by Eric Martin
I haven’t seen the latest Indy yet, but rumor has it, some folks have. That being said, this is an open thread and thus you should not feel obligated to discuss any subject in particular. There is no off topic! Think of the implications…
Best ethical system: deontological or utilitarian? No halvsies — pick one!!
Rule utilitarianism or any utilitarian system concentrating on following rules or adopting the right attitudes that will lead to the most utility. Deontological ethical systems strike me as a bit odd and hard to justify.
Crib notes are here.
I saw it. I’ll admit that it was better than I thought it was going to be. I’d rank it third best of the four Indy movies. Temple of Doom still trails dead last, IMHO.
There are a lot of holes in the script. For example, they play up (I’d say overplay) the 50’s-era red scare stuff, yet nobody blinks an eye at KGB agents wandering around a college campus, pursuing Dr. Jones. I’d also say that the ending doesn’t make a lot of sense.
Most sadly, Cate Blanchett’s villain character is very weak. Her Russian accent, such as it is, is in the Rocky and Bullwinkle range and we never get much in te way of motivation for her except “we commies will take over the word, bwa ha ha!”
I would have preferred dead-ender/sleeper agent Nazis instead of commies for the baddies, but that’s just me.
Still, all in all, it’s a fun film, fits in well with the franchise and is worth the price of admission.
“Best ethical system: deontological or utilitarian? No halvsies — pick one!!”
Deontological, clearly. But unfortunately we need an excellent understanding of the basic priciples and I’m not sure we have that.
So we have to be modest about our assertion of deontological principles, which ends up functioning in a rather utilitarian way.
How is that for a hedge?
I enjoyed Blanchett – Indy villains have never exactly been what you’d call three dimensional. And with Uma Thurman’s wig from Pulp Fiction and Natasha Fatalle on vocals, I enjoyed 2 hours of her saying “mmm, scenary. nom nom nom nom….”
Is this a spoiler-free thread, or can we do spoilers? I’ll assume the latter, but put some space warnings the first time.
“Temple of Doom still trails dead last, IMHO.”
Does anyone anywhere disagree? Certainly Spielberg doesn’t.
SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!
SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!
SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!
SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!
SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!
SPOILERS BELOW:
“For example, they play up (I’d say overplay) the 50’s-era red scare stuff, yet nobody blinks an eye at KGB agents wandering around a college campus, pursuing Dr. Jones.”
Who would have known, other than the audience and Dr. Jones, and perhaps the FBI, that those two guys were KGB?
It did occur to me that smart KGB agents would have staked out Indy’s home, but a) he arguably wiped out most of their operational force back in the opening in the warehouse; and b) who said they were smart?
Also noted by me was that the FBI kinda fell out of the story, but that’s more or less to be expected.
I very much liked the way the whole thing was made so organic to the Fifties, from beginning to end, from the use of hot rods as a Lucas return to his roots, his youth, to American Graffitti, and to Harrison Ford’s small first significant role in that film, to the bobby soxers, the greasers, the Wild One homage, the switchblade as Mutt’s weapon-of-choice, the motorcyles, the Atomic Cafe homage, Roswell, the flying saucer craze, the Fifties B Monster/Alien movies, the Communist Threat, McCarthyism, and so on and so forth.
“Most sadly, Cate Blanchett’s villain character is very weak.”
Most reviewers disagree, fwiw. I have to ask how she might be seen as less deep than any of the previous villains, none of whom I’d call particularly complex or interesting, really. I’d actually argue that she’s at least as well-developed and interesting as any of the past villains, if not a touch more so. But this is pure subjectivity, so neither of us is right or wrong here.
“I would have preferred dead-ender/sleeper agent Nazis instead of commies for the baddies, but that’s just me.”
Yeah, me, I think Nazis in the Fifties would have been deeply lame. As Ford has said “we just plumb wore Nazis out.” Soviet agents makes endlessly more sense for a Fifties setting, and it’s not as if Stalin’s KGB was kindly and sympathetic, or not real.
Oh, and thanks muchly for the excellent service, Eric. I’m going to leave you a very good tip.
Oh, and I liked it a lot; I think anyone who liked Raiders and/or Crusade, and gives it a fair shot, should, for the most part. But some won’t, of course, and maybe you’re one of them. It is what it is, and I like what it is, myself.
I was afraid crystal skulls were going to be the over-used cliche that they are, but the twist, though I saw it coming from the start, was sufficient to make me not feel that way.
It was all entirely predictable, but well done, and I’m happy. I look forward to getting the DVD and seeing it again, when it comes out.
Meanwhile, my next theatre outing: Dark Knight. And maybe Incredible Hulk. And I should look at the other upcoming summer flicks scheduled. Maybe Hancock. What other summer films do y’all look forward to?
I also saw Blanchett’s character as very much influenced by Boris and Natasha, and I liked that. I mean, what, she and Lucas and Spielberg never saw Rocky and Bullwinkle? Of course it’s deliberate.
Stephen – I think moral judgements are essentially the same as aesthetic judgements, so it’s hard not to go halfsies. Although aesthetic judgements are seen mostly as deontological, the utilitarian aspects of a moral action are often the source of their beauty or ugliness.
What do you think of Marc Hauser’s take?
Temple of Doom ROCKS! It’s the only Indy film I liked that much. The first was good because it was first and I was a lot younger. Doom was awesome with the blood and the hearts and the bugs and Kate Capshaw and whatnot. Personally I though Crusade munched (in the bad way).
Anyway, typical libs and activist judges trying to shove Crystal Skull down our throats! Ahem.
I should qualify that by saying that the only source of moral reality, as far as I can see, is utilitarian.
Speaking of Cate Blanchett, has anyone seen “Notes on a Scandal.”
Both she and Judy Dench were nominated for Oscars for their performances — the French actress won; don’t remember her name even remotely.
Saw “Scandal” last weekend on cable with my wife and it was riveting, especially for an essentially all-dialogue movie (except, of course, when Blanchett was getting it on with her 15-year-old student. Or was he 16?)
I believe it’s Judi Dench.
Hard to believe she didn’t take home the Oscar.
Hard to believe Blanchett didn’t take home the Oscar.
Hard to believe, Harry.
A friend with a home theater is throwing an Indiana Jones marathon tomorrow in honor of the release so I’m going to go watch the first 3.
Gary, since you mention Boris and Natasha, here is a link to Amy Winfrey getting an award presented by June Foray.
You might enjoy a visit to the dreary coastal town of Clamburg.
Would you believe I’m looking forward to Get Smart?
Haven’t seen Indy yet, but I have to say that it complicates my trilogy theory of great Hollywood franchises that it even exists:
The first is automatically the best because it’s what you’re comparing the others to to see if they live up to it.
The second one tends to be artistically better than the first, though, because of its darkness and complexity, will find less favor and in spirit can be untrue to the epic scope of the first.
The third is nowhere near as good as the first two but is often defined by crass commercialism and gimmickry, but is usually a good romp.
Star Wars, The Godfather, Indiana Jones, etc.
Discuss.
Gary, are you planning on seeing Pixar’s Wall*E? Pixar on the big screen is always a must for me.
Phil, historically the number of movies I’ve seen in theatres, rather than on tv or via videocassette or DVD, has been approximately 1-2 movies every 2-4 years for the last 18 years or so, due to poverty since 1991 in particular, but also going back earlier, with some pockets of a few months exception here and there.
I’m currently being treated to more movies now, but still tend to be non-prolific in my theater-visiting; Iron Man and IJATKoC were the first movies I’ve seen in a theatre since Batman Begins, which was the first I’ve seen since Spider-man 2, and the LOTR films. Before that, X-Men 2 and I and Spider-Man, before that (I may be out of order here; shoot me), the Star Wars prequels. Before that it was the 20th century, and somewhere around, I’m not sure, the early nineties, I guess.
I will most likely see Wall*E on DVD (netflix), but I certainly see good reason for anyone who can easily afford a bunch of movies to go see it in a theatre.
“Would you believe I’m looking forward to Get Smart?”
Missed it by that much, Chief.
Better use the Cone of Silence to discuss this.
“Discuss.”
I’d argue that the Star Wars prequels were good to less good in reverse chronological order, with Revenge of the Sith the best, Attack of the Clones second best, and Phantom Menace undermined by Jar Jar, and “whoopie!,” although I love the art direction, and think that Phantom Menace is best when there’s no dialogue, and that the more dialogue there is in a scene, the worse the scene is apt to be. Actually, that applies to all three films. They’d arguably be best as silent movies.
I’d certainly agree that The Empire Strikes Back is far far better than Return of the Jedi, and arguably the best of that trilogy, although of course, the first was the first, as you say.
I hated it – boring, contrived and unfunny.
Also, didn’t anybody else notice that the film looked awful? Many of the scenes were either too washed out / desaturated or they had these extremely overblown highlights, which are en vogue nowadays (Robert Richardson) and fine by me but you have to do them right, which they didn’t. The CG was patchy and don’t get me started on the aliens (The Abyss anyone?). Also, while I don’t mind the odd lens-flare, having somewhere around 35 of them in a movie is really, really bad. Janusz Kaminski is an amazing cinematographer (Schindler’s List, Saving Private Ryan, Munich) but he blew it on this one – sad.
Bah. I’ll see this on DVD. Sex and the City is likely the only thing we will go to the theatre for this summer. Sop to my better half. She deserves it and actually likes that show – so, oh well. I’ll survive. I mean, there is supposedly sex, right?
Novakant, might I note the intent?
Not that you have to like it, but they weren’t doing what’s in vogue now, and were doing what was done in the past films. Deliberately.
If you found it boring, contrived, and unfunny, though, no one can argue with your right to your reaction. Taste is taste, and inarguable. It’s till at 79% favorable at RT, fwiw.
“Bah. I’ll see this on DVD.”
Fair enough, but care to comment on why you’re so dismissive?
My sweetie loved the film, fwiw.
I have to admit that I was disappointed that they didn’t do more location shooting for the movie, except for second-unit stuff. That, to me, was part of the excitement of the original Raiders, the location stuff. But I still had a pretty damned good time at this one.
Anyone other than wingnut radio talk-show hosts aghast and up in arms about HRC’s loaded reference to staying in it ’til June?
Gary, maybe they were trying to do that, but then they were just not successful in this endeavour at all. The lighting in Raiders is beautiful throughout, the lighting in Crystal Skull is a patchy mess. It doesn’t have anything to do with shooting digitally or not, nor with being en vogue or not. And ubiquitous lens-flares are certainly not a retro feature.
Gary: Fair enough, but care to comment on why you’re so dismissive?
It just takes a lot to get me to go out to the movies these days. Local theaters are a bit nasty – not clean, sticky floors, dirty seats, teenagers (and adults) talking on cell phones, toddlers crying, people talking, etc.
So it’s not about the movie so much as the local movie theatre experience. For 90% of new films, we have a much better time renting the DVD. We’ll do movie night where we rent 3 movies, and then make snacks we like, or get Chinese food, or pizza, or whatever… We can “pause and pee” whenever. It’s kind of a “date night” for us, at home. Whenever we go out to the theatre it tends to be disappointing. It has to be something on the scale of the new Star Wars flick to drag me out.
But, as I mentioned, my wife loved Sex and the City. She can’t wait to see the movie. I owe it to her to take her on the opening weekend. She’ll love it and I’ll survive.
“Anyone other than wingnut radio talk-show hosts aghast and up in arms about HRC’s loaded reference to staying in it ’til June?”
It seems reasonable to continue that discussion where it’s been going on all day, rather than in the light open thread.
“The lighting in Raiders is beautiful throughout, the lighting in Crystal Skull is a patchy mess.”
I didn’t notice that in the slightest, but if that’s how it was for you, that’s how it was for you.
I’m a touch skeptical that, as a technical matter, you’re more expert than Janusz Kamiński, Steven Spielberg, and the rest of their team, but I certainly make no claim to expertise on cinematography, so I have no intention of trying to argue that you’re wrong. You’re perfectly entitled to your opinion.
Similarly, I hope you won’t try to argue that the people who had a fine time shouldn’t have enjoyed themself.
“It has to be something on the scale of the new Star Wars flick to drag me out.”
Me, I just explained how I see every film that interests me in a theatre.
🙂
Anyway, obviously I recommend the film to those who might enjoy it, and if you’re not one, I don’t recommend it to you.
Sorry, Gary. Just got home from work and didn’t see it.
Carry on. (How’re you liking your new digs?)
My open thread topic is potatoes.
Peak Oil is a bigger deal than anybody wants to think about. You don’t hear about it because there is no money in talking about it. Rush Limbaugh said today:
“We have 20 billion barrels of oil on government land.”
Rush Limbaugh does not understand that that is less than four years worth of domestic consumption.
Peak Oil will violently reverse urbanization.
World population gains of the 20th Century tracked almost linearly with the increased use of oil. One additional person equals 4.5 barrels of oil per year. The loss of liquid fuel (liquid fuel = fertilizer = food) will reduce the carrying capacity of the earth, probably in a similar linear pattern. Very bad things could happen.
Learn to grow potatoes. 3,000 square feet of good soil equals 2,000 calories per day. Now is the time to get planting.
“(How’re you liking your new digs?)”
I couldn’t afford new digs of my own, as I’d hoped, due to the expense of the move, and won’t be able to at the current rate for about another 6 months or so, so I’m staying with someone, which has its complications and rewards.
I’m overall pretty happy, although also very overwhelmed by a vast number of things I have to adjust to. Pardon my being a bit vague.
BOBill: “Peak Oil is a bigger deal than anybody wants to think about. ”
It’s marvelous the way you believe you know what other people think, and that your thinking is ever so much acute than their’s.
I recommend the film to those who might enjoy it, and if you’re not one, I don’t recommend it to you.
“Those who like this sort of thing will find this to be the sort of thing they like.”
Attributed to a book review by Abraham Lincoln.
Ethical stomach-turner of the week for me: FDA has just announced that it is going to scrap American participation in the Declaration of Helsinki — the major international accord on ethical principles guiding physicians and other participants in medical research on human subjects. (David Niewert at FDL) Also seen at Global Bioethics Blog. I suspect that the FDL commenters are right who suggest that pushing this rule through at this stage in the Bush administration is a CYA move, not just prospective.
Meanwhile, over at slacktivist we’re discussing the need for a new masculine heroic ideal, branching off from Kit Whitfields IMO ground-breaking delineation of the Macho Sue.
Question: does the massive popularity of “Iron Man” foretell anything new in the construction of masculinity? Is Tony Stark the first of the post-Bush heroes, or is it just that he has rilly rilly cooooooool toys?
A healthy person would not ‘want’ to think about Peak Oil Gary. It leads to some pretty ugly conclusions. No offense intended.
Gary: Me, I just explained how I see every film that interests me in a theatre.
Sorry – You were asking why I was so dismissive of the new Indy film, and I went into why I’m dismissive of the whole theatre experience. Rambling…
OTOH – I’ll get up at 5 AM and spend a lot to drive into NYC, park ($!), and get half-price matinee tickets to a good show. That is not something you can beat at home. At least, not without rearranging the furniture…
Anyone other than wingnut radio talk-show hosts aghast and up in arms about HRC’s loaded reference to staying in it ’til June?
check out KOS or Balloon Juice (or me, even): they’re plenty fired-up. the thread below this, too.
I just saw Indy, and no spoilers from me, but I agree it was better than Temple, and has a couple fun scenes.
All I have to say is…
Fuck Spielberg.
The movies I remembered as a kid were much much much better.
“The movies I remembered as a kid were much much much better.”
They always are.
This has nothing whatever to do with the movies, though, you know.
Peter Graham once said, and Terry Carr wrote it down, that “the golden age of science fiction is 13.”
Similarly, movies, and an endless number of experiences.
It’s useful, though, to realize this, and not confuse subjective changes of aging, and nostalgia, with external reality.
Dear Xanax. I trust you are well.
Much as I dislike Hillary Clinton, I did not find her mentioning Bob Kennedy vulgar or in bad taste. As far I could tell, she meant nothing vicious.
Sincerely, Sean
As this has been declared an open thread, I’ve decided to use this as an opportunity to get the hang of inserting links to notes.
With the blog owners consent or indulgence, I’ll use one of my own little efforts: a discussion of David Laird Dungan’s book A HISTORY OF THE SYNOPTIC PROBLEM.
Sincerely, Sean
OCSteve, you have my complete sympathy about the movie experience being no good. Have you checked out whether your area has any of those (usually brewpub-run) theatres that widen the aisles, serve pizza, and such? Probably all of my top 10 movie-viewing rewarding outings of the last decade were at places like the Bagdad. It’s more casual in some ways, of course, but then it attracts precisely the crowd that does care about the ambience of the whole thing – I find the crowds much more cooperative and enjoyable.
I’m a touch skeptical that, as a technical matter, you’re more expert than Janusz Kamiński, Steven Spielberg, and the rest of their team, but I certainly make no claim to expertise on cinematography (…)
What kind of an argument is that? Famous people never mess up and always achieve what they set out to do? Come on, Gary, that’s ridiculous. As regards ‘expertise’, all you need is a good eye.
My daughter just got a degree in Anthropology, and she said every kid she knows in that field went in because of the Indy films. She was very worried that this one wouldn’t be very good and that then the next generation would think this is what an Indy film is. She hated it, and just despised the alien bit. Me too.
But we were all thrilled to see Karen Allen again – she was always the best heroine and a fine match for Indiana.
I’ve been hearing a lot of complaints about the alien thing, and it’s struck me as kind of . . . I don’t know, a double standard. Like, everyone’s supposed to accept at face value, within the movies’ universe, all the religious goings-on of the first three — the cleansing power of YWHW from the Ark, the Thuggee rituals, the Holy Grail that can age a man in seconds — but aliens? Oh, come on!
“As regards ‘expertise’, all you need is a good eye.”
Yes, and you’re saying that on the technical aspects of the cinematography, they were incompetent, and you can see it, and they couldn’t. Ok.
“…and just despised the alien bit. Me too.”
Fair enough. As I keep saying, I’d never argue with someone’s aesthetic preferences; we’re all entitled to them, as they are purely subjective.
But might you tell us a bit about why you despised “the alien bit”?
As Phil said, one can hardly object on grounds of implausibility. (And the whole point of the movie is that it’s thematically a Fifties B flying saucers movie, more than a Thirties serial, like the earlier three.)
I assume everyone spotted the Ark’s cameo in the warehouse, btw, right?
Gary,
I don’t remember my experiences w/ girls when I was 13 — heck, they were almost kind of scary back then — to be better than they were at 23, 33 or 43.
They were probably best at 18-25, talking in purely physical terms.
Now, in terms of being a good partner, both emotionally and taking care of business, I would say I have been at my best between 40-45 (and ongoing . . .) — The Married Years. I love my wife, and 9-year-old son; can’t imagine life without them.
Before them, it was just me and the dogs, CoCo and Bowser. Hamilton joined us three years ago — found the old Beagle three years ago on the side of the road, when he was 11; he’s 14 now, and he might live forever (either that or he will eat everything in sight first).
The Great Bonzo — who came before my girl CoCo (Golden Retriever mix) and my crazy boy Bowser (Border Collie mix), and Hamilton, and the gentle, handsome Bodie (cocker spaniel), whose life was cut way to short, and the schizophrenic, beautiful Lilly, an orange-and-gold Setter (don’t ask about Lilly, God rest her tortured soul) — made it to 13.
Thirteen is a ripe old age for a great big dog. Bonzo was a Rottweiler, Lab mix. His legs went out at the end, and very soon after that stomach cancer got him. But his heart, his big, big, heart, never wavered.
When I think of the Great Bonzo, which is every day, I often look at this quote by Milan Kundera posted nearby my computer at work:
“Dogs are our link to paradise. They don’t know evil or jealousy or discontent. To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden where doing nothing was not boring — it was peace.”
That was Bonzo and Me, at peace, in Eden, on that hillside, every day.
Since this is an Open Thread, I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts to share about dogs they’ve had, past or present . . .
Thanks.
BOBill: “Peak Oil is a bigger deal than anybody wants to think about. ”
It’s marvelous the way you believe you know what other people think, and that your thinking is ever so much acute than their’s.
Maybe it’s a Rip Van Winkle thing; Bill’s been asleep since about 1972, and just woke up only to discover that cheap, plentiful oil is on the way out.
There are alternatives to heavy use of petroleum based inputs for agriculture. The biggest impact of no-longer-cheap oil are, I think going to be on industrialized countries, who are no longer going to be able to organize themselves around a cheap, portable, and high-energy-density fuel.
To me, that seems like suburbanization, rather than urbanization, is at risk.
For the billions of people around the world who are just scratching by anyway, however, water and food are going to be a much higher priority.
Darfur: yes, the nomad arabs and the farmer blacks don’t like each other, but the thing they’re fighting over is water.
Potatoes are great, we could all benefit by eating a little less meat, and there’s nothing more ‘locally grown’ than stuff from your own back yard, but it might be that a more comprehensive program than a victory garden of spuds is called for.
This, however, is very insightful:
Rush Limbaugh does not understand
Sean, your link unfortunately did not work. The book sounds interesting (to me anyway) if you’d like to try again.
Thanks –
Dogs are our link to paradise. They don’t know evil or jealousy or discontent.
Actually, I did know one evil dog, a family pet we had when I was young. He was a criminal mastermind.
He would go to the bus stop in the morning, growl at the kids, then steal their lunches and eat them. True story.
We finally had to get rid of him when he broke into a neighbors chicken coop and made off with the pet hen that their kids had gotten as an Easter chick. Blood and feathers everywhere, three hysterical kids, and a very angry mom and dad on the horn to my folks. Not pretty.
We took him to the pound. The pound was surrounded by an eight foot chain link fence, then another four foot chain link fence.
A couple of weeks after we dropped him off, we got a phone call. Single woman, lived by herself in a slightly remote area. Do we own this dog? She had gotten our contact information from his tags.
Why do you ask, we inquire tentatively.
He’d been hanging around her house, kind of acting like a watchdog. She sort of liked that, gave her a feeling of security, so she’d been feeding him, and did we mind if she adopted him?
No problem, says we.
How did he get out? We have no idea.
How did he make his way to the home of a single woman in a secluded area, and what made him decide to start playing the loyal watchdog?
Criminal genius.
Thanks –
I am so glad that you brought up the subject of dogs!
Here’s an update on Lassie: she’s miserable and i don’t know if my intervention in her life was rerally helpful. Maybe the NA attitude of letting things take theri course would have been wiser.
Anyway she is in a no-kill shelter that wi well run and clean and managed entirely by volunteers– a truly noble effort. I go there twise a week now and walk dogs. I wolked eight dogs yesterday!
Lassie chewed her stitches out and eveserated herslef. She had to go back to the ver for a week. Now she is back in her kennel, on benedrill and antibiotics, and wearing a collar to keep her from scratching. Everyone but me thinks she has an allergy to someting. I think that it is sgtress. When I got my corgi mix he was bald on his butt and his paws from conpulsive licking. We gave him tranquilizers until he learned our routines and settled in. Now blad spots and compulsive behavior is no longer a proble.
I can’t let go of Lassie. I keep going round and round in my mind about adopting her. The hangup is Blackie: he’s a cardigan corgie Jack Russel mix and possesive. I know how he tgreats dogs that come into his house (jealously).
Lassie is half Staffordshire terrier. They are wonderful human orietented dogs but potentially gdog agressive and they have one hell of a bite. I have never seen Lassie exhibit agression toward a dog, but what would she do if my corgie were to snarl at her?
I have these nightmare senarios of dag fights in my mind. Tthen I think og god don’t be such a worrier. Backie is a male and a delta. Lassie is female and not particularly alpha. They would have issues with each other’s exsitance but nothing unsurmountable.
And round and round I go in my head.
Thanks for letting me whine about this on the open thread.
Yes, and you’re saying that on the technical aspects of the cinematography, they were incompetent, and you can see it, and they couldn’t. Ok.
You seem to have a mistaken idea of how such a blockbuster is produced. Not everything Spielberg or Kaminski touch turns to gold immediately and once things have gone wrong, there’s limited or no opportunity for reshoots and fixing it in post only goes so far. I didn’t say they were incompetent, but they were certainly not on top of their game – shit happens.
Russell/10:41 am —
A criminal genius, indeed.
And, in the end, a great dog.
That story was one for the books.
It brought a great big smile to this dog lover’s face.
Thank you.
wonkie/10:43 am —
I feel your pain.
Adding a new dog to an existing-dog household can be troublesome.
When I got CoCo from the pound (it was love at first sight), the intent was to give Bowser, who I only had at that point for about three or four months, a companion. Bowser was, and still is, a hanful. But I love him.
Anyhow, the hope was that CoCo would settle him down. (Like I’m a dog physcolgist — sic? — or something, right?).
And she did, and he has — to a point; after all, Bowser is Bowser.
But two does seem perfect.
If they get along.
Three dogs?
Unless you have a farm or something big like that — we have a 40-year-old rancher that, thankfully, has a good-sized backyard — I would not recommend it.
That really seems to upset the dog dynamic.
When I brought Hamilton into the mix, CoCo, who I admit I spoil, was jealous of having another dog in the mix (she’s OK w/ Bowser because she seems to instinctly know he came first).
Yes, Milan, she was jealous.
She seemed especially annoyed by Hamilton’s baying.
And she snapped at him a couple times — very scary when it happens.
But three/four years later, they are the best of friends.
Go figure.
A criminal genius, indeed.
No joke. We still wonder how he got out of the pound.
The family joke is that he paid off the night shift guy in cigarettes.
Thanks –
If I had a yard I wouldn’t be so worried. However I live in a condo. Both dogs would have to be in door dogs. Long walks every day of course, but in doors the rest of the time.
Plus Blackie is old. He’s had a hard life and now he is happy in his retiement home.
But when Lassie sees me she ties herself in knots, squealing, whimpering, tail wagging… she’s friendly to all of the staff but she trembles from head to foot with emotion when she sees me.
I sneak around the kennel trying to stay out of her sight while I walk the other dogs.
I had no idea that she had gottne so attached. I didn’t know I had gotten so atached with
Well its off to work now.
Russel i’m glad your insoucient doggie found the right home!
My customary remark is that we’d all be better off if dogs ran the world.
I sorely miss Mingmar the Tibetan Spaniel, who left my ambit with his beloved mistress the ex-fiancee.
No matter how miserable I might be, and there have been some doozies (sp? looks odd) he could always warm my heart and make me smile.
And the inimitable Jasmine, my son’s dog, was the heart of the household. Not certain but likely a Lab-Rott mix, from the pound. Personality and heart and a comfort to all.
Sadly diminished by the time she had to be put to sleep. At least the downhill slide wasn’t long and drawn out.
Dogs (ought to) rule.
I’ve heard that there are around 12 million people in the New York City area proper. At 2,000 calories per day, that works out to 8.76 x10 to the twelfth power calories per year (8.8 trillion).
You get 300 cwt/acre of potatoes, or 12 million ironic calories per acre if the land is managed well. 730,000 calories equals one person-year. Thus the population of New York equals over 12 million acres, or around twenty thousand square miles of efficiently run land (powered with batteries?).
Given human nature and soil; make that over one hundred thousand square miles. Add in widespread dependency on a government that has made $70 trillion in unfunded promises and peak oil.
The suburbs will serve as a nice buffer. The natives can rally at Linens n Things. Personally, I’ll stick with my backyard and a peaceful, easy feeling.
Personally, I’ll stick with my backyard and a peaceful, easy feeling.
Sounds like a plan that will suit us all.
Enjoy!
Thanks –
Dear Russell. Thanks for your note.
I feel frustrated and stupid both! One of these days I will get the hang of inserting links into notes here.
If you dont mind, send me an email and I will link you to my discussion of Dungan’s VERY interesting book that way.
Far too briefly, Dungan does not believe in the Q/Markan priority/two source theory of the writing of the gospels.
Sincerely, Sean
Dogs rule.
Dogs. Love. Trucks.
Dog Day Afternoon.
The dog days of August.
Dog tired.
It’s a dog’s life.
Not fit for a dog.
Three Dog Night.
Anybody got any other dog phrases/sayings/etc?
(Boy, do I love dogs. I can be having the worst day in the world — kind of like right now (don’t ask) — but the sight of my three dogs (I call them “the Knuckleheads”) always makes me feel better. Can be having the worst day in the world, and see a dog with his head sticking out the window of a car/truck (saw one driving home last night), and I smile and I know all is right w/ the world.
Doggone right.
Saw the new Indy witht he family today. Not great, but a very worthwhile return of the franchise. Shoulda’ been titled Indiana Jones and the Chariots of the Gods.
Saw the new Indy witht he family today. Not great, but a very worthwhile return of the franchise. Shoulda’ been titled Indiana Jones and the Chariots of the Gods.
If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man.
-Mark Twain
Yes. Dogs rule.
A while ago I mentioned that a dog I loved was old and ill. We had him put to sleep soon thereafter when he could no longer breathe because of the cancer in his lungs.
He gave me a lot, including some wonderful memories.
May he rest in peace.
Russell: Great dog story.
And yes – dogs rule. Or at least they should.
Anybody got any other dog phrases/sayings/etc?
“That’s the real dog tip”
Thanks –
Anybody got any other dog phrases/sayings/etc?
“He’s got more money than a show dog can jump over.”
Great Twain quote, Bernard.
Sorry to hear of your loss. Never imagined I would have lost a dog as big and strong, as carefree and happy, as the Great Bonzo to cancer or anything else.
I don’t know why but Bonzo was the one dog I always thought would live forever. Stupid, I know.
So, when he was sick, and I took him to the vet and the vet gave me the bad news, I couldn’t believe it. And then the vet gave me the old “it’s a matter of time.”
Told the vet Bonzo was having good days and bad days, the bad outweighing the good. And the vet, a nice young lad, sympathetic and all, told me that’s natural. I asked him if I should put my dog down right then and there.
And I appreciated the fact that he was upfront and said no, that — the good-day, bad-day pattern would continue, and why not let him have a few more good?
I asked him how much longer I could expect him to live and he told me two months. Bonzo made it about six weeks, so the young vet was right.
He was also right about this: I asked him how I would know when it would be time to put him down and he said “you’ll know.”
When the time came, I knew.
It was a Sunday night, and Bonzo’s breathing became strained and painful. I knew this was it and I would be putting him down in the morning.
So, I laid on the ugly green blanket of his in the dining-room corner of our old house and stroked his big strong belly from time to time. Occasionally, I would say something soft. Bonzo and I always had great conversations, although I admit they were a bit one-sided. But his eyes always communicated back to what I was saying verbally and, yeah, we had some great conversations.
We didn’t talk much that last night. His eyes had lost that gleam, not even much of a glimmer now. Me, I was crying. Hell, I’m started to cry now.
When his breathing got real heavy, I kept telling he what a good boy he was. And how he was the best ball-catcher in the world — Bonzo could catch a tennis ball like nobody’s business. Kept telling him what a strong boy he was. How he always made me smile. How he got me through so many tough times. I apologized to Bonzo for the two or three times I ever yelled at him in our 13 years together, and who knows what else I said. As usual, Bonzo listened. And around 4 a.m. I fell asleep, right there on that stinky green blanket.
Woke up around 6 a.m. — thinking it was time, time to put him down. Got up, went to the bathroom, wiped off more tears. Then I noticed. Bonzo had passed.
There would be no need to make that dreaded trip to the vet. He died at home, on his stinky green blanket, with me, the way he wanted it, I suppose.
Only dog I ever buried.
It was February and the ground was rock hard. And Bonzo weighed 100 pounds, give or take. Never dug a whole so deep. Cried the whole time I dug it.
Found a good-sized stone to use as a marker. Wrote on it, “Here lies the best ball-catcher in the whole world, my big boy, Bonzo.
Picked him up off that stinky old green blanket. And that was it. Bonzo was at rest, right under the first tree I ever planted, a crimson-colored Thunder Clap that grew strong and big and fast, just as he had been.
I always think I cheat the dogs that have come after: Hamilton and his baying that we love and hate; Bowser and his Bowserness, always giving a paw with a guilty look, the one trick he knows — and won’t stop doing, as if it is some get-out of-jail-free card every time he does something bad; and even CoCo, my pretty girl, my new ball-catcher.
But Bonzo was the best.
And one day, if there is a heaven, and if I am lucky enough to go there, I know I will meet up with Bonzo. I know he will still be my big stinky boy. I know he will greet me with a half-chewed yellow tennis ball, that he insists on rolling around in his slobbery mouth before he expects me to put my hand out and allow him plop it right on my nice dry hand when he is good and ready.
Then we share that old familar look, his soulful eyes meeting mine, and we are together again.
(Sorry, guys. I don’t know what happened. Thanks for the indulgence. And thanks to anyone who has ever loved and lived with their own Bonzo.)
btfb: *hugs*
And . . .
It’s raining cats and dogs.
All Dog’s Go to Heaven (even Russell’s rogue criminal.)
Every dog has its day.
“He couldn’t even get elected as dog-catcher.”
A shaggy-dog story.
“Never trust a person who doesn’t like a dog.” (My own credo)
The hair of the dog.
“The dog ate my homework.”
Yes, dogs rule.
Thanks, hilzoy.
Thanks.
Doggone it.
Dogtown (that was the nick name of the univiserity part of town).
Dogs meaning feet.
doggedly
btfb, thanks for the beautiful story.
btfb,
I understand every word, I think.
Junior wasn’t a ball-catcher, or chaser. His attitude, conveyed with looks, was, “You threw it, you go get it.”
He and I invented a game I called “dodge dog.” I would stand some distance away, and he would charge at me at full tilt. (This was a 100-lb mostly German Shepherd, so that was a sight in itself). At the last second he would veer right or left or just stop in his tracks, and I would try to grab him. I awarded myself a point if I succeeded, him a point otherwise.
I usually lost.
New York State has a land area of 47,000 square miles. Assuming a perfectly efficient food supply system using a high yield crop like potatoes, one half of New York State would be needed to feed New York City.
That works out to be a 140 mile by 140 mile square. I trained to run in a marathon once and made it 13 miles. 13 miles is a long way, even without carrying a sack of potatoes. 26 miles is a longer way. 140 miles is longer still.
It’s going to be an interesting century. We should be investing money in electrifying our rail systems and building nuclear power plants. But we won’t. Thus backyard potatoes.
People think that electric cars and electric heat would be able to replace gasoline and heating oil. Theoretically, this is true. In practice however, it cannot save us from what’s coming.
Electric transmission capacity is fixed by series resistance, series inductance, shunt conductance, and shunt capacitance. The cost and physical work associated with rapidly upgrading our nation’s generation and transmission capacity to carry all of our transportation and heating load, in the face of skyrocketing fuel and materials costs, would likely overwhelm any government, especially a democracy.
One of the American Presidency’s last acts will likely be to sign an Executive Order waiving environmental and permitting restrictions for new power projects. But it will be too late. When you see this happen, stay away from Cities. But don’t come near me; I’ve got a peaceful easy feeling. Get to rural Georgia or somewhere like that before they block the roads.
Thus backyard potatoes. This season is for practice.
You might say:
“But I don’t own land.”
Obama might say:
“But my wife won’t let me touch the lawn.”
Bill says:
Stop making excuses.
Am I the only one vaguely disquieted by Brick Oven Bill’s peaceful easy feeling?
Bill says:
Stop making excuses.
Russell says:
Dude, give it a rest.
To be honest, you lost me at the AK47.
By all means, grow yourself a big old heap of potatoes. Store them in what your ‘ancestors’ called the ‘root cellar’, and stand guard over your precious hoard with your assault rifle. Best keep a watchful eye out, you never know who will be sneaking in to steal your spuds.
The rest of us will just have to make do with our soylent green.
Have fun!
Thanks –
For the record, ‘near me’ means property lines in tough times. But to minimize the importance of liquid fuel to those things to which we have allowed ourselves to become accustomed is a mistake.
I mowed the lawns of elderly people as a kid. They kept money in their mattresses and canned their own food. I believe that this was due to their life experiences.
What we’re facing now is spooky compared to what they faced. And I am having fun, thanks. Gardening is therapeutic, you’ve gotta tend the earth if you want a rose.
Just to be clear here Bill:
Are you actually equating
gardening in a rose-bed
(with pruning shears, mulch and a spade)
and fighting off the aphids
with guarding your property line
with an AK47 and fighting off
the neighbors?
I sense you’re actually being un-ironic with your “peaceful easy feeling” reference. Which I find doubly frightening.
Not my neighbors xanax. We all get along good. As a matter of fact, the whole community does.
My premise is that large population centers have become dependent on liquid fuels, which will have to be rationed soon. I do not live in a large population center. My community has no wish to become a large population center though, I suspect.
Large population centers should go to Georgia. They’re nice there.
To me the new Indy seemed like work. Maybe I was just younger, but the others sucked me in. This one left me feeling oddly detached. Maybe it was the poor characters or perhaps Cage’s movies have just worn me out on stone temple transformers. Then again, maybe it was the aliens.
Anyway, it just wasn’t fun; not like Iron Man. Jeez, I hope Norton can pull off The Hulk…
OK, so what you’re actually saying to everyone but your neighbors is, in a crisis, don’t come near me (across my property line?) because I have an AK47 (the peaceful easy feeling model) and I know how to use it. That about sum it up?
Do you get off on the idea of a global “liquid fuel” catastrophe that cripples the world but leaves Brick Oven Bill (and his hearty neighbors) happily munching tire spuds (roasted on backyard brick ovens) with assault rifles slung over your shoulders against the scourge of starving strangers?
I hope you won’t be too disappointed if it doesn’t happen.
Hi xanax;
We don’t need tires. And you won’t get near my property.
XOXO;
B.O.B. “And you won’t get near my property.”
Yo, Rambo… what zip code is Paradise Spud Farm in? (If you tell me, I’ll be able to avoid it on purpose).
btfb: That’s a powerful story – and I’d add, a very nice piece of writing.
Right up until here, I was wondering how I’d missed the whole race, and what Gary was doing in Indianapolis.
Great — or at least, equally great — minds, Slarti.
But to minimize the importance of liquid fuel to those things to which we have allowed ourselves to become accustomed is a mistake.
Couldn’t agree more.
Further, I think the idea of moving away from centralized food production (and production of other things, including energy) is an excellent one.
Where you leave me behind is with the AK47.
The way of life you’re talking about wasn’t lived by our ‘ancestors’. My father and both my in laws grew up that way. Grow your own food, barter extra stuff and labor for what you can’t grow or hunt, make your own clothes, etc. Even my mother, who grew up in Brooklyn, had chickens as a girl.
We could do all of that again if we need to.
But none of my folks found it necessary to arm themselves against other people. They had guns to hunt. If they needed to use a gun to protect themselves, they could and would, but the idea was just not something they put any attention to.
As a final point, if the social order breaks down enough that you need to keep an AK47 handy just to insure your personal safety and that of your family, an AK47 ain’t gonna do it. Range is too short, it’s not particularly accurate. One guy with a good long range rifle will drop you in your front yard when you go to get the mail.
Just saying.
Thanks –
Brick Oven Bill’s attitude is of course not just bad economics and sociology – cooperation is a positive-sum thing – it’s profoundly un-American. Cooperation in the face of adversity is the American way, quite literally in the political realm (cf. “we pledge our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor” and “we the people”) and in practical terms routinely in the social realm. Basically, many of our ancestors have been smarter, or at least more practical, than Bill and his ilk about what actually helps people survive in times of trouble.
I don’t particularly wish to compel him to stop, but I wish that people would take un-American ideas like his to some country where they might be better appreciated. This is America, where we have a tradition of pulling together rather than apart, and I think that’s worth defending. Plenty of failed states would welcome in ex-Yanks who don’t care about cooperation.
This is America, where we have a tradition of pulling together rather than apart,
Ahhh, tradition.
Hey, they were un-American losers too, as are those who idolize them now.
This is a really handy stance sometimes.
Back in the 50s the very real worry was thermonuclear war which, fortunately, didn’t happen. The residents of Golden Colorado (Coors) had a plan to deal with refugees that they didn’t know from Denver. That was back in the 50s in Colorado.
I’m all for freedom, but I believe that other people’s freedom ends where my nose begins. That is very American.
So grow potatoes (please).
And everything depends on range. I don’t need the mail, but nevertheless I think I’ll be able to walk to the mailbox in relative safety. We’ve got Connecticut.
This: “I believe that other people’s freedom ends where my nose begins.”
In light of this: “And you won’t get near my property.”
Loosely translates to shoot ’em if they cross the property line.
Mighty big nose you got there Bill.
And by the way, Bruce and Russell, I’m always glad when skilled and reasoned voices are able to articulate what I would have said, had I the skill.
You’re taking be out of context xanax. I have clearly stated ‘tough times’.
These are not tough times. They still sell cheese at Costco. Come on over for a pizza. I make excellent pizza. I need to find someone with a cow.
I do have a horseshoe court though.
“I do have a horseshoe court though. ”
You’re not using one of those ghastly potato-skin basketballs are you?
One guy with a good long range rifle will drop you in your front yard when you go to get the mail.
Sorry folks, this was stupid macho trash talk on my part. There’s enough of it around without me adding more.
If we get to the point where we need to be arming ourselves with assault rifles to insure our safety and that of our families, there will be no “peaceful easy feeling” happening anywhere. There are lots of places like that, and it sucks to be there. For everyone, armed or not.
My old man, both of my wife’s folks, and all of their folks in turn back as far as anyone remembers lived more or less the way Bill is talking about. It’s not a bad way of life, although they were all damned glad to get off of their various farms.
None of those folks found it necessary to arm themselves against anyone. And believe me when I tell you the times they lived through were tough.
If you want an assault rifle, Bill, live it up. I neither need nor want one, nor do I ever expect to need or want one.
Thanks –
Dear Russell. I hope you are well.
You should say, rather, “I HOPE to never need an assault rifle.”
I was reminded of S.M. Stirling’s novel DIES THE FIRE, based on wondering what would happen if “alien space bats” suddenly STOPPED our high energy, high technology civilization. That is, what would happen if the lights did not go on, power plants did not work, the internal combustion engine failed to go, gunpowder and explosives did not work, etc. Answer: NOT good for about 98 percent of the world’s population.
In a situation like that, it REALLY would be a situation where the best armed man will end up the new boss.
Sincerely, Sean
Sean –
There are no alien space bats.
The human race survived for 99.9% (approximately) of its time here on earth without our high energy, high technology civilization. If we need to do so again, we’ll find a way.
I’m not interested in being the new boss if it means I have to kill other people to do so. I’ll take my chances on cooperation.
Also, I owe you an email. I’ll drop you a line shortly.
Thanks –
Open thread, right? This is just sick:
Fox News Jokes About Obama Being Assassinated.
Dear Russell. Thanks for your note.
Hey! I was talking about a NOVEL. Authors are allowed to try out outlandish hypotheses, aren’t they? (Smiles)
And for 99 plus percent of human history, we did NOT have the kind of high energy/high technology we have today. IF, somehow, our tech stopped working ALL at once, it WILL mean diaster and death for about 95 percent of the human race.
Also, DESPERATE, starving people WILL fight and kill for food if that is what it takes for their families SURVIVAL. It would take TIME for a new society to emerge from the ruins of the old. Most likely, a neo feudal setup would arise. That is, farmers depending on war lords for protection from bandits and other warlords.
But, I hope you read SM Stirling’s DIES THE FIRE. It truly is a good, fascinating read.
Yes, I got your email. Many thanks. I replied, including the link to my discussion of the Dungan book. I hope you got it.
Sincerely, Sean
Dear Sean,
The topic of a collapse or destruction of technological society is a recurring theme in SF. No doubt Gary can provide many examples.
In the real world, even though we surely face a decline in availability of cheap energy, I doubt it will be sudden or catastrophic.
I for one do not wish to live in a pre-technological society. It has many discomforts I prefer to avoid.
Cockeyed optimist that I am, I choose to believe that somehow we will muddle through and even perhaps wind up with a better society. This will require much ingenuity to achieve (both technical and political) but I think it can be accomplished.
“There are no alien space bats.”
I don’t think you can prove that.
“The human race survived for 99.9% (approximately) of its time here on earth without our high energy, high technology civilization.”
With a fraction of the population.
“Hey! I was talking about a NOVEL. Authors are allowed to try out outlandish hypotheses, aren’t they?”
In science fiction, it’s practically a requirement.
As you probably know, Sean, Steve Stirling’s website is here. The book you refer to is, in fact, the first of a trilogy; you can find sample chapters of the succeeding two books there, as well as some additional material. The first 11 chapters are here, if you want to recommend them to someone.
It’s also set in the same universe Steve used for Island in the Sea of Time; here is a quick review and plot summary of Dies The Fire, for anyone interested.
Continued in next comment, due to number of links.
Although I’ve read some of Steve’s other novels, I’ve not read any of those — though I’ve done freelance work in the past for both Baen and Roc; I do recommend, if you like after-the-apocalypse survival tales, the older classics Earth Abides, by George Stewart, and Alas, Babylon, by Pat Frank. You might also try Vernor Vinge’s The Peace War, and the sequel, Marooned In Realtime, collected in Across Realtime (these were originally Bluejay Books, Jim Frenkel’s now defunct company, back when I was doing a lot of freelance work for Jim).
You might also, perhaps, give my old friend Bob Wilson’s Spin a try. (I’d recommend more or less all of Bob’s work to those looking for a bit more of a high end approach than Steve Stirling.)
Incidentally, Sean, what did you think of the Wiccan aspect of DTF?
“I for one do not wish to live in a pre-technological society.”
Ah, but there may be many possible sorts of post-technological societies. Or ones where, say, manipulated biology is the primary technology. Or nanotechnology is taken to some pre-Singularity, but powerful level.
“IF, somehow, our tech stopped working ALL at once, it WILL mean diaster and death for about 95 percent of the human race.”
I have to agree with Sean there, although the probablility of such a thing happening is, shall we say, on the low side. Maybe if somehow we were bombarded with recurring EMPs from space, or other equally low-probability events took place. But, y’know, given Sean’s phrasing, he is correct, no matter that it’s more a matter of fiction and thought-experiment, rather than something to lose sleep about.
At least on a planetary level. One’s own small corner of Earth might be a different matter, depending upon where one is.
I think the most likely realistic scenarios are (a) large-scale nuclear war and (b) large asteroid impact. Both, I hope, low probability.
Alien space bats I would be willing to bet against.
Yes, I guess it’s too late for “pre-technological.” I should have been more careful in my choice of word.
I also don’t care for the likely transition to the sort of post-technological, non-utopian world that we’ve been discussing. It would be -ahem- unpleasant.
“Alien space bats I would be willing to bet against.”
I’ll bet you a nickel they’ll drop by in our lifetime, just so I can have a win-win bet.
I do like the careful, non-redundant, phrasing, since we’re presumably distingishing from the non-alien space bats.
Soc.history.what-if used to be fond of them, though.
This does make me wonder what Sean might make of Ken MacLeod’s stuff. Oh, kewl, Ken started blogging again while I wasn’t looking.
The real problem we’re facing now, the high-probability one, is that cumulative consequences of lots of things will overwhelm us thanks to synergistic effects. It’s a bit like AIDS that way: it’s not that AIDS kills you by itself, but that it weakens your body’s ability to fight off anything else, so that every last obscure infection in your vicinity is now a potential killer.
The most accessible writing I know of on the subject of catastrophic climate change, past and present, comes from U of Washington biologist Peter Ward. Under a Green Sky summarizes the state of the art in research into the mass extinction at the end of the Permian era and why it’s relevant to contemporary policy and planning. Throughout his work there’s a strong emphasis on the complexities nobody foresaw, and how actual living systems are much more complex than the sum of their isolated parts. It is, frankly, not an encouraging picture, but it’s important.
Side note on SF: Steve Stirling is often taken to be a conservative because of his opposition to certain aspects of liberal culture, and outright misread as a fascist for his interest in the circumstances under which a fictional fascist society might flourish. (That is, twits take him as endorsing the alternate history of his Draka stories. No, he doesn’t.) In fact he’s a Canadian gentleman residing in these southron lands, and very much in favor of national health care and other features many of his most vocal fans would hate. He’s a strong believer in the importance of strong, healthy communities in which foreseeable, preventable problems get foreseen and prevented.
(Disclaimer: I like Steve, and am happy for the years we chatted on GEnie, as well as being a fan of his work.)
When my daughter was very young, maybe 4 years old, once when my wife picked her up from pre-K she started crying. When asked, “what’s wrong,” she replied “how will I ever learn everything?”
ObWi makes me sympathize.
Ral: I hear ya. 🙂
My advisor in college said that part of a liberal arts education should be learning what you can trust others to know, and find out who to trust to know it for you.
Your advisor’s wise words, Bruce, should be updated to include that what’s now equally crucial is learning how to find information on the internet that you can trust, and how to distinguish it from just information on the internet.
G’night.
The reason for that Bruce is because your college advisor assumed the people to be stupid.
Agreed, Gary. I’m pleased at how much of what I learned in the mid-1980s about evaluating sources quickly still applies, but there’s room for someone to write a good compact guide that takes the general principles and focuses specifically on common net searches, investigating spammed/recirculated claims, and like that.
BOB, if you have any other insights into the matter, Dr. Cooney’s now the dean of Townson University’s college of liberal arts, and you can contact him. He might not give you much time, given as how you haven’t the faintest idea what you’re talking about, but who knows?
(No link provided because I don’t really want to make it too easy to harass him. I left U of Puget Sound amid bad feelings all around, but it was a long time ago, and mostly the result of health problems that were weird and scary all around. Terry doesn’t deserve utterly pointless rambling, not when I’m being appreciative of his good influence.)
Well he made Dean of Townson University’s college of liberal arts. That’s great. I’ll keep my potatoes. Hugs and kisses.
I really need to remember not to feed the troll.
“The reason for that Bruce is because your college advisor assumed the people to be stupid.”
It continues to be remarkable, Bill, how everyone but you is stupid.
Stupid college people! [/homer voice]
Of course, it’s doubtless my genetic defect that makes such thoughts occur to me.
I’d still love to hear more about this: “Jews are some of the smartest people on the planet. But they have a consistent track record of being on the wrong side of history. I believe that this has to do with their thought processes.”
Tell us more about their thought processes, Bill, and the genetic “defect especially prevalent in Jews” that “afflict[s]” our “minds,” please.
Don’t stop when you’re on a roll.
Gary, you’ve helped me find BOB’s voice. It’s in the Weird Al Yankovic movie UHF, except without the kung fu prowess and all.
Bruce is calling me names. There is a rule against that.
Hi Gary, here’s a two drink rule violation:
Two of my wife’s ancestral families were wiped out. They were farmers. “You can carry the child to term if it turns out to be a girl”. Jump a ship. Not Germans though. Englishmen and Russians.
Nonetheless, she objects to firearms in the house. She is brilliant, but sometimes I do not understand her thought processes.
“There are no alien space bats.”
I don’t think you can prove that.
You got me there. I retract my statement that there are no alien space bats.
“The human race survived for 99.9% (approximately) of its time here on earth without our high energy, high technology civilization.”
With a fraction of the population.
Quite right.
Look, we’ve had a relatively free ride for 100 or so years. Oil’s a very convenient energy source.
As predicted over 50 years ago, it’s going to be increasingly expensive. At some point, it won’t be practical to use it the way we do.
A lot of things will have to change. We can change them thoughtfully, or change can be imposed on us.
My guess is that it will play out as a mix of those things. Based on the history of the human race, my guess is also that it will involve a lot of disruption, bad behavior, short-sighted stupidity, and violence.
We can either do our best to figure it out, or we can hole up in our bunkers with our potatoes and AK47s.
Whichever choice we make, we should all realize that holing up in our bunkers isn’t going to give us anything approaching real security. There will always be somebody out there with a bigger gun.
And, all of that said, if you live in this particular country, this kind of talk is a lot of silly cartoonish posturing.
There are food riots in Haiti, there is a genocidal low-grade civil war in Darfur over access to water. Other examples exist. They’re all tragic. They’re not here.
We get up in the morning, eat breakfast, fill up our tanks, and go about our business. Nobody’s coming to steal our potatoes. Lucky us.
We have the time and the means to make the thoughtful and intelligent decisions that will enable us to do what we need to do without shooting at each other.
So, let’s do that. Maybe we can even help some other folks do the same.
AK’s apparently do make good varmint guns. And by ‘varmints’ I mean destructive rodents like groundhogs. Not people. So, Bill, your investment need not be wasted. The potato you save may be your own.
Thanks –
Dear Ral: Thanks for your note.
As a very long term SF fan, I have read my share of post Apocalyptic novels. Some of them being Frank’s ALAS, BABYLON, Walter Miller’s A CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWITZ, Poul Anderson’s AFTER DOOMSDAY. And later examples being Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle’s LUCIFER’S HAMMER and FALLEN ANGELS.
I agree, because it cannot be denied, that oil is not likely to ever again be as cheap as it used to be. IMO, the answer to that is to REPLACE or supplement oil. More nuclear power plants, solar energy beamed down from satellites in near Earth orbits, hydrogen fuel (GM and Ford have interesting experiments in hydrogen fueled cars), etc.
And, of course, the real future of the human race lies in space, with settling other worlds. We need to get OFF this rock.
Like you, I would not care to live in a pre technological world. I would NOT be likely to survive! (Smiles)
Sincerely, Sean
Thank you, OCSteve (5-25-08/8:37 am)
Thank you.
Just saw your note. Yesterday was a rare day off, even more rare since I didn’t log on even to check my email (got to get back to doing that more often, being computer-free for a day or two can unto itself give you a peaceful, easy feeling).
Cut the grass. Watched the Phillies on TV. Played horeshoes (by myself!). My 9-year-old boy was too absorbed w/ his buddy across the street, whose grandfather just opened the pool — try competing against a just-opened pool — and my wife isn’t a horsehoes thrower.
I did have some interaction w/ CoCo, my Golden Retriever mix, who has taken Bonzo’s place as the ball-catcher. I throw the ball against the house, and she chases it, hoping,as I do, that we get a good richochet.
Bowser is a strange one. A 70-pound Border Collie mix, he will spend a few token minutes outside w/ us — but has it in his head that he is an inside dog.
Hamilton loves the outdoors, and the indoors. He goes wherever he thinks he has the best chance of getting food. And if he’s outside, being a Beagle he bays and bays, and sniffs and sniffs, and despite his advanced age, 14-year-old Hamilton loves to chase 7-year-old CoCo. She wins every time, toys w/ him, and seems to just put up w/ him. But it’s funny to watch Hamilton become young again during their chases.
CoCo, she keeps me smiling. She’s my pretty girl and is the real outside dog. First dog I ever had that chases the lawn mower, even nipping the tires. Cracks me up. Yet she’s afraid of the vacuum cleaner. Go figure.
Look, Steve, you got me going again about dogs.
Have a nice Memorial Day everybody.
It’s beautiful here in Newark, Delaware, and my son and I have tickets to tonight’s Phillies game:)
“I retract my statement that there are no alien space bats.”
That is the best thing I will read on the internet this month.
Properly set in a feature film, it could become a cult phrase. Or, I guess, clause.
Properly set in a feature film, it could become a cult phrase.
I think you’re on to something.
“Alien Space Bat vs Tyrant King Porn Dragon”. Could be bigger than Godzilla vs Mothra.
It could, single-handedly, bring back the drive-in movie.
A guy can dream.
Thanks –
Dear Gary:
Thanks for the notes you sent to me. I’ll try to comment on the major points you addressed to me.
One reason I like SF more than most other types of fiction is because the best SF is so DARING and imaginative. Boring mainstream fiction about kinky sex and middle class angst does NOT appeal to me. (Smiles)
Yes, I’m familiar with Mr. Stirling’s work, altho I have not read everything he wrote. The first Stirling book I read was UNDER THE YOKE, about 19 or 20 years ago.
Besides DIES THE FIRE, I’ve also read Stirling’s THE PROTECTOR’S WAR, and A MEETING AT CORVALLIS. And I have read the ISLAND IN THE SEA OF TIME series as well.
Any comments about non series novels of Stirling like THE PESHAWAR LANCERS and CONQUISTADOR?
You asked for my opinion of Stirling’s use of Wiccaism in his DIES THE FIRE books. Truth to say I find Wicca singularly UNCONVINCING. I don’t believe in the Wiccan gods. To me, Wicca is empty of both solid theological content and a rigorously worked out system of ethics. Yes, I’m a Catholic and monotheist raised under an Aristotelian/Scholastic ethical system. (Smiles)
But, it was interesting to see how some desperate post Change suvivors glommed onto Wicca as something which gave some MEANING back in their lives. And it was interesting how Wicca was used to shape the new Mackenzie clan polity.
In DIES THE FIRE and its sequels, Stirling kinda makes it plain the Change was not a gruesome accident. Rather, “alien space bats” with a more advanced technology simply STOPPED our technology. For reasons unknown.
Thanks for recommending the works of Ken MacLeod and Bob Wilson to me. Alas, it’s so impossible to read everything we should. I grew up reading Robert Heinlein, Ray Bradbury, Isaac Asimov, and Poul Anderson. With PA being my SPECIAL favorite. And I like the works of later SF writers such as Julian May, Harry Turtledove, etc. Others, like Robert Silverberg’s Majipoor books comes to mind too.
Sincerely, Sean
So… my wife and I are out back eating lunch today, when overhead flies: a bat.
At noon. On a cloudless day. Bright sunshine everywhere.
Clearly, this was no ordinary bat.
So, you never know.
Thanks –
To me, Wicca is empty of both solid theological content and a rigorously worked out system of ethics.
Open thread, right?
Has anyone here ever read any of Miriam Simos (aka Starhawk)’s stuff on Wicca?
I’ve read her “Fifth Sacred Thing” (itself a work of dystopian fantasy fiction) and have read a number of articles by her, mostly having to do with her political work. She seems like someone who has thought through the meaning and practice of her (Wiccan, or at least pagan) beliefs.
I’m not sure if Wicca would have something akin to the kind of ‘solid theological content’ or ‘rigorously worked out system of ethics’ that characterizes, for instance, the output of the Catholic magisterium. So, if you were interested in gaining an understanding of it, you might have to consider other kinds of things.
Just throwing it out there as yet another point of view.
Thanks –
“Bruce is calling me names.”
Really? What names is he calling you? Cite?
“We can either do our best to figure it out, or we can hole up in our bunkers with our potatoes and AK47s.”
My helpful tip for the day: best not to confuse the two.
“We need to get OFF this rock.”
Let’s say “hurrah” for this, then, eh, Sean? Hip hip.
“One reason I like SF more than most other types of fiction is because the best SF is so DARING and imaginative.”
I don’t know if you’ve picked up on it, but in case you haven’t, I’ve worked on and off (mostly off, in the 21st century, so far) as an sf editor, and in various other capacities in book and magazine publishing, since my first working as an “Assistant Editor,” aka “slush reader” at Amazing and Fantastic, in 1975, when my old friend Ted White was editor, and my now deceased friend Lou Stathis (who went on to do much work in many venues, including at Heavy Metal, Vertigo, High Times, with Howie Chaykin, as an author of many novels under pseudonyms (New Hardy Boys, anyone), and much much more, before he died a few years ago of a brain tumor) was overloaded and passed on tons of work to me for the princely rate of $.25/manuscript. I was 16.
And I first became active in sf fandom, doing fanzines, and working on conventions, and so on, in 1971, eventually running a lot of bits of NYC’s Lunacon in the mid-Seventies, and particularly on the 1977 and 1978 Worldcon (and to other degrees for other years in the early Eighties), including as Director of Operations in ’78 and ’82, and retroactive Vice-Chair in ’78, as well as for many years accumulating one of the top 15 collections of sf fanzines and memorablia in the world, and becoming one of the top ten experts in the world on the history of science fiction fandom (I’ve done something over 100 panels and the like, as well as, well, lots of stuff).
So while I’ve been almost entirely gafiated from sf fandom since around 2001, sf and sf fandom was the core of my life for most of my life; even before I finally made contact, I’d been searching for ways to contact sf fandom for years, since July of 1967, until I finally found fanzines in 1971.
So I have plenty of back talk on sf, among other subjects.
In other news, I’m finding myself unexpectedly partially responsible for, and living with, a kitten, among other complications. It helps keep me off the internet, and out of trouble, but kitty does want to participate in ObWi by keyboarding from her place on my stomach, clearly. She says “mu” to everyone.
Russell, I’ve read “The Fifth Sacred Thing” many times. I treasure it exactly because Starhawk tried to work out, and make a picture of, Wiccan “ethics” in practice. I don’t know that much about Wicca, but as someone who was raised Catholic and left all that behind a long time ago, I’m pretty sure you’re right that trying to understand it (Wicca) by trying to find equivalents to things like “the magisterium” will be…not fruitful.
Another point of contact — from TiO recently, but I didn’t have time to respond when it came up — your mention of WER, and the further mention, by ferrydust, of an article by Candace Pert which I think was this one:
”The Material Basis of Emotions”. I’ve got dogeared photocopies of that article in my files because I have referred back to it so many times over the years……. Great stuff.
I wonder if, when I’m in the Boston area for work, we were to pass each other on the street, would there be some kind of “zing” of recognition, kind of mysterious like that bat flying around in the sunshine…. 😉
“I wonder if, when I’m in the Boston area for work, we were to pass each other on the street, would there be some kind of “zing” of recognition, kind of mysterious like that bat flying around in the sunshine…. ;)”
If at least a handful of folks would be interested in some kind of ObWiCon, some kind of gathering/party for a day or weekend, say, in the Maryland/D.C./Baltimore/Virginia area, perhaps sometime this fall, or winter, I’d be happy to offer to take the responsibility to do as much as I could at a distance to, if a couple of other people would also volunteer to take on tasks, make venue arrangements, and see that it comes off. It’s a doable drive from Raleigh, after all, and I’d figure it would be somewhere between 10-40 people, max, most likely, so not a big deal compared to the 8000+ attendee conventions, with 200+ program items, many standing exhibits and activities, and so on, that I spent many years working on Back In The Day.
Just a thought for possible discussion, and if not in Open Thread, where?, and if not now, why?, and if not me, who?
I have a big problem with Starhawk: she insists that several of my friends don’t exist. Or rather, she has no room in her system for the existence of transgendered as anything but delusional gay people. She’s kind of sort of softened a bit on this, but it’s still a big failed reality check in the socio-spiritual neighborhood where I live, and it make me wonder what else she’s missing that I happen not to have an independent window onto.
But then for ethics I tend to end up with some Christian mystics and some Daoist ones, anyway.
Sean: I liked Peshawar Lancers a lot. I haven’t gotten to Conquistador yet, but likely will some day. (My reading list at the moment is kind of heavy on ’60s-’80s sci-fantasy and books on mass extinctions, because I’ve got a kind of neo-sci-fantasy idea churning in my brain.) No intent to lecture you on Steve’s ouevre, by the way, and apologies if it sounded hamhanded or anything; I’ve just run into a lot of folks for whom Dies the Fire is their first experience of Steve’s work. I could have asked, and thanks for answering the question I omitted. 🙂
Bruce — I didn’t pick up on a specific attitude about transgendered people in anything of Starhawk’s that I read (maybe it went right by me in 5th Sacred Thing). But I do find the approach to gender in anything that requires “god/goddess” to explain the world to be not sufficient for my purposes.
On the other hand, some of the most wonderful people I have ever been associated with (years ago, in workshops called “Essential Peacemaking: Women and Men”) had an overly narrow notion of gender, in my opinion. But they were great folks, and willing to listen, so maybe we learned something from each other. One of the major things I tried to say to them was that (from my point of view as a person more or less homosexual, but somewhat biemotional, and while not transgendered, nevertheless in a vexed relationship to conventional notions of gender) they were confusing relationship “stuff” with gender “stuff” — and couldn’t tell the difference, since they were all “straight.” (Long topic……I’m oversimplifying, to say the least.)
In that respect as in many others, I am more apt to pick and choose what works for me from a variety of sources, than to take any system whole. There’s a lot in what I’ve read of Starhawk that has been useful to me, and unlike the Catholic Church, no Wiccan has ever told me I’m going to burn in hell unless I believe everything they do. 😉
As for gods and goddesses: I once had a profound experience in a workshop where one of the steps in the process we were doing was to imagine some “negative” feeling as a god or goddess with a message that we needed to hear. I couldn’t bring myself to use that terminology, but found that “deity” worked fine. And since I had 3 “negative” emotions I was working on (anger, jealousy, and fear), it was a neat fit to call them my “Great Trinity.”
Gary — a get-together would be fun. It would depend on timing…but that’s probably true for just about everyone.
JanieM, I completely agree that even the best people in the world have their blind spots. Perfection is not a practical standards. I think it makes sense of reach individual to be concerned about how systems work with regard to themselves and the people they care about (and the places and things, too), on the grounds that we live where we live.
Yo, Russell! Just a short note!
What! You may have seen an alien space bat?
(Smiles)
Just kidding!
Sincerely, Sean
Dear Russell. Another note!
No, I haven’t read any of Miriam Simos’ books. What I know of Wicca comes from both a good friend of mine and Catherine Edwards Sanders book WICCA’S CHARM.
Candidly, I have my doubts any kind of neo paganism will have philosophers and theologians like St. Augustine, Anicius M.S. Boethius, St. Thomas Aquinas, or Jacques Maritain. HOW can it, when Wiccans don’t even agree on which gods to believe?
After all, Aristotle and Plato, to name two of the ancient philosophers, were disdainful or skeptical of the pagan gods of their times. They leaned more to SOME kind of monotheism.
So, while I’m willing to learn more about Wicca, I’m still skeptical!
Sincerely, Sean
Dear Bruce. Thanks for your note.
Rest assured, I was not offended by anything you said to me.
I’m glad you liked Stirling’s THE PESHAWAR LANCERS. Probably one of his best novels. I was interested to see how Anglicanism seemed to be on the way to being ABSORBED by Hinduism in a British Empire centered in India.
Sincerely, Sean
f at least a handful of folks would be interested in some kind of ObWiCon, some kind of gathering/party for a day or weekend, say, in the Maryland/D.C./Baltimore/Virginia area, perhaps sometime this fall, or winter,
Oh, sure, AFTER I move all the way back to Cleveland comes an event where I could meet you guys. >:(
To me, Wicca is empty of both solid theological content and a rigorously worked out system of ethics.
“Unlike Christianity, of course,” he said sardonically.
Your “bigger gun theory” is flawed Russell, but many people believe it. The “big guns” were in the Bastille. Those big guns are a subset of politics, which are local. Semi-automatic rifle technology is a mature technology; it has not been improved upon since 1947, and probably never will be. So AKs are probably as big as guns will ever get. Fancy does not equal big. Hitting cans at 50 yards is good enough. Rugged is better than fancy. There are plenty of bolt-actions anyway.
I again state that mine are purely defensive and I hope to never use them.
I had to fire a guy once whom I knew had a Glock. It had unfortunately gotten personal. It was extremely unnerving to me. I believe that the fear I felt that day was understood by the Founding Fathers and is the basis of the 2nd Amendment. I think that those guys were some of the smartest people to ever walk the planet.
Thoughts and prayers for those fighting and dying in this idiotic war.
“Candidly, I have my doubts any kind of neo paganism will have philosophers and theologians like St. Augustine, Anicius M.S. Boethius, St. Thomas Aquinas, or Jacques Maritain. HOW can it, when Wiccans don’t even agree on which gods to believe?”
Christians disagree about plenty, themselves, and always have. Ditto every other religious tradition.
Time and sufficient population and the right cultural conditions and incentives bring forth great religious art and thinking and philosophizing. I see no objective evidence to indicate that any one religion has an inherent advantage over another in producing those reults, beyond the aforementioned conditions allowing. Your Mileage May Vary.
And, to be sure, I’m not a follower of any religion, though I have great respect for many aspects of many religions, and how some people practice them — and less respect for other aspects, and other forms of practice.
“‘Unlike Christianity, of course,’ he said sardonically.”
Phil, do you really want to start a religion flame war?
Wouldn’t an OS flame war be more productive? Or spending time exchanging slaps with big wet fishes in the face with everyone?
But speaking as someone with no shred of Christianity (I’m a, if we have to pin labels, which I don’t feel a particular need to do for myself, more or less atheist ethnic Jew), I have no problem whatever saying that I think it’s an objectively fair statement to say that a number of flavors of Christianity, and specifically including various traditions of Catholicism, have produced at various times, “solid theological content and a [fairly] rigorously worked out system of ethics.”
I don’t share the theology at all, and there are many bits of some of the ethical systems that I don’t agree with, but I don’t see why that statement is unreasonable, or in any way indicative of, say, an intolerant attitude saying that only Christianity or Catholicism can have those things.
And I find Thomas Aquinas a valuable thinker, well worth reading, no matter that I’m not in the least Catholic. Just as I find much of worth in some Taoist writings, some Buddhist writings, some Jewish writings (Maimonides, and many in the rabbinic tradition), in some Christian Protestant writings, in some Hindu writings, and so on and so forth.
Again, YMMV, but you can probably have the last word, if you like.
Wicca lacks “both solid theological content and a rigorously worked out system of ethics”
I suspect that Wiccans consider that a feature, not a bug.
Re: rigorously-worked-out systems of ethics, allow me to quote Merton’s paraphrase of Chuang Tzu:
The invention
of weights and measures
makes robbery easier.
Signing contracts, setting seals,
makes robbery more sure.
Teaching love and duty
provides a fitting language
with which to prove that robbery
is really for the general good.
As a practicing lawyer, I think Chuang Tzu was on to something.
I like that quote, Anderson.
In theory I approve of detailed analysis applied to belief systems. But the older I get, the more I tilt toward works. I’d rather live in a world of people completely confused about their doctrines but totally reliable in their practical ethics – their kindness, compassion, generosity, cooperation, and so on – than in a world of people with completely correct belief and no practical charity. And it doesn’t seem like past a certain very basic point there’s any correlation between one’s philosophy or theology and one’s ability and desire to live humanely.
In the extreme case, I’d rather live in a world where nobody believes in anything numinous but everybody does good. Right now we seem too often close to the other extreme.
John McCain wishes Barack Obama a happy Memorial Day:
I bet Obama enjoys nibbling on fancy cheese and speaks fluent French, too.
I’d be up for an ObWiCon if it’s relatively near DC.
My big event for the day was trekking out to Rockville to check out Kam Sam Supermarket. There aren’t any Chinese groceries in DC anymore, probably because rents in our sad little Chinatown have become prohibitive. Not that I ever got around to visiting them in the years when they may have existed.
Bought about $15 worth of stuff after spending 45 minutes going through all the aisles and examining cans and bottles of all sorts of stuff looking for English text. I did find the Sichuan things I intended to get.
At the moment I’m cooking some unidentified (except in Chinese) leaves and stems that I think are young Chinese broccoli.
“I’d rather live in a world of people completely confused about their doctrines but totally reliable in their practical ethics – their kindness, compassion, generosity, cooperation, and so on – than in a world of people with completely correct belief and no practical charity.”
Yes.
At this point I’m simply reminded of the elaborate outline for what she was once looking for in a perfect boyfriend that Bridget Fonda described in Cameron Crowe’s Singles, and how she wound up saying she’d be willing to settle for someone who said “gesundheit” when she sneezes.
(I paraphrase slightly.)
“I bet Obama enjoys nibbling on fancy cheese and speaks fluent French, too.”
Muslim French cheese. It wants to cut your throat and surrender.
Hmmm, is there a link between cheesecloth and muslin that Powerline or Malkin could express outrage over? Muslin is named for Mosul after all. I’m certain more digging will reveal the breadth of the conspiracy.
The Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter photographed the Phoenix probe as it was parachuting through Mars’ atmosphere. I am stunned, in a happy happy way.
Bruce, your link is broken but you can see this on the JPL front page.
I was wondering when Phoenix would show up in this thread.
Whoops, thanks.
I’ve been friends with Phoenix Mission Leader Peter Smith for just over 25 years now. At times like these we don’t see much of him but giant kudos, congratulations and warm regards go out to him and his entire crew for another splendid, awe-inspiring job. Bravo Space Cadets!
“‘Unlike Christianity, of course,’ he said sardonically.”
Phil, do you really want to start a religion flame war?
Is that what I was doing? It’s not possible that I simply was making an observation about how people tend to view religions that they do not themselves practice, albeit in a perhaps sarcastic manner?
If it’s all the same to you, I’d rather you not vet my comments, Gary. If and when I ever want to start a flame war, both you and the recipient of the flame will be well aware.
But speaking as someone with no shred of Christianity . . . I have no problem whatever saying that I think it’s an objectively fair statement to say that a number of flavors of Christianity . . have produced at various times, “solid theological content and a [fairly] rigorously worked out system of ethics.”
How does one tell if one has encountered “solid theological content” or not? I mean, it’s all pretty much just made up, no?
How does one tell if one has encountered “solid theological content” or not? I mean, it’s all pretty much just made up, no?
Well, speaking as an ex-Christian myself, I think there’s something “solid” there, which perhaps might be better labeled, in the way of the sciences, “robust.” As I understand it, that term refers to a theory or methodology that works pretty well even when the data fit is far from perfect.
What I see is that over a long period of time a large number of people have worked out (various) systems of interpretation that (1) are internally consistent, and yet (2) can be adapted, as needed, into a variant system without the whole religion collapsing.
The same could be said, of course, for Buddhism, Hinduism, and Islam: “robust” religions with theologies that have evolved over many generations, often through heated debate, and have survived and adapted. They don’t fall apart when the founder/leader(s) are gone; they are not vulnerable to simple refutation through unforeseen contradiction.
And within such systems, it is possible to perceive EVERYTHING as making sense, because theologians have pretty much covered every base, at least to the satisfaction of believers.
None of this has anything to do with whether any of these religions is actually true or not, of course. But they do distinguish the major “world religions” from other less-developed belief systems (which in turn may or may not be true).
I’d rather live in a world of people completely confused about their doctrines but totally reliable in their practical ethics – their kindness, compassion, generosity, cooperation, and so on – than in a world of people with completely correct belief and no practical charity.
I’m with you.
Lately, my wife and I attend a church that has no formal creed. Instead, there is a covenant, binding the members to God and in mutual responsibility to each other.
Doctrinal details are for each person to work out for themselves, according to their understanding of things.
We like it there.
My helpful tip for the day: best not to confuse the two.
Dude, two words: spud gun.
Thoughts and prayers for those fighting and dying in this idiotic war.
Amen.
Janie, I’ll keep my antennae out for the zing.
Thanks –
…and my son and I have tickets to tonight’s Phillies game:)
So, btfb, did you stick around for all 20 runs last night? (if you’re still paying attention to this thread)
OK, I am reminded of a joke.
Theologian (to philosopher): You philosophers are searching in a dark cellar at midnight in a coal scuttle for a black cat that doesn’t exist.
Philosopher: You theologians find it.
Count me in for ObWiCon — I live in California but I’d love to meet you all and with enough advance notice I probably can make it.
Woohoo! I’m going to be in the room for the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee meeting Saturday, along with quite a few other DC for Democracy folks. We’ll try to avoid fistfights.
hairshirthedonist: for some reason (hyperlexia?), my brain always reads your ObWi name as “Hair Shirt The Dentist.”
Just thought you should know. 😉
“If it’s all the same to you, I’d rather you not vet my comments, Gary.”
I’m quite certain I have no such capacity. Is it okay with you if I occasionally comment on your comments, which is what I thought I was doing?
“Is that what I was doing?”
Potentially. Intent certainly has nothing to do with it. But with luck it’s nipped in the bud.
“How does one tell if one has encountered ‘solid theological content’ or not?”
It’s a matter of opinion, obviously, but me, I’d pretty much say that something that strikes me as powerfully reasoned and internally consistent, and with thoughts worth thinking about, is fairly describable that way, and not so much if otherwise.
“I mean, it’s all pretty much just made up, no?”
All thought is, isn’t it? How does philosophizing in a religious tradition differ from most philosophizing, and thinking, in regard to whether it’s “all pretty much just made up,” would you say? Is “it’s all just thoughts/pretty much just made up” something that you think is inherently negative, or a criticism?
dr ngo: “As I understand it, that term refers to a theory or methodology that works pretty well even when the data fit is far from perfect.”
Yes. And there’s also elegance as a consideration, whether in science, or any other set of concepts.
“Dude, two words: spud gun.”
Excellent point. Or not so pointy.
“Count me in for ObWiCon — I live in California but I’d love to meet you all and with enough advance notice I probably can make it.”
I’d start to take it seriously if we get two things: a) at least one of the blog-owners lending approval; and b) at least 15 people stating a clear, though uncommitted, intention that they would be highly likely to show up.
On further thinking, though, while I suggested the DC/Baltimore/Maryland/Virginia area as a site as reasonably central to most folks as anywhere in the U.S. (and possible future such gatherings can, of course, be organized in future, wherever), and I still think that makes sense, someone within convenient range of wherever we’d pick would be required to actually look at whatever site we’d want to use, be it a motel, tiny bit of a hotel, or what have you, and so if I’m going to take on that task, which I’d be happy to do, assuming my life seems sufficiently stable to allow for me to spend energy on this come fall/winter, either I’d be volunteering to do it in the Raleigh/Chapel Hill/Durham triangle area, or needing to coordinate with someone in said or another area who would otherwise need to eyeball the location and approve it, and so on. So perhaps down here further south might work better.
But let’s not get horses out ahead of carts.
And now that I think of it, I’m thinking that waiting until after Election Day is probably wise, so as to not have to spend much energy on this before that day, and to everyone, or at least me, will have as much possible time and energy to spare for use in election campaigning.
But we would’t want to get too close to Christmas, either, and conflict with that. So maybe either some time in November or the first week of December, or maybe after New Year’s, before the end of March?
I’m just tossing ideas out for discussion, and to be shot down.
Again, it doesn’t seem to me to be particularly appropriate to go too far with such an idea without some at least tacit approval, if not enthusiasm, expressed by at least one of the blog-owners/posters of ObWi. The support of at least one in terms of promoting here would be, of course, a necessity. But I don’t see that any further work by any of them would be required; just being willing to make an occasional post about it, and encourage people to come out for it.
We could maybe have a couple of day outing options for something fun/interesting to do on one or two days, and a party on one or two evenings in a hotel suite, is more or less what I’m thinking. Nothing much more elaborate, though whatever is suggested should be given all the consideration it deserves.
If there are other events it might make sense to make an ObWiCon an adjunct to, suggestions also welcome. (A philospher’s convention? A lawyer’s conference? A clown college? A fair? An entertainment premiere/event? Too bad I don’t live in NYC any more….)
“Woohoo! I’m going to be in the room for the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee meeting Saturday, along with quite a few other DC for Democracy folks.”
I greatly look forward to your write-up!
The Comicon!
(The fact that it is in my home city certainly did nothing to influence my decision.) 😉
Sebastian, when Comicon goes on, as you know, no hotel rooms can be had for something like a hundred miles around or more.
Other events to be avoided for use as add-ons to: the Republican National Convention, the Democratic National Convention, the Super Bowl, similarly popular sports events, similarly popular events in general, and anything that makes hotel/motel facilities unavailable or highly expensive on a given weekend or week.
And, personally, I want to avoid hot weather, because I can’t stand hot weather.
Now, if you wanted to talk about doing an ObWiCon as an addendum to a reasonably sized comics or sf or somesuch con, that would be perfectly sensible.
In that event, one idea I’d consider would be that there’s no way I’d be ready for this year’s Readercon, but 2009 might work for me, at least. Or perhaps Wiscon, 2009.
No, I’m not planning on going back to Denver any time soon.
But keep those cards and suggestions coming, folks!
And does this mean the idea of such an event meets with your approval, Sebastian? Would you be up for making occasional posts about it here if it seemed like there were enough folks interested, and I started running with the ball? (In which case, hey, other volunteers to help eagerly eagerly solicited!)
hairshirthedonist: for some reason (hyperlexia?), my brain always reads your ObWi name as “Hair Shirt The Dentist.”
Just thought you should know. 😉
Thanks, man. [In case you’re female or a small child of either (sorry, I mean “any,” given some recent threads) gender, xanax, please note that I refer to anyone as “man” in instances such as this.]
I’ve been eating that stuff for years, and I still don’t know what the hell it’s called. It’s used rather extensively in noodle soups, if memory serves.
We try to make a point of acquiring some around hot pot season, which is (here, anyway) generally sometime around Chinese New Year. There’s also a kind of spinach that comes from that part of the world that’s unusually colored, in addition to teh tastiness.
As with most Chinese cooking, though, the secret is in the additives. You can collect all the fresh stuff you please, but you’re not going to get anywhere near that wonderful taste you recall without the proper sauce, or splash of rice wine. What those sauces are made of, I have no idea, and I think in this case ignorance is probably bliss.
Still, it’s helpful to know what goes best with what else. My wife took a Chinese cooking course from a nice lady who grew up in Hong Kong, and some of the recipes are just out of this world. My wife does those best; I’m no slouch in the kitchen, but where it comes to Chinese food, I’ve learned to just shut up and prep.
Don’t worry about the heat, Gary. It is never really hot in San Diego. (Ok, never is a strong word. It breaks 80 for a couple of weeks and 85 maybe 15 days a year.)
I’m definitely interested in meeting y’all, but preferably not on a major holiday weekend. I’m almost always at a volleyball tournament during those.
Slart, after some googling I’m pretty sure it is young Chinese broccoli, aka baby kai-lan. Definitely not broccolini, which seems to have bigger flowers and smaller leaves.
My main purpose was to track down Sichuan broad bean paste with chili. I’ll see later today how that works for mapo tofu. I did get some rice wine as well, and “Sichuan preserved vegetable”, and various other random things. It would have been a good place to buy Sichuan peppercorns, except that I’d already bought those a few weeks back for a lot more money at Williams-Sonoma, the only place I could find them.
Best open thread ObWi’s had in ages. 🙂
hairshirthedonist (10:40 am/5-27-08)
Thanks for letting me know the Phils hit the 20-run mark. The way they were going — and the way the Rockies were pitching — I thought they might.
Your post is the first I’ve heard of the 20-run final. Just not as good as I used to be about making a point to tuning in SportsCenter, or checking the local stations.
My son and I left when the Phillies were leading 16-4 at the end of seven, I believe, and that was good enough for us. We were happy.
Don’t know if I will be posting much today. I am tired, just tired, tired of work, tired of not being able to pay bills, tired from everything.
Tired of my asshole boss (probably shouldn’t be writing that at work, but f— it, I’m leaving in a few minutes: playing the sick card).
Tired of not being able to give my wife everything she wants/deserves/needs/I don’t know.
Tired of wondering when the next bill will come in and where in the hell I will get the money to pay for it.
Tired of working, working, working, and all the asshole, demaning customers that come through these doors. Where did all the regular, decent, not demeaning, not demanding people go?
Tired.
I’d be up for a meeting. Baltimore/DC are of course best for me, but other places are possible.
hairshirthedonist: for some reason (hyperlexia?), my brain always reads your ObWi name as “Hair Shirt The Dentist.”
I always keep thinking: “What the heck is a donist?”
My favorite one, though, is a product called “therapist helper”. Their web-site is http://www.therapisthelper.com.
And for donists everywhere, there is this list.
I’d certainly have an interest in meeting people.
Petroleum =/= energy.
We don’t get most of our energy from petroleum. We get most of our energy from coal. We are not short of coal. There’s enough coal in Wyoming alone to supply the US at current levels of consumption for about 1000 years.
You can do everything with coal that you can do with petroleum; some applications just cost a bit more, while some are cheaper. When you’re burning it to boil water coal is cheaper.
Turning coal into liquid fuels is a bit more expensive.
It works out to around $50-$70 per barrel. Costs for oil shale, tar sands and other “unconventional” sources (eg, Orinoco ultra-heavy crude) are in a similar range.
These substitutes haven’t been used before because the price of petroleum hasn’t been consistently over $60 or so, in 2008 dollars. Up until recently, it was usually less than $15 a barrel.
At those levels, doing the necessary infrastructure and R&D didn’t make sense.
When oil did get over that crucial $50 level (where alternates became competitive), the Saudis turned on the tap to wipe out the investments of those who started tapping those sources.
Once bitten, twice shy; people stopped doing it.
The Saudis can’t do that any more since they’re no longer a swing producer, so multi megabillions are going into substitutes.
This will reduce the costs of these alternatives, as R&D and economies of scale kick in.
Eventually they will be cheaper than petroleum was in the first place — that’s the reason virtually all “natural resources” get cheaper over time, regardless of consumption.
In other words, high prices produce low prices, and scarcity produces abundance, provided your friendly government doesn’t screw things up.
Saying “it’ll be different this time” is sort of unconvincing. Why should it be?
That’s how market economics works, in a culture which has the scientific method.
And it’s why “static” ecological-type analysis is always wrong when applied to such human societies, as was embarassingly proven by the Club of Rome stuff in the 1970’s. If the Mouse Eating Fox is faced with a mouse population crash, it just dies.
We don’t do that.
When the price of X rises, people move resources in accordance with market pricing signals to:
a) develop ways to find and access more of X;
b) find ways to get more output per unit of X;
c) find substitutes for X
And the substitutes for X eventually become cheaper and better than X was (as coal became cheapter than charcoal).
Example of a): Brazil just discovered an ultra-deep offshore oilfield which will turn Brazil from a major importer to a major exporter. This field couldn’t even have been detected 10 years ago, much less accessed.
Example of b): we currently need only about 50% as much petroleum to produce a unit of GDP output as we did in 1970. There is no reason to believe this trend won’t continue.
For one small example of how this works, the Chevy Volt plug-in hybrid starts production next year, and uses no particularly hard technology; 40-mile range electric cars aren’t exactly rocket science, and neither are small gasoline generator sets.
The Volt runs on battery power until it reaches 40 miles, and then switches to the IC-engine/generator. Since the median daily trip for an American automobile is about 33 miles, it gets about 150-250 mpg _of petroleum_. If I had one, I’d have to buy about 7 tanks of gas a year.
The rest of its energy needs come from conventional grid electricity, which is mostly generated by coal or nuclear energy, and costs the equivalent of gas at $0.80 per gallon.
Furthermore, plug-ins could replace 70% of the current car-and-light-truck fleet without the need for any new generating capacity or distribution systems, simply by using off-peak hours for recharging.
That would -reduce- the cost of electricity, by increasing the capital intensity of generating plant. It would also have a bunch of spinoffs — reduced pollution, for example, because of the massive thermal efficiency advantages of big central generating plants over many small IC engines.
Look, fellahs, problems with oil are not an existential crisis. They are not the Vanishing of the Mouse Supply.
They’re just _engineering_ problems. And engineering problems are _inherently_ solvable.
It’s _political_ problems that are sticky.
I’ve seen this “DOOM IS UPON US” syndrome before; I knew plenty of survivalists back in the 70’s and 80’s.
It’s always a crock. The sky never falls. Some people _wish_ the sky would fall, because they think it would be cool.
In books, maybe.