Weekend Open Thread

by

by wj

We are overdue for a new open thread. Unfortunately, inspiration is failing me this morning, so I’m going to fall back on something which is probably irrelevant to almost everyone else here: the California Department of Motor Vehicles.

For those of you who are not aware, the DMV can be described (if ones is very, very generous) as a mess. If one is merely very generous, “disaster” would be the term of choice. Listing the faults of the current DMV could take months. But a recent audit gives a taste. https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2019/03/29/editorial-dmv-audit-provides-shocking-examples-of-dysfunction/

One item, in particular, struck me. The DMV’s software was characterized as “using a 50 year old programming language.” My first thought was that they were probably talking about CoBOL; and why was that a major problem? But no.

Assembler, the primary programming language used in DMV field office computer applications, was created around the 1950s and is less commonly used today. With a significant portion of the agency’s IT workers approaching retirement age, DMV faces a potential shortfall of workers with skills to program its computers.

Oh, (mainframe, no doubt) Assembler. NOW, I see why there might be a problem. In fact, my biggest surprise is that they still have any Assembler programmers who haven’t retired. I have to wonder, how long is it going to take to rewrite all those programs in a better language? For that matter, how long will it take just to document what the existing programs actually do – because I’m betting that the current “documentation”, where it exists at all, is massively inadequate.

Anyway, Open Thread

448 thoughts on “Weekend Open Thread”

  1. While I was in the military 1969-73, the branch of service I was in was making a slow transition from Assembler to COBOL for accounting software. A bit sad if you’re fifty years behind a part of the federal government.

  2. While I was in the military 1969-73, the branch of service I was in was making a slow transition from Assembler to COBOL for accounting software. A bit sad if you’re fifty years behind a part of the federal government.

  3. EF Goldman, who for a time a number of years ago was an able commenter here, passed away a couple of weeks ago. Interesting life.
    https://www.balloon-juice.com/2019/03/29/peter-rosss-aka-efgoldmans-obituary/
    As to the subject at hand, it would be refreshing for a gubanatorial candidate in any old state of any old ideology to run on a platform of upgrading and modernizing DMVs, since they are the one point of sale of government nearly all citizens “interface” with.
    I don’t get it. Why does the Governor not visit the DMV and the budget committee tasked with funding the place in person, stand on someone’s desk and mandate at least the upgrading of the IT infrastructure.
    Or are Americans just generally incompetent in the field of self-governance?

  4. EF Goldman, who for a time a number of years ago was an able commenter here, passed away a couple of weeks ago. Interesting life.
    https://www.balloon-juice.com/2019/03/29/peter-rosss-aka-efgoldmans-obituary/
    As to the subject at hand, it would be refreshing for a gubanatorial candidate in any old state of any old ideology to run on a platform of upgrading and modernizing DMVs, since they are the one point of sale of government nearly all citizens “interface” with.
    I don’t get it. Why does the Governor not visit the DMV and the budget committee tasked with funding the place in person, stand on someone’s desk and mandate at least the upgrading of the IT infrastructure.
    Or are Americans just generally incompetent in the field of self-governance?

  5. California wouldn’t have to start from scratch revitalizing its DMV. There’s a number of companies that provide systems for DMV and related services. Also, it could contract a portion of the workload to private DMV service providers.
    “With Californians reportedly waiting up to six or even eight hours at the Department of Motor Vehicles, taxpayers’ growing frustration is justifiable. “A marathon or two could be run while you wait in line at the DMV,” the Orange County Register recently noted.
    …
    But California’s problems have far surpassed the typical “going to the DMV is miserable” stereotypes. While the state has attempted to improve DMV performance by providing numerous funding increases, including an additional $47 million for 550 new jobs just last year and $16 million in emergency funding more recently, the wait times and hassles are still ridiculous.”
    California’s DMV Problems Require Change, Major Overhaul, not More Money: The DMV is a long-running punchline. It’s time to change.

  6. California wouldn’t have to start from scratch revitalizing its DMV. There’s a number of companies that provide systems for DMV and related services. Also, it could contract a portion of the workload to private DMV service providers.
    “With Californians reportedly waiting up to six or even eight hours at the Department of Motor Vehicles, taxpayers’ growing frustration is justifiable. “A marathon or two could be run while you wait in line at the DMV,” the Orange County Register recently noted.
    …
    But California’s problems have far surpassed the typical “going to the DMV is miserable” stereotypes. While the state has attempted to improve DMV performance by providing numerous funding increases, including an additional $47 million for 550 new jobs just last year and $16 million in emergency funding more recently, the wait times and hassles are still ridiculous.”
    California’s DMV Problems Require Change, Major Overhaul, not More Money: The DMV is a long-running punchline. It’s time to change.

  7. But “Assembler” isn’t a programming language. It’s a class of programming languages. And one any real programmer should feel at home in.
    Of course it’s possible that my great-grandfather the carriage builder said vaguely analogous things about carmakers.

  8. But “Assembler” isn’t a programming language. It’s a class of programming languages. And one any real programmer should feel at home in.
    Of course it’s possible that my great-grandfather the carriage builder said vaguely analogous things about carmakers.

  9. IBM had Assembler languages for computers that didn’t exist but were emulated on ones that did.

  10. IBM had Assembler languages for computers that didn’t exist but were emulated on ones that did.

  11. I heard that CDC assembler was particularly difficult. And that’s not even programming the peripheral processing units in their own 18-bit assembler.

  12. I heard that CDC assembler was particularly difficult. And that’s not even programming the peripheral processing units in their own 18-bit assembler.

  13. Assembler, the primary programming language used in DMV field office computer applications, was created around the 1950s and is less commonly used today.
    “Less commonly used” is one way to put it. 😉
    And what Pro Bono said.
    I’ve spent the past eight years involved (in a variety of roles) in a project unaffectionately referred to in my company as “getting out of DOS.” Our core programs were written 30+ years ago in Quicksilver/dBXL. We turned the last one off a few months ago.
    The powers that be might never have been convinced to dedicate the resources required to get us here without the pressure of clients (we are small, some of them are very very large) insisting on modern security features that could not be provided on machines that were still running DOS. (At least that’s my broad brush understanding. I am not a security person. I am, as my father would say if he were alive and understood all this, a Jack of all some trades and a master of none. Technically speaking.)
    It’s a daunting problem: what does the DMV replace the current system with, even assuming they could get the $ and personnel resources? There’s probably almost nothing documented, and half the people who carried the institutional knowledge in their heads, never mind Assembler skills, have probably retired or will do so soon. Creating a modern system would be job security for a lot of people, if only there were money to pay them with.
    I’m retiring from full-time work sometime this summer, but I hope to keep a little money coming in by churning out SQL stored procedures for my company. I am institutional memory (and database familiarity) personified. 😉

  14. Assembler, the primary programming language used in DMV field office computer applications, was created around the 1950s and is less commonly used today.
    “Less commonly used” is one way to put it. 😉
    And what Pro Bono said.
    I’ve spent the past eight years involved (in a variety of roles) in a project unaffectionately referred to in my company as “getting out of DOS.” Our core programs were written 30+ years ago in Quicksilver/dBXL. We turned the last one off a few months ago.
    The powers that be might never have been convinced to dedicate the resources required to get us here without the pressure of clients (we are small, some of them are very very large) insisting on modern security features that could not be provided on machines that were still running DOS. (At least that’s my broad brush understanding. I am not a security person. I am, as my father would say if he were alive and understood all this, a Jack of all some trades and a master of none. Technically speaking.)
    It’s a daunting problem: what does the DMV replace the current system with, even assuming they could get the $ and personnel resources? There’s probably almost nothing documented, and half the people who carried the institutional knowledge in their heads, never mind Assembler skills, have probably retired or will do so soon. Creating a modern system would be job security for a lot of people, if only there were money to pay them with.
    I’m retiring from full-time work sometime this summer, but I hope to keep a little money coming in by churning out SQL stored procedures for my company. I am institutional memory (and database familiarity) personified. 😉

  15. Assembly language is not going away. Assembly language is what your compilers produce from your so-called higher-level languages. It is, in turn, run through a program, usually called an assembler, to produce an “object file” that contains machine language and data characterizations. All that stuff might get “linked” together to form a runnable program.
    People who implement the later stages of a compiled language are assembly language programmers. Good ones are extremely concerned with efficient execution. Other programming areas where performance matters a lot, like device drivers and embedded systems are often implemented in assembly language.
    I’ve done quite a lot of this sort of work. For embedded stuff, like network equipment, the reason there isn’t a higher-level language isn’t always the desire for very efficient instruction selection. Sometimes you’re not going to need enough code to justify the cost of writing a compiler. Implementing an assembler is easy, but a compiler is a proverbial “land war in Asia”.
    This doesn’t excuse the CA DMV. they’ve had decades of trouble with their computer procurements. It’s likely that they haven’t engaged with competent technical people. You don’t get what you don’t pay for.

  16. Assembly language is not going away. Assembly language is what your compilers produce from your so-called higher-level languages. It is, in turn, run through a program, usually called an assembler, to produce an “object file” that contains machine language and data characterizations. All that stuff might get “linked” together to form a runnable program.
    People who implement the later stages of a compiled language are assembly language programmers. Good ones are extremely concerned with efficient execution. Other programming areas where performance matters a lot, like device drivers and embedded systems are often implemented in assembly language.
    I’ve done quite a lot of this sort of work. For embedded stuff, like network equipment, the reason there isn’t a higher-level language isn’t always the desire for very efficient instruction selection. Sometimes you’re not going to need enough code to justify the cost of writing a compiler. Implementing an assembler is easy, but a compiler is a proverbial “land war in Asia”.
    This doesn’t excuse the CA DMV. they’ve had decades of trouble with their computer procurements. It’s likely that they haven’t engaged with competent technical people. You don’t get what you don’t pay for.

  17. it would be refreshing for a gubanatorial candidate in any old state of any old ideology to run on a platform of upgrading and modernizing DMVs, since they are the one point of sale of government nearly all citizens “interface” with.
    I don’t get it. Why does the Governor not visit the DMV and the budget committee tasked with funding the place in person, stand on someone’s desk and mandate at least the upgrading of the IT infrastructure.
    Consider how routinely politicians “balance” budgets by deferring maintenance on, for example, roads. Which even the non-driving portion of the population interfaces with. When I think about how bad some of them have gotten, I shudder to think how horrible they must have been for a Michigan gubernatorial candidate to run (and win!) on a slogan of “Fix the damn roads!” And roads, as infrastructure, are a lot easier for the average voter to understand than computers.

  18. it would be refreshing for a gubanatorial candidate in any old state of any old ideology to run on a platform of upgrading and modernizing DMVs, since they are the one point of sale of government nearly all citizens “interface” with.
    I don’t get it. Why does the Governor not visit the DMV and the budget committee tasked with funding the place in person, stand on someone’s desk and mandate at least the upgrading of the IT infrastructure.
    Consider how routinely politicians “balance” budgets by deferring maintenance on, for example, roads. Which even the non-driving portion of the population interfaces with. When I think about how bad some of them have gotten, I shudder to think how horrible they must have been for a Michigan gubernatorial candidate to run (and win!) on a slogan of “Fix the damn roads!” And roads, as infrastructure, are a lot easier for the average voter to understand than computers.

  21. I had to go to the CA DMV in December to do my latest renewal and to get my Real ID for travel. The DMV sent my notice on a Wednesday four months ahead of when my license expired. On Thursday I went to the DMV website to set up an appointment so that I could skip the epic line. There were no appointments available before my license expired at the firs two closest DMV offices. At the third closest I managed to get an appointment for the day before it expired.
    In between times I moved and had to change my address with the DMV. Despite having done this, they did not update my Real ID application at the same time, so when I got to my window for the appointment, I had to go back to the computer room to fill out my application a second time before I could submit my documentation to the clerk.
    I was still in and out in less than two hours, so it was relatively painless as far as CA DMV experiences go. And the DMV clerk warmed fairly quickly after I did not throw any shade or attitude her way.

  22. I had to go to the CA DMV in December to do my latest renewal and to get my Real ID for travel. The DMV sent my notice on a Wednesday four months ahead of when my license expired. On Thursday I went to the DMV website to set up an appointment so that I could skip the epic line. There were no appointments available before my license expired at the firs two closest DMV offices. At the third closest I managed to get an appointment for the day before it expired.
    In between times I moved and had to change my address with the DMV. Despite having done this, they did not update my Real ID application at the same time, so when I got to my window for the appointment, I had to go back to the computer room to fill out my application a second time before I could submit my documentation to the clerk.
    I was still in and out in less than two hours, so it was relatively painless as far as CA DMV experiences go. And the DMV clerk warmed fairly quickly after I did not throw any shade or attitude her way.

  23. But updating the system would obviously be a Democrat(ic) power grab since the one and only purpose would be to ease undesirable people getting ID suitable for voting. 😉

  24. But updating the system would obviously be a Democrat(ic) power grab since the one and only purpose would be to ease undesirable people getting ID suitable for voting. 😉

  27. Nobody knows what it does, but at least it’s fast!
    It still goes “zip” when it moves
    And “bop” when it stops…

  28. Nobody knows what it does, but at least it’s fast!
    It still goes “zip” when it moves
    And “bop” when it stops…

  29. Thank you, John Thullen for the info about efgoldman. He seemed to migrate over to Cole’s site a while back but he will be missed by the old timer’s here as well.
    Rest in peace, Mr Ross (AKA efgoldman)

  30. Thank you, John Thullen for the info about efgoldman. He seemed to migrate over to Cole’s site a while back but he will be missed by the old timer’s here as well.
    Rest in peace, Mr Ross (AKA efgoldman)

  33. So happy to see another (albeit a laidback) member of the punctuation and grammar police! Also, just spent a few days with an old friend who knows somebody who taught the orange peril at Wharton. No wonder his lawyers threaten anybody who might release his grades: apparently he was a lazy and lousy student who often almost flunked (my friend can’t remember all the gory details). Hardly a surprise to hear, but still satisfying in a weird (how is it possible this man is really president) way….

  34. So happy to see another (albeit a laidback) member of the punctuation and grammar police! Also, just spent a few days with an old friend who knows somebody who taught the orange peril at Wharton. No wonder his lawyers threaten anybody who might release his grades: apparently he was a lazy and lousy student who often almost flunked (my friend can’t remember all the gory details). Hardly a surprise to hear, but still satisfying in a weird (how is it possible this man is really president) way….

  35. we’d know for sure how he did at Wharton, if Trump would release his grades.
    we’d know for sure how good of a businessman he is, if Trump would release his taxes.
    and we’d know for sure how much of a patriot he is, if Trump would release the entire Mueller report.
    MAGA, flush this turd.

  36. we’d know for sure how he did at Wharton, if Trump would release his grades.
    we’d know for sure how good of a businessman he is, if Trump would release his taxes.
    and we’d know for sure how much of a patriot he is, if Trump would release the entire Mueller report.
    MAGA, flush this turd.

  37. MAGA, flush this turd.
    Is flushing really the best way to dispose of toxic waste?
    I’m thinking landfill myself. Preferably one with serious controls to keep toxins from escaping.

  38. MAGA, flush this turd.
    Is flushing really the best way to dispose of toxic waste?
    I’m thinking landfill myself. Preferably one with serious controls to keep toxins from escaping.

  39. When I was on my state’s legislative staff, one of my ongoing assignments was explaining software to the members of the General Assembly. It was a painful job.
    At the time, I asserted that if you turned me lose in any of the 50 state governments, no matter how small, and gave me three weeks, I could find at least $100M worth of software work that needed doing. Billions in a big state.

  40. When I was on my state’s legislative staff, one of my ongoing assignments was explaining software to the members of the General Assembly. It was a painful job.
    At the time, I asserted that if you turned me lose in any of the 50 state governments, no matter how small, and gave me three weeks, I could find at least $100M worth of software work that needed doing. Billions in a big state.

  41. One of my mantras at work is, “Work takes time.” The people who have big ideas and set big goals (including profit projections) don’t seem to grasp that.
    One of my side gigs used to be editing. The higher-ups in my company wanted to start publishing a series of guides related to our business. A few of them sat in a room one day and decided that our goal should be to have 100 of these brochures (4-5 pages each) available for purchase online — in six weeks. The drafts would be written by some of our newest, youngest employees and edited by me before they went to the marking department to be made pretty.
    No one asked me (or marketing, I dare say) for any input into this decision. What’s more, we didn’t have any mechanism in place for selling stuff online, but no one bothered to ask IT either.
    Our writers were good at their designated jobs, but they weren’t writers. It took me about three hours to whip one of these pieces into shape, so 100 of them would have taken 300 hours. I was expected to be doing programming-like tasks for 90+% of my time, so we were talking . . . somewhere between a year and two years for the editing, depending on what they told me my other priorities were.
    I finally convinced them to hire an outside editor; I did the vetting. I told the one boss I was extra good friends with that this episode had been like someone with a pile of old car parts out in the back forty deciding to put a sign out front saying “Car repair.” No mechanics, no tools, no lifts……..
    In relation to software projects, the higher-ups were (are) always frustrated with how long things take. I used to wish I could figure out a good metaphor to explain why the things they wanted couldn’t be done quickly. As in: suppose you have a nice little house, two stories, 6 or 8 rooms. Suppose you decide you want all the rooms to be one foot bigger in each dimension.
    Sounds simple, surely!!!!! I can say what I want in twenty-five words or less!!!

  42. One of my mantras at work is, “Work takes time.” The people who have big ideas and set big goals (including profit projections) don’t seem to grasp that.
    One of my side gigs used to be editing. The higher-ups in my company wanted to start publishing a series of guides related to our business. A few of them sat in a room one day and decided that our goal should be to have 100 of these brochures (4-5 pages each) available for purchase online — in six weeks. The drafts would be written by some of our newest, youngest employees and edited by me before they went to the marking department to be made pretty.
    No one asked me (or marketing, I dare say) for any input into this decision. What’s more, we didn’t have any mechanism in place for selling stuff online, but no one bothered to ask IT either.
    Our writers were good at their designated jobs, but they weren’t writers. It took me about three hours to whip one of these pieces into shape, so 100 of them would have taken 300 hours. I was expected to be doing programming-like tasks for 90+% of my time, so we were talking . . . somewhere between a year and two years for the editing, depending on what they told me my other priorities were.
    I finally convinced them to hire an outside editor; I did the vetting. I told the one boss I was extra good friends with that this episode had been like someone with a pile of old car parts out in the back forty deciding to put a sign out front saying “Car repair.” No mechanics, no tools, no lifts……..
    In relation to software projects, the higher-ups were (are) always frustrated with how long things take. I used to wish I could figure out a good metaphor to explain why the things they wanted couldn’t be done quickly. As in: suppose you have a nice little house, two stories, 6 or 8 rooms. Suppose you decide you want all the rooms to be one foot bigger in each dimension.
    Sounds simple, surely!!!!! I can say what I want in twenty-five words or less!!!

  43. Sounds simple, surely!!!!! I can say what I want in twenty-five words or less!!!
    Of course, he’d say it in management-speak, so nobody would be able to understand it….

  44. Sounds simple, surely!!!!! I can say what I want in twenty-five words or less!!!
    Of course, he’d say it in management-speak, so nobody would be able to understand it….

  45. JanieM: I heard stuff like this explained as “Cheops Law: it always takes longer and costs more”
    Always.

  46. JanieM: I heard stuff like this explained as “Cheops Law: it always takes longer and costs more”
    Always.

  49. I can say what I want in twenty-five words or less!!!
    The most dreaded phrase in state government software RFPs is “Must be compliant with all relevant federal regulations.” For some of the larger systems, it is a sure bet that there isn’t a single individual in the state government who can give you a complete list of those requirements. There may not be a group of people who can do it.
    There are perhaps a half-dozen companies who have invested the enormous effort into tracking down those regulations and figuring out how to build compliant systems (the biggest ones are EDS and IBM). Those companies win almost all of the contracts because (a) they do know (at least most of) the requirements and (b) they’re big enough to absorb the penalties if they miss some. IIRC, some years back Deloitte decided it would be a lucrative new line of business and spent $100M of their own money on putting together a complete list and the basic infrastructure software to comply with the list before giving it up as a bad idea.

  50. I can say what I want in twenty-five words or less!!!
    The most dreaded phrase in state government software RFPs is “Must be compliant with all relevant federal regulations.” For some of the larger systems, it is a sure bet that there isn’t a single individual in the state government who can give you a complete list of those requirements. There may not be a group of people who can do it.
    There are perhaps a half-dozen companies who have invested the enormous effort into tracking down those regulations and figuring out how to build compliant systems (the biggest ones are EDS and IBM). Those companies win almost all of the contracts because (a) they do know (at least most of) the requirements and (b) they’re big enough to absorb the penalties if they miss some. IIRC, some years back Deloitte decided it would be a lucrative new line of business and spent $100M of their own money on putting together a complete list and the basic infrastructure software to comply with the list before giving it up as a bad idea.

  51. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/trump-plans-us-aid-cut-to-3-central-american-countries-as-fight-widens-over-us-bound-migrants/2019/03/30/d6814b42-52ff-11e9-bdb7-44f948cc0605_story.html
    You gotta admit, it’s a brilliant plan: Make things worse in Central America. Thereby guaranteeing steady (maybe even increasing!) flows of migrants to our southern border. Which, in turn, keeps his supporters worked up.
    Brilliant!
    Of course, like his tariffs, it makes the situation he is supposedly addressing worse. But that’s the Trump Way.

  52. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/trump-plans-us-aid-cut-to-3-central-american-countries-as-fight-widens-over-us-bound-migrants/2019/03/30/d6814b42-52ff-11e9-bdb7-44f948cc0605_story.html
    You gotta admit, it’s a brilliant plan: Make things worse in Central America. Thereby guaranteeing steady (maybe even increasing!) flows of migrants to our southern border. Which, in turn, keeps his supporters worked up.
    Brilliant!
    Of course, like his tariffs, it makes the situation he is supposedly addressing worse. But that’s the Trump Way.

  53. I’ve written diagnostic boot code in assembler for MIPS, x86, PowerPC, and various chunks of assembler for PDP/11, IBM/370, Motorola 68xxx, and the Rockwell 6502, the Z80, and perhaps two other architectures.
    It’s like building a full-size house out of Legos : the building blocks are very small compared to the size of the design object. Discipline and methodical decomposition are required, or the program quickly becomes impossible to really understand, and too brittle to modify successfully.

  54. I’ve written diagnostic boot code in assembler for MIPS, x86, PowerPC, and various chunks of assembler for PDP/11, IBM/370, Motorola 68xxx, and the Rockwell 6502, the Z80, and perhaps two other architectures.
    It’s like building a full-size house out of Legos : the building blocks are very small compared to the size of the design object. Discipline and methodical decomposition are required, or the program quickly becomes impossible to really understand, and too brittle to modify successfully.

  55. CA DMV still suffers from having had Republicans holding the state government purse strings for 20 years. An agency cannot rework their computer systems on determination alone: it takes time and money, and the Republicans were determined not to provide money to any part of the government except prisons, law enforcement, and some road construction.

  56. CA DMV still suffers from having had Republicans holding the state government purse strings for 20 years. An agency cannot rework their computer systems on determination alone: it takes time and money, and the Republicans were determined not to provide money to any part of the government except prisons, law enforcement, and some road construction.

  57. You gotta admit, it’s a brilliant plan: Make things worse in Central America.
    Yeah, but those are Mexican countries. It says so, right in the chyron.
    When you see a fire, pour gasoline on it. It’s the Trump way. Fox brings the gasoline.

  58. You gotta admit, it’s a brilliant plan: Make things worse in Central America.
    Yeah, but those are Mexican countries. It says so, right in the chyron.
    When you see a fire, pour gasoline on it. It’s the Trump way. Fox brings the gasoline.

  59. The fun thing here is that if the DMV is working efficiently, you don’t need to interact with it. In Finland, cars are registered when they are bought (new or used) at the dealership. You register the car personally only if you by it from a private person, and in that case, you use the DMV web site. If you take the car out of traffic, you’ll do that via your insurance company which informs the national traffic safety administration.
    The driver’s license and the regular vehicle inspection are the times when you visit something in person but those are handled actually by private contractors. The driver’s license is common throughout EU, so you don’t need to renew it when moving. Similarly, when you move, you car registration is updated automatically after you inform the national population database (which is a legal obligation).
    So, in fact, the “DMV” function carried out by the public administration in Finland is the maintenance of some extremely efficient, interlocked databases that allow them to outsource the public interaction to private entities.

  60. The fun thing here is that if the DMV is working efficiently, you don’t need to interact with it. In Finland, cars are registered when they are bought (new or used) at the dealership. You register the car personally only if you by it from a private person, and in that case, you use the DMV web site. If you take the car out of traffic, you’ll do that via your insurance company which informs the national traffic safety administration.
    The driver’s license and the regular vehicle inspection are the times when you visit something in person but those are handled actually by private contractors. The driver’s license is common throughout EU, so you don’t need to renew it when moving. Similarly, when you move, you car registration is updated automatically after you inform the national population database (which is a legal obligation).
    So, in fact, the “DMV” function carried out by the public administration in Finland is the maintenance of some extremely efficient, interlocked databases that allow them to outsource the public interaction to private entities.

  61. Yes, a lot of registration is handled by private contractors in Pennsylvania. The result is the worst system I have ever experienced.
    I had to get my car inspected before I could get it registered. But I had to get it registered before I could get it inspected. Catch 22.

  62. Yes, a lot of registration is handled by private contractors in Pennsylvania. The result is the worst system I have ever experienced.
    I had to get my car inspected before I could get it registered. But I had to get it registered before I could get it inspected. Catch 22.

  63. Heard, years ago, that in IN that license offices are filled by political patronage from the Gov. office, and automatically kicks back a percentage of (some? all?) license fees to the state Party.
    For that special mix of “corruption” and “incompetence”, y’know.

  64. Heard, years ago, that in IN that license offices are filled by political patronage from the Gov. office, and automatically kicks back a percentage of (some? all?) license fees to the state Party.
    For that special mix of “corruption” and “incompetence”, y’know.

  65. At one time Indiana removed the clocks from its BMV branches so that people wouldn’t be as conscious of how long they were having to wait. But Mitch Daniels fixed the BMV. 🙂
    “Daniels revolutionized the state’s approach to its BMV, and just a few years later, an agency that had been almost universally despised enjoyed a customer satisfaction rating of 95.9 percent. Three times during the Daniels era, the BMV won the International Customer Service Award from the American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators (AAMVA). What had once been among the worst motor vehicle bureaus in the nation was in a few short years consistently considered the best.”
    Case Study in Culture Change: How Reforming the Bureau of Motor Vehicles Can Change a State

  66. At one time Indiana removed the clocks from its BMV branches so that people wouldn’t be as conscious of how long they were having to wait. But Mitch Daniels fixed the BMV. 🙂
    “Daniels revolutionized the state’s approach to its BMV, and just a few years later, an agency that had been almost universally despised enjoyed a customer satisfaction rating of 95.9 percent. Three times during the Daniels era, the BMV won the International Customer Service Award from the American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators (AAMVA). What had once been among the worst motor vehicle bureaus in the nation was in a few short years consistently considered the best.”
    Case Study in Culture Change: How Reforming the Bureau of Motor Vehicles Can Change a State

  67. The fun thing here is that if the DMV is working efficiently, you don’t need to interact with it.
    And that just may be the secret of preventing people from feeling like government is “intruding on their lives”.
    Cradle to grave nanny state would probably be perfectly fine to most Americans, if they never had to stand in a line.

  68. The fun thing here is that if the DMV is working efficiently, you don’t need to interact with it.
    And that just may be the secret of preventing people from feeling like government is “intruding on their lives”.
    Cradle to grave nanny state would probably be perfectly fine to most Americans, if they never had to stand in a line.

  73. From CharlesWT’s link:

    There is a view among elected officials that government bureaucracies are too big and rigid, and therefore impossible to change at the level of culture. The BMV experience in Indiana shows just how misguided this view is. But it’s not just a matter of introducing new technologies and innovative processes. It also requires political leadership that consistently prioritizes the public good over the politically expedient.

    You’d think “political leadership that consistently prioritizes the public good” would find doing so “politically expedient” in a democracy, wouldn’t you? So why is “fixing the DMV” considered a brave thing to do?
    Is it because there’s political risk in trying to change the “culture” in “the bureaucracy”? The tale of the Indiana DMV makes me think that notion is sometimes bullshit. I haven’t been to Indiana in 30 years, but the way I remember it Hoosiers are practically Canadians in their politeness, compassion, and general humanity. And I bet most Indiana DMV employees are, in fact, Hoosiers. So I doubt it was against their “culture” to treat their fellow Hoosiers as valued customers before heroic Mitch Daniels came along. I think it more likely that their who-cares-about-the-customer “culture” came from the top — from venal or stupid political overseers appointed by venal or stupid politicians. It certainly seems the Indiana DMV “bureaucrats” needed little prodding to “change their culture”.
    Now, how about “teachers” and “cops”? The Republican (and, to be fair, the conventional punditocracy) view is that “teachers’ unions” are unconcerned about serving the “public good” by actually educating kids, and that “cops” as a whole are only concerned with serving “the public good” when backing Republicans. I cannot help but wonder “the public good” is by definition what Republicans tell the pundits it is.
    –TP

  74. From CharlesWT’s link:

    There is a view among elected officials that government bureaucracies are too big and rigid, and therefore impossible to change at the level of culture. The BMV experience in Indiana shows just how misguided this view is. But it’s not just a matter of introducing new technologies and innovative processes. It also requires political leadership that consistently prioritizes the public good over the politically expedient.

    You’d think “political leadership that consistently prioritizes the public good” would find doing so “politically expedient” in a democracy, wouldn’t you? So why is “fixing the DMV” considered a brave thing to do?
    Is it because there’s political risk in trying to change the “culture” in “the bureaucracy”? The tale of the Indiana DMV makes me think that notion is sometimes bullshit. I haven’t been to Indiana in 30 years, but the way I remember it Hoosiers are practically Canadians in their politeness, compassion, and general humanity. And I bet most Indiana DMV employees are, in fact, Hoosiers. So I doubt it was against their “culture” to treat their fellow Hoosiers as valued customers before heroic Mitch Daniels came along. I think it more likely that their who-cares-about-the-customer “culture” came from the top — from venal or stupid political overseers appointed by venal or stupid politicians. It certainly seems the Indiana DMV “bureaucrats” needed little prodding to “change their culture”.
    Now, how about “teachers” and “cops”? The Republican (and, to be fair, the conventional punditocracy) view is that “teachers’ unions” are unconcerned about serving the “public good” by actually educating kids, and that “cops” as a whole are only concerned with serving “the public good” when backing Republicans. I cannot help but wonder “the public good” is by definition what Republicans tell the pundits it is.
    –TP

  75. Indiana is a funny place. Northern stronghold of the Klan, and also gave us Birch Bayh. And, Mike Pence. And, Pete Butigieg.
    Hard to pin down exactly what the culture of IN is.
    Most places are like that.

  76. Indiana is a funny place. Northern stronghold of the Klan, and also gave us Birch Bayh. And, Mike Pence. And, Pete Butigieg.
    Hard to pin down exactly what the culture of IN is.
    Most places are like that.

  81. Nigel, I think the critical line there is:

    Just as gerrymanderers use computers and extensive collections of voter data to draw tens of thousands of maps to find the one that suits their party best, mathematicians can draw tens of thousands of maps without thumbing the scale to see what neutrally drawn district maps . . . tend to look like.

    The unfortunate reality is that the justices are, thanks to age and education, ignorant of math (or statistics) and of computers. They don’t care that gerrymandering is being done using those tools. They want something simple, preferably not using anything beyond grade school arithmetic, for a solution. The world, in this area, has past them by. But they seem determined to act like it’s still 1950.

  82. Nigel, I think the critical line there is:

    Just as gerrymanderers use computers and extensive collections of voter data to draw tens of thousands of maps to find the one that suits their party best, mathematicians can draw tens of thousands of maps without thumbing the scale to see what neutrally drawn district maps . . . tend to look like.

    The unfortunate reality is that the justices are, thanks to age and education, ignorant of math (or statistics) and of computers. They don’t care that gerrymandering is being done using those tools. They want something simple, preferably not using anything beyond grade school arithmetic, for a solution. The world, in this area, has past them by. But they seem determined to act like it’s still 1950.

  83. But they seem determined to act like it’s still 1950.
    I guess they would be at a complete loss if someone presented them with the fractal dimensions of various congressional districts.

  84. But they seem determined to act like it’s still 1950.
    I guess they would be at a complete loss if someone presented them with the fractal dimensions of various congressional districts.

  85. I’m sceptical that any of the Justices are too ignorant to follow the argument. Rather, highly partisan Republican Justices choose not to pursue any argument which might hamper Republican Party subversion of democracy.

  86. I’m sceptical that any of the Justices are too ignorant to follow the argument. Rather, highly partisan Republican Justices choose not to pursue any argument which might hamper Republican Party subversion of democracy.

  87. In this 21st century world (in spite of all attempts to push it back a few centuries), I strongly suggest that USSC confirmation require passing a math test.
    Something like 650+ on the math SAT would be okay, also, too.
    But for a gerrymandering case the standard should be higher, and they should be recused if they didn’t pass a class on Calculus of Variations.

  88. In this 21st century world (in spite of all attempts to push it back a few centuries), I strongly suggest that USSC confirmation require passing a math test.
    Something like 650+ on the math SAT would be okay, also, too.
    But for a gerrymandering case the standard should be higher, and they should be recused if they didn’t pass a class on Calculus of Variations.

  89. Math skills, huh? What about suggesting that shutting down the border between the US and Mexico will reap huge “profits” because we import more from Mexico than we export to Mexico. The level of ignorance is painful.

  90. Math skills, huh? What about suggesting that shutting down the border between the US and Mexico will reap huge “profits” because we import more from Mexico than we export to Mexico. The level of ignorance is painful.

  95. I’m sceptical that any of the Justices are too ignorant to follow the argument.
    I also suspect that the Justices can follow the argument. Where things fall apart is that they want certainty in the guidance they issue to the lower courts — the oft-mentioned bright red line. It won’t be enough to say “Here’s a mathematical test that can be applied to a district map and correctly identifies partisan gerrymandering 95% of the time.”
    A case I follow because I’m peculiar is the Texas v. New Mexico and Colorado water case currently before the Court. Texas has asked the Court to rule that pumping water from an aquifer that is hydrologically linked to a surface river count as a diversion from the river. The engineers’ answer to the simple question is “Of course it’s a diversion.” The hard part is answering how big a diversion it is. I doubt that the Court is going to rule that way. If they do, though, it’s going to upset 150 years worth of Western water law.

  96. I’m sceptical that any of the Justices are too ignorant to follow the argument.
    I also suspect that the Justices can follow the argument. Where things fall apart is that they want certainty in the guidance they issue to the lower courts — the oft-mentioned bright red line. It won’t be enough to say “Here’s a mathematical test that can be applied to a district map and correctly identifies partisan gerrymandering 95% of the time.”
    A case I follow because I’m peculiar is the Texas v. New Mexico and Colorado water case currently before the Court. Texas has asked the Court to rule that pumping water from an aquifer that is hydrologically linked to a surface river count as a diversion from the river. The engineers’ answer to the simple question is “Of course it’s a diversion.” The hard part is answering how big a diversion it is. I doubt that the Court is going to rule that way. If they do, though, it’s going to upset 150 years worth of Western water law.

  97. “A case I follow because I’m peculiar is the Texas v. New Mexico and Colorado water case currently before the Court. … it’s going to upset 150 years worth of Western water law.”
    Yeah, but that’s SPANISH based water law, and some people get their knickers in a twist from giving any validity to them-thar furrin lawrs.

  98. “A case I follow because I’m peculiar is the Texas v. New Mexico and Colorado water case currently before the Court. … it’s going to upset 150 years worth of Western water law.”
    Yeah, but that’s SPANISH based water law, and some people get their knickers in a twist from giving any validity to them-thar furrin lawrs.

  99. some people get their knickers in a twist from giving any validity to them-thar furrin lawrs.
    Of course, they also get their knickers in a twist when they hear furrin (e.g. Spanish) words spoken. Which means they best not travel much in the Southwest. For example, an entirely unexceptional bit of driving directions in my local area: “From Palo Alto, take El Camino to San Mateo.” 9 words . . . 2/3 of the Spanish.
    The thing is, between the names of cities and towns, the name geographic features (rivers and mountains) and the names of streets, you just about cannot escape Spanish if you live here. No matter how xenophobic you prefer to be. C’est la vie.

  100. some people get their knickers in a twist from giving any validity to them-thar furrin lawrs.
    Of course, they also get their knickers in a twist when they hear furrin (e.g. Spanish) words spoken. Which means they best not travel much in the Southwest. For example, an entirely unexceptional bit of driving directions in my local area: “From Palo Alto, take El Camino to San Mateo.” 9 words . . . 2/3 of the Spanish.
    The thing is, between the names of cities and towns, the name geographic features (rivers and mountains) and the names of streets, you just about cannot escape Spanish if you live here. No matter how xenophobic you prefer to be. C’est la vie.

  101. A beloved (and although you will find it hard to believe) highly educated old friend (admittedly an R, and pretty suspect on race matters too), was once complaining to me about the increasing prominence of Spanish and Latinos in California and specifically LA, where she was born and raised. You could see her double-take and the couple of seconds it took her to understand me when I said “Ah well, it’s getting back to its historic and eponymous roots then!” It had obviously never occurred to her…

  102. A beloved (and although you will find it hard to believe) highly educated old friend (admittedly an R, and pretty suspect on race matters too), was once complaining to me about the increasing prominence of Spanish and Latinos in California and specifically LA, where she was born and raised. You could see her double-take and the couple of seconds it took her to understand me when I said “Ah well, it’s getting back to its historic and eponymous roots then!” It had obviously never occurred to her…

  105. Actually, I realise it’s not the exactly correct word, but it seemed to do the job!

  106. Actually, I realise it’s not the exactly correct word, but it seemed to do the job!

  109. GftNC: Actually, I realise it’s not the exactly correct word …
    The “correct word” often matters a lot. If the ACA were to be renamed “Trumpcare”, Dear Leader would be championing it so vociferously that even Marty would be all for it. Mitch (“Yertl the turtle”) McConnell would still be agin it, of course, but he’d bow down and do his master’s bidding like always.
    Republicans long ago mastered the use of the “correct word” in the politics of a nation composed in large part of gullible people. Frank Luntz taught them to say “death tax” instead of “estate tax”, “moms and dads” instead of “parents”, “employers” instead of “corporations”, and of course “babies” instead of “fetuses”. And he taught the Broderist media to clutch its pearls any time a Democrat uses words like “disgusting” or “dirty” or “treasonous” to describe the kind of people (OK, Republicans) who use those words to describe Democrats.
    There exist allegedly-serious people in America who believe (or at least, assert) that He, Trump profited from a surfeit of “political correctness” on The Left. Those people are fools: “political correctness” of the Luntzian sort has been The Right’s main weapon for over a quarter century. “Words”, not policies, are what gets the rubes to the ballot box, and it’s The Right’s mastery of “the correct word” that has given us two Republican “commanders in chief” this millennium.
    –TP

  110. GftNC: Actually, I realise it’s not the exactly correct word …
    The “correct word” often matters a lot. If the ACA were to be renamed “Trumpcare”, Dear Leader would be championing it so vociferously that even Marty would be all for it. Mitch (“Yertl the turtle”) McConnell would still be agin it, of course, but he’d bow down and do his master’s bidding like always.
    Republicans long ago mastered the use of the “correct word” in the politics of a nation composed in large part of gullible people. Frank Luntz taught them to say “death tax” instead of “estate tax”, “moms and dads” instead of “parents”, “employers” instead of “corporations”, and of course “babies” instead of “fetuses”. And he taught the Broderist media to clutch its pearls any time a Democrat uses words like “disgusting” or “dirty” or “treasonous” to describe the kind of people (OK, Republicans) who use those words to describe Democrats.
    There exist allegedly-serious people in America who believe (or at least, assert) that He, Trump profited from a surfeit of “political correctness” on The Left. Those people are fools: “political correctness” of the Luntzian sort has been The Right’s main weapon for over a quarter century. “Words”, not policies, are what gets the rubes to the ballot box, and it’s The Right’s mastery of “the correct word” that has given us two Republican “commanders in chief” this millennium.
    –TP

  113. Perhaps, both of these catastrophes could be engineered to happen at the same time:
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/insurance/trump-does-have-a-health-care-plan-it-would-cause-millions-to-lose-coverage/ar-BBVvgHA
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/as-trump-threatens-to-close-border-experts-warn-of-billions-in-economic-damage/ar-BBVvMzi
    Throw in Brexit mayhem, and we could have a worldwide cleansing of conservative malignity in one fell violent swoop.

  114. Perhaps, both of these catastrophes could be engineered to happen at the same time:
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/insurance/trump-does-have-a-health-care-plan-it-would-cause-millions-to-lose-coverage/ar-BBVvgHA
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/as-trump-threatens-to-close-border-experts-warn-of-billions-in-economic-damage/ar-BBVvMzi
    Throw in Brexit mayhem, and we could have a worldwide cleansing of conservative malignity in one fell violent swoop.

  115. Frank Luntz taught them to say “death tax” instead of “estate tax”
    This, from the same people that say “if you wan t less of something, TAX it!”.
    Which is why I think we should have a negative tax, aka a ‘bounty’, on dead billionaires.

  116. Frank Luntz taught them to say “death tax” instead of “estate tax”
    This, from the same people that say “if you wan t less of something, TAX it!”.
    Which is why I think we should have a negative tax, aka a ‘bounty’, on dead billionaires.

  117. Throw in Brexit mayhem, and we could have a worldwide cleansing of conservative malignity in one fell violent swoop.
    Brexit isn’t so much cleansing the Conservative party, as reforming it in a Trumpite mould.
    And given our fractured politics on both right and left, they are just as likely to win the next election as to lose it.

  118. Throw in Brexit mayhem, and we could have a worldwide cleansing of conservative malignity in one fell violent swoop.
    Brexit isn’t so much cleansing the Conservative party, as reforming it in a Trumpite mould.
    And given our fractured politics on both right and left, they are just as likely to win the next election as to lose it.

  119. Now Trump declares that his super-duper healthcare plan will be unveiled the day after the election. As brilliant as Tricky Dick’s secret plan to end the war in Vitenam, I presume.

  120. Now Trump declares that his super-duper healthcare plan will be unveiled the day after the election. As brilliant as Tricky Dick’s secret plan to end the war in Vitenam, I presume.

  121. Frank Luntz taught them to say “death tax” instead of “estate tax”, “moms and dads” instead of “parents”, “employers” instead of “corporations”, and of course “babies” instead of “fetuses”.
    I was surprised to read that Luntz suggested renaming “global warming” to be “climate change.” I seem to recall conservatives here suggesting that it was weasel-wording on the part of climate scientists and their liberal supporters that led to this rewording. And I believed them! – though I didn’t think it was as big a deal as they did. (I just figured it was a matter of some particular places getting colder, even if the planet was getting warmer as a whole.)

  122. Frank Luntz taught them to say “death tax” instead of “estate tax”, “moms and dads” instead of “parents”, “employers” instead of “corporations”, and of course “babies” instead of “fetuses”.
    I was surprised to read that Luntz suggested renaming “global warming” to be “climate change.” I seem to recall conservatives here suggesting that it was weasel-wording on the part of climate scientists and their liberal supporters that led to this rewording. And I believed them! – though I didn’t think it was as big a deal as they did. (I just figured it was a matter of some particular places getting colder, even if the planet was getting warmer as a whole.)

  123. I was surprised to read that Luntz suggested renaming “global warming” to be “climate change.”
    He missed out on that one. Shoulda gone with “balmy beach weather”.

  124. I was surprised to read that Luntz suggested renaming “global warming” to be “climate change.”
    He missed out on that one. Shoulda gone with “balmy beach weather”.

  129. I wonder when puberty will lower Boy Tucker’s voice into the manly man registers, not to mention letting his testicles descend?
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/carlson-chris-hayes-what-every-man-would-be-feminists-absolute-power
    What is it that conservatives like Pol Pot and Tucker Carlson have against the bespectacled?
    And women? Other than the former’s insufficient intelligence in comparison to women.
    I believe as bad as global warming might become, mankind will survive, but
    I, a machete, and a claw hammer will assure that Carlson does not come along for the ride.

  130. I wonder when puberty will lower Boy Tucker’s voice into the manly man registers, not to mention letting his testicles descend?
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/carlson-chris-hayes-what-every-man-would-be-feminists-absolute-power
    What is it that conservatives like Pol Pot and Tucker Carlson have against the bespectacled?
    And women? Other than the former’s insufficient intelligence in comparison to women.
    I believe as bad as global warming might become, mankind will survive, but
    I, a machete, and a claw hammer will assure that Carlson does not come along for the ride.

  131. I’ve said for months that I expect the EU27 and the UK to blunder their way into a no-deal exit. Lots of rumors on the EU side this morning that make that seem more likely.
    Macron is rumored to be furious over being “summoned” to Brussels to deal with the Brits again.
    The EU’s chief negotiator said that the political declaration in the withdrawal agreement is consistent with either a permanent customs union or the Norway model, but that those are things that can’t legally be negotiated until the UK is out of the EU.
    Rumors that an increasing number of EU members simply don’t want British MEPs in the next session.

  132. I’ve said for months that I expect the EU27 and the UK to blunder their way into a no-deal exit. Lots of rumors on the EU side this morning that make that seem more likely.
    Macron is rumored to be furious over being “summoned” to Brussels to deal with the Brits again.
    The EU’s chief negotiator said that the political declaration in the withdrawal agreement is consistent with either a permanent customs union or the Norway model, but that those are things that can’t legally be negotiated until the UK is out of the EU.
    Rumors that an increasing number of EU members simply don’t want British MEPs in the next session.

  135. Well, CEOs sitting on each others boards, and giving each other raises is usual in the corporate world. Why shouldn’t Abbott run the state government like a business?

  136. Well, CEOs sitting on each others boards, and giving each other raises is usual in the corporate world. Why shouldn’t Abbott run the state government like a business?

  145. Trump is opposed to terrorism and other crimes committed by people who don’t support Trump.
    He’s equally opposed to any part of the federal government which seeks to restrain terrorism and other crimes committed by Trump supporters.
    There’s no contradiction.

  146. Trump is opposed to terrorism and other crimes committed by people who don’t support Trump.
    He’s equally opposed to any part of the federal government which seeks to restrain terrorism and other crimes committed by Trump supporters.
    There’s no contradiction.

  157. I have so many problems with that NY Mag article, bobbyp. I mean, I agree with the premise that the collective response to climate change may well be an embrace of authoritarian models — I’ve heard that from my students from China for over a decade now as they boggle at the dysfunction of the US discussion — but I think that the framing of the bigger problem here as a sort of either/or really flattens out the complexity of the situation in ways that are unhelpful.

  158. I have so many problems with that NY Mag article, bobbyp. I mean, I agree with the premise that the collective response to climate change may well be an embrace of authoritarian models — I’ve heard that from my students from China for over a decade now as they boggle at the dysfunction of the US discussion — but I think that the framing of the bigger problem here as a sort of either/or really flattens out the complexity of the situation in ways that are unhelpful.

  161. Does Buttigieg actually have a chance of winning ?
    at this point, nobody knows. it’s 10 months until the first primary vote is cast.

  162. Does Buttigieg actually have a chance of winning ?
    at this point, nobody knows. it’s 10 months until the first primary vote is cast.

  163. I was wondering about people’s opinions, not actual odds…
    (For example, Tulsi Gabbard has no chance at all; Saunders a reasonable one.)

  164. I was wondering about people’s opinions, not actual odds…
    (For example, Tulsi Gabbard has no chance at all; Saunders a reasonable one.)

  165. Here’s a bit more cynical view of Buttgieg.
    https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/03/all-about-pete?fbclid=IwAR0nFo2tErYO3Oqu_ro4D4v3Gzo2jkc_-gB26NyCjSr-2X9D4p6-0rnnThQ
    A friend who posted it on fb quoted this part
    ‘Before I dive into Shortest Way Home’s account of the life and career of Peter Buttigieg, let me be up front about my bias. I don’t trust former McKinsey consultants. I don’t trust military intelligence officers. And I don’t trust the type of people likely to appear on “40 under 40” lists, the valedictorian-to-Harvard-to-Rhodes-Scholarship types who populate the American elite. I don’t trust people who get flattering reams of newspaper profiles and are pitched as the Next Big Thing That You Must Pay Attention To, and I don’t trust wunderkinds who become successful too early. Why? Because I am somewhat cynical about the United States meritocracy. Few people amass these kind of résumés if they are the type to openly challenge authority. Noam Chomsky says that the factors predicting success in our “meritocracy” are a “combination of greed, cynicism, obsequiousness and subordination, lack of curiosity and independence of mind, [and] self-serving disregard for others.” So when journalists see “Harvard” and think “impressive,” I see it and think “uh-oh.”’
    While I don’t like to wallow in cynicism, I’m finding it hard to find issue with that paragraph…

  166. Here’s a bit more cynical view of Buttgieg.
    https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/03/all-about-pete?fbclid=IwAR0nFo2tErYO3Oqu_ro4D4v3Gzo2jkc_-gB26NyCjSr-2X9D4p6-0rnnThQ
    A friend who posted it on fb quoted this part
    ‘Before I dive into Shortest Way Home’s account of the life and career of Peter Buttigieg, let me be up front about my bias. I don’t trust former McKinsey consultants. I don’t trust military intelligence officers. And I don’t trust the type of people likely to appear on “40 under 40” lists, the valedictorian-to-Harvard-to-Rhodes-Scholarship types who populate the American elite. I don’t trust people who get flattering reams of newspaper profiles and are pitched as the Next Big Thing That You Must Pay Attention To, and I don’t trust wunderkinds who become successful too early. Why? Because I am somewhat cynical about the United States meritocracy. Few people amass these kind of résumés if they are the type to openly challenge authority. Noam Chomsky says that the factors predicting success in our “meritocracy” are a “combination of greed, cynicism, obsequiousness and subordination, lack of curiosity and independence of mind, [and] self-serving disregard for others.” So when journalists see “Harvard” and think “impressive,” I see it and think “uh-oh.”’
    While I don’t like to wallow in cynicism, I’m finding it hard to find issue with that paragraph…

  167. Thanks, lj.
    That was a very interesting alternate view.
    He’s certainly polished his technique since the book that is cited at length in your linked article (note his response to the question about reparations).

  168. Thanks, lj.
    That was a very interesting alternate view.
    He’s certainly polished his technique since the book that is cited at length in your linked article (note his response to the question about reparations).

  169. I think that it will be hard for anyone to beat Harris. The left of the party wont accept a white male. She is competent enough for the party leaders and has California from a primary perspective.
    In a field this big everyone will have bad days but she is pretty close to who they would create as an ideal candidate if they got to make one.

  170. I think that it will be hard for anyone to beat Harris. The left of the party wont accept a white male. She is competent enough for the party leaders and has California from a primary perspective.
    In a field this big everyone will have bad days but she is pretty close to who they would create as an ideal candidate if they got to make one.

  171. nobody without exactly the right pedigree, career path and history of correct public statements will be accepted by [FACTION_OF_YOUR_CHOICE].
    10 months out, zero debates held, many possible candidates still on the fence. it’s impossible to say who has any shot and who doesn’t just ask Presidents Clinton, Giulliani, Christie and Trump about predictions.

  172. nobody without exactly the right pedigree, career path and history of correct public statements will be accepted by [FACTION_OF_YOUR_CHOICE].
    10 months out, zero debates held, many possible candidates still on the fence. it’s impossible to say who has any shot and who doesn’t just ask Presidents Clinton, Giulliani, Christie and Trump about predictions.

  173. The author of the Current Affairs article (who is, in effect, Current Affairs) is a huge Bernie Sanders supproter. He wrote as recently as February that Sanders is the only way to get rid of Trump. He has written hit pieces on other Democratic candidates besides Buttigieg, and if you look at just the titles of his pieces you can see that his whole schtick is to be a smarter-than-everyone-else rabble-rouser.
    The punch line of the piece on Buttigieg is Pete Buttigieg is all about Pete Buttigieg. This comes after a long string of bombs lobbed at Ivy-Leaguers and Rhodes scholars, each one about how Nathan Robinson doesn’t “trust” people with each of a list of Buttigieg’s attributes and achievements.
    Since Robinson is is currently studying for a PhD in sociology at Harvard, as dessert after getting his JD at Yale, perhaps it would be worth speculating as to whether Nathan Robinson is all about Nathan Robinson, and no more trustworthy than he suggests Buttigieg is. (I am reminded of what Sam Gamgee said at the Prancing Pony when Aragorn asked to accompany the hobbits. Yes, let’s not trust strangers, “and let’s begin with him.” 😉
    Robinson wants Sanders. As if Sanders cares about anyone else but Bernie Sanders, the guy who won’t even join the party under whose banner he’s running, and who IIRC is already registered as a Senate candidate for next time as an independent.
    Put one minute of Clickbait talking incoherent baby talk next to a minute of Mayor Pete, and weep. It would be hard to name a single quality that they have in common.
    And don’t trust anyone who’s writing vicious takedowns about any of them at this point. As cleek said, we’re almost a year away from the first primary; WTFF.

  174. The author of the Current Affairs article (who is, in effect, Current Affairs) is a huge Bernie Sanders supproter. He wrote as recently as February that Sanders is the only way to get rid of Trump. He has written hit pieces on other Democratic candidates besides Buttigieg, and if you look at just the titles of his pieces you can see that his whole schtick is to be a smarter-than-everyone-else rabble-rouser.
    The punch line of the piece on Buttigieg is Pete Buttigieg is all about Pete Buttigieg. This comes after a long string of bombs lobbed at Ivy-Leaguers and Rhodes scholars, each one about how Nathan Robinson doesn’t “trust” people with each of a list of Buttigieg’s attributes and achievements.
    Since Robinson is is currently studying for a PhD in sociology at Harvard, as dessert after getting his JD at Yale, perhaps it would be worth speculating as to whether Nathan Robinson is all about Nathan Robinson, and no more trustworthy than he suggests Buttigieg is. (I am reminded of what Sam Gamgee said at the Prancing Pony when Aragorn asked to accompany the hobbits. Yes, let’s not trust strangers, “and let’s begin with him.” 😉
    Robinson wants Sanders. As if Sanders cares about anyone else but Bernie Sanders, the guy who won’t even join the party under whose banner he’s running, and who IIRC is already registered as a Senate candidate for next time as an independent.
    Put one minute of Clickbait talking incoherent baby talk next to a minute of Mayor Pete, and weep. It would be hard to name a single quality that they have in common.
    And don’t trust anyone who’s writing vicious takedowns about any of them at this point. As cleek said, we’re almost a year away from the first primary; WTFF.

  175. Thanks Janie, a useful corrective. I’ve gotten out of the habit of double checking what folks have previously written, but, sadly, I’m probably going to have to start doing it again.

  176. Thanks Janie, a useful corrective. I’ve gotten out of the habit of double checking what folks have previously written, but, sadly, I’m probably going to have to start doing it again.

  177. The left of the party won’t accept a white male.
    Now that is horsefeathers. All the polling I’ve seen suggests that the vast majority of likely Democratic voters would support the candidate they think has the best chance of beating Trump, irrespective of age, sex or ethnic background.
    And indeed ideology.

  178. The left of the party won’t accept a white male.
    Now that is horsefeathers. All the polling I’ve seen suggests that the vast majority of likely Democratic voters would support the candidate they think has the best chance of beating Trump, irrespective of age, sex or ethnic background.
    And indeed ideology.

  179. But only four months away from the first debate.
    Which suggests that Democrats should resist the temptation to knock too many lumps out of each other.

  180. But only four months away from the first debate.
    Which suggests that Democrats should resist the temptation to knock too many lumps out of each other.

  181. I can’t bear to look at a 30-odd person firing squad for the next 20 months unless p and the Republican Party are smack dab in the middle as the only targets.

  182. I can’t bear to look at a 30-odd person firing squad for the next 20 months unless p and the Republican Party are smack dab in the middle as the only targets.

  183. The left of the party won’t accept a white male.
    If you had said “straight white male”, you might have had a stronger case. (Of course, that wouldn’t exclude Buttigieg, would it?) And I’m not really convinced that the left of the Democratic Party has control. Influence, sure. But not control — so being who they want is only helpful.

  184. The left of the party won’t accept a white male.
    If you had said “straight white male”, you might have had a stronger case. (Of course, that wouldn’t exclude Buttigieg, would it?) And I’m not really convinced that the left of the Democratic Party has control. Influence, sure. But not control — so being who they want is only helpful.

  187. Gotta say, however, if we are going to have our noses rubbed in a Democratic Party circular firing squad, I’ll need to see Sanders’ tax returns.
    Maybe he invested in some of p’s rum deals.
    Like Napolean, this malign excuse for a tumor should be exiled to St. Helena, with the additional feature of a nuclear air strike once he is there:
    http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2019/04/man-sold-world

  188. Gotta say, however, if we are going to have our noses rubbed in a Democratic Party circular firing squad, I’ll need to see Sanders’ tax returns.
    Maybe he invested in some of p’s rum deals.
    Like Napolean, this malign excuse for a tumor should be exiled to St. Helena, with the additional feature of a nuclear air strike once he is there:
    http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2019/04/man-sold-world

  189. Haven’t been able to comment up til now (had an eye operation yesterday – vitrectomy and ERM peel under local anaesthetic for those interested in such arcana – and trying side effects today), but have been keeping up with comments.
    1. I found Nigel’s New Yorker piece on Buttigieg interesting and hopeful (not for the first time about PG).
    2. I found lj’s addendum depressing, and although I thought the piece quoted was wrongheaded in various ways it still got to me.
    3. I found Janie’s response heartening and encouraging (excellent background, context and argument – depression averted).
    4. I agree about the firing squad. And although I know her age is/maybe should be a problem, I am rather keen on Warren, mainly for the reasons hilzoy often gives about her proven competence understanding issues and getting good stuff actually done (until it gets undone by bad actors).
    Clearly, I am but a straw in the wind. But given our Brexit madness, can you really blame me? This is not an invitation to talk about Brexit – I know nobody who has any clue about what is actually going to happen, including seasoned political observers on left and right.

  190. Haven’t been able to comment up til now (had an eye operation yesterday – vitrectomy and ERM peel under local anaesthetic for those interested in such arcana – and trying side effects today), but have been keeping up with comments.
    1. I found Nigel’s New Yorker piece on Buttigieg interesting and hopeful (not for the first time about PG).
    2. I found lj’s addendum depressing, and although I thought the piece quoted was wrongheaded in various ways it still got to me.
    3. I found Janie’s response heartening and encouraging (excellent background, context and argument – depression averted).
    4. I agree about the firing squad. And although I know her age is/maybe should be a problem, I am rather keen on Warren, mainly for the reasons hilzoy often gives about her proven competence understanding issues and getting good stuff actually done (until it gets undone by bad actors).
    Clearly, I am but a straw in the wind. But given our Brexit madness, can you really blame me? This is not an invitation to talk about Brexit – I know nobody who has any clue about what is actually going to happen, including seasoned political observers on left and right.

  195. I know nobody who has any clue about what is actually going to happen…
    Probably since no such person exists.
    Though we might find out soon enough.
    I wish you a speedy recovery, GFTNC.

  196. I know nobody who has any clue about what is actually going to happen…
    Probably since no such person exists.
    Though we might find out soon enough.
    I wish you a speedy recovery, GFTNC.

  199. But only four months away from the first debate.
    This is true, although depressing as hell. We are never not in a presidential campaign at this point, and that can go on the list with a lot of other things as being a symptom of our illness.
    Sanders and Biden are too old to do the job.
    I agree.
    Pro Bono: Presumably you think the same about Warren?
    Obviously I can’t answer for Pro Bono, but like GftNC, I like Warren. For that matter, I would vote for any D against any R, and will certainly do so for the rest of my life, although FSM forbid it would be Gabbard, and I hope it’s not Biden or Bernie.
    Anyhow, Warren is seven years younger than Biden and eight years younger than Bernie. As one of my younger generation pals keeps saying, Biden was born during the Battle of Stalingrad and Bernie was born before Pearl Harbor.
    I want someone younger.

  200. But only four months away from the first debate.
    This is true, although depressing as hell. We are never not in a presidential campaign at this point, and that can go on the list with a lot of other things as being a symptom of our illness.
    Sanders and Biden are too old to do the job.
    I agree.
    Pro Bono: Presumably you think the same about Warren?
    Obviously I can’t answer for Pro Bono, but like GftNC, I like Warren. For that matter, I would vote for any D against any R, and will certainly do so for the rest of my life, although FSM forbid it would be Gabbard, and I hope it’s not Biden or Bernie.
    Anyhow, Warren is seven years younger than Biden and eight years younger than Bernie. As one of my younger generation pals keeps saying, Biden was born during the Battle of Stalingrad and Bernie was born before Pearl Harbor.
    I want someone younger.

  201. Presumably you think the same about Warren?
    I do, but there’s room for disagreement. Seven years younger is a lot once you’re in your seventies.
    I hope your eye heals well GftNC.

  202. Presumably you think the same about Warren?
    I do, but there’s room for disagreement. Seven years younger is a lot once you’re in your seventies.
    I hope your eye heals well GftNC.

  203. I also want someone that isn’t going to do the whole “look forward not back” thing, but instead is going to pursue accountability for crimes 2016-2020.
    Sure, look forward, AFTER crucifying the criminal fnckers.

  204. I also want someone that isn’t going to do the whole “look forward not back” thing, but instead is going to pursue accountability for crimes 2016-2020.
    Sure, look forward, AFTER crucifying the criminal fnckers.

  205. Sanders and Biden are too old to do the job.
    If Warren is too old for the job (and I’m not sure I agree with that, but just for discussion) then clearly Sanders and Biden are. Not only are they older than she is. Consider also the differences in aging between men and women. Even if she was their age, she still might not (or might) be too old just because they are.

  206. Sanders and Biden are too old to do the job.
    If Warren is too old for the job (and I’m not sure I agree with that, but just for discussion) then clearly Sanders and Biden are. Not only are they older than she is. Consider also the differences in aging between men and women. Even if she was their age, she still might not (or might) be too old just because they are.

  209. Thanks Pro Bono.
    After this morning’s alarm, when I woke up with what seemed a permanently paralysed eye pointing sideways/outwards, not one of the litany of possible side-effects they warned me about, I’m very happy with the things they did warn me about (mostly a huge air bubble floating in that eye, which apparently will take a week or so to dissipate). I comforted myself about the wall-eye until I got the call back from the consultant that it was probably the aftermath of the local anaesthetic, and so it proved. Everything else I can cope with.
    On the issue, I agree with wj, and I am in complete agreement with Snarki.

  210. Thanks Pro Bono.
    After this morning’s alarm, when I woke up with what seemed a permanently paralysed eye pointing sideways/outwards, not one of the litany of possible side-effects they warned me about, I’m very happy with the things they did warn me about (mostly a huge air bubble floating in that eye, which apparently will take a week or so to dissipate). I comforted myself about the wall-eye until I got the call back from the consultant that it was probably the aftermath of the local anaesthetic, and so it proved. Everything else I can cope with.
    On the issue, I agree with wj, and I am in complete agreement with Snarki.

  211. A little something for those who think all Republicans are Trump fans.
    https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2019/04/04/california-lawmakers-sue-trump-administration-as-border-county-cares-for-11000-asylum-seekers/
    Fun quote on San Diego County’s suit: “The county board voted in February to sue the Trump administration over the program’s [relocating asylum seekers inland] end. The vote was 4 to 1, with three of the board’s four Republicans joining one newly elected Democrat in supporting it.” That’s 3 to 1 Republican opposition to Trump administration policy. But then, unlike Congressmen, local officials see the real world up close and personal.

  212. A little something for those who think all Republicans are Trump fans.
    https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2019/04/04/california-lawmakers-sue-trump-administration-as-border-county-cares-for-11000-asylum-seekers/
    Fun quote on San Diego County’s suit: “The county board voted in February to sue the Trump administration over the program’s [relocating asylum seekers inland] end. The vote was 4 to 1, with three of the board’s four Republicans joining one newly elected Democrat in supporting it.” That’s 3 to 1 Republican opposition to Trump administration policy. But then, unlike Congressmen, local officials see the real world up close and personal.

  213. Sure, look forward, AFTER crucifying the criminal fnckers.
    Be careful what you wish for. Once politicians start outing each other’s crimes, they may have trouble finding a stopping point.

  214. Sure, look forward, AFTER crucifying the criminal fnckers.
    Be careful what you wish for. Once politicians start outing each other’s crimes, they may have trouble finding a stopping point.

  215. I like Bernie. But I feel his time has passed.
    I like Warren better this time, but there are many others to consider.
    Any Dem will do in a storm (yes, we have one), and they need to win the general.
    Then they step aside and appoint AOC as “interim temporary acting president”.
    Now the GOP may squawk, but if they fight the release of p’s tax returns all the way, and the SC goes along with this sham, then they have demonstrated beyond any shadow of a doubt that they consider the Constitution nothing but a “scrap of paper” (to borrow a term – Bush v. Gore was the opening shot in a battle for the very soul of this country).

  216. I like Bernie. But I feel his time has passed.
    I like Warren better this time, but there are many others to consider.
    Any Dem will do in a storm (yes, we have one), and they need to win the general.
    Then they step aside and appoint AOC as “interim temporary acting president”.
    Now the GOP may squawk, but if they fight the release of p’s tax returns all the way, and the SC goes along with this sham, then they have demonstrated beyond any shadow of a doubt that they consider the Constitution nothing but a “scrap of paper” (to borrow a term – Bush v. Gore was the opening shot in a battle for the very soul of this country).

  217. Be careful what you wish for. Once politicians start outing each other’s crimes, they may have trouble finding a stopping point.
    Personally, I’m pretty much in favor of all crimes getting “outed”. Tell me which crimes you believe should not see the light of day. I am curious.
    But I guess it all comes down to which crimes are indeed really crimes. There’s the rub.

  218. Be careful what you wish for. Once politicians start outing each other’s crimes, they may have trouble finding a stopping point.
    Personally, I’m pretty much in favor of all crimes getting “outed”. Tell me which crimes you believe should not see the light of day. I am curious.
    But I guess it all comes down to which crimes are indeed really crimes. There’s the rub.

  219. Once politicians start outing each other’s crimes, they may have trouble finding a stopping point.
    Yeah, they might have to open up about all the crimes they have engaged in — which would constitute an obvious stopping point. All their crimes. Oh, the horror!

  220. Once politicians start outing each other’s crimes, they may have trouble finding a stopping point.
    Yeah, they might have to open up about all the crimes they have engaged in — which would constitute an obvious stopping point. All their crimes. Oh, the horror!

  221. Once politicians start outing each other’s crimes, they may have trouble finding a stopping point.
    Personally, I’m pretty much in favor of all crimes getting “outed”. Tell me which crimes you believe should not see the light of day. I am curious.
    It’s not the job of a President (though Congress does have that role).
    The most a new President might do is order the publishing of the Mueller report in its entirety.
    I’m any event, I look forward to the SDNY indicting ex-President Trump.

  222. Once politicians start outing each other’s crimes, they may have trouble finding a stopping point.
    Personally, I’m pretty much in favor of all crimes getting “outed”. Tell me which crimes you believe should not see the light of day. I am curious.
    It’s not the job of a President (though Congress does have that role).
    The most a new President might do is order the publishing of the Mueller report in its entirety.
    I’m any event, I look forward to the SDNY indicting ex-President Trump.

  223. It’s not the job of a President (though Congress does have that role).
    I feel you are reading a bit too much into my generic response to Chas WT’s generic claim regarding “politicians” in a general sense and “outing crimes” as the specific office of the Presidency was not mentioned by either of us.
    But neither here nor there. I might add as an aside however, that the President is the chief executive who picks an Attorney General (and other Justice Department managerial staff) who in turn oversees a department that is specifically tasked with “outing (some) crimes”, and the overall direction of which crimes get “outed” is directly influenced by his personnel and policy proclivities. So yes, the President is not directly involved with “outing crimes”, however he does have an important role in determining which crimes may get outed and which may just, for whatever reason, go unnoticed.

  224. It’s not the job of a President (though Congress does have that role).
    I feel you are reading a bit too much into my generic response to Chas WT’s generic claim regarding “politicians” in a general sense and “outing crimes” as the specific office of the Presidency was not mentioned by either of us.
    But neither here nor there. I might add as an aside however, that the President is the chief executive who picks an Attorney General (and other Justice Department managerial staff) who in turn oversees a department that is specifically tasked with “outing (some) crimes”, and the overall direction of which crimes get “outed” is directly influenced by his personnel and policy proclivities. So yes, the President is not directly involved with “outing crimes”, however he does have an important role in determining which crimes may get outed and which may just, for whatever reason, go unnoticed.

  225. CharlesWT: Personally, I’m pretty much in favor of all crimes getting “outed”. Tell me which crimes you believe should not see the light of day. I am curious.
    Nigel: It’s not the job of a President (though Congress does have that role).
    Actually, seeing that “the laws are faithfully executed” is exactly the President’s job. Explicitly in his oath of office, in fact. (Admittedly, you’d never know it from the current administration. But most in the past have done rather better. Not as good as one might wish, perhaps, but way better.)

  226. CharlesWT: Personally, I’m pretty much in favor of all crimes getting “outed”. Tell me which crimes you believe should not see the light of day. I am curious.
    Nigel: It’s not the job of a President (though Congress does have that role).
    Actually, seeing that “the laws are faithfully executed” is exactly the President’s job. Explicitly in his oath of office, in fact. (Admittedly, you’d never know it from the current administration. But most in the past have done rather better. Not as good as one might wish, perhaps, but way better.)

  227. Tell me which crimes you believe should not see the light of day. I am curious.
    I personally wouldn’t mind seeing any and all politicians who have broken any law or regulation, good or bad, being outed.
    But, it’s possible, from a libertarian point of view, to have mixed feelings about the impact of such outings on the public. Libertarians think everyone should always have a skeptical view of government. But, when people lose confidence in government, they just seem to want more government to fix what they see as not working.

  228. Tell me which crimes you believe should not see the light of day. I am curious.
    I personally wouldn’t mind seeing any and all politicians who have broken any law or regulation, good or bad, being outed.
    But, it’s possible, from a libertarian point of view, to have mixed feelings about the impact of such outings on the public. Libertarians think everyone should always have a skeptical view of government. But, when people lose confidence in government, they just seem to want more government to fix what they see as not working.

  229. Presidents of course put their thumb on the scale by their choice of AG, and help steer the policy direction of the Justice Department, but the idea that they should direct the prosecution of their predecessors, however much those individuals might deserve it, is disturbing to me at least.

  230. Presidents of course put their thumb on the scale by their choice of AG, and help steer the policy direction of the Justice Department, but the idea that they should direct the prosecution of their predecessors, however much those individuals might deserve it, is disturbing to me at least.

  233. IMO, the public execution of war criminals (lookin’ at you, Dubya) would provide a strong incentive to “not do war crimes”.
    Heads of state should be on the hook, literally, for harsher judgment. It’s not like they were forced to take the job.

  234. IMO, the public execution of war criminals (lookin’ at you, Dubya) would provide a strong incentive to “not do war crimes”.
    Heads of state should be on the hook, literally, for harsher judgment. It’s not like they were forced to take the job.

  235. I would not have minded, if Obama on his first day in office had ordered the arrest and extradition to The Hague of several members of the GWB administration* with a letter attached that it would be impossible to properly do a war crimes trial in the US with top US officials as the defendants and that thus the conditions for a trial in The Hague were fulfilled.
    It would have cost him his office of course but I doubt that the US would have gone to war with the Netherlands over it (by applying the ‘Invade The Hague’ Act of 2002).
    *and a few from Clinton’s time too plus Kissinger.

  236. I would not have minded, if Obama on his first day in office had ordered the arrest and extradition to The Hague of several members of the GWB administration* with a letter attached that it would be impossible to properly do a war crimes trial in the US with top US officials as the defendants and that thus the conditions for a trial in The Hague were fulfilled.
    It would have cost him his office of course but I doubt that the US would have gone to war with the Netherlands over it (by applying the ‘Invade The Hague’ Act of 2002).
    *and a few from Clinton’s time too plus Kissinger.

  237. but the idea that they should direct the prosecution of their predecessors, however much those individuals might deserve it, is disturbing to me at least.
    As near as I can tell, the “outing of crimes” by politicians is generally confined to the outing of the trespasses of their current political opponents, because there is a real or perceived current political advantage to be gained by doing so.
    As for those “predecessors”, well, if you believe initiating wars on false pretenses, condoning and/or authorizing torture, and deliberately lying to home loan borrowers are not crimes worthy of “outing” then there’s not much more I can say.
    But I do not believe you actually believe those things.
    Best to you, sir. Good luck with that Brexit dilemma/circus.

  238. but the idea that they should direct the prosecution of their predecessors, however much those individuals might deserve it, is disturbing to me at least.
    As near as I can tell, the “outing of crimes” by politicians is generally confined to the outing of the trespasses of their current political opponents, because there is a real or perceived current political advantage to be gained by doing so.
    As for those “predecessors”, well, if you believe initiating wars on false pretenses, condoning and/or authorizing torture, and deliberately lying to home loan borrowers are not crimes worthy of “outing” then there’s not much more I can say.
    But I do not believe you actually believe those things.
    Best to you, sir. Good luck with that Brexit dilemma/circus.

  239. “Libertarians think everyone should always have a skeptical view of government.”
    Count that bullet point on the libertarian bucket list now fulfilled.
    No one, including libertarians, is going to like the consequences of that fulfillment.

  240. “Libertarians think everyone should always have a skeptical view of government.”
    Count that bullet point on the libertarian bucket list now fulfilled.
    No one, including libertarians, is going to like the consequences of that fulfillment.

  241. if you believe initiating wars on false pretenses, condoning and/or authorizing torture, and deliberately lying to home loan borrowers are not crimes worthy of “outing” then there’s not much more I can say.
    I said no such thing.
    But it is not up to Presidents to prosecute. Would you have Trump have that power ? He has corrupted the justice system sufficiently without it.

  242. if you believe initiating wars on false pretenses, condoning and/or authorizing torture, and deliberately lying to home loan borrowers are not crimes worthy of “outing” then there’s not much more I can say.
    I said no such thing.
    But it is not up to Presidents to prosecute. Would you have Trump have that power ? He has corrupted the justice system sufficiently without it.

  245. But it is not up to Presidents to prosecute.
    NOBODY HAS MADE THAT CLAIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Please stop.

  246. But it is not up to Presidents to prosecute.
    NOBODY HAS MADE THAT CLAIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Please stop.

  247. Libertarians think everyone should always have a skeptical view of government.
    Unless, of course, it is a government you happen to like.

  248. Libertarians think everyone should always have a skeptical view of government.
    Unless, of course, it is a government you happen to like.

  249. Libertarians think everyone should always have a skeptical view of government.
    Unless, of course, it is a government you happen to like.
    Well without that, how do you differentiate a full out libertarian from an anarchist? Seriously.
    My sense is that, except for the extremists, libertarians are actually good with at least some government. But it’s difficult to get the true believers to get concrete about which government functions they are OK with.

  250. Libertarians think everyone should always have a skeptical view of government.
    Unless, of course, it is a government you happen to like.
    Well without that, how do you differentiate a full out libertarian from an anarchist? Seriously.
    My sense is that, except for the extremists, libertarians are actually good with at least some government. But it’s difficult to get the true believers to get concrete about which government functions they are OK with.

  251. Unless, of course, it is a government you happen to like.
    Which is OK since there’ll never be a government that we will happen to like.
    My sense is that, except for the extremists, libertarians are actually good with at least some government.
    A debate between two libertarians:
    “For the nonce, there is no daylight between the policy prescriptions favored by the gradualist anarchist and the minarchist. We should rightly be part of the same libertarian coalition for free minds and free markets. I assure you, the lowest-priority items on my government-smashing to-do list are the elements of the night watchman state that most minarchist libertarians would like to preserve.
    …
    “Confusing libertarianism with anarchism is no way to build a successful, influential social movement, which is ultimately what I’m after. We want to help make the world more free, more peaceful, and more prosperous by reducing the size, scope, and spending of government and empowering individuals to pursue happiness as they see fit. At worst, “taxation is theft” is a bullet-proof conversation stopper, like wearing an “Ask Me about My Herpes” T-shirt to a swingers club.”
    Debate: Be an Anarchist, Not a Minarchist: Should we be satisfied with limited government rather than no government?

  252. Unless, of course, it is a government you happen to like.
    Which is OK since there’ll never be a government that we will happen to like.
    My sense is that, except for the extremists, libertarians are actually good with at least some government.
    A debate between two libertarians:
    “For the nonce, there is no daylight between the policy prescriptions favored by the gradualist anarchist and the minarchist. We should rightly be part of the same libertarian coalition for free minds and free markets. I assure you, the lowest-priority items on my government-smashing to-do list are the elements of the night watchman state that most minarchist libertarians would like to preserve.
    …
    “Confusing libertarianism with anarchism is no way to build a successful, influential social movement, which is ultimately what I’m after. We want to help make the world more free, more peaceful, and more prosperous by reducing the size, scope, and spending of government and empowering individuals to pursue happiness as they see fit. At worst, “taxation is theft” is a bullet-proof conversation stopper, like wearing an “Ask Me about My Herpes” T-shirt to a swingers club.”
    Debate: Be an Anarchist, Not a Minarchist: Should we be satisfied with limited government rather than no government?

  253. So, an anarchist would divulge their herpes infection, but a libertarian wouldn’t?
    Maybe Frank Luntz could be a help to you guys in your word choices.
    “Don’t say ‘herpes’, say “Surprise!”, but only if asked directly.
    Also, don’t tell anyone that taxes will be cut so deeply that we’ll have to do away with research on and prevention of socially transmitted happiness.

  254. So, an anarchist would divulge their herpes infection, but a libertarian wouldn’t?
    Maybe Frank Luntz could be a help to you guys in your word choices.
    “Don’t say ‘herpes’, say “Surprise!”, but only if asked directly.
    Also, don’t tell anyone that taxes will be cut so deeply that we’ll have to do away with research on and prevention of socially transmitted happiness.

  255. I’m curious.
    If a no-government condition comes to pass, and the rest of us don’t like THAT, how will anarchists, monarchists, and libertarians force us not to form government as part of OUR pursuit of happiness?

  256. I’m curious.
    If a no-government condition comes to pass, and the rest of us don’t like THAT, how will anarchists, monarchists, and libertarians force us not to form government as part of OUR pursuit of happiness?

  259. If a no-government condition comes to pass, and the rest of us don’t like THAT, how will anarchists, monarchists, and libertarians force us not to form government as part of OUR pursuit of happiness?
    Within a libertarian society, you should be able to form any associations, institutions, or governments you like as long as everyone who is a party to them is so of their own free will.

  260. If a no-government condition comes to pass, and the rest of us don’t like THAT, how will anarchists, monarchists, and libertarians force us not to form government as part of OUR pursuit of happiness?
    Within a libertarian society, you should be able to form any associations, institutions, or governments you like as long as everyone who is a party to them is so of their own free will.

  261. What will all of us do at four-way stop sign intersections?
    Have a panel discussion on Free Will as traffic backs up?
    Or will we get out of our cars, cut off our slausons and continue on our journeys slausonless?

  262. What will all of us do at four-way stop sign intersections?
    Have a panel discussion on Free Will as traffic backs up?
    Or will we get out of our cars, cut off our slausons and continue on our journeys slausonless?

  263. Libertarians think everyone should always have a skeptical view of government.
    I certainly do, to a reasonable degree (says me). But I’m skeptical of every other kind of solution to whatever problem, too.
    From CharlesWT’s quote (not his own words):
    We want to help make the world more free, more peaceful, and more prosperous by reducing the size, scope, and spending of government and empowering individuals to pursue happiness as they see fit.
    If you replace everything after the word “by” with something along the lines of “whatever best gets us there, knowing nothing is likely to be perfect,” I’m right there with the quoted libertarian. I just don’t get this obsession with reducing government as the one thing that’s going to make everything great, as though government exists in opposition to the desires of humanity rather than as something humanity has chosen to pursue its desires. I’m still waiting for an example of a complex and ordered society that works with little to no government.

  264. Libertarians think everyone should always have a skeptical view of government.
    I certainly do, to a reasonable degree (says me). But I’m skeptical of every other kind of solution to whatever problem, too.
    From CharlesWT’s quote (not his own words):
    We want to help make the world more free, more peaceful, and more prosperous by reducing the size, scope, and spending of government and empowering individuals to pursue happiness as they see fit.
    If you replace everything after the word “by” with something along the lines of “whatever best gets us there, knowing nothing is likely to be perfect,” I’m right there with the quoted libertarian. I just don’t get this obsession with reducing government as the one thing that’s going to make everything great, as though government exists in opposition to the desires of humanity rather than as something humanity has chosen to pursue its desires. I’m still waiting for an example of a complex and ordered society that works with little to no government.

  265. Within a libertarian society, you should be able to form any associations, institutions, or governments you like as long as everyone who is a party to them is so of their own free will.
    But I look at, for example, Somalia. And that’s not how things worked out.
    I’d be interested in a libertarian take on why not. My own guess, for what little it’s worth, is that something like the libertarian vision is only viable when everybody is already committed to it. And I mean “everybody” in the sense of “not enough dissenters to form an army and take over” — which warlordism is what we see in Somalia, much of Afghanistan, etc.

  266. Within a libertarian society, you should be able to form any associations, institutions, or governments you like as long as everyone who is a party to them is so of their own free will.
    But I look at, for example, Somalia. And that’s not how things worked out.
    I’d be interested in a libertarian take on why not. My own guess, for what little it’s worth, is that something like the libertarian vision is only viable when everybody is already committed to it. And I mean “everybody” in the sense of “not enough dissenters to form an army and take over” — which warlordism is what we see in Somalia, much of Afghanistan, etc.

  267. I’m still waiting for an example of a complex and ordered society that works with little to no government.
    The late nineteenth-century UK has been described as having been a night-watchman state that didn’t provide much beyond the military, the police, and courts. The twentieth century and the ensuing wars changed that.

  268. I’m still waiting for an example of a complex and ordered society that works with little to no government.
    The late nineteenth-century UK has been described as having been a night-watchman state that didn’t provide much beyond the military, the police, and courts. The twentieth century and the ensuing wars changed that.

  269. On Robinson, Buttigieg and Sanders, with a bit about Samwise Gamgee
    In sideways order— I will probably vote for Sanders in the primary and whoever the Democrats choose in November. Sanders is too old and probably has something embarrassing in the tax returns, but I prefer him to the others, though Warren would be okay. Warren should be doing better than she is. We Sanders supporters like him because he is social democrat in his gut and not just as the polls shift. Where he does shift it is often in response to pressure from his left, as on Palestine. He did this early. We like that we can bend him to our will.
    Robinson and Buttigieg— Robinson is one of my favorite political writers because he is leftist and writes long pieces arguing for his positions. I found his piece on Buttigieg convincing on the foreign policy bits ( where he has been criticized by others) but I am on the fence regarding his actual record as Mayor because I know nothing about that and couldn’t judge the fairness of the piece without doing a lot more reading.
    On Sam’s judgement of Aragorn— Sam was wrong. Sam was arguably the best person in Middle Earth, humble, courageous and decent, but he imbibed a few prejudices from his old gaffer. He does this again at a crucial moment when Sméagol is on the verge of repentance and Sam misjudges the situation and snaps at him.
    (My IPad knows how to spell Sméagol. Interesting.)

  270. On Robinson, Buttigieg and Sanders, with a bit about Samwise Gamgee
    In sideways order— I will probably vote for Sanders in the primary and whoever the Democrats choose in November. Sanders is too old and probably has something embarrassing in the tax returns, but I prefer him to the others, though Warren would be okay. Warren should be doing better than she is. We Sanders supporters like him because he is social democrat in his gut and not just as the polls shift. Where he does shift it is often in response to pressure from his left, as on Palestine. He did this early. We like that we can bend him to our will.
    Robinson and Buttigieg— Robinson is one of my favorite political writers because he is leftist and writes long pieces arguing for his positions. I found his piece on Buttigieg convincing on the foreign policy bits ( where he has been criticized by others) but I am on the fence regarding his actual record as Mayor because I know nothing about that and couldn’t judge the fairness of the piece without doing a lot more reading.
    On Sam’s judgement of Aragorn— Sam was wrong. Sam was arguably the best person in Middle Earth, humble, courageous and decent, but he imbibed a few prejudices from his old gaffer. He does this again at a crucial moment when Sméagol is on the verge of repentance and Sam misjudges the situation and snaps at him.
    (My IPad knows how to spell Sméagol. Interesting.)

  271. The late nineteenth-century UK has been described as having been a night-watchman state that didn’t provide much beyond the military, the police, and courts.
    A friend of mine once described me to my future wife as the best combination of brains and brawn. That’s me! I have been described that way, after all.
    But let’s take that description (of the late-19th-C UK, not me) as being accurate. That’s it? Might there have been a particular set of conditions at the time that allowed this to be true? Do they apply anywhere now? Did they apply anywhere else at any other time? IDK.

  272. The late nineteenth-century UK has been described as having been a night-watchman state that didn’t provide much beyond the military, the police, and courts.
    A friend of mine once described me to my future wife as the best combination of brains and brawn. That’s me! I have been described that way, after all.
    But let’s take that description (of the late-19th-C UK, not me) as being accurate. That’s it? Might there have been a particular set of conditions at the time that allowed this to be true? Do they apply anywhere now? Did they apply anywhere else at any other time? IDK.

  273. Donald — Sam was wrong about Aragorn, but he was right to ask the question. (He was unqualifiedly “wrong” in snapping at Gollum, and on the consequences hung a world. But that was pure emotion, fed by hunger and fear and exhaustion, which the question at Bree was not.)
    On the rest, I won’t go on arguing after this, and I only want to address the tip of this iceberg again.
    I don’t “trust” Nathan Robinson any more than he wants us to “trust” Buttigieg. I think the paragraph lj quoted is cheap and nasty and has very little to do with Buttigieg and everything to do with Robinson’s own self-promotion.
    Yes, the “meritocracy” is one of the main pathways to power in this country, but without the meritocracy, we’d have what, a hereditary oligarchy? I myself benefited from the shift to a “meritocracy”: child of poor working class/rural parents, getting a top-notch college education that I could never have afforded otherwise. And it’s a bit rich for someone with Robinson’s credentials to be dismissing Buttigieg for his, and citing Chomsky, who spent his working life … where?
    MIT isn’t the Ivy League, but it may be an even purer expression of academic meritocracy. That, however, is a conversation for another day. Or never.

  274. Donald — Sam was wrong about Aragorn, but he was right to ask the question. (He was unqualifiedly “wrong” in snapping at Gollum, and on the consequences hung a world. But that was pure emotion, fed by hunger and fear and exhaustion, which the question at Bree was not.)
    On the rest, I won’t go on arguing after this, and I only want to address the tip of this iceberg again.
    I don’t “trust” Nathan Robinson any more than he wants us to “trust” Buttigieg. I think the paragraph lj quoted is cheap and nasty and has very little to do with Buttigieg and everything to do with Robinson’s own self-promotion.
    Yes, the “meritocracy” is one of the main pathways to power in this country, but without the meritocracy, we’d have what, a hereditary oligarchy? I myself benefited from the shift to a “meritocracy”: child of poor working class/rural parents, getting a top-notch college education that I could never have afforded otherwise. And it’s a bit rich for someone with Robinson’s credentials to be dismissing Buttigieg for his, and citing Chomsky, who spent his working life … where?
    MIT isn’t the Ivy League, but it may be an even purer expression of academic meritocracy. That, however, is a conversation for another day. Or never.

  275. But let’s take that description (of the late-19th-C UK, not me) as being accurate.
    I would prefer not to. It is a totally inaccurate characterization of British political society at that time.

  276. But let’s take that description (of the late-19th-C UK, not me) as being accurate.
    I would prefer not to. It is a totally inaccurate characterization of British political society at that time.

  277. I would prefer not to. It is a totally inaccurate characterization of British political society at that time.
    In that case, we’ll assume I’m the best combination of brains and brawn. Deal?

  278. I would prefer not to. It is a totally inaccurate characterization of British political society at that time.
    In that case, we’ll assume I’m the best combination of brains and brawn. Deal?

  281. The libertarian vision is not viable. Because of healthcare*.
    It’s not possible for everyone to accumulate enough wealth to pay for their healthcare. It’s not human to leave the sick untreated. The well have to help the sick, and we need government to make that work.
    (I just read two libertarian tracts on healthcare. The paucity of their arguments spoke loud.)
    *And for other reasons, but this one is sufficient.

  282. The libertarian vision is not viable. Because of healthcare*.
    It’s not possible for everyone to accumulate enough wealth to pay for their healthcare. It’s not human to leave the sick untreated. The well have to help the sick, and we need government to make that work.
    (I just read two libertarian tracts on healthcare. The paucity of their arguments spoke loud.)
    *And for other reasons, but this one is sufficient.

  283. Yes, the “meritocracy” is one of the main pathways to power in this country, but without the meritocracy, we’d have what, a hereditary oligarchy?
    I know it’s hard to imagine a young person clear enough and determined enough to actually knuckle down and do it, but theoretically if you were an idealistic young person who wanted to change the world, plotting a path through the Ivy League, a Rhodes Scholarship and McKinsey would be an excellent way to understand the status quo from the belly of the beast, and additionally would give you the tools and the credentials to actually get yourself into a position to effect the change. Particularly if, as Janie implies, you are not born into the ruling class. I knew someone who did something very similar, including the Rhodes Scholarship, but then died in his 20s. He was a tremendous loss to his country, as an astonishing variety of people said at his obsequies.

  284. Yes, the “meritocracy” is one of the main pathways to power in this country, but without the meritocracy, we’d have what, a hereditary oligarchy?
    I know it’s hard to imagine a young person clear enough and determined enough to actually knuckle down and do it, but theoretically if you were an idealistic young person who wanted to change the world, plotting a path through the Ivy League, a Rhodes Scholarship and McKinsey would be an excellent way to understand the status quo from the belly of the beast, and additionally would give you the tools and the credentials to actually get yourself into a position to effect the change. Particularly if, as Janie implies, you are not born into the ruling class. I knew someone who did something very similar, including the Rhodes Scholarship, but then died in his 20s. He was a tremendous loss to his country, as an astonishing variety of people said at his obsequies.

  285. “On the rest, I won’t go on arguing after this, ”
    That’s fine. The important thing here is that we agree about Sam.

  286. “On the rest, I won’t go on arguing after this, ”
    That’s fine. The important thing here is that we agree about Sam.

  287. I’d also note that the mean lig expectancy in late nineteenth century England was in the mid 40s.
    Government might have been limited in modern terms, but so were a great many other things.

  288. I’d also note that the mean lig expectancy in late nineteenth century England was in the mid 40s.
    Government might have been limited in modern terms, but so were a great many other things.

  291. Between monarchy/mercantilism and democracy/welfare state, there was about a 50 year period between about 1825 and 1875 that was pretty laissez-faire. Which, with the corn laws and the attitude that it wasn’t the role of government to provide relief to people, lead to quite a few deaths.
    By 1890 public employment had reached about 3.5%, a fraction of the 16.5(currently) to 21.5% in recent years.

  292. Between monarchy/mercantilism and democracy/welfare state, there was about a 50 year period between about 1825 and 1875 that was pretty laissez-faire. Which, with the corn laws and the attitude that it wasn’t the role of government to provide relief to people, lead to quite a few deaths.
    By 1890 public employment had reached about 3.5%, a fraction of the 16.5(currently) to 21.5% in recent years.

  297. Looking at my previous comment, I meant it as friendly, but it might come across as sarcastic. That wasn’t the intent.
    I would try to participate in the 19th century British economy discussion because I read Karl Polanyi’s “ The Great Transformation” once, but it was a long time ago. I remember something that resembled a universal basic income didn’t work out so well.

  298. Looking at my previous comment, I meant it as friendly, but it might come across as sarcastic. That wasn’t the intent.
    I would try to participate in the 19th century British economy discussion because I read Karl Polanyi’s “ The Great Transformation” once, but it was a long time ago. I remember something that resembled a universal basic income didn’t work out so well.

  299. mean life expectancy in late nineteenth century England was in the mid 40s
    Perhaps everyone knows this, but that doesn’t mean that it was normal to die in one’s forties. Child mortality (before five) was about 25%. Now it’s about 0.5%.

  300. mean life expectancy in late nineteenth century England was in the mid 40s
    Perhaps everyone knows this, but that doesn’t mean that it was normal to die in one’s forties. Child mortality (before five) was about 25%. Now it’s about 0.5%.

  301. Donald – I took it as friendly, not sarcastic at all.
    In fact, I was worried that my saying I wouldn’t continue to argue might have come off as stand-offish or unfriendly. It wasn’t meant that way. I don’t like myself (or anyone else 🙂 when I descend into arguing for the sake of arguing, so I wanted to pledge (to myself if no one else!) not to do that.
    There’s obviously a lot to be said about our current situation, and maybe we’ll say some of it later. But for me, not today.

  302. Donald – I took it as friendly, not sarcastic at all.
    In fact, I was worried that my saying I wouldn’t continue to argue might have come off as stand-offish or unfriendly. It wasn’t meant that way. I don’t like myself (or anyone else 🙂 when I descend into arguing for the sake of arguing, so I wanted to pledge (to myself if no one else!) not to do that.
    There’s obviously a lot to be said about our current situation, and maybe we’ll say some of it later. But for me, not today.

  303. that doesn’t mean that it was normal to die in one’s forties. Child mortality (before five) was about 25%.
    Noted, but still, no thanks.
    I’m sure you weren’t trying to argue the opposite, but nonetheless.
    Nobody likes it when government does stuff that bugs them. I don’t, and given where I live it’s kind of a daily occurrence.
    There is a reason that every settled human civilization has evolved a government. Every single one, for the last 10,000 years. Several of the less-settled human civilizations, likewise, if they managed to evolve into communities bigger than an extended family group.
    Libertarians appear to aspire to Locke’s state of nature. That was something Locke made up, a stalking horse he used to argue for the necessity of government. Which really ought not to have been needed, it’s like arguing for the necessity of talking, or cooking, or agriculture, or (in the context of more recent millenia) writing.
    Man is a political animal, said Aristotle. Governments are something that humans do when the size of their community reaches a certain critical mass. We can b*tch about it, and complain that none of us chose to be born into whatever form of that we actually were born into, but it’s basically like b*tching about being born into a family.
    If you look at human history since the agricultural revolution of the late stone age, it’s hard to avoid the conclusion that governments are a thing that humans do. Like they talk, or form family groups, or cook their food rather than eat it all raw as they find it.
    I’m open to counter-arguments, but citing as an example one of the pre-eminent European capitalist/industrial empires is not really persuasive.
    Ask any 19th C resident of the Indian sub-continent how hands-off the UK government was. Or any 19th C Irish person. Or ask any kid working a 12 hour day in a factory or a mine how beneficial the whole laissez-faire arrangement was.
    Some governments are better than others. No government does’t appear to be a human reality. Hands-off minimal “night watchman” government is great if you are living in a community of saints.
    Is that the circumstance we find ourselves in?
    The solution to bad government is not less government. A small amount of bad government can be a very very bad thing indeed. A sufficiently small amount of even good government can be not much more than wishful thinking.
    The solution to bad government is better government.

  304. that doesn’t mean that it was normal to die in one’s forties. Child mortality (before five) was about 25%.
    Noted, but still, no thanks.
    I’m sure you weren’t trying to argue the opposite, but nonetheless.
    Nobody likes it when government does stuff that bugs them. I don’t, and given where I live it’s kind of a daily occurrence.
    There is a reason that every settled human civilization has evolved a government. Every single one, for the last 10,000 years. Several of the less-settled human civilizations, likewise, if they managed to evolve into communities bigger than an extended family group.
    Libertarians appear to aspire to Locke’s state of nature. That was something Locke made up, a stalking horse he used to argue for the necessity of government. Which really ought not to have been needed, it’s like arguing for the necessity of talking, or cooking, or agriculture, or (in the context of more recent millenia) writing.
    Man is a political animal, said Aristotle. Governments are something that humans do when the size of their community reaches a certain critical mass. We can b*tch about it, and complain that none of us chose to be born into whatever form of that we actually were born into, but it’s basically like b*tching about being born into a family.
    If you look at human history since the agricultural revolution of the late stone age, it’s hard to avoid the conclusion that governments are a thing that humans do. Like they talk, or form family groups, or cook their food rather than eat it all raw as they find it.
    I’m open to counter-arguments, but citing as an example one of the pre-eminent European capitalist/industrial empires is not really persuasive.
    Ask any 19th C resident of the Indian sub-continent how hands-off the UK government was. Or any 19th C Irish person. Or ask any kid working a 12 hour day in a factory or a mine how beneficial the whole laissez-faire arrangement was.
    Some governments are better than others. No government does’t appear to be a human reality. Hands-off minimal “night watchman” government is great if you are living in a community of saints.
    Is that the circumstance we find ourselves in?
    The solution to bad government is not less government. A small amount of bad government can be a very very bad thing indeed. A sufficiently small amount of even good government can be not much more than wishful thinking.
    The solution to bad government is better government.

  305. Perhaps everyone knows this, but that doesn’t mean that it was normal to die in one’s forties. Child mortality (before five) was about 25%. Now it’s about 0.5%.
    True, but not necessarily relevant to the argument. Probably the growth of government had something to do with the decline in child mortality. There is the NHS and its predecessors, as well as, no doubt, some public health measures.

  306. Perhaps everyone knows this, but that doesn’t mean that it was normal to die in one’s forties. Child mortality (before five) was about 25%. Now it’s about 0.5%.
    True, but not necessarily relevant to the argument. Probably the growth of government had something to do with the decline in child mortality. There is the NHS and its predecessors, as well as, no doubt, some public health measures.

  307. Perhaps everyone knows this, but that doesn’t mean that it was normal to die in one’s forties. Child mortality (before five) was about 25%. Now it’s about 0.5%.
    byomtov: True, but not necessarily relevant to the argument.
    I took the relevance to be that a life expectancy (at birth) of mid-40s didn’t mean that adults could expect to die at that age. Looking at life expectancy at, say, age 18 would give a much more accurate picture of how long people (meaning people old enough to think about it) expected to live.
    Which would inform the point of the discussion: what “life tenure” for Supreme Court justices would have meant to the folks who were drafting the Constitution.

  308. Perhaps everyone knows this, but that doesn’t mean that it was normal to die in one’s forties. Child mortality (before five) was about 25%. Now it’s about 0.5%.
    byomtov: True, but not necessarily relevant to the argument.
    I took the relevance to be that a life expectancy (at birth) of mid-40s didn’t mean that adults could expect to die at that age. Looking at life expectancy at, say, age 18 would give a much more accurate picture of how long people (meaning people old enough to think about it) expected to live.
    Which would inform the point of the discussion: what “life tenure” for Supreme Court justices would have meant to the folks who were drafting the Constitution.

  309. It’s good to know that attention to critical issues has not been totally lost in the flurry of politics as (now) usual:

    45 percent of registered voters approve of pineapple as a pizza topping, according to a poll by Public Policy Polling. Thirty-five percent disapproved, and 20 percent were not sure.

    Nearly half of Americans embrace an abomination. Truly the end of civilization as we know it is upon us.
    H/T FiveThirtyEight

  310. It’s good to know that attention to critical issues has not been totally lost in the flurry of politics as (now) usual:

    45 percent of registered voters approve of pineapple as a pizza topping, according to a poll by Public Policy Polling. Thirty-five percent disapproved, and 20 percent were not sure.

    Nearly half of Americans embrace an abomination. Truly the end of civilization as we know it is upon us.
    H/T FiveThirtyEight

  311. I come from people who are apt to say, like my brother, “Onions? That ain’t pizza.”
    Pizza a la my grandma, who was born on a farm outside Naples: a thin crust topped with tomato sauce, salt, black pepper, garlic (or garlic salt in a pinch), Parmesan cheese, and oregano. Keep that smeary mozzarella away too. Basil might be okay, but my dad didn’t like basil, so it doesn’t figure in my early memories.
    Don’t tell my brother, but I have been known to put broccoli and walnuts on a pizza. Onions, mushrooms, really, anything savory.
    NOT PINEAPPLE!!!!!!!!!!!
    wj is totally right, this country has gone to the dogs.

  312. I come from people who are apt to say, like my brother, “Onions? That ain’t pizza.”
    Pizza a la my grandma, who was born on a farm outside Naples: a thin crust topped with tomato sauce, salt, black pepper, garlic (or garlic salt in a pinch), Parmesan cheese, and oregano. Keep that smeary mozzarella away too. Basil might be okay, but my dad didn’t like basil, so it doesn’t figure in my early memories.
    Don’t tell my brother, but I have been known to put broccoli and walnuts on a pizza. Onions, mushrooms, really, anything savory.
    NOT PINEAPPLE!!!!!!!!!!!
    wj is totally right, this country has gone to the dogs.

  313. The EIA released the preliminary 2018 electric power generation figures last month. Summary table is here. Numbers are the share for the individual interconnects, not for the US as a whole. For the first time, in all three US power grids, low-carbon sources and natural gas both had a larger share than coal. I split the low-carbon into renewable and nuclear because the mix is so different in the three interconnects.
    Lots of things you could say/ask about this table. Despite two years of effort, the Trump administration has not been able to stop the move away from coal. In terms of emissions, the median power plant in the US is now gas-fired. Why does the West have so much renewable power? Why is nuclear an Eastern thing? What’s with Texas and natural gas?

  314. The EIA released the preliminary 2018 electric power generation figures last month. Summary table is here. Numbers are the share for the individual interconnects, not for the US as a whole. For the first time, in all three US power grids, low-carbon sources and natural gas both had a larger share than coal. I split the low-carbon into renewable and nuclear because the mix is so different in the three interconnects.
    Lots of things you could say/ask about this table. Despite two years of effort, the Trump administration has not been able to stop the move away from coal. In terms of emissions, the median power plant in the US is now gas-fired. Why does the West have so much renewable power? Why is nuclear an Eastern thing? What’s with Texas and natural gas?

  315. Basil might be okay, but my dad didn’t like basil, so it doesn’t figure in my early memories.
    No, basil doesn’t belong on pizza. Pesto (instead of tomato sauce), on the other hand, is delightful.

  316. Basil might be okay, but my dad didn’t like basil, so it doesn’t figure in my early memories.
    No, basil doesn’t belong on pizza. Pesto (instead of tomato sauce), on the other hand, is delightful.

  317. Why does the West have so much renewable power?
    In a word: hydro.
    It’s been a significant part of the power generation mix here forever. Wind and solar are the growth areas, but hydro is still the base for high renewable generation here.
    The West built lots of dams for the water — we’ve got lots of water, but in the “wrong” places both for people and for agriculture. But once you’ve built a dam anyway, the cost of generators is small. And the running costs are low, since you don’t need to buy fuel.

  318. Why does the West have so much renewable power?
    In a word: hydro.
    It’s been a significant part of the power generation mix here forever. Wind and solar are the growth areas, but hydro is still the base for high renewable generation here.
    The West built lots of dams for the water — we’ve got lots of water, but in the “wrong” places both for people and for agriculture. But once you’ve built a dam anyway, the cost of generators is small. And the running costs are low, since you don’t need to buy fuel.

  319. For the record, I know the answers to all the questions that I posed.
    In 2019, the share of wind power in the West will almost certainly pass nuclear there. Both because more wind farms will come online, and because Diablo Canyon will be down to one reactor for most of the year for refueling and associated maintenance. Been a fairly wet winter — it’s possible that low-carbon’s share in the West will be above 50% this year.

  320. For the record, I know the answers to all the questions that I posed.
    In 2019, the share of wind power in the West will almost certainly pass nuclear there. Both because more wind farms will come online, and because Diablo Canyon will be down to one reactor for most of the year for refueling and associated maintenance. Been a fairly wet winter — it’s possible that low-carbon’s share in the West will be above 50% this year.

  321. NOT PINEAPPLE!!!!!!!!!!!
    This human interest story caught some attention recently.
    “Ranch girl” seems like a lovely young woman, and I appreciate and applaud her aplomb and her sensible immunity to being overawed by a political candidate.
    But the whole story just brought me up short. I don’t understand the connection between ranch dressing and pizza. Not in the coastal elitist foodie snob sense, just at all.
    What the hell do you put on pizza that requires ranch dressing? Isn’t it, like, a salad dressing?
    Would you put mayonnaise on pizza? Or mustard? Or butter? Or Worcestershire sauce? Chocolate syrup? Whipped cream?
    Where does this end?
    We’re just trapped in a world we never made.

  322. NOT PINEAPPLE!!!!!!!!!!!
    This human interest story caught some attention recently.
    “Ranch girl” seems like a lovely young woman, and I appreciate and applaud her aplomb and her sensible immunity to being overawed by a political candidate.
    But the whole story just brought me up short. I don’t understand the connection between ranch dressing and pizza. Not in the coastal elitist foodie snob sense, just at all.
    What the hell do you put on pizza that requires ranch dressing? Isn’t it, like, a salad dressing?
    Would you put mayonnaise on pizza? Or mustard? Or butter? Or Worcestershire sauce? Chocolate syrup? Whipped cream?
    Where does this end?
    We’re just trapped in a world we never made.

  325. I do have ranch sometimes instead of blue cheese when I have buffalo chicken pizza. But, really, ranch goes on everything.

  326. I do have ranch sometimes instead of blue cheese when I have buffalo chicken pizza. But, really, ranch goes on everything.

  327. What the hell do you put on pizza that requires ranch dressing? Isn’t it, like, a salad dressing?
    In some places, an order of pizza automatically comes with salad. For which you might want ranch.
    What I find sad (or maybe extremely irritating) is that you are subject to having your image spread around the world, without your consent, for doing nothing more than going to a restaurant. I suppose people get accustomed to privacy being a foreign concept. But I don’t have to like it. And I don’t.
    /curmudgeon

  328. What the hell do you put on pizza that requires ranch dressing? Isn’t it, like, a salad dressing?
    In some places, an order of pizza automatically comes with salad. For which you might want ranch.
    What I find sad (or maybe extremely irritating) is that you are subject to having your image spread around the world, without your consent, for doing nothing more than going to a restaurant. I suppose people get accustomed to privacy being a foreign concept. But I don’t have to like it. And I don’t.
    /curmudgeon

  329. Time to go back to coal fired trains and ships. It’s just a matter of time befor Trump proposes the building of new battleships (MAGA class), why not with combined nuclear and coal power plants (not to forget tar sand derived fuels)? Coal build America, so now let it also tear it down.

  330. Time to go back to coal fired trains and ships. It’s just a matter of time befor Trump proposes the building of new battleships (MAGA class), why not with combined nuclear and coal power plants (not to forget tar sand derived fuels)? Coal build America, so now let it also tear it down.

  331. I suppose people get accustomed to privacy being a foreign concept.
    Sadly, it’s been almost 25 years since I was the resident futurist at one of the big telecoms, writing internal white papers about the end of personal privacy…. There are times when I didn’t like being right.

  332. I suppose people get accustomed to privacy being a foreign concept.
    Sadly, it’s been almost 25 years since I was the resident futurist at one of the big telecoms, writing internal white papers about the end of personal privacy…. There are times when I didn’t like being right.

  333. But, really, ranch goes on everything.
    And there, my friends, is the fundamental divide that plagues our nation.

  334. But, really, ranch goes on everything.
    And there, my friends, is the fundamental divide that plagues our nation.

  335. And there, my friends, is the fundamental divide that plagues our nation.
    Even within families. I took the granddaughters to Chick-Fil-A last week (ever popular because of the inside playground they all have). Granddaughter #1 is a staunch fan of ranch dipping sauce; granddaughter #2 will have nothing to do with it and demands polynesian.
    Both, however, are big fans of the policy of returning the unopened kids meal toy in exchange for an ice cream cone.

  336. And there, my friends, is the fundamental divide that plagues our nation.
    Even within families. I took the granddaughters to Chick-Fil-A last week (ever popular because of the inside playground they all have). Granddaughter #1 is a staunch fan of ranch dipping sauce; granddaughter #2 will have nothing to do with it and demands polynesian.
    Both, however, are big fans of the policy of returning the unopened kids meal toy in exchange for an ice cream cone.

  339. I am not a fan of ranch dressing – it seems somehow appropriate that the original manufacturers were acquired by Clorox.

  340. I am not a fan of ranch dressing – it seems somehow appropriate that the original manufacturers were acquired by Clorox.

  341. Open thread, so foodie diversion:
    I’ve never tasted ranch dressing, but the recipes I have looked at seem awfully rich and creamy; I generally prefer vinaigrette-type salad dressing, although blue cheese has its place (iceberg wedges – staging a comeback with snobby foodies who have scorned iceberg for decades), and I suppose Caesar dressing (which I adore) is essentially mayonnaise based, but saved by the strong flavourings of garlic, anchovies, parmesan etc. I am very interested in regional American food preferences: when my eldest sister (who has been much married) was once married in Denver, and into a foodie family at that, during the week-long festivities I don’t think we were ever served any green vegetables at all, so that we fell like ravening beasts on the starter of Caesar salad at the wedding lunch. And, in the old days (I think it may have changed now), Americans in general were famously so offal-averse that when I went with a group of American friends to a French restaurant in London and ordered kidneys, the chef came out to inspect the (as he thought) American who had actually ordered offal.

  342. Open thread, so foodie diversion:
    I’ve never tasted ranch dressing, but the recipes I have looked at seem awfully rich and creamy; I generally prefer vinaigrette-type salad dressing, although blue cheese has its place (iceberg wedges – staging a comeback with snobby foodies who have scorned iceberg for decades), and I suppose Caesar dressing (which I adore) is essentially mayonnaise based, but saved by the strong flavourings of garlic, anchovies, parmesan etc. I am very interested in regional American food preferences: when my eldest sister (who has been much married) was once married in Denver, and into a foodie family at that, during the week-long festivities I don’t think we were ever served any green vegetables at all, so that we fell like ravening beasts on the starter of Caesar salad at the wedding lunch. And, in the old days (I think it may have changed now), Americans in general were famously so offal-averse that when I went with a group of American friends to a French restaurant in London and ordered kidneys, the chef came out to inspect the (as he thought) American who had actually ordered offal.

  343. I don’t usually eat prepared salad dressing – like GftNC, I usually make a vinaigrette. But sometimes I’m in the mood for something creamier, and this recipe seems like it would be pretty tasty.
    I have certainly eaten plenty of ranch dressing at restaurants, and it isn’t objectionable to my taste. I love mayonnaise based dips and sauces, so there’s that. (Nothing better than aioli, except when you’re in the mood for sriracha mayonnaise.)
    As to American taste preferences, most people I know (and I) eat from a large variety of cuisines, and enjoy the opportunity to do so. If I have a favorite cuisine, it is Vietnamese (and herbed mayonnaise on a banh mi is – yum), but it’s hard to say that, because I would be hard pressed to choose a cuisine that I would want to live without. I’ve found that people from other parts of the world are often less adventurous about trying foreign cuisines than Americans are. Perhaps we used to have a bad reputation with regard to variety, but Italian and Chinese people I’ve known are much more provincial about what they prefer to eat than people I know. This may not be as true in the midwest, or places where immigrants haven’t recently settled.
    As to offal, yeah, most Americans aren’t used to eating it. I like it sometimes, although I rarely cook it myself. I try not to eat mammal meat, but I make an occasional exception for offal if I’m at a restaurant with a reputation for doing it well. The now disgraced Mario Batali was known for it, and I ate sweetbreads at Babbo.
    Food is something we all need, and I’m so grateful to live where so much culinary diversity and delight is available. Just one more reason I’m mystified by people who are anti-immigration.

  344. I don’t usually eat prepared salad dressing – like GftNC, I usually make a vinaigrette. But sometimes I’m in the mood for something creamier, and this recipe seems like it would be pretty tasty.
    I have certainly eaten plenty of ranch dressing at restaurants, and it isn’t objectionable to my taste. I love mayonnaise based dips and sauces, so there’s that. (Nothing better than aioli, except when you’re in the mood for sriracha mayonnaise.)
    As to American taste preferences, most people I know (and I) eat from a large variety of cuisines, and enjoy the opportunity to do so. If I have a favorite cuisine, it is Vietnamese (and herbed mayonnaise on a banh mi is – yum), but it’s hard to say that, because I would be hard pressed to choose a cuisine that I would want to live without. I’ve found that people from other parts of the world are often less adventurous about trying foreign cuisines than Americans are. Perhaps we used to have a bad reputation with regard to variety, but Italian and Chinese people I’ve known are much more provincial about what they prefer to eat than people I know. This may not be as true in the midwest, or places where immigrants haven’t recently settled.
    As to offal, yeah, most Americans aren’t used to eating it. I like it sometimes, although I rarely cook it myself. I try not to eat mammal meat, but I make an occasional exception for offal if I’m at a restaurant with a reputation for doing it well. The now disgraced Mario Batali was known for it, and I ate sweetbreads at Babbo.
    Food is something we all need, and I’m so grateful to live where so much culinary diversity and delight is available. Just one more reason I’m mystified by people who are anti-immigration.

  345. Rather than “people I know” I should have said “Americans I know”. Hope it is obvious that we’re all equally “people”, but since some these days don’t seem to think so, I wanted to make sure I clarified!

  346. Rather than “people I know” I should have said “Americans I know”. Hope it is obvious that we’re all equally “people”, but since some these days don’t seem to think so, I wanted to make sure I clarified!

  347. My favourite pizza is with anchovies and olives, I think it’s called Napolitana – without Mozzarella is an interesting option.
    Pineapple doesn’t belong on pizza IMHO, that’s what the Germans invented “Toast Hawaii” for:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toast_Hawaii
    As for offal, I used to really like it, especially tripe salad, ris de veau and andouilette – the latter is a bit of an acquired taste, though, to put it mildly:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andouillette
    But I’m eating less and less meat these days.

  348. My favourite pizza is with anchovies and olives, I think it’s called Napolitana – without Mozzarella is an interesting option.
    Pineapple doesn’t belong on pizza IMHO, that’s what the Germans invented “Toast Hawaii” for:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toast_Hawaii
    As for offal, I used to really like it, especially tripe salad, ris de veau and andouilette – the latter is a bit of an acquired taste, though, to put it mildly:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andouillette
    But I’m eating less and less meat these days.

  349. Americans in general were famously so offal-averse that when I went with a group of American friends to a French restaurant in London and ordered kidneys, the chef came out to inspect the (as he thought) American who had actually ordered offal.
    When I was growing up (California, mid-century), kidneys and liver were unexceptional as entrees. (I really dislike the taste of liver. But that was a personal foible.) Other organ meats didn’t appear much, but those two were routine.
    I can’t recall ever raising eyebrows when ordering them in a restaurant. Of course, many restaurants don’t have them on the menu. But then, few offer prime rib either….

  350. Americans in general were famously so offal-averse that when I went with a group of American friends to a French restaurant in London and ordered kidneys, the chef came out to inspect the (as he thought) American who had actually ordered offal.
    When I was growing up (California, mid-century), kidneys and liver were unexceptional as entrees. (I really dislike the taste of liver. But that was a personal foible.) Other organ meats didn’t appear much, but those two were routine.
    I can’t recall ever raising eyebrows when ordering them in a restaurant. Of course, many restaurants don’t have them on the menu. But then, few offer prime rib either….

  351. Italian and Chinese people I’ve known are much more provincial about what they prefer to eat than people I know.
    This was definitely true of Italians I knew: one Neapolitan refused to go to a Chinese restaurant in London because the idea, for example, of noodles as opposed to pasta was so unacceptable to him – quite funny in view of the (disputed) origins of pasta (Marco Polo-China). But the Chinese I know (admittedly HK Chinese, not mainland Chinese) are extremely interested in and keen on different cuisines – worldwide as well as other regional Chinese.
    I’ve found that people from other parts of the world are often less adventurous about trying foreign cuisines than Americans are
    This definitely no longer applies to Brits, although it probably did in say the 50s. Even leaving aside the wholesale adoption of Bangladeshi curry etc, one of the great glories of and contributors to e.g. the London food scene is the astonishing diversity and authenticity of cuisines on offer.
    My late husband loved offal so much he would make a point of ordering it whenever it was on the menu, sometimes for both his starter and his main course. He wasn’t mad on tripe, but andouillette, brains, hearts, sweetbreads etc: they were all grist to his mill. Brains start freaking me out after a few bites, but I love liver, kidneys and particularly sweetbreads (ris de veau more than lambs’). It’s most annoying how this stuff has moved from cheap (because not to most people’s taste) to expensive (because fashionable now with foodies, also in the US, particularly after the success of St John’s “Nose to Tail Eating”.) It never had to make this journey with me: probably because of being brought up in Hong Kong I mainly lack the squeamishness reflex.

  352. Italian and Chinese people I’ve known are much more provincial about what they prefer to eat than people I know.
    This was definitely true of Italians I knew: one Neapolitan refused to go to a Chinese restaurant in London because the idea, for example, of noodles as opposed to pasta was so unacceptable to him – quite funny in view of the (disputed) origins of pasta (Marco Polo-China). But the Chinese I know (admittedly HK Chinese, not mainland Chinese) are extremely interested in and keen on different cuisines – worldwide as well as other regional Chinese.
    I’ve found that people from other parts of the world are often less adventurous about trying foreign cuisines than Americans are
    This definitely no longer applies to Brits, although it probably did in say the 50s. Even leaving aside the wholesale adoption of Bangladeshi curry etc, one of the great glories of and contributors to e.g. the London food scene is the astonishing diversity and authenticity of cuisines on offer.
    My late husband loved offal so much he would make a point of ordering it whenever it was on the menu, sometimes for both his starter and his main course. He wasn’t mad on tripe, but andouillette, brains, hearts, sweetbreads etc: they were all grist to his mill. Brains start freaking me out after a few bites, but I love liver, kidneys and particularly sweetbreads (ris de veau more than lambs’). It’s most annoying how this stuff has moved from cheap (because not to most people’s taste) to expensive (because fashionable now with foodies, also in the US, particularly after the success of St John’s “Nose to Tail Eating”.) It never had to make this journey with me: probably because of being brought up in Hong Kong I mainly lack the squeamishness reflex.

  353. probably because of being brought up in Hong Kong I mainly lack the squeamishness reflex.
    I forgot that you grew up in Hong Kong. I was only there for a few days, and can imagine that your multicultural experience was extremely rich. What food, both to eat and to see!
    And, yes, I agree that the UK (at least London) is now a heaven for people who like all kinds of food. People I’ve known from the Chinese mainland (which are all of the Chinese people that I’ve known) strongly prefer Chinese food to anything else.
    I was never offered offal in my household as a child, except for liver and tongue. Some Irish-American families I knew had kidneys on a regular basis. Most people I’ve chatted with about this have never eaten any offal but liver.
    After trying brains on my first trip to France as a teenager, II wasn’t tempted again.

  354. probably because of being brought up in Hong Kong I mainly lack the squeamishness reflex.
    I forgot that you grew up in Hong Kong. I was only there for a few days, and can imagine that your multicultural experience was extremely rich. What food, both to eat and to see!
    And, yes, I agree that the UK (at least London) is now a heaven for people who like all kinds of food. People I’ve known from the Chinese mainland (which are all of the Chinese people that I’ve known) strongly prefer Chinese food to anything else.
    I was never offered offal in my household as a child, except for liver and tongue. Some Irish-American families I knew had kidneys on a regular basis. Most people I’ve chatted with about this have never eaten any offal but liver.
    After trying brains on my first trip to France as a teenager, II wasn’t tempted again.

  355. I’ve been in restaurants in Texas that had mountain oysters on the menu. Never had any desire to order any though.

  356. I’ve been in restaurants in Texas that had mountain oysters on the menu. Never had any desire to order any though.

  357. In my family, whenever we had chicken, there was an argument over who got the heart – all of us kids wanted it. (The other organs, not so much – but they all got eaten.)

  358. In my family, whenever we had chicken, there was an argument over who got the heart – all of us kids wanted it. (The other organs, not so much – but they all got eaten.)

  359. By mountain oysters, CharlesWT, I think I understand you to be talking about testicles? I’ve never had them, although I know many people think that’s what sweetbreads are a euphemism for, but they are of course the thymus and pancreatic glands.
    Yes, the food in HK is spectacular, particularly if you break out of the expat straitjacket as my family majorly did. But the food culture I long for most is that of Singapore, a police state in which I wouldn’t like to live, but home to some of the most fabulous, diverse cuisines in the East, including Chinese. And further to the squeamishness point, as I’m sure you know, the Chinese say (of pigs, but the principle applies to all creatures) “we use everything but the squeak.”

  360. By mountain oysters, CharlesWT, I think I understand you to be talking about testicles? I’ve never had them, although I know many people think that’s what sweetbreads are a euphemism for, but they are of course the thymus and pancreatic glands.
    Yes, the food in HK is spectacular, particularly if you break out of the expat straitjacket as my family majorly did. But the food culture I long for most is that of Singapore, a police state in which I wouldn’t like to live, but home to some of the most fabulous, diverse cuisines in the East, including Chinese. And further to the squeamishness point, as I’m sure you know, the Chinese say (of pigs, but the principle applies to all creatures) “we use everything but the squeak.”

  361. I’ve been in restaurants in Texas that had mountain oysters on the menu.
    Called Rocky Mountain oysters here. Stand 144 at Coors Field in Denver has been serving them since the ballpark opened. Steady if not booming business.
    When I was a kid in Iowa these many years ago, beef offal — at least tongue, heart, liver, and kidneys — was available at any butcher shop.

  362. I’ve been in restaurants in Texas that had mountain oysters on the menu.
    Called Rocky Mountain oysters here. Stand 144 at Coors Field in Denver has been serving them since the ballpark opened. Steady if not booming business.
    When I was a kid in Iowa these many years ago, beef offal — at least tongue, heart, liver, and kidneys — was available at any butcher shop.

  363. Pineapple, smoked salmon, rosemary asiago.
    Call it a flatbread if it makes your purist knee jerk, but damn is it tasty.

  364. Pineapple, smoked salmon, rosemary asiago.
    Call it a flatbread if it makes your purist knee jerk, but damn is it tasty.

  365. “chicken-bacon-ranch” pizza.
    Pretty good, IMO. Might be the bacon.
    Ranch dressing used to be called ‘buttermilk’ dressing, but the kids (now hitting 70 or so) didn’t take to the idea of ‘buttermilk’.

  366. “chicken-bacon-ranch” pizza.
    Pretty good, IMO. Might be the bacon.
    Ranch dressing used to be called ‘buttermilk’ dressing, but the kids (now hitting 70 or so) didn’t take to the idea of ‘buttermilk’.

  367. Ranch dressing used to be called ‘buttermilk’ dressing, but the kids (now hitting 70 or so) didn’t take to the idea of ‘buttermilk’.
    They apparently weren’t told that buttermilk is the best hangover cure ever.

  368. Ranch dressing used to be called ‘buttermilk’ dressing, but the kids (now hitting 70 or so) didn’t take to the idea of ‘buttermilk’.
    They apparently weren’t told that buttermilk is the best hangover cure ever.

  369. A couple of years ago my wife and I were in Umbria. We were staying near Montone, and went there for dinner one night. We looked for, and found, a small family restaurant that served authentic Umbrian cuisine.
    The charming young daughter of the owner came to the table and read us the specials in delightfully accented English. Lamb was on offer. I love lamb.
    I’ll have the lamb, says I.
    Oh, you like the lungs and hearts? She seemed somewhat… surprised.
    I’ll have the boar!, says I.
    The boar was great.

  370. A couple of years ago my wife and I were in Umbria. We were staying near Montone, and went there for dinner one night. We looked for, and found, a small family restaurant that served authentic Umbrian cuisine.
    The charming young daughter of the owner came to the table and read us the specials in delightfully accented English. Lamb was on offer. I love lamb.
    I’ll have the lamb, says I.
    Oh, you like the lungs and hearts? She seemed somewhat… surprised.
    I’ll have the boar!, says I.
    The boar was great.

  373. I reread my comment and realized that not everyone does what I do with my family (and close friends). We try to share everything in order to sample as much of the menu as is possible. The waiters don’t even give us a side eye – we are obviously enjoying our time so much.

  374. I reread my comment and realized that not everyone does what I do with my family (and close friends). We try to share everything in order to sample as much of the menu as is possible. The waiters don’t even give us a side eye – we are obviously enjoying our time so much.

  375. There’s nothing wrong with ranch dressing in itself. But a buttermilk product with a shelf life of months is not food.

  376. There’s nothing wrong with ranch dressing in itself. But a buttermilk product with a shelf life of months is not food.

  377. But a buttermilk product with a shelf life of months is not food.
    An awful lot of what’s on the grocery shelves, at least in the US, is not food. [Rant about poor health, poor health care, and the sacredness of profit deleted, I don’t have time.]
    Anyhow, I love the subtitle of Michael Pollan’s In Defense of Food:
    Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.
    “Eat food” blew right by me at first. Then I realized what he meant.

  378. But a buttermilk product with a shelf life of months is not food.
    An awful lot of what’s on the grocery shelves, at least in the US, is not food. [Rant about poor health, poor health care, and the sacredness of profit deleted, I don’t have time.]
    Anyhow, I love the subtitle of Michael Pollan’s In Defense of Food:
    Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.
    “Eat food” blew right by me at first. Then I realized what he meant.

  379. We try to share everything in order to sample as much of the menu as is possible.
    We don’t necessarily share, unless it is the current fad for “small plates” (i.e. tapas-style eating), but we always trade tastes, and look rather suspiciously on those who don’t!
    sapient: thanks for the tip about buttermilk as a hangover cure! Alas, the stuff we get in the UK is thicker than the contents of the big cartons I used to get in the US, and cannot therefore be used as a (delicious I always thought) drink. What resemblance it bore to the liquid left in the churn after butter-making was always unknown of course.

  380. We try to share everything in order to sample as much of the menu as is possible.
    We don’t necessarily share, unless it is the current fad for “small plates” (i.e. tapas-style eating), but we always trade tastes, and look rather suspiciously on those who don’t!
    sapient: thanks for the tip about buttermilk as a hangover cure! Alas, the stuff we get in the UK is thicker than the contents of the big cartons I used to get in the US, and cannot therefore be used as a (delicious I always thought) drink. What resemblance it bore to the liquid left in the churn after butter-making was always unknown of course.

  381. My memory of liver is that it tasted like someone collected all the dust in their house, moistened it so it would stick together, and cooked it. It’s been a really long time, so that could be a childish impression that would no longer hold.
    Liverwurst, on the other hand, is one of the most delicious substances on the planet, IMO. I almost never eat it anymore, but I still love it when I do.

  382. My memory of liver is that it tasted like someone collected all the dust in their house, moistened it so it would stick together, and cooked it. It’s been a really long time, so that could be a childish impression that would no longer hold.
    Liverwurst, on the other hand, is one of the most delicious substances on the planet, IMO. I almost never eat it anymore, but I still love it when I do.

  383. We don’t necessarily share, unless it is the current fad for “small plates” (i.e. tapas-style eating), but we always trade tastes, and look rather suspiciously on those who don’t!
    Actually, more like that for us too, but enthusiastic tasting! It makes me happy to think of those happy occasions.
    Dairy products in the UK are amazing. I would happily do without buttermilk for clotted cream. I have tried to make it myself, but it was not the same. I’ll take this as an inspiration to try again.

  384. We don’t necessarily share, unless it is the current fad for “small plates” (i.e. tapas-style eating), but we always trade tastes, and look rather suspiciously on those who don’t!
    Actually, more like that for us too, but enthusiastic tasting! It makes me happy to think of those happy occasions.
    Dairy products in the UK are amazing. I would happily do without buttermilk for clotted cream. I have tried to make it myself, but it was not the same. I’ll take this as an inspiration to try again.

  385. hsh: it sounds like you were given what is the bane of most offal cooking: overcooked liver. The only liver which is really really nice to eat qua liver (as opposed to pate etc) is calves liver or (more affordably) chicken liver, cooked in butter and still a deep blush pink in the middle. Lamb’s liver or pig’s liver can be nice, also pink, but they are really for confirmed offal lovers only. Lambs’ and calves’ kidneys should likewise be pink in the middle, also hearts, and the only fully cooked kidney which is palatable I think is in steak and kidney pie or pudding. Given your liking for liverwurst, I bet if someone gave you properly prepared liver you would like it!

  386. hsh: it sounds like you were given what is the bane of most offal cooking: overcooked liver. The only liver which is really really nice to eat qua liver (as opposed to pate etc) is calves liver or (more affordably) chicken liver, cooked in butter and still a deep blush pink in the middle. Lamb’s liver or pig’s liver can be nice, also pink, but they are really for confirmed offal lovers only. Lambs’ and calves’ kidneys should likewise be pink in the middle, also hearts, and the only fully cooked kidney which is palatable I think is in steak and kidney pie or pudding. Given your liking for liverwurst, I bet if someone gave you properly prepared liver you would like it!

  387. hsh gives me the courage to say: I hate liver. I’ll eat chicken gizards, but that’s about it for organ meats. It was one of the fascinating things in China, though, to see everything but the squeak laid out in the shops.
    Despite the fact that my rural Baptist relatives considered the peasant food of my immigrant Italian relatives to be exotic, both sides of my family were pretty conservative eaters, staying firmly within their comfort zones.
    Even though my mom learned to cook the Italian food of my dad’s heritage, he had a lot of strong dislikes that shaped what we ate: no lamb, for instance, and no basil, plus he didn’t like greens. His mother, on the other hand, always had a pot of “minest” on the stove: boiled greens in a broth with garlic. She lived to be 92, he died at 71. Is there a connection? Who knows.
    The only time anyone ever made liver for me that I could choke down was when a Japanese friend in grad school breaded some chicken livers and fried them lightly with garlic and soy sauce.
    And speaking (again) of garlic, let me quote (again, surely) the chapter on “Foreign Cookery” in the Alice’s Restaurant Cookbook:

    Don’t be intimidated by foreign cookery. Tomatoes and oregano make it Italian; wine and tarragon make it French. Sour cream makes it Russian; lemon and cinnamon make it Greek. Soy sauce makes it Chinese; garlic makes it good. Now you are an international cook.

    “Garlic makes it good”: words to live by.

  388. hsh gives me the courage to say: I hate liver. I’ll eat chicken gizards, but that’s about it for organ meats. It was one of the fascinating things in China, though, to see everything but the squeak laid out in the shops.
    Despite the fact that my rural Baptist relatives considered the peasant food of my immigrant Italian relatives to be exotic, both sides of my family were pretty conservative eaters, staying firmly within their comfort zones.
    Even though my mom learned to cook the Italian food of my dad’s heritage, he had a lot of strong dislikes that shaped what we ate: no lamb, for instance, and no basil, plus he didn’t like greens. His mother, on the other hand, always had a pot of “minest” on the stove: boiled greens in a broth with garlic. She lived to be 92, he died at 71. Is there a connection? Who knows.
    The only time anyone ever made liver for me that I could choke down was when a Japanese friend in grad school breaded some chicken livers and fried them lightly with garlic and soy sauce.
    And speaking (again) of garlic, let me quote (again, surely) the chapter on “Foreign Cookery” in the Alice’s Restaurant Cookbook:

    Don’t be intimidated by foreign cookery. Tomatoes and oregano make it Italian; wine and tarragon make it French. Sour cream makes it Russian; lemon and cinnamon make it Greek. Soy sauce makes it Chinese; garlic makes it good. Now you are an international cook.

    “Garlic makes it good”: words to live by.

  391. Two things:
    1. Liver is fine. No need to mention foie gras, just chopped chicken liver which, we might say, is not chopped liver.
    2. The widespread deanchovization of this dish is a plague. I can accept, very grudgingly, the de-egging, for safety reasons, but romaine lettuce by itself is not a Caesar salad. It’s romaine lettuce.

  392. Two things:
    1. Liver is fine. No need to mention foie gras, just chopped chicken liver which, we might say, is not chopped liver.
    2. The widespread deanchovization of this dish is a plague. I can accept, very grudgingly, the de-egging, for safety reasons, but romaine lettuce by itself is not a Caesar salad. It’s romaine lettuce.

  393. The widespread deanchovization of this dish is a plague. I can accept, very grudgingly, the de-egging, for safety reasons, but romaine lettuce by itself is not a Caesar salad. It’s romaine lettuce.
    Agreed, (and often they de-garlic it too!) except I am more hardline than you (surprise surprise) on the egg question.

  394. The widespread deanchovization of this dish is a plague. I can accept, very grudgingly, the de-egging, for safety reasons, but romaine lettuce by itself is not a Caesar salad. It’s romaine lettuce.
    Agreed, (and often they de-garlic it too!) except I am more hardline than you (surprise surprise) on the egg question.

  395. I consume a meal of chicken livers every few months or so. I dry sauté them so they form a caramalized crust, maybe coat them in a little flour beforehand. Then I make a sauce using a little consommé and fresh tarragon. If I have some on hand, I fry some sliced shallots as a garnish.
    I like to order fois gras in good restaurants.
    In other awful offal stories, in the far northern province of Luzon, I was offered a plate of unpurged goat intestine in some sort of sauce. Not bad, but I try not to think about it.
    Next up was stir-fried insects. Tolerable.
    Just got back from Miami and the Keys. Practically lived on ceviche, which I could live on. The lime juice “cooks” the fish. Yum.
    Also had a meal of grilled hog fish, a snapper variation. Very good.
    When I traveled in India years ago, I lived on a diet of bananas and bottled beer because all else caused me severe dysentery. But I love Indian food and for some reason intestinal complaints have never blunted my intestinal fortitude when offered a plate of mystery food.

  396. I consume a meal of chicken livers every few months or so. I dry sauté them so they form a caramalized crust, maybe coat them in a little flour beforehand. Then I make a sauce using a little consommé and fresh tarragon. If I have some on hand, I fry some sliced shallots as a garnish.
    I like to order fois gras in good restaurants.
    In other awful offal stories, in the far northern province of Luzon, I was offered a plate of unpurged goat intestine in some sort of sauce. Not bad, but I try not to think about it.
    Next up was stir-fried insects. Tolerable.
    Just got back from Miami and the Keys. Practically lived on ceviche, which I could live on. The lime juice “cooks” the fish. Yum.
    Also had a meal of grilled hog fish, a snapper variation. Very good.
    When I traveled in India years ago, I lived on a diet of bananas and bottled beer because all else caused me severe dysentery. But I love Indian food and for some reason intestinal complaints have never blunted my intestinal fortitude when offered a plate of mystery food.

  397. I make an anchovy paste and spread it on toast.
    I’ve been known to stand in front of an open fridge eating the whole anchovy fillet out of the tin.
    Yes, much of life has been deanchovied.

  398. I make an anchovy paste and spread it on toast.
    I’ve been known to stand in front of an open fridge eating the whole anchovy fillet out of the tin.
    Yes, much of life has been deanchovied.

  399. hsh: it sounds like you were given what is the bane of most offal cooking: overcooked liver.
    That is a distinct possibility. I can imagine my mom thought it had to be cooked thoroughly for health reasons, despite her habit of sampling raw meatball mixture, and allowing me to do so, before cooking the meatballs. (It was the closest thing to steak tartare I ate as a kid.)

  400. hsh: it sounds like you were given what is the bane of most offal cooking: overcooked liver.
    That is a distinct possibility. I can imagine my mom thought it had to be cooked thoroughly for health reasons, despite her habit of sampling raw meatball mixture, and allowing me to do so, before cooking the meatballs. (It was the closest thing to steak tartare I ate as a kid.)

  401. unpurged goat intestine
    Does that mean what it sounds to mean ? And it wasn’t bad ?? ???
    I once had andouillette when my wife ordered it in error, and I nobly agreed to swap plates with her.
    Haven’t tasted anything quite so disgusting since I was at school, but I finished the plate.

  402. unpurged goat intestine
    Does that mean what it sounds to mean ? And it wasn’t bad ?? ???
    I once had andouillette when my wife ordered it in error, and I nobly agreed to swap plates with her.
    Haven’t tasted anything quite so disgusting since I was at school, but I finished the plate.

  403. I can imagine thinking andouillette was just another name for or a slight variation of this kind of Andouille:

    In the US the sausage is most often associated with Louisiana Creole cuisine, where it is a coarse-grained smoked sausage made using pork, garlic, pepper, onions, wine, and seasonings. The pork used is mostly from a smoked Boston shoulder roast. Once the casing is stuffed, the sausage is smoked again (double smoked).

    I can also imagine thinking something was wrong with it when it showed up on the table and I got to smell it!

  404. I can imagine thinking andouillette was just another name for or a slight variation of this kind of Andouille:

    In the US the sausage is most often associated with Louisiana Creole cuisine, where it is a coarse-grained smoked sausage made using pork, garlic, pepper, onions, wine, and seasonings. The pork used is mostly from a smoked Boston shoulder roast. Once the casing is stuffed, the sausage is smoked again (double smoked).

    I can also imagine thinking something was wrong with it when it showed up on the table and I got to smell it!

  405. I make an anchovy paste and spread it on toast.
    I do that with sardines – the boneful skinful kind packed in oil – but on rye bread.

  406. I make an anchovy paste and spread it on toast.
    I do that with sardines – the boneful skinful kind packed in oil – but on rye bread.

  407. Sardine sandwiches, and sardines on toast, are delicious. Made with tinned sardines in olive oil. The fish are only little and the bones are good for you.
    Almost everything else, yes to garlic.
    Interesting point about liver. My mother used to feed us liver occasionally, and I didn’t like it at all – too dry. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if she overcooked it.

  408. Sardine sandwiches, and sardines on toast, are delicious. Made with tinned sardines in olive oil. The fish are only little and the bones are good for you.
    Almost everything else, yes to garlic.
    Interesting point about liver. My mother used to feed us liver occasionally, and I didn’t like it at all – too dry. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if she overcooked it.

  409. I can (and do) eat anchovies straight out of the tin too, the in-oil kind not the in-salt kind. There is almost nothing more delicious than anchovies on top of an open egg salad sandwich, unless it is smoked cod roe spread underneath the egg salad instead. Salty fish + eggs: a winning combination. In Hong Kong, canapes were charmingly called “small chow”, and that’s where I first tasted that taste sensation.

  410. I can (and do) eat anchovies straight out of the tin too, the in-oil kind not the in-salt kind. There is almost nothing more delicious than anchovies on top of an open egg salad sandwich, unless it is smoked cod roe spread underneath the egg salad instead. Salty fish + eggs: a winning combination. In Hong Kong, canapes were charmingly called “small chow”, and that’s where I first tasted that taste sensation.

  413. My mother used to feed us liver occasionally, and I didn’t like it at all – too dry. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if she overcooked it.
    That’s my guess. hsh’s comment about “dust” tipped me off to the likely (and extremely common) problem. When liver is cooked through, it develops a very unpleasant dryish, almost grainy texture, and a strong and unpleasant taste, whereas when it is pretty pink inside it is slightly juicy, and mild. However, the ox liver with which we were served in boarding school is probably more or less incapable of being made palatable: as well as the revolting (very pronounced) graininess and strong taste, it was also shot through with worrying “tubes” (veins?). If I hadn’t already tasted delicious liver, I would certainly have been put off for life, as most of my peers were. Apart from this, regarding my normally missing squeamishness reflex and further to the noble John Thullen’s Filipino experiences, one of the things that did activate it was the Filipino eggs cooked with embryos inside filling the shell: I could not even begin to make the attempt!

  414. My mother used to feed us liver occasionally, and I didn’t like it at all – too dry. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if she overcooked it.
    That’s my guess. hsh’s comment about “dust” tipped me off to the likely (and extremely common) problem. When liver is cooked through, it develops a very unpleasant dryish, almost grainy texture, and a strong and unpleasant taste, whereas when it is pretty pink inside it is slightly juicy, and mild. However, the ox liver with which we were served in boarding school is probably more or less incapable of being made palatable: as well as the revolting (very pronounced) graininess and strong taste, it was also shot through with worrying “tubes” (veins?). If I hadn’t already tasted delicious liver, I would certainly have been put off for life, as most of my peers were. Apart from this, regarding my normally missing squeamishness reflex and further to the noble John Thullen’s Filipino experiences, one of the things that did activate it was the Filipino eggs cooked with embryos inside filling the shell: I could not even begin to make the attempt!

  415. Per hsh: we too (my siblings and I) used to love to eat the raw meatball mixture. I would have it for a meal to this day if it weren’t for safety reasons. I did get very sick on it once as an adult, and that cured me.
    Chocolate chip cookie dough is also much better uncooked. Freeze a roll, slice off a treat whenever you want…. Only again, I don’t do it any more.

  416. Per hsh: we too (my siblings and I) used to love to eat the raw meatball mixture. I would have it for a meal to this day if it weren’t for safety reasons. I did get very sick on it once as an adult, and that cured me.
    Chocolate chip cookie dough is also much better uncooked. Freeze a roll, slice off a treat whenever you want…. Only again, I don’t do it any more.

  417. Ah yes, balut. Hawked at every bus stop and street corner in the Philippines.
    Tried it once. Crunchy for all the wrong reasons.
    Yes, the goat intestine was as described. But remember, several bottles of warm San Miquel beer, in which the alcohol content is, let us say, unregulated, accompany nearly every meal AND the frequent power outages in the barrios, if there is power, cause the room to go dark so many times you can’t get a good look at what is being proffered.
    If it’s not moving, I’m game …. once.
    I cannot swallow boiled okra, or any other okra for that matter.
    I wish it did move.
    Far away from me.

  418. Ah yes, balut. Hawked at every bus stop and street corner in the Philippines.
    Tried it once. Crunchy for all the wrong reasons.
    Yes, the goat intestine was as described. But remember, several bottles of warm San Miquel beer, in which the alcohol content is, let us say, unregulated, accompany nearly every meal AND the frequent power outages in the barrios, if there is power, cause the room to go dark so many times you can’t get a good look at what is being proffered.
    If it’s not moving, I’m game …. once.
    I cannot swallow boiled okra, or any other okra for that matter.
    I wish it did move.
    Far away from me.

  419. Is it the sliminess of okra, John? I am told there are ways to mitigate it, by slicing fine and frying hot for example. You may not consider it worthwhile however.
    San Miguel: yes. Tsingtao: ditto.

  420. Is it the sliminess of okra, John? I am told there are ways to mitigate it, by slicing fine and frying hot for example. You may not consider it worthwhile however.
    San Miguel: yes. Tsingtao: ditto.

  421. okra’s good in a gumbo.
    sharing: my wife likes to taste everything, I like to eat what I ordered. I’ll have a taste of her dinner if I haven’t started eating mine yet, otherwise I don’t want to be distracted from whatever it is I’m having.
    Tapas or dim sum or other kinds of things where variety is the point, however, is fine with me. I will happily partake of whatever’s on the table.
    People are weird. I am a person. The remainder of the syllogism is left as an exercise for the reader.

  422. okra’s good in a gumbo.
    sharing: my wife likes to taste everything, I like to eat what I ordered. I’ll have a taste of her dinner if I haven’t started eating mine yet, otherwise I don’t want to be distracted from whatever it is I’m having.
    Tapas or dim sum or other kinds of things where variety is the point, however, is fine with me. I will happily partake of whatever’s on the table.
    People are weird. I am a person. The remainder of the syllogism is left as an exercise for the reader.

  423. Only again, I don’t do it any more.
    Which pretty much describes my current diet. I eat almost nothing that I routinely ate in the past.

  424. Only again, I don’t do it any more.
    Which pretty much describes my current diet. I eat almost nothing that I routinely ate in the past.

  425. Here’s my recipe for okra.
    Assemble the ingredients: okra, corn meal, flour, bacon fat, red pepper flakes.
    Throw the okra away. Use the remaining ingredients to prepare something else.
    Bon appetite.
    If I am asked in a southern cuisine restaurant if I would like okra with that, I ask if the okra has OKRA in it, and if yes, I mitigate by declining the offer.

  426. Here’s my recipe for okra.
    Assemble the ingredients: okra, corn meal, flour, bacon fat, red pepper flakes.
    Throw the okra away. Use the remaining ingredients to prepare something else.
    Bon appetite.
    If I am asked in a southern cuisine restaurant if I would like okra with that, I ask if the okra has OKRA in it, and if yes, I mitigate by declining the offer.

  427. Much more challenging than dodging things like okra or liver: avoiding chilli flakes and other hot peppers. My taste buds are generally alive and well, and I prefer to keep them that way. But any number of foods are subject to having hot peppers by default.
    Besides, pepper** really has only one purpose: to conceal the fact that the meat has started to rot. These days, what with refrigeration etc., there’s really no need any more to eat rotten meat.
    ** Excepting bell peppers, of course.

  428. Much more challenging than dodging things like okra or liver: avoiding chilli flakes and other hot peppers. My taste buds are generally alive and well, and I prefer to keep them that way. But any number of foods are subject to having hot peppers by default.
    Besides, pepper** really has only one purpose: to conceal the fact that the meat has started to rot. These days, what with refrigeration etc., there’s really no need any more to eat rotten meat.
    ** Excepting bell peppers, of course.

  429. I’m with wj – I can’t even touch chillis, as I’m somewhat allergic to them (I don’t mind hot, as the most pungent wasabi is fine for me).
    And I’m in the percentage of the population for which cilantro tastes like soap, so Mexican food is simply not a thing for me, sadly.
    My ideal diet would probably be Japanese.

  430. I’m with wj – I can’t even touch chillis, as I’m somewhat allergic to them (I don’t mind hot, as the most pungent wasabi is fine for me).
    And I’m in the percentage of the population for which cilantro tastes like soap, so Mexican food is simply not a thing for me, sadly.
    My ideal diet would probably be Japanese.

  433. My ideal diet would probably be Vietnamese, Indian, Mexican, Italian, Chinese, Middle Eastern, Japanese, Greek, Spanish, Malaysian, Jewish, or something I haven’t tried yet. I’m very picky!

  434. My ideal diet would probably be Vietnamese, Indian, Mexican, Italian, Chinese, Middle Eastern, Japanese, Greek, Spanish, Malaysian, Jewish, or something I haven’t tried yet. I’m very picky!

  435. Scrambled eggs with lox. Yum.
    Funnily enough, that’s one I’m not crazy about. I don’t mind it, but would never choose it, although I love both components. Perhaps this is because our smoked salmon is much less salty than most of your lox (I think), especially my favourite “London Cure”, recently described by Nigella Lawson as “tender and mild, like silky wafer thin sashimi”, even more delicate than your Nova. However, each to his or her own. I’m in favour of hsh’s eclectic approach immediately above, although I feel sorry for the chili and coriander/cilantro haters among us – these are two of my favourite things!

  436. Scrambled eggs with lox. Yum.
    Funnily enough, that’s one I’m not crazy about. I don’t mind it, but would never choose it, although I love both components. Perhaps this is because our smoked salmon is much less salty than most of your lox (I think), especially my favourite “London Cure”, recently described by Nigella Lawson as “tender and mild, like silky wafer thin sashimi”, even more delicate than your Nova. However, each to his or her own. I’m in favour of hsh’s eclectic approach immediately above, although I feel sorry for the chili and coriander/cilantro haters among us – these are two of my favourite things!

  437. I pretty much just beef, chicken and pork no organs, no lamb, no veal, with some form of potato and maybe spinach(in butter and garlic).
    I am flexible about in which country the meat is grilled(with garlic).
    Chicken , bacon, ranch anything.
    Hidden Valley ranch, no substitute.

  438. I pretty much just beef, chicken and pork no organs, no lamb, no veal, with some form of potato and maybe spinach(in butter and garlic).
    I am flexible about in which country the meat is grilled(with garlic).
    Chicken , bacon, ranch anything.
    Hidden Valley ranch, no substitute.

  439. Marty, please clarify your second and third paragraphs! I am trying to understand your preferences….

  440. Marty, please clarify your second and third paragraphs! I am trying to understand your preferences….

  441. A limiting factor to my consumption of chili peppers is my concern that I might overload my liver and kidneys. That would be offal…
    At one time I had my tolerance built up enough that I put about 35 grams of dried chili peppers in a smoothie and suffered no discomfort.
    As a kid, most of the liver I ate might now be called chicken fried.
    For a time we had a pressure fryer. If you got all the variables right, it would produce some very good results. Maybe not good for you though.

  442. A limiting factor to my consumption of chili peppers is my concern that I might overload my liver and kidneys. That would be offal…
    At one time I had my tolerance built up enough that I put about 35 grams of dried chili peppers in a smoothie and suffered no discomfort.
    As a kid, most of the liver I ate might now be called chicken fried.
    For a time we had a pressure fryer. If you got all the variables right, it would produce some very good results. Maybe not good for you though.

  443. GftNC, I like the cooked meat from pretty much any ethnic cuisine. Meat defined as beef, chicken or pork and not body parts. The limit of seasonings is basically not too hot and not curry.
    :Chicken, Bacon, Ranch” is a thing. Pizza, subs, fast food, salad, as long as it contains those key ingredients it is awesome. Although, as always, the bacon should be crisp.

  444. GftNC, I like the cooked meat from pretty much any ethnic cuisine. Meat defined as beef, chicken or pork and not body parts. The limit of seasonings is basically not too hot and not curry.
    :Chicken, Bacon, Ranch” is a thing. Pizza, subs, fast food, salad, as long as it contains those key ingredients it is awesome. Although, as always, the bacon should be crisp.

  447. My ideal diet would probably be Vietnamese, Indian, Mexican, Italian, Chinese, Middle Eastern, Japanese, Greek, Spanish, Malaysian, Jewish, or something I haven’t tried yet.
    I’d drop Mexican*, but definitely add Afghan. Some of the afghan restaurants here are just awesome.
    * In addition to lack of tolerance for hot/spicy, I’m not fond of corn and I detest avocado. Doesn’t leave a whole lot of Mexican….

  448. My ideal diet would probably be Vietnamese, Indian, Mexican, Italian, Chinese, Middle Eastern, Japanese, Greek, Spanish, Malaysian, Jewish, or something I haven’t tried yet.
    I’d drop Mexican*, but definitely add Afghan. Some of the afghan restaurants here are just awesome.
    * In addition to lack of tolerance for hot/spicy, I’m not fond of corn and I detest avocado. Doesn’t leave a whole lot of Mexican….

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