Openish thread

by

by liberal japonicus

Sorry the links are just grabbing stuff, but the things I am thinking about now are
-What does Gamestock mean?
-how did we know about Greene’s FB videos before she got elected? And wtf does this say?
–AstraZeneca and the EU
–forced monkey labor
-too many links to list, but conspiracy, conspiracy, conspiracy
-and why it’s always projection

Talk about those or something else.

462 thoughts on “Openish thread”

  3. And wtf does this say?
    It says the party that used to be all about family values doesn’t give a sh*t about kids. (Or, perhaps, about education. I suppose that’s more likely, as I think about it.)

  4. And wtf does this say?
    It says the party that used to be all about family values doesn’t give a sh*t about kids. (Or, perhaps, about education. I suppose that’s more likely, as I think about it.)

  5. The only thing that a certain segment of the Republican base believes in inoculating their children against is other points of view.

  6. The only thing that a certain segment of the Republican base believes in inoculating their children against is other points of view.

  7. Since it’s an open thread…
    One of lj’s links “…even if it’s bonkers…” leads with the poll finding that “Forty percent of respondents said they believe the coronavirus was made in a lab in China”, followed by “one-third of Americans believe that voter fraud helped Joe Biden win the 2020 election”.
    These things seem to me not to be alike. I wouldn’t say I believe in the lab theory, but I wouldn’t rule it out either. Do we have experts here who can tell me why I should not suspect the Covid-19 virus to have come from the bat coronavirus lab in Wuhan, rather than from some unknown animal intermediary, or from bat caves hundreds of miles away?

  8. Since it’s an open thread…
    One of lj’s links “…even if it’s bonkers…” leads with the poll finding that “Forty percent of respondents said they believe the coronavirus was made in a lab in China”, followed by “one-third of Americans believe that voter fraud helped Joe Biden win the 2020 election”.
    These things seem to me not to be alike. I wouldn’t say I believe in the lab theory, but I wouldn’t rule it out either. Do we have experts here who can tell me why I should not suspect the Covid-19 virus to have come from the bat coronavirus lab in Wuhan, rather than from some unknown animal intermediary, or from bat caves hundreds of miles away?

  9. … the coronavirus was made in a lab in China
    There’re some reasons to think that it may have escaped from a lab in which it was being studied. There’s less reason to think that it had been manipulated in a lab. Some experts say there doesn’t seem to be any evidence in its DNA that it was a modified version of a wild virus.

  10. … the coronavirus was made in a lab in China
    There’re some reasons to think that it may have escaped from a lab in which it was being studied. There’s less reason to think that it had been manipulated in a lab. Some experts say there doesn’t seem to be any evidence in its DNA that it was a modified version of a wild virus.

  13. My understanding, and I am no expert, is that there exist “gain-of-function” experiments, in which viruses are encouraged by exposure to adapt to infect a new sort of cell, rather than directly modified. And that the results of successful experiments along these lines are indistinguishable from adaptation in the wild.

  14. My understanding, and I am no expert, is that there exist “gain-of-function” experiments, in which viruses are encouraged by exposure to adapt to infect a new sort of cell, rather than directly modified. And that the results of successful experiments along these lines are indistinguishable from adaptation in the wild.

  15. I am no expert in genetic engineering either, but I do teach research and can usually spot an unreliable source even if I can’t evaluate individual studies for their scientific merit. There were a few articles about gain-of-function research on google scholar (not the best search engine for rigor because it is easily duped by imposter journals) but several of those articles were variations on the same underlying article given different titles and registered as pre-print.
    Out of the stack they go.
    Another was published in a journal named (I shit you not) Conspiracy Tech.
    Another was published in a “variant views meant as conversation starters” publication, which is also to be taken with enough grains of salt to fight off a small slug infestation, but it at least cited this piece from Nature:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01541-z
    …which should at least help in sorting through all the questions.

  16. I am no expert in genetic engineering either, but I do teach research and can usually spot an unreliable source even if I can’t evaluate individual studies for their scientific merit. There were a few articles about gain-of-function research on google scholar (not the best search engine for rigor because it is easily duped by imposter journals) but several of those articles were variations on the same underlying article given different titles and registered as pre-print.
    Out of the stack they go.
    Another was published in a journal named (I shit you not) Conspiracy Tech.
    Another was published in a “variant views meant as conversation starters” publication, which is also to be taken with enough grains of salt to fight off a small slug infestation, but it at least cited this piece from Nature:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01541-z
    …which should at least help in sorting through all the questions.

  17. I’ll also note in passing that one of my academic colleagues used to work at a school that had a BSL-3 lab in which the janitor found an unsecured sample of a very dangerous infectious agent sitting beneath the lab’s microwave oven, apparently for months.
    Protocols are only as strong as the people who are meant to practice them.
    That matter never officially made its way to any monitoring agency and the lab is still running as usual, last I heard.

  18. I’ll also note in passing that one of my academic colleagues used to work at a school that had a BSL-3 lab in which the janitor found an unsecured sample of a very dangerous infectious agent sitting beneath the lab’s microwave oven, apparently for months.
    Protocols are only as strong as the people who are meant to practice them.
    That matter never officially made its way to any monitoring agency and the lab is still running as usual, last I heard.

  19. …variations on the same underlying article given different titles and registered as pre-print.
    Ha! Reminds me of Liberty Patriot News and Constitutional Freedom Beacon and such (those were made up, but may well exist for all I know) all putting out the same Alex Jones nonsense, though usually word for word without attribution. Never a good sign.

  20. …variations on the same underlying article given different titles and registered as pre-print.
    Ha! Reminds me of Liberty Patriot News and Constitutional Freedom Beacon and such (those were made up, but may well exist for all I know) all putting out the same Alex Jones nonsense, though usually word for word without attribution. Never a good sign.

  21. This is the paper I read (and I read the 2020 Editor’s note too). Zhengli-Li Shi is the Director of the Centre for Emerging Infectious Diseases at the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

  22. This is the paper I read (and I read the 2020 Editor’s note too). Zhengli-Li Shi is the Director of the Centre for Emerging Infectious Diseases at the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

  29. I don’t know about this. I don’t think that the same approach to both Iran and China are going to work, but I don’t know what sort of middle ground there is. I also think she was responding to a gotcha question. From the article
    Johnson asked her why she had said the United States is not in a new Cold War with China. He pointed to Hong Kong, where China has cracked down on democracy activists, and Taiwan, where Beijing says flights by its warplanes near the island last weekend were a warning against foreign interference in any independence moves.
    I wish it were better phrased, but when you have iijits like Johnson and Cruz asking questions, it is unavoidable.

  30. I don’t know about this. I don’t think that the same approach to both Iran and China are going to work, but I don’t know what sort of middle ground there is. I also think she was responding to a gotcha question. From the article
    Johnson asked her why she had said the United States is not in a new Cold War with China. He pointed to Hong Kong, where China has cracked down on democracy activists, and Taiwan, where Beijing says flights by its warplanes near the island last weekend were a warning against foreign interference in any independence moves.
    I wish it were better phrased, but when you have iijits like Johnson and Cruz asking questions, it is unavoidable.

  33. Openish thread, so I am linking to Ian Leslie’s blog The Ruffian, which always has interesting stuff (it’s where I got that Paul McCartney piece so many of you liked – but he ranges far and wide: in this one Approaches to Conflict, Jerry Seinfeld, Tesla, the Irrelevance of Relevance, lots of interesting stuff on Covid and Astra Zeneca etc). He says he is relying on his readers to be his marketing dept, so I am taking him at his word.
    https://ianleslie.substack.com/p/exit-strategies

  34. Openish thread, so I am linking to Ian Leslie’s blog The Ruffian, which always has interesting stuff (it’s where I got that Paul McCartney piece so many of you liked – but he ranges far and wide: in this one Approaches to Conflict, Jerry Seinfeld, Tesla, the Irrelevance of Relevance, lots of interesting stuff on Covid and Astra Zeneca etc). He says he is relying on his readers to be his marketing dept, so I am taking him at his word.
    https://ianleslie.substack.com/p/exit-strategies

  35. It says the party that used to be all about family values doesn’t give a sh*t about kids.
    the GOP has given up the pretense of having policy preferences. it is now fully radicalized and reactionary, to the exclusion of all else.
    it’s The Law.

  36. It says the party that used to be all about family values doesn’t give a sh*t about kids.
    the GOP has given up the pretense of having policy preferences. it is now fully radicalized and reactionary, to the exclusion of all else.
    it’s The Law.

  37. Since russell admired metal drummers’ chops on the other thread, but the music was not seasoned to taste, here’s Cynic’s dearly departed rhythm section’s take on the standard of standards. I’m not entirely sold on the first half, but I do like the second when Malone and Reinert strip it down a bit.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJwyvueH_ks

  38. Since russell admired metal drummers’ chops on the other thread, but the music was not seasoned to taste, here’s Cynic’s dearly departed rhythm section’s take on the standard of standards. I’m not entirely sold on the first half, but I do like the second when Malone and Reinert strip it down a bit.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJwyvueH_ks

  43. By GAAP, possibly that would be the case, but under GAPP*, not so much.
    *Generally Accepted Political Principles

  44. By GAAP, possibly that would be the case, but under GAPP*, not so much.
    *Generally Accepted Political Principles

  45. Cynic’s dearly departed rhythm section’s take on the standard of standards.
    ha!! the tune that cleared 10,000 jam session bandstands!!
    that was pretty killing. cool to see Reeves Gabrels pop up, too.
    great players all. thanks nous!!

  46. Cynic’s dearly departed rhythm section’s take on the standard of standards.
    ha!! the tune that cleared 10,000 jam session bandstands!!
    that was pretty killing. cool to see Reeves Gabrels pop up, too.
    great players all. thanks nous!!

  47. So now Trump is totally changing his legal team. Because they were planning a “it’s unconstitutional to try a President after he has left office” defense. And he wants a . . . wait for it . . . “the election was stolen by massive fraud” defense.
    Does he have a gunrest on his knee? In order to be sure he shoots himself in the foot. GOP Senators look like they are rushing to the former (procedural) approach, in order to avoid having to vote on the substance. But it seems Trump wants to force them to vote, explicitly, on his claim of fraud.

  48. So now Trump is totally changing his legal team. Because they were planning a “it’s unconstitutional to try a President after he has left office” defense. And he wants a . . . wait for it . . . “the election was stolen by massive fraud” defense.
    Does he have a gunrest on his knee? In order to be sure he shoots himself in the foot. GOP Senators look like they are rushing to the former (procedural) approach, in order to avoid having to vote on the substance. But it seems Trump wants to force them to vote, explicitly, on his claim of fraud.

  51. The elephant in the room being of course: “what do they actually want to do with regards to China?”
    shudder…

  52. The elephant in the room being of course: “what do they actually want to do with regards to China?”
    shudder…

  53. the standard of standards
    The lovely and talented Camille Bertault does a vocalese of the John Coltrane solo on that tune. It’s kind of a parlor trick, and has become something of a calling card for her, but it’s also a pretty remarkable achievement.
    The listener may find it impressive or annoying, depending on one’s interest in things jazzy. 🙂
    Dig it if ya dig it! And I promise, no more jazz today.

  54. the standard of standards
    The lovely and talented Camille Bertault does a vocalese of the John Coltrane solo on that tune. It’s kind of a parlor trick, and has become something of a calling card for her, but it’s also a pretty remarkable achievement.
    The listener may find it impressive or annoying, depending on one’s interest in things jazzy. 🙂
    Dig it if ya dig it! And I promise, no more jazz today.

  55. A remarkable achievement indeed. And I agree she is lovely. Previously the closest thing I ever heard in the same sort of vein was King Pleasure singing Moody’s Mood for Love, but although I love that for old times’ sake, it’s not nearly as technically amazing.

  56. A remarkable achievement indeed. And I agree she is lovely. Previously the closest thing I ever heard in the same sort of vein was King Pleasure singing Moody’s Mood for Love, but although I love that for old times’ sake, it’s not nearly as technically amazing.

  57. Or do I mean King Pleasure singing Parker’s Mood? It’s all so long ago, I’m so confused….forget I mentioned it!

  58. Or do I mean King Pleasure singing Parker’s Mood? It’s all so long ago, I’m so confused….forget I mentioned it!

  71. hi novakant, I think that Blinken is wrong, in that Trump didn’t really have a policy on China, it was just performative moves for an American public. I do think China needs to be ‘confronted’, they are a bigger ‘threat’ than Iran, but what should be done to ‘confront’ them, I’m not really sure. Certainly not by labelling covid ‘the China flu’ or stopping cooperation with health officials.
    This is what makes foreign policy so difficult, Biden can’t simply come in and say he’s going to do everything the opposite of Trump. Blinken is, like Thomas-Greenfield, answering questions from the seditionist from Wisconsin, Johnson, and I wish he could say ‘why are you asking me anything and why should I answer it, because you’ve proven that you are untrustworthy’. As an alternative, I wish Blinken had pointed out that a more enlightened view of China might have helped us prepare better for Covid, and asking why he’s still opposing mask mandates.
    https://www.kenoshanews.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/sen-ron-johnson-tests-positive-for-covid-19-attended-fundraiser-while-awaiting-test-result/article_a81174a2-9186-5a15-961c-4b8775120469.html
    Everytime Newsweek or any other outlet takes the answers given to bozos like Johnson and Cruz seriously, they are just setting up the pins again for another round. Screw that.

  72. hi novakant, I think that Blinken is wrong, in that Trump didn’t really have a policy on China, it was just performative moves for an American public. I do think China needs to be ‘confronted’, they are a bigger ‘threat’ than Iran, but what should be done to ‘confront’ them, I’m not really sure. Certainly not by labelling covid ‘the China flu’ or stopping cooperation with health officials.
    This is what makes foreign policy so difficult, Biden can’t simply come in and say he’s going to do everything the opposite of Trump. Blinken is, like Thomas-Greenfield, answering questions from the seditionist from Wisconsin, Johnson, and I wish he could say ‘why are you asking me anything and why should I answer it, because you’ve proven that you are untrustworthy’. As an alternative, I wish Blinken had pointed out that a more enlightened view of China might have helped us prepare better for Covid, and asking why he’s still opposing mask mandates.
    https://www.kenoshanews.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/sen-ron-johnson-tests-positive-for-covid-19-attended-fundraiser-while-awaiting-test-result/article_a81174a2-9186-5a15-961c-4b8775120469.html
    Everytime Newsweek or any other outlet takes the answers given to bozos like Johnson and Cruz seriously, they are just setting up the pins again for another round. Screw that.

  73. Gosh russell, I’d never heard that Amy Winehouse version – you’re right, it’s not half bad. Thanks!

  74. Gosh russell, I’d never heard that Amy Winehouse version – you’re right, it’s not half bad. Thanks!

  75. I think that Blinken is wrong, in that Trump didn’t really have a policy on China, it was just performative moves for an American public.
    Not wrong, I think, so much as strategically tactful. By telling the GOP airheads that he’s continuing Trump’s (nonexistent, as you say) policy, he makes it hard for them to oppose whatever it is he plans to do. Because then they’d have to articulate a different policy, (And somehow tie it to Trump.) And they got nuthin’.
    Whether what he intends to do is a good idea or not is a different discussion. But the statements on the genocide in progress in western China seem like a big step in the right direction on at least one front.

  76. I think that Blinken is wrong, in that Trump didn’t really have a policy on China, it was just performative moves for an American public.
    Not wrong, I think, so much as strategically tactful. By telling the GOP airheads that he’s continuing Trump’s (nonexistent, as you say) policy, he makes it hard for them to oppose whatever it is he plans to do. Because then they’d have to articulate a different policy, (And somehow tie it to Trump.) And they got nuthin’.
    Whether what he intends to do is a good idea or not is a different discussion. But the statements on the genocide in progress in western China seem like a big step in the right direction on at least one front.

  77. wj, more aptly phrased than me.
    I don’t want to get into motivations, but a lot of stuff popping up on my radar is driticism from the left. I don’t think that Biden’s admin should be exempt from criticism, but I’m at a loss to see how this is different from making a common cause with senators like Cruz and Johnson, who really should be ignored as they can’t be trusted to raise honest questions.

  78. wj, more aptly phrased than me.
    I don’t want to get into motivations, but a lot of stuff popping up on my radar is driticism from the left. I don’t think that Biden’s admin should be exempt from criticism, but I’m at a loss to see how this is different from making a common cause with senators like Cruz and Johnson, who really should be ignored as they can’t be trusted to raise honest questions.

  79. a lot of stuff popping up on my radar is driticism from the left
    It seems to be a recurring pattern: gat someone in office who is a moderate liberal, and the far left positively stampedes to join forces with the far right in attacking him.

  80. a lot of stuff popping up on my radar is driticism from the left
    It seems to be a recurring pattern: gat someone in office who is a moderate liberal, and the far left positively stampedes to join forces with the far right in attacking him.

  81. Assume that any moderate Democrat elected to national office becomes the flag in the middle of the tug-of-war rope and marks the center of the Overton Window.
    Assume that any Republican elected to national office functions in exactly the same way, but the GOP kicks all of the Democrats out and the tug-of-war is just between the donors and the base.
    Assume that the moderate Democrats are trying to keep the left from pulling too hard too fast in hopes of getting the R donors to stop pulling right and start pulling left instead.

  82. Assume that any moderate Democrat elected to national office becomes the flag in the middle of the tug-of-war rope and marks the center of the Overton Window.
    Assume that any Republican elected to national office functions in exactly the same way, but the GOP kicks all of the Democrats out and the tug-of-war is just between the donors and the base.
    Assume that the moderate Democrats are trying to keep the left from pulling too hard too fast in hopes of getting the R donors to stop pulling right and start pulling left instead.

  83. It seems to be a recurring pattern: gat someone in office who is a moderate liberal, and the far left positively stampedes to join forces with the far right in attacking him.
    the far left has no influence.
    the far right just staged a failed insurrection, at the behest of the former President and hundreds of members of Congress and all of Republican media.
    you can always find unsatisfied lefties, if you look for them. if you tune your radar just right.

  84. It seems to be a recurring pattern: gat someone in office who is a moderate liberal, and the far left positively stampedes to join forces with the far right in attacking him.
    the far left has no influence.
    the far right just staged a failed insurrection, at the behest of the former President and hundreds of members of Congress and all of Republican media.
    you can always find unsatisfied lefties, if you look for them. if you tune your radar just right.

  85. Anita O’Day
    O’Day was just a bad-ass. She could pretty much hang with anybody. Just as bad as she wanted to be, every day of the week.
    The Winehouse version of Moody’s Mood For Love just always makes me sad. She had a real gift, a real understanding of soul music, a true ear and intuition for rhythm and phrasing, she was a natural, but I think she just kind of drowned in her own hype. That, and the chemicals.
    She coulda been a contender. Not just a pop star, but a real artist.
    That chemical shit is a bitch. Bill Evans talked a bit about his addictions. For a while it let him shut the rest of the world away, and just live in his music. Then, it took over that, too. Just a slow-motion suicide.
    I think a lot of the glamour has gone out of the junkie artist thing, and that is nothing but a good thing.
    When Peyroux first came out, I kind of thought hey, that’s nice, but a little Billie goes a long way. But now I think that’s just her real thing, and it’s pretty cool. She owns it, she makes it work, and it sounds great. A cool singer.

  86. Anita O’Day
    O’Day was just a bad-ass. She could pretty much hang with anybody. Just as bad as she wanted to be, every day of the week.
    The Winehouse version of Moody’s Mood For Love just always makes me sad. She had a real gift, a real understanding of soul music, a true ear and intuition for rhythm and phrasing, she was a natural, but I think she just kind of drowned in her own hype. That, and the chemicals.
    She coulda been a contender. Not just a pop star, but a real artist.
    That chemical shit is a bitch. Bill Evans talked a bit about his addictions. For a while it let him shut the rest of the world away, and just live in his music. Then, it took over that, too. Just a slow-motion suicide.
    I think a lot of the glamour has gone out of the junkie artist thing, and that is nothing but a good thing.
    When Peyroux first came out, I kind of thought hey, that’s nice, but a little Billie goes a long way. But now I think that’s just her real thing, and it’s pretty cool. She owns it, she makes it work, and it sounds great. A cool singer.

  87. In case the moniker “far left” should be directed at me, I just praised the Biden admin for appointing O’Malley and then mentioned the fact that while they otherwise are very keen on distinguishing themselves from Trump’s policies, there is a pronounced continuity with regards to China, which is not restricted to the confirmation hearings.
    FWIW the latter has been noticed by many experts as well as mainstream news outlets.

  88. In case the moniker “far left” should be directed at me, I just praised the Biden admin for appointing O’Malley and then mentioned the fact that while they otherwise are very keen on distinguishing themselves from Trump’s policies, there is a pronounced continuity with regards to China, which is not restricted to the confirmation hearings.
    FWIW the latter has been noticed by many experts as well as mainstream news outlets.

  89. I feel like the highlighting by mainstream news outlets is problematic in that they are highlighting questions that are not asked in good faith. For example, the newsweek article
    https://www.newsweek.com/antony-blinken-joe-bidens-state-department-pick-says-donald-trump-got-it-right-china-1562777
    Has as its title
    Antony Blinken, Joe Biden’s State Department Pick, Says Donald Trump ‘Got It Right’ on China
    Yet in the article, here’s Blinken at length
    “I also believe President Trump was right in taking a tougher approach to China. I disagree very much with the way he went about it in a number of ways, but the basic principle was the right one and I think that’s very helpful to our foreign policy,” Blinken said. “I have issues with the way he carried it out, in many ways.”
    If anyone has a problem with that, what is the alternative statement? Trump was wrong in everything he did, therefore the US should not do anything to protect their interests?
    I prefer the Reuters title, which seems a much fairer way of putting it
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-biden-state-china-idUSKBN29O2GB
    U.S. secretary of state nominee Blinken sees strong foundation for bipartisan China policy
    Newsweek seems to be set on making a equivalence between Trump and Biden with headlines like this
    https://www.newsweek.com/antony-blinken-picks-mike-pompeo-mantle-tackles-china-1565140
    Antony Blinken Picks Up Mike Pompeo’s Mantle as He Tackles China Head-On
    This New Republic article,
    https://newrepublic.com/article/160992/biden-china-climate-yellen-blinken-austin
    criticized Blinken and Biden, but doesn’t try to go for the zinger of just carrying out Trump’s ideas
    This Politico article gives a much better and more nuanced explanation and more closely analyzes what Blinken said rather than ‘oh my god, he agreed with Trump’
    https://www.politico.com/newsletters/politico-china-watcher/2021/01/21/a-biden-doctrine-on-china-emerges-491467
    This is also a great article to discuss how a Biden admin could confront China in ways that the Trump admin couldn’t even imagine
    https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/01/19/us-black-ambassadors-china-foreign-service/
    As far as experts, I’m wondering you specifically you are citing. Navarro was held up as a China expert, it’s not like there is a test or a licensing process for them. So I’d have to see who was being cited as an expert before I’d accept that their view is that Biden is just doing the exact same as Trump.

  90. I feel like the highlighting by mainstream news outlets is problematic in that they are highlighting questions that are not asked in good faith. For example, the newsweek article
    https://www.newsweek.com/antony-blinken-joe-bidens-state-department-pick-says-donald-trump-got-it-right-china-1562777
    Has as its title
    Antony Blinken, Joe Biden’s State Department Pick, Says Donald Trump ‘Got It Right’ on China
    Yet in the article, here’s Blinken at length
    “I also believe President Trump was right in taking a tougher approach to China. I disagree very much with the way he went about it in a number of ways, but the basic principle was the right one and I think that’s very helpful to our foreign policy,” Blinken said. “I have issues with the way he carried it out, in many ways.”
    If anyone has a problem with that, what is the alternative statement? Trump was wrong in everything he did, therefore the US should not do anything to protect their interests?
    I prefer the Reuters title, which seems a much fairer way of putting it
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-biden-state-china-idUSKBN29O2GB
    U.S. secretary of state nominee Blinken sees strong foundation for bipartisan China policy
    Newsweek seems to be set on making a equivalence between Trump and Biden with headlines like this
    https://www.newsweek.com/antony-blinken-picks-mike-pompeo-mantle-tackles-china-1565140
    Antony Blinken Picks Up Mike Pompeo’s Mantle as He Tackles China Head-On
    This New Republic article,
    https://newrepublic.com/article/160992/biden-china-climate-yellen-blinken-austin
    criticized Blinken and Biden, but doesn’t try to go for the zinger of just carrying out Trump’s ideas
    This Politico article gives a much better and more nuanced explanation and more closely analyzes what Blinken said rather than ‘oh my god, he agreed with Trump’
    https://www.politico.com/newsletters/politico-china-watcher/2021/01/21/a-biden-doctrine-on-china-emerges-491467
    This is also a great article to discuss how a Biden admin could confront China in ways that the Trump admin couldn’t even imagine
    https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/01/19/us-black-ambassadors-china-foreign-service/
    As far as experts, I’m wondering you specifically you are citing. Navarro was held up as a China expert, it’s not like there is a test or a licensing process for them. So I’d have to see who was being cited as an expert before I’d accept that their view is that Biden is just doing the exact same as Trump.

  91. Lj, I have no idea why you are so defensive about this. There has been a bipartisan consensus building over the last few years that aggressively confronting China is the way to go for US foreign policy and everything we have heard from the Biden administration so far on the matter is in line with this stance.
    So it is not surprising if there will be continuity with Trump’s recent China policy, but this in itself is only of limited interest. What is worrying is the prospect of a new cold war, or god forbid, a military confrontation over Taiwan / South China Sea.
    It’s early days and everyone is reading the tea leaves, but the tone is remarkably aggressive and I don’t think that’s helpful.

  92. Lj, I have no idea why you are so defensive about this. There has been a bipartisan consensus building over the last few years that aggressively confronting China is the way to go for US foreign policy and everything we have heard from the Biden administration so far on the matter is in line with this stance.
    So it is not surprising if there will be continuity with Trump’s recent China policy, but this in itself is only of limited interest. What is worrying is the prospect of a new cold war, or god forbid, a military confrontation over Taiwan / South China Sea.
    It’s early days and everyone is reading the tea leaves, but the tone is remarkably aggressive and I don’t think that’s helpful.

  93. Apologies, I don’t mean to be defensive, but your initial post was
    Also, bad news regarding foreign policy, continuing Trump’s confrontational course against China:
    which sounds like it would be “good” news if Blinken was saying that we should not continue to confront China. At least that’s how I took it.
    I agree that we are reading tea leaves, but the tea leaves of the confirmation questions, especially when they from Ron Johnson and Ted Cruz, are more like reading a book made with crayons by a 3 year old. There is some intention there, but it is better at revealing the lack of insight of the Republican questioners.
    I do want the left to pull Biden and move that Overton windown, as I am sure you do, but implying that Biden is going to have the same policy as Trump (which is what the newsweek articles do) is remarkably unhelpful. I believe that China has to be confronted on a range of issues, Tibet, Hong Kong, the Uighur, maritime claims in the South China Sea are the ones that spring to mind. Not to mention the Belt and Road initiative and developments in terms of Covid. Along with the mundane world of IP, piracy, and dealing with North Korea. You stack those up and the newsweek hot take of ‘oh, he’s just like Trump’ doesn’t really grab me.
    Obviously, this is a lot more of an issue with me over here than it would be with you, and the mere mention of the names Johnson and Cruz raise my blood pressure, so I apologize for my aggressiveness, but I don’t believe it is ‘defensiveness’. I just don’t think it is going to do any good to have a steady diet of hot takes from senators more interested in trying to score cheap points rather than try to come up with a foreign policy that is going to require some pretty tough balancing. And who have demonstrated their own willingness to choose sedition.
    Again, apologies if I am too aggressive with my reply, it is just that China is a lot closer to home for me.

  94. Apologies, I don’t mean to be defensive, but your initial post was
    Also, bad news regarding foreign policy, continuing Trump’s confrontational course against China:
    which sounds like it would be “good” news if Blinken was saying that we should not continue to confront China. At least that’s how I took it.
    I agree that we are reading tea leaves, but the tea leaves of the confirmation questions, especially when they from Ron Johnson and Ted Cruz, are more like reading a book made with crayons by a 3 year old. There is some intention there, but it is better at revealing the lack of insight of the Republican questioners.
    I do want the left to pull Biden and move that Overton windown, as I am sure you do, but implying that Biden is going to have the same policy as Trump (which is what the newsweek articles do) is remarkably unhelpful. I believe that China has to be confronted on a range of issues, Tibet, Hong Kong, the Uighur, maritime claims in the South China Sea are the ones that spring to mind. Not to mention the Belt and Road initiative and developments in terms of Covid. Along with the mundane world of IP, piracy, and dealing with North Korea. You stack those up and the newsweek hot take of ‘oh, he’s just like Trump’ doesn’t really grab me.
    Obviously, this is a lot more of an issue with me over here than it would be with you, and the mere mention of the names Johnson and Cruz raise my blood pressure, so I apologize for my aggressiveness, but I don’t believe it is ‘defensiveness’. I just don’t think it is going to do any good to have a steady diet of hot takes from senators more interested in trying to score cheap points rather than try to come up with a foreign policy that is going to require some pretty tough balancing. And who have demonstrated their own willingness to choose sedition.
    Again, apologies if I am too aggressive with my reply, it is just that China is a lot closer to home for me.

  95. It’s early days and everyone is reading the tea leaves, but the tone is remarkably aggressive and I don’t think that’s helpful.
    Well, compared to Trump applauding Xi for setting up concentration camps for the Uighurs, pretty much anything could be seen as aggressive or “confrontational.” But the fact is, failing to push back on China over Taiwan or the South China Sea looks to me like “peace in our time.”
    Under Xi, China is a bully. As with any bully, either you show that you won’t fight back, and keep getting punched, or you show that you are willing to fight back so you don’t have to. We don’t want to start a fight with China. But that doesn’t mean caving in everywhere in order to “avoid confrontation”.

  96. It’s early days and everyone is reading the tea leaves, but the tone is remarkably aggressive and I don’t think that’s helpful.
    Well, compared to Trump applauding Xi for setting up concentration camps for the Uighurs, pretty much anything could be seen as aggressive or “confrontational.” But the fact is, failing to push back on China over Taiwan or the South China Sea looks to me like “peace in our time.”
    Under Xi, China is a bully. As with any bully, either you show that you won’t fight back, and keep getting punched, or you show that you are willing to fight back so you don’t have to. We don’t want to start a fight with China. But that doesn’t mean caving in everywhere in order to “avoid confrontation”.

  99. She coulda been a contender. Not just a pop star, but a real artist.
    I agree. Such a tragedy, and so strange that it was booze that got her in the end, she’d already kicked the smack. I thought Rehab was funny when it came out – I can’t stand to listen to it now.

  100. She coulda been a contender. Not just a pop star, but a real artist.
    I agree. Such a tragedy, and so strange that it was booze that got her in the end, she’d already kicked the smack. I thought Rehab was funny when it came out – I can’t stand to listen to it now.

  101. But it seems Trump wants to force them to vote, explicitly, on his claim of fraud.
    It’s hard to escape the conclusion that Trump actually believes this balderdash.

  102. But it seems Trump wants to force them to vote, explicitly, on his claim of fraud.
    It’s hard to escape the conclusion that Trump actually believes this balderdash.

  103. …What is worrying is the prospect of a new cold war, or god forbid, a military confrontation over Taiwan / South China Sea….
    It is hard to see how the US avoids defending Taiwanese independence, though.
    It’s an uncomfortable fact that most of the high end computer chips on which a very large port of our economies depend come from there. An authoritarian China doing with Taiwan what it just did with Hong Kong would be very uncomfortable for the rest of us.
    https://stratechery.com/2020/chips-and-geopolitics/

  104. …What is worrying is the prospect of a new cold war, or god forbid, a military confrontation over Taiwan / South China Sea….
    It is hard to see how the US avoids defending Taiwanese independence, though.
    It’s an uncomfortable fact that most of the high end computer chips on which a very large port of our economies depend come from there. An authoritarian China doing with Taiwan what it just did with Hong Kong would be very uncomfortable for the rest of us.
    https://stratechery.com/2020/chips-and-geopolitics/

  105. When Peyroux first came out, I kind of thought hey, that’s nice, but a little Billie goes a long way. But now I think that’s just her real thing, and it’s pretty cool.
    yeah, same here. i kept waiting for her to do something in what i assumed was her ‘real’ voice, and it never happened. so, i’ve just accepted that she just has a similar voice to Billie H..

  106. When Peyroux first came out, I kind of thought hey, that’s nice, but a little Billie goes a long way. But now I think that’s just her real thing, and it’s pretty cool.
    yeah, same here. i kept waiting for her to do something in what i assumed was her ‘real’ voice, and it never happened. so, i’ve just accepted that she just has a similar voice to Billie H..

  107. So, does the U.K. escape the reach of Big Dairy’s E.U. overreach?
    “Opponents of the current E.U. proposal, Amendment 171, have dubbed it the ‘Dairy Ban.’ The law would prohibit plant-based milk producers from using words or images on their food labels that may also be used to describe or refer to animal-based dairy products.
    Worse still, the rules could expand beyond simply censoring words and pictures on food packaging. It could even prohibit the use of some common food     packaging itself.
    ‘They would also be unable to use packaging designs that call to mind dairy products, such as yoghurt [containers] or milk cartons,’     The Conversation explains. ‘Even simply showing climate impact by comparing the carbon footprint of their products with dairy equivalents could become illegal.'”
    Europe Considers Orwellian Proposal To Protect Its Dairy Industry From Vegan Competitors: Consumers aren’t confused about where plant milks come from. Quite the opposite, in fact.

  108. So, does the U.K. escape the reach of Big Dairy’s E.U. overreach?
    “Opponents of the current E.U. proposal, Amendment 171, have dubbed it the ‘Dairy Ban.’ The law would prohibit plant-based milk producers from using words or images on their food labels that may also be used to describe or refer to animal-based dairy products.
    Worse still, the rules could expand beyond simply censoring words and pictures on food packaging. It could even prohibit the use of some common food     packaging itself.
    ‘They would also be unable to use packaging designs that call to mind dairy products, such as yoghurt [containers] or milk cartons,’     The Conversation explains. ‘Even simply showing climate impact by comparing the carbon footprint of their products with dairy equivalents could become illegal.'”
    Europe Considers Orwellian Proposal To Protect Its Dairy Industry From Vegan Competitors: Consumers aren’t confused about where plant milks come from. Quite the opposite, in fact.

  109. It is hard to see how the US avoids defending Taiwanese independence, though.
    It’s an uncomfortable fact that most of the high end computer chips on which a very large port of our economies depend come from there. An authoritarian China doing with Taiwan what it just did with Hong Kong would be very uncomfortable for the rest of us.
    Yes, and let’s keep this in mind when discussing defense spending. The PRC has interior lines of communication and land-based aircraft. No one knows what would happen if war broke out. The PRC’s soft spot is food. My innumeracy prevents me from teasing out the precise import of this:
    *In the year of 2017 China imported 53.48 million tons of food & beverage with total value worth 58.28 billion USD, representing 36.5% and 25% year-on-year growth respectively. In the past five years from 2013 to 2017, the average annual growth rate of imported food trade in China remained 5.7%.*
    But, if there is a soft underbelly, it is food, which means closing off the PRC’s ports which then means, first, decisively winning a major air/sea battle and thereafter having sufficient assets left over to blockade a very long coast line.

  110. It is hard to see how the US avoids defending Taiwanese independence, though.
    It’s an uncomfortable fact that most of the high end computer chips on which a very large port of our economies depend come from there. An authoritarian China doing with Taiwan what it just did with Hong Kong would be very uncomfortable for the rest of us.
    Yes, and let’s keep this in mind when discussing defense spending. The PRC has interior lines of communication and land-based aircraft. No one knows what would happen if war broke out. The PRC’s soft spot is food. My innumeracy prevents me from teasing out the precise import of this:
    *In the year of 2017 China imported 53.48 million tons of food & beverage with total value worth 58.28 billion USD, representing 36.5% and 25% year-on-year growth respectively. In the past five years from 2013 to 2017, the average annual growth rate of imported food trade in China remained 5.7%.*
    But, if there is a soft underbelly, it is food, which means closing off the PRC’s ports which then means, first, decisively winning a major air/sea battle and thereafter having sufficient assets left over to blockade a very long coast line.

  113. and a lot of China’s imported food comes from the US.
    so, any blockade of China is going to come with a lot of angry US farmers. which means they’ll be OK if a Republican does it, but not a Democrat.

  114. and a lot of China’s imported food comes from the US.
    so, any blockade of China is going to come with a lot of angry US farmers. which means they’ll be OK if a Republican does it, but not a Democrat.

  115. which means they’ll be OK if a Republican does it
    And if they get (Republican-proposed) subsidies. Democratic-proposed subsidies being, of course, a threat to freedom and independence.

  116. which means they’ll be OK if a Republican does it
    And if they get (Republican-proposed) subsidies. Democratic-proposed subsidies being, of course, a threat to freedom and independence.

  117. As a tangent to the article on Taiwan based chip foundries, Intel’s commitment to CISC chip technology is becoming RISCy.
    “When Apple announced that it would transition away from Intel processors to its own chips in June of 2020, many were skeptical that a computer powered by a processor based on an iPhone chip could compete with the Intel-based Mac computers that have been the standard since 2006. The M1 Mac computers that launched in November of 2020 have quelled much of that doubt, demonstrating surprisingly high performance. The M1 defeats many of the top Intel and AMD CPUs in single-core tests and handily beats low-power chips in multi-core tests as well.”
    M1 Mac: How RISC Makes Apple Silicon Faster Than Intel: The new Macs with Apple’s M1 use a RISC design that enables more low-level parallel processing than the CISC design of Intel and AMD processors.

  118. As a tangent to the article on Taiwan based chip foundries, Intel’s commitment to CISC chip technology is becoming RISCy.
    “When Apple announced that it would transition away from Intel processors to its own chips in June of 2020, many were skeptical that a computer powered by a processor based on an iPhone chip could compete with the Intel-based Mac computers that have been the standard since 2006. The M1 Mac computers that launched in November of 2020 have quelled much of that doubt, demonstrating surprisingly high performance. The M1 defeats many of the top Intel and AMD CPUs in single-core tests and handily beats low-power chips in multi-core tests as well.”
    M1 Mac: How RISC Makes Apple Silicon Faster Than Intel: The new Macs with Apple’s M1 use a RISC design that enables more low-level parallel processing than the CISC design of Intel and AMD processors.

  119. https://chinapower.csis.org/china-food-security/
    and
    https://wits.worldbank.org/CountryProfile/en/Country/CHN/Year/2018/TradeFlow/Import/Partner/USA/Product/All-Groups
    basically, underlining what pro bono and cleek point out.
    https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3111623/china-food-security-hows-it-going-and-whys-it-important
    also this link points out that China is the 2nd largest food exporter to the US, and that half the exports to China in 2014 were soybeans (Though it is a smaller part with China turning to Brazil for that) means that all the talk of blockades is so much hot air.
    https://www.americanmanufacturing.org/blog/the-u-s-imports-a-lot-of-food-from-china-and-you-might-be-surprised-whats-on-the-list/

  120. https://chinapower.csis.org/china-food-security/
    and
    https://wits.worldbank.org/CountryProfile/en/Country/CHN/Year/2018/TradeFlow/Import/Partner/USA/Product/All-Groups
    basically, underlining what pro bono and cleek point out.
    https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3111623/china-food-security-hows-it-going-and-whys-it-important
    also this link points out that China is the 2nd largest food exporter to the US, and that half the exports to China in 2014 were soybeans (Though it is a smaller part with China turning to Brazil for that) means that all the talk of blockades is so much hot air.
    https://www.americanmanufacturing.org/blog/the-u-s-imports-a-lot-of-food-from-china-and-you-might-be-surprised-whats-on-the-list/

  121. The last thing I’m going to do is get in an argument over statistics unless the math is very, very basic. It may very well be that the PRC is almost self sufficient in food production. This piece indicates some reason for doubt (.21 arable acres per capita is not a lot of arable land): https://chinapower.csis.org/china-food-security/
    OTOH, if my seldom-requested judgment of how the US could gain leverage over the PRC in a way that would bring a shooting war to an end is off, I’d still submit that are three options: nukes (so, really not an option), invasion (a slightly less awful alternative than nukes) or blockade (also a shitty option, but at least it’s conventional, and possible assuming the initial air/sea battle goes our way decisively–which is an open question to which I have no answer).
    The topic raised by LJ and Nigel is standing up to the PRC. Only the US has the depth to do that, but it’s a long boat ride across the Pacific. So, the real bottom line is: does the US spend what will be needed to face down the PRC or not? And are those voting “no” willing to live with the long term effects of that decision?

  122. The last thing I’m going to do is get in an argument over statistics unless the math is very, very basic. It may very well be that the PRC is almost self sufficient in food production. This piece indicates some reason for doubt (.21 arable acres per capita is not a lot of arable land): https://chinapower.csis.org/china-food-security/
    OTOH, if my seldom-requested judgment of how the US could gain leverage over the PRC in a way that would bring a shooting war to an end is off, I’d still submit that are three options: nukes (so, really not an option), invasion (a slightly less awful alternative than nukes) or blockade (also a shitty option, but at least it’s conventional, and possible assuming the initial air/sea battle goes our way decisively–which is an open question to which I have no answer).
    The topic raised by LJ and Nigel is standing up to the PRC. Only the US has the depth to do that, but it’s a long boat ride across the Pacific. So, the real bottom line is: does the US spend what will be needed to face down the PRC or not? And are those voting “no” willing to live with the long term effects of that decision?

  125. China is the 2nd largest food exporter to the US, and that half the exports to China in 2014 were soybeans
    And, thanks to Trump’s trade wars, pretty much all of that soybean market is now taken by Brazil.

  126. China is the 2nd largest food exporter to the US, and that half the exports to China in 2014 were soybeans
    And, thanks to Trump’s trade wars, pretty much all of that soybean market is now taken by Brazil.

  127. the real bottom line is: does the US spend what will be needed to face down the PRC or not? And are those voting “no” willing to live with the long term effects of that decision?
    Do those voting “no” have a clue what those long term effects might be? Or are they in a Trump-style denial on the whole subject?

  128. the real bottom line is: does the US spend what will be needed to face down the PRC or not? And are those voting “no” willing to live with the long term effects of that decision?
    Do those voting “no” have a clue what those long term effects might be? Or are they in a Trump-style denial on the whole subject?

  129. OTOH, if my seldom-requested judgment of how the US could gain leverage over the PRC in a way that would bring a shooting war to an end is off, I’d still submit that are three options
    As I have had to explain to McKinney before, there is no way I underestimate what ruthlessness the PRC is capable of, and in the end some variation of this may be necessary. But, it would clearly be far preferable for this never to come to a shooting war, and it may be there are other ways to exert pressure on China which would avoid that necessity. I do not pretend to have the answer (although it would be hard to come up with more inept, inconsistent diplomacy than that exercised by the Trump regime, if it is not laughable even to use the word “diplomacy” where they are concerned), nor should the possible eventual necessity of a big stick be ignored (therefore hopefully making its use unnecessary), but clever people in place in various positions in the intelligence agencies and the foreign service who actually understand one’s adversaries (and therefore what kind of pressure, or motivation, might work with them) would be a fine start.

  130. OTOH, if my seldom-requested judgment of how the US could gain leverage over the PRC in a way that would bring a shooting war to an end is off, I’d still submit that are three options
    As I have had to explain to McKinney before, there is no way I underestimate what ruthlessness the PRC is capable of, and in the end some variation of this may be necessary. But, it would clearly be far preferable for this never to come to a shooting war, and it may be there are other ways to exert pressure on China which would avoid that necessity. I do not pretend to have the answer (although it would be hard to come up with more inept, inconsistent diplomacy than that exercised by the Trump regime, if it is not laughable even to use the word “diplomacy” where they are concerned), nor should the possible eventual necessity of a big stick be ignored (therefore hopefully making its use unnecessary), but clever people in place in various positions in the intelligence agencies and the foreign service who actually understand one’s adversaries (and therefore what kind of pressure, or motivation, might work with them) would be a fine start.

  131. Only the US has the depth to do that, but it’s a long boat ride across the Pacific.
    If only there were something where nations grouped together to create conditions where a nation like China might have to alter its policies short of war. I wish I could think of something, but I just can’t.

  132. Only the US has the depth to do that, but it’s a long boat ride across the Pacific.
    If only there were something where nations grouped together to create conditions where a nation like China might have to alter its policies short of war. I wish I could think of something, but I just can’t.

  133. Some wishing from some Reason writers.
    • Reform the Clemency Process
    • Get Out of Afghanistan
    • Don’t Call It ‘Junk’ Insurance—and Don’t Restrict Its Sale
    • Let Hongkongers Come to America
    • Expand Your Marijuana Reform Ambitions
    • Keep Playing Nice With Private Space Companies
    • End Trump’s Trade Wars
    Rather than spurning allies, Biden should take a multilateral approach. Japan, Vietnam, and other major American trading partners share many of our concerns about the economic influence China exerts. It makes sense to pursue a regional trade deal that would lower tariffs for imports from non-China countries. That would give American businesses clear alternatives for overseas investment and force China to change if it wants to keep competing.
    That was the basic idea behind the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), the Obama-era trade agreement that Trump tore up during his first week in office. The other nations involved in that deal went ahead without the United States, but America’s participation would probably be welcomed, though some diplomacy might be necessary. Biden has said he would not rejoin the TPP as it was previously written but that he would leverage America’s allies to hold China accountable for breaking international norms on trade. That’s a good place to start.
    A Practical Wish List for Joe Biden: Some doable libertarian ideas for the new president

  134. Some wishing from some Reason writers.
    • Reform the Clemency Process
    • Get Out of Afghanistan
    • Don’t Call It ‘Junk’ Insurance—and Don’t Restrict Its Sale
    • Let Hongkongers Come to America
    • Expand Your Marijuana Reform Ambitions
    • Keep Playing Nice With Private Space Companies
    • End Trump’s Trade Wars
    Rather than spurning allies, Biden should take a multilateral approach. Japan, Vietnam, and other major American trading partners share many of our concerns about the economic influence China exerts. It makes sense to pursue a regional trade deal that would lower tariffs for imports from non-China countries. That would give American businesses clear alternatives for overseas investment and force China to change if it wants to keep competing.
    That was the basic idea behind the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), the Obama-era trade agreement that Trump tore up during his first week in office. The other nations involved in that deal went ahead without the United States, but America’s participation would probably be welcomed, though some diplomacy might be necessary. Biden has said he would not rejoin the TPP as it was previously written but that he would leverage America’s allies to hold China accountable for breaking international norms on trade. That’s a good place to start.
    A Practical Wish List for Joe Biden: Some doable libertarian ideas for the new president

  135. What alternative term is suggested for Junk Insurance? That has some resemblance to truth in advertising. And reflects its true worth to most potential customers.
    Seems like “junk” is a pretty accurate description for most of the people who end up buying it. Yes, there are circumstances where it is appropriate. But for those few cases, the buyers are sufficiently knowledgeable that they won’t be put off by a name.

  136. What alternative term is suggested for Junk Insurance? That has some resemblance to truth in advertising. And reflects its true worth to most potential customers.
    Seems like “junk” is a pretty accurate description for most of the people who end up buying it. Yes, there are circumstances where it is appropriate. But for those few cases, the buyers are sufficiently knowledgeable that they won’t be put off by a name.

  137. Given that Trump weaponized the TPP to leverage anger and that Trump hated the TPP then liked it
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/04/13/a-timeline-of-trumps-complicated-relationship-with-the-tpp/
    Biden’s approach makes sense. Also, because Warren and Sanders opposed the TPP, it is important to understand and include points that deal with their objections, though Sanders was quite outspoken in his opposition, praising Trump’s withdrawal. So it might be really hard to square that circle.

  138. Given that Trump weaponized the TPP to leverage anger and that Trump hated the TPP then liked it
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/04/13/a-timeline-of-trumps-complicated-relationship-with-the-tpp/
    Biden’s approach makes sense. Also, because Warren and Sanders opposed the TPP, it is important to understand and include points that deal with their objections, though Sanders was quite outspoken in his opposition, praising Trump’s withdrawal. So it might be really hard to square that circle.

  139. OTOH, if my seldom-requested judgment of how the US could gain leverage over the PRC in a way that would bring a shooting war to an end is off, I’d still submit that are three options
    what if we stopped buying stuff from them? or, you know, slapped a big tariff on it and let the magic of the market do its stuff?
    not recommending, just asking.
    if it came to a shooting war between the US and China, there would probably be a winner, and it would probably not be either the US or China.

  140. OTOH, if my seldom-requested judgment of how the US could gain leverage over the PRC in a way that would bring a shooting war to an end is off, I’d still submit that are three options
    what if we stopped buying stuff from them? or, you know, slapped a big tariff on it and let the magic of the market do its stuff?
    not recommending, just asking.
    if it came to a shooting war between the US and China, there would probably be a winner, and it would probably not be either the US or China.

  141. I doubt China wants a shooting war with the US. With Xi, they have put aside their normal long game to see how hard and far they can push everyone else. China’s military is a bit of a paper tiger anyway.

  142. I doubt China wants a shooting war with the US. With Xi, they have put aside their normal long game to see how hard and far they can push everyone else. China’s military is a bit of a paper tiger anyway.

  143. With Xi, they have put aside their normal long game to see how hard and far they can push everyone else.
    As long as the US doesn’t push back (and who else is strong enough?), they’ll keep pushing. The US doesn’t have to get close to anything close to a shooting war. Just get beyond Trump-style obviously empty bluster.

  144. With Xi, they have put aside their normal long game to see how hard and far they can push everyone else.
    As long as the US doesn’t push back (and who else is strong enough?), they’ll keep pushing. The US doesn’t have to get close to anything close to a shooting war. Just get beyond Trump-style obviously empty bluster.

  145. With over a decade of teaching students from China (including a few tense classes during the Tzuyu incident when I had a number of Chinese and South Korean students and one Taiwanese student in the same class), one thing I can guarantee is that people who are thinking through their strategic and diplomatic choices from a Western mindset are trying to apply chess logic to a go match.
    This is one of those areas where I’m happy to defer to the experts, and one of those places where we can only hope that Biden has enough competent people left at the State Department to do the cultural lifting for him.

  146. With over a decade of teaching students from China (including a few tense classes during the Tzuyu incident when I had a number of Chinese and South Korean students and one Taiwanese student in the same class), one thing I can guarantee is that people who are thinking through their strategic and diplomatic choices from a Western mindset are trying to apply chess logic to a go match.
    This is one of those areas where I’m happy to defer to the experts, and one of those places where we can only hope that Biden has enough competent people left at the State Department to do the cultural lifting for him.

  147. From a practical POV, would a theoretical food blockade of China even work, if done from the sea side only? I do not know how the Chinese relationship with Russia looks right now. I could at least imagine that Putin would see it as an opportunity (annoying the US, making a profit, improving the relationship with Xi (should it be bad at the moment) etc.).

  148. From a practical POV, would a theoretical food blockade of China even work, if done from the sea side only? I do not know how the Chinese relationship with Russia looks right now. I could at least imagine that Putin would see it as an opportunity (annoying the US, making a profit, improving the relationship with Xi (should it be bad at the moment) etc.).

  149. Back to drummers for a moment, I really, really like Manu Katche’s work with Peter Gabriel.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRLjpXLEp1A
    And in rather a different being, with Sting. This performance also has a special place in my heart. The original “All This Time” is a chilly, bitter reflection on futility, written not long after Sting’s father died.
    Teachers told the Romans built this place
    They built a wall and a temple and an edge of the empire garrison town
    They lived and they died
    They prayed to their gods, but the stone gods did not make a sound
    And their empire crumbles ’till all that was left
    Were the stones the workmen found
    It’s long been a favorite of mine to listen to in times of grief, because it’s got nothing but the truth. There’s more and other truths, too – it’s not the whole story – but it’s as bullshit-free as anything I know.
    But one of those other truths is that the heaviest storms of grief do settle. Not that it stops mattering, or that you ever stop missing those whom you loved, but it subsides. You integrate it, and becomes less a thing done to you than part of who you are and will be.
    Which leads to this performance. The original came out in 1990. This was recorded at Sting’s home in Tuscany in 2011. And here the grief is integrated. The music is here to remind us that yeah, life really does go on, and the very thing was a gaping wound is now also a celebration.
    https://youtu.be/Q_OlaPBwfjY
    Good stuff for bad times.

  150. Back to drummers for a moment, I really, really like Manu Katche’s work with Peter Gabriel.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRLjpXLEp1A
    And in rather a different being, with Sting. This performance also has a special place in my heart. The original “All This Time” is a chilly, bitter reflection on futility, written not long after Sting’s father died.
    Teachers told the Romans built this place
    They built a wall and a temple and an edge of the empire garrison town
    They lived and they died
    They prayed to their gods, but the stone gods did not make a sound
    And their empire crumbles ’till all that was left
    Were the stones the workmen found
    It’s long been a favorite of mine to listen to in times of grief, because it’s got nothing but the truth. There’s more and other truths, too – it’s not the whole story – but it’s as bullshit-free as anything I know.
    But one of those other truths is that the heaviest storms of grief do settle. Not that it stops mattering, or that you ever stop missing those whom you loved, but it subsides. You integrate it, and becomes less a thing done to you than part of who you are and will be.
    Which leads to this performance. The original came out in 1990. This was recorded at Sting’s home in Tuscany in 2011. And here the grief is integrated. The music is here to remind us that yeah, life really does go on, and the very thing was a gaping wound is now also a celebration.
    https://youtu.be/Q_OlaPBwfjY
    Good stuff for bad times.

  153. Again, apologies if I am too aggressive with my reply, it is just that China is a lot closer to home for me.
    No problem, lj, and I’m fully aware that it’s a wholly different ballgame, if one is actually affected by these matters – I get that with discussions about the ME.
    I’m just wary of the sabre rattling, the hypocrisy and narcissism of ‘the west’ and the unhelpful bluster (Biden called Xi “a thug” on prime TV).
    No question that there are a lot of bad actors out there and I am the first to point out human rights abuses.
    But ‘we’ have lost a lot of moral capital, especially over the past two decades, and we also have to face the reality that the global power structure is shifting away from us. So, assuming benign intentions on our part, our actual options are limited and we would be wise to play the long game.

  154. Again, apologies if I am too aggressive with my reply, it is just that China is a lot closer to home for me.
    No problem, lj, and I’m fully aware that it’s a wholly different ballgame, if one is actually affected by these matters – I get that with discussions about the ME.
    I’m just wary of the sabre rattling, the hypocrisy and narcissism of ‘the west’ and the unhelpful bluster (Biden called Xi “a thug” on prime TV).
    No question that there are a lot of bad actors out there and I am the first to point out human rights abuses.
    But ‘we’ have lost a lot of moral capital, especially over the past two decades, and we also have to face the reality that the global power structure is shifting away from us. So, assuming benign intentions on our part, our actual options are limited and we would be wise to play the long game.

  157. Back to drummers for a moment, I really, really like Manu Katche’s work with Peter Gabriel.
    plus, Tony Levin rising out of the stage like the god he is.

  158. Back to drummers for a moment, I really, really like Manu Katche’s work with Peter Gabriel.
    plus, Tony Levin rising out of the stage like the god he is.

  159. Katche is a great drummer!
    As an aside, and speaking of patents and copyrights, Sting still, to this day, apparently makes something like $2,000 a day from “Every Breath You Take”. That song was released almost 40 years ago.
    And a lot of that is from a sample of the guitar part that he didn’t even write, that got used in a rap song. I’m thinking Andy Summers, guitarist for the Police, is kicking himself in the @ss right about now.
    Always keep your publishing, kids!!

  160. Katche is a great drummer!
    As an aside, and speaking of patents and copyrights, Sting still, to this day, apparently makes something like $2,000 a day from “Every Breath You Take”. That song was released almost 40 years ago.
    And a lot of that is from a sample of the guitar part that he didn’t even write, that got used in a rap song. I’m thinking Andy Summers, guitarist for the Police, is kicking himself in the @ss right about now.
    Always keep your publishing, kids!!

  161. i read Summers’ memoirs a couple of years back, and, wow, he has no love for Sting. basically says he could tell almost immediately how self-centered and ambitious Sting was.
    likewise, in his memoirs, Chris Franz thinks David Byrne is a pretty rotten guy. but in his latest book, Bryne calls Franz his friend.
    moral: bands are a good way to make lifetime enemies.

  162. i read Summers’ memoirs a couple of years back, and, wow, he has no love for Sting. basically says he could tell almost immediately how self-centered and ambitious Sting was.
    likewise, in his memoirs, Chris Franz thinks David Byrne is a pretty rotten guy. but in his latest book, Bryne calls Franz his friend.
    moral: bands are a good way to make lifetime enemies.

  163. The new Macs with Apple’s M1 use a RISC design that enables more low-level parallel processing than the CISC design of Intel and AMD processors.
    Apple also put a number of dedicated special-purpose coprocessors on the M1 chip. It no longer matters how fast the ARM cores can run the current video codec algorithms: there’s dedicated special-purpose hardware for that. It no longer matters how fast the ARM cores can run a variety of common signal processing algorithms: there’s dedicated special-purpose DSP hardware. It no longer matters how fast the ARM cores can run common neural network code: there’s dedicated NN processors. With the added advantage that if the user isn’t running video, or compressed audio, or an AI application, those parts of the hardware can be completely powered down.
    I am an old enough geek to remember when integrated circuit technology crossed the border between “How can we get enough transistors on the chip to do X?” to “We can put so many more transistors on the chip, what special features should we add?”

  164. The new Macs with Apple’s M1 use a RISC design that enables more low-level parallel processing than the CISC design of Intel and AMD processors.
    Apple also put a number of dedicated special-purpose coprocessors on the M1 chip. It no longer matters how fast the ARM cores can run the current video codec algorithms: there’s dedicated special-purpose hardware for that. It no longer matters how fast the ARM cores can run a variety of common signal processing algorithms: there’s dedicated special-purpose DSP hardware. It no longer matters how fast the ARM cores can run common neural network code: there’s dedicated NN processors. With the added advantage that if the user isn’t running video, or compressed audio, or an AI application, those parts of the hardware can be completely powered down.
    I am an old enough geek to remember when integrated circuit technology crossed the border between “How can we get enough transistors on the chip to do X?” to “We can put so many more transistors on the chip, what special features should we add?”

  165. Well…
    “The legislation says any interactive computer service provider—that means social media giants, small blogs, podcast hosting services, app stores, consumer review platforms, independent political forums, crowdfunding, and Patreon-style sites, dating apps, newsletter services, and much more—will lose Section 230 protection if they fail to report any known user activity that might be deemed “suspicious.”
    “Suspicious” content is defined as     any post, private message, comment, tag, transaction, or “any other user-generated content or transmission” that government officials later determine “commits, facilitates, incites, promotes, or otherwise assists the commission of a major crime.” Major crimes are defined as anything involving violence, domestic, or international terrorism, or a “serious drug offense.”
    For each suspicious post, services must submit a Suspicious Transmission Activity Report (STAR) within 30 days, providing the user’s name, location, and other identifying information, as well as any relevant metadata.”
    ‘See Something, Say Something Online Act’ Punishes Big Tech for Not Snitching: Plus: Oregon decriminalizes hard drugs, Kroger closes stores over hazard pay rule, and more…

  166. Well…
    “The legislation says any interactive computer service provider—that means social media giants, small blogs, podcast hosting services, app stores, consumer review platforms, independent political forums, crowdfunding, and Patreon-style sites, dating apps, newsletter services, and much more—will lose Section 230 protection if they fail to report any known user activity that might be deemed “suspicious.”
    “Suspicious” content is defined as     any post, private message, comment, tag, transaction, or “any other user-generated content or transmission” that government officials later determine “commits, facilitates, incites, promotes, or otherwise assists the commission of a major crime.” Major crimes are defined as anything involving violence, domestic, or international terrorism, or a “serious drug offense.”
    For each suspicious post, services must submit a Suspicious Transmission Activity Report (STAR) within 30 days, providing the user’s name, location, and other identifying information, as well as any relevant metadata.”
    ‘See Something, Say Something Online Act’ Punishes Big Tech for Not Snitching: Plus: Oregon decriminalizes hard drugs, Kroger closes stores over hazard pay rule, and more…

  167. I went to late elementary, junior high and early high school with Chris Franz.
    Very nice guy. Played trombone, I think it was, in the marching band.
    He recruited Byrne for the Talking Heads.
    I loved The Police and if Stingless, no Police, but neither do I trust anyone who announces their own nickname with a warning about using anything-but henceforth.
    Self-anointed nicknames kind of take the fun out of nicknaming, which has to come from elsewhere, your buds or your agent, and have an element of irony in its spot-on application.
    Stan the Man did not one day show up in the dugout and announce his nickname to his teammates and his coaches.
    If he had, his nickname would have soon become Stan the Asshole.
    Blog handles are of course a different matter.
    McCartney at one point called Lennon a maneuvering swine, while Lennon and Harrison called McCartney every other name, not including Hari Krishna.
    Ringo was always Richie to the other three.
    They loved each other.
    Fame and fortune and power, in business, and the business of artistic creation tend to encourage the maneuvering swine in a person, the maneuvered stakes being so high.
    And yes, always keep your publishing and don’t sell it for a song to the professional maneuvering swine in suits.
    All of the above band mates love one another.
    I have a brother who hates me (but he hates everyone except our long-gone Dad; that’s his story and the hard head is sticking to it) and I hate him, bad water inexplicably having passed under blown up bridges.
    But I love him like a brother.
    The music is the bottom line thing.
    In the end, we have the music out of the crucibles of the artists’ petty bullshit.
    And so do they and they know it.
    In a very late business meeting, McCartney pointed out to the other three, that yeah, he was a hard head, but when it came down to it, all he wanted was John, George, and Ringo in a studio making those singular glorious sounds and all else was pointless distraction.
    Three weeks later, they were kaputnik.

  168. I went to late elementary, junior high and early high school with Chris Franz.
    Very nice guy. Played trombone, I think it was, in the marching band.
    He recruited Byrne for the Talking Heads.
    I loved The Police and if Stingless, no Police, but neither do I trust anyone who announces their own nickname with a warning about using anything-but henceforth.
    Self-anointed nicknames kind of take the fun out of nicknaming, which has to come from elsewhere, your buds or your agent, and have an element of irony in its spot-on application.
    Stan the Man did not one day show up in the dugout and announce his nickname to his teammates and his coaches.
    If he had, his nickname would have soon become Stan the Asshole.
    Blog handles are of course a different matter.
    McCartney at one point called Lennon a maneuvering swine, while Lennon and Harrison called McCartney every other name, not including Hari Krishna.
    Ringo was always Richie to the other three.
    They loved each other.
    Fame and fortune and power, in business, and the business of artistic creation tend to encourage the maneuvering swine in a person, the maneuvered stakes being so high.
    And yes, always keep your publishing and don’t sell it for a song to the professional maneuvering swine in suits.
    All of the above band mates love one another.
    I have a brother who hates me (but he hates everyone except our long-gone Dad; that’s his story and the hard head is sticking to it) and I hate him, bad water inexplicably having passed under blown up bridges.
    But I love him like a brother.
    The music is the bottom line thing.
    In the end, we have the music out of the crucibles of the artists’ petty bullshit.
    And so do they and they know it.
    In a very late business meeting, McCartney pointed out to the other three, that yeah, he was a hard head, but when it came down to it, all he wanted was John, George, and Ringo in a studio making those singular glorious sounds and all else was pointless distraction.
    Three weeks later, they were kaputnik.

  169. See Something, Say Something Online Act’ Punishes Big Tech for Not Snitching
    So, small-scale blogging handled by one or a few individuals is gone. Lawyers, Guns & Money as an example. Enough comments where people say things that count as suspicious. Me, for example, there and here occasionally, with my assertions that a peaceful partition of the states is inevitable. (Is that sedition? Is it if I plan how to get 38 states to agree to amend the Constitution so it can happen?) Too many comments to guarantee that they will get scanned and the forms filled out and submitted in a timely fashion by the unpaid front page authors, plus the whole name and location requirement.
    Long ago, when one of the things I did was write position papers on various technologies inside a giant telecom company, I said that (a) IP was going to win over ATM (asynchronous transfer mode, not the teller machines), (b) one of IP’s strengths from the user perspective was anonymity, and (c) one of IP’s great weaknesses from law enforcement’s perspective was anonymity.

  170. See Something, Say Something Online Act’ Punishes Big Tech for Not Snitching
    So, small-scale blogging handled by one or a few individuals is gone. Lawyers, Guns & Money as an example. Enough comments where people say things that count as suspicious. Me, for example, there and here occasionally, with my assertions that a peaceful partition of the states is inevitable. (Is that sedition? Is it if I plan how to get 38 states to agree to amend the Constitution so it can happen?) Too many comments to guarantee that they will get scanned and the forms filled out and submitted in a timely fashion by the unpaid front page authors, plus the whole name and location requirement.
    Long ago, when one of the things I did was write position papers on various technologies inside a giant telecom company, I said that (a) IP was going to win over ATM (asynchronous transfer mode, not the teller machines), (b) one of IP’s strengths from the user perspective was anonymity, and (c) one of IP’s great weaknesses from law enforcement’s perspective was anonymity.

  171. Self-anointed nicknames kind of take the fun out of nicknaming, which has to come from elsewhere, your buds or your agent, and have an element of irony in its spot-on application.
    I had a nickname bestowed upon me in high school. Innocuous, but quickly used by essentially everyone.
    Eating dinner at a friend’s house once, his mom turned to me and said, “This is really embarrassing, but Tom (her son) and all of your friends only use your nickname and I’ve forgotten what your real name is.”
    When I went off to college, I had to learn to respond to “Hey, Mike!” again.

  172. Self-anointed nicknames kind of take the fun out of nicknaming, which has to come from elsewhere, your buds or your agent, and have an element of irony in its spot-on application.
    I had a nickname bestowed upon me in high school. Innocuous, but quickly used by essentially everyone.
    Eating dinner at a friend’s house once, his mom turned to me and said, “This is really embarrassing, but Tom (her son) and all of your friends only use your nickname and I’ve forgotten what your real name is.”
    When I went off to college, I had to learn to respond to “Hey, Mike!” again.

  177. On the topic of Sting and his bandmates and songwriting credits…Stuart Copeland, in one of his documentaries for a solo project recounted an argument that he and Andy had with Sting over residuals (IIRC, during the reunion tour). At the height of the argument Stuart sarcastically says to Sting: “Andy and I want a villa, too.”
    To which Sting throws back: “It’s not a villa, Stu, it’s a palazzo.”

  178. On the topic of Sting and his bandmates and songwriting credits…Stuart Copeland, in one of his documentaries for a solo project recounted an argument that he and Andy had with Sting over residuals (IIRC, during the reunion tour). At the height of the argument Stuart sarcastically says to Sting: “Andy and I want a villa, too.”
    To which Sting throws back: “It’s not a villa, Stu, it’s a palazzo.”

  179. plus, Tony Levin rising out of the stage like the god he is.
    He really is amazing, and one of those folks – along with Steve Rhodes, rocking that Hawaiian shirt in that video – that pretty much everybody has a good word for, it seems.
    I’ve had the new Liquid Tension Experiment album on a fair amount lately, and my cats seem fine with Levin’s bass playing more loudly than I generally play music. 🙂

  180. plus, Tony Levin rising out of the stage like the god he is.
    He really is amazing, and one of those folks – along with Steve Rhodes, rocking that Hawaiian shirt in that video – that pretty much everybody has a good word for, it seems.
    I’ve had the new Liquid Tension Experiment album on a fair amount lately, and my cats seem fine with Levin’s bass playing more loudly than I generally play music. 🙂

  181. See Something, Say Something Online Act’ Punishes Big Tech for Not Snitching
    My first question would have to be: How is the host supposed to police it? I mean, maybe cleek has time to read all the comments on his blog. It might even be possible to do that here. But on something bigger? Gonna have to automate it somehow. (Or hire every unemployed, and every underemployed, individual in the country.)
    And that’s before you get to the elliptical expressions, obscure references, etc. that some of us use rather routinely. At that point you’re talking one impressive AI system. Government intelligence agencies may be up to that; local message boards, not so much.
    Of course, being mostly lawyers, not computer geeks, the members of Congress don’t know. And likely don’t care. And won’t . . . until they discover that “Big Tech” has the resources, and lawyers, to skate around it. But their constituents are the ones getting burned.
    All of that is before you consider that deeming something “suspicious”, rather than protected political speech, is far easier with 20/20 hindsight. In short, it won’t work. Can’t work.

  182. See Something, Say Something Online Act’ Punishes Big Tech for Not Snitching
    My first question would have to be: How is the host supposed to police it? I mean, maybe cleek has time to read all the comments on his blog. It might even be possible to do that here. But on something bigger? Gonna have to automate it somehow. (Or hire every unemployed, and every underemployed, individual in the country.)
    And that’s before you get to the elliptical expressions, obscure references, etc. that some of us use rather routinely. At that point you’re talking one impressive AI system. Government intelligence agencies may be up to that; local message boards, not so much.
    Of course, being mostly lawyers, not computer geeks, the members of Congress don’t know. And likely don’t care. And won’t . . . until they discover that “Big Tech” has the resources, and lawyers, to skate around it. But their constituents are the ones getting burned.
    All of that is before you consider that deeming something “suspicious”, rather than protected political speech, is far easier with 20/20 hindsight. In short, it won’t work. Can’t work.

  185. In many areas of the United States, installing a wind or solar farm is now cheaper than simply buying fuel for an existing fossil fuel-based generator. And that’s dramatically changing the electricity market in the US and requiring a lot of people to update prior predictions. That has motivated a group of researchers to take a new look at the costs and challenges of getting the entire US to carbon neutrality.
    By building a model of the energy market for the entire US, the researchers explored what it will take to get the country to the point where its energy use has no net emissions in 2050—and they even looked at a scenario where emissions are negative. They found that, as you’d expect, the costs drop dramatically—to less than 1 percent of the GDP, even before counting the costs avoided by preventing the worst impacts of climate change. And, as an added bonus, we would pay less for our power.
    but remember, Democrats want to cripple the US by switching away from fossil fuels.

  186. In many areas of the United States, installing a wind or solar farm is now cheaper than simply buying fuel for an existing fossil fuel-based generator. And that’s dramatically changing the electricity market in the US and requiring a lot of people to update prior predictions. That has motivated a group of researchers to take a new look at the costs and challenges of getting the entire US to carbon neutrality.
    By building a model of the energy market for the entire US, the researchers explored what it will take to get the country to the point where its energy use has no net emissions in 2050—and they even looked at a scenario where emissions are negative. They found that, as you’d expect, the costs drop dramatically—to less than 1 percent of the GDP, even before counting the costs avoided by preventing the worst impacts of climate change. And, as an added bonus, we would pay less for our power.
    but remember, Democrats want to cripple the US by switching away from fossil fuels.

  187. In short, it won’t work. Can’t work.
    that’s what it sounds like to me, too.
    i doubt it will pass, for that reason.

  188. In short, it won’t work. Can’t work.
    that’s what it sounds like to me, too.
    i doubt it will pass, for that reason.

  189. installing a wind or solar farm is now cheaper than simply buying fuel for an existing fossil fuel-based generator.
    The generation system, sure. I suspect the critical factor will turn out to be batteries to supply times, specifically evenings, when those new power sources are short. Yes, batteries are getting better and cheaper. But they’re still further behind than generation.

  190. installing a wind or solar farm is now cheaper than simply buying fuel for an existing fossil fuel-based generator.
    The generation system, sure. I suspect the critical factor will turn out to be batteries to supply times, specifically evenings, when those new power sources are short. Yes, batteries are getting better and cheaper. But they’re still further behind than generation.

  191. moral: bands are a good way to make lifetime enemies.
    it’s all fun and games until there’s money on the table.

  192. moral: bands are a good way to make lifetime enemies.
    it’s all fun and games until there’s money on the table.

  199. In other news, a perfect example today of a “cool” gambit by the Russian state, in the recently discussed Lincoln sense.
    Navalny is sentenced to be imprisoned for two and a half years in a labour camp after a court hearing. The charge? He breached his parole conditions from a previous (framed) conviction. How? He was in hospital in Germany, having been poisoned with Novichok by the Russian state.

  200. In other news, a perfect example today of a “cool” gambit by the Russian state, in the recently discussed Lincoln sense.
    Navalny is sentenced to be imprisoned for two and a half years in a labour camp after a court hearing. The charge? He breached his parole conditions from a previous (framed) conviction. How? He was in hospital in Germany, having been poisoned with Novichok by the Russian state.

  203. Apropos our ongoing discussion of history, critical theory, and systemic oppression:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/02/magazine/classics-greece-rome-whiteness.html
    I spent two intense years at a Great Books college in the ’90s before running out of money and having to complete my degree a few years later at a state university, so I get both the argument that a classics education can fuel a political awakening that turns its tools towards an institutional self-critique, and also the argument that Dr. Peralta puts forward that the discipline is bound up in structural racism, patriarchy, and colonialism and needs to be reconfigured if we are to ever actually make any headway as a society towards rooting out the barriers to equal justice that are built into our institutions and our systems of thought.
    (Hooray for paragraph long sentences!)
    I wish I had the time to take this on in a more nuanced and developed response, but the quarter system waits for no one. But this long piece is well worth a read and a place in our ongoing squabbles.

  204. Apropos our ongoing discussion of history, critical theory, and systemic oppression:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/02/magazine/classics-greece-rome-whiteness.html
    I spent two intense years at a Great Books college in the ’90s before running out of money and having to complete my degree a few years later at a state university, so I get both the argument that a classics education can fuel a political awakening that turns its tools towards an institutional self-critique, and also the argument that Dr. Peralta puts forward that the discipline is bound up in structural racism, patriarchy, and colonialism and needs to be reconfigured if we are to ever actually make any headway as a society towards rooting out the barriers to equal justice that are built into our institutions and our systems of thought.
    (Hooray for paragraph long sentences!)
    I wish I had the time to take this on in a more nuanced and developed response, but the quarter system waits for no one. But this long piece is well worth a read and a place in our ongoing squabbles.

  205. I’m confused. Is the discipline that needs to be reconfigured a classics education**? Or what?
    ** If so, I have to say it’s serious chutzpa to say that this is what needs to change for the whole society to make any headway.

  206. I’m confused. Is the discipline that needs to be reconfigured a classics education**? Or what?
    ** If so, I have to say it’s serious chutzpa to say that this is what needs to change for the whole society to make any headway.

  207. I’m confused. Is the discipline that needs to be reconfigured a classics education**? Or what?
    ** If so, I have to say it’s serious chutzpa to say that this is what needs to change for the whole society to make any headway.
    Changing the discipline is one step in actually interrogating the cultural assumptions and habits of mind that justify Western superiority and frame the world in ways that make it easier for us to excuse injustice.
    The article makes an argument for just how much of our view of history and government is tangled up in Enlightenment paradigms that are built on notions of white Western supremacy. Trying to make those views color-blind and inclusive doesn’t undo the ways in which the systems built on these views perpetuate the inequalities.

  208. I’m confused. Is the discipline that needs to be reconfigured a classics education**? Or what?
    ** If so, I have to say it’s serious chutzpa to say that this is what needs to change for the whole society to make any headway.
    Changing the discipline is one step in actually interrogating the cultural assumptions and habits of mind that justify Western superiority and frame the world in ways that make it easier for us to excuse injustice.
    The article makes an argument for just how much of our view of history and government is tangled up in Enlightenment paradigms that are built on notions of white Western supremacy. Trying to make those views color-blind and inclusive doesn’t undo the ways in which the systems built on these views perpetuate the inequalities.

  209. Nous, thanks for the interesting and uncomfortable read. This may just be because I have some investment in it, but to blow up classics is to basically say we need to start from scratch.
    I remember an article JanieM posted about iirc how people ALWAYS propose a new computer language because the old one doesn’t do what they want it to. It might be strange to compare a field like classics (originally, the only field) to computer languages, but the impulse is the same.
    Taking that, Classics isn’t a problem because of something inherent in classics, it is a problem because people are a problem. Perhaps it is too big a problem and you just have to tear it all down and rebuild. But given that you have to use to bricks of the old building, so it seems like you are either throwing out a lot of good stuff or you are just importing the old problems into the new field.
    Enlightenment paradigms do have problems, but in some sense, they got us to this point. Identifying those things that brought us here is pretty important, at least to me, and ignoring that history would seem to me to be doing exactly what we don’t want to do, which is to forget how we got to where we are.
    My 2 yen

  210. Nous, thanks for the interesting and uncomfortable read. This may just be because I have some investment in it, but to blow up classics is to basically say we need to start from scratch.
    I remember an article JanieM posted about iirc how people ALWAYS propose a new computer language because the old one doesn’t do what they want it to. It might be strange to compare a field like classics (originally, the only field) to computer languages, but the impulse is the same.
    Taking that, Classics isn’t a problem because of something inherent in classics, it is a problem because people are a problem. Perhaps it is too big a problem and you just have to tear it all down and rebuild. But given that you have to use to bricks of the old building, so it seems like you are either throwing out a lot of good stuff or you are just importing the old problems into the new field.
    Enlightenment paradigms do have problems, but in some sense, they got us to this point. Identifying those things that brought us here is pretty important, at least to me, and ignoring that history would seem to me to be doing exactly what we don’t want to do, which is to forget how we got to where we are.
    My 2 yen

  211. Any selection of texts that foregrounds a particular set of correspondences and intertextuality is going to introduce biases into the resulting narratives. In this case, if we decenter the idea of Westernness, we also decenter the particular set of connections that give the impression of narrative continuity.
    A discipline formed around a particular selection criteria from “the archive” will end up with a discourse community that has different values and a different understanding of center and periphery and will be a different discipline as a result from one with another selection criteria.
    I spent enough time writing SQL queries and doing data analysis from corporate databases to get a sense of how much the selection criteria for a particular table can affect the overall meaning drawn from the data, and also how much *not capturing a particular set of data* can prevent us from getting a clear view of how a system works.
    So I can see how Peralta might be suspicious of any conversations developed over time from a table as highly compromised by bias as the selection of texts in the Classics, and how he might be inclined to start from a different selection of texts and assumptions in the hopes of reducing the bias that repeatedly forces BIPOC into a periphery that may well be simply a self-serving selection effect.
    And any class, or discipline, or policy approach is going to have to start with a particular set of selections from “the archive” by necessity, given the governing structures modern universities.

  212. Any selection of texts that foregrounds a particular set of correspondences and intertextuality is going to introduce biases into the resulting narratives. In this case, if we decenter the idea of Westernness, we also decenter the particular set of connections that give the impression of narrative continuity.
    A discipline formed around a particular selection criteria from “the archive” will end up with a discourse community that has different values and a different understanding of center and periphery and will be a different discipline as a result from one with another selection criteria.
    I spent enough time writing SQL queries and doing data analysis from corporate databases to get a sense of how much the selection criteria for a particular table can affect the overall meaning drawn from the data, and also how much *not capturing a particular set of data* can prevent us from getting a clear view of how a system works.
    So I can see how Peralta might be suspicious of any conversations developed over time from a table as highly compromised by bias as the selection of texts in the Classics, and how he might be inclined to start from a different selection of texts and assumptions in the hopes of reducing the bias that repeatedly forces BIPOC into a periphery that may well be simply a self-serving selection effect.
    And any class, or discipline, or policy approach is going to have to start with a particular set of selections from “the archive” by necessity, given the governing structures modern universities.

  213. But there is a supply problem here. Greek and Latin texts are not being created now and we have the ones we have, which is why we go all weak kneed when someone finds a scrap of papyrus or figures out some hi tech gizmo to reveal previously unknown texts.
    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/buried-ash-vesuvius-scrolls-are-being-read-new-xray-technique-180969358/
    Your explanation is great and I suspect that Peralta is at a point where he feels (from reading the article) that choosing different texts would not really make that much of a difference and it is hard to imagine choosing a different Iliad or Odyssey. I suppose the question becomes whether the archive is so biased that we can’t draw anything useful from it or if we can.
    However, you don’t read these texts as arbiters of behavior for the most part, you read them to get an insight into minds from 2000 years ago. And with Homer, more like 3000 years ago. If Peralta came to the conclusion that it was hopeless, I’d certainly want him to lay out his evidence, but from the sounds of his class, it sounds like he doesn’t, he just thinks that one should approach these texts not as something handed down, but as something one should interrogate.
    And when I think about interrogating, I think about Emily Wilson’s new translation of the Odyssey
    https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/11/20/16651634/odyssey-emily-wilson-translation-first-woman-english
    As a woman, Wilson believes she comes to the Odyssey with a different perspective than translators who have gone before her. “Female translators often stand at a critical distance when approaching authors who are not only male, but also deeply embedded in a canon that has for many centuries been imagined as belonging to men,” she wrote in a recent essay at the Guardian. She called translating Homer as a woman an experience of “intimate alienation.”
    “Earlier translators are not as uncomfortable with the text as I am,” she explained to me, “and I like that I’m uncomfortable.” Part of her goal with the translation was to make readers uncomfortable too — with the fact that Odysseus owns slaves, and with the inequities in his marriage to Penelope. Making these aspects of the poem visible, rather than glossing over them, “makes it a more interesting text,” she said.
    (A lot of other stories have her as the first woman to translate the Odyssey, but she isn’t, she is just the first one to do it in English, pointing to another blind spot that can often be difficult to get around.)
    The Guardian article quoted delves into this a bit more, talking about when women take on the classics and what results
    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/jul/07/women-classics-translation-female-scholars-translators
    Anyway, that is my defense of the classics fwiw.

  214. But there is a supply problem here. Greek and Latin texts are not being created now and we have the ones we have, which is why we go all weak kneed when someone finds a scrap of papyrus or figures out some hi tech gizmo to reveal previously unknown texts.
    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/buried-ash-vesuvius-scrolls-are-being-read-new-xray-technique-180969358/
    Your explanation is great and I suspect that Peralta is at a point where he feels (from reading the article) that choosing different texts would not really make that much of a difference and it is hard to imagine choosing a different Iliad or Odyssey. I suppose the question becomes whether the archive is so biased that we can’t draw anything useful from it or if we can.
    However, you don’t read these texts as arbiters of behavior for the most part, you read them to get an insight into minds from 2000 years ago. And with Homer, more like 3000 years ago. If Peralta came to the conclusion that it was hopeless, I’d certainly want him to lay out his evidence, but from the sounds of his class, it sounds like he doesn’t, he just thinks that one should approach these texts not as something handed down, but as something one should interrogate.
    And when I think about interrogating, I think about Emily Wilson’s new translation of the Odyssey
    https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/11/20/16651634/odyssey-emily-wilson-translation-first-woman-english
    As a woman, Wilson believes she comes to the Odyssey with a different perspective than translators who have gone before her. “Female translators often stand at a critical distance when approaching authors who are not only male, but also deeply embedded in a canon that has for many centuries been imagined as belonging to men,” she wrote in a recent essay at the Guardian. She called translating Homer as a woman an experience of “intimate alienation.”
    “Earlier translators are not as uncomfortable with the text as I am,” she explained to me, “and I like that I’m uncomfortable.” Part of her goal with the translation was to make readers uncomfortable too — with the fact that Odysseus owns slaves, and with the inequities in his marriage to Penelope. Making these aspects of the poem visible, rather than glossing over them, “makes it a more interesting text,” she said.
    (A lot of other stories have her as the first woman to translate the Odyssey, but she isn’t, she is just the first one to do it in English, pointing to another blind spot that can often be difficult to get around.)
    The Guardian article quoted delves into this a bit more, talking about when women take on the classics and what results
    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/jul/07/women-classics-translation-female-scholars-translators
    Anyway, that is my defense of the classics fwiw.

  217. a couple of yen of my own.
    it strikes me that the Greek and Roman societies of antiquity are not a good model for the United States, at least, and probably for any modern nation or society.
    All people are created equal, and are endowed by their creator with inalienable rights *is not* a statement that anyone in classical era Greece or Rome would have held. Equality for all people under the law is not a Greek or Roman concept.
    Both of those societies were based on clear and legally enforced distinctions between different categories of human beings. The civic rights and privileges of citizenship were not universally, or even widely, held.
    It’s worth remembering that the word fascism refers to fasces, the Roman symbol of state authority.
    “The West” in the sense that word is normally used means Europe, and nations and societies rooted in European history. Europe, as an entity with a distinct identity as such, doesn’t really begin until probably the middle ages – really, until almost the turn of the first millenium CE. There are definitely legacies carried forward in terms of Roman language and law, particularly in Continental Europe, and in terms of Greek science (largely via Muslim scholarship), but beginning with the later middle ages I’d say Europe evolved an identity of its own, distinct from the more or less exhausted Roman identity of late antiquity.
    The United States, specifically, is a society nominally predicated on principles rooted in the European enlightenment, and which are even further removed from the values of antiquity. And those principles have become something of an international standard, at this point.
    As far as a connection between Greek and Roman antiquity and ‘whiteness’, if it exists at all, it exists only in the minds of bigots, who see the kind of caste systems typical in Greek and Roman societies as attractive, and who want to use skin color as the marker of who does and does not deserve a place among the privileged.
    100 or even 50 years ago, most of those folks would likely not have recognized actual Greeks or Romans as fully ‘white’.
    I’ll also say that the focus on Greek and Roman antiquity tends to blind us to the remarkable contributions and achievements of other societies, both ancient and not so ancient. ‘The West’ was not and still is not the only player on the field.

  218. a couple of yen of my own.
    it strikes me that the Greek and Roman societies of antiquity are not a good model for the United States, at least, and probably for any modern nation or society.
    All people are created equal, and are endowed by their creator with inalienable rights *is not* a statement that anyone in classical era Greece or Rome would have held. Equality for all people under the law is not a Greek or Roman concept.
    Both of those societies were based on clear and legally enforced distinctions between different categories of human beings. The civic rights and privileges of citizenship were not universally, or even widely, held.
    It’s worth remembering that the word fascism refers to fasces, the Roman symbol of state authority.
    “The West” in the sense that word is normally used means Europe, and nations and societies rooted in European history. Europe, as an entity with a distinct identity as such, doesn’t really begin until probably the middle ages – really, until almost the turn of the first millenium CE. There are definitely legacies carried forward in terms of Roman language and law, particularly in Continental Europe, and in terms of Greek science (largely via Muslim scholarship), but beginning with the later middle ages I’d say Europe evolved an identity of its own, distinct from the more or less exhausted Roman identity of late antiquity.
    The United States, specifically, is a society nominally predicated on principles rooted in the European enlightenment, and which are even further removed from the values of antiquity. And those principles have become something of an international standard, at this point.
    As far as a connection between Greek and Roman antiquity and ‘whiteness’, if it exists at all, it exists only in the minds of bigots, who see the kind of caste systems typical in Greek and Roman societies as attractive, and who want to use skin color as the marker of who does and does not deserve a place among the privileged.
    100 or even 50 years ago, most of those folks would likely not have recognized actual Greeks or Romans as fully ‘white’.
    I’ll also say that the focus on Greek and Roman antiquity tends to blind us to the remarkable contributions and achievements of other societies, both ancient and not so ancient. ‘The West’ was not and still is not the only player on the field.

  219. speaking of new translations by women.. i recently read a translation of Beowolf by Maria Dahvana Headley that starts:

    Bro! Tell me we still know how to speak of kings!
    In the old days,   everyone knew what men were: brave, bold, glory-bound. Only   stories now, but I’ll sound the Spear-Danes’ song, hoarded for hungry times.

    it’s certainly a more accessible translation than the one i remember from high school. but the way she jumps in and out of the ‘Bro!” vibe is a bit disorienting:

    For twelve snow-seasons, Grendel reigned over evening.
      Hrothgar suffered, Heorot buffeted, no hero to hold it.
      Every outsider talked shit, telling of legends and losses.
      Hrothgar’s hall became a morgue, dark marks on floorboards.
      No songs, no scops, no searing meat, no blazing fire.
      And Grendel, incomplete, raided relentlessly.
      Dude, this was what they call a blood feud, a war 150    that tore a hole through the hearts of the Danes.
      Grendel was broken, and would not brook peace,   desist in dealing deaths, or die himself.   He had no use for stealth—he came near-nightly,   and never negotiated. The old counselors knew better   than to expect a settlement in silver from him.
      Ringless, Grendel’s fingers, kingless,   his country. Be it wizened vizier or beardless boy,   he hunted them across foggy moors, an owl   mist-diving for mice, grist-grinding their tails 160    in his teeth. A hellion’s home is anywhere   good men fear to tread; who knows the dread this   marauder mapped?

    Dude!
    it was interesting, though.

  220. speaking of new translations by women.. i recently read a translation of Beowolf by Maria Dahvana Headley that starts:

    Bro! Tell me we still know how to speak of kings!
    In the old days,   everyone knew what men were: brave, bold, glory-bound. Only   stories now, but I’ll sound the Spear-Danes’ song, hoarded for hungry times.

    it’s certainly a more accessible translation than the one i remember from high school. but the way she jumps in and out of the ‘Bro!” vibe is a bit disorienting:

    For twelve snow-seasons, Grendel reigned over evening.
      Hrothgar suffered, Heorot buffeted, no hero to hold it.
      Every outsider talked shit, telling of legends and losses.
      Hrothgar’s hall became a morgue, dark marks on floorboards.
      No songs, no scops, no searing meat, no blazing fire.
      And Grendel, incomplete, raided relentlessly.
      Dude, this was what they call a blood feud, a war 150    that tore a hole through the hearts of the Danes.
      Grendel was broken, and would not brook peace,   desist in dealing deaths, or die himself.   He had no use for stealth—he came near-nightly,   and never negotiated. The old counselors knew better   than to expect a settlement in silver from him.
      Ringless, Grendel’s fingers, kingless,   his country. Be it wizened vizier or beardless boy,   he hunted them across foggy moors, an owl   mist-diving for mice, grist-grinding their tails 160    in his teeth. A hellion’s home is anywhere   good men fear to tread; who knows the dread this   marauder mapped?

    Dude!
    it was interesting, though.

  225. The Nazis were torn about the Romans, whether to worship them or to hate them. The Romans were arrogant, cruel, ruthless, social Darwinists and completely convinced to be the master race. They provided about the only written sources about the Germans and described them as fearsome badasses. Tacitus (author of the beloved “Germania”) was also a rabid enemy of the Jews. Good.
    But they also fought the Germans and occupied their lands. The Etruscans were likely somewhere in their family tree and, as was believed, originally came from somewhere in the East, possibly even Palestine, so they could be Jews in disguise. Bad.
    So, were they laudable Aryan Nazi forerunners or despicable mongrels? OK, in late aniquity they definitely were the latter and thus their empire perished but what about before 146 BC?
    The Greeks of antiquity (who had nothing to do with the degenerate dwellers in Greece of the present day) were OK in general, with the exception of that obvious Jewish mole Socrates (oh why did the 150% Aryan Plato fall for that fraud?).

  226. The Nazis were torn about the Romans, whether to worship them or to hate them. The Romans were arrogant, cruel, ruthless, social Darwinists and completely convinced to be the master race. They provided about the only written sources about the Germans and described them as fearsome badasses. Tacitus (author of the beloved “Germania”) was also a rabid enemy of the Jews. Good.
    But they also fought the Germans and occupied their lands. The Etruscans were likely somewhere in their family tree and, as was believed, originally came from somewhere in the East, possibly even Palestine, so they could be Jews in disguise. Bad.
    So, were they laudable Aryan Nazi forerunners or despicable mongrels? OK, in late aniquity they definitely were the latter and thus their empire perished but what about before 146 BC?
    The Greeks of antiquity (who had nothing to do with the degenerate dwellers in Greece of the present day) were OK in general, with the exception of that obvious Jewish mole Socrates (oh why did the 150% Aryan Plato fall for that fraud?).

  227. In this case, if we decenter the idea of Westernness, we also decenter the particular set of connections that give the impression of narrative continuity.
    So where do we re-center? Using which canons?
    And who gets to decide?
    All people are created equal, and are endowed by their creator with inalienable rights *is not* a statement that anyone in classical era Greece or Rome would have held. Equality for all people under the law is not a Greek or Roman concept.
    Well, Roman *citizens* had certain rights and, IIRC, depending on time and location, so did Greek *citizens*.
    That said, what we view today as modern Western Liberal Democracy is exactly that: modern. But, as LJ indicates, we didn’t get where we are from nowhere. What we have today is the evolved product of what went on before, which has roots not only the Greek and Roman traditions, but early Danish and German as well.
    One can argue in hindsight that all of these influences were “white”, and if pigmentation is your guiding metric, then yes, sort of. White’ish maybe. Culturally, the differences between BCE Greece, Rome’s 800 year plus history and the barbarian evolution in Germany and Scandinavia are as vast as any and supersede pigmentation in every meaningful way.
    The (white) West, as an historical actor, is no worse than any other major civilization. In terms of advancing the human condition, the West’s overall contribution outweighs any other major civilization. Idiots who confuse the West with pigmentation deserve all of the scorn and derision they get. The fact is, Western values now permeate the modern world regardless of pigmentation and, on balance, people are better off for it.
    So, if we are going to de-center Western philosophy and its contribution to the human condition, where do we go for something comparable? And who says its comparable? More to the point, why would we be better off? I’d say the burden of proof is on those lobbying to replace one with another.

  228. In this case, if we decenter the idea of Westernness, we also decenter the particular set of connections that give the impression of narrative continuity.
    So where do we re-center? Using which canons?
    And who gets to decide?
    All people are created equal, and are endowed by their creator with inalienable rights *is not* a statement that anyone in classical era Greece or Rome would have held. Equality for all people under the law is not a Greek or Roman concept.
    Well, Roman *citizens* had certain rights and, IIRC, depending on time and location, so did Greek *citizens*.
    That said, what we view today as modern Western Liberal Democracy is exactly that: modern. But, as LJ indicates, we didn’t get where we are from nowhere. What we have today is the evolved product of what went on before, which has roots not only the Greek and Roman traditions, but early Danish and German as well.
    One can argue in hindsight that all of these influences were “white”, and if pigmentation is your guiding metric, then yes, sort of. White’ish maybe. Culturally, the differences between BCE Greece, Rome’s 800 year plus history and the barbarian evolution in Germany and Scandinavia are as vast as any and supersede pigmentation in every meaningful way.
    The (white) West, as an historical actor, is no worse than any other major civilization. In terms of advancing the human condition, the West’s overall contribution outweighs any other major civilization. Idiots who confuse the West with pigmentation deserve all of the scorn and derision they get. The fact is, Western values now permeate the modern world regardless of pigmentation and, on balance, people are better off for it.
    So, if we are going to de-center Western philosophy and its contribution to the human condition, where do we go for something comparable? And who says its comparable? More to the point, why would we be better off? I’d say the burden of proof is on those lobbying to replace one with another.

  229. I’m hearing that in the voice of Q-Tip.
    damn. that would have worked out much better for me. i kept hearing it as Jeff Spicoli.

  230. I’m hearing that in the voice of Q-Tip.
    damn. that would have worked out much better for me. i kept hearing it as Jeff Spicoli.

  231. Well, don’t want to get in a big argument here, but I believe that the “(white) West” is worst, but it is possibly only because they have been able to bring technology to bear and I don’t think any other set of humans would have been any better. The whole Guns, Germs and Steel thesis. (which is interesting to contemplate as we move into the Pacific century and the current pandemic)
    But setting that aside, I don’t think Western philosophy is the best example.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/04/28/philosophys-gender-bias-for-too-long-scholars-say-women-have-been-ignored/
    https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/03/arts/colin-mcginn-philosopher-to-leave-his-post.html
    I stumbled into linguistics and so I lucked out, because it goes basically from pretty hard science (Neurology and brain scans) to philosophical ideas. Geoff Pullum wrote that he saw a report in a hotel’s records about conferences and any problems that various groups had and he said that the entry for linguists was ‘quiet and they bring their own women’, and he realized that was because the field has a very good gender balance. However, there are still challenges with diversity.
    What Peralta is doing is important, i.e. having the Princeton classics department seek out diversity. I think a lot has to do with how one defines ‘decenter’. When McKT says
    So, if we are going to de-center Western philosophy and its contribution to the human condition, where do we go for something comparable?
    To be fair, the article spends a lot of time emphasizing Peralta’s ‘blowing up the field’, so talking about what replaces it is logical, but I got the impression that it was a nice catchy hook to hang the article on.
    To me, decenter doesn’t mean that we get a replacement, it just means putting the center in somewhere else, sort of like these maps do
    https://theconversation.com/five-maps-that-will-change-how-you-see-the-world-74967
    I suppose one could say the maps were replaced, but everything that is on the old map is still on the new one.

  232. Well, don’t want to get in a big argument here, but I believe that the “(white) West” is worst, but it is possibly only because they have been able to bring technology to bear and I don’t think any other set of humans would have been any better. The whole Guns, Germs and Steel thesis. (which is interesting to contemplate as we move into the Pacific century and the current pandemic)
    But setting that aside, I don’t think Western philosophy is the best example.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/04/28/philosophys-gender-bias-for-too-long-scholars-say-women-have-been-ignored/
    https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/03/arts/colin-mcginn-philosopher-to-leave-his-post.html
    I stumbled into linguistics and so I lucked out, because it goes basically from pretty hard science (Neurology and brain scans) to philosophical ideas. Geoff Pullum wrote that he saw a report in a hotel’s records about conferences and any problems that various groups had and he said that the entry for linguists was ‘quiet and they bring their own women’, and he realized that was because the field has a very good gender balance. However, there are still challenges with diversity.
    What Peralta is doing is important, i.e. having the Princeton classics department seek out diversity. I think a lot has to do with how one defines ‘decenter’. When McKT says
    So, if we are going to de-center Western philosophy and its contribution to the human condition, where do we go for something comparable?
    To be fair, the article spends a lot of time emphasizing Peralta’s ‘blowing up the field’, so talking about what replaces it is logical, but I got the impression that it was a nice catchy hook to hang the article on.
    To me, decenter doesn’t mean that we get a replacement, it just means putting the center in somewhere else, sort of like these maps do
    https://theconversation.com/five-maps-that-will-change-how-you-see-the-world-74967
    I suppose one could say the maps were replaced, but everything that is on the old map is still on the new one.

  233. Well, Roman *citizens* had certain rights and, IIRC, depending on time and location, so did Greek *citizens*.
    Yes, and that’s kind of my point.
    The antique understanding was that citizens have rights, others don’t. Antique Greece and Rome, anyway, and for some of antique Greece – it wasn’t all Athens. That, at least nominally, is not, and ought not be, our understanding.
    Citizens may have privileges, all people have rights. If there is an American contribution to the history of the human race, it’s that.
    IMO.
    which has roots not only the Greek and Roman traditions, but early Danish and German as well.
    You are correct IMO to call out the Danish and German roots here, especially for the Anglo-American tradition, where those roots show up in institutions like common law.
    In any case, for American society specifically, I’d see the humanist and rationalist aspects of the Enlightenment as carrying a lot more weight than antique Rome or Greece.
    In terms of advancing the human condition, the West’s overall contribution outweighs any other major civilization.
    We built on the shoulders of giants. And I’m not referring primarily to Greece or Rome here.
    Idiots who confuse the West with pigmentation deserve all of the scorn and derision they get.
    Amen.
    The fact is, Western values now permeate the modern world regardless of pigmentation and, on balance, people are better off for it.
    I think there is truth to this, but we need to be specific about which aspects of the historical and cultural bundle that we call “Western values” are beneficial and which not. It’s a mixed bag, as always IMV and truly HO.
    Beware hubris, or so said the Greeks.

  234. Well, Roman *citizens* had certain rights and, IIRC, depending on time and location, so did Greek *citizens*.
    Yes, and that’s kind of my point.
    The antique understanding was that citizens have rights, others don’t. Antique Greece and Rome, anyway, and for some of antique Greece – it wasn’t all Athens. That, at least nominally, is not, and ought not be, our understanding.
    Citizens may have privileges, all people have rights. If there is an American contribution to the history of the human race, it’s that.
    IMO.
    which has roots not only the Greek and Roman traditions, but early Danish and German as well.
    You are correct IMO to call out the Danish and German roots here, especially for the Anglo-American tradition, where those roots show up in institutions like common law.
    In any case, for American society specifically, I’d see the humanist and rationalist aspects of the Enlightenment as carrying a lot more weight than antique Rome or Greece.
    In terms of advancing the human condition, the West’s overall contribution outweighs any other major civilization.
    We built on the shoulders of giants. And I’m not referring primarily to Greece or Rome here.
    Idiots who confuse the West with pigmentation deserve all of the scorn and derision they get.
    Amen.
    The fact is, Western values now permeate the modern world regardless of pigmentation and, on balance, people are better off for it.
    I think there is truth to this, but we need to be specific about which aspects of the historical and cultural bundle that we call “Western values” are beneficial and which not. It’s a mixed bag, as always IMV and truly HO.
    Beware hubris, or so said the Greeks.

  235. Being paywall challenged, I’m going by the comments here. But my understanding of what’s being suggested, in the simplest terms, is not to stop reading the Classics (or whatever broader Western canon), but to stop reading them to the near exclusion of everything else.

  236. Being paywall challenged, I’m going by the comments here. But my understanding of what’s being suggested, in the simplest terms, is not to stop reading the Classics (or whatever broader Western canon), but to stop reading them to the near exclusion of everything else.

  237. Well, don’t want to get in a big argument here, but I believe that the “(white) West” is worst, but it is possibly only because they have been able to bring technology to bear and I don’t think any other set of humans would have been any better.
    This is a worthwhile discussion. There is a ‘the West is better because white people made it so’ and a ‘the West is the worst (or really bad, or whatever gradation you like) because white people made it so’ line of thinking these days. Both are BS to my way of thinking, but since I don’t get to decide, I’m curious as to why people support the latter formulation.
    Is there a better societal model than *modern*, diverse Western Liberal Democracy? If so, what is it and why is it better?
    Also, for comparative atrocity aficionados, here’s an interesting link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_by_death_toll

  238. Well, don’t want to get in a big argument here, but I believe that the “(white) West” is worst, but it is possibly only because they have been able to bring technology to bear and I don’t think any other set of humans would have been any better.
    This is a worthwhile discussion. There is a ‘the West is better because white people made it so’ and a ‘the West is the worst (or really bad, or whatever gradation you like) because white people made it so’ line of thinking these days. Both are BS to my way of thinking, but since I don’t get to decide, I’m curious as to why people support the latter formulation.
    Is there a better societal model than *modern*, diverse Western Liberal Democracy? If so, what is it and why is it better?
    Also, for comparative atrocity aficionados, here’s an interesting link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_by_death_toll

  239. Is there a better societal model than *modern*, diverse Western Liberal Democracy?
    my thought on this is: no, not for modern, diverse, western societies.
    other societies may make their own choices, and may pick and choose what works well for them, from our traditions or others, as they wish.
    I have a high regard for what I see as the core values of our tradition. But I don’t assume our values and traditions and institutions are the best or most beneficial ones for everybody.
    Some societies might benefit from adopting more of some aspects of what we do. Some might not. And it’s their choice to decide to do so, or not.
    That’s more or less how I see it.

  240. Is there a better societal model than *modern*, diverse Western Liberal Democracy?
    my thought on this is: no, not for modern, diverse, western societies.
    other societies may make their own choices, and may pick and choose what works well for them, from our traditions or others, as they wish.
    I have a high regard for what I see as the core values of our tradition. But I don’t assume our values and traditions and institutions are the best or most beneficial ones for everybody.
    Some societies might benefit from adopting more of some aspects of what we do. Some might not. And it’s their choice to decide to do so, or not.
    That’s more or less how I see it.

  241. I think there is truth to this, but we need to be specific about which aspects of the historical and cultural bundle that we call “Western values” are beneficial and which not. It’s a mixed bag, as always IMV and truly HO.
    Beware hubris, or so said the Greeks.
    Agree: specificity is great. So, let’s get specific: what negative aspects of modern Western Liberal Democracy are unique to that canon, i.e. that aren’t just as common anywhere else?
    Being paywall challenged, I’m going by the comments here. But my understanding of what’s being suggested, in the simplest terms, is not to stop reading the Classics (or whatever broader Western canon), but to stop reading them to the near exclusion of everything else.
    Ok, what is being excluded that should be included? That is, what subjectively or objectively valuable non Western canon is being excluded?
    It’s fine to say: “there is too much Western, *we did it better*, chauvinism”, but suppose that, when you get down to brass tacks, things like widespread acceptance of the notion of equality under the law for women and minorities really did get its legs in the West, and more particularly in the US, how do you not say–in that respect–that the West/US was superior?
    The line, ISTM, is that it’s fine for Americans to say that, on balance, we’ve done a better job than most, over time, fixing a lot of things that were wrong. It’s a never-ending project, but really, we haven’t done so badly all things considered. The problem lies with dumbasses who really don’t appreciate–and probably do not care for–most of our social advances, and who instead simply conflate the happenstance of where they were born with inherent awesomeness. That is, ignorant chauvinism is a problem, but recognizing what our country has done both wrong and right, and recognizing that we do address what’s wrong, or try to, is perfectly fine and nothing to apologize for.

  242. I think there is truth to this, but we need to be specific about which aspects of the historical and cultural bundle that we call “Western values” are beneficial and which not. It’s a mixed bag, as always IMV and truly HO.
    Beware hubris, or so said the Greeks.
    Agree: specificity is great. So, let’s get specific: what negative aspects of modern Western Liberal Democracy are unique to that canon, i.e. that aren’t just as common anywhere else?
    Being paywall challenged, I’m going by the comments here. But my understanding of what’s being suggested, in the simplest terms, is not to stop reading the Classics (or whatever broader Western canon), but to stop reading them to the near exclusion of everything else.
    Ok, what is being excluded that should be included? That is, what subjectively or objectively valuable non Western canon is being excluded?
    It’s fine to say: “there is too much Western, *we did it better*, chauvinism”, but suppose that, when you get down to brass tacks, things like widespread acceptance of the notion of equality under the law for women and minorities really did get its legs in the West, and more particularly in the US, how do you not say–in that respect–that the West/US was superior?
    The line, ISTM, is that it’s fine for Americans to say that, on balance, we’ve done a better job than most, over time, fixing a lot of things that were wrong. It’s a never-ending project, but really, we haven’t done so badly all things considered. The problem lies with dumbasses who really don’t appreciate–and probably do not care for–most of our social advances, and who instead simply conflate the happenstance of where they were born with inherent awesomeness. That is, ignorant chauvinism is a problem, but recognizing what our country has done both wrong and right, and recognizing that we do address what’s wrong, or try to, is perfectly fine and nothing to apologize for.

  243. The first step is to go off the mainstream on texts from antiquity occasionally. There’s a lot of stuff rarely read by the average student. And even with the canon authors there tends to be a highly selective reading.

  244. The first step is to go off the mainstream on texts from antiquity occasionally. There’s a lot of stuff rarely read by the average student. And even with the canon authors there tends to be a highly selective reading.

  245. other societies may make their own choices, and may pick and choose what works well for them, from our traditions or others, as they wish.
    As a general proposition, sure, ‘to each his/her own.’ However, suppose a particular society or culture practices cannibalism, forced female genital mutilation, de facto and de jure subjection of women or ethnic or religious minorities, and so on? ISTM, that the Western Canon is a valid objective standard by which to measure any number of extant societal/cultural behaviors (provided that we continue to hold ourselves to our own standard and that we continue to work toward bettering ourselves, etc). What do you think?

  246. other societies may make their own choices, and may pick and choose what works well for them, from our traditions or others, as they wish.
    As a general proposition, sure, ‘to each his/her own.’ However, suppose a particular society or culture practices cannibalism, forced female genital mutilation, de facto and de jure subjection of women or ethnic or religious minorities, and so on? ISTM, that the Western Canon is a valid objective standard by which to measure any number of extant societal/cultural behaviors (provided that we continue to hold ourselves to our own standard and that we continue to work toward bettering ourselves, etc). What do you think?

  247. the Wiki page for Timeline of women’s suffrage is interesting. it shows that some places (ex Sweden) had been experimenting with various levels of it since the early 1700s. and then a bunch of island nations (Pitcarin, Norfolk, Hawaii, etc) did it in the mid 1800s. but in the late 1800s, it started picking up all over the west.
    by the late 1910s, a few US states and many European countries and a few central Asian countries adopted it – Austria, Germany, Afghanistan, Armenia, Georgia, and many others in 1918/19.
    the full US in 1920 was right in the middle of the pack.

  248. McTX: Is there a better societal model than *modern*, diverse Western Liberal Democracy?
    Since you emphasize “modern”, I thought I’d ask when *American* democracy became a “modern, diverse Western Liberal” one.
    1776? 1789? 1864-68? 1920? 1964-65? some other date?
    Sure, there were elements of liberal democracy present in American society even in colonial times, and it’s a continuum, not a quantum leap, and all that. But there must be some threshold that separates modern from ancient or classical or whatever, and I’m curious where in time you’d put it.
    –TP

  249. the Wiki page for Timeline of women’s suffrage is interesting. it shows that some places (ex Sweden) had been experimenting with various levels of it since the early 1700s. and then a bunch of island nations (Pitcarin, Norfolk, Hawaii, etc) did it in the mid 1800s. but in the late 1800s, it started picking up all over the west.
    by the late 1910s, a few US states and many European countries and a few central Asian countries adopted it – Austria, Germany, Afghanistan, Armenia, Georgia, and many others in 1918/19.
    the full US in 1920 was right in the middle of the pack.

  250. McTX: Is there a better societal model than *modern*, diverse Western Liberal Democracy?
    Since you emphasize “modern”, I thought I’d ask when *American* democracy became a “modern, diverse Western Liberal” one.
    1776? 1789? 1864-68? 1920? 1964-65? some other date?
    Sure, there were elements of liberal democracy present in American society even in colonial times, and it’s a continuum, not a quantum leap, and all that. But there must be some threshold that separates modern from ancient or classical or whatever, and I’m curious where in time you’d put it.
    –TP

  251. The first step is to go off the mainstream on texts from antiquity occasionally. There’s a lot of stuff rarely read by the average student. And even with the canon authors there tends to be a highly selective reading.
    Yes, but by definition, the average student is exposed to survey type courses. The same average student has elective options. When I was a student, I had the option of having a professor–assuming the professor was willing–sponsor a course of self study.
    I’m just curious: for the survey type courses, what non-Western material is being left out? This is a fair question since there is A LOT OF STUFF out there that *could* be included, but given the inherent limitations on survey course, can’t. What do you choose and what do you omit? And, how much non-Western material do you include relative to the “standard” Western menu?

  252. The first step is to go off the mainstream on texts from antiquity occasionally. There’s a lot of stuff rarely read by the average student. And even with the canon authors there tends to be a highly selective reading.
    Yes, but by definition, the average student is exposed to survey type courses. The same average student has elective options. When I was a student, I had the option of having a professor–assuming the professor was willing–sponsor a course of self study.
    I’m just curious: for the survey type courses, what non-Western material is being left out? This is a fair question since there is A LOT OF STUFF out there that *could* be included, but given the inherent limitations on survey course, can’t. What do you choose and what do you omit? And, how much non-Western material do you include relative to the “standard” Western menu?

  253. ISTM, that the Western Canon is a valid objective standard by which to measure any number of extant societal/cultural behaviors
    not including such behaviors as slavery, Jim Crow in the US, Apartheid in SA, the various genocides, the brutalities of colonialism, Nazism and other fascisms.
    it’s enough to make one question whether or not the west should be telling other people how to do things.

  254. ISTM, that the Western Canon is a valid objective standard by which to measure any number of extant societal/cultural behaviors
    not including such behaviors as slavery, Jim Crow in the US, Apartheid in SA, the various genocides, the brutalities of colonialism, Nazism and other fascisms.
    it’s enough to make one question whether or not the west should be telling other people how to do things.

  255. ure, there were elements of liberal democracy present in American society even in colonial times, and it’s a continuum, not a quantum leap, and all that. But there must be some threshold that separates modern from ancient or classical or whatever, and I’m curious where in time you’d put it.
    Good question. Subject to further thought, I would say 1954, Brown v Board of Education marked the sea change in what “equality under the law” meant. Also, I was born in 1954, which probably played an important but yet-to-be discovered role.

  256. ure, there were elements of liberal democracy present in American society even in colonial times, and it’s a continuum, not a quantum leap, and all that. But there must be some threshold that separates modern from ancient or classical or whatever, and I’m curious where in time you’d put it.
    Good question. Subject to further thought, I would say 1954, Brown v Board of Education marked the sea change in what “equality under the law” meant. Also, I was born in 1954, which probably played an important but yet-to-be discovered role.

  257. Although it is easier to-day, students have to first know what they could choose. Unless they are deliberately looking for obscure authors or little read stuff from the standard authors, they are likely to end up with mostly standard stuff simply through natural ignorance. By now I regularly read stuff from (Latin) writers I had never heard of just a few years ago. And a lot is due to professors who deliberately go for the lesser know stuff (some openly stating that e.g. Cicero and other ususal suspects simply bore them after having taught courses on them for decades).

  258. Although it is easier to-day, students have to first know what they could choose. Unless they are deliberately looking for obscure authors or little read stuff from the standard authors, they are likely to end up with mostly standard stuff simply through natural ignorance. By now I regularly read stuff from (Latin) writers I had never heard of just a few years ago. And a lot is due to professors who deliberately go for the lesser know stuff (some openly stating that e.g. Cicero and other ususal suspects simply bore them after having taught courses on them for decades).

  259. the Western Canon is a really good steak house. the food is great. everyone loves it. you certainly could eat there every night.
    but there’s a universe of other restaurants out there that are just as good, maybe even better. and you’ll never know about any of them if nobody tells you they’re out there.

  260. the Western Canon is a really good steak house. the food is great. everyone loves it. you certainly could eat there every night.
    but there’s a universe of other restaurants out there that are just as good, maybe even better. and you’ll never know about any of them if nobody tells you they’re out there.

  261. decenter the idea of Westernness
    I always wonder, when people are being outraged about Western culture. Have they noticed that other cultures have their own classic texts? Which, in my (admittedly limited) observation are every bit as elitist, chauvinistic, bigoted, etc. as Western classics. What does it say that they would apoplectic if someone dared suggest revamping those other cultures’ texts to conform to their sensitivities?
    My two sen.

  262. decenter the idea of Westernness
    I always wonder, when people are being outraged about Western culture. Have they noticed that other cultures have their own classic texts? Which, in my (admittedly limited) observation are every bit as elitist, chauvinistic, bigoted, etc. as Western classics. What does it say that they would apoplectic if someone dared suggest revamping those other cultures’ texts to conform to their sensitivities?
    My two sen.

  263. what negative aspects of modern Western Liberal Democracy are unique to that canon, i.e. that aren’t just as common anywhere else?
    I’d cite a lack of social cohesion, and the capitalist ethic of value flowing to capital rather than labor.
    Not necessarily specific to the Western Liberal Democracy canon, but prominent in how it is practiced, in particular in the US.
    That’s my perspective, as someone born and raised in it, and therefore generally sympathetic to it.
    What would be interesting, to me, would be to ask someone born and raised in China, or Pakistan, or Botswana, or any number of other places, what seemed good, bad, or indifferent about Western Liberal Democracy, to them.
    You might get different answers.
    As something of an aside, and with reference to the antique Greeks and Romans as a model, it’s interesting to note that the Persian empire – the “bad guys” in the Western-chauvinism-porn book and movie “The 300”, did not have an economy or society based on slave labor. The contemporary Greek city-states largely did.
    Which would be a better model?

  264. what negative aspects of modern Western Liberal Democracy are unique to that canon, i.e. that aren’t just as common anywhere else?
    I’d cite a lack of social cohesion, and the capitalist ethic of value flowing to capital rather than labor.
    Not necessarily specific to the Western Liberal Democracy canon, but prominent in how it is practiced, in particular in the US.
    That’s my perspective, as someone born and raised in it, and therefore generally sympathetic to it.
    What would be interesting, to me, would be to ask someone born and raised in China, or Pakistan, or Botswana, or any number of other places, what seemed good, bad, or indifferent about Western Liberal Democracy, to them.
    You might get different answers.
    As something of an aside, and with reference to the antique Greeks and Romans as a model, it’s interesting to note that the Persian empire – the “bad guys” in the Western-chauvinism-porn book and movie “The 300”, did not have an economy or society based on slave labor. The contemporary Greek city-states largely did.
    Which would be a better model?

  265. Yeah but the Greeks would have told you that everyone in Persia was the personal property of the King of Kings, so everyone apart from the monarch was a slave.
    And Aristotle would have added that every non-Greek was by definition a slave, although for many a Greek owner had not yet been determined.
    And the highest a non-Greek could achieve was to realize that rather obvious (for a Greek) fact. That many didn’t was another proof of Greek superiority
    😉

  266. Yeah but the Greeks would have told you that everyone in Persia was the personal property of the King of Kings, so everyone apart from the monarch was a slave.
    And Aristotle would have added that every non-Greek was by definition a slave, although for many a Greek owner had not yet been determined.
    And the highest a non-Greek could achieve was to realize that rather obvious (for a Greek) fact. That many didn’t was another proof of Greek superiority
    😉

  271. I think it is important to note that Peralta’s critique is not of texts or canons, but of a particular disciplinary identity.
    Is the Classics department a literature department or a history department or a cultural studies department or a language department or what? What is the underlying methodology or habit of mind that is meant to be passed on to the student of Classics? And his deeper question, how does the disciplinary identity of a Classics scholar play with or against the students’ lived sense of identity, especially for those students with a more fraught relationship to the cultural prejudices that get wallpapered over in typical presentations of what Western Civ is and how it is the legacy of these two ancient cultures.
    It’s fine to say: “there is too much Western, *we did it better*, chauvinism”, but suppose that, when you get down to brass tacks, things like widespread acceptance of the notion of equality under the law for women and minorities really did get its legs in the West, and more particularly in the US, how do you not say–in that respect–that the West/US was superior?
    Here is where that disciplinary identity matters. Do we understand the underlying reasons why those particular notions came to the fore and began to be acted upon in the context in which it happened? Can we give a satisfactory account of why a more expansive view of these rights now is owing to a distinct cultural heritage or set of ideas that was not acted upon in any previous historical moment?
    Why should we say that this greater level of equality is owed to the ancient underpinnings and not to the efforts of the marginalized to force a reckoning?
    Can these questions, which are important questions, be answered from within the discipline of Classics, or do they require the tools and methodology of another discipline?
    Which is, I think, the root of the identity crisis in the discipline.

  272. I think it is important to note that Peralta’s critique is not of texts or canons, but of a particular disciplinary identity.
    Is the Classics department a literature department or a history department or a cultural studies department or a language department or what? What is the underlying methodology or habit of mind that is meant to be passed on to the student of Classics? And his deeper question, how does the disciplinary identity of a Classics scholar play with or against the students’ lived sense of identity, especially for those students with a more fraught relationship to the cultural prejudices that get wallpapered over in typical presentations of what Western Civ is and how it is the legacy of these two ancient cultures.
    It’s fine to say: “there is too much Western, *we did it better*, chauvinism”, but suppose that, when you get down to brass tacks, things like widespread acceptance of the notion of equality under the law for women and minorities really did get its legs in the West, and more particularly in the US, how do you not say–in that respect–that the West/US was superior?
    Here is where that disciplinary identity matters. Do we understand the underlying reasons why those particular notions came to the fore and began to be acted upon in the context in which it happened? Can we give a satisfactory account of why a more expansive view of these rights now is owing to a distinct cultural heritage or set of ideas that was not acted upon in any previous historical moment?
    Why should we say that this greater level of equality is owed to the ancient underpinnings and not to the efforts of the marginalized to force a reckoning?
    Can these questions, which are important questions, be answered from within the discipline of Classics, or do they require the tools and methodology of another discipline?
    Which is, I think, the root of the identity crisis in the discipline.

  273. cannibalism, forced female genital mutilation, de facto and de jure subjection of women or ethnic or religious minorities
    What do you think?
    I think they’re all bad things, and I’m very happy to say that to the extent “Western values/democracy” deplores them, it’s superior in my opinion. I would just comment that, de facto, it has not always put its money where its mouth was, and in the case of e.g. evangelical Christianity, or fundamentalist Judaism, where the subjection of women is concerned it does not always do so now, and may not do so in the future.
    Haven’t had a chance to read novakant’s link yet, but I’m looking forward to it.
    I would just say that I became very close friends with a Chinese girl when I was 14 and she came to my English boarding school (we bonded over Hong Kong). She said, apropos of our English literature courses, “We have classic texts too, you know. You really should read some, given I am reading Dickens, Shakespeare, Jane Austen etc.” So, at her suggestion, I read the very long “Dream of the Red Chamber”, also sometimes called “The Story of the Stone”. I enjoyed it, but I am sorry to confess that I remember very little about it (not uncommon with me unless I loved, and reread something), so I cannot comment on its philosophical, moral or cultural underpinnings. It was (of course) in translation. But I did read it, and I thought her point was right.

  274. cannibalism, forced female genital mutilation, de facto and de jure subjection of women or ethnic or religious minorities
    What do you think?
    I think they’re all bad things, and I’m very happy to say that to the extent “Western values/democracy” deplores them, it’s superior in my opinion. I would just comment that, de facto, it has not always put its money where its mouth was, and in the case of e.g. evangelical Christianity, or fundamentalist Judaism, where the subjection of women is concerned it does not always do so now, and may not do so in the future.
    Haven’t had a chance to read novakant’s link yet, but I’m looking forward to it.
    I would just say that I became very close friends with a Chinese girl when I was 14 and she came to my English boarding school (we bonded over Hong Kong). She said, apropos of our English literature courses, “We have classic texts too, you know. You really should read some, given I am reading Dickens, Shakespeare, Jane Austen etc.” So, at her suggestion, I read the very long “Dream of the Red Chamber”, also sometimes called “The Story of the Stone”. I enjoyed it, but I am sorry to confess that I remember very little about it (not uncommon with me unless I loved, and reread something), so I cannot comment on its philosophical, moral or cultural underpinnings. It was (of course) in translation. But I did read it, and I thought her point was right.

  275. What would be interesting, to me, would be to ask someone born and raised in China, or Pakistan, or Botswana, or any number of other places, what seemed good, bad, or indifferent about Western Liberal Democracy, to them.
    Their answers might well depend on whether they thought they were completely anonymous or not.

  276. What would be interesting, to me, would be to ask someone born and raised in China, or Pakistan, or Botswana, or any number of other places, what seemed good, bad, or indifferent about Western Liberal Democracy, to them.
    Their answers might well depend on whether they thought they were completely anonymous or not.

  279. …the notion of equality under the law for women and minorities really did get its legs in the West, and more particularly in the US…
    Seriously?

  280. …the notion of equality under the law for women and minorities really did get its legs in the West, and more particularly in the US…
    Seriously?

  281. Their answers might well depend on whether they thought they were completely anonymous or not.
    China and Pakistan, maybe, although in both cases it probably depends on the question.
    Botswana, no.

  282. Their answers might well depend on whether they thought they were completely anonymous or not.
    China and Pakistan, maybe, although in both cases it probably depends on the question.
    Botswana, no.

  283. The idea of female genital mutilation got some traction in the late 18th and in particular the 19th century in Western Europe too. The method of getting rid of the clitoris proposed by doctors was more the hot iron than the scalpel though. But sewing shut the vulva also had its (secular) proponents. While the former was about fighting “hysteria” (later that pseudo-illness led to the development of the vibrator [as a strictly medical device] btw), the latter came from Malthusianists that wanted to forecefully reduce reproduction (they also targeted males and in particular students who even then had the reputation of always having sex).

  284. The idea of female genital mutilation got some traction in the late 18th and in particular the 19th century in Western Europe too. The method of getting rid of the clitoris proposed by doctors was more the hot iron than the scalpel though. But sewing shut the vulva also had its (secular) proponents. While the former was about fighting “hysteria” (later that pseudo-illness led to the development of the vibrator [as a strictly medical device] btw), the latter came from Malthusianists that wanted to forecefully reduce reproduction (they also targeted males and in particular students who even then had the reputation of always having sex).

  285. not including such behaviors as slavery, Jim Crow in the US, Apartheid in SA, the various genocides, the brutalities of colonialism, Nazism and other fascisms.
    Taking these one at a time:
    slavery–a universal condition and one that, in the US, was overcome by the then-extant iteration of the Western Canon.
    Jim Crow–probably universal in that discrimination and tribalism are not unique to the US, but the key again is: we held ourselves to our own, higher standards and Jim Crow was defeated.
    Apartheid–which was overcome by applying the evolving Western Canon of non-discrimination to the white South African rulers.
    colonialism–which is simply a variant of migration and conquest, which have been universal constants since the earliest of recorded history. And, again, using our own higher standards, we quit that activity as well.
    Nazism and other fascisms–who defeated the Nazis? The democratic west and the not-democratic USSR who had previously split Poland with the Nazis (and invaded Finland) and who got screwed for their efforts.
    You left out Imperial Japan, which should inform any objective analysis of colonialism.
    it’s enough to make one question whether or not the west should be telling other people how to do things.
    Ok, this is not an original observation. So, how broadly do we apply this rule? It is historical fact that Democrats aggressively suppressed African Americans post Civil War, including Jim Crow and up to opposing the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Does that mean Democrats have no standing to tell other Americans how things should be done? Since Republicans led the fight against slavery etc, do they have permanent standing to lecture the rest of us? Does the statute of limitations ever run on the past? Does this apply to other countries: Russia, Germany, China, Japan, Cambodia, Vietnam, Cuba and so on?
    Recently, in a not entirely dissimilar context, you indicated the left’ish riots of last summer were “seasons ago”, i.e. stale and not relevant.
    Ok, working off of that principle: in dog years (which are longer than a season), everything you thing you list happened centuries ago, if not millennia.
    As something of an aside, and with reference to the antique Greeks and Romans as a model, it’s interesting to note that the Persian empire – the “bad guys” in the Western-chauvinism-porn book and movie “The 300”, did not have an economy or society based on slave labor. The contemporary Greek city-states largely did.
    And yet, it was Persia attempting to conquer Greece. To liberate Greek slaves?
    Do we understand the underlying reasons why those particular notions came to the fore and began to be acted upon in the context in which it happened? Can we give a satisfactory account of why a more expansive view of these rights now is owing to a distinct cultural heritage or set of ideas that was not acted upon in any previous historical moment?
    Why should we say that this greater level of equality is owed to the ancient underpinnings and not to the efforts of the marginalized to force a reckoning?
    Well, it’s not binary, for one thing. For another, the course of US history is pretty straightforward, as is the course of history in general post WWII.
    The 14th Amendment was ratified in 1868, the 15th in 1870. Not exactly the heyday of oppressed, marginalized peoples finding their voice. Western Liberal Democracy–as it has continued to evolve–accepts input from any source. We are a country of immigrants, so by definition, as we learn from ourselves, we take in intellectual imports of all kinds.
    Where I think academia gets it wrong is looking too hard outside our country’s evolving value system for reasons why we have evolved. There is considerable investment in some quarters on the left to minimize and even demonize the US role in the world, both currently and throughout history. I think those elements are very, very far removed from reality and are ideologically, not fact, driven.

  286. not including such behaviors as slavery, Jim Crow in the US, Apartheid in SA, the various genocides, the brutalities of colonialism, Nazism and other fascisms.
    Taking these one at a time:
    slavery–a universal condition and one that, in the US, was overcome by the then-extant iteration of the Western Canon.
    Jim Crow–probably universal in that discrimination and tribalism are not unique to the US, but the key again is: we held ourselves to our own, higher standards and Jim Crow was defeated.
    Apartheid–which was overcome by applying the evolving Western Canon of non-discrimination to the white South African rulers.
    colonialism–which is simply a variant of migration and conquest, which have been universal constants since the earliest of recorded history. And, again, using our own higher standards, we quit that activity as well.
    Nazism and other fascisms–who defeated the Nazis? The democratic west and the not-democratic USSR who had previously split Poland with the Nazis (and invaded Finland) and who got screwed for their efforts.
    You left out Imperial Japan, which should inform any objective analysis of colonialism.
    it’s enough to make one question whether or not the west should be telling other people how to do things.
    Ok, this is not an original observation. So, how broadly do we apply this rule? It is historical fact that Democrats aggressively suppressed African Americans post Civil War, including Jim Crow and up to opposing the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Does that mean Democrats have no standing to tell other Americans how things should be done? Since Republicans led the fight against slavery etc, do they have permanent standing to lecture the rest of us? Does the statute of limitations ever run on the past? Does this apply to other countries: Russia, Germany, China, Japan, Cambodia, Vietnam, Cuba and so on?
    Recently, in a not entirely dissimilar context, you indicated the left’ish riots of last summer were “seasons ago”, i.e. stale and not relevant.
    Ok, working off of that principle: in dog years (which are longer than a season), everything you thing you list happened centuries ago, if not millennia.
    As something of an aside, and with reference to the antique Greeks and Romans as a model, it’s interesting to note that the Persian empire – the “bad guys” in the Western-chauvinism-porn book and movie “The 300”, did not have an economy or society based on slave labor. The contemporary Greek city-states largely did.
    And yet, it was Persia attempting to conquer Greece. To liberate Greek slaves?
    Do we understand the underlying reasons why those particular notions came to the fore and began to be acted upon in the context in which it happened? Can we give a satisfactory account of why a more expansive view of these rights now is owing to a distinct cultural heritage or set of ideas that was not acted upon in any previous historical moment?
    Why should we say that this greater level of equality is owed to the ancient underpinnings and not to the efforts of the marginalized to force a reckoning?
    Well, it’s not binary, for one thing. For another, the course of US history is pretty straightforward, as is the course of history in general post WWII.
    The 14th Amendment was ratified in 1868, the 15th in 1870. Not exactly the heyday of oppressed, marginalized peoples finding their voice. Western Liberal Democracy–as it has continued to evolve–accepts input from any source. We are a country of immigrants, so by definition, as we learn from ourselves, we take in intellectual imports of all kinds.
    Where I think academia gets it wrong is looking too hard outside our country’s evolving value system for reasons why we have evolved. There is considerable investment in some quarters on the left to minimize and even demonize the US role in the world, both currently and throughout history. I think those elements are very, very far removed from reality and are ideologically, not fact, driven.

  289. I have to say, Pro Bono’s one worder @02.32 was my first reaction to McKinney’s remark too.

  290. I have to say, Pro Bono’s one worder @02.32 was my first reaction to McKinney’s remark too.

  291. I have to say, Pro Bono’s one worder @02.32 was my first reaction to McKinney’s remark too.
    Feel free to show my the error of my way.

  292. I have to say, Pro Bono’s one worder @02.32 was my first reaction to McKinney’s remark too.
    Feel free to show my the error of my way.

  295. Is the Holy Bible part of the Western Canon?
    I ask in all sincerity — I don’t know the answer, and I don’t presume there’s a unanimous answer.
    I do imagine that the original Hebrew and Greek texts are not in The Canon. Translations like the KJV might be, for Anglophones.
    Of course, aside from people like Hartmut, few can claim to have read anything but translations of many canonical texts. I say that on the quite possibly wrong assumption that the “Western” Canon was not all written in English.
    –TP

  296. Is the Holy Bible part of the Western Canon?
    I ask in all sincerity — I don’t know the answer, and I don’t presume there’s a unanimous answer.
    I do imagine that the original Hebrew and Greek texts are not in The Canon. Translations like the KJV might be, for Anglophones.
    Of course, aside from people like Hartmut, few can claim to have read anything but translations of many canonical texts. I say that on the quite possibly wrong assumption that the “Western” Canon was not all written in English.
    –TP

  297. You left out Imperial Japan, which should inform any objective analysis of colonialism.
    well of course i did. i was responding to what you wrote:

    ISTM, that the Western Canon is a valid objective standard by which to measure any number of extant societal/cultural behaviors

    if we’re being ‘objective’ about the west, we have to include the ways it has objectively sucked.
    Nazism and other fascisms–who defeated the Nazis?
    the Nazis and other European fascists are as much part of the West as the allies who defeated them are.
    Recently, in a not entirely dissimilar context, you indicated the left’ish riots of last summer were “seasons ago”, i.e. stale and not relevant.
    if we’re talking about “Western Canon” here, we’re going back to the late 1500s at least (Shakespeare). so everything i mentioned is included in that time span.

  298. You left out Imperial Japan, which should inform any objective analysis of colonialism.
    well of course i did. i was responding to what you wrote:

    ISTM, that the Western Canon is a valid objective standard by which to measure any number of extant societal/cultural behaviors

    if we’re being ‘objective’ about the west, we have to include the ways it has objectively sucked.
    Nazism and other fascisms–who defeated the Nazis?
    the Nazis and other European fascists are as much part of the West as the allies who defeated them are.
    Recently, in a not entirely dissimilar context, you indicated the left’ish riots of last summer were “seasons ago”, i.e. stale and not relevant.
    if we’re talking about “Western Canon” here, we’re going back to the late 1500s at least (Shakespeare). so everything i mentioned is included in that time span.

  299. And yet, it was Persia attempting to conquer Greece. To liberate Greek slaves?
    As I understand the history, it was basicallly:
    1. Persian Empire wanted Anatolia, and attacked Greek cities there
    2. Greeks back home in Greece responded with military support
    3. Persia responded by invading Greece, unsuccessfully
    Or, more briefly:

    a variant of migration and conquest, which have been universal constants since the earliest of recorded history

    my point overall about Greece vs Persia in the time period of the Greco-Persian wars is that, at least as regards slavery as an economic and social institution the Persians were arguably ‘better’, i.e. more attractive in terms of modern values.
    Or, more broadly, my point is that most people probably don’t know all that much about the history and just sort of assume that ‘their guys’ are the ‘good guys’.
    To return to this for a moment:
    Their answers might well depend on whether they thought they were completely anonymous or not.
    Botswana, no.
    The reason I singled out Botswana in my earlier comment is because it is (a) a stable democracy since achieving independence, with a government modeled in many ways on modern liberal democracies, and (b) a country with a social culture based on ubuntu.
    Can’t say for sure, but my guess is that people coming from that culture would find the American ethic of autonomy and self-determination to be strange, unattractive, and harmful. In spite of their country’s adoption of liberal western models of governance and rule of law.
    They can observe us, recognize what in our traditions are useful to them, and adopt and/or adapt them for their own purposes, while also recognizing what is valuable in their own history and traditions, and holding fast to those things as well.
    Different strokes.

  300. And yet, it was Persia attempting to conquer Greece. To liberate Greek slaves?
    As I understand the history, it was basicallly:
    1. Persian Empire wanted Anatolia, and attacked Greek cities there
    2. Greeks back home in Greece responded with military support
    3. Persia responded by invading Greece, unsuccessfully
    Or, more briefly:

    a variant of migration and conquest, which have been universal constants since the earliest of recorded history

    my point overall about Greece vs Persia in the time period of the Greco-Persian wars is that, at least as regards slavery as an economic and social institution the Persians were arguably ‘better’, i.e. more attractive in terms of modern values.
    Or, more broadly, my point is that most people probably don’t know all that much about the history and just sort of assume that ‘their guys’ are the ‘good guys’.
    To return to this for a moment:
    Their answers might well depend on whether they thought they were completely anonymous or not.
    Botswana, no.
    The reason I singled out Botswana in my earlier comment is because it is (a) a stable democracy since achieving independence, with a government modeled in many ways on modern liberal democracies, and (b) a country with a social culture based on ubuntu.
    Can’t say for sure, but my guess is that people coming from that culture would find the American ethic of autonomy and self-determination to be strange, unattractive, and harmful. In spite of their country’s adoption of liberal western models of governance and rule of law.
    They can observe us, recognize what in our traditions are useful to them, and adopt and/or adapt them for their own purposes, while also recognizing what is valuable in their own history and traditions, and holding fast to those things as well.
    Different strokes.

  301. Somehow I think this discussion started from a very narrow point about how to approach classics studies and moved on to something like *what everyone should think about everything that ever happened and whose fault it was.*
    I don’t know what we’re talking about anymore, or at least not what anyone is supposed to do about it. Maybe it’s purely entertainment now.

  302. Somehow I think this discussion started from a very narrow point about how to approach classics studies and moved on to something like *what everyone should think about everything that ever happened and whose fault it was.*
    I don’t know what we’re talking about anymore, or at least not what anyone is supposed to do about it. Maybe it’s purely entertainment now.

  303. Is the Holy Bible part of the Western Canon?
    I ask in all sincerity — I don’t know the answer, and I don’t presume there’s a unanimous answer.
    I do imagine that the original Hebrew and Greek texts are not in The Canon. Translations like the KJV might be, for Anglophones.
    Probably, just like Shakespeare and Locke and a ton of other stuff.
    if we’re talking about “Western Canon” here, we’re going back to the late 1500s at least (Shakespeare). so everything i mentioned is included in that time span.
    We are talking about the Western Canon, Western Liberal Democracy and *modern* Western Liberal Democracy. There is a lot of overlap, but I think I’ve been careful to note that the Canon and MODWestLibDem are evolving works in progress.
    More generally, I’m still waiting for any specifics anyone might have with what useful supplements there might be to the Canon and why the proposed candidates would add value.
    BTW, *my* sense of MODWestLibDem extends to all functioning, free market democracies without regard to geography.

  304. Is the Holy Bible part of the Western Canon?
    I ask in all sincerity — I don’t know the answer, and I don’t presume there’s a unanimous answer.
    I do imagine that the original Hebrew and Greek texts are not in The Canon. Translations like the KJV might be, for Anglophones.
    Probably, just like Shakespeare and Locke and a ton of other stuff.
    if we’re talking about “Western Canon” here, we’re going back to the late 1500s at least (Shakespeare). so everything i mentioned is included in that time span.
    We are talking about the Western Canon, Western Liberal Democracy and *modern* Western Liberal Democracy. There is a lot of overlap, but I think I’ve been careful to note that the Canon and MODWestLibDem are evolving works in progress.
    More generally, I’m still waiting for any specifics anyone might have with what useful supplements there might be to the Canon and why the proposed candidates would add value.
    BTW, *my* sense of MODWestLibDem extends to all functioning, free market democracies without regard to geography.

  305. Somehow I think this discussion started from a very narrow point about how to approach classics studies and moved on to something like *what everyone should think about everything that ever happened and whose fault it was.*
    aka ObsidianWings.

  306. Somehow I think this discussion started from a very narrow point about how to approach classics studies and moved on to something like *what everyone should think about everything that ever happened and whose fault it was.*
    aka ObsidianWings.

  307. I’m still waiting for any specifics anyone might have with what useful supplements there might be to the Canon and why the proposed candidates would add value.
    I’m not the best person to answer, because I haven’t really read that widely outside of European and American literature, but I’ll offer some favorites of my own:
    Zen Flesh, Zen Bones – English translations by Paul Reps of stories and teachings from the Zen tradition.
    100 Poems From The Japanese – English translations of (duh) 100 Japanese poems by American poet Kenneth Rexroth.
    The Koran, in English translation – the primary document of the third Abrahamic religious tradition.
    Things Fall Apart, Chinua Achebe – a (fictional) narrative of colonial Africa.
    My wife (along with many other people) enjoys Rumi in English translation. A lot of people read Bengali poet Tagore.
    Why? Because they all have something of value to say. To anybody, anywhere, anytime.

  308. I’m still waiting for any specifics anyone might have with what useful supplements there might be to the Canon and why the proposed candidates would add value.
    I’m not the best person to answer, because I haven’t really read that widely outside of European and American literature, but I’ll offer some favorites of my own:
    Zen Flesh, Zen Bones – English translations by Paul Reps of stories and teachings from the Zen tradition.
    100 Poems From The Japanese – English translations of (duh) 100 Japanese poems by American poet Kenneth Rexroth.
    The Koran, in English translation – the primary document of the third Abrahamic religious tradition.
    Things Fall Apart, Chinua Achebe – a (fictional) narrative of colonial Africa.
    My wife (along with many other people) enjoys Rumi in English translation. A lot of people read Bengali poet Tagore.
    Why? Because they all have something of value to say. To anybody, anywhere, anytime.

  309. does the Western Canon include film? because there are many Japanese films that are as good as any US/Euro film (especially in animation, IMO).
    music? great music is everywhere.
    tangentially, one thing David Byrne points out in his latest book is that music (like all art) is created for the physical space in which the creator expects the audience to experience it (and, by a particular kind of audience). Talking Heads wrote their early music expecting it to be heard in ratty NYC clubs by the kind of people who went to such places. Bach wrote for cathedrals (that’s where the organs were!) Dylan initially wrote songs to be played in coffee houses. traditional bluegrass can always be played by small bands with acoustic instruments around a campfire. so if we’re experiencing art outside its intended context, we might not be experiencing it as the creator intended. and if we’re not the intended audience, we’re not going to have the social background to get what it’s trying to tell us.
    to try to tie this back in … this is one reason the western canon, as determined by western audiences, might not be, umm, objectively accurate. not only are we maybe not hearing the music where it was written to be played, we might not even know what we’re supposed to be listening for. we can’t tell if an MP3 of a song from a genre we’re not familiar with is objectively good or notl we can only tell if it’s good for us, with our background.

  310. does the Western Canon include film? because there are many Japanese films that are as good as any US/Euro film (especially in animation, IMO).
    music? great music is everywhere.
    tangentially, one thing David Byrne points out in his latest book is that music (like all art) is created for the physical space in which the creator expects the audience to experience it (and, by a particular kind of audience). Talking Heads wrote their early music expecting it to be heard in ratty NYC clubs by the kind of people who went to such places. Bach wrote for cathedrals (that’s where the organs were!) Dylan initially wrote songs to be played in coffee houses. traditional bluegrass can always be played by small bands with acoustic instruments around a campfire. so if we’re experiencing art outside its intended context, we might not be experiencing it as the creator intended. and if we’re not the intended audience, we’re not going to have the social background to get what it’s trying to tell us.
    to try to tie this back in … this is one reason the western canon, as determined by western audiences, might not be, umm, objectively accurate. not only are we maybe not hearing the music where it was written to be played, we might not even know what we’re supposed to be listening for. we can’t tell if an MP3 of a song from a genre we’re not familiar with is objectively good or notl we can only tell if it’s good for us, with our background.

  311. I’m not the best person to answer, because I haven’t really read that widely outside of European and American literature…
    I imagine a lot of people in the US could say the same thing. I wonder why. (I’m winking as I type this.)

  312. I’m not the best person to answer, because I haven’t really read that widely outside of European and American literature…
    I imagine a lot of people in the US could say the same thing. I wonder why. (I’m winking as I type this.)

  313. Tony P. – the Bible is definitely in “the canon” for Western Studies (so to speak) because it provides necessary context for interacting with other, later texts like Aquinas, Luther, Erasmus, Milton, etc.
    For Classics it would exist in either its Greek form or in the form of the Vulgate at the tail end of the Roman period, and it would be necessary for understanding the shift from Roman state religion to Christianity as the state religion.
    And I am not ignoring McKinney’s question about what to change in the corpus of texts being discussed because I’m not sure what the context is for compiling the texts. Is this for a particular course or discipline? Am I a Mortimer Adler figure trying to commission a several volume series of the essential works of human thought through the ages? Am I trying to make an accounting of the influences that lead to the current moment in which the capitalist representative nation state was the dominant model of political organization? Am I trying to tell the story of the idea of Universal Human Rights? I’d approach each one differently and the selection would change accordingly.
    I would also despair, and develop an even deeper identification with Sisyphus.

  314. Tony P. – the Bible is definitely in “the canon” for Western Studies (so to speak) because it provides necessary context for interacting with other, later texts like Aquinas, Luther, Erasmus, Milton, etc.
    For Classics it would exist in either its Greek form or in the form of the Vulgate at the tail end of the Roman period, and it would be necessary for understanding the shift from Roman state religion to Christianity as the state religion.
    And I am not ignoring McKinney’s question about what to change in the corpus of texts being discussed because I’m not sure what the context is for compiling the texts. Is this for a particular course or discipline? Am I a Mortimer Adler figure trying to commission a several volume series of the essential works of human thought through the ages? Am I trying to make an accounting of the influences that lead to the current moment in which the capitalist representative nation state was the dominant model of political organization? Am I trying to tell the story of the idea of Universal Human Rights? I’d approach each one differently and the selection would change accordingly.
    I would also despair, and develop an even deeper identification with Sisyphus.

  315. I wonder why.
    since Western Civ is the best, it is axiomatic that works from anyone else will be inferior. so why bother? teach the best of the best. let the hordes have the rest.

  316. I wonder why.
    since Western Civ is the best, it is axiomatic that works from anyone else will be inferior. so why bother? teach the best of the best. let the hordes have the rest.

  317. Why? Because they all have something of value to say. To anybody, anywhere, anytime.
    Sounds like an interesting syllabus for a survey course. I’d be on board with adding something like that to core degree requirements.
    does the Western Canon include film? because there are many Japanese films that are as good as any US/Euro film (especially in animation, IMO).
    music? great music is everywhere.
    Interesting questions. First, I think of Japan, S Korea, Singapore, India and probably others that do not come readily to mind as being at least part of the modern Western Canon albeit with their own unique histories and cultures as well as well as subscribers to the main principles of MODWestLibDem. IMO, we are in a world-wide blender, with a lot of different peoples/countries picking the parts of whatever they like and adapting them to their own fit.
    As for music and film–or more broadly, art–there is so much borrowing, innovation, new stuff etc, I’m not sure that in the here and now, there is a markedly “Western” standard. Historically, probably, but not in the current internet cross cultural world.
    BTW, I’m not arguing that the Canon is superior, objectively or subjectively. I do argue that many of the elements of MODWestLibDem are objectively superior.
    If I wasn’t clear on this distinction, I apologize.

  318. Why? Because they all have something of value to say. To anybody, anywhere, anytime.
    Sounds like an interesting syllabus for a survey course. I’d be on board with adding something like that to core degree requirements.
    does the Western Canon include film? because there are many Japanese films that are as good as any US/Euro film (especially in animation, IMO).
    music? great music is everywhere.
    Interesting questions. First, I think of Japan, S Korea, Singapore, India and probably others that do not come readily to mind as being at least part of the modern Western Canon albeit with their own unique histories and cultures as well as well as subscribers to the main principles of MODWestLibDem. IMO, we are in a world-wide blender, with a lot of different peoples/countries picking the parts of whatever they like and adapting them to their own fit.
    As for music and film–or more broadly, art–there is so much borrowing, innovation, new stuff etc, I’m not sure that in the here and now, there is a markedly “Western” standard. Historically, probably, but not in the current internet cross cultural world.
    BTW, I’m not arguing that the Canon is superior, objectively or subjectively. I do argue that many of the elements of MODWestLibDem are objectively superior.
    If I wasn’t clear on this distinction, I apologize.

  319. And I am not ignoring McKinney’s question about what to change in the corpus of texts being discussed because I’m not sure what the context is for compiling the texts. Is this for a particular course or discipline? Am I a Mortimer Adler figure trying to commission a several volume series of the essential works of human thought through the ages? Am I trying to make an accounting of the influences that lead to the current moment in which the capitalist representative nation state was the dominant model of political organization? Am I trying to tell the story of the idea of Universal Human Rights? I’d approach each one differently and the selection would change accordingly.
    The knot is not a Gordian, IMO. Syllabi can be tailored to whatever end post-survey courses wish to go. As a matter of a broad-based introduction, Western Lit and Western History should be a part of the curriculum. I’m good with expanding the core requirements as indicated above to capture important and influential elements of non-Western literature. I’m good with “the essential works of human thought through the ages” as part of the core curriculum. Thereafter, it’s whatever the student chooses to study assuming the school offers it.

  320. And I am not ignoring McKinney’s question about what to change in the corpus of texts being discussed because I’m not sure what the context is for compiling the texts. Is this for a particular course or discipline? Am I a Mortimer Adler figure trying to commission a several volume series of the essential works of human thought through the ages? Am I trying to make an accounting of the influences that lead to the current moment in which the capitalist representative nation state was the dominant model of political organization? Am I trying to tell the story of the idea of Universal Human Rights? I’d approach each one differently and the selection would change accordingly.
    The knot is not a Gordian, IMO. Syllabi can be tailored to whatever end post-survey courses wish to go. As a matter of a broad-based introduction, Western Lit and Western History should be a part of the curriculum. I’m good with expanding the core requirements as indicated above to capture important and influential elements of non-Western literature. I’m good with “the essential works of human thought through the ages” as part of the core curriculum. Thereafter, it’s whatever the student chooses to study assuming the school offers it.

  321. McTX: Does the statute of limitations ever run on the past?
    No.
    Not for progressives, not for conservatives, not for anyone who looks to history for guidance on what or what NOT to do in the present.
    cleek: the Nazis and other European fascists are as much part of the West as the allies who defeated them are.
    Yes.
    Just like MAGAts are part of the USA, or (in their own minds) the real adherents to Western Liberal Democracy.
    hairshirt: Somehow I think this discussion started from a very narrow point about how to approach classics studies and moved on to something like *what everyone should think about everything that ever happened and whose fault it was.*
    As a fellow engineer, I’m not sure what “classics studies” are for, if not to at least equip students with facts and ideas about “what everyone should think”. Classics like Principia Mathematica and Origin of Species certainly do that, but admittedly not about “everything that ever happened and whose fault it was”.
    russell: aka ObsidianWings
    Amen.
    –TP

  322. McTX: Does the statute of limitations ever run on the past?
    No.
    Not for progressives, not for conservatives, not for anyone who looks to history for guidance on what or what NOT to do in the present.
    cleek: the Nazis and other European fascists are as much part of the West as the allies who defeated them are.
    Yes.
    Just like MAGAts are part of the USA, or (in their own minds) the real adherents to Western Liberal Democracy.
    hairshirt: Somehow I think this discussion started from a very narrow point about how to approach classics studies and moved on to something like *what everyone should think about everything that ever happened and whose fault it was.*
    As a fellow engineer, I’m not sure what “classics studies” are for, if not to at least equip students with facts and ideas about “what everyone should think”. Classics like Principia Mathematica and Origin of Species certainly do that, but admittedly not about “everything that ever happened and whose fault it was”.
    russell: aka ObsidianWings
    Amen.
    –TP

  323. Morning all, interesting stuff but all to sprawling that a single comment will suffice. So just a turd in the punchbowl: Why is the Holocaust not considered part of what the West has wrought?

  324. Morning all, interesting stuff but all to sprawling that a single comment will suffice. So just a turd in the punchbowl: Why is the Holocaust not considered part of what the West has wrought?

  325. Not non-western books per se, but two that I have often advocated for adding to Western Civ type reading lists are A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies by Fray Bartolomé de las Casas and The Interesting Narrative of the Life of Olaudah Equiano, Or Gustavus Vassa, The African by Olaudah Equiano.

  326. Not non-western books per se, but two that I have often advocated for adding to Western Civ type reading lists are A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies by Fray Bartolomé de las Casas and The Interesting Narrative of the Life of Olaudah Equiano, Or Gustavus Vassa, The African by Olaudah Equiano.

  327. So just a turd in the punchbowl: Why is the Holocaust not considered part of what the West has wrought?
    Well, because it wasn’t committed by the *West*. It was committed by the Nazi Party. No part of the Western Canon embraces ethnic genocide and it was Americans and Brits, who were very much adherents to the Canon who were the principal Western belligerents against the Nazis. But if you are interested in multi-cultural atrocity comparisons, please refer to my Wikipedia cite much earlier today. Also, you can read up on the Second Sino Japanese War. There is nothing unique to the West about wartime atrocities. Not for nothing are the Japanese still not well regarded in Vietnam, the Philippines, Korea and elsewhere. Nor are non-Western atrocities limited to war: the Uighurs, Tibetians, Falun Gong, citizens of Hong Kong and maybe someday the Taiwanese. And there is Cambodia too. A other stuff.

  328. So just a turd in the punchbowl: Why is the Holocaust not considered part of what the West has wrought?
    Well, because it wasn’t committed by the *West*. It was committed by the Nazi Party. No part of the Western Canon embraces ethnic genocide and it was Americans and Brits, who were very much adherents to the Canon who were the principal Western belligerents against the Nazis. But if you are interested in multi-cultural atrocity comparisons, please refer to my Wikipedia cite much earlier today. Also, you can read up on the Second Sino Japanese War. There is nothing unique to the West about wartime atrocities. Not for nothing are the Japanese still not well regarded in Vietnam, the Philippines, Korea and elsewhere. Nor are non-Western atrocities limited to war: the Uighurs, Tibetians, Falun Gong, citizens of Hong Kong and maybe someday the Taiwanese. And there is Cambodia too. A other stuff.

  331. Ok, what is being excluded that should be included? That is, what subjectively or objectively valuable non Western canon is being excluded?
    It’s fine to say: “there is too much Western, *we did it better*, chauvinism”, but suppose that, when you get down to brass tacks, things like widespread acceptance of the notion of equality under the law for women and minorities really did get its legs in the West, and more particularly in the US, how do you not say–in that respect–that the West/US was superior?
    ***
    Feel free to show my the error of my way.
    Well. I was of course responding (although I cannot speak for Pro Bono) to my bolded words above. Apart from cleek’s link to dates for women’s suffrage, I need only mention that in the space of just 46 years from 1807, the British government outlawed the slave trade and went on to abolish the practice of slavery throughout the colonies. I don’t think I need to remind Americans what had to happen and when for slavery to be ended in the entire US.
    As for Jim Crow, unlike in the US, I think I am right in saying that was no legal basis for racial segregation in the UK, but of course plenty of racial discrimination. In order to begin addressing this, the Race Relations Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_Relations_Act_1965 was passed in 1965, and then repealed and replaced with a more robust act, the Race Relations Act 1976.
    As for apartheid, I am almost at a loss about what to say in reply to this:
    Apartheid–which was overcome by applying the evolving Western Canon of non-discrimination to the white South African rulers.
    As the vast majority of the white South African population supported and collaborated with apartheid, (including I regret to say most of the Jews, although in their ranks were a disproportionate percentage of the resistance), whose “rulers” were the politicians and legislators who made the apartheid laws, and that white population was as much a product of the Western canon as anybody in Europe or the US, this makes nonsense of McKinney’s original comment. Not to mention of course, that the whole ideological basis of apartheid was staunchly supported and validated by the Dutch Reformed Church. Apartheid SA cannot of course be regarded as a democracy, let alone a liberal one, but since we are talking about the canon, and classics, I really think we cannot accept McKinney’s later amendment that he was talking about many of the elements of MODWestLibDem, which is why I include his whole quote at the top. And finally, the apartheid regime was finally overcome by a BDS movement, which was a product of the kind of people McKinney usually contemptuously calls, as far as I remember, Social Justice Warriors.
    And I am not ignoring McKinney’s question about what to change in the corpus of texts being discussed because I’m not sure what the context is for compiling the texts. Is this for a particular course or discipline? Am I a Mortimer Adler figure trying to commission a several volume series of the essential works of human thought through the ages? Am I trying to make an accounting of the influences that lead to the current moment in which the capitalist representative nation state was the dominant model of political organization? Am I trying to tell the story of the idea of Universal Human Rights? I’d approach each one differently and the selection would change accordingly.
    Typically thoughtful by nous, and once said (but only once said) obviously right.
    Good question. Subject to further thought, I would say 1954, Brown v Board of Education marked the sea change in what “equality under the law” meant. Also, I was born in 1954, which probably played an important but yet-to-be discovered role.
    This did make me laugh, and I liked where McK drew the line. We await the later-mentioned discovery with bated breath.
    aka ObsidianWings
    LOL
    Why is the Holocaust not considered part of what the West has wrought?
    It is. It was.
    Well, because it wasn’t committed by the *West*. It was committed by the Nazi Party.
    Same misconception as about apartheid. It was ordered by the Nazis, but partly carried out and certainly enthusiastically collaborated in by vast swathes of the population of Germany, Poland, Lithuania etc. And there was enthusiastic collaboration in France, and the Channel Islands, and no doubt much of the rest of occupied Europe, all of whom were as steeped in the canon and just as much “adherents” (McKinney’s word) to the canon as the Brits and Americans, whatever the hell “adherents” here means in the context of the canon.
    Etc etc. I think hsh was right upthread.
    I don’t know what we’re talking about anymore, or at least not what anyone is supposed to do about it. Maybe it’s purely entertainment now.

  332. Ok, what is being excluded that should be included? That is, what subjectively or objectively valuable non Western canon is being excluded?
    It’s fine to say: “there is too much Western, *we did it better*, chauvinism”, but suppose that, when you get down to brass tacks, things like widespread acceptance of the notion of equality under the law for women and minorities really did get its legs in the West, and more particularly in the US, how do you not say–in that respect–that the West/US was superior?
    ***
    Feel free to show my the error of my way.
    Well. I was of course responding (although I cannot speak for Pro Bono) to my bolded words above. Apart from cleek’s link to dates for women’s suffrage, I need only mention that in the space of just 46 years from 1807, the British government outlawed the slave trade and went on to abolish the practice of slavery throughout the colonies. I don’t think I need to remind Americans what had to happen and when for slavery to be ended in the entire US.
    As for Jim Crow, unlike in the US, I think I am right in saying that was no legal basis for racial segregation in the UK, but of course plenty of racial discrimination. In order to begin addressing this, the Race Relations Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_Relations_Act_1965 was passed in 1965, and then repealed and replaced with a more robust act, the Race Relations Act 1976.
    As for apartheid, I am almost at a loss about what to say in reply to this:
    Apartheid–which was overcome by applying the evolving Western Canon of non-discrimination to the white South African rulers.
    As the vast majority of the white South African population supported and collaborated with apartheid, (including I regret to say most of the Jews, although in their ranks were a disproportionate percentage of the resistance), whose “rulers” were the politicians and legislators who made the apartheid laws, and that white population was as much a product of the Western canon as anybody in Europe or the US, this makes nonsense of McKinney’s original comment. Not to mention of course, that the whole ideological basis of apartheid was staunchly supported and validated by the Dutch Reformed Church. Apartheid SA cannot of course be regarded as a democracy, let alone a liberal one, but since we are talking about the canon, and classics, I really think we cannot accept McKinney’s later amendment that he was talking about many of the elements of MODWestLibDem, which is why I include his whole quote at the top. And finally, the apartheid regime was finally overcome by a BDS movement, which was a product of the kind of people McKinney usually contemptuously calls, as far as I remember, Social Justice Warriors.
    And I am not ignoring McKinney’s question about what to change in the corpus of texts being discussed because I’m not sure what the context is for compiling the texts. Is this for a particular course or discipline? Am I a Mortimer Adler figure trying to commission a several volume series of the essential works of human thought through the ages? Am I trying to make an accounting of the influences that lead to the current moment in which the capitalist representative nation state was the dominant model of political organization? Am I trying to tell the story of the idea of Universal Human Rights? I’d approach each one differently and the selection would change accordingly.
    Typically thoughtful by nous, and once said (but only once said) obviously right.
    Good question. Subject to further thought, I would say 1954, Brown v Board of Education marked the sea change in what “equality under the law” meant. Also, I was born in 1954, which probably played an important but yet-to-be discovered role.
    This did make me laugh, and I liked where McK drew the line. We await the later-mentioned discovery with bated breath.
    aka ObsidianWings
    LOL
    Why is the Holocaust not considered part of what the West has wrought?
    It is. It was.
    Well, because it wasn’t committed by the *West*. It was committed by the Nazi Party.
    Same misconception as about apartheid. It was ordered by the Nazis, but partly carried out and certainly enthusiastically collaborated in by vast swathes of the population of Germany, Poland, Lithuania etc. And there was enthusiastic collaboration in France, and the Channel Islands, and no doubt much of the rest of occupied Europe, all of whom were as steeped in the canon and just as much “adherents” (McKinney’s word) to the canon as the Brits and Americans, whatever the hell “adherents” here means in the context of the canon.
    Etc etc. I think hsh was right upthread.
    I don’t know what we’re talking about anymore, or at least not what anyone is supposed to do about it. Maybe it’s purely entertainment now.

  333. McKT: …the notion of equality under the law for women and minorities really did get its legs in the West, and more particularly in the US…
    Me: Seriously?
    McKT: Yep. Seriously…Feel free to show my the error of my way
    The fact is that the US was centuries behind other countries in recognising the principle of equality before the law.
    Slavery was written into the US Constitution from 1788 to 1868, and upheld by the Supreme Court. Nothing of the sort ever existed in England. In the 18th century, English courts usually upheld claims of slaveownership in the colonies, but at least from 1762 onwards invariably refused to recognise slave status in England, on the grounds that everyone in England had the same rights in law.
    But following Reconstruction, the US led the way in promoting equality under the law? No, the opposite. A large part of the USA developed ‘Jim Crow’ apartheid laws, which were upheld by the US Supreme Court.
    The US has done a lot to catch up since then. But it’s still a country where the Supreme Court has made it legal for politicians to close polling stations to make it harder for minorities to vote.
    The notion of equality under the law for women and minorities really did not get its legs particularly in the US.

  334. McKT: …the notion of equality under the law for women and minorities really did get its legs in the West, and more particularly in the US…
    Me: Seriously?
    McKT: Yep. Seriously…Feel free to show my the error of my way
    The fact is that the US was centuries behind other countries in recognising the principle of equality before the law.
    Slavery was written into the US Constitution from 1788 to 1868, and upheld by the Supreme Court. Nothing of the sort ever existed in England. In the 18th century, English courts usually upheld claims of slaveownership in the colonies, but at least from 1762 onwards invariably refused to recognise slave status in England, on the grounds that everyone in England had the same rights in law.
    But following Reconstruction, the US led the way in promoting equality under the law? No, the opposite. A large part of the USA developed ‘Jim Crow’ apartheid laws, which were upheld by the US Supreme Court.
    The US has done a lot to catch up since then. But it’s still a country where the Supreme Court has made it legal for politicians to close polling stations to make it harder for minorities to vote.
    The notion of equality under the law for women and minorities really did not get its legs particularly in the US.

  337. Somehow I think this discussion started from a very narrow point about how to approach classics studies and moved on to something like *what everyone should think about everything that ever happened and whose fault it was.*
    I just got back to this thread, and one thing leaps out at me. Classics, as an academic discipline, is totally focused on works from a) Greece, b) Rome, and c) Western Europe. Literature from other nations and cultures are available . . . just not in the Classics Department. And I read a number of them there.
    Once upon a time, a “liberal education” necessarily included a dollop of Classics. But these days, lots of us go thru university without ever touching it. We read literature from lots of other departments, just not that. As a result, there’s a much wider perspective.
    Maybe I’m reading something in that’s not there. But it feels like the problem for Classics is that they’ve discovered they are not only no longer central, they are barely seen as relevant at all.
    P.S. lj, I was going to end with “monku, monku, monku”. But I figured you were the only one who’d catch it.

  338. Somehow I think this discussion started from a very narrow point about how to approach classics studies and moved on to something like *what everyone should think about everything that ever happened and whose fault it was.*
    I just got back to this thread, and one thing leaps out at me. Classics, as an academic discipline, is totally focused on works from a) Greece, b) Rome, and c) Western Europe. Literature from other nations and cultures are available . . . just not in the Classics Department. And I read a number of them there.
    Once upon a time, a “liberal education” necessarily included a dollop of Classics. But these days, lots of us go thru university without ever touching it. We read literature from lots of other departments, just not that. As a result, there’s a much wider perspective.
    Maybe I’m reading something in that’s not there. But it feels like the problem for Classics is that they’ve discovered they are not only no longer central, they are barely seen as relevant at all.
    P.S. lj, I was going to end with “monku, monku, monku”. But I figured you were the only one who’d catch it.

  339. Classics departments do teach some Western Classics sort of classes as general education electives in the hope of getting a few more students through their courses and persuading the PMC (professional management class) that they deserve their budget, but the disciplinary core of Classics is teaching works of Greco-Roman antiquity in the original languages.
    And I’m all for an actual liberal education (in the traditional sense) for all university students regardless of their educational end point. I’m square in the Trivium with my Ph.D. in rhetoric. Let me at ’em for two years before we send them on to their specializations. Yes, please.

  340. Classics departments do teach some Western Classics sort of classes as general education electives in the hope of getting a few more students through their courses and persuading the PMC (professional management class) that they deserve their budget, but the disciplinary core of Classics is teaching works of Greco-Roman antiquity in the original languages.
    And I’m all for an actual liberal education (in the traditional sense) for all university students regardless of their educational end point. I’m square in the Trivium with my Ph.D. in rhetoric. Let me at ’em for two years before we send them on to their specializations. Yes, please.

  341. FWIW, I believe the remit of “Classics” departments in UK universities covers Latin and Greek language and literature, and possibly occasionally (although I am not sure about this) ancient Hebrew.
    This discussion has evolved chaotically (not a criticism) to cover what is colloquially known as “the classics”, or “the Canon of classics”, which includes but is by no means limited to the former literary works. I think this is pretty generally now held to include works like The Mahabharata, The Epic of Gilgamesh, The Tale of Genji, The Dream of the Red Chamber, and many others of which I am unaware, or cannot call to mind at the moment. McKinney’s amended theory seems to apply mainly to works of Western political and philosophical theory, but these are not monolithically “Democratically Liberal” either: see e.g. the uncritical worship of Ayn Rand among portions of the GOP. And the latter phenomenon also somewhat weirdly parallels the ongoing degradation of attitudes to science, and therefore to Enlightenment values (about the value of which I agree with lj).
    I hope this (also rather chaotic) post makes sense; it’s late here and I’m on my phone. Good night, all.

  342. FWIW, I believe the remit of “Classics” departments in UK universities covers Latin and Greek language and literature, and possibly occasionally (although I am not sure about this) ancient Hebrew.
    This discussion has evolved chaotically (not a criticism) to cover what is colloquially known as “the classics”, or “the Canon of classics”, which includes but is by no means limited to the former literary works. I think this is pretty generally now held to include works like The Mahabharata, The Epic of Gilgamesh, The Tale of Genji, The Dream of the Red Chamber, and many others of which I am unaware, or cannot call to mind at the moment. McKinney’s amended theory seems to apply mainly to works of Western political and philosophical theory, but these are not monolithically “Democratically Liberal” either: see e.g. the uncritical worship of Ayn Rand among portions of the GOP. And the latter phenomenon also somewhat weirdly parallels the ongoing degradation of attitudes to science, and therefore to Enlightenment values (about the value of which I agree with lj).
    I hope this (also rather chaotic) post makes sense; it’s late here and I’m on my phone. Good night, all.

  343. Americans and Brits, who were very much adherents to the Canon who were the principal Western belligerents against the Nazis.
    It’s worth noting that there was no shortage of supporters of Nazism and Hitler in both the UK and the US prior to (in the UK) the invasion of Poland and (in the US) Pearl Harbor.
    Even after, in both places, it just became socially unacceptable.
    That isn’t a comment about ‘the West’, it’s just a comment about human beings and their propensity to think they are superior to other people in ways that entitle them to annihilate the other people.
    It’s a common human tendency, from which our western liberal democratic ideals don’t seem to inoculate us.
    There is nothing unique to the West about wartime atrocities.
    You will get no argument from me on this point.
    I believe I’ve reached the point of affirming the obvious, which means it’s time for me to call it a day.
    Good night all!

  344. Americans and Brits, who were very much adherents to the Canon who were the principal Western belligerents against the Nazis.
    It’s worth noting that there was no shortage of supporters of Nazism and Hitler in both the UK and the US prior to (in the UK) the invasion of Poland and (in the US) Pearl Harbor.
    Even after, in both places, it just became socially unacceptable.
    That isn’t a comment about ‘the West’, it’s just a comment about human beings and their propensity to think they are superior to other people in ways that entitle them to annihilate the other people.
    It’s a common human tendency, from which our western liberal democratic ideals don’t seem to inoculate us.
    There is nothing unique to the West about wartime atrocities.
    You will get no argument from me on this point.
    I believe I’ve reached the point of affirming the obvious, which means it’s time for me to call it a day.
    Good night all!

  345. Ahh, get to prowl around here while everyone is asleep. Hope none of this induces a rage filled breakfast.
    Well, because it wasn’t committed by the *West*. It was committed by the Nazi Party.
    As might be expected, I disagree with this. If there is some principled reason for excluding Nazism from what the West is (other than it was really really bad), I don’t see it. I follow Richard Rubenstein’s thesis that the Holocaust represents “some [ed, but not all] of the most basic trends of Western civilization” and I recommend his books The Age of Triage and The Cunning of History. If you aren’t willing to hunt down those books, this wikipedia page is worthwhile to consider
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functionalism%E2%80%93intentionalism_debate
    keeping in mind the quote by Richard Bessell at the end of the article
    “The result is a much better informed, much more detailed and more nuanced picture of the Nazi regime, and most serious historians of the Nazi regime now are to some extent both ‘intentionalists’ and ‘functionalists’—insofar as those terms still can be used at all.”
    The point for me is that it isn’t the canon itself but how it is taught is one that I agree with. One interesting thing about the ‘canon’ is that it often includes works that specifically highlight minority voices, though it’s embarassing that some additions provoked/continue to provoke such bitter fights. Pie doesn’t work? Make a bigger pie.
    MkT’s list of other instances supports my feeling that it isn’t the Western part that did it, it is the people part. We far too often suck as a species. That still doesn’t negate responsibility and given that Westerners often argue that Western Civilization is the da best, you have to own that as well. For me, it would deserve being called the best if it owns up to its shortcomings.

  346. Ahh, get to prowl around here while everyone is asleep. Hope none of this induces a rage filled breakfast.
    Well, because it wasn’t committed by the *West*. It was committed by the Nazi Party.
    As might be expected, I disagree with this. If there is some principled reason for excluding Nazism from what the West is (other than it was really really bad), I don’t see it. I follow Richard Rubenstein’s thesis that the Holocaust represents “some [ed, but not all] of the most basic trends of Western civilization” and I recommend his books The Age of Triage and The Cunning of History. If you aren’t willing to hunt down those books, this wikipedia page is worthwhile to consider
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functionalism%E2%80%93intentionalism_debate
    keeping in mind the quote by Richard Bessell at the end of the article
    “The result is a much better informed, much more detailed and more nuanced picture of the Nazi regime, and most serious historians of the Nazi regime now are to some extent both ‘intentionalists’ and ‘functionalists’—insofar as those terms still can be used at all.”
    The point for me is that it isn’t the canon itself but how it is taught is one that I agree with. One interesting thing about the ‘canon’ is that it often includes works that specifically highlight minority voices, though it’s embarassing that some additions provoked/continue to provoke such bitter fights. Pie doesn’t work? Make a bigger pie.
    MkT’s list of other instances supports my feeling that it isn’t the Western part that did it, it is the people part. We far too often suck as a species. That still doesn’t negate responsibility and given that Westerners often argue that Western Civilization is the da best, you have to own that as well. For me, it would deserve being called the best if it owns up to its shortcomings.

  347. Just to add to what LJ says about the Third Reich fitting the mold of The West, one can trace a genealogy of ideas from Aristotle through Hegel to Carl Schmitt and the legal and philosophical defense of Naziism. And from Schmitt you get a (mutual) line through Leo Strauss to The Chicago School and the modern conservative embrace of the Great Books as an antidote to postmodernism and the Frankfurt School. Ironically, you also get Schmitt’s influence on the Frankfurt School, Walter Benjamin, Hannah Arendt, Derrida, and Giorgio Agamben. So it would appear that Western Civ is entirely ambivalent on the question of Naziism. It can both embrace and oppose it without contradiction.

  348. Just to add to what LJ says about the Third Reich fitting the mold of The West, one can trace a genealogy of ideas from Aristotle through Hegel to Carl Schmitt and the legal and philosophical defense of Naziism. And from Schmitt you get a (mutual) line through Leo Strauss to The Chicago School and the modern conservative embrace of the Great Books as an antidote to postmodernism and the Frankfurt School. Ironically, you also get Schmitt’s influence on the Frankfurt School, Walter Benjamin, Hannah Arendt, Derrida, and Giorgio Agamben. So it would appear that Western Civ is entirely ambivalent on the question of Naziism. It can both embrace and oppose it without contradiction.

  349. Although my Latin is decent, I read most classics in translation* (ideally in bilingual editions to have the original at hand). It’s simply a matter of economy of time. And my Greek is too rusty anyway. I can check details there, if necessary, but fluent reading is out of the question.
    Btw, I find it funny that some translations require the occasional look into the original to fully understand, usually when the translation is too literal, trying to follow the grammar and word order of the original in a way that clashes with the target language. And for some of the more ‘remote’ authors, available (free-of-charge) German translations are so old themselves that they occasionally require a dictionary. It’s a bad German habit to try to sound as old-fashioned as possible when translating authors from antiquity. English translations (in my experience) tend to go for ease of reading by contemporary audiences but in the process often sacrifice precision in detail.
    I have no ambition to be a professional classical philologist, just a schoolteacher of Latin. Otherwise I just read out of interest.
    *also several different ones in parallel in addition to the original, if I want to go deeper.

  350. Although my Latin is decent, I read most classics in translation* (ideally in bilingual editions to have the original at hand). It’s simply a matter of economy of time. And my Greek is too rusty anyway. I can check details there, if necessary, but fluent reading is out of the question.
    Btw, I find it funny that some translations require the occasional look into the original to fully understand, usually when the translation is too literal, trying to follow the grammar and word order of the original in a way that clashes with the target language. And for some of the more ‘remote’ authors, available (free-of-charge) German translations are so old themselves that they occasionally require a dictionary. It’s a bad German habit to try to sound as old-fashioned as possible when translating authors from antiquity. English translations (in my experience) tend to go for ease of reading by contemporary audiences but in the process often sacrifice precision in detail.
    I have no ambition to be a professional classical philologist, just a schoolteacher of Latin. Otherwise I just read out of interest.
    *also several different ones in parallel in addition to the original, if I want to go deeper.

  351. Ahh, and I forgot to thank wj for the monku ref
    https://blog.gaijinpot.com/mastering-the-monku/
    To nous’ comment, I think it is Rubenstein who points out how, at the turn of the century, Germany was considered the best example of Western Civ. Science and medicine, music, philosophy, the classics, Germany was primum inter pares. So if it was the epitome, why?

  352. Ahh, and I forgot to thank wj for the monku ref
    https://blog.gaijinpot.com/mastering-the-monku/
    To nous’ comment, I think it is Rubenstein who points out how, at the turn of the century, Germany was considered the best example of Western Civ. Science and medicine, music, philosophy, the classics, Germany was primum inter pares. So if it was the epitome, why?

  353. To lighten the mood a bit: a piece of law from 7th century BC from Southern Italy:
    The first written Greek law code (Locrian code), by Zaleucus in the 7th century BC, stipulated that:
    A free-born woman may not be accompanied by more than one female slave, unless she is drunk; she may not leave the city during the night, unless she is planning to commit adultery; she may not wear gold jewelry or a garment with a purple border, unless she is a courtesan; and a husband may not wear a gold-studded ring or a cloak of Milesian fashion unless he is bent upon prostitution or adultery.     (Diodorus Siculus 12.21.1)
    Probably not on the typical classics reading list. Just stumbled on it seeking material for an essay on luxury criticism in antiquity.

  354. To lighten the mood a bit: a piece of law from 7th century BC from Southern Italy:
    The first written Greek law code (Locrian code), by Zaleucus in the 7th century BC, stipulated that:
    A free-born woman may not be accompanied by more than one female slave, unless she is drunk; she may not leave the city during the night, unless she is planning to commit adultery; she may not wear gold jewelry or a garment with a purple border, unless she is a courtesan; and a husband may not wear a gold-studded ring or a cloak of Milesian fashion unless he is bent upon prostitution or adultery.     (Diodorus Siculus 12.21.1)
    Probably not on the typical classics reading list. Just stumbled on it seeking material for an essay on luxury criticism in antiquity.

  355. Excellent point @04.02, lj. It was indeed an absolute given at the time that that was Germany’s status WRT Western civilisation (which was why so many Jews felt the worst could never happen). So I’m afraid, on that score at least, McKinney’s comment is thoroughly debunked.

  356. Excellent point @04.02, lj. It was indeed an absolute given at the time that that was Germany’s status WRT Western civilisation (which was why so many Jews felt the worst could never happen). So I’m afraid, on that score at least, McKinney’s comment is thoroughly debunked.

  357. Well, because it wasn’t committed by the *West*. It was committed by the Nazi Party.
    No True Westerner would do such things.

  358. Well, because it wasn’t committed by the *West*. It was committed by the Nazi Party.
    No True Westerner would do such things.

  359. I was trying not to comment further on what McKinney was writing. Oh, well.
    There does seem to be a question-begging circularity to his argument(s). The underlying logic appears to be along the lines of “All the bad stuff that happens is just people (aberrations within a Western setting) or some other culture/society. All the good stuff, regardless of where it happens, is Western. Therefore, Westernism is good.”
    It’s an inversion of the reasoning a friend of mine memorably deployed, in which he blamed liberals for all the things he didn’t like, without respect to whether or not liberals were responsible for those things, to demonstrate that liberals were bad. (The bad things included things like requiring kids to wear headgear while bike-riding, just to provide some flavor.) I mean, liberals had to be horrible, because all the bad stuff was their fault (by definition).

  360. I was trying not to comment further on what McKinney was writing. Oh, well.
    There does seem to be a question-begging circularity to his argument(s). The underlying logic appears to be along the lines of “All the bad stuff that happens is just people (aberrations within a Western setting) or some other culture/society. All the good stuff, regardless of where it happens, is Western. Therefore, Westernism is good.”
    It’s an inversion of the reasoning a friend of mine memorably deployed, in which he blamed liberals for all the things he didn’t like, without respect to whether or not liberals were responsible for those things, to demonstrate that liberals were bad. (The bad things included things like requiring kids to wear headgear while bike-riding, just to provide some flavor.) I mean, liberals had to be horrible, because all the bad stuff was their fault (by definition).

  361. So I’m afraid, on that score at least, McKinney’s comment is thoroughly debunked.
    Hmmm. Maybe not. I have other stuff today and probably tomorrow. I will circle back, time permitting.

  362. So I’m afraid, on that score at least, McKinney’s comment is thoroughly debunked.
    Hmmm. Maybe not. I have other stuff today and probably tomorrow. I will circle back, time permitting.

  365. Looking forward to it, McKinney. When you come back, don’t forget that nobody on ObWi is claiming what you rebut here:
    There is nothing unique to the West about wartime atrocities. Not for nothing are the Japanese still not well regarded in Vietnam, the Philippines, Korea and elsewhere. Nor are non-Western atrocities limited to war: the Uighurs, Tibetians, Falun Gong, citizens of Hong Kong and maybe someday the Taiwanese. And there is Cambodia too. A other stuff.
    Whoever you are arguing with here, as so often, it’s not us.

  366. Looking forward to it, McKinney. When you come back, don’t forget that nobody on ObWi is claiming what you rebut here:
    There is nothing unique to the West about wartime atrocities. Not for nothing are the Japanese still not well regarded in Vietnam, the Philippines, Korea and elsewhere. Nor are non-Western atrocities limited to war: the Uighurs, Tibetians, Falun Gong, citizens of Hong Kong and maybe someday the Taiwanese. And there is Cambodia too. A other stuff.
    Whoever you are arguing with here, as so often, it’s not us.

  367. what makes western civ the best is that any atrocities it caused are automatically nullified by atrocities other countries have caused; but it’s a one way effect. European colonialism is excused by Japanese colonialism, but Japanese colonialism is not excused by European colonialism.
    if other civilizations could pull that off, they’d be great too. but… sucks for them.

  368. what makes western civ the best is that any atrocities it caused are automatically nullified by atrocities other countries have caused; but it’s a one way effect. European colonialism is excused by Japanese colonialism, but Japanese colonialism is not excused by European colonialism.
    if other civilizations could pull that off, they’d be great too. but… sucks for them.

  373. Someone has probably made this point somewhere in this thread already, but one thing about Western culture/civilization that sets it apart from others is the degree to which it has been imposed on the rest of the world. Most of the planet has little choice but to recon with the West, whereas the West can afford to mostly ignore how the rest of the planet traditionally has done things, Genghis Khan notwithstanding.
    It’s like speaking English and having far less of a need to learn other languages than everyone else does.

  374. Someone has probably made this point somewhere in this thread already, but one thing about Western culture/civilization that sets it apart from others is the degree to which it has been imposed on the rest of the world. Most of the planet has little choice but to recon with the West, whereas the West can afford to mostly ignore how the rest of the planet traditionally has done things, Genghis Khan notwithstanding.
    It’s like speaking English and having far less of a need to learn other languages than everyone else does.

  375. Yes, and postcolonial scholars are always pointing out the degree to which subjugation and exploitation distort a culture and a set of relations and sets up something like the Matthew Effect.
    Aside: the one thing that always vexes me in discussions of Great Books and Western Civ is the degree to which certain people seem invested not in the ideas, but in maintaining and defending the Myth of the West. There is that weirdly proprietary attitude and insistence on policing the margins of center/periphery to hoard praise and parse out blame and mark that in language.
    It’s not a trait that is exclusive to the Westernness Chauvinists, but it is the xenophobic, tribal seed that leads to dehumanization and atrocities.

  376. Yes, and postcolonial scholars are always pointing out the degree to which subjugation and exploitation distort a culture and a set of relations and sets up something like the Matthew Effect.
    Aside: the one thing that always vexes me in discussions of Great Books and Western Civ is the degree to which certain people seem invested not in the ideas, but in maintaining and defending the Myth of the West. There is that weirdly proprietary attitude and insistence on policing the margins of center/periphery to hoard praise and parse out blame and mark that in language.
    It’s not a trait that is exclusive to the Westernness Chauvinists, but it is the xenophobic, tribal seed that leads to dehumanization and atrocities.

  377. one thing about Western culture/civilization that sets it apart from others is the degree to which it has been imposed on the rest of the world.
    Some of it has been imposed. But other big chunks got embraced voluntarily. English is widely spoken in places that were never British (or American) colonies, for example. And other colonizers, over the centuries, saw their language fall from use after they left.
    Popular music has Western roots from Korea to Kenya. But nobody forced it on anyone . . . except maybe kids on their parents.
    Imposition can be problematic. But voluntary adoption? Hard to see that as an evil. (Unless you’re a staunch cultural conservative, who hates to see the world changing around you.)

  378. one thing about Western culture/civilization that sets it apart from others is the degree to which it has been imposed on the rest of the world.
    Some of it has been imposed. But other big chunks got embraced voluntarily. English is widely spoken in places that were never British (or American) colonies, for example. And other colonizers, over the centuries, saw their language fall from use after they left.
    Popular music has Western roots from Korea to Kenya. But nobody forced it on anyone . . . except maybe kids on their parents.
    Imposition can be problematic. But voluntary adoption? Hard to see that as an evil. (Unless you’re a staunch cultural conservative, who hates to see the world changing around you.)

  379. “Western” popular music is largely African in its roots, filtered through the lens of slavery and forced assimilation, so…

  380. “Western” popular music is largely African in its roots, filtered through the lens of slavery and forced assimilation, so…

  381. Of course it is. But do kids in Asia know? Or care? For them, and their parents, it’s just more “Western culture”.

  382. Of course it is. But do kids in Asia know? Or care? For them, and their parents, it’s just more “Western culture”.

  383. Good, I suppose, to have this cleared up.

    Cheney prevailed after a tense four-hour House GOP meeting yesterday, in a 145-61 vote by secret ballot, a format sparing individual lawmakers from potential retribution. (In contrast, just 10 House Republicans had voted to impeach Trump, while 139 voted to overturn the election.)

    What that means is there are 10 House Republicans who are willing to do their damn job, vs 61 outright seditionists. And 100+ who are aware of the right to do, but lack the courage to risk losing the job that they aren’t willing to do. Most impressively, the guy who voted “present” on a secret ballot! Talk about a profile in courage.

  384. Good, I suppose, to have this cleared up.

    Cheney prevailed after a tense four-hour House GOP meeting yesterday, in a 145-61 vote by secret ballot, a format sparing individual lawmakers from potential retribution. (In contrast, just 10 House Republicans had voted to impeach Trump, while 139 voted to overturn the election.)

    What that means is there are 10 House Republicans who are willing to do their damn job, vs 61 outright seditionists. And 100+ who are aware of the right to do, but lack the courage to risk losing the job that they aren’t willing to do. Most impressively, the guy who voted “present” on a secret ballot! Talk about a profile in courage.

  385. “Western” popular music is largely African in its roots
    now that blues-based rock has faded away, harmony in western pop is mostly based in classic European theory (with other stuff thrown in for flavor). and a lot of pop rhythms have become glitchy, tricky, chopped-up studio creations rather than anything clearly African.
    vocal styles like African-American rap and gospel (in ballads) are common. but huge stars like Taylor Swift and Adele aren’t doing either.
    it’s more electronic than anything else. just get that 4/4 pumping and put a bunch of big happy chord resolutions between breaks where people wave their phones around.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkfyu9Sxr8g

  386. “Western” popular music is largely African in its roots
    now that blues-based rock has faded away, harmony in western pop is mostly based in classic European theory (with other stuff thrown in for flavor). and a lot of pop rhythms have become glitchy, tricky, chopped-up studio creations rather than anything clearly African.
    vocal styles like African-American rap and gospel (in ballads) are common. but huge stars like Taylor Swift and Adele aren’t doing either.
    it’s more electronic than anything else. just get that 4/4 pumping and put a bunch of big happy chord resolutions between breaks where people wave their phones around.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkfyu9Sxr8g

  389. alternate take on Peralta:

    I am a woman and a classics professor, teaching the ancient texts of Greece and Rome — in other words, works by the original “dead white men.” Some teachers argue that texts once read by elites or used in the service of oppression are morally tainted for that reason. So serious a scholar as Princeton’s Dan-el Padilla Peralta has suggested that the history of these classical works has condemned them to ignominy as instrumental to the invention of “whiteness.”
    But I’d suggest that if this is the path we take, we’re in trouble.
    The alt-right has no compunction about appropriating antiquity for its own ends — as can be seen images from the Jan. 6 Capitol invasion, as some rioters wore Greek helmets and carried flags with the phrase “molon labe” (“come and get our weapons”). This distorted reference to the Spartan stand against the Persians at Thermopylae in 480 B.C. reflects the supremacist belief that the Spartans saved “the white race” from barbarians.
    I don’t want to throw up my hands and yield ancient history and ancient literature to this group.

  390. alternate take on Peralta:

    I am a woman and a classics professor, teaching the ancient texts of Greece and Rome — in other words, works by the original “dead white men.” Some teachers argue that texts once read by elites or used in the service of oppression are morally tainted for that reason. So serious a scholar as Princeton’s Dan-el Padilla Peralta has suggested that the history of these classical works has condemned them to ignominy as instrumental to the invention of “whiteness.”
    But I’d suggest that if this is the path we take, we’re in trouble.
    The alt-right has no compunction about appropriating antiquity for its own ends — as can be seen images from the Jan. 6 Capitol invasion, as some rioters wore Greek helmets and carried flags with the phrase “molon labe” (“come and get our weapons”). This distorted reference to the Spartan stand against the Persians at Thermopylae in 480 B.C. reflects the supremacist belief that the Spartans saved “the white race” from barbarians.
    I don’t want to throw up my hands and yield ancient history and ancient literature to this group.

  391. one more and i’ll go away:

    Smartmatic, an election technology company, has followed through on a threat to sue the parent company of Fox News over comments made on the network suggesting that the company participated in fraudulent activities during the Nov. 3 presidential election.
    The company filed suit Thursday in New York State Court in Manhattan, seeking $2.7 billion for defamation and disparagement and accusing Fox News of fomenting a “disinformation campaign against Smartmatic.”

  392. one more and i’ll go away:

    Smartmatic, an election technology company, has followed through on a threat to sue the parent company of Fox News over comments made on the network suggesting that the company participated in fraudulent activities during the Nov. 3 presidential election.
    The company filed suit Thursday in New York State Court in Manhattan, seeking $2.7 billion for defamation and disparagement and accusing Fox News of fomenting a “disinformation campaign against Smartmatic.”

  393. So serious a scholar as Princeton’s Dan-el Padilla Peralta has suggested that the history of these classical works has condemned them to ignominy as instrumental to the invention of “whiteness.”
    But I’d suggest that if this is the path we take, we’re in trouble.
    ***
    I don’t want to throw up my hands and yield ancient history and ancient literature to this group.
    I completely agree with you, cleek. One can (and should) analyse and interrogate the way something has been used and co-opted by idiots and/or malefactors, without having to lose or give up its well-established benefits (and pleasures).

  394. So serious a scholar as Princeton’s Dan-el Padilla Peralta has suggested that the history of these classical works has condemned them to ignominy as instrumental to the invention of “whiteness.”
    But I’d suggest that if this is the path we take, we’re in trouble.
    ***
    I don’t want to throw up my hands and yield ancient history and ancient literature to this group.
    I completely agree with you, cleek. One can (and should) analyse and interrogate the way something has been used and co-opted by idiots and/or malefactors, without having to lose or give up its well-established benefits (and pleasures).

  395. Assuming, that is, that by “this group” you were referring more to those that have used it to establish a myth of the superiority of whiteness, rather than those academics who are doing the analysis and interrogation. These latter would have to seriously mean that “the history of these classical works has condemned them [the works] to ignominy”. I admit I haven’t had the time to read the original Peralta piece yet, but I find it hard to believe this absurd idea, as said here, is what was seriously meant.

  396. Assuming, that is, that by “this group” you were referring more to those that have used it to establish a myth of the superiority of whiteness, rather than those academics who are doing the analysis and interrogation. These latter would have to seriously mean that “the history of these classical works has condemned them [the works] to ignominy”. I admit I haven’t had the time to read the original Peralta piece yet, but I find it hard to believe this absurd idea, as said here, is what was seriously meant.

  397. Well, I have now read the Peralta piece. Apart from the fact that he is clearly a brilliant and innovative teacher, and that I sympathise with the personal experience and evolution that have led to his views, I would be sad to see the kind of change he envisages. I liked what Mary Beard said:
    “I very much admire Dan-el’s work, and like him, I deplore the lack of diversity in the classical profession,” Mary Beard told me via email. But “to ‘condemn’ classical culture would be as simplistic as to offer it unconditional admiration.” She went on: “My line has always been that the duty of the academic is to make things seem more complicated.” In a 2019 talk, Beard argued that “although classics may become politicized, it doesn’t actually have a politics,” meaning that, like the Bible, the classical tradition is a language of authority — a vocabulary that can be used for good or ill by would-be emancipators and oppressors alike. Over the centuries, classical civilization has acted as a model for people of many backgrounds, who turned it into a matrix through which they formed and debated ideas about beauty, ethics, power, nature, selfhood, citizenship and, of course, race.

  398. Well, I have now read the Peralta piece. Apart from the fact that he is clearly a brilliant and innovative teacher, and that I sympathise with the personal experience and evolution that have led to his views, I would be sad to see the kind of change he envisages. I liked what Mary Beard said:
    “I very much admire Dan-el’s work, and like him, I deplore the lack of diversity in the classical profession,” Mary Beard told me via email. But “to ‘condemn’ classical culture would be as simplistic as to offer it unconditional admiration.” She went on: “My line has always been that the duty of the academic is to make things seem more complicated.” In a 2019 talk, Beard argued that “although classics may become politicized, it doesn’t actually have a politics,” meaning that, like the Bible, the classical tradition is a language of authority — a vocabulary that can be used for good or ill by would-be emancipators and oppressors alike. Over the centuries, classical civilization has acted as a model for people of many backgrounds, who turned it into a matrix through which they formed and debated ideas about beauty, ethics, power, nature, selfhood, citizenship and, of course, race.

  399. Bartsch’s take on Peralta seems to imply that Peralta argues that scholars should abandon the study of texts from Greco-Roman antiquity. That is not what I took from Peralta and it seems to me that what Peralta suggests is not at all abandoning the field of battle for ideas, but rather the disciplinary formation of a department dedicated solely to Greek and Roman texts and unattached to courses in history, language, anthropology, philosophy, or cultural studies.
    Classics is a weird historical artifact. It pre-exists the various fields of cultural studies, but I think cultural studies exist as a critique of the blind spots in a curriculum built on Classics and old style history viewed entirely from a male, European, culturally Christian perspective. Were Classics to have developed today it would be, I think, more resistant to co-option by the anti-modern right. Those types are not getting their scholarship from modern Classics scholars, but rather from scholars a century gone, before all of these upstart disciplines insisted that room be made for other voices and perspectives.
    I’m glad that modern Classics scholars are taking a wider view. I want them to continue doing their research. I’d just like to see them do it from within other departments or schools where their work would be part of a wider dialogue and not an isolated department trapped in amber.
    I think Bartsch is responding to and arguing against the lazy reception of Peralta’s arguments more than she is against Peralta himself.

  400. Bartsch’s take on Peralta seems to imply that Peralta argues that scholars should abandon the study of texts from Greco-Roman antiquity. That is not what I took from Peralta and it seems to me that what Peralta suggests is not at all abandoning the field of battle for ideas, but rather the disciplinary formation of a department dedicated solely to Greek and Roman texts and unattached to courses in history, language, anthropology, philosophy, or cultural studies.
    Classics is a weird historical artifact. It pre-exists the various fields of cultural studies, but I think cultural studies exist as a critique of the blind spots in a curriculum built on Classics and old style history viewed entirely from a male, European, culturally Christian perspective. Were Classics to have developed today it would be, I think, more resistant to co-option by the anti-modern right. Those types are not getting their scholarship from modern Classics scholars, but rather from scholars a century gone, before all of these upstart disciplines insisted that room be made for other voices and perspectives.
    I’m glad that modern Classics scholars are taking a wider view. I want them to continue doing their research. I’d just like to see them do it from within other departments or schools where their work would be part of a wider dialogue and not an isolated department trapped in amber.
    I think Bartsch is responding to and arguing against the lazy reception of Peralta’s arguments more than she is against Peralta himself.

  401. I should also point out that resistance to Peralta likely comes less from disagreement with what he is saying and more from the fear that if Classics were to disappear as a discipline that the budget set aside for Classics (and the Classics scholars’ say over how that budget got spent) would all go to another department where their own agency would be diluted by other projects. They don’t want to become just a Program in Greco-Roman Studies and have to fight for their continued existence the way that other cultural studies programs do when a budget gets squeezed.

  402. I should also point out that resistance to Peralta likely comes less from disagreement with what he is saying and more from the fear that if Classics were to disappear as a discipline that the budget set aside for Classics (and the Classics scholars’ say over how that budget got spent) would all go to another department where their own agency would be diluted by other projects. They don’t want to become just a Program in Greco-Roman Studies and have to fight for their continued existence the way that other cultural studies programs do when a budget gets squeezed.

  403. I’m glad that modern Classics scholars are taking a wider view. I want them to continue doing their research. I’d just like to see them do it from within other departments or schools where their work would be part of a wider dialogue and not an isolated department trapped in amber
    It seems to be a question of whether one wants the Classics Departments to open up and broaden their perspectives. Or whether one would prefer that any open-minded scholars there decamp to other fields, leaving Classics to crystallize into more extreme isolation.
    It’s a dilemma that faces any institution with multiple views: encourage diversity and widening horizons, or exile the heretics to keep the institution pure.

  404. I’m glad that modern Classics scholars are taking a wider view. I want them to continue doing their research. I’d just like to see them do it from within other departments or schools where their work would be part of a wider dialogue and not an isolated department trapped in amber
    It seems to be a question of whether one wants the Classics Departments to open up and broaden their perspectives. Or whether one would prefer that any open-minded scholars there decamp to other fields, leaving Classics to crystallize into more extreme isolation.
    It’s a dilemma that faces any institution with multiple views: encourage diversity and widening horizons, or exile the heretics to keep the institution pure.

  405. It seems to be a question of whether one wants the Classics Departments to open up and broaden their perspectives. Or whether one would prefer that any open-minded scholars there decamp to other fields, leaving Classics to crystallize into more extreme isolation.
    Classics would not crystalize. Were it to shrink too much the PMC would dissolve the department and reclaim the budget.
    The worst possible fate, as far as I can tell, would be for Classics to get scrapped, only to have some deep-pocket, right wing donor come to the university wanting to create My Last Name Center for Classical Antiquity, drop many millions of dollars in the university’s lap, and then try hard to use that donation as a way of leveraging influence over the sort of work done and people hired at the Center.
    Hindu fundamentalists tried doing something like that at UCI a few years back with a Center for Indian Studies.

  406. It seems to be a question of whether one wants the Classics Departments to open up and broaden their perspectives. Or whether one would prefer that any open-minded scholars there decamp to other fields, leaving Classics to crystallize into more extreme isolation.
    Classics would not crystalize. Were it to shrink too much the PMC would dissolve the department and reclaim the budget.
    The worst possible fate, as far as I can tell, would be for Classics to get scrapped, only to have some deep-pocket, right wing donor come to the university wanting to create My Last Name Center for Classical Antiquity, drop many millions of dollars in the university’s lap, and then try hard to use that donation as a way of leveraging influence over the sort of work done and people hired at the Center.
    Hindu fundamentalists tried doing something like that at UCI a few years back with a Center for Indian Studies.

  409. Also, to pick at the context a bit, I have to wonder if the vehemence of Peralta’s arguments is partially due to George Floyd murder and the other incident. If I were a person of color, if I felt my work contributed to the social climate we see now, I could easily understand the frustration coming out. The description of the class, which sounds like an intro class
    Padilla called the claimants up to the front of the room. At first, they stood uncertainly on the dais, like adolescents auditioning for a school play. Then, slowly, they moved into the rows of wooden desks. I watched as one of them, a young man wearing an Army-green football T-shirt that said “Support Our Troops,” propositioned a group of legionaries. “I’ll take land from non-Romans and give it to you, grant you citizenship,” he promised them. As more students left their seats and began negotiating, bids and counterbids reverberated against the stone walls. Not everyone was taking it seriously. At one point, another claimant approached a blue-eyed legionary in a lacrosse sweatshirt to ask what it would take to gain his support. “I just want to defend my right to party,” he responded. “Can I get a statue erected to my mother?” someone else asked. A stocky blond student kept charging to the front of the room and proposing that they simply “kill everybody.” But Padilla seemed energized by the chaos. He moved from group to group, sowing discord. “Why let someone else take over?” he asked one student. If you are a soldier or a peasant who is unhappy with imperial governance, he told another, how do you resist? “What kinds of alliances can you broker?”
    If I were a person of color (I’m not really) and I had to deal with the stocky blonde student in my classroom, the reporter coming to me might get an earful. (it also had me wonder, was this pre covid? Do US uni classrooms look like that now?) It points out that his turn occurs roughly at the same time as Trump coming to office
    Around the time that Padilla began working on the paper, Donald Trump made his first comments on the presidential campaign trail about Mexican “criminals, drug dealers, rapists” coming into the country. Padilla, who spent the previous 20 years dealing with an uncertain immigration status, had just applied for a green card after celebrating his marriage to a social worker named Missy from Sparta, N.J. Now he watched as alt-right figures like Richard Spencer, who had fantasized about creating a “white ethno-state on the North American continent” that would be “a reconstitution of the Roman Empire,” rose to national prominence. In response to rising anti-immigrant sentiment in Europe and the United States, Mary Beard, perhaps the most famous classicist alive, wrote in The Wall Street Journal that the Romans “would have been puzzled by our modern problems with migration and asylum,” because the empire was founded on the “principles of incorporation and of the free movement of people.”
    There is also what the reporter wants to highlight. ‘If it bleeds, it leads’, so there is some value in making Peralta’s criticisms as broad as possible.
    Nous’ comments about how the survival of these programs may be foremost on some scholars’s minds, which would lead them to oppose Peralta’s observations.
    Lastly, I find it the reporter quoting Mary Beard. the woman speaking at the conference to challenge Peralta and Cleek’s link to Bartsch has me wondering about the difference in approaches by gender. To make a huge overgeneralization, as a man, the operant behavior is to confront it and defeat it. Never admit you are wrong and never cede an inch. If an inconvenient argument comes up, you simply ignore it and move the argument to some place else. We see that here and I certainly fall prey to it.
    On the other hand, a archetypical “feminine” approach is to argue for change from within. That’s what Wilson, the translator of the Odyssey points out. I tend to feel that way, you push for diversity as an antidote. However, reading about some of the reactions to Peralta, especially the ones implying that he’s a minority hire and not really qualified as in here. This, to me, was telling.
    In response [to an open letter written together with other Princeton faculty], Joshua Katz, a prominent Princeton classicist, published an op-ed in the online magazine Quillette in which he referred to the Black Justice League, a student group, as a “terrorist organization” and warned that certain proposals in the faculty letter would “lead to civil war on campus.”
    It’s not really hard to imagine how my attitude would harden if I had colleagues who were that dismissive of my claims. But I also have to be cognizant of how much I can push. And this is exacerbated by what nous points out, that how resources are distributed are arguments that are often in search of rationales
    Anyway, interesting stuff. Thanks all.

  410. Also, to pick at the context a bit, I have to wonder if the vehemence of Peralta’s arguments is partially due to George Floyd murder and the other incident. If I were a person of color, if I felt my work contributed to the social climate we see now, I could easily understand the frustration coming out. The description of the class, which sounds like an intro class
    Padilla called the claimants up to the front of the room. At first, they stood uncertainly on the dais, like adolescents auditioning for a school play. Then, slowly, they moved into the rows of wooden desks. I watched as one of them, a young man wearing an Army-green football T-shirt that said “Support Our Troops,” propositioned a group of legionaries. “I’ll take land from non-Romans and give it to you, grant you citizenship,” he promised them. As more students left their seats and began negotiating, bids and counterbids reverberated against the stone walls. Not everyone was taking it seriously. At one point, another claimant approached a blue-eyed legionary in a lacrosse sweatshirt to ask what it would take to gain his support. “I just want to defend my right to party,” he responded. “Can I get a statue erected to my mother?” someone else asked. A stocky blond student kept charging to the front of the room and proposing that they simply “kill everybody.” But Padilla seemed energized by the chaos. He moved from group to group, sowing discord. “Why let someone else take over?” he asked one student. If you are a soldier or a peasant who is unhappy with imperial governance, he told another, how do you resist? “What kinds of alliances can you broker?”
    If I were a person of color (I’m not really) and I had to deal with the stocky blonde student in my classroom, the reporter coming to me might get an earful. (it also had me wonder, was this pre covid? Do US uni classrooms look like that now?) It points out that his turn occurs roughly at the same time as Trump coming to office
    Around the time that Padilla began working on the paper, Donald Trump made his first comments on the presidential campaign trail about Mexican “criminals, drug dealers, rapists” coming into the country. Padilla, who spent the previous 20 years dealing with an uncertain immigration status, had just applied for a green card after celebrating his marriage to a social worker named Missy from Sparta, N.J. Now he watched as alt-right figures like Richard Spencer, who had fantasized about creating a “white ethno-state on the North American continent” that would be “a reconstitution of the Roman Empire,” rose to national prominence. In response to rising anti-immigrant sentiment in Europe and the United States, Mary Beard, perhaps the most famous classicist alive, wrote in The Wall Street Journal that the Romans “would have been puzzled by our modern problems with migration and asylum,” because the empire was founded on the “principles of incorporation and of the free movement of people.”
    There is also what the reporter wants to highlight. ‘If it bleeds, it leads’, so there is some value in making Peralta’s criticisms as broad as possible.
    Nous’ comments about how the survival of these programs may be foremost on some scholars’s minds, which would lead them to oppose Peralta’s observations.
    Lastly, I find it the reporter quoting Mary Beard. the woman speaking at the conference to challenge Peralta and Cleek’s link to Bartsch has me wondering about the difference in approaches by gender. To make a huge overgeneralization, as a man, the operant behavior is to confront it and defeat it. Never admit you are wrong and never cede an inch. If an inconvenient argument comes up, you simply ignore it and move the argument to some place else. We see that here and I certainly fall prey to it.
    On the other hand, a archetypical “feminine” approach is to argue for change from within. That’s what Wilson, the translator of the Odyssey points out. I tend to feel that way, you push for diversity as an antidote. However, reading about some of the reactions to Peralta, especially the ones implying that he’s a minority hire and not really qualified as in here. This, to me, was telling.
    In response [to an open letter written together with other Princeton faculty], Joshua Katz, a prominent Princeton classicist, published an op-ed in the online magazine Quillette in which he referred to the Black Justice League, a student group, as a “terrorist organization” and warned that certain proposals in the faculty letter would “lead to civil war on campus.”
    It’s not really hard to imagine how my attitude would harden if I had colleagues who were that dismissive of my claims. But I also have to be cognizant of how much I can push. And this is exacerbated by what nous points out, that how resources are distributed are arguments that are often in search of rationales
    Anyway, interesting stuff. Thanks all.

  411. you know, if i was asked to come up with a list of adjectives to describe my identity and values, i don’t think “white” would be anywhere near the top 10. and if it popped into my head as i was making the list i would question why it did and try to work on that.
    but if you’re the darling of the Republican caucus:

    Marjorie Taylor Greene
    🇺🇸
    @mtgreenee
    If @SpeakerPelosi was the minority leader, she would pull every identity politics trick in the book to defend her member.
    White, Woman, Wife, Mother, Christian, Conservative, Business Owner
    These are the reasons they don’t want me on Ed & Labor.
    It’s my identity & my values.

    also: only Dems care about identity

  412. you know, if i was asked to come up with a list of adjectives to describe my identity and values, i don’t think “white” would be anywhere near the top 10. and if it popped into my head as i was making the list i would question why it did and try to work on that.
    but if you’re the darling of the Republican caucus:

    Marjorie Taylor Greene
    🇺🇸
    @mtgreenee
    If @SpeakerPelosi was the minority leader, she would pull every identity politics trick in the book to defend her member.
    White, Woman, Wife, Mother, Christian, Conservative, Business Owner
    These are the reasons they don’t want me on Ed & Labor.
    It’s my identity & my values.

    also: only Dems care about identity

  413. “It’s my identity & my values.”
    No.
    “Asshole” is her identity marker, her cultivated genotype, her blood type.
    And now it’s viral and metastasizing masklessly and zombielike.
    There’s a scene in Tarentino’s “One Upon a Time in Hollywood” in which the viewer is foreshadowed the full chilling, inexorable murderousness of Manson’s girls.
    Everything from these filth prior to 1/6 was such a foreshadowing of that day and worse ones to come.
    If she announced she was trans, for example, it wouldn’t change her essential evil assholishness at the cellular level.
    She’d merely be a trans asshole, and a dangerous one.
    Trump is Manson. Trump is Jim Jones.
    I don’t think any of the Manson girls (and boys) kept their jobs after the Tate murders.
    But republican and conservative assholes seeded into the deep state by idol Trump seem to keep theirs.
    We’re in a fucked up place and everyone is walking around trying to act normal.
    Boebert has big balls, unlike the Kymer Rouge, who at least had the good form to shut their mouths and melt into the jungle and lay low after the jig was up.
    I just received an email from one of many dearest, oldest friends containing an unsigned “editorial” that is pure QAnon, Trumpian dogshit, and fully endorsed as a vision of the future of this country by this friend.
    I know not what.
    I’m tired of f@cking tip-toeing around.

  414. “It’s my identity & my values.”
    No.
    “Asshole” is her identity marker, her cultivated genotype, her blood type.
    And now it’s viral and metastasizing masklessly and zombielike.
    There’s a scene in Tarentino’s “One Upon a Time in Hollywood” in which the viewer is foreshadowed the full chilling, inexorable murderousness of Manson’s girls.
    Everything from these filth prior to 1/6 was such a foreshadowing of that day and worse ones to come.
    If she announced she was trans, for example, it wouldn’t change her essential evil assholishness at the cellular level.
    She’d merely be a trans asshole, and a dangerous one.
    Trump is Manson. Trump is Jim Jones.
    I don’t think any of the Manson girls (and boys) kept their jobs after the Tate murders.
    But republican and conservative assholes seeded into the deep state by idol Trump seem to keep theirs.
    We’re in a fucked up place and everyone is walking around trying to act normal.
    Boebert has big balls, unlike the Kymer Rouge, who at least had the good form to shut their mouths and melt into the jungle and lay low after the jig was up.
    I just received an email from one of many dearest, oldest friends containing an unsigned “editorial” that is pure QAnon, Trumpian dogshit, and fully endorsed as a vision of the future of this country by this friend.
    I know not what.
    I’m tired of f@cking tip-toeing around.

  415. Interesting, she seems to realize that the false flag crap is a dead end. Hope they hang that around her neck like an anvil…

  416. Interesting, she seems to realize that the false flag crap is a dead end. Hope they hang that around her neck like an anvil…

  417. White, Woman, Wife, Mother, Christian, Conservative, Business Owner
    These are the reasons they don’t want me on Ed & Labor.
    Nothing I’m about to say is anything other than obvious, but just to lay it out:
    Are there any white people on Ed and Labor? Any women? Wives? Mothers, Christians, conservatives, business owners?
    Any of the above, on Ed & Labor? Hey look, we can answer this question. Here is the membership.
    Maybe the issue is something else, Rep Greene.
    I have no idea if she believes the crap – the toxic lies – that she espouses, or if she’s just pimping that crap for votes.
    You can’t endorse talk about shooting the Speaker of the House in the head, and expect to work in the body that she leads, without some kind of response. Ditto talk about shooting FBI agents.
    Greene and people like her are irresponsible children. The rest of us are not obliged to accept or even tolerate their behavior.

  418. White, Woman, Wife, Mother, Christian, Conservative, Business Owner
    These are the reasons they don’t want me on Ed & Labor.
    Nothing I’m about to say is anything other than obvious, but just to lay it out:
    Are there any white people on Ed and Labor? Any women? Wives? Mothers, Christians, conservatives, business owners?
    Any of the above, on Ed & Labor? Hey look, we can answer this question. Here is the membership.
    Maybe the issue is something else, Rep Greene.
    I have no idea if she believes the crap – the toxic lies – that she espouses, or if she’s just pimping that crap for votes.
    You can’t endorse talk about shooting the Speaker of the House in the head, and expect to work in the body that she leads, without some kind of response. Ditto talk about shooting FBI agents.
    Greene and people like her are irresponsible children. The rest of us are not obliged to accept or even tolerate their behavior.

  419. I have no idea if she believes the crap – the toxic lies – that she espouses, or if she’s just pimping that crap for votes.
    I suspect she does believe it. Wants to believe it. Because the alternative is facing the real reasons people object to her — as a member of Congress and as an (excuse for a) human being.

  420. I have no idea if she believes the crap – the toxic lies – that she espouses, or if she’s just pimping that crap for votes.
    I suspect she does believe it. Wants to believe it. Because the alternative is facing the real reasons people object to her — as a member of Congress and as an (excuse for a) human being.

  421. Put a pin in “Christian”.
    Martin Luther King was a Christian, too. A theological debate between him and Marjorie would be a pay-per-view event, for me.
    –TP

  422. Put a pin in “Christian”.
    Martin Luther King was a Christian, too. A theological debate between him and Marjorie would be a pay-per-view event, for me.
    –TP

  425. I’m curious about the notion that keeping Greene around to make the GOP look crazy is a good strategy for Democrats. It appeals to me intuitively, but it gives me the willies at the same time.

  426. I’m curious about the notion that keeping Greene around to make the GOP look crazy is a good strategy for Democrats. It appeals to me intuitively, but it gives me the willies at the same time.

  427. A majority of Republican voters said if former President Trump were to start a new political party they would likely join, a new Hill-HarrisX poll finds.
    Sixty-four percent of registered Republican voters in the Jan. 28-29 survey said they’d join a new political party led by the former president, including 32 percent who said they would very likely join.
    By contrast, 36 percent of Republican respondents said they are either very or somewhat unlikely to join.

    cult

  428. A majority of Republican voters said if former President Trump were to start a new political party they would likely join, a new Hill-HarrisX poll finds.
    Sixty-four percent of registered Republican voters in the Jan. 28-29 survey said they’d join a new political party led by the former president, including 32 percent who said they would very likely join.
    By contrast, 36 percent of Republican respondents said they are either very or somewhat unlikely to join.

    cult

  429. Martin Luther King was a Christian, too. A theological debate between him and Marjorie would be a pay-per-view event, for me
    We don’t need to bring back the dead, we could ask William Barber or Rev. Warnock.
    Then again, it would be a massive waste of their time, so never mind.

  430. Martin Luther King was a Christian, too. A theological debate between him and Marjorie would be a pay-per-view event, for me
    We don’t need to bring back the dead, we could ask William Barber or Rev. Warnock.
    Then again, it would be a massive waste of their time, so never mind.

  431. Then again, it would be a massive waste of their time
    You can’t really have a debate with someone who doesn’t accept at least a few premises regarding the topic in common. All you can do is take turns** stating views with minimal if any relationship to each other.
    ** Assuming both parties are willing to. No bets on that when Greene is involved.

  432. Then again, it would be a massive waste of their time
    You can’t really have a debate with someone who doesn’t accept at least a few premises regarding the topic in common. All you can do is take turns** stating views with minimal if any relationship to each other.
    ** Assuming both parties are willing to. No bets on that when Greene is involved.

  433. Answer: Ostriches, emus, pigs, and H.R.127.
    Question: Name four things that are never going to fly.
    “The registration requirement applies to both currently owned firearms and guns purchased after the bill takes effect. The bill would give current owners three months to report “the make, model, and the serial number of the firearm, the identity of the owner of the firearm, the date the firearm was acquired by the owner, and where the firearm is or will be stored” as well as “the identity of any person to whom, and any period of time during which, the firearm will be loaned to the person.” New buyers would have to report that information on the date of purchase. Failure to comply would be punishable by a minimum fine of $75,000, a minimum prison sentence of 15 years, or both.
    Licenses would be limited to people 21 or older who pass a criminal background check, undergo a “psychological examination,” complete at least 24 hours of training and pay an $800 “fee” for liability insurance. The examination, which may include assessing “other members of the household in which the individual resides,” would be conducted by a government-approved psychologist charged with determining whether the applicant is “psychologically unsuited to possess a firearm.”
    The psychologist would be required to interview “any spouse of the individual, any former spouse of the individual, and at least 2 other persons who are a member of the family of, or an associate of, the individual to further determine the state of the mental, emotional, and relational stability of the individual in relation to firearms.” Denial of a license would be mandatory if the applicant has ever been “hospitalized” because of “conduct that endangers self or others,” a “brain disease” such as “dementia or Alzheimer’s,” or a “mental illness, disturbance, or diagnosis,” including (but not necessarily limited to) depression, homicidal ideation, suicidal ideation, attempted suicide, and addiction to a controlled substance or alcohol.”
    This Draconian Bill Would Turn Millions of Peaceful Gun Owners Into Felons: Sheila Jackson Lee’s sweeping licensing and registration scheme suggests what Democrats would do if they didn’t have to worry about the Second Amendment.

  434. Answer: Ostriches, emus, pigs, and H.R.127.
    Question: Name four things that are never going to fly.
    “The registration requirement applies to both currently owned firearms and guns purchased after the bill takes effect. The bill would give current owners three months to report “the make, model, and the serial number of the firearm, the identity of the owner of the firearm, the date the firearm was acquired by the owner, and where the firearm is or will be stored” as well as “the identity of any person to whom, and any period of time during which, the firearm will be loaned to the person.” New buyers would have to report that information on the date of purchase. Failure to comply would be punishable by a minimum fine of $75,000, a minimum prison sentence of 15 years, or both.
    Licenses would be limited to people 21 or older who pass a criminal background check, undergo a “psychological examination,” complete at least 24 hours of training and pay an $800 “fee” for liability insurance. The examination, which may include assessing “other members of the household in which the individual resides,” would be conducted by a government-approved psychologist charged with determining whether the applicant is “psychologically unsuited to possess a firearm.”
    The psychologist would be required to interview “any spouse of the individual, any former spouse of the individual, and at least 2 other persons who are a member of the family of, or an associate of, the individual to further determine the state of the mental, emotional, and relational stability of the individual in relation to firearms.” Denial of a license would be mandatory if the applicant has ever been “hospitalized” because of “conduct that endangers self or others,” a “brain disease” such as “dementia or Alzheimer’s,” or a “mental illness, disturbance, or diagnosis,” including (but not necessarily limited to) depression, homicidal ideation, suicidal ideation, attempted suicide, and addiction to a controlled substance or alcohol.”
    This Draconian Bill Would Turn Millions of Peaceful Gun Owners Into Felons: Sheila Jackson Lee’s sweeping licensing and registration scheme suggests what Democrats would do if they didn’t have to worry about the Second Amendment.

  435. This Draconian Bill Would Turn Millions of Peaceful Gun Owners Into Felons:
    no it wouldn’t.
    it would turn people who broke that law into felons. owning a gun would still be legal.
    leave it to ‘conservatives’ to argue for the right of Alzheimer’s victims to own guns.

  436. This Draconian Bill Would Turn Millions of Peaceful Gun Owners Into Felons:
    no it wouldn’t.
    it would turn people who broke that law into felons. owning a gun would still be legal.
    leave it to ‘conservatives’ to argue for the right of Alzheimer’s victims to own guns.

  437. Sheila Jackson Lee’s sweeping licensing and registration scheme suggests what Democrats would do if they didn’t have to worry about the Second Amendment.
    Umm…no.
    If you want an idea of what Democrats would do without the Second Amendment, then we have Canada, Australia, and Sweden to look at.
    And if you want to know what Democrats would do with the Second Amendment to worry about, start from any of those three and then water them down some more.
    And least it’s good to see that Reason noticed it had surpassed its daily quota for articles with “Orwellian” in the title and had to go with “Draconian” to break things up a bit.

  438. Sheila Jackson Lee’s sweeping licensing and registration scheme suggests what Democrats would do if they didn’t have to worry about the Second Amendment.
    Umm…no.
    If you want an idea of what Democrats would do without the Second Amendment, then we have Canada, Australia, and Sweden to look at.
    And if you want to know what Democrats would do with the Second Amendment to worry about, start from any of those three and then water them down some more.
    And least it’s good to see that Reason noticed it had surpassed its daily quota for articles with “Orwellian” in the title and had to go with “Draconian” to break things up a bit.

  441. Lou Dobbs canned, Fox maybe worried about the lawsuits. I am fortunate that I never had to interact with him in the olden days when we were “co-workers” (don’t know if he ever deigned to visit Atlanta, maybe an event or two with Ted?). By all reports he was a raging abusive prima donna, which should come as no surprise given his on camera demeanor.

  442. Lou Dobbs canned, Fox maybe worried about the lawsuits. I am fortunate that I never had to interact with him in the olden days when we were “co-workers” (don’t know if he ever deigned to visit Atlanta, maybe an event or two with Ted?). By all reports he was a raging abusive prima donna, which should come as no surprise given his on camera demeanor.

  445. Thanks for the link to the committee membership. I was surprised to see just how unworkably large the committee is – about 50 members.
    Do these committees do anything of substance, or is membership just a thing to boast about to one’s constituents?

  446. Thanks for the link to the committee membership. I was surprised to see just how unworkably large the committee is – about 50 members.
    Do these committees do anything of substance, or is membership just a thing to boast about to one’s constituents?

  447. “Do these committees do anything of substance, or is membership just a thing to boast about to one’s constituents?”
    Only if “constituents” == “donors” for boasting purposes.
    Voters? Nah.

  448. “Do these committees do anything of substance, or is membership just a thing to boast about to one’s constituents?”
    Only if “constituents” == “donors” for boasting purposes.
    Voters? Nah.

  449. Yes, I found that link to the committee membership interesting too. Apart from being awfully large, there seemed no shortage (at least on the D side) of women who might well be wives and mothers, and plenty of white people too (on the R side, almost all white men, surprise surprise). Couldn’t be sure without checking what their various religions were, but it did seem to point out (at least to those who aren’t squarely in the cult already) the absurdity of MTG’s claim.

  450. Yes, I found that link to the committee membership interesting too. Apart from being awfully large, there seemed no shortage (at least on the D side) of women who might well be wives and mothers, and plenty of white people too (on the R side, almost all white men, surprise surprise). Couldn’t be sure without checking what their various religions were, but it did seem to point out (at least to those who aren’t squarely in the cult already) the absurdity of MTG’s claim.

  451. Do these committees do anything of substance, or is membership just a thing to boast about to one’s constituents?
    For those big committees, I suspect the real work mostly happens in sub-committees. (Actually, most of the real real work is done by staff members in even smaller groups.)
    The purpose of the big committee is primarily to pass proposals to the appropriate subcommittee. And give an opportunity to tweak subcommittee-generated bills before they go to the full House/Senate.

  452. Do these committees do anything of substance, or is membership just a thing to boast about to one’s constituents?
    For those big committees, I suspect the real work mostly happens in sub-committees. (Actually, most of the real real work is done by staff members in even smaller groups.)
    The purpose of the big committee is primarily to pass proposals to the appropriate subcommittee. And give an opportunity to tweak subcommittee-generated bills before they go to the full House/Senate.

  453. Since it’s openish…
    Larimer County, CO where I now live moved from orange to yellow on one of the state’s scales and red to yellow on the other (less finely graduated) one. As of tomorrow, my wife and I are eligible for vaccination. With any luck, we’ll make it by the first week of March. I am so looking forward to March, when there will be at least intermittent days nice enough to strap on the bicycle. Circumstances surrounding the move to Larimer County kept me off the bike for much of the usual season last year. I have to remember to ask my daughter if I can borrow one or both of the granddaughters for bicycling this summer. The days are now enough longer that I’m willing to argue with software. This week I think I will convince the Nest thermostat to be not quite so smart, and to give Alexa control so my wife can simply say, “Alexa, make it two degrees warmer,” without worrying about the demented rotate and click user interface.

  454. Since it’s openish…
    Larimer County, CO where I now live moved from orange to yellow on one of the state’s scales and red to yellow on the other (less finely graduated) one. As of tomorrow, my wife and I are eligible for vaccination. With any luck, we’ll make it by the first week of March. I am so looking forward to March, when there will be at least intermittent days nice enough to strap on the bicycle. Circumstances surrounding the move to Larimer County kept me off the bike for much of the usual season last year. I have to remember to ask my daughter if I can borrow one or both of the granddaughters for bicycling this summer. The days are now enough longer that I’m willing to argue with software. This week I think I will convince the Nest thermostat to be not quite so smart, and to give Alexa control so my wife can simply say, “Alexa, make it two degrees warmer,” without worrying about the demented rotate and click user interface.

  457. This (from the NHS) is for all you lovers of British humour and our ability to laugh at ourselves, who may also be admiring the (so far only) good job the UK is doing, with the vaccination program (you have to watch til the end, only one and a half minutes):
    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1359401937268006912
    It just so happens I have never been a huge fan of Elton John’s music, but I have enormous respect for him ever since he incredibly bravely (against the advice of all his rich, celeb friends, including Mick Jagger) went after Rupert Murdoch’s The Sun, challenging them on a salacious story and enduring endless horrible weeks and months of them digging dirt, upping the ante, smearing and trying to destroy him, and he just kept slapping injunctions on them, and suing and suing, until they had to back down, issue a grovelling front-page apology, and pay him (if I remember correctly) a million pounds. It showed tremendous guts, and moral fibre. And against exactly the right kind of opponent too. I’ll never forget it.

  458. This (from the NHS) is for all you lovers of British humour and our ability to laugh at ourselves, who may also be admiring the (so far only) good job the UK is doing, with the vaccination program (you have to watch til the end, only one and a half minutes):
    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1359401937268006912
    It just so happens I have never been a huge fan of Elton John’s music, but I have enormous respect for him ever since he incredibly bravely (against the advice of all his rich, celeb friends, including Mick Jagger) went after Rupert Murdoch’s The Sun, challenging them on a salacious story and enduring endless horrible weeks and months of them digging dirt, upping the ante, smearing and trying to destroy him, and he just kept slapping injunctions on them, and suing and suing, until they had to back down, issue a grovelling front-page apology, and pay him (if I remember correctly) a million pounds. It showed tremendous guts, and moral fibre. And against exactly the right kind of opponent too. I’ll never forget it.

  459. hah. that’s great. good for him.
    i do like most of his hits. haven’t been able to get into the rest. lot of bands like that.
    here’s a great example of Scottish humour i just found:
    The Trunk Road Gritter Tracker – where you can track all of Scotland’s road sand/sand trucks (gritters), and see their awesome names!
    Sled Zeppelin!
    On Her Majesty’s Slippy Surface!
    Sweet Child O Brine!
    Mary Queen Of Salt!

  460. hah. that’s great. good for him.
    i do like most of his hits. haven’t been able to get into the rest. lot of bands like that.
    here’s a great example of Scottish humour i just found:
    The Trunk Road Gritter Tracker – where you can track all of Scotland’s road sand/sand trucks (gritters), and see their awesome names!
    Sled Zeppelin!
    On Her Majesty’s Slippy Surface!
    Sweet Child O Brine!
    Mary Queen Of Salt!

  461. Also:
    David Plowie.
    Nicole Saltslinger.
    Basil Salty.
    Roger Spreaderer.
    William Wilberfrost.

  462. Also:
    David Plowie.
    Nicole Saltslinger.
    Basil Salty.
    Roger Spreaderer.
    William Wilberfrost.

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