A start of the week thread with an invitation to decloak

by

by liberal japonicus

Earlier, I suggested we have an open thread with an invitation to delurk. So here it is. Of course, people who aren’t lurking are welcome as well.

808 thoughts on “A start of the week thread with an invitation to decloak”

  1. Well, I apparently just missed being able to respond to Marty’s post in the thread where it originated, so I’ll just add my thanks to everyone else’s. Good luck to all of us in living up to those words!

  2. Well, I apparently just missed being able to respond to Marty’s post in the thread where it originated, so I’ll just add my thanks to everyone else’s. Good luck to all of us in living up to those words!

  3. Welcome to lurkers who choose to post.
    I’m obviously not one of you, but will comment here to open the thread.
    It’s Memorial Day, and Marty commented on the previous thread in such a way that it brought people to come together. For people in the US and in NATO countries, we have since WWII enjoyed the benefits of liberal democracy. Peace and prosperity have been a part of this legacy. Yes, there have been some problems – we can argue about the wisdom of various foreign intervention, growing wealth inequality, wage stagnation, etc. But, at the same time, liberal democracy has allowed broader civil rights, technological innovation for civilian comfort and prosperity, and unprecedented (for US citizens, especially) global travel and cultural exchange.
    I feel that the Trump administration is rejecting these values. What are we actually getting in exchange?

  4. Welcome to lurkers who choose to post.
    I’m obviously not one of you, but will comment here to open the thread.
    It’s Memorial Day, and Marty commented on the previous thread in such a way that it brought people to come together. For people in the US and in NATO countries, we have since WWII enjoyed the benefits of liberal democracy. Peace and prosperity have been a part of this legacy. Yes, there have been some problems – we can argue about the wisdom of various foreign intervention, growing wealth inequality, wage stagnation, etc. But, at the same time, liberal democracy has allowed broader civil rights, technological innovation for civilian comfort and prosperity, and unprecedented (for US citizens, especially) global travel and cultural exchange.
    I feel that the Trump administration is rejecting these values. What are we actually getting in exchange?

  5. What are we actually getting in exchange?
    A sense of our own superiority. Because “those people” (in this case Europeans) believe in them, not doing so makes us different. And therefore better, obviously.
    Note: care is required to avoid noticing what awful places around the world also reject those values. But we can ignore that, and just praise their “strong leaders”, aka despots.

  6. What are we actually getting in exchange?
    A sense of our own superiority. Because “those people” (in this case Europeans) believe in them, not doing so makes us different. And therefore better, obviously.
    Note: care is required to avoid noticing what awful places around the world also reject those values. But we can ignore that, and just praise their “strong leaders”, aka despots.

  7. Note: care is required to avoid noticing what awful places around the world also reject those values. But we can ignore that, and just praise their “strong leaders”, aka despots.
    Yep.
    I just wish that the Martys and McKinneys of the world would join to reject the Putin puppet, and go back to the bipartisan embrace of things like NATO. Crazytalk?

  8. Note: care is required to avoid noticing what awful places around the world also reject those values. But we can ignore that, and just praise their “strong leaders”, aka despots.
    Yep.
    I just wish that the Martys and McKinneys of the world would join to reject the Putin puppet, and go back to the bipartisan embrace of things like NATO. Crazytalk?

  9. Actually, from what they’ve said here, they do reject Trump for all practical purposes. Which isn’t unexpected, given that they are basically sane (whether you agree with their political philosophy or not), whereas his grip on reality is, to be kind, underwhelming.

  10. Actually, from what they’ve said here, they do reject Trump for all practical purposes. Which isn’t unexpected, given that they are basically sane (whether you agree with their political philosophy or not), whereas his grip on reality is, to be kind, underwhelming.

  11. I am a 100% supporter of NATO, I am also a 100% supporter of everyone paying their share.
    Bush pushed for it, Obama pushed for it, from a policy perspective asking for it is pretty standard.
    Too bad Romney didn’t win, he seemed to recognize the looming Russian threat before anyone else.

  12. I am a 100% supporter of NATO, I am also a 100% supporter of everyone paying their share.
    Bush pushed for it, Obama pushed for it, from a policy perspective asking for it is pretty standard.
    Too bad Romney didn’t win, he seemed to recognize the looming Russian threat before anyone else.

  13. Too bad Romney didn’t win, he seemed to recognize the looming Russian threat before anyone else.
    Well, going back in time isn’t an option, so how do you propose dealing with the Russian threat now?

  14. Too bad Romney didn’t win, he seemed to recognize the looming Russian threat before anyone else.
    Well, going back in time isn’t an option, so how do you propose dealing with the Russian threat now?

  15. Sapient, did I miss the announcement identifying you as the identifier and arbiter of acceptable viewpoints? The person authorized to hold others and their views to account? Hint: if you’re going to call me to account, try to pay more attention to what I say. Or, just leave my name out of your Pepsi challenges.
    This is a de-lurking thread. I’d like to hear from these folks.

  16. Sapient, did I miss the announcement identifying you as the identifier and arbiter of acceptable viewpoints? The person authorized to hold others and their views to account? Hint: if you’re going to call me to account, try to pay more attention to what I say. Or, just leave my name out of your Pepsi challenges.
    This is a de-lurking thread. I’d like to hear from these folks.

  25. I suppose I can’t call myself a lurker, but I read much more than I post. Hmm, this brings to mind an aphorism (my mother was very fond of such), “you have two ears and one mouth.” [You can fill in the rest.]
    “Hi” to all my ObWi friends. I hope you think of me as a friend.

  26. I suppose I can’t call myself a lurker, but I read much more than I post. Hmm, this brings to mind an aphorism (my mother was very fond of such), “you have two ears and one mouth.” [You can fill in the rest.]
    “Hi” to all my ObWi friends. I hope you think of me as a friend.

  27. Hello, friend. You are grandfathered.
    I’d like to hear from lurker Moe Lane.
    Come and get it, Moe.

  28. Hello, friend. You are grandfathered.
    I’d like to hear from lurker Moe Lane.
    Come and get it, Moe.

  29. *Delurk*. Been following for quite some time. Erratic schedule ensures I’m always too late to be on topic, but enjoy the catching up.

  30. *Delurk*. Been following for quite some time. Erratic schedule ensures I’m always too late to be on topic, but enjoy the catching up.

  31. long-time-lurker…I come here for a (mostly) sane counter to conversations around me…my self-sustaining project post-election was to recast a personalized paraphrase of the Tao Te Ching. For Memorial Day I offer the following:
    #31
    Guns, swords, armor are all items to be feared;
    therefore those who follow the Way
    avoid them.
    The wise one prefers repose;
    the warrior prefers aggression.
    the wise one uses weapons
    only at greatest need;
    rather, peace and quiet are preferred.
    There is no reason to celebrate victory:
    to gain it, many have died
    and celebrating killing rots the soul.
    Therefore, if war is unavoidable,
    it should be conducted as a funeral
    and victory should be a time for mourning.

  32. long-time-lurker…I come here for a (mostly) sane counter to conversations around me…my self-sustaining project post-election was to recast a personalized paraphrase of the Tao Te Ching. For Memorial Day I offer the following:
    #31
    Guns, swords, armor are all items to be feared;
    therefore those who follow the Way
    avoid them.
    The wise one prefers repose;
    the warrior prefers aggression.
    the wise one uses weapons
    only at greatest need;
    rather, peace and quiet are preferred.
    There is no reason to celebrate victory:
    to gain it, many have died
    and celebrating killing rots the soul.
    Therefore, if war is unavoidable,
    it should be conducted as a funeral
    and victory should be a time for mourning.

  33. ral, I certainly think of you in a very friendly light, as one who has brought me much pleasure in recent months via Goons reminders etc.
    William Nickles, it is many years since I read the Tao Te Ching, and remembered nothing, but this is very beautiful, profound and true. Thank you.

  34. ral, I certainly think of you in a very friendly light, as one who has brought me much pleasure in recent months via Goons reminders etc.
    William Nickles, it is many years since I read the Tao Te Ching, and remembered nothing, but this is very beautiful, profound and true. Thank you.

  35. wj,
    There are rather large points of difference between Trump and Bush the Younger, let alone Obama, with regard to NATO. We Finns are not a member (instead, we have a rather tight partnership), but the feeling around here on the Continent has been a shock.
    Trump’s behaviour in the NATO summit on Thursday was so rude and undiplomatic that it could not be explaimed away. When he was revealing a monument to the Article V response of the NATO after 911, he refrained from even mentioning the Article, and talked instead immigration politics, which is not in the purview of the organization. This was done immediately after Merkel had given a speech emphasizing tolerance and non-racism.
    Today, Merkel gave a speech where she remarked that certain allies are no longer unquestionably trustworthy. Europe must take care of herself. This is a clear deviation from the traditional line of Merkel’s party, the CDU, which has focussed on transatlantic defence cooperation instead of European one. With this change, it looks quitepossible that France and Germany will find each other in cooperation for a common EU defence policy, which is quite welcome development for my country’s government. We have been calling for common European defence for years.

  36. wj,
    There are rather large points of difference between Trump and Bush the Younger, let alone Obama, with regard to NATO. We Finns are not a member (instead, we have a rather tight partnership), but the feeling around here on the Continent has been a shock.
    Trump’s behaviour in the NATO summit on Thursday was so rude and undiplomatic that it could not be explaimed away. When he was revealing a monument to the Article V response of the NATO after 911, he refrained from even mentioning the Article, and talked instead immigration politics, which is not in the purview of the organization. This was done immediately after Merkel had given a speech emphasizing tolerance and non-racism.
    Today, Merkel gave a speech where she remarked that certain allies are no longer unquestionably trustworthy. Europe must take care of herself. This is a clear deviation from the traditional line of Merkel’s party, the CDU, which has focussed on transatlantic defence cooperation instead of European one. With this change, it looks quitepossible that France and Germany will find each other in cooperation for a common EU defence policy, which is quite welcome development for my country’s government. We have been calling for common European defence for years.

  37. Memorial day thoughts:
    “It is said that the future is always born in pain. The history of war is the
    history of pain. If we are wise, what is born of that pain matures into the
    promise of a better world, because we learn that we can no longer afford the mistakes of the past.” — G’Kar (Babylon 5)

  38. Memorial day thoughts:
    “It is said that the future is always born in pain. The history of war is the
    history of pain. If we are wise, what is born of that pain matures into the
    promise of a better world, because we learn that we can no longer afford the mistakes of the past.” — G’Kar (Babylon 5)

  39. Lurker, I’d say it is a large difference between Trump and every single US President since WW II.
    But then, there are pretty large differences between President Trump and any and all of his predecessors on a vast array of issues, not just on policy towards Europe.** Whether one thinks this is a good thing or a bad thing is a matter of opinion (or philosophy). But it’s hard to argue that it isn’t real.
    ** Also on interest in understanding the rest of the world. Bush II had a reputation (deserved IMHO) for intellectual laziness. But he was incredibly hard working when it comes to digging in to learn about the issues confronting the nation . . . at least compared to Trump.

  40. Lurker, I’d say it is a large difference between Trump and every single US President since WW II.
    But then, there are pretty large differences between President Trump and any and all of his predecessors on a vast array of issues, not just on policy towards Europe.** Whether one thinks this is a good thing or a bad thing is a matter of opinion (or philosophy). But it’s hard to argue that it isn’t real.
    ** Also on interest in understanding the rest of the world. Bush II had a reputation (deserved IMHO) for intellectual laziness. But he was incredibly hard working when it comes to digging in to learn about the issues confronting the nation . . . at least compared to Trump.

  43. Hi gang. I’m a regular reader; I probably chip in a comment twice a year or so. I can never remember which online Nym I use here, so while I don’t mean to Sock Puppet it’s possible I’ve also posted as “bob_is_boring”.
    I’ve been reading for…years. At least 10+. Feel like I know most of the regulars.
    Thanks for the explicit invitation to de-lurk.

  44. Hi gang. I’m a regular reader; I probably chip in a comment twice a year or so. I can never remember which online Nym I use here, so while I don’t mean to Sock Puppet it’s possible I’ve also posted as “bob_is_boring”.
    I’ve been reading for…years. At least 10+. Feel like I know most of the regulars.
    Thanks for the explicit invitation to de-lurk.

  47. Oddly, the nationalism expressed in Merkels comments are not really different from Trumps. In fact, the concept of Europe spending the kind of money the US spends on the common defense is laughable. But why would we object? Is that meant to be a threat? I’m insulted that she would openly question her loyalty to her longest standing allies, who have done nothing except ask Europe to pay its fair share. That fair share is significantly less than if she decides they should provide for their own defense.
    Good for them. Then our next President can cut the us defense of the world budget substantially snd we might have enpugh to pay for healthcare.

  48. Oddly, the nationalism expressed in Merkels comments are not really different from Trumps. In fact, the concept of Europe spending the kind of money the US spends on the common defense is laughable. But why would we object? Is that meant to be a threat? I’m insulted that she would openly question her loyalty to her longest standing allies, who have done nothing except ask Europe to pay its fair share. That fair share is significantly less than if she decides they should provide for their own defense.
    Good for them. Then our next President can cut the us defense of the world budget substantially snd we might have enpugh to pay for healthcare.

  51. I’m insulted that she would openly question her loyalty to her longest standing allies,
    orly?
    because Trump insults our allies constantly, and you haven’t made any noise about that,

  52. I’m insulted that she would openly question her loyalty to her longest standing allies,
    orly?
    because Trump insults our allies constantly, and you haven’t made any noise about that,

  55. I’m insulted that she would openly question her loyalty to her longest standing allies, who have done nothing except ask Europe to pay its fair share.
    I think you should look again, Marty. It is Trump’s loyalty to his long-standing allies which is truly in question, and which started this, as well as the UK voting to leave the EU, if not NATO. As I understand it, he would not even affirm his understanding of and agreement to Article 5 (one for all and all for one), despite the fact that the only time it has been invoked was by the rest of NATO in solidarity with the US in the wake of 9/11. And surely you haven’t bought Trump’s idiotic repetition of the fact that Europe “owes money to the US” because they haven’t all, or even most, yet reached 2%? Are you under the impression that the US spends what it does on Defence in order to help the other countries in NATO? Do you think the Arms industry and what Ike called the Military-Industrial Complex will be satisfied and just sit by if any US president, let alone a Republican (yeah right) suggests cutting the defense budget?

  56. I’m insulted that she would openly question her loyalty to her longest standing allies, who have done nothing except ask Europe to pay its fair share.
    I think you should look again, Marty. It is Trump’s loyalty to his long-standing allies which is truly in question, and which started this, as well as the UK voting to leave the EU, if not NATO. As I understand it, he would not even affirm his understanding of and agreement to Article 5 (one for all and all for one), despite the fact that the only time it has been invoked was by the rest of NATO in solidarity with the US in the wake of 9/11. And surely you haven’t bought Trump’s idiotic repetition of the fact that Europe “owes money to the US” because they haven’t all, or even most, yet reached 2%? Are you under the impression that the US spends what it does on Defence in order to help the other countries in NATO? Do you think the Arms industry and what Ike called the Military-Industrial Complex will be satisfied and just sit by if any US president, let alone a Republican (yeah right) suggests cutting the defense budget?

  57. Marty,
    Germany is currently openly denouncing the fact that the US has, during last week, left the Western political consensus. Your political stances on climate change, religious freedom and arming crisis zones are in clear conflict with the previous commitments of your country. The German Foreign Minister and Vice Chancellor Gabriel stated today that this stance “is endangering the peace in Europe”, and in “direct conflict with the interests of European Union”.
    This stance is not “nationalism”. Indeed, Gabriel is a social democrat and belongs to one of the most dovish parties imaginable. He is standing up for the values we thought we shared with you. However, such talk is something no one has heard a German statesman to utter since WWII. Please remember that Germany is a staunch ally of yours. They have always been quite happy to allow you the precedence in all international policy issues, and essentially, the Germans have made sure that European and American interests are well aligned in diplomacy.
    The fact that European countries are not financing their militaries as heavily as you might wish is essentially due to the fact that we acquiesce in American leadership. If Europe starts to build up military capabilities of its own, those capabilities are no longer essentially under US control. The US pre-eminence is possible only because until now, the next largest economies in the world, EU and Japan are so staunch allies that you do not need contingency plans for them. F you need to start wondering whose side Japan and EU are on if there is a war on South China Sea, 11 carrier groups are nearly not enough.
    Trump is throwing away the goodwill and alliances that the US has been building for 70 years. Such remarkable stupidity can only have disastrous consequences.

  58. Marty,
    Germany is currently openly denouncing the fact that the US has, during last week, left the Western political consensus. Your political stances on climate change, religious freedom and arming crisis zones are in clear conflict with the previous commitments of your country. The German Foreign Minister and Vice Chancellor Gabriel stated today that this stance “is endangering the peace in Europe”, and in “direct conflict with the interests of European Union”.
    This stance is not “nationalism”. Indeed, Gabriel is a social democrat and belongs to one of the most dovish parties imaginable. He is standing up for the values we thought we shared with you. However, such talk is something no one has heard a German statesman to utter since WWII. Please remember that Germany is a staunch ally of yours. They have always been quite happy to allow you the precedence in all international policy issues, and essentially, the Germans have made sure that European and American interests are well aligned in diplomacy.
    The fact that European countries are not financing their militaries as heavily as you might wish is essentially due to the fact that we acquiesce in American leadership. If Europe starts to build up military capabilities of its own, those capabilities are no longer essentially under US control. The US pre-eminence is possible only because until now, the next largest economies in the world, EU and Japan are so staunch allies that you do not need contingency plans for them. F you need to start wondering whose side Japan and EU are on if there is a war on South China Sea, 11 carrier groups are nearly not enough.
    Trump is throwing away the goodwill and alliances that the US has been building for 70 years. Such remarkable stupidity can only have disastrous consequences.

  59. Trump is throwing away the goodwill and alliances that the US has been building for 70 years. Such remarkable stupidity can only have disastrous consequences.
    Thank you for saying it so clearly. I don’t understand Republican reluctance to remove this President in the face of this. It isn’t just a matter of a “tax cut” anymore.

  60. Trump is throwing away the goodwill and alliances that the US has been building for 70 years. Such remarkable stupidity can only have disastrous consequences.
    Thank you for saying it so clearly. I don’t understand Republican reluctance to remove this President in the face of this. It isn’t just a matter of a “tax cut” anymore.

  61. Trump is not throwing anything away. Merkel and Macron are using his stance, to ensure that the mutual defense is indeed mutual, to stoke nationalistic resentment for political gain.
    And, he got elected on that very promise. So “removing him” is in essence supporting a coup. I dont.

  62. Trump is not throwing anything away. Merkel and Macron are using his stance, to ensure that the mutual defense is indeed mutual, to stoke nationalistic resentment for political gain.
    And, he got elected on that very promise. So “removing him” is in essence supporting a coup. I dont.

  63. Since (as someone noted in another thread, it may even have been you) many recent US presidents have pushed the other NATO members about the 2%, what do you think has suddenly made Merkel and Macron want to “use his stance ….to stoke nationalistic resentment for political gain” (again, quite a funny accusation to make when Donald Trump is involved – serious projection there I would say).

  64. Since (as someone noted in another thread, it may even have been you) many recent US presidents have pushed the other NATO members about the 2%, what do you think has suddenly made Merkel and Macron want to “use his stance ….to stoke nationalistic resentment for political gain” (again, quite a funny accusation to make when Donald Trump is involved – serious projection there I would say).

  65. Marty,
    if you had even a slightest inkling of the European political map, you would understand how weird your point “stroking nationalistic resentment” sounds when you are talking about Angela Merkel. She has, throughout her chancellorship, been a voice for international cooperation, transatlanticism, and under her leadership, German foreign policy has maintained its semi-pacifist course. Similarly, Macron ran on an internationalist, anti-racist platform.
    So, claiming that Merkel would be driving nationalistic politics sounds to me simply insane. Compared to Merkel, Obama was ultra-right-wing.
    Indeed, Marty, your reflex to claim that any foreign policy by a foreign country is “nationalistic” is really Russian-style. Calling opponents fascists or nationalists is their standard fare. It is surprising, yes, extremely surprising, to see an American right-winger adopt such usage so readily, as it is not typical American discourse. You seem to have a very good, and varied political education.

  66. Marty,
    if you had even a slightest inkling of the European political map, you would understand how weird your point “stroking nationalistic resentment” sounds when you are talking about Angela Merkel. She has, throughout her chancellorship, been a voice for international cooperation, transatlanticism, and under her leadership, German foreign policy has maintained its semi-pacifist course. Similarly, Macron ran on an internationalist, anti-racist platform.
    So, claiming that Merkel would be driving nationalistic politics sounds to me simply insane. Compared to Merkel, Obama was ultra-right-wing.
    Indeed, Marty, your reflex to claim that any foreign policy by a foreign country is “nationalistic” is really Russian-style. Calling opponents fascists or nationalists is their standard fare. It is surprising, yes, extremely surprising, to see an American right-winger adopt such usage so readily, as it is not typical American discourse. You seem to have a very good, and varied political education.

  67. And, he got elected* on that very promise
    * on a technicality. By actual votes of actual Americans, he lost handily.

  68. And, he got elected* on that very promise
    * on a technicality. By actual votes of actual Americans, he lost handily.

  69. When following the German debate, by reading Der Spiegel, I get an impression that something really solid has been broken.
    You know, the Germans focus really heavily, in their internal political debate and in their school education, on the Nazism and its opposition. Dietrich Bonhoeffer and the Bekennende Kirche are real role models for them. They are quite practical until to a point, but their education really presses on the point that there is a limit, a badly-defined limit but limit still, that you shan’t cross. At that limit, you stop and won’t go along, because it is your humanity that is at stake. And looking at the German political debate, it seems that there is a forming domestic consensus is that the US has crossed that limit.
    I really don’t know what the German society does in this kind of situation. I am pretty sure that they don’t know either. It will be quite fascinating to see.

  70. When following the German debate, by reading Der Spiegel, I get an impression that something really solid has been broken.
    You know, the Germans focus really heavily, in their internal political debate and in their school education, on the Nazism and its opposition. Dietrich Bonhoeffer and the Bekennende Kirche are real role models for them. They are quite practical until to a point, but their education really presses on the point that there is a limit, a badly-defined limit but limit still, that you shan’t cross. At that limit, you stop and won’t go along, because it is your humanity that is at stake. And looking at the German political debate, it seems that there is a forming domestic consensus is that the US has crossed that limit.
    I really don’t know what the German society does in this kind of situation. I am pretty sure that they don’t know either. It will be quite fascinating to see.

  71. here goes the left and their violent rhetoric again.

    A Texas Republican reportedly threatened to “put a bullet in one of his colleague’s heads” during a scuffle on the House floor over the state’s new anti-‘sanctuary cities’ law on Monday, Democrats said.

    those filthy liberals keep wrecking our discourse.
    /bullying

  72. here goes the left and their violent rhetoric again.

    A Texas Republican reportedly threatened to “put a bullet in one of his colleague’s heads” during a scuffle on the House floor over the state’s new anti-‘sanctuary cities’ law on Monday, Democrats said.

    those filthy liberals keep wrecking our discourse.
    /bullying

  73. Tangential to this:
    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/05/29/james-mattis-a-warrior-in-washington
    Fascinating article. Key takeaway regarding priorities from General Mattis, the widely read warrior monk. He’s a professional killer but would prefer the softer arts of diplomacy, which trump and company are gutting:
    ‘In congressional testimony from 2013, Mattis said as much, when asked about the role of diplomacy in foreign affairs. “If you don’t fund the State Department fully, then I need to buy more ammunition ultimately,” he said. “The more that we put into the State Department’s diplomacy, hopefully the less we have to put into a military budget.” Trump’s proposed budget would cut State Department funding by more than a quarter. At present, forty-six U.S. Embassies remain without an Ambassador.’
    Now we face a major rift with our NATO allies over trump’s lying dumbaassity regarding the what and when of NATO defense spending, among other issues, not to mention his loutish Russian-like behavior this past week as he smeared his feces across the globe.
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-fact-check-nato-claims
    The trump/putin axis tried to steal the french election (who was stoking nationalistic resentment for political gain in that election for fuck sakes?) in the same manner as ours was stolen (and shall be avenged).
    The trump/putin axis will attempt the same in the German elections.
    Countries like Latvia and Lithuania are terrified of their eastern flank.
    NATO and the EU should invite Putin’s Russia to become members as counterweight. Scotland should nationalize trump’s Aberdeenshire golf course and have the russians in for a looksee as to its viability as a site for land-based nuclear missiles pointed west.
    I’ll spare the details, but I have an unbalanced sociopath in my family and he behaves in the small picture just as trump behaves in the big one. They both like to fuck with EVERYONE, even those who might be loyal to them.
    In both cases, it is time to fuck back.

  74. Tangential to this:
    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/05/29/james-mattis-a-warrior-in-washington
    Fascinating article. Key takeaway regarding priorities from General Mattis, the widely read warrior monk. He’s a professional killer but would prefer the softer arts of diplomacy, which trump and company are gutting:
    ‘In congressional testimony from 2013, Mattis said as much, when asked about the role of diplomacy in foreign affairs. “If you don’t fund the State Department fully, then I need to buy more ammunition ultimately,” he said. “The more that we put into the State Department’s diplomacy, hopefully the less we have to put into a military budget.” Trump’s proposed budget would cut State Department funding by more than a quarter. At present, forty-six U.S. Embassies remain without an Ambassador.’
    Now we face a major rift with our NATO allies over trump’s lying dumbaassity regarding the what and when of NATO defense spending, among other issues, not to mention his loutish Russian-like behavior this past week as he smeared his feces across the globe.
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-fact-check-nato-claims
    The trump/putin axis tried to steal the french election (who was stoking nationalistic resentment for political gain in that election for fuck sakes?) in the same manner as ours was stolen (and shall be avenged).
    The trump/putin axis will attempt the same in the German elections.
    Countries like Latvia and Lithuania are terrified of their eastern flank.
    NATO and the EU should invite Putin’s Russia to become members as counterweight. Scotland should nationalize trump’s Aberdeenshire golf course and have the russians in for a looksee as to its viability as a site for land-based nuclear missiles pointed west.
    I’ll spare the details, but I have an unbalanced sociopath in my family and he behaves in the small picture just as trump behaves in the big one. They both like to fuck with EVERYONE, even those who might be loyal to them.
    In both cases, it is time to fuck back.

  75. Now my reaction is “Russian style” hah, you mean calling your longest term ally not reliable? If what happened in the last 100 days destroyed “70 years of goodwill and alliances” then they were pretty weak to begin with.

  76. Now my reaction is “Russian style” hah, you mean calling your longest term ally not reliable? If what happened in the last 100 days destroyed “70 years of goodwill and alliances” then they were pretty weak to begin with.

  79. If your longest-term ally is being flaky on Article 5, what else would you call it? You weren’t a Trump voter, and you’re not really much of a Trump supporter (although seemingly increasingly unable to look at what he does with a cool eye), so why are you recently so unwilling to see what a terrible mess he is making of things, in this case his foreign trip?

  80. If your longest-term ally is being flaky on Article 5, what else would you call it? You weren’t a Trump voter, and you’re not really much of a Trump supporter (although seemingly increasingly unable to look at what he does with a cool eye), so why are you recently so unwilling to see what a terrible mess he is making of things, in this case his foreign trip?

  83. In the same vein, I condemn this bullying too, from the ostensible Left, though they are too callow to be so defined:
    http://www.mediaite.com/online/professor-at-evergreen-state-college-chased-off-campus-by-students-protesting-his-racism/
    This behavior and its rewards are ridiculous too:
    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/yale-rewards-student-thugs-bullies/
    There are so many guilty legitimate targets and these dummies eat their own.
    Both campuses need to invite Coulter/Ingraham and Sessions/Cruz to speak so the focus can be placed back where it belongs.

  84. In the same vein, I condemn this bullying too, from the ostensible Left, though they are too callow to be so defined:
    http://www.mediaite.com/online/professor-at-evergreen-state-college-chased-off-campus-by-students-protesting-his-racism/
    This behavior and its rewards are ridiculous too:
    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/yale-rewards-student-thugs-bullies/
    There are so many guilty legitimate targets and these dummies eat their own.
    Both campuses need to invite Coulter/Ingraham and Sessions/Cruz to speak so the focus can be placed back where it belongs.

  87. GftNC, I am not a Trump supporter, this has little to do with Trump. He has affirmed his support for NATO, drawing some verbal line in the sand was meant to make him back off the point. The same point Bush and Obama made.
    Merkel meeting with Obama in the midst of Trumps European visit is about as in your face as can be. They, Merkel and Macron, are the opposition party and are trying to influence our elections by making outrageous statements about Trump.

  88. GftNC, I am not a Trump supporter, this has little to do with Trump. He has affirmed his support for NATO, drawing some verbal line in the sand was meant to make him back off the point. The same point Bush and Obama made.
    Merkel meeting with Obama in the midst of Trumps European visit is about as in your face as can be. They, Merkel and Macron, are the opposition party and are trying to influence our elections by making outrageous statements about Trump.

  89. They, Merkel and Macron, are the opposition party and are trying to influence our elections by making outrageous statements about Trump.
    Here we go.
    I best not reply further.

  90. They, Merkel and Macron, are the opposition party and are trying to influence our elections by making outrageous statements about Trump.
    Here we go.
    I best not reply further.

  91. Marty, this is everything to do with Trump. He has zero idea (and you may not either) of the effect that his extraordinary statements are having in contexts where the most careful, judicious diplomatic language is the norm. These countries and their leaders have no preference for Dem over Republican, they want American leaders who understand NATO, and the general world order which has been painstakingly maintained for 70 years. They are not making outrageous statements about Trump, he is making non-stop outrageous and ignorant statements about everything of any importance whatsoever, and people’s disbelief is giving way to a determination not let the disintegration of the American project lead to the disintegration of the entire liberal democratic world.

  92. Marty, this is everything to do with Trump. He has zero idea (and you may not either) of the effect that his extraordinary statements are having in contexts where the most careful, judicious diplomatic language is the norm. These countries and their leaders have no preference for Dem over Republican, they want American leaders who understand NATO, and the general world order which has been painstakingly maintained for 70 years. They are not making outrageous statements about Trump, he is making non-stop outrageous and ignorant statements about everything of any importance whatsoever, and people’s disbelief is giving way to a determination not let the disintegration of the American project lead to the disintegration of the entire liberal democratic world.

  93. this is everything to do with Trump.
    It definitely has to do with Trump, GftNC, but it also has to do with cynicism of Americans who support him (whether with their vote or their arguments). It’s Memorial Day, and we remember (in Ivanka Trump’s case, with champagne popsicles) the sacrifices of the dead who gave us our long peace. These cynical people are bored with that.

  94. this is everything to do with Trump.
    It definitely has to do with Trump, GftNC, but it also has to do with cynicism of Americans who support him (whether with their vote or their arguments). It’s Memorial Day, and we remember (in Ivanka Trump’s case, with champagne popsicles) the sacrifices of the dead who gave us our long peace. These cynical people are bored with that.

  95. Marty, did you look at the brief video I posted ?
    You do realise that Martin Schulz is running against Merkel ?

  96. Marty, did you look at the brief video I posted ?
    You do realise that Martin Schulz is running against Merkel ?

  97. Mattis: “The more that we put into the State Department’s diplomacy, hopefully the less we have to put into a military budget.”
    And there you have it. If your definition of success is winning military victories, you’ve got to have a huge military. And if a robust State Department is the road to needing less in the military budget, then it follows that you need to gut their budget. QED
    Suddenly much becomes clear.

  98. Mattis: “The more that we put into the State Department’s diplomacy, hopefully the less we have to put into a military budget.”
    And there you have it. If your definition of success is winning military victories, you’ve got to have a huge military. And if a robust State Department is the road to needing less in the military budget, then it follows that you need to gut their budget. QED
    Suddenly much becomes clear.

  99. Not on thread, but since you asked people to “de-lurk,” here goes. I have “lurked” for a number of years, on and off, basically because the conversation here seems better than the vast majority of what is elsewhere on the internet. Thank you for that. Politically I line up with the large majority of the regular contributors, so have not felt like I have much to add. Of late, I have been reading more religion than politics, trying to somehow deal with the contempt and anger I feel at the people who have put us in this insane position — like just about everyone, that includes friends and family members, thank god not many. I am not ignoring the problem, just trying not to be eaten alive by it. Trump has already been a disaster for the country, and I think that our best case scenario is that he remains a largely ineffectual disaster. I fear that the real catastrophe is yet to come, maybe not far off, and maybe in response to the investigative walls closing in on him. The profound ignorance and sociopathic lack of empathy the man demonstrates makes things possible now which would have been close to unthinkable. I very much hope to be proven wrong. Thanks again.

  100. Not on thread, but since you asked people to “de-lurk,” here goes. I have “lurked” for a number of years, on and off, basically because the conversation here seems better than the vast majority of what is elsewhere on the internet. Thank you for that. Politically I line up with the large majority of the regular contributors, so have not felt like I have much to add. Of late, I have been reading more religion than politics, trying to somehow deal with the contempt and anger I feel at the people who have put us in this insane position — like just about everyone, that includes friends and family members, thank god not many. I am not ignoring the problem, just trying not to be eaten alive by it. Trump has already been a disaster for the country, and I think that our best case scenario is that he remains a largely ineffectual disaster. I fear that the real catastrophe is yet to come, maybe not far off, and maybe in response to the investigative walls closing in on him. The profound ignorance and sociopathic lack of empathy the man demonstrates makes things possible now which would have been close to unthinkable. I very much hope to be proven wrong. Thanks again.

  103. Oh man it’s been ages since I posted a comment!
    Um… ummm (panics) uhhhhhh… think, Paul… think…
    Oh, I know!
    There is no pit of hell deep enough for Mitch McConnell.

  104. Oh man it’s been ages since I posted a comment!
    Um… ummm (panics) uhhhhhh… think, Paul… think…
    Oh, I know!
    There is no pit of hell deep enough for Mitch McConnell.

  105. Hard to see how the USA climbs out of the pit of the Trump presidency. It’s not just the politicians that need to get their heads realigned, it’s the voters.
    …after Trump cartoon
    Change the caption to “…but her emails”, and here we are.

  106. Hard to see how the USA climbs out of the pit of the Trump presidency. It’s not just the politicians that need to get their heads realigned, it’s the voters.
    …after Trump cartoon
    Change the caption to “…but her emails”, and here we are.

  107. Absolutely this has to do with Trump.
    It’s not that we disagree with him about stuff, though we do. Nor that we’re affronted by his relentless boorishness, though we are. It’s that he’s incapable of contributing to an intelligent and informed discussion. He can’t be trusted with a secret. He can’t even be asked to pay attention for four minutes in a row to the presentation of a complex issue. He’s simply not within a million miles of being up to the job.
    Which wouldn’t really be our business, except that the President of the United States is the leader of the western world.

  108. Absolutely this has to do with Trump.
    It’s not that we disagree with him about stuff, though we do. Nor that we’re affronted by his relentless boorishness, though we are. It’s that he’s incapable of contributing to an intelligent and informed discussion. He can’t be trusted with a secret. He can’t even be asked to pay attention for four minutes in a row to the presentation of a complex issue. He’s simply not within a million miles of being up to the job.
    Which wouldn’t really be our business, except that the President of the United States is the leader of the western world.

  109. i have long kept trying to remind myself not to assume malice when stupidity will cover the known facts but we seem to have reached a point at which the ugly intersection of malice and stupidity has been elected to the world stage and has just finished taking the show on the road with truly predictable results. at the end of the day 45 has shown our democratic allies that he is a loose cannon who cannot be trusted with information, nor can he be trusted to hold our alliances together. at the same time he has shown our authoritarian allies that he is happy to work with them because they are bigly strong, just as he sees himself. these developments are both frightening and sad but they are not unexpected. did he not promise disorder and change as he campaigned? did he not encourage violence against reporters and protesters as he campaigned? was he not malice and stupidity personified on the campaign trail? and he has delivered all of that and more in office.

  110. i have long kept trying to remind myself not to assume malice when stupidity will cover the known facts but we seem to have reached a point at which the ugly intersection of malice and stupidity has been elected to the world stage and has just finished taking the show on the road with truly predictable results. at the end of the day 45 has shown our democratic allies that he is a loose cannon who cannot be trusted with information, nor can he be trusted to hold our alliances together. at the same time he has shown our authoritarian allies that he is happy to work with them because they are bigly strong, just as he sees himself. these developments are both frightening and sad but they are not unexpected. did he not promise disorder and change as he campaigned? did he not encourage violence against reporters and protesters as he campaigned? was he not malice and stupidity personified on the campaign trail? and he has delivered all of that and more in office.

  111. Which wouldn’t really be our business, except that the President of the United States is used to be the leader of the western world.

  112. Which wouldn’t really be our business, except that the President of the United States is used to be the leader of the western world.

  113. And the day may come when the President of the United States is that leader again.** Just . . . not this President.
    ** Of what isn’t just the “western” world. “Free world” seems closer, if not perfectly accurate. At least it recognizes that Japan and Korean, among others, are (or at least were) a part of it.

  114. And the day may come when the President of the United States is that leader again.** Just . . . not this President.
    ** Of what isn’t just the “western” world. “Free world” seems closer, if not perfectly accurate. At least it recognizes that Japan and Korean, among others, are (or at least were) a part of it.

  119. Sapient, did I miss the announcement identifying you as the identifier and arbiter of acceptable viewpoints? The person authorized to hold others and their views to account? Hint: if you’re going to call me to account, try to pay more attention to what I say. Or, just leave my name out of your Pepsi challenges.
    We both must have missed that, McKinney!
    By the way, when are your Republican friends going to invoke the 25th? Have you checked with them about that? Or advocated for it? Or held up a sign?
    Where are you on the subject of Trump and NATO? What did you think of his foreign travels? Maybe I missed (in addition to whatever you were going on about) your take? What do you think about the unfortunate hate crimes in Maryland and in Oregon? White supremacists – when will we start profiling them, and asking “their communities” to condemn them?
    I’m genuinely curious.

  120. Sapient, did I miss the announcement identifying you as the identifier and arbiter of acceptable viewpoints? The person authorized to hold others and their views to account? Hint: if you’re going to call me to account, try to pay more attention to what I say. Or, just leave my name out of your Pepsi challenges.
    We both must have missed that, McKinney!
    By the way, when are your Republican friends going to invoke the 25th? Have you checked with them about that? Or advocated for it? Or held up a sign?
    Where are you on the subject of Trump and NATO? What did you think of his foreign travels? Maybe I missed (in addition to whatever you were going on about) your take? What do you think about the unfortunate hate crimes in Maryland and in Oregon? White supremacists – when will we start profiling them, and asking “their communities” to condemn them?
    I’m genuinely curious.

  121. Oddly, the nationalism expressed in Merkels comments are not really different from Trumps
    sometimes I tango when I drink whiskey, sometimes I foxtrot.
    glad to hear from some familiar names and some not so familiar. please jump in anytime!

  122. Oddly, the nationalism expressed in Merkels comments are not really different from Trumps
    sometimes I tango when I drink whiskey, sometimes I foxtrot.
    glad to hear from some familiar names and some not so familiar. please jump in anytime!

  123. also, FWIW, a coup is the illegal overthrow of a government, typically by violent means.
    investigating potentially criminal activities by an officeholder, including possible collusion with an unfriendly foreign power to interfere with the electoral process, is not a coup.
    rather the opposite, I would think.
    should trump find himself out on his ass, it will be because he has earned it.

  124. also, FWIW, a coup is the illegal overthrow of a government, typically by violent means.
    investigating potentially criminal activities by an officeholder, including possible collusion with an unfriendly foreign power to interfere with the electoral process, is not a coup.
    rather the opposite, I would think.
    should trump find himself out on his ass, it will be because he has earned it.

  125. William Nickles,
    lovely stuff. Are you doing it from the Chinese or assembling different English translations? Nothing wrong with the latter, I was pulled into reading Homer by Christopher Logue’s translation.

  126. William Nickles,
    lovely stuff. Are you doing it from the Chinese or assembling different English translations? Nothing wrong with the latter, I was pulled into reading Homer by Christopher Logue’s translation.

  127. @Marty
    “If what happened in the last 100 days destroyed “70 years of goodwill and alliances” then they were pretty weak to begin with.”
    Or possibly a dangerous and deluded extremist made it clear that he was not willing to live up to the basic provisions of that alliance. It’s time that supposedly reasonable conservatives stopped deluding themselves about Trump – and about how reasonable they actually are. Europe has no obligation to pretend that Trump is anything but a vicious, bigoted serial fraudster whose word is as worthless as his character and that of the fascist rabble he leads.

  128. @Marty
    “If what happened in the last 100 days destroyed “70 years of goodwill and alliances” then they were pretty weak to begin with.”
    Or possibly a dangerous and deluded extremist made it clear that he was not willing to live up to the basic provisions of that alliance. It’s time that supposedly reasonable conservatives stopped deluding themselves about Trump – and about how reasonable they actually are. Europe has no obligation to pretend that Trump is anything but a vicious, bigoted serial fraudster whose word is as worthless as his character and that of the fascist rabble he leads.

  129. Europe has no obligation to pretend that Trump is anything but a vicious, bigoted serial fraudster whose word is as worthless as his character and that of the fascist rabble he leads.
    Americans should quit giving him any more credit than that as well.

  130. Europe has no obligation to pretend that Trump is anything but a vicious, bigoted serial fraudster whose word is as worthless as his character and that of the fascist rabble he leads.
    Americans should quit giving him any more credit than that as well.

  131. William Nickles, Are you doing it from the Chinese or assembling different English translations
    the latter

  132. William Nickles, Are you doing it from the Chinese or assembling different English translations
    the latter

  133. Yes there have been some problems … but
    I’m sure the victims of our numerous disastrous foreign interventions since WW2 will be assuaged by the fact that technological innovation has made life more comfortable and we live in an era of unprecedented global travel (especially for US citizens!). Hey, I’m sure they think that, all in all, that makes their suffering worth it.
    Seriously, you couldn’t make this sh@t up.

  134. Yes there have been some problems … but
    I’m sure the victims of our numerous disastrous foreign interventions since WW2 will be assuaged by the fact that technological innovation has made life more comfortable and we live in an era of unprecedented global travel (especially for US citizens!). Hey, I’m sure they think that, all in all, that makes their suffering worth it.
    Seriously, you couldn’t make this sh@t up.

  137. Marty, even in incognito mode: “Sorry, this video cannot be played in your present location” (very frequent message from US, by the way). Would you be able to summarise?

  138. Marty, even in incognito mode: “Sorry, this video cannot be played in your present location” (very frequent message from US, by the way). Would you be able to summarise?

  139. Sure, the basic message in the interview was there was a lot of political theater going on while on the ground relationships between countries are more or less unchanged. The actual risk to NATO is realistically infinitesmal and establishing back channel contact is pretty normal business for a new administration, And there is certainly a coordinated resistance to Trump that will be manifested in someway, if not the Kushner story of the day it will be something else.

  140. Sure, the basic message in the interview was there was a lot of political theater going on while on the ground relationships between countries are more or less unchanged. The actual risk to NATO is realistically infinitesmal and establishing back channel contact is pretty normal business for a new administration, And there is certainly a coordinated resistance to Trump that will be manifested in someway, if not the Kushner story of the day it will be something else.

  141. “And in a new development, CBS News has confirmed that three leakers of classified information at the White House have been identified and are expected to be fired.
    According to CBS, “officials within the Trump White House believe leaks of Mr. Trump’s conversation with Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov are a “deliberate attempt” by officials who are holdovers from President Obama’s administration and are trying to damage the Trump presidency.””

  142. “And in a new development, CBS News has confirmed that three leakers of classified information at the White House have been identified and are expected to be fired.
    According to CBS, “officials within the Trump White House believe leaks of Mr. Trump’s conversation with Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov are a “deliberate attempt” by officials who are holdovers from President Obama’s administration and are trying to damage the Trump presidency.””

  143. I contribute wherever I feel I have expertise to add. So, not very often then!
    We’re in the middle of the UK general election campaign over here, and I’m in the middle of moving house. It turns out that “moving all the boxes from one house to another” is not, in fact, the endpoint of moving house. We’ve been to Ikea to get the extra furniture but we still have weeks of furniture-building and unpacking to do.
    At least the MiL is not coming to stay until next week, now (it was going to be today). We might have a chance of building the daybed in the 2nd bedroom and having a clear path to it by then.
    Of course we’re going to a wedding at the other end of the country this weekend, so that wipes out most of our usable time between now and then.
    Back on the election campaign, Jeremy Corbyn, leader of the opposition Labour party, has narrowed the gap between them and the Tories from circa 20 points when Theresa May called the snap election to somewhere between 5 and 10 points depending on what polling you believe. It’s not enough to win, but it might be enough to return May with a parliamentary majority not much different to what she already has (which is 12 seats).
    That would be a massive embarrassment for her and the Tory party, and probably enough to keep Corbyn in-post until the next election if he wants to be.

  144. I contribute wherever I feel I have expertise to add. So, not very often then!
    We’re in the middle of the UK general election campaign over here, and I’m in the middle of moving house. It turns out that “moving all the boxes from one house to another” is not, in fact, the endpoint of moving house. We’ve been to Ikea to get the extra furniture but we still have weeks of furniture-building and unpacking to do.
    At least the MiL is not coming to stay until next week, now (it was going to be today). We might have a chance of building the daybed in the 2nd bedroom and having a clear path to it by then.
    Of course we’re going to a wedding at the other end of the country this weekend, so that wipes out most of our usable time between now and then.
    Back on the election campaign, Jeremy Corbyn, leader of the opposition Labour party, has narrowed the gap between them and the Tories from circa 20 points when Theresa May called the snap election to somewhere between 5 and 10 points depending on what polling you believe. It’s not enough to win, but it might be enough to return May with a parliamentary majority not much different to what she already has (which is 12 seats).
    That would be a massive embarrassment for her and the Tory party, and probably enough to keep Corbyn in-post until the next election if he wants to be.

  145. Aha, thank you for that.
    on the ground relationships between countries are more or less unchanged.
    This is possibly true for the moment, while European powers desperately hope that Congress comes to its senses and replaces the conman/criminal/cognitively impaired ignorant child in the White House with a grown-up.
    The actual risk to NATO is realistically infinitesmal
    I hope this is true, and it might be (see above).
    and establishing back channel contact is pretty normal business for a new administration
    If this refers to the Trump campaign and Russia, it’s the current attempt to muddy the waters and describe what is possibly treason or espionage, and definitely highly suspicious (or why try and evade your own intelligence services by offering to, of all incredible things, use Russian telecommunications equipment).
    And there is certainly a coordinated resistance to Trump that will be manifested in someway, if not the Kushner story of the day it will be something else
    This is true enough, and thank God for it since it shows that there are people in the US, on both sides of the political divide, who see what a disaster Trump is and what a much worse disaster he will be if he remains in office. Of course in many ways Pence will be worse, because probably more capable of actually passing damaging legislation, but the challenges to the relative stability of the world order will at least recede somewhat.

  146. Aha, thank you for that.
    on the ground relationships between countries are more or less unchanged.
    This is possibly true for the moment, while European powers desperately hope that Congress comes to its senses and replaces the conman/criminal/cognitively impaired ignorant child in the White House with a grown-up.
    The actual risk to NATO is realistically infinitesmal
    I hope this is true, and it might be (see above).
    and establishing back channel contact is pretty normal business for a new administration
    If this refers to the Trump campaign and Russia, it’s the current attempt to muddy the waters and describe what is possibly treason or espionage, and definitely highly suspicious (or why try and evade your own intelligence services by offering to, of all incredible things, use Russian telecommunications equipment).
    And there is certainly a coordinated resistance to Trump that will be manifested in someway, if not the Kushner story of the day it will be something else
    This is true enough, and thank God for it since it shows that there are people in the US, on both sides of the political divide, who see what a disaster Trump is and what a much worse disaster he will be if he remains in office. Of course in many ways Pence will be worse, because probably more capable of actually passing damaging legislation, but the challenges to the relative stability of the world order will at least recede somewhat.

  147. who are holdovers from President Obama’s administration and are trying to damage the Trump presidency
    yeah, that’s right. the leakers are the problem.
    pay no attention to the bumbling idiot toddler; the problem is that his baby sitters keep telling people what he’s broken.

  148. who are holdovers from President Obama’s administration and are trying to damage the Trump presidency
    yeah, that’s right. the leakers are the problem.
    pay no attention to the bumbling idiot toddler; the problem is that his baby sitters keep telling people what he’s broken.

  149. the conman/criminal/cognitively impaired ignorant child in the White House
    Actually, I take back “criminal”. If I object to Marty calling HRC a criminal (and I do), it behoves me to be careful about how I use the word. If I understand correctly (and do please tell me if I am wrong), Trump has never been convicted of a criminal offence.

  150. the conman/criminal/cognitively impaired ignorant child in the White House
    Actually, I take back “criminal”. If I object to Marty calling HRC a criminal (and I do), it behoves me to be careful about how I use the word. If I understand correctly (and do please tell me if I am wrong), Trump has never been convicted of a criminal offence.

  151. Trump has never been convicted of a criminal offence.
    true.
    that’s because he always settles suits against him. he’s paid many tens of millions of dollars to settle dozens of cases – despite him saying that he never settles cases.

  152. Trump has never been convicted of a criminal offence.
    true.
    that’s because he always settles suits against him. he’s paid many tens of millions of dollars to settle dozens of cases – despite him saying that he never settles cases.

  153. cleek, were those criminal cases or civil? I didn’t think you could settle criminal cases by payment? But maybe I’m wrong.

  154. cleek, were those criminal cases or civil? I didn’t think you could settle criminal cases by payment? But maybe I’m wrong.

  155. I didn’t think you could settle criminal cases by payment? But maybe I’m wrong.
    Technically, you can’t. But it is sometimes possible that, for sufficient consideration, a critical witness may suddenly develop a memory loss.
    And no, I have no idea if this might have occurred with regards to Trump. Just saying that it’s possible . . . albeit constituting an illegal obstruction of justice.

  156. I didn’t think you could settle criminal cases by payment? But maybe I’m wrong.
    Technically, you can’t. But it is sometimes possible that, for sufficient consideration, a critical witness may suddenly develop a memory loss.
    And no, I have no idea if this might have occurred with regards to Trump. Just saying that it’s possible . . . albeit constituting an illegal obstruction of justice.

  157. if you can get the plaintiffs to stop cooperating with law enforcement they might drop the case.
    here’s a nice one involving, of course, real-estate fraud, Russian investors, the Russian mafia and his business partners receiving “unexplained infusions of cash from accounts in Kazakhstan and Russia”

    The backdrop to that unusual denouement was a gathering legal storm that threatened to cast a harsh light on how he did business. Besides the fraud accusations, a separate lawsuit claimed that Trump SoHo was developed with the undisclosed involvement of convicted felons and financing from questionable sources in Russia and Kazakhstan.
    And hovering over it all was a criminal investigation, previously unreported, by the Manhattan district attorney into whether the fraud alleged by the condo buyers broke any laws, according to documents and interviews with five people familiar with it. The buyers initially helped in the investigation, but as part of their lawsuit settlement, they had to notify prosecutors that they no longer wished to do so.
    The criminal case was eventually closed.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/06/us/politics/donald-trump-soho-settlement.html?_r=0

  158. if you can get the plaintiffs to stop cooperating with law enforcement they might drop the case.
    here’s a nice one involving, of course, real-estate fraud, Russian investors, the Russian mafia and his business partners receiving “unexplained infusions of cash from accounts in Kazakhstan and Russia”

    The backdrop to that unusual denouement was a gathering legal storm that threatened to cast a harsh light on how he did business. Besides the fraud accusations, a separate lawsuit claimed that Trump SoHo was developed with the undisclosed involvement of convicted felons and financing from questionable sources in Russia and Kazakhstan.
    And hovering over it all was a criminal investigation, previously unreported, by the Manhattan district attorney into whether the fraud alleged by the condo buyers broke any laws, according to documents and interviews with five people familiar with it. The buyers initially helped in the investigation, but as part of their lawsuit settlement, they had to notify prosecutors that they no longer wished to do so.
    The criminal case was eventually closed.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/06/us/politics/donald-trump-soho-settlement.html?_r=0

  161. I have been lurking since around 2006 (!). I browse a few blogs but I don’t comment much. The browsing alone takes up too much of my time!
    I like ObWi b/c there is not as much vitriol in the comments. Or maybe I should say it has about the right amount of vitriol.

  162. I have been lurking since around 2006 (!). I browse a few blogs but I don’t comment much. The browsing alone takes up too much of my time!
    I like ObWi b/c there is not as much vitriol in the comments. Or maybe I should say it has about the right amount of vitriol.

  163. The actual risk to NATO is realistically infinitesmal
    I’d ask folks who live there and see what their point of view is.
    and establishing back channel contact is pretty normal business for a new administration
    “Establishing back channel” doesn’t usually involve using secured comms operated by the counterparty. In order to evade the involvement of your own legal and intelligence organizations.
    Right?
    It’s hardly worth even discussing this stuff, and I have a really hard time understanding your motivation in pursuing the lines of argument that you present here.
    These people are crooks and grifters and have always been crooks and grifters. It’s something of a fluke that he’s in the office, and if he doesn’t do significant damage before he’s done it will be truly remarkable.
    People aren’t “out to get him”, people are trying to figure out WTF is going on. There’s a lot of negative press about Trump because he’s a crap POTUS, and possible a criminal, and possibly involved directly or indirectly in actions that undermine our political process and institutions.
    That stuff attracts negative attention.
    If you want to cut him slack until all of the investigation is complete, that’s fine. But the “there’s nothing of substance here” and “it’s all just a political vendetta” stuff is nonsense. It’s worse than nonsense, it’s folly. It’s asking for disaster.
    You’re welcome to it, but I have a hard time even responding to it in any kind of substantial way.
    It’s true, it’s possible that all of the noise is just holdovers from the Obama administration taking it out on Trump because they’re still miffed about Clinton losing.
    It’s also possible that Jimmy Hoffa is alive and well. They never found the body, right? He’d be 100-something years old, but it’s not out of the question.
    At a certain point countering the points you make ends up making the rest of us look foolish, too. If you didn’t have the history you have here, I’d swear you were just trolling us all for the lulz.
    The man is a crook. His kids are crooks. His son-in-law is a crook. They have no respect for anything except their own wealth and self-regard.
    I respect the process that put him in office, but I have no regard for him or his entourage, and damned little for the folks who voted for him.
    I expect, in fact demand and require, that the various investigations into him and his crew will continue until all of the extraordinary events surrounding his campaign and election are explained. And then, wherever that takes us, we will have to go. Like it or not.
    It all sucks, but I’ll put up with it, because the alternative is chaos. I guess there are situations where just letting chaos play out is the better choice, but thankfully we aren’t there yet.

  164. The actual risk to NATO is realistically infinitesmal
    I’d ask folks who live there and see what their point of view is.
    and establishing back channel contact is pretty normal business for a new administration
    “Establishing back channel” doesn’t usually involve using secured comms operated by the counterparty. In order to evade the involvement of your own legal and intelligence organizations.
    Right?
    It’s hardly worth even discussing this stuff, and I have a really hard time understanding your motivation in pursuing the lines of argument that you present here.
    These people are crooks and grifters and have always been crooks and grifters. It’s something of a fluke that he’s in the office, and if he doesn’t do significant damage before he’s done it will be truly remarkable.
    People aren’t “out to get him”, people are trying to figure out WTF is going on. There’s a lot of negative press about Trump because he’s a crap POTUS, and possible a criminal, and possibly involved directly or indirectly in actions that undermine our political process and institutions.
    That stuff attracts negative attention.
    If you want to cut him slack until all of the investigation is complete, that’s fine. But the “there’s nothing of substance here” and “it’s all just a political vendetta” stuff is nonsense. It’s worse than nonsense, it’s folly. It’s asking for disaster.
    You’re welcome to it, but I have a hard time even responding to it in any kind of substantial way.
    It’s true, it’s possible that all of the noise is just holdovers from the Obama administration taking it out on Trump because they’re still miffed about Clinton losing.
    It’s also possible that Jimmy Hoffa is alive and well. They never found the body, right? He’d be 100-something years old, but it’s not out of the question.
    At a certain point countering the points you make ends up making the rest of us look foolish, too. If you didn’t have the history you have here, I’d swear you were just trolling us all for the lulz.
    The man is a crook. His kids are crooks. His son-in-law is a crook. They have no respect for anything except their own wealth and self-regard.
    I respect the process that put him in office, but I have no regard for him or his entourage, and damned little for the folks who voted for him.
    I expect, in fact demand and require, that the various investigations into him and his crew will continue until all of the extraordinary events surrounding his campaign and election are explained. And then, wherever that takes us, we will have to go. Like it or not.
    It all sucks, but I’ll put up with it, because the alternative is chaos. I guess there are situations where just letting chaos play out is the better choice, but thankfully we aren’t there yet.

  167. seems to me that Marty has taken it upon himself to defend whatever Trump does, as long as it’s technically not illegal. and if there’s a benefit of the doubt to be given when it comes to Trump, Marty gives it. if there are unanswered questions, Marty assumes Trump’s innocence.
    he’s not a Trump supporter. just a staunch Trump defender.
    i get it: Trump’s troubles hurt the GOP, and Marty’s a loyal Republican. so he’s fighting for his team.
    looks like a losing cause, to me.

  168. seems to me that Marty has taken it upon himself to defend whatever Trump does, as long as it’s technically not illegal. and if there’s a benefit of the doubt to be given when it comes to Trump, Marty gives it. if there are unanswered questions, Marty assumes Trump’s innocence.
    he’s not a Trump supporter. just a staunch Trump defender.
    i get it: Trump’s troubles hurt the GOP, and Marty’s a loyal Republican. so he’s fighting for his team.
    looks like a losing cause, to me.

  169. Pretty much what russell said, and also what cleek said, with this caveat: I think Marty is not so much a staunch Trump defender (although he does seem to do some of that) as a staunch Democrat/lefty attacker, in a variant of my enemy’s enemy is my friend (loosely speaking – I know that Marty does not regard us here at ObWi as enemies). He’s in a bind when it comes to sane Republicans of course.

  170. Pretty much what russell said, and also what cleek said, with this caveat: I think Marty is not so much a staunch Trump defender (although he does seem to do some of that) as a staunch Democrat/lefty attacker, in a variant of my enemy’s enemy is my friend (loosely speaking – I know that Marty does not regard us here at ObWi as enemies). He’s in a bind when it comes to sane Republicans of course.

  173. “[Marty’s] not a Trump supporter. just a staunch Trump defender.”
    cleek, cleek, cleek…isn’t clear?1??
    Marty is 100% following cleek’s law.
    It’s not that Marty luvvs him some Trump, it’s his reaction to ‘those lefties’ attacking Trump.

  174. “[Marty’s] not a Trump supporter. just a staunch Trump defender.”
    cleek, cleek, cleek…isn’t clear?1??
    Marty is 100% following cleek’s law.
    It’s not that Marty luvvs him some Trump, it’s his reaction to ‘those lefties’ attacking Trump.

  177. cleek, cleek, cleek…isn’t clear?
    oh i see it, i was just trying to tapdance around saying it. ♫ !

  178. cleek, cleek, cleek…isn’t clear?
    oh i see it, i was just trying to tapdance around saying it. ♫ !

  179. Imagine you knew somebody who:
    1) Sided with the Republican Thug in Montana who beat up a reporter;
    2) Sided with UAL’s glorified mall cops when they beat up a passenger;
    3) Believed (or at least, wrote) of Obama that he “killed a Supreme”;
    4) Favors single payer health insurance and blames the Democrats for it not being law;
    5) Expresses contempt for He, Trump in general, but defends Him against every particular criticism.
    Would you go out of your way to “understand” such a person?
    –TP

  180. Imagine you knew somebody who:
    1) Sided with the Republican Thug in Montana who beat up a reporter;
    2) Sided with UAL’s glorified mall cops when they beat up a passenger;
    3) Believed (or at least, wrote) of Obama that he “killed a Supreme”;
    4) Favors single payer health insurance and blames the Democrats for it not being law;
    5) Expresses contempt for He, Trump in general, but defends Him against every particular criticism.
    Would you go out of your way to “understand” such a person?
    –TP

  181. Would you go out of your way to “understand” such a person?
    Maybe for the diversion of it, like solving riddles and puzzles that serve no practical purpose.

  182. Would you go out of your way to “understand” such a person?
    Maybe for the diversion of it, like solving riddles and puzzles that serve no practical purpose.

  183. Believed (or at least, wrote) of Obama that he “killed a Supreme”
    Wait, what?
    I guess I missed that one.

  184. Believed (or at least, wrote) of Obama that he “killed a Supreme”
    Wait, what?
    I guess I missed that one.

  191. Links, schminks. Here it is, unedited; emphasis added:

    Doc, the executive order discussion isn’t a question of how many, it is a question of what. He has purposefully and with astounding hubris rewritten laws. Maybe you should put a few brain cells into the longer term implications of a President simply telling the executive branch to stop enforcing any law he doesn’t like. He is trying to get a legacy he couldn’t achieve. And now he killed a Supreme.
    A man who would be king.
    Posted by: Marty | February 14, 2016 at 11:46 AM

  192. Links, schminks. Here it is, unedited; emphasis added:

    Doc, the executive order discussion isn’t a question of how many, it is a question of what. He has purposefully and with astounding hubris rewritten laws. Maybe you should put a few brain cells into the longer term implications of a President simply telling the executive branch to stop enforcing any law he doesn’t like. He is trying to get a legacy he couldn’t achieve. And now he killed a Supreme.
    A man who would be king.
    Posted by: Marty | February 14, 2016 at 11:46 AM

  193. ” if there are unanswered questions, Marty assumes Trump’s innocence.”
    I have not defended his choice of Sessions or pretty much anything Sessions has done. I haven’t defended Flynn, for a second. I have been circumspect about Kushner because I had hoped he might provide a counter weight to whatever Bannon is up to, which seems to have been somewhat muted.
    I watched Brennan and Mattis say that establishing back channels in and of itself isn’t really unusual. I watched Brennan say that he gave Russians intelligence all the time. I also watched him say that it was at least as troubling that what was said to the Russians was leaked, and more damaging.
    I watched Trump hold his own on several campaign promises with the Germans while leaving himself wiggle room to cut a deal later.
    I read the write ups, the other NATO leaders were upset because they felt like he was there to make a deal. He was, why does that upset them? He didn’t agree on climate change, so what? He doesn’t agree, he campaigned on not agreeing. Did they think he was going to have an epiphany?
    The problem isn’t that I take up for him, when he is wrong I am happy to agree. But it is unproductive for our country to pound him for everything that can be spun into a problem.
    And yes, I assume, with all the facts that have been presented that he is innocent of a crime.
    Why do I argue? Because the constant barrage of unnecessary handwringing and accusations is designed for the purpose of preventing any of the Republican agenda being enacted. Much of which I support. Which is primarily why most of you think its ok. So yes, Trumps troubles hurt Republicans, and I am happy for that to happen when its called for. and not otherwise.
    “Those people” don’t care about Trump or him talking to a Russian ambassador or Kushner having meetings or how Trump interacted with the G-7 leaders. “Those people” just want to create enough noise to prevent the Congress from doing its job.
    And its working. So at the end of every to weeks or so there is another story about how Trumps agenda isn’t getting passed and how that is due to his incompetence, which is partially true.
    He is not competent at the political gamesmanship being played by members of his own and the opposition party, and now opposition world leaders.

  194. ” if there are unanswered questions, Marty assumes Trump’s innocence.”
    I have not defended his choice of Sessions or pretty much anything Sessions has done. I haven’t defended Flynn, for a second. I have been circumspect about Kushner because I had hoped he might provide a counter weight to whatever Bannon is up to, which seems to have been somewhat muted.
    I watched Brennan and Mattis say that establishing back channels in and of itself isn’t really unusual. I watched Brennan say that he gave Russians intelligence all the time. I also watched him say that it was at least as troubling that what was said to the Russians was leaked, and more damaging.
    I watched Trump hold his own on several campaign promises with the Germans while leaving himself wiggle room to cut a deal later.
    I read the write ups, the other NATO leaders were upset because they felt like he was there to make a deal. He was, why does that upset them? He didn’t agree on climate change, so what? He doesn’t agree, he campaigned on not agreeing. Did they think he was going to have an epiphany?
    The problem isn’t that I take up for him, when he is wrong I am happy to agree. But it is unproductive for our country to pound him for everything that can be spun into a problem.
    And yes, I assume, with all the facts that have been presented that he is innocent of a crime.
    Why do I argue? Because the constant barrage of unnecessary handwringing and accusations is designed for the purpose of preventing any of the Republican agenda being enacted. Much of which I support. Which is primarily why most of you think its ok. So yes, Trumps troubles hurt Republicans, and I am happy for that to happen when its called for. and not otherwise.
    “Those people” don’t care about Trump or him talking to a Russian ambassador or Kushner having meetings or how Trump interacted with the G-7 leaders. “Those people” just want to create enough noise to prevent the Congress from doing its job.
    And its working. So at the end of every to weeks or so there is another story about how Trumps agenda isn’t getting passed and how that is due to his incompetence, which is partially true.
    He is not competent at the political gamesmanship being played by members of his own and the opposition party, and now opposition world leaders.

  195. But pending Tony P’s reply, I would just say this. I’ve been very aware, in the last thread and this, while debating Marty’s views, that he seems to have an automatic reflex in the first instance to believe whatever version of events is put out by “the authorities”, whoever they may be in any situation, and before evidence or more details emerge. Regarding the examples Tony P. gives, of the doctor on the United flight, and the Montana assault, I would ask the following. Marty, you assumed, before the doctor’s injuries made it clear how disproportionate the force used was on the United flight, and before the Fox crew’s evidence on the Montana assault was widely enough disseminated, that in both cases in your opinion “the authorities” were in the right of it. How do you account for this? Would you say that you are in some sense an authoritarian, or at least sympathetic to the authoritarian mindset?

  196. But pending Tony P’s reply, I would just say this. I’ve been very aware, in the last thread and this, while debating Marty’s views, that he seems to have an automatic reflex in the first instance to believe whatever version of events is put out by “the authorities”, whoever they may be in any situation, and before evidence or more details emerge. Regarding the examples Tony P. gives, of the doctor on the United flight, and the Montana assault, I would ask the following. Marty, you assumed, before the doctor’s injuries made it clear how disproportionate the force used was on the United flight, and before the Fox crew’s evidence on the Montana assault was widely enough disseminated, that in both cases in your opinion “the authorities” were in the right of it. How do you account for this? Would you say that you are in some sense an authoritarian, or at least sympathetic to the authoritarian mindset?

  197. He is not competent at the political gamesmanship
    Unfortunately for him, and for us, “political gamesmanship” – i.e., persuasion, building consensus, constructive negotiation, and when necessary outflanking the folks who oppose you – is the gig.
    It’s what political leadership is.
    He’s no longer the CEO of the family real estate / TV reality show / brand marketing business. He’s the POTUS.
    The people he has to deal with now aren’t impressed by the gold-plated toilet. They expect competence, and he’s not bringing it.
    He’s failing. And he’s not failing because people are “picking on him”, persevering and succeeding in the face of criticism is also part of the gig. It’s what every single POTUS – every single leader – is expected to do.
    He’s failing because he’s not qualified to do the job. Manifestly.
    And if that’s as far as it goes, we’ll be very, very, very lucky.

  198. He is not competent at the political gamesmanship
    Unfortunately for him, and for us, “political gamesmanship” – i.e., persuasion, building consensus, constructive negotiation, and when necessary outflanking the folks who oppose you – is the gig.
    It’s what political leadership is.
    He’s no longer the CEO of the family real estate / TV reality show / brand marketing business. He’s the POTUS.
    The people he has to deal with now aren’t impressed by the gold-plated toilet. They expect competence, and he’s not bringing it.
    He’s failing. And he’s not failing because people are “picking on him”, persevering and succeeding in the face of criticism is also part of the gig. It’s what every single POTUS – every single leader – is expected to do.
    He’s failing because he’s not qualified to do the job. Manifestly.
    And if that’s as far as it goes, we’ll be very, very, very lucky.

  199. OMG, Tony P was right. Marty actually said that Obama killed a Supreme. WTF were you thinking, Marty, and do you still think it?

  200. OMG, Tony P was right. Marty actually said that Obama killed a Supreme. WTF were you thinking, Marty, and do you still think it?

  201. GftNC,
    I have not changed my mind much on either of the two events described. The United flight or the Congressman’s overreaction. In both cases the clearly bad behavior of the “victim” was their responsibility and a fundamental problem in our society today is peoples lack of empathy for those who are forced to be the “bad guys” in the United case, and those who overreact to clear provocation in the reporters case. That’s not authoritarian its basic values, if you are an ass then you don’t get to cry foul when someone has to drag you from the plane.
    Its less clear in the reporters case but still no one has said he didn’t get told the candidate wouldn’t see him, ignore them, go into a room he clearly was not supposed to be in and harass the candidate until the candidate got pissed and overreacted. So I don’t think the reporter gets a pass.
    I am sympathetic to people who are somehow now expected to enforce, particularly in the United case, the rules but then told they should have simply let the asshat get away with it. So then the next person gets away with it until there is no respect for other people left.
    So I think the problem is so little basic respect for others. The doctor literally taunted them by daring them to drag him off the plane.

  202. GftNC,
    I have not changed my mind much on either of the two events described. The United flight or the Congressman’s overreaction. In both cases the clearly bad behavior of the “victim” was their responsibility and a fundamental problem in our society today is peoples lack of empathy for those who are forced to be the “bad guys” in the United case, and those who overreact to clear provocation in the reporters case. That’s not authoritarian its basic values, if you are an ass then you don’t get to cry foul when someone has to drag you from the plane.
    Its less clear in the reporters case but still no one has said he didn’t get told the candidate wouldn’t see him, ignore them, go into a room he clearly was not supposed to be in and harass the candidate until the candidate got pissed and overreacted. So I don’t think the reporter gets a pass.
    I am sympathetic to people who are somehow now expected to enforce, particularly in the United case, the rules but then told they should have simply let the asshat get away with it. So then the next person gets away with it until there is no respect for other people left.
    So I think the problem is so little basic respect for others. The doctor literally taunted them by daring them to drag him off the plane.

  203. GftNC, It was pretty tongue in cheek, as that was a meme at the time. However, under the same circumstance no one here would doubt that Trump did it for a second.

  204. GftNC, It was pretty tongue in cheek, as that was a meme at the time. However, under the same circumstance no one here would doubt that Trump did it for a second.

  205. However, under the same circumstance no one here would doubt that Trump did it for a second.
    Was that also tongue in cheek?

  206. However, under the same circumstance no one here would doubt that Trump did it for a second.
    Was that also tongue in cheek?

  207. GftNC: OMG, Tony P was right.
    Now, now, GftNC. First, is it really an OMG moment when Tony P is right? Second, however did you figure out that Marty was the “person” I asked you to imagine knowing? 🙂
    –TP

  208. GftNC: OMG, Tony P was right.
    Now, now, GftNC. First, is it really an OMG moment when Tony P is right? Second, however did you figure out that Marty was the “person” I asked you to imagine knowing? 🙂
    –TP

  209. Because the constant barrage of unnecessary handwringing and accusations is designed for the purpose of preventing any of the Republican agenda being enacted.
    I would tend to disagree about the “unnecessary” part, but that’s how it goes. Have we already forgotten EMAILS! and the never-ending Benganzi hearings?
    The f%ckers couldn’t even generate smoke, much less find a fire.
    If you are of the opinion that Trump is manifestly unsuited for the office, this ceaseless drumbeat is off the charts-necessary.
    As for preventing the GOP agenda, not so much. The GOP seems fully capable of preventing it all on their own. That is a good thing.
    The only question is the extent of the damage to be done by Trump, and how it can be repaired. So far, there are no really serious policy changes, but he is definitely damaging the ability of the federal government ability to carry out its functions. Meat. Bone.

  210. Because the constant barrage of unnecessary handwringing and accusations is designed for the purpose of preventing any of the Republican agenda being enacted.
    I would tend to disagree about the “unnecessary” part, but that’s how it goes. Have we already forgotten EMAILS! and the never-ending Benganzi hearings?
    The f%ckers couldn’t even generate smoke, much less find a fire.
    If you are of the opinion that Trump is manifestly unsuited for the office, this ceaseless drumbeat is off the charts-necessary.
    As for preventing the GOP agenda, not so much. The GOP seems fully capable of preventing it all on their own. That is a good thing.
    The only question is the extent of the damage to be done by Trump, and how it can be repaired. So far, there are no really serious policy changes, but he is definitely damaging the ability of the federal government ability to carry out its functions. Meat. Bone.

  211. Once again russell beats me to it…

    Unfortunately for him, and for us, “political gamesmanship” – i.e., persuasion, building consensus, constructive negotiation, and when necessary outflanking the folks who oppose you – is the gig.
    It’s what political leadership is.

    Let me just point out that a lot of people criticized Obama for exactly this failing. I don’t agree with the criticism of Obama; like so many complaints about what Democrats do I’d say it was projection.

  212. Once again russell beats me to it…

    Unfortunately for him, and for us, “political gamesmanship” – i.e., persuasion, building consensus, constructive negotiation, and when necessary outflanking the folks who oppose you – is the gig.
    It’s what political leadership is.

    Let me just point out that a lot of people criticized Obama for exactly this failing. I don’t agree with the criticism of Obama; like so many complaints about what Democrats do I’d say it was projection.

  213. Tony P: 😉
    Marty: thank you for your replies, and thank God it was tongue in cheek! Otherwise you would have seemed to be going completely mad (Alex Jones type mad). I don’t think you’re right that we would have believed it of Trump, but this is hypothetical so we will never know. As far as the difficulties experienced by people trying to enforce the rules is concerned, I see your point but I believe it is part of their job not to overreact, but in fact to react proportionately. What they did constitutes a fail, however much of an asshat the doctor was or was not being. But I completely disagree about the Montana business, and I bet you would too if it was a Democratic candidate beating up someone from Fox News for example. I don’t know if you are able to conduct a thought-experiment to this effect. If not, this too is a hypothetical, so I guess, again, we’ll never know.

  214. Tony P: 😉
    Marty: thank you for your replies, and thank God it was tongue in cheek! Otherwise you would have seemed to be going completely mad (Alex Jones type mad). I don’t think you’re right that we would have believed it of Trump, but this is hypothetical so we will never know. As far as the difficulties experienced by people trying to enforce the rules is concerned, I see your point but I believe it is part of their job not to overreact, but in fact to react proportionately. What they did constitutes a fail, however much of an asshat the doctor was or was not being. But I completely disagree about the Montana business, and I bet you would too if it was a Democratic candidate beating up someone from Fox News for example. I don’t know if you are able to conduct a thought-experiment to this effect. If not, this too is a hypothetical, so I guess, again, we’ll never know.

  215. The notion that saying Obama killed Scalia was “tongue in cheek” might make some sense if it was black humor coming from someone poking fun at the RW meme machine. It’s hard to take it as innocent in any way coming from someone who wrote all the other things about Obama that Marty did in that thread.
    Memorial Day high sentiments notwithstanding, here we are again.
    At a certain point countering the points you make ends up making the rest of us look foolish, too.
    What russell said. As always, words to live by.

  216. The notion that saying Obama killed Scalia was “tongue in cheek” might make some sense if it was black humor coming from someone poking fun at the RW meme machine. It’s hard to take it as innocent in any way coming from someone who wrote all the other things about Obama that Marty did in that thread.
    Memorial Day high sentiments notwithstanding, here we are again.
    At a certain point countering the points you make ends up making the rest of us look foolish, too.
    What russell said. As always, words to live by.

  217. Marty: That’s not authoritarian its basic values
    Basic authoritarian values, for sure. Basic democratic values, not so clear.
    Whatever happened to “I’m a citizen and a taxpayer, and I know my rights!” as Dobie Gillis’s dad used to shout at officious “asshats” who were “forced to be the bad guys” toward him? Would Mr. Gillis have meekly obeyed some rent-a-cops trying to bully him out of his seat? Would he have meekly deferred to a would-be congresscritter’s refusal to answer a simple question?
    A self-governing society can’t work well unless “the authorities” get some deference. But neither can it work well when “the authorities” (never mind rent-a-cops or political candidates) get so much deference that they feel empowered to beat people up.
    –TP

  218. Marty: That’s not authoritarian its basic values
    Basic authoritarian values, for sure. Basic democratic values, not so clear.
    Whatever happened to “I’m a citizen and a taxpayer, and I know my rights!” as Dobie Gillis’s dad used to shout at officious “asshats” who were “forced to be the bad guys” toward him? Would Mr. Gillis have meekly obeyed some rent-a-cops trying to bully him out of his seat? Would he have meekly deferred to a would-be congresscritter’s refusal to answer a simple question?
    A self-governing society can’t work well unless “the authorities” get some deference. But neither can it work well when “the authorities” (never mind rent-a-cops or political candidates) get so much deference that they feel empowered to beat people up.
    –TP

  219. Personally, looking foolish is not my greatest fear (presumably this is very obvious!). Retreating into laagers from which only shots can be exchanged is much more dangerous. As for “tongue in cheek”, I’m prepared to believe that there are more possible ways to mean something than are immediately obvious to textual analysis.

  220. Personally, looking foolish is not my greatest fear (presumably this is very obvious!). Retreating into laagers from which only shots can be exchanged is much more dangerous. As for “tongue in cheek”, I’m prepared to believe that there are more possible ways to mean something than are immediately obvious to textual analysis.

  221. A traditional role of a president is to enhance the legacy of his predecessor. Trump appears destined to fill the less common role of enhancing the legacies of his successors.
    Some of us see Trump as not a complete loss in that, while everyone is focused on Trump antics, some policy, legal and regulatory changes we approve of will occur.

  222. A traditional role of a president is to enhance the legacy of his predecessor. Trump appears destined to fill the less common role of enhancing the legacies of his successors.
    Some of us see Trump as not a complete loss in that, while everyone is focused on Trump antics, some policy, legal and regulatory changes we approve of will occur.

  223. “Would Mr. Gillis have meekly obeyed some rent-a-cops trying to bully him out of his seat?”
    No, when told his seat had been double booked by the flight attendant he would have exited the plane, perhaps grudgingly, but would not have required rent-a-cops to remove him. I mean, when did it become ok to do these things?

  224. “Would Mr. Gillis have meekly obeyed some rent-a-cops trying to bully him out of his seat?”
    No, when told his seat had been double booked by the flight attendant he would have exited the plane, perhaps grudgingly, but would not have required rent-a-cops to remove him. I mean, when did it become ok to do these things?

  225. United’s mistakes were seating the passengers before deciding they didn’t have enough seats. And, then, not offering enough money until they had enough seats.
    By forcing passengers to give up seats after being seated, they may have been, at least technically, in violation of the contract.

  226. United’s mistakes were seating the passengers before deciding they didn’t have enough seats. And, then, not offering enough money until they had enough seats.
    By forcing passengers to give up seats after being seated, they may have been, at least technically, in violation of the contract.

  227. Personally, looking foolish is not my greatest fear
    I took russell’s framing as shorthand for a complex dynamic.
    Constantly being bombarded with other people’s agendas (being trolled online, whether deliberately or not; being inundated with advertising everywhere I look; having to answer questions every time I check out of a store about whether I want to join their discount club, buy a bigger coffee for only thirty cents more, or what the fuck ever) — chips away at my life, which is getting shorter by the minute.
    One of the best pieces of advice I’ve ever been given was: “Don’t bite hooks.”
    YMMV, and I mean that respectfully.

  228. Personally, looking foolish is not my greatest fear
    I took russell’s framing as shorthand for a complex dynamic.
    Constantly being bombarded with other people’s agendas (being trolled online, whether deliberately or not; being inundated with advertising everywhere I look; having to answer questions every time I check out of a store about whether I want to join their discount club, buy a bigger coffee for only thirty cents more, or what the fuck ever) — chips away at my life, which is getting shorter by the minute.
    One of the best pieces of advice I’ve ever been given was: “Don’t bite hooks.”
    YMMV, and I mean that respectfully.

  229. Absolutely fair enough, JanieM, and everyone is entitled to their own attitude as to how much they want to engage. I have nothing but respect for you, and don’t doubt your reciprocity.
    “Don’t bite hooks” seems like excellent advice to me too. Thank you for it.

  230. Absolutely fair enough, JanieM, and everyone is entitled to their own attitude as to how much they want to engage. I have nothing but respect for you, and don’t doubt your reciprocity.
    “Don’t bite hooks” seems like excellent advice to me too. Thank you for it.

  231. And by the way, GftNC, I am in awe of the way you somehow manage to engage *and* disagree without being disagreeable. It’s a rare talent, and I sure don’t have it.
    Carry on. 🙂

  232. And by the way, GftNC, I am in awe of the way you somehow manage to engage *and* disagree without being disagreeable. It’s a rare talent, and I sure don’t have it.
    Carry on. 🙂

  235. Another useful aphorism: Never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and the pig likes it.

  236. Another useful aphorism: Never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and the pig likes it.

  237. “Because the constant barrage of unnecessary handwringing and accusations is designed for the purpose of preventing any of the Republican agenda being enacted.”
    I don’t think the barrage of self-inflicted damage is the cause of the failure of the R majority in the House and Senate to be able to pass their legislation.
    I think the problem is that Repubican ideas suck so bad that Republican pols are afriad to translate their ideas into reality. It is one thing to spend years ranting and raving about how terrible Obamacare is, but something else entirely to actually dismantle it. It is one thing to rant and rave for years about how we need smaller government, and fewer big government programs, but something else altogether to defund the EPA and Medicaid. It is one thing to cut tazes, keep spending ,and place the deficit that results on Obama but something else altogether to cut taxes (for the rich AGAIN), spend on big ticket items, create another deficit—and blame who?
    The Republican agenda sucks. It is ideological, has been promoted based on lies, has devastating consequences for the Republican base and cannot be translated into reality without consequences a the voting booth.
    THe Repubicans need more gerrymandering and voter suppression laws before they will be able to pass their agenda.

  238. “Because the constant barrage of unnecessary handwringing and accusations is designed for the purpose of preventing any of the Republican agenda being enacted.”
    I don’t think the barrage of self-inflicted damage is the cause of the failure of the R majority in the House and Senate to be able to pass their legislation.
    I think the problem is that Repubican ideas suck so bad that Republican pols are afriad to translate their ideas into reality. It is one thing to spend years ranting and raving about how terrible Obamacare is, but something else entirely to actually dismantle it. It is one thing to rant and rave for years about how we need smaller government, and fewer big government programs, but something else altogether to defund the EPA and Medicaid. It is one thing to cut tazes, keep spending ,and place the deficit that results on Obama but something else altogether to cut taxes (for the rich AGAIN), spend on big ticket items, create another deficit—and blame who?
    The Republican agenda sucks. It is ideological, has been promoted based on lies, has devastating consequences for the Republican base and cannot be translated into reality without consequences a the voting booth.
    THe Repubicans need more gerrymandering and voter suppression laws before they will be able to pass their agenda.

  241. Perhaps we should start a discussion on this one by agreeing to some common factual understandings:
    No, when told his seat had been double booked…
    The seat was not “double booked”.
    By forcing passengers to give up seats after being seated, they may have been, at least technically, in violation of the contract.
    Yes, “technically” and “may” are carrying a big load here. As I am given to understand, once seated, per the “contract”, that’s it.
    If you know something different, please so advise….the both of you.
    Thanks.

  242. Perhaps we should start a discussion on this one by agreeing to some common factual understandings:
    No, when told his seat had been double booked…
    The seat was not “double booked”.
    By forcing passengers to give up seats after being seated, they may have been, at least technically, in violation of the contract.
    Yes, “technically” and “may” are carrying a big load here. As I am given to understand, once seated, per the “contract”, that’s it.
    If you know something different, please so advise….the both of you.
    Thanks.

  243. No wonkie, the Republican agenda is based on creating a world where most people have jobs, good wages and lower taxes that are plenty to fund the safety net required for the rest. It is hard to enact that agenda when the Democrats have convinced so many people that getting free food, free care, free housing is a right of being born on this earth. Regardless of whether it is feasible for so few to pay for so many.
    So yes, it’s hard. It’s hard to convince people that creating 23 Million more working people with insurance is better than taxing enough to pay for 23 Million more people on free insurance, or that many more people end up insured that way.
    Likely everyone.

  244. No wonkie, the Republican agenda is based on creating a world where most people have jobs, good wages and lower taxes that are plenty to fund the safety net required for the rest. It is hard to enact that agenda when the Democrats have convinced so many people that getting free food, free care, free housing is a right of being born on this earth. Regardless of whether it is feasible for so few to pay for so many.
    So yes, it’s hard. It’s hard to convince people that creating 23 Million more working people with insurance is better than taxing enough to pay for 23 Million more people on free insurance, or that many more people end up insured that way.
    Likely everyone.

  245. Marty, I have to say that my view of what Republicans should stand for lines up pretty well with your first sentence.
    But I find absolutely no sign of any of that in the agenda of Congressional Republicans. None. Zero. Unless you consider reliance on magic and bad math to constitute a viable agenda….

  246. Marty, I have to say that my view of what Republicans should stand for lines up pretty well with your first sentence.
    But I find absolutely no sign of any of that in the agenda of Congressional Republicans. None. Zero. Unless you consider reliance on magic and bad math to constitute a viable agenda….

  247. I’m sorry, Marty, but if that was their agenda, they’d just g ahead and do it. But cutting taxes for rich people doesn’t create jobs. That does not work in the real world. And Republican oppose good wages–they are actively anti-union. Cruz is planning to introduce national level right to work for less legislation. And no, they cannot cut taxes and still fund the safety net. They are not even trying to do that. The budget under discussion includes massive cuts to Medicaid and there is an effort under way to demonize as lazy people who are on SS disability. Sen Cotton’s remarks, for example. And then there is the track record: every R in the House and most of the Rs in the Senate voted to turn Medicare into a voucher system. If the Republicans had a positive agenda that would serve the interests of their voters, they would pass it. Their dilemma is that their ideas are so awful that they can’t afford to move out of the realm of rhetoric and into the real world. As for not being willing to support insurance for working people who can’t afford it–that kind of amoral selfishness is indeed fundamental to Congressional R (thought they dont have any problem using tax dollars to give them selves insurance). It is part of the Ayn Rand Social Darwinist philosophy of the Republican party that voters including their voters who can;t afford insurance should jut die or go bankrupt, so sad, too bad. And they call themselves Christians!

  248. I’m sorry, Marty, but if that was their agenda, they’d just g ahead and do it. But cutting taxes for rich people doesn’t create jobs. That does not work in the real world. And Republican oppose good wages–they are actively anti-union. Cruz is planning to introduce national level right to work for less legislation. And no, they cannot cut taxes and still fund the safety net. They are not even trying to do that. The budget under discussion includes massive cuts to Medicaid and there is an effort under way to demonize as lazy people who are on SS disability. Sen Cotton’s remarks, for example. And then there is the track record: every R in the House and most of the Rs in the Senate voted to turn Medicare into a voucher system. If the Republicans had a positive agenda that would serve the interests of their voters, they would pass it. Their dilemma is that their ideas are so awful that they can’t afford to move out of the realm of rhetoric and into the real world. As for not being willing to support insurance for working people who can’t afford it–that kind of amoral selfishness is indeed fundamental to Congressional R (thought they dont have any problem using tax dollars to give them selves insurance). It is part of the Ayn Rand Social Darwinist philosophy of the Republican party that voters including their voters who can;t afford insurance should jut die or go bankrupt, so sad, too bad. And they call themselves Christians!

  249. White rats can be trained to push a pedal if they get a treat. No treat, they stop pushing the pedal.
    Republican voters vote for for tax cuts (for themselves) and jobs (for themselves). They never get that from Republican politicians but keep voting for them anyway.
    I guess that’s the difference between Republican voters and white rats.

  250. White rats can be trained to push a pedal if they get a treat. No treat, they stop pushing the pedal.
    Republican voters vote for for tax cuts (for themselves) and jobs (for themselves). They never get that from Republican politicians but keep voting for them anyway.
    I guess that’s the difference between Republican voters and white rats.

  251. Bad math, I don’t know wj. I don’t think we get good math from anyplace. For eight years we have heard about the remarkable recovery with gdp growth that averages about 1.5%.
    Before this recession we used to assume 3% and argue if policies could push us to 4 or 5, at least temporarily. But pretty much every budget assumed at least three over time, now that is considered not only unrealistic but “lying”.
    The CBO estimates for the ACA estimated short term flattening of both healthcare and insurance increases, but always estimated those to accelerate toward the end of ten years. So now that starts to kick in and the Republicans are undermining the ACA.
    It gets frustrating because any long term solution requires higher short term deficits, which Republicans don’t want to admit to, and the growth that will generate is denied by the Democrats.
    So everyone sits around talking about the good part of their plan but never the downside or the long term gain of the other sides ideas.
    There is a place for consolidating the safety net into Medicare, but that doesn’t mean that is the best way for everyone to get their insurance, or that we need to displace three or four million jobs so that someone can say we are like the rest of the world.
    If that expansion causes a short term deficit increase then the best way to make up for that is to throw a little more investment on top of it to stimulate growth. one never gets less but it should get less as a percentage of GDP and, maybe even just not grow because fewer people need the safety net.
    Means testing things like food stamps isn’t some insult to the people who need it, it is an assurance to the average working person that there will be a safety net when they need it, but don’t come looking for a handout if you don’t.
    All of these are ideas in the Congressional discussions, but we the people are so interested in demonizing each other we cant let them do the work to make a deal. Do both, try one, push some things back to the states.
    Republicans moved us miless down this road over the last eight years, the Democrats responded badly and now are just emulating the bad behavior because somehow they decided that is what worked, not the ideas that every Republican, non Trumpite, I know prayed would be buried in that bandwagon.
    And if you listen close you hear those people supporting Ryan and McConnell who are herding cats toward a middle ground, but it is just too easy to demonize them for that to make very fast progress.
    In the meantime we endure a daily cacophony of campaign politics and tribal retribution to ensure nothing gets done.
    So no, I don’t agree that the congressional republicans don’t stand for those things, I don’t agree that they aren’t trying under the most difficult times in my lifetime to make progress.
    I also don’t agree that the solution is to get rid of Trump because he isn’t a politician. If he’s guilty of something there are lots of people looking at it, but every day the leak factory feeds the headline factory with nothing news to just create the drumbeat and prevent any progress.
    So either karma sucks and the US people should pay the price or some group should get together and lead. because as Micahel J. Fox said eloquently in the American President
    “People want leadership, Mr. President, and in the absence of genuine leadership, they’ll listen to anyone who steps up to the microphone. They want leadership. They’re so thirsty for it they’ll crawl through the desert toward a mirage, and when they discover there’s no water, they’ll drink the sand. ”
    and the Presidents response was prophetic:
    ” Lewis, we’ve had presidents who were beloved, who couldn’t find a coherent sentence with two hands and a flashlight. People don’t drink the sand because they’re thirsty. They drink the sand because they don’t know the difference. ”
    Maybe so, but in the absence of leadership you get Trump.

  252. Bad math, I don’t know wj. I don’t think we get good math from anyplace. For eight years we have heard about the remarkable recovery with gdp growth that averages about 1.5%.
    Before this recession we used to assume 3% and argue if policies could push us to 4 or 5, at least temporarily. But pretty much every budget assumed at least three over time, now that is considered not only unrealistic but “lying”.
    The CBO estimates for the ACA estimated short term flattening of both healthcare and insurance increases, but always estimated those to accelerate toward the end of ten years. So now that starts to kick in and the Republicans are undermining the ACA.
    It gets frustrating because any long term solution requires higher short term deficits, which Republicans don’t want to admit to, and the growth that will generate is denied by the Democrats.
    So everyone sits around talking about the good part of their plan but never the downside or the long term gain of the other sides ideas.
    There is a place for consolidating the safety net into Medicare, but that doesn’t mean that is the best way for everyone to get their insurance, or that we need to displace three or four million jobs so that someone can say we are like the rest of the world.
    If that expansion causes a short term deficit increase then the best way to make up for that is to throw a little more investment on top of it to stimulate growth. one never gets less but it should get less as a percentage of GDP and, maybe even just not grow because fewer people need the safety net.
    Means testing things like food stamps isn’t some insult to the people who need it, it is an assurance to the average working person that there will be a safety net when they need it, but don’t come looking for a handout if you don’t.
    All of these are ideas in the Congressional discussions, but we the people are so interested in demonizing each other we cant let them do the work to make a deal. Do both, try one, push some things back to the states.
    Republicans moved us miless down this road over the last eight years, the Democrats responded badly and now are just emulating the bad behavior because somehow they decided that is what worked, not the ideas that every Republican, non Trumpite, I know prayed would be buried in that bandwagon.
    And if you listen close you hear those people supporting Ryan and McConnell who are herding cats toward a middle ground, but it is just too easy to demonize them for that to make very fast progress.
    In the meantime we endure a daily cacophony of campaign politics and tribal retribution to ensure nothing gets done.
    So no, I don’t agree that the congressional republicans don’t stand for those things, I don’t agree that they aren’t trying under the most difficult times in my lifetime to make progress.
    I also don’t agree that the solution is to get rid of Trump because he isn’t a politician. If he’s guilty of something there are lots of people looking at it, but every day the leak factory feeds the headline factory with nothing news to just create the drumbeat and prevent any progress.
    So either karma sucks and the US people should pay the price or some group should get together and lead. because as Micahel J. Fox said eloquently in the American President
    “People want leadership, Mr. President, and in the absence of genuine leadership, they’ll listen to anyone who steps up to the microphone. They want leadership. They’re so thirsty for it they’ll crawl through the desert toward a mirage, and when they discover there’s no water, they’ll drink the sand. ”
    and the Presidents response was prophetic:
    ” Lewis, we’ve had presidents who were beloved, who couldn’t find a coherent sentence with two hands and a flashlight. People don’t drink the sand because they’re thirsty. They drink the sand because they don’t know the difference. ”
    Maybe so, but in the absence of leadership you get Trump.

  253. Bad math, I don’t know wj. I don’t think we get good math from anyplace.
    But rarely (make that never) do we see a formal budget proposal which simply includes the same $2 trillion in two different places, in order to make the numbers work. I’ve seen budgets with ridiculous assumptions, of course. But this is a whole new level of bad math.

  254. Bad math, I don’t know wj. I don’t think we get good math from anyplace.
    But rarely (make that never) do we see a formal budget proposal which simply includes the same $2 trillion in two different places, in order to make the numbers work. I’ve seen budgets with ridiculous assumptions, of course. But this is a whole new level of bad math.

  255. Yeah no not really. You know, every budget from Obama was DOA by both parties. Presidential budgets overreach and set direction.
    The House makes the budget.

  256. Yeah no not really. You know, every budget from Obama was DOA by both parties. Presidential budgets overreach and set direction.
    The House makes the budget.

  257. Trump’s proposed budget is a letter to Santa Claus. And worth about as much.
    Presidents propose. Congress dispose.

  258. Trump’s proposed budget is a letter to Santa Claus. And worth about as much.
    Presidents propose. Congress dispose.

  259. apparently, 50% of Americans have less than $400 in savings. I’m sure there’s some voodoo in that quotable statistic, and I’m also sure there’s a lot of truth.
    I’ve been listening to (R)’s tell me that the secret to making America great is to remove impediments to production. lower taxes, remove or relax regulations. unleash the job creators and let them do their thing.
    what I observe is that, when we do that, the “job creators” do their utmost to cut as many jobs as possible, and shed as many obligations to whoever is left as they can.
    so I conclude that the (R) agenda is not wholesome. it might, in fact, lead to faster growth, that’s arguable.
    it will not lead to anything like widespread prosperity. I believe it will, inexorably, lead to the immiseration of people whose contribution to economic life is productive labor.
    and that’s leaving aside the harm it will do to the world we live in, this precious and irreplaceable gift that makes our very existence feasible at all.
    I don’t know if the (D)’s have a better plan or not, but at least their program is not broadly and plainly cruel in its tangible effects. so, in general, they get my support.

  260. apparently, 50% of Americans have less than $400 in savings. I’m sure there’s some voodoo in that quotable statistic, and I’m also sure there’s a lot of truth.
    I’ve been listening to (R)’s tell me that the secret to making America great is to remove impediments to production. lower taxes, remove or relax regulations. unleash the job creators and let them do their thing.
    what I observe is that, when we do that, the “job creators” do their utmost to cut as many jobs as possible, and shed as many obligations to whoever is left as they can.
    so I conclude that the (R) agenda is not wholesome. it might, in fact, lead to faster growth, that’s arguable.
    it will not lead to anything like widespread prosperity. I believe it will, inexorably, lead to the immiseration of people whose contribution to economic life is productive labor.
    and that’s leaving aside the harm it will do to the world we live in, this precious and irreplaceable gift that makes our very existence feasible at all.
    I don’t know if the (D)’s have a better plan or not, but at least their program is not broadly and plainly cruel in its tangible effects. so, in general, they get my support.

  263. Presidential budgets overreach and set direction.
    Trump’s double-counting budget proposal tells us that either the Trump team is very dumb, or that the Trump team thinks the American public is very dumb. or, of course, both.
    (yes yes, Obama remains the tyrantiest tyrant to ever tyrrannize the citizenry.)

  264. Presidential budgets overreach and set direction.
    Trump’s double-counting budget proposal tells us that either the Trump team is very dumb, or that the Trump team thinks the American public is very dumb. or, of course, both.
    (yes yes, Obama remains the tyrantiest tyrant to ever tyrrannize the citizenry.)

  265. In this case cleek I could have said every one of Bushes budgets was DOA also, it is just how the process works.
    Hopefully the House will get to have committee meetings and formulate a budget the old fashioned way, and even perhaps pass one.

  266. In this case cleek I could have said every one of Bushes budgets was DOA also, it is just how the process works.
    Hopefully the House will get to have committee meetings and formulate a budget the old fashioned way, and even perhaps pass one.

  269. Means testing things like food stamps….
    I’m not sure what your point is here. Eligibility for SNAP is indeed means tested, or were you trying to make some other point?
    But if you want to get past cheap moralizing (being poor is a sign of moral failure) then apply this principle in a principle way….
    If you have a net worth above a certain level, you don’t qualify for the mortgage interest deduction.
    If your income is above a certain level, capital gains are taxed as ordinary income.
    and etc.
    But not “letting somebody take advantage” works only one way, I guess.
    Means testing is just bullshit harassment of people who have nothing to begin with, and harassing them is the point of it all, as cramped and stingy moral principles are harnessed to cramped and stingy public policy.

  270. Means testing things like food stamps….
    I’m not sure what your point is here. Eligibility for SNAP is indeed means tested, or were you trying to make some other point?
    But if you want to get past cheap moralizing (being poor is a sign of moral failure) then apply this principle in a principle way….
    If you have a net worth above a certain level, you don’t qualify for the mortgage interest deduction.
    If your income is above a certain level, capital gains are taxed as ordinary income.
    and etc.
    But not “letting somebody take advantage” works only one way, I guess.
    Means testing is just bullshit harassment of people who have nothing to begin with, and harassing them is the point of it all, as cramped and stingy moral principles are harnessed to cramped and stingy public policy.

  277. I haven’t seen cousin Vlad and Marty in the same room together but the ventriloquism is impressive:
    “If he’s guilty of something there are lots of people looking at it, but every day the leak factory feeds the headline factory with nothing news to just create the drumbeat and prevent any progress.”
    and
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/putin-gop-language-russia-investigation
    I mean, Latvia is STILL in the EU and a NATO member, so let’s get a move on.
    “Disappear those leakers” leaks Chief Leaker Donald trump.
    Russell wrote: “At a certain point countering the points you make ends up making the rest of us look foolish, too.”
    Then I must be in Fool’s Paradise.

  278. I haven’t seen cousin Vlad and Marty in the same room together but the ventriloquism is impressive:
    “If he’s guilty of something there are lots of people looking at it, but every day the leak factory feeds the headline factory with nothing news to just create the drumbeat and prevent any progress.”
    and
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/putin-gop-language-russia-investigation
    I mean, Latvia is STILL in the EU and a NATO member, so let’s get a move on.
    “Disappear those leakers” leaks Chief Leaker Donald trump.
    Russell wrote: “At a certain point countering the points you make ends up making the rest of us look foolish, too.”
    Then I must be in Fool’s Paradise.

  279. …the Republican agenda is based on creating a world where most people have jobs, good wages and lower taxes that are plenty to fund the safety net required for the rest.
    Earth to Paul Ryan, we have a problem.

  280. …the Republican agenda is based on creating a world where most people have jobs, good wages and lower taxes that are plenty to fund the safety net required for the rest.
    Earth to Paul Ryan, we have a problem.

  283. Perhaps the most pernicious manifestation of how Republicans are imitating their master is in their vilification of the media and embrace of political violence. Montana’s Republican congressional candidate, Greg Gianforte, assaulted reporter Ben Jacobs of the Guardian on May 24, the day before a special election, for having the temerity to ask him about his views on health care. Gianforte’s spokesman than lied about the incident, blaming Jacob’s supposedly “aggressive behavior” for his pummeling.
    The conservative response? Pro forma condemnation of Gianforte followed by a de facto defense of his conduct.
    …
    If you’re wondering how the Republican Party, and the conservative movement it is associated with, could have sunk so low as to justify an assault on a journalist doing his constitutionally protected job, you can find the answer in the Oval Office. Trump has called the press “the enemy of the American People,” and vilifies the “Fake News Media” on a near-daily basis for telling the truth about his administration.
    Trump, moreover, spent his campaign inciting violence at his rallies. “I’ll beat the crap out of you,” Trump told a protester in Dayton, Ohio. “Part of the problem … is nobody wants to hurt each other anymore,” he said in St. Louis. “The audience hit back. That’s what we need a little bit more of,” he said of a rally in Fayetteville, North Carolina. A federal judge recently ruled in a civil suit that it is plausible to assert that injuries suffered by demonstrators at a Trump rally in Louisville were the “direct and proximate result” of his incendiary words.

    Max Boot (of all people) thinks the GOP has become a party of assholes.
    this is the first time i find myself agreeing with Max Boot.

  284. Perhaps the most pernicious manifestation of how Republicans are imitating their master is in their vilification of the media and embrace of political violence. Montana’s Republican congressional candidate, Greg Gianforte, assaulted reporter Ben Jacobs of the Guardian on May 24, the day before a special election, for having the temerity to ask him about his views on health care. Gianforte’s spokesman than lied about the incident, blaming Jacob’s supposedly “aggressive behavior” for his pummeling.
    The conservative response? Pro forma condemnation of Gianforte followed by a de facto defense of his conduct.
    …
    If you’re wondering how the Republican Party, and the conservative movement it is associated with, could have sunk so low as to justify an assault on a journalist doing his constitutionally protected job, you can find the answer in the Oval Office. Trump has called the press “the enemy of the American People,” and vilifies the “Fake News Media” on a near-daily basis for telling the truth about his administration.
    Trump, moreover, spent his campaign inciting violence at his rallies. “I’ll beat the crap out of you,” Trump told a protester in Dayton, Ohio. “Part of the problem … is nobody wants to hurt each other anymore,” he said in St. Louis. “The audience hit back. That’s what we need a little bit more of,” he said of a rally in Fayetteville, North Carolina. A federal judge recently ruled in a civil suit that it is plausible to assert that injuries suffered by demonstrators at a Trump rally in Louisville were the “direct and proximate result” of his incendiary words.

    Max Boot (of all people) thinks the GOP has become a party of assholes.
    this is the first time i find myself agreeing with Max Boot.

  285. I want to say, “Wake up, sheeple!” to my Trump-supporting friends, but I don’t want to hurt their feelings. They are such precious snowflakes, you know.

  286. I want to say, “Wake up, sheeple!” to my Trump-supporting friends, but I don’t want to hurt their feelings. They are such precious snowflakes, you know.

  289. Not delurking, but lj did say open thread, so here’s something that adds actual statistics to a topic we were talking about not long ago:
    The air rage increase is not just anecdotal. The most recent figures from the International Air Transport Association found a 16.5 percent increase in air rage from 2014 to 2015.
    From here.

  290. Not delurking, but lj did say open thread, so here’s something that adds actual statistics to a topic we were talking about not long ago:
    The air rage increase is not just anecdotal. The most recent figures from the International Air Transport Association found a 16.5 percent increase in air rage from 2014 to 2015.
    From here.

  291. Another exploitation of this being an open thread.
    As we are aware, unions in the private sector are a fading force. But here’s a suggestion that they could revitalize themselves by adapting to the way young people organize their lives today:
    Unions and the power of social media

  292. Another exploitation of this being an open thread.
    As we are aware, unions in the private sector are a fading force. But here’s a suggestion that they could revitalize themselves by adapting to the way young people organize their lives today:
    Unions and the power of social media

  293. I wonder if a more modern form of “union”, closer in organization and spirit to a “professional organization” (think IEEE, frex) might make more sense currently. Obvious member benefits would be in stuff like health/life/professional/retirement insurance, and covering members even if they change employer.
    The problem, a BIG problem, is that such organization would not normally have an ability to be part of wage negotiations. And the power disparity in wage negotiations is one of the major reasons for workers benefiting from union representation.
    Not suggesting a solution, just wondering if there might be a direction toward a solution.

  294. I wonder if a more modern form of “union”, closer in organization and spirit to a “professional organization” (think IEEE, frex) might make more sense currently. Obvious member benefits would be in stuff like health/life/professional/retirement insurance, and covering members even if they change employer.
    The problem, a BIG problem, is that such organization would not normally have an ability to be part of wage negotiations. And the power disparity in wage negotiations is one of the major reasons for workers benefiting from union representation.
    Not suggesting a solution, just wondering if there might be a direction toward a solution.

  297. The ban on laptops is, at its heart, all about security theater. Actual security is, at best, an afterthought justification. As such, being irritating isn’t a flaw; for those who came up with it, it’s somewhere between a virtue and the whole point of the exercise.

  298. The ban on laptops is, at its heart, all about security theater. Actual security is, at best, an afterthought justification. As such, being irritating isn’t a flaw; for those who came up with it, it’s somewhere between a virtue and the whole point of the exercise.

  301. Ah, but if a Li ion battery catches fire in the cargo hold and crashes a plane TSA can just shrug. If it goes boom from a terrorist then TSA gets blame. So, shift risk to where they are blameless.

  302. Ah, but if a Li ion battery catches fire in the cargo hold and crashes a plane TSA can just shrug. If it goes boom from a terrorist then TSA gets blame. So, shift risk to where they are blameless.

  305. Marty,
    JFTR, there is no evidence that cutting the top marginal tax rate from its current level (No JFK references, please. He wanted to cut the top rate from 91% to about 65%) will be any kind of stimulus to growth. Period. Full stop.

  306. Marty,
    JFTR, there is no evidence that cutting the top marginal tax rate from its current level (No JFK references, please. He wanted to cut the top rate from 91% to about 65%) will be any kind of stimulus to growth. Period. Full stop.

  307. I always found it interesting that an insanely capitalist, hierarchical and creative place like Hollywood is also one the most unionized places I know of – while it should be a libertarian’s wet dream.
    I wish we had something like that over here in the UK but our union is pretty useless – (nice people though).

  308. I always found it interesting that an insanely capitalist, hierarchical and creative place like Hollywood is also one the most unionized places I know of – while it should be a libertarian’s wet dream.
    I wish we had something like that over here in the UK but our union is pretty useless – (nice people though).

  309. byomtov,
    Agree. And not much evidence that cutting “useless red tape” (i.e. regulations) would do much in this regard either.
    In essence, the regulations are a cost of doing business. One important thing they do that often goes overlooked is the fact that, by raising costs, they capture real social costs that the “market” tends to actively ignore (i.e., market failure).
    Environmental pollution is the classic example. Job safety is another.

  310. byomtov,
    Agree. And not much evidence that cutting “useless red tape” (i.e. regulations) would do much in this regard either.
    In essence, the regulations are a cost of doing business. One important thing they do that often goes overlooked is the fact that, by raising costs, they capture real social costs that the “market” tends to actively ignore (i.e., market failure).
    Environmental pollution is the classic example. Job safety is another.

  311. ….just wondering if there might be a direction toward a solution.
    The stated policy goal of the Wagner Act was to promote collective bargaining as public policy. Since WWII we have enacted legislation that effectively undermines that goal.

  312. ….just wondering if there might be a direction toward a solution.
    The stated policy goal of the Wagner Act was to promote collective bargaining as public policy. Since WWII we have enacted legislation that effectively undermines that goal.

  313. Change of subject from the current (understandable) obsession elsewhere about the likely exit of the US from the Paris Climate Accords, but:
    Even massive for-profit companies with no religious affiliation will be able to deny birth control coverage to their female employees.
    Hopefully, this adds impetus to the efforts of the Resistance and Indivisible, and bodes well for 2018 (don’t know about Georgia 6 – where is chmatl for an update?)
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/birth-control-contraception-trump_us_592ed9e7e4b0e09b11ec93c7?bb&ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

  314. Change of subject from the current (understandable) obsession elsewhere about the likely exit of the US from the Paris Climate Accords, but:
    Even massive for-profit companies with no religious affiliation will be able to deny birth control coverage to their female employees.
    Hopefully, this adds impetus to the efforts of the Resistance and Indivisible, and bodes well for 2018 (don’t know about Georgia 6 – where is chmatl for an update?)
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/birth-control-contraception-trump_us_592ed9e7e4b0e09b11ec93c7?bb&ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

  315. bobbyp,
    One important thing they do that often goes overlooked is the fact that, by raising costs, they capture real social costs that the “market” tends to actively ignore (i.e., market failure).
    And I agree with this. One little-noted theoretical advantage of market systems is that they force those who use resources to pay the cost of the resources. Ideally, this should apply to things like clean air and water, and many other things. Regulation is quite often the best way to accomplish this.
    Try explaining that to “free-market” conservatives.

  316. bobbyp,
    One important thing they do that often goes overlooked is the fact that, by raising costs, they capture real social costs that the “market” tends to actively ignore (i.e., market failure).
    And I agree with this. One little-noted theoretical advantage of market systems is that they force those who use resources to pay the cost of the resources. Ideally, this should apply to things like clean air and water, and many other things. Regulation is quite often the best way to accomplish this.
    Try explaining that to “free-market” conservatives.

  317. A couple of points on airline overbooking…
    First, overall, it’s greatly to the benefit of both airlines and passengers, as it enables planes to be flown at much higher capacity utilisation than otherwise; without it, flights would be significantly more expensive.
    Secondly, airlines never full adopted the ideas of the economist who came up with the notion and saved them many, many billions of dollars:
    http://conversableeconomist.blogspot.co.uk/2017/04/julian-simons-almost-practical-solution.html
    The United case is particularly egregious as they put the convenience of their employees (for whom the doctor was bumped) over their customers. That they should brutally assault him in the process is unconscionable.
    I simply don’t understand Marty’s approval of such injustifiable violence.

  318. A couple of points on airline overbooking…
    First, overall, it’s greatly to the benefit of both airlines and passengers, as it enables planes to be flown at much higher capacity utilisation than otherwise; without it, flights would be significantly more expensive.
    Secondly, airlines never full adopted the ideas of the economist who came up with the notion and saved them many, many billions of dollars:
    http://conversableeconomist.blogspot.co.uk/2017/04/julian-simons-almost-practical-solution.html
    The United case is particularly egregious as they put the convenience of their employees (for whom the doctor was bumped) over their customers. That they should brutally assault him in the process is unconscionable.
    I simply don’t understand Marty’s approval of such injustifiable violence.

  321. The United case is particularly egregious as they put the convenience of their employees (for whom the doctor was bumped) over their customers. That they should brutally assault him in the process is unconscionable.
    I simply don’t understand Marty’s approval of such injustifiable violence.
    Nor do I.
    Still, t is worth noting that failing to get the crew to Louisville (I think) would have made for major inconvenience to a large number of passengers there, so it is not accurate to say it was done for the convenience of their employees.
    But it was done for the convenience of their pocketbook. They offered a max of $800 to give up a seat. Make it $2500, say, and I bet they would have had more than one volunteer.
    On the matter of laptops I don’t get the idea of banning them from the passenger compartment. It seems more dangerous to put them in the cargo hold.

  322. The United case is particularly egregious as they put the convenience of their employees (for whom the doctor was bumped) over their customers. That they should brutally assault him in the process is unconscionable.
    I simply don’t understand Marty’s approval of such injustifiable violence.
    Nor do I.
    Still, t is worth noting that failing to get the crew to Louisville (I think) would have made for major inconvenience to a large number of passengers there, so it is not accurate to say it was done for the convenience of their employees.
    But it was done for the convenience of their pocketbook. They offered a max of $800 to give up a seat. Make it $2500, say, and I bet they would have had more than one volunteer.
    On the matter of laptops I don’t get the idea of banning them from the passenger compartment. It seems more dangerous to put them in the cargo hold.

  323. Given the cost of the bad PR, they could have made it $10,000 per seat and came out way ahead.

  324. Given the cost of the bad PR, they could have made it $10,000 per seat and came out way ahead.

  325. would have made for major inconvenience to a large number of passengers there…
    I may be a nasty skeptic, but… is there any independent evidence for that, or is it just the word of United’s PR department ?

  326. would have made for major inconvenience to a large number of passengers there…
    I may be a nasty skeptic, but… is there any independent evidence for that, or is it just the word of United’s PR department ?

  327. Given the cost of the bad PR, they could have made it $10,000 per seat and came out way ahead.
    Well, obviously they did not have access to each passenger’s indifference curves (perfect information- yet another assumption underpinning “free market” theory)…yet another market failure 🙂

  328. Given the cost of the bad PR, they could have made it $10,000 per seat and came out way ahead.
    Well, obviously they did not have access to each passenger’s indifference curves (perfect information- yet another assumption underpinning “free market” theory)…yet another market failure 🙂

  331. There are LOTS of options United had; it’s not like there aren’t other flights from Chicago area to Louisville. It’s not that long a flight: United probably has a corporate jet sitting around, United could charter a smallish plane, they could have rented a car and driven the crew (~6-7 hour drive, mostly straight down I65).
    They Just. Didn’t. Think.
    So they went with the ‘authoritarian’ response. Which is usually the result of profound non-thinking IMO; the go-to option of Stupid People.

  332. There are LOTS of options United had; it’s not like there aren’t other flights from Chicago area to Louisville. It’s not that long a flight: United probably has a corporate jet sitting around, United could charter a smallish plane, they could have rented a car and driven the crew (~6-7 hour drive, mostly straight down I65).
    They Just. Didn’t. Think.
    So they went with the ‘authoritarian’ response. Which is usually the result of profound non-thinking IMO; the go-to option of Stupid People.

  333. Maybe we’re outraged fatigued?
    The embarrassing, psychopath president sends an incomprehensible communique to the world in the middle of the freaking night last night as a huge bomb blast goes off in Kabul. Later, he teases the suffering masses to “stay tuned” for his announcement on the Paris agreement on climate change.
    The whole airline thing: how miserable.
    But, to me, it’s so much less important right now than so much else. Or maybe not. Going to dive into my pillow.

  334. Maybe we’re outraged fatigued?
    The embarrassing, psychopath president sends an incomprehensible communique to the world in the middle of the freaking night last night as a huge bomb blast goes off in Kabul. Later, he teases the suffering masses to “stay tuned” for his announcement on the Paris agreement on climate change.
    The whole airline thing: how miserable.
    But, to me, it’s so much less important right now than so much else. Or maybe not. Going to dive into my pillow.

  335. No there weren’t lots of options that United had. They weren’t sitting around a conference room deciding how much to spend, what to do next.
    The people on the ground were executing procedure. They offered the package that is standard, then they upped it. There wasn’t anyone there authorized to spend 10k, they moved to the next procedure step, take the last people to check in, bump them and book them on the next available flight.
    They weren’t weighing legal options, they were following their training. The flight attendants went and informed the doctor he was bumped, I’m sure quite nicely. He objected they apologized but insisted, he got belligerent. They let him know they would have to insist. He started taunting them.
    So they switched to the belligerent passenger procedure, the flight attendants are removed from harms way, security asks the doctor to leave peacefully, he refuses loudly. They take him out, the best way they can.
    No decision by “United”, they didn’t run it up to corporate. Mostly hard working people in a tough situation made tougher by a guy who just couldn’t have empathy for any of the people just trying to do their job. Not one of them wanted that confrontation.
    I don’t understand why no one here has empathy for them either.

  336. No there weren’t lots of options that United had. They weren’t sitting around a conference room deciding how much to spend, what to do next.
    The people on the ground were executing procedure. They offered the package that is standard, then they upped it. There wasn’t anyone there authorized to spend 10k, they moved to the next procedure step, take the last people to check in, bump them and book them on the next available flight.
    They weren’t weighing legal options, they were following their training. The flight attendants went and informed the doctor he was bumped, I’m sure quite nicely. He objected they apologized but insisted, he got belligerent. They let him know they would have to insist. He started taunting them.
    So they switched to the belligerent passenger procedure, the flight attendants are removed from harms way, security asks the doctor to leave peacefully, he refuses loudly. They take him out, the best way they can.
    No decision by “United”, they didn’t run it up to corporate. Mostly hard working people in a tough situation made tougher by a guy who just couldn’t have empathy for any of the people just trying to do their job. Not one of them wanted that confrontation.
    I don’t understand why no one here has empathy for them either.

  337. What that says to me is that the existing procedures need to be changed.
    I’ve got empathy for employees working, probably with minimal flexibility provided, from inadequate procedures. I’ve been there myself — albeit with less public consequences. But I’ve got very little sympathy for the company whose procedures were lacking.

  338. What that says to me is that the existing procedures need to be changed.
    I’ve got empathy for employees working, probably with minimal flexibility provided, from inadequate procedures. I’ve been there myself — albeit with less public consequences. But I’ve got very little sympathy for the company whose procedures were lacking.

  339. So, wj, do we just never insist that people follow the rules? We should just let all the police and security guards go. The ultimate outcome of rule of law is occasionally it has to be enforced. Can procedures be improved? Sure. But that guy was not leaving until he was dragged out. He chose that.
    Contract technicality or not, that isn’t why he refused, he just felt like he shouldn’t have to follow the rules and if he was obnoxious enough he would get his way.

  340. So, wj, do we just never insist that people follow the rules? We should just let all the police and security guards go. The ultimate outcome of rule of law is occasionally it has to be enforced. Can procedures be improved? Sure. But that guy was not leaving until he was dragged out. He chose that.
    Contract technicality or not, that isn’t why he refused, he just felt like he shouldn’t have to follow the rules and if he was obnoxious enough he would get his way.

  341. What law says you have to leave a seat you’ve already taken on a flight you’ve already paid for, short of some kind of emergency? What is the general order governing enforcement that determines what the resonse should be if you refuse?
    It seems to me that if you’re going to justify physically assaulting someone who is sitting in a chair, the burden of proof is on you.

  342. What law says you have to leave a seat you’ve already taken on a flight you’ve already paid for, short of some kind of emergency? What is the general order governing enforcement that determines what the resonse should be if you refuse?
    It seems to me that if you’re going to justify physically assaulting someone who is sitting in a chair, the burden of proof is on you.

  343. GftNC –
    Sorry there have been no updates lately. My family has been in crisis mode due to my dad being seriously ill. This also has affected my ability to actively work for the Ossoff campaign.
    A couple of things related to the GA-6 runoff-
    Polling information from the Atlanta Journal/Constitution can be found here: http://politics.blog.ajc.com/2017/05/23/surveyusa-poll-ossoff-opens-lead-over-handel-in-6th-district-runoff/. The poll has Ossoff up by 7 points.
    Anecdote – I don’t watch local television much, but we happened to have the Braves baseball game on this evening, so I caught an ad for Karen Handel. It was the most despicable ad I think I’ve ever seen. The ominous voice went on and on about Syrian terrorists, Iran-sponsored terrorism, Nancy Pelosi, Bernie Sanders (“Ossoff’s Democratic Party Bosses”) and Ossoff himself. This is probably standard fare, but like I said, I never watch local TV so I don’t usually see political ads.
    I’m guardedly optimistic, but take nothing for granted. I hope life will settle down enough that I can canvass/phonebank over the last couple of weeks. Election is June 20th.

  344. GftNC –
    Sorry there have been no updates lately. My family has been in crisis mode due to my dad being seriously ill. This also has affected my ability to actively work for the Ossoff campaign.
    A couple of things related to the GA-6 runoff-
    Polling information from the Atlanta Journal/Constitution can be found here: http://politics.blog.ajc.com/2017/05/23/surveyusa-poll-ossoff-opens-lead-over-handel-in-6th-district-runoff/. The poll has Ossoff up by 7 points.
    Anecdote – I don’t watch local television much, but we happened to have the Braves baseball game on this evening, so I caught an ad for Karen Handel. It was the most despicable ad I think I’ve ever seen. The ominous voice went on and on about Syrian terrorists, Iran-sponsored terrorism, Nancy Pelosi, Bernie Sanders (“Ossoff’s Democratic Party Bosses”) and Ossoff himself. This is probably standard fare, but like I said, I never watch local TV so I don’t usually see political ads.
    I’m guardedly optimistic, but take nothing for granted. I hope life will settle down enough that I can canvass/phonebank over the last couple of weeks. Election is June 20th.

  345. So, wj, do we just never insist that people follow the rules?
    I never said (nor, as far as I can see, ever implied), anything like that.** I was pretty clear that the fault was with those who wrote the procedures.
    ** Which is not to say that I think blindly following stupid rules is some kind of virtue. Because I think that the merit of human beings over robots is that we can and should be responsible for our actions. Personal responsibility! What a concept!

  346. So, wj, do we just never insist that people follow the rules?
    I never said (nor, as far as I can see, ever implied), anything like that.** I was pretty clear that the fault was with those who wrote the procedures.
    ** Which is not to say that I think blindly following stupid rules is some kind of virtue. Because I think that the merit of human beings over robots is that we can and should be responsible for our actions. Personal responsibility! What a concept!

  347. Personal responsibility. Right.
    So the flight attendant should have taken responsibility to say, never mind, you just stay there comfortably sir. We ‘ll send the flight crew some other way.
    Or the TSA guys should have said that there isn’t a lot of room in here, he might get injured so we refuse to eject him?
    The guy was a jerk, he created the outcome. He was personally responsible.

  348. Personal responsibility. Right.
    So the flight attendant should have taken responsibility to say, never mind, you just stay there comfortably sir. We ‘ll send the flight crew some other way.
    Or the TSA guys should have said that there isn’t a lot of room in here, he might get injured so we refuse to eject him?
    The guy was a jerk, he created the outcome. He was personally responsible.

  349. If he got up and threw a punch, sure. But if he just sat there and declined to get up and leave? Not really a jerk in my mind. I’m not familiar with exactly what went down. But I can definitely see scenarios where the passenger is not a jerk, even though he was refusing to leave when asked/ordered.

  350. If he got up and threw a punch, sure. But if he just sat there and declined to get up and leave? Not really a jerk in my mind. I’m not familiar with exactly what went down. But I can definitely see scenarios where the passenger is not a jerk, even though he was refusing to leave when asked/ordered.

  353. chmatl, very sorry indeed to hear of your troubles – of course you should only give us updates as and when it suits you. The very best of luck in both your current concerns!

  354. chmatl, very sorry indeed to hear of your troubles – of course you should only give us updates as and when it suits you. The very best of luck in both your current concerns!

  357. “No there weren’t lots of options that United had. They weren’t sitting around a conference room deciding how much to spend, what to do next.”
    Yeah, there’s nothing about hanging around in an airport that gives you ANY ideas of how to “get from point A to point B”. Odd, isn’t it?
    It’s also just so wonderful that Marty can share with us his omniscience when it comes to things like the “United incident” and MT congressional candidates body-slamming reporters, including what was going on inside their heads, like their motivations and unexpressed opinions. All I can say is “wow”.
    Poor us, having to view these events through the imperfect lens of “news reports” and “things people who were there said”, and “videos of the incidents”, since we don’t have the divine knowledge that Marty is blessed with.
    Good thing, also, too, or we’d get all snooty and elitist and know-it-all, and look down our noses at those other folk. You just KNOW we would, right?

  358. “No there weren’t lots of options that United had. They weren’t sitting around a conference room deciding how much to spend, what to do next.”
    Yeah, there’s nothing about hanging around in an airport that gives you ANY ideas of how to “get from point A to point B”. Odd, isn’t it?
    It’s also just so wonderful that Marty can share with us his omniscience when it comes to things like the “United incident” and MT congressional candidates body-slamming reporters, including what was going on inside their heads, like their motivations and unexpressed opinions. All I can say is “wow”.
    Poor us, having to view these events through the imperfect lens of “news reports” and “things people who were there said”, and “videos of the incidents”, since we don’t have the divine knowledge that Marty is blessed with.
    Good thing, also, too, or we’d get all snooty and elitist and know-it-all, and look down our noses at those other folk. You just KNOW we would, right?

  361. Everything I said was in a news report, with some experience both running companies and flying hundreds of times applied. You can take it as an insult or a different perspective that may have some validity.
    What it isn’t is authoritarianism.

  362. Everything I said was in a news report, with some experience both running companies and flying hundreds of times applied. You can take it as an insult or a different perspective that may have some validity.
    What it isn’t is authoritarianism.

  363. when the cops come knock a guy out and drag him bodily off the plane because the airline wants his seat, I don’t really care what label you give it. it’s f’d up.
    what else could they have done? ask someone else to give up the seat. let the cranky old guy win one. no skin off their nose.
    ‘just following procedure’ is the weakest BS kn the planet. it is, precisely, the enabling justification of authoritarianism.
    it doesn’t matter if the guy was a loudmouth @sshole. it doesn’t matter what the contract said. the guy was not a threat to anyone, he was at most a PITA.
    you don’t get to physically bully and abuse people because they are being a PITA.
    period. full stop. end of story.
    right?
    if we don’t have agreement on that basic point, then the conversation is done. there is no basis for discussion, we live on different moral planets.

  364. when the cops come knock a guy out and drag him bodily off the plane because the airline wants his seat, I don’t really care what label you give it. it’s f’d up.
    what else could they have done? ask someone else to give up the seat. let the cranky old guy win one. no skin off their nose.
    ‘just following procedure’ is the weakest BS kn the planet. it is, precisely, the enabling justification of authoritarianism.
    it doesn’t matter if the guy was a loudmouth @sshole. it doesn’t matter what the contract said. the guy was not a threat to anyone, he was at most a PITA.
    you don’t get to physically bully and abuse people because they are being a PITA.
    period. full stop. end of story.
    right?
    if we don’t have agreement on that basic point, then the conversation is done. there is no basis for discussion, we live on different moral planets.

  365. rent-a-cop who dragged the doctor off the plane:
    “I was just following orders.”
    Marty:
    “That was a good thing. That response was an example of the moral foundation of civil society.”
    Glad we got that settled.

  366. rent-a-cop who dragged the doctor off the plane:
    “I was just following orders.”
    Marty:
    “That was a good thing. That response was an example of the moral foundation of civil society.”
    Glad we got that settled.

  367. I guess we do live on different moral planets. The procedures are designed to be applied when no one wants to get off the plane, or any of a million places in our society where they are applied. Yes, they do get to physically remove someone who simply refuses to follow the rules.
    Not because they are being a PITA, because they refuse to follow the rules which are pretty much the bedrock of all civil society.
    They asked everyone to give up their seat, everyone said no. Every flyer knew the next step is someone gets bumped. During the whole altercation any one of those passengers with their phones filming it could have volunteered to go instead. No takers.
    Just follow the procedure is where we are, so the flight attendant or the TSA guy don’t get sued for changing it by the next person. The company makes the procedures to, as best as possible, make the process fair and predictable. That’s not authoritarian, its how our society works.

  368. I guess we do live on different moral planets. The procedures are designed to be applied when no one wants to get off the plane, or any of a million places in our society where they are applied. Yes, they do get to physically remove someone who simply refuses to follow the rules.
    Not because they are being a PITA, because they refuse to follow the rules which are pretty much the bedrock of all civil society.
    They asked everyone to give up their seat, everyone said no. Every flyer knew the next step is someone gets bumped. During the whole altercation any one of those passengers with their phones filming it could have volunteered to go instead. No takers.
    Just follow the procedure is where we are, so the flight attendant or the TSA guy don’t get sued for changing it by the next person. The company makes the procedures to, as best as possible, make the process fair and predictable. That’s not authoritarian, its how our society works.

  369. “I simply don’t understand Marty’s approval of such injustifiable violence.
    Nor do I.”
    Yeah, a conservative not having a problem with a highly educated member of a minority group being beaten by cops? It’s unpossible!

  370. “I simply don’t understand Marty’s approval of such injustifiable violence.
    Nor do I.”
    Yeah, a conservative not having a problem with a highly educated member of a minority group being beaten by cops? It’s unpossible!

  371. Marty,
    The procedures are designed to be applied when no one wants to get off the plane, or any of a million places in our society where they are applied.
    Yes they are. Which is exactly why United is to blame. Because this wasn’t a rare, unpredictable, “who’d a thunk it” situation. The execs didn’t have to go sit around a conference table and figure it out on the spot.
    Procedures, as you say, are in place. And who do you think set up those procedures? My guess is United execs. And they could have read:
    Case III.A.7 (iv) No passenger accepts maximum authorized offer from to give up seat.
    Agent (or attendant or someone else) calls regional supervisor to get authorization for higher offer, etc.
    Instead they read, Forcibly remove passenger who has done nothing wrong.
    So yes, I sympathize with the employees, but not with United.

  372. Marty,
    The procedures are designed to be applied when no one wants to get off the plane, or any of a million places in our society where they are applied.
    Yes they are. Which is exactly why United is to blame. Because this wasn’t a rare, unpredictable, “who’d a thunk it” situation. The execs didn’t have to go sit around a conference table and figure it out on the spot.
    Procedures, as you say, are in place. And who do you think set up those procedures? My guess is United execs. And they could have read:
    Case III.A.7 (iv) No passenger accepts maximum authorized offer from to give up seat.
    Agent (or attendant or someone else) calls regional supervisor to get authorization for higher offer, etc.
    Instead they read, Forcibly remove passenger who has done nothing wrong.
    So yes, I sympathize with the employees, but not with United.

  373. “We had a serious breach of public trust, and again, we continue to be profoundly sorry and apologise to everyone involved. What happened is we let our procedures and policies get in the way of common sense and doing the right thing.”
    United’s new policies:
    – “United’s policy will be revised to increase the compensation levels up to $10,000 for customers willing to volunteer to take a later flight.”
    – “United will not ask law enforcement officers to remove customers from flights unless it is a matter of safety and security.”
    etc
    So there you have it. According to United, it had the wrong policies, and did the wrong thing in applying them. According to Marty, it was the passenger’s fault.

  374. “We had a serious breach of public trust, and again, we continue to be profoundly sorry and apologise to everyone involved. What happened is we let our procedures and policies get in the way of common sense and doing the right thing.”
    United’s new policies:
    – “United’s policy will be revised to increase the compensation levels up to $10,000 for customers willing to volunteer to take a later flight.”
    – “United will not ask law enforcement officers to remove customers from flights unless it is a matter of safety and security.”
    etc
    So there you have it. According to United, it had the wrong policies, and did the wrong thing in applying them. According to Marty, it was the passenger’s fault.

  377. United implementing new policies was never a question. So, when ten grand isn’t enough will the plane just sit on the ground forever?
    United trying to avoid the bad publicity in the future doesn’t change the dynamic in this instance.
    Whether they can avoid the problem in the future isn’t what we were discussing.

  378. United implementing new policies was never a question. So, when ten grand isn’t enough will the plane just sit on the ground forever?
    United trying to avoid the bad publicity in the future doesn’t change the dynamic in this instance.
    Whether they can avoid the problem in the future isn’t what we were discussing.

  379. [Y]es, I sympathize with the employees, but not with United.

    Yes indeed, and although I was partly tongue in cheek suggesting “auction,” it’s probably the right answer.
    Marty, was this a life threatening situation that justified a violent response? A passenger sitting in an airplane seat? I hope we can agree that an important part of law enforcement is to defuse situations, avoiding the use of physical force when possible.

  380. [Y]es, I sympathize with the employees, but not with United.

    Yes indeed, and although I was partly tongue in cheek suggesting “auction,” it’s probably the right answer.
    Marty, was this a life threatening situation that justified a violent response? A passenger sitting in an airplane seat? I hope we can agree that an important part of law enforcement is to defuse situations, avoiding the use of physical force when possible.

  381. Procedures, as you say, are in place. And who do you think set up those procedures? My guess is United execs. And they could have read:
    Case III.A.7 (iv) No passenger accepts maximum authorized offer from to give up seat.
    Agent (or attendant or someone else) calls regional supervisor to get authorization for higher offer, etc.
    Instead they read, Forcibly remove passenger who has done nothing wrong.
    So yes, I sympathize with the employees, but not with United.
    (my bold)
    Hard to argue with this, surely Marty?

  382. Procedures, as you say, are in place. And who do you think set up those procedures? My guess is United execs. And they could have read:
    Case III.A.7 (iv) No passenger accepts maximum authorized offer from to give up seat.
    Agent (or attendant or someone else) calls regional supervisor to get authorization for higher offer, etc.
    Instead they read, Forcibly remove passenger who has done nothing wrong.
    So yes, I sympathize with the employees, but not with United.
    (my bold)
    Hard to argue with this, surely Marty?

  383. Imagine that Marty is sitting across the aisle from the “jerk”. Just like the “jerk”, Marty has turned down the maximum comp that UAL had authorized the flight crew to offer.
    Following procedure, the crew selected the “jerk”, and not Marty, to be the involuntary ejectee. Marty’s scowl darkens as the “jerk” refuses to leave. Still following procedure, the crew calls in the rent-a-cops. The “jerk” stands(?) his ground and tells them to piss off. Marty is now furious because he has appointments to keep too, and this stand-off is holding up the flight.
    So far so good. But now, in this scenario, the head rent-a-cop sizes up the situation and decides that the “jerk” can’t be ejected without physical violence. He’s authorized to use violence, but he’s a sober-minded man and not power-drunk. He tells the crew to pick somebody else to eject.
    Well, we can see a problem here. Having watched the “jerk” successfully defy authority, the next passenger, and the next, and the next are bound to give this “jerk” thing a try.
    Luckily, the first passenger the crew decides to eject, in place of the recalcitrant “jerk”, is the fellow sitting across the aisle: Marty.
    Problem solved! Marty is nothing if not sincere in his moral beliefs. Before such authorities as UAL and “security”, Marty meekly (though, being only human, grudgingly) gathers up his stuff and leaves the plane uninjured.
    Nobody gets hurt. The “jerk” gets to his no doubt trivial appointments on time. The last, critical UAL employee gets to fly. The other flight is not delayed. Video doesn’t get posted to YouTube. United Airlines doesn’t get a black eye. Civil society endures.
    All thanks to Marty.
    –TP

  384. Imagine that Marty is sitting across the aisle from the “jerk”. Just like the “jerk”, Marty has turned down the maximum comp that UAL had authorized the flight crew to offer.
    Following procedure, the crew selected the “jerk”, and not Marty, to be the involuntary ejectee. Marty’s scowl darkens as the “jerk” refuses to leave. Still following procedure, the crew calls in the rent-a-cops. The “jerk” stands(?) his ground and tells them to piss off. Marty is now furious because he has appointments to keep too, and this stand-off is holding up the flight.
    So far so good. But now, in this scenario, the head rent-a-cop sizes up the situation and decides that the “jerk” can’t be ejected without physical violence. He’s authorized to use violence, but he’s a sober-minded man and not power-drunk. He tells the crew to pick somebody else to eject.
    Well, we can see a problem here. Having watched the “jerk” successfully defy authority, the next passenger, and the next, and the next are bound to give this “jerk” thing a try.
    Luckily, the first passenger the crew decides to eject, in place of the recalcitrant “jerk”, is the fellow sitting across the aisle: Marty.
    Problem solved! Marty is nothing if not sincere in his moral beliefs. Before such authorities as UAL and “security”, Marty meekly (though, being only human, grudgingly) gathers up his stuff and leaves the plane uninjured.
    Nobody gets hurt. The “jerk” gets to his no doubt trivial appointments on time. The last, critical UAL employee gets to fly. The other flight is not delayed. Video doesn’t get posted to YouTube. United Airlines doesn’t get a black eye. Civil society endures.
    All thanks to Marty.
    –TP

  385. Actually TP, I would have left. I have had a similar experience, I was first not second, and with a little complaining and I’m sure pretty evil looks I left. I know what I would do in that situation. So you are welcome.

  386. Actually TP, I would have left. I have had a similar experience, I was first not second, and with a little complaining and I’m sure pretty evil looks I left. I know what I would do in that situation. So you are welcome.

  387. GftNC,
    I am pretty sure that the procedure read to inform the selected passenger, (in my flying experience it is not the last to board but the last to check in) That they have been bumped, they will get on the next available flight and get compensation. My bet is that procedure did not anticipate someone refusing to leave.
    In my experience the flight attendants, gate agent and the Captain, if required, make it clear that this has to happen in the nicest but most firm way. I am sure that the next step is decided not only by the refusal but the tone and nature of it.
    Once you raise your voice to a flight attendant then you edge into the threat matrix. They are typically incredibly patient but at some point a line gets crossed and you are considered a threat.
    I flew between 25 and 40 weeks a year, often multiple cities in a week for ten years. This is far from a unique situation. I have seen it personally 10 – 15 times and I was asked to deplane once.
    It takes a lot to get physically thrown off of a plane.

  388. GftNC,
    I am pretty sure that the procedure read to inform the selected passenger, (in my flying experience it is not the last to board but the last to check in) That they have been bumped, they will get on the next available flight and get compensation. My bet is that procedure did not anticipate someone refusing to leave.
    In my experience the flight attendants, gate agent and the Captain, if required, make it clear that this has to happen in the nicest but most firm way. I am sure that the next step is decided not only by the refusal but the tone and nature of it.
    Once you raise your voice to a flight attendant then you edge into the threat matrix. They are typically incredibly patient but at some point a line gets crossed and you are considered a threat.
    I flew between 25 and 40 weeks a year, often multiple cities in a week for ten years. This is far from a unique situation. I have seen it personally 10 – 15 times and I was asked to deplane once.
    It takes a lot to get physically thrown off of a plane.

  389. I’m sorry Marty, but you are talking nonsense.
    The ‘procedure’ required to resolve such situations without conflict was described back in 1968 by the same economist who saved the airline industry maybe $100bn with his proposals for maximising capacity utilisation through overbooking.
    That airlines b=never adopted it is entirely down to their greed, and absolutely nothing to do with maintaining civil society. This situation was entirely predictable – and indeed predicted… fifty years ago.

  390. I’m sorry Marty, but you are talking nonsense.
    The ‘procedure’ required to resolve such situations without conflict was described back in 1968 by the same economist who saved the airline industry maybe $100bn with his proposals for maximising capacity utilisation through overbooking.
    That airlines b=never adopted it is entirely down to their greed, and absolutely nothing to do with maintaining civil society. This situation was entirely predictable – and indeed predicted… fifty years ago.

  391. So, when ten grand isn’t enough will the plane just sit on the ground forever?
    Only if the airline are even bigger flaming idiots than UA was in this case.
    If nobody wants to give up their seat to facilitate UA ferrying their staff around, UA should find another way to get their staff where they need them to be.
    Put them on the next flight. Right? Good enough for paying customers, good enough for staff.
    That will make the next flight late? UA needs to do a better job of scheduling their people. It’s not the fault of the guy they dragged off, and shouldn’t have been his problem.
    UA says they let adherence to their procedures get in the way of common sense and doing what is basically and obviously right. You disagree. I agree with UA, and disagree with you.
    And yes, if you’re fine with manhandling people because they are not cooperative, then we’re not on the same page.
    What’s been made clear to me over my entire lifetime is that the world that conservatives envision is not one that I think is good. Not morally, ethically, practically, politically, socially, any way you want to look at it. The lingo may be high-minded, but the actual practice is inhumane.
    So I’m against it, and I will not abide it becoming the norm.

  392. So, when ten grand isn’t enough will the plane just sit on the ground forever?
    Only if the airline are even bigger flaming idiots than UA was in this case.
    If nobody wants to give up their seat to facilitate UA ferrying their staff around, UA should find another way to get their staff where they need them to be.
    Put them on the next flight. Right? Good enough for paying customers, good enough for staff.
    That will make the next flight late? UA needs to do a better job of scheduling their people. It’s not the fault of the guy they dragged off, and shouldn’t have been his problem.
    UA says they let adherence to their procedures get in the way of common sense and doing what is basically and obviously right. You disagree. I agree with UA, and disagree with you.
    And yes, if you’re fine with manhandling people because they are not cooperative, then we’re not on the same page.
    What’s been made clear to me over my entire lifetime is that the world that conservatives envision is not one that I think is good. Not morally, ethically, practically, politically, socially, any way you want to look at it. The lingo may be high-minded, but the actual practice is inhumane.
    So I’m against it, and I will not abide it becoming the norm.

  393. What’s been made clear to me is that morally and ethically we probably agree but practically we are worlds apart. Some things are not good but are practically necessary.
    There is no world where some few people who are required to enforce the rules don’t require some ability to actually enforce it.

  394. What’s been made clear to me is that morally and ethically we probably agree but practically we are worlds apart. Some things are not good but are practically necessary.
    There is no world where some few people who are required to enforce the rules don’t require some ability to actually enforce it.

  395. Ah, I’m late to the party, as usual.
    Lurker:
    Today, Merkel gave a speech where she remarked that certain allies are no longer unquestionably trustworthy. Europe must take care of herself. This is a clear deviation from the traditional line of Merkel’s party, the CDU, which has focussed on transatlantic defence cooperation instead of European one. With this change, it looks quitepossible that France and Germany will find each other in cooperation for a common EU defence policy, which is quite welcome development for my country’s government. We have been calling for common European defence for years.
    One of the reasons that I argue a partition of the United States in 40 or so years is possible is a decline in unifying factors. One of those factors is “world’s policeman,” also known as spending more on defense than the next ten largest spenders combined.
    Granted, I thought it would take longer and be more subtle. The cost of the toys getting too high, so fewer of them. The risk to the big toys in forward positions too high, so more reluctance to put them out there. Popular resistance to a personnel level high enough to put boots on the ground in necessary numbers (recall how many tours in Iraq were done by National Guard members, not just regular Army, and how unpopular that was). I have a standing bet with an acquaintance that by the end of 2039 (less than 25 years from now!) the US will be unable to mount an Iraq-style operation outside of the Western Hemisphere.
    I expected the rest of the world’s wake-up call to be more along the lines of the US announcing that in the future, it would only deploy two carrier strike groups at a time. If the rest of the world complained, I expected the discussions to be private, not public. Although the options might well be much the same: build your own, write big checks to the US DOD directly, run a sufficient trade deficit with the US, or decide that you don’t need force projection on that scale.
    The really nasty question in any of these scenarios is what happens if a Germany or a Japan decides that they can’t trust the US nuclear umbrella. Japan could certainly build a bomb in a few months, and already has launch vehicles that could be adapted.

  396. Ah, I’m late to the party, as usual.
    Lurker:
    Today, Merkel gave a speech where she remarked that certain allies are no longer unquestionably trustworthy. Europe must take care of herself. This is a clear deviation from the traditional line of Merkel’s party, the CDU, which has focussed on transatlantic defence cooperation instead of European one. With this change, it looks quitepossible that France and Germany will find each other in cooperation for a common EU defence policy, which is quite welcome development for my country’s government. We have been calling for common European defence for years.
    One of the reasons that I argue a partition of the United States in 40 or so years is possible is a decline in unifying factors. One of those factors is “world’s policeman,” also known as spending more on defense than the next ten largest spenders combined.
    Granted, I thought it would take longer and be more subtle. The cost of the toys getting too high, so fewer of them. The risk to the big toys in forward positions too high, so more reluctance to put them out there. Popular resistance to a personnel level high enough to put boots on the ground in necessary numbers (recall how many tours in Iraq were done by National Guard members, not just regular Army, and how unpopular that was). I have a standing bet with an acquaintance that by the end of 2039 (less than 25 years from now!) the US will be unable to mount an Iraq-style operation outside of the Western Hemisphere.
    I expected the rest of the world’s wake-up call to be more along the lines of the US announcing that in the future, it would only deploy two carrier strike groups at a time. If the rest of the world complained, I expected the discussions to be private, not public. Although the options might well be much the same: build your own, write big checks to the US DOD directly, run a sufficient trade deficit with the US, or decide that you don’t need force projection on that scale.
    The really nasty question in any of these scenarios is what happens if a Germany or a Japan decides that they can’t trust the US nuclear umbrella. Japan could certainly build a bomb in a few months, and already has launch vehicles that could be adapted.

  397. Just imagine that force had been unavailable to evict a seated passenger. Would United have found a solution, or would their staff not have reached Louisville?
    They would have found a solution. Force was not practically necessary.

  398. Just imagine that force had been unavailable to evict a seated passenger. Would United have found a solution, or would their staff not have reached Louisville?
    They would have found a solution. Force was not practically necessary.

  399. One of the reasons that I argue a partition of the United States in 40 or so years is possible is a decline in unifying factors.
    I’m trying to see a scenario where that could happen. Without success.
    Having established, a while back, that unilateral withdrawal is not an option, it would have to be a negotiated and mutually agreed on separation. And I can’t see that actually coming to pass.
    For one, the actual divide isn’t so much entire states as urban vs rural. And most states have a significant urban area, even if it isn’t anywhere near big enough to control the state government. Do we go with a mass of geographic islands as a nation?
    Then there is the detail that those who seem most likely to want to separate are economically dependent on the existing national government. Can you imagine the states that currently generate more Federal government income than they get back agreeing to pay (permanent?) subsidies to those who want to leave?
    What I think more likely is that the current political fracture declines. Starting, perhaps, with those who want to shrink the Federal government getting what they are demanding . . . and discovering just how much they are hurt by that. The fanatical libertarianism of the Ryan wing of the GOP would take a serious hit.

  400. One of the reasons that I argue a partition of the United States in 40 or so years is possible is a decline in unifying factors.
    I’m trying to see a scenario where that could happen. Without success.
    Having established, a while back, that unilateral withdrawal is not an option, it would have to be a negotiated and mutually agreed on separation. And I can’t see that actually coming to pass.
    For one, the actual divide isn’t so much entire states as urban vs rural. And most states have a significant urban area, even if it isn’t anywhere near big enough to control the state government. Do we go with a mass of geographic islands as a nation?
    Then there is the detail that those who seem most likely to want to separate are economically dependent on the existing national government. Can you imagine the states that currently generate more Federal government income than they get back agreeing to pay (permanent?) subsidies to those who want to leave?
    What I think more likely is that the current political fracture declines. Starting, perhaps, with those who want to shrink the Federal government getting what they are demanding . . . and discovering just how much they are hurt by that. The fanatical libertarianism of the Ryan wing of the GOP would take a serious hit.

  401. I still cherish the hope that when the neo-Confederates gain enough power in Washington, they will kick New England out of the Union. I would not fight Civil War 2 to stay in 🙂
    –TP

  402. I still cherish the hope that when the neo-Confederates gain enough power in Washington, they will kick New England out of the Union. I would not fight Civil War 2 to stay in 🙂
    –TP

  403. And I can’t see that actually coming to pass.
    India and Pakistan managed to do so…and it’s been unicorns and lollipops ever since, right?

  404. And I can’t see that actually coming to pass.
    India and Pakistan managed to do so…and it’s been unicorns and lollipops ever since, right?

  405. I suspect various kinds of nullification will play an increasingly larger role in the next decade or so. You already have the sanctuary cities movement.
    States are legalizing marijuana which is still illegal in federal law. Much of federal law is unenforceable with the states’ active participation.

  406. I suspect various kinds of nullification will play an increasingly larger role in the next decade or so. You already have the sanctuary cities movement.
    States are legalizing marijuana which is still illegal in federal law. Much of federal law is unenforceable with the states’ active participation.

  409. What do you see as the significance of state governments, even in red states, becoming more liberal on drug issues than Congressional Republicans are?
    At the rate things are going, I could see marijuana legalization, for example, happening in a lot more states . . . including some pretty red ones. Popular opinion definitely looks to be headed that way. Getting something like that at the Federal level? Way less likely. Even come the day when a majority of red states have gotten on board.

  410. What do you see as the significance of state governments, even in red states, becoming more liberal on drug issues than Congressional Republicans are?
    At the rate things are going, I could see marijuana legalization, for example, happening in a lot more states . . . including some pretty red ones. Popular opinion definitely looks to be headed that way. Getting something like that at the Federal level? Way less likely. Even come the day when a majority of red states have gotten on board.

  411. Politics is a trailing indicator of where society is headed. Some politicians, like Sessions, will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the future. The opportunists will try to get out in front of the stampedes and claim to have been leading them all along.

  412. Politics is a trailing indicator of where society is headed. Some politicians, like Sessions, will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the future. The opportunists will try to get out in front of the stampedes and claim to have been leading them all along.

  413. Force was not practically necessary.
    Aye, there’s the rub. But rules!
    Even a conservative rag like The Federalist appears to disagree with Marty.
    So who is to blame here? The legally boarded randomly selected passenger who “raised his voice”(my, how terrible!) in objection, the employees who were, in fact, apparently breaking the company rules, or the dumb and/or incoherent rules?
    The Marty defense is used in other areas. It is part and parcel of the whole cloth of deference to authority, as long as that authority is acting in his perceived best interests. You see this when there are the great debates about murder by cop….usually of black males.
    This is because it’s all about keeping the wheels on for them, their society.
    But when they perceive the wheels to be coming off, they act just like the rest of us.
    When Cliven Bundy refused to pay taxes and threatened bodily harm to federal marshals, where was the Martys of the world raising their voices in outrage that the rules “had to be followed” to maintain “civil society”?
    For the most part, they were silent.

  414. Force was not practically necessary.
    Aye, there’s the rub. But rules!
    Even a conservative rag like The Federalist appears to disagree with Marty.
    So who is to blame here? The legally boarded randomly selected passenger who “raised his voice”(my, how terrible!) in objection, the employees who were, in fact, apparently breaking the company rules, or the dumb and/or incoherent rules?
    The Marty defense is used in other areas. It is part and parcel of the whole cloth of deference to authority, as long as that authority is acting in his perceived best interests. You see this when there are the great debates about murder by cop….usually of black males.
    This is because it’s all about keeping the wheels on for them, their society.
    But when they perceive the wheels to be coming off, they act just like the rest of us.
    When Cliven Bundy refused to pay taxes and threatened bodily harm to federal marshals, where was the Martys of the world raising their voices in outrage that the rules “had to be followed” to maintain “civil society”?
    For the most part, they were silent.

  415. The Great-Businessman-in-Chief is pulling out of the Paris accord. Cleek’s Law…

  416. The Great-Businessman-in-Chief is pulling out of the Paris accord. Cleek’s Law…

  417. I said Bundy should be arrested and sent to jail. I am not sure he was holding up 300 people from getting to their destination but if they had used force to arrest him, well he was being an ass.

  418. I said Bundy should be arrested and sent to jail. I am not sure he was holding up 300 people from getting to their destination but if they had used force to arrest him, well he was being an ass.

  419. Marty,
    My bet is that procedure did not anticipate someone refusing to leave.
    You might be right, but if so it was a damn poorly thought out procedure. The whole point of thinking things through in advance is to anticipate a variety of possible scenarios. Surely “passenger refuses” is not an unimaginable possibility.

  420. Marty,
    My bet is that procedure did not anticipate someone refusing to leave.
    You might be right, but if so it was a damn poorly thought out procedure. The whole point of thinking things through in advance is to anticipate a variety of possible scenarios. Surely “passenger refuses” is not an unimaginable possibility.

  421. “Surely “passenger refuses” is not an unimaginable possibility. ”
    I think at some point, in my lifetime, it would have been.

  422. “Surely “passenger refuses” is not an unimaginable possibility. ”
    I think at some point, in my lifetime, it would have been.

  425. hairshirt,
    Cleek’s Law is a fundamental axiom. Various theorems can be deduced from it, including this: Republicans think they live in The Economy, not in The Environment.
    –TP

  426. hairshirt,
    Cleek’s Law is a fundamental axiom. Various theorems can be deduced from it, including this: Republicans think they live in The Economy, not in The Environment.
    –TP

  427. Republicans think they live in The Economy, not in The Environment.
    Truly excellent: true, and excellent. Is it entirely yours, Tony P?

  428. Republicans think they live in The Economy, not in The Environment.
    Truly excellent: true, and excellent. Is it entirely yours, Tony P?

  429. I’m just thinking of the CEOs (all those smart business people) lobbying that jackass not to pull out for business and economic reasons.
    Yeah, let’s just let China develop and build tomorrow’s technology while we dig for coal. Jesus…

  430. I’m just thinking of the CEOs (all those smart business people) lobbying that jackass not to pull out for business and economic reasons.
    Yeah, let’s just let China develop and build tomorrow’s technology while we dig for coal. Jesus…

  433. GftNC,
    My theorem, which is mine, is original with me AFAIK. I’ve been espousing it here since the 2009(2010?) cap-and-trade debate if not before.
    The theorem, which is mine, has a corollary: Republicans would have you believe that money is a finite resource and fossil fuels are not.
    What pisses me off is that the coal-loving granny-starvers think the public is stupid enough to overlook something: money spent on solar energy is not paid to the Sun and money spent on fossil fuels is not paid to the Earth. It gets paid to rentiers and workers — in different proportions. It doesn’t leave The Economy because “money” cannot “leave” The Economy.
    –TP

  434. GftNC,
    My theorem, which is mine, is original with me AFAIK. I’ve been espousing it here since the 2009(2010?) cap-and-trade debate if not before.
    The theorem, which is mine, has a corollary: Republicans would have you believe that money is a finite resource and fossil fuels are not.
    What pisses me off is that the coal-loving granny-starvers think the public is stupid enough to overlook something: money spent on solar energy is not paid to the Sun and money spent on fossil fuels is not paid to the Earth. It gets paid to rentiers and workers — in different proportions. It doesn’t leave The Economy because “money” cannot “leave” The Economy.
    –TP

  437. i’m getting the feeling that Trump really isn’t very smart.
    But he sure knows how to give the finger to liberals. That’s what’s important.

  438. i’m getting the feeling that Trump really isn’t very smart.
    But he sure knows how to give the finger to liberals. That’s what’s important.

  439. Having established, a while back, that unilateral withdrawal is not an option, it would have to be a negotiated and mutually agreed on separation. And I can’t see that actually coming to pass.
    Think of it as an academic exercise. You need 38 states — or more likely, IMO, various contiguous regions that include 38 states in total — willing to vote for a peaceful partition. Under what conditions might a group of states decide they are better off as a country of (probably) 25-100M people than part of one with 325M? Headed to 400M in less than 35 years if the Census Bureau is right. Almost certainly different reasons for different regions. I say right up front that the things people are bitching about today are probably not the reasons that will matter. Most of those, as you point out, are largely urban-rural.
    Possible starting places: the South and parts of the Midwest decide they want cheap electricity and climate change be damned; California offers the western states, which it wants to take with it for water and energy reasons, a greater emphasis on public land maintenance than budgets drawn up in Washington, DC; the Northeast really, really wants single payer but needs the federal tax stream to pull it off.
    There are a surprising number of crazy people around. I had a chance a few years ago to have lunch with one of the officers of the 51st State movement here in Colorado (they’re a real organization, having done the paperwork so they can accept tax-deductible donations). I pointed out the new state would be quite poor, with less money to spend on K-12 education, likely nothing for public higher ed, decreased maintenance of their road network, etc. He told me those were features, not bugs.

  440. Having established, a while back, that unilateral withdrawal is not an option, it would have to be a negotiated and mutually agreed on separation. And I can’t see that actually coming to pass.
    Think of it as an academic exercise. You need 38 states — or more likely, IMO, various contiguous regions that include 38 states in total — willing to vote for a peaceful partition. Under what conditions might a group of states decide they are better off as a country of (probably) 25-100M people than part of one with 325M? Headed to 400M in less than 35 years if the Census Bureau is right. Almost certainly different reasons for different regions. I say right up front that the things people are bitching about today are probably not the reasons that will matter. Most of those, as you point out, are largely urban-rural.
    Possible starting places: the South and parts of the Midwest decide they want cheap electricity and climate change be damned; California offers the western states, which it wants to take with it for water and energy reasons, a greater emphasis on public land maintenance than budgets drawn up in Washington, DC; the Northeast really, really wants single payer but needs the federal tax stream to pull it off.
    There are a surprising number of crazy people around. I had a chance a few years ago to have lunch with one of the officers of the 51st State movement here in Colorado (they’re a real organization, having done the paperwork so they can accept tax-deductible donations). I pointed out the new state would be quite poor, with less money to spend on K-12 education, likely nothing for public higher ed, decreased maintenance of their road network, etc. He told me those were features, not bugs.

  441. At the rate things are going, I could see marijuana legalization, for example, happening in a lot more states . . . including some pretty red ones.
    I point out that every state (and DC) that has legalized marijuana — red, blue, or purple — has done so through citizen-initiated ballot measures. Arizona’s initiative also came close in November, failing by less than three percentage points; AZ will almost certainly pass an initiative within five years. Ohio’s initiative failed badly, but was seriously flawed.
    Given that state legislatures are invariably older, whiter, and more conservative than their constituencies, I don’t hold out a lot of hope for legalization outside of the initiative states for quite some time.

  442. At the rate things are going, I could see marijuana legalization, for example, happening in a lot more states . . . including some pretty red ones.
    I point out that every state (and DC) that has legalized marijuana — red, blue, or purple — has done so through citizen-initiated ballot measures. Arizona’s initiative also came close in November, failing by less than three percentage points; AZ will almost certainly pass an initiative within five years. Ohio’s initiative failed badly, but was seriously flawed.
    Given that state legislatures are invariably older, whiter, and more conservative than their constituencies, I don’t hold out a lot of hope for legalization outside of the initiative states for quite some time.

  443. Re: marijuana legalization. So I guess those ‘dirty hippies’ were right after all, all the way back in the 60’s and 70’s. Shame that it took so long for hartänd amerikans so long to get over being looked down on.

  444. Re: marijuana legalization. So I guess those ‘dirty hippies’ were right after all, all the way back in the 60’s and 70’s. Shame that it took so long for hartänd amerikans so long to get over being looked down on.

  445. You already have the sanctuary cities movement.
    that’s not an example of local nullification of federal law.
    I said Bundy should be arrested and sent to jail
    good call.
    Bundy’s legal troubles don’t stem from his being an ass. they stem from him breaking the law.

  446. You already have the sanctuary cities movement.
    that’s not an example of local nullification of federal law.
    I said Bundy should be arrested and sent to jail
    good call.
    Bundy’s legal troubles don’t stem from his being an ass. they stem from him breaking the law.

  451. no federal law is nullified because immigration enforcement is not the job nor does it fall into the jurisdiction of local law enforcement.

  452. no federal law is nullified because immigration enforcement is not the job nor does it fall into the jurisdiction of local law enforcement.

  459. I’d say there’s a pretty big difference between letting people open marijuana shops downtown in violation of federal law, on one hand, and not actively participating in immigration enforcement, on the other.
    Maybe if cities dedicated terminals in their airports to planes carrying illegal immigrants into the country, where they would be whisked away to safe-houses before immigration could get to them (absurd, I know), those things might be more or less of the same nature in terms of local nullification of federal law.

  460. I’d say there’s a pretty big difference between letting people open marijuana shops downtown in violation of federal law, on one hand, and not actively participating in immigration enforcement, on the other.
    Maybe if cities dedicated terminals in their airports to planes carrying illegal immigrants into the country, where they would be whisked away to safe-houses before immigration could get to them (absurd, I know), those things might be more or less of the same nature in terms of local nullification of federal law.

  463. Why aren’t sanctuary cities a nullification of federal law?
    “Sanctuary” cities are generally places where the local government has decided to not devote local resources to participating in what are normally Immigration Service actions.
    Because (a) $$$$ and (b) they usually have more pressing things to address and (c) acting as ICE agents quite often interferes with their ability to do community policing.
    Also in general, police in sanctuary cities comply with the stuff they are legally obliged to comply with.
    Most commonly, police in a sanctuary city decline to question people about their immigration status in the course of routine police work, and decline to hold people past their legal release date if they are only being held for violating local laws.
    Shorter me: cops in sanctuary cities don’t act like federal immigration agents. They act like local cops.

  464. Why aren’t sanctuary cities a nullification of federal law?
    “Sanctuary” cities are generally places where the local government has decided to not devote local resources to participating in what are normally Immigration Service actions.
    Because (a) $$$$ and (b) they usually have more pressing things to address and (c) acting as ICE agents quite often interferes with their ability to do community policing.
    Also in general, police in sanctuary cities comply with the stuff they are legally obliged to comply with.
    Most commonly, police in a sanctuary city decline to question people about their immigration status in the course of routine police work, and decline to hold people past their legal release date if they are only being held for violating local laws.
    Shorter me: cops in sanctuary cities don’t act like federal immigration agents. They act like local cops.

  465. “Memo to states: it is no longer your job to enforce any federal law!”
    I, for one, look forward to States, municipalities, and armed citizens enforcing Federal and International law against War Crimes and Torture.

  466. “Memo to states: it is no longer your job to enforce any federal law!”
    I, for one, look forward to States, municipalities, and armed citizens enforcing Federal and International law against War Crimes and Torture.

  467. Memo to states: it is no longer your job to enforce any federal law!
    Local cops are typically not tasked with doing SEC investigations, or checking for federal health and safety violations, or with enforcing any number of other federal laws and regulations.
    Their job is public safety at the community level.
    Nobody at the municipal level is preventing ICE from doing its job, or interfering with immigration enforcement.
    They just don’t want to devote local resources to doing it. For the reasons I mentioned above.
    That does not amount to local nullification of federal law.

  468. Memo to states: it is no longer your job to enforce any federal law!
    Local cops are typically not tasked with doing SEC investigations, or checking for federal health and safety violations, or with enforcing any number of other federal laws and regulations.
    Their job is public safety at the community level.
    Nobody at the municipal level is preventing ICE from doing its job, or interfering with immigration enforcement.
    They just don’t want to devote local resources to doing it. For the reasons I mentioned above.
    That does not amount to local nullification of federal law.

  469. From Slate (yeah, yeah, big-time lefties):

    For undocumented immigrants, an arrest can trigger detention and deportation by ICE. And that’s true even if a self-described sanctuary city refuses to detain someone upon federal request. The fingerprints police collect when booking someone into custody are automatically shared with federal immigration authorities, whether that police department wants to share them or not. A fingerprint match alerts ICE that a suspected undocumented immigrant has been arrested. ICE agents can then find that person, detain them, and deport them. If ICE wants to detain someone, they can find and detain them anywhere in the United States regardless of whether local officials are cooperating.

    Now I suppose you could say similar things about, say, marijuana dispensaries that are legal in various states. The feds could always decide to step in a bust them (AFAIK). But the immigration thing is more of a “don’t ask, don’t tell” situation. It’s pretty obvious that, if you’re openly running a store that is selling marijuana, which is illegal under federal law, you’re selling marijuana, which is illegal under federal law.
    In fact, you have been licensed by the state or locality to do just that, in violation of federal law.

  470. From Slate (yeah, yeah, big-time lefties):

    For undocumented immigrants, an arrest can trigger detention and deportation by ICE. And that’s true even if a self-described sanctuary city refuses to detain someone upon federal request. The fingerprints police collect when booking someone into custody are automatically shared with federal immigration authorities, whether that police department wants to share them or not. A fingerprint match alerts ICE that a suspected undocumented immigrant has been arrested. ICE agents can then find that person, detain them, and deport them. If ICE wants to detain someone, they can find and detain them anywhere in the United States regardless of whether local officials are cooperating.

    Now I suppose you could say similar things about, say, marijuana dispensaries that are legal in various states. The feds could always decide to step in a bust them (AFAIK). But the immigration thing is more of a “don’t ask, don’t tell” situation. It’s pretty obvious that, if you’re openly running a store that is selling marijuana, which is illegal under federal law, you’re selling marijuana, which is illegal under federal law.
    In fact, you have been licensed by the state or locality to do just that, in violation of federal law.

  471. Why aren’t sanctuary cities a nullification of federal law?
    Because the sanctuary cities are not claiming that the federal government has no right to enforce immigration laws.

  472. Why aren’t sanctuary cities a nullification of federal law?
    Because the sanctuary cities are not claiming that the federal government has no right to enforce immigration laws.

  473. ICE getting local cops to help = unfunded mandates. And they’re not even “mandates”, they’re just “we’d like you to do this”.
    The GOP congress and President are fully capable of passing a Federal law requiring states and municipalities to do ICE’s work for them.
    And nearly certainly getting such a law slammed down by the courts, for violating state sovereignty.
    IOW, it’s longstanding conservative policy that States should tell ICE to GFYS. So they should stop whining and bitching when they actually do.

  474. ICE getting local cops to help = unfunded mandates. And they’re not even “mandates”, they’re just “we’d like you to do this”.
    The GOP congress and President are fully capable of passing a Federal law requiring states and municipalities to do ICE’s work for them.
    And nearly certainly getting such a law slammed down by the courts, for violating state sovereignty.
    IOW, it’s longstanding conservative policy that States should tell ICE to GFYS. So they should stop whining and bitching when they actually do.

  483. Sounds like a lot of hair-splitting to me. It’s nullification, just of the feel good variety.
    What federal law are sanctuary cities either violating or failing in their legally required duty to enforce?

  484. Sounds like a lot of hair-splitting to me. It’s nullification, just of the feel good variety.
    What federal law are sanctuary cities either violating or failing in their legally required duty to enforce?

  485. What sanctuary cities has the Trump Administration sued to enforce their compliance with federal law?

  486. What sanctuary cities has the Trump Administration sued to enforce their compliance with federal law?

  487. I am doing my activism thing these days. If you have the time, call your representative in support of HJ resolution 102, which would ban the sale of precision munitions to Saudi Arabia. There is a similar resolution in the Senate sponsored by Chris Murphy, Al Franken, and Ron Paul, but when I read a draft online it didn’t have a number.

  488. I am doing my activism thing these days. If you have the time, call your representative in support of HJ resolution 102, which would ban the sale of precision munitions to Saudi Arabia. There is a similar resolution in the Senate sponsored by Chris Murphy, Al Franken, and Ron Paul, but when I read a draft online it didn’t have a number.

  489. Indeed, absent some kind of deputizing statute or something similar, it’s probably (and should be) illegal for local officials & law enforcement to enforce federal immigration law. They would have no authority to do so.

  490. Indeed, absent some kind of deputizing statute or something similar, it’s probably (and should be) illegal for local officials & law enforcement to enforce federal immigration law. They would have no authority to do so.

  493. Take another example – in states where marijuana is legal, I don’t think a local police officer would have the authority to arrest someone for possession based solely upon a federal statute making it a crime (again, absent some other statute granting local law enforcement that authority).

  494. Take another example – in states where marijuana is legal, I don’t think a local police officer would have the authority to arrest someone for possession based solely upon a federal statute making it a crime (again, absent some other statute granting local law enforcement that authority).

  497. They’re refusing the voluntary cooperation of (a) asking people arrested their immigration status and (b) holding people locally at ICE’s request, among likely other things.
    That the cooperation has been historically voluntary doesn’t mean it wasn’t a big deal or not very helpful to ICE.

  498. They’re refusing the voluntary cooperation of (a) asking people arrested their immigration status and (b) holding people locally at ICE’s request, among likely other things.
    That the cooperation has been historically voluntary doesn’t mean it wasn’t a big deal or not very helpful to ICE.

  499. Sounds like a lot of hair-splitting to me. It’s nullification, just of the feel good variety.
    Or hypocrisy. That’s my call.
    And another productive dialog comes to a close.
    You asked, we answered. You didn’t like the answer.
    Sounds like we’re done with this topic.

  500. Sounds like a lot of hair-splitting to me. It’s nullification, just of the feel good variety.
    Or hypocrisy. That’s my call.
    And another productive dialog comes to a close.
    You asked, we answered. You didn’t like the answer.
    Sounds like we’re done with this topic.

  501. Then why do they make such a big deal about being “sanctuary cities?” You’re trying to have it both ways.
    Probably to help with their local efforts to serve and protect their communities. But that’s already been pointed out.

  502. Then why do they make such a big deal about being “sanctuary cities?” You’re trying to have it both ways.
    Probably to help with their local efforts to serve and protect their communities. But that’s already been pointed out.

  503. Then why do they make such a big deal about being “sanctuary cities?”
    you probably shouldn’t blame others for making a “big deal” out of something “conservatives” have been screaming themselves hoarse about for the past two years.
    it’s just another part of the phony anti-immigrant frenzy you’ve all whipped yourselves into.
    don’t like the noise? try not making so damned much of it.

  504. Then why do they make such a big deal about being “sanctuary cities?”
    you probably shouldn’t blame others for making a “big deal” out of something “conservatives” have been screaming themselves hoarse about for the past two years.
    it’s just another part of the phony anti-immigrant frenzy you’ve all whipped yourselves into.
    don’t like the noise? try not making so damned much of it.

  505. Then why do they make such a big deal about being “sanctuary cities?” You’re trying to have it both ways.
    One reason to make it a big deal: it helps convince the immigrant community (legal or otherwise) that local law enforcement is someone they can deal with safely. Which gets the kind of cooperation without which local law enforcement is extremely difficult.
    If it helps, think of it as the same kind of posturing that Trump was doing when pulling out of the Paris Accord. On one hand, it’s not a big deal, since he could have just changed our goals to something that had no impact. But he made the gesture because his actual audience was the people in his base who like rude gestures aimed at “the elites.” Substance is rather beside the point. Similarly, “sanctuary cities” is about gaining the confidence of local populations; not about changing anything significant about Federal law.

  506. Then why do they make such a big deal about being “sanctuary cities?” You’re trying to have it both ways.
    One reason to make it a big deal: it helps convince the immigrant community (legal or otherwise) that local law enforcement is someone they can deal with safely. Which gets the kind of cooperation without which local law enforcement is extremely difficult.
    If it helps, think of it as the same kind of posturing that Trump was doing when pulling out of the Paris Accord. On one hand, it’s not a big deal, since he could have just changed our goals to something that had no impact. But he made the gesture because his actual audience was the people in his base who like rude gestures aimed at “the elites.” Substance is rather beside the point. Similarly, “sanctuary cities” is about gaining the confidence of local populations; not about changing anything significant about Federal law.

  507. Also note that sanctuary cities pre-date the Obama Administration, probably even W and Clinton (tho I’m less sure).

  508. Also note that sanctuary cities pre-date the Obama Administration, probably even W and Clinton (tho I’m less sure).

  513. letting the police ignore fugitive slaves wasn’t nullification of the earlier Fugitive Slave Act of 1793, however.
    the 1850 act made it incumbent on all law enforcement to arrest fugitive slaves. but the earlier act didn’t.

  514. letting the police ignore fugitive slaves wasn’t nullification of the earlier Fugitive Slave Act of 1793, however.
    the 1850 act made it incumbent on all law enforcement to arrest fugitive slaves. but the earlier act didn’t.

  515. The issue isn’t the efficacy of SC’s, or immigration policy; it’s the cries of nullification directed by Lefties when their own policy preferences lead to to same de facto result. Then comes the hairsplitting and subject changing.

  516. The issue isn’t the efficacy of SC’s, or immigration policy; it’s the cries of nullification directed by Lefties when their own policy preferences lead to to same de facto result. Then comes the hairsplitting and subject changing.

  517. The issue isn’t the efficacy of SC’s, or immigration policy; it’s the cries of nullification directed by Lefties when their own policy preferences lead to to same de facto result. Then comes the hairsplitting and subject changing.
    Then why are you picking on sanctuary cities when you no doubt have numerous examples of this hypocrisy.
    And if you do, then surely you have been criticizing your fellow conservatives for their hypocrisy as well. I haven’t seen that.

  518. The issue isn’t the efficacy of SC’s, or immigration policy; it’s the cries of nullification directed by Lefties when their own policy preferences lead to to same de facto result. Then comes the hairsplitting and subject changing.
    Then why are you picking on sanctuary cities when you no doubt have numerous examples of this hypocrisy.
    And if you do, then surely you have been criticizing your fellow conservatives for their hypocrisy as well. I haven’t seen that.

  519. I have decided sanctuary cities are fine, excellent in fact. The point about letting local law enforcement have better community relationship is important.
    I think the move for Cal, N.Y. and others to implement policy in the spirit of Paris(spirit is really all there is) is also a great idea.
    I think single payer being implemented in California should get any waiver they might need. I think other states having other versions of that would be good too. The Fed’s should give them their Medicaid dollars in a block grant to help support that.
    All three things that were the big topics of discussion as “blowback” this week were victories for us States Rights fans. GOOD FOR them
    Plus marijuana legalization, can’t ask for more good things than those.

  520. I have decided sanctuary cities are fine, excellent in fact. The point about letting local law enforcement have better community relationship is important.
    I think the move for Cal, N.Y. and others to implement policy in the spirit of Paris(spirit is really all there is) is also a great idea.
    I think single payer being implemented in California should get any waiver they might need. I think other states having other versions of that would be good too. The Fed’s should give them their Medicaid dollars in a block grant to help support that.
    All three things that were the big topics of discussion as “blowback” this week were victories for us States Rights fans. GOOD FOR them
    Plus marijuana legalization, can’t ask for more good things than those.

  523. Forgive my ignorance of legal nuance. But isn’t “nullification” when someone (a state, a city, a jury) is refusing to do what the law requires? Rather than just announcing that they disagree with it, and are therefore not going to assist in enforcing it, beyond the minimum actually required by the law.
    Am I missing something here?

  524. Forgive my ignorance of legal nuance. But isn’t “nullification” when someone (a state, a city, a jury) is refusing to do what the law requires? Rather than just announcing that they disagree with it, and are therefore not going to assist in enforcing it, beyond the minimum actually required by the law.
    Am I missing something here?

  525. WJ, you’re hair-splitting. The whole point of SC is to frustrate and oppose USimmigration law. It’s nullification in form and in substance. It just grates to have it pointed out.

  526. WJ, you’re hair-splitting. The whole point of SC is to frustrate and oppose USimmigration law. It’s nullification in form and in substance. It just grates to have it pointed out.

  527. hair-splitting
    As ;you know, as a lawyer, specifics matter.
    The whole point of SC is to frustrate and oppose USimmigration law.
    russell’s earlier comment, pointing out some areas of federal law that are not routinely enforced by local authorities, is quite pertinent here. I doubt that you would want your local county patrolman to be on the IRS beat.
    Stop being silly, McKinney. You know better. And why are you supporting Trump’s inhumane immigration policies? You don’t eat food? You aren’t aware that most of what you ingest has been handled by migrant workers? Or maybe you just eat the meat.

  528. hair-splitting
    As ;you know, as a lawyer, specifics matter.
    The whole point of SC is to frustrate and oppose USimmigration law.
    russell’s earlier comment, pointing out some areas of federal law that are not routinely enforced by local authorities, is quite pertinent here. I doubt that you would want your local county patrolman to be on the IRS beat.
    Stop being silly, McKinney. You know better. And why are you supporting Trump’s inhumane immigration policies? You don’t eat food? You aren’t aware that most of what you ingest has been handled by migrant workers? Or maybe you just eat the meat.

  529. McKinney,
    Keep preening yourself on your amazing ability to spot “left’ish” hypocrisy. We are all amused and enlightened. Cleek the Lawgiver most especially, I bet.
    –TP

  530. McKinney,
    Keep preening yourself on your amazing ability to spot “left’ish” hypocrisy. We are all amused and enlightened. Cleek the Lawgiver most especially, I bet.
    –TP

  533. McK,
    I’m picking on the recurring silliness of denouncing nullification when when it is, in fact, bipartisan. Nuance!
    Funny. Your comments seem kind of one-sided to me.
    Also, I don’t agree with your description. There is no interference with federal enforcement, no interposition, just refusal to cooperate.
    Yes, that refusal is partly motivated by dislike of immigration laws, or rather of draconian and inhumane enforcement of them, but there is also a solid practical law-enforcement rationale.
    So there is a distinction, besides the obvious one that the SC’s aren’t breaking laws.

  534. McK,
    I’m picking on the recurring silliness of denouncing nullification when when it is, in fact, bipartisan. Nuance!
    Funny. Your comments seem kind of one-sided to me.
    Also, I don’t agree with your description. There is no interference with federal enforcement, no interposition, just refusal to cooperate.
    Yes, that refusal is partly motivated by dislike of immigration laws, or rather of draconian and inhumane enforcement of them, but there is also a solid practical law-enforcement rationale.
    So there is a distinction, besides the obvious one that the SC’s aren’t breaking laws.

  537. Seriously Sapient, does everything have to be printed in block letters on a Big Chief tablet? I’m making a very limited point here and have never–not once-said anything in support of T’s immigration policy. You should consider some kind of therapy. You’re becoming unhinged.

  538. Seriously Sapient, does everything have to be printed in block letters on a Big Chief tablet? I’m making a very limited point here and have never–not once-said anything in support of T’s immigration policy. You should consider some kind of therapy. You’re becoming unhinged.

  539. Seriously Sapient, does everything have to be printed in block letters on a Big Chief tablet? I’m making a very limited point here and have never–not once-said anything in support of T’s immigration policy. You should consider some kind of therapy. You’re becoming unhinged.
    First of all, who would blame me?
    Second, WTF, [seriously] McKinney? You bete noir today is sanctuary cities. I’ve not read one comment of yours stating your hope that ICE stops their cruel round-up of “illegals” as some call them. What is your view on that? I imagine, since you’ve been asked the question, you’ll slip into oblivion until you’re called by the “hypocrisy patrol” to show up again.

  540. Seriously Sapient, does everything have to be printed in block letters on a Big Chief tablet? I’m making a very limited point here and have never–not once-said anything in support of T’s immigration policy. You should consider some kind of therapy. You’re becoming unhinged.
    First of all, who would blame me?
    Second, WTF, [seriously] McKinney? You bete noir today is sanctuary cities. I’ve not read one comment of yours stating your hope that ICE stops their cruel round-up of “illegals” as some call them. What is your view on that? I imagine, since you’ve been asked the question, you’ll slip into oblivion until you’re called by the “hypocrisy patrol” to show up again.

  541. I’m taxing on a flight back to Houston. This will be short. I’ve previously discussed this: amnesty for anyone not a felon and residency if they have been here five years. Then, immigration per quotas and process. Rolling now. Have to go.

  542. I’m taxing on a flight back to Houston. This will be short. I’ve previously discussed this: amnesty for anyone not a felon and residency if they have been here five years. Then, immigration per quotas and process. Rolling now. Have to go.

  543. Rolling now. Have to go.
    Of course.
    But horror of horrors that local cops aren’t doing immigration raids. Nullification!

  544. Rolling now. Have to go.
    Of course.
    But horror of horrors that local cops aren’t doing immigration raids. Nullification!

  545. I think in order for it to be nullification you actually have to be defying federal law or some kind of duly constituted federal authority (like a federal court), rather than refusing to help out when asked, which AFAICT is all the SC’s are doing. Perhaps they are risking forfeiting federal funds but that still wouldn’t be nullification.

  546. I think in order for it to be nullification you actually have to be defying federal law or some kind of duly constituted federal authority (like a federal court), rather than refusing to help out when asked, which AFAICT is all the SC’s are doing. Perhaps they are risking forfeiting federal funds but that still wouldn’t be nullification.

  549. “Perhaps they are risking forfeiting federal funds but that still wouldn’t be nullification.”
    …and thanks to Chief Justice John “lawless” Roberts in the Sebelius case, they can still get their Medicaid funds even if they tell the Feds to go pound sand.
    I’ll take cries of “liberal hypocrisy” a bit more seriously when liberals control more than “none” of the Federal Government, and control the Supreme court for a month or two, after a half-century of having the other side getting to write all the judgments.

  550. “Perhaps they are risking forfeiting federal funds but that still wouldn’t be nullification.”
    …and thanks to Chief Justice John “lawless” Roberts in the Sebelius case, they can still get their Medicaid funds even if they tell the Feds to go pound sand.
    I’ll take cries of “liberal hypocrisy” a bit more seriously when liberals control more than “none” of the Federal Government, and control the Supreme court for a month or two, after a half-century of having the other side getting to write all the judgments.

  551. The courts seem inclined to block denying federal funds to sanctuary cities.
    “Today Judge William Orrick of the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California issued a nationwide preliminary injunction that blocks the Trump administration from enforcing President Donald Trump’s executive order denying federal funds to so-called sanctuary cities. ‘The confusion caused by [the executive order’s] facially unconstitutional directives and its coercive effects weigh heavily against leaving it in place,’ Judge Orrick wrote. ‘The balance of harms weighs in favor of an injunction.'”
    Federal Judge Blocks Trump Administration from Enforcing Executive Order on Sanctuary Cities: The order’s “facially unconstitutional directives and its coercive effects weigh heavily against leaving it in place.” (Apr. 25, 2017)

  552. The courts seem inclined to block denying federal funds to sanctuary cities.
    “Today Judge William Orrick of the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California issued a nationwide preliminary injunction that blocks the Trump administration from enforcing President Donald Trump’s executive order denying federal funds to so-called sanctuary cities. ‘The confusion caused by [the executive order’s] facially unconstitutional directives and its coercive effects weigh heavily against leaving it in place,’ Judge Orrick wrote. ‘The balance of harms weighs in favor of an injunction.'”
    Federal Judge Blocks Trump Administration from Enforcing Executive Order on Sanctuary Cities: The order’s “facially unconstitutional directives and its coercive effects weigh heavily against leaving it in place.” (Apr. 25, 2017)

  559. I think in order for it to be nullification ….
    nullification is exactly what McTx says, no more no less. and it is subject to modification at any time.
    don’t be such a leftist.

  560. I think in order for it to be nullification ….
    nullification is exactly what McTx says, no more no less. and it is subject to modification at any time.
    don’t be such a leftist.

  561. Marty, your link is just the latest in a string of such deeply depressing stories. Stories which I think I am right in saying have received widespread, or even unanimous condemnation here. Or am I wrong?

  562. Marty, your link is just the latest in a string of such deeply depressing stories. Stories which I think I am right in saying have received widespread, or even unanimous condemnation here. Or am I wrong?

  563. Marty, your link is just the latest in a string of such deeply depressing stories. Stories which I think I am right in saying have received widespread, or even unanimous condemnation here. Or am I wrong?

  564. Marty, your link is just the latest in a string of such deeply depressing stories. Stories which I think I am right in saying have received widespread, or even unanimous condemnation here. Or am I wrong?

  565. Marty, your link is just the latest in a string of such deeply depressing stories. Stories which I think I am right in saying have received widespread, or even unanimous condemnation here. Or am I wrong?

  566. Marty, your link is just the latest in a string of such deeply depressing stories. Stories which I think I am right in saying have received widespread, or even unanimous condemnation here. Or am I wrong?

  567. Marty, your link is just the latest in a string of such deeply depressing stories. Stories which I think I am right in saying have received widespread, or even unanimous condemnation here. Or am I wrong?

  568. Marty, your link is just the latest in a string of such deeply depressing stories. Stories which I think I am right in saying have received widespread, or even unanimous condemnation here. Or am I wrong?

  569. Marty, your link is just the latest in a string of such deeply depressing stories. Stories which I think I am right in saying have received widespread, or even unanimous condemnation here. Or am I wrong?

  570. Marty, your link is just the latest in a string of such deeply depressing stories. Stories which I think I am right in saying have received widespread, or even unanimous condemnation here. Or am I wrong?

  579. You’re right, Cleek. I should have cited your blog for not only your insightful examination of the widespread left wing intolerance on campus and elsewhere but also for your fine efforts in aggregating all of the other left- of- center analysts who have been as forthright as you. My bad.

  580. You’re right, Cleek. I should have cited your blog for not only your insightful examination of the widespread left wing intolerance on campus and elsewhere but also for your fine efforts in aggregating all of the other left- of- center analysts who have been as forthright as you. My bad.

  581. Brief condemnation, almost in passing, not all that widespread, but no introspection to speak of.
    You know, McKinney, you keep trying to make us the kind of lefties you really want us to be (I assume for baiting and insulting purposes) rather than the kind we are. I acknowledge that some among us do the same to you and to Marty, but wouldn’t it be better to actually deal with each other as we are, instead of creating stock caricatures which enable us to go on criticising, opposing and insulting without the insight and introspection you claim to wish for?

  582. Brief condemnation, almost in passing, not all that widespread, but no introspection to speak of.
    You know, McKinney, you keep trying to make us the kind of lefties you really want us to be (I assume for baiting and insulting purposes) rather than the kind we are. I acknowledge that some among us do the same to you and to Marty, but wouldn’t it be better to actually deal with each other as we are, instead of creating stock caricatures which enable us to go on criticising, opposing and insulting without the insight and introspection you claim to wish for?

  583. The dynamics of what gets discussed at what length and with what intensity is reasonably chaotic, and our ability to remember and assess the actual occurrences of various types of discussions and topics is flawed. What gets discussed also does not accurately reflect what is thought by people in whatever particular categories you can come up with. Further, our ability to group people into meaningful categories to determine what people in those categories think or discuss is flawed. It’s a pointless rabbit-hole to go into this, which may well be the point, assuming intentional or even subconscious trolling.
    College kids do some seriously stupid stuff in the name of whatever pet ideologies they are enamored with at the time. Or just because they drank too much beer and tequila, though those stupid things are usually of a different variety.

  584. The dynamics of what gets discussed at what length and with what intensity is reasonably chaotic, and our ability to remember and assess the actual occurrences of various types of discussions and topics is flawed. What gets discussed also does not accurately reflect what is thought by people in whatever particular categories you can come up with. Further, our ability to group people into meaningful categories to determine what people in those categories think or discuss is flawed. It’s a pointless rabbit-hole to go into this, which may well be the point, assuming intentional or even subconscious trolling.
    College kids do some seriously stupid stuff in the name of whatever pet ideologies they are enamored with at the time. Or just because they drank too much beer and tequila, though those stupid things are usually of a different variety.

  585. If it helps, I was on the beer-and-tequila team in college and generally thought the politically active kids who were always protesting whatever the hell it was they were protesting were a bunch of weirdos.

  586. If it helps, I was on the beer-and-tequila team in college and generally thought the politically active kids who were always protesting whatever the hell it was they were protesting were a bunch of weirdos.

  587. Some of us, while in college, thought both the politically obsessed kids and the frat boys (aka the beer-and-tequila guys) were pretty weird.

  588. Some of us, while in college, thought both the politically obsessed kids and the frat boys (aka the beer-and-tequila guys) were pretty weird.

  589. GFTNC, after Marty’s recent take down for having complained about tone and tenor, I thought I’d start matching snark for snark, to see how well it sits when the shoe is on the other foot. Predictably, not well. Others–you in particular- merit engagement. Pick a topic. I’ll have some time on Monday.
    HSH, it isn’t kid being kids. They hound people off campus, they make bizarre demands and are accommodated. This is a thing and it’s getting worse with mo end in sight, in large part due to the complicit silence of the larger left.

  590. GFTNC, after Marty’s recent take down for having complained about tone and tenor, I thought I’d start matching snark for snark, to see how well it sits when the shoe is on the other foot. Predictably, not well. Others–you in particular- merit engagement. Pick a topic. I’ll have some time on Monday.
    HSH, it isn’t kid being kids. They hound people off campus, they make bizarre demands and are accommodated. This is a thing and it’s getting worse with mo end in sight, in large part due to the complicit silence of the larger left.

  591. The issue isn’t the efficacy of SC’s, or immigration policy; it’s the cries of nullification directed by Lefties
    it’s not the substance of the immigration policy. it’s not whether a “sanctuary city” policy makes sense or not.
    it’s an opportunity to call out lefties for their hypocrisy.
    what a freaking waste of everyone’s time.
    it might be of interest to consider the history of the doctrine of nullification in this country, and the uses to which it has been put.
    then see if “we’d rather not spend our town money and our cop’s time checking people’s immigration status” qualifies.
    or not, your call.

  592. The issue isn’t the efficacy of SC’s, or immigration policy; it’s the cries of nullification directed by Lefties
    it’s not the substance of the immigration policy. it’s not whether a “sanctuary city” policy makes sense or not.
    it’s an opportunity to call out lefties for their hypocrisy.
    what a freaking waste of everyone’s time.
    it might be of interest to consider the history of the doctrine of nullification in this country, and the uses to which it has been put.
    then see if “we’d rather not spend our town money and our cop’s time checking people’s immigration status” qualifies.
    or not, your call.

  593. wouldn’t it be better to actually deal with each other as we are, instead of creating stock caricatures which enable us to go on criticising, opposing and insulting without the insight and introspection you claim to wish for?
    what fun would that be?
    mck, maybe take a break and come back after you’ve sobered up. you usually have some good things to say, today you’re just trolling. and not even very well.
    couple of aspirin, hydrate, hit the sack things will look better in the morning.

  594. wouldn’t it be better to actually deal with each other as we are, instead of creating stock caricatures which enable us to go on criticising, opposing and insulting without the insight and introspection you claim to wish for?
    what fun would that be?
    mck, maybe take a break and come back after you’ve sobered up. you usually have some good things to say, today you’re just trolling. and not even very well.
    couple of aspirin, hydrate, hit the sack things will look better in the morning.

  595. Ah yes, the fun. Of course, I was forgetting about that aspect…..
    McKinney, is Marty’s recent take down for having complained about tone and tenor really how you saw the conversation? It seemed to me that it was more a case of some (me principally, I admit, but I think I had sympathisers) defending Marty against over-the-top characterisations, but then not letting him get away with over-the- top claims that what he had experienced amounted to bullying and intimidation. It all seemed to end amicably enough, with his lovely Memorial Day post, much appreciated by all and sundry. Are you truly using that episode to justify one of your periodic descents into “ObWi posters are all loony Marxist student-snowflake sympathising SJWs [delete as appropriate for individual cases]”?

  596. Ah yes, the fun. Of course, I was forgetting about that aspect…..
    McKinney, is Marty’s recent take down for having complained about tone and tenor really how you saw the conversation? It seemed to me that it was more a case of some (me principally, I admit, but I think I had sympathisers) defending Marty against over-the-top characterisations, but then not letting him get away with over-the- top claims that what he had experienced amounted to bullying and intimidation. It all seemed to end amicably enough, with his lovely Memorial Day post, much appreciated by all and sundry. Are you truly using that episode to justify one of your periodic descents into “ObWi posters are all loony Marxist student-snowflake sympathising SJWs [delete as appropriate for individual cases]”?

  597. R, it’s an opportunity to point out that hurling nullification charges is a glass house issue. Nothing more, nothing less. And that makes people here pussy. If my skin were that thin, I’d have been gone ago. People here are so ensured to Cleek, Tony P, Sapient, Snarki and many others, including at least one headliner, cutting hard and deep, not substantively often enough, just hard often personal snark, they don’t even notice, or if they do, they are silent. People here routinely demand that Marty or I account for this or that and usually not In an objective, polite way. Turn the table even slightly and it’s trolling. Or ending the discussion. This has been the path here for some time. It’s been a lot worse since the election. Adios.

  598. R, it’s an opportunity to point out that hurling nullification charges is a glass house issue. Nothing more, nothing less. And that makes people here pussy. If my skin were that thin, I’d have been gone ago. People here are so ensured to Cleek, Tony P, Sapient, Snarki and many others, including at least one headliner, cutting hard and deep, not substantively often enough, just hard often personal snark, they don’t even notice, or if they do, they are silent. People here routinely demand that Marty or I account for this or that and usually not In an objective, polite way. Turn the table even slightly and it’s trolling. Or ending the discussion. This has been the path here for some time. It’s been a lot worse since the election. Adios.

  603. including at least one headliner
    if you’re referring to me, just refer to me. no need for pussyfooting.
    Turn the table even slightly and it’s trolling.
    Trolling is when you participate just to get a reaction, rather than to engage. That seemed to be your program today.
    Or ending the discussion.
    I step out of discussions when I don’t think there’s any point in pursuing them. There are lots of other people here to talk to, no worries.
    FWIW, nullification actually means something fairly specific in the context of US political history, and what it means is not what you are claiming it means.
    “Effectively nullification”, “just like nullification”, “for all intents and purposes nullification”, are not nullification. And the stuff we’re talking about is not even any of those things.
    Because the actual immigration policies of the federal government have, in fact, not been nullified. Not by intent, not in principle, not in practice. They are still in effect, everywhere around the nation, and are still being vigorously implemented. People are, every day, having their legal status challenged and investigated, they are being apprehended, held, and deported back to their home countries. Everywhere, every day. For “nullification” to actually mean something, something actually has to be nullified.
    Right?
    This isn’t directed at you, McK, but it often strikes me that the craft of lawyering is about 85% a matter of perverting the plain sense of the language.
    I thought of being an attorney back in my youth. Took the LSAT, did pretty well. I like what I do now instead. I build stuff, it works or it doesn’t work. No BS. The money is probably not as good, but all in all it was IMO a good choice, for me. I think lawyering would drive me freaking nuts.
    Have a nice weekend.

  604. including at least one headliner
    if you’re referring to me, just refer to me. no need for pussyfooting.
    Turn the table even slightly and it’s trolling.
    Trolling is when you participate just to get a reaction, rather than to engage. That seemed to be your program today.
    Or ending the discussion.
    I step out of discussions when I don’t think there’s any point in pursuing them. There are lots of other people here to talk to, no worries.
    FWIW, nullification actually means something fairly specific in the context of US political history, and what it means is not what you are claiming it means.
    “Effectively nullification”, “just like nullification”, “for all intents and purposes nullification”, are not nullification. And the stuff we’re talking about is not even any of those things.
    Because the actual immigration policies of the federal government have, in fact, not been nullified. Not by intent, not in principle, not in practice. They are still in effect, everywhere around the nation, and are still being vigorously implemented. People are, every day, having their legal status challenged and investigated, they are being apprehended, held, and deported back to their home countries. Everywhere, every day. For “nullification” to actually mean something, something actually has to be nullified.
    Right?
    This isn’t directed at you, McK, but it often strikes me that the craft of lawyering is about 85% a matter of perverting the plain sense of the language.
    I thought of being an attorney back in my youth. Took the LSAT, did pretty well. I like what I do now instead. I build stuff, it works or it doesn’t work. No BS. The money is probably not as good, but all in all it was IMO a good choice, for me. I think lawyering would drive me freaking nuts.
    Have a nice weekend.

  609. cleek,
    I just clicked on your HuffPo link. At the end, it notes that the post has been updated to include Ben Sasse’s twitter reaction. Just for curiosity, did you post your link before or after that update? Either way, do you have any thoughts on Sasse’s 4-part tweet?
    The funny thing is, this morning I caught a brief snatch on the radio to the effect that Maher had said something offensive, and wondered what it might have been. The funnier thing is, I was watching Maher live last night and I confess I didn’t connect the dots right away. I’m willing to allow that this proves I am not as cluefull as I should be about black people’s sensitivities — i.e. that I am not as free of subconscious racism as I like to think.
    I’m even willing to allow that there’s such a thing as obscenity, which I define as that which is so offensive that even thinking it amounts to a moral failing. What I’m still reluctant to allow is that the obscene can never be, simultaneously, funny or ironic or thought-provoking in a good way.
    To some people, a fake severed head of The Donald is obscene; to others a portrait of The Prophet is obscene; to yet others the N-word is obscene. Having merely mentioned these things, I suppose I have offended several (possibly overlapping) sets of people. Not being a tweeter, I apologize right away.
    All that said, I have to insist that people can do evil while not remotely engaging in obscenity. It’s not remotely obscene for a Ben Sasse to disrespect education by saying (as he did) that he did not attend Harvard and Yale because they offered better academics, but because they had crappy enough sports for him to be an athlete there. That was not obscene, but I found it more repulsive in the moment than Maher’s “joke”.
    –TP

  610. cleek,
    I just clicked on your HuffPo link. At the end, it notes that the post has been updated to include Ben Sasse’s twitter reaction. Just for curiosity, did you post your link before or after that update? Either way, do you have any thoughts on Sasse’s 4-part tweet?
    The funny thing is, this morning I caught a brief snatch on the radio to the effect that Maher had said something offensive, and wondered what it might have been. The funnier thing is, I was watching Maher live last night and I confess I didn’t connect the dots right away. I’m willing to allow that this proves I am not as cluefull as I should be about black people’s sensitivities — i.e. that I am not as free of subconscious racism as I like to think.
    I’m even willing to allow that there’s such a thing as obscenity, which I define as that which is so offensive that even thinking it amounts to a moral failing. What I’m still reluctant to allow is that the obscene can never be, simultaneously, funny or ironic or thought-provoking in a good way.
    To some people, a fake severed head of The Donald is obscene; to others a portrait of The Prophet is obscene; to yet others the N-word is obscene. Having merely mentioned these things, I suppose I have offended several (possibly overlapping) sets of people. Not being a tweeter, I apologize right away.
    All that said, I have to insist that people can do evil while not remotely engaging in obscenity. It’s not remotely obscene for a Ben Sasse to disrespect education by saying (as he did) that he did not attend Harvard and Yale because they offered better academics, but because they had crappy enough sports for him to be an athlete there. That was not obscene, but I found it more repulsive in the moment than Maher’s “joke”.
    –TP

  611. Does make you wonder a little about the folks who programmed the autocorrect
    I used to work with a guy who would prank our co-workers by editing the auto-correct dictionary for Word on their machines.
    Hilarity ensued…

  612. Does make you wonder a little about the folks who programmed the autocorrect
    I used to work with a guy who would prank our co-workers by editing the auto-correct dictionary for Word on their machines.
    Hilarity ensued…

  613. It’s been a lot worse since the election.
    Everything’s been a lot worse since the election.

  614. It’s been a lot worse since the election.
    Everything’s been a lot worse since the election.

  615. HSH, it isn’t kid being kids. They hound people off campus, they make bizarre demands and are accommodated. This is a thing and it’s getting worse with mo end in sight, in large part due to the complicit silence of the larger left.
    No real argument, and I won’t cry a tear when the pendulum swings back against the kind of stupid crap we’re seeing on campuses. My point was that, when we’re discussing policies that affect the entire country, or even the world, I’m not going to get as exercised over the stupid crap that happens on some number of college campuses (often that I don’t recall hearing of before the stupid crap became a story). And I don’t want to hear that I or the left in general isn’t sufficiently upset according to whatever arbitrary standard you have in mind at the moment.

  616. HSH, it isn’t kid being kids. They hound people off campus, they make bizarre demands and are accommodated. This is a thing and it’s getting worse with mo end in sight, in large part due to the complicit silence of the larger left.
    No real argument, and I won’t cry a tear when the pendulum swings back against the kind of stupid crap we’re seeing on campuses. My point was that, when we’re discussing policies that affect the entire country, or even the world, I’m not going to get as exercised over the stupid crap that happens on some number of college campuses (often that I don’t recall hearing of before the stupid crap became a story). And I don’t want to hear that I or the left in general isn’t sufficiently upset according to whatever arbitrary standard you have in mind at the moment.

  619. This isn’t directed at you, McK, but it often strikes me that the craft of lawyering is about 85% a matter of perverting the plain sense of the language.
    In defense of good lawyering, and the “norms” of legal ethics, this isn’t actually true. The practice of law is only as good as the bar. We have to hold onto our legal system, demand that it serves us well, and be as involved as we can in that process (mostly by advocating for smart and ethical government and voting).
    Democracy, what a thing. It’s flawed because we’re flawed, but we can make it work to all of our benefit if we don’t give up on it. The law involves finding truth. Let’s not give up on the truth, or data, or reason, or technology, or progress, or human decency.

  620. This isn’t directed at you, McK, but it often strikes me that the craft of lawyering is about 85% a matter of perverting the plain sense of the language.
    In defense of good lawyering, and the “norms” of legal ethics, this isn’t actually true. The practice of law is only as good as the bar. We have to hold onto our legal system, demand that it serves us well, and be as involved as we can in that process (mostly by advocating for smart and ethical government and voting).
    Democracy, what a thing. It’s flawed because we’re flawed, but we can make it work to all of our benefit if we don’t give up on it. The law involves finding truth. Let’s not give up on the truth, or data, or reason, or technology, or progress, or human decency.

  623. In defense of good lawyering, and the “norms” of legal ethics, this isn’t actually true.
    I’m sure that, in actual practice, that is the case. And, I’m sure that, in actual legal practice, the habit of splitting hairs to the point of transparency has value.
    And I’ll just leave it at that.

  624. In defense of good lawyering, and the “norms” of legal ethics, this isn’t actually true.
    I’m sure that, in actual practice, that is the case. And, I’m sure that, in actual legal practice, the habit of splitting hairs to the point of transparency has value.
    And I’ll just leave it at that.

  625. Whatever is happening in London was tragic. Sad that we have to contend with Donald Trump’s reaction.
    We really need to get rid of him (lawfully). As a strategic matter, maybe it would be better to wait until Democrats can do it, post-2018 (we hope). As a national emergency, the time is now.

  626. Whatever is happening in London was tragic. Sad that we have to contend with Donald Trump’s reaction.
    We really need to get rid of him (lawfully). As a strategic matter, maybe it would be better to wait until Democrats can do it, post-2018 (we hope). As a national emergency, the time is now.

  627. No words.
    Not that I want to burden russell or the Count to speak for me, but I’m getting more and more speechless. Please help me out here.

  628. No words.
    Not that I want to burden russell or the Count to speak for me, but I’m getting more and more speechless. Please help me out here.

  629. If you want to be optimistic for the long term, consider that Horowitz is described as “a red-daiper baby.” And think about how many children of today’s far right are going to be pillars of liberalism in a couple of decades.

  630. If you want to be optimistic for the long term, consider that Horowitz is described as “a red-daiper baby.” And think about how many children of today’s far right are going to be pillars of liberalism in a couple of decades.

  633. If you want to be optimistic for the long term, consider that Horowitz is described as “a red-daiper baby”
    unfortunately, it took the deaths of millions for that generation of reds to figure out that their world historical dream was not so great.
    fanatics are fanatics, no matter the doctrine.

  634. If you want to be optimistic for the long term, consider that Horowitz is described as “a red-daiper baby”
    unfortunately, it took the deaths of millions for that generation of reds to figure out that their world historical dream was not so great.
    fanatics are fanatics, no matter the doctrine.

  635. They hound people off campus, they make bizarre demands and are accommodated. This is a thing and it’s getting worse with mo end in sight, in large part due to the complicit silence of the larger left.
    Donald Trump still has 85+% approval among Republicans? yes, 87%, according to Gallup.
    go police your own.

  636. They hound people off campus, they make bizarre demands and are accommodated. This is a thing and it’s getting worse with mo end in sight, in large part due to the complicit silence of the larger left.
    Donald Trump still has 85+% approval among Republicans? yes, 87%, according to Gallup.
    go police your own.

  637. What I’m still reluctant to allow is that the obscene can never be, simultaneously, funny or ironic or thought-provoking in a good way.
    Maher’s ‘joke’ wasn’t funny.
    there are probably ways that phrase can be used in a successful joke. but i reckon none of them involve Maher delivering it.

  638. What I’m still reluctant to allow is that the obscene can never be, simultaneously, funny or ironic or thought-provoking in a good way.
    Maher’s ‘joke’ wasn’t funny.
    there are probably ways that phrase can be used in a successful joke. but i reckon none of them involve Maher delivering it.

  641. i heard that TAL story when they first aired it and was stunned. it was one of those times when i just kept driving around so i could hear it all, instead of going to the store like i was supposed to be doing.

  642. i heard that TAL story when they first aired it and was stunned. it was one of those times when i just kept driving around so i could hear it all, instead of going to the store like i was supposed to be doing.

  643. You’re welcome, ral. It isn’t much fun to anticipate becoming a truth-free nation. Keeping our grip on reality seems to be a high priority for those of us who care.
    This is why GftNC’s links to reports on the fake news industry are so important.
    I know that people don’t want to hear from Hillary Clinton about the election, and her comment about the DNC’s lack of data, compared to the data collection and social manipulation project of Cambridge Analytica, but that’s what we face now. Scary as hell.

  644. You’re welcome, ral. It isn’t much fun to anticipate becoming a truth-free nation. Keeping our grip on reality seems to be a high priority for those of us who care.
    This is why GftNC’s links to reports on the fake news industry are so important.
    I know that people don’t want to hear from Hillary Clinton about the election, and her comment about the DNC’s lack of data, compared to the data collection and social manipulation project of Cambridge Analytica, but that’s what we face now. Scary as hell.

  647. Rubin is a conservative. But she was never a Trump fan. Still, she has become progressively (sorry!) more blistering about him.
    Not, IMHO, without cause. But still, it’s good to have conservatives who are willing to stand up and point out the emperor’s lack of attire.

  648. Rubin is a conservative. But she was never a Trump fan. Still, she has become progressively (sorry!) more blistering about him.
    Not, IMHO, without cause. But still, it’s good to have conservatives who are willing to stand up and point out the emperor’s lack of attire.

  655. if only he was a college kid somewhere, then the rest of the GOP could give a fnck about the bile he spouts.
    Don’t understimate the power of the undergrad Illuminati!

  656. if only he was a college kid somewhere, then the rest of the GOP could give a fnck about the bile he spouts.
    Don’t understimate the power of the undergrad Illuminati!

  659. That’s funny, Marty. You hope that everything is normal, despite your middle finger.
    I’ll hope right along with you, but I’m afraid that it’s not.

  660. That’s funny, Marty. You hope that everything is normal, despite your middle finger.
    I’ll hope right along with you, but I’m afraid that it’s not.

  661. A European politician gives an interview on US television without blurting out everything he thinks? In that case everything must be hunky-dory.

  662. A European politician gives an interview on US television without blurting out everything he thinks? In that case everything must be hunky-dory.

  665. Marty, I don’t quite know what you think this transcript really shows. It’s pretty clear that Stoltenberg is very carefully, delicately and diplomatically tiptoeing round the fact that Trump’s statements are alarming, but that the allies are putting the best interpretation on it they possibly can for as long as they can, while hoping to box him in by approvingly quoting such few conventionally appropriate things as he has said. They clearly hope that he would not want to look foolish and inconsistent by contradicting himself. How realistic this hope is is rather open to question, and is probably a function of how long he stays in power, how soon he starts distrusting his advisors (as Bush did with Cheney) and various other factors (“Events dear boy, events”).

  666. Marty, I don’t quite know what you think this transcript really shows. It’s pretty clear that Stoltenberg is very carefully, delicately and diplomatically tiptoeing round the fact that Trump’s statements are alarming, but that the allies are putting the best interpretation on it they possibly can for as long as they can, while hoping to box him in by approvingly quoting such few conventionally appropriate things as he has said. They clearly hope that he would not want to look foolish and inconsistent by contradicting himself. How realistic this hope is is rather open to question, and is probably a function of how long he stays in power, how soon he starts distrusting his advisors (as Bush did with Cheney) and various other factors (“Events dear boy, events”).

  667. This, from the the Count’s link, made me laugh out loud:
    Even Trump’s cartoonish hair, which looks like what you’d get if you put three separate comb-overs into the Large Hadron Collider and smashed them together at the speed of light, seems to be in large part an effort to avoid being laughed at for being bald.
    It’s actually quite Count-esque, to figure out a way to put the Large Hadron Collider and Trump’s hair in the same sentence.

  668. This, from the the Count’s link, made me laugh out loud:
    Even Trump’s cartoonish hair, which looks like what you’d get if you put three separate comb-overs into the Large Hadron Collider and smashed them together at the speed of light, seems to be in large part an effort to avoid being laughed at for being bald.
    It’s actually quite Count-esque, to figure out a way to put the Large Hadron Collider and Trump’s hair in the same sentence.

  669. I should of course have said “as Bush did with Cheney when it was too late”.

  670. I should of course have said “as Bush did with Cheney when it was too late”.

  671. GftNC,
    I suppose you could read it that way. But watching it, and John Dickerson was expecting different answers, it seemed like he was just not thinking it was the end of NATO,
    I was surprised that he talked about the US increasing spending in Europe. Which I hadn’t read or heard anywhere.
    But he seemed pretty unbothered by the situation, if for no other reason than more countries would be achieving their defense spending targets.

  672. GftNC,
    I suppose you could read it that way. But watching it, and John Dickerson was expecting different answers, it seemed like he was just not thinking it was the end of NATO,
    I was surprised that he talked about the US increasing spending in Europe. Which I hadn’t read or heard anywhere.
    But he seemed pretty unbothered by the situation, if for no other reason than more countries would be achieving their defense spending targets.

  673. wj, I’m not aware of disproportionally calling people nutcases, though in these times that might be a forgivable offense.
    RE Rubin, you can do your own research, hint: Breivik / Gilad Shalit

  674. wj, I’m not aware of disproportionally calling people nutcases, though in these times that might be a forgivable offense.
    RE Rubin, you can do your own research, hint: Breivik / Gilad Shalit

  677. Regarding Rubin et al resembling human beings:
    http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/06/the-nevertrumpers-still-waging-war-on-twitter?mbid=social_twitter
    Every time I hear Erick Erickson’s words against Donald trump construed as the former possessing a soul, I feel like I’m being hired out as the walker of Hitler’s beloved dogs.
    That any of these people are still around to criticize trump, the apotheosis of their fever dreams these many decades, is mere evidence of terrible measures I didn’t get around to.
    That trump has found a niche on the shithead/asshole continuum that Erickson et al had not yet plumbed when they had the chance can only be described as akin to the lack of thoroughness on the part of a plumber who did a half-assed job cleaning out the Nation’s septic tanks and keeps getting paid for their service.
    Meanwhile, local pigeon flock shits all over city statuary and public fountains every morning. Pigeon spokesdummy accuses city fathers of obsession with pigeon shit:
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/kellyanne-conway-trump-twitter-london-attacks

  678. Regarding Rubin et al resembling human beings:
    http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/06/the-nevertrumpers-still-waging-war-on-twitter?mbid=social_twitter
    Every time I hear Erick Erickson’s words against Donald trump construed as the former possessing a soul, I feel like I’m being hired out as the walker of Hitler’s beloved dogs.
    That any of these people are still around to criticize trump, the apotheosis of their fever dreams these many decades, is mere evidence of terrible measures I didn’t get around to.
    That trump has found a niche on the shithead/asshole continuum that Erickson et al had not yet plumbed when they had the chance can only be described as akin to the lack of thoroughness on the part of a plumber who did a half-assed job cleaning out the Nation’s septic tanks and keeps getting paid for their service.
    Meanwhile, local pigeon flock shits all over city statuary and public fountains every morning. Pigeon spokesdummy accuses city fathers of obsession with pigeon shit:
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/kellyanne-conway-trump-twitter-london-attacks

  679. But consider, Count. A lot of those never-Trump folks are attacking Trump, and his supporters, in exactly the same terms and for exactly the same reasons that you are. They may have a lot of other drawbacks. But it would seem they are at least able to see a significant part of the world the same way you do.
    And, considering the numbers of Trump fans that are still with us, it really is a significant part of the world that they are seeing that way.

  680. But consider, Count. A lot of those never-Trump folks are attacking Trump, and his supporters, in exactly the same terms and for exactly the same reasons that you are. They may have a lot of other drawbacks. But it would seem they are at least able to see a significant part of the world the same way you do.
    And, considering the numbers of Trump fans that are still with us, it really is a significant part of the world that they are seeing that way.

  683. Again, open thread. Tonight one of the victims of the London attack was named as Canadian, Chrissie Archibald. Her family issued this statement which was read out on the news. For some reason, possibly exhaustion, the last sentence struck me as incredibly moving:

    “She had room in her heart for everyone and believed strongly that every person was to be valued and respected,” they said.
    “She lived this belief working in a shelter for the homeless until she moved to Europe to be with her fiancé. She would have had no understanding of the callous cruelty that caused her death.
    “Please honour her by making your community a better place. Volunteer your time and labour or donate to a homeless shelter. Tell them Chrissy sent you.”

  684. Again, open thread. Tonight one of the victims of the London attack was named as Canadian, Chrissie Archibald. Her family issued this statement which was read out on the news. For some reason, possibly exhaustion, the last sentence struck me as incredibly moving:

    “She had room in her heart for everyone and believed strongly that every person was to be valued and respected,” they said.
    “She lived this belief working in a shelter for the homeless until she moved to Europe to be with her fiancé. She would have had no understanding of the callous cruelty that caused her death.
    “Please honour her by making your community a better place. Volunteer your time and labour or donate to a homeless shelter. Tell them Chrissy sent you.”

  687. On the first page of this thread I wrote that “it’s not that we’re affronted by his relentless boorishness, though we are”.
    Now Trump’s chosen response to the Borough Market attacks is to launch a lying twitter attack on Sadiq Khan.
    When it comes to the response to Saturday’s outrage, party politics are secondary. In so far as British support matters to the USA, this act of boorishness will have consequences.

  688. On the first page of this thread I wrote that “it’s not that we’re affronted by his relentless boorishness, though we are”.
    Now Trump’s chosen response to the Borough Market attacks is to launch a lying twitter attack on Sadiq Khan.
    When it comes to the response to Saturday’s outrage, party politics are secondary. In so far as British support matters to the USA, this act of boorishness will have consequences.

  689. In so far as British support matters to the USA, this act of boorishness will have consequences.
    Sadly, I think the cake is baked. People who are going to defend Trump, whatever happens, are a significant minority of the American people. Those of us who relentlessly tried to keep him out of office are the majority of the population. Some people are regretting not working harder. [Plus we’re learning more about the actual “democratic election” which isn’t so positive.]
    I don’t blame the world for dumping whatever shnt on us we seem to deserve. But please keep in mind that most of us are trying to figure out what the hell to do. Obviously, the Republicans have pulled an anti-Democratic coup. I hope they quickly feel the pain. (And whoever needs to “feel the Bern” also does so.)

  690. In so far as British support matters to the USA, this act of boorishness will have consequences.
    Sadly, I think the cake is baked. People who are going to defend Trump, whatever happens, are a significant minority of the American people. Those of us who relentlessly tried to keep him out of office are the majority of the population. Some people are regretting not working harder. [Plus we’re learning more about the actual “democratic election” which isn’t so positive.]
    I don’t blame the world for dumping whatever shnt on us we seem to deserve. But please keep in mind that most of us are trying to figure out what the hell to do. Obviously, the Republicans have pulled an anti-Democratic coup. I hope they quickly feel the pain. (And whoever needs to “feel the Bern” also does so.)

  691. by all means, feel free to be affronted by his relentless boorishness.
    when we get to the point that it’s normal, we’re done.

  692. by all means, feel free to be affronted by his relentless boorishness.
    when we get to the point that it’s normal, we’re done.

  693. Such a deal:
    http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/06/getcher-fake-news-right-here.html
    Meanwhile:
    https://www.balloon-juice.com/2017/06/05/russiagate-open-thread-reality-winner-leaks-to-the-intercept/
    Rosenstein said of the arrest:
    “Releasing classified material without authorization threatens our nation’s security and undermines public faith in government,”
    He then issued federal arrest warrants for Donald trump and roughly 65 million fellow traveling Americans, most of them republicans, and ordered scaffolding erected around the reflecting pond in Washington D.C. to commence their mass hangings for treason, sedition, and the organized and flagrant undermining of public faith in government undertaken by the accused over the past 45 years.

  694. Such a deal:
    http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/06/getcher-fake-news-right-here.html
    Meanwhile:
    https://www.balloon-juice.com/2017/06/05/russiagate-open-thread-reality-winner-leaks-to-the-intercept/
    Rosenstein said of the arrest:
    “Releasing classified material without authorization threatens our nation’s security and undermines public faith in government,”
    He then issued federal arrest warrants for Donald trump and roughly 65 million fellow traveling Americans, most of them republicans, and ordered scaffolding erected around the reflecting pond in Washington D.C. to commence their mass hangings for treason, sedition, and the organized and flagrant undermining of public faith in government undertaken by the accused over the past 45 years.

  697. In response to Jack Posobiec (who he?)’s tweet:
    There’s never been a terrorist attack at a Nascar race. Nascar fans are all armed. Draw your own conclusions
    the truly perfect English response:
    There’s never been a terrorist attack at an English cricket match. English cricket fans drink tea and clap. Draw your own conclusions.

  698. In response to Jack Posobiec (who he?)’s tweet:
    There’s never been a terrorist attack at a Nascar race. Nascar fans are all armed. Draw your own conclusions
    the truly perfect English response:
    There’s never been a terrorist attack at an English cricket match. English cricket fans drink tea and clap. Draw your own conclusions.

  699. There’s never been a terrorist attack at a Nascar race. Nascar fans are all armed. Draw your own conclusions
    Jack Posobiec must’ve been kidding, or just wrong.

    Prohibited Items
    For your safety and well-being, Charlotte Motor Speedway asks that certain rules and regulations be followed;
    Coolers may be brought in by guests until one hour after the start of the race
    No coolers or backpacks larger than 14″ by 14″ by 14″
    No umbrellas of any kind are allowed in the grandstands, suites or The Speedway Club
    No glass containers
    Strollers are allowed inside the gates, but are not allowed in the grandstands
    No pets, except service animals
    No weapons, including, but not limited to, firearms, knives and impact weapons

    http://www.charlottemotorspeedway.com/fans/policies_regulations/

  700. There’s never been a terrorist attack at a Nascar race. Nascar fans are all armed. Draw your own conclusions
    Jack Posobiec must’ve been kidding, or just wrong.

    Prohibited Items
    For your safety and well-being, Charlotte Motor Speedway asks that certain rules and regulations be followed;
    Coolers may be brought in by guests until one hour after the start of the race
    No coolers or backpacks larger than 14″ by 14″ by 14″
    No umbrellas of any kind are allowed in the grandstands, suites or The Speedway Club
    No glass containers
    Strollers are allowed inside the gates, but are not allowed in the grandstands
    No pets, except service animals
    No weapons, including, but not limited to, firearms, knives and impact weapons

    http://www.charlottemotorspeedway.com/fans/policies_regulations/

  703. As my pappy always told me, it’s the speed that kills:
    http://savannahnow.com/stories/111201/SPTracingdeaths.shtml#.WTawRdy1upo
    The NRA sponsors workplace killings, except at its own headquarters, which seems an oversight. Orlando, the most recent.
    I suspect Narcan is on hand at NASCAR races, given the pathologies of some of its fan base:
    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/06/05/the-addicts-next-door
    Carnage, as trump might say.
    Why doesn’t NASCAR convert all of its racing vehicles to coal-powered steam engineering, so these people can have their jobs back?

  704. As my pappy always told me, it’s the speed that kills:
    http://savannahnow.com/stories/111201/SPTracingdeaths.shtml#.WTawRdy1upo
    The NRA sponsors workplace killings, except at its own headquarters, which seems an oversight. Orlando, the most recent.
    I suspect Narcan is on hand at NASCAR races, given the pathologies of some of its fan base:
    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/06/05/the-addicts-next-door
    Carnage, as trump might say.
    Why doesn’t NASCAR convert all of its racing vehicles to coal-powered steam engineering, so these people can have their jobs back?

  709. I would really appreciate it if ya’ll wouldn’t pick on NASCAR. It is the greatest sport in the world. I can sleep for two hours, wake up and they are still going around in the same circle, often in the same order. On the other hand, in person it is all sound and fury with lots of individual driving battles that are fun to watch.
    Or so I am told.

  710. I would really appreciate it if ya’ll wouldn’t pick on NASCAR. It is the greatest sport in the world. I can sleep for two hours, wake up and they are still going around in the same circle, often in the same order. On the other hand, in person it is all sound and fury with lots of individual driving battles that are fun to watch.
    Or so I am told.

  711. I do believe GFTNC posted a link to Bob Dylan’s Nobel acceptance speech on another thread, but it is worth a revisit.
    http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/2016/dylan-lecture.html
    Of particular note in the lecture, and this is where I reveal a “conservative” side of myself, though it is the basis of the liberal arts now maligned by one side and ignored by the other, is a review of the canonical literature he absorbed via his formal schooling and made, though certainly not exclusively, the bones and cadences of his songs.
    All of these books referred to by Dylan, and thousands more, should be required reading in all schools and available to all students regardless of their academic tracks from an early age and revisited often until the day we die if we want to be fully-formed human beings.
    Further, I’m not a Christian nor even a believer, but the Bible should be read as well, even in public schools, not as the cheap cult, science-denying propaganda the dumb shits would have it be, but only so that we can know, for example, what the titles alone of William Faulkner refer to.
    It’s like learning to talk, and Dylan is one good talker.
    None of the teaching of the western canon, as it is unfortunately referred to, need exclude the foundational religious and literary texts of other cultures either, because that would be a decision that we must be narrowly, but only partly stupid.
    So there.
    trump’s people should review “Moby Dick” and reflect on the whirlpool so they can get an inkling of why they are experiencing that spinning, sucking feeling.

  712. I do believe GFTNC posted a link to Bob Dylan’s Nobel acceptance speech on another thread, but it is worth a revisit.
    http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/2016/dylan-lecture.html
    Of particular note in the lecture, and this is where I reveal a “conservative” side of myself, though it is the basis of the liberal arts now maligned by one side and ignored by the other, is a review of the canonical literature he absorbed via his formal schooling and made, though certainly not exclusively, the bones and cadences of his songs.
    All of these books referred to by Dylan, and thousands more, should be required reading in all schools and available to all students regardless of their academic tracks from an early age and revisited often until the day we die if we want to be fully-formed human beings.
    Further, I’m not a Christian nor even a believer, but the Bible should be read as well, even in public schools, not as the cheap cult, science-denying propaganda the dumb shits would have it be, but only so that we can know, for example, what the titles alone of William Faulkner refer to.
    It’s like learning to talk, and Dylan is one good talker.
    None of the teaching of the western canon, as it is unfortunately referred to, need exclude the foundational religious and literary texts of other cultures either, because that would be a decision that we must be narrowly, but only partly stupid.
    So there.
    trump’s people should review “Moby Dick” and reflect on the whirlpool so they can get an inkling of why they are experiencing that spinning, sucking feeling.

  713. I’m with you for the most part, Count. Funny, just the other day I dug out a copy of the King James Bible to dip into that language again.
    When my kids were little and I would read out loud to them, I used to chuckle over the frequency of jokes and sly references that only someone with a reasonably classical/old-fashioned education would get, i.e., an adult and not a five-year-old. Whoever was writing that stuff was having a good time.
    I say “for the most part” because I have been very close to a couple of people who were amazing in their way (e.g. being able to fix clocks and engines and gizmos without really ever having been taught), but who weren’t the least bit bookish. But that’s another big discussion! Good thing we’ll never run out of topics.

  714. I’m with you for the most part, Count. Funny, just the other day I dug out a copy of the King James Bible to dip into that language again.
    When my kids were little and I would read out loud to them, I used to chuckle over the frequency of jokes and sly references that only someone with a reasonably classical/old-fashioned education would get, i.e., an adult and not a five-year-old. Whoever was writing that stuff was having a good time.
    I say “for the most part” because I have been very close to a couple of people who were amazing in their way (e.g. being able to fix clocks and engines and gizmos without really ever having been taught), but who weren’t the least bit bookish. But that’s another big discussion! Good thing we’ll never run out of topics.

  719. I think kids, even the bookworms, should learn how to fix clocks and engines too in school, if possible.
    Totally agree. 🙂
    Also too, conflict resolution management exploration, or whatever they’re calling it nowadays, I’ve lost track. Maybe they’re calling it anti-bullying now.
    Also, politics, that is, day-to-day interpersonal / group / community politics, not necessarily or just electoral politics. I needed that so much more than I needed algebra class…. (I loved algebra above all else, but for that reason I didn’t really need the class.)
    And a pony.

  720. I think kids, even the bookworms, should learn how to fix clocks and engines too in school, if possible.
    Totally agree. 🙂
    Also too, conflict resolution management exploration, or whatever they’re calling it nowadays, I’ve lost track. Maybe they’re calling it anti-bullying now.
    Also, politics, that is, day-to-day interpersonal / group / community politics, not necessarily or just electoral politics. I needed that so much more than I needed algebra class…. (I loved algebra above all else, but for that reason I didn’t really need the class.)
    And a pony.

  721. I used to chuckle over the frequency of jokes and sly references that only someone with a reasonably classical/old-fashioned education would get
    Half of the jokes in the Bugs Bunny oeuvre will go over your head if you don’t have some kind of grounding in the classics.
    Bugs makes fun of it all, but if you don’t know what he’s making fun of, you don’t get the joke.
    I remember reading an account of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire. One of the young women — poor, tenement-dwelling immigrant — left a diary behind in which she talks about reading the big Russian novelists.
    Cigar factories in Cuba used to, maybe still do, have a person on staff to read to the folks who are rolling the cigars. The classics, the newspaper, no doubt some long boring screeds from Uncle Fidel. But, also, the classics. All day long.
    That’s culture. Shared narratives, a common basis for perceiving and understanding the world.
    We live in impoverished times. We’re losing our shared stories. How are we ever going to talk with each other?
    “The world is a hellish place, and bad writing is destroying the quality of our suffering”, says Tom Waits.
    We have the best gizmos, and they are full of solipsism, rage, and pornography.
    And cats.
    Anyway.
    When I was a kid my old man used to take me and my brother to some scrub-pine joint out in the nether end of Long Island to watch stock car races and demolition derbies. This was long before NASCAR, it was a bunch of locals cobbling raggedy jalopies together out of junkyard finds and then driving them right into the dirt on the weekend.
    Tape up the windows, or just bust the windows out, and go for it.
    It was really really loud, and they had hot dogs and ice cream. Cars would crash into each other and, somehow, nobody got hurt.
    It was a blast.

  722. I used to chuckle over the frequency of jokes and sly references that only someone with a reasonably classical/old-fashioned education would get
    Half of the jokes in the Bugs Bunny oeuvre will go over your head if you don’t have some kind of grounding in the classics.
    Bugs makes fun of it all, but if you don’t know what he’s making fun of, you don’t get the joke.
    I remember reading an account of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire. One of the young women — poor, tenement-dwelling immigrant — left a diary behind in which she talks about reading the big Russian novelists.
    Cigar factories in Cuba used to, maybe still do, have a person on staff to read to the folks who are rolling the cigars. The classics, the newspaper, no doubt some long boring screeds from Uncle Fidel. But, also, the classics. All day long.
    That’s culture. Shared narratives, a common basis for perceiving and understanding the world.
    We live in impoverished times. We’re losing our shared stories. How are we ever going to talk with each other?
    “The world is a hellish place, and bad writing is destroying the quality of our suffering”, says Tom Waits.
    We have the best gizmos, and they are full of solipsism, rage, and pornography.
    And cats.
    Anyway.
    When I was a kid my old man used to take me and my brother to some scrub-pine joint out in the nether end of Long Island to watch stock car races and demolition derbies. This was long before NASCAR, it was a bunch of locals cobbling raggedy jalopies together out of junkyard finds and then driving them right into the dirt on the weekend.
    Tape up the windows, or just bust the windows out, and go for it.
    It was really really loud, and they had hot dogs and ice cream. Cars would crash into each other and, somehow, nobody got hurt.
    It was a blast.

  727. “We have the best gizmos, and they are full of solipsism, rage, and pornography.
    And cats.”
    This is how 21st Century American civilization ends, not with a bang, not with a whimper, but with a MEOW.

  728. “We have the best gizmos, and they are full of solipsism, rage, and pornography.
    And cats.”
    This is how 21st Century American civilization ends, not with a bang, not with a whimper, but with a MEOW.

  729. I draw the line at Algebra.
    Says the guy who linked a blog post referencing the Intercept.

  730. I draw the line at Algebra.
    Says the guy who linked a blog post referencing the Intercept.

  731. I can sleep for two hours, wake up and they are still going around in the same circle, often in the same order.
    It’s definitely one of the “there’s no accounting for taste. (Or lack of it.)” deals. I’ve just never grasped the interest in racing . . . whether it’s cars, motorcycles, or horses.
    Well, at least I’ve learned to tolerate my wife’s fascination with it. Took a couple of decades, but I can ignore it on the TV now.
    On the other hand, if I’m watching a baseball game, she still generally finds something to do elsewhere in the house.

  732. I can sleep for two hours, wake up and they are still going around in the same circle, often in the same order.
    It’s definitely one of the “there’s no accounting for taste. (Or lack of it.)” deals. I’ve just never grasped the interest in racing . . . whether it’s cars, motorcycles, or horses.
    Well, at least I’ve learned to tolerate my wife’s fascination with it. Took a couple of decades, but I can ignore it on the TV now.
    On the other hand, if I’m watching a baseball game, she still generally finds something to do elsewhere in the house.

  733. Yeah, but Jimmy Piersall, now kaputnik, at least had the wit to run out a home run facing backwards around the bases.
    Show me one single glint of humor in a road race.
    Of course, demolition derbies ARE the joke.

  734. Yeah, but Jimmy Piersall, now kaputnik, at least had the wit to run out a home run facing backwards around the bases.
    Show me one single glint of humor in a road race.
    Of course, demolition derbies ARE the joke.

  735. From Dylan’s Nobel speech:

    When Starbuck tells Ahab that he should let bygones be bygones, the angry captain snaps back, “Speak not to me of blasphemy, man, I’d strike the sun if it insulted me.”

    Is it just me, or does that sound like a perfect encapsulation of President Trump’s approach to the world>

  736. From Dylan’s Nobel speech:

    When Starbuck tells Ahab that he should let bygones be bygones, the angry captain snaps back, “Speak not to me of blasphemy, man, I’d strike the sun if it insulted me.”

    Is it just me, or does that sound like a perfect encapsulation of President Trump’s approach to the world>

  737. “We have the best gizmos, and they are full of solipsism, rage, and pornography.
    And cats.”
    I keep a little moleskin diary of quotes and that one will be going in there.

  738. “We have the best gizmos, and they are full of solipsism, rage, and pornography.
    And cats.”
    I keep a little moleskin diary of quotes and that one will be going in there.

  739. I think kids, even the bookworms, should learn how to fix clocks and engines too in school, if possible.
    Dropping important bits out of the school curriculum has been happening for quite a while. When I was in high school, the classes were separated into 3 tracks. In addition to the main track, there was the “honors” track (for those aiming for Cal, Stanford, Harvard, etc.) and the “general” track (for those expecting to just do a couple of years a junior college.**
    But one year, my schedule was such that the only class that would fit was “General Business.” Kids where weren’t academically inclined learned about everything from accounting to compound interest to the types of insurance. It was, in retrospect, probably the most valuable class I had in my entire high school career. (Yes, even more valuable than the shop classes.)
    Then, it was dropping out of most student’s knowledge base. Does anybody get taught that stuff any more.
    ** Yeah, it was that kind of (public!) school: 99% of the seniors were in college the following year. Just a little mid-century farm town, beginning to turn into a suburb. But everybody went to college, with about the same pressure as everybody in 8th grade going to high school the next year.

  740. I think kids, even the bookworms, should learn how to fix clocks and engines too in school, if possible.
    Dropping important bits out of the school curriculum has been happening for quite a while. When I was in high school, the classes were separated into 3 tracks. In addition to the main track, there was the “honors” track (for those aiming for Cal, Stanford, Harvard, etc.) and the “general” track (for those expecting to just do a couple of years a junior college.**
    But one year, my schedule was such that the only class that would fit was “General Business.” Kids where weren’t academically inclined learned about everything from accounting to compound interest to the types of insurance. It was, in retrospect, probably the most valuable class I had in my entire high school career. (Yes, even more valuable than the shop classes.)
    Then, it was dropping out of most student’s knowledge base. Does anybody get taught that stuff any more.
    ** Yeah, it was that kind of (public!) school: 99% of the seniors were in college the following year. Just a little mid-century farm town, beginning to turn into a suburb. But everybody went to college, with about the same pressure as everybody in 8th grade going to high school the next year.

  741. I don’t know Count, Kyle Busch pulled off pit road without his left rear tire on Sunday, they just didn’t take the time to put the lug nuts on. I found that hilarious, and he’s my favorite driver. Because I love M&M’s.
    The best Sunday afternoon outside football season is when NASCAR, the PGA and the Red Sox or Dodgers are all on TV at the same time.

  742. I don’t know Count, Kyle Busch pulled off pit road without his left rear tire on Sunday, they just didn’t take the time to put the lug nuts on. I found that hilarious, and he’s my favorite driver. Because I love M&M’s.
    The best Sunday afternoon outside football season is when NASCAR, the PGA and the Red Sox or Dodgers are all on TV at the same time.

  743. While reading this, I thought of the phenomenon I learned about in psychology class, whereby people who, for example, have waited in line for a long time to eat in a restaurant are more likely to say their meal was good, regardless of the actual quality of the food, because it justifies their waiting in line.
    (Warning: Leftists at Salon quoting leftist Noam Chomsky)

  744. While reading this, I thought of the phenomenon I learned about in psychology class, whereby people who, for example, have waited in line for a long time to eat in a restaurant are more likely to say their meal was good, regardless of the actual quality of the food, because it justifies their waiting in line.
    (Warning: Leftists at Salon quoting leftist Noam Chomsky)

  747. Decades ago (when I was in college; yes that very long ago) guys with long hair were a huge culture-wars issue. Men with long hair were a sign of the end of the world. But we got over it. Today, nobody bats an eye if I guy has hair down past his shoulders.
    But apparently girls with short hair are still an unacceptable affront to all that is right and proper. At least in some places.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/06/05/a-girl-with-short-hair-was-kicked-out-of-a-soccer-tournament-because-she-looks-like-a-boy/?utm_term=.ce8f96134db2

  748. Decades ago (when I was in college; yes that very long ago) guys with long hair were a huge culture-wars issue. Men with long hair were a sign of the end of the world. But we got over it. Today, nobody bats an eye if I guy has hair down past his shoulders.
    But apparently girls with short hair are still an unacceptable affront to all that is right and proper. At least in some places.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/06/05/a-girl-with-short-hair-was-kicked-out-of-a-soccer-tournament-because-she-looks-like-a-boy/?utm_term=.ce8f96134db2

  749. he’s my favorite driver. Because I love M&M’s.
    actually, this makes complete sense to me.

  750. he’s my favorite driver. Because I love M&M’s.
    actually, this makes complete sense to me.

  751. But apparently girls with short hair are still an unacceptable affront to all that is right and proper. At least in some places.
    J3sus H, the world is full of a$$holes.
    When my daughter was seven and a spectator at her brother’s first “minor league” baseball game, she declared that next year, when she was old enough, she was going to play baseball with her brother instead of softball with her girl friends.
    The coach’s wife (who was on the board of the league) was sitting near us in the stands and started going on and on about how girls couldn’t play with boys, it was too dangerous, the league had lawyers, yada yada yada.
    This woman apparently didn’t know that the issue had already been decided, and not in her favor, but luckily we didn’t have to resort to lawyers. At the next game, after he’d heard about the conversation, the coach told my daughter she could play for him any day.
    I gotta give the wife credit: when she found out she was wrong, she apologized forthrightly. A rare occurrence, in my experience.
    My daughter played with the boys for two or three years, then switched to softball. Maybe the Count will like the fact that she was never thrown out stealing second. Not only was she fast (including faster than all the boys when she played with them), she was sneaky. Those softball girls just couldn’t figure it out.
    *****
    Other sports commentary: I can’t imagine what’s fun about watching cars go ’round and ’round a track for hours. But I have watched parts of a few NASCAR races with my brother (one of those people who can fix anything), and I learned a lot from him about the engines, the pit crews, etc., plus a bit about strategy. Sort of like watching baseball with a good pitcher.

  752. But apparently girls with short hair are still an unacceptable affront to all that is right and proper. At least in some places.
    J3sus H, the world is full of a$$holes.
    When my daughter was seven and a spectator at her brother’s first “minor league” baseball game, she declared that next year, when she was old enough, she was going to play baseball with her brother instead of softball with her girl friends.
    The coach’s wife (who was on the board of the league) was sitting near us in the stands and started going on and on about how girls couldn’t play with boys, it was too dangerous, the league had lawyers, yada yada yada.
    This woman apparently didn’t know that the issue had already been decided, and not in her favor, but luckily we didn’t have to resort to lawyers. At the next game, after he’d heard about the conversation, the coach told my daughter she could play for him any day.
    I gotta give the wife credit: when she found out she was wrong, she apologized forthrightly. A rare occurrence, in my experience.
    My daughter played with the boys for two or three years, then switched to softball. Maybe the Count will like the fact that she was never thrown out stealing second. Not only was she fast (including faster than all the boys when she played with them), she was sneaky. Those softball girls just couldn’t figure it out.
    *****
    Other sports commentary: I can’t imagine what’s fun about watching cars go ’round and ’round a track for hours. But I have watched parts of a few NASCAR races with my brother (one of those people who can fix anything), and I learned a lot from him about the engines, the pit crews, etc., plus a bit about strategy. Sort of like watching baseball with a good pitcher.

  755. Women and men, who have sculptured skulls can look very striking and attractive with buzzcuts or shaved heads.
    I’m afraid that my shaved head would look like a dropped baked potato.

  756. Women and men, who have sculptured skulls can look very striking and attractive with buzzcuts or shaved heads.
    I’m afraid that my shaved head would look like a dropped baked potato.

  759. “Sort of like watching baseball with a good pitcher.”
    I like this, strategy and team execution both matter, born out by how often the fastest car doesn’t win.

  760. “Sort of like watching baseball with a good pitcher.”
    I like this, strategy and team execution both matter, born out by how often the fastest car doesn’t win.

  761. I’m with you for the most part, Count. Funny, just the other day I dug out a copy of the King James Bible to dip into that language again.
    Yup, the Authorised Version of the King James Bible is a masterpiece of English literature, no doubt about it. Ditto Cranmer’s Book of Common Prayer, which I assume you guys got too, probably still in use in Episcopalian churches.
    Apart from that, Count, I keep a moleskine book for favourite quotations too. In England, at least in the past, these were quaintly known as “Commonplace books”, but there’s nothing commonplace about some of the stuff in mine and I bet in yours too. For years my favourite quotation, from the Marginal Notes of Lord Macaulay selected by his nephew, which I am so happy to share here, has been this, in particular the part in quotation marks in bold:

    He enjoyed and valued Cicero’s Letters to a degree that he found difficult to express. The document which he most admired, in the whole collection of the correspondence, was Caesar’s answer to Cicero’s message of gratitude for the humanity which the conqueror had displayed
    towards those political adversaries who had fallen into his power at the surrender of Corfinium. It contained, (so Macaulay used to say,) the finest sentence ever written:
    “I triumph and rejoice that my action should have obtained your approval. Nor am I disturbed when I hear it said that those, whom I have sent off alive and free, will again bear arms against me; for there is nothing which I so much covet as that I should be like myself and they like themselves.”
    (“Meum factum probari abs te, trium-
    pho, gaudeo. Neque illiid me movet quod ii, qui me
    dimissi sunt, discessisse dicuntur ut mihi rursus helium
    injerrent ; nihil enim malo qiiam et me mei similem
    esse, et illos sui.’) * Opposite that sentence appear the
    words: “Noble fellow!”

    It is astonishing how often this concept is useful; it takes the curse off so much behaviour that would otherwise be appalling or alarming – you just have to murmur to yourself “there is nothing I so much covet”, and the terrible behaviour immediately has at least some compensation to it.

  762. I’m with you for the most part, Count. Funny, just the other day I dug out a copy of the King James Bible to dip into that language again.
    Yup, the Authorised Version of the King James Bible is a masterpiece of English literature, no doubt about it. Ditto Cranmer’s Book of Common Prayer, which I assume you guys got too, probably still in use in Episcopalian churches.
    Apart from that, Count, I keep a moleskine book for favourite quotations too. In England, at least in the past, these were quaintly known as “Commonplace books”, but there’s nothing commonplace about some of the stuff in mine and I bet in yours too. For years my favourite quotation, from the Marginal Notes of Lord Macaulay selected by his nephew, which I am so happy to share here, has been this, in particular the part in quotation marks in bold:

    He enjoyed and valued Cicero’s Letters to a degree that he found difficult to express. The document which he most admired, in the whole collection of the correspondence, was Caesar’s answer to Cicero’s message of gratitude for the humanity which the conqueror had displayed
    towards those political adversaries who had fallen into his power at the surrender of Corfinium. It contained, (so Macaulay used to say,) the finest sentence ever written:
    “I triumph and rejoice that my action should have obtained your approval. Nor am I disturbed when I hear it said that those, whom I have sent off alive and free, will again bear arms against me; for there is nothing which I so much covet as that I should be like myself and they like themselves.”
    (“Meum factum probari abs te, trium-
    pho, gaudeo. Neque illiid me movet quod ii, qui me
    dimissi sunt, discessisse dicuntur ut mihi rursus helium
    injerrent ; nihil enim malo qiiam et me mei similem
    esse, et illos sui.’) * Opposite that sentence appear the
    words: “Noble fellow!”

    It is astonishing how often this concept is useful; it takes the curse off so much behaviour that would otherwise be appalling or alarming – you just have to murmur to yourself “there is nothing I so much covet”, and the terrible behaviour immediately has at least some compensation to it.

  763. GftNC: If you haven’t seen them, there’s an excellent collection of commonplaces on the front page of Making Light. Just search for “Commonplaces”.

  764. GftNC: If you haven’t seen them, there’s an excellent collection of commonplaces on the front page of Making Light. Just search for “Commonplaces”.

  765. p.s. I will be putting “Damn John Jay” etc in my commonplace book as soon as I get back to London. I love it.

  766. p.s. I will be putting “Damn John Jay” etc in my commonplace book as soon as I get back to London. I love it.

  767. Thanks for that Jim Parish, some good stuff, only slightly offputting that so many of the quotations are by one of the blog’s headliners. However, it looks like an interesting blog, so I will check it out at my leisure when not on the accursed phone.

  768. Thanks for that Jim Parish, some good stuff, only slightly offputting that so many of the quotations are by one of the blog’s headliners. However, it looks like an interesting blog, so I will check it out at my leisure when not on the accursed phone.

  775. This time, it appears that United may have achieved more than just another black eye. Federal law requires airports to accommodate musicians who want to carry their instruments with them in the airplane’s cabin. And United’s staff not only resorted to violence, but appears to have been in violation of that law.
    No doubt another round of training will be announced. But the United CEO must be wondering whether he can implement a wholesale staff replacement. Assuming he can come up with a test for whether a would be employee is a decent human being.

  776. This time, it appears that United may have achieved more than just another black eye. Federal law requires airports to accommodate musicians who want to carry their instruments with them in the airplane’s cabin. And United’s staff not only resorted to violence, but appears to have been in violation of that law.
    No doubt another round of training will be announced. But the United CEO must be wondering whether he can implement a wholesale staff replacement. Assuming he can come up with a test for whether a would be employee is a decent human being.

  779. United has been a hive of scum and villainy for decades.
    Yes, the CEO deserves some blame, but even during the few years when United was “employee owned”, they were also that way.
    I guess their “corporate culture” is “authoritarian asshole”.
    Not sure why people would defend that, unless they just like authoritarian assholes.

  780. United has been a hive of scum and villainy for decades.
    Yes, the CEO deserves some blame, but even during the few years when United was “employee owned”, they were also that way.
    I guess their “corporate culture” is “authoritarian asshole”.
    Not sure why people would defend that, unless they just like authoritarian assholes.

  783. That woman with the violin in Nigel’s 1:26 link ended up on American after getting screwed by United.
    Badmouth United all you want, they deserve it, but I’d stay grounded forever, wherever I ended up, sooner than ever do business with American Airlines.
    My adventure with American was long enough ago so that no one had cell phones to record the mess, but the very abbreviated version is that they lied to me about a reservation (long story in its own right), took my luggage from Logan to England without me then lied about that, spent an hour and a half giving me the runaround as to where my luggage was, including an offer to go look for it in a back room if I’d pay the agent I was talking to some cash, and on and on. At least one of the gate agents laughed and sneered at me through this nightmare…
    I got to England a day late (on Continental), at a different airport from where American had taken my luggage, and in the middle of an IRA threat against all the airports around London.
    What an overseas travel adventure!!!
    Bottom line: never American. Sounds like never United, too, and maybe no American carriers at all, ever? I can drive anywhere I want to go in the USA, after all, if I devote enough time to the project. “See the USA in your Chevrolet” was a meme of my childhood…..

  784. That woman with the violin in Nigel’s 1:26 link ended up on American after getting screwed by United.
    Badmouth United all you want, they deserve it, but I’d stay grounded forever, wherever I ended up, sooner than ever do business with American Airlines.
    My adventure with American was long enough ago so that no one had cell phones to record the mess, but the very abbreviated version is that they lied to me about a reservation (long story in its own right), took my luggage from Logan to England without me then lied about that, spent an hour and a half giving me the runaround as to where my luggage was, including an offer to go look for it in a back room if I’d pay the agent I was talking to some cash, and on and on. At least one of the gate agents laughed and sneered at me through this nightmare…
    I got to England a day late (on Continental), at a different airport from where American had taken my luggage, and in the middle of an IRA threat against all the airports around London.
    What an overseas travel adventure!!!
    Bottom line: never American. Sounds like never United, too, and maybe no American carriers at all, ever? I can drive anywhere I want to go in the USA, after all, if I devote enough time to the project. “See the USA in your Chevrolet” was a meme of my childhood…..

  785. I think this could be figured out:
    It will definitely be interesting to see what happens if it goes anywhere.

  786. I think this could be figured out:
    It will definitely be interesting to see what happens if it goes anywhere.

  787. “See the USA in your Chevrolet” was a meme of my childhood…..
    TSA security theater and other difficulties of air travel have likely caused more deaths than any terrorist by causing people to use less safe means of travel.

  788. “See the USA in your Chevrolet” was a meme of my childhood…..
    TSA security theater and other difficulties of air travel have likely caused more deaths than any terrorist by causing people to use less safe means of travel.

  789. Presumably the last (as in previous, not final) war against fascism.
    The ongoing war against fascism, apparently.

  790. Presumably the last (as in previous, not final) war against fascism.
    The ongoing war against fascism, apparently.

  791. TSA security theater and other difficulties of air travel have likely caused more deaths than any terrorist by causing people to use less safe means of travel.
    And that’s while the deliberate terrorists haven’t jumped on the fact that TSA’s long security queues make a juicier target than an airplane. And one typically with easy access from a passing car.

  792. TSA security theater and other difficulties of air travel have likely caused more deaths than any terrorist by causing people to use less safe means of travel.
    And that’s while the deliberate terrorists haven’t jumped on the fact that TSA’s long security queues make a juicier target than an airplane. And one typically with easy access from a passing car.

  793. Not sure how the Count has missed this:
    At last night’s debate in the special election for the GA-6 House seat, GOP candidate Karen Handel answered a question about the minimum wage this way:

    This is an example of a fundamental difference between a liberal and a conservative. I do not support a livable wage.”

  794. Not sure how the Count has missed this:
    At last night’s debate in the special election for the GA-6 House seat, GOP candidate Karen Handel answered a question about the minimum wage this way:

    This is an example of a fundamental difference between a liberal and a conservative. I do not support a livable wage.”

  799. It’s hard to find the end of this last open thread, but I guess nobody is wanting to discuss the Russia inquiry. The Comey hearing is tomorrow, but today’s intelligence hearings were already freaky, with people refusing to actually say that Trump pressured them to obstruct justice, even though he obviously did. Also the Kamala Harris smackdown was pretty horrible to watch.
    Maybe everyone’s bored.
    But Russia’s misinformation machine, helped along by SCROTUS, has inspired a middle-east crisis against Qatar, our ally. Seems like that will be problematic.
    Today, the Senate investigation has turned into a Trump “obstruction of justice” inquiry (pretty obviously was that, no matter what R’s will claim). But the actual Russia problem (which threatens our entire electoral system – including the legitimacy of our 2016 elections, our news, and our future elections, as well as foreign policy) is sort of a second tier thing.
    Just saying. Has this become a place to escape it all?
    Is another open thread appropriate?

  800. It’s hard to find the end of this last open thread, but I guess nobody is wanting to discuss the Russia inquiry. The Comey hearing is tomorrow, but today’s intelligence hearings were already freaky, with people refusing to actually say that Trump pressured them to obstruct justice, even though he obviously did. Also the Kamala Harris smackdown was pretty horrible to watch.
    Maybe everyone’s bored.
    But Russia’s misinformation machine, helped along by SCROTUS, has inspired a middle-east crisis against Qatar, our ally. Seems like that will be problematic.
    Today, the Senate investigation has turned into a Trump “obstruction of justice” inquiry (pretty obviously was that, no matter what R’s will claim). But the actual Russia problem (which threatens our entire electoral system – including the legitimacy of our 2016 elections, our news, and our future elections, as well as foreign policy) is sort of a second tier thing.
    Just saying. Has this become a place to escape it all?
    Is another open thread appropriate?

  803. Late to the game, and this will get lost in the Comey hearing, but…
    ISTM that if an airline ticket is some sort of contract, facing however many degrees of butterfly effect the court deems warranted in terms of recompense for inconvenienced travelers might be the extra teeth needed to prevent the breaking of teeth and losing of consciousness. Apologies if I missed it and maybe one of you law-talkin’ people can point out why a civil remedy is a stupid idea.
    As for differing realities, I can’t believe anyone can consider Trump even marginally competent for his position. Lifelong NYer, so maybe it’s because I’ve been a witness to his bullsh1ttery for decades, but the shrewd businessman some see has never existed in my world. I’m developing a physical reaction to his voice alone, nevermind the stunning Dunning-Kruger post-Markovic-shoving mugging and reading-time XO-signing spectacles he puts on. It’s not quite at Mary Hart-level seizures. Yet.
    I may have missed the point of this thread. I’ll put my pants back on now.
    Also, what ral said about what russell said.

  804. Late to the game, and this will get lost in the Comey hearing, but…
    ISTM that if an airline ticket is some sort of contract, facing however many degrees of butterfly effect the court deems warranted in terms of recompense for inconvenienced travelers might be the extra teeth needed to prevent the breaking of teeth and losing of consciousness. Apologies if I missed it and maybe one of you law-talkin’ people can point out why a civil remedy is a stupid idea.
    As for differing realities, I can’t believe anyone can consider Trump even marginally competent for his position. Lifelong NYer, so maybe it’s because I’ve been a witness to his bullsh1ttery for decades, but the shrewd businessman some see has never existed in my world. I’m developing a physical reaction to his voice alone, nevermind the stunning Dunning-Kruger post-Markovic-shoving mugging and reading-time XO-signing spectacles he puts on. It’s not quite at Mary Hart-level seizures. Yet.
    I may have missed the point of this thread. I’ll put my pants back on now.
    Also, what ral said about what russell said.

  805. Pete, I can’t stand the sound of his voice either, and I avoid it at almost any cost. (Never watching TV helps.) I also make it a point of honor not to click on any headline that has his name, or any picture of him. During the campaign there would be articles essentially about Hillary, one way or the other, but the picture would be of Candidate Clickbait. At a most visceral level, I don’t see how people could fail to see through him.
    Michael — we’ve had an odd kind of spring in Maine, too. Basically, early May weather has lasted into early June: cool, greener than paradise, lots of gray weather. I could do with a few more sunny days, but I’d take this all summer over 90+ and humid. We’re not going to get that, of course….starting today, it looks like.

  806. Pete, I can’t stand the sound of his voice either, and I avoid it at almost any cost. (Never watching TV helps.) I also make it a point of honor not to click on any headline that has his name, or any picture of him. During the campaign there would be articles essentially about Hillary, one way or the other, but the picture would be of Candidate Clickbait. At a most visceral level, I don’t see how people could fail to see through him.
    Michael — we’ve had an odd kind of spring in Maine, too. Basically, early May weather has lasted into early June: cool, greener than paradise, lots of gray weather. I could do with a few more sunny days, but I’d take this all summer over 90+ and humid. We’re not going to get that, of course….starting today, it looks like.

  807. Lifelong NYer, so maybe it’s because I’ve been a witness to his bullsh1ttery for decades, but the shrewd businessman some see has never existed in my world.
    This New Jerseyite has been saying the same thing again and again. I didn’t grow up in the NYC-media market, but there was enough coverage of AC in the Philly market that I saw plenty of him, not to mention my college years that were spent in the NYC market.
    He’s never been anything but a ham-fisted jackass and a tabloid-news freak show, AFAICT from where I’ve been sitting.

  808. Lifelong NYer, so maybe it’s because I’ve been a witness to his bullsh1ttery for decades, but the shrewd businessman some see has never existed in my world.
    This New Jerseyite has been saying the same thing again and again. I didn’t grow up in the NYC-media market, but there was enough coverage of AC in the Philly market that I saw plenty of him, not to mention my college years that were spent in the NYC market.
    He’s never been anything but a ham-fisted jackass and a tabloid-news freak show, AFAICT from where I’ve been sitting.

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