by hilzoy
CNN:
“As police and National Guard troops struggled to restore order Thursday in New Orleans, emergency teams suspended boat rescue operations because conditions in the flooded city were too dangerous, rescuers said. The instructions to stand down came during a meeting with officials from the Federal Emergency Management Agency.
CNN’s Rick Sanchez reported that authorities were concerned for the rescuers’ safety because some people have become violent toward the rescuers. He said officials were trying to figure out how to safely resume rescues.”
“The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) suspended emergency boat rescue operations because of dangerous situations. The evacuation of the Superdome also was reportedly suspended after shots were said to have been fired at a military helicopter. No immediate injuries were reported. Small trash fires have been set around the Superdome, a National Guardsman was reportedly shot at, and there is widespread looting. More rain is expected today in the Gulf Coast region; it is likely to be heavy but widely scattered.
The scene at the Superdome became increasingly chaotic, with thousands of people rushing from nearby hotels and other buildings, hoping to climb onto the buses taking evacuees from the arena, officials said. Paramedics became increasingly alarmed by the sight of people with guns.
“We have suspended operations until they gain control of the Superdome,” said Richard Zeuschlag, head of Acadian Ambulance, which was handling the evacuation of sick and injured people from the Superdome. He said that military would not fly out of the Superdome either because of the gunfire and that the National Guard told him that it was sending 100 military police officers to gain control. “That’s not enough,” Zeuschlag. “We need a thousand.””
AP:
“Outside the Convention Center, the sidewalks were packed with people without food, water or medical care, and with no sign of law enforcement. Thousands of storm refugees had been assembling outside for days, waiting for buses that did not come.
At least seven bodies were scattered outside, and hungry, desperate people who were tired of waiting broke through the steel doors to a food service entrance and began pushing out pallets of water and juice and whatever else they could find. An old man in a chaise lounge lay dead in a grassy median as hungry babies wailed around him. Around the corner, an elderly woman lay dead in her wheelchair, covered up by a blanket, and another body lay beside her wrapped in a sheet. “I don’t treat my dog like that,” 47-year-old Daniel Edwards said as he pointed at the woman in the wheelchair. “I buried my dog.” He added: “You can do everything for other countries but you can’t do nothing for your own people. You can go overseas with the military but you can’t get them down here.”
Just above the convention center on Interstate 10, commercial buses were lined up, going nowhere. The street outside the center, above the floodwaters, smelled of urine and feces, and was choked with dirty diapers, old bottles and garbage. “They’ve been teasing us with buses for four days,” Edwards said.”
“At least seven bodies were scattered outside, and hungry, desperate people who were tired of waiting broke through the steel doors to a food service entrance and began pushing out pallets of water and juice and whatever else they could find”
Just heard Scotty at the gaggle say that adequate supplies of food and water were available, and the President stands by his warnings to looters.
I think Shephard Smith of FNC may retire young. He is standing on I-10 watching people die right beside him. Heard Hume ask Smith about supplies. Smith:”Been here for four days, haven’t seen one bottle of water.”
Now I think we might really see water-based disease outbreaks. I’d hoped that it could be avoided. This is terrible.
water-borne.
“Who, if I cried out, would hear me among the angelic orders?”
This livejournal is pretty horrific. It was via Brad DeLong, who also has this list of posts that are horrific in their own way.
Eric Muller has some links to the new shoot the looters meme.
A bit more cheery is this post about surrounding communities, with an unfortunately bitter aftertaste at the end.
From the AP article:
Unbelievable.
47 year old Daniel Edwards is obviously human filth and a malignancy to be utterly crushed.
I keep thinking of stories from people aboard ships in the Atlantic the night the Titanic sank. They said they could hear the screams from miles away – sound carries quite a distance on water – but they couldn’t do anything about it.
We’re watching one of our oldest, most beloved, most culturally-important cities die… for lack of luck made worse by lack of planning, and lack of funds to complete the projects that were planned.
And, other than give money to relief agencies, there’s nothing we can do.
John Cole over at balloon-juice has made a pledge worth emulating. He’s not only donating now, he’d going to donate out of every paycheck through the end of the year.
Folks, this is what life looks like when government fails. When government has been allowed to fail. When government has been intentionally set up to fail.
First Norquist wanted to drown government in the bathtub.
Then he got his wish in Iraq. Lawlessness, chaos, the rule of the gun. Private actors ripping off billions; poor individuals left without any safety net.
Now he is getting his wish in New Orleans.
This is what it looks like after small-government zealots, government-hating zealots, are allowed to take over the government.
And don’t forget:
“The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.'”
Well, no fear of that in New Orleans right now. Reagan and his tax-cutting spawn made sure of that.
The four levels of hell of the Superdome.
Somebody explain to me how cases of bottled water couldn’t have been stockpiled & made available to be parachuted in.
via Brad deLong:
Posted by Marty Schwimmer :
After CNN reported today that helicopters were diverted from plugging the levee breach on Tuesday, in order to rescue individuals on rooftops, I wondered what is involved in securing sufficient helicopters in a national emergency.
It took me two minutes of Googling to identify the Erickson Air Crane Company and obtain their email address and phone number. The Air Crane is one of the most powerful helicopters in the world (used for lifting trucks and putting out fires, for example).
I emailed them today asking if anyone had contacted them about the levee. They replied immediately that while they had put out the word to government entities, and while they are a DOD-listed contractor, they had not been contacted by any Government entity as of Wednesday evening.
The levee broke on Monday night. I assume that a governor, or a general, or maybe a President would have gotten the CEO of this company (and other companies like them) on the phone and said “get over there ASAP.”
From Gary’s link:
That’s inside the shelter.
It’s the gun thing that bothers me. You know, besides all the other stuff.
Radical libertarians (none here at Obsidians, that I know of, but courted assiduously by Norquist and company) first arm the citizenry and then when the citizenry turns, guns-blazing, radical libertarians learn to love the martial power of government over its citizenry, whom the government is supposed to protect but whom has had it knocked into their skulls that expecting protection from the government is a faintly pink thing, to be resisted, perhaps at the point of a gun, or demanded, perhaps at the point of a gun.
It’s peculiar.
I hope things get better. A Federal employee friend and others are headed for New Orleans with FEMA, to watch the private contractors interact with the citizenry.
No further comment from me on this subject until things get better. I am now speechless about the unspeakable.
From Gary’s link:
Dignity in the face of suffering. It’s enough to make one weep.
sorry–I hope it’s clear that that last post was *entirely* a quote from Schwimmer, and that the “I” in it does not refer to me.
HURRICANE DIGEST / Despite war, plenty of Guard troops
Despite the deployment of 78,000 National Guard forces in Iraq and other overseas hot spots, hurrica
Wait a minute…I thought “An armed society is a polite society”
Wait a minute…I thought “An armed society is a polite society”
That is only true when there is a significant chance of the other side shooting back.
Like under circumstances where there’s a decent chance that anyone else present may also have just looted a gun. Oh. Still doesn’t work, you say?
The water and contaminants are a long-term problem.
“That is only true when ….”
No, it is simply never true. When the other side is likely to shoot back, a few losers stay polite, and everyone else shoots first, shoots more, shoots in the back, and buys more guns.
Look, “An armed society is a polite society” was always a stupid idea. It never had more than a 15-second, dorm-room plausibility to it. It has all the a priori splendor of saying “yeah, if there were no money then we’d get everything, like, for *free*, man”.
There has never been a society that was polite merely in virtue of being armed to the teeth, or more polite because more heavily armed, or less polite because less heavily-armed.
We have had plenty of experience with armed societies, in Iraq, in Yemen, and elsewhere, and the results are in: this canard cannot be defended by appealing to special circumstances, it is just false through and through.
Ouch!
I just heard the President at the press conference announcing Bush Sr. and Clinton will spearhead a fundraising effort say:
If you don’t need gasoline don’t buy any.
That had to hurt.
Yes, yes, Evil, Evil Guns Are Evil, blah blah blah. Meanwhile, a disarmed society is a cowed, manipulatable society, and might not be all that polite either. People in the UK and Australia certainly still find creative ways to maim each other regularly.
Please tell me my fellow ObWiers, who I KNOW are smarter than that, aren’t viewing the aftermath of a natural disaster and the attendant social chaos as a data point for gun control. Please.
The lack of leadership from our President over the last week has me speechless.
“That is only true when there is a significant chance of the other side shooting back”
I can tell a quip when I hear or see one.
But it might be true. Those guns are the only thing standing between me and murder, pillage and rapine. I’m so disincentivized.
It’s hard not to let the thought drift idly through my head that if this were happening in, say, England, rescue efforts wouldn’t be being disrupted by sniper fire.
Of course, taking into account that N.O. has got one of the highest homicide rates of any US city probably wouldn’t hurt, either.
I don’t think wild West towns were notable for their civility. Some, in order to improve the levels of civilized behavior, required everyone to turn their guns into the sheriff, or leave town. ABilene, for example.
God, I feel so sorry for those folks stck there. It’s turning into Lord of the Flies.
Phil–
I’m not against guns. I don’t think guns are evil. I have used and owned them. And I don’t think society should be “disarmed”.
But for all that, I don’t like superficial cant, and “an armed society is a polite society” is superficial cant.
I agree with you that what is happening now in New Orleans does not provide much new data to advance or clarify debates over gun control. But *anything* would provide more data than a simple-minded a priori bumper-sticker slogan like “an armed society is a polite society”.
And by the way–somebody train a gun on John Thullen–he’s clearly in need of forcible restraint.
If I missed a quip from Mr. Holsclaw, and reacted disproportionately, then I apologize–marks off for my sense of humor.
Fair enough, Tad. I, on the other hand, have never owned a gun and have shot them perhaps twice, decades ago. I just don’t want to see a silly tangent develop over it, so I thought I’d try to head it off at the pass.
FEMA’s pulling out; the Army’s moving in. For some reason, the technology to simply airlift food and water to the city is beyond our government’s capacity.
Jesus H. Christ, it’s a good thing Bush wasn’t in office during the late 1940’s, or West Berlin would have died in its cradle.
Of course, taking into account that N.O. has got one of the highest homicide rates of any US city probably wouldn’t hurt, either.
This makes me worry about #3 on that 2001 worst-case scenario disaster list, my beloved Bay Area. San Franciscans are rather unlikely to shoot each other, but across the bay, there are some pretty tough neighborhoods. God, I hope coordinating lessons are learned from this debacle.
Phil–
Thanks. Tangent avoided. (Now that we’re not on the tangent, does that mean we’re back to going around the circle?)
Well, I was going to point out that the guy firing at the MILITARY helicopter obviously didn’t get the memo explaining Sebastian’s logic. But since everyone’s made up now here at the saloon, I’ll hold my fire and mosey on back to the Sheriff’s office.
Barkeep, you send Billy here a running if these boys get out of hand again. Drinks are on me.
You know it’s a really bad day when you think about 9/11/01 and say, “NYC didn’t really have it so bad.” Of course, I don’t mean that the loss of two buildings and more to the point 3000 people wasn’t bad, but just that compared to what’s going on in New Orleans, the aftermath of 9/11 looks not so bad. The hospitals stayed open and were not overwhelmed, except by people wanting to donate blood. There was very little panic in the streets, even downtown. People evacuated politely. There was very little, if any, looting and certainly no armed gangs roaming the streets (well, except for the National Guard, but they were very polite and restrained). I lived two miles away from ground zero and continued to live there peacefully the entire time. If I’d called 911, someone would have answered and shown up to deal with whatever my emergency might have been. Stores reopened on Sept 12th. The NYSE reopened only weeks after the event. People from all over the country, including New Orleans, gave money and sympathy to NYC after 9/11/01. Time to return the favor.
By the way, Moveon.org is organizing an effort to match refugees from New Orleans with people with a spare room, bed, or couch. If anyone has one, consider going to their website and volunteering.
You know it’s a really bad day when you think about 9/11/01 and say, “NYC didn’t really have it so bad.”
I’m a New Yorker, who was here for 9/11, and you’re right — I just had the same conversation with my husband. While 3000 were killed, very few were seriously hurt, and the uninhabitable area was comparatively very small. In comparison with this, for most of the survivors it was much more of an emotional blow and much less of a disaster that affected us personally.
I watched an entire briefing on CNN, where
Chertoff talked about the great job they were doing evacuating the Superdome (they had managed 3500 people in one day) and that their big priority was maintaining law and order.
The Coast Guard rep talked about rescuing 2900 people and the progress they were making on the oil and port infrastructure.
The DOJ rep talked about how they were dedicated to maintaining law and order and the court system and fighting price gouging.
The National Guard general talked about Guardsmen being activated all over the country and how they were all experienced law people.
The FEMA rep talked about they were in it for the long term and people should have patience.
Nobody said one word about when and where food and water would actually be available. So the people may die in the streets, but they’ll do so in good order.
Chertoff talked about the great job they were doing evacuating the Superdome (they had managed 3500 people in one day) and that their big priority was maintaining law and order.
I don’t understand this at all. If it’s possible to get a bus to the Superdome and out, it should be possible to get 100. Say a bus holds 50 people. 20 buses holds 1000 people. 400 buses holds 20,000 people.
Aren’t there 400 buses within a day’s drive of New Orleans? What am I missing?
What am I missing?
The authority to do just that.
This article seems important:
I just heard the President at the press conference announcing Bush Sr. and Clinton will spearhead a fundraising effort say:
If you don’t need gasoline don’t buy any.
So, will NASCAR be asked to shut down for the rest of the year, or are their drivers still going to burn countless gallons of gas driving around in circles (or other closed loops)?
I’m listening to Chertoff in an interview on NPR right now. He’s spinning in the wind as the anchor is pressing him on the lack of food and water for the “thousands” in the convention center. He keeping reasserting that food and water are getting to the Superdome and that the situation on the ground remains very difficult. I’m astounded.
I don’t understand this at all. If it’s possible to get a bus to the Superdome and out, it should be possible to get 100. Say a bus holds 50 people. 20 buses holds 1000 people. 400 buses holds 20,000 people.
As I understand it, they can’t just drive the buses up to the Superdome, which is surrounded by water. Getting the people to the highway ramp appears to be a bottleneck.
Katherine, do you have a link to that article? I have someone who badly needs to read it.
sorry, no, it’s on Lexis. It is quoted on this Atlanta Journal & Constitution article though.
Just a note about the whole “polite” thing. Canadians have very few handguns. And we’re real polite.
The English are rude buggers though. (apologies to Jes)
Via Atrios, FEMA’s 2nd rec. for donations is Pat Robertson&Co.
Recent satellite photo.
Jeez, I just heard that what they’ve been getting in the Superdome is two 9 oz bottles of water a day and two MREs. IIRC, you need at least a gallon of water a day in those temps to not get dehydrated.
Did the Air Force forget how to drop food and water from C130’s after they did it in Afghanistan?
rilkefan: When I first saw your post I was heartened to see that Pat Robertson was the 2nd largest donor to FEMA. It never in a million years crossed my mind that he’d be the 2nd largest recipient…
[ObPedantry: Yes, I know it’s not him personally but rather his charity. I’m not particularly convinced there’s a meaningful difference.]
Yes we are rude buggers (is “buggers” allowed on OW?!) but we have no guns…
worse news from New Orleans,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4206620.stm
Shorter Homeland Security Leadership: NOTHING TO SEE HERE. PLEASE DISPERSE.
Don’t know how much he gets, but that people are getting directed to him by the govt over say Catholic Charities USA or United Way is just perverse.
Digby Some quotes, scroll thru the Bush firing Army Corps guy who gave him bad news stuff
“A bad time with Mother Nature can leave you digging out for a long time, but a bad turn in human behavior frays and tears all the ties that truly bind human being–trust, confidence, mutual regard, belief in the essential goodness of one’s fellow citizens.”
….Peggy Noonan, in a “looters are hurting commander codpiece mode, somebody shoot them please”
Digby answers with photos of corpses in wheelchairs, who chose not to evacuate I guess, wheeling themselves down I-10.
Indeed Peggy, my ties are frayed and torn.
Not that our plight begins to compare to that of those remaining in the city, but for the evacuees (myself included) having to watch our beloved city dismember itself in full view of the world is pure, living hell.
rcs–
You have my sympathy. There are a couple of cities around the globe that I love, too, and I know how I would feel if they were in this kind of shape. Let’s hope things start getting better, soon.
House Speaker Dennis Hastert dropped a bombshell on flood-ravaged New Orleans on Thursday by suggesting that it isn’t sensible to rebuild the city.
“It doesn’t make sense to me,” Hastert told the Daily Herald in suburban Chicago in editions published today. “And it’s a question that certainly we should ask.”
via Times-Picayune
At Wonkette, an anonymous employee at the EPA says they have taken to calling the flooded parts of New Orleans “Lake George”, after the man responsible.
I’m just up now, and tripping over my jaw from Katherine’s article, which may indicate some problems with my own perceptions. Do churches in low income areas have DVD players? Did they really think this was an efficient way of distributing information?
The husband of a friend of mine is a big muckety-muck in FEMA. Actually he’s in NO right now. anyway, the Bush years have been very difficult for him. I can’t remember his job title, but he is high enough to be based in Washington D.C. Anyway the point is that during the Bush years any known Democrats at the top of FEMA have been made uncomfortable in various ways including, in his case, pressure to retire early to make way for Bush political appointments. He works in an atmosphere of near-harassment, where people make it clear that the sin of voting for Kerry renders one unfit for the job.
lj–
“Did they really think this was an efficient way of distributing information?”
And did they really think the right information to distribute was “if there’s trouble, you are on your own”?
It’s Bush’s ownership society–no safety-nets, no sharing of risk. You’re on your own.
I agree completely, Tad, and I am pretty horrified about the information delivered, but DVD delivery adds insult to injury, unless everyone has DVDs now. Somehow, I think that a lot of those people I am seeing in the Superdome and around the conventions center are not subscribed to Netflix. ‘You’re on your own, didn’t you get the memo?’
As an update, I still haven’t gotten thru to my folks, but there are no reports of casualties, and I’m sure that someone would have gotten in touch if there had been something bad. This blog is for people living in Picayune and Pearl River County. I’m a bit embarrassed to worry because there are people in a lot worse shape (Picayune has become a retirement area for people from New orleans, so there are a lot of elderly people with no family close by, whereas by brother lives next door to my parents)
It seems to me that it’s Hastert’s job to think about whether the country should rebuild NO given how vulnerable it would be to the next Katrina or to the next break-out of the river.
Okay. Does that extend to every city built on a flood plain, fault line, or volcano? Los Angeles and San Francisco, for example?
And where will New New Orleans be built?
Just saying.
It’s going surreal now.
Which it’s not:
On the quotes and link I just gave, keep in mind that this is not the Superdome; this is the New Orleans Convention Center; a whole ‘nother scene of death and horror.
Someone on my friends-list on livejournal said (and I must paraphrase and not link, because she is a civil servant and is not permitted to make political comments in public) – that the difficulty we in the UK have with understanding the US is that the US is really a hyper-rich Third World country. She offered this in response to my own (and other) stunned reactions to this disaster: that the US cannot deal with catastrophes on this scale because, in terms of national infrastructure, it is a Third World country.
The English are rude buggers though. (apologies to Jes)
Oh yes, they are. I’m Scots: no need for apologies…
I’m tired. I’m switching off. I wish I could think of something to say in response to all of this, but honest to God, all I wish is there were something I could do.
More on the surreal side. There’s this from Alistair Leithead from the BBC this morning:
And then there’s this from a doctor at Charity Hospital:
It’s not just surreal, it’s shameful.
Jesurgislac: I’m Scots
Jes is Scots? Profound apologies, I had assumed you were Sassenach.
“And where will New New Orleans be built?”
How about above sea level for starters? And maybe not in the middle of a fragile ecosystem?
As far as SF in concerned, if the marina goes then I think I’d advocate not rebuilding on sand.
Longer term, I’d like to see a much lower-population humanity living in better accord with nature, even if that means letting go of Santa Monica or reassembling Venice elsewhere or whatever.
keep in mind that this is not the Superdome; this is the New Orleans Convention Center; a whole ‘nother scene of death and horror.
I’m really baffled by this. I pretty sure the Convention Center is the site of the 1984 World’s Fair, which is on the river (you can see the signs that say ‘Riverwalk’ when they interview people), and it’s been pointed out that the Mississippi will allow shallow draft boats, so there should be no reason why they shouldn’t be able to take inflatables and either get supplies to the people or take people out. The mayor sent a message to CNN that was read as the Chertoff press conference was going that begged for assistance for the conference center (where I think the city government has moved to) and that people were going to start marching to the I-10 overpass in hopes of getting bussed out.
CNN’s Chris Lawrence is apparently barricaded on a police station rooftop and Sanjay Gupta is taking gunfire at Charity Hospital.
I’m also wondering about reports of ‘sniper fire’. How much of this is people shooting to get the attention of people and, after being passed over any number of times, start shooting at rescuers on the assumption that they are simply going to pass them by. (I suppose this is one of those problematic explanation/justification things. Nonetheless, I think it is something to think about)
Another long day for me, I guess.
But at least maybe you can get a date out of it.
Longer term, I’d like to see a much lower-population humanity living in better accord with nature, even if that means letting go of Santa Monica or reassembling Venice elsewhere or whatever.
Unfortunately, the trend is now for
infill housing, which has made the LA area have the highest population density in the US.
Three months ago, I attended a conference in the convention centre. It is indeed pretty much right on the river.
I am finding it difficult to reconcile the bland carpeted box in which I spent four days with the account Gary Farber linked to. How could these people get left in there for so long?
How about above sea level for starters? And maybe not in the middle of a fragile ecosystem?
That’s a great idea! So…where would that be? My vote: Saskatchewan. They need a little Mardi Gras to spice up the winter. And the summer, too.
I think, though, that Hastert’s comments were more in the spirit of “So long, and don’t let the door hit you on the way out, New Orleans”.
Bill Quigley
Another of those silly-proud people who chose to stay, well, actually 1300 in Memorial Hospital, tho the number is declining due to various unforeseeable acts of God.
What? New York City has about 26 million people per square mile, and Manhattan has 60+ million per square mile. L.A. is denser than people think but it’s not as dense as NY. It’s not real close.
High population density is GOOD for the environment, as a general rule. Less energy use, less water use, less total air pollution. Walking or taking public transportation instead of driving makes a huge difference, as does having less space to heat and cool, and apartments are much more efficient than houses. It also makes sense not to have a giant lawn you treat with pesticides and water in the middle of a desert, as does geographically concentrating development so that you have more land for open space, wetlands, forests, etc.
I mean, if you concentrate people in a dangerous spot you concentrate danger. But New York is pretty safe as these things go. And big cities are good for the environment. Look at how many people England sustains on that tiny piece of land.
I’ve been watching the tv news (I don’t have cable; NBC is doing an hour, though), and they had a long horrifying set of scenes from the convention center. Dead people slumped in chairs with identifying notes attached. More dead people. Crowds chanting “help! help!” People pulling apart fighting people. Extremely old and sick people. A curled-up horrid-looking woman said to be one hundred years old. A young woman in diabetic shock while a nurse-looking woman screams for insulin. A guy caring for 18 young kids whom he’d taken out from his housing project on a boat; the mothers had to stay behind, and two days later, they’ve not been heard from, and he’s taking care of these 18 little kids (like, five-years old) himself.
Scattered bits on some of the clusters of isolated people waiting and hoping for rescue; 200 at a church surrounded by water here; a dozen others there; twenty more over there.
But the convention center was a horror.
Katherine,
I was surprised as well, but the article has this
The urbanized area in and around Los Angeles has become the most densely populated place in the continental United States, according to the Census Bureau. Its density is 25 percent higher than that of New York, twice that of Washington and four times that of Atlanta, as measured by residents per square mile of urban land.
I’m also not sure if people concentrated is good in an overall sense. Certainly, economies of scale kick in, but it also make more inviting target. There is also the problem of heat islands and their effect on weather systems. If things are not planned for, any disruption can be much more deadly. I think that the benefits and costs can negate each other.
and it’s been pointed out that the Mississippi will allow shallow draft boats, so there should be no reason why they shouldn’t be able to take inflatables and either get supplies to the people or take people out.
The Convention Center isn’t physically isolated, as far as I can tell. The elevated expressway (Hwy 90) you see in all of the Superdome views has an exit right onto Convention Center Boulevard.
They a) don’t have the evac capacity and b) can’t get what they do have in safely.
Just got a call from my brother by satellite phone at his work and everyone in my family is fine, but there probably won’t be power or phone for the foreseeable future. Off to call all the relatives.
I came back with a vague notion that New Orleans had not made it as unscratched as was expected when I left. But I had no idea how bad things were. I sit here, feeling angry and terribly sad, not knowing how to respond – and in full agreement with Opus.
Living where I do it is not hard to empathize with the inhabitants of New Orleans – about 25% of the Netherlands is below sea level and our fight against water is a big part of our history.
But for crying out loud – you are the richest country in the world, highly technological advanced, highly militarized. I cannot understand how aid can be so terribly badly organized. Especially since the riscs were known well in advance – and since disaster plans ought to be pretty up to date.
Even the commenters at Redstate are wondering why aidrops aren’t possible. These people at the convention center don’t have water, last I heard.
Listening to Dr Berggren of Charity Hospital on CNN; she had the first set of patients evacuated today, but they just have been returned. No transport from staging ground.
She is losing patients hourly.
That’s just how they define the Metropolitan Statistical Area. NY’s includes some pretty empty places. Suffolk County, Putnam County–they get fairly rural out there, whereas as . I’ve never even heard of a bunch of the N.J. counties they include. Hunterdon? Pike? Don’t even ring a bell. On the other hand some places in Connecticut, which really are part of the commuter belt, are not included.
L.A.’s MSA is just L.A. County and Orange County. It’s not apples to apples. If you compare the cities themselves, NY is 3-4 times denser.
I don’t really have the heart to get into this now, although the environmental, health and other benefits of big cities is a hobbyhorse of mine.
“Even the commenters at Redstate are wondering why aidrops aren’t possible.”
After a while Occam’s Razor becomes a useful tool.
No, I had best go away for a while.
It is not so incidental that this is a preview of the level of organization and execution that we can, apparently, expect from DHS/FEMA in the event of another major terrorist attack on US soil under the Bush administration. What the hell have they spent four years doing?
Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineux Blanco is a Democrat.
Lousiana Lt. Gov. Mich Landrieu is a Democrat.
The Louisiana state legislature is overwhelmingly dominated by Democrats.
Party registration in Louisiana is more than 2:1 Democrat:Republican.
All these Democrats in Louisiana are in charge of a yearly state budget of more than $17 billion.
* * *
New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin is a Democrat.
In the 2004 election, New Orleans went for Kerry over Bush by a margin of more than three to one.
All these Democrats in New Orleans are in charge of a yearly city budget of about $500 million.
* * *
Do any of these Democrats bear any responsibility whatsoever here?
In the 2004 election, New Orleans went for Kerry over Bush by a margin of more than three to one.
Care to explain the relevance of this to anything?
OK, Mr. President. You want to wage a war on terror? Well, do it. People are stranded and dying in New Orleans and they are terrified. Wage your war on terror in the Gulf Coast. You wanted a foreign war so we wouldn’t have to fight terrorists here at home? Too bad. The terror has landed on our southern shore. Now get off your ass and fight it.
I think he’s wondering why the Governor of Louisiana and the Mayor of New Orleans have escaped criticism. If they in fact, have.
Though I don’t see how this applies to “registered Democrats”
“It is not so incidental that this is a preview of the level of organization and execution that we can, apparently, expect from DHS/FEMA in the event of another major terrorist attack on US soil under the Bush administration. What the hell have they spent four years doing?”
As I said here:
“what if this had been, say, a nuke from al Qaeda? ”
But it’s so hard to find someone to get revenge against when a hurricane destroys a city.
My gut feeling about this is that – in terms of the federal response/assistance we’d see – it’s too bad this wasn’t a major terrorist attack. Bush has demonstrated that he’s up for fighting human enemies and for bringing the energy, focus and resources of the federal govt. to the aid of a city under attact.
But this was an act of god. (Gotta think things through really carefully before tackling the works of the Big Guy/Intelligent Designer.)
Re Bushco, I’m jaded, cynical and horribly, horribly disappointed. Re Katrina, just heartbroken. Crushed and heartbroken.
I’ve been to New Orleans twice, both times for conventions* so I know the convention center moderately well. It is bizarre to think of that sterile box as the site of the chaos and suffering described in the news. It is also right on the river. Why can’t boats be brought up to rescue people stranded there? Or at least drop off food and clean water? There’s also a mall and several hotels next door to it. I hate to side with looters, but it isn’t like the owners are going to be able to claim any of the food and water in there…couldn’t someone go get whatever’s still edible there? I suppose they probably already have, in fact.
*I’d been planning to go there a third time for another convention this December. Guess that isn’t going to happen.
I think he’s wondering why the Governor of Louisiana and the Mayor of New Orleans have escaped criticism. If they in fact, have.
Which is a fair question, although I’m not sure what resources they control that would be helpful. Still, why the state (whose elected officials are mostly Democrats) hasn’t chartered every bus in a hundred mile radius to come pick people up is completely beyond me. It just doesn’t seem that it would require that much.
Well, the link now has America’s Second Harvest second. Go figure.
I wouldn’t contribute to Robertson even if he was on the top of the list. His idiocy aside, he’s got no expertise in disaster assistance.
As for how Louisiana’s government has done with all this, Jeb’s looking more and more like an organizational genius in comparison. So it just might be a righty plot to put Jeb in the White House.
Me, I’m just trying to remember what the “F” in FEMA stands for.
Hmmm….
“Louisiana”?
Hmmm….
“New Orleans Municipality”?
Nope–I think that would be “Federal”, as in the level of government that has been in the pocket of the Republican party for the last five years, and has been nearly destroyed by them.
Yes, there is blame to be distributed to lower levels of government, too, and they are catching some of it.
But I am not a resident of Louisiana, and I’m not a resident of New Orleans. Instead, I am a resident of the United States, a citizen of America. I expect a *lot* better from my federal government, and when it has been gutted, underfunded, diverted, and destroyed, by malignant ideologues who care nothing for doing the real job of governing, then I think *those* are the government officials I should blame. And when those officials belong solely to one party, then I blame that party.
Tongue at least three-quarters in cheek, that.
More drama, Tad. Emote! Give it to us!
LizardBreath: simple.
Tad Brennan, among others, above, has been blaming the current misery in New Orleans on the fiscal stinginess and perverse priorities of the Bush administration.
Evidently, far-sighted folk (mostly Democrats) knew that a disaster like this was possible, or probable, or even inevitable, and told the Bush administration so ahead of time, but to no avail. Bush was too obsessed with Iraq and terrorism to listen. So he shifted FEMA funds around to what turned out to be the wrong place at the wrong time.
But here’s the problem. Louisiana, in general, and New Orleans, in particular, are about as Big-Government-Democrat as you can get. Not to mention, closer to the problem. And with lots of money at their disposal.
So if this was such a big deal, and if Democrats were so aware of it ahead of time…
…why did they all sit on their hands and do nothing?
Still, why the state (whose elected officials are mostly Democrats) hasn’t chartered every bus in a hundred mile radius to come pick people up is completely beyond me.
I believe that most communication has been cut off so they can’t actually contact people. All electricity is gone, and apparently, batteries for portable communication devices are unable to be recharged. This from a livejournal that Brad DeLong recommended that I gave earlier. He’s in a datacenter, if I understand it correctly trying to maintain the building and
New Orleans Police Department Status: The situation for the NOPD is critical. This is firsthand information I have from an NOPD officer we’re giving shelter to. Apparently, their command and control infrastructure is shot. They have limited to no communication whatsoever. He didn’t even know the city was under martial law until we told him! His precinct (5th Precinct) is under water! UNDER WATER — every vehicle under water. They had to commander moving trucks like Ryder and UHaul to get around. The coroner’s office is shut down so bodies are being covered in leaves at best or left where they lie at worst.
They don’t even know their own rules of engagement. He says the force is impotent right now. They have no idea what’s going on, no coordination, virtually no comms, etc. the National Guard is gonna air drop a radio system for them with 200 radios? They are getting very little direction.
The 3rd District bugged out to Baton Rouge because they flooded out.
If the police does not have a command structure, it is difficult to imagine that the city government has one.
Because LA is a poor state, and the budgets you describe are devoted to, oh, keeping the schools open and the roads paved. Without the federal aid that was withheld, they didn’t have the money.
Look, people are dying as we speak because the response to this disaster is so insanely, insanely lacking. I know you’re trying desperately to spin this as a political victory for the right, but can we keep focused on what’s being done to try to minimize the carnage?
Oh all right, Slartibartfast, if you think I’m becoming histrionic, then perhaps I should go to bed.
I suspect some people *do* find this episode a reasonable source of anger and frustration, but perhaps you are right. Perhaps it is really nothing more than a cause for cool amusement. Rather jolly, really, and good for a laugh, especially if some people get hot under the collar.
And–Mr. Burton–as far as I understand, the Army Corps of Engineers is also a Federal Agency, entrusted with the maintenance of the nation’s waterways.
Do you deny that former employees of the Army Corps have blamed the diversion of funds to Iraq for the incomplete state of the levees?
I apologize, I actually edited that comment a bit accidentally, inserting ‘apparently’ because I thought I was editing what I had written. Here is the link
I can’t speak for anyone else, but on another thread I certainly criticized the mayor and governor for not using emergency powers to commandeer school buses, Greyhounds, or whatever else prior to landfall to effect the so-called “mandatory evacuation.” Believe me, there is plenty of blame to go around here. The article Katherine linked earlier shows that.
via Josh Marshall, a local New Orleans paper wrote in Sept. 2004:
“The Federal Emergency Management Agency shook up its way of distributing disaster preparedness money when it introduced its Pre-Disaster Mitigation (PDM) grant program in 2002. Given the program’s criteria, Louisiana appeared to have been a shoo-in for federal dollars for 2003, the first year the program began awarding money. Instead, Louisiana got nothing.”
Careful, you’re getting straw everywhere.
Lizardbreath (assuming that your post was addressed to me): could you provide figures for how much of Lousiana’s state budget is devoted to keeping the schools open and the roads paved?
Seriously.
You say: “I know you’re trying desperately to spin this as a political victory for the right…”
To which I reply: have you completely taken leave of your senses?
You ask: “can we keep focused on what’s being done to try to minimize the carnage?”
To which I reply: oh my goodness me. Is that what y’all were focusing on before? Until I sidetracked you?
Please don’t tell me what you take me for.
Tad Brennan: if the Army Corp of Engineers is a federal program, does it follow that no state agency can or may pursue similar projects? If they think it’s important enough?
After Pres Bush I mis-handled the early response to Hurricane Andrew in 1992, he sent a lot of money that way.
It’s the old moral hazard problem; if mayors and governors can reasonably rely on the feds to provide disaster relief when the problem gets large enough, they won’t dedicate their limited funds that way. Given the past conduct of the feds in the last 15-20 years, and especially after 9/11, it’s really no surprise that both the city and the state were expecting a far more vigorous federal response.
sure there’s blame to be aimed at the city and state. but i don’t pay those taxes. i do pay a lot of federal taxes and therefore can legitimately hold that govt to account for putting the Keystone Kops to shame with this routine.
imagine, if you will, that the levee break and power loss was the result of a coordinated terrorist attack. Isn’t this PRECISELY the kind of thing that DHS was supposed to be preparing for?
or, to put it another way, i reference you to Prof. H’s post on responsibility. The failure of the city and state to live up to their responsibilities in no way absolves the feds’ criminal negligence.
Ahh, I’m making straw men, am I?
Okay, Slartibartfast, then you explain to me, in clear, direct, non-cryptic English prose, what you meant by this:
“More drama, Tad. Emote! Give it to us!”
Were you not accusing me of being excessively dramatic? Were you not expressing amusement at my own expression of frustration?
Or are you simply going to continue your own contemptible pattern of hints, innuendos, and covert slurs, from which you immediately back away as soon as you are called on them?
You know, I have reason to think you are basically a decent guy. I probably agree with most of your politics. But your habits of communication–your endless slipperiness in never fully stating what you mean, and in denying the implications of what you do say–really lowers you in my estimation.
It’s not what you say. It’s how you say it. Own up to your opinions, state them directly, and quit ducking and weaving. You could avoid the creation of straw men with great ease, if you would simply say what you mean.
If I have misunderstood you, then tell me *exactly* what it is you meant. It is a courtesy that I show to you. I hope you will show it to me.
On to other topics:
To see other liberal bloggers blaming lower levels of government, see Kieran Healy on Crooked Timber , writing:
“While authorities in Louisiana and New Orleans are not as powerful as the Feds, they have known for years that a disaster of this kind was likely and were told in detail what it would do to their city. And yet.”
Steve Burton–
Yes. Although we’d have to look at the statutes to see for sure, I strongly suspect that the maintenance of an interstate waterway is something that no given state can touch without federal say-so.
In all fairness to everyone, there’s really been nothing quite like this. In Florida, FEMA was able to respond rather quickly because there wasn’t the flooding problem. Nor did any of the hurricanes hit major metro areas. Evacuation wasn’t obviously an issue because…well, because people who failed to evacuate weren’t stranded on their roofs. The bulk of the effort was blue-tarping people’s roofs, getting trees and power lines sorted out, and getting insurance paperwork likewise taken care of. In no case were there people out of physical reach for more than a day or two.
So, Florida looks a great deal more competent than Louisiana for dealing decisively with a much, much smaller problem. Even Miami getting hit squarely with a storm of that size wouldn’t have been nearly the disaster that New Orleans is.
And…counting on FEMA to deal with this has turned out to have been a very, very bad move. FEMA’s entire role in Florida was, pretty much, reimbursing people for generators, funerals, and cobbled-together roof repair, and, later on, assembly of temporary housing. None of these are areas of expertise that are immediately in demand in NO.
could you provide figures for how much of Lousiana’s state budget is devoted to keeping the schools open and the roads paved?
Aren’t you the one trying to make a point?
Anyways, knock yourself out.
And I second the question: Isn’t the maintenance of works on waterways under the jurisdiction of the Army Corp of Engineers?
2shoes:
“Lizardbreath” wrote: “the budgets you describe are devoted to, oh, keeping the schools open and the roads paved.” Sounds to me like an attempt to make a point. I made no counterclaim. I just asked.
So thanks for the pie chart. As far as I can tell, it doesn’t sustain “Lizardbreath”‘s point.
Sullivan weighs in:
“The fundamental reason for my inability to support a second Bush term was his demonstrated incompetence in performing the basic functions of government. It seems to me that the people of New Orleans are now as much a victim of this as the people of Iraq. I guess we can merely be thankful that Rumsfeld hasn’t yet appeared to say “Stuff happens.” Yes, it does. When your government seems unable to do the most basic things required of it.”
Yes.
Amusement at you? Perhaps. Amusement at the tragedy unfolding in New Orleans? Certainly not.
Ah…contemptible, yet decent. Nice, yet sneaky. How delightfully…slippery.
Oh, I did, Tad. I really, really hoped that was deliberately over-the-top rhetoric. If you don’t think it was, I suggest that you do go to bed, get a good night’s rest, and reread it in the morning. If it still looks reasonable, then I don’t think we’ve got much more to say to each other. I simply don’t speak that language.
Tad Brennan: I note, with the deepest interest, your suspicions.
If Louisiana had proposed spending some of their own money on building up the New Orleans levees, do you suppose the Feds would have objected?
Oh, and if you want to know what the USACOE and the National Guard are up to, their homepage might be a decent place to start.
Yes, Tad, how dare you get emotional over a horrifying natural disaster whose effects could have been mitigated with better planning? Bad Tad! Bad! No biscuit!
But the language you do speak includes lightly mocking people who get overly upset because people are dying due to governmental failures. Maybe if you waited until the bodies had stopped twitching, much less being buried, before you brought out the supercilious tone, it wouldn’t be quite so unpleasant.
Slarti: what in Tad’s comment did you find over the top, let alone in an alien language? Because if it’s this:
“I expect a *lot* better from my federal government, and when it has been gutted, underfunded, diverted, and destroyed, by malignant ideologues who care nothing for doing the real job of governing, then I think *those* are the government officials I should blame. And when those officials belong solely to one party, then I blame that party.”
— I agree with him.
I’m not sure how fair it really is to blame the City for much. Cities, especially those of the social/economic status of NO, aren’t exactly rolling in dough. I’m not sure, for example, what the police force could have done. I suspect that it’s got a tough enough job week in and week out, without this kind of total breakdown. I suppose the city could have used school busses to help evacuate people — a very expensive proposition — and if the levees had held, which was always possible, a pretty expensive insurance policy.
The state could certainly have been better prepared. But I think the magnitude of the thing, while readily forseeable on a rational level, was just so far over the horizon of what officials believed would happen, that they didn’t do what they could have done.
You wouldn’t expect either the city or the state to really be able to do airdrops. That’s more of a federal — or maybe NG — kind of thing.
I don’t know but it seems to me that the biggest culprit here is a cultural problem, not some politician’s failure to do his job. Poverty, and associated pathologies. It’s not George Bush’s fault that so many people in NO are poor, or lost in despair, although he’s done precious little about it. It’s a problem decades in the making, and the blame, it seems to me, is on those of whatever stripe who thought they’d rather just ignore ‘those people’ rather than try, really, to help them.
Steve,
Could you answer the question: Is the Army Corps of Engineers responsible for the levees?
Yes or no?
DNFTT. Especially ones too ignorant to comprehend that State-level government neither funds nor directs FEMA or the Army Corps of Engineers.
I don’t know if this article, “The Creeping Storm”, has been cited yet, but it’s quite creepy. It’s from the June 2003 issue of Civil Engineering Magazine. Some quotes:
Today New Orleans rests within a bowl formed by 16 ft (4.9 m) tall levees, locks, floodgates, and seawalls, the edge of the bowl extending for hundreds of miles. It is bisected from west to east by the Mississippi River, which is also contained within massive engineered embankments. Water flows through and all around the city while its residents go about their daily routines. A system of levees forming a ring around the northern half of the city to protect it from surging waters in Lake Pontchartrain is set to be completed within the next decade. Construction of a similar system around the southern half of the city will probably take several years longer than that.
But almost 40 years after beginning these projects, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is in the midst of reassessing them on the basis of an ominous question: Are the protective barriers high enough?….
…In the 1990s, Suhayda began modeling category 4 and 5 storms hitting New Orleans from a variety of directions. His results were frightening enough that he shared them with emergency preparedness officials throughout Louisiana. If such a severe storm were to hit the city from the southwest, for instance, Suhayda’s data indicate that the water level of Lake Pontchartrain would rise by as much as 12 ft (3.7 m). As the storm’s counterclockwise winds battered the levees on the northern shore of the city, the water would easily top the embankments and fill the streets to a depth of 25 ft (7.6 m) or more.
Suhayda’s model is not the only one that describes such a catastrophe. A model called SLOSH (Sea, Lake, and Overland Surges from Hurricanes), which is used by the National Weather Service and local agencies concerned with emergency preparedness, portrays an equally grim outcome should a storm of category 5 hit New Orleans. The SLOSH model does not contain nearly as many computational nodes as does AdCirc, it does not use a finite-element grid to increase the resolution of the nodes on shore, and its boundary is much smaller. Even so, its results are disheartening.
“Suppose it’s wrong,” says Combe, the Corps modeler. “Suppose twenty-five feet is only fifteen feet. Fifteen feet still floods the whole city up to the height of the levees.”
Experts say a flood of this magnitude would probably shut down the city’s power plants and water and sewage treatment plants and might even take out its drainage system. The workhorse pumps would be clogged with debris, and the levees would suddenly be working to keep water in the city. Survivors of the storm—humans and animals alike—would be sharing space on the crests of levees until the Corps could dynamite holes in the structures to drain the area. In such a scenario, the American Red Cross estimates that between 25,000 and 100,000 people would die.
That prospect—and the amount of time it would take the Corps to construct adequate levee protection against a storm of category 4—have inspired Suhayda to push for what he calls a community haven project. His idea is for the city to construct a 30 ft (9 m) tall wall equipped with floodgates through the center of town to protect the heart of New Orleans and such culturally important areas as the French Quarter. That portion of the city lies between two bends in the Mississippi River and is therefore already protected by adequate levees on three sides. With its gates closed, the wall would complete a waterproof ring around the area….
….For the most part, New Orleans does not have places for people to go. The American Red Cross no longer provides emergency shelters in the city because its officials cannot guarantee the structural integrity of the locations. There simply are not enough buildings in the area that could withstand the forces of a category 4 or 5 storm.
During the past 10 years Marc Levitan, a wind and structural engineer and the director of LSU’s Hurricane Center, has been involved in hundreds of building investigations throughout New Orleans to determine if certain structures could be used as so-called refuges of last resort. “With the vast majority of them, if you really do an analysis, you really wouldn’t want to use them,” he says. “They all have some sort of deficiency.”
Most people would not wish to remain in the city if a category 4 or 5 storm were in prospect, but evacuating could be difficult. Experts say close to 400,000 people could be stranded in the city. There are an estimated 100,000 people without easy access to automobiles, and those who can drive may not be able to do so. During Hurricane Andrew, interstates throughout the South were brought to a standstill because simultaneous evacuations were taking place in several states. The only major planning improvement since then has been the decision to keep traffic away from the coast on both sides of evacuation routes.
hilzoy: the problem with Tad’s indignation is that it is so grossly selective, and that his (rather painfully obvious) principle of selection is his already well-known ideological stance.
And the problem with your posts is that you appear to be entirely indifferent to the fact that people are dying for lack of aid as we speak.
Ah. So all the local authorities knew that they were in imminent danger of disaster. They cried and they whined and they begged. But only the Feds could do anything about it. Alas, the Feds would do nothing. So what choice did the locals have?
Sounds to me like a pretty good argument for devolving power to the state and local level.
Groovy, hilzoy. So it’s your contention that things, left at (for instance) levels of funding established by the Clinton administration, would be a whole lot better right now? That things are as bad as they are simply because of who’s in the seat of power in DC? And you’re going to suggest this with what accompanying evidence?
I’m certain, for instance, that if Gore had followed Clinton in office, that New Orleans would now be high and dry, surrounded by its Category-5-resistant levees. Yes? Or is it that relief may have shown up sooner, if those repugnant Republicans hadn’t gutted…something or other?
Really, most people I don’t ask what their point is when they say things like this, because it’s mostly an exercise in opinion. Given that it’s you, though, I’m certain that there’s a very interesting pile of fact behind that opinion. Please share.
Slartibartfast–
This is much better. I think we’re making progress. Because I’m finally getting some straight answers from you.
You *do* think I was being excessively dramatic–fair enough.
And you *were* expressing amusement, but with the crucial distinction that your amusement was directed at me, rather than at the events in New Orleans.
Okay, that’s an important distinction. After all, I think it would be morally obtuse to find amusement from New Orleans’ plight. It is not *obviously* morally obtuse to find amusement at me–in fact, there are lots of times when I do things that are ludicrous or ridiculous, when being amused is exactly the right response.
But here’s what I don’t get: If you agree that New Orleans’ plight is no laughing matter, then why is my own reaction so excessive?
I’m going to reprint the final paragraph of my earlier post, and you tell me which part strikes you as “over-the-top rhetoric”, rhetoric which is somehow so disproportionate to the tragedy unfolding in New Orleans that even to *express* it is to make oneself a fit figure of ridicule. Here goes, and then you can tell me which line it is:
“But I am not a resident of Louisiana, and I’m not a resident of New Orleans. Instead, I am a resident of the United States, a citizen of America. I expect a *lot* better from my federal government, and when it has been gutted, underfunded, diverted, and destroyed, by malignant ideologues who care nothing for doing the real job of governing, then I think *those* are the government officials I should blame. And when those officials belong solely to one party, then I blame that party.”
You see, the good thing about talking with you, Slartibartfast, is that you *do* talk that language. It’s called English, and you are a competent speaker of it. So you can tell me exactly where in that statement you think my anger became so disproportionate to the “tragedy unfolding in New Orleans” as to make my anger amusing. And then I can try to tone it down a bit next time, calibrate the rhetoric to the situation a bit more precisely.
Because if you don’t think the tragedy is amusing–and you have said now that you don’t– then you might think some degree of anger is actually okay. Appropriate. Proportionate. Not itself an object of amusement. But if you think *any* degree of anger is just ludicrous, then–well, I find it hard to see how you could be taking the tragedy very seriously, either. I mean, I do not think it makes much sense to say “horrible things are happening, but anyone who expresses any degree of anger or despair over it is laughably over-reacting”.
Now–as to my opinion of you. It too turns on a distinction, which perhaps I did not make sufficiently clear, between your character, and your habits of writing.
From your comments on this blog I have reason to believe that you are a good husband, a loving father, a careful employee–in short, a decent person. Furthermore, you have the confidence of hilzoy, whose opinions as to character I trust a great deal.
However, the way that you write–the manner of your expression–leaves in its wake a constant trail of misunderstandings, crossed wires, and straw men. You know what a straw man is, don’t you? It’s when somebody misrepresents your position. When you find yourself constantly complaining about straw men, that means that you feel that people are constantly misrepresenting your position. And when it happens to someone as often as it happens to you, there is sometimes a very simple reason: it’s because you yourself are failing to represent your own position in any clear or determinate way.
So–I misrepresented your position above, because I accused you of expressing amusement at the plight of New Orleans, when you had only intended to express amusement at my own rhetoric. And now I see I’m guilty as charged–once the distinction is made clear to me, I see that what I said is not your position.
But did you make that distinction clear when you said:
“More drama, Tad. Emote! Give it to us!”
Was that making it clear that you find New Orleans a fit subject for grief, anger, pity and terror (a tragedy, as you said), but that you did not think my expression of it was proportionate?
No. You made a statement that allowed for misunderstandings, and the misunderstandings crowded in. You could have said something clear, that would have prevented that misunderstanding. You could have said, e.g.
“You know, Tad, I agree with you that there is a lot of scope for strong feeling in the day’s events, but I think your own rhetoric is getting a bit overheated. Esp. where you said that the federal govt has been “destroyed”–we could debate “underfunded”, but “destroyed” is just hyperbole”.
Then I never would have suggested that you were taking cool amusement at the plight of New Orleans. Voila–clear expression, no straw men.
But you did not. And it is characteristic of your style of writing that you do not. And that is an aspect of you that I cannot admire–one that, as I said, lowers you in my estimation.
Luckily, prose style is easy to improve. I think you showed great improvement just in your last few exchanges with me–from cryptic, allusive, and open to misunderstanding, to clearer and more explicit, with conscious attention to proper distinctions.
I apologize to all here for going on at length. When next you want to chide me, Slartibartfast, feel free to do it by email, and we can discuss it without disrupting the thread.
Or is it that relief may have shown up sooner, if those repugnant Republicans hadn’t gutted…something or other?
You know, Slart, given that what we rely on for disaster response is largely the National Guard, and that the National Guard is largely engaged overseas in a manner that it most probably would not have been were Bush not in power, I don’t think this is as self-evidently comic as you do.
LizardBreath: so let me get this straight.
When anti-Bush obsessors use this tragedy as just one more occasion to fly into their usual paroxysms of Bush-hating rage, that demonstrates their sensitivity to “the fact that people are dying for lack of aid as we speak.”
When people not on the left question whether Bush is really the sole, or even the primary, locus of responsibility here, that demonstrates their indifference to same.
Riiight.
“And when those officials belong solely to one party, then I blame that party.”
I personally think that is a bit harsh on these Democrats.
Guess she should have thought longer on those priorities.
Senate:
President: Senator Donald E. Hines, M.D. (D)
President Pro Tempore: Senator Diana E. Bajoie (D)
House:
Speaker, LA House of Representatives: Joe R. Salter (D)
Speaker Pro Tempore: Rep. Yvonne Dorsey (D)
I thought trying to politicize God was the job of the fundamental Christians.
But, now it seems those on the left want insert God into politics.
Odd.
Do. Not. Feed. The. Effing. Trolls.
2shoes,
I mentioned that proposal, and a link for the article is here. As I understood it, the political will, which would be essentially sacrificing outlying neighborhoods to save the core of the city, was not there. Two other links discussing options discussed before the hurricane are below
A PBS transcript
“A couple of days ago,” explains Maestri, “We actually had an exercise where we brought a fictitious Category Five Hurricane into the metropolitan area.”
When the computer models showed Walter Maestri what would happen after a hurricane hit New Orleans, he wrote big letters on the map: “KYAGB—kiss your ass good bye.” Photo: William Brangham/NOW with Bill Moyers
The map is covered with arrows and swirls in erasable marker. They show how the fictitious hurricane crossed Key West and then smacked into New Orleans.
When the computer models showed Maestri what would happen next, he wrote big letters on the map, all in capitals.
“KYAGB—kiss your ass good bye,” reads Maestri.
This is interesting because the followup was to be a ‘wargame’ that would develop measures to deal with using the superdome, but this was cancelled when FEMA defunded it.
This is the Times-Picayune article on other options
I agree! I also think it’s morally…wrong, repugnant, pick your term…to leverage one’s political views into relative righteousness using a pile of dead bodies as a fulcrum.
See above. I also have this aversion to having Obsidian Wings turn into a festival of political shitslinging, but that’s more of a pet peeve.
I freely admit I suffer from inability to be clear; if you wish, I’ll append it to my name, or even tattoo it on my forehead. It’s something I struggle with, and attempt to overcome, and usually fail.
Steve Burton–
“When people not on the left question whether Bush is really the sole, or even the primary, locus of responsibility here, that demonstrates their indifference to same.”
Look, if you feel that I have been arguing that Bush is “the sole, or even the primary, locus of responsibility here”, then I have clearly not made myself clear, either, and I should apologize for it.
I do not believe that Bush created the hurricane. Nor do I believe that Bush located New Orleans below sea level.
Accordingly, we both agree that there are many, many factors that have gone into making the current tragedy. So we can dispose of that part of the argument, can’t we?
On the other hand, Bush has responsibilities. He has obligations to do his job, and to see that the government he heads does its job.
Had he done his job, and made sure that the government did its job, then the levees would have been higher. And the National Guard would have been available in greater numbers. And FEMA would not have been so woefully incompetent.
So, yes, I do think Bush is among the causal factors responsible for scope and magnitude of this tragedy.
Why might it seem that I am using this tragedy as “just one more occasion to fly into their usual paroxysms of Bush-hating rage”?
Well, because this is just one more occasion in which Bush had a job to do, and failed to do it. If this were the first time it happened, I might not be so ticked off. But it has been the story of his whole administration.
As is the familiar story that his loyal dead-enders will say anything, to make sure he never is held accountable for anything. Keep deflecting the blame–the buck surely stops somewhere else.
Do you have any evidence that we’re short on National Guard? Any at all?
Let’s all assume for the sake of argument — and I know it’s just so much crazy talk — that the FEMA defunding, folding into DHS, re-prioritization towards terrorism, and apparent lack of preparedness contributed in some small way to the magnitude of this disaster. I know, I know! CRAZY TALK! But let’s just assume it for shits and giggles. Who, then, Slarti, would be at the top of that decisionmaking chain? And what would the other links in that chain be?
Don’t we value Clinton’s opinion?
http://www.cnn.com
CLINTON: Yes, I think that’s important to point out. Because when you say that they should have done this, that or the other thing first, you can look at that problem in isolation, and you can say that.
But look at all the other things they had to deal with. I’m telling you, nobody thought this was going to happen like this. But what happened here is they escaped — New Orleans escaped Katrina. But it brought all the water up the Mississippi River and all in the Pontchartrain, and then when it started running and that levee broke, they had problems they never could have foreseen.
And so I just think that we need to recognize right now there’s a confident effort under way. People are doing the best they can. And I just don’t think it’s the time to worry about that. We need to keep people alive and get them back to life — normal life.
As I mentioned, my folks and brother’s family are ok, but if there are any people trying to find someone, a post on the blog I mentioned is given below. It’s the most exhaustive listing of contacts that I’ve seen
http://WWW.Wlox.com (Gulf Coast from Waveland to Pascagola, has forum to find survivors)
http://PicayuneKatrina.blogspot.com (For Pearl River Mississippi)
http://www.sunhearld.com (for entire Gulf Coast, also has forum for posting for survivors)
http://www.scipionus.com (maps with markers for all areas and only posted information-No Questions)
Search & Rescue-National Guard, will take your info and send it in to area to locate your family and call you back with results…1-601-360-0937 (Mississippi)
Red Cross accountability List of survivors-1-866-438-4636
And here are some recources from Major Craig Holman’s (here on Island),Mother out of Madison, Mississippi (GOD Bless her!)
Missing persons-1-866-453-1925
Miss 103 Radio Station- (very pro-Military) 1-601-982-1062
Wapt-TV, Jackson, Mississippi-1-601-922-1607
Ky3- Missouri-Posting forum for survivors and victims-
http://www.KY3.com
For New Orleans and Alabama…
* WDSU-TV and WDSU.com in New Orleans are helping survivors and has added
an “Are You OK?” page. Let your friends and family know you’re ok!
Those affected by Katrina and would like to send a message to loved ones,
please go to:
http://www.wdsu.com/news/4918877/detail.html
Messages from Katrina Survivors, please go to:
http://www.wdsu.com/news/4919183/detail.html
Please refer to the numbers below for more information about the area you
are in. WDSU.com is working around the clock bringing you the most updated
news for you. Thank you for contacting WDSU.com. We know you are concerned
and we are trying to help.
The following is a list of New Orleans Emergency phone numbers including the
(800) number for the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) along with
some web addresses which may also be useful to you.
ALABAMA EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY 1-205-280-2200
MISSISSIPPI EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY 1-800-222-MEMA
RED CROSS (next of kin) 1-866-GET-INFO
LOUISANA OFFICE OF HOMELAND SECURITY AND EMERGENCY PREPAREDNESS
1-225-925-7400
EMERGENCY RESOURCES
New Orleans Emergency Phone Numbers
For shelter information, call 1 (800) 469-4828; Web site
http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=36
Emergency Listings
Police, Fire & Medical Emergencies 911
Crescent City Connection Police (504) 364-8180
NOPD Non-Emergency (504) 821-2222
Louisiana State Police (504) 471-2775
Office of Homeland Security (504) 658-6900
Office Of Emergency Preparedness (504) 658-8700
Poison Control Center (800) 256-9822
Public Advocacy (504) 658-4015
FEMA: 1-800-621-FEMA (3362)
Red Cross: 1-800-HELP-NOW
American Red Cross: Southeast Louisiana Chapter: (800) 229-8191
From FEMA: How To Get Help (Link to http://www.fema.gov/about/process/
From FEMA: How To Help Link to
http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=18473
Kimberly Sheldon
Administrative Assistant / Receptionist
Internet Broadcasting
(651) 365-4000
Important Announcement for all AKO Users:
Click Here to Visit the AKO Hurricane Katrina Information Center
AKO is coordinating with Army organizations and federal agencies to provide the most up-to-date information on Hurricane Katrina to the Army community. Please check the AKO Hurricane Katrina Information Center regularly for the latest resources and news.
Announcement: The National Guard Bureau has asked families of deployed Army National Guard soldiers who have been affected by the hurricane to call the National Guard Bureau Family Program at 1-888-777-7731 to confirm their current location.
Is anyone seriously trying to make the case that states and localities are financialy responisible for major public works projects like the levees around NO? That’s a view Norquist might have, but everyone out here in the real world, including Republican governors, knows that states just don’t have the funding base for that. Levee maintainance was federally funded. Or at least federally funded until the funding was cut.
Looks like we found the culprits:
“A corps plan to shore up the levees began in 1965 and was supposed to be finished in 10 years but remains incomplete. “They’ve never put enough money in to complete it,” [former Congressman Michael] Parker said.
LBJ and Tip O’Neill, guilty?
Cite, please.
You’ve read the threads, Slarti. Don’t patronize me.
Slarti “Do you have any evidence that we’re short on National Guard? Any at all?”
Do you think that there may be perhaps a smidgen of order that might be lacking from the current situation, or perhaps some aid in the form of food and water that might be useful to remnants of NO? Perhaps the National Guard might have been useful in that regard? Regardless, something seems to have come up a bit short.
Slartibartfast: I also think it’s morally…wrong, repugnant, pick your term…to leverage one’s political views into relative righteousness using a pile of dead bodies as a fulcrum.
Sorry, Slarti, but 9/11 springs to mind.
You know, I don’t think it’s so much that FEMA bears no responsibility for its lack of preparedness for Katrina, as much as I think it’s likely that FEMA never was prepared for a Katrina.
Phil, I wouldn’t dream of patronizing you. It’s more that I have no idea what threads you’re talking about. Hence, the request for a cite.
This blog post on the most recent cuts in levee maintenance, may be apropos
This discussion of Times-Picayune articles on Federal spending priorities.
I thought hilzoy’s timing, discussing explanation versus justification, amazing, in that we are seeing half-baked explanations being passed off as justifications, but this guy’s timing is even better.
Do you have any evidence that we’re short on National Guard? Any at all?
The fact that there are apparently insufficient resources to bring order to NO? That’s the sort of thing the National Guard is supposed to be good for, isn’t it? Controlling looting, restoring public order? Maybe there are plenty of resources that that simply aren’t being used, but I have to tell you it looks as though a shortage of manpower and equipment is an issue.
Sorry, Slarti, but 9/11 springs to mind.
tu quoque?
You know what? Nevermind. I’m not going to play that game with you. You want to pretend you don’t read your own blog, fine. Enjoy.
Well, if it’s good enough for people that disgust you, who am I to naysay you?
What is it about evidence of egregious Bush administration charlie foxtrots that brings out the trolls and reflexive apologists in droves?
Oh yeah. Duh.
Why is it so important to establish at this moment that Bush bears the brunt of the blame for this? No doubt this is going to be studied extensively by all sides and there will at some point probably be enough facts available to apportion blame with a certain amount of confidence. Right now playing the blame game seems to be just another way to illustrate your existing political orientation.
Slarti, an earlier comment of mine cites something that seems to suggest that FEMA has dropped in its preparedness levels.
Can I suggest a new thread on disaster preparation? I would be interested to know what sort of preparations folks like you in Florida have done since last year. With my folks problems, I’m realizing that there is a lot more to be done that I haven’t even thought about, like copies of key legal documents and such.
Slarti, the fact is I agree with your comment. I was just pointing out that we’ve seen it before.
We put into power people who believe that the government should be dismantled. There is no basis to be surprised when they behave as expected. I can understand, for example, the random blogger confusing the Convention Center with the Superdome, but Michael Chertoff? The man in charge of Homeland Security, to whom FEMA reports? After three days?
Why is this a political issue? Ask yourself that question.
JFTR: if you look at the most recent LA state budget, as best as I can tell, approx. $50 million was devoted to programs that appear to be related to levees, flood control infrastructure, coastline management, and the like. That’s for everything in the entire state, and includes everything that looked like it would be related to the sorts of things we’re interested in on a budget line item.
As I recall, the remaining elements of the most recent Army Corps of Engineers project specifically devoted to levee construction/strengthening were projected to cost something like $150 million. The work that the Corps has been doing on flood control in SE LA over the last decade seems to have cost approx. $40 million a year.
When you consider that not quite 70% of the LA budget this year is devoted exclusively to health care, education, and social services, and that the budget must be (somehow) balanced, this does not seem like a situation where LA has lots of spare cash to devote to levees and the like. I could be wrong, of course. Steve, you want to take a crack at these numbers?
JFTR: if you look at the most recent LA state budget, as best as I can tell, approx. $50 million was devoted to programs that appear to be related to levees, flood control infrastructure, coastline management, and the like.
I got a number of google hits for levees in California and the majority of them were for agricultural/habitat levees for irrigation rather than for protective levees, so this figure should be reduced even further, making it an even smaller portion of the state budget.
A post on BoingBoing about how Cuba deals with hurricanes.
Tad Brennan, your contributions to this thread kicked off with attacks on Grover Norquist and like-minded “small-government zealots,” followed by “Reagan and his tax-cutting spawn” (as if the current administration showed the least sign of small-government zealotry!)
A truly bizarre ideological outburst.
One of the main points made over and over again by conservatives and libertarians is that big government does practically *everything* very badly and inefficiently. That is precisely why it should not be entrusted with anything unless there is absolutely no other realistic choice. (Foreign policy, for example). And things that *must* be done by government should be kept as close to the local level as possible.
We both look at the present situation and see the Federal Government responding badly and inefficiently. You are shocked. I am totally unsurprised.
Your solution, apparently, is to give the Feds even more money and power – and to put your team in charge.
But I am left wondering: what about the state and local authorities here? Are they just irrelevant? If they are just irrelevant, is that the fault of “small-government zealots” and Reagan’s “tax-cutting spawn?” *Should* they be irrelevant?
I don’t see any cheap points to be scored here at the expense of conservatives and libertarians.
“Why is it so important to establish at this moment that Bush bears the brunt of the blame for this?”
Wolcott Chides Armando
Because Bushco is very good at delay and distraction. Because the media has a short attention span.
I am actually not that worried. Bush will take a huge hit from all sides, I remember the sixties, and nothing excites the right like a black dude carrying a television. How could he let such lawlessness happen?
The left will be upset by the dead babies and grannies, but that is why we have two parties.
Gas lines, general inflation, a weakened economy will get the leftovers.
Levees fail. I’ve watched flood after flood in the CA central valley, and a Cat5 really was the worst anyone could imagine. Even though Katrina was only (only!) a Cat4 at landfall, it represented The Worst. I’m angry that the levees weren’t better shored up, but I’m much much much more pissed off at the lack of decent coordination in the efforts since the hurricane made landfall.
This afternoon I listened to this PRI program, To The Point. They had on a LSU professor who specialized in public health and hurricane response. The guy calmly pointed out that this is the peak time for West Nile Virus. He reminded listeners that survivors were going to have mental health problems, and that setting up any kind of structured daily existence for refugees was critical to try to prevent increases in alcoholism, spousal abuse, and clinical depression. He was urging anyone who would listen that the refugees needed a tent city or two.
On a more personal note, he added that people in his rural community–I think it was Louisiana, but it may have been Mississippi–had recently set up and were manning a roadblock to prevent people from coming in. He had had strangers show up at his house to beg for food and water (he seemed like a nice old geezer, so he probably gave them food and water rather than shooting them). His point there was that local sentiment outside the most damaged areas is turning Hobbesian.
It was incredibly sobering. This is day five, and I’m supposed to be happy that troops are “on their way”?
I’m cynical enough about government to be appalled but not entirely surprised that nobody got it together to prepare against the levees’ breaking. It was expensive, and the worst-case probably looked unlikely, at least for every elected official’s term.
But not to have any real response plan to what was, after all, a widely projected emergency? What the hell is that?
I read a CNN transcript exerpted at Digby’s about the conditions in the Ritz f’king Carleton where some 300 people are trapped. A visiting conference of Infectious Disease doctors had set up a mini-clinic to treat the cases of dysentery that were occuring. Think about that. Day five: dysentery at the Ritz Carleton, in the less damaged French Quarter. And from the stories I’m hearing about the more official gathering places, I’ll be astonished if we don’t hear later on about disease there, too: the plumbing in the Superdome has been out of order since, what, Tuesday? I heard on the radio today at around 2 that the DHS estimate then was that twenty-three thousand people were in the Superdome.
Unenforcable martial law, armed looters, totally preventable disease, refugee trains of pedestrians–I simply cannot believe this is happening in America. It’s terrifying.
You know, Phil, citing complaints by federal agency heads that their pet program has been cut sort of lacks the ring of authority. Can you tell me what you think the benefit might have been for New Orleans if, say, Project Impact were allowed to have continued? Would Project Impact have been able to raise all buildings above the highwater mark? Really, I’m not sure what your point is, here.
And it’s not as if FEMA is the seat of all government intellect, after all. I mean, these are the same guys who paid for hurricane damage sustained during Frances and Jeanne. In Miami. Where hurricanes missed, by a rather wide margin. This is the same FEMA that paid for funerals of people who happened to die during the hurricanes…of causes unrelated to the hurricanes. So forgive me for not believing in the ability of FEMA to choose wisely and correctly.
LJ, a thread on disaster preparedness is probably fertile ground, but my personal answer is: I have a generator, I have a stock of bottled water, and I have lumber ready at hand with which I can board up. That said, the hurricane threat in Central Florida bears almost zero resemblance to the threat to New Orleans. We’ve got hurricane evacuation routes, sure; so did New Orleans. I know nothing about whether mass transportation was ever an option here in sunny FL, though.
I did, after which I started asking others that question. So far, the answer is pretty much Bush sucks, and has ruined this country.
Steve,
I think you should consider that this thread is not an isolated one, but in some ways, a continuation of the previous 2 Katrina threads. I would especially recommend you read hilzoy’s previous and then explain how we should distinguish conservative thought expressed in the link hilzoy starts off with and the conservative and libertarian thought you mention.
I agree with your stream of consciousness musings. In addition, I’m not ready at this time to go into detailed comments about this and that. My question is, when will help arrive? All day today, from various sources, we’re being told that “help is on the way” (in a few more days). No one from a command-and-control venue, or anyone else for that matter, has provided ANY information to the people stranded at the New Orleans Convention Center, or to the media, or to the citizens of the world. When are the desperate people going to get some basic necessities such as shelter, food, water, and safety from gunfire/rape/rioting/snipers, etc. Who is going to answer those questions? Is anybody out there? Who’s in charge? This is very scary.
Bush sucks, and has ruined this country.
You have coined a new catch phrase! May it spread.
Mark: thank you for this interesting information.
Several posters above have indicated that things like flood-control levees are the sole responsibility of the federal government, and that the state could not get involved even if it wanted to. At least one poster has called me a “troll” for not “comprehending” such things.
But if I understand you correctly, it would seem that the State of Lousiana *does* in fact spend many millions of dollars on such programs.
Apparently not enough, alas.
The 30% of the yearly budget not devoted to “health care, education and social services” would amount to about $5 billion. In retrospect, 10% of one years budget might have been a good investment. What a pity that the Lousiana State Legislature did not enjoy the sort of 20/20 foresight that some are now blaming the Bush administration for lacking.
Steve, this is about as plain as I can put it:
the incomptence of the State of Louisiana DOES NOT excuse the incompetence of FEMA.
Slarti: get some sleep; you’re beginning to free-associate. alternatively, you’re getting extremely defensive. i’m thrilled you’re wealthy enough to invest in your own private generator. are you planning on offering it to a needy NO family?
now, as to some legitimate questions:
1. where the [obscenity] are the troops? when los angeles was hit by a major earthquake we had men in green with guns riding around the NEXT day.
2. who’s at fault for the lack of Nat’l Guard troops? the governor, the president, the war in Iraq, all of the above?
3. a major conclusion of 9/11 was the weakness in communication systems. i can understand that local and state officials haven’t updated their systems, but it appears that FEMA has no better idea what’s going on. Why is FEMA not equipped with satellite phones, or some other system that would still be working?
Steve — once again, the resemblance between the hurricane’s impact on NO and a sophisticated terrorist attack on a major city is compelling. what the [obscenity] has DHS/FEMA been doing for the last 4 years, if not preparing for an attack deliberately designed to overwhelm local responders?
On a more personal note, he added that people in his rural community–I think it was Louisiana, but it may have been Mississippi–had recently set up and were manning a roadblock to prevent people from coming in.
I think it was Louisiana, as there are not a lot of refugees headed out east and at least one span of the I-10 bridge over Lake Ponchartrain is impassable and the other, I believe, can only handle foot traffic. This WaPo article details some of the problems that Baton Rouge is facing and these problems are probably worse for the smaller towns that surround NO. However, it’s my understanding that the towns around NO have really done their best to accept people, but their patience is getting strained, so one can sadly expect a backlash. Unfortunately, the politics of New Orleans is going to result in a lot of strife and it is going to be interesting (in a watching a train wreck sort of way) to see how questions of compensation and subsidies are going to take place.
I also have to admit that I have had a bad taste in my mouth about Texas (in no small part due to my politics, I suppose) but they have gone above and beyond the call, I think.
Unfortunately, Florida (sorry Slart) or at least some hoteliers in Tallahasee, have not covered themselves in glory on this, though I may be influenced by the coverage I am receiving in Japan and the differing effects of the hurricane in LA and MS.
Slarti: get some sleep; you’re beginning to free-associate. alternatively, you’re getting extremely defensive. i’m thrilled you’re wealthy enough to invest in your own private generator. are you planning on offering it to a needy NO family?
Francis, I admit to being taken aback by Slarti’s flippancy a bit, but I don’t think that is very fair. I specifically asked him what sort of preparations he had made. I think there is a good discussion about what would be the appropriate amount of budget that people should be expected to pay for this sort of protection, but I don’t think this is the way I would like the discussion to start.
Regarding preparedness, this post at Making Light might be a good place to start for suggestions. The New York Office of Emergency Management also has some suggestions about what should go into a Go Bag. They’re all pretty sensible suggestions.
(For NYC readers, the OEM link also offers an interactive guide to your hurricane storm-surge zone: enter your address, get your threat-level. I am informed that I am at minimal threat for surge, but in the event of an evacuation emergency, I should have my route planned, listen to the news, and call 311 to find my local reception center. This is a pretty well-modelled city for disasters, but I don’t exactly feel reassured about this advice.)
Francis, yes, it seems like a couple of well-placed bombs on those levees would have been a very effective terrorist attack. I would have thought (wished?) this would be an analyzed scenario by now, considering that there have been numerous studies, articles, and reports about exactly this danger.
Was there some reason we created a Department of Homeland Security? Someone remind me.
Sorry about the broken tag.
Steve: Maybe yes, maybe no. I didn’t examine the state budget in detail: I simply went to the agency level line-items and added up everything that looked like it _could_ be flood/levee/coastline related. As liberal_japonicus pointed out, this means the estimate I gave above is probably high.
In defense of the LA state government, I do have to wonder where that spare $1.7 billion you’re talking about is supposed to come from, especially when you consider mandatory budget balancing.
In terms of foresight: as best as I can tell, the LA pols who really deserve the criticism are the NO officials who came up with the ludicrous evacuation “plan,” complete with putting people in the Superdome without sufficient supplies of food and water. Oops.
On the other hand, what I’ve seen Bush criticized for is a) cutting FEMA and Army Corps of Engineers budget requests for flood/levee control b) turning the upper ranks of FEMA into a patronage mill, c) not cutting his vacation (and other plans) short until well _after_ the hurricane had struck, d) not pre-positioning rescue personnel, vehicles, ships, etc (why is a hospital ship leaving _tomorrow_?), e) saying this morning that the level of flooding we’re seeing was unforeseen. I’ve seen references to at _least_ half a dozen articles published within the last five years that predicted precisely what we’re seeing now, in terms of flooding.
None of those criticisms, from my vantage point, require an unusual level of foresight on the part of Bush or his administration, any more than criticizing the apparently extremely poor job of planning done by Mayor Nagin asks too much of his capacity for foresight.
I bought my own private generator because I’d just been through one hurricane-induced power outage, and there was another hurricane bearing down on us. I’d hate to imagine someone trying to crank one up under a few feet of water.
But I am considering donating several days of my time; just got off the phone with my pastor a couple of hours ago and our synod has a team that’s just arrived in Mobile. Not in NO itself, mind you, because, well, I don’t think even the aid organizations are going there yet.
How about you? Wanna come along? If I go, I mean? Company would be nice.
Given my penchant for flippancy….hell, I give up. Where? And yes, I should really go to bed.
I also think that it is reasonable to ask that Secretary Chertoff and Director Brown not tell obvious untruths about the state of affairs in the Superdome and the Convention Center. It seems particularly self-defeating when there are multiple reporters onsite who can testify to the true state of affairs, but maybe that’s just me.
And, anticipating the objections of the esteemed Mr. Farber, “….” should have read “…”. My apologies.
You know, I went out to have a few beers and try not to remember that THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ARE DEAD as a result of this storm. And I come back to this crap. The powers that be have had the better part of a week to get water, food, and medicine into the area and have failed miserably. And we put them in charge. I don’t want arguments, excuses, justifications. I want someone’s ass on a spit!
Since we, as a nation, have just shown that we can’t provide basic security for our citizens in a time of need, we have failed. All of us. Period. Just stop the snark, all of you, please, for the love of whatever you hold dear.
Steve Burton:
You make a good point that politicians of both parties share blame. Both parties should be taken down hard, as in political chaos, nationwide. Different reasons for each in my mind, but the Democrat’s sin is cowardice.
To the point, in my mind, of stripping the Federal government of all power and authority, so that we may experiment, in the vacuum left, with the absence of what you have characterized as the Federal government’s gross, eternal, and steadfast incompetence.
On a personal note, besides the fact that my wife is an enormously competent Federally employed scientist, who has been asked, along with her colleagues, to examine some of the wetland problems in the Delta, and whose cute ass you can get down on your knees and kiss with my permission; … I take unbrage at the idea that you have impugned the fine and talented and competent work Slartibartfast has done as a private contractor for the Federal government in protecting not only my wife’s aforementioned cute one but also your ungrateful butt from foreign missile attacks.
Although I’d like to see a little more progress on the SDI, so get cracking Slart. 😉
Slart: I APOLOGIZE.
yup. i was flat wrong and insulting to boot. while i find your writing style can be extraordinarily aggravating, i had no call to say what i did.
please accept my sincerely offered apology.
100 Dead at Chalmette Slip
“About 100 people have died at the Chalmette Slip after
being pulled off their rooftops, waiting to be ferried
up the river to the West Bank and bused out of the
flood ravaged area, U.S. Rep. Charles Melancon,
D-Napoleonville, said Thursday.”
JerryN says pretty much what I want to, but I’m going to try for my own words anyhow.
I would like to have seen a really effective response in New Orleans, partly because all levels of government are supposed to have been taking threats to infrastructure and such more seriously since 9/11. I’d have liked to see local, state, and federal forces mobilized effectively to rescue people, keep them safe, and get started in on repairs ASAP. I’d have liked them to be rolling before the hurricane hit so as to be on the spot, with backups ready as needed. All of that would have made me proud and happy.
As it is, I see above all else a massive failure of leadership. Why the hell didn’t these people have good lines of communication and know how to use them, and then actually use them? I’d like to see investigations and punishment for folks at every level, once the immediate crises is over. I’d also like to see someone – anyone – step up right now and provide the leadership that obviously isn’t there right now.
I feel a particular interest in the federal response because I’m a citizen of the federal government, but not of the state of Louisiana, so when the president makes promises to all of us, that includes me. We were told the nation would be getting ready for disasters on this scale. It isn’t. This doesn’t mean that there aren’t also serious grievances against the state and local authorities, just that I personally don’t have a stake in them. The next big disaster could have been the eruption of Mt. Rainier (which would affect me as I live in Seattle) or a major earthquake in San Francisco (where I have friends), and I wouldn’t want them to suffer the way the people in the Gulf coast are suffering now. I want this kind of inadequate response nailed as a risk to us all, because it is – every American ought to be able to say, and believe with good reason, “The Feds will back us up even if the locals let us down.” That’s what federal authority is for, or should be, in a lot of cases.
Most of all I want my fellow Americans not to be in the sort of hell that tens of thousands are right now. I want them safe and out. Then I want the physical damage dealt with. And then I want to see what it takes to get a better response next time.
Slarti, if you’re still up, I just got back and read the thread. As to this: “So it’s your contention that things, left at (for instance) levels of funding established by the Clinton administration, would be a whole lot better right now? That things are as bad as they are simply because of who’s in the seat of power in DC? And you’re going to suggest this with what accompanying evidence?
I’m certain, for instance, that if Gore had followed Clinton in office, that New Orleans would now be high and dry, surrounded by its Category-5-resistant levees. Yes? Or is it that relief may have shown up sooner, if those repugnant Republicans hadn’t gutted…something or other?”
Things would be better? I think so. Things are as bad as they are, etc.? Yes. High and dry? Of course not. (Straw man.) Relief would have shown up sooner? Yes.
As I said earlier, I haven’t gotten to the articles about what might have been done differently, for the most part. I have, however, read a few today, like this one:
I got that link from this post by Kevin Drum, which also cites someone who has written on FEMA saying:
Now: it could be that Bush’s campaign manager and the OK lawyer were, in fact, stellar appointments: people whose innate knack for disaster management more than made up for their lack of experience. And it could also be that the fact that FEMA has lost its mission and is, by all accounts, a demoralized agency, was not a problem, since some other agency had taken over all the relevant responsibilities and done stellar planning and preparation. The proof, naturally, is in the pudding.
With this in mind, I watched the news today, and saw that despite this catastrophe having been predicted forever, despite Katrina in particular having been projected to hit NO as a cat 5 hurricane, despite the fact that a number of models had shown that under circumstances a lot like ours, the levees would fail, and despite the fact that, as noted, dealing with this is a lot like dealing with some kinds of terrorist attacks, which one would hope DHS has been preparing to do, four days after the hurricane hit there were very few Nat. Guard people or police, no food and water for tens of thousands of people, evacuation was only beginning, etc., etc., etc.
And: if the people who didn’t have food and water were all scattered in isolated homes and apartment buildings, that would be one thing. But when the second largest crowd in the city, at the Convention Center, has no water for four days, no medical care, no evacuation, and people literally dying on the street, and also extensive news coverage, so ignorance is not a possible excuse — then I have to think that something went badly wrong in the planning for all of this. — I said earlier that there were some mistakes that were too big to be excused; I can’t really imagine how not providing at least water, air-dropped if need be, to the thousands of people at the convention center while they were dying on national television could be excusable.
Given that FEMA has done very poorly, as far as I can tell, after being underfunded and staffed and managed by political appointments, and given that it was managed by professionals under Clinton, I’d say yes, things would have been better under another President. Not perfect, but not this bad.
Hmmmm. Much talk of “asses” all of a sudden. To be spitted or to be kissed. Time to bow out, I guess.
Bruce, hilzoy: thanks for being more patient and coherent than I had the capacity for.
Steve: since I pled for no snark, I can only bid you farewell.
Francis, good show.
Generally, let’s not take out our frustration etc on each other, however tempting it is.
Let me suggest we take out our frustration on Pat Robertson.
Incidentally why did I see so few posts around the ‘sphere about the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza?
An interesting place to start reading on the Gaza withdrawal is The Head Heeb”: liberal pro-Israel main commenter, insanely diverse and informed coverage of international affairs. Comment threads are as polite as possible for I-P discussions.
Yes, that was the first place I went. Seems like the generalist blogs didn’t care, though.
The Romeo Charlie Foxtrot continues. From CNN at 12:46AM EDT: Officials at the Astrodome in Houston, Texas, saying the facility has reached capacity, have stopped accepting refugees from flooded New Orleans.
Exhausted evacuees who had traveled more than 300 miles on buses to be housed at the Astrodome were turned away late Thursday and diverted elsewhere.
Words fail. To bed …
Incidentally why did I see so few posts around the ‘sphere about the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza?
Speaking only for myself, I had no bloody idea what it meant, only that it was Important in some vaguely-defined Important way, and couldn’t think of a damn thing to say. I’m guessing the same held true of others.
And how is alt.be-nice-to-rilkefan treating you?
Crap, forgot to include this in the previous post:
Generally, let’s not take out our frustration etc on each other, however tempting it is.
Yes. Let us instead be excellent to one another.
From the same article, the current rough estimate for the crowd in the Superdome is “up to 30,000 people.” This number has has fluctuated between 15000 and 30000 in news estimates today, and I’m really afraid that nobody even knows how many are in there–in the official collection point.
Rilkefan, I suspect more generalist bloggers tended to support the pullout but were nervous about opening up I-P threads.
“how is alt.be-nice-to-rilkefan treating you?”
Lying down on the job – no free house in SF, Mrs. R. heartsick about NO, probably going to have to look for a new job when my current project ends, …
I’d like to also highly recommend Jonathan Edelstein’s HeadHeeb as one of the very best blogs for coverage of international developments in small and obscure countries, that there is. Thoughtful and careful in his coverage, he is.
>>New York City has about 26 million people per square mile, and Manhattan has 60+ million per square mile.
Katherine, I can’t believe people read past this statistic without loud alarms going off. Are you saying that Manhattan has a population of 1.4 billion people? Or that Manhattan is only one-fortieth of a sq. mile?
Manhattan: roughly 1.5 million people; roughly 24 sq. miles. Looks to me more like 60,000 per sq. mile.
Jesus H. Christ. It’s like talking to a ping pong ball. Try to focus, Slarti:
1. I asked you a direct question: “Assuming the FEMA defunding, restrucuring and reprioritizing played a part in the scale of this disaster, who would have been responsible for those things?”
2. You get no further than “defunding” before asking for a cite.
3. I provide you with a cite to establish the factual basis of the defunding.
4. Rather than simply answer the question, you go off on a tangent, to wit: You know, Phil, citing complaints by federal agency heads that their pet program has been cut sort of lacks the ring of authority. Are you still questioning the factual basis for the defunding, or . . . ? If not, then just please answer the question.
Can you tell me what you think the benefit might have been for New Orleans if, say, Project Impact were allowed to have continued? Would Project Impact have been able to raise all buildings above the highwater mark? Really, I’m not sure what your point is, here.
It’s like I didn’t even write, “Let’s assume for the sake of argument . . . ”
And it’s not as if FEMA is the seat of all government intellect, after all. I mean, these are the same guys who paid for hurricane damage sustained during Frances and Jeanne. In Miami. Where hurricanes missed, by a rather wide margin. This is the same FEMA that paid for funerals of people who happened to die during the hurricanes…of causes unrelated to the hurricanes. So forgive me for not believing in the ability of FEMA to choose wisely and correctly.
Er . . . Frances and Jeanne occurred in 2004, well after the exact defunding, restructuring, reprioritizing and mis-staffing we’re talking about here. But, thanks for actually making my point for me.
Some fresh reports.
Notice the part in my montage where it turns out that FEMA dithered for days about the levee breach, and it’s been fixed by a private contractor, Boh Bros., just driving in and doing it. On their own.
As I said: !!!
Kathryn Cramer is covering the satellite photo situation.
Catsy: What is it about evidence of egregious Bush administration charlie foxtrots that brings out the trolls and reflexive apologists in droves?
Funny, I thought the unwarranted criticism and immediate blame of Bush was reflexive.
I guess we live in a world of one way streets.
Hilzoy: Given that FEMA has done very poorly, as far as I can tell, after being underfunded and staffed and managed by political appointments, and given that it was managed by professionals under Clinton
I take it you don’t live in Florida. Anyone who lived in Florida could tell you that is incorrect. Hurricane relief was significantly better under Bush than Clinton.
Hilzoy: As I said earlier, I haven’t gotten to the articles about what might have been done differently
And God’s quarterback just showed up for the game.
Slartibartfast: And, anticipating the objections of the esteemed Mr. Farber
I think he is busy linking to himself.
I heard “TAXES = THEFT”!
Accepted with gratitude, but not necessary. I took it as just a little barbed snark.
WonderWhy: Funny, I thought the unwarranted criticism and immediate blame of Bush was reflexive.
Actually, what was reflexive was – as you might notice if you read the reactions to this thread was “what can we do?” and “how awful”.
As for “unwarranted criticism”… I do wonder, sometimes, what Bush’s diehard supporters would consider warranted criticism. But then I look at behavior by the Bush administration (such as this horrifying failure to respond adequately to a long-predicted natural disaster) that apparently does not warrant criticism, and I don’t really want to know.
yeah, I meant 26 and 65 thousand.
Having just watched my President address the nation, looking like a lost child, spewing nothing but platitudes, while people are dying of dehadration and lack of medical care, I’m enraged. This is an absolute disgrace.
True, but you’d expect it to be. I don’t think this says as much positive about Bush as you’d like, though.
hilzoy, I’m not ignoring your post, just am temporarily work-buried.
Holy crap, Gary. !!! indeed.
What Slarti said.
Only he wasn’t very specific, was he? I think he might have meant this. Or perhaps this?
Wow. Thanks for the links, Radish. I’ll say hurricane relief in Florida is good: now I wonder if the victims of Katrina in states where the governor isn’t the President’s brother are going to get that kind of compensation?
Again, quickly dodging in:
It’s not so much that FEMA shone during Florida’s hurricanes so much as the state of Florida had its act together and proactively dealt with the storms. FEMA did a decent job a while after the storms passed, blue-tarping roofs and taking care of those in real need of shelter and supplies. I can’t see that FEMA has ever been much of a proactive organization, although they did spend some money putting on the appearance of proactivity.
Again, though, short of putting all of New Orleans on stilts, nothing that FEMA was doing that was cut by Bush would have made much difference, and I think it’s safe to say that FEMA didn’t have any urgent push in the works for doing anything like that.
Made a difference before the levees broke? Possibly not. Made a difference in the last four days? One wonders.
And, BTW, radish’s links are smack-on. I alluded to this earlier, maybe on another, related thread, and I believe I linked to it months ago, but the fact remains that FEMA did give people money in areas that weren’t affected by the hurricanes.
And, so far, I don’t believe FEMA actually has anything like a major disaster that they’ve done anything like a solo act handling. If I could find a charter for them somewhere, I could decide whether we’re getting our money’s worth.
This sentiment has been expressed by a number of different people in a number of different fora, so the fact that I’m quoting Slarti here is something of a coincidence:
I agree! I also think it’s morally…wrong, repugnant, pick your term…to leverage one’s political views into relative righteousness using a pile of dead bodies as a fulcrum.
This is simply false. Typical examples: the Holocaust, the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, the Irish Potato Famine and so forth.
Natural disasters are a little trickier, but I think one can make legitimate political arguments about the following (to pick a random sample): the Lisbon earthquake, the Xmas tsunami, Mt St Helens (I think, don’t remember clearly), Mt Pinatubo, and doubtless myriad others.
The fact of the matter is that mass death is perhaps the single most appropriate prompter of political debate since — and this is the crux that we keep (deliberately?) forgetting — politics is the means whereby we try to prevent those deaths in the future. Heck, it’s practically the definition of politics. If a particular ideology or faction was responsible for a large number of deaths, it’s entirely correct and proper to criticize them for that; heck, to not criticize them is to become complicit in their wrongdoing!
Now obviously people’s assessments of who is to blame and in what measure will differ, and I’m not saying that if I find a particular group culpable and you don’t that you’re somehow complicit in their crimes. Far from it. What I am saying is that this notion of “fairness” and “nonpartisanship” is bunk, code for “preserving those guilty from being held accountable” hidden under fine language and rank cowardice, and we need to stop wringing our hands at legitimate criticism simply because it offends our delicate, fake-moderate sensibilities.
[Once again, Slarti’s post was the prompting of this response; it’s not particularly directed at him.]
I disagree, but this is one of those places where disagreement between sane people is possible. Not laying claim to sanity, mind you.
code
bunk!
And the rest, well, I think you have something of a point, but I think what you said largely ignores the word political.
I don’t know from budgets and numbers and such, so don’t ask for any cites. And I have never liked Bush, so you can factor that in too.
My question is: 4 years after 9/11 and the declaration of GWOT and all the duct-tape and plastic sheeting “preparation for attack”, why should the current performance of the Bush team be expected to inspire me with the confidence that they could actually handle another attack by terrorists?
I disagree, but this is one of those places where disagreement between sane people is possible. Not laying claim to sanity, mind you.
I’ve always wondered whether it’d be possible to claim-jump someone’s sanity…
And the rest, well, I think you have something of a point, but I think what you said largely ignores the word political.
I don’t think it does; rather, what I’m arguing is that the word “political” has become sufficiently debased that we forget it has an actual meaning, and likewise that the notion of “political” has an actual application in times of crisis.
Which, hopefully, isn’t anywhere near “opportunism”.
“It is indeed to be hoped,” he said hopefully.
Which, hopefully, isn’t anywhere near “opportunism”.
I have no problem for someone with better ideas and greater competency ousting those with worse ideas and lesser competency, especially after a catastrophe like this one, so in that sense, yes, it could well be considered opportunistic. And more power to them.
After reading some of the previous postings, there is a correctness in what was said, but in retorspect, how can you expect our government to respond to an emergency, here, in a manner that would satisfy you, when our government is so overwhelmed with trying to take care of our own as well as abroad. This is a situation of astronomical proportions that no one but FEMA could have forseen. FEMA has ran the simulations of just this scenerio, but they were still not ready or prepared for this kind of disaster. I, myself, am from the Gulfport area, but have moved to Wyoming. I am currently a contractor wanting to volunteer time and equipment, but cannot get ahold of anyone to be able to do this. I love the people of the area and my heart and prayers go out to all the victims of this terrible disaster. I could have been there just as easily as anyone involved with this terrible tragedy. My problem is as yours, I want to help but am not getting any information on how to. I will not do as many did with Hurricane Andrew, I will not show up as a gypisy and try and take advantage of an already bad situation. To all of you, that have endured this, our hearts and prayers are with you.