by Eric Martin
“The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons.”
-Fyodor Dostoevsky
Glenn Greenwald has unearthed some disturbing accounts of the five month (and counting) detention of Army Private Bradley Manning, the suspect accused of leaking classified material to WikiLeaks. Again, he is a suspect who is accused of a crime:
From the beginning of his detention, Manning has been held in intensive solitary confinement. For 23 out of 24 hours every day—for seven straight months and counting—he sits completely alone in his cell. Even inside his cell, his activities are heavily restricted; he’s barred even from exercising and is under constant surveillance to enforce those restrictions. For reasons that appear completely punitive, he’s being denied many of the most basic attributes of civilized imprisonment, including even a pillow or sheets for his bed (he is not and never has been on suicide watch). For the one hour per day when he is freed from this isolation, he is barred from accessing any news or current events programs. Lt. Villiard protested that the conditions are not “like jail movies where someone gets thrown into the hole,” but confirmed that he is in solitary confinement, entirely alone in his cell except for the one hour per day he is taken out.
In sum, Manning has been subjected for many months without pause to inhumane, personality-erasing, soul-destroying, insanity-inducing conditions of isolation similar to those perfected at America’s Supermax prison in Florence, Colorado: all without so much as having been convicted of anything. And as is true of many prisoners subjected to warped treatment of this sort, the brig’s medical personnel now administer regular doses of anti-depressants to Manning to prevent his brain from snapping from the effects of this isolation.
Just by itself, the type of prolonged solitary confinement to which Manning has been subjected for many months is widely viewed around the world as highly injurious, inhumane, punitive, and arguably even a form of torture. In his widely praised March, 2009 New Yorker article — entitled "Is Long-Term Solitary Confinement Torture?" — the surgeon and journalist Atul Gawande assembled expert opinion and personal anecdotes to demonstrate that, as he put it, "all human beings experience isolation as torture." By itself, prolonged solitary confinement routinely destroys a person’s mind and drives them into insanity. A March, 2010 article in The Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law explains that "solitary confinement is recognized as difficult to withstand; indeed, psychological stressors such as isolation can be as clinically distressing as physical torture."
While his status as innocent until proven guilty renders this treatment exceedingly reprehensible, it should be noted that even subjecting the guilty to such inhumane punishment is beneath the principles of the United States. Or at least, it should be.
For those unfamiliar with the harrowing effects of prolonged solitary confinement and why there is little doubt that excessive use is the equivalent of a very severe form of torture, in addition to the links and descriptions provided in Greenwald's post, Hilzoy's masterful three part series on the treatement of Jose Padilla (Part III, with links to prior parts, here), as well as this follow up piece, is highly, highly recommended.
In particular, Charles Dickens' words from Hilzoy's follow up are heart wrenching:
I believe that very few men are capable of estimating the immense amount of torture and agony which this dreadful punishment, prolonged for years, inflicts upon the sufferers; and in guessing at it myself, and in reasoning from what I have seen written upon their faces, and what to my certain knowledge they feel within, I am only the more convinced that there is a depth of terrible endurance in it which none but the sufferers themselves can fathom, and which no man has a right to inflict upon his fellow-creature. I hold this slow and daily tampering with the mysteries of the brain, to be immeasurably worse than any torture of the body: and because its ghastly signs and tokens are not so palpable to the eye and sense of touch as scars upon the flesh; because its wounds are not upon the surface, and it extorts few cries that human ears can hear; therefore I the more denounce it, as a secret punishment which slumbering humanity is not roused up to stay. I hesitated once, debating with myself, whether, if I had the power of saying ‘Yes’ or ‘No,’ I would allow it to be tried in certain cases, where the terms of imprisonment were short; but now, I solemnly declare, that with no rewards or honours could I walk a happy man beneath the open sky by day, or lie me down upon my bed at night, with the consciousness that one human creature, for any length of time, no matter what, lay suffering this unknown punishment in his silent cell, and I the cause, or I consenting to it in the least degree.
John Cole captures the troubling sadism that this country has reverted to in the face of a terrorist threat and, predictably, how this warped mindset has begun to pervert the entire criminal justice system – not just the system putatively reserved for a certain class of supsects (not that such selectivity provides an excuse or justification):
There is absolutely no reason for this whatsoever, other than the fact that the United States has morphed into a brutal and repressive regime that is terrified of dissent. The only difference between this treatment and what we imagine third world nations do is that we have cleaner and more modern facilities. Hell, at this point Manning would probably welcome physical torture- it would be a welcome diversion.
And yet, this goes on every day in the greatest nation in the world, the home of the free and the land of the brave. Brought to our collective knees in terror of a rosy-cheeked private who had the balls to allow our lies to be published. And for that, we must emulate those great men who have gone before us- Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, and other great human rights leader, and publicly make a show of our ability to crush one man. Because that is what this is- a message to every one else. There is no other reason to be subjecting Manning to this behavior, as he could be safely secured at any county jailhouse in this nation. Hell, he could be returned to his unit and confined to quarters, and nothing would happen.
The treatment of Bradley Manning is microcosmic of a broader trend that does not speak well for the degree of civilization in our society. And yet we continue to lecture the world as if we were somehow exceptional.
you’ve got to pick up every stitch
you’ve got to pick up every stitch
“Lt. Villiard protested that the conditions are not “like jail movies where someone gets thrown into the hole,” but confirmed that he is in solitary confinement, entirely alone in his cell except for the one hour per day he is taken out.”
“OK, the conditions ARE like jail movies where someone gets thrown in the hole. But it’s DIFFERENT because we’re SPECIAL!”
“Lt. Villiard protested that the conditions are not “like jail movies where someone gets thrown into the hole,” but confirmed that he is in solitary confinement, entirely alone in his cell except for the one hour per day he is taken out.”
“OK, the conditions ARE like jail movies where someone gets thrown in the hole. But it’s DIFFERENT because we’re SPECIAL!”
Simple message, here and with Assange: it doesn’t matter what the law says. You’ll get your punishment whether you go to court or not. And if you don’t like it – what are you going to do about it?
Simple message, here and with Assange: it doesn’t matter what the law says. You’ll get your punishment whether you go to court or not. And if you don’t like it – what are you going to do about it?
And yet we continue to lecture the world as if we were somehow exceptional.
Whaddaya mean “we”, paleface? I suddenly feel the need to channel Gary here: SOME of “us” talk “as if we were somehow exceptional”. SOME of “us” may be OK with the government’s treatment of Manning.
But you’re not and I’m not, and since I like to think well of all of ObWi’s participants, I will assume (until proven wrong) that nobody here is OK with it either.
–TP
And yet we continue to lecture the world as if we were somehow exceptional.
Whaddaya mean “we”, paleface? I suddenly feel the need to channel Gary here: SOME of “us” talk “as if we were somehow exceptional”. SOME of “us” may be OK with the government’s treatment of Manning.
But you’re not and I’m not, and since I like to think well of all of ObWi’s participants, I will assume (until proven wrong) that nobody here is OK with it either.
–TP
TP: I don’t think “channeling Gary” requires ignoring the clear context that’s present within the same sentence you’re quoting. The “we” who “lecture the world” would plainly be the US as represented by our government, in the international community. Blog commenters don’t lecture the world – to be able to lecture someone, they have to at least know you exist.
At least I’m pretty sure that’s what Eric was saying. It was equally hypocritical for the USSR to lecture other countries about human rights; that doesn’t mean most Soviet citizens were pro-gulag.
This is sort of off topic but not really… because sadly I think most Americans are OK with this kind of abuse. At least, most Americans haven’t raised any objections about supermax prisons, or even the conditions in ordinary prisons. I would very much love for that to change.
TP: I don’t think “channeling Gary” requires ignoring the clear context that’s present within the same sentence you’re quoting. The “we” who “lecture the world” would plainly be the US as represented by our government, in the international community. Blog commenters don’t lecture the world – to be able to lecture someone, they have to at least know you exist.
At least I’m pretty sure that’s what Eric was saying. It was equally hypocritical for the USSR to lecture other countries about human rights; that doesn’t mean most Soviet citizens were pro-gulag.
This is sort of off topic but not really… because sadly I think most Americans are OK with this kind of abuse. At least, most Americans haven’t raised any objections about supermax prisons, or even the conditions in ordinary prisons. I would very much love for that to change.
Oh please. Doesn’t Manning have an attorney? Why doesn’t Greenwald mention him? Why are the blogs the spokespeople for Manning when, in fact, he has a lawyer: David E. Coombs. Why hasn’t Coombs complained about this – how about the fact that his mental health is being examined? Is this because his lawyer has asked for this?
Do we really have all of the facts here?
Oh please. Doesn’t Manning have an attorney? Why doesn’t Greenwald mention him? Why are the blogs the spokespeople for Manning when, in fact, he has a lawyer: David E. Coombs. Why hasn’t Coombs complained about this – how about the fact that his mental health is being examined? Is this because his lawyer has asked for this?
Do we really have all of the facts here?
That’s was my meaning. Hob explained it precisely.
Also, Hob, aren’t you a Phillies fan? Or do I have you confused with someone else?
That’s was my meaning. Hob explained it precisely.
Also, Hob, aren’t you a Phillies fan? Or do I have you confused with someone else?
Hob: “sadly I think most Americans are OK with this kind of abuse. At least, most Americans haven’t raised any objections about supermax prisons, or even the conditions in ordinary prisons. I would very much love for that to change.”
Now, this is something I can agree with. Prison conditions are horrendous, and there’s precious little anyone can do about it. But to say that Manning is a political prisoner being tortured along “terrorism” lines is kind of ridiculous and totally uncalled for without recognizing that he has a true spokesperson. That person is not Glenn Greenwald, It’s his attorney. Has anyone actually looked at the case itself? Or is Glenn’s diatribe considered “truth” beyond further examination?
Hob: “sadly I think most Americans are OK with this kind of abuse. At least, most Americans haven’t raised any objections about supermax prisons, or even the conditions in ordinary prisons. I would very much love for that to change.”
Now, this is something I can agree with. Prison conditions are horrendous, and there’s precious little anyone can do about it. But to say that Manning is a political prisoner being tortured along “terrorism” lines is kind of ridiculous and totally uncalled for without recognizing that he has a true spokesperson. That person is not Glenn Greenwald, It’s his attorney. Has anyone actually looked at the case itself? Or is Glenn’s diatribe considered “truth” beyond further examination?
Sapient: Greenwald stated in the comments to that post (I’m not sure why he didn’t include it in the update) that he has been speaking with Manning’s attorney. The other person, House, was only cited for the specific claim about TV news being restricted.
Greenwald also says that he communicated directly with Brian Villiard, the public affairs officer for the Quantico base (GG refers to him as a “brig official”, but according to other unrelated news stories online he seems to be a spokesman), after publication of the article, and that Villiard read the entire article and stated that there was only one factual error in it: House’s claim about TV news.
So unless Greenwald is blatantly lying about all of the above in a widely read forum– in which case I would be amazed if we didn’t hear some loud complaints about that from Villiard and/or Coombs very soon– I don’t see any reason to be so dismissive of this story.
Sapient: Greenwald stated in the comments to that post (I’m not sure why he didn’t include it in the update) that he has been speaking with Manning’s attorney. The other person, House, was only cited for the specific claim about TV news being restricted.
Greenwald also says that he communicated directly with Brian Villiard, the public affairs officer for the Quantico base (GG refers to him as a “brig official”, but according to other unrelated news stories online he seems to be a spokesman), after publication of the article, and that Villiard read the entire article and stated that there was only one factual error in it: House’s claim about TV news.
So unless Greenwald is blatantly lying about all of the above in a widely read forum– in which case I would be amazed if we didn’t hear some loud complaints about that from Villiard and/or Coombs very soon– I don’t see any reason to be so dismissive of this story.
Sapient, I should also say that I would find it odd if we didn’t see any more direct statement about this from Coombs through any channels other than Greenwald after today. But someone had to break the story; Greenwald has a widely read column and Coombs doesn’t. I find it highly plausible that either Coombs knew of Greenwald and contacted him (say whatever else you like about GG, but he is clearly the guy to go to to publicize a civil liberties case), or Coombs was holding off on talking to the press for whatever reason but Greenwald managed to get through to him. This is one of the things reporters are for.
Sapient, I should also say that I would find it odd if we didn’t see any more direct statement about this from Coombs through any channels other than Greenwald after today. But someone had to break the story; Greenwald has a widely read column and Coombs doesn’t. I find it highly plausible that either Coombs knew of Greenwald and contacted him (say whatever else you like about GG, but he is clearly the guy to go to to publicize a civil liberties case), or Coombs was holding off on talking to the press for whatever reason but Greenwald managed to get through to him. This is one of the things reporters are for.
Eric: Not me. Used to live in PA but never declared an affiliation that way.
Eric: Not me. Used to live in PA but never declared an affiliation that way.
Hob, Greenwald is a fierce advocate. I respect him for that, but have a problem with the way he advocates, in that he doesn’t acknowledge facts or law that don’t support his position. He may well be in contact with Manning’s attorney – he’s probably saying things that Manning’s attorney wouldn’t say himself because the attorney would have to adhere to professional responsibility standards. I don’t think Greenwald is a wholesale liar. But, unfortunately, since Manning’s actual case is going on in legal courts, rather than blog courts, there are probably nuanced facts and legal issues that aren’t being presented by Greenwald or Olbermann, or others who are trying to prove a political point.
And, not that their political point is wrong, by the way. It’s just that when these fights are fought in the court of public opinion rather than the court of law, there’s a lot of really important nuance lost in translation. It’s my understanding that Manning’s psychiatric status is being examined. Someone should find out what the normal procedure for that is. In other words, there are more general criminal justice issues at stake here, that nobody on this blog seems to get exorcised about unless Glenn Greenwald seems to thing it’s a “political prisoner” matter (of course, reflecting poorly on Obama as President).
In fact, Manning’s treatment might be egregious. There might or might not be routine alternatives. But he did (apparently) violate the law and his orders as a military enlisted person. If we think that military enlisted people ought to be able to do whatever the hell they want, including making classified information known to the world (including US citizens and the enemies of the US) we should say so. If we think the prison system sucks, we should say so. If we think that Manning is being treated differently from other enlisted people accused of things and subject to psychiatric evaluation, we should say so, based that on facts. (And we should include the possibility that the lawyer, himself, wants a psychiatric evaluation, and inquire whether he’s fighting for a speedier trial, or alternative disposition of the case).
Hob, Greenwald is a fierce advocate. I respect him for that, but have a problem with the way he advocates, in that he doesn’t acknowledge facts or law that don’t support his position. He may well be in contact with Manning’s attorney – he’s probably saying things that Manning’s attorney wouldn’t say himself because the attorney would have to adhere to professional responsibility standards. I don’t think Greenwald is a wholesale liar. But, unfortunately, since Manning’s actual case is going on in legal courts, rather than blog courts, there are probably nuanced facts and legal issues that aren’t being presented by Greenwald or Olbermann, or others who are trying to prove a political point.
And, not that their political point is wrong, by the way. It’s just that when these fights are fought in the court of public opinion rather than the court of law, there’s a lot of really important nuance lost in translation. It’s my understanding that Manning’s psychiatric status is being examined. Someone should find out what the normal procedure for that is. In other words, there are more general criminal justice issues at stake here, that nobody on this blog seems to get exorcised about unless Glenn Greenwald seems to thing it’s a “political prisoner” matter (of course, reflecting poorly on Obama as President).
In fact, Manning’s treatment might be egregious. There might or might not be routine alternatives. But he did (apparently) violate the law and his orders as a military enlisted person. If we think that military enlisted people ought to be able to do whatever the hell they want, including making classified information known to the world (including US citizens and the enemies of the US) we should say so. If we think the prison system sucks, we should say so. If we think that Manning is being treated differently from other enlisted people accused of things and subject to psychiatric evaluation, we should say so, based that on facts. (And we should include the possibility that the lawyer, himself, wants a psychiatric evaluation, and inquire whether he’s fighting for a speedier trial, or alternative disposition of the case).
Hob, I’m pretty sure that Manning’s lawyer could call a press conference, and the press would come. I sincerely doubt that he’d have trouble getting the word out. You might well be right that he contacted Greenwald in order to propel a political movement on his client’s behalf. But it’s my understanding that he’s a very competent attorney (supposedly charging Manning $100,000 dollars, part of which WikiLeaks has promised to pay, but has not payed), so I’m pretty sure that the reason we’re hearing from Greenwald is for PR, not legal reasons. Since I’m not in the Greenwald = Saint Club, I’m skeptical.
Hob, I’m pretty sure that Manning’s lawyer could call a press conference, and the press would come. I sincerely doubt that he’d have trouble getting the word out. You might well be right that he contacted Greenwald in order to propel a political movement on his client’s behalf. But it’s my understanding that he’s a very competent attorney (supposedly charging Manning $100,000 dollars, part of which WikiLeaks has promised to pay, but has not payed), so I’m pretty sure that the reason we’re hearing from Greenwald is for PR, not legal reasons. Since I’m not in the Greenwald = Saint Club, I’m skeptical.
sapient,
is the attorney in question a MILITARY attorney (or whatever the term is, advocate?) or a CIVILIAN attorney? Since Manning is facing military charges, he might not have a civilian attorney (and no way to get one but to pay for one himself)
Big difference. I don’t think military attorney can just call a press conference and complain about how their “client” is treated.
sapient,
is the attorney in question a MILITARY attorney (or whatever the term is, advocate?) or a CIVILIAN attorney? Since Manning is facing military charges, he might not have a civilian attorney (and no way to get one but to pay for one himself)
Big difference. I don’t think military attorney can just call a press conference and complain about how their “client” is treated.
Sapient: But none of those are reasons to respond as you did: “Oh please.”
Of course Greenwald is an advocate. That’s why I find it so plausible that Coombs chose him to break this story (or decided to let him break it). And as I said, I would hope and expect that other reporters would follow up on this so we’re not just hearing it from Greenwald. But for crying out loud, this story was published seven hours ago.
Do you normally rush to say “oh please”, and focus on who is qualified to be whose spokesperson, as soon as a story of prisoner abuse is reported by someone who’s known to have a point of view on such things? Should reports from all human rights advocacy groups, or reporters like Amy Goodman, be not only received skeptically but mocked?
And I can’t understand what point you’re trying to make about Manning getting a psychiatric evaluation. As far as I can tell, neither Greenwald nor anyone else has said it’s a bad thing for a prisoner to be evaluated by a psychiatrist; the point was that psychiatric studies of other prisoners have revealed that conditions like this are, not surprisingly, bad for people. If you’re talking about something else, please explain.
Finally, this…
…is a ridiculous strawman corresponding to nothing anyone here has said, and it suggests to me that you didn’t actually read Eric’s post or are not interested in actually responding to it. Specifically the part where he said:
Sapient: But none of those are reasons to respond as you did: “Oh please.”
Of course Greenwald is an advocate. That’s why I find it so plausible that Coombs chose him to break this story (or decided to let him break it). And as I said, I would hope and expect that other reporters would follow up on this so we’re not just hearing it from Greenwald. But for crying out loud, this story was published seven hours ago.
Do you normally rush to say “oh please”, and focus on who is qualified to be whose spokesperson, as soon as a story of prisoner abuse is reported by someone who’s known to have a point of view on such things? Should reports from all human rights advocacy groups, or reporters like Amy Goodman, be not only received skeptically but mocked?
And I can’t understand what point you’re trying to make about Manning getting a psychiatric evaluation. As far as I can tell, neither Greenwald nor anyone else has said it’s a bad thing for a prisoner to be evaluated by a psychiatrist; the point was that psychiatric studies of other prisoners have revealed that conditions like this are, not surprisingly, bad for people. If you’re talking about something else, please explain.
Finally, this…
…is a ridiculous strawman corresponding to nothing anyone here has said, and it suggests to me that you didn’t actually read Eric’s post or are not interested in actually responding to it. Specifically the part where he said:
Snarki: “Big difference. I don’t think military attorney can just call a press conference and complain about how their “client” is treated.”
Do your own research – this is pretty easy to find. http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.com/
Snarki: “Big difference. I don’t think military attorney can just call a press conference and complain about how their “client” is treated.”
Do your own research – this is pretty easy to find. http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.com/
Hob, Eric is basically using Manning as a poster child in order to allege some kind of Obama administration political prisoner policy. Sure, fine, go right ahead. And Glenn Greenwald too, and Ralph Nader too. They’re all doing the same extremely productive work of undermining the fight against the actual American Nazi party, the Republicans. So sure, go right ahead. In the meantime, ask yourself, why:
“Manning’s attorney, David Coombs did not return calls for comment.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/15/bradley-manning-wikileaks-charges-_n_797276.html
Maybe because the situation is more complicated than Greenwald suggests?
Hob, Eric is basically using Manning as a poster child in order to allege some kind of Obama administration political prisoner policy. Sure, fine, go right ahead. And Glenn Greenwald too, and Ralph Nader too. They’re all doing the same extremely productive work of undermining the fight against the actual American Nazi party, the Republicans. So sure, go right ahead. In the meantime, ask yourself, why:
“Manning’s attorney, David Coombs did not return calls for comment.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/15/bradley-manning-wikileaks-charges-_n_797276.html
Maybe because the situation is more complicated than Greenwald suggests?
Excuse me? It’s pretty hard to see you as arguing in good faith when you say something like that. It’s the same as the “if you don’t criticize Obama as much or in the same way as I do, you must be an Obot who thinks he’s the Messiah” b.s.– which Greenwald himself resorts to way too often.
I’m not in your alleged club and I doubt anyone else here is. I’ve had serious problems with some of Greenwald’s stuff. If you’ve read any Internet commentary at all related to Greenwald, you surely must know that there are plenty of people who have very mixed feelings about the guy, but who can still evaluate what he writes on its own merits. You can’t possibly believe that it’s just you (and the True Skeptics who share your opinion) versus the Saint GG Club. So please stop being pointlessly insulting.
I have no idea what you mean by this. I never said it was for legal reasons.
Excuse me? It’s pretty hard to see you as arguing in good faith when you say something like that. It’s the same as the “if you don’t criticize Obama as much or in the same way as I do, you must be an Obot who thinks he’s the Messiah” b.s.– which Greenwald himself resorts to way too often.
I’m not in your alleged club and I doubt anyone else here is. I’ve had serious problems with some of Greenwald’s stuff. If you’ve read any Internet commentary at all related to Greenwald, you surely must know that there are plenty of people who have very mixed feelings about the guy, but who can still evaluate what he writes on its own merits. You can’t possibly believe that it’s just you (and the True Skeptics who share your opinion) versus the Saint GG Club. So please stop being pointlessly insulting.
I have no idea what you mean by this. I never said it was for legal reasons.
Hob and Eric,
I was being snarky about “we”. But not totally. The thread is still young. Give it another 50 comments or so, and then let’s revisit the question of whether it’s wise to lump ourselves together with those “we” who make excuses for “our” government.
–TP
Hob and Eric,
I was being snarky about “we”. But not totally. The thread is still young. Give it another 50 comments or so, and then let’s revisit the question of whether it’s wise to lump ourselves together with those “we” who make excuses for “our” government.
–TP
But, unfortunately, since Manning’s actual case is going on in legal courts, rather than blog courts, there are probably nuanced facts and legal issues that aren’t being presented by Greenwald or Olbermann, or others who are trying to prove a political point.
Guess we shouldn’t ever talk about anything then, with all these potential unknowns out there.
But, unfortunately, since Manning’s actual case is going on in legal courts, rather than blog courts, there are probably nuanced facts and legal issues that aren’t being presented by Greenwald or Olbermann, or others who are trying to prove a political point.
Guess we shouldn’t ever talk about anything then, with all these potential unknowns out there.
Is there some dispute over whether Manning is being held in solitary confinement? I’d seen that in the NYT months ago. Is the dispute over whether solitary confinement is humane? As Eric noted, hilzoy wrote some very good posts about that years ago. Or is the really important issue the possible besmirching of Obama’s reputation?
Is there some dispute over whether Manning is being held in solitary confinement? I’d seen that in the NYT months ago. Is the dispute over whether solitary confinement is humane? As Eric noted, hilzoy wrote some very good posts about that years ago. Or is the really important issue the possible besmirching of Obama’s reputation?
“Guess we shouldn’t ever talk about anything then, with all these potential unknowns out there.”
No, actually, we should talk about a lot of things. I just don’t think we should take Glenn Greenwald’s narrative about Manning as conclusive. Maybe we should ask a couple of questions?
Hob, I apologize if I’ve put you in the category I described. I used to enjoy reading Greenwald and even engaging in the comments, but over time have become very disillusioned by the commenters there who seem to be mere sycophants. Eric citing Greenwald, and John Cole citing Greenwald, seems to be: Greenwald. Not to say that Greenwald isn’t a good person to listen to, but he’s not a sole source. And, by the way, I love John Cole’s blog and often agree with him.
But, again, Eric citing Greenwald and Cole (citing Greenwald): why not just be reading Greenwald? And what about the other questions I’ve asked? Like, why is Manning’s attorney speaking through Greenwald when it seems pretty apparent that most news organizations would be quite interested in Manning’s attorney’s take, but he’s “not available for comment”?
These are other questions that might be asked:
How is Manning being treated differently from other criminal defendants?
Has Manning’s attorney brought a “Motion to Show Cause” or any other procedural motion or tried anything else to challenge what Manning is going through?
Does Manning’s attorney approve of the procedure for determining Manning’s psychological state? Has he challenged it?
What, exactly, has Manning’s attorney done? Is he (a private attorney) competently representing him?
And if this were Dick Cheney being tried, would we be listening to his political advocates to determine whether he was being fairly treated? Or would we try to find out what was going on through his spokemen, versus government spokesmen? And if those spokespeople weren’t commenting, how would we make a judgment? Would we be going to Glenn Greenwald? Or Nina Totenberg? Or would there be someone else who we trusted to present the truth? i (sorry to say – shoot me) don’t trust Glenn Greenwald’s slant. i think he’s got a point, but I don’t think he’s got the answer.
“Guess we shouldn’t ever talk about anything then, with all these potential unknowns out there.”
No, actually, we should talk about a lot of things. I just don’t think we should take Glenn Greenwald’s narrative about Manning as conclusive. Maybe we should ask a couple of questions?
Hob, I apologize if I’ve put you in the category I described. I used to enjoy reading Greenwald and even engaging in the comments, but over time have become very disillusioned by the commenters there who seem to be mere sycophants. Eric citing Greenwald, and John Cole citing Greenwald, seems to be: Greenwald. Not to say that Greenwald isn’t a good person to listen to, but he’s not a sole source. And, by the way, I love John Cole’s blog and often agree with him.
But, again, Eric citing Greenwald and Cole (citing Greenwald): why not just be reading Greenwald? And what about the other questions I’ve asked? Like, why is Manning’s attorney speaking through Greenwald when it seems pretty apparent that most news organizations would be quite interested in Manning’s attorney’s take, but he’s “not available for comment”?
These are other questions that might be asked:
How is Manning being treated differently from other criminal defendants?
Has Manning’s attorney brought a “Motion to Show Cause” or any other procedural motion or tried anything else to challenge what Manning is going through?
Does Manning’s attorney approve of the procedure for determining Manning’s psychological state? Has he challenged it?
What, exactly, has Manning’s attorney done? Is he (a private attorney) competently representing him?
And if this were Dick Cheney being tried, would we be listening to his political advocates to determine whether he was being fairly treated? Or would we try to find out what was going on through his spokemen, versus government spokesmen? And if those spokespeople weren’t commenting, how would we make a judgment? Would we be going to Glenn Greenwald? Or Nina Totenberg? Or would there be someone else who we trusted to present the truth? i (sorry to say – shoot me) don’t trust Glenn Greenwald’s slant. i think he’s got a point, but I don’t think he’s got the answer.
On a purely non-legal level:
Manning, if he did what is alleged is probably going to be in prison the rest of his life, and will have deserved it.
Which I think is sad because he seems to have done it, from what I can tell, out of a stupid gee whiz hacker attitude that I can totally relate to.
But even if he did what is alleged, he doesn’t deserve the torture of solitary, so if he is being subjected to that, it should stop.
On a purely non-legal level:
Manning, if he did what is alleged is probably going to be in prison the rest of his life, and will have deserved it.
Which I think is sad because he seems to have done it, from what I can tell, out of a stupid gee whiz hacker attitude that I can totally relate to.
But even if he did what is alleged, he doesn’t deserve the torture of solitary, so if he is being subjected to that, it should stop.
@Sapient:
If we think that Manning is being treated differently from other enlisted people accused of things and subject to psychiatric evaluation, we should say so, based that on facts.
I have… some familiarity with military correctional procedures and regulations*. I don’t know the specifics of his case, but holding him in maximum custody as a pre-trial does not sound like it is justified on the merits. As in, according to regulations governing custody classifications. Given the leeway military confinement facility commanders have in making classification determinations, I find it difficult to believe that his custody classification is intended to serve a penological rather than punitive purpose.
*Full disclosure (well, as full as I’m gonna give): most of my experience is with Army corrections regs and procs, with only a dash of Navy thrown in. But all military confinement facilities aim to adhere to certain (defined, accrediting) standards. They’re different, but not grossly so.
@Sapient:
If we think that Manning is being treated differently from other enlisted people accused of things and subject to psychiatric evaluation, we should say so, based that on facts.
I have… some familiarity with military correctional procedures and regulations*. I don’t know the specifics of his case, but holding him in maximum custody as a pre-trial does not sound like it is justified on the merits. As in, according to regulations governing custody classifications. Given the leeway military confinement facility commanders have in making classification determinations, I find it difficult to believe that his custody classification is intended to serve a penological rather than punitive purpose.
*Full disclosure (well, as full as I’m gonna give): most of my experience is with Army corrections regs and procs, with only a dash of Navy thrown in. But all military confinement facilities aim to adhere to certain (defined, accrediting) standards. They’re different, but not grossly so.
Well, if I were in the army, and entrusted with government secrets, then I sent all of the information that I could get hold of to someone who was going to publish it all over the Internet, would I expect that the government would, after apprehending me, let me blab all of that confidential information to my fellow inmates?
Solitary confinement (except for an hour a day – is that really solitary confinement?) may well be torture according to many psychologists, but courts have ruled that it is not cruel and unusual punishment. In other words, lots of inmates are subjected to it for one reason or another, and it conforms with the “rule of law.”
Maybe it’s a worthy political fight – for people to try to eliminate solitary confinement. The prison system is grossly punitive and not rehabilitative, and it’s not just solitary confinement that is objectionable. As I’m sure everyone here knows, many prisoners aren’t represented by competent counsel (which Manning is), are not given the benefit of exculpatory evidence, and (you name it) subjected to loads of other horrific injustices such as physical and sexual abuse by fellow inmates and prison guards, inadequate medical treatment, etc. All of these things are worth reforming.
I hope that Manning’s lawyer is zealously arguing for any legal advantage that Manning is entitled to, and that Manning obtains the justice that he deserves. I don’t know that he deserves any more consideration than thousands of other people who are lawfully incarcerated and badly treated.
Well, if I were in the army, and entrusted with government secrets, then I sent all of the information that I could get hold of to someone who was going to publish it all over the Internet, would I expect that the government would, after apprehending me, let me blab all of that confidential information to my fellow inmates?
Solitary confinement (except for an hour a day – is that really solitary confinement?) may well be torture according to many psychologists, but courts have ruled that it is not cruel and unusual punishment. In other words, lots of inmates are subjected to it for one reason or another, and it conforms with the “rule of law.”
Maybe it’s a worthy political fight – for people to try to eliminate solitary confinement. The prison system is grossly punitive and not rehabilitative, and it’s not just solitary confinement that is objectionable. As I’m sure everyone here knows, many prisoners aren’t represented by competent counsel (which Manning is), are not given the benefit of exculpatory evidence, and (you name it) subjected to loads of other horrific injustices such as physical and sexual abuse by fellow inmates and prison guards, inadequate medical treatment, etc. All of these things are worth reforming.
I hope that Manning’s lawyer is zealously arguing for any legal advantage that Manning is entitled to, and that Manning obtains the justice that he deserves. I don’t know that he deserves any more consideration than thousands of other people who are lawfully incarcerated and badly treated.
No, actually, we should talk about a lot of things. I just don’t think we should take Glenn Greenwald’s narrative about Manning as conclusive. Maybe we should ask a couple of questions?
That would be totally awesome, and much more interesting/useful that speculating that other facts *might* exist that would alter our view of these events and that *our* speculating without those speculative facts is a bad idea.
I do think that questions about his lawyer are something of a red herring; Seb gets to the heart of it but it’s worth repeating- if he is being held in solitary or some other type of confinement for punative reasons rather than security ones, then this is a very bad thing, regardless of whether his lawyer is competent or not or has a good media strategy.
Now, maybe there is an alternative explanation. And this is where Id rely on the media version of the adversarial system to work for us- if there’s some rationale, like this being standard procedure when a psych eval is requested or this is the only way they had of segmenting him from the regular population where they deemed him at risk, I would expect the government to say so.
But that would still leave questions like: why can’t he exercise, or have a pillow? If those statements are, in fact, true. Given that it would be a useless trashing of one’s credibility to assert things like that if they weren’t true, Id tentatively accept them for the moment.
In other words, there are more general criminal justice issues at stake here, that nobody on this blog seems to get exorcised about unless Glenn Greenwald seems to thing it’s a “political prisoner” matter (of course, reflecting poorly on Obama as President).
Ill have the ad hominen with a side of straw, please- so tasty and fresh.
(and was it really so long ago that Gary F was posting on “more general criminal justice issues”? Turns out, no.)
Hob, Eric is basically using Manning as a poster child in order to allege some kind of Obama administration political prisoner policy.
Interesting use of the language. “basically” = “totally unsupportable speculation / ad hominem”. If you’re going to redefine words on the fly like that, you probably ought to use footnotes so the rest of us can follow along. Otherwise, I’m sitting here scratching my head, wondering- what does this have to do with Obama? Where does Eric allege any sort of policy, let alone one dictated by the Executive branch?
Well, if I were in the army, and entrusted with government secrets, then I sent all of the information that I could get hold of to someone who was going to publish it all over the Internet, would I expect that the government would, after apprehending me, let me blab all of that confidential information to my fellow inmates?
If I were in the Army, Id understand that stopping someone from leaking information that has already been published on the internet is not a particularly compelling rationale. Id understand that there is little risk in his passing secrets on to his pillow.
Id probably also have taken my own advice about speculating. If I were in the Army.
No, actually, we should talk about a lot of things. I just don’t think we should take Glenn Greenwald’s narrative about Manning as conclusive. Maybe we should ask a couple of questions?
That would be totally awesome, and much more interesting/useful that speculating that other facts *might* exist that would alter our view of these events and that *our* speculating without those speculative facts is a bad idea.
I do think that questions about his lawyer are something of a red herring; Seb gets to the heart of it but it’s worth repeating- if he is being held in solitary or some other type of confinement for punative reasons rather than security ones, then this is a very bad thing, regardless of whether his lawyer is competent or not or has a good media strategy.
Now, maybe there is an alternative explanation. And this is where Id rely on the media version of the adversarial system to work for us- if there’s some rationale, like this being standard procedure when a psych eval is requested or this is the only way they had of segmenting him from the regular population where they deemed him at risk, I would expect the government to say so.
But that would still leave questions like: why can’t he exercise, or have a pillow? If those statements are, in fact, true. Given that it would be a useless trashing of one’s credibility to assert things like that if they weren’t true, Id tentatively accept them for the moment.
In other words, there are more general criminal justice issues at stake here, that nobody on this blog seems to get exorcised about unless Glenn Greenwald seems to thing it’s a “political prisoner” matter (of course, reflecting poorly on Obama as President).
Ill have the ad hominen with a side of straw, please- so tasty and fresh.
(and was it really so long ago that Gary F was posting on “more general criminal justice issues”? Turns out, no.)
Hob, Eric is basically using Manning as a poster child in order to allege some kind of Obama administration political prisoner policy.
Interesting use of the language. “basically” = “totally unsupportable speculation / ad hominem”. If you’re going to redefine words on the fly like that, you probably ought to use footnotes so the rest of us can follow along. Otherwise, I’m sitting here scratching my head, wondering- what does this have to do with Obama? Where does Eric allege any sort of policy, let alone one dictated by the Executive branch?
Well, if I were in the army, and entrusted with government secrets, then I sent all of the information that I could get hold of to someone who was going to publish it all over the Internet, would I expect that the government would, after apprehending me, let me blab all of that confidential information to my fellow inmates?
If I were in the Army, Id understand that stopping someone from leaking information that has already been published on the internet is not a particularly compelling rationale. Id understand that there is little risk in his passing secrets on to his pillow.
Id probably also have taken my own advice about speculating. If I were in the Army.
Does anybody know what the UCMJ has to say about this? Does it say anything different about the detention of individuals suspected of espionage or offenses where secret information is distributed?
Does anybody know what the UCMJ has to say about this? Does it say anything different about the detention of individuals suspected of espionage or offenses where secret information is distributed?
At least the airforce now seems to follow the policy of ‘close the stable door lest the horse may come back in!’ by blocking access to (among others) the NYT and The Guardian websites from their computers with the reasoning that ‘we can’t allow classified materials floating around in here’.
—
Another disgusting part of the Manning story is that allegations that he is gay is used by the usual supects in their crusade against gays in general and gays in the military in particular.
At least the airforce now seems to follow the policy of ‘close the stable door lest the horse may come back in!’ by blocking access to (among others) the NYT and The Guardian websites from their computers with the reasoning that ‘we can’t allow classified materials floating around in here’.
—
Another disgusting part of the Manning story is that allegations that he is gay is used by the usual supects in their crusade against gays in general and gays in the military in particular.
Hob, Eric is basically using Manning as a poster child in order to allege some kind of Obama administration political prisoner policy.
What Carleton Wu said about this. I don’t even mention Obama. I talk about our national psyche, and a turn toward repressive means, but that is not the point of my post.
And yes, one hour a day out of a cell is solitary confinement.
Also: keep in mind, this is a suspect. He has not been convicted of anything.
Finally, what Carleton Wu said: Manning seems like the LAST place someone would go to for WikiLeaks documents at this point in time. Why work from his recollection of what a million documents said when they are archived and searchable in databases in the Internet?
Hob, Eric is basically using Manning as a poster child in order to allege some kind of Obama administration political prisoner policy.
What Carleton Wu said about this. I don’t even mention Obama. I talk about our national psyche, and a turn toward repressive means, but that is not the point of my post.
And yes, one hour a day out of a cell is solitary confinement.
Also: keep in mind, this is a suspect. He has not been convicted of anything.
Finally, what Carleton Wu said: Manning seems like the LAST place someone would go to for WikiLeaks documents at this point in time. Why work from his recollection of what a million documents said when they are archived and searchable in databases in the Internet?
but that is not the point of my post
By this I mean that the point of my post is not about Obama’s political prisoner policy. Just that the new normal post 9/11 is disturbing.
Though as Hob points out, prison conditions in the US have been horrific for some time, and few people seem to care.
but that is not the point of my post
By this I mean that the point of my post is not about Obama’s political prisoner policy. Just that the new normal post 9/11 is disturbing.
Though as Hob points out, prison conditions in the US have been horrific for some time, and few people seem to care.
“Just that the new normal post 9/11 is disturbing.”
I don’t know that this is the “new normal” – it’s pretty much the same old “normal”. Manning is apparently being treated similarly to Robert Hanssen and Aldrich Ames. (Don’t know about their bedding situation, but they are both in solitary confinement.)
Again, I’m not defending the criminal justice system generally, or solitary confinement in particular, but people who disclose government secrets can probably expect to be treated like spies – harshly. Our law has allowed that for a very long time. (Don’t know what the pretrial detention of Hanssen or Ames looked like – maybe they were treated better before they were convicted. Somehow, I doubt it.)
And, yes, the Air Force is ridiculous to block news sites – they’re making themselves a laughing stock. And, yes, turning the Manning case into a gay bashing fest is disgusting, but not surprising from the “usual suspects.”
Eric, let me apologize for imputing Glenn Greenwald’s agenda (as I perceive it) onto you. Whether any prisoner deserves solitary confinement is certainly a worthy topic of discussion. It doesn’t seem to me, however, that Manning is being singled out for harsher treatment than anyone else who has disclosed government secrets to enemies. (Whether the information should be secret, etc., has been discussed elsewhere, but the fact remains that these were secrets, and he did allegedly disclose them – to friends, enemies and everyone else.)
“Just that the new normal post 9/11 is disturbing.”
I don’t know that this is the “new normal” – it’s pretty much the same old “normal”. Manning is apparently being treated similarly to Robert Hanssen and Aldrich Ames. (Don’t know about their bedding situation, but they are both in solitary confinement.)
Again, I’m not defending the criminal justice system generally, or solitary confinement in particular, but people who disclose government secrets can probably expect to be treated like spies – harshly. Our law has allowed that for a very long time. (Don’t know what the pretrial detention of Hanssen or Ames looked like – maybe they were treated better before they were convicted. Somehow, I doubt it.)
And, yes, the Air Force is ridiculous to block news sites – they’re making themselves a laughing stock. And, yes, turning the Manning case into a gay bashing fest is disgusting, but not surprising from the “usual suspects.”
Eric, let me apologize for imputing Glenn Greenwald’s agenda (as I perceive it) onto you. Whether any prisoner deserves solitary confinement is certainly a worthy topic of discussion. It doesn’t seem to me, however, that Manning is being singled out for harsher treatment than anyone else who has disclosed government secrets to enemies. (Whether the information should be secret, etc., has been discussed elsewhere, but the fact remains that these were secrets, and he did allegedly disclose them – to friends, enemies and everyone else.)
Don’t know what the pretrial detention of Hanssen or Ames looked like – maybe they were treated better before they were convicted. Somehow, I doubt it.)
Perhaps that’s maybe something you want to know before you go off half-cocked about what is or isn’t new or normal?
Don’t know what the pretrial detention of Hanssen or Ames looked like – maybe they were treated better before they were convicted. Somehow, I doubt it.)
Perhaps that’s maybe something you want to know before you go off half-cocked about what is or isn’t new or normal?
Gee, Private Manning, we might be able to do something about the conditions of your confinement if you, you know, helped us out with this Mr. Assange problem we have, are you sure you don’t remember in more detail how much he helped you get those documents? We have some suggestions here on how he might have done that, be sure to use the underlined language in your response (if it seems a little stilted, we lifted it directly from the federal criminal code).
Federal prosecutors, seeking to build a case against the WikiLeaks leader Julian Assange for his role in a huge dissemination of classified government documents, are looking for evidence of any collusion in his early contacts with an Army intelligence analyst suspected of leaking the information.
Justice Department officials are trying to find out whether Mr. Assange encouraged or even helped the analyst, Pfc. Bradley Manning, to extract classified military and State Department files from a government computer system. If he did so, they believe they could charge him as a conspirator in the leak, not just as a passive recipient of the documents who then published them.
….
Justice Department officials have declined to discuss any grand jury activity. But in interviews, people familiar with the case said the department appeared to be attracted to the possibility of prosecuting Mr. Assange as a co-conspirator to the leaking because it is under intense pressure to make an example of him as a deterrent to further mass leaking of electronic documents over the Internet.
Wouldn’t you like to see a little Monday Night Football, Private Manning? Or how about a pillow?
Prosecutors could overcome [a hearsay] hurdle if they obtain other evidence about any early contacts — especially if they could persuade Private Manning to testify against Mr. Assange. But two members of a support network set up to raise money for his legal defense, Jeff Paterson and David House, said Private Manning had declined to cooperate with investigators since his arrest in May.
Maybe we could even allow you to spend two whole hours outside your cell. You received alot of help from Mr. Assange, didn’t you? In fact, wouldn’t you say that he encouraged you to leak information and showed you how best to do so? Indeed, he did it himself sometimes, didn’t he?
It’s good to hear that you love Big Brother, Private Manning.
Gee, Private Manning, we might be able to do something about the conditions of your confinement if you, you know, helped us out with this Mr. Assange problem we have, are you sure you don’t remember in more detail how much he helped you get those documents? We have some suggestions here on how he might have done that, be sure to use the underlined language in your response (if it seems a little stilted, we lifted it directly from the federal criminal code).
Federal prosecutors, seeking to build a case against the WikiLeaks leader Julian Assange for his role in a huge dissemination of classified government documents, are looking for evidence of any collusion in his early contacts with an Army intelligence analyst suspected of leaking the information.
Justice Department officials are trying to find out whether Mr. Assange encouraged or even helped the analyst, Pfc. Bradley Manning, to extract classified military and State Department files from a government computer system. If he did so, they believe they could charge him as a conspirator in the leak, not just as a passive recipient of the documents who then published them.
….
Justice Department officials have declined to discuss any grand jury activity. But in interviews, people familiar with the case said the department appeared to be attracted to the possibility of prosecuting Mr. Assange as a co-conspirator to the leaking because it is under intense pressure to make an example of him as a deterrent to further mass leaking of electronic documents over the Internet.
Wouldn’t you like to see a little Monday Night Football, Private Manning? Or how about a pillow?
Prosecutors could overcome [a hearsay] hurdle if they obtain other evidence about any early contacts — especially if they could persuade Private Manning to testify against Mr. Assange. But two members of a support network set up to raise money for his legal defense, Jeff Paterson and David House, said Private Manning had declined to cooperate with investigators since his arrest in May.
Maybe we could even allow you to spend two whole hours outside your cell. You received alot of help from Mr. Assange, didn’t you? In fact, wouldn’t you say that he encouraged you to leak information and showed you how best to do so? Indeed, he did it himself sometimes, didn’t he?
It’s good to hear that you love Big Brother, Private Manning.
Eric: The treatment of Bradley Manning is microcosmic of a broader trend that does not speak well for the degree of civilization in our society.
Sapient: It doesn’t seem to me, however, that Manning is being singled out for harsher treatment than anyone else who has disclosed government secrets to enemies.
Seems they agree.
Eric: The treatment of Bradley Manning is microcosmic of a broader trend that does not speak well for the degree of civilization in our society.
Sapient: It doesn’t seem to me, however, that Manning is being singled out for harsher treatment than anyone else who has disclosed government secrets to enemies.
Seems they agree.
This:
http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/12/15/til-its-gone/
This:
http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/12/15/til-its-gone/
It seems to me that Donald Johnson asked the relevant questions.
Sapient, on what grounds do you dispute these two claims:
1) Manning is being held in solitary confinement
2) Solitary confinement is inhumane
It seems to me that the factual accuracy of the article is sufficiently confirmed by this part of Glenn’s post:
I [Glenn Greenwald] was contacted by Lt. Villiard, who claims there is one factual inaccuracy in what I wrote: specifically, he claims that Manning is not restricted from accessing news or current events during the prescribed time he is permitted to watch television. That is squarely inconsistent with reports from those with first-hand knowledge of Manning’s detention, but it’s a fairly minor dispute in the scheme of things..
Glenn could be lying in part or entirely. I suspect, however, that he would not have written the above if he didn’t have an email which he could use to prove that Villiard said those things. And it seems reasonable to me that, using the logic of debate judging, Villiard’s statement that there was one factual inaccuracy meant that there was only one.
It seems to me that Donald Johnson asked the relevant questions.
Sapient, on what grounds do you dispute these two claims:
1) Manning is being held in solitary confinement
2) Solitary confinement is inhumane
It seems to me that the factual accuracy of the article is sufficiently confirmed by this part of Glenn’s post:
I [Glenn Greenwald] was contacted by Lt. Villiard, who claims there is one factual inaccuracy in what I wrote: specifically, he claims that Manning is not restricted from accessing news or current events during the prescribed time he is permitted to watch television. That is squarely inconsistent with reports from those with first-hand knowledge of Manning’s detention, but it’s a fairly minor dispute in the scheme of things..
Glenn could be lying in part or entirely. I suspect, however, that he would not have written the above if he didn’t have an email which he could use to prove that Villiard said those things. And it seems reasonable to me that, using the logic of debate judging, Villiard’s statement that there was one factual inaccuracy meant that there was only one.
Fixed!
Fixed!
Also this:
http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/12/14/mormon-socialism/
Also this:
http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/12/14/mormon-socialism/
Countme – America’s thirst for vengeance, punishment, and retribution has long outstripped its willingness to pay for justice.
Countme – America’s thirst for vengeance, punishment, and retribution has long outstripped its willingness to pay for justice.
I don’t know that this is the “new normal” – it’s pretty much the same old “normal”.
Yes, the second paragraph after the first you cited concedes this.
I don’t know that this is the “new normal” – it’s pretty much the same old “normal”.
Yes, the second paragraph after the first you cited concedes this.
Greenwald follows up on his post from yesterday in the context of citing the same NYTimes story I linked to above (and making the same point on why the gov’t might be treating Manning so harshly), and answers at least one of Sapient’s questions:
In The Huffington Post yesterday, Marcus Baram quoted Jeff Paterson, who runs Manning’s legal defense fund, as saying that Manning has been extremely upset by the conditions of his detention but had not gone public about them in deference to his attorney’s efforts to negotiate better treatment.
Greenwald follows up on his post from yesterday in the context of citing the same NYTimes story I linked to above (and making the same point on why the gov’t might be treating Manning so harshly), and answers at least one of Sapient’s questions:
In The Huffington Post yesterday, Marcus Baram quoted Jeff Paterson, who runs Manning’s legal defense fund, as saying that Manning has been extremely upset by the conditions of his detention but had not gone public about them in deference to his attorney’s efforts to negotiate better treatment.
Slarti, why “fixed?” I copied that from GG’s blog, and as far as I can tell it still says “those.”
Slarti, why “fixed?” I copied that from GG’s blog, and as far as I can tell it still says “those.”
Oh, because it implies that Villiard is not in a position to know. Which would be odd indeed, I think.
But to clarify: I wasn’t correcting you, I was correcting Greenwald.
Oh, because it implies that Villiard is not in a position to know. Which would be odd indeed, I think.
But to clarify: I wasn’t correcting you, I was correcting Greenwald.
Why would it be odd for a PR-type person not to have first hand knowledge of the detainee’s condition?
Why would it be odd for a PR-type person not to have first hand knowledge of the detainee’s condition?
Villiard is quoted as “a Quantico brig official”, which would seem to imply that he is in some way familiar with the brig & conditions therein at Quantico.
Villiard is quoted as “a Quantico brig official”, which would seem to imply that he is in some way familiar with the brig & conditions therein at Quantico.
I’m slightly surprised they haven’t arrested Manning’s family in order to put pressure on him. It’s standard US army practice.
I’m slightly surprised they haven’t arrested Manning’s family in order to put pressure on him. It’s standard US army practice.
Longer me:
and this:
seem to be mutually contradictory. Unless he’s saying that Villiard is contradicting himself.
Longer me:
and this:
seem to be mutually contradictory. Unless he’s saying that Villiard is contradicting himself.
Unless he means “others” instead of “those” in the bolded portion of the second excerpt.
Unless he means “others” instead of “those” in the bolded portion of the second excerpt.
Sure. That’s kind of what I suggested, upthread.
Sure. That’s kind of what I suggested, upthread.
I suck a little bit.
I suck a little bit.
Only a little, Eric. You’re at least one standard deviation under the mean, at suckiness.
Only a little, Eric. You’re at least one standard deviation under the mean, at suckiness.
Florid praise, I know.
Florid praise, I know.
I’ll take it
I’ll take it
With the quotes all bundled together, what it looks like now is Greenwald getting cute with the qualifiers depending on his rhetorical needs.
I don’t think that kind of expediency is new territory for him.
With the quotes all bundled together, what it looks like now is Greenwald getting cute with the qualifiers depending on his rhetorical needs.
I don’t think that kind of expediency is new territory for him.
Eric is basically using Manning as a poster child in order to allege some kind of Obama administration political prisoner policy.
What kind of poster child are the folks holding Manning using him as?
Solitary confinement (except for an hour a day – is that really solitary confinement?) may well be torture according to many psychologists, but courts have ruled that it is not cruel and unusual punishment.
The former President’s OLC stated that, in order to qualify as torture, purposefully inflicted pain had to reach a level associated with organ failure.
Sometimes the law is a whore.
Manning screwed with the big boys, so now they are screwing with him. His life is going to suck, in a very large way, from here on out.
It is, plainly and simply, wrong to subject people to treatment that is well known to make them go insane. No matter what they did.
Eric is basically using Manning as a poster child in order to allege some kind of Obama administration political prisoner policy.
What kind of poster child are the folks holding Manning using him as?
Solitary confinement (except for an hour a day – is that really solitary confinement?) may well be torture according to many psychologists, but courts have ruled that it is not cruel and unusual punishment.
The former President’s OLC stated that, in order to qualify as torture, purposefully inflicted pain had to reach a level associated with organ failure.
Sometimes the law is a whore.
Manning screwed with the big boys, so now they are screwing with him. His life is going to suck, in a very large way, from here on out.
It is, plainly and simply, wrong to subject people to treatment that is well known to make them go insane. No matter what they did.
It is, plainly and simply, wrong to subject people to treatment that is well known to make them go insane. No matter what they did.
If only responsible people in the U.S. were capable of understanding this and doing something about it, but alas:
In this country, in June of 2006, a bipartisan national task force, the Commission on Safety and Abuse in America’s Prisons, released its recommendations after a yearlong investigation. It called for ending long-term isolation of prisoners. Beyond about ten days, the report noted, practically no benefits can be found and the harm is clear—not just for inmates but for the public as well. Most prisoners in long-term isolation are returned to society, after all. And evidence from a number of studies has shown that supermax conditions—in which prisoners have virtually no social interactions and are given no programmatic support—make it highly likely that they will commit more crimes when they are released. Instead, the report said, we should follow the preventive approaches used in European countries.
The recommendations went nowhere, of course.
From the New Yorker article linked in Eric’s post, which notes toward the end:
In much the same way that a previous generation of Americans countenanced legalized segregation, ours has countenanced legalized torture. And there is no clearer manifestation of this than our routine use of solitary confinement—on our own people, in our own communities, in a supermax prison, for example, that is a thirty-minute drive from my door.
It is, plainly and simply, wrong to subject people to treatment that is well known to make them go insane. No matter what they did.
If only responsible people in the U.S. were capable of understanding this and doing something about it, but alas:
In this country, in June of 2006, a bipartisan national task force, the Commission on Safety and Abuse in America’s Prisons, released its recommendations after a yearlong investigation. It called for ending long-term isolation of prisoners. Beyond about ten days, the report noted, practically no benefits can be found and the harm is clear—not just for inmates but for the public as well. Most prisoners in long-term isolation are returned to society, after all. And evidence from a number of studies has shown that supermax conditions—in which prisoners have virtually no social interactions and are given no programmatic support—make it highly likely that they will commit more crimes when they are released. Instead, the report said, we should follow the preventive approaches used in European countries.
The recommendations went nowhere, of course.
From the New Yorker article linked in Eric’s post, which notes toward the end:
In much the same way that a previous generation of Americans countenanced legalized segregation, ours has countenanced legalized torture. And there is no clearer manifestation of this than our routine use of solitary confinement—on our own people, in our own communities, in a supermax prison, for example, that is a thirty-minute drive from my door.
@Slarti:
I [Glenn Greenwald] was contacted by Lt. Villiard, who claims there is one factual inaccuracy in what I wrote: specifically, he claims that Manning is not restricted from accessing news or current events during the prescribed time he is permitted to watch television. That is squarely inconsistent with reports from those with first-hand knowledge of Manning’s detention
Given my own familiarity with maximum custody arrangements in military prisons (with all above caveats I made above still applying), the statement is true but totally misleading, as I’ve never seen maximum custody prisoners having any time whatever prescribed for television access. However, different branches of service, different facilities, etc. will all lead to different SOPs. Take this as anecdata.
@Slarti:
I [Glenn Greenwald] was contacted by Lt. Villiard, who claims there is one factual inaccuracy in what I wrote: specifically, he claims that Manning is not restricted from accessing news or current events during the prescribed time he is permitted to watch television. That is squarely inconsistent with reports from those with first-hand knowledge of Manning’s detention
Given my own familiarity with maximum custody arrangements in military prisons (with all above caveats I made above still applying), the statement is true but totally misleading, as I’ve never seen maximum custody prisoners having any time whatever prescribed for television access. However, different branches of service, different facilities, etc. will all lead to different SOPs. Take this as anecdata.
Does anybody know what the UCMJ has to say about this? Does it say anything different about the detention of individuals suspected of espionage or offenses where secret information is distributed?
The UCMJ says exactly nothing about this. Nada. That’s beyond its scope. Such matters are left to service and DoD regulations governing the running and management of military corrections facilities; e.g., AR 190-47 for the Army.
Well, you could say the UCMJ has something to say about it, but only generally:
Does anybody know what the UCMJ has to say about this? Does it say anything different about the detention of individuals suspected of espionage or offenses where secret information is distributed?
The UCMJ says exactly nothing about this. Nada. That’s beyond its scope. Such matters are left to service and DoD regulations governing the running and management of military corrections facilities; e.g., AR 190-47 for the Army.
Well, you could say the UCMJ has something to say about it, but only generally:
russell: “What kind of poster child are the folks holding Manning using him as?”
The kind that says that “if you’ve been entrusted with the confidences of the United States, you’re going to be in serious trouble if you betray that trust.”
It’s true, his life is going to suck. I feel bad for him. I wish he hadn’t done what he did. I wish prisons weren’t as horrible as they are – the penal system is gruesome, and not just for those in solitary. It badly needs to be reformed. I’m sorry for Manning in the same way that I feel sorry for anyone who ruins his own life, and I hope his lawyer does a good job for him, and that he doesn’t spend the rest of his life in prison. People should be furious at Assange for encouraging this kid to do what he did (if that’s what’s happened). Instead, they’re applauding him.
And, russell, just for the record, I don’t agree with former President Bush’s OLC. Most lawyers and legal scholars don’t either, so I wouldn’t say that the OLC opinion was “the law” or that their opinion was an example of “Sometimes the law is a whore.” I do believe generally in our system of laws. If we have laws we don’t like, we need to work to change them for everyone, not just Manning.
russell: “What kind of poster child are the folks holding Manning using him as?”
The kind that says that “if you’ve been entrusted with the confidences of the United States, you’re going to be in serious trouble if you betray that trust.”
It’s true, his life is going to suck. I feel bad for him. I wish he hadn’t done what he did. I wish prisons weren’t as horrible as they are – the penal system is gruesome, and not just for those in solitary. It badly needs to be reformed. I’m sorry for Manning in the same way that I feel sorry for anyone who ruins his own life, and I hope his lawyer does a good job for him, and that he doesn’t spend the rest of his life in prison. People should be furious at Assange for encouraging this kid to do what he did (if that’s what’s happened). Instead, they’re applauding him.
And, russell, just for the record, I don’t agree with former President Bush’s OLC. Most lawyers and legal scholars don’t either, so I wouldn’t say that the OLC opinion was “the law” or that their opinion was an example of “Sometimes the law is a whore.” I do believe generally in our system of laws. If we have laws we don’t like, we need to work to change them for everyone, not just Manning.
@sapient:
Well, if I were in the army, and entrusted with government secrets, then I sent all of the information that I could get hold of to someone who was going to publish it all over the Internet, would I expect that the government would, after apprehending me, let me blab all of that confidential information to my fellow inmates?
Right. ‘Cause someone guilty of indiscriminately leaking truly massive amounts of electronic data has enough juicy bits of it memorized that he can rattle it off to fellow pre-trials w/o references, long after having his access to government information systems revoked. Uh-huh.
Thin reed is thin.
@sapient:
Well, if I were in the army, and entrusted with government secrets, then I sent all of the information that I could get hold of to someone who was going to publish it all over the Internet, would I expect that the government would, after apprehending me, let me blab all of that confidential information to my fellow inmates?
Right. ‘Cause someone guilty of indiscriminately leaking truly massive amounts of electronic data has enough juicy bits of it memorized that he can rattle it off to fellow pre-trials w/o references, long after having his access to government information systems revoked. Uh-huh.
Thin reed is thin.
“‘Cause someone guilty of indiscriminately leaking truly massive amounts of electronic data has enough juicy bits of it memorized that he can rattle it off to fellow pre-trials w/o references, long after having his access to government information systems revoked.”
He had access to the information before he started dumping the files – who knows what he knew? All we can be pretty sure of is that he’s willing to let everybody know whatever it is he knows. Of course, we don’t really know the reasons for the conditions of his pre-trial detention (even though there was probably an adjudicatory hearing of some sort). Greenwald didn’t fill us in on that, and Manning’s attorney isn’t talking.
“‘Cause someone guilty of indiscriminately leaking truly massive amounts of electronic data has enough juicy bits of it memorized that he can rattle it off to fellow pre-trials w/o references, long after having his access to government information systems revoked.”
He had access to the information before he started dumping the files – who knows what he knew? All we can be pretty sure of is that he’s willing to let everybody know whatever it is he knows. Of course, we don’t really know the reasons for the conditions of his pre-trial detention (even though there was probably an adjudicatory hearing of some sort). Greenwald didn’t fill us in on that, and Manning’s attorney isn’t talking.
sapient: The kind that says that “if you’ve been entrusted with the confidences of the United States, you’re going to be in serious trouble if you betray that trust.”
But being in a military jail awaiting trial for something that is going to get you locked up for a long time is not in itself enough?
He has to also be denied a sheet and pillow?
Trial first, punishment later. It’s pretty simple.
sapient: The kind that says that “if you’ve been entrusted with the confidences of the United States, you’re going to be in serious trouble if you betray that trust.”
But being in a military jail awaiting trial for something that is going to get you locked up for a long time is not in itself enough?
He has to also be denied a sheet and pillow?
Trial first, punishment later. It’s pretty simple.
“Trial first, punishment later. It’s pretty simple.”
Agreed. They should be giving him a sheet and pillow, and generally treating him well while he’s in custody, even if his solitary confinement is justified.
I don’t think the deprivation of the sheet and pillow (if it occurred) was part of their attempt to make him a poster child though. I agree with Ugh’s evaluation – they’re trying to get him to cooperate in their investigation of Assange. Maltreatment is the wrong way to do it, and that’s why I hope his lawyer is doing his job.
“Trial first, punishment later. It’s pretty simple.”
Agreed. They should be giving him a sheet and pillow, and generally treating him well while he’s in custody, even if his solitary confinement is justified.
I don’t think the deprivation of the sheet and pillow (if it occurred) was part of their attempt to make him a poster child though. I agree with Ugh’s evaluation – they’re trying to get him to cooperate in their investigation of Assange. Maltreatment is the wrong way to do it, and that’s why I hope his lawyer is doing his job.
I wish prisons weren’t as horrible as they are – the penal system is gruesome
Yes, it is.
just for the record, I don’t agree with former President Bush’s OLC. Most lawyers and legal scholars don’t either, so I wouldn’t say that the OLC opinion was “the law” or that their opinion was an example of “Sometimes the law is a whore.”
Whether you agree or don’t agree, and whether “most lawyers and legal scholars” agree or disagree, we tortured people to death and used the OLC findings to justify it. And nobody’s gone to jail for it yet. F***ing John Yoo teaches ConLaw at Berklee.
So, yeah, sometimes the law is a whore.
Read the Eighth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States and explain to me how deliberately subjecting people to treatment that is known to make them insane complies with it.
I don’t really care what Manning did, it’s not about Manning. It’s about the rest of us.
I wish prisons weren’t as horrible as they are – the penal system is gruesome
Yes, it is.
just for the record, I don’t agree with former President Bush’s OLC. Most lawyers and legal scholars don’t either, so I wouldn’t say that the OLC opinion was “the law” or that their opinion was an example of “Sometimes the law is a whore.”
Whether you agree or don’t agree, and whether “most lawyers and legal scholars” agree or disagree, we tortured people to death and used the OLC findings to justify it. And nobody’s gone to jail for it yet. F***ing John Yoo teaches ConLaw at Berklee.
So, yeah, sometimes the law is a whore.
Read the Eighth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States and explain to me how deliberately subjecting people to treatment that is known to make them insane complies with it.
I don’t really care what Manning did, it’s not about Manning. It’s about the rest of us.
I wouldn’t say that the OLC opinion was “the law”
No, it only had the force of law.
I wouldn’t say that the OLC opinion was “the law”
No, it only had the force of law.
John Yoo teaches ConLaw at Berklee.
Sorry, at Berkeley.
At Berklee, he teaches tenor saxophone and ear training.
John Yoo teaches ConLaw at Berklee.
Sorry, at Berkeley.
At Berklee, he teaches tenor saxophone and ear training.
“No, it [the OLC opinion] only had the force of law.”
No, actually, it didn’t. What the Bush administration did was against the law and should have been prosecuted. And russell’s right, people should have gone to jail for it. And Scooter Libby should be in jail. And a whole lot of bankers. You won’t get any argument from me that those people shouldn’t be in jail. But it’s not because what Yoo said had the force of law, because it didn’t.
“No, it [the OLC opinion] only had the force of law.”
No, actually, it didn’t. What the Bush administration did was against the law and should have been prosecuted. And russell’s right, people should have gone to jail for it. And Scooter Libby should be in jail. And a whole lot of bankers. You won’t get any argument from me that those people shouldn’t be in jail. But it’s not because what Yoo said had the force of law, because it didn’t.
I were in the army, and entrusted with government secrets, then I sent all of the information that I could get hold of to someone who was going to publish it all over the Internet, would I expect that the government would, after apprehending me, let me blab all of that confidential information to my fellow inmates?
sapient, you belie your name. You’re saying that, now he’s put “all the information he could get hold of” on the Internet, where anyone could see it, what we should really be worried about is that he’ll also tell some of it to his cellmate?
How can you even think that makes sense?
I were in the army, and entrusted with government secrets, then I sent all of the information that I could get hold of to someone who was going to publish it all over the Internet, would I expect that the government would, after apprehending me, let me blab all of that confidential information to my fellow inmates?
sapient, you belie your name. You’re saying that, now he’s put “all the information he could get hold of” on the Internet, where anyone could see it, what we should really be worried about is that he’ll also tell some of it to his cellmate?
How can you even think that makes sense?
Whether you agree or don’t agree, and whether “most lawyers and legal scholars” agree or disagree, we tortured people to death and used the OLC findings to justify it. And nobody’s gone to jail for it yet. F***ing John Yoo teaches ConLaw at Berklee.
There’s a weird dynamic at work there that wouldn’t be permitted in any other circumstance. Let’s say a mob boss goes to his lawyer and says “Id really like to shoot John Smith. Maybe if I were to walk up to him and he were to turn around really quick, maybe that could be perceived as a lethal threat, right? He’s a big guy.”
Lawyer:”Uh, yeah, sure, I guess it could be, legally.”
Mob boss goes and shoots Smith when Smith turns around, and goes free because- after all, he trusted the advice of his lawyer, right? And the lawyer- well, he just had an opinion, right?
Maybe the next guy gets a law degree, and then he can do anything, unmolested by the legal system- “Well, I decided that, in my legal opinion, I had to snort that coke in self-defense, your honor!”
Or, novel idea, we could try locking up criminals rather than practicing our sophistry…
Whether you agree or don’t agree, and whether “most lawyers and legal scholars” agree or disagree, we tortured people to death and used the OLC findings to justify it. And nobody’s gone to jail for it yet. F***ing John Yoo teaches ConLaw at Berklee.
There’s a weird dynamic at work there that wouldn’t be permitted in any other circumstance. Let’s say a mob boss goes to his lawyer and says “Id really like to shoot John Smith. Maybe if I were to walk up to him and he were to turn around really quick, maybe that could be perceived as a lethal threat, right? He’s a big guy.”
Lawyer:”Uh, yeah, sure, I guess it could be, legally.”
Mob boss goes and shoots Smith when Smith turns around, and goes free because- after all, he trusted the advice of his lawyer, right? And the lawyer- well, he just had an opinion, right?
Maybe the next guy gets a law degree, and then he can do anything, unmolested by the legal system- “Well, I decided that, in my legal opinion, I had to snort that coke in self-defense, your honor!”
Or, novel idea, we could try locking up criminals rather than practicing our sophistry…
ajay, all the information isn’t up on the Internet, from what I’ve read, but I’m not going to go search for a news article about it. You can find it if you care about doing so.
Carleton Wu, I couldn’t agree more. Yoo’s opinion shouldn’t have shielded anyone. The way it’s supposed to work is that the crooks go to jail and the lawyer is sued for malpractice. So I’m with you all the way here.
ajay, all the information isn’t up on the Internet, from what I’ve read, but I’m not going to go search for a news article about it. You can find it if you care about doing so.
Carleton Wu, I couldn’t agree more. Yoo’s opinion shouldn’t have shielded anyone. The way it’s supposed to work is that the crooks go to jail and the lawyer is sued for malpractice. So I’m with you all the way here.
Sapient, what do you mean when you say that the OLC ruling did not have force of law? How are you defining “force of law?”
Sapient, what do you mean when you say that the OLC ruling did not have force of law? How are you defining “force of law?”
ajay, all the information isn’t up on the Internet, from what I’ve read, but I’m not going to go search for a news article about it. You can find it if you care about doing so.
Ouch. Just… ouch. Seriously, you’re doing contortions at this point to try to present this as not only an understandable approach, but a laudable one that precludes others. The man is accused of collating massive amounts of classified data and indiscriminately leaking it. As in, not picking and choosing only important stuff, but dumping… how did you put it? “[A]ll the information [he] could get hold of”? This is a thin, thin reed.
You might as well argue that he needs isolated from other pre-trials since some of them almost certainly had security clearances too (Secret clearances being very common in the Army these days), so who knows what this known – er, accused – leaker of secrets might learn and leak again!
Thin reed.
ajay, all the information isn’t up on the Internet, from what I’ve read, but I’m not going to go search for a news article about it. You can find it if you care about doing so.
Ouch. Just… ouch. Seriously, you’re doing contortions at this point to try to present this as not only an understandable approach, but a laudable one that precludes others. The man is accused of collating massive amounts of classified data and indiscriminately leaking it. As in, not picking and choosing only important stuff, but dumping… how did you put it? “[A]ll the information [he] could get hold of”? This is a thin, thin reed.
You might as well argue that he needs isolated from other pre-trials since some of them almost certainly had security clearances too (Secret clearances being very common in the Army these days), so who knows what this known – er, accused – leaker of secrets might learn and leak again!
Thin reed.
I hope sapient’s generous offer of a sheet and a pillow in solitary doesn’t discourage Manning from a plea bargain.
I hope sapient’s generous offer of a sheet and a pillow in solitary doesn’t discourage Manning from a plea bargain.
Glenn has an update on Manning–his lawyer has described the situation, which is pretty close to what Glenn said (except that Manning has more TV time than Glenn was told).
It all sounds cruel in a soul-sapping petty kind of way–Manning isn’t even allowed to do pushups or other forms of exercise in his cell and when he gets his one hour outside the cell he’s only allowed to walk.
link
Glenn has an update on Manning–his lawyer has described the situation, which is pretty close to what Glenn said (except that Manning has more TV time than Glenn was told).
It all sounds cruel in a soul-sapping petty kind of way–Manning isn’t even allowed to do pushups or other forms of exercise in his cell and when he gets his one hour outside the cell he’s only allowed to walk.
link
I wonder how you keep someone from doing pushups?
I wonder how you keep someone from doing pushups?
“I wonder how you keep someone from doing pushups?”
They constantly watch him, apparently, and if he starts doing any form of exercise they come into his cell and make him stop. They also prevent him from taking naps during the day. It’s just amazingly petty and small-minded, but I could see where treatment like that could make someone go nuts if extended over a prolonged period.
“I wonder how you keep someone from doing pushups?”
They constantly watch him, apparently, and if he starts doing any form of exercise they come into his cell and make him stop. They also prevent him from taking naps during the day. It’s just amazingly petty and small-minded, but I could see where treatment like that could make someone go nuts if extended over a prolonged period.
Below is the link to Manning’s army lawyer who wrote a post today describing the conditions under which Manning is confined–
link
Below is the link to Manning’s army lawyer who wrote a post today describing the conditions under which Manning is confined–
link
Can’t they just put his head in a vise until his eye pops out if he won’t tell them what they want to know?
Can’t they just put his head in a vise until his eye pops out if he won’t tell them what they want to know?
That’s ridiculous. I can see that they might want to suicide-watch the guy, but death by pushups just isn’t one of the top 5,000 ways to kill yourself in a prison cell.
That’s ridiculous. I can see that they might want to suicide-watch the guy, but death by pushups just isn’t one of the top 5,000 ways to kill yourself in a prison cell.
Apparently, Manning’s mattress has a built-in pillow, something Greenwald forgot to mention. And he has blankets. And he can watch TV and read books and magazines. And he gets to see visitors for 3 hours per day on weekends. And he gets to write letters to people and receive them. Still not fun but not similar to the psychosis inducing conditions described by Atul Gawande in the New Yorker, rather more like the “lifeline” conditions later provided to the prisoner named Robert Felton in that article.
Apparently, Manning’s mattress has a built-in pillow, something Greenwald forgot to mention. And he has blankets. And he can watch TV and read books and magazines. And he gets to see visitors for 3 hours per day on weekends. And he gets to write letters to people and receive them. Still not fun but not similar to the psychosis inducing conditions described by Atul Gawande in the New Yorker, rather more like the “lifeline” conditions later provided to the prisoner named Robert Felton in that article.
The link supporting my above comment was found at John Cole’s site.
The link supporting my above comment was found at John Cole’s site.
That link was also at Glenn’s site and I provided both the link to GG and to his lawyer. The built-in pillow is a recent addition. Glenn mentioned TV. Apparently, then, you don’t think that living under those conditions is particularly inhumane. That’s nice.
That link was also at Glenn’s site and I provided both the link to GG and to his lawyer. The built-in pillow is a recent addition. Glenn mentioned TV. Apparently, then, you don’t think that living under those conditions is particularly inhumane. That’s nice.
Donald, I was posting shortly after you did, and hadn’t read your comments. Sorry for duplicating the link.
As I’ve mentioned before, I think the American prison system is generally inhumane. Plus, there are way too many people incarcerated. I don’t know that much about military prisons other than what I’ve been reading lately, but having had many friends and family in the service, I’ve long been aware that the people who (now voluntarily) join the military give up their rights to a very substantial degree. This is why when anyone has ever sought my advice about joining, I’ve suggested that they try to find a different way to serve their country.
As I’ve said previously, Manning is barely an adult, and I feel sorry for people (especially young people) who do stupid things to ruin their lives. But when a military person is entrusted with secrets of the United States, and betrays that trust in as huge a way as Manning allegedly did, it is serious. He has a chance to meet with his lawyer and other visitors, he can read, he has access to tv entertainment for part of the day. Is it humane? I don’t think prison is particularly humane. The army generally seems like an inhumane existence to me, but many people choose it.
The prevention of injury watch is apparently being contested by his lawyer, and that’s good: “The command is basing this treatment of him solely on the nature of the pending charges, and on an unrelated incident where a service member in the facility took his own life,” Coombs [his lawyer] said, referencing the February suicide of a marine captain in the Quantico brig. Coombs says he believes Quantico officials are keeping Manning under close watch with strict limitations on his activity out of an overabundance of caution. Both Coombs and Manning’s psychologist, Coombs says, are sure Manning is mentally healthy, that there is no evidence he’s a threat to himself, and shouldn’t be held in such severe conditions under the artifice of his own protection.”
So his attorney is contesting the POI watch, and that’s a good thing. Meanwhile, his own attorney has stated that he is “mentally healthy” so, although he’s not having any fun (unless he’s having a chance to read some really good books), he’s not lost his mind.
Donald, I was posting shortly after you did, and hadn’t read your comments. Sorry for duplicating the link.
As I’ve mentioned before, I think the American prison system is generally inhumane. Plus, there are way too many people incarcerated. I don’t know that much about military prisons other than what I’ve been reading lately, but having had many friends and family in the service, I’ve long been aware that the people who (now voluntarily) join the military give up their rights to a very substantial degree. This is why when anyone has ever sought my advice about joining, I’ve suggested that they try to find a different way to serve their country.
As I’ve said previously, Manning is barely an adult, and I feel sorry for people (especially young people) who do stupid things to ruin their lives. But when a military person is entrusted with secrets of the United States, and betrays that trust in as huge a way as Manning allegedly did, it is serious. He has a chance to meet with his lawyer and other visitors, he can read, he has access to tv entertainment for part of the day. Is it humane? I don’t think prison is particularly humane. The army generally seems like an inhumane existence to me, but many people choose it.
The prevention of injury watch is apparently being contested by his lawyer, and that’s good: “The command is basing this treatment of him solely on the nature of the pending charges, and on an unrelated incident where a service member in the facility took his own life,” Coombs [his lawyer] said, referencing the February suicide of a marine captain in the Quantico brig. Coombs says he believes Quantico officials are keeping Manning under close watch with strict limitations on his activity out of an overabundance of caution. Both Coombs and Manning’s psychologist, Coombs says, are sure Manning is mentally healthy, that there is no evidence he’s a threat to himself, and shouldn’t be held in such severe conditions under the artifice of his own protection.”
So his attorney is contesting the POI watch, and that’s a good thing. Meanwhile, his own attorney has stated that he is “mentally healthy” so, although he’s not having any fun (unless he’s having a chance to read some really good books), he’s not lost his mind.
Coombs says he believes Quantico officials are keeping Manning under close watch with strict limitations on his activity out of an overabundance of caution.
And you actually believe this?
How silly. They’re trying to break the guy.
You may think it is right or wrong to try to break the guy, but at least be honest about what is going on. They’re trying to break the guy.
Coombs says he believes Quantico officials are keeping Manning under close watch with strict limitations on his activity out of an overabundance of caution.
And you actually believe this?
How silly. They’re trying to break the guy.
You may think it is right or wrong to try to break the guy, but at least be honest about what is going on. They’re trying to break the guy.
julian, just now saw your comment re: force of law, where you asked:
“Sapient, what do you mean when you say that the OLC ruling did not have force of law? How are you defining “force of law?”
“Force of law” is an expression used in law to mean that something would be legally binding (could be enforced), and that a court would recognize it as such. For example, a statute has the force of law – a judge and an executive officer has to honor it. A judge’s ruling or order has the force of law – a sheriff can execute on it. An appellate court holding has the force of law – a lower court has to follow it, and other courts have to respect it as precedent. An attorney general’s opinion is advisory and does NOT have the force of law – it is something worth strong consideration, but it does not have to be followed. Same with the advisory opinion of a court. Same with dictum in a judicial opinion (Dictum is the part of a judge’s opinion that isn’t necessary to decide the case.)
If there were ever a trial of the torturers, the OLC opinion might be used by the defendants to try to persuade the judge that they weren’t culpable. But it is pretty well settled that “ignorance of the law is no excuse” for a crime, even if you’ve gotten bad advice from an attorney. It might mitigate punishment, in that a judge might be persuaded that the defendant was acting under a good faith belief about the law, but it wouldn’t absolve the crime. And, as in the example about the mafia, such a defense could easily be used by corrupt people all the time, and judges aren’t that stupid. (Which is not to say that say that if a Republican judge were deciding a case about Republican political people, the judge wouldn’t rule based on political bias – but that’s a problem with politicalization of the courts – not the concept of “force of law”.)
julian, just now saw your comment re: force of law, where you asked:
“Sapient, what do you mean when you say that the OLC ruling did not have force of law? How are you defining “force of law?”
“Force of law” is an expression used in law to mean that something would be legally binding (could be enforced), and that a court would recognize it as such. For example, a statute has the force of law – a judge and an executive officer has to honor it. A judge’s ruling or order has the force of law – a sheriff can execute on it. An appellate court holding has the force of law – a lower court has to follow it, and other courts have to respect it as precedent. An attorney general’s opinion is advisory and does NOT have the force of law – it is something worth strong consideration, but it does not have to be followed. Same with the advisory opinion of a court. Same with dictum in a judicial opinion (Dictum is the part of a judge’s opinion that isn’t necessary to decide the case.)
If there were ever a trial of the torturers, the OLC opinion might be used by the defendants to try to persuade the judge that they weren’t culpable. But it is pretty well settled that “ignorance of the law is no excuse” for a crime, even if you’ve gotten bad advice from an attorney. It might mitigate punishment, in that a judge might be persuaded that the defendant was acting under a good faith belief about the law, but it wouldn’t absolve the crime. And, as in the example about the mafia, such a defense could easily be used by corrupt people all the time, and judges aren’t that stupid. (Which is not to say that say that if a Republican judge were deciding a case about Republican political people, the judge wouldn’t rule based on political bias – but that’s a problem with politicalization of the courts – not the concept of “force of law”.)
Duff Clarity, I don’t have any reason to believe that Manning’s lawyer would have any reason to lie. The people at Quantico have a plausible reason to do what they’re doing. However, as I said before, we know that they’re trying to get Manning to cooperate in their investigation of Assange. If they’re mistreating him in order to do that, I hope that stops. I also hope that Manning cooperates in exchange for favorable plea bargain so that the government gets the information it wants, and so that Manning can eventually have some kind of a decent life.
Duff Clarity, I don’t have any reason to believe that Manning’s lawyer would have any reason to lie. The people at Quantico have a plausible reason to do what they’re doing. However, as I said before, we know that they’re trying to get Manning to cooperate in their investigation of Assange. If they’re mistreating him in order to do that, I hope that stops. I also hope that Manning cooperates in exchange for favorable plea bargain so that the government gets the information it wants, and so that Manning can eventually have some kind of a decent life.
I also hope that Manning cooperates in exchange for favorable plea bargain so that the government gets the information it wants
How can that possibly make us, as citizens, better off?
Do you not care to know what your government is doing in your name with your money?
You’re responsible whether it is done in secret or in the clear.
I also hope that Manning cooperates in exchange for favorable plea bargain so that the government gets the information it wants
How can that possibly make us, as citizens, better off?
Do you not care to know what your government is doing in your name with your money?
You’re responsible whether it is done in secret or in the clear.
“Do you not care to know what your government is doing in your name with your money?”
I do know what the government is doing, just not every random bit of correspondence from every state department analyst who transmits a cable. Hell, I don’t know that amount of detail from my own organization. The fact is, most people in most professions need a certain sphere of confidential, candid discussion and correspondence so that they can accumulate working knowledge about particular issues. When the government is sending rumors and observations around to its own personnel, to be verified later, or to be considered in negotiations, these don’t need to be made public, just as notes by journalists don’t need to be made public. As I’ve said before, it’s different if someone is truly whistleblowing – pointing out illegal behavior, such as the video of the murdered Reuters reporters. But no – not what Manning did.
I disagree that we live in a police state just because there’s confidentiality in the State Department. The loose security that allowed those documents to be released represents a general atmosphere of comfortable confidentiality, where abuses are fairly easy to uncover and disclose, but where state department officials are accorded a certain degree of trust by third parties. That’s a good balance, and keep things functional. The foreign policy mistakes and disasters of our recent history didn’t occur because of secrecy; they occurred because citizens of our country didn’t care enough to stop what was very obviously going on.
“Do you not care to know what your government is doing in your name with your money?”
I do know what the government is doing, just not every random bit of correspondence from every state department analyst who transmits a cable. Hell, I don’t know that amount of detail from my own organization. The fact is, most people in most professions need a certain sphere of confidential, candid discussion and correspondence so that they can accumulate working knowledge about particular issues. When the government is sending rumors and observations around to its own personnel, to be verified later, or to be considered in negotiations, these don’t need to be made public, just as notes by journalists don’t need to be made public. As I’ve said before, it’s different if someone is truly whistleblowing – pointing out illegal behavior, such as the video of the murdered Reuters reporters. But no – not what Manning did.
I disagree that we live in a police state just because there’s confidentiality in the State Department. The loose security that allowed those documents to be released represents a general atmosphere of comfortable confidentiality, where abuses are fairly easy to uncover and disclose, but where state department officials are accorded a certain degree of trust by third parties. That’s a good balance, and keep things functional. The foreign policy mistakes and disasters of our recent history didn’t occur because of secrecy; they occurred because citizens of our country didn’t care enough to stop what was very obviously going on.
I also hope that Manning cooperates in exchange for favorable plea bargain so that the government gets the information it wants
I guess I’m unclear on exactly what kind of information the government might want from Manning.
As I understand it, he walked up to a secure computer, put a CD into it, burned a bunch of docs on the CD, and walked away. He then gave the CD with the docs to Assange.
Assange, of course, is a public figure, and Wikileaks is a widely known website. No secretive cabal involved.
Is there more to know?
I also hope that Manning cooperates in exchange for favorable plea bargain so that the government gets the information it wants
I guess I’m unclear on exactly what kind of information the government might want from Manning.
As I understand it, he walked up to a secure computer, put a CD into it, burned a bunch of docs on the CD, and walked away. He then gave the CD with the docs to Assange.
Assange, of course, is a public figure, and Wikileaks is a widely known website. No secretive cabal involved.
Is there more to know?
Yes, russell. It’s whether Assange induced him, paid him, whatever, to do that. That would make Assange a conspirator.
Yes, russell. It’s whether Assange induced him, paid him, whatever, to do that. That would make Assange a conspirator.
I do know what the government is doing, just not every random bit of correspondence from every state department analyst who transmits a cable. Hell, I don’t know that amount of detail from my own organization. The fact is, most people in most professions need a certain sphere of confidential, candid discussion and correspondence so that they can accumulate working knowledge about particular issues
Random bits of correspondence like the fact the US military has begun fighting a ground war in Pakistan without this ever having been debated by the American people or their representatives, and after being told by their government that “there are no American troops in Pakistan”?
Random trivial unimportant bits of correspondence like that?
That’s what you think should be kept from the public that is paying for it and responsible for it?
I do know what the government is doing, just not every random bit of correspondence from every state department analyst who transmits a cable. Hell, I don’t know that amount of detail from my own organization. The fact is, most people in most professions need a certain sphere of confidential, candid discussion and correspondence so that they can accumulate working knowledge about particular issues
Random bits of correspondence like the fact the US military has begun fighting a ground war in Pakistan without this ever having been debated by the American people or their representatives, and after being told by their government that “there are no American troops in Pakistan”?
Random trivial unimportant bits of correspondence like that?
That’s what you think should be kept from the public that is paying for it and responsible for it?
That soldiers were in Pakistan comes as news to you?
It didn’t come as news to me, except for maybe a year ago. Although with the broad Congressional authorization to “use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he [the President] determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons,” I’ve been assuming that military action in Pakistan and Yemen fell under this authorization.
The fact that this is a surprise to you is, frankly, a shock to me.
That soldiers were in Pakistan comes as news to you?
It didn’t come as news to me, except for maybe a year ago. Although with the broad Congressional authorization to “use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he [the President] determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons,” I’ve been assuming that military action in Pakistan and Yemen fell under this authorization.
The fact that this is a surprise to you is, frankly, a shock to me.
The fact that this is a surprise to you is, frankly, a shock to me.
Here’s what the US Special Envoy to Pakistan told the press last December: “there are no American troops in Pakistan”.
We now know that he was lying and that the claim in your link, that we were “currently training Pakistani soldiers in counterinsurgency tactics” was also a lie and that there were troops on the ground directly involved in combat operations at a time when the government was claiming that there were not troops on the ground directly involved in combat operations.
When the Nation, last fall, published an article claiming there were US forces fighting on the ground in Pakistan here is how the government responded:
He was also lying.
Is it shocking to me? Of course not. But it is also not an example of “confidential, candid discussion and correspondence so that they can accumulate working knowledge about particular issues”. It is an example of the government lying to its citizens about its involvement in the wars it is fighting and it is an example of something that should be done after a public debate instead of in secret.
The fact that this is a surprise to you is, frankly, a shock to me.
Here’s what the US Special Envoy to Pakistan told the press last December: “there are no American troops in Pakistan”.
We now know that he was lying and that the claim in your link, that we were “currently training Pakistani soldiers in counterinsurgency tactics” was also a lie and that there were troops on the ground directly involved in combat operations at a time when the government was claiming that there were not troops on the ground directly involved in combat operations.
When the Nation, last fall, published an article claiming there were US forces fighting on the ground in Pakistan here is how the government responded:
He was also lying.
Is it shocking to me? Of course not. But it is also not an example of “confidential, candid discussion and correspondence so that they can accumulate working knowledge about particular issues”. It is an example of the government lying to its citizens about its involvement in the wars it is fighting and it is an example of something that should be done after a public debate instead of in secret.
WikiLeaks cable reveals secret pledge to protect US at Iraq inquiry
Awesome!
Open covenants of peace must be arrived at, after which there will surely be no private international action or rulings of any kind, but diplomacy shall proceed always frankly and in the public view.
Woodrow Wilson
Word!
WikiLeaks cable reveals secret pledge to protect US at Iraq inquiry
Awesome!
Open covenants of peace must be arrived at, after which there will surely be no private international action or rulings of any kind, but diplomacy shall proceed always frankly and in the public view.
Woodrow Wilson
Word!
At least this whole thing has given SOME lulz:
At least this whole thing has given SOME lulz:
“As I understand it, he walked up to a secure computer, put a CD into it, burned a bunch of docs on the CD, and walked away. He then gave the CD with the docs to Assange.”
According to the charges he gained access to documents which were well beyond his security authorization, and they want to know how he evaded the controls–which is where suspicion about Assange comes in.
“As I understand it, he walked up to a secure computer, put a CD into it, burned a bunch of docs on the CD, and walked away. He then gave the CD with the docs to Assange.”
According to the charges he gained access to documents which were well beyond his security authorization, and they want to know how he evaded the controls–which is where suspicion about Assange comes in.
So, what are you doing about it, Duff?
You’re entitled to cite random meaningless quotes from historical figures, novakant. None of the people you cite actually practiced what they preached.
Not sure what to make of this, Phil. That the cables aren’t truthful and are unreliable? And weren’t meant for publication? And “journalists” who rely on them are misguided? And that not every observation or rumor heard by a diplomatic analyst (and recorded for further assessment) is absolutely accurate? Shocker!!!! It’s called note taking.
So, what are you doing about it, Duff?
You’re entitled to cite random meaningless quotes from historical figures, novakant. None of the people you cite actually practiced what they preached.
Not sure what to make of this, Phil. That the cables aren’t truthful and are unreliable? And weren’t meant for publication? And “journalists” who rely on them are misguided? And that not every observation or rumor heard by a diplomatic analyst (and recorded for further assessment) is absolutely accurate? Shocker!!!! It’s called note taking.
novakant, you do know that Wilson secretly intervened in the Russian civil war, right? “Word”s are cheap.
novakant, you do know that Wilson secretly intervened in the Russian civil war, right? “Word”s are cheap.
I am aware of that, thanks – he was a politician, what do you expect? It’s just that this quote expresses my opinion on how diplomacy should be conducted. You on the other hand seem to be fine with the US government undermining a supposedly independent inquiry in an allied country and you also think that we as citizens shouldn’t know about such matters, so that diplomats can go about their business protecting “interests” in secret.
I am aware of that, thanks – he was a politician, what do you expect? It’s just that this quote expresses my opinion on how diplomacy should be conducted. You on the other hand seem to be fine with the US government undermining a supposedly independent inquiry in an allied country and you also think that we as citizens shouldn’t know about such matters, so that diplomats can go about their business protecting “interests” in secret.
Not sure what to make of this, Phil.
That it was funny, maybe? I mean, take a step back here. You’re about to implode from the stress of this, apparently.
Not sure what to make of this, Phil.
That it was funny, maybe? I mean, take a step back here. You’re about to implode from the stress of this, apparently.
novakant, if an allied country wants to conduct an independent inquiry, it should do so. It seems reasonable to me that one of the jobs of diplomats to try to intervene in foreign courts on behalf of their citizens – that doesn’t mean the courts have to consider those arguments.
Phil, deep breath taken. I’ve said all I need to say on the issue.
novakant, if an allied country wants to conduct an independent inquiry, it should do so. It seems reasonable to me that one of the jobs of diplomats to try to intervene in foreign courts on behalf of their citizens – that doesn’t mean the courts have to consider those arguments.
Phil, deep breath taken. I’ve said all I need to say on the issue.
It seems reasonable to me that one of the jobs of diplomats to try intervene in foreign courts on behalf of their citizens
Wow – so much for your respect for the rule of law and the truth. Btw, which citizens is such an intervention designed to protect? Citizens Bush and Cheney?
It seems reasonable to me that one of the jobs of diplomats to try intervene in foreign courts on behalf of their citizens
Wow – so much for your respect for the rule of law and the truth. Btw, which citizens is such an intervention designed to protect? Citizens Bush and Cheney?
“Not sure what to make of this, Phil. That the cables aren’t truthful and are unreliable?”
One thing to make of it is that the people who work for us sometimes lie even to each other for no justifiable purpose. Which is why it was good the cable got leaked. The fact that some journalists fell for the lie is their own fault, but the mainstream press has been spinning the leaks like mad, so it’s not too surprising–
link
“Not sure what to make of this, Phil. That the cables aren’t truthful and are unreliable?”
One thing to make of it is that the people who work for us sometimes lie even to each other for no justifiable purpose. Which is why it was good the cable got leaked. The fact that some journalists fell for the lie is their own fault, but the mainstream press has been spinning the leaks like mad, so it’s not too surprising–
link
sapient: Oh please. Doesn’t Manning have an attorney? Why doesn’t Greenwald mention him? Why are the blogs the spokespeople for Manning when, in fact, he has a lawyer: David E. Coombs. Why hasn’t Coombs complained about this – how about the fact that his mental health is being examined? Is this because his lawyer has asked for this?
Do we really have all of the facts here?
We have even more facts than we had when this was written, including quite a bit from David Coombs, and from another visitor to Manning. (see Greenwald’s latest).
I hope that sapient and each poster/reader/commenter in the ObWi orbit has a festive, peaceful, and enjoyable couple of weeks as many of us celebrate Christmas and we all head to a new year.
sapient: Oh please. Doesn’t Manning have an attorney? Why doesn’t Greenwald mention him? Why are the blogs the spokespeople for Manning when, in fact, he has a lawyer: David E. Coombs. Why hasn’t Coombs complained about this – how about the fact that his mental health is being examined? Is this because his lawyer has asked for this?
Do we really have all of the facts here?
We have even more facts than we had when this was written, including quite a bit from David Coombs, and from another visitor to Manning. (see Greenwald’s latest).
I hope that sapient and each poster/reader/commenter in the ObWi orbit has a festive, peaceful, and enjoyable couple of weeks as many of us celebrate Christmas and we all head to a new year.
Oh, dear. Another post from seven days ago I haven’t had time to read more than the post.
Will try to catch up on the comments when I can.
Theoretically, I’d love to find some time to write an actual post.
I don’t suppose anyone knows anyone in Oakland/Berkeley who can do incredibly simple carpentry, or simply, perhaps, banging a semi-broken drawer back into place? It’s taken four hours of my day just to try deal with that, and at this point, I don’t think there’s more I can do but put the broken drawer somewhere, and the contents somewhere else. Somewhere.
Meanwhile, Donald Johnson posted a link about Manning here, if anyone wishes to pick up the discussion without having to reread, or read, this entire thread.
Oh, dear. Another post from seven days ago I haven’t had time to read more than the post.
Will try to catch up on the comments when I can.
Theoretically, I’d love to find some time to write an actual post.
I don’t suppose anyone knows anyone in Oakland/Berkeley who can do incredibly simple carpentry, or simply, perhaps, banging a semi-broken drawer back into place? It’s taken four hours of my day just to try deal with that, and at this point, I don’t think there’s more I can do but put the broken drawer somewhere, and the contents somewhere else. Somewhere.
Meanwhile, Donald Johnson posted a link about Manning here, if anyone wishes to pick up the discussion without having to reread, or read, this entire thread.
Nell, great to see you in these parts. There’s an open thread over here if you’re interested.
Comments welcome anywhere and everywhere they’re still open, any time in that two week limit (last I looked; without the password or information from a co-blogger, I’m not sure; presumably Eric knows — I hope), of course.
Nell, great to see you in these parts. There’s an open thread over here if you’re interested.
Comments welcome anywhere and everywhere they’re still open, any time in that two week limit (last I looked; without the password or information from a co-blogger, I’m not sure; presumably Eric knows — I hope), of course.
Back at you, nell.
Back at you, nell.
Hob:
I have not observed this to be true. In my experience, blog commenters have lectured the world hundreds of millions of times.
Who listens is another question, but that’s a question as regards every lecture, statement, or communique.
Sapient:
Nobody ever has all the facts. The question is whether there are enough known to any individual to speak with some reasonable competence to a subject, and then whether there are enough interlocutors who share a commonality enough for conversation to be productive.
Sapient:
I’m quite sure someone knows. Who would you like to ask?
Whose conclusions about anything should we take as conclusive? What point are we defining in an going situation as having “concluded”?
Manning’s case obviously isn’t concluded, and neither was Glenn Greenwald the first or last person to write about him.
Countme–In:
goes here, to a discussion of Egger’s Zeitoun.
Sapient:
Who was the “you” you were addressing?
Duff Clarity:
Cite, please? Thanks!
Where, when, who? URL, please?
novakant:
What timetable do you suggest would be most practical for the world’s governments, or, say, just the U.S. government, to move to such practices?
Keeping in mind that we have federal elections every two years.
Phil:
Are you referring to this piece by Moore, Phil? What are you quoting from? There are over 281 sources for your quote. Which are you using?
novakant:
See previous query: timetable in mind as when and how your opinion should be implemented? Means?
Is this opinion that can be implemented? If so, what do you have in mind?
Or are you describing a nice fantasy you have? Or something that will happen, in your view, in fifty years or so? When? Which?
Thanks for any response!
Phil:
Seems doubtful, or I suspect we’ve had had reports. It would, I think, make the newspapers.
(That’s my dry humor, yes: not me being literal.)
Okay, caught up to the rest of the comments on this thread. Doesn’t seem to be anything substantive calling for further response; mostly seems to be variants of “is so” and “is not” and the usual personality conflicts.
Did I miss anything of substance via reading too quickly? Any particular comments? Anyone still asking something?
I read it all, but checking is often useful.
Hob:
I have not observed this to be true. In my experience, blog commenters have lectured the world hundreds of millions of times.
Who listens is another question, but that’s a question as regards every lecture, statement, or communique.
Sapient:
Nobody ever has all the facts. The question is whether there are enough known to any individual to speak with some reasonable competence to a subject, and then whether there are enough interlocutors who share a commonality enough for conversation to be productive.
Sapient:
I’m quite sure someone knows. Who would you like to ask?
Whose conclusions about anything should we take as conclusive? What point are we defining in an going situation as having “concluded”?
Manning’s case obviously isn’t concluded, and neither was Glenn Greenwald the first or last person to write about him.
Countme–In:
goes here, to a discussion of Egger’s Zeitoun.
Sapient:
Who was the “you” you were addressing?
Duff Clarity:
Cite, please? Thanks!
Where, when, who? URL, please?
novakant:
What timetable do you suggest would be most practical for the world’s governments, or, say, just the U.S. government, to move to such practices?
Keeping in mind that we have federal elections every two years.
Phil:
Are you referring to this piece by Moore, Phil? What are you quoting from? There are over 281 sources for your quote. Which are you using?
novakant:
See previous query: timetable in mind as when and how your opinion should be implemented? Means?
Is this opinion that can be implemented? If so, what do you have in mind?
Or are you describing a nice fantasy you have? Or something that will happen, in your view, in fifty years or so? When? Which?
Thanks for any response!
Phil:
Seems doubtful, or I suspect we’ve had had reports. It would, I think, make the newspapers.
(That’s my dry humor, yes: not me being literal.)
Okay, caught up to the rest of the comments on this thread. Doesn’t seem to be anything substantive calling for further response; mostly seems to be variants of “is so” and “is not” and the usual personality conflicts.
Did I miss anything of substance via reading too quickly? Any particular comments? Anyone still asking something?
I read it all, but checking is often useful.
This is directly relevant to the subject of the thread, and requires no response from anyone, but I wanted to get it in here before comments close.
In the course of googling to research who other than Glenn Greenwald made public note of Bradley Manning’s conditions of confinement, and when, I came across the Solitary Watch site, a development that I find heartening for more than one reason.
I encourage those interested in the subject, including those who share sapient’s take, to take advantage of the documentation the project provides (starting by reading the rest of the ‘About’ page).
This is directly relevant to the subject of the thread, and requires no response from anyone, but I wanted to get it in here before comments close.
In the course of googling to research who other than Glenn Greenwald made public note of Bradley Manning’s conditions of confinement, and when, I came across the Solitary Watch site, a development that I find heartening for more than one reason.
I encourage those interested in the subject, including those who share sapient’s take, to take advantage of the documentation the project provides (starting by reading the rest of the ‘About’ page).
This is directly relevant to the subject of the thread, and requires no response from anyone
Required or not, my response is “thanks Nell”.
Criminal justice in this country is FUBAR. It needs to change.
This is directly relevant to the subject of the thread, and requires no response from anyone
Required or not, my response is “thanks Nell”.
Criminal justice in this country is FUBAR. It needs to change.
I agree, Nell. And, by the way, my “take” has never been that I’m fine with the penal system, or that it doesn’t need serious reform. And I’m not a proponent of solitary confinement either. I just think that organizations which approach the problem systemically (such as Solitary Watch), are going about the problem in serious and credible way, whereas people who are caught up in the WikiLeaks controversy are conflating the issue with their larger goal of persuading people that Bradley Manning is Obama’ domestic political prisoner.
Solitary confinement is a means used by our penal system so that authorities can avoid thinking about more appropriate ways to deal with certain inmates: violent people (who might be a danger to others), people whose safety might be in jeopardy in a general prison population, people who choose it over the death penalty in exchange for a plea bargain, mentally ill people whose behavior is too challenging for prison officials to address thoughtfully, and others whose incarceration presents challenges. There are, no doubt, more humane and constructive ways to manage problems. Calling it “torture,” especially when there are attempts made to provide a detainee with daily visits, reading material, etc., is problematic to me. It cheapens a term that in our recent national dialogue has been denied to acts such as waterboarding and the other abuses that clearly have long fallen within its definition, acts that John Yoo was trying to excuse.
Regarding Manning: This is an article written in September, after Manning had been at Quantico for a month. The article quotes a relative as stating that “[Manning] said he was being treated well.” Obviously, several more months of those conditions could have changed his view on that, but it’s not my impression that his attorney is trying to hurry the procedures toward his court martial.
As I’ve said before when describing my “take”, I am not someone who would like to see Manning rot. But I do think that the crime he is alleged to have committed is serious, and not strictly “political.” I trust his attorney’s explanation of his case much more than I trust Glenn Greenwald’s.
I agree, Nell. And, by the way, my “take” has never been that I’m fine with the penal system, or that it doesn’t need serious reform. And I’m not a proponent of solitary confinement either. I just think that organizations which approach the problem systemically (such as Solitary Watch), are going about the problem in serious and credible way, whereas people who are caught up in the WikiLeaks controversy are conflating the issue with their larger goal of persuading people that Bradley Manning is Obama’ domestic political prisoner.
Solitary confinement is a means used by our penal system so that authorities can avoid thinking about more appropriate ways to deal with certain inmates: violent people (who might be a danger to others), people whose safety might be in jeopardy in a general prison population, people who choose it over the death penalty in exchange for a plea bargain, mentally ill people whose behavior is too challenging for prison officials to address thoughtfully, and others whose incarceration presents challenges. There are, no doubt, more humane and constructive ways to manage problems. Calling it “torture,” especially when there are attempts made to provide a detainee with daily visits, reading material, etc., is problematic to me. It cheapens a term that in our recent national dialogue has been denied to acts such as waterboarding and the other abuses that clearly have long fallen within its definition, acts that John Yoo was trying to excuse.
Regarding Manning: This is an article written in September, after Manning had been at Quantico for a month. The article quotes a relative as stating that “[Manning] said he was being treated well.” Obviously, several more months of those conditions could have changed his view on that, but it’s not my impression that his attorney is trying to hurry the procedures toward his court martial.
As I’ve said before when describing my “take”, I am not someone who would like to see Manning rot. But I do think that the crime he is alleged to have committed is serious, and not strictly “political.” I trust his attorney’s explanation of his case much more than I trust Glenn Greenwald’s.
But I do think that the crime he is alleged to have committed is serious, and not strictly “political.”
Again, I point you to Article 13. The seriousness of his crime is immaterial to the character of his pre-trial confinement. While he is in pre-trial status, only the good order and discipline of the facility can dictate more rigorous confinement than that required to ensure his presence… and I’m failing to see how maximum custody is needed for good order and discipline.
(For clarity’s sake, according to regs, there is no class of crime so severe that the nature of the crime alone dictates maximum custody.)
But I do think that the crime he is alleged to have committed is serious, and not strictly “political.”
Again, I point you to Article 13. The seriousness of his crime is immaterial to the character of his pre-trial confinement. While he is in pre-trial status, only the good order and discipline of the facility can dictate more rigorous confinement than that required to ensure his presence… and I’m failing to see how maximum custody is needed for good order and discipline.
(For clarity’s sake, according to regs, there is no class of crime so severe that the nature of the crime alone dictates maximum custody.)
I agree with you, envy. My point wasn’t that the seriousness of his crime justifies the current conditions of his confinement. My point was that I don’t think he’s a “political prisoner”. The September article I cited above states that he was in solitary confinement because he was under suicide watch. His lawyer’s web site has a recent post about challenging the conditions of his confinement, and the various steps involved. Judicial review of the basis of confinement can happen, but only after the referral of a case to a court-martial. Apparently, according to the November post about Manning’s case, they are waiting for everyone to obtain security clearances before an Article 32 hearing takes place.
This is what due process looks like in the military. Not pretty, but it’s grinding right along.
I agree with you, envy. My point wasn’t that the seriousness of his crime justifies the current conditions of his confinement. My point was that I don’t think he’s a “political prisoner”. The September article I cited above states that he was in solitary confinement because he was under suicide watch. His lawyer’s web site has a recent post about challenging the conditions of his confinement, and the various steps involved. Judicial review of the basis of confinement can happen, but only after the referral of a case to a court-martial. Apparently, according to the November post about Manning’s case, they are waiting for everyone to obtain security clearances before an Article 32 hearing takes place.
This is what due process looks like in the military. Not pretty, but it’s grinding right along.
Happy new year, sapient. I’m glad to know you saw my comment before the thread died.
Envy above makes a fundamental point about the irrelevancy of what crime he is accused of to the illegality of Manning’s treatment, though much of what is being done to him would be equally abusive if he had been convicted of a serious crime.
Calling it “torture,” especially when there are attempts made to provide a detainee with daily visits, reading material, etc., is problematic to me. It cheapens a term that in our recent national dialogue has been denied to acts such as waterboarding…
Try to leave how you feel about Glenn Greenwald and WikiLeaks out of it. Try to avoid minimizing and outright mischaracterizations of his situation (“daily visits”? not so much. “reading material”? Read his lawyer’s account of that and reflect on how much of Manning’s requests have likely been approved.)
Try, in short, to put yourself in Bradley Manning’s place. Re-read Hilzoy’s posts on solitary, cited by Eric in the original post.
The most chilling aspect of Manning’s illegal pre-trial punishment, the most clearly torturous, is the combination of isolation, control, and sleep deprivation over a very prolonged period. He is not allowed to exercise in his cell. He has to constantly respond to guards. He is being awakened frequently during the night. And this has been going on for at least five months (we know less about conditions of Manning’s two months of confinement at a base in Kuwait).
From his lawyer’s account at the link above:
PFC Manning is held in his cell for approximately 23 hours a day.
The guards are required to check on PFC Manning every five minutes by asking him if he is okay. PFC Manning is required to respond in some affirmative manner. At night, if the guards cannot see PFC Manning clearly, because he has a blanket over his head or is curled up towards the wall, they will wake him in order to ensure he is okay. [my emphasis]
This is torture. Waterboarding is torture, sleep deprivation is torture, and solitary confinement is torture. The fact that solitary confinement has surged to the point of becoming near-routine in U.S. prisons over the last 20 years, that close to a hundred thousand human beings are being subjected to it on any given day here, has not made it less torturous. What it has done is make some human rights advocates hesitate to focus on it because of the very scale of the problem in the “we-don’t-torture” United States of America.
That hesitation, finally, appears to have been overcome. A year ago the National Religious Coalition Against Torture has made ending prison torture, in particular solitary confinement, a specific part of its efforts. The Solitary Watch project began. This past December 10, international human rights day, was the occasion of a significant statement on isolation as torture, part of an international effort to refocus attention on it.
The authorities at the Quantico brig are using an unjustified and prolonged Prevention of Injury order to subject Bradley Manning to sleep deprivation, isolation, and extreme control/observation. [None of us know who authorized this or why, but it is consistent with known U.S. practice for this to be “softening him up for interrogation.”]
Happy new year, sapient. I’m glad to know you saw my comment before the thread died.
Envy above makes a fundamental point about the irrelevancy of what crime he is accused of to the illegality of Manning’s treatment, though much of what is being done to him would be equally abusive if he had been convicted of a serious crime.
Calling it “torture,” especially when there are attempts made to provide a detainee with daily visits, reading material, etc., is problematic to me. It cheapens a term that in our recent national dialogue has been denied to acts such as waterboarding…
Try to leave how you feel about Glenn Greenwald and WikiLeaks out of it. Try to avoid minimizing and outright mischaracterizations of his situation (“daily visits”? not so much. “reading material”? Read his lawyer’s account of that and reflect on how much of Manning’s requests have likely been approved.)
Try, in short, to put yourself in Bradley Manning’s place. Re-read Hilzoy’s posts on solitary, cited by Eric in the original post.
The most chilling aspect of Manning’s illegal pre-trial punishment, the most clearly torturous, is the combination of isolation, control, and sleep deprivation over a very prolonged period. He is not allowed to exercise in his cell. He has to constantly respond to guards. He is being awakened frequently during the night. And this has been going on for at least five months (we know less about conditions of Manning’s two months of confinement at a base in Kuwait).
From his lawyer’s account at the link above:
PFC Manning is held in his cell for approximately 23 hours a day.
The guards are required to check on PFC Manning every five minutes by asking him if he is okay. PFC Manning is required to respond in some affirmative manner. At night, if the guards cannot see PFC Manning clearly, because he has a blanket over his head or is curled up towards the wall, they will wake him in order to ensure he is okay. [my emphasis]
This is torture. Waterboarding is torture, sleep deprivation is torture, and solitary confinement is torture. The fact that solitary confinement has surged to the point of becoming near-routine in U.S. prisons over the last 20 years, that close to a hundred thousand human beings are being subjected to it on any given day here, has not made it less torturous. What it has done is make some human rights advocates hesitate to focus on it because of the very scale of the problem in the “we-don’t-torture” United States of America.
That hesitation, finally, appears to have been overcome. A year ago the National Religious Coalition Against Torture has made ending prison torture, in particular solitary confinement, a specific part of its efforts. The Solitary Watch project began. This past December 10, international human rights day, was the occasion of a significant statement on isolation as torture, part of an international effort to refocus attention on it.
The authorities at the Quantico brig are using an unjustified and prolonged Prevention of Injury order to subject Bradley Manning to sleep deprivation, isolation, and extreme control/observation. [None of us know who authorized this or why, but it is consistent with known U.S. practice for this to be “softening him up for interrogation.”]
“softening him up for interrogation.”
By which I mean, getting him to say something that will help them to prosecute Julian Assange. I’m assuming that he can only be questioned in the presence of his attorney.
“softening him up for interrogation.”
By which I mean, getting him to say something that will help them to prosecute Julian Assange. I’m assuming that he can only be questioned in the presence of his attorney.
This is what due process looks like in the military. Not pretty, but it’s grinding right along.
I’ll thank you not to lecture me on this. I am, as I have mentioned, possessed of a more-than-passing professional familiarity with such things.
The fact that the legal challenges to the nature of his confinement are advancing as quickly as is possible does not mean that his confinement as it stands is lawful. It means that it has not been deemed unlawful, because it has not yet been judged one way or another. Hence your defenses of the nature of his confinement, despite appearances that it is not reasonable, are somewhat troubling, when your justification appears to be that if it were illegal, it wouldn’t be happening.
That his solitary confinement is justified as protecting him from himself does nothing to lend his treatment an air of legitimacy, if one are at all familiar with the ease with which such measures can be imposed.
This is what due process looks like in the military. Not pretty, but it’s grinding right along.
I’ll thank you not to lecture me on this. I am, as I have mentioned, possessed of a more-than-passing professional familiarity with such things.
The fact that the legal challenges to the nature of his confinement are advancing as quickly as is possible does not mean that his confinement as it stands is lawful. It means that it has not been deemed unlawful, because it has not yet been judged one way or another. Hence your defenses of the nature of his confinement, despite appearances that it is not reasonable, are somewhat troubling, when your justification appears to be that if it were illegal, it wouldn’t be happening.
That his solitary confinement is justified as protecting him from himself does nothing to lend his treatment an air of legitimacy, if one are at all familiar with the ease with which such measures can be imposed.
Not lecturing you, envy. Due process in the military is grossly insufficient, but people who sign up for the military are doing so voluntarily. As a civil law attorney, back in the day, I worked on an article 15 case and was shocked and appalled at “military justice”. But no matter how often I b**ched and complained to military people, they all shrugged their shoulders – they all seemed to believe and understand (and support the fact) that the ridiculous state of affairs was normal, and was what people sign up for.
My feeling is: don’t join the Armed Services if you value your Constitutional rights. If you do, don’t get in trouble with the law; and especially, don’t breach the trust of the United States. But if you want to be miserable, shoot the moon!
According to the time line mentioned by his attorney, Bradley Manning’s Article 13 hearing should be happening very soon (within a week or two). Hope it goes well for him.
Not lecturing you, envy. Due process in the military is grossly insufficient, but people who sign up for the military are doing so voluntarily. As a civil law attorney, back in the day, I worked on an article 15 case and was shocked and appalled at “military justice”. But no matter how often I b**ched and complained to military people, they all shrugged their shoulders – they all seemed to believe and understand (and support the fact) that the ridiculous state of affairs was normal, and was what people sign up for.
My feeling is: don’t join the Armed Services if you value your Constitutional rights. If you do, don’t get in trouble with the law; and especially, don’t breach the trust of the United States. But if you want to be miserable, shoot the moon!
According to the time line mentioned by his attorney, Bradley Manning’s Article 13 hearing should be happening very soon (within a week or two). Hope it goes well for him.
Welcome to SuperMax.
Nobody should be put in solitary confinement over 90 days.
It’s torture.
Read Atul Gawande March 30, 2009:
Yes. Answers at link.
Welcome to SuperMax.
Nobody should be put in solitary confinement over 90 days.
It’s torture.
Read Atul Gawande March 30, 2009:
Yes. Answers at link.
It’s hard to read this as anything but shrugging off U.S. military torture, or even approval (of the he-got-what-he-asked-for variety).
The techniques of isolation and sleep deprivation are known to do permanent damage; the likelihood and severity of such damage increases the longer they go on. In this case the abuses have gone on for at least five months, possibly seven. And they could go on for months more.
Manning’s lawyer emphasizes that an Article 13 hearing, the only apparent hope for lifting the punitive “protective” order, cannot take place until after the charges are formally referred to court martial. I certainly hope that will happen as soon as possible; I’d appreciate any link (from sapient or anyone else) to substantiate the idea that this is likely to happen within the next two weeks.
It’s hard to read this as anything but shrugging off U.S. military torture, or even approval (of the he-got-what-he-asked-for variety).
The techniques of isolation and sleep deprivation are known to do permanent damage; the likelihood and severity of such damage increases the longer they go on. In this case the abuses have gone on for at least five months, possibly seven. And they could go on for months more.
Manning’s lawyer emphasizes that an Article 13 hearing, the only apparent hope for lifting the punitive “protective” order, cannot take place until after the charges are formally referred to court martial. I certainly hope that will happen as soon as possible; I’d appreciate any link (from sapient or anyone else) to substantiate the idea that this is likely to happen within the next two weeks.
“Bradley’s pre-trial Article 32 hearing has not yet been scheduled, but is likely to take place in either December or January 2011.”
Granted, the source isn’t authoritative, but given that on November 1, Coombs published a status update which stated that the classification process was pending and would take another three to six weeks, then security clearances would be provided where needed, the hearing is probably imminent. (The same update was published on Coombs website three weeks later – the lawyer not having changed any of the prospective dates.) Certainly, there will be speedy trial problems if the government can’t show diligence in obtaining the security clearances.
But Nell, no, I’m not shrugging off anything. Extended solitary confinement is inhumane. But reasonable expectations about what might happen to a person who commits a proscribed act is part of due process. For example, during the Bush torture regime, acts perpetrated on the victims were beyond the kind of treatment that any of them might have expected, in that nobody could have “signed up” for being waterboarded, being required to assume uncomfortable physical positions for hours on end, etc.
In contrast, the conditions of Manning’s imprisonment are part of the system. They may be horrifying and “torture” in some people’s view (not as horrifying IMO as the physical pain inflicted during the Bush years), but everyone knows they are a possibility. When Manning decided that he would join the armed services, he knew (or could have known) that he could be subjected to a harsher regime, that he would be giving up certain rights. He then (apparently) voluntarily committed the acts he’s accused of, knowing that the acts were considered a serious breach of the law, with serious punitive consequences.
We, as a society, might (should perhaps) say “No way” to longterm solitary confinement generally. (To do so would require not only protest, of course, but a proposal of alternative means of addressing the problems that solitary confinement is supposedly meant to address – such as mental health treatment, including appropriate accommodations, for prisoners, etc.) But since society still tolerates the practice, I think that there’s an important distinction between following laws and procedures that may be flawed such as the ones Manning has been subjected to, and trying to go outside the law, and inventing punishments and “interrogation techniques” that no one could have expected, as happened during the Bush regime. When so much of the rhetoric in this case sounds like “Obama’s treatment of Manning is another example of his continuing the torture policies of the Bush regime” it feeds into the false equivalencies that will undermine the progress that many of us are working towards.
if prison reform were my particular focus, I would be trying to find a different case to bring attention to systemic abuses.
“Bradley’s pre-trial Article 32 hearing has not yet been scheduled, but is likely to take place in either December or January 2011.”
Granted, the source isn’t authoritative, but given that on November 1, Coombs published a status update which stated that the classification process was pending and would take another three to six weeks, then security clearances would be provided where needed, the hearing is probably imminent. (The same update was published on Coombs website three weeks later – the lawyer not having changed any of the prospective dates.) Certainly, there will be speedy trial problems if the government can’t show diligence in obtaining the security clearances.
But Nell, no, I’m not shrugging off anything. Extended solitary confinement is inhumane. But reasonable expectations about what might happen to a person who commits a proscribed act is part of due process. For example, during the Bush torture regime, acts perpetrated on the victims were beyond the kind of treatment that any of them might have expected, in that nobody could have “signed up” for being waterboarded, being required to assume uncomfortable physical positions for hours on end, etc.
In contrast, the conditions of Manning’s imprisonment are part of the system. They may be horrifying and “torture” in some people’s view (not as horrifying IMO as the physical pain inflicted during the Bush years), but everyone knows they are a possibility. When Manning decided that he would join the armed services, he knew (or could have known) that he could be subjected to a harsher regime, that he would be giving up certain rights. He then (apparently) voluntarily committed the acts he’s accused of, knowing that the acts were considered a serious breach of the law, with serious punitive consequences.
We, as a society, might (should perhaps) say “No way” to longterm solitary confinement generally. (To do so would require not only protest, of course, but a proposal of alternative means of addressing the problems that solitary confinement is supposedly meant to address – such as mental health treatment, including appropriate accommodations, for prisoners, etc.) But since society still tolerates the practice, I think that there’s an important distinction between following laws and procedures that may be flawed such as the ones Manning has been subjected to, and trying to go outside the law, and inventing punishments and “interrogation techniques” that no one could have expected, as happened during the Bush regime. When so much of the rhetoric in this case sounds like “Obama’s treatment of Manning is another example of his continuing the torture policies of the Bush regime” it feeds into the false equivalencies that will undermine the progress that many of us are working towards.
if prison reform were my particular focus, I would be trying to find a different case to bring attention to systemic abuses.
Thanks, sapient, for the link on the timetable.
Prison reform isn’t my particular focus. No one I’m aware of is using the illegal, abusive pre-trial treatment the U.S. military is meting out to Bradley Manning as their feature case for ending solitary generally, exactly because the case has so many unusual features. I brought up solitary and prisons on this thread to make clear that the view that solitary is torture is a scientific fact, not a fringe opinion, and to note the existence of a movement to re-establish that understanding in the U.S.
It’s difficult for many people to internalize the reality that “touchless” techniques like sleep deprivation and isolation are torture; they think physical tortures are “real torture”, and the rest as “harsh conditions.” That’s exactly why our government has invested so much effort over the last sixty years in refining “touchless” torture, in which sleep deprivation and isolation are important components.
Alfred McCoy’s A Question of Torture documents this history, and the continuity of U.S. torture from one administration to the next. Darius Rejali’s Torture and Democracy takes an even broader look at the development of psychological and “touchless” tortures under democracies, exactly in order to take advantage of this popular intuition that only physical tortures are “real torture”.
Much of the torture conducted under the Bush administration was classic CIA-model, dread-debility-dependence “touchless” torture. What changed during the Bush-Cheney regime was that torture became an explicit official policy. No one invented anything new at the site of the tortures; what was new was memos by the Office of Legal Counsel “legalizing” it, the Secretary of Defense signing off on a collection of specific torture techniques, and a cabinet-level group meeting regularly to authorize particular tortures for particular prisoners.
That level of official policy support for and involvement in torture has ended in the Obama administration. But the new administration has shown a strong commitment to unchecked and unreviewable executive power, to ever-greater levels of secrecy, and to unusually zealous pursuit of whistleblowers. These are the conditions under which abuses of all kinds flourish.
At the absolute minimum, this administration has countenanced the torture of at least one prisoner, a U.S. citizen in whose case it has a particular interest.
Thanks, sapient, for the link on the timetable.
Prison reform isn’t my particular focus. No one I’m aware of is using the illegal, abusive pre-trial treatment the U.S. military is meting out to Bradley Manning as their feature case for ending solitary generally, exactly because the case has so many unusual features. I brought up solitary and prisons on this thread to make clear that the view that solitary is torture is a scientific fact, not a fringe opinion, and to note the existence of a movement to re-establish that understanding in the U.S.
It’s difficult for many people to internalize the reality that “touchless” techniques like sleep deprivation and isolation are torture; they think physical tortures are “real torture”, and the rest as “harsh conditions.” That’s exactly why our government has invested so much effort over the last sixty years in refining “touchless” torture, in which sleep deprivation and isolation are important components.
Alfred McCoy’s A Question of Torture documents this history, and the continuity of U.S. torture from one administration to the next. Darius Rejali’s Torture and Democracy takes an even broader look at the development of psychological and “touchless” tortures under democracies, exactly in order to take advantage of this popular intuition that only physical tortures are “real torture”.
Much of the torture conducted under the Bush administration was classic CIA-model, dread-debility-dependence “touchless” torture. What changed during the Bush-Cheney regime was that torture became an explicit official policy. No one invented anything new at the site of the tortures; what was new was memos by the Office of Legal Counsel “legalizing” it, the Secretary of Defense signing off on a collection of specific torture techniques, and a cabinet-level group meeting regularly to authorize particular tortures for particular prisoners.
That level of official policy support for and involvement in torture has ended in the Obama administration. But the new administration has shown a strong commitment to unchecked and unreviewable executive power, to ever-greater levels of secrecy, and to unusually zealous pursuit of whistleblowers. These are the conditions under which abuses of all kinds flourish.
At the absolute minimum, this administration has countenanced the torture of at least one prisoner, a U.S. citizen in whose case it has a particular interest.
But since society still tolerates the practice, I think that there’s an important distinction between following laws and procedures that may be flawed such as the ones Manning has been subjected to, and trying to go outside the law, and inventing punishments and “interrogation techniques” that no one could have expected, as happened during the Bush regime.
As Nell points out, the above statement you make is somewhat irrelevant, as there’s no good-faith reason to assert that in Manning’s case the military corrections facility responsible for his pre-trial confinement is following existing laws and procedures, flawed or otherwise. Saying “Oh, but he volunteered to enlist and (apparently) volunteered to commit a crime, so he has no grounds for protesting being treated according to the UCMJ”, misses the point entirely both for the obvious irrelevance of the second observation (the UCMJ does not allow for assumption of guilt any more than US civilian law; hence the existence of Article 13), and the fact that the whole issue is that he appears to be being treated in contravention of the UCMJ. Saying he has no grounds in complaining about being subjected to rules that he’s not actually being subjected to is, um, a spurious defense of his treatment, to say the least…
But since society still tolerates the practice, I think that there’s an important distinction between following laws and procedures that may be flawed such as the ones Manning has been subjected to, and trying to go outside the law, and inventing punishments and “interrogation techniques” that no one could have expected, as happened during the Bush regime.
As Nell points out, the above statement you make is somewhat irrelevant, as there’s no good-faith reason to assert that in Manning’s case the military corrections facility responsible for his pre-trial confinement is following existing laws and procedures, flawed or otherwise. Saying “Oh, but he volunteered to enlist and (apparently) volunteered to commit a crime, so he has no grounds for protesting being treated according to the UCMJ”, misses the point entirely both for the obvious irrelevance of the second observation (the UCMJ does not allow for assumption of guilt any more than US civilian law; hence the existence of Article 13), and the fact that the whole issue is that he appears to be being treated in contravention of the UCMJ. Saying he has no grounds in complaining about being subjected to rules that he’s not actually being subjected to is, um, a spurious defense of his treatment, to say the least…
Nell and envy, there certainly is a “good faith reason” to argue that he is not being treated illegally. Under the UCMJ (and civilian law) when there is probably cause for arrest, a defendant can be detained before trial. There is no bail in the military.
Before the alleged crime ever happened, there were concerns on the part of Manning’s supervisor about mental instability. He’s clearly had problems in his relationships with fellow soldiers.
After a hearing under the UCMJ, the officer who is legally authorized to determine the conditions of his detention made a decision that he should be placed under POI guidelines. There is no reason to believe that the POI guidelines aren’t being followed. The trial delay can be attributed to the legitimate work that his case requires.
There is absolutely nothing apparently “illegal” about his treatment. When he finally gets his hearing, it’s possible that certain errors will be found (as happens in many appeals and proceedings). His lawyer discusses the potential remedies available if it is determined that his pretrial detention was punitive.
Where does his lawyer state that he is being treated in contravention of the UCMJ? Where’s your link for that? And no, Nell, the Obama administration hasn’t “countenanced the torture” of Manning. It simply hasn’t reformed the criminal justice system or the procedures under the UCMJ.
By the way, although it’s behind a subscription firewall, David Cole has written a thoughtful article about the differences between the Bush and Obama administration in TNR. There are rebuttals to his essay that are freely available. But I agree with him, that blurring the distinctions between their approaches, thereby undermining Obama’s support , is counterproductive. If you’re interested in human rights, all you have to do is read court opinions by judges appointed by Democrats versus Republicans, to understand who is protecting what. Keep up that circular firing squad!
Nell and envy, there certainly is a “good faith reason” to argue that he is not being treated illegally. Under the UCMJ (and civilian law) when there is probably cause for arrest, a defendant can be detained before trial. There is no bail in the military.
Before the alleged crime ever happened, there were concerns on the part of Manning’s supervisor about mental instability. He’s clearly had problems in his relationships with fellow soldiers.
After a hearing under the UCMJ, the officer who is legally authorized to determine the conditions of his detention made a decision that he should be placed under POI guidelines. There is no reason to believe that the POI guidelines aren’t being followed. The trial delay can be attributed to the legitimate work that his case requires.
There is absolutely nothing apparently “illegal” about his treatment. When he finally gets his hearing, it’s possible that certain errors will be found (as happens in many appeals and proceedings). His lawyer discusses the potential remedies available if it is determined that his pretrial detention was punitive.
Where does his lawyer state that he is being treated in contravention of the UCMJ? Where’s your link for that? And no, Nell, the Obama administration hasn’t “countenanced the torture” of Manning. It simply hasn’t reformed the criminal justice system or the procedures under the UCMJ.
By the way, although it’s behind a subscription firewall, David Cole has written a thoughtful article about the differences between the Bush and Obama administration in TNR. There are rebuttals to his essay that are freely available. But I agree with him, that blurring the distinctions between their approaches, thereby undermining Obama’s support , is counterproductive. If you’re interested in human rights, all you have to do is read court opinions by judges appointed by Democrats versus Republicans, to understand who is protecting what. Keep up that circular firing squad!
Just as an example of what Obama has done in pursuit of a more humane justice system, please refer to this article about Justice Sonia Sotomayor. That’s what effective protection of human rights looks like.
Just as an example of what Obama has done in pursuit of a more humane justice system, please refer to this article about Justice Sonia Sotomayor. That’s what effective protection of human rights looks like.
[continued from prior comment]
Justice Sonia Sotomayor.
[continued from prior comment]
Justice Sonia Sotomayor.
His lawyer believes that there is an Article 13 violation of the UCMJ, and has made clear his intention to make that argument when he has the opportunity to do so.
It’s not happenstance that Manning, an Army soldier, is being held at a Marine brig, making it much more difficult to reach the actual chain of command. From Coombs’ post of Dec. 21:
Somebody in the chain of command is determined to maintain pressure on Manning by way of an unjustified and unjustifiably prolonged PoI. The President doesn’t have to order it personally to be countenancing it.
His lawyer believes that there is an Article 13 violation of the UCMJ, and has made clear his intention to make that argument when he has the opportunity to do so.
It’s not happenstance that Manning, an Army soldier, is being held at a Marine brig, making it much more difficult to reach the actual chain of command. From Coombs’ post of Dec. 21:
Somebody in the chain of command is determined to maintain pressure on Manning by way of an unjustified and unjustifiably prolonged PoI. The President doesn’t have to order it personally to be countenancing it.
I appreciate the link to David Cole’s article, which is now apparently in the clear. I’ve also located a couple of the responses to it.
It would certainly help rebuild the lost trust of his more civil liberties-committed supporters for the president to take the advice of Cole, one of the most fair-minded of these:
…it is precisely the administration’s refusal to be transparent and acknowledge past legal wrongs that fuels the widespread criticism that Obama is merely “Bush Lite” when it comes to counterterrorism. The administration has, in my view, been unjustly criticized. While it has not done all it should, it has nevertheless made real, meaningful changes. But if Obama wants to respond to his critics, reassure the world, and restore the trust so essential to success, he must be willing to look backward, acknowledge wrongdoing, and defend openly the legality of continuing tactics. Obama’s reluctance to embrace these core principles gives credence to both the critics’ complaints and the enemy’s recruitment efforts. Only transparency and accountability can make clear whether Obama has truly turned the page on the disastrous policies of his predecessor.
I’m not holding my breath, but it’s a new year. Maybe some of those new inner staffers are giving him this same advice. If not, well, the criticism only becomes more credible the longer the approach of the first two years continues.
I appreciate the link to David Cole’s article, which is now apparently in the clear. I’ve also located a couple of the responses to it.
It would certainly help rebuild the lost trust of his more civil liberties-committed supporters for the president to take the advice of Cole, one of the most fair-minded of these:
…it is precisely the administration’s refusal to be transparent and acknowledge past legal wrongs that fuels the widespread criticism that Obama is merely “Bush Lite” when it comes to counterterrorism. The administration has, in my view, been unjustly criticized. While it has not done all it should, it has nevertheless made real, meaningful changes. But if Obama wants to respond to his critics, reassure the world, and restore the trust so essential to success, he must be willing to look backward, acknowledge wrongdoing, and defend openly the legality of continuing tactics. Obama’s reluctance to embrace these core principles gives credence to both the critics’ complaints and the enemy’s recruitment efforts. Only transparency and accountability can make clear whether Obama has truly turned the page on the disastrous policies of his predecessor.
I’m not holding my breath, but it’s a new year. Maybe some of those new inner staffers are giving him this same advice. If not, well, the criticism only becomes more credible the longer the approach of the first two years continues.
“His lawyer believes that there is an Article 13 violation of the UCMJ, and has made clear his intention to make that argument when he has the opportunity to do so.”
It’s perfectly appropriate that his lawyer should question his treatment and make that challenge. It may be that there is an Article 13 violation, but the lawyer has to prove it. Nothing you’ve said, or that I have read, proves it – there are legitimate reasons that have been stated for his pretrial detainment. These reasons may be illegitimate, but they haven’t been proven so. Lawyers frequently make challenges to procedures, and sometimes win. Under the Bush torture regime, people were denied attorneys and hearings for years. Manning has had hearings, counsel, opportunity to collect evidence, etc., and will have further hearings and trial. It’s all called due process.
“Somebody in the chain of command is determined to maintain pressure on Manning by way of an unjustified and unjustifiably prolonged PoI.”
Again, whether it’s “unjustified” is subject to dispute. That’s what the hearing will answer. As to the PoI being “unjustifiably prolonged,” I haven’t seen any indication, even on the lawyer’s web site, that the detention is being purposely delayed. In fact, if it is being purposely delayed, the prosecution’s case could be jeopardized on speedy trial grounds. From what I’ve read, there are security clearances that have to be obtained. Some of what is occurring is a result of the defense having filed motions in the case – in other words, as a result of Manning’s lawyer’s actions. Obviously, zealous representation requires that these motions be filed, but they take time.
It may be found that there were illegalities in Manning’s detention, and (as I pointed out earlier) his lawyer discusses the potential remedies for that circumstance.
As to Obama micromanaging every case that is apparently being handled under the UCMJ or the United States Code, that’s an absurd expectation. Is Obama supposed to be offering an expert opinion on Manning’s need for a prevention of injury order? Not sure what you’re trying to say here.
As to David Cole’s criticism, I agree with it in theory, but how Obama carries out the “looking backward” is the tricky part. Anything that requires Congressional cooperation will be dead in the water. (See, for example, his efforts to close Guantanamo and to try detainees in civilian courts.)
In the meantime, the biggest difference that can be made in the shortest time for the many people languishing in inhumane prison conditions is to have better federal judges. Stoking the “Primary Obama because he’s just like Bush!” mantra isn’t going to get us that.
“His lawyer believes that there is an Article 13 violation of the UCMJ, and has made clear his intention to make that argument when he has the opportunity to do so.”
It’s perfectly appropriate that his lawyer should question his treatment and make that challenge. It may be that there is an Article 13 violation, but the lawyer has to prove it. Nothing you’ve said, or that I have read, proves it – there are legitimate reasons that have been stated for his pretrial detainment. These reasons may be illegitimate, but they haven’t been proven so. Lawyers frequently make challenges to procedures, and sometimes win. Under the Bush torture regime, people were denied attorneys and hearings for years. Manning has had hearings, counsel, opportunity to collect evidence, etc., and will have further hearings and trial. It’s all called due process.
“Somebody in the chain of command is determined to maintain pressure on Manning by way of an unjustified and unjustifiably prolonged PoI.”
Again, whether it’s “unjustified” is subject to dispute. That’s what the hearing will answer. As to the PoI being “unjustifiably prolonged,” I haven’t seen any indication, even on the lawyer’s web site, that the detention is being purposely delayed. In fact, if it is being purposely delayed, the prosecution’s case could be jeopardized on speedy trial grounds. From what I’ve read, there are security clearances that have to be obtained. Some of what is occurring is a result of the defense having filed motions in the case – in other words, as a result of Manning’s lawyer’s actions. Obviously, zealous representation requires that these motions be filed, but they take time.
It may be found that there were illegalities in Manning’s detention, and (as I pointed out earlier) his lawyer discusses the potential remedies for that circumstance.
As to Obama micromanaging every case that is apparently being handled under the UCMJ or the United States Code, that’s an absurd expectation. Is Obama supposed to be offering an expert opinion on Manning’s need for a prevention of injury order? Not sure what you’re trying to say here.
As to David Cole’s criticism, I agree with it in theory, but how Obama carries out the “looking backward” is the tricky part. Anything that requires Congressional cooperation will be dead in the water. (See, for example, his efforts to close Guantanamo and to try detainees in civilian courts.)
In the meantime, the biggest difference that can be made in the shortest time for the many people languishing in inhumane prison conditions is to have better federal judges. Stoking the “Primary Obama because he’s just like Bush!” mantra isn’t going to get us that.
This will be my last post on the thread, as it seems we’re going over already covered ground. I’ve appreciated your engaging with me.
The Article 13 issue is not the fact of Manning’s detention but the punitive conditions of his detention, especially the 23-hour cell isolation, the exercise restrictions, including shackling, the constant forced response to guards, and the sleep disruption including interruptions and forced nudity.
By calling the PoI ‘unjustifiably prolonged’ I don’t primarily mean that the powers that be are delaying Manning’s court martial, though we’ll have reason to believe that’s happening if the punitive conditions continue and there is not a formal referral soon. I mean that conditions known to be damaging if they go on longer than 90 days have continued without letup under the figleaf of a Prevention of Injury order for at least five months. Five months of sleep disruption/deprivation alone — much less when combined with isolation, lack of real exercise, and constant, impersonal intrusion — is the opposite of “prevention of injury”: it promotes mental damage.
You go back and forth between “nothing to see here” and some admission of punitive conditions with “hey, that’s what you get, that’s the army”.
Obama: Put away the straw about micromanagaing every federal and UCMJ case. If the people in the White House are aware of any details in any case in the country, it’s this one. The very public musings of the Attorney General about prosecution of Assange (which could only be contemplated with testimony from someone who had had dealings with him), the hard line the President and his administration were taking in leak and whistleblowing cases even before Manning’s arrest, and the military’s own zeal to make an example of Manning combine to put the responsibility for his abusive treatment in Quantico all they way along the chain of command, including at the top.
My focus on Manning’s treatment has absolutely nothing to do with elections. Nothing. It has to do with whether this government has any commitment to the spirit as well as the letter of the law in the treatment of persons held on charges involving national security issues. (Those in power can always find someone to make the findings necessary to “legalize” what they wish to do, whether in the Office of Legal Counsel or the Quantico medical staff.)
I haven’t been active here at ObWi for a year or more, and can’t reasonably expect you to know what my politics are (nor even people who “know” me here, to the extent that my take on things has evolved/reverted while away). But you appear to assume I’m part of some faction with which you have issues, apparently because I linked to Glenn Greenwald. I’m not a proxy for anyone. I’m me; I’ve been aware of and protesting U.S. torture under every administration since Johnson’s. That doesn’t mean I don’t grasp differences among administrations; it means I see the continuities as well as the differences.
This will be my last post on the thread, as it seems we’re going over already covered ground. I’ve appreciated your engaging with me.
The Article 13 issue is not the fact of Manning’s detention but the punitive conditions of his detention, especially the 23-hour cell isolation, the exercise restrictions, including shackling, the constant forced response to guards, and the sleep disruption including interruptions and forced nudity.
By calling the PoI ‘unjustifiably prolonged’ I don’t primarily mean that the powers that be are delaying Manning’s court martial, though we’ll have reason to believe that’s happening if the punitive conditions continue and there is not a formal referral soon. I mean that conditions known to be damaging if they go on longer than 90 days have continued without letup under the figleaf of a Prevention of Injury order for at least five months. Five months of sleep disruption/deprivation alone — much less when combined with isolation, lack of real exercise, and constant, impersonal intrusion — is the opposite of “prevention of injury”: it promotes mental damage.
You go back and forth between “nothing to see here” and some admission of punitive conditions with “hey, that’s what you get, that’s the army”.
Obama: Put away the straw about micromanagaing every federal and UCMJ case. If the people in the White House are aware of any details in any case in the country, it’s this one. The very public musings of the Attorney General about prosecution of Assange (which could only be contemplated with testimony from someone who had had dealings with him), the hard line the President and his administration were taking in leak and whistleblowing cases even before Manning’s arrest, and the military’s own zeal to make an example of Manning combine to put the responsibility for his abusive treatment in Quantico all they way along the chain of command, including at the top.
My focus on Manning’s treatment has absolutely nothing to do with elections. Nothing. It has to do with whether this government has any commitment to the spirit as well as the letter of the law in the treatment of persons held on charges involving national security issues. (Those in power can always find someone to make the findings necessary to “legalize” what they wish to do, whether in the Office of Legal Counsel or the Quantico medical staff.)
I haven’t been active here at ObWi for a year or more, and can’t reasonably expect you to know what my politics are (nor even people who “know” me here, to the extent that my take on things has evolved/reverted while away). But you appear to assume I’m part of some faction with which you have issues, apparently because I linked to Glenn Greenwald. I’m not a proxy for anyone. I’m me; I’ve been aware of and protesting U.S. torture under every administration since Johnson’s. That doesn’t mean I don’t grasp differences among administrations; it means I see the continuities as well as the differences.
Said it more than once before o’er the years, hopefully shall have the occasion to say it again: what Nell said. Up to and including the apparent needlessness of recovering the same ground Yet Still Again.
Said it more than once before o’er the years, hopefully shall have the occasion to say it again: what Nell said. Up to and including the apparent needlessness of recovering the same ground Yet Still Again.
As I was dreading, the government continues and even intensifies its abuse of Bradley Manning (following a demo protesting his treatment).
A former Quantico commander objects to the way Manning is being treated. This follows letters in the last two weeks from “usual suspects” (ACLU and Physicians for Social Responsibility).
As I was dreading, the government continues and even intensifies its abuse of Bradley Manning (following a demo protesting his treatment).
A former Quantico commander objects to the way Manning is being treated. This follows letters in the last two weeks from “usual suspects” (ACLU and Physicians for Social Responsibility).
that should be “usual suspects” (Amnesty International and Physicians for Social Responsibility).
that should be “usual suspects” (Amnesty International and Physicians for Social Responsibility).