Kerry’s going to take a bit of heat from my side of the spectrum for this exchange:
DAUM: You have said, “Stay the course.” George Bush calls the people there “thugs;” you call them “extremists.” But they hated Saddam Hussein, and they now hate us. They wanted Saddam Hussein out. Now they want the United States out. And you say, “Stay the course.” What the United States is doing is bombing hospitals, bombing mosques, sniping at civilians, killing hundreds of civilians, wounding thousands of civilians. And you say, “Stay the course.” Is that the criminal course that you want to stay? This is an imperialist country that’s fighting an imperialist war. You say, “Stay the course of this imperialist war,” and you say you are a stark difference from George Bush. People hate George Bush. By the end of your presidency people will hate you for the same thing. You may fool some of the Americans that you are different from George Bush on this war, but you’re not fooling most of the world and you’re going to fool Iraqis.
KERRY: I have consistently been critical of how we got where we are, but we are where we are, sir. And it would be unwise beyond belief for the United States of America to leave a failed Iraq in its wake. And I want the Americans out, and so do Americans want —
DAUM: No you don’t. You say, “Stay the course,” senator.
KERRY: Let me just finish. Stay the course of leaving a stable Iraq.
KERRY: If you don’t leave a stable Iraq with a legitimacy to whatever entity is going to transform the government, you have the potential for a civil war, you have the potential for Shi’a vs. Sunni vs. Kurd. There are all kinds of potentials. Let me just finish.
DAUM: They are united against the occupation.
KERRY: Yes, but…but…but the point is this, sir. You’re not listening to me.
DAUM: Oh, yes, I am.
KERRY: Well, then you haven’t, frankly, listened, because in fact the course that I have proposed is to you turn over to the United Nations the full responsibility for the transformation of the government and for the reconstruction.
Another variant of this found here – anyway, I would say that Senator Kerry was not so much accepting Daum’s major premise as choosing to sprint past it in lieu of telling the man that Daum was a barking moonbat. There is no way to debate somebody like Daum; he walked into that meeting knowing what he knew, by God, and there wasn’t anything sane that Kerry could have said to make the heckler change his mind*. The wise thing to do in cases like this is to get to and stay on your message** just as quickly as you can, for the sake of getting through to all those people with positions somewhere between you and your heckler. IOW, It seems a tad unfair to hold the Senator to what were essentially soothing noises made while looking for a nice rock to throw, especially since the really damning stuff would be inferenced, not stated.
Mind you, if Kerry ever voluntarily and explicitly declares that we’re an imperialist country fighting an imperialist war, all of this flies out the window.
Moe
*Judgment call, I admit, but to me it seems clear that from where Daum sat Kerry and Bush are essentially identical… and that Daum was only there to yell at Kerry. His privilege to do both, of course; it’s my privilege to call him a wingnut in response. Nice and neat.
**Bear in mind that I don’t agree with Kerry about handing anything over to the UN bureaucrats, but that’s another issue entirely.
Mind you, if Kerry ever voluntarily and explicitly declares that we’re an imperialist country fighting an imperialist war, all of this flies out the window.
Yes, but will that be enough guarantee him the VRWC vote? 😉
I would say that Senator Kerry was not so much accepting Daum’s major premise as choosing to sprint past it in lieu of telling the man that Daum was a barking moonbat.
And you gotta admit, it was a good sprint.
“And you gotta admit, it was a good sprint.”
Oh, I’ll readily enough grant that Kerry picked up rhetorical points for his use of ‘sir’ in his reply. Don’t know how it sounded, but on print it worked pretty well.
Bear in mind that I don’t agree with Kerry about handing anything over to the UN bureaucrats, but that’s another issue entirely.
Hmmm…you might just be a bit out of sync with the Administration then Moe…looks like they’re moving toward that…
U.S. Open to a Proposal That Supplants Council in Iraq
Good point. Sometimes bloggers forget that the world is not a blog. The first time a major public figure calls someone an “idiotarian,” watch for projectile vomiting.
The question Edward, is what are they going to do with the interim constitution.
The question, Timmy, is whether the US can any longer “ensure” anything….
On Kerry
Moe Lane disagrees with my interpretation of the Kerry vs heckler exchange. Lane writes: would say that Senator Kerry was not so much accepting Daum’s major premise as choosing to sprint past it in lieu of telling the man that
I read the article, Timmy…perhaps you can clarify your statement.
Eddie, you should go out an buy the NYT and read the article and then we can talk about “ensure” (not the drink)>
So you read the part about vetting?
I’m talking about this article Timmy…nothing about vetting* in there…which article you talking about.
*I assume you’re refering to the fact that the US will be consulted on the caretaker government. If that’s what you’re gonna base your argument on, I’ll start looking for the most expensive bar I can find now.