government.
    About Jefferson, and his evolving view of militias:

    The chief difference between a crowd and an army is discipline. Writing to James Monroe in 1813, Jefferson insisted that “we must train and classify the whole of our male citizens, and make military instruction a part of collegiate education.” Six years earlier Jefferson had come to the conclusion that a “well-regulated” militia demanded federal supervision of training and, borrowing a leaf from Knox, Jefferson had gone so far as to recommend “a classification which shall constitute a select and a reserve militia”—that is, a trained cadre plus a manpower pool. Early in 1810 a Senate committee reviewed this proposal but reported that “prejudices against such a mode of organization in many parts of the Union” made such a project impractical.

  173. so, his “a little revolution” seems to mean a local uprising against a specific action. basically, armed protest.
    he is not talking about overthrowing the federal government.

  174. so, his “a little revolution” seems to mean a local uprising against a specific action. basically, armed protest.
    he is not talking about overthrowing the federal government.

  175. Cheek, I think that is about right, based on the article in my second link. It is a lot more extreme than I would be willing to support. My first link was advocating complete security against government surveillance on the internet as a type of check against governmental overreach.
    I wonder where Jefferson would have come down in 1861? Not trolling. Genuinely curious. He was a slaveholder opposed to slavery. Gary Wills said some harsh things about Jefferson’s views on slavery some years back, but I have forgotten all the details.
    Thanks Jamie.

  176. Cheek, I think that is about right, based on the article in my second link. It is a lot more extreme than I would be willing to support. My first link was advocating complete security against government surveillance on the internet as a type of check against governmental overreach.
    I wonder where Jefferson would have come down in 1861? Not trolling. Genuinely curious. He was a slaveholder opposed to slavery. Gary Wills said some harsh things about Jefferson’s views on slavery some years back, but I have forgotten all the details.
    Thanks Jamie.

  179. John Brown’s raid on the arsenal at Harper’s Ferry (with the goal of starting an armed slave uprising) is the kind of “insurgent attack” that one might see in these modern times.
    Brown was put down, brutally. But his acts energized the paranoid overreaction of the southern slaveholders to start the US Civil War, where (after much bloodshed) THEY were put down, brutally. Yet not brutally enough, IMO.

  180. John Brown’s raid on the arsenal at Harper’s Ferry (with the goal of starting an armed slave uprising) is the kind of “insurgent attack” that one might see in these modern times.
    Brown was put down, brutally. But his acts energized the paranoid overreaction of the southern slaveholders to start the US Civil War, where (after much bloodshed) THEY were put down, brutally. Yet not brutally enough, IMO.

  181. Oh, my reading of the 2nd is that the “well regulated militias” were to defend against, oh fur instance, slave uprisings. The main point of the 2nd in practice and why state militias were mentioned were to keep the right to regulate and ban firearms in the states, so they could keep free blacks and other funny looking types from getting guns. There were a lot of state restrictions on the books in 1789.

  182. Oh, my reading of the 2nd is that the “well regulated militias” were to defend against, oh fur instance, slave uprisings. The main point of the 2nd in practice and why state militias were mentioned were to keep the right to regulate and ban firearms in the states, so they could keep free blacks and other funny looking types from getting guns. There were a lot of state restrictions on the books in 1789.

  183. Oh, my reading of the 2nd is that the “well regulated militias” were to defend against, oh fur instance, slave uprisings.
    Or, say, a bunch of white grain farmers in western Pennsylvania who refused to pay their taxes.

  184. Oh, my reading of the 2nd is that the “well regulated militias” were to defend against, oh fur instance, slave uprisings.
    Or, say, a bunch of white grain farmers in western Pennsylvania who refused to pay their taxes.

  185. IMO, the 2nd and 3rd Amendments were both “things that Americans didn’t like about pre-Revolutionary War America”, and were quickly found to be completely irrelevant.
    If they had waited until 1815 or so (certainly, post-1812, when the Militia didn’t exactly cover themselves in glory), they’d never have been passed.

  186. IMO, the 2nd and 3rd Amendments were both “things that Americans didn’t like about pre-Revolutionary War America”, and were quickly found to be completely irrelevant.
    If they had waited until 1815 or so (certainly, post-1812, when the Militia didn’t exactly cover themselves in glory), they’d never have been passed.

  187. jefferson wrote the famous “tree of liberty” thing in response to shays rebellion. from france. where he was hanging out with real live tyrants, drinking their lovely wine, romancing the ladies not to exclude young sally hemmings aka his chattel property, and having sally’s brother, aka his other chattel property, trained in french cooking.
    so, whatever. beautiful writer, not necessarily such a great guy or role model.
    shorter me: had jefferson put his own personal ass on the line, i’d find his nattering about the tree of liberty more persuasive.
    after a few years of reading whatever i came across about the 2nd A., what I conclude is:
    states were surrendering their sovereignty to the feds.
    they had mixed feelings about this,
    they did not want to be in the position of having the feds dominate them via force of arms.
    so they wanted to retain the institution of the civilian militia under local civil control, as a counter to a standing federal army.
    the distinction between “individual right” and “collective right” would not, I think, have made any sense to them. anyone who could afford a firearm probably had one. there was no local police force per se, a firearm meant personal security and free meat. folks in the 18th C, as far as I can tell, had guns like we have cars and TVs and smartphones.
    and, you employed your firearm in the context of your participation in militia. which – the times being what they were – most adult white males participated in.
    as of 1792, you were in fact required by federal law to own a firearm and use it for that purpose.
    it was not a matter of “folks should have guns *in case* we ever need to assemble a militia”. folks had guns, and they were in the real, live, actual militia.
    it was also not a case of “me and my buddies decided to form our own militia”. the militia might be assembled under private sponsorship – i.e., colonel jones who happened to live in your county might put up the money for materiel and possibly uniforms – but it was subject to civil authority.
    it was also not a case of “me and my buddies have a gripe and we’re taking up arms”. that did actually happen, more than once, and the “me and my buddies” folks were crushed. by the militia.
    the institution of the militia no longer exists in any recognizable form. the closest thing are the various national and state guards. if you keep and bear a firearm as part of your guard obligations, i doubt anyone has a problem with it.
    the reason the militia went away is because it was a half-assed form of national defense. the swiss make it work, but switzerland is a small,politically neutral country with no global ambitions, which is located in mountainous territory which can be effectively defended from invasion by protecting a small number of passes.
    that ain’t us.
    we have a very large and robust standing army, which the founders would have been suspicious of. virtually every municipality in the country has a police force and/or other public safety organizations more or less commensurate with the local need for insuring public safety. the institution of the militia has evolved into the various guard organizations, who do good work but who neither require nor receive universal participation. all of those things have replaced the institution of the militia in american public life.
    the 2nd A is, as far as I can tell, analogous to the 3rd. it refers to institutions and practices that no longer exist.
    if you want a gun, have a gun. don’t be a knucklehead and most likely nobody will care all that much.
    but the 2nd A is about preserving the institution of a well regulated militia, under local civil controland authority, for peace-keeping and general self-defense.
    that’s why the plain language of the text refers to a well regulated militia.
    as of the dick act, that institution no longer exists. it went away because it didn’t work.
    if you want to spark a civil war, different topic. but when you go there, you are by definition outside the bounds of the constitution. you are in burn it down and start over territory.
    and, you’re on your own. bon chance.

  188. jefferson wrote the famous “tree of liberty” thing in response to shays rebellion. from france. where he was hanging out with real live tyrants, drinking their lovely wine, romancing the ladies not to exclude young sally hemmings aka his chattel property, and having sally’s brother, aka his other chattel property, trained in french cooking.
    so, whatever. beautiful writer, not necessarily such a great guy or role model.
    shorter me: had jefferson put his own personal ass on the line, i’d find his nattering about the tree of liberty more persuasive.
    after a few years of reading whatever i came across about the 2nd A., what I conclude is:
    states were surrendering their sovereignty to the feds.
    they had mixed feelings about this,
    they did not want to be in the position of having the feds dominate them via force of arms.
    so they wanted to retain the institution of the civilian militia under local civil control, as a counter to a standing federal army.
    the distinction between “individual right” and “collective right” would not, I think, have made any sense to them. anyone who could afford a firearm probably had one. there was no local police force per se, a firearm meant personal security and free meat. folks in the 18th C, as far as I can tell, had guns like we have cars and TVs and smartphones.
    and, you employed your firearm in the context of your participation in militia. which – the times being what they were – most adult white males participated in.
    as of 1792, you were in fact required by federal law to own a firearm and use it for that purpose.
    it was not a matter of “folks should have guns *in case* we ever need to assemble a militia”. folks had guns, and they were in the real, live, actual militia.
    it was also not a case of “me and my buddies decided to form our own militia”. the militia might be assembled under private sponsorship – i.e., colonel jones who happened to live in your county might put up the money for materiel and possibly uniforms – but it was subject to civil authority.
    it was also not a case of “me and my buddies have a gripe and we’re taking up arms”. that did actually happen, more than once, and the “me and my buddies” folks were crushed. by the militia.
    the institution of the militia no longer exists in any recognizable form. the closest thing are the various national and state guards. if you keep and bear a firearm as part of your guard obligations, i doubt anyone has a problem with it.
    the reason the militia went away is because it was a half-assed form of national defense. the swiss make it work, but switzerland is a small,politically neutral country with no global ambitions, which is located in mountainous territory which can be effectively defended from invasion by protecting a small number of passes.
    that ain’t us.
    we have a very large and robust standing army, which the founders would have been suspicious of. virtually every municipality in the country has a police force and/or other public safety organizations more or less commensurate with the local need for insuring public safety. the institution of the militia has evolved into the various guard organizations, who do good work but who neither require nor receive universal participation. all of those things have replaced the institution of the militia in american public life.
    the 2nd A is, as far as I can tell, analogous to the 3rd. it refers to institutions and practices that no longer exist.
    if you want a gun, have a gun. don’t be a knucklehead and most likely nobody will care all that much.
    but the 2nd A is about preserving the institution of a well regulated militia, under local civil controland authority, for peace-keeping and general self-defense.
    that’s why the plain language of the text refers to a well regulated militia.
    as of the dick act, that institution no longer exists. it went away because it didn’t work.
    if you want to spark a civil war, different topic. but when you go there, you are by definition outside the bounds of the constitution. you are in burn it down and start over territory.
    and, you’re on your own. bon chance.

  189. if you keep and bear a firearm as part of your guard obligations, i doubt anyone has a problem with it.
    Honest question: Are there Guard outfits where you can just show up with your own weapon? Or does the Guard issue you a weapon if/when you need one? Certainly if I were doing logistics for the Guard I’d be worried about consistency of ammunition, repair parts, etc.

  190. if you keep and bear a firearm as part of your guard obligations, i doubt anyone has a problem with it.
    Honest question: Are there Guard outfits where you can just show up with your own weapon? Or does the Guard issue you a weapon if/when you need one? Certainly if I were doing logistics for the Guard I’d be worried about consistency of ammunition, repair parts, etc.

  191. All of the angles regarding revolt have shifted dramatically since November 9, 2016.
    These are the ones with the weapons:
    https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/10/what-white-nationalists-where-here.html
    key quote “I love President Trump. He’s really evolved… He has a biblical worldview now as opposed to just a billionaire’s worldview.”
    A biblical worldview? That crazy woman is allowed to walk around, probably with guns.
    Damaged, sick, malignant, dangerous snowflakes:
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/10/16/birth-of-a-white-supremacist
    Their champions occupy the White House and parts of Congress, so the fucks cited above aren’t looking to overthrow the government, other than the decent Americans serving in the bureaucracy, who they’d be happy to fucking kill, they ARE the government.
    Who do we think the rump/republican government and the white nationalist scum and those who quietly support them among the percentage of Americans who own most of the weapons in the hands of the citizenry are going to slaughter when push comes to shove?
    Each other?
    Who will ICE and the INS, all armed, side with? Who will the U.S. military side with. Who will the FBI side with? Who will so-called Homeland Security, all armed. side with?
    Us?
    We’re sitting ducks.

  192. All of the angles regarding revolt have shifted dramatically since November 9, 2016.
    These are the ones with the weapons:
    https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/10/what-white-nationalists-where-here.html
    key quote “I love President Trump. He’s really evolved… He has a biblical worldview now as opposed to just a billionaire’s worldview.”
    A biblical worldview? That crazy woman is allowed to walk around, probably with guns.
    Damaged, sick, malignant, dangerous snowflakes:
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/10/16/birth-of-a-white-supremacist
    Their champions occupy the White House and parts of Congress, so the fucks cited above aren’t looking to overthrow the government, other than the decent Americans serving in the bureaucracy, who they’d be happy to fucking kill, they ARE the government.
    Who do we think the rump/republican government and the white nationalist scum and those who quietly support them among the percentage of Americans who own most of the weapons in the hands of the citizenry are going to slaughter when push comes to shove?
    Each other?
    Who will ICE and the INS, all armed, side with? Who will the U.S. military side with. Who will the FBI side with? Who will so-called Homeland Security, all armed. side with?
    Us?
    We’re sitting ducks.

  199. http://www.publicbooks.org/big-picture-resource-extraction/
    Keep ’em untrained, with minimal health insurance, no unions.
    Arm them with weapons of war.
    Let the russians and eastern european bots brainwash them, convince them of their victimization and rachet up their hate for the Other, during election campaigns.
    But most of all, keep em glassy-eyed and doped up:
    https://www.balloon-juice.com/2017/10/15/no-info-for-the-dea/
    The republican party is The Force For Evil in the world.
    It’s a biblical worldview.
    Their Bible doesn’t have a happy ending for most of the rest of the world, including us.

  200. http://www.publicbooks.org/big-picture-resource-extraction/
    Keep ’em untrained, with minimal health insurance, no unions.
    Arm them with weapons of war.
    Let the russians and eastern european bots brainwash them, convince them of their victimization and rachet up their hate for the Other, during election campaigns.
    But most of all, keep em glassy-eyed and doped up:
    https://www.balloon-juice.com/2017/10/15/no-info-for-the-dea/
    The republican party is The Force For Evil in the world.
    It’s a biblical worldview.
    Their Bible doesn’t have a happy ending for most of the rest of the world, including us.

  201. So if the 2nd Amendment was for states rights vs the Federal government, wouldn’t the most visible current manifestation be something like the sanctuary cities movement?
    I mean, you’ve got local government simply declining to give the Feds assistance that they have become accustomed to. So not actually fighting back; more like passive resistance. And apparently sufficiently effective that the traditional enthusiasts for states’ rights are going crazy. (Ironically amusing, that.)

  202. So if the 2nd Amendment was for states rights vs the Federal government, wouldn’t the most visible current manifestation be something like the sanctuary cities movement?
    I mean, you’ve got local government simply declining to give the Feds assistance that they have become accustomed to. So not actually fighting back; more like passive resistance. And apparently sufficiently effective that the traditional enthusiasts for states’ rights are going crazy. (Ironically amusing, that.)

  205. also ironically amusing: Law And Order types are the same people who insist they will be the first to overthrow the government if they don’t like what it does.
    ugly bags of mostly grievances.

  206. also ironically amusing: Law And Order types are the same people who insist they will be the first to overthrow the government if they don’t like what it does.
    ugly bags of mostly grievances.

  213. gorka, bannon, ingraham. i’m finding the term vermin less and less offensive.
    these folks have no respect for popular democratic governance or institutions. they have an agenda, and they are going to do their best to impose it on everyone else.
    if your first reaction to that is “lefties do it, too”, you are part of the problem. this is not about left vs right. it’s about reactionary authoritarianism vs democratic self-governance.
    these people are dangerous. they are a threat to the united states as a constitutional republic.
    there is no middle here. we’re all going to have to pick a side.
    easy for me, I don’t claim any association with any organization, institution, political party, or freaking bridge club that has anything to do with these creeps.
    republicans, conservatives, “family values” folks are going to have to make a choice. I don’t think the “I’m a conservative, but not like *those* conservatives” thing has a lot of legs left. I don’t think the “I’m a Republican, but not like *those* Republicans” thing has a lot of legs left.
    Not your fault, but assholes have stolen your party and your political identity. They’re not leaving you any middle ground. Don’t look for it, you won’t find it. It’s no longer there.
    grifters and nazis. I’m not speaking metaphorically. reactionary thugs who nurse violent resentful fantasies of violence toward their neighbors and fellow citizens. and not just fantasies. and randian greedheads who think they’re fucking ubermenschen deserving of every dime they can scam.
    that is the modern conservative movement.
    you all are going to have to distance yourselves from them, or get sucked into the mire. they’re not going to allow you a middle ground.

  214. gorka, bannon, ingraham. i’m finding the term vermin less and less offensive.
    these folks have no respect for popular democratic governance or institutions. they have an agenda, and they are going to do their best to impose it on everyone else.
    if your first reaction to that is “lefties do it, too”, you are part of the problem. this is not about left vs right. it’s about reactionary authoritarianism vs democratic self-governance.
    these people are dangerous. they are a threat to the united states as a constitutional republic.
    there is no middle here. we’re all going to have to pick a side.
    easy for me, I don’t claim any association with any organization, institution, political party, or freaking bridge club that has anything to do with these creeps.
    republicans, conservatives, “family values” folks are going to have to make a choice. I don’t think the “I’m a conservative, but not like *those* conservatives” thing has a lot of legs left. I don’t think the “I’m a Republican, but not like *those* Republicans” thing has a lot of legs left.
    Not your fault, but assholes have stolen your party and your political identity. They’re not leaving you any middle ground. Don’t look for it, you won’t find it. It’s no longer there.
    grifters and nazis. I’m not speaking metaphorically. reactionary thugs who nurse violent resentful fantasies of violence toward their neighbors and fellow citizens. and not just fantasies. and randian greedheads who think they’re fucking ubermenschen deserving of every dime they can scam.
    that is the modern conservative movement.
    you all are going to have to distance yourselves from them, or get sucked into the mire. they’re not going to allow you a middle ground.

  215. you all are going to have to distance yourselves from them, or get sucked into the mire. they’re not going to allow you a middle ground.
    Thank you for this.
    In my spare time I’ve been helping out on some issues involving immigrants here in VA. Come to find out, the state courts here (assisted by a Republican general assembly) have (arguably – it’s still somewhat up in the air) screwed children fleeing violence from Central America.
    Kids. The Republican Nazis hate kids. The kids are being treated like “vermin”. By the vermin.

  216. you all are going to have to distance yourselves from them, or get sucked into the mire. they’re not going to allow you a middle ground.
    Thank you for this.
    In my spare time I’ve been helping out on some issues involving immigrants here in VA. Come to find out, the state courts here (assisted by a Republican general assembly) have (arguably – it’s still somewhat up in the air) screwed children fleeing violence from Central America.
    Kids. The Republican Nazis hate kids. The kids are being treated like “vermin”. By the vermin.

  217. I was going to look up Christopher Hitchens’ old stuff defending the Kurds, who need defending, against Saddam Hussein, as we were lying to ourselves and embarking on the stupidity AND the artificial stupidity (because our native American stupidity was not sufficient for the job at hand) of the Republican Party’s (yes, yes, Clinton voted for it, so it’s all HER fault, I guess) invasion of Iraq, but I’m not up to it.
    https://www.balloon-juice.com/2017/10/15/conflicting-reports-from-kirkuk/
    OK, I broke down and flushed out the national “conversation” we had about our pristine, exceptional intentions in Iraq:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pqg8Z21Pvh4

  218. I was going to look up Christopher Hitchens’ old stuff defending the Kurds, who need defending, against Saddam Hussein, as we were lying to ourselves and embarking on the stupidity AND the artificial stupidity (because our native American stupidity was not sufficient for the job at hand) of the Republican Party’s (yes, yes, Clinton voted for it, so it’s all HER fault, I guess) invasion of Iraq, but I’m not up to it.
    https://www.balloon-juice.com/2017/10/15/conflicting-reports-from-kirkuk/
    OK, I broke down and flushed out the national “conversation” we had about our pristine, exceptional intentions in Iraq:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pqg8Z21Pvh4

  219. Well russell remember back when Karl Rove was the worst conservative around? Yesterday he was asked if the Republican mainstream should worry about Steve Bannon and he pretty much laughed.
    Yesterday also Lindsey Graham basically said the President shouldn’t continue illegal payments to the insurance companies, and the health insurance issue should get fixed by Congress.
    Aside from OMG block grants there seems to be actual Republicans still there, not even counting Jeff Flake, and the new gen RINO governors.
    With the alternative I have I will just stick it out.
    You can’t declare away the middle or the actual conservative right. We still exist and the party will move back there.

  220. Well russell remember back when Karl Rove was the worst conservative around? Yesterday he was asked if the Republican mainstream should worry about Steve Bannon and he pretty much laughed.
    Yesterday also Lindsey Graham basically said the President shouldn’t continue illegal payments to the insurance companies, and the health insurance issue should get fixed by Congress.
    Aside from OMG block grants there seems to be actual Republicans still there, not even counting Jeff Flake, and the new gen RINO governors.
    With the alternative I have I will just stick it out.
    You can’t declare away the middle or the actual conservative right. We still exist and the party will move back there.

  221. We still exist and the party will move back there.
    no, it won’t.
    “sir, please make my next batch of meat several shades redder” is something no seething mob ever requested.

  222. We still exist and the party will move back there.
    no, it won’t.
    “sir, please make my next batch of meat several shades redder” is something no seething mob ever requested.

  223. “sir, please make my next batch of meat several shades redder”
    umm…
    “sir, please make my next batch of meat several shades less red”
    damn these dark mornings.

  224. “sir, please make my next batch of meat several shades redder”
    umm…
    “sir, please make my next batch of meat several shades less red”
    damn these dark mornings.

  225. We still exist and the party will move back there.
    maybe, but sitting on your butt and saying it’ll all be fine won’t make that happen.
    nobody gives a crap what Karl rove says.
    deeds not words.

  226. We still exist and the party will move back there.
    maybe, but sitting on your butt and saying it’ll all be fine won’t make that happen.
    nobody gives a crap what Karl rove says.
    deeds not words.

  227. You mean like getting Trump to fire Bannon?
    Or have Sessions send someone to help prosecute a hate crime?
    Or not pass an incomplete ACA replacement?
    Or make a tax plan that actually helps the middle class?
    Policy eventually wins.

  228. You mean like getting Trump to fire Bannon?
    Or have Sessions send someone to help prosecute a hate crime?
    Or not pass an incomplete ACA replacement?
    Or make a tax plan that actually helps the middle class?
    Policy eventually wins.

  229. Policy eventually wins.
    You need a clear definition of “policy” and “win” for this to make any sense at all.
    What’s true is that some kind of policy will eventually be implemented. What that looks like is an open question.
    My larger point is that your party, and your “movement”, is full of creeps. Starting right at the top.
    As far as “centrists” and “moderates”, Lindsay Graham is not a centrist or a moderate. Karl Rove is not by god a centrist or a moderate. Mitch McConnell is not a centrist or a moderate. Paul Ryan is not a centrist or a moderate. Jeff Flake is not a centrist or a moderate.
    I think you mistake “centrist” for “not an obvious flaming asshole”. Which could apply to Graham or Flake, probably could not apply to the others.
    I’m a centrist. Those folks are not.
    The POTUS and his circle and all of the folks spouting off at the “Values Summit” are creeps. Greedy vain weirdos, with disordered antisocial personalities and characters.
    That’s the public face of your party and movement.
    Not my circus.
    I’m sure it will all be fine.
    Actually, what I’m sure of is that you’ll get your tax cut. Markets are holding up pretty well, too.
    Is that what happy days means for “conservatives” nowadays?
    Enjoy it.

  230. Policy eventually wins.
    You need a clear definition of “policy” and “win” for this to make any sense at all.
    What’s true is that some kind of policy will eventually be implemented. What that looks like is an open question.
    My larger point is that your party, and your “movement”, is full of creeps. Starting right at the top.
    As far as “centrists” and “moderates”, Lindsay Graham is not a centrist or a moderate. Karl Rove is not by god a centrist or a moderate. Mitch McConnell is not a centrist or a moderate. Paul Ryan is not a centrist or a moderate. Jeff Flake is not a centrist or a moderate.
    I think you mistake “centrist” for “not an obvious flaming asshole”. Which could apply to Graham or Flake, probably could not apply to the others.
    I’m a centrist. Those folks are not.
    The POTUS and his circle and all of the folks spouting off at the “Values Summit” are creeps. Greedy vain weirdos, with disordered antisocial personalities and characters.
    That’s the public face of your party and movement.
    Not my circus.
    I’m sure it will all be fine.
    Actually, what I’m sure of is that you’ll get your tax cut. Markets are holding up pretty well, too.
    Is that what happy days means for “conservatives” nowadays?
    Enjoy it.

  231. Re: The Count’s BJ link on Kirkuk:
    How refreshing it is to have what are ostensibly two sets of “good guys” fighting against each other in Iraq, as opposed to the bad guys that have been fighting against each other in Syria. It’s whole ‘nother kind of ambiguity.
    Where are Alan Ladd and Jack Palance when you need them?

  232. Re: The Count’s BJ link on Kirkuk:
    How refreshing it is to have what are ostensibly two sets of “good guys” fighting against each other in Iraq, as opposed to the bad guys that have been fighting against each other in Syria. It’s whole ‘nother kind of ambiguity.
    Where are Alan Ladd and Jack Palance when you need them?

  233. Or not pass an incomplete ACA replacement?
    I am reluctant to give much credit for “our attempt to do something bad failed”.
    From the perspective of my primary policy concern (summarized as keeping the lights on in the long term without baking the planet or too much other environmental damage), the last nine months have been a disaster. The only good news is that the federal courts are forcing the Administration to go slowly.

  234. Or not pass an incomplete ACA replacement?
    I am reluctant to give much credit for “our attempt to do something bad failed”.
    From the perspective of my primary policy concern (summarized as keeping the lights on in the long term without baking the planet or too much other environmental damage), the last nine months have been a disaster. The only good news is that the federal courts are forcing the Administration to go slowly.

  237. My larger point is that your party, and your “movement”, is full of creeps. Starting right at the top.
    Russell, it’s a fair point. But I’m old enough to remember when there were a pretty serious number of creeps in the Democratic Party. (And making similar Bannonite “our way or the highway” comments about them as well.) But the Democratic Party eventually got rid of most of them.
    Granted, they never got quite as much of a hold on the Democratic Party as the alt-right et al have gotten on the GOP. But it does suggest that the situation may not be as utterly hopeless as you suggest. Not that it’s not bad, but not hopeless.

  238. My larger point is that your party, and your “movement”, is full of creeps. Starting right at the top.
    Russell, it’s a fair point. But I’m old enough to remember when there were a pretty serious number of creeps in the Democratic Party. (And making similar Bannonite “our way or the highway” comments about them as well.) But the Democratic Party eventually got rid of most of them.
    Granted, they never got quite as much of a hold on the Democratic Party as the alt-right et al have gotten on the GOP. But it does suggest that the situation may not be as utterly hopeless as you suggest. Not that it’s not bad, but not hopeless.

  239. Or make a tax plan that actually helps the middle class?
    Krugman. Still shrill, after all these years.
    Not that it’s not bad, but not hopeless.
    I don’t think the situation is hopeless. I think people who consider themselves conservative, or (R), need to do a head check and decide what they’re going to do about it.
    Gorka’s a new kid on the block, but a lot of the folks I’m talking about have been around a long time. They’ve been given a platform, by the (R) party and the conservative movement.
    Quit giving them that platform.
    You can say “hey, that’s not me”, but somebody’s doing it. It sure as hell is not me or anyone like me.

  240. Or make a tax plan that actually helps the middle class?
    Krugman. Still shrill, after all these years.
    Not that it’s not bad, but not hopeless.
    I don’t think the situation is hopeless. I think people who consider themselves conservative, or (R), need to do a head check and decide what they’re going to do about it.
    Gorka’s a new kid on the block, but a lot of the folks I’m talking about have been around a long time. They’ve been given a platform, by the (R) party and the conservative movement.
    Quit giving them that platform.
    You can say “hey, that’s not me”, but somebody’s doing it. It sure as hell is not me or anyone like me.

  241. Krugman is partisan who sold out his actual profession years ago. Calling him an economist is like calling Stephanopoulos a news man, or Trump presidential.

  242. Krugman is partisan who sold out his actual profession years ago. Calling him an economist is like calling Stephanopoulos a news man, or Trump presidential.

  247. Krugman is partisan who sold out his actual profession years ago. Calling him an economist is like calling Stephanopoulos a news man, or Trump presidential.
    Yeah, well, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.
    Of course, there’s a link that will take you to words you can read. You could read those words and address their meaning directly. You could refute the actual content of the article. It’s fairly specific and based in verifiable/refutable assertions of fact.

  248. Krugman is partisan who sold out his actual profession years ago. Calling him an economist is like calling Stephanopoulos a news man, or Trump presidential.
    Yeah, well, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.
    Of course, there’s a link that will take you to words you can read. You could read those words and address their meaning directly. You could refute the actual content of the article. It’s fairly specific and based in verifiable/refutable assertions of fact.

  251. Krugman is partisan who sold out his actual profession years ago.
    OK, your turn. Show me the tax cut that is going to be wonderful for the middle class.
    Show me the (R) plan for replacing the ACA, and explain how it’s going to improve anyone’s life.
    (R) policies are about taking money out of the middle class’s pockets and shifting it into the pockets of wealthy people.
    If you think otherwise, show me. Because that’s been the agenda, and the reality, for my entire lifetime.
    Trickle down! Laffer curve! Let wealthy people get even wealthier, and they’ll spread it around.
    There’s a lot getting spread around, but it don’t look like money to me.
    Not my circus. I just have to live in it, and it is pissing me the hell off.
    Quit giving these jokers a platform.

  252. Krugman is partisan who sold out his actual profession years ago.
    OK, your turn. Show me the tax cut that is going to be wonderful for the middle class.
    Show me the (R) plan for replacing the ACA, and explain how it’s going to improve anyone’s life.
    (R) policies are about taking money out of the middle class’s pockets and shifting it into the pockets of wealthy people.
    If you think otherwise, show me. Because that’s been the agenda, and the reality, for my entire lifetime.
    Trickle down! Laffer curve! Let wealthy people get even wealthier, and they’ll spread it around.
    There’s a lot getting spread around, but it don’t look like money to me.
    Not my circus. I just have to live in it, and it is pissing me the hell off.
    Quit giving these jokers a platform.

  253. But I’m old enough to remember when there were a pretty serious number of creeps in the Democratic Party.
    You mean folks like James O. Eastland, Richard Russell, Strom Thurmond, John Stennis, et al? If you remember them you might also remember that those types either died or became Republicans.
    There ilk are not found in the Democratic Party any longer.
    As one observer repeatedly notes, a prion disease has taken over the GOP, and nearly every Republican is infected with it to some extent.
    That is why they do nothing about it.

  254. But I’m old enough to remember when there were a pretty serious number of creeps in the Democratic Party.
    You mean folks like James O. Eastland, Richard Russell, Strom Thurmond, John Stennis, et al? If you remember them you might also remember that those types either died or became Republicans.
    There ilk are not found in the Democratic Party any longer.
    As one observer repeatedly notes, a prion disease has taken over the GOP, and nearly every Republican is infected with it to some extent.
    That is why they do nothing about it.

  255. You mean folks like James O. Eastland, Richard Russell, Strom Thurmond, John Stennis, et al? If you remember them you might also remember that those types either died or became Republicans.
    Yeah, I do remember them. And that they ended up in the Republican Party. Yes, they were creeps; also scumbags.
    But I was actually thinking of the creep types on the far left. Some of whom I knew personally.

  256. You mean folks like James O. Eastland, Richard Russell, Strom Thurmond, John Stennis, et al? If you remember them you might also remember that those types either died or became Republicans.
    Yeah, I do remember them. And that they ended up in the Republican Party. Yes, they were creeps; also scumbags.
    But I was actually thinking of the creep types on the far left. Some of whom I knew personally.

  261. Krugman is partisan who sold out his actual profession years ago. Calling him an economist is like calling Stephanopoulos a news man, or Trump presidential.
    How is being partisan different from any other given economist ?
    Name me one truly impartial arbiter economist…

  262. Krugman is partisan who sold out his actual profession years ago. Calling him an economist is like calling Stephanopoulos a news man, or Trump presidential.
    How is being partisan different from any other given economist ?
    Name me one truly impartial arbiter economist…

  263. “But I was actually thinking of the creep types on the far left. Some of whom I knew personally.”
    Any Senators in that bunch? Cabinet members? Presidential Advisors?

  264. “But I was actually thinking of the creep types on the far left. Some of whom I knew personally.”
    Any Senators in that bunch? Cabinet members? Presidential Advisors?

  267. Any Senators in that bunch?
    wj has consistently put Barb Boxer on the “far left fringe” of the Dem party. I have asked him several times to provide examples of alleged ideological “left” lunacy on her part….but so far bupkis.
    I find this both puzzling and hilarious.

  268. Any Senators in that bunch?
    wj has consistently put Barb Boxer on the “far left fringe” of the Dem party. I have asked him several times to provide examples of alleged ideological “left” lunacy on her part….but so far bupkis.
    I find this both puzzling and hilarious.

  269. Rahm’s kindof a jerk.
    Where Dems are the overwhelming majority, you will find a good deal of DINOs, because that is where the power is. Terming them a den of left wing lunatics is, to say the least, a misnomer.
    cf. Erik Loomis’ take on Dem party politics in Rhode Island.

  270. Rahm’s kindof a jerk.
    Where Dems are the overwhelming majority, you will find a good deal of DINOs, because that is where the power is. Terming them a den of left wing lunatics is, to say the least, a misnomer.
    cf. Erik Loomis’ take on Dem party politics in Rhode Island.

  271. Marty: Krugman is partisan who sold out his actual profession years ago.
    This is why, despite his many charming qualities, Marty is an ass.
    Too personal? Tough noogies. I would be delighted to discuss anything with Marty in a civil, impersonal, fact-based way that would not bring a blush to the cheek of the tenderest moderator — but that would require something like, you know, facts.
    I will spot Marty this point: Krugman is indeed a partisan. I say it’s because he is a top-notch economist who looks at the facts and concludes that sane people who are not simultaneously rich, selfish, and stupid are ill-served by most of the GOP orthodoxy.
    Marty may not agree. Let him present facts supporting his assertion that Krugman “sold out his actual profession years ago”, and we can examine them dispassionately — like the Nobel-level economists we both are.
    –TP

  272. Marty: Krugman is partisan who sold out his actual profession years ago.
    This is why, despite his many charming qualities, Marty is an ass.
    Too personal? Tough noogies. I would be delighted to discuss anything with Marty in a civil, impersonal, fact-based way that would not bring a blush to the cheek of the tenderest moderator — but that would require something like, you know, facts.
    I will spot Marty this point: Krugman is indeed a partisan. I say it’s because he is a top-notch economist who looks at the facts and concludes that sane people who are not simultaneously rich, selfish, and stupid are ill-served by most of the GOP orthodoxy.
    Marty may not agree. Let him present facts supporting his assertion that Krugman “sold out his actual profession years ago”, and we can examine them dispassionately — like the Nobel-level economists we both are.
    –TP

  275. Policy arguments should lay out the facts, the trade-offs, the priorities, and hence arrive at preferred policy.
    Priorities are partisan. If you disagree about priorities you’ll prefer different policies.
    Krugman’s argument is like that. If you disagree with him about who should benefit from tax cuts, you’ll disagree with him about the merits of the proposed cuts. Fair enough.
    The modern Republican part has discovered a different sort of argument. If the facts are inconvenient, you present alternative ‘facts’ – it doesn’t matter, only a few people are going to do the research to distinguish truth from lies. You eschew any sort of analysis – that’s elitist. Instead you jump to a ‘gut’ conclusion.
    The ugly twist is that the Republican politician’s gut always tells him to do whatever most benefits the rich.

  276. Policy arguments should lay out the facts, the trade-offs, the priorities, and hence arrive at preferred policy.
    Priorities are partisan. If you disagree about priorities you’ll prefer different policies.
    Krugman’s argument is like that. If you disagree with him about who should benefit from tax cuts, you’ll disagree with him about the merits of the proposed cuts. Fair enough.
    The modern Republican part has discovered a different sort of argument. If the facts are inconvenient, you present alternative ‘facts’ – it doesn’t matter, only a few people are going to do the research to distinguish truth from lies. You eschew any sort of analysis – that’s elitist. Instead you jump to a ‘gut’ conclusion.
    The ugly twist is that the Republican politician’s gut always tells him to do whatever most benefits the rich.

  279. The ugly twist is that the Republican politician’s gut always tells him to do whatever most benefits the rich.
    While I don’t disagree with this for the national-level Republicans, it’s not entirely true for the state- and local-level Republicans in my purplish state. There are assorted reasons why this is the case.
    I’ve long said there was a growing divide between the national Republicans and many of the state Republicans. The ACA repeal debates made that crystal clear — look at the Republican governors who supported Medicaid expansion.

  280. The ugly twist is that the Republican politician’s gut always tells him to do whatever most benefits the rich.
    While I don’t disagree with this for the national-level Republicans, it’s not entirely true for the state- and local-level Republicans in my purplish state. There are assorted reasons why this is the case.
    I’ve long said there was a growing divide between the national Republicans and many of the state Republicans. The ACA repeal debates made that crystal clear — look at the Republican governors who supported Medicaid expansion.

  281. If all you read of Krugman is is NYT editorials, then yes, it’s fair to say that he’s “not (much of) an economist”. But the fact is that it’s near impossible to fit sensible economic analysis into a NYT op-ed piece.
    If you read Krugman’s blog entries (particularly the ones that he labels as ‘WARNING: wonk inside”, you’ll see that Krugman is indeed a knowledgeable economist.
    The MSM doesn’t publish detailed supernova nucleosynthesis articles either; if the RW thought they could make milage out of it, the LIGO results would be labeled “fake news” also, too.

  282. If all you read of Krugman is is NYT editorials, then yes, it’s fair to say that he’s “not (much of) an economist”. But the fact is that it’s near impossible to fit sensible economic analysis into a NYT op-ed piece.
    If you read Krugman’s blog entries (particularly the ones that he labels as ‘WARNING: wonk inside”, you’ll see that Krugman is indeed a knowledgeable economist.
    The MSM doesn’t publish detailed supernova nucleosynthesis articles either; if the RW thought they could make milage out of it, the LIGO results would be labeled “fake news” also, too.

  287. GftNC, maybe you already found this but hey, it’s fun.
    There’s this. Also this.
    From the first link: But didn’t Todd use the term “noogy” when he gave Lisa a “dutch rub” or “burn,” knuckles rubbing on her head?
    I don’t know about the character Todd, but I know I heard (and experienced) that usage when I was in college.

  288. GftNC, maybe you already found this but hey, it’s fun.
    There’s this. Also this.
    From the first link: But didn’t Todd use the term “noogy” when he gave Lisa a “dutch rub” or “burn,” knuckles rubbing on her head?
    I don’t know about the character Todd, but I know I heard (and experienced) that usage when I was in college.

  289. The floor remains open for Marty to rebut the points Krugman makes in the NYT piece.
    I suppose if it’s fair for me to characterize the national (R) leadership as thugs, creeps, and grifters, it’s fair for Marty to characterize Krugman as a partisan.
    The fact remains that, at the national level, (R)’s are not advancing a tax reform program that is going to be “good for the middle class”. They are not advancing anything that is good for the “middle class”.
    Give it another generation, and there will be no middle class.
    The (D)’s don’t have that sorted out all that well, either, but at least they’re not about kicking people when they’re down.
    The thing that I see in common among the folks that support people like Trump et al is that they are perfectly happy to see calamity fall on somebody, as long as it’s somebody else. I personally have a really freaking hard time looking past that.
    People need to wake the hell up. Not “get woke”, just wake the hell up. Pay attention. The crap that you’re willing to see fall on other folks’ heads, is gonna fall on yours, too.
    Then what?
    Think DJT will have your back? Or McConnell, or Ryan, or any of the Breitbart Lord of the Flies crowd?
    If you find yourself in a room cheering on some guy who’s talking about all the “damage he’s gonna be able to do” to somebody else now that he’s “no longer fettered by being in government”, you have a problem. You *are* the problem.
    If you find yourself cheering the idea that some guy gets sick and dies because he can’t afford health insurance, you *are* the problem.
    If you find yourself thrilled by the idea that some poor shlub who hoboed here from Guatemala so he wouldn’t get killed in some gang BS, worked his ass off for ten years, has a family and a business or a couple of jobs, is now going to be tossed out on his ass, you *are* the problem.
    If you see justice and fairness in the idea that kids who were brought here by their parents, who have no memory of living anywhere else, are going to be sent “back” to a country they do not know and whose language they don’t even freaking speak, you *are* the problem.
    If you think that black people just need to STFU, pull up their socks, and quit bitching about stuff that happened 200 years ago, you *are* the problem.
    People need to wake the hell up. This country is not doing so well. The markets are great, the country not so much.
    I understand that people are afraid and feel unsettled and insecure. I don’t understand the idea that somebody else’s life turning into shit is going to make your life any better.
    Wake up.

  290. The floor remains open for Marty to rebut the points Krugman makes in the NYT piece.
    I suppose if it’s fair for me to characterize the national (R) leadership as thugs, creeps, and grifters, it’s fair for Marty to characterize Krugman as a partisan.
    The fact remains that, at the national level, (R)’s are not advancing a tax reform program that is going to be “good for the middle class”. They are not advancing anything that is good for the “middle class”.
    Give it another generation, and there will be no middle class.
    The (D)’s don’t have that sorted out all that well, either, but at least they’re not about kicking people when they’re down.
    The thing that I see in common among the folks that support people like Trump et al is that they are perfectly happy to see calamity fall on somebody, as long as it’s somebody else. I personally have a really freaking hard time looking past that.
    People need to wake the hell up. Not “get woke”, just wake the hell up. Pay attention. The crap that you’re willing to see fall on other folks’ heads, is gonna fall on yours, too.
    Then what?
    Think DJT will have your back? Or McConnell, or Ryan, or any of the Breitbart Lord of the Flies crowd?
    If you find yourself in a room cheering on some guy who’s talking about all the “damage he’s gonna be able to do” to somebody else now that he’s “no longer fettered by being in government”, you have a problem. You *are* the problem.
    If you find yourself cheering the idea that some guy gets sick and dies because he can’t afford health insurance, you *are* the problem.
    If you find yourself thrilled by the idea that some poor shlub who hoboed here from Guatemala so he wouldn’t get killed in some gang BS, worked his ass off for ten years, has a family and a business or a couple of jobs, is now going to be tossed out on his ass, you *are* the problem.
    If you see justice and fairness in the idea that kids who were brought here by their parents, who have no memory of living anywhere else, are going to be sent “back” to a country they do not know and whose language they don’t even freaking speak, you *are* the problem.
    If you think that black people just need to STFU, pull up their socks, and quit bitching about stuff that happened 200 years ago, you *are* the problem.
    People need to wake the hell up. This country is not doing so well. The markets are great, the country not so much.
    I understand that people are afraid and feel unsettled and insecure. I don’t understand the idea that somebody else’s life turning into shit is going to make your life any better.
    Wake up.

  293. What is a noogie?
    It’s an American variation on a traditional Bavarian cream filled pastry.
    That’s our story and we’re sticking to it.

  294. What is a noogie?
    It’s an American variation on a traditional Bavarian cream filled pastry.
    That’s our story and we’re sticking to it.

  295. The (D)’s don’t have that sorted out all that well, either, but at least they’re not about kicking people when they’re down.
    Just a thought: could you provide some evidence for that, given the actual economic numbers under Obama?
    Yeah, not trying to undermine allies here, russell, but you’re underselling Democrats (as usual) by a longshot. (Please? Stop underselling us?)

  296. The (D)’s don’t have that sorted out all that well, either, but at least they’re not about kicking people when they’re down.
    Just a thought: could you provide some evidence for that, given the actual economic numbers under Obama?
    Yeah, not trying to undermine allies here, russell, but you’re underselling Democrats (as usual) by a longshot. (Please? Stop underselling us?)

  297. If you find yourself cheering the idea that some guy gets sick and dies because he can’t afford health insurance, you *are* the problem.
    I confess that, if “some guy” is a Congressman who voted to repeal Obamacare and replace it with nothing, or someone who voted for that Congressman — OK, I’m probably not actually cheering, but my level of sympathy for his plight is pretty damn limited. Call me callous, or part of the problem, if you must.

  298. If you find yourself cheering the idea that some guy gets sick and dies because he can’t afford health insurance, you *are* the problem.
    I confess that, if “some guy” is a Congressman who voted to repeal Obamacare and replace it with nothing, or someone who voted for that Congressman — OK, I’m probably not actually cheering, but my level of sympathy for his plight is pretty damn limited. Call me callous, or part of the problem, if you must.

  299. My point is that I don’t think anyone has a really clear plan for how to restore what was lost with the decline of manufacturing in the US.
    I’m not hearing, from either side, a clear story about we get from where we are now, to a place where there is a basis for a braod and robust middle class. By middle class I mean basic financial security and an ability to build modest wealth over a lifetime.
    I don’t necessarily fault anyone for that, it’s a complicated question, the answers to which will probably depend on conditions that don’t currently exist and which can’t really be predicted.
    At a minimum, the (D)’s are committed to preserving a basic safety net. Which puts them head and shoulders above the (R)’s.
    If you think I am being unfair to the (D)’s, please take this as your cue to amend my understanding!

  300. My point is that I don’t think anyone has a really clear plan for how to restore what was lost with the decline of manufacturing in the US.
    I’m not hearing, from either side, a clear story about we get from where we are now, to a place where there is a basis for a braod and robust middle class. By middle class I mean basic financial security and an ability to build modest wealth over a lifetime.
    I don’t necessarily fault anyone for that, it’s a complicated question, the answers to which will probably depend on conditions that don’t currently exist and which can’t really be predicted.
    At a minimum, the (D)’s are committed to preserving a basic safety net. Which puts them head and shoulders above the (R)’s.
    If you think I am being unfair to the (D)’s, please take this as your cue to amend my understanding!

  301. wj, my reference is to the (R) presidential debate in 2011 when ron paul was asked a hypothetical question about a healthy 40-year-old who decided to take his chances, forgo insurance, and then got sick.
    who should pay, asked wolf blitzer?
    in a free society, paul answered, the man would be free to make his own decision and take his own chances.
    i.e., die.
    the audience loudly applauded.
    blitzer followed with, society should just let him die?
    some folks in the crowd shouted, loudly, in the affirmative.
    the whole thing struck me as ghoulish. all of it.

  302. wj, my reference is to the (R) presidential debate in 2011 when ron paul was asked a hypothetical question about a healthy 40-year-old who decided to take his chances, forgo insurance, and then got sick.
    who should pay, asked wolf blitzer?
    in a free society, paul answered, the man would be free to make his own decision and take his own chances.
    i.e., die.
    the audience loudly applauded.
    blitzer followed with, society should just let him die?
    some folks in the crowd shouted, loudly, in the affirmative.
    the whole thing struck me as ghoulish. all of it.

  303. …with the decline of manufacturing in the US.
    To be pedantic, there’s been a decline in manufacturing jobs, but not manufacturing.
    Part of the decrease in the size of the middle class is due to people moving into the upper class.

  304. …with the decline of manufacturing in the US.
    To be pedantic, there’s been a decline in manufacturing jobs, but not manufacturing.
    Part of the decrease in the size of the middle class is due to people moving into the upper class.

  305. Part of the decrease in the size of the middle class is due to people moving into the upper class
    and part, to the lower.
    look at the distribution of wealth in the us, and how it has changed over time.
    who cares if some people are really rich? i don’t, particularly. what disturbs me is the enormous size of the pie, and the very large number of folks who have virtually no piece of it.
    the dollar store is planning on doubling their number of stores. they are moving into all the places that don’t generate enough revenue per square foot for a walmart.
    sam’s getting beat at his own game.
    nothing to worry about, it will be fine. policy always wins.

  306. Part of the decrease in the size of the middle class is due to people moving into the upper class
    and part, to the lower.
    look at the distribution of wealth in the us, and how it has changed over time.
    who cares if some people are really rich? i don’t, particularly. what disturbs me is the enormous size of the pie, and the very large number of folks who have virtually no piece of it.
    the dollar store is planning on doubling their number of stores. they are moving into all the places that don’t generate enough revenue per square foot for a walmart.
    sam’s getting beat at his own game.
    nothing to worry about, it will be fine. policy always wins.

  313. thanks for the link, charles, all good food for thought,
    thanks for the link, sapient. sad to think what could have been.

  314. thanks for the link, charles, all good food for thought,
    thanks for the link, sapient. sad to think what could have been.

  319. HRC is doing the rounds here, on lots of political talk shows, getting honorary doctorates etc. It’s unbearable listening to her informed, nuanced commentary on world events, and contrasting it with the tangerine fucker-in-chief. I’m guessing almost everybody in the world, with the exception of the Saudis and the Israelis, (and small numbers of never-HRCers such as we have here), feels the same.
    p.s. Thanks for all noogie-related responses.
    Also, while I’m on, for Nigel and any other UK-based commenters or lurkers, I’m posting a link to Gina Miller’s Best for Britain site, which (using your postcode) gives you a tool for checking whether your MP has signed the letter demanding the government release the Brexit Impact Studies, which they are continuing to conceal, and if they have not there is a link for emailing them and demanding, as their constituent, that they do so. According to recent polls, the numbers are finally shifting on Brexit, and although it may be too late to reverse it (but maybe not), it is not too late to start holding the government to account.
    https://bestforbritain.org/let-there-be-light

  320. HRC is doing the rounds here, on lots of political talk shows, getting honorary doctorates etc. It’s unbearable listening to her informed, nuanced commentary on world events, and contrasting it with the tangerine fucker-in-chief. I’m guessing almost everybody in the world, with the exception of the Saudis and the Israelis, (and small numbers of never-HRCers such as we have here), feels the same.
    p.s. Thanks for all noogie-related responses.
    Also, while I’m on, for Nigel and any other UK-based commenters or lurkers, I’m posting a link to Gina Miller’s Best for Britain site, which (using your postcode) gives you a tool for checking whether your MP has signed the letter demanding the government release the Brexit Impact Studies, which they are continuing to conceal, and if they have not there is a link for emailing them and demanding, as their constituent, that they do so. According to recent polls, the numbers are finally shifting on Brexit, and although it may be too late to reverse it (but maybe not), it is not too late to start holding the government to account.
    https://bestforbritain.org/let-there-be-light

  321. ” I don’t understand the idea that somebody else’s life turning into shit is going to make your life any better.”
    No one wants someone elses life to turn to shit. We would like for state and local government and “you” the individual persons to take responsibility for your community and yourself.
    The fundamental disconnect in this discussion year after year is that Democrats/liberals expect all problems to be solved by the federal government because that way people in NY and California(and Massachusetts) get to decide the best way to solve everyone elses problems.
    As soon as there is a block grant policy then “20M people will lose insurance”, no 20M people wont have insurance paid for by the Federal government. If Kasich wants the money to cover everyone he has a state of 10s of millions of people to raise the money from. And we think he should.
    It is tiring to constantly listen to how the Republicans/conservatives are heartless because we believe that there is a better way to solve the problem, and that’s just one example.

  322. ” I don’t understand the idea that somebody else’s life turning into shit is going to make your life any better.”
    No one wants someone elses life to turn to shit. We would like for state and local government and “you” the individual persons to take responsibility for your community and yourself.
    The fundamental disconnect in this discussion year after year is that Democrats/liberals expect all problems to be solved by the federal government because that way people in NY and California(and Massachusetts) get to decide the best way to solve everyone elses problems.
    As soon as there is a block grant policy then “20M people will lose insurance”, no 20M people wont have insurance paid for by the Federal government. If Kasich wants the money to cover everyone he has a state of 10s of millions of people to raise the money from. And we think he should.
    It is tiring to constantly listen to how the Republicans/conservatives are heartless because we believe that there is a better way to solve the problem, and that’s just one example.

  323. “And we think he should”
    BTW, this should have ended “like Massachusetts did”. The state designed a plan that best supported its constituents that was reasonably successful prior to being preemoted by the ACA to some extent. It would be a really bad plan for say, Texas. but it worked for Mass.

  324. “And we think he should”
    BTW, this should have ended “like Massachusetts did”. The state designed a plan that best supported its constituents that was reasonably successful prior to being preemoted by the ACA to some extent. It would be a really bad plan for say, Texas. but it worked for Mass.

  325. It is tiring to constantly listen to how the Republicans/conservatives are heartless because we believe that there is a better way to solve the problem, and that’s just one example.
    Kansas is just one example of how Republicans solve problems at the state level.
    Then there’s California (wildfires aside), a state that recovered nicely when the Democrats took over.
    Republicans don’t know how to govern. They are, at best, an opposition party. To the extent that they’ve had a useful function in the last 40 years or so, it was to keep Democrats from over-extending their preferred programs. (That’s me being nice, BTW.)

  326. It is tiring to constantly listen to how the Republicans/conservatives are heartless because we believe that there is a better way to solve the problem, and that’s just one example.
    Kansas is just one example of how Republicans solve problems at the state level.
    Then there’s California (wildfires aside), a state that recovered nicely when the Democrats took over.
    Republicans don’t know how to govern. They are, at best, an opposition party. To the extent that they’ve had a useful function in the last 40 years or so, it was to keep Democrats from over-extending their preferred programs. (That’s me being nice, BTW.)

  327. Russell:
    “If you find yourself cheering the idea that some guy gets sick and dies because he can’t afford health insurance, you *are* the problem.”
    Marty:
    As soon as there is a block grant policy then “20M people will lose insurance”, no 20M people wont have insurance paid for by the Federal government. If Kasich wants the money to cover everyone he has a state of 10s of millions of people to raise the money from. And we think he should.”
    What part of “we” do you think you are, kemosabe?
    “If Kasich wants the money to cover everyone he has a state of 10s of millions of people to raise the money from?”
    Not in Ohio, he doesn’t.
    “It would be a really bad plan for say, Texas.”
    What is Texas’ plan? The last I looked they were electing the guys and gals cheering the sick on as they croaked.

  328. Russell:
    “If you find yourself cheering the idea that some guy gets sick and dies because he can’t afford health insurance, you *are* the problem.”
    Marty:
    As soon as there is a block grant policy then “20M people will lose insurance”, no 20M people wont have insurance paid for by the Federal government. If Kasich wants the money to cover everyone he has a state of 10s of millions of people to raise the money from. And we think he should.”
    What part of “we” do you think you are, kemosabe?
    “If Kasich wants the money to cover everyone he has a state of 10s of millions of people to raise the money from?”
    Not in Ohio, he doesn’t.
    “It would be a really bad plan for say, Texas.”
    What is Texas’ plan? The last I looked they were electing the guys and gals cheering the sick on as they croaked.

  329. And I don’t think all Republicans are heartless. Some of them believe that their preferred policies will help people in some sort of broad way (i.e. not just the rich). They’re just wrong.
    The heartless ones know what they’re doing. They just lie about it.

  330. And I don’t think all Republicans are heartless. Some of them believe that their preferred policies will help people in some sort of broad way (i.e. not just the rich). They’re just wrong.
    The heartless ones know what they’re doing. They just lie about it.

  331. “people in NY and California(and Massachusetts) get to decide the best way to solve everyone elses problems”
    You mean the people who vote for the majority party, and then find that the broken electoral system gives control of the presidency, the legislature, and the judiciary to the minority party?
    And who then get their own back by insisting on being big net funders of the federal government?

  332. “people in NY and California(and Massachusetts) get to decide the best way to solve everyone elses problems”
    You mean the people who vote for the majority party, and then find that the broken electoral system gives control of the presidency, the legislature, and the judiciary to the minority party?
    And who then get their own back by insisting on being big net funders of the federal government?

  333. “You mean the people who vote for the majority party, and then find that the broken electoral system gives control of the presidency, the legislature, and the judiciary to the minority party?
    And who then get their own back by insisting on being big net funders of the federal government?”
    The first half of this is just nonsense, thwarting the tyranny of the majority was specifically the reason for electoral college.
    The second half, well it would be awesome if those states don’t have to send so much.
    And, HSH, there are 35 states in this country run by Republicans to varying extents, pointing out one that has mixed results is not helpful. In fact I would say that most state failures are based on an over dependence on FED money.

  334. “You mean the people who vote for the majority party, and then find that the broken electoral system gives control of the presidency, the legislature, and the judiciary to the minority party?
    And who then get their own back by insisting on being big net funders of the federal government?”
    The first half of this is just nonsense, thwarting the tyranny of the majority was specifically the reason for electoral college.
    The second half, well it would be awesome if those states don’t have to send so much.
    And, HSH, there are 35 states in this country run by Republicans to varying extents, pointing out one that has mixed results is not helpful. In fact I would say that most state failures are based on an over dependence on FED money.

  335. I can’t the link now, but a republican … he has a chortle that can be heard over across state lines when the poor expire without health insurance … is proposing a law at the federal level that, once Obamacare is dead, would prohibit the states from enacting any universal health insurance scheme at the state level.
    Good luck to Massachusetts getting any semblance of Romney Universal care back.
    Further, the drive to eliminate the deduction of state and local taxes on Federal income tax returns is part and parcel of the Republican Party’s overarching strategy to cripple state government spending as well, especially in the blue states who would most likely try to take up the slack once “preexisting conditions” get to be part of their populations lives again, to such an extent that nothing but a bare bones safety net will be fiscally possible at the state and local levels.
    The Kochs, the Mercers, and the rest of the usual murderous suspects have been laying down the money at the state and local levels too and electing even more radical legislators at those levels to prevent any move by this mythical “we” Marty thinks he is part of to have a safety net at any level in the United States.
    This is a big pile of steaming dog shit with a rainbow.

  336. I can’t the link now, but a republican … he has a chortle that can be heard over across state lines when the poor expire without health insurance … is proposing a law at the federal level that, once Obamacare is dead, would prohibit the states from enacting any universal health insurance scheme at the state level.
    Good luck to Massachusetts getting any semblance of Romney Universal care back.
    Further, the drive to eliminate the deduction of state and local taxes on Federal income tax returns is part and parcel of the Republican Party’s overarching strategy to cripple state government spending as well, especially in the blue states who would most likely try to take up the slack once “preexisting conditions” get to be part of their populations lives again, to such an extent that nothing but a bare bones safety net will be fiscally possible at the state and local levels.
    The Kochs, the Mercers, and the rest of the usual murderous suspects have been laying down the money at the state and local levels too and electing even more radical legislators at those levels to prevent any move by this mythical “we” Marty thinks he is part of to have a safety net at any level in the United States.
    This is a big pile of steaming dog shit with a rainbow.

  337. Marty: … thwarting the tyranny of the majority was specifically the reason for electoral college.
    Was it Jefferson, Hamilton, or Franklin who told you that personally?
    I find it hard to believe that VA, NY, and PA really wanted to make sure that some underpopulated future states would be able to thwart them, down the road. But if you have private information, civility demands that I pretend to believe you.
    –TP

  338. Marty: … thwarting the tyranny of the majority was specifically the reason for electoral college.
    Was it Jefferson, Hamilton, or Franklin who told you that personally?
    I find it hard to believe that VA, NY, and PA really wanted to make sure that some underpopulated future states would be able to thwart them, down the road. But if you have private information, civility demands that I pretend to believe you.
    –TP

  339. The first half of this is just nonsense, thwarting the tyranny of the majority was specifically the reason for electoral college.
    please never speak of ‘the will of the people’ or ‘we’ or any other such thing again.

  340. The first half of this is just nonsense, thwarting the tyranny of the majority was specifically the reason for electoral college.
    please never speak of ‘the will of the people’ or ‘we’ or any other such thing again.

  341. No one wants someone elses life to turn to shit.
    Actually, not a few folks are totally fine with it. Happy about it, even. I know this because they say so.
    We would like for state and local government and “you” the individual persons to take responsibility for your community and yourself.
    As you wish. Best of luck.
    The fundamental disconnect in this discussion year after year is that Democrats/liberals expect all problems to be solved by the federal government
    Speaking for myself, I like the feds to be involved in issues of national scope.
    IMO that covers pretty much all of the issues raised in this thread.
    YMMV
    I get the personal responsibility thing. I’m actually kind of big on personal responsibility, myself.
    When somebody’s insistence on Personal Responsibility, complete with capital letters to indicate that it’s some kind of unquestionable imperative, means that somebody else gets to die because they were stupid and didn’t buy health insurance, I’m less of a fan.
    Moderation in all things. Common sense goes a long way.
    I’m happy to own the fact that I am a product of the environment I was raised in. NY and New England. Places with strong traditions of common action and purpose. Including via public means.
    I have no problem with people doing good and useful things through the instrument of government. That way everybody gets to have it, not just people who have “earned” it.
    Schools, roads, libraries, public transportation, basic public infrastructure and services. Not to exclude access to health care, not to exclude access to higher education.
    I’m happy when that stuff is available to everyone, and I’m happy to pay for it.
    And I understand that not everyone sees it that way, I’m just sick of the nation being freaking wedged over stuff that every other country in the damned world sorted out decades ago.
    Because we’re saddled with the mythology of the Strong Independent Rugged Individual, who Takes Responsibility For Him Or Herself.
    Or, you’re saddled with it. I have zero investment in it.
    So, screw it. You can lead a horse to water. If it’s so important to you to make a point about not being dependent on “Uncle Sugar” that you’re happy to freaking die rather than let the feds help out, far be it from me to gainsay it.
    The thing is, folks always seem to see things differently when it actually is their behind on the line.
    The folks who suddenly think gay marriage is OK when their kid comes out.
    The folks who suddenly think the ACA is OK when it pays for their medical care, or their spouse’s, or their kids.
    The folks who want those illegals deported, except for their next door neighbor. He’s one of the good ones, why does he have to go?
    And so on and so on.
    Whatever. The trend over the last 35 or so years is in your favor. Seize that personal responsibility with both hands, and best of luck to you and yours.
    All of that said, the speakers at the Values Summit include some truly horrible human beings, and IMO it’s inappropriate for the POTUS to legitimize that soiree with his presence.
    Unfortunately for him, that’s his base. So I guess he had to take the gig.
    I suspect he was fine with it.

  342. No one wants someone elses life to turn to shit.
    Actually, not a few folks are totally fine with it. Happy about it, even. I know this because they say so.
    We would like for state and local government and “you” the individual persons to take responsibility for your community and yourself.
    As you wish. Best of luck.
    The fundamental disconnect in this discussion year after year is that Democrats/liberals expect all problems to be solved by the federal government
    Speaking for myself, I like the feds to be involved in issues of national scope.
    IMO that covers pretty much all of the issues raised in this thread.
    YMMV
    I get the personal responsibility thing. I’m actually kind of big on personal responsibility, myself.
    When somebody’s insistence on Personal Responsibility, complete with capital letters to indicate that it’s some kind of unquestionable imperative, means that somebody else gets to die because they were stupid and didn’t buy health insurance, I’m less of a fan.
    Moderation in all things. Common sense goes a long way.
    I’m happy to own the fact that I am a product of the environment I was raised in. NY and New England. Places with strong traditions of common action and purpose. Including via public means.
    I have no problem with people doing good and useful things through the instrument of government. That way everybody gets to have it, not just people who have “earned” it.
    Schools, roads, libraries, public transportation, basic public infrastructure and services. Not to exclude access to health care, not to exclude access to higher education.
    I’m happy when that stuff is available to everyone, and I’m happy to pay for it.
    And I understand that not everyone sees it that way, I’m just sick of the nation being freaking wedged over stuff that every other country in the damned world sorted out decades ago.
    Because we’re saddled with the mythology of the Strong Independent Rugged Individual, who Takes Responsibility For Him Or Herself.
    Or, you’re saddled with it. I have zero investment in it.
    So, screw it. You can lead a horse to water. If it’s so important to you to make a point about not being dependent on “Uncle Sugar” that you’re happy to freaking die rather than let the feds help out, far be it from me to gainsay it.
    The thing is, folks always seem to see things differently when it actually is their behind on the line.
    The folks who suddenly think gay marriage is OK when their kid comes out.
    The folks who suddenly think the ACA is OK when it pays for their medical care, or their spouse’s, or their kids.
    The folks who want those illegals deported, except for their next door neighbor. He’s one of the good ones, why does he have to go?
    And so on and so on.
    Whatever. The trend over the last 35 or so years is in your favor. Seize that personal responsibility with both hands, and best of luck to you and yours.
    All of that said, the speakers at the Values Summit include some truly horrible human beings, and IMO it’s inappropriate for the POTUS to legitimize that soiree with his presence.
    Unfortunately for him, that’s his base. So I guess he had to take the gig.
    I suspect he was fine with it.

  343. The first half of this is just nonsense, thwarting the tyranny of the majority was specifically the reason for electoral college
    You’re having a laugh. As conceived, the idea of the Electoral College was that “the immediate election should be made by men most capable of analyzing the qualities adapted to the station, and acting under circumstances favorable to deliberation, and to a judicious combination of all the reasons and inducements which were proper to govern their choice.”
    Nothing like that happens, the meeting of the Electoral College is a formality.
    Hamilton went on to write:
    “The process of election affords a moral certainty, that the office of President will never fall to the lot of any man who is not in an eminent degree endowed with the requisite qualifications. Talents for low intrigue, and the little arts of popularity, may alone suffice to elevate a man to the first honors in a single State; but it will require other talents, and a different kind of merit, to establish him in the esteem and confidence of the whole Union, or of so considerable a portion of it as would be necessary to make him a successful candidate for the distinguished office of President of the United States. It will not be too strong to say, that there will be a constant probability of seeing the station filled by characters pre-eminent for ability and virtue. And this will be thought no inconsiderable recommendation of the Constitution, by those who are able to estimate the share which the executive in every government must necessarily have in its good or ill administration.”
    Do you claim that the Electoral College is acting as Hamilton envisaged? Is Trump not exactly the sort of candidate Hamilton intended the Electoral College to exclude?
    The way the system operates now, it replaces tyranny of the majority with tyranny of the minority.

  344. The first half of this is just nonsense, thwarting the tyranny of the majority was specifically the reason for electoral college
    You’re having a laugh. As conceived, the idea of the Electoral College was that “the immediate election should be made by men most capable of analyzing the qualities adapted to the station, and acting under circumstances favorable to deliberation, and to a judicious combination of all the reasons and inducements which were proper to govern their choice.”
    Nothing like that happens, the meeting of the Electoral College is a formality.
    Hamilton went on to write:
    “The process of election affords a moral certainty, that the office of President will never fall to the lot of any man who is not in an eminent degree endowed with the requisite qualifications. Talents for low intrigue, and the little arts of popularity, may alone suffice to elevate a man to the first honors in a single State; but it will require other talents, and a different kind of merit, to establish him in the esteem and confidence of the whole Union, or of so considerable a portion of it as would be necessary to make him a successful candidate for the distinguished office of President of the United States. It will not be too strong to say, that there will be a constant probability of seeing the station filled by characters pre-eminent for ability and virtue. And this will be thought no inconsiderable recommendation of the Constitution, by those who are able to estimate the share which the executive in every government must necessarily have in its good or ill administration.”
    Do you claim that the Electoral College is acting as Hamilton envisaged? Is Trump not exactly the sort of candidate Hamilton intended the Electoral College to exclude?
    The way the system operates now, it replaces tyranny of the majority with tyranny of the minority.

  345. The republican state of Florida has the largest per capita population of citizens over the age of 65.
    Get out before all of that Fed money puts the state underwater.

  346. The republican state of Florida has the largest per capita population of citizens over the age of 65.
    Get out before all of that Fed money puts the state underwater.

  347. And, HSH, there are 35 states in this country run by Republicans to varying extents, pointing out one that has mixed results is not helpful.
    Yes, “just one example” – words I borrowed from you, that you used to make your very helpful point about how mean we liberal Democrats are to you poor, downtrodden conservative Republicans, whose party runs 35 states and controls congress and the White House.
    “Mixed results” – you’re a hoot!
    In fact I would say that most state failures are based on an over dependence on FED money.
    And I would say over-dependence on Fed money is based on preventing state failures. WTF do you think would happen to the vast majority of the reddest of the red states in this country without Fed money, be it in the form of public assistance, grants to the states, or jobs with federal agencies (or jobs supported by people with jobs with federal agencies who spend their salaries)? You gotta be kidding me.

  348. And, HSH, there are 35 states in this country run by Republicans to varying extents, pointing out one that has mixed results is not helpful.
    Yes, “just one example” – words I borrowed from you, that you used to make your very helpful point about how mean we liberal Democrats are to you poor, downtrodden conservative Republicans, whose party runs 35 states and controls congress and the White House.
    “Mixed results” – you’re a hoot!
    In fact I would say that most state failures are based on an over dependence on FED money.
    And I would say over-dependence on Fed money is based on preventing state failures. WTF do you think would happen to the vast majority of the reddest of the red states in this country without Fed money, be it in the form of public assistance, grants to the states, or jobs with federal agencies (or jobs supported by people with jobs with federal agencies who spend their salaries)? You gotta be kidding me.

  349. WRS @ 10.39.
    I think I’ve mentioned before that whenever I’ve met people who identify as Republican or rightwing, the main identifying difference that stands out dramatically between them and liberals, or in the US Democrats, is that they lack the imagination to understand the desirability for some publically-provided right, until they or their family need it themselves. (Obviously, this does not apply to only-nominal Republicans like wj.)
    Similarly, I have often thought that in order to understand the concept of White Male Privilege, people like McKinney or Marty would have to do something like John Howard Griffin did when he wrote Black Like Me. Wikipedia:

    Black Like Me, first published in 1961, is a nonfiction book by white journalist John Howard Griffin recounting his journey in the Deep South of the United States, at a time when African-Americans lived under Racial Segregation. Griffin was a native of Dallas, Texas, who had his skin temporarily darkened to pass as a black man. He traveled for six weeks throughout the racially segregated states of Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Arkansas, and Georgia to explore life from the other side of the color line. Sepia Magazine financed the project in exchange for the right to print the account first as a series of articles.
    Griffin kept a journal of his experiences; the 188-page diary was the genesis of the book. When he started his project in 1959, race relations in America were particularly strained. The title of the book is taken from the last line of the Langston Hughes poem “Dream Variations”.

  350. WRS @ 10.39.
    I think I’ve mentioned before that whenever I’ve met people who identify as Republican or rightwing, the main identifying difference that stands out dramatically between them and liberals, or in the US Democrats, is that they lack the imagination to understand the desirability for some publically-provided right, until they or their family need it themselves. (Obviously, this does not apply to only-nominal Republicans like wj.)
    Similarly, I have often thought that in order to understand the concept of White Male Privilege, people like McKinney or Marty would have to do something like John Howard Griffin did when he wrote Black Like Me. Wikipedia:

    Black Like Me, first published in 1961, is a nonfiction book by white journalist John Howard Griffin recounting his journey in the Deep South of the United States, at a time when African-Americans lived under Racial Segregation. Griffin was a native of Dallas, Texas, who had his skin temporarily darkened to pass as a black man. He traveled for six weeks throughout the racially segregated states of Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Arkansas, and Georgia to explore life from the other side of the color line. Sepia Magazine financed the project in exchange for the right to print the account first as a series of articles.
    Griffin kept a journal of his experiences; the 188-page diary was the genesis of the book. When he started his project in 1959, race relations in America were particularly strained. The title of the book is taken from the last line of the Langston Hughes poem “Dream Variations”.

  353. There always comes a moment in these threads for me in which I have to remind myself, that on a range of issues Marty and McKT are not the individuals I should be arguing with, except that they are the only ones who show up here as volunteers for my abuse.
    I exclude charleswt from this because if I called him a republican or even a conservative he would be suitably insulted.
    Neither of them are self-professed republicans of the variety I hate with every fiber of my morning fiber intake and I hope they know that.
    That the two of them think there is a “we” out there among this exclusionary monstrosity called the republican party they can their own is an illusion.
    Just one of each of their moderate views, perhaps McTX’s support of gay marriage or Marty’s moderate views on gun control, and when he’s not talking Obamacare but rather that he thinks healthcare insurance should be available to more citizens one way or another, places them in a wilderness where there is no “we” in the radical conservative movement that runs the show now who wouldn’t primary the two in a jiff and question their manhoods, the provenance of their mothers, and their patriotism if they were elected officials.
    But if the two of them run into those other ones, please tell them to go fuck themselves for me.

  354. There always comes a moment in these threads for me in which I have to remind myself, that on a range of issues Marty and McKT are not the individuals I should be arguing with, except that they are the only ones who show up here as volunteers for my abuse.
    I exclude charleswt from this because if I called him a republican or even a conservative he would be suitably insulted.
    Neither of them are self-professed republicans of the variety I hate with every fiber of my morning fiber intake and I hope they know that.
    That the two of them think there is a “we” out there among this exclusionary monstrosity called the republican party they can their own is an illusion.
    Just one of each of their moderate views, perhaps McTX’s support of gay marriage or Marty’s moderate views on gun control, and when he’s not talking Obamacare but rather that he thinks healthcare insurance should be available to more citizens one way or another, places them in a wilderness where there is no “we” in the radical conservative movement that runs the show now who wouldn’t primary the two in a jiff and question their manhoods, the provenance of their mothers, and their patriotism if they were elected officials.
    But if the two of them run into those other ones, please tell them to go fuck themselves for me.

  355. Rest at pale evening
    a tall slim tree
    Night coming tenderly
    black like me
    (From memory. That book was a huge shaping force in my adolescence. Thanks, GftNC, for reminding me.)

  356. Rest at pale evening
    a tall slim tree
    Night coming tenderly
    black like me
    (From memory. That book was a huge shaping force in my adolescence. Thanks, GftNC, for reminding me.)

  359. Longer, via New York Times:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/17/magazine/rex-tillerson-and-the-unraveling-of-the-state-department.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur
    Even longer:
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/10/16/rex-tillerson-at-the-breaking-point
    Shortcut to same:
    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/the-wrecking-of-the-state-department-hasnt-stopped/
    If Tillerson is the only autocrat standing in the way of rump’s preferred nuclear holocaust, then fuck us.

  360. Longer, via New York Times:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/17/magazine/rex-tillerson-and-the-unraveling-of-the-state-department.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur
    Even longer:
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/10/16/rex-tillerson-at-the-breaking-point
    Shortcut to same:
    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/the-wrecking-of-the-state-department-hasnt-stopped/
    If Tillerson is the only autocrat standing in the way of rump’s preferred nuclear holocaust, then fuck us.

  361. Texans with AK-47s doing Russia’s will in Texas. Infiltration, I think, is what right wing Texans called it in the days leading up to JFK’s assassination and ever since:
    http://juanitajean.com/commies-stop-islamization-of-texas/
    And rump’s will:
    https://www.balloon-juice.com/2017/10/17/calling-bullshit-on-the-bs-artist/
    These same pigs, all republicans, will show up with AK-47s during any attempt by any future Democratic Governor of Texas to craft a state-level universal health insurance operation.
    After killing John Kasich for proposing the increased taxes required to do the same in Ohio.

  362. Texans with AK-47s doing Russia’s will in Texas. Infiltration, I think, is what right wing Texans called it in the days leading up to JFK’s assassination and ever since:
    http://juanitajean.com/commies-stop-islamization-of-texas/
    And rump’s will:
    https://www.balloon-juice.com/2017/10/17/calling-bullshit-on-the-bs-artist/
    These same pigs, all republicans, will show up with AK-47s during any attempt by any future Democratic Governor of Texas to craft a state-level universal health insurance operation.
    After killing John Kasich for proposing the increased taxes required to do the same in Ohio.

  363. Just one of each of their moderate views … places them in a wilderness where there is no “we” in the radical conservative movement that runs the show now
    This.
    This is basically what I was trying to get at when I was talking upthread about the middle ground disappearing.
    Gentlemen, I respectfully ask you to take your party back. It would help a lot.

  364. Just one of each of their moderate views … places them in a wilderness where there is no “we” in the radical conservative movement that runs the show now
    This.
    This is basically what I was trying to get at when I was talking upthread about the middle ground disappearing.
    Gentlemen, I respectfully ask you to take your party back. It would help a lot.

  365. Count: Getting rid of rump is like overthrowing Saddam Hussein.
    Beware of the intended consequences.
    I have yet to encounter anyone (admittedly I don’t personally interact much with the far right) who doesn’t see the downside of a President Pence. Pretty clearly he would be more successful in getting bad policies enacted and implemented.
    But it’s a matter of feeling that the existing alternative is worse. In particular, at least in my case, feeling like Trump could well get us into a war as a result of injured ego and personal pique. Which Pence, for all his shortcomings, seems far less likely to.

  366. Count: Getting rid of rump is like overthrowing Saddam Hussein.
    Beware of the intended consequences.
    I have yet to encounter anyone (admittedly I don’t personally interact much with the far right) who doesn’t see the downside of a President Pence. Pretty clearly he would be more successful in getting bad policies enacted and implemented.
    But it’s a matter of feeling that the existing alternative is worse. In particular, at least in my case, feeling like Trump could well get us into a war as a result of injured ego and personal pique. Which Pence, for all his shortcomings, seems far less likely to.

  377. Remember when Marty McFly told the 1955 Doc Brown that Ronald Reagan was president in 1985?

    Doc: Tell me, Future Boy, who’s President of the United States in 1985?
    Marty: Ronald Reagan.
    Doc: Ronald Reagan? The actor? [rolls his eyes] Ha! Then who’s vice-president, Jerry Lewis? I suppose Jane Wyman is the First Lady?
    Marty: Whoa, wait. Doc!
    Doc: And Jack Benny is Secretary of the Treasury!

    It’s like that, only worse.

  378. Remember when Marty McFly told the 1955 Doc Brown that Ronald Reagan was president in 1985?

    Doc: Tell me, Future Boy, who’s President of the United States in 1985?
    Marty: Ronald Reagan.
    Doc: Ronald Reagan? The actor? [rolls his eyes] Ha! Then who’s vice-president, Jerry Lewis? I suppose Jane Wyman is the First Lady?
    Marty: Whoa, wait. Doc!
    Doc: And Jack Benny is Secretary of the Treasury!

    It’s like that, only worse.

  379. Much, much worse. So bad, that it wouldn’t even have made a vaguely credible dystopian novel….

  380. Much, much worse. So bad, that it wouldn’t even have made a vaguely credible dystopian novel….

  383. In fact I would say that most state failures are based on an over dependence on FED money.
    Yep. All that sweet, sweet agriculture subsidy funding flowing into Kansas has really fucked them over I guess.
    And not once have I ever heard Chucky Grassley berate Iowa farmers to stop sucking off the federal teat and “stand up on your own two feet.”
    Now why is that?

  384. In fact I would say that most state failures are based on an over dependence on FED money.
    Yep. All that sweet, sweet agriculture subsidy funding flowing into Kansas has really fucked them over I guess.
    And not once have I ever heard Chucky Grassley berate Iowa farmers to stop sucking off the federal teat and “stand up on your own two feet.”
    Now why is that?

  385. In fact I would say that most state failures are based on an over dependence on FED money.
    they could, if they weren’t igneously stupid, generate sufficient tax revenue to pay their own bills.

  386. In fact I would say that most state failures are based on an over dependence on FED money.
    they could, if they weren’t igneously stupid, generate sufficient tax revenue to pay their own bills.

  387. they could, if they weren’t igneously stupid
    No, no, no….stupid applies only to those of dusky hue confined to inner cities and lacking wealth and concomitant opportunity…because they lack “initiative”.
    Nay, our Midwestern stalwarts are the sons and daughters of right colored folks who stole the land and slaughtered its inhabitants (other dusky hues), resolutely kept those of the incorrect hue from their neighborhoods, and were subsidized to do so (Homestead Act, etc.).
    Now, there’s initiative!

  388. they could, if they weren’t igneously stupid
    No, no, no….stupid applies only to those of dusky hue confined to inner cities and lacking wealth and concomitant opportunity…because they lack “initiative”.
    Nay, our Midwestern stalwarts are the sons and daughters of right colored folks who stole the land and slaughtered its inhabitants (other dusky hues), resolutely kept those of the incorrect hue from their neighborhoods, and were subsidized to do so (Homestead Act, etc.).
    Now, there’s initiative!

  389. Why, if I didn’t know any better….reading (wingnut) musings would lead me to believe that one could repeatedly rape their wives, beat their kids, and kick their dogs, but if, by some miracle, one fine day you stopped doing these horrible things, you could turn to them and sweetly say, “Well, I’ve stopped doing that terrible stuff. Everything is OK now, right?”
    And (wingnuts) would agree.

  390. Why, if I didn’t know any better….reading (wingnut) musings would lead me to believe that one could repeatedly rape their wives, beat their kids, and kick their dogs, but if, by some miracle, one fine day you stopped doing these horrible things, you could turn to them and sweetly say, “Well, I’ve stopped doing that terrible stuff. Everything is OK now, right?”
    And (wingnuts) would agree.

  391. “they could, if they weren’t igneously stupid”
    I’m not sure that is true, but I completely understand your sediment.

  392. “they could, if they weren’t igneously stupid”
    I’m not sure that is true, but I completely understand your sediment.

  393. from Donald’s link
    I was just talking to Ai Wei Wei here, and he was saying that to him Donald Trump is, is only more of a kind of extroverted version of what we’ve seen from the United States presidency in general.
    ouch…

  394. from Donald’s link
    I was just talking to Ai Wei Wei here, and he was saying that to him Donald Trump is, is only more of a kind of extroverted version of what we’ve seen from the United States presidency in general.
    ouch…

  397. from Donald’s link
    Of course Donald would post a “both sides do it but neoliberal Democrats are worse” link. Barf.

  398. from Donald’s link
    Of course Donald would post a “both sides do it but neoliberal Democrats are worse” link. Barf.

  401. Not that one shouldn’t read the LGM commentary at my link. Especially someone quoting John Cole regarding the republicans:
    ‘John Cole’s famous postulate about how you can’t even negotiate what to have for dinner when the other party’s response to the question is “anthrax and tire rims” is as true today as it was then.’

  402. Not that one shouldn’t read the LGM commentary at my link. Especially someone quoting John Cole regarding the republicans:
    ‘John Cole’s famous postulate about how you can’t even negotiate what to have for dinner when the other party’s response to the question is “anthrax and tire rims” is as true today as it was then.’

  409. Donald’s a wonderful saint, we all know, to post links to Intercept both sides do it and Democrats are worse articles.
    I’m sure whatever hearsay somebody overheard about Ai Wei Wei and his expert views on US politics, and how we got to Donald Trump from Barack Obama, is extremely valuable.

  410. Donald’s a wonderful saint, we all know, to post links to Intercept both sides do it and Democrats are worse articles.
    I’m sure whatever hearsay somebody overheard about Ai Wei Wei and his expert views on US politics, and how we got to Donald Trump from Barack Obama, is extremely valuable.

  413. Sapient, the article is an interview with Te-Nehisi Coates, and the anecdote about Ai Wei Wei is contextualized in the interview. You disagree, that’s fine, but I’m asking you to either chill or step back. Thanks.

  414. Sapient, the article is an interview with Te-Nehisi Coates, and the anecdote about Ai Wei Wei is contextualized in the interview. You disagree, that’s fine, but I’m asking you to either chill or step back. Thanks.

  419. The article didn’t say that, sapient. Not even close, afaik. I qualified that because the Wei Wei reference went over my head. I have been meaning to look up who Wei Wei is because I have seen the name a few times and am utterly clueless up to this moment.
    As for saintliness, I have been under something of a partial self ban for awhile as I need to think about how to interact online on topics where I get as angry as you do. My solution, the one that works best, is to mostly just lurk.

  420. The article didn’t say that, sapient. Not even close, afaik. I qualified that because the Wei Wei reference went over my head. I have been meaning to look up who Wei Wei is because I have seen the name a few times and am utterly clueless up to this moment.
    As for saintliness, I have been under something of a partial self ban for awhile as I need to think about how to interact online on topics where I get as angry as you do. My solution, the one that works best, is to mostly just lurk.

  421. Ai Wei Wei is a very considerable artist, and a brave man who has been persecuted and almost killed by the totalitarian regime in China, as his father was persecuted before him. Whether one agrees with him or not, he deserves a respectful hearing when he talks about politics, he has suffered a great deal to be able to do so.

  422. Ai Wei Wei is a very considerable artist, and a brave man who has been persecuted and almost killed by the totalitarian regime in China, as his father was persecuted before him. Whether one agrees with him or not, he deserves a respectful hearing when he talks about politics, he has suffered a great deal to be able to do so.

  423. Donald whatever. I commented on that earlier article that you linked to, because it was historically inaccurate, and kind of dumb. I’m a big fan of Ta-Nehisi Coates for his many articles on the Civil War, and on race, but he and I got into a bit of a tiff on an artilce he wrote regarding Obama’s foreign policy.
    As far as Ai Wei Wei is concerned, I’ve been following new articles about him since he was incarcerated in China. A close relative of mine lives in China, so I’m interested (concerned, aware, learning … etc.). You know what? Most Chinese people have nada insight on US politics, which I was responding to about lj’s comment. As for your choice of places to find news? Okay, “both sides do it, but neoliberal Clinton etc. are worse. ”
    You know what? I’ve actually been doing some granular work with people who’ve been affected by Trump’s cruelty. You’re so freaking wrong, and I really can’t hold back on how much damage your failure to support Democrats (versus fascists) has cost lives. Maybe you’re just dumb or something (although you don’t seem intellectually impaired). But you’re wrong, whatever your problem is.
    I’ve been warned. I’m not supposed to argue with you. So just go do whatever it is that makes you feel affirmed. Bye.

  424. Donald whatever. I commented on that earlier article that you linked to, because it was historically inaccurate, and kind of dumb. I’m a big fan of Ta-Nehisi Coates for his many articles on the Civil War, and on race, but he and I got into a bit of a tiff on an artilce he wrote regarding Obama’s foreign policy.
    As far as Ai Wei Wei is concerned, I’ve been following new articles about him since he was incarcerated in China. A close relative of mine lives in China, so I’m interested (concerned, aware, learning … etc.). You know what? Most Chinese people have nada insight on US politics, which I was responding to about lj’s comment. As for your choice of places to find news? Okay, “both sides do it, but neoliberal Clinton etc. are worse. ”
    You know what? I’ve actually been doing some granular work with people who’ve been affected by Trump’s cruelty. You’re so freaking wrong, and I really can’t hold back on how much damage your failure to support Democrats (versus fascists) has cost lives. Maybe you’re just dumb or something (although you don’t seem intellectually impaired). But you’re wrong, whatever your problem is.
    I’ve been warned. I’m not supposed to argue with you. So just go do whatever it is that makes you feel affirmed. Bye.

  425. Whether one agrees with him or not, he deserves a respectful hearing when he talks about politics, he has suffered a great deal to be able to do so.
    It’s not disrespecting someone to note that they have little knowledge of US politics. Almost nobody in china does. Just saying. Pretending that Chinese people have an objective view of the US is just not correct.

  426. Whether one agrees with him or not, he deserves a respectful hearing when he talks about politics, he has suffered a great deal to be able to do so.
    It’s not disrespecting someone to note that they have little knowledge of US politics. Almost nobody in china does. Just saying. Pretending that Chinese people have an objective view of the US is just not correct.

  427. Sapient, he lived in the States for approximately thirteen years, and went to U. Penn and Berkley.

  428. Sapient, he lived in the States for approximately thirteen years, and went to U. Penn and Berkley.

  429. Sapient, he lived in the States for approximately thirteen years, and went to U. Penn and Berkley.
    In the late eighties/ early nineties. So he had an objective view of the Obama administration? After having been jailed by Chinese authorities in 2011? I’m sure the Chinese government gave him an unhindered view of life in the US during that time! All good gftnc – leaning in to the Chinese regime’s post 2011 view of Obama! You’re so wise!

  430. Sapient, he lived in the States for approximately thirteen years, and went to U. Penn and Berkley.
    In the late eighties/ early nineties. So he had an objective view of the Obama administration? After having been jailed by Chinese authorities in 2011? I’m sure the Chinese government gave him an unhindered view of life in the US during that time! All good gftnc – leaning in to the Chinese regime’s post 2011 view of Obama! You’re so wise!

  431. Also, not to be unkind to artists, but they don’t always have the most accurate view of political life. Ezra Pound, anyone?

  432. Also, not to be unkind to artists, but they don’t always have the most accurate view of political life. Ezra Pound, anyone?

  433. Also, not to be unkind to artists, but they don’t always have the most accurate view of political life.
    People who are obsessed with political life don’t always have the most accurate idea of it either.

  434. Also, not to be unkind to artists, but they don’t always have the most accurate view of political life.
    People who are obsessed with political life don’t always have the most accurate idea of it either.

  435. People who are obsessed with political life don’t always have the most accurate idea of it either.
    Maybe. But as opposed to incarcerated Chinese people, who don’t have internet access except for VPNs that are banned, well,
    maybe there’s a difference in their primary sources.

  436. People who are obsessed with political life don’t always have the most accurate idea of it either.
    Maybe. But as opposed to incarcerated Chinese people, who don’t have internet access except for VPNs that are banned, well,
    maybe there’s a difference in their primary sources.

  439. sapient, you’re losing your grip again. When the red mist clears, if you look back on these comments, you’ll be embarrassed. I’m going to bed, if you’re wise you’ll have a drink, listen to some jazz, and then do likewise.

  440. sapient, you’re losing your grip again. When the red mist clears, if you look back on these comments, you’ll be embarrassed. I’m going to bed, if you’re wise you’ll have a drink, listen to some jazz, and then do likewise.

  441. When the red mist clears, if you look back on these comments, you’ll be embarrassed.
    Or maybe I believe what I say. It’s possible.

  442. When the red mist clears, if you look back on these comments, you’ll be embarrassed.
    Or maybe I believe what I say. It’s possible.

  443. sapient, you’re losing your grip again.
    I would love to have that psychoanalysis done. Isn’t calling someone crazy against the posting rules? Oh, only selectively.

  444. sapient, you’re losing your grip again.
    I would love to have that psychoanalysis done. Isn’t calling someone crazy against the posting rules? Oh, only selectively.

  445. Sapient, you are (I think) literally incapable of understanding people who disagree with you on politics, at least in some cases. I doubt it is just me, but when I am around it brings out the worst in you. I am mostly going to lurk, mainly because I keep rediscovering that arguing with people online doesn’t accomplish much of anything. I will post links from time to time.

  446. Sapient, you are (I think) literally incapable of understanding people who disagree with you on politics, at least in some cases. I doubt it is just me, but when I am around it brings out the worst in you. I am mostly going to lurk, mainly because I keep rediscovering that arguing with people online doesn’t accomplish much of anything. I will post links from time to time.

  447. I will post links from time to time.
    BS links, like the one trying to say that the 2nd amendment was very much about hating on government? Congrats on those fabulous finds.

  448. I will post links from time to time.
    BS links, like the one trying to say that the 2nd amendment was very much about hating on government? Congrats on those fabulous finds.

  449. You may believe what you say, but you are being led by anger into saying absurd things. For example, Ai Wei Wei has been out of jail since, I believe, 2011,and now lives in Germany. Do you suppose this highly political artist has not informed himself of world developments in this time? I do not say his views are or must be right, just that your contention that Chinese people know little about US politics, or after that that he would not know about recent politics because of his incarceration, are inapplicable and demonstrably wrong in this case. You disagree with him, fair enough. Why is it then necessary to start throwing sarcastic insults around and making clearly ridiculous arguments to justify them?

  450. You may believe what you say, but you are being led by anger into saying absurd things. For example, Ai Wei Wei has been out of jail since, I believe, 2011,and now lives in Germany. Do you suppose this highly political artist has not informed himself of world developments in this time? I do not say his views are or must be right, just that your contention that Chinese people know little about US politics, or after that that he would not know about recent politics because of his incarceration, are inapplicable and demonstrably wrong in this case. You disagree with him, fair enough. Why is it then necessary to start throwing sarcastic insults around and making clearly ridiculous arguments to justify them?

  453. I do not say his views are or must be right, just that your contention that Chinese people know little about US politics, or after that that he would not know about recent politics because of his incarceration, are inapplicable and demonstrably wrong in this case. You disagree with him, fair enough. Why is it then necessary to start throwing sarcastic insults around and making clearly ridiculous arguments to justify them?
    Have you experienced Chinese censorship? Probably not. Maybe when you’ve been there you’ve had a good VPN. I would suggest that a dissident probably hasn’t had a long and informed view of American politics. I would even say that my expat relative has to work on it a lot.
    Okay, you win! Both sides do it, and Democrats are worse!

  454. I do not say his views are or must be right, just that your contention that Chinese people know little about US politics, or after that that he would not know about recent politics because of his incarceration, are inapplicable and demonstrably wrong in this case. You disagree with him, fair enough. Why is it then necessary to start throwing sarcastic insults around and making clearly ridiculous arguments to justify them?
    Have you experienced Chinese censorship? Probably not. Maybe when you’ve been there you’ve had a good VPN. I would suggest that a dissident probably hasn’t had a long and informed view of American politics. I would even say that my expat relative has to work on it a lot.
    Okay, you win! Both sides do it, and Democrats are worse!

  455. OK, folks. Enough. So, just who were the worst? It’s time to settle this once and for all. My list is as follows (worst at the top):
    Ralph Nader
    JIll Stein
    Bernie Sanders
    Gene Debs
    Norman Thomas
    WJ Bryan
    Phillip II
    anybody named Koch
    Hitler
    Ghengis Khan
    Caligula
    Mao
    Leopold III
    Queen Victoria
    Columbus
    Churchill
    Franco
    Lenin
    Palmerstone
    Hillary Clinton
    Stalin
    Idi Amin
    Assads (various)
    George Bush
    Mobuto Sese Seko
    Barak Obama
    Saddam Hussein
    Lenin
    Herbert Hoover
    Yasser Arafat
    Jimmy Hoffa
    The top 5 are the worst because, duh! they made the perfect the enemy of the good…the worst crime a human being can commit, bar none!

  456. OK, folks. Enough. So, just who were the worst? It’s time to settle this once and for all. My list is as follows (worst at the top):
    Ralph Nader
    JIll Stein
    Bernie Sanders
    Gene Debs
    Norman Thomas
    WJ Bryan
    Phillip II
    anybody named Koch
    Hitler
    Ghengis Khan
    Caligula
    Mao
    Leopold III
    Queen Victoria
    Columbus
    Churchill
    Franco
    Lenin
    Palmerstone
    Hillary Clinton
    Stalin
    Idi Amin
    Assads (various)
    George Bush
    Mobuto Sese Seko
    Barak Obama
    Saddam Hussein
    Lenin
    Herbert Hoover
    Yasser Arafat
    Jimmy Hoffa
    The top 5 are the worst because, duh! they made the perfect the enemy of the good…the worst crime a human being can commit, bar none!

  463. C’mon, gftnc. And Donald too. Weigh in!
    No? Will take a few [minutes] [hours] [days] ?
    Yeah. Of course. JanieM? You’ve been to China, surely you have a view?
    Confession: Haven’t got a clue.

  464. C’mon, gftnc. And Donald too. Weigh in!
    No? Will take a few [minutes] [hours] [days] ?
    Yeah. Of course. JanieM? You’ve been to China, surely you have a view?
    Confession: Haven’t got a clue.

  467. Oh, also, Chinese Party Congress? Let’s discuss!
    This is limited to individuals. Group awards to follow. We note the 80th Congress should be there as well.

  468. Oh, also, Chinese Party Congress? Let’s discuss!
    This is limited to individuals. Group awards to follow. We note the 80th Congress should be there as well.

  471. sapient, lj asked you to chill or step back. Instead you chose to escalate, and now you’re making a fool of yourself. What do you suppose that accomplishes?

  472. sapient, lj asked you to chill or step back. Instead you chose to escalate, and now you’re making a fool of yourself. What do you suppose that accomplishes?

  477. I’ve learned 3 things:
    1. Donald Johnson is personally responsible for the election of Donald Trump.
    2. Chinese people are incapable of discussing American politics.
    3. JanieM is subject to sapeint’s demands.

  478. I’ve learned 3 things:
    1. Donald Johnson is personally responsible for the election of Donald Trump.
    2. Chinese people are incapable of discussing American politics.
    3. JanieM is subject to sapeint’s demands.

  481. I’ve learned 3 things:
    Donald Johnson is a saint, despite the fact that he posts links to bullshit.
    Chinese people can get a grip on things despite absolute state control, and criminal sanctions for accessing vpn’s.
    JanieM is so adorable, even though she confesses to not being very interested in anything but The Lord of the Rings.

  482. I’ve learned 3 things:
    Donald Johnson is a saint, despite the fact that he posts links to bullshit.
    Chinese people can get a grip on things despite absolute state control, and criminal sanctions for accessing vpn’s.
    JanieM is so adorable, even though she confesses to not being very interested in anything but The Lord of the Rings.

  485. Sapient, I thought that link had some interesting points, but on second thought was probably misleading about the history of the 2nd Amendment. I liked the idea that if it was meant to protect freedom we shouldn’t make a fetish of the material object but pay attention to the underlying motivation. So he compared it to people hypothetically thinking freedom of speech means we all get to own a printing press. I thought that was clever.
    Of course if the real motive for the 2nd Amendment was to suppress armed rebellions by farmers or slaves, then the whole thing seems a bit anachronistic and there isn’t much of an analogy with the First Amendment.

  486. Sapient, I thought that link had some interesting points, but on second thought was probably misleading about the history of the 2nd Amendment. I liked the idea that if it was meant to protect freedom we shouldn’t make a fetish of the material object but pay attention to the underlying motivation. So he compared it to people hypothetically thinking freedom of speech means we all get to own a printing press. I thought that was clever.
    Of course if the real motive for the 2nd Amendment was to suppress armed rebellions by farmers or slaves, then the whole thing seems a bit anachronistic and there isn’t much of an analogy with the First Amendment.

  487. And that was meant to illustrate how you could criticize the link without being really angry about it. I get how my presence is like fingernails on a chalkboard for you and given my own tendencies towards useless argumentation I am again going to greatly limit myself around here and other places. If you can’t handle even that much— well, whatever. There really won’t be too many links.

  488. And that was meant to illustrate how you could criticize the link without being really angry about it. I get how my presence is like fingernails on a chalkboard for you and given my own tendencies towards useless argumentation I am again going to greatly limit myself around here and other places. If you can’t handle even that much— well, whatever. There really won’t be too many links.

  489. My list is as follows (worst at the top)
    Bobby, while I don’t necessarily disagree with the Kochs’ position on the list, I’m having trouble understanding how the Mercers don’t appear. And probably (certainly) higher than the Kochs.

  490. My list is as follows (worst at the top)
    Bobby, while I don’t necessarily disagree with the Kochs’ position on the list, I’m having trouble understanding how the Mercers don’t appear. And probably (certainly) higher than the Kochs.

  491. seriously, WTF.
    props to Ai Wei Wei for his courage and his activism.
    But Donald J Trump is not “only a more extroverted version of what we’ve seen from the United States presidency in general”.
    Sorry, that’s horseshit. DJT is an ignorant corrupt belligerent thin-skinned stupid vain old horse’s ass, to a degree remarkable even for American plutocratic lucky sperm club members. He’s a fucking crook, a misogynist pig, and a famous shyster. I’d call him a liar, but that presupposes an understanding of what it means for a statement to actually be true.
    So I’ll just say he is habitually and reflexively full of shit. He is in fact an excellent bullshit artist, but unfortunately for all of us not an excellent anything else.
    He’s POTUS because the American people contain a remarkably large proportion of gullible dumb asses. His presidency is an embarrassment to the nation, and an insult to the rest of the world.
    He is, however, arguably extroverted.
    If you disagree, kindly show your work.
    I have no problem with Donald (ObWi Donald, not POTUS Donald). I have no problem with sapient. I have no problem with TNC. I have no problem with Ai Wei Wei.
    Sometimes we all say stupid shit. The quote referenced above is stupid shit, whatever the context.
    Thank you for this opportunity to reflect upon the person and character of the President of the United States. As with Dick Cheney’s celebrated frank exchange of views with Senator Patrick Leahy, I feel better for having said it.
    Good night all.

  492. seriously, WTF.
    props to Ai Wei Wei for his courage and his activism.
    But Donald J Trump is not “only a more extroverted version of what we’ve seen from the United States presidency in general”.
    Sorry, that’s horseshit. DJT is an ignorant corrupt belligerent thin-skinned stupid vain old horse’s ass, to a degree remarkable even for American plutocratic lucky sperm club members. He’s a fucking crook, a misogynist pig, and a famous shyster. I’d call him a liar, but that presupposes an understanding of what it means for a statement to actually be true.
    So I’ll just say he is habitually and reflexively full of shit. He is in fact an excellent bullshit artist, but unfortunately for all of us not an excellent anything else.
    He’s POTUS because the American people contain a remarkably large proportion of gullible dumb asses. His presidency is an embarrassment to the nation, and an insult to the rest of the world.
    He is, however, arguably extroverted.
    If you disagree, kindly show your work.
    I have no problem with Donald (ObWi Donald, not POTUS Donald). I have no problem with sapient. I have no problem with TNC. I have no problem with Ai Wei Wei.
    Sometimes we all say stupid shit. The quote referenced above is stupid shit, whatever the context.
    Thank you for this opportunity to reflect upon the person and character of the President of the United States. As with Dick Cheney’s celebrated frank exchange of views with Senator Patrick Leahy, I feel better for having said it.
    Good night all.

  493. I didn’t actually post the link because of the Wei Wei comment, who I knew almost nothing about until tonight. I posted it because of all the other things Scahill and Coates said, most of which I agreed with. Towards the end I agreed more with Coates than Scahill, the latter who seemed to think it might have been a good idea if Sanders had run a 3 rd party campaign given that Trump won anyway. I think Coates was right to dismiss that as a bad idea.
    Now for serious and much promised lurking to commence.

  494. I didn’t actually post the link because of the Wei Wei comment, who I knew almost nothing about until tonight. I posted it because of all the other things Scahill and Coates said, most of which I agreed with. Towards the end I agreed more with Coates than Scahill, the latter who seemed to think it might have been a good idea if Sanders had run a 3 rd party campaign given that Trump won anyway. I think Coates was right to dismiss that as a bad idea.
    Now for serious and much promised lurking to commence.

  495. Donald shouldn’t be blamed for the Wei Wei comment, I was the one who drew attention to it.
    I have to disagree with Russell here, I think we have to look at Trump as both a totally new entity and the sadly logical continuation of some trends in Western and US politics and society. It’s a comment that caught my eye because I know a bit about Wei Wei and when someone like that can be moved to observe that, well, ouch. Maybe he’s totally full of shit, but seeing how Republicans are having their own problems disavowing Trump, and the discussion about Obama Scahill and Coates have in the article (the quote is just to set up some observations by Coates) I’m not so sure.
    I’d welcome some chat about this, but if you think it has no merit, then I’m not sure there is anything to discuss about it.

  496. Donald shouldn’t be blamed for the Wei Wei comment, I was the one who drew attention to it.
    I have to disagree with Russell here, I think we have to look at Trump as both a totally new entity and the sadly logical continuation of some trends in Western and US politics and society. It’s a comment that caught my eye because I know a bit about Wei Wei and when someone like that can be moved to observe that, well, ouch. Maybe he’s totally full of shit, but seeing how Republicans are having their own problems disavowing Trump, and the discussion about Obama Scahill and Coates have in the article (the quote is just to set up some observations by Coates) I’m not so sure.
    I’d welcome some chat about this, but if you think it has no merit, then I’m not sure there is anything to discuss about it.

  501. I have to disagree with Russell here, I think we have to look at Trump as both a totally new entity and the sadly logical continuation of some trends in Western and US politics and society. It’s a comment that caught my eye because I know a bit about Wei Wei and when someone like that can be moved to observe that, well, ouch.
    I am, unsurprisingly, entirely with lj on this. The quote, which I believe was referenced by Coates’s interviewer, seemed to me to refer to the “American presidency”, as opposed to any particular president, let alone Obama, and for any reflexive Dem-defenders out there don’t forget that this would include Papa Bush, Baby Bush, Reagan etc as well as any Dems. With historical perspective (which I believe Ai can be assumed to have), and without naming presidents he might or might not have exempted if prompted to, this seems to me an interesting comment and a possible reflection of how nationals of other countries might regard, for example, America’s wars and interference in the internal political affairs of other nations. russell’s litany of ways in which Trump is exceptional can hardly be argued with, but I agree that when someone like Ai Wei Wei makes such a comment, it bears thinking about (although not necessarily agreement).

  502. I have to disagree with Russell here, I think we have to look at Trump as both a totally new entity and the sadly logical continuation of some trends in Western and US politics and society. It’s a comment that caught my eye because I know a bit about Wei Wei and when someone like that can be moved to observe that, well, ouch.
    I am, unsurprisingly, entirely with lj on this. The quote, which I believe was referenced by Coates’s interviewer, seemed to me to refer to the “American presidency”, as opposed to any particular president, let alone Obama, and for any reflexive Dem-defenders out there don’t forget that this would include Papa Bush, Baby Bush, Reagan etc as well as any Dems. With historical perspective (which I believe Ai can be assumed to have), and without naming presidents he might or might not have exempted if prompted to, this seems to me an interesting comment and a possible reflection of how nationals of other countries might regard, for example, America’s wars and interference in the internal political affairs of other nations. russell’s litany of ways in which Trump is exceptional can hardly be argued with, but I agree that when someone like Ai Wei Wei makes such a comment, it bears thinking about (although not necessarily agreement).

  503. I’m now leaving for London, sans car (which I discovered yesterday evening has been written off – very infuriating and upsetting because I get one quarter of the cost of a new one, and it only had 35,000 miles on the clock), so I am putting down the cudgels for the moment, in the devout hope that I won’t be drawn into taking them up again. I very much dislike engaging in personal argument here, particularly with sapient, and always hope it won’t be necessary, but sometimes needs must.

  504. I’m now leaving for London, sans car (which I discovered yesterday evening has been written off – very infuriating and upsetting because I get one quarter of the cost of a new one, and it only had 35,000 miles on the clock), so I am putting down the cudgels for the moment, in the devout hope that I won’t be drawn into taking them up again. I very much dislike engaging in personal argument here, particularly with sapient, and always hope it won’t be necessary, but sometimes needs must.

  505. I think we have to look at Trump as both a totally new entity and the sadly logical continuation of some trends in Western and US politics and society.
    well, about half the folks who showed up to vote, voted for him. so yes, a continuation of some trends in (maybe) western and (definitely) US politics and society.
    that said, as a POTUS, Trump is sui generis. thus far, anyway – maybe he is what presidenting will look like going forward. in which case, we’re circling the drain.
    bullying arrogance, proud ignorance, and the valorization of luridly vulgar wealth. definitely a part of the american fabric. not our best side, but a side.

  506. I think we have to look at Trump as both a totally new entity and the sadly logical continuation of some trends in Western and US politics and society.
    well, about half the folks who showed up to vote, voted for him. so yes, a continuation of some trends in (maybe) western and (definitely) US politics and society.
    that said, as a POTUS, Trump is sui generis. thus far, anyway – maybe he is what presidenting will look like going forward. in which case, we’re circling the drain.
    bullying arrogance, proud ignorance, and the valorization of luridly vulgar wealth. definitely a part of the american fabric. not our best side, but a side.

  507. It seems unnecessary to fight over a remark reported days later and out of context.
    Trump and GW Bush have a lot in common – privileged backgrounds, military hawks who avoided the Vietnam War (they’re the same age), intellectually uncurious, poor decision making, administrative incompetence.
    However, Trump is personally repugnant on top of all that – lying, boasting, bullying, exploiting and abusing. Whereas GWB seems to be personally a likeable guy.
    Trump is not just the worst president I’ve experienced, he’s the worst president I can imagine. His only redeeming feature is that his utter incompetence stands in the way of his malign intentions.

  508. It seems unnecessary to fight over a remark reported days later and out of context.
    Trump and GW Bush have a lot in common – privileged backgrounds, military hawks who avoided the Vietnam War (they’re the same age), intellectually uncurious, poor decision making, administrative incompetence.
    However, Trump is personally repugnant on top of all that – lying, boasting, bullying, exploiting and abusing. Whereas GWB seems to be personally a likeable guy.
    Trump is not just the worst president I’ve experienced, he’s the worst president I can imagine. His only redeeming feature is that his utter incompetence stands in the way of his malign intentions.

  509. Trump is the culmination of America, marking the transition from Republic to Imperial autocracy/oligarchy. He is our Nero, our Caligula as Bush and Obama were our Augustus and Tiberius (who was competent if decadent and disinterested)
    Empire is slowly contracting instead of expanding, there are no jobs or opportunities but bread and circuses; welfare/ACA and twitter/streaming services; competitive empires are wary but gingerly testing our boundaries; military is taking charge to avoid disaster; masses have become disinterested in politics except as sport, like Red and Blue Chariot teams. Etc Etc.
    It is actually a very boring time to be followed by boring competent benevolent tyrants. Obama was the last chance to avoid acedie and he didn’t even try.
    Lordon’s “Willing slaves of capital” or Wolin’s “inverted totalitarianism” are good descriptions, although Wolin was writing in 2004 or so, and imagined more war than will happen. Be just border patrol.

  510. Trump is the culmination of America, marking the transition from Republic to Imperial autocracy/oligarchy. He is our Nero, our Caligula as Bush and Obama were our Augustus and Tiberius (who was competent if decadent and disinterested)
    Empire is slowly contracting instead of expanding, there are no jobs or opportunities but bread and circuses; welfare/ACA and twitter/streaming services; competitive empires are wary but gingerly testing our boundaries; military is taking charge to avoid disaster; masses have become disinterested in politics except as sport, like Red and Blue Chariot teams. Etc Etc.
    It is actually a very boring time to be followed by boring competent benevolent tyrants. Obama was the last chance to avoid acedie and he didn’t even try.
    Lordon’s “Willing slaves of capital” or Wolin’s “inverted totalitarianism” are good descriptions, although Wolin was writing in 2004 or so, and imagined more war than will happen. Be just border patrol.

  513. on the lighter side, I thought this was pretty funny. probably because I’m a snarky smart-ass.
    when jokes are all you got left, you might as well have a laugh.
    FWIW, I find mcmanus’ 9:51 persuasive. I think he mistakes Obama’s personal style for acedie as a character trait, but I have no real quibble with the gist of it.

  514. on the lighter side, I thought this was pretty funny. probably because I’m a snarky smart-ass.
    when jokes are all you got left, you might as well have a laugh.
    FWIW, I find mcmanus’ 9:51 persuasive. I think he mistakes Obama’s personal style for acedie as a character trait, but I have no real quibble with the gist of it.

  515. I think I understand the pro second amendment argument about good guys having the right to defend themselves against bad guys, albeit in seems in practice to end up with a lot of people getting shot.
    But the argument about resisting government tyranny escapes me altogether. How is it different from saying I want the right to choose which laws I obey, and to shoot any policemen trying to enforce the laws I’ve opted out of?

  516. I think I understand the pro second amendment argument about good guys having the right to defend themselves against bad guys, albeit in seems in practice to end up with a lot of people getting shot.
    But the argument about resisting government tyranny escapes me altogether. How is it different from saying I want the right to choose which laws I obey, and to shoot any policemen trying to enforce the laws I’ve opted out of?

  517. http://juanitajean.com/whoa-facebook/
    A little back-of-the-pushed-envelope math noodling:
    Thirty thousand guillotines. Sixty-five million, give or take, rumpateers. We’ll start at the top … well …. just below the chin.
    2167 heads per guillotine. Even more efficient than swimming pools.
    We’ll need plenty of baskets.
    The job could be done in 24 hours.
    I don’t know how many boxcars FEMA would need ferrying the heads one way and the bodies the other.
    I guess we’ll have to wait for rump’s Eastern European fake news fascists, whose ancestors had so much practice running the trains on time, to provide guidance.

  518. http://juanitajean.com/whoa-facebook/
    A little back-of-the-pushed-envelope math noodling:
    Thirty thousand guillotines. Sixty-five million, give or take, rumpateers. We’ll start at the top … well …. just below the chin.
    2167 heads per guillotine. Even more efficient than swimming pools.
    We’ll need plenty of baskets.
    The job could be done in 24 hours.
    I don’t know how many boxcars FEMA would need ferrying the heads one way and the bodies the other.
    I guess we’ll have to wait for rump’s Eastern European fake news fascists, whose ancestors had so much practice running the trains on time, to provide guidance.

  521. I always thought that acedie was a personal failing. but bob mcmanus seems to expand it to a societal one, which is new for me. Not saying it is wrong, but it seems to me that personification of society and societal trends is something that has caused at least to some extent the mess we are in.
    Thinking about that, the line from Yeats about Slouching towards Bethlehem (actually Joan Didion changed the slouches to slouching) had me look up the poem here
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Second_Coming_(poem)
    and it had this
    A 2016 analysis by Factiva showed that lines from the poem were quoted more often in the first seven months of 2016 than in any of the preceding 30 years
    So maybe there is a societal acedie here.

  522. I always thought that acedie was a personal failing. but bob mcmanus seems to expand it to a societal one, which is new for me. Not saying it is wrong, but it seems to me that personification of society and societal trends is something that has caused at least to some extent the mess we are in.
    Thinking about that, the line from Yeats about Slouching towards Bethlehem (actually Joan Didion changed the slouches to slouching) had me look up the poem here
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Second_Coming_(poem)
    and it had this
    A 2016 analysis by Factiva showed that lines from the poem were quoted more often in the first seven months of 2016 than in any of the preceding 30 years
    So maybe there is a societal acedie here.

  525. How is it different from saying I want the right to choose which laws I obey, and to shoot any policemen trying to enforce the laws I’ve opted out of?
    you’re missing the part where objective observers* will declare without qualification that the government has become tyrannical. once that has been determined, overthrowing it is no more unlawful than killing a scary looking black kid who’s brandishing a bag of Skittles at you.
    * – aka Good Conservative Patriots (and only Good Conservative Patriots)

  526. How is it different from saying I want the right to choose which laws I obey, and to shoot any policemen trying to enforce the laws I’ve opted out of?
    you’re missing the part where objective observers* will declare without qualification that the government has become tyrannical. once that has been determined, overthrowing it is no more unlawful than killing a scary looking black kid who’s brandishing a bag of Skittles at you.
    * – aka Good Conservative Patriots (and only Good Conservative Patriots)

  527. “Thirty thousand guillotines. Sixty-five million, give or take, rumpateers. We’ll start at the top … well …. just below the chin.”
    Guillotines, while considered to be a newfangled innovation back in the 18th Century, are terribly inefficient in these modern times.
    Today, we use WOOD CHIPPERS, readily available at your local hardware and garden store at very reasonable prices.
    GOP traitors we feed in ‘feet first’, to give them an opportunity to rat out their co-conspirators. Be ready to get the russian translated, though.

  528. “Thirty thousand guillotines. Sixty-five million, give or take, rumpateers. We’ll start at the top … well …. just below the chin.”
    Guillotines, while considered to be a newfangled innovation back in the 18th Century, are terribly inefficient in these modern times.
    Today, we use WOOD CHIPPERS, readily available at your local hardware and garden store at very reasonable prices.
    GOP traitors we feed in ‘feet first’, to give them an opportunity to rat out their co-conspirators. Be ready to get the russian translated, though.

  529. Small print for small babies:
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/dear-baby-connor-your-coverage-is-denied?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning
    Lucky for the insurance companies, the kid, who wishes he could go back 10 months and be preborn again so he could secure his rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of American horseshit, didn’t join the NRA as a fetus.
    Hey, the kid knew what he was signing up for.*
    *I’m starting a new series of best American Presidential quotes. The most recent ones, because they are so much more accurate and eloquent than “the worst sharron angles of our better natures” or “ask not what, but ask how high is your marginal tax rate” or “fear itself is what should scare the shit out of you”

  530. Small print for small babies:
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/dear-baby-connor-your-coverage-is-denied?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning
    Lucky for the insurance companies, the kid, who wishes he could go back 10 months and be preborn again so he could secure his rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of American horseshit, didn’t join the NRA as a fetus.
    Hey, the kid knew what he was signing up for.*
    *I’m starting a new series of best American Presidential quotes. The most recent ones, because they are so much more accurate and eloquent than “the worst sharron angles of our better natures” or “ask not what, but ask how high is your marginal tax rate” or “fear itself is what should scare the shit out of you”

  531. A 2016 analysis by Factiva showed that lines from the poem were quoted more often in the first seven months of 2016 than in any of the preceding 30 years
    Including many, many times by me, probably on this very site among other occasions. In addition, I’m guessing the first 7 months of 2017 outperformed 2016 very handsomely. Nobody can say we didn’t know what we (loosely speaking) were signed up for.

  532. A 2016 analysis by Factiva showed that lines from the poem were quoted more often in the first seven months of 2016 than in any of the preceding 30 years
    Including many, many times by me, probably on this very site among other occasions. In addition, I’m guessing the first 7 months of 2017 outperformed 2016 very handsomely. Nobody can say we didn’t know what we (loosely speaking) were signed up for.

  533. Pro bono: Trump and GW Bush have a lot in common – privileged backgrounds, military hawks who avoided the Vietnam War (they’re the same age), intellectually uncurious, poor decision making, administrative incompetence.
    However, Trump is personally repugnant on top of all that – lying, boasting, bullying, exploiting and abusing. Whereas GWB seems to be personally a likeable guy.
    I think, in fairness to Bush II, it should be noted that, while he was definitely intellectually lazy, that wasn’t the end of the story. He might have preferred not to read briefing books, etc. But, in office, he actually did spend the time to read, not just single page summaries with bullet points but actual briefing books.
    You can argue about whether he absorbed all that material as well as might have been desired. But there’s no question that the difference in the effort Bush II was willing and able to make vs Trump is like night and day. Trump glorified ignorance; Bush didn’t. (Which may have something to do with being married to a school teacher, rather than a model….)

  534. Pro bono: Trump and GW Bush have a lot in common – privileged backgrounds, military hawks who avoided the Vietnam War (they’re the same age), intellectually uncurious, poor decision making, administrative incompetence.
    However, Trump is personally repugnant on top of all that – lying, boasting, bullying, exploiting and abusing. Whereas GWB seems to be personally a likeable guy.
    I think, in fairness to Bush II, it should be noted that, while he was definitely intellectually lazy, that wasn’t the end of the story. He might have preferred not to read briefing books, etc. But, in office, he actually did spend the time to read, not just single page summaries with bullet points but actual briefing books.
    You can argue about whether he absorbed all that material as well as might have been desired. But there’s no question that the difference in the effort Bush II was willing and able to make vs Trump is like night and day. Trump glorified ignorance; Bush didn’t. (Which may have something to do with being married to a school teacher, rather than a model….)

  535. And I should, perhaps, note that I have never been a Bush II fan. Didn’t vote for him — not in the primaries, not in the general elections. But putting him in the same bucket with Trump is giving Trump far too much normality.

  536. And I should, perhaps, note that I have never been a Bush II fan. Didn’t vote for him — not in the primaries, not in the general elections. But putting him in the same bucket with Trump is giving Trump far too much normality.

  539. But there’s no question that the difference in the effort Bush II was willing and able to make vs Trump is like night and day.
    I wonder how much of the difference is age. Bush II and Trump are within about three weeks of being the same age. From what I can gather, Trump today is a quite different person in some ways compared to 16 years ago. Heck, I’m not as old as they are and my intellectual abilities were a lot sharper 16 years ago: I could read faster, retain more of it, and find the patterns across material better.

  540. But there’s no question that the difference in the effort Bush II was willing and able to make vs Trump is like night and day.
    I wonder how much of the difference is age. Bush II and Trump are within about three weeks of being the same age. From what I can gather, Trump today is a quite different person in some ways compared to 16 years ago. Heck, I’m not as old as they are and my intellectual abilities were a lot sharper 16 years ago: I could read faster, retain more of it, and find the patterns across material better.

  541. “That was some weird shit.”
    Have to say that was Lincolnesque of Bush II to point out after the rump Inaugural. There should be a statue erected near the reflecting pond of Bush tangled up in his rain mack with THAT as the engraved inscription.
    Among utterances by ex-Presidents, that was right up there with “A guy could catch his death in this weather” uttered by Martin Van Buren at William Henry Harrison’s Inaugural in 1841.
    I guess I view Bush II, and Rove, as gateway drugs, one of many slouches toward Bethlehem accomplished by the republican party since Eisenhower to its latest apotheosis of the rump hard stuff.
    They have rougher beasts in the wings.

  542. “That was some weird shit.”
    Have to say that was Lincolnesque of Bush II to point out after the rump Inaugural. There should be a statue erected near the reflecting pond of Bush tangled up in his rain mack with THAT as the engraved inscription.
    Among utterances by ex-Presidents, that was right up there with “A guy could catch his death in this weather” uttered by Martin Van Buren at William Henry Harrison’s Inaugural in 1841.
    I guess I view Bush II, and Rove, as gateway drugs, one of many slouches toward Bethlehem accomplished by the republican party since Eisenhower to its latest apotheosis of the rump hard stuff.
    They have rougher beasts in the wings.

  545. just in case you weren’t quite sure, Roy Moore is a dingbat.
    http://time.com/4987441/roy-moore-nfl-protests-law/

    Senate candidate Roy Moore believes that professional athletes who take a knee during the national anthem are breaking the law.
    In an interview with TIME magazine, the Alabama Republican argued that NFL players and others who have protested police violence are violating a section of the U.S. code which outlines how people should conduct themselves when the anthem is played. (The code merely outlines proper etiquette, and there are no legal penalties outlined in the law.)
    “It’s against the law, you know that?” he said. “It was a act of Congress that every man stand and put their hand over their heart. That’s the law.”

  546. just in case you weren’t quite sure, Roy Moore is a dingbat.
    http://time.com/4987441/roy-moore-nfl-protests-law/

    Senate candidate Roy Moore believes that professional athletes who take a knee during the national anthem are breaking the law.
    In an interview with TIME magazine, the Alabama Republican argued that NFL players and others who have protested police violence are violating a section of the U.S. code which outlines how people should conduct themselves when the anthem is played. (The code merely outlines proper etiquette, and there are no legal penalties outlined in the law.)
    “It’s against the law, you know that?” he said. “It was a act of Congress that every man stand and put their hand over their heart. That’s the law.”

  551. I might disagree with his next to last paragraph. But overall, as you say, Buchanan nails it — thus demonstrating that wonders do never cease.

  552. I might disagree with his next to last paragraph. But overall, as you say, Buchanan nails it — thus demonstrating that wonders do never cease.

  553. From the Count’s link: The people who are going to decide the future of the Middle East are the people who live there. And among these people, the future will be determined by those most willing to fight, bleed, and die for years and in considerable numbers to realize that future.
    This is a simple truth that our promoters of never ending war just never seem to understand. I am gobsmacked to be in a position of agreeing with anything spewing from PJB’s poison pen….because he is, in just about every respect, a total and complete racist asshole.
    Strange bedfellows indeed.
    But Donald Trump was not elected to do that. Or so some of us thought.
    WTF, Pat? Did you really believe a narcissistic asshole like Trump could resist the siren call of “easy” military victory? There is an easy rule of thumb here. If Obama was for it, Trump will be agin’ it….no matter what.

  554. From the Count’s link: The people who are going to decide the future of the Middle East are the people who live there. And among these people, the future will be determined by those most willing to fight, bleed, and die for years and in considerable numbers to realize that future.
    This is a simple truth that our promoters of never ending war just never seem to understand. I am gobsmacked to be in a position of agreeing with anything spewing from PJB’s poison pen….because he is, in just about every respect, a total and complete racist asshole.
    Strange bedfellows indeed.
    But Donald Trump was not elected to do that. Or so some of us thought.
    WTF, Pat? Did you really believe a narcissistic asshole like Trump could resist the siren call of “easy” military victory? There is an easy rule of thumb here. If Obama was for it, Trump will be agin’ it….no matter what.

  555. …the siren call of “easy” military victory?
    Have any of them bothered to look at a map? 80M people, more than double the size of Texas, mountains all over the place, nowhere to stage a ground invasion from…
    Well, the man in charge is the one who asked what good nuclear weapons were if we couldn’t use them.

  556. …the siren call of “easy” military victory?
    Have any of them bothered to look at a map? 80M people, more than double the size of Texas, mountains all over the place, nowhere to stage a ground invasion from…
    Well, the man in charge is the one who asked what good nuclear weapons were if we couldn’t use them.

  557. Hey, it would be easy. For Trump. After all, it wouldn’t be him getting shot at. (Or even his, to the extent he cares about that.)
    As for the troops? Well, “they knew what they signed up for”, right?

  558. Hey, it would be easy. For Trump. After all, it wouldn’t be him getting shot at. (Or even his, to the extent he cares about that.)
    As for the troops? Well, “they knew what they signed up for”, right?

  563. Marty, that is one if the most spot-on links ever posted at OBWI.
    I’ve been thinking along these lines without conclusions, but this guy formulates what I intuit.
    Thanks.

  564. Marty, that is one if the most spot-on links ever posted at OBWI.
    I’ve been thinking along these lines without conclusions, but this guy formulates what I intuit.
    Thanks.

  569. it wasn’t too long ago that McCain was ripping into Obama for saying pretty much exactly what McCain just said about Trump.
    Obama’s complaint was:

    And it’s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

    and McCain’s campaign said:

    “Barack Obama’s elitism allows him to believe that the American traditions that have contributed to the identity and greatness of this country are actually just frustrations and bitterness,”

    but now he’s all:

    …spurious nationalism cooked up by people who would rather find scapegoats than solve problems is as unpatriotic as an attachment to any other tired dogma of the past that Americans consigned to the ash heap of history…

    ?
    maybe McCain just likes to complain.

  570. it wasn’t too long ago that McCain was ripping into Obama for saying pretty much exactly what McCain just said about Trump.
    Obama’s complaint was:

    And it’s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

    and McCain’s campaign said:

    “Barack Obama’s elitism allows him to believe that the American traditions that have contributed to the identity and greatness of this country are actually just frustrations and bitterness,”

    but now he’s all:

    …spurious nationalism cooked up by people who would rather find scapegoats than solve problems is as unpatriotic as an attachment to any other tired dogma of the past that Americans consigned to the ash heap of history…

    ?
    maybe McCain just likes to complain.

  573. Well, cleek, they are talking about two different things. Obama had no problem, and regularly got McCain’s support, on our “leaders of the free world” interventionist policy.
    Trump, wants us to back off trying to be the world government.
    The words sound the same but the policy he’s criticizing is very different.

  574. Well, cleek, they are talking about two different things. Obama had no problem, and regularly got McCain’s support, on our “leaders of the free world” interventionist policy.
    Trump, wants us to back off trying to be the world government.
    The words sound the same but the policy he’s criticizing is very different.

  575. From Marty’s link:

    Friend of a friend owns a small chain of grocery stores in New Jersey. A few years ago, when Amazon got into groceries, he changed his mind about investing in the growth of his own business. He started buying Amazon shares with his investment capital instead. He saw what happened to Circuit City and Tower Records, Borders and Barnes & Noble. So he bought some Amazon and then he bought some more.
    This wasn’t retirement investing. This was something else. What should we call it? Disruption Insurance?
    I don’t know. Anyway, long story short, Amazon is up over a thousand percent over the last ten years, and [jersey accent]he don’t need the stores no more.[/jersey accent]

  576. From Marty’s link:

    Friend of a friend owns a small chain of grocery stores in New Jersey. A few years ago, when Amazon got into groceries, he changed his mind about investing in the growth of his own business. He started buying Amazon shares with his investment capital instead. He saw what happened to Circuit City and Tower Records, Borders and Barnes & Noble. So he bought some Amazon and then he bought some more.
    This wasn’t retirement investing. This was something else. What should we call it? Disruption Insurance?
    I don’t know. Anyway, long story short, Amazon is up over a thousand percent over the last ten years, and [jersey accent]he don’t need the stores no more.[/jersey accent]

  577. I cracked open another thread with Marty’s link. I thought of using hairshirt’s quoted passage, but settled on another.

  578. I cracked open another thread with Marty’s link. I thought of using hairshirt’s quoted passage, but settled on another.

  579. Obama had no problem, and regularly got McCain’s support, on our “leaders of the free world” interventionist policy.
    Trump, wants us to back off trying to be the world government.
    I partly agree with the first part. McCain (and Clinton) wanted more intervention than Obama, so there was a lot of criticism of Obama from the foreign policy pro interventionist establishment during his time in office. Obama was an interventionist, but not enough of one by the lights of some.
    On Trump, he sometimes talked an anti-intervention line in the campaign and some conservatives at The American Conservative wanted to believe he meant it. But he also talked about taking oil and being much more brutal, so it was all self-contradictory. And now he seems to be setting the groundwork for war on Iran and N Korea. Well, with Korea it is largely incoherent. With Iran his policy makes sense if he wants to push Iran towards the hardliners and ultimately bomb or invade.

  580. Obama had no problem, and regularly got McCain’s support, on our “leaders of the free world” interventionist policy.
    Trump, wants us to back off trying to be the world government.
    I partly agree with the first part. McCain (and Clinton) wanted more intervention than Obama, so there was a lot of criticism of Obama from the foreign policy pro interventionist establishment during his time in office. Obama was an interventionist, but not enough of one by the lights of some.
    On Trump, he sometimes talked an anti-intervention line in the campaign and some conservatives at The American Conservative wanted to believe he meant it. But he also talked about taking oil and being much more brutal, so it was all self-contradictory. And now he seems to be setting the groundwork for war on Iran and N Korea. Well, with Korea it is largely incoherent. With Iran his policy makes sense if he wants to push Iran towards the hardliners and ultimately bomb or invade.

  585. http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/trump-majority-americans-think-reporters-make-up-stories
    the same people, the same 46% filth, listened to and read this shit below as the 2016 Presidential election, plenty of down market elections, and a Supreme Court Justice slot were stolen by anti-American traitors from the American people, in other words, ME:
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/russian-troll-farm-ran-twitter-account-posting-under-tennessee-gop-name
    There is a reckoning so spectacularly and ruthlessly vengeful coming to the traitors in the republican party and their willing dupes who stole our franchise on American soil.
    We’re gonna dance, but not like you think, comrades:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIsZE550Iz0

  586. http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/trump-majority-americans-think-reporters-make-up-stories
    the same people, the same 46% filth, listened to and read this shit below as the 2016 Presidential election, plenty of down market elections, and a Supreme Court Justice slot were stolen by anti-American traitors from the American people, in other words, ME:
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/russian-troll-farm-ran-twitter-account-posting-under-tennessee-gop-name
    There is a reckoning so spectacularly and ruthlessly vengeful coming to the traitors in the republican party and their willing dupes who stole our franchise on American soil.
    We’re gonna dance, but not like you think, comrades:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIsZE550Iz0

  591. From the Count’s like to TPM (at 12:59): “a new poll showing that nearly half of Americans believe the news media is inventing stories”
    I’m not surprised in the least. After all, if you include Fox News in “the news media”, I think that a substantially majority of those here would AGREE that the news media invents stories.
    It’s all about who you believe and who you don’t. Or, perhaps, whether you occasionally confirm/refute stories with your own research.

  592. From the Count’s like to TPM (at 12:59): “a new poll showing that nearly half of Americans believe the news media is inventing stories”
    I’m not surprised in the least. After all, if you include Fox News in “the news media”, I think that a substantially majority of those here would AGREE that the news media invents stories.
    It’s all about who you believe and who you don’t. Or, perhaps, whether you occasionally confirm/refute stories with your own research.

  593. From the Count’s 1:24…
    “Where did ‘one person, one vote’ come from?” she [RBG] asked him.
    (Let us now pause here for your moment of existential terror. The arguments in Gill easily could lead one to believe that the conservative wing of the Court may be one vote away from “re-examining” Reynolds v. Sims, the 1964 Warren Court decision that established one-man-one-vote….

  594. From the Count’s 1:24…
    “Where did ‘one person, one vote’ come from?” she [RBG] asked him.
    (Let us now pause here for your moment of existential terror. The arguments in Gill easily could lead one to believe that the conservative wing of the Court may be one vote away from “re-examining” Reynolds v. Sims, the 1964 Warren Court decision that established one-man-one-vote….

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