by liberal japonicus
Since it seems that the Carter Page foolishness has been banished, at least for a short period of time, we might want a new post and perhaps this link with all the executive orders signed by Biden might do the trick. The CNN list explains if the order is a reversal or not, the NYTimes has background on 17 of them.
I’m sure the usual suspects will want to explain how they embody Marxist principles, or impinge on fundamental rights or are just a way of getting Hunter’s beak wet, however given previous recent discussion, you may not want to push that envelope too much. Allons-y!!
I have no doubt that there will be a return to “Executive orders are TYRANNY!1!!” in short order.
I have no doubt that there will be a return to “Executive orders are TYRANNY!1!!” in short order.
this is the current headline at Breitbart:
(no link, you can figure it out if you really want)
this is the current headline at Breitbart:
(no link, you can figure it out if you really want)
Yup. As well as the “The deficit! O noes! (h/t cleek) Irresponsible financially illiterate Dems!”
Yup. As well as the “The deficit! O noes! (h/t cleek) Irresponsible financially illiterate Dems!”
As well as the “The deficit! O noes! (h/t cleek) Irresponsible financially illiterate Dems!”
Like this?
https://theweek.com/articles/962983/democrats-are-getting-chuck-grassleyed
As well as the “The deficit! O noes! (h/t cleek) Irresponsible financially illiterate Dems!”
Like this?
https://theweek.com/articles/962983/democrats-are-getting-chuck-grassleyed
ROLEX!!!
tan suit is on deck.
also – FWIW I don’t have a problem with people calling out the FBI when it colors outside the lines. I’m just not interested in “nullifying the election” crap.
If you want to see what “nullifying the election” looks like, look at Trump’s actions, more or less daily, since November.
And I’m not interested in debating that crap either, just offering it as an actual example of attempted election nullification. In case anyone actually needs some clarity on what the freaking words mean.
I continue to see Biden as a stroke of luck. Whether you agree with him on policy or not.
Cometh the hour, etc.
in any case, let the great debates about watch brands and gym equipment proceed!!
ROLEX!!!
tan suit is on deck.
also – FWIW I don’t have a problem with people calling out the FBI when it colors outside the lines. I’m just not interested in “nullifying the election” crap.
If you want to see what “nullifying the election” looks like, look at Trump’s actions, more or less daily, since November.
And I’m not interested in debating that crap either, just offering it as an actual example of attempted election nullification. In case anyone actually needs some clarity on what the freaking words mean.
I continue to see Biden as a stroke of luck. Whether you agree with him on policy or not.
Cometh the hour, etc.
in any case, let the great debates about watch brands and gym equipment proceed!!
“Every dollar that we’re talking about here is being borrowed from our grandchildren. We have a responsibility to be stewards.”
Yeah. It’s not like where the money is going and under what circumstances matters. Every dollar is just a dollar, like all the others, and there are no second-, third-, fourth-order (and so on, especially if we’re talking about grandchildren) effects that depend on what actual resources are put into play and for what purposes.
I’m sure our grandchildren will appreciate it if we let this immediate crisis take its course and destroy lives, assets, and businesses for good. That’ll help!
“Every dollar that we’re talking about here is being borrowed from our grandchildren. We have a responsibility to be stewards.”
Yeah. It’s not like where the money is going and under what circumstances matters. Every dollar is just a dollar, like all the others, and there are no second-, third-, fourth-order (and so on, especially if we’re talking about grandchildren) effects that depend on what actual resources are put into play and for what purposes.
I’m sure our grandchildren will appreciate it if we let this immediate crisis take its course and destroy lives, assets, and businesses for good. That’ll help!
hsh –
I don’t remember their voicing that pious concern any time between Jan 21 2017 and Jan 21 2021.
I certainly somehow missed their voicing that pious concern when they passed a $2T tax cut.
Wonder why.
hsh –
I don’t remember their voicing that pious concern any time between Jan 21 2017 and Jan 21 2021.
I certainly somehow missed their voicing that pious concern when they passed a $2T tax cut.
Wonder why.
“Strengthens Buy American rules by closing loopholes and reducing waivers granted on federal purchases of domestic goods”
This is better than Trump’s trade war. But the government should be trying to get the biggest bang for the taxpayers’ buck. Not favoring vendors just because they’re domestic.
“Restores collective bargaining power and worker protections for federal workers, and lays the foundation for $15 minimum wage“
So, are the businesses that have survived the pandemic, but are hanging by their nails, being told that their expenses are going to be artificially raised?
“Directs the Department of Education and HHS to provide guidance for safely reopening and operating schools, childcare providers and institutions of higher education”
Just open the K-12 schools FCS! Keeping the schools closed is doing more harm than good.
“Rejoins the Paris climate accord, a process that will take 30 days”
Resume the climate change response theater.
“Cancels the Keystone XL pipeline and directs agencies to review and reverse more than 100 Trump actions on the environment”
Virtue signaling that “we really hate those bad old fossil fuels”?
“Strengthens Buy American rules by closing loopholes and reducing waivers granted on federal purchases of domestic goods”
This is better than Trump’s trade war. But the government should be trying to get the biggest bang for the taxpayers’ buck. Not favoring vendors just because they’re domestic.
“Restores collective bargaining power and worker protections for federal workers, and lays the foundation for $15 minimum wage“
So, are the businesses that have survived the pandemic, but are hanging by their nails, being told that their expenses are going to be artificially raised?
“Directs the Department of Education and HHS to provide guidance for safely reopening and operating schools, childcare providers and institutions of higher education”
Just open the K-12 schools FCS! Keeping the schools closed is doing more harm than good.
“Rejoins the Paris climate accord, a process that will take 30 days”
Resume the climate change response theater.
“Cancels the Keystone XL pipeline and directs agencies to review and reverse more than 100 Trump actions on the environment”
Virtue signaling that “we really hate those bad old fossil fuels”?
Just open the K-12 schools FCS! Keeping the schools closed is doing more harm than good.
Get those teachers vaccinated, then sure.
Just open the K-12 schools FCS! Keeping the schools closed is doing more harm than good.
Get those teachers vaccinated, then sure.
Amazing what short memories some Senators have.
https://mobile.twitter.com/clairecmc/status/1353904001197207553
Zing!
Amazing what short memories some Senators have.
https://mobile.twitter.com/clairecmc/status/1353904001197207553
Zing!
But the government should be trying to get the biggest bang for the taxpayers’ buck. Not favoring vendors just because they’re domestic.
taxpayers having jobs seems like a bigger bang than taxpayers not having jobs.
But the government should be trying to get the biggest bang for the taxpayers’ buck. Not favoring vendors just because they’re domestic.
taxpayers having jobs seems like a bigger bang than taxpayers not having jobs.
Get those teachers vaccinated, then sure.
Some unions are holding out against teaching in person even after their members have been vaccinated.
Get those teachers vaccinated, then sure.
Some unions are holding out against teaching in person even after their members have been vaccinated.
Some unions are holding out against teaching in person even after their members have been vaccinated.
Which says nothing about the validity of wj’s suggestion.
Some unions are holding out against teaching in person even after their members have been vaccinated.
Which says nothing about the validity of wj’s suggestion.
So, are the businesses that have survived the pandemic, but are hanging by their nails, being told that their expenses are going to be artificially raised?
Expenses are artificial. They are a human creation, not something coming from nature. Should struggling workers be told that their incomes will continue to be artificially suppressed? Or will businesses be told that their customers will artificially have more money to spend?
So, are the businesses that have survived the pandemic, but are hanging by their nails, being told that their expenses are going to be artificially raised?
Expenses are artificial. They are a human creation, not something coming from nature. Should struggling workers be told that their incomes will continue to be artificially suppressed? Or will businesses be told that their customers will artificially have more money to spend?
An interesting (to this non-lawyer) suggestion for the Senate impeachment trial.
Stipulations are not particularly unusual in trials. And it would force Republican Senators to go on record about what did, in fact, happen. And go on record for or against that specific action.
An interesting (to this non-lawyer) suggestion for the Senate impeachment trial.
Stipulations are not particularly unusual in trials. And it would force Republican Senators to go on record about what did, in fact, happen. And go on record for or against that specific action.
Some unions are holding out against teaching in person even after their members have been vaccinated.
Yes. The teacher’s family may not be vaccinated. The teacher’s household may include at-risk people.
The students may not be vaccinated. The students’ households may include at-risk people.
Teacher unions are very aware that we are not just bargaining for our own safety. Our teaching conditions are also the safety conditions for everyone in our bubbles.
Some unions are holding out against teaching in person even after their members have been vaccinated.
Yes. The teacher’s family may not be vaccinated. The teacher’s household may include at-risk people.
The students may not be vaccinated. The students’ households may include at-risk people.
Teacher unions are very aware that we are not just bargaining for our own safety. Our teaching conditions are also the safety conditions for everyone in our bubbles.
University level risks are a bit greater than in K-12.
Some K-12 unions are relenting a bit as they see their market share shrinking.
University level risks are a bit greater than in K-12.
Some K-12 unions are relenting a bit as they see their market share shrinking.
“Every dollar that we’re talking about here is being borrowed from our grandchildren.”
This is economic illiteracy. These ignorant f*cks are in charge of making public policy? I shudder at the thought.
Look (to coin a phrase), for every grandchild paying off these bonds there are other grandchilds who are getting the dough, and heaven portend, that same granchild paying off those treasuries may also be a holder of those instruments.
Susan Collins and Angus King are idiots.
And what hsh said.
“Every dollar that we’re talking about here is being borrowed from our grandchildren.”
This is economic illiteracy. These ignorant f*cks are in charge of making public policy? I shudder at the thought.
Look (to coin a phrase), for every grandchild paying off these bonds there are other grandchilds who are getting the dough, and heaven portend, that same granchild paying off those treasuries may also be a holder of those instruments.
Susan Collins and Angus King are idiots.
And what hsh said.
further….I sure wish somebody would loan me a couple billion dollars at negative interest rates to be paid off over 30 years.
JFC…what idiots.
further….I sure wish somebody would loan me a couple billion dollars at negative interest rates to be paid off over 30 years.
JFC…what idiots.
…to clarify negative real interest rates.
…to clarify negative real interest rates.
Every dollar that we’re talking about here is being borrowed from our grandchildren.
There’s always the option of paying for it now. It’s called ‘revenue’, most likely in the form of ‘taxes’.
But the government should be trying to get the biggest bang for the taxpayers’ buck.
cleek beat me to it, but ‘bang for the buck’ really ought to include some consideration of the total effect of the money being spent.
Every dollar that we’re talking about here is being borrowed from our grandchildren.
There’s always the option of paying for it now. It’s called ‘revenue’, most likely in the form of ‘taxes’.
But the government should be trying to get the biggest bang for the taxpayers’ buck.
cleek beat me to it, but ‘bang for the buck’ really ought to include some consideration of the total effect of the money being spent.
Schools are relatively low-risk if appropriate precautions are taken.
Schools are relatively low-risk if appropriate precautions are taken.
just, ya know, FYI:
Congressional Republicans are so afraid of the GOP cult that they’re willing to ignore the threat the cult made on their own lives if it means avoid angering the cult any further.
just, ya know, FYI:
Congressional Republicans are so afraid of the GOP cult that they’re willing to ignore the threat the cult made on their own lives if it means avoid angering the cult any further.
Let’s hope that vaccine production expands significantly without new obstacles or setbacks or else it will be the end of the school year before all the teachers can be vaccinated in the first place.
That’s the first systempunkt that could render the others moot.
Let’s hope that vaccine production expands significantly without new obstacles or setbacks or else it will be the end of the school year before all the teachers can be vaccinated in the first place.
That’s the first systempunkt that could render the others moot.
Teachers need to be vaccinated, and teachers’ unions are fully justified in insisting that teachers (and other school workers) be allowed to stay home (teaching online or whatever) until that happens. After that happens? No – we can’t wait until every person’s bubble is vaccinated.
Teachers need to be vaccinated, and teachers’ unions are fully justified in insisting that teachers (and other school workers) be allowed to stay home (teaching online or whatever) until that happens. After that happens? No – we can’t wait until every person’s bubble is vaccinated.
Susan Collins not a week ago guessed her conservative constituency coming to disembowel and hang her were swarthy Muslim terrorists.
She was the only person, after McTX, to get the news regarding who was trying to kill who.
“Some K-12 unions are relenting a bit as they see their market share shrinking.”
Funny thing about this midsummer’s nights dream called America that viral loads and market share run inversely.
What fucking dogshit.
Susan Collins not a week ago guessed her conservative constituency coming to disembowel and hang her were swarthy Muslim terrorists.
She was the only person, after McTX, to get the news regarding who was trying to kill who.
“Some K-12 unions are relenting a bit as they see their market share shrinking.”
Funny thing about this midsummer’s nights dream called America that viral loads and market share run inversely.
What fucking dogshit.
After that happens?
Important to be clear about what ‘that’ means. It could mean
-a vaccine is created
-a vaccine is distributed (to whom though)
-the ability to get vaccinated is organized
-the vaccination is in a person’s arms
-sufficient vaccinations are in everyone’s arms
I’m not precisely sure which one you mean, but I assign enough good faith to you to imagine that we could come to a reasonable understanding of ‘that’. With others, not so much.
But that ‘that’ is going to be imperfect and if someone stands on making the perfect the enemy of the good, it won’t be pretty.
It’s unfortunate, if schools and teachers were better funded and had more autonomy, this might be a way to blend models of in person and online learning. A proportion of the teachers teaching online, students using the school to make up for IT infrastructure that they may lack at home (and providing working parents a place to take care of their kids), a system for making it possible for kids in special circumstances (becoming part of a cluster for example, or immuno compromised) to move to online from in-person and back. Unfortunately, most conceptions of curricula and teaching (as well as the idea that education is licensing) are too rigid to manage that.
After that happens?
Important to be clear about what ‘that’ means. It could mean
-a vaccine is created
-a vaccine is distributed (to whom though)
-the ability to get vaccinated is organized
-the vaccination is in a person’s arms
-sufficient vaccinations are in everyone’s arms
I’m not precisely sure which one you mean, but I assign enough good faith to you to imagine that we could come to a reasonable understanding of ‘that’. With others, not so much.
But that ‘that’ is going to be imperfect and if someone stands on making the perfect the enemy of the good, it won’t be pretty.
It’s unfortunate, if schools and teachers were better funded and had more autonomy, this might be a way to blend models of in person and online learning. A proportion of the teachers teaching online, students using the school to make up for IT infrastructure that they may lack at home (and providing working parents a place to take care of their kids), a system for making it possible for kids in special circumstances (becoming part of a cluster for example, or immuno compromised) to move to online from in-person and back. Unfortunately, most conceptions of curricula and teaching (as well as the idea that education is licensing) are too rigid to manage that.
Teachers need to be vaccinated, and teachers’ unions are fully justified in insisting that teachers (and other school workers) be allowed to stay home (teaching online or whatever) until that happens. After that happens? No – we can’t wait until every person’s bubble is vaccinated.
I’m willing to force that discussion because it is a discussion worth having to force a measure of realism into the otherwise faith-based arguments about “opening the economy.” Sure, mandate that teachers return, but you don’t get to hide the details of what you are asking of them and that record of what is being asked should become part of the context for discussions of what fair compensation looks like for an essential worker.
Teachers need to be vaccinated, and teachers’ unions are fully justified in insisting that teachers (and other school workers) be allowed to stay home (teaching online or whatever) until that happens. After that happens? No – we can’t wait until every person’s bubble is vaccinated.
I’m willing to force that discussion because it is a discussion worth having to force a measure of realism into the otherwise faith-based arguments about “opening the economy.” Sure, mandate that teachers return, but you don’t get to hide the details of what you are asking of them and that record of what is being asked should become part of the context for discussions of what fair compensation looks like for an essential worker.
I’m still trying to get my head around ‘schoolteachers’ and ‘market share’.
I’m still trying to get my head around ‘schoolteachers’ and ‘market share’.
I’m still trying to get my head around ‘schoolteachers’ and ‘market share’.
IKR? (Dare I say “LOL”? Or even WTF?”)
I’m still trying to get my head around ‘schoolteachers’ and ‘market share’.
IKR? (Dare I say “LOL”? Or even WTF?”)
Teachers and minimum wage workers should say adios to kissing our market enslaving butts and put a little sugar on sure thing American bullshit, organic, non-artificial capitalism, where up is up, down is up, and shut up.
https://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/quickchart/quickchart.asp?symb=GME&insttype=Stock
Teachers and minimum wage workers should say adios to kissing our market enslaving butts and put a little sugar on sure thing American bullshit, organic, non-artificial capitalism, where up is up, down is up, and shut up.
https://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/quickchart/quickchart.asp?symb=GME&insttype=Stock
Perhaps I should have put “market share” in quotes. But in some school districts where enrollment in the public schools is down as much as 5% or more, unions are more amendable to getting back to in-person teaching.
Perhaps I should have put “market share” in quotes. But in some school districts where enrollment in the public schools is down as much as 5% or more, unions are more amendable to getting back to in-person teaching.
“I’m still trying to get my head around ‘schoolteachers’ and ‘market share’.”
When libertarians skip class, it’s a market mechanism.
“I’m still trying to get my head around ‘schoolteachers’ and ‘market share’.”
When libertarians skip class, it’s a market mechanism.
I’m willing to force that discussion because it is a discussion worth having to force a measure of realism into the otherwise faith-based arguments about “opening the economy.”
I’m all in on that, too. But I fear you will get just about as far as we do on that other age old question about “balanced budgets” and “lower taxes”.
“Foresooth, sir, pray tell us which government programs are to be cut, and by how much to bring about this budget balance after we cut taxes?”
“Eliminate fraud, waste, and abuse” is the standard reply.
Other than that-crickets.
I’m willing to force that discussion because it is a discussion worth having to force a measure of realism into the otherwise faith-based arguments about “opening the economy.”
I’m all in on that, too. But I fear you will get just about as far as we do on that other age old question about “balanced budgets” and “lower taxes”.
“Foresooth, sir, pray tell us which government programs are to be cut, and by how much to bring about this budget balance after we cut taxes?”
“Eliminate fraud, waste, and abuse” is the standard reply.
Other than that-crickets.
I’m willing to force that discussion because it is a discussion worth having to force a measure of realism into the otherwise faith-based arguments about “opening the economy.”
Not sure what discussion we’re having about faith-based arguments. There’s a horrible disease out there. It’s causing many, many people to die. It’s also causing huge economic upheaval and depravation. I’d be cool with taxing billionaires to help fix it, and I hope that happens. In the meantime, kids need to learn stuff, and they need to get away from their beloved nuclear families, some of whom aren’t doing so well being all together all of the time.
The people who are suffering aren’t the evil perpetrators.
I’m willing to force that discussion because it is a discussion worth having to force a measure of realism into the otherwise faith-based arguments about “opening the economy.”
Not sure what discussion we’re having about faith-based arguments. There’s a horrible disease out there. It’s causing many, many people to die. It’s also causing huge economic upheaval and depravation. I’d be cool with taxing billionaires to help fix it, and I hope that happens. In the meantime, kids need to learn stuff, and they need to get away from their beloved nuclear families, some of whom aren’t doing so well being all together all of the time.
The people who are suffering aren’t the evil perpetrators.
deprivation
Anyway, let’s actually have the discussion about who is losing what.
deprivation
Anyway, let’s actually have the discussion about who is losing what.
But in some school districts where enrollment in the public schools is down as much as 5% or more, unions are more amendable to getting back to in-person teaching.
Care to put some meat on that bone with a link, because (as someone who has sat in on a lot of COVID effects bargaining sessions) that sounds to me like some typical libertarian vanity framing.
Not sure what discussion we’re having about faith-based arguments.
I’m talking about the people whose entire arguments start from the assumption that schools must reopen at whatever cost because that will save the economy. It’s not an argument that you have been making, but it is the argument being made by all of the people showing up to protest public mask mandates.
And also, let’s circle back to…
“Teachers need to be vaccinated, and teachers’ unions are fully justified in insisting that teachers (and other school workers) be allowed to stay home (teaching online or whatever) until that happens. After that happens? No – we can’t wait until every person’s bubble is vaccinated.”
…next time there is a discussion here about why it might be that the Democratic Part is losing the support of their traditional labor contingent.
But in some school districts where enrollment in the public schools is down as much as 5% or more, unions are more amendable to getting back to in-person teaching.
Care to put some meat on that bone with a link, because (as someone who has sat in on a lot of COVID effects bargaining sessions) that sounds to me like some typical libertarian vanity framing.
Not sure what discussion we’re having about faith-based arguments.
I’m talking about the people whose entire arguments start from the assumption that schools must reopen at whatever cost because that will save the economy. It’s not an argument that you have been making, but it is the argument being made by all of the people showing up to protest public mask mandates.
And also, let’s circle back to…
“Teachers need to be vaccinated, and teachers’ unions are fully justified in insisting that teachers (and other school workers) be allowed to stay home (teaching online or whatever) until that happens. After that happens? No – we can’t wait until every person’s bubble is vaccinated.”
…next time there is a discussion here about why it might be that the Democratic Part is losing the support of their traditional labor contingent.
…and teachers, more than most others, are fully aware of the problems with unmonitored abuse. That is absolutely part of the unions’ considerations when they go over these issues. Teacher’s unions, as I have said before, have no equivalent of the “Thin Blue Line” mentality.
Signed – a “responsible reporter”
…and teachers, more than most others, are fully aware of the problems with unmonitored abuse. That is absolutely part of the unions’ considerations when they go over these issues. Teacher’s unions, as I have said before, have no equivalent of the “Thin Blue Line” mentality.
Signed – a “responsible reporter”
…next time there is a discussion here about why it might be that the Democratic Part is losing the support of their traditional labor contingent.
It’s actually why people like me, who should be pro-labor unions, sometimes have misgivings. I am fully on board with paying teachers well. I vote for people who support that in my jurisdiction.
I have a friend with liver cancer here in VA who would love to have a vaccination, but other people come first. That’s fine – he’s patient, and can remain on lockdown (possibly for his remaining days). It’s a privilege to be first in line for a vaccine. That’s a good thing for teachers, if that’s what’s on offer, right?
…next time there is a discussion here about why it might be that the Democratic Part is losing the support of their traditional labor contingent.
It’s actually why people like me, who should be pro-labor unions, sometimes have misgivings. I am fully on board with paying teachers well. I vote for people who support that in my jurisdiction.
I have a friend with liver cancer here in VA who would love to have a vaccination, but other people come first. That’s fine – he’s patient, and can remain on lockdown (possibly for his remaining days). It’s a privilege to be first in line for a vaccine. That’s a good thing for teachers, if that’s what’s on offer, right?
Remember, a 5% decline in enrollment in “gummint” schools to a libertarian/ conservative is a disappointing milestone in their desires to disappear the “public” in schooling and geld public sector unions.
It’s like the great white shark in “Jaws” showing up at a city council meeting on “Amity Island” and concern trolling the shut-down of beaches because of blood in the water.
Remember, a 5% decline in enrollment in “gummint” schools to a libertarian/ conservative is a disappointing milestone in their desires to disappear the “public” in schooling and geld public sector unions.
It’s like the great white shark in “Jaws” showing up at a city council meeting on “Amity Island” and concern trolling the shut-down of beaches because of blood in the water.
Remember, a 5% decline in enrollment in “gummint” schools to a libertarian/ conservative is a disappointing milestone in their desires to disappear the “public” in schooling and geld public sector unions.
There certainly are those people, but let’s talk about what is being asked here of people who support public education, and hoping that their kids can return to school – especially the many, many people who rely on their kids going to school to be able to do their own sucky jobs.
Remember, a 5% decline in enrollment in “gummint” schools to a libertarian/ conservative is a disappointing milestone in their desires to disappear the “public” in schooling and geld public sector unions.
There certainly are those people, but let’s talk about what is being asked here of people who support public education, and hoping that their kids can return to school – especially the many, many people who rely on their kids going to school to be able to do their own sucky jobs.
Both my wife and I teach at a university and both of us would like to have a vaccine sooner, rather than later. But we are also concerned about people who are more at risk than we are, like your friend, and are willing to continue remote teaching despite it being a greater burden on us than being in the classroom and not as effective for our students because it is effective enough and it is temporary.
I’m not on board for any discussion of how to get the economy open again that does not address fair compensation for essential workers. This goes double for me having a front row seat observing all of the disaster capitalism that schools and institutions are engaging in trying to leverage people’s desperation into long-term concessions over teaching conditions.
This is about more than just going back to the classroom.
Both my wife and I teach at a university and both of us would like to have a vaccine sooner, rather than later. But we are also concerned about people who are more at risk than we are, like your friend, and are willing to continue remote teaching despite it being a greater burden on us than being in the classroom and not as effective for our students because it is effective enough and it is temporary.
I’m not on board for any discussion of how to get the economy open again that does not address fair compensation for essential workers. This goes double for me having a front row seat observing all of the disaster capitalism that schools and institutions are engaging in trying to leverage people’s desperation into long-term concessions over teaching conditions.
This is about more than just going back to the classroom.
The moment of crisis is always the moment when concession is demanded of labor, but no concessions are reciprocally made. And the ground that is conceded is never regained.
The moment of crisis is always the moment when concession is demanded of labor, but no concessions are reciprocally made. And the ground that is conceded is never regained.
I’m not on board for any discussion of how to get the economy open again that does not address fair compensation for essential workers.
But you’re not even talking about what that is. I’m hugely in favor of taking money from billionaires to pay essential workers. That’s great. That’s not going to get done in the short term – even if we hold poor, needy, desperate in other ways, good people hostage for demands that you aren’t even articulating.
I’m not on board for any discussion of how to get the economy open again that does not address fair compensation for essential workers.
But you’re not even talking about what that is. I’m hugely in favor of taking money from billionaires to pay essential workers. That’s great. That’s not going to get done in the short term – even if we hold poor, needy, desperate in other ways, good people hostage for demands that you aren’t even articulating.
What you did articulate, nous, is that every teacher and his/her bubble needs to be safe before people go back to work. Or did I misunderstand?
What you did articulate, nous, is that every teacher and his/her bubble needs to be safe before people go back to work. Or did I misunderstand?
The moment of crisis is always the moment when concession is demanded of labor, but no concessions are reciprocally made.
This may be true in the particular, but not in the general crisis that is happening now.
The moment of crisis is always the moment when concession is demanded of labor, but no concessions are reciprocally made.
This may be true in the particular, but not in the general crisis that is happening now.
That’s not going to get done in the short term – even if we hold poor, needy, desperate in other ways, good people hostage for demands that you aren’t even articulating.
Says the person who seems not to have any experience with any COVID related bargaining between management and teachers unions, and whose public misgivings erode union leverage.
I’m already up to my eyeballs in both full-time remote teaching and in unpaid union work trying to keep management from hollowing out student educations and turning teachers into gig workers in the name of crisis. I don’t have the bandwidth to do union outreach for sympathetic skeptics who want to be wooed.
That’s not going to get done in the short term – even if we hold poor, needy, desperate in other ways, good people hostage for demands that you aren’t even articulating.
Says the person who seems not to have any experience with any COVID related bargaining between management and teachers unions, and whose public misgivings erode union leverage.
I’m already up to my eyeballs in both full-time remote teaching and in unpaid union work trying to keep management from hollowing out student educations and turning teachers into gig workers in the name of crisis. I don’t have the bandwidth to do union outreach for sympathetic skeptics who want to be wooed.
I’m already up to my eyeballs in both full-time remote teaching and in unpaid union work
In other words, you have a job? Good on you!
I’m already up to my eyeballs in both full-time remote teaching and in unpaid union work
In other words, you have a job? Good on you!
I don’t have the bandwidth to do union outreach for sympathetic skeptics who want to be wooed.
I don’t “want to be wooed”. You’re on a discussion forum where you take a position that all your “bubble” needs a vaccine before you show at work. I disagree.
I don’t have the bandwidth to do union outreach for sympathetic skeptics who want to be wooed.
I don’t “want to be wooed”. You’re on a discussion forum where you take a position that all your “bubble” needs a vaccine before you show at work. I disagree.
And with that, the conversation has once again become the typical sapient scolding.
Your petty bullshit shade has shown me the error of my ways. I stand abashed and contrite.
Truly, I was unaware of these things.
If only my moral horse were so high.
And with that, the conversation has once again become the typical sapient scolding.
Your petty bullshit shade has shown me the error of my ways. I stand abashed and contrite.
Truly, I was unaware of these things.
If only my moral horse were so high.
Maybe, when nous is less swamped, we could have a discussion on the relative merits of unions and civil service protections. Because, to my mind, there are strong arguments for each. But no justification for having both simultaneously.
Maybe, when nous is less swamped, we could have a discussion on the relative merits of unions and civil service protections. Because, to my mind, there are strong arguments for each. But no justification for having both simultaneously.
typical sapient scolding.
I am not scolding at all. You were scolding me with this:
Says the person who seems not to have any experience with any COVID related bargaining between management and teachers unions, and whose public misgivings erode union leverage.
As if we’re a discussion forum of union reps. It’s sad that unions lost their mojo (circa 1975 or so) because I believe in their usefulness. But this discussion is an argument for how it happened, and why it continues.
typical sapient scolding.
I am not scolding at all. You were scolding me with this:
Says the person who seems not to have any experience with any COVID related bargaining between management and teachers unions, and whose public misgivings erode union leverage.
As if we’re a discussion forum of union reps. It’s sad that unions lost their mojo (circa 1975 or so) because I believe in their usefulness. But this discussion is an argument for how it happened, and why it continues.
Care to put some meat on that bone with a link,
I normally don’t make an assertion unless I can back it up if asked. I thought I remembered seeing some examples of unions in school districts that had seen big drops in enrollments being more favorable to returning to in-person teaching. But I can’t find any examples.
The moment of crisis is always the moment when concession is demanded of labor, but no concessions are reciprocally made.
This can work both ways. Some unions are making non-pandemic related concessions from school districts and states a requirement to return to in-person teaching.
Care to put some meat on that bone with a link,
I normally don’t make an assertion unless I can back it up if asked. I thought I remembered seeing some examples of unions in school districts that had seen big drops in enrollments being more favorable to returning to in-person teaching. But I can’t find any examples.
The moment of crisis is always the moment when concession is demanded of labor, but no concessions are reciprocally made.
This can work both ways. Some unions are making non-pandemic related concessions from school districts and states a requirement to return to in-person teaching.
But in some school districts where enrollment in the public schools is down as much as 5% or more, unions are more amendable to getting back to in-person teaching.
Every teacher I know wants to get back in the classroom. Union, non-union, whatever. They are teaching remotely, but they’d rather be in class.
They also don’t want to die, nor do they want to expose kids or people ‘in their bubble’ to the virus.
This is a crappy situation, but other than situations where it is impossible to do your job without being physically present, people should not be required to go to work if it isn’t safe for them or their families for them to do so.
Right? Isn’t that basic common sense?
But in some school districts where enrollment in the public schools is down as much as 5% or more, unions are more amendable to getting back to in-person teaching.
Every teacher I know wants to get back in the classroom. Union, non-union, whatever. They are teaching remotely, but they’d rather be in class.
They also don’t want to die, nor do they want to expose kids or people ‘in their bubble’ to the virus.
This is a crappy situation, but other than situations where it is impossible to do your job without being physically present, people should not be required to go to work if it isn’t safe for them or their families for them to do so.
Right? Isn’t that basic common sense?
unions lost their mojo (circa 1975 or so) because I believe in their usefulness. But this discussion is an argument for how it happened, and why it continues.
As Daffy Duck said to Bugs Bunny ‘ahh, pronoun problems’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyPFQKpRnd0
unions lost their mojo (circa 1975 or so) because I believe in their usefulness. But this discussion is an argument for how it happened, and why it continues.
As Daffy Duck said to Bugs Bunny ‘ahh, pronoun problems’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyPFQKpRnd0
Sure, russell. But what does that actually mean?
They also don’t want to die, nor do they want to expose kids or people ‘in their bubble’ to the virus.
Obviously. To me, that means they get a vaccine. If it’s questionable whether even having a vaccine means that they’re endangering “their bubble”, I’m not sure that means they should still get paid for whatever they decide (maybe with exceptions – whatever).
people should not be required to go to work if it isn’t safe for them or their families for them to do so.
Nobody is required to go to work. We aren’t slaves. If people are prioritized for getting vaccinated so that they can work, and they do get vaccinated, they really should go to work, or quit.
Sure, russell. But what does that actually mean?
They also don’t want to die, nor do they want to expose kids or people ‘in their bubble’ to the virus.
Obviously. To me, that means they get a vaccine. If it’s questionable whether even having a vaccine means that they’re endangering “their bubble”, I’m not sure that means they should still get paid for whatever they decide (maybe with exceptions – whatever).
people should not be required to go to work if it isn’t safe for them or their families for them to do so.
Nobody is required to go to work. We aren’t slaves. If people are prioritized for getting vaccinated so that they can work, and they do get vaccinated, they really should go to work, or quit.
As Daffy Duck said to Bugs Bunny ‘ahh, pronoun problems’
Mea culpa!
As Daffy Duck said to Bugs Bunny ‘ahh, pronoun problems’
Mea culpa!
they really should go to work, or quit.
A lot of people have quit. Teachers, also medical professionals. Probably some other fields.
Some can’t, because even though they aren’t slaves, they may not have a lot of choice for other reasons. Or, they may be dedicated to what they do.
But a lot have quit, and more will do so before all this is over.
And we’ll see how that works out.
they really should go to work, or quit.
A lot of people have quit. Teachers, also medical professionals. Probably some other fields.
Some can’t, because even though they aren’t slaves, they may not have a lot of choice for other reasons. Or, they may be dedicated to what they do.
But a lot have quit, and more will do so before all this is over.
And we’ll see how that works out.
A lot of people have quit.
Are you talking about people who have been offered vaccines, or have been vaccinated? Because that’s who I was talking about.
And we’ll see how that works out.
It will work out badly if good teachers quit. Or maybe a lot of folks who have wanted coveted teaching jobs will be able to teach.
It will work out.
A lot of people have quit.
Are you talking about people who have been offered vaccines, or have been vaccinated? Because that’s who I was talking about.
And we’ll see how that works out.
It will work out badly if good teachers quit. Or maybe a lot of folks who have wanted coveted teaching jobs will be able to teach.
It will work out.
Sapient’s reasoning is described in the lgm post
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2021/01/this-day-in-labor-history-january-25-1915
American elites, going back to before the Civil War, were deeply committed to the idea of liberty of contract. At its essence, this meant that any two people who made an agreement, let’s say for a job, entered into the agreement as autonomous agents who made a legally binding agreement. It did not take long for contract doctrine to be perverted by the nation’s industrial elite in order to repress the rights of workers. The idea that an impoverished worker was on the same legal and moral level as J.P. Morgan is an absolutely absurdity, a mockery of any decent legal standard. But this lasted for many decades. So if an employer wanted to force a worker to sign a yellow-dog contract so that they could not join a union, followers of liberty of contract doctrine would state that said worker could either agree to the conditions or quit. Quit to what was not a question they were concerned with. Poverty, despondence, suicide–these were not worthy of the attention of these elites.
Sapient’s reasoning is described in the lgm post
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2021/01/this-day-in-labor-history-january-25-1915
American elites, going back to before the Civil War, were deeply committed to the idea of liberty of contract. At its essence, this meant that any two people who made an agreement, let’s say for a job, entered into the agreement as autonomous agents who made a legally binding agreement. It did not take long for contract doctrine to be perverted by the nation’s industrial elite in order to repress the rights of workers. The idea that an impoverished worker was on the same legal and moral level as J.P. Morgan is an absolutely absurdity, a mockery of any decent legal standard. But this lasted for many decades. So if an employer wanted to force a worker to sign a yellow-dog contract so that they could not join a union, followers of liberty of contract doctrine would state that said worker could either agree to the conditions or quit. Quit to what was not a question they were concerned with. Poverty, despondence, suicide–these were not worthy of the attention of these elites.
I’m very familiar with the Lochner line of cases that Erik describes. I am totally in favor of collective bargaining and regulatory restrictions on oppressive labor practices.
If I were in the bargaining room, I would say that a prioritized vaccination would be a benefit.
But you can continue to call me names, or nitpick my grammar or whatever. Anything to avoid the issue of determining what is actually fair.
I’m very familiar with the Lochner line of cases that Erik describes. I am totally in favor of collective bargaining and regulatory restrictions on oppressive labor practices.
If I were in the bargaining room, I would say that a prioritized vaccination would be a benefit.
But you can continue to call me names, or nitpick my grammar or whatever. Anything to avoid the issue of determining what is actually fair.
By the way, I love reading LGM, and enjoy Erik Loomis. But he’s not a lawyer, and (IMO) he’s a sketchy historian. I bought one of his books, which I read (sort of skimmed it). His cranky personality is sometimes adorable, and sometimes sickening. He’s hugely judgmental of parents (for somebody who isn’t a parent), and he hates certain foods. So he’s fun to read and be annoyed by, and sometimes he’s right.
I have no problem with his criticism of the Supreme Court’s gilded age view of the “right to work or quit”. There is some bargaining to be had though, collectively.
By the way, I love reading LGM, and enjoy Erik Loomis. But he’s not a lawyer, and (IMO) he’s a sketchy historian. I bought one of his books, which I read (sort of skimmed it). His cranky personality is sometimes adorable, and sometimes sickening. He’s hugely judgmental of parents (for somebody who isn’t a parent), and he hates certain foods. So he’s fun to read and be annoyed by, and sometimes he’s right.
I have no problem with his criticism of the Supreme Court’s gilded age view of the “right to work or quit”. There is some bargaining to be had though, collectively.
Does the vaccine prevent you from transmitting the disease?
To my knowledge, we don’t know the answer to that at this point. Absent that information, it seems irresponsible to require people to be in be in situations where they are in close proximity to other people in an enclosed space. vaccinated or not.
Right?
We’ll all be glad when this is all over. All of us. But it’s not over yet.
It will work out.
Everything always does, one way or other.
Does the vaccine prevent you from transmitting the disease?
To my knowledge, we don’t know the answer to that at this point. Absent that information, it seems irresponsible to require people to be in be in situations where they are in close proximity to other people in an enclosed space. vaccinated or not.
Right?
We’ll all be glad when this is all over. All of us. But it’s not over yet.
It will work out.
Everything always does, one way or other.
It seems obvious that “right to work or quit” is only sensible in an environment where quitting doesn’t mean you (and your family) then starve, or are out living on the street, etc. Set up a Guaranteed Annual Income (for those not blessed with lifetime Supreme Court tenure), and it’s all good. Until or unless that happens, not so much.
P.S. Perhaps my math is off. But it seems to me that the national economy, in total, can afford something like that. Administering it might be challenging. It might have undesirable side effects. But just claiming we can’t afford it is ridiculous.
It seems obvious that “right to work or quit” is only sensible in an environment where quitting doesn’t mean you (and your family) then starve, or are out living on the street, etc. Set up a Guaranteed Annual Income (for those not blessed with lifetime Supreme Court tenure), and it’s all good. Until or unless that happens, not so much.
P.S. Perhaps my math is off. But it seems to me that the national economy, in total, can afford something like that. Administering it might be challenging. It might have undesirable side effects. But just claiming we can’t afford it is ridiculous.
Absent that information, it seems irresponsible to require people to be in be in situations where they are in close proximity to other people in an enclosed space.
I disagree. At a certain point, there is a risk of being exposed to disease – we all have faced it our entire lives. I’m not opposed to mask mandates, or any other protocols, but we can’t totally eliminate risk.
I would not oppose a CDC mandate to do whatever, and if a three month lockdown is mandated, I’ll support it. I’m not opposed to safety. But teachers get vaccines, and don’t want to go to low risk school situations? Nope. Data doesn’t support it, and I’m all about science.
Absent that information, it seems irresponsible to require people to be in be in situations where they are in close proximity to other people in an enclosed space.
I disagree. At a certain point, there is a risk of being exposed to disease – we all have faced it our entire lives. I’m not opposed to mask mandates, or any other protocols, but we can’t totally eliminate risk.
I would not oppose a CDC mandate to do whatever, and if a three month lockdown is mandated, I’ll support it. I’m not opposed to safety. But teachers get vaccines, and don’t want to go to low risk school situations? Nope. Data doesn’t support it, and I’m all about science.
But just claiming we can’t afford it is ridiculous.
Like a broken record I will say: the after-tax household income numbers I got from the CBO some years ago, covering the years from 1979 through 2005, showed (from memory; not digging right now) that you could ask the wealthiest 11,000 housholds (the top 1% of 1%), which had an average annual after-tax income of $24,000,000, to give half of that (and have to struggle by on a mere million a month) to the lowest quintile (25 million households) — and that would raise the latter’s after-tax income by more than a third, or > $5,000 a year per household.
I don’t have more recent numbers. But from 1979 through 2005, that gap had gotten steadily worse. Lord knows what it is now.
And that’s to say nothing of wealth, only income.
So it bears repeating: Just claiming we can’t afford it is ridiculous.
But just claiming we can’t afford it is ridiculous.
Like a broken record I will say: the after-tax household income numbers I got from the CBO some years ago, covering the years from 1979 through 2005, showed (from memory; not digging right now) that you could ask the wealthiest 11,000 housholds (the top 1% of 1%), which had an average annual after-tax income of $24,000,000, to give half of that (and have to struggle by on a mere million a month) to the lowest quintile (25 million households) — and that would raise the latter’s after-tax income by more than a third, or > $5,000 a year per household.
I don’t have more recent numbers. But from 1979 through 2005, that gap had gotten steadily worse. Lord knows what it is now.
And that’s to say nothing of wealth, only income.
So it bears repeating: Just claiming we can’t afford it is ridiculous.
Also, how long are we all supposed to stay home, and where are we going to get something to eat?
People are taking risks. What are y’all paying for groceries? Are you tipping your checkout person? Or how are you doing this?
Also, how long are we all supposed to stay home, and where are we going to get something to eat?
People are taking risks. What are y’all paying for groceries? Are you tipping your checkout person? Or how are you doing this?
wj and JanieM were talking about a UBI?
Erik has been against that, by the way, although maybe there was a recent post where he relented. I have (during the past 10 years) been for it.
Just saying: we all need to be careful who we’re adulating or hating!
wj and JanieM were talking about a UBI?
Erik has been against that, by the way, although maybe there was a recent post where he relented. I have (during the past 10 years) been for it.
Just saying: we all need to be careful who we’re adulating or hating!
I disagree
Then you go do it.
I disagree
Then you go do it.
Then you go do it.
Will do. Just as soon as I am vaccinated, just after my cancer-ridden friends, and 95-year-old relative!
Then you go do it.
Will do. Just as soon as I am vaccinated, just after my cancer-ridden friends, and 95-year-old relative!
Consider your comment bookmarked.
Consider your comment bookmarked.
Consider your comment bookmarked.
Absolutely. I’m out there already doing volunteer work with a mask. For whatever reason, it’s not a horrible idea to go into a classroom, having been vaccinated, with a mask on, teaching kids, where there’s already a hugely low risk of infection.
Not sure what everyone is on about.
Consider your comment bookmarked.
Absolutely. I’m out there already doing volunteer work with a mask. For whatever reason, it’s not a horrible idea to go into a classroom, having been vaccinated, with a mask on, teaching kids, where there’s already a hugely low risk of infection.
Not sure what everyone is on about.
By the way, a friend of mine (a very carful person) recently had a mild stroke, was taken to the hospital where she spent a week or two, then went to rehab for a week, then was sent home. Then she felt bad and discovered she had been sent home with Covid. Her husband is vulnerable for other reasons.
Yeah, she was super careful. Let’s all bookmark each other and blame each other for getting Covid if it happens.
By the way, a friend of mine (a very carful person) recently had a mild stroke, was taken to the hospital where she spent a week or two, then went to rehab for a week, then was sent home. Then she felt bad and discovered she had been sent home with Covid. Her husband is vulnerable for other reasons.
Yeah, she was super careful. Let’s all bookmark each other and blame each other for getting Covid if it happens.
careful. Got it lj.
careful. Got it lj.
we all need to be careful who we’re adulating or hating!
There you go with that “we” again. I am not part of the “we” you’re always giving advice to, and I don’t need your advice about how to form my opinions of Erik Loomis or anyone else. More specifically, I don’t give a flying banana what Erik Loomis thinks about the idea of a UBI, nor, for that matter, did I actually write anything about the UBI. I was simply responding to wj’s comment about the math of what we could afford.
“We all need to be careful” … about going off the rails. Or just going off, period.
we all need to be careful who we’re adulating or hating!
There you go with that “we” again. I am not part of the “we” you’re always giving advice to, and I don’t need your advice about how to form my opinions of Erik Loomis or anyone else. More specifically, I don’t give a flying banana what Erik Loomis thinks about the idea of a UBI, nor, for that matter, did I actually write anything about the UBI. I was simply responding to wj’s comment about the math of what we could afford.
“We all need to be careful” … about going off the rails. Or just going off, period.
I am not part of the “we” you’re always giving advice to, and I don’t need your advice about how to form my opinions of Erik Loomis or anyone else.
Feel free to abstain.
I am not part of the “we” you’re always giving advice to, and I don’t need your advice about how to form my opinions of Erik Loomis or anyone else.
Feel free to abstain.
Oh, excuse me. If I may, will you please feel free? to maybe abstain?
Oh, excuse me. If I may, will you please feel free? to maybe abstain?
Congrats sapient, you’ve earned a 1 week vacation from the blog. Hope you can get lots of stuff done!
Congrats sapient, you’ve earned a 1 week vacation from the blog. Hope you can get lots of stuff done!
So, um, anyone heard any good jokes lately?
So, um, anyone heard any good jokes lately?
my 5-year old niece’s favorite joke right now is:
What do you call a fake noodle?
.
.
.
.
An im-pasta!
my 5-year old niece’s favorite joke right now is:
What do you call a fake noodle?
.
.
.
.
An im-pasta!
Kids that age don’t quite realize that you can’t tell the same people the same joke over and over again. Well … you can, I guess. It just doesn’t have the same effect.
Kids that age don’t quite realize that you can’t tell the same people the same joke over and over again. Well … you can, I guess. It just doesn’t have the same effect.
Dad jokes also, too.
Maybe that’s where the kids learn the technique from.
Dad jokes also, too.
Maybe that’s where the kids learn the technique from.
Unless I’ve lost my ability calibrate from not being around little kids very much these days, “impostor” is a pretty good vocabulary word for a five-year-old.
Unless I’ve lost my ability calibrate from not being around little kids very much these days, “impostor” is a pretty good vocabulary word for a five-year-old.
“Someone tell a joke…”.
“Someone tell a joke…”.
Kids that age don’t quite realize that you can’t tell the same people the same joke over and over again.
…unless the target suffers from certain types of dementia.
OK, that was just cruel.
Kids that age don’t quite realize that you can’t tell the same people the same joke over and over again.
…unless the target suffers from certain types of dementia.
OK, that was just cruel.
“impostor” is a pretty good vocabulary word for a five-year-old.
oh, she’s pretty bright. asked for (and got) a microscope for xmas.
“impostor” is a pretty good vocabulary word for a five-year-old.
oh, she’s pretty bright. asked for (and got) a microscope for xmas.
Unless I’ve lost my ability calibrate from not being around little kids very much these days, “impostor” is a pretty good vocabulary word for a five-year-old.
I blame Among Us. I don’t know if five-year-olds play it, but they at least talk to people who do (or watch their youtube videos).
I know my 8-year-old has been playing it since before he turned 8, and my older kids, up to 17 years old, play it.
Unless I’ve lost my ability calibrate from not being around little kids very much these days, “impostor” is a pretty good vocabulary word for a five-year-old.
I blame Among Us. I don’t know if five-year-olds play it, but they at least talk to people who do (or watch their youtube videos).
I know my 8-year-old has been playing it since before he turned 8, and my older kids, up to 17 years old, play it.
My sense is that a major factor in how fast kids vocabularies grow is how adults talk to and around them.
The parents of my contemporaries growing up appeared to rein themselves in. Perhaps (assuming it was conscious) to make it easier for the children to understand.
My parents never did. They talked to us just like they talked to each other, and both were college educated and avid readers. If we didn’t know what something meant, we asked. Perhaps the most common expression in the house was “Look it up!” Certainly the dictionaries got heavy use.
As a result, my siblings and I talked the same way. I was in maybe 3rd grade when Mom heard one of my classmates identify me to another as “The kid who uses the big words.”
So if a child uses an unusually sophisticated word, credit the parents.
My sense is that a major factor in how fast kids vocabularies grow is how adults talk to and around them.
The parents of my contemporaries growing up appeared to rein themselves in. Perhaps (assuming it was conscious) to make it easier for the children to understand.
My parents never did. They talked to us just like they talked to each other, and both were college educated and avid readers. If we didn’t know what something meant, we asked. Perhaps the most common expression in the house was “Look it up!” Certainly the dictionaries got heavy use.
As a result, my siblings and I talked the same way. I was in maybe 3rd grade when Mom heard one of my classmates identify me to another as “The kid who uses the big words.”
So if a child uses an unusually sophisticated word, credit the parents.
“anyone heard any good jokes lately?”
“A Republic , if you can keep it.”
-Marjorie Taylor Franklin-
Rubio cracks up, as Lauren Boebert idly nibbles on/fellates the barrel of her automatic weapon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJevnyZzfKg
An asteroid, the Covid-19 virus, Donald Trump, and Lindsay Graham walk into the Shooters Bar in Rifle, Colorado and belly up to the bar.
Boebert slaps a bar towel down and sez “Whaddayu boys having?”
They answer in yodeling unison block harmonies:
“We’ll have what Vlad’s having.”
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/27/russias-putin-warns-of-a-fight-of-all-against-all-at-wef.html
Boebert: “Last call, it’ll be.”
They’ve just started to kill us.
“anyone heard any good jokes lately?”
“A Republic , if you can keep it.”
-Marjorie Taylor Franklin-
Rubio cracks up, as Lauren Boebert idly nibbles on/fellates the barrel of her automatic weapon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJevnyZzfKg
An asteroid, the Covid-19 virus, Donald Trump, and Lindsay Graham walk into the Shooters Bar in Rifle, Colorado and belly up to the bar.
Boebert slaps a bar towel down and sez “Whaddayu boys having?”
They answer in yodeling unison block harmonies:
“We’ll have what Vlad’s having.”
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/27/russias-putin-warns-of-a-fight-of-all-against-all-at-wef.html
Boebert: “Last call, it’ll be.”
They’ve just started to kill us.
More free NYT content via Yahoo:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/navy-seal-part-angry-mob-132532227.html
I selected these excerpts specifically because they describe almost exactly the things I’ve seen my own friends write and the back-and-forth with people trying to talk them out of their delusions. I guess they all got the same memo.
The rest about the guy’s background and prior experiences with disinformation and conspiracy theories is more generally interesting. Just not as striking to me personally.
More free NYT content via Yahoo:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/navy-seal-part-angry-mob-132532227.html
I selected these excerpts specifically because they describe almost exactly the things I’ve seen my own friends write and the back-and-forth with people trying to talk them out of their delusions. I guess they all got the same memo.
The rest about the guy’s background and prior experiences with disinformation and conspiracy theories is more generally interesting. Just not as striking to me personally.
This
https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap210127.html
is just way cool.
This
https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap210127.html
is just way cool.
the internet is the perfect environment in which to nurture the delusions of the conspiracy-minded.
the internet is the perfect environment in which to nurture the delusions of the conspiracy-minded.
From JDT’s CNBC link above.
And Putin has done such a great job of reducing inequality in Russia** that he obviously cares about the subject. /sarcasm
** See Navalny’s video, which is currently making waves there: https://youtu.be/mxiRAN61n2c
From JDT’s CNBC link above.
And Putin has done such a great job of reducing inequality in Russia** that he obviously cares about the subject. /sarcasm
** See Navalny’s video, which is currently making waves there: https://youtu.be/mxiRAN61n2c
This … is just way cool.
yup.
This … is just way cool.
yup.
Jen Rubin has an interesting take on yesterday’s otherwise dispiriting vote in the Senate https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/01/27/mcconnell-is-not-going-save-gop-itself/
Yeah, I know, grasping at straws. But if straws are all that’s available….
Jen Rubin has an interesting take on yesterday’s otherwise dispiriting vote in the Senate https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/01/27/mcconnell-is-not-going-save-gop-itself/
Yeah, I know, grasping at straws. But if straws are all that’s available….
i’m pretty sure all those treasonous cowards will be there to show their asses to the GOP base, as is required.
i’m pretty sure all those treasonous cowards will be there to show their asses to the GOP base, as is required.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/26/politics/marjorie-taylor-greene-democrats-violence/index.html
Ultimately, it’s all someone else’s fault.
They made her do it.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/26/politics/marjorie-taylor-greene-democrats-violence/index.html
Ultimately, it’s all someone else’s fault.
They made her do it.
man, the party of personal responsibility sure ain’t what it used to (claim to) be
man, the party of personal responsibility sure ain’t what it used to (claim to) be
Tim Kaine? You can’t be serious!
Tim Kaine? You can’t be serious!
man, the party of personal responsibility sure ain’t what it used to (claim to) be
And the ones who are seem all the more special as a result.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/adam-kinzinger-republican-impeach-trump-capitol/2021/01/26/c544cc1e-55fa-11eb-a08b-f1381ef3d207_story.html
man, the party of personal responsibility sure ain’t what it used to (claim to) be
And the ones who are seem all the more special as a result.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/adam-kinzinger-republican-impeach-trump-capitol/2021/01/26/c544cc1e-55fa-11eb-a08b-f1381ef3d207_story.html
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/elections/fl-ne-marjorie-taylor-greene-harass-david-hogg-20210127-wbgdvy4ydvdvzcyn6u4yzu3v7y-story.html
Greene’s been on quite a roll in the last few years.
Why kids? JHC on a popsicle stick…
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/elections/fl-ne-marjorie-taylor-greene-harass-david-hogg-20210127-wbgdvy4ydvdvzcyn6u4yzu3v7y-story.html
Greene’s been on quite a roll in the last few years.
Why kids? JHC on a popsicle stick…
she sounds like a perfectly average consumer of Fox News and talk radio.
used to be we’d try to elect people who were a notch above average. but i guess the GOP’s going to try electing bar-stool pundits for a while.
nice job, Obama.
she sounds like a perfectly average consumer of Fox News and talk radio.
used to be we’d try to elect people who were a notch above average. but i guess the GOP’s going to try electing bar-stool pundits for a while.
nice job, Obama.
A diversion…
The year 2020 was bookended for me by the unexpected loss of two core members of the metal band, Cynic. Drummer Sean Reinert died, reportedly of a massive heart attack, at age 48 just over a year ago (and close on the heels of Neal Peart’s passing). Cynic’s bassist, Sean Malone passed away in December. There was mention in some of the tributes to Malone of his battles with depression and Malone himself had written about how hard Reinert’s passing had been on him, so we can fill in the blanks here.
On the anniversary of Reinert’s passing I watched a Drum Talk tribute documentary where musicians close to him talk about his contributions to the development of modern metal drumming. It’s an interesting video (despite all the ads) with a lot of stories about the recording sessions for Death’s Human album and how Reinert’s drumming on it – at the tender age of 19 – altered the metal landscape.
https://youtu.be/iKJdCM-ngGE
The tribute mentions some drum and bass tracks that Reinert and Steve DiGiorgio did for the Human recordings that let you hear the nuances in Reinert’s playing more clearly. I’ll link one below if you are interested.
https://death.bandcamp.com/track/flattening-of-emotions-drum-bass-tracks
I first heard Cynic when they were opening for Meshuggah in 2010, first major tour after years of thinking that they had been forgotten and passed out of memory. It’s a sweet redemption story. It was also a fantastic set. I’ve been a fan ever since.
A diversion…
The year 2020 was bookended for me by the unexpected loss of two core members of the metal band, Cynic. Drummer Sean Reinert died, reportedly of a massive heart attack, at age 48 just over a year ago (and close on the heels of Neal Peart’s passing). Cynic’s bassist, Sean Malone passed away in December. There was mention in some of the tributes to Malone of his battles with depression and Malone himself had written about how hard Reinert’s passing had been on him, so we can fill in the blanks here.
On the anniversary of Reinert’s passing I watched a Drum Talk tribute documentary where musicians close to him talk about his contributions to the development of modern metal drumming. It’s an interesting video (despite all the ads) with a lot of stories about the recording sessions for Death’s Human album and how Reinert’s drumming on it – at the tender age of 19 – altered the metal landscape.
https://youtu.be/iKJdCM-ngGE
The tribute mentions some drum and bass tracks that Reinert and Steve DiGiorgio did for the Human recordings that let you hear the nuances in Reinert’s playing more clearly. I’ll link one below if you are interested.
https://death.bandcamp.com/track/flattening-of-emotions-drum-bass-tracks
I first heard Cynic when they were opening for Meshuggah in 2010, first major tour after years of thinking that they had been forgotten and passed out of memory. It’s a sweet redemption story. It was also a fantastic set. I’ve been a fan ever since.
One last note about the drum and bass track I linked to above. That’s a single continuous playthrough from Reinert, direct to tape, no punching in and fixing. Not the first playthrough, but a single take nonetheless.
One last note about the drum and bass track I linked to above. That’s a single continuous playthrough from Reinert, direct to tape, no punching in and fixing. Not the first playthrough, but a single take nonetheless.
Tim Kaine? You can’t be serious!
It’s always the quiet ones that you have to watch out for…
Tim Kaine? You can’t be serious!
It’s always the quiet ones that you have to watch out for…
I remember many years ago when Howard Stern was on terrestrial radio and was putting a band together for whatever purposes related to his show. I don’t know how Sean Reinert came to be the proposed drummer, but I recall them mentioning that he was the drummer for Death, whom no one in the studio had ever heard of. They were all joking about what kind of nobody band Death must have been and were wondering if Reinert would be any good.
I never got to hear what the reaction was when they actually got to hear him play, but I remember thinking, “Holy sh*t! He’s going to blow their ever-loving minds!” They must have been wide-eyed and slack-jawed.
I remember many years ago when Howard Stern was on terrestrial radio and was putting a band together for whatever purposes related to his show. I don’t know how Sean Reinert came to be the proposed drummer, but I recall them mentioning that he was the drummer for Death, whom no one in the studio had ever heard of. They were all joking about what kind of nobody band Death must have been and were wondering if Reinert would be any good.
I never got to hear what the reaction was when they actually got to hear him play, but I remember thinking, “Holy sh*t! He’s going to blow their ever-loving minds!” They must have been wide-eyed and slack-jawed.
Ooops! Never mind. That was Richard Christy, also from Death. The rest of the story holds, though, even if not particularly relevant.
Ooops! Never mind. That was Richard Christy, also from Death. The rest of the story holds, though, even if not particularly relevant.
Richard Christy had to be good. He had to play Reinert’s and Gene Hoglan’s parts live.
The four albums that Death put out from Human to Chuck Schuldiner’s own death are all legendary performances.
Richard Christy had to be good. He had to play Reinert’s and Gene Hoglan’s parts live.
The four albums that Death put out from Human to Chuck Schuldiner’s own death are all legendary performances.
It’s a coup!
Despite my inclination to view the system of private property as a thinly disguised criminal enterprise…I applaud this.
Throw the fucking fascists out. Apologies for the dyspepsia.
It’s a coup!
Despite my inclination to view the system of private property as a thinly disguised criminal enterprise…I applaud this.
Throw the fucking fascists out. Apologies for the dyspepsia.
I can sympathize with those who think that the disaster relief (aka “stimulus checks”) ought to be means tested. But I suspect that the effort, and especially the time, required to do that kind of evaluation is simply not worth it.
If you are setting up some kind of long-term payments system (see previous mention of guaranteed basic income), then it makes sense to make the effort to do means testing. But for what is, God willing, a very temporary effort? No.
I can sympathize with those who think that the disaster relief (aka “stimulus checks”) ought to be means tested. But I suspect that the effort, and especially the time, required to do that kind of evaluation is simply not worth it.
If you are setting up some kind of long-term payments system (see previous mention of guaranteed basic income), then it makes sense to make the effort to do means testing. But for what is, God willing, a very temporary effort? No.
Despite my inclination to view the system of private property as a thinly disguised criminal enterprise
bobbyp, is there any kind of private enterprise that you don’t regard as some kind of criminal enterprise? Just curious. 😉
Despite my inclination to view the system of private property as a thinly disguised criminal enterprise
bobbyp, is there any kind of private enterprise that you don’t regard as some kind of criminal enterprise? Just curious. 😉
I can sympathize with those who think that the disaster relief (aka “stimulus checks”) ought to be means tested.
i’d like to know the overlap between that group and the group of people who believe that money trickles-down.
I can sympathize with those who think that the disaster relief (aka “stimulus checks”) ought to be means tested.
i’d like to know the overlap between that group and the group of people who believe that money trickles-down.
A diversion…
I’m not a metal guy, and metal drumming is about as far from my own personal approach as you can get.
That said, the level of sheer virtuosic prowess those guys wield is basically astounding. Even at the entry level, the technical bar for that style is very very high, and the guys who are really good are just amazing, formidable drummers. Thorobred athletes of the instrument.
:respect:
A diversion…
I’m not a metal guy, and metal drumming is about as far from my own personal approach as you can get.
That said, the level of sheer virtuosic prowess those guys wield is basically astounding. Even at the entry level, the technical bar for that style is very very high, and the guys who are really good are just amazing, formidable drummers. Thorobred athletes of the instrument.
:respect:
wj,
I have nothing against enterprise and trade. The system of private property is another matter. It is essentially based on state sanctioned theft and squatting.
I blame watching Star Trek back in the late 60’s. It ruined me forever.
But I am also a firm believer that you have to deal with the politics you have, not the politics of your dreams.
Have a good one. Thanks.
wj,
I have nothing against enterprise and trade. The system of private property is another matter. It is essentially based on state sanctioned theft and squatting.
I blame watching Star Trek back in the late 60’s. It ruined me forever.
But I am also a firm believer that you have to deal with the politics you have, not the politics of your dreams.
Have a good one. Thanks.
That said, the level of sheer virtuosic prowess those guys wield is basically astounding.
Reinert was a huge fan of Vinnie Colaiuta and was always trying to inject a bit of groove and feel into his playing.
While playing double bass at about 220 bpm.
His playing with Cynic really did find that balance point between metal and fusion. Just astounding stuff.
That said, the level of sheer virtuosic prowess those guys wield is basically astounding.
Reinert was a huge fan of Vinnie Colaiuta and was always trying to inject a bit of groove and feel into his playing.
While playing double bass at about 220 bpm.
His playing with Cynic really did find that balance point between metal and fusion. Just astounding stuff.
One study puts the tipping point, between spending the stimulus check and saving it, at about $75,000 annual income.
One study puts the tipping point, between spending the stimulus check and saving it, at about $75,000 annual income.
i’d like to know the overlap between that group and the group of people who believe that money trickles-down.
As I hope was obvious, I don’t think means testing is worthwhile in this case. But as a general rule, I can see some value in it.
On the other hand, I think that the evidence is pretty overwhelming that the “trickle down” theory was flat wrong. We can argue about what portion of those who supported it 40 years ago were sincere vs those didn’t believe but found proposing it to be a useful tool. But it’s no longer possible to be attached to reality** and still believe it.
Not sure where that puts me in your overlap question.
** And how sad that it is necessary to put that caveat into every policy discussion these days!
i’d like to know the overlap between that group and the group of people who believe that money trickles-down.
As I hope was obvious, I don’t think means testing is worthwhile in this case. But as a general rule, I can see some value in it.
On the other hand, I think that the evidence is pretty overwhelming that the “trickle down” theory was flat wrong. We can argue about what portion of those who supported it 40 years ago were sincere vs those didn’t believe but found proposing it to be a useful tool. But it’s no longer possible to be attached to reality** and still believe it.
Not sure where that puts me in your overlap question.
** And how sad that it is necessary to put that caveat into every policy discussion these days!
I have nothing against enterprise and trade. The system of private property is another matter. It is essentially based on state sanctioned theft and squatting.
I’m guessing that I just don’t understand what you mean by “private property.” Because there’s no way trade happens without private property as I understand the term. Care to help me out here?
I have nothing against enterprise and trade. The system of private property is another matter. It is essentially based on state sanctioned theft and squatting.
I’m guessing that I just don’t understand what you mean by “private property.” Because there’s no way trade happens without private property as I understand the term. Care to help me out here?
Utopian Idealism(TM) is opposed to means testing for a variety of reasons. There’s a lot of back and forth on the concept. A very brief exposition is found here.
Utopian Idealism(TM) is opposed to means testing for a variety of reasons. There’s a lot of back and forth on the concept. A very brief exposition is found here.
On the other hand, I think that the evidence is pretty overwhelming that the “trickle down” theory was flat wrong.
About the only people to ever articulate the trickle-down theory are critics making a slur against supply-side economics.
On the other hand, I think that the evidence is pretty overwhelming that the “trickle down” theory was flat wrong.
About the only people to ever articulate the trickle-down theory are critics making a slur against supply-side economics.
Reagan’s budget director, David Stockman
Reagan’s budget director, David Stockman
Care to help me out here?
Much too big a topic….but I did find this abstract of an article that strikes me as reasonable. Download it and give it a read. I plan to look it over as well. Perhaps it will help.
https://epublications.marquette.edu/dissertations/AAI8203767/
Care to help me out here?
Much too big a topic….but I did find this abstract of an article that strikes me as reasonable. Download it and give it a read. I plan to look it over as well. Perhaps it will help.
https://epublications.marquette.edu/dissertations/AAI8203767/
Welp, it’s the woodshed for Charles.
In a related matter, Larry Kudlow will kick off his new lie fest on FOX Bullshit News by recounting his call in March 2020 that the Covid-19 pandemic was completely under control, a few cases was all, and if it wasn’t under control, how come the all-knowing, all-seeing markets weren’t indicating it wasn’t … wait, this just in … CRASH!!
Excuse me, gentleman, he said, but I’m experiencing some trickle down my pantlegs, but, not to worry, it isn’t for a lack of smug, whackjob chutzpah, but just my usual forecasting incontinence.
He added that he wasn’t completely wrong; he had “hedged” his official opinions to the country by purchasing naked out of the money puts just the week before, illustrating an ability to have his head in two places at once, firmly up his ass, AND at the casino window cashing in his chips.
Nostradamus died of edema, a complication of goutis footinthemouth.
He had a premonition.
You say “guillotine” to Kudlow and he looks around innocently and asks: “Who me? The blade never falls; it can only rise, like the yeast in cake.”
Welp, it’s the woodshed for Charles.
In a related matter, Larry Kudlow will kick off his new lie fest on FOX Bullshit News by recounting his call in March 2020 that the Covid-19 pandemic was completely under control, a few cases was all, and if it wasn’t under control, how come the all-knowing, all-seeing markets weren’t indicating it wasn’t … wait, this just in … CRASH!!
Excuse me, gentleman, he said, but I’m experiencing some trickle down my pantlegs, but, not to worry, it isn’t for a lack of smug, whackjob chutzpah, but just my usual forecasting incontinence.
He added that he wasn’t completely wrong; he had “hedged” his official opinions to the country by purchasing naked out of the money puts just the week before, illustrating an ability to have his head in two places at once, firmly up his ass, AND at the casino window cashing in his chips.
Nostradamus died of edema, a complication of goutis footinthemouth.
He had a premonition.
You say “guillotine” to Kudlow and he looks around innocently and asks: “Who me? The blade never falls; it can only rise, like the yeast in cake.”
A lot of folks assume that means testing is in general worthwhile. When last I researched it, I came up with no really solid evidence that it ever pays for itself. I’m not talking about huge rewards here, just about breaking even on the costs of establishing means thresholds, designing a specific testing mechanism for the project at hand, and applying it. If anyone who knows the literature of policy cost analysis better can clue me up, I’ll take it. But I advise against any assumption that it’s usually a good idea, at a bare minimum.
A lot of folks assume that means testing is in general worthwhile. When last I researched it, I came up with no really solid evidence that it ever pays for itself. I’m not talking about huge rewards here, just about breaking even on the costs of establishing means thresholds, designing a specific testing mechanism for the project at hand, and applying it. If anyone who knows the literature of policy cost analysis better can clue me up, I’ll take it. But I advise against any assumption that it’s usually a good idea, at a bare minimum.
I’d say the purpose of means testing never was money saving. It’s about certain people NOT receiving benefits. If that costs more, even much more, or leads to some worthies also not getting them that’s just regrettable but inevitable side effects.
I’d say the purpose of means testing never was money saving. It’s about certain people NOT receiving benefits. If that costs more, even much more, or leads to some worthies also not getting them that’s just regrettable but inevitable side effects.
For a certain set of people to stop listening to Kudlow, he will have to be wrong N + 1 times, where N equals the number of times he’s been wrong, including the current one.
For a certain set of people to stop listening to Kudlow, he will have to be wrong N + 1 times, where N equals the number of times he’s been wrong, including the current one.
I’d say the purpose of means testing never was money saving. It’s about certain people NOT receiving benefits. If that costs more, even much more, or leads to some worthies also not getting them that’s just regrettable but inevitable side effects.
A friend of mine once opined that the true mark of conservative/liberal was that the conservative is willing to let some people go needy in order to prevent people from cheating and the liberal is willing to let a few people cheat in order to reach a few more needy people.
I’d say the purpose of means testing never was money saving. It’s about certain people NOT receiving benefits. If that costs more, even much more, or leads to some worthies also not getting them that’s just regrettable but inevitable side effects.
A friend of mine once opined that the true mark of conservative/liberal was that the conservative is willing to let some people go needy in order to prevent people from cheating and the liberal is willing to let a few people cheat in order to reach a few more needy people.
The soon-to-be-executed conservative movement republican party is solidifying the Presidency as Trump’s Pakistani reinforced hidey hole, safe from all rule of law, all justice, all personal responsibility, even as he’s out walking the streets.
Unlike the 9/11 hijackers, the 9/6 violent insurrectionists are feeding on their three-week-old exploits to up the ante and kill Americans and government again.
Since we must always ask “principled” armed conservative snowflakes, the chaperones of the radical rightwing, what should be done to eliminate this danger to America, for fear that we in turn might take advantage and give someone subsidized healthcare, what say you, enablers?
What are your guns for?
If this isn’t the time to use them in the service of your country, what has yet to happen besides all of us waiting for YOU to be terrified of these murderers, who despite murderous behavior remain in high national, state, and local government office and are merely reloading for their next assault.
Is there a white neck out there these killers will place their knee on that you will finally determine to be over the line.
The soon-to-be-executed conservative movement republican party is solidifying the Presidency as Trump’s Pakistani reinforced hidey hole, safe from all rule of law, all justice, all personal responsibility, even as he’s out walking the streets.
Unlike the 9/11 hijackers, the 9/6 violent insurrectionists are feeding on their three-week-old exploits to up the ante and kill Americans and government again.
Since we must always ask “principled” armed conservative snowflakes, the chaperones of the radical rightwing, what should be done to eliminate this danger to America, for fear that we in turn might take advantage and give someone subsidized healthcare, what say you, enablers?
What are your guns for?
If this isn’t the time to use them in the service of your country, what has yet to happen besides all of us waiting for YOU to be terrified of these murderers, who despite murderous behavior remain in high national, state, and local government office and are merely reloading for their next assault.
Is there a white neck out there these killers will place their knee on that you will finally determine to be over the line.
Rich and poor alike are equally free in America to sleep under bridges.
McConnell filth are against infrastructure spending unless and until the bridges are built over their mansions and the poor must pay a t(r)oll to cross them.
Rich and poor alike are equally free in America to sleep under bridges.
McConnell filth are against infrastructure spending unless and until the bridges are built over their mansions and the poor must pay a t(r)oll to cross them.
Is there a white neck out there these killers will place their knee on that you will finally determine to be over the line.
Just speculating, of course. But while someone in their immediate family might not do it, perhpas if it was Trump’s neck? Or would that just prove it was a false flag operation?
Is there a white neck out there these killers will place their knee on that you will finally determine to be over the line.
Just speculating, of course. But while someone in their immediate family might not do it, perhpas if it was Trump’s neck? Or would that just prove it was a false flag operation?
Sometimes, I actually like someone being called a RINO.
https://twitter.com/RepKinzinger/status/1354279353404813314
Couldn’t happen to a nicer person. /sarcasm
Sometimes, I actually like someone being called a RINO.
https://twitter.com/RepKinzinger/status/1354279353404813314
Couldn’t happen to a nicer person. /sarcasm
Trump called RINOs “the lowest form of human life”, which to my sensitive ears, sounds complimentary relative to where his fully-owned, butt-licking Republican Party stands on the evolutionary scale, before birds, down among the creepy, crawly, slithering, predatory things whose reptilian brain stems are good for little more than triggering whiplash tongues to snag and eat small prey from a safe distance.
It makes about as much sense as calling Marge a Green(e) Party member in name only, which at least sounds obvious, and I hope is how her family feels about the genocidal wannabe and their shared provenance.
The mealy-mouthed smarm expert Susan Collins is a lot of awful things, but RINO hardly makes the cut, but then some acronyms are too lengthy to remember, let alone type.
RINO, (again, let us thank Newt Gingrich et al, for their multi-decades-long injection of flesh-eating poison into the body politic) is on a par with Mao’s demand to “sweep away all cow demons and snake spirits” as the Cultural Revolution gained its deadly momentum, cancel culture before cancel culture.
The term RINO has traveled well in the horrid and now murderous conservative movement, much as Stalinist ice picks found their way to Mexico to interdict Trotsky’s more subtle brain stem.
Not three weeks ago, Pence became a RINO and was about to be hung by his fake rosary in the Nation’s Capitol.
That happened. The leaders of the lynch mob still work INSIDE the Capitol and are kicking back in a tacky resort hotel in Florida, fashioning new nooses and fondling their semi-automatics.
The Black Panthers, those not executed, must be thinking the white on rice have such accommodating safe houses in America.
Yet again.
Remarkable that NOTHING has been done to them.
The search is on. Where, oh, where could they have gone to?
No doubt across the dinner table next Thanksgiving kvetching about the gravy.
Not a conservative knee has knelt on their necks.
unfuckingbelievable.
And unfuckingsustainable.
Trump called RINOs “the lowest form of human life”, which to my sensitive ears, sounds complimentary relative to where his fully-owned, butt-licking Republican Party stands on the evolutionary scale, before birds, down among the creepy, crawly, slithering, predatory things whose reptilian brain stems are good for little more than triggering whiplash tongues to snag and eat small prey from a safe distance.
It makes about as much sense as calling Marge a Green(e) Party member in name only, which at least sounds obvious, and I hope is how her family feels about the genocidal wannabe and their shared provenance.
The mealy-mouthed smarm expert Susan Collins is a lot of awful things, but RINO hardly makes the cut, but then some acronyms are too lengthy to remember, let alone type.
RINO, (again, let us thank Newt Gingrich et al, for their multi-decades-long injection of flesh-eating poison into the body politic) is on a par with Mao’s demand to “sweep away all cow demons and snake spirits” as the Cultural Revolution gained its deadly momentum, cancel culture before cancel culture.
The term RINO has traveled well in the horrid and now murderous conservative movement, much as Stalinist ice picks found their way to Mexico to interdict Trotsky’s more subtle brain stem.
Not three weeks ago, Pence became a RINO and was about to be hung by his fake rosary in the Nation’s Capitol.
That happened. The leaders of the lynch mob still work INSIDE the Capitol and are kicking back in a tacky resort hotel in Florida, fashioning new nooses and fondling their semi-automatics.
The Black Panthers, those not executed, must be thinking the white on rice have such accommodating safe houses in America.
Yet again.
Remarkable that NOTHING has been done to them.
The search is on. Where, oh, where could they have gone to?
No doubt across the dinner table next Thanksgiving kvetching about the gravy.
Not a conservative knee has knelt on their necks.
unfuckingbelievable.
And unfuckingsustainable.
White RINOs are endangered, so I hear.
People keep shooting them.
White RINOs are endangered, so I hear.
People keep shooting them.
Marge:
As a matter of fact, yes it is a qualification for the Republican Party. Hitler recruited half-assed chicken farmers, having contempt for the half-hearted Rubios and Collins’ of his day, who preferred to sieg heil from the sidelines while keeping their day jobs, the scum.
https://digbysblog.net/2021/01/armed-and-unstable-is-not-a-disqualification/
She’s merely a love child of McConnell’s:
https://digbysblog.net/2021/01/here-comes-the-grim-reaper/
And like all love children, she resents the Daddy who abandoned her.
Marge:
As a matter of fact, yes it is a qualification for the Republican Party. Hitler recruited half-assed chicken farmers, having contempt for the half-hearted Rubios and Collins’ of his day, who preferred to sieg heil from the sidelines while keeping their day jobs, the scum.
https://digbysblog.net/2021/01/armed-and-unstable-is-not-a-disqualification/
She’s merely a love child of McConnell’s:
https://digbysblog.net/2021/01/here-comes-the-grim-reaper/
And like all love children, she resents the Daddy who abandoned her.
Sullivan (in your first Digby link) says
Which is true. However, advocating violence against individual because they hold Federal office, which Greene has done, is illegal. And a disqualification.
Sullivan (in your first Digby link) says
Which is true. However, advocating violence against individual because they hold Federal office, which Greene has done, is illegal. And a disqualification.
I like bc, to thread weave.
It could be worse. He could be a hedge fund guy short Gamestop.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/game-stop-phenomena-is-about-the-poor-vs-rich-reddit-wsb-user-204822769.html
An interesting topic might be the “intersectionality” connecting the Trump debacle sociopathy of the past years to this current vengeful short-squeeze personality disorder, which could take the entire market down as its “mechanisms”, especially in the options and derivatives markets, are shown to be a guy behind a curtain being depantsed as one big lollapalooza of our ongoing national psychosis.
There are not enough poxes to go around for both sides as they do it.
I mean:
https://www.cnbc.com/2015/05/22/hedge-fund-managers-stung-by-class-warfare-rhetoric.html
Remember when Cohen and his fellow hedge fund victims called Obama’s rhetoric against the carried interest deductibility just like the Holocaust.
Now look as the insurrectionist victims, the deplorables, the NYT diner interviewees eat each other for a no-martini lunch.
I own shares in Tesla, but Elon Musk’s recent one word tweet manipulative jukes on behalf of the short-squeezers earns him a shut-the-fuck-up, that latter of which by the way is protected speech.
Go build cars, which is what I’m paying you for and place your Henry Ford mouth in your pocket.
“It is not illegal to write for a conspiracy website. Nor is it a disqualification for serving in public office. Nor is it illegal to be mentally unstable or to hold offbeat, racist or insane views.”
OK then.
The Constitution is a magnificent bulwark protecting assholes, so let’s have at it then, Sullivan.
It’s funny, the bar I hang at, not so much during the pandemic, doesn’t seem to tolerate mentally unstable and offbeat, racist, insane views.
So sue us. Funny, that “offbeat” next to “racist”. Makes you wonder what side of the Bell Curve tolls for Sullivan.
If it’s legal, to paraphrase Carlin, then let’s take the problem as far as it will go, just to see what happens.
See ya outside on the sidewalk, where America will be settled once and for all.
I like bc, to thread weave.
It could be worse. He could be a hedge fund guy short Gamestop.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/game-stop-phenomena-is-about-the-poor-vs-rich-reddit-wsb-user-204822769.html
An interesting topic might be the “intersectionality” connecting the Trump debacle sociopathy of the past years to this current vengeful short-squeeze personality disorder, which could take the entire market down as its “mechanisms”, especially in the options and derivatives markets, are shown to be a guy behind a curtain being depantsed as one big lollapalooza of our ongoing national psychosis.
There are not enough poxes to go around for both sides as they do it.
I mean:
https://www.cnbc.com/2015/05/22/hedge-fund-managers-stung-by-class-warfare-rhetoric.html
Remember when Cohen and his fellow hedge fund victims called Obama’s rhetoric against the carried interest deductibility just like the Holocaust.
Now look as the insurrectionist victims, the deplorables, the NYT diner interviewees eat each other for a no-martini lunch.
I own shares in Tesla, but Elon Musk’s recent one word tweet manipulative jukes on behalf of the short-squeezers earns him a shut-the-fuck-up, that latter of which by the way is protected speech.
Go build cars, which is what I’m paying you for and place your Henry Ford mouth in your pocket.
“It is not illegal to write for a conspiracy website. Nor is it a disqualification for serving in public office. Nor is it illegal to be mentally unstable or to hold offbeat, racist or insane views.”
OK then.
The Constitution is a magnificent bulwark protecting assholes, so let’s have at it then, Sullivan.
It’s funny, the bar I hang at, not so much during the pandemic, doesn’t seem to tolerate mentally unstable and offbeat, racist, insane views.
So sue us. Funny, that “offbeat” next to “racist”. Makes you wonder what side of the Bell Curve tolls for Sullivan.
If it’s legal, to paraphrase Carlin, then let’s take the problem as far as it will go, just to see what happens.
See ya outside on the sidewalk, where America will be settled once and for all.
So, are the businesses that have survived the pandemic, but are hanging by their nails, being told that their expenses are going to be artificially raised?
Expenses are artificial. They are a human creation, not something coming from nature. Should struggling workers be told that their incomes will continue to be artificially suppressed? Or will businesses be told that their customers will artificially have more money to spend?
HSH, what do you mean by *expenses being artificial” and what are you saying here?
So, are the businesses that have survived the pandemic, but are hanging by their nails, being told that their expenses are going to be artificially raised?
Expenses are artificial. They are a human creation, not something coming from nature. Should struggling workers be told that their incomes will continue to be artificially suppressed? Or will businesses be told that their customers will artificially have more money to spend?
HSH, what do you mean by *expenses being artificial” and what are you saying here?
advocating violence against individual because they hold Federal office, which Greene has done, is illegal. And a disqualification.
it should, at least, be grounds for not letting her carry a firearm onto the House floor.
I’m a man of modest goals.
advocating violence against individual because they hold Federal office, which Greene has done, is illegal. And a disqualification.
it should, at least, be grounds for not letting her carry a firearm onto the House floor.
I’m a man of modest goals.
It (guns on the Floor) already being illegal in the first place makes that goal more (or would that be less?) than modest.
“(put the) Gun down or be gunned down” should be the new slogan over the doors of the chamber.
It (guns on the Floor) already being illegal in the first place makes that goal more (or would that be less?) than modest.
“(put the) Gun down or be gunned down” should be the new slogan over the doors of the chamber.
HSH, what do you mean by *expenses being artificial” and what are you saying here?
I’m taking issue with the notion that there’s some default “natural” state for expenses (or wages or any other financial creation of human beings). The whole damned thing – markets, economies, money – is artificial, as in, it only exists because of human artifice.
So, when our political/economic system allows wages (which are initially an expense to businesses, yet find their way back to businesses as revenue) to be determined (at least above some paltry minimum) by “the market,” it’s somehow natural, as though ordained by God and as though there is no concerted, human, downward pressure on them – from those humans with greater political/economic power. Yet, when our political/economic system raises that paltry minimum to something less paltry, it’s suddenly “artificial,” in defiance of the economic God and economic nature.
We’re upsetting some cosmic order – because the “Law of Supply and Demand” is perfect and all-knowing, rather than an abstraction of how things work, with varying degrees of applicability to the real world depending on the situation.
In physics, you ignore a bunch of stuff when you first learn the concepts and solve basic problems. Ignore wind resistance when calculating how far a projectile will go. Sometimes you can do that even in the real world because, in some situations, wind resistance in negligible and you don’t need a terribly accurate result. Other times, ignoring wind resistance will render your result useless – far less accurate than is needed, and maybe someone gets killed.
There’s a sh*t-ton of wind resistance (so to speak) in labor markets, all of which is ignored when wages are left to the market via the notion that supply and demand will sort it out in a way that broadly benefits actual humans. People aren’t bags of rice, and living life according to Econ 101 sucks.
(It’s a rhetorical peeve of mine.)
HSH, what do you mean by *expenses being artificial” and what are you saying here?
I’m taking issue with the notion that there’s some default “natural” state for expenses (or wages or any other financial creation of human beings). The whole damned thing – markets, economies, money – is artificial, as in, it only exists because of human artifice.
So, when our political/economic system allows wages (which are initially an expense to businesses, yet find their way back to businesses as revenue) to be determined (at least above some paltry minimum) by “the market,” it’s somehow natural, as though ordained by God and as though there is no concerted, human, downward pressure on them – from those humans with greater political/economic power. Yet, when our political/economic system raises that paltry minimum to something less paltry, it’s suddenly “artificial,” in defiance of the economic God and economic nature.
We’re upsetting some cosmic order – because the “Law of Supply and Demand” is perfect and all-knowing, rather than an abstraction of how things work, with varying degrees of applicability to the real world depending on the situation.
In physics, you ignore a bunch of stuff when you first learn the concepts and solve basic problems. Ignore wind resistance when calculating how far a projectile will go. Sometimes you can do that even in the real world because, in some situations, wind resistance in negligible and you don’t need a terribly accurate result. Other times, ignoring wind resistance will render your result useless – far less accurate than is needed, and maybe someone gets killed.
There’s a sh*t-ton of wind resistance (so to speak) in labor markets, all of which is ignored when wages are left to the market via the notion that supply and demand will sort it out in a way that broadly benefits actual humans. People aren’t bags of rice, and living life according to Econ 101 sucks.
(It’s a rhetorical peeve of mine.)
Other times, ignoring wind resistance will render your result useless – far less accurate than is needed, and maybe someone gets killed.
And a federal minimum wage assumes a certain level of wind resistance regardless of local conditions. A $15 an hour federal minimum wage will be another contributing factor, perhaps a large one, to the continuing depopulation of rural areas, small towns, and the hollowing out of inner cities. All the while wealthy suburbs may hardly notice an increase in the minimum wage.
Other times, ignoring wind resistance will render your result useless – far less accurate than is needed, and maybe someone gets killed.
And a federal minimum wage assumes a certain level of wind resistance regardless of local conditions. A $15 an hour federal minimum wage will be another contributing factor, perhaps a large one, to the continuing depopulation of rural areas, small towns, and the hollowing out of inner cities. All the while wealthy suburbs may hardly notice an increase in the minimum wage.
On that, we agree, at least in part. The minimum wage in NYC-metro should be higher than the minimum wage in rural Mississippi.
On that, we agree, at least in part. The minimum wage in NYC-metro should be higher than the minimum wage in rural Mississippi.
and now RobinHood is stepping in to restrict what people can do with GME et al.
https://twitter.com/BullInvestPR/status/1354853566360539136
users are shocked to learn that a trading platform can control how you use it. stupid EULA.
tee hee
and now RobinHood is stepping in to restrict what people can do with GME et al.
https://twitter.com/BullInvestPR/status/1354853566360539136
users are shocked to learn that a trading platform can control how you use it. stupid EULA.
tee hee
I’m taking issue with the notion that there’s some default “natural” state for expenses (or wages or any other financial creation of human beings). The whole damned thing – markets, economies, money – is artificial, as in, it only exists because of human artifice.
Quantifying expenses is certainly a human creation. But expenses? Those are pretty clearly just as natural as wind resistance or anything else in physics. It takes effort and inputs (including time) to do something or create something. Those inputs are expenses. Whether it is worthwhile depends, in part, on how those inputs relate to the outputs.
To take the specific case of wages, that’s just a matter of how much you have to give someone else in order to persuade them to put in the effort required to do or make something. Quantifying it makes in monetary wages. Giving them a share of the output (think sharecropping) doesn’t change the fact that there is an expense.
I’m taking issue with the notion that there’s some default “natural” state for expenses (or wages or any other financial creation of human beings). The whole damned thing – markets, economies, money – is artificial, as in, it only exists because of human artifice.
Quantifying expenses is certainly a human creation. But expenses? Those are pretty clearly just as natural as wind resistance or anything else in physics. It takes effort and inputs (including time) to do something or create something. Those inputs are expenses. Whether it is worthwhile depends, in part, on how those inputs relate to the outputs.
To take the specific case of wages, that’s just a matter of how much you have to give someone else in order to persuade them to put in the effort required to do or make something. Quantifying it makes in monetary wages. Giving them a share of the output (think sharecropping) doesn’t change the fact that there is an expense.
users are shocked to learn that a trading platform can control how you use it. stupid EULA.
It’s those terms and conditions that people just click OK on without reading. Maybe they should try reading what they are (virtually) signing up for. At least occasionally.
users are shocked to learn that a trading platform can control how you use it. stupid EULA.
It’s those terms and conditions that people just click OK on without reading. Maybe they should try reading what they are (virtually) signing up for. At least occasionally.
A $15 an hour federal minimum wage will be another contributing factor, perhaps a large one, to the continuing depopulation of rural areas, small towns, and the hollowing out of inner cities.
huh?
not arguing for or against a higher minimum wage here, just trying to understand how raising minimum wage empties out rural areas etc.
in your own words would be cool, but a Reason article is OK if that’s what is handy. just trying to follow the logic of the premise.
A $15 an hour federal minimum wage will be another contributing factor, perhaps a large one, to the continuing depopulation of rural areas, small towns, and the hollowing out of inner cities.
huh?
not arguing for or against a higher minimum wage here, just trying to understand how raising minimum wage empties out rural areas etc.
in your own words would be cool, but a Reason article is OK if that’s what is handy. just trying to follow the logic of the premise.
Yet, when our political/economic system raises that paltry minimum to something less paltry, it’s suddenly “artificial,” in defiance of the economic God and economic nature.
You don’t think supply and demand doesn’t apply to the cost of labor or the end cost of a product or service? That Bob or Sally won’t go next door for a dollar an hour more? Or a shorter driver to work? Or that smarter, harder working people generally earn more than less sharp or less hard working people?
Supply and demand isn’t slide rule accurate, but that’s true of all human interaction. Government diktat that ignores supply and demand produces the same thing year in and year out: less for everyone.
Yet, when our political/economic system raises that paltry minimum to something less paltry, it’s suddenly “artificial,” in defiance of the economic God and economic nature.
You don’t think supply and demand doesn’t apply to the cost of labor or the end cost of a product or service? That Bob or Sally won’t go next door for a dollar an hour more? Or a shorter driver to work? Or that smarter, harder working people generally earn more than less sharp or less hard working people?
Supply and demand isn’t slide rule accurate, but that’s true of all human interaction. Government diktat that ignores supply and demand produces the same thing year in and year out: less for everyone.
just trying to follow the logic of the premise.
raising minimum wage kills jobs. and rural areas, small towns and inner cities are all about minimum wage jobs.
also, keeping wages low is great and if people don’t like it they should find higher-paying jobs. but they should keep in mind that higher-paying jobs should really pay less, so they should feel bad about taking money from innocent job-creators. maybe they should just go starve.
did i get it right?
just trying to follow the logic of the premise.
raising minimum wage kills jobs. and rural areas, small towns and inner cities are all about minimum wage jobs.
also, keeping wages low is great and if people don’t like it they should find higher-paying jobs. but they should keep in mind that higher-paying jobs should really pay less, so they should feel bad about taking money from innocent job-creators. maybe they should just go starve.
did i get it right?
did i get it right?
You left out the part about how higher wages would necessarily also raise the prices that innocent job creators have to pay for things that they buy in their personal capacity. Thus leaving them with less (relative) wealth to flaunt.
did i get it right?
You left out the part about how higher wages would necessarily also raise the prices that innocent job creators have to pay for things that they buy in their personal capacity. Thus leaving them with less (relative) wealth to flaunt.
but if minimum wages workers had more money, there would be more money to spend – just like if rich people had more money there would be more money to spend!
a rising tide lifts all (the right) boats!
but if minimum wages workers had more money, there would be more money to spend – just like if rich people had more money there would be more money to spend!
a rising tide lifts all (the right) boats!
$15/hour wasn’t picked out of thin air. This is from 2016, but it shows what increasing the minimum wage is intended to address.
https://www.epi.org/publication/the-federal-minimum-wage-has-been-eroded-by-decades-of-inaction/
The government diktat in 1968 that the minimum wage should be $1.60/hour does not seem to have been a crushing burden for businesses at the time. McDonalds and other similar franchises were flourishing and expanding.
Leave aside the fact that small businesses will pay people off the books to varying degrees.
$15/hour wasn’t picked out of thin air. This is from 2016, but it shows what increasing the minimum wage is intended to address.
https://www.epi.org/publication/the-federal-minimum-wage-has-been-eroded-by-decades-of-inaction/
The government diktat in 1968 that the minimum wage should be $1.60/hour does not seem to have been a crushing burden for businesses at the time. McDonalds and other similar franchises were flourishing and expanding.
Leave aside the fact that small businesses will pay people off the books to varying degrees.
just trying to follow the logic of the premise.
Ok, a couple of things. The cost of goods and services includes the cost of labor. You can’t get away from this. Another immutable fact: People will not pay more for goods or services than they are willing or forced by circumstances to pay. If the expense is discretionary, they forego overpriced goods and services. If the issue is necessaries, then they forego other things to pay for what they need.
If Company A makes a non-necessary product that sells adequately at X, but not X times 1.5, and if the law suddenly requires Company A to increase its labor charges by .5 of the selling cost, then Company A is out of business and all of Company A’s employees are out of work.
In rural areas with lower costs of living, lower wages mean lower cost of goods and services for the local citizens. For example: in Uvalde TX, a chalupa cost $2.98. In Houston, they are 1.5 to 2.5 times that. People in Uvalde can get great chalupas for half what people in Houston pay.
Another thing about supply and demand is that you can’t sell something to people who can’t afford to pay for it. When local labor costs are artificially jacked up, so are local prices. That’s ok if you have a job. If you are retired or unemployed, you’re screwed.
just trying to follow the logic of the premise.
Ok, a couple of things. The cost of goods and services includes the cost of labor. You can’t get away from this. Another immutable fact: People will not pay more for goods or services than they are willing or forced by circumstances to pay. If the expense is discretionary, they forego overpriced goods and services. If the issue is necessaries, then they forego other things to pay for what they need.
If Company A makes a non-necessary product that sells adequately at X, but not X times 1.5, and if the law suddenly requires Company A to increase its labor charges by .5 of the selling cost, then Company A is out of business and all of Company A’s employees are out of work.
In rural areas with lower costs of living, lower wages mean lower cost of goods and services for the local citizens. For example: in Uvalde TX, a chalupa cost $2.98. In Houston, they are 1.5 to 2.5 times that. People in Uvalde can get great chalupas for half what people in Houston pay.
Another thing about supply and demand is that you can’t sell something to people who can’t afford to pay for it. When local labor costs are artificially jacked up, so are local prices. That’s ok if you have a job. If you are retired or unemployed, you’re screwed.
Eating out and monthly rent/mortgage costs are certainly lower in rural areas/small towns. Cars, gas, groceries, utilities, guns not so much.
Eating out and monthly rent/mortgage costs are certainly lower in rural areas/small towns. Cars, gas, groceries, utilities, guns not so much.
If McT’s logic is true, shouldn’t housing then be based on need?
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2021/01/decolonizing-housing
If McT’s logic is true, shouldn’t housing then be based on need?
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2021/01/decolonizing-housing
“Demand a $15 minimum wage now!
When there’s a $15 minimum wage, robots prosper! Supporting an increase in the minimum wage and is support for the robotic revolution and a glorious, mechanized future!”
Robots for a $15 Minimum Wage: Support a $15 minimum wage – Support the FUTURE!
“Demand a $15 minimum wage now!
When there’s a $15 minimum wage, robots prosper! Supporting an increase in the minimum wage and is support for the robotic revolution and a glorious, mechanized future!”
Robots for a $15 Minimum Wage: Support a $15 minimum wage – Support the FUTURE!
Why do we need to speculate/argue about the impact of raising the minimum wage? We have, after all, had a minimum wage for quite a while, and raised it multiple times. If there are massive negative impacts (as argued) they should have been manifest.** Spoiler alert: the (economic) world didn’t end.
** Actual, real life, examples demonstrating said negative impacts, preferably with some indication of the percentage increase, implementation time, and impact, will be welcome
Why do we need to speculate/argue about the impact of raising the minimum wage? We have, after all, had a minimum wage for quite a while, and raised it multiple times. If there are massive negative impacts (as argued) they should have been manifest.** Spoiler alert: the (economic) world didn’t end.
** Actual, real life, examples demonstrating said negative impacts, preferably with some indication of the percentage increase, implementation time, and impact, will be welcome
I’m with hsh.
The “cost” in terms of monetary units is not the same as the actual unit. It is an artificial creation to oil the functioning of a social construct.
Government diktat: Patents are a government diktat. They act to restrict supply and raise prices. They act the same as a tax. Just about everybody who worships “free markets” is all ga-ga for this diktat. Discuss.
The poor rurals: I guess the idiocy of rural life is no longer a valid concept. Why do people leave rural areas? There are not enough jobs and/or opportunities. Why is that? Productivity (think tractors), patents (think Monsanto), and monopoly and/or oligopoly market power. If nobody lives in rural areas (think Wyoming) and they raise the labor wage to a $million/hr. what is the effect? Think hard…nobody lives there.
People who abstract from the actual existence of market power are either ignorant or pushing an agenda.
If everybody’s wage goes up by the same percentage, what happens?
A firm is a price taker, not a price maker. If labor costs go up there are choices: Leave the market, substitute machinery for labor, live with something less than “maximum profit”. Firms face these choices all the time with respect to all of their “inputs”. Remember the oil crisis?
If there was a robot that, when turned on, could produce enough to meet all of our material needs, what would all those really smart people who think so highly of themselves do? Think CEO’s.
I’m with hsh.
The “cost” in terms of monetary units is not the same as the actual unit. It is an artificial creation to oil the functioning of a social construct.
Government diktat: Patents are a government diktat. They act to restrict supply and raise prices. They act the same as a tax. Just about everybody who worships “free markets” is all ga-ga for this diktat. Discuss.
The poor rurals: I guess the idiocy of rural life is no longer a valid concept. Why do people leave rural areas? There are not enough jobs and/or opportunities. Why is that? Productivity (think tractors), patents (think Monsanto), and monopoly and/or oligopoly market power. If nobody lives in rural areas (think Wyoming) and they raise the labor wage to a $million/hr. what is the effect? Think hard…nobody lives there.
People who abstract from the actual existence of market power are either ignorant or pushing an agenda.
If everybody’s wage goes up by the same percentage, what happens?
A firm is a price taker, not a price maker. If labor costs go up there are choices: Leave the market, substitute machinery for labor, live with something less than “maximum profit”. Firms face these choices all the time with respect to all of their “inputs”. Remember the oil crisis?
If there was a robot that, when turned on, could produce enough to meet all of our material needs, what would all those really smart people who think so highly of themselves do? Think CEO’s.
Government diktat that ignores supply and demand produces the same thing year in and year out: less for everyone.
You mean like when the government dictates that one have to pass an exam in order to practice law? An exam that is controlled by those who are members in good standing in this guild?
Or are these good people “taking supply and demand into consideration”?
Government diktat that ignores supply and demand produces the same thing year in and year out: less for everyone.
You mean like when the government dictates that one have to pass an exam in order to practice law? An exam that is controlled by those who are members in good standing in this guild?
Or are these good people “taking supply and demand into consideration”?
When the intricate interplay of supply and demand goes against the filthy rich, what do they do? they scream like stuck pigs and demand government diktat.
When the intricate interplay of supply and demand goes against the filthy rich, what do they do? they scream like stuck pigs and demand government diktat.
Patents are a government diktat. They act to restrict supply and raise prices.
A little history may be enlightening. Start with the word: patent: “open to public inspection”.
Before patents, we had trade secrets. The idea of a patent was that the government would enforce a temporary monopoly. In exchange for which, the trade secret would be revealed, so that others could use the approach as the basis for further innovation going forward. In short, the intention was to increase innovation. Which, historically, it did.
As a monopoly, patents do act to support higher prices than would be seen if everyone could use the idea. But are they higher than would be seen if the idea was protected as a trade secret? Not likely.
The downside is that multiple people will sometimes come up with the same (or very similar) idea at nearly the same time. But only one gets the patent. It does happen. The upside is that the idea is protected for a limited period of time. It also happens that trade secrets can be maintained for far longer than the duration of a patent. It’s a trade-off.
One other problem with the trade secret approach is that it incentivizes using extra-legal means to discover the secret. That, too, used to happen. Having your place of business burglarized, or your technical staff kidnapped, has obvious negative features.
If you think you have a third approach, which will address the issue with less downsides, by all means share. But so far, nobody has come up with something which has a better trade-off.
Patents are a government diktat. They act to restrict supply and raise prices.
A little history may be enlightening. Start with the word: patent: “open to public inspection”.
Before patents, we had trade secrets. The idea of a patent was that the government would enforce a temporary monopoly. In exchange for which, the trade secret would be revealed, so that others could use the approach as the basis for further innovation going forward. In short, the intention was to increase innovation. Which, historically, it did.
As a monopoly, patents do act to support higher prices than would be seen if everyone could use the idea. But are they higher than would be seen if the idea was protected as a trade secret? Not likely.
The downside is that multiple people will sometimes come up with the same (or very similar) idea at nearly the same time. But only one gets the patent. It does happen. The upside is that the idea is protected for a limited period of time. It also happens that trade secrets can be maintained for far longer than the duration of a patent. It’s a trade-off.
One other problem with the trade secret approach is that it incentivizes using extra-legal means to discover the secret. That, too, used to happen. Having your place of business burglarized, or your technical staff kidnapped, has obvious negative features.
If you think you have a third approach, which will address the issue with less downsides, by all means share. But so far, nobody has come up with something which has a better trade-off.
In rural areas with lower costs of living, lower wages mean lower cost of goods and services for the local citizens. For example: in Uvalde TX, a chalupa cost $2.98. In Houston, they are 1.5 to 2.5 times that. People in Uvalde can get great chalupas for half what people in Houston pay.
I understand the point you’re making, but I’m skeptical that the difference in the price of chalupas in Uvalde relative to Houston is primarily, or even at all, down to the difference in entry level pay scale in those two places.
As a counter-example of sorts, during the run-up to Obamacare, John Schnatter of Papa John’s Pizza ran the numbers on what it would cost to provide basic health insurance to all of his employees. IIRC it worked out to about 14 cents a pizza. He found that outrageous, of course.
In rural areas with lower costs of living, lower wages mean lower cost of goods and services for the local citizens. For example: in Uvalde TX, a chalupa cost $2.98. In Houston, they are 1.5 to 2.5 times that. People in Uvalde can get great chalupas for half what people in Houston pay.
I understand the point you’re making, but I’m skeptical that the difference in the price of chalupas in Uvalde relative to Houston is primarily, or even at all, down to the difference in entry level pay scale in those two places.
As a counter-example of sorts, during the run-up to Obamacare, John Schnatter of Papa John’s Pizza ran the numbers on what it would cost to provide basic health insurance to all of his employees. IIRC it worked out to about 14 cents a pizza. He found that outrageous, of course.
The idea of a patent was that the government would enforce a temporary monopoly. In exchange for which, the trade secret would be revealed
As one who has the marvelous pleasure of reading OSHA (diktat!!!!!) SDS sheets, I can tell you, with 100% confidence, that “trade secrets” or “proprietary information” is alive and well.
So if “theft” of “secrets” is wrong, should we send reparations to the British from whom we stole the workings of the mechanical loom back in the early 19th century?
If that was “too long ago” when does “too long ago cease? Why is fantasia still subject to copyright? What social purpose is served thereby?
Please also flesh out “limited period of time”. For just how long must we, as a society, endure MicroSoft copyright in order for MS shareholders and Bill Gates to get rich?
Patents also incentivise anti-social behavior. See drug patents (cf Dean Baker) for more on this.
The idea of a patent was that the government would enforce a temporary monopoly. In exchange for which, the trade secret would be revealed
As one who has the marvelous pleasure of reading OSHA (diktat!!!!!) SDS sheets, I can tell you, with 100% confidence, that “trade secrets” or “proprietary information” is alive and well.
So if “theft” of “secrets” is wrong, should we send reparations to the British from whom we stole the workings of the mechanical loom back in the early 19th century?
If that was “too long ago” when does “too long ago cease? Why is fantasia still subject to copyright? What social purpose is served thereby?
Please also flesh out “limited period of time”. For just how long must we, as a society, endure MicroSoft copyright in order for MS shareholders and Bill Gates to get rich?
Patents also incentivise anti-social behavior. See drug patents (cf Dean Baker) for more on this.
wj,
In essence, you made my point. You came out swinging in defense of a “government diktat”.
I do, however, realize that you are cognizant of the fact that “government diktat” is not necessarily a social evil and has its place….unlike those ideologues who make sweeping assertions about the terrible things arising from said “diktats”.
But I still believe you should leave the GOP.
🙂
wj,
In essence, you made my point. You came out swinging in defense of a “government diktat”.
I do, however, realize that you are cognizant of the fact that “government diktat” is not necessarily a social evil and has its place….unlike those ideologues who make sweeping assertions about the terrible things arising from said “diktats”.
But I still believe you should leave the GOP.
🙂
DIKTAT!!!!
DIKTAT!!!!
in your own words would be cool, but a Reason article is OK if that’s what is handy. just trying to follow the logic of the premise.
All the sources I can find only touch lightly on the impact of minimum wage changes on populations in rural, small towns, and inner cities.
The idea is that these areas are populated by small businesses, mom & pop shops, etc. Some of the owners may not be making much more than some of their employees. Or even less. If they are forced to pay higher wages, they may reduce the number of employees or go out of business. In an effort to find work, the former employees may have to move to larger cities or out of state. This reduces the number of customers for the remaining business who, in turn, may have to reduce employment or go out of business. A vicious circle.
in your own words would be cool, but a Reason article is OK if that’s what is handy. just trying to follow the logic of the premise.
All the sources I can find only touch lightly on the impact of minimum wage changes on populations in rural, small towns, and inner cities.
The idea is that these areas are populated by small businesses, mom & pop shops, etc. Some of the owners may not be making much more than some of their employees. Or even less. If they are forced to pay higher wages, they may reduce the number of employees or go out of business. In an effort to find work, the former employees may have to move to larger cities or out of state. This reduces the number of customers for the remaining business who, in turn, may have to reduce employment or go out of business. A vicious circle.
Isn’t a bigger threat to mom and pop stores huge chains like Walmart? That argument might apply when there weren’t a lot of big box stores, but that ship has sailed me boyo…
Isn’t a bigger threat to mom and pop stores huge chains like Walmart? That argument might apply when there weren’t a lot of big box stores, but that ship has sailed me boyo…
Most small towns now have those mom and pop businesses Family Dollar and Dollar General. Maybe a Dollar Tree to shake things up.
Most small towns now have those mom and pop businesses Family Dollar and Dollar General. Maybe a Dollar Tree to shake things up.
The idea is that these areas are populated by small businesses, mom & pop shops, etc. Some of the owners may not be making much more than some of their employees. Or even less.
without some actual data here, I’m skeptical of the claim that rural economies are skewed toward small businesses more than urban ones. or, that small business owners in urban areas are on net making more than those in rural areas.
nothing specifically rural about mom & pops, as far as I can tell.
you could, perhaps, make the case that cost of living in rural areas is lower, and therefore the need for a higher minimum wage is less urgent. I’d counter that there are lots of urban areas where the cost of living is relatively low – mostly cities that are not doing so well.
in any case, $15/hour for a full-time job is $30K a year. that is not a hell of a lot of money, anywhere you go.
here’s the MIT living wage calculator, which has a good breakdown of liveable wage, poverty wage, and current minimum wage, for every county in the country. they break it down by family and employment structure (single, couple, how many kids, 1 or 2 people working). I haven’t looked at it exhaustively, but I did check a variety of places.
Wayne County in MI, where Detroit is, not that different from Rankin County MS. Just a semi-random example.
It’s cheaper to live in poor places, urban vs rural seems less relevant. Maybe that means a higher minimum wage is not as necessary in poor places. Conversely, maybe a higher minimum wage would mean they’d be less poor. Not just the lowest earning folks, either. If you give somebody who’s making $10/hour a raise to $15/hour, they are definitely gonna spend the other $5, and that’s gonna go in somebody else’s pocket. In a good way.
The idea is that these areas are populated by small businesses, mom & pop shops, etc. Some of the owners may not be making much more than some of their employees. Or even less.
without some actual data here, I’m skeptical of the claim that rural economies are skewed toward small businesses more than urban ones. or, that small business owners in urban areas are on net making more than those in rural areas.
nothing specifically rural about mom & pops, as far as I can tell.
you could, perhaps, make the case that cost of living in rural areas is lower, and therefore the need for a higher minimum wage is less urgent. I’d counter that there are lots of urban areas where the cost of living is relatively low – mostly cities that are not doing so well.
in any case, $15/hour for a full-time job is $30K a year. that is not a hell of a lot of money, anywhere you go.
here’s the MIT living wage calculator, which has a good breakdown of liveable wage, poverty wage, and current minimum wage, for every county in the country. they break it down by family and employment structure (single, couple, how many kids, 1 or 2 people working). I haven’t looked at it exhaustively, but I did check a variety of places.
Wayne County in MI, where Detroit is, not that different from Rankin County MS. Just a semi-random example.
It’s cheaper to live in poor places, urban vs rural seems less relevant. Maybe that means a higher minimum wage is not as necessary in poor places. Conversely, maybe a higher minimum wage would mean they’d be less poor. Not just the lowest earning folks, either. If you give somebody who’s making $10/hour a raise to $15/hour, they are definitely gonna spend the other $5, and that’s gonna go in somebody else’s pocket. In a good way.
Priest gets it. The “creative destruction” of industrial agriculture and the WalMartization/Amazonization of the retail realm has done more to gut the good things to be lived in the idealized small town American than any, any, raise in the government “diktat” regarding minimum wages.
Anybody who says different is simply blowing smoke.
Priest gets it. The “creative destruction” of industrial agriculture and the WalMartization/Amazonization of the retail realm has done more to gut the good things to be lived in the idealized small town American than any, any, raise in the government “diktat” regarding minimum wages.
Anybody who says different is simply blowing smoke.
Isn’t a bigger threat to mom and pop stores huge chains like Walmart?
But they provide something in exchange. Higher wages and more products and services at a low cost than the mom and pops can. And they can cross-subsidize marginal stores.
Isn’t a bigger threat to mom and pop stores huge chains like Walmart?
But they provide something in exchange. Higher wages and more products and services at a low cost than the mom and pops can. And they can cross-subsidize marginal stores.
…at a lower cost…
…at a lower cost…
Where there is smoke, there is Marge.
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2021/01/28/jews-in-space-laser-edition/
Curdled cream rising to the top. Crackers head for the polls.
You can’t be this full of shit, and be a country unless you are exceptionally exceptional.
See ya, America. it was nice knowing ya.
There are cannibalistic pedophiles hanging out in the basements of GameStop showrooms across the country. They gather masklessly and have Covid measles=sharing parties while watching snuff flicks at AMC theaters.
That should be good for another 1000 points to the upside for both stocks.
Just trying to do my part as a common sense influencer in dumbo confederate racist America.
Where there is smoke, there is Marge.
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2021/01/28/jews-in-space-laser-edition/
Curdled cream rising to the top. Crackers head for the polls.
You can’t be this full of shit, and be a country unless you are exceptionally exceptional.
See ya, America. it was nice knowing ya.
There are cannibalistic pedophiles hanging out in the basements of GameStop showrooms across the country. They gather masklessly and have Covid measles=sharing parties while watching snuff flicks at AMC theaters.
That should be good for another 1000 points to the upside for both stocks.
Just trying to do my part as a common sense influencer in dumbo confederate racist America.
Need more staffers for the dedicated Onion-writers suicide hotline.
Need more staffers for the dedicated Onion-writers suicide hotline.
at a lower cost
Hence a higher minimum wage, right?
at a lower cost
Hence a higher minimum wage, right?
The idea is that these areas are populated by small businesses, mom & pop shops, etc. Some of the owners may not be making much more than some of their employees. Or even less. If they are forced to pay higher wages, they may reduce the number of employees or go out of business.
Charles, I understand the idea. I’m just asking for some evidence of it actually happening that way.
Given all the heat with which the idea is presented, it just seems like someone would have seized the opportunity of all those minimum wage increases to document the idea in real life. And splash it far and wide (to loud, and justified, cries of “We told you so!”).
That it hasn’t happened has to make one wonder why not.
The idea is that these areas are populated by small businesses, mom & pop shops, etc. Some of the owners may not be making much more than some of their employees. Or even less. If they are forced to pay higher wages, they may reduce the number of employees or go out of business.
Charles, I understand the idea. I’m just asking for some evidence of it actually happening that way.
Given all the heat with which the idea is presented, it just seems like someone would have seized the opportunity of all those minimum wage increases to document the idea in real life. And splash it far and wide (to loud, and justified, cries of “We told you so!”).
That it hasn’t happened has to make one wonder why not.
WJ, what is mere empiricism in the face of a beautiful theory? Have you no soul?
🙂
WJ, what is mere empiricism in the face of a beautiful theory? Have you no soul?
🙂
I was trained as an enginser. So no aesthetic appreciation at all. (If I’d been a physics major it might be different.)
I was trained as an enginser. So no aesthetic appreciation at all. (If I’d been a physics major it might be different.)
Higher wages and more products and services at a low cost than the mom and pops can
higher wages? how can they provide higher wages? isn’t that going to inflate the local economy and lead to a hollowing out of the population?
Higher wages and more products and services at a low cost than the mom and pops can
higher wages? how can they provide higher wages? isn’t that going to inflate the local economy and lead to a hollowing out of the population?
can i get a NULLIFY ?!
yeahbutliberals
can i get a NULLIFY ?!
yeahbutliberals
re Gamestop et al:
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/using-gamestop-to-occupy-wall-street/
Be aware that conservative movement populism is folding this entire debacle (regardless of both sidism) into their Trumpian arsenal of nihilist wrecking balls to demolish whatever it is standing in their way, regardless of any reasoned agreement any of US may find with either side’s grievances.
And remember the same conservative gets dug their heels in years ago and to this day when reasonable “liberals” wanted to eliminate hedge funds’ carried interest deductions.
The newfound “conservative” empathy for the 49% of the Romney’s “takers” now buying their mothers some medical care and cars with the proceeds from their short squeezing screw-the elites stock trades is a breathlessly magnificent specimen of how the malign conservative movement gets its worm tongue around every grievance and makes it their own.
As when not so long ago FOX blondes and their Hannity boy toys began quoting Martin Luther King in a favorable light, when decades ago their predecessor Goldwater/Nixon fascist blondes were tracking King’s every commie niggardly movement in supposed love trysts.
Keep the government out of my Medicare, both the cheating hedge fund elites and the seat of their pants deplorables will agree, as they both demand government regulate the other … or, if not … we’ll bring it all down, government and markets.
Ya know who is going to presently emerge to take both sides?
Sure, Trump and his demons ….
But, I mean Grover Norquist, elite populist. leading both mobs.
After all, he needs to do something to thwart Elon Musk’s* bid for the emperor of Elite Populism, getting out ahead of the mobs from on high.
Poxes all around.
Just saying.
I remember on these pages one of our former crank conservatives (Bellmore, I believe) highlighting (and stereotyping the entire movement therefrom, a patented conservative tactic) one alleged Occupy Wall Streeter years ago taking a dump on the fender of a car as nature called and facilities had been withdrawn by conservative authorities.
It wouldn’t surprise me if human fecal material recovered from outside Pelosi’s office in the U.S. Capitol could be traced back to a certain Cinderella’s shoes.
And here we thought he’d be picking cotton in the fields he wanted emptied of real immigrant human beings making a living.
All of this shit fits the conservative populist movement footprint.
*I own some Tesla stock and have traded it for the past couple of years and have been mostly profitable. THAT is not a recommendation, because like every other lying (the lubricant that lets buy and sell happen) American, I won’t be available for you to ask is it time to sell; %-), yeah, I will, but don’t listen. What do I know?) I want Musk to laser his considerable genius on building cars, batteries, and SpaceX (I’m not gonna like it when his satellites black out the Milky Way, however) and otherwise shut his twatting mouth as he jukes whatever the daily juke is.
re Gamestop et al:
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/using-gamestop-to-occupy-wall-street/
Be aware that conservative movement populism is folding this entire debacle (regardless of both sidism) into their Trumpian arsenal of nihilist wrecking balls to demolish whatever it is standing in their way, regardless of any reasoned agreement any of US may find with either side’s grievances.
And remember the same conservative gets dug their heels in years ago and to this day when reasonable “liberals” wanted to eliminate hedge funds’ carried interest deductions.
The newfound “conservative” empathy for the 49% of the Romney’s “takers” now buying their mothers some medical care and cars with the proceeds from their short squeezing screw-the elites stock trades is a breathlessly magnificent specimen of how the malign conservative movement gets its worm tongue around every grievance and makes it their own.
As when not so long ago FOX blondes and their Hannity boy toys began quoting Martin Luther King in a favorable light, when decades ago their predecessor Goldwater/Nixon fascist blondes were tracking King’s every commie niggardly movement in supposed love trysts.
Keep the government out of my Medicare, both the cheating hedge fund elites and the seat of their pants deplorables will agree, as they both demand government regulate the other … or, if not … we’ll bring it all down, government and markets.
Ya know who is going to presently emerge to take both sides?
Sure, Trump and his demons ….
But, I mean Grover Norquist, elite populist. leading both mobs.
After all, he needs to do something to thwart Elon Musk’s* bid for the emperor of Elite Populism, getting out ahead of the mobs from on high.
Poxes all around.
Just saying.
I remember on these pages one of our former crank conservatives (Bellmore, I believe) highlighting (and stereotyping the entire movement therefrom, a patented conservative tactic) one alleged Occupy Wall Streeter years ago taking a dump on the fender of a car as nature called and facilities had been withdrawn by conservative authorities.
It wouldn’t surprise me if human fecal material recovered from outside Pelosi’s office in the U.S. Capitol could be traced back to a certain Cinderella’s shoes.
And here we thought he’d be picking cotton in the fields he wanted emptied of real immigrant human beings making a living.
All of this shit fits the conservative populist movement footprint.
*I own some Tesla stock and have traded it for the past couple of years and have been mostly profitable. THAT is not a recommendation, because like every other lying (the lubricant that lets buy and sell happen) American, I won’t be available for you to ask is it time to sell; %-), yeah, I will, but don’t listen. What do I know?) I want Musk to laser his considerable genius on building cars, batteries, and SpaceX (I’m not gonna like it when his satellites black out the Milky Way, however) and otherwise shut his twatting mouth as he jukes whatever the daily juke is.
Where there is smoke, there is Marge.
On the other hand, Jews in space! What bliss! Thanks, JDT.
Where there is smoke, there is Marge.
On the other hand, Jews in space! What bliss! Thanks, JDT.
I was trained as an enginser. So no aesthetic appreciation at all. (If I’d been a physics major it might be different.)
Ok, anyone who wants can Google “impact of increasing minimum wage” and find a lot of pieces on it. The $15/hr proposal would be the highest ever imposed, even as phased in over 5 years. The CBO puts the job losses somewhere between 1.3 million and 4 million at the high end. That is *job losses*, not reduced hours or small businesses harmed etc. Here’s a link that discusses the CBO.
https://www.factcheck.org/2021/01/paul-distorts-cbos-estimate-on-impact-of-15-minimum-wage/
As an engineer, you appreciate arithmetic (not my strong suit), so imagine your company bids a project. The bid includes labor and materials. If, after you bid the job, a gov’t diktat says “increase your wage rate by one third”, tell me how that is a positive benefit to your project.
To understand the impact on a labor-intensive, low skill enterprise, try viewing a one third mandatory wage increase as if there was a sudden tax hike on people that causes their housing and food costs to increase by one third overnight. The money to pay for that increase has to come from somewhere.
The difference between a family and a business is that, *maybe*, the business can cut other corners and juice prices a bit and make up the difference. But, that’s a *maybe*. One thing that will get cut is employee benefits. Maybe someone has done a study. But, if people think they can waive some magic legislative wand and make things better for workers by requiring more of employers, good luck with that. Marginal businesses will go under, marginal employees will be laid off, hiring will slow, and costs will go up. It will be similar to a recession with the difference being that instead of revenues dropping, expenses will go up. Of course, when expenses go up, and prices go up to cover the expense increase, you well might see a revenue fall off.
Now, you may say, “Fine McKTex, but that isn’t evidence.” True, it’s simply math and logic applied to what the economy does in recessions and how a business operates.
It is not a reach for folks here to equate higher medical costs with negative impacts on families and health insurance. I do not understand why applying similar logic to commerce is so difficult.
Also, as a matter of arithmetic, the increase is not $15/hr. It is $15 X 1.0765, which is the employer’s FICA/Medicare/Medicaid match.
I was trained as an enginser. So no aesthetic appreciation at all. (If I’d been a physics major it might be different.)
Ok, anyone who wants can Google “impact of increasing minimum wage” and find a lot of pieces on it. The $15/hr proposal would be the highest ever imposed, even as phased in over 5 years. The CBO puts the job losses somewhere between 1.3 million and 4 million at the high end. That is *job losses*, not reduced hours or small businesses harmed etc. Here’s a link that discusses the CBO.
https://www.factcheck.org/2021/01/paul-distorts-cbos-estimate-on-impact-of-15-minimum-wage/
As an engineer, you appreciate arithmetic (not my strong suit), so imagine your company bids a project. The bid includes labor and materials. If, after you bid the job, a gov’t diktat says “increase your wage rate by one third”, tell me how that is a positive benefit to your project.
To understand the impact on a labor-intensive, low skill enterprise, try viewing a one third mandatory wage increase as if there was a sudden tax hike on people that causes their housing and food costs to increase by one third overnight. The money to pay for that increase has to come from somewhere.
The difference between a family and a business is that, *maybe*, the business can cut other corners and juice prices a bit and make up the difference. But, that’s a *maybe*. One thing that will get cut is employee benefits. Maybe someone has done a study. But, if people think they can waive some magic legislative wand and make things better for workers by requiring more of employers, good luck with that. Marginal businesses will go under, marginal employees will be laid off, hiring will slow, and costs will go up. It will be similar to a recession with the difference being that instead of revenues dropping, expenses will go up. Of course, when expenses go up, and prices go up to cover the expense increase, you well might see a revenue fall off.
Now, you may say, “Fine McKTex, but that isn’t evidence.” True, it’s simply math and logic applied to what the economy does in recessions and how a business operates.
It is not a reach for folks here to equate higher medical costs with negative impacts on families and health insurance. I do not understand why applying similar logic to commerce is so difficult.
Also, as a matter of arithmetic, the increase is not $15/hr. It is $15 X 1.0765, which is the employer’s FICA/Medicare/Medicaid match.
Also, as a matter of arithmetic, the increase is not $15/hr. It is $15 X 1.0765, which is the employer’s FICA/Medicare/Medicaid match.
that has never been factored in when stating minumum wage.
from the mid 1950s until the mid-1980s, the minimum wage was ~$10 (in today’s dollars). then it started slipping, and now it’s at $7.25 (since 2009).
it needs to go up.
The CBO puts the job losses somewhere between 1.3 million and 4 million at the high end.
and, from your link, the low end of CBOs range is zero.
Also, as a matter of arithmetic, the increase is not $15/hr. It is $15 X 1.0765, which is the employer’s FICA/Medicare/Medicaid match.
that has never been factored in when stating minumum wage.
from the mid 1950s until the mid-1980s, the minimum wage was ~$10 (in today’s dollars). then it started slipping, and now it’s at $7.25 (since 2009).
it needs to go up.
The CBO puts the job losses somewhere between 1.3 million and 4 million at the high end.
and, from your link, the low end of CBOs range is zero.
Now, you may say, “Fine McKTex, but that isn’t evidence.” True, it’s simply math and logic applied to estimates and guesses of what the economy does in recessions and how a business operates.
Now, you may say, “Fine McKTex, but that isn’t evidence.” True, it’s simply math and logic applied to estimates and guesses of what the economy does in recessions and how a business operates.
Also, as a matter of arithmetic, the increase is not $15/hr. It is $15 X 1.0765, which is the employer’s FICA/Medicare/Medicaid match.
to be strictly accurate, the *increase* is $7.75 x 1.0765, or about $8.35.
the current federal minimum wage of $7.25 was put in place in 2009, which makes this the longest period of time without a federal minimum wage increase since a federal minimum wage was instituted in 1938. so, $7.25 to $15 is a big jump, but it’s been while.
maybe we should have been bumping this up little by little over the last 12 years. it wouldn’t have been such a shock.
why didn’t that happen?
try viewing a one third mandatory wage increase as if there was a sudden tax hike on people that causes their housing and food costs to increase by one third overnight.
FWIW, the cost of living has risen about 25%, in constant dollars, from 2009 to now. so, not overnight, but over the time from when the current minimum wage was set, until now, people’s housing, food, etc – whatever goes into the cost of living – has gone up by a quarter.
if $15 doesn’t float your boat, pick a number. $12? $10?
whatever number you pick, if we raise the minimum wage, there will be downsides. and, if we *don’t* adjust the minimum wage, there will be downsides.
people need to eat, they need someplace to live, they need clothes and shoes, they need to go to the doctor, they need to get from one place to another.
$7.25 doesn’t get that done.
Also, as a matter of arithmetic, the increase is not $15/hr. It is $15 X 1.0765, which is the employer’s FICA/Medicare/Medicaid match.
to be strictly accurate, the *increase* is $7.75 x 1.0765, or about $8.35.
the current federal minimum wage of $7.25 was put in place in 2009, which makes this the longest period of time without a federal minimum wage increase since a federal minimum wage was instituted in 1938. so, $7.25 to $15 is a big jump, but it’s been while.
maybe we should have been bumping this up little by little over the last 12 years. it wouldn’t have been such a shock.
why didn’t that happen?
try viewing a one third mandatory wage increase as if there was a sudden tax hike on people that causes their housing and food costs to increase by one third overnight.
FWIW, the cost of living has risen about 25%, in constant dollars, from 2009 to now. so, not overnight, but over the time from when the current minimum wage was set, until now, people’s housing, food, etc – whatever goes into the cost of living – has gone up by a quarter.
if $15 doesn’t float your boat, pick a number. $12? $10?
whatever number you pick, if we raise the minimum wage, there will be downsides. and, if we *don’t* adjust the minimum wage, there will be downsides.
people need to eat, they need someplace to live, they need clothes and shoes, they need to go to the doctor, they need to get from one place to another.
$7.25 doesn’t get that done.
FWIW, the CBO study.
Also FWIW, the CBO’s median estimate on number of jobs lost if we moved minimum wage to $15 by 2025 is about 1.3 million, or about 0.8% of the workforce.
It’s worth mentioning that, at $7.25/hour, a family unit typically needs to have multiple full-time jobs in play to keep their heads above water. Multiple jobs per person, multiple people working, or both. So “jobs lost” doesn’t always mean “people unemployed”.
I’m going to go out on a limb and say that some of those people would be quite happy to be able to live on one or two fewer jobs. A parent in a family with school-age kids could stay home, or a parent that currently never sees their kids would get some family time. Or a young adult still living at home could get some education or training, rather than jump right into the work force at the entry level, because the family needs the $$$$. Right?
Everybody’s gotta eat.
FWIW, the CBO study.
Also FWIW, the CBO’s median estimate on number of jobs lost if we moved minimum wage to $15 by 2025 is about 1.3 million, or about 0.8% of the workforce.
It’s worth mentioning that, at $7.25/hour, a family unit typically needs to have multiple full-time jobs in play to keep their heads above water. Multiple jobs per person, multiple people working, or both. So “jobs lost” doesn’t always mean “people unemployed”.
I’m going to go out on a limb and say that some of those people would be quite happy to be able to live on one or two fewer jobs. A parent in a family with school-age kids could stay home, or a parent that currently never sees their kids would get some family time. Or a young adult still living at home could get some education or training, rather than jump right into the work force at the entry level, because the family needs the $$$$. Right?
Everybody’s gotta eat.
if $15 doesn’t float your boat, pick a number. $12? $10?
What do you do about people who don’t qualify for those levels of pay? Most employers are not going to engage in charity by paying people more than their productivity. They will expect a new hire to hit the ground running. No handholding and babysitting until the employee gets up to speed.
if $15 doesn’t float your boat, pick a number. $12? $10?
What do you do about people who don’t qualify for those levels of pay? Most employers are not going to engage in charity by paying people more than their productivity. They will expect a new hire to hit the ground running. No handholding and babysitting until the employee gets up to speed.
What do you do about people who don’t qualify for those levels of pay?
I don’t know, Charles. What do we do about people who “don’t qualify” for $7.25/hour?
Situations that require someone to “hit the ground running” with no expectation of “handholding or babysitting” – which is to say, training and education in the job – are normally jobs that most folks can do without a ton of training, or are jobs that command more than minimum wage.
All of the hypothetical “yeah, but what about..” stuff is interesting but $7.25 is not enough money to live on. In many places, it’s already been superseded by higher local minimum wages.
A bump up to $15 over five years is basically an exercise in playing catch-up. If $15 is simply a bridge too far, suggest another number.
What do you do about people who don’t qualify for those levels of pay?
I don’t know, Charles. What do we do about people who “don’t qualify” for $7.25/hour?
Situations that require someone to “hit the ground running” with no expectation of “handholding or babysitting” – which is to say, training and education in the job – are normally jobs that most folks can do without a ton of training, or are jobs that command more than minimum wage.
All of the hypothetical “yeah, but what about..” stuff is interesting but $7.25 is not enough money to live on. In many places, it’s already been superseded by higher local minimum wages.
A bump up to $15 over five years is basically an exercise in playing catch-up. If $15 is simply a bridge too far, suggest another number.
If your business model depends on paying people insufficient wages, maybe you need a new business model. People come up with new ways of doing things and new things to do all the time. If they all have to deal with the same minimum wage, they’re on even footing to compete for revenue in whatever way they can come up with. I don’t really give a sh*t either way if Mickey D’s puts in kiosks. Taking people’s fast-food orders isn’t something humans need to do to thrive as a species. Put the effort elsewhere.
Maybe all this talk of minimum wage should just go away and be replaced with talk of a guaranteed minimum income and/or a jobs guarantee that would render the minimum wage moot. Pay people to plant some f**king trees instead to standing at a counter taking orders for sh*tty cheeseburgers.
If your business model depends on paying people insufficient wages, maybe you need a new business model. People come up with new ways of doing things and new things to do all the time. If they all have to deal with the same minimum wage, they’re on even footing to compete for revenue in whatever way they can come up with. I don’t really give a sh*t either way if Mickey D’s puts in kiosks. Taking people’s fast-food orders isn’t something humans need to do to thrive as a species. Put the effort elsewhere.
Maybe all this talk of minimum wage should just go away and be replaced with talk of a guaranteed minimum income and/or a jobs guarantee that would render the minimum wage moot. Pay people to plant some f**king trees instead to standing at a counter taking orders for sh*tty cheeseburgers.
Pre-COVID, so we don’t have to tease those effects apart:
https://www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/jobs/2019/07/18/minimum-wage-increase-arizona-has-had-positive-effects-grand-canyon-institute-study-finds/1745202001/
Not yet $15, but increasing. My siblings in AZ thought this was going to be the end of the world. “Oh, noes! The economy is going to crash!” Not so much.
Pre-COVID, so we don’t have to tease those effects apart:
https://www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/jobs/2019/07/18/minimum-wage-increase-arizona-has-had-positive-effects-grand-canyon-institute-study-finds/1745202001/
Not yet $15, but increasing. My siblings in AZ thought this was going to be the end of the world. “Oh, noes! The economy is going to crash!” Not so much.
I don’t know, Charles. What do we do about people who “don’t qualify” for $7.25/hour?
Let them live in their mother’s basement, mooch of family and friends, sell drugs, move to San Francisco to live on the streets…
I don’t know, Charles. What do we do about people who “don’t qualify” for $7.25/hour?
Let them live in their mother’s basement, mooch of family and friends, sell drugs, move to San Francisco to live on the streets…
The CBO puts the job losses somewhere between 1.3 million and 4 million at the high end.s
Apologies that I haven’t gotten to read the CBO study yet. But my instant question would be: Is that job loss starting from now? Or starting from what we had a year ago (i.e. pre-covid)?
The CBO puts the job losses somewhere between 1.3 million and 4 million at the high end.s
Apologies that I haven’t gotten to read the CBO study yet. But my instant question would be: Is that job loss starting from now? Or starting from what we had a year ago (i.e. pre-covid)?
Let them live in their mother’s basement, mooch of family and friends, sell drugs, move to San Francisco to live on the streets.
The libertarian paradise revealed.
Let them live in their mother’s basement, mooch of family and friends, sell drugs, move to San Francisco to live on the streets.
The libertarian paradise revealed.
economists who actually study this matter pretty much agree that raising the minimum wage does not have a big impact on employment. But data is for nebbishes I guess.
economists who actually study this matter pretty much agree that raising the minimum wage does not have a big impact on employment. But data is for nebbishes I guess.
The libertarian paradise revealed.
Hardly. This is what people who support a minimum wage apparently want them to do.
The libertarian paradise revealed.
Hardly. This is what people who support a minimum wage apparently want them to do.
economists who actually study this matter pretty much agree that raising the minimum wage does not have a big impact on employment.
Then raise it to $30 an hour.
economists who actually study this matter pretty much agree that raising the minimum wage does not have a big impact on employment.
Then raise it to $30 an hour.
What do you do about people who don’t qualify for those levels of pay?
train them in how to handle a lifetime of imposter syndrome.
What do you do about people who don’t qualify for those levels of pay?
train them in how to handle a lifetime of imposter syndrome.
Then raise it to $30 an hour.
Exactly. And make health care coverage and 401K matching mandatory for all employers. Economics is fun and easy. Just like running a business. All you need is someone to force you to do stuff you can’t afford and then watch how awesome you become.
We should also double all teacher and college professor salaries. The good news is, doing so will not affect education costs. Hell, it might bring them down.
I think I’m starting to get the hang of it.
Then raise it to $30 an hour.
Exactly. And make health care coverage and 401K matching mandatory for all employers. Economics is fun and easy. Just like running a business. All you need is someone to force you to do stuff you can’t afford and then watch how awesome you become.
We should also double all teacher and college professor salaries. The good news is, doing so will not affect education costs. Hell, it might bring them down.
I think I’m starting to get the hang of it.
likewise, set taxes to zero and make it a crime to be without a gun at all times.
the US won’t turn into Somalia. not a chance.
likewise, set taxes to zero and make it a crime to be without a gun at all times.
the US won’t turn into Somalia. not a chance.
Good to know how important getting the schools reopened really is.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/01/29/elberton-georgia-vaccine-teachers-suspended/?itid=lk_inline_manual_69
Summary: giving vaccinations to teachers, school bus dtivets, and cafeteria workers cost a Georgia county its supply going forward.
Good to know how important getting the schools reopened really is.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/01/29/elberton-georgia-vaccine-teachers-suspended/?itid=lk_inline_manual_69
Summary: giving vaccinations to teachers, school bus dtivets, and cafeteria workers cost a Georgia county its supply going forward.
likewise, set taxes to zero and make it a crime to be without a gun at all times.
the US won’t turn into Somalia. not a chance.
Again, we find ourselves on the same page. A great way to start a weekend! Like supply and demand, there is no such thing as cause and effect.
It’s a win, win, win situation. More of everything for everyone. I may stop working.
likewise, set taxes to zero and make it a crime to be without a gun at all times.
the US won’t turn into Somalia. not a chance.
Again, we find ourselves on the same page. A great way to start a weekend! Like supply and demand, there is no such thing as cause and effect.
It’s a win, win, win situation. More of everything for everyone. I may stop working.
Why did Henry Ford pay his people $5 a day? That was about double the pay at that time for typical work.
Double.
What happened when he did that? Did he go out of business? Why not?
Why did Henry Ford pay his people $5 a day? That was about double the pay at that time for typical work.
Double.
What happened when he did that? Did he go out of business? Why not?
Ford and the $5 day.
Henry Ford, communist
I’m being sarcastic here, but folks arguing for the simplistic model of “higher pay means company goes broke” need to account for Ford’s experience, and many similar experiences.
If you put money into the hands of people who aren’t already wealthy, they spend it. Most of it, if not all of it, depending on how close to the edge of things they are.
That money gets spent on goods and services and turns into income for other people and other businesses.
Any proposal I’ve seen to raise the minimum wage, does so over a period of years, typically five years. There is no overnight shock to employers, it happens over time. And it happens over a time scale and a cadence that is not at all unusual in the history of minimum wage policy in this country.
The federal minimum wage has been increased 29 times since it was first instituted in 1938. That’s about once every 3 years. And that average includes a nine-year gap during the Reagan years, and a ten-year gap during W’s time in office. It was not infrequently raised on an annual basis.
It’s been 12 years at this point since the last increase. $7.25 an hour is not a realistic living wage anyplace in this country.
It’s time for it to be increased.
Ford and the $5 day.
Henry Ford, communist
I’m being sarcastic here, but folks arguing for the simplistic model of “higher pay means company goes broke” need to account for Ford’s experience, and many similar experiences.
If you put money into the hands of people who aren’t already wealthy, they spend it. Most of it, if not all of it, depending on how close to the edge of things they are.
That money gets spent on goods and services and turns into income for other people and other businesses.
Any proposal I’ve seen to raise the minimum wage, does so over a period of years, typically five years. There is no overnight shock to employers, it happens over time. And it happens over a time scale and a cadence that is not at all unusual in the history of minimum wage policy in this country.
The federal minimum wage has been increased 29 times since it was first instituted in 1938. That’s about once every 3 years. And that average includes a nine-year gap during the Reagan years, and a ten-year gap during W’s time in office. It was not infrequently raised on an annual basis.
It’s been 12 years at this point since the last increase. $7.25 an hour is not a realistic living wage anyplace in this country.
It’s time for it to be increased.
A little history may be enlightening. Start with the word: patent: “open to public inspection”
The history of British patent law ought to convince anyone that the whole thing is an abomination.
Patents developed as monopolies granted by kings, to raise money without imposing visible taxes. And industrial patents took off when Boulton and his money persuaded parliament to extend the patent on Watt’s steam engine: this, and competing patents, crippled development and deployment of the technology, which took off only when the patents expired. Until then, it was impossible for anyone, Watt included, to make the best steam engine the state of the art would otherwise have allowed.
A little history may be enlightening. Start with the word: patent: “open to public inspection”
The history of British patent law ought to convince anyone that the whole thing is an abomination.
Patents developed as monopolies granted by kings, to raise money without imposing visible taxes. And industrial patents took off when Boulton and his money persuaded parliament to extend the patent on Watt’s steam engine: this, and competing patents, crippled development and deployment of the technology, which took off only when the patents expired. Until then, it was impossible for anyone, Watt included, to make the best steam engine the state of the art would otherwise have allowed.
Start with the word: patent
At the risk of sparking a gazillion comments, I’d like to make a distinction between patents and copyright.
for a lot of working artists – musicians, composers, writers, visual artists – copyright means they get paid for their work. this is especially so now, in the digital age, when duplication of work is trivially easy.
I’m not talking about Disney or Microsoft, I’m talking about individuals whose life’s work is making stuff we all use and enjoy.
Just wanted to put that out there.
Start with the word: patent
At the risk of sparking a gazillion comments, I’d like to make a distinction between patents and copyright.
for a lot of working artists – musicians, composers, writers, visual artists – copyright means they get paid for their work. this is especially so now, in the digital age, when duplication of work is trivially easy.
I’m not talking about Disney or Microsoft, I’m talking about individuals whose life’s work is making stuff we all use and enjoy.
Just wanted to put that out there.
Like supply and demand, there is no such thing as cause and effect.
unless Jews and space lasers are involved.
Like supply and demand, there is no such thing as cause and effect.
unless Jews and space lasers are involved.
especially so now, in the digital age, when duplication of work is trivially easy.
i’m appalled at how many full albums are just sitting there on YouTube.
or maybe i’m just one of those dinosaurs who still buy every record i listen to because i think it’s important for musicians to get paid.
especially so now, in the digital age, when duplication of work is trivially easy.
i’m appalled at how many full albums are just sitting there on YouTube.
or maybe i’m just one of those dinosaurs who still buy every record i listen to because i think it’s important for musicians to get paid.
If you put money into the hands of people who aren’t already wealthy, they spend it. Most of it, if not all of it, depending on how close to the edge of things they are.
That money gets spent on goods and services and turns into income for other people and other businesses.
I assure you that if I were to double my payroll tomorrow, I would not make more money. Ford mass-produced the Model-T and did so using what was at the time an unusually efficient assembly line process. The combination of mass production and production efficiencies allowed him to spread his labor costs over a higher number of units, reducing the labor burden per unit. I sell legal services by the hour. My cost per hour are a known quantity. I can’t make a day any longer than 24 hours. I can’t ask professionals to work more than 9-10 hours a day Monday through Thursday (Friday’s tend to be shorter days) absent emergencies or during trial. I could get more customers if I lowered rates, but I can’t lower my cost of services. So, the Ford business model–which worked for a while but not forever–doesn’t translate to the service sector very well and doesn’t translate to many manufacturing ventures either because, unlike the early Model T days, there is too much competition holding prices down.
An economist could do a much better job of explaining this, but the punch line is, Ford was a one-off that worked out well because of timing and the fact that there weren’t a half dozen other car manufacturers offering a comparable product.
If you put money into the hands of people who aren’t already wealthy, they spend it. Most of it, if not all of it, depending on how close to the edge of things they are.
That money gets spent on goods and services and turns into income for other people and other businesses.
I assure you that if I were to double my payroll tomorrow, I would not make more money. Ford mass-produced the Model-T and did so using what was at the time an unusually efficient assembly line process. The combination of mass production and production efficiencies allowed him to spread his labor costs over a higher number of units, reducing the labor burden per unit. I sell legal services by the hour. My cost per hour are a known quantity. I can’t make a day any longer than 24 hours. I can’t ask professionals to work more than 9-10 hours a day Monday through Thursday (Friday’s tend to be shorter days) absent emergencies or during trial. I could get more customers if I lowered rates, but I can’t lower my cost of services. So, the Ford business model–which worked for a while but not forever–doesn’t translate to the service sector very well and doesn’t translate to many manufacturing ventures either because, unlike the early Model T days, there is too much competition holding prices down.
An economist could do a much better job of explaining this, but the punch line is, Ford was a one-off that worked out well because of timing and the fact that there weren’t a half dozen other car manufacturers offering a comparable product.
unless Jews and space lasers are involved.
So true.
unless Jews and space lasers are involved.
So true.
One of the main reasons Henry Ford increased wages was because that the nine-hour shifts on his assembly lines were so mind-numbingly boring his plants were experiencing huge, and expensive, labor turnovers. And he had a 30% profit margin that made it easy for him to do so.
“So in 1914, Henry Ford announced that none of his workers would earn less than $5 a day working eight-hour shifts. He also offered eighteen paid days off for vacation and illness, an uncommon practice at the time, especially for unskilled workers.
The pay increase was set up as a profit-sharing system rather than a simple wage, with conditions attached. Workers still made their original base wages for merely fulfilling their jobs, but those who met certain personal requirements could earn a maximum of $2.70 per day extra, allowing the raise to apply equally to all workers, even those who made more than the starting wages. The strings Ford attached to the raise are a common source of criticism, but it is difficult to understand why. Workers who did not want to meet the conditions could still find employment at the factory at the original wages and still enjoy a slightly shorter workday, and the conditions Ford attached to the bonus included things like contributing to a personal savings account and not physically abusing your family. Of course, those who opposed these strings could still seek employment elsewhere, just as they had already been doing.”
Henry Ford Did More for Workers than Unions Did
One of the main reasons Henry Ford increased wages was because that the nine-hour shifts on his assembly lines were so mind-numbingly boring his plants were experiencing huge, and expensive, labor turnovers. And he had a 30% profit margin that made it easy for him to do so.
“So in 1914, Henry Ford announced that none of his workers would earn less than $5 a day working eight-hour shifts. He also offered eighteen paid days off for vacation and illness, an uncommon practice at the time, especially for unskilled workers.
The pay increase was set up as a profit-sharing system rather than a simple wage, with conditions attached. Workers still made their original base wages for merely fulfilling their jobs, but those who met certain personal requirements could earn a maximum of $2.70 per day extra, allowing the raise to apply equally to all workers, even those who made more than the starting wages. The strings Ford attached to the raise are a common source of criticism, but it is difficult to understand why. Workers who did not want to meet the conditions could still find employment at the factory at the original wages and still enjoy a slightly shorter workday, and the conditions Ford attached to the bonus included things like contributing to a personal savings account and not physically abusing your family. Of course, those who opposed these strings could still seek employment elsewhere, just as they had already been doing.”
Henry Ford Did More for Workers than Unions Did
I assure you that if I were to double my payroll tomorrow, I would not make more money.
McK, I could be wrong, but my guess is that there aren’t many, if any, people on your payroll making $7.25 an hour.
And if there were, and you bumped them up to $15, you probably wouldn’t make any more money, but you also probably wouldn’t make much, if any, less.
But the guy in your area who owns the grocery store, or the auto repair shop, or the clothing or shoe store, might see a little uptick in their numbers.
At the time Ford bumped wages to $5 a day, there were a lot of companies making cars, probably more than there are today. Ford did particularly well because his innovations with the assembly line let him make cars faster and cheaper.
All while paying his people twice what everybody else did.
and Ford is not the only guy who ever hit on the bright idea of paying his people well.
I assure you that if I were to double my payroll tomorrow, I would not make more money.
McK, I could be wrong, but my guess is that there aren’t many, if any, people on your payroll making $7.25 an hour.
And if there were, and you bumped them up to $15, you probably wouldn’t make any more money, but you also probably wouldn’t make much, if any, less.
But the guy in your area who owns the grocery store, or the auto repair shop, or the clothing or shoe store, might see a little uptick in their numbers.
At the time Ford bumped wages to $5 a day, there were a lot of companies making cars, probably more than there are today. Ford did particularly well because his innovations with the assembly line let him make cars faster and cheaper.
All while paying his people twice what everybody else did.
and Ford is not the only guy who ever hit on the bright idea of paying his people well.
But the guy in your area who owns the grocery store, or the auto repair shop, or the clothing or shoe store, might see a little uptick in their numbers.
I don’t see how raising one’s cost of labor would cause a profit increase unless it made people more productive.
The key–and you note this–for Ford was making a high number of cars faster and cheaper. This put him ahead of his competition AND, to repeat myself, his labor cost per unit was low. The only way a business can do what Ford did is to make high demand products so efficiently, i.e. with a smaller, better paid work force, that cost per unit allows for either a higher profit margin or the sales volume is so high, a lower margin still returns a high gross number.
Math will always drive the bottom line.
But the guy in your area who owns the grocery store, or the auto repair shop, or the clothing or shoe store, might see a little uptick in their numbers.
I don’t see how raising one’s cost of labor would cause a profit increase unless it made people more productive.
The key–and you note this–for Ford was making a high number of cars faster and cheaper. This put him ahead of his competition AND, to repeat myself, his labor cost per unit was low. The only way a business can do what Ford did is to make high demand products so efficiently, i.e. with a smaller, better paid work force, that cost per unit allows for either a higher profit margin or the sales volume is so high, a lower margin still returns a high gross number.
Math will always drive the bottom line.
One of the main reasons Henry Ford increased wages was because that the nine-hour shifts on his assembly lines were so mind-numbingly boring his plants were experiencing huge, and expensive, labor turnovers.
absolutely correct.
And he had a 30% profit margin that made it easy for him to do so.
and everybody told him that paying $5 a day was gonna go broke and destroy the company. just like you and McK are saying a raise in minimum wage is gonna make all of America’s small businesses go out of business.
But it didn’t. And that wouldn’t, just like it didn’t the last 29 times we increased the minimum wage.
$7.25 is not enough money for people to live on. If you.want a carve out for teenagers, tipped employees, or whatever other special case you like, I have no particular problem.
For adults who are responsible for paying their own bills and those of whoever is dependent on them, $7.25 is not enough money to live on.
Seriously, you guys talk about this stuff like you’re the only people who have any experience in a business environment. You’re not. Nobody here is a simpleton. We all understand that a lot of small businesses run on tight margins, we all understand that most small business people are not making a ton of money. Some of us have direct personal experience of working in or even owning and running small mom & pops. We get the gist of your argument.
But $7.25 an hour is not enough money to live on. The minimum wage hasn’t moved in 12 years, which is the longest period that it’s stayed the same since it was instituted.
It’s too low. It needs to be raised. If you don’t like $15, pick another number. If five years is too fast, do it in 7.
Run the numbers, do the projections, and figure out an equitable plan.
But $7.25 ain’t enough to live on.
One of the main reasons Henry Ford increased wages was because that the nine-hour shifts on his assembly lines were so mind-numbingly boring his plants were experiencing huge, and expensive, labor turnovers.
absolutely correct.
And he had a 30% profit margin that made it easy for him to do so.
and everybody told him that paying $5 a day was gonna go broke and destroy the company. just like you and McK are saying a raise in minimum wage is gonna make all of America’s small businesses go out of business.
But it didn’t. And that wouldn’t, just like it didn’t the last 29 times we increased the minimum wage.
$7.25 is not enough money for people to live on. If you.want a carve out for teenagers, tipped employees, or whatever other special case you like, I have no particular problem.
For adults who are responsible for paying their own bills and those of whoever is dependent on them, $7.25 is not enough money to live on.
Seriously, you guys talk about this stuff like you’re the only people who have any experience in a business environment. You’re not. Nobody here is a simpleton. We all understand that a lot of small businesses run on tight margins, we all understand that most small business people are not making a ton of money. Some of us have direct personal experience of working in or even owning and running small mom & pops. We get the gist of your argument.
But $7.25 an hour is not enough money to live on. The minimum wage hasn’t moved in 12 years, which is the longest period that it’s stayed the same since it was instituted.
It’s too low. It needs to be raised. If you don’t like $15, pick another number. If five years is too fast, do it in 7.
Run the numbers, do the projections, and figure out an equitable plan.
But $7.25 ain’t enough to live on.
If raising the minimum wage to $15 doubles your payroll and no one else’s, you’re living in some strange parallel universe. But at least you couldn’t have fired many people.
If raising the minimum wage to $15 doubles your payroll and no one else’s, you’re living in some strange parallel universe. But at least you couldn’t have fired many people.
People making the current federal minimum wage make up less than 2% of the employed. And most of them are teenagers living in low cost of living southern states.
People making the current federal minimum wage make up less than 2% of the employed. And most of them are teenagers living in low cost of living southern states.
How many people make <$15/hr?
How many people make <$15/hr?
I don’t see how raising one’s cost of labor would cause a profit increase unless it made people more productive.
I will try to explain.
Let’s assume you have 10 people on your payroll who you pay $7.25 an hour. Their annual gross, absent other sources of revenue, is about $14.5K.
You raise their pay to $15 an hour. Their annual gross is now $30K.
What will they do with the money? They’ll probably spend it. Where will they spend it? Probably not on luxury goods. Probably they will spend it, in their community, on food, shelter, clothing, and transportation.
They will buy stuff they didn’t buy before, because they couldn’t afford it. And now, they can.
And, in fact, productivity is a relevant factor. Charles notes, correctly, that Ford’s motivation for raising his employee’s pay was primarily to keep them from quitting. That is quite right.
If you pay people more, it motivates them to work harder, be more loyal to you, the employer, and generally be more productive, than if you pay them less. Even though you are probably not dealing with a minimum wage workforce, I’m sure you have noticed this as well with your employees.
If you lowball them all the time, you will begin to get lowball quality of work. Even from the same people. And at some point, they’ll get sick of it and leave.
You appear to want to come at this like it’s some kind of algebra problem, and to some degree it is. But it’s also about people, and how they respond to how they are treated, and how they respond to the conditions that are available to them.
In any case, no matter how you slice it, 40 hours a week at $7.25 an hour is not enough to live on, for pretty much anybody. It means you either have to work multiple jobs, or more people in your family have to work, all of which exact their own costs, financial and otherwise.
We’ve been at $7.25 for 12 years, during which time the cost of living has gone up about 25%.
So if we’re gonna have a minimum wage at all, it should go up.
I don’t see how raising one’s cost of labor would cause a profit increase unless it made people more productive.
I will try to explain.
Let’s assume you have 10 people on your payroll who you pay $7.25 an hour. Their annual gross, absent other sources of revenue, is about $14.5K.
You raise their pay to $15 an hour. Their annual gross is now $30K.
What will they do with the money? They’ll probably spend it. Where will they spend it? Probably not on luxury goods. Probably they will spend it, in their community, on food, shelter, clothing, and transportation.
They will buy stuff they didn’t buy before, because they couldn’t afford it. And now, they can.
And, in fact, productivity is a relevant factor. Charles notes, correctly, that Ford’s motivation for raising his employee’s pay was primarily to keep them from quitting. That is quite right.
If you pay people more, it motivates them to work harder, be more loyal to you, the employer, and generally be more productive, than if you pay them less. Even though you are probably not dealing with a minimum wage workforce, I’m sure you have noticed this as well with your employees.
If you lowball them all the time, you will begin to get lowball quality of work. Even from the same people. And at some point, they’ll get sick of it and leave.
You appear to want to come at this like it’s some kind of algebra problem, and to some degree it is. But it’s also about people, and how they respond to how they are treated, and how they respond to the conditions that are available to them.
In any case, no matter how you slice it, 40 hours a week at $7.25 an hour is not enough to live on, for pretty much anybody. It means you either have to work multiple jobs, or more people in your family have to work, all of which exact their own costs, financial and otherwise.
We’ve been at $7.25 for 12 years, during which time the cost of living has gone up about 25%.
So if we’re gonna have a minimum wage at all, it should go up.
How many people make <$15/hr?
Not many, unless they are teenagers. As people get older, they make more money. Check out this link.
https://smartasset.com/retirement/the-average-salary-by-age
Pay average is $506/week for 16-19 year olds, which is $25,300/yr, $12.65/hr (at 2000 hours a year).
I’m missing the sense of urgency.
How many people make <$15/hr?
Not many, unless they are teenagers. As people get older, they make more money. Check out this link.
https://smartasset.com/retirement/the-average-salary-by-age
Pay average is $506/week for 16-19 year olds, which is $25,300/yr, $12.65/hr (at 2000 hours a year).
I’m missing the sense of urgency.
I’m missing the sense of urgency.
Ever tried living on $25K a year? Let alone supporting a family?
I’m missing the sense of urgency.
Ever tried living on $25K a year? Let alone supporting a family?
conversely, I’m missing why bringing the nominal minimum up to something closer to reality is a problem.
conversely, I’m missing why bringing the nominal minimum up to something closer to reality is a problem.
How many people make <$15/hr?
In a number of states, $15 is very close to the median hourly wage.
How many people make <$15/hr?
In a number of states, $15 is very close to the median hourly wage.
Speaking of the relationship between minimum wage and productivity:
https://cepr.net/this-is-what-minimum-wage-would-be-if-it-kept-pace-with-productivity/
Speaking of the relationship between minimum wage and productivity:
https://cepr.net/this-is-what-minimum-wage-would-be-if-it-kept-pace-with-productivity/
“median” means half the people earn less.
“median” means half the people earn less.
Math will always drive the bottom line.
Like hell.
Research has shown since the early 20th century that productivity drops off sharply around 50 hours/per week. Error rates go up, requiring more quality control intervention to maintain standards, and a cascade on down. Just how businesses ever tell people accustomed to working more than 50 hours to go home, they’re costing the firm money and quality?
There are documentable physical harms suffered by people who have to keep changing their work schedule, and who are uncertain about their future schedules, on top of the difficulties in arranging everything from child care to medical appointments to simply having social time.How many firms make a solid commitment to schedules that accommodate people’s preferences based on their knowledge of their own internal rhythms, and to as little schedule changing as possible?
How many firms can explain and back up with data whether their sick leave policy ends up costing them more or less than more generous approaches?
And on and on and on. The exercise of hierarchical power (and inequality in the workplace is another well-documented source of stress leading to inefficiency as well as poor health) takes precedence over actual efficiency and therefore financial gain a lot.
Also, all of the above is on top of/alongside shit like this:
https://www.bustle.com/p/a-new-study-on-name-discrimination-suggests-names-signaling-race-are-also-linked-to-social-status-2348497
Math will always drive the bottom line.
Like hell.
Research has shown since the early 20th century that productivity drops off sharply around 50 hours/per week. Error rates go up, requiring more quality control intervention to maintain standards, and a cascade on down. Just how businesses ever tell people accustomed to working more than 50 hours to go home, they’re costing the firm money and quality?
There are documentable physical harms suffered by people who have to keep changing their work schedule, and who are uncertain about their future schedules, on top of the difficulties in arranging everything from child care to medical appointments to simply having social time.How many firms make a solid commitment to schedules that accommodate people’s preferences based on their knowledge of their own internal rhythms, and to as little schedule changing as possible?
How many firms can explain and back up with data whether their sick leave policy ends up costing them more or less than more generous approaches?
And on and on and on. The exercise of hierarchical power (and inequality in the workplace is another well-documented source of stress leading to inefficiency as well as poor health) takes precedence over actual efficiency and therefore financial gain a lot.
Also, all of the above is on top of/alongside shit like this:
https://www.bustle.com/p/a-new-study-on-name-discrimination-suggests-names-signaling-race-are-also-linked-to-social-status-2348497
People making the current federal minimum wage make up less than 2% of the employed. And most of them are teenagers living in low cost of living southern states.
This seems wrong. BLS stats have teenagers total (not just those in the south) as 38% of all workers making the federal minimum and 15% of those making less than the federal minimum.
https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2018/pdf/home.pdf
People making the current federal minimum wage make up less than 2% of the employed. And most of them are teenagers living in low cost of living southern states.
This seems wrong. BLS stats have teenagers total (not just those in the south) as 38% of all workers making the federal minimum and 15% of those making less than the federal minimum.
https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2018/pdf/home.pdf
Ever tried living on $25K a year? Let alone supporting a family?
Did you note that the 25K/yr cohort is 16-19 years old? Did you read the link? Did you note that people make more as they get older?
I’m missing why bringing the nominal minimum up to something closer to reality is a problem.
What do you mean by “closer to reality”? ISTM, if teenagers are averaging $12.65/hr and everyone else is already over $15/hr, then the law is unnecessary. Higher up in this thread, things were sounding pretty dire. The data don’t back that up.
Ever tried living on $25K a year? Let alone supporting a family?
Did you note that the 25K/yr cohort is 16-19 years old? Did you read the link? Did you note that people make more as they get older?
I’m missing why bringing the nominal minimum up to something closer to reality is a problem.
What do you mean by “closer to reality”? ISTM, if teenagers are averaging $12.65/hr and everyone else is already over $15/hr, then the law is unnecessary. Higher up in this thread, things were sounding pretty dire. The data don’t back that up.
What do you mean by “closer to reality”?
If, in fact, nobody’s actually making $7.25 except for teenagers living at home, then $7.25 is not a meaningful minimum wage.
That’s what I mean.
Higher up in this thread, things were sounding pretty dire. The data don’t back that up.
And conversely, higher up in this thread, raising the minimum wage was going to put all of the mom and pop operations in America out of business.
Which, if everyone is actually already making $12+ an hour, is likely not the case.
Pick which way you want to go.
What do you mean by “closer to reality”?
If, in fact, nobody’s actually making $7.25 except for teenagers living at home, then $7.25 is not a meaningful minimum wage.
That’s what I mean.
Higher up in this thread, things were sounding pretty dire. The data don’t back that up.
And conversely, higher up in this thread, raising the minimum wage was going to put all of the mom and pop operations in America out of business.
Which, if everyone is actually already making $12+ an hour, is likely not the case.
Pick which way you want to go.
so, very few people make minimum wage, but raising it is going to wipe out the small business economy? even though it hasn’t ever done that when it’s been raised before.
so, very few people make minimum wage, but raising it is going to wipe out the small business economy? even though it hasn’t ever done that when it’s been raised before.
Math will always drive the bottom line.
Like hell.
I think you’re taking my statement out of context. I was referring to the seller’s cost of goods or services and how that drives profit margin assuming a market.
Math will always drive the bottom line.
Like hell.
I think you’re taking my statement out of context. I was referring to the seller’s cost of goods or services and how that drives profit margin assuming a market.
This seems wrong.
I think my figure doesn’t include people making less than $7.25 legally or otherwise.
This seems wrong.
I think my figure doesn’t include people making less than $7.25 legally or otherwise.
Teenagers were still less than a majority even if you exclude that group.
Teenagers were still less than a majority even if you exclude that group.
so, very few people make minimum wage, but raising it is going to wipe out the small business economy? even though it hasn’t ever done that when it’s been raised before
Actually, no, that’s not what is being said. First, virtually no one is trying to support a family on minimum wage. So, that’s a red herring. Second, minimum wage is entry level pay for beginners. Third, there are businesses that operate with high levels of young, entry level people who are paid less than $15/hr. What is the point of messing with their operation? Fourth, in some rural areas, the local economies depend on lower wages to allow for more employment–most of East Texas qualifies. People don’t make a lot of money but they don’t need a lot of money. Forcing a wage hike in those economies makes thing worse, not better.
so, very few people make minimum wage, but raising it is going to wipe out the small business economy? even though it hasn’t ever done that when it’s been raised before
Actually, no, that’s not what is being said. First, virtually no one is trying to support a family on minimum wage. So, that’s a red herring. Second, minimum wage is entry level pay for beginners. Third, there are businesses that operate with high levels of young, entry level people who are paid less than $15/hr. What is the point of messing with their operation? Fourth, in some rural areas, the local economies depend on lower wages to allow for more employment–most of East Texas qualifies. People don’t make a lot of money but they don’t need a lot of money. Forcing a wage hike in those economies makes thing worse, not better.
I’ve been entertaining myself looking at exemptions to minimum wage laws.
Switchboard operators who work for phone companies with less than 750 stations, for instance. I’m not sure I even understand what that means, or if such a position exists anymore.
Commissioned salespeople, which makes sense, and full time students. But also disabled people, companions for the elderly, newspaper employees of limited circulation newspapers, people who work at home making wreaths (!?!). Employees of religious organizations. All are exempt from minimum wage requirements.
There’s another equally odd and idiosyncratic list for people exempt from overtime requirements.
But perhaps most relevant for our modest mom & pop operators, if your business grosses less than $500K a year, you are exempt, you do not have to pay minimum wage.
I’ve been entertaining myself looking at exemptions to minimum wage laws.
Switchboard operators who work for phone companies with less than 750 stations, for instance. I’m not sure I even understand what that means, or if such a position exists anymore.
Commissioned salespeople, which makes sense, and full time students. But also disabled people, companions for the elderly, newspaper employees of limited circulation newspapers, people who work at home making wreaths (!?!). Employees of religious organizations. All are exempt from minimum wage requirements.
There’s another equally odd and idiosyncratic list for people exempt from overtime requirements.
But perhaps most relevant for our modest mom & pop operators, if your business grosses less than $500K a year, you are exempt, you do not have to pay minimum wage.
First, virtually no one is trying to support a family on minimum wage. So, that’s a red herring.
actual teenagers making min or less (16-19 yrs): 133,000.
25+yrs making min or less: 331,000
BLS.
Second, minimum wage is entry level pay for beginners.
it’s for people who work for people who don’t want to pay more.
Third, there are businesses that operate with high levels of young, entry level people who are paid less than $15/hr. What is the point of messing with their operation?
as russell suggested above, it would be easy to carve out an exception for teenagers living with their parents. if you’re a dependent minor, you get the ‘teenager’ wage.
Fourth, in some rural areas, the local economies depend on lower wages to allow for more employment
more employment at shit wages is a terrible way to live.
as a teenager, i worked three jobs at a time during the summers (to pay for college). it doesn’t leave much time for anything but passing out from exhaustion. sure i’d still have had to do it if there was a ‘teenager’ wage. but i know that it would be hell if i had a family.
First, virtually no one is trying to support a family on minimum wage. So, that’s a red herring.
actual teenagers making min or less (16-19 yrs): 133,000.
25+yrs making min or less: 331,000
BLS.
Second, minimum wage is entry level pay for beginners.
it’s for people who work for people who don’t want to pay more.
Third, there are businesses that operate with high levels of young, entry level people who are paid less than $15/hr. What is the point of messing with their operation?
as russell suggested above, it would be easy to carve out an exception for teenagers living with their parents. if you’re a dependent minor, you get the ‘teenager’ wage.
Fourth, in some rural areas, the local economies depend on lower wages to allow for more employment
more employment at shit wages is a terrible way to live.
as a teenager, i worked three jobs at a time during the summers (to pay for college). it doesn’t leave much time for anything but passing out from exhaustion. sure i’d still have had to do it if there was a ‘teenager’ wage. but i know that it would be hell if i had a family.
What Ford said about his employees buying the cars they produced was a load of old tosh.
What he was doing was paying an ‘efficiency wage’ well above the market-clearing wage. Staff turnover was costing him a lot of money in lost production, so it was good economics for him to pay up to retain staff.
Contrary to what libertarians seem to imagine, there are many markets where letting things find a clearing price is not best. And labour for hire is very obviously one of them.
The reason why there should be a minimum wage is the gross disparity of bargaining powers between low-paid workers and their employers. It is not human to require a person to choose between accepting whatever terms an employer may offer, and going without pay altogether.
Having said that, I suspect that $15 an hour is too high a minimum wage for rural areas of the USA. I may be wrong.
What Ford said about his employees buying the cars they produced was a load of old tosh.
What he was doing was paying an ‘efficiency wage’ well above the market-clearing wage. Staff turnover was costing him a lot of money in lost production, so it was good economics for him to pay up to retain staff.
Contrary to what libertarians seem to imagine, there are many markets where letting things find a clearing price is not best. And labour for hire is very obviously one of them.
The reason why there should be a minimum wage is the gross disparity of bargaining powers between low-paid workers and their employers. It is not human to require a person to choose between accepting whatever terms an employer may offer, and going without pay altogether.
Having said that, I suspect that $15 an hour is too high a minimum wage for rural areas of the USA. I may be wrong.
First, virtually no one is trying to support a family on minimum wage.
That’s likely so. But I suspect there are a lot of people trying to support a family who are earning in the $10-$12 / hour range, and whose lives would be materially improved by an increase to $15.
Home health aide, hospital orderly, office or hotel cleaner, line cook. Stuff like that.
First, virtually no one is trying to support a family on minimum wage.
That’s likely so. But I suspect there are a lot of people trying to support a family who are earning in the $10-$12 / hour range, and whose lives would be materially improved by an increase to $15.
Home health aide, hospital orderly, office or hotel cleaner, line cook. Stuff like that.
How many people make <$15/hr?
My best stab at this. About 83m hourly workers. $15/hour is bit above the 30th percentile, so about 25m.
Since teenagers apparently don’t count, there are 4.5m employed teenagers. Noted above, their median hourly wage is about $12.65, so maybe 3m making less than $15/hour.
That leaves about 22m non-teenagers that could benefit from a $15/hour minimum wage.
Cites below:
https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2019/pdf/home.pdf
https://www.epi.org/publication/swa-wages-2019/
https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat08.htm
How many people make <$15/hr?
My best stab at this. About 83m hourly workers. $15/hour is bit above the 30th percentile, so about 25m.
Since teenagers apparently don’t count, there are 4.5m employed teenagers. Noted above, their median hourly wage is about $12.65, so maybe 3m making less than $15/hour.
That leaves about 22m non-teenagers that could benefit from a $15/hour minimum wage.
Cites below:
https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2019/pdf/home.pdf
https://www.epi.org/publication/swa-wages-2019/
https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat08.htm
If, in fact, nobody’s actually making $7.25 except for teenagers living at home, then $7.25 is not a meaningful minimum wage.
Or, to put it another way, if nobody else is making only $7.25, then raising that minimum will have far less impact. Right?
If, in fact, nobody’s actually making $7.25 except for teenagers living at home, then $7.25 is not a meaningful minimum wage.
Or, to put it another way, if nobody else is making only $7.25, then raising that minimum will have far less impact. Right?
Having said that, I suspect that $15 an hour is too high a minimum wage for rural areas of the USA. I may be wrong.
Instead of a federal minimum wage, it could be left up to the states. And the states, if they wish, could leave it up to local jurisdictions.
Having said that, I suspect that $15 an hour is too high a minimum wage for rural areas of the USA. I may be wrong.
Instead of a federal minimum wage, it could be left up to the states. And the states, if they wish, could leave it up to local jurisdictions.
One more EPI link about low-wage workers and age:
https://www.epi.org/publication/wage-workers-older-88-percent-workers-benefit/
Our analysis of workers who would benefit from an increase in the minimum wage shows:
The average age of affected workers is 35 years old;
88 percent of all affected workers are at least 20 years old;
35.5 percent are at least 40 years old;
56 percent are women;
28 percent have children;
55 percent work full-time (35 hours per week or more);
44 percent have at least some college experience.
One more EPI link about low-wage workers and age:
https://www.epi.org/publication/wage-workers-older-88-percent-workers-benefit/
Our analysis of workers who would benefit from an increase in the minimum wage shows:
The average age of affected workers is 35 years old;
88 percent of all affected workers are at least 20 years old;
35.5 percent are at least 40 years old;
56 percent are women;
28 percent have children;
55 percent work full-time (35 hours per week or more);
44 percent have at least some college experience.
The link by Posted by: Ufficio | January 29, 2021 at 03:52 PM should not go unnoticed. I’m linking again. And thank you for the other more-recent links, Ufficio. Nous, also, too.
https://cepr.net/this-is-what-minimum-wage-would-be-if-it-kept-pace-with-productivity/
The link by Posted by: Ufficio | January 29, 2021 at 03:52 PM should not go unnoticed. I’m linking again. And thank you for the other more-recent links, Ufficio. Nous, also, too.
https://cepr.net/this-is-what-minimum-wage-would-be-if-it-kept-pace-with-productivity/
I imagine $24/hr would really explode some heads.
I imagine $24/hr would really explode some heads.
Arguments against matching minimum wage rates against aggregate productivity increases.
“Comparing the federal minimum wage to aggregate productivity trends in this way is problematic, though, for two reasons.
First, state, local, and city governments across the country already often set minimum wages significantly higher than the federal level, particularly in higher‐productivity regions.
…
But a more important flaw in linking the minimum wage to economy-wide labor productivity is that the productivity performance of all workers tells us little about the productivity performance of minimum wage workers. Different industries, different companies, and even different workers within organizations are likely to experience different productivity growth rates over time.
…
Yet labor productivity in the restaurant sector (often regarded as a better proxy for a typical minimum wage industry) rose by an average of just 0.4 percent per year between 1987 and 2017 (with unit labor costs increasing by 3.3 percent per year). If pegged instead to this productivity measure, the minimum wage would have increased by just 13 percent in real terms over three decades, rising to $8.25 by 2017.”
Bad Economic Justifications for Minimum Wage Hikes
It’s difficult to increase productivity in the labor-intensive service sector where so many people affected by minimum wage rates work.
Arguments against matching minimum wage rates against aggregate productivity increases.
“Comparing the federal minimum wage to aggregate productivity trends in this way is problematic, though, for two reasons.
First, state, local, and city governments across the country already often set minimum wages significantly higher than the federal level, particularly in higher‐productivity regions.
…
But a more important flaw in linking the minimum wage to economy-wide labor productivity is that the productivity performance of all workers tells us little about the productivity performance of minimum wage workers. Different industries, different companies, and even different workers within organizations are likely to experience different productivity growth rates over time.
…
Yet labor productivity in the restaurant sector (often regarded as a better proxy for a typical minimum wage industry) rose by an average of just 0.4 percent per year between 1987 and 2017 (with unit labor costs increasing by 3.3 percent per year). If pegged instead to this productivity measure, the minimum wage would have increased by just 13 percent in real terms over three decades, rising to $8.25 by 2017.”
Bad Economic Justifications for Minimum Wage Hikes
It’s difficult to increase productivity in the labor-intensive service sector where so many people affected by minimum wage rates work.
From the link:
From the link:
It’s difficult to increase productivity in the labor-intensive service sector where so many people affected by minimum wage rates work.
Increases in productivity in labor-intensive sectors typically takes the form of automating jobs out of existence.
So there’s that.
Nonetheless, some things seem to resist automation. And, many of those things continue, nonetheless, to be poorly paid.
Here is another way to think about it. Imagine that somebody somewhere has a magic wand that can make an entire job category disappear. Wave the wand, and nobody will be doing that job anymore.
Pick which job you’d like to see disappear. Not that the need for the job goes way, just that the job goes away. Still needs doing, but nobody does it anymore.
Pick one:
Home health care aide.
Hospital orderly.
Office cleaner.
Farm laborer.
Hedge fund manager.
It’s difficult to increase productivity in the labor-intensive service sector where so many people affected by minimum wage rates work.
Increases in productivity in labor-intensive sectors typically takes the form of automating jobs out of existence.
So there’s that.
Nonetheless, some things seem to resist automation. And, many of those things continue, nonetheless, to be poorly paid.
Here is another way to think about it. Imagine that somebody somewhere has a magic wand that can make an entire job category disappear. Wave the wand, and nobody will be doing that job anymore.
Pick which job you’d like to see disappear. Not that the need for the job goes way, just that the job goes away. Still needs doing, but nobody does it anymore.
Pick one:
Home health care aide.
Hospital orderly.
Office cleaner.
Farm laborer.
Hedge fund manager.
And as a total aside and possible thread jack, allow me to mention that the incoming freshmen (R) House reps include some truly despicable human beings.
I’m referring specifically, in this case, to Boebert’s taunting of David Hogg for his not responding in some asshole-ish way to Greene’s equally despicable taunting of David Hogg.
I guess he was supposed to punch her out, or beat her senseless with a baseball bat, or pull a gun out of some concealed place and shoot her. Instead, he ignored her and went on his way.
Obviously, a display of cowardice on his part.
I don’t know what it’s going to take to purge the (R) party of this kind of puerile assholery, but it needs to happen. The rest of us are freaking sick of it.
Conservatives and (R)’s, clean your freaking house. Please. Or, if you’re a person of any integrity, get the hell out.
The trend is not in a positive direction.
And as a total aside and possible thread jack, allow me to mention that the incoming freshmen (R) House reps include some truly despicable human beings.
I’m referring specifically, in this case, to Boebert’s taunting of David Hogg for his not responding in some asshole-ish way to Greene’s equally despicable taunting of David Hogg.
I guess he was supposed to punch her out, or beat her senseless with a baseball bat, or pull a gun out of some concealed place and shoot her. Instead, he ignored her and went on his way.
Obviously, a display of cowardice on his part.
I don’t know what it’s going to take to purge the (R) party of this kind of puerile assholery, but it needs to happen. The rest of us are freaking sick of it.
Conservatives and (R)’s, clean your freaking house. Please. Or, if you’re a person of any integrity, get the hell out.
The trend is not in a positive direction.
The funny thing is, whether I mean to or not, in the longer term, I want a higher minimum wage to save our capitalistic system, maybe from itself, so the wheels don’t eventually fall off and more human suffering is the result. My thinking is that people at the top, even if they have a smaller share of the overall pie, will be better off, too. It’s hard for me to fathom what kind of commie that makes me.
The funny thing is, whether I mean to or not, in the longer term, I want a higher minimum wage to save our capitalistic system, maybe from itself, so the wheels don’t eventually fall off and more human suffering is the result. My thinking is that people at the top, even if they have a smaller share of the overall pie, will be better off, too. It’s hard for me to fathom what kind of commie that makes me.
My thinking is that people at the top, even if they have a smaller share of the overall pie, will be better off, too.
Beyond a certain point, more money just doesn’t mean that much. It just because a dick-measuring contest, a way of keeping score.
Where a ‘certain point’ is, is probably a matter of opinion. Personally, I think of it as the point at which, if you never worked another day in your life, your quality of life wouldn’t change that much.
When you start talking about people with personal or household wealth of multiple millions of dollars or more, it begins to be ridiculous to privilege concern for their financial well-being above that of other people.
Realistically, they’re kind of all set.
My opinion, obviously.
My thinking is that people at the top, even if they have a smaller share of the overall pie, will be better off, too.
Beyond a certain point, more money just doesn’t mean that much. It just because a dick-measuring contest, a way of keeping score.
Where a ‘certain point’ is, is probably a matter of opinion. Personally, I think of it as the point at which, if you never worked another day in your life, your quality of life wouldn’t change that much.
When you start talking about people with personal or household wealth of multiple millions of dollars or more, it begins to be ridiculous to privilege concern for their financial well-being above that of other people.
Realistically, they’re kind of all set.
My opinion, obviously.
‘becomes a dick-measuring contest’.
‘becomes a dick-measuring contest’.
One way to increase pay for low-skill jobs is to reduce the number of people competing for them by educating people better.
One way to increase pay for low-skill jobs is to reduce the number of people competing for them by educating people better.
‘becomes a dick-measuring contest’.
in that the biggest dicks are the ones who do this…
‘becomes a dick-measuring contest’.
in that the biggest dicks are the ones who do this…
I was wondering how many undocumented aliens get minimum wage. Don’t really have the answer, but this article was interesting, a lot of stuff to chew on for those who are actually interested in data.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/25249172?seq=1#
I was wondering how many undocumented aliens get minimum wage. Don’t really have the answer, but this article was interesting, a lot of stuff to chew on for those who are actually interested in data.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/25249172?seq=1#
One Biden administration policy I approve of is giving illegal immigrants the opportunity to become legal. Being able to take jobs based on their skills and not their status should give them a boost in income.
One Biden administration policy I approve of is giving illegal immigrants the opportunity to become legal. Being able to take jobs based on their skills and not their status should give them a boost in income.
My thinking is that people at the top, even if they have a smaller share of the overall pie, will be better off, too.
Or, at minimum, no worse off. Sadly, many of them can conceive of no version of “better off” except “more money . . . whether we have anything we want to, you know, do with it or not.”
In short, wrs at 10:20
My thinking is that people at the top, even if they have a smaller share of the overall pie, will be better off, too.
Or, at minimum, no worse off. Sadly, many of them can conceive of no version of “better off” except “more money . . . whether we have anything we want to, you know, do with it or not.”
In short, wrs at 10:20
We obviosuly need a federal maximum wage (wage including benefits like health insurance but excluding bonuses). Since minimising costs is the canonical way to compete (quality is non-quantifiable and thus does not count) the natural way of wages is down. To artificially block that creates an unnatural disincentive to competition. Sinking wages also leads to more competition among the wage workers. The need to work more jobs puts them on the suppply side (through the demand that they get off their lazy unwashed behinds). The trickle-down will be material (blood, sweat and tears*).
*contrary to common belief ‘toil’ is not a liquid and there is no direct connection to toilets. Btw, toilet breaks are also uncompetitive and should therefore be treated like monetary/noncash benefits, not as bonuses.
We obviosuly need a federal maximum wage (wage including benefits like health insurance but excluding bonuses). Since minimising costs is the canonical way to compete (quality is non-quantifiable and thus does not count) the natural way of wages is down. To artificially block that creates an unnatural disincentive to competition. Sinking wages also leads to more competition among the wage workers. The need to work more jobs puts them on the suppply side (through the demand that they get off their lazy unwashed behinds). The trickle-down will be material (blood, sweat and tears*).
*contrary to common belief ‘toil’ is not a liquid and there is no direct connection to toilets. Btw, toilet breaks are also uncompetitive and should therefore be treated like monetary/noncash benefits, not as bonuses.
Nice to see folks citing Dean Baker here. He’s one of my favorite economists. You can download his book Rigged for free. Well worth the read.
Nice to see folks citing Dean Baker here. He’s one of my favorite economists. You can download his book Rigged for free. Well worth the read.
bobbyp, are you familiar with Marianna Mazzucato? Some of my reasonably leftyish friends are keen (I, of course, know nothing)….
bobbyp, are you familiar with Marianna Mazzucato? Some of my reasonably leftyish friends are keen (I, of course, know nothing)….
One of the things our conservative friends bring up when discussing income/wealth inequality is that, even if the people at the bottom have a smaller piece of the pie than they used to, it’s a bigger pie, so they still have more in absolute terms. (This ignores the number of people who still struggle on a daily basis and are forced to make very hard choices out of desperation, but I’ll leave that aside for now.)
What I am saying is that, if people at the bottom had more money, it would benefit the economy by stimulating demand. So, even if the people at the top had a smaller piece of the pie than they otherwise would have, they would still be better off in absolute terms. And it’s a lot easier to be less well off in relative terms than would otherwise have been if you’re still better off than everyone else.
It’s hard to imagine someone saying, “Oh, look! That guy has a nicer car than he used to. It’s not as less-nice than mine as it should be! I’m being left behind!”
One of the things our conservative friends bring up when discussing income/wealth inequality is that, even if the people at the bottom have a smaller piece of the pie than they used to, it’s a bigger pie, so they still have more in absolute terms. (This ignores the number of people who still struggle on a daily basis and are forced to make very hard choices out of desperation, but I’ll leave that aside for now.)
What I am saying is that, if people at the bottom had more money, it would benefit the economy by stimulating demand. So, even if the people at the top had a smaller piece of the pie than they otherwise would have, they would still be better off in absolute terms. And it’s a lot easier to be less well off in relative terms than would otherwise have been if you’re still better off than everyone else.
It’s hard to imagine someone saying, “Oh, look! That guy has a nicer car than he used to. It’s not as less-nice than mine as it should be! I’m being left behind!”
In the proper past it would have not been necessary to say that since there simply would have been laws forbidding the lesser beings to display such symbols of status.
Some companies still impose such rules, e.g. employees are not allowed to use cars above their status (and that includes their private cars) when coming to work or doing company business. Such rules apply in reverse on the upper management of course, i.e., they have to use cars that are up to their status.
In the proper past it would have not been necessary to say that since there simply would have been laws forbidding the lesser beings to display such symbols of status.
Some companies still impose such rules, e.g. employees are not allowed to use cars above their status (and that includes their private cars) when coming to work or doing company business. Such rules apply in reverse on the upper management of course, i.e., they have to use cars that are up to their status.
bobbyp, are you familiar with Marianna Mazzucato?
No. Looks to be well worth reading some of her writings. Thanks for the heads up.
bobbyp, are you familiar with Marianna Mazzucato?
No. Looks to be well worth reading some of her writings. Thanks for the heads up.
Some companies still impose such rules, e.g. employees are not allowed to use cars above their status (and that includes their private cars) when coming to work or doing company business. Such rules apply in reverse on the upper management of course, i.e., they have to use cars that are up to their status.
That’s fascinating. And not, thankfully, something I have ever encountered in my own career. Can you offer some examples?
Some companies still impose such rules, e.g. employees are not allowed to use cars above their status (and that includes their private cars) when coming to work or doing company business. Such rules apply in reverse on the upper management of course, i.e., they have to use cars that are up to their status.
That’s fascinating. And not, thankfully, something I have ever encountered in my own career. Can you offer some examples?
Siemens used to do this in Germany, although it was not officially put into writing. Violators got strong hints what was expected. This system of unwritten law seems to have been quite common at big companies around here. Iirc there was a case of a merger where the car hierarchies of the two companies were different and there were some complaints by high ranking emplyees that they got ‘demoted’ as far as their vehicles went. I can not name specific US companies without looking it up but given that US companies tend to have much stricter codes (older Dilbert cartoons are full of real-life examples) with often explicit rules what kind of office chair each employee can use depending on rank within the company (worse than in Versailles)* etc. I assume that the car hierarchy also runs on formal not informal guidelines. I know that several big US companies ran into trouble around here because this kind of rules clashed with German customs and occasionally written laws. Walmart gave up completely and withdrew after courts intervened on behalf of (German) employees**. Given the choice of adapting to local customs or to withdraw the company preferred to go instead of giving an inch on outwardly visible and inwardly strictly enforced hierarchy. Walmart was also so extremly inflexible in how they ran their shops that customers quickly turned their backs on them even independent of the negative headlines about the employee treatment.
Rule #1: do not put it into writing and in particular not into (German) employee contracts that you consider the people working for you as bondslaves. Wink wink nudge nudge is OK though.
*over here it is the traditional 3 ranks of chairs and it very unlikely that an employee gets a notice that a broken office chair cannot be replaced because none for his specific rank is available (I have heard of some US companies that have a ranking list of no less than 12 different chairs and of course the same for desks).
**The straw that broke the camel’s back were attempts to control the private life of employees too.
Siemens used to do this in Germany, although it was not officially put into writing. Violators got strong hints what was expected. This system of unwritten law seems to have been quite common at big companies around here. Iirc there was a case of a merger where the car hierarchies of the two companies were different and there were some complaints by high ranking emplyees that they got ‘demoted’ as far as their vehicles went. I can not name specific US companies without looking it up but given that US companies tend to have much stricter codes (older Dilbert cartoons are full of real-life examples) with often explicit rules what kind of office chair each employee can use depending on rank within the company (worse than in Versailles)* etc. I assume that the car hierarchy also runs on formal not informal guidelines. I know that several big US companies ran into trouble around here because this kind of rules clashed with German customs and occasionally written laws. Walmart gave up completely and withdrew after courts intervened on behalf of (German) employees**. Given the choice of adapting to local customs or to withdraw the company preferred to go instead of giving an inch on outwardly visible and inwardly strictly enforced hierarchy. Walmart was also so extremly inflexible in how they ran their shops that customers quickly turned their backs on them even independent of the negative headlines about the employee treatment.
Rule #1: do not put it into writing and in particular not into (German) employee contracts that you consider the people working for you as bondslaves. Wink wink nudge nudge is OK though.
*over here it is the traditional 3 ranks of chairs and it very unlikely that an employee gets a notice that a broken office chair cannot be replaced because none for his specific rank is available (I have heard of some US companies that have a ranking list of no less than 12 different chairs and of course the same for desks).
**The straw that broke the camel’s back were attempts to control the private life of employees too.
i just steal a chair from an empty office when i need a new one
i just steal a chair from an empty office when i need a new one
I think that is comon practice in most places. 😉
I think that is comon practice in most places. 😉
In some US tech companies, if the executives want to park near the entrance of the workplace, they have to arrive at work before their employees do. Otherwise, they have to scramble for parking spaces like everyone else.
In some US tech companies, if the executives want to park near the entrance of the workplace, they have to arrive at work before their employees do. Otherwise, they have to scramble for parking spaces like everyone else.
I can see discrimination regarding what kind of chair the company will provide. Not least because I’ve seen it. But then the company is buying the chairs.
However, what kind of car an employee can buy with his own money and drive to work? Not in the US — or perhaps I need to get out more.
I can see discrimination regarding what kind of chair the company will provide. Not least because I’ve seen it. But then the company is buying the chairs.
However, what kind of car an employee can buy with his own money and drive to work? Not in the US — or perhaps I need to get out more.
I’ve worked in one or two places where folks who had an office with a door would also have one of those swanky mesh back hyper-adjustable chairs, while everyone else made do with… a perfectly good chair. I’m not sure anybody cared one way or the other.
In one place, they shelled out for cool chairs for the meeting room, and one of the managers got all pissy about everybody having to remember to push the nice chairs back under the table after meetings. That lasted about a week.
This stuff must be important to somebody, because enough places do it, but it seems dumb to me. Worrying about whose chair is nicer than anybody else’s seems kind of childish, to me.
I have worked in three places where good parking places were reserved for special people. In two of them, the ‘special people’ were the founders of the company, and in one of those, parking was very limited, so it seemed reasonable. In the third place, the ‘special guy’ was a new CEO brought in by new management after the company I worked for was bought. Reserved parking had not been part of the culture there up to then, and introducing it basically reinforced the impression of one and all that the new guy was a jerk.
I have never worked anywhere where anyone cared or really noticed what anyone else drove, at least as far as it being a marker of your rank or status in the organization.
All of this stuff just seems like evidence of dysfunction, to me. It’s like turning your workplace into some kind of adult variant of junior high school, where everyone worries about whether they’re one of the cool kids or not. It seems like a great way to foster whatever the opposite of team building is.
I’ve worked in one or two places where folks who had an office with a door would also have one of those swanky mesh back hyper-adjustable chairs, while everyone else made do with… a perfectly good chair. I’m not sure anybody cared one way or the other.
In one place, they shelled out for cool chairs for the meeting room, and one of the managers got all pissy about everybody having to remember to push the nice chairs back under the table after meetings. That lasted about a week.
This stuff must be important to somebody, because enough places do it, but it seems dumb to me. Worrying about whose chair is nicer than anybody else’s seems kind of childish, to me.
I have worked in three places where good parking places were reserved for special people. In two of them, the ‘special people’ were the founders of the company, and in one of those, parking was very limited, so it seemed reasonable. In the third place, the ‘special guy’ was a new CEO brought in by new management after the company I worked for was bought. Reserved parking had not been part of the culture there up to then, and introducing it basically reinforced the impression of one and all that the new guy was a jerk.
I have never worked anywhere where anyone cared or really noticed what anyone else drove, at least as far as it being a marker of your rank or status in the organization.
All of this stuff just seems like evidence of dysfunction, to me. It’s like turning your workplace into some kind of adult variant of junior high school, where everyone worries about whether they’re one of the cool kids or not. It seems like a great way to foster whatever the opposite of team building is.
Working for a large corporation, such petty rules would not fly. But all the “team building” stuff is BS. Having managers that have the authority and ability to treat their subordinates with respect and rewards is a lot more effective than a departmental bowling night.
Working for a large corporation, such petty rules would not fly. But all the “team building” stuff is BS. Having managers that have the authority and ability to treat their subordinates with respect and rewards is a lot more effective than a departmental bowling night.
FWIW, in my experience, the bigger the corp, the pettier the rules. Petty might be the wrong word here – the bigger the corp, the more formulaic the rules, and the more seriously they are taken.
Also in my experience, team building is actually kind of critical, but I agree that bowling nights are not the way to do it. Respect is a very very large part of it. Rewards can be, but are less critical than respect, and in fact can work against team cohesion if they are not clearly designed and implemented to be fair. Again, all in my experience and opinion.
FWIW, in my experience, the bigger the corp, the pettier the rules. Petty might be the wrong word here – the bigger the corp, the more formulaic the rules, and the more seriously they are taken.
Also in my experience, team building is actually kind of critical, but I agree that bowling nights are not the way to do it. Respect is a very very large part of it. Rewards can be, but are less critical than respect, and in fact can work against team cohesion if they are not clearly designed and implemented to be fair. Again, all in my experience and opinion.
I can’t find the quote, but I think it was Vonnegut, something like you are in elementary school, you think everything is run the way things are done in jhs, when you are in jhs, you think high school is how it works, HS, university, you get out of university, you realize that everything is run like junior high school. Obviously, his version is a lot pithier, but ‘my chair is nicer’ seems like evidence to support the observation.
I can’t find the quote, but I think it was Vonnegut, something like you are in elementary school, you think everything is run the way things are done in jhs, when you are in jhs, you think high school is how it works, HS, university, you get out of university, you realize that everything is run like junior high school. Obviously, his version is a lot pithier, but ‘my chair is nicer’ seems like evidence to support the observation.
“This place is like high school.
Even on the House floor that is the only time that we’re all together — usually for votes — and you’ve got everybody, all 435 members there, and you see the little cliques gathering in their designated corners like the cafeteria tables.” —Tulsi Gabbard
“This place is like high school.
Even on the House floor that is the only time that we’re all together — usually for votes — and you’ve got everybody, all 435 members there, and you see the little cliques gathering in their designated corners like the cafeteria tables.” —Tulsi Gabbard
Also in my experience, team building is actually kind of critical, but I agree that bowling nights are not the way to do it. Respect is a very very large part of it.
that’s why we did an axe throwing competition for our last team building afternoon.
nothing builds respect like seeing someone you don’t know so much handling an axe.
Also in my experience, team building is actually kind of critical, but I agree that bowling nights are not the way to do it. Respect is a very very large part of it.
that’s why we did an axe throwing competition for our last team building afternoon.
nothing builds respect like seeing someone you don’t know so much handling an axe.
I knew I was pretty oblivious as an adult. But apparently I was oblivious as a kid, too. Because if any of this was going on in my jhs or hs, I totally failed to notice.
Maybe some in university, where most people avoided the frat boys (and, I suppose, vis versa). But that seemed more behavioral than status. At least on our part.
I knew I was pretty oblivious as an adult. But apparently I was oblivious as a kid, too. Because if any of this was going on in my jhs or hs, I totally failed to notice.
Maybe some in university, where most people avoided the frat boys (and, I suppose, vis versa). But that seemed more behavioral than status. At least on our part.
wj, it’s the work of generations but understanding does seem to moving fitfully. You had people going along with hazing back then but now that same mass of people might be more squeamish. Some might try and assert power by defending the people bullied. Would this clip from Malcolm in the middle have been as funny if the show were 10 years earlier?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pisw94dhm6w
wj, it’s the work of generations but understanding does seem to moving fitfully. You had people going along with hazing back then but now that same mass of people might be more squeamish. Some might try and assert power by defending the people bullied. Would this clip from Malcolm in the middle have been as funny if the show were 10 years earlier?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pisw94dhm6w
Late to the party, but:
> low risk school situations
In the UK’s recent experience, there are no low-risk school situations. I don’t think the US will have the money or willpower to do the amount of retrofit, crash school facility expansion, crash hiring of new teachers, etc. to approach low-risk, either.
Our primary school was, compared to its peers, a model of controlled COVID – but before the current lockdowns there were regularly 25% of the staff out for two-week isolation periods due to exposure. Our secondary school was worse; most of the cases of COVID at the primary school that we had some reasonable idea of were coming in from older siblings’ schools.
Late to the party, but:
> low risk school situations
In the UK’s recent experience, there are no low-risk school situations. I don’t think the US will have the money or willpower to do the amount of retrofit, crash school facility expansion, crash hiring of new teachers, etc. to approach low-risk, either.
Our primary school was, compared to its peers, a model of controlled COVID – but before the current lockdowns there were regularly 25% of the staff out for two-week isolation periods due to exposure. Our secondary school was worse; most of the cases of COVID at the primary school that we had some reasonable idea of were coming in from older siblings’ schools.
Hi Tom, thanks for joining in. Not sure where you are quoting, I largely agree with you, but I think they say low risk because children and adolescents are at low risk. I totally agree with you that this is a poor descriptor, though it might be used because there is an assumption of a nuclear family with grandparents living separately and a relatively young teaching staff, largely because pay scales are so shitty in the US and UK. Here in Japan, where the Ministry of Education is trying to push f2f learning for the new school year that begins in April, Japanese families are often multi-generational and at most universities, the demographic is sharply skewed to teachers closer to retirement, so ‘low risk school situations’ is pretty laughable here. Secondary and elementary schools are meeting in person, and social pressure on mask wearing seems to be keeping COVID at bay, but it is a hell of a gamble imo.
Anyway, thanks, and don’t hesitate to comment again!
Hi Tom, thanks for joining in. Not sure where you are quoting, I largely agree with you, but I think they say low risk because children and adolescents are at low risk. I totally agree with you that this is a poor descriptor, though it might be used because there is an assumption of a nuclear family with grandparents living separately and a relatively young teaching staff, largely because pay scales are so shitty in the US and UK. Here in Japan, where the Ministry of Education is trying to push f2f learning for the new school year that begins in April, Japanese families are often multi-generational and at most universities, the demographic is sharply skewed to teachers closer to retirement, so ‘low risk school situations’ is pretty laughable here. Secondary and elementary schools are meeting in person, and social pressure on mask wearing seems to be keeping COVID at bay, but it is a hell of a gamble imo.
Anyway, thanks, and don’t hesitate to comment again!