Israeli British Politics Open Thread

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UPDATE: rilkefan is temporarily unable to comply with the request below, and as Britain is poised to render its judgment on Tony Blair’s Labour government, I thought it better to change countries. Ahh, what the hay…Open thread for whatever ails ya.

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A while back, constant reader rilkefan and I disagreed passionately about a move Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon had made. This surprised me because rilkefan and I are usually on the same side of most arguments (although most of the argument centered on my equating Sharon with "Israel"). Today, Sharon made an announcement that rilkefan suggests supports his case…I’m a bit too mushy-brained at the moment to connect the dots, so I’m opening up a thread to allow rilkefan to explain:

I think I can claim some vindication in re a recent religio-political argument with Edward_ about whether Sharon’s announced planned construction between Jerusalem and Ma’ale Adumim was an empty temporary political promise.

Everyone else should feel free to join in, but let’s limit this open thread to Israeli politics (including US involvement), but try to avoid the thread-worn arguments offered by either side when the topic comes up. I’ll do my best to avoid equating "Israel" with any individual, especially when that individual is a politician.

23 thoughts on “<strike>Israeli</strike> British Politics Open Thread”

  2. So rilkefan thinks that Sharon putting more facts on the ground in Ariel strengthens his case that Maale Adumim is just a political ploy on Sharon’s part?

  3. Praktike, what was that article you sent me on Sharon a month or two ago? It’d be an interesting (depressing) jumping off point for discussion but I seem to have deleted the email.
    I’m rooting for the Lib-Dems to beat the Tories. Got to keep up my nearly perfect record of rooting for the losing party in every election. I mean, Hamid Karzai won, and I didn’t really have any horse in Iraq except a distrust of Allawi & a safe smooth election, so those worked out, and then there’s Ukraine of course, but otherwise I’m working on quite a streak.

  4. Umm, praktike, I think when I predict that x will happen, and x and y happen, where y is not x, that that counts as “some vindication”. You want to argue about y, go ahead, but don’t pretend it’s x when it’s not.

  5. Michael Howard may lose his seat to a Liberal Democrat: if he does, I think it may be the first time the Leader of the Opposition has ceased to be the LotO because he lost his seat.
    Incidentally, did you know he’s a vampire?

  7. “I think it may be the first time the Leader of the Opposition has ceased to be the LotO because he lost his seat.”
    In the UK!
    Poor Tom. I miss the ethanol pandering already.

  8. rilkefan, I thought you predicted that x would happen, and then pointed to y happening as a vindication of your x-related prediction.
    What am I missing here?

  10. “rilkefan, I thought you predicted that x would happen, and then pointed to y happening as a vindication of your x-related prediction.”
    praktike and Edward, please note that I or ObWi’s comment code seems to have screwed up my link – here is what I was referring to:

    In other words, a bit like the vaunted Ma’ale Adumim construction, which Sharon trumpeted loudly before the budget vote but which has now been put off until at least 2007.

    Busy day. Inrush current: not a good thing. Blogging while writing poorly-specified state machines: really not a good thing.

  11. “In other words, a bit like the vaunted Ma’ale Adumim construction, which Sharon trumpeted loudly before the budget vote but which has now been put off until at least 2007.”
    The proposed Maaleh Adumim expansion (E-1 plan to connect MA to East Jerusalem) was NEVER slated to start immediately. So, to say that it was “put off” is a bit inaccurate.
    If you scroll down in that CT thread – you’ll see further discussion and elaboration on this point. Reasonable and informed people have different opinions as to what Sharon’s intentions are re. connecting Maaleh Adumimim to East Jerusalem.
    Many believe whether it goes ahead or not depends on whether the US decides to “lay down the law” in a substantive way. I’m not optimistic in that regard.

  13. I think this might be of interest

    Greek Orthodox Church leaders in Jerusalem have broken off contact with their local leader, Patriarch Irineos, and say they regard him as dismissed.
    The move stems from a dispute over the sale of church land in East Jerusalem, which has angered Palestinians.

    Not meant to fall on either side, just thought was interesting in light of this. Whatta mess.

  14. I guess this is an Israeli thread after all, but the results from England look about as well as could be expected: The Tories are picking up the seats but in many places it’s because the LibDems are picking up Labour’s votes. (Tories got +.5%, LibDems got +4.2%). And the LibDems are picking up more seats than expected, but they’re picking them up from Labour and losing to the Tories.
    The Tories are gaining a lot of seats & will surely claim victory, but for goodness sake, they’ve got 30.5% of the vote; how are you going to govern with that?
    The consensus view seems to be, the real loser is Blair and the real winner is Brown.

  15. Labour just reached their minimum seats to win. They’ve been stung for sure; every major cabinet member has sung the plus points (revolving around the phrase I know we’re going to hear a lot of: ‘an historic third term’) while behaving quite soberly, and conceding that the british people wanted to return them, but with a smaller majority.
    (I always find this a bit weird – I mean, when you go in and vote, you return a single value to a single person. I can register a vote for Labour, but not the degree to which I want them to succeed – that can only be decided by the aggregate, surely?)
    Anyway, not too shabby, lets see how blair forms the govt now. And, thank god, at 4.30, I can go to bed….

  18. Use the McDonalds technique.
    A bare win is a mandate, a modest majority is a Supermandate, and a large majority is a Megamandate.
    Of course, a Rice or Clinton victory would have to be a Superwomandate.

  19. The Northern Ireland results are coming in, and it looks like a bloodbath for the Ulster Unionists. Of the 5 seats declared already which they held before the election, they’ve lost 4 of them. If my memory that this is the Ian Paisley wing of the Unionists is correct, I am happy to see this.

  21. praktike, no one’s asking you to be blindly trustful – just to weigh the likelihood an announced action will take place taking into account the political situation in view of the historical record, to hold off condemnation for the proposed action until it is actually likely – and to acknowledge that the Palestinian leadership is astute enough to do so. That’s what I was arguing in the earlier thread.

  22. Of course, a Rice or Clinton victory would have to be a Superwomandate.
    I believe the technical term is either a “Supergirldate” or a “Wonderwomandate”.

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