George And Condi’s Excellent Adventure

by hilzoy

Even before the horrible bombing at Qana, the conflict in Lebanon was shaping up to be not just a catastrophe for Lebanon and its people, but a disastrous mistake for Israel and the US. In addition to everything else I’ve already said, Hezbollah seems to be fighting Israel to a draw so far, and Israel has not managed to make a dent in the number of rockets Hezbollah fires over the border. For a country that depends as heavily as Israel on its army’s reputation for invincibility, that’s an enormous problem.

Our policy has been just as disastrous for us. I suppose that the charitable interpretation of our policy would be: we wanted to let Israel strike a devastating blow to Hezbollah, after which Israel would have one less serious threat on its borders, Lebanon would no longer have to bother with a large armed militia on its territory, Syria and (especially) Iran would be chastened and deprived of one of their most important proxies, and other groups (like, oh, Hamas) could look at Hezbollah and rethink the idea of confrontation with Israel. I guess. Here’s an alternate version:

“As explained to me by several senior state department officials, Rice is entranced by a new “domino theory”: Israel’s attacks will demolish Hizbullah; the Lebanese will blame Hizbullah and destroy its influence; and the backlash will extend to Hamas, which will collapse. From the administration’s point of view, this is a proxy war with Iran (and Syria) that will inexplicably help turn around Iraq. “We will prevail,” Rice says.”

This “strategy”, if you can call it that, has several of the hallmarks of this administration: it greatly overestimates the degree to which political results can be achieved by military force; it does not take into account the sheer hatred that wars can produce, or the fragility of political structures in weak countries; its basic assumptions range from the wildly optimistic to the downright delusional; and it has no plan for what to do if those assumptions turn out to be wrong.

The less charitable way to describe it would be like this: imagine that a fire breaks out in someplace like New Jersey: heavily populated, and full of fuel tanks, large ammunition depots (including stashes of chemical and nuclear weapons), chemical storage facilities, and all sorts of other things that make a fire much more than usually dangerous. Unlike New Jersey, however, the locations of most of these hazards are unknown. Moreover, whereas New Jersey is a nice temperate place, our hypothetical New Jersey is very hot, very dry, and chock full of dried kindling and other flammable things just waiting to catch fire. The fire chief in New Jersey has already set a rather large fire in one part of the state, and it is burning out of control. Now a new fire breaks out.

Normally, when fires start in this part of the world, people put them out as quickly as possible. It’s only sensible: when fires burn, people die. Moreover, putting out the fire quickly avoids the absolute worst case scenario, which is that several of the unknown caches of oil, gas, ammunition, and chemicals all go up at once, and the entire state is destroyed. This time, however, the fire chief says: no, just let it burn. We have to deal with the root causes of the fire: all that fuel and kindling lying around. If we don’t let it burn out now, we’ll just be back here again in a year or two. And besides, I have some great new landscaping plans for the state.

People are aghast: there are people trapped in the burning areas; the fire is spreading and might soon be out of control; and above all, the risk that the fire will hit one of the storage tanks or fuel refineries always looms in the background. But the fire chief just thinks they’re being short-sighted: he is playing in a longer-term game than they are. As the fire rages, his spokesman puts out this statement:

“He mourns the loss of every life. Yet out of this tragic development, he believes a moment of clarity has arrived.”

Oh, and I should mention this: the fire chief is safely out of harm’s way. He can afford to be cavalier. The first responders who actually fight the fire, however, are in the field, along with the many, many inhabitants.

The war is far from over, but a lot of the costs are already clear. To Lebanon: destruction, hundreds of dead, thousands injured, 800,00 people fleeing for their lives, billions of dollars in damages. To Israel: scores of dead and wounded, the destruction of its reputation for military invincibility, the strengthening of an enemy, and the complete disappearance, for the foreseeable future, of any hope of a decent relationship with a democratic Lebanon. In what follows, though, I want to focus on the costs to the United States of George and Condi’s Excellent Adventure.

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Bad Mouth

by von I give J-Pod The Word on Mel’s breakdown: Listen, I understand that you found The Passion of the Christ stirring and meaningful. But there’s really no way around this one. The guy got drunk and began abusing a Malibu cop — a job category that vies with Shiite sheikh for perhaps the least … Read more

Random Musings

by hilzoy I just watched the President’s comments on the Middle East. There is no transcript yet, as far as I can tell, but his theme was mostly that we have to go on creating democracy around the Middle East in order to lay the foundations for peace. I honestly cannot imagine what alternate reality … Read more

Arrogance and Stupidity

by Andrew "Ahhh…arrogance and stupidity, all in the same package. How efficient of you." Ambassador Londo Mollari, Babylon 5 So the House leadership decided to pass a reduction of the estate tax and a minimum wage increase all in the same bill, presumably in the hopes they can get something they want in exchange for … Read more

And Now, For Something Completely Different

by Andrew Because, as Michael Garibaldi wisely observed, not every conversation has to be life and death, here is my list of my ten favorite movies of all time. I fully expect that such a discussion will be heated and heartfelt…but at least it will be about something that doesn’t really matter. A few notes … Read more

Bizarre Quotes Open Thread

by hilzoy First, via Elizabeth Warren, a Fed economist in the NYT: “Firefighters who want to live in high-priced cities can work two jobs, said W. Michael Cox, chief economist for the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas. “I think it’s great,” he said. “It gives you portfolio diversification in your income.”” Portfolio diversification in your … Read more

Winners and Losers

by Andrew And who will have wonWhen the soldiers have gone? From the lebanon Human League, "Lebanon" The purpose of war is to accrue certain benefits to your side. It’s not to kill people or to secure territory, although these activities are normally associated with wars. But wars are not generally started strictly for the … Read more

Ex-Spectator

by von HISTORY WILL JUDGE, I suspect, that Colin Powell got it right: The Powell Doctrine simply asserts that when a nation is engaging in war, every resource and tool should be used to achieve overwhelming force against the enemy. This may oppose the principle of proportionality, but there are grounds to suppose that principles … Read more

Off In La-La Land

by hilzoy

From today’s Presidential press conference:

“QUESTION: Mr. President, three years ago, you argued that an invasion of Iraq would create a new stage of Arab-Israeli peace. And yet today there is an Iraqi prime minister who has been sharply critical of Israel. Arab governments, despite your arguments, who first criticized Hezbollah, have now changed their tune. Now they’re sharply critical of Israel. And despite from both of you warnings to Syria and Iran to back off support from Hezbollah, effectively, Mr. President, your words are being ignored.

QUESTION: So what has happened to America’s clout in this region that you’ve committed yourself to transform?

BUSH: It’s an interesting period because, instead of having foreign policies based upon trying to create a sense of stability, we have a foreign policy that addresses the root causes of violence and instability. For a while, American foreign policy was just, “Let’s hope everything is calm” — kind of, managed calm. But beneath the surface brewed a lot of resentment and anger that was manifested on September the 11th. And so we’ve taken a foreign policy that says: On the one hand, we will protect ourselves from further attack in the short run by being aggressive in chasing down the killers and bringing them to justice. And make no mistake: They’re still out there, and they would like to harm our respective peoples because of what we stand for.

In the long term, to defeat this ideology — and they’re bound by an ideology — you defeat it with a more hopeful ideology called freedom. And, look, I fully understand some people don’t believe it’s possible for freedom and democracy to overcome this ideology of hatred. I understand that. I just happen to believe it is possible. And I believe it will happen.

And so what you’re seeing is, you know, a clash of governing styles. For example, you know, the notion of democracy beginning to emerge scares the ideologues, the totalitarians, those who want to impose their vision. It just frightens them. And so they respond. They’ve always been violent.

You know, I hear this amazing kind of editorial thought that says, all of a sudden, Hezbollah’s become violent because we’re promoting democracy. They have been violent for a long period of time. Or Hamas? One reason why the Palestinians still suffer is because there are militants who refuse to accept a Palestinian state based upon democratic principles. And so what the world is seeing is a desire by this country and our allies to defeat the ideology of hate with an ideology that has worked and that brings hope.

And one of the challenges, of course, is to convince people that Muslims would like to be free, that there’s other people other than people in Britain and America that would like to be free in the world. There’s this kind of almost — kind of a weird kind of elitism that says well maybe — maybe certain people in certain parts of the world shouldn’t be free; maybe it’s best just to let them sit in these tyrannical societies. And our foreign policy rejects that concept. And we don’t accept it. And so we’re working.

BUSH: And this is — I said the other day, when these attacks took place, I said it should be a moment of clarity for people to see the stakes in the 21st century. I mean, now there’s an unprovoked attack on a democracy. Why? I happen to believe because progress is being made toward democracies. And I believe that — I also believe that Iran would like to exert additional influence in the region; a theocracy would like to spread its influence using surrogates. And so I’m as determined as ever to continue fostering a foreign policy based upon liberty. And I think it’s going to work unless we lose our nerve and quit. And this government isn’t going to quit.”

Wow.

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Lebanon: Guest Post

In comments on an earlier thread, our commenter Ara mentioned having family in Lebanon, and some people asked him what they were thinking. Taking my cue from this, I (hilzoy) emailed him and asked whether he would be interested in writing a guest post. He graciously agreed, and emailed me back the following. *** I … Read more

The Next Step

by Andrew I suppose the administration’s latest request of Congress was to be expected. Alberto Gonzales wants Congress to give American personnel special protection against the War Crimes Act of 1996. It turns out that Congress made it a criminal offense for soldiers to violate the Geneva Conventions, including the potential use of the death … Read more

No Exit

by von THE WORDS OF Kofi Annan, Wednesday: In a statement, U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan said he was "shocked and deeply distressed by the apparently deliberate targeting" of the "clearly marked U.N. post at Khiyam." Annan said Olmert had given him "personal assurances" that U.N. posts would not be targeted, adding that the UNIFIL … Read more

Minor Celebrity!

by hilzoy Look what Amanda Marcotte at Pandagon did: “I was so amused by the fact that Muir showed up at Hilzoy’s place in an attempt to defend himself and failed miserably that I decided to recaption mine so that the dialogue is all from that thread. Muir is played by the gray-haired fellow and … Read more

Not About Lebanon!

by hilzoy This is your official non-Lebanon open thread. A few tidbits to get you started: First, Michael O’Hare’s invaluable guide to dealing with heat. Besides awnings/blinds and fluorescent bulbs (which you all have anyways, right? right???, the invaluable fan set to exhaust trick: “Dump the hot air out of your house in the evening! … Read more

Asymmetric Warfare

By Sebastian Discussions about rules of warfare tend to mix and muddle the reasoning behind such rules.  A classic example of this is can be found here at CrookedTimber.  Of course the reason people don’t line up to be shot at, wearing proper uniforms, distinguishing themselves from the civilian population, and so on, is that … Read more

Yet Another Post On Lebanon

by hilzoy I want to start by making, as clearly as I can, a point I’ve been making in comments, namely: It is not OK, when arguing about what Israel should do, to say something like: do you expect them to accept Hezbollah’s presence, with rockets, just over the border? You need to show that … Read more

Slogans

by von GLENN REYNOLDS, BLOGFATHER: "DIPLOMACY is the art of saying ‘nice doggie’ while reaching for a stick." Condi is saying ‘nice doggie.’ Israel is the stick. One may disapprove of this strategy, but complaints that Condi isn’t accomplishing anything merely indicate that the complainer doesn’t know what’s going on. I don’t mean to beat … Read more

Generally Speaking

by Andrew Left-wingers all hate America, want to eliminate personal freedom in order to impose their own egalitarian ideas, drink lattes, are atheists who want to force everyone else to be atheists as well, and are Communist-wanna-bes. Right-wingers all hate gays, want to keep women subservient to men, worship an ignorant and bigoted God, watch … Read more

Not Yet

by von Hilzoy writes (below) that "this has to stop" in Lebanon — that, whatever justifications Israel may have had going into Lebanon, they’re outweighed by the damage now being done to the nascent Lebanese democracy and to Lebanese civilians.  However, the fact the Hezbollah is wrong does not mean that Israel is right; nor … Read more

Lebanon: This Has To Stop.

by hilzoy David Adesnik wonders why liberal bloggers aren’t writing about Lebanon. In my case, it’s the combination of unremitting gloom and vivid memories of the last time Israel invaded Lebanon, which I got to see from closer up than I wanted to. Whenever I sit down to try to write something about this, I … Read more

Now There’s Something To Put On Your Resumé!

by hilzoy Via Andrew Sullivan, a link to Mr. Gay International, with representatives from all over the world, including, ta-dum: Mr. Gay Vatican City! I mean, who knew there was someone who actually held that title? I would have thought that while a gay man in the Vatican City might be quite popular, discretion would … Read more

“No Blood, No Foul”

by Katherine

(10th in a series. Previous posts: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)

Human Rights Watch has a new report out on abuses in Iraq. As important as their report last fall on Captain Fishback’s allegations were, I think this one may be more so. It hammers about 19 nails into the coffin of the "few bad apples" theory.

There are interviews with three soldiers: an interrogator with Task Force 121/6-26 at Camp NAMA; a sergeant with the 82nd airborne at Forward Operating Base Tiger, near the Syrian border; and  Tony Lagouranis, an army interrogator stationed near the Mosul airport.

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Posting Rules Update

by hilzoy We have altered the Posting Rules to include a ban on calling for the assassination of any person. (We had previously banned only calls for the assassination of politicians.) ‘Assassination’ does not include things like killing a legitimate military target in time of war, capital punishment, anything that would be covered, legally, by … Read more

Sucker-Free Sunday

by von At the risk of causing Hilzoy’s head to explode (see also Lemieux), we return to the Blogosphere’s resident aid-du-Kant, Chris Muir (click to see the panel). (H/T Yglesias, Sullivan, who both note the evident homophobia) Memo to Chris:  Sullivan does not have a "unique cant on Kant."  Sullivan has want we used to … Read more

Read It And Weep

by hilzoy Via The Head Heeb, Amir Oren in Ha’Aretz: “The military action is presented as being justified, one in which Israel had no choice. But two prime ministers failed in their duty, because they did have a choice and did not act to ensure that there would not be a war of no choice. … Read more

The Hazara

by Katherine

(9th in a series. Previous posts: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)

What Faiz Ullah could have probably used, more than anything else, was an officer on his CSRT panel who had read The Kite Runner.

Ullah is an Afghan, from a village near the city of Bamiyan.  His prisoner # is 919, and his CSRT begins on the 28th page of this PDF. He is  accused of associating with the Taliban and Hezb-e Islami Gulbuddin (HIG), and of carrying messages for a Taliban intelligence agent and HIG commander. He replies as follows:

Personal Representative: He says he is not Taliban. The Taliban killed his uncle and brother in law. In his area the Taliban killed several hundred Shia’as. He has heard of HIG (Hizb-I Islami Gulbuddin). He thinks they killed his mother.

Detainee: They took our land. They killed my mother. You can ask. This is true information. They killed my family. My wife said they came with a weapon and drew it on her. I asked the Red Cross to go and investigate if this was true or not. Ask my family….

I have respect for you because you saved our lives. If you people didn’t come, they would have killed us all. From my village, plus or minus two hundred Shia’s were killed. You can ask yourself. This is not a lie. If you people weren’t here to come and help us, we would have all died of hunger because you give us food. At our house we didn’t have even a little bit of oil. You can ask. Even my children were barefoot…Now my poor family have no food, they don’t have anything, and I was detained…I don’t know what happened to my family. I don’t know what happened to my children.

He is accused of laying mines for the HIG and the Taliban in the town of Madr:

Detainee: God knows that I don’t know how to do all this. My hands are scarred by sickles, you can see my hands. My hands are a farmer’s hands, marked by sickles. I don’t know how to do all of that. I wasn’t a big person. I didn’t have all that power. You think about it yourself. When they beat us and they took our land. If the Americans hadn’t come, they would have killed us all. At home we don’t have fuel. In this country, look at the food we are given. If we could find fuel, then we couldn’t salt; we find salt, we can’t find oil or we couldn’t find matches. You can ask about my life, what can I say? You can think about it yourself. Even in here the Taliban doesn’t like me. Even in here they throw water on me they throw urine on me and they beat me. If the Americans hadn’t come, they would have killed us. They took our land. You cannot find one Hazara (ph) who is a supporter of Taliban or Gulbuddin.

He tells the CSRT that the person who denounced him as an HIG and Taliban supporter was Shir Alrah, a local commander who wanted to marry his sister years ago. Ullah refused: "I told him that it was up to my sister who she wants to marry. I cannot force her to marry a person that she doesn’t want." As a result of this dispute he was imprisoned for eleven days by a powerful friend of Alrah’s named "Kalele" (I think he’s referring to Karim Khalili, a Hazara leader/warlord who controlled Bamiyan from 1996-8). Later on, Taliban forces came.  They took his family’s land, killed his mother, killed other relatives and hundreds of other Shi’a in his village, and drove the rest out of their homes.

Ullah was arrested because friends of the local governor, including Shir Alrah, had told him that he could get his family’s land back if he delivered a message and obtained a reply from a former Talib who was responsible for the atrocities against his family. Ullah did this. Afterwards, Alrah apparently gave the letter to the Americans and denounced him. American soldiers came to arrest Ullah at his uncle’s house. The soldiers couldn’t speak Farsi, and Ullah could speak no other language. There was one translator, but it did no good.

Q: Did you support the Taliban or U.S. at any time?

A: I was a refugee. The Americans came and previously they had burned our houses…One help organization gave us enough wood to build a house. Because the weather was so cold and my wife was pregnant and Bamian was cold we decided to go to Kamard. I didn’t have any wood, we didn’t have anything. They gave us twenty pieces of lumber so we covered the house. The help organization had given a door to me and I haven’t even put the door in. I covered the house and the door was at the house of the husband of my sister. In wintertime it gets cold and it’s freezing. When they make bread, the heat heats the house. When Taliban burned the houses, we didn’t have equipment to make bread with.

Q: Before you left, while you were in Afghanistan, were you very religious, medium? How often did you go to the mosque?

A: I’m from Khamard and [the] mosque is one hour away from me. The Sunni, they tried to teach us how to pray and everything and tried to teach me something but I didn’t learn it. Once a year there is a special place that we pray. Once a year we go to that special place and pray. The Taliban had killed the mullah. His name was Salabar (ph). We don’t have anything.

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“The Hannibal Lecters of South-West Asia”

by Katherine (8th in a series. Previous posts: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7) When the United States first opened Guantanamo, the Pentagon, the administration and their supporters claimed that the prisoners were all terrorists, "the worst of the worst," "trained killers," "the sort of people who would chew through a hydraulic cable to … Read more

Ambiguity (Part III)

by Katherine

(7th in a series. Previous posts: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)

Before I continue, I should probably explain why I am going into such excruciating detail about the differences and similarities between the requirements of Hamdan and those of the Detainee Treatment Act/McCain amendment. It’s because based on the news stories and hearings on the response the Hamdan, I think the Bush administration is going to introduce a bill that: (1) strips the courts of jurisidiction over pending habeas cases at Guantanamo (the Son of the Graham Amendment, basically), and (2) amends the War Crimes Act so that it forbids the exact same things as the McCain Amendment.

The Washington Post has reported:

McCain said yesterday that at a long White House meeting, with Graham and national security adviser Stephen J. Hadley an agreement was reached that legislation would use the military code — not the administration’s plan — as the framework, and a final bill would adhere to Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions.

The bill could adopt language crafted by McCain last year to ban torture at U.S. detention facilities that makes some changes to Common Article 3. For instance, it could drop the phrase "outrages upon personal dignity," which the administration sees as overly vague.

The New York Times has reported:

Senator Graham, who pointedly warned administration lawyers that the president would not win by fighting for his approach on trials, said in interviews that Common Article Three must be “reined in.”…

Mr. Graham said defining Article Three would be “the hardest part” of the debate on how to bring detainees to trial. He suggested that Congress could limit it in a way that resembled the language of the measure setting standards for the treatment of detainees that was written by Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, and signed into law last year.

“It says that every detainee will be treated humanely and that cruel, inhumane treatment will not be allowed against detainees,” Mr. Graham said. “Common Article Three with its language goes well beyond the McCain standard."

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Blog Whodunits

by Charles I just love a good mystery, and Eric Scheie at Classical Values has almost too much fun (starting here and following up here) tracking down the identity of oft-quoted George Harleigh, said to be a retired political science professor from Southern Illinois University.  Problem is, there is no evidence that the man exists.  … Read more

My Head, She Explodes!

by hilzoy Via Lawyers, Guns, and Money, Chris Muir takes a stab at intellectual history: and the next day: Apparently, ‘later’ in this last one used to read ‘Locke’, but someone clued Muir in to the fact that Locke was, in fact, Christian, and based his theory of property on our duties to God. But … Read more

Sometimes the World Sucks

Sorry I haven’t finished my promised post, but sometimes the world sucks. I have recently found out that a close friend had someone break into her house and he threaten to kill her kids if she didn’t have sex with him.  She put them in front of the TV and went upstairs with him.  Her … Read more

A Way Out in the Israel-Islamist Battle in South Lebanon

by Charles

I wrote in an earlier comment thread that Israel is doing the work that the Lebanese army should be doing but cannot.  The simple answer to ending the current violence between Israel and Hezbollah is to degrade Hezbollah to the point where Israel can hand the keys to the Lebanese army, giving the government full sovereignty over its country.  Another Charles agrees with me:

The road to a solution is therefore clear: Israel liberates south Lebanon and gives it back to the Lebanese.

It starts by preparing the ground with air power, just as the Persian Gulf War began with a 40-day air campaign. But if all that happens is the air campaign, the result will be failure. Hezbollah will remain in place, Israel will remain under the gun, Lebanon will remain divided and unfree. And this war will start again at a time of Hezbollah and Iran’s choosing.

[Update:  Add Josh Trevino to the ranks, too, who adds a little more detail on tactics.]  The interesting part to this is that, by going in and treating the Hezbollah cancer in southern Lebanon, Israel is helping Lebanese abide by UN Security Council Resolution 1559.  This is exactly why the "international community" should refrain from speaking about what Israel should do and focus its attention on Iran and Syria, sponsors of these terrorists, and urge Assad and the Iranian mullahs to tell their Hezbollah puppets to cease fire and return the hostages.  The only diplomacy necessary from Condi Rice is "keep up the good work" to Israel and "hang in there and you’ll get your country back" to Lebanon.  To Syria and Iran, the diplomacy will be more nuanced, but the general message should be, "get the f**k out."

More below the fold, including lots of updates!

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Ambiguity (Part II)

by Katherine

(6th in a series. Previous posts: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5)

While I’m on the subject of the need for clear guidance for interrogators, I  wanted to point out: As far as the military goes, the McCain Amendment, Hamdan, and Field Manual 34-52 are absolute miracles of clarity compared to the standard they replaced.

On February 7, 2002, President Bush officially signed an order concluding that the Geneva Conventions did not apply at all to al Qaeda prisoners, and did not provide any meaningful protection to Taliban prisoners. The order did require that "detainees be treated humanely and, to the extent appropriate and consistent with military necessity, in a manner consistent with the principles of Geneva."

In 2005, Deputy White House Counsel Timothy Flanigan was nominated to be Deputy Attorney General. During his confirmation hearings in September, Senator Richard Durbin of Illinois tried at length to get him to explain exactly what the requirement that prisoners be treated "humanely" meant.

In his first set of written questions Durbin asked Flanigan, "how do you define inhumane treatment?" Flanigan replied:

Any questions that may arise regarding whether particular treatment complies with that directive should be resolved by reference to the customary laws of war based upon a careful review of all the relevant facts and circumstances. Because the determination of whether particular treatment is inhumane is fact-specific, I do not believe that the term "inhumane" treatment is susceptible to a succinct definition.

Durbin tried asking about specific techniques:

a. In your personal opinion, is it legally permissible for U.S. personnel to subject a detainee to waterboarding (simulated drowning)? Is it inhumane?

b.  In your personal opinion, is it legally permissible for U.S. personnel to subject a detainee to mock execution? Is it inhumane?

c.  In your personal opinion, is it legally permissible for U.S. personnel to physically beat a detainee? Is it humane?

d.  In your personal opinion, is it legally permissible for U.S. personnel to force a detainee into a painful stress position for a prolonged time period? Is it inhumane?

He got exact the same answer:

With respect to your question about whether these techniques are "inhumane," "inhumane" treatment is not susceptible to a succinct definition. It is informed by the customary laws of war and depends on all of the relevant facts and circumstances.

Not satisfied with this, Durbin submitted a second set of written questions:

I have difficulty imagining facts and circumstances in which it would be legal or humane to subject a detainee to waterboarding, mock execution, physical beatings, or painful stress positions for a prolonged time period. Can you suggest any facts and circumstances in which treating a detainee in this fashion would be legal and humane?

Flanigan responded:

As I have previously stated, my role as Deputy Counsel to the President was not to evaluate particular interrogation methods, and I have not done so. Whether a particular interrogation method, such as those you mention, would be lawful would depend on the fact facts and circumstances surrounding its use….I am not in a position to discuss the application of those or other legal standards in the abstract to hypothetical conduct without more specificity. For all of these reasons, it would be inappropriate for me to speculate about whether such techniques are lawful or humane.

Durbin asked Flanigan whether, to his knowledge, the White House had "provided any guidance regarding the meaning of humane treatment."  Flanigan answered that "I am not aware of any guidance provided by the White House specifically related to the meaning of humane treatment."

Durbin asked how the military could "comply with the President’s directive if inhumane treatment is not susceptible to a succinct definition". Flanigan gave this reassuring response:

To say that the term "inhumane" treatment is not susceptible to a succinct definition is not to say that the term lacks meaning or that the Department of Defense cannot provide service men and women with appropriate guidance in the context of specific facts and circumstances.

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