The Wheels of Justice – Weekend Open Thread

by

by wj

A couple of stories floated by this week, possibly to little notice outside their local areas. They aren’t related to each other, but may be apropos things happening elsewhere in the country.

Here, our County DA has resigned, after pleading guilty to 1 count of perjury. That was a plea deal, as he had been charged with 12 counts.

It seems that he had been using his 2011 re-election campaign funds as a personal ATM. When caught (a newspaper article back in December), he claimed he had considered it a loan, and (finally) paid it back. Except his filings had said explicitly that he had taken no loans. In all, some dozen forms, signed “under penalty of perjury” (something a DA would presumably know something about) contained false statements.

It’s been a big local story for months, including lots of reports of serious unhappiness in the DA’s office here. But once he announced he was going to run for re-election, that state Attorney General’s office got involved — leading to an indictment and trial. It took a while, but he’s gone. (And facing disbarment as well.)

Half way across the country, manslaughter charges have been filed against various Michigan state officials. They are charged, at least one with manslaughter charges, because they knew of the problems with the Flint, Michigan water supply but did or said nothing.

It’s common, in some circles, to say that the criminal justice system will never hold government officials responsible for their misdeeds. But an official is a fool (which, apparently some of them are) to assume that they will be able to skate if word gets out.

978 thoughts on “The Wheels of Justice – Weekend Open Thread”

  1. “In the 1970s, the United States had an incarceration rate comparable to those of other liberal democracies-and that rate had held steady for over 100 years. Yet today, though the US is home to only about 5 percent of the world’s population, we hold nearly one quarter of its prisoners. Mass incarceration is now widely considered one of the biggest social and political crises of our age. How did we get to this point?
    …Pfaff urges us to look at other factors instead, including a major shift in prosecutor behavior that occurred in the mid-1990s, when prosecutors began bringing felony charges against arrestees about twice as often as they had before. He describes a fractured criminal justice system, in which counties don’t pay for the people they send to state prisons, and in which white suburbs set law and order agendas for more-heavily minority cities. And he shows that if we hope to significantly reduce prison populations, we have no choice but to think differently about how to deal with people convicted of violent crimes-and why some people are violent in the first place.”
    Locked In: The True Causes of Mass Incarceration—and How to Achieve Real Reform

  2. “In the 1970s, the United States had an incarceration rate comparable to those of other liberal democracies-and that rate had held steady for over 100 years. Yet today, though the US is home to only about 5 percent of the world’s population, we hold nearly one quarter of its prisoners. Mass incarceration is now widely considered one of the biggest social and political crises of our age. How did we get to this point?
    …Pfaff urges us to look at other factors instead, including a major shift in prosecutor behavior that occurred in the mid-1990s, when prosecutors began bringing felony charges against arrestees about twice as often as they had before. He describes a fractured criminal justice system, in which counties don’t pay for the people they send to state prisons, and in which white suburbs set law and order agendas for more-heavily minority cities. And he shows that if we hope to significantly reduce prison populations, we have no choice but to think differently about how to deal with people convicted of violent crimes-and why some people are violent in the first place.”
    Locked In: The True Causes of Mass Incarceration—and How to Achieve Real Reform

  5. I’ve been having that same problem with links being messed up the first time I create them. Not sure why….

  6. I’ve been having that same problem with links being messed up the first time I create them. Not sure why….

  9. Traveling and without good internet at the moment but I do wonder if the timing of the change in prosecutorial behavior mentioned in CharlesWT’s link is connected to the crack cocaine epidemic…and, because what else if it’s the U.S., race.
    Further relevant reading: The New Jim Crow, by Michelle Alexander.

  10. Traveling and without good internet at the moment but I do wonder if the timing of the change in prosecutorial behavior mentioned in CharlesWT’s link is connected to the crack cocaine epidemic…and, because what else if it’s the U.S., race.
    Further relevant reading: The New Jim Crow, by Michelle Alexander.

  13. trump’s kids just purchased Grenfell Towers. They are raising the rents leasing it’s skeletal, charred remains as is to our own Department of Health and Human Services, from whence the new, sprinkler-free American Health Care Act shall be de-adminstered.
    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-06-16/beware-of-blaming-government-for-london-tower-fire
    They are going to rename the joint Fawlty Towers. Avoid the elevators when exiting the building.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrAKFakK3i8

  14. trump’s kids just purchased Grenfell Towers. They are raising the rents leasing it’s skeletal, charred remains as is to our own Department of Health and Human Services, from whence the new, sprinkler-free American Health Care Act shall be de-adminstered.
    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-06-16/beware-of-blaming-government-for-london-tower-fire
    They are going to rename the joint Fawlty Towers. Avoid the elevators when exiting the building.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrAKFakK3i8

  15. I suspect that the increase in felony charges was attributable to three strikes, where only felonies counted.

  16. I suspect that the increase in felony charges was attributable to three strikes, where only felonies counted.

  17. The author’s thesis, even though the war on drugs and other factors play a role, is that prosecutorial behavior is the driving force behind mass incarceration.
    From the same link:
    “Locked In is a revelatory investigation into the root causes of mass incarceration… Having spent fifteen years studying the data on imprisonment, John Pfaff takes apart the reigning consensus created by Michelle Alexander and other reformers, revealing that the most widely accepted explanations-the failed War on Drugs, draconian sentencing laws, an increasing reliance on private prisons-tell us much less than we think.”

  18. The author’s thesis, even though the war on drugs and other factors play a role, is that prosecutorial behavior is the driving force behind mass incarceration.
    From the same link:
    “Locked In is a revelatory investigation into the root causes of mass incarceration… Having spent fifteen years studying the data on imprisonment, John Pfaff takes apart the reigning consensus created by Michelle Alexander and other reformers, revealing that the most widely accepted explanations-the failed War on Drugs, draconian sentencing laws, an increasing reliance on private prisons-tell us much less than we think.”

  21. trump’s kids just purchased Grenfell Towers.
    Megan freaking McArdle.
    Is it reality, or is it the Onion? Every day, it’s harder to tell.

  22. trump’s kids just purchased Grenfell Towers.
    Megan freaking McArdle.
    Is it reality, or is it the Onion? Every day, it’s harder to tell.

  23. The wheels of injustice: Philando Castile. People are talking about it, but not much to say. At least it was prosecuted. I listened to his mother’s lawyer, and his mother. No words.

  24. The wheels of injustice: Philando Castile. People are talking about it, but not much to say. At least it was prosecuted. I listened to his mother’s lawyer, and his mother. No words.

  27. Amazon is purchasing Whole Foods:
    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/as-amazon-goes-big-in-brick-and-mortar-it-has-tech-to-fight-the-monster-it-created-2017-06-16?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
    Key takeaways (pronounced “takeeahwees” per Australian aboriginal)
    “In late May, Amazon was granted a patent called “physical store online shopping control,” which, using a store’s Wi-Fi, will block requests sent to competitor websites. The patent says: “In the event that requested content is determined to be associated with or potentially associated with a competitor or an item of interest, one or more control actions may be directed on behalf of the retailer. In this regard, online shopping control may be provided on behalf of the retailer.” The patent, first reported by the Verge earlier this week, initially baffled some, but now makes sense.”
    Apparently, they will also have one-way glass in the store-front windows so you can’t see out and glimpse the Kroger store across the street. In addition, your cell phone will issue an electric shock near your crotch every time you pass the organic celery at Whole Foods and think to yourself, “I could get that for half the price down the street at the discount “Partly Foods”.
    Ouch!
    More:
    “It will also triangulate your position in the store, market to you while you are in the store, and understand your behavior in the store,”
    This is going to make shoplifting the leg of lamb out of the place in your underwear just that much tougher for the uninsured 99%. I don’t want to be triangulated. It made me mad when the Clintons did it and don’t think I’m going to stand for it from Bezos. Will there be a little red laser light dot targeted on your forehead as you move through the store? If I wanted that, I’d be a republican.
    What’s that you say?:
    “You passed the milk, you always get milk,” your smartphone may tell you while shopping.’
    Harassed by the milk. “You forgot the milk? You bought the gin And the tonic, I see, and yet the kids must go without milk. I don’t know why I bother sending you to the store”, the milk will nag.
    Maybe I could install an app on my phone that convinces the milk to sneak out of the store and follow me into the parking lot, where I can kidnap it for free. If the authorities object, I’ll blame the milk for stalking me.
    The cans of peas will admonish you via your cellphone in your mother’s voice as you pass by them without picking up a can or two: “Buy your peas, or you’ll stand here until you do. And no dessert for you! You just don’t know what is good, and good for you, too!”
    The luscious desserts in the bakery will chime in like Sirens on your phone, “We are here for you. You may have us. C’mon, handsome, just one can of peas and we are yours, mon ami.”
    How bout them talking cigarettes near the exit?
    “What do you mean you quit years ago? Science, schlmience, don’t listen to those busybodies. Go ahead, no one is watching. Triangulating maybe, but watching? NOOOOO. We are very discreet and won’t tell the wellness app your employer put on your phone to track your tobacco intake. The breath mints are to your right.”
    In other news, my Roomba got rid of my mop without telling me. I also caught it in flagrante delicto with my food processor in the closet.

  28. Amazon is purchasing Whole Foods:
    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/as-amazon-goes-big-in-brick-and-mortar-it-has-tech-to-fight-the-monster-it-created-2017-06-16?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
    Key takeaways (pronounced “takeeahwees” per Australian aboriginal)
    “In late May, Amazon was granted a patent called “physical store online shopping control,” which, using a store’s Wi-Fi, will block requests sent to competitor websites. The patent says: “In the event that requested content is determined to be associated with or potentially associated with a competitor or an item of interest, one or more control actions may be directed on behalf of the retailer. In this regard, online shopping control may be provided on behalf of the retailer.” The patent, first reported by the Verge earlier this week, initially baffled some, but now makes sense.”
    Apparently, they will also have one-way glass in the store-front windows so you can’t see out and glimpse the Kroger store across the street. In addition, your cell phone will issue an electric shock near your crotch every time you pass the organic celery at Whole Foods and think to yourself, “I could get that for half the price down the street at the discount “Partly Foods”.
    Ouch!
    More:
    “It will also triangulate your position in the store, market to you while you are in the store, and understand your behavior in the store,”
    This is going to make shoplifting the leg of lamb out of the place in your underwear just that much tougher for the uninsured 99%. I don’t want to be triangulated. It made me mad when the Clintons did it and don’t think I’m going to stand for it from Bezos. Will there be a little red laser light dot targeted on your forehead as you move through the store? If I wanted that, I’d be a republican.
    What’s that you say?:
    “You passed the milk, you always get milk,” your smartphone may tell you while shopping.’
    Harassed by the milk. “You forgot the milk? You bought the gin And the tonic, I see, and yet the kids must go without milk. I don’t know why I bother sending you to the store”, the milk will nag.
    Maybe I could install an app on my phone that convinces the milk to sneak out of the store and follow me into the parking lot, where I can kidnap it for free. If the authorities object, I’ll blame the milk for stalking me.
    The cans of peas will admonish you via your cellphone in your mother’s voice as you pass by them without picking up a can or two: “Buy your peas, or you’ll stand here until you do. And no dessert for you! You just don’t know what is good, and good for you, too!”
    The luscious desserts in the bakery will chime in like Sirens on your phone, “We are here for you. You may have us. C’mon, handsome, just one can of peas and we are yours, mon ami.”
    How bout them talking cigarettes near the exit?
    “What do you mean you quit years ago? Science, schlmience, don’t listen to those busybodies. Go ahead, no one is watching. Triangulating maybe, but watching? NOOOOO. We are very discreet and won’t tell the wellness app your employer put on your phone to track your tobacco intake. The breath mints are to your right.”
    In other news, my Roomba got rid of my mop without telling me. I also caught it in flagrante delicto with my food processor in the closet.

  31. I saw that mention of the patent for keeping you from checking prices elsewhere. Personally, if I encounter a store using something like that, I’m going to abandon my cart full of groceries and walk out.
    If Amazon is smart, they will respond to the stories about the patent by saying that they patented it to prevent competitors from implementing it, or something similar.

  32. I saw that mention of the patent for keeping you from checking prices elsewhere. Personally, if I encounter a store using something like that, I’m going to abandon my cart full of groceries and walk out.
    If Amazon is smart, they will respond to the stories about the patent by saying that they patented it to prevent competitors from implementing it, or something similar.

  33. “Personally, if I encounter a store using something like that, I’m going to abandon my cart full of groceries and walk out.”
    No, as you browse and shop inside the store, the aisles will be shifting and rearranging themselves behind you, preventing retreat. Exit doors will only appear after you have paid for the products that browbeat you into buying them.
    If you ask to talk to management, a matron will appear, introduce herself as Felicity T. Kafka, who will ask “How may you help us?” and present you with a bill of indictment listing of vague, unspecified guilts, some metaphysical, others related to product placement. A lynch mob of products you chose to ignore via free will gather around you and reenact “The Ox-Bow Incident” with you as the Dana Andrews character.

  34. “Personally, if I encounter a store using something like that, I’m going to abandon my cart full of groceries and walk out.”
    No, as you browse and shop inside the store, the aisles will be shifting and rearranging themselves behind you, preventing retreat. Exit doors will only appear after you have paid for the products that browbeat you into buying them.
    If you ask to talk to management, a matron will appear, introduce herself as Felicity T. Kafka, who will ask “How may you help us?” and present you with a bill of indictment listing of vague, unspecified guilts, some metaphysical, others related to product placement. A lynch mob of products you chose to ignore via free will gather around you and reenact “The Ox-Bow Incident” with you as the Dana Andrews character.

  35. Count, did your love for the British invasion extend to poetry, and in particular the Liverpool poets (Adrian Henri, Brian Patten and Roger McGough – see The Mersey Sound anthology)? Your final paragraph at 06.01 above reminds me very much of Roger McGough’s lovely series of love poems, Summer with Monika. I’ve tried to find the relevant section, but I can’t find it in written form (as opposed to spoken) online. It’s very charming, and very Liverpudlian, I think you might like it. Below is one of Roger McGough’s most famous poems from that era, “Let Me Die a Youngman’s Death”:
    Let me die a youngman’s death
    not a clean and inbetween
    the sheets holywater death
    not a famous-last-words
    peaceful out of breath death
    When I’m 73
    and in constant good tumour
    may I be mown down at dawn
    by a bright red sports car
    on my way home
    from an allnight party
    Or when I’m 91
    with silver hair
    and sitting in a barber’s chair
    may rival gangsters
    with hamfisted tommyguns burst in
    and give me a short back and insides
    Or when I’m 104
    and banned from the Cavern
    may my mistress
    catching me in bed with her daughter
    and fearing for her son
    cut me up into little pieces
    and throw away every piece but one
    Let me die a youngman’s death
    not a free from sin tiptoe in
    candle wax and waning death
    not a curtains drawn by angels borne
    ‘what a nice way to go’ death

  36. Count, did your love for the British invasion extend to poetry, and in particular the Liverpool poets (Adrian Henri, Brian Patten and Roger McGough – see The Mersey Sound anthology)? Your final paragraph at 06.01 above reminds me very much of Roger McGough’s lovely series of love poems, Summer with Monika. I’ve tried to find the relevant section, but I can’t find it in written form (as opposed to spoken) online. It’s very charming, and very Liverpudlian, I think you might like it. Below is one of Roger McGough’s most famous poems from that era, “Let Me Die a Youngman’s Death”:
    Let me die a youngman’s death
    not a clean and inbetween
    the sheets holywater death
    not a famous-last-words
    peaceful out of breath death
    When I’m 73
    and in constant good tumour
    may I be mown down at dawn
    by a bright red sports car
    on my way home
    from an allnight party
    Or when I’m 91
    with silver hair
    and sitting in a barber’s chair
    may rival gangsters
    with hamfisted tommyguns burst in
    and give me a short back and insides
    Or when I’m 104
    and banned from the Cavern
    may my mistress
    catching me in bed with her daughter
    and fearing for her son
    cut me up into little pieces
    and throw away every piece but one
    Let me die a youngman’s death
    not a free from sin tiptoe in
    candle wax and waning death
    not a curtains drawn by angels borne
    ‘what a nice way to go’ death

  41. I shop at Whole Foods, and I like it. I read the Washington Post, and I like it. I am an Amazon Prime customer, and I like that too.
    Not sure why I should be hating Jeff Bezos. Sorry. More proof that I’m a neoliberal.

  42. I shop at Whole Foods, and I like it. I read the Washington Post, and I like it. I am an Amazon Prime customer, and I like that too.
    Not sure why I should be hating Jeff Bezos. Sorry. More proof that I’m a neoliberal.

  43. “I shop at Whole Foods, and I like it. I read the Washington Post, and I like it. I am an Amazon Prime customer, and I like that too.”
    Me too, more or less.
    But if he was a lover and you jilted him/her, I get the feeling he would suddenly begin turning up everywhere, at the bookstore, dressed as a milkman and putting two quarts on your doorstep every morning so he could glimpse you in your bathrobe, as the paperboy.
    He’s like the Burger King, staring at you with a frozen, cracked grin and asking “Got milk?” at inopportune times.
    It’s Friday. Just having a bit of fun.

  44. “I shop at Whole Foods, and I like it. I read the Washington Post, and I like it. I am an Amazon Prime customer, and I like that too.”
    Me too, more or less.
    But if he was a lover and you jilted him/her, I get the feeling he would suddenly begin turning up everywhere, at the bookstore, dressed as a milkman and putting two quarts on your doorstep every morning so he could glimpse you in your bathrobe, as the paperboy.
    He’s like the Burger King, staring at you with a frozen, cracked grin and asking “Got milk?” at inopportune times.
    It’s Friday. Just having a bit of fun.

  45. The peak in violent crime in that was the motivation for tough-on-crime policies and three strikes and mandatory minimum sentences — turns out to be mostly explained by the petrocorps decision to add tetraethyl lead to gasoline. Their scientists knew that it was deadly when the decision was made, from horrible experience with trifling accidentla exposures in the lab.
    So a generation of young people, primarily in cities, were poisoned in such a way as to permanently damage their impulse control, and those people were incarcerated in huge numbers as their behavioral deficiencies ran them afoul of the increasingly-punitive laws.
    The crackdown did nothing to stem the elevated incidence of crime; only when lead was removed from our motor fuels, and after enough years passed that the victims grew old, did crime markedly decline.
    The petrocorp execs who made the decisions that created the situation suffered no consequences except perhaps burglary by one of their victims.
    It was our own private slo-mo Bhopal.

  46. The peak in violent crime in that was the motivation for tough-on-crime policies and three strikes and mandatory minimum sentences — turns out to be mostly explained by the petrocorps decision to add tetraethyl lead to gasoline. Their scientists knew that it was deadly when the decision was made, from horrible experience with trifling accidentla exposures in the lab.
    So a generation of young people, primarily in cities, were poisoned in such a way as to permanently damage their impulse control, and those people were incarcerated in huge numbers as their behavioral deficiencies ran them afoul of the increasingly-punitive laws.
    The crackdown did nothing to stem the elevated incidence of crime; only when lead was removed from our motor fuels, and after enough years passed that the victims grew old, did crime markedly decline.
    The petrocorp execs who made the decisions that created the situation suffered no consequences except perhaps burglary by one of their victims.
    It was our own private slo-mo Bhopal.

  47. via Charles Pierce regarding the subject of fishing expeditions:
    ‘To gain some perspective, let’s listen in to a White House conversation from June 21, 1972, via The New York Times. The president at the time was concerned about some law-enforcement activities. His chief of staff was called upon to explain matters.
    “The problem is that there are all kinds of other involvements and if they started a fishing expedition on this they’re going to start picking up tracks. . . . The only tie they’ve got to the White House is that this guy’s name was in their books, Howard Hunt, and that Hunt used to be a consultant —- to Colson at the White House. . . . You’ve got to be careful of pushing that too hard, because he was working on a lot of stuff. . . . It leads to other things.”‘

  48. via Charles Pierce regarding the subject of fishing expeditions:
    ‘To gain some perspective, let’s listen in to a White House conversation from June 21, 1972, via The New York Times. The president at the time was concerned about some law-enforcement activities. His chief of staff was called upon to explain matters.
    “The problem is that there are all kinds of other involvements and if they started a fishing expedition on this they’re going to start picking up tracks. . . . The only tie they’ve got to the White House is that this guy’s name was in their books, Howard Hunt, and that Hunt used to be a consultant —- to Colson at the White House. . . . You’ve got to be careful of pushing that too hard, because he was working on a lot of stuff. . . . It leads to other things.”‘

  49. Joel Hanes, that makes sense.
    Interesting that trump and sessions are long lead and prison futures.

  50. Joel Hanes, that makes sense.
    Interesting that trump and sessions are long lead and prison futures.

  51. he would suddenly begin turning up everywhere
    That’s something one got used to a long time ago.

  52. he would suddenly begin turning up everywhere
    That’s something one got used to a long time ago.

  53. Megan freaking McArdle…
    Doing her usual act of taking a sensible principle (in this case the cost/benefit analysis of regulation), and applying to it her impressively profound ignorance.

  54. Megan freaking McArdle…
    Doing her usual act of taking a sensible principle (in this case the cost/benefit analysis of regulation), and applying to it her impressively profound ignorance.

  55. GFTNC:
    Thanks, I’ll look up those poets.
    Also, the only time I go to Whole Paycheck is to have coffee meetings with people I want to impress with my financial or business acumen. (Although typing that it seems like it should be counterproductive.) I finally bought something from Amazon this year but the Prime thing doesn’t matter because I cant afford beef and well WaPo sucks.
    But most of the money I have left is invested in AMZN so thank you all.

  56. GFTNC:
    Thanks, I’ll look up those poets.
    Also, the only time I go to Whole Paycheck is to have coffee meetings with people I want to impress with my financial or business acumen. (Although typing that it seems like it should be counterproductive.) I finally bought something from Amazon this year but the Prime thing doesn’t matter because I cant afford beef and well WaPo sucks.
    But most of the money I have left is invested in AMZN so thank you all.

  57. Marty, you’re welcome! So happy I can enjoy myself for your increased wealth!
    GftNC, the latest episode of Handmaid’s Tale made me so sad because the US can’t be a haven refugees, like Canada is for Moira. There is so much to say about that story, but the opportunity to save people in distress – of all the things that Trump is doing to the US, destroying that is what I hate him most for.

  58. Marty, you’re welcome! So happy I can enjoy myself for your increased wealth!
    GftNC, the latest episode of Handmaid’s Tale made me so sad because the US can’t be a haven refugees, like Canada is for Moira. There is so much to say about that story, but the opportunity to save people in distress – of all the things that Trump is doing to the US, destroying that is what I hate him most for.

  65. Another insight into how divided our country is:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/americas-new-tobacco-crisis-the-rich-stopped-smoking-the-poor-didnt/2017/06/13/a63b42ba-4c8c-11e7-9669-250d0b15f83b_story.html?utm_term=.1565b8a02515
    It occurs to me that, these days, if I see someone smoking in a movie, either it is half a century or more old, or the individual is poor/lower class . . . or at least grew up poor. Because, among “people like me,” essentially nobody smokes.
    (My father smoked the whole time I was growing up. But that was a different generation. By 60 his lungs were trashed — as in, carting an oxygen tank around full time. By 70, he had decided to end it all to stop the pain. And did; pills.)
    It will be interesting to see if the anti-smoking folks can figure out how to connect with and persuade the rather different population that they need to reach now.

  66. Another insight into how divided our country is:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/americas-new-tobacco-crisis-the-rich-stopped-smoking-the-poor-didnt/2017/06/13/a63b42ba-4c8c-11e7-9669-250d0b15f83b_story.html?utm_term=.1565b8a02515
    It occurs to me that, these days, if I see someone smoking in a movie, either it is half a century or more old, or the individual is poor/lower class . . . or at least grew up poor. Because, among “people like me,” essentially nobody smokes.
    (My father smoked the whole time I was growing up. But that was a different generation. By 60 his lungs were trashed — as in, carting an oxygen tank around full time. By 70, he had decided to end it all to stop the pain. And did; pills.)
    It will be interesting to see if the anti-smoking folks can figure out how to connect with and persuade the rather different population that they need to reach now.

  67. Before the thread turns too hilarious,
    Steve Scalise is David Duke without the baggage is, we hope, on the mend.
    Meanwhile Philando Castile is past mending, and the jury found his killer to be a-okay.
    I’m going to Whole Foods to get me some kale chips.

  68. Before the thread turns too hilarious,
    Steve Scalise is David Duke without the baggage is, we hope, on the mend.
    Meanwhile Philando Castile is past mending, and the jury found his killer to be a-okay.
    I’m going to Whole Foods to get me some kale chips.

  71. It will be interesting to see if the anti-smoking folks can figure out how to connect with and persuade the rather different population that they need to reach now.
    One way is for them, and various government entities, is to stop treating vaping as the same as and as bad as smoking.

  72. It will be interesting to see if the anti-smoking folks can figure out how to connect with and persuade the rather different population that they need to reach now.
    One way is for them, and various government entities, is to stop treating vaping as the same as and as bad as smoking.

  73. Is there any data on how bad vaping really is? Or isn’t? Preferably data that isn’t from a tobacco company, of course.
    That is, is it actually harmless, or just less bad (if it is)?

  74. Is there any data on how bad vaping really is? Or isn’t? Preferably data that isn’t from a tobacco company, of course.
    That is, is it actually harmless, or just less bad (if it is)?

  75. Is there any data on how bad vaping really is?
    So, sorry CharlesWT. This is something that a government (or non-partisan) research initiative should be studying.
    I’m definitely on the side of vapes (if they’re safe), and am opposed to stigmatizing the vaping industry … but want to have data from entities not profiting from happy results.

  76. Is there any data on how bad vaping really is?
    So, sorry CharlesWT. This is something that a government (or non-partisan) research initiative should be studying.
    I’m definitely on the side of vapes (if they’re safe), and am opposed to stigmatizing the vaping industry … but want to have data from entities not profiting from happy results.

  77. Amazon is purchasing Whole Foods
    all your base are belong to jeff bezos
    Doing her usual act
    she usually waits until all the dead are buried before weighing in.
    so, a personal best, of sorts.
    Is there any data on how bad vaping really is?
    probably not as bad as consuming nicotine in the form smoke of burning leaves, plus whatever other crap they load cigarettes up with nowadays.
    that said, nicotine is, all by itself, an excellent pesticicde.

  78. Amazon is purchasing Whole Foods
    all your base are belong to jeff bezos
    Doing her usual act
    she usually waits until all the dead are buried before weighing in.
    so, a personal best, of sorts.
    Is there any data on how bad vaping really is?
    probably not as bad as consuming nicotine in the form smoke of burning leaves, plus whatever other crap they load cigarettes up with nowadays.
    that said, nicotine is, all by itself, an excellent pesticicde.

  79. E-Cigarettes don’t have the carcinogens and toxins that cigarettes do.
    A lot the objections to vaping seems to be that some people just can’t abide the appearance of smoking. They prefer to eliminate this visual pron than to allow, if not encourage, people to do something less harmful to themselves.
    “Many people think the risks of e-cigarettes are the same as smoking tobacco and this report clarifies the truth of this.
    In a nutshell, best estimates show e-cigarettes are 95% less harmful to your health than normal cigarettes, and when supported by a smoking cessation service, help most smokers to quit tobacco altogether.”
    E-cigarettes: an evidence update: A report commissioned by Public Health England (pdf)

  80. E-Cigarettes don’t have the carcinogens and toxins that cigarettes do.
    A lot the objections to vaping seems to be that some people just can’t abide the appearance of smoking. They prefer to eliminate this visual pron than to allow, if not encourage, people to do something less harmful to themselves.
    “Many people think the risks of e-cigarettes are the same as smoking tobacco and this report clarifies the truth of this.
    In a nutshell, best estimates show e-cigarettes are 95% less harmful to your health than normal cigarettes, and when supported by a smoking cessation service, help most smokers to quit tobacco altogether.”
    E-cigarettes: an evidence update: A report commissioned by Public Health England (pdf)

  83. some people just can’t abide the appearance of smoking. They prefer to eliminate this visual pron than to allow, if not encourage, people to do something less harmful to themselves.
    Always assuming that people who are vaping would otherwise be smoking. But my (entirely subjective) impression is that vaping is marketed to upscale kids who otherwise would not be consuming tobacco. Rather than being bought by folks who otherwise would be smoking.
    That is, it’s a tool to expand the market for the product. Not an alternate (perhaps less harmful) way for the existing market to consume.

  84. some people just can’t abide the appearance of smoking. They prefer to eliminate this visual pron than to allow, if not encourage, people to do something less harmful to themselves.
    Always assuming that people who are vaping would otherwise be smoking. But my (entirely subjective) impression is that vaping is marketed to upscale kids who otherwise would not be consuming tobacco. Rather than being bought by folks who otherwise would be smoking.
    That is, it’s a tool to expand the market for the product. Not an alternate (perhaps less harmful) way for the existing market to consume.

  85. fwiw, my stepson is a vaper. his brother in law got him vaping instead of smoking tobacco. i see that as a positive move.
    i dont care if folks vape, or smoke. i’d prefer that they not do either in enclosed rooms that i am also in, other than that, do as you wish.
    all of that said, nicotine is not good for you. there are things that are worse, probably including some joneses of my own.
    i’m not judging smokers or vapers. if you think vaping is harmless, you’re mistaken, that’s all.
    to the OP, in addition to being violent, Americans are to my eye unusually fond of punishing each other. that inclination varies, markedly, by class and color of skin.
    we may not be the champions of freedom that we perceive ourselves to be.

  86. fwiw, my stepson is a vaper. his brother in law got him vaping instead of smoking tobacco. i see that as a positive move.
    i dont care if folks vape, or smoke. i’d prefer that they not do either in enclosed rooms that i am also in, other than that, do as you wish.
    all of that said, nicotine is not good for you. there are things that are worse, probably including some joneses of my own.
    i’m not judging smokers or vapers. if you think vaping is harmless, you’re mistaken, that’s all.
    to the OP, in addition to being violent, Americans are to my eye unusually fond of punishing each other. that inclination varies, markedly, by class and color of skin.
    we may not be the champions of freedom that we perceive ourselves to be.

  87. sapient @ 08.04p.m., I do so agree with you. The “Send me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free” may have been rose-tinted, but it was a beacon in the world, and a wonderful aspiration from a nation that saw itself, and wanted to see itself, that way. Whereas now, the image is more of a booted foot stamping on a human face (again, is this from 1984? I think so). Hopefully not for long, but history will be the judge.

  88. sapient @ 08.04p.m., I do so agree with you. The “Send me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free” may have been rose-tinted, but it was a beacon in the world, and a wonderful aspiration from a nation that saw itself, and wanted to see itself, that way. Whereas now, the image is more of a booted foot stamping on a human face (again, is this from 1984? I think so). Hopefully not for long, but history will be the judge.

  91. The “Send me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free” may have been rose-tinted, but it was a beacon in the world
    And it brought us an enormous number of hardworking and talented people. Talent — not something we are particularly adept at identifying in new arrivals. But look at what immigrants, and the first generation children of immigrants, have built and accomplished. We would be far poorer without them.
    Which is enormously self-centered, I know. But Americans are like that. 😉

  92. The “Send me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free” may have been rose-tinted, but it was a beacon in the world
    And it brought us an enormous number of hardworking and talented people. Talent — not something we are particularly adept at identifying in new arrivals. But look at what immigrants, and the first generation children of immigrants, have built and accomplished. We would be far poorer without them.
    Which is enormously self-centered, I know. But Americans are like that. 😉

  93. I think the main problems with vaping are product safety (although Harold Lloyd could tell you stories about the risks of traditional exploding tobacco products) and insufficient control/regulation of the additives in the liquids.
    —
    on the lead tetraethyl hypothesis, this might partially explain spikes in crime but not the vastly different sentencing in the US vs. civilized countries.

  94. I think the main problems with vaping are product safety (although Harold Lloyd could tell you stories about the risks of traditional exploding tobacco products) and insufficient control/regulation of the additives in the liquids.
    —
    on the lead tetraethyl hypothesis, this might partially explain spikes in crime but not the vastly different sentencing in the US vs. civilized countries.

  95. Which is enormously self-centered, I know.
    That’s not how I see it, wj. I see it as one of the rare occasions where one can truthfully say what is normally comforting but untruthful, virtue is amply rewarded.

  96. Which is enormously self-centered, I know.
    That’s not how I see it, wj. I see it as one of the rare occasions where one can truthfully say what is normally comforting but untruthful, virtue is amply rewarded.

  97. I think the lead argument is pretty compelling to explain widespread anti-social behavior. My understanding is that the rise of violent crime in China’s urban areas has coincided with industrialization without environmental controls.
    Sadly, Flint might be another long term study on the effects of lead on developing minds.

  98. I think the lead argument is pretty compelling to explain widespread anti-social behavior. My understanding is that the rise of violent crime in China’s urban areas has coincided with industrialization without environmental controls.
    Sadly, Flint might be another long term study on the effects of lead on developing minds.

  99. Philando Castile
    somehow, the good guy with a gun didn’t stop the bad guy with a gun.

  100. Philando Castile
    somehow, the good guy with a gun didn’t stop the bad guy with a gun.

  107. Workers shouldn’t have to rely on the generosity of corporations to be treated fairly. That’s why there are such things as labor laws. If Amazon isn’t complying, they need to be penalized.

  108. Workers shouldn’t have to rely on the generosity of corporations to be treated fairly. That’s why there are such things as labor laws. If Amazon isn’t complying, they need to be penalized.

  109. Sometimes I wish Newt Gingrich could play baseball:
    http://juanitajean.com/this-will-hurt-your-neck/
    But he has no talent for that either. If the man would only become addicted to cocaine and crack, he could stand in as the Mayor of MunchkinToronto.
    Regarding Amazon, and as a shareholder (huge stake, five shares), the federal government (everywhere) should bring the hammer down on Amazon’s labor practices.
    They need a union.
    That said, owning Amazon stock is almost exactly like being on welfare. I sit on my ass and the dollars, in this case capital gains, come rolling in. If I sold my shares right now, I could load up on steak at the grocery store just like those SNAP proles everyone looks down their fucking conservative, judgemental noses at.
    To add insult to injury for the whining jagoffs out there, I bought my shares with my saved wages from having a federal job, labor which many conservatives spend inordinate amounts of time and effort trying to prove I was overpaid for.
    Further, I plan on buying more Amazon shares if they dip with my Federal pension income, the bane of republican conservative taxpayers who believe I’m on the theft dole.
    Two words: fuck off.
    I own some Costco shares too. They pay decent wages for the labor of human beings.

  110. Sometimes I wish Newt Gingrich could play baseball:
    http://juanitajean.com/this-will-hurt-your-neck/
    But he has no talent for that either. If the man would only become addicted to cocaine and crack, he could stand in as the Mayor of MunchkinToronto.
    Regarding Amazon, and as a shareholder (huge stake, five shares), the federal government (everywhere) should bring the hammer down on Amazon’s labor practices.
    They need a union.
    That said, owning Amazon stock is almost exactly like being on welfare. I sit on my ass and the dollars, in this case capital gains, come rolling in. If I sold my shares right now, I could load up on steak at the grocery store just like those SNAP proles everyone looks down their fucking conservative, judgemental noses at.
    To add insult to injury for the whining jagoffs out there, I bought my shares with my saved wages from having a federal job, labor which many conservatives spend inordinate amounts of time and effort trying to prove I was overpaid for.
    Further, I plan on buying more Amazon shares if they dip with my Federal pension income, the bane of republican conservative taxpayers who believe I’m on the theft dole.
    Two words: fuck off.
    I own some Costco shares too. They pay decent wages for the labor of human beings.

  111. I like to read this at DKOS, one of the few things I read in full there:
    http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/6/14/1652695/-I-wonder-what-would-happen-if-we-all-went-turkey-hunting-disguised-as-turkeys-GunFAIL-CCXLI
    Redstate has a similar feature with a slightly different slant every month called “So Many People To Shoot, So Little Time”.
    My takeaway is that conservative Second Amendment aficionados and their base will eventually kill all of themselves and their children and some of the neighbors’ children as well without intervention from insane, criminal nutcases like Hodgkinson.
    I don’t want to leave out the inner-city minority gangs. They kill themselves too and would fight just as savagely as Ted Nugent would if their weapons were confiscated.
    There is nothing that can be done.
    Thank you, Scalise.

  112. I like to read this at DKOS, one of the few things I read in full there:
    http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/6/14/1652695/-I-wonder-what-would-happen-if-we-all-went-turkey-hunting-disguised-as-turkeys-GunFAIL-CCXLI
    Redstate has a similar feature with a slightly different slant every month called “So Many People To Shoot, So Little Time”.
    My takeaway is that conservative Second Amendment aficionados and their base will eventually kill all of themselves and their children and some of the neighbors’ children as well without intervention from insane, criminal nutcases like Hodgkinson.
    I don’t want to leave out the inner-city minority gangs. They kill themselves too and would fight just as savagely as Ted Nugent would if their weapons were confiscated.
    There is nothing that can be done.
    Thank you, Scalise.

  113. Workers shouldn’t have to rely on the generosity of corporations to be treated fairly
    corporations should not require the stick of the law to compel thm to treat their employees fairly.
    and by “fairly” I do not mean “what the market will bear”.
    There is nothing that can be done.
    when there are lots and lots of guns around, it’s more likely that folks will get shot.
    that’s not an argument for or against anything, it’s the equivalent of saying the more people drive, the more likely they are to get in a car accident.
    stuff like this is not inevitable. it’s the logical consequence of choices we make.

  114. Workers shouldn’t have to rely on the generosity of corporations to be treated fairly
    corporations should not require the stick of the law to compel thm to treat their employees fairly.
    and by “fairly” I do not mean “what the market will bear”.
    There is nothing that can be done.
    when there are lots and lots of guns around, it’s more likely that folks will get shot.
    that’s not an argument for or against anything, it’s the equivalent of saying the more people drive, the more likely they are to get in a car accident.
    stuff like this is not inevitable. it’s the logical consequence of choices we make.

  115. corporations should not require the stick of the law to compel them to treat their employees fairly.
    I disagree with this in a way, although it’s great that some corporations step up (such as Costco, as the Count points out). It’s unrealistic because of the way “for profit,” “public” corporations are set up to work for shareholders. I hire workers to help me in my home and yard, and I pay them a good wage. I’m not responsible to shareholders, though. That’s why “public” corporations need to be accountable to “public” expectations and regulations.
    Public corporations die if they don’t make money for shareholders. You can complain about that all you want, but corporations aren’t set up to be moral entities. They need society’s moral force (law and regulation) to make them adhere to whatever standards we demand. It’s ridiculous (and, honestly, contrary to their own fiduciary responsibilities to shareholders) to expect them to be “nice”. We can change that! Through laws.
    Costco is “nice” and their shares do well, so they’ve found a sweet spot. Good for them, and when I go to a big box store, I go there. That’s cool – but laws are better.

  116. corporations should not require the stick of the law to compel them to treat their employees fairly.
    I disagree with this in a way, although it’s great that some corporations step up (such as Costco, as the Count points out). It’s unrealistic because of the way “for profit,” “public” corporations are set up to work for shareholders. I hire workers to help me in my home and yard, and I pay them a good wage. I’m not responsible to shareholders, though. That’s why “public” corporations need to be accountable to “public” expectations and regulations.
    Public corporations die if they don’t make money for shareholders. You can complain about that all you want, but corporations aren’t set up to be moral entities. They need society’s moral force (law and regulation) to make them adhere to whatever standards we demand. It’s ridiculous (and, honestly, contrary to their own fiduciary responsibilities to shareholders) to expect them to be “nice”. We can change that! Through laws.
    Costco is “nice” and their shares do well, so they’ve found a sweet spot. Good for them, and when I go to a big box store, I go there. That’s cool – but laws are better.

  117. Costco’s business plan requires fewer, but higher performing, employees. They get paid accordingly.

  118. Costco’s business plan requires fewer, but higher performing, employees. They get paid accordingly.

  119. Costco’s business plan requires fewer, but higher performing, employees. They get paid accordingly.
    I have no idea how Costco makes things work. I do know that corporations, including Costco, have to meet their bottom line, or their share value drops, and they die.
    We can complain that people aren’t nice, or we can insist that they meet minimum standards through laws and regulations, which put corporations on an even playing field. Public policy isn’t about private kindness. We should all be kind, of course, but we should insist on standards from amoral, “for profit” entities.

  120. Costco’s business plan requires fewer, but higher performing, employees. They get paid accordingly.
    I have no idea how Costco makes things work. I do know that corporations, including Costco, have to meet their bottom line, or their share value drops, and they die.
    We can complain that people aren’t nice, or we can insist that they meet minimum standards through laws and regulations, which put corporations on an even playing field. Public policy isn’t about private kindness. We should all be kind, of course, but we should insist on standards from amoral, “for profit” entities.

  121. Also, consumers shouldn’t have to bear the burden of assessing morality into their choices (although, it’s nice if they do, of course). As an example of how I try to shop with my conscience: I eat a lot of fish. I buy it at two places, the local fish guy (who may or may not observe “sustainable” fishing) or at Whole Foods, which markets itself as observing sustainable fishing. After having done some research, Whole Foods seems to be legit. Also, Whole Foods seems to give a flying f’ about humane treatment of animals.
    So “Whole Paycheck” has some other issues, including anti-unionism (although employees are paid well).
    At a certain point, it stops being my problem. I do the best I can with the information I’m willing to collect, and do some shopping at the farmers’ market, and grow food, etc.
    But that’s why we have laws. Because very few people have the “privilege” of figuring all of this out.

  122. Also, consumers shouldn’t have to bear the burden of assessing morality into their choices (although, it’s nice if they do, of course). As an example of how I try to shop with my conscience: I eat a lot of fish. I buy it at two places, the local fish guy (who may or may not observe “sustainable” fishing) or at Whole Foods, which markets itself as observing sustainable fishing. After having done some research, Whole Foods seems to be legit. Also, Whole Foods seems to give a flying f’ about humane treatment of animals.
    So “Whole Paycheck” has some other issues, including anti-unionism (although employees are paid well).
    At a certain point, it stops being my problem. I do the best I can with the information I’m willing to collect, and do some shopping at the farmers’ market, and grow food, etc.
    But that’s why we have laws. Because very few people have the “privilege” of figuring all of this out.

  123. It’s unrealistic because of the way “for profit,” “public” corporations are set up to work for shareholders.
    the way they are set up is not a function of some inviolable natural. it is a function of choices made by us, as a society and a culture.

  124. It’s unrealistic because of the way “for profit,” “public” corporations are set up to work for shareholders.
    the way they are set up is not a function of some inviolable natural. it is a function of choices made by us, as a society and a culture.

  127. the way they are set up is not a function of some inviolable natural. it is a function of choices made by us, as a society and a culture.
    Yes. Those choices actually manifest themselves as laws. That’s the way it all happens. It’s silly to expect corporations, set up by our own laws to be profit making entities, to be charitable institutions. Our laws can specify otherwise if that’s what we want.

  128. the way they are set up is not a function of some inviolable natural. it is a function of choices made by us, as a society and a culture.
    Yes. Those choices actually manifest themselves as laws. That’s the way it all happens. It’s silly to expect corporations, set up by our own laws to be profit making entities, to be charitable institutions. Our laws can specify otherwise if that’s what we want.

  131. By the way, corporation laws are mostly state laws. Labor laws tend to be federal, but state laws are important too. Laws are way more effective than boycotts or wishful thinking.

  132. By the way, corporation laws are mostly state laws. Labor laws tend to be federal, but state laws are important too. Laws are way more effective than boycotts or wishful thinking.

  139. We just had some 75 people burn to death in a tower block – apparently everything was according to fire regulations and completely lawful. Tough luck, I guess.

  140. We just had some 75 people burn to death in a tower block – apparently everything was according to fire regulations and completely lawful. Tough luck, I guess.

  141. Well novakant, then we need better laws, as sapient is saying. The use of cheaper, flammable cladding (which seems to have been put on here in the latest refurbishment) should be outlawed.

  142. Well novakant, then we need better laws, as sapient is saying. The use of cheaper, flammable cladding (which seems to have been put on here in the latest refurbishment) should be outlawed.

  143. As I have said after 9/11, all buildings exceeding a certain height should be required to be twin structured with several connections between both parts (secured against fire jumping to the other side), so the risk of being trapped above a fire or another noxious event would be minimized.

  144. As I have said after 9/11, all buildings exceeding a certain height should be required to be twin structured with several connections between both parts (secured against fire jumping to the other side), so the risk of being trapped above a fire or another noxious event would be minimized.

  145. “all buildings exceeding a certain height should be required to be twin structured with several connections between both parts”
    You can’t fool us, Hartmut, I see what you’re doing.
    You want tall buildings to look like this:
    H
    H
    H
    The ‘safety’ excuses are just a cover for the massive ego massage, amirite?

  146. “all buildings exceeding a certain height should be required to be twin structured with several connections between both parts”
    You can’t fool us, Hartmut, I see what you’re doing.
    You want tall buildings to look like this:
    H
    H
    H
    The ‘safety’ excuses are just a cover for the massive ego massage, amirite?

  151. In German the stack of H would read like laughter.
    As for applying one’s ego to landscape, it would be difficult to beat Victor Hugo who, at least in his book set there*, shaped a whole Channel Island according to his initials and took care of the proper illustrations too.
    *The Toilers of the Sea

  152. In German the stack of H would read like laughter.
    As for applying one’s ego to landscape, it would be difficult to beat Victor Hugo who, at least in his book set there*, shaped a whole Channel Island according to his initials and took care of the proper illustrations too.
    *The Toilers of the Sea

  153. Nigel, we’ll talk again when we have people convicted and thrown in jail.
    But if it is the case that laws have been broken, then that makes my point against a legalistic view even stronger.

  154. Nigel, we’ll talk again when we have people convicted and thrown in jail.
    But if it is the case that laws have been broken, then that makes my point against a legalistic view even stronger.

  157. maybe not treating people like sh!t would be a good start and exposing those who do instead of making excuses for them – if nobody cares there won’t be any new laws to rectify injustice and the laws are only as strong as the will and capabilities to enforce them

  158. maybe not treating people like sh!t would be a good start and exposing those who do instead of making excuses for them – if nobody cares there won’t be any new laws to rectify injustice and the laws are only as strong as the will and capabilities to enforce them

  159. They should change their name to The March of Billionaires and Automatic AR-15s and then I would bet we would have a whole new baseball game/shooting match with pigfucker McConnell:
    http://shareblue.com/mitch-mcconnell-refuses-to-meet-with-the-march-of-dimes-on-the-gop-health-care-bill/
    I think the secrecy is locked down so hard because these conservative republican murderers are trying to figure out how to fit the entire HCFSANOWHOCGFTSA “Healthcare For Some Americans Not Others WHO Can Go Fuck Themselves Act) are trying to water the text of the bill down to where dumbass, illiterate conservatives who burn buildings to the ground on account of the fact that it’s cheaper than interfering in the free market can read the thing in one sitting, unlike its predecessor.
    Batter up, motherfuckers.

  160. They should change their name to The March of Billionaires and Automatic AR-15s and then I would bet we would have a whole new baseball game/shooting match with pigfucker McConnell:
    http://shareblue.com/mitch-mcconnell-refuses-to-meet-with-the-march-of-dimes-on-the-gop-health-care-bill/
    I think the secrecy is locked down so hard because these conservative republican murderers are trying to figure out how to fit the entire HCFSANOWHOCGFTSA “Healthcare For Some Americans Not Others WHO Can Go Fuck Themselves Act) are trying to water the text of the bill down to where dumbass, illiterate conservatives who burn buildings to the ground on account of the fact that it’s cheaper than interfering in the free market can read the thing in one sitting, unlike its predecessor.
    Batter up, motherfuckers.

  161. http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/06/the-mad-king-is-not-amused-by.html
    I understand Wayne LaPierre, several Putin deputies, and Ann Coulter are pretty high up on trump’s succession list for that place misnamed the Justice Department.
    I repeat my prediction that no matter how trump is removed by legal means, he (along with his loyalists) will have to be rousted out of Mar-A-Lago feet first on gurnies by a squad of Navy Seals, who themselves, given some of their misbegotten talkshow republican loyalties, may turn against the rule of law and join the trump siege and have to be bin Ladened out of the joint by killers.
    I’m thinking the cladding at Mar-a-Lago is not particularly flammable so burning them out of there will not be an option.

  162. http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/06/the-mad-king-is-not-amused-by.html
    I understand Wayne LaPierre, several Putin deputies, and Ann Coulter are pretty high up on trump’s succession list for that place misnamed the Justice Department.
    I repeat my prediction that no matter how trump is removed by legal means, he (along with his loyalists) will have to be rousted out of Mar-A-Lago feet first on gurnies by a squad of Navy Seals, who themselves, given some of their misbegotten talkshow republican loyalties, may turn against the rule of law and join the trump siege and have to be bin Ladened out of the joint by killers.
    I’m thinking the cladding at Mar-a-Lago is not particularly flammable so burning them out of there will not be an option.

  169. Count, don’t you think it more likely that Trump would be persuaded to go for a “Short, victorious war”? Just a little something to distract….
    Wouldn’t, after all, want to irritate his best bro’ Putin.

  170. Count, don’t you think it more likely that Trump would be persuaded to go for a “Short, victorious war”? Just a little something to distract….
    Wouldn’t, after all, want to irritate his best bro’ Putin.

  175. Wait, what?
    We better stay on good terms with our Indian friends. Their pilots are apparently damned good.

  176. Wait, what?
    We better stay on good terms with our Indian friends. Their pilots are apparently damned good.

  177. No doubt all those Trump fans in Texas are celebrating the closure of the Lockheed plant in Ft Worth. After all, he gets credit for all the economic stuff that happens, right…?

  178. No doubt all those Trump fans in Texas are celebrating the closure of the Lockheed plant in Ft Worth. After all, he gets credit for all the economic stuff that happens, right…?

  181. “ecstatic”.
    But I think trumpsters spell it “esctatic” because some overpaid elite school gummint marm with summers off tried to correct them once and they’ve never gotten over the constitutional right to misspell and still be taken seriously.

  182. “ecstatic”.
    But I think trumpsters spell it “esctatic” because some overpaid elite school gummint marm with summers off tried to correct them once and they’ve never gotten over the constitutional right to misspell and still be taken seriously.

  187. GOP strategist: Every time a republican is gunned down, we win an election.
    GOP candidate: How can I get a piece of this?
    Kelly Ann Conmanalltheway: Yes, but there are hardly any liberal Democrat assassins out there, in fact, the only one they had is dead.
    Strategist: Well, then clearly, we need to start killing each other, as loyal republicans.
    Candidate: I’ll forget to duck and I’ll be in in like Flynn.
    Conmanalltheway: Don’t say Flynn.

  188. GOP strategist: Every time a republican is gunned down, we win an election.
    GOP candidate: How can I get a piece of this?
    Kelly Ann Conmanalltheway: Yes, but there are hardly any liberal Democrat assassins out there, in fact, the only one they had is dead.
    Strategist: Well, then clearly, we need to start killing each other, as loyal republicans.
    Candidate: I’ll forget to duck and I’ll be in in like Flynn.
    Conmanalltheway: Don’t say Flynn.

  197. Count, my wife informs me the speculation is that prohibiting recording of the White House press briefing is to prevent Donald from hearing it.
    Sounds right to me.

  198. Count, my wife informs me the speculation is that prohibiting recording of the White House press briefing is to prevent Donald from hearing it.
    Sounds right to me.

  199. Certainly makes as much sense as any other explanation I can think of. Especially given the stories that have come out on how desperate the staff seems to be to find a way to manage their unmanageable boss.

  200. Certainly makes as much sense as any other explanation I can think of. Especially given the stories that have come out on how desperate the staff seems to be to find a way to manage their unmanageable boss.

  201. HAVING A LEADER WHOSE STAFF HAS TO PROTECT HIM FROM BAD NEWS BECAUSE HE IS AN ILL TEMPERED CHILD IS NOT GOOD.
    That is all for today.

  202. HAVING A LEADER WHOSE STAFF HAS TO PROTECT HIM FROM BAD NEWS BECAUSE HE IS AN ILL TEMPERED CHILD IS NOT GOOD.
    That is all for today.

  205. maybe not treating people like sh!t would be a good start and exposing those who do instead of making excuses for them – if nobody cares there won’t be any new laws to rectify injustice and the laws are only as strong as the will and capabilities to enforce them
    That’s funny. As I recall, novakant was encouraging not voting for Hillary Clinton (“the hawk,” haw haw), and people who listened to him now face the probability that millions of people will die without the ACA, but also without a longstanding safety net program, Medicaid.
    Granted, novakant has little clue, but (like Trump) because of that, I don’t think I’m going to listen to his/her lectures on “treating people like sh!t”. (Oh, right – novakant is advocating private generosity and voting with your feet, and doesn’t give a flying f’ about what happens to people whose lives have been secure under the law of the USA. Apparently doesn’t trust his own system to provide work protections for people either.)

  206. maybe not treating people like sh!t would be a good start and exposing those who do instead of making excuses for them – if nobody cares there won’t be any new laws to rectify injustice and the laws are only as strong as the will and capabilities to enforce them
    That’s funny. As I recall, novakant was encouraging not voting for Hillary Clinton (“the hawk,” haw haw), and people who listened to him now face the probability that millions of people will die without the ACA, but also without a longstanding safety net program, Medicaid.
    Granted, novakant has little clue, but (like Trump) because of that, I don’t think I’m going to listen to his/her lectures on “treating people like sh!t”. (Oh, right – novakant is advocating private generosity and voting with your feet, and doesn’t give a flying f’ about what happens to people whose lives have been secure under the law of the USA. Apparently doesn’t trust his own system to provide work protections for people either.)

  207. It may look like mob in this particular narrow instance. But a mob boss who “functioned” like this would be toast pretty quick. His own people would find a way to get him out of the way.
    Not that I see any signs (yet) that Trump’s own people (i.e. Republicans, specifically in Congress) are looking to do so. But then, it appears that it takes more balls to be a mobster than a Congressman.

  208. It may look like mob in this particular narrow instance. But a mob boss who “functioned” like this would be toast pretty quick. His own people would find a way to get him out of the way.
    Not that I see any signs (yet) that Trump’s own people (i.e. Republicans, specifically in Congress) are looking to do so. But then, it appears that it takes more balls to be a mobster than a Congressman.

  213. Count, my wife informs me the speculation is that prohibiting recording of the White House press briefing is to prevent Donald from hearing it.
    I’m imagining Spicer doing the briefing while holding up a little sign that says “somebody please get me outta here”.

  214. Count, my wife informs me the speculation is that prohibiting recording of the White House press briefing is to prevent Donald from hearing it.
    I’m imagining Spicer doing the briefing while holding up a little sign that says “somebody please get me outta here”.

  215. OK, wj and others: will you allow every discussion to be framed through sapient’s paranoid rantings chastising people for their lack of love for Clinton? Donald and NV have already left because of sapient and I’m about to, so you have to make a call here.

  216. OK, wj and others: will you allow every discussion to be framed through sapient’s paranoid rantings chastising people for their lack of love for Clinton? Donald and NV have already left because of sapient and I’m about to, so you have to make a call here.

  221. Actually, I think NV left because of cleek, but although I thought her viewpoint valuable, I value cleek far more, he seems to me woven into the warp and weft of the place in important ways. novakant, I too hope you stick around, but que sera, up to you.

  222. Actually, I think NV left because of cleek, but although I thought her viewpoint valuable, I value cleek far more, he seems to me woven into the warp and weft of the place in important ways. novakant, I too hope you stick around, but que sera, up to you.

  223. for the record, i wish NV would come back and that we could find a way to co-exist.

  224. for the record, i wish NV would come back and that we could find a way to co-exist.

  233. if you care enough about this stuff to bother participating on a political blog, it’s likely that you have strong feelings about a lot of the stuff we talk about.
    it’s best if we can not personalize things, either in the things we say to each other, or in how we receive what others say. but, that can be a big ask.
    i hope all of the folks mentioned above find their way back, because i think we all enjoy their company and appreciate what they have to say.
    and, i hope anyone whose on board at the moment, but feels the need to step away, won’t be away too long.
    sometimes it’s hard to be agreeable, but i bet we can do a better job of it if we try.
    Re: the Alex Jones stuff in the count’s link – what the heck is a “beta”?

  234. if you care enough about this stuff to bother participating on a political blog, it’s likely that you have strong feelings about a lot of the stuff we talk about.
    it’s best if we can not personalize things, either in the things we say to each other, or in how we receive what others say. but, that can be a big ask.
    i hope all of the folks mentioned above find their way back, because i think we all enjoy their company and appreciate what they have to say.
    and, i hope anyone whose on board at the moment, but feels the need to step away, won’t be away too long.
    sometimes it’s hard to be agreeable, but i bet we can do a better job of it if we try.
    Re: the Alex Jones stuff in the count’s link – what the heck is a “beta”?

  235. I have a subscription to a daily summary of the news done by the Economist. Today, they get the prize for a really great headline:
    Voting their Ossoff: Georgia’s election
    (I confess to a perverse taste for the occasional bad pun.)

  236. I have a subscription to a daily summary of the news done by the Economist. Today, they get the prize for a really great headline:
    Voting their Ossoff: Georgia’s election
    (I confess to a perverse taste for the occasional bad pun.)

  239. what the heck is a “beta”?
    there’s the alpha male, and then there’s the beta cuck[old].
    and now you know all there is to know about alt-right masculinity theory.

  240. what the heck is a “beta”?
    there’s the alpha male, and then there’s the beta cuck[old].
    and now you know all there is to know about alt-right masculinity theory.

  245. Russell,
    ‘betas’ are similar to your classic “nerds” but worse. Way worse. Not only are they weak passive unmanly wimps, they RUN EVERYTHING!!!
    How did those wimps pull that off over the manly, manly, men?
    Somebody needs to ask Alex Jones.

  246. Russell,
    ‘betas’ are similar to your classic “nerds” but worse. Way worse. Not only are they weak passive unmanly wimps, they RUN EVERYTHING!!!
    How did those wimps pull that off over the manly, manly, men?
    Somebody needs to ask Alex Jones.

  247. Yes, I agree, I wish NV and Donald would come back, and that we could generally cut down the personally unpleasant stuff (in all fairness, they- especially NV – indulged in plenty of that themselves). It’s also possible McKinney has scrammed, he ended his last somewhat huffy post “Adios”, so we’ll have to see. The only person I don’t miss is Brett (I wasn’t commenting then, but his record of derailing threads was really remarkable). I think it’s been so remarkable to have this kind of spread of opinion from left to right, a really valuable thing.

  248. Yes, I agree, I wish NV and Donald would come back, and that we could generally cut down the personally unpleasant stuff (in all fairness, they- especially NV – indulged in plenty of that themselves). It’s also possible McKinney has scrammed, he ended his last somewhat huffy post “Adios”, so we’ll have to see. The only person I don’t miss is Brett (I wasn’t commenting then, but his record of derailing threads was really remarkable). I think it’s been so remarkable to have this kind of spread of opinion from left to right, a really valuable thing.

  251. Ah, moderation! The key to wisdom and longevity, according to the lamas of Shangri-La:

    “If I were to put it into a very few words, my dear sir, I should say that our prevalent belief is in moderation. We inculcate the virtue of avoiding excess of all kinds – even including, if you will pardon the paradox, excess of virtue itself. …. We rule with moderate strictness, and in return are satisfied with moderate obedience. And I think I can claim that our people are moderately sober, moderately chaste and moderately honest. …. I can add that our community has various faiths and usages, but we are moderately heretical about them” (James Hilton, Lost Horizon, 1934).

    The notion of moderation even in moderation has always appealed to me. And I suppose I find ObWi congenial because it is very moderately “moderated”.
    Still, I have to say: you people must be way more sensitive than I am to insults and perceived insults. If Brett Bellmore got on my nerves almost constantly, it was because of his near-uniform wrongness. It never occured to me that Brett could be wrong about practically everything except in having a low opinion of me.
    –TP

  252. Ah, moderation! The key to wisdom and longevity, according to the lamas of Shangri-La:

    “If I were to put it into a very few words, my dear sir, I should say that our prevalent belief is in moderation. We inculcate the virtue of avoiding excess of all kinds – even including, if you will pardon the paradox, excess of virtue itself. …. We rule with moderate strictness, and in return are satisfied with moderate obedience. And I think I can claim that our people are moderately sober, moderately chaste and moderately honest. …. I can add that our community has various faiths and usages, but we are moderately heretical about them” (James Hilton, Lost Horizon, 1934).

    The notion of moderation even in moderation has always appealed to me. And I suppose I find ObWi congenial because it is very moderately “moderated”.
    Still, I have to say: you people must be way more sensitive than I am to insults and perceived insults. If Brett Bellmore got on my nerves almost constantly, it was because of his near-uniform wrongness. It never occured to me that Brett could be wrong about practically everything except in having a low opinion of me.
    –TP

  253. Yeah, TP, you just say that because you don’t think that the second amendment is moderate enough despite the founders clear intention to create a wall of resistance by arming a free militia.

  254. Yeah, TP, you just say that because you don’t think that the second amendment is moderate enough despite the founders clear intention to create a wall of resistance by arming a free militia.

  255. And you, Marty, appear to think that a free militia is the same as a bunch of unorganized (and, mostly, untrained) individuals with guns. Which is what current interpretations of the 2nd Amendment has given us.

  256. And you, Marty, appear to think that a free militia is the same as a bunch of unorganized (and, mostly, untrained) individuals with guns. Which is what current interpretations of the 2nd Amendment has given us.

  257. I find nothing objectionable about Sapient taking a ‘victory lap’ with anyone who somehow thought HRC was an equally negative option to DJT. There was a clear choice, and we are now living the difference. As Sapient implies, many people may not continue to live based on the actual clear difference between the two.
    I guess if someone acknowledged that HRC was clearly the better choice given what we know now and wishes she had won instead, maybe he could stop the victory lap.

  258. I find nothing objectionable about Sapient taking a ‘victory lap’ with anyone who somehow thought HRC was an equally negative option to DJT. There was a clear choice, and we are now living the difference. As Sapient implies, many people may not continue to live based on the actual clear difference between the two.
    I guess if someone acknowledged that HRC was clearly the better choice given what we know now and wishes she had won instead, maybe he could stop the victory lap.

  263. Marty,
    I cite: America.
    Most of America is woefully untrained on weapons. I have spent 30 years training with weapons, and even most of my peers are woefully untrained. You can tell by how many negligent discharges there are, and children shooting each other with someone’s unsecured weapon.
    I get you think it is a Constitutional right to shoot politicians you disagree with, but that does not make you trained.

  264. Marty,
    I cite: America.
    Most of America is woefully untrained on weapons. I have spent 30 years training with weapons, and even most of my peers are woefully untrained. You can tell by how many negligent discharges there are, and children shooting each other with someone’s unsecured weapon.
    I get you think it is a Constitutional right to shoot politicians you disagree with, but that does not make you trained.

  265. jrudkis, 360m people more guns than that, the incidental discharges are a miniscule fraction of gun owners. But it would be good to require more training on some weapons.

  266. jrudkis, 360m people more guns than that, the incidental discharges are a miniscule fraction of gun owners. But it would be good to require more training on some weapons.

  267. ‘360m people more guns that that,’
    Want to hang you hat on that? I have well over 100 weapons, that does not equate to 100 people having weapons.
    Incidental discharges is a weak term. The trigger only pulls on purpose, or by negligence.

  268. ‘360m people more guns that that,’
    Want to hang you hat on that? I have well over 100 weapons, that does not equate to 100 people having weapons.
    Incidental discharges is a weak term. The trigger only pulls on purpose, or by negligence.

  269. Ok, I am now officially stopping. I just brought up second amendment stuff because of the Brett conversation above.
    He was great at threadjacking everything into a 2nd amendment argument.
    So nevermind.

  270. Ok, I am now officially stopping. I just brought up second amendment stuff because of the Brett conversation above.
    He was great at threadjacking everything into a 2nd amendment argument.
    So nevermind.

  277. I forgot to ask earlier: can somebody point me to any ObWi comment thread that remained strictly “on topic” and was neither hijacked nor set adrift by about the 7th comment down?
    Face it: this is a water-cooler gab-fest among a bunch of regulars who have known each other’s opinions for years and who rejoice whenever a new voice pipes up, often to respond to an “off-topic” comment rather than to the initial post. Let’s not lament this state of affairs. Let us wallow in it.
    –TP

  278. I forgot to ask earlier: can somebody point me to any ObWi comment thread that remained strictly “on topic” and was neither hijacked nor set adrift by about the 7th comment down?
    Face it: this is a water-cooler gab-fest among a bunch of regulars who have known each other’s opinions for years and who rejoice whenever a new voice pipes up, often to respond to an “off-topic” comment rather than to the initial post. Let’s not lament this state of affairs. Let us wallow in it.
    –TP

  279. the founders clear intention to create a wall of resistance
    James Hodgkinson appreciates your support!

  280. the founders clear intention to create a wall of resistance
    James Hodgkinson appreciates your support!

  281. So, Marty, your 8.20 was an excellent, subtle, Brett-related joke! To quote a dearly beloved friend of mine, now a tremendously eminent academic, who when on an exchange teaching semester between his university and an Ivy league university in New England (no names, no pack drill) many years ago, asked his English Literature 101 class to write an essay on a literary classic of their choice. One of the essays was on The Turn of the Screw (which I confess I have not read). I gather there are two spinster ladies in the story, and the burden of the essay was that the subtext of the story is really that these two ladies are in a lesbian relationship. On which essay, my lovely, extremely English friend wrote “Is this a joke? If so, it’s a jolly good one!”, and gave it an A-. So, to Marty I say, If this was a joke, it’s a jolly good one!

  282. So, Marty, your 8.20 was an excellent, subtle, Brett-related joke! To quote a dearly beloved friend of mine, now a tremendously eminent academic, who when on an exchange teaching semester between his university and an Ivy league university in New England (no names, no pack drill) many years ago, asked his English Literature 101 class to write an essay on a literary classic of their choice. One of the essays was on The Turn of the Screw (which I confess I have not read). I gather there are two spinster ladies in the story, and the burden of the essay was that the subtext of the story is really that these two ladies are in a lesbian relationship. On which essay, my lovely, extremely English friend wrote “Is this a joke? If so, it’s a jolly good one!”, and gave it an A-. So, to Marty I say, If this was a joke, it’s a jolly good one!

  291. What think others?
    I think all politics are identity politics.
    Liberals tend to advocate more than conservatives do for the interests of people who aren’t white, straight, and generally male.
    Conservatives tend to advocate more than liberals do in the other direction.
    Everybody sucks up to money, because money, but liberal and conservative camps have their specializations in that arena as well.
    IMO what’s happening now is that the pie is getting smaller, see also my comment about everybody sucking up to money, so the folks who used to be able to assume they’d have a place at the table can’t make that assumption any more.
    So they’re reacting to that.
    Anyone who thinks that it’s weird to worry about whether trans people can use the bathroom, but it’s not weird to worry about whether somebody has to bake a cake for a gay couple, is simply blind to the particular brand of identity politics they subscribe to.
    It’s all identity politics. It’s just that some folks think their identity is better than others.

  292. What think others?
    I think all politics are identity politics.
    Liberals tend to advocate more than conservatives do for the interests of people who aren’t white, straight, and generally male.
    Conservatives tend to advocate more than liberals do in the other direction.
    Everybody sucks up to money, because money, but liberal and conservative camps have their specializations in that arena as well.
    IMO what’s happening now is that the pie is getting smaller, see also my comment about everybody sucking up to money, so the folks who used to be able to assume they’d have a place at the table can’t make that assumption any more.
    So they’re reacting to that.
    Anyone who thinks that it’s weird to worry about whether trans people can use the bathroom, but it’s not weird to worry about whether somebody has to bake a cake for a gay couple, is simply blind to the particular brand of identity politics they subscribe to.
    It’s all identity politics. It’s just that some folks think their identity is better than others.

  293. Anyone who thinks it’s weird to worry about whether black folks get shot too much, but not weird to worry about whether a guy can let his cows loose on public land, is blind to their own identity affiliation.
    Anyone who worries about what those crazy liberal college kids are up to, but doesn’t worry about the f’ing neo-Nazis who have decided it’s time to crawl out from under their rock, is blind to their own identity affiliation.
    I could do this all day. You get the point.

  294. Anyone who thinks it’s weird to worry about whether black folks get shot too much, but not weird to worry about whether a guy can let his cows loose on public land, is blind to their own identity affiliation.
    Anyone who worries about what those crazy liberal college kids are up to, but doesn’t worry about the f’ing neo-Nazis who have decided it’s time to crawl out from under their rock, is blind to their own identity affiliation.
    I could do this all day. You get the point.

  295. Sometimes I think I might just abdicate responsibility for my opinions, and just subscribe to whatever russell’s opinions are, they are always so clear and decent. And by decent, I mean humane and reasonable. For some reason, this makes me think of the ruler of the universe, in the hitchhiker’s guide to the galaxy, see excerpt below. Not that russell’s and the ROTU’s attitudes are the same, but still. I think we could do a lot worse than elect russell as the ROTU:
    http://www.thedailyzen.org/2015/05/27/the-ruler-of-the-universe/
    So that’s by way of preface, not to suck up or blow smoke up russell’s ass (a marvellous and incomprehensible Americanism for sucking up, the derivation of which I do not know for sure, but which seems to be connected to this old medical practice:
    http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/05/origin-expression-blow-smoke-ass/).
    In other words, I find russell’s two comments above impossible to disagree with, but what I am curious about is whether russell, given his comments, finds anything at all to agree with, or at least to be persuasive, in the NYT piece, and in particular its hints as to a way forward for liberals in future electoral contests? And, of course, anybody else’s opinions on same?

  296. Sometimes I think I might just abdicate responsibility for my opinions, and just subscribe to whatever russell’s opinions are, they are always so clear and decent. And by decent, I mean humane and reasonable. For some reason, this makes me think of the ruler of the universe, in the hitchhiker’s guide to the galaxy, see excerpt below. Not that russell’s and the ROTU’s attitudes are the same, but still. I think we could do a lot worse than elect russell as the ROTU:
    http://www.thedailyzen.org/2015/05/27/the-ruler-of-the-universe/
    So that’s by way of preface, not to suck up or blow smoke up russell’s ass (a marvellous and incomprehensible Americanism for sucking up, the derivation of which I do not know for sure, but which seems to be connected to this old medical practice:
    http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/05/origin-expression-blow-smoke-ass/).
    In other words, I find russell’s two comments above impossible to disagree with, but what I am curious about is whether russell, given his comments, finds anything at all to agree with, or at least to be persuasive, in the NYT piece, and in particular its hints as to a way forward for liberals in future electoral contests? And, of course, anybody else’s opinions on same?

  297. The Lilla piece is all too glib and self-satisfied. I had a page-long diatribe going in response, but I’m supposed to be working, so instead of all that other verbiage I’m just going to say what works every single time:
    WRS.

  298. The Lilla piece is all too glib and self-satisfied. I had a page-long diatribe going in response, but I’m supposed to be working, so instead of all that other verbiage I’m just going to say what works every single time:
    WRS.

  299. GftNC, my comment was written before I saw yours, so it’s not a direct response. I will try to answer your questions later from my own POV.

  300. GftNC, my comment was written before I saw yours, so it’s not a direct response. I will try to answer your questions later from my own POV.

  305. my first opinion of that Lilla piece was: whining about college kids for not being quite up to speed with how society works is lazy. and whining that today’s left isn’t Roosevelt’s left is nuts.
    as far as “appealing to Americans as Americans” … Trump didn’t do that – he set white Americans against black, Hispanic and Muslim Americans. and then he set them against everyone else in the world. he didn’t even try to be inclusive. Clinton noticed that Americans aren’t homogeneous and pointed it out and as a result, she got the votes of all those non-white Americans.
    and of course we got Trump because of the EC, not because Americans love that dumb old racist bankruptcy-addict with creepy sexual ideas about girls (including his own daughter). the EC failed the country twice in the last 16 years. voters in the vast emptiness of WY count several times more than voters in CA. these are problems with the rules of our elections, not with the Democrats’ platform.
    Clinton got significantly more votes that Trump. in Congress, the Dems received more votes as a percentage of total than percentage of seats (gerrymandering). the Dems gained Senate seats, and won the Senate popular vote too.
    the Democratic Party’s problem is not that voters don’t like the Democratic party, they do like it. over and over, vote totals tell us that. the Dems’ problem is that our elections do not reflect what voters like. our elections distort the electorate to weigh certain people more heavily than others: some of this is baked into the ludicrous EC; some of it is intentional gerrymandering by the GOP.
    but Lilla, as in every post-mortem i’ve seen so far, thinks the Dems’ problems are that they don’t conform to his own personal politics.
    /harrumph
    that said, it does kindof look like pandering to see politicians drop in on this or that minority, drop some lingo, then motor off to the next.

  306. my first opinion of that Lilla piece was: whining about college kids for not being quite up to speed with how society works is lazy. and whining that today’s left isn’t Roosevelt’s left is nuts.
    as far as “appealing to Americans as Americans” … Trump didn’t do that – he set white Americans against black, Hispanic and Muslim Americans. and then he set them against everyone else in the world. he didn’t even try to be inclusive. Clinton noticed that Americans aren’t homogeneous and pointed it out and as a result, she got the votes of all those non-white Americans.
    and of course we got Trump because of the EC, not because Americans love that dumb old racist bankruptcy-addict with creepy sexual ideas about girls (including his own daughter). the EC failed the country twice in the last 16 years. voters in the vast emptiness of WY count several times more than voters in CA. these are problems with the rules of our elections, not with the Democrats’ platform.
    Clinton got significantly more votes that Trump. in Congress, the Dems received more votes as a percentage of total than percentage of seats (gerrymandering). the Dems gained Senate seats, and won the Senate popular vote too.
    the Democratic Party’s problem is not that voters don’t like the Democratic party, they do like it. over and over, vote totals tell us that. the Dems’ problem is that our elections do not reflect what voters like. our elections distort the electorate to weigh certain people more heavily than others: some of this is baked into the ludicrous EC; some of it is intentional gerrymandering by the GOP.
    but Lilla, as in every post-mortem i’ve seen so far, thinks the Dems’ problems are that they don’t conform to his own personal politics.
    /harrumph
    that said, it does kindof look like pandering to see politicians drop in on this or that minority, drop some lingo, then motor off to the next.

  307. 209. “Dig a Pony”
    204. “She’s Leaving Home”
    vs
    114. “Revolution 9”
    madness.

  308. 209. “Dig a Pony”
    204. “She’s Leaving Home”
    vs
    114. “Revolution 9”
    madness.

  309. Typical liberal response, wj, just assumes that people are “mostly” untrained. Cite?
    No cite. Just a conservative with some first hand observations. Plus watching a lot of self-styled militiamen, and seeing them handling their weapons in a manner that is beyond casual. I would expect anyone with even minimal training in firearms safety to know better.

  310. Typical liberal response, wj, just assumes that people are “mostly” untrained. Cite?
    No cite. Just a conservative with some first hand observations. Plus watching a lot of self-styled militiamen, and seeing them handling their weapons in a manner that is beyond casual. I would expect anyone with even minimal training in firearms safety to know better.

  311. JanieM, I will be very interested in your opinion, as always.

    209. “Dig a Pony”
    204. “She’s Leaving Home”
    vs
    114. “Revolution 9”
    madness.

    I completely agree with this.

  312. JanieM, I will be very interested in your opinion, as always.

    209. “Dig a Pony”
    204. “She’s Leaving Home”
    vs
    114. “Revolution 9”
    madness.

    I completely agree with this.

  313. Cite?
    DOJ survey from 1997 says:

    Slightly more than half of firearms of
    either type were stored unlocked, but
    handguns were much more likely to be
    loaded. Reflecting their predominant
    use in self-defense, handguns were
    likely to be stored in bedrooms or vehicles
    of owners or even on their person,
    while most long guns were kept in
    gun closets or other out-of-the-way
    places (exhibit 6).
    Although training programs usually include
    suggestions on how to store guns
    safely, it does not appear that trainees
    are paying attention. More than half
    (56 percent) of owners had received
    some form of “formal” training from
    the military, law enforcement, National
    Rifle Association, National Safety
    Council, or other source. As a group,
    owners who received such training
    were no less likely than others to keep
    guns loaded and unlocked. This surprising
    result is consistent with other
    recent studies.
    However, a more detailed analysis of
    NSPOF data that examined the effects
    of different formal training programs
    separately indicated one exception:
    training programs such as those offered
    by local affiliates of the National
    Safety Council were associated with a
    significant reduction in the likelihood
    of keeping a gun unlocked and loaded.
    This result speaks well of that training,
    the trainees, or both.

  314. Cite?
    DOJ survey from 1997 says:

    Slightly more than half of firearms of
    either type were stored unlocked, but
    handguns were much more likely to be
    loaded. Reflecting their predominant
    use in self-defense, handguns were
    likely to be stored in bedrooms or vehicles
    of owners or even on their person,
    while most long guns were kept in
    gun closets or other out-of-the-way
    places (exhibit 6).
    Although training programs usually include
    suggestions on how to store guns
    safely, it does not appear that trainees
    are paying attention. More than half
    (56 percent) of owners had received
    some form of “formal” training from
    the military, law enforcement, National
    Rifle Association, National Safety
    Council, or other source. As a group,
    owners who received such training
    were no less likely than others to keep
    guns loaded and unlocked. This surprising
    result is consistent with other
    recent studies.
    However, a more detailed analysis of
    NSPOF data that examined the effects
    of different formal training programs
    separately indicated one exception:
    training programs such as those offered
    by local affiliates of the National
    Safety Council were associated with a
    significant reduction in the likelihood
    of keeping a gun unlocked and loaded.
    This result speaks well of that training,
    the trainees, or both.

  317. what I am curious about is whether russell, given his comments, finds anything at all to agree with, or at least to be persuasive, in the NYT piece
    I’ve probably read the Lilla piece 10 times since it was written. Here is what I think.
    IMO one of the most significant American political narratives, and most pressing issues, over the last 40 years is the degree to which every aspect of life has come to be dominated by the interests of investment capital. Full stop.
    The (D)’s used to be pretty good on that issue, by which I mean they used to offer a reliable counter to that tendency. With some notable exceptions, they no longer do. The rhetoric is still there, mostly, but the teeth are not.
    So, I sort of find common ground with Lilla there.
    An equally important American political narrative, and one that extends back to the very origins of the nation if not beyond, is our agonizingly slow progress from being a society based on a common belief in straight white male supremacy, to one in which other folks get a seat at the table.
    Furthering that progress used to be a pretty bi-partisan agenda, and in fact historical the (R)’s probably have a better record than the (D)’s. They basically handed that mantle to the (D)’s in the mid-20th C as part of the famous “southern strategy”. Bigots vote, the (R)’s saw an opportunity, and took it.
    Lilla seems to think it’s time for the (D)’s to do likewise.
    IMO Lilla can piss up a rope.
    And that’s everything I think about it.
    I like the ruler of the universe, he actually seems to be Samuel Beckett. I appreciate the kind words, but it is not a gig I have the chops for.
    Trust me, I doubt you would enjoy russell as ROTU for more than about three minutes.
    I do, sincerely, thank you for the kind thoughts.

  318. what I am curious about is whether russell, given his comments, finds anything at all to agree with, or at least to be persuasive, in the NYT piece
    I’ve probably read the Lilla piece 10 times since it was written. Here is what I think.
    IMO one of the most significant American political narratives, and most pressing issues, over the last 40 years is the degree to which every aspect of life has come to be dominated by the interests of investment capital. Full stop.
    The (D)’s used to be pretty good on that issue, by which I mean they used to offer a reliable counter to that tendency. With some notable exceptions, they no longer do. The rhetoric is still there, mostly, but the teeth are not.
    So, I sort of find common ground with Lilla there.
    An equally important American political narrative, and one that extends back to the very origins of the nation if not beyond, is our agonizingly slow progress from being a society based on a common belief in straight white male supremacy, to one in which other folks get a seat at the table.
    Furthering that progress used to be a pretty bi-partisan agenda, and in fact historical the (R)’s probably have a better record than the (D)’s. They basically handed that mantle to the (D)’s in the mid-20th C as part of the famous “southern strategy”. Bigots vote, the (R)’s saw an opportunity, and took it.
    Lilla seems to think it’s time for the (D)’s to do likewise.
    IMO Lilla can piss up a rope.
    And that’s everything I think about it.
    I like the ruler of the universe, he actually seems to be Samuel Beckett. I appreciate the kind words, but it is not a gig I have the chops for.
    Trust me, I doubt you would enjoy russell as ROTU for more than about three minutes.
    I do, sincerely, thank you for the kind thoughts.

  321. guns:
    if I were ROTU, if you carried your firearm in public and handled it in any way that did not comply with the NRA rules for gun safety, you would no longer be allowed to carry your firearm in public.
    If you want to shoot up your own house, live it up. go with god. If the bullets exit your premises, you go to jail, and are never allowed to own a firearm again.
    that, plus a ten round limit on automatic magazines, and I’m all good on the guns topic.
    not much to ask, I’d think. opinions vary, apparently.
    Beatles:
    choosing “best” Beatles songs is like trying to choose the most beautiful blossom in a 100 acre field of wildflowers.
    just enjoy the beauty.

  322. guns:
    if I were ROTU, if you carried your firearm in public and handled it in any way that did not comply with the NRA rules for gun safety, you would no longer be allowed to carry your firearm in public.
    If you want to shoot up your own house, live it up. go with god. If the bullets exit your premises, you go to jail, and are never allowed to own a firearm again.
    that, plus a ten round limit on automatic magazines, and I’m all good on the guns topic.
    not much to ask, I’d think. opinions vary, apparently.
    Beatles:
    choosing “best” Beatles songs is like trying to choose the most beautiful blossom in a 100 acre field of wildflowers.
    just enjoy the beauty.

  323. If you want to shoot up your own house, live it up. go with god. If the bullets exit your premises, you go to jail, and are never allowed to own a firearm again.
    For once I’m going to quibble with russell. What if kids live there? What if *anyone* else lives there? What is our collective responsibility for each other in a case like that? (Rarely a question with an easy answer, IMO.)

  324. If you want to shoot up your own house, live it up. go with god. If the bullets exit your premises, you go to jail, and are never allowed to own a firearm again.
    For once I’m going to quibble with russell. What if kids live there? What if *anyone* else lives there? What is our collective responsibility for each other in a case like that? (Rarely a question with an easy answer, IMO.)

  325. Ah, I just saw cleek’s 11.35, with much of which I also agree. Nor do I wish the Dems to sup with the devil to win an election, no matter how long the spoon. I have only read the Lilla piece once, and that quickly, because the last 7 days have been a bit of a clusterfuck for various reasons, but although hungover with exhaustion today, I will have more leisure from tomorrow, so will read more attentively then and possibly change my somewhat more favourable impression, not to mention catch up on everything else that’s been happening in the world. Will also look at the actual listing of “best Beatles songs” if only for the craic!

  326. Ah, I just saw cleek’s 11.35, with much of which I also agree. Nor do I wish the Dems to sup with the devil to win an election, no matter how long the spoon. I have only read the Lilla piece once, and that quickly, because the last 7 days have been a bit of a clusterfuck for various reasons, but although hungover with exhaustion today, I will have more leisure from tomorrow, so will read more attentively then and possibly change my somewhat more favourable impression, not to mention catch up on everything else that’s been happening in the world. Will also look at the actual listing of “best Beatles songs” if only for the craic!

  327. An equally important American political narrative, and one that extends back to the very origins of the nation if not beyond, is our agonizingly slow progress from being a society based on a common belief in straight white male supremacy, to one in which other folks get a seat at the table.
    Well, the country is finally catching up to where libertarians were ~50 years ago. 🙂

  328. An equally important American political narrative, and one that extends back to the very origins of the nation if not beyond, is our agonizingly slow progress from being a society based on a common belief in straight white male supremacy, to one in which other folks get a seat at the table.
    Well, the country is finally catching up to where libertarians were ~50 years ago. 🙂

  329. I found the Lilla editorial to be quite offputting.
    Basically, Lilla asks that Democrats dump the actual work of building coalitions and doing politics, which is rather insane, because you know it is a political party.
    Telling the party to shut up, shut up, shut up about the priorities of vital elements of the Democratic Party coalition is simply a non-starter.
    And what cleek wrote @ 11:35 above.

  330. I found the Lilla editorial to be quite offputting.
    Basically, Lilla asks that Democrats dump the actual work of building coalitions and doing politics, which is rather insane, because you know it is a political party.
    Telling the party to shut up, shut up, shut up about the priorities of vital elements of the Democratic Party coalition is simply a non-starter.
    And what cleek wrote @ 11:35 above.

  331. Well, the country is finally catching up to where libertarians were ~50 years ago. 🙂
    Ludicrous. Libertarians are still not ‘caught up’ even now. And where were they 50 years ago? Why opposing the Civil Rights Act….that’s where they were.

  332. Well, the country is finally catching up to where libertarians were ~50 years ago. 🙂
    Ludicrous. Libertarians are still not ‘caught up’ even now. And where were they 50 years ago? Why opposing the Civil Rights Act….that’s where they were.

  333. Whether or not there is a viable libertarian solution to discrimination depends entirely on the existence of real world alternatives. If there are lots of options, the libertarian approach can be (or at least appear) workable. But when discrimination is pervasive, it just doesn’t work.
    In my experience, most libertarians will argue that either discrimination isn’t a problem, or at least not a problem for government, so long as it isn’t institutionalized. Or that the solution to institutional discrimination is persuading everyone (because naturally it would never do to force anyone) to withdraw the institutional support. The fact that such persuasion is notably unsuccessful in the real world appears to count for nothing.

  334. Whether or not there is a viable libertarian solution to discrimination depends entirely on the existence of real world alternatives. If there are lots of options, the libertarian approach can be (or at least appear) workable. But when discrimination is pervasive, it just doesn’t work.
    In my experience, most libertarians will argue that either discrimination isn’t a problem, or at least not a problem for government, so long as it isn’t institutionalized. Or that the solution to institutional discrimination is persuading everyone (because naturally it would never do to force anyone) to withdraw the institutional support. The fact that such persuasion is notably unsuccessful in the real world appears to count for nothing.

  335. The Libertarian Party, at its inception almost 50 years ago, advocated for gay rights, same-sex marriages. The party has always been against the various wars on sex, drugs, gambling and other non-victim crimes.
    The LP has also been a catchall for various kinds of nutcases that couldn’t find ideological homes elsewhere. Most libertarians are not members of the LP and don’t want to be.
    Why opposing the Civil Rights Act….that’s where they were.
    Which is consistent with libertarian principles of treating everyone as individuals, not shoehorning them into various kinds of collectives.
    Minorities have suffered more from government enforced discrimination; from the federal government, states’ Jim Crow laws, to white city regulations; than from white business owners, without the backing of governments, refusing to do business with them.
    However, some libertarians would agree that there initially needed to be some kind of pressure applied to private business to accommodate minorities. But they think that the country has progressed enough that government force is no longer needed.
    In universities, civil rights seem to privilege middle-class blacks over other groups including Asians.

  336. The Libertarian Party, at its inception almost 50 years ago, advocated for gay rights, same-sex marriages. The party has always been against the various wars on sex, drugs, gambling and other non-victim crimes.
    The LP has also been a catchall for various kinds of nutcases that couldn’t find ideological homes elsewhere. Most libertarians are not members of the LP and don’t want to be.
    Why opposing the Civil Rights Act….that’s where they were.
    Which is consistent with libertarian principles of treating everyone as individuals, not shoehorning them into various kinds of collectives.
    Minorities have suffered more from government enforced discrimination; from the federal government, states’ Jim Crow laws, to white city regulations; than from white business owners, without the backing of governments, refusing to do business with them.
    However, some libertarians would agree that there initially needed to be some kind of pressure applied to private business to accommodate minorities. But they think that the country has progressed enough that government force is no longer needed.
    In universities, civil rights seem to privilege middle-class blacks over other groups including Asians.

  337. Minorities have suffered more from government enforced discrimination….than from white business owners, without the backing of governments, refusing to do business with them.
    Really? Because we all know that governments are sui generis? This assertion is not only not backed up by any evidence, it is patently absurd on its face.
    However, some libertarians would agree that there initially needed to be some kind of pressure applied to private business to accommodate minorities.
    Some? How generous of them!
    But they think that the country has progressed enough that government force is no longer needed.
    Just like the Roberts Court! They can think what they want, but that doesn’t make them right. The evidence for ongoing racial discrimination is pervasive.

  338. Minorities have suffered more from government enforced discrimination….than from white business owners, without the backing of governments, refusing to do business with them.
    Really? Because we all know that governments are sui generis? This assertion is not only not backed up by any evidence, it is patently absurd on its face.
    However, some libertarians would agree that there initially needed to be some kind of pressure applied to private business to accommodate minorities.
    Some? How generous of them!
    But they think that the country has progressed enough that government force is no longer needed.
    Just like the Roberts Court! They can think what they want, but that doesn’t make them right. The evidence for ongoing racial discrimination is pervasive.

  339. What is our collective responsibility for each other in a case like that?
    I know what my answer is to that question. I’m just tired of arguing with people about it.
    Folks not infrequently handle their firearms in an irresponsible way. If we want to try to regulate that, they tell us they are going to kill us all.
    It’s hard for me to know how to make a remotely reasonable reply to that. So I’ve sort of stopped trying to figure it out.

  340. What is our collective responsibility for each other in a case like that?
    I know what my answer is to that question. I’m just tired of arguing with people about it.
    Folks not infrequently handle their firearms in an irresponsible way. If we want to try to regulate that, they tell us they are going to kill us all.
    It’s hard for me to know how to make a remotely reasonable reply to that. So I’ve sort of stopped trying to figure it out.

  343. In a huge victory today the Trump administration undid 7 regulations requiring documentation that systems meet Y2k preparedness requirements.
    This is what can be accomplished when the government is at a standstill otherwise.

  344. In a huge victory today the Trump administration undid 7 regulations requiring documentation that systems meet Y2k preparedness requirements.
    This is what can be accomplished when the government is at a standstill otherwise.

  345. Russell,
    I don’t have a clue as to how it feels to be, or to behave as, trans-gender. But I bet it’s a lot of fuss and bother to change gender, so I’m guessing people doing it on a whim are negligibly few. (As few as women seeking late-term abortions on a whim, I suspect.) It may be hopelessly, tribaly liberal to say so, but I assume that there’s something neuro-biologically real about the sense that “you” and your body are not the same gender — as real, though not as visible, as dark skin.
    “Conservatives” as a tribe disagree. They’d have us think that being a “Christian”, let alone a baker, is somehow in-born and immutable, and thus deserving of public sympathy and legal protection.
    If the “conservative” tribe were correct, I’d be more inclined to agree with the relevant paragraph of your 10:22AM comment.
    –TP

  346. Russell,
    I don’t have a clue as to how it feels to be, or to behave as, trans-gender. But I bet it’s a lot of fuss and bother to change gender, so I’m guessing people doing it on a whim are negligibly few. (As few as women seeking late-term abortions on a whim, I suspect.) It may be hopelessly, tribaly liberal to say so, but I assume that there’s something neuro-biologically real about the sense that “you” and your body are not the same gender — as real, though not as visible, as dark skin.
    “Conservatives” as a tribe disagree. They’d have us think that being a “Christian”, let alone a baker, is somehow in-born and immutable, and thus deserving of public sympathy and legal protection.
    If the “conservative” tribe were correct, I’d be more inclined to agree with the relevant paragraph of your 10:22AM comment.
    –TP

  347. “Liberals tend to advocate more than conservatives do for the interests of people who aren’t white, straight, and generally male.
    Conservatives tend to advocate more than liberals do in the other direction.”
    This is a fact. Because liberals never advocate for white males(straight ones anyway) it would have to be. Perhaps if liberals/Democrats did not dismiss all white males as having no problem worthy of concern, 30 mil might be enough to buy a congressional district.

  348. “Liberals tend to advocate more than conservatives do for the interests of people who aren’t white, straight, and generally male.
    Conservatives tend to advocate more than liberals do in the other direction.”
    This is a fact. Because liberals never advocate for white males(straight ones anyway) it would have to be. Perhaps if liberals/Democrats did not dismiss all white males as having no problem worthy of concern, 30 mil might be enough to buy a congressional district.

  349. russell: “Liberals tend to advocate more than….”
    Marty: “Because liberals never advocate for…”
    The construction of straw men is a sight to behold.
    Gosh, what do liberals stand for? Well, in a nutshell they stand for a somewhat activist federal government that implements policy goals desired by We The People such as good public schools, sound infrastructure, full employment, the reining in of private market excess, an effective social safety net, social and legal equality, public safety, etc., etc., and etc.
    These are things that, I believe, even straight white males, even a few of the saner Republican white males would see as desirable from a public policy perspective.
    As a straight white male myself, I fully concur with these policy goals, and the Democratic Party is, in my humble opinion, the best current fit as effective political entities go toward meeting my concerns.
    The “problem” of understanding “any problem worthy of concern” of white males is that I have yet to hear one. Are they discriminated against? No. Are they poorer than blacks, women or the LBGT community? No. Do they suffer disproportionately at the hands of our justice system? No.
    Perhaps Marty can help me “get it”, but I don’t.

  350. russell: “Liberals tend to advocate more than….”
    Marty: “Because liberals never advocate for…”
    The construction of straw men is a sight to behold.
    Gosh, what do liberals stand for? Well, in a nutshell they stand for a somewhat activist federal government that implements policy goals desired by We The People such as good public schools, sound infrastructure, full employment, the reining in of private market excess, an effective social safety net, social and legal equality, public safety, etc., etc., and etc.
    These are things that, I believe, even straight white males, even a few of the saner Republican white males would see as desirable from a public policy perspective.
    As a straight white male myself, I fully concur with these policy goals, and the Democratic Party is, in my humble opinion, the best current fit as effective political entities go toward meeting my concerns.
    The “problem” of understanding “any problem worthy of concern” of white males is that I have yet to hear one. Are they discriminated against? No. Are they poorer than blacks, women or the LBGT community? No. Do they suffer disproportionately at the hands of our justice system? No.
    Perhaps Marty can help me “get it”, but I don’t.

  353. Marty,
    There’s at least one liberal who only dismisses stupid straight white males. Not-stupid straight white males are potentially winnable for Democrats, but the stupid ones will vote Republican until (and beyond) the day that a few rich straight white males own their asses and control their livelihoods.
    If the Democrats would listen to me, I’d advise them to tell the stupid straight white males, loudly and publicly, to vote Republican. The only thing that can educate the stupid straight white males is a few years of living under a Republican regime whose core belief is that poor people have too much money and rich people don’t have enough. That Republican regime will screw them financially while protecting their daughters’ right to own guns but restricting their daughters’ right to abort a pregnancy; screw them financially while stroking their “pride” in being white and straight and male; screw them financially while celebrating their stupidity.
    You can’t get a mule to join forces wih a donkey until he has been hit upside the head with a 2×4 enough times by an elephant.
    –TP

  354. Marty,
    There’s at least one liberal who only dismisses stupid straight white males. Not-stupid straight white males are potentially winnable for Democrats, but the stupid ones will vote Republican until (and beyond) the day that a few rich straight white males own their asses and control their livelihoods.
    If the Democrats would listen to me, I’d advise them to tell the stupid straight white males, loudly and publicly, to vote Republican. The only thing that can educate the stupid straight white males is a few years of living under a Republican regime whose core belief is that poor people have too much money and rich people don’t have enough. That Republican regime will screw them financially while protecting their daughters’ right to own guns but restricting their daughters’ right to abort a pregnancy; screw them financially while stroking their “pride” in being white and straight and male; screw them financially while celebrating their stupidity.
    You can’t get a mule to join forces wih a donkey until he has been hit upside the head with a 2×4 enough times by an elephant.
    –TP

  355. “Minorities have suffered more from government enforced discrimination; from the federal government, states’ Jim Crow laws, to white city regulations; than from white business owners, without the backing of governments, refusing to do business with them.”
    That is one peculiar paragraph.
    It is true that most governments in this country before Brown v Board of Education were run by albino lapdogs, talking parrots, copperheads, and domesticated seals.

  356. “Minorities have suffered more from government enforced discrimination; from the federal government, states’ Jim Crow laws, to white city regulations; than from white business owners, without the backing of governments, refusing to do business with them.”
    That is one peculiar paragraph.
    It is true that most governments in this country before Brown v Board of Education were run by albino lapdogs, talking parrots, copperheads, and domesticated seals.

  359. count, I am not saying that there are no programs that positively impact poor white males. The problem is they are not considered a meaningful advocacy group by liberals, even though they and their families make up the majority of EVERY financial strata in the US. The desperately poor, the technically poor, the working poor, the barely middle class on the verge of being poor. It isn’t that the programs exclude them, but everyone tells them they are privileged, they look in the mirror and wonder how much poorer they could be?
    Lots of them vote Democrat anyway, but the lower middle class on up can’t see any value for them in what the Democrats are selling.
    Until you get to the 1-3% where they consider voting Democrat akin to giving to the United Way. Except they believe they should sign everyone else up for it with them, so it isn’t just their donation they’re giving. And even then, the rhetoric is focused on helping everyone that isn’t white and male.
    Its hard when you’re game plan, as TP points out, is to immediately exclude 25 or 30% of the country from your big tent by constantly making them the problem.

  360. count, I am not saying that there are no programs that positively impact poor white males. The problem is they are not considered a meaningful advocacy group by liberals, even though they and their families make up the majority of EVERY financial strata in the US. The desperately poor, the technically poor, the working poor, the barely middle class on the verge of being poor. It isn’t that the programs exclude them, but everyone tells them they are privileged, they look in the mirror and wonder how much poorer they could be?
    Lots of them vote Democrat anyway, but the lower middle class on up can’t see any value for them in what the Democrats are selling.
    Until you get to the 1-3% where they consider voting Democrat akin to giving to the United Way. Except they believe they should sign everyone else up for it with them, so it isn’t just their donation they’re giving. And even then, the rhetoric is focused on helping everyone that isn’t white and male.
    Its hard when you’re game plan, as TP points out, is to immediately exclude 25 or 30% of the country from your big tent by constantly making them the problem.

  361. “It isn’t that the programs exclude them, but everyone tells them they are privileged, they look in the mirror and wonder how much poorer they could be?”
    I think a good many middle class white people look in the mirror and wonder why so many poor white people who depend on the programs are so black and Mexican.
    I think a good many wealthy white people look in the mirror and ask “Mirror, mirror, on the wall, who is the most deservedly privileged of them all and while we’re here, how can we prevent middle class people who are dunned out of their livelihoods and health insurance by “innovation”, “disruption”, and “right-sizing” from acting like those lazy blacks and Mexicans who we’re giving it all away to.
    As for the poor white unprivileged, I think some of them look in the mirror, and think, “Medicaid and Obamacare were pretty good programs until they let the darkies and wetbacks in on the deal.”
    http://www.eschatonblog.com/2017/06/middle-class-white-people-are-racists.html

  362. “It isn’t that the programs exclude them, but everyone tells them they are privileged, they look in the mirror and wonder how much poorer they could be?”
    I think a good many middle class white people look in the mirror and wonder why so many poor white people who depend on the programs are so black and Mexican.
    I think a good many wealthy white people look in the mirror and ask “Mirror, mirror, on the wall, who is the most deservedly privileged of them all and while we’re here, how can we prevent middle class people who are dunned out of their livelihoods and health insurance by “innovation”, “disruption”, and “right-sizing” from acting like those lazy blacks and Mexicans who we’re giving it all away to.
    As for the poor white unprivileged, I think some of them look in the mirror, and think, “Medicaid and Obamacare were pretty good programs until they let the darkies and wetbacks in on the deal.”
    http://www.eschatonblog.com/2017/06/middle-class-white-people-are-racists.html

  363. I assume that there’s something neuro-biologically real about the sense that “you” and your body are not the same gender
    one of my niece’s daughters basically lives her life as a boy. she’s 6, she’s been doing this for a couple of years now.
    nobody pushed her in that direction, it’s just what she wants to do.
    people should be able to be who they are. this is not a big ask.
    This is a fact
    I don’t dispute it. Liberals in general don’t single out straight white males as a demographic whose interests need special attention.
    maybe that’s a mistake.
    liberals tend to advocate for lots of policies that are to the benefit of lots of folks who are straight, white, and/or male. It could be that those folks don’t grasp that, because they aren’t presented as being for the particular benefit of straights, whites, or males.
    and maybe that’s a mistake, on their part.
    given the trends so far, I expect straight white males who aren’t wealthy, or at least wealthy-ish, to be thoroughly rogered by this administration and this Congress.
    and I expect those straight white males to blame everyone in the world but this administration, this Congress, and themselves.
    we’ll see where it all ends up. it could all go totally sideways.
    at least JD Vance made a pile out of it.
    good luck everyone.

  364. I assume that there’s something neuro-biologically real about the sense that “you” and your body are not the same gender
    one of my niece’s daughters basically lives her life as a boy. she’s 6, she’s been doing this for a couple of years now.
    nobody pushed her in that direction, it’s just what she wants to do.
    people should be able to be who they are. this is not a big ask.
    This is a fact
    I don’t dispute it. Liberals in general don’t single out straight white males as a demographic whose interests need special attention.
    maybe that’s a mistake.
    liberals tend to advocate for lots of policies that are to the benefit of lots of folks who are straight, white, and/or male. It could be that those folks don’t grasp that, because they aren’t presented as being for the particular benefit of straights, whites, or males.
    and maybe that’s a mistake, on their part.
    given the trends so far, I expect straight white males who aren’t wealthy, or at least wealthy-ish, to be thoroughly rogered by this administration and this Congress.
    and I expect those straight white males to blame everyone in the world but this administration, this Congress, and themselves.
    we’ll see where it all ends up. it could all go totally sideways.
    at least JD Vance made a pile out of it.
    good luck everyone.

  369. some libertarians would agree that there initially needed to be some kind of pressure applied to private business to accommodate minorities. But they think that the country has progressed enough that government force is no longer needed.
    Why does this put me in mind of the Supreme Court ruling that the South had changed enough that it no longer required Federal pre-approval to keep it from drawing district boundaries which discriminated against blacks? And I think we all recall how that turned out in practice.

  370. some libertarians would agree that there initially needed to be some kind of pressure applied to private business to accommodate minorities. But they think that the country has progressed enough that government force is no longer needed.
    Why does this put me in mind of the Supreme Court ruling that the South had changed enough that it no longer required Federal pre-approval to keep it from drawing district boundaries which discriminated against blacks? And I think we all recall how that turned out in practice.

  371. Apparently, according to this court, racial discrimination doesn’t require that the victim be non-white.
    “Rarely have we seen such manifest and open evidence of racial discrimination”, a three-judge panel at the Missouri Court of Appeals said in their ruling, as they upheld a 2015 jury verdict in favour of Beverly Wilkins.
    White professor was fired from predominantly black university due to colour of skin, court rules: The $5m awarded to Beverly Wilkins by a jury will also remain in place

  372. Apparently, according to this court, racial discrimination doesn’t require that the victim be non-white.
    “Rarely have we seen such manifest and open evidence of racial discrimination”, a three-judge panel at the Missouri Court of Appeals said in their ruling, as they upheld a 2015 jury verdict in favour of Beverly Wilkins.
    White professor was fired from predominantly black university due to colour of skin, court rules: The $5m awarded to Beverly Wilkins by a jury will also remain in place

  375. Its hard when you’re game plan, as TP points out, is to immediately exclude 25 or 30% of the country from your big tent by constantly making them the problem.
    not big on self-reflection are ye?

  376. Its hard when you’re game plan, as TP points out, is to immediately exclude 25 or 30% of the country from your big tent by constantly making them the problem.
    not big on self-reflection are ye?

  377. OK, I have now read the Lilla piece for the second time, and at the risk of making a bunch of people (ObWi) whose opinions I value despise me, I still find much of it persuasive. It’s not like he doesn’t agree with many of the “liberal” developments most of us hold dear:

    The moral energy surrounding identity has, of course, had many good effects. Affirmative action has reshaped and improved corporate life. Black Lives Matter has delivered a wake-up call to every American with a conscience. Hollywood’s efforts to normalize homosexuality in our popular culture helped to normalize it in American families and public life.

    But one of his main points seems to me vitally important, and the current story about McConnell gaming the legislative system totally supports it:

    We need a post-identity liberalism…………Teachers committed to such a liberalism would refocus attention on their main political responsibility in a democracy: to form committed citizens aware of their system of government and the major forces and events in our history. A post-identity liberalism would also emphasize that democracy is not only about rights; it also confers duties on its citizens, such as the duties to keep informed and vote.

    I’m not saying I agree with him about everything, particularly about how this is to be achieved, I don’t, but I think some parts of this need to be digested and acted upon if such (still) unbelievable outcomes as a Trump presidency (or worse) are to be avoided in the future.

  378. OK, I have now read the Lilla piece for the second time, and at the risk of making a bunch of people (ObWi) whose opinions I value despise me, I still find much of it persuasive. It’s not like he doesn’t agree with many of the “liberal” developments most of us hold dear:

    The moral energy surrounding identity has, of course, had many good effects. Affirmative action has reshaped and improved corporate life. Black Lives Matter has delivered a wake-up call to every American with a conscience. Hollywood’s efforts to normalize homosexuality in our popular culture helped to normalize it in American families and public life.

    But one of his main points seems to me vitally important, and the current story about McConnell gaming the legislative system totally supports it:

    We need a post-identity liberalism…………Teachers committed to such a liberalism would refocus attention on their main political responsibility in a democracy: to form committed citizens aware of their system of government and the major forces and events in our history. A post-identity liberalism would also emphasize that democracy is not only about rights; it also confers duties on its citizens, such as the duties to keep informed and vote.

    I’m not saying I agree with him about everything, particularly about how this is to be achieved, I don’t, but I think some parts of this need to be digested and acted upon if such (still) unbelievable outcomes as a Trump presidency (or worse) are to be avoided in the future.

  381. I’m gratified Beverly Wilkins received justice and reparations.
    GFNTC, I haven’t read the Lilla piece yet either, but I highly doubt anyone’s reaction here will be to despise you.
    “if white privilege doesn’t exist, how can this attempted murderer be a member of the White Privilege Club?
    Because each night as we sleep, the staff of The Onion examines the previous day’s events and all of its political commentary and then writes the punchline for the coming day?
    I marvel at the number of times someone in the news commits some offense or utters some imbecility and their very name convicts them.
    “A Yonkers man, identified as Peter I. Lyer, was apprehended today after he set an entire warehouse of men’s trousers on fyer.
    His attorney, the right honorable Abigail Purjury of the law firm Smirk, Smirk, Prevarication and Likearug, said her client was innocent of all charges in the preliminary hearing.

  382. I’m gratified Beverly Wilkins received justice and reparations.
    GFNTC, I haven’t read the Lilla piece yet either, but I highly doubt anyone’s reaction here will be to despise you.
    “if white privilege doesn’t exist, how can this attempted murderer be a member of the White Privilege Club?
    Because each night as we sleep, the staff of The Onion examines the previous day’s events and all of its political commentary and then writes the punchline for the coming day?
    I marvel at the number of times someone in the news commits some offense or utters some imbecility and their very name convicts them.
    “A Yonkers man, identified as Peter I. Lyer, was apprehended today after he set an entire warehouse of men’s trousers on fyer.
    His attorney, the right honorable Abigail Purjury of the law firm Smirk, Smirk, Prevarication and Likearug, said her client was innocent of all charges in the preliminary hearing.

  383. Teachers committed to such a liberalism would refocus attention on their main political responsibility in a democracy: to form committed citizens aware of their system of government and the major forces and events in our history.
    This is what makes some of us nervous: That teachers have a “political responsibility”. And that it is to indoctrinate students.

  384. Teachers committed to such a liberalism would refocus attention on their main political responsibility in a democracy: to form committed citizens aware of their system of government and the major forces and events in our history.
    This is what makes some of us nervous: That teachers have a “political responsibility”. And that it is to indoctrinate students.

  385. Here’s my most recent favorite headline:
    http://www.techrepublic.com/article/ai-could-lead-to-4-hour-workdays-and-world-war-iii-says-alibabas-jack-ma/#ftag=YHF87e0214?yptr=yahoo
    With our current luck, our first new day off (probably declared by conservative businessmen who just the day before were leaning out their car windows telling us to get off our asses and find a full time job) will be the very day they drop the hydrogen bomb on us.
    And to think we thought we might sleep in for once.

  386. Here’s my most recent favorite headline:
    http://www.techrepublic.com/article/ai-could-lead-to-4-hour-workdays-and-world-war-iii-says-alibabas-jack-ma/#ftag=YHF87e0214?yptr=yahoo
    With our current luck, our first new day off (probably declared by conservative businessmen who just the day before were leaning out their car windows telling us to get off our asses and find a full time job) will be the very day they drop the hydrogen bomb on us.
    And to think we thought we might sleep in for once.

  387. Teachers committed to such a liberalism would refocus attention on their main political responsibility in a democracy: to form committed citizens aware of their system of government and the major forces and events in our history.

    that’s not even a liberalism thing: we desperately need more and better civics education. if people actually knew how our government works, maybe we could stop obsessing about the President and start paying attention to Congress.

    A post-identity liberalism would also emphasize that democracy is not only about rights; it also confers duties on its citizens, such as the duties to keep informed and vote.

    i don’t find anything wrong with this. but it seems to me that this is already part of the pitch.
    this is essentially what Obama based his presidency on: “Be The Change…”, “It’s On Us”, etc.. Obama counted on people to keep informed, to vote, to vote for people who could help him achieve the things people voted him wanted. but of course, we didn’t do any of that; we sat on our thumbs in election after election and boohooed when he didn’t deliver the ponies.
    we don’t want the responsibility of having to pay attention. we deign to grudgingly trudge to the polls once every four years to elect the person who will just fix everything. we want someone who will takes the reigns and drive us to the promised land. Make America Great [Again]. Trump promised he would do it, he promised that only he could do it, and he asked nothing of the public in return – elect him and he would fix everything; we won’t have to worry our pretty little heads about the details. Big Alpha Daddy will make it all better. it’s entirely contrary to how our government works, but people don’t care about that. they want what they want, what’s possible is boring.
    so, yes to all of that stuff. but it seems like a big lift.

  388. Teachers committed to such a liberalism would refocus attention on their main political responsibility in a democracy: to form committed citizens aware of their system of government and the major forces and events in our history.

    that’s not even a liberalism thing: we desperately need more and better civics education. if people actually knew how our government works, maybe we could stop obsessing about the President and start paying attention to Congress.

    A post-identity liberalism would also emphasize that democracy is not only about rights; it also confers duties on its citizens, such as the duties to keep informed and vote.

    i don’t find anything wrong with this. but it seems to me that this is already part of the pitch.
    this is essentially what Obama based his presidency on: “Be The Change…”, “It’s On Us”, etc.. Obama counted on people to keep informed, to vote, to vote for people who could help him achieve the things people voted him wanted. but of course, we didn’t do any of that; we sat on our thumbs in election after election and boohooed when he didn’t deliver the ponies.
    we don’t want the responsibility of having to pay attention. we deign to grudgingly trudge to the polls once every four years to elect the person who will just fix everything. we want someone who will takes the reigns and drive us to the promised land. Make America Great [Again]. Trump promised he would do it, he promised that only he could do it, and he asked nothing of the public in return – elect him and he would fix everything; we won’t have to worry our pretty little heads about the details. Big Alpha Daddy will make it all better. it’s entirely contrary to how our government works, but people don’t care about that. they want what they want, what’s possible is boring.
    so, yes to all of that stuff. but it seems like a big lift.

  391. This is what makes some of us nervous: That teachers have a”political responsibility”. And that it is to indoctrinate students.
    And yet, isn’t that exactly what our teachers of civics classes have been doing for decades? They teach how our form of government works, in theory and, hopefully, in practice. That’s both their political and professional responsibility.
    Or are you suggesting that all political systems are of equal merit, so no teacher should favor one over another?

  392. This is what makes some of us nervous: That teachers have a”political responsibility”. And that it is to indoctrinate students.
    And yet, isn’t that exactly what our teachers of civics classes have been doing for decades? They teach how our form of government works, in theory and, hopefully, in practice. That’s both their political and professional responsibility.
    Or are you suggesting that all political systems are of equal merit, so no teacher should favor one over another?

  393. As long as they don’t get the summers off, receive tenure, or form a union.
    Or take sides when teaching the events of the Civil War.
    And can field questions like “Yeah, so where in your Constitution does it say we can’t smoke in the bathroom?” without excusing themselves for a desperate smoke in the teacher’s lounge, or now, outside in the parking lot as brainwashing takes its long term toll.

  394. As long as they don’t get the summers off, receive tenure, or form a union.
    Or take sides when teaching the events of the Civil War.
    And can field questions like “Yeah, so where in your Constitution does it say we can’t smoke in the bathroom?” without excusing themselves for a desperate smoke in the teacher’s lounge, or now, outside in the parking lot as brainwashing takes its long term toll.

  395. “or now, outside in the parking lot as brainwashing takes its long term toll. ”
    Now the campus is no smoking so they have to smoke in the Circle K parking lot across the street, or duck down in their cars to avoid suspension. In the meantime the students smoke pot while walking between classes.

  396. “or now, outside in the parking lot as brainwashing takes its long term toll. ”
    Now the campus is no smoking so they have to smoke in the Circle K parking lot across the street, or duck down in their cars to avoid suspension. In the meantime the students smoke pot while walking between classes.

  397. In the meantime the students smoke pot while walking between classes.
    same as it ever was.

  398. In the meantime the students smoke pot while walking between classes.
    same as it ever was.

  399. we don’t want the responsibility of having to pay attention.
    Now there’s a grand theme with many possible riffs – marx’s concept of alienation for one (cue mcmanus).
    GFNC – the first thing we do at our local Democratic Party LD meeting each month is recite the pledge of allegiance (lots of mumble mumble at the point of ‘under god’, but I digress). The meetings are infused with an overwhelming passion for public participation and civic virtue. I’d wager dollars to donuts that GOP LD meetings are similar in this respect.
    Lille is just dead wrong, and basically puts all the burden on “liberals”. It is a standard concern troll dodge.
    He needs to get out of his office more and actually speak with people who are directly engaged in the political process.

  400. we don’t want the responsibility of having to pay attention.
    Now there’s a grand theme with many possible riffs – marx’s concept of alienation for one (cue mcmanus).
    GFNC – the first thing we do at our local Democratic Party LD meeting each month is recite the pledge of allegiance (lots of mumble mumble at the point of ‘under god’, but I digress). The meetings are infused with an overwhelming passion for public participation and civic virtue. I’d wager dollars to donuts that GOP LD meetings are similar in this respect.
    Lille is just dead wrong, and basically puts all the burden on “liberals”. It is a standard concern troll dodge.
    He needs to get out of his office more and actually speak with people who are directly engaged in the political process.

  401. lots of mumble mumble at the point of ‘under god’, but I digress
    If they don’t mind being a bit conservative, they could just go back to the early 1950s’ version, and leave out that new-fangled “under god” addition.

  402. lots of mumble mumble at the point of ‘under god’, but I digress
    If they don’t mind being a bit conservative, they could just go back to the early 1950s’ version, and leave out that new-fangled “under god” addition.

  403. If they don’t mind being a bit conservative, they could just go back to the early 1950s’ version, and leave out that new-fangled “under god” addition.
    Typical conservative…always trying to go back into the past. 🙂

  404. If they don’t mind being a bit conservative, they could just go back to the early 1950s’ version, and leave out that new-fangled “under god” addition.
    Typical conservative…always trying to go back into the past. 🙂

  405. GFNC – the first thing we do at our local Democratic Party LD meeting each month is recite the pledge of allegiance (lots of mumble mumble at the point of ‘under god’, but I digress). The meetings are infused with an overwhelming passion for public participation and civic virtue. I’d wager dollars to donuts that GOP LD meetings are similar in this respect.
    Lille is just dead wrong, and basically puts all the burden on “liberals”. It is a standard concern troll dodge.
    bobbyp, I don’t doubt you’re right in this first paragraph. But his point is that kids need to be taught about this, and taught it well, which I assume they are not being, given the stats quoted upthread about how few respondents know anything about e.g. the stages of the legislative process. Clearly, this is not only the responsibility of liberals, and clearly cleek is right somewhere upthread where he demonstrates that Dems are being cheated of electoral victory under the current EC and gerrymandered system. But nothing can be changed without electoral success, and one way to start to build a greater chance of electoral success, even with the cards stacked against you, is to start talking about the things that need changing, and to engage a majority (an even greater majority) of the public in the conversation. It certainly doesn’t look at the moment as if the Rs want a better informed, engaged public (for example of people who are going to lose their health coverage, or die because of environmental pollution), but the Dems do, and I don’t think it’s wrong that they (and liberals in general) should look at how they might change their offering, without compromising their principles too much, in order to achieve it.

  406. GFNC – the first thing we do at our local Democratic Party LD meeting each month is recite the pledge of allegiance (lots of mumble mumble at the point of ‘under god’, but I digress). The meetings are infused with an overwhelming passion for public participation and civic virtue. I’d wager dollars to donuts that GOP LD meetings are similar in this respect.
    Lille is just dead wrong, and basically puts all the burden on “liberals”. It is a standard concern troll dodge.
    bobbyp, I don’t doubt you’re right in this first paragraph. But his point is that kids need to be taught about this, and taught it well, which I assume they are not being, given the stats quoted upthread about how few respondents know anything about e.g. the stages of the legislative process. Clearly, this is not only the responsibility of liberals, and clearly cleek is right somewhere upthread where he demonstrates that Dems are being cheated of electoral victory under the current EC and gerrymandered system. But nothing can be changed without electoral success, and one way to start to build a greater chance of electoral success, even with the cards stacked against you, is to start talking about the things that need changing, and to engage a majority (an even greater majority) of the public in the conversation. It certainly doesn’t look at the moment as if the Rs want a better informed, engaged public (for example of people who are going to lose their health coverage, or die because of environmental pollution), but the Dems do, and I don’t think it’s wrong that they (and liberals in general) should look at how they might change their offering, without compromising their principles too much, in order to achieve it.

  409. Schools try to teach algebra. They could also try to teach civics.
    For many (most?) students, algebra is something to forget as soon as the final exam is over, because they neither have to practice it nor discuss it in real life around the water cooler or at family gatherings or in the local pub. Same would go for civics, I fear.
    In a culture where talking about politics is considered impolite, or disruptive, or confrontational, or something, civics stands no better chance than algebra does of sticking to the ribs of the populace. It’s for nerds, not for kool kidz.
    We should try to teach the next generation how governance works, of course. I’m just saying that for the teaching to do any good, we need to get over our reticence about “talking politics” in polite company.
    –TP

  410. Schools try to teach algebra. They could also try to teach civics.
    For many (most?) students, algebra is something to forget as soon as the final exam is over, because they neither have to practice it nor discuss it in real life around the water cooler or at family gatherings or in the local pub. Same would go for civics, I fear.
    In a culture where talking about politics is considered impolite, or disruptive, or confrontational, or something, civics stands no better chance than algebra does of sticking to the ribs of the populace. It’s for nerds, not for kool kidz.
    We should try to teach the next generation how governance works, of course. I’m just saying that for the teaching to do any good, we need to get over our reticence about “talking politics” in polite company.
    –TP

  413. one way to start to build a greater chance of electoral success, even with the cards stacked against you, is to start talking about the things that need changing, and to engage a majority (an even greater majority) of the public in the conversation.
    That doesn’t seem to be working so well, even here in the ObWi microcosm. By the way, the cards that are stacked against the liberal majority of the population are becoming more abundant, and more antidemocratic (in other words, a majority of the population voted for Hillary Clinton, but she still lost, for reasons that have nothing to do with persuasion). That doesn’t bode well, although I’m still throwing money down the drain of Democratic electoral candidates’ fundraising campaigns, and I plan to begin canvassing in VA for the Dems in the 2017 gubernatorial race very soon.
    It’s really not about “changing their offering”.
    In a culture where talking about politics is considered impolite, or disruptive, or confrontational, or something
    That’s because it very often is. It’s still important to do.

  414. one way to start to build a greater chance of electoral success, even with the cards stacked against you, is to start talking about the things that need changing, and to engage a majority (an even greater majority) of the public in the conversation.
    That doesn’t seem to be working so well, even here in the ObWi microcosm. By the way, the cards that are stacked against the liberal majority of the population are becoming more abundant, and more antidemocratic (in other words, a majority of the population voted for Hillary Clinton, but she still lost, for reasons that have nothing to do with persuasion). That doesn’t bode well, although I’m still throwing money down the drain of Democratic electoral candidates’ fundraising campaigns, and I plan to begin canvassing in VA for the Dems in the 2017 gubernatorial race very soon.
    It’s really not about “changing their offering”.
    In a culture where talking about politics is considered impolite, or disruptive, or confrontational, or something
    That’s because it very often is. It’s still important to do.

  417. in other words, a majority of the population voted for Hillary Clinton, but she still lost, for reasons that have nothing to do with persuasion
    I believe this is covered by cleek’s analysis upthread, to which I refer. But when you say:
    It’s really not about “changing their offering”
    you worry me. If it wasn’t your offering, it was your candidate. Which do you think it was? Or was it both, or neither?

  418. in other words, a majority of the population voted for Hillary Clinton, but she still lost, for reasons that have nothing to do with persuasion
    I believe this is covered by cleek’s analysis upthread, to which I refer. But when you say:
    It’s really not about “changing their offering”
    you worry me. If it wasn’t your offering, it was your candidate. Which do you think it was? Or was it both, or neither?

  431. If it wasn’t your offering, it was your candidate.
    I’m not sure there was only one thing, but discounting the effect of Russian propaganda, irresponsible journalism, the FBI director’s unfortunate public comments, and targeted and effective voter suppression, and blaming it all on Clinton’s having said the wrong word once, or ineffective discussion of policy, is just missing the picture.
    Our “offering” and our “candidate” were discussed endlessly right here. One of the reasons I focus on people who comment here is that we don’t have to assume that people here are ill-informed, or that they haven’t had the opportunity to be persuaded. You saw what people thought, and they told you why they thought it. It was a combination of cleek’s law for Republicans, and purist leftists for whom Clinton wasn’t good enough. Putin’s trolls mostly appealed to the latter. Certainly, one could also throw in a bit of misogyny and Clinton derangement syndrome. So, yeah, Clinton won’t run next time, but the same folks didn’t like Gore or Kerry, and we’ll face many of the same obsticles. Obama was particularly charismatic, and ran at a time that the economy had just tanked.
    No, I’m not optimistic. Even if a majority of the people support Democratic party policies, we still have to face voter suppression, Russian hacking, and the fact that incumbent Republicans are authoritarian monsters who will stop at nothing to retain power.

  432. If it wasn’t your offering, it was your candidate.
    I’m not sure there was only one thing, but discounting the effect of Russian propaganda, irresponsible journalism, the FBI director’s unfortunate public comments, and targeted and effective voter suppression, and blaming it all on Clinton’s having said the wrong word once, or ineffective discussion of policy, is just missing the picture.
    Our “offering” and our “candidate” were discussed endlessly right here. One of the reasons I focus on people who comment here is that we don’t have to assume that people here are ill-informed, or that they haven’t had the opportunity to be persuaded. You saw what people thought, and they told you why they thought it. It was a combination of cleek’s law for Republicans, and purist leftists for whom Clinton wasn’t good enough. Putin’s trolls mostly appealed to the latter. Certainly, one could also throw in a bit of misogyny and Clinton derangement syndrome. So, yeah, Clinton won’t run next time, but the same folks didn’t like Gore or Kerry, and we’ll face many of the same obsticles. Obama was particularly charismatic, and ran at a time that the economy had just tanked.
    No, I’m not optimistic. Even if a majority of the people support Democratic party policies, we still have to face voter suppression, Russian hacking, and the fact that incumbent Republicans are authoritarian monsters who will stop at nothing to retain power.

  433. But his point is that kids need to be taught about this, and taught it well,
    Well, OK. That’s fine as far as it goes.
    which I assume they are not being
    Big assumption.
    …given the stats quoted upthread about how few respondents know anything about e.g. the stages of the legislative process.
    If so, this is not surprising. I doubt if the extent of this civic knowledge has varied significantly over time.
    Clearly, this is not only the responsibility of liberals
    Yes. Clearly. But not according to prof. Lille it would seem.
    But nothing can be changed without electoral success
    Indeed. That is stating the obvious.
    and one way to start to build a greater chance of electoral success…is to start talking about the things that need changing…
    This is called policy and policy support. This is politics. This is what political parties do. This is basically a tautology.
    and to engage a majority (an even greater majority) of the public in the conversation.
    The implication here is that somehow the Democrats are not “engaging” the “majority”. As cleek and Sapient both point out, Democrats typically succeed at persuading “the majority” (i.e., the greatest number of votes actually cast). This is true not only for presidential contests, but for Congressional contests as well.
    Lille is essentially arguing that to get “more” votes, the Democrats need to change their message and essentially tell important parts of their political coalition to just shut up.
    As things stand currently, this will not happen.
    It certainly doesn’t look at the moment as if the Rs want a better informed, engaged public (for example of people who are going to lose their health coverage, or die because of environmental pollution)
    Yep.
    but the Dems do, and I don’t think it’s wrong that they (and liberals in general) should look at how they might change their offering, without compromising their principles too much, in order to achieve it.
    On this point we continue to disagree. Asking people to compromise their principles “just a little bit” is not an effective political message.
    All the best.

  434. But his point is that kids need to be taught about this, and taught it well,
    Well, OK. That’s fine as far as it goes.
    which I assume they are not being
    Big assumption.
    …given the stats quoted upthread about how few respondents know anything about e.g. the stages of the legislative process.
    If so, this is not surprising. I doubt if the extent of this civic knowledge has varied significantly over time.
    Clearly, this is not only the responsibility of liberals
    Yes. Clearly. But not according to prof. Lille it would seem.
    But nothing can be changed without electoral success
    Indeed. That is stating the obvious.
    and one way to start to build a greater chance of electoral success…is to start talking about the things that need changing…
    This is called policy and policy support. This is politics. This is what political parties do. This is basically a tautology.
    and to engage a majority (an even greater majority) of the public in the conversation.
    The implication here is that somehow the Democrats are not “engaging” the “majority”. As cleek and Sapient both point out, Democrats typically succeed at persuading “the majority” (i.e., the greatest number of votes actually cast). This is true not only for presidential contests, but for Congressional contests as well.
    Lille is essentially arguing that to get “more” votes, the Democrats need to change their message and essentially tell important parts of their political coalition to just shut up.
    As things stand currently, this will not happen.
    It certainly doesn’t look at the moment as if the Rs want a better informed, engaged public (for example of people who are going to lose their health coverage, or die because of environmental pollution)
    Yep.
    but the Dems do, and I don’t think it’s wrong that they (and liberals in general) should look at how they might change their offering, without compromising their principles too much, in order to achieve it.
    On this point we continue to disagree. Asking people to compromise their principles “just a little bit” is not an effective political message.
    All the best.

  435. why haven’t ObWi’s resident Republicans been cheer-leading the ACHA ?
    Perhaps because we can recognize a pile of garbage when we see it. Perhaps because we actually believe in things like open debate when considering major changes in public policy, not having just a handful of guys writing something in total secrecy. Or perhaps all of the above.
    No question Obamacare needs some tweaks. But what is proposed (at least what we’ve been permitted to see) is simply passing “something” for the sake of passing something.

  436. why haven’t ObWi’s resident Republicans been cheer-leading the ACHA ?
    Perhaps because we can recognize a pile of garbage when we see it. Perhaps because we actually believe in things like open debate when considering major changes in public policy, not having just a handful of guys writing something in total secrecy. Or perhaps all of the above.
    No question Obamacare needs some tweaks. But what is proposed (at least what we’ve been permitted to see) is simply passing “something” for the sake of passing something.

  437. For GFNC…perhaps prof lille should be directing his fire elsewhere.
    For wj…no, it is not just to “pass something”. They don’t just want to pass a kidney stone. They are sacrificing our tattered public healthcare safety net, such as it is, on the altar of tax cuts for the rich.

  438. For GFNC…perhaps prof lille should be directing his fire elsewhere.
    For wj…no, it is not just to “pass something”. They don’t just want to pass a kidney stone. They are sacrificing our tattered public healthcare safety net, such as it is, on the altar of tax cuts for the rich.

  439. Perhaps because we can recognize a pile of garbage when we see it.
    have any of you made any noise to your Reps about this?

  440. Perhaps because we can recognize a pile of garbage when we see it.
    have any of you made any noise to your Reps about this?

  441. This is called policy and policy support. This is politics. This is what political parties do.
    Say, rather, that this is what political parties are supposed to do. At the moment, there’s rather more personal demonization and obscuration than policy** on display. Maybe because that’s what sells, but it still crowds policy out of the public debate.
    ** This excludes, necessarily, “policies” which are all platitudes and mutually conflicting proposals. Again, a magic wand may be what sells, but that doesn’t make it a policy.

  442. This is called policy and policy support. This is politics. This is what political parties do.
    Say, rather, that this is what political parties are supposed to do. At the moment, there’s rather more personal demonization and obscuration than policy** on display. Maybe because that’s what sells, but it still crowds policy out of the public debate.
    ** This excludes, necessarily, “policies” which are all platitudes and mutually conflicting proposals. Again, a magic wand may be what sells, but that doesn’t make it a policy.

  443. Open Tread?
    109 today in Sacramento
    California ISO reports that 50% of the state’s nuclear capacity is unavailable, 11% of the state’s natural gas plants are out of service and 0.3% of the state’s solar fleet are not producing power.

  444. Open Tread?
    109 today in Sacramento
    California ISO reports that 50% of the state’s nuclear capacity is unavailable, 11% of the state’s natural gas plants are out of service and 0.3% of the state’s solar fleet are not producing power.

  445. They don’t just want to pass a kidney stone. They are sacrificing our tattered public healthcare safety net, such as it is, on the altar of tax cuts for the rich.
    I disagree. They feel compelled, after years of posturing to pass something, anything, which can be spun as “repealing Obamacare”. If they can tack on a big tax cut, that’s certainly a plus. But most of them would sacrifice the tax cut in a heartbeat, if that was the price of passing something.
    Actually, it would probably be easier to pass their big tax cut without all the negatives of health care muddying the waters. Too many Republican Senators have too many constituents who will get burned by the AHCA to make the current path the optimum one.

  446. They don’t just want to pass a kidney stone. They are sacrificing our tattered public healthcare safety net, such as it is, on the altar of tax cuts for the rich.
    I disagree. They feel compelled, after years of posturing to pass something, anything, which can be spun as “repealing Obamacare”. If they can tack on a big tax cut, that’s certainly a plus. But most of them would sacrifice the tax cut in a heartbeat, if that was the price of passing something.
    Actually, it would probably be easier to pass their big tax cut without all the negatives of health care muddying the waters. Too many Republican Senators have too many constituents who will get burned by the AHCA to make the current path the optimum one.

  447. Today’s politics: the equivalent of 1950’s era television in Japan.

    • Noh plays
    • Sumo wrestling
    • I Love Lucy with subtitles

  448. Today’s politics: the equivalent of 1950’s era television in Japan.

    • Noh plays
    • Sumo wrestling
    • I Love Lucy with subtitles

  449. have any of you made any noise to your Reps about this?
    Yup. Although since they’re all Democrats, it was probably unnecessary.

  450. have any of you made any noise to your Reps about this?
    Yup. Although since they’re all Democrats, it was probably unnecessary.

  451. Indeed. That is stating the obvious
    Yes, one would think so.
    and one way to start to build a greater chance of electoral success…is to start talking about the things that need changing…
    This is called policy and policy support. This is politics. This is what political parties do. This is basically a tautology.
    Again, one would think so. And yet, an even greater majority of voters, particularly of certain groups, did not think this was being done for their concerns.
    and to engage a majority (an even greater majority) of the public in the conversation.
    The implication here is that somehow the Democrats are not “engaging” the “majority”. As cleek and Sapient both point out, Democrats typically succeed at persuading “the majority” (i.e., the greatest number of votes actually cast)
    This is why I took care to specify “an even greater majority”.
    I believe that the Rs in Georgia 06, for example, are what is called “reluctant Trumpers”, and as a demographic are on the more highly-educated side. The Dems did not find a way to convert them, despite the outrages committed daily by Trump, his merry men, what comes out about the Russians etc etc etc. without end. Something has got to give. If you can’t convert some people who voted R last time, what will change, your majority notwithstanding? I do not think it should be beyond the wit of man (or woman) to come up with an offering that convinces more weak-Rs, while still remaining true to your core principles. And furthermore, on your principles objection, nothing is to stop Dems doing the right thing by all the groups they traditionally represent, after they win an election in which they have directed their rhetoric differently, but not dishonestly.

  452. Indeed. That is stating the obvious
    Yes, one would think so.
    and one way to start to build a greater chance of electoral success…is to start talking about the things that need changing…
    This is called policy and policy support. This is politics. This is what political parties do. This is basically a tautology.
    Again, one would think so. And yet, an even greater majority of voters, particularly of certain groups, did not think this was being done for their concerns.
    and to engage a majority (an even greater majority) of the public in the conversation.
    The implication here is that somehow the Democrats are not “engaging” the “majority”. As cleek and Sapient both point out, Democrats typically succeed at persuading “the majority” (i.e., the greatest number of votes actually cast)
    This is why I took care to specify “an even greater majority”.
    I believe that the Rs in Georgia 06, for example, are what is called “reluctant Trumpers”, and as a demographic are on the more highly-educated side. The Dems did not find a way to convert them, despite the outrages committed daily by Trump, his merry men, what comes out about the Russians etc etc etc. without end. Something has got to give. If you can’t convert some people who voted R last time, what will change, your majority notwithstanding? I do not think it should be beyond the wit of man (or woman) to come up with an offering that convinces more weak-Rs, while still remaining true to your core principles. And furthermore, on your principles objection, nothing is to stop Dems doing the right thing by all the groups they traditionally represent, after they win an election in which they have directed their rhetoric differently, but not dishonestly.

  453. We need a post-identity liberalism
    I think what Lilla is looking for is a post-identity society. That’s unlikely to emerge, and I don’t think it’s the job of the (D)’s to single-handedly lead the charge.
    The (D)’s have been losing the white middle class since Nixon. Silent Majority, Reagan Republicans, Bush Democrats. IMO all of that always seems to come back to “the (D)’s are giving our stuff to those people”. Or at least, “the (D)’s are giving stuff to those people and not to us”.
    In the real world outside the orbit of Fox News, liberal policies do a shitload for the white working class. Look at the positions of Sanders, or Warren. Look at the Congressional Progressive Caucus budget proposals. Look at who makes up the bulk of folks receiving food stamps, or Medicaid, or housing assistance, or job training. Look at the actual performance of the manufacturing sector under Obama.
    If cutting off their support for minorities and/or other marginalized demographics is the price for winning back the white middle class vote, I’m not sure it’s worth the candle.
    Trump won, Hillary lost. Better luck next time. Liberals should focus on building a 50-state local political base, reversing the gerrymandering of the House districts, and taking back the House.
    I’m fine if liberals want to polish up their pitch to white working people. I completely agree that Clinton neglected her ground game in the midwest industrial states. Those are tactical points, not strategic or substantive ones.
    I don’t see winning back the white working class by kicking everybody else back to the curb as a good play. FDR could make it work, but we’re a different country now. Thankfully.

  454. We need a post-identity liberalism
    I think what Lilla is looking for is a post-identity society. That’s unlikely to emerge, and I don’t think it’s the job of the (D)’s to single-handedly lead the charge.
    The (D)’s have been losing the white middle class since Nixon. Silent Majority, Reagan Republicans, Bush Democrats. IMO all of that always seems to come back to “the (D)’s are giving our stuff to those people”. Or at least, “the (D)’s are giving stuff to those people and not to us”.
    In the real world outside the orbit of Fox News, liberal policies do a shitload for the white working class. Look at the positions of Sanders, or Warren. Look at the Congressional Progressive Caucus budget proposals. Look at who makes up the bulk of folks receiving food stamps, or Medicaid, or housing assistance, or job training. Look at the actual performance of the manufacturing sector under Obama.
    If cutting off their support for minorities and/or other marginalized demographics is the price for winning back the white middle class vote, I’m not sure it’s worth the candle.
    Trump won, Hillary lost. Better luck next time. Liberals should focus on building a 50-state local political base, reversing the gerrymandering of the House districts, and taking back the House.
    I’m fine if liberals want to polish up their pitch to white working people. I completely agree that Clinton neglected her ground game in the midwest industrial states. Those are tactical points, not strategic or substantive ones.
    I don’t see winning back the white working class by kicking everybody else back to the curb as a good play. FDR could make it work, but we’re a different country now. Thankfully.

  455. 109 today in Sacramento.
    Nearly that down in the East Bay. Glad I’m in Istanbul on business; it’s at least 20 degrees cooler than at home.

  456. 109 today in Sacramento.
    Nearly that down in the East Bay. Glad I’m in Istanbul on business; it’s at least 20 degrees cooler than at home.

  457. Yup. Although since they’re all Democrats, it was probably unnecessary.
    i know the feeling.
    except mine are all Republicans.

  458. Yup. Although since they’re all Democrats, it was probably unnecessary.
    i know the feeling.
    except mine are all Republicans.

  459. 109 today in Sacramento.
    Here, in the Dallas area, I’ve only used my A/C for a few minutes one day so far this year. But that’s me. I don’t temperatures up to about 92 degrees as long as I have a fan.

  460. 109 today in Sacramento.
    Here, in the Dallas area, I’ve only used my A/C for a few minutes one day so far this year. But that’s me. I don’t temperatures up to about 92 degrees as long as I have a fan.

  461. “reluctant Trumpers”, and as a demographic are on the more highly-educated side.
    Like McKinney and Marty? Again, I know people don’t like to actually hold people here to their views, but what could Ossoff have done to win their vote? Be anti-choice, anti-ACA, and what else?
    And furthermore, on your principles objection, nothing is to stop Dems doing the right thing by all the groups they traditionally represent, after they win an election in which they have directed their rhetoric differently, but not dishonestly.
    But Hillary, in the ’90’s, used the word “predator”. Do you really think that sending dog whistles to the demographic you’re talking about isn’t going to fatally piss off Democrats?

  462. “reluctant Trumpers”, and as a demographic are on the more highly-educated side.
    Like McKinney and Marty? Again, I know people don’t like to actually hold people here to their views, but what could Ossoff have done to win their vote? Be anti-choice, anti-ACA, and what else?
    And furthermore, on your principles objection, nothing is to stop Dems doing the right thing by all the groups they traditionally represent, after they win an election in which they have directed their rhetoric differently, but not dishonestly.
    But Hillary, in the ’90’s, used the word “predator”. Do you really think that sending dog whistles to the demographic you’re talking about isn’t going to fatally piss off Democrats?

  463. In the real world outside the orbit of Fox News, liberal policies do a shitload for the white working class. Look at the positions of Sanders, or Warren. Look at the Congressional Progressive Caucus budget proposals. Look at who makes up the bulk of folks receiving food stamps, or Medicaid, or housing assistance, or job training. Look at the actual performance of the manufacturing sector under Obama.
    What it comes down to is, the Democrats do a lousy job of getting that point across. It’s fine to blame Fox News. But what do you do, if that’s really the problem?
    Any of you folks on the left considered starting your own network? One that rings the culture wars bells (since that seems to be what brings in the viewers), but also makes the case for government programs which benefit those you are trying to reach? It seems, from the outside, like it ought to be possible to do. Most Democrats might be conflicted by the idea, but that doesn’t mean it would be a bad idea from an electoral point of view. Might even make some money, and pull some from Murdoch — which has to be a plus in and of itself.

  464. In the real world outside the orbit of Fox News, liberal policies do a shitload for the white working class. Look at the positions of Sanders, or Warren. Look at the Congressional Progressive Caucus budget proposals. Look at who makes up the bulk of folks receiving food stamps, or Medicaid, or housing assistance, or job training. Look at the actual performance of the manufacturing sector under Obama.
    What it comes down to is, the Democrats do a lousy job of getting that point across. It’s fine to blame Fox News. But what do you do, if that’s really the problem?
    Any of you folks on the left considered starting your own network? One that rings the culture wars bells (since that seems to be what brings in the viewers), but also makes the case for government programs which benefit those you are trying to reach? It seems, from the outside, like it ought to be possible to do. Most Democrats might be conflicted by the idea, but that doesn’t mean it would be a bad idea from an electoral point of view. Might even make some money, and pull some from Murdoch — which has to be a plus in and of itself.

  465. Any of you folks on the left considered starting your own network?
    there have been several attempts. liberals just don’t want the bubble the way conservatives do.

  466. Any of you folks on the left considered starting your own network?
    there have been several attempts. liberals just don’t want the bubble the way conservatives do.

  467. Lilla should like this guy.
    Any of you folks on the left considered starting your own network?
    Some folks would say that NPR is already that. I’d disagree actually, NPR is kind of the David Brooks network – Nice Polite Republicans.
    My opinion.
    A more likely candidate would be the topical comedy shows – Saturday Night Live, the Daily Show, Colbert.
    In any case, as a self-described lefty, I’m not really interested in watching people who claim to agree with me yell all day long. If I’m at all typical, the market is just not there, and that’s probably why it doesn’t exist.
    It sorta-kinda actually does exist – Amy Goodman, Thom Hartmann, etc. – but mostly nobody watches it.
    QED
    And for the record, I’m not blaming Fox News for anything. Nobody makes people watch it, folks watch it because they want to. And that’s your problem, right there.
    Maybe you can tell me what the (D)’s should say that they aren’t already saying, if they want to win over all the folks who just couldn’t bring themselves to vote for Hilary. There’s a good consulting income in it for you, if you have a good answer. Personally, I’m at a loss.
    I think the winning hearts and minds thing is not gonna happen until folks drain the last dregs from their Trump cocktail and decide it’s not for them. If they decide it’s not for them. I’m pretty damned sure there’s nothing anyone like me is going to say or do that is going to change their minds.
    Mostly what I do these days is just shut and let folks figure stuff out for themselves. If I try to discuss it with them, it only makes them dig in deeper. So, they’ll figure stuff out when they figure it out.
    I wish them luck. Not dismissively, but really. They may need it.
    The Senate version of the AHCA is likely to pass, because McConnell will find a way to jam it through. People are going to lose their insurance, and they’re going to get sick and suffer, and some of them will die.
    If that doesn’t make the point, there is bugger all I’m gonna say that is going to do it.
    You can lead a horse to water, as they say. Making them drink is just not one of my superpowers.

  468. Lilla should like this guy.
    Any of you folks on the left considered starting your own network?
    Some folks would say that NPR is already that. I’d disagree actually, NPR is kind of the David Brooks network – Nice Polite Republicans.
    My opinion.
    A more likely candidate would be the topical comedy shows – Saturday Night Live, the Daily Show, Colbert.
    In any case, as a self-described lefty, I’m not really interested in watching people who claim to agree with me yell all day long. If I’m at all typical, the market is just not there, and that’s probably why it doesn’t exist.
    It sorta-kinda actually does exist – Amy Goodman, Thom Hartmann, etc. – but mostly nobody watches it.
    QED
    And for the record, I’m not blaming Fox News for anything. Nobody makes people watch it, folks watch it because they want to. And that’s your problem, right there.
    Maybe you can tell me what the (D)’s should say that they aren’t already saying, if they want to win over all the folks who just couldn’t bring themselves to vote for Hilary. There’s a good consulting income in it for you, if you have a good answer. Personally, I’m at a loss.
    I think the winning hearts and minds thing is not gonna happen until folks drain the last dregs from their Trump cocktail and decide it’s not for them. If they decide it’s not for them. I’m pretty damned sure there’s nothing anyone like me is going to say or do that is going to change their minds.
    Mostly what I do these days is just shut and let folks figure stuff out for themselves. If I try to discuss it with them, it only makes them dig in deeper. So, they’ll figure stuff out when they figure it out.
    I wish them luck. Not dismissively, but really. They may need it.
    The Senate version of the AHCA is likely to pass, because McConnell will find a way to jam it through. People are going to lose their insurance, and they’re going to get sick and suffer, and some of them will die.
    If that doesn’t make the point, there is bugger all I’m gonna say that is going to do it.
    You can lead a horse to water, as they say. Making them drink is just not one of my superpowers.

  469. as a self-described lefty, I’m not really interested in watching people who claim to agree with me yell all day long.
    You’ve totally missed the point. You aren’t the target market. Nor are the folks watching NPR. The idea is to pull people away from Fox, by giving them what they go there for (culture wars stuff, mostly) combined with some reality on what government programs do for them.
    You’d probably hate it, not least for the culture wars stuff. But, as I say, you aren’t the target market. It’s the folks you are trying to reach with the economic part of your message; and you ignore the cultural part of your message for the sake of reaching them.

  470. as a self-described lefty, I’m not really interested in watching people who claim to agree with me yell all day long.
    You’ve totally missed the point. You aren’t the target market. Nor are the folks watching NPR. The idea is to pull people away from Fox, by giving them what they go there for (culture wars stuff, mostly) combined with some reality on what government programs do for them.
    You’d probably hate it, not least for the culture wars stuff. But, as I say, you aren’t the target market. It’s the folks you are trying to reach with the economic part of your message; and you ignore the cultural part of your message for the sake of reaching them.

  471. Honestly, sapient, I’m endlessly on record as opposing McKinney’s and Marty’s decision to abstain, and praising, for example, David Frum’s decision to do the opposite. You know perfectly well I think Trump is a disaster, and Hillary would have been infinitely better for everyone, except possibly billionaires (athough maybe for them too – they live in the environment as well). Clearly, I think McKinney and Marty were badly wrong, and the chickens are still endlessly coming home to roost. What more do you want? Signs hung round their necks like in the Cultural Revolution?
    The piece in the Atlantic on Ossoff’s loss ends:
    Just as Handel aspired to be as generic a Republican as possible, Ossoff hoped to be, as much as possible, a blank slate, a nice young man in whom disgruntled voters of all stripes could see the alternative they wanted. His campaign slogan proclaimed him “Humble. Kind. Ready to Fight”—a positionless vessel of 2017’s cross-cutting political angst. It was a decision many would second-guess after the results were in. For this district, at least, Ossoff believed it was the only way he could possibly win.
    And maybe he was even right. All I am saying is that, just possibly, the Dems can find better strategies than the ones they have been using lately.

  472. Honestly, sapient, I’m endlessly on record as opposing McKinney’s and Marty’s decision to abstain, and praising, for example, David Frum’s decision to do the opposite. You know perfectly well I think Trump is a disaster, and Hillary would have been infinitely better for everyone, except possibly billionaires (athough maybe for them too – they live in the environment as well). Clearly, I think McKinney and Marty were badly wrong, and the chickens are still endlessly coming home to roost. What more do you want? Signs hung round their necks like in the Cultural Revolution?
    The piece in the Atlantic on Ossoff’s loss ends:
    Just as Handel aspired to be as generic a Republican as possible, Ossoff hoped to be, as much as possible, a blank slate, a nice young man in whom disgruntled voters of all stripes could see the alternative they wanted. His campaign slogan proclaimed him “Humble. Kind. Ready to Fight”—a positionless vessel of 2017’s cross-cutting political angst. It was a decision many would second-guess after the results were in. For this district, at least, Ossoff believed it was the only way he could possibly win.
    And maybe he was even right. All I am saying is that, just possibly, the Dems can find better strategies than the ones they have been using lately.

  473. What more do you want? Signs hung round their necks like in the Cultural Revolution?
    This is a bit unfair.
    I am asking you, if Marty and McKinney represent “reluctant Trumpists” (in fact, they deny being for Trump at all), but wouldn’t have voted for Hillary, how you would persuade them. Because it’s exactly people like them who we are talking about here.

  474. What more do you want? Signs hung round their necks like in the Cultural Revolution?
    This is a bit unfair.
    I am asking you, if Marty and McKinney represent “reluctant Trumpists” (in fact, they deny being for Trump at all), but wouldn’t have voted for Hillary, how you would persuade them. Because it’s exactly people like them who we are talking about here.

  475. No sapient, they do not represent reluctant Trumpists. They did not vote for Trump, and said they could not vote for HRC because of various things they held against her, which grounds as you know I thought monumentally misguided. I can’t remember what they said about another putative Dem candidate, but my impression, perhaps wrong, was that another Dem candidate (e.g.Kerry?) might have been more acceptable. But they both identify as Republicans, or conservatives, whereas the people the Dems should be trying to reach presumably do not always so identify.

  476. No sapient, they do not represent reluctant Trumpists. They did not vote for Trump, and said they could not vote for HRC because of various things they held against her, which grounds as you know I thought monumentally misguided. I can’t remember what they said about another putative Dem candidate, but my impression, perhaps wrong, was that another Dem candidate (e.g.Kerry?) might have been more acceptable. But they both identify as Republicans, or conservatives, whereas the people the Dems should be trying to reach presumably do not always so identify.

  477. The idea is to pull people away from Fox, by giving them what they go there for
    Who knows, maybe it would work.
    just possibly, the Dems can find better strategies than the ones they have been using lately.
    Were I a (D) strategist, my advice would be for all candidates to be up in everyone’s grill, loudly, every single freaking day, about economic stuff.
    You are getting screwed. Here is how. Lather rinse and repeat, loudly, a hundred times a day. TV radio social media print media, everywhere.
    You don’t have to go “beyond identity politics” to do that. You do have to make it clear to folks that their future, and the future of the folks that other people are trying to get them to hate, are bound together. And, that they will only benefit by understanding and embracing that.
    That would be my strategy.
    The nice guy thing has no legs as a tactic. Don’t make it personal, but make it extremely loud. You Are Being Screwed. 24/7, via every available channel.
    If Trump, a billionaire crook who craps in a gold-plated toilet, can make that pitch, anybody on the freaking planet can. Everyone knows they’re getting screwed, they’re just unclear on the causes.
    This is Warren’s thing, BTW, and Bernie’s too. It’s not like nobody has figured this out. There’s just a lot of money pushing back in the other direction.

  478. The idea is to pull people away from Fox, by giving them what they go there for
    Who knows, maybe it would work.
    just possibly, the Dems can find better strategies than the ones they have been using lately.
    Were I a (D) strategist, my advice would be for all candidates to be up in everyone’s grill, loudly, every single freaking day, about economic stuff.
    You are getting screwed. Here is how. Lather rinse and repeat, loudly, a hundred times a day. TV radio social media print media, everywhere.
    You don’t have to go “beyond identity politics” to do that. You do have to make it clear to folks that their future, and the future of the folks that other people are trying to get them to hate, are bound together. And, that they will only benefit by understanding and embracing that.
    That would be my strategy.
    The nice guy thing has no legs as a tactic. Don’t make it personal, but make it extremely loud. You Are Being Screwed. 24/7, via every available channel.
    If Trump, a billionaire crook who craps in a gold-plated toilet, can make that pitch, anybody on the freaking planet can. Everyone knows they’re getting screwed, they’re just unclear on the causes.
    This is Warren’s thing, BTW, and Bernie’s too. It’s not like nobody has figured this out. There’s just a lot of money pushing back in the other direction.

  479. I am asking you, if Marty and McKinney represent “reluctant Trumpists” (in fact, they deny being for Trump at all), but wouldn’t have voted for Hillary, how you would persuade them. Because it’s exactly people like them who we are talking about here.
    Perhaps it needs to be more negative. With some people, the best you can expect to convince them to do is stay home and not vote for the other candidate (or anyone at all, really).
    Lower the opposition’s numbers if you can’t manage to raise yours.

  480. I am asking you, if Marty and McKinney represent “reluctant Trumpists” (in fact, they deny being for Trump at all), but wouldn’t have voted for Hillary, how you would persuade them. Because it’s exactly people like them who we are talking about here.
    Perhaps it needs to be more negative. With some people, the best you can expect to convince them to do is stay home and not vote for the other candidate (or anyone at all, really).
    Lower the opposition’s numbers if you can’t manage to raise yours.

  481. some don’t think the Dems should bother with reluctant Trumpists.

    The lesson of the special elections around the country is clear: Democratic House candidates can dramatically outperform Clinton in deep red rural areas by running ideological, populist campaigns rooted in progressive areas. Poorer working class voters who pulled the lever for Trump can be swayed back to the left in surprisingly large numbers—perhaps not enough to win in places like Kansas, Montana and South Carolina, but certainly in other more welcoming climes. Nor is there a need to subvert Democratic principles of social justice in order to accomplish this: none of the Democrats who overperformed Clinton’s numbers in these districts curried favor with bigots in order to accomplish it.
    But candidates like Clinton and Ossoff who try to run inoffensive and anti-ideological campaigns in an attempt to win over supposedly sensible, wealthier, bourgeois suburban David-Brooks-reading Republican Romney voters will find that they lose by surprisingly wide margins. There is no Democrat so seemingly non-partisan that Romney Republicans will be tempted to cross the aisle in enough numbers to make a difference.

  482. some don’t think the Dems should bother with reluctant Trumpists.

    The lesson of the special elections around the country is clear: Democratic House candidates can dramatically outperform Clinton in deep red rural areas by running ideological, populist campaigns rooted in progressive areas. Poorer working class voters who pulled the lever for Trump can be swayed back to the left in surprisingly large numbers—perhaps not enough to win in places like Kansas, Montana and South Carolina, but certainly in other more welcoming climes. Nor is there a need to subvert Democratic principles of social justice in order to accomplish this: none of the Democrats who overperformed Clinton’s numbers in these districts curried favor with bigots in order to accomplish it.
    But candidates like Clinton and Ossoff who try to run inoffensive and anti-ideological campaigns in an attempt to win over supposedly sensible, wealthier, bourgeois suburban David-Brooks-reading Republican Romney voters will find that they lose by surprisingly wide margins. There is no Democrat so seemingly non-partisan that Romney Republicans will be tempted to cross the aisle in enough numbers to make a difference.

  483. But they both identify as Republicans, or conservatives, whereas the people the Dems should be trying to reach presumably do not always so identify.
    Handel won by less than 5 percentage points. Tom Price had, just prior, won by 23. Ossoff did really well at persuading people who could be persuaded.
    Consider too the role that voter suppression may have played. Just a thought.
    Your characterization of McKinney and Marty is confusing, to say the least. They didn’t vote for Trump, yet they are less persuadable than people who you think Democrats can reach? The Tom Price district is deeply red. That means that Republicans live there.

  484. But they both identify as Republicans, or conservatives, whereas the people the Dems should be trying to reach presumably do not always so identify.
    Handel won by less than 5 percentage points. Tom Price had, just prior, won by 23. Ossoff did really well at persuading people who could be persuaded.
    Consider too the role that voter suppression may have played. Just a thought.
    Your characterization of McKinney and Marty is confusing, to say the least. They didn’t vote for Trump, yet they are less persuadable than people who you think Democrats can reach? The Tom Price district is deeply red. That means that Republicans live there.

  485. What is it that these white, working-class men want that the Democrats aren’t offering them? That’s easy, they want well-paid jobs. Well, in 2016, the median weekly wage for an adult male high-school graduate, with no college education, was $751, which comes to $39k a year. To earn more than that, your income has to be in the top 0.3% globally.
    There’s only one way a politician can promise to do better than that, and that’s by lying. Trump claims to be able to do it by tearing up trade treaties, imposing tariff barriers, and beating up the EPA. He’s lying. Foxconn jobs paying less than $100 a week are not going to be replaced by jobs in the USA paying $800 a week plus healthcare benefits, not until US consumers are willing to pay ten times as much for an iPhone. Coal mining jobs are not coming back unless fracking is banned and automation of mining is banned. None of these things is going to happen. And nor should they – the US would not prosper as an autarky with a ruined environment.
    Democrats should not try to win votes by competing with Republicans to tell lies.

  486. What is it that these white, working-class men want that the Democrats aren’t offering them? That’s easy, they want well-paid jobs. Well, in 2016, the median weekly wage for an adult male high-school graduate, with no college education, was $751, which comes to $39k a year. To earn more than that, your income has to be in the top 0.3% globally.
    There’s only one way a politician can promise to do better than that, and that’s by lying. Trump claims to be able to do it by tearing up trade treaties, imposing tariff barriers, and beating up the EPA. He’s lying. Foxconn jobs paying less than $100 a week are not going to be replaced by jobs in the USA paying $800 a week plus healthcare benefits, not until US consumers are willing to pay ten times as much for an iPhone. Coal mining jobs are not coming back unless fracking is banned and automation of mining is banned. None of these things is going to happen. And nor should they – the US would not prosper as an autarky with a ruined environment.
    Democrats should not try to win votes by competing with Republicans to tell lies.

  487. Ossoff did well to come as close as he did, and there may indeed have been significant voter suppression. I’m still hoping for significant gains in the midterms, but I am anxious that the Dem leadership may not have its act together, despite the wonderful work being done by Indivisible et al. I like russell’s suggestion at 3.05, and if the Dems committed to do that it might be enough, or there may be additional wrinkles that would help. I just hope to God that they come up with a proper strategy, and if their current leadership can’t do it, I hope they find leaders who can.
    As for Marty and McKinney, sapient, my Cultural Revolution suggestion was in response to your
    Like McKinney and Marty? Again, I know people don’t like to actually hold people here to their views….
    I don’t know why you find my characterisation of them confusing. They didn’t vote for Trump, and in fact despised him. They hated and distrusted HRC. Whether either or both of them would have voted for another Dem is unknown. They both identify as conservative and rightwing, if not Republican, and because of this perhaps they would have been hard to persuade. There are plenty of people who voted for Trump partly out of hatred for HRC, but might be persuaded to vote for a Dem who does not carry her baggage and, moreover, gives them the impression that they are of equal importance as any other demographic group. The Dems will have to find a convincing way to convey this message. Maybe russell’s suggestion can do it (say a Warren run) or maybe it would take something else. I’m hoping for the best, but fearing the worst.

  488. Ossoff did well to come as close as he did, and there may indeed have been significant voter suppression. I’m still hoping for significant gains in the midterms, but I am anxious that the Dem leadership may not have its act together, despite the wonderful work being done by Indivisible et al. I like russell’s suggestion at 3.05, and if the Dems committed to do that it might be enough, or there may be additional wrinkles that would help. I just hope to God that they come up with a proper strategy, and if their current leadership can’t do it, I hope they find leaders who can.
    As for Marty and McKinney, sapient, my Cultural Revolution suggestion was in response to your
    Like McKinney and Marty? Again, I know people don’t like to actually hold people here to their views….
    I don’t know why you find my characterisation of them confusing. They didn’t vote for Trump, and in fact despised him. They hated and distrusted HRC. Whether either or both of them would have voted for another Dem is unknown. They both identify as conservative and rightwing, if not Republican, and because of this perhaps they would have been hard to persuade. There are plenty of people who voted for Trump partly out of hatred for HRC, but might be persuaded to vote for a Dem who does not carry her baggage and, moreover, gives them the impression that they are of equal importance as any other demographic group. The Dems will have to find a convincing way to convey this message. Maybe russell’s suggestion can do it (say a Warren run) or maybe it would take something else. I’m hoping for the best, but fearing the worst.

  489. Whether either or both of them would have voted for another Dem is unknown.
    Hmmm.

    Could you be more specific?

  490. Whether either or both of them would have voted for another Dem is unknown.
    Hmmm.

    Could you be more specific?

  491. Democrats should not try to win votes by competing with Republicans to tell lies.
    I fully agree with this. There is a temptation to do this when trying to appeal to single payer advocates, trade detractors and various other constituents.

  492. Democrats should not try to win votes by competing with Republicans to tell lies.
    I fully agree with this. There is a temptation to do this when trying to appeal to single payer advocates, trade detractors and various other constituents.

  493. I am anxious that the Dem leadership may not have its act together, despite the wonderful work being done by Indivisible et al.
    Sorry, I meant to quote you here, GftNC, when I asked if you could be more specific.

  494. I am anxious that the Dem leadership may not have its act together, despite the wonderful work being done by Indivisible et al.
    Sorry, I meant to quote you here, GftNC, when I asked if you could be more specific.

  495. How do you mean? I don’t know if either or both of them would have voted Democrat if the nominee against Trump had been anyone other than HRC. Do you?

  496. How do you mean? I don’t know if either or both of them would have voted Democrat if the nominee against Trump had been anyone other than HRC. Do you?

  497. I don’t know if either or both of them would have voted Democrat if the nominee against Trump had been anyone other than HRC. Do you?
    It would be silly for me to say yes, wouldn’t it? Even sillier to claim that I couldn’t make a very good guess. McKinney would have been unlikely to vote for anyone pro-choice who supported the ACA, and wasn’t a “tax cut” proponent. Marty opposes the ACA and “really wants that tax cut”. Democrats aren’t the party of anti-choice, anti-healthcare, plus tax cuts.

  498. I don’t know if either or both of them would have voted Democrat if the nominee against Trump had been anyone other than HRC. Do you?
    It would be silly for me to say yes, wouldn’t it? Even sillier to claim that I couldn’t make a very good guess. McKinney would have been unlikely to vote for anyone pro-choice who supported the ACA, and wasn’t a “tax cut” proponent. Marty opposes the ACA and “really wants that tax cut”. Democrats aren’t the party of anti-choice, anti-healthcare, plus tax cuts.

  499. That’s easy, they want well-paid jobs.
    Yes, I think that is correct. And I think your general analysis is correct.
    The economy of the 50’s -> 70’s is not coming back. If that’s the America that is going to be Great Again, it ain’t happening.
    And whatever the 21 C equivalent is going to be, it is not going to be something that anyone is going to deliver from on high. Folks are going to have to work for it.
    “Well you can always get a job at the factory” may never be an available option again. I’m sure there will be options for people, and in fact there are now, they just might not be that much of a given.
    They didn’t vote for Trump, and in fact despised him.
    McK yes, Marty no.

  500. That’s easy, they want well-paid jobs.
    Yes, I think that is correct. And I think your general analysis is correct.
    The economy of the 50’s -> 70’s is not coming back. If that’s the America that is going to be Great Again, it ain’t happening.
    And whatever the 21 C equivalent is going to be, it is not going to be something that anyone is going to deliver from on high. Folks are going to have to work for it.
    “Well you can always get a job at the factory” may never be an available option again. I’m sure there will be options for people, and in fact there are now, they just might not be that much of a given.
    They didn’t vote for Trump, and in fact despised him.
    McK yes, Marty no.

  501. Ah sapient, we crossed. That makes more sense. I’ve been hearing complaints from Dems about Pelosi for years, and here we go again:
    http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/21/politics/republicans-nancy-pelosi-georgia/index.html
    McK yes, Marty no.
    russell, I think Marty said almost exactly this. He has been tending to defend Trump since the inauguration (although not consistently), probably in a manifestation of cleek’s law, but during the campaign I would put money on that quote being exactly his view.

  502. Ah sapient, we crossed. That makes more sense. I’ve been hearing complaints from Dems about Pelosi for years, and here we go again:
    http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/21/politics/republicans-nancy-pelosi-georgia/index.html
    McK yes, Marty no.
    russell, I think Marty said almost exactly this. He has been tending to defend Trump since the inauguration (although not consistently), probably in a manifestation of cleek’s law, but during the campaign I would put money on that quote being exactly his view.

  503. I’ve been hearing complaints from Dems about Pelosi for years
    First, how do you spell m-i-s-o-g-y-n-y?
    Second.
    Nancy Pelosi is an extremely effective House leader, but she’s a [n old] woman, from California. That don’t sit well with the Bernie bros.

  504. I’ve been hearing complaints from Dems about Pelosi for years
    First, how do you spell m-i-s-o-g-y-n-y?
    Second.
    Nancy Pelosi is an extremely effective House leader, but she’s a [n old] woman, from California. That don’t sit well with the Bernie bros.

  505. during the campaign I would put money on that quote being exactly his view.
    He’s had quite a lot to say since then.

  506. during the campaign I would put money on that quote being exactly his view.
    He’s had quite a lot to say since then.

  507. Nancy Pelosi is an extremely effective House leader, but she’s a [n old] woman, from California. That don’t sit well with the Bernie bros.
    The people criticising her (and Harry Reid) to me years ago were definitely not Bernie bros. But certainly, whatever one thinks of her, as your link suggests, the absence of convincing successors is disturbing, and worthy of concern for the future.
    He’s had quite a lot to say since then.
    He has indeed, and it’s been a bit startling, given what I remember of his statements before the election.

  508. Nancy Pelosi is an extremely effective House leader, but she’s a [n old] woman, from California. That don’t sit well with the Bernie bros.
    The people criticising her (and Harry Reid) to me years ago were definitely not Bernie bros. But certainly, whatever one thinks of her, as your link suggests, the absence of convincing successors is disturbing, and worthy of concern for the future.
    He’s had quite a lot to say since then.
    He has indeed, and it’s been a bit startling, given what I remember of his statements before the election.

  509. You’re right that it’s not just Bernie people who have criticized Nancy Pelosi, GftNC, but I’ve never heard a substantive criticism that made much sense to me. I don’t think that the criticism is legitimate, and if you have an example of something specific your friends have thought, I’d love to know what it was.
    One criticism that I believe that was bandied about was that the ACA shouldn’t have been such a high priority. I hugely disagree with that, for example. The “never even tried” folks also may have had some things to say.

  510. You’re right that it’s not just Bernie people who have criticized Nancy Pelosi, GftNC, but I’ve never heard a substantive criticism that made much sense to me. I don’t think that the criticism is legitimate, and if you have an example of something specific your friends have thought, I’d love to know what it was.
    One criticism that I believe that was bandied about was that the ACA shouldn’t have been such a high priority. I hugely disagree with that, for example. The “never even tried” folks also may have had some things to say.

  511. there is nothing startling about Marty’s comments about Trump, the point of view he expresses is extremely common.
    it’s a weird, weird time. it’s probably been weirder, but not in my adult life.

  512. there is nothing startling about Marty’s comments about Trump, the point of view he expresses is extremely common.
    it’s a weird, weird time. it’s probably been weirder, but not in my adult life.

  513. Well sapient, we certainly agree about the prioritisation of the ACA. And in truth, I can’t remember what my friends’ criticisms of Pelosi consisted of, because then (and to some extent now) I feel very uncertain myself of the exact mechanisms that these various leaders operate, and how they do it well, or badly. So it’s hearsay, and on my part, ill-informed hearsay. But my unease about it has been increased by recent reports that there are attempts to oust her. And it makes me anxious for the future – it was unbelievable enough that Trump won, but that so many people still support him really puts the wind up. It would be great to assume that the midterms will see a great reverse, and the 2020 election will cap it, but just as I was super-anxious before the election in November, I am 10 times more anxious now. And now I’m off for the night, so goodnight to all.

  514. Well sapient, we certainly agree about the prioritisation of the ACA. And in truth, I can’t remember what my friends’ criticisms of Pelosi consisted of, because then (and to some extent now) I feel very uncertain myself of the exact mechanisms that these various leaders operate, and how they do it well, or badly. So it’s hearsay, and on my part, ill-informed hearsay. But my unease about it has been increased by recent reports that there are attempts to oust her. And it makes me anxious for the future – it was unbelievable enough that Trump won, but that so many people still support him really puts the wind up. It would be great to assume that the midterms will see a great reverse, and the 2020 election will cap it, but just as I was super-anxious before the election in November, I am 10 times more anxious now. And now I’m off for the night, so goodnight to all.

  515. there is nothing startling about Marty’s comments about Trump, the point of view he expresses is extremely common.
    I meant startling in the context of his anti-Trump rhetoric before the election.

  516. there is nothing startling about Marty’s comments about Trump, the point of view he expresses is extremely common.
    I meant startling in the context of his anti-Trump rhetoric before the election.

  517. I meant startling in the context of his anti-Trump rhetoric before the election.
    Same/same.
    Lots of folks spent the campaign season talking about what a disaster Trump was / would be, and now basically shrug and roll their eyes.
    We don’t have the whole vote of confidence thing, if they can’t find anything explicitly illegal or unconstitutional in his actions, he’s there until 2020. Even if they do, the House has to decide to impeach him – they aren’t required to do so, as far as I know.
    A lot of folks figure if you gotta live with it, might as well just get on with it. I more or less think that myself, I just don’t give him a pass.

  518. I meant startling in the context of his anti-Trump rhetoric before the election.
    Same/same.
    Lots of folks spent the campaign season talking about what a disaster Trump was / would be, and now basically shrug and roll their eyes.
    We don’t have the whole vote of confidence thing, if they can’t find anything explicitly illegal or unconstitutional in his actions, he’s there until 2020. Even if they do, the House has to decide to impeach him – they aren’t required to do so, as far as I know.
    A lot of folks figure if you gotta live with it, might as well just get on with it. I more or less think that myself, I just don’t give him a pass.

  521. I am 10 times more anxious now
    I’m beyond anxious, and into despair territory. As to blaming Democratic leaders, the best thing Democrats can do is quit blaming Democrats, and start blaming Republicans.
    But that’s what I always say, isn’t it? We just need to keep trying to make sure that people vote, and that their votes count. I’m increasingly pessimistic about that as well.

  522. I am 10 times more anxious now
    I’m beyond anxious, and into despair territory. As to blaming Democratic leaders, the best thing Democrats can do is quit blaming Democrats, and start blaming Republicans.
    But that’s what I always say, isn’t it? We just need to keep trying to make sure that people vote, and that their votes count. I’m increasingly pessimistic about that as well.

  523. Making America Great Again
    There isn’t a damned thing somebody like me is going to say to folks who voted for Trump that is going to persuade them that Trump is anything other than god’s gift to the working man.
    It’s gonna take a lot of people getting laid off, losing their insurance, losing their homes, losing their health, losing the lives in some case.
    Losing, losing, losing, losing, losing.

    He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.

    Or, the awful grace of something. Maybe the FSM.
    I really don’t have much of anything constructive to say about it all. A lot of people felt they’d been screwed over, and that DC had left them behind.
    There was some basis for that feeling.
    They thought a fraudulent serial bankrupt billionaire crook would lead them out of the wilderness. Their guy won, and there is damned little we can do about it, short of shredding 240 years of constitutional and legal precedent.
    Unfortunately, our system of government has no ready remedy for acts of profound national folly.
    I don’t know where it ends up. I don’t think anybody does. I’m pretty sure the republic will endure, more or less, I just don’t know what happens to all of the people who thought Trump was gonna save them. Nor do I know what happens to the rest of us.
    Basically, it’s f****d up, for the foreseeable future. What happens next depends on what’s left when we get to the other side of it all.
    Here we go!

  524. Making America Great Again
    There isn’t a damned thing somebody like me is going to say to folks who voted for Trump that is going to persuade them that Trump is anything other than god’s gift to the working man.
    It’s gonna take a lot of people getting laid off, losing their insurance, losing their homes, losing their health, losing the lives in some case.
    Losing, losing, losing, losing, losing.

    He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.

    Or, the awful grace of something. Maybe the FSM.
    I really don’t have much of anything constructive to say about it all. A lot of people felt they’d been screwed over, and that DC had left them behind.
    There was some basis for that feeling.
    They thought a fraudulent serial bankrupt billionaire crook would lead them out of the wilderness. Their guy won, and there is damned little we can do about it, short of shredding 240 years of constitutional and legal precedent.
    Unfortunately, our system of government has no ready remedy for acts of profound national folly.
    I don’t know where it ends up. I don’t think anybody does. I’m pretty sure the republic will endure, more or less, I just don’t know what happens to all of the people who thought Trump was gonna save them. Nor do I know what happens to the rest of us.
    Basically, it’s f****d up, for the foreseeable future. What happens next depends on what’s left when we get to the other side of it all.
    Here we go!

  525. You know your life is really messed up if you’re expecting a politician/policial leader to save you. Your best hope is that they can’t.

  526. You know your life is really messed up if you’re expecting a politician/policial leader to save you. Your best hope is that they can’t.

  529. Maybe you can tell me what the (D)’s should say that they aren’t already saying, if they want to win over all the folks who just couldn’t bring themselves to vote for Hilary.
    THIS. THIS. THIS. Lille never says. Those who promote this concern trolling never say. What shoud the ads say? What should the message be?
    All they tell us is, “You shouldn’t have done X”.
    Well OK. So just what the fuck should we say?
    Don’t just carp. Contribute. Please. It is important.

  530. Maybe you can tell me what the (D)’s should say that they aren’t already saying, if they want to win over all the folks who just couldn’t bring themselves to vote for Hilary.
    THIS. THIS. THIS. Lille never says. Those who promote this concern trolling never say. What shoud the ads say? What should the message be?
    All they tell us is, “You shouldn’t have done X”.
    Well OK. So just what the fuck should we say?
    Don’t just carp. Contribute. Please. It is important.

  531. GFNC “And maybe he was even right. All I am saying is that, just possibly, the Dems can find better strategies than the ones they have been using lately.”
    Don’t hold back. Tell us what that message should be. That is the rub. Ossoff, pushed an almost austerity fiscal program. To me, that is a stupid dead loser, but whatever. BUT IT LOST. Should he have condemned Planned Parenthood? Just how many additional votes would this have garnered him?
    I would argue virtually none.
    There you go.

  532. GFNC “And maybe he was even right. All I am saying is that, just possibly, the Dems can find better strategies than the ones they have been using lately.”
    Don’t hold back. Tell us what that message should be. That is the rub. Ossoff, pushed an almost austerity fiscal program. To me, that is a stupid dead loser, but whatever. BUT IT LOST. Should he have condemned Planned Parenthood? Just how many additional votes would this have garnered him?
    I would argue virtually none.
    There you go.

  533. GFNC “Whether either or both of them (McKinney, Marty, ed.) would have voted for another Dem is unknown.”
    It is absolutely known. There is no ‘effing way either of them would have pulled the lever for ANY DEMOCRATIC PARTY CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
    Having seen their remarks for years, this is a dead certain conclusion. Both of them are ideologically opposed to the basic political message of the New Deal.
    QED.

  534. GFNC “Whether either or both of them (McKinney, Marty, ed.) would have voted for another Dem is unknown.”
    It is absolutely known. There is no ‘effing way either of them would have pulled the lever for ANY DEMOCRATIC PARTY CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
    Having seen their remarks for years, this is a dead certain conclusion. Both of them are ideologically opposed to the basic political message of the New Deal.
    QED.

  535. Having seen their remarks for years, this is a dead certain conclusion. Both of them are ideologically opposed to the basic political message of the New Deal.
    Thanks. This needs to be acknowledged.

  536. Having seen their remarks for years, this is a dead certain conclusion. Both of them are ideologically opposed to the basic political message of the New Deal.
    Thanks. This needs to be acknowledged.

  537. I say lay it out like Trump did.
    You’re getting screwed. Each and every day, you’re getting screwed.
    Then lay the blame where it belongs. Not on the Mexicans, not on the Muslims, not on the blacks, not on the gays. Those folks aren’t hurting anybody.
    Lay it on the greedy SOBs who have millions and billions, and it’s not enough for them. They want their share and more than their share, presed down shaken together and spilling over. And then they want yours, too.
    They want it all.
    If people want populist demagoguery, if that is what they are going to respond to, let ’em have it. It’s fine with me, it’s actually a pretty accurate story.
    Because they actually are getting screwed.

  538. I say lay it out like Trump did.
    You’re getting screwed. Each and every day, you’re getting screwed.
    Then lay the blame where it belongs. Not on the Mexicans, not on the Muslims, not on the blacks, not on the gays. Those folks aren’t hurting anybody.
    Lay it on the greedy SOBs who have millions and billions, and it’s not enough for them. They want their share and more than their share, presed down shaken together and spilling over. And then they want yours, too.
    They want it all.
    If people want populist demagoguery, if that is what they are going to respond to, let ’em have it. It’s fine with me, it’s actually a pretty accurate story.
    Because they actually are getting screwed.

  539. Lay it on the greedy SOBs who have millions and billions, and it’s not enough for them. They want their share and more than their share, presed down shaken together and spilling over. And then they want yours, too.
    I blame people who support these policies. I’m not on board with fomenting hatred toward the wealthy. (For the record, I am not wealthy.) Many wealthy people advocate taxing the rich (see, e.g., famously, Warren Buffett, and numerous wealthy Democratic politicians).
    A lot of German anti-Semitism grew out of vilifying wealthy bankers, etc.; same with Soviet anti-wealth rhetoric. Pointing fingers at people based on their circumstance is dangerous.
    Let’s blame people who actively support the policies that we disagree with. There are plenty of wealthy people who support the cruel crap that’s happening, and plenty of less wealthy people who do so as well. The opposite is also true. Narrowing income inequality is a worthy goal, and we should work on that, but class warfare ends badly.
    Lay it on Peter Thiel. Lay it on that guy rolling coal. Make people own their political preferences.

  540. Lay it on the greedy SOBs who have millions and billions, and it’s not enough for them. They want their share and more than their share, presed down shaken together and spilling over. And then they want yours, too.
    I blame people who support these policies. I’m not on board with fomenting hatred toward the wealthy. (For the record, I am not wealthy.) Many wealthy people advocate taxing the rich (see, e.g., famously, Warren Buffett, and numerous wealthy Democratic politicians).
    A lot of German anti-Semitism grew out of vilifying wealthy bankers, etc.; same with Soviet anti-wealth rhetoric. Pointing fingers at people based on their circumstance is dangerous.
    Let’s blame people who actively support the policies that we disagree with. There are plenty of wealthy people who support the cruel crap that’s happening, and plenty of less wealthy people who do so as well. The opposite is also true. Narrowing income inequality is a worthy goal, and we should work on that, but class warfare ends badly.
    Lay it on Peter Thiel. Lay it on that guy rolling coal. Make people own their political preferences.

  541. Narrowing income inequality is a worthy goal, and we should work on that, but class warfare ends badly.
    Unfourtanally for your efforts, the Pareto principle will fight you every step of the way.

  542. Narrowing income inequality is a worthy goal, and we should work on that, but class warfare ends badly.
    Unfourtanally for your efforts, the Pareto principle will fight you every step of the way.

  543. You do know, CharlesWT, that the Pareto principle has some loopholes. For example, wealth itself is subjective. Do we measure it with cash, or land, or comfort, or health? Beauty?
    That’s why class warfare isn’t wise.

  544. You do know, CharlesWT, that the Pareto principle has some loopholes. For example, wealth itself is subjective. Do we measure it with cash, or land, or comfort, or health? Beauty?
    That’s why class warfare isn’t wise.

  545. I’m not on board with fomenting hatred toward the wealthy.
    that’s a really good point.
    suffice it to say that, without peronalizing it or demonizing anyone, our laws and public institutions have evolved to where they prefer the interests of capital. harmfully so.
    and that is enormously relevant to the complaints of the folks we keep hearing about – the put-upon working class, and especially the white working class.
    if your place of business is closing down and leaving you with few options, it’s not very likely due to gays, or blacks, or muslims, or even the dreaded illegals. it probably doesn’t have much to do with uppity coastal elitists, or even some intrusive burdensome regulatory regime.
    as far as the folks rolling coal, it just doesn’t keep me up at night. that’s just some boyos flipping you and me the bird. there are bigger fish to fry.

  546. I’m not on board with fomenting hatred toward the wealthy.
    that’s a really good point.
    suffice it to say that, without peronalizing it or demonizing anyone, our laws and public institutions have evolved to where they prefer the interests of capital. harmfully so.
    and that is enormously relevant to the complaints of the folks we keep hearing about – the put-upon working class, and especially the white working class.
    if your place of business is closing down and leaving you with few options, it’s not very likely due to gays, or blacks, or muslims, or even the dreaded illegals. it probably doesn’t have much to do with uppity coastal elitists, or even some intrusive burdensome regulatory regime.
    as far as the folks rolling coal, it just doesn’t keep me up at night. that’s just some boyos flipping you and me the bird. there are bigger fish to fry.

  547. It’s gonna take a lot of people getting laid off, losing their insurance, losing their homes, losing their health, losing the lives in some case.
    Sometimes, for learning to take place, it is first necessary to get the student’s attention. Which, in some cases, requires the (metaphorical, or even literal) equivalent of a smack with a 2×4 up side the head. Harsh, but with some people, that’s just the reality. And this looks to be one of those cases.

  548. It’s gonna take a lot of people getting laid off, losing their insurance, losing their homes, losing their health, losing the lives in some case.
    Sometimes, for learning to take place, it is first necessary to get the student’s attention. Which, in some cases, requires the (metaphorical, or even literal) equivalent of a smack with a 2×4 up side the head. Harsh, but with some people, that’s just the reality. And this looks to be one of those cases.

  549. sapient: Let’s blame people who actively support the policies that we disagree with. There are plenty of wealthy people who support the cruel crap that’s happening, and plenty of less wealthy people who do so as well. The opposite is also true. Narrowing income inequality is a worthy goal, and we should work on that, but class warfare ends badly.
    It’s been ages since I agreed with something you said quite so much.
    I think that there are people who got rich because they did something valuable, loved doing it, and just kept at it. Buffett being one example. They aren’t invested in being wealthy. Their interest is in something else, which resulted in them getting wealthy.
    There are others who are driven by a need to be successful (or, in far more cases than just Trump, approved and accepted), and to have others see them as successful. For them, wealth is the only measure of success they can imagine, and no amount of success is ever enough. (Note that it doesn’t even have to be absolute wealth. Being wealthier than those around them, even if poorer than those elsewhere, is a big part of what their self-image requires. Big fish; small pond — but it matters to them.)
    Those are the guys who keep trying to grab more and more of the pie. Because the concept of “enough” is outside their conception.

  550. sapient: Let’s blame people who actively support the policies that we disagree with. There are plenty of wealthy people who support the cruel crap that’s happening, and plenty of less wealthy people who do so as well. The opposite is also true. Narrowing income inequality is a worthy goal, and we should work on that, but class warfare ends badly.
    It’s been ages since I agreed with something you said quite so much.
    I think that there are people who got rich because they did something valuable, loved doing it, and just kept at it. Buffett being one example. They aren’t invested in being wealthy. Their interest is in something else, which resulted in them getting wealthy.
    There are others who are driven by a need to be successful (or, in far more cases than just Trump, approved and accepted), and to have others see them as successful. For them, wealth is the only measure of success they can imagine, and no amount of success is ever enough. (Note that it doesn’t even have to be absolute wealth. Being wealthier than those around them, even if poorer than those elsewhere, is a big part of what their self-image requires. Big fish; small pond — but it matters to them.)
    Those are the guys who keep trying to grab more and more of the pie. Because the concept of “enough” is outside their conception.

  551. as far as the folks rolling coal, it just doesn’t keep me up at night. that’s just some boyos flipping you and me the bird. there are bigger fish to fry.
    As everyone knows, I’m very easily trolled. I despise that stuff, just as I have a visceral reaction to Marty’s statement that he voted with his middle finger. I know, my bad. I should be “nice.” But I am offended.
    Which, in some cases, requires the (metaphorical, or even literal) equivalent of a smack with a 2×4 up side the head.
    Sadly, there’s going to be collective punishment. We, the people, are gonna get it.

  552. as far as the folks rolling coal, it just doesn’t keep me up at night. that’s just some boyos flipping you and me the bird. there are bigger fish to fry.
    As everyone knows, I’m very easily trolled. I despise that stuff, just as I have a visceral reaction to Marty’s statement that he voted with his middle finger. I know, my bad. I should be “nice.” But I am offended.
    Which, in some cases, requires the (metaphorical, or even literal) equivalent of a smack with a 2×4 up side the head.
    Sadly, there’s going to be collective punishment. We, the people, are gonna get it.

  553. For example, wealth itself is subjective.
    True.
    But, I prefer living in the country with the most billionaires. The US has about 540, more than twice as many as second-place China’s 250.

  554. For example, wealth itself is subjective.
    True.
    But, I prefer living in the country with the most billionaires. The US has about 540, more than twice as many as second-place China’s 250.

  555. I prefer living in the country with the most billionaires.
    i prefer living in the US too, but traveling in China is fun, and when I went to Vietnam, I kind of wanted to sit on little chairs, sip pho and eat banh mi’s for the rest of my life. So there’s that. You never know what you’ll fall in love with, or where that will land you vis a vis the 20%.

  556. I prefer living in the country with the most billionaires.
    i prefer living in the US too, but traveling in China is fun, and when I went to Vietnam, I kind of wanted to sit on little chairs, sip pho and eat banh mi’s for the rest of my life. So there’s that. You never know what you’ll fall in love with, or where that will land you vis a vis the 20%.

  557. Unfourtanally for your efforts, the Pareto principle will fight you every step of the way.
    The upper tail of income and wealth distributions is described by something like a Pareto distribution. But the coefficients are different in different countries and at different times. There’s nothing in the data to suggest we can’t change them if we want to. Piketty in particular has done a lot of work on the mechanisms.
    What’s more, pretty well every way there is to get seriously rich depends on government intervention.

  558. Unfourtanally for your efforts, the Pareto principle will fight you every step of the way.
    The upper tail of income and wealth distributions is described by something like a Pareto distribution. But the coefficients are different in different countries and at different times. There’s nothing in the data to suggest we can’t change them if we want to. Piketty in particular has done a lot of work on the mechanisms.
    What’s more, pretty well every way there is to get seriously rich depends on government intervention.

  559. What’s more, pretty well every way there is to get seriously rich depends on government intervention.
    That is only completely true to the extent that any economic activity is done within the context of laws and other government regulation. But “intervention” in the sense of “taking explicit action to support a particular company or industry to the detriment of others”? I think that is a serious overstatement.
    Not that government intervention has not happened is some cases. Maybe even as much as a majority of great fortunes. But that is far short of what you are saying.

  560. What’s more, pretty well every way there is to get seriously rich depends on government intervention.
    That is only completely true to the extent that any economic activity is done within the context of laws and other government regulation. But “intervention” in the sense of “taking explicit action to support a particular company or industry to the detriment of others”? I think that is a serious overstatement.
    Not that government intervention has not happened is some cases. Maybe even as much as a majority of great fortunes. But that is far short of what you are saying.

  561. In the sense of “taking action which supports a particular industry”.
    Abolish all patent and copyright laws. Then restore them only to the extent that they’re clearly beneficial in encouraging creativity.
    Abolish all government subsidies. Then restore them only to the extent that they’re clearly the best way to help people who need help.
    Remember what the financial system is for – to allocate capital – and restructure it completely so that’s that what it does.
    Change bankruptcy laws so that trade creditors get paid before bondholders. Reduce limited-liability protections so that the likes of Trump can’t “use the laws of this country to pare debt.”
    Tax inheritance as income of the inheritor, regardless of trust structures.
    That was bruising, but worth it. Now take another look at the distribution of income and wealth.

  562. In the sense of “taking action which supports a particular industry”.
    Abolish all patent and copyright laws. Then restore them only to the extent that they’re clearly beneficial in encouraging creativity.
    Abolish all government subsidies. Then restore them only to the extent that they’re clearly the best way to help people who need help.
    Remember what the financial system is for – to allocate capital – and restructure it completely so that’s that what it does.
    Change bankruptcy laws so that trade creditors get paid before bondholders. Reduce limited-liability protections so that the likes of Trump can’t “use the laws of this country to pare debt.”
    Tax inheritance as income of the inheritor, regardless of trust structures.
    That was bruising, but worth it. Now take another look at the distribution of income and wealth.

  563. There’s nothing in the data to suggest we can’t change them if we want to.
    People respond to incentives. Different policies can shift the values of the coefficients. But some people advocate for a wholesale restructuring of the distribution. Doing so can result in capital flight and failing economies. In time, the distribution will reassert itself. Venezuela might be an example of such a restructuring in progress.
    What’s more, pretty well every way there is to get seriously rich depends on government intervention.
    In most countries in most times. But most of the technology giants seem to have gotten to where they are with little or no direct government involvement. At least many of them were already seriously rich before drawing much attention to themselves. Microsoft didn’t pay much attention to the federal government and paid for it by being blindsided with an antitrust lawsuit. Now it has one of the most lavish lobbying offices in Washington.

  564. There’s nothing in the data to suggest we can’t change them if we want to.
    People respond to incentives. Different policies can shift the values of the coefficients. But some people advocate for a wholesale restructuring of the distribution. Doing so can result in capital flight and failing economies. In time, the distribution will reassert itself. Venezuela might be an example of such a restructuring in progress.
    What’s more, pretty well every way there is to get seriously rich depends on government intervention.
    In most countries in most times. But most of the technology giants seem to have gotten to where they are with little or no direct government involvement. At least many of them were already seriously rich before drawing much attention to themselves. Microsoft didn’t pay much attention to the federal government and paid for it by being blindsided with an antitrust lawsuit. Now it has one of the most lavish lobbying offices in Washington.

  565. Don’t hold back. Tell us what that message should be. That is the rub
    I don’t have the answer. I thought the loss to such an excrescence as Trump by a manifestly intelligent, capable, reasonable human being putting forth decent, humane policies was incomprehensible. But it happened. So (given Trump’s unpopularity stats) either it was the candidate, or the offering. The candidate was known to have a huge amount of baggage which disqualified her in the eyes of (a misguided) many. Lille is talking about problems in the offering. In my state of disbelief, and without a better prescription to offer, I am at least potentially open to some of what he says, but also hoping for more and better from others. I do not call this virtue signalling, or concern trolling, although you of course are free to do so. And, for the record, I am totally with sapient on his dislike and distrust of the fomenting of hatred of the rich. russell’s formulation:
    suffice it to say that, without peronalizing it or demonizing anyone, our laws and public institutions have evolved to where they prefer the interests of capital. harmfully so.
    seems about right to me.

  566. Don’t hold back. Tell us what that message should be. That is the rub
    I don’t have the answer. I thought the loss to such an excrescence as Trump by a manifestly intelligent, capable, reasonable human being putting forth decent, humane policies was incomprehensible. But it happened. So (given Trump’s unpopularity stats) either it was the candidate, or the offering. The candidate was known to have a huge amount of baggage which disqualified her in the eyes of (a misguided) many. Lille is talking about problems in the offering. In my state of disbelief, and without a better prescription to offer, I am at least potentially open to some of what he says, but also hoping for more and better from others. I do not call this virtue signalling, or concern trolling, although you of course are free to do so. And, for the record, I am totally with sapient on his dislike and distrust of the fomenting of hatred of the rich. russell’s formulation:
    suffice it to say that, without peronalizing it or demonizing anyone, our laws and public institutions have evolved to where they prefer the interests of capital. harmfully so.
    seems about right to me.

  569. I think the AHCA is only marginally different than the ACA,
    you think wrong.
    But the downsides are greatly exaggerated
    “are” is not a synonym for “have been by some”

  570. I think the AHCA is only marginally different than the ACA,
    you think wrong.
    But the downsides are greatly exaggerated
    “are” is not a synonym for “have been by some”

  573. But most of the technology giants seem to have gotten to where they are with little or no direct government involvement.
    Without patent law, Bill Gates would just be another schlub who likes to write software.
    If you do not believe patent and royalties law is a form of market intervention, I don’t know what to say to you.

  574. But most of the technology giants seem to have gotten to where they are with little or no direct government involvement.
    Without patent law, Bill Gates would just be another schlub who likes to write software.
    If you do not believe patent and royalties law is a form of market intervention, I don’t know what to say to you.

  575. I don’t have the answer. I thought the loss to such an excrescence as Trump by a manifestly intelligent, capable, reasonable human being putting forth decent, humane policies was incomprehensible.
    I don’t have the answer either. And I share your sense of shock. But that’s politics. Lille’s basic message to Democrats was, “Stop being political.” As a way forward (about which there is certainly a great deal of debate) I found it to be simply a non-starter.
    My apologies.

  576. I don’t have the answer. I thought the loss to such an excrescence as Trump by a manifestly intelligent, capable, reasonable human being putting forth decent, humane policies was incomprehensible.
    I don’t have the answer either. And I share your sense of shock. But that’s politics. Lille’s basic message to Democrats was, “Stop being political.” As a way forward (about which there is certainly a great deal of debate) I found it to be simply a non-starter.
    My apologies.

  577. That was bruising, but worth it. Now take another look at the distribution of income and wealth.
    Posted by: Pro Bono | June 23, 2017 at 05:41 AM
    Good post. +many….

  578. That was bruising, but worth it. Now take another look at the distribution of income and wealth.
    Posted by: Pro Bono | June 23, 2017 at 05:41 AM
    Good post. +many….

  579. Without patent law, Bill Gates would just be another schlub who likes to write software.
    Patent law is available to everyone. It’s not a direct to and just for Gates benefit.

  580. Without patent law, Bill Gates would just be another schlub who likes to write software.
    Patent law is available to everyone. It’s not a direct to and just for Gates benefit.

  583. yeah, but tax cuts !
    think of what a paradise we will have once we are freed from the slavery of taxation!

  584. yeah, but tax cuts !
    think of what a paradise we will have once we are freed from the slavery of taxation!

  585. think of what a paradise we will have once we are freed from the slavery of taxation!
    True! It is why no one tries to make money. Without the shackles of government, we can unleash the power of … hmmm, let’s see … oh! I know – mortgage-backed securities and the derivatives thereof! – without fear of our profits being reduced.

  586. think of what a paradise we will have once we are freed from the slavery of taxation!
    True! It is why no one tries to make money. Without the shackles of government, we can unleash the power of … hmmm, let’s see … oh! I know – mortgage-backed securities and the derivatives thereof! – without fear of our profits being reduced.

  589. If you do not believe patent and royalties law is a form of market intervention, I don’t know what to say to you.
    By the same token, the laws against theft are a form of market intervention.

  590. If you do not believe patent and royalties law is a form of market intervention, I don’t know what to say to you.
    By the same token, the laws against theft are a form of market intervention.

  591. We’re completely f’d, folks, because Repubicans are traitors.
    it’s deplorable just how willing, happy, eager to tolerate and defend everything that traitorous fncking scumbag in the White House does – just because he’s on their team.
    at least they’ve convinced me i never have to take their arguments about pretty much anything seriously again. (not that the soulless hypocrite McConnell wouldn’t have been enough to get me there)
    they can all shove their flags and pocket Constitutions right up their asses, as far as i’m concerned.

  592. We’re completely f’d, folks, because Repubicans are traitors.
    it’s deplorable just how willing, happy, eager to tolerate and defend everything that traitorous fncking scumbag in the White House does – just because he’s on their team.
    at least they’ve convinced me i never have to take their arguments about pretty much anything seriously again. (not that the soulless hypocrite McConnell wouldn’t have been enough to get me there)
    they can all shove their flags and pocket Constitutions right up their asses, as far as i’m concerned.

  593. it’s deplorable just how willing, happy, eager to tolerate and defend everything that traitorous fncking scumbag in the White House does – just because he’s on their team.
    The fact that this is all so well documented already, and so well-known, makes me even less patient with the argument that “Democrats need a new offering”. This is my offering: Reality speaks for itself.

  594. it’s deplorable just how willing, happy, eager to tolerate and defend everything that traitorous fncking scumbag in the White House does – just because he’s on their team.
    The fact that this is all so well documented already, and so well-known, makes me even less patient with the argument that “Democrats need a new offering”. This is my offering: Reality speaks for itself.

  595. The fact that this is all so well documented already, and so well-known, makes me even less patient with the argument that “Democrats need a new offering”. This is my offering: Reality speaks for itself.
    I sympathise, of course, but if this is your offering you had better get ready for the possibility, or even the likelihood, of losing again.

  596. The fact that this is all so well documented already, and so well-known, makes me even less patient with the argument that “Democrats need a new offering”. This is my offering: Reality speaks for itself.
    I sympathise, of course, but if this is your offering you had better get ready for the possibility, or even the likelihood, of losing again.

  597. Reality speaks for itself.
    Eventually, one would hope. So far, it doesn’t seem to be happening, at least not enough.

  598. Reality speaks for itself.
    Eventually, one would hope. So far, it doesn’t seem to be happening, at least not enough.

  599. But, I prefer living in the country with the most billionaires.
    First, in a country of ~330M people, 540 of anything is noise.
    Second, if I say that the interests of capital are given undue preference, I’m not primarily talking about the personal private wealth of stratospherically wealthy individuals. I’m talking about capital, which sort of has a life of its own.
    In any case, I wish there were a million billionaires, rather than 540. And I wish there were 50 million millionaires, rather than the 3 or 4% of the population that they currently represent.
    But what I’m mostly concerned about are the many many millions of people who are not even thousand-aires. There are millions of people in this country – working people, people with jobs – whose net worth is negative, and is going to be negative until the day they die.
    About 20% of the population participates in some means-tested federal program or other. Medicaid, SNAP, housing assistance. One in five people. That’s excluding Medicare and Social Security.
    I really don’t care how many billionaires there are. I care how many people are unable to achieve a basic level of financial security.
    This isn’t the third world, this country is really, really rich. Filthy stinking rich. There is no excuse for the degree of poverty and financial distress that is normal here.

  600. But, I prefer living in the country with the most billionaires.
    First, in a country of ~330M people, 540 of anything is noise.
    Second, if I say that the interests of capital are given undue preference, I’m not primarily talking about the personal private wealth of stratospherically wealthy individuals. I’m talking about capital, which sort of has a life of its own.
    In any case, I wish there were a million billionaires, rather than 540. And I wish there were 50 million millionaires, rather than the 3 or 4% of the population that they currently represent.
    But what I’m mostly concerned about are the many many millions of people who are not even thousand-aires. There are millions of people in this country – working people, people with jobs – whose net worth is negative, and is going to be negative until the day they die.
    About 20% of the population participates in some means-tested federal program or other. Medicaid, SNAP, housing assistance. One in five people. That’s excluding Medicare and Social Security.
    I really don’t care how many billionaires there are. I care how many people are unable to achieve a basic level of financial security.
    This isn’t the third world, this country is really, really rich. Filthy stinking rich. There is no excuse for the degree of poverty and financial distress that is normal here.

  603. WRS,
    except I want to be clear that I want more people able to afford as much as a millionaire can afford today. Not just a bout of inflation that makes more people’s wealth increase to make them millionaires. (I remember, too well, the inflation after the Arab Oil Embargo. We all got ten times wealthier on paper in the aftermath. But not in reality.)

  604. WRS,
    except I want to be clear that I want more people able to afford as much as a millionaire can afford today. Not just a bout of inflation that makes more people’s wealth increase to make them millionaires. (I remember, too well, the inflation after the Arab Oil Embargo. We all got ten times wealthier on paper in the aftermath. But not in reality.)

  605. WRS as usual.
    Just writing “negative net worth” turns my stomach. It’s too close to

    If they would rather die,” said Scrooge, “they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.”

  606. WRS as usual.
    Just writing “negative net worth” turns my stomach. It’s too close to

    If they would rather die,” said Scrooge, “they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.”

  607. By the same token, the laws against theft are a form of market intervention.
    If you say so…I would then only ask that you refrain from using the term “free markets” and dispense with the normative baggage ascribed thereto.
    Thanks!

  608. By the same token, the laws against theft are a form of market intervention.
    If you say so…I would then only ask that you refrain from using the term “free markets” and dispense with the normative baggage ascribed thereto.
    Thanks!

  609. Without patent law, Bill Gates would just be another schlub who likes to write software
    Microsoft got big back when Gates was against software patents – its software was protected by copyright not patents.
    Software patents should not exist. They bring no benefit whatever to humanity.
    At one time, there was some point in software copyright. But not now.

  610. Without patent law, Bill Gates would just be another schlub who likes to write software
    Microsoft got big back when Gates was against software patents – its software was protected by copyright not patents.
    Software patents should not exist. They bring no benefit whatever to humanity.
    At one time, there was some point in software copyright. But not now.

  611. except I want to be clear that I want more people able to afford as much as a millionaire can afford today.
    Yes, this.
    It should be uncommon, or at least much less common, for people to be unable to meet the basic needs of daily life through their own work and initiative.
    Everybody doesn’t need a Rolls Royce. Everybody, or at least most people by far, should be able to buy a set of tires, or replace their washing machine, without breaking the bank.
    People should be able to send their kids to school without having it cost as much as a house.
    People should be able to deal with unexpected health issues without having it result in personal bankruptcy.
    I’m not making outrageous demands here.
    I consider Trump to be, basically, a world-historical scoundrel, but I understand his appeal. A lot of people are getting freaking crushed, and they don’t really see anybody going out of their way to help them.
    IMO you have to be willfully blind to think DJT is the guy to make any kind of dent in that, but I guess people see what they want to see. He’s a walking talking human train wreck, but credit where credit is due. The man can read a room.
    There are a lot of folks out there who feel like their backs are up against a wall. It’s not a good place for us to be.

  612. except I want to be clear that I want more people able to afford as much as a millionaire can afford today.
    Yes, this.
    It should be uncommon, or at least much less common, for people to be unable to meet the basic needs of daily life through their own work and initiative.
    Everybody doesn’t need a Rolls Royce. Everybody, or at least most people by far, should be able to buy a set of tires, or replace their washing machine, without breaking the bank.
    People should be able to send their kids to school without having it cost as much as a house.
    People should be able to deal with unexpected health issues without having it result in personal bankruptcy.
    I’m not making outrageous demands here.
    I consider Trump to be, basically, a world-historical scoundrel, but I understand his appeal. A lot of people are getting freaking crushed, and they don’t really see anybody going out of their way to help them.
    IMO you have to be willfully blind to think DJT is the guy to make any kind of dent in that, but I guess people see what they want to see. He’s a walking talking human train wreck, but credit where credit is due. The man can read a room.
    There are a lot of folks out there who feel like their backs are up against a wall. It’s not a good place for us to be.

  613. At one time, there was some point in software copyright. But not now.
    that seems… wrong.
    i’ve written and sold a lot of software in my life. and copyright is the only legal mechanism out there that stops other people from taking my stuff and selling it themselves.

  614. At one time, there was some point in software copyright. But not now.
    that seems… wrong.
    i’ve written and sold a lot of software in my life. and copyright is the only legal mechanism out there that stops other people from taking my stuff and selling it themselves.

  615. copyright is the only legal mechanism out there that stops other people from taking my stuff and selling it themselves.
    For software, read also music, books, anything easily reproducible.
    Copyright is not just about protecting The Man. It’s also makes a creative craft industry possible.
    Among other things, it’s a way of demonstrating respect for other people’s work and initiative.

  616. copyright is the only legal mechanism out there that stops other people from taking my stuff and selling it themselves.
    For software, read also music, books, anything easily reproducible.
    Copyright is not just about protecting The Man. It’s also makes a creative craft industry possible.
    Among other things, it’s a way of demonstrating respect for other people’s work and initiative.

  617. I would differentiate between poverty a financial distress. I have been poor and I have been in financial distress separately in my life. If I were to choose to focus on fixing one it would be the latter.
    Yes, having fewer, or even no, people in poverty would alleviate much of the problem, but not nearly all.
    I pit this out there with little more depth because I am in my car on my phone. But it seems there may always be poor people and we could still focus on a safety net that better addresses immediate financial distress.
    Not a distinction I have thought about until russell wrote that sentence.

  618. I would differentiate between poverty a financial distress. I have been poor and I have been in financial distress separately in my life. If I were to choose to focus on fixing one it would be the latter.
    Yes, having fewer, or even no, people in poverty would alleviate much of the problem, but not nearly all.
    I pit this out there with little more depth because I am in my car on my phone. But it seems there may always be poor people and we could still focus on a safety net that better addresses immediate financial distress.
    Not a distinction I have thought about until russell wrote that sentence.

  619. The intelligence captured Putin’s specific instructions on the operation’s audacious objectives — defeat or at least damage the Democratic nominee, Hillary Clinton, and help elect her opponent, Donald Trump.

    all i hear are crickets, to my right.

  620. The intelligence captured Putin’s specific instructions on the operation’s audacious objectives — defeat or at least damage the Democratic nominee, Hillary Clinton, and help elect her opponent, Donald Trump.

    all i hear are crickets, to my right.

  623. If it’s necessary to repeatedly register outrage and disgust at the actions of Russia, and re-emphasise how this heavily leant on the scales in the Trump’s favour, I for one am prepared to do it. Ditto disgust at the nonchalance of the Republicans (or indeed the American public) about same. But I must say, I would have thought that the repeated need to do so will get very onerous and boring. However, so be it. Going forward (as current jargon has it), I worry as much about a Pence presidency as I do about a Trump one, although in different ways.

  624. If it’s necessary to repeatedly register outrage and disgust at the actions of Russia, and re-emphasise how this heavily leant on the scales in the Trump’s favour, I for one am prepared to do it. Ditto disgust at the nonchalance of the Republicans (or indeed the American public) about same. But I must say, I would have thought that the repeated need to do so will get very onerous and boring. However, so be it. Going forward (as current jargon has it), I worry as much about a Pence presidency as I do about a Trump one, although in different ways.

  625. Going forward (as current jargon has it), I worry as much about a Pence presidency as I do about a Trump one, although in different ways.
    Going forward, I worry that we will never have a free and fair election again. Unless we solve this, and can vote, all of our conversations about a social safety net, our views on copyright, or any other issue that is subject to democratic debate is moot.
    I know, we should not assume doom, and I don’t. I plan to work hard for candidates , and to get out the vote. But we have a collaborator in the White House, who has no interest in stopping what happened, and what will certainly continue with more skill and intelligence. Solving this is our most important concern until we do, boring or not.

  626. Going forward (as current jargon has it), I worry as much about a Pence presidency as I do about a Trump one, although in different ways.
    Going forward, I worry that we will never have a free and fair election again. Unless we solve this, and can vote, all of our conversations about a social safety net, our views on copyright, or any other issue that is subject to democratic debate is moot.
    I know, we should not assume doom, and I don’t. I plan to work hard for candidates , and to get out the vote. But we have a collaborator in the White House, who has no interest in stopping what happened, and what will certainly continue with more skill and intelligence. Solving this is our most important concern until we do, boring or not.

  627. First, in a country of ~330M people, 540 of anything is noise.
    So, there’s a lot of people who’re just complaining about the noise. 🙂
    About 20% of the population participates in some means-tested federal program or other. Medicaid, SNAP, housing assistance. One in five people. That’s excluding Medicare and Social Security.
    No doubt a good percentage of them due to family members being in prison, being unemployable due to criminal convictions or being dead. All because the larger society has decided that it’s just fine to destroy people’s lives just because some of them wanted to ingest certain plant products. In some communities, the populations are 40/60 male/female because the men are in prison or dead. An ending of the war on [some] drugs would greatly reduce the gun violence everyone complains about and reduce poverty.
    The various state-level occupation licensing laws don’t help either. How is a poor person expected to spend thousands of dollars and thousand of hours in unrelated training just to do something as innocuous as hair weaving?
    There is no excuse for the degree of poverty and financial distress that is normal here.
    True. But it’s hard to where the evil corporations and the evil rich are all to blame.

  628. First, in a country of ~330M people, 540 of anything is noise.
    So, there’s a lot of people who’re just complaining about the noise. 🙂
    About 20% of the population participates in some means-tested federal program or other. Medicaid, SNAP, housing assistance. One in five people. That’s excluding Medicare and Social Security.
    No doubt a good percentage of them due to family members being in prison, being unemployable due to criminal convictions or being dead. All because the larger society has decided that it’s just fine to destroy people’s lives just because some of them wanted to ingest certain plant products. In some communities, the populations are 40/60 male/female because the men are in prison or dead. An ending of the war on [some] drugs would greatly reduce the gun violence everyone complains about and reduce poverty.
    The various state-level occupation licensing laws don’t help either. How is a poor person expected to spend thousands of dollars and thousand of hours in unrelated training just to do something as innocuous as hair weaving?
    There is no excuse for the degree of poverty and financial distress that is normal here.
    True. But it’s hard to where the evil corporations and the evil rich are all to blame.

  629. Going forward (as current jargon has it), I worry as much about a Pence presidency as I do about a Trump one, although in different ways.
    I think that Pence will do a lot of things that I will dislike. Including a lot that Trump would fail to do due to his incompetence, not because he wouldn’t be willing to do them.
    On the other hand, Pence would also refrain from doing some of the utterly stupid things that Trump will blunder into. (See Syria.)
    On balance, Pence would be significantly . . . less bad. Not a ringing endorsement, but that’s the situation we are in.

  630. Going forward (as current jargon has it), I worry as much about a Pence presidency as I do about a Trump one, although in different ways.
    I think that Pence will do a lot of things that I will dislike. Including a lot that Trump would fail to do due to his incompetence, not because he wouldn’t be willing to do them.
    On the other hand, Pence would also refrain from doing some of the utterly stupid things that Trump will blunder into. (See Syria.)
    On balance, Pence would be significantly . . . less bad. Not a ringing endorsement, but that’s the situation we are in.

  631. I don’t know about Pence being less bad. I have no confidence in that theory. I want to feel confident that whoever is in the White House is protecting US security interests (and democracy). I suspect that a lot of Republicans were just as complicit as Trump and his appointees (see traitor McConnell), and that there are a lot of people who could be compromised. This is an ongoing crisis superseding any discussion of Democrats’ “messaging”.

  632. I don’t know about Pence being less bad. I have no confidence in that theory. I want to feel confident that whoever is in the White House is protecting US security interests (and democracy). I suspect that a lot of Republicans were just as complicit as Trump and his appointees (see traitor McConnell), and that there are a lot of people who could be compromised. This is an ongoing crisis superseding any discussion of Democrats’ “messaging”.

  633. “all i hear are crickets, to my right”
    Funny, it seems that there are multiple investigations being led by folks on th Right into Putin’s actions. The Senate passed additional sanctions 98-2. The House will pass them soon enough. All of that supported by a huge majority of Americans.
    Beyond that, if they have Putin doing that, I am certain they can sort out who he talked to about what. Then act accordingly. Outrage is unnecessary, it’s being addressed.
    Crickets that aint.

  634. “all i hear are crickets, to my right”
    Funny, it seems that there are multiple investigations being led by folks on th Right into Putin’s actions. The Senate passed additional sanctions 98-2. The House will pass them soon enough. All of that supported by a huge majority of Americans.
    Beyond that, if they have Putin doing that, I am certain they can sort out who he talked to about what. Then act accordingly. Outrage is unnecessary, it’s being addressed.
    Crickets that aint.

  635. I think, but do not know, that Pence would basically bring a higher degree of respect for the office itself.
    Among other things, I would not expect him to exploit the office for his obvious, venal, immediate personal enrichment. At a minimum, my guess is that he would put off cashing in until he was out of office and could make his pile as a lobbyist or on the lecture circuit.
    Quibbles, no doubt, but there are some really pernicious precedents being set by Trump that would IMO be well worth nipping in the bud.
    With W we got torture, the doctrine of pre-emptive warfare, and the mysterious fourth branch. With Trump we get POTUS as brand enhancement.
    I’m not sure what’s left – naked mud wrestling on the WH lawn? chucking suspicious Arabs out of helicopters a la Pinochet? branding opportunities on the Big Beautiful Wall? – but it would be good to see the trend go in the other direction.

  636. I think, but do not know, that Pence would basically bring a higher degree of respect for the office itself.
    Among other things, I would not expect him to exploit the office for his obvious, venal, immediate personal enrichment. At a minimum, my guess is that he would put off cashing in until he was out of office and could make his pile as a lobbyist or on the lecture circuit.
    Quibbles, no doubt, but there are some really pernicious precedents being set by Trump that would IMO be well worth nipping in the bud.
    With W we got torture, the doctrine of pre-emptive warfare, and the mysterious fourth branch. With Trump we get POTUS as brand enhancement.
    I’m not sure what’s left – naked mud wrestling on the WH lawn? chucking suspicious Arabs out of helicopters a la Pinochet? branding opportunities on the Big Beautiful Wall? – but it would be good to see the trend go in the other direction.

  639. Marty, remind me exactly when in the past that the GOP has been so calm and sanguine about Russian interference in the USA? Because it’s just escaping me.
    Various over-the-top “red scares”, “commie spies”, etc., seem to be more likely. Or was that all just hyped up theater for political gain?

  640. Marty, remind me exactly when in the past that the GOP has been so calm and sanguine about Russian interference in the USA? Because it’s just escaping me.
    Various over-the-top “red scares”, “commie spies”, etc., seem to be more likely. Or was that all just hyped up theater for political gain?

  641. Funny, it seems that there are multiple investigations being led by folks on th Right into Putin’s actions.
    there are substantially more folks on the right who think it’s “fake news”.
    and there are many on the right who seem primarily interested in stopping people from talking about it.
    that’s funny, too.
    The Senate passed additional sanctions 98-2.
    they did. and that was, frankly, amazing. i keep waiting for McConnell to show us what that was really all about. maybe that’s why the House is sitting on it. funny, in a different way.

  642. Funny, it seems that there are multiple investigations being led by folks on th Right into Putin’s actions.
    there are substantially more folks on the right who think it’s “fake news”.
    and there are many on the right who seem primarily interested in stopping people from talking about it.
    that’s funny, too.
    The Senate passed additional sanctions 98-2.
    they did. and that was, frankly, amazing. i keep waiting for McConnell to show us what that was really all about. maybe that’s why the House is sitting on it. funny, in a different way.

  643. Snarki,
    I am not sure how multiple investigations in both chambers of Congress and a special counsel appointed by the Justice Department, all chaired or appointed by Republican led committees and Secretaries translates into sanguine. That is what escapes me.

  644. Snarki,
    I am not sure how multiple investigations in both chambers of Congress and a special counsel appointed by the Justice Department, all chaired or appointed by Republican led committees and Secretaries translates into sanguine. That is what escapes me.

  645. IMO, “sanguine” = “Outrage is unnecessary, it’s being addressed.”
    “it’s being addressed” seems like a pretty tepid response to what is likely the biggest national security crisis this country has seen in at least the last half century.

  646. IMO, “sanguine” = “Outrage is unnecessary, it’s being addressed.”
    “it’s being addressed” seems like a pretty tepid response to what is likely the biggest national security crisis this country has seen in at least the last half century.

  647. It would be if there weren’t a bunch of people, including professionals in national security, as witnessed by the leak that somehow the CIA recorded Putin giving orders to hurt Hilary and thus help Trump.(not sure how that isn’t a problematic disclosure).
    I suppose there may be more on the outrage meter if there was any reasonable person who didn’t already assume that was true so the recording is just corroboration of the facts.

  648. It would be if there weren’t a bunch of people, including professionals in national security, as witnessed by the leak that somehow the CIA recorded Putin giving orders to hurt Hilary and thus help Trump.(not sure how that isn’t a problematic disclosure).
    I suppose there may be more on the outrage meter if there was any reasonable person who didn’t already assume that was true so the recording is just corroboration of the facts.

  651. not sure how that isn’t a problematic disclosure
    It’s a problematic reality, the disclosure is just the icing on the cake.

  652. not sure how that isn’t a problematic disclosure
    It’s a problematic reality, the disclosure is just the icing on the cake.

  655. It strikes me that the (R) concept of access to health insurance is basically a self-insurance model, with some kind of catastrophic private market plan as a stop-loss backup.
    Some kind of co-pay for regular doctor visits, health care savings plans for four-to-five figure costs, then a catastrophic plan as a stop-loss.
    That, I think they figure, will get the job done, will get people to think twice about spending money on stuff they don’t need because it’s coming out of their own pocket, and will keep people from totally going over the cliff if they have bad luck.
    It’s not the worst plan in the world. The only problem with it is the number of people that don’t have any freaking money to put in their HSA.
    If you’re making $50K and have a couple of kids, where the hell are you going to find $500 a month (or more) to throw into an HSA? On top of whatever your piece of the premium for the catastrophic stuff is? Which, if you work for yourself, is all of it, and even if you don’t work for yourself might be all of it.
    My own co-pay for regular office visits is now $50. My wife’s PCP is not one of the “preferred” guys, so hers is $75.
    She sees her doc every time she goes in, BTW. I haven’t seen my nominal PCP in about 10 years. When I go in I see a nurse practicioner. They’re cheaper. That’s why my guy is “preferred”.
    In any case, we can make that work, although it kind of sucks. But we don’t make $50K, and we don’t have kids at home who need to go to the doc every month or two for some damned thing or other.
    I pick $50K because that’s about the median household income in this country. Which means half the households have less than that, quite a few much less.
    Feel the squeeze, America.

  656. It strikes me that the (R) concept of access to health insurance is basically a self-insurance model, with some kind of catastrophic private market plan as a stop-loss backup.
    Some kind of co-pay for regular doctor visits, health care savings plans for four-to-five figure costs, then a catastrophic plan as a stop-loss.
    That, I think they figure, will get the job done, will get people to think twice about spending money on stuff they don’t need because it’s coming out of their own pocket, and will keep people from totally going over the cliff if they have bad luck.
    It’s not the worst plan in the world. The only problem with it is the number of people that don’t have any freaking money to put in their HSA.
    If you’re making $50K and have a couple of kids, where the hell are you going to find $500 a month (or more) to throw into an HSA? On top of whatever your piece of the premium for the catastrophic stuff is? Which, if you work for yourself, is all of it, and even if you don’t work for yourself might be all of it.
    My own co-pay for regular office visits is now $50. My wife’s PCP is not one of the “preferred” guys, so hers is $75.
    She sees her doc every time she goes in, BTW. I haven’t seen my nominal PCP in about 10 years. When I go in I see a nurse practicioner. They’re cheaper. That’s why my guy is “preferred”.
    In any case, we can make that work, although it kind of sucks. But we don’t make $50K, and we don’t have kids at home who need to go to the doc every month or two for some damned thing or other.
    I pick $50K because that’s about the median household income in this country. Which means half the households have less than that, quite a few much less.
    Feel the squeeze, America.

  657. not sure how that isn’t a problematic disclosure
    the public needs to know about this stuff. they should have known about it (and especially the stuff that Reality Winner disclosed) before the election. now, states know they need to step up their security around elections. because, IIRC, the IC still hasn’t actually notified the states that were among those that were hacked.
    but given that it all points in the direction of helping Trump, and that Trump is a petulant child who would never let this kind of thing out because it diminishes his awesomeness, if we didn’t get this stuff from leaks, we would likely never get it at all.
    i hope they leak everything about this. if it embarrasses our national embarrassment, tough shit. Trump is screaming his head off about this stuff, as he should; but sadly he’s screaming about it defensively and personally when he should be screaming about it as a goddamned patriot.

  658. not sure how that isn’t a problematic disclosure
    the public needs to know about this stuff. they should have known about it (and especially the stuff that Reality Winner disclosed) before the election. now, states know they need to step up their security around elections. because, IIRC, the IC still hasn’t actually notified the states that were among those that were hacked.
    but given that it all points in the direction of helping Trump, and that Trump is a petulant child who would never let this kind of thing out because it diminishes his awesomeness, if we didn’t get this stuff from leaks, we would likely never get it at all.
    i hope they leak everything about this. if it embarrasses our national embarrassment, tough shit. Trump is screaming his head off about this stuff, as he should; but sadly he’s screaming about it defensively and personally when he should be screaming about it as a goddamned patriot.

  659. The only solid reason not to leak is if doing so would jeopardize the source inside Russia. Especially if we can get further intelligence from that source in the future, provided we don’t blow his cover.
    Granted, you might be able to leak so as not to make the source identifiable. Which would change the calculation.

  660. The only solid reason not to leak is if doing so would jeopardize the source inside Russia. Especially if we can get further intelligence from that source in the future, provided we don’t blow his cover.
    Granted, you might be able to leak so as not to make the source identifiable. Which would change the calculation.

  663. Solving this is our most important concern until we do, boring or not.
    Do I really need to point out that it is the requirement to constantly repeat how outraged we are about all this (to prove our bona fides) that is boring, not the need to solve the actual problem of the compromised election/s, which we all (as far as I can see) agree is a major, urgent priority?
    Surely not.

  664. Solving this is our most important concern until we do, boring or not.
    Do I really need to point out that it is the requirement to constantly repeat how outraged we are about all this (to prove our bona fides) that is boring, not the need to solve the actual problem of the compromised election/s, which we all (as far as I can see) agree is a major, urgent priority?
    Surely not.

  665. Do I really need to point out that it is the requirement to constantly repeat how outraged we are about all this
    I never asked you to do that. I’m suggesting that before Democrats are asked to “change their message,” we should find out what actually happened to their message in 2016. I think there may be a lot of reasons why their message wasn’t heard, and why, if it was, it didn’t result in an electoral victory. Moreover, it might be more important to make sure it doesn’t keep happening than for Democrats to morph their message into something that itself may be tampered with.
    That’s all. I’m certainly not insisting that you or anyone else repeat their outrage. Hope I’ve clarified this.

  666. Do I really need to point out that it is the requirement to constantly repeat how outraged we are about all this
    I never asked you to do that. I’m suggesting that before Democrats are asked to “change their message,” we should find out what actually happened to their message in 2016. I think there may be a lot of reasons why their message wasn’t heard, and why, if it was, it didn’t result in an electoral victory. Moreover, it might be more important to make sure it doesn’t keep happening than for Democrats to morph their message into something that itself may be tampered with.
    That’s all. I’m certainly not insisting that you or anyone else repeat their outrage. Hope I’ve clarified this.

  669. “The only solid reason not to leak is if doing so would jeopardize the source inside Russia. ”
    My only point. this was pretty specific for them not to figure out how it was obtained.

  670. “The only solid reason not to leak is if doing so would jeopardize the source inside Russia. ”
    My only point. this was pretty specific for them not to figure out how it was obtained.

  671. I think in the article it says that they have withheld certain details at the request of the Intelligence services. Presumably, throwing smoke up about any details that could identify a source is part of that.

  672. I think in the article it says that they have withheld certain details at the request of the Intelligence services. Presumably, throwing smoke up about any details that could identify a source is part of that.

  673. will get people to think twice about spending money on stuff they don’t need because it’s coming out of their own pocket
    Which is a counterproductive way to reduce costs in aggregate in the longer term, since preventive and primary care (define “need”) are cheap compared to dealing with problems that have become debilitating or life-threatening. The government is supposed to have the luxury of looking at the big picture and the long view when crafting policy, but the current bunch appears to be narrowminded and short-sighted. Visionaries, they ain’t.

  674. will get people to think twice about spending money on stuff they don’t need because it’s coming out of their own pocket
    Which is a counterproductive way to reduce costs in aggregate in the longer term, since preventive and primary care (define “need”) are cheap compared to dealing with problems that have become debilitating or life-threatening. The government is supposed to have the luxury of looking at the big picture and the long view when crafting policy, but the current bunch appears to be narrowminded and short-sighted. Visionaries, they ain’t.

  675. People who don’t have a background in medicine are not in a position to be “informed consumers” of health care.
    It’s a fairly specialized technical field. That’s one of the reasons it takes freaking years to become a doctor.
    If I have weird inexplicable chronic headaches (which, at the moment, I actually do) I’m not in a position to know if I just need to get glasses, or if I have a rare arterial inflammation, or if I have atypical migraine, or if I have a brain tumor.
    I have insurance, and even with a $75 co-pay for specialists, it’s in reach for me to find out what’s going on.
    If I didn’t have insurance, I’d probably just eat a lot of ibuprophen and hope for the best.
    More times than not, that would work out OK. Conversely, I might stroke out and die.
    Would I feel lucky enough to pass on the tests to find out? Or would I dig down and come up with the dough to check it out?
    Would that even be a choice? Would the relevant docs even see me without insurance, or at least cash up front?
    The whole health care thing is just so mind-bogglingly, needlessly stupid that I almost have to look at it as some kind of bitter comedy.
    We live in a country where lots of people consider it an infringement on their personal god-given liberty to have the federal government involved in making health care available to them.
    They’d rather get sick and die than submit to that heavy, heavy yoke.
    Maybe there’s a sane response to that, but if so, it’s above my pay grade.
    This bullshit is going to kill people. Lots of them. Unnecessarily.
    It’s a freaking sin.

  676. People who don’t have a background in medicine are not in a position to be “informed consumers” of health care.
    It’s a fairly specialized technical field. That’s one of the reasons it takes freaking years to become a doctor.
    If I have weird inexplicable chronic headaches (which, at the moment, I actually do) I’m not in a position to know if I just need to get glasses, or if I have a rare arterial inflammation, or if I have atypical migraine, or if I have a brain tumor.
    I have insurance, and even with a $75 co-pay for specialists, it’s in reach for me to find out what’s going on.
    If I didn’t have insurance, I’d probably just eat a lot of ibuprophen and hope for the best.
    More times than not, that would work out OK. Conversely, I might stroke out and die.
    Would I feel lucky enough to pass on the tests to find out? Or would I dig down and come up with the dough to check it out?
    Would that even be a choice? Would the relevant docs even see me without insurance, or at least cash up front?
    The whole health care thing is just so mind-bogglingly, needlessly stupid that I almost have to look at it as some kind of bitter comedy.
    We live in a country where lots of people consider it an infringement on their personal god-given liberty to have the federal government involved in making health care available to them.
    They’d rather get sick and die than submit to that heavy, heavy yoke.
    Maybe there’s a sane response to that, but if so, it’s above my pay grade.
    This bullshit is going to kill people. Lots of them. Unnecessarily.
    It’s a freaking sin.

  677. I’m sorry to hear that you’re suffering, russell, and hope very much that it’s nothing to worry about, and stops hurting.

  678. I’m sorry to hear that you’re suffering, russell, and hope very much that it’s nothing to worry about, and stops hurting.

  681. i’ll be fine. because i have insurance, and a job that pays more than minimum wage.
    but thanks for the good wishes.

  682. i’ll be fine. because i have insurance, and a job that pays more than minimum wage.
    but thanks for the good wishes.

  683. i’ll be fine. because i have insurance, and a job that pays more than minimum wage.
    Good, but go to the dr. You’re immortal, of course, but could still be messed with.

  684. i’ll be fine. because i have insurance, and a job that pays more than minimum wage.
    Good, but go to the dr. You’re immortal, of course, but could still be messed with.

  687. “we don’t want the responsibility of having to pay attention.”
    bobbyp: Now there’s a grand theme with many possible riffs – marx’s concept of alienation for one (cue mcmanus).
    Rather than breaching the thickets of critical theory, I think more useful right now are Guy Debord and Sheldon Wolin, The Spectacle and “inverted totalitarianism”
    We are watching ourselves (watching ourselves) doing “politics” as public discourse. We watch pundits discuss how WWCs will react to Trump cutting Medicaid, and watch each other comment on each other’s comments. This is the spectacle, the show. We are the show, we make the Show. To a large degree in discourse politicians follow the Show.
    The totalitarianism is inverted because the people are “free” to say and do almost anything (with consequences, but no prior restraint) but without any influence on policy or systemic reform.
    As the few survivors retreat from the rising waters into the domes, we will get bored with politics and embrace Huxley’s future of sex, soma, and feelies.

  688. “we don’t want the responsibility of having to pay attention.”
    bobbyp: Now there’s a grand theme with many possible riffs – marx’s concept of alienation for one (cue mcmanus).
    Rather than breaching the thickets of critical theory, I think more useful right now are Guy Debord and Sheldon Wolin, The Spectacle and “inverted totalitarianism”
    We are watching ourselves (watching ourselves) doing “politics” as public discourse. We watch pundits discuss how WWCs will react to Trump cutting Medicaid, and watch each other comment on each other’s comments. This is the spectacle, the show. We are the show, we make the Show. To a large degree in discourse politicians follow the Show.
    The totalitarianism is inverted because the people are “free” to say and do almost anything (with consequences, but no prior restraint) but without any influence on policy or systemic reform.
    As the few survivors retreat from the rising waters into the domes, we will get bored with politics and embrace Huxley’s future of sex, soma, and feelies.

  689. Or, saying much the same thing as my 6:13 above, and the most recent paragraph by Kavoulakas (“Lukacs Theory of Reification…” in the Palgrave Handbook of Critical Theory 2017

    The paradox of the modern form of understanding is that, although it releases the potential of dialogical evaluation of differentiated validity claims already raised in everyday communication, thus triggering a communicative rationalization of the lifeworld, at the same time it allows the separation of instrumental practices and the formation of particular fields of functional coordination of social action through steering media (money and power). It is precisely the excessive development of these latter fields of systemic integration due to their inner dynamics that causes a structural restriction of free communication and the so-called “colonization” of the lifeworld by the system (Habermas 1992: 195-197).

    Just having some early morning fun with y’all.

  690. Or, saying much the same thing as my 6:13 above, and the most recent paragraph by Kavoulakas (“Lukacs Theory of Reification…” in the Palgrave Handbook of Critical Theory 2017

    The paradox of the modern form of understanding is that, although it releases the potential of dialogical evaluation of differentiated validity claims already raised in everyday communication, thus triggering a communicative rationalization of the lifeworld, at the same time it allows the separation of instrumental practices and the formation of particular fields of functional coordination of social action through steering media (money and power). It is precisely the excessive development of these latter fields of systemic integration due to their inner dynamics that causes a structural restriction of free communication and the so-called “colonization” of the lifeworld by the system (Habermas 1992: 195-197).

    Just having some early morning fun with y’all.

  691. Thanks bob mcmanus, I found your 06.13 troublingly easy to understand. Feeling much less unsettled now normal service is resumed!
    russell, what sapient said. Don’t forget that it’s a prerequisite for ROTU that nominees don’t want to do it, and don’t consider themselves capable of doing it. There is no other possible candidate.

  692. Thanks bob mcmanus, I found your 06.13 troublingly easy to understand. Feeling much less unsettled now normal service is resumed!
    russell, what sapient said. Don’t forget that it’s a prerequisite for ROTU that nominees don’t want to do it, and don’t consider themselves capable of doing it. There is no other possible candidate.

  693. “dialogical evaluation of differentiated validity claims”
    I fell asleep during that part of the feelie.

  694. “dialogical evaluation of differentiated validity claims”
    I fell asleep during that part of the feelie.

  695. Atypical migraines are fiercely debilitating. Between pain and exhaustion from the pain, and the frustration of the cyclical nature of almost relief from otc pain meds followed by the inevitable bounce back dagger to the brain, they cruelly exist with you constantly, and forever, without diagnosis and treatment.
    My greatest sympathy and prayers for a quick resolution.

  696. Atypical migraines are fiercely debilitating. Between pain and exhaustion from the pain, and the frustration of the cyclical nature of almost relief from otc pain meds followed by the inevitable bounce back dagger to the brain, they cruelly exist with you constantly, and forever, without diagnosis and treatment.
    My greatest sympathy and prayers for a quick resolution.

  697. “I fell asleep during that part of the feelie.”
    I was wondering if there was, from a national identity perspective, any possibility of a meaningful dialogic process even possible.
    Then I nodded off.

  698. “I fell asleep during that part of the feelie.”
    I was wondering if there was, from a national identity perspective, any possibility of a meaningful dialogic process even possible.
    Then I nodded off.

  699. sapient, FWIW, after your objections and points re Pelosi, I have been reading e.g. hilzoy’s feed on this as well, and (although still rather ignorant on the ins and outs of the actual procedural stuff etc) realise that blaming the Dem leadership in the way that I somewhat lazily went along with is a mistake.
    https://twitter.com/speechboy71/status/877943248773197824
    Apologies.

  700. sapient, FWIW, after your objections and points re Pelosi, I have been reading e.g. hilzoy’s feed on this as well, and (although still rather ignorant on the ins and outs of the actual procedural stuff etc) realise that blaming the Dem leadership in the way that I somewhat lazily went along with is a mistake.
    https://twitter.com/speechboy71/status/877943248773197824
    Apologies.

  703. GftNC,
    Beyond the politics of sex and age, Pelosi represents a version of the Democratic party built on the politics of demonizing Republicans. Demonizing their economic and social policies as evil, hateful and failed.
    That is what the Democrats struggle with today, can you be a party that is primarily a reaction and maintain a big tent in local and state races on a broad scale.
    One of the bigger challenges, that Ossof clearly recognized, is that it is hard to paint yhe individual in a local race as hateful and evil. It works better in national elections, but in smaller races people meet the candidate and know they aren’t actually evil. So those politics fail.
    Pelosi is also a product of the same generation of lawmakers as Boehner was, people who competed but in the end struck deals. Much of the criticism on the left is because she recognizes that to govern you have to eventually give to get. The only surprise is how much longer she has lasted in this environment than Boehner as the House has become more polarized and she has her own group of no compromise members.
    As the titular head of a party with a failing political strategy and a hard line to her left it would be surprising if she wasn’t a casualty.

  704. GftNC,
    Beyond the politics of sex and age, Pelosi represents a version of the Democratic party built on the politics of demonizing Republicans. Demonizing their economic and social policies as evil, hateful and failed.
    That is what the Democrats struggle with today, can you be a party that is primarily a reaction and maintain a big tent in local and state races on a broad scale.
    One of the bigger challenges, that Ossof clearly recognized, is that it is hard to paint yhe individual in a local race as hateful and evil. It works better in national elections, but in smaller races people meet the candidate and know they aren’t actually evil. So those politics fail.
    Pelosi is also a product of the same generation of lawmakers as Boehner was, people who competed but in the end struck deals. Much of the criticism on the left is because she recognizes that to govern you have to eventually give to get. The only surprise is how much longer she has lasted in this environment than Boehner as the House has become more polarized and she has her own group of no compromise members.
    As the titular head of a party with a failing political strategy and a hard line to her left it would be surprising if she wasn’t a casualty.

  705. a party that’s primarily reaction sure did rack up a lot of accomplishments, accomplishments that the non-at-all Reactionary Party Of Civil Ideas is working like crazy to tear down as quickly as it can.
    i mean, what could possibly be a more positive vision for America than “Repeal and Replace” ?

  706. a party that’s primarily reaction sure did rack up a lot of accomplishments, accomplishments that the non-at-all Reactionary Party Of Civil Ideas is working like crazy to tear down as quickly as it can.
    i mean, what could possibly be a more positive vision for America than “Repeal and Replace” ?

  709. the Democratic party built on the politics of demonizing Republicans. Demonizing their economic and social policies as evil, hateful and failed.
    Marty, I strongly suspect that some of the problem is that if you reverse the party names in the phrase above, it would accurately reflect the situation as well. Given that most partisans would fight to the death rather than recognise the truth of this, it is difficult to see the solution. And truthfully, given for example the latest version of the AHCA, it is not hard to see why the Dems find it very easy and persuasive to characterise the Republicans this way. Of course, you might say that I’m a liberal so I would think this way. And on and on it goes…..

  710. the Democratic party built on the politics of demonizing Republicans. Demonizing their economic and social policies as evil, hateful and failed.
    Marty, I strongly suspect that some of the problem is that if you reverse the party names in the phrase above, it would accurately reflect the situation as well. Given that most partisans would fight to the death rather than recognise the truth of this, it is difficult to see the solution. And truthfully, given for example the latest version of the AHCA, it is not hard to see why the Dems find it very easy and persuasive to characterise the Republicans this way. Of course, you might say that I’m a liberal so I would think this way. And on and on it goes…..

  711. The creed of the modern GOP is: tax cuts for the rich are the best thing government can do for the not-rich. Well, that’s the professed creed; the real creed is the tax-cuts-for-the-rich part, and any alleged benefit to the not-rich is just the sales pitch.
    When the modern GOP caterwauls about the “national debt”, it’s always with the implication that spending (on Medicaid, not the Pentagon) is too high, never with an acknowledgement that taxes are too low. Any talk of taxes being too low might arouse impure thoughts like “let’s NOT cut taxes on the rich” among the populace.
    I put “national debt” in quotes because I mean to distinguish The Government from The Nation. A nation whose people who are all in debt but whose government is debt-free can’t really be said to have zero “national” debt.
    The GOP’s line that cutting Medicaid in order to give tax cuts to the rich is really being done out of compassion for “American taxpayers” may fool some slow-witted not-rich taxpayers, but it doesn’t fool me, and it certainly doesn’t fool the rich who value their tax cuts more than life itself.
    –TP

  712. The creed of the modern GOP is: tax cuts for the rich are the best thing government can do for the not-rich. Well, that’s the professed creed; the real creed is the tax-cuts-for-the-rich part, and any alleged benefit to the not-rich is just the sales pitch.
    When the modern GOP caterwauls about the “national debt”, it’s always with the implication that spending (on Medicaid, not the Pentagon) is too high, never with an acknowledgement that taxes are too low. Any talk of taxes being too low might arouse impure thoughts like “let’s NOT cut taxes on the rich” among the populace.
    I put “national debt” in quotes because I mean to distinguish The Government from The Nation. A nation whose people who are all in debt but whose government is debt-free can’t really be said to have zero “national” debt.
    The GOP’s line that cutting Medicaid in order to give tax cuts to the rich is really being done out of compassion for “American taxpayers” may fool some slow-witted not-rich taxpayers, but it doesn’t fool me, and it certainly doesn’t fool the rich who value their tax cuts more than life itself.
    –TP

  713. this is what Bellmore used to call “doing violence to the language”.
    saying that liberals are reactionary is cute rhetorical trolling. but it loses its charm once you consider that the definition of the word “reactionary” is:

    (of a person or a set of views) opposing political or social liberalization or reform.

    the Democratic party built on the politics of demonizing Republicans. Demonizing their economic and social policies as evil, hateful and failed.
    and this is adorable!
    it’s like you really believe everybody else comes along with you into your world of make believe.

  714. this is what Bellmore used to call “doing violence to the language”.
    saying that liberals are reactionary is cute rhetorical trolling. but it loses its charm once you consider that the definition of the word “reactionary” is:

    (of a person or a set of views) opposing political or social liberalization or reform.

    the Democratic party built on the politics of demonizing Republicans. Demonizing their economic and social policies as evil, hateful and failed.
    and this is adorable!
    it’s like you really believe everybody else comes along with you into your world of make believe.

  715. a “death panel” is a sober and level-headed assessment of the ACA, right?
    calling Obama a “tyrant”? why that’s just simply lining up the facts with the plain meanings of words. there’s no hyperbolic partisan bullshit there! not a whit.
    and saying a law that bans employers and landlords from discriminating on the basis women’s reproductive choices is an attempt to turn a city into “an abortion sanctuary city” ? why that’s just a clear reading of the facts!
    Donald Trump, the elected leader of modern conservatism, spends his days sitting on the toilet screaming into his smart phone about witch hunts and the “failures” of his enemies and how sad and pathetic everyone is. why, that’s just common sense!
    come on Marty, pull the one!

  716. a “death panel” is a sober and level-headed assessment of the ACA, right?
    calling Obama a “tyrant”? why that’s just simply lining up the facts with the plain meanings of words. there’s no hyperbolic partisan bullshit there! not a whit.
    and saying a law that bans employers and landlords from discriminating on the basis women’s reproductive choices is an attempt to turn a city into “an abortion sanctuary city” ? why that’s just a clear reading of the facts!
    Donald Trump, the elected leader of modern conservatism, spends his days sitting on the toilet screaming into his smart phone about witch hunts and the “failures” of his enemies and how sad and pathetic everyone is. why, that’s just common sense!
    come on Marty, pull the one!

  719. ‘this is what Bellmore used to call “doing violence to the language”.’
    Bellmore spoke English.
    You have to translate Marty’s statements back into the native Russian to get the true meaning of the violence that is coming.

  720. ‘this is what Bellmore used to call “doing violence to the language”.’
    Bellmore spoke English.
    You have to translate Marty’s statements back into the native Russian to get the true meaning of the violence that is coming.

  723. I love this thread, I did not say one thing about the pros or cons of the current GOP. In fact, I alluded to their failures in my comparison of Pelosis challenges with Boehners.
    It is completely illustrative that people here believe the 30 years of Democratic demagoguery and refuse to accept that the ACA has failed in its goal to allocate healthcare resources effectively and perhaps handing some of that control back to the states will create a better solution.
    So the solutions are labelled hateful so there is no discussion of them or their potentially positive outcomes. Only negative outcomes aare assumed.
    Someone mentioned long term views on making policy, Democrats wont even imagine a long term view on this discussion.

  724. I love this thread, I did not say one thing about the pros or cons of the current GOP. In fact, I alluded to their failures in my comparison of Pelosis challenges with Boehners.
    It is completely illustrative that people here believe the 30 years of Democratic demagoguery and refuse to accept that the ACA has failed in its goal to allocate healthcare resources effectively and perhaps handing some of that control back to the states will create a better solution.
    So the solutions are labelled hateful so there is no discussion of them or their potentially positive outcomes. Only negative outcomes aare assumed.
    Someone mentioned long term views on making policy, Democrats wont even imagine a long term view on this discussion.

  725. hey Marty, explain how “Obama is a Muslim terrorist” wasn’t demonizing.
    Hmmm, despite my (somewhat absurd) attempts to be evenhanded, and keep lines of communiation open, this is a bloody good question.

  726. hey Marty, explain how “Obama is a Muslim terrorist” wasn’t demonizing.
    Hmmm, despite my (somewhat absurd) attempts to be evenhanded, and keep lines of communiation open, this is a bloody good question.

  727. Demonizing their economic and social policies as evil, hateful and failed.
    here are partial bibliographies of three top political authors. see if you can tell if they are conservative or liberal!
    Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War to the War on Terrorism.
    How to Talk to a Liberal (If You Must)
    Godless: The Church of Liberalism.
    If Democrats Had Any Brains, They’d Be Republicans.
    Guilty: Liberal “Victims” and Their Assault on America.
    Demonic: How the Liberal Mob Is Endangering America.
    Mugged: Racial Demagoguery from the Seventies to Obama.
    Never Trust a Liberal Over 3 – Especially a Republican.
    Adios, America: The Left’s Plan to Turn Our Country Into a Third World Hellhole.
    In Trump We Trust: E Pluribus Awesome!
    Let Freedom Ring: Winning the War of Liberty over Liberalism
    Deliver Us from Evil: Defeating Terrorism, Despotism, and Liberalism
    Conservative Victory: Defeating Obama’s Radical Agenda
    Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, from Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning
    so much clear and sober thought! not a hint of demonizing.

  728. Demonizing their economic and social policies as evil, hateful and failed.
    here are partial bibliographies of three top political authors. see if you can tell if they are conservative or liberal!
    Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War to the War on Terrorism.
    How to Talk to a Liberal (If You Must)
    Godless: The Church of Liberalism.
    If Democrats Had Any Brains, They’d Be Republicans.
    Guilty: Liberal “Victims” and Their Assault on America.
    Demonic: How the Liberal Mob Is Endangering America.
    Mugged: Racial Demagoguery from the Seventies to Obama.
    Never Trust a Liberal Over 3 – Especially a Republican.
    Adios, America: The Left’s Plan to Turn Our Country Into a Third World Hellhole.
    In Trump We Trust: E Pluribus Awesome!
    Let Freedom Ring: Winning the War of Liberty over Liberalism
    Deliver Us from Evil: Defeating Terrorism, Despotism, and Liberalism
    Conservative Victory: Defeating Obama’s Radical Agenda
    Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, from Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning
    so much clear and sober thought! not a hint of demonizing.

  729. I did not say one thing about the pros or cons of the current GOP.
    you’re standing right on top of the point. look down.

  730. I did not say one thing about the pros or cons of the current GOP.
    you’re standing right on top of the point. look down.

  731. “I love this thread, I did not say one thing about the pros or cons of the current GOP.”
    Putin-worthy trolling.

  732. “I love this thread, I did not say one thing about the pros or cons of the current GOP.”
    Putin-worthy trolling.

  733. The discussion was about Pelosi. That’s my summary of her challenges today. If you are now trying to say the Democrats haven’t engage in calling Republicans evil and hateful by pointing out that Republicans have engaged in similar activities you are wasting your time, I am well aware of the GOP failures in this regard.
    But there is some Latin phrase for that form of argument.
    I’m sure that Muslim dictator is pretty hateful, I only assert he was dictatorial, in particular his last two years, and never have cast him as Muslim, as a compliment or criticism. So if that is a general complaint I am in agreement.

  734. The discussion was about Pelosi. That’s my summary of her challenges today. If you are now trying to say the Democrats haven’t engage in calling Republicans evil and hateful by pointing out that Republicans have engaged in similar activities you are wasting your time, I am well aware of the GOP failures in this regard.
    But there is some Latin phrase for that form of argument.
    I’m sure that Muslim dictator is pretty hateful, I only assert he was dictatorial, in particular his last two years, and never have cast him as Muslim, as a compliment or criticism. So if that is a general complaint I am in agreement.

  737. Good, but go to the dr.
    Atypical migraines are fiercely debilitating.
    Thanks for the kind and sympathetic words. I don’t want to make the headache thing seem bigger than it is.
    I’ll share the basic narrative for the insights it provides into the American health care system.
    Every now and then, probably once or twice a year, I get some swelling in my temple and an accompanying headache and neck stiffness. It’s kind of weird, but it doesn’t get in the way much.
    First time around, off to the doc. Could be an arterial thing, which if left untreated could lead to stroking out and/or sudden blindness. Uh oh! Or, could be… we don’t know what.
    Blood work says no arterial thing. Maybe it’s shingles (?!?). Throw a steroid at it and see what happens. Steroid seems OK, swelling goes away, pain goes away with it.
    Next time, we… still have no idea. Steroids worked last time, try again. Seemed to work again.
    One back story to this is that, for like 10 years, I’ve had what was diagnosed as visual migraine. Cool sparkly shiny stuff, some transient blank spots in the field of vision, on one occasion a truly spectacular wavy ripply aura that reduced my field of vision to about the size of a dime.
    It was an interesting drive home, that time.
    Anyway, this time around, the doc says, maybe the visual thing and the headaches are related. Still no idea WTF it is, but they’re packing me off to a neurologist. In the meantime, eat a bunch of ibuprophen 3 or 4 times a day. Maybe skip aikido for a week or two, all that getting thrown on the mat might not be so good for it.
    I see the neurologist next month, about six weeks out from when I made the appointment. Six weeks for an appointment might seem long for a situation that involves visual distortion, random swelling of the head, and transient headaches, but I know it must be OK because we have the best health care system in the world, especially since I’m not on any dreaded public insurance plan.
    Ha ha ha!
    In any case, it mostly just feels like somebody punched me in the head a couple of days ago. I eat some ibuprophen and carry on.
    What I expect this all to come down to is “you’re a geezer, shit happens”. I get that a lot lately. My audiologist and I joke about it, she’s about my age and she gets the same line now.
    “What’s the problem? Uh oh… How old are you? OK, never mind.”
    I got that diagnosis most recently with a weird lipoma I magically grew on my back. Went to the doc, he poked it a bit and said, “It’s along for the ride”. We had a laugh and off I went.
    When I say “the doc” here, I’m referring to nurse practicioners. I haven’t seem my nominal primary care guy in about 10 years.
    Costs me a $50 co-pay every time I go into his office, typically $75 for specialists, so I generally prefer to not go for minor stuff.
    See, market forces at work!! Ha ha ha!!
    I used to have a better deal, but the company I work for was bought by an outfit from Irving TX. They self-insure, and insist that the coverage and fee schedules are consistent with industry standard.
    Ha ha ha!
    Which is just another reason I’m glad I live in MA. The folks in my office are hoping to set up our own deal, health insurance-wise. We’ll see how it goes.
    In any case, the headache thing is just not making that big a dent in my world. We’ll see how it goes. I’m going back to aikido on Tuesday.
    I’m a geezer, shit happens. I’m OK.
    But I do thank you again for the good wishes.

  738. Good, but go to the dr.
    Atypical migraines are fiercely debilitating.
    Thanks for the kind and sympathetic words. I don’t want to make the headache thing seem bigger than it is.
    I’ll share the basic narrative for the insights it provides into the American health care system.
    Every now and then, probably once or twice a year, I get some swelling in my temple and an accompanying headache and neck stiffness. It’s kind of weird, but it doesn’t get in the way much.
    First time around, off to the doc. Could be an arterial thing, which if left untreated could lead to stroking out and/or sudden blindness. Uh oh! Or, could be… we don’t know what.
    Blood work says no arterial thing. Maybe it’s shingles (?!?). Throw a steroid at it and see what happens. Steroid seems OK, swelling goes away, pain goes away with it.
    Next time, we… still have no idea. Steroids worked last time, try again. Seemed to work again.
    One back story to this is that, for like 10 years, I’ve had what was diagnosed as visual migraine. Cool sparkly shiny stuff, some transient blank spots in the field of vision, on one occasion a truly spectacular wavy ripply aura that reduced my field of vision to about the size of a dime.
    It was an interesting drive home, that time.
    Anyway, this time around, the doc says, maybe the visual thing and the headaches are related. Still no idea WTF it is, but they’re packing me off to a neurologist. In the meantime, eat a bunch of ibuprophen 3 or 4 times a day. Maybe skip aikido for a week or two, all that getting thrown on the mat might not be so good for it.
    I see the neurologist next month, about six weeks out from when I made the appointment. Six weeks for an appointment might seem long for a situation that involves visual distortion, random swelling of the head, and transient headaches, but I know it must be OK because we have the best health care system in the world, especially since I’m not on any dreaded public insurance plan.
    Ha ha ha!
    In any case, it mostly just feels like somebody punched me in the head a couple of days ago. I eat some ibuprophen and carry on.
    What I expect this all to come down to is “you’re a geezer, shit happens”. I get that a lot lately. My audiologist and I joke about it, she’s about my age and she gets the same line now.
    “What’s the problem? Uh oh… How old are you? OK, never mind.”
    I got that diagnosis most recently with a weird lipoma I magically grew on my back. Went to the doc, he poked it a bit and said, “It’s along for the ride”. We had a laugh and off I went.
    When I say “the doc” here, I’m referring to nurse practicioners. I haven’t seem my nominal primary care guy in about 10 years.
    Costs me a $50 co-pay every time I go into his office, typically $75 for specialists, so I generally prefer to not go for minor stuff.
    See, market forces at work!! Ha ha ha!!
    I used to have a better deal, but the company I work for was bought by an outfit from Irving TX. They self-insure, and insist that the coverage and fee schedules are consistent with industry standard.
    Ha ha ha!
    Which is just another reason I’m glad I live in MA. The folks in my office are hoping to set up our own deal, health insurance-wise. We’ll see how it goes.
    In any case, the headache thing is just not making that big a dent in my world. We’ll see how it goes. I’m going back to aikido on Tuesday.
    I’m a geezer, shit happens. I’m OK.
    But I do thank you again for the good wishes.

  739. I am well aware of the GOP failures in this regard.
    so, why do you keep trying to pretend that it’s a left-only problem? if it’s a problem for the left, why isn’t it a problem for the right? why has it, apparently, worked for the right, but can’t (or can’t be allowed to) work for the left?

  740. I am well aware of the GOP failures in this regard.
    so, why do you keep trying to pretend that it’s a left-only problem? if it’s a problem for the left, why isn’t it a problem for the right? why has it, apparently, worked for the right, but can’t (or can’t be allowed to) work for the left?

  743. I fell asleep during that part of the feelie.
    Yeah, but the first one was pretty good.
    the ACA has failed in its goal
    Ahem..

    The law has 3 primary goals:

    • Make affordable health insurance available to more people. The law provides consumers with subsidies (“premium tax credits”) that lower costs for households with incomes between 100% and 400% of the federal poverty level.
    • Expand the Medicaid program to cover all adults with income below 138% of the federal poverty level. (Not all states have expanded their Medicaid programs.)
    • Support innovative medical care delivery methods designed to lower the costs of health care generally.

    I call it a solid win on #2. Mixed results on #1, it made things affordable for some folks, and made things worse for some others. No joy on #3.
    So, a mixed result.
    But a couple dozen million people have insurance now that didn’t have it before. So, not the total failure you want to make it out to be.
    I’m OK with pushing it back to the states if that’s what folks want to do, because I live in MA, and what we had before is better than what we have now.
    Most places, you’ll probably end up worse off. But if folks want to go that way, fine with me. Some folks need to learn the hard way.
    Mostly, I’d love to see it come back to MA because it get national (R)’s the hell out of the discussion. We’re a commonwealth, we have a basic grasp of the idea of the common good. We’d get some useful stuff done.

  744. I fell asleep during that part of the feelie.
    Yeah, but the first one was pretty good.
    the ACA has failed in its goal
    Ahem..

    The law has 3 primary goals:

    • Make affordable health insurance available to more people. The law provides consumers with subsidies (“premium tax credits”) that lower costs for households with incomes between 100% and 400% of the federal poverty level.
    • Expand the Medicaid program to cover all adults with income below 138% of the federal poverty level. (Not all states have expanded their Medicaid programs.)
    • Support innovative medical care delivery methods designed to lower the costs of health care generally.

    I call it a solid win on #2. Mixed results on #1, it made things affordable for some folks, and made things worse for some others. No joy on #3.
    So, a mixed result.
    But a couple dozen million people have insurance now that didn’t have it before. So, not the total failure you want to make it out to be.
    I’m OK with pushing it back to the states if that’s what folks want to do, because I live in MA, and what we had before is better than what we have now.
    Most places, you’ll probably end up worse off. But if folks want to go that way, fine with me. Some folks need to learn the hard way.
    Mostly, I’d love to see it come back to MA because it get national (R)’s the hell out of the discussion. We’re a commonwealth, we have a basic grasp of the idea of the common good. We’d get some useful stuff done.

  745. damn, russell. hope they can straighten that out for you!
    Actually, the visuals are kind of fun. 🙂

  746. damn, russell. hope they can straighten that out for you!
    Actually, the visuals are kind of fun. 🙂

  747. “so, why do you [Marty] keep trying to pretend that it’s a left-only problem?”
    Because whatever Marty dislikes about Trump, his fealty to Cleek’s Law trumps everything else?

  748. “so, why do you [Marty] keep trying to pretend that it’s a left-only problem?”
    Because whatever Marty dislikes about Trump, his fealty to Cleek’s Law trumps everything else?

  749. OMG, I wish I could go to watch this.
    Dueling Illinois Nazis, a big old bag of popcorn, and maybe a Smutty Old Brown Dog or two.
    Heaven.

  750. OMG, I wish I could go to watch this.
    Dueling Illinois Nazis, a big old bag of popcorn, and maybe a Smutty Old Brown Dog or two.
    Heaven.

  751. Actually 2 is problematic. No one talks about the fact that Medicaid costs have skyrocketed because the feds are paying 100% but the implementation is at the state level so cost per enrollee is way over the original estimate and even 50% over estimates from 2015. So 2 is negatively impacting the ability to flatten the cost curve because it’s an infinite pool of money. So now the states don’t want to give that up, surprise.

  752. Actually 2 is problematic. No one talks about the fact that Medicaid costs have skyrocketed because the feds are paying 100% but the implementation is at the state level so cost per enrollee is way over the original estimate and even 50% over estimates from 2015. So 2 is negatively impacting the ability to flatten the cost curve because it’s an infinite pool of money. So now the states don’t want to give that up, surprise.

  753. “so, why do you [Marty] keep trying to pretend that it’s a left-only problem?”
    Pretty sure I have never pretended any such thing.

  754. “so, why do you [Marty] keep trying to pretend that it’s a left-only problem?”
    Pretty sure I have never pretended any such thing.

  755. I wonder if they’ll all dance around shirtless, spitting milk on themselves? Because nothing strikes fear into the hearts of untermenschen like a dancing half-naked pasty frat boy with a fashy haircut, covered in milk and spit.
    Plus, Roger Stone. Will he show us all his Nixon tattoo?
    Seriously, I wish I could get a seat for this.

  756. I wonder if they’ll all dance around shirtless, spitting milk on themselves? Because nothing strikes fear into the hearts of untermenschen like a dancing half-naked pasty frat boy with a fashy haircut, covered in milk and spit.
    Plus, Roger Stone. Will he show us all his Nixon tattoo?
    Seriously, I wish I could get a seat for this.

  757. Huh, I have the visual migraine too, intermittently. It’s like the right hand half of the jagged line around “Kerpow” in the comics, lit up in neon. No pain, and it lasts about 10 minutes. Not the worst kind of migraine to have, but worrying when it first started. Started getting weird black floaters like spiders a few weeks ago, different to normal ones. Spent 4 hours in A&E at London’s best (and internationally well-known) eye hospital Moorefields, and ended up being reassured it’s “vitreous jelly” detaching, normal for my age (do women get to be geezers too? It doesn’t have much of an age connotation in English slang, by the way). Nothing to pay at the end of the tests etc, I hardly need to add.

  758. Huh, I have the visual migraine too, intermittently. It’s like the right hand half of the jagged line around “Kerpow” in the comics, lit up in neon. No pain, and it lasts about 10 minutes. Not the worst kind of migraine to have, but worrying when it first started. Started getting weird black floaters like spiders a few weeks ago, different to normal ones. Spent 4 hours in A&E at London’s best (and internationally well-known) eye hospital Moorefields, and ended up being reassured it’s “vitreous jelly” detaching, normal for my age (do women get to be geezers too? It doesn’t have much of an age connotation in English slang, by the way). Nothing to pay at the end of the tests etc, I hardly need to add.

  759. No one talks about the fact that Medicaid costs have skyrocketed…
    Here is the thing.
    Medical costs in this country are very high. There are a variety of reasons for that. There are various ways to address that.
    Passing the hot potato of “who has to pay” around is not among those ways.
    It doesn’t matter if the feds pay, or the states pay, or private employers pay, or if you and I pay out of pocket. People get sick, they need to go to the doctor, they are in general going to do whatever they need to do to go.
    Either that, or, at the margin, they will just not go, and they’ll get sick and die.
    It is a domain ruled by highly inelastic demand. Nobody talks about that.
    Another thing that nobody talks about is managing the prices that providers and pharma can charge. Nobody talks about directing resources to less-lucrative but highly beneficial practices like general medicine, instead of more lucrative specializations.
    Nobody talks, at all, ever, about doing anything to motivate providers to charge less.
    It’s all we can f’ing do to get people to consider not letting providers refer their patients for expensive procedures that they personally profit from, or that generate kickbacks to them. It’s beyond us to prevent docs from prescribing drugs to people which just happen to be marketed by companies that fly those same docs off to “seminars” in lovely Caribbean resorts.
    Etc etc etc.
    Medical costs grow because people will pay whatever the cost is up to and including their last dime when their lives are at stake, and they grow because we don’t do anything to constrain or manage them. Arguing about who ends up with the bill doesn’t seem to address that, as far as I can tell.

  760. No one talks about the fact that Medicaid costs have skyrocketed…
    Here is the thing.
    Medical costs in this country are very high. There are a variety of reasons for that. There are various ways to address that.
    Passing the hot potato of “who has to pay” around is not among those ways.
    It doesn’t matter if the feds pay, or the states pay, or private employers pay, or if you and I pay out of pocket. People get sick, they need to go to the doctor, they are in general going to do whatever they need to do to go.
    Either that, or, at the margin, they will just not go, and they’ll get sick and die.
    It is a domain ruled by highly inelastic demand. Nobody talks about that.
    Another thing that nobody talks about is managing the prices that providers and pharma can charge. Nobody talks about directing resources to less-lucrative but highly beneficial practices like general medicine, instead of more lucrative specializations.
    Nobody talks, at all, ever, about doing anything to motivate providers to charge less.
    It’s all we can f’ing do to get people to consider not letting providers refer their patients for expensive procedures that they personally profit from, or that generate kickbacks to them. It’s beyond us to prevent docs from prescribing drugs to people which just happen to be marketed by companies that fly those same docs off to “seminars” in lovely Caribbean resorts.
    Etc etc etc.
    Medical costs grow because people will pay whatever the cost is up to and including their last dime when their lives are at stake, and they grow because we don’t do anything to constrain or manage them. Arguing about who ends up with the bill doesn’t seem to address that, as far as I can tell.

  763. russell, an interesting, possibly, aside. I ha migraines most of my life (I can remember having them at 9) but never thought much about them. I would takes it stuff, it would hurt less and I went on with my life. FF to 42 when I complained that I had a headache to my new PCP, he suggested migraine medicine based on my history, so sure why not.
    I took the medicine and 30 minutes later I was stunned, I simply told my wife it was interesting to find out what it was like to have NO headache,for the first time in memory. It really blew my mind because I had just adjusted to always having one, at some level, from what I considered normal to really bad. But I realized never NO headache.

  764. russell, an interesting, possibly, aside. I ha migraines most of my life (I can remember having them at 9) but never thought much about them. I would takes it stuff, it would hurt less and I went on with my life. FF to 42 when I complained that I had a headache to my new PCP, he suggested migraine medicine based on my history, so sure why not.
    I took the medicine and 30 minutes later I was stunned, I simply told my wife it was interesting to find out what it was like to have NO headache,for the first time in memory. It really blew my mind because I had just adjusted to always having one, at some level, from what I considered normal to really bad. But I realized never NO headache.

  767. I took the medicine and 30 minutes later I was stunned, I simply told my wife it was interesting to find out what it was like to have NO headache
    !!!!
    cool.
    I’m looking forward to seeing what the neuro doc has to say. Maybe it’ll be as simple as a med!!
    Thanks for the good wishes Marty, back atcha.

  768. I took the medicine and 30 minutes later I was stunned, I simply told my wife it was interesting to find out what it was like to have NO headache
    !!!!
    cool.
    I’m looking forward to seeing what the neuro doc has to say. Maybe it’ll be as simple as a med!!
    Thanks for the good wishes Marty, back atcha.

  769. Three areas where government, even in a very democratic country, has had huge negative impacts on people’s lives.

    “‘America’s War on Drugs’ is an immersive trip through the last five decades, uncovering how the CIA, obsessed with keeping America safe in the fight against communism, allied itself with the mafia and foreign drug traffickers. In exchange for support against foreign enemies, the groups were allowed to grow their drug trade in the United States. The series explores the unintended consequences of when gangsters, warlords, spies, outlaw entrepreneurs, street gangs and politicians vie for power and control of the global black market for narcotics – all told through the firsthand accounts of former CIA and DEA officers, major drug traffickers, gang members, noted experts and insiders.”

    America’s War On Drugs

    “In this groundbreaking history of the modern American metropolis, Richard Rothstein, a leading authority on housing policy, explodes the myth that America’s cities came to be racially divided through de facto segregation―that is, through individual prejudices, income differences, or the actions of private institutions like banks and real estate agencies. Rather, The Color of Law incontrovertibly makes clear that it was de jure segregation―the laws and policy decisions passed by local, state, and federal governments―that actually promoted the discriminatory patterns that continue to this day.”

    The Color of Law: A Forgotten History of How Our Government Segregated America

    “In the 1970s, the United States had an incarceration rate comparable to those of other liberal democracies-and that rate had held steady for over 100 years. Yet today, though the US is home to only about 5 percent of the world’s population, we hold nearly one quarter of its prisoners. Mass incarceration is now widely considered one of the biggest social and political crises of our age. How did we get to this point?”

    Locked In: The True Causes of Mass Incarceration—and How to Achieve Real Reform

  770. Three areas where government, even in a very democratic country, has had huge negative impacts on people’s lives.

    “‘America’s War on Drugs’ is an immersive trip through the last five decades, uncovering how the CIA, obsessed with keeping America safe in the fight against communism, allied itself with the mafia and foreign drug traffickers. In exchange for support against foreign enemies, the groups were allowed to grow their drug trade in the United States. The series explores the unintended consequences of when gangsters, warlords, spies, outlaw entrepreneurs, street gangs and politicians vie for power and control of the global black market for narcotics – all told through the firsthand accounts of former CIA and DEA officers, major drug traffickers, gang members, noted experts and insiders.”

    America’s War On Drugs

    “In this groundbreaking history of the modern American metropolis, Richard Rothstein, a leading authority on housing policy, explodes the myth that America’s cities came to be racially divided through de facto segregation―that is, through individual prejudices, income differences, or the actions of private institutions like banks and real estate agencies. Rather, The Color of Law incontrovertibly makes clear that it was de jure segregation―the laws and policy decisions passed by local, state, and federal governments―that actually promoted the discriminatory patterns that continue to this day.”

    The Color of Law: A Forgotten History of How Our Government Segregated America

    “In the 1970s, the United States had an incarceration rate comparable to those of other liberal democracies-and that rate had held steady for over 100 years. Yet today, though the US is home to only about 5 percent of the world’s population, we hold nearly one quarter of its prisoners. Mass incarceration is now widely considered one of the biggest social and political crises of our age. How did we get to this point?”

    Locked In: The True Causes of Mass Incarceration—and How to Achieve Real Reform

  773. Three areas where government, even in a very democratic country, has had huge negative impacts on people’s lives.
    and?

  774. Three areas where government, even in a very democratic country, has had huge negative impacts on people’s lives.
    and?

  775. “the laws and policy decisions passed by local, state, and federal governments.”
    This must have been before there was such a thing as voting.
    I’m on the wait list for the book at my local library, but it’s a governmental instrument that’s got nothing to do with me, somehow growing like a mushroom with no input from me, so I’m sure they’ll destroy all of the copies before they let me read it.
    The smallish, inobtrusive government of texas apparently has nought to do with its citizens’ wishes and goes about its business in the dead of night:
    https://www.texasobserver.org/segregation-in-texas-cities/
    https://news.utexas.edu/2013/08/13/study-shows-jim-crow-era-segregation-persists-in-texas-schools
    http://www.salon.com/2014/08/04/texas_public_school_disaster_how_segregation_and_cuts_are_gutting_the_system/
    In that case, time to overthrow it with savage violence.

  776. “the laws and policy decisions passed by local, state, and federal governments.”
    This must have been before there was such a thing as voting.
    I’m on the wait list for the book at my local library, but it’s a governmental instrument that’s got nothing to do with me, somehow growing like a mushroom with no input from me, so I’m sure they’ll destroy all of the copies before they let me read it.
    The smallish, inobtrusive government of texas apparently has nought to do with its citizens’ wishes and goes about its business in the dead of night:
    https://www.texasobserver.org/segregation-in-texas-cities/
    https://news.utexas.edu/2013/08/13/study-shows-jim-crow-era-segregation-persists-in-texas-schools
    http://www.salon.com/2014/08/04/texas_public_school_disaster_how_segregation_and_cuts_are_gutting_the_system/
    In that case, time to overthrow it with savage violence.

  777. On November 8, 2016 subhuman assholes and shitheads outnumbered decent people in a stolen election. On that date, the government began acting and shapeshifting itself to look and act more like subhuman assholes and shitheads than decent people.
    Must have been a coincidence that for many decent people, life became instantly more difficult:
    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/06/26/fighting-for-the-immigrants-of-little-pakistan
    1000 cites today, a thousand more tomorrow.

  778. On November 8, 2016 subhuman assholes and shitheads outnumbered decent people in a stolen election. On that date, the government began acting and shapeshifting itself to look and act more like subhuman assholes and shitheads than decent people.
    Must have been a coincidence that for many decent people, life became instantly more difficult:
    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/06/26/fighting-for-the-immigrants-of-little-pakistan
    1000 cites today, a thousand more tomorrow.

  779. and?
    I know it’s a bit of but, what aboutism, but many of you, except for criticism of your ideological adversaries in government, seem to give an inordinate amount of attention to private sphere actors, while ignoring the institution that has the greatest power to damage people’s lives.

  780. and?
    I know it’s a bit of but, what aboutism, but many of you, except for criticism of your ideological adversaries in government, seem to give an inordinate amount of attention to private sphere actors, while ignoring the institution that has the greatest power to damage people’s lives.

  781. The greatest power to damage perhaps, but conversely the greatest power to ameliorate.

  782. The greatest power to damage perhaps, but conversely the greatest power to ameliorate.

  783. GftNC, my counter is:
    “A government big enough to give you everything you want, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have.”
    🙂

  784. GftNC, my counter is:
    “A government big enough to give you everything you want, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have.”
    🙂

  785. “while ignoring the institution that has the greatest power to damage people’s lives.”
    I’m sure that without government and laws, we humans could manage very well on our own to damage each other’s lives.
    As many do within the confines of their own families.
    I’ll concede that organization of one kind or another can do damage more efficiently and with scale.

  786. “while ignoring the institution that has the greatest power to damage people’s lives.”
    I’m sure that without government and laws, we humans could manage very well on our own to damage each other’s lives.
    As many do within the confines of their own families.
    I’ll concede that organization of one kind or another can do damage more efficiently and with scale.

  787. I was stunned, I simply told my wife it was interesting to find out what it was like to have NO headache,for the first time in memory. It really blew my mind because I had just adjusted to always having one, at some level, from what I considered normal to really bad. But I realized never NO headache.
    swap discrimination for headache and see what obtains…

  788. I was stunned, I simply told my wife it was interesting to find out what it was like to have NO headache,for the first time in memory. It really blew my mind because I had just adjusted to always having one, at some level, from what I considered normal to really bad. But I realized never NO headache.
    swap discrimination for headache and see what obtains…

  791. I don’t know how clear it is from within the USA how COMPLETELY INSANE your healthcare debate is. The US spends nearly twice as much per person as any other developed nation, and doesn’t even manage to give everyone a basic standard of healthcare. And here you are discussing a new law which moves the current, bad, law in exactly the wrong direction. If passed, it will exclude millions of people from non-emergency care, and make it even more ruinously expensive for millions more.
    There are two things you should be talking about First, how to get healthcare for everyone. Second, how to stop it being so ridiculously expensive. The first is easy: you have to have an approach in which insurance costs are independent of expected treatment costs. Look at Germany for example. The second is harder: your whole system is a clusterfuck of overpricing and unnecessary costs. It can be done over time, if you concentrate on what you’re trying to achieve, and you’re willing to take profits away from some of the corporates who fund politicians.
    Every one of you should be looking at the healthcare systems of northwest Europe, picking one you like, and asking whichever politicians you get to vote for why you can’t have the same.

  792. I don’t know how clear it is from within the USA how COMPLETELY INSANE your healthcare debate is. The US spends nearly twice as much per person as any other developed nation, and doesn’t even manage to give everyone a basic standard of healthcare. And here you are discussing a new law which moves the current, bad, law in exactly the wrong direction. If passed, it will exclude millions of people from non-emergency care, and make it even more ruinously expensive for millions more.
    There are two things you should be talking about First, how to get healthcare for everyone. Second, how to stop it being so ridiculously expensive. The first is easy: you have to have an approach in which insurance costs are independent of expected treatment costs. Look at Germany for example. The second is harder: your whole system is a clusterfuck of overpricing and unnecessary costs. It can be done over time, if you concentrate on what you’re trying to achieve, and you’re willing to take profits away from some of the corporates who fund politicians.
    Every one of you should be looking at the healthcare systems of northwest Europe, picking one you like, and asking whichever politicians you get to vote for why you can’t have the same.

  793. Pro Bono, you are forgetting about “American Exceptionalism”.
    As in “exceptionally ignorant” and “exceptionally evil”.

  794. Pro Bono, you are forgetting about “American Exceptionalism”.
    As in “exceptionally ignorant” and “exceptionally evil”.

  795. GftNC, regarding your 10:02 AM:
    Hey, you know you rock. I love the fact that you comment here – please don’t ever take my rants personally.
    But, yeah, Nancy Smash is a hero, and so was Harry Reid. Remember how much bullshit is cast their way.
    I was away today at a cooking class (out in the country) that was amazing. If anyone ever finds her/himself planning a visit to the greater Charlottesville area, please let me know. There are some lovely folks here, and the ones I saw today support the IRC in a huge way. Lots of hope from that.

  796. GftNC, regarding your 10:02 AM:
    Hey, you know you rock. I love the fact that you comment here – please don’t ever take my rants personally.
    But, yeah, Nancy Smash is a hero, and so was Harry Reid. Remember how much bullshit is cast their way.
    I was away today at a cooking class (out in the country) that was amazing. If anyone ever finds her/himself planning a visit to the greater Charlottesville area, please let me know. There are some lovely folks here, and the ones I saw today support the IRC in a huge way. Lots of hope from that.

  797. Thank you sapient, yet again. Yes the IRC seems to be a great organisation – if only their head, David milliband, had not been beaten to the Labour leadership by his brother Ed, we might have had a labour government and no fucking Brexit. But this is of course mere speculation, and plenty of people would disagree that he could have won (a Labour activist friend said to me only a few days ago “he wouldn’t have won – he can’t speak human!).

  798. Thank you sapient, yet again. Yes the IRC seems to be a great organisation – if only their head, David milliband, had not been beaten to the Labour leadership by his brother Ed, we might have had a labour government and no fucking Brexit. But this is of course mere speculation, and plenty of people would disagree that he could have won (a Labour activist friend said to me only a few days ago “he wouldn’t have won – he can’t speak human!).

  799. @Pro Bono at 7:41: gee, it’s so simple! And no one over here ever thought of any of that! We’ll get right on it.
    *****
    Sorry, this isn’t personal, I like Pro Bono’s comments as a rule. But this thread has been making me feel this way over and over again.
    I am so very very tired of people pointing out what “we” (or in this case “you”) should do to fix everything (Lilla’s column was another trigger, even worse because it was from the pundit-on-high, I’m-not-accusing-anyone-of-anything-but-I-do-know-better-than-you-dimwits ivory tower, where people sit around and dream up brilliant innovative ideas like teaching kids civics).
    Many years ago when my kids were small, we had started to go to a UU church. One Sunday at “Joys and Concerns” time, when people could get up and say what was on their minds that week, a woman got up and takled about the war in Bosnia. She ended with a passionate plea: “We *have* to do something about Bosnia.”
    All I could think as I sat there was: I can’t even get my kids to stop squabbling. WTF does she think “we” are going to “do” about Bosnia?
    /rant

  800. @Pro Bono at 7:41: gee, it’s so simple! And no one over here ever thought of any of that! We’ll get right on it.
    *****
    Sorry, this isn’t personal, I like Pro Bono’s comments as a rule. But this thread has been making me feel this way over and over again.
    I am so very very tired of people pointing out what “we” (or in this case “you”) should do to fix everything (Lilla’s column was another trigger, even worse because it was from the pundit-on-high, I’m-not-accusing-anyone-of-anything-but-I-do-know-better-than-you-dimwits ivory tower, where people sit around and dream up brilliant innovative ideas like teaching kids civics).
    Many years ago when my kids were small, we had started to go to a UU church. One Sunday at “Joys and Concerns” time, when people could get up and say what was on their minds that week, a woman got up and takled about the war in Bosnia. She ended with a passionate plea: “We *have* to do something about Bosnia.”
    All I could think as I sat there was: I can’t even get my kids to stop squabbling. WTF does she think “we” are going to “do” about Bosnia?
    /rant

  801. Glad we’re friends, GftNC. I mean that sincerely.
    Also, I do go on, and actually enjoy some controversy, so don’t hold back.

  802. Glad we’re friends, GftNC. I mean that sincerely.
    Also, I do go on, and actually enjoy some controversy, so don’t hold back.

  803. JanieM: yes of course, you’re right. If it were easy, you’d have done it already. And I can’t stop my children squabbling either.
    I was just trying to say how it looks from outside.

  804. JanieM: yes of course, you’re right. If it were easy, you’d have done it already. And I can’t stop my children squabbling either.
    I was just trying to say how it looks from outside.

  805. Thanks, Pro Bono. I shouldn’t have used you as my punching bag. Sometimes I don’t even realize how bad a mood I’m in until I’ve already flown off the handle for no good reason.
    Needless to say, I didn’t last too many years in a UU church. 😉

  806. Thanks, Pro Bono. I shouldn’t have used you as my punching bag. Sometimes I don’t even realize how bad a mood I’m in until I’ve already flown off the handle for no good reason.
    Needless to say, I didn’t last too many years in a UU church. 😉

  807. the institution that has the greatest power to damage people’s lives.
    Of all the institutions that have the ability to screw me over, I find government to be the one with which I have the greatest leverage.
    Believe it or not.
    I don’t discount your points, they have merit. The government has a freaking army, and I don’t. Advantage government.
    But in general, most of my points of contact with the government – any government at any level – are generally positive.
    All of that said, I’m a straight white married 60 year old male with a good white collar job, a tidy little suburban ranch house, and a little bit of money. Other folks MMV, and it does.
    Every one of you should be looking at the healthcare systems of northwest Europe, picking one you like, and asking whichever politicians you get to vote for why you can’t have the same.
    My friend, if you only knew. Keep saying it until it sinks in!
    Needless to say, I didn’t last too many years in a UU church. 😉
    Haha!!
    My wife and I attend a UU chuch in Salem. We don’t do joys and concerns. Thankfully.
    Nonetheless, there’s still plenty of “we *must* do something about [fill in the blank]”. It’s definitely a thing.
    I like it because there is no creed. I used up all of my creed tickets long, long ago, I have none left, so the place we go suits me OK.
    Did I mention no joys and concerns?
    The UU’s are all stirred up these days because the head of the denomination wasn’t hiring enough minorities. Even though he, himself, is Hispanic. And even though the leadership of the denomination is actually pretty diverse. The man had to stand down, it was such a hot button issue.
    Note that, if you go into a UU church, anywhere, on any Sunday morning, you are likely to be greeted by a lot of white middle class faces.
    The lack of self-awareness is, as it turns out, a general and widespread human condition.
    In any case, I get to be a member of the Unitarian Jihad. Brother Neutron Bomb of Kindly Thoughts at your service.
    That alone is worth it, to me.
    🙂

  808. the institution that has the greatest power to damage people’s lives.
    Of all the institutions that have the ability to screw me over, I find government to be the one with which I have the greatest leverage.
    Believe it or not.
    I don’t discount your points, they have merit. The government has a freaking army, and I don’t. Advantage government.
    But in general, most of my points of contact with the government – any government at any level – are generally positive.
    All of that said, I’m a straight white married 60 year old male with a good white collar job, a tidy little suburban ranch house, and a little bit of money. Other folks MMV, and it does.
    Every one of you should be looking at the healthcare systems of northwest Europe, picking one you like, and asking whichever politicians you get to vote for why you can’t have the same.
    My friend, if you only knew. Keep saying it until it sinks in!
    Needless to say, I didn’t last too many years in a UU church. 😉
    Haha!!
    My wife and I attend a UU chuch in Salem. We don’t do joys and concerns. Thankfully.
    Nonetheless, there’s still plenty of “we *must* do something about [fill in the blank]”. It’s definitely a thing.
    I like it because there is no creed. I used up all of my creed tickets long, long ago, I have none left, so the place we go suits me OK.
    Did I mention no joys and concerns?
    The UU’s are all stirred up these days because the head of the denomination wasn’t hiring enough minorities. Even though he, himself, is Hispanic. And even though the leadership of the denomination is actually pretty diverse. The man had to stand down, it was such a hot button issue.
    Note that, if you go into a UU church, anywhere, on any Sunday morning, you are likely to be greeted by a lot of white middle class faces.
    The lack of self-awareness is, as it turns out, a general and widespread human condition.
    In any case, I get to be a member of the Unitarian Jihad. Brother Neutron Bomb of Kindly Thoughts at your service.
    That alone is worth it, to me.
    🙂

  809. the ACA has failed in its goal
    Someone recently reminded me how much folks in Kentucky love their Kynect. It occurs to me to wonder, how will they react when they realize that their senior Senator was the mastermind behind blowing it away. (But maybe McConnell was planning to retire anyway….)

  810. the ACA has failed in its goal
    Someone recently reminded me how much folks in Kentucky love their Kynect. It occurs to me to wonder, how will they react when they realize that their senior Senator was the mastermind behind blowing it away. (But maybe McConnell was planning to retire anyway….)

  811. Ha ha ha !!
    Next up:
    “Yes, Putin’s personal banker bailed my sorry ass out. Why didn’t Obama’s SEC prevent that?!?”
    Sad!
    I gotta give the man credit, he has chutzpah for days.

  812. Ha ha ha !!
    Next up:
    “Yes, Putin’s personal banker bailed my sorry ass out. Why didn’t Obama’s SEC prevent that?!?”
    Sad!
    I gotta give the man credit, he has chutzpah for days.

  813. how will they react when they realize that their senior Senator was the mastermind behind blowing it away.
    If history is any predictor, they will vote him in.
    Not enough 2×4’s upside the head yet. Maybe they should be teaching Aeschylus in the schools, instead of talking about Jesus riding the dinosaurs.
    It’s a brain fever. I’m just waiting for it to run its course. I’m not sure it will.

  814. how will they react when they realize that their senior Senator was the mastermind behind blowing it away.
    If history is any predictor, they will vote him in.
    Not enough 2×4’s upside the head yet. Maybe they should be teaching Aeschylus in the schools, instead of talking about Jesus riding the dinosaurs.
    It’s a brain fever. I’m just waiting for it to run its course. I’m not sure it will.

  815. You have to be careful not to cross really radical UU members. They might burn a question mark on your lawn…

  816. You have to be careful not to cross really radical UU members. They might burn a question mark on your lawn…

  817. The UU’s are all stirred up these days because the head of the denomination wasn’t hiring enough minorities. Even though he, himself, is Hispanic. And even though the leadership of the denomination is actually pretty diverse. The man had to stand down, it was such a hot button issue.
    Note that, if you go into a UU church, anywhere, on any Sunday morning, you are likely to be greeted by a lot of white middle class faces.
    The lack of self-awareness is, as it turns out, a general and widespread human condition.
    Was the leadership more diverse than the congregations? I can easily imagine that.
    Lack of self-awareness is possibly our most fatal flaw as a species. I firmly believe that about 98% of what we do is done for reasons built into our neurons, our cells, our DNA, that are not accessible to consciousness.
    FSM help us, we just have to keep plugging away I guess.

  818. The UU’s are all stirred up these days because the head of the denomination wasn’t hiring enough minorities. Even though he, himself, is Hispanic. And even though the leadership of the denomination is actually pretty diverse. The man had to stand down, it was such a hot button issue.
    Note that, if you go into a UU church, anywhere, on any Sunday morning, you are likely to be greeted by a lot of white middle class faces.
    The lack of self-awareness is, as it turns out, a general and widespread human condition.
    Was the leadership more diverse than the congregations? I can easily imagine that.
    Lack of self-awareness is possibly our most fatal flaw as a species. I firmly believe that about 98% of what we do is done for reasons built into our neurons, our cells, our DNA, that are not accessible to consciousness.
    FSM help us, we just have to keep plugging away I guess.

  819. You have to be careful not to cross really radical UU members. They might burn a question mark on your lawn…
    I love this. Do you mind if I use this?
    Was the leadership more diverse than the congregations?
    Yes, notably so.
    FSM help us, we just have to keep plugging away I guess.
    May we all be touched by his noodly appendage.

  820. You have to be careful not to cross really radical UU members. They might burn a question mark on your lawn…
    I love this. Do you mind if I use this?
    Was the leadership more diverse than the congregations?
    Yes, notably so.
    FSM help us, we just have to keep plugging away I guess.
    May we all be touched by his noodly appendage.

  821. I love this. Do you mind if I use this?
    I don’t mind. I think there are versions of it in the public domain. 🙂

  822. I love this. Do you mind if I use this?
    I don’t mind. I think there are versions of it in the public domain. 🙂

  825. UU: Sounds rather like the Church of England. When a witness, misunderstanding the question in court “would you like to swear the oath or affirm?” was asked kindly by the judge (a friend of mine) “do you have a religion?“, he replied “oh no, I’m C of E!”
    JanieM, I understand your frustration with the thrashing around some of us do around here when trying to make sense of appalling developments (Trump’s victory, US health care debacle etc). I suppose it’s that I can’t see another alternative to either “oh no, woe is us” or “this is happening, maybe if we do a b or c we can avoid it happening in the future”. Obviously a, b or c are not usually completely new, genius solutions, or even necessarily practicable, but talking around them seems preferable to me to dwelling only on the “woe is us” side of the story. This may just be a character difference of course, I acknowledge for example that I am by nature a problem-solver and control freak, a combination that is made intensely uncomfortable when contemplating a bad situation with no apparent way to make it better. Of course, there may be a better alternative than the two modes I have sketched out, but if so it’s obviously escaped me, for one!

  826. UU: Sounds rather like the Church of England. When a witness, misunderstanding the question in court “would you like to swear the oath or affirm?” was asked kindly by the judge (a friend of mine) “do you have a religion?“, he replied “oh no, I’m C of E!”
    JanieM, I understand your frustration with the thrashing around some of us do around here when trying to make sense of appalling developments (Trump’s victory, US health care debacle etc). I suppose it’s that I can’t see another alternative to either “oh no, woe is us” or “this is happening, maybe if we do a b or c we can avoid it happening in the future”. Obviously a, b or c are not usually completely new, genius solutions, or even necessarily practicable, but talking around them seems preferable to me to dwelling only on the “woe is us” side of the story. This may just be a character difference of course, I acknowledge for example that I am by nature a problem-solver and control freak, a combination that is made intensely uncomfortable when contemplating a bad situation with no apparent way to make it better. Of course, there may be a better alternative than the two modes I have sketched out, but if so it’s obviously escaped me, for one!

  827. Yeah, Obama had evidence that Putin was interfering with the US election.
    He *could* have ordered a drone-strike on the US end of the Russia-to-USA influence pipeline, but he didn’t. even. try.
    I sure hope that Trump deals more forcefully with stuff like that; he can start with the horrible leaks coming out of the White House, by ordering a drone strike on IP address 127.0.0.1.
    That’s where all the trouble is coming from.

  828. Yeah, Obama had evidence that Putin was interfering with the US election.
    He *could* have ordered a drone-strike on the US end of the Russia-to-USA influence pipeline, but he didn’t. even. try.
    I sure hope that Trump deals more forcefully with stuff like that; he can start with the horrible leaks coming out of the White House, by ordering a drone strike on IP address 127.0.0.1.
    That’s where all the trouble is coming from.

  829. while ignoring the institution that has the greatest power to damage people’s lives
    that’s a really strange assessment of the govt, IMO. it has the ability to write laws that could damage all our lives, certainly. it also has the power, which it has exercised frequently, to make all our lives better.
    it builds the roads that i’m going to later use to drive to the store where i’ll buy food that has been made to govt-mandated safety standards, packaged with govt-mandated labels (so i know what’s in it), then i’ll drive back in my car that’s full of govt-mandated safety features on the roads that are policed by govt actors in order to keep things as safe as can be expected from a bunch of monkeys in high-powered metal boxes.
    if there’s a problem with any of that, i’ll take it up with the government.
    can things go wrong? yes. show me something perfect and i’ll show you something useless.

  830. while ignoring the institution that has the greatest power to damage people’s lives
    that’s a really strange assessment of the govt, IMO. it has the ability to write laws that could damage all our lives, certainly. it also has the power, which it has exercised frequently, to make all our lives better.
    it builds the roads that i’m going to later use to drive to the store where i’ll buy food that has been made to govt-mandated safety standards, packaged with govt-mandated labels (so i know what’s in it), then i’ll drive back in my car that’s full of govt-mandated safety features on the roads that are policed by govt actors in order to keep things as safe as can be expected from a bunch of monkeys in high-powered metal boxes.
    if there’s a problem with any of that, i’ll take it up with the government.
    can things go wrong? yes. show me something perfect and i’ll show you something useless.

  831. GftNC: I understand your frustration with the thrashing around some of us do around here…
    This is why it’s always better to write at least a novella when sounding off. (I mean me, not you.)
    It isn’t “people around here” that frustrate me for the most part, it’s more the pontificating pundit class, or a certain breed of activist who is sure that if you just do it her way, all will be well. (I do that myself sometimes, or did when I was younger.)
    I’m always saying this, but I will try to write more later; I’m off to Sunday brunch right now. I think I have a time frame problem: I get up (“late,” because I’m a night person) and see interesting things to respond to, but I’m already up so much later than everyone else that there’s usually work to tend to, and by the time the work is done…all I want to do is go outside or read a good book.
    So … *maybe* more later. It’s a beautiful day here in New England, I hope everyone else is having a nice one too.

  832. GftNC: I understand your frustration with the thrashing around some of us do around here…
    This is why it’s always better to write at least a novella when sounding off. (I mean me, not you.)
    It isn’t “people around here” that frustrate me for the most part, it’s more the pontificating pundit class, or a certain breed of activist who is sure that if you just do it her way, all will be well. (I do that myself sometimes, or did when I was younger.)
    I’m always saying this, but I will try to write more later; I’m off to Sunday brunch right now. I think I have a time frame problem: I get up (“late,” because I’m a night person) and see interesting things to respond to, but I’m already up so much later than everyone else that there’s usually work to tend to, and by the time the work is done…all I want to do is go outside or read a good book.
    So … *maybe* more later. It’s a beautiful day here in New England, I hope everyone else is having a nice one too.

  833. Local governments are the ones that have the most impact (for good or ill) on people’s lives.
    The ‘Libertarian’ alternative to a local government is a ‘Homeowners Association’ (HOA). But HOAs can easily be as tyrannical and unaccountable as the worst local government. (and yes, HOAs can call upon the organs of the state to apply force, deadly force, if they want; they just have to pick up the phone instead of shout out the door of City Hall).
    Plus, no reason for HOA little tin dictators to care about how it will affect their future political career, forget about the usual constitutional protection of citizen rights, and all the democratic accountability of corporate boards of directors.

  834. Local governments are the ones that have the most impact (for good or ill) on people’s lives.
    The ‘Libertarian’ alternative to a local government is a ‘Homeowners Association’ (HOA). But HOAs can easily be as tyrannical and unaccountable as the worst local government. (and yes, HOAs can call upon the organs of the state to apply force, deadly force, if they want; they just have to pick up the phone instead of shout out the door of City Hall).
    Plus, no reason for HOA little tin dictators to care about how it will affect their future political career, forget about the usual constitutional protection of citizen rights, and all the democratic accountability of corporate boards of directors.

  835. But HOAs can easily be as tyrannical and unaccountable as the worst local government.
    But much easier to vote with your feet than with governments.

  836. But HOAs can easily be as tyrannical and unaccountable as the worst local government.
    But much easier to vote with your feet than with governments.

  837. Double amputees and quadriplegics on Medicaid, on the other hand, are footless and fancy free.
    Governments will now be running from them.

  838. Double amputees and quadriplegics on Medicaid, on the other hand, are footless and fancy free.
    Governments will now be running from them.

  839. …, then i’ll drive back in my car that’s full of govt-mandated safety features…
    Like overly aggressive airbags that can severely injure or kill people. But it’s difficult to hold manufacturers responsible since they’re just following government regulations.

  840. …, then i’ll drive back in my car that’s full of govt-mandated safety features…
    Like overly aggressive airbags that can severely injure or kill people. But it’s difficult to hold manufacturers responsible since they’re just following government regulations.

  841. CharlesWT, do you also resent having to stop at a STOP sign at night at a wide intersection when there’s no other traffic in sight?

  842. CharlesWT, do you also resent having to stop at a STOP sign at night at a wide intersection when there’s no other traffic in sight?

  843. Apparently since, some years ago, I got several tickets for doing rolling stops at 2 in the morning. :}

  844. Apparently since, some years ago, I got several tickets for doing rolling stops at 2 in the morning. :}

  845. But much easier to vote with your feet than with governments.
    Selling a house and moving to a different place is not exactly what I would call easy.
    But it’s difficult to hold manufacturers responsible since they’re just following government regulations.
    Like it would be so much easier to hold manufacturers accountable without the collective power of government at your back.

  846. But much easier to vote with your feet than with governments.
    Selling a house and moving to a different place is not exactly what I would call easy.
    But it’s difficult to hold manufacturers responsible since they’re just following government regulations.
    Like it would be so much easier to hold manufacturers accountable without the collective power of government at your back.

  847. Like overly aggressive airbags that can severely injure or kill people
    are you being contrarian just for the sake of being contrarian ?

    NHTSA estimates … air bags saved 8,369 lives between 1987 and 2001.

    vs

    NHTSA recorded 238 deaths due to airbags between 1990 and 2002

  848. Like overly aggressive airbags that can severely injure or kill people
    are you being contrarian just for the sake of being contrarian ?

    NHTSA estimates … air bags saved 8,369 lives between 1987 and 2001.

    vs

    NHTSA recorded 238 deaths due to airbags between 1990 and 2002

  849. But if airbags (and airbag regulations) cause any deaths, they are obviously a “bad thing” — no matter how many lives they saved. For a true libertarian, any government regulations which are less than 100% perfect are unacceptable. And since perfection is in short supply in the real world….

  850. But if airbags (and airbag regulations) cause any deaths, they are obviously a “bad thing” — no matter how many lives they saved. For a true libertarian, any government regulations which are less than 100% perfect are unacceptable. And since perfection is in short supply in the real world….

  851. and let’s look at one of the least-regulated items in the US: guns!
    1300 children are killed every year by guns.

  852. and let’s look at one of the least-regulated items in the US: guns!
    1300 children are killed every year by guns.

  853. And CAFE standards kill a lot more people than airbags save. Airbags only partially offset the increased danger of smaller, lighter vehicles. About 46,000 deaths from 1978 to 2003. That has probably improved since then with better designs and technology. But smaller, lighter vehicles are always going to be more dangerous than larger, heavier ones.

  854. And CAFE standards kill a lot more people than airbags save. Airbags only partially offset the increased danger of smaller, lighter vehicles. About 46,000 deaths from 1978 to 2003. That has probably improved since then with better designs and technology. But smaller, lighter vehicles are always going to be more dangerous than larger, heavier ones.

  855. 1300 children are killed every year by guns.
    Eighty percent of which are teenagers shooting themselves and each other.

  856. 1300 children are killed every year by guns.
    Eighty percent of which are teenagers shooting themselves and each other.

  857. As we speak, the residents of La Paz County, Arizona are disabling their auto airbags, turn signals, mufflers, rear view mirrors, seat belts, and anti-lock braking systems and moving their gun-happy kids to Allen County, Ohio, amiright? Feets don’t fail them now!
    http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/06/over-50-trumpcare-will-raise-your-premiums-4500/
    “Eighty percent of which are teenagers shooting themselves and each other.”
    Are you supporting or countering the 1300-kid death toll here?

  858. As we speak, the residents of La Paz County, Arizona are disabling their auto airbags, turn signals, mufflers, rear view mirrors, seat belts, and anti-lock braking systems and moving their gun-happy kids to Allen County, Ohio, amiright? Feets don’t fail them now!
    http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/06/over-50-trumpcare-will-raise-your-premiums-4500/
    “Eighty percent of which are teenagers shooting themselves and each other.”
    Are you supporting or countering the 1300-kid death toll here?

  863. Are you supporting or countering the 1300-kid death toll here?
    Much of the teenagers shooting each other is due to the war on drugs and gang violence. That would be a whole lot easier to fix than making all the guns magically disappear.

  864. Are you supporting or countering the 1300-kid death toll here?
    Much of the teenagers shooting each other is due to the war on drugs and gang violence. That would be a whole lot easier to fix than making all the guns magically disappear.

  865. smaller, lighter vehicles are always going to be more dangerous than larger, heavier ones.
    LOL.
    that might be true if vehicles were just unstructured blobs of metal that we wedged ourselves into before being catapulted down the road. but they aren’t.
    wingnut myth: busted.
    Eighty percent of which are teenagers shooting themselves and each other.
    all of which are dead.
    nearly unregulated tool for killing kills multiple children every day. those deaths could be prevented by a few regulations around the storage of guns in houses with children.

  866. smaller, lighter vehicles are always going to be more dangerous than larger, heavier ones.
    LOL.
    that might be true if vehicles were just unstructured blobs of metal that we wedged ourselves into before being catapulted down the road. but they aren’t.
    wingnut myth: busted.
    Eighty percent of which are teenagers shooting themselves and each other.
    all of which are dead.
    nearly unregulated tool for killing kills multiple children every day. those deaths could be prevented by a few regulations around the storage of guns in houses with children.

  867. Like it would be so much easier to hold manufacturers accountable without the collective power of government at your back.
    Exactly.

  868. Like it would be so much easier to hold manufacturers accountable without the collective power of government at your back.
    Exactly.

  869. CAFE standards also SAVE lives in at least two ways: they reduce the need to go to war over oil, which was the original motivation; they also reduce CO2 emissions so that Earth stands a better chance to remain habitable for Libertarians as well as Republicans and Democrats.
    Some number of injuries and deaths in auto accidents is surely due to one of the drivers being distracted by talking on a cellphone. (Leave texting out; texting while driving is too stupid to be worth arguing about.) What, if anything, would True Libertarians accept as a government-imposed limitation on their cellphone use while driving? Keep in mind that a restriction of your liberty to use your cellphone in your car is also a restriction on my liberty to endanger you by using my cellphone in my car. And vice versa.
    –TP

  870. CAFE standards also SAVE lives in at least two ways: they reduce the need to go to war over oil, which was the original motivation; they also reduce CO2 emissions so that Earth stands a better chance to remain habitable for Libertarians as well as Republicans and Democrats.
    Some number of injuries and deaths in auto accidents is surely due to one of the drivers being distracted by talking on a cellphone. (Leave texting out; texting while driving is too stupid to be worth arguing about.) What, if anything, would True Libertarians accept as a government-imposed limitation on their cellphone use while driving? Keep in mind that a restriction of your liberty to use your cellphone in your car is also a restriction on my liberty to endanger you by using my cellphone in my car. And vice versa.
    –TP

  871. I just deleted a long comment on US gun laws. It is purely incomprehensible from outside the US how this situation has been able to go on so long, even more incomprehensible than your healthcare situation, I think. And, discretion very occasionally being the better part of valour, that’s all I’m going to say about it.

  872. I just deleted a long comment on US gun laws. It is purely incomprehensible from outside the US how this situation has been able to go on so long, even more incomprehensible than your healthcare situation, I think. And, discretion very occasionally being the better part of valour, that’s all I’m going to say about it.

  873. those deaths could be prevented by a few regulations around the storage of guns in houses with children.
    Which would do little or nothing to lessen the deaths from gangland killings.

  874. those deaths could be prevented by a few regulations around the storage of guns in houses with children.
    Which would do little or nothing to lessen the deaths from gangland killings.

  875. how this situation has been able to go on so long
    Briefly, in the early 1970s the National Rifle Association changed from their historical position of supporting gun control to adamantly opposing any and every kind of limitation on the ownership of guns. And they built an impressive lobbying and electioneering organization to push their new view.
    With lots of politicians living in fear of them, gun control efforts, especially at the national level, have failed.
    Their propaganda efforts are so effective that there are huge numbers of people who are convinced that utter tyranny will result from any kind of gun control. The fact that the US Army could smash any group which doesn’t have tanks and aircraft just doesn’t seem to penetrate.

  876. how this situation has been able to go on so long
    Briefly, in the early 1970s the National Rifle Association changed from their historical position of supporting gun control to adamantly opposing any and every kind of limitation on the ownership of guns. And they built an impressive lobbying and electioneering organization to push their new view.
    With lots of politicians living in fear of them, gun control efforts, especially at the national level, have failed.
    Their propaganda efforts are so effective that there are huge numbers of people who are convinced that utter tyranny will result from any kind of gun control. The fact that the US Army could smash any group which doesn’t have tanks and aircraft just doesn’t seem to penetrate.

  877. “So it’s ok for 238 people to die if it saves 8,369?”
    If the 238 are republicans, you betcha!
    It’s a proven fact that no one would have died in automobile and truck deaths over the past 110 plus years if the damn governments had minded their business not built all of those highways and byways to accommodate them.
    We can do this all day.
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/19/health/child-gun-violence-study/index.html
    It would be easier to treat all American boys with female hormone therapy than it would be to take their guns away, too.
    https://injury.research.chop.edu/violence-prevention-initiative/types-violence-involving-youth/gun-violence/gun-violence-facts-and#.WVAM21GQypo
    I agree that the War On Drugs should be curtailed sharply, but I can’t tell how that will affect mortality rates:
    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/drug-overdose-deaths-heroin-opioid-prescription-painkillers-more-than-guns/
    Methinks there is some magical thinking involved in the expected sanguine consequences of disappearing the war on drugs.
    If meth labs are legalized, may the FDA inspect them, or will that be another instance of the heavy hand of government? Can we depend on all of those high school science teachers quitting their jobs to provide quality control and truth in labeling or will thing be breaking bad?
    I’m wondering too about this 80% gang and drug-related figure bandied about. It seems to be sourced from a CDC report (we’ll leave aside conservative and libertarian claims that gummint can do nothing right, nor should it, but then quoting government studies to support their arguments), but the commentary following this Reddit post seems to refute the claim that the CDC report concludes any such thing:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Firearms/comments/23k9ju/80_of_gunrelated_deaths_nonsuicide_are_gang/

  878. “So it’s ok for 238 people to die if it saves 8,369?”
    If the 238 are republicans, you betcha!
    It’s a proven fact that no one would have died in automobile and truck deaths over the past 110 plus years if the damn governments had minded their business not built all of those highways and byways to accommodate them.
    We can do this all day.
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/19/health/child-gun-violence-study/index.html
    It would be easier to treat all American boys with female hormone therapy than it would be to take their guns away, too.
    https://injury.research.chop.edu/violence-prevention-initiative/types-violence-involving-youth/gun-violence/gun-violence-facts-and#.WVAM21GQypo
    I agree that the War On Drugs should be curtailed sharply, but I can’t tell how that will affect mortality rates:
    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/drug-overdose-deaths-heroin-opioid-prescription-painkillers-more-than-guns/
    Methinks there is some magical thinking involved in the expected sanguine consequences of disappearing the war on drugs.
    If meth labs are legalized, may the FDA inspect them, or will that be another instance of the heavy hand of government? Can we depend on all of those high school science teachers quitting their jobs to provide quality control and truth in labeling or will thing be breaking bad?
    I’m wondering too about this 80% gang and drug-related figure bandied about. It seems to be sourced from a CDC report (we’ll leave aside conservative and libertarian claims that gummint can do nothing right, nor should it, but then quoting government studies to support their arguments), but the commentary following this Reddit post seems to refute the claim that the CDC report concludes any such thing:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Firearms/comments/23k9ju/80_of_gunrelated_deaths_nonsuicide_are_gang/

  879. “those deaths could be prevented by a few regulations around the storage of guns in houses with children.”
    Charles: Which would do little or nothing to lessen the deaths from gangland killings
    What a beautiful example of the view that partial solutions to a problem must be rejected, on the grounds that they are not 100% solutions.

  880. “those deaths could be prevented by a few regulations around the storage of guns in houses with children.”
    Charles: Which would do little or nothing to lessen the deaths from gangland killings
    What a beautiful example of the view that partial solutions to a problem must be rejected, on the grounds that they are not 100% solutions.

  883. Methinks there is some magical thinking involved in the expected sanguine consequences of disappearing the war on drugs.
    It might be worthwhile to look at the last time we revoked a Prohibition (on alcohol, that time). What controls were put in place? And what was the impact on gang violence?
    No guarantee that this case would be identical. But it’s the best example to inform any predictions.

  884. Methinks there is some magical thinking involved in the expected sanguine consequences of disappearing the war on drugs.
    It might be worthwhile to look at the last time we revoked a Prohibition (on alcohol, that time). What controls were put in place? And what was the impact on gang violence?
    No guarantee that this case would be identical. But it’s the best example to inform any predictions.

  885. Thanks wj, and at the risk of being a know-it-all, I knew that. My original, deleted comment said “The NRA is evil” (shows you where I’m coming from), so my remark about the incomprehensibility was much more meta.

  886. Thanks wj, and at the risk of being a know-it-all, I knew that. My original, deleted comment said “The NRA is evil” (shows you where I’m coming from), so my remark about the incomprehensibility was much more meta.

  887. Janie, I was only addressing the question of why we haven’t changed. Not how we got our initial position.

  888. Janie, I was only addressing the question of why we haven’t changed. Not how we got our initial position.

  889. The fact that the US Army could smash any group which doesn’t have tanks and aircraft just doesn’t seem to penetrate.
    In asymmetrical warfare, the goal is not to win, but make it too expensive for the other side to win. Politicians and government officials might think twice about the wisdom of a war on citizens if, every time they stuck their head out, it got shot off. After all, there are hundreds of thousands, a few million sniper rifles in private hands.
    And a great many of the military would likely defect if ordered to fire on their fellow citizens. And take their weapons with them.

  890. The fact that the US Army could smash any group which doesn’t have tanks and aircraft just doesn’t seem to penetrate.
    In asymmetrical warfare, the goal is not to win, but make it too expensive for the other side to win. Politicians and government officials might think twice about the wisdom of a war on citizens if, every time they stuck their head out, it got shot off. After all, there are hundreds of thousands, a few million sniper rifles in private hands.
    And a great many of the military would likely defect if ordered to fire on their fellow citizens. And take their weapons with them.

  891. I don’t want to trouble the parents of the Sandy Hook kids more than they already have been by right wing murderous scum who are close to the President of the United States and the majority in Congress, but maybe we should exhume those children’s remains and determine what drugs they were on.

  892. I don’t want to trouble the parents of the Sandy Hook kids more than they already have been by right wing murderous scum who are close to the President of the United States and the majority in Congress, but maybe we should exhume those children’s remains and determine what drugs they were on.

  895. “Politicians and government officials might think twice about the wisdom of a war on citizens if, every time they stuck their head out, it got shot off. After all, there are hundreds of thousands, a few million sniper rifles in private hands.”
    The conservative and libertarian murderers who are about to remove medical insurance from tens of millions of armed Americans, thus declaring war on them, would do well to heed your advice.
    In fact we could go up and down the list of issues that 500 highly trained assassins under my direction (not that government which can’t do anything right could ever figure that out) could settle one shot-off head at a time.
    Besides, I doubt Steve Scalise is thinking twice about his agenda, which again, is why head shots are the better approach.
    I prefer poisoning, liberal demon that I am, but time is running out.
    You are talking to a guy (and his wife) whose office building was cased by Timothy McVeigh and Newt Gingrich, and whose good friend’s husband was murdered in the Oklahoma City Bombing, so I can handle whatever fucking pigshit firepower you wanna come after me with.

  896. “Politicians and government officials might think twice about the wisdom of a war on citizens if, every time they stuck their head out, it got shot off. After all, there are hundreds of thousands, a few million sniper rifles in private hands.”
    The conservative and libertarian murderers who are about to remove medical insurance from tens of millions of armed Americans, thus declaring war on them, would do well to heed your advice.
    In fact we could go up and down the list of issues that 500 highly trained assassins under my direction (not that government which can’t do anything right could ever figure that out) could settle one shot-off head at a time.
    Besides, I doubt Steve Scalise is thinking twice about his agenda, which again, is why head shots are the better approach.
    I prefer poisoning, liberal demon that I am, but time is running out.
    You are talking to a guy (and his wife) whose office building was cased by Timothy McVeigh and Newt Gingrich, and whose good friend’s husband was murdered in the Oklahoma City Bombing, so I can handle whatever fucking pigshit firepower you wanna come after me with.

  899. Which would do little or nothing to lessen the deaths from gangland killings.
    lookit them goalposts run!

  900. Which would do little or nothing to lessen the deaths from gangland killings.
    lookit them goalposts run!

  903. But smaller, lighter vehicles are always going to be more dangerous than larger, heavier ones
    Really? It seems to me that it’s much more dangerous to be driven into by the large, heavy ones.

  904. But smaller, lighter vehicles are always going to be more dangerous than larger, heavier ones
    Really? It seems to me that it’s much more dangerous to be driven into by the large, heavy ones.

  905. Really? It seems to me that it’s much more dangerous to be driven into by the large, heavy ones.
    Even if you eliminated the heavy vehicles, roadside objects, motorcycles, etc. don’t get any smaller.

  906. Really? It seems to me that it’s much more dangerous to be driven into by the large, heavy ones.
    Even if you eliminated the heavy vehicles, roadside objects, motorcycles, etc. don’t get any smaller.

  907. Even if you eliminated the heavy vehicles, roadside objects, motorcycles, etc. don’t get any smaller.
    no matter how large and heavy the vehicle is, people will still find ways to die in it. by your logic of “if ain’t perfect it’s wrong”, that vehicle will be deadly.
    and that would be a concern, if you were really arguing about saving lives, and not about the evil of regulation in general.

  908. Even if you eliminated the heavy vehicles, roadside objects, motorcycles, etc. don’t get any smaller.
    no matter how large and heavy the vehicle is, people will still find ways to die in it. by your logic of “if ain’t perfect it’s wrong”, that vehicle will be deadly.
    and that would be a concern, if you were really arguing about saving lives, and not about the evil of regulation in general.

  911. For anyone who is interested, this was in today’s Observer, with three pieces on the current situation in the Democratic party. Main piece by Heather Cox Richardson on the background, then a piece by Jean Hannah Edelstein subtitled (at least in the paper) View from the Left, then another piece by Michael Cohen subtitled (ditto) View from the Centre.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/25/civil-war-raging-inside-democratic-party

  912. For anyone who is interested, this was in today’s Observer, with three pieces on the current situation in the Democratic party. Main piece by Heather Cox Richardson on the background, then a piece by Jean Hannah Edelstein subtitled (at least in the paper) View from the Left, then another piece by Michael Cohen subtitled (ditto) View from the Centre.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/25/civil-war-raging-inside-democratic-party

  913. Regarding Democrats: there was recently a primary in Virginia. Little policy difference between the two candidates, although many hailed Perriello (a latecomer to the race, and for that reason seen as somewhat of an insurgent candidate) as the “Bernie” versus Northam’s “establishment”. (These labels were not actually true, but Perriello did get Bernie’s endorsement. But also John Podesta’s. So, not sure what it meant for the “Civil War”.) The candidates immediately did a unity tour after the election that Northam won.
    In any case, I am highly suspicious of people trying to magnify the divisions within the Democratic party. I voted for Perriello, but am thrilled to work for Northam (clearly a very compassionate person) againstRepublican thug, and gerrymandering king, Ed Gillespie. I’m pretty sure that most Perriello supporters feel similarly. Everyone I talked to about it just wanted a candidate who could win.
    I think people are trying to stoke unnecessary drama with this Civil War crap. Of course, like Putin’s trolls, it will probably serve to divide because everybody likes to take a side.

  914. Regarding Democrats: there was recently a primary in Virginia. Little policy difference between the two candidates, although many hailed Perriello (a latecomer to the race, and for that reason seen as somewhat of an insurgent candidate) as the “Bernie” versus Northam’s “establishment”. (These labels were not actually true, but Perriello did get Bernie’s endorsement. But also John Podesta’s. So, not sure what it meant for the “Civil War”.) The candidates immediately did a unity tour after the election that Northam won.
    In any case, I am highly suspicious of people trying to magnify the divisions within the Democratic party. I voted for Perriello, but am thrilled to work for Northam (clearly a very compassionate person) againstRepublican thug, and gerrymandering king, Ed Gillespie. I’m pretty sure that most Perriello supporters feel similarly. Everyone I talked to about it just wanted a candidate who could win.
    I think people are trying to stoke unnecessary drama with this Civil War crap. Of course, like Putin’s trolls, it will probably serve to divide because everybody likes to take a side.

  923. I remember European studies that normal cars are safer than heavy ones and heavy ones safer than light ones (given European standards of heavy, normal and light which might differ from US ones). One aspect that should not be forgotten is that people feel safer in heavy cars leading them to more reckless driving.
    In Germany it was once proverbial that Mercedes cars (Daimler-Benz) had a built-in right of way (because they could crush other cars*, and the owners were arrogant bas+ards).
    *crash tests also showed that the way they were built led to them disemboweling the opposition in case of a crash (“aggressive” crumple zone)

  924. I remember European studies that normal cars are safer than heavy ones and heavy ones safer than light ones (given European standards of heavy, normal and light which might differ from US ones). One aspect that should not be forgotten is that people feel safer in heavy cars leading them to more reckless driving.
    In Germany it was once proverbial that Mercedes cars (Daimler-Benz) had a built-in right of way (because they could crush other cars*, and the owners were arrogant bas+ards).
    *crash tests also showed that the way they were built led to them disemboweling the opposition in case of a crash (“aggressive” crumple zone)

  927. …, and the owners were arrogant bas+ards
    Or, the difference between a porcupine and a Mercedes is that the pricks are on the inside…

  928. …, and the owners were arrogant bas+ards
    Or, the difference between a porcupine and a Mercedes is that the pricks are on the inside…

  929. Pro Bono, I am curious if you can envision the Northwest European countries getting together with Southern Europe, Etc. And implementing a common health insurance plan covering all Europeans in the same way, equally sharing costs?
    Not so much a challenge as a thought that keeps coming to me as people continue to suggest the US treat 340M people, in economic and cultural circumstances as diverse as Europe, all the same.

  930. Pro Bono, I am curious if you can envision the Northwest European countries getting together with Southern Europe, Etc. And implementing a common health insurance plan covering all Europeans in the same way, equally sharing costs?
    Not so much a challenge as a thought that keeps coming to me as people continue to suggest the US treat 340M people, in economic and cultural circumstances as diverse as Europe, all the same.

  933. I am curious if you can envision the Northwest European countries getting together with Southern Europe, Etc. And implementing a common health insurance plan covering all Europeans in the same way, equally sharing costs?
    FWIW, “southern Europe” includes Spain and Italy, which have the 7th and 2nd best public health systems in the world. Just saying.
    As far as your basic point, my vote is to send it back to the states. Any place I care to live will have a good to very good system in place. Much of the rest of the country will have crap.
    Freedom-loving, small-government, liberty-producing crap. Their people will suffer.
    And when and if they get sick of suffering, they’ll do something about it. Or not. Not my problem, really.
    I am freaking sick and tired of arguing with people to try to persuade them that something like access to health care is something they should be interested in.
    Let the states do it, and let the outcome be on their heads. The whole debate has long since passed the “teaching a pig to sing” benchmark.
    Politicians and government officials might think twice about the wisdom of a war on citizens if, every time they stuck their head out, it got shot off.
    It’s hard for me to say exactly how pernicious, irresponsible, and plain old wooden-headed wrong this very common line of argument is.
    First, I think we all agree that the legitimacy of government rests on the consent of the governed. So, yes, at the limit, it is legitimate for people to resist a tyrannical state, even by force if that is what is required.
    By an enormous margin, the folks who usually spout off with this tripe are not suffering under a tyrannical regime. There are demographics within the US that could, IMO, make that claim. All of the assholes running around with a Gadsden flag on their bumper sticker are not those people.
    The context of the 2nd Amendment is near-universal citizen participation in a militia. Not a militia that they made up with a bunch of their buddies to go play army on the weekend, and not some nebulous bullshit Dick-law-era “unorganized militia”. A militia, under the direction of civil government, and subject to civil authority, made up of people who got their asses out of bed on a regular basis and trained.
    The 2nd A was passed because the states weren’t completely sure how this whole federal government thing was going to go, and they did not want the feds to have a monopoly on military force. They wanted to retain their own, state and municipal level militias.
    Thus, the 2nd A.
    The American attitude toward armed insurrection in the first generation of the nation can be demonstrated by the responses to the Whiskey and Shays rebellions. Both of which were expressions of quite legitimate grievance. Both were put down, firmly, by military force. In fact, by militias, under the direction of civil authority.
    The outlier regarding those rebellions was Jefferson. He thought they were freaking great. Shays prompted him to pen his famous “watering the tree of liberty” quote. He wrote that from France, where he was hanging around with actual tyrants, eating their food and having his slave taught how to prepare it so he could continue to enjoy a nice coq au vin when he returned to VA, drinking their wine of which he was quite fond, and having fun with the ladies when he wasn’t expanding his personal stock of slaves by screwing his teen-age slave mistress.
    Liberty!
    On this topic Jefferson can generally kiss my ass, as can all of the folks who like to trot out the famous quote and wave their guns around every time they don’t get their way.
    The underlying cause of the American revolution was that the folks living in North America were subject to the king – and were generally very happy to be so – but were also subject to laws passed by Parliament, at which they had no representation.
    If you have no representation in the federal government, you may be able to make a similar case. If you think you have no representation, send me your zip code and I will disabuse you of that notion by sending you the contact information for your House rep and Senators.
    In short, the whole “we’ll take up arms!” stuff is arrant bullshit, and irresponsible as well, because it only encourages unstable nutjobs to go off the reservation and kill people.
    Enough of that bullshit already, please.

  934. I am curious if you can envision the Northwest European countries getting together with Southern Europe, Etc. And implementing a common health insurance plan covering all Europeans in the same way, equally sharing costs?
    FWIW, “southern Europe” includes Spain and Italy, which have the 7th and 2nd best public health systems in the world. Just saying.
    As far as your basic point, my vote is to send it back to the states. Any place I care to live will have a good to very good system in place. Much of the rest of the country will have crap.
    Freedom-loving, small-government, liberty-producing crap. Their people will suffer.
    And when and if they get sick of suffering, they’ll do something about it. Or not. Not my problem, really.
    I am freaking sick and tired of arguing with people to try to persuade them that something like access to health care is something they should be interested in.
    Let the states do it, and let the outcome be on their heads. The whole debate has long since passed the “teaching a pig to sing” benchmark.
    Politicians and government officials might think twice about the wisdom of a war on citizens if, every time they stuck their head out, it got shot off.
    It’s hard for me to say exactly how pernicious, irresponsible, and plain old wooden-headed wrong this very common line of argument is.
    First, I think we all agree that the legitimacy of government rests on the consent of the governed. So, yes, at the limit, it is legitimate for people to resist a tyrannical state, even by force if that is what is required.
    By an enormous margin, the folks who usually spout off with this tripe are not suffering under a tyrannical regime. There are demographics within the US that could, IMO, make that claim. All of the assholes running around with a Gadsden flag on their bumper sticker are not those people.
    The context of the 2nd Amendment is near-universal citizen participation in a militia. Not a militia that they made up with a bunch of their buddies to go play army on the weekend, and not some nebulous bullshit Dick-law-era “unorganized militia”. A militia, under the direction of civil government, and subject to civil authority, made up of people who got their asses out of bed on a regular basis and trained.
    The 2nd A was passed because the states weren’t completely sure how this whole federal government thing was going to go, and they did not want the feds to have a monopoly on military force. They wanted to retain their own, state and municipal level militias.
    Thus, the 2nd A.
    The American attitude toward armed insurrection in the first generation of the nation can be demonstrated by the responses to the Whiskey and Shays rebellions. Both of which were expressions of quite legitimate grievance. Both were put down, firmly, by military force. In fact, by militias, under the direction of civil authority.
    The outlier regarding those rebellions was Jefferson. He thought they were freaking great. Shays prompted him to pen his famous “watering the tree of liberty” quote. He wrote that from France, where he was hanging around with actual tyrants, eating their food and having his slave taught how to prepare it so he could continue to enjoy a nice coq au vin when he returned to VA, drinking their wine of which he was quite fond, and having fun with the ladies when he wasn’t expanding his personal stock of slaves by screwing his teen-age slave mistress.
    Liberty!
    On this topic Jefferson can generally kiss my ass, as can all of the folks who like to trot out the famous quote and wave their guns around every time they don’t get their way.
    The underlying cause of the American revolution was that the folks living in North America were subject to the king – and were generally very happy to be so – but were also subject to laws passed by Parliament, at which they had no representation.
    If you have no representation in the federal government, you may be able to make a similar case. If you think you have no representation, send me your zip code and I will disabuse you of that notion by sending you the contact information for your House rep and Senators.
    In short, the whole “we’ll take up arms!” stuff is arrant bullshit, and irresponsible as well, because it only encourages unstable nutjobs to go off the reservation and kill people.
    Enough of that bullshit already, please.

  935. Also, if we want to “send health care back to the states”, as a citizen of MA I reserve the right to prevent folks in other states from trying to sell shitty, half-assed, catastrophes-only policies in my state.
    In for a penny, in for a pound. If the feds don’t get to tell you what to do, they don’t get to tell me what to do.
    Sell that trash in your own world if you like, keep it out of mine.

  936. Also, if we want to “send health care back to the states”, as a citizen of MA I reserve the right to prevent folks in other states from trying to sell shitty, half-assed, catastrophes-only policies in my state.
    In for a penny, in for a pound. If the feds don’t get to tell you what to do, they don’t get to tell me what to do.
    Sell that trash in your own world if you like, keep it out of mine.

  937. The 2nd A was passed because the states weren’t completely sure how this whole federal government thing was going to go, and they did not want the feds to have a monopoly on military force. They wanted to retain their own, state and municipal level militias.
    In short, the National Guard.

  938. The 2nd A was passed because the states weren’t completely sure how this whole federal government thing was going to go, and they did not want the feds to have a monopoly on military force. They wanted to retain their own, state and municipal level militias.
    In short, the National Guard.

  939. Me: Politicians and government officials might think twice about the wisdom of a war on citizens if, every time they stuck their head out, it got shot off.
    russell: It’s hard for me to say exactly how pernicious, irresponsible, and plain old wooden-headed wrong this very common line of argument is.
    I was responding to:
    wj: The fact that the US Army could smash any group which doesn’t have tanks and aircraft just doesn’t seem to penetrate.
    to indicate a possible response to the federal government making war on citizens. Of course, no arbitrary group is going to prevail against the government. But if the government tried to use force against a significant portion of the population, it could get very expensive for both sides.

  940. Me: Politicians and government officials might think twice about the wisdom of a war on citizens if, every time they stuck their head out, it got shot off.
    russell: It’s hard for me to say exactly how pernicious, irresponsible, and plain old wooden-headed wrong this very common line of argument is.
    I was responding to:
    wj: The fact that the US Army could smash any group which doesn’t have tanks and aircraft just doesn’t seem to penetrate.
    to indicate a possible response to the federal government making war on citizens. Of course, no arbitrary group is going to prevail against the government. But if the government tried to use force against a significant portion of the population, it could get very expensive for both sides.

  941. But if the government tried to use force against a significant portion of the population, it could get very expensive for both sides.
    Especially the losing side. See Syria.

  942. But if the government tried to use force against a significant portion of the population, it could get very expensive for both sides.
    Especially the losing side. See Syria.

  943. to indicate a possible response to the federal government making war on citizens.
    Fair enough.
    Frankly, if folks are really concerned about that, they might think about focusing on strengthening Posse Comitatus, rather than getting their Braveheart freak on.
    What I observe is that the most, and most positive, change in this country has been brought about by non-violent means.
    Not least because, to sapient’s point, it’s quite rare for violent insurrection to do much beyond make a mess.

  944. to indicate a possible response to the federal government making war on citizens.
    Fair enough.
    Frankly, if folks are really concerned about that, they might think about focusing on strengthening Posse Comitatus, rather than getting their Braveheart freak on.
    What I observe is that the most, and most positive, change in this country has been brought about by non-violent means.
    Not least because, to sapient’s point, it’s quite rare for violent insurrection to do much beyond make a mess.

  945. Marty, I don’t have an opinion on whether the USA should organize healthcare at state or federal level. But your comparison with Europe won’t wash. The USA is a fiscal union, with the effect that the range of per capita GDP is much narrower than in Europe. Because the wealthy, usually Democrat-voting states subsidise the poor, usually Republican-voting states.

  946. Marty, I don’t have an opinion on whether the USA should organize healthcare at state or federal level. But your comparison with Europe won’t wash. The USA is a fiscal union, with the effect that the range of per capita GDP is much narrower than in Europe. Because the wealthy, usually Democrat-voting states subsidise the poor, usually Republican-voting states.

  947. Unlike countries in places like the middle east, the ratio of young/old people is too low in western countries for violent insurrection or revolution.
    For years, the powers-that-be in Iran promoted an increased birthrate. Now they’re sitting on a very young population powder keg.

  948. Unlike countries in places like the middle east, the ratio of young/old people is too low in western countries for violent insurrection or revolution.
    For years, the powers-that-be in Iran promoted an increased birthrate. Now they’re sitting on a very young population powder keg.

  949. “The USA is a fiscal union, with the effect that the range of per capita GDP is much narrower than in Europe. ”
    I might be missing something here. Do you mean for example between California(58,619) and Alabama(37,261)? As compared to Greece(34,832) versus Germany(46,352)?
    I just want to understand that that is what you meant.

  950. “The USA is a fiscal union, with the effect that the range of per capita GDP is much narrower than in Europe. ”
    I might be missing something here. Do you mean for example between California(58,619) and Alabama(37,261)? As compared to Greece(34,832) versus Germany(46,352)?
    I just want to understand that that is what you meant.

  951. …, they might think about focusing on strengthening Posse Comitatus, …
    One might argue that an end run has been made on Posse Comitatus with all of the military equipment that’s been dumped on local law enforcement.

  952. …, they might think about focusing on strengthening Posse Comitatus, …
    One might argue that an end run has been made on Posse Comitatus with all of the military equipment that’s been dumped on local law enforcement.

  955. Marty, yes that’s what I mean, except that your numbers are fantastic. Greece is much poorer than that.

  956. Marty, yes that’s what I mean, except that your numbers are fantastic. Greece is much poorer than that.

  957. Yes wj, but really no one has ever told me we should adopt Bosnias health care system. In fact, what was stated was that we should look to Northwest Europe. The furthest North is Sweden which is about 10M people and probably not a good indication of what could be expected to be accomplished here.
    I picked Germany and Greece because they are bookends to a kind of fair comparison to the US by GDP and size.
    The question is if you took that band of countries and tried to normalize health care laws across them would it look much different than here.
    Even with the fundamental assumption that everyone gets covered every one of those countries ended up with a different mix of government controlled health care(private doctors, public doctors, government controlled hospitals, different ways to allocate finite resources, single or single third party payer, caps on charges, caps on doctors incomes, prescription drugs in some cases not even included.
    Yet, we struggle to address all of those things in a single way across states with equally diverse cultures and GDP’s so we look stupid? or whatever the word was.
    Even the 35M people in Canada set a minimum and left the rest to the provinces.

  958. Yes wj, but really no one has ever told me we should adopt Bosnias health care system. In fact, what was stated was that we should look to Northwest Europe. The furthest North is Sweden which is about 10M people and probably not a good indication of what could be expected to be accomplished here.
    I picked Germany and Greece because they are bookends to a kind of fair comparison to the US by GDP and size.
    The question is if you took that band of countries and tried to normalize health care laws across them would it look much different than here.
    Even with the fundamental assumption that everyone gets covered every one of those countries ended up with a different mix of government controlled health care(private doctors, public doctors, government controlled hospitals, different ways to allocate finite resources, single or single third party payer, caps on charges, caps on doctors incomes, prescription drugs in some cases not even included.
    Yet, we struggle to address all of those things in a single way across states with equally diverse cultures and GDP’s so we look stupid? or whatever the word was.
    Even the 35M people in Canada set a minimum and left the rest to the provinces.

  959. My numbers are from Wikipedia from 2015, whatever column I picked. One column had them at 17K I could find a US estimate that makes Mississippi pretty close to that. I don’t think Greeces 17 versus 25 for Mississippi changes my point a lot when Mass and NY are fighting it out at 75k

  960. My numbers are from Wikipedia from 2015, whatever column I picked. One column had them at 17K I could find a US estimate that makes Mississippi pretty close to that. I don’t think Greeces 17 versus 25 for Mississippi changes my point a lot when Mass and NY are fighting it out at 75k

  961. What is different about providing health insurance in MS as opposed to MA?
    Or FL as opposed to CA?
    Or anyplace in the US as opposed to any other place in the US?
    I understand differences in the specifics of the kinds of care needed, how to provide it most efficiently, etc. But nobody is proposing a universal program for providers.
    There’s a basket of coverage, and a requirement that insurance providers cover that stuff, and that pre-existing conditions not be the basis of exclusion.
    What’s different in one place or the other?

  962. What is different about providing health insurance in MS as opposed to MA?
    Or FL as opposed to CA?
    Or anyplace in the US as opposed to any other place in the US?
    I understand differences in the specifics of the kinds of care needed, how to provide it most efficiently, etc. But nobody is proposing a universal program for providers.
    There’s a basket of coverage, and a requirement that insurance providers cover that stuff, and that pre-existing conditions not be the basis of exclusion.
    What’s different in one place or the other?

  963. You picked the CIA 2010 column. They must have made that guesstimate just before the Greek economy went into freefall.
    Anyway, some sort of federal healthcare in Europe isn’t going to happen, because there’s no federal government.
    But, and this is the important point, every country in Europe not poorer than Mississippi has a universal healthcare system where what you pay is largely unrelated to your expected healthcare costs. That’s what you need in the USA, whether it’s organised at the state or federal level.

  964. You picked the CIA 2010 column. They must have made that guesstimate just before the Greek economy went into freefall.
    Anyway, some sort of federal healthcare in Europe isn’t going to happen, because there’s no federal government.
    But, and this is the important point, every country in Europe not poorer than Mississippi has a universal healthcare system where what you pay is largely unrelated to your expected healthcare costs. That’s what you need in the USA, whether it’s organised at the state or federal level.

  967. Insurance: Risk-transfer mechanism that ensures full or partial financial compensation for the loss or damage caused by the event(s) beyond the control of the insured party. Under an insurance contract, a party (the insurer) indemnifies the other party (the insured) against a specified amount of loss, occurring from specified eventualities within a specified period, provided a fee called premium is paid.
    Seems like the various approaches to paying for healthcare being bandied about in the US and in use in the US and some countries is labeled insurance because it’s familiar and convenient. Not that that is what it is.

  968. Insurance: Risk-transfer mechanism that ensures full or partial financial compensation for the loss or damage caused by the event(s) beyond the control of the insured party. Under an insurance contract, a party (the insurer) indemnifies the other party (the insured) against a specified amount of loss, occurring from specified eventualities within a specified period, provided a fee called premium is paid.
    Seems like the various approaches to paying for healthcare being bandied about in the US and in use in the US and some countries is labeled insurance because it’s familiar and convenient. Not that that is what it is.

  969. The USA is a fiscal union…
    I offer that this is the central point, not a comparison of GDP differentials as between states. The US has a unified central government fiscal system. The European Union does not. Thus you do not see poor states, hat in hand going broke and begging private banks for loans to “sustain their spending” a la Greece.
    In other words, the concept of say, Alabama, having more imports than exports is meaningless in the US context.
    Even the 35M people in Canada set a minimum and left the rest to the provinces.
    Yes. The federal government sets standards that the provinces must meet. They also have this thing called “price controls” (prescription drugs, for example) for some components.
    You can read all about it at the link.
    Block grants do an end run around this by essentially saying, “Here’s you money! It will shrink every year going forward! Do with it what you want! You’re on your own! Best of luck!”
    That is not a health care policy. That is a deliberate policy to shrink and eventually kill an effective public program.

  970. The USA is a fiscal union…
    I offer that this is the central point, not a comparison of GDP differentials as between states. The US has a unified central government fiscal system. The European Union does not. Thus you do not see poor states, hat in hand going broke and begging private banks for loans to “sustain their spending” a la Greece.
    In other words, the concept of say, Alabama, having more imports than exports is meaningless in the US context.
    Even the 35M people in Canada set a minimum and left the rest to the provinces.
    Yes. The federal government sets standards that the provinces must meet. They also have this thing called “price controls” (prescription drugs, for example) for some components.
    You can read all about it at the link.
    Block grants do an end run around this by essentially saying, “Here’s you money! It will shrink every year going forward! Do with it what you want! You’re on your own! Best of luck!”
    That is not a health care policy. That is a deliberate policy to shrink and eventually kill an effective public program.

  971. Scary facts about spending…
    Some folks insist that defense spending increase at 4% a year, in other words, grow faster than the economy. So if you do the math, eventually defense spending would encompass the whole economy.
    But these assholes never call that a “crisis”.
    Interesting, no?

  972. Scary facts about spending…
    Some folks insist that defense spending increase at 4% a year, in other words, grow faster than the economy. So if you do the math, eventually defense spending would encompass the whole economy.
    But these assholes never call that a “crisis”.
    Interesting, no?

  973. Republicans want to spend tax money on defense, but not social programs.
    Democrats want to spend tax money on social programs, but not defense.
    Jack Sprat could eat no fat
    His wife could eat no lean
    And so betwixt the two of them
    They licked the platter clean

  974. Republicans want to spend tax money on defense, but not social programs.
    Democrats want to spend tax money on social programs, but not defense.
    Jack Sprat could eat no fat
    His wife could eat no lean
    And so betwixt the two of them
    They licked the platter clean

  975. U.S. military expenditures are roughly the size of the next seven largest military budgets around the world, combined. Is that the result of Democrats not wanting to spend money on it?

  976. U.S. military expenditures are roughly the size of the next seven largest military budgets around the world, combined. Is that the result of Democrats not wanting to spend money on it?

  977. Democrats want to spend tax money on social programs, but not defense.
    The military budget increased in 2010 and 2011 — budgets enacted while the Democrats had a majority in Congress. It decreased every year since.
    Part of that was due to the draw-down of troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. But most was due to sequestration — that is, because the Republicans in Congress couldn’t get their act together to pass a budget.
    For those opposed to military spending, the Republican Party looks to be home; and the Democrats for those who want it increased. Not exactly what their reputations would suggest (as witness Charles comment gives them).

  978. Democrats want to spend tax money on social programs, but not defense.
    The military budget increased in 2010 and 2011 — budgets enacted while the Democrats had a majority in Congress. It decreased every year since.
    Part of that was due to the draw-down of troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. But most was due to sequestration — that is, because the Republicans in Congress couldn’t get their act together to pass a budget.
    For those opposed to military spending, the Republican Party looks to be home; and the Democrats for those who want it increased. Not exactly what their reputations would suggest (as witness Charles comment gives them).

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