by publius
The Post’s article today on the Employee Free Choice Act (EFCA) is an example of a new pet peeve of mine — namely, the failure to fairly explain the reasons why the EFCA is so essential. The article is nominally about the looming legislative battle. But the article — unwittingly — presents a very pro-business perspective by glossing over the elections point.
As for the EFCA and elections — here’s the nickel version. To organize, unions today generally must petition for, and win, an election. Under the EFCA, an employer would also be required to recognize a union if a majority of workers signed a card indicating support. The big critique of the EFCA, of course, is that it would bypass or undermine secret ballot elections — and admittedly, that doesn’t sound good in the abstract.
But the real story is much, much different. The current “election” system is an absolute fraud. It’s an employer-dominated affair, and the elections resemble those found in a banana republic. Imagine, for instance, a Senate race (let’s say Minnesota) where only Al Franken was allowed to campaign, and where Franken could randomly fire Coleman’s campaign managers. Not much of a fair campaign, right?
Well, that’s how it works in today’s workplace. Elections are utterly unfair. To begin, employers routinely fire union organizers who push for an election. Understandably, that gets people’s attention. But there are a million other forms of pressure — employers can stretch out the actual election for weeks and months. During this time, they can conduct a totally one-sided campaign where they pressure employees. For instance, employees are often required to sit through business-sponsored propaganda meetings, where the employer threatens to relocate or close the company (or even call immigration services). Employees also endure one-on-one coercion from individual supervisors. (Alleged union coercion is basically a fantasy as well given the incentives unions have to remain in employees’ good graces).
In short, the current election system is a scam. If it weren’t, then maybe some of these “undemocratic” criticisms would have some weight. But you’ll be shocked to know (considering the sources) that these criticisms are essentially done in bad faith with the hopes you don’t know the facts.
And that brings me back to the Post. It’s a he said/she said template — that’s life. But it’s a really crappy one. The Post dutifully reports the criticism of businesses in detail — i.e., undemocratic, will force people to join unions. Here, by contrast, is the grand total of what the Post writes about the elections from labor’s perspective (and it comes much later in the article):
Labor organizers say the rules allow companies to pressure workers through campaigns that often include closed-door meetings.
That’s it. (on the elections point anyway, which is the primary justification for the bill). The press (and liberal bloggers like me) have been bad on getting the real facts out there. But it’s time to push back on this — particularly the elections point. People can disagree about unions, but we should at least make sure people understand the true reason for the bill.
This is classic fallacy argumentation. The existence of an alleged problem (in this case unfair elections) does not suggest that the proposed solution is a good one.
If Democrats have a problem with the election procedure, you control Congress and the Presidency so fix it. Taking away the secret ballot is not fixing it, it is taking away a very important protection. There is a reason elections tend to be secret ballot, and if you can’t articulate reasons to get rid of it *that are pertinent TO SECRET BALLOT* you shouldn’t be getting rid of it.
You can’t complain that a Bush controlled NLRB won’t enforce the rules anymore (the previous justification for taking away the secret ballot).
You can make all sorts of changes in the labor rules that aren’t naked power grabs that violate the basic way elections work. Try those. Hell, THINK about those.
the article — unwittingly — presents a very pro-business perspective by glossing over the elections point.
Nothing unwitting about it at all. The Washington Post has been hostile to unions across the board for decades — at the management level in relationto the paper’s own unions, on the editorial page, and in the news coverage.
I remember trying to get coverage for a labor event in DC back in the early 1980s; the reporters assigned to the labor beat were unbelievably cynical and dismissive of any kind of activism, and bought completely into corporate arguments on the issues concerned.
A commenter at Digby’s blog made the excellent suggestion that EFCA supporters refer to current union elections as what they are: company elections. EFCA provides for secret-ballot elections if 30% of the workers choose it. So EFCA supports worker choice; in the status quo, everything is up to the companies.
Anti-EFCA lobbying is designed to prevent unionization; the shrieking about secret ballots is designed to obscure the actual situation of company harassment, threats, and firings of workers with phantoms of worker-on-worker intimidation.
The existence of an alleged problem
Uh, “alleged”? You’re not in court. The obstacles that employers place in the way of employees from forming unions to represent them as a group to their employers, are quite thoroughly documented. Have been for over a century.
The benefits of unionization for employees are clear and well-documented. The notion that unions will somehow try to strong-arm employees is one of the classic conservative memes against unions: the idea that working people can’t trust each other, they can only trust their employers, is used to manipulate employees in all sorts of ways.
Really, Sebastian, if you want to write something on how Unions Is Teh Bad, why don’t you?
Sebastian: Ontario has had card check for 60 years. If card check actually resulted in intimidation of workers who don’t sign cards by pro-union workers or union reps, there’d be some evidence of it there.
If you can’t provide any, then you’ll have to retreat to the heart of your actual position: against unionization generally.
Card check, especially with EFCA’s 30% provisions for worker election, does indeed solve the problems with today’s company elections.
I say ‘alleged’ because unions allege it every single time they have an unsuccessful drive, both when the allegation is appropriate and when it is not.
And again, the existence of a problem is not an argument for any old proposal. You didn’t accept that with 9/11 and security theater, or ‘increased security’ and wiretapping and you shouldn’t accept it now.
Card check attacks the wrong person’s rights in search of the remedy. It says that the problem is that COMPANIES abuse the union election process THEREFORE we will take away the WORKER’S normal election rights.
That makes no sense.
I say ‘alleged’ because unions allege it every single time they have an unsuccessful drive, both when the allegation is appropriate and when it is not.
When is it ever appropriate for employers to intimidate their employees into giving up their right to form a union? Do tell.
And again, the existence of a problem is not an argument for any old proposal.
I doubt if employers would care for any proposal that was effective in having employees able to form a union against the wishes of their employer.
It says that the problem is that COMPANIES abuse the union election process THEREFORE we will take away the WORKER’S normal election rights.
Well, fine, Sebastian. How do you propose to have the secret ballot be workable in an immediate way so that employers can’t stop employees from joining a union and forcing their employer to recognize it?
BTW, while we are talking about facts:
Zogby International Survey Results
Question 12: Do you believe workers should have the right or should not have the right to vote on whether they wish to belong to a union? Yes 84%
Question 13: I’m going to describe two ways that workers might be asked to decide if they want to become part of a union and ask you which of the two ways is most fair. In the first way, a union organizer would ask workers to sign their name on a card if they wanted to be part of a union. The worker would sign his or her name on the card if he or she wanted a union, or the worker would tell the union organizer he or she would not sign the card if he or she did not want a union. In the second way, the government would hold an election in the workplace where every worker would get to vote by secret ballot whether he or she wanted a union. Which way is more fair?
53% said more fair.
14. Currently, the government is responsible for holding secret-ballot elections for workers who are deciding whether to form a union, and for making sure workers can cast their votes in a fair and impartial manner. Do you agree or disagree that the current secret-ballot process is fair?
71% said Agree
15. Do you agree or disagree that stronger laws are needed to protect the existing secret-ballot election process and to make sure workers can make their decisions about union membership in private, without the union, their employer or anyone else knowing how they vote?
63% Agree
17. Should Congress keep the existing secret-ballot election process for union membership, or should Congress replace it with another process that is less private?
78% said keep the existing secret-ballot.
Please note that this is a survey of people who are *already in unions*.
“Well, fine, Sebastian. How do you propose to have the secret ballot be workable in an immediate way so that employers can’t stop employees from joining a union and forcing their employer to recognize it?”
Shorten the election procedure to something very manageable (say 2 weeks) after some percentage of the workers express an interest through whatever legitimate channels.
More vigorously prosecute with CRIMINAL penalties actual cases of punitive firing or illegal tampering with the election.
Essentially you can do all sorts of things to deal with THE COMPANY which don’t involve attacking the rights of THE WORKERS. You’d think a union could understand that distinction. The fact that they don’t is suggestive…
Imagine, for instance, a Senate race (let’s say Minnesota) where only Al Franken was allowed to campaign, and where Franken could randomly fire Coleman’s campaign managers. Not much of a fair campaign, right?
How about we be clear about what is already a violation of law. You make it sound like the random firing of an employee exercising his right to organize is protected under current law.
The benefits of unionization for employees are clear and well-documented. The notion that unions will somehow try to strong-arm employees is one of the classic conservative memes against unions:
No doubt that there abuses on both sides. But do you really think that unions DON’T pressure holdouts? What was it the UAW did in the Freightliner case a few years back, post the name of the anti-union employee along with his telephone number and address and a map to his house? And that this won’t increase when they know exactly who is against unionization?
It seems to me one of the big pushes for changes is the simple fact that unionization is down so much in the U.S. The blame goes on the current process rather than other factors which seem to be in play. Frex, the gov’t over the past many years has legislated in areas that unions traditionally trump as one of the benefits of unionizing (labor safety standards, health care reform, medical leave, etc.). If universal health care comes in, there will be another thing that unions won’t be able to use to sell their services.
And I don’t see how in the world anyone could believe that card check is going to reflect worker’s attitudes towards unionization in any meaningful way. Then again, maybe we could let the company card check for non-unionization at the same time and have the non-unionization provision last for a minimum two years . . .
seb – in the abstract, all that sounds fine. but you’re not taking any “right” away, you’re just letting the union decide.
more precisely, unions currently can organize by either election or card check. however, employers only have to recognize elections. if employees want elections, they can still have them. the point though is that EFCA gives EMPLOYEES rather than EMPLOYERS the final decision on how procedurally a union should be recognized. there’s no ‘taking away” a right.
now, if elections would start 2 days after a petition and the employer had to be silent, then fine. but employer-run elections are just never going to work.
and there is basically no evidence of union coercion, for several reasons. most obviously, unions don’t control people’s paycheck and working conditions (employers do). also, the union has an incentive to keep people happy – you can disband a union in a year.
like i said, you may like or dislike unions. but the election process is a complete sham — and it probably can’t be reformed.
What was it the UAW did in the Freightliner case a few years back, post the name of the anti-union employee along with his telephone number and address and a map to his house?
Cite?
And that this won’t increase when they know exactly who is against unionization?
If a union intimidates employees who refuse to join the union, that is illegal, bc. It’s already illegal. Actual, documented cases of illegal intimidation can actually have something done about them.
Employers pretending a fake concern for employees when (and only when) they don’t join the union, when their not joining the union primarily benefits their employers, is old hat.
This is an odd way to view it.
I would think the appropriate way to look at it is that workers get MORE rights, namely the right to form a union with majority sign up.
Alleged union coercion is basically a fantasy as well given the incentives unions have to remain in employees’ good graces
That has not been my experience. I’ve experience union coercion in the job interview process; forget about taking the job and working there… My wife also routinely dealt with union coercion when she worked as a non-union employee at colleges that had a union. It is certainly no fantasy. If you want to make the case that there are more documented incidents of employer coercion than union coercion I’m open to that (but you’d also have to address the issue that it is far more unlikely for employees to report coercion by co-workers), but “basically a fantasy” is not going to sell.
If the majority of employees really want a union I have no problem with that, so long as a) I don’t lose the secret ballot process; b) I don’t have to be one of the 30% to come forward publicly or have to deal with organizing 30% to come forward to request a secret ballot to decertify the union; c) I’m not forced to join the union based on 51% signing the card. “Free Choice” my behind.
If employer coercion is a problem then deal with that. You want to strengthen the penalties for employer coercion? You have my support. Just don’t try to force a union down my throat. This is nothing more than Democrats paying back the unions for millions and millions of dollars of support. Union membership has drastically declined. Instead of addressing reasons why that might be, it’s easier to use what union dues you have left to support Democrats who will in turn advance legislation to make it easier to force unions on employees.
And it doesn’t seem to be about the employees, given this poll of (then) current union members:
-84% believe workers should have the right to vote on whether they wish to belong to a union.
-53% believe the secret ballot is fairer than card check.
-71% believe that the current secret ballot process is fair.
-78% think Congress should keep the current secret ballot process.
-51% believe at least two thirds of the workers should be required to vote for a union before the union represents all workers.
-66% think it should be illegal for a union and a company to agree in advance to bypass the secret-ballot union election when organizing a workplace.
-63% believe it is unfair to fire a worker who declines to pay dues to, or support, a union.
-34% believe their union spends too much on politics and electing candidates.
This is not about poor employees whose lot in life would be so much better if only the man wasn’t keeping them from organizing. This is a straight up quid pro quo between union leadership and the Democratic Party. More union members equal more union dues (and happy leadership) equal more support for Democrats.
Link (PDF)
(Yes, I know, attack The Mackinac Center for Public Policy as a far right group. Take it up with Zogby – if you want to discredit these numbers then discredit the polling methodology or at least show me conflicting polls by a reputable pollster.)
For once in my life I agree with George McGovern (that champion of big business):
To my friends supporting EFCA I say this: We cannot be a party that strips working Americans of the right to a secret-ballot election. We are the party that has always defended the rights of the working class. To fail to ensure the right to vote free of intimidation and coercion from all sides would be a betrayal of what we have always championed.
Some of the most respected Democratic members of Congress — including Reps. Marcy Kaptur of Ohio, George Miller and Pete Stark of California, and Barney Frank of Massachusetts — have advised that workers in developing countries such as Mexico insist on the secret ballot when voting as to whether or not their workplaces should have a union. We should have no less for employees in our country.
It seems to me one of the big pushes for changes is the simple fact that unionization is down so much in the U.S.
The big push for change comes from the fact that working people haven’t received any of the increase in wealth that the economy has generated for the last generation.
Unions are a blunt instrument, but you work with what’s available to you.
It’s not hard to imagine a card-check model being abused. Unfortunately, the situation as it stands is also subject to abuse.
Could we enforce the existing laws more strictly? I guess so. But we don’t.
I appreciate the point Sebastian (and others) make, but in this situation appeals to fairness and preserving democratic goodness seem kind of weak.
Labor has been getting kicked in the nuts for a generation or more, and I’m not sure it’s because their reason for being has been rendered obsolete by worker-friendly legislation.
Want things to be fair? Share the wealth.
Want things to be democratic? Give labor a voice in governance.
Otherwise, it’s a knife fight, and each side is just going to do what it can to get the bigger knife.
Thanks –
The problem with enforcing a lot of labor law, and firing union organizers in particular, is that you can’t get any evidence as to why an employee was fired. If the employees are not already unionized, they are almost certainly at will employees. At will means that the employer can fire them without cause, pretty much for any reason they want. There are a few categories that they can’t fire them for, particularly being a member of a protected class, or being union organizers.
Pretty much anything else goes. Fire away. As long as you don’t document that you are firing them for being union organizers, you’re in the clear. If you can put together something else, even better. One employer I worked for asked me to make sure that I issued a written disciplinary report for every employee, so that, in case we wanted to fire them, that we had documentation to put us in the clear.
Unless you come up with some way to put real teeth into firing rules, and put the burden of proof on the employer, Sebastian’s suggestions are a fantasy.
I see Sebastian beat me to the Zogby poll. I guess we both got the memo this morning. 😉
If employer coercion is a problem then deal with that. You want to strengthen the penalties for employer coercion?
How? I’m open to suggestions.
More vigorously prosecute with CRIMINAL penalties actual cases of punitive firing or illegal tampering with the election.
Cool. Why haven’t I heard of the business community’s support for these measures before?
Oh.My.Gawd.publius. What a bunch of hooey. Yeah, let’s protect the union bosses by stripping the worker from their right to an election. Trump up a bunch of inaccurate ‘big business’ crapola a shove it up America’s ass. Have you no shame? This pile of crap posting will forever label you as a pandering political lapcat. Jes, stick to your guns and deoderize this thing.
“in the abstract, all that sounds fine. but you’re not taking any “right” away, you’re just letting the union decide.”
I’m not interested in letting the UNION decide whether or not it gets to represent workers. I’m interested in letting the WORKERS decide. That is what the election for the existence of the union is about. “Sign This as your vote” isn’t how elections work and you have provided no argument as to why they ought to work that way. Even in stupid initiative-happy California we don’t pretend that the signing of the initiative paperwork ought to count as the entire vote itself.
“now, if elections would start 2 days after a petition and the employer had to be silent, then fine. but employer-run elections are just never going to work.”
See this is where I disagree with you vehemently. You can make the election period short. But you shouldn’t be able to silence the employer. Do you believe that the union is ALWAYS perfectly honest during a union drive? Do you believe that the company NEVER has a good faith case against a particular union drive? Elections where you silence one of the parties (even if the party has lots of power) aren’t good elections. In a normal election the idea that you can silence the incumbent would be considered ridiculous, even though it is transparent that the incumbent has more power than the challenger.
Honestly what the heck? Aren’t you liberal? You want to supress both free speech and secret ballot just because you think you will get a better outcome that way. The juxtaposition between this post and the “Why care about the rule of law” post is striking.
Do you think secret ballots are generally useful? If so why? If not, why not?
If you can’t answer that question, you shouldn’t be abolishing secret ballots.
Next,
Having explained why you think secret ballots are generally useful, explain why this particular case suggests that they should be abandoned.
I don’t think it is possible to do that because ‘secret ballot’ is a protection for the VOTER while all the arguments you are going to make about the bad COMPANY suggest that action should be taken against the company.
Now if you don’t like secret ballot, fine. But make THAT argument in good faith and be willing to extend it to other areas.
(Yes, I know, attack The Mackinac Center for Public Policy as a far right group. Take it up with Zogby – if you want to discredit these numbers then discredit the polling methodology or at least show me conflicting polls by a reputable pollster.)
I think it’s fair to say that a couple of questions – particularly the secret ballot vs. majority sign up question – are worded in a way which would tend to slant the results. With a slightly different wording, that 53-41 margin could easily tip the other way.
The other questions are similarly worded to trade upon general ignorance of the process and its fairness. MOST workers have NOT been involved with organizing fights, or been the subject of employer intimidation, so responses to question like “currently the government conducts elections, do you think that’s fair?” have fairly limited information value.
I should also point out that majority sign up is only one provision of EFCA. It also contains provisions to increase penalties for employer malfeasance.
“More vigorously prosecute with CRIMINAL penalties actual cases of punitive firing or illegal tampering with the election.
Cool. Why haven’t I heard of the business community’s support for these measures before?”
Sorry you can’t use this when Democrats control both houses and the Presidency. When they control the law making arm and the enforcement arm don’t you think that removing worker rights (which polls of union members show they want) is overkill?
The thing I don’t understand about this is why would the employer fire them? With secret ballot, the employer doesn’t know who is voting for what. And firing the union organizer is already illegal. So are you positing a situation where the company is just firing people at random in the hopes of hitting the right people? How does that work? I’m not suggesting that it could never happen. Companies do all sorts of stupid things. But it seems not very likely to happen very often. And it doesn’t even seem to be a particularly good technique. Furthermore it seems to be remedied by having a shorter election period.
As I have stated repeatedly in this thread, I have no problem with a shorter election period–especially since that is the biggest complaint. If the long election period is allowing too much from companies I have a rather less drastic solution–shorten the period rather than taking away worker rights.
See this is where I disagree with you vehemently. You can make the election period short. But you shouldn’t be able to silence the employer. Do you believe that the union is ALWAYS perfectly honest during a union drive? Do you believe that the company NEVER has a good faith case against a particular union drive? Elections where you silence one of the parties (even if the party has lots of power) aren’t good elections. In a normal election the idea that you can silence the incumbent would be considered ridiculous, even though it is transparent that the incumbent has more power than the challenger.
I think it was probably hyperbolic to say the employer has to be completely silent, but certainly a level playing field here would have to involve either substantially limiting the ways in which employers can communicate, or enhancing the rights of organizers to communicate (require that they be allowed to hold meetings on company time and property, for example).
basically a fantasy:
Testimony Of Jen Jason Former Unite-Here Organizer, Gainesville, Florida
A “card check” campaign begins with union organizers going to the homes of workers over a weekend, a tactic called “housecalling,” with the sole intent of having those workers sign authorization cards. Called a “blitz” by the unions, it entails teams of two or more organizers going directly to the homes of workers. The workers’ personal information and home addresses used during the blitz was obtained from license plates and other sources that were used to create a master list.
In most cases, the workers have no idea that there is a union campaign underway. Organizers are taught to play upon this element of surprise to get “into the door.” They are trained to perform a five part house call strategy that includes: Introductions, Listening, Agitation, Union Solution, and Commitment. The goal of the organizer is to quickly establish a trust relationship with the worker, move from talking about what their job entails to what they would like to change about their job, agitate them by insisting that management won’t fix their workplace problems without a union and finally convincing the worker to sign a card.
At the time, I personally took great pride in the fact that I could always get the worker to sign the card if I could get inside their home. Typically, if a worker signed a card, it had nothing to do with whether a worker was satisfied with the job or felt they were treated fairly by his or her boss. I found that most often it was the skill of the organizer to create issues from information the organizer had extracted from the worker during the “probe” stage of the house call that determined whether the worker signed the card. I began to realize that the number of cards that were signed had less to do with support for the union and more to do with the effectiveness of the organizer speaking to the workers.
This appears to be consistent with results of secret ballot elections that are conducted in which workers are able to vote and make their final decision free from manipulation, intimidation or pressure tactics from either side.
From my experience, the number of cards signed appear to have little relationship to the ultimate vote count. During a private election campaign, even though a union still sends organizers out to workers’ homes on frequent canvassing in attempts to gain support, the worker has a better chance to get perspective on the questions at hand. The time allocated for the election to go forward allows the worker a chance to think through his or her own issues without undue influence—thus avoiding an immediate, impulsive decision based on little or no fact. After all, the decision to join a union is often life-changing, and workers should be afforded the time to debate, discuss and research all of the options available to them.
As an organizer working under a “card check” system versus an election system, I knew that “card check” gave me the ability to quickly agitate a set of workers into signing cards. I did not have to prove the union’s case, answer more informed questions from workers or be held accountable for the service record of my union.
When the union is allowed to implement the “card check” strategy, the decision about whether or not an individual employee would choose to join a union is reduced to a crisis decision. This situation is created by the organizer and places the worker into a high
pressure sales situation. Furthermore, my experience is that in jurisdictions in which “card check” was actually legislated, organizers tended to be even more willing to harass, lie and use fear tactics to intimidate workers into signing cards. I have personally heard from workers that they signed the union card simply to get the organizer to leave their home and not harass them further. At no point during a “card check” campaign, is the opportunity created or fostered for employees to seriously consider their working lives and to think about possible solutions to any problems.
…
For example, we rarely showed workers what an actual union contract looked like because we knew that it wouldn’t necessarily reflect what a worker would want to see. We were trained to avoid topics such as dues increases, strike histories, etc. and to constantly move the worker back to what the organizer identified as his or her “issues” during the first part of the housecall. This technique was commonly referred to as “re-agitation” during organizer training sessions. The logic follows that if you can keep workers agitated and direct that anger at their boss, you can get them to sign the card. If someone told me that she was perfectly contented at work, enjoyed her job and liked her boss, I would look around her house and ask questions based on what I noticed: “wow, I bet on your salary, you’ll never be able to get your house remodeled,” or, “so does the company pay for day care?” These were questions to which I knew the answer and could use to make her feel that she was cheated by her boss. Five minutes earlier she had just told me that she was feeling good about her work situation.
Frankly, it isn’t difficult to agitate someone in a short period of time, work them up to the point where they are feeling very upset, tell them that I have the solution, and that if they simply sign a card, the union will solve all of their problems. I know many workers who later, upon reflection, knew that they had been manipulated and asked for their card to be returned to them. The union’s strategy, of course, was never to return or destroy such cards, but to include them in the official count towards the majority. This is why it is imperative that workers have the time and the space to make a reasoned decision based on the facts and their true feelings.
In addition to the “housecall,” the union frequently employs other tactics to manipulate the card numbers and add legitimacy to their organizing drive. One strategy is to manipulate unit size. One of the most common ways that we ensured the union could claim that we had reached a majority was to change the size of the group of workers we were going to organize after the drive was finished. During the blitz, workers in every department would be “housecalled,” but if need be, certain groups of workers would be removed from the final unit, regardless of their level of union support. In doing so, the union reduced the number of cards needed to reach a majority. Another such strategy is that organizers are told to train workers to “provoke” unfair labor practices on the part of the company in an attempt to create campaign legitimacy and coerce a “card check” agreement.
One egregious example was when Ernest Bennett, the Director of Organizing for UNITE at the time, told a room full of organizers during a training meeting for the Cintas campaign that if three workers weren’t fired by the end of the first week of organizing, UNITE would not win the campaign. Another strategy is that organizers are told not to file any unfair labor practice charges because it would slow the “card check” process and make time for the workers to question their decisions.
After four years of watching what I feel were disgraceful practices on the part of organizing unions, and having experienced personal discrimination in my own workplace, I chose to leave UNITE, though I remain committed to work toward fairness and prosperity for both employers and employees in the American workplace.
“I think it’s fair to say that a couple of questions – particularly the secret ballot vs. majority sign up question – are worded in a way which would tend to slant the results.”
I quoted the words. I didn’t do anything to hide them.
Tell us exactly what you think was unfair.
–thanks
“I think it was probably hyperbolic to say the employer has to be completely silent,”
I don’t think so. Publius has taken the employer silence position repeatedly in previous threads, and to my memory has not backed away from it.
The thing I don’t understand about this is why would the employer fire them? With secret ballot, the employer doesn’t know who is voting for what. And firing the union organizer is already illegal. So are you positing a situation where the company is just firing people at random in the hopes of hitting the right people? How does that work? I’m not suggesting that it could never happen. Companies do all sorts of stupid things. But it seems not very likely to happen very often. And it doesn’t even seem to be a particularly good technique. Furthermore it seems to be remedied by having a shorter election period.
The employer fires the organizers who are, necessarily, well known. The fact that this is illegal is little deterrent. One reason among many being – as was pointed out – it is very difficult to prove that this was the actual reason they were fired. And that’s when the government is even interested in enforcing the law…
The workers’ personal information and home addresses used during the blitz was obtained from license plates and other sources that were used to create a master list.
This is noteworthy. While union organizers have to painstakingly assemble a list of contacts from things like license plates, the employer has a complete list of names and addresses (and next of kin, even) ready to go. Fair?
it’s the employees’ federal right to self-organize. why should the employer get to influence that?
obviously, he/she has something at stake. but history has shown that the influence is used for malicious ends, so i say draw that bright line. the costs of cutting them out are less than keeping them in
The thing I don’t understand about this is why would the employer fire them?
How are you proposing that the union run an organizing campaign in which no one is actually, you know, organizing?
Also, how does this work in multiple-union situations or with disagreements among unions. (What? Disagreements among unions? Yes, it happens. See also disagreements between local unions and their national reps on strategy–Freightliner case anyone).
Can unions agitate against each other for representation using card check? Does the other union get to make its case or should we silence them.
What if a local wants to break off over a disagreement with the national organization? Do they get to shut up the national organization? Do they have access to card check rather than a real vote?
I quoted the words. I didn’t do anything to hide them.
Tell us exactly what you think was unfair.
I wouldn’t say unfair exactly, merely that as with any survey, the wording can profoundly affect the responses.
Here’s the text of question 13:
Oops. Blockquote fail. Hopefully you can figure it out.
“it’s the employees’ federal right to self-organize. why should the employer get to influence that?
obviously, he/she has something at stake. but history has shown that the influence is used for malicious ends, so i say draw that bright line. the costs of cutting them out are less than keeping them in”
This is ridiculous. First of all we are talking about 1st amendment free !@#%#$#ing speech about a politically valent topic. We let NAZIs talk about how Jews are evil but we won’t let companies talk about how unionzing might effect the company?
Seriously?
The war in Iraq is less likely to directly impact a worker’s life than a bad union hurting the company, but you want people to be able to talk about the former but want to silence people about the latter?
Seriously?
And you keep saying that it is the EMPLOYEE’S right to self-organize, but you do things that will protect only whatever UNION is currently organizing.
It should be impossible to say “we think the UAW is going to drive us under, but another union could probably work?”
It should be impossible to TRUTHFULLY say “we think this union will make this plant uncompetitive because we are already right on the knife edge of profit as it is?”
And what if actual workers want to talk with each other about alternatives? If you remove the election entirely (which is what you are proposing) the other side of the argument is never heard. Just ‘here is MY case’ please sign.
Why is that conducive to good decision-making?
Jack, the funny thing about your wording is that I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see no movenment whatsoever. So long as you have to mention secret ballot (and you have to if you want to describe the two things accurately) I’m pretty sure that people are going to think “secret ballot generally better than not”.
You might want to avoid the majority wording too, as the poll suggests that 62% of already existing union workers in the poll think that 2/3 or more should be necessary to form a union…
Sebastian’s question is not actually why the employers would fire actively pro-union workers; that should be obvious. His question is really how the company knows who to fire. The answer to that is clear from even the most minimal exposure to the history of labor organizing — or from the words to the song ‘Union Maid’: company finks, spies, stools.
Techniques promoted by union-busting consultants and today’s technologies expand the possibilities for company intelligence gathering.
It should be impossible to TRUTHFULLY say “we think this union will make this plant uncompetitive because we are already right on the knife edge of profit as it is?”
If this is the case, it can just as well be an issue for the bargaining table.
In any case, the present situation is still one of dramatic tilt in favor of the employer. To even level the playing field, we would need to either severely restrict the ability of employers to influence the election, or strongly enhance the ability of organizers to communicate with employees (meetings on company time, contact lists shared by the personnel department, etc.).
Sebastian: Also, how does this work in multiple-union situations or with disagreements among unions.
By whichever union gets a majority of cards signed first. Or by a secret-ballot election if 30% of the workers call for it, as EFCA provides.
Jack, the funny thing about your wording is that I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see no movenment whatsoever. So long as you have to mention secret ballot (and you have to if you want to describe the two things accurately) I’m pretty sure that people are going to think “secret ballot generally better than not”.
You’ll note that BOTH choices now have a secret ballot option, and I probably could’ve tilted option 2 a little further without being particularly inaccurate. (Even dropping mention of the SECRET ballot wouldn’t really have been inaccurate – no more slanted than the first version in any case.)
And for what it’s worth, I would be very surprised if the changed wording (and similar changes on other questions) didn’t move the numbers at least a little. And the margin ain’t that big to begin with.
But we can disagree on that. The point is it’s certainly a legitimate doubt about the poll’s methodology – so it’s far from clear from that poll that a majority of well-informed workers would not support majority sign-up.
If this is the case, it can just as well be an issue for the bargaining table.
I should say that this really should be an issue for the (post-union formation) bargaining table, where professional union negotiators and researchers will be far more able to assess the validity of such claims than will workers sorting through a cloud of employer FUD.
I think the key problem, publius, is that you are treating the right of some particular union as if it was identical to the rights of the workers at some particular plant or company.
But the whole question is “Do THESE workers want THIS UNION to represent them?”
In that situation, you can’t treat the interests of THESE WORKERS and THAT UNION as the same. THESE WORKERS have not yet expressed that they want THIS UNION to represent them.
In this conversation, you repeatedly treat the rights and needs of the union seeking the right of representation and the worker who has not yet signed over the right of representation as if they were identical. They aren’t.
I have worked in unionized environments, and have also been involved with two organizations during attempts to unionize. The pressure to sign the card is great, and it is very public, and everyone knows who has or hasn’t signed cards. Currently the union can tell people to sign cards because they will still have the right to vote in a secret election.
I can’t believe the pressure will be any less (from both organizers and peers) if the card signing is all that is needed. This is the exact opposite of anything democratic. The secret ballot is essential.
Furthermore, unions DO overpromise during the campaign. And in fact, there is a lot of regulation of what the company can and cannot say. Essentially once a campaign is underway, ANY statement by a company about future benefits, even if planned before the campaign, is considered an unfair practice. Even if the employer had been planning an across-the-board wage hike for months before the campaign, they can’t do it or talk about it because it would be perceived as trying to buy votes. The union, on the other hand, can promise virtually anything.
The value of unions can be great, especially as regards employee safety and benefits. But unions have become dinosaurs too, paying more attention to their own management than to their members. They defend the jobs of people who are absolute drains on the business. They file grievances, some valid, some petty, that cost large sums of money to adjudicate. (If they’re mad at management, they purposely file frivolous claims.) They back seniority over job performance in virtually every situation.
At one big company where I worked, there was a major layoff. The SUB fund (supplemental unemployment) was exhausted by people with seniority taking a year off at 90% pay, and then coming back. Following that, after the funds ran out, the newer people were let go with no benefits. What a triumph of brotherhood.
It DOES make sense to say that two wrongs don’t make a right in this context. If unions are seen as being unfairly treated in the election process, fix that; don’t take away the worker’s right to vote. The worker’s interest and the union’s interest are not necessarily one and the same.
In this conversation, you repeatedly treat the rights and needs of the union seeking the right of representation and the worker who has not yet signed over the right of representation as if they were identical. They aren’t.
I think what you’re arguing for is some kind of organized opposition to the union drive. Which is fine.
What’s not at all clear is that the employer should be (or should even be allowed to be) this opposition, rather than a group of employees paralleling the group that is attempting to organize.
“And the margin ain’t that big to begin with.”
The margin is 12%. That is pretty big. And while we are talking about potential interview bias, please note that the secret ballot choice is the second choice, so first choice bias went to card-check.
“By whichever union gets a majority of cards signed first.”
Why is this a good system of choosing between unions? Again it is like pretending that signing an initiative ought to count as the actual vote.
“I think what you’re arguing for is some kind of organized opposition to the union drive. Which is fine.”
How is that going to happen when you remove the election entirely?
“What’s not at all clear is that the employer should be (or should even be allowed to be) this opposition, rather than a group of employees paralleling the group that is attempting to organize.”
Unless you are going to completely destroy the First Amendment, I don’t see what you could mean.
Unless you are an uber-paternalist and think that workers are just too dumb to make their own decisions (which I’m actually beginning to wonder if that isn’t the underlying belief) you have to believe that the worker is going to weigh information to make a decision. What you are proposing is limiting the information available to decision maker.
That is an intentional recipe for bad decision-making.
I don’t understand why you are so interested in that. It is as if you have decided that any possible union organizing at any possible time must always be a good thing and then are setting up a procedure which ignores any individual worker interests to make it happen.
I don’t see why that is a good approach, especially considering that allegedly this is all being done to represent the worker’s interests.
It kinda makes me think that representing the actual worker’s interests isn’t that important.
And why would you be surprised that a newspaper like the Post seems to favor the business side of this issue?
Most newspapers have destroyed what ever union shops were involved in their publishing business and also turned carrier employees into contract labor so they wouldn’t have to pay into any tax programs.
The margin is 12%. That is pretty big. And while we are talking about potential interview bias, please note that the secret ballot choice is the second choice, so first choice bias went to card-check.
The sample size was only about 700, and while many questions had clear majorities in the 60-70% range, this one didn’t. I think it’s pretty clearly a point that’s open to persuasion – many union members are really not aware of the issues or intimidation involved, and this survey does little to prime them about it.
It’s also worth noting that this is a survey of current union members.
Union members enjoy better wages and benefits, but they largely take that for granted, and meanwhile the union still hasn’t solved ALL their problems, so they’re skeptical. Such is human nature. Support for strong union organization tools is often stronger among nonunion members, especially those who have had occasion to work with or observe unionized workers in a similar field, and the benefits they receive.
[Nell]: “By whichever union gets a majority of cards signed first.”
Seb: “Why is this a good system of choosing between unions?”
If 30% of the workforce thinks a secret-ballot election would be a better system for choosing between competing unions, then that’s what will happen.
If they don’t, then workers will express their preferences by signing cards. It’s as good a system for choosing between unions as it is for choosing a particular union: it expresses the preference of workers. It’s a ballot.
Unless you are going to completely destroy the First Amendment, I don’t see what you could mean.
I think measures such as mandatory anti-union seminars, paying estimated union dues separately, and threatening mass firings can be legitimately viewed as crossing something of a line beyond what is protected by the first amendment.
Meanwhile, the union is legally and structurally prohibited from engaging in many of the types of communication the employer uses. The issues are somewhat similar to campaign finance – and the first amendment implications are not so clear cut.
Sebastian: What you are proposing is limiting the information available to decision maker.
This is just disingenuous. As a comment above makes clear, labor law (though not well enforced) already limits what companies can do and say during a union election period — exactly because they’re not “making information available” but using their overwhelming power as employers against employees, i.e., making bribes and/or threats.
It isn’t a normal ballot. I don’t get to walk up to you and make sure you sign up the right person for president. I don’t get to personally ask you to do it AND know for sure whether or not you did.
You haven’t presented a good explanation of why I should be able to in a union situation and not able to in oh just about every other representation election in the United States.
Choosing a union is way more important for your life than choosing a city council member or a school board member, but you wouldn’t even consider removing secret ballots in those cases.
“Support for strong union organization tools is often stronger among nonunion members, especially those who have had occasion to work with or observe unionized workers in a similar field, and the benefits they receive.”
I’ve provided my citations, could you please provide your evidence?
And while we are talking about potential interview bias, please note that the secret ballot choice is the second choice, so first choice bias went to card-check.
Meant to address this. Presumably, they rotated the order of the answer choices. (And while I’m not familiar with the intricacies of survey design pitfalls, it’s not clear to me why there should be a first choice bias in such a lengthy queston.)
In any case, this question (and the priming questions at the beginning of the survey) is clearly tilted in favor of the result they wanted.
Not unfairly, necessarily, but enough that I think it’s very plausible you could get substantially different results with a different survey design. You simply can’t claim that a 52% response on this question means workers are unfavorably disposed to majority sign-up.
“This is just disingenuous. As a comment above makes clear, labor law (though not well enforced) already limits what companies can do and say during a union election period — exactly because they’re not “making information available” but using their overwhelming power as employers against employees, i.e., making bribes and/or threats.”
It limits bribes and threats, not actual truthful information.
And are you arguing for removing secret ballot with this comment or against it? As you note, the problem already has laws in place that don’t involve removing the secret ballot from workers who have nothing to do with the wrongdoing you are trying to correct. You suggest that they have been underenforced.
Are you aware that Democrats will control the enforcement mechanisms?
I’ve provided my citations, could you please provide your evidence?
This is an “IIRC” thing. Not sure where I remember it from – might have been a survey of some kind, or simply anecdotal. If you don’t find the concept plausible, place whatever weight you like on it.
“In any case, this question (and the priming questions at the beginning of the survey) is clearly tilted in favor of the result they wanted.”
You still haven’t shown the part that you think is clearly tilted in favor of the result they wanted. You have shown how you could tilt it more in favor of what you wanted, but you have not shown (or even really suggested) how that wording was tilted in a way that suggests that we didn’t get an accurate view of the union worker’s beliefs on the question. And if you are going to frame it as only 52% in favor of of secret ballot, you have to note that it was only 41% in favor of card check. So if 52% shows only a slight majority in favor of secret ballot, 41% must show a pretty serious overall dislike of card check.
And again that question has nothing to do with majority sign up. Card check is independent of the threshold required for representation.
Question 18 deals with that. 62% of union workers believe that a 2/3 vote or more should be required to bind workers to a union.
You still haven’t shown the part that you think is clearly tilted in favor of the result they wanted. You have shown how you could tilt it more in favor of what you wanted, but you have not shown (or even really suggested) how that wording was tilted in a way that suggests that we didn’t get an accurate view of the union worker’s beliefs on the question.
I would have thought this is fairly obvious. For one thing, it’s two sides of the same coin. I tilted the question the other way without being inaccurate.
It’s also an issue of priming. Neither this question, nor any of the previous questions, bring up any issues about employer intimidation of union organizers. Issues that ARE brought up are things like fat salaries for lazy union bosses.
And then of course there’s the obvious. The first option is made to sound complicated and awkward. In the second the “government” simply holds a wonderful, fair election with SECRET BALLOTS. No mention of a secret ballot option in the first choice. No context about intimidation.
Question 18 deals with that. 62% of union workers believe that a 2/3 vote or more should be required to bind workers to a union.
Question 18 is rather carefully worded with the phrase “before that union that represents ALL WORKERS”.
It’s difficult for me to conclude from that that a question along the lines of “how many votes should be cast before employees are allowed to form a union” would get an identical response.
It’s difficult for me to conclude from that that a question along the lines of “how many votes should be cast before employees are allowed to form a union” would get an identical response.
Or even “How many workers should have to sign up before they are allowed to form a union?”
But this is exactly what validates Sebastian’s objection.
Supporters of EFCA (disclaimer: that currently includes me) argue that while preserving ballot secrecy would certainly be preferable in theory, the existing system is so ridiculously out of whack that those ballots can’t be protected from employer coercion. Faced with a choice between “keep the secret ballot” and “level the playing field” we decide to level the playing field. Opponents of EFCA don’t oppose leveling the playing field any more than supporters want to get rid of the secret ballot. They just disagree that card check is a reasonable way to level the playing field.
And they’ve got a very good point. As Sebastian points out, the playing field is already supposed to be level. EFCA addresses the lack of enforcement of labor laws by making different laws that are easier to enforce, and restructuring the mediation and arbitration processes. This sweeps the original selective enforcement problem under the rug. What if the selective enforcement problem turns out to apply to the new laws as well?
To borrow russell’s excellent metaphor, EFCA gives the unions a very large, very sharp knife, in order to let them compete with employers. This solves the problem not by creating additional rewards for cooperation but by arming the insurgency in case they’re viable and stepping in if it turns out to be a stalemate. A strategy with a mixed history of success.
By any reasonable measure card check is an escalation, rather than a de-escalation (or detente) of the battle for employee “mindshare” between employers and unions. It practically guarantees that employers will alter their own tactics in potentially unfortunate ways, and it offers no benefit to organizers who educate instead of persuading. It creates a systemic preference, in other words, for more persuasive (and profitable) unions over more effective and informative ones. Cf. collapse of the US news media.
There are other reasons why I tend to think EFCA is worth passing anyway. But anybody supporting it ought to at least be able to acknowledge that it’s an awkward and statist solution which could indeed create worse problems than what it’s trying to solve.
radish-
Agreed. Although again I’d point out that EFCA increases enforcement against shady tactics from employers as well: heavier fines, civil penalties, and making mandatory injuctive relief available to organizers as well as employers. (In other words, it strengthens existing laws by making some of them easier to enforce.)
FWIW, I did some research back in law school for a paper on an overlapping subject and concluded that
a) employers do very often fire union organizers
b) even if the company gets caught at it, the penalties are pretty small, the rationale being that the only ‘real’ harm is to the individual worker, not the union or the workforce, so it’s still a pretty good deal for the company
c) to be fair, unions ‘salt’ workplaces with organizers — i.e., organizers get a job solely for the purpose of organizing. I can hardly blame employers for being upset about this. It also tends to create a built-in defense for organizer firing, in that the ‘salts’ are often lousy workers, because they’re new and unmotivated and steal time from the job to organize.
Sebastian, I like secret ballots too. But I think you’re wrong to say that there’s no connection between the card system and the employer abuses: at least part of the point is to compensate for the employer’s captive audience advantage. I don’t see a problem with the “hard sales” techniques described upthread (enter, agitate, etc.). Maybe some unions do coerce, but these particular techniques are far from coercive. Why is it wrong to remind someone that a union can get her better wages and she could use them? If the union rep made the exact same visit & speech, without the card, would that be a problem? I think not.
So how about the following system:
Announce the election two weeks ahead. Let the employer make his “how unions kill companies” speeches & slideshow, and whatever, and let the union reps go door to door — but instead of a card, they ask the worker to call a toll-free number, enter a randomized ID, and press 1 or 2. The union still does a one-on-one sales pitch, but the ballot is secret.
Well, fine, Sebastian. How do you propose to have the secret ballot be workable in an immediate way so that employers can’t stop employees from joining a union and forcing their employer to recognize it?
Well I think I can address Sebastian’s concerns about protecting the secret ballot and lessening union intimidation. As it stands now, IIRC, you have the card check and one a certain percentage is reached a vote is scheduled. Now the problem is that the company delays (or perhaps there is a long automatic delay) when the company can find out who is organizing the drive and who the main sponsers are and they can hold meetings where they can make all sorts of threats, enforceable and unenforceable, misstate the law, etc.
So why tell the employer about the certification at all? Once all the cards are in an election is scheduled without informing the ocmpany and ballots can be mailed to each worker.
Otherwise, it’s a knife fight, and each side is just going to do what it can to get the bigger knife.
At least some candidness on the union position, but I fail to see how a secret ballot is bringing a knife to a knife fight.
so if we are going to have a knife fight, and the knife is apparently the card check, why not make it available to both sides? Exactly what rationale exists to give one side an unfair advantage?
Employees should be able to make their own decision based on relevant facts from both sides. Card checks prevent that from happening. Sure, shorten the election period, but give both sides adequate time to present their positions. Nothing here, IMHO, would warrant abandoning secret ballot.
Jes: cite Google Jeff Ward, UAW and Freightliner and you’ll get the basics. I can’t post the link in my legal research software to the case.
Admittedly, most of the stuff on the web is from “employer” organizations. But you’ll get the drift.
The pressure to sign the card is great, and it is very public, and everyone knows who has or hasn’t signed cards.
So what? refuse to sign a card what are they going to do, make them quit? physicial intimidation? It should be noted that making threats of physicial harm is illegal and should be reported to the police, so I don’t understand what the concern is?
If unions actually had the same leverage that employers had you might have an argument. But you can’t hand-waive away employer intimidation on the grounds that it is already illegal to fire union organizers, yet still say physical intimidation, also illegal and far more serious, is a huge problem that needs to be addressed in card check.
If the majority of employees really want a union I have no problem with that, so long as . . . c) I’m not forced to join the union based on 51% signing the card.
Just to be clear, if you’re not going to join the union, you’re going to negotiate completely independent for wages, benefits, etc., and refuse to take advantage of any gains that the union achieves. Right?
So what? refuse to sign a card what are they going to do, make them quit? physicial intimidation? It should be noted that making threats of physicial harm is illegal and should be reported to the police, so I don’t understand what the concern is?
This can’t be emphasized enough.
The organizers going door-to-door are not mobbed-up New Jersey longshoremen, they’re fellow employees. And we’re talking about organizing things like Walmarts or the service staff at a hotel or a university. As I think Hilzoy has pointed out, a union organizer these days is more likely to be a young woman. (Indeed, the vast majority of union organizers I know are just that.) I don’t mean to imply that they aren’t formidable, but the notion that there’s a lot of physical intimidation or other threats is absurd.
As for well-honed pitches… Well, I certainly hope they are. But it’s insulting workers’ intelligence to equate this with depriving them of a choice.
Sure, shorten the election period, but give both sides adequate time to present their positions. Nothing here, IMHO, would warrant abandoning secret ballot.
The major problem with this, and the background for the whole discussion, is that regardless of equal TIME, organizers simply do not have equal MEANS to “present their positions”.
Currently they have to painstakingly try to track down names and addresses for as many employees as possible. Then go door to door in off hours and individually present the pitch for the union and with luck obtain a signature. Then if they manage to contact enough people and get enough signatures, there’ll be an election. Maybe. Delayed as long as the employer can manage, while the emplyer: makes threats, holds mandatory meetings where it presents it presents anti-union FUD, ferrets out the identities of organizers and supporters and fires or harasses them, sends out multiple mailings to employers and their spouses, SWEARS up and down it will address all the workers’ concerns, as long as they don’t form a union, etc., etc.
Meanwhile, organizers can try to painstakingly go through their (possibly incomplete) list again. Door to door. Maybe send a couple mailings. Catch a few minutes during breaks (maybe).
Like Publius said, it’s as if Al Franken had unlimited funds and time and the ability to fire anyone, but Coleman was limited to talking to people on his lunch break.
Question 13: I’m going to describe two ways that workers might be asked to decide if they want to become part of a union and ask you which of the two ways is most fair.
This implies that it’s one or the other, not the opportunity to have both options available. I don’t think this question really supports your argument, nor what most of the people here are arguing for.
Expelitalicus!
fledermaus: So why tell the employer about the certification at all? Once all the cards are in an election is scheduled without informing the ocmpany and ballots can be mailed to each worker.
This overlooks the reality of company spies. Companies pay or otherwise reward workers who agree to pass them information about union and pro-union activity.
mattH: [Question 13 of the 2004 Mackinac Center poll] implies that it’s one or the other, not the opportunity to have both options available.
The Employee Free Choice Act, it can’t be said often enough, makes both options available. It does not mandate card check; if 30% of the workforce call for it, there is a secret-ballot election on the question of union representation.
I tell you what. Me and four of my large mammal friends are going to show up at your house one weekend unannounced. We’re gonna have a card in hand that says that you vote against implementing the Card Check law.
We’re gonna sit in your living room until you (try to) throw us out or you sign the card.
Capiche?
Nah, I don’t like that system either.
I tell you what. Me and four of my large mammal friends are going to show up at your house one weekend unannounced. We’re gonna have a card in hand that says that you vote against implementing the Card Check law.
We’re gonna sit in your living room until you (try to) throw us out or you sign the card.
Capiche?
If that described the actual process, rather than some bad HBO parody of it, I’d agree with you.
But it doesn’t. So I don’t.
fledermaus and jack think the possibility of intimidation into signing a card is minimal:
“So what? refuse to sign a card what are they going to do, make them quit? physicial intimidation? It should be noted that making threats of physicial harm is illegal and should be reported to the police, so I don’t understand what the concern is?”
Oh, my. Apparently you haven’t dealt much with the old-time unions, not the modern service-oriented unions. It isn’t necessarily the official union organizers that will retaliate, it’s the co-workers that the union has gotten riled up. Your car tires can be slashed, a noxious substance can be dumped into your locker, your equipment can be tampered with, your window at home can be shot at with a BB gun….the list is endless. Of course you can report it to the police. Are they going to be able to find out who did it? Even if that doesn’t happen, you’ll get the “SCAB” label and be treated like a pariah.
Emotions run high during these campaigns, and people do things to co-workers that they wouldn’t normally do because they believe it’s a life-and-death decision.
It does not mandate card check; if 30% of the workforce call for it, there is a secret-ballot election on the question of union representation.
And furthermore, if memory serves, the employer can mandate a secret-ballot election if it can prove — to what degree I don’t recall — that the card check has been tampered with by union organizers.
Oh, my. Apparently you haven’t dealt much with the old-time unions, not the modern service-oriented unions.
I’ll see your cartoonish “Goodfellas” understanding of unions and put it up against 100 years of labor history with an extensive record of employer retaliation and violence. I think I know who’s going to copme out ahead.
Completely off the point musing:
I’ve never been in a union. I’ve never worked for a company that had unions. No one in my family has either (not parents, not siblings, not children). So I don’t know anything about this. Mostly I wonder why anyone would want a job that measures and compensates them as part of a group rather than as an individual. Can’t … quite … see … it. If you’re special then wouldn’t you want a job that shows it? And if you’re not special at this job why aren’t you looking for a job you would be special at?
Mostly I wonder why anyone would want a job that measures and compensates them as part of a group rather than as an individual.
Because every single person cleaning hotel rooms is a precious, individual snowflake whose excellence and great attitude is bound to be recognized by the big company that owns the chain, eh?
Simple answer, Dave: Because the compensation is much more adequate when negotiated by a group. Power relations.
“Announce the election two weeks ahead. Let the employer make his “how unions kill companies” speeches & slideshow, and whatever, and let the union reps go door to door — but instead of a card, they ask the worker to call a toll-free number, enter a randomized ID, and press 1 or 2. The union still does a one-on-one sales pitch, but the ballot is secret.”
I’m totally ok with that, but that isn’t card check at all. The whole point of card check is that unions don’t want a secret ballot vote.
And looking at the EFCA increased penalties for actual intimidation tactics I’m all for that too.
“It does not mandate card check; if 30% of the workforce call for it, there is a secret-ballot election on the question of union representation.”
Unless you are talking about something else (and I’m not an expert so I could be confused) this is the full text of the bill. It doesn’t require anything like part of the card to offer a secret ballot option which then 30% of the people can choose.
You may be talking about Section 159(e) which would then mandate a separate election if on a separate petition 30% of the employees request it. That seems like a recipe for a mess especially if conducted in the company-free world that publius desires. Union focuses on high-pressure, short-time period card check with misleading information. It gets certified. Now any employee who wants to make an objection get his *first chance* to have a voice by agitating for a vote while the newly ‘formed’ union is right in the middle of its first contract negotiations under Section 3 of the EFCA.
How could that possibly cause problems for those employees, amiright?
dddddddave, did you suppose in your shiny isolation that employers evaluate each employee as a bright little unique snowflake, and decide with painstaking concentration what’s just and right you as an individual should be paid?
I am a 4th-generation union member. My great-grandfather joined a railway union to get paid living wages for his work as a porter instead of being expected to subsist on tips alone. My grandfather belonged to a railway union (and retired with a good pension and ran a pub and sent my dad to Oxford). Would my dad have been educated to a level where he could pass the Oxbridge exhibition if not for the railway unions that got my grandfather and great-grandfather fair wages and a good pension? Who knows: but I joined a union the day it dawned on me that my employer was covertly breaking the law with regard to how they were treating me, and without a union to back me they’d have got away with it, too.
The notion that an individual worker negotiates as an equal with an employer for better working conditions and wages? Is a notion that benefits employers greatly, and individual workers not at all.
Nell
//Because every single person cleaning hotel rooms is a precious, individual snowflake whose excellence and great attitude is bound to be recognized by the big company that owns the chain, eh?//
Exactly. So why wouldn’t that person recognize that it’s best shot at fair compensation is to be a free agent cleaning hotel rooms as a subcontractor?
Nell
//Power relations.//
I really think this is a false notion. It is not power that commands prosperity – it is productivity that earns it. Sure power can grab it for awhile but that is like building on sand. If you build your hopes and actions on productivity and owning your own time then your hope will be built on a more sure foundation than mere ‘power in numbers’.
Actually I’m not convinced that the 30% rule is as you have stated it at all unless there is ALJ rulings or something that interpret the text beyond what it seems to be. The text of Section 159(e) is:
It looks to me like this would play out as follows:
1) Union gets card check. It may or may not have been candid in the process, you don’t seem worried about it. You also don’t seem worried about a lack of even minor discussions by empoloyers. Dissenting workers have no say at this point.
2) Union has mandatory first contract negotiations under Section 3 of the EFCA. At this point there is no right under Section 159(e) because there is no “bargaining unit covered by an agreement between their employer and a labor organization”
Dissenting workers have still not had a chance for input.
3) Contract is completed within 90 days (unless it goes to arbitration, if it goes to arbitration dissenting employees STILL have no input). Dissenting employees are bound under the contract.
4) only now can they request a secret ballot. And they are going to have to do it publically and immediately after what may have been very nasty initial contract negotiations with a newly formed union bargaining unit.
Jesurgislac
In my shiny isolation I see a difference between us:
I would say, “this job/employer situation is not recognizing my true value so i’ll find a different job/employer situation that does. Or I’ll make my own.”
I’m guessing you would say, “this job/employer situation is not recognizing me true value so i’ll make him/her see it. I’ll make this job suit me (by exercising political power if necessary.”
I may be wrong about what you would say. But the reason I choose my course instead of the other is that I have more confidence in my ability to adapt than in the ability/willingness of any job/employer combination to adapt.
It is not power that commands prosperity – it is productivity that earns it. Sure power can grab it for awhile but that is like building on sand.
Then the people with power and wealth in this society have built on sand. Because they have definitely grabbed it for the last thirty years. Productivity gains by workers have not been close to matched by real wage gains.
Unionization has plummeted in the same period. That’s not the only cause; tax policies favoring the rich to a ridiculous degree during the Reagan and Bush administrations played a big role, too.
But in both cases, I’d say it was a deficit of power by the organized working class.
“So what? refuse to sign a card what are they going to do, make them quit? physicial intimidation? It should be noted that making threats of physicial harm is illegal and should be reported to the police, so I don’t understand what the concern is?”
Interesting. If I raise the idea that it is already illegal to fire organizers, that is treated as laughable. But the idea that threats of physical harm is illegal is supposed to convince me that card check couldn’t possibly open anyone up to intimidation, which labor unions have certainly NEVER engaged in (cough UAW, 2005).
Hypothetical: If an anti-abortion group were to agitate in a community with fliers saying “This is where Dr. Abortionist lives, go tell him how you really feel about abortion” would you call that an intimidation tactic? cite
I wonder if the fact that he was stabbed illegally was a comfort to Rod Carter
Were the Molotov cocktails for the New York Daily News strike meant for peaceful purposes? Bombing of delivery trucks? Scabs hit with baseball bats?
d’d’dave: Exactly. So why wouldn’t that person recognize that it’s best shot at fair compensation is to be a free agent cleaning hotel rooms as a subcontractor?
1: “Its”? We’re talking about a human being here; I think you mean “his or her”
2: The best shot at fair compensation is not remotely as a “free agent”; it’s by joining with other workers to bargain colletively with the employer.
Just a person’s best shot at a lower health insurance rate with the least chance of being refused coverage because of “pre-existing conditions” is through an employer- or government-negotiated health plan, rather than on their own up against the insurer.
d’d’d’docile dave, I recommend this site to you: it’ll give you a lot of useful insight into the relationship of employer and employee that, at the moment, you appear to be completely ignorant of.
It’s basic, but at your level of shiny ignorance it’s probably the best entry-level text you can cope with.
And I can’t believe I forgot about Eddie York, shot in the back of the head. cite
You’ll notice that most of these cases are from the 80s and 90s, back when union organization was likely to be more successful than the 2000s. The 2000s weren’t as friendly to unions in terms of enforcement. Yet fewer deaths. That may or may not be a coincidence.
Nell
//Because they have definitely grabbed it for the last thirty years. Productivity gains by workers have not been close to matched by real wage gains.//
That’s because communications technology and development overseas made it easier to locate jobs anywhere. Workers have had to compete with lower wage workers everywhere in the world. Globalization happened. I don’t see how unionization would have held back that tide.
@Sebastian: My understanding of the 30% rule may not be correct; it was based on remarks by other supporters of the Employee Free Choice Act, not on reading of the bill itself.
So I’ll check around to see if there are rulings or anything else that contradicts the scenario you paint based on the quoted text.
Sebastian: If I raise the idea that it is already illegal to fire organizers, that is treated as laughable.
Because companies fire union organizers all the time, and suffer no penalty for it whatsoever.
You’re also rather avoiding the point that in a dangerous industry – such as coal mining – one of the best safeguards a worker can have is for there to be a strong union in the plant in which they work, ensuring that safety regulations are enforced.
Not that this – or anything – justifies murder. But what you find – certainly in UK industries – is that the more dangerous the industry, the more essential the union, and the more angry/resentful a worker will get at fellow workers who will naturally benefit from the union’s work – safety regulations benefit all workers, not just union members – but who will not pay union dues nor take part in union actions for the benefit of everyone.
Apparently, d^xave is unaware that, ever since the tide turned from companies having “personnel” departments to “human resources,” most employees are evaluated as members of a group anyway. Each employee has a certain job classification with a ceiling on its salary range, and the only way to get beyond that is to jump classifications. So, if you’re an X, even a Senior X, it doesn’t matter if you are the best damned Senior X to ever walk down the pike. If you’re maxed on out salary, too bad for you; that’s the upper limit for all Senior X’s.
at dave
The reason why it makes sense for people to unionize together rather than to strike out on their own is often economies of scale. There are plenty of cases where big business makes sense. In these cases, the most effective way to protect the rank and file is to unionize.
Phil
Yes, I know that. That’s the very reason I left a job i’d held for 5 years and struck out on my own in 1990 (when I was 30 and had two kids and not much savings). I was tired of trying to shine all year and only earning $200 more than the others in my category. Why people continue to beat their heads on that wall I do not understand. Political action is not the best way forward. Finding another job is the best way forward.
I was tired of trying to shine all year and only earning $200 more than the others in my category.
What, a special little snowflake like yourself didn’t somehow manage, as a unique individual, to negotiate a higher wage for yourself? Why not? Do you feel that anyone else could have done it, though you could not?
//That’s the very reason I left a job i’d held for 5 years and struck out on my own in 1990 (when I was 30 and had two kids and not much savings).//
It’s really good that you were able to do that and make it work.
That same option is not always available to everyone, for a very wide variety of reasons. Health care, for one.
There are also industries which don’t really lend themselves to the entrepreneurial small shop business model.
For one reason or another, a lot of people find themselves working for somebody else. A lot of those folks get their wages, and nothing more than their wages, and those wages are kept as low as they can be kept.
The only way for those folks to get a voice in the governance of the companies they work for is to organize. So that’s what they do.
Saying that what they should really do instead is quit their jobs and hang out their own shingle is, as I think should be obvious, not really a practical solution for many, many people.
Thanks –
Exactly. So why wouldn’t that person recognize that it’s best shot at fair compensation is to be a free agent cleaning hotel rooms as a subcontractor?
I’m vaguely curious why you think this would actually work — I don’t know of any hotels that would hire a small external shop when they could in-house the costs — but I’m really curious how you think this would work for, say, coal-miners.
Coal miners should change industries. Our president elect has said he plans to bankrupt the industry.
Everyone here should read Thomas Geoghegan, author of “The Law In Shambles”, and “Whose Side Are You On?”, two brilliant books. His proposal?
“Amend the Civil Rights Act to prevent discrimination “on the basis of union membership”?
I agree with this simple and effective policy to “level the playing field”, a goal advocated by most commenters here who pretty much agree the playing field is currently tilted way in favor of employors.
So what’s not to like? Discuss.
fledermaus, I have worked in a factory union shop. I have seen and heard about such incidents. (They’ve also been in the news over the years.)
I have seen co-workers that won’t speak to someone designated as a SCAB years before, even if it is required as part of their job. I’ve seen people reduced to tears over their name being posted (anonymously) as a SCAB. I wasn’t there for the time union pickets scattered nails on the road to keep workers (even non-union) from crossing the picket line, but I knew people who were required to report (salaried) that got flat tires.
I agree that in the history of unionization companies have done a lot of bad things, but that doesn’t mean the unions and/or their members/supporters have been saints.
I HAVE seen cases where the union overpromised what they could deliver in a campaign. I HAVE seen a man’s job saved by the union even though he had smuggled a mattress into an air duct and spent most of his shift there.
Part of the problem with this discussion seems to be the COMPANIES ARE EVIL/UNIONS ARE EVIL dichotomy. Neither one is always EVIL, neither one is all good. Neither one is always acting in the interest of the individual worker. (See my first post where I mention the workers with seniority draining the SUB fund voluntarily so there was nothing left for those actually laid off.)
To me the right of a secret ballot protects the rights OF THE INDIVIDUAL WORKER, not either of the corporate entities.
Following is one of those cite thingies folks around here seem so fond of:
http://thegspot.typepad.com/blog/2008/07/tom-geoghegan-m.html
A brief intro into Tom G. and his work.
“Amend the Civil Rights Act to prevent discrimination “on the basis of union membership”?
I agree with this simple and effective policy to “level the playing field”, a goal advocated by most commenters here who pretty much agree the playing field is currently tilted way in favor of employors.
If you want to level the playing field, legalize and institutionalize the sympathy strike, repeal Taft-Hartley.
Until then, capital f*cks over labor and that’s the way it’s going to be.
United we stand, that’s always the fear of corporatists and their lesser-paid sycophants.
“That’s the very reason I left a job i’d held for 5 years and struck out on my own . . .”
We can assume (or at least hope) that you either succeeded or managed to avoid catastrophic failure. Of course, entrepreneurship is a very, very tricky business – while estimates seem to vary (and there are differences across various sectors), we can toss out, as a ballpark figure, a four year survival rate for new small businesses of slightly <50%, dropping to about a third by seven years. (source). So in the rather short run, ‘striking out on one’s own’ is a gamble with slightly worse odds than wagering one’s future on a coin toss. Additionally, one might assume that we’re talking about significant self-selection going on, with some percentage correctly judging themselves to be above average in whatever skills – drive, experience, connections, intelligence, education, ~ frontal lobe function – would at least give them a chance, with luck, to make a reasonable go of it. (Not even getting into how the criterion here isn’t just non-failure, but doing better than one’s previous employment.)
“ Political action is not the best way forward. Finding another job is the best way forward.”
And surely in some cases this is, on an individual level, true. And in many cases it really obviously isn’t – and then there are the folks in the first group who lack the knowledge, skill, or judgement to recognize the opportunity, for an effective no. So the question becomes, should we base a major component of our economic system on the (atypical) experience of an individual blessed with some happy mix of innate potentials, fortunate life experiences & social matrix, and unpredictable opportunities, in a complex mosaic of fate and chance? Or should we consider overall reality, including both everybody’s else’s hope that by working hard they might make a relatively decent living with reasonable dignity, and the fact that a consumer-based democracy is doubly in need of a large, stable middle class?
Or, concretely: Mrs. S. is an elementary school teacher, a rather good one to the degree we can measure such things. She’s very much an 110 – make that 120- percenter. Some of this goes towards trainings and curriculum development and etc., and it’s possible that if that was her true passion, it just might make sense to try striking out as a ed. consultant. But it’s not; elementary teaching is. Should she aim for precious special snowflake status when it comes to earning-power; does this make sense given how opportunities are currently structured? (Perhaps she could join one of the bands of wandering teachers that stop in isolated villages to barter lessons for wrinkly turnips – I mean, if we might be ignoring actual reality, we could at least get some kickass little blue men in the bargain . . . ). To be fair, once or twice, in badly dysfunctional situations, she desperately resorted to raw individual bargaining power with mild success; necessary, imo, because idiosyncratic local conditions limit union action, & mildly successful because between the small staff, enormous recruitment/retention issues, and, ie, the year she had all but a few of the kids reach proficient or better, flipping the school – and iirc, district – averages, they were willing to go an extra couple millimeters to hang on to her. But all the atypicalness that made that both necessary and at all possible aside, note that this itself is atypical, a rare one or two time thing. Thanks to the union, there isn’t a potential need to go nuclear on every bloody, exhausting little issue (or to keep one’s powder dry and suck up endless no-prep days, lost lunches, countless petty abuses, etc.); there’s – despite aforementioned limitations – a contract to point to and union officials to get one’s back (and know the fine details), so administrators aren’t going to dump 45 kids into a classroom; finally, there’s no need to individually navigate the madness-inducing maze of health and other benefits (at, one would add, a potentially immense disadvantage), along with the ability to earn a reasonably middle-class salary. Etc. (And remember, this is a specific example that one might think would be a pretty-good-case scenario for strict specialsnowflakeness.
Coal miners should change industries.
Well, clearly, that solves that.
Who is going to hire, either as an employee or as a contractor, all of the people who currently work mines, are home health aides, hotel maids, work in cafeterias, mow lawns, pick fruit, or nursing home attendants?
Etc.
Do they all hang out their shingle as independent contractors in their former fields?
If not, what industry do they change to?
How do they acquire whatever skills they might need to make that change?
How do they afford health care for themselves and their families when they embark on this bold new adventure?
Not everyone is an entrepreneur. The market for goods and services can only support so many entrepreneurs.
At some point, somebody has to make the damned donuts. Somebody has to empty the trash, mop the floor, drive the truck, pick the apple, and wipe the nursing home patient’s behind.
There are some industries where no reasonable substitute exists, or can exist, for hands-on labor.
It’s wonderful that you’ve found a way to break out of plain old working for a wage. That doesn’t work for everyone. If for no other reason than most people who end up starting their own thing have to work for somebody else first to acquire the capital to do so.
Absent something like a union, those folks operate at a disadvantage. There is no good reason on earth why they should not organize themselves to improve their bargaining position.
Personally, I don’t really give a damn whether we go with a card check system or a secret ballot one. Each one obviously has its advantages and its flaws. Historically, our own national elections have operated more or less effectively using both.
The bottom line is that working people — people who work for a wage — have damned few advantages. If you’ve found a better way, great, but it’s not practical for everyone to quit their day job. The folks who do hands-on labor deserve the right to make the best deal they can for themselves.
Thanks –
And what russell said back around 9:30ish, too.
Anyway – personally, I’d kinda like to see unionization as the automatic default setting in a reasonably wide range of circumstances, with the option of voting for a non-union shop. But that aside, the way I’m looking at card check – well, I’m assuming we’re going to keep a recognizably similar political/ideological situation for a while re: labor issues. That is, relatively limited support at best, and powerful interests that simply don’t accept unions as legitimate ( not just workaday structural opposition, but Walmartism) and are well-represented in and by the GOP. Who, sooner or later will be right back in power (or at least that faction will regain full influence with whoever). So we need something that can function even if rules & regulations are being ignored or gutted or corrupted or etc. – at least up to the point anything’s going to reliably work under such circumstances. Card check seems like one of the least of such things.
Of course, that assumption might be completely off, but . . ..
“Anyway – personally, I’d kinda like to see unionization as the automatic default setting in a reasonably wide range of circumstances, with the option of voting for a non-union shop.”
The problem with this is how can you ‘default’ to a union? Which union?
Exactly. So why wouldn’t that person recognize that it’s best shot at fair compensation is to be a free agent cleaning hotel rooms as a subcontractor?
That sound you hear is the sound of a million hotel maids smacking their heads with their palms. “Why didn’t *I* think of that!”
“Anyway – personally, I’d kinda like to see unionization as the automatic default setting in a reasonably wide range of circumstances, with the option of voting for a non-union shop.
Yes. Exactly. And I think this is one of the lenses you have to look at card check through.
The anti-union folks would obviously prefer that the initial union formation process in a workplace involve some kind of Socratically pure election. (Or at to imagine that’s how it should work,)
But in real life, that’s just really not possible. And there’s no fundamental philosophical reason the initial union formation process needs to be an “election” of any kind. Majority sign-up means a majority of workers say they want a union. So form one. Once you, you have real elections for officers, you have a constitution. There’s nothing about the union that’s going to automatically bankrupt a company – it’s up to everyone to negotiate a reasonable contract.
Then, once everyone’s seen it in action, it’s always possible for workers to decide to disband it.
Or they can just leave and find a new job – after all, that is *usually* what a right-winger would say, no?
“Yes. Exactly. And I think this is one of the lenses you have to look at card check through.”
Right, I do understand that because you really really want unions that you are willing to abandon normal procedural protections. And the fact that I want normal procedural protections means that calling me anti-union is apparently a great defense.
You don’t accept that as a good argument in the ‘you want procedural protections therefore you must be pro-terrorist’ discussion and I’m not accepting it here.
I really would like one of the pro-card check people here to explain what they think secret ballot is good for, why we normally use it, and why all these arguments about company wrong doing mean that we have to screw the worker out of the protection.
It seems to me that you are doing exactly what you accuse the company of doing–seeing the worker and his desires as merely in the way of what your ultimate aims are.
You allegedly are doing it for his own good. Funny how you have to strip away his protections to do it.
“Or they can just leave and find a new job – after all, that is *usually* what a right-winger would say, no?”
You seem to think this is funny. But perhaps it is just as revealing of your real attitude toward the worker: screw him unless he does what I want.
Is that the left-wing thing?
Right, I do understand that because you really really want unions that you are willing to abandon normal procedural protections. And the fact that I want normal procedural protections means that calling me anti-union is apparently a great defense.
I don’t really accept that there is any such thing as “normal procedural protections” in this case.
For an election, with two competing candidates for Senate or what have you, a secret ballot is a perfectly reasonable idea. But it would be a stupid way to make every decision in, say, a staff meeting. “Teh Secret Ballot” is not the holy grail of democratic decision making, or “procedural protections”.
Your view is, I think it’s fair to say, that non-union is the default state, and it should therefore be relatively difficult to move to a unionized state. So you’re coming at this from the perspective that union formation is an “election”, with all of the “protections” that entails. And that’s fine, but it’s not at all self evident that this is the way it should be.
We could also decide that unions should be very easy to form, with democratic decision making by workers (including the decision to dissolve the union) taking place within the framework of the union once it’s formed.
“Or they can just leave and find a new job – after all, that is *usually* what a right-winger would say, no?”
You seem to think this is funny. But perhaps it is just as revealing of your real attitude toward the worker: screw him unless he does what I want.
Is that the left-wing thing?
The left-wing thing is that unions and the better power dynamic they enable are good for workers, good for the middle class, and good for the country.
The above was vaguely directed in the direction of Dave, and his comments about hotel workers somehow striking out on their own as “subcontractors”.
Ok, lets examine unions as the non-default position.
It sounds nice, like “lights off at night” might be the default position for an unoccupied building at night compared to “lights on at night” if we were talking about saving electricity.
The problem is that there isn’t such a thing as a lower case non-specific ‘union’ to which you can default.
You are talking about forcing workers in a workplace to submit by default to a specific union’s political structure and bargaining units. You are talking about forcing workers to submit by default to a specific union’s baggage and poor leadership. You are talking about forcing workers to submit by default to a specific union’s power hierarchy and decision making.
Now you don’t identify WHICH union you are forcing them to deal with by default because you haven’t thought that far ahead. I presume you have some notions of a ‘good union’ that you want to default to.
But the whole discussion here is about workers choosing to select a particular union. Not a non-specific ‘union’. Something specific like the United Auto Workers, or the Teamsters.
In THAT selection process, you want to take away secret ballot.
In practice, there aren’t all that many unions to choose from and it’s probably not an issue most of the time.
But it’d be pretty easy to just allow multiple unions to be formed (each with a majority signup process), then either have a a more detailed procedure to select which one, or work out a cooperative arrangement to share dues, let workers choose which union they prefer, bargain jointly, etc.
“In practice, there aren’t all that many unions to choose from and it’s probably not an issue most of the time.”
I’m afraid you fell into my trap. 😉
You’re quite right.
So the choice then is: “Do I want to be bound to the Teamsters, or not?”
And that choice is the choice you don’t want to be secret ballot.
Umm. Yes. I think that’s more or less an accurate statement of my position.
So…?
“Do I want to be bound to the Teamsters, or not?”
Probably neither here nor there, but this is fairly curious phrasing.
Glad you are willing to admit it.
So your scheme is to protect the Teamsters, not the workers who may or may not want the Teamsters.
That is a perfectly coherent position if you want it.
No. That doesn’t make any sense.
The “scheme” is to allow workers to join a union (the Teamsters, the Machinists, SEIU, a combination, whatever) by signing up a majority who wish to do so.
As I said, in most cases the choice of which union to affiliate with is probably pretty obvious based on the company or the type of work being done – maybe one or two choices. And if someone would prefer a different union, it would be trivial to allow more than one union to be formed, and then resolve any conflict.
I fail to see how any of that is “protecting” the Teamsters.
‘Signing up’ and ‘wishing to do so’ are separate categories, which is the whole point.
Huh?
@jack lecou:
What’s confusing you is Sebastian’s assumption, which you may not share, that the Teamsters are a union in which intimidation plays a big role. He appears to believe that in an era of card check that they would sweep all before them because thugs would intimidate workers into signing Teamster cards.
Facts that might cloud the handy Teamsters = thug union stereotype include he actual recent history of the Teamsters union, the range of degree of internal democracy among actually existing unions, which unions organize which workplaces, how that’s negotiated among unions, etc.
Nell-
That does cast some light on the recent exchange. The focus on specific unions is otherwise something of a non-sequitur.
I’m still trying to give him the benefit of the doubt though. His language really suggests to me that his background assumptions include the idea that unions are predators or parasites, with workers and employers their hapless victims.
I have seen co-workers that won’t speak to someone designated as a SCAB years before, even if it is required as part of their job. I’ve seen people reduced to tears over their name being posted (anonymously) as a SCAB.
dnfree,
That’s just my point – co-workers not talking to you, oh heavens that’s just so awful and wrong and evil. But your employer fires you for cause, with no unemployment benefits and no notice. Eh no biggie, toughen up, serf!
“He appears to believe that in an era of card check that they would sweep all before them because thugs would intimidate workers into signing Teamster cards.”
The *very* recent era of unions hasn’t had much violence, but one could argue that it is because of worries about the Bush administration anti-union focus.
But step back just to the 1990s and you can find union violence including murder around organizing and strikes.
You are essentially in the position of the newspaper headlines which always state confusedly: “Crime down but prison population up” as if that created an inexplicable mystery.
Fledermaus: “That’s just my point – co-workers not talking to you, oh heavens that’s just so awful and wrong and evil. But your employer fires you for cause, with no unemployment benefits and no notice. Eh no biggie, toughen up, serf!”
I presume you are against hostile work environment lawsuits, or do you reserve this opinion ONLY for people who don’t like their union?
Jack, “His language really suggests to me that his background assumptions include the idea that unions are predators or parasites, with workers and employers their hapless victims.”
Human institutions often abuse on individuals who disagree with them. That is true of unions, employers, clubs, gangs, and churches.
I prefer setting up political structures which make it easy to avoid the institutions who are likely to abuse you. Check card is bad because it sets up a forced association (that is the nature of unions in the workplace) and makes it easy to either A) identify those who disagree with you or B) force them to VOTE in your favor in order to avoid being identified.
In an emotional situation like that which almost always surrounds a contested union organization drive (if it isn’t contested they don’t care about secret ballot as they will easily win) card check sets up an employee for abuse if he doesn’t sign. That abuse may range from social shunning (which would be decried by you if the shunning was based on say being Jewish or a woman or gay) to sabotage, to murder. The entire range has been seen as recently as 10 years ago.
All of the things complained about thus far can be addressed through means other than purposely subjecting a workers to the potential for abuse.
I’m not at all suggesting that unions are unique in their desire to punish and abuse dissenters. I’ve seen it in churches and companies and political parties and informal clubs. I’m saying that there is no reason to make it so easy in an already emotionally charged situation.
“That’s just my point – co-workers not talking to you, oh heavens that’s just so awful and wrong and evil. But your employer fires you for cause, with no unemployment benefits and no notice.”
I just don’t understand this point of view.
Problem: Companies can hurt workers unfairly.
Solution: Make it easier for other organizations to hurt workers unfairly???
I prefer setting up political structures which make it easy to avoid the institutions who are likely to abuse you. Check card is bad because it sets up a forced association (that is the nature of unions in the workplace) and makes it easy to either A) identify those who disagree with you or B) force them to VOTE in your favor in order to avoid being identified.
In an emotional situation like that which almost always surrounds a contested union organization drive (if it isn’t contested they don’t care about secret ballot as they will easily win) card check sets up an employee for abuse if he doesn’t sign. That abuse may range from social shunning (which would be decried by you if the shunning was based on say being Jewish or a woman or gay) to sabotage, to murder. The entire range has been seen as recently as 10 years ago.
…
I’m not at all suggesting that unions are unique in their desire to punish and abuse dissenters. I’ve seen it in churches and companies and political parties and informal clubs. I’m saying that there is no reason to make it so easy in an already emotionally charged situation.
But that argument has to be predicated on the idea that unionization is not (on average) going to make workers much better off. That’s an assumption that I don’t really see being supported by the facts.
If unionization DOES make workers better off, it’s an issue of tradeoffs. Violence or physical threats are obviously never excusable, but even at their worst they’re relatively rare. And they’re much more easily discoverable and prosecutable than punitive firings, so I don’t think they’re inevitable. (Also, I’m guessing the murders and incidents of violence have a little more story behind them then just somebody politely declining to sign the card when an organizer knocks on the door…)
Stuff along the lines of silent treatment for “scabs” don’t bother me that much. For one, because these individuals have in fact committed a “crime” against their coworkers (which is not analogous to a situation with racists or what have you).
For another, in a unionization drive, either a majority of workers are “truly” pro, or a majority are against. If the former, the union will be formed and the winners are unlikely to feel much need to ostracize or abuse the losers. If the latter, the supposed victims are in the majority.
If you look at actual union locals, there’s obviously plenty of grumpiness about things like dues increases or percieved inattention from HQ, and, occasionally, fights over things like officer positions, contract details, or constitutional amendments. What you DON’T see much of are strong movements to disband the union and lose all the contract and benefits, or any general impulse to stick it to the grouchy minority who would really rather not have the union.
I’d also note that in many ways the motives for abuse could go down in an era of strengthened labor. For example, strong national unions with deep strike funds would help keep any individual workers from needing to risk crossing a picket line. More widespread unionization also would expose more people to the benefits, and immunize them against many of the arguments from businesses.
All of the things complained about thus far can be addressed through means other than purposely subjecting a workers to the potential for abuse.
This is obviously the point under contention.
I’d also note that majority sign up is already the norm in a variety of places (including at major employers like AT&T), and seems to work very smoothly.
The vicious conflict you’re envisioning just isn’t widespread enough to justify the supposed necessity of “secret ballots”.
I just don’t understand this point of view.
Problem: Companies can hurt workers unfairly.
Solution: Make it easier for other organizations to hurt workers unfairly???
The argument is that there is a difference of quantity, not of kind. All hurt is not equal.
“But that argument has to be predicated on the idea that unionization is not (on average) going to make workers much better off. That’s an assumption that I don’t really see being supported by the facts.”
That assumes that it is impossible to form a union if you have a secret ballot, but not if you have them sign cards.
Why are they signing cards but not voting for the union?
“(Also, I’m guessing the murders and incidents of violence have a little more story behind them then just somebody politely declining to sign the card when an organizer knocks on the door…)”
You don’t have to guess, you can read. I linked some cases. And frankly I find this nudge and wink a little disturbing.
“Stuff along the lines of silent treatment for “scabs” don’t bother me that much. For one, because these individuals have in fact committed a “crime” against their coworkers (which is not analogous to a situation with racists or what have you).”
Nice. Perhaps you want card check BECAUSE it allows hurt to be visited upon workers who don’t like the union.
Do other liberal readers agree with this?
“I’d also note that in many ways the motives for abuse could go down in an era of strengthened labor. For example, strong national unions with deep strike funds would help keep any individual workers from needing to risk crossing a picket line. More widespread unionization also would expose more people to the benefits, and immunize them against many of the arguments from businesses.”
That is an interesting claim. It seems precisely opposite real history in the United States. Union violence down in 2000s higher in 1990s and higher still in the 1980s. Is it your contention that unions are stronger now than they were in 1980?
“For another, in a unionization drive, either a majority of workers are “truly” pro, or a majority are against. If the former, the union will be formed and the winners are unlikely to feel much need to ostracize or abuse the losers. If the latter, the supposed victims are in the majority.”
“The vicious conflict you’re envisioning just isn’t widespread enough to justify the supposed necessity of “secret ballots”.
If this were really true, they will win a secret ballot.
The problem I have with a huge number of your arguments is that if they were really true, the union would win in a secret ballot.
Why are you continually providing arguments which are either false, or which prove that card check shouldn’t be necessary?
That assumes that it is impossible to form a union if you have a secret ballot, but not if you have them sign cards.
Why are they signing cards but not voting for the union?
No, not impossible, just far more difficult. If unions are desirable, they should be easy to form. Arguments against ease of formation are predicated on the idea that they are either undesirable, or at least less desirable than necessary to balance the side effects of the formation mechanism.
I’d also note here that the lack of majority sign up does not eliminate nastiness, so the incremental difference in nastiness, if any, is strictly marginal – you can’t use ALL incidence of union-formation related violence as arguments against majority signup.
Nice. Perhaps you want card check BECAUSE it allows hurt to be visited upon workers who don’t like the union.
Scabs are not workers who merely passively “don’t like” the union. Scabs are actively undermining the welfare of their fellows, and this is categorically different from a situation where one group punishes another for merely being different. And I’d prefer suffering not be visited up anyone, even social shunning, I’m just hard-pressed to view this as any kind of particularly egregious human rights violation. Certainly not one equivalent to punitive firing…
You don’t have to guess, you can read. I linked some cases. And frankly I find this nudge and wink a little disturbing.
There is no nudge nudge here, Mr. Mindreader. And I don’t really appreciate your implication. I’m just pointing out that union fights can be nasty – something that a lack of majority sign-up obviously can’t solve. If you’d like to point cases that are related to majority sign up particularly, be my guest.
That is an interesting claim. It seems precisely opposite real history in the United States. Union violence down in 2000s higher in 1990s and higher still in the 1980s. Is it your contention that unions are stronger now than they were in 1980?
I think the union movement in the 80’s was weak as well, though possibly in different ways. I’d be more interested in a comparison with countries with genuinely strong labor movements.
If this were really true, they will win a secret ballot.
The problem I have with a huge number of your arguments is that if they were really true, the union would win in a secret ballot.
This is obviously not true. In any work setting where a unionization drive might be successful, there’s at least SOME workers who feel they are being treated unfairly. There will also be some who are ambivalent, and some who feel well treated. I’d hazard to say that if there are SOME workers who feel mistreated, MOST workers probably feel at least somewhat mistreated, at least if they thought about it.
But even if MOST workers feel mistreated, and are pro-union in the abstract, there’s a large block that’ll be weaker, and fearful of how the employer might react. That’s the block employers seek to split off with intimidation, punishment, and lies. The fact that that those tactics often work isn’t actually evidence that the workers were anti union…
I’m having visions of Sebastian, like, sitting in his office, and a bunch of his colleagues asking where he wants to go to lunch, and him being all like SECRET BALLOT GUYS WHY DO YOU HATE DEMOCRACY???
Do votes at board of directors meetings occur by secret ballot? If not, why is Sebastian not out fighting this horrible injustice?
Votes for representatives of the shareholders (which is to say the board of directors) are almost never traceable back to the shareholders.
You are confusing the votes of a deliberative body (the board) with votes to elect the deliberative body.
It is like arguing that votes are disclosed IN the Senate as an argument against votes FOR Senators.
Whoops dropped a crucial word. It is like arguing that votes are disclosed IN the Senate as an argument against secret ballot in votes FOR Senators.
I’d point out that in fact the magical “secret ballot” is routinely violated in Senate elections.
In Oregon, for example, all votes are by mail-in ballot. That means that if George McMoneybags, or Johnny Wiseguy wants to run for Senator, he can send someone to my house to offer $500 or a pair of broken legs, respectively, if I fill out my ballot in their presence and seal it up. But that sort of thing is illegal, and Oregon has decided that the benefits of its system outweigh the risk of it happening.
jack lecou: I think the union movement in the 80’s was weak as well, though possibly in different ways. I’d be more interested in a comparison with countries with genuinely strong labor movements.
As I think I noted somewhere upthread, where you get violence committed by union members on union-related issues in the UK, it seems to be strongly correlated to trades where, without a strong union enforcing safety measures, workers tend to get killed or maimed. A lot. Miners; steelworkers; the shipbuilding unions. Sebastian mentioned the Teamsters – isn’t that a truck drivers’ union? Similiar thing.
When a person knows their life is on the line if their employer doesn’t enforce the safety regulations rigorously, and when they see their union as their safeguard against their employer for their lives – not “just” their wages, but their health, wellbeing, and their life – then you can get, and did get in the coal mining communities in the UK until Thatcher broke the NUM and destroyed the coalmining industry in the 1980s, a very strong sense of comradeship with your fellow workers/union members, and a very strong sense that people who take advantage of the union’s benefits without being willing to join the union, are betraying their fellow workers. For their lives. I’m going by what I’ve read and what I’ve heard, not from first-hand or even direct second-hand experience. This doesn’t justify violence, but I am prepared to bet that the number of workers killed each year by “industrial accident” in any of the industries whose unions Sebastian named, exceeds the total number of union-related murders that Sebastian has referenced. That is, in any one industry, more people have died because of their job in any one year than the total number Sebastian can find of people killed by union workers.
But remember, it’s only class warfare when the workers fight back: it’s never called class warfare when ordinary working people get killed because their employers want higher profits.
Hmmm. If there had been some sort of historic reversal or transformation of US labor policy in the early 1980s then that might explain it. Heck it might even have something to do with Iron Maggie backing down in ’81 and standing firm in ’84.
But since nothing like that happened, this is clearly just one of those mysteries of nature.
Sebastian, I generally agree with others here that union violence, deplorable tho it is, is not as big a problem as the sweatshop and coalmine labor conditions that were the norm in the West before unions, and is the norm in the Third World and our own Marianas Islands, and still turns up in our mainland in non-unionized industries such as slaughterhouses, agriculture, prostitution, etc. And I have zero sympathy for scabs who block a union or cross picket lines and then whine because their friends shun them. They took bread out of those friends’ children’s mouths, or worse, they can put up with social disapproval.
The union-as-default position also deserves more consideration than you’re giving it. It need not be the Teamsters. Forex, a business could be required, when it hires its 50th non-management employee, to hold an election for union leadership, give the union members a standardized rulebook with built-in amendment procedures, and the fledgling union could then take bids from national unions and join whichever one it wanted — or none at all. A union can be a one-company entity, you know. They could even decide to disband themselves, though I doubt many would.
d3dave’s independent-contractor-maid concept is ironic. One of the big issues for unions in the last 20 years is that companies began to force their janitorial employees into “independent contractor” status precisely so they could treat them worse. These “independent contractors,” you see, were not covered by laws protecting employees — laws that were either obtained by unions or instituted to match reforms in unionized industries.
d3dave also expresses doubt that unions could have “held back the tide” of competition with cheap outside labor. Yet somehow, our executives, who have bargaining power, manage to keep forcing better salaries out of our companies, despite all the competition. And had unions been stronger, they might have gotten meaningful labor protections put into NAFTA and other free-trade pacts. As it was, they tried, but failed. Had they succeeded, our own workers and other countries’ workers might have been a lot better off today.
Radish, I can never tell if you are being sarcastic. But it seems as if unions have gotten weaker over the past 30 years (at least lots of progressives say that all the time). Union violence in the US appears to be down over the same time period, though I’m not sure if we have definitive numbers somewhere. That correlation may not have a causation inside it, but it might.
Jack, I see now that you arguing that regular elections in the United States aren’t secret ballot. I won’t make the mistake of thinking you are arguing in good faith again. My fault for wasting time on the posts with you.
“Sebastian, I generally agree with others here that union violence, deplorable tho it is, is not as big a problem as the sweatshop and coalmine labor conditions that were the norm in the West before unions, and is the norm in the Third World and our own Marianas Islands, and still turns up in our mainland in non-unionized industries such as slaughterhouses, agriculture, prostitution, etc.”
Again, arguing that ‘unions’ are a good thing in that way is like arguing that ‘security’ is a good thing. It doesn’t justify all manner of destroying basic normal procedures.
“And I have zero sympathy for scabs who block a union or cross picket lines and then whine because their friends shun them. They took bread out of those friends’ children’s mouths, or worse, they can put up with social disapproval.”
Ahh so even blocking a union (which implies a majority against the guild) is deserving of contempt (and we should enable them to be publically identified so they have to brave more than just ‘disapproval’.
It is sounding a lot like being able to identify exactly how people voted is the whole point…
But step back just to the 1990s and you can find union violence including murder around organizing and strikes.
Go back to the 1890’s and you’ll find open warfare.
A brief excerpt from Kasdan’s “Grand Canyon”:
The reason we have unions at all is because, absent unions, labor is the prey of management and capital. It sucks that that is true, it really does.
But it’s freaking true. And it ain’t labor that makes it true.
I actually have mixed feelings about unions. They definitely have their warts.
But no unions, and wage labor eats shit.
No gun, no respect. That’s why they bring the gun. Historically, that’s been literal, because labor has, in turn, faced literal guns. Lately, not so much, but it’s still necessary to bring a relative hard-assed attitude to the table if you want to get anyone’s attention.
Eliminate the need for unions and they’ll go away. Short of that, we’re going to live with them, like we live with every other less-than-optimal solution to real life problems.
Card check is an attempt at a solution to a problem. The problem is the number of impediments that corporate management puts in the way of unionization.
Unions, in turn, are an attempt at a solution to a problem. That problem is the reluctance of management and capital investors to share the wealth created by the enterprises that all three groups — capital, management, and labor — contribute to.
I’m not making this stuff up, it’s a plain matter of fact.
Don’t like the solution? Remove the problem, and it won’t be an issue.
Thanks –
Sebastian, I was indeed being sarcastic. Reagan firing PATCO. Dotson at NLRB. It was in the papers and everything.
Reagan openly, suddenly, and dramatically reversed the tradition of at-least-lukewarm protections for labor. The hypothesis is that this caused union members to feel threatened, and resulted in a rise in violence, which has since decayed as people adjusted.
Jack, I see now that you arguing that regular elections in the United States aren’t secret ballot. I won’t make the mistake of thinking you are arguing in good faith again. My fault for wasting time on the posts with you.
Do you have some actual fact that contradicts my description of Oregon’s elections? I’d be happy to hear it.
“The hypothesis is that this caused union members to feel threatened, and resulted in a rise in violence, which has since decayed as people adjusted.”
So your hypothesis is what about a new resurgent round of union activity over the next few years? How do you think dissenters will be treated by unions if they see a long denied opportunity potentially thwarted?
You are confusing the votes of a deliberative body (the board) with votes to elect the deliberative body.
No, I am making fun of you.
Again, arguing that ‘unions’ are a good thing in that way is like arguing that ‘security’ is a good thing. It doesn’t justify all manner of destroying basic normal procedures.
You’ve yet to firmly establish that secret ballots should, in fact, be “basic normal procedures” vis a vis forming unions.
Always effective and persuasive, that.
Jack, I see now that you arguing that regular elections in the United States aren’t secret ballot. I won’t make the mistake of thinking you are arguing in good faith again. My fault for wasting time on the posts with you.
Do you have some actual fact that contradicts my description of Oregon’s elections? I’d be happy to hear it.
Anything?
You’ve accused me of arguing in bad faith. Care to actually back that up?
“You are confusing the votes of a deliberative body (the board) with votes to elect the deliberative body.
No, I am making fun of you.”
Well, there is nothing like a good joke. And that, my dear, was nothing like a good joke.
My bad for forgetting about you, Phil.
And jack, you are taking a secret ballot election and arguing that it isn’t a secret ballot election based on…. umm I would try to figure it out except I’m pretty sure you’re just making fun of me too.
Jesus, why do I take people as arguing in good faith around here! It wastes time and just irritates the crap out of me.
Maybe because most of them are?
Honestly, I’m baffled by your reaction.
In what way do you think I’m incorrect about the way Oregon’s mail-in system weakens the secret ballot? It’s just too outrageous to believe? I don’t get it.
Slarti: Always effective and persuasive, that.
*shrug* I’m not seeing any evidence, throughout this thread, that Sebastian is open to persuasion or that he’s willing to think about the ideas presented.
I admit the broken-thread format makes it difficult to be sure, but I don’t think Sebastian even responded to my asking him, early on, if he objects to card check, what method would he support so that employees can safely organize unions without employers firing them or harassing them or otherwise trying to prevent their employees unionizing?
And jack, you are taking a secret ballot election and arguing that it isn’t a secret ballot election based on…. umm I would try to figure it out except I’m pretty sure you’re just making fun of me too.
Based on the fact that key secret ballot provisions are substantially weakened.
Obviously the ballot is still nominally secret, there’s a double envelope and everything, and the secretary of state doesn’t keep a list of names and votes or anything.
But, as I pointed out, it’s entirely possible for votes to be influenced by intimidation or bribery and verified.
The point is that “the secret ballot” is not some sacred thing that needs to be fetishized. In fact, it’s not even an either/or quantity. It exists on a continuum: Oregon is less secret than DC is less secret than filling out your ballot in a booth with a curtain.
And while card check is less secret than any of them, that’s not actually an argument.
You actually have to make a case against it: You have to tell us why union formation needs to be an “election” at all. Why the secret ballot needs to apply. Why an increased risk of violence not only would exist, but would also actually outweigh the benefits of increased unionization. Or suggest alternative measures which would actually solve the problems with the current system as well as majority sign up would. Etc.
Thanks for sharing. Probably, Sebastian’s just drinking the Kool-Aid, or eating the cookies, or whatever other euphemism you can come up with for mindless agreement with teh evil right-wing noise machine. Because no rightly thinking person could possibly hold opinions that disagree with yours.
Sebastian: How do you think dissenters will be treated by unions if they see a long denied opportunity potentially thwarted?
Surely a good number of people reading and commenting here have at some point or other had the experience of persuading people one-on-one — fundraising, or election campaigning, or signature-gathering for a cause?
If you have, you’ve probably learned that an important skill in the process is not wasting much time or energy with the unpersuadables.
The goal in a card-check campaign, or in a campaign leading up to a secret-ballot election, is to get 51% of the employees voting your way. In both methods, just as in political elections and board meeting votes, you start with the group that are most committed, who need no persuasion, and involve them in the process of persuading those who lean your way but haven’t committed, then moving as necessary to persuade those who are undecided.
There’s no percentage at all in being ugly or intimidating to people who aren’t going to vote for the union. People who oppose unions assume that workers would only choose unions because they’re under negative pressure — because it’s the only way they would.
Thanks for sharing. Probably, Sebastian’s just drinking the Kool-Aid, or eating the cookies, or whatever other euphemism you can come up with for mindless agreement with teh evil right-wing noise machine. Because no rightly thinking person could possibly hold opinions that disagree with yours.
I think I understand Sebastian’s position well enough, and I can see where reasonable people could disagree – although I’m not sure Sebastian’s necessarily made a very good case.
What I don’t see is any evidence that he’s really made an effort to understand the arguments from the other side. (And he has in fact intimated a couple times that we are evil, and that the “real” purpose of card check is an elaborate scheme to do violence to people who oppose unions.)
“There’s no percentage at all in being ugly or intimidating to people who aren’t going to vote for the union.”
That isn’t true if you can be ugly and intimidating to people to get them to vote for the union. Now, only works if you can verify that they are actually voting for the union. You can with card check. You can’t with secret ballot.
And that is precisely why secret ballot helps to minimize the effectiveness and therefore the likelyhood of intimidation, while card check increases the effectiveness and therefore the likelyhood of intimidation.
Again, if it is just about persuading, why are they so worried about stopping people from voting in secret? If it is just about persuading, they will do their job and the worker will vote for them in secret.
Why is it so necessary that the union representative gets to know for certain exactly which workers did not vote for the union?
jack, I don’t see it so much that Sebastian is posing anyone as evil, so much as that he’s rejecting your [apparent] default assumption of goodness.
In any event, it’s probably more useful to respond to Sebastian’s actual statements than it is to try and psychoanalyze him.
Jack, if that remains your impression I suspect you just aren’t reading what I’m writing. But to clarify for other readers, my comment of yesterday (5:02):
That is my view on the *normal* state of how human institutions treat people who don’t agree with them. That is not a comment on unions particularly except so much as they are human institutions. So I am not saying that ‘you’ in the sense of unions or unions supporters are evil. If claimed I was saying that ‘we’ in the sense of human beings are evil you would at least be in the ballpark, but it still would be an unfair simplification.
Slarti-
I think statements like this,
Slarti, if my goal were to be effective or persuasive, I suppose I might feel properly chastened. I feel, though, that Sebastian is not in much of a position to be persuaded of anything at all re: unions, thus I get my LOLs where I can.
Sorry it bothered you enough to comment on it, though.
I understand your view of human nature.
And yes, institutions of all kinds can do evil.
Making policy is largely a matter of trying to find a set of institutions that will do the least evil.
In this case, we are trying to remedy an imbalance of power between employers and workers.
The current system allows that imbalance to persist DURING long, bitter election process, to the employers great advantage. The proposed reform is to replace the election with a simple majority sign up procedure, after which democratic governance would take place within a union on more equal footing.
It’s true that the reformed system has potential for abuse, but it’s also true that the current system is widely abused, and causes harm.
Pointing out the possibility of a marginal difference in the potential for intimidation is, at best, only half the argument.
I’ve repeatedly asked some very specific questions which haven’t been even mildly addressed by any of the supporters of card check.
What precisely is so awful about having a secret ballot that it has to be removed?
What precisely is the worry that you have about companies influencing elections *that is solved* by eliminating secret ballot?
Note for example that Nell’s concerns about ‘spies’ telling the company what is going on isn’t helped by eliminating secret ballot. A ‘spy’ can inform on union organization tactics under card check as well.
The only thing I’ve heard that even tries to answer my question was that the election period takes too long (6-9 months) which allows the company too much time for unfair pressure. But that seems like something that can be remedied without card check. One could easily imagine shortening the period to a much more manageable one month. Or perhaps even a few weeks.
There has been talk about the unfairness of firing union organizers, but not a single word of how removing secret ballot stops the firing of union organizers in a way that can’t be dealt with by say shortening the organization time. (It is already illegal of course, but the objection is that companies ignore that law. If so, I want to know why you think removing secret ballot helps in THOSE cases).
My huge problem in this discussion is that the proponents of card check raise lots of naughty things that companies do, none of which are remedied by removing secret ballot. I’m willing to stipulate that some companies do nasty things to avoid unionization.
Not once have I seen how removing the secret ballot from WORKERS fixes that.
What precisely is so awful about having a secret ballot that it has to be removed?
What precisely is the worry that you have about companies influencing elections *that is solved* by eliminating secret ballot?
Note for example that Nell’s concerns about ‘spies’ telling the company what is going on isn’t helped by eliminating secret ballot. A ‘spy’ can inform on union organization tactics under card check as well.
There’s nothing wrong with a “secret ballot” per se. It’s just that it’s not necessary, and certainly can’t be looked at in isolation. Its benefits and costs have to be balanced against the alternatives.
An election involves a campaign period (no matter how short or long) in which the employer has an (unfair) ability to thwart workers’ desires for a union – an overwhelming advantage in terms of power, communications, and ability to intimidate.
Majority sign up is a less formal, less contentious process. It makes it easier for workers who want a union to form one, by requiring employers to recognize the union as soon as a majority have signed on. And the tens of thousands of workers who have organized with majority sign up report far less pressure from both employers and fellow workers.
“An election involves a campaign period (no matter how short or long) in which the employer has an (unfair) ability to thwart workers’ desires for a union – an overwhelming advantage in terms of power, communications, and ability to intimidate.”
This is all very general. Much of it isn’t illegal. Some of it probably shouldn’t even be discouraged. So if you are going to open up whole new areas of ability to intimidate and you are additionaly going to close down avenues of communication (card check doesn’t even really facilitate communicate among employees except as controlled by the not-ratified union) you are going to have to be more specific than “companies are powerful and I don’t like that”.
“Majority sign up is a less formal, less contentious process.”
Less formal? Certainly, but less formal isn’t always an advantage. What proper advantage to you believe you are getting out of less formal. The dangers I see of less formal are less oversight, more ability for intimidation, more ability to cheat, and less dissemination of information. The advantages are?
Less contentious? I suspect not. It just moves the contentious period from ‘surrounding an election’ to ‘always’. That might not be an improvement for workers.
“And the tens of thousands of workers who have organized with majority sign up report far less pressure from both employers and fellow workers.”
The are far more than a hundred million workers in the United States so that fact (if true, so far as I can see “less pressure from both employers and fellow workers” is rather speculative, especially since under current rules pure card check is only likely to occur when the situation is already less contentious) that a small fraction of 1 per cent of those went through card check isn’t impressive.
This is all very general. Much of it isn’t illegal. Some of it probably shouldn’t even be discouraged. So if you are going to open up whole new areas of ability to intimidate and you are additionaly going to close down avenues of communication (card check doesn’t even really facilitate communicate among employees except as controlled by the not-ratified union) you are going to have to be more specific than “companies are powerful and I don’t like that”.
Since you stipulate to the existence of employer abuses I’m assuming we don’t need to go into a great deal of detail on the various means at their disposal to influence the process. If you really want detail I’m sure we can get into it, but that seems like a distraction to me.
And as someone else pointed out, the employer may have a stake in the question of union formation, but there doesn’t seem to be any compelling reason to give them a strong influence on the workers’ decision here. To the extent that it’s both practical and compatible with the First Amendment, I think all efforts by employers to influence the process should be discouraged.
In neither case is there any mechanisms for facilitating communication AMONG employees, so I’m not sure how that’s relevant. Employees are as free to talk to each other about unions during a sign up process as any other time. If there were a group vocally opposed to the union formation, I concede that the organizers would have something of a head start over them. But again, this is about changing the defaults – make it easy to form a union, and once it’s formed, if people are receptive to a case against it and decide they made a mistake, it can be dissolved.
The bottom line is not that I don’t like it, it’s that companies are powerful and use that power to extract more than is fair from their workers. Workers deserve a fair chance to organize and push back.
It’s not really my department, but the general idea is that the spike in violence would have reflected individual attempts to reinstate a previously reliable social norm which was no longer in effect. It didn’t work, obviously. Since EFCA and card check reverse (or at least attempt to reverse) the advantage which employers currently have, we should expect them to trigger more dramatic forms of coercion (like violence) on the part of employers, and less dramatic forms of coercion on the part of unions. Basically the inverse of the 80s, and presumably with a similar decay curve.
So at a guess, union dissenters are more likely to be shunned and less likely to be beaten up, because shunning will be both easier and more effective under card check. On the flip side I would expect expansion of the “union avoidance” industry as a whole, particularly workplace security and surveillance. But considering that the entire global economy is about to be radically transformed anyway these aren’t the kind of predictions I’d want to bet on.
I don’t see anybody saying that it would. That initial secret ballot is just a baby that’s getting thrown out with the bathwater, because once the bathwater gets bad enough people give up on the baby. As a matter of public health if nothing else.
Heck, the card-check argument is just the right-to-work argument pointing the other way. Is it more traumatic to quit your job in order to avoid joining a union than it is to quit your job because it doesn’t pay enough? If you’re comfortable offering people the latter as a binary “take it or leave it” option, you can hardly complain that the unions have decided to use the same approach.
At the end of the day it’s what russell says. If you don’t want people to form unions then you have to make sure they won’t get screwed as individuals.
Less contentious? I suspect not. It just moves the contentious period from ‘surrounding an election’ to ‘always’. That might not be an improvement for workers.
“And the tens of thousands of workers who have organized with majority sign up report far less pressure from both employers and fellow workers.”
The are far more than a hundred million workers in the United States so that fact (if true, so far as I can see “less pressure from both employers and fellow workers” is rather speculative, especially since under current rules pure card check is only likely to occur when the situation is already less contentious) that a small fraction of 1 per cent of those went through card check isn’t impressive.
I don’t think I have a cite handy, but something like half a million workers have organized (or are at least allowed to organize) with majority sign up in the US.
I can see how employer intimation is probably less likely in most of these case (the employers are voluntarily waiving their right to ask for elections), but research also shows a marked reduction in workplace tension and pressure from coworkers.
This casts serious doubt on your contention that the lack of a secret ballot will majority sign up organizing more ugly than NLRB elections.
Then there’s Ontario…
s/intimation/intimidation
“I can see how employer intimation is probably less likely in most of these case (the employers are voluntarily waiving their right to ask for elections), but research also shows a marked reduction in workplace tension and pressure from coworkers.”
This makes very little sense to me. If the employer is waiving the election you are clearly dealing with a case where the formation of a union is not contentious. If it was contentious, they would almost certainly have To then act as if card check was what made it non-contentious is to reverse apparent cause and effect. Calling that a ‘reduction’ in tension seems confused.
That would be better labelled an expression of already reduced tension.
Radish,
“Heck, the card-check argument is just the right-to-work argument pointing the other way. Is it more traumatic to quit your job in order to avoid joining a union than it is to quit your job because it doesn’t pay enough? If you’re comfortable offering people the latter as a binary “take it or leave it” option, you can hardly complain that the unions have decided to use the same approach.”
The problem is that you can’t really be reflexive in the argumentation. If you want to claim that forcing people into such choices is a bad thing, you don’t add additional bad choices of the same type on top to ‘remedy’ it.
The problem, and I know I keep restating it, is that the argument for unions revolves around the unfairness of employers treating their employees like mere instrumentalities to be used for the employer’s ends. So to counteract that, you argue that we *must* let unions treat employees as mere instrumentalities when organizing.
They are individual people in BOTH cases. You don’t remedy the employer case by merely reassigning the name of the master.
This makes very little sense to me. If the employer is waiving the election you are clearly dealing with a case where the formation of a union is not contentious. If it was contentious, they would almost certainly have To then act as if card check was what made it non-contentious is to reverse apparent cause and effect. Calling that a ‘reduction’ in tension seems confused.
No. The fact that an employer has agreed to respect the workers’ petition for a union, and not exercise its right to demand an NLRB election, is obviously evidence of at least some good faith on the part of the employer. So we’d expect that those employers will probably refrain from at least the dirtiest tactics, and thus few reports of workers feeling pressured by their employer.
But “workplace tension” refers to bad feelings or pressure exchanged between coworkers.
The problem, and I know I keep restating it, is that the argument for unions revolves around the unfairness of employers treating their employees like mere instrumentalities to be used for the employer’s ends. So to counteract that, you argue that we *must* let unions treat employees as mere instrumentalities when organizing.
This incorrectly treats “unions” as a sinister external entity, rather than a communal organization consisting of one’s fellow coworkers.
Angels would fear to tread, much less me, but I’m going to point it out anyhow: Humans being human, I don’t see that characterizing something as “a communal organization consisting of one’s fellow coworkers” absolves it from the possibility of being sinister.
Well, no. But the point is it’s more difficult to insinuate that it is an outside entity with suspect motives that is somehow using (“treating as mere instrumentalities”) its members against their own best interests. It is its members, a majority of whom, at least, prefer to be a part of it.
“This incorrectly treats “unions” as a sinister external entity, rather than a communal organization consisting of one’s fellow coworkers.”
No.
It correctly treats “unions” like every other human institution.
The problem here is that you seem to want to define “employers” as bad institutions which always want to take advantage of workers and “unions” as good institutions which always have the worker’s interests at heart.
I define “employers” as institutions which are sometimes in line with the individual needs of the individual workers and “unions” as institutions which are sometimes in line with the individual needs of the individual workers.
The idea that unions are always in line with the needs of workers is union propaganda. If that were actually true, there would rarely be a conflict in outcomes between card check and secret ballot elections because the worker would so clearly see that the union was well in line with his interests.
In a broad theoretical sense, unions are supposed to advance the worker’s interests. In actuality, like any human institution, that may not be the case. In some instances, like most human institutions, the opposite may be true.
You continually set up the clash between these institutions as requiring a reduction in normal procedural protections for the WORKER in order to set up your personal view of the just outcome. But you don’t justify that. Your evidence is always about the coercive power (against the WORKER) of the corporation institution and you want to ‘remedy’ that by adding additional coercive power to the union (against the WORKER).
Now I will freely admit that my view of the just outcome is somewhat (though not as dramatically as you seem to believe) different from yours.
But I really do see a lot of value in established procedural protections for individuals. Just as I don’t believe that 9/11 justifies the curtailing of regular police protections as applied to individuals, I also don’t believe that corporate power justifies the curtailing of regular election protections as applied to individuals.
You can pile on and on about how bad corporations are, but you have done pretty much nothing to explain how removing secret ballot elections decreases coercive power as applied to WORKERS. At best it redistributes the coercive power so that a different institution has some of it. At worst it compounds the problem by failing to reduce the coercive power of the corporation (they can still have Nell’s spies, you haven’t strengthened anti-firing policies by eliminating secret ballot, etc.) while increasing the power of the unions over employees who don’t necessarily want that.
“It is its members, a majority of whom, at least, prefer to be a part of it.”
If that is the case, they are very likely to win in a secret ballot.
If that is not the case, please quit using it as an excuse.
If that might be the case there is a long history of elections which allow us to find out.
The problem, and I know I keep restating it, is that the argument for unions revolves around the unfairness of employers treating their employees like mere instrumentalities to be used for the employer’s ends. So to counteract that, you argue that we *must* let unions treat employees as mere instrumentalities when organizing.
There’s more wrong with this as well, of course. It’s setting up a false equivalence between 1) ongoing mistreatments visited by the employer qua employer on its workers (that, presumably, motivates the unionization effort in the first place), 2) abuses of workers by the employer conducted for the purpose of quashing an organization drive, and 3) abuses of workers by coworkers and/or outside organizers in the course of that drive.
To Sebastian these are all just equivalent examples of treating workers as “instrumentalities”.
The difference is that the first type affects ALL workers, and, uncorrected, goes on FOREVER. The other two affect only a minority of workers and last only about as long as the unionization process does.
“Well, no. But the point is it’s more difficult to insinuate that it is an outside entity with suspect motives that is somehow using (“treating as mere instrumentalities”) its members against their own best interests.”
Again, the problem is that you are defining unions as an ‘inside’ entity and corporations as an ‘outside’ entity. You don’t seem to understand that it is possible that the union might be an ‘outside’ entity too.
And *especially* when you are organizing the union, you don’t really have a right to treat it as anything other than an ‘outside’ entity. It has not yet been established that it is an ‘inside’ entity.
In fact how can you talk about “somehow using (“treating as mere instrumentalities”) its members against their own best interests”?
It is not a union at that company at that point. It does not have members in that company. Before the vote, of course it could be suspect as against workers. Their interests are not yet imputed to it. In a card check world people who don’t want to sign are in fact adverse to an outside union influence which has every incentive to marginalize their concerns if their concerns include the question of whether or not they actually want to have a union.
The problem here is that you seem to want to define “employers” as bad institutions which always want to take advantage of workers and “unions” as good institutions which always have the worker’s interests at heart.
No. But I do assume that in a unionization campaign, (pro) workers perceive some injustices on the part of that particular employer and believe that organizing will help correct them.
Majority sign up is about making it easier for such workers, when they are in the majority, to create a union in the face of employer opposition.
“The other two affect only a minority of workers and last only about as long as the unionization process does.”
Oh really? It ends once the unionization succeeds? Is this a change of heart? I would have sworn we talked about punishing people who didn’t work in union interests for years later AND that they deserved it!
You wrote: “Stuff along the lines of silent treatment for “scabs” don’t bother me that much. For one, because these individuals have in fact committed a “crime” against their coworkers (which is not analogous to a situation with racists or what have you).”
You wrote “Scabs are not workers who merely passively “don’t like” the union. Scabs are actively undermining the welfare of their fellows, and this is categorically different from a situation where one group punishes another for merely being different. And I’d prefer suffering not be visited up anyone, even social shunning, I’m just hard-pressed to view this as any kind of particularly egregious human rights violation.”
Is refusing to sign the card “actively undermining the welfare of their fellows”?
Is publically arguing against signing the card “actively undermining the welfare of their fellows”?
Is urging other employees not to sign the card “actively undermining the welfare of their fellows?”
It sounds to me that some employees would have an excellent reason to treat you as an ‘outsider’ if you were involved.
You continually set up the clash between these institutions as requiring a reduction in normal procedural protections for the WORKER
As I have pointed out repeatedly, I do not at all agree that we are talking about reducing procedural protections for the worker. On the contrary, it is increasing them.
As it stands, the option of demanding an NLRB election is a privilege enjoyed by the EMPLOYER.
It is already possible for an employer to recognize a union if it is presented with signed cards from 51% of its employees, if it chooses. What EFCA is about is forcing the employer to recognize the union in that case.
Meanwhile WORKERS would have the right to a full election, if they so choose.
“Meanwhile WORKERS would have the right to a full election, if they so choose.”
That does not seem to be the case. I’ve already talked about that.
As I wrote two days ago:
“It is its members, a majority of whom, at least, prefer to be a part of it.”
If that is the case, they are very likely to win in a secret ballot.
If that is not the case, please quit using it as an excuse.
If that might be the case there is a long history of elections which allow us to find out.
First of all, not all NLRB elections are lost. Many (most? I don’t have figures), are obviously won. But even when a clear majority exists, they are used by antagonistic employers to draw the process out and generate unnecessary bitterness, tension, and delay. That’s leaving aside the matter of how an employer might unduly intimidate or influence workers in the lag between the time when a majority of workers present cards asking for a union, and the time the election is held.
Majority sign up avoids that. And your only objection is that it removes a supposed procedural protection, and might lead to increased tension or intimidation by organizers. A claim that is controverted by the available evidence.
That does not seem to be the case. I’ve already talked about that.
I am not qualified to interpret the legalese, and offhand I can’t see anything wrong with your interpretation.
I think it’s a red herring though – the fact remains that rights are being revoked from employers, not workers.
That’s a far broader and vaguer claim than I would be willing to make. All I’m pointing out is that it doesn’t make sense to simultaneously endorse a right-to-work position and oppose a right-to-unionize position, because the right-to-work position assumes that forcing people into such choices is not a bad thing.
If there’s no harm in your employer offering you-plus-your-colleagues new non-negotiable terms of collective employment then how can there possibly be any harm in your colleagues collectively offering you-plus-your-employer the same thing?
Conversely, if there is a harm associated with such offers then there’s also something seriously wrong with the whole right-to-work argument, the central premise of which is that it’s just as easy (on average) to find a new job as it is to hire a new employee.