by publius
Book of John 1:1, 14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . . . And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us[.]
[Obama] is not the Word made flesh, but the triumph of word over flesh, over color, over despair.
Eric Martin has hit upon the most persuasive argument against Obama – namely, that there’s just not much substance after you scrape away the pretty words. In light of New Hampshire, I’ve been giving this argument more thought. In particular, the meddlesome Martin has made me skeptical of my own Obama loyalties, which are often similar in spirit to Klein’s. After all, great substantive me would never be taken in by pretty surfaces, right? Perhaps, but the more I think about it, the more it seems that support for Obama has taken on religious dimensions. And that’s not good.
Last night, I caught most of The Last King of Scotland (awesome), beginning with the demagogic speech and rally. I was struck by the similarities to Huey Long, and to All The King’s Men more generally (the book, not the wretched movie). Both works are studies in the art of the charismatic demagogue. And both characters adopt similar rhetorical strategies. They play on resentment (British/big money), but – crucially – they are also both populists. That is, both leaders promise reforms that are desperately needed by their crushingly poor audiences – e.g., schools, hospitals, bridges, etc.
Turning to Obama, I agree that some of his speeches are high on rhetoric but short on delicious policy meat. What then is it about those speeches that so moves us? And by “us,” I mean secular progressives, particularly younger ones. Frankly, I think religion is playing a role. Progressives have a strange relationship with religion. Many are (at least privately) contemptuous of it, but the depths of hostility often betrays a lingering, if subconscious, jealousy of those who believe. Religion, after all, provides a sense of togetherness and a sense of belonging to something higher. In short, a purpose.
These desires themselves, however, are not confined to the religious, but are quite universal. Perhaps they are the evolutionary byproduct of communal living (i.e., evolution rewarded humans who lived communally, and these instincts expanded into more abstract realms). Others might cite the embedded desires as evidence of the divine spark. But regardless, they’re there. And just like any evangelical, secular progressives want to fulfill them – not necessarily with God, but with something higher and more noble. They want to fill the void with purpose.
Indeed, many modern movements – from socialism to New Age philosophy (i.e., liberal fascism) – can be seen as attempts to fill the void that the death of God left behind. After all, whatever its practical flaws (and there are many), there is something profoundly religious animating the theory of communism, which is far closer to the tenets of Christianity than capitalism.
Here then is where Obama comes in. Obama seems to be filling a spiritual void that many modern secular progressives (like all humans) tend to develop. Whether the enthusiasm stems from youth’s susceptibility to romantic idealism, or instead from the longing caused by the slow lonely grind of professional life, something is causing these people to see in Obama something more than politics. They’re seeing – and feeling – something higher.
On this note, it’s interesting that Klein would use the particular allusion I quoted above (an allusion to the infamous opening of the Book of John) in describing Obama’s rhetorical power. Quite simply, Klein’s language is the language of religion, not politics. And he’s far from alone in using this language. (And I’m not picking on him – I understand the sentiment, as I noted in a previous post).
But that said, it’s the religious dimension that’s giving me the most pause. Frankly, I’m disturbed by the implications if the Obama campaign has indeed become a secular religion to many progressives. (If you disagree with that premise, then obviously you’re going to disagree with the rest of this).
Most disturbingly, it illustrates that secular progressives – you know, cynical rational substantive geniuses that we are – are little different from the crowds cheering on Huey Long. Like them, we are responding to emotional populist appeals – just different types of appeals. They aren’t about schools and bridges, because we don’t lack those – we’ve been lucky on that front. Instead, Obama is offering something we often don’t have, but that we similarly crave and need – a higher purpose, a sense of connectedness and community. In short, Obama is providing a secular religion. More cynically, it’s wine-track demagoguery.
Although I remain an Obama supporter, I do fear that I’m allowing myself to be enchanted in an intellectually juvenile way. Of course, like you I suspect, I think of myself as more sophisticated than the crowds that vacillated mindlessly from Brutus to Marc Antony. But the truth is that I’m not all that different. I too am all too human, and thus susceptible to the same types of appeals, even if they come dressed in different clothes.
None of this is necessarily an argument for abandoning Obama, but it is an argument for snapping out of the spell and concentrating harder on the meat.
Cynicism does no justice to this impulse, because it’s a NECESSARY impulse for collective action in many ways. To inspire many humans to do things together is hard thing; we’re a cantankerous ornery lot as it is. There are emotional, logical and spiritual impulses to action, and it is the strongest movements that can incorporate all three.
(Conversely, it’s the most dangerous movements that allow one or another [usually emotional or the spiritual] to dominate. Moderation in all things)
Homework assignment, Publius.
Read the first 3 chapters of Thurman Arnold’s The Folklore of Capitalism. Then meditate and relax.
Finally someone (Obama) is PLAYING THE GAME NECESSARY TO MAKE CHANGE HAPPEN. Granted, often change is for the worse. But right now things aren’t exactly great, and I’m not afraid of the changes that Obama seems to want.
As Arnold realizes, politics IS the performance of style over substance. As Schumpeter noted (and Arnold clearly agrees), the democratic effect is not constructive, but simply an illusion designed to accomplish political peace. Obama’s got plenty of illusion, but its not a bad thing, no more than it is a good thing. It’s simply an effective thing.
Uhh, what? Obama’s a great candidate – great wonkishness, great background, great intelligence, great personal qualities, great rhetorical skills. Why shouldn’t you feel strongly drawn to him (as long as that doesn’t cloud your judgement about the other great candidates)? If it wasn’t for Obama starting his campaign with an over-the-top religious statement and the hatred of Edwards and Clinton expressed by a lot of his supporters on DailyKos, neither good reasons, I’d probably feel the same way (ok, there is the Krugman and kumbaya stuff).
I was pulling for Edwards.
Isn’t he only doing the matching funds thing.
What a fascinating, thought-provoking post. I love your title. I am very impressed by your ability to rethink your original positions. This week has been a long strange political trip for me. When Obama made his victory speech in Iowa a week ago, I was utterly seduced. Jack and Bob Kennedy had risen from the dead, reviving my political idealism that died 40 year ago. Obama’s appeal seened messianic and the enthusiasm of his supporters seemed a return to 60s activism. That night I was more hopeful than I have been in 20 years that the country could halt its death spiral and become the good society with a constitutional government once again.
I was only mesmerized for a day, and then I started dwelling on past disillusionments. JFK swept me away when I was 11 years old, but he was a mediocre president; I have never believed he would have kept us out of Vietnam. Bobby might seem the forever young idealist only because he is dead. Clinton’s debate performance seemed superior. As in every debate I am impressed by her intelligence and knowledge.
The volcano of vicious sexist attacks on Clinton galvanized me, resurrecting my youthful radical feminism. Finally after months of struggle, I acknowledged that feminist issues are dealbreakers for me. All week I have been furious, appalled, sickened, particularly by women pundits who keep attacking the intelligence, seriousness, and sophistication of the women who voted for Clinton. Women can be their own worst enemies, particularly women who have made it and seem to need to consider themselves creatures apart from the average women they so need to feel superior to.
I was appalled by Jackson’s attack on Hillary’s so-called tears and Obama’s refusal to disown his remarks. Given how badly Edwards was hurt by a far more innocuous criticism of Hillary, I question Obama’s political intelligence as well.I have not seen any evidence he really gets it about feminist issues. This week I do not intend to flip flop with every news report and blog read.
“I was appalled by Jackson’s attack on Hillary’s so-called tears and Obama’s refusal to disown his remarks.”
Has Obama refused to do so? Has he been asked about the matter at all?
In this one post, you have distilled and put on display how elitist liberals see themselves and their contempt for those considered beneath them.
Bravo!
The bit about the void gives me the jibblies. I can just see the folks at RedState taking a peek over here and saying, “See? I was right! I *knew* those atheists were dying inside”. (BTW, I’m not making that up about dying inside. I was actually told that on RedState).
So I just want to say, for all of you RedState readers — THERE IS NO VOID!
Okay, I feel a little better.
You mention two aspects of the (completely non-existent) void: a sense of community, and a higher purpose. There is no need to resort to religion, religion-like activities , or religionesque emotions to fulfill these human desires. Religion is just one manifestation of what evolution has shouldered us with.
One of the prevalent principles of thoughful atheists (people like Dennett) is that we have the freedom and the responsibility to determine our own higher purpose, rather than having one handed to us by an institution. It’s not a solipsistic endeavor. We hash out common philosophies so that we can participate in a communal higher purpose.
When Obama talks about hope, I think he means more than the people who make fun of him for it think he means. To me, he’s saying, “You and I share a higher purpose, and many others do too. The political atmosphere in America makes you tired and jaded and fatalistic. But that can be changed — and I’m the vessel for the vision that we share”. Specifics are lethal to this way of campaigning, but it’s emotionally exciting.
So what are you disturbed by? The prospect of allowing yourself to be excited by ideas that over time seemed more and more futile? The possibility that people will go on being tired and jaded unless there’s someone strong and charismatic enough to make people think they can realize what’s in their heads?
Maybe Obama has people snared because they can’t totally dismiss him without quietly and privately thinking of themselves as defeatists.
dkilmer – i see your point about the void, and perhaps could have been clearer. i suppose a better way of saying is that yuppies generally are the most de-rooted. they work hard, often don’t do community events, and don’t get time with their friends, etc. i think that politics provides a sort of structure and order for these people. i think these same desires for community were a big part of the dean campaign too.
but the larger point — i.e., what i’m afraid of — is that i’m afraid i’m basing an excessive amount of political support on a sort of intellectual/emotional infatuation. it’s to his credit though that he can trigger these feelings among hardened cynics.
Something that might be worth pondering, Publius, is the difference between the excitement of Obama supporters and the fervor of Ron Paul supporters.
I’d hold that one is much more religionesque than the other.
Whoops, missed your reply while I was pondering the whole thing myself. I see where you’re coming from. After a year at RedState, I’m a little jumpy about atheism, so I hope you’ll excuse the overreaction.
I guess what I’m questioning is whether Obama himself is really the object of infatuation. For me, he just lays a torch to something in myself that I’d be really glad to hope for. Could he pull it off? Who knows. But he seems to be the only candidate who’s serious about trying.
I have no idea why I’m defending him. I’m not even an Obama supporter. Maybe I’m just proving your point ;).
I’m a little doubtful about Martin’s take on bipartisanship. If you can get everyone in a group looking in the same direction, then they can have the satisfaction of getting something accomplished without it becoming gridlock, or an endless series of compromises.
I’m also doubtful about Martin’s view of Clinton and Obama’s senate records. The sorts of things you do as a president are completely different than the things you do as a Senator. We probably elect so few Senators to the office because we misunderstand the difference and get sidetracked by voting records.
publius:
I understand the justification for some hesitation about Obama, but here’s the problem: If not him, then who? Edwards would seem to me to be the next logical choice (and, in fact, if we were judging these things on policy alone, he’d likely be the first choice), but his campaign doesn’t seem to be going anywhere. Barring something dramatic, this looks to be a two horse race between Obama and Clinton. For all his warts, Obama wins that contest, for all the reasons you pointed out a couple of days ago.
I think you also underestimate the extent to which perception is reality in the public mind. Obama could get things done in a way Clinton could not, for the simple reason that people tend to like him, a lot more than they like her. I’m not defending his despicable “you’re likable enough” moment, of course, but there is a certain kernel of truth to it. If Obama continues to be perceived as a fresh face, a game changer, and the media continues to cover him that way, then that becomes reality for a large portion of the populace.
So on the one hand, let’s be realistic, and understand that Obama is far from a perfect candidate. But at the same time, let’s realize that he’s probably the best viable candidate we have, and he’s certainly worlds better than anything the GOP has to offer right now. (Which, for that matter, Clinton is, too.)
Sorry – I’ll stop hogging the thread after this. One other thought.
IMHO, it’s Krugman who has the most convincing argument against Obama. He says that now is not the time for bipartisanship. Now is the time for whooping conservative butt. New Deal them into submission, basically. Once they’ve accepted some measure of defeat, liberals can ease up a bit and have a period of bipartisanship.
If he’s right, Clinton might be the better choice.
OK so Obama isn’t a miracle worker. So some of the enthusiam people ahve for him is naive. So what? Why are we looking the gift horse in the mouth? Why aren’t we celebrating the fact that the charismatic candidate is on our team?
We are picking candidate for President, someone who has to get elected in order to be any good at all. That candidate must be able to get thhe votes of people who are not detail annd issue obsessives like Demcratic bloggers tend to be. We are not picking the best canddate for us. We are picking the best candidate to win. Or we should be.
None of the top three are unexceptable choices. None of thhem are bad. In fact, all three are good. This sort of scrutiny to see who is thhe best IN OUR TERMS is unproductive, even counterproductive.
It’s not a matter of Obama lacking substance–the substannce is there for annyone who wants to see it. The problem for some Democrats is that Obama has a style which, while appealing to many new voters and to voters outside the Dem base, doesn’t satisfy the nneed that well-inofrmed obsessives (like me, for example ) have for thhe details and documentation. But so what? Just because I prefer pistachio doesnn’t mean that rocky road isn’t the best choice for this election.
Think of it this way: which is better–to have an election with a candidate that the press hates, that unites the righhtwingers, and that mighht hurt lower ticket candidates, or have a candidate thhat the press likes, the thhe rightwing base can’t attack without looking racist, that pulls in enthusiastic new voters, and might help the down ticket races?
I really thinnk that it is time to stop worrying about which one is thhe closest to our ideal. It’s time to discuss electablility.
That’s all that matters at this point.
IMHO, it’s Krugman who has the most convincing argument against Obama. He says that now is not the time for bipartisanship. Now is the time for whooping conservative butt.
Except that I don’t think Obama disagrees – he just disagrees on tactics. The Krugman/Edwards argument is “let’s beat the shit out of them,” whereas the Obama argument is “let’s pull a Reagan, reframe their more moderate views into progressive ones through cunning use of language, and dominate politics for the next generation.”
It’s smarter politics.
And as an aside, Obama has released more than enough policy this campaign for me to consider arguments re: his lack of substance utterly frivolous. It’s not the Obama campaign tossing out thinly veiled racist insults, after all.
Most disturbingly, it illustrates that secular progressives – you know, cynical rational substantive geniuses that we are – are little different from the crowds cheering on Huey Long. Like them, we are responding to emotional populist appeals – just different types of appeals.
I’m glad you acknowledge this. I tend to agree with secular progressives that emotions/spiritual yearnings can be dangerous (though so can an excess of rationalism – read Jonathan Swift sometime). However, I disagree that they are inherently bad things. Many progressives from my view seem to get so taken with their own educated rationality that they let it bleed into A.)an unrealistic notion that they are above irrationality, and B.)a foolish contempt for those embrace the irrational. Everyone is human. The irrational, like the rational, must be accepted, even embraced (if channeled healthily) – the truth is, human life wouldn’t be bearable without it (think of getting married with the thought that there’s a 50% chance you’ll be getting divorced in your head). It has a role in politics. A lot of the decisions a President makes have nothing whatsoever to do with his/her policy prescriptions, and everything to do with quick decisions made on the fly in response to unforeseen circumstances (think 9/11). A candidate’s judgment, character, and ability to martial support are thus absolutely important considerations, no matter how difficult to quantify they may be.
All that aside, I think the charge that because Obama’s campaign speeches are full of inspiring but airy generalities, he therefore lacks substance, is a canard. Hillary and her surrogates have repeated it ad infinitum because it’s to their advantage to establish this impression, and it’s gotten picked up and mindlessly repeated further by the media. Go to Obama’s website, though, read his policy positions, and you’ll see that he has detailed proposals on pretty much every conceivable issue. He has an instinctual awareness the fact that effective politicking requires pathos and ethos as well as logos, that there is much more to speechmaking and political persuasion than reciting boring laundry lists. But that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have boring laundry lists as well. I don’t deny that Hillary is smart and has a good command of the issues – but I think Obama is just as good on both counts. He’s the total package.
I’m in agreement with Andrew Sullivan – Obama could be the progressive Reagan, a politician capable of shifting the midpoint of the bell curve of American politics fundamentally to the left. His inclusive message will not only make him more appealing to a general electorate, but also enable him to define public discourse in a way no President since Reagan has. He’s the solution to the Democratic dilemma of being unable to convince voters to vote for you despite the fact that your policies are more popular in polls.
As a limited government/fiscal conservative type, I have mixed feelings about all this. I greatly admire Obama and find his refusal to stoop to petty gutter-sniping or demonize people who disagree with him on policy inspiring and refreshing. He doesn’t condescend or look down his nose at any part of the electorate. He offers an inspiring image of American identity. And yet, he could be death to my preferred ideology.
I can’t, for the life of me, see why so many progressives are unwilling see the fact that he’s a liberal politician with tremendous appeal to moderates as a good thing. I read quite a few progressive blogs and have lots of progressive friends, and it seems like the parlor game du jour to try and talk one’s self out of supporting the best political talent the Democratic side has had since Kennedy (yes, he’s better than Bill was – people forget that Clinton only won in ’92 with the aid of Ross Perot), and into supporting a female Kerry/Dukakis/Mondale. I respect Hillary’s accomplishments and grasp of the issues, but purely from a tactical standpoint I think that a.)she’s much less likely to win the general election, especially if she’s up against someone like McCain, and b.)even if she is elected, she can’t achieve the same sweeping progressive mandate that Obama can. She’d start off with close to 50% of the electorate disliking her already and would provoke intense (and, more important, politically safe) obstructionism from Republicans in Congress, so no matter how substantive her agenda, she’d be unlikely to accomplish much of it. She’s not going to get us out of Iraq, so in four years that will become a Democratic albatross, and once the distaste for the Bush era fades, she’d be very beatable by a good Republican opponent in 2012. Progressives are right that the Republicans will try to slime Obama. Where they’re wrong, in my opinion, is in thinking that they will succeed in making him just as widely disliked as Hillary. He’s got way too much personal charm for that.
I’m only one person, so take this for what it’s worth, but I am a swing state independent – exactly the kind of voter you need to win a mandate, in other words – and I would vote for Obama over any of the Republicans, including McCain. I can’t see myself voting for Hillary, yes, on issues, but even moreso on temperament, character, and judgment. I would vote for McCain (enthusiastically) or Romney (holding my nose) over her, and would abstain or vote third party if she’s up against Huckabee or Giuliani.
It is also time to get past the notion that partisanship has to be done with rancor. It doesn’t. We do need the equivalent of a New Deal. We do need someone who will stick up firmly for our values. However that doesn’t have to be done by someone who is out to get even on our behalf, or to get revenge the abuses of the Republicanns, or otherwise satisfy the need that some, including me, feel to blast rage at conservatives. It is more likely to be accomplished by someone who is post partisan–able to express our values, and promote our values without indulging in anger.
BTW I don’t think that Hillary herself is a polarizing figure. I think the the righht polarized the discourse and blamed her for it and continues to hate her rather than face up to there own hyperparisanship. But somehow the assumption has become widespread amongst liberals that, if the candidate does have a subtext rancor, then that candidate will be a collaborator and compromiser. I think that the candidate that is most likely to be a collaborator and compromiser is the one who already behaved that way. I do not thinnk that Obama’s willingness to treat everyone with respect means thhat he will be a whimp once elected. Rather I thinnk it means he will be more effective at fighting for our values.
I meant “does NOT have a subtext of rancor”.
BTW when Obama won in Iowas I emailed to all my friends new lyrics to “Hosana” from Jesus Christ, Superstar: “Oh Bama, Oh Bama, Bama Bama, Oh, Bama Oh,Bama, Oh Bama!”
It is more likely to be accomplished by someone who is post partisan–able to express our values, and promote our values without indulging in anger.
I agree with you there. For most people I know who are tired of the rancorous right-wing partisanship of Bush, rancorous left-wing partisanship is not what they’re shopping for as a replacement.
BTW I don’t think that Hillary herself is a polarizing figure. I think the the righht polarized the discourse and blamed her for it and continues to hate her rather than face up to there own hyperparisanship.
However, I completely disagree with this. The Clintons, and Hillary in particular, were in my opinion just as much to blame for the hyperpartisanship of the 90’s. You may agree with her that there was a “vast right wing conspiracy” after Bill, but most moderates, and certainly most conservatives, would characterize that as a bit over-the-top, to say the least.
In any case, the fact that a lot of conservatives are saying that a Hillary nomination is the magic tonic that could motivate donors, galvanize voters, and heal the rifts in the GOP coalition seems to me pretty strong evidence that she really is polarizing. Personally speaking, while I think a lot of the hatred for her from the right is absurd, Hillary (and, for that matter, Edwards) rub me the wrong way in a way Obama emphatically does not.
Redstocking,
Apologies if this is seen as advertising, but I wanted to point you (and anyone else interested in an interesting RFK anecdote) to this post at TiO. The RFK anecdote is buried in the middle, but I think it is striking because it certainly seems that candidates and potential candidates had much much more space back then to develop their positions. I don’t want to turn this into holding up one candidate over another, just to observe that we may be holding them all to demands that not only hurt them, but hurt us in the end.
“and to All The King’s Men more generally (the book, not the wretched movie)”
You don’t like Broderick Crawford?
“Having heard President Lincoln’s second Inaugural address yesterday, I confess a swelling of my heart and indeed even my soul upon witnessing such eloquence. Yet upon waking this morning, I found myself unsettled with concern that perhaps our President’s stirring rhetoric is but beauty without substance, a precious vase with wilting flowers. I mean really, he could have used a bit more policy, right?”
— Yankee Doodle Danny, America’s first blogger
Sheesh, relax! Sometimes the ability to communicate powerfully actually is related to the ability to lead. Remember that you’ve heard plenty of powerful speakers in the past, but somehow this one is gaining your trust. Why is that?
I can’t answer for you, but I can say that for me he’s actually going beyond mere empty rhetoric (and frankly going beyond policy as well) into something we haven’t had in the Democratic party: an actual political philosophy. His 2004 Democratic Convention keynote had what is to me the cornerstone of this party’s purpose:
“Now, don’t get me wrong, the people I meet in small towns and big cities and diners and office parks, they don’t expect government to solves all of their problems. They know they have to work hard to get a head. And they want to.
…people don’t expect government to solve all their problems. But they sense, deep in their bones, that with just a slight change in priorities, we can make sure that every child in America has a decent shot at life and that the doors of opportunity remain open to all. They know we can do better. And they want that choice.”
When conservatives insist that small government works better and that large government creates a dependence upon the state that limits people’s potential, it resonates with the American ideals of independence and ambition. Obama’s speech was the first time I had ever heard what I consider to be distilled and persuasive argument in favor of Democratic Party principles.
Frankly, the mere fact that he understands this deeply enough to communicate it with such clarity to a national audience is as much evidence as any policy wonkery that he’ll actually be able to put this philosophy into practice. And judging by the results of his time in Chicago, there’s plenty of evidence that he actually can guide disagreeing parties into the sort of temporary alliances that allow things to actually get done in our political system.
Pubby, darling, when I read this post, I can’t help but think you’re not just now getting around to questioning Obama objectively for the first time in four years of watching him, you’re way too smart and far too level headed for that. No, it’s not a sudden burst of perspective but rather the first stages of separation anxiety. You’re prepping yourself psychologically for Obama’s defeat. Don’t worry buddy, I’m right there with you. I freaked the hell out the other night until I reminded myself that Hillary Clinton is a fine candidate, one that I have no problem supporting wholeheartedly should she get the nomination. But that’s still a long way off and until then I’m still going to support the candidate whose vision for this party and this country I most agree with.
yeah, vote for hillary because matthews is a fuckstain. that’ll show him!
publius, this seems unlike you. Are you really saying that when a candidate provides you with “a higher purpose, a sense of connectedness and community,” that counts against them? The terms of your argument dictate that, given two candidates with identical policies, you would prefer to vote for the one whom you found less inspiring.
What you’re really expressing, I think, is a — dare I say? — almost religious faith in your own ability as a rational, secular progressive to divine the true policies of a candidate. And there’s the rub: do you really think that you — and the electorate — can really find the “truth” of any candidate’s policies based on their speeches, or even their policy proposals?
But bracketing the question of how to assess the substantiveness of Obama and Clinton’s policies, you’re also glossing at least two other important things:
(1) Even if you can divine the truth of Obama and Clinton’s policies, is that the proper barometer for selecting a candidate? You’ve made some eloquent arguments in the past about the importance of the median voter, yet here you’re arguing exclusively from the perspective of an astute liberal blogger. Unless every member of the electorate can and does make this decision with the same proficiency as you (again, assuming that you can), this doesn’t translate into a political maxim.
(2) Why isn’t a candidate’s ability to inspire an explicit part of your calculus? There’s clearly political currency there, but somehow you’re casting it as a negative. To the extent you are a rational, secular, issues-based voter, why isn’t a candidate’s ability to mesmerize even you actually a point in their favor?
I can think of a number of traits — many of which, again, you’ve emphasized in the past — that might be weighed along with assessments of policy, e.g.: potential advisors, cabinet, appointments; accessibility by lobbyists; political background; the degree to which the candidate will even see themselves as bound by their policy statements.
Isn’t your argument tantamount to rejecting a candidate based on your own fallibility? That seems a bit short-sighted. I’m afraid I agree with Mark: this rationale seems like insurance against disappointment — it’s a political calculus that’s based solely on personal risk-aversion.
Worse: not only are you rejecting a candidate based on their potential downside (in which case there’s a good argument against Hillary, too), but in fact because of a bigger upside. You’re reducing the spread rather than maximizing your gains.
That might make sense for you personally, but how is it a strategic choice?
When I compare my life with that of my parents, they were far more rooted in the communiity. Raising six kids and sending them to Catholic schools on one middle-class income, they had to make their own entertainment.We didn’t get a TV until I was 14; we got a decent turntable about the same
time. The radio was our main entertainment source. I recall the thrill of my own radio as a birthday present; I could listen to Dodger games whenever I wanted. Movies were a luxury; we ate out about three times year. We entertained ourselves by visiting family and friends. All of my 45 first cousins were an easy drive away. There were gangs of kids in the neighborhood to play with.
Card playing was the way adults socialized. Almost every adult was competent at cards, and many were excellent bridge players. My parents played bridge with people in the neighborhood at least once a week. Every home had a card table.People almost always had a deck in their bag or their pocket if you had to wile away time. Periodically my family discovers there is no cheaper or more varied form of almost free entertainment.
My mom and dad were tremendously involvedly in the social action outreach with the local Catholic Church. My dad was head of the St. Vincent de Paul Society, which ministered to poor struggling families in the parish. He visited the local nursing home every Sunday without fail. They visited parish families in need once a week. Some evenings he was called out to visit a family experiencing a sudden emergency. When they moved to Long Island in 1947, our town lacked a church. They and their friends raised the money to build a church, a convent for the nuns, a rectory for the priest, a grade school for 800 kids. That represented tremendous dedication to fundraising for a working class community.
The local library was in a former mission church run by volunteers for the first ten years.I had been infected by my parents’ community spirit. When the library was vandalized when I was 9, my best friend and I volunteered two times a week to sort it out. I remember the chief volunteer struggling to explain to us the difference between fiction and nonfiction.
I can think of a number of traits — many of which, again, you’ve emphasized in the past — that might be weighed along with assessments of policy, e.g.: potential advisors, cabinet, appointments; accessibility by lobbyists; political background; the degree to which the candidate will even see themselves as bound by their policy statements.
Out of curiosity, are any of these things, from a progressive perspective, points in Hillary’s favor vis-a-vis Obama? I mean, Hillary’s foreign policy team consists of a who’s who of liberal cheerleaders for the Iraq War, Obama’s on record as saying he would appoint talented people from the Clinton administration (i.e., the same people Hillary would appoint), and Hillary as the establishment candidate with the long list of corporate connections seems far more wired to what liberals would consider odious lobbyists.
The problem with all three leading Democratic candidates is that they are all “centrists” (i.e. secular conservatives). None of them supports single-payer healthcare. None supports immediate withdrawal from Iraq. All continue to support bloated military budgets. On the issues they are very similar to one another, which is one of the reasons that the debate among their supporters tends to be about things other than their stance on issues.
As for the substance of publius’s post: I think there’s nothing at all wrong with charismatic candidates and rhetoric that moves voters. The problem with Huey Long wasn’t his rhetorical skill, but what he actually did and stood for (though to be fair to Huey Long, he did some good things amid the corruption). For me the problem with Obama is that I’d want to see his rhetoric and charisma put in the service of a much more progressive set of policies than we’re getting from him (or Clinton or Edwards). Unfortunately the leading progressive Democratic candidate, Dennis Kucinich, has the charisma of a wet sock. And that “unfortunately” is meant in all seriousness.
On a side note: if you liked the film of The Last King of Scotland read the novel, which is even better (the film substantially changes the book so as to make the protagonist an entirely sympathetic figure by the end of the story).
Obama’s ability to fire up young people, involving them in politics and policy, is the most attractive and important quality about him. I hope the first woman president will have the same effect on young women, but I am less sure. My passionate devotion to John F. Kennedy from age 11 set into motion education, thinking, convictions and activism that still reverberate today. I decided to major in political science although I had always conceived of myself as an English major. Three of my daughters graduated with degrees in political science; all 3 are involved in politics and international relations professionally.
Bear in mind the available alternatives play a role in that. I like Edwards, but the minute he declared he’s only doing public financing, he basically dropped out of the race. Then we have Hillary, the candidate who seems to feel most entitled, and most represent the establishment in Washington. I simply refuse to vote for a dynastic candidate– the twenty-second amendment exists to protect against the dominance that can be created by a presidential electoral machine, and Clinton’s candidacy is an end-run around it. So who am I left with?
Yeah, might as well get excited about it.
Policy doesn’t fit into 24-7 sound-bite driven news coverage. Onama has a LOT of policy — what he’s proposed, and what he’s worked for, and what he’s obtained.
I’d never view Obama in a religious light because he’s made some pretty silly blunders (the Black Gay Tour was a major debacle). But he’s got a lot going for him besides surface, and it seems not that hard to find it.
While Obama’s rhetoric soars over and above his particular policies, many of which I would alter, Obama’s rhetorical style is itself a policy, not a form of religious experience.
Obama speaks Republicanesque — in the best sense of Dirksen, Baker, and Reagan — by using universal quantification, abstractions of liberal principles, and with aspirations of a unified journey to resolve the national impasse, inertia, and special-interests. After sixteen years of extremely divisive and diversionary government, Obama’s rhetoric taps into the “yes, we can” go over, around, and beyond the roadblocks of pettiness, silliness, warmongering, fearmongering, sexism, racism, homophobia, etc.
Democratic orators have a penchant for speaking to “constituencies,” which is Double-Demo Talk for a patchwork federation of disenfranchised minorities seeking clout by coalitions with few common interests, in addition to the entrenched special-interests, yearning to hear they’ll be retaining their part of the Dole.
Obama soars above, over, and beyond the old oratory — a.k.a., “pandering,” — and every listener hears him/herself as integral of the whole, not the piecemeal of constituent to assume power over the “other” hegemons.
Thus, Obama’s rhetoric is inspirational, not religious. It is invigorating, not proselytizing, it is unifying, not dividing, it speaks to a PEOPLE, the people who still believe in “we the people,” despite numerous reasons to distrust it.
Clinton’s contrast is that “it’s all about Hiliary,” “her voice,” “her experience,” “her deservedness, if not entitlement,” of her “sex,” while Obama is silent about his sex or his race or his religious dogmas.
The old “constituency” federation, on which Clinton preys, the me-too, the shared-power, the coalition that cannot govern, because Clinton cannot unite, may prevail in this race, she may even be elected, but we all KNOW she will not, indeed cannot, lead, govern, or succeed. She has played the Victim of her own creation (aided by a less than honest, philanderer).
Hilary is the exemplar of entitlement by means other than merit. She appeals to the Victimhood and to all victims, real or imagined. Victims want revenge, settlement of accounts, power to show who is the boss. But just as she was first of the Democrats to embark blindly on Bush’s Invasion and Occupation and the last Democrat to reverse course, her credentials of “experience” became a liability — as have OUR experience with self-ambitious, self-serving Clintons from Arkansas. We recall Hilary as the Catalyst for Republican Control of Congress, as the slighted martyr who stood by her philandering husband, to prove she lacks judgment — again, again, and again.
Hilary’s mantra of “experience” illustrates the visceral distaste for her as a person, because experience has not taught her to rise above her self-interested ambitions. Granted, many of us thrill that women, blacks, and perhaps even gays and lesbians can aspire to leadership, and see in Hilary an aspiration to personal fulfillment at others’ expense.
The contrast between Hilary and Obama, her safe and secure script in controlled environments, his zestful and bold “can do together,” and we recall the character and inspiration of one Abraham Lincoln in Obama, and Clinton, II: The Saga of Ambition in the other.
They aren’t about schools and bridges, because we don’t lack those – we’ve been lucky on that front.
Really?
Seriously – I applaud you for this. Not many people would pause and look a little deeper like this.
He is kind of growing on me. Katherine and Hilzoy keep telling me to give him a closer look. But every time I try to find the meat, it’s “Where’s the beef?” There doesn’t seem to be much there there.
John Cole expressed similar thoughts and has been getting raked over the coals for it.
If we look at all the candidates, on either side, and ask “where’s the beef?” we would have difficulty finding things. Specially if we define beef as being something we specifically want to see in exactly the way we want to see it.
I favor Obama. I will campaign hard for whomever is nominated on the Democratic side. I think that with either Clinton or Edwards, there is a feeling on my part that they would be an improvement over the current administration or anything the republicans have to offer and may even do some good. With Obama, I see, based upon his record, the opportunity for a lot of good to be done.
Policy wise, there is not a lot of difference between Obama and the other two, but where there is, particularly foreign policy, which is the main role of the Presidency, I definitely fall into Obama’s camp. And yes, all of them have been pretty clear about there policies.
But having a policy, without having the ability to attract and influence people to work to put policy into action is pretty much meaningless. I think Obama has that ability.
Pubilus,
I am dismayed and almost offended by your post. You manage to hype the “there’s no ‘substance’ there” meme about Obama and insult the intelligence of his supporters at the same time all while claiming to be a supporter. A more interesting post would have explored the question of substance. Is it the failure to understand policy? Is it the failure to discuss policy positions in detail? Neither is true about Obama. As noted by Krugman’s criticism, Obama has substantial policy positions that differ from those of Clinton and Edwards in small ways but not in level of detail.
I will confess that my preferred candidate (Gore) is not in the race. I have donated to several Dem candidates (and to Ron Paul) but not to the Clinton campaign. I have no doubt that Clinton is bright and that the Restoration Team has a plan for Day One. Maybe that is the “substance” you’re looking for. I fear, however, that, as Clinton has demonstrated in her role as Senator, she will not use any of her “substance” to challenge the status quo. She has strength but no courage. From the Iraq War Resolution to the Patriot Act to Bankruptcy Reform to Kyl-Lieberman to SCOTUS appointments to Telecom Amnesty, she has disappointed me (and I voted for her twice). Maybe that’s smart politics, but I’ve had enough.
I’ve donated to the Obama campaign because he hasn’t disappointed me (yet!). I’ve donated because he presents an opportunity to significantly increase the majority in the House and strengthen the Senate Majority by making the 2008 election an election about change and presenting a stark message about the types of politics we want as a nation. Whether she wants it to or not, Clinton’s candidacy will be about whether you love Bill enough or hate Hillary enough. The rest of the progressive agenda gets abandoned.
Finally, don’t underestimate the value of image. As better commentators have noted, this Democracy thing is a lot about how people “feel.” IMHO, GWB is going to finish eight years of a largely successful Presidency (and I use the term cynically, not sarcastically — he’s gotten just about everything he and his sponsors wanted with the major exception of dismantling Social Security)and all he EVER did was project an image. I agree with the notion that the country would be better off with an electorate that debated policy but that’s not where we live (Hell, that ain’t even Manhattan). So image matters. The fact that Obama projects an image that crosses party lines, energizes younger voters and, at the same time, puts forth progressive policy proposals and seems (to me) to understand them makes him as substantive in my eyes as any of the other Dem candidates in this race (and certainly places him in favorable comparison to several prior candidates in years past).
Forgive me, I have a slight allergic reaction here…
As a European I have a perception of American presidents as being very much creatures of image and much less so vehicles of substance. Not that it is any of my business but it seems as if your country could do with someone who is less concerned with launching grand enterprises and proving things to his father and more someone who tidies up the messes already created.
John Cole expressed similar thoughts and has been getting raked over the coals for it.
more accurately, John Cole approvingly quoted Karl Rove making those points. they are, in fact, GOP talking points. and i’m sure RedState is utterly thrilled to see them here.
Obama has plenty of wonky proposals – go look at his web site. yet, if he was enumerating his positions iterating through his 10-point plans, people would deride him for being a boring technocrat like Gore or Kerry.
Sorry, I’m not seeing it and I’ve looked. I have read his website. There is a lot of feel good stuff there – but little beef.
Read through all his issue statements. Obama will … do something this special interest group will really like … with little or no mention about how he is going to pay for it.
Tally up all the Obama will… statements there. I mean tally the dollars. Billions and billions per year? Then look for how he will pay for it all. There are some hints. Employers who don’t offer health insurance will have to pay into a federal plan. Etc. But a lot of it is: You want a pony? Well I’ll just legislate that you get one! What color do you want?
His “Fiscal” issues page has some beef – but it’s the shortest page on his website. Every other page is full of ponies. The page on how he pays for it all sounds good, I agree with every single bullet point. But even if he manages to do every thing he says it won’t add up to 10% of what he promises to spend on the other pages.
Now I’m not trying to single him out on this – they’re all the same. I’m just disagreeing that he is any different.
FWIW – there is a pretty fair chance I’ll vote for him if he is the candidate. If it’s HRC I’ll sit this one out.
Now I’m not trying to single him out on this – they’re all the same. I’m just disagreeing that he is any different.
if he’s no worse, then why on earth is he the one getting attacked for not having substance?
could it be because his eloquence is his biggest asset, and therefore, Rovishly, it needs to be attacked ? sure, from the GOP. but why would Dems play that way ?
FWIW – there is a pretty fair chance I’ll vote for him if he is the candidate. If it’s HRC I’ll sit this one out.
you and all the other people needed to ensure we don’t have a president McCain in 2009, i’m sure. i just can’t believe people are choosing the divisive HRC over the inspiring OHB. policy-wise they are so close, but in terms of being able to attract non-hard-core Dems, they are polar opposites.
Eric Martin is just flat wrong about the lack of substance. I’m not going to lay out all the substance for him–he’s a grown up and can do it for himself if he ever gets over his issues with Obama’s style.
The most important point I thinnk is this: are we picking a candidate that Eric Martin will vote for, or are we picking a candidate that a majority of Americans will vote for?
Given that all of thhe candidates are at least in the same catagory as pretty good, what possible values does it have for us to quibble over their differences?
I sometime think that Democrats have a death wish. Given a charismatic, highly electable candidate who is good enough on the issues, instaed of being glad we get all this carping.
Every time young people get excited about a candidate they pull this crap: “look, look, it’s a cult!” Every time. Every time, we fall for it.
Realize one thing: a lot of the opposition to Obama is motivated AT LEAST AS MUCH by a hostile emotional reaction to his rhetoric, as support is by a positive reaction.
I’m going to rant a bit about fiscal conservatism. First of all those words from the mouth of a Republican politician are a lie. The Congressional Repulicans spent years at Monday morning meetinngs with Norquist listeninng to hhis ideas about how to undo the New Deal by throwing limitless amounts of money at special innterests while cutting taxes in order to deliberately bankrupt the nation. A party that tolerates,no, more than tolerates–actively listenns to that sort of thinng–is not fiscally conservative, merely dishonest.
AS Steve says all of them plan to spend lots of money. The diifferece is that the Republicans plann to cut taxes too. All it takes is third grade arthimatic to figure out which party is the least fiscally conservative. At least the Democratic message is predicated on the assumption that we can get something for nothing.
ISN’T ISN’T predicated! Shheesh. NNeed more coffe.
As far as “where’s the beef”:
a lot of it is just unfair. His policy speeches are out there & comparable to Clinton’s. His website describes policy at a similar level. They are both raising hopes about getting things accomplished–it may not be possible to do it. The difference seems to me that: (1) his strategy for doing this *could* work & hers definitely definitely won’t. (2) I trust him more than I trust her–he has frequently disappointed me, but she has, as far as I’m concerned, betrayed me. (3) his Senate record & State Senate record & history as a community organizer suggest more commitment to me to the issues I prioritize than her record in the Senate & as first lady.
But some of it is his own doing. The stump speeches are often too gauzy & often too full of process talk. He should know full well that Democrats heearing a lot of vague paeans to bipartisanship & reach for their wallet. He has to take a page from Edwards and talk about the things he wants to change *today* in specfic, compelling language–turn all that rhetorical power to showing us, not telling us, about his commitment to those issues.
if he was enumerating his positions iterating through his 10-point plans, people would deride him for being a boring technocrat like Gore or Kerry.
There is that.
Also, has anyone tried volunteering for his campaign to, e.g., phone bank? It’s an impressive operation. Maybe all the campaigns are this much better organized than I’m used to from 2004, what with the internet & the better fundraising & all, but damn, they really seem to know what they’re doing. It also involves almost no inspirational speeches & many many lectures about the correct pronunciation of “Nev-add-a”
Here’s a question: what has Hillary Clinton specifically, done in the Senate in the last 6 years or in the White House, that should motivate me to vote for her?
Katherine is right about the “showing,not telling.”
Part of the beef against Obama seems to be that he attracts people who some Deomcrats don’t think are as smart or well informed or rational as they ought to be. Of course Obama, when he makes his gauzy speeches is assuming, incorrectly it seems, that Democratic activist listeners are smart enough and well informed enough annd rational enough to find his substance without being shown. So it is ironic that he is being critisized for lack of substance when he is in fact treating the base like smart people who are capable of educating themselves about him.
But yeah, apparently he has to spell it out.
“if he was enumerating his positions iterating through his 10-point plans, people would deride him for being a boring technocrat like Gore or Kerry.”
Yes, and people flatly ignore his policy speeches, but he should weave more policy into his big speeches. You know what though? He is.
hi. i’m something of an obama enthusiast. i’ll vote for him in the primary, and i will vote for him if he gets the nomination. maybe what seems religious *isn’t* really. sometimes a publicly-made statement or assertion is a metaphor built to give a ‘warm, fuzzy’ to people who don’t *understand* metaphor. i once had a prof who said of intellectuals, “they know things, have sensitivity (i.e. *awareness*, not dewy-eyed touchy-feeliness), and understand how things work.” clearly that’s an oversimplification. I would change “understand how things work” to “have the synapses, and flexibility of mind, necessary to *figure out* ‘how things work’ (which may vary); and the very best intellectuals have a huge capacity to learn quickly. that’s the kind of person we need in the white house, and obama is that kind of person. have you read his first book? that thingie he wrote when he hadn’t even been elected to the senate yet? sometimes the most substantial people have the hardest time conveying their substance in tiny sound bites.
*whatever* happens in the end, we need to avoid at all cost electing the kind of despotic two-year-old we have in the white house now.
Inspiration won’t be accomplished with wonkish speeches. Isn’t that what his position papers are for?
Perception is everything, and the more a specific perception is pushed, the more it is believed.
The rhetoric only aspect of Obama is a perception that is increasing, even if it is not based in fact. He does need to realize this and make a bigger push on his policies. He knows his ability to move people and he may be relying too much on that.
The bipartisanship issue is somewhat misleading. First of all, there are a lot of Democrats who want somebody to squash the Republicans and Hillary appeals to those voters. Obama, I think, wants to neutralize those republicans who are currently in major positions, and go to those Republicans, and former republicans, like OCSteve, and engage them in the process.
People who support Hillary sometimes forget how bipartisan and reaching across the aisle Bill was. I really don’t expect her to be much different. She would try to work with the current republican establishment. Obama wants to work with the Republicans who aren’t necessarily part of the current establishment.
other things I dislike:
1) the argument that Obama’s supporters are in some way “inauthentic”–wine track. Too young, too educated, too liberal, too many independents. Bunch of crap, that is. That’s one part of his coalition; he has others; I think you’ll see some of it as we head to other states. An authentic voter is a U.S. citizen over the age of 18. After that, a vote is a vote is a vote.
2) the implication that only Obama’s supporters are motivated by emotional reactions. Oh no, this cuts both ways. It annoys me but it’s part of politics.
“She would try to work with the current republican establishment. Obama wants to work with the Republicans who aren’t necessarily part of the current establishment.”
bingo.
all of them plan to spend lots of money. The diifferece is that the Republicans plann to cut taxes too. All it takes is third grade arthimatic to figure out which party is the least fiscally conservative
Not only that, but our party did the hard work, and took the political hits, to fix this problem once. You see the result.
For the good of the country the Republicans ought to agree that taxes should be set at a responsible level–but of course, they won’t.
This election is not the time to fight this battle–maybe a second-term president can fix the governemnt’s fiscal state again.
First of all, there are a lot of Democrats who want somebody to squash the Republicans and Hillary appeals to those voters.
i’ve been asking for days for somebody to show me what about Hillary makes them think she is that kind of politician. no takers so far.
are there any examples of her going after Republicans for their misdeeds? when has she done anything, besides vote with her party on those rare occasions when they feel like sending a sternly-worded letter, to bring accountability for any of the sins of BushCo? what makes people think she’s the kind of person who’s going to a partisan punisher?
“what makes people think she’s the kind of person who’s going to a partisan punisher?”
because they figure after all the crap Republicans threw at her husband, she must really hate them. & because Obama sounds too nice.
It sure as f*** isn’t based on her husband’s record in office or her Senate record.
Remember, though, only Obama supporters vote based on emotion!
Words, of course, are the most powerful drugs known to mankind. (Rudyard Kipling)
I admit to having a little Obama buzz on. I very much like your self-examination, and have wondered in much the same way as you why my allegiance to Obama is growing. As for the void, I believe neither religion, politics or art can fill it–more drugs. That’s got to come from inside.
My attraction to Obama is almost entirely superficial. I would love to see a person with his name and face leading our country. I also like his style of rhetoric and debate. His sense of humor is ironic, without crossing over into derision. He can defend himself without alienating everyone (Yes, I understand he has surrogates who may do that). When his campaign looked troubled and he was urged to attack, he really did not fundamentally change. He seems willing to use opposition to gain perspective rather than as an opportunity to conquer.
Now I certainly haven’t read all the columns, progressive or conservative, and don’t have the wonkish pedigree of any of you admirably engaged folks, but I’m old enough not to expect perfection, and I’m sure Obama will not be all he’s projecting, but the story his chosen and the words he has used to tell it so far are appealing to me. No one else has gotten close to that.
the implication that only Obama’s supporters are motivated by emotional reactions.
Well that is a big part of it. HRC and Obama can say the exact same things. I outright don’t believe her because of my visceral dislike of the woman. Obama is a great speaker. I enjoy hearing him talk. Even I can feel hope. I know he’ll never be able to do even half of what he claims, but I get the feeling he will honestly try.
I’ll never be on board with all of his policies, but I feel like I can live with most of them. That’s about as good as it gets this time around.
While a Illinois state senator, Obama had spoke against the war in 2002 at small gatherings, Obama moderated his anti-war stance during his 2004 U.S. Senate campaign.
Bill Clinton complained that journalists beguiled by Obama’s charisma had failed to question his claim to have been the only Democratic presidential candidate consistently opposed to the war.
“It is wrong that Senator Obama got to go through 15 debates trumpeting his superior judgment and how he had been against the war,” Clinton said during the rally.
“There’s no difference in your voting record, and Hillary’s, ever since,” Clinton said. “Give me a break. This whole thing is the biggest fairy tale I’ve ever seen.”
Somebody not bowing before Obama? Call the “Spanish Inquisition”…or better yet, let’s get the wine cheese set to do some jaw jacking.
Bill Clinton is basically, lying. Or at least, using a partial out of context quote from Obama to actively mislead voters.
More Kool-Aid Katherine…
You could easily dispute Bill by calling up the two senators voting records…
But why should you? Sipping the new brand of Jim “Obama” Jones Kool-aid is so much easier isn’t it?
Why do I find Obama supporters remind me so much of the lazy intellectuals of the late sixties and early seventies?
Cleek, I didn’t say Hillary would squash those Republicans. In fact, I said she would work with them. I am saying she appeals to those voters who, from an emotional base, think she would because, as Katherine said, she has been on the hit list, as has Bill, and therefore, in their minds, would want to get even.
And also because of the “unity” talk Obama puts out there. They don’t realize who he wants to work with.
Edwards would seem to me to be the next logical choice (and, in fact, if we were judging these things on policy alone, he’d likely be the first choice), but his campaign doesn’t seem to be going anywhere.vague enough…
In politics, detachment and spiritual uplift (like Obama is offering) tend to go together, unfortunately. It’s kind of like the relationship of extremely romantic love and selfishness to each other – they must be two sides of the same coin. Give me Edwardsian specificity and rightous anger and lack of irony. That said, I like Obama and have no problem supporting him. I’m not drinking anybody’s koolaid, though.
This is the key insight, AFAIC: Politics does not give meaning to life. The idea that it does is a very right-wing one (see Schmidt, Strauss, et. al.). Politics is a means to an end, it facillitates living one’s life, but it isn’t life itself. If we want to *really* transform our politics, this HAS to be borne in mind.
(sorry i screwed up my html tag. The first paragraph is a quote, the rest is my comment).
trying to fix html.
Here is the most salient difference between Clinton & Obama’s records. Clinton voted for the war. She voted against the Levin amendment that was the best chance to prevent the war. Obama, while not in the Senate at the time, was publicly opposed to the war. I
Hillary is seen as the “crush Republicans” candidate, because they hate her so much. Just her election would be a poke in the eye to the Republican Media Machine and the Republicans in power now.
That’s still not reason enough for me to vote for her. Especially since she’s shown no signs of being interested in fighting things, since she went along to get along with Bush, and still seems to think the Iraq war vote was the right decision. But she talks as the “establishment” candidate, best situated and experienced to deal with The Way Things Are, which means dealing with a corrupt Republican establishment that has proven itself year after pitiful year, to negotiate only in bad faith. Edwards wants to fight them, and Obama wants to marginalize them and reach out to Republicans who aren’t insane and corrupt.
I don’t have much faith in the any sort of “Moderate Republican” getting into the Republican power structure, so I lean more Edwards’ way, but either of those strategies is better than trying to work and compromise with people who’ve been proven routinely to deal in bad faith.
From Ezra:
To: Obama’s Wine & Cheese Set
“California Nurses Association…just released a new radio ad that plays an extended clip of Barack Obama arguing against mandates. Juggles the names around a bit, make the opening line say “this ad paid for by the Republican National Committee,” and I think you have a pretty good idea of what one of the ads will look like during the next major health reform fight…This is why so many of us raged against Obama’s…decision to launch an assault on the very idea of the individual mandate was a major problem. It’s overwhelmingly likely that the next incarnation of universal health care will be based around an individual mandate. And when that happens, it’s overwhelmingly likely that the airwaves will be blanketed with Barack Obama’s arguments against it…
…Obama did what he felt he needed to do to…in doing, he assured that it will be his clips that opponents of reform replay as they try and kill universal health care next time.”
Go Read!
Trying to raise feminist issues in the comments of OW is terribly frustrating and makes it impossible to have an intelligible thread. You need to invite a feminist to be a regular contributor, at least for the primary campaign. The always excellent Echidne of the Snakes raises questions OW should be wrestling with. I haven’t yet mastered links, but the rest of this comment is Echidne’s, who should be required daily reading for all of you.
“Even I assumed that most opposition to Hillary Clinton was personal, not sexist, until the way the so-called “tears” incident was treated in the media and on the Internet. Hillary-the-automatic-robot turned in one minute into Hillary-the-too-emotional-woman, and there was much jubilation over this in the media. Now we can get rid of that woman. She is scheming and manipulating and no male politician has ever schemed and manipulated.
It’s not clear to me what percentage of Hillary-hatred is based on her personal history or on political manipulation by those who prefer another candidate (yes, manipulation is quite common in politics) and what percentage is based on a general fear and loathing of women in power. But the latter percentage looks to me to be much higher than I anticipated.
And that is why it is important to dig deeper into this whole sordid spectacle. The problem is not just that Hillary is bombed with sexist insults and that some of those bombs end up exploding in the living-rooms of American women. The problem is the reason for these sexist insults, and the reason is not just to have some fun teasing women, but to keep women out of certain parts of the power structure.
Why the wish to keep women out? There are both psychological reasons, starting from that Biblical verse of man being the head of woman, continuing into that whole murky psychology of masculinity and what it means for a man to take orders from a woman (emasculation! eek!) and into a similarly murky psychology of femininity and the needs (inculcated?) to have a man take care of the important business, and cultural/historical reasons, from the fear of the unknown (we have never had a woman president) to the acknowledgment that this is the planet of the guys and as long as other guys won’t respect a woman, electing one isn’t going to help in running the business of politics, either domestically or internationally.”
I think Bill can make a fair case, assuming “fairy tale” means the claim that Obama has straightforwardly opposed the war.
I’m pretty unhappy about the attendant claims that the Clintons are using racist attacks.
Redstocking,
You’ve brought up a great point…we don’t need to look at policy anymore!
Anybody that does not vote for Hillary is a Misogynist and anybody that doesn’t vote Obama is Racist.
Which means Democrats are all:
1] Racist [vote for Hillary]
2] Misogynist [vote for Obama]
3] All of the above [vote for edwards]
Yep, that’s how we wound up with Clarence Thomas on the court.
The ability to inspire is directly connected to the ability to get things done. You either use that or you use fear.
When people express this pundit-driven reservation about Obama, I wonder what the alternative is. Do you really think that in reality, playing uber-wonk is the way to get healthcare reform passed? If you want details, take a look at Hillary’s last healthcare proposal. Are we, by implication, supposed to believe that Hillary’s mastery of policy details is going to make the difference this time?
Of course not. Organizing and building coalitions are the skills you need here, and Obama has those in his bones. The reason you respond to him is he “gets” what it takes to make collective action happen. You might be getting that at a subconscious level.
And if the parts of your brain devoted to religious feeling are getting stimulated in the process, well I’d leave it at that. You can’t do much about hard-wired biology, and the reason-based argument for Obama is perfectly solid.
rf: It is not a fair case & it’s not racist; it’s plain old dirty campaigning. Fairly run-of-the-mill dirty campaigning mind, the exact same crap Kerry pulled on Dean in 2004. Have you looked up the quotes?
I always think, when I distrust a particular impulse, that I need to think hard about how much of it is spin from others, and how much the person him-or herself is responsible for it. When I do this with Obama, I find a couple of things. One is that the idea that he has no substance is just flatly wrong, for reasons I outlined a while back. (I mean, having originally been attracted to Obama for utterly wonky reasons, I find myself immune to the idea that he has no substance.)
What might be true is that he has not put policy front and center in his speeches. On this, I honestly don’t know. On the one hand, I have read a bunch of his major policy speeches, and found them quite substantive, so it can’t be that he just doesn’t talk policy, period. But I have not listened to a lot of his stump speeches recently, so for all I know he might be less substantive there.
That said, I find I honestly don’t care. I think that the content of one’s stump speeches has to be a matter of strategy. If his stump speeches work, fine; if not, not. But what matters to me is: is there actual policy meat here? For my part, I think there is.
It also matters to me what uplifting and idealistic vision a candidate is proposing. Here I find that Obama’s is actually quite good. For one thing, my sense of the speeches is that they have very little to do with him. My take is that he wants to find a way to regain the kind of sense people had in, say, the early 60s, that of course we should believe that we ought to work together for the good of the country, and of course we should try to tackle serious problems in a serious way. I don’t think he thinks he can do this through uplifting speeches alone (see earlier comments.) But inspiration has to be a part of it.
I also suspects that he thinks, not particularly originally: if only we could get people — not Dem. and GOP operatives, but ordinary citizens — to look past partisan identification, suspicion of one another, etc., we might find that there was a lot more consensus on policy than we might think. A whole lot of people, for instance, think we should be doing more to make health insurance more affordable, or to fight global warming. Some of them, however, will oppose solutions to these problems from one or another party because they completely distrust people from that party. (E.g., people who can easily be persuaded that even though they want something to be done about health insurance, any proposal advanced by actual Democrats is of necessity an attempt to impose nanny-state-like, budget-busting, anti-freedom statism on everyone.)
If, in fact, there’s a decent amount of consensus among ordinary people on what needs to happen, but this fact is being obscured by partisan distrust, then it makes total sense to try to defuse that distrust, in order to get to the solutions most people actually support. My sense is that that’s part of what Obama is doing.
That said, there are things about him I wish were different. I wish he had done a lot more on civil liberties, for instance. But, again, having been led to him by my wonky nature, I am not particularly inclined to suspect that I have just been seduced by lofty rhetoric. And personally, I rather like lofty rhetoric, when someone has earned the right to use it, and when it’s backed up by substance.
First, publius, I applaud you for writing this post. The only quality a great thinker must have: the ability to turn around that accusing finger that for all of us is so easy to point at others, and direct it at ourselves.
I agree with many others above: I think saying Obama has no substance is a flawed argument. All of his policies are very clear, and generally very well thought out (as I think I remember Hilzoy pointing out, he has people like Samantha Power advising him).
But being charismatic, so long as there is substance as well, it certainly a good thing.
I do understand the worry about the potential of Obama worshipers. I don’t think this will happen. As far as you yourself are concerned, the mere fact that you have written this post should ease your mind somewhat. I think the time to get worried is if people stop looking critically at Obama just because he is so inspirational. That would be a sad day, but I don’t think it will happen.
Isn’t it great that the media likes Obama? If only they felt the same way about Edwards we could be having conversations that really could make changes in our lives.
s brennan: while I’m sure Redstocking can speak for herself, I didn’t at all see what you saw in her comment. For starters, the passage from Echidne that R. cites is not about anyone who votes against Hillary; it’s about people who hate Hillary. There’s a difference.
Redstocking: quick and dirty way to master links:
(a) copy this and keep it in a scratch pad, or some other convenient place:
text
(b) When needed, paste it in, and then replace “link” with the link, and “text” with the text you want to appear.
I think that should work.
Steve C, Hizroy, DL
It’s not he “audacity to hope” BS that bugs me as much as Obama’s use of RNC talking points [see post above].
If you’re that right wing in the primary, how much farther to the right do plan to move?
Any further to the right and Obama won’t be “working with Republicans” he’ll be one of them.
Heck, Obama is the number 2 man for Healthcare Corp contributions [both parties] and number 1 for Finaincial Corp contributions [both parties].
OK, I was afraid of that. Redstocking: instead of step (a), do this:
Go to this page. Copy into scratch pad the thingo in the first section, “Creating A Hypertext Link”, that begins:
S. Brennan wrote:
You’ve brought up a great point…we don’t need to look at policy anymore!
Anybody that does not vote for Hillary is a Misogynist and anybody that doesn’t vote Obama is Racist.
I hope you are baiting me and realize I wasn’t saying that at all. (Someone please please email me directions for linking. I know basic html.) Many feminists support Obama.
But all progressives need to wrestle with the questions posed by Melissa McEwan at Shakesville: “Fighting Sexism Is Meant to Be a Progressive value.” (Add Shakesville to your Google Reader as well as Echidne of the Snakes.) )I having great difficulty convincing Obama and Edward supporters why their candidates need to make McEwan’s point. I am baffled how people think a stirring Obama speech on sexist bigotry would be interpreted as support of Hillary. Instead his advisor Jackson seems to be competing with Chris Matthews for woman-hater of the zeitgeist.
People don’t seem open to trying to understand the feminist point of view. The left has dropped the ball on this.
“You need to invite a feminist to be a regular contributor, at least for the primary campaign.”
Hilzoy and Katherine are what, exactly?
On the substance, this discussion boils down largely to opinion versus opinion, and most of my opinions have already been voiced. I’m entirely on the side of favoring inspirational politicians as vitally necessary, and can’t think of a politician who has had a more substantive set of policies in the past.
Which former candidates of the past thirty-two years are people holding up as the exemplars of “more policy pronouncements ten months before the elections,” can someone answer for me? Who can name, say, six?
Four?
Three?
Not that this will be apt to persuade anybody. But I’m curious who all these vastly more substantive candidates, who set the average bar, have been. I assume that to criticize Obama in this regard, you have to have in mind some of the candidates you feel he looks bad in comparison to, so naming them should be no problem.
Anyway, the first order of business is to find two or three folks on the right/conservative/libertarian side for the site, since right now there are none left, which completely destroys the entire raison d’etre of ObWi.
Absent that, there’s no reason not to just have a Hilzoy blog and a publius blog.
Which, with all due respect, isn’t why we came here. At least, those of us who were here when the blog had a point and a purpose and a mission.
(I’d follow any Hilzoy blog avidly, but I’d hate to see ObWi not become ObWi again.)
Cleek, I didn’t say Hillary would squash those Republicans.
oh, i know. didn’t mean to imply you did. was just riffing off what you said.
s brennan, not so. Feminism is anyway not a unity (any more than any other ‘ism’ is), but I will speak for ‘it’ anyway: a feminist can say precisely what redstocking did yet not vote for Clinton.
FYI you got Clarence Thomas because Bush said if he wasn’t confirmed, he would not nominate another black justice. And the NAACP and the Urban League opposed Thomas’s nomination.
Echoing hilzoy: campaigns are all about rhetoric, & the knocks against Obama are at least as much about rhetoric as about substance.
If you compare their records in elected office (& throw in Clintons’ years of first lady-ing), who’s the most reliably progressive candidate? Seems to me the answer is Obama. Clinton second. Edwards third.
You might argue: easy to be liberal as an Illinois state senator, harder to be liberal as a North Carolina senator. True enough. And being Senator from New York is somewhere in the middle.
But I’ll tell you, I’m not sure there’s a one thing in Clinton’s or Edwards’ legislative record that inclines me to trust them as much as Obama’s death penalty taped confessions bill in Illinois. And I would not assume that it’s easy to get legislation that can be painted as “soft on crime” passed at the state level. It is certainly not easy to get it passed unanimously & signed into law.
The reason that Edwards is seen as the most progressive candidate isn’t his time in the U.S. Senate. It’s:
(1) his work on poverty issues for his foundation–I can again point to Obama’s civil rights law & community organizing etc. but Edwards’ anti-poverty work is more recent.
(2) they all have pretty bold progressive policy proposals but in general, it’s usually been Edwards to come out with one first; Obama second; Clinton third. His are, in general, a little bolder, but most of all he deserves credit for leading the way.
(3) above all: he is more willing to talk about poverty & economic justice in concrete terms than any national candidate I remember.
Likewise, my problem with Obama in the last couple years–he hasn’t led any bold filibusters in the Senate but God knows Clinton hasn’t either. It has to do with things he has or hasn’t SAID, not things he has or hasn’t DONE. See the concern re the “RNC talking points” thing (though I don’t know about mandates, & Clinton has used RNC talking points about national security often enough. Edwards has run the purest progressive campaign.)
I will note one major exception though, & it’s on a fairly radioactive issue: Obama’s the best on immigration. He’s the one promising to introduce a good reform bill his first year in office. & he’s not afraid to lead rallies in “si, se puede” chants.
Redstocking: “You need to invite a feminist to be a regular contributor”
Are you under the impression that none of the regular contributors *are* feminists? If so, I think this is an inaccurate reading of the situation.
if anyone’s tallying votes: i’m fine with the current ObWi makeup.
and IIRC, Charles still posts here from time to time, as well.
I guess Gary types faster than I…
Gary, if you’re remotely interested, my comments on viewing the first episodes of B5 season 2 are on the More Appropriate Thread thread.
hilzoy,
You say this is implicit argument:
“It’s not clear to me…what percentage is based on a general fear and loathing of women in power.”
I say that’s pretty explicit.
If Hillary was Barbra Jordan I’d vote for her, but not because she was a woman or that she was black, but because I believed in her and her policies.
Unfortunately, her clear voice is no longer with us…the media has decided we must pick between Hillary & Obama, the two biggest recipients of Corporate donations. Republicans in all, but name.
Of course Katherine and Hilzoy are feminists. My generation of feminists won some battles, and brilliant younger women need not make feminism their absolute priority. I was 18 when the Feminine Mystique was published, 23 when the second feminist movement began. Belatedly, I have realized this week that feminism is my make or break issue. Katherine and Hilzoy rightly have different ones. Please struggle to understand this. Men and women can be feminists. My feminism does not make me an inevitable supporter of Hillary, who has not committed herself to a feminist platform. If Obama campaigned as a feminist, spoke out against the sexists attacks against Clinton, and made family issues an essential part of his platform, I would work for him in a heartbeat. I am sure Michelle Obama could write eloquent speeches for him. That he doesn’t seem to be considering a potentially winning strategy indicates how thoroughly feminist and family issues have fallen beneath the political radar. I can’t figure out why.
If, in fact, there’s a decent amount of consensus among ordinary people on what needs to happen, but this fact is being obscured by partisan distrust, then it makes total sense to try to defuse that distrust, in order to get to the solutions most people actually support.
This, to me, is a small but vital misreading of the political situation we actually have. That formulation makes sense if the 2008 election were really a 50/50 one, an even split. But it’s clearly not. Ordinary people seem to already have a rough consensus about what needs to happen, and show an strong inclination to vote for whatever Democrat gets nominated (especially if were to be Edwards). That is what bothers me about the whole ‘hope’ message. Hope is for supplicants. A political transformation worth having is one in which people decide that the government is supposed to work for them, that they *own* the government. We shouldn’t be supplicants, but citizens, taking back what’s ours. This is not only true, but also very good politics (remember ‘Wrong and strong beats right and weak’?). That is Edwards’ rhetoric, and he has consistently done better against every Republican than every other Democrat in poll after poll of ‘ordinary people’. Since it looks like we aren’t going to nominate him (for frivolous reasons, IMO), I hope the other two will continue to appropriate his rhetoric, as they have been doing for a year.
The wind is at our backs, politically. To be timid and conciliatory when there is a rhetorical vacuum on the other side is just…well, weird. The Rebublicans have needed a spanking so long, and have never gotten one, that they are now busy spanking *themselves*. And our message is ‘hope’? Wha?
This has been an amazing and invaluable thread. I’ve been going back and forth over who to support in the primary (should Washington’s support still be relevant when our caucuses meet). publius’ post, and the comments to it, have helped to crystallize my more inchoate internal conversations.
I had political heroes when I was young(er). They were either already dead when I learned about them, or failed to win the elections that would have put them in a position to act on their words (Dean, f’r instance). Some of my resistance to Obama is due to that kind of scar tissue: a reluctance to hope again, because it hurt pretty badly the first few times. Some of it, as publius notes, is an automatic self-check for irrational exhuberance (*G*).
To take the Lincoln parallels a little further, the angels of my better nature support Obama.
Maybe it’s time I listened to them.
If Obama was campaigning as a feminist, I would be much happier to vote for him than I am to support Clinton. People would find it much more possible to understand feminist issues if a younger candidate was explicating them. Even as I type, I am struggling whether I should add “a younger male” candidate.
1) Of course Obama has policy positions, fairly in line with other Democrats
2) Republicans have policy positions of their own, many of which are close to opposite of Democratic positions (Iraq, taxes)
3) Obama says he is committed to working with and forming coalitions with Republicans
4) If Obama was working only with Democrats, I could take his platform positions as the policy he would likely promote as President
5) But considering 2) and 3) I have no clue as to what sort of policy positions Obama will actually promote and enact as President. I can only guess as to where and how far he will compromise.
Senator McCain = 100 years in Iraq
Obama = 2 years in Iraq
Compromise = 25 years in Iraq??
If comity is so much below principle on some/all issues that Obama would never compromise principle, I can imagine Republicans feeling betrayed and resisting further cooperation. Looking at the current Republican Senate with all the closure problems (the differences are immense on almost every issue) and knowing the membership won’t be that different, I don’t see how Obama can maintain comity without compromising on at least what I consider core principles.
Going to the people will not frighten Mitch McConnell.
How To Embed A Link.
Here is a handy guide to HTML tags.
You can use “find” to go to “link something.”
Here’s how you link (you can copy this and paste it as necessary, if you can’t remember):
Put words as necessary between > < Put the actual URL to link to where it says "URL." You're done. It doesn't matter if you capitalize or not. If the above appear properly, see here.
This is what passes political dialogue in the US?
“…the angels of my better nature support Obama…it’s time I listened to them.”
Here’s another view from another continent…
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,527300,00.html
By the way, I am considered a prime time baby boomer and Obama and I were two years apart in high school, now he and his supporters say he is post babyboom
…what utter nonsense.
So now we pass the Kool-Aid from Bush’s babyboom to Obama babyboom.
I have a little bit of an odd point of view about this. I heard that Hillary’s last week of ads focused on Obama’s health-care coverage not being universal. To me, this kind of quibble between them is utterly besides the point. And here’s why: all that really matters is that each one of them signals an intention to commit themselves to broadening health care. Beyond that, the President is not some kind of dictator who can impose his or her policy by fiat. So the small details of the plan are really irrelevant at this point. It is simply never the case that law becomes enacted exactly as it is proposed in these campaign policy papers.
There is something else too I have never understood. Why exactly is it that we can’t have candidate A with candidate Bs plan? Why must devote for candidate be a vote for their plans? I really wish there were some way for voters to clearly signal this intent. It just seems unfortunate to me that there is something that prevents me from having the best of both worlds. I suppose what I really could do is vote for candidate A and then start lobbying on behalf of plan B when that candidate is in office. Take a deep breath and realizing that we can all do this, that this is among our options, relaxes some of the imperative on
A President is one person with a responsibility to manage 300 million people. That one person brings in a tidal wave of people to Washington to help with the cause. I tend to think examining just what kinds of people a President is likely to bring into the administration is a lot more important in assessing whether that person would be a good President than any small details of policy. For example, President Bush ran in ’00 and ’04 on Social Security reform. It turns out now that if you had made a decision between the various Republican candidates based on this issue, you would not have gained any executive action for your vote — little bang for your buck. But, if you thought to yourself, a candidate catering to the Christian right who has limited foreign-policy experience might be likely to bring in Liberty University-types into important positions in the government, you would have hit upon something that really did define the last eight years at the White House.
So I really tend to think about what people a President will bring it and what their managerial style would be. We can glean something about HRCs managerial style. We can glean something about Obama’s managerial style. We certainly could have gleaned something about Bush IIs managerial style. All these things tend to influence the course of an administration much more than these usually half-baked policy proposals, I think, and yet we let candidates kick up dirt by focusing on these small details that are unlikely to ever come to pass, either way.
So that is what I want: less talk of policy, less of what most people consider substantive politics.
“I don’t see how Obama can maintain comity without compromising on at least what I consider core principles.”
Bob, my suggestion — and this goes for anyone interested, of course — is that Obama has an eight-year record in the Illinois State Senate: examine it, and see if overall you feel he compromised too far, within the art of the possible, too many times for your taste, or not.
It’s true that there are issues you won’t be able to get a sense of that way — Illinois doesn’t have a lot of votes on the military, for instance — but it’s still a long record.
And let me be clear that I’m not defending Obama as a Perfect anything. But that he far passes my own minimum — and far more — standards for being enthusiastic about a candidate, I have no doubt — not that other folks’ different standards aren’t entirely valid, he said in liberal fashion.
And I also don’t want to see John Edwards counted out, yet. And, of course, I’ll support and work to elect Senator Clinton if she gets the nomination, as well. She’s my third choice, but in a field of candidates that I find 10,000 times better than all the best qualities of all the Republican candidates combined (which chimera I’d still find pretty horrifying, frankly).
So let me guess?
“…So that is what I want: less talk of policy, less of what most people consider substantive politics.”
You’re voting for Obama?
Or are you undecided, Obama leaning.
This is what passes political dialogue in the US?
Perfect, just perfect
Anyway, the first order of business is to find two or three folks on the right/conservative/libertarian side for the site, since right now there are none left, which completely destroys the entire raison d’etre of ObWi.
Nominations?
The standards are tough; I stand in awe. I could spend a week trying to craft a posting of the quality that hilzoy seems to casually toss off, and fail.
During the first half of my adult life, I tended to think of myself as right-of-center. The things that mattered to me seemed to make me more of a conservative than a liberal: simpler government, balancing the budget, a foreign policy that didn’t mess in other countries’ affairs so much or so violently. In hindsight, I suspect that those attitides were a by-product of my training and career in math/science/engineering: I certainly feel like the large majority of the technologists I’ve known like simple solutions, equations that balance, and not worrying about factors that don’t touch their problems directly.
Here in the second half of my adult life, trying to build a new career in public policy, I feel like the same things still matter to me. But when I look at the political spectrum today, I seem to now be somewhat left-of-center. What it means to be conservative appears to have changed — a lot. You may find “conservative” writers that could fit in at ObWi, but the headline conservatives may not exactly endorse their positions.
Thanks for all the help about links. I promise my comments will get shorter, because I will write the long-winded rant on my own blog and just link to it here.
Here’s some discussion of Obama’s Illinois state senate record:
http://www.motherjones.com/mojoblog/archives/2007/12/6659_yesterday_the_n.html
Obama holds the record for “present votes”…not exactly a profile in courage, but on par with the Hill & Bill years.
Obama’s US Senate record is easy to find and as Bill pointed out, it mirrors Hill’s.
One point about Obama is that in the context of his campaign I find the McClurkin stuff and the “present” votes on choice in the IL senate and “crisis” and anti-mandates and “play chicken with our troops” and Kerry-Feingold and some of the religious stuff harder to write off as expediency.
S Brennan: Read my argument. My point is that what most people consider substantive discussion (wonkishness) is an exercise at this point.
I’m an Obama guy because:
(1) I think he will win, whereas I think people will climb off their deathbeds to make it their last act on our fair planet to cast a vote against HRC (I just remember all that utterly irrational hatred and animosity against her — it has not gone away, it is only hiding)
(2) I think he might bring a more interesting blend of people to Washington, whereas I think HRC will bring the 92-00 government-in-exile back.
(3) I know what triangulation as a political strategy is like. people seem to forget that Clinton sucked the life out of progressive politics, which was dead by ’00. The party had collapsed, all the branches of government had been lost, and it was the result of a Presidential leadership that sought to position itself as a buffer against its own party. Clinton demoralized the Democrats. He was a successful president, but on his own terms, and at the expense of the organization around him. When I talk and think of the Clintons as having a very self-interested and selfish style of politics, it is this which is at the back of my mind. Really, it took George W Bush to bring any semblance of a mobilized Left back to American politics. But if it were not for eight years of Clinton leaving the party in disarray, we would not have had this idiot to contend with. We would not have had this Iraq war.
“is that Obama has an eight-year record in the Illinois State Senate: examine it”
Did the minority in that Illinois session block whatever, 50-75% of all majority legislation? Somehow electing Senators Obama & Durbin I doubt that Illinois is as ideologically divided at median as the US Senate appears to be.
The 35-0 etc is impressive, but I’m sorry, I lack faith enough to believe that Obama will get my Senator Cornyn to sign on to completely progressive legislation with his magic powers. My best guess is that such legislation would be generally progressive with some reactionary & harmful riders & elements.
We have seen that the Republican Senate just doesn’t care if anything gets passed, and will be likely even more obdurate as a smaller minority under a Democratic President. So I don’t see why John Cornyn wouldn’t have the negotiating advantage over Obama in two ways: 1) getting something passed, 2) getting something passed that looks bipartisan. Since John Cornyn, if past predicts future in any way, doesn’t care if anything gets passed, especially legislation that is generally progressive, he will demand a lot.
Finally if Obama goes past Ted Kennedy’s objections to get something passed with John Cornyn, he has alienated his own party.
Bi-partisanship as the governing principle is simpy bad news.
The present votes on the IL Senate on choice were requested by Planned Parenthood & the director of IL Planned Parenthood has recorded an ad to that effect. But look, I really don’t have the time for this. If you want to carefully examine attacks on Clinton for fairness & not Obama that’s your business. I should be either doing work or calling Nevada.
S Brennan: complaints about the candidates are fine – I have no problem with a thread full of comments like your last one of 2:40 – but I wish you wouldn’t keep throwing in the snide insults about Kool-Aid drinkers, wine and cheese, etc. every few posts. It makes you sound like you’re hanging around here just to vent contempt for the other posters.
“The present votes on the IL Senate on choice were requested by Planned Parenthood”
Sure, and there were good pro-choice organizations on the other side. But, well, Obama cast that vote. See “expediency”.
“But look, I really don’t have the time for this.”
Well, ok.
“If you want to carefully examine attacks on Clinton for fairness & not Obama that’s your business.”
If you can’t be bothered to examine attacks on Clinton for fairness, this is hypocritical – but then it’s probably just that you’re too busy. However, accusing me of unfairness because we have substantive differences which you don’t have time to argue – well, that’s unfair.
Hob,
This web site is so transparently PRO-OBAMA all the time [see Pub’s last three post] that you guys have given up even trying to APPEAR fair hence the Kool-Aid verbiage. The Wine and Cheese thing comes from the Obama demographic…I know Obama folks like to think they are above the crowd…I’m just letting you ordinary people think so too.
I been writing on Pub’s post since Legal Fiction…so I know Pub’s thoughts on a lot of subjects and his Obama obsession is troubling.
“I lack faith enough to believe that Obama will get my Senator Cornyn to sign on to completely progressive legislation with his magic powers.”
I agree, but — and I’m not trying to persuade you you are wrong, Bob — since no Democratic President is going to make the crazies stop being crazy — all that can be done is affect them on the margins, — I don’t see that as any kind of reason to vote against Obama. He also can’t turn back the tide, but neither can anyone else.
“Bi-partisanship as the governing principle is simpy bad news.”
I agree, but in my view Obama has plenty of other important principles, and I don’t see sufficient reason to be convinced that bi-partisanship would be an over-riding principle.
That’s the overt fear, clearly; I understand it; I’m not saying it comes from nowhere: Obama’s rhetoric encourages lots of such worry. But my sense of his life is that such worry really isn’t called for.
Admittedly, this is pretty much intuition, and not something absolutely provable, but I simply don’t see, looking at his life, that it seems the most likely hypothesis that he’s just going to be rolled up like a rug by the Republicans.
Neither do I think Clinton or Edwards would be, or would be ineffective; I like Edwards’ confrontationalism very much, although I’d also like as much to be able to see into alternative futures to check how he’d work that as President, just as much as I’d like to know how Clinton or Obama would work out.
I’m sure not trying to discourage anyone from supporting Edwards!
But I’m moderately to mildly optimistic in all cases.
In the end, all any of can do is go with our own opinion and reasons and feelings, of course.
eermm… S Brennan… did you read this very post of Publius? I wouldn’t say this site is transparently pro Obama when you have people thoroughly examining their own views about him.
I know Obama folks like to think they are above the crowd…I’m just letting you ordinary people think so too.
impressive. and what am i thinking… right now?
Um…why is this a problem?
There are individuals who run this site. They have opinions and likes. Why is it a problem for them to state this?
Let me help: “This web site is so transparently […]” not sentient, and not even an object, that it cannot possess opinions, or engage in thought: only individual humans can do that.
And each individual’s opinions here are their own. You are exactly as much part of “this web site” as anyone else.
HTH.
My endorsement may not help his cause, but I find Ara’s words most wise.
I’m afraid you’re misreading, cleek. You’re under the control of S Brennan’s orbital mind control satellites. You ordinary people can only think what he lets you.
Fortunately, as a Vulcan, I am immune.
Gary, you’re supposed to trail that off… you know… “fortunately … I … ammm immun…..”
“eermm… S Brennan… did you read this very post of Publius? I wouldn’t say this site is transparently pro Obama when you have people thoroughly examining their own views about him.” Posted by: DL
Yes DL,
I did, I’d file this post under:
Pro Obama, Strawman, Argument, Publis uses.
You need to invite a feminist to be a regular contributor
I’m pretty sure Hilzoy should be at least slightly insulted by this.
Earlier today I made an argument that has not been understood or discussed on OW, blogs of the left, and the mass media.
” My feminism does not make me an inevitable supporter of Hillary, who has not committed herself to a feminist platform. If Obama campaigned as a feminist, spoke out against the sexist attacks against Clinton, and made family issues an essential part of his platform, I would be a fervent supporter. That he doesn’t seem to be considering such a potentially winning strategy indicates how thoroughly feminist and family issues have fallen beneath the political radar.”
My failure to evoke any comment whatsoever supports the validity of my observation. In general my feminist posts seem to fall into a black hole or be mischaracterized.
Eh, hilzoy isn’t up for being insulted just now. I’m assuming that Redstocking meant something like: someone who is prepared to post on feminist issues on a regular basis, rather than being, like hizoy, a feminist who finds herself drawn to civil liberties, foreign policy, and so forth just now, when she isn’t off on hiatus.
My failure to evoke any comment whatsoever supports the validity of my observation.
well, that’s an interesting conclusion.
That he doesn’t seem to be considering a potentially winning strategy indicates how thoroughly feminist and family issues have fallen beneath the political radar. I can’t figure out why.
Looking over his site and policy proposals, I find a plank to crack down on deadbeat dads and a generally strong pro-choice ethic, both widely considered feminist positions.
As for why he’s not cracking back on sexist attacks at Hillary Clinton and her campaign, I again point out that you generally don’t feel inclined to defend people using coded racial language against you. So Obama’s not a saint. Thank god for that.
Hilzoy, you are my hero; I always recommend you as the most brilliant, eloquent blogger ever. I have read every one of your posts. I am dreadfully sorry if I came across as insulting you.
Cleek, I am sorry I failed to make clear what observation I was referring to, which is that feminist and family issues have fallen beneath the political radar, instead of being seen as a potentially winning issue for all three candidates, almost as important as health care. Liberals and conservatives, atheists and fundamentalists, Catholics, Jews, Mormons and Muslims, Democrats and Republicans –all struggle to cope with family responsibilities and career demands and blame themselves on their shortcomings. The US has one of the worst records in the entire world on this vitally important issue. It does not seem to have occurred to most struggling families that there is any possibility of government assistance. No major presidential candidate has ever committed himself or herself to these issues.
“My failure to evoke any comment whatsoever supports the validity of my observation.”
Regrettably, this is a subset of the “X did not blog about Y; therefore X does not care about Y” fallacy.
It fails to take into account that people have lives, and non-infinite time to address every topic and comment that comes up, particularly when so many people are currently here and posting, producing a number of comments far greater than anyone is going to respond to.
It fails to take into account that people are apt to be preoccupied with other matters, like, for instance, the aftermath of a friend’s dying, their mental and physical state of health, their need to sleep, to lighten up, to distract themselves with other matters, or cope with continuing serious matters, and so on and so forth and so on.
And, respectfully, it’s not your blog. You arrived only literally yesterday. And have, I gently point out, since repeatedly complained that you’re not getting enough attention.
Respectfully, I suggest waiting until perhaps you’ve regularly posted for, say, three or six months, or at least six weeks, before drawing from that well again.
If it were your own blog, and everyone were commenting on your posts on all other topics than feminism, you’d have cause to draw conclusions.
As it is, those conditions not applying, I respectfully suggest that the grounds for such conclusions may not be as solid as you baldly assert.
I’m going to rant a bit about fiscal conservatism. First of all those words from the mouth of a Republican politician are a lie. The Congressional Repulicans spent years at Monday morning meetinngs with Norquist listeninng to hhis ideas about how to undo the New Deal by throwing limitless amounts of money at special innterests while cutting taxes in order to deliberately bankrupt the nation. A party that tolerates,no, more than tolerates–actively listenns to that sort of thinng–is not fiscally conservative, merely dishonest.
Agree 100%. I’m mostly critical of Democratic policy/politicians here because it’s a left-leaning site, but if it were RedState I’d be ranting against Republicans. I credit Clinton with having balanced the budget (though I think being forced to compromise with an opposition Congress helped), and Bush’s wanton fiscal irresponsibility has driven a generation of fiscal conservatives away from the GOP, including me.
“It is wrong that Senator Obama got to go through 15 debates trumpeting his superior judgment and how he had been against the war,” Clinton said during the rally.”
It’s not wrong of Bill Clinton to claim he was against the Iraq War before he was for it?
Hillary is seen as the “crush Republicans” candidate, because they hate her so much. Just her election would be a poke in the eye to the Republican Media Machine and the Republicans in power now.
Nobody’s going to crush the Republicans, and while that’s what the Daily Kosites may want, it’s not what most of the country wants. I want a moderate, pragmatic, adult approach to governing. On the Democratic side, the closest thing to that on offer is Obama.
Of course deadbeat dads (and moms) and pro choice are feminist issues. Family issues are even more important. I am incensed that conservatives and Republicans have defined “family issues” to be homophobia, denial of female sexuality, exaltation of virginity before marriage, blame for rape victims, and women’s return to their homes under their husbands’ rule. The viciousness of the sexist attacks on Clinton suggest that Obama’s young daughters might not to see a woman president in their lifetimes. They might face the same difficulties combining ambition and family that Michelle Obama talks about so honestly and eloquently.
Redstocking: no, you didn’t come across as insulting me. Not to me, at any rate.
I think that feminist issues have largely fallen off the radar, with the exception of abortion, and maybe a couple of others. But certainly everything related to childrearing, the care for parents that, last time I checked, women were more likely to provide, etc., have either dropped off the map or (care for parents) been assimilated to other issues (e.g., health insurance more generally) that are not overtly feminist.
The falling off the map part I deplore. The assimilation to other issues part I’m of two minds about: assimilating various kinds of issues that women face disproportionately to e.g. the more general economic insecurities faced by most people, when it helps get those issues dealt with, makes me think: well, I would prefer to discuss the specific impact on women, and why women often bear a disproportionate share of it; on the other hand, the practical side of me thinks: well, whatever helps to get some actual provision for health insurance passed will help actual women in actually tough situations more than anything, and if this is what it takes, then while I will go on trying to talk about those things, when I’m not off being distracted by something, I’m less upset about it than I am by distortions of public discourse that have bad effects; and I welcome the idea that men might see what happens to women as more connected to what happens to them than they might have otherwise.
Ordinary people seem to already have a rough consensus about what needs to happen, and show an strong inclination to vote for whatever Democrat gets nominated (especially if were to be Edwards). That is what bothers me about the whole ‘hope’ message. Hope is for supplicants. A political transformation worth having is one in which people decide that the government is supposed to work for them, that they *own* the government. We shouldn’t be supplicants, but citizens, taking back what’s ours. This is not only true, but also very good politics (remember ‘Wrong and strong beats right and weak’?). That is Edwards’ rhetoric, and he has consistently done better against every Republican than every other Democrat in poll after poll of ‘ordinary people’. Since it looks like we aren’t going to nominate him (for frivolous reasons, IMO), I hope the other two will continue to appropriate his rhetoric, as they have been doing for a year.
I think, jonny, that you’re overstating the appeal of Edwards. Firstly, the fact that he polls better against Republicans may merely be a reflection of the fact that as the dark horse in the race he’s not getting as much scrutiny as the frontrunners.
I also think that the reasons he’s being talked down aren’t frivolous at all – he doesn’t have much money, and he doesn’t have nationwide organizational strength. I think both of those are big deals.
Personally, Edwards would not get my vote, because while I’d agree with you that the economic anxieties of ordinary people are important, I think the class warfare shtick is irresponsible and divisive, and his economically isolationist policy proposals are unwise. Trade barriers would undercut purchasing power of everyone, but particularly the people who buy all those cheap imported goods from China at WalMart and Sam’s Club (i.e. the economically disadvantaged). Furthermore it would further undercut our exports at a time when foreign markets are growing exponentially and we should be looking to expand our share of the international economy.
I am so proud of myself. I became the Hillary of OW in only 3 days, and I mastered being shrill with my macbook. I might accept Gary’s admonishments, humbly repent my uppityness, renounce being a bitch, crone, and hag, and withdraw chastened, except that my arguments are important to the next month of the primary campaign, and few commenters seem to be making them. Publius’s quoting me at length misled me. Anyone interested in continuing this discussion can find me on my own blog. At least they no longer burn at the stake intelligent, articulate, older women who will not shut up.
All of human history has tested my patience. I will continue to read OW, but will react on my own blog
You don’t know how happy I am to hear people finally talking about the “substance” thing with Obama. I’ve been saying it forever. I don’t say it lightly. I live in Illinois.
He consistently did nothing but play the good guy. The “peace keeper.” He constantly voted “present” in the state legislature. Yes, there were times it was part of a “strategy” that is unique [and bizarre] to Illinois politics, but most of the time it wasn’t.
For example, there was a vote on a sex crimes bill that had broad, bipartisan support that he voted “present” on. How broad? It passed 58-0! he was the only one voting present.
He wouldn’t “shake up” Washington, as he and his supporters are alleging. He would merely make a new status quo with a message that compromise is the only way. Consequently, nothing would get done. It could be worse than what we have right now with the Republicans. At least, with them, we know where things stand. With Obama, you’d have to keep guessing because of his words.
The falling off the map part I deplore.
Isn’t it a good thing that feminist questions have fallen off the map, if the reason is that they’ve been settled in the feminists’ favor? Obviously, there are still some issues that feminists might have (equal pay for equal work, better provisions for female health issues, etc.) But I don’t think you can argue that a lot of the battles haven’t been won. A woman is a leading contender for President, which could have never happened in 1960 (and if it had, the sexist backlash would have consisted of a lot more than Chris Matthews wondering if Hillary was tough enough because she teared up during a Q&A session). More women than ever are in high positions in government, academia, and business. Laws on divorce, child support, etc. are more favorable to women than they’ve ever been before. I think your displaying an excess of pessimism, redstocking.
“I became the Hillary of OW in only 3 days, and I mastered being shrill with my macbook.”
I hope you don’t really feel that way. I, for one, am very much enjoying your comments here. Enjoying your blogs, too, in the little time I’ve had to look. You’re talking about important things and have an important perspective.
“My failure to evoke any comment whatsoever supports the validity of my observation”
Nah. I say brilliant things all of the time that evoke no comment. I just assume that everyone is too awestruck by my incisiveness and cogency to respond ;).
Seriously though – there’s little validation to be found in the blogosphere, unless you frequent echo chambers. ObWi doesn’t seem to be one of those.
Xeynon –
“More favorable than ever been before” != “No longer worth making a big deal about”
Redstocking: I echo what dkilmer said. I think you add a lot, and would hate to see you go. Though, of course, it’s your call.
Anybody have an opinion about: “For a lot of people, Hillary Clinton just wants this too badly”? Seems both reasonable and overly simplistic.
“Anyone interested in continuing this discussion can find me on my own blog. At least they no longer burn at the stake intelligent, articulate, older women who will not shut up.”
I made the claim that HRC was best on women’s issues in defending her progressive bona fides on the Ugh thread – you might have taken that up. – We’ve been talking to each other here for years. We know how to interpret what Gary writes as he intends it – you probably can’t read him as accurately. We know that counterarguments from e.g. Katherine have to be responded to in order to claim differing opinions are viable. Sebastian Holsclaw probably responds to a few percent of my comments to him, but he leads a busy life and it’s just how it is that my position in the debate phase-space isn’t critical to his arguments. You’ll be hard-pressed to find a better commentariat to test your opinions than here (esp. if we ever manage to get some active conservative posters, something I long ago predicted wouldn’t be possible until a Democrat takes the WH in 2009), so I urge you to stick around.
DKilmer – I didn’t say, nor imply, that. These things are organic changes. They take time. When the first generation of feminists kicked down the doors, it was unreasonable to expect a flood of women into these areas of American life, because girls by-and-large hadn’t been brought up to aspire to them or educated to excel in them prior to the feminist movement. Once that changed, the future changed, and women did start trickling in. For me, the idea that a person’s gender would be an important consideration in whether to vote for them for President is patently absurd. Given that I’m white, middle class, and fairly conservative, I think it’s fair to say that my analogue in 1955 would not feel the same way. That’s progress. Progress is possible, instant results, generally, are not.
“We know how to interpret what Gary writes as he intends it”
Which is to say — beneath the occasionally prickly exterior is a big heart.
Well, I have quickly recovered from my unprecedented PMS and menopausal irritability at age 62. Thank you for the kind comments. Dkilmer, I love you for reminding me that “everyone is too awestruck by my incisiveness and cogency to respond.”
What brought me back was the speculation that feminist issues have fallen off the map because they have been settled in the feminists’ favor. Perhaps that is true for childless women from Ivy League colleges and law schools. I hadn’t noticed the feminist triumph while caring for my 4 children, watching my parents care for my grandma, and caring for my parents who suffered from dementia in the last years of their lives.
In the early 70s I presciently critcized feminists for their overemphasis on abortion and their underemphasis on childcare and elder care. That is one major reason why many women who aren’t well-educated professionals, shun the feminist label and feel that feminism has deprived them of the option of staying home with their kids. Feminists made an unholy alliance with corporate capitalism. The neglect, even devaluation of caregiving, contributed to the conservative revival.
Rhetoric aside, I came back because I had inadvertently deleted my crack about PMS and menopausal irritabilty. Elders of Hllary’s and my age might be the only women to be trusted with the nuclear button:), but then the nation would have to endure our aging.
Wow. Playoff football, a thoughtful post by Publius and some incredible comments especially from Hilzoy.
Heaven.
I’ll admit, I’m dreamy for Obama these days. Perhaps I’m not cynical enough, but I actually like being inspired.
OCSteve makes a good point when he says at best Obama might be able to get half of his proposals passed into law. But to my mind that’s batting .500 and would be great.
For me the bottom line is our country needs someone like Obama now more than anytime in the past 50 years. I honestly believe he can change the tone of the debate if not control the debate itself.
That said, I’m not sure the next 4 years are going to be a time I’d want to lead America. We are heading for tough times economically. But perhaps Obama can provide hope when we need it most.
Red: stick around. I think you are teh coolest newbie…
feminist issues
Likely deserves a full thread. I’m open to consider anything, but I am genuinely curious as to what issues women feel they have today.
For the last couple of decades, my boss has been a woman. Half of that time, her boss was a woman. I‘ve known woman CEOs, CFOs, etc. Now I gave up big companies about 10 years ago – I like smaller companies much better. The focus is on what you can do – and women rock there. My current boss is a woman; I’ve worked for her about 10 years in two different companies. She rocks – best boss I ever had. Given the choice, I’ll report to a woman every time at this point.
I’ve been married 25 years – and my wife and I have always been equal partners. There was never any doubt of that. My mom is the strongest woman I know, OK – no, my grandma is…
Woman are much much stronger than men.
Is there still a glass ceiling? I really have not seen that in the last 20 years. I’m very grateful to work for a company where talent and effort are rewarded, regardless of sex or race.
I don’t want this to come across as disbelief – I just haven’t seen a problem in my life. I’m totally willing to admit to ignorance on this issue. But my wife and my boss (heh – redundant?) would be scratching their heads here…
In the early 70s I presciently critcized feminists for their overemphasis on abortion and their underemphasis on childcare and elder care.
I agree with you about this, redstocking. I consider myself very much in favor of gender equality, but am ambivalent about the “feminist” label because people have come to associate it with exactly what you say.
There are a lot of womens’ issues aside from the abstractions which some feminists obsess about which deserve more attention, childcare among them. From a conservative viewpoint, I’d agree that absentee fatherism is a big problem. One thing I like about Obama’s rhetorical tack is that he finds these points of agreement.
Redstocking,
I’d also add that the commentariat is not solely USaian, but has a small but significant leavening of people who are from outside the country. Those of us in that position want to discuss with other people about those topics of the day, but with the issues of feminism that you discuss, they don’t obtain in a similar way from country to country, so it is a bit difficult to discuss them in a way that utilizes common experiences.
Back to the Obama/HRC question, I have to think that the back and forth that has been evidenced here could be one of the reasons Bloomberg has been investigating a third party run, if the reports are true.
Cleek: you and all the other people needed to ensure we don’t have a president McCain in 2009
If it comes to that I will reconsider.
impressive. and what am i thinking… right now?
2 inch thick Ribeye, char grilled medium. Toppings and sides optional.
Okay, I know supporters of one candidate get really really pissy ’round this time of year. I know that you always believe that your candidate is running a cleaner race. You always give them the benefit of doubt & the other, not. Staffers get especially heated & say stupid things that don’t represent the campaign. Etc. etc.
But: this is really, really, really, really, really not cool.
Marshall gets a key fact wrong (the union hasn’t endorsed anyone), at first omits the stated reason for the suit, and then can’t even come up with the blatantly obvious reason this makes sense for the teacher’s union to do that in that context (e.g., caring about getting disenfranchised now that there’s a real contest). It would probably pay to take a Slartibartfastian pause and see how this develops a little before getting too worked up.
“reason it makes sense for the teacher’s union to do this in that context” is slightly better.
Josh,
Has been Obama for a while now.
It’s Josh’s creditability that’s questionable Katherine…and please spare me the mock outrage…I already here enough from MSM
Well, I’ll take that into consideration for your own credibility….
Really, now…we’re adults here….
I’m puzzled by the marshall slam as well. He’s been pretty scrupulous about trying to get things right, and has linked to Jerlyn at TalkLeft to highlight some problems with his post.
I do think that because he has pioneered/championed a new approach to blogging/websiting/netroots/whateverthetermdujour is, he is going to naturally have an affinity to Obama, but that seems to be miles away from affecting creditability. If you go down this road, you end up at what I call the faux Libertarian stance that claims is better than everyone else because it refuses to get it’s hands dirty. (I try to assign the problematic aspects to the position rather than to the people)
more details here.
Not arguing this one. Res ipsa loquitor.
More women than ever are in high positions in government, academia, and business. Laws on divorce, child support, etc. are more favorable to women than they’ve ever been before. I think your displaying an excess of pessimism, redstocking.
More than ever does not equal no more room for improvement of course. For instance; you say government positions but higher up I linked to the international figures of female participation in politic/government and in the US only 13% is female.
Redstocking: I find your comments worthwile and read them with interest, but as Liberal Japonicus mentioned – we’re not all from the US. In the Netherlands things are different. Sometimes better, sometimes worse – and though I recognize a lot of the general feminist issues (I’m one of those people who prefer to label themselves emancipated) it is hard to comment on the specific US situation.
Coming back to the question of religion…has anyone besides me noticed that Obama usually ends his speeches by saying thank you instead of the disingenuous but obligatory “God bless you.” Check out his speeches after the Iowa caucus and the New Hampshire primary. No “God bless you” or “God bless America.” Both Clinton and Edwards use the phrase. I was happy to see Obama do without it.
“…but the depths of hostility often betrays a lingering, if subconscious, jealousy of those who believe.”
Unless “The Reaping” had a cultural impact that its box-office receipts merely hinted at, I honestly don’t understand why everyone assumes this.
Actual reasons for hostility:
1. Suffocating pervasiveness of religion
2. Use of religion to further horrible agendas
3. Offense at religion’s lily-gilding of way cool natural world
4. Parents were like mother in Carrie
5. The radio for two straight months after Halloween
6. Many of us are jerks independent of belief system
7. Jealousy
Jealousy’s probably even lower on the list, but I’m only the designated atheist who whines about mischaracterization on comment threads devoted to unrelated subjects until 9, and I’m already into overtime.
OCSteve,
Unlike mostl feminists with my intellect and education, I decided to stay home with my four children full-time for 15 years and part-time until the youngest went to college. I involved myself in nonsexist childrearing, childbirth education, breastfeeding counseling, parent education, toddler playgroups, babysitting cooperatives, cooperative nursery schools, school libraries, a campaign to save the local public library, the nuclear freeze movement, mental illness support and advocacy, parent advocacy for playground upkeep and a preschool playroom, a high school group for interracial understanding–the list is endless. When I made the mistake of attending library school and social work school, I naively assumed my qualifications would be obvious and no one would dare to treat me like a beginner. I was given the responsibility of an experienced worker and the salary, benefits, and respect of a beginner.
I recall one infuriating incident during my first social work placement; my childless supervisor earnestly instructed me how how interview a client with her two year old present. I had frequently run La Leche Meetings with 20 moms and 30 babies and toddlers. Women social workers who had taken very short maternity leaves and worked full-time during their children’s childhood too often acted like all my knowledge had been attained by cheating. I got more respect from male professors. The situation has worsened; women are terrified of taking only a few years off from work. And yet the men who fought World War II left their jobs for several years and did not suffer economic consequences. The government even paid for their college and grad school education.
When my mom went back to college in 1963 and work in 1968, after having raised 6 children, she was accorded more respect and her experience was more honored than mine was 20 years later Full-time childrearing is frequently belittled as beneath the time and attention of intelligent, well-educated parents, who presumably should have exploited immigrant women of color to love and understand their children while they pursued their more important jobs. Remember, things have not changed for the valiant, loving women of color who raise our children and care for our parents. I am often appalled how little highly successful two-career couples pay their nanny; many fail to provide the caregiver with any benefits, least of all health care.
I agree that most women with college degrees, graduate, or professional degrees have made enormous strides in mostl major professions and in the workplace generally. Even nurses and teachers have made significant progress because they unionized. Public librarians and social workers usually make less than any other professionals with graduate degrees because they are mostly women and they are not unionized.
It is only when women have children or have to care for aging parents that they fully realize that women have mostly gained the right to follow the traditional male life style, emphasizing work over relationships, caregiving, community activism.. As women chose to have children at an older and older age, the realization is late in coming. At that point their lives tend too become too frenzied and exhausting to leave any time for feminism and political reform.
In 2002 I had the chance to meet Mitt Romney for the first time. He was serving food at the Court Street Shelter for veterans in Downtown Boston. I was living there at the time and showed up to get lunch near the end of the lunch hour.
As I walked into the empty kitchen area I saw that it was Mitt Romney and I and one other person looking at each other. We had a brief discussion as to what the place was like. It lasted about 5 minutes at best, but he left a favorble impression on me.
In early 2003 on his inaguaration day as Governor of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts he served breakfast with his wife and his Lieutenant Governor Kerry Healy and her husband. As I approached the line they ran out of food and I got stuck waiting there and had a conversation with Mitt and his wife Ann. She informed that her father had been a Marine, and that there seemed to be a lot of Marines at Court Street. I informed her there were too many.
I went to the inauguration later that day and had a great view from the atrium looking down at the initial proceedings.
Later in the year when it became obvious that there had been some bad financial management of the facility at Court Street , Governor Romney wrote a personal check to keep the utilities from being shut off.
He is the only politician I ever saw go in there. He actually would have one on one discussions, not just photo opportunities. He saw that there was a problem and attempted to fix what he could instead of lip service.
Mitt Romney is a problem solver…that I saw first hand.
Redstocking,
I’ll try to comment a bit, but again, I have lived in Japan for almost 2 decades, so we may be disconnecting on any number of levels.
It is only when women have children or have to care for aging parents that they fully realize that women have mostly gained the right to follow the traditional male life style, emphasizing work over relationships, caregiving, community activism.
I think that a problem is that the direction of the movement has created some conundrums that are difficult to deal with. I’ve mentioned this before, but I recall an interesting piece that defined two different approaches to feminism, one being equality feminism, and the other being difference feminism (I’ve searched for the article a number of times, but haven’t found it, so this is my own memory, and the terms may not be correct) Equality feminism (EF) aggressively demanded that women be treated exactly the same as men, and directed itself at eliminating invoking differences. Difference feminism (DF) argued that there were specific role differences and sought to carve out specific protections for women that would allow them to participate more fully. The article argued that the US had gone down the path of EF while Europe had used DF, and as a result, the situation was better in Europe than in the US.
This is a very broad stroke distinction, but I think it gets at the first conundrum faced by society in general and men who want to do right in particular. There is a pressure to not notice differences on the one hand, but be conscious of differences on the other. You then get similar sorts of argumentation that you do over affirmative action.
Part of this is the American tendency towards myopia concerning the fairness of its own society, but if one takes the distinction made above as being meaningful, that means that being a feminist means rejecting some of what feminism had to say over the past 40 years.
This situation makes it really difficult to know what to say or how to address your concerns. So, when you say
It is only when women have children or have to care for aging parents that they fully realize that women have mostly gained the right to follow the traditional male life style, emphasizing work over relationships, caregiving, community activism.
it comes across like this was a strategy to actually disempower women, whereas I would say this has a lot more to do with class distinctions (the US has never been a friendly place for lower class people, probably a hangover from the Protestant work ethic and consumerist society) and the growing class divide, which is something you note when you talk about the belittling of childraising and the utilization of nannies and such. But those things shouldn’t be laid at the doorstep of progressive people being insufficiently feminist in their outlook, because that targets the people who are often most involved in fighting the problems of class divide.
Again, I may be misreading your concerns and comments completely, so please let me know if I have. I do think it is the coolest thing evah to have you here, and I wish that my mother and I could have had this kind of relationship.
“Res ipsa loquitor.”
Sure. HRC is on record as saying the caucus system, with its show-up-at-time-x requirement, is unfair to many workers. In this case it happens to be people whose union hasn’t endorsed a candidate (but who presumably lean to her) seeing they’ll lose political influence wrt people whose union has in case that candidate wins. And HRC says she hopes things will get worked out fairly for the janitors and for the gaming workers, and that as many people as possible should vote. I’m not seeing the villainy here – rough-and-tumble politics perhaps.
Redstocking:
I’ll second liberal japonicus’ enthusiasm (it may be a fourthing and fifthing because some other folks made similar noises) for your continued presence here.
My habit when folks show up here who clearly possess a strong, distinct voice (which goes for all of the regulars, and yes, I mean you, DaveC.) is to hang back for awhile and see what develops before I add my peculiarities to the conversation.
So if you leave already, I’m going to be sorry I did my usual initial wallflower thing while I got three drinks in me before I developed the courage to engage.
I kid. I meant two drinks. That’s not true. Don’t listen to me.
I also think it’s cool that you have joined Katherine in commenting here.
I wish my mother would show up, too, as long as folks could put up with her occasionally using the threads to remind me to write my thank you notes and, by the way, what ever happened to that nice sweater she gave me when I was twelve?
Then she would launch into a cogent, bullet-pointed tirade about the inadequacies of the Medicare drug plan.
Anyway, he sequed, if I can get my thoughts lined up, I have much to say someday about the subject of fathers and mothers reversing their roles as breadwinner and stay-at-home caregiver to the children …… in my wife’s and my case, one child.
We have conducted a radical reversal, and both of our views on the subject have become much more complicated over the years, especially if one considers the idea of a man reentering the workforce with what seems to be a black hole in his professional resume.
It is both the same and different than your experience. It is a double standard of sorts, which runs in both directions and then doubles back on itself.
May I say, too, Redstocking, that I detect some weird, overarching similarities between your experience going out into the world of work (odd that staying at home with the kids is NOT considered by some to be “the world” or “GNP-increasing work”), and Christopher Swift’s invocation in his 9:42pm comment of “too many Marines” at the Court Street shelter.
The perspectives of the many segments of American society regarding who and what activities are productive and the resulting, judgemental penalties and rewards attached to them are oddly narrow and absurd, to my admittedly peculiar mind.
This is all within the context of progressive societal improvements over the past 50 years.
Liberal japonicus,
Thank you so much for your warm welcome and your excellent post. It will take dozens of posts on my own blog to respond adequately, I entirely agree with you “that being a feminist means rejecting some of what feminism had to say over the past 40 years.” What has accompanied the success of feminism is less appreciation and support for the vitally important work of caregiving. Years of child care and elder care are not seen as the excellent job qualification they so often are. Christian fundamentalists have valid points about the neglect of children and elders in today’s post-feminist society. We cannot abandon this issue to them.
Thank you for bringing up the illuminating distinction between equality feminism (women treated the same as men) and difference feminism (specific role differences require specific protection for women to allow them to participate equally).What is biology and what is learned gender role in the perceived differences between men and women? Because I have 5 very different brothers and 4 very different daughters, I question overemphasis on innate differences. The spread of differences among people of the same sex seem as great or greater as the differences between the sexes. At 8 months, my grandson clearly resembles his adventurous, world-traveling mother; he is as different from two of his aunts as his mother is. We would need several generations of both men and women equally involved in raising young children to make any significant judgment about innate sex differences.
Childbearing shifts the equation. Doctors advocate nursing for a year as the ultimate preventive health measure. So for about two years per child, women do need special accommodations. As you say, Europe in general has much better support for new mothers. They recognize that everyone benefits if new parents can afford to bond with their newborns and children receive as much parental care as possible in the early years. Fathers and mothers are equally capable of parenting young children; exclusive breastfeeding only last six months. Many heroic women now manage to work full time and give their infants only their own milk.
Day care of infants and toddlers, if done right, is usually prohibitively expensive financially. Babies usually get sick far more often in day care, and their parents have to scramble for alternatives just as their babies are needier and fussier. Premature group care is frequently emotionally expensive for infants and toddlers. My oldest brilliantly explained her daily meltdown after full-day kindergarten: “Mommy I used all my goodness up at school.” Society needs to make changes so that both parents could work a part-time and/or home-based schedule in their children’s earliest years without losing their benefits or harming their possibilities for career advancement. Onsite day care could be an alternative offered by all large enough companies and organizations.
Dear John,
Like japonicus, you have given me inspiration for many posts on my own blog. I would love it if your mom blogged on OW as well. Sons seem slightly more enthused about their moms’ joining them in the same political playground; I would have freaked if my mom, a fellow feminist and leftist, had crashed my party. I have been a wallflower at OW for almost its entire existence, so I seem compelled to make up for lost time. I am sorry I am monopolizing the conversation. Finally finding my own voice at age 62 is thrilling. I am not going to leave OW, but keep teetering on the diving board, so I needed the validation I just got. Thank you everyone, and I am sorry I went Hillary on you, Gary.
John, I am so looking forward to your having much to say “about the subject of fathers and mothers reversing their roles as breadwinner and stay-at-home caregiver to the children .” In a sane society world, full-time parenting experience would be seen as more important than academic degrees, not a black hole in your resume. OW would benefit from more contributions from avowed parents.
You describe your experience as “both the same and different.” I loved this eloquent description: “it is a double standard of sorts, which runs in both directions and then doubles back on itself.” I am eagerly awaiting posts elucidating your experiences. I reread Christopher Swift’s comment and see how “too many Marines” at the Court Street shelter parallel the later jobhunting experiences of parents and caregivers who have served their country by nurturing its children.
I agree that US perceptions of “real” work, worthy of being recognized and counted, are absurd,” If a woman hires another woman to care for her child and then works in a day care center, both her work and her nanny’s work is counted in the GNP. If she cares for her own children, her work vanishes into a black hole, unrecognized and uncounted. If stay-at-home parents took care of their friends’ children and their friends took care of their children, the GNP would probably grow dramatically.
Full-time childrearing is frequently belittled as beneath the time and attention of intelligent, well-educated parents
I’m a SAHM, 45 and have three boys (5, 7 and 9) and have to defend that decision in the most unlikely places. At the same time as a SAHM I fall in a group that is so often belittled – also or maybe even especially by working women with better aducation.
Thanks for pointing out the two streams of feminism LJ. It is mainly associated with EF here and I am more of a DF person which is why I tend to call myself emancipated; freed to choose my own path.
Red: I recall your earlier statement that fathers should be included too. We are champion part-timers in the Netherlands and active fatherly participation in child rearing is considered a good thing but almost all public baby-change areas are still in the ladies bathrooms.
The model for most couples these days is the ‘one-and-a-half breadwinners’ model: He has a full time job and she has a little job on the side. Though there is a large group that favors the model where both work 4 days. We did, my husband actively went for a job in the banking-sector where he can work 4 9hour days as a full time job. Last year someone asked our boys what they wanted to be when they grew up. All three though a bit and replied “father” – and the oldes addes that he maybe wanted a little job on the side too, for practical purposes 😉
I think that you do have to take acount of the cultural differences between Europe and the States. We work to live, not live to work – free time is more important than more money. I have childless friends who are happy to work 4 days because it gives them more time to spend on things they see as worthwile too.
All I can say, Publius, is that I do not in the least relate to what you’re describing here. I’m a strong Obama supporter. I think he has the potential to win in 2008 with a real majority, the first we’ll have seen in longer than a generation. Meanwhile, as a former southerner who also lived for a long time in the Midwest, I know in my bones that Hillary Clinton is an electoral death sentence for the party.
This is, to my mind, a rational basis for supporting Obama. I don’t get the religious hoohah you’re talking about, at all.
All I can say, Publius, is that I do not in the least relate to what you’re describing here. I’m a strong Obama supporter. I think he has the potential to win in 2008 with a real majority, the first we’ll have seen in longer than a generation. Meanwhile, as a former southerner who also lived for a long time in the Midwest, I know in my bones that Hillary Clinton is an electoral death sentence for the party.
This is, to my mind, a rational basis for supporting Obama. I don’t get the religious hoohah you’re talking about, at all.
We have seen that the Republican Senate just doesn’t care if anything gets passed, and will be likely even more obdurate as a smaller minority under a Democratic President.
Lots and lots of interesting things to think about in this thread, but I’ll just make a brief reply to the above.
The Republicans in Congress have, in the main, lined up squarely behind pretty much anything Bush has put on the table for the last 7 years. My sense is that many have done this with great enthusiasm, more have done this with an eye to the main chance, and some have done so with their arm firmly twisted behind their back.
With Bush out, these three groups could likely be teased apart a bit. Folks in the first group would, no doubt, continue to oppose Democratic initiatives no matter what. Folks in the second and third groups, less so, although for perhaps different motives.
So, IMO post-2008 the Republicans may not present such a united front, and may not create quite as much of an obstacle to, for lack of a better word, “progressive” policies. I put that in quotes only because “progressive” these days refers to things that in saner places and times would be called “normal”.
My thoughts here are all more or less intuitions, rather than anything I can demonstrate with cites, facts, and figures. I’d be interested in others’ thoughts.
Thanks –
These accusations of Obama having no substance are totally false and ridiculous. He has extensive policy proposals, as well as several detailed proposed bills, some of which have already passed. In terms of accomplished substance, I’d say his lobbying reform and grant sunshine are more substantive than anything Clinton or Edwards ever did in the Senate, and he’s been in the Senate only 3 years.
Anyway, here’s some of his positions on the economy alone (highlights mine): http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/
Tax credit of $500 per working adult, eliminating taxes for 10% of Americans
Create a mortgage tax credit or $500 so the mortgage deduction is less skewed to the rich
Increase the Earned Income tax credit to a maximum of $555
Eliminate income taxes for seniors making less than $50,000
Provide prefilled tax forms from the IRS. No tax preparation for simple returns
50% increase in the Child and Dependent Care Tax Credit
10 billion per year for preschool education, including quadrupling head start.
Scholarships for teachers in underserved areas
Labor and Environmental protections on all Free Trade Plans
Enforce WTO treaty rights, including currency manipulation and copyright violation in China.
Extend government retraining to service positions
Make healthcare affordable for small business with his insurance plan
Eliminate capital gains on startups
Cosponsor of a bill to expand the Small Business Adminstration loan program
Double basic funding for science research.
Permanent tax credit for R&D
Double broadband availability
Encourage city wireless systems
Make broadband universally available, like electricity, phone, or mail
Create federal definitions of mortgage fraud and enforce them (proposed bill)
Require the GAO to report on state laws enabling mortgage fraud
Create a fund to support overextended mortgage holders
Create an FTC rating system for credit cards based on rates, fees, etc.
Credit card bill of rights, banning unilateral contract changes, retroactive rate increases, interest on fees, universal defaults, and some nasty payment tricks
Eliminate oil and gas tax loopholes
Reduce benefits for offshoring profits
Monitor tax haven countries
Simplify Sarbanes-Oxley for small business
Investigate credit ratings agencies for conflicts of interest
Improve the patent review system to reduce junk patents
Provide assorted support programs for people entering the job market
Use organized labor models to create career ladders in all industries
Index the minimum wage to inflation
Create a Green Jobs corps to train people in green technologies.
Require 25% of energy be renewable by 2025
Frankly I think if you compare Obama’s issues pages to Clinton’s http://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/ that *Obama’* are more detailed and specific (although both are very good). I have to say – in this day of widespread internet access, is it too much to ask people to Google “Barack Obama Issues” before pronouncing than Obama doesn’t have extensive, ambitious, and specific policy proposals?
Progressives have a strange relationship with religion. Many are (at least privately) contemptuous of it, but the depths of hostility often betrays a lingering, if subconscious, jealousy of those who believe.
Publius, have you got anything to back up this assertion, or is it just projection?
Yeah, her issues pages are vaguer than his.
As for the “religion” thing: any non-religious moral argument can be called a “secular religion.” I’ve heard this applied to the U.S. Constitution & I’ve heard it applied to human rights law. It’s pathetic that as soon as someone makes a moral argument to the U.S. public, & people respond to it, we worry that he’s a demagogic cult leader. This should be normal.
I suggest you all go read Susan G’s post over at the Daily Kos – Book Review: Bernie Horn’s “Framing the Future”.
Obama’s message isn’t meant for us politically active folks. Activists always seem to forget most people aren’t like us. They don’t think like we do.
Go read Susan G’s Post.
I may write in Dodd even if he’s off the ballot.
When you reference “the wretched movie” in the same sentence with “All the King’s Men,” please take care to specify “the wretched 2006 remake.” The 1949 original (featuring Broderick Crawford as Willie Stark) is a gem and a classic, and was rightly recognized as such from the outset — among other honors, it won 3 Oscars (best picture, best actor in a leading role, best supporting actress)and was nominated for 4 more, including (importantly) best screenplay. If you haven’t seen it and you care about American politics, culture, or history, you owe it to yourself to check it out.
The thing about Obama is that he is the other side of the same coin
as Huckabee. That is, beyond (and as a part of) both of them talking a lot in general terms about their Christian faith and both of them doing/saying rabidly
anti-gay things (Obama more recently than Huckabee) and both being
likable on first impression–they both tap into some sort of electoral desire for, ah, spiritual leadership. Or a very strong desire on the part of US Americans nowadays to throw reason and rationality to the wind and take a flyer on a long-shot on the idea that if we only believe we can close our eyes and click our heels 3 times and everything will be alright. In terms of Aristotelian rhetoric (and is there any other kind?) they are making pathos arguments, targeting our emotions and psychology rather than our reason.
And Obama and Huckabee are arrayed against opponents who put their experience and competence first and (try to) downplay their spiritual lives. Hillary and McCain/Romney are trying to win votes on the basis of
what Alex the Great’s teacher would’ve termed ehtos (credibility) and logos (reasoning and rationality).
I think that but for Huckabee and Obama’s lack of ethos/credibility
(Rezko, Dumond, etc & et al), they could succeed–without ever explaining
to us why it makes a lick of sense for either of them to be President.
Isn’t that what Aristotle said–that you needed to have ethos|credibility to win an argument on pathos but could win an argument on the basis of logos|reason without ethos? And to make an appeal on the basis of pathos alone was derided as sophistry by Socrates/Plato/Aristotle (right before Socrates was made to drink the hemlock, having lost an argument to a sophist).
Obama will end Don’t Ask Don’t Tell and expand hate crimes legislation. If this was what “antigay” people were like my life would be much easier.
I disagree with your assessment of the religious.
Years ago I came across a book on FDR and the era and I wished then we could have a great leader along those lines.
Many talk of what would have been if RFK had not been murdered.
Then you look at the complete absence of real leadership from presidents to our congress.
Neither Clinton nor Bush had given us much in the way of a national leadership and were far too engrossed into themselves and their wants and needs.
Our congress has been led by criminals like DeLay or spineless dolts like Reid.
Many feel when RFK had died he took the last of our real leadership with him. Our last heroic leaders like Lincoln, JFK or FDR.
Since then we have muddled around with the mediocre to the horrible.
What people see in Obama is someone who makes people listen. When he speaks people stop what they are doing and are intent.
When he is done many have tears or feel they want to do good deeds like rake the neighbor’s yard.
And there is longing.
You see in Obama the hallmarks of great leadership. Selfless leadership and someone who can bring back the great leaders again.
Make our worthless ones strive for better. And he fills the need of this country for a real leader again. Someone to rally around.
There is nothing religious about him.
But, he shows us time and again the ability to fill the role that FDR or other good leaders had and to give direction to this country and close the book on the sorry era of the bad leaders we have endured.
Redstocking, I take your point about how the venom directed at Hillary is often unpleasant, and frequently gives an impression of misogyny. I certainly don’t endorse attacks on Clinton as a woman, or for behaving “as one would expect from a woman” to rephrase a much more unpleasant way of speaking. That said, I would invite you to reconsider your assessment of Hillary as a feminist candidate. Does she really have an exceptional record of feminism, service to feminist ideals, or support for other women? I can’t recall her writing anything of substance, or which changed the debate on these issues. I also can’t remember her passing any legislation that was unusually pro-women, and I certainly don’t recall her going out of her way to advocate for women who were victims of male force, lust, corruption. Did she show any compassion for e.g. Monica Lewinsky, who was the victim of Bill Clinton’s abuse of power and office? What makes Hillary a genuine feminist, as opposed to a politician playing the gender card? I repeat, that I do wholeheartedly sympathize with your anger at how she has been attacked, but I wonder whether you are not defending a rather grey symbol, rather than a reality. I would genuinely like to know your opinion on why Hillary is different.
Perhaps I missed it but I really haven’t seen all this alleged sexism.
She cried. Some people said it was bad. Some people said it was good. No one really knows.
If a male candidate had cried what kind of response would have occurred?
Sexism exists in this country but Hillary Clinton has no problem using it to her advantage and I don’t think she is the representatives for those concerned about these issues.
EuripideanDreams: as you ought to know, Socrates was condemned by the vote of an Athenian democratic jury, on charges of introducing new gods and corrupting the youth. This is rather different from “an argument with a sophist”. Secondly, Aristotle was not even born when Socrates took hemlock, while Plato was still a very young man, which makes it rather unlikely that they all denounced sophistry just before Socrates died. As for the varieties of rhetoric, I am sure you would agree that Greek rhetoric was not limited to Aristotle, great thinker though he was. You might remember Demosthenes, Hermogenes, the Stoic theory of rhetoric – and many more. Then, of course, we would have to consider Chinese rhetoric, Roman rhetoric – and so many more. Finally, please, do try not to pontificate in grandiose terms. It is bad logos, and makes your ethos and pathos look rather silly.
Well, a lot of people miss what’s obvious.
A lot less in the media than what ocurred…and I speak as someone who has Clinton down at #3 in my preferences…
Ed Muskie would be gratified to hear.
I think there is tons of sexism in the media. Chris Matthews himself accounts for more of it than should exist on the entire planet.
That said, however, I’m not sure about this: “If a male candidate had cried what kind of response would have occurred?”
It has been a while, but the one time I can think of when a male candidate (Muskie) did cry, on the occasion of the Machester Union-Leader having gone after his wife, he was forced out of the race.
Personally, I think this was sexist too: men, after all, are not supposed to cry.
“the one time I can think of when a male candidate (Muskie) did cry”
You state it as a fact, but he was standing in the middle of a snowstorm; he was said to have cried. So far as I know, the truth was indeterminable, unless you know something I don’t know about the famous event.
I could give cites, but check anything. Muskie went to his grave denying that he cried, so regardless of the sexism, I’m not sure it’s fair to him to call him a liar, given the circumstances.
nickzi: Did she show any compassion for e.g. Monica Lewinsky, who was the victim of Bill Clinton’s abuse of power and office?
Being a feminist means you have to show compassion to the woman who was fooling around with your husband? Are you for real?
nickzi, earlier: I certainly don’t endorse attacks on Clinton as a woman, or for behaving “as one would expect from a woman” to rephrase a much more unpleasant way of speaking.
Just what do you think “one would expect from a woman” (or a man, for that matter) in this situation? Should she have sent Ms. Lewinski a fruit basket?
And frankly, I find the idea of Monica Lewinsky, victim, utterly ludicrous. I do think that Clinton, being allegedly a grownup, should never have done what he did. Personally, I may never forgive him for handing the Republicans a weapon. But Monica Lewinsky was also an adult. An adult who flashed her thong underwear at her boss. I find it hard to think of her as a victim either.
Sorry, I should have been more polite than “utterly ludicrous”.
Gromit, I asked the question of redstocking, who made a strong pitch for why sexism disgusted her, and pushed her to vote for Hillary. There are feminist thinkers who would strongly endorse the idea that women should support other women, even in the most unlikely circumstances, precisely because they see them as fellow-victims of an unjust patriarchal system. This is close to the rationale of redstocking’s comments, and it is not unreasonable to address the hypothetical question to her. As for Monica Lewinsky as victim – bear in mind that she was pilloried as fat, ugly, tasteless, vulgar, slutty – every unpleasant name under the sun – and has since retired into a relatively blighted career. If this is not victimhood, I’d like to know how you define it. In her situation, she was confronting an older, more experienced man, who had a vast amount of power. It may not have been rape – but you can hardly deny that Clinton exploited his position, and then simply discarded her, with a remarkable arrogance and dishonesty. Peddling the line that she was a seductress simply degrades her a little further. In using it, you are effectively buying into the Bill Clinton as victim line, which the old fraud has used for years. Why not simply say you believe that women are devilish tempters sent by Satan? You might as well – because that’s effectively the traditional basis for your views.
This blog post is tre-appropriate for me because a week ago I organized my first local event for the Obama campaign, and now I’m addicted. I’m helping out at headquarters, starting events, and talking to other activists in the New York Obama movement. It’s exhilarating. I even made a video about what I and other activists, from diverse backgrounds, are feeling:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=iO3cH8HbFbA
(I’m the guy at the end with the beard.) For many years my idea of political participation has been obsessively reading and commenting on blogs about how our country is doomed because of Bush and his cronies. I had forgotten what it feels like to use all of my energy and mind and yes, soul, to help improve the world. It feels great. It *is* spiritual. I care deeply about the United States and I want it to grow and change for the better. This election is not just an intellectual game of seeing who checks the right policy boxes. It’s also about who can inspire people like me, who have been so depressed about politics for so long, to believe that there’s at least a chance we can improve Washington. So I’m not going to be made to feel bad about my excitement, even if it, yes, admittedly, fills a pre-existing spiritual vacuum, and even if many charismatic politicians throughout history have been charlatans.
Now. That said. Is Obama the messiah? No. Will he heal the world the day he’s elected? No. I don’t like his silence on the tyranny of agribusiness. I wish his debate performances were better. If elected I’m sure his time in office will bring some major disappointments. But inspiration matters. Words matter. Hope matters. And so while I will certainly keep my eyes open to what Barack Obama actually does, I’m not going to be paralyzed by doubt, waiting for him to disappoint. I’ve decided that he is the best possible President for our country at this crucial historical moment. And I’m going to do everything in my power to help bring him to the White House.
Exactly who reported Monica’s flashing her thong? And yes, given Clinton’s sordid career of sexual misconduct, I don’t think you can get very far with the “Monica forced him into it” line. Sorry, but I think Gromit and Hilzoy could use a bit of good sense about power dynamics, and what it meant to a vulnerable young woman to have the President of the USA making a play for her. She was a victim, and Bill did exploit her youth, naivety, and willingness to believe that he was more than a sexual conman. I’d like to think that Hilzoy and Gromit mean well, but they don’t seem very aware of feminism and its (dis)contents.
nickzi: I have no problem at all saying that she was subjected to horrible treatment by the press afterwards, above and beyond anything she might have deserved. (I mean: one can criticize what she did, and I think this would be fine, but what people said about her went way past that.)
I said what I did partly because, as I remember it, Monica made the first move. If Clinton had, that would have been totally different, and would have brought into play the fact that he was much more powerful, etc. That fact would have made it totally reprehensible for him to make a play for her. I imagine that he probably made such plays for other women; if any of them were his subordinates, then I think they might fairly be said to be his victims. I just don’t think that Monica was his victim, still less that what happened was anything remotely like rape.
I might also be affected by the fact that one fine day back in early 2000, I was scraping paint while listening to CSPAN, and got to hear over three hours of Monica Lewinsky’s conversations with Linda Tripp.
I do not think that women in general are seductresses, still less that we are devilish tempters sent by Satan. I do, however, think that some women set out to seduce some men. I also think that Monica was one of them.
This in no way means that I think that Clinton was her victim. After all, he was a grown-up too. There does not have to be a victim in this story at all. And at least as far as what went on between Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky (as opposed to what happened later, e.g. at the hands of the media), I do not think there was.
Also: I am not in the least trying to say that Monica Lewinsky forced anyone into anything. I am trying to say that in my judgment, this was between two consenting adults, and that while that fact would cut no ice with me had Clinton made the first move, it does if she did.
Because the problem with his making the first move is that, given the power dynamics, it can be pretty hard to refuse. This just does not apply if she did.
The point about power dynamics is not “who made the first move” – it is about who has the position of authority, who has the influence, and who can control the situation. In that situation, it was Bill, the older, more experienced, more mature and more selfish of the two who had that power. He could have stopped it – and did not. He could have treated her with some decency – and did not. Maybe Monica was not exactly heric either – but look at the disparity in age, power, maturity. Do you think Monica made the first move – if she did – without some sort of encouragement by Clinton? Some eye-contact, some special sign of interest? Which of them had the track record of lies, adultery and generally exploiting women? How many women had Clinton lied about, exploited and generally betrayed? Sorry, but I can’t imagine she “made the first move” and expected to be used the way she was. Doubtless the women who preceded her felt the same. yes, there is a victim in this story, and it is the familiar story of Bill Clinton and women. They are used, discarded, lied about, and then blamed. That’s the Clinton track record, and it makes for a thoroughly repulsive sight. It also leads one to question whether Hillary really does have any feminist inclinations. How could any committed feminist stay with someone who has habitually treated women so vilely, and with such obvious sexual predatory intent? I repeat that I am not in sympathy with those who attack HRC as a woman, or for being “feminine” – but I do wonder how anyone can take her seriously as a feminist.
I think we might remember that “she made the first move” is a pretty standard defense in rape trials – and works more often than it should. No one should take it seriously as a defense in such a case, and it really doesn’t help Clinton’s case much at all. Look at the age gap. Look at how much power he had. You can’t claim that the playingfield was remotely level. It is also crazy to say that there doesn’t have to be a victim – at minimum, Hillary was a victim, so was Chelsea, and so, indirectly, were many people who had trusted Clinton and been betrayed by his atrocious lack of ethics. Yes, Monica got screwed by Bill, and in more ways than one.
nickzi: Fwiw, I have absolutely no brief for Bill Clinton, at least as far as his treatment of women is concerned. None at all. Nor am I particularly thrilled by Hillary.
That said, I have always wondered why so few people, on all sides of the political spectrum, consider the possibility that the two of them might have stayed together because they love each other, albeit, I’d imagine, in a fairly complicated way. (Think of Betty Friedan, who surely ought to count as a committed feminist.)
Lots of people who are generally great on some issues nonetheless have complicated personal lives, which are related to their principles in complicated ways. I am, for that reason, not the least inclined to think that she can’t be a committed feminist if she stayed in her marriage.
I just wish someone could make the case for me that she’s been a leader on feminist issues in her public life.
Hilzoy, I know we disagree about the victimhood of Monica Lewinski, and although I disagree with you profoundly on that one point, I think we find common ground in our view of Clinton qua womanizer, and Hillary as questionable feminist. I would say that it is hard for me to imagine a feminist with strongly held principles being able to go on for so long with a man who must have violated them in so many ways, so often. I can see that Hillary may well love Bill (and I suppose someone has to!), but I can’t see the feminist Hillary in all of this. I find it ironic that Democrats spend so much time on Clinton (Bill), who was on the whole not a distinguished president, and did much to damage his party. I also have trouble understanding why anyone would see Hillary as a strong advocate for women. Perhaps I am somewhat naive, but I feel that there is a lack of real achievement, and a willingness to abandon positions that might not be “popular” – whatever that means in our poll-driven age. I find all this deeply regrettable, because, as a lifelong liberal, I feel that the Democratic party really could do better. Instead, we get triangulation, manipulation, promises that are unfuflfilled – and some extremely unpleasant treatment of anyone who gets in the way of the Clinton machine. God knows, I want the Republicans gone – but must we really endorse the Clintons? Anyway, I want to say that I have absolutely no personal animus towards you, even though we disagree on these issues, and that I hope we can resume the conversation in happier times than the last thrashing and screaming days of the dying Bush presidency.
nickzi: I don’t do hard feelings, though I make a few exceptions for people like, oh, Dick Cheney. But unless you’re him, or maybe Rumsfeld or someone, no worries.
I don’t really get it either, and I truly do not want to endorse HRC, for reasons I explained elsewhere.
It’s not as if the whole sordid affair wasn’t typed up, bound, and published at taxpayer expense. We have a very good idea of how the power dynamic played out, and there’s no evidence of coercion. The relationship was completely inappropriate on perhaps a hundred levels, and everyone involved got way more than they bargained for in the end, but the main actors BOTH made really stupid choices that ended up harming a lot of people, and they both deserve a good bit of the blame. There’s no way that Hillary, as a good feminist, owes squat to the woman who transgressed against her marriage. As far as I’m concerned, compassion in that instance means nobody goes missing or loses an appendage, feminist or not.
Hilzoy, it’s a little alarming that nickzi disagrees with you, is not personal about it – and then you have to say you “don’t hold grudges”. Frankly, that sounds more like a promise to hold them, by implying that they do exist. What exactly would your grudge be here? Was the guy just wrong to criticise your views?
“Was the guy just wrong to criticise your views?”
I may have missed nickzi identifying as male, in which case never mind (and whatever gender nickzi is is irrelevant to this point), but it’s interesting that in a discussion of sexism, you seem to be suggesting that nickzi is male, absent such knowledge, unless I’m misreading.
Oh, and: “Frankly, that sounds more like a promise to hold them, by implying that they do exist.”
No, of course it doesn’t.
“What exactly would your grudge be here?”
It’s a false premise.
To be really really really clear and simple, Hilzoy was responding to this:
Saying, no, there’s no personal animus, is not actually impolite or threatening, in our culture, for most sane people.
GaryFarber – I see, so, a reasonable question produces attacks on my sanity? And no, asking what these putative hard feelings might be about is not unreasonable. In any case, perhaps you could let hilzoy answer for herself, rather than jumping in with some questionable assumptions. Meantime, please, calm down.
maximin: I was, in fact, replying to the quote Gary cited, which seemed to express concern that I might take it personally; I just wanted to say: no, I wouldn’t.
“GaryFarber – I see, so, a reasonable question produces attacks on my sanity?”
I was being a bit snarky; I’d have to know you better to actually question your sanity, and I don’t actually attack people’s sanity, although maybe that is what people mean when they say I drive them crazy.
“And no, asking what these putative hard feelings might be about is not unreasonable.”
It is, actually, since it’s based on either not reading or understanding the perfectly polite and friendly exchange of two people written in clear English.
“In any case, perhaps you could let hilzoy answer for herself,”
I couldn’t stop her, I assure you.
“rather than jumping in with some questionable assumptions.”
They’re not questionable at all, again given the above premise. In fact, they were what we call “true” assumptions. Also known as “facts.”
I’m perfectly willing to believe that you missed what Hilzoy was replying to, and thus were puzzled.
“Meantime, please, calm down.”
I couldn’t be more calm. My words are equally calm.
Gary, is there a part of “mind your own business” that perplexes you? Or should I make it shorter, if not sweeter? As for the idea that assumptions are facts, you really ought to find a job with Michelle Malkin. Perhaps if you hurry, your niche will be waiting.
hilzoy’s answer (and Gary’s preceding analysis) looked unsurprising to me.
Maximin, if I may say so, “mind your own business” is not really going to work when you post in a public forum
“Gary, is there a part of ‘mind your own business’ that
perplexes you?”
Not at all. There’s simply no reason for me to follow your commands.
I hope that won’t perplex you.
“As for the idea that assumptions are facts,”
Again, incorrect. The facts are the words written by nickzi and Hilzoy, and that my characterization of the exchange has been verified by Hilzoy, and — I’m going to go out on a simply terrifiying limb here, but I’m simply too brave for words — I will bet you one shiny nickel that if or when nickzi (whom I don’t know from a hole in the cliche) comments on this, nickzi will confirm a lack of concern over the alarming “grudge” your perceive to lie behind Hilzoy’s sinister and threatening words.
Have a nice week.
“I just wish someone could make the case for me that she’s been a leader on feminist issues in her public life.”
I’d argue that her entire existence amounts to leadership on feminism.
But there are examples of specific actions on feminism: The Office on Violence Against Women is a major one; the publicity she created at the Fourth World Conference on Women; the Vital Voices Global Partnership. There’s more if you’d like me to dig it up.
OK: there’s no reason anyone needs to obey my commands either, but I will now politely suggest that personal comments having been exchanged, we not exchange any more.
Perhaps this isn’t feminist, but i don’t really blame someone for fucking their way into power, over and above the blameworthyness of any sort of power-grabs. I don’t like HRC, but staying married to william isn’t really something i think should be up for hating-on. personalpoliticalyadayada, but public criticism, outside of celeb”heye-im-here-highly-paid-for-your-amusement”ness,
seems liek such bullshit. relationships are really complicated and outside bullshitting is just that.
yoyo: the posting rules forbid profanity. This is partly because of people who want to read this at work, or in some other place that has profanity filters, and partly because, after we adopted the rule for that reason, we discovered that it helps keep things civil.
I realize you probably didn’t know this, which is why I’m pointing it out. She said, feeling somewhat awkward. 🙂
i did not know blogs had ‘rules’
next thing you’ll be saying i need to wear a suit to post instead of my boxers
i even read the banning policy here before posting. you guys have multiple rule pages. @#$#@#$#.
Yeah, we keep meaning to consolidate them, but we never do… Sorry. (Why? Because most people don’t even read one page…)
I think there’s something twisted about holding a person’s feet to the fire, demanding that they break up their marriage in order to comply with a principle — basically, either bust up your life or be accused of hypocrisy. I’ve heard plenty of people say they knew Clinton was a phony feminist when she didn’t divorce Bill. I wish I could articulate exactly what is wrong with this. For one, it is pretty clear that “feminism” does not commit you to divorcing a person for philandering, but ignoring that — there’s just something sleazy about trying to use a person’s principles in any game of schadenfreude gotcha.
Having said that, the same issue arose with our lovely senator from Idaho. His public principles were one thing. His private behavior was another. This hypocrisy did bother me. Am I a hypocrite? Maybe. The lovely senator adopted policies that were meant to vilify people. Turns out he was vilifying a group that he had some degree of membership in. I’m pretty sure it is a stretch to argue that HRC hurt anybody by staying with Bill. Somehow, that seems to make a difference to me.
Or maybe the differences just that demanding some things is more difficult and demanding others. Demanding that a guy stay away from making sexual advances in public restrooms? Not so difficult in my book. Demanding that a person break up a 25 year marriage? Very difficult. So maybe it is just sensitivity towards how demanding it is reasonable to be.
And having said all that, I would like to say that there’s one part of what nickzi said that I agree with. I can excuse HRC for staying with Bill, the perv. But when HRC goes on to vilify and use the press machine against women who get in their political way, I have to say that you really can impeach a person’s feminist credentials on something like that.
Don’t I remember this very blog pushing Obama as a smart and right-thinking candidate who was always pushing interesting and well-thought-out bills?
I’m still on the “obamma pushes interesting and well-thought-out bills.” what of it???????
Sanbikinoraion, you may want to check the line beneath each post’s title. Several people post at Obsidian Wings, and those who are inclined to vote Democratic this election don’t all agree on which candidate is best or even what the major issues regarding each may be. Furthermore, the posters have all changed their minds on various issues over the years. The blog’s posters and long-time reader see both these features as actively good things, to be encouraged.
So even if you did see some posts that can be caricatured that way, it doesn’t mean you have grounds for an implied charge of hypocrisy or vacillation if other posts say other things.
Hope this helps.
To be very clear I don’t like Hillary Clinton. It’s not about her choices regarding her marriage. I have no idea what her reasons for staying with Bill are and I don’t care. What happens between a man and woman(or a man and a man or a woman and woman) is their issue.
I also don’t much care what her gender is. Sure I think it would nice to have a woman President just as I think it would be nice to have a black President. Good message to send to the country and the world. But it’s really a secondary point to me.
I don’t like Hillary Clinton because she strikes me as willing to do or say anything to achieve her objectives. I don’t believe she would ever say or do anything that involves risk. The one thing I really disliked about Bill’s time in office was his slavish adherence to polls. Polls are important and a President SHOULD always be taking the country’s temperature. But that doesn’t mean that his or her policies should shift with every new poll. I believe that Hillary would be even worse on this.
I believe that she is manipulative and that she is using her gender as a reason to vote for her. I don’t care much for that.
“Don’t I remember this very blog pushing Obama”
No. The blog is a Typepad service. It has no thoughts, takes no acts, and has no consciousness.
The contributors to this blog, on the other hand, are individuals, of quite disparate views. I’m really quite sure Charles hasn’t posted “pushing” Obama, nor Von, nor Sebastian (whom I managed to forget the other day when I was mentioning conservative contributors here: sorry, Sebastian! — but it’s been so long since you’ve been posting regularly!), and so on.
I, whom am neither this blog (thank God, I don’t want to be a collection of pixels) nor the author of this post, have in fact described Obama as the author of a number of thoughtful bills. (Most notably, here.) But the other members of this blog are individuals, and can make up their own minds, thank God.
While this thread is still raging, I’d like to comment on the “Muskie cried” meme
Muskie was upset at the newspaper for printing things about his wife and stormed over to give the editor a piece of his mind. It was very snowy outside.
Now, when you walk from an extremely cold exterior, into a very heated interior, you have an automatic physiological reaction — your eyes tear up.
Muskie was speaking angrily and “had tears in his eyes” and that got translated as “he cried” — I think any fair reading of the situation has to conclude that his eyes were watering because he came in from frigid temperature into a heated office.
But the story persists….
“I think any fair reading of the situation has to conclude that his eyes were watering because he came in from frigid temperature into a heated office.”
Muskie always insisted it was just melting snowflakes.
Maybe it is, or someday will be possible, to do a retroactive analysis of the video sufficient to reach a definitive conclusion, but my guess is that it’s more likely not possible, and thus will be forever indeterminate.
But I do think it’s unfair to Muskie to simply pass along what his enemies said, that destroyed his campaign, as unalloyed truth. It’s the last triumph of Richard Nixon that liberals thirty years later pass along his dirty campaign trick lies as unvarnished truth.
Googling to see if the Muskie video might be online somewhere, I see digby was as prescient as ever.
Also, equally unsurprisingly, Bob Somerby.
I don’t get the “Monica as victim” concept. Why is the disparity of power & age relevant where, as here, there seems to be absolutely zero evidence that he pressured her to have sex? She wasn’t a child, she was a smart, worldly grownup, albeit pretty young.
Is the theory that a workplace relationship is inherently coercive? I have a hard time with absolutes about relationships, all of which tend to have nuances not obvious to anybody except the participants. Here, I could far more easily make a story about Monica as a power-groupie determined to seduce a lonely older man, regardless of what it might cost him.
I’m not saying Bill is the victim — he was a grown up too, with lots more experience, and he showed lousy judgment. He set himself up. But I don’t see how you can look at what happened and say that he abused her.
And as to costs, well, they both got traduced in the press, so honors about even there. But he, not she, got the criminal indictment (which is what an impeachment is), the nationally televised trial, the upheaval of his career, etc. She, not he, got a better job out of it, a book contract, etc.
This is the song that Obama reminds me of.
http://www.hamienet.com/midi7595_Superstar.html
Barack Obama, Superstar!
Who are you, what kind of change are you are talking about?
Barack Obama, Superstar,
Who are you, what kind of change are you are talking about?
Barack Obama, Superstar
Who are you, what kind of change are you talking about?
Adoph Hitler could really rally those masses, and Olde Joe Stalin could make them walk barefoot through broken glasses, And Ho Chin Minn, he could bring the crowd in, and that Po Pot he know how his words could make them hot…
Now do you believe?
Now Marshall Applewhite made them think that they were going to go to Heaven on a comet, and David Koresh he sent his faithful on a path to Armageddon. And of course we all know about olde Jim Jones. His people did what he told em and that Kool-aid got overflowin…
Now do you believe? (the mesmerized crowd shouts back Yes we Believe) Now do you believe?(louder) Yes, we believe! Hallelujah now get that sister some water (the front row of women then faints).
Barack Obama, Superstar,
Who are you, what kind of change are you are talking about?
Barack Obama, Superstar
Who are you, what kind of change are you talking about?
Now do you see yourself as as Che’s Second comin… Or maybe you set yourself up on a path even higher. Perhaps you do see yourself as the new Messiah, start a new religion with you as its idol.
Do you believe?
Cults of personalities well they very rarely end well and with yours it could set the earth a trembling… For when you come unglued as all cult leaders in the end do, you could push that nuclear button and set the earth afire..
Barack Obama, Superstar,
Who are you, what kind of change are you are talking about?
Barack Obama, Superstar!
Who are you, what kind of change are you talking about?
Barack Obama, Superstar!
Turing America into one big Manson Family
Barack Obama, Superstar!
Turning America into one big Manson Family