by liberal japonicus
Just a random topic that seems interesting
https://interestingengineering.com/energy-storage-trains-work-power-gravity
That or anything else.
362 thoughts on “Mid-week energy thread”
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I’ve probably put up some of these before, but they’re all within the last few weeks…
My local power authority issued an RFP for another 250 MW of solar, this time with four hours of storage included. Individual pieces as small as 25 MW will be considered, so long as they fit within the authority’s (large for its customer base) existing transmission footprint. The authority’s current annual generation is about 50% renewable sources, with a target of 100% by 2030.
Power Company of Wyoming is building North America’s largest wind farm, and recently signed a lease for 1.5 GW of transmission capacity in the TransWest Express project. This will allow delivery of wind power from the east side of the Rockies to a point that can service Southern California. Myself, I believe that even though no one in California has said so, this is a big chunk of the replacement power they’ll need when the Diablo Canyon nukes shut down in 2024 and 2025.
The UAMPS small modular reactor nuclear project to be sited at the Idaho National Labs has changed their design to use air cooling for the steam power generation loop. Current total construction cost estimates have crept past the $8B per GW level. The reactor design has been approved by the NRC. No ground breaking for the factory where the reactors will be built yet.
Bill Gates and Warren Buffett say they will build a 365 MWe sodium moderated fast neutron nuclear plant in western Wyoming. Also an air cooled generation loop. Initial construction cost estimate about $11B per GW. The reactor design has not yet been submitted to the NRC.
The Georgia Public Services commission heard testimony on the Vogtle 3 and 4 nukes: another cost increase, bringing the total estimate to about $29B for the pair (about $12B per GW); another few-month slip in the schedule for starting fueling; the smaller owners of the consortium look ready to take Georgia Power to court, claiming that trigger conditions have been met and this most recent billion dollar overrun is all on Georgia Power.
I’ve probably put up some of these before, but they’re all within the last few weeks…
My local power authority issued an RFP for another 250 MW of solar, this time with four hours of storage included. Individual pieces as small as 25 MW will be considered, so long as they fit within the authority’s (large for its customer base) existing transmission footprint. The authority’s current annual generation is about 50% renewable sources, with a target of 100% by 2030.
Power Company of Wyoming is building North America’s largest wind farm, and recently signed a lease for 1.5 GW of transmission capacity in the TransWest Express project. This will allow delivery of wind power from the east side of the Rockies to a point that can service Southern California. Myself, I believe that even though no one in California has said so, this is a big chunk of the replacement power they’ll need when the Diablo Canyon nukes shut down in 2024 and 2025.
The UAMPS small modular reactor nuclear project to be sited at the Idaho National Labs has changed their design to use air cooling for the steam power generation loop. Current total construction cost estimates have crept past the $8B per GW level. The reactor design has been approved by the NRC. No ground breaking for the factory where the reactors will be built yet.
Bill Gates and Warren Buffett say they will build a 365 MWe sodium moderated fast neutron nuclear plant in western Wyoming. Also an air cooled generation loop. Initial construction cost estimate about $11B per GW. The reactor design has not yet been submitted to the NRC.
The Georgia Public Services commission heard testimony on the Vogtle 3 and 4 nukes: another cost increase, bringing the total estimate to about $29B for the pair (about $12B per GW); another few-month slip in the schedule for starting fueling; the smaller owners of the consortium look ready to take Georgia Power to court, claiming that trigger conditions have been met and this most recent billion dollar overrun is all on Georgia Power.
our trip to the beach through rural central NC has always taken us through endless acres of tobacco and cotton fields. but in the last couple of years, thousands of acres of that farm land has been converted to solar farms.
there’s more than 7GW of installed solar power generated in NC. second in the nation, behind CA.
while it was somewhat idyllic seeing endless fields of cotton. it’s nicely jarring to turn the corner from a soybean farm and see ten square miles of glittering solar panels.
(‘installed’ = potential generated power. things like clouds reduced what actually gets produced)
our trip to the beach through rural central NC has always taken us through endless acres of tobacco and cotton fields. but in the last couple of years, thousands of acres of that farm land has been converted to solar farms.
there’s more than 7GW of installed solar power generated in NC. second in the nation, behind CA.
while it was somewhat idyllic seeing endless fields of cotton. it’s nicely jarring to turn the corner from a soybean farm and see ten square miles of glittering solar panels.
(‘installed’ = potential generated power. things like clouds reduced what actually gets produced)
Salem MA just won a bid to be a marshaling port for offshore wind farm development. “Marshaling port” basically means a land base of operations for building out offshore wind farms. The marshaling yard will occupy a 40+ acre property that used to be the site of a coal-burning power plant.
I think the wind turbines themselves will be located off of Martha’s Vineyard.
Salem MA just won a bid to be a marshaling port for offshore wind farm development. “Marshaling port” basically means a land base of operations for building out offshore wind farms. The marshaling yard will occupy a 40+ acre property that used to be the site of a coal-burning power plant.
I think the wind turbines themselves will be located off of Martha’s Vineyard.
It’s been possible, with hydro power, to turn the turbines into pumps, and put water back on the uphill side. Fastly lower friction losses than train mechanisms, too.
It’s been possible, with hydro power, to turn the turbines into pumps, and put water back on the uphill side. Fastly lower friction losses than train mechanisms, too.
It’s been possible, with hydro power, to turn the turbines into pumps, and put water back on the uphill side. Fastly lower friction losses than train mechanisms, too.
My local power authority has been approached by investors interested in building a sizeable (700MW, eight hours if the upper reservoir is full) pumped hydro storage system that would be served by the authority’s transmission network. They would buy excess wind/solar/hydro* power across an extensive area at low rates to pump water uphill, then sell generated power for a profit during periods of higher demand.
* Dams usually can’t time water releases solely on the basis of generating electricity. Sometimes they have to free up capacity for flood control, or to meet downstream irrigation demands.
It’s been possible, with hydro power, to turn the turbines into pumps, and put water back on the uphill side. Fastly lower friction losses than train mechanisms, too.
My local power authority has been approached by investors interested in building a sizeable (700MW, eight hours if the upper reservoir is full) pumped hydro storage system that would be served by the authority’s transmission network. They would buy excess wind/solar/hydro* power across an extensive area at low rates to pump water uphill, then sell generated power for a profit during periods of higher demand.
* Dams usually can’t time water releases solely on the basis of generating electricity. Sometimes they have to free up capacity for flood control, or to meet downstream irrigation demands.
Back during the 1978 oil crisis, NSF solicited proposals from the public(!) for non-fossil power generation. One of my professors at the time went over some of them for the class. His favorite(?) was the “Rocky Mountains Rock Wheel”: a system for chipping rocks off the tops of mountains and using their fall to drive generators. I forget the details, but I think the proposal included a calculation that all US electricity for 500(?) years could be generated this way before the Rockies were leveled:)
–TP
Back during the 1978 oil crisis, NSF solicited proposals from the public(!) for non-fossil power generation. One of my professors at the time went over some of them for the class. His favorite(?) was the “Rocky Mountains Rock Wheel”: a system for chipping rocks off the tops of mountains and using their fall to drive generators. I forget the details, but I think the proposal included a calculation that all US electricity for 500(?) years could be generated this way before the Rockies were leveled:)
–TP
TP — I was only a literature major (Course XXI-B2, Humanities and Science, with a concentration in literature and a second concentration in history). But the first thought that comes into my mind is to wonder whether the proposal included the cost of the externalities of leveling the Rockies.
May I say “LOL”?
TP — I was only a literature major (Course XXI-B2, Humanities and Science, with a concentration in literature and a second concentration in history). But the first thought that comes into my mind is to wonder whether the proposal included the cost of the externalities of leveling the Rockies.
May I say “LOL”?
Rivers? Wildlife? Plant life? People who live in the Rockies? Weather patterns?!?!?!?!?
I quit even looking at Tech Review a long time ago because I got tired of the “rah rah tech will save the world” refrain. Don’t these people know anything about history or hubris? (Another rhetorical question. Clearly the humanities requirement wasn’t sufficient.)
Rivers? Wildlife? Plant life? People who live in the Rockies? Weather patterns?!?!?!?!?
I quit even looking at Tech Review a long time ago because I got tired of the “rah rah tech will save the world” refrain. Don’t these people know anything about history or hubris? (Another rhetorical question. Clearly the humanities requirement wasn’t sufficient.)
I forget the details, but I think the proposal included a calculation that all US electricity for 500(?) years could be generated this way before the Rockies were leveled:)
Nope. Biting my tongue. Blood flowing down my chin, soaking my shirt, ruining the carpet. But I’m not going to ask to see the assumptions about how much mass was going to be moved what horizontal distances at no energy cost.
I forget the details, but I think the proposal included a calculation that all US electricity for 500(?) years could be generated this way before the Rockies were leveled:)
Nope. Biting my tongue. Blood flowing down my chin, soaking my shirt, ruining the carpet. But I’m not going to ask to see the assumptions about how much mass was going to be moved what horizontal distances at no energy cost.
But I’m not going to ask to see the assumptions about how much mass was going to be moved what horizontal distances at no energy cost.
I didn’t encounter the original, but I’d bet it was a first cut. That is, just take the mass and the height of the Rockies vs sea level. Never mind about finding somewhere downhill to put all that mass. Never mind that the surrounding groung (e.g. around Denver) is rather above sea level — were you going to excavate that?
Calculations like that do serve a purpose: they can tell you relatively rapidly and easily when something won’t work. But no competent engineer would even consider them for designs to meet specs.
But I’m not going to ask to see the assumptions about how much mass was going to be moved what horizontal distances at no energy cost.
I didn’t encounter the original, but I’d bet it was a first cut. That is, just take the mass and the height of the Rockies vs sea level. Never mind about finding somewhere downhill to put all that mass. Never mind that the surrounding groung (e.g. around Denver) is rather above sea level — were you going to excavate that?
Calculations like that do serve a purpose: they can tell you relatively rapidly and easily when something won’t work. But no competent engineer would even consider them for designs to meet specs.
There was a spoof theory in the early 1970’s that the CCP was going to organize a great leap by the entire 800 million of their citizens simultaneously into the Pacific Ocean along their coastline and cause a catastrophic tsumami that would engulf the entire west coast of America.
It kind of happened, but by other means.
I gave a speech on it in Introductory Speech 101 freshman year of college. It was a refreshing break from dressing up like John Lennon and giving War is Over (If You Want It) speeches week after week.
I wish I had followed through on my idea of dragging a double bed into the classroom a la the Amsterdam and Montreal bed-ins and inviting the Japanese coed on campus named, yes, Yoko, to recline with me and be interviewed about the peace movement by my classmates.
I expect theories similar to the tsunami one to emerge soon as the conservative movement gins up a new Yellow Peril justification for nuclear war.
Wait, they’ve already started.
There was a spoof theory in the early 1970’s that the CCP was going to organize a great leap by the entire 800 million of their citizens simultaneously into the Pacific Ocean along their coastline and cause a catastrophic tsumami that would engulf the entire west coast of America.
It kind of happened, but by other means.
I gave a speech on it in Introductory Speech 101 freshman year of college. It was a refreshing break from dressing up like John Lennon and giving War is Over (If You Want It) speeches week after week.
I wish I had followed through on my idea of dragging a double bed into the classroom a la the Amsterdam and Montreal bed-ins and inviting the Japanese coed on campus named, yes, Yoko, to recline with me and be interviewed about the peace movement by my classmates.
I expect theories similar to the tsunami one to emerge soon as the conservative movement gins up a new Yellow Peril justification for nuclear war.
Wait, they’ve already started.
JanieM: May I say “LOL”?
Of course! It was the whole spirit of that class discussion. As proper coastal elitists, we were all laughing at what wacky ideas “the public” was offering to NSF. Unseemly contempt for the sturdy yeomen of the heartland on our part, of course, but we didn’t know any better back then.
–TP
JanieM: May I say “LOL”?
Of course! It was the whole spirit of that class discussion. As proper coastal elitists, we were all laughing at what wacky ideas “the public” was offering to NSF. Unseemly contempt for the sturdy yeomen of the heartland on our part, of course, but we didn’t know any better back then.
–TP
such as… building a dome over your town!
such as… building a dome over your town!
The trains are just a wrinkle on gravity storage. Needs convenient slopes; interesting, though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_battery
I also like cryogenic storage, as it’s just as scalable, and deployable more or less anywhere.
https://highviewpower.com/technology/
The trains are just a wrinkle on gravity storage. Needs convenient slopes; interesting, though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_battery
I also like cryogenic storage, as it’s just as scalable, and deployable more or less anywhere.
https://highviewpower.com/technology/
A lot of the inefficiency in energy generation comes from the entropy involved in operating “heat engines”.
Cryogenic storage would be even worse: have to run a refrigerator (even less efficient, thanks to entropy) PLUS a heat engine to get the stored energy back. It would be more efficient to store your energy as super-hot rocks and then use the stored heat to run a heat engine, but still iffy.
The “gravity railroad” seems like a nightmare to me: too much mechanical stuff to go wrong/maintain for the energy stored.
At least with hydroelectric, if your pipes have small leaks, it’s just some inefficiency; if a gravity train wheel (one of many!) bumps off a track, you have major problems.
And there’s other uses for stored water.
A lot of the inefficiency in energy generation comes from the entropy involved in operating “heat engines”.
Cryogenic storage would be even worse: have to run a refrigerator (even less efficient, thanks to entropy) PLUS a heat engine to get the stored energy back. It would be more efficient to store your energy as super-hot rocks and then use the stored heat to run a heat engine, but still iffy.
The “gravity railroad” seems like a nightmare to me: too much mechanical stuff to go wrong/maintain for the energy stored.
At least with hydroelectric, if your pipes have small leaks, it’s just some inefficiency; if a gravity train wheel (one of many!) bumps off a track, you have major problems.
And there’s other uses for stored water.
If we’re going to involve the Rockies, why not store energy by raising the entire mountain range by some very small distance. Let the mass do most of the work rather than the height. Raise the Rockies just an inch and you have a ton of potential energy!
If we’re going to involve the Rockies, why not store energy by raising the entire mountain range by some very small distance. Let the mass do most of the work rather than the height. Raise the Rockies just an inch and you have a ton of potential energy!
flywheels it is.
flywheels it is.
If we make them out of black holes, they can be really small and still have lots of rotational kinetic energy. God, it’s so simple.
If we make them out of black holes, they can be really small and still have lots of rotational kinetic energy. God, it’s so simple.
But if they are too small, they can explode at any moment. Don’t know whether there is an increase in Hawking radiation early enough to serve as a warning sign.
But if they are too small, they can explode at any moment. Don’t know whether there is an increase in Hawking radiation early enough to serve as a warning sign.
Based on what I see in my backyard, I’m pretty sure we could power the world with squirrels.
Plus, they work (literally) for peanuts.
Based on what I see in my backyard, I’m pretty sure we could power the world with squirrels.
Plus, they work (literally) for peanuts.
There was a spoof theory in the early 1970’s that the CCP was going to organize a great leap by the entire 800 million of their citizens simultaneously into the Pacific Ocean along their coastline and cause a catastrophic tsumami that would engulf the entire west coast of America.
Ripley’s Believe It or Not did a piece called “The Marching Chinese” at some point. The calculation said roughly that if all the Chinese in the world started marching through a gateway, four abreast and at standard speed, the line would never end because the birth rate was higher than the rate of people passing through the gate.
The calculation was never accurate. Assuming 120 strides per minute, 30 inch strides, 60 inch rank spacing, 525,960 minutes per year, and four people per rank, something over 125 million people per year would pass through the gateway. Global births first reached that level in 1980, are forecast to stay above it until the end of this century, and then to decline.
There was a spoof theory in the early 1970’s that the CCP was going to organize a great leap by the entire 800 million of their citizens simultaneously into the Pacific Ocean along their coastline and cause a catastrophic tsumami that would engulf the entire west coast of America.
Ripley’s Believe It or Not did a piece called “The Marching Chinese” at some point. The calculation said roughly that if all the Chinese in the world started marching through a gateway, four abreast and at standard speed, the line would never end because the birth rate was higher than the rate of people passing through the gate.
The calculation was never accurate. Assuming 120 strides per minute, 30 inch strides, 60 inch rank spacing, 525,960 minutes per year, and four people per rank, something over 125 million people per year would pass through the gateway. Global births first reached that level in 1980, are forecast to stay above it until the end of this century, and then to decline.
Cryogenic storage would be even worse…
But what if everyone had a smart freezer, controlled by the grid, which could make the freezer colder when it had excess power, and let it warm up a little (to -16C say) when it wanted to use less?
Cryogenic storage would be even worse…
But what if everyone had a smart freezer, controlled by the grid, which could make the freezer colder when it had excess power, and let it warm up a little (to -16C say) when it wanted to use less?
Just realized; the “railroad” plan is actually NOT a railroad.
It’s a funicular. Which is ‘way cooler, if you could actually ride it somewhere.
Which, unfortunately, you couldn’t.
IIRC, I’ve ridden funiculars in Switzerland and Japan. Maybe Belgium too. Always worth a trip.
Just realized; the “railroad” plan is actually NOT a railroad.
It’s a funicular. Which is ‘way cooler, if you could actually ride it somewhere.
Which, unfortunately, you couldn’t.
IIRC, I’ve ridden funiculars in Switzerland and Japan. Maybe Belgium too. Always worth a trip.
But what if everyone had a smart freezer, controlled by the grid, which could make the freezer colder when it had excess power, and let it warm up a little (to -16C say) when it wanted to use less?
Demand management is a different thing than grid-scaled storage. Which is not to say that demand management isn’t important, it’s just different.
In an unexpected burst of common sense some years back, the FERC ruled that utilities could bid “negawatts” in wholesale electricity markets. That is, particularly during a demand peak, when peaking generators might be offering to generate only for very high prices, utilities could (on behalf of their customers) offer to reduce demand for less per MWh. And the SCOTUS held that Congress did indeed define “electricity market regulated by FERC” broadly enough to cover negawatts. I was surprised by the FERC decision and darned near stunned by the SCOTUS opinion.
But what if everyone had a smart freezer, controlled by the grid, which could make the freezer colder when it had excess power, and let it warm up a little (to -16C say) when it wanted to use less?
Demand management is a different thing than grid-scaled storage. Which is not to say that demand management isn’t important, it’s just different.
In an unexpected burst of common sense some years back, the FERC ruled that utilities could bid “negawatts” in wholesale electricity markets. That is, particularly during a demand peak, when peaking generators might be offering to generate only for very high prices, utilities could (on behalf of their customers) offer to reduce demand for less per MWh. And the SCOTUS held that Congress did indeed define “electricity market regulated by FERC” broadly enough to cover negawatts. I was surprised by the FERC decision and darned near stunned by the SCOTUS opinion.
The calculation said roughly that if all the Chinese in the world started marching through a gateway, four abreast and at standard speed, the line would never end because the birth rate was higher than the rate of people passing through the gate.
The calculation was never accurate.
Leaving aside how long the strides were, etc., how would they have the opportunity to, um, procreate, not to mention taking a break from marching to give birth, etc.
The calculation said roughly that if all the Chinese in the world started marching through a gateway, four abreast and at standard speed, the line would never end because the birth rate was higher than the rate of people passing through the gate.
The calculation was never accurate.
Leaving aside how long the strides were, etc., how would they have the opportunity to, um, procreate, not to mention taking a break from marching to give birth, etc.
Leaving aside how long the strides were, etc., how would they have the opportunity to, um, procreate, not to mention taking a break from marching to give birth, etc.
How long does it take you to walk/past a post? The thought experiment didn’t have them lined up and marching constantly, just long enough to each march past the post. Plenty of time for other pursuits.
Leaving aside how long the strides were, etc., how would they have the opportunity to, um, procreate, not to mention taking a break from marching to give birth, etc.
How long does it take you to walk/past a post? The thought experiment didn’t have them lined up and marching constantly, just long enough to each march past the post. Plenty of time for other pursuits.
flywheels it is.
Flywheels have those nasty failure modes where all the energy gets accidentally released in a very short period of time.
flywheels it is.
Flywheels have those nasty failure modes where all the energy gets accidentally released in a very short period of time.
But the damages from a flywheel failure are tangential…
But the damages from a flywheel failure are tangential…
But the damages from a flywheel failure are tangential…
Essentially all failure modes result in things going high-energy linear…
But the damages from a flywheel failure are tangential…
Essentially all failure modes result in things going high-energy linear…
Give Manchin what he wants, or the planet gets it.
https://slate.com/business/2021/12/manchin-build-back-better-environment-biden.html
What does Manchin want ?
Fnck knows.
Give Manchin what he wants, or the planet gets it.
https://slate.com/business/2021/12/manchin-build-back-better-environment-biden.html
What does Manchin want ?
Fnck knows.
What does Manchin want ?
Every last second of his 15 minutes in the spotlight, and all the money he can squeeze out of it.
What does Manchin want ?
Every last second of his 15 minutes in the spotlight, and all the money he can squeeze out of it.
He wants to be popular in West Virginia. And he wants to be rich. Destroying the planet, who cares?
He wants to be popular in West Virginia. And he wants to be rich. Destroying the planet, who cares?
Let’s conjure a djinn and turn him (Manchin) into a poplar – and that into matches!
Let’s conjure a djinn and turn him (Manchin) into a poplar – and that into matches!
Still an open thread?
Hooked up the granddaughters gift yesterday afternoon: an A/V link between their house and mine using the code I wrote 27 years ago and recently resuscitated, and bits and pieces from the Raspberry Pi parts box in my closet. We talked three times yesterday evening after I was home. Other than the acoustic echo I expected, it all worked. The girls seemed to enjoy it — or at least mugging for the video camera.
(Yes, Zoom and Teams and whatever. But with this I know where the data goes, and none of those places are a corporate server.)
Still an open thread?
Hooked up the granddaughters gift yesterday afternoon: an A/V link between their house and mine using the code I wrote 27 years ago and recently resuscitated, and bits and pieces from the Raspberry Pi parts box in my closet. We talked three times yesterday evening after I was home. Other than the acoustic echo I expected, it all worked. The girls seemed to enjoy it — or at least mugging for the video camera.
(Yes, Zoom and Teams and whatever. But with this I know where the data goes, and none of those places are a corporate server.)
Why Is John Roberts So Popular Among Democrats?
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/12/john-roberts-boasts-majority-approval-among-democrats.html
He’s just a more sophisticated grifter.
I guess the US just likes grifters.
Why Is John Roberts So Popular Among Democrats?
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/12/john-roberts-boasts-majority-approval-among-democrats.html
He’s just a more sophisticated grifter.
I guess the US just likes grifters.
If you view unemployment benefits as a serious incentive to not work, I suppose this makes sense
5 GOP-led states extend unemployment aid to workers who lose jobs over vaccine mandates
Which is likely the point.
If you view unemployment benefits as a serious incentive to not work, I suppose this makes sense
5 GOP-led states extend unemployment aid to workers who lose jobs over vaccine mandates
Which is likely the point.
As a person who formerly worried about details of UI financing, I note that in many states the number of employees who leave your company and qualify for UI benefits has a (sometimes dramatic) effect on the business’s UI premium/tax rate. (a) Wonder if those states fall in that category, and (b) wonder if the legislatures changed that part of the rule as well?
I guess there’s a (c) as well: the financial penalties for all businesses in a state if the state falls out of compliance with federal rules on the UI program are pretty severe. Speaking from experience, nothing ruins a legislative staffer’s day like getting a call from the federal Dept of Labor saying “Senate Bill 423, as passed and signed into law, does not conform to the federal requirements. You know what that means, don’t you?”
As a person who formerly worried about details of UI financing, I note that in many states the number of employees who leave your company and qualify for UI benefits has a (sometimes dramatic) effect on the business’s UI premium/tax rate. (a) Wonder if those states fall in that category, and (b) wonder if the legislatures changed that part of the rule as well?
I guess there’s a (c) as well: the financial penalties for all businesses in a state if the state falls out of compliance with federal rules on the UI program are pretty severe. Speaking from experience, nothing ruins a legislative staffer’s day like getting a call from the federal Dept of Labor saying “Senate Bill 423, as passed and signed into law, does not conform to the federal requirements. You know what that means, don’t you?”
I’m trying to learn Python well enough to do something useful. I’m a bit rusty after not writing much code for about three decades. For those of you still writing code, it would likely be close to a breeze to pick it up.
I’m trying to learn Python well enough to do something useful. I’m a bit rusty after not writing much code for about three decades. For those of you still writing code, it would likely be close to a breeze to pick it up.
I had to learn Python when it turned out my children were being taught it. (For some meaning of ‘had to’.) It’s not difficult.
I had to learn Python when it turned out my children were being taught it. (For some meaning of ‘had to’.) It’s not difficult.
I’m trying to learn Python well enough to do something useful. I’m a bit rusty after not writing much code for about three decades. For those of you still writing code, it would likely be close to a breeze to pick it up.
I’m on the same page of Eric Raymond in the sense that being annoyed about the “white space has syntactical meaning” goes away after about 20 minutes, and I was writing meaningful code faster than any other language I picked up.
One of the very good decisions Guido made was when he decided that if it didn’t include tkinter it wasn’t Python, and to enforce that. So it’s guaranteed that if you have Python, you can code GUIs. Larry Wall should have done something similar with Perl 5.
OTOH, if you want to crunch numbers you have to learn at least one, and possibly multiple libraries because the interpreter is too slow. And if you’re in my situation, all of audio, video, pipes, and internet packets have different incompatible event loops. The A/V code for the granddaughters is a really bizarre mix of Python, Perl, and antique C.
I’m trying to learn Python well enough to do something useful. I’m a bit rusty after not writing much code for about three decades. For those of you still writing code, it would likely be close to a breeze to pick it up.
I’m on the same page of Eric Raymond in the sense that being annoyed about the “white space has syntactical meaning” goes away after about 20 minutes, and I was writing meaningful code faster than any other language I picked up.
One of the very good decisions Guido made was when he decided that if it didn’t include tkinter it wasn’t Python, and to enforce that. So it’s guaranteed that if you have Python, you can code GUIs. Larry Wall should have done something similar with Perl 5.
OTOH, if you want to crunch numbers you have to learn at least one, and possibly multiple libraries because the interpreter is too slow. And if you’re in my situation, all of audio, video, pipes, and internet packets have different incompatible event loops. The A/V code for the granddaughters is a really bizarre mix of Python, Perl, and antique C.
“The A/V code for the granddaughters is a really bizarre mix of Python, Perl, and antique C.”
Should put some APL in there, just for “compatibility”.
I *still* want to hit the space bar 6 times at the beginning of each line of code. It feels so *wrong* not to. Maybe I should try Python, then.
“The A/V code for the granddaughters is a really bizarre mix of Python, Perl, and antique C.”
Should put some APL in there, just for “compatibility”.
I *still* want to hit the space bar 6 times at the beginning of each line of code. It feels so *wrong* not to. Maybe I should try Python, then.
(a) Wonder if those states fall in that category, and (b) wonder if the legislatures changed that part of the rule as well?
Given the general (in)competence track record of these folks, it would not be wonderful if they changed nothing there, nor even considered that there might be something to change. Why spare a thought on wasting their citizens’ money on penalties? After all, they’re willing to waste their lives.
Besides, they might create a test case to get the political hacks now in charge of the Supreme Court to toss the Federal requirements altogether. Maybe even a decision written broadly enough to gut Federal regulations generally.
(a) Wonder if those states fall in that category, and (b) wonder if the legislatures changed that part of the rule as well?
Given the general (in)competence track record of these folks, it would not be wonderful if they changed nothing there, nor even considered that there might be something to change. Why spare a thought on wasting their citizens’ money on penalties? After all, they’re willing to waste their lives.
Besides, they might create a test case to get the political hacks now in charge of the Supreme Court to toss the Federal requirements altogether. Maybe even a decision written broadly enough to gut Federal regulations generally.
Python code:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAy4zULKFDU
Python code:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAy4zULKFDU
There are many things to complain about perl, but probably the worst is that if you learn perl first, you can never get past the fact that python’s pattern recognition methods are an abomination.
There are many things to complain about perl, but probably the worst is that if you learn perl first, you can never get past the fact that python’s pattern recognition methods are an abomination.
“There are many things to complain about perl”
…all part of the “more than one way to do it” ethos, it’s true.
“There are many things to complain about perl”
…all part of the “more than one way to do it” ethos, it’s true.
https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1475583481778475012
https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1475583481778475012
Besides, they might create a test case to get the political hacks now in charge of the Supreme Court to toss the Federal requirements altogether. Maybe even a decision written broadly enough to gut Federal regulations generally.
Ever since Sebelius, where the Court decided that the Medicaid expansion was unconstitutional because the threat for not accepting it was so severe no state could afford to, I have been waiting for a state to challenge the unemployment insurance system. Basically, the threat for not having a conforming program is so severe that all states have such programs. The feds know it because even though there is the option for a state to drop out, and the feds would be required to take applications and send out payments, the feds have absolutely zero of the infrastructure to do that.
Several years back a state legislator here in Colorado made a floor speech on a Friday saying perhaps it was time for Colorado to bail on the UI program. The following Monday he made a speech in which he said he had been contacted by many of his constituents over the weekend and it most definitely was not time for Colorado to consider leaving, as the penalties were so severe.
The gutting the regulatory agencies case is West Virginia v. EPA and three consolidated cases, oral arguments in February. This is why Gorsuch was confirmed.
Besides, they might create a test case to get the political hacks now in charge of the Supreme Court to toss the Federal requirements altogether. Maybe even a decision written broadly enough to gut Federal regulations generally.
Ever since Sebelius, where the Court decided that the Medicaid expansion was unconstitutional because the threat for not accepting it was so severe no state could afford to, I have been waiting for a state to challenge the unemployment insurance system. Basically, the threat for not having a conforming program is so severe that all states have such programs. The feds know it because even though there is the option for a state to drop out, and the feds would be required to take applications and send out payments, the feds have absolutely zero of the infrastructure to do that.
Several years back a state legislator here in Colorado made a floor speech on a Friday saying perhaps it was time for Colorado to bail on the UI program. The following Monday he made a speech in which he said he had been contacted by many of his constituents over the weekend and it most definitely was not time for Colorado to consider leaving, as the penalties were so severe.
The gutting the regulatory agencies case is West Virginia v. EPA and three consolidated cases, oral arguments in February. This is why Gorsuch was confirmed.
if the GOP no longer wants to exist, they will get rid of UI.
if the GOP no longer wants to exist, they will get rid of UI.
if the GOP no longer wants to exist, they will get rid of UI.
Well, that might work. But more sure-fire would be to embrace the folks who occasionally get up and call for abolishing Social Security. Or Medicare.
if the GOP no longer wants to exist, they will get rid of UI.
Well, that might work. But more sure-fire would be to embrace the folks who occasionally get up and call for abolishing Social Security. Or Medicare.
Why wait for that eventuality?
The GOP has already proved themselves worthy of physical extinction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGy7O5OaRaU
Why wait for that eventuality?
The GOP has already proved themselves worthy of physical extinction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGy7O5OaRaU
Finally, a fucking conservative tells us straight out what they plan to do with their weapons:
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/gun-ownership-is-political-violence/
An armed society is one in which I shoot armed conservatives for carrying weapons in public they want to kill me with and for not wearing masks and not being vaxxed, in case they miss with the bullets, and then their corpses finally have the sense to shut the eff up and remain politely silent for eternity.
Public executions, indeed. Turn the sound up.
https://twitter.com/patriottakes/status/1475270184290062336?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1475270184290062336%7Ctwgr%5Ehb_1_7%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailykos.com%2Fstory%2F2021%2F12%2F27%2F2071406%2F-Fascism-House-Republican-extremists-look-to-support-candidates-as-devoted-to-Trump-as-they-are
Bullets in flight are constitutionally-protected free political speech and I’ll bet I can get five conservative Supreme Court Judges wearing bullet-proof vests to agree with me, given the trajectory of bullshit conservative movement juris(im)prudence in this disgrace of a country.
Roberts will crinkle his brow and recuse himself, but only because the other five justices are packing heat in his presence and he’s a coward.
Finally, a fucking conservative tells us straight out what they plan to do with their weapons:
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/gun-ownership-is-political-violence/
An armed society is one in which I shoot armed conservatives for carrying weapons in public they want to kill me with and for not wearing masks and not being vaxxed, in case they miss with the bullets, and then their corpses finally have the sense to shut the eff up and remain politely silent for eternity.
Public executions, indeed. Turn the sound up.
https://twitter.com/patriottakes/status/1475270184290062336?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1475270184290062336%7Ctwgr%5Ehb_1_7%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailykos.com%2Fstory%2F2021%2F12%2F27%2F2071406%2F-Fascism-House-Republican-extremists-look-to-support-candidates-as-devoted-to-Trump-as-they-are
Bullets in flight are constitutionally-protected free political speech and I’ll bet I can get five conservative Supreme Court Judges wearing bullet-proof vests to agree with me, given the trajectory of bullshit conservative movement juris(im)prudence in this disgrace of a country.
Roberts will crinkle his brow and recuse himself, but only because the other five justices are packing heat in his presence and he’s a coward.
Just a reminder…
Just a reminder…
“Well, that might work. But more sure-fire would be to embrace the folks who occasionally get up and call for abolishing Social Security. Or Medicare.”
That last won’t work with the addlepated, psychotic sociopaths tearing the country asunder:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/12/oregon-secession-idaho-move-border/621087/
Key sentences:
“Counties such as Harney are hugely dependent on federal funding; Oregon’s second congressional district, which covers the entire eastern swath of the state, was the nation’s biggest recipient of Affordable Care Act funds.”
These ilk can be stupid six ways to Sunday and each time time they add another layer of stupid to it, it inflames their authentic dumbass, oh so sincere passions all the more so.
They want to be martyrs, as all fake American Christians seem to. But at the moment of their martyrdom, nailed to the their crosses, they’ll point out that they see their house from their elevated view.
Wait, that’s Oregon. I thought the house came with.
“Well, that might work. But more sure-fire would be to embrace the folks who occasionally get up and call for abolishing Social Security. Or Medicare.”
That last won’t work with the addlepated, psychotic sociopaths tearing the country asunder:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/12/oregon-secession-idaho-move-border/621087/
Key sentences:
“Counties such as Harney are hugely dependent on federal funding; Oregon’s second congressional district, which covers the entire eastern swath of the state, was the nation’s biggest recipient of Affordable Care Act funds.”
These ilk can be stupid six ways to Sunday and each time time they add another layer of stupid to it, it inflames their authentic dumbass, oh so sincere passions all the more so.
They want to be martyrs, as all fake American Christians seem to. But at the moment of their martyrdom, nailed to the their crosses, they’ll point out that they see their house from their elevated view.
Wait, that’s Oregon. I thought the house came with.
From nooneithinkisimmytree’s link to The American Conservative:
“Heavily armed men are a necessary but insufficient condition for the rule of law.”
“Necessary”??? Hard to believe that anyone of even moderate intelligence, and a modicum of awareness of the world, could make that statement with a straight face. But apparently alienation from reality has progressed further than I realized.
From nooneithinkisimmytree’s link to The American Conservative:
“Heavily armed men are a necessary but insufficient condition for the rule of law.”
“Necessary”??? Hard to believe that anyone of even moderate intelligence, and a modicum of awareness of the world, could make that statement with a straight face. But apparently alienation from reality has progressed further than I realized.
If they don’t like the way things turn out through the existing legal and constitutional processes, they’ll overthrow it all.
The fact that most people really would rather not have it all overthrown is irrelevant, to them.
We’ve tolerated the development of private militias – bands of armed people not accountable to any civil authority – and this is where we’ve ended up.
If they don’t like the way things turn out through the existing legal and constitutional processes, they’ll overthrow it all.
The fact that most people really would rather not have it all overthrown is irrelevant, to them.
We’ve tolerated the development of private militias – bands of armed people not accountable to any civil authority – and this is where we’ve ended up.
If they don’t like the way things turn out through the existing legal and constitutional processes, they’ll overthrow it all.
Say, rather, they’ll try to overthrow it all. But if they reach the point where it looks like they might succeed, they will discover that most people aren’t fans. And simply won’t put up with it. Likely to be rather a shock to their systems, having reality intrude like that.
And yes, “they” can equally well apply to rhe political hacks on the Supreme Court. Being a serious minority, and seriously out of line with the nation, simply won’t work.
If they don’t like the way things turn out through the existing legal and constitutional processes, they’ll overthrow it all.
Say, rather, they’ll try to overthrow it all. But if they reach the point where it looks like they might succeed, they will discover that most people aren’t fans. And simply won’t put up with it. Likely to be rather a shock to their systems, having reality intrude like that.
And yes, “they” can equally well apply to rhe political hacks on the Supreme Court. Being a serious minority, and seriously out of line with the nation, simply won’t work.
Say, rather, they’ll try to overthrow it all.
I’d say it depends on whether military leadership can be co-opted. Cops as well, and that’s probably a lower bar.
And short of overthrowing it all, they can FUBAR it enough to bring useful progress on any given topic to something between an extremely slow walk and a total halt.
See also COVID vaccination rates in the good old red states.
Being a serious minority, and seriously out of line with the nation, simply won’t work.
I generally agree with this, especially long term. But a lot will get broken – is getting broken, has already been broken – along the way.
Say, rather, they’ll try to overthrow it all.
I’d say it depends on whether military leadership can be co-opted. Cops as well, and that’s probably a lower bar.
And short of overthrowing it all, they can FUBAR it enough to bring useful progress on any given topic to something between an extremely slow walk and a total halt.
See also COVID vaccination rates in the good old red states.
Being a serious minority, and seriously out of line with the nation, simply won’t work.
I generally agree with this, especially long term. But a lot will get broken – is getting broken, has already been broken – along the way.
According to Plato those hoplites need a very thorough brainwashing and indoctrination to keep them from just taking over the state. To be precise, he compares them to guard dogs that have to be trained from birth NOT to attack their owners but only those the owners consider a threat.
And, btw, the hoplites were the wealthy citizens that could afford the kit. The poorer citizens could row the triremes instead. Iirc there was quite some tension after the Persian wars when those rowing have-nots demanded equal respect as the bronzeclad haves which the latter were unwilling to provide.
According to Plato those hoplites need a very thorough brainwashing and indoctrination to keep them from just taking over the state. To be precise, he compares them to guard dogs that have to be trained from birth NOT to attack their owners but only those the owners consider a threat.
And, btw, the hoplites were the wealthy citizens that could afford the kit. The poorer citizens could row the triremes instead. Iirc there was quite some tension after the Persian wars when those rowing have-nots demanded equal respect as the bronzeclad haves which the latter were unwilling to provide.
Say, rather, they’ll try to overthrow it all. But if they reach the point where it looks like they might succeed, they will discover that most people aren’t fans. And simply won’t put up with it.
wj, sometimes I think your optimism will survive anything the world throws at it. Whether most people aren’t fans, or are, will be immaterial. For “most people” to actually do anything to counter it, things would have to be so dire that it would probably be too late. If January 6th had succeeded, the Senate had not certified the vote, and Trump had been declared the winner after a week or two of crazy claims and constant reinforcement on Fox, I can’t even begin to do the thought experiment about what would have come next. Would anybody else care to take a try, or is it just too close to the bone?
Say, rather, they’ll try to overthrow it all. But if they reach the point where it looks like they might succeed, they will discover that most people aren’t fans. And simply won’t put up with it.
wj, sometimes I think your optimism will survive anything the world throws at it. Whether most people aren’t fans, or are, will be immaterial. For “most people” to actually do anything to counter it, things would have to be so dire that it would probably be too late. If January 6th had succeeded, the Senate had not certified the vote, and Trump had been declared the winner after a week or two of crazy claims and constant reinforcement on Fox, I can’t even begin to do the thought experiment about what would have come next. Would anybody else care to take a try, or is it just too close to the bone?
The difference between the hoplites and self-appointed militia bands is that the hoplites were accountable to the civil authority. The difference between the militia as a historical institution known to and familiar to the founders and today’s self-appointed militias, likewise.
Groups of people who, at their own initiative, take up arms against civil authority, are not a militia as understood by the founders. They are not the militia referenced in the 2nd A. They are insurrectionists.
Such groups were well known to the founders, see also Shay’s rebellion and the Whiskey rebellion. The folks who participated in those actions had legitimate complaints, but their rebellions were treated as insurrections and were put down, by force. In fact, they were put down by the actual militia of the time.
To GFTNC’s question, Trump’s attempt to remain in office by having Congress refuse to certify the election results was an attempted coup. It’s as close as this country has ever come to a failure of the peaceful and legitimate transfer of power. I have no idea where we would be had he succeeded.
The difference between the hoplites and self-appointed militia bands is that the hoplites were accountable to the civil authority. The difference between the militia as a historical institution known to and familiar to the founders and today’s self-appointed militias, likewise.
Groups of people who, at their own initiative, take up arms against civil authority, are not a militia as understood by the founders. They are not the militia referenced in the 2nd A. They are insurrectionists.
Such groups were well known to the founders, see also Shay’s rebellion and the Whiskey rebellion. The folks who participated in those actions had legitimate complaints, but their rebellions were treated as insurrections and were put down, by force. In fact, they were put down by the actual militia of the time.
To GFTNC’s question, Trump’s attempt to remain in office by having Congress refuse to certify the election results was an attempted coup. It’s as close as this country has ever come to a failure of the peaceful and legitimate transfer of power. I have no idea where we would be had he succeeded.
If January 6th had succeeded, the Senate had not certified the vote, and Trump had been declared the winner after a week or two of crazy claims and constant reinforcement on Fox, I can’t even begin to do the thought experiment about what would have come next.
OK, an optimist’s view of a pessimistic scenario. 😉
First, while the Senate might have contrived to reelect Pence as Vice President, the decision on who is President falls to the House. And I can’t see the House, with a Democratic majority, setting aside the actual vote. So, Trump wouldn’t have gotten reelected regardless.
To get himself reelected, Trump would have needed his shock troop to actually kill some significant number of members of Congress. (More precisely, some significantly larger number of Democratic members than Republican members. A level of precision I doubt they were capable of.)
Then, they would have needed the remaining members to agree that the reduced number were adequate to act. And that they were brave enough to, essentially, vote themselves out of existance — because setting aside the election results in Trump’s favor would have done exactly that.
And finally, the military, in particular, would have had to accept the whole charade. Which I don’t see happening. There are, admittedly, some MAGA types in the ranks. But the upper ranks tend to take their oaths to “support, protect, and defend the Constitution” very seriously indeed. They would accept the election, or reelection, of someone they dispise. They would not tolerate a coup like this.
I would also note this. The 2nd Amendment crazies tend to favor Trump. And they have far more guns . . . currently. But I am far from the only citizen who thinks differently and has been trained how to use a gun. Sure, it would take time for us to arm up. But in a worst case scenario, we could and would. And we would be left in a situation not unlike the early Civil War: one side might have a head start. But the infrastructure for a war is mostly controlled by the other.
If January 6th had succeeded, the Senate had not certified the vote, and Trump had been declared the winner after a week or two of crazy claims and constant reinforcement on Fox, I can’t even begin to do the thought experiment about what would have come next.
OK, an optimist’s view of a pessimistic scenario. 😉
First, while the Senate might have contrived to reelect Pence as Vice President, the decision on who is President falls to the House. And I can’t see the House, with a Democratic majority, setting aside the actual vote. So, Trump wouldn’t have gotten reelected regardless.
To get himself reelected, Trump would have needed his shock troop to actually kill some significant number of members of Congress. (More precisely, some significantly larger number of Democratic members than Republican members. A level of precision I doubt they were capable of.)
Then, they would have needed the remaining members to agree that the reduced number were adequate to act. And that they were brave enough to, essentially, vote themselves out of existance — because setting aside the election results in Trump’s favor would have done exactly that.
And finally, the military, in particular, would have had to accept the whole charade. Which I don’t see happening. There are, admittedly, some MAGA types in the ranks. But the upper ranks tend to take their oaths to “support, protect, and defend the Constitution” very seriously indeed. They would accept the election, or reelection, of someone they dispise. They would not tolerate a coup like this.
I would also note this. The 2nd Amendment crazies tend to favor Trump. And they have far more guns . . . currently. But I am far from the only citizen who thinks differently and has been trained how to use a gun. Sure, it would take time for us to arm up. But in a worst case scenario, we could and would. And we would be left in a situation not unlike the early Civil War: one side might have a head start. But the infrastructure for a war is mostly controlled by the other.
The way I remember it, the vote would go to the House but not on a 1-representative-1-vote base but by 1 per state, so the GOP would have been in the majority there.
The way I remember it, the vote would go to the House but not on a 1-representative-1-vote base but by 1 per state, so the GOP would have been in the majority there.
The vote could go that way. But the criteria to get there are not crystal clear. And thwarting a coup attempt is a big motivation to interpret the rules so it doesn’t. Which would outrage the MAGAots, but that’s not really a disincentive.
The vote could go that way. But the criteria to get there are not crystal clear. And thwarting a coup attempt is a big motivation to interpret the rules so it doesn’t. Which would outrage the MAGAots, but that’s not really a disincentive.
The thing about all these descriptions of all the things that would have to happen for The Umber Menace to be able to overthrow the election result is that they assume that all of the plans have to work for the government to be overthrown. But that’s not the case. They don’t need to win, they just need to stop government from working and convince enough people to ignore the old protocols and we are left with a hollowed out patchwork of governmental functions that are strung along in order to prevent economic collapse.
The only thing that keeps the United States a functioning nation state is continued agreement to follow the protocols outlined in the Constitution. It doesn’t sustain itself or enforce itself.
Most of the US would only bestir itself enough to keep the lights on.
The thing about all these descriptions of all the things that would have to happen for The Umber Menace to be able to overthrow the election result is that they assume that all of the plans have to work for the government to be overthrown. But that’s not the case. They don’t need to win, they just need to stop government from working and convince enough people to ignore the old protocols and we are left with a hollowed out patchwork of governmental functions that are strung along in order to prevent economic collapse.
The only thing that keeps the United States a functioning nation state is continued agreement to follow the protocols outlined in the Constitution. It doesn’t sustain itself or enforce itself.
Most of the US would only bestir itself enough to keep the lights on.
They don’t need to win, they just need to stop government from working and convince enough people to ignore the old protocols and we are left with a hollowed out patchwork of governmental functions that are strung along in order to prevent economic collapse.
Pretty sure they think they only need to throw enough sand in the gears, too. And from the perspective of the libertarian donors, that’s quite possibly true.
But to keep Trump in power? There they, and you, are wrong. “Enough people” to ignore the old protocols is a lot bigger than either of you may believe. A Congress which does nothing will probably be tolerated. A violation of the peaceful transfer of power? Rather a different deal.
Put it this way. I would be, indeed I am, upset at the Congressional Republicans sabotage of our national government. And especially with the damage they have done to the judicial branch. I’m willing to work to defeat them, and to donate to defeat them. But that’s it.
But a coup? Half a century ago, I took an oath to the Constitution. It didn’t come with an expiration date. I don’t own a gun, and I haven’t fired one since I left the Air Force decades ago. But against a coup? Let’s just say I’ve started thinking seriously about what kind of gun to get, should it become necessary. Somehow, I suspect that I am far from alone.
They don’t need to win, they just need to stop government from working and convince enough people to ignore the old protocols and we are left with a hollowed out patchwork of governmental functions that are strung along in order to prevent economic collapse.
Pretty sure they think they only need to throw enough sand in the gears, too. And from the perspective of the libertarian donors, that’s quite possibly true.
But to keep Trump in power? There they, and you, are wrong. “Enough people” to ignore the old protocols is a lot bigger than either of you may believe. A Congress which does nothing will probably be tolerated. A violation of the peaceful transfer of power? Rather a different deal.
Put it this way. I would be, indeed I am, upset at the Congressional Republicans sabotage of our national government. And especially with the damage they have done to the judicial branch. I’m willing to work to defeat them, and to donate to defeat them. But that’s it.
But a coup? Half a century ago, I took an oath to the Constitution. It didn’t come with an expiration date. I don’t own a gun, and I haven’t fired one since I left the Air Force decades ago. But against a coup? Let’s just say I’ve started thinking seriously about what kind of gun to get, should it become necessary. Somehow, I suspect that I am far from alone.
wj, I think you know I too am an optimist. Alas, there are some very disturbing facts to contend with.
Lindsey Graham’s calculation that the GOP has no choice but to stick with Trump seems to have been widely accepted in the party. Probably he is right. Despite the structural advantages the GOP enjoys in the Senate and Electoral College, popular vote margins are very much against them.
I have never owned a gun and only once (at Boy Scout camp) fired at a target, though I am confident I could become proficient. Could I aim at another human being, though? I doubt it will come to that (there’s that optimism again) but my predictions are not 100% reliable.
I’m grateful to have met you. Be well.
wj, I think you know I too am an optimist. Alas, there are some very disturbing facts to contend with.
Lindsey Graham’s calculation that the GOP has no choice but to stick with Trump seems to have been widely accepted in the party. Probably he is right. Despite the structural advantages the GOP enjoys in the Senate and Electoral College, popular vote margins are very much against them.
I have never owned a gun and only once (at Boy Scout camp) fired at a target, though I am confident I could become proficient. Could I aim at another human being, though? I doubt it will come to that (there’s that optimism again) but my predictions are not 100% reliable.
I’m grateful to have met you. Be well.
The Umber Menace has more power as a pretender to a contested presidency in a non-functioning ex-republic than he does as an ex-president in a functioning one. Biden has less power in a non-functioning ex-republic than he does as president in a marginally functioning one.
This is not about winning, it’s about not allowing the other side to win.
I’m sure that many people would be drawn into a widening insurrection on either side, but a lot of effort would be put into preservation of the minimal function required to prevent collapse. If the shell of federal function continues, then the fight turns to trying to enforce civil rights on all of the disputed culture war issues.
Where will you take that gun? Where do the people that oppose the GOP go to try to force compliance? What’s to be done if the governors of deep red states and the sheriffs of deep red counties just refuse to comply with federal standards?
It’s not the willingness to take up arms I doubt, it’s the ability to apply it in ways that allow you to control occupied territory.
Whether or not one side can rule, we are perilously close to becoming a failed state.
The Umber Menace has more power as a pretender to a contested presidency in a non-functioning ex-republic than he does as an ex-president in a functioning one. Biden has less power in a non-functioning ex-republic than he does as president in a marginally functioning one.
This is not about winning, it’s about not allowing the other side to win.
I’m sure that many people would be drawn into a widening insurrection on either side, but a lot of effort would be put into preservation of the minimal function required to prevent collapse. If the shell of federal function continues, then the fight turns to trying to enforce civil rights on all of the disputed culture war issues.
Where will you take that gun? Where do the people that oppose the GOP go to try to force compliance? What’s to be done if the governors of deep red states and the sheriffs of deep red counties just refuse to comply with federal standards?
It’s not the willingness to take up arms I doubt, it’s the ability to apply it in ways that allow you to control occupied territory.
Whether or not one side can rule, we are perilously close to becoming a failed state.
Where will you take that gun?
That is, of course, the challenge.
My suspicion is that it would end up from this side mostly being about defending those just trying to do their (government) jobs. Say at the county seat on election evening. Perhaps not my own county; but perhaps a nearby one.
What’s to be done if the governors of deep red states and the sheriffs of deep red counties just refuse to comply with federal standards?
What happens whenever Federal law gets broken. Think US Marshals, FBI, etc. showing up with cuffs. If necessary, with as much back-up as required — even a very red sheriff’s department doesn’t have the manpower to match the Feds. And it isn’t necessary to go in every place. A couple high-profile arrests would have the same impact as a couple highly visible firings for failure to get vaccinated: most of the rest fold.
Where will you take that gun?
That is, of course, the challenge.
My suspicion is that it would end up from this side mostly being about defending those just trying to do their (government) jobs. Say at the county seat on election evening. Perhaps not my own county; but perhaps a nearby one.
What’s to be done if the governors of deep red states and the sheriffs of deep red counties just refuse to comply with federal standards?
What happens whenever Federal law gets broken. Think US Marshals, FBI, etc. showing up with cuffs. If necessary, with as much back-up as required — even a very red sheriff’s department doesn’t have the manpower to match the Feds. And it isn’t necessary to go in every place. A couple high-profile arrests would have the same impact as a couple highly visible firings for failure to get vaccinated: most of the rest fold.
This may or may not be the appropriate thread for this link …. I can’t remember which is which any longer:
https://www.wired.com/story/the-quest-to-trap-carbon-in-stone-and-beat-climate-change/?utm_source=pocket-newtab
This may or may not be the appropriate thread for this link …. I can’t remember which is which any longer:
https://www.wired.com/story/the-quest-to-trap-carbon-in-stone-and-beat-climate-change/?utm_source=pocket-newtab
wj, sometimes I think your optimism will survive anything the world throws at it.
wj is in California. I’m in Colorado and am probably at least as optimistic as he is. My friend the anthropologist and I discuss the topic of “western optimism” occasionally. Here’s what my friend and I put at the top of the reasons why.
Economics. In the West, “urban problems” derive from almost unmanageable population and job growth. I suggest that the construction crane ought to be Denver’s official bird; he points out that LA, San Francisco, Seattle, and Portland all have higher crane counts. Back in the day when Amazon was doing HQ2, I read any number of East Coast pundits who said flat out, “Denver can’t build that much office space in the 15-year Amazon window.” Even without Amazon, Denver built that much in only three years.
Voting. Voting is getting easier, even in red states. Nevada, Utah and Hawaii have switched to state of the art vote by mail systems. California went to full vote by mail. Near automatic voter registration is the rule, not the exception. Consider a comparison between Georgia and Arizona, both states with Republican trifectas (Arizona’s quite narrow). In both states several anti-democratic bills were introduced in 2021. In Georgia, they passed. In Arizona, they didn’t.
Climate change. There is no public debate about whether it’s happening. Drought, fire, and floods can’t be ignored. States aren’t waiting for federal action to switch to low- or no-carbon electricity. Even Wyoming, where 40% of US thermal coal is mined, is accepting that there’s little future in coal. But they have the best onshore wind resource in the country, and the biggest wind farm in North America is under construction there. There are going to sell a lot of wind power to Southern California when the Diablo Canyon nukes shut down.
Distance from the main stream media. I used to make bets with people that on a given day, if they checked the NYTimes and WaPost to see what the main stream media thought was the important news of the morning, then checked six or seven big dailies in the West (eg, the leading paper in Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, LA, Phoenix, Salt Lake City, and Denver), you wouldn’t know that they were talking about the same country. I won much more often than I lost.
wj, sometimes I think your optimism will survive anything the world throws at it.
wj is in California. I’m in Colorado and am probably at least as optimistic as he is. My friend the anthropologist and I discuss the topic of “western optimism” occasionally. Here’s what my friend and I put at the top of the reasons why.
Economics. In the West, “urban problems” derive from almost unmanageable population and job growth. I suggest that the construction crane ought to be Denver’s official bird; he points out that LA, San Francisco, Seattle, and Portland all have higher crane counts. Back in the day when Amazon was doing HQ2, I read any number of East Coast pundits who said flat out, “Denver can’t build that much office space in the 15-year Amazon window.” Even without Amazon, Denver built that much in only three years.
Voting. Voting is getting easier, even in red states. Nevada, Utah and Hawaii have switched to state of the art vote by mail systems. California went to full vote by mail. Near automatic voter registration is the rule, not the exception. Consider a comparison between Georgia and Arizona, both states with Republican trifectas (Arizona’s quite narrow). In both states several anti-democratic bills were introduced in 2021. In Georgia, they passed. In Arizona, they didn’t.
Climate change. There is no public debate about whether it’s happening. Drought, fire, and floods can’t be ignored. States aren’t waiting for federal action to switch to low- or no-carbon electricity. Even Wyoming, where 40% of US thermal coal is mined, is accepting that there’s little future in coal. But they have the best onshore wind resource in the country, and the biggest wind farm in North America is under construction there. There are going to sell a lot of wind power to Southern California when the Diablo Canyon nukes shut down.
Distance from the main stream media. I used to make bets with people that on a given day, if they checked the NYTimes and WaPost to see what the main stream media thought was the important news of the morning, then checked six or seven big dailies in the West (eg, the leading paper in Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, LA, Phoenix, Salt Lake City, and Denver), you wouldn’t know that they were talking about the same country. I won much more often than I lost.
I deleted a long, pessimistic post in which I ended up agreeing with nous’s prediction @10.08 as the more likely but less extreme outcome than the one I feared.
Michael Cain, wj: from your various lips to God’s ear, and I only hope for more than the west of the USA (which I guess could end up providing a shining counter-example to the rest of the country, after a while).
I deleted a long, pessimistic post in which I ended up agreeing with nous’s prediction @10.08 as the more likely but less extreme outcome than the one I feared.
Michael Cain, wj: from your various lips to God’s ear, and I only hope for more than the west of the USA (which I guess could end up providing a shining counter-example to the rest of the country, after a while).
The western US, for all its growth and prosperity, has a lot simmering under the surface. California has a profound housing crisis and water is likely to become a serious issue. I see favelas in the not too distant future. Northern California, southeast Oregon, and Idaho have serious white sovereignty vibes and a deep anti-federal streak. Western Colorado coughed up the hairball that is Boebert. Utah has a deep COVID anti-government thing going ATM. Arizona and Nevada are going to have serious climate crisis. Montana and Wyoming are going to turn into greenwashed tax havens for the super rich, which is going to add fuel to the sovereignty issues in Idaho.
Optimism needs to roll up its sleeves and figure out a way to stitch together those divides or we will end up with a loose confederation of urban leagues trying to keep a lid on rural militias.
The western US, for all its growth and prosperity, has a lot simmering under the surface. California has a profound housing crisis and water is likely to become a serious issue. I see favelas in the not too distant future. Northern California, southeast Oregon, and Idaho have serious white sovereignty vibes and a deep anti-federal streak. Western Colorado coughed up the hairball that is Boebert. Utah has a deep COVID anti-government thing going ATM. Arizona and Nevada are going to have serious climate crisis. Montana and Wyoming are going to turn into greenwashed tax havens for the super rich, which is going to add fuel to the sovereignty issues in Idaho.
Optimism needs to roll up its sleeves and figure out a way to stitch together those divides or we will end up with a loose confederation of urban leagues trying to keep a lid on rural militias.
California has a profound housing crisis and water is likely to become a serious issue.
Thus nous demonstrating western optimism. 😉
On any objective measure, California reached crisis status on water in the middle of the last century.** We built some enormous infrastructure projects, which kept us from moving from crisis to utter disaster. Temporarily. But the situation keeps getting worse. And the next supply source would involve an aqueduct across Oregon from the Columbia River. I don’t see that actually happening. But it says something that the idea even occurs.
** Fights over water have been a staple of California politics my whole life. The only reason they weren’t worse, and far worse for the environment, is that the folks where the water would go were small-government fiscal conservatives. Made it harder to get their votes for big government projects.
California has a profound housing crisis and water is likely to become a serious issue.
Thus nous demonstrating western optimism. 😉
On any objective measure, California reached crisis status on water in the middle of the last century.** We built some enormous infrastructure projects, which kept us from moving from crisis to utter disaster. Temporarily. But the situation keeps getting worse. And the next supply source would involve an aqueduct across Oregon from the Columbia River. I don’t see that actually happening. But it says something that the idea even occurs.
** Fights over water have been a staple of California politics my whole life. The only reason they weren’t worse, and far worse for the environment, is that the folks where the water would go were small-government fiscal conservatives. Made it harder to get their votes for big government projects.
Optimism needs to roll up its sleeves and figure out a way to stitch together those divides or we will end up with a loose confederation of urban leagues trying to keep a lid on rural militias.
From time to time the rural radicals get separation items onto the ballot. And what happens? Except for the counties with the smallest populations, they lose. Colorado’s 51st State movement got resolutions for the county officials to open discussions with the state on 11 county ballots. They won in five. Those five have tiny populations, less than 10,000 people. Collectively, across the 11 counties, the proposal went down in flames. There may be small groups of anarchists, but there are not broadly supported rural militia battalions waiting to roll into the western cities.
Optimism needs to roll up its sleeves and figure out a way to stitch together those divides or we will end up with a loose confederation of urban leagues trying to keep a lid on rural militias.
From time to time the rural radicals get separation items onto the ballot. And what happens? Except for the counties with the smallest populations, they lose. Colorado’s 51st State movement got resolutions for the county officials to open discussions with the state on 11 county ballots. They won in five. Those five have tiny populations, less than 10,000 people. Collectively, across the 11 counties, the proposal went down in flames. There may be small groups of anarchists, but there are not broadly supported rural militia battalions waiting to roll into the western cities.
And the next supply source would involve an aqueduct across Oregon from the Columbia River. I don’t see that actually happening. But it says something that the idea even occurs.
It’s much easier (conceptually) to buy out enough Idaho farmers and divert a million acre-feet or so from the Snake. IIRC, only one relatively small mountain range to get over, and then it flows into the Green River and is downhill all the way to the Gulf of California. I don’t remember the elevation changes, but believe it was feasible for the plan to be energy-positive. Not good for the salmon, though.
And the next supply source would involve an aqueduct across Oregon from the Columbia River. I don’t see that actually happening. But it says something that the idea even occurs.
It’s much easier (conceptually) to buy out enough Idaho farmers and divert a million acre-feet or so from the Snake. IIRC, only one relatively small mountain range to get over, and then it flows into the Green River and is downhill all the way to the Gulf of California. I don’t remember the elevation changes, but believe it was feasible for the plan to be energy-positive. Not good for the salmon, though.
There may be small groups of anarchists, but there are not broadly supported rural militia battalions waiting to roll into the western cities.
I don’t expect that there would be such things. What we will most likely have are increasingly frequent incidents of mass violence (shootings, bombings) and mass protests (armed and otherwise), selectively and differentially dealt with by law enforcement agencies that are largely sympathetic at the staff level.
Violence will be much more diffuse and much more tactical than open conflict. It’s likely to be terror attrition aimed at wearing down public resolve and attacks on whatever critical infrastructure the groups oppose.
Look to the IRA/Sinn Fein for a model of what to expect (ironic, since the US right has been aligned with the Orangemen). Today’s GOP is already operating in a Sinn Fein sort of mode.
There may be small groups of anarchists, but there are not broadly supported rural militia battalions waiting to roll into the western cities.
I don’t expect that there would be such things. What we will most likely have are increasingly frequent incidents of mass violence (shootings, bombings) and mass protests (armed and otherwise), selectively and differentially dealt with by law enforcement agencies that are largely sympathetic at the staff level.
Violence will be much more diffuse and much more tactical than open conflict. It’s likely to be terror attrition aimed at wearing down public resolve and attacks on whatever critical infrastructure the groups oppose.
Look to the IRA/Sinn Fein for a model of what to expect (ironic, since the US right has been aligned with the Orangemen). Today’s GOP is already operating in a Sinn Fein sort of mode.
Here’s another bit of western optimism to brighten your day
https://www.dataforprogress.org/blog/2021/12/22/redistricting-is-going-surprisingly-well-for-democrats
Here’s another bit of western optimism to brighten your day
https://www.dataforprogress.org/blog/2021/12/22/redistricting-is-going-surprisingly-well-for-democrats
it’s possible for a pretty small number of people to have a truly large impact on other folks’ lives. see also, the Jim Crow era Klan and similar organizations. which went on for something like 100 years.
I won’t pretend to understand the complaints of the folks who support Trump. they make up somewhere between a third and half the country, and appear to be more than sufficiently motivated to wreak havoc. See also last January 6.
Or, you know, see also a Board of Health session about Covid protocols in Beverly, MA, about five miles from me here in blue coastal elitist MA, which ended with threats to burn down the home of the mayor of Boston. Unclear what the mayor of Boston had to do with Covid protocols in Beverly, but mental clarity does not appear to a strong suit with some folks.
If they don’t get their way, they’ll FUBAR it for everyone. Guns or other forms of violence optional, of course, but not to be ruled out.
I’m not sure exactly what it is these people want, other than to not be bothered by anybody else. That’s nice work if you can get it, but it’s less and less likely that it’s going to be an option, because there are more and more people around.
I really don’t know where this all goes, but I have a hard time being as optimistic as you all.
it’s possible for a pretty small number of people to have a truly large impact on other folks’ lives. see also, the Jim Crow era Klan and similar organizations. which went on for something like 100 years.
I won’t pretend to understand the complaints of the folks who support Trump. they make up somewhere between a third and half the country, and appear to be more than sufficiently motivated to wreak havoc. See also last January 6.
Or, you know, see also a Board of Health session about Covid protocols in Beverly, MA, about five miles from me here in blue coastal elitist MA, which ended with threats to burn down the home of the mayor of Boston. Unclear what the mayor of Boston had to do with Covid protocols in Beverly, but mental clarity does not appear to a strong suit with some folks.
If they don’t get their way, they’ll FUBAR it for everyone. Guns or other forms of violence optional, of course, but not to be ruled out.
I’m not sure exactly what it is these people want, other than to not be bothered by anybody else. That’s nice work if you can get it, but it’s less and less likely that it’s going to be an option, because there are more and more people around.
I really don’t know where this all goes, but I have a hard time being as optimistic as you all.
The optimists (all two of them) are from the west. Personally, while hoping they’re right, at least in that limited way, I myself am very pessimistic and becoming more so. Where the US is concerned, I fear 2022, and 2024 even more. I hope to God I am wrong.
The optimists (all two of them) are from the west. Personally, while hoping they’re right, at least in that limited way, I myself am very pessimistic and becoming more so. Where the US is concerned, I fear 2022, and 2024 even more. I hope to God I am wrong.
Speaking of Sinn Fein
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/dec/28/sinn-fein-on-path-to-power-ireland
So I guess we should look forward to 2220?
I also have to make an observation about optimism and pessimism that I have had difficult framing because it is just an observation, folks will have to decide whether it applies to them or not. But optimism feels to me like it partakes too much of privilege. As Russell notes, there is a large chunk of the country that support Trump and that suggests to me that at least that many don’t understand privilege and will view any attempt at fairer distribution and outcomes as being unfair to them.
The problem with both worldviews is that the ‘evidence’ of events doesn’t really fall into neat categories. I’m heartened by the Chilean election and other developments in South America
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/12/24/chile-election-boric-2021-latin-america-top-stories/
but I’m also thinking that what brought Boric to power was basically a rise in the mass transit fees
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/18/chile-students-mass-fare-dodging-expands-into-city-wide-protest
https://www.vox.com/world/2019/10/29/20938402/santiago-chile-protests-2019-riots-metro-fare-pinera
When we live in a time where a 4 cent increase in subway fares can trigger things like this, I find optimism a tough row to hoe.
Speaking of Sinn Fein
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/dec/28/sinn-fein-on-path-to-power-ireland
So I guess we should look forward to 2220?
I also have to make an observation about optimism and pessimism that I have had difficult framing because it is just an observation, folks will have to decide whether it applies to them or not. But optimism feels to me like it partakes too much of privilege. As Russell notes, there is a large chunk of the country that support Trump and that suggests to me that at least that many don’t understand privilege and will view any attempt at fairer distribution and outcomes as being unfair to them.
The problem with both worldviews is that the ‘evidence’ of events doesn’t really fall into neat categories. I’m heartened by the Chilean election and other developments in South America
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/12/24/chile-election-boric-2021-latin-america-top-stories/
but I’m also thinking that what brought Boric to power was basically a rise in the mass transit fees
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/18/chile-students-mass-fare-dodging-expands-into-city-wide-protest
https://www.vox.com/world/2019/10/29/20938402/santiago-chile-protests-2019-riots-metro-fare-pinera
When we live in a time where a 4 cent increase in subway fares can trigger things like this, I find optimism a tough row to hoe.
I’m an optimist in that I’m a teacher – an inherently optimistic and idealistic pursuit if ever there was one. That said, I’m the sort of conservative that wants to err on the side of extra mitigation and margins of error when assessing long-term risks. I’d rather be less optimistic in my planning and be able to dial things back and feel sheepish when things end up better than I had planned.
I’m an optimist in that I’m a teacher – an inherently optimistic and idealistic pursuit if ever there was one. That said, I’m the sort of conservative that wants to err on the side of extra mitigation and margins of error when assessing long-term risks. I’d rather be less optimistic in my planning and be able to dial things back and feel sheepish when things end up better than I had planned.
Well, teaching has generally been a conservative endeavour in that you are teaching things that are thought worth preserving and passing on. Even if you aim at teaching skills, you are generally teaching skills that you feel have been proven to help.
This conservatism, at least here in Japan, came with a pretty high cost when there is the kind of disruption that COVID has brought. I don’t have any idea of numbers, but there were more than a few teachers who would come on to some of the lists set up to help and say they had never used a computer or only used it for facebook and email, running their classes entirely with paper. This seemed more common in the big cities where a one hour commute to get to the school would be a minimum commute to get to the classroom. This was propped up by schools that often still did everything on paper.
Well, teaching has generally been a conservative endeavour in that you are teaching things that are thought worth preserving and passing on. Even if you aim at teaching skills, you are generally teaching skills that you feel have been proven to help.
This conservatism, at least here in Japan, came with a pretty high cost when there is the kind of disruption that COVID has brought. I don’t have any idea of numbers, but there were more than a few teachers who would come on to some of the lists set up to help and say they had never used a computer or only used it for facebook and email, running their classes entirely with paper. This seemed more common in the big cities where a one hour commute to get to the school would be a minimum commute to get to the classroom. This was propped up by schools that often still did everything on paper.
A book(s) review:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/01/03/how-politics-got-so-polarized
I’m an optimist in the Nietzschean sense of accepting my life as I have lived it … amor fati.
As for the next Civil War referenced in the review, I don’t see that the conservative movement has given us any choice but to plan to kill all of them when they start it … the macguffin being of course, as one reviewed book’s author points out, that they already have, which would be obvious to us if we were reading about events in this country over the past several years .. let’s go back to the Oklahoma City bombing, since the building I and my now-ex-wife was cased by the murderers .. as though they were happening in another country.
Our foreign policy establishment would be bracing for upheaval and chaos in THAT country, wouldn’t they?
What if 1/6/21 had occurred in Ottawa? Hanh?
But, to allude to the article again, I’m still buying my conservative friends a chocolate malt on occasion.
Maybe I’m memorizing the whites of their eyes for when they are coming at me for less friendly reasons.
A book(s) review:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/01/03/how-politics-got-so-polarized
I’m an optimist in the Nietzschean sense of accepting my life as I have lived it … amor fati.
As for the next Civil War referenced in the review, I don’t see that the conservative movement has given us any choice but to plan to kill all of them when they start it … the macguffin being of course, as one reviewed book’s author points out, that they already have, which would be obvious to us if we were reading about events in this country over the past several years .. let’s go back to the Oklahoma City bombing, since the building I and my now-ex-wife was cased by the murderers .. as though they were happening in another country.
Our foreign policy establishment would be bracing for upheaval and chaos in THAT country, wouldn’t they?
What if 1/6/21 had occurred in Ottawa? Hanh?
But, to allude to the article again, I’m still buying my conservative friends a chocolate malt on occasion.
Maybe I’m memorizing the whites of their eyes for when they are coming at me for less friendly reasons.
nous, your strategy looks sound to me. “Hope for the best, expect the worst” comes to mind.
russell mentioned “somewhere between a third and half the country.” I doubt it’s really that many, though it’s certainly a larger number than I like.
What I cannot understand is the people who cling to Trump despite repeated humiliation and disdain. Politicians in Congress, OK, they are ambitious and want votes. But the people who work closely with him? What is their deal?
nous, your strategy looks sound to me. “Hope for the best, expect the worst” comes to mind.
russell mentioned “somewhere between a third and half the country.” I doubt it’s really that many, though it’s certainly a larger number than I like.
What I cannot understand is the people who cling to Trump despite repeated humiliation and disdain. Politicians in Congress, OK, they are ambitious and want votes. But the people who work closely with him? What is their deal?
.. the building I and my ex-wife worked in.
It was bad enough that the husband of one of my best friends was murdered along with so many other innocents (public employees, now hated even more by the vermin conservative movement) in the actual bombing of the Murrah building.
All of the 1/6 crew of fucks are thousands of Timothy McVeighs.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/24/politics/january-6-video-capitol-hill-riot/index.html
And remember Democratic Party public servants were forced to sequester from the violence, from being fucking murdered by the Republican base, invited to the insurrection by a subhuman Republican President and his thug killers in Congress, with unmasked, anti-vax subhuman Republicans, the aforementioned thug tax-hating killers, breathing on them.
No chocolate malts for any of them.
Only bullets to answer theirs.
I’m not a Wall Street sort of optimist, the lying kind who insults our intelligence. I mean, I don’t tell you the asteroid or comet that is going to destroy all life on the planet tomorrow at noon has been discounted by the all-seeing bullshit market and you should consider buying stocks of companies that sell, sunglasses, flame retardant, and pillows you can scream into, probably from a fascist pillow jagoff, in it for the very short term.
.. the building I and my ex-wife worked in.
It was bad enough that the husband of one of my best friends was murdered along with so many other innocents (public employees, now hated even more by the vermin conservative movement) in the actual bombing of the Murrah building.
All of the 1/6 crew of fucks are thousands of Timothy McVeighs.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/24/politics/january-6-video-capitol-hill-riot/index.html
And remember Democratic Party public servants were forced to sequester from the violence, from being fucking murdered by the Republican base, invited to the insurrection by a subhuman Republican President and his thug killers in Congress, with unmasked, anti-vax subhuman Republicans, the aforementioned thug tax-hating killers, breathing on them.
No chocolate malts for any of them.
Only bullets to answer theirs.
I’m not a Wall Street sort of optimist, the lying kind who insults our intelligence. I mean, I don’t tell you the asteroid or comet that is going to destroy all life on the planet tomorrow at noon has been discounted by the all-seeing bullshit market and you should consider buying stocks of companies that sell, sunglasses, flame retardant, and pillows you can scream into, probably from a fascist pillow jagoff, in it for the very short term.
no1, you watched Don’t Look Up didn’t you? Take a break (or a Xanax? Just kidding.)
no1, you watched Don’t Look Up didn’t you? Take a break (or a Xanax? Just kidding.)
I wrote it.
I play the comet.
I wrote it.
I play the comet.
The conversation here has had Radiohead’s “Optimistic” going through my head most of the day:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1On-ZHfTWOo
The conversation here has had Radiohead’s “Optimistic” going through my head most of the day:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1On-ZHfTWOo
russell mentioned “somewhere between a third and half the country.”
The popular vote in 2020 was Biden 51.3%, Trump 46.9%. Trump got 1/3 of the popular vote in Massa-freaking-chusetts.
If you have information I’m not aware of that tells you my estimate is overblown, I’d love to see it. No sarcasm.
I’m not a Wall Street sort of optimist
I’m the kind of optimist who says the Black Plague killed as much as 20% of the human population in less than 10 years – 30 to 50% of the population of Europe – and we got through that, right?
It’s true, I’m no fun at parties.
The United States will get through this mess, which is to say, there will still be a country called that, located in North America, people will here and go about their daily lives etc etc etc. we’re not going to be reduced to a smoking pile of rubble. it’s just unclear what the damage will be, and what things will look like when we’re on the other side of it.
Assuming there is an “other side of it”, which is not a given. All of the folks supporting Trump didn’t just land here from some other planet, they’ve been here basically forever, and have been sitting on the toxic crap that Trump has tapped into for god knows how long. None of that is going away anytime soon.
I’ll be more sanguine if and when I see the principals behind 1/6/21 in jail. For example. That was, plainly, an attempted coup. If we can’t figure out how to address it forcefully and effectively, I’m not sure what the hell we’re about.
you watched Don’t Look Up didn’t you?
Worst case: we’ll leave the world to the tardigrades and methane-breathing worms. Them, and whatever evolves that can live on plastic. The crows and rats and cockroaches will feast on our bones.
See, optimism!
russell mentioned “somewhere between a third and half the country.”
The popular vote in 2020 was Biden 51.3%, Trump 46.9%. Trump got 1/3 of the popular vote in Massa-freaking-chusetts.
If you have information I’m not aware of that tells you my estimate is overblown, I’d love to see it. No sarcasm.
I’m not a Wall Street sort of optimist
I’m the kind of optimist who says the Black Plague killed as much as 20% of the human population in less than 10 years – 30 to 50% of the population of Europe – and we got through that, right?
It’s true, I’m no fun at parties.
The United States will get through this mess, which is to say, there will still be a country called that, located in North America, people will here and go about their daily lives etc etc etc. we’re not going to be reduced to a smoking pile of rubble. it’s just unclear what the damage will be, and what things will look like when we’re on the other side of it.
Assuming there is an “other side of it”, which is not a given. All of the folks supporting Trump didn’t just land here from some other planet, they’ve been here basically forever, and have been sitting on the toxic crap that Trump has tapped into for god knows how long. None of that is going away anytime soon.
I’ll be more sanguine if and when I see the principals behind 1/6/21 in jail. For example. That was, plainly, an attempted coup. If we can’t figure out how to address it forcefully and effectively, I’m not sure what the hell we’re about.
you watched Don’t Look Up didn’t you?
Worst case: we’ll leave the world to the tardigrades and methane-breathing worms. Them, and whatever evolves that can live on plastic. The crows and rats and cockroaches will feast on our bones.
See, optimism!
As if on cue:
https://www.americanscientist.org/article/the-bright-side-of-the-black-death
This made me laugh, which may mean it’s time to adjust my meds.
As if on cue:
https://www.americanscientist.org/article/the-bright-side-of-the-black-death
This made me laugh, which may mean it’s time to adjust my meds.
The popular vote in 2020 was Biden 51.3%, Trump 46.9%.
A lot of those votes were “against the other guy” votes(I voted against both of them). Such as, in Virginia, a lot of people who voted for Biden voted for a Republican governor.
The popular vote in 2020 was Biden 51.3%, Trump 46.9%.
A lot of those votes were “against the other guy” votes(I voted against both of them). Such as, in Virginia, a lot of people who voted for Biden voted for a Republican governor.
russell, as I read your post it conflates voting for Trump with “more than sufficiently motivated to wreak havoc”.
No sarcasm from me either, I just think the numbers in the latter category are much smaller. Sure, there are hotheads and nutcases but most of the crowd, I like to think, didn’t plan to storm the Capitol. They got caught up in it, sure, and yes they were Trump voters, and yes, some of them were proud of what they did but I think (hope!) many if not most are at least embarrassed.
Do people really want a second Civil War? A few, yes, a large number, I think not.
russell, as I read your post it conflates voting for Trump with “more than sufficiently motivated to wreak havoc”.
No sarcasm from me either, I just think the numbers in the latter category are much smaller. Sure, there are hotheads and nutcases but most of the crowd, I like to think, didn’t plan to storm the Capitol. They got caught up in it, sure, and yes they were Trump voters, and yes, some of them were proud of what they did but I think (hope!) many if not most are at least embarrassed.
Do people really want a second Civil War? A few, yes, a large number, I think not.
Did anyone really want the first Civil War?
A few, yes, a large number, I think not.
But it took only a few weeks to get used to the idea and they couldn’t make enough uniforms.
Though not of the civil variety, the mob, the generals, and many of the politicians leading up to World War I couldn’t wait to suit up and hit the trenches.
Wars engulf societies in which very few had any idea it could happen.
It’s more complicated than whether anyone wants it.
And by few, let’s remember it was the fucking President of the United States and his conservative movement thugs in the fucking White House who were and are the fucking few.
A series of steps, missteps, and bad decisions, and events become a deus et machina out of anyone hands, which then seems inevitable to the historians.
Did anyone really want the first Civil War?
A few, yes, a large number, I think not.
But it took only a few weeks to get used to the idea and they couldn’t make enough uniforms.
Though not of the civil variety, the mob, the generals, and many of the politicians leading up to World War I couldn’t wait to suit up and hit the trenches.
Wars engulf societies in which very few had any idea it could happen.
It’s more complicated than whether anyone wants it.
And by few, let’s remember it was the fucking President of the United States and his conservative movement thugs in the fucking White House who were and are the fucking few.
A series of steps, missteps, and bad decisions, and events become a deus et machina out of anyone hands, which then seems inevitable to the historians.
no1, oh yes, I take your point, and there are Steve Bannon and Sidney Powell and too many others.
I don’t deny that catastrophic outcomes are possible. Trump actually won an election after all.
I’m just an (a cockeyed?) optimist, remember, so I go on believing we’ll avoid the worst.
no1, oh yes, I take your point, and there are Steve Bannon and Sidney Powell and too many others.
I don’t deny that catastrophic outcomes are possible. Trump actually won an election after all.
I’m just an (a cockeyed?) optimist, remember, so I go on believing we’ll avoid the worst.
russell, as for cockroaches, see this.
russell, as for cockroaches, see this.
deus ex machina, that should read.
Like Robespierre’s and Marie Antoinette’s heads sharing a basket.
What was it they wanted?
“I’m just an (a cockeyed?) optimist, remember, so I go on believing we’ll avoid the worst.”
Good on ya, ral.
Cubs fan?
My mother-in-law believed we all muddle through.
Let’s play two.
deus ex machina, that should read.
Like Robespierre’s and Marie Antoinette’s heads sharing a basket.
What was it they wanted?
“I’m just an (a cockeyed?) optimist, remember, so I go on believing we’ll avoid the worst.”
Good on ya, ral.
Cubs fan?
My mother-in-law believed we all muddle through.
Let’s play two.
No sarcasm from me either, I just think the numbers in the latter category are much smaller. Sure, there are hotheads and nutcases but most of the crowd, I like to think, didn’t plan to storm the Capitol. They got caught up in it, sure, and yes they were Trump voters, and yes, some of them were proud of what they did but I think (hope!) many if not most are at least embarrassed.
Do people really want a second Civil War? A few, yes, a large number, I think not.
The thing is, this is negative partisanship we are dealing with here. No one thinks that they are ruining the country. They think they are fighting to keep the other side from ruining the country.
My relatives were not there, but they knew people who were there – people who had gone not to storm the capital, but people who were there to make their voices heard outside because they believed that Biden had stolen an election. I’m sure a number of them were feeling a lot like wj. They were being forced by circumstances to have to save the republic from a direct threat.
Not excusing what they did. They should have known better. They have horrible media diets and a bad case of confirmation bias. And they have been radicalizing each other for years with anti-abortion polemics and anti-vax/anti climate change pseudoscience and skepticism, and homophobic conspiracies.
In their minds, the Orange Menace goes too far, and so do a lot of people on the right, but they have all been pushed so far by the tyranny of the radical left that things sometimes slip. But they are not going to let that unpleasantness distract them from their resolve to stop the radical left.
This is what comes of a bad case of Stockholm Syndrome fed by an abusive relationship with their own leaders.
So, yes, the ones who will actually take up the cause of violence are small in number, but I don’t expect that to push the remaining core away from them. I think the cycle of violence will only draw them tighter into their narrative of being The Remnant. With that, they will excuse any excess their own side perpetrates because the rest of us have forced their hand. And so what power they have will be used to shield their radicals and preserve their movement.
They don’t need to believe in their side, they only need to remain convinced of the other side’s inherent evil.
No sarcasm from me either, I just think the numbers in the latter category are much smaller. Sure, there are hotheads and nutcases but most of the crowd, I like to think, didn’t plan to storm the Capitol. They got caught up in it, sure, and yes they were Trump voters, and yes, some of them were proud of what they did but I think (hope!) many if not most are at least embarrassed.
Do people really want a second Civil War? A few, yes, a large number, I think not.
The thing is, this is negative partisanship we are dealing with here. No one thinks that they are ruining the country. They think they are fighting to keep the other side from ruining the country.
My relatives were not there, but they knew people who were there – people who had gone not to storm the capital, but people who were there to make their voices heard outside because they believed that Biden had stolen an election. I’m sure a number of them were feeling a lot like wj. They were being forced by circumstances to have to save the republic from a direct threat.
Not excusing what they did. They should have known better. They have horrible media diets and a bad case of confirmation bias. And they have been radicalizing each other for years with anti-abortion polemics and anti-vax/anti climate change pseudoscience and skepticism, and homophobic conspiracies.
In their minds, the Orange Menace goes too far, and so do a lot of people on the right, but they have all been pushed so far by the tyranny of the radical left that things sometimes slip. But they are not going to let that unpleasantness distract them from their resolve to stop the radical left.
This is what comes of a bad case of Stockholm Syndrome fed by an abusive relationship with their own leaders.
So, yes, the ones who will actually take up the cause of violence are small in number, but I don’t expect that to push the remaining core away from them. I think the cycle of violence will only draw them tighter into their narrative of being The Remnant. With that, they will excuse any excess their own side perpetrates because the rest of us have forced their hand. And so what power they have will be used to shield their radicals and preserve their movement.
They don’t need to believe in their side, they only need to remain convinced of the other side’s inherent evil.
What nous said, exactly.
What nous said, exactly.
most of the crowd, I like to think, didn’t plan to storm the Capitol. They got caught up in it
This does not inspire confidence.
I don’t think there will be a civil war in the sense of two armies engaging in full-on battle. I think there will be – is – a lack of social cohesion, that will continue for an extended period of time. With enough acts of actual violence to make the threat of more violence palpable and credible. All of which will bring effective governance to a grinding halt.
I generally agree with nous’ 12:47, except I’d put it all in present tense. We’re there now.
most of the crowd, I like to think, didn’t plan to storm the Capitol. They got caught up in it
This does not inspire confidence.
I don’t think there will be a civil war in the sense of two armies engaging in full-on battle. I think there will be – is – a lack of social cohesion, that will continue for an extended period of time. With enough acts of actual violence to make the threat of more violence palpable and credible. All of which will bring effective governance to a grinding halt.
I generally agree with nous’ 12:47, except I’d put it all in present tense. We’re there now.
I do not believe we are there quite yet.
Time will tell.
I do not believe we are there quite yet.
Time will tell.
Voting Rights and the Battle Over Elections: What to Know: Since the 2020 election, Republicans have pursued a host of new voting restrictions across the country. Here’s where things stand.
A primer, in today’s NYT.
https://www.nytimes.com/article/voting-rights-tracker.html
Voting Rights and the Battle Over Elections: What to Know: Since the 2020 election, Republicans have pursued a host of new voting restrictions across the country. Here’s where things stand.
A primer, in today’s NYT.
https://www.nytimes.com/article/voting-rights-tracker.html
I do not believe we are there quite yet.
If I had to put money on who would pull something like that now, it would be Marjorie Taylor Greene.
I do not believe we are there quite yet.
If I had to put money on who would pull something like that now, it would be Marjorie Taylor Greene.
Leave it to the cockroach to become a picky eater just as its dream banquet begins.
I’d like a National Muffin Month for the internet and America in general, wherein for 31 days, no matter what happens, nobody sez nuttin, especially me.
Our own silent slartibartfast has been the best example of a muffin now since 2016.
He probably decided to take his avatar’s good advice:
Slartibartfast : Perhaps I’m old and tired, but I think that the chances of finding out what’s actually going on are so absurdly remote that the only thing to do is to say, “Hang the sense of it,” and keep yourself busy. I’d much rather be happy than right any day.
“We’re there now.”
This, as a coda to nous’ statement, is the point.
Perhaps it’s classic WRS counterpoint, like Lennon’s “it can’t no worse” to ral McCartney’s “gettin better all the time!”.
I love both.
Though I acknowledge bobbyp’s notion that we might be undergoing a series of excruciating penultimate “not there quite yets”.
In which case, the suspense is killing me.
The conservative movement wants only their governance and their order.
They will prevent by all crooked … and unfortunately also lawful, because the law is an ass adrift in a huge block of swiss cheese (as Trump, and the Mafia and their attorneys before him established) … means governance by anyone to their left, including the moderate middle .. the majority of American citizens .. the latter of which they have purtin near vanquished from the vanguard of their own party.
And by “we’re there now”, I mean to say that they have established, by word and technicolor deed, that should their order not prevail, they will resort to destroying civilized order in America.
Should that eventuality transpire, I’m merely stating that I will become as uncivilized as is necessary to kick their behinds into their mass graves.
Sometimes there are no scones left, and the cockroach has to eat the effin muffin.
“Well, we must eat the muffin!” could become a battle cry.
I think Lincoln said it first.
Or was it General Edward Everett Horton?
Leave it to the cockroach to become a picky eater just as its dream banquet begins.
I’d like a National Muffin Month for the internet and America in general, wherein for 31 days, no matter what happens, nobody sez nuttin, especially me.
Our own silent slartibartfast has been the best example of a muffin now since 2016.
He probably decided to take his avatar’s good advice:
Slartibartfast : Perhaps I’m old and tired, but I think that the chances of finding out what’s actually going on are so absurdly remote that the only thing to do is to say, “Hang the sense of it,” and keep yourself busy. I’d much rather be happy than right any day.
“We’re there now.”
This, as a coda to nous’ statement, is the point.
Perhaps it’s classic WRS counterpoint, like Lennon’s “it can’t no worse” to ral McCartney’s “gettin better all the time!”.
I love both.
Though I acknowledge bobbyp’s notion that we might be undergoing a series of excruciating penultimate “not there quite yets”.
In which case, the suspense is killing me.
The conservative movement wants only their governance and their order.
They will prevent by all crooked … and unfortunately also lawful, because the law is an ass adrift in a huge block of swiss cheese (as Trump, and the Mafia and their attorneys before him established) … means governance by anyone to their left, including the moderate middle .. the majority of American citizens .. the latter of which they have purtin near vanquished from the vanguard of their own party.
And by “we’re there now”, I mean to say that they have established, by word and technicolor deed, that should their order not prevail, they will resort to destroying civilized order in America.
Should that eventuality transpire, I’m merely stating that I will become as uncivilized as is necessary to kick their behinds into their mass graves.
Sometimes there are no scones left, and the cockroach has to eat the effin muffin.
“Well, we must eat the muffin!” could become a battle cry.
I think Lincoln said it first.
Or was it General Edward Everett Horton?
I do not believe we are there quite yet.
Have you met the zip tie guy? And his mom, too. Nice people.
I’m sure there is a legitimate range of opinion about when people like this should be considered a threat to the nation. But, at least to me, running riot in the Capitol looking for members of Congress while carrying zip restraints and a taser should qualify.
Just one man’s opinion.
I think nous is correct, these folks think they are saving the country from some kind of horrible communist fate. I’m not sure they can articulate what that “horrible communist fate” is, but I’m also not sure that matters all that much. In any case, that perception on their part may make dialog impossible.
There is no common ground that I can see between these folks and people like myself, as regards anything in the public sphere. I’m sure we all love our kids blah blah blah but that isn’t what we’re talking about here. There is no common ground I can see regarding anything in the public sphere. And there does not appear to be sufficient wiggle room in their world to allow for them to co-exist with people who don’t embrace their point of view.
If they can’t prevail through legitimate means, they’ll make it difficult for people who don’t vote the way they like to vote at all. They’ll draw district lines in ways that negate the votes of people who don’t vote they way they like.
They’ll threaten the lives of government officials over issues like being required to wear a mask in public during a pandemic. Not just threaten their lives, but make active plans to kidnap and kill them.
And if they lose an election, they’ll run riot and hunt members of Congress in the Capitol with zip restraints and tasers.
Right? I’m not making this stuff up.
This is a large country, with lots of different kinds of people in it. The only thing that makes that work is if people can accept that not everyone is like them, and agree to take their losses as gracefully as they take their wins.
That does not appear to be on offer. So I don’t know how this experiment continues to work.
I’m sure it will continue in some form or other, I just don’t know what it looks like.
Maybe we all just stay the hell away from each other and accept that national governance is a non-starter. That’ll make the libertarians happy, no doubt, but I’m not sure it’s a recipe for any kind of national cohesion or success.
I don’t know how we make this work. And I don’t know what “it’s not gonna work” looks like in the long term.
What I do know is that I will not accept living with people whose idea of social conversation is threats and violence. It remains to be seen what “will not accept” looks like, we’ll have to wait and see.
I do not believe we are there quite yet.
Have you met the zip tie guy? And his mom, too. Nice people.
I’m sure there is a legitimate range of opinion about when people like this should be considered a threat to the nation. But, at least to me, running riot in the Capitol looking for members of Congress while carrying zip restraints and a taser should qualify.
Just one man’s opinion.
I think nous is correct, these folks think they are saving the country from some kind of horrible communist fate. I’m not sure they can articulate what that “horrible communist fate” is, but I’m also not sure that matters all that much. In any case, that perception on their part may make dialog impossible.
There is no common ground that I can see between these folks and people like myself, as regards anything in the public sphere. I’m sure we all love our kids blah blah blah but that isn’t what we’re talking about here. There is no common ground I can see regarding anything in the public sphere. And there does not appear to be sufficient wiggle room in their world to allow for them to co-exist with people who don’t embrace their point of view.
If they can’t prevail through legitimate means, they’ll make it difficult for people who don’t vote the way they like to vote at all. They’ll draw district lines in ways that negate the votes of people who don’t vote they way they like.
They’ll threaten the lives of government officials over issues like being required to wear a mask in public during a pandemic. Not just threaten their lives, but make active plans to kidnap and kill them.
And if they lose an election, they’ll run riot and hunt members of Congress in the Capitol with zip restraints and tasers.
Right? I’m not making this stuff up.
This is a large country, with lots of different kinds of people in it. The only thing that makes that work is if people can accept that not everyone is like them, and agree to take their losses as gracefully as they take their wins.
That does not appear to be on offer. So I don’t know how this experiment continues to work.
I’m sure it will continue in some form or other, I just don’t know what it looks like.
Maybe we all just stay the hell away from each other and accept that national governance is a non-starter. That’ll make the libertarians happy, no doubt, but I’m not sure it’s a recipe for any kind of national cohesion or success.
I don’t know how we make this work. And I don’t know what “it’s not gonna work” looks like in the long term.
What I do know is that I will not accept living with people whose idea of social conversation is threats and violence. It remains to be seen what “will not accept” looks like, we’ll have to wait and see.
Our own silent slartibartfast has been the best example of a muffin now since 2016.
Slarti appears to be living John Prine’s Spanish Pipedream.
Maybe that’s where we’ll all end up. Could be worse.
Our own silent slartibartfast has been the best example of a muffin now since 2016.
Slarti appears to be living John Prine’s Spanish Pipedream.
Maybe that’s where we’ll all end up. Could be worse.
I’m not sure they can articulate what that “horrible communist fate” is, but I’m also not sure that matters all that much.
It doesn’t matter in the sense that it doesn’t diminish their motivation. It does matter in the sense that it keeps rational argument from changing their thinking. It’s an incoherent and adaptable mish-mash of bullsh*t.
You could argue that it is the very heart of the matter – that they can’t articulate with specificity, including verifiable (or falsifiable) facts, what it is they are fighting – not to mention how they think the world should work.
All they really know is that they’re super-duper mad at liberals (or whatever category of people they perceive not to be like them). And it’s become a very significant part of their identities, something that defines them as people and makes them part of something.
I’m not sure they can articulate what that “horrible communist fate” is, but I’m also not sure that matters all that much.
It doesn’t matter in the sense that it doesn’t diminish their motivation. It does matter in the sense that it keeps rational argument from changing their thinking. It’s an incoherent and adaptable mish-mash of bullsh*t.
You could argue that it is the very heart of the matter – that they can’t articulate with specificity, including verifiable (or falsifiable) facts, what it is they are fighting – not to mention how they think the world should work.
All they really know is that they’re super-duper mad at liberals (or whatever category of people they perceive not to be like them). And it’s become a very significant part of their identities, something that defines them as people and makes them part of something.
Maybe you should consider threats and violence is an outlying response on the far end of the political spectrum. Both ends, and specific issues.
Threats, of losing a job, a livelihood, are staples of the Democratic response to those that disagree with them, and that’s not the fringe, that’s thee President.
The common ground is stop that shit. Recognize that most problems are not best solved at the federal level and agree on the ones that are.
That’s what it will look like.
I have three jabs, a concealed carry permit, a cannabis medical card, support Roe v Wade, think the defense budget is too big, think we should not be the world’s police, am reasonably ok with progress being made on climate change, think medical care should be guaranteed for children under 18 and seniors based on need, think voter ID is a fine idea while we are just approaching the challenges of mail and electronic voting. Privacy is a myth that should be restored as much as possible and net neutrality is pretty much socialism.
I am not going to detail how much I hate Democtatic fiscal policy or immigration policy, although limitations on H1Bs are pretty stupid by either party.
That said, I’m pretty sure there is common ground with everyone I know in there. Unfortunately, there is enough in there for each side to hate I almost never discuss it anymore.
Maybe you should consider threats and violence is an outlying response on the far end of the political spectrum. Both ends, and specific issues.
Threats, of losing a job, a livelihood, are staples of the Democratic response to those that disagree with them, and that’s not the fringe, that’s thee President.
The common ground is stop that shit. Recognize that most problems are not best solved at the federal level and agree on the ones that are.
That’s what it will look like.
I have three jabs, a concealed carry permit, a cannabis medical card, support Roe v Wade, think the defense budget is too big, think we should not be the world’s police, am reasonably ok with progress being made on climate change, think medical care should be guaranteed for children under 18 and seniors based on need, think voter ID is a fine idea while we are just approaching the challenges of mail and electronic voting. Privacy is a myth that should be restored as much as possible and net neutrality is pretty much socialism.
I am not going to detail how much I hate Democtatic fiscal policy or immigration policy, although limitations on H1Bs are pretty stupid by either party.
That said, I’m pretty sure there is common ground with everyone I know in there. Unfortunately, there is enough in there for each side to hate I almost never discuss it anymore.
But optimism feels to me like it partakes too much of privilege.
This is certainly a possibility for me.
But optimism feels to me like it partakes too much of privilege.
This is certainly a possibility for me.
i’m so old i remember when the Dixie Chicks had careers. i wonder what happened to them?
i’m so old i remember when Colin Kaepernick had a career. i wonder what happened to him?
i’m so old i remember the entire fucking Trump presidency, when the President would, daily, single-out companies that weren’t sufficiently obedient to whatever harebrained nonsense he was pretending to be upset about that day. not a complaint from any Republicans that i know of.
in fact, that behavior is now SOP for an entire generation of GOP pseudo-legislators who spend their days using their taxpayer-funded Congressional salaries sitting on Twitter, finding people to gleefully cancel, while being cheered-on by hordes of followers. not a complaint from any Republicans that i know of.
i’m so old i remember April, when the most powerful Republicans in the land (including Senate GOP leader McConnell) threatened corporations to stay out of politics when they made noises against the GOP’s transparent vote abuse in GA. not a complaint from any Republicans that i know of.
i’m so old i remember September, when House leader McCarthy directly threatened businesses who cooperated with the 1/6 probe saying that Republicans “will not forget” it if they retake the House. not a complaint from any Republicans that i know of.
i’m so old, i remember last month, when Republicans threatened to default on US government debt, in order to … well, who the fuck knows what they want… something idiotic and childish, i’m sure. not a complaint from any Republicans that i know of.
gtfoohwts
i’m so old i remember when the Dixie Chicks had careers. i wonder what happened to them?
i’m so old i remember when Colin Kaepernick had a career. i wonder what happened to him?
i’m so old i remember the entire fucking Trump presidency, when the President would, daily, single-out companies that weren’t sufficiently obedient to whatever harebrained nonsense he was pretending to be upset about that day. not a complaint from any Republicans that i know of.
in fact, that behavior is now SOP for an entire generation of GOP pseudo-legislators who spend their days using their taxpayer-funded Congressional salaries sitting on Twitter, finding people to gleefully cancel, while being cheered-on by hordes of followers. not a complaint from any Republicans that i know of.
i’m so old i remember April, when the most powerful Republicans in the land (including Senate GOP leader McConnell) threatened corporations to stay out of politics when they made noises against the GOP’s transparent vote abuse in GA. not a complaint from any Republicans that i know of.
i’m so old i remember September, when House leader McCarthy directly threatened businesses who cooperated with the 1/6 probe saying that Republicans “will not forget” it if they retake the House. not a complaint from any Republicans that i know of.
i’m so old, i remember last month, when Republicans threatened to default on US government debt, in order to … well, who the fuck knows what they want… something idiotic and childish, i’m sure. not a complaint from any Republicans that i know of.
gtfoohwts
Not one of those things used the power of the US government to get people fired.
Not one of those things used the power of the US government to get people fired.
also, this never happened, in planet Marty.
also, this never happened, in planet Marty.
The Chick’s are doing quite well thank you.
The Chicks have won 13 Grammy Awards, including five in 2007 for Taking the Long Way—which received the Grammy Award for Album of the Year—and its single “Not Ready to Make Nice”—which received the Grammy Award for Record of the Year and the Grammy Award for Song of the Year. By July 2020, with 33 million certified albums sold,[1] and sales of 27.9 million albums in the U.S. alone, they had become the best-selling female band and best-selling country group in the U.S. during the Nielsen SoundScan era (1991–present).
The Chick’s are doing quite well thank you.
The Chicks have won 13 Grammy Awards, including five in 2007 for Taking the Long Way—which received the Grammy Award for Album of the Year—and its single “Not Ready to Make Nice”—which received the Grammy Award for Record of the Year and the Grammy Award for Song of the Year. By July 2020, with 33 million certified albums sold,[1] and sales of 27.9 million albums in the U.S. alone, they had become the best-selling female band and best-selling country group in the U.S. during the Nielsen SoundScan era (1991–present).
Not one of those things used the power of the US government to get people fired.
Several did, however, threaten to use the power of the US government to damage people, just as soon as the politicians who were speaking got back in power.
Not one of those things used the power of the US government to get people fired.
Several did, however, threaten to use the power of the US government to damage people, just as soon as the politicians who were speaking got back in power.
staples of the Democratic response to those that disagree with them
Generalizing vaccine mandates during a public-health emergency broadly as a matter of simple disagreement is a rhetorical trick known as bullshit. No one’s threatening people with losing jobs or whatever for, say, wanting lower tax rates or voting for Republicans or arguing for abortion restrictions. People disagree with Democrats on any number of issues with no such threats. It’s a stupid and false assertion.
staples of the Democratic response to those that disagree with them
Generalizing vaccine mandates during a public-health emergency broadly as a matter of simple disagreement is a rhetorical trick known as bullshit. No one’s threatening people with losing jobs or whatever for, say, wanting lower tax rates or voting for Republicans or arguing for abortion restrictions. People disagree with Democrats on any number of issues with no such threats. It’s a stupid and false assertion.
wj, even you know those things are not comparable. I mean according to cleek Trump ruined a company daily.(I might need some proof of that damage).
Biden made injecting a vaccine into my body a condition of employment. Fuck him. I spent forty years building a career and he can make an adult human being unemployment at his whim? Who’s a fucking fascist now?
wj, even you know those things are not comparable. I mean according to cleek Trump ruined a company daily.(I might need some proof of that damage).
Biden made injecting a vaccine into my body a condition of employment. Fuck him. I spent forty years building a career and he can make an adult human being unemployment at his whim? Who’s a fucking fascist now?
Those evil Democrats not wanting people to f**king die! Jesus Christ.
Those evil Democrats not wanting people to f**king die! Jesus Christ.
Be unemployable
Be unemployable
Maybe you should consider threats and violence is an outlying response on the far end of the political spectrum.
How far on the fringe were the folks smashing cops over the head with ire extinguishers last January?
Threats, of losing a job, a livelihood, are staples of the Democratic response to those that disagree with them, and that’s not the fringe, that’s thee President.
It’s ok for a city or state to impose a vax mandate, but not the feds? Does the federal government have any public health authority, at all?
That said, I’m pretty sure there is common ground with everyone I know in there.
I recognize that you’d like to minimize the differences between people, but finding common ground requires a conversation. “Let’s burn the mayor’s house down” is not a conversation. “When can we start shooting liberals” is not a conversation.
Maybe you should consider threats and violence is an outlying response on the far end of the political spectrum.
How far on the fringe were the folks smashing cops over the head with ire extinguishers last January?
Threats, of losing a job, a livelihood, are staples of the Democratic response to those that disagree with them, and that’s not the fringe, that’s thee President.
It’s ok for a city or state to impose a vax mandate, but not the feds? Does the federal government have any public health authority, at all?
That said, I’m pretty sure there is common ground with everyone I know in there.
I recognize that you’d like to minimize the differences between people, but finding common ground requires a conversation. “Let’s burn the mayor’s house down” is not a conversation. “When can we start shooting liberals” is not a conversation.
Biden made injecting a vaccine into my body a condition of employment.
Or, wear a mask and get tested weekly.
Or, none of the above, if you work alone or mostly work outdoors.
I’m not seeing an extraordinary burden being placed here. It’s no more onerous than what many states or cities have imposed, but apparently that’s OK with you because it’s not the feds.
I’ve had to piss in a cup to write code, for crying out loud. I could have quit and found another job, of course, but that’s also an option for folks who don’t want to get vaxed.
800k dead ain’t no whim.
Fuck him.
Let’s go, Brandon!
Biden made injecting a vaccine into my body a condition of employment.
Or, wear a mask and get tested weekly.
Or, none of the above, if you work alone or mostly work outdoors.
I’m not seeing an extraordinary burden being placed here. It’s no more onerous than what many states or cities have imposed, but apparently that’s OK with you because it’s not the feds.
I’ve had to piss in a cup to write code, for crying out loud. I could have quit and found another job, of course, but that’s also an option for folks who don’t want to get vaxed.
800k dead ain’t no whim.
Fuck him.
Let’s go, Brandon!
wj, even you know those things are not comparable. I mean according to cleek Trump ruined a company daily.(I might need some proof of that damage).
Biden made injecting a vaccine into my body a condition of employment.
Trump didn’t ruin a company daily, that is correct. But he tried; the fact that he was incompetent and failed doesn’t wipe away the attempt.
As for vaccination requirements, unless you work for the Federal government, I’m not aware of any attempt by the government to make vaccination a condition of your employment. With the possible exception of some state governments requiring those working with high risk populations (e.g. nursing home workers) to do so.
All the government has done is argue that employers are allowed to make vaccination a condition of employment. That is, the Federal government says that being unvaccinated is not a “protected class”.
Overall, I would say the government has, with covid vaccinations, gone much further to accommodate those who do not wish to be vaccinated than has normally been the case with vaccinations. With the, unintended but predictable, side effect that the crazies who oppose all vaccinations are getting more traction for getting catered to on that as well. And all those childhood diseases which we had knocked out are having a resurgence.
wj, even you know those things are not comparable. I mean according to cleek Trump ruined a company daily.(I might need some proof of that damage).
Biden made injecting a vaccine into my body a condition of employment.
Trump didn’t ruin a company daily, that is correct. But he tried; the fact that he was incompetent and failed doesn’t wipe away the attempt.
As for vaccination requirements, unless you work for the Federal government, I’m not aware of any attempt by the government to make vaccination a condition of your employment. With the possible exception of some state governments requiring those working with high risk populations (e.g. nursing home workers) to do so.
All the government has done is argue that employers are allowed to make vaccination a condition of employment. That is, the Federal government says that being unvaccinated is not a “protected class”.
Overall, I would say the government has, with covid vaccinations, gone much further to accommodate those who do not wish to be vaccinated than has normally been the case with vaccinations. With the, unintended but predictable, side effect that the crazies who oppose all vaccinations are getting more traction for getting catered to on that as well. And all those childhood diseases which we had knocked out are having a resurgence.
So, a case in point.
There is probably a reasonable discussion to have about whether the feds have the authority to impose a vaccine mandate and what the terms and conditions of that mandate should be. And, in fact, that discussion is underway in the courts as we speak.
The discussion here has kicked off with:
Biden is making Marty unemployable, on a whim. He’s the real fascist. Fuck him.
Anyone want to try to try to engage that on the substance?
So, a case in point.
There is probably a reasonable discussion to have about whether the feds have the authority to impose a vaccine mandate and what the terms and conditions of that mandate should be. And, in fact, that discussion is underway in the courts as we speak.
The discussion here has kicked off with:
Biden is making Marty unemployable, on a whim. He’s the real fascist. Fuck him.
Anyone want to try to try to engage that on the substance?
People on ventilators are unemployable.
People on ventilators are unemployable.
Anyone want to try to try to engage that on the substance?
Could someone perhaps provide a reference to an edict, from Biden directly or from the Executive Branch at large, which requires covid vaccinations in order to hold private (non-government) employment?
At this point, I don’t believe I’m even required to be vaccinated in order to fly, which is a situation tailor-made for disease transmission. I probably should be, but I’m not. And I have trouble seeing wearing a mask as that much more onerous than wearing a seat belt, which I have long been required to do.
Anyone want to try to try to engage that on the substance?
Could someone perhaps provide a reference to an edict, from Biden directly or from the Executive Branch at large, which requires covid vaccinations in order to hold private (non-government) employment?
At this point, I don’t believe I’m even required to be vaccinated in order to fly, which is a situation tailor-made for disease transmission. I probably should be, but I’m not. And I have trouble seeing wearing a mask as that much more onerous than wearing a seat belt, which I have long been required to do.
i mean according to cleek Trump ruined a company daily
it’s true, as Marty always says: if you just make shit up, you win every argument!
i mean according to cleek Trump ruined a company daily
it’s true, as Marty always says: if you just make shit up, you win every argument!
something something…wrestling with a pig…something something.
something something…wrestling with a pig…something something.
something something…wrestling with a pig…something something.
new computer. forgot to install my Ignore Pigs greasemonkey script.
something something…wrestling with a pig…something something.
new computer. forgot to install my Ignore Pigs greasemonkey script.
Marty, you are stark raving mad.
Judging by excess-death statistics, Covid has caused about a million deaths in the USA. Every man’s death diminishes us: a million deaths diminish us more than our chimp brains can truly comprehend.
The vaccines are known, as near to certainly as could be, to reduce infections by a lot, and reduce deaths by a lot more. Vaccines save lives. A lot of lives.
What have you got to set against that? Your freedom to make a decision on a whim to risk other people’s lives. There’s a medical exemption, as there should be, and a religious exemption, as there should not be. The only remaining reason to refuse the vaccine is stupidity. OK, you can be stupid if you want, but not to the extent of killing other people. If that’s socialism, I’m a socialist. If you think it’s fascism, you’re even madder than I said in in my first sentence.
Marty, you are stark raving mad.
Judging by excess-death statistics, Covid has caused about a million deaths in the USA. Every man’s death diminishes us: a million deaths diminish us more than our chimp brains can truly comprehend.
The vaccines are known, as near to certainly as could be, to reduce infections by a lot, and reduce deaths by a lot more. Vaccines save lives. A lot of lives.
What have you got to set against that? Your freedom to make a decision on a whim to risk other people’s lives. There’s a medical exemption, as there should be, and a religious exemption, as there should not be. The only remaining reason to refuse the vaccine is stupidity. OK, you can be stupid if you want, but not to the extent of killing other people. If that’s socialism, I’m a socialist. If you think it’s fascism, you’re even madder than I said in in my first sentence.
Could someone perhaps provide a reference to an edict, from Biden directly or from the Executive Branch at large, which requires covid vaccinations in order to hold private (non-government) employment?
Granted, the OSHA mandate for companies with >100 employees has an escape clause, but does not require employers to pick up the cost of weekly testing and continuous masking, and does not appear to make exceptions if employees are unable to obtain/afford testing and masks. For someone on federal minimum wage, the cost of testing (and/or time and transportation to obtain free tests) may be an effective mandate.
Could someone perhaps provide a reference to an edict, from Biden directly or from the Executive Branch at large, which requires covid vaccinations in order to hold private (non-government) employment?
Granted, the OSHA mandate for companies with >100 employees has an escape clause, but does not require employers to pick up the cost of weekly testing and continuous masking, and does not appear to make exceptions if employees are unable to obtain/afford testing and masks. For someone on federal minimum wage, the cost of testing (and/or time and transportation to obtain free tests) may be an effective mandate.
Marty, you are stark raving mad.
Judging by excess-death statistics, Covid has caused about a million deaths in the USA. Every man’s death diminishes us: a million deaths diminish us more than our chimp brains can truly comprehend.
And a huge percentage of the people who have died were those who already had some kind of health condition, and/or the elderly.
(A good while ago I did a calculation based on Maine’s Covid death statistics and average life expectancy, and came up with a rough estimate that the people who died had lost an average of seven years each. That translates to seven million years of life lost in this country, a good proportion of it because of the oblivious lunatic selfishness of a good percentage of the population. Oh my, a mask, to save someone else’s life? Break out the fainting couch.)
It has gradually dawned on me that this response to the pandemic isn’t as outlandishly unexpected as it seemed at first. Living in close proximity to someone with undiagnosable chronic pain issues who is afraid of ending up living under a bridge someday, because our safety net in this country is such a mean-spirited disaster, I am increasing aware of the daily human consequences of having one of our two major political parties devoted to making life as sucky as possible for as many people as possible.
If making sure the worst off among us have at least baseline comfortable lives is far too much for the Rs, the Clickbaiters, and Marty, what’s a million deaths here and there? And mostly of the same people, who surely did something to deserve it.
If only karma worked for real.
Marty, you are stark raving mad.
Judging by excess-death statistics, Covid has caused about a million deaths in the USA. Every man’s death diminishes us: a million deaths diminish us more than our chimp brains can truly comprehend.
And a huge percentage of the people who have died were those who already had some kind of health condition, and/or the elderly.
(A good while ago I did a calculation based on Maine’s Covid death statistics and average life expectancy, and came up with a rough estimate that the people who died had lost an average of seven years each. That translates to seven million years of life lost in this country, a good proportion of it because of the oblivious lunatic selfishness of a good percentage of the population. Oh my, a mask, to save someone else’s life? Break out the fainting couch.)
It has gradually dawned on me that this response to the pandemic isn’t as outlandishly unexpected as it seemed at first. Living in close proximity to someone with undiagnosable chronic pain issues who is afraid of ending up living under a bridge someday, because our safety net in this country is such a mean-spirited disaster, I am increasing aware of the daily human consequences of having one of our two major political parties devoted to making life as sucky as possible for as many people as possible.
If making sure the worst off among us have at least baseline comfortable lives is far too much for the Rs, the Clickbaiters, and Marty, what’s a million deaths here and there? And mostly of the same people, who surely did something to deserve it.
If only karma worked for real.
Don’t count this as engagement, because the engagement is off on account of the nature of the noxious substance.
If an employer of his or her volition, without gummint intervention, fires at fucking will an employee who refuses to get vaccinated against Covid or Polio or Smallpox (for any other reason, including some bullshit religious sensibility, other than that they would suffer adverse dire medical effects from vaccination, in which case, work at home accommodations and such could be made; you can dig ditches and cut meat from yer bedroom, right?), to protect his other employees, clients, customers, and other businesses in his building, is that employer a fascist fuck, as well?
He or she is merely trying to minimize the chance that a purposefully unvaccinated employee is with intent and anonymously trying to force the Covid-19 killer virus up Marty’s nose and down his throat when the latter comes calling to do some business.
My son’s employer, a large pharma company, just recently fired a lab colleague of my son’s, who had been with the company for decades, for refusing Covid vaccination on account of stubborn no-account druthers.
Good riddance. If that know-nothing, for fuck’s sake he worked in medicine and drug discovery, had been the cause of my son, who has diligently and intelligently taken all reasonable precautions, suffering from this disease, he would have been tracked down by me and presented with personal fascism straight into his fucking face.
What are we to call the employers who hide behind their meaningless “private” status and who for fucking goddamned American forever have been firing workers for refusing to attend work when sick (see the murderous republican conservative vermin owners of meatpacking plants who did just that, forcing the deadly transmission of a pandemic virus among their “valued” employees, or partners), or when their children or parents are fucking sick and require care, or who have been denied and cut off from their stinking employer-provided health insurance, many, including retired or laid-off employees, while in the midst of life-threatening care for cancer, heart disease, etc.?
The list of names is too long for this comment box, and besides I’m momentarily fucking out of names to call them.
But I’ll tell you what, “freedom-loving American” is not among the names.
The Covid virus gives zero fucks about “personal responsibility”, “constitutional rights”, religious druthers”, “employer rights”, and any of the other categories we dreamboat Americans suck our exceptional thumbs to sleep about.
Fuck off, whomever qualifies for fucking off.
If fuckyous could put conservative twats and their new-age expertise-hating airhead supplement-hawking wunderkind compatriots who have merged with the former into immediate intubation on ventilators, I’d be standing on a street corner right now handing them out.
So, I received some very topical and personal Covid news this morning, which I will share in good time with y’all.
Postscript:
Janie wrote:
“That translates to seven million years of life lost in this country, a good proportion of it because of the oblivious lunatic selfishness of a good percentage of the population.”
Number of years and lives lost will not phase the conservative movement and their hangers-onners. Maybe .. and it’s a rough maybe at this point, the psychotic Trump republican conservative movement might shift in their seats a bit and exhibit a barely detectable flinch of an eyebrow if you couched your outrage in terms of lost productivity or some other subhuman data point, like declining workforce participation, in other words, their fucking bottomlines.
Remember, these are the “fuck your feelings” crowd who pretty much unanimously tell employees who might be thinking of starting a union or questioning this or that that they can take a hike because there are plenty of other suckers out there who are happy to have that job at less pay and fewer benefits.
I think the Soviets rewarded their Commissars for such behavior when Boris refused to work.
Don’t count this as engagement, because the engagement is off on account of the nature of the noxious substance.
If an employer of his or her volition, without gummint intervention, fires at fucking will an employee who refuses to get vaccinated against Covid or Polio or Smallpox (for any other reason, including some bullshit religious sensibility, other than that they would suffer adverse dire medical effects from vaccination, in which case, work at home accommodations and such could be made; you can dig ditches and cut meat from yer bedroom, right?), to protect his other employees, clients, customers, and other businesses in his building, is that employer a fascist fuck, as well?
He or she is merely trying to minimize the chance that a purposefully unvaccinated employee is with intent and anonymously trying to force the Covid-19 killer virus up Marty’s nose and down his throat when the latter comes calling to do some business.
My son’s employer, a large pharma company, just recently fired a lab colleague of my son’s, who had been with the company for decades, for refusing Covid vaccination on account of stubborn no-account druthers.
Good riddance. If that know-nothing, for fuck’s sake he worked in medicine and drug discovery, had been the cause of my son, who has diligently and intelligently taken all reasonable precautions, suffering from this disease, he would have been tracked down by me and presented with personal fascism straight into his fucking face.
What are we to call the employers who hide behind their meaningless “private” status and who for fucking goddamned American forever have been firing workers for refusing to attend work when sick (see the murderous republican conservative vermin owners of meatpacking plants who did just that, forcing the deadly transmission of a pandemic virus among their “valued” employees, or partners), or when their children or parents are fucking sick and require care, or who have been denied and cut off from their stinking employer-provided health insurance, many, including retired or laid-off employees, while in the midst of life-threatening care for cancer, heart disease, etc.?
The list of names is too long for this comment box, and besides I’m momentarily fucking out of names to call them.
But I’ll tell you what, “freedom-loving American” is not among the names.
The Covid virus gives zero fucks about “personal responsibility”, “constitutional rights”, religious druthers”, “employer rights”, and any of the other categories we dreamboat Americans suck our exceptional thumbs to sleep about.
Fuck off, whomever qualifies for fucking off.
If fuckyous could put conservative twats and their new-age expertise-hating airhead supplement-hawking wunderkind compatriots who have merged with the former into immediate intubation on ventilators, I’d be standing on a street corner right now handing them out.
So, I received some very topical and personal Covid news this morning, which I will share in good time with y’all.
Postscript:
Janie wrote:
“That translates to seven million years of life lost in this country, a good proportion of it because of the oblivious lunatic selfishness of a good percentage of the population.”
Number of years and lives lost will not phase the conservative movement and their hangers-onners. Maybe .. and it’s a rough maybe at this point, the psychotic Trump republican conservative movement might shift in their seats a bit and exhibit a barely detectable flinch of an eyebrow if you couched your outrage in terms of lost productivity or some other subhuman data point, like declining workforce participation, in other words, their fucking bottomlines.
Remember, these are the “fuck your feelings” crowd who pretty much unanimously tell employees who might be thinking of starting a union or questioning this or that that they can take a hike because there are plenty of other suckers out there who are happy to have that job at less pay and fewer benefits.
I think the Soviets rewarded their Commissars for such behavior when Boris refused to work.
Despite everything, the fascist Grinch in the White House saved Christmas:
https://digbysblog.net/2021/12/30/will-reality-ever-bite/
All of them fake Santas bearing coal was wrong.
Of course, the latter’s leading indicators of a robust economy are rising unemployment, plenty of air and water pollution (outputs exceeding inputs) melting ice caps, rocketing rates of the Covid-19 virus, packed emergency rooms, and folks choking to death in ICUs.
Both sides win!
Despite everything, the fascist Grinch in the White House saved Christmas:
https://digbysblog.net/2021/12/30/will-reality-ever-bite/
All of them fake Santas bearing coal was wrong.
Of course, the latter’s leading indicators of a robust economy are rising unemployment, plenty of air and water pollution (outputs exceeding inputs) melting ice caps, rocketing rates of the Covid-19 virus, packed emergency rooms, and folks choking to death in ICUs.
Both sides win!
If Biden ordered every company in the US to require all their employees (strippers excepted) to wear clothes, Marty would probably just shrug. At any rate, I doubt he would denounce Biden for making him unemployable:)
Joking aside, I accept that Marty is sincere about this:
I am pleasantly surprised by some of these things (Marty supports Roe v Wade?!) and neither pleased nor surprised by others (net neutrality = socialism) but to the extent that Marty is willing to discuss them, we can indeed “find common ground” for discussion. Not necessarily for agreement or compromise, mind you.
But if it was a face-to-face discussion, clothing would NOT be optional.
–TP
If Biden ordered every company in the US to require all their employees (strippers excepted) to wear clothes, Marty would probably just shrug. At any rate, I doubt he would denounce Biden for making him unemployable:)
Joking aside, I accept that Marty is sincere about this:
I am pleasantly surprised by some of these things (Marty supports Roe v Wade?!) and neither pleased nor surprised by others (net neutrality = socialism) but to the extent that Marty is willing to discuss them, we can indeed “find common ground” for discussion. Not necessarily for agreement or compromise, mind you.
But if it was a face-to-face discussion, clothing would NOT be optional.
–TP
Pro Bono, thank God for vaccines, they have saved millions of lives. Completely irrelevant as to whether someone should be required to be vaccinated to hold a job. We passed HIPAA laws specifically to protect the very kind of information we are talking about.
I am not the madman here. If the vaccines work then those that get them should feel protected. Those people for whom vaccines may not work have to decide what level of risk they can live with. 36% of the covid patients in our largest regional hospital were fully vaccinated up from 14% a few weeks ago. There is actually little to protect then, but they live with that always.
If there is something that the unvaccinated owe the vaccinated it is in the private sphere. My best friend passed this month, he died of a massive heart attack walking through an airport. I did not attend his services for other reasons but they did ask specifically for those unvaccinated to attend virtually. Common courtesy would require respecting that. The public sphere is less definite. If asked you should wear a mask, I have one on me all the time. But you simy can’t exclude the unvacci ated from going to work, or church, or the grocery store, it isn’t my right to make them take medicine that could have a negative side effect No matter how small the chance.
Pro Bono, thank God for vaccines, they have saved millions of lives. Completely irrelevant as to whether someone should be required to be vaccinated to hold a job. We passed HIPAA laws specifically to protect the very kind of information we are talking about.
I am not the madman here. If the vaccines work then those that get them should feel protected. Those people for whom vaccines may not work have to decide what level of risk they can live with. 36% of the covid patients in our largest regional hospital were fully vaccinated up from 14% a few weeks ago. There is actually little to protect then, but they live with that always.
If there is something that the unvaccinated owe the vaccinated it is in the private sphere. My best friend passed this month, he died of a massive heart attack walking through an airport. I did not attend his services for other reasons but they did ask specifically for those unvaccinated to attend virtually. Common courtesy would require respecting that. The public sphere is less definite. If asked you should wear a mask, I have one on me all the time. But you simy can’t exclude the unvacci ated from going to work, or church, or the grocery store, it isn’t my right to make them take medicine that could have a negative side effect No matter how small the chance.
But you simy can’t exclude the unvacci ated from going to work, or church, or the grocery store, it isn’t my right to make them take medicine that could have a negative side effect No matter how small the chance.
When did that start? Every vaccine has at least some microscopic potential for a negative side effect. Including the ones which have been required for a century or more. Not encouraged; required. You could go without if you were willing to adopt subsistance living in the wilderness. But not in an urban setting.
But you simy can’t exclude the unvacci ated from going to work, or church, or the grocery store, it isn’t my right to make them take medicine that could have a negative side effect No matter how small the chance.
When did that start? Every vaccine has at least some microscopic potential for a negative side effect. Including the ones which have been required for a century or more. Not encouraged; required. You could go without if you were willing to adopt subsistance living in the wilderness. But not in an urban setting.
Could someone perhaps provide a reference to an edict, from Biden directly or from the Executive Branch at large, which requires covid vaccinations in order to hold private (non-government) employment?
If I’m not mistaken, Marty refers to new (as of Nov 4) OSHA regulations requiring people who work for companies with 100 or more employees to either get vaccinated, or submit to a weekly COVID exam. If you’re unvaccinated, you also have to wear a mask while at work. There are exemptions for folks who work outside, or who work alone.
So if you work for a large company, you either have to get vaccinated, or you need to get tested once a week and wear a mask at work.
All of that is currently being challenged in various courts by (R) governors etc who don’t think the feds have the authority to issue such a rule. It make make its way to the SCOTUS.
There are lots of people who don’t want the vaccine. Some of them believe there’s a microchip in the vaccine. Some of them don’t trust the medical industry, and some of those folks have reason for that. Some folks know or have heard of other folks who had an adverse reaction. Some folks want to own the libs. Some folks just don’t want anybody else telling them what to do.
If you don’t want the vax, wear a mask and get a test once a week. Problem solved.
Could someone perhaps provide a reference to an edict, from Biden directly or from the Executive Branch at large, which requires covid vaccinations in order to hold private (non-government) employment?
If I’m not mistaken, Marty refers to new (as of Nov 4) OSHA regulations requiring people who work for companies with 100 or more employees to either get vaccinated, or submit to a weekly COVID exam. If you’re unvaccinated, you also have to wear a mask while at work. There are exemptions for folks who work outside, or who work alone.
So if you work for a large company, you either have to get vaccinated, or you need to get tested once a week and wear a mask at work.
All of that is currently being challenged in various courts by (R) governors etc who don’t think the feds have the authority to issue such a rule. It make make its way to the SCOTUS.
There are lots of people who don’t want the vaccine. Some of them believe there’s a microchip in the vaccine. Some of them don’t trust the medical industry, and some of those folks have reason for that. Some folks know or have heard of other folks who had an adverse reaction. Some folks want to own the libs. Some folks just don’t want anybody else telling them what to do.
If you don’t want the vax, wear a mask and get a test once a week. Problem solved.
If asked you should wear a mask, I have one on me all the time.
If you wear a mask at work and get a Covid test at least once a week, you don’t have to get the shot.
That’s not enough wiggle room for folks who don’t want to get vaccinated?
Probably not much more from me on this topic, I’m beginning to feel like a fish confronted with a hook.
If asked you should wear a mask, I have one on me all the time.
If you wear a mask at work and get a Covid test at least once a week, you don’t have to get the shot.
That’s not enough wiggle room for folks who don’t want to get vaccinated?
Probably not much more from me on this topic, I’m beginning to feel like a fish confronted with a hook.
regulations requiring people who work for companies with 100 or more employees to either get vaccinated, or submit to a weekly COVID exam. If you’re unvaccinated, you also have to wear a mask while at work. [Emphasis added]
So you can get a test, and you’re fine. No requirement to get injected in order to work. So, where’s the fascism again?
regulations requiring people who work for companies with 100 or more employees to either get vaccinated, or submit to a weekly COVID exam. If you’re unvaccinated, you also have to wear a mask while at work. [Emphasis added]
So you can get a test, and you’re fine. No requirement to get injected in order to work. So, where’s the fascism again?
We passed HIPAA laws specifically to protect the very kind of information we are talking about.
You’re aware that every dose of the Covid vaccines administered goes into the public health records? Personal id, date, place, who gave the shot, vaccine type, and batch identifier. My state sent me an e-mail telling me I was eligible for a booster based on those. It’s a feature that makes vaccine passports effective: the information in the passport can be verified against the data.
We passed HIPAA laws specifically to protect the very kind of information we are talking about.
You’re aware that every dose of the Covid vaccines administered goes into the public health records? Personal id, date, place, who gave the shot, vaccine type, and batch identifier. My state sent me an e-mail telling me I was eligible for a booster based on those. It’s a feature that makes vaccine passports effective: the information in the passport can be verified against the data.
I’m curious about the HIPAA thing because one of the people who shut down a public health briefing a town away from me this week was ranting about her HIPAA rights.
What, exactly, is the HIPAA regulation that is violated by a requirement to demonstrate vaccination status? Why aren’t other contexts where you have to show proof of vaccination covered by this? Most (maybe all?) schools require proof of, minimally, MMR and similar vaccines before you can attend. Why aren’t they in violation?
I’m curious about the HIPAA thing because one of the people who shut down a public health briefing a town away from me this week was ranting about her HIPAA rights.
What, exactly, is the HIPAA regulation that is violated by a requirement to demonstrate vaccination status? Why aren’t other contexts where you have to show proof of vaccination covered by this? Most (maybe all?) schools require proof of, minimally, MMR and similar vaccines before you can attend. Why aren’t they in violation?
“ If the vaccines work then those that get them should feel protected. ”
It’s not binary. The vaccines work to some degree— they greatly decrease the severity of the disease. They might lessen the chances of infection ( though that seems to depend on the variant). But hospitals can still fill up and make it harder for other people to get necessary care. Nurses and doctors can feel overwhelmed. A vaccinated person who gets a mild case can pass it on to some vulnerable unvaccinated person.
I don’t lump everyone who hasn’t been vaccinated into the same camp— some oppose it for dumb culture war reasons but others might have trouble getting time off and others might be innocently misled and others might have reasons to be mistrustful of the medical system. And I wonder myself if there will be side effects ten years down the road.
But all that said, most of us should get the vaccine not just for ourselves but for society. It cuts down on the burden on the health care system and if we have fewer infections presumably we will have fewer mutations and fewer variants down the road.
Everything in America has to become part of the culture war. It makes us stupid.
“ If the vaccines work then those that get them should feel protected. ”
It’s not binary. The vaccines work to some degree— they greatly decrease the severity of the disease. They might lessen the chances of infection ( though that seems to depend on the variant). But hospitals can still fill up and make it harder for other people to get necessary care. Nurses and doctors can feel overwhelmed. A vaccinated person who gets a mild case can pass it on to some vulnerable unvaccinated person.
I don’t lump everyone who hasn’t been vaccinated into the same camp— some oppose it for dumb culture war reasons but others might have trouble getting time off and others might be innocently misled and others might have reasons to be mistrustful of the medical system. And I wonder myself if there will be side effects ten years down the road.
But all that said, most of us should get the vaccine not just for ourselves but for society. It cuts down on the burden on the health care system and if we have fewer infections presumably we will have fewer mutations and fewer variants down the road.
Everything in America has to become part of the culture war. It makes us stupid.
“The public sphere is less definite.”
I’m sure the virus has taken note, just as it recognizes and strictly observes the impermeability of national borders, state lines and rights, and thoughts and prayers.
If anything, there should be more common courtesy in the public sphere than in the private.
I always thought there was.
So much for that. Finally, I ‘ll feel unjudged for dropping the “f” bomb in church just after the doxology, not to mention the new latitude I apparently now have to raise objections to the federally mandated rigamarole airline pilots, those Captain Queegs, enforce at 30,000 feet.
I am the madman here, and any challenge from Marty for that position will easily be turned back.
“The public sphere is less definite.”
I’m sure the virus has taken note, just as it recognizes and strictly observes the impermeability of national borders, state lines and rights, and thoughts and prayers.
If anything, there should be more common courtesy in the public sphere than in the private.
I always thought there was.
So much for that. Finally, I ‘ll feel unjudged for dropping the “f” bomb in church just after the doxology, not to mention the new latitude I apparently now have to raise objections to the federally mandated rigamarole airline pilots, those Captain Queegs, enforce at 30,000 feet.
I am the madman here, and any challenge from Marty for that position will easily be turned back.
“But all that said, most of us should get the vaccine not just for ourselves but for society”
This is just wrong. Pretty much everyone that got the vaccine got it to protect themselves or people they know. Any other positive effect was secondary. Those that haven’t feel like they are protecting themselves.
No one is doing this for the good of society.
It is binary, the vaccines positives are deemed more viable or the potential downsides are. Either way it is a personal decision.
“But all that said, most of us should get the vaccine not just for ourselves but for society”
This is just wrong. Pretty much everyone that got the vaccine got it to protect themselves or people they know. Any other positive effect was secondary. Those that haven’t feel like they are protecting themselves.
No one is doing this for the good of society.
It is binary, the vaccines positives are deemed more viable or the potential downsides are. Either way it is a personal decision.
Right Marty— no one is doing it for society. Whatever you say.
I’m not wasting any more time on this.
Right Marty— no one is doing it for society. Whatever you say.
I’m not wasting any more time on this.
Right Marty— no one is doing it for society. Whatever you say.
I’m not wasting any more time on this.
What Donald said.
It’s amazing that any of us (including me) still bite these hooks, given that they are wrapped in bullshit.
Right Marty— no one is doing it for society. Whatever you say.
I’m not wasting any more time on this.
What Donald said.
It’s amazing that any of us (including me) still bite these hooks, given that they are wrapped in bullshit.
Pretty much everyone that got the vaccine got it to protect themselves or people they know. Any other positive effect was secondary.
That might well be true. Or not. Anybody seen a study, or even just a poll, on the subject?
Pretty much everyone that got the vaccine got it to protect themselves or people they know. Any other positive effect was secondary.
That might well be true. Or not. Anybody seen a study, or even just a poll, on the subject?
Margaret Thatcher would be proud.
The conservative movement is flagrantly incoherent.
No society.
But no individuals either:
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/individualism-is-the-enemy/
1/6 was a drop in the conservative slop bucket of what is coming.
Never share air space with the Martys.
Margaret Thatcher would be proud.
The conservative movement is flagrantly incoherent.
No society.
But no individuals either:
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/individualism-is-the-enemy/
1/6 was a drop in the conservative slop bucket of what is coming.
Never share air space with the Martys.
Where’s your Governor, Marty?
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2021/12/30/thursday-evening-open-thread-where-is-gov-desantis/
Where’s your Governor, Marty?
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2021/12/30/thursday-evening-open-thread-where-is-gov-desantis/
No one is doing this for the good of society.
Most people I know have gotten the vaccine both to stay healthy themselves, and also to prevent the further spread of the disease. To their families, friends, co-workers, casual acquaintances, random strangers on the street or in public places, and even to people they don’t know, haven’t met, and won’t ever know or meet.
Both.
It’s common freaking decency. This is so obvious to me that I have a hard time getting my head around any other way to look at it. As always, we are one nation divided by utterly different sets of values.
You say fuck Joe Biden, I say fuck Margaret Thatcher. That saucy minx.
No one is doing this for the good of society.
Most people I know have gotten the vaccine both to stay healthy themselves, and also to prevent the further spread of the disease. To their families, friends, co-workers, casual acquaintances, random strangers on the street or in public places, and even to people they don’t know, haven’t met, and won’t ever know or meet.
Both.
It’s common freaking decency. This is so obvious to me that I have a hard time getting my head around any other way to look at it. As always, we are one nation divided by utterly different sets of values.
You say fuck Joe Biden, I say fuck Margaret Thatcher. That saucy minx.
What, exactly, is the HIPAA regulation that is violated by a requirement to demonstrate vaccination status?
There is none. Current statute, rules, and case law all say that your employer can require you to show your vaccination status. The question before the SCOTUS next week — and their actions to this point suggest how they will rule — is whether your employer can make vaccination status a condition for employment. And perhaps, whether banning such conditions is solely a state or federal thing. Maine requires employees at hospitals and such reveal their status to their employer, and requires the employer to discharge unvaccinated workers. The SCOTUS declined to block that.
What, exactly, is the HIPAA regulation that is violated by a requirement to demonstrate vaccination status?
There is none. Current statute, rules, and case law all say that your employer can require you to show your vaccination status. The question before the SCOTUS next week — and their actions to this point suggest how they will rule — is whether your employer can make vaccination status a condition for employment. And perhaps, whether banning such conditions is solely a state or federal thing. Maine requires employees at hospitals and such reveal their status to their employer, and requires the employer to discharge unvaccinated workers. The SCOTUS declined to block that.
No one is doing this for the good of society.
***
This is just wrong. Pretty much everyone that got the vaccine got it to protect themselves or people they know. Any other positive effect was secondary.
No wonder we can’t communicate that well with each other. The first of these sentences is contradicted by the last (bold) sentence. A secondary effect is still a reason or motive to do something.
But I do feel that this underlines a difference we have often noted before between liberals and conservatives (or pace wj, rightwingers): liberals believe that doing things for the common good is a worthwhile aim, whereas the very concept seems to enrage, baffle or threaten many on the right.
No one is doing this for the good of society.
***
This is just wrong. Pretty much everyone that got the vaccine got it to protect themselves or people they know. Any other positive effect was secondary.
No wonder we can’t communicate that well with each other. The first of these sentences is contradicted by the last (bold) sentence. A secondary effect is still a reason or motive to do something.
But I do feel that this underlines a difference we have often noted before between liberals and conservatives (or pace wj, rightwingers): liberals believe that doing things for the common good is a worthwhile aim, whereas the very concept seems to enrage, baffle or threaten many on the right.
“Any other positive effect was secondary.”
Ah, the Invisible Hand rousts itself from inappropriate scratching and desultory shoplifting and skirtlifting to make an appearance.
The great thing about Andrew Carnegie was after killing the workers and guards during the Hoemstead Strike, after underpaying them and such, was that the dead’s descendants got a free public library card for their considerable forbearance.
Which now, natch, is a deal conservatives and libertarians want to renege on.
“Any other positive effect was secondary.”
Ah, the Invisible Hand rousts itself from inappropriate scratching and desultory shoplifting and skirtlifting to make an appearance.
The great thing about Andrew Carnegie was after killing the workers and guards during the Hoemstead Strike, after underpaying them and such, was that the dead’s descendants got a free public library card for their considerable forbearance.
Which now, natch, is a deal conservatives and libertarians want to renege on.
Homestead … in my hoemtown.
Homestead … in my hoemtown.
Do you suppose that DeSantis and his ilk are relaxed about covid killing off their populations simply because the census is over? They could lose half their population and lose zero Congressmen or Electoral Votes. So, who cares?
Do you suppose that DeSantis and his ilk are relaxed about covid killing off their populations simply because the census is over? They could lose half their population and lose zero Congressmen or Electoral Votes. So, who cares?
No one is doing this for the good of society.
Similarly, the unconstrained individual greedy pursuit of insatiable economic wants, curbed only by the god given price mechanism will result in the greater societal good, something which, apparently, is just, meh, “secondary”.
Good to know.
No one is doing this for the good of society.
Similarly, the unconstrained individual greedy pursuit of insatiable economic wants, curbed only by the god given price mechanism will result in the greater societal good, something which, apparently, is just, meh, “secondary”.
Good to know.
Current statute, rules, and case law all say that your employer can require you to show your vaccination status. The question before the SCOTUS next week — and their actions to this point suggest how they will rule — is whether your employer can make vaccination status a condition for employment
Employment at will is a bedrock conservative/glibertarian principle, so it would appear the only out these hacks have is to make anti-vaxxers a “protected class”, a principle that they, under just about any other circumstance, loathe utterly.
Pulling a rabbit out of the hat like “equal sovereign dignitude of the states” looks to be a tall order here, Johnny R.
Current statute, rules, and case law all say that your employer can require you to show your vaccination status. The question before the SCOTUS next week — and their actions to this point suggest how they will rule — is whether your employer can make vaccination status a condition for employment
Employment at will is a bedrock conservative/glibertarian principle, so it would appear the only out these hacks have is to make anti-vaxxers a “protected class”, a principle that they, under just about any other circumstance, loathe utterly.
Pulling a rabbit out of the hat like “equal sovereign dignitude of the states” looks to be a tall order here, Johnny R.
my impression is that conservatives / right-wingers are fine with employers making any condition at all a requirement for employment. Because that’s an arrangement between private actors.
What they object to is government, or at least the feds, imposing the requirement. That would be fascism.
my impression is that conservatives / right-wingers are fine with employers making any condition at all a requirement for employment. Because that’s an arrangement between private actors.
What they object to is government, or at least the feds, imposing the requirement. That would be fascism.
That’s correct from my standpoint russell.(Your 9:11)
Any way you want to spin it, people didn’t get vaccinated for society. A secondary effect might make you feel better about a decision, but it isn’t the reason you did it.
That’s correct from my standpoint russell.(Your 9:11)
Any way you want to spin it, people didn’t get vaccinated for society. A secondary effect might make you feel better about a decision, but it isn’t the reason you did it.
my impression is that conservatives / right-wingers are fine with employers making any condition at all a requirement for employment. Because that’s an arrangement between private actors.
So apparently those red states making it illegal for companies to require vaccinations are neither conservative nor libertarian. But we knew that. Else they would have refused to countenance Trump all along.
my impression is that conservatives / right-wingers are fine with employers making any condition at all a requirement for employment. Because that’s an arrangement between private actors.
So apparently those red states making it illegal for companies to require vaccinations are neither conservative nor libertarian. But we knew that. Else they would have refused to countenance Trump all along.
“my impression is that conservatives / right-wingers are fine with employers making any condition at all a requirement for employment.”
Pretty sure I saw DeSantis and his Florida Man Party trying to make it illegal for employers to do this; both with employees and customers (as in ‘cruise ship customers’/’virus petri dish medium’).
Their pro-virus policies make them objectively species-traitors at this point. Treat accordingly.
“my impression is that conservatives / right-wingers are fine with employers making any condition at all a requirement for employment.”
Pretty sure I saw DeSantis and his Florida Man Party trying to make it illegal for employers to do this; both with employees and customers (as in ‘cruise ship customers’/’virus petri dish medium’).
Their pro-virus policies make them objectively species-traitors at this point. Treat accordingly.
Any way you want to spin it, people didn’t get vaccinated for society. A secondary effect might make you feel better about a decision, but it isn’t the reason you did it.
Dude, you can speak for yourself, but you cannot by god speak for me. Not now, not ever, not about this, not about anything.
Hope that’s clear. Have a good night.
Any way you want to spin it, people didn’t get vaccinated for society. A secondary effect might make you feel better about a decision, but it isn’t the reason you did it.
Dude, you can speak for yourself, but you cannot by god speak for me. Not now, not ever, not about this, not about anything.
Hope that’s clear. Have a good night.
The Party of Ideas:
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2021/12/30/late-night-open-thread-a-national-divorce-the-latest-right-wing-phantasy/
I’m for instituting checkpoints at the imaginary borders of my state and dragging incoming conservatives and republicans out of their vehicles and executing them in hails of gunfire.
We could open “Machete Lounges” at the airports, wherein disembarking conservatives and republicans could be herded for a quick complementary drink, a video welcoming message from our Governor, and then hacked to pieces with machetes and dismembered for the return flight.
Masks required.
I wouldn’t do this for myself, but for my fellow decent citizens, most of whom I don’t know.
What would Jesus say?
He’d ask the fox what he said and repeat it.
The Party of Ideas:
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2021/12/30/late-night-open-thread-a-national-divorce-the-latest-right-wing-phantasy/
I’m for instituting checkpoints at the imaginary borders of my state and dragging incoming conservatives and republicans out of their vehicles and executing them in hails of gunfire.
We could open “Machete Lounges” at the airports, wherein disembarking conservatives and republicans could be herded for a quick complementary drink, a video welcoming message from our Governor, and then hacked to pieces with machetes and dismembered for the return flight.
Masks required.
I wouldn’t do this for myself, but for my fellow decent citizens, most of whom I don’t know.
What would Jesus say?
He’d ask the fox what he said and repeat it.
no1, you have 3 hours left to watch Boris and Natasha on Amazon Prime.
no1, you have 3 hours left to watch Boris and Natasha on Amazon Prime.
[back on topic, so to speak]
I have been watching the NY Times Covid map for years now and the data from Florida is certainly strange, particularly the last few days. A sudden remarkable increase in cases and then a flat trajectory. Makes one suspect fudging.
[back on topic, so to speak]
I have been watching the NY Times Covid map for years now and the data from Florida is certainly strange, particularly the last few days. A sudden remarkable increase in cases and then a flat trajectory. Makes one suspect fudging.
Makes one suspect fudging.
How else, from proponents of “alternative facts”?
Reality is just so . . . inconvenient.
Makes one suspect fudging.
How else, from proponents of “alternative facts”?
Reality is just so . . . inconvenient.
What would Jesus say?
He’d ask the fox what he said and repeat it.
No, he did not ASK the fox anything or even personally met him:
“And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold […]” [Luke 13:32]
What would Jesus say?
He’d ask the fox what he said and repeat it.
No, he did not ASK the fox anything or even personally met him:
“And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold […]” [Luke 13:32]
Gerson:
i thought we’d had enough puzzling over the mental state of “conservatives” during the Trump years. but maybe those years aren’t actually over.
Gerson:
i thought we’d had enough puzzling over the mental state of “conservatives” during the Trump years. but maybe those years aren’t actually over.
Here’s a New Year’s present for wj:
2 decades of right turns
Enjoy.
Here’s a New Year’s present for wj:
2 decades of right turns
Enjoy.
there are all kinds of reasons that people don’t want the Covid vaccination.
a lot of people of color simply don’t trust the medical industry, and their reasons for that are often legitimate.
there are a lot of folks who are anti-vax of any kind because they prefer alternative forms of medicine.
some people are hesitant because they know folks who had adverse reactions, which actually do occur in a very small percentage of cases.
I’m not in favor of requiring people to get vaccinated if they don’t want to be vaccinated. I don’t agree with basically any of the arguments against getting vaccinated, but there needs to be room for people to respect their own values and beliefs, whether I agree with them or not.
But I’m also strongly in favor of folks requiring vaccinations as a condition of participating in public life. Work, school, theaters, bars and restaurants, what have you. If people are going to be around other people, requiring a vaccination seems like a more than reasonable requirement.
Especially if masking and a negative test are offered as an option.
And I’m fine with that mandate coming from either private actors or public ones. If people don’t want unvaccinated people in their house, that’s their prerogative. If businesses don’t want unvaccinated people on their premises, likewise. And if a government body wants to make vaccinations mandatory for participation in any public activity, including work, all good.
If folks want to quibble about whether it’s OK for local or state municipalities to issue such a mandate vs whether the feds can do it, fine, bring your lawsuits and have your day in court. But to my eye the argument about “federal overreach” here is specious, and is a question that has long been settled. The feds make rules about workplace safety and public health all the time. Folks are being extremely selective about which of those rules and regulations they find objectionable.
If you don’t want to get vaccinated, that’s your prerogative, but the burden of making sure *your* decision doesn’t affect other people’s health and well being falls on *you*.
Wear a freaking mask. Maintain social distance. Get tested if you know you are going to be around other people.
It’s pretty freaking simple, and it’s a matter of basic human decency.
It’s mind-boggling to me that something this basic and obvious has become culture war fodder. This crap is, literally, killing people.
We’ve lost our freaking minds. Maybe at some point we’ll find them again, but I think it’s a long way off yet.
Have a great New Year’s everyone. Have fun and stay safe.
there are all kinds of reasons that people don’t want the Covid vaccination.
a lot of people of color simply don’t trust the medical industry, and their reasons for that are often legitimate.
there are a lot of folks who are anti-vax of any kind because they prefer alternative forms of medicine.
some people are hesitant because they know folks who had adverse reactions, which actually do occur in a very small percentage of cases.
I’m not in favor of requiring people to get vaccinated if they don’t want to be vaccinated. I don’t agree with basically any of the arguments against getting vaccinated, but there needs to be room for people to respect their own values and beliefs, whether I agree with them or not.
But I’m also strongly in favor of folks requiring vaccinations as a condition of participating in public life. Work, school, theaters, bars and restaurants, what have you. If people are going to be around other people, requiring a vaccination seems like a more than reasonable requirement.
Especially if masking and a negative test are offered as an option.
And I’m fine with that mandate coming from either private actors or public ones. If people don’t want unvaccinated people in their house, that’s their prerogative. If businesses don’t want unvaccinated people on their premises, likewise. And if a government body wants to make vaccinations mandatory for participation in any public activity, including work, all good.
If folks want to quibble about whether it’s OK for local or state municipalities to issue such a mandate vs whether the feds can do it, fine, bring your lawsuits and have your day in court. But to my eye the argument about “federal overreach” here is specious, and is a question that has long been settled. The feds make rules about workplace safety and public health all the time. Folks are being extremely selective about which of those rules and regulations they find objectionable.
If you don’t want to get vaccinated, that’s your prerogative, but the burden of making sure *your* decision doesn’t affect other people’s health and well being falls on *you*.
Wear a freaking mask. Maintain social distance. Get tested if you know you are going to be around other people.
It’s pretty freaking simple, and it’s a matter of basic human decency.
It’s mind-boggling to me that something this basic and obvious has become culture war fodder. This crap is, literally, killing people.
We’ve lost our freaking minds. Maybe at some point we’ll find them again, but I think it’s a long way off yet.
Have a great New Year’s everyone. Have fun and stay safe.
That’s the problem: it only kills people. If it caused significant property damage, all those objections would be brushed aside without much discussion.
That’s the problem: it only kills people. If it caused significant property damage, all those objections would be brushed aside without much discussion.
If you don’t want to get vaccinated, that’s your prerogative, but the burden of making sure *your* decision doesn’t affect other people’s health and well being falls on *you*.
I truly cannot imagine how anyone can rationally argue with this. The operative word being “rationally”.
Have a great New Year’s everyone. Have fun and stay safe.
Seconded.
And may all the optimists be vindicated, and the pessimists be confounded, in the new year. Speaking as one of the latter, I’ll willingly take that.
If you don’t want to get vaccinated, that’s your prerogative, but the burden of making sure *your* decision doesn’t affect other people’s health and well being falls on *you*.
I truly cannot imagine how anyone can rationally argue with this. The operative word being “rationally”.
Have a great New Year’s everyone. Have fun and stay safe.
Seconded.
And may all the optimists be vindicated, and the pessimists be confounded, in the new year. Speaking as one of the latter, I’ll willingly take that.
If you don’t want to get vaccinated, that’s your prerogative, but the burden of making sure *your* decision doesn’t affect other people’s health and well being falls on *you*.
Wear a freaking mask. Maintain social distance. Get tested if you know you are going to be around other people.
I can respect someone who declines, for whatever reason, to get vaccinated. I don’t agree with their choice, but that’s OK.
However, anyone who objects to a mask is in an entirely different category. There is NO religion which says anything negative about masks. There is no potential negative side effect of wearing a mask. It’s not only raw selfishness, it’s petty selfishness.
If you don’t want to get vaccinated, that’s your prerogative, but the burden of making sure *your* decision doesn’t affect other people’s health and well being falls on *you*.
Wear a freaking mask. Maintain social distance. Get tested if you know you are going to be around other people.
I can respect someone who declines, for whatever reason, to get vaccinated. I don’t agree with their choice, but that’s OK.
However, anyone who objects to a mask is in an entirely different category. There is NO religion which says anything negative about masks. There is no potential negative side effect of wearing a mask. It’s not only raw selfishness, it’s petty selfishness.
I’m going to go out on a limb and try adding to “what Russell said.”
In the early days of the pandemic Donald Trump referred to the fact that people also die from the flu.
Even at the time comparing Covid to the flu was callous and ignorant at best. But now, with over 800,000 dead in the U.S., more than 1,000 deaths each day, hospital ICUs filling or full, doctors and nurses burned out and new cases rising exponentially?
If you want to go live in a cabin in the woods, fine, go. Probably you can even get the Internet these days. Otherwise, you bear some responsibilty for protecting the health of others, not just yourself.
I’m going to go out on a limb and try adding to “what Russell said.”
In the early days of the pandemic Donald Trump referred to the fact that people also die from the flu.
Even at the time comparing Covid to the flu was callous and ignorant at best. But now, with over 800,000 dead in the U.S., more than 1,000 deaths each day, hospital ICUs filling or full, doctors and nurses burned out and new cases rising exponentially?
If you want to go live in a cabin in the woods, fine, go. Probably you can even get the Internet these days. Otherwise, you bear some responsibilty for protecting the health of others, not just yourself.
“There is NO religion which says anything negative about masks.”
In fact, if it weren’t for religion’s elaborate mask and other wardrobe affectations and requirements as a way of plumbing the mysteries .. not that they aren’t interesting and beautiful … through the millenia, where would we be?
Where would the KKK be? Heck, what of Guy Fawkes day? Trick or Treat?
Until the current nuts came along, everyone was all for a bit of dress-up from time to time.
A vastly overlooked “secondary effect” of masking and social distancing during this pandemic:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/flu-has-disappeared-worldwide-during-the-covid-pandemic1/
I look forward to getting back to normal, dropping the masks and social distancing, and boosting those annual common flu mortality numbers back to the @30,000 levels God and the Founders intended.
Among people I don’t know, natch.
Along with returning to the usual high number of school and theater and church and nightclub shooting deaths we’ve grown accustomed to, I’ll know America is back to normal when flu and pneumonia are back on their customary high horses.
Happily, traffic-related deaths and injuries have surged during the pandemic, so we can count our blessings for the pandemic’s perverse induced behavior in our American brethren.
In the grotesque outcome of this story, presumably of the unvaxxed variety, I’ll betcha the three of them are sorry they’ve missed out and couldn’t live to die of the common flu, or in a mass shooting, or in a 35-car pileup on the Pennsylvania Turnpike.
I wonder if each of them considered the other two “secondary effects”.
End of black humor.
What a horrific waste of fragile human life.
Will the murderous evil ones who talked the three into their shabby, pathetic graves be held personally responsible and punished in kind.
No.
I wonder of FOX News was still chirping away on the TV when the bodies were discovered?
“There is NO religion which says anything negative about masks.”
In fact, if it weren’t for religion’s elaborate mask and other wardrobe affectations and requirements as a way of plumbing the mysteries .. not that they aren’t interesting and beautiful … through the millenia, where would we be?
Where would the KKK be? Heck, what of Guy Fawkes day? Trick or Treat?
Until the current nuts came along, everyone was all for a bit of dress-up from time to time.
A vastly overlooked “secondary effect” of masking and social distancing during this pandemic:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/flu-has-disappeared-worldwide-during-the-covid-pandemic1/
I look forward to getting back to normal, dropping the masks and social distancing, and boosting those annual common flu mortality numbers back to the @30,000 levels God and the Founders intended.
Among people I don’t know, natch.
Along with returning to the usual high number of school and theater and church and nightclub shooting deaths we’ve grown accustomed to, I’ll know America is back to normal when flu and pneumonia are back on their customary high horses.
Happily, traffic-related deaths and injuries have surged during the pandemic, so we can count our blessings for the pandemic’s perverse induced behavior in our American brethren.
In the grotesque outcome of this story, presumably of the unvaxxed variety, I’ll betcha the three of them are sorry they’ve missed out and couldn’t live to die of the common flu, or in a mass shooting, or in a 35-car pileup on the Pennsylvania Turnpike.
I wonder if each of them considered the other two “secondary effects”.
End of black humor.
What a horrific waste of fragile human life.
Will the murderous evil ones who talked the three into their shabby, pathetic graves be held personally responsible and punished in kind.
No.
I wonder of FOX News was still chirping away on the TV when the bodies were discovered?
My concern – which the anti-vax, anti-mask contingent has not commented upon at all – is that hospitals are again overrun with Covid patients, leaving non-Covid patients who need urgent medical care to die for lack of it. A few instances have made the news; I assume there are plenty more who haven’t.
I understand why the antis are silent on the subject: they don’t, actually, care. Not even a little bit.
Just another “common good” thing they don’t care about.
I wish we **could** have a national divorce.
The anti-vaxxers, the bigots, the gun nuts, the profoundly and belligerently ignorant. I despise these people with every atom in my body: I would not piss on them if they were on fire. I would love to be able to shuttle them all to the Deep South and the Dakotas and other like-minded areas, fence them off, and be free of them.
The US will cease to be a nation of any consequence within 6 years if the GOP takes power again; maybe even if it doesn’t (climate change).
It infuriates me that I have to share my country with the people who squandered and destroyed it.
My concern – which the anti-vax, anti-mask contingent has not commented upon at all – is that hospitals are again overrun with Covid patients, leaving non-Covid patients who need urgent medical care to die for lack of it. A few instances have made the news; I assume there are plenty more who haven’t.
I understand why the antis are silent on the subject: they don’t, actually, care. Not even a little bit.
Just another “common good” thing they don’t care about.
I wish we **could** have a national divorce.
The anti-vaxxers, the bigots, the gun nuts, the profoundly and belligerently ignorant. I despise these people with every atom in my body: I would not piss on them if they were on fire. I would love to be able to shuttle them all to the Deep South and the Dakotas and other like-minded areas, fence them off, and be free of them.
The US will cease to be a nation of any consequence within 6 years if the GOP takes power again; maybe even if it doesn’t (climate change).
It infuriates me that I have to share my country with the people who squandered and destroyed it.
…thank God for vaccines, they have saved millions of lives. Completely irrelevant as to whether someone should be required to be vaccinated to hold a job…
Vaccines work, but they’re not 100% effective. Therefore, by going to work unvaccinate you are risking other people’s lives. This is not something you should be allowed to do on a whim, any more than you should be allowed to choose to drive drunk.
…thank God for vaccines, they have saved millions of lives. Completely irrelevant as to whether someone should be required to be vaccinated to hold a job…
Vaccines work, but they’re not 100% effective. Therefore, by going to work unvaccinate you are risking other people’s lives. This is not something you should be allowed to do on a whim, any more than you should be allowed to choose to drive drunk.
10 past 1am here in Germany. Despite a fireworks sales ban* the cannonade is ebbing away only slowly** (either people have horded more than expected or the smuggle of explosive from Poland is even greater than in the preceding years. Few rockets but a lot more than usual in heavy ground based stuff (of the simple going boom type, not illumination). Another hint that it is Polish contraband (those guys often put more into their firecrackers than the German army puts into its hand grenades).
*in part to avoid (in times of Corona) the usual hospital crowding caused by incompetent handling of pyrotechnics.
**I expect a last round at about 4 am to wake up those that have gone to sleep by then. Happens every year.
10 past 1am here in Germany. Despite a fireworks sales ban* the cannonade is ebbing away only slowly** (either people have horded more than expected or the smuggle of explosive from Poland is even greater than in the preceding years. Few rockets but a lot more than usual in heavy ground based stuff (of the simple going boom type, not illumination). Another hint that it is Polish contraband (those guys often put more into their firecrackers than the German army puts into its hand grenades).
*in part to avoid (in times of Corona) the usual hospital crowding caused by incompetent handling of pyrotechnics.
**I expect a last round at about 4 am to wake up those that have gone to sleep by then. Happens every year.
RIP Betty White
RIP Betty White
This is not something you should be allowed to do on a whim, any more than you should be allowed to choose to drive drunk.
The drunk driving analogy is, to my mind, the most apt parallel to the vaccination question. In both cases, the person most likely to be injured or killed is the one behaving irresponsibly. In both cases, the risk to others is adjudged high enough to warrant restricting that person’s freedom to be a damn fool.
It might be amusing to hear the views of the “freedom requires me to be allowed to be unvaccinated without inhibition” crowd’s take on drunk driving laws. No surprise if they’re outraged about seatbelt laws, too. But drunk driving laws? I do wonder….
This is not something you should be allowed to do on a whim, any more than you should be allowed to choose to drive drunk.
The drunk driving analogy is, to my mind, the most apt parallel to the vaccination question. In both cases, the person most likely to be injured or killed is the one behaving irresponsibly. In both cases, the risk to others is adjudged high enough to warrant restricting that person’s freedom to be a damn fool.
It might be amusing to hear the views of the “freedom requires me to be allowed to be unvaccinated without inhibition” crowd’s take on drunk driving laws. No surprise if they’re outraged about seatbelt laws, too. But drunk driving laws? I do wonder….
wj, let’s extend your drunk driving analogy a bit.
Part of the reasoning behind drunk driving laws is the impairment of judgment and faculties (reaction time, perception) caused by consuming alcohol. Can we extend this to apply to consuming media? It wouldn’t be easy to set a measurable standard like blood alcohol, but do hours of watching Fox cause mental impairment?
[I’m mostly being facetious here, but not entirely.]
wj, let’s extend your drunk driving analogy a bit.
Part of the reasoning behind drunk driving laws is the impairment of judgment and faculties (reaction time, perception) caused by consuming alcohol. Can we extend this to apply to consuming media? It wouldn’t be easy to set a measurable standard like blood alcohol, but do hours of watching Fox cause mental impairment?
[I’m mostly being facetious here, but not entirely.]
do hours of watching Fox cause mental impairment?
ral, I’m wondering about the direction of causality here.
Watching Faux News may influence the direction of folly, and how the mental impairment manifests. But the impairment itself may have been there already; without it, the individual would be watching something else.
do hours of watching Fox cause mental impairment?
ral, I’m wondering about the direction of causality here.
Watching Faux News may influence the direction of folly, and how the mental impairment manifests. But the impairment itself may have been there already; without it, the individual would be watching something else.
And one has to exclude those that see Fox&Co as just a sick form of entertainment*. A bit like trashophilia cinematica, the addiction to bad movies BECAUSE they are bad. Admittedly the bad side effects of trash movies (or entertainment media in general) are lesser than those of thrash ‘news’ media (despite age old* conservative complaints to the contrary).
*when the GDR still existed, one specific TV propaganda show produced there was watched as absurd entertainment in Western Germany, so it’s not just a US phenomenon. It’s only remarkable because GDR propaganda otherwise tended to be as dull as one could imagine and then some.
**I mean millenia
And one has to exclude those that see Fox&Co as just a sick form of entertainment*. A bit like trashophilia cinematica, the addiction to bad movies BECAUSE they are bad. Admittedly the bad side effects of trash movies (or entertainment media in general) are lesser than those of thrash ‘news’ media (despite age old* conservative complaints to the contrary).
*when the GDR still existed, one specific TV propaganda show produced there was watched as absurd entertainment in Western Germany, so it’s not just a US phenomenon. It’s only remarkable because GDR propaganda otherwise tended to be as dull as one could imagine and then some.
**I mean millenia