Hacking Trump’s Brain

by

by Doctor Science

A few days ago media guru Dan Pfeiffer tweeted:

So-called President* Trump is also easily influenced (especially by the last person he spoke to), and is, of course, probably the most influential person in the world.

Everyone wants to hack Trump’s brain. Everyone always wants to influence influential public figures — let me tell you about Louis XIV! — but with Trump the process has gone to a much higher level than we’ve seen with any other public figure, maybe ever, for a couple of reasons.

First of all, since his Inauguration Trump has had a lonely yet public life. Neither his wife nor his children are living with him, and he seems to spend a lot of his time in the evenings and early mornings watching TV while phoning and/or tweeting.

Because he often tweets in response to what he sees on TV, we know what he watches. For instance, Pfeiffer’s tweet above was in response to this tweetfrom NBC News editor Brad Jaffy:

Since Trump tweets in response to things he sees on “Morning Joe, [t]he ad rates for “Morning Joe” have more than doubled post-election, according to one veteran media buyer,” Politico reported. “One prominent D.C. consultant said some of his clients, including a big bank and major pharmaceutical company, were negotiating this week to buy ads on “O’Reilly” and “Morning Joe” because they knew they had a good chance of reaching the president.”

We talk a lot about “this is not normal” these days, but this is beyond not-normal, we’re into the realm of the surreal.

Today the President of the United States isn’t just the Commander-in-Chief, he’s the Demographic-in-Chief, with people and firms competing for his attention by advertising on his favorite shows, hoping for mentions on his twitter.

That people will try to influence the President is perfectly natural and to be expected, but one of the functions of his staff (and family) is normally to be both buffer and filter: to screen out extraneous demands, but to let in worthwhile information and influences so the President can make good decisions.

Surrealist_landscape_by_1337samurai

“Surrealist Landscape” by 1337samurai on deviantart. Created in 2009, I think the elephant in the crown is a particularly prophetic touch.

By watching so much TV, Trump has essentially made FoxNews, MSNBC, and CNN part of his staff, letting them determine what gets through his filters. And not just their programming, their ads! — or at least, that’s what the people buying those ads think.

In a wacky, 2017 way, this *is* a more transparent approach to money in Washington. The public can see who buys time on “Morning Joe” or “The O’Reilly Show” and what they’re saying, and can thus see who’s trying to influence Trump in what direction. And in fact I think some media or communications student should start a spreadsheet right now, it might turn out to be really useful.

I can’t find it now, but I recall that during the transition I saw a story saying that Kellyanne Conway was on TV so much not just to promote Trump’s policys, but to influence them: that Trump, seeing her on TV, would be influenced by her views and presentation. That he would believe her and be swayed by her, because he saw her on TV. Even though he sent her there. At the time I thought it was kind of ridiculous, and even if true was sure to be an artifact of the transition, but now I see it as part of a pattern.

As I was finishing up the edits on this post, Alexandrea Erin alerted me to a Politico article saying the same thing:

Those of who are opposed to Trump are also trying to hack his brain, though mostly by different methods because we have different goals.

Nice, well-intentioned people have tried to persuade those of us in #TheResistance that all our protesting isn’t going to be effective the way we’re doing it. But one unspoken yet serious goal of the protests, especially the ones that follow Trump himself wherever he goes, is … well. To help Mike Pence.

I loathe Mike Pence, I think he’d be a terrible President. But he’d be a terrible President in a standard Republican mold, or a slightly exaggerated version thereof. I think of this as the “Marty metric”, after one of our resident conservative commenters who pointed it out as a way to decide what to freak out about in the opposite party. It’s very probable that tens of thousands of Americans would needlessly die on Pence’s watch, but that would be true of any Republican who succeeded in gutting the ACA or the Clean Air & Water Acts.

Trump is NOT a standard Republican. He has already done significant damage to the fabric of international relations, and the longer he’s around the more he threatens major peacekeeping institutions like NATO. I truly believe *millions* of lives are at risk, if Russia invades the Baltics or the Ukraine, or if Pakistan and India start lobbing nukes at each other (may heaven forfend!).

The decision to go for either impeachment or the 25th Amendment is essentially political, and must be made by Republicans. One of the reasons we protest Trump and mock him at every turn is to make him feel unhappy and stressed, so that he’s more likely to say or do something in public that Pence and his colleagues can use as ammunition.

Yeah, what I mean is pushing Trump to having a physical or mental breakdown.

“Propane Jane” is a psychiatrist in Texas. When she looks at Donald Trump,

I find myself confronted with public behavioral disturbances that more closely resemble the DSM than they do politics as usual. I’ve written extensively about the political aspects of Trump’s many disqualifying attributes, from his peddling in the privileged politics of personal insult, to his disingenuous minority outreach, and his exploitation of the poorly informed; but now it’s time that we discuss his mental health.

I’m not here to formally diagnose him from afar, but I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t beginning to feel somewhat derelict watching an emergency unfold without meaningful, life-saving intervention taking place. I make my living treating acute and sub-acute mental and behavioral health emergencies, which means people don’t end up on my radar unless they’ve comported themselves in ways that are generally determined to be unstable and unsafe. In some cases it’s florid psychosis, dementia, or mania, and in others it’s severe depression and suicidality, or unbridled poly substance abuse or personality disorder. No matter the etiology, my duty is to determine if the mental status changes in question represent a lack of stability and/or portend a heightened risk to individual or public safety.

When I hear and see Donald Trump, I hear and see an emergency.

In a later tweetstorm:

As a psychiatrist, my SPECIFIC concerns w/Trump are 1) clinically significant character pathology 2) readily apparent cognitive impairment.

His antisocial narcissism is a lost cause and should’ve disqualified him from jump but antisocial narcissists have the right to vote too.

Beyond that he won’t be the first antisocial narcissist to be POTUS. The kicker here is that he’s also elderly AND cognitively impaired.

I repeat, the overarching issue here is Trump is unmistakably disinhibited, incoherent, and erratic. No matter the etiology, he’s UNFIT.

Following Propane Jane (a must if you’re on Twitter, truthbombs dropped daily), I’ve seen many people point out similarities between Trump’s behavior and that of their relatives with Alzheimer’s. (Also ADD, which is pretty likely but not really a problem on the same level.)

As we can all tell by looking, “President of the United States” is an extremely stressful job that tends to age a person hard. The only President of my conscious lifetime who didn’t seem to be ground down by the Presidency was Ronald Reagan, and in retrospect I wonder if this was an early symptom of his Alzheimer’s.

Congressman and civil rights hero John Lewis boycotted Trump’s Inauguration, and then attended the Women’s March in Atlanta. The following Monday, reporter Devon Maloney tweeted:

CNN collected various videos.

I am certain that this is what Trump expected the Presidency to be like: “a rolling tidal wave of standing ovations”. Instead, as a recent Politico article reports: “his mood has careened between surprise and anger as he’s faced the predictable realities of governing”. And this is coming from his “allies”.

So, we’ve got an unprepared and mentally unstable person, doing one of the most significant and stressful jobs in the world. I think a *lot* of us are doing our best to subject Trump to psychological stress, not out of sadism or payback (or at least not only that). We want him to feel more stress so he’ll behave even more erratically, so his mental health will deteriorate faster and more publically, so Pence and Congress will make their move sooner.

I admit, it’s a horrible thing to want, especially when I think of it as someone who has long-standing mental illness. But nuclear war (or even conventional war!) is a much worse thing, and while Trump’s mental deterioration probably can’t be prevented–as Propane Jane says, he’s a man too hated to be helped–we have time to drag the world back from the nightmare brink. Millions of lives could be at stake.

LizaBrennerTheAutocratII

Autocrat II, by Liza Brenner.

* If he can call a judge who was unanimous approved by the US Senate “so-called”, I can sure call someone who got 3 million fewer popular votes a so-called president.

370 thoughts on “Hacking Trump’s Brain”

  1. I think a *lot* of us are doing our best to subject Trump to psychological stress, not out of sadism or payback (or at least not only that). We want him to feel more stress so he’ll behave even more erratically, so his mental health will deteriorate faster and more publically, so Pence and Congress will make their move sooner.
    I understand the inclination. I really do. But I think you all should be aware that this is a seriously high risk strategy.
    We’re talking about a man whose reaction to stress, especially to the stress of being opposed, is to lash out. Maybe, maybe, he keeps just lashing out verbally. But he’s in a position where he can lash out using the US military. Even (heaven, indeed, forfend!) with nukes.
    To some degree, you are hoping to thread the needle between him going visibly off the deep end and an intervention by the cabinet to short-stop disaster. That or someone in the military deciding that what he tells them to do constitutes an illegal order — also a narrow path to hope to walk.
    I admit I don’t have a safe solution. But I still worry.

  2. I think a *lot* of us are doing our best to subject Trump to psychological stress, not out of sadism or payback (or at least not only that). We want him to feel more stress so he’ll behave even more erratically, so his mental health will deteriorate faster and more publically, so Pence and Congress will make their move sooner.
    I understand the inclination. I really do. But I think you all should be aware that this is a seriously high risk strategy.
    We’re talking about a man whose reaction to stress, especially to the stress of being opposed, is to lash out. Maybe, maybe, he keeps just lashing out verbally. But he’s in a position where he can lash out using the US military. Even (heaven, indeed, forfend!) with nukes.
    To some degree, you are hoping to thread the needle between him going visibly off the deep end and an intervention by the cabinet to short-stop disaster. That or someone in the military deciding that what he tells them to do constitutes an illegal order — also a narrow path to hope to walk.
    I admit I don’t have a safe solution. But I still worry.

  5. Re: Kellyanne Conway going on TV to influence Trump – please recall that during the campaign, when she was his campaign manager, she was going on TV and saying things like, “If I could talk to Donald, I would say to him…”

  6. Re: Kellyanne Conway going on TV to influence Trump – please recall that during the campaign, when she was his campaign manager, she was going on TV and saying things like, “If I could talk to Donald, I would say to him…”

  9. I worked for years as a psychologist, so I am well schooled in psychological diagnosis. I can tell you that Trump is indeed a Narcissistic Personality Disorder as everyone says. However, he also meets the diagnosis for Borderline Personality Disorder and Paranoid Personality Disorder.
    Get a copy of the DSM and check it out for yourself. There really is no doubt that the man meets the criteria for all three diagnoses.

  10. I worked for years as a psychologist, so I am well schooled in psychological diagnosis. I can tell you that Trump is indeed a Narcissistic Personality Disorder as everyone says. However, he also meets the diagnosis for Borderline Personality Disorder and Paranoid Personality Disorder.
    Get a copy of the DSM and check it out for yourself. There really is no doubt that the man meets the criteria for all three diagnoses.

  11. The only President of my conscious lifetime who didn’t seem to be ground down by the Presidency was Ronald Reagan, and in retrospect I wonder if this was an early symptom of his Alzheimer’s.
    As I have mentioned at ObWi before, I was at a function in London towards the end of Reagan’s presidency where he addressed the gathering, and did not know what country he was in. “It’s so wonderful to be here in…….(long pause)..in..(long pause)……in…(long pause)…..this great nation”. As I remarked at the time, trying to be fair, a charitable interpretation would have been that he was confused between England, the UK, Great Britain etc, but the strong impression was otherwise.
    However, those were more innocent times; we worried about what he might do, but on the whole he was surrounded by competent people not actually intent on bringing down the whole system. So there was that difference.

  12. The only President of my conscious lifetime who didn’t seem to be ground down by the Presidency was Ronald Reagan, and in retrospect I wonder if this was an early symptom of his Alzheimer’s.
    As I have mentioned at ObWi before, I was at a function in London towards the end of Reagan’s presidency where he addressed the gathering, and did not know what country he was in. “It’s so wonderful to be here in…….(long pause)..in..(long pause)……in…(long pause)…..this great nation”. As I remarked at the time, trying to be fair, a charitable interpretation would have been that he was confused between England, the UK, Great Britain etc, but the strong impression was otherwise.
    However, those were more innocent times; we worried about what he might do, but on the whole he was surrounded by competent people not actually intent on bringing down the whole system. So there was that difference.

  13. I find myself confronted with public behavioral disturbances that more closely resemble the DSM than they do politics as usual.
    It may be worth noting that the psychiatrist who wrote the DSM has come out saying that this kind of diagnosis from afar is unethical “bullshit”.
    http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/2/10/14551890/trump-mental-health-narcissistic-personality
    But even assuming the diagnosis is right, I would second wj’s note of caution. It genuinely does seem that it’s possible to “get to” Trump by creating humiliating memes, but the consequences of doing so are highly unpredictable and could be very much unintended ones. I don’t think it’s at all clear that Trump in meltdown mode is safer for the world than Trump feeling happy and in control – much as many of us would enjoy seeing him suffer.

  14. I find myself confronted with public behavioral disturbances that more closely resemble the DSM than they do politics as usual.
    It may be worth noting that the psychiatrist who wrote the DSM has come out saying that this kind of diagnosis from afar is unethical “bullshit”.
    http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/2/10/14551890/trump-mental-health-narcissistic-personality
    But even assuming the diagnosis is right, I would second wj’s note of caution. It genuinely does seem that it’s possible to “get to” Trump by creating humiliating memes, but the consequences of doing so are highly unpredictable and could be very much unintended ones. I don’t think it’s at all clear that Trump in meltdown mode is safer for the world than Trump feeling happy and in control – much as many of us would enjoy seeing him suffer.

  15. “I don’t think it’s at all clear that Trump in meltdown mode is safer for the world than Trump feeling happy and in control”
    Sure, but to the extent that “meltdown” leads to “prompt removal”, then it may be the safer option.
    How long will it be before ISIS starts recruiting people who can do Vladimir Putin impersonations, for example? I’m pretty sure they already have people who can do international phone phreaking.

  16. “I don’t think it’s at all clear that Trump in meltdown mode is safer for the world than Trump feeling happy and in control”
    Sure, but to the extent that “meltdown” leads to “prompt removal”, then it may be the safer option.
    How long will it be before ISIS starts recruiting people who can do Vladimir Putin impersonations, for example? I’m pretty sure they already have people who can do international phone phreaking.

  17. Compounding the problem is the ghouls Trump has advising him, Bannon & Miller (and now Sessions). They’re like white nationalist Dick Cheneys.

  18. Compounding the problem is the ghouls Trump has advising him, Bannon & Miller (and now Sessions). They’re like white nationalist Dick Cheneys.

  21. but to the extent that “meltdown” leads to “prompt removal”, then it may be the safer option.
    the question being, how fast is “prompt” and how much damage gets done which it is elapsing? It may be the safer option, but that’s not to say it is safe. And it is at least possible that it isn’t even a safer option.

  22. but to the extent that “meltdown” leads to “prompt removal”, then it may be the safer option.
    the question being, how fast is “prompt” and how much damage gets done which it is elapsing? It may be the safer option, but that’s not to say it is safe. And it is at least possible that it isn’t even a safer option.

  23. Compounding the problem is the ghouls Trump has advising him, Bannon & Miller (and now Sessions). They’re like white nationalist Dick Cheneys.
    I don’t think we should ever leave Kellyanne Conway off the list of the snakes and ghouls surrounding his orangeness. I can’t remember a creepier public figure, although in fairness, I might find Bannon just as bad or worse if he was out in front of the public as much as Conway is.

  24. Compounding the problem is the ghouls Trump has advising him, Bannon & Miller (and now Sessions). They’re like white nationalist Dick Cheneys.
    I don’t think we should ever leave Kellyanne Conway off the list of the snakes and ghouls surrounding his orangeness. I can’t remember a creepier public figure, although in fairness, I might find Bannon just as bad or worse if he was out in front of the public as much as Conway is.

  25. “…but to the extent that “meltdown” leads to “prompt removal”, then it may be the safer option.”
    To the extent that Drumpf has surrounded himself with like minded lunatics, this is true. Will the GOP “take him out”? Unlikely. Politically, they would then own the disaster lock stock and barrel.
    It might be we get to the point of a totally disengaged president watching the polls and Mornin’ Joe, and the GOP regulars run the show in the background. Congress still has a lot of power, ya’ know.
    The wild card is the extent to which Drumpf will sign anything Ryan and McConnell put on his desk.
    That is the real long term danger. I fear many of my co-conspirators on The Left (McKinney emphasis) overlook where the real danger lies.

  26. “…but to the extent that “meltdown” leads to “prompt removal”, then it may be the safer option.”
    To the extent that Drumpf has surrounded himself with like minded lunatics, this is true. Will the GOP “take him out”? Unlikely. Politically, they would then own the disaster lock stock and barrel.
    It might be we get to the point of a totally disengaged president watching the polls and Mornin’ Joe, and the GOP regulars run the show in the background. Congress still has a lot of power, ya’ know.
    The wild card is the extent to which Drumpf will sign anything Ryan and McConnell put on his desk.
    That is the real long term danger. I fear many of my co-conspirators on The Left (McKinney emphasis) overlook where the real danger lies.

  27. Interesting Observer piece there, GFTNC. It’s hard to know what unprecedented thing(s) about this administration will eventually blow up.

  28. Interesting Observer piece there, GFTNC. It’s hard to know what unprecedented thing(s) about this administration will eventually blow up.

  29. Adam Rosenthal:
    Propane Jane is *not* talking about the narcissism, though. It’s Trump’s cognitive issues, the sort that are progressive, that worry her.
    No, it’s not “professional” to come out with a definitive diagnosis. But it certainly IS professional to say, this person needs a neuro/psychiatric evaluation.
    A *lot* of Propane Jane’s job involves situations where both patient and family are in denial about how bad things are, but at least they’re not immensely wealthy & powerful & surrounded by vampires. Trump’s behavior is going to have to get a LOT worse before he makes it to Walter Reed for a work-up — which may be enough to start the 25th Amendment ball rolling, depending on what they find.

  30. Adam Rosenthal:
    Propane Jane is *not* talking about the narcissism, though. It’s Trump’s cognitive issues, the sort that are progressive, that worry her.
    No, it’s not “professional” to come out with a definitive diagnosis. But it certainly IS professional to say, this person needs a neuro/psychiatric evaluation.
    A *lot* of Propane Jane’s job involves situations where both patient and family are in denial about how bad things are, but at least they’re not immensely wealthy & powerful & surrounded by vampires. Trump’s behavior is going to have to get a LOT worse before he makes it to Walter Reed for a work-up — which may be enough to start the 25th Amendment ball rolling, depending on what they find.

  33. the “Marty metric”
    Here’s another useful indicator:
    Jennifer Rubin says Trump is “incompetent”, and that his Cabinet choices are “ignoramuses”.
    Jennifer Rubin, professional right-winger columnist, is saying that about a Republican.
    After three weeks, here’s what I think I see:
    The Donald is functionally illiterate, unable to read even a newspaper article with comprehension. In addition to the psychological traits outlined by earlier commenters, he presents a galaxy of compensation coping strategies for his incapacity with words.
    Today we learn that, not content with having the Security Briefing papers cut to one page, he likes them to have charts and maps instead of words. One page. With pictures.

  34. the “Marty metric”
    Here’s another useful indicator:
    Jennifer Rubin says Trump is “incompetent”, and that his Cabinet choices are “ignoramuses”.
    Jennifer Rubin, professional right-winger columnist, is saying that about a Republican.
    After three weeks, here’s what I think I see:
    The Donald is functionally illiterate, unable to read even a newspaper article with comprehension. In addition to the psychological traits outlined by earlier commenters, he presents a galaxy of compensation coping strategies for his incapacity with words.
    Today we learn that, not content with having the Security Briefing papers cut to one page, he likes them to have charts and maps instead of words. One page. With pictures.

  35. Besides all this other stuff about his personality and abilities (or lack thereof), his knee-jerk reaction to so many things is just viciousness. This is only one of a number of such stories I’ve run across, or you could just list endless examples from the campaign.
    But even more mind-boggling in a weird way is that he’s so completely unsocialized that he apparently doesn’t even know you’re not supposed to say sh!t like that out loud. I mean, what does that say about his lack of acquaintance with consensus reality?
    Then again again, I like the suggestions from Bernice King quoted at Balloon Juice tonight. I’ve long since quit clicking on pictures of President Clickbait, and I’m going to try to take her other suggestions to heart too.

  36. Besides all this other stuff about his personality and abilities (or lack thereof), his knee-jerk reaction to so many things is just viciousness. This is only one of a number of such stories I’ve run across, or you could just list endless examples from the campaign.
    But even more mind-boggling in a weird way is that he’s so completely unsocialized that he apparently doesn’t even know you’re not supposed to say sh!t like that out loud. I mean, what does that say about his lack of acquaintance with consensus reality?
    Then again again, I like the suggestions from Bernice King quoted at Balloon Juice tonight. I’ve long since quit clicking on pictures of President Clickbait, and I’m going to try to take her other suggestions to heart too.

  39. OK, so this seems a very helpful summary of some of the grassroots activism groups out there, in addition to Indivisible which we already know about.
    https://www.thenation.com/article/your-guide-to-the-sprawling-new-anti-trump-resistance-movement/
    I’m particularly keen on the sound of #KNOCKEVERYDOOR:

     #KnockEveryDoor co-founder Zack Malitz says that “in the 2016 election, Democrats didn’t invest enough in going door to door and talking to voters. And where they did, they didn’t reach out to people who needed to be persuaded or who were perennially discouraged from voting.” So he and some other former Bernie Sanders campaign staffers and volunteers got together and decided to organize canvassers to…knock on every door in the country.
    “Talking to every voter requires a new approach to organizing,” says Malitz. “You’ll never be able to hire enough field organizers to support that kind of effort if you assume that a volunteer has to be directly in touch with a campaign staffer before they can get to work. So our approach is radical trust in volunteers—not just to knock on doors, but to organize their neighbors to knock on doors, to lead canvassing trainings, to barnstorm their communities, and even to run critical pieces of campaign infrastructure and technology. That’s the only way you can organize at a scale where it really is possible to knock on every door.”
    The group launched just two weeks ago, and 2,000 people have already signed up to participate. Last weekend, they held 17 canvassing events around the country. You can join the effort at the link above or chip in a few bucks to support this work here.

  40. OK, so this seems a very helpful summary of some of the grassroots activism groups out there, in addition to Indivisible which we already know about.
    https://www.thenation.com/article/your-guide-to-the-sprawling-new-anti-trump-resistance-movement/
    I’m particularly keen on the sound of #KNOCKEVERYDOOR:

     #KnockEveryDoor co-founder Zack Malitz says that “in the 2016 election, Democrats didn’t invest enough in going door to door and talking to voters. And where they did, they didn’t reach out to people who needed to be persuaded or who were perennially discouraged from voting.” So he and some other former Bernie Sanders campaign staffers and volunteers got together and decided to organize canvassers to…knock on every door in the country.
    “Talking to every voter requires a new approach to organizing,” says Malitz. “You’ll never be able to hire enough field organizers to support that kind of effort if you assume that a volunteer has to be directly in touch with a campaign staffer before they can get to work. So our approach is radical trust in volunteers—not just to knock on doors, but to organize their neighbors to knock on doors, to lead canvassing trainings, to barnstorm their communities, and even to run critical pieces of campaign infrastructure and technology. That’s the only way you can organize at a scale where it really is possible to knock on every door.”
    The group launched just two weeks ago, and 2,000 people have already signed up to participate. Last weekend, they held 17 canvassing events around the country. You can join the effort at the link above or chip in a few bucks to support this work here.

  41. Am I the only one who remembers that Ronald Reagan introduced the one-page memo to the White House more than 40 years ago?
    I yield to no one in my contempt for Trump, and I thought it was a dumb idea then, as now, but let’s not pretend it’s unprecedented.
    Or even unpresidented.

  42. Am I the only one who remembers that Ronald Reagan introduced the one-page memo to the White House more than 40 years ago?
    I yield to no one in my contempt for Trump, and I thought it was a dumb idea then, as now, but let’s not pretend it’s unprecedented.
    Or even unpresidented.

  43. I know a lot of folks love Reagan, but I’m not seeing him as the high bar for executive competence.
    I second wj’s reaction to this:
    I think a *lot* of us are doing our best to subject Trump to psychological stress…
    I’m fine with people pushing back as hard as they can on the policies that are coming out of this administration. That said, I’m not sure that gaming Trump’s psychological and mental health is a great idea.

  44. I know a lot of folks love Reagan, but I’m not seeing him as the high bar for executive competence.
    I second wj’s reaction to this:
    I think a *lot* of us are doing our best to subject Trump to psychological stress…
    I’m fine with people pushing back as hard as they can on the policies that are coming out of this administration. That said, I’m not sure that gaming Trump’s psychological and mental health is a great idea.

  47. Reagan
    Read and memorized scripts.
    Was a superb sportscaster in his youth, with an amazing ability to portray the game in words as if he were watching it live, just from reading a print description of the plays.
    Was a natural orator, such that first GE and then conservatives chose him as a spokesman
    (LP record decrying socialized medicine).
    Had a medium-sized vocabulary even in his dotage.

  48. Reagan
    Read and memorized scripts.
    Was a superb sportscaster in his youth, with an amazing ability to portray the game in words as if he were watching it live, just from reading a print description of the plays.
    Was a natural orator, such that first GE and then conservatives chose him as a spokesman
    (LP record decrying socialized medicine).
    Had a medium-sized vocabulary even in his dotage.

  51. The whole interaction between Trump and the intelligence community seems to be one of the unprecedented features of this administration.
    I saw something the other day that the guy Trump had named to be (#2, I think?) on the NSC had been refused(!) a security clearance. And another item that suggested that Flynn’s security clearance was coming under question. I can’t imagine that happening in any previous administration.
    On the other hand, since Trump appears basically uninterested in what the intelligence services have to tell him, I suppose it won’t have that much impact if his NSC folks aren’t hearing it….

  52. The whole interaction between Trump and the intelligence community seems to be one of the unprecedented features of this administration.
    I saw something the other day that the guy Trump had named to be (#2, I think?) on the NSC had been refused(!) a security clearance. And another item that suggested that Flynn’s security clearance was coming under question. I can’t imagine that happening in any previous administration.
    On the other hand, since Trump appears basically uninterested in what the intelligence services have to tell him, I suppose it won’t have that much impact if his NSC folks aren’t hearing it….

  53. NV, thanks for that link. I have no doubt that Russia and China have hacked Trump’s insecure phone. Their intelligence services would be remiss if they had not tried. And, apparently, utterly incompetent if they had not succeeded.
    Which leads me to wonder when someone domestically will not only hack it, but “leak” the results to the press.
    I suppose there might be some safety in the possibility that all those multiple hacks might start stepping on each other. But that’s a damn frail security reed.

  54. NV, thanks for that link. I have no doubt that Russia and China have hacked Trump’s insecure phone. Their intelligence services would be remiss if they had not tried. And, apparently, utterly incompetent if they had not succeeded.
    Which leads me to wonder when someone domestically will not only hack it, but “leak” the results to the press.
    I suppose there might be some safety in the possibility that all those multiple hacks might start stepping on each other. But that’s a damn frail security reed.

  57. …#2, I think?…
    Don’t know what the dotted-line reporting arrangements might be, but on paper Townley was at least a couple of levels below Flynn. The NSC staff has a bad case of title inflation: assistants to the President, then deputy assistants to the President, then special assistants to the President. Townley was a special assistant.
    Perhaps not as bad as some other cabinet organizations, where you see god-awful things like deputy assistant secretary or principal deputy under secretary.

  58. …#2, I think?…
    Don’t know what the dotted-line reporting arrangements might be, but on paper Townley was at least a couple of levels below Flynn. The NSC staff has a bad case of title inflation: assistants to the President, then deputy assistants to the President, then special assistants to the President. Townley was a special assistant.
    Perhaps not as bad as some other cabinet organizations, where you see god-awful things like deputy assistant secretary or principal deputy under secretary.

  59. might be a coping strategy to cover for early Alzheimer’s?
    I read the good Dr.’s comment the other way ’round, as saying that The Donald’s insistence on one-page briefing memos was not good evidence of illiteracy, and that my remote diagnosis is not to be taken very seriously
    And in response, I glossed Reagan’s lifelong (until Alzheimer’s) facility with written and spoken language.
    But yeah: I can’t claim to _know_ that The Donald is functionally illiterate. He just looks exactly like the functional illiterates I have known, except vastly richer and more self-centered.

  60. might be a coping strategy to cover for early Alzheimer’s?
    I read the good Dr.’s comment the other way ’round, as saying that The Donald’s insistence on one-page briefing memos was not good evidence of illiteracy, and that my remote diagnosis is not to be taken very seriously
    And in response, I glossed Reagan’s lifelong (until Alzheimer’s) facility with written and spoken language.
    But yeah: I can’t claim to _know_ that The Donald is functionally illiterate. He just looks exactly like the functional illiterates I have known, except vastly richer and more self-centered.

  61. Germany’s first post-war chancellor* was very old and had a very limited vocabulary but incompetent he was definitely not. He finally resigned when he found himself suffering from memory issues. Our second post-war president** probably had Alzheimer’s or something similar resulting in some famous ‘where am I’ incidents in his second term. But the German president has about as much power as Her British Majesty (he has a licence to talk unsupervised about policy in general though), so him being senile is at worst funny.
    *Adenauer
    **Lübke

  62. Germany’s first post-war chancellor* was very old and had a very limited vocabulary but incompetent he was definitely not. He finally resigned when he found himself suffering from memory issues. Our second post-war president** probably had Alzheimer’s or something similar resulting in some famous ‘where am I’ incidents in his second term. But the German president has about as much power as Her British Majesty (he has a licence to talk unsupervised about policy in general though), so him being senile is at worst funny.
    *Adenauer
    **Lübke

  63. …insistence on one-page briefing memos…
    It might just be what he’s used to. During the stretch of my career when I occasionally prepared something for the C-suite officers, it was a standing rule that it be one side of one piece of paper. If they decided that wasn’t enough, I would get a request for more information or a presentation from a non-officer who had been assigned. Decisions were made off-line by the smallest group necessary, which many times didn’t involve the CEO.
    I’ve been wondering if that’s the case with Bannon. The Donald tells him, “We need to deliver on the wall promise immediately. Prepare an EO for my signature.” As soon as Trump decides that he can’t trust Bannon to make the decisions on that sort of assignment, Bannon will be gone.
    I expect the wheels to fall off later this year when Trump discovers that he can’t trust Ryan/McConnell to make decisions and he can’t fire them. Probably not until fall, though.

  64. …insistence on one-page briefing memos…
    It might just be what he’s used to. During the stretch of my career when I occasionally prepared something for the C-suite officers, it was a standing rule that it be one side of one piece of paper. If they decided that wasn’t enough, I would get a request for more information or a presentation from a non-officer who had been assigned. Decisions were made off-line by the smallest group necessary, which many times didn’t involve the CEO.
    I’ve been wondering if that’s the case with Bannon. The Donald tells him, “We need to deliver on the wall promise immediately. Prepare an EO for my signature.” As soon as Trump decides that he can’t trust Bannon to make the decisions on that sort of assignment, Bannon will be gone.
    I expect the wheels to fall off later this year when Trump discovers that he can’t trust Ryan/McConnell to make decisions and he can’t fire them. Probably not until fall, though.

  69. If Regan had Alzheimer’s symptoms while still president, he lived a, perhaps record breaking, long time for someone with Alzheimer’s.

  70. If Regan had Alzheimer’s symptoms while still president, he lived a, perhaps record breaking, long time for someone with Alzheimer’s.

  71. Alito: “Now, what is a pollutant? A pollutant is a subject that is harmful to human beings or to animals or to plants. Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant. Carbon dioxide is not harmful to ordinary things, to human beings, or to animals, or to plants”
    Hiya Sammy. I guess you’ll be okay if we put you in a chamber with 90% carbon dioxide then? Just give a holler if it gets uncomfortable after an hour or two, m’kay?
    Alito is completely dishonest. He was an appellate judge in Philly, and when opining on a case about the constitutionality of “secret judicial proceedings”, claimed that the courtroom in Independence Hall had doors that could be closed to make parts of trials secret. If you’ve ever toured Independence Hall, the courtrooom has NO doors. It’s the legislative chamber that has doors.
    Dishonest conservative a-hole. But I repeat myself.

  72. Alito: “Now, what is a pollutant? A pollutant is a subject that is harmful to human beings or to animals or to plants. Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant. Carbon dioxide is not harmful to ordinary things, to human beings, or to animals, or to plants”
    Hiya Sammy. I guess you’ll be okay if we put you in a chamber with 90% carbon dioxide then? Just give a holler if it gets uncomfortable after an hour or two, m’kay?
    Alito is completely dishonest. He was an appellate judge in Philly, and when opining on a case about the constitutionality of “secret judicial proceedings”, claimed that the courtroom in Independence Hall had doors that could be closed to make parts of trials secret. If you’ve ever toured Independence Hall, the courtrooom has NO doors. It’s the legislative chamber that has doors.
    Dishonest conservative a-hole. But I repeat myself.

  73. If Regan had Alzheimer’s symptoms while still president, he lived a, perhaps record breaking, long time for someone with Alzheimer’s.
    Hmmm. Am I going to believe CharlesWT or the Mayo Clinic, which says this:

    The rate of progression for Alzheimer’s disease varies widely. On average, people with Alzheimer’s disease live eight to 10 years after diagnosis, but some survive 20 years or more.

  74. If Regan had Alzheimer’s symptoms while still president, he lived a, perhaps record breaking, long time for someone with Alzheimer’s.
    Hmmm. Am I going to believe CharlesWT or the Mayo Clinic, which says this:

    The rate of progression for Alzheimer’s disease varies widely. On average, people with Alzheimer’s disease live eight to 10 years after diagnosis, but some survive 20 years or more.

  75. I’m not all that excited about the intelligence community somehow “standing up” to Trump, depending on how they do it, I guess. Denying a security clearance, if warranted, is fine, but if not warranted, is not at all fine. But either way, if Trump were to say to them “he’s cleared” I think they need to clear him.
    Similarly, I have also read reports that they intelligence community has withheld intelligence from the WH. Uh, no. If you think the WH is compromised, make the case and present it to POTUS. If he’s unconvinced, sorry, you need to share.
    If they are unwilling to go along, they are allowed to resign loudly and proudly.

  76. I’m not all that excited about the intelligence community somehow “standing up” to Trump, depending on how they do it, I guess. Denying a security clearance, if warranted, is fine, but if not warranted, is not at all fine. But either way, if Trump were to say to them “he’s cleared” I think they need to clear him.
    Similarly, I have also read reports that they intelligence community has withheld intelligence from the WH. Uh, no. If you think the WH is compromised, make the case and present it to POTUS. If he’s unconvinced, sorry, you need to share.
    If they are unwilling to go along, they are allowed to resign loudly and proudly.

  77. Aye. Nodding and cheering at a bureaucracy that seeks to subvert elected leaders on day-to-day matters (rather than e.g. Constitutional crises) is not a good thing, unless you’re really not that into civilian rule.

  78. Aye. Nodding and cheering at a bureaucracy that seeks to subvert elected leaders on day-to-day matters (rather than e.g. Constitutional crises) is not a good thing, unless you’re really not that into civilian rule.

  81. If Regan had Alzheimer’s symptoms while still president, he lived a, perhaps record breaking, long time for someone with Alzheimer’s.
    senility is not the same as Alzheimer’s.
    But I am sure you are aware of this.
    To me, somebody who wants a single page memo on a complicated subject betrays either a very disappointing distaste for or fear of intellectual engagement, or is only seeking affirmation of a decision already reached.
    But them I read a lot of short posts on the internets. Guilty as charged, your honor.

  82. If Regan had Alzheimer’s symptoms while still president, he lived a, perhaps record breaking, long time for someone with Alzheimer’s.
    senility is not the same as Alzheimer’s.
    But I am sure you are aware of this.
    To me, somebody who wants a single page memo on a complicated subject betrays either a very disappointing distaste for or fear of intellectual engagement, or is only seeking affirmation of a decision already reached.
    But them I read a lot of short posts on the internets. Guilty as charged, your honor.

  83. “If Regan had Alzheimer’s symptoms while still president, he lived a, perhaps record breaking, long time for someone with Alzheimer’s.”
    Did Don Regan suffer from senile dementia as well?
    I had an aunt who died a year go at age 100 from Alzheimer’s. Call it senile dementia if you like, because having cared for my mother, who lived seven or eight years after the first symptoms became noticeable to her family, it matters little which it is because they fill their diapers equally. The last time I saw aunt was at my brother’s wedding in 1988 …. she was 72 …. and even then she was calling me by my Dad’s name, and HE had been dead for 20-plus years at the time.
    This is discounting the dirty martinis she drank at the time, but still, my uncle accompanied her around the room filling in the gaps for her.
    She entered a full nursing care facility in the late 1990s.
    I have other stories if that doesn’t convince.
    You’re a little off your game there, CharlesWT.
    Maybe have that looked into, ha ha.

  84. “If Regan had Alzheimer’s symptoms while still president, he lived a, perhaps record breaking, long time for someone with Alzheimer’s.”
    Did Don Regan suffer from senile dementia as well?
    I had an aunt who died a year go at age 100 from Alzheimer’s. Call it senile dementia if you like, because having cared for my mother, who lived seven or eight years after the first symptoms became noticeable to her family, it matters little which it is because they fill their diapers equally. The last time I saw aunt was at my brother’s wedding in 1988 …. she was 72 …. and even then she was calling me by my Dad’s name, and HE had been dead for 20-plus years at the time.
    This is discounting the dirty martinis she drank at the time, but still, my uncle accompanied her around the room filling in the gaps for her.
    She entered a full nursing care facility in the late 1990s.
    I have other stories if that doesn’t convince.
    You’re a little off your game there, CharlesWT.
    Maybe have that looked into, ha ha.

  87. Here I am, confused again.
    My instinct, too, is to be VERY negative about the idea of the intelligence community overruling the President about who gets security clearances, or intelligence briefings, or (worse yet) hiding things from him.
    But could it be that you guys haven’t heard about the Mar-a-Lago Situation Room situation? This is a complete fusion of kleptocracy and national INsecurity, where classified documents are examined in public by the light of waiters’ cell phones, and the whole scene goes straight to Instagram.
    And this is in addition to things like a “guest” (who pays $200K/year for the privilege of access to the POTUS) taking a photo of the guy carrying the nuclear football and posting it online. Or the fact that Trump is apparently still using his old Android, which is so insecure that if China, Russia, both Koreas, Japan, the UK, Estonia, and Chad aren’t using it as a listening device they should be ashamed of themselves.
    Or that the WH cybersecurity chief has supposedly been fired, except no-one else has been hired.
    So in fact yes, it is reasonable and probably necessary to assume that the White House has been compromised.
    This story has been covered by a wide variety of outlets, but *not* by Fox, WSJ, or NBC — which still pays Trump as a consultant (MSNBC has covered it).

  88. Here I am, confused again.
    My instinct, too, is to be VERY negative about the idea of the intelligence community overruling the President about who gets security clearances, or intelligence briefings, or (worse yet) hiding things from him.
    But could it be that you guys haven’t heard about the Mar-a-Lago Situation Room situation? This is a complete fusion of kleptocracy and national INsecurity, where classified documents are examined in public by the light of waiters’ cell phones, and the whole scene goes straight to Instagram.
    And this is in addition to things like a “guest” (who pays $200K/year for the privilege of access to the POTUS) taking a photo of the guy carrying the nuclear football and posting it online. Or the fact that Trump is apparently still using his old Android, which is so insecure that if China, Russia, both Koreas, Japan, the UK, Estonia, and Chad aren’t using it as a listening device they should be ashamed of themselves.
    Or that the WH cybersecurity chief has supposedly been fired, except no-one else has been hired.
    So in fact yes, it is reasonable and probably necessary to assume that the White House has been compromised.
    This story has been covered by a wide variety of outlets, but *not* by Fox, WSJ, or NBC — which still pays Trump as a consultant (MSNBC has covered it).

  91. DocSci – no doubt Trump & Crew are a walking sh1tshow threat to national security. But not sure what the intelligence community should do if the President wants to be briefed and make decisions at a dinner with an NFL team owner. Refuse, I suppose, and resign if he orders them to do otherwise.
    And it seems Trump is not beyond all reason, having accepted the denial of security clearance since (in part) the CIA head he had just appointed agreed it seems.
    Actively subverting him seems to me to be a very bright line that should not be crossed, and one the CIA has come close to crossing in the past (if not having gone over it – although I think this decades ago).
    If the CIA/intelligence committee thinks POTUS is an active threat to the national security of the United States, then they can go to Congress (but good luck with that) and/or the VP and Cabinet if POTUS refuses to listen, and ultimately the public I guess. But at some point they need to stand down or be fired/resign. At least when Trump fired Sally Yates it was public though. Who knows with CIA.

  92. DocSci – no doubt Trump & Crew are a walking sh1tshow threat to national security. But not sure what the intelligence community should do if the President wants to be briefed and make decisions at a dinner with an NFL team owner. Refuse, I suppose, and resign if he orders them to do otherwise.
    And it seems Trump is not beyond all reason, having accepted the denial of security clearance since (in part) the CIA head he had just appointed agreed it seems.
    Actively subverting him seems to me to be a very bright line that should not be crossed, and one the CIA has come close to crossing in the past (if not having gone over it – although I think this decades ago).
    If the CIA/intelligence committee thinks POTUS is an active threat to the national security of the United States, then they can go to Congress (but good luck with that) and/or the VP and Cabinet if POTUS refuses to listen, and ultimately the public I guess. But at some point they need to stand down or be fired/resign. At least when Trump fired Sally Yates it was public though. Who knows with CIA.

  93. So let’s see if Russia “retaliates” for the US sanctions now.
    Also, too, whither the Congressional GOP? Still investigating children’s shows?

  94. So let’s see if Russia “retaliates” for the US sanctions now.
    Also, too, whither the Congressional GOP? Still investigating children’s shows?

  95. I think the AI that runs the simulated universe we live in has decided to see just how far it can push things down the ridiculousity path before we figure it all out.

  96. I think the AI that runs the simulated universe we live in has decided to see just how far it can push things down the ridiculousity path before we figure it all out.

  99. I agree that the intelligence folks should not be refusing to give POTUS information. (Whether he is willing to listen is a different story.)
    But I don’t have a problem with them withholding information on how they got the information they are giving him. In the current situation, doing so could compromise not only the technical methods that we use but the lives of people that we have recruited as sources. I would be astounded if Trump gives a damn about those folks. But as a nation I think we have an obligation not to hang them out to dry.
    The way I see the latest disregard for security at Mar-a-Lago, it’s incumbent on anyone involved in national security to make judgement calls about what they tell POTUS and, more important, when. Just as the constant presence of ancient cell phones which can be hacked as listening devices means that even saying something to POTUS, outside a secured (as in with a built-in Faraday cage) room is probably malfeasance.
    Consider just this scenario. We get information on something happen in the world. The President discusses it in his totally insecure fashion, and then sends troops into harms way. Major harms way, because his indifference to security of communications means that they are walking into a trap. Is the answer to warn every military, intelligence, or other mission that they are likely going in with Zero surprise because their commander in chief has hung them out to dry. Or, perhaps more accurately, because he cares so little that he couldn’t be bothered not to.

  100. I agree that the intelligence folks should not be refusing to give POTUS information. (Whether he is willing to listen is a different story.)
    But I don’t have a problem with them withholding information on how they got the information they are giving him. In the current situation, doing so could compromise not only the technical methods that we use but the lives of people that we have recruited as sources. I would be astounded if Trump gives a damn about those folks. But as a nation I think we have an obligation not to hang them out to dry.
    The way I see the latest disregard for security at Mar-a-Lago, it’s incumbent on anyone involved in national security to make judgement calls about what they tell POTUS and, more important, when. Just as the constant presence of ancient cell phones which can be hacked as listening devices means that even saying something to POTUS, outside a secured (as in with a built-in Faraday cage) room is probably malfeasance.
    Consider just this scenario. We get information on something happen in the world. The President discusses it in his totally insecure fashion, and then sends troops into harms way. Major harms way, because his indifference to security of communications means that they are walking into a trap. Is the answer to warn every military, intelligence, or other mission that they are likely going in with Zero surprise because their commander in chief has hung them out to dry. Or, perhaps more accurately, because he cares so little that he couldn’t be bothered not to.

  101. I think the CIA should use all means at their disposal to persuade POTUS to take the necessary security precautions. But if it comes right down to it and POTUS says “tell me now over the rubber chicken and inappropriate cabernet” then they can resign (and then run to the press/congress) or tell him – and then the people/congress can decide whether they give a sh1t.
    And right now, when it comes to it, the real breakdown in our constitutional structure is the failure of congress the constitution and the prerogatives of its branch over partisanship – which has been a long time coming but is especially a problem with the GOP ISTM – the GOP wants their tax cuts, regulatory rollback, and ACA repeal, and they’re happy to sacrifice aspects of national security, decades long US foreign policy objectives, and the US standing in the world to get those things.
    As it is, imagine if Trump appoints Petraeus to the NSA position. Hoo boy.

  102. I think the CIA should use all means at their disposal to persuade POTUS to take the necessary security precautions. But if it comes right down to it and POTUS says “tell me now over the rubber chicken and inappropriate cabernet” then they can resign (and then run to the press/congress) or tell him – and then the people/congress can decide whether they give a sh1t.
    And right now, when it comes to it, the real breakdown in our constitutional structure is the failure of congress the constitution and the prerogatives of its branch over partisanship – which has been a long time coming but is especially a problem with the GOP ISTM – the GOP wants their tax cuts, regulatory rollback, and ACA repeal, and they’re happy to sacrifice aspects of national security, decades long US foreign policy objectives, and the US standing in the world to get those things.
    As it is, imagine if Trump appoints Petraeus to the NSA position. Hoo boy.

  103. Well, maybe the Congressional GOP will figure out that they can get all those things that they want from a President Pence. And without getting booted for re-election by association with a farce. If I were a dyed-in-the-wool true-believing rabid conservative, that’s sure the conclusion I would be drawing. My only question would be how fast I could persuade my fellow Republicans, so as to minimize the damage.

  104. Well, maybe the Congressional GOP will figure out that they can get all those things that they want from a President Pence. And without getting booted for re-election by association with a farce. If I were a dyed-in-the-wool true-believing rabid conservative, that’s sure the conclusion I would be drawing. My only question would be how fast I could persuade my fellow Republicans, so as to minimize the damage.

  105. I don’t think it’s reasonable to deny security access to those who are confirmed by the Senate are elected by the people, but anyone who is appointed by the president without those two things should have to meet the same standards as all other government employees. As I understand it, that is what happened here.

  106. I don’t think it’s reasonable to deny security access to those who are confirmed by the Senate are elected by the people, but anyone who is appointed by the president without those two things should have to meet the same standards as all other government employees. As I understand it, that is what happened here.

  107. Also, I think the president can declassify any information he wants, but until he does so any government employee must meet the security standards that is required before disclosure. So rubber chicken discussions should require affirmative POTUS action first.

  108. Also, I think the president can declassify any information he wants, but until he does so any government employee must meet the security standards that is required before disclosure. So rubber chicken discussions should require affirmative POTUS action first.

  111. Employees at the NSA and CIA and DOD swear an oath to defend the Constitution, not the President.
    If there is a conflict between the two, yes, they can resolve their own personal conflict by resigning. But they also have to decide if that is going to protect the Constitution from enemies foreign and DOMESTIC.

  112. Employees at the NSA and CIA and DOD swear an oath to defend the Constitution, not the President.
    If there is a conflict between the two, yes, they can resolve their own personal conflict by resigning. But they also have to decide if that is going to protect the Constitution from enemies foreign and DOMESTIC.

  113. “But they also have to decide if that is going to protect the Constitution from enemies foreign and DOMESTIC.”
    Yes, nothing like a quick coup to protect the Constitution. This logic could have been applied to every President in my lifetime by people of honest intent.

  114. “But they also have to decide if that is going to protect the Constitution from enemies foreign and DOMESTIC.”
    Yes, nothing like a quick coup to protect the Constitution. This logic could have been applied to every President in my lifetime by people of honest intent.

  115. Remember, “Mad Dog” is the sane one (everything is relative, I guess):
    Last week, Defense Secretary Jim Mattis was exploring whether the Navy could intercept and board an Iranian ship to look for contraband weapons possibly headed to Houthi fighters in Yemen.
    …
    But others doubt whether there was enough basis in international law, and wondered what would happen if, in the early days of an administration that has already seen one botched military action in Yemen, American forces were suddenly in a firefight with the Iranian Navy.
    Whee, as they say.

  116. Remember, “Mad Dog” is the sane one (everything is relative, I guess):
    Last week, Defense Secretary Jim Mattis was exploring whether the Navy could intercept and board an Iranian ship to look for contraband weapons possibly headed to Houthi fighters in Yemen.
    …
    But others doubt whether there was enough basis in international law, and wondered what would happen if, in the early days of an administration that has already seen one botched military action in Yemen, American forces were suddenly in a firefight with the Iranian Navy.
    Whee, as they say.

  121. But they also have to decide if that is going to protect the Constitution from enemies foreign and DOMESTIC.
    Yes, but I wouldn’t call the intelligence community actively undermining POTUS in secret with the intent of causing his downfall necessarily “protecting” the Constitution. No matter how bad POTUS is. Quite the opposite in fact.
    They need to go to Congress and/or the press to shine a light on all this. I don’t necessarily have any confidence that, say, substantial public proof Trump was actively coordinating with Russia during the presidential campaign to beat Hillary is going to cause the GOP controlled House to draw up articles of impeachment, but it could happen. Perhaps more importantly, “the people” would know and could make their own decisions.
    This is 90% of the problem with the intelligence community, the secrecy. I don’t want them, on their own and in secret, deciding what President is/is not a threat to the Constitution and then acting accordingly in secret.
    In contrast, look at Sally Yates at the DOJ – as far as she was concerned she was not going to defend the immigration EO in court, said so publicly, and then was fired. Bravo – and look what a sh1tshow the EO turned out to be for Trump.

  122. But they also have to decide if that is going to protect the Constitution from enemies foreign and DOMESTIC.
    Yes, but I wouldn’t call the intelligence community actively undermining POTUS in secret with the intent of causing his downfall necessarily “protecting” the Constitution. No matter how bad POTUS is. Quite the opposite in fact.
    They need to go to Congress and/or the press to shine a light on all this. I don’t necessarily have any confidence that, say, substantial public proof Trump was actively coordinating with Russia during the presidential campaign to beat Hillary is going to cause the GOP controlled House to draw up articles of impeachment, but it could happen. Perhaps more importantly, “the people” would know and could make their own decisions.
    This is 90% of the problem with the intelligence community, the secrecy. I don’t want them, on their own and in secret, deciding what President is/is not a threat to the Constitution and then acting accordingly in secret.
    In contrast, look at Sally Yates at the DOJ – as far as she was concerned she was not going to defend the immigration EO in court, said so publicly, and then was fired. Bravo – and look what a sh1tshow the EO turned out to be for Trump.

  123. I don’t necessarily have any confidence that, say, substantial public proof Trump was actively coordinating with Russia during the presidential campaign to beat Hillary is going to cause the GOP controlled House to draw up articles of impeachment
    if so, hard to know what it would take.

  124. I don’t necessarily have any confidence that, say, substantial public proof Trump was actively coordinating with Russia during the presidential campaign to beat Hillary is going to cause the GOP controlled House to draw up articles of impeachment
    if so, hard to know what it would take.

  125. Admittedly Yates doesn’t face the consequences of “going public” that someone in the intelligence community does – but that just highlights another problem with the excess secrecy.
    It also shows the need for robust whistle-blower channels and protection in the intelligence communities, both within the agencies themselves and especially to Congress.

  126. Admittedly Yates doesn’t face the consequences of “going public” that someone in the intelligence community does – but that just highlights another problem with the excess secrecy.
    It also shows the need for robust whistle-blower channels and protection in the intelligence communities, both within the agencies themselves and especially to Congress.

  127. From the link Posted by: bobbyp | February 14, 2017 at 08:21 AM:

    The average voter’s policy views, to the extent that these exist at all outside this context other than as artifacts of polling, are largely determined not by any particular factual information about the issues or ideological commitments concerning the role of government but by the policy positions of the major parties. If one of these parties embraces a particular position on any given issue, the 40% of American voters who consistently support that party will come to adopt that position wholesale, while most of the rest will come to believe (and be encouraged by the media’s carefully even-handed reporting to believe) that this position is at least reasonable and defensible if not correct. There are very few views so extreme and so indefensible that they can’t garner mass support if repeated frequently enough by a major US party—just think of “global warming is a hoax.”

  128. From the link Posted by: bobbyp | February 14, 2017 at 08:21 AM:

    The average voter’s policy views, to the extent that these exist at all outside this context other than as artifacts of polling, are largely determined not by any particular factual information about the issues or ideological commitments concerning the role of government but by the policy positions of the major parties. If one of these parties embraces a particular position on any given issue, the 40% of American voters who consistently support that party will come to adopt that position wholesale, while most of the rest will come to believe (and be encouraged by the media’s carefully even-handed reporting to believe) that this position is at least reasonable and defensible if not correct. There are very few views so extreme and so indefensible that they can’t garner mass support if repeated frequently enough by a major US party—just think of “global warming is a hoax.”

  129. if so, hard to know what it would take.
    I think Josh Marshall is pretty well convinced that, at a minimum, Trump knew about Flynn’s dealing with Russia during the campaign and likely approved of it. Whether that included coordination on hacking and release of the fruits thereof might be up in the air. Marshall’s timeline from Sunday.
    See also this (warning: tweetstorm):
    Why Did Michael Flynn Adopt Virtually the Opposite of His Own Advice on Russia?
    …
    12) A truly astonishing aspect of Flynn’s book: He labeled Russia an enemy & said that Russia was ALLIED w/ “Radical Islamists”
    …
    19) Another astonishing aspect of Flynn’s book – his policy to respond to terrorism: Ally WITH countries Trump has insulted & AGAINST Russia
    …
    26) Congress & media should probe this further: Why has Flynn been acting in dramatic contradiction to his own advice frm his Jul 2016 book?
    27) One of the possible explanations: Flynn flipped because he’s under orders from Trump
    Exciting times.

  130. if so, hard to know what it would take.
    I think Josh Marshall is pretty well convinced that, at a minimum, Trump knew about Flynn’s dealing with Russia during the campaign and likely approved of it. Whether that included coordination on hacking and release of the fruits thereof might be up in the air. Marshall’s timeline from Sunday.
    See also this (warning: tweetstorm):
    Why Did Michael Flynn Adopt Virtually the Opposite of His Own Advice on Russia?
    …
    12) A truly astonishing aspect of Flynn’s book: He labeled Russia an enemy & said that Russia was ALLIED w/ “Radical Islamists”
    …
    19) Another astonishing aspect of Flynn’s book – his policy to respond to terrorism: Ally WITH countries Trump has insulted & AGAINST Russia
    …
    26) Congress & media should probe this further: Why has Flynn been acting in dramatic contradiction to his own advice frm his Jul 2016 book?
    27) One of the possible explanations: Flynn flipped because he’s under orders from Trump
    Exciting times.

  131. are we sick of winning yet?
    Of course not!
    But we are getting a pretty good sense of what “Great Again” is supposed to look like: massively incompetent. Who knew…?

  132. are we sick of winning yet?
    Of course not!
    But we are getting a pretty good sense of what “Great Again” is supposed to look like: massively incompetent. Who knew…?

  133. Jesus people:
    The White House has posted inaccurate texts of President Trump’s own executive orders on the White House website, raising further questions about how thorough the Trump administration has been in drafting some of his most controversial actions.
    Imagine if these guys actually had their sh1t together.

  134. Jesus people:
    The White House has posted inaccurate texts of President Trump’s own executive orders on the White House website, raising further questions about how thorough the Trump administration has been in drafting some of his most controversial actions.
    Imagine if these guys actually had their sh1t together.

  135. [carefully places tongue part way into cheek…]
    Ugh, are you sure that isn’t deliberate (to sow confusion)? Think of the maps in Russia.

  136. [carefully places tongue part way into cheek…]
    Ugh, are you sure that isn’t deliberate (to sow confusion)? Think of the maps in Russia.

  137. ral,
    Consider the saying: “Never attribute to malice what is adequately explained by incompetence.” Definitely applies to the current administration — which has incompetence in job lots.

  138. ral,
    Consider the saying: “Never attribute to malice what is adequately explained by incompetence.” Definitely applies to the current administration — which has incompetence in job lots.

  141. Ugh, the answer to Josh Marshall of course is: or they simply told the truth. It wasn’t a high quality lie because they simply don’t lie, they, like every administration, would rather you not dwell on their mistake so they tell the best version of the truth possible.
    Im pretty pleased the President fired a person that everyone, including me, felt was one of his two worst picks in the first place, But no, let’s blow it up into some conspiracy for which Marshall offered nothing but his underlying assumption that something bigger must be wrong.

  142. Ugh, the answer to Josh Marshall of course is: or they simply told the truth. It wasn’t a high quality lie because they simply don’t lie, they, like every administration, would rather you not dwell on their mistake so they tell the best version of the truth possible.
    Im pretty pleased the President fired a person that everyone, including me, felt was one of his two worst picks in the first place, But no, let’s blow it up into some conspiracy for which Marshall offered nothing but his underlying assumption that something bigger must be wrong.

  143. shorter Marty ‘it’s not a crisis, it’s not a crisis, it’s not a crisis’
    Of course, NK having a missile test isn’t a crisis, it’s an opportunity to increase fees at Mar-a-Lago. Of course, Kim Jong-il is probably one of a small handful of leaders who not only understands Trump on a visceral level, he’s probably one of the few whose position is shakier than Trump’s.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-38974682
    http://38north.org/2017/02/mmadden021417/
    Hey, but BENGHAZI!!!!

  144. shorter Marty ‘it’s not a crisis, it’s not a crisis, it’s not a crisis’
    Of course, NK having a missile test isn’t a crisis, it’s an opportunity to increase fees at Mar-a-Lago. Of course, Kim Jong-il is probably one of a small handful of leaders who not only understands Trump on a visceral level, he’s probably one of the few whose position is shakier than Trump’s.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-38974682
    http://38north.org/2017/02/mmadden021417/
    Hey, but BENGHAZI!!!!

  145. Marty, how does this equate to them telling the truth:
    1. Spicer confirms Trump knew about Flynn’s deception from January 26th (Pence made his statement on January 15th).
    2. Kellyanne Conway confirms that the reason Flynn had to go yesterday is “a question of trust, because he lied to the Vice President”.
    How come Flynn had access til yesterday to “the full confidence of the President”? How come, after they knew that he had forfeited trust (1), it took them 18 days to decide he was untrustworthy (2)? Have I missed something? How is this not an obvious lie?

  146. Marty, how does this equate to them telling the truth:
    1. Spicer confirms Trump knew about Flynn’s deception from January 26th (Pence made his statement on January 15th).
    2. Kellyanne Conway confirms that the reason Flynn had to go yesterday is “a question of trust, because he lied to the Vice President”.
    How come Flynn had access til yesterday to “the full confidence of the President”? How come, after they knew that he had forfeited trust (1), it took them 18 days to decide he was untrustworthy (2)? Have I missed something? How is this not an obvious lie?

  147. “….the answer to Josh Marshall of course is: or they simply told the truth.”
    Well, except for the fact that they obviously did not.
    But then, it would appear this administration lies as a matter of course…even more than the evil Clintons!
    One could argue that this is not the end of the world (you did, and I agree); or that it’s good to see this asshole go (you did, and again I agree).
    But your preface to these assertions was, shall I say, weak.

  148. “….the answer to Josh Marshall of course is: or they simply told the truth.”
    Well, except for the fact that they obviously did not.
    But then, it would appear this administration lies as a matter of course…even more than the evil Clintons!
    One could argue that this is not the end of the world (you did, and I agree); or that it’s good to see this asshole go (you did, and again I agree).
    But your preface to these assertions was, shall I say, weak.

  149. I think the truth would be something along the lines of “we were happy to let Flynn serve as a potentially compromised national security adviser who lies to the VP until the press and the public found out about it”

  150. I think the truth would be something along the lines of “we were happy to let Flynn serve as a potentially compromised national security adviser who lies to the VP until the press and the public found out about it”

  155. I’m pretty sure that 18 days is a pretty short time in any historical perspective to be informed they suspect he lied, assess the legal ramifications, review what actually happened and make a decision to can a Cabinet member. Kelly Anne Conway was just the one being interviewed before the decision on timing was made.
    As far as compromised, he really wasn’t very much of a blackmail risk once Trump et al knew, huh? So 18 days really wasn’t risky.

  156. I’m pretty sure that 18 days is a pretty short time in any historical perspective to be informed they suspect he lied, assess the legal ramifications, review what actually happened and make a decision to can a Cabinet member. Kelly Anne Conway was just the one being interviewed before the decision on timing was made.
    As far as compromised, he really wasn’t very much of a blackmail risk once Trump et al knew, huh? So 18 days really wasn’t risky.

  157. Step one of any investigation involving someone with a security clearance is to suspend the security clearance. Then, 18 days would seem reasonable. Flynn was apparently getting high level briefings yesterday.

  158. Step one of any investigation involving someone with a security clearance is to suspend the security clearance. Then, 18 days would seem reasonable. Flynn was apparently getting high level briefings yesterday.

  159. Marty, I can only say that you are assuming they put a lot of thought into the decision.
    Given the past 3 weeks events I see no reason to assume that.

  160. Marty, I can only say that you are assuming they put a lot of thought into the decision.
    Given the past 3 weeks events I see no reason to assume that.

  163. Ridiculous. They didn’t suspect he lied, they knew it – there was a transcript of the calls. Conway was speaking today or yesterday, not before the decision on timing was made. Your last paragraph makes no sense either, he could have been blackmailed (for info, or otherwise) anytime up until Trump’s loss of confidence in.him became.public, when he still thought.he.had a.job and a.rep to.protect.

  164. Ridiculous. They didn’t suspect he lied, they knew it – there was a transcript of the calls. Conway was speaking today or yesterday, not before the decision on timing was made. Your last paragraph makes no sense either, he could have been blackmailed (for info, or otherwise) anytime up until Trump’s loss of confidence in.him became.public, when he still thought.he.had a.job and a.rep to.protect.

  165. And lying to the FBI is a felony, Gen. Flynn
    This may have something to do with the timing. At some point, the rest of the administration gets the following — not all confirmed publicly — set of stuff in a row: Flynn violated the Logan Act and said stuff to the Russian ambassador while he was still a private citizen that he should not have; the NSA recorded that; Flynn lied to Pence (not a crime); the FBI came in to ask questions and Flynn didn’t lie; stuff simmered; the Senate at least indicates behind the scenes that they’re not going to stand for this sh*t; Flynn either (a) bails or (b) falls on his sword to make any Senate probe a moot point, hence unlikely to proceed.
    At this point, it looks a lot like Trump expects a bunch of the senior people outside of Secretaries of this-and-that to be maneuvering and backstabbing. This afternoon there are rumors that Conway wants Priebus’s job, and assorted folk want Spicer’s job. I hate to say it, but so far Bannon looks like the most competent person in there.

  166. And lying to the FBI is a felony, Gen. Flynn
    This may have something to do with the timing. At some point, the rest of the administration gets the following — not all confirmed publicly — set of stuff in a row: Flynn violated the Logan Act and said stuff to the Russian ambassador while he was still a private citizen that he should not have; the NSA recorded that; Flynn lied to Pence (not a crime); the FBI came in to ask questions and Flynn didn’t lie; stuff simmered; the Senate at least indicates behind the scenes that they’re not going to stand for this sh*t; Flynn either (a) bails or (b) falls on his sword to make any Senate probe a moot point, hence unlikely to proceed.
    At this point, it looks a lot like Trump expects a bunch of the senior people outside of Secretaries of this-and-that to be maneuvering and backstabbing. This afternoon there are rumors that Conway wants Priebus’s job, and assorted folk want Spicer’s job. I hate to say it, but so far Bannon looks like the most competent person in there.

  167. And lying to the FBI is a felony, Gen. Flynn
    And being aware of a felony and concealing it is misprision of felony.

  168. And lying to the FBI is a felony, Gen. Flynn
    And being aware of a felony and concealing it is misprision of felony.

  169. I think I’ve come around to the position that Miller is a bigger threat than Bannon, the latter having some actual real life experience other than being a sociopathic political operator.

  170. I think I’ve come around to the position that Miller is a bigger threat than Bannon, the latter having some actual real life experience other than being a sociopathic political operator.

  171. This afternoon there are rumors that Conway wants Priebus’s job, and assorted folk want Spicer’s job.
    Takes all kinds. I can’t think of two worse gigs to have. I’d rather clean toilets.
    I have no idea what to make of any of this stuff. The possibilities range from a handful of people being really freaking stupidly and mendaciously incompetent, to straight up treason extending directly to, and including, the POTUS.
    Even in the best possible case, we have a bunch of baldly lying weirdos and a President who can’t resist turning a buck off of public property that he continues to operate in violation of his lease.
    Bannon seems pretty straight-up, but unfortunately he wants to go to war with the whole fucking world. Except Russia. For now.
    Good times.
    I apologize to the world for being such a liberal coastal elitist and bringing this mess down on all of our heads.

  172. This afternoon there are rumors that Conway wants Priebus’s job, and assorted folk want Spicer’s job.
    Takes all kinds. I can’t think of two worse gigs to have. I’d rather clean toilets.
    I have no idea what to make of any of this stuff. The possibilities range from a handful of people being really freaking stupidly and mendaciously incompetent, to straight up treason extending directly to, and including, the POTUS.
    Even in the best possible case, we have a bunch of baldly lying weirdos and a President who can’t resist turning a buck off of public property that he continues to operate in violation of his lease.
    Bannon seems pretty straight-up, but unfortunately he wants to go to war with the whole fucking world. Except Russia. For now.
    Good times.
    I apologize to the world for being such a liberal coastal elitist and bringing this mess down on all of our heads.

  173. Of course, FBI having tapes of Flynn’s phone calls confuses me. Private citizen, warrant? Investigation? I might have missed something.

  174. Of course, FBI having tapes of Flynn’s phone calls confuses me. Private citizen, warrant? Investigation? I might have missed something.

  175. To me the most puzzling thing is that Flynn had this conversation on an insecure call and presumably knew that the telephone traffic to the Russian embassy was monitored.

  176. To me the most puzzling thing is that Flynn had this conversation on an insecure call and presumably knew that the telephone traffic to the Russian embassy was monitored.

  179. FISA warrant. Remember those secret court nearly never turned down warrants? Lots of talk about it a decade ago.

  180. FISA warrant. Remember those secret court nearly never turned down warrants? Lots of talk about it a decade ago.

  181. Personal story: In 1993 I had occasion to make contact with software developers in Russia (for my employer). I received a visit from the FBI. The agent was very friendly and professional.

  182. Personal story: In 1993 I had occasion to make contact with software developers in Russia (for my employer). I received a visit from the FBI. The agent was very friendly and professional.

  183. Of course, FBI having tapes of Flynn’s phone calls confuses me
    Russian diplomat on the other end. I’m not sure a FISA warrant would even be needed.

  184. Of course, FBI having tapes of Flynn’s phone calls confuses me
    Russian diplomat on the other end. I’m not sure a FISA warrant would even be needed.

  185. The bigger question to me is when did the FBI begin it’s investigation of Flynn.
    We know they questioned him after the inauguration and it seems obvious the investigation predated it.
    When, and why did the investigation start in the first place? For the purpose of security clearance perhaps?

  186. The bigger question to me is when did the FBI begin it’s investigation of Flynn.
    We know they questioned him after the inauguration and it seems obvious the investigation predated it.
    When, and why did the investigation start in the first place? For the purpose of security clearance perhaps?

  187. I guess at this point I’m looking for a basic reality check. As I understand things, what seems to be pretty well established at this point is the following:

    • Russia gets confidential information on both (D)’s and (R)’s
    • They disclose bits of this that are harmful to the (D)’s but not the (R)’s
    • The motive here appears to be payback directed at Clinton, unclear if there was a specific desire to help Trump per se
    • Obama responds with sanctions
    • More or less the day the sanctions were imposed, Flynn, the nominee for NS advisor to the POTUS-elect, calls the Russian ambassador and says not to worry, when the new guy gets in we’ll fix things
    • Russia very visibly does not worry
    • DOJ and probably FBI brief “the White House” about Flynn’s chat
    • Flynn lies to at least Pence about the chat
    • Pence goes to bat for Flynn, ends up with egg on his face
    • Other principals at the White House “know nothing”
    • Flynn gets the axe

    There’s also some side action here involving Manafort, Page, and 19.5% of Rosneft, but it’s not completely clear if and how that is related to the above.
    Is that the story as of now?
    Week three.

  188. I guess at this point I’m looking for a basic reality check. As I understand things, what seems to be pretty well established at this point is the following:

    • Russia gets confidential information on both (D)’s and (R)’s
    • They disclose bits of this that are harmful to the (D)’s but not the (R)’s
    • The motive here appears to be payback directed at Clinton, unclear if there was a specific desire to help Trump per se
    • Obama responds with sanctions
    • More or less the day the sanctions were imposed, Flynn, the nominee for NS advisor to the POTUS-elect, calls the Russian ambassador and says not to worry, when the new guy gets in we’ll fix things
    • Russia very visibly does not worry
    • DOJ and probably FBI brief “the White House” about Flynn’s chat
    • Flynn lies to at least Pence about the chat
    • Pence goes to bat for Flynn, ends up with egg on his face
    • Other principals at the White House “know nothing”
    • Flynn gets the axe

    There’s also some side action here involving Manafort, Page, and 19.5% of Rosneft, but it’s not completely clear if and how that is related to the above.
    Is that the story as of now?
    Week three.

  189. Personal story: In 1993 I had occasion to make contact with software developers in Russia (for my employer).
    I held a Secret clearance for a few years as a condition of employment. Government contractor, everyone in the shop had to hold a Secret clearance.
    The DIS guys were very friendly and professional, and they jumped me through quite a few hoops. Not just me, also landlady, friends, etc. Friendly, and very very thorough.
    When people talk like it’s some big unreasonable thing to expect Trump to release his tax information, I just say WTF.

  190. Personal story: In 1993 I had occasion to make contact with software developers in Russia (for my employer).
    I held a Secret clearance for a few years as a condition of employment. Government contractor, everyone in the shop had to hold a Secret clearance.
    The DIS guys were very friendly and professional, and they jumped me through quite a few hoops. Not just me, also landlady, friends, etc. Friendly, and very very thorough.
    When people talk like it’s some big unreasonable thing to expect Trump to release his tax information, I just say WTF.

  191. “I might have missed something.”
    “Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy”. The Alec Guinness version.
    What are you doing, Marty? The Russian Congress seems much more concerned about Flynn’s removal than you do. How is that? Did they slip you a mickey?
    No, Bannon is much the worse and the canny, dangerous, deadly one. Miller can be dropped with one bullet as he gorges his throat on Trump’s Anthony Wiener.
    I just checked one of Bannon’s favorite “philosopher’s” books out of the library. Thought I’d get the reading done now while the going is good.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/10/world/europe/bannon-vatican-julius-evola-fascism.html?_r=0
    Fascists were too …. tame … for him. Too open to compromise. Hitler’s SS were more the ticket for effective governance.
    Thus Trump’s contempt for the methodical death-by-policy killers like Ryan and McConnell.
    Russell and bobbyp seem to be the only ones here who are fully aware that all of us are beggars now between the very, bad corrupt Republican cop and the killer Trump cop who can release the Gimp at any moment.
    And will.
    Both cops need to be taken out now by any and every means necessary if we are anything approaching serious Americans.
    Or hide somewhere safe soon.
    The 2016 Presidential was stolen via Russian espionage directed by and for the benefit of Donald Trump and the Republican Party, via rogue, traitorous elements in the FBI, and with the full knowledge of Pence and every so-called traditional republican now working for him, who saw it as the only way to implement their murderous agenda. Every downmarket race the republicans “won”, the stinking filth, followed directly from that massive traitorous corruption, the most monstrous in American history.
    I want all of it overturned and I want vengeance.
    I want the Secret Service to step up and kill Trump’s private security detail before the reverse happens.
    If it matters to anyone, I don’t give a f*ck any longer what happens to Hillary Clinton politically or what happens to the government.
    I prefer utter chaos for now, the better to do what needs to be done.
    Among more trivial matters, and I’d like to know if anyone else is experiencing this as well, I’ve been receiving a big increase in crank cell phone calls, several per day, since just before the Inauguration, featuring taped callers asking me “Can you hear me”, or taped female voices who pause and then say “Sorry, I was just getting off another call.” Don’t answer them; they are scams. But live callers too, misrepresenting themselves more than usual, to get me to listen to whatever scam all-American pitch they have to offer.
    My theory is that these types, the pure American free-market filth, know the government won’t be protecting us any longer from this sh*t, because subhuman republicans and trumps want an unregulated business environment giving free rein to unfettered lying, cheating, and stealing to get us back to making American full of sh*t again.
    In closing, I want the Statue of Liberty cut off it’s base, towed out to sea, and sunk to the bottom of the ocean.
    Anyone who wants to stop me from doing that, bring lots of guns. You’ll f*cking need them.

  192. “I might have missed something.”
    “Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy”. The Alec Guinness version.
    What are you doing, Marty? The Russian Congress seems much more concerned about Flynn’s removal than you do. How is that? Did they slip you a mickey?
    No, Bannon is much the worse and the canny, dangerous, deadly one. Miller can be dropped with one bullet as he gorges his throat on Trump’s Anthony Wiener.
    I just checked one of Bannon’s favorite “philosopher’s” books out of the library. Thought I’d get the reading done now while the going is good.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/10/world/europe/bannon-vatican-julius-evola-fascism.html?_r=0
    Fascists were too …. tame … for him. Too open to compromise. Hitler’s SS were more the ticket for effective governance.
    Thus Trump’s contempt for the methodical death-by-policy killers like Ryan and McConnell.
    Russell and bobbyp seem to be the only ones here who are fully aware that all of us are beggars now between the very, bad corrupt Republican cop and the killer Trump cop who can release the Gimp at any moment.
    And will.
    Both cops need to be taken out now by any and every means necessary if we are anything approaching serious Americans.
    Or hide somewhere safe soon.
    The 2016 Presidential was stolen via Russian espionage directed by and for the benefit of Donald Trump and the Republican Party, via rogue, traitorous elements in the FBI, and with the full knowledge of Pence and every so-called traditional republican now working for him, who saw it as the only way to implement their murderous agenda. Every downmarket race the republicans “won”, the stinking filth, followed directly from that massive traitorous corruption, the most monstrous in American history.
    I want all of it overturned and I want vengeance.
    I want the Secret Service to step up and kill Trump’s private security detail before the reverse happens.
    If it matters to anyone, I don’t give a f*ck any longer what happens to Hillary Clinton politically or what happens to the government.
    I prefer utter chaos for now, the better to do what needs to be done.
    Among more trivial matters, and I’d like to know if anyone else is experiencing this as well, I’ve been receiving a big increase in crank cell phone calls, several per day, since just before the Inauguration, featuring taped callers asking me “Can you hear me”, or taped female voices who pause and then say “Sorry, I was just getting off another call.” Don’t answer them; they are scams. But live callers too, misrepresenting themselves more than usual, to get me to listen to whatever scam all-American pitch they have to offer.
    My theory is that these types, the pure American free-market filth, know the government won’t be protecting us any longer from this sh*t, because subhuman republicans and trumps want an unregulated business environment giving free rein to unfettered lying, cheating, and stealing to get us back to making American full of sh*t again.
    In closing, I want the Statue of Liberty cut off it’s base, towed out to sea, and sunk to the bottom of the ocean.
    Anyone who wants to stop me from doing that, bring lots of guns. You’ll f*cking need them.

  193. Count, if you receive a phone call with a mix of recorded voices spelling out a message in the NATO phonetic alphabet, let us know.

  194. Count, if you receive a phone call with a mix of recorded voices spelling out a message in the NATO phonetic alphabet, let us know.

  195. My BIL held something above Secret for a few years while he did installation of software in the command-and-control bunkers in Europe. Had to check in at a US military base or consulate every 72 hours or it was revoked. He has a really funny story about the phone call he got from his brother in the small Nebraska town where he grew up, asking “What did you do? The FBI is here asking everyone in town about you!”

  196. My BIL held something above Secret for a few years while he did installation of software in the command-and-control bunkers in Europe. Had to check in at a US military base or consulate every 72 hours or it was revoked. He has a really funny story about the phone call he got from his brother in the small Nebraska town where he grew up, asking “What did you do? The FBI is here asking everyone in town about you!”

  199. in other news, it now appears that Trump was aware of Flynn’s convo, and apparently decided to just let Pence and the rest of his staff make asses of themselves.
    Nice guy, our POTUS. If he was on the Titanic, he’d be the guy throwing the women and kids overboard to make room for his valise.
    Allow me to note again that more or less on the day the duly elected POTUS was placing sanctions on Russia for fucking with our election, the president-elect’s nominee for *national security advisor* was on the horn with the Russian ambassador, telling him not to sweat it.
    Trump knew this, at the latest, at the end of January, and withheld that information from other members of his staff, including the VPOTUS. Who the POTUS allowed to make false statements, on matters of some consequence, in public, without so much as a heads up.
    It’s week three.
    In closing, I want the Statue of Liberty cut off it’s base, towed out to sea, and sunk to the bottom of the ocean.
    No worries, Canada will take it. They’ll know what to do with it.

  200. in other news, it now appears that Trump was aware of Flynn’s convo, and apparently decided to just let Pence and the rest of his staff make asses of themselves.
    Nice guy, our POTUS. If he was on the Titanic, he’d be the guy throwing the women and kids overboard to make room for his valise.
    Allow me to note again that more or less on the day the duly elected POTUS was placing sanctions on Russia for fucking with our election, the president-elect’s nominee for *national security advisor* was on the horn with the Russian ambassador, telling him not to sweat it.
    Trump knew this, at the latest, at the end of January, and withheld that information from other members of his staff, including the VPOTUS. Who the POTUS allowed to make false statements, on matters of some consequence, in public, without so much as a heads up.
    It’s week three.
    In closing, I want the Statue of Liberty cut off it’s base, towed out to sea, and sunk to the bottom of the ocean.
    No worries, Canada will take it. They’ll know what to do with it.

  203. The thing with Flynn, from what little I know, is that he was actually a freaking kick-ass hands-on intelligence officer. But utterly lacking in either temperament or personal skill set for an executive or administrative role.
    It is, IMO, in many ways a shame that he’s going to end his career this way.

  204. The thing with Flynn, from what little I know, is that he was actually a freaking kick-ass hands-on intelligence officer. But utterly lacking in either temperament or personal skill set for an executive or administrative role.
    It is, IMO, in many ways a shame that he’s going to end his career this way.

  205. … a freaking kick-ass hands-on intelligence officer …
    Way back in the last millennium, when Doonesbury was in its 1st or 2nd year, it had a story line in which B.D., the star quarterback, fired by patriotism over the Vietnam war, enlists in ROTC. In one particular strip, we are at the ROTC boot camp. The company commander is talking to his subordinate; in the background, the trainees are stabbing at hanging sandbags with their bayonets.
    PANEL 1: (background as above)
    The commander says “Sergeant, the new recruits are about what we expected. Uninspired, but willing to do as they’re told.”
    PANEL 2: (similar background)
    Commander and sargeant silent.
    PANEL 3: (similar background)
    Commander says, “But sergeant, this man worries me.”
    PANEL 4:
    B.D. is stomping on a fallen sandbag and plunging his bayonet into it, yelling “Aiee!! Kill! KILL!!”
    Maybe this snippet from my dusty attic of a memory has something to do with soldiers like Flynn, and maybe it doesn’t.
    –TP

  206. … a freaking kick-ass hands-on intelligence officer …
    Way back in the last millennium, when Doonesbury was in its 1st or 2nd year, it had a story line in which B.D., the star quarterback, fired by patriotism over the Vietnam war, enlists in ROTC. In one particular strip, we are at the ROTC boot camp. The company commander is talking to his subordinate; in the background, the trainees are stabbing at hanging sandbags with their bayonets.
    PANEL 1: (background as above)
    The commander says “Sergeant, the new recruits are about what we expected. Uninspired, but willing to do as they’re told.”
    PANEL 2: (similar background)
    Commander and sargeant silent.
    PANEL 3: (similar background)
    Commander says, “But sergeant, this man worries me.”
    PANEL 4:
    B.D. is stomping on a fallen sandbag and plunging his bayonet into it, yelling “Aiee!! Kill! KILL!!”
    Maybe this snippet from my dusty attic of a memory has something to do with soldiers like Flynn, and maybe it doesn’t.
    –TP

  207. NYTimes:
    Phone records and intercepted calls show that members of Donald J. Trump’s 2016 presidential campaign and other Trump associates had repeated contacts with senior Russian intelligence officials in the year before the election, according to four current and former American officials.

  208. NYTimes:
    Phone records and intercepted calls show that members of Donald J. Trump’s 2016 presidential campaign and other Trump associates had repeated contacts with senior Russian intelligence officials in the year before the election, according to four current and former American officials.

  209. GEN McAffrey was on my local radio talking about Flynn. McAffrey said Flynn was the best intel officer he ever knew, but his behavior since being fired was of someone looking for revenge. The ‘lock her up’ chants were unprecedented for a military officer.
    He also said that now Flynn is a private citizen with no executive privilege once again, and feeling slighted, he may talk. And his ‘scape goat’ comment might show he is ready to defend himself.

  210. GEN McAffrey was on my local radio talking about Flynn. McAffrey said Flynn was the best intel officer he ever knew, but his behavior since being fired was of someone looking for revenge. The ‘lock her up’ chants were unprecedented for a military officer.
    He also said that now Flynn is a private citizen with no executive privilege once again, and feeling slighted, he may talk. And his ‘scape goat’ comment might show he is ready to defend himself.

  219. “Paul said that Republicans will “never even get started” with major policy changes like repealing Obamacare if they are focused on investigating their colleagues.”
    No sh*t. I think most of us got there ahead of him.
    This answers McTX’s challenge a few days ago regarding whether republicans are just like trump.
    Yes, they are. At the very least symbiotic. Like two serial killers in one city who think it’s fun to copy cat, just for the fun of it.
    Sadists.
    Not that McTx is either trump or a republican.

  220. “Paul said that Republicans will “never even get started” with major policy changes like repealing Obamacare if they are focused on investigating their colleagues.”
    No sh*t. I think most of us got there ahead of him.
    This answers McTX’s challenge a few days ago regarding whether republicans are just like trump.
    Yes, they are. At the very least symbiotic. Like two serial killers in one city who think it’s fun to copy cat, just for the fun of it.
    Sadists.
    Not that McTx is either trump or a republican.

  225. Meanwhile, Russia has an intel ship trawling off the coast of DE, they’re deploying cruise missiles in violation of treaty obligations, American ships in the Bosphorus report unwelcome approaches from Russian aircraft, and Putin has responded to Trump’s call for the Crimea to be returned to the Ukraine with a yawn.
    I guess we showed them!
    A clue to world leaders, most notably our own: Putin doesn’t have friends. If you think you’re making a deal with him, but you can’t figure out who’s getting screwed, it’s you.
    It’s about time for a candid disclosure of Trump’s financial position. It’d be good for us to know who owns him, and how much. And yes, that word is “owns” not “owes”, it wasn’t a typo.
    This could actually be as bad as it smells. Which would be a truly and profoundly bad thing, for all of us.

  226. Meanwhile, Russia has an intel ship trawling off the coast of DE, they’re deploying cruise missiles in violation of treaty obligations, American ships in the Bosphorus report unwelcome approaches from Russian aircraft, and Putin has responded to Trump’s call for the Crimea to be returned to the Ukraine with a yawn.
    I guess we showed them!
    A clue to world leaders, most notably our own: Putin doesn’t have friends. If you think you’re making a deal with him, but you can’t figure out who’s getting screwed, it’s you.
    It’s about time for a candid disclosure of Trump’s financial position. It’d be good for us to know who owns him, and how much. And yes, that word is “owns” not “owes”, it wasn’t a typo.
    This could actually be as bad as it smells. Which would be a truly and profoundly bad thing, for all of us.

  229. russell, what did you intend your last link to be? It goes to Associated Press map of the US listing all regional papers in all states – am I missing something?

  230. russell, what did you intend your last link to be? It goes to Associated Press map of the US listing all regional papers in all states – am I missing something?

  231. Someone on my twitter feed asked whether it is possible to be both worried about Russia but also about a government (or at least the current new cycle and thus effectively the government) dominated by vague anonymous leaks?
    The GOP Congress, and Paul Ryan in particular, continues to diminish themselves. They need to go down with the ship.

  232. Someone on my twitter feed asked whether it is possible to be both worried about Russia but also about a government (or at least the current new cycle and thus effectively the government) dominated by vague anonymous leaks?
    The GOP Congress, and Paul Ryan in particular, continues to diminish themselves. They need to go down with the ship.

  233. I think I had a post, or at least a comment, back in the day about the corporate form, and the possibility of revoking corporate charters for company malfeasance.
    From the WaPo:
    A liberal advocacy group is urging New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman, already a foe of President Trump, to investigate and consider revoking Trump’s business charter in New York for business practices that it argues have run afoul of state law.
    In the immortal words of Michael Ray Richardson, “this ship be sinkin'”

  234. I think I had a post, or at least a comment, back in the day about the corporate form, and the possibility of revoking corporate charters for company malfeasance.
    From the WaPo:
    A liberal advocacy group is urging New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman, already a foe of President Trump, to investigate and consider revoking Trump’s business charter in New York for business practices that it argues have run afoul of state law.
    In the immortal words of Michael Ray Richardson, “this ship be sinkin'”

  239. “Meanwhile, Russia has an intel ship trawling off the coast of DE, they’re deploying cruise missiles in violation of treaty obligations, American ships in the Bosphorus report unwelcome approaches from Russian aircraft, and Putin has responded to Trump’s call for the Crimea to be returned to the Ukraine with a yawn”
    I take it those “unwelcome approaches” are only slightly akin to the variety trump doles out on a pass through a beauty pageant dressing room. Let Putin’s fingers do the walking for trump through a pussy riot.
    I said rightchere a few weeks ago that Putin would respond to every domestic resistance, push-back and endangerment of the regime he helped engineer/install in Washington DC via the corrupted apparatus of the republican party with threatening military moves around the globe.
    Our free press, the one not aligned with the Russian/Republican junta, and the checks and balances of our governmental institutions are messing with Putin’s bought and paid for assets in Washington.
    Putin sits at his desk and asks the air in front of him the same question we do: “We’re only 26 days in and already we’re being f*cked with?”
    Any attempt to impeach will be met with a mushroom-shaped, plutonium-scented Valentine’s Day card from “your friend Vlad”.
    Any further attempt to forestall deportations and border brutality will be met with a trump/bannon-FBI-designed terror attack on American soil, followed shortly thereafter by the trump/bannon/republican howling imposition of draconian martial measures accompanied by the swift moves to toss some chunks of red meat into the corner … eradicating Obamacare without replacement and halving taxes … to placate the few remaining republicans who aren’t just like trump but are ravenous nonetheless.
    What did we think that bacio della morte smooch trump gave comey the other week was exactly?
    John McCain, who just days ago was praising filth Flynn with the same voice he found to elevate Sarah Death Panel to head up the Insane Clown Posse he calls a political party a few years ago, had better be on the lookout for overcoated men on street corners bearing dipped umbrellas and the greeting “Skies are blue, but not for you, John.”
    Bannon holds that the Vietcong should have skipped the tiger cages and moved directly to real tigers for their prisoner of war playthings.
    I’ll be checking the board today to learn if the 10x discount accorded Countme’s ravings by certain parties has closed the gap between bid and ask a fair bit.
    The market becomes more liquid by the day.
    Marty, jump in your dinghy and row out to that Russian trawler erumpent with listening electronics and report back to us that there is nothing to see there, they are just following the cod catch, such at it is, a little farther south.
    Let me help. They were there in 2015 as well as a threat to the nigger in the White House. Except now the intelligence they glean is shared with trump to triangulate their mutual interests and domestic enemy movements.
    Putin’s back channel memo’s to trump about what’s cooking in the CIA deep state are limited to one page and in crayon for easy comprehension.
    Thanks Russell for correcting that link. Now we know what trump meant the other day when he told China that he looked forward to “constructive” engagement with them.
    Also, reflect on the revocation the other week (some wheat among the chaff) by trump of obama’s order forbidding corporate bribery and payoffs to governments.
    Chinese leadership found out trump’s and the republican party’s corrupt number and proceeeded directly to the betting window that is now America’s point-of-sale to the world.
    The republican Party owns all of this, like Davy Jones hugs his anchor.
    Swim with the fishes while you make America full of sh*t again.

  240. “Meanwhile, Russia has an intel ship trawling off the coast of DE, they’re deploying cruise missiles in violation of treaty obligations, American ships in the Bosphorus report unwelcome approaches from Russian aircraft, and Putin has responded to Trump’s call for the Crimea to be returned to the Ukraine with a yawn”
    I take it those “unwelcome approaches” are only slightly akin to the variety trump doles out on a pass through a beauty pageant dressing room. Let Putin’s fingers do the walking for trump through a pussy riot.
    I said rightchere a few weeks ago that Putin would respond to every domestic resistance, push-back and endangerment of the regime he helped engineer/install in Washington DC via the corrupted apparatus of the republican party with threatening military moves around the globe.
    Our free press, the one not aligned with the Russian/Republican junta, and the checks and balances of our governmental institutions are messing with Putin’s bought and paid for assets in Washington.
    Putin sits at his desk and asks the air in front of him the same question we do: “We’re only 26 days in and already we’re being f*cked with?”
    Any attempt to impeach will be met with a mushroom-shaped, plutonium-scented Valentine’s Day card from “your friend Vlad”.
    Any further attempt to forestall deportations and border brutality will be met with a trump/bannon-FBI-designed terror attack on American soil, followed shortly thereafter by the trump/bannon/republican howling imposition of draconian martial measures accompanied by the swift moves to toss some chunks of red meat into the corner … eradicating Obamacare without replacement and halving taxes … to placate the few remaining republicans who aren’t just like trump but are ravenous nonetheless.
    What did we think that bacio della morte smooch trump gave comey the other week was exactly?
    John McCain, who just days ago was praising filth Flynn with the same voice he found to elevate Sarah Death Panel to head up the Insane Clown Posse he calls a political party a few years ago, had better be on the lookout for overcoated men on street corners bearing dipped umbrellas and the greeting “Skies are blue, but not for you, John.”
    Bannon holds that the Vietcong should have skipped the tiger cages and moved directly to real tigers for their prisoner of war playthings.
    I’ll be checking the board today to learn if the 10x discount accorded Countme’s ravings by certain parties has closed the gap between bid and ask a fair bit.
    The market becomes more liquid by the day.
    Marty, jump in your dinghy and row out to that Russian trawler erumpent with listening electronics and report back to us that there is nothing to see there, they are just following the cod catch, such at it is, a little farther south.
    Let me help. They were there in 2015 as well as a threat to the nigger in the White House. Except now the intelligence they glean is shared with trump to triangulate their mutual interests and domestic enemy movements.
    Putin’s back channel memo’s to trump about what’s cooking in the CIA deep state are limited to one page and in crayon for easy comprehension.
    Thanks Russell for correcting that link. Now we know what trump meant the other day when he told China that he looked forward to “constructive” engagement with them.
    Also, reflect on the revocation the other week (some wheat among the chaff) by trump of obama’s order forbidding corporate bribery and payoffs to governments.
    Chinese leadership found out trump’s and the republican party’s corrupt number and proceeeded directly to the betting window that is now America’s point-of-sale to the world.
    The republican Party owns all of this, like Davy Jones hugs his anchor.
    Swim with the fishes while you make America full of sh*t again.

  241. I can only imagine what certain people (*clears throat*) would be saying if this kind of sh1t were happening under Obama.

  242. I can only imagine what certain people (*clears throat*) would be saying if this kind of sh1t were happening under Obama.

  243. What’s the frequency, Breitbart?
    http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/02/the-spigot-of-lies.html
    Here’s a little vision test for Rand Paul and company. Which one of these is worse news for his filthy ilk?
    This?
    http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/02/uninsured-population-holding-steady-about-10
    Or … this?
    http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/02/nyt-trump-team-had-repeated-contacts-russian-intelligence-during-presidential-cam
    Let’s try it again, like the lens vision test an optometrist might give his patient seeking a little more clarity:
    This?
    or … This?
    Would you prefer a blindfold?
    Ok, now .. This? Or …. This?

  244. What’s the frequency, Breitbart?
    http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/02/the-spigot-of-lies.html
    Here’s a little vision test for Rand Paul and company. Which one of these is worse news for his filthy ilk?
    This?
    http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/02/uninsured-population-holding-steady-about-10
    Or … this?
    http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/02/nyt-trump-team-had-repeated-contacts-russian-intelligence-during-presidential-cam
    Let’s try it again, like the lens vision test an optometrist might give his patient seeking a little more clarity:
    This?
    or … This?
    Would you prefer a blindfold?
    Ok, now .. This? Or …. This?

  245. Meanwhile, Assange activates his twitter account and tweets 2 hours ago:

    Amazing battle for dominance is playing out between the elected US govt & the IC who consider themselves to be the ‘permanent government’.

    Wikileaks yesterday:

    Trump’s National Security Advisor Michael Flynn resigns after destabilization campaign by US spies, Democrats, press

    followed 3 hours ago, presumably to cover their partiality, with this, from The Intercept:

    The Leakers Who Exposed Gen. Flynn Committed Serious — and Justified — Felonies

  246. Meanwhile, Assange activates his twitter account and tweets 2 hours ago:

    Amazing battle for dominance is playing out between the elected US govt & the IC who consider themselves to be the ‘permanent government’.

    Wikileaks yesterday:

    Trump’s National Security Advisor Michael Flynn resigns after destabilization campaign by US spies, Democrats, press

    followed 3 hours ago, presumably to cover their partiality, with this, from The Intercept:

    The Leakers Who Exposed Gen. Flynn Committed Serious — and Justified — Felonies

  251. I guess it’s about time Anthony Weiner’s dick is again dangled in front of the deplorable Republican base who are experiencing a little queasiness and might require some re-mesmerizing.
    When all else fails, Kelly Ann Conningtower’s husband can rifle through the alleged Democratic dic pics in his sock drawer and reinvigorate the hypnotized.

  252. I guess it’s about time Anthony Weiner’s dick is again dangled in front of the deplorable Republican base who are experiencing a little queasiness and might require some re-mesmerizing.
    When all else fails, Kelly Ann Conningtower’s husband can rifle through the alleged Democratic dic pics in his sock drawer and reinvigorate the hypnotized.

  253. they are just following the cod catch, such at it is, a little farther south.
    Cod fisheries, such as they are, are actually a little further north these days. Cod like cold water, that’s where the cold water is now.
    The general collapse of the Grand Banks cod fishery represents the loss of a commons that sustained livelihoods throughout New England and the maritimes for centuries. Now, of course, many if not most of those folks are looking for other work. Some adapt by going after other sea species, some by finding other lines of work altogether.
    Those changes are enforced by “the government”, in various forms and at various levels. It sucks, for sure, for the folks that have to deal with it. But, they deal with it. Not, as seems to be popular in other parts of the country, by threatening to kill the folks who are tasked with enforcing the management of a finite common resource, but by figuring it the hell out, one way or another.
    Note that the folks I’m talking about haven’t been pursuing their traditional livelihoods for 100 years, or three generations, but in some cases for three or four centuries.
    Adapt or die. We’re Yankees, we have ingenuity. We’re not going to die.
    Same story with our mill towns and manufacturing base. After all of that stuff left in favor of the cheap labor in The Heartland, we found other uses for the skill sets and infrastructure.
    Oh, your bosses figured out they could hire somebody cheaper somewhere else? Welcome to our world, circa 50 years ago.
    In any case, we figured it out. Took a while, but we got there.
    Adapt or die. No use crying about it. Even less use waving your gun around and trying to figure out who to shoot to make it stop.

  254. they are just following the cod catch, such at it is, a little farther south.
    Cod fisheries, such as they are, are actually a little further north these days. Cod like cold water, that’s where the cold water is now.
    The general collapse of the Grand Banks cod fishery represents the loss of a commons that sustained livelihoods throughout New England and the maritimes for centuries. Now, of course, many if not most of those folks are looking for other work. Some adapt by going after other sea species, some by finding other lines of work altogether.
    Those changes are enforced by “the government”, in various forms and at various levels. It sucks, for sure, for the folks that have to deal with it. But, they deal with it. Not, as seems to be popular in other parts of the country, by threatening to kill the folks who are tasked with enforcing the management of a finite common resource, but by figuring it the hell out, one way or another.
    Note that the folks I’m talking about haven’t been pursuing their traditional livelihoods for 100 years, or three generations, but in some cases for three or four centuries.
    Adapt or die. We’re Yankees, we have ingenuity. We’re not going to die.
    Same story with our mill towns and manufacturing base. After all of that stuff left in favor of the cheap labor in The Heartland, we found other uses for the skill sets and infrastructure.
    Oh, your bosses figured out they could hire somebody cheaper somewhere else? Welcome to our world, circa 50 years ago.
    In any case, we figured it out. Took a while, but we got there.
    Adapt or die. No use crying about it. Even less use waving your gun around and trying to figure out who to shoot to make it stop.

  263. From the Count’s link:
    several milk-based poems about white pride.
    I’m a 60 year old guy. I’m not in terrible shape, I’m not in great shape.
    I feel fairly comfortable saying that, if it comes down to it, even an army of old geezers like me have a pretty good shot against these guys.
    These are not the Nazis that killed my uncle in France. I don’t have a gun, but I have a slingshot. I think the odds are on my side.

  264. From the Count’s link:
    several milk-based poems about white pride.
    I’m a 60 year old guy. I’m not in terrible shape, I’m not in great shape.
    I feel fairly comfortable saying that, if it comes down to it, even an army of old geezers like me have a pretty good shot against these guys.
    These are not the Nazis that killed my uncle in France. I don’t have a gun, but I have a slingshot. I think the odds are on my side.

  267. Is the nationalist far right turning on the establishment for not being sufficiently loyal to the Golden Child, or is the internationalist alt-right ramping up their war against the establishment for this treacherous undermining of the interests of Christendom as articulated by the Defender of the Faith in Moscow? Deus Vult, y’all.

  268. Is the nationalist far right turning on the establishment for not being sufficiently loyal to the Golden Child, or is the internationalist alt-right ramping up their war against the establishment for this treacherous undermining of the interests of Christendom as articulated by the Defender of the Faith in Moscow? Deus Vult, y’all.

  269. From Ugh’s link about Pence and the Flynn mess:

    Asked how the vice president could be kept in the dark about the Flynn controversy for so long, two White House officials said it was a result of the muddled and uncertain way events unfolded rather than an intentional desire to keep him out of the loop.

    The thing is, it appears that the real problem, both for Pence and others, is that there is no loop to be in. Just a lot of semi-random flailing around going on.

  270. From Ugh’s link about Pence and the Flynn mess:

    Asked how the vice president could be kept in the dark about the Flynn controversy for so long, two White House officials said it was a result of the muddled and uncertain way events unfolded rather than an intentional desire to keep him out of the loop.

    The thing is, it appears that the real problem, both for Pence and others, is that there is no loop to be in. Just a lot of semi-random flailing around going on.

  271. “These are not the Nazis that killed my uncle in France.”
    True. These are playground Comanches in drag with a laugh track.
    That said, I’m baking rocks and metal shards into my cream pies and outfitting them with fuses just to be on the safe side.
    Remember, Cliven Bundy is now remaking public lands policy from his jail cell via his agents in Congress and the White House.
    Violence pays.

  272. “These are not the Nazis that killed my uncle in France.”
    True. These are playground Comanches in drag with a laugh track.
    That said, I’m baking rocks and metal shards into my cream pies and outfitting them with fuses just to be on the safe side.
    Remember, Cliven Bundy is now remaking public lands policy from his jail cell via his agents in Congress and the White House.
    Violence pays.

  287. http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/02/trump-israel-whatevs
    In one movie or another, or maybe all of them, Joe Pesci at some point asks someone “How the f*ck should I know? Get outta here! Get the f*ck away from me!”
    It reminds of this quote from George Carlin:
    “You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Two reasons: First of all, I think he’s a good actor, okay? To me, that counts. Second, he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn’t fuck around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that God was having trouble with.”

  288. http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/02/trump-israel-whatevs
    In one movie or another, or maybe all of them, Joe Pesci at some point asks someone “How the f*ck should I know? Get outta here! Get the f*ck away from me!”
    It reminds of this quote from George Carlin:
    “You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Two reasons: First of all, I think he’s a good actor, okay? To me, that counts. Second, he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn’t fuck around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that God was having trouble with.”

  293. I am happy to see Flynn go, but not because of the Russia thing, because I am suspicious of the mainstream hyperventilating about Russia, but because he was a freaking Islamophobe pushing for war with Iran.
    Whatever his own motives, I think Assange is right that there is a power struggle going on between the intelligence community ( the phrase makes me think of Barney Fife waterboarding someone while Andy and Aunt Bee sit on the porch drinking lemonade) and the Trump loonies and I want them to destroy each other. Won’t happen. Someone will win. Too bad.
    This post sums it up for me. I don’t always agree with the stuff at Consortiumnews, but I liked this piece.
    https://consortiumnews.com/2017/02/15/progressives-pile-on-flynns-ouster/

  294. I am happy to see Flynn go, but not because of the Russia thing, because I am suspicious of the mainstream hyperventilating about Russia, but because he was a freaking Islamophobe pushing for war with Iran.
    Whatever his own motives, I think Assange is right that there is a power struggle going on between the intelligence community ( the phrase makes me think of Barney Fife waterboarding someone while Andy and Aunt Bee sit on the porch drinking lemonade) and the Trump loonies and I want them to destroy each other. Won’t happen. Someone will win. Too bad.
    This post sums it up for me. I don’t always agree with the stuff at Consortiumnews, but I liked this piece.
    https://consortiumnews.com/2017/02/15/progressives-pile-on-flynns-ouster/

  295. As far as Assange and his motives go, I will point back to something Ugh said earlier: “Trump & Co. are giving CIA-bashing a bad name.” Assange has plenty of reasons (regardless of whether you think they’re justified) to hold a grudge against American intelligence w/o needing to be a Russian cat’s paw. He may be, he may not be – but not everything in the world is about us, and it’s incredibly myopic and self-absorbed to insist that actions affecting us – especially those carried out by foreign nationals – can only be motivated by supporting or opposing “our team”…

  296. As far as Assange and his motives go, I will point back to something Ugh said earlier: “Trump & Co. are giving CIA-bashing a bad name.” Assange has plenty of reasons (regardless of whether you think they’re justified) to hold a grudge against American intelligence w/o needing to be a Russian cat’s paw. He may be, he may not be – but not everything in the world is about us, and it’s incredibly myopic and self-absorbed to insist that actions affecting us – especially those carried out by foreign nationals – can only be motivated by supporting or opposing “our team”…

  297. So I was just giving a close re-read to the 25th Amendment, and would appreciate any information those of you with a law background could provide about the conflict resolution procedure in Section 4.
    The VP and cabinet notify Congress the President is unable to discharge duties; the President then notifies Congress there is no disability; the VP and cabinet reply within four days there is disability. Congress has 21 days to decide the issue, a 2/3 vote of each house means the VP continues as Acting President.
    What is not clear to me is “the VP continues as Acting President” for how long? The section does not specify for the remainder of the term, or that the President has been removed from office as in the case of impeachment. It also doesn’t specify any process after the Congressional vote for the President to regain/resume duties of office.
    I know it’s kind of absurd, but could the President then notify Congress of no disability, and restart this process ad infinitum? Presumably impeachment would follow as an expedient. Or in another scenario, a mid-term election is held after invocation of this provision; does the new Congress have the authority to revisit the issue? There is also no mechanism described for the VP/Acting President and cabinet to notify Congress that “(s)he’s all better” and everyone reverts to their elected office.
    Thanks in advance for any thoughts or clarifications.

  298. So I was just giving a close re-read to the 25th Amendment, and would appreciate any information those of you with a law background could provide about the conflict resolution procedure in Section 4.
    The VP and cabinet notify Congress the President is unable to discharge duties; the President then notifies Congress there is no disability; the VP and cabinet reply within four days there is disability. Congress has 21 days to decide the issue, a 2/3 vote of each house means the VP continues as Acting President.
    What is not clear to me is “the VP continues as Acting President” for how long? The section does not specify for the remainder of the term, or that the President has been removed from office as in the case of impeachment. It also doesn’t specify any process after the Congressional vote for the President to regain/resume duties of office.
    I know it’s kind of absurd, but could the President then notify Congress of no disability, and restart this process ad infinitum? Presumably impeachment would follow as an expedient. Or in another scenario, a mid-term election is held after invocation of this provision; does the new Congress have the authority to revisit the issue? There is also no mechanism described for the VP/Acting President and cabinet to notify Congress that “(s)he’s all better” and everyone reverts to their elected office.
    Thanks in advance for any thoughts or clarifications.

  299. This post sums it up for me
    I don’t know who’s supposed to be progressive and who’s not, nor do I know if I get to be in that club or not.
    I’m glad Flynn’s out for all of the reasons named in the piece. He’s an anti-Islamic obsessive, would probably be pushing to get us into war with Iran, is a conspiracy theory nut, isn’t a good administrator or executive, and talks to other countries that we are in the process of levying sanctions on to let them know they don’t have to take it seriously.
    All of the above.
    I’m also more than concerned about the apparent contacts between people in Trump’s circle and the Russians, throughout the entire campaign period. You don’t have to be a war-monger to recognize that Putin’s interests and ours do not align, that he is not our friend, and that any alliances or agreements we make with him should be handled as if we were dealing with a freaking scorpion.

  300. This post sums it up for me
    I don’t know who’s supposed to be progressive and who’s not, nor do I know if I get to be in that club or not.
    I’m glad Flynn’s out for all of the reasons named in the piece. He’s an anti-Islamic obsessive, would probably be pushing to get us into war with Iran, is a conspiracy theory nut, isn’t a good administrator or executive, and talks to other countries that we are in the process of levying sanctions on to let them know they don’t have to take it seriously.
    All of the above.
    I’m also more than concerned about the apparent contacts between people in Trump’s circle and the Russians, throughout the entire campaign period. You don’t have to be a war-monger to recognize that Putin’s interests and ours do not align, that he is not our friend, and that any alliances or agreements we make with him should be handled as if we were dealing with a freaking scorpion.

  301. You don’t have to be a war-monger to recognize that Putin’s interests and ours do not align
    It shouldn’t need saying, but probably does. It isn’t, in principle, just Putin. Any foreign country which attempts to interfere (especially covertly) in our elections is a serious problem.
    That isn’t to say that they cannot have opinions. And feel entirely free to tell us what their opinion is. It’s doing anything, beyond telling us what they think, that would be a problem.

  302. You don’t have to be a war-monger to recognize that Putin’s interests and ours do not align
    It shouldn’t need saying, but probably does. It isn’t, in principle, just Putin. Any foreign country which attempts to interfere (especially covertly) in our elections is a serious problem.
    That isn’t to say that they cannot have opinions. And feel entirely free to tell us what their opinion is. It’s doing anything, beyond telling us what they think, that would be a problem.

  303. I guess I don’t quite get the outrage over interference in our election and I am perfectly serious. They shouldn’t do it, but Americans complaining about it given what we do is just funny. It was on the cover of Time how we interfered in Russia’s elections twenty years ago. Clinton in a noneikileaks released tape with a local ny paper casually said we should have made sure Hamas lost in the elections there years ago. We also have Americans interfering in Israeli politics. That of course cuts both ways, as is befitting the 51st state.
    Interfering in elections. Overseas is an American pastime and it is the least of the things we do. We can try to stop interference in ours, but moral outrage is absurd.
    And anyway, why is Russian interference so bad given what the Saudis get us to do without daily headlines and constant liberal denunciations? Why focus on a hypothetical terrible future when a very real terrible present started two years ago and is likely to be made worse by Trump. If you are worried about what horrible things we might see because of some unholy alliance with a repressive regime, well…
    http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/trump-empowering-saudi-destruction-yemen-article-1.2971292

  304. I guess I don’t quite get the outrage over interference in our election and I am perfectly serious. They shouldn’t do it, but Americans complaining about it given what we do is just funny. It was on the cover of Time how we interfered in Russia’s elections twenty years ago. Clinton in a noneikileaks released tape with a local ny paper casually said we should have made sure Hamas lost in the elections there years ago. We also have Americans interfering in Israeli politics. That of course cuts both ways, as is befitting the 51st state.
    Interfering in elections. Overseas is an American pastime and it is the least of the things we do. We can try to stop interference in ours, but moral outrage is absurd.
    And anyway, why is Russian interference so bad given what the Saudis get us to do without daily headlines and constant liberal denunciations? Why focus on a hypothetical terrible future when a very real terrible present started two years ago and is likely to be made worse by Trump. If you are worried about what horrible things we might see because of some unholy alliance with a repressive regime, well…
    http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/trump-empowering-saudi-destruction-yemen-article-1.2971292

  307. I guess I don’t quite get the outrage over interference in our election and I am perfectly serious.
    I’m not particularly outraged that they did their best to mess with the election.
    I would like to know, and I believe we all deserve to know, what financial connections Trump has with Russia. Either via sovereign wealth, or via Putin personally, or via any of the kleptocrats in his circle.
    I would like to know, and I believe we all deserve to know, what contacts Trump or people in circle had with Putin or anyone within several arms’ reaches of Putin during the course of the campaign.
    And I generally don’t like Putin or Russia under Putin, and don’t think we should have anything to do with them above and beyond what is necessary for basic international stability.
    I’m sure other countries have tried to mess with our election, I’m sure some have had some success, and it’s not completely clear to me what the Russian responsibility for hacking was or how consequential it was for the election.
    I’d say Comey made a much bigger dent than revelations about the DNC and John Podesta’s pizza preferences.
    Putin is an anti-democratic authoritarian thug, and he is interested in expanding the sphere of his anti-democratic authoritarian thuggery.
    If Trump or any of his crew are caught up in that, we deserve to be aware of it, and frankly any and everyone involved should be shown the door.

  308. I guess I don’t quite get the outrage over interference in our election and I am perfectly serious.
    I’m not particularly outraged that they did their best to mess with the election.
    I would like to know, and I believe we all deserve to know, what financial connections Trump has with Russia. Either via sovereign wealth, or via Putin personally, or via any of the kleptocrats in his circle.
    I would like to know, and I believe we all deserve to know, what contacts Trump or people in circle had with Putin or anyone within several arms’ reaches of Putin during the course of the campaign.
    And I generally don’t like Putin or Russia under Putin, and don’t think we should have anything to do with them above and beyond what is necessary for basic international stability.
    I’m sure other countries have tried to mess with our election, I’m sure some have had some success, and it’s not completely clear to me what the Russian responsibility for hacking was or how consequential it was for the election.
    I’d say Comey made a much bigger dent than revelations about the DNC and John Podesta’s pizza preferences.
    Putin is an anti-democratic authoritarian thug, and he is interested in expanding the sphere of his anti-democratic authoritarian thuggery.
    If Trump or any of his crew are caught up in that, we deserve to be aware of it, and frankly any and everyone involved should be shown the door.

  309. Shorter me:
    It would neither surprise nor shock me to learn that Putin and the Russians sought to influence our election.
    I would find it beyond unacceptable to learn that folks involved in running for public office were willing participants in that effort.

  310. Shorter me:
    It would neither surprise nor shock me to learn that Putin and the Russians sought to influence our election.
    I would find it beyond unacceptable to learn that folks involved in running for public office were willing participants in that effort.

  311. I was just going to say something along the lines of Shorter russell, but he beat me to it, and said it better to boot.
    It’s probably not that useful to get outraged over Russians (or anyone) trying to interfere with the integrity of our elections.
    Actively pushing back against Americans who helped them, or who interfered all on their own, is far from useless. It’s hard to know in all this mess where one might get the most leverage for one’s daily energy and $ budget, but voter rights and fair elections seems like a top candidate to me.

  312. I was just going to say something along the lines of Shorter russell, but he beat me to it, and said it better to boot.
    It’s probably not that useful to get outraged over Russians (or anyone) trying to interfere with the integrity of our elections.
    Actively pushing back against Americans who helped them, or who interfered all on their own, is far from useless. It’s hard to know in all this mess where one might get the most leverage for one’s daily energy and $ budget, but voter rights and fair elections seems like a top candidate to me.

  313. I wouldn’t say I’m outraged so much as irritated by Russia’s (apparent) actions. I’ll save my outrage for any Americans (candidates or otherwise) who were willing participants in those efforts.
    I do wonder why you seem to think no American should be upset about what other countries try to do to us. It’s not like most of us had any part in whatever the American government has done to others. (Or are you holding yourself personally responsible for what our government has done in Yemen, just because you are a citizen? Didn’t think so.)

  314. I wouldn’t say I’m outraged so much as irritated by Russia’s (apparent) actions. I’ll save my outrage for any Americans (candidates or otherwise) who were willing participants in those efforts.
    I do wonder why you seem to think no American should be upset about what other countries try to do to us. It’s not like most of us had any part in whatever the American government has done to others. (Or are you holding yourself personally responsible for what our government has done in Yemen, just because you are a citizen? Didn’t think so.)

  315. “I’ll save my outrage for any Americans (candidates or otherwise) who were willing participants in those efforts.”
    I completely agree with wj on this.
    Other countries will do what they do. Candidates in the US that conspire with other countries to get elected, including felonious hacking of their opposition, is unacceptable in the extreme.
    Yes, someone please hack Trump’s brain. But (pro tip) make sure the ax is sharp.

  316. “I’ll save my outrage for any Americans (candidates or otherwise) who were willing participants in those efforts.”
    I completely agree with wj on this.
    Other countries will do what they do. Candidates in the US that conspire with other countries to get elected, including felonious hacking of their opposition, is unacceptable in the extreme.
    Yes, someone please hack Trump’s brain. But (pro tip) make sure the ax is sharp.

  319. If some Trump campaign person or Trump himself broke the law with respect to Russia or in any other way then we should know about it. We should know about it even if there wa some sort of legal contact, though at that point I also want to know all about all the interference from every country. I also want all the hyperventilating people who worry about the threat to our democracy if they feel our actions are a threat to other people in ways that go beyond stealing embarrassing material and leaking it. We seem awfully damn fragile if the wikileaks posts are a threat to our democracy.
    But why the outrage over Trump’s friendliness with Russia as opposed to any other regime with a bad human rights record, especially when people say they are concerned it will involve us in some sort of horrible behavior with our new best bud Putin? Quite possibly it will, as it has already happened with other countries. Right now it is the Saudis and Trump seems likely to make a horrible situation even worse. But that’s a hard case for Democrats to argue.
    The NYT editors got all sniffy because Trump defended Russia by saying we have killers too. I don’t for one second think Trump is a Chomskyite– he says random contradictory things in response to criticism and only God knows what any of it means. But the NYT response was funny in a bitter not at all funny sort of way. We only get into wars because of our love of freedom. Close your eyes and you might wonder who the rightwing fanatic was.

  320. If some Trump campaign person or Trump himself broke the law with respect to Russia or in any other way then we should know about it. We should know about it even if there wa some sort of legal contact, though at that point I also want to know all about all the interference from every country. I also want all the hyperventilating people who worry about the threat to our democracy if they feel our actions are a threat to other people in ways that go beyond stealing embarrassing material and leaking it. We seem awfully damn fragile if the wikileaks posts are a threat to our democracy.
    But why the outrage over Trump’s friendliness with Russia as opposed to any other regime with a bad human rights record, especially when people say they are concerned it will involve us in some sort of horrible behavior with our new best bud Putin? Quite possibly it will, as it has already happened with other countries. Right now it is the Saudis and Trump seems likely to make a horrible situation even worse. But that’s a hard case for Democrats to argue.
    The NYT editors got all sniffy because Trump defended Russia by saying we have killers too. I don’t for one second think Trump is a Chomskyite– he says random contradictory things in response to criticism and only God knows what any of it means. But the NYT response was funny in a bitter not at all funny sort of way. We only get into wars because of our love of freedom. Close your eyes and you might wonder who the rightwing fanatic was.

  321. But why the outrage over Trump’s friendliness with Russia as opposed to any other regime with a bad human rights record…?
    If you are asking for a reason why there should be a difference, the short answer is that there probably isn’t a good one.
    But if you are asking why there is a difference, the answer is pretty simple: history. We have a history of (not, thank God, shooting) conflict with Russia (and the USSR, which is the same for this purpose). We do not have a similar history of conflicts with the various other bad actors. History, and habits, matter in determining how people will react in the present.

  322. But why the outrage over Trump’s friendliness with Russia as opposed to any other regime with a bad human rights record…?
    If you are asking for a reason why there should be a difference, the short answer is that there probably isn’t a good one.
    But if you are asking why there is a difference, the answer is pretty simple: history. We have a history of (not, thank God, shooting) conflict with Russia (and the USSR, which is the same for this purpose). We do not have a similar history of conflicts with the various other bad actors. History, and habits, matter in determining how people will react in the present.

  325. We have a history of supporting bad actors and sometimes of being a bad actor. Trump was accidentally right about that.
    He is now bringing his uniquely clarifying gifts to the Israeli Palestinian conflict. The 2ss has been comatose for years and the peace process has been nothing more than a fig leaf so people could pretend we could support Israel and not be responsible for their human rights violations because our hearts were pure and we couldn’t make them accept a peace they didn’t want. All horse feces, particularly the part about our good intentions.
    The only good thing about having this narcisstic dimwit running the country is that some of the usual fecal matter people spout is irrelevant. Trump doesn’t realize you are supposed to talk about two states for two people’s and Jewish democracy and demographic threats to that ( though demographic threats to democracy does sound like a Trumpian concept). Trump has no idea how to bring about a mutually acceptable 1ss but Netanyahu thinks he is getting a free hand. Israel is exactly the sort of ally Trump America should have. They already have a big beautiful wall.

  326. We have a history of supporting bad actors and sometimes of being a bad actor. Trump was accidentally right about that.
    He is now bringing his uniquely clarifying gifts to the Israeli Palestinian conflict. The 2ss has been comatose for years and the peace process has been nothing more than a fig leaf so people could pretend we could support Israel and not be responsible for their human rights violations because our hearts were pure and we couldn’t make them accept a peace they didn’t want. All horse feces, particularly the part about our good intentions.
    The only good thing about having this narcisstic dimwit running the country is that some of the usual fecal matter people spout is irrelevant. Trump doesn’t realize you are supposed to talk about two states for two people’s and Jewish democracy and demographic threats to that ( though demographic threats to democracy does sound like a Trumpian concept). Trump has no idea how to bring about a mutually acceptable 1ss but Netanyahu thinks he is getting a free hand. Israel is exactly the sort of ally Trump America should have. They already have a big beautiful wall.

  327. But why the outrage over Trump’s friendliness with Russia as opposed to any other regime with a bad human rights record
    I set out to make a reply to this, and found myself almost immediately mired in a quagmire of western bias.
    Well played, you have given me something to ponder.

  328. But why the outrage over Trump’s friendliness with Russia as opposed to any other regime with a bad human rights record
    I set out to make a reply to this, and found myself almost immediately mired in a quagmire of western bias.
    Well played, you have given me something to ponder.

  331. Donald is correct: some things are true even if He, Trump says them.
    Since gorging itself on stolen Indian lands and stolen African lives, the US has grown fat and happy on a steady diet of meddling in foreign countries and allying itself with some very despicable governments. In pursuit of the material comfort (or at least the surly contentment) of its citizenry (or at least its electorate) the US government has allied itself with foreign suppliers of cheap bananas, petroleum, tube socks, and so forth, while turning a blind eye to their crimes and abuses. Presidents of both parties, in pursuit of election and re-election, have (selfishly, you might say) hewn to this general policy.
    He, Trump is outrageously different because of the well-founded (or at least not plausibly refuted) suspicion that his selfishness is of a completely different sort. Keeping Arab theocrats happy for the sake of keeping gas prices low for American drivers is the bog-standard form of (political) selfishness. Making a Russian autocrat happy for the sake of keeping your personal business enterprises solvent is emphatically not.
    –TP

  332. Donald is correct: some things are true even if He, Trump says them.
    Since gorging itself on stolen Indian lands and stolen African lives, the US has grown fat and happy on a steady diet of meddling in foreign countries and allying itself with some very despicable governments. In pursuit of the material comfort (or at least the surly contentment) of its citizenry (or at least its electorate) the US government has allied itself with foreign suppliers of cheap bananas, petroleum, tube socks, and so forth, while turning a blind eye to their crimes and abuses. Presidents of both parties, in pursuit of election and re-election, have (selfishly, you might say) hewn to this general policy.
    He, Trump is outrageously different because of the well-founded (or at least not plausibly refuted) suspicion that his selfishness is of a completely different sort. Keeping Arab theocrats happy for the sake of keeping gas prices low for American drivers is the bog-standard form of (political) selfishness. Making a Russian autocrat happy for the sake of keeping your personal business enterprises solvent is emphatically not.
    –TP

  333. But why the outrage over Trump’s friendliness with Russia as opposed to any other regime with a bad human rights record…
    Well from a selfishly European perspective, a real concern about getting bits of Europe salami sliced away by the nationalist kleptocrat in charge there.

  334. But why the outrage over Trump’s friendliness with Russia as opposed to any other regime with a bad human rights record…
    Well from a selfishly European perspective, a real concern about getting bits of Europe salami sliced away by the nationalist kleptocrat in charge there.

  337. But why the outrage over Trump’s friendliness with Russia as opposed to any other regime with a bad human rights record…
    Perhaps because there seems to be more than a bit of racism built into it, suggesting that in his heart of hearts, Trump shares the intellectual heritage of David Duke and the KKK.
    I should note that I’m just guessing, Trump’s friendliness with Russia is not in my top 5.

  338. But why the outrage over Trump’s friendliness with Russia as opposed to any other regime with a bad human rights record…
    Perhaps because there seems to be more than a bit of racism built into it, suggesting that in his heart of hearts, Trump shares the intellectual heritage of David Duke and the KKK.
    I should note that I’m just guessing, Trump’s friendliness with Russia is not in my top 5.

  339. But why the outrage over Trump’s friendliness with Russia as opposed to any other regime with a bad human rights record…
    I will chime in, although this is only a sort of gut feeling.
    The shorter me says that “a bad human rights record” isn’t the only parameter people might care about, it’s a complicated world. The longer me says…
    I think the Russia thing is extra upsetting for a lot of people because Russia is (and has been for most of the lives of older people) arguably a true rival of the US, and that adds a whole other layer of issues to the notion that they are infiltrating the highest reaches of the government. Countries like Saudi Arabia are not potential/true global rivals in that way.
    I was born in 1950 and one of my earliest reading memories is of a Civil Defense pamphlet that was lying around the house. It described what would happen if an “atom bomb” hit…peeling skin, burns, mass destruction and death, on and on. I was terrified — for years — and “Russia” was at the center of that terror.
    I’m not saying it’s laudable to feel this way (safer because my country is the bully at the top of the heap), I’m just saying that it’s much, much more complicated than just a hypocrisy about race or human rights.

  340. But why the outrage over Trump’s friendliness with Russia as opposed to any other regime with a bad human rights record…
    I will chime in, although this is only a sort of gut feeling.
    The shorter me says that “a bad human rights record” isn’t the only parameter people might care about, it’s a complicated world. The longer me says…
    I think the Russia thing is extra upsetting for a lot of people because Russia is (and has been for most of the lives of older people) arguably a true rival of the US, and that adds a whole other layer of issues to the notion that they are infiltrating the highest reaches of the government. Countries like Saudi Arabia are not potential/true global rivals in that way.
    I was born in 1950 and one of my earliest reading memories is of a Civil Defense pamphlet that was lying around the house. It described what would happen if an “atom bomb” hit…peeling skin, burns, mass destruction and death, on and on. I was terrified — for years — and “Russia” was at the center of that terror.
    I’m not saying it’s laudable to feel this way (safer because my country is the bully at the top of the heap), I’m just saying that it’s much, much more complicated than just a hypocrisy about race or human rights.

  341. The short version – Because it’s fncking RUSSIA!!! (Duh…)
    I’m being sort of cute with that, but I think it’s a pretty good distillation of what others have written.

  342. The short version – Because it’s fncking RUSSIA!!! (Duh…)
    I’m being sort of cute with that, but I think it’s a pretty good distillation of what others have written.

  343. I think Nigel does make a good point. Russia has a much longer history of invading and taking over its neighbors. (Or at least trying to.) Including in the last couple of decades. The neighbors remember. And many of those neighbors are folks rather likely to be reflexively seen by most Americans as “people like us” — which may be narrow-minded and/or ethnocentric and/or racist, but doesn’t change the reality.
    Saudi Arabia (for one example) does not have tht history. The Arabs boiling out of the peninsula to spread Islam was a thousand years ago. And in our lifetimes, Yemen is pretty much a new departure for them. They’ve certainly meddled, and not just by funding mosques peddling their own (previously obscure) version of Islam. But a large and military incursion is new.
    One can argue about whether various other human rights abusers that we deal with are less threatening to those outside their borders, or just lack the means to undertake foreign military adventures. But the fact is that they generally don’t.
    I think it’s easier to turn a blind eye to a country’s internal bad deeds than to their foreign ones.

  344. I think Nigel does make a good point. Russia has a much longer history of invading and taking over its neighbors. (Or at least trying to.) Including in the last couple of decades. The neighbors remember. And many of those neighbors are folks rather likely to be reflexively seen by most Americans as “people like us” — which may be narrow-minded and/or ethnocentric and/or racist, but doesn’t change the reality.
    Saudi Arabia (for one example) does not have tht history. The Arabs boiling out of the peninsula to spread Islam was a thousand years ago. And in our lifetimes, Yemen is pretty much a new departure for them. They’ve certainly meddled, and not just by funding mosques peddling their own (previously obscure) version of Islam. But a large and military incursion is new.
    One can argue about whether various other human rights abusers that we deal with are less threatening to those outside their borders, or just lack the means to undertake foreign military adventures. But the fact is that they generally don’t.
    I think it’s easier to turn a blind eye to a country’s internal bad deeds than to their foreign ones.

  345. “When did Saudia Arabia get nuclear-tipped ICBMs?”
    The implied argument behind the snark doesn’t actually work. If Trump is the Manchurian candidate working for Russia, the Russians are unlikely to nuke us. Some of the people criticizing Trump (Michael Morell, for example) seem much more likely to push us into war with Russia if they have the chance. If you want to worry about nuclear war because of Trump, or any war because of Trump, you want to look at Iran or China or North Korea. Some of the Trumpies are itching for a war with Iran. Iran doesn’t have nukes, but the long term incentive changes in favor of getting them (or buying them) if we push them. I think Trump has backed down from getting out of the treaty, but he is Trump, so who knows? I think he has also backed down from picking a fight with China, but again, who knows? North Korea and Trump are equally hard to figure out, which could make things exciting there.
    But as far as planned wars are concerned, as opposed to stumbling into one with China, I think the place to worry about is Iran, and the Saudis and Israelis are the ones who want us to take care of their problems there and btw, they seem to have an enormous amount of influence with Congress, which drives me freaking nuts when people focus on Russia like foreign influence is something new. What have we been up to in the Mideast and central Asia for the past few decades? War after war after war, some with ground troops, some with air power only and some by proxy and most of them involved the Saudis directly or indirectly. Israel is in there too, pushing for us to fight their enemies.
    The wikileaks documents only seems to interest people now because of who probably stole them, but there were some interesting foreign policy tidbits in there, which for the most part got less attention than people talking about the meaningless office gossip and backbiting in the Clinton campaign. The political conversations in this country are mindnumbingly stupid. In a bad mood, which I am in right now, I’d say a President Trump is long overdue. Not in a good way, but because any country this shallow deserves to be ruled by a contemptible self absorbed moron. I don’t really mean that, because lots of innocent people are going to be hurt by this jackass. But there is a certain level of frustration with what I see in the press and in many blogs.
    With Russia, the odd thing is that some of Trump’s picks are not as crazy about Putin as he is, but it doesn’t make much sense to say that Trump is Putin’s abject admirer and therefore we have to worry about nuclear war with Russia.

  346. “When did Saudia Arabia get nuclear-tipped ICBMs?”
    The implied argument behind the snark doesn’t actually work. If Trump is the Manchurian candidate working for Russia, the Russians are unlikely to nuke us. Some of the people criticizing Trump (Michael Morell, for example) seem much more likely to push us into war with Russia if they have the chance. If you want to worry about nuclear war because of Trump, or any war because of Trump, you want to look at Iran or China or North Korea. Some of the Trumpies are itching for a war with Iran. Iran doesn’t have nukes, but the long term incentive changes in favor of getting them (or buying them) if we push them. I think Trump has backed down from getting out of the treaty, but he is Trump, so who knows? I think he has also backed down from picking a fight with China, but again, who knows? North Korea and Trump are equally hard to figure out, which could make things exciting there.
    But as far as planned wars are concerned, as opposed to stumbling into one with China, I think the place to worry about is Iran, and the Saudis and Israelis are the ones who want us to take care of their problems there and btw, they seem to have an enormous amount of influence with Congress, which drives me freaking nuts when people focus on Russia like foreign influence is something new. What have we been up to in the Mideast and central Asia for the past few decades? War after war after war, some with ground troops, some with air power only and some by proxy and most of them involved the Saudis directly or indirectly. Israel is in there too, pushing for us to fight their enemies.
    The wikileaks documents only seems to interest people now because of who probably stole them, but there were some interesting foreign policy tidbits in there, which for the most part got less attention than people talking about the meaningless office gossip and backbiting in the Clinton campaign. The political conversations in this country are mindnumbingly stupid. In a bad mood, which I am in right now, I’d say a President Trump is long overdue. Not in a good way, but because any country this shallow deserves to be ruled by a contemptible self absorbed moron. I don’t really mean that, because lots of innocent people are going to be hurt by this jackass. But there is a certain level of frustration with what I see in the press and in many blogs.
    With Russia, the odd thing is that some of Trump’s picks are not as crazy about Putin as he is, but it doesn’t make much sense to say that Trump is Putin’s abject admirer and therefore we have to worry about nuclear war with Russia.

  347. …but it doesn’t make much sense to say that Trump is Putin’s abject admirer and therefore we have to worry about nuclear war with Russia.
    Maybe not with us … for now. And I’m not too confident in Trump’s ability to detect and prevent being manipulated by the likes of Putin.

  348. …but it doesn’t make much sense to say that Trump is Putin’s abject admirer and therefore we have to worry about nuclear war with Russia.
    Maybe not with us … for now. And I’m not too confident in Trump’s ability to detect and prevent being manipulated by the likes of Putin.

  349. But as far as planned wars are concerned, as opposed to stumbling into one with China, I think the place to worry about is Iran
    I actually think North Korea is more likely to see military action. We might be more likely to be the ones initiating action against Iran. But the Iranians seem unlikely to launch an attack, against Israel or anybody else. They, even the religious fanatics among their leaders, are a little too grounded in reality to commit suicide that way.
    Kim, in contrast, seems to assume he can get away with pretty much anything he likes. What constrains him is mostly that he doesn’t, yet, have the resources required to act. Once he thinks he is in a position to threaten to hit the US with a nuke, I can see him believing that the US would just stand by while he invades South Korea.
    And assuming that he could take the South, at least if the US et al. don’t act, is not totally crazy. Seoul is close under a huge number of well dug in northern guns, and could get pretty well leveled in a day. The North probably couldn’t win a protracted war, but Kim might figure they could win fast.
    Would the US just stand aside (at least if the North was careful not to directly attack US bases)? I suspect not — although I can see where the current administration might. But if Kim thinks we would….

  350. But as far as planned wars are concerned, as opposed to stumbling into one with China, I think the place to worry about is Iran
    I actually think North Korea is more likely to see military action. We might be more likely to be the ones initiating action against Iran. But the Iranians seem unlikely to launch an attack, against Israel or anybody else. They, even the religious fanatics among their leaders, are a little too grounded in reality to commit suicide that way.
    Kim, in contrast, seems to assume he can get away with pretty much anything he likes. What constrains him is mostly that he doesn’t, yet, have the resources required to act. Once he thinks he is in a position to threaten to hit the US with a nuke, I can see him believing that the US would just stand by while he invades South Korea.
    And assuming that he could take the South, at least if the US et al. don’t act, is not totally crazy. Seoul is close under a huge number of well dug in northern guns, and could get pretty well leveled in a day. The North probably couldn’t win a protracted war, but Kim might figure they could win fast.
    Would the US just stand aside (at least if the North was careful not to directly attack US bases)? I suspect not — although I can see where the current administration might. But if Kim thinks we would….

  353. “Would the US just stand aside (at least if the North was careful not to directly attack US bases)?”
    No and, not very likely that they could get from point a to point b without putting US troops in harms way, so no.

  354. “Would the US just stand aside (at least if the North was careful not to directly attack US bases)?”
    No and, not very likely that they could get from point a to point b without putting US troops in harms way, so no.

  355. Aye, that was always put forth as the practical reason for heavy Army concentrations in ROK – in the most concrete, indisputable manner possible, they represent a promise that the US absolutely will not stand by in the event of an invasion. Even if Trump wanted to stand by, he’d only be able to if he redeployed the 2ID et al before the invasion occurred – if we were still there when the DMZ was compromised, the ensuing casualties would raise the domestic cost of withdrawal to an entirely politically infeasible level.

  356. Aye, that was always put forth as the practical reason for heavy Army concentrations in ROK – in the most concrete, indisputable manner possible, they represent a promise that the US absolutely will not stand by in the event of an invasion. Even if Trump wanted to stand by, he’d only be able to if he redeployed the 2ID et al before the invasion occurred – if we were still there when the DMZ was compromised, the ensuing casualties would raise the domestic cost of withdrawal to an entirely politically infeasible level.

  357. Marty, NV,
    Why would Trump worry about Fake News concerning what was happening in Korea? Seriously, it’s not at all clear that politically inconvenient facts penetrate his fantasy world (“this administration is running like a fine-tuned machine”).

  358. Marty, NV,
    Why would Trump worry about Fake News concerning what was happening in Korea? Seriously, it’s not at all clear that politically inconvenient facts penetrate his fantasy world (“this administration is running like a fine-tuned machine”).

  359. Because there would be open revolt among the nationalist portion of his base. He’s not living in a bubble even if it may seem like it at times, and even to the degree that he tries to be, there are too many people with a foot inside that bubble who wouldn’t let him ignore it. If he were really living in a fantasy world, he would never have been elected. His world is spin, not fantasy.

  360. Because there would be open revolt among the nationalist portion of his base. He’s not living in a bubble even if it may seem like it at times, and even to the degree that he tries to be, there are too many people with a foot inside that bubble who wouldn’t let him ignore it. If he were really living in a fantasy world, he would never have been elected. His world is spin, not fantasy.

  361. I don’t usually stay up late enough to watch Colbert. So I don’t know if what’s standard, and what’s novel. But tonight I was up (to see Julie Andrews; some things are important).
    The show led off with “self-reflections” — quotes from Trump (in his own voice) running down Obama . . . over images of Trump. Brutal.

  362. I don’t usually stay up late enough to watch Colbert. So I don’t know if what’s standard, and what’s novel. But tonight I was up (to see Julie Andrews; some things are important).
    The show led off with “self-reflections” — quotes from Trump (in his own voice) running down Obama . . . over images of Trump. Brutal.

  363. Happiness is reading a nice long thread replete with lefty snowflake meltdowns over the childish hallucinations that keep them awake at night. Irony is reading that they think Trump is insane.
    You guys are pathetic losers and it is more apparent than ever. Take your meds before it’s too late. better yet, double the dose. You need it.

  364. Happiness is reading a nice long thread replete with lefty snowflake meltdowns over the childish hallucinations that keep them awake at night. Irony is reading that they think Trump is insane.
    You guys are pathetic losers and it is more apparent than ever. Take your meds before it’s too late. better yet, double the dose. You need it.

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