110 thoughts on “Debate Open Thread”

  4. I am unsure if it is appropriate to suggest this here, but I set up a quick, free ObiWi Chat Room, if anyone is interested.
    No personal info is needed, everyone here is welcome. I am in no way connected to the site providing this service.
    If this is not ok, hilzoy, my apologies, and please delete this post.

  5. Do we have to have the same tax conversation at every debate? I mean, adding in Joe Wurtzelburger was a new touch, I guess, but we need some new material.

  11. Chat room won’t let me post, Andrew, so I’m staying here.
    Schieffer of course is yet another Very Serious Moderator saying that we have to cut government spending in the middle of a depression.

  17. KC is exactly right about McCain’s zombie Ireland lie. When McCain raised it in a previous debate, Obama skewered it, as did the various factchecking organizations. Clearly McCain didn’t care. P.S. Earmarks and overhead projectors, my friends!

  22. @ david kilmer
    A re-run wouldn’t be the worst outcome: McCain still looks like Johnny Rictus spouting boilerplate: Obama still looks “Presidential” sputinh HIS boilerplate.
    I’ll take it.

  28. McCain should consider whether when John Lewis, whom he supposedly admires, says he’s a disgrace it means there’s something wrong with McCain himself, not with Lewis.

  30. Is anyone in America actually buying this ridiculous excuse that Obama forced McCain to go all smears all the time by not agreeing to endless town halls?

  38. Hmm, maybe Schieffer isn’t completely on the tire swing after all. He asks why each running mate would be a good president. No doubt McCain will have some BS, but no one will actually believe it.

  55. I can’t be certain about it until there’s a transcript, but it seems like, with Schieffer’s help by shifting to new topics, McCain is getting the last word on almost every exchange (like most of his words, usually an attack, and one whose veracity I’d challenge), even though they’re alternating for who gets the first word on each exchange.

  57. It’s true, Obama did not mention the name. I was just trying to extend the false equivalency between the campaigns I guess. (Our household just stopped watching the debate in favor of Project Runway so all my debate is going to be second-hand now.)

  59. McCain must be awfully certain that this Joe guy (1) LOVES McCain; (2) is telegenic; and (3) will stand up to scrutiny.

  72. That link should read, “Then again, I think Bob is voting for Obama”.
    Apologies for the multi-post, wanted to fix that quickly.

  73. Pooh, I like his forcing the topics, but see my above comment on his giving McCain the last word time and time again (pending the transcript).

  76. Well, except for the always-giving-McCain-the-last-word thing, Pooh.
    I’m including that in my calculations. If McCain had made any use of his last mover advantage, I might feel differently, but all he’s done is throw in non-sequitorish and rather opaque attacks.

  80. My gf says that CNN’s snap polls are heavily favoring McCain? And that Democratic responses are dropping whenever Obama speaks?

  84. How many times did McCain misspeak or forget tonight? I thought it was huge. Couldn’t remember Michelle’s name, said Palin knows about autism, said Obama voted against Justice Breyer???? I think there were more but that is what I can remember.
    And then being dismissive not just of women’s health issues with abortion, but ALSO of the woman who found out too late she was underpaid. I think he said something like “you could go back 20 or 30 years, it would be a trial lawyer’s dream”. Not nearly as much sympathy for the underpaid woman as for good old Joe the plumber.

  85. Is there a tape of the women’s health exchange anywhere? I missed that but would like to see it. There’s a cryptic note at TPM that says “we’re pulling the video” — does that mean they had it up but are taking it down? Why?

  87. What’s McCain’s fetish with Colombia? Does his campaign treasurer lobby for it, or something?
    Since when did little Trig Palin become autistic? Trisomy-21 (aka Down’s) is a whole different thing from autism.
    If Joe the Plumber has a Sched_C profit of $250,001 from that small business of his, then he goddam well should pay 39 cents out of that last dollar — just exactly like a guy who draws a $250,001 salary. (Yes, I know: the top tax bracket doesn’t actually kick in until $315K or something. But you get my point.) As a sole prop, I would be ecstatic to make that 250,001st dollar, no matter what the tax rate on it is. Joe would be, too. Whoever McCain is trying to fool with this particular line of BS about personal income tax rates stifling small business, I bet Joe the Plumber is too smart to fall for it.
    If “qualifications” is all McCain requires of SCOTUS appointees, does that mean he’d consider nominating Lawrence Tribe?
    –TP

  91. I heard the debate on radio, while working late. Seeing the difference between audio and A-V has been fascinating for the first three debates, I will do for the last one later tonight.
    MSNBC has an online poll showing that Obama is seen the winner 7-to-1. The poll at FoxNews.com is showing Obama a 2-to-1 winner.

  92. Weird, once again, that the undecideds go so heavily for Obama as the winner of the debate when even many of the liberal pundits see it as a tie, noting as a caveat that Obama only really needed a tie.
    53-22 isn’t a tie, its a landslide.
    What do the undecideds see that the partisans don’t?

  93. McCain is “proud” of the people screaming “Kill him!” and “Terrorist!”
    Posted by: KCinDC | October 15, 2008 at 09:34 PM
    Yes: another own-goal for Team McCain: sounds nice in a debate context, but probably won’t play so well in the next week or so when juxtaposed (by some “civic-minded” 527, no doubt) with a photo of Bubba Joe Klanboy at a Sarah Palin rally with his beer gut spilling out from a Confederate-flag t-shirt and holding a sign saying “Lynch Obama” (or, more likely, “Linch”). Proud – you betcha!

  95. What do the undecideds see that the partisans don’t?
    The liberal pundits are policy wonks, and the debate format gives little opportunity for either candidate to make an organized presentation of their policy proposals. The undecideds, OTOH, are probably seeing one candidate who is calm, pleasant, and consistent about whose side he’s on, versus the other candidate who seems more and more like your erratic great uncle John, who gets seriously on your nerves when you have to listen to him for 90 minutes.
    I have been saying for some time that if the Republicans could make the election be about personalities, McCain wins narrowly. I think the debates have put Obama ahead on the personality side as well, because McCain has come off far worse when it’s an extended exposure than he does in his 60-second carefully assembled ads.

  96. It’s not that surprising that McCain thinks of someone making $250,000 and someone making $40,000 as being in the same situation. To someone like McCain, who pays about as much for servants as the two of them make combined, and whose wife wears earrings that cost as much as their combined yearly salaries, the difference between them is indeed insignificant.


  100. 53-22 isn’t a tie, its a landslide.
    What do the undecideds see that the partisans don’t?

    I’d like to know that too.
    Is it just that the partisans want to see metaphorical blood in the water, whereas the undecideds are truly evaluating who they want to be President, and Obama is just better – something we can’t really see any more with neutral eyes, as if we are hankering for a banana split with nuts and whipped cream and a cherry on top (and anything less is a disappointment because we’ve become so jaded) whereas the undecideds are at the “mmmm – ice cream! good!” stage that we passed a long time ago.
    Is it that simple?
    Or is it that the undecideds actually decided in favor of Obama sometime back, and have just been looking for a convenient excuse to admit to themselves that they’ve made up their minds? Were they not really all that undecided to begin with?

  101. Obama just said (22 minutes in, my watching the delayed version) that he gives McCain credit for opposing torture, rather than hitting him for caving on it. šŸ™


  102. Obama just said (22 minutes in, my watching the delayed version) that he gives McCain credit for opposing torture, rather than hitting him for caving on it. šŸ™

    I wonder if Obama is ceding whatever temporary advantage that might provide (if any?) in the current electoral contest in order to lock McCain down as a potential ally (or neutralize him as an adversary) on this issue after the election. If in 2009 war crimes investigations become a hot issue, it will be harder for McCain to backtrack in support of the Bush admin. after receiving and accepting praise during the 2008 campaign as a torture opponent, undeserved though the latter may be.
    It will also help if the current election campaign establishes a consensus bipartisan position on torture (“of course it is bad – how could anyone think otherwise”), fictitous though that may be, compared with the opposite situation where the torture issue is politicized further as a result of this Presidential election campaign. In other words there really shouldn’t be any debate on this issue – the no torture position should be the automatic default position for any sane and moral person, and by praising McCain Obama is co-opting him to push things in that direction.

  103. “I wonder if Obama is ceding whatever temporary advantage that might provide (if any?) in the current electoral contest in order to lock McCain down as a potential ally (or neutralize him as an adversary) on this issue after the election.”
    Yes. As well, I don’t think hitting him on it would be particularly effective, let alone a winning issue, alas. I think it’s far and away the case that most people who really care already know, and if they don’t know, more than not they won’t care.
    And it’s too easy to get sidetracked into debate over being “soft on terrorists,” again alas.
    That was my heart speaking, rather than my calculation.

  104. At an hour and 6 minutes or so in, McCain is speaking up for voting for SCOTUS justices on qualifications, not ideology. I look forward to his support of President Obama’s judicial nominations.

  107. RE the question on what it is undecideds see, James Fallows has a good post up on his blog at the Atlantic (I’d link, but I’ve had problems doing html by phone at ObWi before, and when I typed in a URL without html the filter snagged the comment).

  108. I give up – Larison wins teh internetz
    This latest post from Larison is full of win. I laughed so hard I cried. The next time somebody claims there’s no such thing as conservative humor, point them to this.


    McCain: People are angry.Ā  There is excess.Ā  People are angry.Ā  McCain targets mortgage lenders, but wants toĀ keep home ownershipĀ high.Ā  Repeats his crazy mortgage bailout plan.Ā  Pretends that his plan ā€œputs homeowners first.ā€Ā  Obama: This is worst crisis since 1380, and I know many of us still remember that oneā€¦

    …


    McCain: Why increase taxes?Ā  Why would you do that?Ā  Joe the Plumber isnā€™t happy with that.Ā  Apparently Joe the Plumber has replaced Joe Sixpack as theĀ embodiment of Middle America.Ā  Obama says heĀ would prefer to be an anarcho-capitalist, but circumstances donā€™t allow it.

    …


    Did McCain just play the Hoover card on Obama?Ā  Thatā€™s some kind of audacity.
    Joe the Plumber againā€“drink!
    The unanswered question of the campaign: ā€œWho is the real Joe the Plumber?ā€
    I take it that McCain doesnā€™t want to spread the wealth.Ā  HeĀ really dislikes that phrase.Ā  I guess that means he wants to lump the wealth all together.Ā  Presumably it will all be under Henry Paulsonā€™s control.
    McCain: No litmus tests, but Roe is bad and Iā€™m a federalist.Ā  Justices should beĀ chosen based on their qualifications, unlike Vice Presidents.Ā  Did he just say that Obama voted against confirming Breyer?Ā  Obama canĀ also time travel?Ā  He is impressive.

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