by wj
I couldn’t find a place to put this, so . . . new open thread!
I ran across this:
President Trump and Senate Minority Leader Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.) have agreed to pursue a deal that would permanently remove the requirement that Congress repeatedly raise the debt ceiling.
Getting rid of the debt ceiling seems like an idea whose time is way overdue. Nobody can argue that it has achieved its avowed purpose: forcing Congress to constrain spending. All it really does is provide an occasion for a whole lot of really stupid posturing. So good riddance — if they manage to actually pull it off.
I confess that I was skeptical at first about just pushing the debt limit issue out 3 months. But if what that does is provide time to ditch it entirely? Hallelujah!
I’m not getting my hopes up on this. Except that I am getting my hopes up.
Yes, I know that putting any faith in a statement from Trump is folly. But still, just the fact that he said it at all has to be getting knickers in a twist across the far right.
Yes, I know that putting any faith in a statement from Trump is folly. But still, just the fact that he said it at all has to be getting knickers in a twist across the far right.
So much for the resistance. I can remember way back whenever when it was “Nothing never, not gonna bail the bastards out.”
But the bond markets rule Democrats.
So much for the resistance. I can remember way back whenever when it was “Nothing never, not gonna bail the bastards out.”
But the bond markets rule Democrats.
Sounds good to me.
Sounds good to me.
And the centrists support the Senator from Wall Street, which would be ecstatic to get rid of the debt ceiling.
I vote for the third option. Default and jubilee. I will never ever support a bipartisan deal with these racists and fascists. Let it blow.
Another reason to hate Obama, and to be very wary of Clinton.
And the centrists support the Senator from Wall Street, which would be ecstatic to get rid of the debt ceiling.
I vote for the third option. Default and jubilee. I will never ever support a bipartisan deal with these racists and fascists. Let it blow.
Another reason to hate Obama, and to be very wary of Clinton.
l has to be getting knickers in a twist across the far right.
across some of the (far?) left, too. i’ve seen people complaining that this eliminates a pressure point Dems could have used as leverage in future negotiations.
which, i guess, is true. but it’s just about as cynical as can be.
l has to be getting knickers in a twist across the far right.
across some of the (far?) left, too. i’ve seen people complaining that this eliminates a pressure point Dems could have used as leverage in future negotiations.
which, i guess, is true. but it’s just about as cynical as can be.
Whatever. Enjoy your comity and Republican friends.
A lot of ruin in a nation, we can handle more.
We can’t survive a perception that we have legitimate negotiating partners on the lyncher rapist side of the aisle.
Whatever. Enjoy your comity and Republican friends.
A lot of ruin in a nation, we can handle more.
We can’t survive a perception that we have legitimate negotiating partners on the lyncher rapist side of the aisle.
maybe democracy isn’t for you, bob.
maybe democracy isn’t for you, bob.
We can’t survive a perception that we have legitimate negotiating partners on the lyncher rapist side of the aisle.
Kind of an absolutist position, don’t you think? If you can somehow get things you want, in exchange for stuff that you don’t much care about (or even, it appears, in exchange for nothing more than kind words), what’s not to like?
Sure, the other party is a scumbag. But as a nation, we do deals with scumbags all the time. And as an individual, that happens from time to time as well. Certainly I’d prefer to deal only with good people; unfortunately, that’s not always one of the possible options.
We can’t survive a perception that we have legitimate negotiating partners on the lyncher rapist side of the aisle.
Kind of an absolutist position, don’t you think? If you can somehow get things you want, in exchange for stuff that you don’t much care about (or even, it appears, in exchange for nothing more than kind words), what’s not to like?
Sure, the other party is a scumbag. But as a nation, we do deals with scumbags all the time. And as an individual, that happens from time to time as well. Certainly I’d prefer to deal only with good people; unfortunately, that’s not always one of the possible options.
…unfortunately, that’s not always one of the possible options.
Sure, when the big money is involved. Obama signed the austerity budgets. Deals are always to be made when the rich benefit.
Why oh why Bob do you foreground class? Because the liberal capitalists will make deals with the Right, legitimating and perpetuating both.
Also see: war and Empire.
Through here.
…unfortunately, that’s not always one of the possible options.
Sure, when the big money is involved. Obama signed the austerity budgets. Deals are always to be made when the rich benefit.
Why oh why Bob do you foreground class? Because the liberal capitalists will make deals with the Right, legitimating and perpetuating both.
Also see: war and Empire.
Through here.
Through here.
See? Even when you lose, you can’t win.
Cribbed from The Onion via LGM:
BATON ROUGE, LA—As punishing wind and rain from the former Hurricane Harvey made landfall, government officials urged Louisiana residents Wednesday to evacuate dangerous lower income brackets. “Given the extent of the potential destruction, we urge anyone in the path of the storm to make their way to higher median incomes immediately,” said Louisiana Gov. John Bel Edwards, adding that residents should resist any urge to wait out the dangerous weather below the poverty line and proceed directly to a higher tax bracket. “We know from experience that in hazardous conditions like these, the safest place for Louisianans to be is at least four or five times wealthier than they are now. This is no time to take risks—please, leave right now and make your way to the upper-middle class if at all possible.” Edwards went on to say that while no one could be forcibly evacuated, anyone who chose to remain in a lower income bracket should not expect to receive help anytime soon.
’bout sums it up.
Through here.
See? Even when you lose, you can’t win.
Cribbed from The Onion via LGM:
BATON ROUGE, LA—As punishing wind and rain from the former Hurricane Harvey made landfall, government officials urged Louisiana residents Wednesday to evacuate dangerous lower income brackets. “Given the extent of the potential destruction, we urge anyone in the path of the storm to make their way to higher median incomes immediately,” said Louisiana Gov. John Bel Edwards, adding that residents should resist any urge to wait out the dangerous weather below the poverty line and proceed directly to a higher tax bracket. “We know from experience that in hazardous conditions like these, the safest place for Louisianans to be is at least four or five times wealthier than they are now. This is no time to take risks—please, leave right now and make your way to the upper-middle class if at all possible.” Edwards went on to say that while no one could be forcibly evacuated, anyone who chose to remain in a lower income bracket should not expect to receive help anytime soon.
’bout sums it up.
Through here.
Then where not? Where do your views resonate such that they will have the force of action, to effect the change you seek?
Through here.
Then where not? Where do your views resonate such that they will have the force of action, to effect the change you seek?
Since this is an open thread:https://www.amazon.com/Once-Was-Lost-But-Found/dp/194604413X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1504818256&sr=8-2&keywords=laura+koerber
Since this is an open thread:https://www.amazon.com/Once-Was-Lost-But-Found/dp/194604413X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1504818256&sr=8-2&keywords=laura+koerber
We can’t survive a perception that we have legitimate negotiating partners on the lyncher rapist side of the aisle.
I just figure folks like that have always been part of the mix here, they’re not going away, and I might as well suck it up and get the best deal I can.
Too many of them for me to shoot, plus I don’t like jail. Don’t really like shooting people, for that matter.
Through here.
C’mon man, don’t be that way! I know I’m glad to have you here.
We can’t survive a perception that we have legitimate negotiating partners on the lyncher rapist side of the aisle.
I just figure folks like that have always been part of the mix here, they’re not going away, and I might as well suck it up and get the best deal I can.
Too many of them for me to shoot, plus I don’t like jail. Don’t really like shooting people, for that matter.
Through here.
C’mon man, don’t be that way! I know I’m glad to have you here.
Congratulations, wonkie! Looking forward to reading it!
Congratulations, wonkie! Looking forward to reading it!
My dog rescue book has just become available on Amazon. Its the story of the rescue of the Olympic Animal Sanctuary dogs–the largest dog rescue to be carried out without support of local authorities Its is a story of assaults, protests, lawsuits,and small town corruption and abuse of power. I took me two years to write. The text includes the police files released under state law, eye witness accounts, lots of photos, and additional essays by professional dog behaviorists.
All proceeds will be donated to the rescues that took in the surviving dogs.
Thank you, Laura
My dog rescue book has just become available on Amazon. Its the story of the rescue of the Olympic Animal Sanctuary dogs–the largest dog rescue to be carried out without support of local authorities Its is a story of assaults, protests, lawsuits,and small town corruption and abuse of power. I took me two years to write. The text includes the police files released under state law, eye witness accounts, lots of photos, and additional essays by professional dog behaviorists.
All proceeds will be donated to the rescues that took in the surviving dogs.
Thank you, Laura
A thing can be true even if Donald Trump says it.
A thing can be true even if Donald Trump says it.
The debt ceiling cudgel is simply a toy that is too dangerous for congresscritters to play with. take it away from them.
bring back pork.
The debt ceiling cudgel is simply a toy that is too dangerous for congresscritters to play with. take it away from them.
bring back pork.
Well thank you all for letting me promote here. When the dogs were finally rescued, they went to paces all the US. many were in bad shape physically and emotionally and the rescues that accepted them had big expenses. I would like to give back to them. I was involved in the rescue itself–went to protests, filed a consumer fraud complaint and did my best to get one of the officers fired from his state job. The dogs were finally rescued on Christmas Eve, a little more than a year after a formal complaint about conditions was made to the local police. Sorry to say, it was the Chair of the local Democratic party who used political influence to squash the prosecution. Proud to say it was Washington states AG, Ferguson who is always suing Trump, who prosecuted the dog’s owner for consumer fraud.
Well thank you all for letting me promote here. When the dogs were finally rescued, they went to paces all the US. many were in bad shape physically and emotionally and the rescues that accepted them had big expenses. I would like to give back to them. I was involved in the rescue itself–went to protests, filed a consumer fraud complaint and did my best to get one of the officers fired from his state job. The dogs were finally rescued on Christmas Eve, a little more than a year after a formal complaint about conditions was made to the local police. Sorry to say, it was the Chair of the local Democratic party who used political influence to squash the prosecution. Proud to say it was Washington states AG, Ferguson who is always suing Trump, who prosecuted the dog’s owner for consumer fraud.
“We can’t survive a perception that we have legitimate negotiating partners on the lyncher rapist side of the aisle.”
Much of the negotiation is saying “nice doggy” while looking around for a stick. People negotiated with dictators and terrorists, refusing to do so is reminiscent of Dubya’s diplomatic approach.
If the congressional GOP were of a similar mettle as our own wj, a more collegial negotiation would occur. Alas, it is not to be.
“We can’t survive a perception that we have legitimate negotiating partners on the lyncher rapist side of the aisle.”
Much of the negotiation is saying “nice doggy” while looking around for a stick. People negotiated with dictators and terrorists, refusing to do so is reminiscent of Dubya’s diplomatic approach.
If the congressional GOP were of a similar mettle as our own wj, a more collegial negotiation would occur. Alas, it is not to be.
I couldn’t find a place to put this
Sanity is in such short supply these days, it’s like a strange new genus previously unknown to scientists…
Taking Bob’s point, I’m wondering how different what he says is to a ‘heighten the contradictions’ stance?
Wonkie, give me a week and I’ll put that up as a front page post.
I couldn’t find a place to put this
Sanity is in such short supply these days, it’s like a strange new genus previously unknown to scientists…
Taking Bob’s point, I’m wondering how different what he says is to a ‘heighten the contradictions’ stance?
Wonkie, give me a week and I’ll put that up as a front page post.
Maybe not permanently. but I get tired.
What was the point of “resistance”? Of refusing all deals?
To let the psychos fail. McConnell and Ryan can’t find the votes for extension in the gibbering caucus.
So after a default (and remember,SA and Japan ain’t gonna empty the vaults on day one), or close enough to terrify Krugman, whatever damage accrues (and the money markets will know who to blame) will belong to Republicans.
Going into 2018.
Now Republicans can run the midterms on “Democrats voted themselves unlimited, infinite borrowing capacity. Do you want to also give them budget authority?”
Shit yes, McConnell is grinning ear to ear. Obamacare goes down in 2019, after big gains in both houses.
But Schumer will get tons of bank campaign money, as will Gillibrand, Booker, and Patrick.
October 2008 redux.
Give me Democrats that can take losses, to paraphrase Lincoln about Grant.
And that’s just one argument.
Maybe not permanently. but I get tired.
What was the point of “resistance”? Of refusing all deals?
To let the psychos fail. McConnell and Ryan can’t find the votes for extension in the gibbering caucus.
So after a default (and remember,SA and Japan ain’t gonna empty the vaults on day one), or close enough to terrify Krugman, whatever damage accrues (and the money markets will know who to blame) will belong to Republicans.
Going into 2018.
Now Republicans can run the midterms on “Democrats voted themselves unlimited, infinite borrowing capacity. Do you want to also give them budget authority?”
Shit yes, McConnell is grinning ear to ear. Obamacare goes down in 2019, after big gains in both houses.
But Schumer will get tons of bank campaign money, as will Gillibrand, Booker, and Patrick.
October 2008 redux.
Give me Democrats that can take losses, to paraphrase Lincoln about Grant.
And that’s just one argument.
Murderer Mulvaney:
“Clearing the decks and getting these things out of the way for now, was, I think, the right call, and allows us to focus on what’s important,” Mulvaney said. “Not only to the administration but to the folks the President represents.”
Get that last sentence. Anyone here in that group?
Thanks Mulvaney, you low fuck, you vermin murderer, for giving the game away in plain language.
Not since the South chose NOT be represented by Abraham Lincoln, the President of the United States, has the bond between all of the citizens of the United States and their President been so violated.
I am not represented. Not my gummint. As a Founding Father, I declare Death to the tyrants.
Mulvaney is nothing but the King’s emissary.
Murderer Mulvaney:
“Clearing the decks and getting these things out of the way for now, was, I think, the right call, and allows us to focus on what’s important,” Mulvaney said. “Not only to the administration but to the folks the President represents.”
Get that last sentence. Anyone here in that group?
Thanks Mulvaney, you low fuck, you vermin murderer, for giving the game away in plain language.
Not since the South chose NOT be represented by Abraham Lincoln, the President of the United States, has the bond between all of the citizens of the United States and their President been so violated.
I am not represented. Not my gummint. As a Founding Father, I declare Death to the tyrants.
Mulvaney is nothing but the King’s emissary.
Thanks Bob. Not sure if I agree, the base of the Democratic party is, I think, one that is turned off by total resistance (unlike the base of the Republican party, which seems to find almost sexual satisfaction with the idea, hence Rolling Coal trucks and climate change stupidity), so there has to be some appearance of moderation.
It’s also funny that some people are saying that McConnell and Ryan are playing n-dimensional chess (ex Drum)
A counterweight to this concentration on class is Coates recent piece, that puts the whole thing on racism
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/10/the-first-white-president-ta-nehisi-coates/537909/
Thanks Bob. Not sure if I agree, the base of the Democratic party is, I think, one that is turned off by total resistance (unlike the base of the Republican party, which seems to find almost sexual satisfaction with the idea, hence Rolling Coal trucks and climate change stupidity), so there has to be some appearance of moderation.
It’s also funny that some people are saying that McConnell and Ryan are playing n-dimensional chess (ex Drum)
A counterweight to this concentration on class is Coates recent piece, that puts the whole thing on racism
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/10/the-first-white-president-ta-nehisi-coates/537909/
I’m with BOB. Let the Repubicans burn the place down. That’s the only thing that will let sanity back into our politics. Anything else is enabling.
Japanese Japonicus, that would be extremely nice of you. If anyone is interested in doing some googling, the money will go to Safe Haven in Nevada, Lionel’s Legacy in California, Gentle Giants in New Jersey, and Chicagoland Eskimo Rescue and AARF in Seattle among other places. I hope to make enough money to give at least a half dozen rescues.
I’m with BOB. Let the Repubicans burn the place down. That’s the only thing that will let sanity back into our politics. Anything else is enabling.
Japanese Japonicus, that would be extremely nice of you. If anyone is interested in doing some googling, the money will go to Safe Haven in Nevada, Lionel’s Legacy in California, Gentle Giants in New Jersey, and Chicagoland Eskimo Rescue and AARF in Seattle among other places. I hope to make enough money to give at least a half dozen rescues.
“I’m with BOB. Let the Repubicans burn the place down. That’s the only thing that will let sanity back into our politics.”
Don’t start the fire now, or it will burn out too soon to have enough effect on the 2018 midterms.
Did you think that Dubya would poison the GOP brand for a generation? ADHD America can’t seem to keep a coherent thought for more than one TV season (hence 2010).
Timing, people. Timing.
“I’m with BOB. Let the Repubicans burn the place down. That’s the only thing that will let sanity back into our politics.”
Don’t start the fire now, or it will burn out too soon to have enough effect on the 2018 midterms.
Did you think that Dubya would poison the GOP brand for a generation? ADHD America can’t seem to keep a coherent thought for more than one TV season (hence 2010).
Timing, people. Timing.
I’m with BOB. Let the Repubicans burn the place down.
I’m not. Fires are easy to start, hard to control, and hard to put out. And they do a lot of damage in expected and unexpected ways.
The debt ceiling is ridiculous and dangerous. Get rid of it. I’ve favored that for a long time, and the fact that Donald Trump agrees with me isn’t going to change my mind.
I’m with BOB. Let the Repubicans burn the place down.
I’m not. Fires are easy to start, hard to control, and hard to put out. And they do a lot of damage in expected and unexpected ways.
The debt ceiling is ridiculous and dangerous. Get rid of it. I’ve favored that for a long time, and the fact that Donald Trump agrees with me isn’t going to change my mind.
id you think that Dubya would poison the GOP brand for a generation?
Never mind Dubya, people were saying this about Trump right up to the time the returns started to come in last November.
Fires are easy to start, hard to control, and hard to put out. And they do a lot of damage in expected and unexpected ways.
Seconded.
id you think that Dubya would poison the GOP brand for a generation?
Never mind Dubya, people were saying this about Trump right up to the time the returns started to come in last November.
Fires are easy to start, hard to control, and hard to put out. And they do a lot of damage in expected and unexpected ways.
Seconded.
Fires are easy to start, hard to control, and hard to put out. And they do a lot of damage in expected and unexpected ways.
This. Also, Trump is enough of a fire. I don’t want any more smoldering than is already going on. I’d actually like to have a country left if we can get rid of him.
Fires are easy to start, hard to control, and hard to put out. And they do a lot of damage in expected and unexpected ways.
This. Also, Trump is enough of a fire. I don’t want any more smoldering than is already going on. I’d actually like to have a country left if we can get rid of him.
To let the psychos fail. McConnell and Ryan can’t find the votes for extension in the gibbering caucus.
So after a default (and remember,SA and Japan ain’t gonna empty the vaults on day one), or close enough to terrify Krugman, whatever damage accrues (and the money markets will know who to blame) will belong to Republicans.
“whatever damage accrues” is a damn flippant way to dismiss an economic disaster which impacts vastly more people than just politicians. If you’ve got your own farm, you might be OK. Anyone who doesn’t? Toast.
What we’re looking at is a mess that would make the Great Depression look like a cakewalk. The onset would be more gradual, but the smash would be worse . . . and we would be standing there watching it coming and unable to do a thing about it.
To let the psychos fail. McConnell and Ryan can’t find the votes for extension in the gibbering caucus.
So after a default (and remember,SA and Japan ain’t gonna empty the vaults on day one), or close enough to terrify Krugman, whatever damage accrues (and the money markets will know who to blame) will belong to Republicans.
“whatever damage accrues” is a damn flippant way to dismiss an economic disaster which impacts vastly more people than just politicians. If you’ve got your own farm, you might be OK. Anyone who doesn’t? Toast.
What we’re looking at is a mess that would make the Great Depression look like a cakewalk. The onset would be more gradual, but the smash would be worse . . . and we would be standing there watching it coming and unable to do a thing about it.
I tend to agree with Janie, sapient and wj, but this
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/manchin-splits-with-other-red-state-democrats-praises-trumps-daca-move
Makes me think that Bob has a point…
I tend to agree with Janie, sapient and wj, but this
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/manchin-splits-with-other-red-state-democrats-praises-trumps-daca-move
Makes me think that Bob has a point…
Makes me think that Bob has a point…
Still not sure what that point is. Impoverishing the whole world isn’t going to suddenly enlighten West Virginia.
Manchin doesn’t care about DACA recipients because West Virginia has very few DACA recipients. Of course, West Virginians follow the pattern of hating immigrants when most of them have never seen one.
Makes me think that Bob has a point…
Still not sure what that point is. Impoverishing the whole world isn’t going to suddenly enlighten West Virginia.
Manchin doesn’t care about DACA recipients because West Virginia has very few DACA recipients. Of course, West Virginians follow the pattern of hating immigrants when most of them have never seen one.
What we’re looking at is a mess that would make the Great Depression look like a cakewalk.
So a 48 hour suspension of interest and rollover and nobody buys American Treasuries ever again. And dogs eat corpses in the street.
I heard this stuff in 2008. A whole lot of economists and citizens work for the banks, and yeah, they say servicing debt is sacred sacred and if a payment is missed the sky will fall. It is very hard to get a decent analysis of the consequences, near and medium-term.
They can just repossess our carriers.
We ain’t Greece or Puerto Rico or even Argentina.
Countries used to default all the time. Default isn’t Jubilee, sorry to say.
Sovereign Defaults
What we’re looking at is a mess that would make the Great Depression look like a cakewalk.
So a 48 hour suspension of interest and rollover and nobody buys American Treasuries ever again. And dogs eat corpses in the street.
I heard this stuff in 2008. A whole lot of economists and citizens work for the banks, and yeah, they say servicing debt is sacred sacred and if a payment is missed the sky will fall. It is very hard to get a decent analysis of the consequences, near and medium-term.
They can just repossess our carriers.
We ain’t Greece or Puerto Rico or even Argentina.
Countries used to default all the time. Default isn’t Jubilee, sorry to say.
Sovereign Defaults
And one of the first things FDR did on taking office was a form of default. Allowing inflation is a form of default. Devaluations are defaults.
“The Gold Reserve Act of 1934 made gold clauses unenforceable, and changed the value of gold from $20.67 to $35 per ounce, thereby devaluing the U.S. dollar, as the dollar was gold-based.”
In a gold standard economy, what did that do to gold-based securities?
But yes, people will get hurt. That is what I meant by taking losses. Better to be a hostage to banks and Republicans?
And one of the first things FDR did on taking office was a form of default. Allowing inflation is a form of default. Devaluations are defaults.
“The Gold Reserve Act of 1934 made gold clauses unenforceable, and changed the value of gold from $20.67 to $35 per ounce, thereby devaluing the U.S. dollar, as the dollar was gold-based.”
In a gold standard economy, what did that do to gold-based securities?
But yes, people will get hurt. That is what I meant by taking losses. Better to be a hostage to banks and Republicans?
Better to find a less apocalyptic means to get shut of the folks you don’t like.
Do you have any idea of how much we benefit from our position as the safest place to put assets? Sure, people would buy American Treasuries again. But they would no longer do so at the dirt cheap rates that we get today. And they wouldn’t do so until we rebuilt our reputation.
You may be fine with us being a third world country for a few decades. Amazingly enough, a whole lot of people aren’t.
P.S. How do you personally expect to ride out the mess? Got funds in foreign currency, and a place to live there, until the dust settles? Because if you are staying in the US, and have all your assets here, you are in for a really nasty shock.
Better to find a less apocalyptic means to get shut of the folks you don’t like.
Do you have any idea of how much we benefit from our position as the safest place to put assets? Sure, people would buy American Treasuries again. But they would no longer do so at the dirt cheap rates that we get today. And they wouldn’t do so until we rebuilt our reputation.
You may be fine with us being a third world country for a few decades. Amazingly enough, a whole lot of people aren’t.
P.S. How do you personally expect to ride out the mess? Got funds in foreign currency, and a place to live there, until the dust settles? Because if you are staying in the US, and have all your assets here, you are in for a really nasty shock.
Brain is tired, back tomorrow. Time for some Excel Saga and Full Metal Panic. Just finished 148 episodes of Hunter x Hunter.
Also in the last 30 days: Visconti, Rohmer, Cocteau, Techine, Duviver, De Sica, Chabrol (2), Godard, Bergman, Lucrezia Martel, and Fukasuka.
Alternate nights.
Brain is tired, back tomorrow. Time for some Excel Saga and Full Metal Panic. Just finished 148 episodes of Hunter x Hunter.
Also in the last 30 days: Visconti, Rohmer, Cocteau, Techine, Duviver, De Sica, Chabrol (2), Godard, Bergman, Lucrezia Martel, and Fukasuka.
Alternate nights.
Countries used to default all the time
fwiw, that is not an attractive list of precedents.
just saying.
Brain is tired, back tomorrow
I hear ya.
Countries used to default all the time
fwiw, that is not an attractive list of precedents.
just saying.
Brain is tired, back tomorrow
I hear ya.
bob mcmanus seems to truly believe that defaulting would hurt Republicans and Moneybags guys more than the ensuing recession (or depression) would hurt millions of regular people. I hope that when he’s gotten some rest, etc., he’ll realize that this is *nuts*.
Among other things, this implies that the only group in Congress that truly cares about the bottom half (or three-quarters) of the income distribution is the Republican Freedom Caucus. No, I don’t think so.
We were talking about this over dinner tonight, and I said I thought most Congresspeople opposed to raising the debt ceiling, like the majority of the general public who oppose it, think it’s about limiting the government’s ability to take on *future* debt, they don’t understand it’s about whether we pay the credit card bills we’ve already run up.
Mr Dr Science disagreed: he thinks all the GOP Congresspeople *know* not raising the debt ceiling would be to stiff our creditors, to refuse to pay our bills, and they’re willing to do it anyway.
What do you guys who’ve actually heard these guys talk on the TeeVee Box think? Does the Freedom Caucus (et al.) really want to hurt creditors? Do they for some reason want to cause a recession? Or are they basically confused?
bob mcmanus seems to truly believe that defaulting would hurt Republicans and Moneybags guys more than the ensuing recession (or depression) would hurt millions of regular people. I hope that when he’s gotten some rest, etc., he’ll realize that this is *nuts*.
Among other things, this implies that the only group in Congress that truly cares about the bottom half (or three-quarters) of the income distribution is the Republican Freedom Caucus. No, I don’t think so.
We were talking about this over dinner tonight, and I said I thought most Congresspeople opposed to raising the debt ceiling, like the majority of the general public who oppose it, think it’s about limiting the government’s ability to take on *future* debt, they don’t understand it’s about whether we pay the credit card bills we’ve already run up.
Mr Dr Science disagreed: he thinks all the GOP Congresspeople *know* not raising the debt ceiling would be to stiff our creditors, to refuse to pay our bills, and they’re willing to do it anyway.
What do you guys who’ve actually heard these guys talk on the TeeVee Box think? Does the Freedom Caucus (et al.) really want to hurt creditors? Do they for some reason want to cause a recession? Or are they basically confused?
I think they are quite clear that defaulting on the debt would be to stiff our creditors. And they just don’t give a damn. Maybe they figure that it would be just not paying a bunch of foreign, mostly foreign government, creditors (and who cares about them?). Maybe they figure that anyone who buys bonds from the Federal government deserves whatever happens.
But no, I don’t think ignorance is the reason.
I think they are quite clear that defaulting on the debt would be to stiff our creditors. And they just don’t give a damn. Maybe they figure that it would be just not paying a bunch of foreign, mostly foreign government, creditors (and who cares about them?). Maybe they figure that anyone who buys bonds from the Federal government deserves whatever happens.
But no, I don’t think ignorance is the reason.
The Republicans in Congress do not know what the debt ceiling is, do not know what would happen if they refused to lift it and and would not believe anything they were told about it.
The Republicans in Congress do not know what the debt ceiling is, do not know what would happen if they refused to lift it and and would not believe anything they were told about it.
I don’t know about legislators; I don’t have one of those TeeVee Boxes myself, nor do I tend to tune in to legislators online.
But I suspect, partly from things a few people have said in my presence, and partly from a general sense of how little most people understand about big money in general, that many, many voters think this is about letting the “national debt” get ever larger. (Those nasty Democrats and lefties want to spend ever more money on *those* people.)
And I would further guess that that misunderstanding is precisely what “the Freedom Caucus (et al.)” is banking on. No pun intended.
I don’t know about legislators; I don’t have one of those TeeVee Boxes myself, nor do I tend to tune in to legislators online.
But I suspect, partly from things a few people have said in my presence, and partly from a general sense of how little most people understand about big money in general, that many, many voters think this is about letting the “national debt” get ever larger. (Those nasty Democrats and lefties want to spend ever more money on *those* people.)
And I would further guess that that misunderstanding is precisely what “the Freedom Caucus (et al.)” is banking on. No pun intended.
two thirds of the US debt is held by, well, us.
Thus the “Freedom” (sic) Caucus is mostly a bunch of lunatics looking for a rake to stomp on.
….and what wonkie said at 11:27 above.
two thirds of the US debt is held by, well, us.
Thus the “Freedom” (sic) Caucus is mostly a bunch of lunatics looking for a rake to stomp on.
….and what wonkie said at 11:27 above.
You may be fine with us being a third world country for a few decades.
A “strong” currency contributes to our trade imbalance. Our trade imbalance ships jobs overseas. The cost to our prosperity from this falls on lower income working people.
I do not feel a “strong dollar” is the unalloyed good you make it out to be, wj.
You may be fine with us being a third world country for a few decades.
A “strong” currency contributes to our trade imbalance. Our trade imbalance ships jobs overseas. The cost to our prosperity from this falls on lower income working people.
I do not feel a “strong dollar” is the unalloyed good you make it out to be, wj.
This gives a fairly persuasive picture of the Trump mind – dangerous children play nice once in a while, but it tends not to last:
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/07/trump-jovial-after-debt-deal-242466?lo=ap_b1
This gives a fairly persuasive picture of the Trump mind – dangerous children play nice once in a while, but it tends not to last:
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/07/trump-jovial-after-debt-deal-242466?lo=ap_b1
Couldn’t resist: Coates strikes again.
Powerful stuff. Read the whole thing.
Couldn’t resist: Coates strikes again.
Powerful stuff. Read the whole thing.
I find it remarkable that we are still pondering whether this “thing” that has crawled up the republican party’s fundament over the past 40 years is simply ignorant or rather deliberately, malignantly sociopathic.
No doubt the latter feeds upon the former, as Janie guesses, but even the ignorant seem to revel sadistically in their “so what” ignorance.
I’ve been struck over the years, both in personal interactions with ardent right-wingers, once represented here but no longer, and of course by observing the behavior and rhetoric of these new brand of republicans via the media and internet, by which I mean their very words, not the words liberals might put in their mouths, by the sadistic glee they take in the harm and hurt their “policy” prescriptions will inflict.
Listen to any interview with a “freedom” caucus member. Hatred oozes from their pores, accompanied by shitfaced grins about their “ideals” and their “principles”.
Whether it’s torture, or the dreamers, or Obamacare recipients, or simply a fucking free school lunch for a kid.
Never underestimate what we are dealing with:
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2017/09/08/so-i-elected-an-axe-murderer/
rump beshat from his mouth the other day this fatuous, meaningless crap, the sort of thing he and his sons on the way out the door of the brothel tell prostitutes who were tied to beds a few minutes earlier: “We love the Dreamers. We love everyone.”
Paul Ryan speaks in much the same affectionate way about his victims. What he is doing “for” them. Show me one instance, one expression of love, romantic or otherwise, in “Atlas Shrugged”.
What do they know of love? They are revulsed by the human objects they claim to “love”.
What they mean by love is pain and dominance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7vXc2HsMZg
I find it remarkable that we are still pondering whether this “thing” that has crawled up the republican party’s fundament over the past 40 years is simply ignorant or rather deliberately, malignantly sociopathic.
No doubt the latter feeds upon the former, as Janie guesses, but even the ignorant seem to revel sadistically in their “so what” ignorance.
I’ve been struck over the years, both in personal interactions with ardent right-wingers, once represented here but no longer, and of course by observing the behavior and rhetoric of these new brand of republicans via the media and internet, by which I mean their very words, not the words liberals might put in their mouths, by the sadistic glee they take in the harm and hurt their “policy” prescriptions will inflict.
Listen to any interview with a “freedom” caucus member. Hatred oozes from their pores, accompanied by shitfaced grins about their “ideals” and their “principles”.
Whether it’s torture, or the dreamers, or Obamacare recipients, or simply a fucking free school lunch for a kid.
Never underestimate what we are dealing with:
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2017/09/08/so-i-elected-an-axe-murderer/
rump beshat from his mouth the other day this fatuous, meaningless crap, the sort of thing he and his sons on the way out the door of the brothel tell prostitutes who were tied to beds a few minutes earlier: “We love the Dreamers. We love everyone.”
Paul Ryan speaks in much the same affectionate way about his victims. What he is doing “for” them. Show me one instance, one expression of love, romantic or otherwise, in “Atlas Shrugged”.
What do they know of love? They are revulsed by the human objects they claim to “love”.
What they mean by love is pain and dominance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7vXc2HsMZg
Coates nails rump.
Coates nails rump.
A “strong” currency contributes to our trade imbalance. Our trade imbalance ships jobs overseas. The cost to our prosperity from this falls on lower income working people.
A strong currency allows us to import stuff cheaply. Which helps lower income people, who buy lots of that cheap stuff.
The “cost of our prosperity” only falls on lower income people because our income distribution is so screwed up these days. There are a number of reasons for that, not least tax policy. But the strong dollar isn’t a significant contributor.
A “strong” currency contributes to our trade imbalance. Our trade imbalance ships jobs overseas. The cost to our prosperity from this falls on lower income working people.
A strong currency allows us to import stuff cheaply. Which helps lower income people, who buy lots of that cheap stuff.
The “cost of our prosperity” only falls on lower income people because our income distribution is so screwed up these days. There are a number of reasons for that, not least tax policy. But the strong dollar isn’t a significant contributor.
sapient, don’t want to get in a fight here, but reading that Manchin was the _only_ red state democrat to praise the DACA, I’m thinking, maybe the Democrats ought to go for the jugular more often, i.e Bob has a point. I don’t give a shit if there are no DACA recipients in WV, if Manchin feels he has to do that to get elected, screw him. Primary his ass.
Obviously, this is a bit of a sensitive subject with me, given where I am and where I am from, but if we are going to tolerate tossing DACA recipients to the shark, I wonder what else would be tolerated.
sapient, don’t want to get in a fight here, but reading that Manchin was the _only_ red state democrat to praise the DACA, I’m thinking, maybe the Democrats ought to go for the jugular more often, i.e Bob has a point. I don’t give a shit if there are no DACA recipients in WV, if Manchin feels he has to do that to get elected, screw him. Primary his ass.
Obviously, this is a bit of a sensitive subject with me, given where I am and where I am from, but if we are going to tolerate tossing DACA recipients to the shark, I wonder what else would be tolerated.
I’ve been struck over the years, both in personal interactions with ardent right-wingers, once represented here but no longer, and of course by observing the behavior and rhetoric of these new brand of republicans via the media and internet, by which I mean their very words, not the words liberals might put in their mouths, by the sadistic glee they take in the harm and hurt their “policy” prescriptions will inflict.
same here.
I’ve been struck over the years, both in personal interactions with ardent right-wingers, once represented here but no longer, and of course by observing the behavior and rhetoric of these new brand of republicans via the media and internet, by which I mean their very words, not the words liberals might put in their mouths, by the sadistic glee they take in the harm and hurt their “policy” prescriptions will inflict.
same here.
I remember plans to legislate that foreign debt holders get priority in case of a default (known as the ‘Pay China First Act’ by the critics). That would have been two squirrels with one stone since it would mean staying on good terms with the cherished creditors while offering a chance to kill the New Deal and related programs at last since the proposed legislation put SocSec payments right at the bottom.
I guess it was pure survival instinct to can that when the details leaked to mainstream media too early.
I remember plans to legislate that foreign debt holders get priority in case of a default (known as the ‘Pay China First Act’ by the critics). That would have been two squirrels with one stone since it would mean staying on good terms with the cherished creditors while offering a chance to kill the New Deal and related programs at last since the proposed legislation put SocSec payments right at the bottom.
I guess it was pure survival instinct to can that when the details leaked to mainstream media too early.
I just checked. They DID NOT can it in 2013 but passed it in the House as ‘Full Faith and Credit Act’along partisan lines 227-221.
I just checked. They DID NOT can it in 2013 but passed it in the House as ‘Full Faith and Credit Act’along partisan lines 227-221.
lj: According to the fivethirtyeight Trump Tracker, Manchin has voted with Trump 55.1% of the time so far this year, which is the highest for any Democrat. It’s still far short of the 79.6% of the most anti-Trump Republican, Susan Collins, and way short of the 93.6% you would expect a generic Senator from West Virginia to have. In other words, Manchin is worth an extra vote for the Dems in the Senate around 40% of the time vs. the generic Republican you are likely to get if you successfully primary Manchin. Even that understates his value, since that 40% will include many of the most important votes. With a R in Manchin’s seat, the ACA would have already been repealed. Let’s also not forget the superimportant upcoming vote in January 2018 for who gets to be the majority caucus.
So sure, I would prefer a WV Senator who would stand up for DACA, and I’ll be pissed at him if a DACA bill fails by one vote in the Senate. But unless you have a DACA-supporting primary opponent to propose who has a better chance of winning the general election in WV, I think the Dems should stick with Manchin, warts and all.
lj: According to the fivethirtyeight Trump Tracker, Manchin has voted with Trump 55.1% of the time so far this year, which is the highest for any Democrat. It’s still far short of the 79.6% of the most anti-Trump Republican, Susan Collins, and way short of the 93.6% you would expect a generic Senator from West Virginia to have. In other words, Manchin is worth an extra vote for the Dems in the Senate around 40% of the time vs. the generic Republican you are likely to get if you successfully primary Manchin. Even that understates his value, since that 40% will include many of the most important votes. With a R in Manchin’s seat, the ACA would have already been repealed. Let’s also not forget the superimportant upcoming vote in January 2018 for who gets to be the majority caucus.
So sure, I would prefer a WV Senator who would stand up for DACA, and I’ll be pissed at him if a DACA bill fails by one vote in the Senate. But unless you have a DACA-supporting primary opponent to propose who has a better chance of winning the general election in WV, I think the Dems should stick with Manchin, warts and all.
Strong recommendation for this book. It is partly about how institutional racism and imperialism became entrenched in the Anglo West, but also provides economic histories of Melbourne and Capetown to help disillusion any ideas about American exceptionalism. It is also a fun and easy read, with a lot to learn.
Replenishing The Earth
Honestly, it appears a whole generation have been brainwashed.
The steady-state economy we have pretty much lived in since Reagan was engineered by Republican tools like Greenspan and Bernanke. Low inflation and moderate unemployment and low interest rates is a conservative economy, protecting assets rather than creating jobs.
A progressive capitalist economy is a boom-and-bust economy. The Golden age of worker empowerment 1945-1975 (and the preceding century of labor power organization) or so had a ton of recessions and periods of 5%+ to double-digit inflation. It was great. And not unique to the post-war.
And not zero-sum, but with an underlying global growth trend.
Certainty (anchored expectations), under conditions of rentier (think about it) empowerment, kills hope.
Strong recommendation for this book. It is partly about how institutional racism and imperialism became entrenched in the Anglo West, but also provides economic histories of Melbourne and Capetown to help disillusion any ideas about American exceptionalism. It is also a fun and easy read, with a lot to learn.
Replenishing The Earth
Honestly, it appears a whole generation have been brainwashed.
The steady-state economy we have pretty much lived in since Reagan was engineered by Republican tools like Greenspan and Bernanke. Low inflation and moderate unemployment and low interest rates is a conservative economy, protecting assets rather than creating jobs.
A progressive capitalist economy is a boom-and-bust economy. The Golden age of worker empowerment 1945-1975 (and the preceding century of labor power organization) or so had a ton of recessions and periods of 5%+ to double-digit inflation. It was great. And not unique to the post-war.
And not zero-sum, but with an underlying global growth trend.
Certainty (anchored expectations), under conditions of rentier (think about it) empowerment, kills hope.
Obviously, this is a bit of a sensitive subject with me, given where I am and where I am from, but if we are going to tolerate tossing DACA recipients to the shark, I wonder what else would be tolerated.
I try to give what I can, both with money and volunteer time, and other than trying to get Democrats elected in Virginia, immigrants and refugees get most of that effort. I know some DACA kids, and I am not a fan of the racism and cruelty that ending DACA embraces.
But unless you have a DACA-supporting primary opponent to propose who has a better chance of winning the general election in WV, I think the Dems should stick with Manchin, warts and all.
Yes. Sad, but that’s what’s necessary. Until we get to a better place, instead of just discussing WV voters as the economically anxious “white working class,” we need to call it racism, and try to figure out whether there are ways to address that real problem. Crashing the world economy doesn’t seem like the solution to me.
Obviously, this is a bit of a sensitive subject with me, given where I am and where I am from, but if we are going to tolerate tossing DACA recipients to the shark, I wonder what else would be tolerated.
I try to give what I can, both with money and volunteer time, and other than trying to get Democrats elected in Virginia, immigrants and refugees get most of that effort. I know some DACA kids, and I am not a fan of the racism and cruelty that ending DACA embraces.
But unless you have a DACA-supporting primary opponent to propose who has a better chance of winning the general election in WV, I think the Dems should stick with Manchin, warts and all.
Yes. Sad, but that’s what’s necessary. Until we get to a better place, instead of just discussing WV voters as the economically anxious “white working class,” we need to call it racism, and try to figure out whether there are ways to address that real problem. Crashing the world economy doesn’t seem like the solution to me.
The US government raises money by selling bonds. Bond investors discount the price they’ll pay for bonds by the perceived probability of default. So the higher the probability of default, the higher the interest rate the US has to offer to compensate for it.
Every time US politicians threaten to default, the perceived probability of default goes up. Playing this game costs the US government money in future interest payments.
Apparently Republican politicians are more willing than Democrats to harm their country in order to make a political point. Taking this dangerous toy away from them is therefore in the interests of the Democratic party as well as the American people. Even if you have to talk to Trump to do it.
The US government raises money by selling bonds. Bond investors discount the price they’ll pay for bonds by the perceived probability of default. So the higher the probability of default, the higher the interest rate the US has to offer to compensate for it.
Every time US politicians threaten to default, the perceived probability of default goes up. Playing this game costs the US government money in future interest payments.
Apparently Republican politicians are more willing than Democrats to harm their country in order to make a political point. Taking this dangerous toy away from them is therefore in the interests of the Democratic party as well as the American people. Even if you have to talk to Trump to do it.
It’s odd but the Dems were the ones threatening to shut down the government this time, you couldn’t tell that from the comments here. The Republicans wanted an 18 month extension and the Dems wanted leverage in December. How does that square with any comment above on those mean Republicans willing to destroy the country?
It’s odd but the Dems were the ones threatening to shut down the government this time, you couldn’t tell that from the comments here. The Republicans wanted an 18 month extension and the Dems wanted leverage in December. How does that square with any comment above on those mean Republicans willing to destroy the country?
Before 2008, your favorite economists were throwing around nightmares about the collapse of the dollar and spiking interest rates/inflation. They totally missed the housing bubble, or didn’t care.
After the crash, the Fed couldn’t keep foreign direct investment down, or interest rates and inflation up to trend. They tried (in a way) to print their way to making the dollar weaker, but still haven’t managed.
The US is the sovereign currency hegemon, and the mainstream economists number two job is protecting capital and bond values. The number one job is preventing social unrest.
Don’t listen to the scaremongers.
Before 2008, your favorite economists were throwing around nightmares about the collapse of the dollar and spiking interest rates/inflation. They totally missed the housing bubble, or didn’t care.
After the crash, the Fed couldn’t keep foreign direct investment down, or interest rates and inflation up to trend. They tried (in a way) to print their way to making the dollar weaker, but still haven’t managed.
The US is the sovereign currency hegemon, and the mainstream economists number two job is protecting capital and bond values. The number one job is preventing social unrest.
Don’t listen to the scaremongers.
It’s odd but the Dems were the ones threatening to shut down the government this time, you couldn’t tell that from the comments here.
Cite?
It’s my impression that the Freedom Caucus is still threatening to breach the debt ceiling and some Democrats are refusing to be held hostage. And, Democrats (led by Schumer and Pelosi) are trying to negotiate an end to the debt ceiling. So please be specific.
Thanks.
It’s odd but the Dems were the ones threatening to shut down the government this time, you couldn’t tell that from the comments here.
Cite?
It’s my impression that the Freedom Caucus is still threatening to breach the debt ceiling and some Democrats are refusing to be held hostage. And, Democrats (led by Schumer and Pelosi) are trying to negotiate an end to the debt ceiling. So please be specific.
Thanks.
Crashing the world economy doesn’t seem like the solution to me.
I love the idea, in fact consider it an absolute necessity.
1) Liberal Capitalism kills millions most years, makes billions suffer, and enacts symbolic violence and terror on everybody. Your hands are dripping with blood. It is not a matter of not killing millions, but about which millions. The wrong millions are dying and suffering, by your conscious choice.
2) I am a freaking Marxist. M-L, Mao, Trotsky, whatever.
Class struggle is a very good thing, the more intense and widespread and violent the better.
Intensified class struggle, adding to the internal contradictions of capitalism, will intensify and make more common capitalist crises, including recessions and depressions.
This will eventually, hopefully soon, lead to a workers social revolution, in which millions of capitalists and their tools will die. I look forward to it.
If labour and the left do not take responsibility for and generate social unrest and economic disruption,the fascists will, and they will win.
There is no peace. Up with antifa.
Crashing the world economy doesn’t seem like the solution to me.
I love the idea, in fact consider it an absolute necessity.
1) Liberal Capitalism kills millions most years, makes billions suffer, and enacts symbolic violence and terror on everybody. Your hands are dripping with blood. It is not a matter of not killing millions, but about which millions. The wrong millions are dying and suffering, by your conscious choice.
2) I am a freaking Marxist. M-L, Mao, Trotsky, whatever.
Class struggle is a very good thing, the more intense and widespread and violent the better.
Intensified class struggle, adding to the internal contradictions of capitalism, will intensify and make more common capitalist crises, including recessions and depressions.
This will eventually, hopefully soon, lead to a workers social revolution, in which millions of capitalists and their tools will die. I look forward to it.
If labour and the left do not take responsibility for and generate social unrest and economic disruption,the fascists will, and they will win.
There is no peace. Up with antifa.
2) I am a freaking Marxist. M-L, Mao, Trotsky, whatever.
Yeah, I get that. I’m not.
2) I am a freaking Marxist. M-L, Mao, Trotsky, whatever.
Yeah, I get that. I’m not.
The Reps presented an 18 month extension, then 6, the Dems said no because it takes an issue off the table they think, obviously true based on this blog, is goid for them. The whole”willing to shut down the government” or “default on the debt” argument is bs, it takes two sides to create a stalemate. If either of those things happen both parties decided it was worth getting their way.
The Reps presented an 18 month extension, then 6, the Dems said no because it takes an issue off the table they think, obviously true based on this blog, is goid for them. The whole”willing to shut down the government” or “default on the debt” argument is bs, it takes two sides to create a stalemate. If either of those things happen both parties decided it was worth getting their way.
One of the great technologies of the industrial age, shared simultaneously by capitalism and liberal democracy, is the legal concept of limited liability. Mercury in the river is not the shareholders fault.
Under limited liability, the Democrats can blame Republicans and Republicans can blame Democrats for the black brown and yellow people dying, and the rich getting richer. Of course, alternating in power so as to confuse.
I don’t want to hear it.
One of the great technologies of the industrial age, shared simultaneously by capitalism and liberal democracy, is the legal concept of limited liability. Mercury in the river is not the shareholders fault.
Under limited liability, the Democrats can blame Republicans and Republicans can blame Democrats for the black brown and yellow people dying, and the rich getting richer. Of course, alternating in power so as to confuse.
I don’t want to hear it.
it takes two sides to create a stalemate.
It takes two to have a hostage crisis, the hostage taker and the hostage. Dems don’t want to play that game anymore.
it takes two sides to create a stalemate.
It takes two to have a hostage crisis, the hostage taker and the hostage. Dems don’t want to play that game anymore.
I’m not sure it matters what the timeframe is, at least if it’s not completely silly, like a one-day deal. I wonder if the Democrats even expected to get the 3-month deal, anyway. Trump’s agreeing to it seems to be kind of a surprise to almost everyone, maybe even Trump.
What Marty appears to be ignoring is the Democratic proposal to eliminate the debt ceiling forever.
But the deal they cut provided hurricane relief and kept the government running for another 3 months. And it did that without funding the stupid border wall.
The main reason, aside from whatever the hell got into Trump, that they could get this done is because the Republicans need the Democrats, because there are too many crazies in their own party who want to burn the place down (who are oddly allied with bob mcmanus on that, though I’m sure the freedumb cawkus has very different reasons than does Marxist bob).
I’m not sure it matters what the timeframe is, at least if it’s not completely silly, like a one-day deal. I wonder if the Democrats even expected to get the 3-month deal, anyway. Trump’s agreeing to it seems to be kind of a surprise to almost everyone, maybe even Trump.
What Marty appears to be ignoring is the Democratic proposal to eliminate the debt ceiling forever.
But the deal they cut provided hurricane relief and kept the government running for another 3 months. And it did that without funding the stupid border wall.
The main reason, aside from whatever the hell got into Trump, that they could get this done is because the Republicans need the Democrats, because there are too many crazies in their own party who want to burn the place down (who are oddly allied with bob mcmanus on that, though I’m sure the freedumb cawkus has very different reasons than does Marxist bob).
the more intense and widespread and violent the better.
you get to volunteer other people for violence?
what you have there is a broken ideology.
the more intense and widespread and violent the better.
you get to volunteer other people for violence?
what you have there is a broken ideology.
Marty:
It’s my understanding that the 18-month extension of the debt ceiling, tho suggested by GOP leadership, was not one they could get their own members to pass.
One thing this whole business has made really clear to me: Trump is willing to work with Pelosi & Schumer because they, unlike McConnell & especially Ryan, can actually deliver the votes of their caucus on tricky issues.
Yes, going for a 3-month extension instead of 18-month (which would be after the 2018 elections) is a political calculation. Surprise surprise. The 3-month deadline gives Pelosi & Schumer actual leverage to use on Trump & the GOP, to maybe get a deal where the debt ceiling is automatically raised as needed, the way it was pre-Gingrich (1995).
But Trump would never have come to back the Dems if the GOP in Congress was prepared to function like a governing party. They can’t: they’re acting like a coalition in a parliamentary system, where the “Party Republicans” have to ally with the Freedom Caucus and the Tuesday Group. The Freedom Caucus, in particular, is acting like one of the small hard-right groups Likud has to work with to get its majority, and which end up driving policy on certain topics.
Marty:
It’s my understanding that the 18-month extension of the debt ceiling, tho suggested by GOP leadership, was not one they could get their own members to pass.
One thing this whole business has made really clear to me: Trump is willing to work with Pelosi & Schumer because they, unlike McConnell & especially Ryan, can actually deliver the votes of their caucus on tricky issues.
Yes, going for a 3-month extension instead of 18-month (which would be after the 2018 elections) is a political calculation. Surprise surprise. The 3-month deadline gives Pelosi & Schumer actual leverage to use on Trump & the GOP, to maybe get a deal where the debt ceiling is automatically raised as needed, the way it was pre-Gingrich (1995).
But Trump would never have come to back the Dems if the GOP in Congress was prepared to function like a governing party. They can’t: they’re acting like a coalition in a parliamentary system, where the “Party Republicans” have to ally with the Freedom Caucus and the Tuesday Group. The Freedom Caucus, in particular, is acting like one of the small hard-right groups Likud has to work with to get its majority, and which end up driving policy on certain topics.
So I’m saying the same thing hairshirtthehedonist does, only in a more boring way.
So I’m saying the same thing hairshirtthehedonist does, only in a more boring way.
it takes two sides to create a stalemate.
Marty must have got that from a North Korean news announcer. Marty, you wearing a red or pink joseon-ot?
it takes two sides to create a stalemate.
Marty must have got that from a North Korean news announcer. Marty, you wearing a red or pink joseon-ot?
it takes two sides to create a stalemate.
Well, sort of. But if one side says, “It’s plain common sense that we need to do this,” and the other says, “We won’t agree to do it unless you yield to this list of (stupid) demands,” then it’s hardly a case of equal fault, especially since it’s clear that it is in fact plain common sense.
Ryan laughably accused the Democrats of “playing politics” with the ceiling. Can someone please go Janesville, WI and explain to those voters that this guy is one of the most destructive politicians in the country, and they should pick someone, anyone, else to represent them in Congress?
it takes two sides to create a stalemate.
Well, sort of. But if one side says, “It’s plain common sense that we need to do this,” and the other says, “We won’t agree to do it unless you yield to this list of (stupid) demands,” then it’s hardly a case of equal fault, especially since it’s clear that it is in fact plain common sense.
Ryan laughably accused the Democrats of “playing politics” with the ceiling. Can someone please go Janesville, WI and explain to those voters that this guy is one of the most destructive politicians in the country, and they should pick someone, anyone, else to represent them in Congress?
I don’t give a shit if there are no DACA recipients in WV, if Manchin feels he has to do that to get elected, screw him. Primary his ass.
Well, lj, it’s your party not mine. But imposing that kind of litmus test, in a state (or district, come to that) which isn’t essentially a “safe seat”, is a good way to lose that seat. See the experience of the California Republican Party — descent into irrelevance is all too possible.
In short, what Dave W said.
I don’t give a shit if there are no DACA recipients in WV, if Manchin feels he has to do that to get elected, screw him. Primary his ass.
Well, lj, it’s your party not mine. But imposing that kind of litmus test, in a state (or district, come to that) which isn’t essentially a “safe seat”, is a good way to lose that seat. See the experience of the California Republican Party — descent into irrelevance is all too possible.
In short, what Dave W said.
Marty Bothsides, his nickname among his Mafia associates (there are none, because that was a joke) wants a gal to call his own.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1ldfGFrfqo
We’ve been through 25 years (let’s be charitable) of blackmailing government shutdowns and debt ceiling showdowns instigated and carried out by the republican party, and constant cavalier threats of blackmailing government shutdowns and debt defaults in the intervening periods by the republican party between the actual items, and now suddenly Marty finds it, at best, a tiresome shenanigan.
While I favor getting rid of the debt ceiling because it has been perverted into a malign tool, just like the filibuster, the supreme court nominating process, the no-taxes pledges (for a stalemate on the issue, every Democratic candidate would have had to sign a pledge to accept nothing less than a 100% tax rate on every dollar), and every other traditional tool of governance by the radical wing of the republican party, now its center, I find a Democratic Party/rump alliance vomit-inducing … on any issue.
(As I write this, I see the term “pre-Gingrich” invoked by Doc Science regarding the debt ceiling, and if that is an achievable goal, I’m all ears, depending on what the quid pro quo is. I’m not going to be triangulated clintonesquely.
Especially since now, if this entire thing is not an improvisational kabuki trap on rump’s part (like clapping his hands during a financial huddle with his casino lenders and transactional …. the only “trans” permitted apparently …. dancing girls and platters of transactional caviar blinis suddenly appearing as a diversionary ass kissing tactic), impeachment is surely off the table, making the stealing of elections, by foreign powers or not, an acceptable occurrence in the future of the exceptional United States.
Unlike McManus, I have no Marxist program for the post republican party world, though I am amenable to his views regarding the basic similarities between the establishments in both parties serving the same powerful interests) when it will be dead and made illegal, like the Cosa Nostra, and I have no specific radical preferences for a country run by the Democratic Party, beyond making sure everyone can see a doctor and have shelter and sustenance without kissing expensive ass for it (if that’s radical, then I’m Malcolm X).
I merely want vengeance, and if they want violence in return, come and get it, on the entire lunatic vandalizing conservative movement for their deliberate malign chortling brinksmanship bullshit, domestic and international, these past 40 years.
I want it fucking dead. No breathing Gingrich, pre- or post-.
What comes after (I have no plans to nationalize the shoe industry) is of little matter to me because my job, at this small cubicle near the furnace in the basement of the interblogs) will be done and I’ll gather up my things and be out of your hair.
I’ll throw the carbine back to Pompey and if you need further assistance, send a rider out to my ranch.
Marty Bothsides, his nickname among his Mafia associates (there are none, because that was a joke) wants a gal to call his own.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1ldfGFrfqo
We’ve been through 25 years (let’s be charitable) of blackmailing government shutdowns and debt ceiling showdowns instigated and carried out by the republican party, and constant cavalier threats of blackmailing government shutdowns and debt defaults in the intervening periods by the republican party between the actual items, and now suddenly Marty finds it, at best, a tiresome shenanigan.
While I favor getting rid of the debt ceiling because it has been perverted into a malign tool, just like the filibuster, the supreme court nominating process, the no-taxes pledges (for a stalemate on the issue, every Democratic candidate would have had to sign a pledge to accept nothing less than a 100% tax rate on every dollar), and every other traditional tool of governance by the radical wing of the republican party, now its center, I find a Democratic Party/rump alliance vomit-inducing … on any issue.
(As I write this, I see the term “pre-Gingrich” invoked by Doc Science regarding the debt ceiling, and if that is an achievable goal, I’m all ears, depending on what the quid pro quo is. I’m not going to be triangulated clintonesquely.
Especially since now, if this entire thing is not an improvisational kabuki trap on rump’s part (like clapping his hands during a financial huddle with his casino lenders and transactional …. the only “trans” permitted apparently …. dancing girls and platters of transactional caviar blinis suddenly appearing as a diversionary ass kissing tactic), impeachment is surely off the table, making the stealing of elections, by foreign powers or not, an acceptable occurrence in the future of the exceptional United States.
Unlike McManus, I have no Marxist program for the post republican party world, though I am amenable to his views regarding the basic similarities between the establishments in both parties serving the same powerful interests) when it will be dead and made illegal, like the Cosa Nostra, and I have no specific radical preferences for a country run by the Democratic Party, beyond making sure everyone can see a doctor and have shelter and sustenance without kissing expensive ass for it (if that’s radical, then I’m Malcolm X).
I merely want vengeance, and if they want violence in return, come and get it, on the entire lunatic vandalizing conservative movement for their deliberate malign chortling brinksmanship bullshit, domestic and international, these past 40 years.
I want it fucking dead. No breathing Gingrich, pre- or post-.
What comes after (I have no plans to nationalize the shoe industry) is of little matter to me because my job, at this small cubicle near the furnace in the basement of the interblogs) will be done and I’ll gather up my things and be out of your hair.
I’ll throw the carbine back to Pompey and if you need further assistance, send a rider out to my ranch.
I am a freaking Marxist. M-L, Mao, Trotsky, whatever.
Class struggle is a very good thing, the more intense and widespread and violent the better.
Just out of curiosity, has there ever been an occasion, anywhere in the world, where this was tried and provided anything but a disaster for the working man? Every time I am aware of, it either just provided a new and different elite (along with lots of bloodshed — mostly working men’s blood; for all the number of the old elite who died as well) as in the USSR, etc. Or just bloodshed without the new elite (Cambodia).
Got anything, bigger than a village, where it has worked?
I am a freaking Marxist. M-L, Mao, Trotsky, whatever.
Class struggle is a very good thing, the more intense and widespread and violent the better.
Just out of curiosity, has there ever been an occasion, anywhere in the world, where this was tried and provided anything but a disaster for the working man? Every time I am aware of, it either just provided a new and different elite (along with lots of bloodshed — mostly working men’s blood; for all the number of the old elite who died as well) as in the USSR, etc. Or just bloodshed without the new elite (Cambodia).
Got anything, bigger than a village, where it has worked?
It’s odd but the Dems were the ones threatening to shut down the government this time, you couldn’t tell that from the comments here.
Of course, it’s also the Dems who are working with Trump to get rid of the debt ceiling altogether….
It’s odd but the Dems were the ones threatening to shut down the government this time, you couldn’t tell that from the comments here.
Of course, it’s also the Dems who are working with Trump to get rid of the debt ceiling altogether….
there are too many crazies in their own party who want to burn the place down (who are oddly allied with bob mcmanus on that, though I’m sure the freedumb cawkus has very different reasons than does Marxist bob).
Actually, I think their reasons are virtually identical. Both groups think (based on zero actual evidence) that if they burn the place down, they will somehow end up untouched and in charge. A rare burst of optimism from two groups which otherwise are sure that the world is going to hell in a handbasket.
there are too many crazies in their own party who want to burn the place down (who are oddly allied with bob mcmanus on that, though I’m sure the freedumb cawkus has very different reasons than does Marxist bob).
Actually, I think their reasons are virtually identical. Both groups think (based on zero actual evidence) that if they burn the place down, they will somehow end up untouched and in charge. A rare burst of optimism from two groups which otherwise are sure that the world is going to hell in a handbasket.
What comes after (I have no plans to nationalize the shoe industry)…
Wait. Isn’t that part of friends on the left re-tooling the entire economy? I apparently did not get the half-measures memo!
What comes after (I have no plans to nationalize the shoe industry)…
Wait. Isn’t that part of friends on the left re-tooling the entire economy? I apparently did not get the half-measures memo!
One shoe at a time.
One shoe at a time.
Got anything, bigger than a village, where it has worked?
Thank you, wj!
This is exactly the question I’ve been asking the BernieBros and Steiniacs on FB. “When has this ever worked? When?? Where??”
The only responses I get are repetitions of the “Dems Just as Bad, Burn It All Down!” bleats.
From which I conclude that the extreme left is just as nihilistic as the extreme right. They don’t actually care about whether something “works” – they just want to destroy stuff.
Got anything, bigger than a village, where it has worked?
Thank you, wj!
This is exactly the question I’ve been asking the BernieBros and Steiniacs on FB. “When has this ever worked? When?? Where??”
The only responses I get are repetitions of the “Dems Just as Bad, Burn It All Down!” bleats.
From which I conclude that the extreme left is just as nihilistic as the extreme right. They don’t actually care about whether something “works” – they just want to destroy stuff.
Actually, I think their reasons are virtually identical. Both groups think (based on zero actual evidence) that if they burn the place down, they will somehow end up untouched and in charge.
Pronoun trouble – different “they”s. It’s like saying Eagles fans and Cowboys fans want the same outcome – their team to win!
That, and I don’t think mcmanus wants to be (or wants his people to be) “in charge” in the sort of sense the freedumb cawkus would have in mind. Marxism doesn’t work that way.
Actually, I think their reasons are virtually identical. Both groups think (based on zero actual evidence) that if they burn the place down, they will somehow end up untouched and in charge.
Pronoun trouble – different “they”s. It’s like saying Eagles fans and Cowboys fans want the same outcome – their team to win!
That, and I don’t think mcmanus wants to be (or wants his people to be) “in charge” in the sort of sense the freedumb cawkus would have in mind. Marxism doesn’t work that way.
It’s odd but the Dems were the ones threatening to shut down the government this time, you couldn’t tell that from the comments here.
Bull. The GOP has a majority in the House the Senate. They hold the presidency. They can pass a resolution to raise the debt limit any damnned time they please.
But they can’t. They need Dem votes to do so.
But it’s all the Dems fault.
Sure. You bet’cha.
It’s odd but the Dems were the ones threatening to shut down the government this time, you couldn’t tell that from the comments here.
Bull. The GOP has a majority in the House the Senate. They hold the presidency. They can pass a resolution to raise the debt limit any damnned time they please.
But they can’t. They need Dem votes to do so.
But it’s all the Dems fault.
Sure. You bet’cha.
hsh, I was thinking of “in charge” in the sense of “things are run the way *I* think they should be.” Whether that involves command and control or not.
hsh, I was thinking of “in charge” in the sense of “things are run the way *I* think they should be.” Whether that involves command and control or not.
“When has this ever worked? When?? Where??”
Casey, I suppose we should note that this isn’t an argument for no change at all. Trying new things is definitely a good idea. It’s just an argument for gradual, incremental change rather than a massive revolutionary change to everything….
“When has this ever worked? When?? Where??”
Casey, I suppose we should note that this isn’t an argument for no change at all. Trying new things is definitely a good idea. It’s just an argument for gradual, incremental change rather than a massive revolutionary change to everything….
But Trump would never have come to back the Dems if the GOP in Congress was prepared to function like a governing party.
Yep. Exactly. Why if the shoe was on the other foot, the Dems would pass the debt limit increase without a second thought. Why even lickspittle Joe Manchin would go along.
Unlike what we observe with the GOP, there is no left wing “heighten the contradictions” faction of Democratic Congresscritters willing to burn it all down to impose their ideological whimsies.
But Trump would never have come to back the Dems if the GOP in Congress was prepared to function like a governing party.
Yep. Exactly. Why if the shoe was on the other foot, the Dems would pass the debt limit increase without a second thought. Why even lickspittle Joe Manchin would go along.
Unlike what we observe with the GOP, there is no left wing “heighten the contradictions” faction of Democratic Congresscritters willing to burn it all down to impose their ideological whimsies.
Rush Limbaugh’s studio fills up with hoax-like seawater.
He follows the rats overboard, grabbing his conspiratorial bottled water on the way, and heads for higher ground, meaning the luxury penthouse atop his ego.
http://juanitajean.com/rush/
Ah, to see Gingrich and Limbaugh floating face down at full tide among the sea wrack.
Rush Limbaugh’s studio fills up with hoax-like seawater.
He follows the rats overboard, grabbing his conspiratorial bottled water on the way, and heads for higher ground, meaning the luxury penthouse atop his ego.
http://juanitajean.com/rush/
Ah, to see Gingrich and Limbaugh floating face down at full tide among the sea wrack.
“When has this ever worked? When?? Where??”
This is not a fair question. A lot of folks died needlessly to attain our western standard of living. Do you want a list?
Stalin, murderous asshole psychopath that he was, raised the Russian standard of living significantly. You can certainly (and I would agree reasonably) argue that the price was too high, but tell that to some schlub working in a factory in Leningrad in 1965 who had a lot more in the way of wealth and social services than his czarist peasant forbearers.
When bob says there is blood on our hands, he is essentially correct.
We just tend to turn a blind eye to it.
“When has this ever worked? When?? Where??”
This is not a fair question. A lot of folks died needlessly to attain our western standard of living. Do you want a list?
Stalin, murderous asshole psychopath that he was, raised the Russian standard of living significantly. You can certainly (and I would agree reasonably) argue that the price was too high, but tell that to some schlub working in a factory in Leningrad in 1965 who had a lot more in the way of wealth and social services than his czarist peasant forbearers.
When bob says there is blood on our hands, he is essentially correct.
We just tend to turn a blind eye to it.
Stalin, murderous asshole psychopath that he was, raised the Russian standard of living significantly.
Easier to raise the average income when you murder millions of inconvenient peasants.
Stalin, murderous asshole psychopath that he was, raised the Russian standard of living significantly.
Easier to raise the average income when you murder millions of inconvenient peasants.
A lot of folks died needlessly to attain our western standard of living.
…
When bob says there is blood on our hands, he is essentially correct.
and yet bob is right up there calling for more blood to be spilled for his ideology.
A lot of folks died needlessly to attain our western standard of living.
…
When bob says there is blood on our hands, he is essentially correct.
and yet bob is right up there calling for more blood to be spilled for his ideology.
But Trump would never have come to back the Dems if the GOP in Congress was prepared to function like a governing party.
The stupid and irresponsible party controls how much gov’t at every level?
To my fans above about the most recent series, I had to levee an apparent stormsurge in unwanted credibility.
I can’t predict if or how Democratic rank and file will regret this most recent DC group hug: if, because God knows October 2008 is getting misremembered, rewritten, and misanalyzed; and how, because I can’ be sure how* Republicans will abuse this opportunity, because frankly, Republicans are smarter than I am, as measured by their dominance.
Democrats are stupider or more corrupt than I can ever imagine, and there is a motivating enlightenment in being constantly disappointed beyond expectations.
*Brad DeLong has consistently bemoaned that Democrats raise taxes and moderate spending to decrease deficits followed by Republicans cutting taxes and increasing spending. This pattern was upheld by Obama.
FDR after PH increased taxes to 90 to cover the war expenses. Bush II cut taxes on the invasion of Iraq.
I expect this to be repeated in the current, and next few administrations.
But Trump would never have come to back the Dems if the GOP in Congress was prepared to function like a governing party.
The stupid and irresponsible party controls how much gov’t at every level?
To my fans above about the most recent series, I had to levee an apparent stormsurge in unwanted credibility.
I can’t predict if or how Democratic rank and file will regret this most recent DC group hug: if, because God knows October 2008 is getting misremembered, rewritten, and misanalyzed; and how, because I can’ be sure how* Republicans will abuse this opportunity, because frankly, Republicans are smarter than I am, as measured by their dominance.
Democrats are stupider or more corrupt than I can ever imagine, and there is a motivating enlightenment in being constantly disappointed beyond expectations.
*Brad DeLong has consistently bemoaned that Democrats raise taxes and moderate spending to decrease deficits followed by Republicans cutting taxes and increasing spending. This pattern was upheld by Obama.
FDR after PH increased taxes to 90 to cover the war expenses. Bush II cut taxes on the invasion of Iraq.
I expect this to be repeated in the current, and next few administrations.
Re: the debt limit, etc.
All too many people, including those who really should know better base their opinions about debt, government budgets, and the economy on the idea that “money” is “a finite pile of shiny metal”.
It’s not. Hasn’t been for most of a century.
In 1840, a country that couldn’t come up with the “pile of shiny metal” to pay their debts was in a really tough bind. In 2017, it’s just bits on a computer.
Yes, I would like to see the US debt limit abolished. But I wouldn’t mind it being used as a cudgel on some GOPers first. A cudgel that they can make disappear anytime they want, but it requires pulling heads out of fundaments, and that’s unpossible.
Re: the debt limit, etc.
All too many people, including those who really should know better base their opinions about debt, government budgets, and the economy on the idea that “money” is “a finite pile of shiny metal”.
It’s not. Hasn’t been for most of a century.
In 1840, a country that couldn’t come up with the “pile of shiny metal” to pay their debts was in a really tough bind. In 2017, it’s just bits on a computer.
Yes, I would like to see the US debt limit abolished. But I wouldn’t mind it being used as a cudgel on some GOPers first. A cudgel that they can make disappear anytime they want, but it requires pulling heads out of fundaments, and that’s unpossible.
Unfortunately, to the say least, when the chickens come home to roost, they break the very eggs they were trying to hatch, along with the Faberge eggs they confiscated to trade for chickenfeed for the chicks.
Someone call the metaphor translators.
But, you know, when income disparities are what they are, and are made to in-your-face persist and widen by the top recipients and their tools, anger and hate get the best of us.
You don’t like envy? Stop being so preeningly enviable.
Let them eat cake, unless it ruffles your religious sensibilities to let them eat cake?
Eat this.
We could have been peaceably eating at the common table long ago, but somehow food and healthcare and shelter got confused with rewards and incentives.
Perverts.
Unfortunately, to the say least, when the chickens come home to roost, they break the very eggs they were trying to hatch, along with the Faberge eggs they confiscated to trade for chickenfeed for the chicks.
Someone call the metaphor translators.
But, you know, when income disparities are what they are, and are made to in-your-face persist and widen by the top recipients and their tools, anger and hate get the best of us.
You don’t like envy? Stop being so preeningly enviable.
Let them eat cake, unless it ruffles your religious sensibilities to let them eat cake?
Eat this.
We could have been peaceably eating at the common table long ago, but somehow food and healthcare and shelter got confused with rewards and incentives.
Perverts.
“things are run the way *I* think they should be.”
Then you agree that bob and the freedumb cawkus want almost exactly opposite things to arise from the ashes, unless you think the freedumb cawkus want labor to unite and rise up to wrest economic control from the capitalists.
“things are run the way *I* think they should be.”
Then you agree that bob and the freedumb cawkus want almost exactly opposite things to arise from the ashes, unless you think the freedumb cawkus want labor to unite and rise up to wrest economic control from the capitalists.
Speaking of perverts and Gingrich:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/gingrich-or-santorum-as-speaker-house-conservatives-plot-mischief-for-the-fall/2017/09/07/8df6ab60-9316-11e7-aace-04b862b2b3f3_story.html?utm_term=.cb1f2cc94ed3
via Hullabaloo.
rump is further radicalizing the radical dumbshit caucus. He wants nigger healthcare (thank you, Coates) gone and this latest is merely a ploy to get there, along with the rest of the radical agenda.
rump is not demented in the medical sense. He’s stupid like my grandmother was deaf but could recite conversations she overheard from three rooms away.
He’s demented like Ted Bundy squeezing through a prison ceiling vent and immediately removing the passenger seat in the next car to resume his perversion.
Nancy Pelosi is merely a momentarily convenient Lauren Bacall to rump’s Johnny Rocco, because he’s pissed off at John McCain’s Humphrey Bogart for snatching the death of nigger healthcare and now nigger deportation from his clutches.
The House Freedom Caucus is Stalin.
Feet first is how they will leave the scene.
It’s the only way.
Speaking of perverts and Gingrich:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/gingrich-or-santorum-as-speaker-house-conservatives-plot-mischief-for-the-fall/2017/09/07/8df6ab60-9316-11e7-aace-04b862b2b3f3_story.html?utm_term=.cb1f2cc94ed3
via Hullabaloo.
rump is further radicalizing the radical dumbshit caucus. He wants nigger healthcare (thank you, Coates) gone and this latest is merely a ploy to get there, along with the rest of the radical agenda.
rump is not demented in the medical sense. He’s stupid like my grandmother was deaf but could recite conversations she overheard from three rooms away.
He’s demented like Ted Bundy squeezing through a prison ceiling vent and immediately removing the passenger seat in the next car to resume his perversion.
Nancy Pelosi is merely a momentarily convenient Lauren Bacall to rump’s Johnny Rocco, because he’s pissed off at John McCain’s Humphrey Bogart for snatching the death of nigger healthcare and now nigger deportation from his clutches.
The House Freedom Caucus is Stalin.
Feet first is how they will leave the scene.
It’s the only way.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/scott-pruitt-climate-change-insensitive-floridians
Said the wolf to the little pigs as he blew their house down.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/scott-pruitt-climate-change-insensitive-floridians
Said the wolf to the little pigs as he blew their house down.
“Of course, it’s also the Dems who are working with Trump to get rid of the debt ceiling altogether….”
Which is the stupidest thing I have ever heard, second to 100% Medicaid coverage from the feds but managed by the state. Let’s remove all accountability from government thinking. The Dems are perfectly willing to get rid of any limits on what they spend.
“Of course, it’s also the Dems who are working with Trump to get rid of the debt ceiling altogether….”
Which is the stupidest thing I have ever heard, second to 100% Medicaid coverage from the feds but managed by the state. Let’s remove all accountability from government thinking. The Dems are perfectly willing to get rid of any limits on what they spend.
The debt ceiling isn’t a limit on spending, that’s what the budget is for. It’s an opportunity for politicians to stamp their feet.
The debt ceiling isn’t a limit on spending, that’s what the budget is for. It’s an opportunity for politicians to stamp their feet.
The Dems are perfectly willing to get rid of any limits on what they spend.
This makes me laugh.
The Dems are perfectly willing to get rid of any limits on what they spend.
This makes me laugh.
Still laughing.
Still laughing.
“Which is the stupidest thing I have ever heard”
So much stupid unheard then.
“Which is the stupidest thing I have ever heard”
So much stupid unheard then.
“When has this ever worked? When?? Where??”
This is not a fair question. A lot of folks died needlessly to attain our western standard of living. Do you want a list?
Yes, actually, I would like a list. No question a lot of people died. But the “needlessly” part — looking just at economics, not other kinds of violence (e.g. political) and without benefit of 20/20 hindsight? That would be of interest.
Let me introduce a small reality check. Not because I expect to convince you**, but because I have a tendency to tilt at windmills.
Lots of people die during industrialization. But compared to the alternative? Do you know why developing economies (including our own, when it was developing) have sweatshops? Mostly it’s because lots of people are willing, even eager, to work in them. The alternative, subsistence agriculture, is worse.
Worse in standard of living, worse in effort required, worse in health and longevity. That’s why Thai peasants voluntarily move to cities and work in sweatshops: the alternative is worse. (If you haven’t spent time in places where subsistence agriculture happens, chances are minimal that you realize just how bad it is. It’s grim.)
Do owners (“capitalists” if you prefer) benefit from sweatshops? Sure. Do they prefer running sweatshops? Absolutely not. The profit margins are lower in sweatshops than in more advanced factories. That’s why Chinese sweatshops are on the way out: there’s more money to be made elsewhere, once your workforce actually has some skills and can do the higher skill jobs.
How does that square with our current situation? Owners, like everybody else, are both risk averse and not exceptionally bright. (Sorry top 5%, but it’s true.) So when you are talking about new technology, that is something that hasn’t been proven out elsewhere, they mostly can’t see how it would work out and so would rather stick with the tried and true. So they take other approaches to getting richer (e.g. tax law features).
But the minority who have the vision, and are willing to take a risk, can get super-rich. (Gates, Musk, need I go on?) Not only are they the ones who make progress happen, they generally pay better than the old guard. Not so much because they can (although that does come into it), but because workers are risk-averse also, and you have to pay them more to work in your novelty shop.
Given time, the old way can’t compete and changes. But if you want to make it happen faster, the way you do that is to put your effort into politics. Elect people who will change the tax laws to something fairer. Which means educating voters. It’s not as exciting as having a revolution. But it kills a lot fewer people. And has the added benefit of being far more likely to actually work.
** In my experience, convinced Marxists are about as amenable to reality as any other religious fundamentalist or any Tea Partyer.
“When has this ever worked? When?? Where??”
This is not a fair question. A lot of folks died needlessly to attain our western standard of living. Do you want a list?
Yes, actually, I would like a list. No question a lot of people died. But the “needlessly” part — looking just at economics, not other kinds of violence (e.g. political) and without benefit of 20/20 hindsight? That would be of interest.
Let me introduce a small reality check. Not because I expect to convince you**, but because I have a tendency to tilt at windmills.
Lots of people die during industrialization. But compared to the alternative? Do you know why developing economies (including our own, when it was developing) have sweatshops? Mostly it’s because lots of people are willing, even eager, to work in them. The alternative, subsistence agriculture, is worse.
Worse in standard of living, worse in effort required, worse in health and longevity. That’s why Thai peasants voluntarily move to cities and work in sweatshops: the alternative is worse. (If you haven’t spent time in places where subsistence agriculture happens, chances are minimal that you realize just how bad it is. It’s grim.)
Do owners (“capitalists” if you prefer) benefit from sweatshops? Sure. Do they prefer running sweatshops? Absolutely not. The profit margins are lower in sweatshops than in more advanced factories. That’s why Chinese sweatshops are on the way out: there’s more money to be made elsewhere, once your workforce actually has some skills and can do the higher skill jobs.
How does that square with our current situation? Owners, like everybody else, are both risk averse and not exceptionally bright. (Sorry top 5%, but it’s true.) So when you are talking about new technology, that is something that hasn’t been proven out elsewhere, they mostly can’t see how it would work out and so would rather stick with the tried and true. So they take other approaches to getting richer (e.g. tax law features).
But the minority who have the vision, and are willing to take a risk, can get super-rich. (Gates, Musk, need I go on?) Not only are they the ones who make progress happen, they generally pay better than the old guard. Not so much because they can (although that does come into it), but because workers are risk-averse also, and you have to pay them more to work in your novelty shop.
Given time, the old way can’t compete and changes. But if you want to make it happen faster, the way you do that is to put your effort into politics. Elect people who will change the tax laws to something fairer. Which means educating voters. It’s not as exciting as having a revolution. But it kills a lot fewer people. And has the added benefit of being far more likely to actually work.
** In my experience, convinced Marxists are about as amenable to reality as any other religious fundamentalist or any Tea Partyer.
Stalin’s name gets mentioned again in the service of absurd comparisons. Leave it to Dreher.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/fruits-same-sex-marriage-australia-uk/
Stalin would have disappeared Lacticia too.
Stalin’s name gets mentioned again in the service of absurd comparisons. Leave it to Dreher.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/fruits-same-sex-marriage-australia-uk/
Stalin would have disappeared Lacticia too.
I merely misspell her name: Lactitia.
That is one precocious 8-year-old.
I merely misspell her name: Lactitia.
That is one precocious 8-year-old.
Thanks, wj, for that 1:47.
I’m not sure how the workers’ revolution would even be organized anymore. The Marxism that bob mcmanus spouts (to the extent that it has any meaning at all) is a relic of 19th and early 20th century economic theory, and we live in a world where the term “worker” itself really needs to be redefined.
I have some complaints about our economic system. I’m in favor of the “death tax”. (Yes! Dead people should pay taxes!). Higher taxes on capital gains (with the exception of retirement income, perhaps). Larger payroll tax burden for higher income workers. Improving our universal health care initiative. Stronger compensation for workers who lose their jobs because of trade agreements.
These things are difficult to accomplish, but way easier than murdering rich people, and starving and relocating peasants. (Wait a minute – peasants? See, our words aren’t even the same – don’t we mean the rural poor?) Anyway, bob mcmanus’s nonsense is ugly, but mainly obsolete.
Thanks, wj, for that 1:47.
I’m not sure how the workers’ revolution would even be organized anymore. The Marxism that bob mcmanus spouts (to the extent that it has any meaning at all) is a relic of 19th and early 20th century economic theory, and we live in a world where the term “worker” itself really needs to be redefined.
I have some complaints about our economic system. I’m in favor of the “death tax”. (Yes! Dead people should pay taxes!). Higher taxes on capital gains (with the exception of retirement income, perhaps). Larger payroll tax burden for higher income workers. Improving our universal health care initiative. Stronger compensation for workers who lose their jobs because of trade agreements.
These things are difficult to accomplish, but way easier than murdering rich people, and starving and relocating peasants. (Wait a minute – peasants? See, our words aren’t even the same – don’t we mean the rural poor?) Anyway, bob mcmanus’s nonsense is ugly, but mainly obsolete.
“Lots of people die during industrialization. But compared to the alternative? Do you know why developing economies (including our own, when it was developing) have sweatshops? Mostly it’s because lots of people are willing, even eager, to work in them. The alternative, subsistence agriculture, is worse.”
I agree with this.
What I don’t agree with is treating these eager sick-of-subsistence-agriculture beavers like we’ve-got-them-right-where-we-want-them chattel and instead skipping the sweat part of the sweatshop once and for all and installing air conditioning, among other basic human amenities.
Desperate numbskulls are decent chickens too, not mere fucking overhead.
“Lots of people die during industrialization. But compared to the alternative? Do you know why developing economies (including our own, when it was developing) have sweatshops? Mostly it’s because lots of people are willing, even eager, to work in them. The alternative, subsistence agriculture, is worse.”
I agree with this.
What I don’t agree with is treating these eager sick-of-subsistence-agriculture beavers like we’ve-got-them-right-where-we-want-them chattel and instead skipping the sweat part of the sweatshop once and for all and installing air conditioning, among other basic human amenities.
Desperate numbskulls are decent chickens too, not mere fucking overhead.
Marty:
You are making PRECISELY the mistake I suspect many GOP electeds are making.
Despite the name, the “debt ceiling” isn’t a limit on how much debt the US government can get into. It’s a limit on how much of the bills WE HAVE ALREADY RUN UP can be payed off.
You’re confusing “we shouldn’t run up more debt on our credit card” with “we shouldn’t pay the credit card debt we already owe”.
The fact that you keep making this mistake even just in this conversation suggests to me that GOP House members, who aren’t necessarily any smarter, less tired, or less distracted than you are, are probably making this mistake, too. And I assume you’re ALL making this mistake — along with many other people — because the name is confusing, and people on TV, radio, & the internet aren’t constantly, constantly reminding people that it doesn’t mean what it sounds like.
Marty:
You are making PRECISELY the mistake I suspect many GOP electeds are making.
Despite the name, the “debt ceiling” isn’t a limit on how much debt the US government can get into. It’s a limit on how much of the bills WE HAVE ALREADY RUN UP can be payed off.
You’re confusing “we shouldn’t run up more debt on our credit card” with “we shouldn’t pay the credit card debt we already owe”.
The fact that you keep making this mistake even just in this conversation suggests to me that GOP House members, who aren’t necessarily any smarter, less tired, or less distracted than you are, are probably making this mistake, too. And I assume you’re ALL making this mistake — along with many other people — because the name is confusing, and people on TV, radio, & the internet aren’t constantly, constantly reminding people that it doesn’t mean what it sounds like.
This is not a fair question. A lot of folks died needlessly to attain our western standard of living. Do you want a list?
SFAICT, you want to compress 100 years worth of change into a Five Year Plan, starting with burning down the existing order and with little to no specific ideas about what happens afterward. SFAICT, you believe a dictatorship of the proletariat will somehow, spontaneously, arise from the ashes.
As I understand it, Marx’s dialectic held that society had evolve through all the intermediate forms of change – from feudalism to mercantilism, from mercantilism to capitalism – before it could evolve from capitalism to socialism, and then from socialism to communism.
Lenin, Stalin and Mao thought they could do hurry-up versions of that dialectic evolution, with their Five Year Plans and Cultural Revolutions and Let a Thousand Flowers Blooms. I don’t recall that those programs worked out so well, IF the goal was actually to get to the Workers Paradise (as opposed to simply eliminating ideological enemies, dissidents, and any other inconvenient persons).
People are not “naturally” socialistic, any more than they are “naturally” socialized. People aren’t “naturally” much of anything, socially speaking.
Batter them with recurrent traumas, upset what little stability they’ve managed to make for themselves, ensure that every day in every way they have to rethink every task that used to be ordinary and mundane… and you will not get a Workers Paradise. Those tactics do not work, have never worked, and will never work, to create a more perfect union.
This is not a fair question. A lot of folks died needlessly to attain our western standard of living. Do you want a list?
SFAICT, you want to compress 100 years worth of change into a Five Year Plan, starting with burning down the existing order and with little to no specific ideas about what happens afterward. SFAICT, you believe a dictatorship of the proletariat will somehow, spontaneously, arise from the ashes.
As I understand it, Marx’s dialectic held that society had evolve through all the intermediate forms of change – from feudalism to mercantilism, from mercantilism to capitalism – before it could evolve from capitalism to socialism, and then from socialism to communism.
Lenin, Stalin and Mao thought they could do hurry-up versions of that dialectic evolution, with their Five Year Plans and Cultural Revolutions and Let a Thousand Flowers Blooms. I don’t recall that those programs worked out so well, IF the goal was actually to get to the Workers Paradise (as opposed to simply eliminating ideological enemies, dissidents, and any other inconvenient persons).
People are not “naturally” socialistic, any more than they are “naturally” socialized. People aren’t “naturally” much of anything, socially speaking.
Batter them with recurrent traumas, upset what little stability they’ve managed to make for themselves, ensure that every day in every way they have to rethink every task that used to be ordinary and mundane… and you will not get a Workers Paradise. Those tactics do not work, have never worked, and will never work, to create a more perfect union.
What I don’t agree with is treating these eager sick-of-subsistence-agriculture beavers like we’ve-got-them-right-where-we-want-them chattel and instead skipping the sweat part of the sweatshop once and for all and installing air conditioning, among other basic human amenities.
This is true too. Fair labor provisions in trade agreements are part of the to do list, for sure.
What I don’t agree with is treating these eager sick-of-subsistence-agriculture beavers like we’ve-got-them-right-where-we-want-them chattel and instead skipping the sweat part of the sweatshop once and for all and installing air conditioning, among other basic human amenities.
This is true too. Fair labor provisions in trade agreements are part of the to do list, for sure.
What I don’t agree with is treating these eager sick-of-subsistence-agriculture beavers like we’ve-got-them-right-where-we-want-them chattel and instead skipping the sweat part of the sweatshop once and for all and installing air conditioning, among other basic human amenities.
Count, there’s only so much money coming out of a sweatshop. And AC is, regrettably, expensive.
If you want to minimize (because you cannot eliminate) the sweatshop phase, you need to pour resources into education and training. Make those workers able to work in a non-sweat shop, and it will happen. Not sexy; not instantaneous. But effective.
What I don’t agree with is treating these eager sick-of-subsistence-agriculture beavers like we’ve-got-them-right-where-we-want-them chattel and instead skipping the sweat part of the sweatshop once and for all and installing air conditioning, among other basic human amenities.
Count, there’s only so much money coming out of a sweatshop. And AC is, regrettably, expensive.
If you want to minimize (because you cannot eliminate) the sweatshop phase, you need to pour resources into education and training. Make those workers able to work in a non-sweat shop, and it will happen. Not sexy; not instantaneous. But effective.
Fair labor provisions in trade agreements are part of the to do list, for sure.
Let’s say we do that. What happens? Well, if you say you will only allow trade from places that pay “fair” (defined how?) wages, and they cannot make a profit doing that with the workers they have available, then those factories won’t exist.
Since the workers aren’t able to do more skilled and valuable work (else the owners would have gone there already), that means they are stuck back at subsistence agriculture. Without a path out . . . at least until your charitable foundation spends the money to get them trained up — necessarily, given the time subsistence agriculture requires, with providing food for them the whole time as well.
But if you are willing to do that anyway, why not do it without the “fair” pay provision? Just do it.
Fair labor provisions in trade agreements are part of the to do list, for sure.
Let’s say we do that. What happens? Well, if you say you will only allow trade from places that pay “fair” (defined how?) wages, and they cannot make a profit doing that with the workers they have available, then those factories won’t exist.
Since the workers aren’t able to do more skilled and valuable work (else the owners would have gone there already), that means they are stuck back at subsistence agriculture. Without a path out . . . at least until your charitable foundation spends the money to get them trained up — necessarily, given the time subsistence agriculture requires, with providing food for them the whole time as well.
But if you are willing to do that anyway, why not do it without the “fair” pay provision? Just do it.
Let a Thousand Flowers Bloom.
In five years? Only a thousand?
What kind of quota is that?
I fear the Groucho Marxists among us:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/trump-lawyer-wife-arrested-alleged-sex-inmate-article-1.3478274
I cribbed that from cleek’s joint.
I’m pretty sure conservatives are rushing to have sex with as many Dreamers as possible before they kick them out of the country for good, since they can’t have sex with confederate statues.
I mean they can, but charm meets immovable object and all that.
Let a Thousand Flowers Bloom.
In five years? Only a thousand?
What kind of quota is that?
I fear the Groucho Marxists among us:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/trump-lawyer-wife-arrested-alleged-sex-inmate-article-1.3478274
I cribbed that from cleek’s joint.
I’m pretty sure conservatives are rushing to have sex with as many Dreamers as possible before they kick them out of the country for good, since they can’t have sex with confederate statues.
I mean they can, but charm meets immovable object and all that.
speaking of my joint…
there’s a new Name That Tune up there. if you fancy yourself good with the tunes, you’re encouraged to prove it. 🙂
speaking of my joint…
there’s a new Name That Tune up there. if you fancy yourself good with the tunes, you’re encouraged to prove it. 🙂
and they cannot make a profit doing that with the workers they have available, then those factories won’t exist.
Fair doesn’t mean US standard of living, but it does mean humane treatment and reasonable safety measures. Many times better working conditions (read about the garment industry in Vietnam) increase profits. These measures are usually phased in. Capitalism doesn’t have to be maximally rapacious in order to be profitable.
and they cannot make a profit doing that with the workers they have available, then those factories won’t exist.
Fair doesn’t mean US standard of living, but it does mean humane treatment and reasonable safety measures. Many times better working conditions (read about the garment industry in Vietnam) increase profits. These measures are usually phased in. Capitalism doesn’t have to be maximally rapacious in order to be profitable.
It’s not. Hasn’t been for most of a century.
Yup. Issuing government bonds to “get money” is not necessary either.
It’s not. Hasn’t been for most of a century.
Yup. Issuing government bonds to “get money” is not necessary either.
I know the tunes, more or less, but I forget the names of them.
wj: “Not sexy; not instantaneous. But effective.”
Well, if it’s not sexy, then never mind.
“Let’s say we do that. What happens? Well, if you say you will only allow trade from places that pay “fair” (defined how?) wages, and they cannot make a profit doing that with the workers they have available, then those factories won’t exist.”
Well then, clearly, we must dis-employ everyone left in West Virginia and Ohio, get them addicted to Oxycontin, and ship those jobs overseas, where air conditioning is too expensive under the profit-motive model (like weather models, it is not 100% foolproof, which is why fools rush in) and they can re-elect Donald rump in 2020.
It’s amazing that the there are so many “sorry-we-can’t-do-thats” in the profit-model world, where people who claim Yes-we-can-do-that-don’t-you-say-we-can’t-do-that live.
That’s OK, the profit part of profit motive has escaped me somehow.
I’ve lived in the third world so I know the stoop labor involved in subsistence agriculture.
Everyone sweats, unless you are on an air conditioned bus in upscale Makati.
I know the tunes, more or less, but I forget the names of them.
wj: “Not sexy; not instantaneous. But effective.”
Well, if it’s not sexy, then never mind.
“Let’s say we do that. What happens? Well, if you say you will only allow trade from places that pay “fair” (defined how?) wages, and they cannot make a profit doing that with the workers they have available, then those factories won’t exist.”
Well then, clearly, we must dis-employ everyone left in West Virginia and Ohio, get them addicted to Oxycontin, and ship those jobs overseas, where air conditioning is too expensive under the profit-motive model (like weather models, it is not 100% foolproof, which is why fools rush in) and they can re-elect Donald rump in 2020.
It’s amazing that the there are so many “sorry-we-can’t-do-thats” in the profit-model world, where people who claim Yes-we-can-do-that-don’t-you-say-we-can’t-do-that live.
That’s OK, the profit part of profit motive has escaped me somehow.
I’ve lived in the third world so I know the stoop labor involved in subsistence agriculture.
Everyone sweats, unless you are on an air conditioned bus in upscale Makati.
there’s a new Name That Tune up there. if you fancy yourself good with the tunes, you’re encouraged to prove it. 🙂
Done!
there’s a new Name That Tune up there. if you fancy yourself good with the tunes, you’re encouraged to prove it. 🙂
Done!
Hey, Hey, wj, how many peasants did you kill today? Heh. Sorry. Just kidding.
Thanks for the reply. Really. And yes, I’ve been in some places in eastern Africa that I’d just as soon forget, thank you very much for that lecture.
Industrialization is a process of harnessing carbon, technology, and human effort to accumulate a social surplus to build the platform for raising standards of living in the future.(Marxism!!! ayeiiii!)
I don’t see a whole lot of difference as between telling peasants, “Move to the city or starve”, or telling peasants, “Move to the city, or we will force you to do so.”
And pretending that most of the bloodshed we have seen in the last 300 years or so was just “politics”, neatly separated from the social rules adopted to run the economy doesn’t work for me, sorry.
Stealing the Americas from the Indigenes was accumulation on a vast scale. Tens of millions died.
Black slavery was a central element of the developing Ante-bellum capitalism economy.
Workers dying in sweatshops (or throwing themselves out windows in despair) so you can have cheap clothes may not bother you at night.
It angers me.
They don’t have to die.
Period.
I don’t see how could think otherwise.
Thanks. Again, really. I enjoy the back and forth.
And thank you, Countme-a-Demon! Always.
Hey, Hey, wj, how many peasants did you kill today? Heh. Sorry. Just kidding.
Thanks for the reply. Really. And yes, I’ve been in some places in eastern Africa that I’d just as soon forget, thank you very much for that lecture.
Industrialization is a process of harnessing carbon, technology, and human effort to accumulate a social surplus to build the platform for raising standards of living in the future.(Marxism!!! ayeiiii!)
I don’t see a whole lot of difference as between telling peasants, “Move to the city or starve”, or telling peasants, “Move to the city, or we will force you to do so.”
And pretending that most of the bloodshed we have seen in the last 300 years or so was just “politics”, neatly separated from the social rules adopted to run the economy doesn’t work for me, sorry.
Stealing the Americas from the Indigenes was accumulation on a vast scale. Tens of millions died.
Black slavery was a central element of the developing Ante-bellum capitalism economy.
Workers dying in sweatshops (or throwing themselves out windows in despair) so you can have cheap clothes may not bother you at night.
It angers me.
They don’t have to die.
Period.
I don’t see how could think otherwise.
Thanks. Again, really. I enjoy the back and forth.
And thank you, Countme-a-Demon! Always.
Speaking of stoop labor, I love that solutions on the right in this country to our stoop labor situation, are to kick out one set of foreign stoopers out of the country and replace them with domestic stoopers who will have no choice but to take these subsistence jobs because welfare, all social programs, as we know it will be dead and they will have no choice.
They never mention air conditioning either.
And we can’t offer air conditioned resting huts for the current foreign stoopers, because they’ll like it too much and stay in the country.
Speaking of stoop labor, I love that solutions on the right in this country to our stoop labor situation, are to kick out one set of foreign stoopers out of the country and replace them with domestic stoopers who will have no choice but to take these subsistence jobs because welfare, all social programs, as we know it will be dead and they will have no choice.
They never mention air conditioning either.
And we can’t offer air conditioned resting huts for the current foreign stoopers, because they’ll like it too much and stay in the country.
It’s starting to cook with gas, that Mueller thing:
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/09/facebook-google-and-youtube-were-our.html
From Russia With Love
It’s starting to cook with gas, that Mueller thing:
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/09/facebook-google-and-youtube-were-our.html
From Russia With Love
Let’s say we do that. What happens? Well, if you say you will only allow trade from places that pay “fair” (defined how?) wages, and they cannot make a profit doing that with the workers they have available, then those factories won’t exist.
I like this game! Yowzer! Let’s say that these places divert their social output more toward increasing domestic consumption rather that squeezing factory workers to make a buck to build up vast foreign currency reserves?
Let’s try that. Shall we?
Let’s say we do that. What happens? Well, if you say you will only allow trade from places that pay “fair” (defined how?) wages, and they cannot make a profit doing that with the workers they have available, then those factories won’t exist.
I like this game! Yowzer! Let’s say that these places divert their social output more toward increasing domestic consumption rather that squeezing factory workers to make a buck to build up vast foreign currency reserves?
Let’s try that. Shall we?
An agreement between President Trump and Democrats for a three-month extension for the debt ceiling means Congress temporarily ducks a political debate. But the recurring battle will surface again in December. What could happen if we don’t raise the debt limit? Lisa Desjardins explains the history of the debt limit and how it works.
What you need to know about the federal debt ceiling, and why you should care (YouTube)
An agreement between President Trump and Democrats for a three-month extension for the debt ceiling means Congress temporarily ducks a political debate. But the recurring battle will surface again in December. What could happen if we don’t raise the debt limit? Lisa Desjardins explains the history of the debt limit and how it works.
What you need to know about the federal debt ceiling, and why you should care (YouTube)
I don’t recall that those programs worked out so well
Casey,
I would tend to agree, but you have to admit they “worked” in the sense that they brought some pretty shitty places into some semblance of industrialization and “progress” however defined.
As I have said, the cost may have been excessive, an arguable point to be sure. But to deny that it was not costly in the West is simply (IMHO)fantasy.
And I would disagree with those who so vigorously defend the current international system by insisting that I first defend uncle Joe Stalin’s treatment of the Kulaks. Which, by the way, I don’t.
Have a good one!
I don’t recall that those programs worked out so well
Casey,
I would tend to agree, but you have to admit they “worked” in the sense that they brought some pretty shitty places into some semblance of industrialization and “progress” however defined.
As I have said, the cost may have been excessive, an arguable point to be sure. But to deny that it was not costly in the West is simply (IMHO)fantasy.
And I would disagree with those who so vigorously defend the current international system by insisting that I first defend uncle Joe Stalin’s treatment of the Kulaks. Which, by the way, I don’t.
Have a good one!
http://smallbusiness.chron.com/industrial-standards-temperature-employee-work-areas-12611.html
Yes, enlightened employers, by which I mean the large percentage of employers who understand (but only from trial and error without air conditioning and consultation with the bean counters in the office down the hall with the swivel fan on the floor regarding inputs, outputs, shotputs and naked puts) that labor productivity is enhanced by a high level of workplace comfort, (not too much, now, by God, humans would lollygag) would install air conditioning in their United States-based facilities of their own free will.
But take away local ordinances and building codes and OSHA oversight, and by God that is fucking burdensome regulation that conservatives and libertarians hate, and I suspect we’d see commercial air conditioned square footage drop in the direction levels seen in the Marianas workers paradise, because, well, who’s checking.
I’ll bet some of those employers who warmed up to not having air conditioning outside of the executive suite would be Democrats, too.
After all, aren’t we always told by our elders that working up a good sweat is good for their pocketbook, er, I mean, OUR souls.
I’m pretty sure rump is just now appointing college aid fraudsters to oversee college aid fraud, college rapists to oversee Dept of Education regs regarding college rape, coal mine executives who ordered everyone back into the mine just before the parakeet keeled over to oversee parakeet safety, and the new OSHA Administrator for Indoor Air Quality, I give you, ladies and gentleman Sweatgland J. Coughington III .
http://smallbusiness.chron.com/industrial-standards-temperature-employee-work-areas-12611.html
Yes, enlightened employers, by which I mean the large percentage of employers who understand (but only from trial and error without air conditioning and consultation with the bean counters in the office down the hall with the swivel fan on the floor regarding inputs, outputs, shotputs and naked puts) that labor productivity is enhanced by a high level of workplace comfort, (not too much, now, by God, humans would lollygag) would install air conditioning in their United States-based facilities of their own free will.
But take away local ordinances and building codes and OSHA oversight, and by God that is fucking burdensome regulation that conservatives and libertarians hate, and I suspect we’d see commercial air conditioned square footage drop in the direction levels seen in the Marianas workers paradise, because, well, who’s checking.
I’ll bet some of those employers who warmed up to not having air conditioning outside of the executive suite would be Democrats, too.
After all, aren’t we always told by our elders that working up a good sweat is good for their pocketbook, er, I mean, OUR souls.
I’m pretty sure rump is just now appointing college aid fraudsters to oversee college aid fraud, college rapists to oversee Dept of Education regs regarding college rape, coal mine executives who ordered everyone back into the mine just before the parakeet keeled over to oversee parakeet safety, and the new OSHA Administrator for Indoor Air Quality, I give you, ladies and gentleman Sweatgland J. Coughington III .
Let’s say that these places divert their social output more toward increasing domestic consumption rather that squeezing factory workers to make a buck to build up vast foreign currency reserves?
OK, but I’m not entirely clear on how you make that happen. Back to the days of “the Marines have landed, and have the situation well in hand.” perhaps? Because it isn’t clear that a single (Western, presumably) country enacting a “fair pay” trade law is going to make it happen. Even if we are the biggest economy in the world (for the moment).
Let’s say that these places divert their social output more toward increasing domestic consumption rather that squeezing factory workers to make a buck to build up vast foreign currency reserves?
OK, but I’m not entirely clear on how you make that happen. Back to the days of “the Marines have landed, and have the situation well in hand.” perhaps? Because it isn’t clear that a single (Western, presumably) country enacting a “fair pay” trade law is going to make it happen. Even if we are the biggest economy in the world (for the moment).
I appreciate that there are a number of people here who are (far!) less ignorant about third world agricultural conditions that the usual run of Americans. Live and learn; I’ll try not to go into “educate the ignorant” mode quite so much.
I appreciate that there are a number of people here who are (far!) less ignorant about third world agricultural conditions that the usual run of Americans. Live and learn; I’ll try not to go into “educate the ignorant” mode quite so much.
What I don’t agree with is treating these eager sick-of-subsistence-agriculture beavers like we’ve-got-them-right-where-we-want-them chattel and instead skipping the sweat part of the sweatshop once and for all and installing air conditioning, among other basic human amenities.
Sweatshop workers have been interviewed and asked if they would accept some reduction in pay in exchange for better, safer working conditions and/or benefits. Their neer universical responce has been, “Show me the money!”
What I don’t agree with is treating these eager sick-of-subsistence-agriculture beavers like we’ve-got-them-right-where-we-want-them chattel and instead skipping the sweat part of the sweatshop once and for all and installing air conditioning, among other basic human amenities.
Sweatshop workers have been interviewed and asked if they would accept some reduction in pay in exchange for better, safer working conditions and/or benefits. Their neer universical responce has been, “Show me the money!”
pretending that most of the bloodshed we have seen in the last 300 years or so was just “politics”, neatly separated from the social rules adopted to run the economy doesn’t work for me, sorry.
Bobby, I wasn’t intending to pretend anything. I was (amazingly enough) asking an honest question. Of someone who was exercised about the number of people who had died to establish an industrial economy in the West. Because it seemed reasonable to differentiate between economic and non-economic causes.
I note without comment that no answer has been forthcoming from the original poster.
pretending that most of the bloodshed we have seen in the last 300 years or so was just “politics”, neatly separated from the social rules adopted to run the economy doesn’t work for me, sorry.
Bobby, I wasn’t intending to pretend anything. I was (amazingly enough) asking an honest question. Of someone who was exercised about the number of people who had died to establish an industrial economy in the West. Because it seemed reasonable to differentiate between economic and non-economic causes.
I note without comment that no answer has been forthcoming from the original poster.
Well, lj, it’s your party not mine.
This is the thing, if there are people in my party willing to send kids who have lived their entire f*cking lives in this country to a country where they don’t speak the language, may or may not have family, it’s not my f*cking party. Move a factory to your state to keep the pork, I understand. Have cocktails with whatever kind of corporate trash to get donations, yeah. But this… Call it a litmus test, but anyone who is doing this because they are trying to firm up their election chances. I don’t want.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/sep/06/undocumented-mexicans-raised-in-america-daca-dreamers
Well, lj, it’s your party not mine.
This is the thing, if there are people in my party willing to send kids who have lived their entire f*cking lives in this country to a country where they don’t speak the language, may or may not have family, it’s not my f*cking party. Move a factory to your state to keep the pork, I understand. Have cocktails with whatever kind of corporate trash to get donations, yeah. But this… Call it a litmus test, but anyone who is doing this because they are trying to firm up their election chances. I don’t want.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/sep/06/undocumented-mexicans-raised-in-america-daca-dreamers
Wow.
Sometimes you can win the argument, even if it’s a decade too late…
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/09/08/max_baucus_supports_single_payer_wtf.html
Wow.
Sometimes you can win the argument, even if it’s a decade too late…
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/09/08/max_baucus_supports_single_payer_wtf.html
Call it a litmus test, but anyone who is doing this because they are trying to firm up their election chances. I don’t want.
I understand the sentiment, believe me.
But if the alternative to keeping him is the Republicans having a majority and enacting lots of legislation**? Priorities….
** OK, they haven’t demonstrated an ability to do that lately. But be clear that you are counting on that continuing.
OK, but I’m not entirely clear on how you make that happen.
Yes, wj…a tough nut. One could start by discouraging currency manipulation and having the World Bank impose “austerity” at the first hint of economic trouble…like they did in the late 90’s.
We could adopt trade policies that demand “fair trade” See Erik Loomis at LGM on this…a drum he pounds all the time.
We could let the developing world enjoy trade barriers to encourage production for domestic use…why, just like the US did!
There are a host policies we could adopt.
We don’t.
Call it a litmus test, but anyone who is doing this because they are trying to firm up their election chances. I don’t want.
I understand the sentiment, believe me.
But if the alternative to keeping him is the Republicans having a majority and enacting lots of legislation**? Priorities….
** OK, they haven’t demonstrated an ability to do that lately. But be clear that you are counting on that continuing.
OK, but I’m not entirely clear on how you make that happen.
Yes, wj…a tough nut. One could start by discouraging currency manipulation and having the World Bank impose “austerity” at the first hint of economic trouble…like they did in the late 90’s.
We could adopt trade policies that demand “fair trade” See Erik Loomis at LGM on this…a drum he pounds all the time.
We could let the developing world enjoy trade barriers to encourage production for domestic use…why, just like the US did!
There are a host policies we could adopt.
We don’t.
I note without comment that no answer has been forthcoming from the original poster.
it’s a bob thing.
I note without comment that no answer has been forthcoming from the original poster.
it’s a bob thing.
Sometimes I wonder if there’s a lawsuit for violation of constitutional rights in deporting people covered by DACA.
But since violation of immigration laws is, IIRC, considered a civil offense with a civil penalty (deportation), I think they would fail. Maybe not though.
It’s a whole heap of punishing the innocent to get back at the guilty though. WWJD?
Sometimes I wonder if there’s a lawsuit for violation of constitutional rights in deporting people covered by DACA.
But since violation of immigration laws is, IIRC, considered a civil offense with a civil penalty (deportation), I think they would fail. Maybe not though.
It’s a whole heap of punishing the innocent to get back at the guilty though. WWJD?
‘Sweatshop workers have been interviewed and asked if they would accept some reduction in pay in exchange for better, safer working conditions and/or benefits. Their neer universical responce has been, “Show me the money!”
Well, sure, I would too, if it meant a choice between a safer workplace and feeding my kids or paying the rent.
Next question.
The sweatshop workers should interview the sweatshop owners and ask them if they would accept sweatshop chaos and/or unions, better working conditions, or giving up their second and third homes or other assets to pay for installing/upgrading better working conditions in their workplaces to enhance productivity.
The owners I expect would say they can get the same or more productivity any day by merely firing the aggrieved workers and replacing them with the many agricultural laborers migrating into the third-world cities from the countryside who don’t want to sell their bodies.
Or maybe higher taxes to allow government to extend workplace safety aid like installing air conditioning.
Thanks for the debt limit link, Charles.
There’s a Warren Buffet interview on the sideboard including remarks on the US debt that bears watching too.
I would also like to add that international corporations, many American, have improved overall working conditions and incomes in second and third world countries as well, despite throwing their American work forces to the wolves, but I’m not a rump nationalist on trade.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/economy-tale-of-two-janitors/
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/a-destitute-mexico-is-that-what-we-want/
And I thought I saved a link about a company in Minnesota or Wisconsin that has refused to move their operations abroad or to Texas because they are proud of providing jobs and decent livelihoods to their neighbors and communities, but I can’t find it.
All of this stuff is not mutually exclusive.
Why can’t everyone tie for first and skip the playoffs.
‘Sweatshop workers have been interviewed and asked if they would accept some reduction in pay in exchange for better, safer working conditions and/or benefits. Their neer universical responce has been, “Show me the money!”
Well, sure, I would too, if it meant a choice between a safer workplace and feeding my kids or paying the rent.
Next question.
The sweatshop workers should interview the sweatshop owners and ask them if they would accept sweatshop chaos and/or unions, better working conditions, or giving up their second and third homes or other assets to pay for installing/upgrading better working conditions in their workplaces to enhance productivity.
The owners I expect would say they can get the same or more productivity any day by merely firing the aggrieved workers and replacing them with the many agricultural laborers migrating into the third-world cities from the countryside who don’t want to sell their bodies.
Or maybe higher taxes to allow government to extend workplace safety aid like installing air conditioning.
Thanks for the debt limit link, Charles.
There’s a Warren Buffet interview on the sideboard including remarks on the US debt that bears watching too.
I would also like to add that international corporations, many American, have improved overall working conditions and incomes in second and third world countries as well, despite throwing their American work forces to the wolves, but I’m not a rump nationalist on trade.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/economy-tale-of-two-janitors/
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/a-destitute-mexico-is-that-what-we-want/
And I thought I saved a link about a company in Minnesota or Wisconsin that has refused to move their operations abroad or to Texas because they are proud of providing jobs and decent livelihoods to their neighbors and communities, but I can’t find it.
All of this stuff is not mutually exclusive.
Why can’t everyone tie for first and skip the playoffs.
To say
“Makes me think that Bob has a point…” does not mean “See you at the barricades”. I understand playing the long game. I don’t see how that is served by supporting a Trump initiative that is merely ingratiating him to his own base.
That said, I think Bob’s notions are particularly flawed, because capital, like any other evolutionary idea, has changed enough over the course of time to protect itself from the idea that a bunch of people can go out in the streets and overturn it. bobbyp’s link about who owns what percentage shows that, as Pogo said, we have met the enemy and he is us.
To say
“Makes me think that Bob has a point…” does not mean “See you at the barricades”. I understand playing the long game. I don’t see how that is served by supporting a Trump initiative that is merely ingratiating him to his own base.
That said, I think Bob’s notions are particularly flawed, because capital, like any other evolutionary idea, has changed enough over the course of time to protect itself from the idea that a bunch of people can go out in the streets and overturn it. bobbyp’s link about who owns what percentage shows that, as Pogo said, we have met the enemy and he is us.
Those aren’t my notions, I too am looking and hoping at social media and networked resistance and in Egypt and Turkey and Charlottesville and Venezuela it always ends up in the streets. Partly it is because the lower classes and young entertain themselves there and partly because it is the socialized collectivized bodies that create solidarity and commitment, as in can’t look back now. see Joshua Clover, Riot Strike Riot Good book.
b) Gotta turn the cops and soldiers. You do that face to face.
c) Bernsteins evolutionary socialism has failed and is over. Late capitalism has more and more funny money to toss around and the best bet is to take and do little good things while the millions die.
d) I don’t think it will be organized, but look like flash mobs and anarchy and sabotage and going bartleby at work.
e) The key after taking power, partially or locally or globally as Trotsky knew, is to make sure there is no counterrevolution and resurgence of the bureaucracy
Those aren’t my notions, I too am looking and hoping at social media and networked resistance and in Egypt and Turkey and Charlottesville and Venezuela it always ends up in the streets. Partly it is because the lower classes and young entertain themselves there and partly because it is the socialized collectivized bodies that create solidarity and commitment, as in can’t look back now. see Joshua Clover, Riot Strike Riot Good book.
b) Gotta turn the cops and soldiers. You do that face to face.
c) Bernsteins evolutionary socialism has failed and is over. Late capitalism has more and more funny money to toss around and the best bet is to take and do little good things while the millions die.
d) I don’t think it will be organized, but look like flash mobs and anarchy and sabotage and going bartleby at work.
e) The key after taking power, partially or locally or globally as Trotsky knew, is to make sure there is no counterrevolution and resurgence of the bureaucracy
Trotsky also knew what an ice pick in the brain felt like…
to take and do little good things while the millions die
dozo…
Trotsky also knew what an ice pick in the brain felt like…
to take and do little good things while the millions die
dozo…
If this keeps up, the FOX blondes are going to be stuck sexually harassing each other:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/eric-bolling-out-fox-news
If this keeps up, the FOX blondes are going to be stuck sexually harassing each other:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/eric-bolling-out-fox-news
That is where I differ with the old saintly Marxist going to meetings and handing pamphlets and talking on shop floors. So so early twentieth, if the workers could be organized we would have unions. This is fact. I am expecting something like Trump turning Erdogan, machinegunning down the pinkpussyhats, getting away with it, and choices being made. History runs one step ahead of us, facing us, beating its wings against the wind, etc..
People won’t care about glowing Koreans, except overseas, and isolation embargo and depression might help.
History always has to help
That is where I differ with the old saintly Marxist going to meetings and handing pamphlets and talking on shop floors. So so early twentieth, if the workers could be organized we would have unions. This is fact. I am expecting something like Trump turning Erdogan, machinegunning down the pinkpussyhats, getting away with it, and choices being made. History runs one step ahead of us, facing us, beating its wings against the wind, etc..
People won’t care about glowing Koreans, except overseas, and isolation embargo and depression might help.
History always has to help
They thought the title read: “Take the vote away from everyone but the white men.”
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/meadows-jones-signed-brief-end-gerrymandering
They thought the title read: “Take the vote away from everyone but the white men.”
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/meadows-jones-signed-brief-end-gerrymandering
History always has to help
Help what? Make glow in the dark Koreans?
History always has to help
Help what? Make glow in the dark Koreans?
The number one job is preventing social unrest.
FAIL
other topics:
bob’s got more than a point, I just don’t feel like shooting people to make a thousand flowers bloom.
let’s figure out something else.
debt ceiling:
we committed to spending the money, we spent the money, now the bill is due.
time to pay the man.
and seriously, (R)’s don’t spend money like a bunch of drunken sailors on shore leave?
gimme a break.
The number one job is preventing social unrest.
FAIL
other topics:
bob’s got more than a point, I just don’t feel like shooting people to make a thousand flowers bloom.
let’s figure out something else.
debt ceiling:
we committed to spending the money, we spent the money, now the bill is due.
time to pay the man.
and seriously, (R)’s don’t spend money like a bunch of drunken sailors on shore leave?
gimme a break.
also, too:
Limbaugh
what a greedy, irresponsible, hypocritical, lying sack of crap.
honorary member of congress.
some dumb-ass dittohead is going to die because of this man’s inane bullshit. limbaugh will be safe and dry.
he should give thanks dante isn’t god, he’d have his on personal circle of hell.
also, too:
Limbaugh
what a greedy, irresponsible, hypocritical, lying sack of crap.
honorary member of congress.
some dumb-ass dittohead is going to die because of this man’s inane bullshit. limbaugh will be safe and dry.
he should give thanks dante isn’t god, he’d have his on personal circle of hell.
http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a12203427/houston-harvey-environmental-disaster/
http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a12203427/houston-harvey-environmental-disaster/
I thought this from Coates was pretty good.
A short excerpt: “the white working class functions rhetorically not as a real community of people so much as a tool to quiet the demands of those who want a more inclusive America.”
Separate but related, Peggy Noonan was on about “reconciliation” after the Civil War on twitter (or maybe somewhere) and it struck a learned former front pager here that to hold Nooners’ view on the matter means dismissing the newly freed slaves as citizens and even people.
Anyway, WTF happened to the Patriots?
I thought this from Coates was pretty good.
A short excerpt: “the white working class functions rhetorically not as a real community of people so much as a tool to quiet the demands of those who want a more inclusive America.”
Separate but related, Peggy Noonan was on about “reconciliation” after the Civil War on twitter (or maybe somewhere) and it struck a learned former front pager here that to hold Nooners’ view on the matter means dismissing the newly freed slaves as citizens and even people.
Anyway, WTF happened to the Patriots?
I don’t recall ever giving Equifax my permission to gather my data, judge it, grade it, rate it, and have it hacked.
Who the fuck do these corporate virtual governments think they the fuck are?
How many fuckers am I going to have to fucking kill in this country?
By which I mean give them swirlies in some Congressman’s Capitol Hill toilet, if I have the bucks to get in line to blow the Congressman.
I don’t recall ever giving Equifax my permission to gather my data, judge it, grade it, rate it, and have it hacked.
Who the fuck do these corporate virtual governments think they the fuck are?
How many fuckers am I going to have to fucking kill in this country?
By which I mean give them swirlies in some Congressman’s Capitol Hill toilet, if I have the bucks to get in line to blow the Congressman.
Limbaugh
what a greedy, irresponsible, hypocritical, lying sack of crap.
This is an understatement.
He is a lying carbuncle, a lickspittle, a cyst on the body politic, an actual piece of shit, a low life scumbag…..
This is just a start….
Limbaugh
what a greedy, irresponsible, hypocritical, lying sack of crap.
This is an understatement.
He is a lying carbuncle, a lickspittle, a cyst on the body politic, an actual piece of shit, a low life scumbag…..
This is just a start….
“we committed to spending the money, we spent the money, now the bill is due.”
This is the worst excuse I’ve ever heard, though the normal one. It’s like some kid running up his dad’s credit card and when the bill comes in shrugging. Oh well the money’s spent anyway.
We should be managing the spending so that it doesn’t have to go up. That would be accountability. I don’t care which set of drunken sailors spent our paycheck.
We have become so used to the debt ceiling politics no one thinks to question why it has to keep going up.
“we committed to spending the money, we spent the money, now the bill is due.”
This is the worst excuse I’ve ever heard, though the normal one. It’s like some kid running up his dad’s credit card and when the bill comes in shrugging. Oh well the money’s spent anyway.
We should be managing the spending so that it doesn’t have to go up. That would be accountability. I don’t care which set of drunken sailors spent our paycheck.
We have become so used to the debt ceiling politics no one thinks to question why it has to keep going up.
If you don’t think we should spend so much money, fine. But it’s hard to see the virtue in spending the money and then refusing to pay the bill.
Do you go into a restaurant, have a meal, and then ignore the bill when it arrives? If you want to argue for not dining out, OK. But once you’ve done so, you pay up. And saying “Gosh, I’ve got a credit limit, so my card won’t pay” isn’t an impressive excuse.
If you don’t think we should spend so much money, fine. But it’s hard to see the virtue in spending the money and then refusing to pay the bill.
Do you go into a restaurant, have a meal, and then ignore the bill when it arrives? If you want to argue for not dining out, OK. But once you’ve done so, you pay up. And saying “Gosh, I’ve got a credit limit, so my card won’t pay” isn’t an impressive excuse.
We should be managing the spending so that it doesn’t have to go up.
OK. That’s what the budget is for. Remind me who gets to vote on it.
We should be managing the spending so that it doesn’t have to go up.
OK. That’s what the budget is for. Remind me who gets to vote on it.
“We should be managing the spending so that it doesn’t have to go up.”
It has to do with Big Water.
WTF?
“We should be managing the spending so that it doesn’t have to go up.”
It has to do with Big Water.
WTF?
It would help the budget if you and I would just fucking die already.
You go first.
When does this “glimpse of sanity” show up?
My landlord, my health insurance, my doctors, and my candlestick maker seem to want more from me every year.
They all seem to demand rising inputs, but the output stays the same. I measure the square footage of my apartment every year. It has stayed exactly the same since I moved in. Why izzat?
My car. Don’t get me started. Try and get it started instead. I kid on that one, but I can see the day coming. And the next vehicle I have to purchase .. that’s right … I have no fucking choice … I’m certain whomever sells it to me is not going to be worried about my fucking budget.
What are you looking to spend? The same as I did in 1996.
I demand Irma cut its prices.
You know what stayed level last year? My fucking taxes.
What the eff is their problem?
It’s cheaper all around in Costa Rica, though they aspire to our cost of living increases.
It would help the budget if you and I would just fucking die already.
You go first.
When does this “glimpse of sanity” show up?
My landlord, my health insurance, my doctors, and my candlestick maker seem to want more from me every year.
They all seem to demand rising inputs, but the output stays the same. I measure the square footage of my apartment every year. It has stayed exactly the same since I moved in. Why izzat?
My car. Don’t get me started. Try and get it started instead. I kid on that one, but I can see the day coming. And the next vehicle I have to purchase .. that’s right … I have no fucking choice … I’m certain whomever sells it to me is not going to be worried about my fucking budget.
What are you looking to spend? The same as I did in 1996.
I demand Irma cut its prices.
You know what stayed level last year? My fucking taxes.
What the eff is their problem?
It’s cheaper all around in Costa Rica, though they aspire to our cost of living increases.
Speaking of Big Water, maybe I see where Limbaugh is coming from, though I can’t see where he’s running to.
Riddle me this. How izzit that water in bottles is so expensive and scarce all along the Gulf Coast and up the Eastern Seaboard right now, but when I look down (not me, you, I’m in Colorado, we’d kill for partly cloudy), I’m up to my knees in the free unbottled stuff?
Hanh? HoodooIgottatsalktoaboutdisheah phenomenon?
Speaking of Big Water, maybe I see where Limbaugh is coming from, though I can’t see where he’s running to.
Riddle me this. How izzit that water in bottles is so expensive and scarce all along the Gulf Coast and up the Eastern Seaboard right now, but when I look down (not me, you, I’m in Colorado, we’d kill for partly cloudy), I’m up to my knees in the free unbottled stuff?
Hanh? HoodooIgottatsalktoaboutdisheah phenomenon?
Annudda mystery and its only 5:00 am on a Saturday.
For some reason, I just looked at my library card expiration date.
It’s 2091.
What do they know that I don’t and how come I don’t?
Here’s another thing: I have 20 books checked out at the moment. I pick them up and I take them home. Then I take them back.
It’s like some sort of rotating shoplifting book club on the honor system.
No one bats an eye.
No one says a word about paying for them.
It’s like magic.
Here’s the thing. I have it on the QT that the city mandates a balanced budget. But the library somehow keeps adding to their collections. They buy the new books every year to keep the old books company I guess.
If they was watching their budget to my satisfaction, everyone in the city would be fighting over one last copy of “David Copperfield”.
But, no, everyone wants Ann Coulter on the shelves too. I ‘d like to shelve HER.
Howdodeydodat? Are they buying them from Amazon?
Annudda mystery and its only 5:00 am on a Saturday.
For some reason, I just looked at my library card expiration date.
It’s 2091.
What do they know that I don’t and how come I don’t?
Here’s another thing: I have 20 books checked out at the moment. I pick them up and I take them home. Then I take them back.
It’s like some sort of rotating shoplifting book club on the honor system.
No one bats an eye.
No one says a word about paying for them.
It’s like magic.
Here’s the thing. I have it on the QT that the city mandates a balanced budget. But the library somehow keeps adding to their collections. They buy the new books every year to keep the old books company I guess.
If they was watching their budget to my satisfaction, everyone in the city would be fighting over one last copy of “David Copperfield”.
But, no, everyone wants Ann Coulter on the shelves too. I ‘d like to shelve HER.
Howdodeydodat? Are they buying them from Amazon?
Here’s a coinkadink:
http://juanitajean.com/too-soon-he-says-too-soon/
Scott Pruitt of the EPA (Exxon Pissing Administration) has a secret working group, consisting of him and his mirror image, coming up with a date when he will permit us to talk about climate change, not in so many words, but you know how it is.
Anyway, the rumors are that date is 2091, when our First Amendment rights will be restored
The SAME year as my library card expiration date!
I think we’re getting somewhere.
Here’s a coinkadink:
http://juanitajean.com/too-soon-he-says-too-soon/
Scott Pruitt of the EPA (Exxon Pissing Administration) has a secret working group, consisting of him and his mirror image, coming up with a date when he will permit us to talk about climate change, not in so many words, but you know how it is.
Anyway, the rumors are that date is 2091, when our First Amendment rights will be restored
The SAME year as my library card expiration date!
I think we’re getting somewhere.
“Gosh I’ve got a credit limit so I can’t pay” is a pretty strong check on having the dinner you can’t afford in the first place. In fact, it’s a debt ceiling. Most people have one. And it does get raised occasionally but not every 12 months indefinitely.
“Gosh I’ve got a credit limit so I can’t pay” is a pretty strong check on having the dinner you can’t afford in the first place. In fact, it’s a debt ceiling. Most people have one. And it does get raised occasionally but not every 12 months indefinitely.
It’s like some kid running up his dad’s credit card and when the bill comes in shrugging.
no, it’s like a nation of people making decisions via their (mostly) freely elected representatives about what to spend money on.
then deciding they would rather stiff their creditors than pay.
there is no “dad’s credit card here”. voters and their reps are adults. it’s our credit card.
We should be managing the spending so that it doesn’t have to go up.
fine with me.
That would be accountability
“we are going to stiff our creditors” is not accountability.
we had gramm-rudman-hollings, PAYGO, and a couple of sequesters. all in, that’s a lot of the last 30 years.
did it work?
americans have some cognitive dissonance about what they do or don’t want government to do. mostly, they want the stuff they like, and don’t like the other stuff. and they like the stuff they like *almost* enough to actually be willing to pay for most of it.
thus, a mismatch between incomes and expenditures.
want to fix that, fix the underlying problem.
stiffing creditors will improve nothing.
It’s like some kid running up his dad’s credit card and when the bill comes in shrugging.
no, it’s like a nation of people making decisions via their (mostly) freely elected representatives about what to spend money on.
then deciding they would rather stiff their creditors than pay.
there is no “dad’s credit card here”. voters and their reps are adults. it’s our credit card.
We should be managing the spending so that it doesn’t have to go up.
fine with me.
That would be accountability
“we are going to stiff our creditors” is not accountability.
we had gramm-rudman-hollings, PAYGO, and a couple of sequesters. all in, that’s a lot of the last 30 years.
did it work?
americans have some cognitive dissonance about what they do or don’t want government to do. mostly, they want the stuff they like, and don’t like the other stuff. and they like the stuff they like *almost* enough to actually be willing to pay for most of it.
thus, a mismatch between incomes and expenditures.
want to fix that, fix the underlying problem.
stiffing creditors will improve nothing.
Marty: We have become so used to the debt ceiling politics no one thinks to question why it has to keep going up.
Why does GDP have to keep going up?
But I digress. The federal government’s debt is not Marty’s debt. Or mine, or The Count’s, or wj’s or russell’s. So until we adopt my longstanding proposal to “privatize the national debt”, I remain leery of people who take the debt limit issue personally.
Of course the “national debt” is ultimately our debt collectively, but we are mortal and the US is (we hope and assume) not. This is one major difference between the “national debt” and the kinds of personal debt to which it is often analogized.
The simple answer to Marty’s implicit question is: We The People refuse to tax ourselves enough to cover our collective expenses every year, so We have to borrow more every year.
I know the standard rhetoric has it that debt is always the consequence of Too Much Spending and never of Too Few Taxes, but this merely shows that rhetoric need not respect basic arithmetic.
That goes double for the shell game that parades under the cuddly name “revenue-neutral tax reform”. Diddle the rates and exemptions all you like. If the result is really “revenue-neutral”, some people’s tax bill will go up if some other people’s tax bill goes down. If everybody’s tax bill stays the same, what was the point of “tax reform” in the first place?
–TP
Marty: We have become so used to the debt ceiling politics no one thinks to question why it has to keep going up.
Why does GDP have to keep going up?
But I digress. The federal government’s debt is not Marty’s debt. Or mine, or The Count’s, or wj’s or russell’s. So until we adopt my longstanding proposal to “privatize the national debt”, I remain leery of people who take the debt limit issue personally.
Of course the “national debt” is ultimately our debt collectively, but we are mortal and the US is (we hope and assume) not. This is one major difference between the “national debt” and the kinds of personal debt to which it is often analogized.
The simple answer to Marty’s implicit question is: We The People refuse to tax ourselves enough to cover our collective expenses every year, so We have to borrow more every year.
I know the standard rhetoric has it that debt is always the consequence of Too Much Spending and never of Too Few Taxes, but this merely shows that rhetoric need not respect basic arithmetic.
That goes double for the shell game that parades under the cuddly name “revenue-neutral tax reform”. Diddle the rates and exemptions all you like. If the result is really “revenue-neutral”, some people’s tax bill will go up if some other people’s tax bill goes down. If everybody’s tax bill stays the same, what was the point of “tax reform” in the first place?
–TP
We The People refuse to tax ourselves enough to cover our collective expenses every year, so We have to borrow more every year.
bingo.
We The People refuse to tax ourselves enough to cover our collective expenses every year, so We have to borrow more every year.
bingo.
The federal government’s debt is not Marty’s debt.
Always, always, always…
…one person’s debt is somebody else’s asset and income stream
I don’t know what is in Marty’s 401k.
The federal government’s debt is not Marty’s debt.
Always, always, always…
…one person’s debt is somebody else’s asset and income stream
I don’t know what is in Marty’s 401k.
We The People refuse to tax ourselves enough to cover our collective expenses every year, so We have to borrow more every year.
1) There is no “We the People”
2) Everytime I try to link it Win 7 saves the PDF off, but Michael Kalecki’s “Political Aspects of Full Employment” 1943 is a foundational paper on the class conflicts between borrowing to finance gov’t and taxing to finance gov’t. Capitalists prefer borrowing because it gives them assets. Easy enough to find with google.
We The People refuse to tax ourselves enough to cover our collective expenses every year, so We have to borrow more every year.
1) There is no “We the People”
2) Everytime I try to link it Win 7 saves the PDF off, but Michael Kalecki’s “Political Aspects of Full Employment” 1943 is a foundational paper on the class conflicts between borrowing to finance gov’t and taxing to finance gov’t. Capitalists prefer borrowing because it gives them assets. Easy enough to find with google.
I feel Marty is all bent about the wrong thing.
I feel Marty is all bent about the wrong thing.
“I feel Marty is all bent about the wrong thing.”
I can be bent about two things at the same time.
“I feel Marty is all bent about the wrong thing.”
I can be bent about two things at the same time.
I can be bent about two things at the same time.
LOL. Don’t we know!
I can be bent about two things at the same time.
LOL. Don’t we know!
Bob,
I had not heard of Kalecki or his 1943 paper before, so thanks very much. I haven’t had time to read it all, but I’m delighted to see that he makes a point up front that I have been making on the internets for 20+ years: The Rich vastly prefer lending money to The Guvmint over paying taxes to The Guvmint. And I find this footnote of his interesting:
Which seems pertinent to our present discussion.
Incidentally, I will be interested to see if Kalecki addresses a (somewhat rhetorical) question I have often asked: just before WW2 the US was in the Great Depression, with Americans suffering from lack of “money”; suddenly they had tons of it to lend to The Guvmint; where the hell did it come from?
–TP
Bob,
I had not heard of Kalecki or his 1943 paper before, so thanks very much. I haven’t had time to read it all, but I’m delighted to see that he makes a point up front that I have been making on the internets for 20+ years: The Rich vastly prefer lending money to The Guvmint over paying taxes to The Guvmint. And I find this footnote of his interesting:
Which seems pertinent to our present discussion.
Incidentally, I will be interested to see if Kalecki addresses a (somewhat rhetorical) question I have often asked: just before WW2 the US was in the Great Depression, with Americans suffering from lack of “money”; suddenly they had tons of it to lend to The Guvmint; where the hell did it come from?
–TP
Marty:
Your comment here suggests that you still don’t know (or you keep forgetting) that the Federal Debt Ceiling is not, in fact, a debt ceiling. The name is deceptively wrong (I have no idea why, if it was deliberately chosen to deceive or if it just came out that way).
Seriously, is this not clear to you? Or do you not believe it?
Marty:
Your comment here suggests that you still don’t know (or you keep forgetting) that the Federal Debt Ceiling is not, in fact, a debt ceiling. The name is deceptively wrong (I have no idea why, if it was deliberately chosen to deceive or if it just came out that way).
Seriously, is this not clear to you? Or do you not believe it?
“Gosh I’ve got a credit limit so I can’t pay” is a pretty strong check on having the dinner you can’t afford in the first place.
Marty,
Yes, it’s a strong check on having that dinner. It’s no excuse at all for having the dinner anyway, and then refusing to pay
One more time. The debt ceiling is not a limit on the budget. Congress does not say, “We have to do thus and so (including raising taxes?) because there is a statutory limit on our borrowing”
They do what they like and then posture when the commitments the government has made, with Congressional authority, require an increase in borrowing.
Please tell us you get that.
“Gosh I’ve got a credit limit so I can’t pay” is a pretty strong check on having the dinner you can’t afford in the first place.
Marty,
Yes, it’s a strong check on having that dinner. It’s no excuse at all for having the dinner anyway, and then refusing to pay
One more time. The debt ceiling is not a limit on the budget. Congress does not say, “We have to do thus and so (including raising taxes?) because there is a statutory limit on our borrowing”
They do what they like and then posture when the commitments the government has made, with Congressional authority, require an increase in borrowing.
Please tell us you get that.
Please tell us you get that.
Facebook, I’m guessing…
Please tell us you get that.
Facebook, I’m guessing…
Refusal to raise the debt ceiling: (1.) An imaginary line in the sand established by Congress to pretend that they did not, by law, authorize the spending they obligated the executive branch to undertake; (2.) A willfully irresponsible action undertaken by Congress forcing the executive branch to break the law.
Refusal to raise the debt ceiling: (1.) An imaginary line in the sand established by Congress to pretend that they did not, by law, authorize the spending they obligated the executive branch to undertake; (2.) A willfully irresponsible action undertaken by Congress forcing the executive branch to break the law.
Gosh I’ve got a credit limit so I can’t pay” is a pretty strong check on having the dinner you can’t afford in the first place. In fact, it’s a debt ceiling. Most people have one. And it does get raised occasionally but not every 12 months indefinitely.
A credit limit, or a debt ceiling, is only a constraint if you have to pay before you dine. But that’s not where we’re at.
I guess I need a more elaborate analogy:
I took out a loan to buy a new car. One with annual payments rather than monthly (because I don’t want to constrain my other spending to pay out that much every month). Then, when the annual payment comes due, I took out a new loan to pay the car loan. Then I decide that, even though lenders are still willing to make me new loans, I’ll just stiff them all and walk away.
I could get a new loan and keep paying. I could stop sending so much, so I could borrow less. But no, I’m just going to stiff them. And then, since nobody sane will lend to me after that, starve my family (or, depending on how I prioritize my spending, leave them without heat for the winter, or without water, or without medical care — and they already have conditions which require on-going treatments). Yeah, eventually enough of the family will die off, especially the grandparents and the kids, that I can pay the bills — without cutting what I spend on myself. But I’ve chosen that route, rather than make the hard choices involved in cutting my spending FIRST.
That’s the moral position of those who want to invoke the debt ceiling. Color me unimpressed.
Gosh I’ve got a credit limit so I can’t pay” is a pretty strong check on having the dinner you can’t afford in the first place. In fact, it’s a debt ceiling. Most people have one. And it does get raised occasionally but not every 12 months indefinitely.
A credit limit, or a debt ceiling, is only a constraint if you have to pay before you dine. But that’s not where we’re at.
I guess I need a more elaborate analogy:
I took out a loan to buy a new car. One with annual payments rather than monthly (because I don’t want to constrain my other spending to pay out that much every month). Then, when the annual payment comes due, I took out a new loan to pay the car loan. Then I decide that, even though lenders are still willing to make me new loans, I’ll just stiff them all and walk away.
I could get a new loan and keep paying. I could stop sending so much, so I could borrow less. But no, I’m just going to stiff them. And then, since nobody sane will lend to me after that, starve my family (or, depending on how I prioritize my spending, leave them without heat for the winter, or without water, or without medical care — and they already have conditions which require on-going treatments). Yeah, eventually enough of the family will die off, especially the grandparents and the kids, that I can pay the bills — without cutting what I spend on myself. But I’ve chosen that route, rather than make the hard choices involved in cutting my spending FIRST.
That’s the moral position of those who want to invoke the debt ceiling. Color me unimpressed.
I think Marty’s (and the GOP’s) thinking is that the national debt is like personal credit card debt.
With a personal card, if you pay your card bill every month, you establish yourself as a safe credit risk, and you get a higher credit limit.
However, if you refuse to pay even the minimum, if you default altogether, then ALL your credit cards are cancelled and you can’t borrow anymore – from anyone; not even for things like car loans or mortgages. Your credit rating gets trashed for about 10 years.
Marty and the GOP seem to believe the same should operate for the country: they say we should default on our debt. Then our credit cards will be taken away, our credit rating will be trashed, and we won’t be able to borrow anymore. Mission Accomplished!
What escapes them is that the national economy isn’t the same as personal finance. Trashing the US’ credit rating isn’t the same as personal bankruptcy. Defaulting on the national debt isn’t a personal, private affair, but one that affects the entire national economy (and a goodly part of the global economy). The US dollar stops being a safe harbor for investors – that’s the Full Faith and Credit thing. Any investment in the US economy (by citizens, institutions, and other countries) becomes a sinkhole. T-bills lose value, IRAs and 401Ks go bust, SocSec goes bust, and the whole economy blows up.
Did I say that Marty and the GOP are unable to distinguish between personal and national debt? I could be wrong about that.
It’s quite possible that Marty and the GOP are perfectly well aware of the difference between personal finances and national finances.
It’s quite possible that Marty and the GOP see the destruction of the US and global economies as Good Things We Should Strive For. Because “Burn it all down!” is a perfectly legitimate governing philosophy, no?
So the choice is, either Marty and the GOP can’t tell the difference between personal and national finance OR they can tell the difference, and are nihilists who just want to see everything collapse.
Dumb, or evil?
I think Marty’s (and the GOP’s) thinking is that the national debt is like personal credit card debt.
With a personal card, if you pay your card bill every month, you establish yourself as a safe credit risk, and you get a higher credit limit.
However, if you refuse to pay even the minimum, if you default altogether, then ALL your credit cards are cancelled and you can’t borrow anymore – from anyone; not even for things like car loans or mortgages. Your credit rating gets trashed for about 10 years.
Marty and the GOP seem to believe the same should operate for the country: they say we should default on our debt. Then our credit cards will be taken away, our credit rating will be trashed, and we won’t be able to borrow anymore. Mission Accomplished!
What escapes them is that the national economy isn’t the same as personal finance. Trashing the US’ credit rating isn’t the same as personal bankruptcy. Defaulting on the national debt isn’t a personal, private affair, but one that affects the entire national economy (and a goodly part of the global economy). The US dollar stops being a safe harbor for investors – that’s the Full Faith and Credit thing. Any investment in the US economy (by citizens, institutions, and other countries) becomes a sinkhole. T-bills lose value, IRAs and 401Ks go bust, SocSec goes bust, and the whole economy blows up.
Did I say that Marty and the GOP are unable to distinguish between personal and national debt? I could be wrong about that.
It’s quite possible that Marty and the GOP are perfectly well aware of the difference between personal finances and national finances.
It’s quite possible that Marty and the GOP see the destruction of the US and global economies as Good Things We Should Strive For. Because “Burn it all down!” is a perfectly legitimate governing philosophy, no?
So the choice is, either Marty and the GOP can’t tell the difference between personal and national finance OR they can tell the difference, and are nihilists who just want to see everything collapse.
Dumb, or evil?
Since the word “sanity” has been invoked, read this:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/how-america-lost-its-mind/534231/
It’s pretty long.
The 1960s revolution and its attendant crapola comes in for a tongue-lashing as a precursor to today’s utter horseshit, but it’s the chronicle of today’s utter horseshit right wing movement that really brings us directly to we’re absolutely fucked if we don’t kill it.
One little quibble. The author writes:
‘As the Vietnam War escalated and careened, antirationalism flowered. In his book about the remarkable protests in Washington, D.C., in the fall of 1967, The Armies of the Night, Norman Mailer describes chants (“Out demons, out—back to darkness, ye servants of Satan!”) and a circle of hundreds of protesters intending “to form a ring of exorcism sufficiently powerful to raise the Pentagon three hundred feet.” They were hoping the building would “turn orange and vibrate until all evil emissions had fled this levitation. At that point the war in Vietnam would end.”’
No, not really. I doubt anyone there believed that. It was Yippie tongue-in-cheek street theater entertainment, courtesy of Abbie Hoffman and company.
Besides, they only raised it a foot. Then it fell back to Earth and not even a witch was put out of her misery underneath it.
Now contrast that with the filth who intend and believe they will abolish all taxes and the IRS, abolish the Federal Reserve, and drown the U.S. Government in the bathtub, for starters, while of course stealing elections, preventing their enemies’ the voting franchise, and lining their own pockets in the meantime.
Not theater. Pure horseshit, yes, but these people are dangerous and should be fucking assassinated, like ISIS, their brothers in favor of the destruction of American institutions.
Turns out Atlas Shrugged is also Tillerson’s go to formative piece of shit. Nor surprising.
Paul Ryan says he grew up reading Ayn Rand. Then, he didn’t grow up, did he?
He also said in 2009 that we were living through an Ayn Rand novel. Not even the made-of-paste mannequin characters in an Ayn Rand are living. But no wonder I’ve been dying of boredom since 2009, because as in an Ayn Rand novel, you can’t get to the end of it without dozing off.
Besides, I don’t see Dagny Taggart grabbing Ryan by the crotch yet for being such an asshole, so the best part of the book has yet to come to life.
The book I want America to live through chronicles the savage death of the Republican Party.
I want to skip to the ending.
Since the word “sanity” has been invoked, read this:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/how-america-lost-its-mind/534231/
It’s pretty long.
The 1960s revolution and its attendant crapola comes in for a tongue-lashing as a precursor to today’s utter horseshit, but it’s the chronicle of today’s utter horseshit right wing movement that really brings us directly to we’re absolutely fucked if we don’t kill it.
One little quibble. The author writes:
‘As the Vietnam War escalated and careened, antirationalism flowered. In his book about the remarkable protests in Washington, D.C., in the fall of 1967, The Armies of the Night, Norman Mailer describes chants (“Out demons, out—back to darkness, ye servants of Satan!”) and a circle of hundreds of protesters intending “to form a ring of exorcism sufficiently powerful to raise the Pentagon three hundred feet.” They were hoping the building would “turn orange and vibrate until all evil emissions had fled this levitation. At that point the war in Vietnam would end.”’
No, not really. I doubt anyone there believed that. It was Yippie tongue-in-cheek street theater entertainment, courtesy of Abbie Hoffman and company.
Besides, they only raised it a foot. Then it fell back to Earth and not even a witch was put out of her misery underneath it.
Now contrast that with the filth who intend and believe they will abolish all taxes and the IRS, abolish the Federal Reserve, and drown the U.S. Government in the bathtub, for starters, while of course stealing elections, preventing their enemies’ the voting franchise, and lining their own pockets in the meantime.
Not theater. Pure horseshit, yes, but these people are dangerous and should be fucking assassinated, like ISIS, their brothers in favor of the destruction of American institutions.
Turns out Atlas Shrugged is also Tillerson’s go to formative piece of shit. Nor surprising.
Paul Ryan says he grew up reading Ayn Rand. Then, he didn’t grow up, did he?
He also said in 2009 that we were living through an Ayn Rand novel. Not even the made-of-paste mannequin characters in an Ayn Rand are living. But no wonder I’ve been dying of boredom since 2009, because as in an Ayn Rand novel, you can’t get to the end of it without dozing off.
Besides, I don’t see Dagny Taggart grabbing Ryan by the crotch yet for being such an asshole, so the best part of the book has yet to come to life.
The book I want America to live through chronicles the savage death of the Republican Party.
I want to skip to the ending.
Dumb, or evil?
Fiscally-Responsible™!
Dumb, or evil?
Fiscally-Responsible™!
I think that a certain percentage of the Republicans in this nation what to use the threat of default as a means of forcing the defunding of the government programs hey do not support, those being programs for which they cannot see any direct benefit for themselves at this time.
The fundamental philosophy is selfishness. They want tax cuts for themselves They dont want to contribute toward paying for anything that does not directly help them. THey do not want to acknowledge their selfishness, so they concoct a self-serving structure of rationalizations about freedom and fiscal conservatism and other bullshit, fooling themselves first and lots of voters too. But the basic pattern is: cut my taxes, defund anything that is not immediately in service to me, screw everyone else. They then simply refuse to understand anything that interferes with their self-serving delusions and call it standing on principle. Not the REAL principle they represent (selfishness), but the highfalutin’ principle they pretend to stand for.
So it is pointless to speculate on whether they actually understand anything or not etc. They will never do or believe anything except what is in service to their desire to disguise their selfisheness from themselves and everyone else.
I think that a certain percentage of the Republicans in this nation what to use the threat of default as a means of forcing the defunding of the government programs hey do not support, those being programs for which they cannot see any direct benefit for themselves at this time.
The fundamental philosophy is selfishness. They want tax cuts for themselves They dont want to contribute toward paying for anything that does not directly help them. THey do not want to acknowledge their selfishness, so they concoct a self-serving structure of rationalizations about freedom and fiscal conservatism and other bullshit, fooling themselves first and lots of voters too. But the basic pattern is: cut my taxes, defund anything that is not immediately in service to me, screw everyone else. They then simply refuse to understand anything that interferes with their self-serving delusions and call it standing on principle. Not the REAL principle they represent (selfishness), but the highfalutin’ principle they pretend to stand for.
So it is pointless to speculate on whether they actually understand anything or not etc. They will never do or believe anything except what is in service to their desire to disguise their selfisheness from themselves and everyone else.
Count:
these people are dangerous and should be fucking assassinated
OUT OF LINE, COUNT.
This kind of talk is dangerous to the blog, reprehensible, and drives away people who might otherwise want to read or comment. Apologize and put a sock in it.
Count:
these people are dangerous and should be fucking assassinated
OUT OF LINE, COUNT.
This kind of talk is dangerous to the blog, reprehensible, and drives away people who might otherwise want to read or comment. Apologize and put a sock in it.
I request a few hours to have time to summon up the sincerity for an apology.
Thank you.
I request a few hours to have time to summon up the sincerity for an apology.
Thank you.
Or Marty, not to generalize, thinks that if one side says we’ll pass a 18 month extension and the other side says no we won’t vote for that and neither side gives in then neither side cares about the damage to the world economy and most of the discussion on this thread is bs. Both sides take us to the edge every time. And the GOP mostly gives in.
And once again Doc I will discuss something with you when you don’t start with, look stupid. Every one here is discussing the construct called the debt ceiling but somehow I don’t know what it is?
Two words, posting rules.
Or Marty, not to generalize, thinks that if one side says we’ll pass a 18 month extension and the other side says no we won’t vote for that and neither side gives in then neither side cares about the damage to the world economy and most of the discussion on this thread is bs. Both sides take us to the edge every time. And the GOP mostly gives in.
And once again Doc I will discuss something with you when you don’t start with, look stupid. Every one here is discussing the construct called the debt ceiling but somehow I don’t know what it is?
Two words, posting rules.
OK, Marty, I’ll accept that you do know what the debt ceiling is. But then I can’t see why you consider that stiffing our creditors, and those who have provided goods and services based on our promises (contracts, actually) to pay, is not just acceptable but somehow virtuous.
I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t act that way in your personal life. So why are you willing to act that way collectively? What am I missing here?
OK, Marty, I’ll accept that you do know what the debt ceiling is. But then I can’t see why you consider that stiffing our creditors, and those who have provided goods and services based on our promises (contracts, actually) to pay, is not just acceptable but somehow virtuous.
I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t act that way in your personal life. So why are you willing to act that way collectively? What am I missing here?
I would love for you to point out anywhere I said we should stiff anyone.
What I said is getting rid of the debt ceiling is stupid, it is the only visible sign that we continue to spend more than we take in providing some level of accountability.
I also said that pretending the GOP is the only side using the default as leverage is absurd.
I feel so good inside that you accept that I understand not only the concept of a statutory limit on Treasury borrowing, which I think debt ceiling pretty well describes btw, and the spending authority of the House. Gosh that’s swell.
I would love for you to point out anywhere I said we should stiff anyone.
What I said is getting rid of the debt ceiling is stupid, it is the only visible sign that we continue to spend more than we take in providing some level of accountability.
I also said that pretending the GOP is the only side using the default as leverage is absurd.
I feel so good inside that you accept that I understand not only the concept of a statutory limit on Treasury borrowing, which I think debt ceiling pretty well describes btw, and the spending authority of the House. Gosh that’s swell.
I stand corrected. (And pleased that you feel all warm and fuzzy. My day is complete.)
What, then, is the point of the debt ceiling? It obviously doesn’t motivate Congress to reduce spending. What has it actually accomplished (other than provide posturing opportunities; I’ll freely concede that it does that)? Who has been held accountable in any meaningful sense?
And, if actually invoked rather than just being a (no longer credible, if it ever was) threat, what it does is exactly stiff creditors.
I stand corrected. (And pleased that you feel all warm and fuzzy. My day is complete.)
What, then, is the point of the debt ceiling? It obviously doesn’t motivate Congress to reduce spending. What has it actually accomplished (other than provide posturing opportunities; I’ll freely concede that it does that)? Who has been held accountable in any meaningful sense?
And, if actually invoked rather than just being a (no longer credible, if it ever was) threat, what it does is exactly stiff creditors.
Well wj, I believe it has greatly furthered the visibility and discussion of how much we spend. I can’t draw a straight line from it to sequester, for example, but it never has to create default to have a limiting effect.
Well wj, I believe it has greatly furthered the visibility and discussion of how much we spend. I can’t draw a straight line from it to sequester, for example, but it never has to create default to have a limiting effect.
And, sorry lj, it makes perfect sense Trump wouldn’t want to deal with it going forward, you governing.
And, sorry lj, it makes perfect sense Trump wouldn’t want to deal with it going forward, you governing.
“I believe it has greatly furthered the visibility and discussion of how much we spend. ”
Yeah, credible death threats does make the discussion more visible, focused and urgent, it’s true.
But when the threats are against the US government and the global economy, that seems a bit extreme. Maybe just holding the Freedum Caucus™ at gunpoint? Could work.
“I believe it has greatly furthered the visibility and discussion of how much we spend. ”
Yeah, credible death threats does make the discussion more visible, focused and urgent, it’s true.
But when the threats are against the US government and the global economy, that seems a bit extreme. Maybe just holding the Freedum Caucus™ at gunpoint? Could work.
I believe it has greatly furthered the visibility and discussion of how much we spend.
The first couple of times, maybe. But at this point, about the only thing anyone sees is people who would destroy the country in order to get their way.
That may not be the message that they intend to send. But outside the ranks of those who already agree with them and so don’t need persuading, that’s the message that is received. If people perceive you as throwing tantrums like a 4 year old (no offense to 4 year olds), the merits of your position become lost. Even with those who otherwise might be persuadeable.
I believe it has greatly furthered the visibility and discussion of how much we spend.
The first couple of times, maybe. But at this point, about the only thing anyone sees is people who would destroy the country in order to get their way.
That may not be the message that they intend to send. But outside the ranks of those who already agree with them and so don’t need persuading, that’s the message that is received. If people perceive you as throwing tantrums like a 4 year old (no offense to 4 year olds), the merits of your position become lost. Even with those who otherwise might be persuadeable.
Well, we’re talking about it and we sure as he’ll aren’t taking about a budget. *shrug*
Well, we’re talking about it and we sure as he’ll aren’t taking about a budget. *shrug*
Marty, don’t you have “assets” in FL?
Marty, don’t you have “assets” in FL?
people don’t want to give up the stuff they like.
people don’t want to pay for the stuff they don’t like.
sometimes they don’t want to pay for the stuff they *do* like.
so, we don’t raise enough revenue to pay for what we commit to spending.
sometimes that’s actually the right thing to do. sometimes we do it because we can get away with it and nobody wants to bite the bullet and axe programs that somebody, somewhere likes. or, raise taxes to fund programs that somebody, somewhere likes.
if there’s an example of a debt ceiling or similar mechanism overriding the dynamic I’ve just outlined, I’m unaware of it.
so I don’t see the point of it. it’s a bunch of people who want to (a) spend money we don’t have and (b) still claim to be “fiscally responsible” posturing for the folks back home.
if you commit to spending the money, you have to fund it. you can spend less (next time), or raise taxes, or borrow.
borrowing is the path of least resistance, plus as others have noted, it has a well-heeled fan club of its own. so that’s what we tend to do.
people don’t want to give up the stuff they like.
people don’t want to pay for the stuff they don’t like.
sometimes they don’t want to pay for the stuff they *do* like.
so, we don’t raise enough revenue to pay for what we commit to spending.
sometimes that’s actually the right thing to do. sometimes we do it because we can get away with it and nobody wants to bite the bullet and axe programs that somebody, somewhere likes. or, raise taxes to fund programs that somebody, somewhere likes.
if there’s an example of a debt ceiling or similar mechanism overriding the dynamic I’ve just outlined, I’m unaware of it.
so I don’t see the point of it. it’s a bunch of people who want to (a) spend money we don’t have and (b) still claim to be “fiscally responsible” posturing for the folks back home.
if you commit to spending the money, you have to fund it. you can spend less (next time), or raise taxes, or borrow.
borrowing is the path of least resistance, plus as others have noted, it has a well-heeled fan club of its own. so that’s what we tend to do.
Federal deficits have historically been the norm, not the exception.
The federal debt was only retired once, under Jackson. It did not go well.
Accountability? Gosh. We have these things called elections.
The political battle is, and always has been, about on what our federal government spends the money on, not the level.
The recent White House meeting was to discuss the length of the debt limit adjustment. Neither side was threatening financial armageddon. Because they cannot control their right flank, the GOP was in a weak position, and they caved.
It’s not the end of the world.
But yes, the whole idea of a “debt limit” is a silly anachronism. Fiscally, it has no meaning.
Federal deficits have historically been the norm, not the exception.
The federal debt was only retired once, under Jackson. It did not go well.
Accountability? Gosh. We have these things called elections.
The political battle is, and always has been, about on what our federal government spends the money on, not the level.
The recent White House meeting was to discuss the length of the debt limit adjustment. Neither side was threatening financial armageddon. Because they cannot control their right flank, the GOP was in a weak position, and they caved.
It’s not the end of the world.
But yes, the whole idea of a “debt limit” is a silly anachronism. Fiscally, it has no meaning.
So, what do people think about Amazon’s HQ2 request for proposals? A friend from Texas asserts that they’ve already picked Denver, wrote the RFP so that Denver would win, but are going through the motions to force Denver to put up incentives.
So, what do people think about Amazon’s HQ2 request for proposals? A friend from Texas asserts that they’ve already picked Denver, wrote the RFP so that Denver would win, but are going through the motions to force Denver to put up incentives.
Amazon’s HQ2 request for proposals
I hadn’t been paying attention, but wouldn’t it be cool to pick some outlier depressed area like Detroit, or Charleston, WV? Okay, Denver. Maybe that’s fine.
Amazon’s HQ2 request for proposals
I hadn’t been paying attention, but wouldn’t it be cool to pick some outlier depressed area like Detroit, or Charleston, WV? Okay, Denver. Maybe that’s fine.
OK, upon reflection, I apologize to all here and those thinking of being here for my threatening remarks at 12:53pm.
I put my unwashed foot in my mouth and Doc Science kindly advised me to wear hosiery on my feet for reasons of blogging hygiene, because obviously I don’t know where they’ve been.
I’d like to say I was playing a kind of reverse game of madlibs and what I really meant to write was that the offending parties should sit quietly under an apple tree on a balmy summer day so that a fruit the size and weight of a million anvils falling through the atmosphere of a Roadrunner cartoon on the planet Saturn will land on their collective heads and they may thus reflect on the gravity of THEIR mortal threats to the lives and futures of tens of millions of Americans, but that would be a fib.
In fact, indeed, it was I who cut down the cherry tree.
I’m sorry.
OK, upon reflection, I apologize to all here and those thinking of being here for my threatening remarks at 12:53pm.
I put my unwashed foot in my mouth and Doc Science kindly advised me to wear hosiery on my feet for reasons of blogging hygiene, because obviously I don’t know where they’ve been.
I’d like to say I was playing a kind of reverse game of madlibs and what I really meant to write was that the offending parties should sit quietly under an apple tree on a balmy summer day so that a fruit the size and weight of a million anvils falling through the atmosphere of a Roadrunner cartoon on the planet Saturn will land on their collective heads and they may thus reflect on the gravity of THEIR mortal threats to the lives and futures of tens of millions of Americans, but that would be a fib.
In fact, indeed, it was I who cut down the cherry tree.
I’m sorry.
As to Amazon bringing 50,000 jobs to Denver, they’ll have to bring the people too, given the happily low unemployment rate here.
It should be Amazon who incentivizes Denver, however, perhaps by building 50,000 units of residential housing so that the price of housing stock and my rent in particular doesn’t further bust through my and many others debt ceilings, which no one ever seems to consider.
Also, how about Amazon adding several more lines of mass transit, or worse, more lanes on the already choked commuter roads. Maybe they could give each one of their new employees a personal drone to suspend themselves from above the congestion for their morning and afternoon commute.
I expect National Review to run another article by McTX’s engineer, about whom more later (I was positively disposed to the guy’s opinions about Houston’s travails, but I’m still pondering) regarding his pet peeve … suburban sprawl, of which Denver is a mighty example.
This could be financed by either Amazon itself or by a tax surcharge on each new resident drawn to Denver by the Amazon bonanza, but we’re aren’t allowed to do that because Texas. (I half kid … maybe a third).
Yet another lane through the Eisenhower Tunnel, to and fro, for the snowbirds sure to arrive.
I prefer sapient’s location suggestions. Clearly, why not spread the wealth around a bit to the places that need it more than Denver does so that those folks can get off their butts, put down the opioids, and stop voting for ignoramuses.
How about Middletown, Ohio so urbane cowboy, or is it fake hillbilly, J.D. Vance’s friends and family get a piece of the action for a change and he can wax elegiacally about that.
As to Amazon bringing 50,000 jobs to Denver, they’ll have to bring the people too, given the happily low unemployment rate here.
It should be Amazon who incentivizes Denver, however, perhaps by building 50,000 units of residential housing so that the price of housing stock and my rent in particular doesn’t further bust through my and many others debt ceilings, which no one ever seems to consider.
Also, how about Amazon adding several more lines of mass transit, or worse, more lanes on the already choked commuter roads. Maybe they could give each one of their new employees a personal drone to suspend themselves from above the congestion for their morning and afternoon commute.
I expect National Review to run another article by McTX’s engineer, about whom more later (I was positively disposed to the guy’s opinions about Houston’s travails, but I’m still pondering) regarding his pet peeve … suburban sprawl, of which Denver is a mighty example.
This could be financed by either Amazon itself or by a tax surcharge on each new resident drawn to Denver by the Amazon bonanza, but we’re aren’t allowed to do that because Texas. (I half kid … maybe a third).
Yet another lane through the Eisenhower Tunnel, to and fro, for the snowbirds sure to arrive.
I prefer sapient’s location suggestions. Clearly, why not spread the wealth around a bit to the places that need it more than Denver does so that those folks can get off their butts, put down the opioids, and stop voting for ignoramuses.
How about Middletown, Ohio so urbane cowboy, or is it fake hillbilly, J.D. Vance’s friends and family get a piece of the action for a change and he can wax elegiacally about that.
I’m sorry.
Me too. Sorry that some people who are easily offended haven’t discovered cleek’s pie filter. It works!
I filter Marty and bob mcmanus. I peek at their comments though. Because I have to “peek” I’m reminded not to freak out. It’s been working pretty well, no? Folks, I’ve improved, you have to admit!
cleek’s pie filter™
Hope you have enjoyed this testimonial.
I’m sorry.
Me too. Sorry that some people who are easily offended haven’t discovered cleek’s pie filter. It works!
I filter Marty and bob mcmanus. I peek at their comments though. Because I have to “peek” I’m reminded not to freak out. It’s been working pretty well, no? Folks, I’ve improved, you have to admit!
cleek’s pie filter™
Hope you have enjoyed this testimonial.
does the filter filter out “we’re aren’t”?
It occurs to me that a pie filter on Marty is like a federal debt ceiling, but I don’t believe in either.
does the filter filter out “we’re aren’t”?
It occurs to me that a pie filter on Marty is like a federal debt ceiling, but I don’t believe in either.
Marty, I can’t parse your comment, but it seems to have some notion that I could be elected co-president with Trump and he would be upset with the way I govern?
Of course, the idea that Trump was elected and then gets to tear down everything makes perfect sense to me, that’s why every other president has done the same thing. Not.
I see we are now in phase two Marty, you toss out some poorly thought out metaphor, the great unmatched wash here picks it apart and then you come back and say ‘I didn’t mean that, I would never stiff my creditors’. Nevermind your presidential candidate of choice not only uses that as his go to business strategy in his personal life, he floated it as an idea for the US to do.
So don’t get all butthurt about everyone accusing you of wanting to stiff people, especially when Doc quotes the post. Here it is in case you didn’t click
This is the worst excuse I’ve ever heard, though the normal one. It’s like some kid running up his dad’s credit card and when the bill comes in shrugging. Oh well the money’s spent anyway.
In your metaphor, the role of ‘kid’ is anyone in government who takes responsibility and says ‘gee, maybe we need to take some steps to set up some shelters in Fla in case, god forbid, they get hit with a hurricane’. The problem you perceive is that here is no father to say ‘Damn kids, wasting my money on all your hair-brained schemes’.
You are like Bobby Jindal complaining that all the government does volcano monitoring. If you don’t like what your metaphors say about what you are thinking, stop using them.
Marty, I can’t parse your comment, but it seems to have some notion that I could be elected co-president with Trump and he would be upset with the way I govern?
Of course, the idea that Trump was elected and then gets to tear down everything makes perfect sense to me, that’s why every other president has done the same thing. Not.
I see we are now in phase two Marty, you toss out some poorly thought out metaphor, the great unmatched wash here picks it apart and then you come back and say ‘I didn’t mean that, I would never stiff my creditors’. Nevermind your presidential candidate of choice not only uses that as his go to business strategy in his personal life, he floated it as an idea for the US to do.
So don’t get all butthurt about everyone accusing you of wanting to stiff people, especially when Doc quotes the post. Here it is in case you didn’t click
This is the worst excuse I’ve ever heard, though the normal one. It’s like some kid running up his dad’s credit card and when the bill comes in shrugging. Oh well the money’s spent anyway.
In your metaphor, the role of ‘kid’ is anyone in government who takes responsibility and says ‘gee, maybe we need to take some steps to set up some shelters in Fla in case, god forbid, they get hit with a hurricane’. The problem you perceive is that here is no father to say ‘Damn kids, wasting my money on all your hair-brained schemes’.
You are like Bobby Jindal complaining that all the government does volcano monitoring. If you don’t like what your metaphors say about what you are thinking, stop using them.
I don’t believe in either.
To me, the pie filter means “read at your own peril”, in that the comment is there, but you have to do an extra click to make it appear. It’s actually a “trigger warning”. It’s perfect. But, yeah, it filters people who comment.
I don’t believe in either.
To me, the pie filter means “read at your own peril”, in that the comment is there, but you have to do an extra click to make it appear. It’s actually a “trigger warning”. It’s perfect. But, yeah, it filters people who comment.
Why would a walking, talking reason for trigger warnings like me be in favor of trigger warnings? 😉
Take your best shot.
Why would a walking, talking reason for trigger warnings like me be in favor of trigger warnings? 😉
Take your best shot.
Why would a walking, talking reason for trigger warnings like me be in favor of trigger warnings? 😉
Take your best shot.
You can come here and fight the Nazis anytime, Count.
Why would a walking, talking reason for trigger warnings like me be in favor of trigger warnings? 😉
Take your best shot.
You can come here and fight the Nazis anytime, Count.
…but wouldn’t it be cool to pick some outlier depressed area like Detroit, or Charleston, WV?
I downloaded the RFP and read through it, as well as the press release. I see why my friend thinks it’s stacked in favor of Denver. The development office can pretty much just go down the list, both the specific items and the implied things, and check them off. The depressed cities are all going to be eliminated by the requirements that they have an existing software development talent base, and a demonstrated ability to attract tech workers. Amazon is clearly going to do a batch of voluntary transfers from HQ1 to HQ2, so they’ll pick someplace folks in Seattle will consider. That alone is likely to limit them to the West.
…but wouldn’t it be cool to pick some outlier depressed area like Detroit, or Charleston, WV?
I downloaded the RFP and read through it, as well as the press release. I see why my friend thinks it’s stacked in favor of Denver. The development office can pretty much just go down the list, both the specific items and the implied things, and check them off. The depressed cities are all going to be eliminated by the requirements that they have an existing software development talent base, and a demonstrated ability to attract tech workers. Amazon is clearly going to do a batch of voluntary transfers from HQ1 to HQ2, so they’ll pick someplace folks in Seattle will consider. That alone is likely to limit them to the West.
I prefer sapient’s location suggestions. Clearly, why not spread the wealth around a bit to the places that need it more than Denver does so that those folks can get off their butts, put down the opioids, and stop voting for ignoramuses.
I think there are a couple of factors here. First, of course, is the fact that a place with a depressed economy won’t be able to offer “incentives” (aka bribes) to the company to locate there. But the second has to do with getting staff. And that may actually be more critical.
While some staff can be hired locally (probably with some training), a lot will have to be people who already have the required skills. Who must be persuaded to move there. Some places are already attractive. Some are basically neutral.
Some, fairly or not, have sufficiently bad reputations that skilled staff will be reluctant to go there. It’s not an impossible sell, but it takes work. And, probably, big raises — without reference to the lower cost of living.
Maybe a company is feeling benevolent. Maybe they can get incentives from somewhere other than the (impoverished) local government. But chances are, they won’t.
I prefer sapient’s location suggestions. Clearly, why not spread the wealth around a bit to the places that need it more than Denver does so that those folks can get off their butts, put down the opioids, and stop voting for ignoramuses.
I think there are a couple of factors here. First, of course, is the fact that a place with a depressed economy won’t be able to offer “incentives” (aka bribes) to the company to locate there. But the second has to do with getting staff. And that may actually be more critical.
While some staff can be hired locally (probably with some training), a lot will have to be people who already have the required skills. Who must be persuaded to move there. Some places are already attractive. Some are basically neutral.
Some, fairly or not, have sufficiently bad reputations that skilled staff will be reluctant to go there. It’s not an impossible sell, but it takes work. And, probably, big raises — without reference to the lower cost of living.
Maybe a company is feeling benevolent. Maybe they can get incentives from somewhere other than the (impoverished) local government. But chances are, they won’t.
Maybe a company is feeling benevolent.
Amazon is clearly not: it’s all got a pronounced “tell us what you can do for us, not what we can do for you” flavor. Pretty clearly a case of Richard Florida’s current peeve about everything going to the cities that are already winning.
Maybe a company is feeling benevolent.
Amazon is clearly not: it’s all got a pronounced “tell us what you can do for us, not what we can do for you” flavor. Pretty clearly a case of Richard Florida’s current peeve about everything going to the cities that are already winning.
Since we are going with thread drift, holy crap
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.811420
Since we are going with thread drift, holy crap
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.811420
As to Amazon’s new headquarters, I think Houston just put themselves out of the running…
As to Amazon’s new headquarters, I think Houston just put themselves out of the running…
Count,
The people are coming here regardless, at 100K per year, and increasing. Drive down I-25 from RiNo on the north to E-470 on the south and count the construction cranes. The Northfield business park at Stapleton is going to fill up whether Amazon snatches it up or not. The Gold Strike light rail station on the Arvada-Denver border, 15 minutes from Union Station and Lodo, sits next to a couple hundred acres of semi-blighted stuff that’s eventually going to be a huge development.
The Constitution — or at least the Supreme Court’s reading of it — doesn’t let us put up walls to slow the flow to something manageable. Consider it a blessing that there’s a lot of infill and densification happening.
Count,
The people are coming here regardless, at 100K per year, and increasing. Drive down I-25 from RiNo on the north to E-470 on the south and count the construction cranes. The Northfield business park at Stapleton is going to fill up whether Amazon snatches it up or not. The Gold Strike light rail station on the Arvada-Denver border, 15 minutes from Union Station and Lodo, sits next to a couple hundred acres of semi-blighted stuff that’s eventually going to be a huge development.
The Constitution — or at least the Supreme Court’s reading of it — doesn’t let us put up walls to slow the flow to something manageable. Consider it a blessing that there’s a lot of infill and densification happening.
Thanks, Michael.
I came here too, 40 years ago.
I don’t want to build a wall.
I want Amazon to pay us, or at least not demand freebies, and say thank you. I say that as a shareholder of Amazon.
I want them to hire Dreamers if they come here.
I want the Tabor Amendment dismantled to allow
government to govern.
I want the prisons emptied of those who don’t deserve to be there, but only to make room again for Douglas Bruce and his big mouth:
http://www.denverpost.com/2017/07/05/douglas-bruce-missing-girl-colorado-springs/
Thanks, Michael.
I came here too, 40 years ago.
I don’t want to build a wall.
I want Amazon to pay us, or at least not demand freebies, and say thank you. I say that as a shareholder of Amazon.
I want them to hire Dreamers if they come here.
I want the Tabor Amendment dismantled to allow
government to govern.
I want the prisons emptied of those who don’t deserve to be there, but only to make room again for Douglas Bruce and his big mouth:
http://www.denverpost.com/2017/07/05/douglas-bruce-missing-girl-colorado-springs/
lj, Only comment I made to you was an apolgy for two comments in a row. As for the rest, my analogy was a comment on an earlier analogy. Nothing in anything I wrote implued we should not pay.
In your construct, we are now in phase 2 lj. Let’s put words in Marty’s mouth to somehow justify my criticism. Because he just needs to be wrong.
lj, Only comment I made to you was an apolgy for two comments in a row. As for the rest, my analogy was a comment on an earlier analogy. Nothing in anything I wrote implued we should not pay.
In your construct, we are now in phase 2 lj. Let’s put words in Marty’s mouth to somehow justify my criticism. Because he just needs to be wrong.
lj, whatever your beef with Marty, it’s unfair to call Trump his presidential candidate of choice (I assume this is what you meant?) It’s perfectly possible to criticise, and insult if that’s one’s intention, without resorting to that level of calumny!
lj, whatever your beef with Marty, it’s unfair to call Trump his presidential candidate of choice (I assume this is what you meant?) It’s perfectly possible to criticise, and insult if that’s one’s intention, without resorting to that level of calumny!
Jeez, lj, your Netanyahu link maybe could use a trigger warning. WTF?
Throw this in the hopper too:
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.810780
Jeez, lj, your Netanyahu link maybe could use a trigger warning. WTF?
Throw this in the hopper too:
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.810780
I disagree, but I’m in a pretty foul mood, so factor that in. Marty has made any number of claims that it is the liberals that are preventing Trump from having a free hand. I can pull up the comments. Marty’s disposition towards both HRC and Obama makes Trump Marty’s default candidate.
Marty, I know the game. Make oblique comments that, when called on, are fuzzy enough that you can get all bent out of shape. Citing posting rules? An ‘analogy of an analogy’? Pathetic.
I’m sympathetic that you are not in the majority here and people tend to gang up on you (hey, I’m a liberal, that’s what we do). I’d be a lot more sympathetic if you’d stop playing the troll.
I disagree, but I’m in a pretty foul mood, so factor that in. Marty has made any number of claims that it is the liberals that are preventing Trump from having a free hand. I can pull up the comments. Marty’s disposition towards both HRC and Obama makes Trump Marty’s default candidate.
Marty, I know the game. Make oblique comments that, when called on, are fuzzy enough that you can get all bent out of shape. Citing posting rules? An ‘analogy of an analogy’? Pathetic.
I’m sympathetic that you are not in the majority here and people tend to gang up on you (hey, I’m a liberal, that’s what we do). I’d be a lot more sympathetic if you’d stop playing the troll.
It’s perfectly possible to criticise, and insult if that’s one’s intention, without resorting to that level of calumny!
This is when your British mindset doesn’t work. Of course, Trump was his candidate, and he’s been defending him ever since. Did he vote for Gary Johnson? Okay, well, we all know what that meant.
Yer so nice, GftNC.
It’s perfectly possible to criticise, and insult if that’s one’s intention, without resorting to that level of calumny!
This is when your British mindset doesn’t work. Of course, Trump was his candidate, and he’s been defending him ever since. Did he vote for Gary Johnson? Okay, well, we all know what that meant.
Yer so nice, GftNC.
This song goes out to Rush Limbaugh, sopping wet republican politicians in Texas and Florida, rump and putin, and the Netanyahu Israelis, all of whom are sucking on my dried-up tax paps:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adUd9izOcW0
This song goes out to Rush Limbaugh, sopping wet republican politicians in Texas and Florida, rump and putin, and the Netanyahu Israelis, all of whom are sucking on my dried-up tax paps:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adUd9izOcW0
What’s a Gary Johnson?
What’s a Gary Johnson?
I made no oblique comment. People don’t go to dinner and refuse to pay the bill. People mostly pay attention to their credit limit and don’t spend more than they can borrow. It isn’t unreasonable to hold Congress to that amount of common sense. Congress is acting like the kid, we are the parent. We’ll pay the bill but we should have a way to hold them accountable.
If you find that oblique well, your problem, ask for clarification, don’t assume you “know what I mean”. The posting rules comment goes directly to Doc never, ever, responding to me without stating or implying I am stupid. I am not the troll here.
I made no oblique comment. People don’t go to dinner and refuse to pay the bill. People mostly pay attention to their credit limit and don’t spend more than they can borrow. It isn’t unreasonable to hold Congress to that amount of common sense. Congress is acting like the kid, we are the parent. We’ll pay the bill but we should have a way to hold them accountable.
If you find that oblique well, your problem, ask for clarification, don’t assume you “know what I mean”. The posting rules comment goes directly to Doc never, ever, responding to me without stating or implying I am stupid. I am not the troll here.
sapient, i do have a house directly in the latest path of the storm. Everyone has evacuated safely. May or may not have an asset there Monday.
sapient, i do have a house directly in the latest path of the storm. Everyone has evacuated safely. May or may not have an asset there Monday.
What’s a leppo?
What’s a leppo?
May or may not have an asset there Monday.
What sorts of insurance? Inquiring minds want to know…
May or may not have an asset there Monday.
What sorts of insurance? Inquiring minds want to know…
Well you know, I hold on to the fact that much as I disagree with almost all of Marty’s views, and thought his particular criticisms of both Obama and HRC verged on insane, he did at least openly and volubly criticise and insult Trump in what I thought were appropriate terms. It is true that since the inauguration he has been somewhat of an apologist, although it has usually been in the predictable cause of blaming and insulting liberals, Dems and progressives. So his true attitude seems to me in doubt, and while it is, I personally think it unfair to call Trump his presidential candidate of choice. But each to his own, you are perfectly at liberty to interpret this as my gullibility or pollyanna-ishness.
Well you know, I hold on to the fact that much as I disagree with almost all of Marty’s views, and thought his particular criticisms of both Obama and HRC verged on insane, he did at least openly and volubly criticise and insult Trump in what I thought were appropriate terms. It is true that since the inauguration he has been somewhat of an apologist, although it has usually been in the predictable cause of blaming and insulting liberals, Dems and progressives. So his true attitude seems to me in doubt, and while it is, I personally think it unfair to call Trump his presidential candidate of choice. But each to his own, you are perfectly at liberty to interpret this as my gullibility or pollyanna-ishness.
Homeowners, some flood, hard to say what the flood insurance covers because they keep changing it. We’ll see. We are a mile in not counting the creeks, evac zone b, surge probably wont get there, 12″rain weve had before so its really if the wind takes off the roof.
Homeowners, some flood, hard to say what the flood insurance covers because they keep changing it. We’ll see. We are a mile in not counting the creeks, evac zone b, surge probably wont get there, 12″rain weve had before so its really if the wind takes off the roof.
Count,
Other than being a bit old, I would be damned near the median Colorado elected official. Moved here 30 years ago, a masters degree, worked for successful large corporation acquired by larger out-of-state company, a stint as a small business person, three years in a public-sector job, married, own a house in an inner-ring Denver suburb, two kids that went through Colorado public schools K-to-BA.
Count,
Other than being a bit old, I would be damned near the median Colorado elected official. Moved here 30 years ago, a masters degree, worked for successful large corporation acquired by larger out-of-state company, a stint as a small business person, three years in a public-sector job, married, own a house in an inner-ring Denver suburb, two kids that went through Colorado public schools K-to-BA.
Reducing this to the level of a household economy is stupid, but normal.
Doc pointed this out as well
http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2017/09/a-glimpse-of-sanity-open-thread.html?cid=6a00d834515c2369e201b8d2a883d6970c#comment-6a00d834515c2369e201b8d2a883d6970c
At least take some responsibility for your words. You think the debt ceiling is like a parent’s credit card limit. Can you explain to me how that is putting words in your mouth?
Reducing this to the level of a household economy is stupid, but normal.
Doc pointed this out as well
http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2017/09/a-glimpse-of-sanity-open-thread.html?cid=6a00d834515c2369e201b8d2a883d6970c#comment-6a00d834515c2369e201b8d2a883d6970c
At least take some responsibility for your words. You think the debt ceiling is like a parent’s credit card limit. Can you explain to me how that is putting words in your mouth?
It’s an analogy, you dontvthink it’s a good one ? Ok. I just used it again. I think it’s a fine analogy.
I didn’t say I didn’t use it. It has nothing to do with what I know about the debt ceiling and it’s a heck of a lot closer than going to a restaurant and not paying because surprise your credit card is full, which was the analogy I objected to.
Talk about trolling.
It’s an analogy, you dontvthink it’s a good one ? Ok. I just used it again. I think it’s a fine analogy.
I didn’t say I didn’t use it. It has nothing to do with what I know about the debt ceiling and it’s a heck of a lot closer than going to a restaurant and not paying because surprise your credit card is full, which was the analogy I objected to.
Talk about trolling.
Thanks GftNC, I wonder if people who agree with his 3 month extension or desire to get rid of the debt ceiling can now be accused of being Trump apologists?
But, no, they can’t. Just because some number of his actions or decisions are acceptable to someone, it does not mean he was their choice or hidden preference.
From the very start I was clear there were long held Republican position s I would continue to support, it has nothing to do with supporting Trump.
Thanks GftNC, I wonder if people who agree with his 3 month extension or desire to get rid of the debt ceiling can now be accused of being Trump apologists?
But, no, they can’t. Just because some number of his actions or decisions are acceptable to someone, it does not mean he was their choice or hidden preference.
From the very start I was clear there were long held Republican position s I would continue to support, it has nothing to do with supporting Trump.
People mostly pay attention to their credit limit and don’t spend more than they can borrow. It isn’t unreasonable to hold Congress to that amount of common sense.
It’s a theory. Once, it might even have been a reasonable theory. But can you say with a straight face that there’s any evidence that things have worked out that way?
People mostly pay attention to their credit limit and don’t spend more than they can borrow. It isn’t unreasonable to hold Congress to that amount of common sense.
It’s a theory. Once, it might even have been a reasonable theory. But can you say with a straight face that there’s any evidence that things have worked out that way?
The analogy of the constraints faced by a private person’s credit limit to federal debt and/or deficit spending in a fiat money system with a floating exchange rate does not make sense.
Therefore it is not, by any stretch of the imagination “common sense” in any way, shape, or form.
The analogy of the constraints faced by a private person’s credit limit to federal debt and/or deficit spending in a fiat money system with a floating exchange rate does not make sense.
Therefore it is not, by any stretch of the imagination “common sense” in any way, shape, or form.
wj, What I can say is that the assumption that it has is as valid as the assumption it hasnt. There is a constant discussion about deficits and debt that is heightened every time we go through this exercise. It creates awareness, if not a real understanding.
wj, What I can say is that the assumption that it has is as valid as the assumption it hasnt. There is a constant discussion about deficits and debt that is heightened every time we go through this exercise. It creates awareness, if not a real understanding.
can now be accused of being Trump apologists?
I can try. I believe they are.
Imagine Trump as umm, Tojo, maintaining the comfort stations and biochemical attacks and demanding soldiers live off the land…or the other guy… and negotiating on a trivial budget process?
Are you saying, well, Trump isn’t really that bad? Saying so says everything necessary, just like negotiating with Obama, some things Clinton did I didn’t like, we disagree here and there but we can do bidness.
Nothing will normalize this maniac more than a bipartisan deal.
Working within the system legitimates the system, the system that inaugurated and maintains Trump.
Fantasies of reform, utopian or teleological dreams that have no basis in reality, like ending the electoral college, also support the existing real system as it is.
There’s more, there’s always more.
can now be accused of being Trump apologists?
I can try. I believe they are.
Imagine Trump as umm, Tojo, maintaining the comfort stations and biochemical attacks and demanding soldiers live off the land…or the other guy… and negotiating on a trivial budget process?
Are you saying, well, Trump isn’t really that bad? Saying so says everything necessary, just like negotiating with Obama, some things Clinton did I didn’t like, we disagree here and there but we can do bidness.
Nothing will normalize this maniac more than a bipartisan deal.
Working within the system legitimates the system, the system that inaugurated and maintains Trump.
Fantasies of reform, utopian or teleological dreams that have no basis in reality, like ending the electoral college, also support the existing real system as it is.
There’s more, there’s always more.
sapient, i do have a house directly in the latest path of the storm. Everyone has evacuated safely. May or may not have an asset there Monday.
I’m glad you’re not there. Wish you well.
sapient, i do have a house directly in the latest path of the storm. Everyone has evacuated safely. May or may not have an asset there Monday.
I’m glad you’re not there. Wish you well.
In a common sense discussion they can be discussed in analogous terms. Certainly there are differences, but the conceptual underpinnings of not spending more than you bring in are pretty much the same.
Except if you assume there is no limit to the amount of money a government has, which has been disproven over and over. Just print more has failed pretty much every country that tried it.
But even given that variable, there is a limit to the level of debt that can be supported without negative interest rate impacts, which will increase the deficits significantly. So yes, you can for simple conceptual discussions compare the two, but yes the US can print more money and I can’t. Up to a point.
It would be easier if we quit pretending that we borrow money from ourselves I suppose.
In a common sense discussion they can be discussed in analogous terms. Certainly there are differences, but the conceptual underpinnings of not spending more than you bring in are pretty much the same.
Except if you assume there is no limit to the amount of money a government has, which has been disproven over and over. Just print more has failed pretty much every country that tried it.
But even given that variable, there is a limit to the level of debt that can be supported without negative interest rate impacts, which will increase the deficits significantly. So yes, you can for simple conceptual discussions compare the two, but yes the US can print more money and I can’t. Up to a point.
It would be easier if we quit pretending that we borrow money from ourselves I suppose.
Thanks sapient, lots of arrangements, now nothing to do until it’s past.
Thanks sapient, lots of arrangements, now nothing to do until it’s past.
It would be easier if we quit pretending that we borrow money from ourselves I suppose.
On this we agree. The government need only to buy stuff. When they try to buy too much stuff (all other things being equal) you might have a problem.
The problem for your position is this: Where are these rising interest rates you warn of? Where is this inflation?
That’s just for starters.
It would be easier if we quit pretending that we borrow money from ourselves I suppose.
On this we agree. The government need only to buy stuff. When they try to buy too much stuff (all other things being equal) you might have a problem.
The problem for your position is this: Where are these rising interest rates you warn of? Where is this inflation?
That’s just for starters.
but the conceptual underpinnings of not spending more than you bring in are pretty much the same.
Under what conditions? That is one point where your analogy breaks down. Are you saying the budget should always be “in balance”? What about conditions of crashing demand (cf depressions/recessions)?
but the conceptual underpinnings of not spending more than you bring in are pretty much the same.
Under what conditions? That is one point where your analogy breaks down. Are you saying the budget should always be “in balance”? What about conditions of crashing demand (cf depressions/recessions)?
Actually both of those are interesting questions that are about the extra inputs to the government calculation.
The answer on the interest rates is a standard supply and demand impact. Lots of people want a secure place to lend money and in the short term, maybe a decade more, maybe not, the US is still able to place all of its debt at these rates. Assuming that will last forever seems as foolish as ignoring climate change. Whistling by the graveyard.
Second, most people at some point carry debt to finance things. The wealthy tend to carry debt to maintain a relationship with a lender and keep their principal in other invrmestments, companies pay fees to carry credit lines for the same reason.
The US should plan to carry some level of debt to satisfy all those things plus provide a secure investment vehicle for the people who prefer that vehicle. Like Apple they can certainly have debt and a surplus at the same time. Which would, of course, preclude the need to raise the debt ceiling.
Actually both of those are interesting questions that are about the extra inputs to the government calculation.
The answer on the interest rates is a standard supply and demand impact. Lots of people want a secure place to lend money and in the short term, maybe a decade more, maybe not, the US is still able to place all of its debt at these rates. Assuming that will last forever seems as foolish as ignoring climate change. Whistling by the graveyard.
Second, most people at some point carry debt to finance things. The wealthy tend to carry debt to maintain a relationship with a lender and keep their principal in other invrmestments, companies pay fees to carry credit lines for the same reason.
The US should plan to carry some level of debt to satisfy all those things plus provide a secure investment vehicle for the people who prefer that vehicle. Like Apple they can certainly have debt and a surplus at the same time. Which would, of course, preclude the need to raise the debt ceiling.
Btw, that’s mostly medium and long term debt. There is always a need for short term debt to manage cash flow.
Btw, that’s mostly medium and long term debt. There is always a need for short term debt to manage cash flow.
how is borrowing to cover operating costs not “debt to manage cash flow”?
your objection appears to be with congress’ practice of committing to spending more than they receive in revenue. which is a not-unreasonable objection, although there are various points of view.
and you appear to think that imposing a hard limit on borrowing is going to fix that.
i see no evidence that it has, or ever will fix that. and the consequence of it are either surgery-by-chainsaw things like the sequester, or stiffing creditors, or the feds run out of operational cash and shut down.
all of which seem profoundly counter-productive as cost-saving efforts.
you can’t go back in time and magically spend less money. so we have to find the least harmful way to address shortfalls.
we spend federal money on the things we do because people want them. we fail to fund it completely because people don’t want to pay taxes.
a debt ceiling is not going to fix that. it’s just going to reduce our options for addressing it to harmful ones.
how is borrowing to cover operating costs not “debt to manage cash flow”?
your objection appears to be with congress’ practice of committing to spending more than they receive in revenue. which is a not-unreasonable objection, although there are various points of view.
and you appear to think that imposing a hard limit on borrowing is going to fix that.
i see no evidence that it has, or ever will fix that. and the consequence of it are either surgery-by-chainsaw things like the sequester, or stiffing creditors, or the feds run out of operational cash and shut down.
all of which seem profoundly counter-productive as cost-saving efforts.
you can’t go back in time and magically spend less money. so we have to find the least harmful way to address shortfalls.
we spend federal money on the things we do because people want them. we fail to fund it completely because people don’t want to pay taxes.
a debt ceiling is not going to fix that. it’s just going to reduce our options for addressing it to harmful ones.
“Assuming that will last forever seems as foolish as ignoring climate change.”
Surely, we can ignore two things at once.
“Like Apple they can certainly have debt and a surplus at the same time. Which would, of course, preclude the need to raise the debt ceiling.”
Yes, but why can’t the government raise it’s prices …. taxes … like Apple does? Maybe it’s not like Apple.
I await the Apple executive suite inhabitants signing a pledge that an Iphone will never cost $1000 and shutting down the joint when it does, and then looking around and blaming poor socialists for the price hikes.
You would think an F-15 would be just as demand and price inelastic, is that the word, and eagerly shelled out for the buyers, us, as a new Iphone, given their relative importance for the survival of the social life of teenagers, whose parents blow their debt ceilings out of the water paying for.
Everyone, even Hilzoy and Obama, prefaces every utterance about taxes with the words, “nobody likes paying taxes”, and that phrase has remained inelastic since the two percent levied early last century.
I’ve never heard anyone say “nobody likes paying for an Iphone.”
Nobody likes paying for groceries. Nobody likes paying for health insurance. Nobody likes paying for gasoline.
Nobody, who is anybody, makes sense.
By the way, Marty, hope you get through Irma whole. I see she has settled down to a 3 overnight.
So, ipso facto, it’s certain now: no global warming. All of that bottled gin Limbaugh been stocking was just a scam, and I’m sure he’ll let us know in a few days how much of a scam.
Thank you, Cuba.
“Assuming that will last forever seems as foolish as ignoring climate change.”
Surely, we can ignore two things at once.
“Like Apple they can certainly have debt and a surplus at the same time. Which would, of course, preclude the need to raise the debt ceiling.”
Yes, but why can’t the government raise it’s prices …. taxes … like Apple does? Maybe it’s not like Apple.
I await the Apple executive suite inhabitants signing a pledge that an Iphone will never cost $1000 and shutting down the joint when it does, and then looking around and blaming poor socialists for the price hikes.
You would think an F-15 would be just as demand and price inelastic, is that the word, and eagerly shelled out for the buyers, us, as a new Iphone, given their relative importance for the survival of the social life of teenagers, whose parents blow their debt ceilings out of the water paying for.
Everyone, even Hilzoy and Obama, prefaces every utterance about taxes with the words, “nobody likes paying taxes”, and that phrase has remained inelastic since the two percent levied early last century.
I’ve never heard anyone say “nobody likes paying for an Iphone.”
Nobody likes paying for groceries. Nobody likes paying for health insurance. Nobody likes paying for gasoline.
Nobody, who is anybody, makes sense.
By the way, Marty, hope you get through Irma whole. I see she has settled down to a 3 overnight.
So, ipso facto, it’s certain now: no global warming. All of that bottled gin Limbaugh been stocking was just a scam, and I’m sure he’ll let us know in a few days how much of a scam.
Thank you, Cuba.
If we aren’t borrowing from ourselves, how come the interest on my Treasury bills is a line item in the Federal budget?
If we aren’t borrowing from ourselves, how come the interest on my Treasury bills is a line item in the Federal budget?
Well, it could likely be the first hurricane in a century to hit Tampa, the biggest Go hurricane ever, they assembled the most utility trucks in history and it makes Trumps FEMA and Rick Scot look competent. Only climate change could do all that, just ask Jose when he gets here.
Well, it could likely be the first hurricane in a century to hit Tampa, the biggest Go hurricane ever, they assembled the most utility trucks in history and it makes Trumps FEMA and Rick Scot look competent. Only climate change could do all that, just ask Jose when he gets here.
The Fed is carrying $2.4 Trillion in treasuries on its balance sheet. Interest is credited to the Treasury.
Dean Baker on the irrational fear of “too much” government borrowing:
http://cepr.net/blogs/beat-the-press/the-washington-post-is-worried-about-too-many-people-having-iphones-and-too-much-government-debt
Keep your head down, Marty. Jose looks to be lost in the Atlantic.
The Fed is carrying $2.4 Trillion in treasuries on its balance sheet. Interest is credited to the Treasury.
Dean Baker on the irrational fear of “too much” government borrowing:
http://cepr.net/blogs/beat-the-press/the-washington-post-is-worried-about-too-many-people-having-iphones-and-too-much-government-debt
Keep your head down, Marty. Jose looks to be lost in the Atlantic.
Get your smartphone fear here:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/has-the-smartphone-destroyed-a-generation/534198/
Get your smartphone fear here:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/has-the-smartphone-destroyed-a-generation/534198/
Lose your smartphone fear here:
Ignore The Bullshit: iPhones Are Not Destroying Teenagers: The same people who proclaimed a narcissism epidemic among millennials now say teens are being ruined by smartphones. They’re wrong.
Lose your smartphone fear here:
Ignore The Bullshit: iPhones Are Not Destroying Teenagers: The same people who proclaimed a narcissism epidemic among millennials now say teens are being ruined by smartphones. They’re wrong.
Yes, well I noticed the Atlantic, and by extension the writer of the article in the Atlantic, has an app available so the suicidal teenagers can access the magazine on their smartphones to learn about their unhappiness.
America, the civilization that became wealthy betting both sides of the market. We’ve got everything and everyone coming and going.
I’ve got to say on my recent trip to New York City, though, that it’s an odd sight to see all 127 people waiting for the A train on the subway platform, except me, peering at their smartphones in complete silence.
It was so eerie that I had to put down my book and take it all in.
True, they weren’t having sex with each other right there on the subway platform, like they were, say, in 1971 the last time I rode the subway on a regular basis, and I suspect they won’t any time soon, considering the new monopolizing preoccupation.
The writer of that last paragraph claims no coincidence with absolute facticity.
Yes, well I noticed the Atlantic, and by extension the writer of the article in the Atlantic, has an app available so the suicidal teenagers can access the magazine on their smartphones to learn about their unhappiness.
America, the civilization that became wealthy betting both sides of the market. We’ve got everything and everyone coming and going.
I’ve got to say on my recent trip to New York City, though, that it’s an odd sight to see all 127 people waiting for the A train on the subway platform, except me, peering at their smartphones in complete silence.
It was so eerie that I had to put down my book and take it all in.
True, they weren’t having sex with each other right there on the subway platform, like they were, say, in 1971 the last time I rode the subway on a regular basis, and I suspect they won’t any time soon, considering the new monopolizing preoccupation.
The writer of that last paragraph claims no coincidence with absolute facticity.
I recently took a hike in the foothills with a person of the opposite, contradictory gender, who also happens to be 30-plus years younger that I am, and she held her smartphone flat in her palm, like it was coaster I should set a drink on, and probably should have, and consulting it for the entire time over hill and dale.
Maybe she had a stock market hedge on, I don’t know.
I brought water and snacks.
I recently took a hike in the foothills with a person of the opposite, contradictory gender, who also happens to be 30-plus years younger that I am, and she held her smartphone flat in her palm, like it was coaster I should set a drink on, and probably should have, and consulting it for the entire time over hill and dale.
Maybe she had a stock market hedge on, I don’t know.
I brought water and snacks.
She seemed perfectly cheerful, but I felt vaguely unhappy.
She seemed perfectly cheerful, but I felt vaguely unhappy.
But this guy:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/08/21/trumps-business-of-corruption
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/9/10/1696286/-While-Obama-humanizes-undocumented-immigrants-and-calls-them-Americans-Trump-calls-them-vomit
But this guy:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/08/21/trumps-business-of-corruption
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/9/10/1696286/-While-Obama-humanizes-undocumented-immigrants-and-calls-them-Americans-Trump-calls-them-vomit
It’s clearly a harbinger of the apocalypse when people trade 98 green pieces of paper ($1 each!) for another, slightly fancier piece of paper that the US government will exchange for 100 green pieces of paper ($1 each!) in a few months.
Like I said, ‘way upthread, too many of us are in intellectual thrall to the notion that “money” is “a finite heap of shiny metal”; it skews people’s thinking, because it’s so very pervasive.
As for a ‘glimpse of sanity’, I think you can almost see it from here. Unless that glow on the horizon is something else.
It’s clearly a harbinger of the apocalypse when people trade 98 green pieces of paper ($1 each!) for another, slightly fancier piece of paper that the US government will exchange for 100 green pieces of paper ($1 each!) in a few months.
Like I said, ‘way upthread, too many of us are in intellectual thrall to the notion that “money” is “a finite heap of shiny metal”; it skews people’s thinking, because it’s so very pervasive.
As for a ‘glimpse of sanity’, I think you can almost see it from here. Unless that glow on the horizon is something else.
True, they weren’t having sex with each other right there on the subway platform, like they were, say, in 1971 the last time I rode the subway on a regular basis,
Specially for you, Count, by the most famous of the Liverpool poets:
True, they weren’t having sex with each other right there on the subway platform, like they were, say, in 1971 the last time I rode the subway on a regular basis,
Specially for you, Count, by the most famous of the Liverpool poets:
Thank you for that, GFTNC.
Now I have two reasons for wishing I was raised in Liverpool.
Just ordered a book, “The Liverpool Scene”, which includes some of their poets, on Amazon.
Thank you for that, GFTNC.
Now I have two reasons for wishing I was raised in Liverpool.
Just ordered a book, “The Liverpool Scene”, which includes some of their poets, on Amazon.
Gosh Count, I just looked it up on Amazon, and as soon as I clapped eyes on it I realised we had that book, and I haven’t seen it since the 70s. What a nostalgic frisson.
If you like it, you might also like
https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=The+Mersey+Sound&rh=n%3A266239%2Ck%3AThe+Mersey+Sound
which popularised those Liverpool poets who were considered the main ones, McGough, Patten and Henri. I think I read that this is still Penguin’s best-selling poetry anthology ever…
Gosh Count, I just looked it up on Amazon, and as soon as I clapped eyes on it I realised we had that book, and I haven’t seen it since the 70s. What a nostalgic frisson.
If you like it, you might also like
https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=The+Mersey+Sound&rh=n%3A266239%2Ck%3AThe+Mersey+Sound
which popularised those Liverpool poets who were considered the main ones, McGough, Patten and Henri. I think I read that this is still Penguin’s best-selling poetry anthology ever…
Honestly, Trump will probably screw us over on this like he always does everybody. But if it doesn’t involve giving up much, it’s worth a shot. At least it puts the idea on the table as a goal that sane members of Congress endorse, and that’s not nothing.
Honestly, Trump will probably screw us over on this like he always does everybody. But if it doesn’t involve giving up much, it’s worth a shot. At least it puts the idea on the table as a goal that sane members of Congress endorse, and that’s not nothing.
@Marty:
The problem with the debt limit is that it sounds like it’s a credit limit, but it’s not. It’s more like an arbitrary limit on making credit-card payments on money you already borrowed and spent. Refusing to raise it would make our financial situation worse, not better.
@Marty:
The problem with the debt limit is that it sounds like it’s a credit limit, but it’s not. It’s more like an arbitrary limit on making credit-card payments on money you already borrowed and spent. Refusing to raise it would make our financial situation worse, not better.
Matt, that’s been covered, it’s realky only different only in that the borrower can arbitrarily raise the limit. Oh and the downsides of default.
But it provides lots of visibility that a normal budget cycle doesnt. It’s a cap on borrowing to pay the bills, for Chrissake.
Every time it has to get raised lots of people realize we are still running constant deficits. That’s good.
Matt, that’s been covered, it’s realky only different only in that the borrower can arbitrarily raise the limit. Oh and the downsides of default.
But it provides lots of visibility that a normal budget cycle doesnt. It’s a cap on borrowing to pay the bills, for Chrissake.
Every time it has to get raised lots of people realize we are still running constant deficits. That’s good.
“But it provides lots of visibility that a normal budget cycle doesnt.”
So would having Marty holding a gun to Ryan’s head. You need a better reason than “provides lots of visibility”.
“But it provides lots of visibility that a normal budget cycle doesnt.”
So would having Marty holding a gun to Ryan’s head. You need a better reason than “provides lots of visibility”.
So would having Marty holding a gun to Ryan’s head. You need a better reason than “provides lots of visibility”.
These ObWi Marty troll-fests are something else. Who in their right mind doesn’t agree with extending the debt ceiling/eliminating the debt ceiling.
It’s weird that we give these people so much room, and probably what’s wrong with the country.
So would having Marty holding a gun to Ryan’s head. You need a better reason than “provides lots of visibility”.
These ObWi Marty troll-fests are something else. Who in their right mind doesn’t agree with extending the debt ceiling/eliminating the debt ceiling.
It’s weird that we give these people so much room, and probably what’s wrong with the country.
You need a better reason than “provides lots of visibility”.
As an old Keynesian, I respectfully disagree. Publicly remembering that either (a) we’re ignoring the part of the theory that says we ought to be paying off some of the debt during good times or (b) asserting that the economy is so weak despite the inflation and unemployment figures that we dare not pay off any of the debt is worth doing once a year or so.
Not fail to raise the ceiling; answer the question(s) about why we had to do it again, for the umpteenth year in a row.
You need a better reason than “provides lots of visibility”.
As an old Keynesian, I respectfully disagree. Publicly remembering that either (a) we’re ignoring the part of the theory that says we ought to be paying off some of the debt during good times or (b) asserting that the economy is so weak despite the inflation and unemployment figures that we dare not pay off any of the debt is worth doing once a year or so.
Not fail to raise the ceiling; answer the question(s) about why we had to do it again, for the umpteenth year in a row.
It’s weird that we give these people so much room, and probably what’s wrong with the country.
Yes, quoting myself, because I’m not done.
Doctor Science is completely right to call out the count for using the term “vermin”. But bob mcmanus loves himself some Lenin, Trotsky, Mao. Why aren’t people pushing back on that? That ideology murdered millions of innocent people. What if [commenter] championed Hitler. Would people be saying “He has a point.” Hitler and Mussolini definitely had a point about the trains. Are we okay with saying, “they had a point”?
Some of us need to think harder about what’s acceptable. I’m kind of worried about what we’re forgetting in our own parents’ lives.
It’s weird that we give these people so much room, and probably what’s wrong with the country.
Yes, quoting myself, because I’m not done.
Doctor Science is completely right to call out the count for using the term “vermin”. But bob mcmanus loves himself some Lenin, Trotsky, Mao. Why aren’t people pushing back on that? That ideology murdered millions of innocent people. What if [commenter] championed Hitler. Would people be saying “He has a point.” Hitler and Mussolini definitely had a point about the trains. Are we okay with saying, “they had a point”?
Some of us need to think harder about what’s acceptable. I’m kind of worried about what we’re forgetting in our own parents’ lives.
Thanks, Michael Cain, for your voice of reason. But I have to ask, yet again, why are we even entertaining these crazy ideas?
Thanks, Michael Cain, for your voice of reason. But I have to ask, yet again, why are we even entertaining these crazy ideas?
Well sapient we also had Joe McCarthy, is that the level of not putting up with people that disagree with you that you’re supporting?
Well sapient we also had Joe McCarthy, is that the level of not putting up with people that disagree with you that you’re supporting?
Please, friends, read this.
Please, friends, read this.
But bob mcmanus loves himself some Lenin, Trotsky, Mao. Why aren’t people pushing back on that?
I can’t speak for others, but I’m not pushing back because it is such a self-evidently ludicrous view that either
1) it is merely an exercise in trolling, or
2) the person holding it is impervious to trivia like facts and reality.
In neither case is it worth wasting time and effort on.
But bob mcmanus loves himself some Lenin, Trotsky, Mao. Why aren’t people pushing back on that?
I can’t speak for others, but I’m not pushing back because it is such a self-evidently ludicrous view that either
1) it is merely an exercise in trolling, or
2) the person holding it is impervious to trivia like facts and reality.
In neither case is it worth wasting time and effort on.
Well sapient we also had Joe McCarthy, is that the level of not putting up with people that disagree with you that you’re supporting?
Not sure what you’re talking about, as per normal.
Well sapient we also had Joe McCarthy, is that the level of not putting up with people that disagree with you that you’re supporting?
Not sure what you’re talking about, as per normal.
Sapient, an interesting article. Unfortunately, this leapt out at me
Given that self control is not part of Trump’s repertoire, you have to ask: What is Plan B?
Sapient, an interesting article. Unfortunately, this leapt out at me
Given that self control is not part of Trump’s repertoire, you have to ask: What is Plan B?
Sapient at 8:44 makes a point I’ve been chewing on for some time. I don’t think Marty is even remotely comparable to espousing communism but the fact that so many here take Marty to task and blow right by McManus is really odd.
Sapient at 8:44 makes a point I’ve been chewing on for some time. I don’t think Marty is even remotely comparable to espousing communism but the fact that so many here take Marty to task and blow right by McManus is really odd.
and blow right by McManus is really odd.
Actually, they embrace McManus. I don’t get it.
and blow right by McManus is really odd.
Actually, they embrace McManus. I don’t get it.
wj, true. Not sure what Plan B is with Trump. It has to be our Plan B to get rid of Trump.
wj, true. Not sure what Plan B is with Trump. It has to be our Plan B to get rid of Trump.
So, McKinney, now that we’re on speaking terms:
Hoping that your law firm is doing some pro bono for DACA renewals. i know that we’ve had words, and I can’t remember the particulars, but you’re on the right side of this one, yes?
So, McKinney, now that we’re on speaking terms:
Hoping that your law firm is doing some pro bono for DACA renewals. i know that we’ve had words, and I can’t remember the particulars, but you’re on the right side of this one, yes?
Oh, and sorry for the repeated comments, but I read that Houston needs undocumented workers to rebuild. Hope your law firm is making it right for those folks to be hired and to live in peace, not harassed by ICE. Hope that you’re working on that (or your associates are). Peace.
Oh, and sorry for the repeated comments, but I read that Houston needs undocumented workers to rebuild. Hope your law firm is making it right for those folks to be hired and to live in peace, not harassed by ICE. Hope that you’re working on that (or your associates are). Peace.
Hey y’all, just cause he later got embarrassing to you and you conveniently disavowed, doesn’t mean that Hitler isn’t your guy. Elected in a democratic system, kept the banks and manufacturers intact and happy, wars of aggression like Korea, Iraq, and Libya, racism…liberal capitalism at its peak.
As is proved by Democrats gobbling the first shiny bauble Trump dangled at them, along with a little process wonkery. Liberals are fascists looking for guidance. Or a bribe.
Hey y’all, just cause he later got embarrassing to you and you conveniently disavowed, doesn’t mean that Hitler isn’t your guy. Elected in a democratic system, kept the banks and manufacturers intact and happy, wars of aggression like Korea, Iraq, and Libya, racism…liberal capitalism at its peak.
As is proved by Democrats gobbling the first shiny bauble Trump dangled at them, along with a little process wonkery. Liberals are fascists looking for guidance. Or a bribe.
What I said.
Back to the pie filter, mcmanus.
What I said.
Back to the pie filter, mcmanus.
McKinney, it’s like this. I think we argue with Marty precisely because we think he can be persuaded. Why argue with someone who is impervious? (The only reason I can see is to persuade other readers. And somehow I don’t see McManus’ positions garnering any converts here….)
McKinney, it’s like this. I think we argue with Marty precisely because we think he can be persuaded. Why argue with someone who is impervious? (The only reason I can see is to persuade other readers. And somehow I don’t see McManus’ positions garnering any converts here….)
And somehow I don’t see McManus’ positions garnering any converts here
wj, speaking as someone who has been banned: he is welcomed and embraced, whereas no one ever spoke up for me. He champions mass murderers. I’m sure that’s fine.
And somehow I don’t see McManus’ positions garnering any converts here
wj, speaking as someone who has been banned: he is welcomed and embraced, whereas no one ever spoke up for me. He champions mass murderers. I’m sure that’s fine.
McManus resonates w more than a few here. Sapient, my views on immigration and our border are too complex to address w an iPhone. Generally, I favor residency for people here 5 years or more. I don’t know where that puts me.
McManus resonates w more than a few here. Sapient, my views on immigration and our border are too complex to address w an iPhone. Generally, I favor residency for people here 5 years or more. I don’t know where that puts me.
McKinney, I know you’re a good guy. Check out the DACA initiatives – folks that need to renew before 10/5/2017. I’m pretty sure you and I are on the same side. At least that. As for Houston – y’all need people.
McKinney, I know you’re a good guy. Check out the DACA initiatives – folks that need to renew before 10/5/2017. I’m pretty sure you and I are on the same side. At least that. As for Houston – y’all need people.
For me, it comes down to this
-style-
McManus posts links, gives authors, and has a more literate style than Marty. Compare the average length of a Marty comment vs. a McManus comment.
-value-
I don’t care for McManus ‘burn it down now’ talk, but he points me to things I haven’t read. Marty has said that he gets all his info from Facebook. Maybe just a throwaway line, but I’ve seen nothing to dissuade me that it is not true. McManus is also interested in other things. I’ve never seen Marty talk about something he’s doing. His whole shtick for being here is to laugh at Democrats.
-rarity-
Speaking of Facebook, I can drop into my feed and have the discussions that Marty brings with any number of people, old HS classmates. Marty is not someone bringing something I had never seen. McManus on the other hand, it’s pretty rare to find someone taking the far far left position.
-intelligence
Marty’s first comment in this thread was based on the following argument. You idiots here got upset when the Republicans tried to shut down the government, but when the dems do it, you are happy, what a bunch of hypocrites. Somehow, because the dems engage in some short term politicizing with a president who has broken every possible norm he has come up against, they are at fault. Either Marty believes this, and he is an idiot, or he doesn’t, so he’s a troll. imho…
I wish McManus would discuss/debate more rather than go to the ‘well, you are part of the system, so you get what you deserve’, but you go with the commenters you have, not the ones you want.
For me, it comes down to this
-style-
McManus posts links, gives authors, and has a more literate style than Marty. Compare the average length of a Marty comment vs. a McManus comment.
-value-
I don’t care for McManus ‘burn it down now’ talk, but he points me to things I haven’t read. Marty has said that he gets all his info from Facebook. Maybe just a throwaway line, but I’ve seen nothing to dissuade me that it is not true. McManus is also interested in other things. I’ve never seen Marty talk about something he’s doing. His whole shtick for being here is to laugh at Democrats.
-rarity-
Speaking of Facebook, I can drop into my feed and have the discussions that Marty brings with any number of people, old HS classmates. Marty is not someone bringing something I had never seen. McManus on the other hand, it’s pretty rare to find someone taking the far far left position.
-intelligence
Marty’s first comment in this thread was based on the following argument. You idiots here got upset when the Republicans tried to shut down the government, but when the dems do it, you are happy, what a bunch of hypocrites. Somehow, because the dems engage in some short term politicizing with a president who has broken every possible norm he has come up against, they are at fault. Either Marty believes this, and he is an idiot, or he doesn’t, so he’s a troll. imho…
I wish McManus would discuss/debate more rather than go to the ‘well, you are part of the system, so you get what you deserve’, but you go with the commenters you have, not the ones you want.
What, do you think your civil evidenced well-reasoned arguments against the debt ceiling make you good citizens or good people?
Four years after Nanjing made world headlines the US was still selling steel to Japan to use in fighter planes. 80 years later the US is selling cluster bombs to Saudi Arabia to kill Yemeni children.
This is who you are and who you vote for, and I see absolutely no way that you are going to change by your own devices.
I actually expect the US of effing A to be the last country, the last people standing when the Food Wars of Climate change kill off 90% of the global population. The last 10% will be Americans, standing tall and proud on a mountain of skulls.
What, do you think your civil evidenced well-reasoned arguments against the debt ceiling make you good citizens or good people?
Four years after Nanjing made world headlines the US was still selling steel to Japan to use in fighter planes. 80 years later the US is selling cluster bombs to Saudi Arabia to kill Yemeni children.
This is who you are and who you vote for, and I see absolutely no way that you are going to change by your own devices.
I actually expect the US of effing A to be the last country, the last people standing when the Food Wars of Climate change kill off 90% of the global population. The last 10% will be Americans, standing tall and proud on a mountain of skulls.
Why aren’t people pushing back on that?
The strongest endorsement of McManus I’ve seen is “he has a point”. Which, if I’m not mistaken, was not an endorsement of killing people in their millions.
My own responses to McManus have basically been, I appreciate your point of view, I’m not interested in shooting people.
People “blow by” McManus because he’s the ObWi equivalent of the good old Communist Party office in Central Square in Cambridge MA. I mean no disrespect when I say that, it’s simply an observation about the urgency of the actual, tangible threat that is posed by Bob McManus’ comments here.
To be honest, it’s actually a shame that people “blow by” him because aside from the old-school school Leninist blarney, he has interesting things to say.
And I would, and have, said the same folks including Marty, McK, and old-timers like DaveC, Brett Bellmore, and even Brick Oven Bill. I even gave the alien space bat guy his props, as did we all, by and large.
If the scope of somebody’s dangerous machinations is talking on a blog, I’m just not that worked up about it.
As far as stuff like this:
Up your nose with a rubber hose.
As far as I can tell, McK’s participation here has evolved to one of waiting until he can find something to reinforce his beliefs that all of lefties are hypocrites and generally full of sh*t, and then trolling us all with that.
He’s like the old dude version of my Milo-loving niece and her husband.
“See! Liberals are the *real* fascists / racists / what have you”.
So, you know, whatever. We’re not your monkeys. If you have something of substance to contribute, all good. If your participation revolves around trolling the rest of us with stupid “gotchas!”, don’t be shocked if none of us give a crap.
sapient, you were not banned for your point of view, you were banned for how you addressed other individual people here.
Marty gets a ration of shit because he makes odd, often inscrutable, trollish comments, then takes another 50 posts to walk them back to whatever reasonable point he was originally trying to make. Frankly, I wish he’d go right for the long-form comment from the get, rather than leading with cryptic one-liners. More efficient for the rest of us, even if not for him.
FInally:
Generally, I favor residency for people here 5 years or more.
That’s lovely, you’re a great guy. Unfortunately that’s not the policy of the United States. WTF are you doing about it?
Anything? Nothing? Something?
At least get on the horn, or send somebody who does have the time and bandwidth to actually do something about it some money.
Why aren’t people pushing back on that?
The strongest endorsement of McManus I’ve seen is “he has a point”. Which, if I’m not mistaken, was not an endorsement of killing people in their millions.
My own responses to McManus have basically been, I appreciate your point of view, I’m not interested in shooting people.
People “blow by” McManus because he’s the ObWi equivalent of the good old Communist Party office in Central Square in Cambridge MA. I mean no disrespect when I say that, it’s simply an observation about the urgency of the actual, tangible threat that is posed by Bob McManus’ comments here.
To be honest, it’s actually a shame that people “blow by” him because aside from the old-school school Leninist blarney, he has interesting things to say.
And I would, and have, said the same folks including Marty, McK, and old-timers like DaveC, Brett Bellmore, and even Brick Oven Bill. I even gave the alien space bat guy his props, as did we all, by and large.
If the scope of somebody’s dangerous machinations is talking on a blog, I’m just not that worked up about it.
As far as stuff like this:
Up your nose with a rubber hose.
As far as I can tell, McK’s participation here has evolved to one of waiting until he can find something to reinforce his beliefs that all of lefties are hypocrites and generally full of sh*t, and then trolling us all with that.
He’s like the old dude version of my Milo-loving niece and her husband.
“See! Liberals are the *real* fascists / racists / what have you”.
So, you know, whatever. We’re not your monkeys. If you have something of substance to contribute, all good. If your participation revolves around trolling the rest of us with stupid “gotchas!”, don’t be shocked if none of us give a crap.
sapient, you were not banned for your point of view, you were banned for how you addressed other individual people here.
Marty gets a ration of shit because he makes odd, often inscrutable, trollish comments, then takes another 50 posts to walk them back to whatever reasonable point he was originally trying to make. Frankly, I wish he’d go right for the long-form comment from the get, rather than leading with cryptic one-liners. More efficient for the rest of us, even if not for him.
FInally:
Generally, I favor residency for people here 5 years or more.
That’s lovely, you’re a great guy. Unfortunately that’s not the policy of the United States. WTF are you doing about it?
Anything? Nothing? Something?
At least get on the horn, or send somebody who does have the time and bandwidth to actually do something about it some money.
Not fail to raise the ceiling; answer the question(s) about why we had to do it again, for the umpteenth year in a row.
If you are always going to raise it, why have it?
I think those questions ought to be answered when the budget is drawn up. I’m all for keeping people informed. But you don’t have to dance on the edge of a cliff holding a sign and shouting to do it.
In fact, I’d argue that the evidence is that the debt ceiling does not actually provide information. Too many people think that the way to reduce or limit spending is to refuse to raise it, when in fact they ought to be paying attention to the actual budget process. It provides a convenient distraction from that reality, hence achieving the opposite of spreading information.
Not fail to raise the ceiling; answer the question(s) about why we had to do it again, for the umpteenth year in a row.
If you are always going to raise it, why have it?
I think those questions ought to be answered when the budget is drawn up. I’m all for keeping people informed. But you don’t have to dance on the edge of a cliff holding a sign and shouting to do it.
In fact, I’d argue that the evidence is that the debt ceiling does not actually provide information. Too many people think that the way to reduce or limit spending is to refuse to raise it, when in fact they ought to be paying attention to the actual budget process. It provides a convenient distraction from that reality, hence achieving the opposite of spreading information.
McManus,
Fantasies of reform, utopian or teleological dreams that have no basis in reality, like ending the electoral college, also support the existing real system as it is.
You are accusing others? of fantasies of reform detached from reality?
McManus,
Fantasies of reform, utopian or teleological dreams that have no basis in reality, like ending the electoral college, also support the existing real system as it is.
You are accusing others? of fantasies of reform detached from reality?
First, what lj said at 10:10.
Second:
I actually expect the US of effing A to be the last country, the last people standing when the Food Wars of Climate change kill off 90% of the global population.
If you think this is not a point that deserves consideration, reflection, and action, then you’re not paying attention.
And if McManus says the only reasonable action is go shoot people (which I did not, BTW, actually read in his comment), you’re not obliged to have the same takeaway.
But ignoring the substance of what he said doesn’t make the reality go away.
95%, that’s crazy talk!! Fine. 1% of the population is 70 million people. Order of magnitude, that’s just a bit more than the population of the UK or France, or just over than twice the population of CA.
People are already fighting over water. With guns. Not here, we’re rich, which is sort of Bob’s point. But elsewhere, they are. It ain’t no joke.
First, what lj said at 10:10.
Second:
I actually expect the US of effing A to be the last country, the last people standing when the Food Wars of Climate change kill off 90% of the global population.
If you think this is not a point that deserves consideration, reflection, and action, then you’re not paying attention.
And if McManus says the only reasonable action is go shoot people (which I did not, BTW, actually read in his comment), you’re not obliged to have the same takeaway.
But ignoring the substance of what he said doesn’t make the reality go away.
95%, that’s crazy talk!! Fine. 1% of the population is 70 million people. Order of magnitude, that’s just a bit more than the population of the UK or France, or just over than twice the population of CA.
People are already fighting over water. With guns. Not here, we’re rich, which is sort of Bob’s point. But elsewhere, they are. It ain’t no joke.
which is sort of Bob’s point
What is bob’s solution?
sapient’s “point”: The world is f’d.
What is the solution?
The solution is working together to get stuff done. Sorry – Hillary. We don’t have that option now, so what is your [bob’s] plan? Great Leap Forward? I know some folks who lived through that. Want to discuss?
which is sort of Bob’s point
What is bob’s solution?
sapient’s “point”: The world is f’d.
What is the solution?
The solution is working together to get stuff done. Sorry – Hillary. We don’t have that option now, so what is your [bob’s] plan? Great Leap Forward? I know some folks who lived through that. Want to discuss?
Let’s talk about Mao. Do you know folks (our age, russell) who lived through that? I do.
Let’s discuss.
Let’s talk about Mao. Do you know folks (our age, russell) who lived through that? I do.
Let’s discuss.
Doctor Science is completely right to call out the count for using the term “vermin”.
FWIW –
Doc Science did not call out the Count for calling people “vermin”. Doc Science called out the Count for calling for the assassination of (R)’s.
Calling (R)’s vermin just doesn’t rock my boat. It’s on the same order as Marty calling Hilary a profoundly, world-historically evil person, or Obama a tyrant.
Calling for the assassination of (R)’s is miles outside the posting rules, is amazingly abrasive to folks who actually are (R)’s, and is basically not on.
The Count has been here for ages, longer than me, which is more than a decade at this point, and is a pretty well-loved guy for his intelligence, sense of humor, and history here.
It’s an ongoing issue for me, personally, exactly how to deal with someone who is kind of an institution here, but who blatantly and offensively violates the rules of engagement on a daily if not hourly basis.
Count – please stop talking about killing people. As should be glaringly obvious, nobody wants to ban you. You put us in a difficult position. It’s not fair to the folks with other points of view who do, in fact, keep it between the lines, when I’m sure there are occasions when they would really rather not. I would consider it a personal favor if you’d knock it off.
Doctor Science is completely right to call out the count for using the term “vermin”.
FWIW –
Doc Science did not call out the Count for calling people “vermin”. Doc Science called out the Count for calling for the assassination of (R)’s.
Calling (R)’s vermin just doesn’t rock my boat. It’s on the same order as Marty calling Hilary a profoundly, world-historically evil person, or Obama a tyrant.
Calling for the assassination of (R)’s is miles outside the posting rules, is amazingly abrasive to folks who actually are (R)’s, and is basically not on.
The Count has been here for ages, longer than me, which is more than a decade at this point, and is a pretty well-loved guy for his intelligence, sense of humor, and history here.
It’s an ongoing issue for me, personally, exactly how to deal with someone who is kind of an institution here, but who blatantly and offensively violates the rules of engagement on a daily if not hourly basis.
Count – please stop talking about killing people. As should be glaringly obvious, nobody wants to ban you. You put us in a difficult position. It’s not fair to the folks with other points of view who do, in fact, keep it between the lines, when I’m sure there are occasions when they would really rather not. I would consider it a personal favor if you’d knock it off.
Maybe russell, we should also talk about people who champion mass murderers. Just a thought. I know, saying that the Count says stuff about assassination, yeah, I agree, he shouldn’t do that. But should we embrace people who advocate for historical figures who murdered millions? I think not.
Maybe russell, we should also talk about people who champion mass murderers. Just a thought. I know, saying that the Count says stuff about assassination, yeah, I agree, he shouldn’t do that. But should we embrace people who advocate for historical figures who murdered millions? I think not.
What is bob’s solution?
Personally, I don’t insist that people present me with a solution before I will listen to their thoughts about a problem.
If the solutions were that obvious, the problems wouldn’t be problems.
Let’s talk about Mao.
Fine.
Mao’s dead. Were he alive, he could kiss my keister.
McManus’ comments here are not going to inspire anyone to Take Up Arms Against Their Imperial Capitalist Overlords. They are not. Not going to happen.
In that, McManus is utterly unlike the alt-rightists / KuKluxers / white supremacists of our present day. I worry about them. I don’t worry about McManus.
Bob McManus brings a perspective that widens my understanding of things. In doing so, he does not inspire or persuade me to kill anybody. I doubt he has ever killed anyone himself, and I doubt he is likely to do so.
So FWIW I’m OK with Bob McManus.
What is bob’s solution?
Personally, I don’t insist that people present me with a solution before I will listen to their thoughts about a problem.
If the solutions were that obvious, the problems wouldn’t be problems.
Let’s talk about Mao.
Fine.
Mao’s dead. Were he alive, he could kiss my keister.
McManus’ comments here are not going to inspire anyone to Take Up Arms Against Their Imperial Capitalist Overlords. They are not. Not going to happen.
In that, McManus is utterly unlike the alt-rightists / KuKluxers / white supremacists of our present day. I worry about them. I don’t worry about McManus.
Bob McManus brings a perspective that widens my understanding of things. In doing so, he does not inspire or persuade me to kill anybody. I doubt he has ever killed anyone himself, and I doubt he is likely to do so.
So FWIW I’m OK with Bob McManus.
So FWIW I’m OK with Bob McManus.
FWIW, I’m not OK.
Mao’s dead.
Think so? Go to China, a hugely more important country now (now that we’ve f’d ourselves with Trump) than we are. Check it out. Not dead at all.
McManus? If you’re in his burn it down, bullshit nihilist club, I’m really worried.
So FWIW I’m OK with Bob McManus.
FWIW, I’m not OK.
Mao’s dead.
Think so? Go to China, a hugely more important country now (now that we’ve f’d ourselves with Trump) than we are. Check it out. Not dead at all.
McManus? If you’re in his burn it down, bullshit nihilist club, I’m really worried.
But you know, what about my feelings, what set me off this time?
Well, after a week at CT, when Holbo the liberal Democrat and really good guy, was pushing the political philodophy book by Jacon Levy, arch-libertarian, and in near 1000 comments the Left couldn’t make their voices heard…
…the Democrats in Congress nuzzle a deal with Trump and the ObsWi commentariat thinks its great. And argue endlessly with Marty about it.
You remember, deals with Hitler and Konoe and Rhee and Pahlavi And El Salvador and Saddam and we all know the history…
…while embargoes and sanctions and low-level war with NK And Cuba and USSR…
Liberals and Democrats love to have intercourse, relations with fascists and the Right in all its forms and try to dismiss, ignore, and disappear anything to their left, in both macro global IR forms and micro blog comment sections and it pisses me the fuck off.
But you know, what about my feelings, what set me off this time?
Well, after a week at CT, when Holbo the liberal Democrat and really good guy, was pushing the political philodophy book by Jacon Levy, arch-libertarian, and in near 1000 comments the Left couldn’t make their voices heard…
…the Democrats in Congress nuzzle a deal with Trump and the ObsWi commentariat thinks its great. And argue endlessly with Marty about it.
You remember, deals with Hitler and Konoe and Rhee and Pahlavi And El Salvador and Saddam and we all know the history…
…while embargoes and sanctions and low-level war with NK And Cuba and USSR…
Liberals and Democrats love to have intercourse, relations with fascists and the Right in all its forms and try to dismiss, ignore, and disappear anything to their left, in both macro global IR forms and micro blog comment sections and it pisses me the fuck off.
Mao’s dead. Were he alive, he could kiss my keister.
russell, I’m not kidding. Read about people our age, who lived through the cultural revolution. Read again about Tiananmen Square. Then go to China and talk to the people our age. Or talk to their children who raised pigeons, hoping to maybe actually go to school and learn something and be doctors or something.
Tell me you don’t know people who went through that. If you don’t, you need to.
Mao’s dead. Were he alive, he could kiss my keister.
russell, I’m not kidding. Read about people our age, who lived through the cultural revolution. Read again about Tiananmen Square. Then go to China and talk to the people our age. Or talk to their children who raised pigeons, hoping to maybe actually go to school and learn something and be doctors or something.
Tell me you don’t know people who went through that. If you don’t, you need to.
“Marty has said that he gets all his info from Facebook”
Not ever. I have about 15 people on my FB feed and they know I do family and friends stuff.
What you don’t like is being called out for having one set of criteria for ideas you agree with and another for me. Me because you’ve trolled all the rest of the people you disagree with off the site.
Disagreeing with you is, in your words stupid or trolling.
It is interesting that when Trump does something you like it is ok to agree with him on that one thing. When he does something you dont like, to agree with him proves I was really for him all along. You call me a liar just about every time we interact.
You don’t like me, I get it. I’m ok with it. You’re can be pretty pompous. But to paraphrase JanieM it’s a blog, 90% of what’s on here is opinion. Mine is shaped as much by your arguments as any other input.
Bob is interesting, the count is interesting, I read russell first, then wj, hsh and GftNC to see if there is an actual discussion happening. Then sapient and cleek, i read you last if your comment is in a discussion I am interested in, which is rare.
And I could refriend my brother on fb and have every discussion that is had here, what you bring is as common as I can imagine.
Until November here was a more interesting discussion of those things.
“Marty has said that he gets all his info from Facebook”
Not ever. I have about 15 people on my FB feed and they know I do family and friends stuff.
What you don’t like is being called out for having one set of criteria for ideas you agree with and another for me. Me because you’ve trolled all the rest of the people you disagree with off the site.
Disagreeing with you is, in your words stupid or trolling.
It is interesting that when Trump does something you like it is ok to agree with him on that one thing. When he does something you dont like, to agree with him proves I was really for him all along. You call me a liar just about every time we interact.
You don’t like me, I get it. I’m ok with it. You’re can be pretty pompous. But to paraphrase JanieM it’s a blog, 90% of what’s on here is opinion. Mine is shaped as much by your arguments as any other input.
Bob is interesting, the count is interesting, I read russell first, then wj, hsh and GftNC to see if there is an actual discussion happening. Then sapient and cleek, i read you last if your comment is in a discussion I am interested in, which is rare.
And I could refriend my brother on fb and have every discussion that is had here, what you bring is as common as I can imagine.
Until November here was a more interesting discussion of those things.
Comes now mcmanus again, as a freaking cultural revolutionary. I’m checking out guns.
Comes now mcmanus again, as a freaking cultural revolutionary. I’m checking out guns.
Think so? Go to China
I don’t live in China.
It’s completely fine if you don’t care for McManus.
I feel very comfortable saying that nobody is going to read McManus’ comments on ObWi and go kill anybody.
McManus ain’t Mao.
Think so? Go to China
I don’t live in China.
It’s completely fine if you don’t care for McManus.
I feel very comfortable saying that nobody is going to read McManus’ comments on ObWi and go kill anybody.
McManus ain’t Mao.
McManus ain’t Mao.
Richard Spencer ain’t Hitler. He’s an asshole though. Just saying.
McManus ain’t Mao.
Richard Spencer ain’t Hitler. He’s an asshole though. Just saying.
This is who you are and who you vote for
Bob, I’m taking Japanese citizenship, and, after the recommended period, my US citizenship is going the way of all flesh. Where does that put me?
Yes, the US selling steel to Japan after Nanjing. How about IBM and the Holocaust?
http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/
Sometimes, this comes off (no matter who does it) as virtue signaling, I know this and you don’t so I’m a better person than you.
Disagreeing with you is, in your words stupid or trolling.
Marty, I’ve just said that I disagree with Bob, and I’ve said he’s not trolling. So your statement is false. I explained why I thought your comment was trolling and it wasn’t because I disagree with you, it was because what you said was transparently stupid. Figure out the difference might stand you in good stead, but don’t do it on my account, I could really care less. I’ve got things going on in my life that make my concern about whether you think I am pompous or not the absolute least of my concerns. I’m sorry that your home might not be there any more, but if that’s set you off on another round of you liberals are all hypocrites, don’t be surprised if you don’t get much sympathy.
Sapient, more pie filter please.
This is who you are and who you vote for
Bob, I’m taking Japanese citizenship, and, after the recommended period, my US citizenship is going the way of all flesh. Where does that put me?
Yes, the US selling steel to Japan after Nanjing. How about IBM and the Holocaust?
http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/
Sometimes, this comes off (no matter who does it) as virtue signaling, I know this and you don’t so I’m a better person than you.
Disagreeing with you is, in your words stupid or trolling.
Marty, I’ve just said that I disagree with Bob, and I’ve said he’s not trolling. So your statement is false. I explained why I thought your comment was trolling and it wasn’t because I disagree with you, it was because what you said was transparently stupid. Figure out the difference might stand you in good stead, but don’t do it on my account, I could really care less. I’ve got things going on in my life that make my concern about whether you think I am pompous or not the absolute least of my concerns. I’m sorry that your home might not be there any more, but if that’s set you off on another round of you liberals are all hypocrites, don’t be surprised if you don’t get much sympathy.
Sapient, more pie filter please.
Delurking to say I don’t care for Lenin, but some Leninists make good points.
https://www.amazon.com/Liberal-Defence-Murder-Richard-Seymour/dp/184467861X
Back to lurking.
Delurking to say I don’t care for Lenin, but some Leninists make good points.
https://www.amazon.com/Liberal-Defence-Murder-Richard-Seymour/dp/184467861X
Back to lurking.
Well, I did say one or the other, so we agree on that at least.
I admit the theme is repetitive, as is the hypocrisy of the Christian right, and the Freedom Caucus, and to a lesser extent all of us.
Most groups, or people,that hold themselves out as the judge of others ideas, motives and intent as evil inevitably find themselves looking in that mirror. The more strident and harsh that judgement the more certain they will fail their own test.
And the more certain they will find a way to deny it. IMHO.
Well, I did say one or the other, so we agree on that at least.
I admit the theme is repetitive, as is the hypocrisy of the Christian right, and the Freedom Caucus, and to a lesser extent all of us.
Most groups, or people,that hold themselves out as the judge of others ideas, motives and intent as evil inevitably find themselves looking in that mirror. The more strident and harsh that judgement the more certain they will fail their own test.
And the more certain they will find a way to deny it. IMHO.
the Democrats in Congress nuzzle a deal with Trump and the ObsWi commentariat thinks its great.
I’m not quite clear. Are you outraged at the substance of what was agreed? I note that you don’t (in this comment) speak to that.
Or are you just outraged at making a deal, any kind of deal, regardless of substance? In short, are you taking the position that purity is irretrievably lost by any contact with the outcaste? It does seem like very much a theological stance, if that’s where you’re at.
the Democrats in Congress nuzzle a deal with Trump and the ObsWi commentariat thinks its great.
I’m not quite clear. Are you outraged at the substance of what was agreed? I note that you don’t (in this comment) speak to that.
Or are you just outraged at making a deal, any kind of deal, regardless of substance? In short, are you taking the position that purity is irretrievably lost by any contact with the outcaste? It does seem like very much a theological stance, if that’s where you’re at.
Most groups, or people,that hold themselves out as the judge of others ideas, motives and intent as evil inevitably find themselves looking in that mirror. The more strident and harsh that judgement the more certain they will fail their own test.
Amen. Not to say that we shouldn’t call it out when we see it. But if we don’t recognize that it’s damn rare, we have a problem.
In other words, perhaps less freighted:
When bad things happen, given a choice of explanations between malice and stupidity, the smart bet is on stupidity. Not a certainty, but the odds-on favorite.
Most groups, or people,that hold themselves out as the judge of others ideas, motives and intent as evil inevitably find themselves looking in that mirror. The more strident and harsh that judgement the more certain they will fail their own test.
Amen. Not to say that we shouldn’t call it out when we see it. But if we don’t recognize that it’s damn rare, we have a problem.
In other words, perhaps less freighted:
When bad things happen, given a choice of explanations between malice and stupidity, the smart bet is on stupidity. Not a certainty, but the odds-on favorite.
Marty
This is not to run you off or to make you feel like a pariah, but
Not ever. I have about 15 people on my FB feed and they know I do family and friends stuff.
cf
http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2016/07/kaines-big-advantage-is-with-republican-women.html?cid=6a00d834515c2369e201b8d20c1ab4970c#comment-6a00d834515c2369e201b8d20c1ab4970c
Again, as I said, maybe this was a joke that fell flat. That’s cool, I’ve done that many times. Alternatively, maybe you were just having us on. Being from Mississippi, the notion of making Yankee think you is stupid so they underestimate you is not uncommon. But if it is the latter, I’d really ask you to not do that. I realize that you (and McT) are minorities here and I certainly don’t want to run you off. But if we can’t really believe that what you are saying is honest, you are going to get what you deserve.
Marty
This is not to run you off or to make you feel like a pariah, but
Not ever. I have about 15 people on my FB feed and they know I do family and friends stuff.
cf
http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2016/07/kaines-big-advantage-is-with-republican-women.html?cid=6a00d834515c2369e201b8d20c1ab4970c#comment-6a00d834515c2369e201b8d20c1ab4970c
Again, as I said, maybe this was a joke that fell flat. That’s cool, I’ve done that many times. Alternatively, maybe you were just having us on. Being from Mississippi, the notion of making Yankee think you is stupid so they underestimate you is not uncommon. But if it is the latter, I’d really ask you to not do that. I realize that you (and McT) are minorities here and I certainly don’t want to run you off. But if we can’t really believe that what you are saying is honest, you are going to get what you deserve.
Every time it has to get raised lots of people realize we are still running constant deficits. That’s good.
How good is it? There’s no sign at all that it’s constrained government deficits. It’s possible that the ability to make theatrical objections to raising the ceiling makes legislators more relaxed about voting for spending increases or tax cuts.
How bad is it? The US treasury has about $20 trillion of debt securities outstanding. Some of that is held by the fed, so call it $17.5 trillion net. If, on average, the debt has been issued with an extra yield of 0.1% to compensate investors for the risk that one day the brinkmanship will go too far, that costs the US $17.5bn a year.
Do you think that’s good value Marty?
Every time it has to get raised lots of people realize we are still running constant deficits. That’s good.
How good is it? There’s no sign at all that it’s constrained government deficits. It’s possible that the ability to make theatrical objections to raising the ceiling makes legislators more relaxed about voting for spending increases or tax cuts.
How bad is it? The US treasury has about $20 trillion of debt securities outstanding. Some of that is held by the fed, so call it $17.5 trillion net. If, on average, the debt has been issued with an extra yield of 0.1% to compensate investors for the risk that one day the brinkmanship will go too far, that costs the US $17.5bn a year.
Do you think that’s good value Marty?
I’m not quite clear. Are you outraged at the substance of what was agreed? I note that you don’t (in this comment) speak to that.
It’s not about substance, it is never about substance, it’s always about form. “Form is political” says Jameson. Long quote coming, not for your edification, but as an partial explanation of my style and an example of my style. To be discussed by me later, because although I read everything, every comment, I don’t think it serves anyone to hang constantly and argue details of substance. I don’t learn as much when writing.
Stephen Bronner, from Routledge Handbook of Critical Theory, 2016
Thinkers like Michel Foucault began with the
assumption that reference to a totally integrated society was predicated on the
use of abstractions that were artificially constructed. Better in his view to understand subjectivity in terms of binary oppositions that immediately and directly constrain its practice: gay/straight, male/female, black/white—though, obviously, these distinctions can be multiplied further. Experiential identity always contested in its ever more hybrid constructions becomes the source of soli-
darity and freedom. Striking is the way in which the idea of a unified society
collapses along with a prefabricated revolutionary subject. Self-understanding
takes on an existential quality that allows for resistance and solidarity against
different and changing hegemonic discourses and categories that render a particular group subaltern. Embedded in this idea is the recognition that the ever more particular experience of reality is part of understanding it. Thus, the unique experience of the given subaltern fuses with rationality, thereby creating
an episteme capable of calling traditional epistemology into question.
Hegemony in its particular exercise and manipulation of artificially con-
structed categories becomes the site of shifting power relations that always
requires resistance with an eye on expanding the possibilities for exercising
subjectivity. Where this approach liberates subjectivity for practice by shattering
the universal categories still employed by critical theory, and by highlighting
forgotten forms of oppression
Both standpoints consider themselves “postmetaphysical.” In rejecting uni-
versals, grand narratives, fixed criteria of judgments, and consideration of all
constructs as inherently artificial and arbitrary, poststructuralists insist that experience enters into epistemological judgment and that subjectivity is embodied
in postcolonial, feminist, queer, and various hybrid forms of expression. These
are concrete and subversive insofar as they emerge only by deconstructing uni-
versal categories, grand narratives, and habitually accepted criteria of judgment
that are actually artificially constructed and arbitrary in their suppression of
the subaltern by the particular hegemonic exercise of power.
Poststructuralist and communicative approaches claim to contest the meta-
physical character of mainstream philosophy. But they accept the existing phil-
osophical paradigm in making their criticisms and, like traditional theory, they exhibit the same avoidance of politics and practice. They too leave resistance
and the ability to reflect on experience without an institutional or objective
referent. Deconstruction has proven useful for women contesting patriarchal
norms, for gays in confronting a straight world, for people of color dealing
with the conceptual and discursive legacy of racism, and for postcolonial men
and women resisting ethnocentric forms of cultural imperialism. But it has had
less success in either reconstructing a politics of the subaltern or even subject-
ing his or her experiences and traditions to internal critique. Subjectivity turns
into a self-referential category, identity into a purely existential concern, once
the objective moment of the force-field is deconstructed. Without shared prin-
ciples and interests, demands for support from other subaltern groups rest little
more than guilt. Poststructuralists leave individuals floating amid the fragments
without any conceptual apparatus for making sense of their humanity. These
thinkers never appreciated what Kant understood so clearly, namely, that ratio-
nal ethics (even if it never provides the certainty of scientific investigation) is a
practical necessity because individuals making difficult normative decisions in
everyday life seek justifications for their choices.”
Sorry, correct formatting became an endless task.
I’m not saying here look at my smarts, because as a Marxist education and intelligence is never the point. Most people use the above without necessarily being able to explain it, because their bodies and epistemologies have become expressions of their subjectivities via a committment.
The workers (women, blacks, gays etc) as a collectivity don’t have the greater share brains or money.
We have numbers, and we have intransigence.
I’m not quite clear. Are you outraged at the substance of what was agreed? I note that you don’t (in this comment) speak to that.
It’s not about substance, it is never about substance, it’s always about form. “Form is political” says Jameson. Long quote coming, not for your edification, but as an partial explanation of my style and an example of my style. To be discussed by me later, because although I read everything, every comment, I don’t think it serves anyone to hang constantly and argue details of substance. I don’t learn as much when writing.
Stephen Bronner, from Routledge Handbook of Critical Theory, 2016
Thinkers like Michel Foucault began with the
assumption that reference to a totally integrated society was predicated on the
use of abstractions that were artificially constructed. Better in his view to understand subjectivity in terms of binary oppositions that immediately and directly constrain its practice: gay/straight, male/female, black/white—though, obviously, these distinctions can be multiplied further. Experiential identity always contested in its ever more hybrid constructions becomes the source of soli-
darity and freedom. Striking is the way in which the idea of a unified society
collapses along with a prefabricated revolutionary subject. Self-understanding
takes on an existential quality that allows for resistance and solidarity against
different and changing hegemonic discourses and categories that render a particular group subaltern. Embedded in this idea is the recognition that the ever more particular experience of reality is part of understanding it. Thus, the unique experience of the given subaltern fuses with rationality, thereby creating
an episteme capable of calling traditional epistemology into question.
Hegemony in its particular exercise and manipulation of artificially con-
structed categories becomes the site of shifting power relations that always
requires resistance with an eye on expanding the possibilities for exercising
subjectivity. Where this approach liberates subjectivity for practice by shattering
the universal categories still employed by critical theory, and by highlighting
forgotten forms of oppression
Both standpoints consider themselves “postmetaphysical.” In rejecting uni-
versals, grand narratives, fixed criteria of judgments, and consideration of all
constructs as inherently artificial and arbitrary, poststructuralists insist that experience enters into epistemological judgment and that subjectivity is embodied
in postcolonial, feminist, queer, and various hybrid forms of expression. These
are concrete and subversive insofar as they emerge only by deconstructing uni-
versal categories, grand narratives, and habitually accepted criteria of judgment
that are actually artificially constructed and arbitrary in their suppression of
the subaltern by the particular hegemonic exercise of power.
Poststructuralist and communicative approaches claim to contest the meta-
physical character of mainstream philosophy. But they accept the existing phil-
osophical paradigm in making their criticisms and, like traditional theory, they exhibit the same avoidance of politics and practice. They too leave resistance
and the ability to reflect on experience without an institutional or objective
referent. Deconstruction has proven useful for women contesting patriarchal
norms, for gays in confronting a straight world, for people of color dealing
with the conceptual and discursive legacy of racism, and for postcolonial men
and women resisting ethnocentric forms of cultural imperialism. But it has had
less success in either reconstructing a politics of the subaltern or even subject-
ing his or her experiences and traditions to internal critique. Subjectivity turns
into a self-referential category, identity into a purely existential concern, once
the objective moment of the force-field is deconstructed. Without shared prin-
ciples and interests, demands for support from other subaltern groups rest little
more than guilt. Poststructuralists leave individuals floating amid the fragments
without any conceptual apparatus for making sense of their humanity. These
thinkers never appreciated what Kant understood so clearly, namely, that ratio-
nal ethics (even if it never provides the certainty of scientific investigation) is a
practical necessity because individuals making difficult normative decisions in
everyday life seek justifications for their choices.”
Sorry, correct formatting became an endless task.
I’m not saying here look at my smarts, because as a Marxist education and intelligence is never the point. Most people use the above without necessarily being able to explain it, because their bodies and epistemologies have become expressions of their subjectivities via a committment.
The workers (women, blacks, gays etc) as a collectivity don’t have the greater share brains or money.
We have numbers, and we have intransigence.
Repeat with a correction:
We have the numbers, we have histories, and we have intransigence.
Outrageous, but let “I” represent all the oppressed for just a moment.
1) Numbers: I reject all elitism and vanguardism. I know I don’t have enough on my side yet. What this means to me is usual Marxian practice. Listen to the workers. Take their perceived interests into theory and adjust theory. Use adjusted theory to analyze current class forces and take that back to the workers.
2) Histories: And identities and interests and placement. We are who we are and proud of it.
3) Intransigence: Look to my first comment in the thread. Six months ago, it was “Trump is not my President, and never will be. No deals ever.” That is the oppressed best and most tool. Strikes. Riots. Refusal to engage on the terms and frames power offers. Sometimes you do compromise and make deals, but that is a tactic, and “Up yours” is always the underlying resistance, strategy, and revolutionary praxis.
That’s enough for now. Too much like work.
That’s enough for now.
Repeat with a correction:
We have the numbers, we have histories, and we have intransigence.
Outrageous, but let “I” represent all the oppressed for just a moment.
1) Numbers: I reject all elitism and vanguardism. I know I don’t have enough on my side yet. What this means to me is usual Marxian practice. Listen to the workers. Take their perceived interests into theory and adjust theory. Use adjusted theory to analyze current class forces and take that back to the workers.
2) Histories: And identities and interests and placement. We are who we are and proud of it.
3) Intransigence: Look to my first comment in the thread. Six months ago, it was “Trump is not my President, and never will be. No deals ever.” That is the oppressed best and most tool. Strikes. Riots. Refusal to engage on the terms and frames power offers. Sometimes you do compromise and make deals, but that is a tactic, and “Up yours” is always the underlying resistance, strategy, and revolutionary praxis.
That’s enough for now. Too much like work.
That’s enough for now.
tots agree with Marty’s 12:40AM.
Perhaps it’s just me, but the definitions that I use (which are mine):
Morality = rules you (want to) impose on others.
Ethics = rules you impose on yourself.
I’m big on ethics, not so big on morality. Something about “be conservative about what you do, be liberal about what you accept” rule for the internet. Might be an RFC, even.
And ANY -ism that treats little kids badly should be stomped into oblivion also, too.
tots agree with Marty’s 12:40AM.
Perhaps it’s just me, but the definitions that I use (which are mine):
Morality = rules you (want to) impose on others.
Ethics = rules you impose on yourself.
I’m big on ethics, not so big on morality. Something about “be conservative about what you do, be liberal about what you accept” rule for the internet. Might be an RFC, even.
And ANY -ism that treats little kids badly should be stomped into oblivion also, too.
Bit of a demolition derby, I’d venture.
I don’t know why, but this got me:
https://twitter.com/ABC/status/906805642589065216/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.balloon-juice.com%2F
Bit of a demolition derby, I’d venture.
I don’t know why, but this got me:
https://twitter.com/ABC/status/906805642589065216/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.balloon-juice.com%2F
I’ve put in for a refill of my chill pills.
I’ve put in for a refill of my chill pills.
With age I have lost what (considerable) ability I had in my youth for abstract thought, so bob mcmanus’s contributions frequently seem now to me like impenetrable thickets of words which, to the rare extent they have common currency, have been wrenched incomprehensibly far from their original meanings. I do not really mean this as a criticism: it is clearly caused by a combination in me of age-related cognitive deterioration and the fact that I dropped out of college (twice) and thus failed to acquire any political or economic theory, along with their specialised vocabulary.
However, I want to address sapient’s and McKinney’s point about bob mcm being welcomed with open arms as against Marty (and McKinney) being argued with, railed at, etc. etc. It seems unarguable to me that liberals, soft lefties/progressives of the sort who mainly people ObWi are more sympathetic to hard-left opinion than to hard- (or even not so hard-) right-wing opinion. To me this is easily understandable: left wing political thought is avowedly for the well-being of the many, with equality for all at the very basis of its project, no matter how much it has been misused in practice everywhere in the world it has held sway, and the millions who have consequently died. You might say that their aims are good, but that human nature is such that once they have swept away an oligopoly they can only set about replacing it with another, with themselves and their families at its apex. Whatever. The basis of the ideology, no matter how often traduced in practice, is to do with fairness.
Right-wing political thought, on the other hand, especially on the medium-far right, is avowedly for the rich (give them tax breaks and it might trickle down), management (erode workers’ rights – it’ll be for the good of industry in the long run). Not to mention its racism (unarmed blacks getting shot? Almost certainly deserved it, including the disproportionate number of blacks in jail), sexism (birth control not covered by insurance) etc etc. And if you want to go far-right, white supremacist neo-Nazi, which I suppose is the equivalent of bob mcm’s far left, you are dealing with an ideology the basis of which is anti-semitism and other forms of racism.
Obviously, my characterisation of these two schools of thought is somewhat biased by my own leanings, but I would like to hear how what I have said is essentially wrong. And if I am right, it is easy to see how one might be more tolerant of the proponents of one rather than the other, as issuing from an essentially good intention. I agree that bob mcm makes it harder by enthusiastically agreeing that millions must die to bring about his wished for outcome, but I choose to put this in the same rhetorical basket as the Count’s frequent, if unfortunate, calls for GOPicide (the Doc did once give him a hard time for referring to them as vermin, russell, she was right that that type of invective has preceded many genocides, but you are right that the Count is unlikely to spawn any).
Apart from this, I have only disparate thoughts to add:
People did defend you, sapient, and someone (possibly Tony P) threatened to leave ObWi if you weren’t allowed back. And you’re right, you are a lot better now, but your holier-than-thou shtick made it harder to defend you when you were turning against everyone here who disagreed with you, or criticised HRC or the Dems, in the slightest.
We’ve talked about privilege of various sorts, and the hatefulness of the rich (bob mcm again) in the past, and I have defended on the basis of the good works done by some of them. I read in the NYT a couple of days ago this article: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/08/opinion/sunday/what-the-rich-wont-tell-you.html?mcubz=1&_r=0
which some of you may have already seen, and which rehashed some of what we talked about. The piece ended with this:
Obviously, many or most of you thought this already, but this was argued and put in such a way that I found it very persuasive, FWIW. Maybe because of my very lack of economic/political theory and vocabulary?
To conclude this rather rambling post, I just want to say this. There are plenty of places on the Internet where people insult other people, accuse them, set up straw men etc etc. The point of ObWi, to me, is that people here don’t generally behave that way, so conversation can flourish. We have legitimate, and in some cases fairly violent, disagreements of opinion. But all of this can take place with fairness. If, for example, Marty has always made clear his contempt for Trump and his never-Trump status, what purpose does it serve to call Trump his presidential candidate of choice? And to imply that Marty never talks about anything other than making fun of Dems, when he frequently joins in enthusiastically in e.g. conversations about music? I understand that lj, of whom I think highly, is having some kind of unspecified hard time, but it just seems to me unfair. You may say this is just the English obsession with fairness (although studies show even animals, have concepts of fairness), but to me, this is ridiculous, as is sapient’s frequent characterisations of me as “nice”, when I am just trying to be fair.
Bottom line, persuasive argument is more successful if you don’t make demonstrably unfair assumptions in constructing it. Contrary to any impression given, this is not only or even mainly aimed at lj!
With age I have lost what (considerable) ability I had in my youth for abstract thought, so bob mcmanus’s contributions frequently seem now to me like impenetrable thickets of words which, to the rare extent they have common currency, have been wrenched incomprehensibly far from their original meanings. I do not really mean this as a criticism: it is clearly caused by a combination in me of age-related cognitive deterioration and the fact that I dropped out of college (twice) and thus failed to acquire any political or economic theory, along with their specialised vocabulary.
However, I want to address sapient’s and McKinney’s point about bob mcm being welcomed with open arms as against Marty (and McKinney) being argued with, railed at, etc. etc. It seems unarguable to me that liberals, soft lefties/progressives of the sort who mainly people ObWi are more sympathetic to hard-left opinion than to hard- (or even not so hard-) right-wing opinion. To me this is easily understandable: left wing political thought is avowedly for the well-being of the many, with equality for all at the very basis of its project, no matter how much it has been misused in practice everywhere in the world it has held sway, and the millions who have consequently died. You might say that their aims are good, but that human nature is such that once they have swept away an oligopoly they can only set about replacing it with another, with themselves and their families at its apex. Whatever. The basis of the ideology, no matter how often traduced in practice, is to do with fairness.
Right-wing political thought, on the other hand, especially on the medium-far right, is avowedly for the rich (give them tax breaks and it might trickle down), management (erode workers’ rights – it’ll be for the good of industry in the long run). Not to mention its racism (unarmed blacks getting shot? Almost certainly deserved it, including the disproportionate number of blacks in jail), sexism (birth control not covered by insurance) etc etc. And if you want to go far-right, white supremacist neo-Nazi, which I suppose is the equivalent of bob mcm’s far left, you are dealing with an ideology the basis of which is anti-semitism and other forms of racism.
Obviously, my characterisation of these two schools of thought is somewhat biased by my own leanings, but I would like to hear how what I have said is essentially wrong. And if I am right, it is easy to see how one might be more tolerant of the proponents of one rather than the other, as issuing from an essentially good intention. I agree that bob mcm makes it harder by enthusiastically agreeing that millions must die to bring about his wished for outcome, but I choose to put this in the same rhetorical basket as the Count’s frequent, if unfortunate, calls for GOPicide (the Doc did once give him a hard time for referring to them as vermin, russell, she was right that that type of invective has preceded many genocides, but you are right that the Count is unlikely to spawn any).
Apart from this, I have only disparate thoughts to add:
People did defend you, sapient, and someone (possibly Tony P) threatened to leave ObWi if you weren’t allowed back. And you’re right, you are a lot better now, but your holier-than-thou shtick made it harder to defend you when you were turning against everyone here who disagreed with you, or criticised HRC or the Dems, in the slightest.
We’ve talked about privilege of various sorts, and the hatefulness of the rich (bob mcm again) in the past, and I have defended on the basis of the good works done by some of them. I read in the NYT a couple of days ago this article: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/08/opinion/sunday/what-the-rich-wont-tell-you.html?mcubz=1&_r=0
which some of you may have already seen, and which rehashed some of what we talked about. The piece ended with this:
Obviously, many or most of you thought this already, but this was argued and put in such a way that I found it very persuasive, FWIW. Maybe because of my very lack of economic/political theory and vocabulary?
To conclude this rather rambling post, I just want to say this. There are plenty of places on the Internet where people insult other people, accuse them, set up straw men etc etc. The point of ObWi, to me, is that people here don’t generally behave that way, so conversation can flourish. We have legitimate, and in some cases fairly violent, disagreements of opinion. But all of this can take place with fairness. If, for example, Marty has always made clear his contempt for Trump and his never-Trump status, what purpose does it serve to call Trump his presidential candidate of choice? And to imply that Marty never talks about anything other than making fun of Dems, when he frequently joins in enthusiastically in e.g. conversations about music? I understand that lj, of whom I think highly, is having some kind of unspecified hard time, but it just seems to me unfair. You may say this is just the English obsession with fairness (although studies show even animals, have concepts of fairness), but to me, this is ridiculous, as is sapient’s frequent characterisations of me as “nice”, when I am just trying to be fair.
Bottom line, persuasive argument is more successful if you don’t make demonstrably unfair assumptions in constructing it. Contrary to any impression given, this is not only or even mainly aimed at lj!
Well said, GFNC.
Well said, GFNC.
GftNC,
To the extent I am guilty of being more tolerant of McManus than of Marty/McKinney, which I don’t think I am, but anyway, I have a different explanation.
I see Trump and the Republican Party as genuine threats. They alarm me, and anyone supporting them, or even being a never-Trump Republican, is contributing to the risk, IMO.
McManus does not alarm me. This is not because I am more sympathetic in any way to his ideas about how the world should run. Given a choice between living in McManusWorld or Marty/McKinneyWorld I would unhesitatingly choose the latter.
McManus does not alarm me because I don’t see his thinking being making any progress towards being put into practice.
I’m concerned about the real and immediate threat.
GftNC,
To the extent I am guilty of being more tolerant of McManus than of Marty/McKinney, which I don’t think I am, but anyway, I have a different explanation.
I see Trump and the Republican Party as genuine threats. They alarm me, and anyone supporting them, or even being a never-Trump Republican, is contributing to the risk, IMO.
McManus does not alarm me. This is not because I am more sympathetic in any way to his ideas about how the world should run. Given a choice between living in McManusWorld or Marty/McKinneyWorld I would unhesitatingly choose the latter.
McManus does not alarm me because I don’t see his thinking being making any progress towards being put into practice.
I’m concerned about the real and immediate threat.
byomtov: interesting and understandable. Do you include wj in your “anyone supporting them, or even being a never-Trump Republican, is contributing to the risk”, by the way? I could be wrong, but I seem to remember that before the election wj, maybe McKinney and maybe Marty too said they no longer even identify as Republican.
byomtov: interesting and understandable. Do you include wj in your “anyone supporting them, or even being a never-Trump Republican, is contributing to the risk”, by the way? I could be wrong, but I seem to remember that before the election wj, maybe McKinney and maybe Marty too said they no longer even identify as Republican.
GftNC, I would offer this to your excellent comment. I could construct a list of expected outcomes from your clearly noble and egalitarian intended policies (institutional poverty, chronic localized unemployment, racist outcomes generally, economic stagnation, oligopoly based on status rather than wealth) that I could use to define lefties as having little regard for the people.
That’s the list you have constructed, correct or incorrect, to define the right. The rights focus is on creating the opportunity for everyone to be safe and secure, physically and economically while providing a true safety net. These are better in the long run for people than the left’s point solutions that patch the underlying wound. The right cares just as much about helping people, we just believe in a more permanent and broad based solution. Enabling almost everyone to provide for themselves.
I walk the line between the two often, but I know incredibly smart and caring people who believe in each approach.
The most difficult discussion on both sides is when they claim the other sides approach has been proven unworkable, as if any of them have ever been perfectly implemented. Including Bobs.
GftNC, I would offer this to your excellent comment. I could construct a list of expected outcomes from your clearly noble and egalitarian intended policies (institutional poverty, chronic localized unemployment, racist outcomes generally, economic stagnation, oligopoly based on status rather than wealth) that I could use to define lefties as having little regard for the people.
That’s the list you have constructed, correct or incorrect, to define the right. The rights focus is on creating the opportunity for everyone to be safe and secure, physically and economically while providing a true safety net. These are better in the long run for people than the left’s point solutions that patch the underlying wound. The right cares just as much about helping people, we just believe in a more permanent and broad based solution. Enabling almost everyone to provide for themselves.
I walk the line between the two often, but I know incredibly smart and caring people who believe in each approach.
The most difficult discussion on both sides is when they claim the other sides approach has been proven unworkable, as if any of them have ever been perfectly implemented. Including Bobs.
It seems unarguable to me that liberals, soft lefties/progressives of the sort who mainly people ObWi are more sympathetic to hard-left opinion than to hard- (or even not so hard-) right-wing opinion.
I suspect that, for me personally, it’s a matter of background and experience. After spending 8 years at Berkeley in the late 60s / early 70s, I’ve heard so much far-left lunacy that it tends to just bounce off.** Call it a personal spam filter, if you will. With the far right (which neither Marty nor McKinney are), I just don’t have the calluses.
Also, what byomtov said at 11:35 above.
** I do realize that, for a lot of those spouting it (NOT necessarily for McManus) it was more about teenage rebellion than genuine belief. But that doesn’t reduce how much of it I’ve heard.
It seems unarguable to me that liberals, soft lefties/progressives of the sort who mainly people ObWi are more sympathetic to hard-left opinion than to hard- (or even not so hard-) right-wing opinion.
I suspect that, for me personally, it’s a matter of background and experience. After spending 8 years at Berkeley in the late 60s / early 70s, I’ve heard so much far-left lunacy that it tends to just bounce off.** Call it a personal spam filter, if you will. With the far right (which neither Marty nor McKinney are), I just don’t have the calluses.
Also, what byomtov said at 11:35 above.
** I do realize that, for a lot of those spouting it (NOT necessarily for McManus) it was more about teenage rebellion than genuine belief. But that doesn’t reduce how much of it I’ve heard.
GfnTC,
The reason I include n-T’s is that I believe much of Trumpism is mainstream Republicanism, and has been around for a while. That would include, for example, climate change denialism and willful ignorance of science, tax policies whose purpose is to cut entitlements and hand over the savings to the wealthy, (see pretty much any Paul Ryan budget proposal), disregard for environmental concerns, anti-immigrant hysteria, suppression of minority voting, etc. I would not be happy if Ted Cruz were President.
As for Marty, wj, and McKinney, if they are no longer Republicans, and reject the worst parts of GOP policy, good for them.
GfnTC,
The reason I include n-T’s is that I believe much of Trumpism is mainstream Republicanism, and has been around for a while. That would include, for example, climate change denialism and willful ignorance of science, tax policies whose purpose is to cut entitlements and hand over the savings to the wealthy, (see pretty much any Paul Ryan budget proposal), disregard for environmental concerns, anti-immigrant hysteria, suppression of minority voting, etc. I would not be happy if Ted Cruz were President.
As for Marty, wj, and McKinney, if they are no longer Republicans, and reject the worst parts of GOP policy, good for them.
I could be wrong, but I seem to remember that before the election wj, maybe McKinney and maybe Marty too said they no longer even identify as Republican.
Oh I still identify as a Republican. Even though the last Republican Presidential candidate I was able to vote for was Bob Dole. (Which, it occurs to me, is rather a long time ago by now.)
But I’m still registered as a Republican, as I have been for over half a century now. (Although, with California’s open-primary system, that only matters for Presidential primaries.) And I still vote for non-radical Republicans at other levels — e.g. my state Assemblywoman.
Actually, other things being vaguely equal, I will go out of my way to support Republicans who are not nut cases. It’s part of my (quite possibly futile) effort to reclaim my party.
I could be wrong, but I seem to remember that before the election wj, maybe McKinney and maybe Marty too said they no longer even identify as Republican.
Oh I still identify as a Republican. Even though the last Republican Presidential candidate I was able to vote for was Bob Dole. (Which, it occurs to me, is rather a long time ago by now.)
But I’m still registered as a Republican, as I have been for over half a century now. (Although, with California’s open-primary system, that only matters for Presidential primaries.) And I still vote for non-radical Republicans at other levels — e.g. my state Assemblywoman.
Actually, other things being vaguely equal, I will go out of my way to support Republicans who are not nut cases. It’s part of my (quite possibly futile) effort to reclaim my party.
wj,
but, but, but….you have a Republican president who is instituting Republican
Regards.
wj,
but, but, but….you have a Republican president who is instituting Republican
Regards.
boy….did I ever mess that one up!
boy….did I ever mess that one up!
climate change denialism and willful ignorance of science, tax policies whose purpose is to cut entitlements and hand over the savings to the wealthy, (see pretty much any Paul Ryan budget proposal), disregard for environmental concerns, anti-immigrant hysteria, suppression of minority voting
Clearly, all of this appals me too, and I agree, it seems to be fairly mainstream Republican thought these days, certainly among most Republican voters, and among all Tea-Party, Trumpista or other Johnny-come-latelies. wj, it looks to me (from afar, admittedly) as if you identify as the supporter of a party which no longer exists.
The rights focus is on creating the opportunity for everyone to be safe and secure, physically and economically while providing a true safety net. These are better in the long run for people than the left’s point solutions that patch the underlying wound. The right cares just as much about helping people, we just believe in a more permanent and broad based solution. Enabling almost everyone to provide for themselves.
Marty, I don’t know what to say to you, except that I believe you are a person of goodwill who actually believes this.
climate change denialism and willful ignorance of science, tax policies whose purpose is to cut entitlements and hand over the savings to the wealthy, (see pretty much any Paul Ryan budget proposal), disregard for environmental concerns, anti-immigrant hysteria, suppression of minority voting
Clearly, all of this appals me too, and I agree, it seems to be fairly mainstream Republican thought these days, certainly among most Republican voters, and among all Tea-Party, Trumpista or other Johnny-come-latelies. wj, it looks to me (from afar, admittedly) as if you identify as the supporter of a party which no longer exists.
The rights focus is on creating the opportunity for everyone to be safe and secure, physically and economically while providing a true safety net. These are better in the long run for people than the left’s point solutions that patch the underlying wound. The right cares just as much about helping people, we just believe in a more permanent and broad based solution. Enabling almost everyone to provide for themselves.
Marty, I don’t know what to say to you, except that I believe you are a person of goodwill who actually believes this.
With age I have lost what (considerable) ability I had in my youth for abstract thought, so bob mcmanus’s contributions frequently seem now to me like impenetrable thickets of words which, to the rare extent they have common currency, have been wrenched incomprehensibly far from their original meanings.
I see some of bob’s comments the same way, though I’ve never attributed it to my age. Maybe it is. I still find them interesting, even when I don’t have the motivation to try to understand them. Have you ever come across this site:
http://www.elsewhere.org/pomo/
Posts are generated by what’s described here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodernism_Generator
(the Doc did once give him a hard time for referring to them as vermin, russell, she was right that that type of invective has preceded many genocides, but you are right that the Count is unlikely to spawn any)
I very clearly remember this, too.
With age I have lost what (considerable) ability I had in my youth for abstract thought, so bob mcmanus’s contributions frequently seem now to me like impenetrable thickets of words which, to the rare extent they have common currency, have been wrenched incomprehensibly far from their original meanings.
I see some of bob’s comments the same way, though I’ve never attributed it to my age. Maybe it is. I still find them interesting, even when I don’t have the motivation to try to understand them. Have you ever come across this site:
http://www.elsewhere.org/pomo/
Posts are generated by what’s described here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodernism_Generator
(the Doc did once give him a hard time for referring to them as vermin, russell, she was right that that type of invective has preceded many genocides, but you are right that the Count is unlikely to spawn any)
I very clearly remember this, too.
Bobby, the picture that I have in my head is of the Party of Lincoln that I grew up with. I won’t argue with the thesis that today it has become, to an appalling extent, more like the party of Jefferson Davis and Ayn Rand. But a) not entirely, b) not everywhere, and c) not, I pray, irretrievably.
I think the nation needs a center-right party which is capable of being a “party of government”. At the moment, we manifestly do not have one. I think that, however remote the prospect may be, retaking the GOP for that role is far more likely to succeed than trying to create a new party. That last may be changing, as the current harakiri** continues.
** Yes, lj, I do know that the preferred gloss is seppuku (切腹). I used the less elegant term deliberately.
Bobby, the picture that I have in my head is of the Party of Lincoln that I grew up with. I won’t argue with the thesis that today it has become, to an appalling extent, more like the party of Jefferson Davis and Ayn Rand. But a) not entirely, b) not everywhere, and c) not, I pray, irretrievably.
I think the nation needs a center-right party which is capable of being a “party of government”. At the moment, we manifestly do not have one. I think that, however remote the prospect may be, retaking the GOP for that role is far more likely to succeed than trying to create a new party. That last may be changing, as the current harakiri** continues.
** Yes, lj, I do know that the preferred gloss is seppuku (切腹). I used the less elegant term deliberately.
Instead, we should talk not about the moral worth of individuals but about the moral worth of particular social arrangements.
This. Thank you.
The rights focus is on creating the opportunity for everyone to be safe and secure, physically and economically while providing a true safety net
I hear this all the time, but I never see it.
So, I don’t believe it.
Not talking about you, Marty, I’m talking about the right.
Deeds, not words.
Instead, we should talk not about the moral worth of individuals but about the moral worth of particular social arrangements.
This. Thank you.
The rights focus is on creating the opportunity for everyone to be safe and secure, physically and economically while providing a true safety net
I hear this all the time, but I never see it.
So, I don’t believe it.
Not talking about you, Marty, I’m talking about the right.
Deeds, not words.
I very clearly remember this, too.
I remember it, too, it’s just not what she was calling him out for in this thread.
If I could wave a magic wand and confine the Count’s spleen to the use of the word “vermin”, I’d call it a victory and knock off for the rest of the day.
I very clearly remember this, too.
I remember it, too, it’s just not what she was calling him out for in this thread.
If I could wave a magic wand and confine the Count’s spleen to the use of the word “vermin”, I’d call it a victory and knock off for the rest of the day.
I think the nation needs a center-right party which is capable of being a “party of government”.
Well, that would all depend on what you mean by “center-right”, does it not?
Why not a “center left”(more or less current Dems) party and a “left” (Social Democratic) party?
They might even be able to conduct civil discussions on their policy disagreements (har, har, har….berniebros vs. clintonistas which see).
🙂
I leave anarcho-socialism (my preference) for the far distant future….if we ever get there.
I think the nation needs a center-right party which is capable of being a “party of government”.
Well, that would all depend on what you mean by “center-right”, does it not?
Why not a “center left”(more or less current Dems) party and a “left” (Social Democratic) party?
They might even be able to conduct civil discussions on their policy disagreements (har, har, har….berniebros vs. clintonistas which see).
🙂
I leave anarcho-socialism (my preference) for the far distant future….if we ever get there.
Why not a “center left”(more or less current Dems) party and a “left” (Social Democratic) party?
Because, regardless of where you think the center ought to be, it is where it is. Having both parties on the same side of the actual center of the electorate’s views leaves an awful lot of people feeling like they have nowhere to go.
They might, for a while, go to the center-left (vs. left) party, which I can understand you considering a good thing. But before long they are, as we have seen, probably going to decide that some far right party is closer to what they want than the left party, when it comes time to boot out the center-left party.
Or they might go for some populist (or pseudo-populist) like Trump….
Why not a “center left”(more or less current Dems) party and a “left” (Social Democratic) party?
Because, regardless of where you think the center ought to be, it is where it is. Having both parties on the same side of the actual center of the electorate’s views leaves an awful lot of people feeling like they have nowhere to go.
They might, for a while, go to the center-left (vs. left) party, which I can understand you considering a good thing. But before long they are, as we have seen, probably going to decide that some far right party is closer to what they want than the left party, when it comes time to boot out the center-left party.
Or they might go for some populist (or pseudo-populist) like Trump….
Long comment from Russell (back at 10:28 PM yesterday) rescued from the Spam folder. Go back and read it if you are interested.
Long comment from Russell (back at 10:28 PM yesterday) rescued from the Spam folder. Go back and read it if you are interested.
What Russell waves.
I’ll take my spleen in to the same doctor who irrigated my gall bladder to get rid of all of the gall I once possessed and see what can be done about this.
There will be a period of silent convalescence. I’m going to place my typing fingers in oven mitts for an interlude.
“she was right that that type of invective has preceded many genocides”
Yes, she was. In which case, the deceptively and comparatively politely phrased RNC policy platforms and the cute imagistic use of the language (Second Amendment solutions, drowned babies in bathtubs, etc.; now I’m told it’s called a more permanent and broad-based solution, perhaps final for many) and the very near but not quite violent rhetoric of any vast number of right-wing radical organizations the Republican Party milks support and money from have lulled us into complacency regarding the genocidal consequences of permitting those policies to have their way.
There’s not a single curse word (never have so many words been strung end-to-end to spell out Fuck You) or threat of violence in “Atlas Shrugged” that I recall, (God of course, particularly in the Old Testament, is not so disciplined, nor were the Founding Fathers in their screeds), but permitting its message to be put into practice would kill billions, just as Stalin tried.
Getting rid of Medicare, for example, (Yomtov started a list above) as the right wing dreams of accomplishing and have said so innumerable times, is a literal threat of genocide to millions, including Rand herself, had she lived, who got herself enrolled, a hypocrisy I applaud, and ain’t it nice she didn’t have to have her gutter mouth washed out with soap, despite its couching in republican conservative screed after screed in the banal terms of a train scheduling accountant in 1942 Germany.
Anyway, I like everyone here. Rump, of course, loves all of us.
I take nothing personally except requests for personal favors, which I do my best to honor.
What Russell waves.
I’ll take my spleen in to the same doctor who irrigated my gall bladder to get rid of all of the gall I once possessed and see what can be done about this.
There will be a period of silent convalescence. I’m going to place my typing fingers in oven mitts for an interlude.
“she was right that that type of invective has preceded many genocides”
Yes, she was. In which case, the deceptively and comparatively politely phrased RNC policy platforms and the cute imagistic use of the language (Second Amendment solutions, drowned babies in bathtubs, etc.; now I’m told it’s called a more permanent and broad-based solution, perhaps final for many) and the very near but not quite violent rhetoric of any vast number of right-wing radical organizations the Republican Party milks support and money from have lulled us into complacency regarding the genocidal consequences of permitting those policies to have their way.
There’s not a single curse word (never have so many words been strung end-to-end to spell out Fuck You) or threat of violence in “Atlas Shrugged” that I recall, (God of course, particularly in the Old Testament, is not so disciplined, nor were the Founding Fathers in their screeds), but permitting its message to be put into practice would kill billions, just as Stalin tried.
Getting rid of Medicare, for example, (Yomtov started a list above) as the right wing dreams of accomplishing and have said so innumerable times, is a literal threat of genocide to millions, including Rand herself, had she lived, who got herself enrolled, a hypocrisy I applaud, and ain’t it nice she didn’t have to have her gutter mouth washed out with soap, despite its couching in republican conservative screed after screed in the banal terms of a train scheduling accountant in 1942 Germany.
Anyway, I like everyone here. Rump, of course, loves all of us.
I take nothing personally except requests for personal favors, which I do my best to honor.
Just to respond to a couple of comments that GftNC made in her comment that referenced, and was in part directed toward, me:
I agree that bob mcm makes it harder by enthusiastically agreeing that millions must die to bring about his wished for outcome, but I choose to put this in the same rhetorical basket as the Count’s frequent, if unfortunate, calls for GOPicide (the Doc did once give him a hard time for referring to them as vermin, russell, she was right that that type of invective has preceded many genocides, but you are right that the Count is unlikely to spawn any).
I don’t think that bob and the Count are remotely comparable in their rhetoric. It’s fairly clear that bob admires historical figures who practiced mass murder. I agree that Communism’s goals are theoretically benevolent, and fascism’s are repugnant, but once you actually throw in the historical record (as bob does), communism becomes a lot less attractive. bob doesn’t even talk about a theoretical endgame of equality – it’s just about perpetual struggle. To say that adherents of that kind of philosophy aren’t dangerous, I point you to the last election where the Bern it Down faction is perhaps as responsible for Trump as the Trumpists.
but your holier-than-thou shtick made it harder to defend you when you were turning against everyone here who disagreed with you, or criticised HRC or the Dems, in the slightest.
Holier than thou? Turning against? I merely pointed out when people’s rhetoric was, perhaps unintentionally, supporting the other side. When people were helping out the Trump faction by stating the exact words that Mike Pence uttered, or giving them talking points with gratuitous Clinton insults, distrusting Obama’s statements about Russia (which were based on intelligence agency findings) in favor of the pathological liar Trump’s version of things, or repeating “white working class economic anxiety” arguments while ignoring the demonstrable fact of true economic gains that have been made under Democrats – I objected to those statements and narratives because they were incorrect, not to mention extremely unhelpful to achieving goals that many people here supposedly share. Your attempt to be “fair” ignores the truth in my objections to what people were saying.
If, for example, Marty has always made clear his contempt for Trump and his never-Trump status, what purpose does it serve to call Trump his presidential candidate of choice?
Marty has not always made that contempt clear.
You project that clarity out of “fairness”.
People knew full-well that voting for someone besides Clinton would have diminished her chances of winning, therefore enhanced Trump. Since the election, Marty has defended Trump adamantly. He is de facto a Trump supporter.
The article that you quoted is interesting, and thank you for it. I think that for many people here, myself included, believe that some redistribution of wealth is a worthy societal goal. The author of the article seems to believe in a moral imperative to achieve perfect material equality, by eliminating personal wealth of people who have too much. I am comfortable with the idea of eliminating poverty. I don’t care if some people are wealthier than others, or buy fancier clothes, houses, or bread. I don’t see a nonviolent way to get to perfect material equality, and believe that money is an incentive for some productive work. That said, taxing the wealthy, especially inherited and other kinds of unearned wealth, and spending it on the common good, including solid safety nets – that hurts no one and has been shown to work well.
Just to respond to a couple of comments that GftNC made in her comment that referenced, and was in part directed toward, me:
I agree that bob mcm makes it harder by enthusiastically agreeing that millions must die to bring about his wished for outcome, but I choose to put this in the same rhetorical basket as the Count’s frequent, if unfortunate, calls for GOPicide (the Doc did once give him a hard time for referring to them as vermin, russell, she was right that that type of invective has preceded many genocides, but you are right that the Count is unlikely to spawn any).
I don’t think that bob and the Count are remotely comparable in their rhetoric. It’s fairly clear that bob admires historical figures who practiced mass murder. I agree that Communism’s goals are theoretically benevolent, and fascism’s are repugnant, but once you actually throw in the historical record (as bob does), communism becomes a lot less attractive. bob doesn’t even talk about a theoretical endgame of equality – it’s just about perpetual struggle. To say that adherents of that kind of philosophy aren’t dangerous, I point you to the last election where the Bern it Down faction is perhaps as responsible for Trump as the Trumpists.
but your holier-than-thou shtick made it harder to defend you when you were turning against everyone here who disagreed with you, or criticised HRC or the Dems, in the slightest.
Holier than thou? Turning against? I merely pointed out when people’s rhetoric was, perhaps unintentionally, supporting the other side. When people were helping out the Trump faction by stating the exact words that Mike Pence uttered, or giving them talking points with gratuitous Clinton insults, distrusting Obama’s statements about Russia (which were based on intelligence agency findings) in favor of the pathological liar Trump’s version of things, or repeating “white working class economic anxiety” arguments while ignoring the demonstrable fact of true economic gains that have been made under Democrats – I objected to those statements and narratives because they were incorrect, not to mention extremely unhelpful to achieving goals that many people here supposedly share. Your attempt to be “fair” ignores the truth in my objections to what people were saying.
If, for example, Marty has always made clear his contempt for Trump and his never-Trump status, what purpose does it serve to call Trump his presidential candidate of choice?
Marty has not always made that contempt clear.
You project that clarity out of “fairness”.
People knew full-well that voting for someone besides Clinton would have diminished her chances of winning, therefore enhanced Trump. Since the election, Marty has defended Trump adamantly. He is de facto a Trump supporter.
The article that you quoted is interesting, and thank you for it. I think that for many people here, myself included, believe that some redistribution of wealth is a worthy societal goal. The author of the article seems to believe in a moral imperative to achieve perfect material equality, by eliminating personal wealth of people who have too much. I am comfortable with the idea of eliminating poverty. I don’t care if some people are wealthier than others, or buy fancier clothes, houses, or bread. I don’t see a nonviolent way to get to perfect material equality, and believe that money is an incentive for some productive work. That said, taxing the wealthy, especially inherited and other kinds of unearned wealth, and spending it on the common good, including solid safety nets – that hurts no one and has been shown to work well.
Marty has not always made that contempt clear.
You are wrong, sapient. Alas, I don’t have NV’s skill in using LMGTFY, but perhaps someone else can call some of it up. But in any case, I remember with great clarity Marty’s frequent scornful comments about Trump, and his repeated assurance that under no circumstances would he vote for him. But perhaps you are referring to Marty’s statements since the inauguration? This is the only possible interpretation which would not be a complete misrepresentation…
Marty has not always made that contempt clear.
You are wrong, sapient. Alas, I don’t have NV’s skill in using LMGTFY, but perhaps someone else can call some of it up. But in any case, I remember with great clarity Marty’s frequent scornful comments about Trump, and his repeated assurance that under no circumstances would he vote for him. But perhaps you are referring to Marty’s statements since the inauguration? This is the only possible interpretation which would not be a complete misrepresentation…
while i don’t doubt that Marty dislikes Trump personally, i know i can count on Marty to defend Trump against the lefties here. for 18 months or so (pre-election, certainly), with few exceptions, he’s dutifully manned the ramparts in defense of Trump whenever the lefties attacked.
while i don’t doubt that Marty dislikes Trump personally, i know i can count on Marty to defend Trump against the lefties here. for 18 months or so (pre-election, certainly), with few exceptions, he’s dutifully manned the ramparts in defense of Trump whenever the lefties attacked.
As far as I can tell, McK’s participation here has evolved to one of waiting until he can find something to reinforce his beliefs that all of lefties are hypocrites and generally full of sh*t, and then trolling us all with that.
Well, I suppose I could go to right wing sites and call out lefty hypocrisy, but that would be hanging out in the bubble, which I don’t do.
One reason the few of us righties come here is to do exactly as you say, call out the left on something. Where else would we go? Or, is it that the left gets a pass, or just doesn’t want to be bothered being asked to defend its position? I’m fine if these are the answers. Of course, whining about the right’s unwillingness to reflect and to respond to lefty complaints of hypocrisy would be, well, hypocritical.
For example, the Atlantic is running an excellent three part series on Obama’s upending of due process on college campuses and the institutionalized havoc it has caused. It’s worth a read and it’s useful insight into why people like me don’t want to give the keys to the kingdom to people like Obama–they overreach like crazy.
Right-wing political thought, on the other hand, especially on the medium-far right, is avowedly for the rich (give them tax breaks and it might trickle down), management (erode workers’ rights – it’ll be for the good of industry in the long run). Not to mention its racism (unarmed blacks getting shot? Almost certainly deserved it, including the disproportionate number of blacks in jail), sexism (birth control not covered by insurance) etc etc.
I’ve seen this formulation before. Who on the right actually says, “cut taxes for the wealthy, screw the workers and black people too and no birth control either.” Now, it might be that from a lefty’s perspective, the foregoing would be the impact of conservative policies, but saying that is what conservatives want is like me saying that all liberals want is to control every aspect of our economic lives, create a huge dependency of people who need the left in power to send them welfare checks in exchange for their vote, to give into every left wing dictator anywhere in the world and have our thoughts and speech dictated by academic intersectionalists.
I agree that lefties almost always mean well. I often disagree that their ideas of what is good for people is actually good at all. But, I don’t doubt the intent to benefit others.
Some number, seemingly the farther left on the spectrum one moves, have issues with wealth and capitalism. Private enterprise, however, is demonstrably far superior to any other form of economy. If you mix in an effective, balanced rule of law, a constitution much like the one we have and a lot what else we take for granted, the fact that there are clear winners and clear losers with a whole bunch of others somewhere in the middle, is actually about as good as it’s going to get in post-industrial country of 330 million people.
If some of the 1% want to drive stupid Land Rovers, so what? My wife and I spend a lot of money on golf. A lot. We pay a lot of taxes too. I get pissy when the conversational subtext of a statement is class envy.
And GFTNC, conservatives have no issue with insurance covering BC–that’s an unfair spin on the argument. Conservative don’t believe gov’t should force employers of conscience to pay-directly or indirectly–for something that violates conscience.
While I think there are some on the far end of the progressive left who see climate change and control of academia, inter alia, as a means of advancing a very lefty way of life, I don’t think most everyday libs feel that way at all.
FWIW–and it’s probably worth very little–I’m indifferent to how much money people have if it was made honestly. I don’t think the plight of workers is all that awful and, with some exceptions, I don’t see were unions–as they have devolved over time–add much value. I favor a moderately regulated free market with progressive taxes capped at 40-45% and a non-confiscatory estate tax that kicks in at the greater of 8-10M or 4M times the number of beneficiaries. I favor maximum individual liberty, personal, economic, religious, what have you. Free speech means every kind of speech, hate speech, ugly speech, racist speech, all of it. Fight back with better words and better ideas. I think welfare is a mixed benefit, with too much of it creating generational dependency, among many other ills.
The progressive regulatory bent really gets up my nose–it is far too intrusive: how college kids have sex, who qualifies to use the women’s restroom (anyone who claims to be a woman, even if they are clearly, outwardly a man–that’s exactly the undemocratic guidance Obama’s folks came out with) and what constitutes sexual assault (read the Atlantic, seriously). All of this highly problematic and this mindset knows no limits. It always needs a new demon to exorcise, so there will be no end to new regulatory initiatives to alleviate this or that new social ill. It is extremely undemocratic, usually contrary to due process, usually just not very smart and often quite authoritarian.
I’m just glad Obama’s folks didn’t try to tell all of us how to screw. Just imagine: sex rules for 200 million plus adults. Just what a free country needs.
Changing subjects: Sapient is undoubtedly very passionate. She is also, in many ways, a moderate–a militant moderate, if you will. I like her.
Sapient: I’m agnostic on DACA because it’s a subset of the larger immigration picture. I’d take DACA and DARPA and anyone else with a five year look back, if going forward, everyone agreed to limit immigration per the actual laws–no more amnesty, ever.
No other country in the world has open borders. Not even Canada, it turns out.
Finally, Russell, there are several reasons for my limited and seemingly more snarky forays. First, I’m really busy all the time and when I do jump in, I have about 20 times the comments to respond to than does the typical commenter here because I’m in the minority. So, it’s a real time commitment that often throws me off track on other stuff. Second, for some time, and especially since the election, ObWi is not as issue-oriented and thinky, with the give and take of earlier days, and a lot more emotional–and not in a good way. Third, when I am moved to jump in, it’s when free time and a discrete issue of lefty deficiency converge.
Oh, and for the record: Trump still sucks, I didn’t vote for him, I’m not a Republican and haven’t been since the early 2000’s; I wouldn’t pour raw sewage on Ted Cruz if he was on fire.
None of that makes lefties right.
As far as I can tell, McK’s participation here has evolved to one of waiting until he can find something to reinforce his beliefs that all of lefties are hypocrites and generally full of sh*t, and then trolling us all with that.
Well, I suppose I could go to right wing sites and call out lefty hypocrisy, but that would be hanging out in the bubble, which I don’t do.
One reason the few of us righties come here is to do exactly as you say, call out the left on something. Where else would we go? Or, is it that the left gets a pass, or just doesn’t want to be bothered being asked to defend its position? I’m fine if these are the answers. Of course, whining about the right’s unwillingness to reflect and to respond to lefty complaints of hypocrisy would be, well, hypocritical.
For example, the Atlantic is running an excellent three part series on Obama’s upending of due process on college campuses and the institutionalized havoc it has caused. It’s worth a read and it’s useful insight into why people like me don’t want to give the keys to the kingdom to people like Obama–they overreach like crazy.
Right-wing political thought, on the other hand, especially on the medium-far right, is avowedly for the rich (give them tax breaks and it might trickle down), management (erode workers’ rights – it’ll be for the good of industry in the long run). Not to mention its racism (unarmed blacks getting shot? Almost certainly deserved it, including the disproportionate number of blacks in jail), sexism (birth control not covered by insurance) etc etc.
I’ve seen this formulation before. Who on the right actually says, “cut taxes for the wealthy, screw the workers and black people too and no birth control either.” Now, it might be that from a lefty’s perspective, the foregoing would be the impact of conservative policies, but saying that is what conservatives want is like me saying that all liberals want is to control every aspect of our economic lives, create a huge dependency of people who need the left in power to send them welfare checks in exchange for their vote, to give into every left wing dictator anywhere in the world and have our thoughts and speech dictated by academic intersectionalists.
I agree that lefties almost always mean well. I often disagree that their ideas of what is good for people is actually good at all. But, I don’t doubt the intent to benefit others.
Some number, seemingly the farther left on the spectrum one moves, have issues with wealth and capitalism. Private enterprise, however, is demonstrably far superior to any other form of economy. If you mix in an effective, balanced rule of law, a constitution much like the one we have and a lot what else we take for granted, the fact that there are clear winners and clear losers with a whole bunch of others somewhere in the middle, is actually about as good as it’s going to get in post-industrial country of 330 million people.
If some of the 1% want to drive stupid Land Rovers, so what? My wife and I spend a lot of money on golf. A lot. We pay a lot of taxes too. I get pissy when the conversational subtext of a statement is class envy.
And GFTNC, conservatives have no issue with insurance covering BC–that’s an unfair spin on the argument. Conservative don’t believe gov’t should force employers of conscience to pay-directly or indirectly–for something that violates conscience.
While I think there are some on the far end of the progressive left who see climate change and control of academia, inter alia, as a means of advancing a very lefty way of life, I don’t think most everyday libs feel that way at all.
FWIW–and it’s probably worth very little–I’m indifferent to how much money people have if it was made honestly. I don’t think the plight of workers is all that awful and, with some exceptions, I don’t see were unions–as they have devolved over time–add much value. I favor a moderately regulated free market with progressive taxes capped at 40-45% and a non-confiscatory estate tax that kicks in at the greater of 8-10M or 4M times the number of beneficiaries. I favor maximum individual liberty, personal, economic, religious, what have you. Free speech means every kind of speech, hate speech, ugly speech, racist speech, all of it. Fight back with better words and better ideas. I think welfare is a mixed benefit, with too much of it creating generational dependency, among many other ills.
The progressive regulatory bent really gets up my nose–it is far too intrusive: how college kids have sex, who qualifies to use the women’s restroom (anyone who claims to be a woman, even if they are clearly, outwardly a man–that’s exactly the undemocratic guidance Obama’s folks came out with) and what constitutes sexual assault (read the Atlantic, seriously). All of this highly problematic and this mindset knows no limits. It always needs a new demon to exorcise, so there will be no end to new regulatory initiatives to alleviate this or that new social ill. It is extremely undemocratic, usually contrary to due process, usually just not very smart and often quite authoritarian.
I’m just glad Obama’s folks didn’t try to tell all of us how to screw. Just imagine: sex rules for 200 million plus adults. Just what a free country needs.
Changing subjects: Sapient is undoubtedly very passionate. She is also, in many ways, a moderate–a militant moderate, if you will. I like her.
Sapient: I’m agnostic on DACA because it’s a subset of the larger immigration picture. I’d take DACA and DARPA and anyone else with a five year look back, if going forward, everyone agreed to limit immigration per the actual laws–no more amnesty, ever.
No other country in the world has open borders. Not even Canada, it turns out.
Finally, Russell, there are several reasons for my limited and seemingly more snarky forays. First, I’m really busy all the time and when I do jump in, I have about 20 times the comments to respond to than does the typical commenter here because I’m in the minority. So, it’s a real time commitment that often throws me off track on other stuff. Second, for some time, and especially since the election, ObWi is not as issue-oriented and thinky, with the give and take of earlier days, and a lot more emotional–and not in a good way. Third, when I am moved to jump in, it’s when free time and a discrete issue of lefty deficiency converge.
Oh, and for the record: Trump still sucks, I didn’t vote for him, I’m not a Republican and haven’t been since the early 2000’s; I wouldn’t pour raw sewage on Ted Cruz if he was on fire.
None of that makes lefties right.
Sapient is undoubtedly very passionate. She is also, in many ways, a moderate–a militant moderate, if you will. I like her.
As it happens, I agree with this.
Sapient is undoubtedly very passionate. She is also, in many ways, a moderate–a militant moderate, if you will. I like her.
As it happens, I agree with this.
Thanks both of you for your kind words. Warmly reciprocated.
Thanks both of you for your kind words. Warmly reciprocated.
As to DACA, McKinney, I would like to see a more lenient immigration policy all the way round. Of course, DACA kids had nothing to do with determining their own status in the United States. They know this country as their home – like other young people that we know, all of their friends are here. Anyone who’s been approved has gone through rigorous background checks. They believe in our country in the same way, or even more, than our own chilcren.
I find it very affirming that people want to come here so badly from all over the world. Some of the most gifted students want to come to our universities. The American dream is something that people still believe in, and I’m so proud of that.
But the DACA kids are just our neighbors’ kids. I’ve met many of them, and I always leave smiling and committed to doing what I can for them. Their presence is uplifting. I feel that way when I’m around young people – I remember that things are possible.
I hope more than anything right now that we don’t let them down.
As to DACA, McKinney, I would like to see a more lenient immigration policy all the way round. Of course, DACA kids had nothing to do with determining their own status in the United States. They know this country as their home – like other young people that we know, all of their friends are here. Anyone who’s been approved has gone through rigorous background checks. They believe in our country in the same way, or even more, than our own chilcren.
I find it very affirming that people want to come here so badly from all over the world. Some of the most gifted students want to come to our universities. The American dream is something that people still believe in, and I’m so proud of that.
But the DACA kids are just our neighbors’ kids. I’ve met many of them, and I always leave smiling and committed to doing what I can for them. Their presence is uplifting. I feel that way when I’m around young people – I remember that things are possible.
I hope more than anything right now that we don’t let them down.
Well, a lot of interesting comments. I do appreciate all of you being here, including McT and Marty, believe it or not.
I got here because I felt I had no one to discuss the sort of things we discuss and I felt my English was deteriorating. I assume (and hope!) that everyone is here because they want to be, not because they have to be.
McManus is ’embraced’ more than Marty because it is much easier to reply to Marty when he makes a two sentence snarky remark than when Bob makes a 4 paragraph comment. McT, if you see the point of that observation, you might want to consider why you selected the word ’embraced’. Just because one person says something here and no one responds does not mean that everyone agrees with it.
I, and I think almost everyone else here, is well aware of the fact that McT and Marty end up on the bottom of pile ups. What I wish they would realize (and maybe they do realize and they are just lashing out in frustration) is that this is what happens when you are a minority in a place. You have to adjust to the majority, they don’t adjust to you. They can try, but they will never be able to. It sucks, I know, but that’s life.
Speaking for myself, Marty ends up on the target of my ire more because of his style, as opposed the McT’s of a Philadelphia lawyer, though McT has the annoying tendency to say something like the comment above that, while I disagree with, doesn’t really piss me off.
Until he adds the last sentence.
Well, a lot of interesting comments. I do appreciate all of you being here, including McT and Marty, believe it or not.
I got here because I felt I had no one to discuss the sort of things we discuss and I felt my English was deteriorating. I assume (and hope!) that everyone is here because they want to be, not because they have to be.
McManus is ’embraced’ more than Marty because it is much easier to reply to Marty when he makes a two sentence snarky remark than when Bob makes a 4 paragraph comment. McT, if you see the point of that observation, you might want to consider why you selected the word ’embraced’. Just because one person says something here and no one responds does not mean that everyone agrees with it.
I, and I think almost everyone else here, is well aware of the fact that McT and Marty end up on the bottom of pile ups. What I wish they would realize (and maybe they do realize and they are just lashing out in frustration) is that this is what happens when you are a minority in a place. You have to adjust to the majority, they don’t adjust to you. They can try, but they will never be able to. It sucks, I know, but that’s life.
Speaking for myself, Marty ends up on the target of my ire more because of his style, as opposed the McT’s of a Philadelphia lawyer, though McT has the annoying tendency to say something like the comment above that, while I disagree with, doesn’t really piss me off.
Until he adds the last sentence.
It’s worth a read and it’s useful insight into why people like me don’t want to give the keys to the kingdom to people like Obama–they overreach like crazy.
Perhaps my memory is failing me. But my recollection is that Obama tried working with the Republicans in Congress. And was rejected out of hand — no matter what he suggested, they were automatically against it. So, when he thought something needed to be addressed, he took the path that was available.
Would we have gotten something better if he and the Republicans had negotiated a compromise solution? I certainly think so. But you can’t negotiate a compromise with someone who refuses to even consider anything you suggest.
It resulted in a number of cases of “executive overreach.” But I don’t think that was his preferred approach to doing things. So much as the one he was stuck with.
It’s worth a read and it’s useful insight into why people like me don’t want to give the keys to the kingdom to people like Obama–they overreach like crazy.
Perhaps my memory is failing me. But my recollection is that Obama tried working with the Republicans in Congress. And was rejected out of hand — no matter what he suggested, they were automatically against it. So, when he thought something needed to be addressed, he took the path that was available.
Would we have gotten something better if he and the Republicans had negotiated a compromise solution? I certainly think so. But you can’t negotiate a compromise with someone who refuses to even consider anything you suggest.
It resulted in a number of cases of “executive overreach.” But I don’t think that was his preferred approach to doing things. So much as the one he was stuck with.
I’m just glad Obama’s folks didn’t try to tell all of us how to screw.
Obama’s folks?
http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/johnwright/michigan_senate_passes_bill_saying_sodomy_is_a_felony
I’m just glad Obama’s folks didn’t try to tell all of us how to screw.
Obama’s folks?
http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/johnwright/michigan_senate_passes_bill_saying_sodomy_is_a_felony
None of that makes lefties right.
We are never right, but generally speaking, correct.
None of that makes lefties right.
We are never right, but generally speaking, correct.
Now to tackle Bob’s comments. In an earlier comment, he said
Outrageous, but let “I” represent all the oppressed for just a moment.
Sure, we can do that for a blog comment, but in real life, a single representative of the oppressed never pops up. Depending on where you stand, that’s a feature of the capitalist system, not a bug.
The idea that we were all moving towards some sort of ideal state (waves at Francis Fukuyama) has slowly given way to the idea that we have all these identities, and I feel that this is a reaction to the all the melting pot/maybe you won’t become one of us, but your children will notions that still float around. As a defense against that, identity becomes an individual armor against the world. Modern society, which is nothing if not adaptive, is now based on fracturing people into niches where they can be managed. For some, exploited. Subaru sells cars to lesbians.
That’s why the excerpt Bob posted is off. To requote
Deconstruction has proven useful for women contesting patriarchal
norms, for gays in confronting a straight world, for people of color dealing with the conceptual and discursive legacy of racism, and for postcolonial men and women resisting ethnocentric forms of cultural imperialism. But it has had less success in either reconstructing a politics of the subaltern or even subjecting his or her experiences and traditions to internal critique.
Identity came about because people needed groups to combat particular trends in society. Modern society evolved and tried to manage those groups. It wasn’t the fault of identity that it couldn’t deal with a moving target. But now,
Subjectivity turns into a self-referential category, identity into a purely existential concern, once the objective moment of the force-field is deconstructed. Without shared principles and interests, demands for support from other subaltern groups rest little more than guilt. Poststructuralists leave individuals floating amid the fragments without any conceptual apparatus for making sense of their humanity.
Identity was co-opted, it’s no one’s ‘fault’, it’s how the world has turned. I watched with awe and amazement how Obama, by mere virtue of his election, became non-black. I read Coates piece and Josh Marshall’s reaction, and Marshall observes
But I could not read it without thinking there are a lot of voices – hardly little heard or without megaphones – he’s simply not hearing.
I thought that Marshall had missed the point. Insofar as anyone is hearing even a large portion of the voices, Coates piece is addressing how the ideas of white disenfranchisement are what we have to deal with rather than acknowledge the toxic legacy of racism. Bob suggested much earlier a Marxist notion that it was all economics, a bit like the woman who supposedly told Bertrand Russell ‘it’s turtles all the way down’. Good economic times paper over these cracks, Coates is saying, and dealing with the economy is dealing with the symptom, not the disease. I’m slowly coming around to that kind of thinking, especially after reading stories like this, via a former frontpager here
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/04/us/ferguson-watson-brown.html?smid=fb-share
Anyway, that is my feeble attempt to address McManus’ points, lest McT think I am ’embracing’ his call.
Now to tackle Bob’s comments. In an earlier comment, he said
Outrageous, but let “I” represent all the oppressed for just a moment.
Sure, we can do that for a blog comment, but in real life, a single representative of the oppressed never pops up. Depending on where you stand, that’s a feature of the capitalist system, not a bug.
The idea that we were all moving towards some sort of ideal state (waves at Francis Fukuyama) has slowly given way to the idea that we have all these identities, and I feel that this is a reaction to the all the melting pot/maybe you won’t become one of us, but your children will notions that still float around. As a defense against that, identity becomes an individual armor against the world. Modern society, which is nothing if not adaptive, is now based on fracturing people into niches where they can be managed. For some, exploited. Subaru sells cars to lesbians.
That’s why the excerpt Bob posted is off. To requote
Deconstruction has proven useful for women contesting patriarchal
norms, for gays in confronting a straight world, for people of color dealing with the conceptual and discursive legacy of racism, and for postcolonial men and women resisting ethnocentric forms of cultural imperialism. But it has had less success in either reconstructing a politics of the subaltern or even subjecting his or her experiences and traditions to internal critique.
Identity came about because people needed groups to combat particular trends in society. Modern society evolved and tried to manage those groups. It wasn’t the fault of identity that it couldn’t deal with a moving target. But now,
Subjectivity turns into a self-referential category, identity into a purely existential concern, once the objective moment of the force-field is deconstructed. Without shared principles and interests, demands for support from other subaltern groups rest little more than guilt. Poststructuralists leave individuals floating amid the fragments without any conceptual apparatus for making sense of their humanity.
Identity was co-opted, it’s no one’s ‘fault’, it’s how the world has turned. I watched with awe and amazement how Obama, by mere virtue of his election, became non-black. I read Coates piece and Josh Marshall’s reaction, and Marshall observes
But I could not read it without thinking there are a lot of voices – hardly little heard or without megaphones – he’s simply not hearing.
I thought that Marshall had missed the point. Insofar as anyone is hearing even a large portion of the voices, Coates piece is addressing how the ideas of white disenfranchisement are what we have to deal with rather than acknowledge the toxic legacy of racism. Bob suggested much earlier a Marxist notion that it was all economics, a bit like the woman who supposedly told Bertrand Russell ‘it’s turtles all the way down’. Good economic times paper over these cracks, Coates is saying, and dealing with the economy is dealing with the symptom, not the disease. I’m slowly coming around to that kind of thinking, especially after reading stories like this, via a former frontpager here
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/04/us/ferguson-watson-brown.html?smid=fb-share
Anyway, that is my feeble attempt to address McManus’ points, lest McT think I am ’embracing’ his call.
My embrace of McM’s points consists entirely of TL;DR.
Sometimes McTx and Count also, too. Brevity, people.
I’m an equal opportunity ignorer.
My embrace of McM’s points consists entirely of TL;DR.
Sometimes McTx and Count also, too. Brevity, people.
I’m an equal opportunity ignorer.
i’d hate for anyone to think i embrace Marxist anything.
might as well accuse me of embracing Druid resurrection methods.
i’d hate for anyone to think i embrace Marxist anything.
might as well accuse me of embracing Druid resurrection methods.
I’ve seen this formulation before. Who on the right actually says, “cut taxes for the wealthy, screw the workers and black people too and no birth control either.” …
Try reading the comments on the (quite mainstream and well written) Marginal Revolution economics blog, for instance.
I’s say around half of those commenting. The casual racism is at times breathtaking.
I’ve seen this formulation before. Who on the right actually says, “cut taxes for the wealthy, screw the workers and black people too and no birth control either.” …
Try reading the comments on the (quite mainstream and well written) Marginal Revolution economics blog, for instance.
I’s say around half of those commenting. The casual racism is at times breathtaking.
saying that is what conservatives want is like me saying that all liberals want is to control every aspect of our economic lives, create a huge dependency of people who need the left in power to send them welfare checks in exchange for their vote, to give into every left wing dictator anywhere in the world and have our thoughts and speech dictated by academic intersectionalists.
You know McKinney, it’s the weirdest thing, but that seems pretty close to what you have sometimes said, and certainly is word-for-word what many other voices on “the right” have said, and keep saying. If you’re comfortable castigating us as “the left” for things we have never agreed with (no-platforming, safe spaces etc etc), why can’t we do the same?
Conservative don’t believe gov’t should force employers of conscience to pay-directly or indirectly–for something that violates conscience.
I assume you’re comfortable with Christian Scientist businesses refusing to pay for any medical insurance at all, and Jehovah’s Witness businesses refusing to pay for anything which needs a blood transfusion? Actually, I don’t know if any businesses in the States have to offer medical insurance, and if not presumably that’s how they’d get round it, but surely there are other “matters of conscience” that you wouldn’t be so happy to make exceptions for? I’m rushing out, so don’t have time to search for the ridiculous prohibitions in various world religions, but I think you get my drift?
saying that is what conservatives want is like me saying that all liberals want is to control every aspect of our economic lives, create a huge dependency of people who need the left in power to send them welfare checks in exchange for their vote, to give into every left wing dictator anywhere in the world and have our thoughts and speech dictated by academic intersectionalists.
You know McKinney, it’s the weirdest thing, but that seems pretty close to what you have sometimes said, and certainly is word-for-word what many other voices on “the right” have said, and keep saying. If you’re comfortable castigating us as “the left” for things we have never agreed with (no-platforming, safe spaces etc etc), why can’t we do the same?
Conservative don’t believe gov’t should force employers of conscience to pay-directly or indirectly–for something that violates conscience.
I assume you’re comfortable with Christian Scientist businesses refusing to pay for any medical insurance at all, and Jehovah’s Witness businesses refusing to pay for anything which needs a blood transfusion? Actually, I don’t know if any businesses in the States have to offer medical insurance, and if not presumably that’s how they’d get round it, but surely there are other “matters of conscience” that you wouldn’t be so happy to make exceptions for? I’m rushing out, so don’t have time to search for the ridiculous prohibitions in various world religions, but I think you get my drift?
Conservative don’t believe gov’t should force employers of conscience to pay-directly or indirectly–for something that violates conscience…
This is possibly an excellent argument (amongst many others) for health insurance being provided by the state ?
“gov’t should force employers of conscience to pay-directly or indirectly…”
What about “taxpayers of conscience” who (for example) happen to be pacifists – do they merit similar consideration, or are their consciences less important ?
Conservative don’t believe gov’t should force employers of conscience to pay-directly or indirectly–for something that violates conscience…
This is possibly an excellent argument (amongst many others) for health insurance being provided by the state ?
“gov’t should force employers of conscience to pay-directly or indirectly…”
What about “taxpayers of conscience” who (for example) happen to be pacifists – do they merit similar consideration, or are their consciences less important ?
As for birth control, some congressbeings are on the record for wishing to make it illegal again*, at least the chemical variants (condoms seem OK with some of them, others dotch that particular question). I even remember some hot dispute about bringing it up already or waiting until after abortion has been made illegal. In other words some anti abortion activists see birth control as step two and just debate tactics about how and when to pursue it.
On the state level we have guys like Virginia AG Ken Cuccinelli who tried to make oral and anal sex forbidden by law (iirc in some states it is but the (quite old) laws are not enforced anymore).
But yeah, the liberal agenda is to make marriage illegal (except for perverts) and to turn all kids gay in public school. And we promote vaccination of girls to instigate them to a life of promiscuity, recreational abortion and general unwholesomeness.
*Santorum being the most prominent but not the only one.(‘One of the things I will talk about, that no president has talked about before, is the dangers of contraception in this country…. Many of the Christian faith have said, well, that’s okay, contraception is okay. It’s not okay. It’s a license to do things in a sexual realm that is counter to how things are supposed to be.’)
As for birth control, some congressbeings are on the record for wishing to make it illegal again*, at least the chemical variants (condoms seem OK with some of them, others dotch that particular question). I even remember some hot dispute about bringing it up already or waiting until after abortion has been made illegal. In other words some anti abortion activists see birth control as step two and just debate tactics about how and when to pursue it.
On the state level we have guys like Virginia AG Ken Cuccinelli who tried to make oral and anal sex forbidden by law (iirc in some states it is but the (quite old) laws are not enforced anymore).
But yeah, the liberal agenda is to make marriage illegal (except for perverts) and to turn all kids gay in public school. And we promote vaccination of girls to instigate them to a life of promiscuity, recreational abortion and general unwholesomeness.
*Santorum being the most prominent but not the only one.(‘One of the things I will talk about, that no president has talked about before, is the dangers of contraception in this country…. Many of the Christian faith have said, well, that’s okay, contraception is okay. It’s not okay. It’s a license to do things in a sexual realm that is counter to how things are supposed to be.’)
Mr. Watson said the city’s dogged prosecution had sunk his family into poverty after he lost his security clearance and was fired from his cybersecurity job, which paid more than $100,000 a year….
When the criminal justice system can crush a prosperous member of the middle class over a not wearing a seatbelt in a parked car – and the case still be unresolved five years later – there is something going on that I don’t see can be explained away by anything other than institutionalised racial animus.
Mr. Watson said the city’s dogged prosecution had sunk his family into poverty after he lost his security clearance and was fired from his cybersecurity job, which paid more than $100,000 a year….
When the criminal justice system can crush a prosperous member of the middle class over a not wearing a seatbelt in a parked car – and the case still be unresolved five years later – there is something going on that I don’t see can be explained away by anything other than institutionalised racial animus.
I’m just glad Obama’s folks didn’t try to tell all of us how to screw. Just imagine: sex rules for 200 million plus adults. Just what a free country needs….
There is a party, a significant number of whose ‘members’ wish to do precisely that. It isn’t the lefties…
I’m just glad Obama’s folks didn’t try to tell all of us how to screw. Just imagine: sex rules for 200 million plus adults. Just what a free country needs….
There is a party, a significant number of whose ‘members’ wish to do precisely that. It isn’t the lefties…
I, and I think almost everyone else here, is well aware of the fact that McT and Marty end up on the bottom of pile ups….
Quite.
One of the reasons I haven’t posted much the last couple of days is that the temperature seemed to have raised a bit too much for reasoned discussion… and then I got sucked back in.
Apologies, McT, if you feel overly piled on.
I, and I think almost everyone else here, is well aware of the fact that McT and Marty end up on the bottom of pile ups….
Quite.
One of the reasons I haven’t posted much the last couple of days is that the temperature seemed to have raised a bit too much for reasoned discussion… and then I got sucked back in.
Apologies, McT, if you feel overly piled on.
Thanks for the Marshall link lj.
Part of my Marxism involves umm historical memory. I can’t read Du Bois or Angela Davis with an attitude of total contempt and disgust at their beliefs. But I have better reasons.
Also, that say Deval Patrick can both be stopped for driving while black and be a VP of Bain Capital needs to be explained. However you see that, this is a social contradiction that I don’t feel is entirely explained by systemic racism.
Or why Jesse Jackson had a different kind of success in the 80s running for Pres compared to Obama, with slightly different but overlapping constituencies. That’s only twenty years, and essential human nature doesn’t change that fast. Capitalism can and does.
I read a lot of sociology and social theory, just finished a translated article on the history of Yoshiwara, Shimabara, Shinmachi(?), and most recent academics are educated in some derivative of critical theory.
For the record: 50% of what I read is about Japan, 25% about visual culture and social media, maybe 5-10% “relief” books (history of Trans-Siberian RR, biography of Van Morrison), maybe another 5-10% politics which will tell you how much direct “Theory I read
But this is the next paragraph in the cinema book I’m reading, if you thought the Bronner paragraphs were abstruse.
“Up to this point, I have suggested that the dimensionality of the close-up is neither small nor large. Its importance lies beyond the conventions of these relative dimensions. The close-up does not simply magnify the details of an interiority, nor does it merely define a fragment cut from its milieu. Fetishism my well end up contemplating finished works or practico-inert objects situated in a fixed frame of reference, but the analysis of the processes that mobilize these phantom objectivities can neither begin nor end at this point. I suggest that the significance of the close-up lies somewhere between the small and the large, between the inside and its exterior, and on the margins between these polarities or states of being. The faciality of the close-up defines a space of transformation.”
I just can’t read fiction anymore. Too abstract.
Thanks for the Marshall link lj.
Part of my Marxism involves umm historical memory. I can’t read Du Bois or Angela Davis with an attitude of total contempt and disgust at their beliefs. But I have better reasons.
Also, that say Deval Patrick can both be stopped for driving while black and be a VP of Bain Capital needs to be explained. However you see that, this is a social contradiction that I don’t feel is entirely explained by systemic racism.
Or why Jesse Jackson had a different kind of success in the 80s running for Pres compared to Obama, with slightly different but overlapping constituencies. That’s only twenty years, and essential human nature doesn’t change that fast. Capitalism can and does.
I read a lot of sociology and social theory, just finished a translated article on the history of Yoshiwara, Shimabara, Shinmachi(?), and most recent academics are educated in some derivative of critical theory.
For the record: 50% of what I read is about Japan, 25% about visual culture and social media, maybe 5-10% “relief” books (history of Trans-Siberian RR, biography of Van Morrison), maybe another 5-10% politics which will tell you how much direct “Theory I read
But this is the next paragraph in the cinema book I’m reading, if you thought the Bronner paragraphs were abstruse.
“Up to this point, I have suggested that the dimensionality of the close-up is neither small nor large. Its importance lies beyond the conventions of these relative dimensions. The close-up does not simply magnify the details of an interiority, nor does it merely define a fragment cut from its milieu. Fetishism my well end up contemplating finished works or practico-inert objects situated in a fixed frame of reference, but the analysis of the processes that mobilize these phantom objectivities can neither begin nor end at this point. I suggest that the significance of the close-up lies somewhere between the small and the large, between the inside and its exterior, and on the margins between these polarities or states of being. The faciality of the close-up defines a space of transformation.”
I just can’t read fiction anymore. Too abstract.
Although ultra-lefties tend to be as conservative about sex as conservatives are. Remember: “we have no sex in the USSR” (1986)
Orwell was not so far off about the attitude in Stalinist dictatorships.
In the former GDR condoms were not illegal but difficult to get since they were made for export not home consumption.
A teacher of mine once sent an anatomy atlas to colleagues in the GDR and got it returned by state authority because “pörnography* is forbidden in the DGR”. Reminds me of religious parents that tear certain pages out of their kids’ biology textbooks after failing to have the topic banned in the first place.
*misspelled to fool potential filters
Although ultra-lefties tend to be as conservative about sex as conservatives are. Remember: “we have no sex in the USSR” (1986)
Orwell was not so far off about the attitude in Stalinist dictatorships.
In the former GDR condoms were not illegal but difficult to get since they were made for export not home consumption.
A teacher of mine once sent an anatomy atlas to colleagues in the GDR and got it returned by state authority because “pörnography* is forbidden in the DGR”. Reminds me of religious parents that tear certain pages out of their kids’ biology textbooks after failing to have the topic banned in the first place.
*misspelled to fool potential filters
As to why fiction is abstract, well way too long, but to abstract is to remove from context, especially history and social being.
The close-up has to be analyzed historically (most old paintings are full or half body portraits, cepting Rembrandt), so why do we rely on it to convey emotion now. What changed. And most fiction is extended closeups and interiorities, a removal of the individual from context. Psychological novel.
As to why fiction is abstract, well way too long, but to abstract is to remove from context, especially history and social being.
The close-up has to be analyzed historically (most old paintings are full or half body portraits, cepting Rembrandt), so why do we rely on it to convey emotion now. What changed. And most fiction is extended closeups and interiorities, a removal of the individual from context. Psychological novel.
Last one
Last night’s movie was umm sp Kaurismaki’s Ariel 1988. The unluckiest sub-proletarians finding love and hope. Loved it. Second Finnish movie seen, I think.
Compare to Game of Thrones. Where the hell are the freakin farmers? Is life and politics about the important pretty people scheming and exchanging witticisms? Will Dany help the downtrodden? Why do we like this shite?
Last one
Last night’s movie was umm sp Kaurismaki’s Ariel 1988. The unluckiest sub-proletarians finding love and hope. Loved it. Second Finnish movie seen, I think.
Compare to Game of Thrones. Where the hell are the freakin farmers? Is life and politics about the important pretty people scheming and exchanging witticisms? Will Dany help the downtrodden? Why do we like this shite?
i appreciate mck’s thoughtful post at 5:02. lots in there, more than i’m able to address point by point right now.
suffice it to say, i’m not a conservative.
i appreciate mck’s thoughtful post at 5:02. lots in there, more than i’m able to address point by point right now.
suffice it to say, i’m not a conservative.
…is like me saying that all liberals want is to control every aspect of our economic lives
The Count was pretty explicit about not nationalizing the shoe industry.
…is like me saying that all liberals want is to control every aspect of our economic lives
The Count was pretty explicit about not nationalizing the shoe industry.
and what constitutes sexual assault (read the Atlantic, seriously)
and, for balance, be sure to read this article about how the author of that Atlantic series might be playing a little loose with her presentation of facts, and how she is definitely and deliberately pushing a very specific agenda.
the Jezebel piece is long but it seems well-researched and reasoned.
and what constitutes sexual assault (read the Atlantic, seriously)
and, for balance, be sure to read this article about how the author of that Atlantic series might be playing a little loose with her presentation of facts, and how she is definitely and deliberately pushing a very specific agenda.
the Jezebel piece is long but it seems well-researched and reasoned.
Conservative don’t believe gov’t should force employers of conscience to pay-directly or indirectly–for something that violates conscience…
This is possibly an excellent argument (amongst many others) for health insurance being provided by the state ?
But Nigel, that would just be the government forcing employers of conscience to pay (via taxes) for something that violates conscience. Which, in fact, I have seen served up as an argument against state health insurance.
Conservative don’t believe gov’t should force employers of conscience to pay-directly or indirectly–for something that violates conscience…
This is possibly an excellent argument (amongst many others) for health insurance being provided by the state ?
But Nigel, that would just be the government forcing employers of conscience to pay (via taxes) for something that violates conscience. Which, in fact, I have seen served up as an argument against state health insurance.
Which, in fact, I have seen served up as an argument against state
health insuranceanything.Which, in fact, I have seen served up as an argument against state
health insuranceanything.So it’s okay with these conservatives when conscientious objectors refuse to pay taxes to support war?
So it’s okay with these conservatives when conscientious objectors refuse to pay taxes to support war?
Janie, ROTFLOL
Janie, ROTFLOL
Breaking news in the Washington Post: Middle-class income hit highest level on record in 2016, Census Bureau reports.
“The Census said the uptick in earnings occurred because so many people found full-time jobs — or better-paying jobs — last year.
“America’s poverty rate also fell to 12.7 percent, the lowest since 2007, the year before the financial crisis hit.
The percent of Americans without health insurance for the entire year also dropped in 2016 to just 8.8 percent, largely thanks to expanding coverage under the Affordable Care Act.”
Obama’s presidency. Sigh.
Breaking news in the Washington Post: Middle-class income hit highest level on record in 2016, Census Bureau reports.
“The Census said the uptick in earnings occurred because so many people found full-time jobs — or better-paying jobs — last year.
“America’s poverty rate also fell to 12.7 percent, the lowest since 2007, the year before the financial crisis hit.
The percent of Americans without health insurance for the entire year also dropped in 2016 to just 8.8 percent, largely thanks to expanding coverage under the Affordable Care Act.”
Obama’s presidency. Sigh.
Obama’s presidency. Sigh.
Oh Christ. I don’t even have to go to weird sites. Moderate hell.
Loomis at LGM today
I don’t filter sapient cause I need to see the bullshit. Shouldn’t engage. Shouldn’t engage.
Obama’s presidency. Sigh.
Oh Christ. I don’t even have to go to weird sites. Moderate hell.
Loomis at LGM today
I don’t filter sapient cause I need to see the bullshit. Shouldn’t engage. Shouldn’t engage.
I don’t know if anyone else is hearing these, but we are still getting hammered with commercials featuring the line “during the on-going economic downturn”.
I don’t recall if it is for tax lawyers or people offering to get you out from under your credit cared debt — I’m the sort of person advertisers HATE. But apparently they think there is a significant audience who is convinced that the economy is still in the toilet. Even though it has been growing, not in a downturn, for a record number of quarters.
I don’t know if anyone else is hearing these, but we are still getting hammered with commercials featuring the line “during the on-going economic downturn”.
I don’t recall if it is for tax lawyers or people offering to get you out from under your credit cared debt — I’m the sort of person advertisers HATE. But apparently they think there is a significant audience who is convinced that the economy is still in the toilet. Even though it has been growing, not in a downturn, for a record number of quarters.
Let me also say that I am highly offended by offers to get people out of their debts to the IRS for pennies on the dollar. Damnit, I pay my taxes every year; why should they get rewarded for failing to pay theirs???
Let me also say that I am highly offended by offers to get people out of their debts to the IRS for pennies on the dollar. Damnit, I pay my taxes every year; why should they get rewarded for failing to pay theirs???
Shouldn’t engage. Shouldn’t engage.
can you engage enough to tell us what Loomis’ complaints about the way the unemployment rate is measured has to do with sapient’s link about middle-class income?
Shouldn’t engage. Shouldn’t engage.
can you engage enough to tell us what Loomis’ complaints about the way the unemployment rate is measured has to do with sapient’s link about middle-class income?
apparently they think there is a significant audience who is convinced that the economy is still in the toilet.
well, ya can’t Make America Great Again unless it’s in trouble somehow, now can ya?
apparently they think there is a significant audience who is convinced that the economy is still in the toilet.
well, ya can’t Make America Great Again unless it’s in trouble somehow, now can ya?
But it doesn’t have to be economic trouble. See some of the comments following
https://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2017/09/taking-cake
But it doesn’t have to be economic trouble. See some of the comments following
https://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2017/09/taking-cake
Let me also say that I am highly offended by offers to get people out of their debts to the IRS for pennies on the dollar. Damnit, I pay my taxes every year; why should they get rewarded for failing to pay theirs???
The stories I hear on the radio all involve businesses. You can’t put a business in jail. Assuming it’s been set up properly, you generally can’t hit up the individuals for the business taxes. And if the settlement is too big, the business goes belly up and the government gets nothing. The goal, as I understand most of the special rules, is to get the business back in the system and paying taxes going forward.
Let me also say that I am highly offended by offers to get people out of their debts to the IRS for pennies on the dollar. Damnit, I pay my taxes every year; why should they get rewarded for failing to pay theirs???
The stories I hear on the radio all involve businesses. You can’t put a business in jail. Assuming it’s been set up properly, you generally can’t hit up the individuals for the business taxes. And if the settlement is too big, the business goes belly up and the government gets nothing. The goal, as I understand most of the special rules, is to get the business back in the system and paying taxes going forward.
sapient’s link about middle-class income?
Think the long-term unemployed and discouraged workers and the incarcerated are included in those figures for median income?
And exactly what did Obama have to do with it? Signing bills written by Congress?
Black wealth 2006-2014, black wealth compared to white wealth same period. Never coming back. Never.
And that is something Obama can take credit and payoffs for: bank bailout including retaining mortgages and tranches at face value, sucky stimulus package, turn to austerity (who lost the gov’t jobs? blacks and women), little relief to states, vicious and cruel pretense at mortgage relief, extending most of the bush tax cuts, college debt (majority black). On and on.
The 1% housing booms ain’t the problem, it is upper middle class who compete and drive up housing prices just above lower middle class blacks hopes.
sapient’s link about middle-class income?
Think the long-term unemployed and discouraged workers and the incarcerated are included in those figures for median income?
And exactly what did Obama have to do with it? Signing bills written by Congress?
Black wealth 2006-2014, black wealth compared to white wealth same period. Never coming back. Never.
And that is something Obama can take credit and payoffs for: bank bailout including retaining mortgages and tranches at face value, sucky stimulus package, turn to austerity (who lost the gov’t jobs? blacks and women), little relief to states, vicious and cruel pretense at mortgage relief, extending most of the bush tax cuts, college debt (majority black). On and on.
The 1% housing booms ain’t the problem, it is upper middle class who compete and drive up housing prices just above lower middle class blacks hopes.
if only there was a way to harness the awesome power of the goalpost movers.
if only there was a way to harness the awesome power of the goalpost movers.
I am highly offended by offers to get people out of their debts to the IRS for pennies on the dollar. Damnit, I pay my taxes every year; why should they get rewarded for failing to pay theirs???
Because they can’t possibly pay theirs? What the lawyers advertise and what they deliver may differ substantially – shocking, I know.
Anyway, I know of one case where an individual was able to get out from under for pennies on the dollar. Without going into great detail, let me just say that the arrangements were no cause for celebration by my friend. Anecdotal, I know, but remember that the IRS is interested in getting what it can, not in being obstinate about a legally correct, but uncollectible amount.
I’ll add that the agents handle a lot of cases and try to resolve them as best they can while the agency is likely seriously understaffed. I’ve seen numbers, sorry, only vaguely recalled, about collections/agent that suggest that beefing up the staff would be hugely profitable to the Treasury.
Of course, there are (ahem) politicians who want to cut the staff, rather than increase it. These same politicians often style themselves as deeply concerned about the government’s finances, much as those who want to cut Medicaid often call themselves pro-life.
I am highly offended by offers to get people out of their debts to the IRS for pennies on the dollar. Damnit, I pay my taxes every year; why should they get rewarded for failing to pay theirs???
Because they can’t possibly pay theirs? What the lawyers advertise and what they deliver may differ substantially – shocking, I know.
Anyway, I know of one case where an individual was able to get out from under for pennies on the dollar. Without going into great detail, let me just say that the arrangements were no cause for celebration by my friend. Anecdotal, I know, but remember that the IRS is interested in getting what it can, not in being obstinate about a legally correct, but uncollectible amount.
I’ll add that the agents handle a lot of cases and try to resolve them as best they can while the agency is likely seriously understaffed. I’ve seen numbers, sorry, only vaguely recalled, about collections/agent that suggest that beefing up the staff would be hugely profitable to the Treasury.
Of course, there are (ahem) politicians who want to cut the staff, rather than increase it. These same politicians often style themselves as deeply concerned about the government’s finances, much as those who want to cut Medicaid often call themselves pro-life.
And exactly what did Obama have to do with it?
the stimulus package he got wasn’t everything it could have been, but it helped.
he derailed the GOP’s frequent attempts to cause a default.
basically, he did what any President should do: don’t break it.
And that is something Obama can take credit and payoffs for: bank bailout
maybe in your world, the massive chaos and subsequent suffering caused by the collapse of the financial sector would be a good thing, eventually. most everybody else disagrees.
Never coming back. Never.
prove it
And exactly what did Obama have to do with it?
the stimulus package he got wasn’t everything it could have been, but it helped.
he derailed the GOP’s frequent attempts to cause a default.
basically, he did what any President should do: don’t break it.
And that is something Obama can take credit and payoffs for: bank bailout
maybe in your world, the massive chaos and subsequent suffering caused by the collapse of the financial sector would be a good thing, eventually. most everybody else disagrees.
Never coming back. Never.
prove it
I just can’t read fiction anymore. Too abstract
Dammit, for a brief shining moment I thought this was an (excellent) joke.
I just can’t read fiction anymore. Too abstract
Dammit, for a brief shining moment I thought this was an (excellent) joke.
The stories I hear on the radio all involve businesses. You can’t put a business in jail. Assuming it’s been set up properly, you generally can’t hit up the individuals for the business taxes.
The ads I am hearing are explicitly targeting individuals, not businesses.
The stories I hear on the radio all involve businesses. You can’t put a business in jail. Assuming it’s been set up properly, you generally can’t hit up the individuals for the business taxes.
The ads I am hearing are explicitly targeting individuals, not businesses.
the stimulus package he got wasn’t everything it could have been, but it helped.
Depends on what “everything it could have been” means.
If it means “less than ideal,” then you are correct.
If it means “less than he could have gotten out of Congress,” then maybe not.
Now I personally think he used poor tactics, by not asking for a better package than what he thought he could get. Then, to the degree it was inadequate it would have been the GOP’s fault. But it is also possible that he was motivated by a sense of urgency to get something as soon as possible.
the stimulus package he got wasn’t everything it could have been, but it helped.
Depends on what “everything it could have been” means.
If it means “less than ideal,” then you are correct.
If it means “less than he could have gotten out of Congress,” then maybe not.
Now I personally think he used poor tactics, by not asking for a better package than what he thought he could get. Then, to the degree it was inadequate it would have been the GOP’s fault. But it is also possible that he was motivated by a sense of urgency to get something as soon as possible.
basically, he did what any President should do: don’t break it.
I thought Presidents were supposed to make things better. You set a very low bar.
And It is not true; the Obama administration made things better for a lot of people: the rich and Republicans.
basically, he did what any President should do: don’t break it.
I thought Presidents were supposed to make things better. You set a very low bar.
And It is not true; the Obama administration made things better for a lot of people: the rich and Republicans.
I am highly offended by offers to get people out of their debts to the IRS for pennies on the dollar. Damnit, I pay my taxes every year; why should they get rewarded for failing to pay theirs???
Should I feel guilty when my neighbor gets mugged because I didn’t give the mugger, when he mugged me, the benjamin in my shoe? 🙂
I am highly offended by offers to get people out of their debts to the IRS for pennies on the dollar. Damnit, I pay my taxes every year; why should they get rewarded for failing to pay theirs???
Should I feel guilty when my neighbor gets mugged because I didn’t give the mugger, when he mugged me, the benjamin in my shoe? 🙂
And exactly what did Obama have to do with it?
There is also the not-so-small matter of General Motors.
And exactly what did Obama have to do with it?
There is also the not-so-small matter of General Motors.
Bob, has there ever, in the history of the nation, been an administration which you think made things better?** Just trying to get a feel for where your standard lies.
** Alternatively, has there been an administration in any other country which did so? How are their people doing now? And why did they lose (they must have lost it, right?) the wonderfulness that they had?
Bob, has there ever, in the history of the nation, been an administration which you think made things better?** Just trying to get a feel for where your standard lies.
** Alternatively, has there been an administration in any other country which did so? How are their people doing now? And why did they lose (they must have lost it, right?) the wonderfulness that they had?
The ads I am hearing are explicitly targeting individuals, not businesses.
Hmmm. The only person I ever knew who was in a situation like that as an individual hadn’t filed a tax return for several years. When she did, the amount of actual tax she hadn’t paid was quite small. The billed amount for penalties and interest for not filing for all those years ran to an impressively large sum (tens of thousands). IIRC, the IRS forgave the penalties and interest during a temporary amnesty period, but she paid the small unpaid taxes.
One year I was a day late filing the forms for the small LLC my wife and I have due to a Post Office error. Zero tax owed. The IRS’s first position was that we owed a few hundred dollars: one month’s penalty, times two people, plus some minimum amount of interest. I got it straightened out and owed nothing, but damn! The penalties and interest would have piled up at a frightening rate.
How do you feel about people who paid their taxes through withholding but failed to file the paperwork? Nick ’em for thousands of dollars?
The ads I am hearing are explicitly targeting individuals, not businesses.
Hmmm. The only person I ever knew who was in a situation like that as an individual hadn’t filed a tax return for several years. When she did, the amount of actual tax she hadn’t paid was quite small. The billed amount for penalties and interest for not filing for all those years ran to an impressively large sum (tens of thousands). IIRC, the IRS forgave the penalties and interest during a temporary amnesty period, but she paid the small unpaid taxes.
One year I was a day late filing the forms for the small LLC my wife and I have due to a Post Office error. Zero tax owed. The IRS’s first position was that we owed a few hundred dollars: one month’s penalty, times two people, plus some minimum amount of interest. I got it straightened out and owed nothing, but damn! The penalties and interest would have piled up at a frightening rate.
How do you feel about people who paid their taxes through withholding but failed to file the paperwork? Nick ’em for thousands of dollars?
I thought Presidents were supposed to make things better. You set a very low bar.
they are.
as i’m sure you’ll agree, history is full of Presidents who fuck things up.
I thought Presidents were supposed to make things better. You set a very low bar.
they are.
as i’m sure you’ll agree, history is full of Presidents who fuck things up.
I have far less of an issue with someone who paid the taxes, but fell short on the paperwork. It’s the folks who just didn’t pay, spent the money instead, and now get off without paying the tax (and interest).
Penalties are a separate discussion. As you say, they can be draconian for relatively minor oversights.
And it’s possible to find yourself in a mess (I speak from first hand experience) if you are part (minority) owner of a business (S corp or LLC) which routinely doesn’t get its books done and tax documents (K-1s) out until the end of the late filing period. Not so much because that means you end up filing late as because it means that you have no clue how much nominal income you had and should pay estimated taxes on. By the time you know, the interest (and penalties) can run pretty high.
I have far less of an issue with someone who paid the taxes, but fell short on the paperwork. It’s the folks who just didn’t pay, spent the money instead, and now get off without paying the tax (and interest).
Penalties are a separate discussion. As you say, they can be draconian for relatively minor oversights.
And it’s possible to find yourself in a mess (I speak from first hand experience) if you are part (minority) owner of a business (S corp or LLC) which routinely doesn’t get its books done and tax documents (K-1s) out until the end of the late filing period. Not so much because that means you end up filing late as because it means that you have no clue how much nominal income you had and should pay estimated taxes on. By the time you know, the interest (and penalties) can run pretty high.
just wait till the effects of the credit info breach hit the IRS.
you can cancel a credit card, or get a new CC number. getting the IRS off your back? hah.
just wait till the effects of the credit info breach hit the IRS.
you can cancel a credit card, or get a new CC number. getting the IRS off your back? hah.
Dean Baker on job numbers.
Dean Baker on job numbers.
So it’s okay with these conservatives when conscientious objectors refuse to pay taxes to support war?
Some of those people have gone to jail. Willingly. To support the point they are making, and to fulfill the dictates of their conscience.
Don’t know too many right winger “people of conscience” who have taken on years or decades of jail time to stay true to their convictions.
One thing I’ll say for lefty/liberal/progressive people of conscience, they will take it to the mat.
This brings me to a though about McManus’ comment about intransigence.
I am in pretty damned close to complete agreement that it’s the intransigence of folks who are getting shafted that makes things change.
Our points of difference are, I think, about how intransigence is expressed, effectively, in this country, historically.
With rare exceptions, violence has not been useful. It’s mostly being willing to put yourself on the receiving end of a punch that makes things change.
I’m talking about here, obviously if your oppressor is Hitler, taking a beating or a jail term is not going to change things.
But in our history, it’s usually the way big things happen. Eventually.
So it’s okay with these conservatives when conscientious objectors refuse to pay taxes to support war?
Some of those people have gone to jail. Willingly. To support the point they are making, and to fulfill the dictates of their conscience.
Don’t know too many right winger “people of conscience” who have taken on years or decades of jail time to stay true to their convictions.
One thing I’ll say for lefty/liberal/progressive people of conscience, they will take it to the mat.
This brings me to a though about McManus’ comment about intransigence.
I am in pretty damned close to complete agreement that it’s the intransigence of folks who are getting shafted that makes things change.
Our points of difference are, I think, about how intransigence is expressed, effectively, in this country, historically.
With rare exceptions, violence has not been useful. It’s mostly being willing to put yourself on the receiving end of a punch that makes things change.
I’m talking about here, obviously if your oppressor is Hitler, taking a beating or a jail term is not going to change things.
But in our history, it’s usually the way big things happen. Eventually.
Bob, has there ever, in the history of the nation, been an administration which you think made things better?
Oh, the usual:Lincoln, FDR, LBJ. Early Congresses under Nixon were pretty good. Truman was a terribly mixed bag, but Empire got rolling strong. Clinton raised taxes early, and then sold out to Wall Street.
But it always a matter of: Good for whom and at what price?
The model is early FDR: spit on Hoover’s deal, raised taxes on everybody and spent it, purt near nationalized the banks*, inflated like a madman. The devaluation help lighten a ton of debt. (Fucked Japan so horribly helped foster the war, also France if I remember)
* For a while most banks had a young lefty outside asshole on site auditing everything. More jobs for liberals.
Overseas? Post war Britain and France, etc. Japan had hopes until they got in the way of Empire. Scandinavia (?) had good moments.
USSR to late 20s, and honestly, considering what they were facing, all of capitalism with Hitler as the spearpoint, surviving was an achievement, at great costs.
Bob, has there ever, in the history of the nation, been an administration which you think made things better?
Oh, the usual:Lincoln, FDR, LBJ. Early Congresses under Nixon were pretty good. Truman was a terribly mixed bag, but Empire got rolling strong. Clinton raised taxes early, and then sold out to Wall Street.
But it always a matter of: Good for whom and at what price?
The model is early FDR: spit on Hoover’s deal, raised taxes on everybody and spent it, purt near nationalized the banks*, inflated like a madman. The devaluation help lighten a ton of debt. (Fucked Japan so horribly helped foster the war, also France if I remember)
* For a while most banks had a young lefty outside asshole on site auditing everything. More jobs for liberals.
Overseas? Post war Britain and France, etc. Japan had hopes until they got in the way of Empire. Scandinavia (?) had good moments.
USSR to late 20s, and honestly, considering what they were facing, all of capitalism with Hitler as the spearpoint, surviving was an achievement, at great costs.
I also have some affection for the pan-Arabist era: Nassar, Saddam, Qaddafi. Standards of living rose very well for ordinary people, even improvements and opportunities for women, and resistance to Empire was still conceivable.
I also have some affection for the pan-Arabist era: Nassar, Saddam, Qaddafi. Standards of living rose very well for ordinary people, even improvements and opportunities for women, and resistance to Empire was still conceivable.
It’s the folks who just didn’t pay, spent the money instead, and now get off without paying the tax (and interest).
Yeah, I’m much less forgiving about people who just didn’t pay tens of thousands of dollars in taxes. Of course, I’m trying to figure out how they could manage that without a business of some sort that that income is running through. I should go ask my friend — the one who says, “If you’re not getting audited every few years, you’re not trying hard enough.”
It’s the folks who just didn’t pay, spent the money instead, and now get off without paying the tax (and interest).
Yeah, I’m much less forgiving about people who just didn’t pay tens of thousands of dollars in taxes. Of course, I’m trying to figure out how they could manage that without a business of some sort that that income is running through. I should go ask my friend — the one who says, “If you’re not getting audited every few years, you’re not trying hard enough.”
I’m trying to figure out how they could manage that without a business of some sort that that income is running through
I’d guess some combination of self-employment/contracting and investment income. That is, stuff that doesn’t get automatic withholding from the payer.
Even if they own the business, which employs them (writing off their income as a business expense) — and so is liable to other IRS penalties for not doing the withholding….
I’m trying to figure out how they could manage that without a business of some sort that that income is running through
I’d guess some combination of self-employment/contracting and investment income. That is, stuff that doesn’t get automatic withholding from the payer.
Even if they own the business, which employs them (writing off their income as a business expense) — and so is liable to other IRS penalties for not doing the withholding….
I’d guess some combination of self-employment/contracting and investment income. That is, stuff that doesn’t get automatic withholding from the payer.
I was a self-employed contractor for years. Easy as pie not to bother to pay your quarterly estimated taxes.
My clients were businesses that filed 1099s, but I always paid my taxes so I don’t know what would happen if the IRS got 1099s but no 1040 from the contractor.
I would guess it’s even easier to evade paying if your clients are private citizens who don’t file 1099s. Not casting aspersions, but let’s say for the sake of illustration the person who mows or plows for you, or does some plumbing or carpentry.
I’d guess some combination of self-employment/contracting and investment income. That is, stuff that doesn’t get automatic withholding from the payer.
I was a self-employed contractor for years. Easy as pie not to bother to pay your quarterly estimated taxes.
My clients were businesses that filed 1099s, but I always paid my taxes so I don’t know what would happen if the IRS got 1099s but no 1040 from the contractor.
I would guess it’s even easier to evade paying if your clients are private citizens who don’t file 1099s. Not casting aspersions, but let’s say for the sake of illustration the person who mows or plows for you, or does some plumbing or carpentry.
we owed tens of thousands last year. this was due to taking money out of an inherited IRA for the purpose of installing solar panels. the state would have given us a tax credit for installing the solar panels which would have completely offset the taxes on the IRA money. but then our builder cashed that check and went bankrupt without installing solar anything. so, we were stuck without the money, but with the taxes due.
i guess we could have refused to pay… ? that would be fun, i’m sure.
we owed tens of thousands last year. this was due to taking money out of an inherited IRA for the purpose of installing solar panels. the state would have given us a tax credit for installing the solar panels which would have completely offset the taxes on the IRA money. but then our builder cashed that check and went bankrupt without installing solar anything. so, we were stuck without the money, but with the taxes due.
i guess we could have refused to pay… ? that would be fun, i’m sure.
but then our builder cashed that check and went bankrupt without installing solar anything. so, we were stuck without the money, but with the taxes due.
That effin’ blows.
but then our builder cashed that check and went bankrupt without installing solar anything. so, we were stuck without the money, but with the taxes due.
That effin’ blows.
That effin’ blows.
Man, does it ever.
So sorry cleek.
That effin’ blows.
Man, does it ever.
So sorry cleek.
I’ve seen you talk about this chez vous, cleek, and I just haven’t known what to say. It’s truly awful, and I too am so sorry, FWIW (not much of course).
I’ve seen you talk about this chez vous, cleek, and I just haven’t known what to say. It’s truly awful, and I too am so sorry, FWIW (not much of course).
thanks all.
just wanted to mention one way to owe a lot in taxes. i suppose it’s not a common way.
thanks all.
just wanted to mention one way to owe a lot in taxes. i suppose it’s not a common way.
I would guess it’s even easier to evade paying if your clients are private citizens who don’t file 1099s. Not casting aspersions, but let’s say for the sake of illustration the person who mows or plows for you, or does some plumbing or carpentry.
The US has the smallest shadow economy, 5.4% of GDP, of most countries. Some countries’ shadow economies are over 30%.
The Countries With The Largest Shadow Economies
I would guess it’s even easier to evade paying if your clients are private citizens who don’t file 1099s. Not casting aspersions, but let’s say for the sake of illustration the person who mows or plows for you, or does some plumbing or carpentry.
The US has the smallest shadow economy, 5.4% of GDP, of most countries. Some countries’ shadow economies are over 30%.
The Countries With The Largest Shadow Economies
CharlesWT: The US has the smallest shadow economy, 5.4% of GDP, of most countries. Some countries’ shadow economies are over 30%.
I saw Ireland’s in operation when I used to go there a lot.
I was alluding to it not so much to make a claim about the general phenomenon as to address how easy it is to not pay taxes if you don’t want to, riffing off the exchange between Michael Cain and wj.
It’s sort of like the poor person’s substitute for having an army of tax lawyers.
*****
CharlesWT: I can’t look at the Forbes link because I use an adblocker and I’m not interested enough to whitelist Forbes. But I went looking for state-level data because I’m willing to bet that my (poor, heavily rural) state of Maine has one of the larger ones by % among the 50 states.
Lo and behold the first thing I came upon says that the state with the smallest shadow economy is Delaware at 7.28% of GDP, and the largest is Mississippi at 9.54%. How that squares with an overall US shadow economy of 5.4% I have no idea.
Lies, damned lies, and statistics, probably. 😉
CharlesWT: The US has the smallest shadow economy, 5.4% of GDP, of most countries. Some countries’ shadow economies are over 30%.
I saw Ireland’s in operation when I used to go there a lot.
I was alluding to it not so much to make a claim about the general phenomenon as to address how easy it is to not pay taxes if you don’t want to, riffing off the exchange between Michael Cain and wj.
It’s sort of like the poor person’s substitute for having an army of tax lawyers.
*****
CharlesWT: I can’t look at the Forbes link because I use an adblocker and I’m not interested enough to whitelist Forbes. But I went looking for state-level data because I’m willing to bet that my (poor, heavily rural) state of Maine has one of the larger ones by % among the 50 states.
Lo and behold the first thing I came upon says that the state with the smallest shadow economy is Delaware at 7.28% of GDP, and the largest is Mississippi at 9.54%. How that squares with an overall US shadow economy of 5.4% I have no idea.
Lies, damned lies, and statistics, probably. 😉
By dropping the charges now, Ferguson Prosecuting Attorney Lee Clayton Goodman lends credibility to Watson’s case against Boyd and the city, which accuses them of violating his rights under the Fourth, First, and 14th amendments. The New York Times says Goodman “declined to discuss the matter.”
After 5 Years, Ferguson Drops Bogus Charges That Cost Navy Veteran His Job: Fred Watson, who was mentioned in a DOJ report on abuses by Ferguson police, says he was arrested and prosecuted for no good reason.
By dropping the charges now, Ferguson Prosecuting Attorney Lee Clayton Goodman lends credibility to Watson’s case against Boyd and the city, which accuses them of violating his rights under the Fourth, First, and 14th amendments. The New York Times says Goodman “declined to discuss the matter.”
After 5 Years, Ferguson Drops Bogus Charges That Cost Navy Veteran His Job: Fred Watson, who was mentioned in a DOJ report on abuses by Ferguson police, says he was arrested and prosecuted for no good reason.
cleek,
next time, some options: (1.)ask the contractor to bond the work; or (2.) joint check the supplier; or (3.) No pay until it is on site and installed AND still joint check; (4.) and hold 10% retainage on all progress billings.
I’ve had sleazy subs invoice for work by their tier subs then go broke and then have to pay the tier sub again.
We had a steel fabricator who delivered the first big load of structural steel, and closed his doors the minute he cashed our check. Then we had to pay the steel wholesaler, too. 🙁
Learned the hard way….as usual!
cleek,
next time, some options: (1.)ask the contractor to bond the work; or (2.) joint check the supplier; or (3.) No pay until it is on site and installed AND still joint check; (4.) and hold 10% retainage on all progress billings.
I’ve had sleazy subs invoice for work by their tier subs then go broke and then have to pay the tier sub again.
We had a steel fabricator who delivered the first big load of structural steel, and closed his doors the minute he cashed our check. Then we had to pay the steel wholesaler, too. 🙁
Learned the hard way….as usual!
Oh, the usual:Lincoln, FDR, LBJ.
I see bob’s bark, like mine, may be worse than his bite.
Read Caro’s biography of LBJ. Good stuff….but loooooooooooooooooonnnnnnng.
Oh, the usual:Lincoln, FDR, LBJ.
I see bob’s bark, like mine, may be worse than his bite.
Read Caro’s biography of LBJ. Good stuff….but loooooooooooooooooonnnnnnng.
I see bob’s bark, like mine, may be worse than his bite.
Somewhat comforting!
As to Caro’s biography, I need to schedule my reading time better. Probably will be more likely in a few months.
I see bob’s bark, like mine, may be worse than his bite.
Somewhat comforting!
As to Caro’s biography, I need to schedule my reading time better. Probably will be more likely in a few months.
Referring back to the Mao discussion…. China is planning to invest $30bn in Haiti – whose GDP iis $8bn.
https://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Work-Begins-Soon-to-Bring-Haiti-into-Silk-Road-After-China-Invests-US30-billion-to-Develop-Infrastructure-20170901-0003.html
Looks to be a pretty decent chance of transforming one of the world’s more impoverished societies for the better…
For all the criticisms one can make of Chinese society (& indeed the way they manage their foreign aid/investment), they do seem to have adopted a role more or less abandoned by the US government.
It’s not that the US isn’t still a massive aid donor in absolute terms – more that it appears to have lost the ambition which China is clearly developing.
Referring back to the Mao discussion…. China is planning to invest $30bn in Haiti – whose GDP iis $8bn.
https://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Work-Begins-Soon-to-Bring-Haiti-into-Silk-Road-After-China-Invests-US30-billion-to-Develop-Infrastructure-20170901-0003.html
Looks to be a pretty decent chance of transforming one of the world’s more impoverished societies for the better…
For all the criticisms one can make of Chinese society (& indeed the way they manage their foreign aid/investment), they do seem to have adopted a role more or less abandoned by the US government.
It’s not that the US isn’t still a massive aid donor in absolute terms – more that it appears to have lost the ambition which China is clearly developing.
funny climate change sideshow act:
scientists look at the 3% of climate studies papers that claim climate change is not man-made, try to reproduce their results and … they find that every single paper has a flaw in methodology, assumptions or data.
—
bobbyp. yeah, learning the hard way.
we were foolishly trusting the contractor when he said he needed up-front payment on some things. we figured that was just the way some parts of the process worked. and we were assisted in this mistake by the fact that our bank’s inspector kept signing-off on everything. we assumed that if the bank was OK with how the project was going that it must be OK. why would they keep giving us checks if the builder was so far off from standard practice. but, no. and when we asked them how they could have missed what was going on, they just gave us hand-waving.
next time will be very different.
funny climate change sideshow act:
scientists look at the 3% of climate studies papers that claim climate change is not man-made, try to reproduce their results and … they find that every single paper has a flaw in methodology, assumptions or data.
—
bobbyp. yeah, learning the hard way.
we were foolishly trusting the contractor when he said he needed up-front payment on some things. we figured that was just the way some parts of the process worked. and we were assisted in this mistake by the fact that our bank’s inspector kept signing-off on everything. we assumed that if the bank was OK with how the project was going that it must be OK. why would they keep giving us checks if the builder was so far off from standard practice. but, no. and when we asked them how they could have missed what was going on, they just gave us hand-waving.
next time will be very different.
What sort of contractor were you using, cleek? Was he more or less a one-man show and not one of the known solar companies?
If I do solar, which I probably will soon, I almost have no choice but to use one of the bigger companies, because I’m not really in a position to buy the system. I’m pretty much stuck with leasing, even though I know it’s the less financially advantageous option in the long run.
What sort of contractor were you using, cleek? Was he more or less a one-man show and not one of the known solar companies?
If I do solar, which I probably will soon, I almost have no choice but to use one of the bigger companies, because I’m not really in a position to buy the system. I’m pretty much stuck with leasing, even though I know it’s the less financially advantageous option in the long run.
the builder was ‘just a guy’, yeah. he was ‘DBA’, but it was really just him and a couple of employees (which he screwed over by not paying their withholding taxes for a year).
the solar contractor was a local firm, still around. but they were never actually involved with our house. the builder basically lied about having them ready to do the work. he never talked to them about our house at all.
the builder was ‘just a guy’, yeah. he was ‘DBA’, but it was really just him and a couple of employees (which he screwed over by not paying their withholding taxes for a year).
the solar contractor was a local firm, still around. but they were never actually involved with our house. the builder basically lied about having them ready to do the work. he never talked to them about our house at all.
What an a$$hole
What an a$$hole
we were also going to do geothermal H/AC, since NC was offering tax credits for both. we’d have been almost cost-free on utilities.
thanks to the big brains in the NC GOP, those tax credits are gone.
we were also going to do geothermal H/AC, since NC was offering tax credits for both. we’d have been almost cost-free on utilities.
thanks to the big brains in the NC GOP, those tax credits are gone.
Step 1 is definitely work with the solar company directly. More control, and you don’t have to pay the middle man.
We did solar back in the early 2000, and have been delighted with it. It paid for itself in a handful of years.
A couple of thoughts:
– You might want to look at sizing your system for zero net cost rather than zero net usage. Depending on your usage pattern (and whether your utility charges/pays a higher rate for peak times, it might be a smaller and cheaper system.
– On the other hand, you may find that your usage grows over time. Ours certainly did. (Mostly a matter of acquiring more computers. Although global warming resulting in running the A/C more also contributed.) The technology is evolving so fast that just adding a couple more panels may not be a viable option by the time you find you need it.
– Harden your system. The one significant problem we had was from squirrels chewing on the wiring (on a second story roof!). There’s a lot to be said for having all the wiring, even if it looks like heavy cables, in steel pipes.
Step 1 is definitely work with the solar company directly. More control, and you don’t have to pay the middle man.
We did solar back in the early 2000, and have been delighted with it. It paid for itself in a handful of years.
A couple of thoughts:
– You might want to look at sizing your system for zero net cost rather than zero net usage. Depending on your usage pattern (and whether your utility charges/pays a higher rate for peak times, it might be a smaller and cheaper system.
– On the other hand, you may find that your usage grows over time. Ours certainly did. (Mostly a matter of acquiring more computers. Although global warming resulting in running the A/C more also contributed.) The technology is evolving so fast that just adding a couple more panels may not be a viable option by the time you find you need it.
– Harden your system. The one significant problem we had was from squirrels chewing on the wiring (on a second story roof!). There’s a lot to be said for having all the wiring, even if it looks like heavy cables, in steel pipes.
just him and a couple of employees (which he screwed over by not paying their withholding taxes for a year).
Unless I am mistaken, which could easily be, that’s on the contractor and not the employees who had taxes withheld. And it’s bad.
just him and a couple of employees (which he screwed over by not paying their withholding taxes for a year).
Unless I am mistaken, which could easily be, that’s on the contractor and not the employees who had taxes withheld. And it’s bad.
Just because it’s an Open Thread, check out xkcd’s delightful takedown of the new iPhone. https://xkcd.com/1889/
I was particularly taken with the “High thread count CPU” feature.
Just because it’s an Open Thread, check out xkcd’s delightful takedown of the new iPhone. https://xkcd.com/1889/
I was particularly taken with the “High thread count CPU” feature.
wj thanks for the xkcd link, it made me laugh so hard I almost couldn’t breathe.
I like the version # thing especially much. The article I saw yesterday (?) mentioned that “X” is pronounced “ten” twice in the first two paragraphs. That’s when I stopped reading, so I don’t know if there was a third mention, or a fourth, or an 1876th.
wj thanks for the xkcd link, it made me laugh so hard I almost couldn’t breathe.
I like the version # thing especially much. The article I saw yesterday (?) mentioned that “X” is pronounced “ten” twice in the first two paragraphs. That’s when I stopped reading, so I don’t know if there was a third mention, or a fourth, or an 1876th.
I see bob’s bark, like mine, may be worse than his bite.
I have rage issues, and seem to be somewhat reflexively antisocial, especially in extended relationships. When it is demanded that I jump through the ritualistic social hoops and cues, like North Country Girl says, I have to fight very hard not to rebel.
“What about that mass murderer Stalin?”
“Well, you know, …”
I wouldn’t get along with Socrates at all
“Well, let us start. What is justice?”
“Justice is eating the heart of a small child for breakfast every day.”
I’m kinda ok with grotesque immaturity. Probably done as little real damage to others as anyone you know, although haven’t helped much either. Solitude is my lifelong companion and comfort.
I see bob’s bark, like mine, may be worse than his bite.
I have rage issues, and seem to be somewhat reflexively antisocial, especially in extended relationships. When it is demanded that I jump through the ritualistic social hoops and cues, like North Country Girl says, I have to fight very hard not to rebel.
“What about that mass murderer Stalin?”
“Well, you know, …”
I wouldn’t get along with Socrates at all
“Well, let us start. What is justice?”
“Justice is eating the heart of a small child for breakfast every day.”
I’m kinda ok with grotesque immaturity. Probably done as little real damage to others as anyone you know, although haven’t helped much either. Solitude is my lifelong companion and comfort.
that’s on the contractor and not the employees who had taxes withheld.
yeah, could be. when i talked to his foreman (who was trying to get the job of finishing the house for us), he told me about the withholding issue. he thought he was going to be on the hook for it. but this was just days after we all found out what was going on, so it’s possible he didn’t have all the facts about his situation yet.
I was particularly taken with the “High thread count CPU” feature.
so smooth and yet so supple! warm, too!
that’s on the contractor and not the employees who had taxes withheld.
yeah, could be. when i talked to his foreman (who was trying to get the job of finishing the house for us), he told me about the withholding issue. he thought he was going to be on the hook for it. but this was just days after we all found out what was going on, so it’s possible he didn’t have all the facts about his situation yet.
I was particularly taken with the “High thread count CPU” feature.
so smooth and yet so supple! warm, too!
The Audubon Society app that identifies birds and lets you control their flight got me for some reason.
The Audubon Society app that identifies birds and lets you control their flight got me for some reason.
When it is demanded that I jump through the ritualistic social hoops and cues, like North Country Girl says, I have to fight very hard not to rebel.
I hope it’s not just ritualistic social hoops and cues, bob, but maybe it is just part of the dance of being able to maintain the conversation, without someone (anyone) being driven to stalk out in fury and/or paranoia. It’s because I value the exchange of views, and don’t want that to end or degrade. I’ve certainly noticed in the past your tendency to take terrible offence when you thought someone (lj) had implicitly insulted you, when he meant no such thing and in fact clearly respected you a great deal. However, each to their own, and I have no doubt that my attempts to keep things civil are extremely annoying to some (certainly sapient, and I guess you as well). Oh well, that’s life I guess.
When it is demanded that I jump through the ritualistic social hoops and cues, like North Country Girl says, I have to fight very hard not to rebel.
I hope it’s not just ritualistic social hoops and cues, bob, but maybe it is just part of the dance of being able to maintain the conversation, without someone (anyone) being driven to stalk out in fury and/or paranoia. It’s because I value the exchange of views, and don’t want that to end or degrade. I’ve certainly noticed in the past your tendency to take terrible offence when you thought someone (lj) had implicitly insulted you, when he meant no such thing and in fact clearly respected you a great deal. However, each to their own, and I have no doubt that my attempts to keep things civil are extremely annoying to some (certainly sapient, and I guess you as well). Oh well, that’s life I guess.
cleek,
I assume you took out a loan against the house equity to finance the job…so the bank could care less about managing the contractor…not their job.
whudda’ mess.
GFNC
Oh well, that’s life I guess.
For sure. We need a “snark font” like commenters employ at LGM.
cleek,
I assume you took out a loan against the house equity to finance the job…so the bank could care less about managing the contractor…not their job.
whudda’ mess.
GFNC
Oh well, that’s life I guess.
For sure. We need a “snark font” like commenters employ at LGM.
Cleek,
Tell the foreman to make sure he has a W-2, and if not that he hangs on to pay stubs and files a form something-or-other with the IRS. He can Google “my employer didn’t submit my taxes” or something similar to get details.
Cleek,
Tell the foreman to make sure he has a W-2, and if not that he hangs on to pay stubs and files a form something-or-other with the IRS. He can Google “my employer didn’t submit my taxes” or something similar to get details.
However, each to their own, and I have no doubt that my attempts to keep things civil are extremely annoying to some (certainly sapient, and I guess you as well).
Calm down, please, GftNC. I just don’t like it when you soft-sell people’s views, although you’re certainly entitled to your interpretation.
However, each to their own, and I have no doubt that my attempts to keep things civil are extremely annoying to some (certainly sapient, and I guess you as well).
Calm down, please, GftNC. I just don’t like it when you soft-sell people’s views, although you’re certainly entitled to your interpretation.
…someone (lj) had implicitly insulted you, when he meant no such thing and in fact clearly respected you a great deal.
Foucault, I think focused a little too much on the negative manifestations of everyday power, and we are lucky that his successors demonstrated that often what feels to the initiator to be kindness, flattery, or benign ritual…for instance the gaze, the wolf whistle or inappropriate compliment… are the more powerful means of enforcing hegemonic hierarchies.
And no doubt, often it is projection and paranoia. I may have excessive empathy for the asbergerish and the abject. Years on skid row have made me too free and unsyncopated.
An everyday hermeneutic of suspicion is too hard on everybody, and I can only apologize with a hope that I am the one hurt the more.
…someone (lj) had implicitly insulted you, when he meant no such thing and in fact clearly respected you a great deal.
Foucault, I think focused a little too much on the negative manifestations of everyday power, and we are lucky that his successors demonstrated that often what feels to the initiator to be kindness, flattery, or benign ritual…for instance the gaze, the wolf whistle or inappropriate compliment… are the more powerful means of enforcing hegemonic hierarchies.
And no doubt, often it is projection and paranoia. I may have excessive empathy for the asbergerish and the abject. Years on skid row have made me too free and unsyncopated.
An everyday hermeneutic of suspicion is too hard on everybody, and I can only apologize with a hope that I am the one hurt the more.
often what feels to the initiator to be kindness, flattery, or benign ritual…for instance the gaze, the wolf whistle or inappropriate compliment… are the more powerful means of enforcing hegemonic hierarchies.
This sounds (although I may be misinterpreting) like you are saying that kindness is a bad thing. Usually, or at least often.
But it seems to me that lack of kindness would be far more a means of “enforcing hegemonic hierarchies.”
often what feels to the initiator to be kindness, flattery, or benign ritual…for instance the gaze, the wolf whistle or inappropriate compliment… are the more powerful means of enforcing hegemonic hierarchies.
This sounds (although I may be misinterpreting) like you are saying that kindness is a bad thing. Usually, or at least often.
But it seems to me that lack of kindness would be far more a means of “enforcing hegemonic hierarchies.”
You’re so much prettier when you smile, wj. (Maybe I think I’m being kind. Do you?)
You’re so much prettier when you smile, wj. (Maybe I think I’m being kind. Do you?)
“enforcing hegemonic hierarchies”
my least-favorite Yes album
“enforcing hegemonic hierarchies”
my least-favorite Yes album
This sounds (although I may be misinterpreting) like you are saying that kindness is a bad thing. Usually, or at least often.
Sometimes. Depends on the unconscious power relations and recognition of agency.
Gayatri Spivak, “Can the Subaltern Speak,” about Western attempts to stop a young Hindu woman from climbing on her husbands funeral pyre, addresses this somewhat.
Consider 2:00 a fart from badly digested post-structuralism. Believe it or not, and understanding there is so much irony I no longer know myself, I consider myself ridiculous and silly, and am laughing at myself not you while unsuccessfully trying to think. Sometimes I wonder if I am hoping to be ignored until I go back to my reading.
But…addictive webs are addictive, and am linking some self-deprecation over at the Hurricane Bob thread.
This sounds (although I may be misinterpreting) like you are saying that kindness is a bad thing. Usually, or at least often.
Sometimes. Depends on the unconscious power relations and recognition of agency.
Gayatri Spivak, “Can the Subaltern Speak,” about Western attempts to stop a young Hindu woman from climbing on her husbands funeral pyre, addresses this somewhat.
Consider 2:00 a fart from badly digested post-structuralism. Believe it or not, and understanding there is so much irony I no longer know myself, I consider myself ridiculous and silly, and am laughing at myself not you while unsuccessfully trying to think. Sometimes I wonder if I am hoping to be ignored until I go back to my reading.
But…addictive webs are addictive, and am linking some self-deprecation over at the Hurricane Bob thread.
You’re so much prettier when you smile, wj. (Maybe I think I’m being kind. Do you?)
I’m having serious trouble wrapping my head around the idea of anyone calling me “pretty”….
You’re so much prettier when you smile, wj. (Maybe I think I’m being kind. Do you?)
I’m having serious trouble wrapping my head around the idea of anyone calling me “pretty”….
whelp, this isn’t great.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/09/13/black-lives-matter-targets-jefferson-monument-in-charlottesville.html
whelp, this isn’t great.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/09/13/black-lives-matter-targets-jefferson-monument-in-charlottesville.html
Letter from Theresa Sullivan (president of UVA) that appeared in my inbox this morning:
I thought it was a good response.
Letter from Theresa Sullivan (president of UVA) that appeared in my inbox this morning:
I thought it was a good response.
yeah, i like that, too.
yeah, i like that, too.
I thought it was a good response.
thirded
I thought it was a good response.
thirded
Yeah, moderate and reasonable, and moderately accepting. And the sacred ground was unshrouded.
Seal of Virginia …woman with law in one arm and violence in the other
Jokingly explicated, by the right as far back as the Civil War, but also by the Black Panthers (I think) in the 60s as:
“I’ll be reasonable when you get your foot off my neck.”
Yeah, moderate and reasonable, and moderately accepting. And the sacred ground was unshrouded.
Seal of Virginia …woman with law in one arm and violence in the other
Jokingly explicated, by the right as far back as the Civil War, but also by the Black Panthers (I think) in the 60s as:
“I’ll be reasonable when you get your foot off my neck.”
“enforcing hegemonic hierarchies”
my least-favorite Yes album
Made me laugh out loud (very rare these days).
bob mcm @ 02.00 p.m.: got it.
“enforcing hegemonic hierarchies”
my least-favorite Yes album
Made me laugh out loud (very rare these days).
bob mcm @ 02.00 p.m.: got it.
Also @03.34 PM.
Also @03.34 PM.
“I’ll be reasonable when you get your foot off my neck.”
Isn’t that the proper translation of “Sic semper tyrannus”?
“I’ll be reasonable when you get your foot off my neck.”
Isn’t that the proper translation of “Sic semper tyrannus”?
We need a “snark font” like commenters employ at LGM.
That’s the font that I *always* use, but somehow it just looks like the other fonts. Weird.
We need a “snark font” like commenters employ at LGM.
That’s the font that I *always* use, but somehow it just looks like the other fonts. Weird.
That’s the font that I *always* use, but somehow it just looks like the other fonts. Weird.
Really? I see it.
That’s the font that I *always* use, but somehow it just looks like the other fonts. Weird.
Really? I see it.
often what feels to the initiator to be kindness, flattery, or benign ritual… are the more powerful means of enforcing hegemonic hierarchies.
Bob has a really good point here, but he may forget that I have lived in Japan for 30 years, where that principle is taken to its absolute limit.
often what feels to the initiator to be kindness, flattery, or benign ritual… are the more powerful means of enforcing hegemonic hierarchies.
Bob has a really good point here, but he may forget that I have lived in Japan for 30 years, where that principle is taken to its absolute limit.
And a little synchronicity
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/13/trotsky-ice-axe-murder-mexico-city
And a little synchronicity
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/13/trotsky-ice-axe-murder-mexico-city
Bob has a really good point here, but he may forget that I have lived in Japan for 30 years, where that principle is taken to its absolute limit.
Didn’t forget at all, and in fact I was going to bring in a Japanese example, but we may differ on interpretations and preferences. Besides the books, I also watch perhaps too much media, but my understanding is that media in order to be entertaining and interesting, must at least brush on social problems, if only in a humorous or shallow manner. But often much more seriously, within the constraints of the social system.
I like honorifics and some name conventions as I understand them. I have gone through this at CT with Holbo.
I don’t like to be physically touched, and am wary of intrusions into my personal emotional space by relative strangers.
I am stuck with my “nym” and don’t mean to criticize anyone who has followed standard American practices, but when called “Bob” by a stranger I am reminded of the used car salesmen who wraps his arm around my shoulder and says:”Can I call you Bob? I can call you Bob, right.”
It is a forced intimacy meant to disarm and weaken, to put me into a position where I must try to avoid disagreement and conflict. Soon I will be saying 25k for that car is a bargain. Or of course I must side with the school administrator in pursuit of order and reasoned discussion or be a troll.
As I understand the Japanese name conventions, the use of -san and -sama, the abuse of -chan and -kun, the reluctance to use first names except on declared intimacy, some problems of personalized abuse of these
hierarchical interactions are institutionalized and socialized. It becomes deeply embedded that “this is the way things are” or “can’t be helped” instead of “I thought you were my friend, why did you betray me.”
The ungendered use of -san reminds me of the compulsory “comrade” in the theoretically egalitarian societies. I like it. Course anime may be lying to me, but even then it may express some socialized ideal. And it certainly doesn’t resolve all problems of exploitation and power.
I find Okaeri tadaima frankly maddening, but the Japanese seem to find comfort in it.
I know of office ladies, and the brutal inequality of the education system, the horror of aged unemployment, the lack of support for singles, etc etc but I find their solutions at least interesting compared to American ones and use the results, say Gini indices and crime, to gauge the relative success of systems.
Perhaps the best and most talented get fewer opportunities in Japan, but perhaps the least and most unlucky have slightly better prospects.
Absolutely would loathe living in Japan. I’m a asocial pothead.
Fire away.
Bob has a really good point here, but he may forget that I have lived in Japan for 30 years, where that principle is taken to its absolute limit.
Didn’t forget at all, and in fact I was going to bring in a Japanese example, but we may differ on interpretations and preferences. Besides the books, I also watch perhaps too much media, but my understanding is that media in order to be entertaining and interesting, must at least brush on social problems, if only in a humorous or shallow manner. But often much more seriously, within the constraints of the social system.
I like honorifics and some name conventions as I understand them. I have gone through this at CT with Holbo.
I don’t like to be physically touched, and am wary of intrusions into my personal emotional space by relative strangers.
I am stuck with my “nym” and don’t mean to criticize anyone who has followed standard American practices, but when called “Bob” by a stranger I am reminded of the used car salesmen who wraps his arm around my shoulder and says:”Can I call you Bob? I can call you Bob, right.”
It is a forced intimacy meant to disarm and weaken, to put me into a position where I must try to avoid disagreement and conflict. Soon I will be saying 25k for that car is a bargain. Or of course I must side with the school administrator in pursuit of order and reasoned discussion or be a troll.
As I understand the Japanese name conventions, the use of -san and -sama, the abuse of -chan and -kun, the reluctance to use first names except on declared intimacy, some problems of personalized abuse of these
hierarchical interactions are institutionalized and socialized. It becomes deeply embedded that “this is the way things are” or “can’t be helped” instead of “I thought you were my friend, why did you betray me.”
The ungendered use of -san reminds me of the compulsory “comrade” in the theoretically egalitarian societies. I like it. Course anime may be lying to me, but even then it may express some socialized ideal. And it certainly doesn’t resolve all problems of exploitation and power.
I find Okaeri tadaima frankly maddening, but the Japanese seem to find comfort in it.
I know of office ladies, and the brutal inequality of the education system, the horror of aged unemployment, the lack of support for singles, etc etc but I find their solutions at least interesting compared to American ones and use the results, say Gini indices and crime, to gauge the relative success of systems.
Perhaps the best and most talented get fewer opportunities in Japan, but perhaps the least and most unlucky have slightly better prospects.
Absolutely would loathe living in Japan. I’m a asocial pothead.
Fire away.
And with all due respect, lj, I have spent enough time in the youtube expatriates in Japan industry, both haters and lovers, to take as authoritative only one voice from Japan.
I didn’t mention the death-by-overwork culture. Japan is not that attractive. Just interesting.
And with all due respect, lj, I have spent enough time in the youtube expatriates in Japan industry, both haters and lovers, to take as authoritative only one voice from Japan.
I didn’t mention the death-by-overwork culture. Japan is not that attractive. Just interesting.
(the PRE tag does most of what the CODE tag does, but it adds line feeds around the text)
(the PRE tag does most of what the CODE tag does, but it adds line feeds around the text)
but when called “Bob” by a stranger I am reminded of the used car salesmen who wraps his arm around my shoulder and says:”Can I call you Bob? I can call you Bob, right.”
This reminds me of a great cartoon, where a couple seated at a table in a restaurant, and the guy says to the waiter,
“Nice to meet you, Bob. Do you mind if we call you ‘waiter’?”
but when called “Bob” by a stranger I am reminded of the used car salesmen who wraps his arm around my shoulder and says:”Can I call you Bob? I can call you Bob, right.”
This reminds me of a great cartoon, where a couple seated at a table in a restaurant, and the guy says to the waiter,
“Nice to meet you, Bob. Do you mind if we call you ‘waiter’?”
Japanese Expatriate Industry
Japanese Expatriate Industry
Hi bob mcmanus,
Not suggesting that I am authoritative in any way, just suggesting that the reaction you have to people being polite as a way of getting their way may color your reaction to me and to point out that I come by that from living here cause it is hard to imagine trying to resist it here.
I’m not living here now because I find Japan attractive, though it has its charm points. I know of a few people who have picked up and left after 2 more decades. Alex Bennett takes that up here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giAm-G2xJj8
I’m just here because I ended up here. That’s it, there are things that pulled me here, but if I’d been looking in another direction, I would have ended up somewhere else. Or I might of been run over by a truck, who knows.
I’ve got a long post brewing about Japanese hospitals and medicine and my current entanglement with the system. Hope it is of interest.
Hi bob mcmanus,
Not suggesting that I am authoritative in any way, just suggesting that the reaction you have to people being polite as a way of getting their way may color your reaction to me and to point out that I come by that from living here cause it is hard to imagine trying to resist it here.
I’m not living here now because I find Japan attractive, though it has its charm points. I know of a few people who have picked up and left after 2 more decades. Alex Bennett takes that up here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giAm-G2xJj8
I’m just here because I ended up here. That’s it, there are things that pulled me here, but if I’d been looking in another direction, I would have ended up somewhere else. Or I might of been run over by a truck, who knows.
I’ve got a long post brewing about Japanese hospitals and medicine and my current entanglement with the system. Hope it is of interest.
“Bill, would you mind if I called you Waiter?”
“Bill, would you mind if I called you Waiter?”
I come by that from living here cause it is hard to imagine trying to resist it here.
A while back, oh over the course of a couple years, I watched a few seasons of the Begin Japanology series. After a while I started to notice that the body language and posture of Peter Barakan, American in Japan for forty years, seemed just a little overpolite, tentative, intimidated, tense, passive compared to Japanese men. It is a tough system to understand where and when to cross the lines.
So much sadness. One show I watched was about an American who wanted to become a Noh performer. Hearbreaking to see after twenty years his inability to break in.
I come by that from living here cause it is hard to imagine trying to resist it here.
A while back, oh over the course of a couple years, I watched a few seasons of the Begin Japanology series. After a while I started to notice that the body language and posture of Peter Barakan, American in Japan for forty years, seemed just a little overpolite, tentative, intimidated, tense, passive compared to Japanese men. It is a tough system to understand where and when to cross the lines.
So much sadness. One show I watched was about an American who wanted to become a Noh performer. Hearbreaking to see after twenty years his inability to break in.
Re: Barakan
It was like what’s wrong with his shoulders, he looks like a factory worker.
Then I glommed that Barakan at least when working, has a permanent slight bow of automatic deference. He may not be aware of it, or he’s plenty smart and the permanent bow is useful to an interviewer. In some circumstances too much deference, but not enough to get called or corrected, may generate just a slight response of contempt and a feedback effect.
Since I noticed it, I started seeing that hunch in older Japanese women, but of a certain class; elite women, especially when younger are taller (though this is changing) and stand straighter.
And of course the hunch can come from decades of hard physical labor.
I’m probably boring everybody.
Re: Barakan
It was like what’s wrong with his shoulders, he looks like a factory worker.
Then I glommed that Barakan at least when working, has a permanent slight bow of automatic deference. He may not be aware of it, or he’s plenty smart and the permanent bow is useful to an interviewer. In some circumstances too much deference, but not enough to get called or corrected, may generate just a slight response of contempt and a feedback effect.
Since I noticed it, I started seeing that hunch in older Japanese women, but of a certain class; elite women, especially when younger are taller (though this is changing) and stand straighter.
And of course the hunch can come from decades of hard physical labor.
I’m probably boring everybody.
I’m probably boring everybody.
Nope. Not me, anyway.
I’m probably boring everybody.
Nope. Not me, anyway.
There’s a reason why mono no aware is a Japanese concept.
Overpolite and tentative, I’ll cop to those, but intimidated, tense, passive, not so much. Though one can pick up intimidated and tense from language, one can also (mistakenly) assume that it is there from a comparison with western norms. You may have contempt for him, do the Japanese around him have contempt? Of course, the foreigner has to be more Japanese than the Japanese. But contempt?
Being a wannabe musician trained me pretty well for Japan. Unless you are one of those blessed few, you get where you want to be through a series of being in the right place at the right time events. The Noh performer also, I’m assuming, had to deal with Japanese blocking him out, so it is sad that he might be as good or better than any Japanese out there, but he’s never going to get the chance. But isn’t that true for most of the rest of the world? Some other folks here might think that people only get where they are because of inherent worth, but I would never accuse you of thinking that.
I see a lot of things you point out. But I think you are putting a western spin on it, which has you use words like ‘intimidated’ and ‘contempt’. Too much deference is a way (probably the only way here, certainly the way that works the best) to say ‘fuck you’ in Japanese. The sickest burns, as they say, are when a person suddenly changes register and puts themselves way below the person they are talking to. The sudden change in register can stop a Japanese person in their tracks and there is no way to recover.
You can see the physical equivalent here when Kyuzo Mifune, at the age of 75, gives up 20 or 30 pounds and a few inches of height. At 0:55, he goes in the direction of the throw to stop his opponent then at 1:05, with a simple shift of weight, down and to the side, throws the opponent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwsvJ8FfyY8
There are other videos on the net, but this one is interesting because both his opponents are Americans, I believe. No deferential students taking it easy on their elderly teacher.
I bow when I’m talking on the phone in Japanese. Maybe I got beaten down. But I know folks who have insisted that they were going to keep their western traits, Japan or no. They aren’t here anymore. Don’t know if that means I won, or I’m just too stupid to leave.
There’s a reason why mono no aware is a Japanese concept.
Overpolite and tentative, I’ll cop to those, but intimidated, tense, passive, not so much. Though one can pick up intimidated and tense from language, one can also (mistakenly) assume that it is there from a comparison with western norms. You may have contempt for him, do the Japanese around him have contempt? Of course, the foreigner has to be more Japanese than the Japanese. But contempt?
Being a wannabe musician trained me pretty well for Japan. Unless you are one of those blessed few, you get where you want to be through a series of being in the right place at the right time events. The Noh performer also, I’m assuming, had to deal with Japanese blocking him out, so it is sad that he might be as good or better than any Japanese out there, but he’s never going to get the chance. But isn’t that true for most of the rest of the world? Some other folks here might think that people only get where they are because of inherent worth, but I would never accuse you of thinking that.
I see a lot of things you point out. But I think you are putting a western spin on it, which has you use words like ‘intimidated’ and ‘contempt’. Too much deference is a way (probably the only way here, certainly the way that works the best) to say ‘fuck you’ in Japanese. The sickest burns, as they say, are when a person suddenly changes register and puts themselves way below the person they are talking to. The sudden change in register can stop a Japanese person in their tracks and there is no way to recover.
You can see the physical equivalent here when Kyuzo Mifune, at the age of 75, gives up 20 or 30 pounds and a few inches of height. At 0:55, he goes in the direction of the throw to stop his opponent then at 1:05, with a simple shift of weight, down and to the side, throws the opponent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwsvJ8FfyY8
There are other videos on the net, but this one is interesting because both his opponents are Americans, I believe. No deferential students taking it easy on their elderly teacher.
I bow when I’m talking on the phone in Japanese. Maybe I got beaten down. But I know folks who have insisted that they were going to keep their western traits, Japan or no. They aren’t here anymore. Don’t know if that means I won, or I’m just too stupid to leave.
At 0:55, he goes in the direction of the throw to stop his opponent then at 1:05, with a simple shift of weight, down and to the side, throws the opponent.
Never seen that before; fascinating… 1:55, too !
At 0:55, he goes in the direction of the throw to stop his opponent then at 1:05, with a simple shift of weight, down and to the side, throws the opponent.
Never seen that before; fascinating… 1:55, too !
Too much deference is a way (probably the only way here, certainly the way that works the best) to say ‘fuck you’ in Japanese.
Terrific point. I am amazed at how much sarcasm, as long as a person stays within the “rules” is allowed in Japan.
Too much deference is a way (probably the only way here, certainly the way that works the best) to say ‘fuck you’ in Japanese.
Terrific point. I am amazed at how much sarcasm, as long as a person stays within the “rules” is allowed in Japan.
Veering back (vaguely) towards the original post, we have this tweet this morning from noted flaming liberal (/sarcasm) Ann Coulter:
What more can one say…? Could sanity be creeping in?
Veering back (vaguely) towards the original post, we have this tweet this morning from noted flaming liberal (/sarcasm) Ann Coulter:
What more can one say…? Could sanity be creeping in?
Could sanity be creeping in?
debatable!
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/14/opinion/trump-republicans.html
Could sanity be creeping in?
debatable!
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/14/opinion/trump-republicans.html
1) Oh Noes! Another tick off my Times counter
2) Note on OP PPACA not safe yet.
End of a medium long article
3) In utterly too personal triviality, after sometimes thinking my brain is gone with age, and trying to remember where I put my coffee cup,and wondering why I bother to read at all if if just flows through the ears and eyes to the ether…I was thinking about the 15th C and Noh and Zeami came through. Yayyy. And just a minute later, after worrying for days that I couldn’t remember the director of Ugetsu Mizoguchi came through. Can’t take any credit or pride here, just a reminder that I ain’t dead yet.
4) My greed and gluttony prevent me from enough rewatches and rereads.
1) Oh Noes! Another tick off my Times counter
2) Note on OP PPACA not safe yet.
End of a medium long article
3) In utterly too personal triviality, after sometimes thinking my brain is gone with age, and trying to remember where I put my coffee cup,and wondering why I bother to read at all if if just flows through the ears and eyes to the ether…I was thinking about the 15th C and Noh and Zeami came through. Yayyy. And just a minute later, after worrying for days that I couldn’t remember the director of Ugetsu Mizoguchi came through. Can’t take any credit or pride here, just a reminder that I ain’t dead yet.
4) My greed and gluttony prevent me from enough rewatches and rereads.
Could sanity be creeping in?
debatable!
He’s zigging and zagging. He’s shaking and baking. He’s not just the POTUS, he’s an NFL-quality broken field runner.
His people love him because he’s him. What he says or does don’t matter that much. He’s Donald. That’s enough.
Never seen that before
I took an aikido class once where the teacher was blind. He was not a guy to be trifled with.
Could sanity be creeping in?
debatable!
He’s zigging and zagging. He’s shaking and baking. He’s not just the POTUS, he’s an NFL-quality broken field runner.
His people love him because he’s him. What he says or does don’t matter that much. He’s Donald. That’s enough.
Never seen that before
I took an aikido class once where the teacher was blind. He was not a guy to be trifled with.
Trump Courts Democrats on Tax Bill
Mostly only Manchin and Heitkamp, Donnelly of Indiana
But Pelosi and Schumer showed it is fine to cross the aisle
Trump Courts Democrats on Tax Bill
Mostly only Manchin and Heitkamp, Donnelly of Indiana
But Pelosi and Schumer showed it is fine to cross the aisle
It will definitely be a ROTFLOL moment if Trump ends up signing on to a tax reform bill which actually raises taxes on the wealthy.
But what a great way for him to get back at all those wealthy people who snubbed him all these years!
It will definitely be a ROTFLOL moment if Trump ends up signing on to a tax reform bill which actually raises taxes on the wealthy.
But what a great way for him to get back at all those wealthy people who snubbed him all these years!
please, Nancy and Chuck, don’t make me have nice thoughts about that scumbag.
please, Nancy and Chuck, don’t make me have nice thoughts about that scumbag.
wj: there was a NYT editorial today, the decried the “financial bubbles” that come from stocks, housing, assets, etc.
Yeah, we can prevent all of that stuff by just cranking up the capital gains tax, not that they want to hear that.
Someone suggests it to Trump at just the right time, and who knows what happens?
wj: there was a NYT editorial today, the decried the “financial bubbles” that come from stocks, housing, assets, etc.
Yeah, we can prevent all of that stuff by just cranking up the capital gains tax, not that they want to hear that.
Someone suggests it to Trump at just the right time, and who knows what happens?
No matter what its other features, anything which claims to be tax reform, but leaves capital gains taxed at a different rate than other income is seriously flawed. Regardless of the impact on bubbles.
No matter what its other features, anything which claims to be tax reform, but leaves capital gains taxed at a different rate than other income is seriously flawed. Regardless of the impact on bubbles.
please, Nancy and Chuck, don’t make me have nice thoughts about that scumbag.
eyes on the prize.
please, Nancy and Chuck, don’t make me have nice thoughts about that scumbag.
eyes on the prize.
there was a NYT editorial today, the decried the “financial bubbles” that come from stocks, housing, assets, etc.
Bubbles are what you get when interest rates are kept artificially low.
there was a NYT editorial today, the decried the “financial bubbles” that come from stocks, housing, assets, etc.
Bubbles are what you get when interest rates are kept artificially low.
that scumbag
I agree entirely with the assessment, but in purely party political terms, he is something of a force of randomness…
Speaking of which, this is a very interesting article which explores a moral perspective little addressed:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/09/18/the-sorrow-and-the-shame-of-the-accidental-killer
(No direct comparison or excuse for Trump intended.)
that scumbag
I agree entirely with the assessment, but in purely party political terms, he is something of a force of randomness…
Speaking of which, this is a very interesting article which explores a moral perspective little addressed:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/09/18/the-sorrow-and-the-shame-of-the-accidental-killer
(No direct comparison or excuse for Trump intended.)
Fascinating and important article, Nigel. Thank you.
Fascinating and important article, Nigel. Thank you.
From Nigel’s link:
From Nigel’s link:
A German S.S. officer, for instance, might have led a harmless or even an exemplary life had he lived elsewhere, or had the Nazis never come to power.
In a way, that’s true. But we are part of the world, whether or not we have created it. And the capacity to make moral decisions in reaction to what we are given seems to be our task as human beings. I don’t know that a random tragic accidental misfortune is similar to having been born in the wrong place at the wrong time given that other people managed to react to events differently.
A German S.S. officer, for instance, might have led a harmless or even an exemplary life had he lived elsewhere, or had the Nazis never come to power.
In a way, that’s true. But we are part of the world, whether or not we have created it. And the capacity to make moral decisions in reaction to what we are given seems to be our task as human beings. I don’t know that a random tragic accidental misfortune is similar to having been born in the wrong place at the wrong time given that other people managed to react to events differently.
A German S.S. officer, for instance, might have led a harmless or even an exemplary life had he lived elsewhere, or had the Nazis never come to power.
There were people who lived in that society, and who did not acquiesce to Nazism.
There were, in fact, German military officers of that time who did not acquiesce to Nazism.
What you want is a society where people don’t have to be utterly heroic in order to be good.
That’s not always a given. And, those conditions are frequently not consistently available to everyone.
A German S.S. officer, for instance, might have led a harmless or even an exemplary life had he lived elsewhere, or had the Nazis never come to power.
There were people who lived in that society, and who did not acquiesce to Nazism.
There were, in fact, German military officers of that time who did not acquiesce to Nazism.
What you want is a society where people don’t have to be utterly heroic in order to be good.
That’s not always a given. And, those conditions are frequently not consistently available to everyone.
I don’t know that a random tragic accidental misfortune is similar to having been born in the wrong place at the wrong time given that other people managed to react to events differently.
I agree. There are more decisions involved in becoming an SS officer than in being, by chance, where a little kid runs into the road too suddenly for you not to hit him.
I thought it was an interesting quote, and one that reflects thoughts I’ve had since I was a child.
I can remember being 8 to 10 years old and thinking about being born in the United States, as opposed to some Third World country where I would be likely to live in grinding poverty, without running water or air conditioning or access to good food (or TV!!!). I thought what a lucky accident that was – something I had no hand in.
I could have lived in the 8th Century in a village overrun by Viking invaders. I could have been tortured during the Spanish Inquisition. I could have been captured by slavers and lived a horrible, brutal life of pure desperation in bondage.
But I got to watch cartoons and eat ice cream.
I don’t know that a random tragic accidental misfortune is similar to having been born in the wrong place at the wrong time given that other people managed to react to events differently.
I agree. There are more decisions involved in becoming an SS officer than in being, by chance, where a little kid runs into the road too suddenly for you not to hit him.
I thought it was an interesting quote, and one that reflects thoughts I’ve had since I was a child.
I can remember being 8 to 10 years old and thinking about being born in the United States, as opposed to some Third World country where I would be likely to live in grinding poverty, without running water or air conditioning or access to good food (or TV!!!). I thought what a lucky accident that was – something I had no hand in.
I could have lived in the 8th Century in a village overrun by Viking invaders. I could have been tortured during the Spanish Inquisition. I could have been captured by slavers and lived a horrible, brutal life of pure desperation in bondage.
But I got to watch cartoons and eat ice cream.
What you want is a society where people don’t have to be utterly heroic in order to be good.
And this. But the response from some people to any suggestion of policy intended to make people less likely to do the wrong thing is that you’re excusing people’s bad choices. It’s almost as though some people would rather have someone to blame and to punish than to prevent whatever wrongs were committed.
What you want is a society where people don’t have to be utterly heroic in order to be good.
And this. But the response from some people to any suggestion of policy intended to make people less likely to do the wrong thing is that you’re excusing people’s bad choices. It’s almost as though some people would rather have someone to blame and to punish than to prevent whatever wrongs were committed.
CharlesWT: Bubbles are what you get when interest rates are kept artificially low.
Mystery of the Missing Inflation …Nouriel Roubini
“This is the view taken by the Bank for International Settlements, which argues that it is time to lower the inflation target from 2% to 0% – the rate that can now be expected, given permanent supply shocks.”
Fighting Bubbles: High Interest Rates Are Not the Best Route …Dean Baker
Shrug
CharlesWT: Bubbles are what you get when interest rates are kept artificially low.
Mystery of the Missing Inflation …Nouriel Roubini
“This is the view taken by the Bank for International Settlements, which argues that it is time to lower the inflation target from 2% to 0% – the rate that can now be expected, given permanent supply shocks.”
Fighting Bubbles: High Interest Rates Are Not the Best Route …Dean Baker
Shrug
On the SS Officer question, I saw this play (“Good”) in the West End years ago, with the late great actor Alan Howard in the lead.
http://www.alanhoward.org.uk/broadwaygood.htm
As I recall, it showed how a quite “good”, normal human being might slide down the slippery slope given certain circumstances. An extract from the link:
On the SS Officer question, I saw this play (“Good”) in the West End years ago, with the late great actor Alan Howard in the lead.
http://www.alanhoward.org.uk/broadwaygood.htm
As I recall, it showed how a quite “good”, normal human being might slide down the slippery slope given certain circumstances. An extract from the link:
And yet, as long as you have a SECRET ballot, people can decide whether to vote for Hitler, or not, and whether to vote for Trump, or not.
And they shouldn’t get let off the hook for the choice they made.
And yet, as long as you have a SECRET ballot, people can decide whether to vote for Hitler, or not, and whether to vote for Trump, or not.
And they shouldn’t get let off the hook for the choice they made.
“I could have lived in the 8th Century in a village overrun by Viking invaders. I could have been tortured during the Spanish Inquisition. I could have been captured by slavers and lived a horrible, brutal life of pure desperation in bondage.
But I got to watch cartoons and eat ice cream”
Well, you could have been all of these things, you just remember the ice cream.
“I could have lived in the 8th Century in a village overrun by Viking invaders. I could have been tortured during the Spanish Inquisition. I could have been captured by slavers and lived a horrible, brutal life of pure desperation in bondage.
But I got to watch cartoons and eat ice cream”
Well, you could have been all of these things, you just remember the ice cream.
this is not my beautiful house. this is not my beautiful wife. where did that ice cream go to?
this is not my beautiful house. this is not my beautiful wife. where did that ice cream go to?
Well, you could have been all of these things, you just remember the ice cream.
Then, in what sense would those things be “me”?
I mean, I get what you’re saying, and I’ve thought about that sort of thing, too. In fact, one incarnation of God that I’ve considered is that we’re all God, we just don’t know it individually. When I’m being me, I only know I’m me. But I’m also you and everyone else, just as you are.
God, as God, is the one who knows we are all God, and remembers being all of us, from the beginning to the end of time.
Well, you could have been all of these things, you just remember the ice cream.
Then, in what sense would those things be “me”?
I mean, I get what you’re saying, and I’ve thought about that sort of thing, too. In fact, one incarnation of God that I’ve considered is that we’re all God, we just don’t know it individually. When I’m being me, I only know I’m me. But I’m also you and everyone else, just as you are.
God, as God, is the one who knows we are all God, and remembers being all of us, from the beginning to the end of time.
Please Call Me by My True Names. hsh’s God, asking to be called into being?
Please Call Me by My True Names. hsh’s God, asking to be called into being?
Are we on the threshold of some other terrifying historical process which only our great-grandchildren will know about?
Total Surveillance Society
And are we morally up to scratch to handle it?”
I don’t understand the question. We will continue to work laugh cry screw suffer die.
Are we on the threshold of some other terrifying historical process which only our great-grandchildren will know about?
Total Surveillance Society
And are we morally up to scratch to handle it?”
I don’t understand the question. We will continue to work laugh cry screw suffer die.
hah, I would say that the previous life experience get reflected in who you are. Do you see how good your life Is? How do you react to seeing others impoverished or enslaved? Not in a thoughtful, that’s intellectual bad kind of way nut in a visceral reaction based on experience.
I think you can carry lives forward as a significant part of who you are, my experience with children makes me believe it more. They seem to have different levels of reaction, honest and unfiltered, to different things that happen around then.
But, that’s just my anecdotal view.
hah, I would say that the previous life experience get reflected in who you are. Do you see how good your life Is? How do you react to seeing others impoverished or enslaved? Not in a thoughtful, that’s intellectual bad kind of way nut in a visceral reaction based on experience.
I think you can carry lives forward as a significant part of who you are, my experience with children makes me believe it more. They seem to have different levels of reaction, honest and unfiltered, to different things that happen around then.
But, that’s just my anecdotal view.
bob mcm: what you omit from your list of things we will do is “inflict suffering”. You may of course consider that one cannot live without doing so. But what I believe the question means is, will we be “morally up to scratch” enough to avoid inflicting suffering, as much as possible and/or foreseeable.
bob mcm: what you omit from your list of things we will do is “inflict suffering”. You may of course consider that one cannot live without doing so. But what I believe the question means is, will we be “morally up to scratch” enough to avoid inflicting suffering, as much as possible and/or foreseeable.
I think you can carry lives forward as a significant part of who you are, my experience with children makes me believe it more. They seem to have different levels of reaction, honest and unfiltered, to different things that happen around then.
Possibly evidence of reincarnation, or maybe just DNA.
Getting back to Nigel’s link, that’s another thing we don’t get to choose – our genes. Randomness abounds.
I think you can carry lives forward as a significant part of who you are, my experience with children makes me believe it more. They seem to have different levels of reaction, honest and unfiltered, to different things that happen around then.
Possibly evidence of reincarnation, or maybe just DNA.
Getting back to Nigel’s link, that’s another thing we don’t get to choose – our genes. Randomness abounds.
Girl from the North Country: you might be interested in Browning’s “Ordinary Men” (if you haven’t read it already).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Browning#Ordinary_Men
Girl from the North Country: you might be interested in Browning’s “Ordinary Men” (if you haven’t read it already).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Browning#Ordinary_Men
hsh’s God, asking to be called into being?
That’s an even more expansive God. My conception was that God experiences every moment of human consciousness through all of time as a sort of singularity. What constitutes “human consciousness” is an open question.
I think I like Thích Nhất Hạnh’s version even better. It’s Goddier.
hsh’s God, asking to be called into being?
That’s an even more expansive God. My conception was that God experiences every moment of human consciousness through all of time as a sort of singularity. What constitutes “human consciousness” is an open question.
I think I like Thích Nhất Hạnh’s version even better. It’s Goddier.
But what I believe the question means is, will we be “morally up to scratch” enough to avoid inflicting suffering, as much as possible and/or foreseeable.
1) The Total Surveillance Society on the near horizon is one in which we are on camera, recorded to a database, analyzed mostly by AI algorithms 24/7/365/birth to death.
If the wife says no and the husband persists, the door is broken down by authorities or alerted neighbors within 30 seconds because the interaction is live on camera, analyzed by computer algorithms. No theft or use of illegal drugs or banned porn or interperonal violence or subversion and rebellion. Whatever.
Behavior will adjust very fast. I think it will look much more like Huxley than Orwell. We will be smiling at the camera and holding back our tempers until our tempers, or those who lack control will disappear. There may or not be Big Brother, norms and enforcement may be determined by democratic means, including what needs to be enforced.
Everyone will not be watching each other at all times, but we will all be watched. The transition will be painful, but I am unclear as to how much suffering will remain after full implementation. Everyone will be happy in the Brave New World.
I will quote myself from a current active CT thread, in which I am ignored as a troll wherein the rest find entertainment in judging exactly how much suffering should be inflicted on the child-murderer.
Jones and Harvard
Society is designed in order to facilitate me giving my son* a bike and taking it away when he stays out past curfew. Or a $50k SUV.
*I have no son. I withdrew in my twenties when I decided it was impossible to neither harm** or create opportunities for others to harm me. Perhaps this makes me a coward or psychotic, I certainly will not claim sainthood.
**One random incident involved my uncle’s housewife, Devout Catholic, jumping in to try to stop an argument between him and me about atheism. Tipsy Uncle looked at her and said:”You should remember where the money comes from.” They are still married after 6 decades.
I am weak and unforgiving perhaps, perhaps incapable of love, but daily life is painful to this observer.
But what I believe the question means is, will we be “morally up to scratch” enough to avoid inflicting suffering, as much as possible and/or foreseeable.
1) The Total Surveillance Society on the near horizon is one in which we are on camera, recorded to a database, analyzed mostly by AI algorithms 24/7/365/birth to death.
If the wife says no and the husband persists, the door is broken down by authorities or alerted neighbors within 30 seconds because the interaction is live on camera, analyzed by computer algorithms. No theft or use of illegal drugs or banned porn or interperonal violence or subversion and rebellion. Whatever.
Behavior will adjust very fast. I think it will look much more like Huxley than Orwell. We will be smiling at the camera and holding back our tempers until our tempers, or those who lack control will disappear. There may or not be Big Brother, norms and enforcement may be determined by democratic means, including what needs to be enforced.
Everyone will not be watching each other at all times, but we will all be watched. The transition will be painful, but I am unclear as to how much suffering will remain after full implementation. Everyone will be happy in the Brave New World.
I will quote myself from a current active CT thread, in which I am ignored as a troll wherein the rest find entertainment in judging exactly how much suffering should be inflicted on the child-murderer.
Jones and Harvard
Society is designed in order to facilitate me giving my son* a bike and taking it away when he stays out past curfew. Or a $50k SUV.
*I have no son. I withdrew in my twenties when I decided it was impossible to neither harm** or create opportunities for others to harm me. Perhaps this makes me a coward or psychotic, I certainly will not claim sainthood.
**One random incident involved my uncle’s housewife, Devout Catholic, jumping in to try to stop an argument between him and me about atheism. Tipsy Uncle looked at her and said:”You should remember where the money comes from.” They are still married after 6 decades.
I am weak and unforgiving perhaps, perhaps incapable of love, but daily life is painful to this observer.
Shorter: It is a world of immanent constant cruelty, paid for with intermittent kindness. We seem to like it that way.
Shorter: It is a world of immanent constant cruelty, paid for with intermittent kindness. We seem to like it that way.
Final note: I was less drunk than my uncle, and in that interchange I asked myself if I was harming his wife or their relationship by discussing atheism.
I want my epitaph to read:”He was contemptibly powerless.”
Final note: I was less drunk than my uncle, and in that interchange I asked myself if I was harming his wife or their relationship by discussing atheism.
I want my epitaph to read:”He was contemptibly powerless.”
The Total Surveillance Society on the near horizon is one in which we are on camera, recorded to a database, analyzed mostly by AI algorithms 24/7/365/birth to death.
If the wife says no and the husband persists, the door is broken down by authorities or alerted neighbors within 30 seconds because the interaction is live on camera, analyzed by computer algorithms.
Really? I can see us getting to the point where we are generally monitored when we are in public. But I am far from convinced that we will reach the point where we are monitored constantly in our own homes. (Not to mention if we are in a rural or wilderness setting, rather than an urban one.)
The Total Surveillance Society on the near horizon is one in which we are on camera, recorded to a database, analyzed mostly by AI algorithms 24/7/365/birth to death.
If the wife says no and the husband persists, the door is broken down by authorities or alerted neighbors within 30 seconds because the interaction is live on camera, analyzed by computer algorithms.
Really? I can see us getting to the point where we are generally monitored when we are in public. But I am far from convinced that we will reach the point where we are monitored constantly in our own homes. (Not to mention if we are in a rural or wilderness setting, rather than an urban one.)
But I am far from convinced that we will reach the point where we are monitored constantly in our own homes.
Does the right to privacy balance out against rape or a murdered child? Let us discuss.
But I am far from convinced that we will reach the point where we are monitored constantly in our own homes.
Does the right to privacy balance out against rape or a murdered child? Let us discuss.
Thank you, novakant.
I will quote myself from a current active CT thread, in which I am ignored as a troll wherein the rest find entertainment in judging exactly how much suffering should be inflicted on the child-murderer.
Out of curiosity I have just read the relevant thread at CT. It repaid the effort. Here it is, for anybody else who may be interested:
http://crookedtimber.org/2017/09/14/michelle-jones-and-the-shame-of-harvard/
Thank you, novakant.
I will quote myself from a current active CT thread, in which I am ignored as a troll wherein the rest find entertainment in judging exactly how much suffering should be inflicted on the child-murderer.
Out of curiosity I have just read the relevant thread at CT. It repaid the effort. Here it is, for anybody else who may be interested:
http://crookedtimber.org/2017/09/14/michelle-jones-and-the-shame-of-harvard/
I consider myself monitored for much of my day on the internet and although it is known, and I know it is known, I worry little about admitting pot use in an illegal state or watching copyrighted material on youtube. It
willmay remain a tolerant society in many ways and intolerant in ways most of us will find acceptable.I consider myself monitored for much of my day on the internet and although it is known, and I know it is known, I worry little about admitting pot use in an illegal state or watching copyrighted material on youtube. It
willmay remain a tolerant society in many ways and intolerant in ways most of us will find acceptable.Does the right to privacy balance out against rape or a murdered child? Let us discuss.
The world is full of 1 in a billion chances for something bad to happen. Something bad that could be avoided by a massive restriction on everyone’s freedom.
How big, or how small, does a probability of a problem have to be to warrant how massive an intrusion? That’s basically the issue.
We’ll never get to perfect safety. So where do we decide to draw the line?
Does the right to privacy balance out against rape or a murdered child? Let us discuss.
The world is full of 1 in a billion chances for something bad to happen. Something bad that could be avoided by a massive restriction on everyone’s freedom.
How big, or how small, does a probability of a problem have to be to warrant how massive an intrusion? That’s basically the issue.
We’ll never get to perfect safety. So where do we decide to draw the line?
How big, or how small, does a probability of a problem have to be to warrant how massive an intrusion? That’s basically the issue.
No, the issue will be emotional, social, and political with some slight restraints provided by scientific analysis, consequential and deontological arguments.
Facebook, Equifax, Euro fights over histories, Internet of Things…we are so close everybody can see it from here.
How big, or how small, does a probability of a problem have to be to warrant how massive an intrusion? That’s basically the issue.
No, the issue will be emotional, social, and political with some slight restraints provided by scientific analysis, consequential and deontological arguments.
Facebook, Equifax, Euro fights over histories, Internet of Things…we are so close everybody can see it from here.
Well, as we decipher the way we perceive the universe to create a “timeline” for ourselves we will be able to monitor each entities timeline. No cameras required.
As everything “is” already, we just pick which to perceive anyway.
Well, as we decipher the way we perceive the universe to create a “timeline” for ourselves we will be able to monitor each entities timeline. No cameras required.
As everything “is” already, we just pick which to perceive anyway.
Bob, allow me to note that, in order to provide perfect safety, we would have to ban anything which might be used as a weapon. (Including everything from guns to baseball bats to kitchen knives.) Which means that the prospects for the revolution you desire/predict drop to zero.
Bob, allow me to note that, in order to provide perfect safety, we would have to ban anything which might be used as a weapon. (Including everything from guns to baseball bats to kitchen knives.) Which means that the prospects for the revolution you desire/predict drop to zero.
You want an effective way to make sure that the Panopticon Society doesn’t get too pervasive?
Make sure that the Rich&Powerful are subject to exactly as much total surveillance as us peons.
That might require gnat-sized spy drones that feed directly into Youtube, following Paul Ryan around. Get cracking, techies!
You want an effective way to make sure that the Panopticon Society doesn’t get too pervasive?
Make sure that the Rich&Powerful are subject to exactly as much total surveillance as us peons.
That might require gnat-sized spy drones that feed directly into Youtube, following Paul Ryan around. Get cracking, techies!
One reason I ’embrace’ bob mcmanus is that here in Japan, we seem to be a lot closer to the all seeing, all knowing state and when he says something like, I feel like ‘welcome to my world’.
Not exactly though. I started in Japan on a government program that brought a lot of uni grads to teach in the Japanese education system. There were a few people who had huge problems with the level of intrusiveness. Some of the people within the group ended up acting as liaisons. I was one of them. I remember reacting to an Australian who was convinced that his phone was tapped by saying just speak with your normal accent, no one will understand you.
AI promises/threatens to deal with that by dealing with all that information, which is even more horrifying, because who knows if you are going to get picked up because someone’s AI algorithm screws up.
Japanese society also has the ability to make an example of someone for doing something that everyone else is doing. Funny how this person is usually someone who is an outsider. The solution of going somewhere where you are not an outsider isn’t available, especially when the society where you were nominally an insider has changed so much. You can never go home.
Figuring out where one can push back and where one can’t becomes a constant. For people who don’t think that exists, that’s insider privilege talking.
One reason I ’embrace’ bob mcmanus is that here in Japan, we seem to be a lot closer to the all seeing, all knowing state and when he says something like, I feel like ‘welcome to my world’.
Not exactly though. I started in Japan on a government program that brought a lot of uni grads to teach in the Japanese education system. There were a few people who had huge problems with the level of intrusiveness. Some of the people within the group ended up acting as liaisons. I was one of them. I remember reacting to an Australian who was convinced that his phone was tapped by saying just speak with your normal accent, no one will understand you.
AI promises/threatens to deal with that by dealing with all that information, which is even more horrifying, because who knows if you are going to get picked up because someone’s AI algorithm screws up.
Japanese society also has the ability to make an example of someone for doing something that everyone else is doing. Funny how this person is usually someone who is an outsider. The solution of going somewhere where you are not an outsider isn’t available, especially when the society where you were nominally an insider has changed so much. You can never go home.
Figuring out where one can push back and where one can’t becomes a constant. For people who don’t think that exists, that’s insider privilege talking.
Founder of Bitcoin Discovered by Writing Style …DHS used stylometry
I see these articles everyday.
Matt Stoller on the history of credit bureaus. Excellent
Now I have to finish the Jacques Rivette 2:20 he is always a challenge
Followed by Excel Saga, which maybe the interested could easily find online. Yup, there’s a little, recommend the sub of course. Amazing performance by the seiyuu at 100 words per minute
Followed by Full Metal Panic:Fumoffu. Oh this a perfect glory, Kyoto Animation’s first series. So class, so funny, so romantic, so casually experimental, so warm, so beautiful. In a lot of people’s top ten. Opening here might be enough. Also a taste on youtube.
Episode 2
Yeah, I remain an adolescent in my heart.
Founder of Bitcoin Discovered by Writing Style …DHS used stylometry
I see these articles everyday.
Matt Stoller on the history of credit bureaus. Excellent
Now I have to finish the Jacques Rivette 2:20 he is always a challenge
Followed by Excel Saga, which maybe the interested could easily find online. Yup, there’s a little, recommend the sub of course. Amazing performance by the seiyuu at 100 words per minute
Followed by Full Metal Panic:Fumoffu. Oh this a perfect glory, Kyoto Animation’s first series. So class, so funny, so romantic, so casually experimental, so warm, so beautiful. In a lot of people’s top ten. Opening here might be enough. Also a taste on youtube.
Episode 2
Yeah, I remain an adolescent in my heart.
“I started in Japan on a government program that brought a lot of uni grads to teach in the Japanese education system.”
Is that the program to have native English speakers teaching English in Japanese schools? And if so, do you know if the program is still active?
I just don’t want to be giving bad advice when I tell kids that they might want to look into it.
“I started in Japan on a government program that brought a lot of uni grads to teach in the Japanese education system.”
Is that the program to have native English speakers teaching English in Japanese schools? And if so, do you know if the program is still active?
I just don’t want to be giving bad advice when I tell kids that they might want to look into it.
Yep, still going. There has been talk in closing it down, but with the 2020 Olympics, the voices for keeping it have been louder.
http://jetprogramme.org/en/
If you are advising folks and you’d like to put them in touch with me, please feel free, I’ll drop a message with my ‘real’ email to you.
[edit] looks like your email is a placeholder, drop me an email at libjpn gmail if you want.
Yep, still going. There has been talk in closing it down, but with the 2020 Olympics, the voices for keeping it have been louder.
http://jetprogramme.org/en/
If you are advising folks and you’d like to put them in touch with me, please feel free, I’ll drop a message with my ‘real’ email to you.
[edit] looks like your email is a placeholder, drop me an email at libjpn gmail if you want.
Looking over the thread, the CT discussion of Jones reminded me that I read this
http://sciencenordic.com/danes-killed-get-killed
No implied connection to the Jones case, just synchronicity.
Looking over the thread, the CT discussion of Jones reminded me that I read this
http://sciencenordic.com/danes-killed-get-killed
No implied connection to the Jones case, just synchronicity.
You want an effective way to make sure that the Panopticon Society doesn’t get too pervasive?
my plan is to bore our panoptical overlords into a stupor with long irate screeds about donald trump, google searches for trivia about patristic theology, jazz harmony, and cool honda engine swaps, and ebay bids on old cymbals.
i mix in random queries about lederhosen and cavy husbandry. just to keep the algorithms on their toes.
You want an effective way to make sure that the Panopticon Society doesn’t get too pervasive?
my plan is to bore our panoptical overlords into a stupor with long irate screeds about donald trump, google searches for trivia about patristic theology, jazz harmony, and cool honda engine swaps, and ebay bids on old cymbals.
i mix in random queries about lederhosen and cavy husbandry. just to keep the algorithms on their toes.
lj, thanks. It’s not any sort of formal advising, but “hey, you might want to consider…” for kids that are at that stage of life, but not quite sure where to go next.
Peace Corps is the other option I mention, but it has much more visibility.
lj, thanks. It’s not any sort of formal advising, but “hey, you might want to consider…” for kids that are at that stage of life, but not quite sure where to go next.
Peace Corps is the other option I mention, but it has much more visibility.
Re:Michele Jones at CT
FWIW Second Wave 70s Japanese feminism had a major focus on associating themselves with women child-killers for a while.
Setsu Shigamatsu – Scream from the Shadows – Womens Liberation in Japan, 2012
An early sentence that might show why I read theory and don’t quite understand intellectual political work that doesn’t, as in CT threads.
“This project seeks to problematize extant comparativist frameworks that assume self- same unity between national and linguistic entities and identities and, rather, attends to the imbrications and interpenetration of local, linguistic, transcultural, and transnational forces.”
“This chapter not only elaborates how ribu refused the identity and prescriptive telos of wife-to-mother but demonstrates how many ribu activists instead formed communes with other women to raise their children and simultaneously declared their solidarity with mothers who killed their children (kogoroshi no onna). In purposely organizing to support and declare solidarity with such violent and criminalized women, ribu’s praxis as a radical feminist movement offered a complex and counterhegemonic response to how womanhood and motherhood in Japan were bound by the ideology of Japan’s nationalist family system. Ribu’s identification with criminalized and abjected women/onna— such as sex workers, unmarried mothers (mikon no haha), mothers who killed their children, and women fugitives— was part of its radical feminist politics and arguably marked the radical potential and revolutionary impulse of its feminist politics.”
Re:Michele Jones at CT
FWIW Second Wave 70s Japanese feminism had a major focus on associating themselves with women child-killers for a while.
Setsu Shigamatsu – Scream from the Shadows – Womens Liberation in Japan, 2012
An early sentence that might show why I read theory and don’t quite understand intellectual political work that doesn’t, as in CT threads.
“This project seeks to problematize extant comparativist frameworks that assume self- same unity between national and linguistic entities and identities and, rather, attends to the imbrications and interpenetration of local, linguistic, transcultural, and transnational forces.”
“This chapter not only elaborates how ribu refused the identity and prescriptive telos of wife-to-mother but demonstrates how many ribu activists instead formed communes with other women to raise their children and simultaneously declared their solidarity with mothers who killed their children (kogoroshi no onna). In purposely organizing to support and declare solidarity with such violent and criminalized women, ribu’s praxis as a radical feminist movement offered a complex and counterhegemonic response to how womanhood and motherhood in Japan were bound by the ideology of Japan’s nationalist family system. Ribu’s identification with criminalized and abjected women/onna— such as sex workers, unmarried mothers (mikon no haha), mothers who killed their children, and women fugitives— was part of its radical feminist politics and arguably marked the radical potential and revolutionary impulse of its feminist politics.”
bob mcmanus, you are probably aware of this, but maybe others are not, in Japan, mothers killing their children and then committing suicide themselves is, well, I don’t want to say, common, but certainly more common that in the US. In fact, there is a term for it, Oyako Shinju.
https://www.japanpsychiatrist.com/Abstracts/Shinju.html
The case of Fumiko Kimura is the most famous for US folks.
http://digitalcommons.law.seattleu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1561&context=sjsj
http://escholarship.org/uc/item/9xq9b2r6
The first article asks a question I often find myself asking
“If Kimura’s actions constituted temporary insanity, despite their being in keeping with Japanese culture, wouldn’t that make Japanese culture similarly insane? ”
Some might say that is a distance from what Jones did, but this is not
http://www.smh.com.au/world/why-japans-isolated-mothers-are-killing-their-children-20081107-5k7s.html
Those are when the woman loses face, but with hard economic times, we have cases of families doing this. This happened in July in the neighboring prefecture
https://www.jiji.com/jc/article?k=2017072300305&g=soc
This is just a police report article, but it identifies two parents and two children found dead in a car in a forest near Fukuoka.
A second one, this time from Yamagata
https://www.jiji.com/jc/article?k=2017050700448&g=soc
Last line of that story “Inside the car was a paper with the words ‘I’m sorry’ written on it. Local police are investigating”
Compare and contrast
http://www.rawstory.com/2017/09/nashville-woman-shot-homeless-man-who-asked-her-to-move-her-porsche-then-left-him-to-die-police/
bob mcmanus, you are probably aware of this, but maybe others are not, in Japan, mothers killing their children and then committing suicide themselves is, well, I don’t want to say, common, but certainly more common that in the US. In fact, there is a term for it, Oyako Shinju.
https://www.japanpsychiatrist.com/Abstracts/Shinju.html
The case of Fumiko Kimura is the most famous for US folks.
http://digitalcommons.law.seattleu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1561&context=sjsj
http://escholarship.org/uc/item/9xq9b2r6
The first article asks a question I often find myself asking
“If Kimura’s actions constituted temporary insanity, despite their being in keeping with Japanese culture, wouldn’t that make Japanese culture similarly insane? ”
Some might say that is a distance from what Jones did, but this is not
http://www.smh.com.au/world/why-japans-isolated-mothers-are-killing-their-children-20081107-5k7s.html
Those are when the woman loses face, but with hard economic times, we have cases of families doing this. This happened in July in the neighboring prefecture
https://www.jiji.com/jc/article?k=2017072300305&g=soc
This is just a police report article, but it identifies two parents and two children found dead in a car in a forest near Fukuoka.
A second one, this time from Yamagata
https://www.jiji.com/jc/article?k=2017050700448&g=soc
Last line of that story “Inside the car was a paper with the words ‘I’m sorry’ written on it. Local police are investigating”
Compare and contrast
http://www.rawstory.com/2017/09/nashville-woman-shot-homeless-man-who-asked-her-to-move-her-porsche-then-left-him-to-die-police/
“If Kimura’s actions constituted temporary insanity, despite their being in keeping with Japanese culture, wouldn’t that make Japanese culture similarly insane? “
All cultures have some level of pathology. Some more than others. And some may just be ill-suited for their times.
“If Kimura’s actions constituted temporary insanity, despite their being in keeping with Japanese culture, wouldn’t that make Japanese culture similarly insane? “
All cultures have some level of pathology. Some more than others. And some may just be ill-suited for their times.
bob mcmanus, you are probably aware of this
Nope. Did not know. Knew of suicides and double suicides, and shrink Doi and amaeru, but not of this phenomenon. At the time of reading the Shigamatsu, I was following late 60s Japanese student activism and global 2nd wave feminism and never thought to search. Of course not in anime, but I cannot remember a single instance in the hundreds of Japanese films I have watched though that may be flawed memory. But it is not that surprising, based on what little I do know.
Boundless gratitude. There is so much to think about here, about cultural persistence in Japan, about Michelle Jones comparable circumstances in a radically different social setting.
So little time I have to self-limit my sources and not focus narrowly. But I know I miss so much. Another couple lifetimes please.
Thank you again. I learned something useful.
bob mcmanus, you are probably aware of this
Nope. Did not know. Knew of suicides and double suicides, and shrink Doi and amaeru, but not of this phenomenon. At the time of reading the Shigamatsu, I was following late 60s Japanese student activism and global 2nd wave feminism and never thought to search. Of course not in anime, but I cannot remember a single instance in the hundreds of Japanese films I have watched though that may be flawed memory. But it is not that surprising, based on what little I do know.
Boundless gratitude. There is so much to think about here, about cultural persistence in Japan, about Michelle Jones comparable circumstances in a radically different social setting.
So little time I have to self-limit my sources and not focus narrowly. But I know I miss so much. Another couple lifetimes please.
Thank you again. I learned something useful.
I haven’t seen it in any kind of movie/anime/manga either, though Murakami’s Coin Locker Babies touches on some of the cultural questions. There have also been murders of other parent’s children by excluded mothers
http://www.marieclaire.com/politics/news/a445/murder-mothers/
The fact that the murderer was a Chinese immigrant was something that was noted a lot in the vernacular reports.
I learned of the phenomenon of Oyako, Shinju from reading about the Kimura case , which is to say, I tend to learn about Japan when it bumps up against my culture, which always leaves me wondering how much else I am missing.
There is a ‘healthy’ respect of death, which I mean in both senses, it is large and it is a good thing. Foreigners focus on the fact that Japanese don’t sell things in sets of 4, because the number (shi) is a homophone of death, they freak out if someone plants their chopsticks in a bowl of rice (the way you offer it to the dead) or pass food from chopsticks to chopsticks (that’s for the bone chunks left after cremation) and think ha ha funny Japanese who still are wrapped up in their superstitions. I’m not so sure and get less sure about it everyday.
Cultural persistence is part of it. The structures of society help that culture persist in a lot of ways. Acknowledging that structures of society make culture persist gets into a lot of territory that has me wondering what things culturally persist in the US, which gives me maybe a bit of a different perspective on race than others. That whole trope about ‘ghetto culture’ that racists bring out to justify the way things are carries a planetary blind spot, in that what kind of cultural practices by society at large are in place that do the same thing. I shared this already, it is the easiest thing to point to. I am constantly reminded that I have white privilege here, but I know that privilege only extends as far as I am not overly pushy. I’m helping with the translation of some stuff for a group going to Geneva for the ratification of the Minamata mercury treaty, and one group, they had a very Japanese name for their group (something like ‘Let’s talk about Minamata association’) I suggested they needed to give an English name that was, well, more apt and suggested that they just calle themselves something like The Mercury Treaty group. Oh no, they think that the treaty soft sells a lot of the problems and they want it to be much more strict. OK, I said, let’s get a name that reflects that. Oh no, the group receives its funding from the Department of Environment, so we don’t want a name that is confrontational’ (sigh). The high school student who was going to deliver a speech wrote something very interesting about not forgetting the past and how she was impressed by the Minamata victims she’s met, it looks like all that was deleted. Too long…
I’m certain that someone will read this and think a ha, the solution is to stop letting the government pay for this. Yeah, yeah, dream on mcduff…
Well, waiting for the 3rd typhoon to come thru here this year. So don’t talk to me about climate change…
I haven’t seen it in any kind of movie/anime/manga either, though Murakami’s Coin Locker Babies touches on some of the cultural questions. There have also been murders of other parent’s children by excluded mothers
http://www.marieclaire.com/politics/news/a445/murder-mothers/
The fact that the murderer was a Chinese immigrant was something that was noted a lot in the vernacular reports.
I learned of the phenomenon of Oyako, Shinju from reading about the Kimura case , which is to say, I tend to learn about Japan when it bumps up against my culture, which always leaves me wondering how much else I am missing.
There is a ‘healthy’ respect of death, which I mean in both senses, it is large and it is a good thing. Foreigners focus on the fact that Japanese don’t sell things in sets of 4, because the number (shi) is a homophone of death, they freak out if someone plants their chopsticks in a bowl of rice (the way you offer it to the dead) or pass food from chopsticks to chopsticks (that’s for the bone chunks left after cremation) and think ha ha funny Japanese who still are wrapped up in their superstitions. I’m not so sure and get less sure about it everyday.
Cultural persistence is part of it. The structures of society help that culture persist in a lot of ways. Acknowledging that structures of society make culture persist gets into a lot of territory that has me wondering what things culturally persist in the US, which gives me maybe a bit of a different perspective on race than others. That whole trope about ‘ghetto culture’ that racists bring out to justify the way things are carries a planetary blind spot, in that what kind of cultural practices by society at large are in place that do the same thing. I shared this already, it is the easiest thing to point to. I am constantly reminded that I have white privilege here, but I know that privilege only extends as far as I am not overly pushy. I’m helping with the translation of some stuff for a group going to Geneva for the ratification of the Minamata mercury treaty, and one group, they had a very Japanese name for their group (something like ‘Let’s talk about Minamata association’) I suggested they needed to give an English name that was, well, more apt and suggested that they just calle themselves something like The Mercury Treaty group. Oh no, they think that the treaty soft sells a lot of the problems and they want it to be much more strict. OK, I said, let’s get a name that reflects that. Oh no, the group receives its funding from the Department of Environment, so we don’t want a name that is confrontational’ (sigh). The high school student who was going to deliver a speech wrote something very interesting about not forgetting the past and how she was impressed by the Minamata victims she’s met, it looks like all that was deleted. Too long…
I’m certain that someone will read this and think a ha, the solution is to stop letting the government pay for this. Yeah, yeah, dream on mcduff…
Well, waiting for the 3rd typhoon to come thru here this year. So don’t talk to me about climate change…
You Are the Product …London Review of Books
Just another article about Facebook, I find the medium-long ones from LRB to be very good.
The Total Surveillance Society may not have cameras in your bedroom yet, but it knows what sheets you are under, what snacks you eat, what tv shows or books you read as you fall asleep, how long you sleep. Who you sleep with.
At one point the author says that “building communities” and selling advertising are two separate activities. Late Capitalism theories, since the Italian Marxians in the 60s or maybe back to Frankfurt, says nope, they are the same thing, as industrial production becomes unprofitable, capitalism has to monetize and financialize every moment of your “private life” and all your feelings and emotions,
Jodi Dean, in Blog Theory and elsewhere calls in “the commodification of circulating affect.” Attachment, preferences, connections, desires, love. Hate. Shared with others.
The “commodification” part (the circulation part is the market) is usefully studied under Marxian analysis. Use-value vs exchange-value. Reification, alienation. Our pleasures in quilting are not as satisfying if we can’t share them with others, which we now can.
We are not only the product, we are producing the product. Ourselves.
You Are the Product …London Review of Books
Just another article about Facebook, I find the medium-long ones from LRB to be very good.
The Total Surveillance Society may not have cameras in your bedroom yet, but it knows what sheets you are under, what snacks you eat, what tv shows or books you read as you fall asleep, how long you sleep. Who you sleep with.
At one point the author says that “building communities” and selling advertising are two separate activities. Late Capitalism theories, since the Italian Marxians in the 60s or maybe back to Frankfurt, says nope, they are the same thing, as industrial production becomes unprofitable, capitalism has to monetize and financialize every moment of your “private life” and all your feelings and emotions,
Jodi Dean, in Blog Theory and elsewhere calls in “the commodification of circulating affect.” Attachment, preferences, connections, desires, love. Hate. Shared with others.
The “commodification” part (the circulation part is the market) is usefully studied under Marxian analysis. Use-value vs exchange-value. Reification, alienation. Our pleasures in quilting are not as satisfying if we can’t share them with others, which we now can.
We are not only the product, we are producing the product. Ourselves.
Of course, is Facebook the “market” for the commodities of circulating affect, or does it create and regulate the market?
If the latter, then Facebook is the sovereign, the gov’t that regulates the market, and in this case, Facebook is remarkable in that its model depends on its lack of regulation, its need for the market to run out of control, because freedom promotes creativity of the producers (us) who create the exchange value.
Then, by a process of homologization, we can look at national and global gov’ts as also desiring and needing to relinquish control, to maximize individualism and freedom, tribalism and movement.
Neoliberalism.
Of course, is Facebook the “market” for the commodities of circulating affect, or does it create and regulate the market?
If the latter, then Facebook is the sovereign, the gov’t that regulates the market, and in this case, Facebook is remarkable in that its model depends on its lack of regulation, its need for the market to run out of control, because freedom promotes creativity of the producers (us) who create the exchange value.
Then, by a process of homologization, we can look at national and global gov’ts as also desiring and needing to relinquish control, to maximize individualism and freedom, tribalism and movement.
Neoliberalism.
For GftNC
“In both Franzen and Lipsyte the invocation of “late capitalism” — a term most people encountered in Jameson, not Mandel — is a mark of immaturity, an outworn college creed. The thing itself may grow old with us, but the term can’t be used by middle-aged grown-ups participating in the real world (that is to say, the surface of the earth, minus college campuses).”
Benjamin Kunkel, London Review, 2010 as quoted at The Charnel-House also:
“Jameson once likened the goofy eclecticism of certain postmodern architecture to the recipes inspired by “late-night reefer munchies,” and it may be an observation to bridge the gap between his generation, steeped in the 1960s, and my own to say that reading Jameson himself has always reminded me a bit of being on drugs. The less exceptional essays were like being stoned: it all seemed very profound at the time, but the next day you could barely remember a thing. Indeed there’s no other author I’ve frequented or admired to anything like the same degree so many of whose pages produced absolutely no impression on me. And yet the best of Jameson’s work has felt mind-blowing in the way of LSD or mushrooms: here before you is the world you’d always known you were living in, but apprehended as if for the first time in the freshness of its beauty and horror.”
I like can’t grok that at all, ya dig?
For GftNC
“In both Franzen and Lipsyte the invocation of “late capitalism” — a term most people encountered in Jameson, not Mandel — is a mark of immaturity, an outworn college creed. The thing itself may grow old with us, but the term can’t be used by middle-aged grown-ups participating in the real world (that is to say, the surface of the earth, minus college campuses).”
Benjamin Kunkel, London Review, 2010 as quoted at The Charnel-House also:
“Jameson once likened the goofy eclecticism of certain postmodern architecture to the recipes inspired by “late-night reefer munchies,” and it may be an observation to bridge the gap between his generation, steeped in the 1960s, and my own to say that reading Jameson himself has always reminded me a bit of being on drugs. The less exceptional essays were like being stoned: it all seemed very profound at the time, but the next day you could barely remember a thing. Indeed there’s no other author I’ve frequented or admired to anything like the same degree so many of whose pages produced absolutely no impression on me. And yet the best of Jameson’s work has felt mind-blowing in the way of LSD or mushrooms: here before you is the world you’d always known you were living in, but apprehended as if for the first time in the freshness of its beauty and horror.”
I like can’t grok that at all, ya dig?
Capitalism 2.0 has some pretty serious bugs. I always prefer waiting for the 2.1 release.
Capitalism 2.0 has some pretty serious bugs. I always prefer waiting for the 2.1 release.
Just another article about Facebook
Personally, I am such a Luddite that I have only enough of a Facebook account (i.e. an ID and password, nothing else) that I can read something there if I have the urge.
I just can’t see putting anything personal out to be read by strangers. Granted that’s exactly what happens here, but still….
Just another article about Facebook
Personally, I am such a Luddite that I have only enough of a Facebook account (i.e. an ID and password, nothing else) that I can read something there if I have the urge.
I just can’t see putting anything personal out to be read by strangers. Granted that’s exactly what happens here, but still….
Capitalism 2.0 has some pretty serious bugs. I always prefer waiting for the 2.1 release.
Best guess is it will be a while yet before it makes it to beta. Just sayin’
Capitalism 2.0 has some pretty serious bugs. I always prefer waiting for the 2.1 release.
Best guess is it will be a while yet before it makes it to beta. Just sayin’
In case anybody is still interested in reactions/critiques etc to Lilla’s book, this (also referring to politics in the UK) by Kenan Malik from today’s Observer:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/16/no-common-goals-fragmented-society-identity-politics
In case anybody is still interested in reactions/critiques etc to Lilla’s book, this (also referring to politics in the UK) by Kenan Malik from today’s Observer:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/16/no-common-goals-fragmented-society-identity-politics
I dig, bob mcm, I dig. And yet it all made a certain sense to me…
By the way, on the creating of content question, my own somewhat pathetic blows against the Empire consist of this: I am not on Facebook, or any kind of social media. My only presence by (nick)name online is being in the acknowledgement sections of certain disparate books written by friends or people I helped in some way or other. Of course, my google searches (although I try to disable recording of them) and shopping are no doubt available, if the ads I see are anything to go by. There’s a limit to what a luddite such as myself can accomplish in obscuring my trail, but I guess that’s the whole point…
I dig, bob mcm, I dig. And yet it all made a certain sense to me…
By the way, on the creating of content question, my own somewhat pathetic blows against the Empire consist of this: I am not on Facebook, or any kind of social media. My only presence by (nick)name online is being in the acknowledgement sections of certain disparate books written by friends or people I helped in some way or other. Of course, my google searches (although I try to disable recording of them) and shopping are no doubt available, if the ads I see are anything to go by. There’s a limit to what a luddite such as myself can accomplish in obscuring my trail, but I guess that’s the whole point…
Oh alas, alas, more excellent reason to regret Brexit:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/17/margrethe-vestager-people-feel-angry-about-tax-avoidance-european-competition-commissioner
Oh alas, alas, more excellent reason to regret Brexit:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/17/margrethe-vestager-people-feel-angry-about-tax-avoidance-european-competition-commissioner
Analyze this:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/from-lucifers-hammer-to-newts-moon-base-to-donalds-wallthe-sci-fi-roots-of-the-far-right?via=newsletter&source=Weekend
They have plans for Margrethe Vestager, these visionaries do.
Allow me to reorient myself. To these visionary ilk, WE are that other six-letter V word. As are their dupe supporters.
Understand.
Analyze this:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/from-lucifers-hammer-to-newts-moon-base-to-donalds-wallthe-sci-fi-roots-of-the-far-right?via=newsletter&source=Weekend
They have plans for Margrethe Vestager, these visionaries do.
Allow me to reorient myself. To these visionary ilk, WE are that other six-letter V word. As are their dupe supporters.
Understand.
GftNC:2:59:Mark Lilla
Won’t read Lilla, and the article was only ok. Too much politics and not enough economics in its history.
Twas the Fordist era, the age of mass industrialization, mass communication, mass mobilization, and fiscal demand management that created ideological struggles and big governments.
Big governments of imperialism, welfare capitalism, fascism, stalinism, and insurgent anti-colonialisms that competed with each other. All are forms of collectivism.
One peak of the Fordist era was the LBJ administration, with all its wonders and horrors. It wasn’t the racism or anti-racism that made the difference, it was a collectivist will and mass mobilization that determined there would be war at Anzio, Stalingrad, Iwo Jima, and Hue.
And a Civil Rights Act, enforced by Federal Marshalls.
The era of big government is over, and we are deciding what will replace it. Or it is deciding us, makes little difference.
GftNC:2:59:Mark Lilla
Won’t read Lilla, and the article was only ok. Too much politics and not enough economics in its history.
Twas the Fordist era, the age of mass industrialization, mass communication, mass mobilization, and fiscal demand management that created ideological struggles and big governments.
Big governments of imperialism, welfare capitalism, fascism, stalinism, and insurgent anti-colonialisms that competed with each other. All are forms of collectivism.
One peak of the Fordist era was the LBJ administration, with all its wonders and horrors. It wasn’t the racism or anti-racism that made the difference, it was a collectivist will and mass mobilization that determined there would be war at Anzio, Stalingrad, Iwo Jima, and Hue.
And a Civil Rights Act, enforced by Federal Marshalls.
The era of big government is over, and we are deciding what will replace it. Or it is deciding us, makes little difference.
Gingrich/rump/bannon’s racist, anti-Semitic paramilitary killers:
http://juanitajean.com/shape-shifting_extremists/
Gingrich/rump/bannon’s racist, anti-Semitic paramilitary killers:
http://juanitajean.com/shape-shifting_extremists/
Delurking again, this time just with a suggestion for people like Gftnc who don’t want their google searches tracked. Use something else, like duckduckgo. There are probably others here who know more and can say whether this is a good suggestion– I am only passing on what others have said who hate or distrust Google.
https://duckduckgo.com
Delurking again, this time just with a suggestion for people like Gftnc who don’t want their google searches tracked. Use something else, like duckduckgo. There are probably others here who know more and can say whether this is a good suggestion– I am only passing on what others have said who hate or distrust Google.
https://duckduckgo.com
I found this very lucid regarding Lilla et al:
https://www.lrb.co.uk/v39/n18/pankaj-mishra/what-is-great-about-ourselves
I found this very lucid regarding Lilla et al:
https://www.lrb.co.uk/v39/n18/pankaj-mishra/what-is-great-about-ourselves
Asking to weaken and end identity politics is like trying to go back to 3 television channels. We are all, left center right trying to hold on to each other at the edges of a centrifuge.
And I really don’t care that much if Jeff Bezos owns all 1000 cable channels. He can’t and doesn’t want to control the content, just tap a shunt into the Big Pipe.
Asking to weaken and end identity politics is like trying to go back to 3 television channels. We are all, left center right trying to hold on to each other at the edges of a centrifuge.
And I really don’t care that much if Jeff Bezos owns all 1000 cable channels. He can’t and doesn’t want to control the content, just tap a shunt into the Big Pipe.
Count, regarding Lucifer’s Hammer and the far right: anyone who ever knew Jerry Pournelle (which I had the misfortune to) would be aware that he was a major scumbag. That the far right would embrace his views seems like a marriage made in . . . somewhere. Soulmates, for sure.
Count, regarding Lucifer’s Hammer and the far right: anyone who ever knew Jerry Pournelle (which I had the misfortune to) would be aware that he was a major scumbag. That the far right would embrace his views seems like a marriage made in . . . somewhere. Soulmates, for sure.
The era of big government is over, and we are deciding what will replace it. Or it is deciding us, makes little difference.
Is this just an expression of hope?
Or do you have some actual evidence that it is happening? Something that would cause us to look at, for example, the ACA (and its “repeal”) and say, “See, big government being rolled back already!”? Somehow, like it or no, I’m just not seeing it.
The era of big government is over, and we are deciding what will replace it. Or it is deciding us, makes little difference.
Is this just an expression of hope?
Or do you have some actual evidence that it is happening? Something that would cause us to look at, for example, the ACA (and its “repeal”) and say, “See, big government being rolled back already!”? Somehow, like it or no, I’m just not seeing it.
Or do you have some actual evidence that it is happening? Something that would cause us to look at, for example, the ACA
The formal differences between the ACA and Medicare, the different levels of national/state acceptance and implementation.
The political voluntarists say:”Bad Joe Lieberman, Bad John Roberts, Bad Mississippi” as if George Wallace and Barry Goldwater didn’t even try.
I don’t do alternate histories or utopias, I look at history and say this is what had to happen because it happened. Then I ask why.
Or do you have some actual evidence that it is happening? Something that would cause us to look at, for example, the ACA
The formal differences between the ACA and Medicare, the different levels of national/state acceptance and implementation.
The political voluntarists say:”Bad Joe Lieberman, Bad John Roberts, Bad Mississippi” as if George Wallace and Barry Goldwater didn’t even try.
I don’t do alternate histories or utopias, I look at history and say this is what had to happen because it happened. Then I ask why.
We know that power is shifting: From West to East and North to South, from presidential palaces to public squares, from once formidable corporate behemoths to nimble startups and, slowly but surely, from men to women. But power is not merely shifting and dispersing. It is also decaying. Those in power today are more constrained in what they can do with it and more at risk of losing it than ever before.
The End of Power: From Boardrooms to Battlefields and Churches to States, Why Being In Charge Isn’t What It Used to Be
We know that power is shifting: From West to East and North to South, from presidential palaces to public squares, from once formidable corporate behemoths to nimble startups and, slowly but surely, from men to women. But power is not merely shifting and dispersing. It is also decaying. Those in power today are more constrained in what they can do with it and more at risk of losing it than ever before.
The End of Power: From Boardrooms to Battlefields and Churches to States, Why Being In Charge Isn’t What It Used to Be
I do agree that pessimism, left-wing melancholy (allusion alert!), and defeatism can be effectively conservative or or or dispiriting. Real old-style Marxists kinda hate me.
And fuck I love our 1000 channel-watching 3 billion Facebook using left-handed red-haired polysexual Basque WoW-playing world. Love it to death.
I am damn well not going to try to organize it or expect unity or consistency or solidarity in it. Should have been a tornado or hurricane above.
This i what freedom and democracy looks like. Sophocles followed by plague and a Syracuse expedition.
I do agree that pessimism, left-wing melancholy (allusion alert!), and defeatism can be effectively conservative or or or dispiriting. Real old-style Marxists kinda hate me.
And fuck I love our 1000 channel-watching 3 billion Facebook using left-handed red-haired polysexual Basque WoW-playing world. Love it to death.
I am damn well not going to try to organize it or expect unity or consistency or solidarity in it. Should have been a tornado or hurricane above.
This i what freedom and democracy looks like. Sophocles followed by plague and a Syracuse expedition.
https://duckduckgo.com/
Donald: many thanks.
https://duckduckgo.com/
Donald: many thanks.
The formal differences between the ACA and Medicare, the different levels of national/state acceptance and implementation.
Oh, no question that the ACA is a less big government solution than Medicare. But that isn’t the real comparison. We didn’t decide to implement the ACA instead of Medicare for all. We implemented it as a large step, a big government step, in that direction.
You can argue that government isn’t getting bigger as fast as you expected. But that’s not really the same thing as saying that its era is over.
The formal differences between the ACA and Medicare, the different levels of national/state acceptance and implementation.
Oh, no question that the ACA is a less big government solution than Medicare. But that isn’t the real comparison. We didn’t decide to implement the ACA instead of Medicare for all. We implemented it as a large step, a big government step, in that direction.
You can argue that government isn’t getting bigger as fast as you expected. But that’s not really the same thing as saying that its era is over.
wj:5:12: Good luck. Go for it. I am right behind you. I don’t have a plan or any answers, just an analysis and an overwhelming weltschmerz. And books, music, old movies, and anime.
charleswt:End of Power: you hate me, huh.
Out of pot. I take months or years off smoking at a time. Pot helps me read and think, but hurts my writing and sociality. Need some discipline to get back in a groove and channel nervous energy.
wj:5:12: Good luck. Go for it. I am right behind you. I don’t have a plan or any answers, just an analysis and an overwhelming weltschmerz. And books, music, old movies, and anime.
charleswt:End of Power: you hate me, huh.
Out of pot. I take months or years off smoking at a time. Pot helps me read and think, but hurts my writing and sociality. Need some discipline to get back in a groove and channel nervous energy.
Bob, I’m not arguing that it’s a good thing. Just noting that it’s what’s happening.
Bob, I’m not arguing that it’s a good thing. Just noting that it’s what’s happening.
“We are all, left center right trying to hold on to each other at the edges of a centrifuge.”
Superb image.
Some are installing warp speed buttons on the hyper-centrifuge:
http://www.providencejournal.com/news/20170916/wjar-forced-to-run-pro-trump-programs
“We are all, left center right trying to hold on to each other at the edges of a centrifuge.”
Superb image.
Some are installing warp speed buttons on the hyper-centrifuge:
http://www.providencejournal.com/news/20170916/wjar-forced-to-run-pro-trump-programs
The End of Power:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/faa-deregulation-panels-recommendations-prompt-worries-from-safety-advocates-2017-09-17?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
Yeah, whose?
The End of Power:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/faa-deregulation-panels-recommendations-prompt-worries-from-safety-advocates-2017-09-17?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
Yeah, whose?
For GFTNC, a Beatle all in on Brexit:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4475030/ringo-starrs-support-for-brexit-completes-a-leave-backing-supergroup-to-compete-with-remainer-luvvies/
Hmmm, there were those in MoTown and folks like Fabian and Bobby Rydell who might have wanted to place U.S. import and immigration restrictions on the British Invasion too.
Especially because they were more popular than Jesus, whose followers proved back then to be thick and ordinary too.
Pete Best’s opinions on Brexit have not been solicited yet, but then he remained working class.
For GFTNC, a Beatle all in on Brexit:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4475030/ringo-starrs-support-for-brexit-completes-a-leave-backing-supergroup-to-compete-with-remainer-luvvies/
Hmmm, there were those in MoTown and folks like Fabian and Bobby Rydell who might have wanted to place U.S. import and immigration restrictions on the British Invasion too.
Especially because they were more popular than Jesus, whose followers proved back then to be thick and ordinary too.
Pete Best’s opinions on Brexit have not been solicited yet, but then he remained working class.
Novakant and GftNC, thanks for those takes on Lilla (and others). People’s histories follow them around, and the LRB link shows that despite the seeming reasonableness of Lilla and others claims, because of there they started, you can’t really take what they are saying as neutral.
As far as Ringo, genius on the drums, but really loves the bucks, as his forays into Japanese TV commercials indicate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__CpuXSphbU
Of course, if I were him, I’d probably do it too…
Novakant and GftNC, thanks for those takes on Lilla (and others). People’s histories follow them around, and the LRB link shows that despite the seeming reasonableness of Lilla and others claims, because of there they started, you can’t really take what they are saying as neutral.
As far as Ringo, genius on the drums, but really loves the bucks, as his forays into Japanese TV commercials indicate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__CpuXSphbU
Of course, if I were him, I’d probably do it too…
This is just by way of a test: my email has been out all day, and I can see no comments here after lj @ 01.58 AM. I seem to be able to search, but this is feeling rather weird, and I just want to see if this gets through…
This is just by way of a test: my email has been out all day, and I can see no comments here after lj @ 01.58 AM. I seem to be able to search, but this is feeling rather weird, and I just want to see if this gets through…
GftNC, it worked. And the comment from lj is also the last one I see.
I’m guessing that means we are due (overdue?) for a new thread. Maybe someone will step up….
GftNC, it worked. And the comment from lj is also the last one I see.
I’m guessing that means we are due (overdue?) for a new thread. Maybe someone will step up….
Re:
Girl from the North Country | September 17, 2017 at 02:59 PM
and
novakant | September 17, 2017 at 04:13 PM
Both interesting reads, for me particularly because I don’t know most of the writers being discussed, but the ideas are so familiar. It sounds like a cabal of some number of more genteel versions of Pat Buchanan.
Re:
Girl from the North Country | September 17, 2017 at 02:59 PM
and
novakant | September 17, 2017 at 04:13 PM
Both interesting reads, for me particularly because I don’t know most of the writers being discussed, but the ideas are so familiar. It sounds like a cabal of some number of more genteel versions of Pat Buchanan.
Yes, novakant, I meant to acknowledge: very interesting piece from the LRB, thank you.
Yes, novakant, I meant to acknowledge: very interesting piece from the LRB, thank you.
Copied and pasted from the Google news page, just for the weirdness:
I guess “related” is used very loosely here.
Copied and pasted from the Google news page, just for the weirdness:
I guess “related” is used very loosely here.
Sometimes, the algorithm used for these things seems either extremely crude or . . . very odd.
Sometimes, the algorithm used for these things seems either extremely crude or . . . very odd.
I remember when Google News use to place articles about impending capital punishment executions in the Health section.
I remember when Google News use to place articles about impending capital punishment executions in the Health section.
Maybe algorithms are designed to be sociopaths, like their human creators.
Murder …. and then tuck into a good meal, perhaps with a nice Chianti.
Execute a human being and then place the back of your hand on a child’s forehead to feel for fever.
All in one motion.
This really isn’t any different than your pretty blonde newscaster on the local news station segueing from dire footage of the human toll of pestilence and famine via a bright smile to “and up next, our food editor will show you a new ingredient for your morning smoothie that may shock you.”
All in a day’s work. We contain multitudes with only the slightest, if any, authentic emotion over any of them. All anxieties tranquilized. All boredom amused.
A sociopath like the stock market. Up 45 points today. Millions in North Korea, perhaps in Iran too, perhaps incinerated tomorrow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuBe93FMiJc
Am I getting through to ya, Mr, Beale?
Maybe algorithms are designed to be sociopaths, like their human creators.
Murder …. and then tuck into a good meal, perhaps with a nice Chianti.
Execute a human being and then place the back of your hand on a child’s forehead to feel for fever.
All in one motion.
This really isn’t any different than your pretty blonde newscaster on the local news station segueing from dire footage of the human toll of pestilence and famine via a bright smile to “and up next, our food editor will show you a new ingredient for your morning smoothie that may shock you.”
All in a day’s work. We contain multitudes with only the slightest, if any, authentic emotion over any of them. All anxieties tranquilized. All boredom amused.
A sociopath like the stock market. Up 45 points today. Millions in North Korea, perhaps in Iran too, perhaps incinerated tomorrow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuBe93FMiJc
Am I getting through to ya, Mr, Beale?
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/09/the-new-woman-in-trumps-life.html
To increase the share of those so-called Americans voting for sociopathic murderous Republicans, FOX is recruiting this Russian “news”woman too to anchor a show.
They’re calling it “Beavers in Glass Houses”.
Tune in and get a glimpse of insanity.
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/09/the-new-woman-in-trumps-life.html
To increase the share of those so-called Americans voting for sociopathic murderous Republicans, FOX is recruiting this Russian “news”woman too to anchor a show.
They’re calling it “Beavers in Glass Houses”.
Tune in and get a glimpse of insanity.
I remember seeing an article about cannibalism in Eastern Europe in a British tabloid Food section.
I remember seeing an article about cannibalism in Eastern Europe in a British tabloid Food section.
Sweetbreads?
Sweetbreads?
Here’s the missing link for the Russian news woman at 5:04 pm:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbk3fJsEfl4
She’s Italian, but so what.
Here’s the missing link for the Russian news woman at 5:04 pm:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbk3fJsEfl4
She’s Italian, but so what.
Mexico City experienced a devastating earthquake today.
In anticipation, rump and company ordered ICE to deport the Dreamers so they could make it back in time for the carnage and to experience a frisson of Walter Percy existential catastrophe whoopy.
Meanwhile, genocidal republicans on the other side of town are about to murder hundreds of thousands whose healthcare will disappear and who would probably rather be in Mexico City at the moment.
If North Korea and Iran would hurry and launch their nuclear weapons on Washington D.C., think of the human lives that would be saved.
As a country, we’re murderous sociopaths right up there with the worst of them.
Sick, sick perverted fucks.
It’s a pre-existing condition, a disease carried only by Americans.
I say pull the plug.
Mexico City experienced a devastating earthquake today.
In anticipation, rump and company ordered ICE to deport the Dreamers so they could make it back in time for the carnage and to experience a frisson of Walter Percy existential catastrophe whoopy.
Meanwhile, genocidal republicans on the other side of town are about to murder hundreds of thousands whose healthcare will disappear and who would probably rather be in Mexico City at the moment.
If North Korea and Iran would hurry and launch their nuclear weapons on Washington D.C., think of the human lives that would be saved.
As a country, we’re murderous sociopaths right up there with the worst of them.
Sick, sick perverted fucks.
It’s a pre-existing condition, a disease carried only by Americans.
I say pull the plug.
Meanwhile, in closing today, Rod Dreher drives me crazy and is a bit of a sexaholic, but one of those all hat and no cattle kinds. He loves talking about the plumbing:
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/liberal-women-are-lustier-regnerus/
I guess the Benedict Option (the book is in a stack on the table) does not feature a bidet.
Considering the past two weeks and anticipating nuclear war, more hurricane carnage, and kids being yanked from their health insurance before the IV chemo drip is finished over the next two weeks, I would rather meet one of those liberal women mentioned in the reviewed book because I sure wouldn’t want to hang out with a conservative woman during these end days.
She’d probably tell me Death of one kind or another would be good for me, a learning, ennobling, honorable, character-building experience that would make a man, albeit a dead one, outta me.
I’m not into cheap thrills much, but conservative women are merely expensive DeathsHeads. I am curious to know who exactly these conservative women are who “report” their frequency of masturbation, and WHO they are reporting to.
John Galt?
Meanwhile, in closing today, Rod Dreher drives me crazy and is a bit of a sexaholic, but one of those all hat and no cattle kinds. He loves talking about the plumbing:
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/liberal-women-are-lustier-regnerus/
I guess the Benedict Option (the book is in a stack on the table) does not feature a bidet.
Considering the past two weeks and anticipating nuclear war, more hurricane carnage, and kids being yanked from their health insurance before the IV chemo drip is finished over the next two weeks, I would rather meet one of those liberal women mentioned in the reviewed book because I sure wouldn’t want to hang out with a conservative woman during these end days.
She’d probably tell me Death of one kind or another would be good for me, a learning, ennobling, honorable, character-building experience that would make a man, albeit a dead one, outta me.
I’m not into cheap thrills much, but conservative women are merely expensive DeathsHeads. I am curious to know who exactly these conservative women are who “report” their frequency of masturbation, and WHO they are reporting to.
John Galt?