by JanieM
In all kinds of ways, this year hasn’t been as hard for me as it has been for a lot of people. Unlike more than three million people worldwide, including almost 600,000 Americans, I’m still alive. I never got COVID-19. No one close to me got it either – everyone I know has been very, very careful, even the ones who have had to be out in the world more or less as usual.
I’m retired, so I didn’t lose my job. My son has done most of my grocery shopping, for which I’m profoundly grateful. I’m an introvert bordering on hermitdom at the best of times, so the isolation hasn’t been as hard on me as it has been for people who thrive on socializing.
Starting late last March, I made sure to get in the car and take a drive out into the countryside every week or so. I watched spring turn into summer, summer into fall into winter, and here we are again: it’s spring, and we’re in the middle of another wave of COVID infections. In a few days it will be a year since my mom died, and we still haven’t been able to gather to mourn and remember her together.
Since I had my second Pfizer shot on March 5 I’ve started to venture out a little more, although the minimal socializing I’ve done is still outdoors: taking walks with friends, mostly. I’ve gone into town for a couple of appointments and started doing a bit of shopping for myself again. Every time I go out, I find some places to stop and take pictures, since out of all expectation, a photography “tutor” appeared in my life last November, along with a much nicer camera than I’ve ever used before.
So I thought I was doing okay, all things considered.
I am doing okay, all things considered.
But how hard the past year has hit me, and in fact the past five years, came clearer the other day when I spent the afternoon doing errands (masked and distanced as much as possible) and getting a physical, then stopped at a boat launch at the other end of the lake to take pictures. There were some big guys in a big pick-up truck putting a boat in the water, while their big dog (a rambunctious, German shepherd-like beast) ran around loose. The guys with the boat kept calling to the dog, and it never came toward me, but all in all, I wasn’t entirely comfortable.
Then, as I wrote here that night, I got in the car, heard the Chauvin verdict, and cried all the way home.
In town, I’ve had what feel like mini panic attacks, just trying to interact with public life again. I’m still wearing a mask and intend to for a good long time to come, and I don’t want to get into a conflict with someone over masks. I still see a lot of pick-up trucks with Clickbait/Pence bumper stickers, and signs supporting them (and by implication the Big Lie) in yards. As a woman (more or less), I’ve always been aware that there are places where it’s not safe to go, especially at night, but now I have this vague sense that almost no one is safe anywhere anymore.
Some of that is because of the virus itself, but a lot of it is because of the way people have reacted to the virus. Some of it is because of the rash of violence we’ve see in the news lately, and threats of the kind of violence represented by January 6. A lot of it is because I don’t see any clear way to close the chasm that has opened up between the “sides” in this country. Or even to build a little rope bridge across it.
Between our national political meltdown and the pandemic, the world isn’t what it was. My notions of what human beings are capable of in the aggregate aren’t what they were, even recognizing what I already knew about the world. I now have to face the fact that even though I’ve had it relatively easy – or maybe because I’ve had it relatively easy? – reintegrating myself into the wider world isn’t going to be as straightforward as I thought it was. It feels a little like getting out of a spaceship on an unknown planet, armored and tense, and wondering: what is this place going to be like, anyhow?
How about the rest of you?
Lovely post. I understand the sentiment totally, things are going well, but there is a certain amount of, well, guilt that you are managing. It’s not really helped by the fact that playing Eeyore was never such a safe bet. I’m dealing with part time teachers and I’ve been setting things up so we can yet again go to online and there is some ‘why all the tech’. Well, surprise surprise, the umpteenth wave is on the way and we are going to required online courses again. It sucks to be correct…
Lovely post. I understand the sentiment totally, things are going well, but there is a certain amount of, well, guilt that you are managing. It’s not really helped by the fact that playing Eeyore was never such a safe bet. I’m dealing with part time teachers and I’ve been setting things up so we can yet again go to online and there is some ‘why all the tech’. Well, surprise surprise, the umpteenth wave is on the way and we are going to required online courses again. It sucks to be correct…
I should have said: Everyone close to me has been very careful — and lucky. I know that taking care isn’t necessarily enough in a world where there are no guarantees.
I read a quote not long ago that has come back to me again and again: “God didn’t promise us tomorrow.” Source: LeBron James, who I’m very glad does not just shut up and dribble.
I should have said: Everyone close to me has been very careful — and lucky. I know that taking care isn’t necessarily enough in a world where there are no guarantees.
I read a quote not long ago that has come back to me again and again: “God didn’t promise us tomorrow.” Source: LeBron James, who I’m very glad does not just shut up and dribble.
Yes, a lovely and timely post. I too have been lucky: no covid, and fairly hermitlike myself so no particular hardship from a lockdown which effectively started for me after the first week of February 2020. I was ill for a time in late 2020 and early 21, and had to have extensive and ennervating treatment for some months, but am much better now and starting, tentatively, to take care of business (dentist, drugstore etc). I was due to have my second vaccination today, but “supply problems” have postphoned it til the 30th, so there is that.
But for me too, the last few years (Trump, Brexit etc) continue to disturb me badly. How could these things actually have happened? It should have just been a bad dream.
It feels a little like getting out of a spaceship on an unknown planet, armored and tense, and wondering: what is this place going to be like, anyhow?
Beautifully and exactly put.
Yes, a lovely and timely post. I too have been lucky: no covid, and fairly hermitlike myself so no particular hardship from a lockdown which effectively started for me after the first week of February 2020. I was ill for a time in late 2020 and early 21, and had to have extensive and ennervating treatment for some months, but am much better now and starting, tentatively, to take care of business (dentist, drugstore etc). I was due to have my second vaccination today, but “supply problems” have postphoned it til the 30th, so there is that.
But for me too, the last few years (Trump, Brexit etc) continue to disturb me badly. How could these things actually have happened? It should have just been a bad dream.
It feels a little like getting out of a spaceship on an unknown planet, armored and tense, and wondering: what is this place going to be like, anyhow?
Beautifully and exactly put.
Monday was our 25th wedding anniversary. My wife and I hadn’t done anything of note involving just the two of us in a while, even before pandemic. We’re both fully vaccinated now, so I decided to get a room at the hotel we stayed in on our wedding night – that is, the hotel building. It was the Four Seasons in Center City, Philadelphia until a couple of years ago. The Four Seasons now occupies part of a new, very large, glass skyscraper a couple of blocks away from it’s former location. And it’s very expensive (for someone like me, anyway), so it was an easy choice to stick with the building rather than the name.
Anyway, I ordered takeout sushi to eat in our room from a place a few blocks from the hotel. Walking to the sushi place in the evening in Center City took me back to the early days of the pandemic when we were locked down hard in the New Jersey suburbs and it was eerily quite. I’m pretty sure NJ had one of the strictest lock-downs in the country at the beginning because of the number of cases in NYC-metro, and it was a serious mind-f**k.
I hadn’t spent much time in the city since the pandemic started, and certainly not under those circumstances – at that time of day in that part of the city. There were so few people, and almost everyone I did see was wearing a mask, even if they were alone outdoors. (I don’t generally see lone people wearing masks outdoors in the ‘burbs.)
It made my heart sink, seeing what was a lively, bustling place so desolate. The really strict lock-down in the suburbs seems like the distant past, at least in pandemic time, and something that was relatively short. Even though our lives are still very different than before the pandemic, our general surroundings don’t feel nearly as strange as they did at the beginning. But after all this time, Center City is still nothing like it used to be.
I don’t know if the few people who spend a lot of time there are used to it now, or if it’s something that they are forced to endure with increasing difficulty as time goes on. For me, the experience was like a flashback to a traumatic experience that I’ve tried to forget.
Thank FSM for the company of my bride and some sushi and champagne to pull my head out of it.
Monday was our 25th wedding anniversary. My wife and I hadn’t done anything of note involving just the two of us in a while, even before pandemic. We’re both fully vaccinated now, so I decided to get a room at the hotel we stayed in on our wedding night – that is, the hotel building. It was the Four Seasons in Center City, Philadelphia until a couple of years ago. The Four Seasons now occupies part of a new, very large, glass skyscraper a couple of blocks away from it’s former location. And it’s very expensive (for someone like me, anyway), so it was an easy choice to stick with the building rather than the name.
Anyway, I ordered takeout sushi to eat in our room from a place a few blocks from the hotel. Walking to the sushi place in the evening in Center City took me back to the early days of the pandemic when we were locked down hard in the New Jersey suburbs and it was eerily quite. I’m pretty sure NJ had one of the strictest lock-downs in the country at the beginning because of the number of cases in NYC-metro, and it was a serious mind-f**k.
I hadn’t spent much time in the city since the pandemic started, and certainly not under those circumstances – at that time of day in that part of the city. There were so few people, and almost everyone I did see was wearing a mask, even if they were alone outdoors. (I don’t generally see lone people wearing masks outdoors in the ‘burbs.)
It made my heart sink, seeing what was a lively, bustling place so desolate. The really strict lock-down in the suburbs seems like the distant past, at least in pandemic time, and something that was relatively short. Even though our lives are still very different than before the pandemic, our general surroundings don’t feel nearly as strange as they did at the beginning. But after all this time, Center City is still nothing like it used to be.
I don’t know if the few people who spend a lot of time there are used to it now, or if it’s something that they are forced to endure with increasing difficulty as time goes on. For me, the experience was like a flashback to a traumatic experience that I’ve tried to forget.
Thank FSM for the company of my bride and some sushi and champagne to pull my head out of it.
i haven’t seen anyone socially since September. and frankly, that’s been fine with me. we haven’t been to a bar or sit-down restaurant since last February. i only go out to stores and doctors. but, this Sunday there’s a casual memorial for a friend of friends. so, wife and i are going to go hang out with friends i haven’t seen in many months and people i’ve never seen before.
i’m … anxious.
i got dose #2 13 days ago, so i’m probably as protected as Mr Pfizer can make me. but that only reduces my anxiety so much. 90% isn’t perfect, and my wife’s J&J is even less so.
i’m sure it will be fine. i’m just not ready for the old world yet.
i haven’t seen anyone socially since September. and frankly, that’s been fine with me. we haven’t been to a bar or sit-down restaurant since last February. i only go out to stores and doctors. but, this Sunday there’s a casual memorial for a friend of friends. so, wife and i are going to go hang out with friends i haven’t seen in many months and people i’ve never seen before.
i’m … anxious.
i got dose #2 13 days ago, so i’m probably as protected as Mr Pfizer can make me. but that only reduces my anxiety so much. 90% isn’t perfect, and my wife’s J&J is even less so.
i’m sure it will be fine. i’m just not ready for the old world yet.
I have the luxury of working from home already. So the biggest impact on me was actually from doing various conferences on-line rather than in person. Which is fine if they are done on the American times zones. And not too bad on the East Asian time zones. But a real pain when the time zone for scheduling is Europe — grave shift is just not my favorite.
At this point, I’m all vaccinated, my wife gets her second shot next Friday, and the two couples we are most likely to socialize with are also on the brink of having their vaccinations finished. So . . . back to normal (for our standards of “normal”).
Sure, there’s stress worrying about how family members are doing. (Although they are pretty much all massive introverts, too.) And about how the country as a whole is doing. But it’s nothing to what people who have been having to work in public-facing jobs all year have been dealing with. Not to mention medical personnel. Call it luck or call it privilege, either way I seem to have it.
I have the luxury of working from home already. So the biggest impact on me was actually from doing various conferences on-line rather than in person. Which is fine if they are done on the American times zones. And not too bad on the East Asian time zones. But a real pain when the time zone for scheduling is Europe — grave shift is just not my favorite.
At this point, I’m all vaccinated, my wife gets her second shot next Friday, and the two couples we are most likely to socialize with are also on the brink of having their vaccinations finished. So . . . back to normal (for our standards of “normal”).
Sure, there’s stress worrying about how family members are doing. (Although they are pretty much all massive introverts, too.) And about how the country as a whole is doing. But it’s nothing to what people who have been having to work in public-facing jobs all year have been dealing with. Not to mention medical personnel. Call it luck or call it privilege, either way I seem to have it.
It’s been a mixed bag for me. My father died last year (heart failure) during the height of the surg. We vetoed driving through Utah (then in the throes of anti-shutdown protests) to get to Colorado so that we could sit at a memorial with another group of people decrying limits on gathering size as an attack on their religion. My mother had already passed a year before, so gathering with my brother and sister could wait. A year later we could, perhaps, make the journey, but not while the family continues to refuse vaccination and continues to protest.
There was a long, profound, embarrassed silence following the January 6th nonsense, but that has now been broken by the urge to gather maskless in public and sing praise songs to Jesus in defiance of whatever it is that fits their persecution fantasy. If I am dismayed by anything in this world it is recognizing just how far the people I love can be dragged from reality by an absurd narrative that flatters all of their cognitive biases.
We have one family in the neighborhood that we have visited in-person during the last year (six feet apart and masked), and another that we had met who have since moved to the PNW who we now meet on Zoom. Yet we are more involved than ever in our socializing because we have two regular weekly sessions of D&D that meet more consistently on Zoom and Roll20 than we ever could have managed in normal times, so it feels like we are actually more connected than we were before the pandemic.
And echoing JanieM’s invocation of science fiction tropes, my SF class has done better with engaging students since the outbreak than ever before. The Obama years really strained student interest in SF because the world seemed to them not to need alternatives. The Umber Hulk years saw a bit more connection with the genre, but the pandemic rendered their old world in alien perspective, and that really opened them to the power of estrangement as a mode of representation.
And here we are.
It’s been a mixed bag for me. My father died last year (heart failure) during the height of the surg. We vetoed driving through Utah (then in the throes of anti-shutdown protests) to get to Colorado so that we could sit at a memorial with another group of people decrying limits on gathering size as an attack on their religion. My mother had already passed a year before, so gathering with my brother and sister could wait. A year later we could, perhaps, make the journey, but not while the family continues to refuse vaccination and continues to protest.
There was a long, profound, embarrassed silence following the January 6th nonsense, but that has now been broken by the urge to gather maskless in public and sing praise songs to Jesus in defiance of whatever it is that fits their persecution fantasy. If I am dismayed by anything in this world it is recognizing just how far the people I love can be dragged from reality by an absurd narrative that flatters all of their cognitive biases.
We have one family in the neighborhood that we have visited in-person during the last year (six feet apart and masked), and another that we had met who have since moved to the PNW who we now meet on Zoom. Yet we are more involved than ever in our socializing because we have two regular weekly sessions of D&D that meet more consistently on Zoom and Roll20 than we ever could have managed in normal times, so it feels like we are actually more connected than we were before the pandemic.
And echoing JanieM’s invocation of science fiction tropes, my SF class has done better with engaging students since the outbreak than ever before. The Obama years really strained student interest in SF because the world seemed to them not to need alternatives. The Umber Hulk years saw a bit more connection with the genre, but the pandemic rendered their old world in alien perspective, and that really opened them to the power of estrangement as a mode of representation.
And here we are.
Lovely post, JanieM.
I’m grateful every day that the pandemic did not deprive me of health, life, or livelihood; that all my friends and relatives came through OK (so far); and that the lack of in-person social contact hardly bothered me.
I am less grateful – actually, appalled – at what the pandemic revealed about my country.
There were two responses to the pandemic:
One where people pulled together, rooted for each other, and took whatever precautions were needed to help everyone make it through.
The other was the polar opposite: selfish, ignorant solipsism raised to a political ideology. An ideology where every man is in fact an island, entire unto himself, and owes nothing to anyone else – in fact, asking otherwise is taken as an affront to his entire self-sufficiency, worthy of a violent reaction.
The latter aren’t merely a negligible number out on the fringes, either. There are enough to support a national authoritarian/fascist Party.
It was very eye-opening. I’ll never feel the same about “my fellow Americans,” knowing how many would be happy to attack or kill me just for wearing a mask.
Lovely post, JanieM.
I’m grateful every day that the pandemic did not deprive me of health, life, or livelihood; that all my friends and relatives came through OK (so far); and that the lack of in-person social contact hardly bothered me.
I am less grateful – actually, appalled – at what the pandemic revealed about my country.
There were two responses to the pandemic:
One where people pulled together, rooted for each other, and took whatever precautions were needed to help everyone make it through.
The other was the polar opposite: selfish, ignorant solipsism raised to a political ideology. An ideology where every man is in fact an island, entire unto himself, and owes nothing to anyone else – in fact, asking otherwise is taken as an affront to his entire self-sufficiency, worthy of a violent reaction.
The latter aren’t merely a negligible number out on the fringes, either. There are enough to support a national authoritarian/fascist Party.
It was very eye-opening. I’ll never feel the same about “my fellow Americans,” knowing how many would be happy to attack or kill me just for wearing a mask.
The upside there: if someone refuses to wear a mask, they are instantly identifiable as someone who doesn’t care about anyone but himself. It can be useful to find that out early, before you get very involved with them, either socially or for business or in any other way.
OK, it’s grasping at straws. But I actually think that, given that those people exist (and in such numbers), there’s something to be said for having them self-identify.
The upside there: if someone refuses to wear a mask, they are instantly identifiable as someone who doesn’t care about anyone but himself. It can be useful to find that out early, before you get very involved with them, either socially or for business or in any other way.
OK, it’s grasping at straws. But I actually think that, given that those people exist (and in such numbers), there’s something to be said for having them self-identify.
The responses to COVID only confirmed what I already thought after the former guy’s election.
The responses to COVID only confirmed what I already thought after the former guy’s election.
wj: the eternal looker-on-the-bright-side. It’s enviable in many ways, probably extremely good for one’s mental health.
wj: the eternal looker-on-the-bright-side. It’s enviable in many ways, probably extremely good for one’s mental health.
probably extremely good for one’s mental health
Especially when one has a tendency to depression otherwise. 😉
probably extremely good for one’s mental health
Especially when one has a tendency to depression otherwise. 😉
I would like to respond in depth but, I won’t. I have nuclear family, children and grandchildren that live MA and FL. They pretty much epitomize Caseyl’s ends of the spectrum, yet in every way outside masks and vaccines you couldn’t find more loving and caring group of people.
I lived the first 2/3 of the year in MA, isolated and safe. Never venturing beyond old peoples hours at the supermarket. Then I lived in FL from Oct until now.
The only conclusion I will share is that most of what’s common thought about “those” people on both sides is bs. No one really goes to public places in either places if they don’t feel well, or if they know they have been exposed. Young people are stupid everywhere and the risk of getting covid wasn’t much higher either place.
People have differing opinions on things in large part based on what seems right. In FL you simy don’t venture out if you are high risk, same in MA. You don’t visit with people who present a higher risk. Same in MA, the difference lies in the middle area where low risk people have tended to try to normalize their lives faster in FL.
Me, I go anywhere I want. I wear a mask if the establishment asks me to, I generally don’t now if not asked. I am, as far as I can tell, a minute covid risk to myself and others. I’m more likely to die in a c ar wreck on the way to the bar than from covid at this point. Those risks I have lived with all my life.
I find myself effected in quiet by the toll it has taken on others, I know lots of people who have now had it. Just a few acquaintances have passed.
I would like to respond in depth but, I won’t. I have nuclear family, children and grandchildren that live MA and FL. They pretty much epitomize Caseyl’s ends of the spectrum, yet in every way outside masks and vaccines you couldn’t find more loving and caring group of people.
I lived the first 2/3 of the year in MA, isolated and safe. Never venturing beyond old peoples hours at the supermarket. Then I lived in FL from Oct until now.
The only conclusion I will share is that most of what’s common thought about “those” people on both sides is bs. No one really goes to public places in either places if they don’t feel well, or if they know they have been exposed. Young people are stupid everywhere and the risk of getting covid wasn’t much higher either place.
People have differing opinions on things in large part based on what seems right. In FL you simy don’t venture out if you are high risk, same in MA. You don’t visit with people who present a higher risk. Same in MA, the difference lies in the middle area where low risk people have tended to try to normalize their lives faster in FL.
Me, I go anywhere I want. I wear a mask if the establishment asks me to, I generally don’t now if not asked. I am, as far as I can tell, a minute covid risk to myself and others. I’m more likely to die in a c ar wreck on the way to the bar than from covid at this point. Those risks I have lived with all my life.
I find myself effected in quiet by the toll it has taken on others, I know lots of people who have now had it. Just a few acquaintances have passed.
I am, as far as I can tell, a minute covid risk to myself and others.
Is this based solely (or mainly) on the fact that you have had covid? And if on other facts, are you prepared to elucidate?
I am, as far as I can tell, a minute covid risk to myself and others.
Is this based solely (or mainly) on the fact that you have had covid? And if on other facts, are you prepared to elucidate?
Plus fully vaccinated
Plus fully vaccinated
Ah, I see. Thank you Marty.
Ah, I see. Thank you Marty.
Marty, while your own calculus may make sense to you on how much of a risk you pose (and I am not arguing that point to say you are wrong) I wonder how your presence is viewed by the person in your community who is immunocompromised. How much anxiety and stress might you have added to that person’s life by deciding that you are no risk to them when they have no way of knowing that you have given one though to their own circumstances?
Not meant as a personal attack. I would word it more impersonally, but we are all smart enough here to make inferences from context, so I’m just putting this out there as food for thought.
Our own choice of public personal risk gets performed in public and sends messages to others of their own place in public, and choosing an exemption for oneself may place constraints upon others as a result.
Marty, while your own calculus may make sense to you on how much of a risk you pose (and I am not arguing that point to say you are wrong) I wonder how your presence is viewed by the person in your community who is immunocompromised. How much anxiety and stress might you have added to that person’s life by deciding that you are no risk to them when they have no way of knowing that you have given one though to their own circumstances?
Not meant as a personal attack. I would word it more impersonally, but we are all smart enough here to make inferences from context, so I’m just putting this out there as food for thought.
Our own choice of public personal risk gets performed in public and sends messages to others of their own place in public, and choosing an exemption for oneself may place constraints upon others as a result.
nous makes a good point, as so often. The people who see you (or anybody) out and about don’t know why you are not wearing a mask. It’s worth thinking about.
nous makes a good point, as so often. The people who see you (or anybody) out and about don’t know why you are not wearing a mask. It’s worth thinking about.
Eventually, we’ll reach the point where wearing a mask depends primarily on the actual risks. To you and to others. Speed the day!
But at the moment, we are still in a place where wearing a mask, or not, is at least as much about making a statement as about actual risks. Regretable, but true. And even if you don’t see yourself as making a statement, others are going to perceive a message regardlees.
Eventually, we’ll reach the point where wearing a mask depends primarily on the actual risks. To you and to others. Speed the day!
But at the moment, we are still in a place where wearing a mask, or not, is at least as much about making a statement as about actual risks. Regretable, but true. And even if you don’t see yourself as making a statement, others are going to perceive a message regardlees.
nous, certainly why I wear it in places where it is requested. I would expect those people who are immunocompromised as I am to make a calculus on those places where it is not.
Mine was to avoid them. As we get a majority of people immunized it will be more difficult to enforce those things that simply don’t apply to them.
nous, certainly why I wear it in places where it is requested. I would expect those people who are immunocompromised as I am to make a calculus on those places where it is not.
Mine was to avoid them. As we get a majority of people immunized it will be more difficult to enforce those things that simply don’t apply to them.
I’ve only worn a mask outside when entering and exiting stores and other public spaces. Even though I live in a city of 287,000, I can walk for miles along the streets without encountering anyone else. And the risk is so close to zero as not to matter when walking past the occasional pedestrian.
I’ve only worn a mask outside when entering and exiting stores and other public spaces. Even though I live in a city of 287,000, I can walk for miles along the streets without encountering anyone else. And the risk is so close to zero as not to matter when walking past the occasional pedestrian.
I probably wouldn’t have stayed in a hotel if my wife and I weren’t fully vaccinated, though in hindsight it seemed much safer than going to the grocery store. Everyone was masked and people were few and far between.
Other than the hotel stay, my behavior hasn’t changed. I’m just less anxious about things like going to the store and such. I can’t imagine walking into an indoor public space without a mask. No one here does that that I’ve seen but for the rare and controversial exception.
I probably wouldn’t have stayed in a hotel if my wife and I weren’t fully vaccinated, though in hindsight it seemed much safer than going to the grocery store. Everyone was masked and people were few and far between.
Other than the hotel stay, my behavior hasn’t changed. I’m just less anxious about things like going to the store and such. I can’t imagine walking into an indoor public space without a mask. No one here does that that I’ve seen but for the rare and controversial exception.
Even before I left MA the corner packy was about 50%. I always wore one.
Even before I left MA the corner packy was about 50%. I always wore one.
in every way outside masks and vaccines you couldn’t find more loving and caring group of people.
to me, the question is how wide the circle of ‘loving and caring’ extends. and, probably, what inconvenience you are willing to take on yourself to make that real.
everybody’s ‘loving and caring’ to the people they personally care about, and who personally care about them.
just speaking for myself, I see it this way – a shitload of people died from this fucking virus. if you can’t wear a damned mask to help rein it in, I’m not really interested in how loving and caring you are, I just want you to stay the hell away from me. your loving and caring self could quite easily still be the death of me, so stay the f**k away.
it’s great that you’re vaxed. that means you probably won’t get particularly sick or die if you are exposed to the virus. it doesn’t mean you can’t hand it off to somebody else.
to me, somebody not wearing a mask in public means they don’t really give a shit if they cause my death. not enough that they can be bothered to wear a damned piece of cloth over your mouth and nose. so I’m just gonna stay the hell away from anyone like that. I won’t get in a car that’s being driven by a drunk, and I won’t be around people who won’t wear a mask in public places. Those things seem pretty much equivalent to me.
to be completely honest, this is just not something I’m even all interested in debating. it’s a waste of time. people are gonna do whatever the hell they want. I just them to stay the hell away from me.
the fact that you, personally, are unlikely to get sick, does not mean that you can’t carry the virus or hand it off to somebody else. I don’t know if you realize that or not, but that is the reality. if that matters to you, act accordingly. if not, then nothing anybody here has to say is going to change anything you do.
in every way outside masks and vaccines you couldn’t find more loving and caring group of people.
to me, the question is how wide the circle of ‘loving and caring’ extends. and, probably, what inconvenience you are willing to take on yourself to make that real.
everybody’s ‘loving and caring’ to the people they personally care about, and who personally care about them.
just speaking for myself, I see it this way – a shitload of people died from this fucking virus. if you can’t wear a damned mask to help rein it in, I’m not really interested in how loving and caring you are, I just want you to stay the hell away from me. your loving and caring self could quite easily still be the death of me, so stay the f**k away.
it’s great that you’re vaxed. that means you probably won’t get particularly sick or die if you are exposed to the virus. it doesn’t mean you can’t hand it off to somebody else.
to me, somebody not wearing a mask in public means they don’t really give a shit if they cause my death. not enough that they can be bothered to wear a damned piece of cloth over your mouth and nose. so I’m just gonna stay the hell away from anyone like that. I won’t get in a car that’s being driven by a drunk, and I won’t be around people who won’t wear a mask in public places. Those things seem pretty much equivalent to me.
to be completely honest, this is just not something I’m even all interested in debating. it’s a waste of time. people are gonna do whatever the hell they want. I just them to stay the hell away from me.
the fact that you, personally, are unlikely to get sick, does not mean that you can’t carry the virus or hand it off to somebody else. I don’t know if you realize that or not, but that is the reality. if that matters to you, act accordingly. if not, then nothing anybody here has to say is going to change anything you do.
as far as finding current times particularly disturbing or unsettling or frightening…
In my lifetime, marginalized people weren’t just marginalized, they were systematically excluded from full participation in society by law and by ubiquitous common practice.
Also in my lifetime, the police and intelligence agencies of the nation engaged in deliberate and systematic programs of suppressing dissenting voices, up to and including assassination.
Also in my lifetime, civil unrest resulted in cities on fire at a scale that makes the great George Floyd BLM protests look almost trivial.
COVID has been a nightmare in many ways, but if we go back before my lifetime, there has been polio, and other outbreaks of influenza, and cholera, and any number of other plagues great and small.
So I’m oddly optimistic. I’m looking forward to seeing friends and family in person again, and maybe playing some music with people, and maybe, someday, traveling a bit again. All of those things are either highly likely or certain to happen.
The freaking madness of Trump and Trump-ishness is pretty much that, it’s insane. So it has a sell-by date. Reality always wins. I won’t say it doesn’t concern me, it’s an expression of a deep and long-standing set of issues and tendencies, here and elsewhere. But it’s a bag of lies, so it can’t and won’t endure. Or at least prevail. That’s my thought.
As a function of my basic personality and temperament, I am by nature skeptical and pessimistic. But I’m not afraid.
Members don’t get weary. Keep your eyes on the prize. Those are my mottoes, I guess.
as far as finding current times particularly disturbing or unsettling or frightening…
In my lifetime, marginalized people weren’t just marginalized, they were systematically excluded from full participation in society by law and by ubiquitous common practice.
Also in my lifetime, the police and intelligence agencies of the nation engaged in deliberate and systematic programs of suppressing dissenting voices, up to and including assassination.
Also in my lifetime, civil unrest resulted in cities on fire at a scale that makes the great George Floyd BLM protests look almost trivial.
COVID has been a nightmare in many ways, but if we go back before my lifetime, there has been polio, and other outbreaks of influenza, and cholera, and any number of other plagues great and small.
So I’m oddly optimistic. I’m looking forward to seeing friends and family in person again, and maybe playing some music with people, and maybe, someday, traveling a bit again. All of those things are either highly likely or certain to happen.
The freaking madness of Trump and Trump-ishness is pretty much that, it’s insane. So it has a sell-by date. Reality always wins. I won’t say it doesn’t concern me, it’s an expression of a deep and long-standing set of issues and tendencies, here and elsewhere. But it’s a bag of lies, so it can’t and won’t endure. Or at least prevail. That’s my thought.
As a function of my basic personality and temperament, I am by nature skeptical and pessimistic. But I’m not afraid.
Members don’t get weary. Keep your eyes on the prize. Those are my mottoes, I guess.
“the fact that you, personally, are unlikely to get sick, does not mean that you can’t carry the virus or hand it off to somebody else. I don’t know if you realize that or not, but that is the reality. if that matters to you, act accordingly. if not, then nothing anybody here has to say is going to change anything you do.”
This just isn’t true. Sure there is some miniscule chance I can still get it, which creates a miniscule chance that I could pass it along. That will exist, forever. Are you suggesting based on those chances we should wear a mask forever? That is a serious question.
“the fact that you, personally, are unlikely to get sick, does not mean that you can’t carry the virus or hand it off to somebody else. I don’t know if you realize that or not, but that is the reality. if that matters to you, act accordingly. if not, then nothing anybody here has to say is going to change anything you do.”
This just isn’t true. Sure there is some miniscule chance I can still get it, which creates a miniscule chance that I could pass it along. That will exist, forever. Are you suggesting based on those chances we should wear a mask forever? That is a serious question.
This just isn’t true.
Well, says you.
CDC says otherwise.
we should wear a mask forever?
If you’re asking me, then I’d say wear a mask in public places until herd immunity is established.
I’m not an epidemiologist, so I’d ignore what I say and follow CDC recommendations.
Or, you know, do what you want.
This just isn’t true.
Well, says you.
CDC says otherwise.
we should wear a mask forever?
If you’re asking me, then I’d say wear a mask in public places until herd immunity is established.
I’m not an epidemiologist, so I’d ignore what I say and follow CDC recommendations.
Or, you know, do what you want.
The CDC is actually not very good at this.
After you’ve been fully vaccinated against COVID-19, you should keep taking precautions—like wearing a mask, staying 6 feet apart from others, and avoiding crowds and poorly ventilated spaces—in public places until we know more.
So, we don’t know enough to actually tell you what your risks are to yourself or others, However:
Visit with other fully vaccinated people indoors without wearing masks or physical distancing
Visit with unvaccinated people from a single household who are at low risk for severe COVID-19 disease indoors without wearing masks or physical distancing
Refrain from quarantine and testing following a known exposure if asymptomatic
Resume domestic travel and refrain from testing before or after travel or self-quarantine after travel.
Refrain from testing before leaving the United States for international travel (unless required by the destination) and refrain from self-quarantine after arriving back in the United States.
For now, fully vaccinated people should continue to:
Take precautions in public like wearing a well-fitted mask and physical distancing
Wear masks, practice physical distancing, and adhere to other prevention measures when visiting with unvaccinated people who are at increased risk for severe COVID-19 disease or who have an unvaccinated household member who is at increased risk for severe COVID-19 disease
Wear masks, maintain physical distance, and practice other prevention measures when visiting with unvaccinated people from multiple households
Avoid medium- and large-sized in-person gatherings
Get tested if experiencing COVID-19 symptoms
Follow guidance issued by individual employers
Follow CDC and health department travel requirements and recommendations
So, I should avoid medium size groups but I can get on a plane and not get tested before or after. I can visit with one family but not with two. With no mask or distancing and even if exposed there is no need for me to get tested.
And then the obvious, I should avoid high risk people with comorbidities, one of my daughters fits that and we sure as he’ll have avoided her, but now she’s vaccinated so we get to see her.
The sum of all that is that I’m not much of a risk to me or others in general so I where a mask when entering public places that request me to, even if no one else is wearing one. I avoid high risk people and the rest is a mix of politics and cya language that utterly fails at defining the actual risk. Because the just don’t know.
I am sympathetic to the desire to oversell the vaccines but I am also sympathetic to people who wonder why vaccinated people still need to do all this stuff if the vaccine works, after a year of being told the endgame for returning to normal was a vaccine.
In a world where you can have a concert except you can’t sing legally, you should expect intelligent people to make informed decisions for themselves.
The CDC is actually not very good at this.
After you’ve been fully vaccinated against COVID-19, you should keep taking precautions—like wearing a mask, staying 6 feet apart from others, and avoiding crowds and poorly ventilated spaces—in public places until we know more.
So, we don’t know enough to actually tell you what your risks are to yourself or others, However:
Visit with other fully vaccinated people indoors without wearing masks or physical distancing
Visit with unvaccinated people from a single household who are at low risk for severe COVID-19 disease indoors without wearing masks or physical distancing
Refrain from quarantine and testing following a known exposure if asymptomatic
Resume domestic travel and refrain from testing before or after travel or self-quarantine after travel.
Refrain from testing before leaving the United States for international travel (unless required by the destination) and refrain from self-quarantine after arriving back in the United States.
For now, fully vaccinated people should continue to:
Take precautions in public like wearing a well-fitted mask and physical distancing
Wear masks, practice physical distancing, and adhere to other prevention measures when visiting with unvaccinated people who are at increased risk for severe COVID-19 disease or who have an unvaccinated household member who is at increased risk for severe COVID-19 disease
Wear masks, maintain physical distance, and practice other prevention measures when visiting with unvaccinated people from multiple households
Avoid medium- and large-sized in-person gatherings
Get tested if experiencing COVID-19 symptoms
Follow guidance issued by individual employers
Follow CDC and health department travel requirements and recommendations
So, I should avoid medium size groups but I can get on a plane and not get tested before or after. I can visit with one family but not with two. With no mask or distancing and even if exposed there is no need for me to get tested.
And then the obvious, I should avoid high risk people with comorbidities, one of my daughters fits that and we sure as he’ll have avoided her, but now she’s vaccinated so we get to see her.
The sum of all that is that I’m not much of a risk to me or others in general so I where a mask when entering public places that request me to, even if no one else is wearing one. I avoid high risk people and the rest is a mix of politics and cya language that utterly fails at defining the actual risk. Because the just don’t know.
I am sympathetic to the desire to oversell the vaccines but I am also sympathetic to people who wonder why vaccinated people still need to do all this stuff if the vaccine works, after a year of being told the endgame for returning to normal was a vaccine.
In a world where you can have a concert except you can’t sing legally, you should expect intelligent people to make informed decisions for themselves.
So, we don’t know enough to actually tell you what your risks are to yourself or others
you should expect intelligent people to make informed decisions for themselves
How does that work? These intelligent people know more than is known?
It’s not in fact all that complicated. We know that Covid vaccines greatly reduce but do not eliminate the risk of symptomatic disease. We know that for most diseases generally vaccines do not eliminate the risk of transmission by a vaccinated person.
So those of us who have been vaccinated are less likely to pass on Covid, but still might.
I’m baffled by the notion that it’s ok for someone not to incur the mild inconvenience of wearing a mask because “they just don’t know” how great the risk is of infecting others.
So, we don’t know enough to actually tell you what your risks are to yourself or others
you should expect intelligent people to make informed decisions for themselves
How does that work? These intelligent people know more than is known?
It’s not in fact all that complicated. We know that Covid vaccines greatly reduce but do not eliminate the risk of symptomatic disease. We know that for most diseases generally vaccines do not eliminate the risk of transmission by a vaccinated person.
So those of us who have been vaccinated are less likely to pass on Covid, but still might.
I’m baffled by the notion that it’s ok for someone not to incur the mild inconvenience of wearing a mask because “they just don’t know” how great the risk is of infecting others.
I was struck by Marty’s mention of “the corner packy”, which the internet tells me is a corner shop selling, among other things, packaged alcoholic drinks.
In England we used to have “Paki shops” – we still have the shops, but the name is not much used, since we’ve become less crass. These were local shops distinguished by their long opening hours. They arose in the 1970s, usually owned and run by Ugandan Asians, mostly Gujarati not Pakistani, who had been expelled by Idi Amin. Despite the racial connotations, the word was used positively – most people were pleased with the service.
So homophones with closely similar meanings but entirely different origins.
I was struck by Marty’s mention of “the corner packy”, which the internet tells me is a corner shop selling, among other things, packaged alcoholic drinks.
In England we used to have “Paki shops” – we still have the shops, but the name is not much used, since we’ve become less crass. These were local shops distinguished by their long opening hours. They arose in the 1970s, usually owned and run by Ugandan Asians, mostly Gujarati not Pakistani, who had been expelled by Idi Amin. Despite the racial connotations, the word was used positively – most people were pleased with the service.
So homophones with closely similar meanings but entirely different origins.
I am baffled by the notion that there is no level of this that will ever be achieved that will remove the theatrical desire to have everyone masked. It is a ludicrous conversation. There will NEVER be zero chance of catching or transmitting this virus.
But WE DO KNOW “Less likely” is actually a whole lot less likely. Not zero but live your life normally less likely.
A short review of that list demonstrates that the CDC believes that. It splits hairs “no medium sized groups”, “one family”, they are pretty sure the vaccine works but still can’t just say if your vaccinated then just go on with your life.
Also, The only time a mask protects anyone else is in confined spaces within six feet. So I still avoid close contact in any public setting, masked or not. That habit probably won’t go away.
I am baffled by the notion that there is no level of this that will ever be achieved that will remove the theatrical desire to have everyone masked. It is a ludicrous conversation. There will NEVER be zero chance of catching or transmitting this virus.
But WE DO KNOW “Less likely” is actually a whole lot less likely. Not zero but live your life normally less likely.
A short review of that list demonstrates that the CDC believes that. It splits hairs “no medium sized groups”, “one family”, they are pretty sure the vaccine works but still can’t just say if your vaccinated then just go on with your life.
Also, The only time a mask protects anyone else is in confined spaces within six feet. So I still avoid close contact in any public setting, masked or not. That habit probably won’t go away.
The CDC is actually not very good at this.
But you, however, are.
Look Marty, you caught Covid between your first and second fax. Odds of that are low, yet it happened.
Everybody is entitled to assume whatever risks they like for themselves. Nobody is entitled to make those choices for other people. That’s my own personal calculus, FWIW.
Whether people are loving and caring or are generally nice people has bugger-all to do with it.
The CDC recommends that people wear masks and observe social distancing until we all understand how effective the van is at preventing transmission and/or we reach herd immunity. It’s not that big of an ask. You believe yourself to be better qualified than the CDC to make judgements about these things. So you’re gonna do what you want to do.
So if I bump into you, or the many millions of people like you, I will give you a very wide berth.
You make your choice, that’s mine.
The CDC is actually not very good at this.
But you, however, are.
Look Marty, you caught Covid between your first and second fax. Odds of that are low, yet it happened.
Everybody is entitled to assume whatever risks they like for themselves. Nobody is entitled to make those choices for other people. That’s my own personal calculus, FWIW.
Whether people are loving and caring or are generally nice people has bugger-all to do with it.
The CDC recommends that people wear masks and observe social distancing until we all understand how effective the van is at preventing transmission and/or we reach herd immunity. It’s not that big of an ask. You believe yourself to be better qualified than the CDC to make judgements about these things. So you’re gonna do what you want to do.
So if I bump into you, or the many millions of people like you, I will give you a very wide berth.
You make your choice, that’s mine.
I’m baffled by the notion that it’s ok for someone not to incur the mild inconvenience of wearing a mask because “they just don’t know” how great the risk is of infecting others.
Nothing baffling about it. Welcome to America, land of the free.
I’m baffled by the notion that it’s ok for someone not to incur the mild inconvenience of wearing a mask because “they just don’t know” how great the risk is of infecting others.
Nothing baffling about it. Welcome to America, land of the free.
“But you, however, are”
It’s not my job, they just aren’t good at communication. I have to try to figure how what they are really saying and what it means I should be worried about.
“But you, however, are”
It’s not my job, they just aren’t good at communication. I have to try to figure how what they are really saying and what it means I should be worried about.
The CDC is actually not very good at this.
But you, however, are.
This is right at the heart of why I say I’m living on a different planet from the one I thought I was. A friend of a friend of my kids decided right at the start that he was going to “do his own research” — and he hasn’t worn masks from the start, in any situation where he can get away with it. My kids don’t go near him now.
My son, who like me went to MIT, has told me about the level of snark over this shit among people he knows who do actual research rather than “research” via poking around among articles on the internet by uncertainly credentialed idiots, or just uncredentialed idiots.
“Research” and “logic” by people who have no relevant professional competence whatsoever, and who come to a different “conclusion” from the epidemiologists and doctors and scientists of all other sorts, and then belligerently shove their “conclusions” in our faces, sometimes to the point of killing people over them (recent case, Michigan I think….others earlier). And that’s to say nothing of killing people via the virus itself.
Unbelievable.
The CDC is actually not very good at this.
But you, however, are.
This is right at the heart of why I say I’m living on a different planet from the one I thought I was. A friend of a friend of my kids decided right at the start that he was going to “do his own research” — and he hasn’t worn masks from the start, in any situation where he can get away with it. My kids don’t go near him now.
My son, who like me went to MIT, has told me about the level of snark over this shit among people he knows who do actual research rather than “research” via poking around among articles on the internet by uncertainly credentialed idiots, or just uncredentialed idiots.
“Research” and “logic” by people who have no relevant professional competence whatsoever, and who come to a different “conclusion” from the epidemiologists and doctors and scientists of all other sorts, and then belligerently shove their “conclusions” in our faces, sometimes to the point of killing people over them (recent case, Michigan I think….others earlier). And that’s to say nothing of killing people via the virus itself.
Unbelievable.
So if I bump into you, or the many millions of people like you, I will give you a very wide berth.
The attitude of those millions is most eloquently expressed by a woman who, with a small group, spent a lot of time protesting COVID restrictions on the main downtown corner in Belfast, Maine: “I’m not responsible for your health.”
A very wide berth indeed. Murderous idiots.
So if I bump into you, or the many millions of people like you, I will give you a very wide berth.
The attitude of those millions is most eloquently expressed by a woman who, with a small group, spent a lot of time protesting COVID restrictions on the main downtown corner in Belfast, Maine: “I’m not responsible for your health.”
A very wide berth indeed. Murderous idiots.
Daily new cases are still above 60K in the US, so asking if we’ll have to wear masks forever seems premature. And the more it circulates, the more it mutates. Your vaccination may not be effective against a new variant. Not wearing a mask in public indoor spaces is just f**king stupid.
Daily new cases are still above 60K in the US, so asking if we’ll have to wear masks forever seems premature. And the more it circulates, the more it mutates. Your vaccination may not be effective against a new variant. Not wearing a mask in public indoor spaces is just f**king stupid.
it’s not that big of an ask
That’s one of the most amazing parts (as in amazingly dismaying). It’s just a freaking mask! It’s not like people are being asked to cut off their right arm!
It’s like: we don’t know as much as we’d like about this virus even now, or what ideal best practices would be. So because there’s uncertainty, and because communication hasn’t been 100% perfect (2+2=4, wouldn’t that be nice), wtf, I’m not going to make this minor sacrifice to be extra sure I don’t pass the virus from one person to another.
I can’t even. WTMFF.
it’s not that big of an ask
That’s one of the most amazing parts (as in amazingly dismaying). It’s just a freaking mask! It’s not like people are being asked to cut off their right arm!
It’s like: we don’t know as much as we’d like about this virus even now, or what ideal best practices would be. So because there’s uncertainty, and because communication hasn’t been 100% perfect (2+2=4, wouldn’t that be nice), wtf, I’m not going to make this minor sacrifice to be extra sure I don’t pass the virus from one person to another.
I can’t even. WTMFF.
hsh — Not wearing a mask in public indoor spaces is just f**king stupid.
Not just stupid but sorry, murderously stupid.
We are in this third or is it fourth wave because there were too many millions of people right from the start who couldn’t be bothered, and so kept spreading the virus. Eight people, and that’s only the relatively direct connections, died because of that wedding in Maine last spring, and the pastor who performed the marriage never stopped defying COVID rules. And he was the tip of the iceberg.
As for wearing a mask now: Marty makes the direct connection with the idea that we’re going to be back to “normal” sometime and that means not wearing a mask. Never mind that as hsh’s numbers show, we’re not remotely back to normal.
We’ve got a significant population of people who are fine with a lottery that in effect kills a percentage of their neighbors unnecessarily. I guess they don’t think it will happen to them.
Funny how much like the US gun insanity that sounds.
hsh — Not wearing a mask in public indoor spaces is just f**king stupid.
Not just stupid but sorry, murderously stupid.
We are in this third or is it fourth wave because there were too many millions of people right from the start who couldn’t be bothered, and so kept spreading the virus. Eight people, and that’s only the relatively direct connections, died because of that wedding in Maine last spring, and the pastor who performed the marriage never stopped defying COVID rules. And he was the tip of the iceberg.
As for wearing a mask now: Marty makes the direct connection with the idea that we’re going to be back to “normal” sometime and that means not wearing a mask. Never mind that as hsh’s numbers show, we’re not remotely back to normal.
We’ve got a significant population of people who are fine with a lottery that in effect kills a percentage of their neighbors unnecessarily. I guess they don’t think it will happen to them.
Funny how much like the US gun insanity that sounds.
Meanwhile, we’re starting to hit the wall of vaccine hesitancy/skepticism/defiance. A significant percentage of our fellow Americans will keep this thing alive in sufficient volume over sufficient time for it mutate and adapt, so the rest of us may well have to wear masks forever. If you don’t want to wear masks forever, wear one now and get vaccinated. Not enough people will do both.
Also, too, don’t think that what’s happening in India now isn’t going to affect the rest of the planet eventually.
Meanwhile, we’re starting to hit the wall of vaccine hesitancy/skepticism/defiance. A significant percentage of our fellow Americans will keep this thing alive in sufficient volume over sufficient time for it mutate and adapt, so the rest of us may well have to wear masks forever. If you don’t want to wear masks forever, wear one now and get vaccinated. Not enough people will do both.
Also, too, don’t think that what’s happening in India now isn’t going to affect the rest of the planet eventually.
Not to mention Brazil.
Not to mention Brazil.
Have just read (sorry, cannot now find the link) that there are large swathes of the US where almost no vaccine is being taken up, and pharmacists are begging people (to no avail) to come in for vaccination – in a country where 560,000 people have already died, and rising.
Meanwhile, here is the NYT today on the calculations about when to wear a mask etc:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/22/well/live/covid-masks-outdoors.html?action=click&module=Science%20%20Technology&pgtype=Homepage
Have just read (sorry, cannot now find the link) that there are large swathes of the US where almost no vaccine is being taken up, and pharmacists are begging people (to no avail) to come in for vaccination – in a country where 560,000 people have already died, and rising.
Meanwhile, here is the NYT today on the calculations about when to wear a mask etc:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/22/well/live/covid-masks-outdoors.html?action=click&module=Science%20%20Technology&pgtype=Homepage
Nobody is asking anybody to wear masks forever, and nobody expects that we’ll have to wear masks forever. At the rate that vaccines are being given, my guess FWIW is that we could probably get to something like herd immunity here in the US in a year, maybe less. Assuming enough people actually got vaccinated.
Covid was the 3rd leading cause of death in 2020, and is the leading cause of death so far in the US in 2021. Order of magnitude, something like 1 in 500 people have died from COVID in the US in the last year. And we don’t have it as badly as a lot of other places. It’s a nasty freaking virus.
We’d all like to get back to ‘normal’, where ‘normal’ means worrying about a virus is not front and center in everybody’s mind. Our understanding of virus is incomplete, so organizations like the CDC give the best direction they can with the evidence they have in hand. I’m sure their recommendations will change as more is known and understood, and as the conditions on the ground change. The direction they do give seems, to me, pretty easy to understand and follow, other’s MMV.
We don’t have a regime that imposes any legal or other sanction for not observing CDC guidelines, and we probably don’t want one. I don’t. So people are gonna do what they think is best.
I don’t hate people who either decline or outright refuse to do simple things like wear masks in public. Some of them make me angry, because no few of them are quite belligerent about it. But basically I avoid them, because not wearing a mask in public places where other people are around seems, to me, a reckless and foolish thing to do, and I’m not interested in putting my own health and safety in the hands of reckless and foolish people.
So long story short, people are gonna do what they want to do, and I’m going to avoid the ones who present a risk to me and mine.
In this country, specifically, there are a lot of people who are infatuated with the idea that nobody, and certainly nobody from the damned government, is gonna tell them what to do. That is a position that is impervious to any attempt at persuasion. So I make no effort to persuade. I just stay the hell away.
Nobody is asking anybody to wear masks forever, and nobody expects that we’ll have to wear masks forever. At the rate that vaccines are being given, my guess FWIW is that we could probably get to something like herd immunity here in the US in a year, maybe less. Assuming enough people actually got vaccinated.
Covid was the 3rd leading cause of death in 2020, and is the leading cause of death so far in the US in 2021. Order of magnitude, something like 1 in 500 people have died from COVID in the US in the last year. And we don’t have it as badly as a lot of other places. It’s a nasty freaking virus.
We’d all like to get back to ‘normal’, where ‘normal’ means worrying about a virus is not front and center in everybody’s mind. Our understanding of virus is incomplete, so organizations like the CDC give the best direction they can with the evidence they have in hand. I’m sure their recommendations will change as more is known and understood, and as the conditions on the ground change. The direction they do give seems, to me, pretty easy to understand and follow, other’s MMV.
We don’t have a regime that imposes any legal or other sanction for not observing CDC guidelines, and we probably don’t want one. I don’t. So people are gonna do what they think is best.
I don’t hate people who either decline or outright refuse to do simple things like wear masks in public. Some of them make me angry, because no few of them are quite belligerent about it. But basically I avoid them, because not wearing a mask in public places where other people are around seems, to me, a reckless and foolish thing to do, and I’m not interested in putting my own health and safety in the hands of reckless and foolish people.
So long story short, people are gonna do what they want to do, and I’m going to avoid the ones who present a risk to me and mine.
In this country, specifically, there are a lot of people who are infatuated with the idea that nobody, and certainly nobody from the damned government, is gonna tell them what to do. That is a position that is impervious to any attempt at persuasion. So I make no effort to persuade. I just stay the hell away.
thanks, GOP. you’re the best.
thanks, GOP. you’re the best.
This is right at the heart of why I say I’m living on a different planet from the one I thought I was.
To me, it’s an indication that we’re on the same planet we’ve always been on.
But I’m a cranky old fart.
🙂
This is right at the heart of why I say I’m living on a different planet from the one I thought I was.
To me, it’s an indication that we’re on the same planet we’ve always been on.
But I’m a cranky old fart.
🙂
I doubt you would out-cranky me in a contest, russell. It’s just that despite a lifelong sequence of knocks about the head that should have made this situation unsurprising, I still held a little flickering belief in a for-all-practical-purposes-universal sense of decency that would have inspired people to give a shit whether their neighbors died agonizing deaths that they could have helped prevent.
After the past five years, I don’t know why I thought that, actually.
I doubt you would out-cranky me in a contest, russell. It’s just that despite a lifelong sequence of knocks about the head that should have made this situation unsurprising, I still held a little flickering belief in a for-all-practical-purposes-universal sense of decency that would have inspired people to give a shit whether their neighbors died agonizing deaths that they could have helped prevent.
After the past five years, I don’t know why I thought that, actually.
I’m older, too, by a not insignificant amount. 😉
I’m older, too, by a not insignificant amount. 😉
Man, I don’t know. I’m thinking I was going to keep wearing a mask on public transport. It’s not like I want to run an Algonquin Round Table while I’m sitting on a crowded airplane, I usually have an ipad. I wore a mask a lot in Korea, there was a big problem with Yellow Dust
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_Dust
Man, I don’t know. I’m thinking I was going to keep wearing a mask on public transport. It’s not like I want to run an Algonquin Round Table while I’m sitting on a crowded airplane, I usually have an ipad. I wore a mask a lot in Korea, there was a big problem with Yellow Dust
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_Dust
Yes, for the foreseeable future I assume I’ll be wearing a mask outdoors (or of course indoors in shops etc) in public, only taking it off when (for example) with friends, socially distanced, in their gardens. I don’t have a garden unfortunately. But I’m resisting even that level of exposure (for myself or others) until two or three weeks after my second vaccination.
And very luckily for me, I almost never have to take public transport. But on the rare occasions when I have to take a bus, I will (even when fully vaccinated) continue to wear a mask for the foreseeable future.
Yes, for the foreseeable future I assume I’ll be wearing a mask outdoors (or of course indoors in shops etc) in public, only taking it off when (for example) with friends, socially distanced, in their gardens. I don’t have a garden unfortunately. But I’m resisting even that level of exposure (for myself or others) until two or three weeks after my second vaccination.
And very luckily for me, I almost never have to take public transport. But on the rare occasions when I have to take a bus, I will (even when fully vaccinated) continue to wear a mask for the foreseeable future.
In the winter (or what counted as winter last season, although it lacked quite a lot of the charcteristics one traditionally associates with winter) a mask actually provided some comfort. Summer will be nasty when the thing slowly fills up with sweat and has to get drained at least twice an hour. In theory one should replace it anytime it gets really moist since it protection value drops radically when not dry. And those FFP2 mask are not be washed.
Personally I have gotten quite used to wearing the mask but it is awkward in combination with a beard (and my skin does not like shaving too often).
I’d like to try this ( https://www.japantrends.com/japan-trends/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/usb-pollen-blocker-suit-hood-hay-fever-main.jpg ) if it was available around here and at a decent price. May also work as a sun shade and leaves the facial feature visible. Less awkward than this oldie I presume: https://media.sciencephoto.com/image/c0075369/800wm
In the winter (or what counted as winter last season, although it lacked quite a lot of the charcteristics one traditionally associates with winter) a mask actually provided some comfort. Summer will be nasty when the thing slowly fills up with sweat and has to get drained at least twice an hour. In theory one should replace it anytime it gets really moist since it protection value drops radically when not dry. And those FFP2 mask are not be washed.
Personally I have gotten quite used to wearing the mask but it is awkward in combination with a beard (and my skin does not like shaving too often).
I’d like to try this ( https://www.japantrends.com/japan-trends/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/usb-pollen-blocker-suit-hood-hay-fever-main.jpg ) if it was available around here and at a decent price. May also work as a sun shade and leaves the facial feature visible. Less awkward than this oldie I presume: https://media.sciencephoto.com/image/c0075369/800wm
Some of that is because of the virus itself, but a lot of it is because of the way people have reacted to the virus. Some of it is because of the rash of violence we’ve see in the news lately, and threats of the kind of violence represented by January 6. A lot of it is because I don’t see any clear way to close the chasm that has opened up between the “sides” in this country. Or even to build a little rope bridge across it.
Meanwhile, following on from Janie’s comment in the OP, it seems that R attitudes to everything (not just responses to vaccination and the pandemic generally) are continuing to harden or, if anything, become even more extreme:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/22/opinion/trump-gop.html?smid=tw-share
I’d say pessimism is the only rational reaction, but then I’m not wj.
Some of that is because of the virus itself, but a lot of it is because of the way people have reacted to the virus. Some of it is because of the rash of violence we’ve see in the news lately, and threats of the kind of violence represented by January 6. A lot of it is because I don’t see any clear way to close the chasm that has opened up between the “sides” in this country. Or even to build a little rope bridge across it.
Meanwhile, following on from Janie’s comment in the OP, it seems that R attitudes to everything (not just responses to vaccination and the pandemic generally) are continuing to harden or, if anything, become even more extreme:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/22/opinion/trump-gop.html?smid=tw-share
I’d say pessimism is the only rational reaction, but then I’m not wj.
Speaking of pessimism, there’s Israel, where a far-right faction is making a mockery of “Never again.”
Speaking of pessimism, there’s Israel, where a far-right faction is making a mockery of “Never again.”
I am baffled by the notion that there is no level of this that will ever be achieved that will remove the theatrical desire to have everyone masked. It is a ludicrous conversation. There will NEVER be zero chance of catching or transmitting this virus.
You have, presumably, come across the concept of “herd immunity” — the idea that enough people have been vaccinated to reduce the overall risk of transmission to something minimal. The threshold for herd immunity varies, but the numbers I have seen for covid-19 appear to cluster around 70% vaccinated.
We are currently (as of 23 April 2021) a bit under 30% of the US population fully vaccinated according to the CDC. So we’re making progress, but still have a ways to go before we reach the “back to normal living” level.
I am baffled by the notion that there is no level of this that will ever be achieved that will remove the theatrical desire to have everyone masked. It is a ludicrous conversation. There will NEVER be zero chance of catching or transmitting this virus.
You have, presumably, come across the concept of “herd immunity” — the idea that enough people have been vaccinated to reduce the overall risk of transmission to something minimal. The threshold for herd immunity varies, but the numbers I have seen for covid-19 appear to cluster around 70% vaccinated.
We are currently (as of 23 April 2021) a bit under 30% of the US population fully vaccinated according to the CDC. So we’re making progress, but still have a ways to go before we reach the “back to normal living” level.
Over on Balloon Juice, there was this excellent exchange:
“Cases go down, things open up, cases go up.”
“It’s exactly those predator-prey population curves you learn about in high school biology, with careless humans as the prey.”
That insight struck me almost speechless.
We are a prey species; the virus is the predator. By ignoring basic, almost effortless, precautions, we are mimicking the predator/pray curve.
With, it must be said, the caveat that the most careless prey animals aren’t necessarily the ones who get eaten by the predator – often, it’s their friends, families, and co-workers.
Over on Balloon Juice, there was this excellent exchange:
“Cases go down, things open up, cases go up.”
“It’s exactly those predator-prey population curves you learn about in high school biology, with careless humans as the prey.”
That insight struck me almost speechless.
We are a prey species; the virus is the predator. By ignoring basic, almost effortless, precautions, we are mimicking the predator/pray curve.
With, it must be said, the caveat that the most careless prey animals aren’t necessarily the ones who get eaten by the predator – often, it’s their friends, families, and co-workers.
Dammit: that should be predator/prey curve, not predator/pray.
Grrr.
Dammit: that should be predator/prey curve, not predator/pray.
Grrr.
Here is a good example, having nothing to do with post vaccination behavior. From MIT
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/23/mit-researchers-say-youre-no-safer-from-covid-indoors-at-6-feet-or-60-feet-in-new-study.html
Lots of peer reviewed information.
Here is a good example, having nothing to do with post vaccination behavior. From MIT
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/23/mit-researchers-say-youre-no-safer-from-covid-indoors-at-6-feet-or-60-feet-in-new-study.html
Lots of peer reviewed information.
The one true thing that can be said is that just about everyone, from mid-March last year through today, has gotten at least part of it wrong when it comes to CoVID. A certain governor was all the rage way back when, an example for us all and now it seems the data were cooked, the directives ridiculous and he’s a masher to boot. Now, that unhappy ending is pretty much memory-holed.
The decision to pull J&J was very state-like, very authoritarian and very stupid.
The jury is out on Texas and Florida (and any other states following that general model). Abbot and DiSantis may be prescient or idiots. Time will tell.
For those whose bent is more open to government guidance, particularly if the gov’t aligns with their personal leanings, Fauci and the CDC are pretty much the gold standard. Those who do not like gov’t at all, regardless of who is running the show, tend to disregard any and everything they are told and CoVID is a globalist plot to impose socialism.
For those who are introverts and stay-at-homes, shelter in place is no great imposition. For most of the rest of us, after a while, it gets pretty damn oppressive and not workable after a month or two.
The latter consists of a ton of different slices of the population. The one I’ve been able to observe, basically our extended circle of friends and acquaintances + our regular work/play/shop venues, did and does what gov’t can’t do: make granular observations over time, perform nuanced risk assessment and determine rational trade off’s on a micro level. One-size almost never fits all.
On March 11, 2020, I relocated to our final retirement destination where I had previously set up an office for remote work in view of our hurricane issues. That weekend, the wife, our daughter, son-in-law and two grandkids, came up. On March 15th, we shut down our office and sent everyone home with their work stations, supplies, etc, which again, as a result of our hurricane experience, was a bit of infrastructure my partner and I paid for so that we could maintain our operation in the event of another catastrophe.
For the first month or so, we stayed in, pretty much. So did everyone else. However, it soon became apparent that no one in our neighborhood was getting sick. Everyone wore masks and gloves to go shopping and otherwise, stayed home–about 200 families live in this neighborhood.
So people began gathering outside, maintaining social distancing and then golf started back up and, over time, people became less observant in their interactions as long as they were in the neighborhood. As good luck would have it, there are several doctors, at least one microbiologist (my wife) and others with a scientific appreciation for disease and how it spreads. By late May, those who remained in-neighborhood began gathering indoors, no masks, no social distancing. And, no disease to this day.
Two couples who mostly stayed in-neighborhood got CoVID, one couple either on a plane or at the airport and the other at a funeral. All were over 65 and three had co-morbidities. They quarantined for 2 weeks and went back into circulation, with three being virtually symptom free and one having a tough time for over a week (but did not require hospitalization). Again, no illness.
Last fall, the neighborhood club reopened for meal service and with minimal mask wearing, it has been very active and, again, no illness.
We reopened our office on a voluntary basis on Feb 1, 2021. No illness. We reopened officially on April 1. No illness so far.
By early fall, my wife and I were regularly dining out (eating outside), going to the store, going to golf courses and seeing friends and family who we knew were taking reasonable measures when in enclosed public areas.
That is, we all wear masks indoors in public venues and we wash our hands a lot. This along with limiting social contact to people who behave similarly has been successful so far. I don’t declare it to be a slam dunk winner because, like I said, pretty much everyone has gotten at least part of it wrong on this topic.
I’m content, as are those who have much more specialized knowledge than me and who I depend on for input, that outdoors and no mask is safe. Nothing is perfect, so let’s call it “reasonably” safe.
Likewise, with known friends who take similar precautions, the benefits of interaction outweigh the cost of self-isolation.
Wearing a mask in public, indoor venues makes sense, in addition to the foregoing, because it is a kindness to others. It is polite. It is good manners. It is no one’s place to say that others who take CoVID seriously are paranoid and, therefore deserve no consideration. I find masks mildly to moderately uncomfortable. I’d much rather not wear a mask. I also like raw onions; but I don’t eat them and then ride an elevator and engage others in conversation or bring people into my somewhat cramped office for a long discussion. If wearing a mask makes others feel better *indoors*, then that’s a fair compromise.
BTW, despite the lack of a mask mandate in TX, masks are far more the exception than the rule in urban areas.
The problem with our experience is that I doubt it travels well. I doubt it’s broader application, and for a number of reasons.
Like it or not, most people half-listen to what they are told. The problem with getting it wrong, the problem with lauding certain people to the skies and then watching them fall ingloriously, the problem with politicizing every single damn thing is that, after a while, credibility is stretched a bit thin and people listen even less.
The problem is compounded when a crap ton of young people get CoVID and are either asymptomatic or have mild symptoms like every other virus they’ve ever had, and they are wondering what is the big deal.
Anyone who wants to can conjure up as many worst case scenarios as they like. Over time, as these fail to materialize, the story of Chicken Little becomes reality. People quit listening all together. Raise your voice, scold even more stridently and watch the push back.
For better or for worse, people are making their own risk-assessments and deciding what they can live with. If it turns out that FL and TX got it right and NY and CA did not–even if that is the general perception–2022 and 2024 will be interesting.
The one true thing that can be said is that just about everyone, from mid-March last year through today, has gotten at least part of it wrong when it comes to CoVID. A certain governor was all the rage way back when, an example for us all and now it seems the data were cooked, the directives ridiculous and he’s a masher to boot. Now, that unhappy ending is pretty much memory-holed.
The decision to pull J&J was very state-like, very authoritarian and very stupid.
The jury is out on Texas and Florida (and any other states following that general model). Abbot and DiSantis may be prescient or idiots. Time will tell.
For those whose bent is more open to government guidance, particularly if the gov’t aligns with their personal leanings, Fauci and the CDC are pretty much the gold standard. Those who do not like gov’t at all, regardless of who is running the show, tend to disregard any and everything they are told and CoVID is a globalist plot to impose socialism.
For those who are introverts and stay-at-homes, shelter in place is no great imposition. For most of the rest of us, after a while, it gets pretty damn oppressive and not workable after a month or two.
The latter consists of a ton of different slices of the population. The one I’ve been able to observe, basically our extended circle of friends and acquaintances + our regular work/play/shop venues, did and does what gov’t can’t do: make granular observations over time, perform nuanced risk assessment and determine rational trade off’s on a micro level. One-size almost never fits all.
On March 11, 2020, I relocated to our final retirement destination where I had previously set up an office for remote work in view of our hurricane issues. That weekend, the wife, our daughter, son-in-law and two grandkids, came up. On March 15th, we shut down our office and sent everyone home with their work stations, supplies, etc, which again, as a result of our hurricane experience, was a bit of infrastructure my partner and I paid for so that we could maintain our operation in the event of another catastrophe.
For the first month or so, we stayed in, pretty much. So did everyone else. However, it soon became apparent that no one in our neighborhood was getting sick. Everyone wore masks and gloves to go shopping and otherwise, stayed home–about 200 families live in this neighborhood.
So people began gathering outside, maintaining social distancing and then golf started back up and, over time, people became less observant in their interactions as long as they were in the neighborhood. As good luck would have it, there are several doctors, at least one microbiologist (my wife) and others with a scientific appreciation for disease and how it spreads. By late May, those who remained in-neighborhood began gathering indoors, no masks, no social distancing. And, no disease to this day.
Two couples who mostly stayed in-neighborhood got CoVID, one couple either on a plane or at the airport and the other at a funeral. All were over 65 and three had co-morbidities. They quarantined for 2 weeks and went back into circulation, with three being virtually symptom free and one having a tough time for over a week (but did not require hospitalization). Again, no illness.
Last fall, the neighborhood club reopened for meal service and with minimal mask wearing, it has been very active and, again, no illness.
We reopened our office on a voluntary basis on Feb 1, 2021. No illness. We reopened officially on April 1. No illness so far.
By early fall, my wife and I were regularly dining out (eating outside), going to the store, going to golf courses and seeing friends and family who we knew were taking reasonable measures when in enclosed public areas.
That is, we all wear masks indoors in public venues and we wash our hands a lot. This along with limiting social contact to people who behave similarly has been successful so far. I don’t declare it to be a slam dunk winner because, like I said, pretty much everyone has gotten at least part of it wrong on this topic.
I’m content, as are those who have much more specialized knowledge than me and who I depend on for input, that outdoors and no mask is safe. Nothing is perfect, so let’s call it “reasonably” safe.
Likewise, with known friends who take similar precautions, the benefits of interaction outweigh the cost of self-isolation.
Wearing a mask in public, indoor venues makes sense, in addition to the foregoing, because it is a kindness to others. It is polite. It is good manners. It is no one’s place to say that others who take CoVID seriously are paranoid and, therefore deserve no consideration. I find masks mildly to moderately uncomfortable. I’d much rather not wear a mask. I also like raw onions; but I don’t eat them and then ride an elevator and engage others in conversation or bring people into my somewhat cramped office for a long discussion. If wearing a mask makes others feel better *indoors*, then that’s a fair compromise.
BTW, despite the lack of a mask mandate in TX, masks are far more the exception than the rule in urban areas.
The problem with our experience is that I doubt it travels well. I doubt it’s broader application, and for a number of reasons.
Like it or not, most people half-listen to what they are told. The problem with getting it wrong, the problem with lauding certain people to the skies and then watching them fall ingloriously, the problem with politicizing every single damn thing is that, after a while, credibility is stretched a bit thin and people listen even less.
The problem is compounded when a crap ton of young people get CoVID and are either asymptomatic or have mild symptoms like every other virus they’ve ever had, and they are wondering what is the big deal.
Anyone who wants to can conjure up as many worst case scenarios as they like. Over time, as these fail to materialize, the story of Chicken Little becomes reality. People quit listening all together. Raise your voice, scold even more stridently and watch the push back.
For better or for worse, people are making their own risk-assessments and deciding what they can live with. If it turns out that FL and TX got it right and NY and CA did not–even if that is the general perception–2022 and 2024 will be interesting.
There are two general approaches for thinking about new studies that have results that go against the consensus.
One is to look at the results, decide that the consensus is incorrect, and treat the current result as something to be acted upon.
The other is to note that there may be something worth probing more deeply in order to get a better picture of how things work in case the consensus missed something important, and proceed as if we don’t yet know the answer, adjusting as warranted as the understanding firms up.
The second of these approaches is, literally, the conservative approach. And yet the self-identified “conservatives” seem to favor the first, mostly because the thing they seem most to want to conserve is their own preferred narrative of the world.
My anti-vax relatives are highly attuned to the presence of these sorts of contradictory studies because they fit the curve in a way that confirms their own biases and paradigms. Their “research” consists of assembling clusters of such studies to shore up their narratives while ignoring any further studies that reinforce the consensus.
There are two general approaches for thinking about new studies that have results that go against the consensus.
One is to look at the results, decide that the consensus is incorrect, and treat the current result as something to be acted upon.
The other is to note that there may be something worth probing more deeply in order to get a better picture of how things work in case the consensus missed something important, and proceed as if we don’t yet know the answer, adjusting as warranted as the understanding firms up.
The second of these approaches is, literally, the conservative approach. And yet the self-identified “conservatives” seem to favor the first, mostly because the thing they seem most to want to conserve is their own preferred narrative of the world.
My anti-vax relatives are highly attuned to the presence of these sorts of contradictory studies because they fit the curve in a way that confirms their own biases and paradigms. Their “research” consists of assembling clusters of such studies to shore up their narratives while ignoring any further studies that reinforce the consensus.
I suggest reading the MIT study, not the article about the study. From the MIT abstract:
We here build on models of airborne disease transmission in order to derive an indoor safety guideline that would impose an upper bound on the “cumulative exposure time,” the product of the number of occupants and their time in an enclosed space. We demonstrate how this bound depends on the rates of ventilation and air filtration, dimensions of the room, breathing rate, respiratory activity and face mask use of its occupants, and infectiousness of the respiratory aerosols.
My early take-ways:
1. Masks are effective and saying otherwise is not supported by the article;
2. Size of room, occupancy, time of occupancy, air flow and so on seem like common sense metrics that someone, i.e. the CDC and thousands of others, should have tumbled to months ago.
3. We have a long way to go before “science” becomes reliable.
PS, I wrote a really long comment that I think must have gone into a spam trap. Could someone look and see if that is the case? Thanks.
I suggest reading the MIT study, not the article about the study. From the MIT abstract:
We here build on models of airborne disease transmission in order to derive an indoor safety guideline that would impose an upper bound on the “cumulative exposure time,” the product of the number of occupants and their time in an enclosed space. We demonstrate how this bound depends on the rates of ventilation and air filtration, dimensions of the room, breathing rate, respiratory activity and face mask use of its occupants, and infectiousness of the respiratory aerosols.
My early take-ways:
1. Masks are effective and saying otherwise is not supported by the article;
2. Size of room, occupancy, time of occupancy, air flow and so on seem like common sense metrics that someone, i.e. the CDC and thousands of others, should have tumbled to months ago.
3. We have a long way to go before “science” becomes reliable.
PS, I wrote a really long comment that I think must have gone into a spam trap. Could someone look and see if that is the case? Thanks.
Brilliant, Marty. Did you read the linked journal article? Do you think it says what the clickbait headline sums it up as saying? Also, any epidemiologists among the authors? Doctors? Contagious disease specialists?
I thought not.
All the bold is mine.
There’s this at the beginning:
Also toward the end:
Then there’s this, their “simple guideline”:
I’m sure that’s far more useful to the general public than what the CDC has been putting out. /s
[I see that in the time I’ve spent on this comment, the thread has been moving along. I’m out now. Happy Saturday.]
Brilliant, Marty. Did you read the linked journal article? Do you think it says what the clickbait headline sums it up as saying? Also, any epidemiologists among the authors? Doctors? Contagious disease specialists?
I thought not.
All the bold is mine.
There’s this at the beginning:
Also toward the end:
Then there’s this, their “simple guideline”:
I’m sure that’s far more useful to the general public than what the CDC has been putting out. /s
[I see that in the time I’ve spent on this comment, the thread has been moving along. I’m out now. Happy Saturday.]
Their “research” consists of assembling clusters of such studies to shore up their narratives while ignoring any further studies that reinforce the consensus.
nothing is more important than being opposed to liberals.
it’s their virtue signal. and it’s going to kill this country.
Their “research” consists of assembling clusters of such studies to shore up their narratives while ignoring any further studies that reinforce the consensus.
nothing is more important than being opposed to liberals.
it’s their virtue signal. and it’s going to kill this country.
Interesting contrast in outlooks between McKinney
and Marty.
Interesting contrast in outlooks between McKinney
and Marty.
Anyone who wants to can conjure up as many worst case scenarios as they like.
there will be 600,000 Americans dead before the end of May.
the end is still a long ways out.
sucks that the GOP decided the best way to handle it was to politicize it, demonize those who took it seriously, and wear belligerent ignorance as a badge of honor. but here we are.
Anyone who wants to can conjure up as many worst case scenarios as they like.
there will be 600,000 Americans dead before the end of May.
the end is still a long ways out.
sucks that the GOP decided the best way to handle it was to politicize it, demonize those who took it seriously, and wear belligerent ignorance as a badge of honor. but here we are.
I remain baffled. I understand to some extent many people’s dislike of being told what to do by the government. I do not understand why that antipathy should translate to antisocial behaviour, whatever the government thinks of it.
Wearing a mask in public, indoor venues makes sense, in addition to the foregoing, because it is a kindness to others. It is polite. It is good manners.
This.
I remain baffled. I understand to some extent many people’s dislike of being told what to do by the government. I do not understand why that antipathy should translate to antisocial behaviour, whatever the government thinks of it.
Wearing a mask in public, indoor venues makes sense, in addition to the foregoing, because it is a kindness to others. It is polite. It is good manners.
This.
Size of room, occupancy, time of occupancy, air flow and so on seem like common sense metrics that someone, i.e. the CDC and thousands of others, should have tumbled to months ago.
I can’t really prove this one way or the other, but I’m going to go out on a limb and say that the epidemiologists at the CDC are aware of how factors like room size, occupancy, air flow, etc effect the likelihood of transmission.
Among other things, they’re tasked with providing general guidance to the public in what behaviors are safe and which are not. I suppose they could have provided guidance like ‘inquire about how many times per hour the air in the room is exchanged’, or ‘bring a tape measure so you can compute the total volume of the airspace in the room and divide by the number of people there’.
Most likely, it was simpler to just say ‘if you are in an enclosed space, wear a mask and stay 6 feet away from each other’.
One size doesn’t fit all, that’s true. But some basic guidance that effectively addresses the vast majority of situations is more likely to be helpful than expecting people to evaluate the HVAC infrastructure before they enter a room.
We have a long way to go before “science” becomes reliable.
Compared to what?
Seriously, if you don’t want to wear a mask, do whatever the hell you like. God knows you will not be alone.
But net/net, the more folks ‘make their own decisions’ about this stuff, the longer this is going to go on.
Covid is the leading cause of death in the US right now. #1. More than cancer, more than heart disease. The CDC is asking us all to help out by wearing a freaking mask when we are in enclosed public spaces, or in outdoor places if it’s crowded.
It is not a big ask. If it makes you feel better, pretend it’s Halloween and it’s part of your costume.
This is why we can’t have nice things.
SMFH
My thought about Janie’s original post is that she and I and all the other boomers here were raised by people who had lived through the Depression and WWII and who had a sense of basic civic responsibility beaten into them by decades of war and privation. They lived with rationing, and scarcity, and sacrifice, and their values were formed by that.
All of us lazy-ass generations who followed think the world owes us a box of chocolates and a dozen roses, delivered at our door, daily.
I think our folks, as messed up as they and their world was in many ways, were kind of anomaly. The kinds of anti-social behavior we’ve had to learn to live with is, I think, more the norm for humans. Especially privileged humans, which pretty much everyone reading this is.
“People who are at ease mock those in trouble. They give a push to people who are stumbling.” Job 12:5
Glad you all are safe and well. Some would respond with gratitude and with a concern for those still at risk. And, some not.
Size of room, occupancy, time of occupancy, air flow and so on seem like common sense metrics that someone, i.e. the CDC and thousands of others, should have tumbled to months ago.
I can’t really prove this one way or the other, but I’m going to go out on a limb and say that the epidemiologists at the CDC are aware of how factors like room size, occupancy, air flow, etc effect the likelihood of transmission.
Among other things, they’re tasked with providing general guidance to the public in what behaviors are safe and which are not. I suppose they could have provided guidance like ‘inquire about how many times per hour the air in the room is exchanged’, or ‘bring a tape measure so you can compute the total volume of the airspace in the room and divide by the number of people there’.
Most likely, it was simpler to just say ‘if you are in an enclosed space, wear a mask and stay 6 feet away from each other’.
One size doesn’t fit all, that’s true. But some basic guidance that effectively addresses the vast majority of situations is more likely to be helpful than expecting people to evaluate the HVAC infrastructure before they enter a room.
We have a long way to go before “science” becomes reliable.
Compared to what?
Seriously, if you don’t want to wear a mask, do whatever the hell you like. God knows you will not be alone.
But net/net, the more folks ‘make their own decisions’ about this stuff, the longer this is going to go on.
Covid is the leading cause of death in the US right now. #1. More than cancer, more than heart disease. The CDC is asking us all to help out by wearing a freaking mask when we are in enclosed public spaces, or in outdoor places if it’s crowded.
It is not a big ask. If it makes you feel better, pretend it’s Halloween and it’s part of your costume.
This is why we can’t have nice things.
SMFH
My thought about Janie’s original post is that she and I and all the other boomers here were raised by people who had lived through the Depression and WWII and who had a sense of basic civic responsibility beaten into them by decades of war and privation. They lived with rationing, and scarcity, and sacrifice, and their values were formed by that.
All of us lazy-ass generations who followed think the world owes us a box of chocolates and a dozen roses, delivered at our door, daily.
I think our folks, as messed up as they and their world was in many ways, were kind of anomaly. The kinds of anti-social behavior we’ve had to learn to live with is, I think, more the norm for humans. Especially privileged humans, which pretty much everyone reading this is.
“People who are at ease mock those in trouble. They give a push to people who are stumbling.” Job 12:5
Glad you all are safe and well. Some would respond with gratitude and with a concern for those still at risk. And, some not.
BTW, despite the lack of a mask mandate in TX, masks are far more the exception than the rule in urban areas.
Shouldn’t this say “because of” rather than “despite”? Or have I completely misunderstood the term “mask mandate”?
Wearing a mask in public, indoor venues makes sense, in addition to the foregoing, because it is a kindness to others. It is polite. It is good manners.
Seconded, thirded, or wherever we’ve now reached.
BTW, despite the lack of a mask mandate in TX, masks are far more the exception than the rule in urban areas.
Shouldn’t this say “because of” rather than “despite”? Or have I completely misunderstood the term “mask mandate”?
Wearing a mask in public, indoor venues makes sense, in addition to the foregoing, because it is a kindness to others. It is polite. It is good manners.
Seconded, thirded, or wherever we’ve now reached.
Perhaps the intending meaning was:
BTW, despite the lack of a mask mandate in TX, masks are far more the rule than the exception in urban areas.
Until the other day in a convenience store, I hadn’t seen anyone in a public space without a mask in almost a year.
I do see some people outside wearing masks. But almost all of them are on the clock and likely following employer mandates.
Perhaps the intending meaning was:
BTW, despite the lack of a mask mandate in TX, masks are far more the rule than the exception in urban areas.
Until the other day in a convenience store, I hadn’t seen anyone in a public space without a mask in almost a year.
I do see some people outside wearing masks. But almost all of them are on the clock and likely following employer mandates.
Charles, correct. Good catch.
Charles, correct. Good catch.
“Wearing a mask in public, indoor venues makes sense, in addition to the foregoing, because it is a kindness to others. It is polite. It is good manners.”
Thus in those places that require/ask people to wear masks I do. There is no mask mandate where I live, so individual businesses are at liberty to require or not require masks.
It’s curious that no one has asked where they are/aren’t. We have 100% occupancy in restaurants (and bars), most restaurants request you wear a mask until you get to a table. I do this and I am mostly the only one. And I recognize how stupid it is.
Most bars don’t even try. So I don’t.
Pretty much any big grocery store, big box store etc. Requires them and most everyone complies. Smaller places usually ask but don’t insist but I wear one any time the sign is on the door.
There are people here who refuse to ever wear a mask. I disagree with that, but they are a small minority.
There were some in MA also.
The corner packy seems to always have people in it without masks here, as it started to be there before I left.
“Wearing a mask in public, indoor venues makes sense, in addition to the foregoing, because it is a kindness to others. It is polite. It is good manners.”
Thus in those places that require/ask people to wear masks I do. There is no mask mandate where I live, so individual businesses are at liberty to require or not require masks.
It’s curious that no one has asked where they are/aren’t. We have 100% occupancy in restaurants (and bars), most restaurants request you wear a mask until you get to a table. I do this and I am mostly the only one. And I recognize how stupid it is.
Most bars don’t even try. So I don’t.
Pretty much any big grocery store, big box store etc. Requires them and most everyone complies. Smaller places usually ask but don’t insist but I wear one any time the sign is on the door.
There are people here who refuse to ever wear a mask. I disagree with that, but they are a small minority.
There were some in MA also.
The corner packy seems to always have people in it without masks here, as it started to be there before I left.
Marty, I think most of us think it’s a kindness, polite and good manners etc to wear a mask in public indoors even when you are NOT required or asked. To NOT do so when required or asked is much worse than unkind, impolite and bad manners. The people who refuse ever to wear a mask are in yet a completely different category.
Marty, I think most of us think it’s a kindness, polite and good manners etc to wear a mask in public indoors even when you are NOT required or asked. To NOT do so when required or asked is much worse than unkind, impolite and bad manners. The people who refuse ever to wear a mask are in yet a completely different category.
Raise your voice, scold even more stridently and watch the push back.
Raise your voice, scold even more stridently and watch the push back.
There were some in MA also.
FWIW, I don’t think anybody here is asserting that masking compliance in MA is any better than it is in FL. I’m sure not.
We have a stronger mandate, so probably more people wear masks. And, lots of folks don’t.
There were some in MA also.
FWIW, I don’t think anybody here is asserting that masking compliance in MA is any better than it is in FL. I’m sure not.
We have a stronger mandate, so probably more people wear masks. And, lots of folks don’t.
Also, does anyone in FL look askance at you when say ‘packy?
🙂
Also, does anyone in FL look askance at you when say ‘packy?
🙂
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/24/us/politics/texas-republicans-voting.html
Let the hand waving begin!
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/24/us/politics/texas-republicans-voting.html
Let the hand waving begin!
Janie, I loved your ad for McKinney Legal Services, especially
Particular expertise in Scolding People for Scolding!
which made me laugh a lot.
Janie, I loved your ad for McKinney Legal Services, especially
Particular expertise in Scolding People for Scolding!
which made me laugh a lot.
I put “the year dot” in there just for you Brits. 😉
I put “the year dot” in there just for you Brits. 😉
@cleek — what does it remind you of, this business of weighting votes to make land more important than people?
Of course, I wouldn’t elevate it to a principle, because these people have no principles except “go with whatever’s expedient.”
@cleek — what does it remind you of, this business of weighting votes to make land more important than people?
Of course, I wouldn’t elevate it to a principle, because these people have no principles except “go with whatever’s expedient.”
GftNC: and of course, I left out any reference to the dog whistle that is “stridency.” Satire is so nearly dead that only so much of it can be re-animated in one blog comment.
GftNC: and of course, I left out any reference to the dog whistle that is “stridency.” Satire is so nearly dead that only so much of it can be re-animated in one blog comment.
Ah yes, of course. Stridency is a close cousin of overwroughtness, I do believe.
(p.s. I love the way “overwrought” has become the word du jour in these parts. It’s made me feel almost affectionate towards it!)
Ah yes, of course. Stridency is a close cousin of overwroughtness, I do believe.
(p.s. I love the way “overwrought” has become the word du jour in these parts. It’s made me feel almost affectionate towards it!)
Yeah russell, I wouldn’t use it here. GftNC, it wouldn’t be the least bit polite to walk in the bar on the corner with my mask on. It wouldn’t be kind or good manners. There would be 40 or 50 people wondering if I was sick. None of them would have masks on.
Yeah russell, I wouldn’t use it here. GftNC, it wouldn’t be the least bit polite to walk in the bar on the corner with my mask on. It wouldn’t be kind or good manners. There would be 40 or 50 people wondering if I was sick. None of them would have masks on.
Today only. Special sale. Some links:
Does this map tell you anything?
Nothing to see here folks, move along.
Today only. Special sale. Some links:
Does this map tell you anything?
Nothing to see here folks, move along.
Beyond the well mixed room.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbueCxKUUTo
Masks seem like a useful first line of defense.
Btw, what is this software?
Beyond the well mixed room.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbueCxKUUTo
Masks seem like a useful first line of defense.
Btw, what is this software?
Btw, what is this software?
What software are you asking about?
Btw, what is this software?
What software are you asking about?
In the youtube video, he writes on a transparent board and the writing is reversed/corrected so that it isn’t a mirror image! Is there some sort of electronic white board? But how do they film him? Please tell me that he’s really in Garfield pajamas at his house!!!
In the youtube video, he writes on a transparent board and the writing is reversed/corrected so that it isn’t a mirror image! Is there some sort of electronic white board? But how do they film him? Please tell me that he’s really in Garfield pajamas at his house!!!
I dunno, I didn’t watch that far into it yet. But it sounds like those amazing hidden blackboards I was dazzled by on the first day of 8.01 (freshman physics), brought up to date for the brave new world fifty years later. 😉
I dunno, I didn’t watch that far into it yet. But it sounds like those amazing hidden blackboards I was dazzled by on the first day of 8.01 (freshman physics), brought up to date for the brave new world fifty years later. 😉
Does this map tell you anything?
It suggests to me (if not quite tells) that Alabama’s election of Senator Jones may not have been as anomalous as I had thought. Compared to neighboring states, Alabama’s counties look downright anchored to reality.
Does this map tell you anything?
It suggests to me (if not quite tells) that Alabama’s election of Senator Jones may not have been as anomalous as I had thought. Compared to neighboring states, Alabama’s counties look downright anchored to reality.
GftNC, it wouldn’t be the least bit polite to walk in the bar on the corner with my mask on. It wouldn’t be kind or good manners. There would be 40 or 50 people wondering if I was sick.
This is the standard in Japan and would definitely be good manners.
https://www.japanesestudies.org.uk/ejcjs/vol14/iss2/horii.html
Yes it is a ritual, but like exercising, washing your hands and brushing your teeth, having rituals is not really a bad thing.
I also like the mask cause I do embouchure exercises to get in shape to play Eroica this year and no one is the wiser…
GftNC, it wouldn’t be the least bit polite to walk in the bar on the corner with my mask on. It wouldn’t be kind or good manners. There would be 40 or 50 people wondering if I was sick.
This is the standard in Japan and would definitely be good manners.
https://www.japanesestudies.org.uk/ejcjs/vol14/iss2/horii.html
Yes it is a ritual, but like exercising, washing your hands and brushing your teeth, having rituals is not really a bad thing.
I also like the mask cause I do embouchure exercises to get in shape to play Eroica this year and no one is the wiser…
Does this map tell you anything?
Those blue zones up in northeast AZ and northwest NM are basically reservations.
Unsurprising, to me anyway, that those folks might be skeptical of the government.
If we want to have some fun with numbers, the vaxes are about 95% effective. Which means 1 in 20 people who are vaccinated can slip through the cracks.
We’ve vaxed about 84 million people so far. That means about 4.2 million *vaccinated* people may not be immune.
If we were talking 5% out of the whole population, this conversation would be moot. Unfortunately, we’re not, and we won’t be for some time, because some folks don’t have the sense that god gave a radish.
Also of note – the measles vax is 97% effective. It came out in 1963. Measles was declared to be eradicated in the US in 2000. This stuff takes time. And all of it would go much more quickly if folks would simply get with the damned program.
Y’all do what you want. Play golf, go hang at your local, have a ball. I’m staying away from people who don’t wear masks in public places, at least indoors or crowded outdoor places. I’m happy to change that when somebody who actually has a freaking epidemiological clue gives the high sign.
Marty and McK, that ain’t either of you.
Got my second dose of Pfizer last night, it has been kicking my @ss all day. Tomorrow should be better. Have a good night.
Does this map tell you anything?
Those blue zones up in northeast AZ and northwest NM are basically reservations.
Unsurprising, to me anyway, that those folks might be skeptical of the government.
If we want to have some fun with numbers, the vaxes are about 95% effective. Which means 1 in 20 people who are vaccinated can slip through the cracks.
We’ve vaxed about 84 million people so far. That means about 4.2 million *vaccinated* people may not be immune.
If we were talking 5% out of the whole population, this conversation would be moot. Unfortunately, we’re not, and we won’t be for some time, because some folks don’t have the sense that god gave a radish.
Also of note – the measles vax is 97% effective. It came out in 1963. Measles was declared to be eradicated in the US in 2000. This stuff takes time. And all of it would go much more quickly if folks would simply get with the damned program.
Y’all do what you want. Play golf, go hang at your local, have a ball. I’m staying away from people who don’t wear masks in public places, at least indoors or crowded outdoor places. I’m happy to change that when somebody who actually has a freaking epidemiological clue gives the high sign.
Marty and McK, that ain’t either of you.
Got my second dose of Pfizer last night, it has been kicking my @ss all day. Tomorrow should be better. Have a good night.
Measles was declared to be eradicated in the US in 2000.
Measles made a bit of a comeback in 2018-19, with anti-vaxxers letting their kids come down with the disease and thereby creating mini-epidemics of infection.
I’m not sure how statistically significant any of those were – and it does seem that the lockdown in 2020 meant no one got measles or shared them with their friends, family and schools.
Measles was declared to be eradicated in the US in 2000.
Measles made a bit of a comeback in 2018-19, with anti-vaxxers letting their kids come down with the disease and thereby creating mini-epidemics of infection.
I’m not sure how statistically significant any of those were – and it does seem that the lockdown in 2020 meant no one got measles or shared them with their friends, family and schools.
Pedant alert…..
If we want to have some fun with numbers, the vaxes are about 95% effective. Which means 1 in 20 people who are vaccinated can slip through the cracks.
It doesn’t exactly mean that. Most of the articles that attempt to explain what it does mean aren’t (to me) very clear, but this one was pretty good.
Your basic argument holds regardless.
If your experience with 2nd Pfizer is like mine, you’ll be fine tomorrow. Fingers crossed!
Pedant alert…..
If we want to have some fun with numbers, the vaxes are about 95% effective. Which means 1 in 20 people who are vaccinated can slip through the cracks.
It doesn’t exactly mean that. Most of the articles that attempt to explain what it does mean aren’t (to me) very clear, but this one was pretty good.
Your basic argument holds regardless.
If your experience with 2nd Pfizer is like mine, you’ll be fine tomorrow. Fingers crossed!
More about that article
https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/1385707216280375298?s=21&fbclid=IwAR2kz0SYEqlCiBsui_HLhp2hAqHMKglZdvd_80tH3wPd0hdvJCXbDg2Vsik
This is why it is important to provide links, so that one can see the arguments being made (or mis-made) and discuss them.
More about that article
https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/1385707216280375298?s=21&fbclid=IwAR2kz0SYEqlCiBsui_HLhp2hAqHMKglZdvd_80tH3wPd0hdvJCXbDg2Vsik
This is why it is important to provide links, so that one can see the arguments being made (or mis-made) and discuss them.
Regarding outdoor mask usage, I recommend this thread by Muge Cevic who’s a renowned expert in the field – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCge_%C3%87evik
https://twitter.com/mugecevik/status/1348771251758784517
Regarding outdoor mask usage, I recommend this thread by Muge Cevic who’s a renowned expert in the field – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCge_%C3%87evik
https://twitter.com/mugecevik/status/1348771251758784517
Also of note – the measles vax is 97% effective. It came out in 1963.
Measles is a different beast, though, as although it mutates, it seems incapable of doing so sufficiently to evade the immunity generated by vaccination, even half a century later.
This coronavirus (and others), are probably more like influenza, where we regularly need updated vaccines.
For those interested, there’s a very informative Twitter thread here:
https://twitter.com/jbloom_lab/status/1385664864765444098
Also of note – the measles vax is 97% effective. It came out in 1963.
Measles is a different beast, though, as although it mutates, it seems incapable of doing so sufficiently to evade the immunity generated by vaccination, even half a century later.
This coronavirus (and others), are probably more like influenza, where we regularly need updated vaccines.
For those interested, there’s a very informative Twitter thread here:
https://twitter.com/jbloom_lab/status/1385664864765444098
It doesn’t exactly mean that.
Oops. Yeah, I shouldn’t play with statistics.
Likewise, I’m not an epidemiologist. CDC says keep masking after vax, then I’m gonna do that. Because they actually know what they’re talking about.
We could probably get to herd immunity this year if folks would work the freaking program. Then *everybody* gets to not wear a mask, and nobody has to worry about whether the person not wearing a mask is vaxed or is just an irresponsible jerk.
Won’t that be great?
It’s not that big of an ask, and it helps other people. I am at most mildly inconvenienced, if that. It’s not all about me and what I want to do.
So I wear the freaking mask.
It doesn’t exactly mean that.
Oops. Yeah, I shouldn’t play with statistics.
Likewise, I’m not an epidemiologist. CDC says keep masking after vax, then I’m gonna do that. Because they actually know what they’re talking about.
We could probably get to herd immunity this year if folks would work the freaking program. Then *everybody* gets to not wear a mask, and nobody has to worry about whether the person not wearing a mask is vaxed or is just an irresponsible jerk.
Won’t that be great?
It’s not that big of an ask, and it helps other people. I am at most mildly inconvenienced, if that. It’s not all about me and what I want to do.
So I wear the freaking mask.
GftNC, it wouldn’t be the least bit polite to walk in the bar on the corner with my mask on. It wouldn’t be kind or good manners. There would be 40 or 50 people wondering if I was sick. None of them would have masks on.
Wow, this is pretty shocking. Did you say you were now in Florida? How many of those 40 or 50 would you estimate are so relaxed because (like you) they have been vaccinated, and how many because they are the kinds of people who have refused to wear a mask from the beginning, and think covid is a hoax? I realise you will have to guess, but I would still be interested in your opinion.
If you’re right (in your supposition above) that they would think a mask meant you were sick, I guess it’s clear they are pretty ignorant about the whole thing, which figures.
GftNC, it wouldn’t be the least bit polite to walk in the bar on the corner with my mask on. It wouldn’t be kind or good manners. There would be 40 or 50 people wondering if I was sick. None of them would have masks on.
Wow, this is pretty shocking. Did you say you were now in Florida? How many of those 40 or 50 would you estimate are so relaxed because (like you) they have been vaccinated, and how many because they are the kinds of people who have refused to wear a mask from the beginning, and think covid is a hoax? I realise you will have to guess, but I would still be interested in your opinion.
If you’re right (in your supposition above) that they would think a mask meant you were sick, I guess it’s clear they are pretty ignorant about the whole thing, which figures.
GftNC — I may have mentioned this before, but many years ago I had a friend and colleague who had a bone marrow transplant as treatment for leukemia. She went through utter hell — three months in a bubble and horrible pain and other difficulties, triggering more treatments, because of graft vs host problems.
But then lo and behold, she was well enough to be out in the world again — only she had to wear a mask for a year, until her immune system slowly built itself back up again.
A not insignificant number of people in public were unpleasant to her, because they thought she was sick, and exposing them to something.
Too many people are ignorant (which is in theory curable), stupid, and cruel (which are apparently not).
GftNC — I may have mentioned this before, but many years ago I had a friend and colleague who had a bone marrow transplant as treatment for leukemia. She went through utter hell — three months in a bubble and horrible pain and other difficulties, triggering more treatments, because of graft vs host problems.
But then lo and behold, she was well enough to be out in the world again — only she had to wear a mask for a year, until her immune system slowly built itself back up again.
A not insignificant number of people in public were unpleasant to her, because they thought she was sick, and exposing them to something.
Too many people are ignorant (which is in theory curable), stupid, and cruel (which are apparently not).
i’m starting to like my mask. i feel naked without it. plus, not a single cold since fall of 2019.
i’m starting to like my mask. i feel naked without it. plus, not a single cold since fall of 2019.
A not insignificant number of people in public were unpleasant to her, because they thought she was sick, and exposing them to something.
I was aware of this kind of response in the past, but in my comment to Marty I was really talking about this response in the context of the current pandemic.
Too many people are ignorant (which is in theory curable), stupid, and cruel (which are apparently not).
Very true, unfortunately.
A not insignificant number of people in public were unpleasant to her, because they thought she was sick, and exposing them to something.
I was aware of this kind of response in the past, but in my comment to Marty I was really talking about this response in the context of the current pandemic.
Too many people are ignorant (which is in theory curable), stupid, and cruel (which are apparently not).
Very true, unfortunately.
I go maskless outdoors unless I’m likely to be near someone outside my household. When I walk out of my office building, my mask comes off almost immediately unless I happen to be walking out with one of the few other people who are still coming into the office. It’s not remotely like a crowded downtown environment. There might be one or two people walking by across the street headed to the parking garage nearby.
Even walking past someone on the sidewalk is very, very low risk. The idea that enough virus to infect will get out of one person and into another in the few seconds they are within a few feet of each other outdoors is kind of crazy. It’s a physical process, not magic. But I would either put my mask on or go way out of my way to stay very far from anyone else if only to make another feel safe. There is really no such thing as a crowded outdoor environment in my life these days.
I go maskless outdoors unless I’m likely to be near someone outside my household. When I walk out of my office building, my mask comes off almost immediately unless I happen to be walking out with one of the few other people who are still coming into the office. It’s not remotely like a crowded downtown environment. There might be one or two people walking by across the street headed to the parking garage nearby.
Even walking past someone on the sidewalk is very, very low risk. The idea that enough virus to infect will get out of one person and into another in the few seconds they are within a few feet of each other outdoors is kind of crazy. It’s a physical process, not magic. But I would either put my mask on or go way out of my way to stay very far from anyone else if only to make another feel safe. There is really no such thing as a crowded outdoor environment in my life these days.
It’s not that big of an ask, and it helps other people.
Cleek’s Law holds. It matters who’s asking. The people perceived as doing the asking must be thwarted at all costs, even unto the death of the neighbors.
*****
Side note: at BJ they’ve talked now and again about the thin blue line flag, among others. Yesterday I was driving around the back back back roads of central Maine and took a “wrong” turn (i.e. not the one I meant to take, but I don’t generally mind that) down one of those roads where Clickbait/Pence signs are not uncommon even now, and saw a flag with stars on a black field, and black and white stripes, except for one blue stripe (thin blue line), one red, and one green in place of the three bottom black stripes. Apparently the red and green are for firefighters and the military.
Ugly as shit, in more ways than one. And I say that as the daughter of a firefighter and veteran who would have been appalled.
It’s not that big of an ask, and it helps other people.
Cleek’s Law holds. It matters who’s asking. The people perceived as doing the asking must be thwarted at all costs, even unto the death of the neighbors.
*****
Side note: at BJ they’ve talked now and again about the thin blue line flag, among others. Yesterday I was driving around the back back back roads of central Maine and took a “wrong” turn (i.e. not the one I meant to take, but I don’t generally mind that) down one of those roads where Clickbait/Pence signs are not uncommon even now, and saw a flag with stars on a black field, and black and white stripes, except for one blue stripe (thin blue line), one red, and one green in place of the three bottom black stripes. Apparently the red and green are for firefighters and the military.
Ugly as shit, in more ways than one. And I say that as the daughter of a firefighter and veteran who would have been appalled.
When the blue stripe peels off, it reveals a Nazi flag, so I’ve seen.
When the blue stripe peels off, it reveals a Nazi flag, so I’ve seen.
The people perceived as doing the asking must be thwarted at all costs, even unto the death of the neighbors.
Even unto the death of self — see the reports of people who were still insisting that the whole thing was a hoax, even as they died of it. Belief can be powerful.
The people perceived as doing the asking must be thwarted at all costs, even unto the death of the neighbors.
Even unto the death of self — see the reports of people who were still insisting that the whole thing was a hoax, even as they died of it. Belief can be powerful.
Magic whiteboard software = draw on a glass board that’s between you and the camera then horizontal flip the video after you’ve shot it.
Magic whiteboard software = draw on a glass board that’s between you and the camera then horizontal flip the video after you’ve shot it.
WRT the OP, via LGM I come to this. It’s behind the WaPo paywall, for which apologies. If you subscribe or know how to work around it, it’s an interesting read.
For folks who can’t see it, it’s an article about Mary Ann Vecchio, the young woman (15 at the time) in the famous photograph from the Kent State shootings of May 1970. Kent is always evocative chez russell because my wife grew up quite near Kent, went to Kent State, and was there on the day. One of the people killed was a young woman she knew slightly.
It’s an interesting article about Vecchio, and an interesting snapshot of the time. Among other things, the threats and other calumny heaped upon Vecchio, her family, and the guy that took the picture will seem more than familiar.
Everything old is new again. Some things never seem to go away, they just hide under a rock until it’s safe to come out again.
WRT the OP, via LGM I come to this. It’s behind the WaPo paywall, for which apologies. If you subscribe or know how to work around it, it’s an interesting read.
For folks who can’t see it, it’s an article about Mary Ann Vecchio, the young woman (15 at the time) in the famous photograph from the Kent State shootings of May 1970. Kent is always evocative chez russell because my wife grew up quite near Kent, went to Kent State, and was there on the day. One of the people killed was a young woman she knew slightly.
It’s an interesting article about Vecchio, and an interesting snapshot of the time. Among other things, the threats and other calumny heaped upon Vecchio, her family, and the guy that took the picture will seem more than familiar.
Everything old is new again. Some things never seem to go away, they just hide under a rock until it’s safe to come out again.
Some people are unguided missiles just waiting for their social environment to feed them targets to strike.
Some people are unguided missiles just waiting for their social environment to feed them targets to strike.
What I think is the same article has been published in several places, here for example.
What I think is the same article has been published in several places, here for example.
Thanks, russell. That’s a very moving article. I had high school classmates at KSU at that time, and my sister later studied and eventually taught there. There are plaques in the pavement of what is now a parking lot, marking where the four victims died. Very hard to be there, even forty-plus years later (which is the last time I was).
You have repeatedly answered, by implication and differently from me, a question that my son asks now and again. Is it “worse” now than it was then? As our earlier comments indicate: I have casually thought yes, it’s “worse.” This is a reminder: maybe not. Or rather, yet another bonk on the head reminding me that as you say, everything old is new again. “We” never do learn from history, or even if we do, we don’t know what to do about it.
Thanks, russell. That’s a very moving article. I had high school classmates at KSU at that time, and my sister later studied and eventually taught there. There are plaques in the pavement of what is now a parking lot, marking where the four victims died. Very hard to be there, even forty-plus years later (which is the last time I was).
You have repeatedly answered, by implication and differently from me, a question that my son asks now and again. Is it “worse” now than it was then? As our earlier comments indicate: I have casually thought yes, it’s “worse.” This is a reminder: maybe not. Or rather, yet another bonk on the head reminding me that as you say, everything old is new again. “We” never do learn from history, or even if we do, we don’t know what to do about it.
I read that WaPo article a few days ago, and was also struck by the similarities to today (the pilings-on etc). The Kent State killings were an unforgettable event; I was at an impressionable age, and things felt very different after that. It’s one of the things that has never allowed me to feel (like some of my social circles then and now felt/feel – only possible for the white ones of course) that “the authorities” are necessarily on my side.
I read that WaPo article a few days ago, and was also struck by the similarities to today (the pilings-on etc). The Kent State killings were an unforgettable event; I was at an impressionable age, and things felt very different after that. It’s one of the things that has never allowed me to feel (like some of my social circles then and now felt/feel – only possible for the white ones of course) that “the authorities” are necessarily on my side.
Is it “worse” now than it was then?
I do think it’s better now, than then. Mostly because decades of effort have made dent in the law. People can’t *legally* be persecuted or discriminated against, at least as easily, for most human characteristics. “Inclusivity” gets a bad name, but at least more people have a way to exist, as themselves, in public life.
Digging hostility and suspicion out of people’s hearts and minds is harder, takes longer, and likely will never be complete.
Members, don’t get weary.
Is it “worse” now than it was then?
I do think it’s better now, than then. Mostly because decades of effort have made dent in the law. People can’t *legally* be persecuted or discriminated against, at least as easily, for most human characteristics. “Inclusivity” gets a bad name, but at least more people have a way to exist, as themselves, in public life.
Digging hostility and suspicion out of people’s hearts and minds is harder, takes longer, and likely will never be complete.
Members, don’t get weary.
One notable difference at Kent State. It wasn’t the police who fired the shots. It was a bunch of Ohio National Guard troops. That is, not militarized police, but actual military. Military armed only with rifles. As a result, the National Guard, and the whole military, conducted major reviews of how they handled crowd control.
I also seem to remember comments to the effect that the National Guard troops involved were basically the same age as the students who were shot. I wonder how they have come to terms with it, all these years later. And I wonder if the identity of the individual who gave the order to fire has surfaced.
One notable difference at Kent State. It wasn’t the police who fired the shots. It was a bunch of Ohio National Guard troops. That is, not militarized police, but actual military. Military armed only with rifles. As a result, the National Guard, and the whole military, conducted major reviews of how they handled crowd control.
I also seem to remember comments to the effect that the National Guard troops involved were basically the same age as the students who were shot. I wonder how they have come to terms with it, all these years later. And I wonder if the identity of the individual who gave the order to fire has surfaced.
Long time reader first time poster. I’ve always enjoyed reading the posts and comments on this blog, you have a very interesting group of “regulars”. My sentiments lie more with Marty an McKinney. I live in the center of the states, rural, mostly conservative area. I wear a mask when it’s required and try to get along with people. Covid swept thru my family , including my 80 yr old parents and my 105 yr old grandma. We all survived with symptoms and severity pretty much as you would predict. As I’ve talked to people in our area, it became apparent that more people have probably had the bug than have been tested and added to the positive numbers. This is especially true in my youngest kids age group, mid 20’s. Just an unscientific observation, I think in our area herd immunity is very close. I understand some of your opinions that people don’t care enough about their fellow man to where a mask, but there is more to life than just surviving. Be well and please live your life, not just survive.
Long time reader first time poster. I’ve always enjoyed reading the posts and comments on this blog, you have a very interesting group of “regulars”. My sentiments lie more with Marty an McKinney. I live in the center of the states, rural, mostly conservative area. I wear a mask when it’s required and try to get along with people. Covid swept thru my family , including my 80 yr old parents and my 105 yr old grandma. We all survived with symptoms and severity pretty much as you would predict. As I’ve talked to people in our area, it became apparent that more people have probably had the bug than have been tested and added to the positive numbers. This is especially true in my youngest kids age group, mid 20’s. Just an unscientific observation, I think in our area herd immunity is very close. I understand some of your opinions that people don’t care enough about their fellow man to where a mask, but there is more to life than just surviving. Be well and please live your life, not just survive.
Welcome, Ron! We can always use people who have experiences beyond what the regulars can provide.
Welcome, Ron! We can always use people who have experiences beyond what the regulars can provide.
Is it “worse” now than it was then?
It was worse. But in a world before the Internet and social media, most of us felt the impact of events less than we do now.
“We” never do learn from history, or even if we do, we don’t know what to do about it.
What we learn from history is that we don’t learn from history.
Is it “worse” now than it was then?
It was worse. But in a world before the Internet and social media, most of us felt the impact of events less than we do now.
“We” never do learn from history, or even if we do, we don’t know what to do about it.
What we learn from history is that we don’t learn from history.
Looks like, in my area, people are starting to ignore mask requirements. I was just in a convenience store for about five minutes and saw two people without masks in spite of the “masks required” posted on the doors.
Looks like, in my area, people are starting to ignore mask requirements. I was just in a convenience store for about five minutes and saw two people without masks in spite of the “masks required” posted on the doors.
there is more to life than just surviving.
Hi Ron, and welcome. Thank you for chiming in!
I’m not opposed to the idea that there is more to life than just surviving. Our views depart at 2 points, I think:
1. I can legitimately only make choices about risks are tolerable for myself, not others
2. Wearing a mask just doesn’t get in my way all that much. It doesn’t compromise my enjoyment of life.
I’m more than glad your people all came through it.
Don’t be a stranger!
there is more to life than just surviving.
Hi Ron, and welcome. Thank you for chiming in!
I’m not opposed to the idea that there is more to life than just surviving. Our views depart at 2 points, I think:
1. I can legitimately only make choices about risks are tolerable for myself, not others
2. Wearing a mask just doesn’t get in my way all that much. It doesn’t compromise my enjoyment of life.
I’m more than glad your people all came through it.
Don’t be a stranger!
i just got back from the hardware store, and despite the governor’s mandate, and the signs all over the store, one of the employees wasn’t wearing a mask. standing there, helping some old guy pick of a new shower head, not even trying to stay distanced, no mask.
might be the last time i go there.
i just got back from the hardware store, and despite the governor’s mandate, and the signs all over the store, one of the employees wasn’t wearing a mask. standing there, helping some old guy pick of a new shower head, not even trying to stay distanced, no mask.
might be the last time i go there.
Is it “worse” now than it was then?
Well, it was different. And it was remarkably the same in other ways. So it depends on what specific thing you have in mind….
Is it “worse” now than it was then?
Well, it was different. And it was remarkably the same in other ways. So it depends on what specific thing you have in mind….
Welcome Farmer Ron. You write: “but there is more to life than just surviving.”
Well, sure. But do bear in mind that if you die unnecessarily due to a disdain for some rather rudimentary and not all that intrusive measures that constitute sound medical advice in a pandemic, then you are definitely not surviving, and that “more to life” stuff, good as it may well be, is kinda’ sorta’ out of reach.
Could be one of those cart and horse things.
At any rate, welcome. wj needs all the help he can get.
Welcome Farmer Ron. You write: “but there is more to life than just surviving.”
Well, sure. But do bear in mind that if you die unnecessarily due to a disdain for some rather rudimentary and not all that intrusive measures that constitute sound medical advice in a pandemic, then you are definitely not surviving, and that “more to life” stuff, good as it may well be, is kinda’ sorta’ out of reach.
Could be one of those cart and horse things.
At any rate, welcome. wj needs all the help he can get.
might be the last time i go there.
I wiped a frequent stop off my list last summer for this reason.
Plus — the restaurant across the road from me had a sign out front last fall saying that it was the governor who was killing them, not COVID. Not that I ever went there much in the first place — if I’m going to eat out, I like to get away from home, plus I’m also not that big of fan of their food. But it was convenient sometimes.
Quoth the raven….
might be the last time i go there.
I wiped a frequent stop off my list last summer for this reason.
Plus — the restaurant across the road from me had a sign out front last fall saying that it was the governor who was killing them, not COVID. Not that I ever went there much in the first place — if I’m going to eat out, I like to get away from home, plus I’m also not that big of fan of their food. But it was convenient sometimes.
Quoth the raven….
Despite being home to many lovely people I know, much of Michigan has yet to come to terms with the Great Migration. The spirit of McVeigh lives on.
https://www.metrotimes.com/detroit/welcome-to-maga-country-white-angst-keeps-trumpism-alive-in-macomb-county/Content?oid=26946615
As contingent faculty in an expensive state, we always keep an eye on places to land should our jobs turn unsustainable. I love the natural environment of Upper Michigan, but the social environment scares the shit out of me. Minnesota has its own problems it’s dealing with, but it seems a bit less far down the Q-and-white-identity rabbit hole.
Despite being home to many lovely people I know, much of Michigan has yet to come to terms with the Great Migration. The spirit of McVeigh lives on.
https://www.metrotimes.com/detroit/welcome-to-maga-country-white-angst-keeps-trumpism-alive-in-macomb-county/Content?oid=26946615
As contingent faculty in an expensive state, we always keep an eye on places to land should our jobs turn unsustainable. I love the natural environment of Upper Michigan, but the social environment scares the shit out of me. Minnesota has its own problems it’s dealing with, but it seems a bit less far down the Q-and-white-identity rabbit hole.
What bobbyp said.
But apart from that, I too lay out the welcome mat, Farmer Ron. I reckon the insights of a farmer from the “center of the states” could be interesting: let a thousand flowers bloom (if you can forgive the misquotation, and the source).
Also very glad (and impressed) all your family made it through, despite their ages. May we all enjoy a life which is more than just surviving.
What bobbyp said.
But apart from that, I too lay out the welcome mat, Farmer Ron. I reckon the insights of a farmer from the “center of the states” could be interesting: let a thousand flowers bloom (if you can forgive the misquotation, and the source).
Also very glad (and impressed) all your family made it through, despite their ages. May we all enjoy a life which is more than just surviving.
Farmer Ron, which state? What are your crops? I farmed decades ago in Missouri. Around Joplin.
Farmer Ron, which state? What are your crops? I farmed decades ago in Missouri. Around Joplin.
An irony of the times is that there are farmers making more money from making YouTube videos about their farming than they’re making from their farming.
An irony of the times is that there are farmers making more money from making YouTube videos about their farming than they’re making from their farming.
might be the last time i go there.
In my town, the guys at the dump seem less than committed to the whole mask thing. Sadly, I can’t avoid going to the dump.
It’s outside and it’s easy enough to give them a nice wide berth, but it’d be nice if they’d take one for the team. IMO.
might be the last time i go there.
In my town, the guys at the dump seem less than committed to the whole mask thing. Sadly, I can’t avoid going to the dump.
It’s outside and it’s easy enough to give them a nice wide berth, but it’d be nice if they’d take one for the team. IMO.
Farmer Ron, which state?
based on his accent, I’m guessing Iowa.
might be the last time i go there.
your hardware store and the landfills in Massachusetts may be abject failures when it comes to taking on COVID, but here’s a place that succeeded.
Undoubtedly there will be those who say “we could not possibly have done that”. My response? We didn’t even really try. Even a glimmer of a more or less distant proximation could have prevented hundreds of thousands of easily preventable deaths.
But no. It was supposed to disappear by last Easter.
Conservatives claim to be “all in” when it comes to the collective sacrifice deemed necessary to invade small countries in the Middle East, starve social welfare programs and give all of our wealth to the already wealthy, but when it comes to a real gut check….like looming climate catastrophe, or deeply embedded racial disparities, they are MIA.
We can thank our lucky stars they weren’t running things during the Great Depression or WWII.
Farmer Ron, which state?
based on his accent, I’m guessing Iowa.
might be the last time i go there.
your hardware store and the landfills in Massachusetts may be abject failures when it comes to taking on COVID, but here’s a place that succeeded.
Undoubtedly there will be those who say “we could not possibly have done that”. My response? We didn’t even really try. Even a glimmer of a more or less distant proximation could have prevented hundreds of thousands of easily preventable deaths.
But no. It was supposed to disappear by last Easter.
Conservatives claim to be “all in” when it comes to the collective sacrifice deemed necessary to invade small countries in the Middle East, starve social welfare programs and give all of our wealth to the already wealthy, but when it comes to a real gut check….like looming climate catastrophe, or deeply embedded racial disparities, they are MIA.
We can thank our lucky stars they weren’t running things during the Great Depression or WWII.
I don’t really know how to square the “more to life than surviving” thing with mask-wearing. It’s not like we’re living in the tube during the blitz, nor is it that not wearing a mask is a profoundly fulfilling experience. It’s an absurd formulation, IMO. Just not funny like Monty Python.
I don’t really know how to square the “more to life than surviving” thing with mask-wearing. It’s not like we’re living in the tube during the blitz, nor is it that not wearing a mask is a profoundly fulfilling experience. It’s an absurd formulation, IMO. Just not funny like Monty Python.
And what hsh said (no offense, Farmer Ron, just trying to puzzle out the life/surviving thing as it relates to the mask question).
And what hsh said (no offense, Farmer Ron, just trying to puzzle out the life/surviving thing as it relates to the mask question).
I should admit that I’m pretty sure I’d have become one of the world’s greatest living mathematicians over the last year if it weren’t for this stupid mask.
I should admit that I’m pretty sure I’d have become one of the world’s greatest living mathematicians over the last year if it weren’t for this stupid mask.
An irony of the times is that there are farmers making more money from making YouTube videos about their farming than they’re making from their farming.
Not just farmers either. Tow truck operators, too!
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCwdVOry0oNF9WIe_3uCfz9Q
Probably helps that southern Utah is so picturesque.
An irony of the times is that there are farmers making more money from making YouTube videos about their farming than they’re making from their farming.
Not just farmers either. Tow truck operators, too!
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCwdVOry0oNF9WIe_3uCfz9Q
Probably helps that southern Utah is so picturesque.
I’d have become one of the world’s greatest living mathematicians over the last year if it weren’t for this stupid mask.
as an upside, it does help to thwart the paparazzi.
I’d have become one of the world’s greatest living mathematicians over the last year if it weren’t for this stupid mask.
as an upside, it does help to thwart the paparazzi.
We could have a whole thread about improbable YouTube channels we have discovered. Like the Finn with a hydrolic press that he squeezes unlikely things with. And then moved Beyond The Press.
Wild and wonderful, the businesses people have started that would have been simply inconceivable, even in science fiction, in my youth.
We could have a whole thread about improbable YouTube channels we have discovered. Like the Finn with a hydrolic press that he squeezes unlikely things with. And then moved Beyond The Press.
Wild and wonderful, the businesses people have started that would have been simply inconceivable, even in science fiction, in my youth.
An irony of the times is that there are farmers making more money from making YouTube videos about their farming than they’re making from their farming.
If it keeps them solvent and on their farm, great!
I subscribe to two of that kind of farmer. One up in Vermont is just getting started – still has a “regular” job, in fact – and YouTube revenue is an essential part of his business plan. Another family are essentially subsistence farmers: not interested in growing enough to sell and make money, the purpose of their farm is simply to grow their own food. Not sure how important YouTube revenue is to them, though it surely doesn’t hurt.
The idea of making any money from YouTube at all was startling enough to me at first; the idea that people can make enough to actually have it be their primary or sole source of income blows my mind. Everyone’s a mini-media-mogul! I have a lot of respect for those folks; cannot imagine doing it myself. (I lack not only the essential cinematography skills: that level of privacy loss gives me hives just thinking about it.)
An irony of the times is that there are farmers making more money from making YouTube videos about their farming than they’re making from their farming.
If it keeps them solvent and on their farm, great!
I subscribe to two of that kind of farmer. One up in Vermont is just getting started – still has a “regular” job, in fact – and YouTube revenue is an essential part of his business plan. Another family are essentially subsistence farmers: not interested in growing enough to sell and make money, the purpose of their farm is simply to grow their own food. Not sure how important YouTube revenue is to them, though it surely doesn’t hurt.
The idea of making any money from YouTube at all was startling enough to me at first; the idea that people can make enough to actually have it be their primary or sole source of income blows my mind. Everyone’s a mini-media-mogul! I have a lot of respect for those folks; cannot imagine doing it myself. (I lack not only the essential cinematography skills: that level of privacy loss gives me hives just thinking about it.)
Another potential outcome of the pandemic: we may get more serious about looking at DNA factors in susceptibility. For example, there’s this fascinating article
https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2021/02/24/dna-from-neanderthals-affects-vulnerability-to-covid-19
on how gene sequences inherited from Neanderthals apparently gives increased (or decreased, depending on which one) vulnerability to covid-19.
Another potential outcome of the pandemic: we may get more serious about looking at DNA factors in susceptibility. For example, there’s this fascinating article
https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2021/02/24/dna-from-neanderthals-affects-vulnerability-to-covid-19
on how gene sequences inherited from Neanderthals apparently gives increased (or decreased, depending on which one) vulnerability to covid-19.
i absolutely must carry a 2-pound pistol on my hip at all times in case i need to deliberately a bunch of strangers. but wear a .25oz mask so that i don’t accidentally kill strangers?
TYRANNY!
i absolutely must carry a 2-pound pistol on my hip at all times in case i need to deliberately a bunch of strangers. but wear a .25oz mask so that i don’t accidentally kill strangers?
TYRANNY!
I distinctly remember ordering two “kill”s for that last comments
Thanks USPS
I distinctly remember ordering two “kill”s for that last comments
Thanks USPS
Blame DeJoy. He’s slowed down deliveries — and not just for mail ballots.
Blame DeJoy. He’s slowed down deliveries — and not just for mail ballots.
We could have a whole thread about improbable YouTube channels
The twins who post videos of the first time they are listening to classic songs have brought my day to a standstill more than once.
gene sequences inherited from Neanderthals apparently gives increased (or decreased, depending on which one) vulnerability to covid-19.
According to Geno, I have an unusually high percentage of Neanderthal DNA (insert joke here).
I don’t know which kind it is, though.
I”m going with vax and mask.
We could have a whole thread about improbable YouTube channels
The twins who post videos of the first time they are listening to classic songs have brought my day to a standstill more than once.
gene sequences inherited from Neanderthals apparently gives increased (or decreased, depending on which one) vulnerability to covid-19.
According to Geno, I have an unusually high percentage of Neanderthal DNA (insert joke here).
I don’t know which kind it is, though.
I”m going with vax and mask.
The first results I got from 23AndMe said that I had more Neanderthal factors than 94% of everyone else. Then they updated their Neanderthal data and downgraded me to 34%.
The number of men self-identifying as Neanderthal is far outstripped by the number of women claiming to be married to one…
The first results I got from 23AndMe said that I had more Neanderthal factors than 94% of everyone else. Then they updated their Neanderthal data and downgraded me to 34%.
The number of men self-identifying as Neanderthal is far outstripped by the number of women claiming to be married to one…
We have no idea about the political preferences of Neanderthals or their views on equality but nonetheless we make ‘Neanderthal’ an insult.
I assume, if they were still visibly around (not just in traces in our DNA), there would be a ‘one drop rule’ and anti-miscegenation laws.
We have no idea about the political preferences of Neanderthals or their views on equality but nonetheless we make ‘Neanderthal’ an insult.
I assume, if they were still visibly around (not just in traces in our DNA), there would be a ‘one drop rule’ and anti-miscegenation laws.
GftNC, no one here is going to give anyone a hard time about wearing a mask. It may seem inconceivable but much of FL is back to a pretty normal,precovid, state. And I mean simy that people go to restaurants, bars, karaoke night, the beach etc. People who aren’t vaccinated or feel at risk simply avoid those places.
In grocery stores, etc which people cant avoid everyone is quite courteous and wear masks, social distance in line, avoid face to face contact. It is not a horde of murderous people willing to kill each other.
As the deaths further decline I suspect more people will venture into riskier venues. People over 65 accounted for 80% of deaths, but 81% of people in the US over 65 have received at least one shot. 65% fully vaccinated. So in six weeks or less 80% of the highest risk group will be vaccinated.
The hospitals here have, all along, offered vaccines to high risk people from a comorbidity standpoint on a doctors referral.
It doesn’t seem unreasonable for life to begin to be more active if not normal. I understand the hesitations to participate in that, I don’t understand the hostility toward others doing it that some express.
GftNC, no one here is going to give anyone a hard time about wearing a mask. It may seem inconceivable but much of FL is back to a pretty normal,precovid, state. And I mean simy that people go to restaurants, bars, karaoke night, the beach etc. People who aren’t vaccinated or feel at risk simply avoid those places.
In grocery stores, etc which people cant avoid everyone is quite courteous and wear masks, social distance in line, avoid face to face contact. It is not a horde of murderous people willing to kill each other.
As the deaths further decline I suspect more people will venture into riskier venues. People over 65 accounted for 80% of deaths, but 81% of people in the US over 65 have received at least one shot. 65% fully vaccinated. So in six weeks or less 80% of the highest risk group will be vaccinated.
The hospitals here have, all along, offered vaccines to high risk people from a comorbidity standpoint on a doctors referral.
It doesn’t seem unreasonable for life to begin to be more active if not normal. I understand the hesitations to participate in that, I don’t understand the hostility toward others doing it that some express.
I don’t understand the hostility toward others doing it that some express.
People aren’t hostile toward others participating in life being more active. If you’ve been vaccinated, there are a variety of things you can do now, safely, that you could not do before. Nobody here has any issue with anyone doing any of those things.
They are hostile toward people not wearing masks in public places, and in particular indoor places or crowded outdoor places. Why? Because it’s not clear at this point if it’s safe to do that, even if you’ve been vaccinated, and certainly if you have not.
The odds are probably better. How much better? Not known at this point. Not by you, not by McK, not by me, not by anybody. Still trying to figure that out.
And that assumes that everyone walking around without a mask has been vaccinated, which is not known and, depending on where you are, somewhere between unlikely and highly unlikely to be so.
So, speaking for myself, not wearing a mask when you’re around other people – even if you’ve been vaccinated – seems like an indulgence that runs the risk of putting the time when we can *all* return to something like normal that much further off.
You, personally, are highly unlikely to get COVID at this point, and are vanishingly unlikely to be symptomatic even if you do. It’s less clear that you are incapable of transmitting it to others, whether you are infected or not. That is the state of the science. It’s unknown.
So not wearing a mask around other people presents a risk of continuing the spread of the disease. Big risk? Probably not. Small risk? Negligible risk? We don’t know. And the risk is not really to you, it’s to folks you come in contact with.
Everyone is entitled to take whatever risks they want to take with their own life and health. Nobody is entitled to make those choices for other people. Right?
And what’s being asked is that you wear a piece of cloth over your mouth and nose when you’re around other people that aren’t part of your household, and that you don’t know to have been vaccinated. That’s the ask. It leaves room for a very wide range of normal activity.
So on the whole, to me and I guess people like me, it seems selfish to not wear a mask around other people, just because you are likely to be immune.
It’s not hard to understand.
I don’t understand the hostility toward others doing it that some express.
People aren’t hostile toward others participating in life being more active. If you’ve been vaccinated, there are a variety of things you can do now, safely, that you could not do before. Nobody here has any issue with anyone doing any of those things.
They are hostile toward people not wearing masks in public places, and in particular indoor places or crowded outdoor places. Why? Because it’s not clear at this point if it’s safe to do that, even if you’ve been vaccinated, and certainly if you have not.
The odds are probably better. How much better? Not known at this point. Not by you, not by McK, not by me, not by anybody. Still trying to figure that out.
And that assumes that everyone walking around without a mask has been vaccinated, which is not known and, depending on where you are, somewhere between unlikely and highly unlikely to be so.
So, speaking for myself, not wearing a mask when you’re around other people – even if you’ve been vaccinated – seems like an indulgence that runs the risk of putting the time when we can *all* return to something like normal that much further off.
You, personally, are highly unlikely to get COVID at this point, and are vanishingly unlikely to be symptomatic even if you do. It’s less clear that you are incapable of transmitting it to others, whether you are infected or not. That is the state of the science. It’s unknown.
So not wearing a mask around other people presents a risk of continuing the spread of the disease. Big risk? Probably not. Small risk? Negligible risk? We don’t know. And the risk is not really to you, it’s to folks you come in contact with.
Everyone is entitled to take whatever risks they want to take with their own life and health. Nobody is entitled to make those choices for other people. Right?
And what’s being asked is that you wear a piece of cloth over your mouth and nose when you’re around other people that aren’t part of your household, and that you don’t know to have been vaccinated. That’s the ask. It leaves room for a very wide range of normal activity.
So on the whole, to me and I guess people like me, it seems selfish to not wear a mask around other people, just because you are likely to be immune.
It’s not hard to understand.
As the deaths further decline…
Both Covid cases and deaths in Florida are substantially higher than they were a month ago.
The reason for the rather mild hostility some of us have expressed is that doing your own thing in an epidemic results in the deaths of other people.
As the deaths further decline…
Both Covid cases and deaths in Florida are substantially higher than they were a month ago.
The reason for the rather mild hostility some of us have expressed is that doing your own thing in an epidemic results in the deaths of other people.
The 7 day moving average of deaths was 60 a month ago and 61 today and the overall trend is still down. I suspect it will continue down with plateaus.
Nothing I am doing is resulting in the deaths of other people.
The 7 day moving average of deaths was 60 a month ago and 61 today and the overall trend is still down. I suspect it will continue down with plateaus.
Nothing I am doing is resulting in the deaths of other people.
Nothing I am doing is resulting in the deaths of other people.
That you know of. I can’t say for sure that nothing I am doing is resulting in the deaths of other people. I surely hope not, and take efforts to ensure that I don’t spread COVID – like wearing a mask in public spaces even though I’m fully vaccinated.
Meanwhile, you tell tales about people in bars being freaked out if someone wears a mask, Marty, and that it’s actually harmful to them for you to wear a mask while sharing indoor space with them. It’s difficult to figure out what your point is in this discussion because you say contradictory things depending on which way the conversation is going.
Nothing I am doing is resulting in the deaths of other people.
That you know of. I can’t say for sure that nothing I am doing is resulting in the deaths of other people. I surely hope not, and take efforts to ensure that I don’t spread COVID – like wearing a mask in public spaces even though I’m fully vaccinated.
Meanwhile, you tell tales about people in bars being freaked out if someone wears a mask, Marty, and that it’s actually harmful to them for you to wear a mask while sharing indoor space with them. It’s difficult to figure out what your point is in this discussion because you say contradictory things depending on which way the conversation is going.
GftNC, it wouldn’t be the least bit polite to walk in the bar on the corner with my mask on. It wouldn’t be kind or good manners. There would be 40 or 50 people wondering if I was sick. None of them would have masks on.
GftNC, no one here is going to give anyone a hard time about wearing a mask.
These aren’t literally contradictory, but close enough.
hsh: It’s difficult to figure out what your point is in this discussion because you say contradictory things depending on which way the conversation is going.
Marty’s point exemplifies a version of Cleek’s Law. With some contrarian “you people are all idiots” flavoring thrown in.
hsh: also, thanks for this: It’s an absurd formulation, IMO. Our two hearts beat as one.
GftNC, it wouldn’t be the least bit polite to walk in the bar on the corner with my mask on. It wouldn’t be kind or good manners. There would be 40 or 50 people wondering if I was sick. None of them would have masks on.
GftNC, no one here is going to give anyone a hard time about wearing a mask.
These aren’t literally contradictory, but close enough.
hsh: It’s difficult to figure out what your point is in this discussion because you say contradictory things depending on which way the conversation is going.
Marty’s point exemplifies a version of Cleek’s Law. With some contrarian “you people are all idiots” flavoring thrown in.
hsh: also, thanks for this: It’s an absurd formulation, IMO. Our two hearts beat as one.
They are not contradictory at all. The point was I would be making them uncomfortable. So I would not be being polite. Nothing I have said is contradictory.
In places where masks are required/requested I wear a mask. This ensures that people that go there can count on mask wearing and social distancing.
In those places where it is not I don’t wear one. Those same people can avoid those places.
I am pretty normal in my mask usage so if I went to a place where masks weren’t required, or the norm, I would be making them uncomfortable for no good reason if I wore one.
This divergence of places was almost certainly going to exist once bars, restaurants, beaches etc were reopened.
They are not contradictory at all. The point was I would be making them uncomfortable. So I would not be being polite. Nothing I have said is contradictory.
In places where masks are required/requested I wear a mask. This ensures that people that go there can count on mask wearing and social distancing.
In those places where it is not I don’t wear one. Those same people can avoid those places.
I am pretty normal in my mask usage so if I went to a place where masks weren’t required, or the norm, I would be making them uncomfortable for no good reason if I wore one.
This divergence of places was almost certainly going to exist once bars, restaurants, beaches etc were reopened.
Marty, I have zero interest in giving you, personally a hard time. I want you, and yours, to be well and stay well. But (as hsh, Janie, russell and Pro Bono have pointed out) when you say:
Nothing I am doing is resulting in the deaths of other people.
you cannot be remotely sure of this, given the current state of scientific knowledge. By going maskless into indoor venues, peopled with 40 or 50 maskless people (many of whose vaccination status you don’t know) it is perfectly possible that this is resulting in the deaths of other people.
Marty, I have zero interest in giving you, personally a hard time. I want you, and yours, to be well and stay well. But (as hsh, Janie, russell and Pro Bono have pointed out) when you say:
Nothing I am doing is resulting in the deaths of other people.
you cannot be remotely sure of this, given the current state of scientific knowledge. By going maskless into indoor venues, peopled with 40 or 50 maskless people (many of whose vaccination status you don’t know) it is perfectly possible that this is resulting in the deaths of other people.
They are not contradictory at all.
Sez you.
Those same people can avoid those places.
How fun!
This has been the attitude all along: we’re going to keep “the economy” and all our fun stuff going, and too bad for the rest of you if that means the virus will just keep spreading, and spreading, and spreading some more, and it takes all that much longer for the collective to get to a point where everyone can be safe again. It’s a perfect distillation of the words Marty once put into my mouth for wanting the right to get married: IGMFY. (Logic is for sissies.)
The virus could have been controlled within a couple of months if everyone pulled together. But enough people just don’t give a shit, or are actively hostile to measures taken for the public health, so that it’s going to be more like two years than two months.
Secondhand, no links, from someone teaching a genetics class: we’re going to be very, very lucky if this doesn’t turn out to be just the opening act for a much more contagious/lethal virus. If only it could be engineered to target only the people who think it’s no big deal how many people die….
“Normal” is not normal if people are still dying from COVID in significant numbers.
They are not contradictory at all.
Sez you.
Those same people can avoid those places.
How fun!
This has been the attitude all along: we’re going to keep “the economy” and all our fun stuff going, and too bad for the rest of you if that means the virus will just keep spreading, and spreading, and spreading some more, and it takes all that much longer for the collective to get to a point where everyone can be safe again. It’s a perfect distillation of the words Marty once put into my mouth for wanting the right to get married: IGMFY. (Logic is for sissies.)
The virus could have been controlled within a couple of months if everyone pulled together. But enough people just don’t give a shit, or are actively hostile to measures taken for the public health, so that it’s going to be more like two years than two months.
Secondhand, no links, from someone teaching a genetics class: we’re going to be very, very lucky if this doesn’t turn out to be just the opening act for a much more contagious/lethal virus. If only it could be engineered to target only the people who think it’s no big deal how many people die….
“Normal” is not normal if people are still dying from COVID in significant numbers.
I guess I’m unclear on what you’re looking to get out of the discussion here.
Nobody is going to make you wear a mask. You are free to wear a mask, or not, as you wish.
If you’re trying to convince everyone here that all of that is OK, you probably will not succeed, because apparently most of us, including me, disagree with you about the level of risk that you incur toward other people by not wearing a mask around other people.
If what you perceive as ‘hostility’ distresses you, you are probably going to have to live with it, because by our lights, you are contributing to this whole mess going on longer than it needs to.
You don’t see it that way, because of your understanding of the evidence available to you. We do see it that way, because of our understanding of the evidence available to us. Our point of view happens to align with CDC recommendations, so maybe we get a bonus point. But nobody here expects that to be persuasive to you.
Do what you want. Some of us find it irresponsible, and given the stakes, that makes some of us angry. If that matters to you, consider wearing a mask. If it doesn’t, don’t.
But if you’re looking for some kind of approval, or have some expectation that you are going to convince the rest of us that your actions are OK, that’s probably not gonna happen.
Regarding this:
Nothing I am doing is resulting in the deaths of other people.
You don’t know that, because the information you’d need to have to know that is unavailable.
I guess I’m unclear on what you’re looking to get out of the discussion here.
Nobody is going to make you wear a mask. You are free to wear a mask, or not, as you wish.
If you’re trying to convince everyone here that all of that is OK, you probably will not succeed, because apparently most of us, including me, disagree with you about the level of risk that you incur toward other people by not wearing a mask around other people.
If what you perceive as ‘hostility’ distresses you, you are probably going to have to live with it, because by our lights, you are contributing to this whole mess going on longer than it needs to.
You don’t see it that way, because of your understanding of the evidence available to you. We do see it that way, because of our understanding of the evidence available to us. Our point of view happens to align with CDC recommendations, so maybe we get a bonus point. But nobody here expects that to be persuasive to you.
Do what you want. Some of us find it irresponsible, and given the stakes, that makes some of us angry. If that matters to you, consider wearing a mask. If it doesn’t, don’t.
But if you’re looking for some kind of approval, or have some expectation that you are going to convince the rest of us that your actions are OK, that’s probably not gonna happen.
Regarding this:
Nothing I am doing is resulting in the deaths of other people.
You don’t know that, because the information you’d need to have to know that is unavailable.
It may seem inconceivable but much of FL is back to a pretty normal,precovid, state. And I mean simy that people go to restaurants, bars, karaoke night, the beach etc. People who aren’t vaccinated or feel at risk simply avoid those places.
Just want to put this out there explicitly again. Abnormal numbers of people still dying, and large numbers of people having to avoid places because other people won’t take the simplest precautions
IS NOT FUCKING NORMAL.
The self-congratulatory assertion of normalcy is mind-boggling.
It may seem inconceivable but much of FL is back to a pretty normal,precovid, state. And I mean simy that people go to restaurants, bars, karaoke night, the beach etc. People who aren’t vaccinated or feel at risk simply avoid those places.
Just want to put this out there explicitly again. Abnormal numbers of people still dying, and large numbers of people having to avoid places because other people won’t take the simplest precautions
IS NOT FUCKING NORMAL.
The self-congratulatory assertion of normalcy is mind-boggling.
Yeah sez me. Who is the “rest” of us? I haven’t taken any unnecessary chance to infect anyone.
The virus would not have been controlled under any circumstance, and I was isolated for a year. The first 8 months in a one bedroom apartment all by myself.
The only people calling names here are you and hsh.
Yeah sez me. Who is the “rest” of us? I haven’t taken any unnecessary chance to infect anyone.
The virus would not have been controlled under any circumstance, and I was isolated for a year. The first 8 months in a one bedroom apartment all by myself.
The only people calling names here are you and hsh.
we’re going to be very, very lucky if this doesn’t turn out to be just the opening act for a much more contagious/lethal virus.
It’s one of the challenges to achieving herd immunity: if enough people refuse to get vaccinated, they provide a pool where the virus can mutate. Quite possibly into something both more contagious and more lethal. Hence the comments (which have occasioned complaints from some of those who are already refusing to get vaccinated once) about the possibility of needing follow-on vaccinations for new versions of the virus.
we’re going to be very, very lucky if this doesn’t turn out to be just the opening act for a much more contagious/lethal virus.
It’s one of the challenges to achieving herd immunity: if enough people refuse to get vaccinated, they provide a pool where the virus can mutate. Quite possibly into something both more contagious and more lethal. Hence the comments (which have occasioned complaints from some of those who are already refusing to get vaccinated once) about the possibility of needing follow-on vaccinations for new versions of the virus.
I am pretty normal in my mask usage so if I went to a place where masks weren’t required, or the norm, I would be making them uncomfortable for no good reason if I wore one
Ok, a couple of points. I think some who’ve read my comments are misreading them. OTOH, the CDC has sent a lot of mixed signals and has failed to address/accommodate the millions and millions of people who simply cannot bear self-isolation for more than a couple of months and for whom self-isolation is overkill. Rigidly adhering to shelter in place is not a viable strategy if people have quit listening. Plus, the CDC is not clear in advising which cohorts are more and which are less at risk from CoVID. I said “from” CoVID, not “of” CoVID. Most people barely know they have it and bunkering in makes no sense if that is their frame of reference.
But, just because the CDC doesn’t message well doesn’t mean that indoor venues, particularly bars and whatnot and particularly those with relatively low ceilings and lots of air recirculation are not high-risk areas. Not wearing a mask–even if everyone at that location agrees to not wear masks–is unwise. Hell, choosing to enter that kind of establishment strikes me as risky business.
Gov’t doesn’t do nuance well at all. People who are not sick can be around other people who are not sick. People who have been vaccinated or who, prior to vaccines, limited their public outings and take precautions are not likely to get sick. Healthy people do not infect other healthy people. Hanging out with people who are vaccinated or, previously, who took prudent precautions is reasonably safe.
Anyone who wants can stay home and bar the door. We found that to be unnecessary for the reasons outlined above. What would have been truly problematic would be the uber-enforcement we read about (how much is hyped, I have no idea). Gov’t seems to have been plenty heavy-handed in many countries and in various areas around the US. Our personal fix would be illegal in many places. I have a problem with that.
We have friends who went maskless and spent a lot of time indoors with others who think very little of CoVID. We quit having them over or going to their house. Reasoned observation and conclusion, coupled with a due regard for strangers in public, is a perfectly fine compromise.
I am pretty normal in my mask usage so if I went to a place where masks weren’t required, or the norm, I would be making them uncomfortable for no good reason if I wore one
Ok, a couple of points. I think some who’ve read my comments are misreading them. OTOH, the CDC has sent a lot of mixed signals and has failed to address/accommodate the millions and millions of people who simply cannot bear self-isolation for more than a couple of months and for whom self-isolation is overkill. Rigidly adhering to shelter in place is not a viable strategy if people have quit listening. Plus, the CDC is not clear in advising which cohorts are more and which are less at risk from CoVID. I said “from” CoVID, not “of” CoVID. Most people barely know they have it and bunkering in makes no sense if that is their frame of reference.
But, just because the CDC doesn’t message well doesn’t mean that indoor venues, particularly bars and whatnot and particularly those with relatively low ceilings and lots of air recirculation are not high-risk areas. Not wearing a mask–even if everyone at that location agrees to not wear masks–is unwise. Hell, choosing to enter that kind of establishment strikes me as risky business.
Gov’t doesn’t do nuance well at all. People who are not sick can be around other people who are not sick. People who have been vaccinated or who, prior to vaccines, limited their public outings and take precautions are not likely to get sick. Healthy people do not infect other healthy people. Hanging out with people who are vaccinated or, previously, who took prudent precautions is reasonably safe.
Anyone who wants can stay home and bar the door. We found that to be unnecessary for the reasons outlined above. What would have been truly problematic would be the uber-enforcement we read about (how much is hyped, I have no idea). Gov’t seems to have been plenty heavy-handed in many countries and in various areas around the US. Our personal fix would be illegal in many places. I have a problem with that.
We have friends who went maskless and spent a lot of time indoors with others who think very little of CoVID. We quit having them over or going to their house. Reasoned observation and conclusion, coupled with a due regard for strangers in public, is a perfectly fine compromise.
normalcy
‘normalcy’ here seems to mean ‘I can go to a bar if I want to’.
which, to be perfectly honest, would be not far off of my own personal definition of normal. especially if live music and a cheeseburger were thrown in for good measure.
but it’d be nice to have a version of normal that meant we *all* could go to a bar. or, do whatever floats our boat.
we’ll get there, if Not-So-Sleepy Joe our national ham sandwich keeps rolling out the vaxes then it might not even be that far off.
if everyone would just get with the freaking program it’d be that much sooner.
normalcy
‘normalcy’ here seems to mean ‘I can go to a bar if I want to’.
which, to be perfectly honest, would be not far off of my own personal definition of normal. especially if live music and a cheeseburger were thrown in for good measure.
but it’d be nice to have a version of normal that meant we *all* could go to a bar. or, do whatever floats our boat.
we’ll get there, if Not-So-Sleepy Joe our national ham sandwich keeps rolling out the vaxes then it might not even be that far off.
if everyone would just get with the freaking program it’d be that much sooner.
we’re going to be very, very lucky if this doesn’t turn out to be just the opening act for a much more contagious/lethal virus.
Current reporting on active cases worldwide is almost 19M. That’s certainly an under-count. Who knows by how much? Daily new cases worldwide are also as high as ever and rising. That’s a lot of virus replicating and mutating around the world. Probability is not on our side because too many people are playing host to the virus’ rapid evolution.
we’re going to be very, very lucky if this doesn’t turn out to be just the opening act for a much more contagious/lethal virus.
Current reporting on active cases worldwide is almost 19M. That’s certainly an under-count. Who knows by how much? Daily new cases worldwide are also as high as ever and rising. That’s a lot of virus replicating and mutating around the world. Probability is not on our side because too many people are playing host to the virus’ rapid evolution.
The only people calling names here are you and hsh.
Gotta quote? I can call some pretty good names, so it would be easy to find if it happened.
The only people calling names here are you and hsh.
Gotta quote? I can call some pretty good names, so it would be easy to find if it happened.
wj and hsh: this comment that was quoted to me wasn’t about COVID, or COVID mutations, at all. It was about the possibility of other viruses emerging, let’s say with the lethality of Ebola and the contagiousness of measles.
The reaction of homo sapiens all over the world to COVID doesn’t bode well for what would happen then.
wj and hsh: this comment that was quoted to me wasn’t about COVID, or COVID mutations, at all. It was about the possibility of other viruses emerging, let’s say with the lethality of Ebola and the contagiousness of measles.
The reaction of homo sapiens all over the world to COVID doesn’t bode well for what would happen then.
I haven’t taken any unnecessary chance to infect anyone.
Just going to let that sit there.
I haven’t taken any unnecessary chance to infect anyone.
Just going to let that sit there.
the CDC has sent a lot of mixed signals
A brief comment on this.
I don’t disagree that the information from the CDC and other official voices has been inconsistent. I personally don’t ascribe that to incompetence, I simply think that there has been, and continues to be, a lot that is simply not known about COVID.
I also think it’s quite possible that the direction given by the CDC and other official voices will turn out to have been overly cautious. Charlie Baker here in MA wants people to be masked when they’re outside, full stop, even if they aren’t remotely close to anyone else. That’s overkill.
But people who are responsible for public health are probably going to err on the side of caution. And they should do that, and we should be glad that they do that.
The list of things the CDC says it’s safe to do once you’re vaxed is not very far off of McK’s list. There’s a lot you can do, that you couldn’t do safely before, once you’re vaxed. I encourage everyone to get vaxed and to enjoy every single moment of whatever it is they are then free to enjoy safely.
I just don’t think we know enough to say it’s safe to go un-masked around other people who we don’t know, and whose health and vaccination status we don’t know. So I don’t do it, and I think that people who do are contributing to all of this going on longer than it needs to.
For the love of god, just wear a freaking mask when you’re around other people. If there is a simpler, less onerous thing to be asked of you, I can’t imagine what it is.
I’m not even gonna get into the whole vax avoidance thing.
SMFH, as usual.
the CDC has sent a lot of mixed signals
A brief comment on this.
I don’t disagree that the information from the CDC and other official voices has been inconsistent. I personally don’t ascribe that to incompetence, I simply think that there has been, and continues to be, a lot that is simply not known about COVID.
I also think it’s quite possible that the direction given by the CDC and other official voices will turn out to have been overly cautious. Charlie Baker here in MA wants people to be masked when they’re outside, full stop, even if they aren’t remotely close to anyone else. That’s overkill.
But people who are responsible for public health are probably going to err on the side of caution. And they should do that, and we should be glad that they do that.
The list of things the CDC says it’s safe to do once you’re vaxed is not very far off of McK’s list. There’s a lot you can do, that you couldn’t do safely before, once you’re vaxed. I encourage everyone to get vaxed and to enjoy every single moment of whatever it is they are then free to enjoy safely.
I just don’t think we know enough to say it’s safe to go un-masked around other people who we don’t know, and whose health and vaccination status we don’t know. So I don’t do it, and I think that people who do are contributing to all of this going on longer than it needs to.
For the love of god, just wear a freaking mask when you’re around other people. If there is a simpler, less onerous thing to be asked of you, I can’t imagine what it is.
I’m not even gonna get into the whole vax avoidance thing.
SMFH, as usual.
Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification, Janie, even if it isn’t the rosiest of pictures.
Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification, Janie, even if it isn’t the rosiest of pictures.
The virus would not have been controlled under any circumstance
Funny, didn’t someone have a link to Vietnam in this thread?
I guess it just means “any circumstance” where bars and beaches had to be populated, and weddings had to take place, at any cost to the neighbors.
The virus would not have been controlled under any circumstance
Funny, didn’t someone have a link to Vietnam in this thread?
I guess it just means “any circumstance” where bars and beaches had to be populated, and weddings had to take place, at any cost to the neighbors.
I haven’t taken any unnecessary chance to infect anyone.
I’m having a little trouble with this assertion. Is not wearing a mask a necessary chance? (Because clearly the chance involved is not zero.) How is it necessary? Not really following something, obviously.
I haven’t taken any unnecessary chance to infect anyone.
I’m having a little trouble with this assertion. Is not wearing a mask a necessary chance? (Because clearly the chance involved is not zero.) How is it necessary? Not really following something, obviously.
And I know others have pointed this out, recently Janie @10.25 above, but even ignoring the risk of currently carrying the virus to others despite being immune oneself, the longer covid-19 is enabled to circulate in significant numbers in any population, the more likely it is for more deadly, more transmissable variants to develop and then outstrip available vaccines. And wherever in the world these variants develop, they spread throughout the world (it was astonishing how fast the Kent variant, with its greater transmissibility, spread). Which is why those who actually know and understand the science keep saying “None of us will be safe until everyone is safe.”
And I know others have pointed this out, recently Janie @10.25 above, but even ignoring the risk of currently carrying the virus to others despite being immune oneself, the longer covid-19 is enabled to circulate in significant numbers in any population, the more likely it is for more deadly, more transmissable variants to develop and then outstrip available vaccines. And wherever in the world these variants develop, they spread throughout the world (it was astonishing how fast the Kent variant, with its greater transmissibility, spread). Which is why those who actually know and understand the science keep saying “None of us will be safe until everyone is safe.”
It kind of sounds like Marty didn’t go around coughing in people’s faces, just for laughs, when he had COVID. Thank goodness for that!
It kind of sounds like Marty didn’t go around coughing in people’s faces, just for laughs, when he had COVID. Thank goodness for that!
Sorry, I see Janie’s 10.25 was not about covid. But the point I make holds nonetheless.
Sorry, I see Janie’s 10.25 was not about covid. But the point I make holds nonetheless.
I should take a break from being my usual wise-ass self to say that I don’t think Marty is some kind of extreme COVID villain. We disagree on a few points, even if they’re significant. But if Marty’s was the worst example of lax behavior with regard to COVID to be found, we’d be in much better shape than we are now.
I should take a break from being my usual wise-ass self to say that I don’t think Marty is some kind of extreme COVID villain. We disagree on a few points, even if they’re significant. But if Marty’s was the worst example of lax behavior with regard to COVID to be found, we’d be in much better shape than we are now.
I see the problem here. I didn’t and wouldn’t go to a bar, restaurant etc.before I was vaccinated because I believe those places can’t be made safe. Stupid place to be if you are still at risk. An hour sitting at a restaurant or a few hours at a bar listening to a good band and having a cheeseburger is not a place people at risk should be. And mask wearing in between bites or drinks ain’t gonna make it safe.
So my calculus is that if you’re there you have decided you are safe.
So wearing a mask there or on a beach is theater at best. Or while I am eating at aa restaurant is just theater.
I think absurd is the word you used hsh.
I see the problem here. I didn’t and wouldn’t go to a bar, restaurant etc.before I was vaccinated because I believe those places can’t be made safe. Stupid place to be if you are still at risk. An hour sitting at a restaurant or a few hours at a bar listening to a good band and having a cheeseburger is not a place people at risk should be. And mask wearing in between bites or drinks ain’t gonna make it safe.
So my calculus is that if you’re there you have decided you are safe.
So wearing a mask there or on a beach is theater at best. Or while I am eating at aa restaurant is just theater.
I think absurd is the word you used hsh.
Seconded.
Seconded.
Sorry, seconded referred to hsh’s 11.08.
Sorry, seconded referred to hsh’s 11.08.
IANAL, but it seems to me that deliberately coughing in someone’s face meets what I understand to be the legal definition of assault. Might even, if you know you are infectious, reach “assault with a deadly weapon.”
If charged, no doubt the offenders would be as astonished as some of those who stormed the Capitol were. My sympathy knows bounds.
IANAL, but it seems to me that deliberately coughing in someone’s face meets what I understand to be the legal definition of assault. Might even, if you know you are infectious, reach “assault with a deadly weapon.”
If charged, no doubt the offenders would be as astonished as some of those who stormed the Capitol were. My sympathy knows bounds.
somebody attempts to coughs in my face, i’m Standing My Ground, winkwinkknowwhatimean.
somebody attempts to coughs in my face, i’m Standing My Ground, winkwinkknowwhatimean.
ffs. my left hand clearly wants there to be more esses in the world.
ffs. my left hand clearly wants there to be more esses in the world.
my left hand clearly wants there to be more esses in the world.
Hey, ya do what ya gotta do, to get them out of your system.
my left hand clearly wants there to be more esses in the world.
Hey, ya do what ya gotta do, to get them out of your system.
I also think it’s quite possible that the direction given by the CDC and other official voices will turn out to have been overly cautious. Charlie Baker here in MA wants people to be masked when they’re outside, full stop, even if they aren’t remotely close to anyone else. That’s overkill.
Second guessing, like hypocrisy, is the preferred lubricants of political intercourse. So, in my world, near term over-reaction is better than near term under-reaction, and we should make allowances for near term caution. However, I insert a big “BUT” here and Mr. Baker is Exhibit A. If there isn’t a very strong bias to getting the info needed to mitigate the early over-reaction on a timely basis, if the default is “full on (or nearly so) DefCon 4” until there is simply no risk whatsoever, then credibility goes out the window along with compliance.
I also think it’s quite possible that the direction given by the CDC and other official voices will turn out to have been overly cautious. Charlie Baker here in MA wants people to be masked when they’re outside, full stop, even if they aren’t remotely close to anyone else. That’s overkill.
Second guessing, like hypocrisy, is the preferred lubricants of political intercourse. So, in my world, near term over-reaction is better than near term under-reaction, and we should make allowances for near term caution. However, I insert a big “BUT” here and Mr. Baker is Exhibit A. If there isn’t a very strong bias to getting the info needed to mitigate the early over-reaction on a timely basis, if the default is “full on (or nearly so) DefCon 4” until there is simply no risk whatsoever, then credibility goes out the window along with compliance.
Some expert words (and links) on the need for wearing a mask even after you are vaccinated.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/04/26/vaccinated-wear-a-mask/
Some expert words (and links) on the need for wearing a mask even after you are vaccinated.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/04/26/vaccinated-wear-a-mask/
New Jersey had its steepest decline in daily new cases heading into last summer, with minimal new cases lasting from the start of August until the first third or so of November. My speculation is that people gathered outdoors because the weather allowed that. People generally like being outside and, I don’t think they feel like their liberties are being taken from them when they’re doing something they’ve been waiting months to be able to do, anyway.
Florida had one of their peaks in the summer, I’m guessing because it’s too damned hot to be outside.
Masked or not, if people had been limiting their gatherings to outdoor venues (an ideal assumption given less-than-ideal weather), we’d be in much better shape.
New Jersey had its steepest decline in daily new cases heading into last summer, with minimal new cases lasting from the start of August until the first third or so of November. My speculation is that people gathered outdoors because the weather allowed that. People generally like being outside and, I don’t think they feel like their liberties are being taken from them when they’re doing something they’ve been waiting months to be able to do, anyway.
Florida had one of their peaks in the summer, I’m guessing because it’s too damned hot to be outside.
Masked or not, if people had been limiting their gatherings to outdoor venues (an ideal assumption given less-than-ideal weather), we’d be in much better shape.
I’m having a hard time following what the arguments are here, so I’m going to just point out what thing. When Marty says
So wearing a mask there [at a bar] or on a beach is theater at best. Or while I am eating at aa restaurant is just theater.
I read that as meaning ‘something unnecessary that only harms people’. I’d suggest a rethink of what ‘theatre’ means. It’s more like an encouragement to some standard of group behavior. Research shows that at crosswalks, for example, people generally follow the rules unless someone transgresses them and crosses against the light, which then gives other people license to do the same.
The ‘theatre’ is actually what drives social behavior, so failing to understand that there is a performative aspect in doing these things, just like the parent who behaves in front of their children.
Is masking behavior important enough that ‘theatrical’ use is needed remind people to keep their masks on? Obviously opinions differ, but I hope that Marty might consider that a bit more “theatrical” approach to all this might have saved more lives.
I’m having a hard time following what the arguments are here, so I’m going to just point out what thing. When Marty says
So wearing a mask there [at a bar] or on a beach is theater at best. Or while I am eating at aa restaurant is just theater.
I read that as meaning ‘something unnecessary that only harms people’. I’d suggest a rethink of what ‘theatre’ means. It’s more like an encouragement to some standard of group behavior. Research shows that at crosswalks, for example, people generally follow the rules unless someone transgresses them and crosses against the light, which then gives other people license to do the same.
The ‘theatre’ is actually what drives social behavior, so failing to understand that there is a performative aspect in doing these things, just like the parent who behaves in front of their children.
Is masking behavior important enough that ‘theatrical’ use is needed remind people to keep their masks on? Obviously opinions differ, but I hope that Marty might consider that a bit more “theatrical” approach to all this might have saved more lives.
to mitigate the early over-reaction
except, it wasn’t an over-reaction.
it was a vast, contagious, iu>under-reaction that has lead to the deaths of 600,000 Americans!
and if it wasn’t for the goddamned President of the US and his entire dingbat party playing like this whole thing was some fucking joke, a good number of those people would still be alive right now.
American “conservatives” might just be the absolutely least-responsible and most selfish people, ever.
to mitigate the early over-reaction
except, it wasn’t an over-reaction.
it was a vast, contagious, iu>under-reaction that has lead to the deaths of 600,000 Americans!
and if it wasn’t for the goddamned President of the US and his entire dingbat party playing like this whole thing was some fucking joke, a good number of those people would still be alive right now.
American “conservatives” might just be the absolutely least-responsible and most selfish people, ever.
just look at the absolute constant need for “conservatives” to blame the CDC for what they refuse to do in any case.
“oh i’m just so confused about the mask wearing – even though i am suddenly an expert in communicable diseases. guess i’ll just have to buy a fake vaccination card and go back to normal. all you vaccinated people can protect me from it, right? freedom!”
just look at the absolute constant need for “conservatives” to blame the CDC for what they refuse to do in any case.
“oh i’m just so confused about the mask wearing – even though i am suddenly an expert in communicable diseases. guess i’ll just have to buy a fake vaccination card and go back to normal. all you vaccinated people can protect me from it, right? freedom!”
“oh i’m just so confused about the mask wearing – even though i am suddenly an expert in communicable diseases.
Yeah. It would be LOL if it weren’t for the death toll.
“oh i’m just so confused about the mask wearing – even though i am suddenly an expert in communicable diseases.
Yeah. It would be LOL if it weren’t for the death toll.
Here’s another article on the MIT study Marty brought up earlier.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/staying-6-feet-apart-indoors-112732760.html
This seems to contradict Marty’s assertion that wearing a mask is theater (at best!).
Here’s another article on the MIT study Marty brought up earlier.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/staying-6-feet-apart-indoors-112732760.html
This seems to contradict Marty’s assertion that wearing a mask is theater (at best!).
American “conservatives” might just be the absolutely least-responsible and most selfish people, ever.
There are a lot of things wrong with your position. To begin with, it was several uber liberals who poo-poo’d the notion of isolating travel from the PRC and avoiding public places early on, along with DT. Next, reactions are local and state wide, not national. There is no national authority to tell people to stay home. Beyond that, the outcomes were mixed. Andrew Cuomo covered up his own malfeasance and it looks like he’s going to get a pass. Cuomo, Newsome and Whitmer were noticeably and notably “do as I say, not as i do”. Most places in the country adopted masking, social distancing and limited gatherings. Some places were more draconian than others. The science supports returning kids to school but look where the opposition is. Your knowledge of conservatives is actually pretty ignorant. I was at Lowe’s yesterday. A lot of Biden voters are going mask-free. The vast majority of people I know–conservative and liberal–wear masks. Generalizing and politicizing every single damn thing doesn’t advance any discussion. Do you really thing sustained over-reaction is a good idea? Do you really think years’ long shelter in place/no bars or restaurants is viable?
Shelter in place/stay at home was reasonable only in the short term. Yet, many still advocate for it, despite the evidence. Which is why I specifically referred to actual evidence, i.e. the MA outdoor mask thing.
So far, despite partisan efforts to play it otherwise, FL and TX seem to be doing fine with lifted restrictions. We’ll see how that plays out. But I don’t hear anyone echoing JB’s Neanderthal accusation.
American “conservatives” might just be the absolutely least-responsible and most selfish people, ever.
There are a lot of things wrong with your position. To begin with, it was several uber liberals who poo-poo’d the notion of isolating travel from the PRC and avoiding public places early on, along with DT. Next, reactions are local and state wide, not national. There is no national authority to tell people to stay home. Beyond that, the outcomes were mixed. Andrew Cuomo covered up his own malfeasance and it looks like he’s going to get a pass. Cuomo, Newsome and Whitmer were noticeably and notably “do as I say, not as i do”. Most places in the country adopted masking, social distancing and limited gatherings. Some places were more draconian than others. The science supports returning kids to school but look where the opposition is. Your knowledge of conservatives is actually pretty ignorant. I was at Lowe’s yesterday. A lot of Biden voters are going mask-free. The vast majority of people I know–conservative and liberal–wear masks. Generalizing and politicizing every single damn thing doesn’t advance any discussion. Do you really thing sustained over-reaction is a good idea? Do you really think years’ long shelter in place/no bars or restaurants is viable?
Shelter in place/stay at home was reasonable only in the short term. Yet, many still advocate for it, despite the evidence. Which is why I specifically referred to actual evidence, i.e. the MA outdoor mask thing.
So far, despite partisan efforts to play it otherwise, FL and TX seem to be doing fine with lifted restrictions. We’ll see how that plays out. But I don’t hear anyone echoing JB’s Neanderthal accusation.
From the current top of the page BJ post:
In a similar vein, this weekend I heard a story from a young woman who had just returned from a family trip in Utah. Unknown to them, the mask mandate in that state had expired during her trip. She and her parents walked into a gas station with their masks on and were angrily refused service unless they took them off. What are the odds that the clerk refusing service was vaccinated? I put them somewhere between zero and none.
Yeah, “normal.”
If there’s been a mandate issued that people not wear masks, I haven’t heard of it.
From the current top of the page BJ post:
In a similar vein, this weekend I heard a story from a young woman who had just returned from a family trip in Utah. Unknown to them, the mask mandate in that state had expired during her trip. She and her parents walked into a gas station with their masks on and were angrily refused service unless they took them off. What are the odds that the clerk refusing service was vaccinated? I put them somewhere between zero and none.
Yeah, “normal.”
If there’s been a mandate issued that people not wear masks, I haven’t heard of it.
Your knowledge of conservatives is actually pretty ignorant.
my knowledge is data.
FL and TX seem to be doing fine with lifted restrictions
FL: 5K+ new cases per day.
TX: 3K+ new cases per day.
huzzah.
Your knowledge of conservatives is actually pretty ignorant.
my knowledge is data.
FL and TX seem to be doing fine with lifted restrictions
FL: 5K+ new cases per day.
TX: 3K+ new cases per day.
huzzah.
“This seems to contradict Marty’s assertion that wearing a mask is theater (at best!).”
Actually it supports my point that restaurants and bars aren’t safe, since no on wears a mask while eating and drinking. So 50 people sitting in a restaurant at their tables 6 feet apart from 11 am until close probably contaminate the whole place pretty quickly.
“This seems to contradict Marty’s assertion that wearing a mask is theater (at best!).”
Actually it supports my point that restaurants and bars aren’t safe, since no on wears a mask while eating and drinking. So 50 people sitting in a restaurant at their tables 6 feet apart from 11 am until close probably contaminate the whole place pretty quickly.
More data.
More data.
Do you really thing sustained over-reaction is a good idea?
we haven’t even approached an overreaction. our reaction has been thoroughly inadequate, in large part to the GOP’s sustained efforts to minimize, distract and politicize it. the data shows the effect it had. the fact that the only people here arguing against actually trying to defeat this fucking virus, and actually make it possible to get back to “normal” without another 600K dead, are “conservatives” shows the effect. the GOP did this. scientists working with the data they had did not do this. mean liberals trying to destroy American business did not do this. Trump and the greater GOP did this. don’t even try that bullshit gaslighting here.
[and no, pointing out the source of the politicization is not politicization.]
Do you really think years’ long shelter in place/no bars or restaurants is viable?
know what would be viable? not having 600K dead from this virus.
Do you really thing sustained over-reaction is a good idea?
we haven’t even approached an overreaction. our reaction has been thoroughly inadequate, in large part to the GOP’s sustained efforts to minimize, distract and politicize it. the data shows the effect it had. the fact that the only people here arguing against actually trying to defeat this fucking virus, and actually make it possible to get back to “normal” without another 600K dead, are “conservatives” shows the effect. the GOP did this. scientists working with the data they had did not do this. mean liberals trying to destroy American business did not do this. Trump and the greater GOP did this. don’t even try that bullshit gaslighting here.
[and no, pointing out the source of the politicization is not politicization.]
Do you really think years’ long shelter in place/no bars or restaurants is viable?
know what would be viable? not having 600K dead from this virus.
I was at Lowe’s yesterday. A lot of Biden voters are going mask-free.
Um…….are Biden voters required to wear special insignia in Texas? Because I sure can’t walk into Lowe’s and know who voted for whom.
I was at Lowe’s yesterday. A lot of Biden voters are going mask-free.
Um…….are Biden voters required to wear special insignia in Texas? Because I sure can’t walk into Lowe’s and know who voted for whom.
My mantra: maybe I’ve written this here before, but…
I wonder what people would have said, or which people would have said what, if, a year and a half ago, someone had proposed a lottery. For every wedding, night out in a bar, party, church service, basketball game, etc., people had to designate someone close to them for the lottery. Then, before the specific event, someone’s name would be pulled from the hat, and that person would be shot dead in front of the gathered revelers.
That’s what the incessant calls for “opening the economy” have amounted to from the very beginning. Only there has been no requirement that the people whose death other people are willing to risk are people close to them.
Not that that might have made much difference, as wj has pointed out in mentioning those who persisted in calling it a hoax on their own deathbeds.
Of course, my lottery analogy is pretty weak tea in a country held hostage by 2A zealots.
My mantra: maybe I’ve written this here before, but…
I wonder what people would have said, or which people would have said what, if, a year and a half ago, someone had proposed a lottery. For every wedding, night out in a bar, party, church service, basketball game, etc., people had to designate someone close to them for the lottery. Then, before the specific event, someone’s name would be pulled from the hat, and that person would be shot dead in front of the gathered revelers.
That’s what the incessant calls for “opening the economy” have amounted to from the very beginning. Only there has been no requirement that the people whose death other people are willing to risk are people close to them.
Not that that might have made much difference, as wj has pointed out in mentioning those who persisted in calling it a hoax on their own deathbeds.
Of course, my lottery analogy is pretty weak tea in a country held hostage by 2A zealots.
Since Marty has come out as Floridian, I’ll add the perspective of a moderate Dem living in a blue metro-area here. took a flight to Utah and rented a house for a week to hike Zion and Bryce. This was after talking to pilots and flight attendants who passed along the low transmission rates for flight crews.
Regarding overreaction, can’t we say that there was, at least initially, an overreaction to surface spread and transmission while outside? It’s not damning to admit that there was some overreaction.
For the entirety of the pandemic I have not even put a mask in my pocket when I walk the dogs. I can easily stay six feet away if someone wants to speak to me. Because my neighborhood is popular with nonresidents for walking (quaint brick streets located downtown with three lakes), I have gotten the stink-eye from some mask-wearing strangers even though I go off the sidewalk to stay more than six feet away. On the other hand, in more conservative parts of the state (e.g., where I go kayaking on the west coast), you can get a stink-eye for wearing a mask indoors. I’m not drawing a false equivalency here … better to be too cautious than too brazen with safety measures. Mainly I’m just sad that mask-wearing has become a signal (whether you want to send one or not) that can prompt unhelpful responses.
We formed a COVID bubble early on with two other married but childless couples. When the weather was nice (most of the year here), we would meet at an outdoor restaurant or just bring a cooler of adult beverages to a park (Orlando relaxed open container laws for the pandemic). In the heat of the summer, we would have dinners at each other’s house. In late summer, our bubble
A few weeks ago, my wife and I rented a house in St. Pete and spent a weekend biking around and eating at outdoor restaurants and attended a socially distanced Rays-Yankees game. This was after we cancelled our Hawaii trip for my wife’s 50th birthday since that state made it very difficult to visit (as is their right). St. Pete-5-1 doesn’t have the same ring as Hawaii-5-0, but that was a very small price to pay for what was personally not as tough of a year as many faced.
The bubble is fully vaccinated even though none of us are high risk. Orange County has been aggressive in opening up vaccinations and the site out at the convention center is really well run and managed. Everyone still masks up for grocery stores and pharmacies. That may be true for all stores, but those are the only two that I visit. I don’t really go to bars regardless of public health considerations, so I can’t comment there.
I had exactly one friend get COVID and that was because someone in her bubble didn’t follow protocol and ended up infecting a bunch of people (this person has been rightly ostracized). My firm of 23 attorneys and staff had zero infections and we never completely closed down the office. I guess a cohort of upper middle-class professionals is going to be inherently safer than average, so probably not much to glean from that. Out of 23 attorneys and staff, we have three vaccine hesitant folks (one attorney and two staff).
Finally, as much as I dislike our governor, he did do a decent job protecting seniors and in hindsight, if he had cracked down on indoor bars and restaurants and focused government assistance on those areas, we probably would have avoided the worst of last summer’s spread. At the end of the day, Florida ended up being middle of the pack based on per capita statistics, but we could have been significantly better given our climate allows for outdoor gatherings for most of the year.
Since Marty has come out as Floridian, I’ll add the perspective of a moderate Dem living in a blue metro-area here. took a flight to Utah and rented a house for a week to hike Zion and Bryce. This was after talking to pilots and flight attendants who passed along the low transmission rates for flight crews.
Regarding overreaction, can’t we say that there was, at least initially, an overreaction to surface spread and transmission while outside? It’s not damning to admit that there was some overreaction.
For the entirety of the pandemic I have not even put a mask in my pocket when I walk the dogs. I can easily stay six feet away if someone wants to speak to me. Because my neighborhood is popular with nonresidents for walking (quaint brick streets located downtown with three lakes), I have gotten the stink-eye from some mask-wearing strangers even though I go off the sidewalk to stay more than six feet away. On the other hand, in more conservative parts of the state (e.g., where I go kayaking on the west coast), you can get a stink-eye for wearing a mask indoors. I’m not drawing a false equivalency here … better to be too cautious than too brazen with safety measures. Mainly I’m just sad that mask-wearing has become a signal (whether you want to send one or not) that can prompt unhelpful responses.
We formed a COVID bubble early on with two other married but childless couples. When the weather was nice (most of the year here), we would meet at an outdoor restaurant or just bring a cooler of adult beverages to a park (Orlando relaxed open container laws for the pandemic). In the heat of the summer, we would have dinners at each other’s house. In late summer, our bubble
A few weeks ago, my wife and I rented a house in St. Pete and spent a weekend biking around and eating at outdoor restaurants and attended a socially distanced Rays-Yankees game. This was after we cancelled our Hawaii trip for my wife’s 50th birthday since that state made it very difficult to visit (as is their right). St. Pete-5-1 doesn’t have the same ring as Hawaii-5-0, but that was a very small price to pay for what was personally not as tough of a year as many faced.
The bubble is fully vaccinated even though none of us are high risk. Orange County has been aggressive in opening up vaccinations and the site out at the convention center is really well run and managed. Everyone still masks up for grocery stores and pharmacies. That may be true for all stores, but those are the only two that I visit. I don’t really go to bars regardless of public health considerations, so I can’t comment there.
I had exactly one friend get COVID and that was because someone in her bubble didn’t follow protocol and ended up infecting a bunch of people (this person has been rightly ostracized). My firm of 23 attorneys and staff had zero infections and we never completely closed down the office. I guess a cohort of upper middle-class professionals is going to be inherently safer than average, so probably not much to glean from that. Out of 23 attorneys and staff, we have three vaccine hesitant folks (one attorney and two staff).
Finally, as much as I dislike our governor, he did do a decent job protecting seniors and in hindsight, if he had cracked down on indoor bars and restaurants and focused government assistance on those areas, we probably would have avoided the worst of last summer’s spread. At the end of the day, Florida ended up being middle of the pack based on per capita statistics, but we could have been significantly better given our climate allows for outdoor gatherings for most of the year.
credibility goes out the window along with compliance.
In the case of Gov Bakers “mask when outside no matter what, full stop” mandate, I generally agree with you. IMO it undermines more reasonable mandates.
credibility goes out the window along with compliance.
In the case of Gov Bakers “mask when outside no matter what, full stop” mandate, I generally agree with you. IMO it undermines more reasonable mandates.
The science supports returning kids to school but look where the opposition is.
The science says that young children are less at risk of catching and spreading COVID if they return to in-person schooling. But that’s one facet of the picture where schools are concerned. Keeping a school operating is not just a matter of kids in classrooms with teachers. Schools are complex institutions.
And a push to let schools “get back to normal” on a community by community basis based on local metrics is a plan that will have children in wealthy districts in school while poor districts get no help because there is no urgency to help them once the well off kids are taken care of.
If you want to argue this, please go do some actual research into this and read some of the studies before coming in to disagree.
Do you really think years’ long shelter in place/no bars or restaurants is viable?
No one has ever thought that extended shelter in place was a good thing, but we have thought that everyone complying Just long enough with a shelter-in-place to bring the spread under control might be something worth trying. But we have never had that – even with the orders – because there have been too many people defying the orders all along *for politicized reasons.*
The people still wearing their masks are not the ones dragging this out or keeping the schools closed. They are the ones who agree that a shorter shut down would be best.
We have an entrenched subculture of political assholes keeping us from ever getting any functional isolation to get this pandemic under control.
But here you and Marty and other self-styled moderates are blaming the people who are trying to fix things, while treating the assholes as if they are just people like you who are tired of the restrictions.
They aren’t. They are the problem. But your fellow feelings extend more to them than to us.
That’s a problem.
The science supports returning kids to school but look where the opposition is.
The science says that young children are less at risk of catching and spreading COVID if they return to in-person schooling. But that’s one facet of the picture where schools are concerned. Keeping a school operating is not just a matter of kids in classrooms with teachers. Schools are complex institutions.
And a push to let schools “get back to normal” on a community by community basis based on local metrics is a plan that will have children in wealthy districts in school while poor districts get no help because there is no urgency to help them once the well off kids are taken care of.
If you want to argue this, please go do some actual research into this and read some of the studies before coming in to disagree.
Do you really think years’ long shelter in place/no bars or restaurants is viable?
No one has ever thought that extended shelter in place was a good thing, but we have thought that everyone complying Just long enough with a shelter-in-place to bring the spread under control might be something worth trying. But we have never had that – even with the orders – because there have been too many people defying the orders all along *for politicized reasons.*
The people still wearing their masks are not the ones dragging this out or keeping the schools closed. They are the ones who agree that a shorter shut down would be best.
We have an entrenched subculture of political assholes keeping us from ever getting any functional isolation to get this pandemic under control.
But here you and Marty and other self-styled moderates are blaming the people who are trying to fix things, while treating the assholes as if they are just people like you who are tired of the restrictions.
They aren’t. They are the problem. But your fellow feelings extend more to them than to us.
That’s a problem.
Um…….are Biden voters required to wear special insignia in Texas? Because I sure can’t walk into Lowe’s and know who voted for whom.
You are in ME, IIRC, a pretty pale state.
Statistically, Biden’s base in Harris County TX is African American and Hispanic. So, I observe and make inferences. It’s also fair to say, when you get out in rural areas–Trump country–masks can be the exception. In rural areas, dentition can be a marker for DT supporters.
Um…….are Biden voters required to wear special insignia in Texas? Because I sure can’t walk into Lowe’s and know who voted for whom.
You are in ME, IIRC, a pretty pale state.
Statistically, Biden’s base in Harris County TX is African American and Hispanic. So, I observe and make inferences. It’s also fair to say, when you get out in rural areas–Trump country–masks can be the exception. In rural areas, dentition can be a marker for DT supporters.
The science says that young children are less at risk of catching and spreading COVID if they return to in-person schooling.
some of the newer variants are more contagious and dangerous in children. and those variations are going to spread if we keep kids un-vaccinated and close together.
frankly, this thing is never going away. we’re all going to be getting boosters for the rest of our lives – those who value their own freedom to incubate over all else excepted.
The science says that young children are less at risk of catching and spreading COVID if they return to in-person schooling.
some of the newer variants are more contagious and dangerous in children. and those variations are going to spread if we keep kids un-vaccinated and close together.
frankly, this thing is never going away. we’re all going to be getting boosters for the rest of our lives – those who value their own freedom to incubate over all else excepted.
Actually it supports my point that restaurants and bars aren’t safe, since no on wears a mask while eating and drinking. So 50 people sitting in a restaurant at their tables 6 feet apart from 11 am until close probably contaminate the whole place pretty quickly.
On this, we agree.
Actually it supports my point that restaurants and bars aren’t safe, since no on wears a mask while eating and drinking. So 50 people sitting in a restaurant at their tables 6 feet apart from 11 am until close probably contaminate the whole place pretty quickly.
On this, we agree.
It’s also fair to say, when you get out in rural areas–Trump country–masks can be the exception. In rural areas, dentition can be a marker for DT supporters.
I have the feeling that there is a fascinating story behind this comment. Care to elaborate?
It’s also fair to say, when you get out in rural areas–Trump country–masks can be the exception. In rural areas, dentition can be a marker for DT supporters.
I have the feeling that there is a fascinating story behind this comment. Care to elaborate?
Regarding overreaction, can’t we say that there was, at least initially, an overreaction to surface spread and transmission while outside? It’s not damning to admit that there was some overreaction.
personally, i don’t think of that as overreaction. i think of that as We Learned. it can spread on surfaces, it’s just not as likely as was initially thought.
and it seems like outdoor mask requirements should probably be relaxed.
indoor requirements should be toughened.
vaccinations should mandated (like they are for all kinds of other things).
Regarding overreaction, can’t we say that there was, at least initially, an overreaction to surface spread and transmission while outside? It’s not damning to admit that there was some overreaction.
personally, i don’t think of that as overreaction. i think of that as We Learned. it can spread on surfaces, it’s just not as likely as was initially thought.
and it seems like outdoor mask requirements should probably be relaxed.
indoor requirements should be toughened.
vaccinations should mandated (like they are for all kinds of other things).
wj, I think it means that all those people who are wealthy enough to own boats and participate in Clickbait boat parades nevertheless can’t afford braces.
Or maybe braces are a communist plot, so they hold with wearin’ them.
(Or more realistically, like a lot of people who own big pickups and/or snowmobiles and/or ATVs in Maine, they’re in hock up to their eyeballs for the boats, but you can’t get a bank loan for braces.)
😉
wj, I think it means that all those people who are wealthy enough to own boats and participate in Clickbait boat parades nevertheless can’t afford braces.
Or maybe braces are a communist plot, so they hold with wearin’ them.
(Or more realistically, like a lot of people who own big pickups and/or snowmobiles and/or ATVs in Maine, they’re in hock up to their eyeballs for the boats, but you can’t get a bank loan for braces.)
😉
Shelter in place/stay at home was reasonable only in the short term. Yet, many still advocate for it, despite the evidence.
I could be mistaken, but I think what folks are asking for here is that people wear masks when they’re around other people.
A lot of us seem to be perfectly happy avoiding public spaces altogether as a matter of temperament or personality, but I don’t think we’re trying to make obligatory.
Actually it supports my point that restaurants and bars aren’t safe, since no on wears a mask while eating and drinking. So 50 people sitting in a restaurant at their tables 6 feet apart from 11 am until close probably contaminate the whole place pretty quickly.
Yes, but you think it’s OK for you to go to bars etc now, because you’re vaccinated and therefore can’t spread the virus even if you’re exposed to it.
To my knowledge, the science is not at the point where anyone can say that with confidence. So it seems to me that you’re being irresponsible.
Who’s a loving caring person is beside the point. Whether folks in the grocery store intend to murder their neighbors, beside the point. Bars and restaurants staying closed for years is not something anyone expects or is calling for.
Nobody knows at this point whether a vaccinated person who is exposed to the virus can pass it along to someone else. You don’t know that, because nobody does. So the chance you take is a chance taken with other people’s lives and health.
Small chance? Big chance? Don’t know. Smaller than if you weren’t vaxed, bigger than zero. Beyond that, unknown.
Nobody’s gonna make you wear a mask, but that’s the reality.
Shelter in place/stay at home was reasonable only in the short term. Yet, many still advocate for it, despite the evidence.
I could be mistaken, but I think what folks are asking for here is that people wear masks when they’re around other people.
A lot of us seem to be perfectly happy avoiding public spaces altogether as a matter of temperament or personality, but I don’t think we’re trying to make obligatory.
Actually it supports my point that restaurants and bars aren’t safe, since no on wears a mask while eating and drinking. So 50 people sitting in a restaurant at their tables 6 feet apart from 11 am until close probably contaminate the whole place pretty quickly.
Yes, but you think it’s OK for you to go to bars etc now, because you’re vaccinated and therefore can’t spread the virus even if you’re exposed to it.
To my knowledge, the science is not at the point where anyone can say that with confidence. So it seems to me that you’re being irresponsible.
Who’s a loving caring person is beside the point. Whether folks in the grocery store intend to murder their neighbors, beside the point. Bars and restaurants staying closed for years is not something anyone expects or is calling for.
Nobody knows at this point whether a vaccinated person who is exposed to the virus can pass it along to someone else. You don’t know that, because nobody does. So the chance you take is a chance taken with other people’s lives and health.
Small chance? Big chance? Don’t know. Smaller than if you weren’t vaxed, bigger than zero. Beyond that, unknown.
Nobody’s gonna make you wear a mask, but that’s the reality.
me: so they hold with wearin’ them
There’s a missing “don’t” wandering around somewhere…
me: so they hold with wearin’ them
There’s a missing “don’t” wandering around somewhere…
original comment: Shelter in place/stay at home was reasonable only in the short term. Yet, many still advocate for it, despite the evidence.
response: I could be mistaken, but I think what folks are asking for here is that people wear masks when they’re around other people.
There’s really quite a substantial distance between “shelter in place at home” and reopening, without masks, businesses which involve lots of people indoors near each other. Failing to acknowledge that makes sensible agreement impossible.
original comment: Shelter in place/stay at home was reasonable only in the short term. Yet, many still advocate for it, despite the evidence.
response: I could be mistaken, but I think what folks are asking for here is that people wear masks when they’re around other people.
There’s really quite a substantial distance between “shelter in place at home” and reopening, without masks, businesses which involve lots of people indoors near each other. Failing to acknowledge that makes sensible agreement impossible.
One thing that remains to be seen in places like TX and FL is whether they see summer peaks this year as they did in 2020. I hope not.
I do hope places like NJ see the big declines they saw last summer. Between being outdoors and a good vaccination roll-out, I’m especially hopeful. Either way, no indoor restaurants or bars for me.
One thing that remains to be seen in places like TX and FL is whether they see summer peaks this year as they did in 2020. I hope not.
I do hope places like NJ see the big declines they saw last summer. Between being outdoors and a good vaccination roll-out, I’m especially hopeful. Either way, no indoor restaurants or bars for me.
I don’t have much time, so this will probably be a bit sloppily expressed, but: would it be fair to say that the liberal/lefties on ObWi seem to favour cautious behaviour that benefits unknown wider society (i.e. wearing masks around people in indoor venues who may or may not be vaccinated, plus the extra caution being likely to bring the pandemic under control more quickly so true normality can be restored more quickly) whereas our conservatives (particularly Marty, I guess) seem perfectly comfortable assuming that individuals should be responsible for their own safety (i.e. not going to bars where people are maskless if you are unvaccinated). Which latter attitude of course ignores people who are anti-vax, or think Covid is a hoax etc.
For some reason, this fits with what I have always considered liberal and conservative attitudes to the greater good. s\
I don’t have much time, so this will probably be a bit sloppily expressed, but: would it be fair to say that the liberal/lefties on ObWi seem to favour cautious behaviour that benefits unknown wider society (i.e. wearing masks around people in indoor venues who may or may not be vaccinated, plus the extra caution being likely to bring the pandemic under control more quickly so true normality can be restored more quickly) whereas our conservatives (particularly Marty, I guess) seem perfectly comfortable assuming that individuals should be responsible for their own safety (i.e. not going to bars where people are maskless if you are unvaccinated). Which latter attitude of course ignores people who are anti-vax, or think Covid is a hoax etc.
For some reason, this fits with what I have always considered liberal and conservative attitudes to the greater good. s\
whereas our conservatives (particularly Marty, I guess) seem perfectly comfortable assuming that individuals should be responsible for their own safety
well, that’s what MRs and i are doing. we’re not going to bars and places maskless conservatives are likely to be: indoor bars and restaurants. someday we’ll get back to it. how quickly that happens really depends on them, though. if conservatives want to avoid taking sensible measures to help society get on top of this, they only have themselves to blame if the rest of us are like “No Fucking Way”.
whereas our conservatives (particularly Marty, I guess) seem perfectly comfortable assuming that individuals should be responsible for their own safety
well, that’s what MRs and i are doing. we’re not going to bars and places maskless conservatives are likely to be: indoor bars and restaurants. someday we’ll get back to it. how quickly that happens really depends on them, though. if conservatives want to avoid taking sensible measures to help society get on top of this, they only have themselves to blame if the rest of us are like “No Fucking Way”.
I read the usual sources about the pandemic, but I would recommend to all here to bookmark Mike the Mad Biologist for COVID info and links.
Basically, as I understand the thrust of what he has been writing is we should have done the following:
1. Shutdown in place to get the incidence of infection down to something approximating a manageable level.
2. Impliment widespread testing to detect new infections.
3. Effective contact tracing after positive test results.
THIS COULD HAVE BEEN DONE. IT WAS NOT.
We didn’t have to go full Viet Nam (as I cited above), but we could have done a whole fucking lot better with effective political leadership that had the slightest connection with actual reality.
The Trump administration totally mismanaged this whole thing. This is true beyond a shadow of any doubt. They politicized the CDC for fuck’s sake.
Half a million dead…jayzus ‘effing christ. You know we totally lost our shit after some 3,000 were killed on 9/11 and spent trillions to avenge it. What did we do about this one? Oh, right, take a sip of bleach now and then…It will be gone by Easter, 2020. MAGA!
As Mike sez…the appropriate response is outrage.
I read the usual sources about the pandemic, but I would recommend to all here to bookmark Mike the Mad Biologist for COVID info and links.
Basically, as I understand the thrust of what he has been writing is we should have done the following:
1. Shutdown in place to get the incidence of infection down to something approximating a manageable level.
2. Impliment widespread testing to detect new infections.
3. Effective contact tracing after positive test results.
THIS COULD HAVE BEEN DONE. IT WAS NOT.
We didn’t have to go full Viet Nam (as I cited above), but we could have done a whole fucking lot better with effective political leadership that had the slightest connection with actual reality.
The Trump administration totally mismanaged this whole thing. This is true beyond a shadow of any doubt. They politicized the CDC for fuck’s sake.
Half a million dead…jayzus ‘effing christ. You know we totally lost our shit after some 3,000 were killed on 9/11 and spent trillions to avenge it. What did we do about this one? Oh, right, take a sip of bleach now and then…It will be gone by Easter, 2020. MAGA!
As Mike sez…the appropriate response is outrage.
would it be fair to say….
Speaking for myself, I’d say that is accurate.
I think there are contexts where it’s completely reasonable for people to have room to make their own choices about what risks they will or will not take on. And I think there are contexts where it is not.
Situations where your choices about risk tolerance spill over into other people’s health and safety generally fall into the second category. IMO.
The emergence of a novel virus that is both contagious and potentially lethal clearly falls into the second category. Again IMO, but that seems so obvious as to not be a matter of opinion. But that’s just my take.
There are some things that don’t work unless enough people agree to work the program. Establishing herd immunity through means other than letting the disease pick who lives and who doesn’t is one of those things.
At the risk of repeating myself ad nauseum:
To my knowledge, the science is not yet at a point that we can say with confidence that people who are vaccinated can’t spread the virus. We’re confident that it will make it much less likely to get the virus, and that if they do get it, they won’t get as sick as they would have otherwise. Those are very very good things. But we do not know about the transmission part.
So, vaccinated or not, if you’re gonna be around other people, you should wear a mask. Nobody is saying stay home, nobody is saying don’t see your friends, nobody is saying you’ll never be able to sit down and have a beer or a meal in public again.
The ask is that, if you are out and around other people, wear a mask.
Why that seems like such an intolerable burden is beyond me.
would it be fair to say….
Speaking for myself, I’d say that is accurate.
I think there are contexts where it’s completely reasonable for people to have room to make their own choices about what risks they will or will not take on. And I think there are contexts where it is not.
Situations where your choices about risk tolerance spill over into other people’s health and safety generally fall into the second category. IMO.
The emergence of a novel virus that is both contagious and potentially lethal clearly falls into the second category. Again IMO, but that seems so obvious as to not be a matter of opinion. But that’s just my take.
There are some things that don’t work unless enough people agree to work the program. Establishing herd immunity through means other than letting the disease pick who lives and who doesn’t is one of those things.
At the risk of repeating myself ad nauseum:
To my knowledge, the science is not yet at a point that we can say with confidence that people who are vaccinated can’t spread the virus. We’re confident that it will make it much less likely to get the virus, and that if they do get it, they won’t get as sick as they would have otherwise. Those are very very good things. But we do not know about the transmission part.
So, vaccinated or not, if you’re gonna be around other people, you should wear a mask. Nobody is saying stay home, nobody is saying don’t see your friends, nobody is saying you’ll never be able to sit down and have a beer or a meal in public again.
The ask is that, if you are out and around other people, wear a mask.
Why that seems like such an intolerable burden is beyond me.
I will only mildly reword that GftNC.
I am comfortable assuming that individuals should be responsible for the level of risk they are willing to accept based on known factors. I’m not going to your house or walking up to you in public, I m not responsible if you go to unsafe places. I’m not responsible if you refuse the vaccine.
I am not responsible for you putting yourself in harms way.
Knowing anti vaxxers and a couple of people that think covid is overblown, (mostly from how cases and deaths get counted, I don’t know anyone that thinks it is a hoax), I wouldn’t be comfortable going to a bar unvaccinated.
The primary difference I have with russell boils down to the question of how much of a risk I am to others.
My take is that if I am a sizable risk we are truly screwed because 100s of millions of people have been told for over a year that a vaccine would allow them to resume life. Coming in now and backpedaling on that is another move of the goal posts
So I took an experimental vaccine, that has no long term studies of what it’s effects are, in order to be safe now. As soon as I took it now I’m told we aren’t sure it’s going to achieve that? WTF? I’m going to the bar.
I will only mildly reword that GftNC.
I am comfortable assuming that individuals should be responsible for the level of risk they are willing to accept based on known factors. I’m not going to your house or walking up to you in public, I m not responsible if you go to unsafe places. I’m not responsible if you refuse the vaccine.
I am not responsible for you putting yourself in harms way.
Knowing anti vaxxers and a couple of people that think covid is overblown, (mostly from how cases and deaths get counted, I don’t know anyone that thinks it is a hoax), I wouldn’t be comfortable going to a bar unvaccinated.
The primary difference I have with russell boils down to the question of how much of a risk I am to others.
My take is that if I am a sizable risk we are truly screwed because 100s of millions of people have been told for over a year that a vaccine would allow them to resume life. Coming in now and backpedaling on that is another move of the goal posts
So I took an experimental vaccine, that has no long term studies of what it’s effects are, in order to be safe now. As soon as I took it now I’m told we aren’t sure it’s going to achieve that? WTF? I’m going to the bar.
And restricting travel from China, when the virus was already circulating in the US, was theater, particularly when it fell well short of a ban on travel to and from China. It was typical tRump BS for his dopey flock. Too little, too late, as the saying goes.
And restricting travel from China, when the virus was already circulating in the US, was theater, particularly when it fell well short of a ban on travel to and from China. It was typical tRump BS for his dopey flock. Too little, too late, as the saying goes.
1. Shutdown in place to get the incidence of infection down to something approximating a manageable level.
2. Impliment widespread testing to detect new infections.
3. Effective contact tracing after positive test results.
If you want to see some people utterly lose their sh*t, tell folks who won’t even wear a mask in a public place that you require them to let you jab a big Q-tip up their nose, that you want to know the name of everyone they interacted with for the last week, and that you want access to their cell phone so that you can trace where they’ve been.
People would have ended up dead, and not from COVID.
Would it have saved a lot of lives? Damned straight it would have. Read ‘em and weep.
1. Shutdown in place to get the incidence of infection down to something approximating a manageable level.
2. Impliment widespread testing to detect new infections.
3. Effective contact tracing after positive test results.
If you want to see some people utterly lose their sh*t, tell folks who won’t even wear a mask in a public place that you require them to let you jab a big Q-tip up their nose, that you want to know the name of everyone they interacted with for the last week, and that you want access to their cell phone so that you can trace where they’ve been.
People would have ended up dead, and not from COVID.
Would it have saved a lot of lives? Damned straight it would have. Read ‘em and weep.
My take is that if I am a sizable risk we are truly screwed because 100s of millions of people have been told for over a year that a vaccine would allow them to resume life. Coming in now and backpedaling on that is another move of the goal posts.
The “back to (something closer to) normal” thing was never a proposition for a given vaccinated individual. It was one for the nation after sufficient distribution of the vaccine throughout the population.
As a hypothetical, if you could somehow go to a bar where you were guaranteed that everyone in the bar was fully vaccinated, you could then rely on the vaccine to keep everyone reasonably safe.
Short of that, if the vast majority of people in the country – and specifically where you lived – were vaccinated, you could probably go into a place as one of those vaccinated people with a good conscience. Maybe at that point, the few unvaccinated people who were hanging out in bars would bear the responsibility for their own (lack of) safety. But that’s fuzzy math to me, not anything I would be confident in asserting.
My take is that if I am a sizable risk we are truly screwed because 100s of millions of people have been told for over a year that a vaccine would allow them to resume life. Coming in now and backpedaling on that is another move of the goal posts.
The “back to (something closer to) normal” thing was never a proposition for a given vaccinated individual. It was one for the nation after sufficient distribution of the vaccine throughout the population.
As a hypothetical, if you could somehow go to a bar where you were guaranteed that everyone in the bar was fully vaccinated, you could then rely on the vaccine to keep everyone reasonably safe.
Short of that, if the vast majority of people in the country – and specifically where you lived – were vaccinated, you could probably go into a place as one of those vaccinated people with a good conscience. Maybe at that point, the few unvaccinated people who were hanging out in bars would bear the responsibility for their own (lack of) safety. But that’s fuzzy math to me, not anything I would be confident in asserting.
Marty today: My take is that if I am a sizable risk we are truly screwed because 100s of millions of people have been told for over a year that a vaccine would allow them to resume life. Coming in now and backpedaling on that is another move of the goal posts
russell the other day: All of us lazy-ass generations who followed think the world owes us a box of chocolates and a dozen roses, delivered at our door, daily.
Yup, a bunch of petulant toddlers. Shorter Marty: Since information and communication weren’t perfect from the start, then there’s no reason to pay any attention now. That’ll show ’em.
WASF.
Marty today: My take is that if I am a sizable risk we are truly screwed because 100s of millions of people have been told for over a year that a vaccine would allow them to resume life. Coming in now and backpedaling on that is another move of the goal posts
russell the other day: All of us lazy-ass generations who followed think the world owes us a box of chocolates and a dozen roses, delivered at our door, daily.
Yup, a bunch of petulant toddlers. Shorter Marty: Since information and communication weren’t perfect from the start, then there’s no reason to pay any attention now. That’ll show ’em.
WASF.
By the time anyone was even talking about taking precautions about COVID and limiting travel, I had already spent nigh on two months in a small, poorly ventilated space with a class that was about a 50/50 split between international students (mostly from China) and local students from hispanic, Filipino, and Vietnamese neighborhoods (whose parents were not in the sort of jobs that could be done remotely). And I had been in that classroom with everyone else for a few weeks following Lunar New Year when all of the Chinese students on campus were socializing together. The virus was likely already here and already spreading before any of the precautions were considered.
And New York wasn’t infected by the Chinese variant. It was infected by the variant that came through Italy.
Travel restrictions could have limited spread, true. But they would have had to go in place a lot sooner than we even began to discuss the possibility for it to act as a quarantine. And it does little good to try to lock the door against outside exposure, but do nothing to limit the internal spread. All that does is slow the curve a bit, and we resisted every other measure that would have allowed us to slam that curve down in the early stages.
By the time anyone was even talking about taking precautions about COVID and limiting travel, I had already spent nigh on two months in a small, poorly ventilated space with a class that was about a 50/50 split between international students (mostly from China) and local students from hispanic, Filipino, and Vietnamese neighborhoods (whose parents were not in the sort of jobs that could be done remotely). And I had been in that classroom with everyone else for a few weeks following Lunar New Year when all of the Chinese students on campus were socializing together. The virus was likely already here and already spreading before any of the precautions were considered.
And New York wasn’t infected by the Chinese variant. It was infected by the variant that came through Italy.
Travel restrictions could have limited spread, true. But they would have had to go in place a lot sooner than we even began to discuss the possibility for it to act as a quarantine. And it does little good to try to lock the door against outside exposure, but do nothing to limit the internal spread. All that does is slow the curve a bit, and we resisted every other measure that would have allowed us to slam that curve down in the early stages.
The “back to (something closer to) normal” thing was never a proposition for a given vaccinated individual. It was one for the nation after sufficient distribution of the vaccine throughout the population.
Yes, a million times. But either this is beyond the intellectual capacity of a significant portion of the population to grasp on its face, or there’s no need to believe it because it’s a communist plot.
Or, well, “communist” is a little out of date as the bogeyman du jour. But the point is the same.
The “back to (something closer to) normal” thing was never a proposition for a given vaccinated individual. It was one for the nation after sufficient distribution of the vaccine throughout the population.
Yes, a million times. But either this is beyond the intellectual capacity of a significant portion of the population to grasp on its face, or there’s no need to believe it because it’s a communist plot.
Or, well, “communist” is a little out of date as the bogeyman du jour. But the point is the same.
Shorter Marty: Since information and communication weren’t perfect from the start, then there’s no reason to pay any attention now.
they have nothing but excuses and blame-shifting: perpetual whining. it’s an utterly worthless ideology.
Shorter Marty: Since information and communication weren’t perfect from the start, then there’s no reason to pay any attention now.
they have nothing but excuses and blame-shifting: perpetual whining. it’s an utterly worthless ideology.
Thousands of scientists, medical people, and government officials all over the world started early on to try to figure out how nations might all pull together to save lives.
Meanwhile, the REPUBLCIAN president of the most powerful nation on earth did his best to politicize and monetize the situation, and threw every spanner into the works that he could, lying, finagling, making sure his friends profited, in effect killing hundreds of thousands of people.
Yet we have what cleek said at 2:52: the biggest theme from the usual suspects is that the scientists, medical people, and government officials weren’t perfect, and are therefore the villains of the piece, and by god we’re going to get our revenge by ignoring them.
Thousands of scientists, medical people, and government officials all over the world started early on to try to figure out how nations might all pull together to save lives.
Meanwhile, the REPUBLCIAN president of the most powerful nation on earth did his best to politicize and monetize the situation, and threw every spanner into the works that he could, lying, finagling, making sure his friends profited, in effect killing hundreds of thousands of people.
Yet we have what cleek said at 2:52: the biggest theme from the usual suspects is that the scientists, medical people, and government officials weren’t perfect, and are therefore the villains of the piece, and by god we’re going to get our revenge by ignoring them.
The Trump administration totally mismanaged this whole thing.
A number of the mistakes made by the Feds would likely have happened regardless of who was president.
The Trump administration totally mismanaged this whole thing.
A number of the mistakes made by the Feds would likely have happened regardless of who was president.
I’m just glad the previous president was super helpful to public-health officials in maintaining focused and consistent messaging. Those government doctors and scientists really screwed things up, considering all the ardent support they got from the rest of the administration.
I’m just glad the previous president was super helpful to public-health officials in maintaining focused and consistent messaging. Those government doctors and scientists really screwed things up, considering all the ardent support they got from the rest of the administration.
A number…
One, two, seventeen, thirty-nine?
And how does that weigh in the scales next to the active, malicious, deliberate, probably criminal monkey-wrenching of the guy at the top and his minions and asskissers?
I’m sure this would all have gone much better if we hadn’t had any government at all.
A number…
One, two, seventeen, thirty-nine?
And how does that weigh in the scales next to the active, malicious, deliberate, probably criminal monkey-wrenching of the guy at the top and his minions and asskissers?
I’m sure this would all have gone much better if we hadn’t had any government at all.
My take is that if I am a sizable risk we are truly screwed because 100s of millions of people have been told for over a year that a vaccine would allow them to resume life.
IMO it’s entirely possible that we are, in fact, screwed, where for ‘screwed’ read ‘returning to something like normal life is going to take months and months longer than it needed to’. And if so, it will be because people refuse to follow simple direction.
You, Marty, are not a particularly egregious part of all of that IMO. As practical matter, you are probably a very small part of that, at most.
People who refuse to get vaxed at all are a very large part of that. People who haven’t been vaxed but who simply can’t be bothered to wear a mask in public are a very large part of that.
Your part is just providing a potential vector for them passing their irresponsibility on to somebody else. And maybe you won’t even do that. We just don’t know. I don’t, you don’t, because it’s not information we have yet.
But yeah, this is going to take longer than it needs to, and people are going to die who didn’t have to, because a lot of people appear to think the science and the public health recommendations don’t apply to them.
Sometimes that makes me angry, mostly it makes me shake my head.
If people would just work the freaking program, even the at-risk people would be able to go have a beer in the not-too-distant future. That would be a good day.
My take is that if I am a sizable risk we are truly screwed because 100s of millions of people have been told for over a year that a vaccine would allow them to resume life.
IMO it’s entirely possible that we are, in fact, screwed, where for ‘screwed’ read ‘returning to something like normal life is going to take months and months longer than it needed to’. And if so, it will be because people refuse to follow simple direction.
You, Marty, are not a particularly egregious part of all of that IMO. As practical matter, you are probably a very small part of that, at most.
People who refuse to get vaxed at all are a very large part of that. People who haven’t been vaxed but who simply can’t be bothered to wear a mask in public are a very large part of that.
Your part is just providing a potential vector for them passing their irresponsibility on to somebody else. And maybe you won’t even do that. We just don’t know. I don’t, you don’t, because it’s not information we have yet.
But yeah, this is going to take longer than it needs to, and people are going to die who didn’t have to, because a lot of people appear to think the science and the public health recommendations don’t apply to them.
Sometimes that makes me angry, mostly it makes me shake my head.
If people would just work the freaking program, even the at-risk people would be able to go have a beer in the not-too-distant future. That would be a good day.
One of my favorite places on the planet is a local corner bar with the slogan “Never Voted Best of Anything Since 1934.” I haven’t set foot in the place in well over a year. Who knows when I will again?
One of my favorite places on the planet is a local corner bar with the slogan “Never Voted Best of Anything Since 1934.” I haven’t set foot in the place in well over a year. Who knows when I will again?
Also, I think that the other point of inflection for GftNC’s summary of the left/right philosophies is in choosing who we focus on for the cost/benefit analysis. My sense is that the left tries to choose the course that protects more people who are at-risk even if that has a somewhat higher cost or inconveniences more people who are at low personal risk, while the right tries to maximize the liberty for the majority and then tries to mitigate, somewhat, the impact of those tradeoffs on the at-risk.
Also, I think that the other point of inflection for GftNC’s summary of the left/right philosophies is in choosing who we focus on for the cost/benefit analysis. My sense is that the left tries to choose the course that protects more people who are at-risk even if that has a somewhat higher cost or inconveniences more people who are at low personal risk, while the right tries to maximize the liberty for the majority and then tries to mitigate, somewhat, the impact of those tradeoffs on the at-risk.
Consider the Right’s attitudes toward:
1) Covid
2) CO2
3) Guns
Freedom of Emission seems to be a common thread, no?
–TP
Consider the Right’s attitudes toward:
1) Covid
2) CO2
3) Guns
Freedom of Emission seems to be a common thread, no?
–TP
There’s really quite a substantial distance between “shelter in place at home” and reopening, without masks, businesses which involve lots of people indoors near each other. Failing to acknowledge that makes sensible agreement impossible.
after a while, one might start to think maybe avoiding agreement is the goal.
There’s really quite a substantial distance between “shelter in place at home” and reopening, without masks, businesses which involve lots of people indoors near each other. Failing to acknowledge that makes sensible agreement impossible.
after a while, one might start to think maybe avoiding agreement is the goal.
My sense is that the left tries to choose the course that protects more people who are at-risk even if that has a somewhat higher cost or inconveniences more people who are at low personal risk, while the right tries to maximize the liberty for the majority and then tries to mitigate, somewhat, the impact of those tradeoffs on the at-risk.
That’s more or less fair.
My sense is that the left tries to choose the course that protects more people who are at-risk even if that has a somewhat higher cost or inconveniences more people who are at low personal risk, while the right tries to maximize the liberty for the majority and then tries to mitigate, somewhat, the impact of those tradeoffs on the at-risk.
That’s more or less fair.
TP — I’ve thought a lot over the years about “freedom to” vs “freedom from.” The people who talk most about freedom almost always mean “freedom to.”
Freedom to run your snowmobiles past my house at all hours of the night.
Freedom to run your jet ski around the lake at the crack of dawn on Sunday morning.
Freedom to dump your poisoned factory runoff into the rivers that sustain wildlife and the rest of us, however indirectly.
Freedom to dump factory emissions into the air, ditto.
Freedom to control my life according to your religious beliefs.
If you think of air pollution, water pollution, and religious tyranny as “emissions” — it’s all consistent.
In that view, there’s no right to freedom from noise, or air or water pollution, or the reach of religious zealotry.
A lot of freedoms have costs — for someone — but casual conversation almost never acknowledges that fact.
I would rather we all try to hash out what kind of world we want to live in, and figure out how best to achieve that. Certain people will call that tyranny, but being subject to the terrorism of weapons of war (just for example) at the mall or in the classroom is its own form of tyranny.
TP — I’ve thought a lot over the years about “freedom to” vs “freedom from.” The people who talk most about freedom almost always mean “freedom to.”
Freedom to run your snowmobiles past my house at all hours of the night.
Freedom to run your jet ski around the lake at the crack of dawn on Sunday morning.
Freedom to dump your poisoned factory runoff into the rivers that sustain wildlife and the rest of us, however indirectly.
Freedom to dump factory emissions into the air, ditto.
Freedom to control my life according to your religious beliefs.
If you think of air pollution, water pollution, and religious tyranny as “emissions” — it’s all consistent.
In that view, there’s no right to freedom from noise, or air or water pollution, or the reach of religious zealotry.
A lot of freedoms have costs — for someone — but casual conversation almost never acknowledges that fact.
I would rather we all try to hash out what kind of world we want to live in, and figure out how best to achieve that. Certain people will call that tyranny, but being subject to the terrorism of weapons of war (just for example) at the mall or in the classroom is its own form of tyranny.
Rereading what I wrote, it’s so incoherent I’m surprised any of you were able to make sense of it. But truly, if nous and Marty are able to agree on a suggested analysis of the difference in attitudes towards the pandemic by left and right, that’s more than I was really expecting.
The “back to (something closer to) normal” thing was never a proposition for a given vaccinated individual. It was one for the nation after sufficient distribution of the vaccine throughout the population.
In my opinion, this is and was exactly right. And to get there, it was necessary for most of the population to act in the interests of the greater good (which could of course have been helped by sensible advice from the government). This meant (at various times) limiting travel, locking down, wearing masks, and getting vaccinated. Very unfortunately, a sizeable proportion of the American population was not prepared to do much, or in some cases any, of this.
And in the interests of fairness, although Trump is certainly to blame for some hundreds of thousands of the American deaths, other authoritarian leaders are coming up fast behind him. Bolsonaro has had a similar effect in Brasil, and Modi (by refusing to stop political rallies, and huge, crowded religious festivals like the Kumbh Mela, which is still ongoing and during which a million or more pilgrims are crowded together) will almost certainly overtake them both.
Rereading what I wrote, it’s so incoherent I’m surprised any of you were able to make sense of it. But truly, if nous and Marty are able to agree on a suggested analysis of the difference in attitudes towards the pandemic by left and right, that’s more than I was really expecting.
The “back to (something closer to) normal” thing was never a proposition for a given vaccinated individual. It was one for the nation after sufficient distribution of the vaccine throughout the population.
In my opinion, this is and was exactly right. And to get there, it was necessary for most of the population to act in the interests of the greater good (which could of course have been helped by sensible advice from the government). This meant (at various times) limiting travel, locking down, wearing masks, and getting vaccinated. Very unfortunately, a sizeable proportion of the American population was not prepared to do much, or in some cases any, of this.
And in the interests of fairness, although Trump is certainly to blame for some hundreds of thousands of the American deaths, other authoritarian leaders are coming up fast behind him. Bolsonaro has had a similar effect in Brasil, and Modi (by refusing to stop political rallies, and huge, crowded religious festivals like the Kumbh Mela, which is still ongoing and during which a million or more pilgrims are crowded together) will almost certainly overtake them both.
One of my favorite places on the planet is a local corner bar with the slogan “Never Voted Best of Anything Since 1934.”
I want to go there.
One of my favorite places on the planet is a local corner bar with the slogan “Never Voted Best of Anything Since 1934.”
I want to go there.
the right tries to maximize the liberty for the majority
I’d dispute “for the majority”.
the right tries to maximize the liberty for the majority
I’d dispute “for the majority”.
To begin with, it was several uber liberals who poo-poo’d the notion of isolating travel from the PRC and avoiding public places early on, along with DT.
Restricting myself to corrections, I’m not sure who McT is referring to here, but my recollection was the race based isolation of travel.
The Trump administration restricted travel from China
The Trump administration suspended entry into the United States by any foreign nationals who had traveled to China in the past 14 days, excluding the immediate family members of American citizens or permanent residents.
https://www.nytimes.com/article/coronavirus-timeline.html
To begin with, it was several uber liberals who poo-poo’d the notion of isolating travel from the PRC and avoiding public places early on, along with DT.
Restricting myself to corrections, I’m not sure who McT is referring to here, but my recollection was the race based isolation of travel.
The Trump administration restricted travel from China
The Trump administration suspended entry into the United States by any foreign nationals who had traveled to China in the past 14 days, excluding the immediate family members of American citizens or permanent residents.
https://www.nytimes.com/article/coronavirus-timeline.html
Restricting myself to corrections, I’m not sure who McT is being referred to here,
lots of Dems (especially Congressional Dems) complained about Trump’s China travel ban. at the time, the virus was already here of course.
Restricting myself to corrections, I’m not sure who McT is being referred to here,
lots of Dems (especially Congressional Dems) complained about Trump’s China travel ban. at the time, the virus was already here of course.
Good point, russell. But it’s the kind of “majority” that the right means when it says “the majority of Americans are conservatives”. (The only link I can find is to remarks by Rubio in 2012, but I have heard this said by other Rs and rightwingers since). In other words, not a majority at all.
Good point, russell. But it’s the kind of “majority” that the right means when it says “the majority of Americans are conservatives”. (The only link I can find is to remarks by Rubio in 2012, but I have heard this said by other Rs and rightwingers since). In other words, not a majority at all.
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/the-facts-on-trumps-travel-restrictions/
Trump said Democrats “loudly criticized and protested” his announced travel restrictions, and that they “called me a racist because I made that decision.” Trump is overstating Democratic opposition. None of the party’s congressional leaders and none of the Democratic candidates running for president have directly criticized that decision, though at least two Democrats have.
and
Democratic Criticism
Trump has repeatedly claimed that Democrats have “loudly criticized and protested” his imposition of the travel restrictions, and have called the decision “racist.” But while leading Democrats have been outspoken in their criticism of the president’s overall response to the epidemic, very few have criticized his decision to impose limited travel restrictions.
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/the-facts-on-trumps-travel-restrictions/
Trump said Democrats “loudly criticized and protested” his announced travel restrictions, and that they “called me a racist because I made that decision.” Trump is overstating Democratic opposition. None of the party’s congressional leaders and none of the Democratic candidates running for president have directly criticized that decision, though at least two Democrats have.
and
Democratic Criticism
Trump has repeatedly claimed that Democrats have “loudly criticized and protested” his imposition of the travel restrictions, and have called the decision “racist.” But while leading Democrats have been outspoken in their criticism of the president’s overall response to the epidemic, very few have criticized his decision to impose limited travel restrictions.
the right tries to maximize the liberty for the majority
russell: I’d dispute “for the majority”.
As long as you take “the right” to mean real conservatives, as opposed to the reactionary scum who currently use that label in the US, then it’s actually not too far off.
the right tries to maximize the liberty for the majority
russell: I’d dispute “for the majority”.
As long as you take “the right” to mean real conservatives, as opposed to the reactionary scum who currently use that label in the US, then it’s actually not too far off.
Freedom: cobbling together some quickly googled numbers, I see that
Elsewhere I found a source that says that roughly a third of Americans own guns.
A third of Americans is roughly 110,000,000 people, or less than 1.5% of the world’s population — with almost half the world’s civilian-held firearms.
“Freedom.”
Or insanity, depending on how you look at it.
Freedom: cobbling together some quickly googled numbers, I see that
Elsewhere I found a source that says that roughly a third of Americans own guns.
A third of Americans is roughly 110,000,000 people, or less than 1.5% of the world’s population — with almost half the world’s civilian-held firearms.
“Freedom.”
Or insanity, depending on how you look at it.
Per lj’s comment — so in asserting that “uber liberals” poo-poo-ed Clickbait’s China travel ban, was McKinney trusting Clickbait’s own word for that? I see no links to sources.
I would be curious to know who they were and exactly what they were criticizing, if there’s any truth to the assertion in the first place. Like, I could easily see someone saying: banning travel from China is a useless (and racist) gesture if you’re not also going to ban travel from basically everywhere.
Per lj’s comment — so in asserting that “uber liberals” poo-poo-ed Clickbait’s China travel ban, was McKinney trusting Clickbait’s own word for that? I see no links to sources.
I would be curious to know who they were and exactly what they were criticizing, if there’s any truth to the assertion in the first place. Like, I could easily see someone saying: banning travel from China is a useless (and racist) gesture if you’re not also going to ban travel from basically everywhere.
re: factcheck.
it appears i have fallen for a “conservative” fairy tale.
lol
re: factcheck.
it appears i have fallen for a “conservative” fairy tale.
lol
My invoking “the majority” in the case of public health was mostly to acknowledge the reasoning that the right engaged in while thinking through the problems (feel free to object, again, to “thinking through”). I heard a lot from relatives about how the “small number” of people who are immunocompromised should be the ones who are avoiding the public and how the “small number” of people who contract COVID should be the ones quarantined and that “the rest of us” would then face acceptable risks going about our lives, and keeping “this great economy that we all built” going.
Those are, in other words, the set of values that *they believe/i> they are acting upon* when they choose their preferred course of action for public health policy.
My invoking “the majority” in the case of public health was mostly to acknowledge the reasoning that the right engaged in while thinking through the problems (feel free to object, again, to “thinking through”). I heard a lot from relatives about how the “small number” of people who are immunocompromised should be the ones who are avoiding the public and how the “small number” of people who contract COVID should be the ones quarantined and that “the rest of us” would then face acceptable risks going about our lives, and keeping “this great economy that we all built” going.
Those are, in other words, the set of values that *they believe/i> they are acting upon* when they choose their preferred course of action for public health policy.
I broke a bracket.
I broke a bracket.
nous: aha, that makes sense. Whether Marty will still agree is another matter.
nous: aha, that makes sense. Whether Marty will still agree is another matter.
today is the day we learned which states gained or lost representatives!
CA and most of the Great Lakes states lost one. NC, FL, OR, CO and Montana gain one, TX gains two.
let the gerrymandering distortions begin!
today is the day we learned which states gained or lost representatives!
CA and most of the Great Lakes states lost one. NC, FL, OR, CO and Montana gain one, TX gains two.
let the gerrymandering distortions begin!
As long as you take “the right” to mean real conservatives, as opposed to the reactionary scum who currently use that label in the US, then it’s actually not too far off.
I take “the right” to mean folks who call themselves “the right”.
And the kinds of things I’m talking about are:
A little over 30% of Americans own guns. An even smaller percent are militant about their literalist reading of (part of) the 2nd A and (part of) it’s historical context. They like the parts that let them do what they want to do, regardless of the impact on other people’s lives. And that point of view utterly dominates public discussion and policy about guns.
About a third of Americans identify themselves as evangelical Christians. They dominate discussion about the boundaries of religious liberty in this country, to the point that baking a cake for hire and operating a crafting chain store are considered to be exercises of religious faith.
I could go on, but I’ll let those examples stand to make the general point.
And to be honest, I’m actually fine with the *actual civil rights* of minority demographics being jealously guarded.
But that’s not the majority.
And if you consider the full range of factors that make people more likely to get or die from COVID, it’s not clear to me that when we talk about people who are at heightened risk we’re talking about a minority of the population.
It may well be that the folks who don’t have as much to worry about are the exception rather than the rule.
I think the dividing line here is between people who are willing to be inconvenienced to make sure other people aren’t harmed, and people who consider it to be the other guy’s problem to watch out for themselves. It’s a profound difference in attitude.
As long as you take “the right” to mean real conservatives, as opposed to the reactionary scum who currently use that label in the US, then it’s actually not too far off.
I take “the right” to mean folks who call themselves “the right”.
And the kinds of things I’m talking about are:
A little over 30% of Americans own guns. An even smaller percent are militant about their literalist reading of (part of) the 2nd A and (part of) it’s historical context. They like the parts that let them do what they want to do, regardless of the impact on other people’s lives. And that point of view utterly dominates public discussion and policy about guns.
About a third of Americans identify themselves as evangelical Christians. They dominate discussion about the boundaries of religious liberty in this country, to the point that baking a cake for hire and operating a crafting chain store are considered to be exercises of religious faith.
I could go on, but I’ll let those examples stand to make the general point.
And to be honest, I’m actually fine with the *actual civil rights* of minority demographics being jealously guarded.
But that’s not the majority.
And if you consider the full range of factors that make people more likely to get or die from COVID, it’s not clear to me that when we talk about people who are at heightened risk we’re talking about a minority of the population.
It may well be that the folks who don’t have as much to worry about are the exception rather than the rule.
I think the dividing line here is between people who are willing to be inconvenienced to make sure other people aren’t harmed, and people who consider it to be the other guy’s problem to watch out for themselves. It’s a profound difference in attitude.
NC, FL, OR, CO and Montana gain one, TX gains two.
And they are all now one step closer to being purple. Or maybe even blue, someday.
Let a thousand flowers bloom.
NC, FL, OR, CO and Montana gain one, TX gains two.
And they are all now one step closer to being purple. Or maybe even blue, someday.
Let a thousand flowers bloom.
Let a thousand flowers bloom.
The sooner the better. The day Texas turns blue is the day that the Republican Party either decides to return to sanity or becomes decisively irrelevant to American politics.
Let a thousand flowers bloom.
The sooner the better. The day Texas turns blue is the day that the Republican Party either decides to return to sanity or becomes decisively irrelevant to American politics.
With gerrymandering and all the new laws doing things like making voting harder for people in cities (“counties with > 1,000,000 people — was it someone here who cited that in Texas?), it’s going to be hard to turn purple to blue.
With gerrymandering and all the new laws doing things like making voting harder for people in cities (“counties with > 1,000,000 people — was it someone here who cited that in Texas?), it’s going to be hard to turn purple to blue.
purple will do
purple will do
purple will do
I’m not convinced. I see bills (not, so far as I know, in Texas; yet) to let gerrymandered state legislatures take over administering voting from counties which do not produce “acceptable” results. Makes me think you need a big enough majority that even gerrymandering can’t guarantee control.
purple will do
I’m not convinced. I see bills (not, so far as I know, in Texas; yet) to let gerrymandered state legislatures take over administering voting from counties which do not produce “acceptable” results. Makes me think you need a big enough majority that even gerrymandering can’t guarantee control.
Icon of the right, fomenting evil. h/t Adam Silverman at BJ
Icon of the right, fomenting evil. h/t Adam Silverman at BJ
While I think it’s possible I will live long enough to see Texas statewide offices become genuinely competitive for Democratic candidates, I think it’s also possible that if that seems imminent that Texas Republicans will give the selection of Electors to the legislature, which they will be able to maintain control of through gerrymandering + organic geographical clustering after losing statewide elections. I vehemently hope that I am being overly cynical and wrong, but seeing what eg. NC Republicans were willing to do in stripping powers from the governor’s office in advance of a Democrat taking over I think optimism is a luxury.
While I think it’s possible I will live long enough to see Texas statewide offices become genuinely competitive for Democratic candidates, I think it’s also possible that if that seems imminent that Texas Republicans will give the selection of Electors to the legislature, which they will be able to maintain control of through gerrymandering + organic geographical clustering after losing statewide elections. I vehemently hope that I am being overly cynical and wrong, but seeing what eg. NC Republicans were willing to do in stripping powers from the governor’s office in advance of a Democrat taking over I think optimism is a luxury.
As an aside, my personal preference is for each state’s Congressional delegations be chosen by proportion of statewide vote by party, rather than districts that can be rigged. In Georgia, where I live, that would (depending on the apportionment method) likely lead at first to one Libertarian representative. It would take an adjustment period to determine if, say, a Green or American Party (nod to 19th century Know-Nothings) might find purchase. In smaller states coalitions of necessity would prevail, as is currently the case.
As an aside, my personal preference is for each state’s Congressional delegations be chosen by proportion of statewide vote by party, rather than districts that can be rigged. In Georgia, where I live, that would (depending on the apportionment method) likely lead at first to one Libertarian representative. It would take an adjustment period to determine if, say, a Green or American Party (nod to 19th century Know-Nothings) might find purchase. In smaller states coalitions of necessity would prevail, as is currently the case.
Newark cops, with reform, didn’t fire a single shot in 2020
https://www.nj.com/news/2021/01/newark-cops-with-reform-didnt-fire-a-single-shot-in-2020-moran.html
Newark cops, with reform, didn’t fire a single shot in 2020
https://www.nj.com/news/2021/01/newark-cops-with-reform-didnt-fire-a-single-shot-in-2020-moran.html
I think the dividing line here is between people who are willing to be inconvenienced to make sure other people aren’t harmed, and people who consider it to be the other guy’s problem to watch out for themselves. It’s a profound difference in attitude.
Ladies and gentlemen (and GNC people): that’s how you do it. Sigh – back to “style school”.
I think the dividing line here is between people who are willing to be inconvenienced to make sure other people aren’t harmed, and people who consider it to be the other guy’s problem to watch out for themselves. It’s a profound difference in attitude.
Ladies and gentlemen (and GNC people): that’s how you do it. Sigh – back to “style school”.
Oh oh – I didn’t know that people with compromised immune systems may get no protection from the covid vaccine, and maybe others (Marty?) didn’t know either. But it seems there is a solution.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/15/health/coronavirus-vaccine-immune-system.html?action=click&module=Science%20%20Technology&pgtype=Homepage
Oh oh – I didn’t know that people with compromised immune systems may get no protection from the covid vaccine, and maybe others (Marty?) didn’t know either. But it seems there is a solution.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/15/health/coronavirus-vaccine-immune-system.html?action=click&module=Science%20%20Technology&pgtype=Homepage
Icon of the right, fomenting evil
I look forward to the day when a Tucker Carlson viewer hassles me for wearing a mask.
that’s how you do it.
My motto is ‘Steal from the best’.
Icon of the right, fomenting evil
I look forward to the day when a Tucker Carlson viewer hassles me for wearing a mask.
that’s how you do it.
My motto is ‘Steal from the best’.
So, of course rewritten to be as negative as possible.
“I think the dividing line here is between people who are willing to be inconvenienced to make sure other people aren’t harmed, and people who consider it to be the other guy’s problem to watch out for themselves. It’s a profound difference in attitude.”
A matter of degree. Most people here aren’t going to live in a cardboard box and give their money to charity. This is just a line drawn that says if you are willing to be less inconvenienced than I am you are bad.
So, of course rewritten to be as negative as possible.
“I think the dividing line here is between people who are willing to be inconvenienced to make sure other people aren’t harmed, and people who consider it to be the other guy’s problem to watch out for themselves. It’s a profound difference in attitude.”
A matter of degree. Most people here aren’t going to live in a cardboard box and give their money to charity. This is just a line drawn that says if you are willing to be less inconvenienced than I am you are bad.
As an aside, my personal preference is for each state’s Congressional delegations be chosen by proportion of statewide vote by party, rather than districts that can be rigged.
Another system that would make gerrymandering useless, but while retaining districts, is sending the top-two vote-getters from each district to congress, splitting a vote between them in proportion to the numbers of votes they received. Doing so everywhere would of course require house membership to be doubled.
As an aside, my personal preference is for each state’s Congressional delegations be chosen by proportion of statewide vote by party, rather than districts that can be rigged.
Another system that would make gerrymandering useless, but while retaining districts, is sending the top-two vote-getters from each district to congress, splitting a vote between them in proportion to the numbers of votes they received. Doing so everywhere would of course require house membership to be doubled.
Most people here aren’t going to live in a cardboard box and give their money to charity.
That sounds like more than an inconvenience. Rewritten to sound as negative as possible, huh? Words…
Most people here aren’t going to live in a cardboard box and give their money to charity.
That sounds like more than an inconvenience. Rewritten to sound as negative as possible, huh? Words…
So, of course rewritten to be as negative as possible.
No, not re-written, but written, by me, as a statement of how I see it.
Straight up, I do in fact think it’s good to be concerned about other people’s well being, and not good to not be.
And yes, you are correct, it is a matter of degree. There is a limit to the inconvenience I’m willing to take on to help other folks. Wearing a mask in public during a pandemic falls miles within that limit.
I’ll ask the same question I asked above – what do you want out of this discussion? If you’re looking for me to validate the choices you’re making about mask wearing, I’m not going to do that, because I think they are bad choices, that put other people at risk, so that you can go to a bar and hang out.
I think that’s a bad choice. Period.
I don’t expect you to change your behavior. This is blog, we’re talking about stuff, and I’m responding to your post about your own behavior with my own thoughts about it.
If you’re going to complain that people are saying you’re a bad person every time somebody disagrees with what you say or do, you’re gonna spend a lot of time complaining.
Do what you want. Other people will have their own reactions to that, and some of them may even express that. You get to do what you want, they get to do what they want.
As I understand the state of the science, your actions have the potential of putting other people at risk and making the day when *everyone* can get back to normal that much further off. And ‘your actions’ here are basically not wearing a mask in public, which is a pretty trivial thing to be asked to do.
I think that’s irresponsible, and I’m saying I think it’s irresponsible.
You’re an adult, somehow I suspect you can live with me thinking your behavior is irresponsible.
So, of course rewritten to be as negative as possible.
No, not re-written, but written, by me, as a statement of how I see it.
Straight up, I do in fact think it’s good to be concerned about other people’s well being, and not good to not be.
And yes, you are correct, it is a matter of degree. There is a limit to the inconvenience I’m willing to take on to help other folks. Wearing a mask in public during a pandemic falls miles within that limit.
I’ll ask the same question I asked above – what do you want out of this discussion? If you’re looking for me to validate the choices you’re making about mask wearing, I’m not going to do that, because I think they are bad choices, that put other people at risk, so that you can go to a bar and hang out.
I think that’s a bad choice. Period.
I don’t expect you to change your behavior. This is blog, we’re talking about stuff, and I’m responding to your post about your own behavior with my own thoughts about it.
If you’re going to complain that people are saying you’re a bad person every time somebody disagrees with what you say or do, you’re gonna spend a lot of time complaining.
Do what you want. Other people will have their own reactions to that, and some of them may even express that. You get to do what you want, they get to do what they want.
As I understand the state of the science, your actions have the potential of putting other people at risk and making the day when *everyone* can get back to normal that much further off. And ‘your actions’ here are basically not wearing a mask in public, which is a pretty trivial thing to be asked to do.
I think that’s irresponsible, and I’m saying I think it’s irresponsible.
You’re an adult, somehow I suspect you can live with me thinking your behavior is irresponsible.
Funny, I just challenged the basic premise and instead of responding specifically to the challenge you rambled on.
We are all willing to be inconvenienced for the good of others and we all expect others to take responsibility for their own well being.
There isn’t a profound difference in attitude, theere is a difference in where that line gets drawn, and people evaluate risks and opportunities differently.
I actually don’t really care what you think of me in an individual sense. The assumption that where you draw the line in this case is somehow more moral than where I draw it is ok, but not the generalization that somehow those “others”, where you include me, are unwilling to be inconvenienced at all to help others.
Funny, I just challenged the basic premise and instead of responding specifically to the challenge you rambled on.
We are all willing to be inconvenienced for the good of others and we all expect others to take responsibility for their own well being.
There isn’t a profound difference in attitude, theere is a difference in where that line gets drawn, and people evaluate risks and opportunities differently.
I actually don’t really care what you think of me in an individual sense. The assumption that where you draw the line in this case is somehow more moral than where I draw it is ok, but not the generalization that somehow those “others”, where you include me, are unwilling to be inconvenienced at all to help others.
Oh and, my mask wearing is much more nuanced than “You won’t wear a mask in public”. So your rambling is just bs.
Oh and, my mask wearing is much more nuanced than “You won’t wear a mask in public”. So your rambling is just bs.
There isn’t a profound difference in attitude
Yes, I understand that this is the point you are making. Yes, I understand you are challenging the basic premise of my comment.
I disagree with you. I think you and I have profound disagreements in attitude about the obligations that people in a society bear toward each other.
And I think there are value judgements to be made about those differences.
Just like you think my ‘rambling’ is ‘bs’, I think your desire to make it all just shades of gray and matters of degree elides important questions of value.
You’ve made your point, I’ve made mine.
There isn’t a profound difference in attitude
Yes, I understand that this is the point you are making. Yes, I understand you are challenging the basic premise of my comment.
I disagree with you. I think you and I have profound disagreements in attitude about the obligations that people in a society bear toward each other.
And I think there are value judgements to be made about those differences.
Just like you think my ‘rambling’ is ‘bs’, I think your desire to make it all just shades of gray and matters of degree elides important questions of value.
You’ve made your point, I’ve made mine.
There isn’t a profound difference in attitude, theere is a difference in where that line gets drawn, and people evaluate risks and opportunities differently.
If the way you evaluate risks and opportunities is to mostly ignore how your actions are going to affect other people (not saying you’re doing that, Marty), then there is a difference in attitude, not just where the line gets drawn. The attitude is what’s driving where the line is placed, because you can draw it much further in your own narrowly considered favor if you don’t care how you affect other people.
It may even be unwise when self-interest is considered more broadly, because how you affect other people can come back on you (the general “you,” not specifically you, Marty). This pandemic is a great example of that. You infect a bunch of people at your place of work, it has to shut down and ends up going under, and now you have no job.
This isn’t some nihilistic, free-form exercise in subjectivity. There is a reality, and some people are choosing to ignore it at their own peril as well as everyone else’s.
There isn’t a profound difference in attitude, theere is a difference in where that line gets drawn, and people evaluate risks and opportunities differently.
If the way you evaluate risks and opportunities is to mostly ignore how your actions are going to affect other people (not saying you’re doing that, Marty), then there is a difference in attitude, not just where the line gets drawn. The attitude is what’s driving where the line is placed, because you can draw it much further in your own narrowly considered favor if you don’t care how you affect other people.
It may even be unwise when self-interest is considered more broadly, because how you affect other people can come back on you (the general “you,” not specifically you, Marty). This pandemic is a great example of that. You infect a bunch of people at your place of work, it has to shut down and ends up going under, and now you have no job.
This isn’t some nihilistic, free-form exercise in subjectivity. There is a reality, and some people are choosing to ignore it at their own peril as well as everyone else’s.
Meanwhile, the real problem is purported and unspecified ultra-libs objecting to travel restrictions. That’s why over half a million Americans are dead. Both sides!
Meanwhile, the real problem is purported and unspecified ultra-libs objecting to travel restrictions. That’s why over half a million Americans are dead. Both sides!
Meanwhile, the real problem is purported and unspecified ultra-libs objecting to travel restrictions. That’s why over half a million Americans are dead. Both sides!
Doncha love it?
“Ultra libs” have perhaps replaced all those Maoists who used to be to blame for everything.
Meanwhile, the real problem is purported and unspecified ultra-libs objecting to travel restrictions. That’s why over half a million Americans are dead. Both sides!
Doncha love it?
“Ultra libs” have perhaps replaced all those Maoists who used to be to blame for everything.
hsh, I agree that some people choose to ignore it. I think most people I know don’t. So shades of grey.
The hard core “you can’t make me wear a mask” people are a pretty small, though vocal, minority here.
hsh, I agree that some people choose to ignore it. I think most people I know don’t. So shades of grey.
The hard core “you can’t make me wear a mask” people are a pretty small, though vocal, minority here.
it’s the Party of Personal Responsibility, not the Party of Interpersonal Responsibility.
everyone who isn’t me can stuff it. i’ve got pleasure to experience.
it’s the Party of Personal Responsibility, not the Party of Interpersonal Responsibility.
everyone who isn’t me can stuff it. i’ve got pleasure to experience.
The F*cker Carlson thing really gets me. Harass people for wearing masks. Not even “you can’t make me wear a mask,” but “I won’t let you wear a mask.” That’s taking Janie’s freedom-to/freedom-from framework into the 5th dimension.
My 8-year-old will often wear his mask when it’s not really necessary because my wife ordered him one with little pictures of our dog on it. He just likes wearing it. I can only imagine the fury that would be unleashed in me if someone gave him any crap about it. I can feel the heat coming off my body just thinking about it.
The F*cker Carlson thing really gets me. Harass people for wearing masks. Not even “you can’t make me wear a mask,” but “I won’t let you wear a mask.” That’s taking Janie’s freedom-to/freedom-from framework into the 5th dimension.
My 8-year-old will often wear his mask when it’s not really necessary because my wife ordered him one with little pictures of our dog on it. He just likes wearing it. I can only imagine the fury that would be unleashed in me if someone gave him any crap about it. I can feel the heat coming off my body just thinking about it.
I m not responsible if you go to unsafe places. I’m not responsible if you refuse the vaccine.
I am not responsible for you putting yourself in harms way.
Are you responsible if it turns out that you are, in fact, incorrect in thinking that you can’t transfer the virus because you’re vaxed, and you end up giving somebody else the virus?
I understand that in your opinion that risk is microscopically small and is of less weight than your desire to return to life as normal.
So, what if you’re wrong? Where does that fall on the scale of responsibility?
Oopsie?
Oh shit?
OMG I’ve killed somebody?
Does this even seem to you to be a fair question to ask?
I m not responsible if you go to unsafe places. I’m not responsible if you refuse the vaccine.
I am not responsible for you putting yourself in harms way.
Are you responsible if it turns out that you are, in fact, incorrect in thinking that you can’t transfer the virus because you’re vaxed, and you end up giving somebody else the virus?
I understand that in your opinion that risk is microscopically small and is of less weight than your desire to return to life as normal.
So, what if you’re wrong? Where does that fall on the scale of responsibility?
Oopsie?
Oh shit?
OMG I’ve killed somebody?
Does this even seem to you to be a fair question to ask?
“Ultra libs” have perhaps replaced all those Maoists who used to be to blame for everything.
My knowledge of Chinese is less than rudimentary (just two words: Ni hao and Tsingtao, but they’re a good start!)
I have *heard* that Mao is the word for ‘cat’, ignoring differences of tonality.
We’re all Maoists now. I blame the cats.
“Ultra libs” have perhaps replaced all those Maoists who used to be to blame for everything.
My knowledge of Chinese is less than rudimentary (just two words: Ni hao and Tsingtao, but they’re a good start!)
I have *heard* that Mao is the word for ‘cat’, ignoring differences of tonality.
We’re all Maoists now. I blame the cats.
I m not responsible if you go to unsafe places. I’m not responsible if you refuse the vaccine.
I am not responsible for you putting yourself in harms way.
This totally begs the question of who is responsible for *public, shared places.” People who are willing to expose other people to serious illnesses, who won’t take a simple precaution like a mask, are making our shared spaces uninhabitable by significant numbers of people. It matters what spaces we’re talking about, and who it is that’s making them harmful.
You don’t have a “right” to go shooting your gun indiscriminately in a public park. If someone gets hit, *it’s your fault.*
Same with virus exposure.
I m not responsible if you go to unsafe places. I’m not responsible if you refuse the vaccine.
I am not responsible for you putting yourself in harms way.
This totally begs the question of who is responsible for *public, shared places.” People who are willing to expose other people to serious illnesses, who won’t take a simple precaution like a mask, are making our shared spaces uninhabitable by significant numbers of people. It matters what spaces we’re talking about, and who it is that’s making them harmful.
You don’t have a “right” to go shooting your gun indiscriminately in a public park. If someone gets hit, *it’s your fault.*
Same with virus exposure.
instead of responding specifically to the challenge you rambled on.
There was no rambling, on or off. Inconveniently, russell distils the actual reality behind these choices, and these attitudes.
On a different(ish) subject: Marty, did you read that NYT piece about the vaccine not working on people who are immunocompromised? I’m hoping this doesn’t apply to you – FWIW, this is concern for you, not a continuation of the mask/bar conversation.
instead of responding specifically to the challenge you rambled on.
There was no rambling, on or off. Inconveniently, russell distils the actual reality behind these choices, and these attitudes.
On a different(ish) subject: Marty, did you read that NYT piece about the vaccine not working on people who are immunocompromised? I’m hoping this doesn’t apply to you – FWIW, this is concern for you, not a continuation of the mask/bar conversation.
We’re all Maoists now.
Since russell and I have both used a Maoist slogan on this very thread, I would think this is incontrovertible.
We’re all Maoists now.
Since russell and I have both used a Maoist slogan on this very thread, I would think this is incontrovertible.
This I agree with, it matters what place you are talking about.
GftNC, I did get around the payroll to get to read it. I had taken a couple of the drugs mentioned for my RA for short periods and will look for other information on this.
I had discussed the vaccine with my 3 primary doctors, PCP, RA and heart doctor and none had mentioned a concern so I will follow up. Thanks for forwarding that to me.
This I agree with, it matters what place you are talking about.
GftNC, I did get around the payroll to get to read it. I had taken a couple of the drugs mentioned for my RA for short periods and will look for other information on this.
I had discussed the vaccine with my 3 primary doctors, PCP, RA and heart doctor and none had mentioned a concern so I will follow up. Thanks for forwarding that to me.
I’d like to be as clear as I can be about what I’m trying to say here.
I have no doubt that Marty is nuanced in where and when he wears a mask. I have no doubt that he has no desire to pass the virus to anyone, and I’m pretty sure he’d be horrified if he found that he had.
What I’m pushing back on is the idea that we can all make our own personal choices about whether to comply with public health guidelines in the middle of a pandemic. Or, at least, do so, and have those choices respected as simply a matter of personal preference and judgement.
IMO discussing that exposes differences in how people see their obligations towards other people, and also IMO that in turn raises questions of value. Moral or ethical value.
That’s how the question looks to me, so that is why I’m pursuing it along those lines.
It’s not about who is a ‘caring loving person’, or about who is ‘bad’ or ‘good’. It is, to me, a question of how people who share a common public life are obliged to behave toward each other.
I get that there is a limit to mutual obligation, and to the length that we can be expected to go in order to watch out for other people.
It strikes me that not wearing a mask to a bar because your personal assessment of the medical risks tells you it’s OK falls pretty far short of that limit.
So I’m pushing back, on that, specifically.
I’m not really interested in talking about who’s ‘bad’ and who’s ‘good’. Good people do stupid irresponsible things every day.
I’m pushing back on the idea that it’s cool for us all to make our own subjective judgements about whether it’s safe to do stuff that is quite explicitly outside recommended behavior, during a pandemic. And, I’m pushing back on the idea that it’s the other guy’s job to keep themselves out of harm’s way, because in the particular circumstances we’re discussing, the other guy may not be aware that they’re even at risk.
IMO it’s irresponsible to go to a bar unmasked, whether you’re vaxed or not, because you are subsequently going to come into contact with other people who may or may not know how you spent your afternoon, and we don’t know if vaccinated people can transfer the virus. Full stop. We’re all big people here, and I really do think we should all be capable of receiving somebody else’s opinion that some aspect of our behavior is irresponsible.
I’d like to be as clear as I can be about what I’m trying to say here.
I have no doubt that Marty is nuanced in where and when he wears a mask. I have no doubt that he has no desire to pass the virus to anyone, and I’m pretty sure he’d be horrified if he found that he had.
What I’m pushing back on is the idea that we can all make our own personal choices about whether to comply with public health guidelines in the middle of a pandemic. Or, at least, do so, and have those choices respected as simply a matter of personal preference and judgement.
IMO discussing that exposes differences in how people see their obligations towards other people, and also IMO that in turn raises questions of value. Moral or ethical value.
That’s how the question looks to me, so that is why I’m pursuing it along those lines.
It’s not about who is a ‘caring loving person’, or about who is ‘bad’ or ‘good’. It is, to me, a question of how people who share a common public life are obliged to behave toward each other.
I get that there is a limit to mutual obligation, and to the length that we can be expected to go in order to watch out for other people.
It strikes me that not wearing a mask to a bar because your personal assessment of the medical risks tells you it’s OK falls pretty far short of that limit.
So I’m pushing back, on that, specifically.
I’m not really interested in talking about who’s ‘bad’ and who’s ‘good’. Good people do stupid irresponsible things every day.
I’m pushing back on the idea that it’s cool for us all to make our own subjective judgements about whether it’s safe to do stuff that is quite explicitly outside recommended behavior, during a pandemic. And, I’m pushing back on the idea that it’s the other guy’s job to keep themselves out of harm’s way, because in the particular circumstances we’re discussing, the other guy may not be aware that they’re even at risk.
IMO it’s irresponsible to go to a bar unmasked, whether you’re vaxed or not, because you are subsequently going to come into contact with other people who may or may not know how you spent your afternoon, and we don’t know if vaccinated people can transfer the virus. Full stop. We’re all big people here, and I really do think we should all be capable of receiving somebody else’s opinion that some aspect of our behavior is irresponsible.
I did get around the payroll to get to read it. I had taken a couple of the drugs mentioned for my RA for short periods and will look for other information on this.
Good, I’m glad. I hope it turns out not to apply to you, but it’s worth checking.
I did get around the payroll to get to read it. I had taken a couple of the drugs mentioned for my RA for short periods and will look for other information on this.
Good, I’m glad. I hope it turns out not to apply to you, but it’s worth checking.
A matter of degree.
Later: Shades of grey.
Interesting philosophical question: at what point does a difference of degree become a difference in kind?
To take an example without (I hope!) political overtones, consider air pressure. Pressure drops with altitude. Go far enough, and you’ve got hard vacuum. So how high, or at what pressure, do you have “space”?
For some purposes, e.g. most international treaties, we use the Kármán line: 100 km (62 miles) above sea level. But NASA and the US military use 50 miles — fly above that, and you’re officially an astronaut. Then there’s the scientific view (well, some scientists) which looks at the transition between the relatively gentle winds of Earth’s atmosphere and the more violent flows of charged particles in space. According to data from the Supra-Thermal Ion Imager, the edge of space begins at 118km (73 miles) above sea level.
Similarly, perhaps what we have here is a disagreement over a difference in degree becoming a difference in kind when it comes to the risks to which we expose others.
A matter of degree.
Later: Shades of grey.
Interesting philosophical question: at what point does a difference of degree become a difference in kind?
To take an example without (I hope!) political overtones, consider air pressure. Pressure drops with altitude. Go far enough, and you’ve got hard vacuum. So how high, or at what pressure, do you have “space”?
For some purposes, e.g. most international treaties, we use the Kármán line: 100 km (62 miles) above sea level. But NASA and the US military use 50 miles — fly above that, and you’re officially an astronaut. Then there’s the scientific view (well, some scientists) which looks at the transition between the relatively gentle winds of Earth’s atmosphere and the more violent flows of charged particles in space. According to data from the Supra-Thermal Ion Imager, the edge of space begins at 118km (73 miles) above sea level.
Similarly, perhaps what we have here is a disagreement over a difference in degree becoming a difference in kind when it comes to the risks to which we expose others.
I have *heard* that Mao is the word for ‘cat’, ignoring differences of tonality.
We have two cats that take short walks on leashes with us in the evening. These are very popular with the Chinese children in the complex, who follow at a respectful distance and say “mao mao” and wave at Murdercat and The Patchwork Terror.
They have an entourage.
Marty, I remain baffled not by your position, but by your apparent insistence upon finding common cause with the assholes against the commentariat here. I don’t doubt that you show concern for those around you and exercise what you believe is your best judgment. But every time someone here notes public behavior that is literally killing other people in the communities in which that behavior occurs, you immediately try to place yourself somewhere on a continuum with the assholes and start complaining that we are judging you all unfairly.
Hence my earlier question of why it is that you have stronger fellow feelings for the assholes than for the people here with whom you claim to share communal values?
I have *heard* that Mao is the word for ‘cat’, ignoring differences of tonality.
We have two cats that take short walks on leashes with us in the evening. These are very popular with the Chinese children in the complex, who follow at a respectful distance and say “mao mao” and wave at Murdercat and The Patchwork Terror.
They have an entourage.
Marty, I remain baffled not by your position, but by your apparent insistence upon finding common cause with the assholes against the commentariat here. I don’t doubt that you show concern for those around you and exercise what you believe is your best judgment. But every time someone here notes public behavior that is literally killing other people in the communities in which that behavior occurs, you immediately try to place yourself somewhere on a continuum with the assholes and start complaining that we are judging you all unfairly.
Hence my earlier question of why it is that you have stronger fellow feelings for the assholes than for the people here with whom you claim to share communal values?
We have two cats that take short walks on leashes with us in the evening
my wife would love to be able to get our cats to do that. every time she tries, they wiggle out of the harness.
i’d rather they not enjoy the outside. there are coyotes and fox out there.
We have two cats that take short walks on leashes with us in the evening
my wife would love to be able to get our cats to do that. every time she tries, they wiggle out of the harness.
i’d rather they not enjoy the outside. there are coyotes and fox out there.
my wife would love to be able to get our cats to do that. every time she tries, they wiggle out of the harness.
Dogs pull and cats push (with more flexible shoulders). You either have to be very careful not to let your cat back out of the harness, or get a harness designed for a cat. Even then, though, the cat has to want the walk more than they hate the restriction of the harness. Two of our three do. Tinycat will have no part of either the leash, or the big noisy room with no roof.
i’d rather they not enjoy the outside. there are coyotes and fox out there.
We have coyotes and owls all over the neighborhood. The cats never go unescorted, no matter how much The Patchwork Terror complains and makes attempts at the front door latch (thwarted only by the lock, he earned his nickname with his evil mastermind ways).
my wife would love to be able to get our cats to do that. every time she tries, they wiggle out of the harness.
Dogs pull and cats push (with more flexible shoulders). You either have to be very careful not to let your cat back out of the harness, or get a harness designed for a cat. Even then, though, the cat has to want the walk more than they hate the restriction of the harness. Two of our three do. Tinycat will have no part of either the leash, or the big noisy room with no roof.
i’d rather they not enjoy the outside. there are coyotes and fox out there.
We have coyotes and owls all over the neighborhood. The cats never go unescorted, no matter how much The Patchwork Terror complains and makes attempts at the front door latch (thwarted only by the lock, he earned his nickname with his evil mastermind ways).
Icon of the right, fomenting evil
he has Fox News’ highest rated show.
the GOP is a public health hazard that exists only to taunt Democrats.
but by your apparent insistence upon finding common cause with the assholes against the commentariat here
Marty comes here to disagree with liberals. he’s said it before.
Icon of the right, fomenting evil
he has Fox News’ highest rated show.
the GOP is a public health hazard that exists only to taunt Democrats.
but by your apparent insistence upon finding common cause with the assholes against the commentariat here
Marty comes here to disagree with liberals. he’s said it before.
Marty comes here to disagree with liberals. he’s said it before.
Yet he objects if he thinks someone might be hinting that he’s acting like a troll.
Marty comes here to disagree with liberals. he’s said it before.
Yet he objects if he thinks someone might be hinting that he’s acting like a troll.
My take is that if I am a sizable risk we are truly screwed because 100s of millions of people have been told for over a year that a vaccine would allow them to resume life.
Interesting how people understand the statements differently. I always understood them to mean that my life would go back to normal not because I was vaccinated, but because 80% or more of us were vaccinated. It’s starting to look like we won’t get there voluntarily. I’m looking forward to fully-licensed vaccines, because then it’s feasible for vaccination to become mandatory for groups. Eg, universities can mandate students and faculty be vaccinated (like for measles), and hospitals can mandate their staff all be vaccinated.
My take is that if I am a sizable risk we are truly screwed because 100s of millions of people have been told for over a year that a vaccine would allow them to resume life.
Interesting how people understand the statements differently. I always understood them to mean that my life would go back to normal not because I was vaccinated, but because 80% or more of us were vaccinated. It’s starting to look like we won’t get there voluntarily. I’m looking forward to fully-licensed vaccines, because then it’s feasible for vaccination to become mandatory for groups. Eg, universities can mandate students and faculty be vaccinated (like for measles), and hospitals can mandate their staff all be vaccinated.
100s of millions of people have been told for over a year that a vaccine would allow them to resume life
and 100s of millions aren’t going to take it because [Freedom Freeloaders | Carefully Cultivated Confusion | Performative Petulance]. which means we’re never going to get to the point where it’s rare.
it’s going to remain as common as its common-cold cousins because too many people are going to refuse to get the vaccine.
and we can put most of the blame for that directly on Trump and the rest of the GOP. on the other hand, WV is literally paying young people $100 to get vaccinated.
maybe that will be a good place to vacation, eventually. all the other red states can choke on it.
100s of millions of people have been told for over a year that a vaccine would allow them to resume life
and 100s of millions aren’t going to take it because [Freedom Freeloaders | Carefully Cultivated Confusion | Performative Petulance]. which means we’re never going to get to the point where it’s rare.
it’s going to remain as common as its common-cold cousins because too many people are going to refuse to get the vaccine.
and we can put most of the blame for that directly on Trump and the rest of the GOP. on the other hand, WV is literally paying young people $100 to get vaccinated.
maybe that will be a good place to vacation, eventually. all the other red states can choke on it.
How about the rest of you?
Now that my wife and I are both fully vaccinated, I’m going to start going out to lunch one day a week to visit some of the restaurants and brewpubs this city we moved to last year is known for. The wife’s not interested, and I reached “fully” a couple of weeks ago, but I didn’t want to take the risk of somehow bringing Covid home with me until she got there. I’ll still wear my mask at least until they seat me.
How about the rest of you?
Now that my wife and I are both fully vaccinated, I’m going to start going out to lunch one day a week to visit some of the restaurants and brewpubs this city we moved to last year is known for. The wife’s not interested, and I reached “fully” a couple of weeks ago, but I didn’t want to take the risk of somehow bringing Covid home with me until she got there. I’ll still wear my mask at least until they seat me.
WV is literally paying young people $100 to get vaccinated.
Seems like a good plan.
maybe that will be a good place to vacation
I have a very long-time friend who lives at the top of New River Gorge. WV is a very beautiful place, where it hasn’t been FUBARed by coal extraction.
WV is literally paying young people $100 to get vaccinated.
Seems like a good plan.
maybe that will be a good place to vacation
I have a very long-time friend who lives at the top of New River Gorge. WV is a very beautiful place, where it hasn’t been FUBARed by coal extraction.
yes, of course they’re Republicans.
Public. Health. Hazard.
yes, of course they’re Republicans.
Public. Health. Hazard.
Meanwhile, a step forward.
We’ll get there, one way or another.
Meanwhile, a step forward.
We’ll get there, one way or another.
legislation that would forbid mandates requiring people get vaccinated.
Clearly what we need is someone to decide that his religion requires masks, at least until we reach a 95% vaccination rate. At which point, per the Supreme Court, those laws would be unconstitutional. Problem solved.
legislation that would forbid mandates requiring people get vaccinated.
Clearly what we need is someone to decide that his religion requires masks, at least until we reach a 95% vaccination rate. At which point, per the Supreme Court, those laws would be unconstitutional. Problem solved.
Clearly what we need is someone to decide that his religion requires masks, at least until we reach a 95% vaccination rate.
One of the smaller churches I occasionally drive by — Christian by the cross, but no indication of denomination I can see — had a sign up for months that said, “Love your neighbor. Wear a mask.” They have a new sign up now where the mask tagline has been replaced with “Get vaccinated.”
Clearly what we need is someone to decide that his religion requires masks, at least until we reach a 95% vaccination rate.
One of the smaller churches I occasionally drive by — Christian by the cross, but no indication of denomination I can see — had a sign up for months that said, “Love your neighbor. Wear a mask.” They have a new sign up now where the mask tagline has been replaced with “Get vaccinated.”
I’ve been exercising outdoors without a mask through the whole thing. It’s trivially easy to stay very far away from people where I do so. I guess it’s one of those things where it makes messaging too complicated if they try to make distinctions between busy outdoor places where people might regularly and unavoidably come in close contact with others and places where there a very few people around. I’m fully vaccinated now, so I’m within current guidelines, though I never thought I wasn’t before the latest update.
On the other hand, I don’t know that making distinctions between vaccinated and unvaccinated people in public spaces is any less complicated, because people don’t have any way of knowing if others have been vaccinated. I personally don’t care either way as it concerns people wearing masks or not outdoors with a lot of distance between them, but I could see how someone might assume it’s really important that maskless people be fully vaccinated while having no way of knowing if they actually are.
No one has ever said anything to me about not wearing a mask outside, but that might be because I don’t get near anyone.
I’ve been exercising outdoors without a mask through the whole thing. It’s trivially easy to stay very far away from people where I do so. I guess it’s one of those things where it makes messaging too complicated if they try to make distinctions between busy outdoor places where people might regularly and unavoidably come in close contact with others and places where there a very few people around. I’m fully vaccinated now, so I’m within current guidelines, though I never thought I wasn’t before the latest update.
On the other hand, I don’t know that making distinctions between vaccinated and unvaccinated people in public spaces is any less complicated, because people don’t have any way of knowing if others have been vaccinated. I personally don’t care either way as it concerns people wearing masks or not outdoors with a lot of distance between them, but I could see how someone might assume it’s really important that maskless people be fully vaccinated while having no way of knowing if they actually are.
No one has ever said anything to me about not wearing a mask outside, but that might be because I don’t get near anyone.
Walderman:
anyone feelin triggered? that’s what the GOP, and its representatives here, want.
Walderman:
anyone feelin triggered? that’s what the GOP, and its representatives here, want.
Who in their right mind
The pith of the matter.
And the reason being out in public these days triggers (yes) tension and some amount of fear.
I look forward to the day when a Tucker Carlson viewer hassles me for wearing a mask.
Want to be my bodyguard? Both physical and spiritual…?
Who in their right mind
The pith of the matter.
And the reason being out in public these days triggers (yes) tension and some amount of fear.
I look forward to the day when a Tucker Carlson viewer hassles me for wearing a mask.
Want to be my bodyguard? Both physical and spiritual…?
I tend to take the objections to people wearing masks as evidence of a sort of inferiority complex (which may not be the correct terminology as formal psychology goes). It’s “so you think you’re better than me, huh?” underneath the apparent bravado, similar to the way someone might get harassed for, say, wearing business attire in a biker bar. It’s just weird and stupid.
I tend to take the objections to people wearing masks as evidence of a sort of inferiority complex (which may not be the correct terminology as formal psychology goes). It’s “so you think you’re better than me, huh?” underneath the apparent bravado, similar to the way someone might get harassed for, say, wearing business attire in a biker bar. It’s just weird and stupid.
Posted without comment:
Florida private school won’t employ vaccinated teachers.
–TP
Posted without comment:
Florida private school won’t employ vaccinated teachers.
–TP
TP — yes, and the article quotes a parent who can’t get her kid out of there without losing $30,000. In their right minds or not, a lot of these people sure know how to keep the grift going.
TP — yes, and the article quotes a parent who can’t get her kid out of there without losing $30,000. In their right minds or not, a lot of these people sure know how to keep the grift going.
Want to be my bodyguard?
LOL.
My bark is very large, my bite, not so much.
Although I do think “Molon Labe!!” might be a fun response.
🙂
Want to be my bodyguard?
LOL.
My bark is very large, my bite, not so much.
Although I do think “Molon Labe!!” might be a fun response.
🙂
There’s always HIPPA!
There’s always HIPPA!
Want to be my bodyguard?
want to be my long lost pal?
Want to be my bodyguard?
want to be my long lost pal?
Emory and the Atlanta University schools are requiring vaccinations for the fall, Emory for students, AUC for faculty and staff as well. They are private so should be beyond the reach of Gov. Shotgun and the loons in the legislature.
Emory and the Atlanta University schools are requiring vaccinations for the fall, Emory for students, AUC for faculty and staff as well. They are private so should be beyond the reach of Gov. Shotgun and the loons in the legislature.
Has anyone ever seen russell and Chevy Chase in the same room? Just sayin’!
Has anyone ever seen russell and Chevy Chase in the same room? Just sayin’!
Get these mutts away from me
Get these mutts away from me
But Priest, are there religious exceptions?
But Priest, are there religious exceptions?
Not hard to find.
Not hard to find.
Emory students can apply for exemptions for “medical conditions or strong personal objections.” AUC will allow medical or religious exemptions.
Emory students can apply for exemptions for “medical conditions or strong personal objections.” AUC will allow medical or religious exemptions.
Article:
https://www.ajc.com/education/emory-and-atlantas-to-require-students-get-covid-19-vaccine/4M3BJZVT5JFVJC6HVB6VGFX5OI/
Article:
https://www.ajc.com/education/emory-and-atlantas-to-require-students-get-covid-19-vaccine/4M3BJZVT5JFVJC6HVB6VGFX5OI/
My alma mater was the first in the nation. Yes, I’m bragging.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2021/03/26/rutgers-university-first-us-require-covid-vaccine-students/7010077002/
My alma mater was the first in the nation. Yes, I’m bragging.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2021/03/26/rutgers-university-first-us-require-covid-vaccine-students/7010077002/
So, a recall vote in California. Probably cost about a half-billion dollars. Cose to pocket change compared to other things California wast money on.
So, a recall vote in California. Probably cost about a half-billion dollars. Cose to pocket change compared to other things California wast money on.
the “Time’s Up” alarm beep on my microwave is the first note of that riff in Call Me All. the “Cancel” button is the second note.
so every morning when i heat up a bit of cat food from the fridge, i hear those first two notes, which i’ve learned to play in the right time. and then i sing that song all morning long.
the “Time’s Up” alarm beep on my microwave is the first note of that riff in Call Me All. the “Cancel” button is the second note.
so every morning when i heat up a bit of cat food from the fridge, i hear those first two notes, which i’ve learned to play in the right time. and then i sing that song all morning long.
So, a recall vote in California. Probably cost about a half-billion dollars.
If it was being run stand-alone, and based on what administering the 2020 election cost, maybe. Although other estimates are a tenth of that size. Plus, some counties already are running an election in the fall.
Now if you are concerned about how much the candidates are going to spend on the contest, that’s another story
So, a recall vote in California. Probably cost about a half-billion dollars.
If it was being run stand-alone, and based on what administering the 2020 election cost, maybe. Although other estimates are a tenth of that size. Plus, some counties already are running an election in the fall.
Now if you are concerned about how much the candidates are going to spend on the contest, that’s another story
Any problems with Newsom could have been handled in 2022. The recall is just very expensive trolling.
Any problems with Newsom could have been handled in 2022. The recall is just very expensive trolling.
Personally, I didn’t signed the recall petition. But given that it has succeeded, I might well vote to recall Newsome. To my mind, he hasn’t done a particularly good job.
Of course, in part the question is, what alternatives are on offer during the campaign? We, IMHO, got lucky with Arnold last time we did a recall. No guarantee we would get lucky again.
Personally, I didn’t signed the recall petition. But given that it has succeeded, I might well vote to recall Newsome. To my mind, he hasn’t done a particularly good job.
Of course, in part the question is, what alternatives are on offer during the campaign? We, IMHO, got lucky with Arnold last time we did a recall. No guarantee we would get lucky again.
Caitlin Jenner is hoping to play the role of Arnold this time. I’m waiting for Kanye to interrupt a Caitlin presser to announce himself.
Approval aside, I think he’s still got Value Over Replacement Governor on his side. Not sure that any prominent Democrat will step in to mount a serious challenge, which leaves us mostly with reality TV candidates.
Caitlin Jenner is hoping to play the role of Arnold this time. I’m waiting for Kanye to interrupt a Caitlin presser to announce himself.
Approval aside, I think he’s still got Value Over Replacement Governor on his side. Not sure that any prominent Democrat will step in to mount a serious challenge, which leaves us mostly with reality TV candidates.
To put it crudely, Jenner has more balls than Newsom…
To put it crudely, Jenner has more balls than Newsom…
which leaves us mostly with reality TV candidates.
Having watched Newsome since he was mayor of San Francisco, my judgement is that he, too, is just another pretty face. So not that different from the reality TV group. If he has any actual competence at governing, it is pretty well concealed.
which leaves us mostly with reality TV candidates.
Having watched Newsome since he was mayor of San Francisco, my judgement is that he, too, is just another pretty face. So not that different from the reality TV group. If he has any actual competence at governing, it is pretty well concealed.
Perhaps he can take his pretty face and become an actor. Give some balance to actors becoming governor.
Perhaps he can take his pretty face and become an actor. Give some balance to actors becoming governor.
With any luck, the whole EUA issue with the Covid vaccines — that is, private universities requiring students to accept a vaccine that is officially classed “experimental” — will be mooted soon. Still, neither Pfizer nor Moderna have filed an application for a full license, and the FDA’s supply chain and manufacture inspection process before a license is issued averages about six months. I believe all the universities are on safe ground requiring vaccinations for semesters/quarters starting in January. Earlier than that, I think they’re counting on the courts allowing them to dismiss students’ “It’s not a licensed vaccine,” argument. And it’s almost guaranteed some students will take that to court.
With any luck, the whole EUA issue with the Covid vaccines — that is, private universities requiring students to accept a vaccine that is officially classed “experimental” — will be mooted soon. Still, neither Pfizer nor Moderna have filed an application for a full license, and the FDA’s supply chain and manufacture inspection process before a license is issued averages about six months. I believe all the universities are on safe ground requiring vaccinations for semesters/quarters starting in January. Earlier than that, I think they’re counting on the courts allowing them to dismiss students’ “It’s not a licensed vaccine,” argument. And it’s almost guaranteed some students will take that to court.
Call Me All? Is that Cannibal Corpse?
Call Me All? Is that Cannibal Corpse?
And it’s almost guaranteed some students will take that to court.
Why bother if there’s a “strong objections” exemption? I would think Emory put that in there in part precisely so they don’t have to bother answering lawsuits.
I quoted Emory’s language earlier, but here’s the AUCC language: “AUCC schools are developing processes by which exemptions from vaccination will be considered. These processes may vary by institution.”
Also, I wonder how any lawsuits would go if the schools just said: get vaccinated if you want to be on campus, otherwise you can still take your classes but it will be online.
And it’s almost guaranteed some students will take that to court.
Why bother if there’s a “strong objections” exemption? I would think Emory put that in there in part precisely so they don’t have to bother answering lawsuits.
I quoted Emory’s language earlier, but here’s the AUCC language: “AUCC schools are developing processes by which exemptions from vaccination will be considered. These processes may vary by institution.”
Also, I wonder how any lawsuits would go if the schools just said: get vaccinated if you want to be on campus, otherwise you can still take your classes but it will be online.
Probably cost about a half-billion dollars.
Newsom and the Democratic-controlled legislature have already passed legislation making it an all-mail election*. (a) Those tend to be relatively inexpensive to conduct. (b) Those tend to offset the usual turnout advantage of the special interest group in an oddly-timed election.
* The probability that CA will ever use something other than full vote by mail is approaching zero.
Probably cost about a half-billion dollars.
Newsom and the Democratic-controlled legislature have already passed legislation making it an all-mail election*. (a) Those tend to be relatively inexpensive to conduct. (b) Those tend to offset the usual turnout advantage of the special interest group in an oddly-timed election.
* The probability that CA will ever use something other than full vote by mail is approaching zero.
Why bother if there’s a “strong objections” exemption?
That’s Emory. The others that have been mentioned in recent comments — AUC and Rutgers — have only medical and established religious exceptions. The U of California system, that got a lot of play in the press earlier through sheer size, is explicit: their Covid mandate only comes into force if there’s a licensed vaccine. In my own state, neither public nor private schools are attempting a mandate. What they promise is that if you show up vaccinated in the fall, they will exempt you from any other sort of testing they might have imposed to get on campus. Say, daily temperature check-in and every other week nasal swab.
Why bother if there’s a “strong objections” exemption?
That’s Emory. The others that have been mentioned in recent comments — AUC and Rutgers — have only medical and established religious exceptions. The U of California system, that got a lot of play in the press earlier through sheer size, is explicit: their Covid mandate only comes into force if there’s a licensed vaccine. In my own state, neither public nor private schools are attempting a mandate. What they promise is that if you show up vaccinated in the fall, they will exempt you from any other sort of testing they might have imposed to get on campus. Say, daily temperature check-in and every other week nasal swab.
Having watched Newsome since he was mayor of San Francisco, my judgement is that he, too, is just another pretty face. So not that different from the reality TV group. If he has any actual competence at governing, it is pretty well concealed.
And if he is still relatively unpopular at the end of his term (assuming he survives the recall election) we’ll see who Southern California Dems musters to challenge him. He hasn’t earned a pass yet.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Dwayne Johnson decided to give a run for governor a go, but I also expect he might be waiting for the pandemic to blow over before dipping a toe in politics.
Having watched Newsome since he was mayor of San Francisco, my judgement is that he, too, is just another pretty face. So not that different from the reality TV group. If he has any actual competence at governing, it is pretty well concealed.
And if he is still relatively unpopular at the end of his term (assuming he survives the recall election) we’ll see who Southern California Dems musters to challenge him. He hasn’t earned a pass yet.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Dwayne Johnson decided to give a run for governor a go, but I also expect he might be waiting for the pandemic to blow over before dipping a toe in politics.
Also, I wonder how any lawsuits would go if the schools just said: get vaccinated if you want to be on campus, otherwise you can still take your classes but it will be online.
It’s been many years, but there’s not a chance some of my senior or graduate classes could have been conducted online and provided the same value.
Consider the afternoon that the professor and I argued a point down the length of the white boards, him with the black marker and me with the red, to the edification and entertainment of the other graduate students. That hour was what I paid a semester’s tuition for. (When the bell rang, and the other students left, he said, “That was fun. Let me buy you a beer.”)
Later in my career, I expended a lot of time and energy on working out how to reproduce that experience over the internet. Trust me when I say that no typical graduate student could afford the kind of specialized i/o devices needed, even today.
Any requirement that I take an experimental drug, or forfeit a large part of the value of the class, best come with a huge tuition discount offer if I decline the drug. As soon as it’s a licensed vaccine, I’ll drop this entire argument.
Also, I wonder how any lawsuits would go if the schools just said: get vaccinated if you want to be on campus, otherwise you can still take your classes but it will be online.
It’s been many years, but there’s not a chance some of my senior or graduate classes could have been conducted online and provided the same value.
Consider the afternoon that the professor and I argued a point down the length of the white boards, him with the black marker and me with the red, to the edification and entertainment of the other graduate students. That hour was what I paid a semester’s tuition for. (When the bell rang, and the other students left, he said, “That was fun. Let me buy you a beer.”)
Later in my career, I expended a lot of time and energy on working out how to reproduce that experience over the internet. Trust me when I say that no typical graduate student could afford the kind of specialized i/o devices needed, even today.
Any requirement that I take an experimental drug, or forfeit a large part of the value of the class, best come with a huge tuition discount offer if I decline the drug. As soon as it’s a licensed vaccine, I’ll drop this entire argument.
I guess I didn’t realize the vaccines were still considered experimental.
I guess I didn’t realize the vaccines were still considered experimental.
Russell — you’ve probably looked it up if you care, but this page explains the current level of approval for the COVID vaccines.
Another article.
Russell — you’ve probably looked it up if you care, but this page explains the current level of approval for the COVID vaccines.
Another article.
It’s a really, really, really, really big experiment.
It’s a really, really, really, really big experiment.
the “it’s experimental!” line is, of course, commonly used as an excuse by anti-vax freeriders who want everyone else to keep them safe.
the “it’s experimental!” line is, of course, commonly used as an excuse by anti-vax freeriders who want everyone else to keep them safe.
anti-vax freeriders who want everyone else to keep them safe.
Some of the anti-vaxxers aren’t quite freeriders. They’re just too stupid to understand vaccines are safe and effective. Or, in some cases, to acknowledge that various infectious diseases were NOT “dying out” before vaccines came along.
anti-vax freeriders who want everyone else to keep them safe.
Some of the anti-vaxxers aren’t quite freeriders. They’re just too stupid to understand vaccines are safe and effective. Or, in some cases, to acknowledge that various infectious diseases were NOT “dying out” before vaccines came along.
OT: Where is the point at which the likes of Fox News and the NY Post have no credibility? I mean outside of the sort of audience that believes in QAnon- and Alex Jones-level BS. Or is that audience large enough that credibility is an obsolete concept?
OT: Where is the point at which the likes of Fox News and the NY Post have no credibility? I mean outside of the sort of audience that believes in QAnon- and Alex Jones-level BS. Or is that audience large enough that credibility is an obsolete concept?
Where is the point at which the likes of Fox News and the NY Post have no credibility?
Where they say Biden won the election?
I mean, you answered your own question. You can’t ask about credibility without adding with whom.
Where is the point at which the likes of Fox News and the NY Post have no credibility?
Where they say Biden won the election?
I mean, you answered your own question. You can’t ask about credibility without adding with whom.
I am not familiar enough with the NY Post to know about it. It’s long been in the tabloid class, but how that plays out in practice, I have no idea.
My sense is that Fox has a split personality. Their prime time has zero credibility, and has been that way for years, possibly even from day one.
It seems that the actual news organization is not too bad. Albeit unable to keep up with correcting the volume of garbage that the commenters spew out.
I am not familiar enough with the NY Post to know about it. It’s long been in the tabloid class, but how that plays out in practice, I have no idea.
My sense is that Fox has a split personality. Their prime time has zero credibility, and has been that way for years, possibly even from day one.
It seems that the actual news organization is not too bad. Albeit unable to keep up with correcting the volume of garbage that the commenters spew out.
A NY Post reporter just resigned because, according to her statements, she got ordered to knowingly write a false front page story.
https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/reporter-behind-bogus-kamala-harris-story-quits-makes-striking-claim-n1265597
A NY Post reporter just resigned because, according to her statements, she got ordered to knowingly write a false front page story.
https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/reporter-behind-bogus-kamala-harris-story-quits-makes-striking-claim-n1265597
ok, so it’s not just conservatives who are working for COVID19. there’s also the free-floating miasma of idiocy named Joe Rogan.
ok, so it’s not just conservatives who are working for COVID19. there’s also the free-floating miasma of idiocy named Joe Rogan.
OT: Where is the point at which the likes of Fox News and the NY Post have no credibility?
they’re not trying to tell people about reality. they’re trying to keep people from knowing reality. instead of facts, they provide feelings: fear, loathing and outrage.
gotta keep the audience enraged and engaged. keep the scam afloat.
OT: Where is the point at which the likes of Fox News and the NY Post have no credibility?
they’re not trying to tell people about reality. they’re trying to keep people from knowing reality. instead of facts, they provide feelings: fear, loathing and outrage.
gotta keep the audience enraged and engaged. keep the scam afloat.
It’s a really, really, really, really big experiment.
And it’s going really, really, really well. I got my vaccinations as soon as I was eligible. I encourage everyone I know who doesn’t have a medical reason to get vaccinated. If paying people a la West Virginia is what it takes to get people vaccinated, I support paying them.
I also acknowledge the formal clinical studies have not been finished, the manufacturing process is not being subjected to the usual inspection regime, there are obscure international intellectual property issues that are not resolved, and that it has not been approved. That last one puts mandates on questionable legal footing. Even the Pentagon thinks so, and they vaccinate their people for a huge range of things.
It’s a really, really, really, really big experiment.
And it’s going really, really, really well. I got my vaccinations as soon as I was eligible. I encourage everyone I know who doesn’t have a medical reason to get vaccinated. If paying people a la West Virginia is what it takes to get people vaccinated, I support paying them.
I also acknowledge the formal clinical studies have not been finished, the manufacturing process is not being subjected to the usual inspection regime, there are obscure international intellectual property issues that are not resolved, and that it has not been approved. That last one puts mandates on questionable legal footing. Even the Pentagon thinks so, and they vaccinate their people for a huge range of things.
Maybe another less-absolute way of posing the credibility question: What will it take for their credibility to diminish significantly? Or when does it take a big enough hit that they feel it and are chastened by it? Again, maybe the audience that doesn’t care about being lied to is big enough that the question is moot.
Maybe another less-absolute way of posing the credibility question: What will it take for their credibility to diminish significantly? Or when does it take a big enough hit that they feel it and are chastened by it? Again, maybe the audience that doesn’t care about being lied to is big enough that the question is moot.
What will it take for their credibility to diminish significantly? Or when does it take a big enough hit that they feel it and are chastened by it?
I look at the fake religions which give a hard date for the end of the world. And, when it doesn’t happen, give a new hard date. Over and over and over again. And yet, keep their flock going the whole time — no matter that they keep being wrong. Leads me to suspect that credulousness is unlimited.
What it will take is advertisers deciding that it is no longer worthwhile to advertise there. Cut them off at the bank. Not sure there is a path to that happening.
What will it take for their credibility to diminish significantly? Or when does it take a big enough hit that they feel it and are chastened by it?
I look at the fake religions which give a hard date for the end of the world. And, when it doesn’t happen, give a new hard date. Over and over and over again. And yet, keep their flock going the whole time — no matter that they keep being wrong. Leads me to suspect that credulousness is unlimited.
What it will take is advertisers deciding that it is no longer worthwhile to advertise there. Cut them off at the bank. Not sure there is a path to that happening.
Where is the point at which the likes of Fox News and the NY Post have no credibility?
From my point of view, none of the media has much credibility. Even for the ones, like the New York Times, which still do good journalism. You don’t know when they’re going to spring some completely off-the-wall nonsense on you.
Where is the point at which the likes of Fox News and the NY Post have no credibility?
From my point of view, none of the media has much credibility. Even for the ones, like the New York Times, which still do good journalism. You don’t know when they’re going to spring some completely off-the-wall nonsense on you.
maybe if wildly overestimated their ability to shape their audience’s opinion on something really big, like a war. if Fox News mgmt decided they needed a war and went all-in on convincing the audience but the audience ultimately just wasn’t into it, that could turn people off.
other than that. i dunno. they’re pretty good at knowing how to keep their mythical narrative close enough to reality that the audience is comfortable with the occasional deviations.
maybe if wildly overestimated their ability to shape their audience’s opinion on something really big, like a war. if Fox News mgmt decided they needed a war and went all-in on convincing the audience but the audience ultimately just wasn’t into it, that could turn people off.
other than that. i dunno. they’re pretty good at knowing how to keep their mythical narrative close enough to reality that the audience is comfortable with the occasional deviations.
I look at the fake religions which give a hard date for the end of the world.
Like the secular religion that says the world is going to end in 12 years due to climate change?… 🙂
I look at the fake religions which give a hard date for the end of the world.
Like the secular religion that says the world is going to end in 12 years due to climate change?… 🙂
What it will take is advertisers deciding that it is no longer worthwhile to advertise there. Cut them off at the bank. Not sure there is a path to that happening.
I read somewhere that advertising is only a small portion of their revenue. The rest is from cable fees, which they get from bundled channels — even from people who hate them. And the contracts under which this is happening are longish-term.
What it will take is advertisers deciding that it is no longer worthwhile to advertise there. Cut them off at the bank. Not sure there is a path to that happening.
I read somewhere that advertising is only a small portion of their revenue. The rest is from cable fees, which they get from bundled channels — even from people who hate them. And the contracts under which this is happening are longish-term.
Most of the climate change predictions I’ve seen (admittedly I haven’t made an exhaustive survey) say that, at the rate we are going, the climate will change drastically. Which will have impacts, many of them negative, on people. The time to make changes to avoid some of the worst of those is limited.
But if anyone has actually predicted to world will end, I’ve missed that. No doubt you’ve got a Reason link which will purport to support such a thing….
Most of the climate change predictions I’ve seen (admittedly I haven’t made an exhaustive survey) say that, at the rate we are going, the climate will change drastically. Which will have impacts, many of them negative, on people. The time to make changes to avoid some of the worst of those is limited.
But if anyone has actually predicted to world will end, I’ve missed that. No doubt you’ve got a Reason link which will purport to support such a thing….
the world is going to end in 12 years due to climate change
2035 is often cited as the point of no return.
prove the scientists wrong, if you have the data.
the world is going to end in 12 years due to climate change
2035 is often cited as the point of no return.
prove the scientists wrong, if you have the data.
There is always the option of high enough particulate air pollution and, if need be, nuclear winter. We could also invest in research on how to trigger dormant volcanoes. So, we are perfectly free to go for a different point of no return.
There is always the option of high enough particulate air pollution and, if need be, nuclear winter. We could also invest in research on how to trigger dormant volcanoes. So, we are perfectly free to go for a different point of no return.
Most of the climate change predictions I’ve seen (admittedly I haven’t made an exhaustive survey) say that, at the rate we are going, the climate will change drastically.
2035 is often cited as the point of no return.
This is not what the IPCC is saying. Are they lying?
But if anyone has actually predicted to world will end, I’ve missed that.
Not a Reason article.
“Ocasio-Cortez called the fight to mitigate the effects of climate change her generation’s “World War II.”
“Millennials and Gen Z and all these folks that come after us are looking up, and we’re like, ‘The world is going to end in 12 years if we don’t address climate change, and your biggest issue is how are we gonna pay for it?’ ” she said.”
‘The world is going to end in 12 years if we don’t address climate change,’ Ocasio-Cortez says
Most of the climate change predictions I’ve seen (admittedly I haven’t made an exhaustive survey) say that, at the rate we are going, the climate will change drastically.
2035 is often cited as the point of no return.
This is not what the IPCC is saying. Are they lying?
But if anyone has actually predicted to world will end, I’ve missed that.
Not a Reason article.
“Ocasio-Cortez called the fight to mitigate the effects of climate change her generation’s “World War II.”
“Millennials and Gen Z and all these folks that come after us are looking up, and we’re like, ‘The world is going to end in 12 years if we don’t address climate change, and your biggest issue is how are we gonna pay for it?’ ” she said.”
‘The world is going to end in 12 years if we don’t address climate change,’ Ocasio-Cortez says
Charles makes a joke, and down the rabbit hole we go. Let’s just agree that AGW/CC isn’t a hoax, okay?
I recalled John Stewart’s long, in-depth, face-to-face, on-camera evisceration of Jim Cramer those many years ago, noting that I don’t think it made a noticeable bump in Cramer’s still-continuing career. Nothing matters.
Charles makes a joke, and down the rabbit hole we go. Let’s just agree that AGW/CC isn’t a hoax, okay?
I recalled John Stewart’s long, in-depth, face-to-face, on-camera evisceration of Jim Cramer those many years ago, noting that I don’t think it made a noticeable bump in Cramer’s still-continuing career. Nothing matters.
will not chase.
hey look! Rudy G got raided!
will not chase.
hey look! Rudy G got raided!
Toensing as well.
Round ‘em up!
Toensing as well.
Round ‘em up!
“Let’s just agree that AGW/CC isn’t a hoax, okay?”
Okay
“Let’s just agree that AGW/CC isn’t a hoax, okay?”
Okay
Random thought time:
Rudy is Trump’s lawyer.
Robert Costello is Rudy’s lawyer (also Bannon’s lawyer).
Does Costello also have a lawyer?
I wonder what the world record is for the length of a lawyer-of-a-lawyer-of-a-lawyer-of-a-lawyer chain?
Maybe, in the end, it’s lawyers all the way down. Or, at least, in DC.
Random thought time:
Rudy is Trump’s lawyer.
Robert Costello is Rudy’s lawyer (also Bannon’s lawyer).
Does Costello also have a lawyer?
I wonder what the world record is for the length of a lawyer-of-a-lawyer-of-a-lawyer-of-a-lawyer chain?
Maybe, in the end, it’s lawyers all the way down. Or, at least, in DC.
Too bad Clickbait isn’t a lawyer, you could have the Worm Ouroboros swallowing its own tail.
Too bad Clickbait isn’t a lawyer, you could have the Worm Ouroboros swallowing its own tail.
How many lawyers does it take to change a light bulb after walking into a bar?
How many lawyers does it take to change a light bulb after walking into a bar?
Change a light bulb? Bah! They’ll just send a Cease & Desist letter to the darkness…
Change a light bulb? Bah! They’ll just send a Cease & Desist letter to the darkness…
maybe the DOJ can open a special wing for Trump’s jailed employees/attorneys/cronies
maybe the DOJ can open a special wing for Trump’s jailed employees/attorneys/cronies
maybe the DOJ can open a special wing for Trump’s jailed employees/attorneys/cronies
Doesn’t need to be Maximum Security, because these bozos are too incompetent to pull off an escape. But maximum unpleasant would be good. Maybe fold in some sex trafficers, rapists, and child molesters, just to make it more homey for the Trumpistas.
maybe the DOJ can open a special wing for Trump’s jailed employees/attorneys/cronies
Doesn’t need to be Maximum Security, because these bozos are too incompetent to pull off an escape. But maximum unpleasant would be good. Maybe fold in some sex trafficers, rapists, and child molesters, just to make it more homey for the Trumpistas.
Round ‘em up!
On my current playlist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-HPqS2YrZc
Round ‘em up!
On my current playlist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-HPqS2YrZc
I hear that the Jeffrey Epstein Jail Suite is available and luxurious, in case Trump and his cronies need to “hang out” for a while.
I hear that the Jeffrey Epstein Jail Suite is available and luxurious, in case Trump and his cronies need to “hang out” for a while.
Just take their money. They’ll think they’re in hell.
Just take their money. They’ll think they’re in hell.
In a reversal, the University of Colorado and Colorado State University systems have announced that they will require students and faculty to be vaccinated for the fall term. Official language for the policy — ie, will there be a personal choice exemption in addition to the obvious medical and religious ones — has not been released yet.
In a reversal, the University of Colorado and Colorado State University systems have announced that they will require students and faculty to be vaccinated for the fall term. Official language for the policy — ie, will there be a personal choice exemption in addition to the obvious medical and religious ones — has not been released yet.
How is it a requirement if one can choose not to comply with it?
How is it a requirement if one can choose not to comply with it?
How is it a requirement if one can choose not to comply with it?
Perhaps because the authors are unaccustomed to calling something an “expectation”?
Or maybe they hope that calling it a “requirement” will discourage non-compliance — if you have to actually file paperwork, however minimal and pro forma, to get an exception, fewer students will fail to comply.
How is it a requirement if one can choose not to comply with it?
Perhaps because the authors are unaccustomed to calling something an “expectation”?
Or maybe they hope that calling it a “requirement” will discourage non-compliance — if you have to actually file paperwork, however minimal and pro forma, to get an exception, fewer students will fail to comply.
I don’t think it’s a matter of being unaccustomed. Calling it a requirement, even if it isn’t really one, is intended to get as many people to comply by making them think it’s a requirement. Some people will just do it. Some of those people might not if the language was “strongly encouraged” rather than “required.” The more people who are vaccinated, the less chance that a major outbreak will occur, so they’re using language to maximize vaccination. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
I don’t think it’s a matter of being unaccustomed. Calling it a requirement, even if it isn’t really one, is intended to get as many people to comply by making them think it’s a requirement. Some people will just do it. Some of those people might not if the language was “strongly encouraged” rather than “required.” The more people who are vaccinated, the less chance that a major outbreak will occur, so they’re using language to maximize vaccination. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
“required otherwise you have to fill out this short, trivial, form” caused quite a ruckus when it was RW christianists that didn’t want to pay for birth control as “required” by the ACA.
Of course THEY were tots lying assholes, the UC students are more likely to just be lazy.
“required otherwise you have to fill out this short, trivial, form” caused quite a ruckus when it was RW christianists that didn’t want to pay for birth control as “required” by the ACA.
Of course THEY were tots lying assholes, the UC students are more likely to just be lazy.
Or maybe they hope that calling it a “requirement” will discourage non-compliance…
Somewhere down in the details, once the policies are actually committed to paper, it will be a requirement: students must do one from a list of things, all of which require submitting information, or be banned from campus. This isn’t even hard: most colleges and universities already do it for the usual childhood vaccinations. The last time I was in graduate school I had to submit a birth certificate (or one of a short list of other documents) to verify that I was old enough I didn’t have to show any vaccination records. They may not actually be able to catch you if you sneak onto campus, but they can make your presence largely a waste of effort.
My point about the policies is that they’ve never tried this with an unlicensed vaccine, the courts may not allow that, and we may hit the beginning of the school year with no licensed vaccines available.
Or maybe they hope that calling it a “requirement” will discourage non-compliance…
Somewhere down in the details, once the policies are actually committed to paper, it will be a requirement: students must do one from a list of things, all of which require submitting information, or be banned from campus. This isn’t even hard: most colleges and universities already do it for the usual childhood vaccinations. The last time I was in graduate school I had to submit a birth certificate (or one of a short list of other documents) to verify that I was old enough I didn’t have to show any vaccination records. They may not actually be able to catch you if you sneak onto campus, but they can make your presence largely a waste of effort.
My point about the policies is that they’ve never tried this with an unlicensed vaccine, the courts may not allow that, and we may hit the beginning of the school year with no licensed vaccines available.
they’ve never tried this with an unlicensed vaccine, the courts may not allow that
Or, since the vaccines clearly have an exception from the licensing requirements, the courts may feel that said exception is sufficient for this as well.
they’ve never tried this with an unlicensed vaccine, the courts may not allow that
Or, since the vaccines clearly have an exception from the licensing requirements, the courts may feel that said exception is sufficient for this as well.
Or, since the vaccines clearly have an exception from the licensing requirements, the courts may feel that said exception is sufficient for this as well.
Temporary exception. There are any number of reasons why the FDA could be put in a position where the EUAs would have to be revoked. Among those reasons are the drug companies not applying for full licensing in a timely fashion. Why wouldn’t Pfizer or Moderna file for a license? Pfizer might think they need to solve the -70 °C storage thing first. Moderna is, I believe, still dealing with court issues in multiple countries regarding whether their use of particular lipid nanoparticles is legal.
Pay every student who has a full vaccination card before the fall term starts $500. They’ll get the 90-95% of students they need.
Or, since the vaccines clearly have an exception from the licensing requirements, the courts may feel that said exception is sufficient for this as well.
Temporary exception. There are any number of reasons why the FDA could be put in a position where the EUAs would have to be revoked. Among those reasons are the drug companies not applying for full licensing in a timely fashion. Why wouldn’t Pfizer or Moderna file for a license? Pfizer might think they need to solve the -70 °C storage thing first. Moderna is, I believe, still dealing with court issues in multiple countries regarding whether their use of particular lipid nanoparticles is legal.
Pay every student who has a full vaccination card before the fall term starts $500. They’ll get the 90-95% of students they need.
Keep in mind, though, that these university decisions are extremely complex. The universities are under pressure from parents and students that don’t want to pay full tuition for Zoom-only classes. The students who are required to be in-person for their intrinsically embodied studies (music, dance, practical medical, etc.), and student athletes require service workers who have unions and whose members have their own safety concerns. Tenured senate faculty have their own representation and their own particular concerns. Graduate students who teach have either student organizations or unions that blend the concerns of faculty and students. And there is a huge contingent of adjunct faculty who may or may not have collective representation and who may or may not have health coverage who are being told that they must be prepared to teach in crowded classrooms with student who may not have been vaccinated, while also being told they will have to make their courses available to student who are not able to attend in-person (which usually results in additional, uncompensated labor and often requires additional out-of-pocket costs to meet the technological demands of online teaching).
So far it seems that most colleges and universities have been responding ad-hoc to the challenges, leaving all the affected parties to follow along as best they can, and the various groups have all been demanding some say in the decision making process to ensure that their needs are not going unheard and unrepresented.
It’s taken over a year, but it seems the larger institutions are finally starting to pull together coalitions of all the represented parties to try to find a collective solution that is at least minimally acceptable to everyone who is essential to the educational process.
If you aren’t listening to all the groups, though, you don’t have a clear enough idea of the context to propose an effective solution. Most people want to be back in the classroom as soon as that is safely possible. But safe is also costly and complicated, and that’s a hard situation when so many are already feeling financial pressure.
Keep in mind, though, that these university decisions are extremely complex. The universities are under pressure from parents and students that don’t want to pay full tuition for Zoom-only classes. The students who are required to be in-person for their intrinsically embodied studies (music, dance, practical medical, etc.), and student athletes require service workers who have unions and whose members have their own safety concerns. Tenured senate faculty have their own representation and their own particular concerns. Graduate students who teach have either student organizations or unions that blend the concerns of faculty and students. And there is a huge contingent of adjunct faculty who may or may not have collective representation and who may or may not have health coverage who are being told that they must be prepared to teach in crowded classrooms with student who may not have been vaccinated, while also being told they will have to make their courses available to student who are not able to attend in-person (which usually results in additional, uncompensated labor and often requires additional out-of-pocket costs to meet the technological demands of online teaching).
So far it seems that most colleges and universities have been responding ad-hoc to the challenges, leaving all the affected parties to follow along as best they can, and the various groups have all been demanding some say in the decision making process to ensure that their needs are not going unheard and unrepresented.
It’s taken over a year, but it seems the larger institutions are finally starting to pull together coalitions of all the represented parties to try to find a collective solution that is at least minimally acceptable to everyone who is essential to the educational process.
If you aren’t listening to all the groups, though, you don’t have a clear enough idea of the context to propose an effective solution. Most people want to be back in the classroom as soon as that is safely possible. But safe is also costly and complicated, and that’s a hard situation when so many are already feeling financial pressure.
interesting article
interesting article
You can bet money that the University of California and other big institutions of higher education are aware of these statuses and using that info to plan their approach to teaching next academic year.
You can bet money that the University of California and other big institutions of higher education are aware of these statuses and using that info to plan their approach to teaching next academic year.
If full approval makes workplace mandates a greater possibility, it can’t come fast enough AFAIAC. Some people are going to need a bigger push. I don’t want to hear about freedom or liberty from the usual suspects who see employment as a purely voluntary contractual agreement between equal parties. Don’t like that conditions of employment? You’re free to find another place to work.
If full approval makes workplace mandates a greater possibility, it can’t come fast enough AFAIAC. Some people are going to need a bigger push. I don’t want to hear about freedom or liberty from the usual suspects who see employment as a purely voluntary contractual agreement between equal parties. Don’t like that conditions of employment? You’re free to find another place to work.
here’s your daily dose of Fuck The GOP.
Local GOP publishes the arrest records of everyone related to Andrew Brown, the guy killed by police in Elizabeth City NC.
because, the Rule Of Law party is actually a bunch of fascist bootlickers who think summary execution is OK for the right kind of people.
here’s your daily dose of Fuck The GOP.
Local GOP publishes the arrest records of everyone related to Andrew Brown, the guy killed by police in Elizabeth City NC.
because, the Rule Of Law party is actually a bunch of fascist bootlickers who think summary execution is OK for the right kind of people.
OT but I just got back from an appointment, which means I had a bit of time in the car with the radio on.
Simultaneously with hearing an R congressman whining about bipartisanship, I drove by a house with a “Clickbait 2024 – TAKE AMERICAN BACK AGAIN” sign in the front yard.
No one in the party of Mitch McConnell has any right to whine about bipartisanship for at least a century. But they do and will, enabled and egged on by the punditry, who love what they think is a clever gotcha, or a jag of both-sideserism, more than anything on earth.
As for anyone who thinks America is theirs to “take back” … ah, never mind.
OT but I just got back from an appointment, which means I had a bit of time in the car with the radio on.
Simultaneously with hearing an R congressman whining about bipartisanship, I drove by a house with a “Clickbait 2024 – TAKE AMERICAN BACK AGAIN” sign in the front yard.
No one in the party of Mitch McConnell has any right to whine about bipartisanship for at least a century. But they do and will, enabled and egged on by the punditry, who love what they think is a clever gotcha, or a jag of both-sideserism, more than anything on earth.
As for anyone who thinks America is theirs to “take back” … ah, never mind.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Clickbait was serving time by 2024. I’m probably biased in favor of believing in that possibility, but what’s a little bias between friends?
I wouldn’t be surprised if Clickbait was serving time by 2024. I’m probably biased in favor of believing in that possibility, but what’s a little bias between friends?
hsh — I’d settled for that. Or else he’s so addled by 2024 they can no longer hide it.*
But I suspect his ability to perform before an adoring audience will be the last thing to go…just as I optimistically assume that my ability to do sudoku will be the last thing to go. As in, I tell my kids that when I’m misbehaving in the nursing home, they should just give me puzzles and I’ll quiet down.
Optimistic, I know, but what’s a little bias between friends?
*PS: not that I imagine his rabid cult following would be able to tell the difference.
hsh — I’d settled for that. Or else he’s so addled by 2024 they can no longer hide it.*
But I suspect his ability to perform before an adoring audience will be the last thing to go…just as I optimistically assume that my ability to do sudoku will be the last thing to go. As in, I tell my kids that when I’m misbehaving in the nursing home, they should just give me puzzles and I’ll quiet down.
Optimistic, I know, but what’s a little bias between friends?
*PS: not that I imagine his rabid cult following would be able to tell the difference.
Or else he’s so addled by 2024 they can no longer hide it.*
Objectively, he’s already there. And has been for some time.
One of the definitions of legal insanity is that the person “cannot distinguish fantasy from reality”. Sounds like Clickbait in spades.
Or else he’s so addled by 2024 they can no longer hide it.*
Objectively, he’s already there. And has been for some time.
One of the definitions of legal insanity is that the person “cannot distinguish fantasy from reality”. Sounds like Clickbait in spades.
Every day for the last 100 days, I’ve basked in the experience of not feeling like somebody was shrieking obscenities directly into my ears through a bullhorn.
It’s freaking great. I’m sure it won’t last, but it’s lovely and refreshing change.
Every day for the last 100 days, I’ve basked in the experience of not feeling like somebody was shrieking obscenities directly into my ears through a bullhorn.
It’s freaking great. I’m sure it won’t last, but it’s lovely and refreshing change.
wrs
wrs
I have enjoyed that also.
I have enjoyed that also.
I don’t know about our lurkers, but I suspect that (possibly for the first time) this is something that every single one of our commenters can agree on.
I don’t know about our lurkers, but I suspect that (possibly for the first time) this is something that every single one of our commenters can agree on.
I’m pretty sure the bullhorn is still out there, and still rotting brains. But at least our ears, and immune systems, are getting a break.
I’m pretty sure the bullhorn is still out there, and still rotting brains. But at least our ears, and immune systems, are getting a break.
it’s down in AZ, keeping the Big Lie alive with its team of Cyber Ninjas.
gotta keep the dupes duped or they’ll stop paying for Papa Trump’s annual gold toilet replating.
it’s down in AZ, keeping the Big Lie alive with its team of Cyber Ninjas.
gotta keep the dupes duped or they’ll stop paying for Papa Trump’s annual gold toilet replating.
While all? most? of us appreciate the quiet, I suspect the media are starting to jones for more Trumphetamine rush.
Why, if thing get too *boring* they’ll have to report actual *gasp* NEWS! INCONCEIVABLE!
I guess there’s always shark attacks and missing white women stories they can fall back on.
While all? most? of us appreciate the quiet, I suspect the media are starting to jones for more Trumphetamine rush.
Why, if thing get too *boring* they’ll have to report actual *gasp* NEWS! INCONCEIVABLE!
I guess there’s always shark attacks and missing white women stories they can fall back on.
Snarki, child of Loki – I don’t think the MSM will ever report actual news.
They don’t hire people who understand or care about policy, and they sure as hell don’t feature policy on any of their talkfests.
It’s all Gossip Girl nonsense. Who’s up, who’s down; who’s “winning,” and what Person X thinks about the mean thing Person Y said about them.
Pfui.
Snarki, child of Loki – I don’t think the MSM will ever report actual news.
They don’t hire people who understand or care about policy, and they sure as hell don’t feature policy on any of their talkfests.
It’s all Gossip Girl nonsense. Who’s up, who’s down; who’s “winning,” and what Person X thinks about the mean thing Person Y said about them.
Pfui.
“Sleepy Joe is gonna take away your hamburger” doesn’t have the same thrill. He seems too much like a guy who grills a nice steak now and then for it to be credible.
He’s FDR who drives a vintage Vette. It’s like a (D) secret weapon. I wouldn’t be surprised if he has a Harley panhead out in the garage.
“Sleepy Joe is gonna take away your hamburger” doesn’t have the same thrill. He seems too much like a guy who grills a nice steak now and then for it to be credible.
He’s FDR who drives a vintage Vette. It’s like a (D) secret weapon. I wouldn’t be surprised if he has a Harley panhead out in the garage.
they’ve finally got the scandal that will bring him down!
Biden’s fake planted photo-op dandelion -gate is going to blow the whole thing wide-open.
they’ve finally got the scandal that will bring him down!
Biden’s fake planted photo-op dandelion -gate is going to blow the whole thing wide-open.
The cops who tackled the old lady over a $13.88 not-actually-shoplifting-because-the-employees-took-the-stuff-back-before-she-left-the-store incident at WalMart, and dislocated her shoulder among other injuries, and laughed about it back at the station — are no longer employed as Loveland cops.
They can probably live on wingnut GoFundMe $ from here on out, like Kyle Rittenhouse. But hopefully they won’t be able to hop down the road and get jobs with some other PD.
The cops who tackled the old lady over a $13.88 not-actually-shoplifting-because-the-employees-took-the-stuff-back-before-she-left-the-store incident at WalMart, and dislocated her shoulder among other injuries, and laughed about it back at the station — are no longer employed as Loveland cops.
They can probably live on wingnut GoFundMe $ from here on out, like Kyle Rittenhouse. But hopefully they won’t be able to hop down the road and get jobs with some other PD.
@cleek — and the dope doing the “news”cast doesn’t even know the difference between a dandelion that hasn’t bloomed yet and one that has already gone to seed.
What were people saying about the media a few comments ago….?
I will add: it bemuses me on a daily basis that people who want to be journalists (the writing kind) for a living don’t care enough about language to equip themselves with basic grammatical competence or very much in the way of good vocab either.
I have a library’s worth of examples of the misuse of fancy-sounding words that they think make them look sophisticated but only succeed in making them look dumb.
Last week it was “flaunted COVID rules” instead of “flouted” them, in a headline and in the lede. To that reporter’s credit, he took my friendly email correction gamely, and shortly thereafter someone changed both the headline and the article to say … not “flouted,” but rather “violated.”
…
The good old days weren’t all good, but at least news outlets had enough revenue to pay editors to clean up the messes before they got in front of the public.
/Friday afternoon rant. Happy weekend you all.
@cleek — and the dope doing the “news”cast doesn’t even know the difference between a dandelion that hasn’t bloomed yet and one that has already gone to seed.
What were people saying about the media a few comments ago….?
I will add: it bemuses me on a daily basis that people who want to be journalists (the writing kind) for a living don’t care enough about language to equip themselves with basic grammatical competence or very much in the way of good vocab either.
I have a library’s worth of examples of the misuse of fancy-sounding words that they think make them look sophisticated but only succeed in making them look dumb.
Last week it was “flaunted COVID rules” instead of “flouted” them, in a headline and in the lede. To that reporter’s credit, he took my friendly email correction gamely, and shortly thereafter someone changed both the headline and the article to say … not “flouted,” but rather “violated.”
…
The good old days weren’t all good, but at least news outlets had enough revenue to pay editors to clean up the messes before they got in front of the public.
/Friday afternoon rant. Happy weekend you all.
As an aging suburban householder with a tiny but reasonably well-cared-for front lawn, I can say, with great confidence, that dandelions don’t need no planting.
They do quite well, all on their own.
As an aging suburban householder with a tiny but reasonably well-cared-for front lawn, I can say, with great confidence, that dandelions don’t need no planting.
They do quite well, all on their own.
Dandeliongate, which I have only just seen, is fab. Plus, wrs on the matter.
Ive just had my second Pfizer jab, twelve hours ago, no ill effects so far except a slightly sore arm.
Happy weekend all from me too, and in our case it’s a three day one, a legacy (possibly) of our once socialist masters. Hurrah!
Dandeliongate, which I have only just seen, is fab. Plus, wrs on the matter.
Ive just had my second Pfizer jab, twelve hours ago, no ill effects so far except a slightly sore arm.
Happy weekend all from me too, and in our case it’s a three day one, a legacy (possibly) of our once socialist masters. Hurrah!