125 thoughts on “A Clean Slate For Sgrena Speculation and Sparring: open thread”

  1. “Sgrena Speculation and Sparring”
    “‘Grena’?”
    “No! ‘Suhgreenuh'”
    “Maybe ‘Sigrainah’?”

  2. Just a note about something that I read a few minutes ago. If Stan is correct and the car shows few signs of the ~400 rounds that are claimed to have hit it, then it seems unlikely that they were trying for the engine block, as I first surmised, and were therefore shooting to kill.
    Secondly, if the car was indeed going at 100 mph, and the photos that Stan linked to are in fact the car they were in, then that’s some pretty impressive shooting, as only the front window seems to be shot out. And, if the car were going 100 mph, then they did a remarkable job of stopping the car safely, despite everyone in the car being injured and under fire at night in slippery conditions.

  6. Who reported 100 mph? I’ve read 60 Kilometres per hour, not miles per hour. And as I asked on the other thread — how come they don’t shoot out the tires?

  7. That can’t be the car…there are no indications of 300 to 400 bullet holes…what’s up with that?

  8. double+,
    Actually, the window is very much intact (not shot out). I haven’t seen a clear photo of the front of the car, so I can’t comment on the claim that the engine block was being shot at… Here’s a thought – since it’s Sgrena’s claim that there were 300-400 rounds fired, and the car seems to have minimal damage, would you agree that a vast majority of those rounds were warning shots?
    Also what do you make of this: Giuliana told me she collected handfuls of bullets on the seats.?

  10. there’s a very odd phenomenon in all this exchange:
    trying to prove the car was shot out enough to prove the troops used excessive force, while trying to prove it wasn’t shot out so much to prove an assasination attempt, while trying to prove it wasn’t shot out so much to prove they targeted the engine block, while thry to prove it was shot out enough to…etc. etc.

  11. I don’t think it’s much comfort to Mrs Calipari how many shots were fired.
    We know the driver survived, so it’s no surprise if the driver’s side looks fairly intact.

  12. Caption says, “The car in which Sgrena and Calipari were travelling, with the pockmarks of the US bullets. Pictures from the TG1 network.”
    Maybe “traces” would be a better translation than “pockmarks” – anyway, marks are meant – can’t think of a good English word.

  13. “Giuliana told me she collected handfuls of bullets on the seats.?”
    If the front windshield is intact(rear windshield, anyone?), then:
    a) She is not telling the truth or
    b) The bullets entered thru side windows, which goes against targeting the engine block, and indicates pretty accurate aiming at the occupants….except
    c)Calipari had only 2 bullet wounds, which does not square with “handfuls of bullets”…you don’t fire 30 rounds thru a car side window and hit an occupant twice
    d) so Sgrena didn’t collect “handfuls”
    Wait. If you are laying on the seat or flooor of the car maybe a lot of bullets could miss.

  14. voter,
    I don’t think it’s much comfort to Mrs Calipari how many shots were fired.
    You are missing the point here. The point is that 300-400 rounds (if that, in fact, is the number of the rounds fired) were not aimed at the car – as Sgrena claims. Her boyfriend claims that she told him that she scooped handfulls of bullets on the seats. What do you make of that?
    Also, according to Sgrena – Nicola Calipari threw himself on me to protect me and immediately. Did he throw himself onto her from the front seat, or was he sitting in the back with her?

  15. trying to prove the car was shot out enough to prove the troops used excessive force, while trying to prove it wasn’t shot out so much to prove an assasination attempt, while trying to prove it wasn’t shot out so much to prove they targeted the engine block, while thry to prove it was shot out enough to…etc. etc.
    Exactly. At first the 400 shots and “destroyed” car was proof positive it was an assassination attempt. Now a lack of a bullet pocked car is proof positive of an assassination attempt!

  16. Speaking of assassination, didn’t the Warren Commission show that a single bullet can cause multiple and varied wounds in multiple locations?

  17. Speaking of assassination, didn’t the Warren Commission show that a single bullet can cause multiple and varied wounds in multiple locations?
    too funny!

  18. I’m confused by some of what I’ve read. Were there two people in the car or three? If they had a driver what is his account of the incident?
    Has anyone heard anything from the Italian government about when they expect to know anything and let the media know?
    I hope there was a driver. His testimony will be believed by conservatives much more than Sgrena alone.

  20. Mac, in the other thread I said that 400 bullets did not seem consistent with assassination… Don’t think anybody was claiming “proof positive” either way.

  21. Personally I think a civvy in that situation would be almost guaranteed to overestimate bullets fired by at least a factor of two. Why are people so interested in the # of bullets anyway?

  23. Here’s a thought – since it’s Sgrena’s claim that there were 300-400 rounds fired, and the car seems to have minimal damage, would you agree that a vast majority of those rounds were warning shots?
    I’d say that it was at night and probably fairly confusing and traumatic. I doubt that she could say with any accuracy how many shots were fired. I can speculate that if I had been through the same situation, I would have most likly thought that the entire US military force plus the entire insurgency was firing at me. I’m panicky that way.
    Also what do you make of this: Giuliana told me she collected handfuls of bullets on the seats.?
    Dunno, I don’t know the likelihood of that. If she has them, it shouldn’t be hard to display them. But, as I said, if there were less shots fired, then they were targetting the occupants, right?
    What do you make of this from the same interview:

    He was the best. He was a man of great experience. He had driven down that road at least 30 times. Do you think a man like this doesn’t stop at checkpoints?

  24. rilkefan,
    I was being melodramatic to illustrate how absurdly the 400 rounds shifted in rhetorical value.

  25. Double +, that is the part that confuses me. That makes it sound like Calipari was driving, but I could just be interpreting that wrong.

  26. macallan: At first the 400 shots and “destroyed” car was proof positive it was an assassination attempt.
    I know it’s a big thread, Macallan, but if you’re going to throw around snarky comments like that, shouldn’t you at least pretend to read the comments? From yesterdays commentarama, by me:

    I’m not sure that’s the intention, Jes. From what I’ve read, US troops are pretty jumpy about car bombs (I know I would be if I were them). The fact that 400 rounds didn’t kill all of the occupants of the car indicates to me that the intent was to disable the vehicle.

  27. Dunno, I don’t know the likelihood of that.
    Seems really unlikely, or nearly impossible. Bullets would either imbed into the car, shatter on impact, fly through the car, or tragically imbed into a passenger. I doubt that they would magically cease flight and drop harmlessly on the floor and seat.
    Donning our tin foil hats, what if she picked up a dozen shell casings? Which would indicate that someone inside the car was firing a weapon and that would certainly thicken the plot.

  28. “I was being melodramatic to illustrate how absurdly the 400 rounds shifted in rhetorical value.”
    Mac, with respect, melodrama isn’t usually helpful discussing charged matters. Plus occurrence A can indicate something and occurance A” indicate the same thing, even if A’ indicates the opposite…

  29. Mac,
    Yep. That’s a fairly small car and there were three of them inside. I highly doubt that handfuls of bullets entered the car and resulted in only one dead. In fact, it doesn’t seem like anyone else got hit by a bullet. Sgrena’s wound came from a splinter. As for the driver – cite:
    It said the surviving intelligence agent “was treated by Army medics on the scene but refused medical evacuation for further assistance.”

  30. “what if she picked up a dozen shell casings?”
    Mac, there is zero, repeat, zero evidence for that speculation.
    I would give good odds that if the checkpoint troops had been fired at, we would have heard something.

  31. Mac, there is zero, repeat, zero evidence for that speculation.
    LOL. Sure now you set that standard! Where were you at the beginning of the other thread…
    I agree there is little evidence, but zero isn’t accurate. See StanLS link above.

  32. While the claim that there were handfulls of bullets certainly doesn’t sound credible, matterial could have spalled off the door or dash and been mistaken for bullets.

  37. Frank,
    matterial could have spalled off the door or dash and been mistaken for bullets.
    Excellent. The bullets they claimed to have handfuls probably weren’t bullets, and the 300-400 rounds fired at the car is probably bogus, too. Meanwhile, almost every story on this claims a “hail” or “rain” of bullets, etc.
    Looks like communists are doing some major PR.
    Can’t wait for the driver to speak on this.

  39. Maybe we should have a thread for snark and a thread for references. It’s really hard to keep track…
    [awaits expected rejoinder concerning reading skills]

  41. lj,
    Already cited here – Posted by: Stan LS | March 10, 2005 06:18 PM
    And was cited on the old thread. Doing some selective reading?

  42. So Pier Scolari is “they” here? Maybe when I’m home and have access to a dictionary I’m going to check some Italian sources, assuming no one has pointed to reports from an actually fluent blogger.

  43. “…trying to prove the car was shot out enough to prove the troops used excessive force, while trying to prove it wasn’t shot out so much to prove an assasination attempt, while trying to prove it wasn’t shot out so much to prove they targeted the engine block, while thry to prove it was shot out enough to…etc. etc.”
    There are only three key words in all that, Edward: “trying to prove.”
    These threads have been all about people, who through their apparent inherent Knowledge Of The Cosmic All, trying to prove what said Cosmic Knowledge has informed them must have happened.
    Mere sitting around waiting for definitive information is boring and insufficient, and thus we have the immensely useful thousands of words that have been written about this case on this blog (and hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, elsewhere), which will be sure to change history and people’s lives, as well as the beliefs of everyone reading.
    Or maybe not. But it’s interesting to see such effort expended by so many on proving one’s prejudices.
    Or maybe not.

  45. This is why I have little faith in trial by jury. Do the facts matter at all, or is ideologically-driven speculation on translations of second-hand accounts of events that happened halfway around the world what passes for “truth” these days?

  46. rilke,
    From an italian paper
    Are we really to believe Giuliana Sgrena when she says that she personally picked “handfuls of bullets” off the seat, but that, in this premeditated rain of fire from an armored vehicle against an automobile with no armor plating, only one passenger actually died?
    By the way, the ABC Australia link has audio. Enjoy.

  47. This is a fun discussion. Two thoughts: 1) trained police officers involved in shooting incidents often have a hard time recalling exactly how many shots they themselves fired, when they are the ones shooting, from semi-auto weapons, usually fewer than five shots. It seems unlikely that a civilian being fired upon by automatic gunfire would be able to accurately estimate how many hundreds of rounds were fired at her.
    2) As far as handfuls of bullets, I’m not sure about military munitions, but here at home it’s not uncommon for investigators to find slugs that have penetrated winshield glass or car components lying on the floor of the vehicle. It’s plausible that several 5.56 mm rounds could have penetrated the car but not shattered or become embedded in anything.

  48. Tut, tut, Gary, there’s more here than that. Why do we come here at all to read these impulses and leave our electronic tracks?
    Gromit, you might like to listen to the Facts Don’t Matter, an episode of This American Life (my daughter’s favorite show).

  49. Gromit,
    Do the facts matter at all
    That’s what I am trying to find out.. When she claims that 300-400 rounds were fired without a warning, yet the photo of the car shows minimal damage, does that mean that most of those shots were shot as a warning? Or that the number of shots fired was far less? Do you think that point would be brought up at a trial? Or is it irrelevant?

  51. travis,
    It’s plausible that several 5.56 mm rounds could have penetrated the car but not shattered or become embedded in anything.
    She claimed that she was shot at from a tank. Do tanks/armoured vehicles use 5.56 rounds? Also, the claim here is that “handfuls” of rounds were inside the car, not just a few. And, it being a small car with three occupants in it, do you wonder why only one person was hit by gunfire (handfuls of rounds inside and all)?

  52. I haven’t done my homework, I wasn’t aware of the tank part. I think my previous comment shows my skepticism; I simply mean to reiterate that the 400 rounds part (at least) is unreliable due to the unreliability of memory in similar situations.

  53. Stan, would like to see what the primary sources say, not what a translated version of her boyfriend’s report of (I assume) a phone call says. See ++ungood above for the difference between appearance and reality – perhaps she meant a lot, and resorted to Macian melodrama out of emotion. Context would help me assess this. When she said she was shot at from a tank, does that mean a tank was firing, or people in/on an armored vehicle were firing rifles? Did this in fact not happen at a checkpoint?

  54. Stan
    Why isn’t the Eason Jordan standard being invoked. Hey, we don’t know what happened, please release all the information? sort of thing.
    As usual, Gary states it better (and faster) than I do. I’ve read everything that was written on this and, truth to tell, it’s a dog’s breakfast. Trying to come up with mutually agreed upon definitions of murder, ambush, pictures of cars that are not related to the incident, arguments of number of rounds and what happens to bullets after they hit engine blocks, all done in the complete absence of any actual knowledge. Show of hands here, how many of you have been in a car that was struck a bullet? OK, how about by more than 1 bullet? How many of you had someone die on their lap. OK, after the person was shot on the head? How many of you have been kidnapped? Try to gently hint that it’s getting too snarky is an invitation for more snark, right?
    There has been some good stuff in the thread. A discussion of ROE for checkpoints. An attempt at providing actual statistics for deaths at checkpoints. Some interesting points about ransom (cleverly concealed in insults like ‘What if I kidnapped your mother?’). I appreciated the little interlude about 240+pound Canadians (don’t they use kilos though?). But those pearls are trampled in the mud.
    If I were to do some selective reading, I would wholeheartedly agree with this poster who quite sensibly suggested “Let’s wait for the investigation to conclude.” Wonder where that guy went?

  55. rilke,
    The ABC Australia link has audio of that whole article. Her bf can heard speaking in italian, with the translator’s voice over in English. Also, I posted a link from an italian paper which uses the term “handfuls of bullets” as well.

  56. Stan, I’m at work, I can’t really play audio. And as I say, I don’t much care what her bf says. Anyway, now paying attention to lj‘s last post.

  57. lj,
    Jes got me fired up with her insinuations :>
    Besides, if everyone waited for the investigation to conclude (this or any other), then the comment section would be dead 🙂

  58. “Let’s wait for the investigation to conclude.” Let’s not; the title of this post invokes “speculation,” what’s wrong with speculating? We’re just speculating our way to a rough consensus about what is and is not reasonably plausible, given the available reported information and with the usual caveats about its reliability. Nobody here believes we’re going to pull an Encyclopedia Brown on this little mystery and wrap it up all nice and tidy, we’re just discussing it because it’s of interest.
    If we can’t post unless things have actually happened to us, then we’re in for a long, boring spell of blogging.

  59. “Let’s wait for the investigation to conclude.” Let’s not; the title of this post invokes “speculation,” what’s wrong with speculating? We’re just speculating our way to a rough consensus about what is and is not reasonably plausible, given the available reported information and with the usual caveats about its reliability. Nobody here believes we’re going to pull an Encyclopedia Brown on this little mystery and wrap it up all nice and tidy, we’re just discussing it because it’s of interest.
    If we can’t post unless things have actually happened to us, then we’re in for a long, boring spell of blogging.

  61. rilke,
    And as I say, I don’t much care what her bf says.
    Man… That’s weak… And just a few posts ago you were talking about going home and opening up a dictionary.

  62. A list of relevant points:
    1. Isn’t Sgrena the only source for the alleged 400+ shots? Since she seems more than willing to invent facts to suit her prejudices, and thinks it was an assasination attempt, it seems pointless to debate this. Here is a good selection of photos of the vehicle that were in turn taken from an Italian source. Does not look like it took much damage.
    2. Forget that Sgrena was the passenger as it could have been anybody — this was a high-level mission being directed by Italian intelligence. I think it unlikely that it was being conducted unprofessionally by the Italians such that it contributed to the incident. It is doubtful that the driver was some fool who reacted poorly causing the incident, but more time will tell.
    3. Shooting the engine block? I am sure that it is the recommended tactic, but is it just possible that shots at night toward the front of a moving (speeding?) car that are fired in haste are just as likely to strike passengers as the block? It does seem that they were not deliberately targeting the driver, but it is foolish to pretend that the shots can be so antiseptically aimed.
    4. The Negraponte revelation makes it clear this was an informal checkpoint that had just been set up. It was in a location likely to cause trouble — on the airport road where people normally speed in order to avoid insurgent attack. Its the equivalent of a sobriety checkpoint on the freeway without any advance warning signs.
    5. Speed of the vehicle? The reports still vary wildly, but this seems irrelevant since speeding would be normal, and the checkpoint is not off the hook if the vehicle was traveling at a high rate of speed.
    This was a normal episode that happens constantly — jumpy troops killing innocent civilians who have not really done anything wrong, except unwittingly provoke anxiety that the troops feel justifies deadly force. Its a symptom of inadequate forces trying to fight an insurgency, but which cannot provide basic security.

  65. dmbeaster’s photo link makes it seem extremely unlikely that the car was hit by anything remotely resembling a sustained volley of rifle or machine gun fire. What the heck happened?

  66. If it is the case that the patrol didn’t simply open up on the car, then the Army’s “engine block” explanation begins to seem more believable: maybe a single/a few shots “missed” and hit the passenger compartment (NYT March 5 said that 2 other security personnel were wounded, no indication if from direct fire or shrapnel/fragments; for that matter, it’s not clear if that report was accurate as to the number of people in the car)
    It’s either speculate about this or Jacko, I prefer this 🙂

  67. then the comment section would be dead
    And in this case, this would be bad because…?
    But seriously, the last thread was wrapped up (kinda sorta) by JerryN‘s admonition to take it a bit easy. Can’t you agree we _all_ need to take it to heart? Here are some questions that I have about the incident.
    What exactly are the ROE (as best as we can discern) for checkpoints? Why don’t they utilize policing devices like tire shredders and the like?
    What does this tell us about the on the ground communication and command structure?
    How significant is the difference on whether ransom should be paid and how are these ransom demands being passed?
    What are the political leanings of the Italian news sources that are reporting this?
    I understand (per travis) that you want to speculate, believe it or not, I do to, but I’d prefer it to be speculation that looks at the sources and discusses them rather than jumping on each other’s statements. I mean, didn’t you guys ever watch Dragnet? ;^)

  68. dmbeaster’s overall assessment is correct, I think: there is too much traffic, too much guerilla activity, and too much suicide bomber materiel on the roads of Iraq for this type of thing not to be, tragically, “normal” at this point in this war.

  70. Point taken LJ.
    On ROE, this is from an April 1, 2003 NYT report:
    “Guards at checkpoints here have been told to follow specific procedures as civilian cars approach. They are to ask the driver to halt first, then fire a warning shot if the driver continues, then aim at the car to stop it. The final step, if necessary, is to shoot and kill the driver if he or she fails to stop.”

  72. Dmbeaster- Good post. Though on point 1 while I have doubts as to her veracity I’ve not seen convincing proof she’s makes up facts
    (unlike, say Mac)

  73. Frank,
    Well, it’s interesting. Sgrena did come out and claim that she was deliberately targeted. That means that:
    a) She has some proof to back up her allegation, but is withholding it.
    b) ?

  74. “What are the political leanings of the Italian news sources that are reporting this?”
    I believe the paper Stan pointed to is very well respected but quite far to the right (Italian-style, whatever that means). I used to read La Repubblica (in part to see how much of Eco’s column I could understand, if any). (Btw they say the govt denies the ransom reports.) I’d hazard a guess that Italian coverage will be reasonably reliable on this issue

  75. Thanks for that Travis. A couple of dots that I’d like to connect. The first is that it seems that there are not very many US casualties at checkpoints, if the stats discussed in the last thread are accurate. Also, the efforts at hardening targets would suggest that checkpoints are set up as a preventative measure. This being the case, it seems to me that the ROE are very problematic. Multiple checkpoints should be set up, and if someone moves through one, then they should be picked up by the next. The link to the concept of ‘flying roadblocks’ is quite interesting and it is easy to see how roadblocks that are designed to disrupt guerilla activity are completely inappropriate for the situation in Iraq, if we assume that civilians are travelling in relatively large numbers.
    Snippet from the link with some points emphasised

    During Operation PROVIDE COMFORT a technique used was called a flying checkpoint. Mobile units, usually consisting of mounted infantry, combat engineers, and TOW vehicles overwatched by attack helicopters, moved forward to key intersections in areas where armed Iraqi or guerrilla fighters were known to operate and set up hasty roadblocks in order to disrupt unauthorized or unwanted military activity. This mission always required designating soldiers to detain and search intruders, a sizeable element to overwatch the checkpoint, air cover[!] on station, mobile mortar support, and a quick reinforcement force of TOW and infantry carriers that could extract or reinforce the flying checkpoint. Leaders should also ensure that checkpoints are designed so that only the minimum number of soldiers are exposed at any given time and that they are covered by automatic weapons when they are exposed.

    It seems to me that checkpointing in Iraq should be set up as multiple barriers so that forces can track people and assess risks over a longer period of time. If the checkpoint was set up for Negroponte (who was supposed to be travelling _through_ according to the linked article), it seems like it wasn’t a very intelligent way of providing extra security, unless I’m missing something here.

  76. The Independent
    Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini admitted to Parliament on Tuesday that the Italians had not informed the Americans at Camp Victory in Baghdad Airport that they were bringing the freed hostage Giuliana Sgrena out of captivity.
    Italy avoided sharing sensitive information about its hostage negotiations with the Americans lest the latter decided to intervene. Likewise the need for discretion meant that Calipari and his secret service colleague were obliged to move around Baghdad in an unprotected car with Iraqi number plates, and without an armed escort.

  77. Wow, the plot thickens. Do/did the italians think that the US troops, if they found out, would have tried to effect a rescue with guns blazing? Obviously, there is no coordinated command structure, but that level of distrust is really amazing. No wonder there is no intelligence on the ground there.

  78. Can we at least agree that the number of bullets fired is both unknown and irrelevant?
    Let’s see.
    They fired 400 times, so they must have been trying to kill her.
    They fired 400 times and didn’t kill her, so they obviously weren’t trying to.
    They fired only a few times, so they weren’t trying to kill her.
    They fired only a few times, and killed the bodyguard, so they must have been aiming at the car’s interior.
    What next?

  80. Gary: These threads have been all about people, who through their apparent inherent Knowledge Of The Cosmic All, trying to prove what said Cosmic Knowledge has informed them must have happened.
    Which is why I’ve avoided posting on them. I’m more interested in trying to figure wtf happened and, frankly, I’m having no success. So my plan is to wait until there’s a vaguely consistent, coherent story before I even consider “proof” or “speculation”.
    Stan: You think that’s something! I got an unopened bottle of Remy 1738 here, which I can’t have cause I am on antibiotics 🙁
    That may be the saddest thing I’ve ever heard you say.
    OK, translating the whole killing of children thing was probably worse. But this is a close second.

  81. “If we can’t post unless things have actually happened to us, then we’re in for a long, boring spell of blogging.”
    Things that actually happened to us? 30 minutes ago I had to put a 10-15 pound cat in a trash bag that my male shepherd caught in the backyard. Lady called me when she heard the start of the party, but I was unable to get to garden hose in time. Nasty soundtrack, folks.
    “Bad dog?” “Good dog?” Poor dumb kitty.

  82. You know Eddie, I looked for the post with Jes’s original comments on this subject. I couldn’t find it (probably should have looked harder), was it edited?

  83. Jesus, Bob, that’s terrible. That’s why I don’t let my cats outdoors. Supposedly the average life expectancy for an outdoor cat is 4-5 years, compared to 12-18 for an indoor cat.

  84. Supposedly the average life expectancy for an outdoor cat is 4-5 years, compared to 12-18 for an indoor cat.
    “It is better to die from drink than to die from thirst.”
    -John Fante
    Let cats be cats.

  86. Does Fante have any pithy quotes about dying in the jaws of a German Shepherd, or beneath the tire of a pickup? Some of the realities of urban living simply can’t be overcome with poetry. I’ve lost too many cats and dogs to the streets to not take this sort of thing quite seriously.

  87. Does Fante have any pithy quotes about dying in the jaws of a German Shepherd, or beneath the tire of a pickup?
    Nah, he had some about watching his dad drink himself to death though. That was what the book that quote came from was about. The son of course tried to stop it. If you think you are doing an animal a favor by keeping it in a cage all its life, well whatever. For your sake, may there be no such thing as karma in the universe.

  89. Yeah, felix, my home is a torturous little prison-hell for my pets. Now that we’ve cleared that up, please bite me.

  90. Yeah, felix, my home is a torturous little prison-hell for my pets.
    You know what’s best for them, right? And if someone wants to put you in a cage, your rationale for complaining is…what exactly? Tell me, if someone put you in a cage, and claimed it was for your own good and that you would be happier there, what would your response be?

  91. The mustard did it.
    No, not Colonel Mustard. French’s Golden Mustard with its shifty-lookin label. I’m tired a people impugnin the good name a the colonel with talk a what he was doin in the conservatory with the wrench. He tole me there were leaky pipes in there an I believe im.

  92. You suppose Negroponte will adopt some Italian kids now?
    Sorry for being so late w/ this but I nearly messed my pants laughing after reading the above.

  93. Timmy,
    we started a new thread…maybe the comment you’re looking for in on the older one.
    We don’t edit comments without a notice (and then only do so if they violate the posting rules).

  97. Unquestionably always a good idea.
    Yeah, cause Giblets might then show up all dissatisfied and stuff; ending ObWi as we know it.

  98. In case anyone wants to know what I was wondering about last night, in bed 🙂 — I was wondering what the vernacular in Iraq is — I thought it was Persian but then I thought maybe it’s Arabic. Anyway, if it is Persian or Arabic, then do our troops know how to say “Halt!” in Persian or Arbic? Is that something that’s taught to them in briefings?
    (I accept that I am shamefully ignorant)

  100. Frank:
    Dmbeaster- Good post. Though on point 1 while I have doubts as to her veracity I’ve not seen convincing proof she’s makes up facts.
    I made this remark based on stuff I’ve read at other sites — her past journalism history. She is pretty extreme. And her assasination meme is so over the top — someone who posits the most extreme interpretation from scant facts is simply making stuff up.
    Stan LS:
    Adequate troop force does not mean that you eliminate checkpoints. It means that by now, the airport road would be secure, and more areas would be secure, so that civilians could travel without a high state of fear, and would lessen tension at all checkpoints, and thereby reduce shooting incidents by jumpy troops wasting equally jumpy civilians.
    The other underlying problem is that the troops, unlike police or other specially trained peace-keeping forces, are not particularly proficient at the decision-making for when to employ deadly force against civilians. They will err on the side of excess force because they are troops, not police.
    What is really needed is more specially trained peace-keepers — no just ordinary troops. Read reports from the troops describing the adequacy of their training to deal with the policing situation — they universally describe its complete inadequacy.
    Reagarding your Independent link, it is referencing Calipari’s activities prior to freeing Sgrena and then commencing travel to the airport. US military at the airport were awaiting their arrival along with Italian authorities — freeing her ended whatever secretiveness they had been employing previously.

  101. Dmbeaster: And her assasination meme is so over the top — someone who posits the most extreme interpretation from scant facts is simply making stuff up.
    Under the circumstances? You’re a bit harsh (and a bit quick off the mark) to judge her.
    One week ago she had just been rescued from Iraqi kidnappers when she was fired on by American soldiers. And the man responsible for getting her out was killed by those soldiers. From what she’s said (I cited in an earlier thread her comment about two of the soldiers trying to apologize to Calipari) I doubt if she thinks the soldiers knew they were there to kill either her or Calipari.
    But given what she’s been through, I don’t think her feeling that the US military attempted to assassinate her is at all over the top: I think it’s entirely understandable (easier to believe that someone close to you was killed for a purpose, than just because of a combination of monumental stupidity* on the part of the US military, and frightened/untrained US soldiers at an “impromptu checkpoint”.
    This is not a demand that you should agree with her: that’s an entirely separate thing. It is a simple request: think about what she’s been through, and refrain from judging her based on this.
    (I have not read her other journalism. If you intend to judge her based on her previous output, that’s fair enough. I may disagree with your judgement when I’ve read it, but it’s fair.)
    *From the individual (not making sure the patrol in the area knew Sgrena’s car was coming through), to the widespread (not doing something about the habit US soldiers have of killing Iraqi civilians at checkpoints). If this is the explanation – and I confess it looks very plausible to me – yeah, monumental stupidity is about the kindest phrase for it.

  102. Stan, I know they’re instructed in local customs, take shoes off before entering a mosque and all that so one would think that that would be also very obvious. So any guardsman back from Iraq should know it, right?

  103. This American Prospect article has some good discussion of checkpoint problems and other points related to the incident.
    It references an article in the Dayton Daily News. (funky copyright busting page, search for “Civil claims provide glimpse” to get to the top of the full article)

  104. the habit US soldiers have of killing Iraqi civilians at checkpoints
    Can’t help yourself, can you? That is an offensively inane slur that is just unnecessary and counterfactual. It isn’t a “habit” for any US soldier to kill Iraqi civilians. Stop being so sloppy and inaccurate with the language.

  105. But given what she’s been through, I don’t think her feeling that the US military attempted to assassinate her is at all over the top: I think it’s entirely understandable (easier to believe that someone close to you was killed for a purpose, than just because of a combination of monumental stupidity* on the part of the US military, and frightened/untrained US soldiers at an “impromptu checkpoint”.

    There is ‘feeling’ and there is ‘reporting’.

  106. Macallan: It isn’t a “habit” for any US soldier to kill Iraqi civilians. Stop being so sloppy and inaccurate with the language.
    I speak with precision, Mac. You just don’t like what it says about American soldiers.
    Sebastian: There is ‘feeling’ and there is ‘reporting’.
    Agreed. I would not take Sgrena’s opinion that this was an attempted assassination as “reporting”, but I do take it as a valid expression of her feelings.

  107. Dmbeaster-

    I thought the assasination idea was crazy myself, though finding out that the troops who shot at her were connected to Negroponte gave me some pause. But to go from there to assuming her dishonesty seems excessive to me. For example even though Mac and Timmy are extremists I don’t assume they are lying every time they open their mouths without seeing evidence that they have lied in the past.
    Sebastian- No one separates their feelings from their reporting. Its just too tall an order for humans to achieve.

  110. That “civil claims” article LJ linked to is — horrible. Part of me hopes very much that it’s not all true. Maybe the one about Lt. Leif E. Nott is the most disturbing.
    🙁

  111. I speak with precision, Mac. You just don’t like what it says about American soldiers.
    You believe you speak with precision. You just don’t like what it says about you.

  112. LJ, thanks for the pointers. That article is very disturbing.

    The case [of Tahsin Ali Hussein al-Ruba’i, an Iraqi civilian killed at a checkpoint] is among 4,611 never-before-released civil claims from Iraq — hundreds alleging abuse and misconduct by American military personnel — on a computer database obtained by the Dayton Daily News through the federal Freedom of Information Act. The U.S. Army tort claims database is the most comprehensive public record released to date of alleged acts against Iraqi civilians by American forces, which do not otherwise systematically track civilian casualties.

    This is only indicative, not authoritative. According to the article, many incidents where compensation is paid are not even entered into the database. On the other hand, some claims are fraudulent.
    Judging by the article, there is a cover-up going on. This is very bad.

  113. I´m a bit surprised by some of the comments here.
    Some people only cite Sgrena or her partner, both of which were not very objective in the first few days.
    And probably understandable too.
    But wondering what the driver will say eventually.
    Actually the driver, the slightly injured SISMI agent was already mentioned in Italian newspapers on Sunday.
    They reported that during the initial questionings last weekend, he agreed in two important points with Mrs. Sgrena.
    – The car wasn´t speeding
    – and there was no warning before the shooting started.
    (Note that nobody claimed that he supported the 300-400 shoots though.)
    I really doubt that the Italian government would make statements questioning the US version of events solely based on Mrs. Sgrena´s statements.
    Detlef
    ———-
    Sources:
    AGI Italy On Line
    (Special service by AGI on behalf of the Italian Prime Minister’s office)
    CALIPARI: FINI, HE HAD PASS FOR FREE MOVEMENT
    (AGI) – Rome, March 8 – Nicola Calipari had “the pass for free movement” and he had activated “all necessary contacts with US airport security authorities”. This happened on March 4th between 16:30 and 17:10 p.m., stated Gianfranco Fini.
    (The shooting happened at 8:55pm.)
    Italian Leader Says U.S. Knew of Rescue Plan
    (WaPo, March 10, 2005)
    Nicola Calipari, a senior intelligence officer familiar with working in Iraq, arrived with a colleague at Baghdad International Airport on Friday. Calipari spent 40 minutes contacting U.S. military authorities in charge of the airport to notify them of his mission and receive a safe-conduct document to move around the airport, according to the Italian leaders.
    With the inside light on, Calipari sat alongside Sgrena and made phone calls to superiors to report his success. One was to an Italian official who was standing next to an American colonel at the airport, the prime minister said Wednesday, addressing the Italian Senate.
    Italy Calls Shooting an Accident
    (Washington Post, March 9, 2005)
    He [Fini] also said the slain intelligence agent, Nicola Calipari, had made a series of phone calls in an effort to alert Italian and U.S. authorities.
    Fini’s detailed description of the incident — based on testimony by the driver, an unidentified Italian intelligence agent — contained no mention of warning shots or hand signals. Fini said the car was traveling at no more than 25 mph on a wet road as the driver steered around cement blocks. Fini said the driver was already braking when the car was hit by a burst of automatic gunfire lasting 10 to 15 seconds.
    Italian Disputes U.S. Version of Fatal Shots Fired at Journalist’s Car
    (NYT March 9, 2005)
    Mr. Fini, while emphasizing that the shooting was an “accident,” said in Parliament in Rome that the United States military had authorized the Italian agent, Nicola Calipari, to travel to the airport. The car carrying the Italians was not speeding, he said, adding that there was no obvious checkpoint and that the driver received no warnings from American soldiers before the shooting started.
    But Mr. Fini, the Italian foreign minister, citing testimony from the agent who was driving the car, said the Italians had not encountered an official checkpoint. He said they were going about 25 miles an hour and had the interior lights on to allow people to make phone calls. As they rounded a curve, the car was illuminated by a bright light, and more than one automatic weapon fired at them for about 15 seconds, Mr. Fini said.

  114. My outdoor cats are now well over a decade old in this truck-, dog-, and coyote-infested neighborhood. But they’re pretty tough kitties.
    I did lose a cat in the Yukon to something big and nasty once, possibly a fox or cougar, of which there were a few in the neighbourhood. But I think that was a fair trade-off. Having something big and toothy sneak up on you and finish you off must be a nasty moment, but it’s a moment soon over, and I know the cat would have happily with the risk in order to be just a little bit wild, and do the her own sneaking and ambushing of smaller prey.
    She was a good cat, and I was sorry to lose her, but that’s life.

  115. You know what’s best for them, right?
    Right. Somehow I suspect cats don’t really understand about waiting for the light to change before crossing the street and things like that.
    My dog doesn’t really like going to the vet and getting poked with a needle and so on, but as a matter of fact that is what’s best for him.

  117. I’m in the middle on the cat thing. I’ve had mostly outdoor cats, and they’ve lived fairly long lives, but I’ve also seen a cat chased under the rear tires of a car by a dog (it was hit in the head and jumped six feet in the air from pure reflex before falling dead to the ground)–it was a horrible sight, and I can’t criticize anyone who chooses not to risk letting a beloved pet die in that manner.

  118. No offense intended to the pet owners, but can the cat discussion be continued on the open thread? It’s kind of jarring to read about it in between Sgrena checkpoints and Iraq. Just a humble suggestion.

  119. dmbeaster,
    It means that by now, the airport road would be secure,
    I am not a military guy, so maybe you or someone else can clarify this further. I thought that checkpoints were for providing security/securing a road? How does one secure a road?

  120. How does one secure a road?
    By making sure that vehicles travelling on it are not driven by bad guys. You do that by filtering at access points, which is what the checkpoints would be. I’d imagine that it’s also patrolled.

  122. I speak with precision
    Jes, you rarely speak with precision and in this particular case you were immprecise from your very first comment which you have ducked and weaved from ever since (example, your use of “drive by” just for starters).

  123. Jes, my last comment on the subject

    The Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena, who was wounded by American fire last Friday soon after being released by kidnappers in Baghdad, has said that she does not think that the Americans were trying to kill her. “I never said that they wanted to kill me,” she said on a television talk show, “but the mechanics of what happened were those of an attack.”

    Jes, still waiting for that apology.

  124. Timmy: Excellent. Please wait, quietly, over there. *points*
    I’ll get back to you. Sometime.
    Hope you’ve got something to read while you wait…

  125. Found via Body and Soul, I think this deserves a whole new thread:

    The deputy commander of the Iraqi army in western Al-Anbar province was shot dead by US troops at a checkpoint Tuesday night, a police officer said.
    “The US forces opened fire at 8:00 pm on Brigadier General Ismail Swayed al-Obeid, who had left his base in Baghdadi to head home,” police Captain Amin al-Hitti said. cite

    This is really, really bad news. I trust I don’t have to explain why…

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