Just trying to help here

by

by liberal japonicus

Given the median age around these parts, I post this article as a public service.

Since Twitter and Facebook banned Donald Trump and began “purging” QAnon conspiracists, a segment of the chattering class has been making all sorts of wild proclamations about this “precedent-setting” event. As such, I thought I’d set the record straight.

Click on the twitter thread at the end, hours of hilarity. Even more when you realize the original tweeter graduated from the same school as Trump.

814 thoughts on “Just trying to help here”

  1. While I am certainly in the oldster group, I spent a lot of years in the small computing and data communications industry. Here are two predictions about where the important consequences of the Parler clamp-down are going to be in two or three years.
    1) Smartphones are now the predominant general-purpose computing device for most Americans. For the vast majority of Americans, Apple/Google have complete control over what software may be loaded and run. (Poll question: who here knows, without looking, how to sideload an application into their phone?)
    2) Amazon’s almost certain violation of the “we will never look at the data you store in our cloud” side of their standard agreement.

  2. While I am certainly in the oldster group, I spent a lot of years in the small computing and data communications industry. Here are two predictions about where the important consequences of the Parler clamp-down are going to be in two or three years.
    1) Smartphones are now the predominant general-purpose computing device for most Americans. For the vast majority of Americans, Apple/Google have complete control over what software may be loaded and run. (Poll question: who here knows, without looking, how to sideload an application into their phone?)
    2) Amazon’s almost certain violation of the “we will never look at the data you store in our cloud” side of their standard agreement.

  5. Michael, apologies, though I think there are a number of people here (including me) who are not up to speed on this.
    About AWS, there must have been people reporting what was on Parler that Amazon can simply say it asked for verified procedures. It can also point to the violence on the 6th and simply say it was taking due diligence, and if Parler did not have a procedure in place, they were just being cautious. IANAL, but I don’t think the standard agreement allows them to look the other way when Parler was potentially facilitating violence.
    According to BuzzFeed, Amazon Web Services (AWS), told Parler officials that the violence in posts on the site ran afoul of its terms of service, and that it did not believe Parler had a process in place to get back on track. “Because Parler cannot comply with our terms of service and poses a very real risk to public safety, we plan to suspend Parler’s account effective Sunday, January 10th, at 11:59PM PST,” the company’s trust and safety team wrote in a letter to Parler.
    Given that others were able to download basically all of Parler
    https://www.mediawinii.com/how-80tb-of-parler-posts-videos-and-other-data-was-leaked/
    I think Amazon can point to that and say that others reported it, though perhaps some can give a more inside explanation.

  6. Michael, apologies, though I think there are a number of people here (including me) who are not up to speed on this.
    About AWS, there must have been people reporting what was on Parler that Amazon can simply say it asked for verified procedures. It can also point to the violence on the 6th and simply say it was taking due diligence, and if Parler did not have a procedure in place, they were just being cautious. IANAL, but I don’t think the standard agreement allows them to look the other way when Parler was potentially facilitating violence.
    According to BuzzFeed, Amazon Web Services (AWS), told Parler officials that the violence in posts on the site ran afoul of its terms of service, and that it did not believe Parler had a process in place to get back on track. “Because Parler cannot comply with our terms of service and poses a very real risk to public safety, we plan to suspend Parler’s account effective Sunday, January 10th, at 11:59PM PST,” the company’s trust and safety team wrote in a letter to Parler.
    Given that others were able to download basically all of Parler
    https://www.mediawinii.com/how-80tb-of-parler-posts-videos-and-other-data-was-leaked/
    I think Amazon can point to that and say that others reported it, though perhaps some can give a more inside explanation.

  7. Poll question: who here knows, without looking, how to sideload an application into their phone?
    With or without looking, I have no idea what this even means!

  8. Poll question: who here knows, without looking, how to sideload an application into their phone?
    With or without looking, I have no idea what this even means!

  9. Apple/Google have complete control over what software may be loaded and run.
    We used to have a pretty strong anti-monopoly bias. Now we don’t.
    There are pros and cons. One of the cons is that you get what the monopolistic provider wants to give you.
    As a society, we pays our money and we takes our choice.
    And, what cleek said.

  10. Apple/Google have complete control over what software may be loaded and run.
    We used to have a pretty strong anti-monopoly bias. Now we don’t.
    There are pros and cons. One of the cons is that you get what the monopolistic provider wants to give you.
    As a society, we pays our money and we takes our choice.
    And, what cleek said.

  13. With or without looking, I have no idea what this even means!
    Thirded. I even looked. Still do not have any idea.
    companies have no obligation to be party to violent insurrection in any way.
    Unless it enhances shareholder value./sarcasm

  14. With or without looking, I have no idea what this even means!
    Thirded. I even looked. Still do not have any idea.
    companies have no obligation to be party to violent insurrection in any way.
    Unless it enhances shareholder value./sarcasm

  15. Poll question: who here knows, without looking, how to sideload an application into their phone?
    With or without looking, I have no idea what this even means!
    I haven’t encountered the term before. But I’m guessing it means finding an app somewhere other that the “app stores” already set up on your phone. And then installing it.
    For example, my town has an app to connect residents to stuff. Downloadable from the town’s website. No app store involved.

  16. Poll question: who here knows, without looking, how to sideload an application into their phone?
    With or without looking, I have no idea what this even means!
    I haven’t encountered the term before. But I’m guessing it means finding an app somewhere other that the “app stores” already set up on your phone. And then installing it.
    For example, my town has an app to connect residents to stuff. Downloadable from the town’s website. No app store involved.

  17. i know what it means, but i’ve never bothered.
    i’m perfectly happy with my iPhone and what other people create for the iOS store. i think of it as a tool, not yet another (#^%@@*!!!) computer i need to meticulously cultivate.

  18. i know what it means, but i’ve never bothered.
    i’m perfectly happy with my iPhone and what other people create for the iOS store. i think of it as a tool, not yet another (#^%@@*!!!) computer i need to meticulously cultivate.

  19. I’m recalling that, at his appearance at the final rally of the Georgia run-off election, Trump said that if Democrats won the state’s two Senate runoff elections, “America as you know it will be over, and it will never—I believe—be able to come back again.”
    It seems . . . odd . . . to ever say this, but from Trump’s lips to God’s ear.

  20. I’m recalling that, at his appearance at the final rally of the Georgia run-off election, Trump said that if Democrats won the state’s two Senate runoff elections, “America as you know it will be over, and it will never—I believe—be able to come back again.”
    It seems . . . odd . . . to ever say this, but from Trump’s lips to God’s ear.

  31. I am not willing to transfer the responsibility fot the attacks on Congress to Parler and Qnon. The blame rests squarely on the Republican party. They deliberately and cynically replaced discussion of policy and ideas with slander, defamation and lies and they have been at it for a long time. Trump is the result of their hatemongering. And Republicans are in the position where they will lose elections if they don’t pander to the haters they created,

  32. I am not willing to transfer the responsibility fot the attacks on Congress to Parler and Qnon. The blame rests squarely on the Republican party. They deliberately and cynically replaced discussion of policy and ideas with slander, defamation and lies and they have been at it for a long time. Trump is the result of their hatemongering. And Republicans are in the position where they will lose elections if they don’t pander to the haters they created,

  35. You know, it’s all fun and games until somebody gets hurt.
    I do feel badly for some of these folks, because they’re being used. But at a certain point, the fictional narrative becomes so absurd that gullibility becomes kind of hard to excuse.
    There is a global cabal of Satan-worshipping pedophiles. They rule the world. Among other things, they eat children. Very well known people, including most of the (D) leadership, are part of this.
    That’s the basic QAnon credo.
    Trust me when I say that I have experience with people who believe unusual things. I’m way more than sympathetic to oddballs.
    But at a certain point, we’re all obliged to take a look at what we believe and ask ourselves if it really holds up. That point is generally when what we believe makes us think really horrible things about other people. Ideally before then, but that’s where the rubber kind of meets the road.
    Look at another person, and say to yourself, yes, that person worships Satan and eats children. Because somebody on a blog somewhere – some anonymous shadowy individual who identifies themselves with a capital letter – said it was so.
    Real person, anonymous blog entity. Real person eats babies, because anonymous blog entity says so.
    And then decide the real person needs to be killed or imprisoned or otherwise destroyed.
    Right?
    I run out of sympathy somewhere around the “real person vs anonymous blog entity” part. I more than run out of sympathy at the “so we must destroy them” part.
    Absent clinical medical illness, severe chemical dependency, or other significant mental impairment, people are responsible for and accountable for what they choose to believe, and especially for the actions they take based on what they believe.
    The cult-like aspects of Q are profoundly sad and perhaps even tragic, but they do not excuse the actions of the followers.
    These people clearly intended harm to members of Congress. Assault, kidnap, maybe murder.
    The folks who weren’t on the pointy end of all of that were right there behind them. They were fine with it all.
    No excuses.

  36. You know, it’s all fun and games until somebody gets hurt.
    I do feel badly for some of these folks, because they’re being used. But at a certain point, the fictional narrative becomes so absurd that gullibility becomes kind of hard to excuse.
    There is a global cabal of Satan-worshipping pedophiles. They rule the world. Among other things, they eat children. Very well known people, including most of the (D) leadership, are part of this.
    That’s the basic QAnon credo.
    Trust me when I say that I have experience with people who believe unusual things. I’m way more than sympathetic to oddballs.
    But at a certain point, we’re all obliged to take a look at what we believe and ask ourselves if it really holds up. That point is generally when what we believe makes us think really horrible things about other people. Ideally before then, but that’s where the rubber kind of meets the road.
    Look at another person, and say to yourself, yes, that person worships Satan and eats children. Because somebody on a blog somewhere – some anonymous shadowy individual who identifies themselves with a capital letter – said it was so.
    Real person, anonymous blog entity. Real person eats babies, because anonymous blog entity says so.
    And then decide the real person needs to be killed or imprisoned or otherwise destroyed.
    Right?
    I run out of sympathy somewhere around the “real person vs anonymous blog entity” part. I more than run out of sympathy at the “so we must destroy them” part.
    Absent clinical medical illness, severe chemical dependency, or other significant mental impairment, people are responsible for and accountable for what they choose to believe, and especially for the actions they take based on what they believe.
    The cult-like aspects of Q are profoundly sad and perhaps even tragic, but they do not excuse the actions of the followers.
    These people clearly intended harm to members of Congress. Assault, kidnap, maybe murder.
    The folks who weren’t on the pointy end of all of that were right there behind them. They were fine with it all.
    No excuses.

  37. Like Scrooge, the GOP has been forging this chain link by link starting with the baby steps of Dicky Nixon, taking cues from the success of George Wallace in Dem primaries during the 70’s, going into full blown overdrive under Reagan, and the finale, the denial of the legitimacy of Democrats to govern embodied by the Newt and his poo-flinging successors.
    It’s only gotten worse since Bush staked his political capital on privatizing Social Security. The looming inability to win the presidency is driving the GOP into full blown Confederate rebellion.

  38. Like Scrooge, the GOP has been forging this chain link by link starting with the baby steps of Dicky Nixon, taking cues from the success of George Wallace in Dem primaries during the 70’s, going into full blown overdrive under Reagan, and the finale, the denial of the legitimacy of Democrats to govern embodied by the Newt and his poo-flinging successors.
    It’s only gotten worse since Bush staked his political capital on privatizing Social Security. The looming inability to win the presidency is driving the GOP into full blown Confederate rebellion.

  41. it shouldn’t be up to a bunch of Silicon Valley people to decide what’s acceptable speech
    They aren’t deciding what is acceptable speech. They are merely deciding what speech they will choose to pass along.
    If it helps, think of your local newspaper deciding which Letters to the Editor they will publish.

  42. it shouldn’t be up to a bunch of Silicon Valley people to decide what’s acceptable speech
    They aren’t deciding what is acceptable speech. They are merely deciding what speech they will choose to pass along.
    If it helps, think of your local newspaper deciding which Letters to the Editor they will publish.

  43. The Trump / Parler ban – while in this very moment something we might applaud – is obviously problematic since it shouldn’t be up to a bunch of Silicon Valley people to decide what’s acceptable speech etc.
    I agree that it’s problematic, but as long as we consider these companies to be private entities, and call them to account (before Congress, etc.) for what they allow to happen on their platforms, I think they’re well within their right to ban people who are plotting violent criminal conspiracies. It will be interesting to see the law on this develop in the courts.

  44. The Trump / Parler ban – while in this very moment something we might applaud – is obviously problematic since it shouldn’t be up to a bunch of Silicon Valley people to decide what’s acceptable speech etc.
    I agree that it’s problematic, but as long as we consider these companies to be private entities, and call them to account (before Congress, etc.) for what they allow to happen on their platforms, I think they’re well within their right to ban people who are plotting violent criminal conspiracies. It will be interesting to see the law on this develop in the courts.

  47. I see that the Josh Hawley NYT article was the underpinning of the LGM post that GftNC posted earlier elsewhere. Well worth reading for people who can stomach it. I’m not anti-religious (usually), and have had moments of faith myself, but articles like this make it tempting to equate religion with Q, and not in a good way.

  48. I see that the Josh Hawley NYT article was the underpinning of the LGM post that GftNC posted earlier elsewhere. Well worth reading for people who can stomach it. I’m not anti-religious (usually), and have had moments of faith myself, but articles like this make it tempting to equate religion with Q, and not in a good way.

  49. Q is not even original. Replace ‘Democrats’ with ‘Jews’ and you get mostly highlights from the very old playbook.
    Btw, the mob storming the Capitol displayed both pro-Israel and blatantly antisemitic signs and symbols. But since the Yahoo from Netanja began to openly support the antisemitic campaigns* by the likes of Orban and Kaczynski, this should be no longer a surprise.
    *targeting mainly liberal Jews

  50. Q is not even original. Replace ‘Democrats’ with ‘Jews’ and you get mostly highlights from the very old playbook.
    Btw, the mob storming the Capitol displayed both pro-Israel and blatantly antisemitic signs and symbols. But since the Yahoo from Netanja began to openly support the antisemitic campaigns* by the likes of Orban and Kaczynski, this should be no longer a surprise.
    *targeting mainly liberal Jews

  51. Trust me when I say that I have experience with people who believe unusual things. I’m way more than sympathetic to oddballs.
    This made me laugh, russell. I may be deeply unsympathetic to e.g. woo-woo alternative medicine, as you will have gathered on other threads, but it is partly in response to some of the people I knew (and was friends with, and sympathetic to) in my hippy youth.

  52. Trust me when I say that I have experience with people who believe unusual things. I’m way more than sympathetic to oddballs.
    This made me laugh, russell. I may be deeply unsympathetic to e.g. woo-woo alternative medicine, as you will have gathered on other threads, but it is partly in response to some of the people I knew (and was friends with, and sympathetic to) in my hippy youth.

  53. I don’t think the problem is so much tech companies banning individuals for breaching terms of service (though I’m also more concerned about ‘infrastructure’ companies policing content), as it is the tech service providers being quasi monopolies in their particular spaces.
    Facebook ought to be at the head of the queue for some antitrust action.

  54. I don’t think the problem is so much tech companies banning individuals for breaching terms of service (though I’m also more concerned about ‘infrastructure’ companies policing content), as it is the tech service providers being quasi monopolies in their particular spaces.
    Facebook ought to be at the head of the queue for some antitrust action.

  55. If it helps, think of your local newspaper deciding which Letters to the Editor they will publish.
    It really doesn’t.
    The disparity in power and scale is so great it that fails as an analogy, I think.

  56. If it helps, think of your local newspaper deciding which Letters to the Editor they will publish.
    It really doesn’t.
    The disparity in power and scale is so great it that fails as an analogy, I think.

  57. I agree that having the social media companies doing what they’re doing is problematic, and these questions should be revisited in the long run.
    In the short run, however:
    1. Apparently Clickbait was for a long time violating terms of service that were enforced on other people but not him. No link, not going looking for it, but e.g. I read that someone at some point set up a twitter account and did nothing but tweet exact copies of Clickbait’s tweet — and they were shut down. So my objection is to the fact that they didn’t shut him down years ago, not to the fact that they’ve done it now.
    2. We don’t know (at least I don’t know) to what extent the FBI (or whoever, in the government) has pressured the social media companies to take this action right now…
    3. …in order, on an emergency basis, to disrupt the active planning of an all-out assault on DC, not to mention 50 state houses, on or before January 20 by the same mob with reinforcements. Anyone who thinks these people aren’t going to try something again is deluded.
    And since this country is an armed to the teeth lunatic asylum right now, I don’t really give a damn if one way of disrupting the mayhem is for Twitter to shut down the chief lunatic’s account, among others.
    I’m aware that all these actions can and may well be used against my side in the future. It would be nice if we got some sane policies in place before that time comes. Also voting rights legislation to make sure “my side” retains a strong voice in the proceedings.
    Etc.

  58. I agree that having the social media companies doing what they’re doing is problematic, and these questions should be revisited in the long run.
    In the short run, however:
    1. Apparently Clickbait was for a long time violating terms of service that were enforced on other people but not him. No link, not going looking for it, but e.g. I read that someone at some point set up a twitter account and did nothing but tweet exact copies of Clickbait’s tweet — and they were shut down. So my objection is to the fact that they didn’t shut him down years ago, not to the fact that they’ve done it now.
    2. We don’t know (at least I don’t know) to what extent the FBI (or whoever, in the government) has pressured the social media companies to take this action right now…
    3. …in order, on an emergency basis, to disrupt the active planning of an all-out assault on DC, not to mention 50 state houses, on or before January 20 by the same mob with reinforcements. Anyone who thinks these people aren’t going to try something again is deluded.
    And since this country is an armed to the teeth lunatic asylum right now, I don’t really give a damn if one way of disrupting the mayhem is for Twitter to shut down the chief lunatic’s account, among others.
    I’m aware that all these actions can and may well be used against my side in the future. It would be nice if we got some sane policies in place before that time comes. Also voting rights legislation to make sure “my side” retains a strong voice in the proceedings.
    Etc.

  59. Facebook ought to be at the head of the queue for some antitrust action.
    The problem is that there are network effects that make belonging to the same social network as everybody else highly desirable. Facebook isn’t the only social network (LinkedIn, for just one example). But it’s the one everybody chooses because everybody else has chosen it.
    I don’t really see a good way to break it up (dividing members how???). I mean, you could break up AT&T geographically. You could break up Standard Oil in various ways. But a social network?
    And if you try, expect to see everybody fairly rapidly pick one of the pieces and migrate there. Thus recreating the problem.
    In fact, I suspect the only real “solution” is to treat it like a public utility. And regulate it accordingly. (Cue howls of outrage from the libertarians.) Not sure if we want to go that way or not. But not seeing another viable option.

  60. Facebook ought to be at the head of the queue for some antitrust action.
    The problem is that there are network effects that make belonging to the same social network as everybody else highly desirable. Facebook isn’t the only social network (LinkedIn, for just one example). But it’s the one everybody chooses because everybody else has chosen it.
    I don’t really see a good way to break it up (dividing members how???). I mean, you could break up AT&T geographically. You could break up Standard Oil in various ways. But a social network?
    And if you try, expect to see everybody fairly rapidly pick one of the pieces and migrate there. Thus recreating the problem.
    In fact, I suspect the only real “solution” is to treat it like a public utility. And regulate it accordingly. (Cue howls of outrage from the libertarians.) Not sure if we want to go that way or not. But not seeing another viable option.

  61. it shouldn’t be up to a bunch of Silicon Valley people to decide what’s acceptable speech etc.
    They aren’t deciding what is acceptable speech. They are merely deciding what speech they will choose to pass along.
    wj is correct.
    and, if we don’t want a handful of corporate actors – literally, you can count them on one hand – to be able to decide what should and should not be available in the marketplace of ideas, then we should take steps as a society to make sure no corporate actor is in a position to do so.
    We don’t.
    So if Twitter, or Facebook, or Google, or Amazon, decides you’re out, you’re basically out.
    Read ’em and weep.

  62. it shouldn’t be up to a bunch of Silicon Valley people to decide what’s acceptable speech etc.
    They aren’t deciding what is acceptable speech. They are merely deciding what speech they will choose to pass along.
    wj is correct.
    and, if we don’t want a handful of corporate actors – literally, you can count them on one hand – to be able to decide what should and should not be available in the marketplace of ideas, then we should take steps as a society to make sure no corporate actor is in a position to do so.
    We don’t.
    So if Twitter, or Facebook, or Google, or Amazon, decides you’re out, you’re basically out.
    Read ’em and weep.

  63. It’s funny (in that dark ironic way) that facebook seems to be the choice of older folks and those younger wouldn’t be caught dead on it. So treating facebook like a public utility is a bit hopeless cause it may, in a decade or so, be like [fill in a defunct-ish service here]

  64. It’s funny (in that dark ironic way) that facebook seems to be the choice of older folks and those younger wouldn’t be caught dead on it. So treating facebook like a public utility is a bit hopeless cause it may, in a decade or so, be like [fill in a defunct-ish service here]

  65. it is to laugh.
    irony’s been dead for quite a while now, but apparently Trump decided to dig its sorry corpse out of the cold ground, sit it up in a chair, and shoot it in the head. Just to make sure.
    I can’t wait until we go a whole day without hearing his name. Maybe, someday, even a week, or a month.
    Maybe ever.
    soon come.

  66. it is to laugh.
    irony’s been dead for quite a while now, but apparently Trump decided to dig its sorry corpse out of the cold ground, sit it up in a chair, and shoot it in the head. Just to make sure.
    I can’t wait until we go a whole day without hearing his name. Maybe, someday, even a week, or a month.
    Maybe ever.
    soon come.

  67. wj: In fact, I suspect the only real “solution” is to treat it like a public utility.
    Public utilities are not funded by ad revenue.
    I can dimly picture a subscription-based, regulated-public-utility social network, though. Especially if the USPS is made the default ISP and universal last-mile-connectivity provider.
    –TP

  68. wj: In fact, I suspect the only real “solution” is to treat it like a public utility.
    Public utilities are not funded by ad revenue.
    I can dimly picture a subscription-based, regulated-public-utility social network, though. Especially if the USPS is made the default ISP and universal last-mile-connectivity provider.
    –TP

  71. and, if we don’t want a handful of corporate actors – literally, you can count them on one hand – to be able to decide what should and should not be available in the marketplace of ideas, then we should take steps as a society to make sure no corporate actor is in a position to do so.
    I believe we can take those steps via anti-trust, public takeover (yay! pure communism!), enhanced regulation (don’t ask me for specifics…I don’t know an algorithm from algae)…but how about removing their patent rights? Then perhaps, we would truly have a “marketplace of ideas” by reducing barriers to entry.
    Just a stab at it.

  72. and, if we don’t want a handful of corporate actors – literally, you can count them on one hand – to be able to decide what should and should not be available in the marketplace of ideas, then we should take steps as a society to make sure no corporate actor is in a position to do so.
    I believe we can take those steps via anti-trust, public takeover (yay! pure communism!), enhanced regulation (don’t ask me for specifics…I don’t know an algorithm from algae)…but how about removing their patent rights? Then perhaps, we would truly have a “marketplace of ideas” by reducing barriers to entry.
    Just a stab at it.

  75. we could start by not letting them buy every other company that’s working in the same general domain and market.
    baby steps.

  76. we could start by not letting them buy every other company that’s working in the same general domain and market.
    baby steps.

  77. so, a funny story. with the joke mostly being on me.
    my first reaction to the events of last week were “I gotta go do something about this!”
    so, what do you do?
    I thought, maybe I’ll get a gun and just go hunting for Proud Boys and III%ers. Or, you know, just show up. Unfortunately, it appears there’s a learning curve involved in being effective with firearms, and those guys are a few steps ahead of me. Plus, my wife said “no”. She was pretty clear about it, in a non-directive but emphatic way. Plus, I doubt the DC and Capitol cops and the FBI would appreciate my gung-ho volunteer spirit.
    So, what else? I checked the maximum age for the National Guard. I’m off by about 30 years.
    OK, maybe Civil Defense. Remember Civil Defense? I’m showing my age here.
    Turns out there is no Civil Defense anymore. At least as a public thing.
    There is some vestigial thing – looks like some random dude hijacked the brand and put up a straight-outa-1995 website, complete with “lorem ipsum dolor sit amet” orphan pages. Some stuff for sale, too, including some kind of flamethrower / CB radio combo, for just under $2K.
    How could you go wrong at that price?
    The guy natters on for a while about the de-evolution of society in the big cities into lawless criminal anarky (sic), etc etc etc blah blah blah.
    I looked out the window to see if the ravening hordes had shown up on my block yet.
    Nope, not yet.
    So I guess Civil Defense isn’t for me, either. With or without flamethrower.
    I suppose I’ll just leave it to the pros.
    Sometimes I just have to laugh at myself. Actually, most times I have to laugh at myself. And if I don’t, my wife will, which is just one of the many reasons I love her.
    A good friend of ours has a kid in DC, attending American U. She was all fired up about attending the inauguration, because she’s a young person living in a big city where exciting things are happening and it’s the first time she’s ever voted.
    Looks like that ain’t gonna happen, due to the public ban (see earlier post).
    Her mom will be relieved.
    Stay safe out there, everybody, and let your friends and loved ones know you’re thinking about them. We’ll get through this, one way or another.

  78. so, a funny story. with the joke mostly being on me.
    my first reaction to the events of last week were “I gotta go do something about this!”
    so, what do you do?
    I thought, maybe I’ll get a gun and just go hunting for Proud Boys and III%ers. Or, you know, just show up. Unfortunately, it appears there’s a learning curve involved in being effective with firearms, and those guys are a few steps ahead of me. Plus, my wife said “no”. She was pretty clear about it, in a non-directive but emphatic way. Plus, I doubt the DC and Capitol cops and the FBI would appreciate my gung-ho volunteer spirit.
    So, what else? I checked the maximum age for the National Guard. I’m off by about 30 years.
    OK, maybe Civil Defense. Remember Civil Defense? I’m showing my age here.
    Turns out there is no Civil Defense anymore. At least as a public thing.
    There is some vestigial thing – looks like some random dude hijacked the brand and put up a straight-outa-1995 website, complete with “lorem ipsum dolor sit amet” orphan pages. Some stuff for sale, too, including some kind of flamethrower / CB radio combo, for just under $2K.
    How could you go wrong at that price?
    The guy natters on for a while about the de-evolution of society in the big cities into lawless criminal anarky (sic), etc etc etc blah blah blah.
    I looked out the window to see if the ravening hordes had shown up on my block yet.
    Nope, not yet.
    So I guess Civil Defense isn’t for me, either. With or without flamethrower.
    I suppose I’ll just leave it to the pros.
    Sometimes I just have to laugh at myself. Actually, most times I have to laugh at myself. And if I don’t, my wife will, which is just one of the many reasons I love her.
    A good friend of ours has a kid in DC, attending American U. She was all fired up about attending the inauguration, because she’s a young person living in a big city where exciting things are happening and it’s the first time she’s ever voted.
    Looks like that ain’t gonna happen, due to the public ban (see earlier post).
    Her mom will be relieved.
    Stay safe out there, everybody, and let your friends and loved ones know you’re thinking about them. We’ll get through this, one way or another.

  79. Public utilities are not funded by ad revenue.
    Not sure I remember that being part of the definition. Granted, it would be unusual, but….

  80. Public utilities are not funded by ad revenue.
    Not sure I remember that being part of the definition. Granted, it would be unusual, but….

  81. I looked out the window to see if the ravening hordes had shown up on my block yet.
    LOL.
    Reversing the logic, you might think that since I live in a rural area, the other ravening hordes would be on my doorstep. Not so far; Maine is not, after all, Idaho.
    In fact, the article I linked quoted the Boston FBI guy saying “At this point in time, the FBI Boston Division is not in possession of any intelligence indicating any planned, armed protests at the four state capitals in our area of responsibility (ME, MA, NH, and RI) from January 17-20, 2021.”
    So, 46 states.

  82. I looked out the window to see if the ravening hordes had shown up on my block yet.
    LOL.
    Reversing the logic, you might think that since I live in a rural area, the other ravening hordes would be on my doorstep. Not so far; Maine is not, after all, Idaho.
    In fact, the article I linked quoted the Boston FBI guy saying “At this point in time, the FBI Boston Division is not in possession of any intelligence indicating any planned, armed protests at the four state capitals in our area of responsibility (ME, MA, NH, and RI) from January 17-20, 2021.”
    So, 46 states.

  83. I suppose I’ll just leave it to the pros.
    You are so great, in every possible way.
    I’m constantly thinking that I should learn to shoot a gun, but am I going to buy one? Where would I put it? I haven’t totally decided not to do it, but yeah, it’s a commitment.
    I’m really happy to be part of the ObWi community, and apologize to GftNC for being disgruntled yesterday. I get depressed, but so do we all, and I hope we are friends.

  84. I suppose I’ll just leave it to the pros.
    You are so great, in every possible way.
    I’m constantly thinking that I should learn to shoot a gun, but am I going to buy one? Where would I put it? I haven’t totally decided not to do it, but yeah, it’s a commitment.
    I’m really happy to be part of the ObWi community, and apologize to GftNC for being disgruntled yesterday. I get depressed, but so do we all, and I hope we are friends.

  85. I’m ready to join RLM – Russell’s Liberal Militia. I want to be the explosives and electronic-surveillance expert. Or maybe fly the helicopter. Or maybe the martial arts/hand-to-hand combat specialist. I’ll have to think about it. I don’t want to rush into anything.

  86. I’m ready to join RLM – Russell’s Liberal Militia. I want to be the explosives and electronic-surveillance expert. Or maybe fly the helicopter. Or maybe the martial arts/hand-to-hand combat specialist. I’ll have to think about it. I don’t want to rush into anything.

  87. I don’t want to be Debbie Downer, so maybe talk me down, folks.
    I see a massive presence at the inauguration, and any protests broken up really quickly. I then see photos from the day, ideally of young white guys being subdued sent out along with statements that this is the libs plan. We are then treated to an indeterminate period of attacks on soft targets. Bomb a black church? They had a BLM banner! Smash the window of an organic cafe? They had avocado toast on the menu. It will be advertised as the situation that the liberals wanted.
    The Atlantic article from Sept had this
    On that front, a new study from the Vanderbilt University political scientist Larry M. Bartels offers important—and ominous—findings. Bartels found that antidemocratic and authoritarian ideas have secured a substantial foothold within the GOP’s electoral coalition. In a national survey he conducted in January, just over half of Republican voters (including both self-identified Republicans and independents who lean toward the party) strongly or somewhat agreed with the statement that “the traditional American way of life is disappearing so fast that we may have to use force to save it.” Just under half agreed that “strong leaders sometimes have to bend the rules in order to get things done.” About two in five agreed that “a time will come when patriotic Americans have to take the law into their own hands.” And almost three-fourths concurred that “it is hard to trust the results of elections when so many people will vote for anyone who offers a handout.”
    Strikingly, less than one-fourth of Republicans disagreed with any of these statements. (No more than 8 percent strongly disagreed with any of them.) The rest described themselves as unsure.
    Equally remarkable in Bartels’s research: The key predictor of which Republicans were most receptive to ditching democratic rules wasn’t age or education or any other demographic factor. Instead, hostility toward the nation’s growing racial and ethnic diversity—the central chord of Trump’s messaging—was the single best predictor of a willingness to abandon democratic precepts. Close behind was hostility toward cultural change, such as greater acceptance of gay rights.
    That’s how I see things going. Anyone tell me why that is not going to happen?

  88. I don’t want to be Debbie Downer, so maybe talk me down, folks.
    I see a massive presence at the inauguration, and any protests broken up really quickly. I then see photos from the day, ideally of young white guys being subdued sent out along with statements that this is the libs plan. We are then treated to an indeterminate period of attacks on soft targets. Bomb a black church? They had a BLM banner! Smash the window of an organic cafe? They had avocado toast on the menu. It will be advertised as the situation that the liberals wanted.
    The Atlantic article from Sept had this
    On that front, a new study from the Vanderbilt University political scientist Larry M. Bartels offers important—and ominous—findings. Bartels found that antidemocratic and authoritarian ideas have secured a substantial foothold within the GOP’s electoral coalition. In a national survey he conducted in January, just over half of Republican voters (including both self-identified Republicans and independents who lean toward the party) strongly or somewhat agreed with the statement that “the traditional American way of life is disappearing so fast that we may have to use force to save it.” Just under half agreed that “strong leaders sometimes have to bend the rules in order to get things done.” About two in five agreed that “a time will come when patriotic Americans have to take the law into their own hands.” And almost three-fourths concurred that “it is hard to trust the results of elections when so many people will vote for anyone who offers a handout.”
    Strikingly, less than one-fourth of Republicans disagreed with any of these statements. (No more than 8 percent strongly disagreed with any of them.) The rest described themselves as unsure.
    Equally remarkable in Bartels’s research: The key predictor of which Republicans were most receptive to ditching democratic rules wasn’t age or education or any other demographic factor. Instead, hostility toward the nation’s growing racial and ethnic diversity—the central chord of Trump’s messaging—was the single best predictor of a willingness to abandon democratic precepts. Close behind was hostility toward cultural change, such as greater acceptance of gay rights.
    That’s how I see things going. Anyone tell me why that is not going to happen?

  89. maybe talk me down, folks.
    Not me. All of that sounds exactly right. I’m not sure we’ll get through the inauguration without major incident, otherwise all of the above seems right on.
    Haters gotta hate. I don’t know why. In the United States, haters can ammo up and kill people with relative ease, so here we are. Frightened angry people are dangerous.
    We are, not headed for, but in, nous’ world of chronic violence that doesn’t quite reach to the level of full-on war. This country has spent at least half its history in that state, with a brief episode of no-kidding overt warfare, largely for the same reasons given in the Atlantic piece, and apparently we haven’t learned our lesson well enough to move beyond it yet.
    It’s not gonna stop until we wise up. Probably not gonna happen in my lifetime. Maybe the millennials will get it together, after all of us boomers are dead and gone. Maybe not.
    We all need to keep our heads and not let it make us freak out, but it’s here. Not trying to negative, just realistic, because you gotta see and acknowledge the reality if you’re gonna have any chance of dealing with it.
    Don’t let it blind you to the good stuff, but don’t pretend it isn’t there.

  90. maybe talk me down, folks.
    Not me. All of that sounds exactly right. I’m not sure we’ll get through the inauguration without major incident, otherwise all of the above seems right on.
    Haters gotta hate. I don’t know why. In the United States, haters can ammo up and kill people with relative ease, so here we are. Frightened angry people are dangerous.
    We are, not headed for, but in, nous’ world of chronic violence that doesn’t quite reach to the level of full-on war. This country has spent at least half its history in that state, with a brief episode of no-kidding overt warfare, largely for the same reasons given in the Atlantic piece, and apparently we haven’t learned our lesson well enough to move beyond it yet.
    It’s not gonna stop until we wise up. Probably not gonna happen in my lifetime. Maybe the millennials will get it together, after all of us boomers are dead and gone. Maybe not.
    We all need to keep our heads and not let it make us freak out, but it’s here. Not trying to negative, just realistic, because you gotta see and acknowledge the reality if you’re gonna have any chance of dealing with it.
    Don’t let it blind you to the good stuff, but don’t pretend it isn’t there.

  91. I’m constantly thinking that I should learn to shoot a gun, but am I going to buy one?
    FWIW, my understanding is that many firing ranges have firearms you can rent for purposes of practice. Most will probably also be happy to provide you with basic firearm handling training, or at least be able to refer you to someone who can do that.
    So you can most likely learn to safely handle and operate a firearm and shoot it accurately without having to actually own one.
    Along similar lines, it’s not a bad idea to have some basic self-defense skills. Doesn’t have to be ninja level, just enough to let you avoid serious harm should someone attack you.
    Most of us (I hope) will never need these things, but they are not bad skills to have in your back pocket, as it were. Be attentive to your state of mind, don’t get into stuff that’s beyond your comfort level, but there’s nothing necessarily wrong with being able to defend yourself if need be.

  92. I’m constantly thinking that I should learn to shoot a gun, but am I going to buy one?
    FWIW, my understanding is that many firing ranges have firearms you can rent for purposes of practice. Most will probably also be happy to provide you with basic firearm handling training, or at least be able to refer you to someone who can do that.
    So you can most likely learn to safely handle and operate a firearm and shoot it accurately without having to actually own one.
    Along similar lines, it’s not a bad idea to have some basic self-defense skills. Doesn’t have to be ninja level, just enough to let you avoid serious harm should someone attack you.
    Most of us (I hope) will never need these things, but they are not bad skills to have in your back pocket, as it were. Be attentive to your state of mind, don’t get into stuff that’s beyond your comfort level, but there’s nothing necessarily wrong with being able to defend yourself if need be.

  93. Sorry wj, russel, but comparing social media to the letter pages of a newspaper just shows that you don’t understand how social media works – they’re not just “passing along” speech.
    And call me an old school European statist, but the power to regulate speech should not be left to market forces who operate according to the profit motive.

  94. Sorry wj, russel, but comparing social media to the letter pages of a newspaper just shows that you don’t understand how social media works – they’re not just “passing along” speech.
    And call me an old school European statist, but the power to regulate speech should not be left to market forces who operate according to the profit motive.

  97. also, too – via BJ, there is this.
    A lot of the folks who showed up at the Capitol were naive clueless knuckleheads, full of themselves and full of crazy divorced-from-reality narratives about revolution and “taking their country back”.
    nous and Pro Bono have argued for treating those people differently than, for instance, the zip-tie boys. And I’m fine with that.
    But all of these people – every one of them – have now publicly affiliated themselves with seditious violent enemies of the state. And probably left a public record of it, most likely including personal identifying information and pictures of themselves in the act, on the most public medium ever invented.
    The state has resources they cannot imagine, and an army, and a powerful instinct and mandate for self-preservation.
    I don’t wish ill on the folks who are, actually, just naive knuckleheads who have made themselves more or less insane from a steady diet of QAnon and OAN and similar. But they’re swimming in deep water now.
    The Proud Boys say “Fuck Around And Find Out”. Well, some folks, most likely including some of the Proud Boys themselves, are going to find out.
    As the author of the piece says:
    If that isn’t what you signed up for, now would be a good time to get out.
    Shit’s gonna get real, in more ways and in more directions than one. These folks took their shot at the king – the real king, not asshole Donny POTUS – and missed.
    That ain’t no game, and the feds don’t play. If you have friends or family who are into this stuff, you may want to mention that this could be a good time to chill on the Q.

  98. also, too – via BJ, there is this.
    A lot of the folks who showed up at the Capitol were naive clueless knuckleheads, full of themselves and full of crazy divorced-from-reality narratives about revolution and “taking their country back”.
    nous and Pro Bono have argued for treating those people differently than, for instance, the zip-tie boys. And I’m fine with that.
    But all of these people – every one of them – have now publicly affiliated themselves with seditious violent enemies of the state. And probably left a public record of it, most likely including personal identifying information and pictures of themselves in the act, on the most public medium ever invented.
    The state has resources they cannot imagine, and an army, and a powerful instinct and mandate for self-preservation.
    I don’t wish ill on the folks who are, actually, just naive knuckleheads who have made themselves more or less insane from a steady diet of QAnon and OAN and similar. But they’re swimming in deep water now.
    The Proud Boys say “Fuck Around And Find Out”. Well, some folks, most likely including some of the Proud Boys themselves, are going to find out.
    As the author of the piece says:
    If that isn’t what you signed up for, now would be a good time to get out.
    Shit’s gonna get real, in more ways and in more directions than one. These folks took their shot at the king – the real king, not asshole Donny POTUS – and missed.
    That ain’t no game, and the feds don’t play. If you have friends or family who are into this stuff, you may want to mention that this could be a good time to chill on the Q.

  99. but the power to regulate speech should not be left to market forces who operate according to the profit motive.
    you mistake my comment for an endorsement of the various platforms’ policies. it was merely a recognition of reality.
    for good or ill – and opinions will no doubt vary – the arguments of European commissioners won’t be very persuasive here in the US. they may, and should, and hopefully will, be persuasive and effective in the EU.
    but not here.
    this is the US. we love our country, value personal rights, but we worship money.

  100. but the power to regulate speech should not be left to market forces who operate according to the profit motive.
    you mistake my comment for an endorsement of the various platforms’ policies. it was merely a recognition of reality.
    for good or ill – and opinions will no doubt vary – the arguments of European commissioners won’t be very persuasive here in the US. they may, and should, and hopefully will, be persuasive and effective in the EU.
    but not here.
    this is the US. we love our country, value personal rights, but we worship money.

  101. Citing that article twice seems not like overkill.
    https://arcdigital.media/qanon-woke-up-the-real-deep-state-72bbfcb79488
    The perps and their co-conspirators and financiers inside the government and the conservative movement claim, as Limbaugh always has, that they are merely yelling “THEATER! in a crowded fire”.
    I saw an account by one of the crypto-Christian conservative Trump louts who broke into the Capitol, that as he paused outside the door he was about to enter, he prayed to his so-called god for guidance … “Should I … or not?” and God, the voices inside his head, didn’t give him a “NO”, (and since he wasn’t black, no one thought to place a knee on his neck, so in he went.
    These ilk cannot be talked to or reasoned with. Their religion is meth and confers fake superhuman and superspreader powers on them.
    Hell, they wear a Covid-19 infection like a stigmata, and they share it with us, and they murder us with it, like a holy benediction.
    The Capitol Hill cop who was beaten and trampled to death by the murderous conservative mob, including with a flagpole bearing an uncertain flag, doing the bidding of the White House and so-called elected government officials inside his place of employment, who he was trying to protect.
    We’re in 9/11, al Akhbar, here-I-come 72 virgins territory here, but of course, given their dour dumb fake Christianity, there’s only one virgin and she’s already been defiled by the entire Falwell family.
    I’m certain at least one pilot hijacker on 9/11 secretly asked Muhammad at least once whether slitting the throats of the real pilots with box cutters and revving that plane into the fast-approaching towers of the World Trade Center was absolutely necessary, and upon hearing no response from the voices in his head, plunged on.
    We have as much chance of talking to these brain-washed fanatic filth as a 9/11 passenger fruitlessly banging the drinks trolley into the locked cockpit door.
    The conservative movement’s best day in the 21rst century was 9/11. They fucking loved it.
    It justified them. It was thrilling for them.
    We must erect memorial monuments to this horrific event on January 6 … a big one in Washington DC, to begin with.
    And, we need to learn what and where the Aleppo of the evil sub-American conservative movement is, it’s exact coordinates, it’s caves and bunkers, and make it our righteous patriotic business to leave nothing and no one standing.
    At this moment, the American government is rudderless, a half-assed terrorist is in the pilot’s seat, and there is not a clown shoe among his millions of co-conspirators on the plane, and like Flight 93 on 9/11 over Pennsylvania, the craft is flying upside down and we’re hanging from our seat belts.
    Never bring a drinks trolley to a purely fascist ideological and radical religious fight.
    “but, we worship money”
    Yeah, the headline on some stock market sites said the Twitter ban of Trump would cost the company 10% of their profits and the stock was down a similar amount.
    Like maybe this monstrous bullshit was on a par with Larry Hagman being killed off in “Dallas”, or Trump himself leaving “The Apprentice”.
    My God, how will will we get on with the franchise and without our profit center?
    Well, there’s always the fat residuals for endless reruns and the conservative movement is already plotting those business decisions and let’s not forget ….. the sequels!
    They have a frighteningly deep bench of white sharks, acid-spewing, triple-jawed aliens, and sharply inclining learning curve velociraptors in pre-production as we speak and plenty of green screen left in bullshit psychotic America on which to project them.
    Because America is fundamentally an unserious, full of shit confection as currently conservatively configured and the rule of law and the Constitution, if they say anything about combating and destroying Trump’s perverted messianic Roy Cohn Mafiaso modus operandi, we seem not to be able to decide what chapter and verse, if they even exist, should apply, and even when we can find them and cite them, along comes some McConnell bullshit conservative with 72 virgin yeah-buts and codicils about why we cannot act.

  102. Citing that article twice seems not like overkill.
    https://arcdigital.media/qanon-woke-up-the-real-deep-state-72bbfcb79488
    The perps and their co-conspirators and financiers inside the government and the conservative movement claim, as Limbaugh always has, that they are merely yelling “THEATER! in a crowded fire”.
    I saw an account by one of the crypto-Christian conservative Trump louts who broke into the Capitol, that as he paused outside the door he was about to enter, he prayed to his so-called god for guidance … “Should I … or not?” and God, the voices inside his head, didn’t give him a “NO”, (and since he wasn’t black, no one thought to place a knee on his neck, so in he went.
    These ilk cannot be talked to or reasoned with. Their religion is meth and confers fake superhuman and superspreader powers on them.
    Hell, they wear a Covid-19 infection like a stigmata, and they share it with us, and they murder us with it, like a holy benediction.
    The Capitol Hill cop who was beaten and trampled to death by the murderous conservative mob, including with a flagpole bearing an uncertain flag, doing the bidding of the White House and so-called elected government officials inside his place of employment, who he was trying to protect.
    We’re in 9/11, al Akhbar, here-I-come 72 virgins territory here, but of course, given their dour dumb fake Christianity, there’s only one virgin and she’s already been defiled by the entire Falwell family.
    I’m certain at least one pilot hijacker on 9/11 secretly asked Muhammad at least once whether slitting the throats of the real pilots with box cutters and revving that plane into the fast-approaching towers of the World Trade Center was absolutely necessary, and upon hearing no response from the voices in his head, plunged on.
    We have as much chance of talking to these brain-washed fanatic filth as a 9/11 passenger fruitlessly banging the drinks trolley into the locked cockpit door.
    The conservative movement’s best day in the 21rst century was 9/11. They fucking loved it.
    It justified them. It was thrilling for them.
    We must erect memorial monuments to this horrific event on January 6 … a big one in Washington DC, to begin with.
    And, we need to learn what and where the Aleppo of the evil sub-American conservative movement is, it’s exact coordinates, it’s caves and bunkers, and make it our righteous patriotic business to leave nothing and no one standing.
    At this moment, the American government is rudderless, a half-assed terrorist is in the pilot’s seat, and there is not a clown shoe among his millions of co-conspirators on the plane, and like Flight 93 on 9/11 over Pennsylvania, the craft is flying upside down and we’re hanging from our seat belts.
    Never bring a drinks trolley to a purely fascist ideological and radical religious fight.
    “but, we worship money”
    Yeah, the headline on some stock market sites said the Twitter ban of Trump would cost the company 10% of their profits and the stock was down a similar amount.
    Like maybe this monstrous bullshit was on a par with Larry Hagman being killed off in “Dallas”, or Trump himself leaving “The Apprentice”.
    My God, how will will we get on with the franchise and without our profit center?
    Well, there’s always the fat residuals for endless reruns and the conservative movement is already plotting those business decisions and let’s not forget ….. the sequels!
    They have a frighteningly deep bench of white sharks, acid-spewing, triple-jawed aliens, and sharply inclining learning curve velociraptors in pre-production as we speak and plenty of green screen left in bullshit psychotic America on which to project them.
    Because America is fundamentally an unserious, full of shit confection as currently conservatively configured and the rule of law and the Constitution, if they say anything about combating and destroying Trump’s perverted messianic Roy Cohn Mafiaso modus operandi, we seem not to be able to decide what chapter and verse, if they even exist, should apply, and even when we can find them and cite them, along comes some McConnell bullshit conservative with 72 virgin yeah-buts and codicils about why we cannot act.

  103. And, we need to learn what and where the Aleppo of the evil sub-American conservative movement is, it’s exact coordinates
    40.758514, -73.9825968

  104. And, we need to learn what and where the Aleppo of the evil sub-American conservative movement is, it’s exact coordinates
    40.758514, -73.9825968

  105. sapient,
    Thank you for your apology, which I accept with caveats. I have an allergy to being told what to say, how to say it, how to behave, what words to use etc (always excepting e.g. the posting rules). I also have an allergy to being told what I think when it is not actually what I think. I have no problem with argument, enquiry etc, when done in good faith.
    The reason I include caveats, is that this kind of approach is a recurring motif with you, which accounts for the escalated nature of my response. I hope we can come up with a “safe word” I can use to remind you, in case late at night or in the heat of the moment you forget yourself and issue “requests”, demands or instructions. I would be receptive and grateful for any suggestions of such a safe word, from any quarter. Apart from this, we’re all good.

  106. sapient,
    Thank you for your apology, which I accept with caveats. I have an allergy to being told what to say, how to say it, how to behave, what words to use etc (always excepting e.g. the posting rules). I also have an allergy to being told what I think when it is not actually what I think. I have no problem with argument, enquiry etc, when done in good faith.
    The reason I include caveats, is that this kind of approach is a recurring motif with you, which accounts for the escalated nature of my response. I hope we can come up with a “safe word” I can use to remind you, in case late at night or in the heat of the moment you forget yourself and issue “requests”, demands or instructions. I would be receptive and grateful for any suggestions of such a safe word, from any quarter. Apart from this, we’re all good.

  107. While thousands of hired killers tried to get to Democrats and liberals inside the Capitol, and murdered police, here’s video of attempted murder (two Democrats already assaulted with intent to kill) by the usual suspects INSIDE the building.
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/superspreader
    It’s easy to tell who the armed bank robbers are now during a pandemic bank heist.
    They are only ones not wearing masks.

  108. While thousands of hired killers tried to get to Democrats and liberals inside the Capitol, and murdered police, here’s video of attempted murder (two Democrats already assaulted with intent to kill) by the usual suspects INSIDE the building.
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/superspreader
    It’s easy to tell who the armed bank robbers are now during a pandemic bank heist.
    They are only ones not wearing masks.

  111. That guy was a much better poster child than George Soros, if one was looking for a way to sell antisemitism. Is it ironic or just telling that he probably had lots of peddlers in that selfsame poison on his payroll?

  112. That guy was a much better poster child than George Soros, if one was looking for a way to sell antisemitism. Is it ironic or just telling that he probably had lots of peddlers in that selfsame poison on his payroll?

  113. Deutsche Bank is cutting off all future business with Trump. Rosemary Vrablic, who managed their business with Trump, resigned at the end of last year.
    The man is, deservedly, radioactive.

  114. Deutsche Bank is cutting off all future business with Trump. Rosemary Vrablic, who managed their business with Trump, resigned at the end of last year.
    The man is, deservedly, radioactive.

  115. I want to endorse cleek’s link. It’s a really interesting read.
    My sister-in-law has always been a kook and believed in nonsensical alternatives to the “official” story. Even the old, commonly laughed-at stuff like chem trails (and fluoridated water as Nazi mind-control! – I didn’t even know that was a thing).
    She is now off in Q land. She wanted to head to DC for the “rally” last week, but didn’t only because she wasn’t able to. She’s all-in for tRump and lashing out at people on social media. It’s not good.
    A Game Designer’s Analysis Of QAnon
    Posted by: cleek | January 11, 2021 at 05:43 PM
    https://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2021/01/just-trying-to-help-here.html?cid=6a00d834515c2369e20263e987af81200b#comment-6a00d834515c2369e20263e987af81200b

  116. I want to endorse cleek’s link. It’s a really interesting read.
    My sister-in-law has always been a kook and believed in nonsensical alternatives to the “official” story. Even the old, commonly laughed-at stuff like chem trails (and fluoridated water as Nazi mind-control! – I didn’t even know that was a thing).
    She is now off in Q land. She wanted to head to DC for the “rally” last week, but didn’t only because she wasn’t able to. She’s all-in for tRump and lashing out at people on social media. It’s not good.
    A Game Designer’s Analysis Of QAnon
    Posted by: cleek | January 11, 2021 at 05:43 PM
    https://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2021/01/just-trying-to-help-here.html?cid=6a00d834515c2369e20263e987af81200b#comment-6a00d834515c2369e20263e987af81200b

  117. So, I am not concerned about a bunch of loud mouths on the internet planning attacks on various places over the next week. Realistically they have no chance to do anything meaningful even if some of those guys actually get up in the morning, put on their camo that they wear to go duck hunting, kiss their wife or husband goodbye, drop off the kids at school and show up. There just aren’t enough of those guys to do much that we haven’t dealt with before.
    If you believe that the military was slow to respond in protecting the Capitol, they dragged their feet providing the National Guard and the leaderships motives are suspect, then the 10,000 troops heading to DC is a bigger danger to democracy. I would want to know how they were outfitted, what equipment they were bringing, who was leading them on the ground and what the rest of the military level of alert is.
    If we want to worry about a coup, they are who could actually make it happen.
    Im sure that declaring a state of emergency and sending troops in who ended up being on the bad guys side was the plot of some Bruce Willis movie.

  118. So, I am not concerned about a bunch of loud mouths on the internet planning attacks on various places over the next week. Realistically they have no chance to do anything meaningful even if some of those guys actually get up in the morning, put on their camo that they wear to go duck hunting, kiss their wife or husband goodbye, drop off the kids at school and show up. There just aren’t enough of those guys to do much that we haven’t dealt with before.
    If you believe that the military was slow to respond in protecting the Capitol, they dragged their feet providing the National Guard and the leaderships motives are suspect, then the 10,000 troops heading to DC is a bigger danger to democracy. I would want to know how they were outfitted, what equipment they were bringing, who was leading them on the ground and what the rest of the military level of alert is.
    If we want to worry about a coup, they are who could actually make it happen.
    Im sure that declaring a state of emergency and sending troops in who ended up being on the bad guys side was the plot of some Bruce Willis movie.

  119. Realistically they have no chance to do anything meaningful…
    Except kill people. I don’t think anyone is proposing that they’ll take over the country.
    There just aren’t enough of those guys to do much that we haven’t dealt with before.
    The resources in DC, assuming they aren’t the ones attempting a coup, will be far greater than what will be available at state houses across the country. Before last week, we hadn’t “dealt with” a bunch of people storming the Capitol and threatening our legislators.
    What we’re talking about is yahoos shooting people or taking them hostage. “Dealing with” that might include shooting the yahoos and people on both sides dying. Even if that all falls well short of an overthrow of government, it’s still a steaming f**king pile of unnecessary sh*t.

  120. Realistically they have no chance to do anything meaningful…
    Except kill people. I don’t think anyone is proposing that they’ll take over the country.
    There just aren’t enough of those guys to do much that we haven’t dealt with before.
    The resources in DC, assuming they aren’t the ones attempting a coup, will be far greater than what will be available at state houses across the country. Before last week, we hadn’t “dealt with” a bunch of people storming the Capitol and threatening our legislators.
    What we’re talking about is yahoos shooting people or taking them hostage. “Dealing with” that might include shooting the yahoos and people on both sides dying. Even if that all falls well short of an overthrow of government, it’s still a steaming f**king pile of unnecessary sh*t.

  121. It is a pile of shit but I suspect that there will be very few places where there will be numbers large enough so the fuckwads have the nerve to shoot, knowing they will take fire back. I hope that number is zero. I do recognize the possibility that it could be nonzero at which point I want everyone standing in line with the first person to fire to be shot. Then it will stop.

  122. It is a pile of shit but I suspect that there will be very few places where there will be numbers large enough so the fuckwads have the nerve to shoot, knowing they will take fire back. I hope that number is zero. I do recognize the possibility that it could be nonzero at which point I want everyone standing in line with the first person to fire to be shot. Then it will stop.

  123. https://blackthen.com/mccomb-mississippi-bomb-capital-of-the-world-1964/
    The small town of McComb is located outside of Jackson, Mississippi, the state’s capital. It is noted that over a dozen bombings, riots, and other violent acts took place during that summer in McComb. If you were black and involved in any type of civil rights activities, such as voting or providing assistance to civil rights workers, you were considered a threat and targeted by whites.
    Blacks were being arrested for any and everything that white people felt threatened by their being. Two teenage black students at a freedom school, who had been receiving harassing phone calls, were arrested for using profanity over the phone. The students were tried without counsel and sentenced to one year in jail under the “Mississippi Phone Harassment Law.” The individuals who were calling and harassing the teenagers received no jail time.
    Churches and businesses were burned down. It was not uncommon to go to bed and hear explosive sounds during the night. No protection was provided to the black communities, as most of the law officials were part of the problem.. Law officials would only arrive to hide evidence, intimidate victims, or make victims disappear altogether.
    By September 20, 1964, blacks in McComb were fed-up when the home of freedom fighter “Mama Quinn” was bombed. However, Mama Quinn was arrested for bombing her own home. Blacks had accepted the fact that there wouldn’t be any protection for exercising their constitutional rights from local and federal authorities. So, they decided it was time to take things into their own hands.
    https://www.crmvet.org/info/mccomb1964.pdf
    None of them had the nerve to shoot out in the open, which is why I said ‘soft targets’.

  124. https://blackthen.com/mccomb-mississippi-bomb-capital-of-the-world-1964/
    The small town of McComb is located outside of Jackson, Mississippi, the state’s capital. It is noted that over a dozen bombings, riots, and other violent acts took place during that summer in McComb. If you were black and involved in any type of civil rights activities, such as voting or providing assistance to civil rights workers, you were considered a threat and targeted by whites.
    Blacks were being arrested for any and everything that white people felt threatened by their being. Two teenage black students at a freedom school, who had been receiving harassing phone calls, were arrested for using profanity over the phone. The students were tried without counsel and sentenced to one year in jail under the “Mississippi Phone Harassment Law.” The individuals who were calling and harassing the teenagers received no jail time.
    Churches and businesses were burned down. It was not uncommon to go to bed and hear explosive sounds during the night. No protection was provided to the black communities, as most of the law officials were part of the problem.. Law officials would only arrive to hide evidence, intimidate victims, or make victims disappear altogether.
    By September 20, 1964, blacks in McComb were fed-up when the home of freedom fighter “Mama Quinn” was bombed. However, Mama Quinn was arrested for bombing her own home. Blacks had accepted the fact that there wouldn’t be any protection for exercising their constitutional rights from local and federal authorities. So, they decided it was time to take things into their own hands.
    https://www.crmvet.org/info/mccomb1964.pdf
    None of them had the nerve to shoot out in the open, which is why I said ‘soft targets’.

  125. So, I am not concerned about a bunch of loud mouths on the internet planning attacks on various places over the next week.
    what do you think last Wednesday was?
    the 10,000 troops heading to DC is a bigger danger to democracy.
    we have a specific recent example – recent as in, last Wednesday – of a mob storming the Capitol, killing a cop, assaulting all and sundry who were not of their number, destroying property both within and without the Capitol, and a smaller but significant number of people with apparent military or police training and background trying to capture and possibly kill members of Congress.
    to my knowledge, we have no examples of National Guard troops, or any branch of the military, taking hostile action toward any member of government. correct me if I’m wrong.
    I have to say I find your thought process puzzling.
    In any case, if Trump manages to turn the military, then we’re fucked. It’s game over. There isn’t even a discussion to have at that point.
    I don’t see that happening, FWIW.

  126. So, I am not concerned about a bunch of loud mouths on the internet planning attacks on various places over the next week.
    what do you think last Wednesday was?
    the 10,000 troops heading to DC is a bigger danger to democracy.
    we have a specific recent example – recent as in, last Wednesday – of a mob storming the Capitol, killing a cop, assaulting all and sundry who were not of their number, destroying property both within and without the Capitol, and a smaller but significant number of people with apparent military or police training and background trying to capture and possibly kill members of Congress.
    to my knowledge, we have no examples of National Guard troops, or any branch of the military, taking hostile action toward any member of government. correct me if I’m wrong.
    I have to say I find your thought process puzzling.
    In any case, if Trump manages to turn the military, then we’re fucked. It’s game over. There isn’t even a discussion to have at that point.
    I don’t see that happening, FWIW.

  127. I have to say I find your thought process puzzling.
    nothing a Republican does bothers Marty. everything a Democrat does bothers Marty.

  128. I have to say I find your thought process puzzling.
    nothing a Republican does bothers Marty. everything a Democrat does bothers Marty.

  131. My (second) reading of Marty’s comments @ 10.08 is that he worries that there may be clandestine Trump supporters organising within the military, National Guard etc, to mount a more effective coup attempt.
    And when he says I want everyone standing in line with the first person to fire to be shot. @10.27, I believe that he is talking about people within the coup attempt.
    Marty, is that a correct reading of what you meant?

  132. My (second) reading of Marty’s comments @ 10.08 is that he worries that there may be clandestine Trump supporters organising within the military, National Guard etc, to mount a more effective coup attempt.
    And when he says I want everyone standing in line with the first person to fire to be shot. @10.27, I believe that he is talking about people within the coup attempt.
    Marty, is that a correct reading of what you meant?

  135. I don’t think anyone is proposing that they’ll take over the country.
    well, they are. literally. that’s their mission.

  136. I don’t think anyone is proposing that they’ll take over the country.
    well, they are. literally. that’s their mission.

  137. Capitol Police briefed Democrats on Monday night about three more potentially gruesome demonstrations planned in the coming days, with one plot to encircle the U.S. Capitol and assassinate Democrats and some Republicans.
    On a private call Monday night, new leaders of the Capitol Police told House Democrats they were closely monitoring three separate plans that could pose serious threats to members of Congress as Washington prepares for Democrat Joe Biden’s presidential inauguration on Jan. 20.
    The first is a demonstration billed as the “largest armed protest ever to take place on American soil.”
    Another is a protest in honor of Ashli Babbitt, the woman killed while trying to climb into the Speaker’s Lobby during Wednesday’s pro-Trump siege of the Capitol.
    And another demonstration, which three members said was by far the most concerning plot, would involve insurrectionists forming a perimeter around the Capitol, the White House and the Supreme Court, and then blocking Democrats from entering the Capitol ― perhaps even killing them ― so that Republicans could take control of the government.

    “conservatives” are faux-outraged that people aren’t crying about “Portland and Seattle” right now (they get a peanut every time they mention Portland and Seattle). they are minimizing what happened in DC even as members of the seditious party are planning to kill more people in the name of Donald Trump.
    cast yourself back to 2013 and imagine the idea of Republicans planning mass murder in the name of Donald Trump. an utterly ridiculous thought, right?
    the GOP is an utterly ridiculous party.

  138. Capitol Police briefed Democrats on Monday night about three more potentially gruesome demonstrations planned in the coming days, with one plot to encircle the U.S. Capitol and assassinate Democrats and some Republicans.
    On a private call Monday night, new leaders of the Capitol Police told House Democrats they were closely monitoring three separate plans that could pose serious threats to members of Congress as Washington prepares for Democrat Joe Biden’s presidential inauguration on Jan. 20.
    The first is a demonstration billed as the “largest armed protest ever to take place on American soil.”
    Another is a protest in honor of Ashli Babbitt, the woman killed while trying to climb into the Speaker’s Lobby during Wednesday’s pro-Trump siege of the Capitol.
    And another demonstration, which three members said was by far the most concerning plot, would involve insurrectionists forming a perimeter around the Capitol, the White House and the Supreme Court, and then blocking Democrats from entering the Capitol ― perhaps even killing them ― so that Republicans could take control of the government.

    “conservatives” are faux-outraged that people aren’t crying about “Portland and Seattle” right now (they get a peanut every time they mention Portland and Seattle). they are minimizing what happened in DC even as members of the seditious party are planning to kill more people in the name of Donald Trump.
    cast yourself back to 2013 and imagine the idea of Republicans planning mass murder in the name of Donald Trump. an utterly ridiculous thought, right?
    the GOP is an utterly ridiculous party.

  139. I’m constantly thinking that I should learn to shoot a gun, but am I going to buy one? Where would I put it? I haven’t totally decided not to do it, but yeah, it’s a commitment.
    Unless you plan to really understand what it is you are doing, I’d advise against it. My dad spent 3 years, starting when I was 7, teaching us how to handle .22’s before letting us shoot 20 gauge shotguns on dove hunts. I was 13 before I was allowed to hunt deer. Since then, as a former hunting and shooting enthusiast, I’ve probably fired 20,000 rounds of rifle, pistol and shotgun shells.
    Yet, I’ve had no tactical training and I wouldn’t think of doing anything offensively with a weapon simply because of the ba-zillion things I don’t know. I could stand behind my door and shoot an intruder. That’s in my wheelhouse, but if you break that down, it’s me with a shotgun and one large, slow moving target trying to get through a door.
    Running around with a group of untrained, armed morons and trying to tangle with an organized military unit? No thanks. Those guys will just stay home, fantasize and do what so many across the spectrum do: furiously display the courage of the keyboard.
    That’s how I see things going. Anyone tell me why that is not going to happen?
    Probably because the authors are wrong. I know a ton of DT supporters. They don’t give two shits about skin color or gay people (we have gay couples and POC’s living and openly interacting in an otherwise pretty small and closed-in golf community that otherwise is a hotbed of DT worship). The assholes we saw at the capital, even if they are the tip of the iceberg, do not represent a very large iceberg.
    Dismissing wholesale political opponents–or reducing political opponents–as or to racists is a really tired, worn out trope. It continues to resonate in the usual circles, but outside that, it’s grown really stale. It’s a substitute for intellectual heavy lifting.
    There are racists on the right. On the left too. And in the AA and Hispanic communities. And in the Asian community. The Republican party does have a statistically significant number of racists to one degree or another (yes, Virgina, there are degrees of racism, depending on how you define that term).
    However, not being down with Ibran Kendi and his bizarre brand of anti-racism is not actual racism. It’s simply rejection of a patently stupid approach to race relations.
    Your 10:40 is more on target. They are, mostly, cowards. Dipshits playing soldier who have no idea what combat really is. There is probably a leavening of nutbags with prior military service who could be problematic if there was localized violence, but the dreaded privileged white males of America are not locking and loading to upend the coming intersectional paradise.
    I’ve laid low because things are pretty heated here. Now you have a sense of how others outside your zone felt about months and months of “mostly peaceful protests”. I’m not hearing diddly about de-militarizing the police, much less defunding them these days. I’m not sure how community workers would add value to a rampaging mob, regardless of the mob’s theoretical political orientation.
    Nor am I hearing any concern about loading up DC with the National Guard. I’m completely confident that this would be different if the protesting came from the left. BTW, I’m fine with calling out the Guard. We need them.
    Last note: if you want to see what happens to a police officer who has been de-militarized, spend some time watching the officer who was murdered get beaten to death. He had no helmut, no kevlar vest. IOW, he had no protection.
    We’ll see how long this new “law and order” religion lasts on the left. And how far it extends.

  140. I’m constantly thinking that I should learn to shoot a gun, but am I going to buy one? Where would I put it? I haven’t totally decided not to do it, but yeah, it’s a commitment.
    Unless you plan to really understand what it is you are doing, I’d advise against it. My dad spent 3 years, starting when I was 7, teaching us how to handle .22’s before letting us shoot 20 gauge shotguns on dove hunts. I was 13 before I was allowed to hunt deer. Since then, as a former hunting and shooting enthusiast, I’ve probably fired 20,000 rounds of rifle, pistol and shotgun shells.
    Yet, I’ve had no tactical training and I wouldn’t think of doing anything offensively with a weapon simply because of the ba-zillion things I don’t know. I could stand behind my door and shoot an intruder. That’s in my wheelhouse, but if you break that down, it’s me with a shotgun and one large, slow moving target trying to get through a door.
    Running around with a group of untrained, armed morons and trying to tangle with an organized military unit? No thanks. Those guys will just stay home, fantasize and do what so many across the spectrum do: furiously display the courage of the keyboard.
    That’s how I see things going. Anyone tell me why that is not going to happen?
    Probably because the authors are wrong. I know a ton of DT supporters. They don’t give two shits about skin color or gay people (we have gay couples and POC’s living and openly interacting in an otherwise pretty small and closed-in golf community that otherwise is a hotbed of DT worship). The assholes we saw at the capital, even if they are the tip of the iceberg, do not represent a very large iceberg.
    Dismissing wholesale political opponents–or reducing political opponents–as or to racists is a really tired, worn out trope. It continues to resonate in the usual circles, but outside that, it’s grown really stale. It’s a substitute for intellectual heavy lifting.
    There are racists on the right. On the left too. And in the AA and Hispanic communities. And in the Asian community. The Republican party does have a statistically significant number of racists to one degree or another (yes, Virgina, there are degrees of racism, depending on how you define that term).
    However, not being down with Ibran Kendi and his bizarre brand of anti-racism is not actual racism. It’s simply rejection of a patently stupid approach to race relations.
    Your 10:40 is more on target. They are, mostly, cowards. Dipshits playing soldier who have no idea what combat really is. There is probably a leavening of nutbags with prior military service who could be problematic if there was localized violence, but the dreaded privileged white males of America are not locking and loading to upend the coming intersectional paradise.
    I’ve laid low because things are pretty heated here. Now you have a sense of how others outside your zone felt about months and months of “mostly peaceful protests”. I’m not hearing diddly about de-militarizing the police, much less defunding them these days. I’m not sure how community workers would add value to a rampaging mob, regardless of the mob’s theoretical political orientation.
    Nor am I hearing any concern about loading up DC with the National Guard. I’m completely confident that this would be different if the protesting came from the left. BTW, I’m fine with calling out the Guard. We need them.
    Last note: if you want to see what happens to a police officer who has been de-militarized, spend some time watching the officer who was murdered get beaten to death. He had no helmut, no kevlar vest. IOW, he had no protection.
    We’ll see how long this new “law and order” religion lasts on the left. And how far it extends.

  141. Nor am I hearing any concern about loading up DC with the National Guard.
    the Republican’s goal is literally to prevent the literal, noshit, ferreals overthrow of the US government – to kill representatives, to install Republican rule. that’s what many of these people are literally and openly advocating and planning.
    protests over law enforcement’s treatment of non-whites wasn’t about overthrowing the government. i condemned the destruction of property at the time and still do. but breaking windows is not trying to take over the government.
    different, right?

  142. Nor am I hearing any concern about loading up DC with the National Guard.
    the Republican’s goal is literally to prevent the literal, noshit, ferreals overthrow of the US government – to kill representatives, to install Republican rule. that’s what many of these people are literally and openly advocating and planning.
    protests over law enforcement’s treatment of non-whites wasn’t about overthrowing the government. i condemned the destruction of property at the time and still do. but breaking windows is not trying to take over the government.
    different, right?

  143. the Republican’s goal is literally to prevent the literal, noshit, ferreals overthrow of the US government
    argh
    the National Guard’s goal is literally to prevent the literal, noshit, ferreals overthrow of the US government

  144. the Republican’s goal is literally to prevent the literal, noshit, ferreals overthrow of the US government
    argh
    the National Guard’s goal is literally to prevent the literal, noshit, ferreals overthrow of the US government

  145. Now you have a sense of how others outside your zone felt about months and months of “mostly peaceful protests”.
    Really? The protests were mostly peaceful, as in the number of protests and the number of people who participated in them far outnumbered the incidents and participants in looting, violence, and vandalism. And I don’t know of people, certainly not here, who tried to suggest that the looting, violence, and vandalism didn’t happen.
    It was matter of not allowing others to smear the protesters as rioters, looters, and vandals when the intersection between those groups was very small. The commentary about peaceful protests was matter of making the distinction rather than allowing those things to be blurred together as one and the same.
    Let’s also not forget that some of the violence during BLM protests was created by overzealous policing and right-wing agitators.
    Did you think the people cleared for Trump’s bible photo-op got what they deserved?

  146. Now you have a sense of how others outside your zone felt about months and months of “mostly peaceful protests”.
    Really? The protests were mostly peaceful, as in the number of protests and the number of people who participated in them far outnumbered the incidents and participants in looting, violence, and vandalism. And I don’t know of people, certainly not here, who tried to suggest that the looting, violence, and vandalism didn’t happen.
    It was matter of not allowing others to smear the protesters as rioters, looters, and vandals when the intersection between those groups was very small. The commentary about peaceful protests was matter of making the distinction rather than allowing those things to be blurred together as one and the same.
    Let’s also not forget that some of the violence during BLM protests was created by overzealous policing and right-wing agitators.
    Did you think the people cleared for Trump’s bible photo-op got what they deserved?

  147. …the power to regulate speech should not be left to market forces who operate according to the profit motive.
    And I certainly don’t want it left to the people with political motives. And guns.

  148. …the power to regulate speech should not be left to market forces who operate according to the profit motive.
    And I certainly don’t want it left to the people with political motives. And guns.

  153. he worries that there may be clandestine Trump supporters organising within the military, National Guard etc, to mount a more effective coup attempt.
    I have no doubt that the seditious rot we saw last week extends into the US military and police. What I find unlikely is that it extends to the 10 or 15 thousand Guards troops who are being called to DC.
    If I’m wrong about that, it’s all over. Or at least, we will actually have a real, live Civil War on our hands.
    The likelihood that “a bunch of loud mouths on the internet” are doing their damnedest to make a peaceful transfer of power impossible is, by comparison, much much much much higher.
    Short of “the sun will come up tomorrow”, it’s hard for me to think of anything more obvious.
    For the last four years, we’ve been listening to Marty tell us all that the violence is all on the left, that right wing violence is just a trivial aberration, that groups like the Proud Boys and their ilk are not a matter of concern. Certainly not when compared, for example, to BLM and Antifa.
    In the ~240 years this nation has existed, Americans have never attempted a direct assault on Congress or the Capitol, have never attempted to interrupt the peaceful transfer of power.
    Never.
    Not during the intensely partisan period of the early 1800’s, not during the increasingly turbulent and violent lead-up to the Civil War, not during the violence of the Reconstruction and post-Reconstruction periods, not during the social upheavals around the rise of the labor movement, not during the Great Depression, not during the tension and violence around the Civil Rights movement, not during Vietnam.
    Never.
    Even during the Civil War itself, the transfer of power was accomplished peacefully.
    Never, until last Wednesday.
    Those fnckers were hunting Congresspeople in the halls of the Capitol. To capture and likely harm or kill them.
    So the idea that right wing violence is some kind of aberration or matter of trivial concern needs to be off the table.
    These people are fucking serious, and they should be taken seriously.
    McK’s comparison of the riots around George Floyd’s murder with the actions of last Wednesday deserves a response, but I don’t have time right now, unfortunately. I will try to return to it.
    Also, McK’s comments about handling firearms are wisdom. If you’re not going to invest in seriously learning how to use them safely, best to just leave them alone. If you think you might want one for self-defense, you need to commit yourself to the possibility of killing somebody with one, otherwise best to just leave them alone. Absent all of that, the person most likely to be harmed is you.

  154. he worries that there may be clandestine Trump supporters organising within the military, National Guard etc, to mount a more effective coup attempt.
    I have no doubt that the seditious rot we saw last week extends into the US military and police. What I find unlikely is that it extends to the 10 or 15 thousand Guards troops who are being called to DC.
    If I’m wrong about that, it’s all over. Or at least, we will actually have a real, live Civil War on our hands.
    The likelihood that “a bunch of loud mouths on the internet” are doing their damnedest to make a peaceful transfer of power impossible is, by comparison, much much much much higher.
    Short of “the sun will come up tomorrow”, it’s hard for me to think of anything more obvious.
    For the last four years, we’ve been listening to Marty tell us all that the violence is all on the left, that right wing violence is just a trivial aberration, that groups like the Proud Boys and their ilk are not a matter of concern. Certainly not when compared, for example, to BLM and Antifa.
    In the ~240 years this nation has existed, Americans have never attempted a direct assault on Congress or the Capitol, have never attempted to interrupt the peaceful transfer of power.
    Never.
    Not during the intensely partisan period of the early 1800’s, not during the increasingly turbulent and violent lead-up to the Civil War, not during the violence of the Reconstruction and post-Reconstruction periods, not during the social upheavals around the rise of the labor movement, not during the Great Depression, not during the tension and violence around the Civil Rights movement, not during Vietnam.
    Never.
    Even during the Civil War itself, the transfer of power was accomplished peacefully.
    Never, until last Wednesday.
    Those fnckers were hunting Congresspeople in the halls of the Capitol. To capture and likely harm or kill them.
    So the idea that right wing violence is some kind of aberration or matter of trivial concern needs to be off the table.
    These people are fucking serious, and they should be taken seriously.
    McK’s comparison of the riots around George Floyd’s murder with the actions of last Wednesday deserves a response, but I don’t have time right now, unfortunately. I will try to return to it.
    Also, McK’s comments about handling firearms are wisdom. If you’re not going to invest in seriously learning how to use them safely, best to just leave them alone. If you think you might want one for self-defense, you need to commit yourself to the possibility of killing somebody with one, otherwise best to just leave them alone. Absent all of that, the person most likely to be harmed is you.

  155. Last note: if you want to see what happens to a police officer who has been de-militarized, spend some time watching the officer who was murdered get beaten to death. He had no helmut, no kevlar vest. IOW, he had no protection.
    Which of course means that neighborhoods need to be policed on a daily basis with people armored and armed to the teeth as though they’re an occupying military force rather than being there to ensure public safety.
    More and better-equipped forces were needed last week, which should have been obvious ahead of time from the ridiculous amount of available intel. Threats to our seat of government aren’t happening everywhere all the time.
    A large and well-equipped force will be needed on inauguration day in Washington. That doesn’t mean we need commandos in every city every day.
    I don’t know what religion you’re referring to.

  156. Last note: if you want to see what happens to a police officer who has been de-militarized, spend some time watching the officer who was murdered get beaten to death. He had no helmut, no kevlar vest. IOW, he had no protection.
    Which of course means that neighborhoods need to be policed on a daily basis with people armored and armed to the teeth as though they’re an occupying military force rather than being there to ensure public safety.
    More and better-equipped forces were needed last week, which should have been obvious ahead of time from the ridiculous amount of available intel. Threats to our seat of government aren’t happening everywhere all the time.
    A large and well-equipped force will be needed on inauguration day in Washington. That doesn’t mean we need commandos in every city every day.
    I don’t know what religion you’re referring to.

  157. “Last note: if you want to see what happens to a police officer who has been de-militarized, spend some time watching the officer who was murdered get beaten to death. He had no helmut, no kevlar vest. IOW, he had no protection.”
    I don’t know for sure, but I’m betting that equipment is now standard issue to the 2500 officers on the Capitol Hill Police Force, and like every other police force that has been militarized over the past two decades, an order is required to don that equipment.
    No order was issued.
    Why not.
    Cops in major metropolitan areas beat the crap out of unarmed protestors, including women, while wearing the stuff.
    These protestors were armed to a great extent, more than we know.
    “We’ll see how long this new “law and order” religion lasts on the left. And how far it extends.”
    Bullshit. No one here has objected to Antifa looters and rioters being arrested and charged.
    BLM folks in many instances pleaded with Antifa to stop their mayhem and with police forces to interdict the bad actors among the crowds.
    In fact, that so few were arrested is some kind of dog that did not bark in the night as right wing suspects have constantly and with impunity equated BLM and Antifa as one criminal enterprise.
    We’ll see how long this pro-government religion lasts on the right among those who were terrified that Mike Pence, vice-enabler in chief of anti-government forces, might have strung up and disemboweled by armed, crypto-christian lunatics who not two weeks ago held him in high esteem as one of the chief Trump apostles.
    “There are racists on the right. On the left too. And in the AA and Hispanic communities. And in the Asian community. The Republican party does have a statistically significant number of racists to one degree or another (yes, Virgina, there are degrees of racism, depending on how you define that term).”
    Sure enough. But that statement is close enough to lj’s stand that all of us are racist to some degree for me to declare a bi-partisan standoff.
    Demilitarize the police at all levels of government, but only after demilitarizing the American public.

  158. “Last note: if you want to see what happens to a police officer who has been de-militarized, spend some time watching the officer who was murdered get beaten to death. He had no helmut, no kevlar vest. IOW, he had no protection.”
    I don’t know for sure, but I’m betting that equipment is now standard issue to the 2500 officers on the Capitol Hill Police Force, and like every other police force that has been militarized over the past two decades, an order is required to don that equipment.
    No order was issued.
    Why not.
    Cops in major metropolitan areas beat the crap out of unarmed protestors, including women, while wearing the stuff.
    These protestors were armed to a great extent, more than we know.
    “We’ll see how long this new “law and order” religion lasts on the left. And how far it extends.”
    Bullshit. No one here has objected to Antifa looters and rioters being arrested and charged.
    BLM folks in many instances pleaded with Antifa to stop their mayhem and with police forces to interdict the bad actors among the crowds.
    In fact, that so few were arrested is some kind of dog that did not bark in the night as right wing suspects have constantly and with impunity equated BLM and Antifa as one criminal enterprise.
    We’ll see how long this pro-government religion lasts on the right among those who were terrified that Mike Pence, vice-enabler in chief of anti-government forces, might have strung up and disemboweled by armed, crypto-christian lunatics who not two weeks ago held him in high esteem as one of the chief Trump apostles.
    “There are racists on the right. On the left too. And in the AA and Hispanic communities. And in the Asian community. The Republican party does have a statistically significant number of racists to one degree or another (yes, Virgina, there are degrees of racism, depending on how you define that term).”
    Sure enough. But that statement is close enough to lj’s stand that all of us are racist to some degree for me to declare a bi-partisan standoff.
    Demilitarize the police at all levels of government, but only after demilitarizing the American public.

  159. Running around with a group of untrained, armed morons and trying to tangle with an organized military unit? No thanks.
    Certainly not my intention. As to buying a gun, your words of wisdom are, in fact, why I don’t own one now. That’s unlikely to change.
    Demilitarize the police at all levels of government, but only after demilitarizing the American public.
    This.

  160. Running around with a group of untrained, armed morons and trying to tangle with an organized military unit? No thanks.
    Certainly not my intention. As to buying a gun, your words of wisdom are, in fact, why I don’t own one now. That’s unlikely to change.
    Demilitarize the police at all levels of government, but only after demilitarizing the American public.
    This.

  163. Marty, thank you for confirming my understanding, which hopefully provides some clarity. In all fairness, it took me a couple of readings of your comment to be (fairly) sure that was what you meant.

  164. Marty, thank you for confirming my understanding, which hopefully provides some clarity. In all fairness, it took me a couple of readings of your comment to be (fairly) sure that was what you meant.

  165. Demilitarize the police at all levels of government, but only after demilitarizing the American public.
    This ^^^^^.

  166. Demilitarize the police at all levels of government, but only after demilitarizing the American public.
    This ^^^^^.

  167. five people died because of the Republican Party’s attempt to overthrow the government last week. and they’re threatening to do it again.
    the GOP’s response is to complain about unrelated events that happened seasons ago.
    they are not capable of governance. they are, as the quote says, three death cults in a trench coat, pretending to be a political party.

  168. five people died because of the Republican Party’s attempt to overthrow the government last week. and they’re threatening to do it again.
    the GOP’s response is to complain about unrelated events that happened seasons ago.
    they are not capable of governance. they are, as the quote says, three death cults in a trench coat, pretending to be a political party.

  169. russell, something less than 2000 people marched to the Capitol, something less than a few hundred breached the Capitol. This is an infinitesimally small number of people who made a big splash. Then, they all went home. They keep getting arrested in their home towns. They didn’t regroup and destroy DC the next night. Most of them were not armed and the only shooting was by the police.
    It wasn’t the only federal building this year to be attacked, and the others were attacked repeatedly by antifa or whoever and required the National Guard to protect them.
    It was a bad thing, it was of almost no actual consequence to the operation of our democracy.
    There simply are not enough right or left wing radicals willing to pursue violence in this country to be of more than minimal consequence. Mostly we give them a bigger platform than they deserve.
    I grew up with them. Members of the KKK. I was recruited to join when I was in the army. They are mostly pathetic followers looking for a way to feel important. They are a completely different set of people than the average Trump supporter. Ther is nuance to be observed here.

  170. russell, something less than 2000 people marched to the Capitol, something less than a few hundred breached the Capitol. This is an infinitesimally small number of people who made a big splash. Then, they all went home. They keep getting arrested in their home towns. They didn’t regroup and destroy DC the next night. Most of them were not armed and the only shooting was by the police.
    It wasn’t the only federal building this year to be attacked, and the others were attacked repeatedly by antifa or whoever and required the National Guard to protect them.
    It was a bad thing, it was of almost no actual consequence to the operation of our democracy.
    There simply are not enough right or left wing radicals willing to pursue violence in this country to be of more than minimal consequence. Mostly we give them a bigger platform than they deserve.
    I grew up with them. Members of the KKK. I was recruited to join when I was in the army. They are mostly pathetic followers looking for a way to feel important. They are a completely different set of people than the average Trump supporter. Ther is nuance to be observed here.

  171. four people died in Benghazi. the GOP held countless hours of hearings and talked about non-stop for months.
    what are the odds more than 10 Republicans will vote to even allow hearings into the Republicans’ failed coup?

  172. four people died in Benghazi. the GOP held countless hours of hearings and talked about non-stop for months.
    what are the odds more than 10 Republicans will vote to even allow hearings into the Republicans’ failed coup?

  173. https://www.thedailybeast.com/police-warn-house-dems-of-plot-to-encircle-the-capitol-and-assassinate-them-says-report?via=newsletter&source=CSAMedition
    Crowd size:
    https://theconversation.com/it-is-difficult-if-not-impossible-to-estimate-the-size-of-the-crowd-that-stormed-capitol-hill-152889
    I estimate there were only slightly fewer attackers against the Capitol than attended Trump’s inauguration in 2017, which as we know was the largest inauguration crowd since Leni Reifenstahl employed a wide-angle lens.
    “I grew up with them. Members of the KKK. I was recruited to join when I was in the army.”
    You never cease to amaze with the numbers and depth of your life experience in all matters, and your domiciles.
    You remind me of Carl Reiner’s and Mel Brooks’ 2000-year-old man.

  174. https://www.thedailybeast.com/police-warn-house-dems-of-plot-to-encircle-the-capitol-and-assassinate-them-says-report?via=newsletter&source=CSAMedition
    Crowd size:
    https://theconversation.com/it-is-difficult-if-not-impossible-to-estimate-the-size-of-the-crowd-that-stormed-capitol-hill-152889
    I estimate there were only slightly fewer attackers against the Capitol than attended Trump’s inauguration in 2017, which as we know was the largest inauguration crowd since Leni Reifenstahl employed a wide-angle lens.
    “I grew up with them. Members of the KKK. I was recruited to join when I was in the army.”
    You never cease to amaze with the numbers and depth of your life experience in all matters, and your domiciles.
    You remind me of Carl Reiner’s and Mel Brooks’ 2000-year-old man.

  175. A day before rioters stormed Congress, an FBI office in Virginia issued an explicit internal warning that extremists were preparing to travel to Washington to commit violence and “war,” according to an internal document reviewed by The Washington Post that contradicts a senior official’s declaration the bureau had no intelligence indicating anyone at last week’s pro-Trump protest planned to do harm.
    …
    “As of 5 January 2021, FBI Norfolk received information indicating calls for violence in response to ‘unlawful lockdowns’ to begin on 6 January 2021 in Washington. D.C.,” the document says. “An online thread discussed specific calls for violence to include stating ‘Be ready to fight. Congress needs to hear glass breaking, doors being kicked in, and blood from their BLM and Pantifa slave soldiers being spilled. Get violent. Stop calling this a march, or rally, or a protest. Go there ready for war. We get our President or we die. NOTHING else will achieve this goal.”

    where are the hearings, GOP Senate?

  176. A day before rioters stormed Congress, an FBI office in Virginia issued an explicit internal warning that extremists were preparing to travel to Washington to commit violence and “war,” according to an internal document reviewed by The Washington Post that contradicts a senior official’s declaration the bureau had no intelligence indicating anyone at last week’s pro-Trump protest planned to do harm.
    …
    “As of 5 January 2021, FBI Norfolk received information indicating calls for violence in response to ‘unlawful lockdowns’ to begin on 6 January 2021 in Washington. D.C.,” the document says. “An online thread discussed specific calls for violence to include stating ‘Be ready to fight. Congress needs to hear glass breaking, doors being kicked in, and blood from their BLM and Pantifa slave soldiers being spilled. Get violent. Stop calling this a march, or rally, or a protest. Go there ready for war. We get our President or we die. NOTHING else will achieve this goal.”

    where are the hearings, GOP Senate?

  177. I am not disagreeing with what McKinney and russell said about firearms, except in their admonition to leave them alone. I think that it is good to understand firearms and to have some experience with them, to have handled them and fired them and know how they work. If nothing else, it dispels a lot of myth and magical thinking about them. We will all have better firearm legislation if more on the left understand the tool for what it is.
    The hard part is trying to find someplace to shoot a firearm, learn the basics, and try a few out, without also being subject to paranoid right wing propaganda and NRA proselytizing. I haven’t fired anything in years because the places to do so in an urban area are all run by crazies.

  178. I am not disagreeing with what McKinney and russell said about firearms, except in their admonition to leave them alone. I think that it is good to understand firearms and to have some experience with them, to have handled them and fired them and know how they work. If nothing else, it dispels a lot of myth and magical thinking about them. We will all have better firearm legislation if more on the left understand the tool for what it is.
    The hard part is trying to find someplace to shoot a firearm, learn the basics, and try a few out, without also being subject to paranoid right wing propaganda and NRA proselytizing. I haven’t fired anything in years because the places to do so in an urban area are all run by crazies.

  179. Which is also not to say that you should go out and buy a firearm and keep it in your house. I’m just talking about learning how and having the experience of shooting different firearms at different ranges and learning safety – the things the NRA used to do before it became a recruitment arm for terrorists.

  180. Which is also not to say that you should go out and buy a firearm and keep it in your house. I’m just talking about learning how and having the experience of shooting different firearms at different ranges and learning safety – the things the NRA used to do before it became a recruitment arm for terrorists.

  181. it was of almost no actual consequence to the operation of our democracy.
    Because it was not successful. The lack of success was not guaranteed.
    The things that you are willing to wave away never cease to amaze me. And I’ll leave it at that. I don’t see a basis of common understanding of fact here, and that makes further discussion an exercise in futility.

  182. it was of almost no actual consequence to the operation of our democracy.
    Because it was not successful. The lack of success was not guaranteed.
    The things that you are willing to wave away never cease to amaze me. And I’ll leave it at that. I don’t see a basis of common understanding of fact here, and that makes further discussion an exercise in futility.

  183. The problem is that there are network effects
    While that is true, there are also the ‘buying up any possible competitor’ effects to be considered.

  184. The problem is that there are network effects
    While that is true, there are also the ‘buying up any possible competitor’ effects to be considered.

  185. the GOP’s response is to complain about unrelated events that happened seasons ago.
    Seasons ago? Seriously? It was less than a year ago.
    Unrelated? No. Not unrelated. Leftwing violence seemingly aided and abetted by leftwing politicians and aligned movements produce a reaction. So, there is a relationship.
    The fact is, there was widespread rioting, looting and burning across the country for months. The left was AWOL and, if anything, enabling of that activity. And, doing dumb shit like calling for defunding the police. All of that chatter made sense to people who were already on board, but for the rest of us, it sounded not so great.
    Trying to disrupt the presidential election is a difference in kind. I made that pretty clear the other day, but you can’t have it both ways–as both side generally try to do–it was shitty then and it’s even shittier now. Too bad all the law and order types today weren’t a bit more vocal back then.
    Trying to say that rioting and burning over police violence is understandable and–as one commenter state here–justified as potentially a part of negotiating for more power (or words to that effect), but that rioting over a stolen election is completely off limits isn’t going to sell outside your neighborhood.
    Among other reasons for this, the reason why the riot in DC missed the mark is that there was no credible evidence of any kind that the election was stolen. That was a complete lie.
    However, if the election had been open and notoriously stolen (think Russia, Cuba, Venezuela), wouldn’t that put the rioters in a different light? This is a thought experiment, not an attempt to rewrite history.

  186. the GOP’s response is to complain about unrelated events that happened seasons ago.
    Seasons ago? Seriously? It was less than a year ago.
    Unrelated? No. Not unrelated. Leftwing violence seemingly aided and abetted by leftwing politicians and aligned movements produce a reaction. So, there is a relationship.
    The fact is, there was widespread rioting, looting and burning across the country for months. The left was AWOL and, if anything, enabling of that activity. And, doing dumb shit like calling for defunding the police. All of that chatter made sense to people who were already on board, but for the rest of us, it sounded not so great.
    Trying to disrupt the presidential election is a difference in kind. I made that pretty clear the other day, but you can’t have it both ways–as both side generally try to do–it was shitty then and it’s even shittier now. Too bad all the law and order types today weren’t a bit more vocal back then.
    Trying to say that rioting and burning over police violence is understandable and–as one commenter state here–justified as potentially a part of negotiating for more power (or words to that effect), but that rioting over a stolen election is completely off limits isn’t going to sell outside your neighborhood.
    Among other reasons for this, the reason why the riot in DC missed the mark is that there was no credible evidence of any kind that the election was stolen. That was a complete lie.
    However, if the election had been open and notoriously stolen (think Russia, Cuba, Venezuela), wouldn’t that put the rioters in a different light? This is a thought experiment, not an attempt to rewrite history.

  187. It’s funny (in that dark ironic way) that facebook seems to be the choice of older folks and those younger wouldn’t be caught dead on it…
    I’m an older folk, and I wouldn’t be caught dead on it – while both my kids use it.
    But generally, you’re right.
    Which is why they’ve bought up so many of their more hip competitors.

  188. It’s funny (in that dark ironic way) that facebook seems to be the choice of older folks and those younger wouldn’t be caught dead on it…
    I’m an older folk, and I wouldn’t be caught dead on it – while both my kids use it.
    But generally, you’re right.
    Which is why they’ve bought up so many of their more hip competitors.

  189. “You never cease to amaze with the numbers and depth of your life experience in all matters, and your domiciles.”
    Were you in the army in the 70’s? In Texas? It was a pretty common experience.
    I have lived most of my adult life in 4 places, Dallas, Toronto, Boston area and Florida. I did travel some in the army living in Missouri, Georgia, Arizona and Texas. None of that seems like it is an odd amount of domiciles.

  190. “You never cease to amaze with the numbers and depth of your life experience in all matters, and your domiciles.”
    Were you in the army in the 70’s? In Texas? It was a pretty common experience.
    I have lived most of my adult life in 4 places, Dallas, Toronto, Boston area and Florida. I did travel some in the army living in Missouri, Georgia, Arizona and Texas. None of that seems like it is an odd amount of domiciles.

  191. “The lack of success was not guaranteed.”
    Of course it was. Sans military support that would have certainly changed the outcome it was a pathetic show by idiot dillwads trying to make news, all of whom knew it would ultimately fail. Thenn they went to dinner and caught a plane home.

  192. “The lack of success was not guaranteed.”
    Of course it was. Sans military support that would have certainly changed the outcome it was a pathetic show by idiot dillwads trying to make news, all of whom knew it would ultimately fail. Thenn they went to dinner and caught a plane home.

  193. I think that it is good to understand firearms and to have some experience with them, to have handled them and fired them and know how they work. If nothing else, it dispels a lot of myth and magical thinking about them. We will all have better firearm legislation if more on the left understand the tool for what it is.
    The hard part is trying to find someplace to shoot a firearm, learn the basics, and try a few out, without also being subject to paranoid right wing propaganda and NRA proselytizing. I haven’t fired anything in years because the places to do so in an urban area are all run by crazies.
    Ok, I did not see this coming. I agree 100% with most of what you say. Not sure where you live, but in Houston, you can go to the American Shooting Center (they probably have a website) and shoot rifles, pistols and shotguns all day long. They have a very stout safety regime and I’ve never been approached by anyone touting politics (although DT stickers on the back of pickup’s are ubiquitous).
    Getting a firm handle on the fundamentals of safe firearms handling, how they work, etc. is useful like knowing how to use a power saw or do rough carpentry. Very learnable and very useful. And, as you say, it takes away a lot of the mystery around firearms.

  194. I think that it is good to understand firearms and to have some experience with them, to have handled them and fired them and know how they work. If nothing else, it dispels a lot of myth and magical thinking about them. We will all have better firearm legislation if more on the left understand the tool for what it is.
    The hard part is trying to find someplace to shoot a firearm, learn the basics, and try a few out, without also being subject to paranoid right wing propaganda and NRA proselytizing. I haven’t fired anything in years because the places to do so in an urban area are all run by crazies.
    Ok, I did not see this coming. I agree 100% with most of what you say. Not sure where you live, but in Houston, you can go to the American Shooting Center (they probably have a website) and shoot rifles, pistols and shotguns all day long. They have a very stout safety regime and I’ve never been approached by anyone touting politics (although DT stickers on the back of pickup’s are ubiquitous).
    Getting a firm handle on the fundamentals of safe firearms handling, how they work, etc. is useful like knowing how to use a power saw or do rough carpentry. Very learnable and very useful. And, as you say, it takes away a lot of the mystery around firearms.

  195. I’d like to see President Joe Biden exhort an angry mob of Antifa goons and BLM activists to march to the Supreme Court and “show strength” to “take back” the Constitution from Amy Coney Barrett, the Perjurer, the Pervert, and the Receiver of Stolen Goods.
    But let me be clear: I’d only like to see that in order to hear what the likes of Josh and Ted and Mo and Kevin and Rudi would have to say about it.
    –TP

  196. I’d like to see President Joe Biden exhort an angry mob of Antifa goons and BLM activists to march to the Supreme Court and “show strength” to “take back” the Constitution from Amy Coney Barrett, the Perjurer, the Pervert, and the Receiver of Stolen Goods.
    But let me be clear: I’d only like to see that in order to hear what the likes of Josh and Ted and Mo and Kevin and Rudi would have to say about it.
    –TP

  197. Imagine this, and it doesn’t take much imagination:
    Some of the rioters break into the Senate chamber while Pence and some or all of the Senate are still there. They kidnap Pence and one or more Senators. Perhaps kill them.
    Trump declares martial law and refuses to step down as POTUS until… who knows when.
    What prevented that was one Capitol cop who had the wit to shove a rioter and, using himself as bait, distract that guy and his pals from the Senate chamber.
    I’m not making this shit up. We have video documentation, of all of that.
    And, had that happened, I’d say at least half of Trump supporters would not only accept it, they’d welcome it. I’m being generous.
    I basically agree with McK that this isn’t all about race, although that is certainly caught up in it. If you call a cop a nigger because he won’t let you into the Capitol, race is rattling around in your head somewhere.
    What it is primarily about is a refusal to accept the outcome of a legitimate election. It is a refusal to abide by the rule of law and the Constitution, and an attempt to impose your own will instead, by force.
    The majority of Trump supporters would accept that. They’d be fine with it.
    So I’m not really interested in nuance.

  198. Imagine this, and it doesn’t take much imagination:
    Some of the rioters break into the Senate chamber while Pence and some or all of the Senate are still there. They kidnap Pence and one or more Senators. Perhaps kill them.
    Trump declares martial law and refuses to step down as POTUS until… who knows when.
    What prevented that was one Capitol cop who had the wit to shove a rioter and, using himself as bait, distract that guy and his pals from the Senate chamber.
    I’m not making this shit up. We have video documentation, of all of that.
    And, had that happened, I’d say at least half of Trump supporters would not only accept it, they’d welcome it. I’m being generous.
    I basically agree with McK that this isn’t all about race, although that is certainly caught up in it. If you call a cop a nigger because he won’t let you into the Capitol, race is rattling around in your head somewhere.
    What it is primarily about is a refusal to accept the outcome of a legitimate election. It is a refusal to abide by the rule of law and the Constitution, and an attempt to impose your own will instead, by force.
    The majority of Trump supporters would accept that. They’d be fine with it.
    So I’m not really interested in nuance.

  199. Trying to disrupt the presidential election is a difference in kind.
    Thank you.
    there was no credible evidence of any kind that the election was stolen. That was a complete lie.
    Thank you, again.
    However, if the election had been open and notoriously stolen (think Russia, Cuba, Venezuela), wouldn’t that put the rioters in a different light?
    As a thought experiment, and speaking for myself and off the top of my head, I’d say it would put rioting in a different light, but not attempted kidnap and assault and possible murder of elected officials.
    ymmv

  200. Trying to disrupt the presidential election is a difference in kind.
    Thank you.
    there was no credible evidence of any kind that the election was stolen. That was a complete lie.
    Thank you, again.
    However, if the election had been open and notoriously stolen (think Russia, Cuba, Venezuela), wouldn’t that put the rioters in a different light?
    As a thought experiment, and speaking for myself and off the top of my head, I’d say it would put rioting in a different light, but not attempted kidnap and assault and possible murder of elected officials.
    ymmv

  201. the GOP’s response is to complain about unrelated events that happened seasons ago.

    Seasons ago? Seriously? It was less than a year ago.

    yes, seriously. the BLM protests were literally two or three seasons ago.
    Unrelated? No. Not unrelated. Leftwing violence seemingly aided and abetted by leftwing politicians and aligned movements produce a reaction. So, there is a relationship.
    how many of them were attempting to overthrow the government?

  202. the GOP’s response is to complain about unrelated events that happened seasons ago.

    Seasons ago? Seriously? It was less than a year ago.

    yes, seriously. the BLM protests were literally two or three seasons ago.
    Unrelated? No. Not unrelated. Leftwing violence seemingly aided and abetted by leftwing politicians and aligned movements produce a reaction. So, there is a relationship.
    how many of them were attempting to overthrow the government?

  203. except in their admonition to leave them alone.
    To be clear, my admonition was not to leave them alone. It was to leave them alone unless you are interested enough and willing enough to commit to learning how to use them safely and responsibly.
    To be really clear, I’d actually be fine if this country had a real, honest to god militia. Not the kind of cosplay randos we see now, more or less on the Swiss or Israeli model. We’d have a lot fewer knuckleheads running around threatening the rest of us if they thought they’d be likely to face trained and armed counterparties.
    Not likely to happen, but just, as McK puts it, a thought experiment.

  204. except in their admonition to leave them alone.
    To be clear, my admonition was not to leave them alone. It was to leave them alone unless you are interested enough and willing enough to commit to learning how to use them safely and responsibly.
    To be really clear, I’d actually be fine if this country had a real, honest to god militia. Not the kind of cosplay randos we see now, more or less on the Swiss or Israeli model. We’d have a lot fewer knuckleheads running around threatening the rest of us if they thought they’d be likely to face trained and armed counterparties.
    Not likely to happen, but just, as McK puts it, a thought experiment.

  205. Some of the rioters break into the Senate chamber while Pence and some or all of the Senate are still there. They kidnap Pence and one or more Senators. Perhaps kill them.
    Trump declares martial law and refuses to step down as POTUS until… who knows when.
    Ok, this seems like more than a small reach to me, but since I’m for some reason taking today off, I’ll bite: Pence is dead at DT’s indirect instance and DT declares martial law.
    On this scenario, I see one of two outcomes, both within 48 hours: DT is either in custody or is shot dead during efforts to put him in custody.
    There was no huge, seething mob of camo’ed up popdicks with their AR-15’s locked and loaded waiting to take over a country of 330 million people. A couple thousand losers–at DT’s behest–tried with completely predictable lack of success–to prevent the electoral count.
    These shitheads mostly barely have a life. Their individual competence level makes them unemployable at any job requiring even modest executive decision making skills. They were doomed to fail. The problem was, the effort was just so fucking outrageous that we are still trying to come to grips with it. The fact that a sitting president could condone this is simply off the charts wild. But, he’s also an incompetent buffoon and that came out late Wednesday as well.
    What it is primarily about is a refusal to accept the outcome of a legitimate election. It is a refusal to abide by the rule of law and the Constitution, and an attempt to impose your own will instead, by force.
    The majority of Trump supporters would accept that. They’d be fine with it.
    So I’m not really interested in nuance.
    I kind of am interested in nuance, because the authoritarian bent is not all on the right. In fact, history and what we see today give us plenty of reasons to be very, very concerned about the authoritarian left.
    You can have an argument about which came first, the Proud Boys or Antifa, but the fact is, both are with us and neither add value.
    Russell, you are one of several here who rightly regret the lack of shared values. Well, one value is not having riots when something shitty happens. And no, I don’t want to hear what the rioters have to say. I’m totally open to listening to peaceful protesters and their spokes people, but not fucking rioters. I’ve read reports of 20 billion in property damage–mostly small business owners whose life savings and livelihoods went up, literally, in smoke. But not much love from the left for these people.
    So, yes to nuance. No to summary dismissal of this issue having only one legitimate side.

  206. Some of the rioters break into the Senate chamber while Pence and some or all of the Senate are still there. They kidnap Pence and one or more Senators. Perhaps kill them.
    Trump declares martial law and refuses to step down as POTUS until… who knows when.
    Ok, this seems like more than a small reach to me, but since I’m for some reason taking today off, I’ll bite: Pence is dead at DT’s indirect instance and DT declares martial law.
    On this scenario, I see one of two outcomes, both within 48 hours: DT is either in custody or is shot dead during efforts to put him in custody.
    There was no huge, seething mob of camo’ed up popdicks with their AR-15’s locked and loaded waiting to take over a country of 330 million people. A couple thousand losers–at DT’s behest–tried with completely predictable lack of success–to prevent the electoral count.
    These shitheads mostly barely have a life. Their individual competence level makes them unemployable at any job requiring even modest executive decision making skills. They were doomed to fail. The problem was, the effort was just so fucking outrageous that we are still trying to come to grips with it. The fact that a sitting president could condone this is simply off the charts wild. But, he’s also an incompetent buffoon and that came out late Wednesday as well.
    What it is primarily about is a refusal to accept the outcome of a legitimate election. It is a refusal to abide by the rule of law and the Constitution, and an attempt to impose your own will instead, by force.
    The majority of Trump supporters would accept that. They’d be fine with it.
    So I’m not really interested in nuance.
    I kind of am interested in nuance, because the authoritarian bent is not all on the right. In fact, history and what we see today give us plenty of reasons to be very, very concerned about the authoritarian left.
    You can have an argument about which came first, the Proud Boys or Antifa, but the fact is, both are with us and neither add value.
    Russell, you are one of several here who rightly regret the lack of shared values. Well, one value is not having riots when something shitty happens. And no, I don’t want to hear what the rioters have to say. I’m totally open to listening to peaceful protesters and their spokes people, but not fucking rioters. I’ve read reports of 20 billion in property damage–mostly small business owners whose life savings and livelihoods went up, literally, in smoke. But not much love from the left for these people.
    So, yes to nuance. No to summary dismissal of this issue having only one legitimate side.

  207. “Trump declares martial law and refuses to step down as POTUS until… who knows when.”
    As I said, this would require the military to be complicit. There is literally more danger of that with all the troops in DC next week if they are complicit. They can then take and hold, which is the meaningful part, those key buildings.
    This is a conspiracy plot beyond any that Trumps supporters have come up with. Some fringe group of right wing militia guys takes the Senate, the President declares martial law, the troops roll into town to hold the opposition at bay. I think I saw that movie.

  208. “Trump declares martial law and refuses to step down as POTUS until… who knows when.”
    As I said, this would require the military to be complicit. There is literally more danger of that with all the troops in DC next week if they are complicit. They can then take and hold, which is the meaningful part, those key buildings.
    This is a conspiracy plot beyond any that Trumps supporters have come up with. Some fringe group of right wing militia guys takes the Senate, the President declares martial law, the troops roll into town to hold the opposition at bay. I think I saw that movie.

  209. An actual stolen election would be a subversion of democracy. As it stands, the attempt to overturn a legitimate election was an attempted subversion of democracy – one that may not actually be over with. I’m not sure the point of the thought experiment. It’s a “let’s assume the situation was entirely different” proposition – that the animating feature was the opposite of what it was.
    If the Democrats were actually trying to destroy America and turn it into some kind of totalitarian socialist hell, I wouldn’t support them. But they aren’t, so it’s not relevant.

  210. An actual stolen election would be a subversion of democracy. As it stands, the attempt to overturn a legitimate election was an attempted subversion of democracy – one that may not actually be over with. I’m not sure the point of the thought experiment. It’s a “let’s assume the situation was entirely different” proposition – that the animating feature was the opposite of what it was.
    If the Democrats were actually trying to destroy America and turn it into some kind of totalitarian socialist hell, I wouldn’t support them. But they aren’t, so it’s not relevant.

  213. We’d have a lot fewer knuckleheads running around threatening the rest of us if they thought they’d be likely to face trained and armed counterparties.
    probably, yeah.
    right now, there’s such a culture war linkage to guns (as noted above) that a lot of liberals just shun them because of not wanting to associate themselves with something the right has claimed as its own (like wearing American flag t-shirts or whatever). and, likewise, a lot of people on the right use guns as part of their macho, defiant, ‘conservative’ identity.
    no, i wouldn’t go to a shooting range, either. plus i sold all my guns in college, when i wanted money to buy a guitar.
    but, if everybody had a decent amount of exposure to guns, it might take both the left’s fear of associating with them away as well as diminishing the right’s claim to them as a unique part of their identity. the gun culture might tone itself down a bit, if they were common to everyone.
    i mean, if we’re just going to accept that we absolutely have to live in a country where tools designed to kill people are ubiquitous, that is.

  214. We’d have a lot fewer knuckleheads running around threatening the rest of us if they thought they’d be likely to face trained and armed counterparties.
    probably, yeah.
    right now, there’s such a culture war linkage to guns (as noted above) that a lot of liberals just shun them because of not wanting to associate themselves with something the right has claimed as its own (like wearing American flag t-shirts or whatever). and, likewise, a lot of people on the right use guns as part of their macho, defiant, ‘conservative’ identity.
    no, i wouldn’t go to a shooting range, either. plus i sold all my guns in college, when i wanted money to buy a guitar.
    but, if everybody had a decent amount of exposure to guns, it might take both the left’s fear of associating with them away as well as diminishing the right’s claim to them as a unique part of their identity. the gun culture might tone itself down a bit, if they were common to everyone.
    i mean, if we’re just going to accept that we absolutely have to live in a country where tools designed to kill people are ubiquitous, that is.

  215. As a thought experiment, and speaking for myself and off the top of my head, I’d say it would put rioting in a different light, but not attempted kidnap and assault and possible murder of elected officials.
    Ok, I agree. There is an obvious and material difference between rioting when kidnapping and murder is not expressly on the action item list and rioting when they are. I wish I had seen and made that point earlier. That said, the larger point of the left’s patent reticence to vigorously address the months of rioting/burning etc–with a not small loss of life–and to seemingly condone or at least contextualize it was and is very problematic. It was and is why having it one way but not the other is never going to play well outside lefty circles and it is low-hanging fruit for the far right fuckers to use as proof that the left doesn’t stand on principle, only on expediency.

  216. As a thought experiment, and speaking for myself and off the top of my head, I’d say it would put rioting in a different light, but not attempted kidnap and assault and possible murder of elected officials.
    Ok, I agree. There is an obvious and material difference between rioting when kidnapping and murder is not expressly on the action item list and rioting when they are. I wish I had seen and made that point earlier. That said, the larger point of the left’s patent reticence to vigorously address the months of rioting/burning etc–with a not small loss of life–and to seemingly condone or at least contextualize it was and is very problematic. It was and is why having it one way but not the other is never going to play well outside lefty circles and it is low-hanging fruit for the far right fuckers to use as proof that the left doesn’t stand on principle, only on expediency.

  217. There was no huge, seething mob of camo’ed up popdicks with their AR-15’s locked and loaded waiting to take over a country of 330 million people.
    There was a retired USAF Lt Colonel and his pal the bartender, with zip ties and a taser, in the Senate Chamber, shortly after the Senate had been evacuated.
    WTF do you think the zip ties and taser were for?
    And that’s just the most conspicuous example.
    And I’ve watched four years of Trump supporters and the (R) party getting Trump’s back for a pretty fucking amazing parade of malfeasance, so I’m skeptical that any of that would have led to Trump’s imprisonment or removal.
    127 (R) Congresspeople – 121 in the House, 6 Senators – voted to contest the acceptance of the electoral count THE DAY AFTER THE RIOTS.
    So, I do not share your optimism.
    Also, FWIW, there are several miles of daylight between saying “I can understand why people are rioting” and “I think rioting is good or even acceptable”. People who commit acts of violence should be accountable for them, regardless of motivation.

  218. There was no huge, seething mob of camo’ed up popdicks with their AR-15’s locked and loaded waiting to take over a country of 330 million people.
    There was a retired USAF Lt Colonel and his pal the bartender, with zip ties and a taser, in the Senate Chamber, shortly after the Senate had been evacuated.
    WTF do you think the zip ties and taser were for?
    And that’s just the most conspicuous example.
    And I’ve watched four years of Trump supporters and the (R) party getting Trump’s back for a pretty fucking amazing parade of malfeasance, so I’m skeptical that any of that would have led to Trump’s imprisonment or removal.
    127 (R) Congresspeople – 121 in the House, 6 Senators – voted to contest the acceptance of the electoral count THE DAY AFTER THE RIOTS.
    So, I do not share your optimism.
    Also, FWIW, there are several miles of daylight between saying “I can understand why people are rioting” and “I think rioting is good or even acceptable”. People who commit acts of violence should be accountable for them, regardless of motivation.

  219. You can have an argument about which came first, the Proud Boys or Antifa, but the fact is, both are with us and neither add value.
    ‘antifa’ didn’t exist in the US until 2007.
    similar anti-Nazi leftist groups with other names were around before then, especially around the punk rock scene, where neo-nazis would come to shows to start fights.

  220. You can have an argument about which came first, the Proud Boys or Antifa, but the fact is, both are with us and neither add value.
    ‘antifa’ didn’t exist in the US until 2007.
    similar anti-Nazi leftist groups with other names were around before then, especially around the punk rock scene, where neo-nazis would come to shows to start fights.

  221. When you discuss things in terms of the monolithic left, it’s hard to know who or what you’re talking about, McKinney.
    I don’t hold, for example, George Will responsible for the invasion of the Capitol. There are plenty of people on the right who aren’t Trumpists or Trump enablers. The GOP appears to be breaking in half over it.
    Are all Democrats the left?

  222. When you discuss things in terms of the monolithic left, it’s hard to know who or what you’re talking about, McKinney.
    I don’t hold, for example, George Will responsible for the invasion of the Capitol. There are plenty of people on the right who aren’t Trumpists or Trump enablers. The GOP appears to be breaking in half over it.
    Are all Democrats the left?

  223. We’d have a lot fewer knuckleheads running around threatening the rest of us if they thought they’d be likely to face trained and armed counterparties.
    Since this is a thought experiment, I’ll argue the other side. Exhibit A is the Civil War. Every state had militias. Communities had militia’s. Armed and trained militant ideologues of whatever stripe do not appeal to me.
    A highly concentrated urban society that depends on a rural agricultural base 100’s if not 1000’s of miles away (and multiple layers of distribution/ refinement and packaging) is the worst scenario ever for extended civil strife.
    If we really think there is a realistic possibility of outright and widespread civil insurrection, we need to be talking about devolution or dis-unification or something along those line. Or, we can just all kiss our happy asses goodbye.

  224. We’d have a lot fewer knuckleheads running around threatening the rest of us if they thought they’d be likely to face trained and armed counterparties.
    Since this is a thought experiment, I’ll argue the other side. Exhibit A is the Civil War. Every state had militias. Communities had militia’s. Armed and trained militant ideologues of whatever stripe do not appeal to me.
    A highly concentrated urban society that depends on a rural agricultural base 100’s if not 1000’s of miles away (and multiple layers of distribution/ refinement and packaging) is the worst scenario ever for extended civil strife.
    If we really think there is a realistic possibility of outright and widespread civil insurrection, we need to be talking about devolution or dis-unification or something along those line. Or, we can just all kiss our happy asses goodbye.

  225. McTX: I know a ton of DT supporters.
    McKinney, do you know them well enough to tell us what fraction of them believe (or at least, assert) that “the election was stolen”?
    MxTX, re the MAGAt insurrectionists: These shitheads mostly barely have a life.
    I’ve been wondering for days how people who “barely have a life” find the time and money to travel across the country for a “wild” time.
    –TP

  226. McTX: I know a ton of DT supporters.
    McKinney, do you know them well enough to tell us what fraction of them believe (or at least, assert) that “the election was stolen”?
    MxTX, re the MAGAt insurrectionists: These shitheads mostly barely have a life.
    I’ve been wondering for days how people who “barely have a life” find the time and money to travel across the country for a “wild” time.
    –TP

  227. As I said, this would require the military to be complicit.
    Actually, were Trump to have cause to declare martial law and do so, the military would be obliged to obey. They would not be ‘complicit’, they would honoring their oath of office.
    Wave it away, buddy, like you do with every other outrage.

  228. As I said, this would require the military to be complicit.
    Actually, were Trump to have cause to declare martial law and do so, the military would be obliged to obey. They would not be ‘complicit’, they would honoring their oath of office.
    Wave it away, buddy, like you do with every other outrage.

  229. the larger point of the left’s patent reticence to vigorously address the months of rioting/burning etc-
    just FYI, every time i hear this, from anyone, it sounds like absolutely nothing more than a weak attempt to excuse and diminish and shift blame over what happened last week.
    what happened last week was entirely a Republican matter.
    of course they won’t take responsibility. but that doesn’t mean anything.

  230. the larger point of the left’s patent reticence to vigorously address the months of rioting/burning etc-
    just FYI, every time i hear this, from anyone, it sounds like absolutely nothing more than a weak attempt to excuse and diminish and shift blame over what happened last week.
    what happened last week was entirely a Republican matter.
    of course they won’t take responsibility. but that doesn’t mean anything.

  231. I haven’t fired anything in years because the places to do so in an urban area are all run by crazies.
    The place I got firearms training was also run by crazies. It was call boot camp…

  232. I haven’t fired anything in years because the places to do so in an urban area are all run by crazies.
    The place I got firearms training was also run by crazies. It was call boot camp…

  233. Apologies – not martial law, but invocation of the Insurrection Act.
    And if Congress was not in a position to affirm the electoral vote, I’m not sure there is any clear direction as to how the office of POTUS is to be transferred.
    So, chaos. Which is Trump’s metier.

  234. Apologies – not martial law, but invocation of the Insurrection Act.
    And if Congress was not in a position to affirm the electoral vote, I’m not sure there is any clear direction as to how the office of POTUS is to be transferred.
    So, chaos. Which is Trump’s metier.

  235. This is the lead story in The Washington Post right now:
    “A day before rioters stormed Congress, an FBI office in Virginia issued an explicit internal warning that extremists were preparing to travel to Washington to commit violence and “war,” according to an internal document reviewed by The Washington Post that contradicts a senior official’s declaration the bureau had no intelligence indicating anyone at last week’s pro-Trump protest planned to do harm.”

  236. This is the lead story in The Washington Post right now:
    “A day before rioters stormed Congress, an FBI office in Virginia issued an explicit internal warning that extremists were preparing to travel to Washington to commit violence and “war,” according to an internal document reviewed by The Washington Post that contradicts a senior official’s declaration the bureau had no intelligence indicating anyone at last week’s pro-Trump protest planned to do harm.”

  237. There was a retired USAF Lt Colonel and his pal the bartender, with zip ties and a taser, in the Senate Chamber, shortly after the Senate had been evacuated.
    WTF do you think the zip ties and taser were for?
    And that’s just the most conspicuous example.
    And I’ve watched four years of Trump supporters and the (R) party getting Trump’s back for a pretty fucking amazing parade of malfeasance, so I’m skeptical that any of that would have led to Trump’s imprisonment or removal.
    127 (R) Congresspeople – 121 in the House, 6 Senators – voted to contest the acceptance of the electoral count THE DAY AFTER THE RIOTS.
    So, I do not share your optimism.
    Yes, and there are 330 million Americans and eventually 1000 Guards showed up, so a very small number of lunatics tried to fuck with the election. They, predictably, got their asses handed to them.
    ‘antifa’ didn’t exist in the US until 2007.
    similar anti-Nazi leftist groups with other names were around before then, especially around the punk rock scene, where neo-nazis would come to shows to start fights.
    Ok, news to me. We can go back further in time and find violent extremists at both ends of the spectrum. That is my point: neither the right nor the left, the farther out you go on the spectrum, have any historical justification for finger-pointing.
    The country would do well if both “middles” would do a better job of calling out their own extremes. It would be interesting to see if the “middles” have the backbone to stand up to their extremes. I predict they do not.
    When you discuss things in terms of the monolithic left, it’s hard to know who or what you’re talking about, McKinney.
    You have no idea how many times I’ve wanted to say the same thing when just about everyone here routinely lumps conservatives into a single, monolithic movement. Some of the most lucid and effective anti-trump writing comes from the right.
    That said, the left is more monolithic on some issues than others. I’m pretty sure “anti-racism”/intersectionality is an outlier well to the left but has enormous influence nonetheless. I’m pretty sure that condoning the riots 2 or 3 seasons ago (I will be returning fire with that metric, in due course. LOL) was not a widespread phenomena on the moderate left, but they really don’t have much of a national voice. At least, not from where I sit.
    So, when I say “left”, let me amend that to say “the visible left”. Or, the progressive left.

  238. There was a retired USAF Lt Colonel and his pal the bartender, with zip ties and a taser, in the Senate Chamber, shortly after the Senate had been evacuated.
    WTF do you think the zip ties and taser were for?
    And that’s just the most conspicuous example.
    And I’ve watched four years of Trump supporters and the (R) party getting Trump’s back for a pretty fucking amazing parade of malfeasance, so I’m skeptical that any of that would have led to Trump’s imprisonment or removal.
    127 (R) Congresspeople – 121 in the House, 6 Senators – voted to contest the acceptance of the electoral count THE DAY AFTER THE RIOTS.
    So, I do not share your optimism.
    Yes, and there are 330 million Americans and eventually 1000 Guards showed up, so a very small number of lunatics tried to fuck with the election. They, predictably, got their asses handed to them.
    ‘antifa’ didn’t exist in the US until 2007.
    similar anti-Nazi leftist groups with other names were around before then, especially around the punk rock scene, where neo-nazis would come to shows to start fights.
    Ok, news to me. We can go back further in time and find violent extremists at both ends of the spectrum. That is my point: neither the right nor the left, the farther out you go on the spectrum, have any historical justification for finger-pointing.
    The country would do well if both “middles” would do a better job of calling out their own extremes. It would be interesting to see if the “middles” have the backbone to stand up to their extremes. I predict they do not.
    When you discuss things in terms of the monolithic left, it’s hard to know who or what you’re talking about, McKinney.
    You have no idea how many times I’ve wanted to say the same thing when just about everyone here routinely lumps conservatives into a single, monolithic movement. Some of the most lucid and effective anti-trump writing comes from the right.
    That said, the left is more monolithic on some issues than others. I’m pretty sure “anti-racism”/intersectionality is an outlier well to the left but has enormous influence nonetheless. I’m pretty sure that condoning the riots 2 or 3 seasons ago (I will be returning fire with that metric, in due course. LOL) was not a widespread phenomena on the moderate left, but they really don’t have much of a national voice. At least, not from where I sit.
    So, when I say “left”, let me amend that to say “the visible left”. Or, the progressive left.

  239. I basically agree with McK that this isn’t all about race, …
    It’s also about class. Congress critters really hate seeing anyone meandering about their chambers, halls, and offices other than the normal high-class criminals…

  240. I basically agree with McK that this isn’t all about race, …
    It’s also about class. Congress critters really hate seeing anyone meandering about their chambers, halls, and offices other than the normal high-class criminals…

  241. That is my point: neither the right nor the left, the farther out you go on the spectrum, have any historical justification for finger-pointing.
    Republicans invaded the US Capitol intending to overturn the result of the November election for President.
    that finger is pointed, and it ain’t moving.

  242. That is my point: neither the right nor the left, the farther out you go on the spectrum, have any historical justification for finger-pointing.
    Republicans invaded the US Capitol intending to overturn the result of the November election for President.
    that finger is pointed, and it ain’t moving.

  243. Actually, were Trump to have cause to declare martial law and do so, the military would be obliged to obey. They would not be ‘complicit’, they would honoring their oath of office.
    Wave it away, buddy, like you do with every other outrage.
    Ok, first, as you say, he would have to “have cause”. We’ve had four successful presidential assassinations and a high number of attempts. Never was there a discussion of martial law. So, the “have cause” element is missing IMO.
    Second, I disagree with your assertion that “the military would be obliged to obey”. First, any order must be a lawful order. See Lt. Calley and My Lai. DT could not, for example, spontaneously declare martial law and order AOC brought to him in chains (this is hyperbolic illustration, he says just in case someone finds their BP escalating). Likewise, I am supremely confident that the senior military leadership (who I’m pretty sure hates Trump) would not follow any but the most routine, mundane orders that might come from DT at this point.
    just FYI, every time i hear this, from anyone, it sounds like absolutely nothing more than a weak attempt to excuse and diminish and shift blame over what happened last week.
    what happened last week was entirely a Republican matter.
    of course they won’t take responsibility. but that doesn’t mean anything.
    You can call it whatever you want. You can tell people outside your circle just how wrong they are and how right you are and that it will always be that way. Sometimes you will be right. But you’re not always right. If you can show me one instance of me trying to blame shift, have at it. Your response seems to me to be a refusal to deal with the left’s own mistakes and to focus entirely on the far right. Accusing me of blame-shifting and ignoring the months of outright rioting–even if they were “seasons” ago–isn’t persuasive, reasoned logic, it’s just dismissive.
    It’s not an impressive position outside your worldview. We–the country–would do better with a bit less provincialism.

  244. Actually, were Trump to have cause to declare martial law and do so, the military would be obliged to obey. They would not be ‘complicit’, they would honoring their oath of office.
    Wave it away, buddy, like you do with every other outrage.
    Ok, first, as you say, he would have to “have cause”. We’ve had four successful presidential assassinations and a high number of attempts. Never was there a discussion of martial law. So, the “have cause” element is missing IMO.
    Second, I disagree with your assertion that “the military would be obliged to obey”. First, any order must be a lawful order. See Lt. Calley and My Lai. DT could not, for example, spontaneously declare martial law and order AOC brought to him in chains (this is hyperbolic illustration, he says just in case someone finds their BP escalating). Likewise, I am supremely confident that the senior military leadership (who I’m pretty sure hates Trump) would not follow any but the most routine, mundane orders that might come from DT at this point.
    just FYI, every time i hear this, from anyone, it sounds like absolutely nothing more than a weak attempt to excuse and diminish and shift blame over what happened last week.
    what happened last week was entirely a Republican matter.
    of course they won’t take responsibility. but that doesn’t mean anything.
    You can call it whatever you want. You can tell people outside your circle just how wrong they are and how right you are and that it will always be that way. Sometimes you will be right. But you’re not always right. If you can show me one instance of me trying to blame shift, have at it. Your response seems to me to be a refusal to deal with the left’s own mistakes and to focus entirely on the far right. Accusing me of blame-shifting and ignoring the months of outright rioting–even if they were “seasons” ago–isn’t persuasive, reasoned logic, it’s just dismissive.
    It’s not an impressive position outside your worldview. We–the country–would do better with a bit less provincialism.

  245. Yes, and there are 330 million Americans and eventually 1000 Guards showed up, so a very small number of lunatics tried to fuck with the election.
    Not to beat this to death (my usual preamble to beating it to death) but 9/11 was 19 guys with boxcutters and a relatively modest budget.
    And that got us USA Patriot Act, the Department of Homeland Security, torture as official US policy, and two wars neither of which has ever really come to a complete conclusion.
    I strongly disagree that this was just a bunch of loser assholes who posed no real threat to the nation. There were people involved who by all appearances were intent on usurping the peaceful transfer of power.
    They failed, but a lot of that – a disturbing amount of it – was luck.
    I’m not surprised to see Marty brush it off, it’s what he does. I am surprised to see some of the same language from McK.
    We’ll all get though this crap one way or another, but we’d be looking at a very different scenario today if only a couple of things had broken the other way last week.
    We were very very lucky.

  246. Yes, and there are 330 million Americans and eventually 1000 Guards showed up, so a very small number of lunatics tried to fuck with the election.
    Not to beat this to death (my usual preamble to beating it to death) but 9/11 was 19 guys with boxcutters and a relatively modest budget.
    And that got us USA Patriot Act, the Department of Homeland Security, torture as official US policy, and two wars neither of which has ever really come to a complete conclusion.
    I strongly disagree that this was just a bunch of loser assholes who posed no real threat to the nation. There were people involved who by all appearances were intent on usurping the peaceful transfer of power.
    They failed, but a lot of that – a disturbing amount of it – was luck.
    I’m not surprised to see Marty brush it off, it’s what he does. I am surprised to see some of the same language from McK.
    We’ll all get though this crap one way or another, but we’d be looking at a very different scenario today if only a couple of things had broken the other way last week.
    We were very very lucky.

  247. If you can show me one instance of me trying to blame shift, have at it.
    mmk.
    Your response seems to me to be a refusal to deal with the left’s own mistakes and to focus entirely on the far right.
    Republicans invaded the US Capitol intending to overturn the result of the November election for President.
    there is no left in the matter, except that you keep trying to drag it back in.

  248. If you can show me one instance of me trying to blame shift, have at it.
    mmk.
    Your response seems to me to be a refusal to deal with the left’s own mistakes and to focus entirely on the far right.
    Republicans invaded the US Capitol intending to overturn the result of the November election for President.
    there is no left in the matter, except that you keep trying to drag it back in.

  249. We can go back further in time and find violent extremists at both ends of the spectrum.
    But we need to focus on the situation that we have right now. Is there any real question which end is more heavily armed? Is there any real question which end is calling for using those arms to overthrow the government?
    Yes, there has been violence around some BLM demonstrations. But I’m not recalling with any which started with the leaders and organizers on a stage calling on attendies to fight. Feel free to offer an example, because I could have missed one. But we definitely saw that last Wednesday.

  250. We can go back further in time and find violent extremists at both ends of the spectrum.
    But we need to focus on the situation that we have right now. Is there any real question which end is more heavily armed? Is there any real question which end is calling for using those arms to overthrow the government?
    Yes, there has been violence around some BLM demonstrations. But I’m not recalling with any which started with the leaders and organizers on a stage calling on attendies to fight. Feel free to offer an example, because I could have missed one. But we definitely saw that last Wednesday.

  251. It’s also about class. Congress critters really hate seeing anyone meandering about their chambers, halls, and offices other than the normal high-class criminals…
    Class, race, whatever. Carve out the extremes and there is pretty broad consensus of how folks ought to behave and deal with each other, yet even within the extremes, individuals make judgments about others based a broad range of perceived criteria: how loud someone talks, their accent (whether its Hispanic or deep East Texas or hard Bronx or what have you), their pronunciation, hygiene, apparel, hair length and style, skin color, tattoos or no tattoos, and a crap ton of other intangibles. Most of these judgments are benign, or relatively so, and most are preliminary and change if and when people move from casual encounters to getting to know one another. My sense is that very few people inside the extremes think consciously about race or class or other common markers used by the political class as policy metrics. So, meh on all of that. We’re a lot more united than anyone would ever believe if all they had access to was the MSM and the left and right wing blogospheres.
    If find all of this trying to fit shit that happens into some kind race or class paradigm tiresome in the extreme. It’s as if the people doing so like seeing people divided.

  252. It’s also about class. Congress critters really hate seeing anyone meandering about their chambers, halls, and offices other than the normal high-class criminals…
    Class, race, whatever. Carve out the extremes and there is pretty broad consensus of how folks ought to behave and deal with each other, yet even within the extremes, individuals make judgments about others based a broad range of perceived criteria: how loud someone talks, their accent (whether its Hispanic or deep East Texas or hard Bronx or what have you), their pronunciation, hygiene, apparel, hair length and style, skin color, tattoos or no tattoos, and a crap ton of other intangibles. Most of these judgments are benign, or relatively so, and most are preliminary and change if and when people move from casual encounters to getting to know one another. My sense is that very few people inside the extremes think consciously about race or class or other common markers used by the political class as policy metrics. So, meh on all of that. We’re a lot more united than anyone would ever believe if all they had access to was the MSM and the left and right wing blogospheres.
    If find all of this trying to fit shit that happens into some kind race or class paradigm tiresome in the extreme. It’s as if the people doing so like seeing people divided.

  253. But I’m not recalling with any which started with the leaders and organizers on a stage calling on attendies to fight.
    or which of them had anything to do with the events of the last week (despite Republicans constantly trying to blame BLM and antifa for being there and actually doing the things Republicans said they wanted to do)
    this is not a left issue. this is a right issue.

  254. But I’m not recalling with any which started with the leaders and organizers on a stage calling on attendies to fight.
    or which of them had anything to do with the events of the last week (despite Republicans constantly trying to blame BLM and antifa for being there and actually doing the things Republicans said they wanted to do)
    this is not a left issue. this is a right issue.

  255. When I see people carrying Confederate flags, wearing “Camp Auschwitz” and “6MWNE” t-shirts, displaying swastikas in various ways, and calling black police officers n**gers, I tend to think I’m not united with them.
    I know this isn’t what you’re talking about McKinney, because you’re referring to people in general. The only question is why. We’re discussing the people who invaded the Capitol in support of President Trump (R), with his explicit encouragement, based on a notion put forth in congress exclusively by GOP members.

  256. When I see people carrying Confederate flags, wearing “Camp Auschwitz” and “6MWNE” t-shirts, displaying swastikas in various ways, and calling black police officers n**gers, I tend to think I’m not united with them.
    I know this isn’t what you’re talking about McKinney, because you’re referring to people in general. The only question is why. We’re discussing the people who invaded the Capitol in support of President Trump (R), with his explicit encouragement, based on a notion put forth in congress exclusively by GOP members.

  259. https://xkcd.com/2410/
    There have been some studies on when an idea has reached the cascade point, and moved from oddity to part of the overall culture. One indicator is when it starts shoving normal conversation aside.
    “Are we there yet?” Increasingly looking like it.

  260. https://xkcd.com/2410/
    There have been some studies on when an idea has reached the cascade point, and moved from oddity to part of the overall culture. One indicator is when it starts shoving normal conversation aside.
    “Are we there yet?” Increasingly looking like it.

  261. The mainstream media never gives up the hope that Trump will begin acting Presidential and maybe ask them out for a beer.
    https://apnews.com/article/trump-us-capitol-riot-no-responsibility-03eccd4b09d7acb6f5cce304a0afdf42
    Is there a day in the week named “Never”?
    “It’s as if the people doing so like seeing people divided.”
    Newt Gingrich and Frank Luntz, the early shaman daddies of November 6, 2021, like it.
    As a result, I tolerate it as an acquired taste since “Eat Shit” seems to be the Republican approach to human political relations and ice cream is not on the their menu.

  262. The mainstream media never gives up the hope that Trump will begin acting Presidential and maybe ask them out for a beer.
    https://apnews.com/article/trump-us-capitol-riot-no-responsibility-03eccd4b09d7acb6f5cce304a0afdf42
    Is there a day in the week named “Never”?
    “It’s as if the people doing so like seeing people divided.”
    Newt Gingrich and Frank Luntz, the early shaman daddies of November 6, 2021, like it.
    As a result, I tolerate it as an acquired taste since “Eat Shit” seems to be the Republican approach to human political relations and ice cream is not on the their menu.

  264. I’m not recalling with any which started with the leaders and organizers on a stage calling on attendies to fight.
    You can, perhaps, make that claim in Portland. Not in connection with BLM, but in connection with the primarily anarchist groups that mobbed and vandalized the federal courthouse.
    Portland is kind of a distinct phenomenon. It has a history – decades long history – of fighting between white supremacist skins and their anarchist counterparts. That got fired up by the BLM stuff, but was somewhat distinct from it, and the BLM organizers wanted little to do with it.
    Some other cities, same story, perhaps to a lesser degree. Minneapolis is one, the upper midwest and northwest in general has some of this.
    nous actually has good knowledge about all of that history. He’s lived some of it.
    There are a variety of groups banging around on the “left”, where by “left” I mean essentially really left – anarchist, anti-capitalist. Some are violent in the sense that they consistently destroy property. Some are violent toward people, but their violence is quite specifically targeted toward equally violent right-wing actors like Nazis, white supremacists, skins, Proud Boys, and the like.
    And some are just not violent.
    So, nuance.
    If you’re looking to take my temperature on where I stand with all of that:
    I’m not sympathetic or supportive of the folks who just trash stuff, including but not limited to looters. Do the crime, you do the time.
    I am sympathetic to the specifically anti-fascist brawlers, because I fncking hate Illinois Nazis and I recognize an ethical distinction between Nazis and people who punch Nazis. I just think they’re extremely counter-productive, because they’re just giving the Nazis exactly what they want. Plus, when you raise hands, you’re probably committed to that, it’s hard to walk back. It limits your options, i.e. makes it much much harder to find a more constructive path forward.
    That said, if you get into it with cops, you’re on your own. I have mixed feelings about cops, but they’re generally trying to do a job, and no cops is not really a world we feeble humans are ready for. Plus, cops vs pretty much anybody is going to end up as advantage cops, so maybe channel your anger into something more productive.
    And I’m fine with anarchists and honest-to-god lefties of any and all stripes who aren’t violent. I don’t agree with all of them, but they don’t bug me.
    So if you ever want to know, there you have it. No need to speculate.
    Also FWIW, when I say I’m not interested in nuance, I do not mean that I don’t recognize that there are all kinds of people who are conservative, and in fact all kinds of people who are Trump supporters.
    What I am not interested in is hearing justifications for anyone’s continued support for Trump. He has, amply, demonstrated that he is profoundly and irretrievably unfit for office. If you’re still getting his back, I’m just not interested in knowing why. There is no excuse.
    I’m just not interested in hearing it.
    I speak for myself, not for “the left” or whatever other political cabal you imagine I’m part of.

  266. I’m not recalling with any which started with the leaders and organizers on a stage calling on attendies to fight.
    You can, perhaps, make that claim in Portland. Not in connection with BLM, but in connection with the primarily anarchist groups that mobbed and vandalized the federal courthouse.
    Portland is kind of a distinct phenomenon. It has a history – decades long history – of fighting between white supremacist skins and their anarchist counterparts. That got fired up by the BLM stuff, but was somewhat distinct from it, and the BLM organizers wanted little to do with it.
    Some other cities, same story, perhaps to a lesser degree. Minneapolis is one, the upper midwest and northwest in general has some of this.
    nous actually has good knowledge about all of that history. He’s lived some of it.
    There are a variety of groups banging around on the “left”, where by “left” I mean essentially really left – anarchist, anti-capitalist. Some are violent in the sense that they consistently destroy property. Some are violent toward people, but their violence is quite specifically targeted toward equally violent right-wing actors like Nazis, white supremacists, skins, Proud Boys, and the like.
    And some are just not violent.
    So, nuance.
    If you’re looking to take my temperature on where I stand with all of that:
    I’m not sympathetic or supportive of the folks who just trash stuff, including but not limited to looters. Do the crime, you do the time.
    I am sympathetic to the specifically anti-fascist brawlers, because I fncking hate Illinois Nazis and I recognize an ethical distinction between Nazis and people who punch Nazis. I just think they’re extremely counter-productive, because they’re just giving the Nazis exactly what they want. Plus, when you raise hands, you’re probably committed to that, it’s hard to walk back. It limits your options, i.e. makes it much much harder to find a more constructive path forward.
    That said, if you get into it with cops, you’re on your own. I have mixed feelings about cops, but they’re generally trying to do a job, and no cops is not really a world we feeble humans are ready for. Plus, cops vs pretty much anybody is going to end up as advantage cops, so maybe channel your anger into something more productive.
    And I’m fine with anarchists and honest-to-god lefties of any and all stripes who aren’t violent. I don’t agree with all of them, but they don’t bug me.
    So if you ever want to know, there you have it. No need to speculate.
    Also FWIW, when I say I’m not interested in nuance, I do not mean that I don’t recognize that there are all kinds of people who are conservative, and in fact all kinds of people who are Trump supporters.
    What I am not interested in is hearing justifications for anyone’s continued support for Trump. He has, amply, demonstrated that he is profoundly and irretrievably unfit for office. If you’re still getting his back, I’m just not interested in knowing why. There is no excuse.
    I’m just not interested in hearing it.
    I speak for myself, not for “the left” or whatever other political cabal you imagine I’m part of.

  267. Not to beat this to death (my usual preamble to beating it to death) but 9/11 was 19 guys with boxcutters and a relatively modest budget.
    Well, maybe. Over 3000 Americans were targeted and killed and, crystal balls being what they are, no one knew what the future held. But, you make a fair point. Just because I don’t think those clowns are a real threat doesn’t make me right.
    there is no left in the matter, except that you keep trying to drag it back in.
    But we need to focus on the situation that we have right now.
    No and no. No, history did not start on January 6, 2021. No, no one gets to tell everyone else that they can only consider X or Y or Z in evaluating an issue if the person trying to lay down the terms of the debate was in a reasonably comparable position in recent memory and that person seems to be taking inconsistent positions.
    You can say you have that right, you can claim until hell won’t have it that that the only permissible focus is on what happened last week when discussing civil unrest, but saying it doesn’t make it so. In fact, it makes it worse. It gives aid and comfort to the worst of your enemies because they can, with evidence, call out your double standard and claim that the left only gives a shit when the fires start if the fires get lit by “conservatives”.
    Cleek, you in particular have been vocal about demanding that conservatives call out their own. You’ve never said the same for lefties, but leaving that aside, just how persuasive do you think someone like me is when facing down a bunch of Trumpers when they say, “ok, tell me how the left is different–they are totally fine with gunned up cops and the National Guard when its the right, but they are just the opposite when it’s BLM and Antifa.”
    You can parse that to pieces but 20 billion in property damage and a crap ton of video is a pretty solid rebuttal.

  268. Not to beat this to death (my usual preamble to beating it to death) but 9/11 was 19 guys with boxcutters and a relatively modest budget.
    Well, maybe. Over 3000 Americans were targeted and killed and, crystal balls being what they are, no one knew what the future held. But, you make a fair point. Just because I don’t think those clowns are a real threat doesn’t make me right.
    there is no left in the matter, except that you keep trying to drag it back in.
    But we need to focus on the situation that we have right now.
    No and no. No, history did not start on January 6, 2021. No, no one gets to tell everyone else that they can only consider X or Y or Z in evaluating an issue if the person trying to lay down the terms of the debate was in a reasonably comparable position in recent memory and that person seems to be taking inconsistent positions.
    You can say you have that right, you can claim until hell won’t have it that that the only permissible focus is on what happened last week when discussing civil unrest, but saying it doesn’t make it so. In fact, it makes it worse. It gives aid and comfort to the worst of your enemies because they can, with evidence, call out your double standard and claim that the left only gives a shit when the fires start if the fires get lit by “conservatives”.
    Cleek, you in particular have been vocal about demanding that conservatives call out their own. You’ve never said the same for lefties, but leaving that aside, just how persuasive do you think someone like me is when facing down a bunch of Trumpers when they say, “ok, tell me how the left is different–they are totally fine with gunned up cops and the National Guard when its the right, but they are just the opposite when it’s BLM and Antifa.”
    You can parse that to pieces but 20 billion in property damage and a crap ton of video is a pretty solid rebuttal.

  271. McKinney – I’m in So Cal and there are about five places within a non-trivial drive at which I can shoot. Four of those are indoor ranges. The outdoor range has severe safety problems and the owners’ son, a convicted felon, keeps getting in trouble for working in the wrong areas and handling firearms. People have died at the range of gunshot wounds because the pistol ranges are *behind* the berm for the rifle range. Somehow they still manage to stay in the NRA’s good graces and regularly host NRA sponsored family firearm intro events.
    The other four ranges all have competent range people, but they weird me out with their now-standard mix of paranoia and bravado. Way too much of an NRA TV vibe for my taste and I have a hard time recommending any of them to the people I know who are curious about firearms.
    I miss the days when the ranges were mostly filled with Fudds who stressed safety and marksmanship and maintenance and were oriented towards hunting. Every single one these days is infected with black rifle fever. Even the old gun club I grew up near in rural WI has more yahoos with tac gear shooting human silhouettes from close range than people trying to get a tight grouping at 100 yards with their deer rifle.

  272. McKinney – I’m in So Cal and there are about five places within a non-trivial drive at which I can shoot. Four of those are indoor ranges. The outdoor range has severe safety problems and the owners’ son, a convicted felon, keeps getting in trouble for working in the wrong areas and handling firearms. People have died at the range of gunshot wounds because the pistol ranges are *behind* the berm for the rifle range. Somehow they still manage to stay in the NRA’s good graces and regularly host NRA sponsored family firearm intro events.
    The other four ranges all have competent range people, but they weird me out with their now-standard mix of paranoia and bravado. Way too much of an NRA TV vibe for my taste and I have a hard time recommending any of them to the people I know who are curious about firearms.
    I miss the days when the ranges were mostly filled with Fudds who stressed safety and marksmanship and maintenance and were oriented towards hunting. Every single one these days is infected with black rifle fever. Even the old gun club I grew up near in rural WI has more yahoos with tac gear shooting human silhouettes from close range than people trying to get a tight grouping at 100 yards with their deer rifle.

  273. “ok, tell me how the left is different–they are totally fine with gunned up cops and the National Guard when its the right, but they are just the opposite when it’s BLM and Antifa.”
    Now who’s lumping everyone on the right together? ;^)

  274. “ok, tell me how the left is different–they are totally fine with gunned up cops and the National Guard when its the right, but they are just the opposite when it’s BLM and Antifa.”
    Now who’s lumping everyone on the right together? ;^)

  275. I know this isn’t what you’re talking about McKinney, because you’re referring to people in general. The only question is why.
    I think I was pretty clear that I was speaking specifically of people inside the extremes. Of course, no one is united with nazi’s or confederate bitter-enders or whatever. The why of it is that “serious people” seem to only be able to assess issues in terms of race or class. I think that’s bullshit when those are the only metrics. Worse, I think it’s divisive and does a disservice. Which I what I thought I said above and I said in response to CWT’s comment.
    I just think they’re extremely counter-productive, because they’re just giving the Nazis exactly what they want.
    Plus, I’m not so sure their collective sensitivity as to who is a fascist and who is not is all that discerning. So, there is that too.
    What I am not interested in is hearing justifications for anyone’s continued support for Trump. He has, amply, demonstrated that he is profoundly and irretrievably unfit for office. If you’re still getting his back, I’m just not interested in knowing why. There is no excuse.
    I’m just not interested in hearing it.
    Ok, sure. I get that being a Trumper post 1-6-21 doesn’t make any sense (if it ever did), but to recast my comment to Cleek: so do we just ignore them? Tell them all they are just a bunch of unregenerate assholes and call it a day? Quit trying to reach them, quit trying to move the needle a bit, and over time maybe move it a lot?

  276. I know this isn’t what you’re talking about McKinney, because you’re referring to people in general. The only question is why.
    I think I was pretty clear that I was speaking specifically of people inside the extremes. Of course, no one is united with nazi’s or confederate bitter-enders or whatever. The why of it is that “serious people” seem to only be able to assess issues in terms of race or class. I think that’s bullshit when those are the only metrics. Worse, I think it’s divisive and does a disservice. Which I what I thought I said above and I said in response to CWT’s comment.
    I just think they’re extremely counter-productive, because they’re just giving the Nazis exactly what they want.
    Plus, I’m not so sure their collective sensitivity as to who is a fascist and who is not is all that discerning. So, there is that too.
    What I am not interested in is hearing justifications for anyone’s continued support for Trump. He has, amply, demonstrated that he is profoundly and irretrievably unfit for office. If you’re still getting his back, I’m just not interested in knowing why. There is no excuse.
    I’m just not interested in hearing it.
    Ok, sure. I get that being a Trumper post 1-6-21 doesn’t make any sense (if it ever did), but to recast my comment to Cleek: so do we just ignore them? Tell them all they are just a bunch of unregenerate assholes and call it a day? Quit trying to reach them, quit trying to move the needle a bit, and over time maybe move it a lot?

  277. On a more serious note, related to my last comment, if we were talking about the March for Life, I don’t think many people, on the left or otherwise, would expect a large armed presence the be on hand to prevent rioting. I also don’t think many people would consider the March for Life to be a left-oriented event. Quite the opposite.

  278. On a more serious note, related to my last comment, if we were talking about the March for Life, I don’t think many people, on the left or otherwise, would expect a large armed presence the be on hand to prevent rioting. I also don’t think many people would consider the March for Life to be a left-oriented event. Quite the opposite.

  279. McTX: … just how persuasive do you think someone like me is when facing down a bunch of Trumpers when they say, “ok, tell me how the left is different …
    Try: “No leftie POTUS ever exhorted a mob of his supporters to invade the Capitol”.
    When that gets you nowhere, ask: “Do you believe the 2020 election was stolen?”
    If they say anything but “No”, give up.
    –TP

  280. McTX: … just how persuasive do you think someone like me is when facing down a bunch of Trumpers when they say, “ok, tell me how the left is different …
    Try: “No leftie POTUS ever exhorted a mob of his supporters to invade the Capitol”.
    When that gets you nowhere, ask: “Do you believe the 2020 election was stolen?”
    If they say anything but “No”, give up.
    –TP

  281. In the ’90s I was friends with a person who regularly got invited to go shooting with the staff from Paladin Press at their favorite range outside of Boulder. I know the taste of paranoia well. Some good people, like my late friend, but rubbing shoulders with some of the most marginal SOBs on the right.
    That level of paranoid has seeped deep within the right. Half the people I know who are gun nuts sound like those Paladin Press guys every time they start to talk about firearms these days.

  282. In the ’90s I was friends with a person who regularly got invited to go shooting with the staff from Paladin Press at their favorite range outside of Boulder. I know the taste of paranoia well. Some good people, like my late friend, but rubbing shoulders with some of the most marginal SOBs on the right.
    That level of paranoid has seeped deep within the right. Half the people I know who are gun nuts sound like those Paladin Press guys every time they start to talk about firearms these days.

  283. You can say you have that right, you can claim until hell won’t have it that that the only permissible focus is on what happened last week when discussing civil unrest, but saying it doesn’t make it so.
    we were talking about what happened on the 6th. but you keep trying to broaden the scope to include stuff you don’t like about the left. it’s kindof your M.O., frankly.
    the Republican party now includes a lot of people who literally want to overthrow the government and who tried it once, and who are planning to try it again. but you want to talk about past events, i guess because it gives you a reason to complain about the left? but really, there are more important things going on right now.

  284. You can say you have that right, you can claim until hell won’t have it that that the only permissible focus is on what happened last week when discussing civil unrest, but saying it doesn’t make it so.
    we were talking about what happened on the 6th. but you keep trying to broaden the scope to include stuff you don’t like about the left. it’s kindof your M.O., frankly.
    the Republican party now includes a lot of people who literally want to overthrow the government and who tried it once, and who are planning to try it again. but you want to talk about past events, i guess because it gives you a reason to complain about the left? but really, there are more important things going on right now.

  285. Not to beat this to death (my usual preamble to beating it to death) but 9/11 was 19 guys with boxcutters and a relatively modest budget.
    And an enormous hole in the protocol for handling attempted hijackings. Once there was a DHS and they started looking, there were a variety of other big holes. IIRC, electric utilities had been allowed to put several cities in the position that 19 guys with a half-dozen garbage trucks could knock out the local power grid for six months.

  286. Not to beat this to death (my usual preamble to beating it to death) but 9/11 was 19 guys with boxcutters and a relatively modest budget.
    And an enormous hole in the protocol for handling attempted hijackings. Once there was a DHS and they started looking, there were a variety of other big holes. IIRC, electric utilities had been allowed to put several cities in the position that 19 guys with a half-dozen garbage trucks could knock out the local power grid for six months.

  289. do we just ignore them? Tell them all they are just a bunch of unregenerate assholes and call it a day? Quit trying to reach them, quit trying to move the needle a bit, and over time maybe move it a lot?
    No to the first two, I’ve decided to retire from the field on the last.
    I have friends and family who are Trumpers, at various degrees of hard core. I don’t give them a hard time about it, I don’t talk to them about it at all.
    We talk about other things, and enjoy each other’s company.
    I have no expectation of moving the needle, and I’d rather enjoy them as people.
    If I were more conservative myself, I might have better odds of making a connection with them on social and political stuff. I encourage anyone who can make that kind of connection to do so and see if you can turn them around.
    Or not even ‘turn them around’, that’s kind of condescending. See if you can get them to acknowledge some common set of agreed upon facts. Like, Biden won the election, or COVID is actually a thing. And maybe go from there.
    I don’t have the patience for it anymore. A failing on my part, no doubt.

  290. do we just ignore them? Tell them all they are just a bunch of unregenerate assholes and call it a day? Quit trying to reach them, quit trying to move the needle a bit, and over time maybe move it a lot?
    No to the first two, I’ve decided to retire from the field on the last.
    I have friends and family who are Trumpers, at various degrees of hard core. I don’t give them a hard time about it, I don’t talk to them about it at all.
    We talk about other things, and enjoy each other’s company.
    I have no expectation of moving the needle, and I’d rather enjoy them as people.
    If I were more conservative myself, I might have better odds of making a connection with them on social and political stuff. I encourage anyone who can make that kind of connection to do so and see if you can turn them around.
    Or not even ‘turn them around’, that’s kind of condescending. See if you can get them to acknowledge some common set of agreed upon facts. Like, Biden won the election, or COVID is actually a thing. And maybe go from there.
    I don’t have the patience for it anymore. A failing on my part, no doubt.

  291. The other four ranges all have competent range people, but they weird me out with their now-standard mix of paranoia and bravado. Way too much of an NRA TV vibe for my taste and I have a hard time recommending any of them to the people I know who are curious about firearms.
    Yeah, I’ve seen some of that at one location west of Austin. D-bags waiting for the End Times and all that. Beyond tiresome.
    I miss the days when the ranges were mostly filled with Fudds who stressed safety and marksmanship and maintenance and were oriented towards hunting. Every single one these days is infected with black rifle fever. Even the old gun club I grew up near in rural WI has more yahoos with tac gear shooting human silhouettes from close range than people trying to get a tight grouping at 100 yards with their deer rifle.
    Yep, and there is a lot more here than meets the eye. You and I obviously have more than our share of disagreements at the policy level. Ok, I wouldn’t come here if I was looking for validation. Quite frankly, at my age and looking back of the last nearly 67 years, I don’t feel any particular need for validation. I self-validate like it’s going out of style. That said, there was a time here at ObWi when the debates were every bit as fierce, but the tone/tenor was a bit lower, a bit more comity-ish. I miss those days.
    Now, back to the point I was going to make: you miss being able to go someplace and not get someone else’s weird-ass political views jammed down your throat. Let me observe that that is a two-way street. A far right guy would feel quite at home at those gun ranges. You, not so much.
    Let me propose that there are a lot of people who do not like going to what should be a politically neutral venue and find out they are involuntarily patronizing a viewpoint they do not agree with.
    I’m not attempting a threadjack or to relitigate taking a knee or the NBA’s uncritical embrace of BLM. Rather, I’m making the point that we can all use a break from hearing about someone else’s sincerely held beliefs.

  292. The other four ranges all have competent range people, but they weird me out with their now-standard mix of paranoia and bravado. Way too much of an NRA TV vibe for my taste and I have a hard time recommending any of them to the people I know who are curious about firearms.
    Yeah, I’ve seen some of that at one location west of Austin. D-bags waiting for the End Times and all that. Beyond tiresome.
    I miss the days when the ranges were mostly filled with Fudds who stressed safety and marksmanship and maintenance and were oriented towards hunting. Every single one these days is infected with black rifle fever. Even the old gun club I grew up near in rural WI has more yahoos with tac gear shooting human silhouettes from close range than people trying to get a tight grouping at 100 yards with their deer rifle.
    Yep, and there is a lot more here than meets the eye. You and I obviously have more than our share of disagreements at the policy level. Ok, I wouldn’t come here if I was looking for validation. Quite frankly, at my age and looking back of the last nearly 67 years, I don’t feel any particular need for validation. I self-validate like it’s going out of style. That said, there was a time here at ObWi when the debates were every bit as fierce, but the tone/tenor was a bit lower, a bit more comity-ish. I miss those days.
    Now, back to the point I was going to make: you miss being able to go someplace and not get someone else’s weird-ass political views jammed down your throat. Let me observe that that is a two-way street. A far right guy would feel quite at home at those gun ranges. You, not so much.
    Let me propose that there are a lot of people who do not like going to what should be a politically neutral venue and find out they are involuntarily patronizing a viewpoint they do not agree with.
    I’m not attempting a threadjack or to relitigate taking a knee or the NBA’s uncritical embrace of BLM. Rather, I’m making the point that we can all use a break from hearing about someone else’s sincerely held beliefs.

  293. Last comment for the moment – the looting and property damage that accompanied the George Floyd protests were a one-off, and the scenes at the courthouses and capitols were a *response* to the violence with which the *peaceful protesters* were met. No one on the left cared if looters were thrown in jail, but all of the cops and contractors were busy at the protests.
    The studies and the analysis of the surveillance videos are clear (and I’ve watched a lot of it). The security forces respond far more aggressively and proactively to protests from the left that involve a lot of angry people of color than they do when faced with a mostly white crowd of upset right wingers.
    And right wing media has a nasty habit of showing unrelated violence and scenes of destruction – sometimes from foreign countries, sometimes from previous weeks when the tensions were greater – while they talk about the violence in American cities. They oversell the race riot and undersell the open insurrection, all so that they can ease the cognitive dissonance for people who believe that theirs is the only redemptive violence.

  294. Last comment for the moment – the looting and property damage that accompanied the George Floyd protests were a one-off, and the scenes at the courthouses and capitols were a *response* to the violence with which the *peaceful protesters* were met. No one on the left cared if looters were thrown in jail, but all of the cops and contractors were busy at the protests.
    The studies and the analysis of the surveillance videos are clear (and I’ve watched a lot of it). The security forces respond far more aggressively and proactively to protests from the left that involve a lot of angry people of color than they do when faced with a mostly white crowd of upset right wingers.
    And right wing media has a nasty habit of showing unrelated violence and scenes of destruction – sometimes from foreign countries, sometimes from previous weeks when the tensions were greater – while they talk about the violence in American cities. They oversell the race riot and undersell the open insurrection, all so that they can ease the cognitive dissonance for people who believe that theirs is the only redemptive violence.

  297. For those hoping for some healing and unity, here are some ideas.
    Pretty much where I’m at.
    Most of the folks asking for ‘healing’ and ‘unity’ at this point are really asking for the rest of us to make nice.
    Some countries have found truth and reconciliation efforts to be helpful after significant social divide.
    The first word there is ‘truth’, and it comes before ‘reconciliation’.

  298. For those hoping for some healing and unity, here are some ideas.
    Pretty much where I’m at.
    Most of the folks asking for ‘healing’ and ‘unity’ at this point are really asking for the rest of us to make nice.
    Some countries have found truth and reconciliation efforts to be helpful after significant social divide.
    The first word there is ‘truth’, and it comes before ‘reconciliation’.

  299. Henry Olsen on the same topic.
    Olsen’s one of WaPo’s conservative commentators, but he’s usually more level-headed than Hewitt and Thiessen, who are both animated piles of garbage.

    While rarely openly expressed in these terms, this undercurrent has been clear in polls. A Pew Research Center poll from September 2019 shows that across a number of characteristics, nearly three-quarters of both parties said they cannot agree on common facts. Majorities in both parties also say the other side doesn’t share nonpolitical values and goals with them. One can only imagine how these numbers look today after the events of the past year and a half.
    This means that creating unity, if it is possible, must be an active process rather than something Americans passively resort to. Leaders of both parties need to look at their counterparts as adversaries, not enemies, and strive to find common ground rather than default into their respective silos.
    It’s tempting to say that the burden of doing so should be equally shared. The riot last week makes that impossible. Republicans will need to make the first move to build trust so that national unity around common values is possible.
    At a minimum, that requires acknowledging that the election was free, fair and reflective of the people’s will.

    that’s definitely a start.

    It also requires open acknowledgment that the riot was not the result of antifa or Black Lives Matter protesters. There might have been some rogue infiltrators, but the overwhelming weight of the evidence is that MAGA believers, not the violent left, stormed the Capitol. Again, there are certainly degrees of culpability even among these people. But it was the Republicans’ side that ransacked our national temple, and no one else’s.

    yup

    We can rebuild the space for normal, intense political dialogue only if we rebuild the platform of shared citizenship upon which those debates can take place. Let us pray that leaders from both parties publicly commit themselves to this goal and, if necessary, face down their intra-party adversaries in its pursuit. If and when this occurs, only then can we begin to see the light at the end of this very dark tunnel.

    i honestly can’t think of a better guy to be President right now, faced with that challenge, than Joe Biden.

  300. Henry Olsen on the same topic.
    Olsen’s one of WaPo’s conservative commentators, but he’s usually more level-headed than Hewitt and Thiessen, who are both animated piles of garbage.

    While rarely openly expressed in these terms, this undercurrent has been clear in polls. A Pew Research Center poll from September 2019 shows that across a number of characteristics, nearly three-quarters of both parties said they cannot agree on common facts. Majorities in both parties also say the other side doesn’t share nonpolitical values and goals with them. One can only imagine how these numbers look today after the events of the past year and a half.
    This means that creating unity, if it is possible, must be an active process rather than something Americans passively resort to. Leaders of both parties need to look at their counterparts as adversaries, not enemies, and strive to find common ground rather than default into their respective silos.
    It’s tempting to say that the burden of doing so should be equally shared. The riot last week makes that impossible. Republicans will need to make the first move to build trust so that national unity around common values is possible.
    At a minimum, that requires acknowledging that the election was free, fair and reflective of the people’s will.

    that’s definitely a start.

    It also requires open acknowledgment that the riot was not the result of antifa or Black Lives Matter protesters. There might have been some rogue infiltrators, but the overwhelming weight of the evidence is that MAGA believers, not the violent left, stormed the Capitol. Again, there are certainly degrees of culpability even among these people. But it was the Republicans’ side that ransacked our national temple, and no one else’s.

    yup

    We can rebuild the space for normal, intense political dialogue only if we rebuild the platform of shared citizenship upon which those debates can take place. Let us pray that leaders from both parties publicly commit themselves to this goal and, if necessary, face down their intra-party adversaries in its pursuit. If and when this occurs, only then can we begin to see the light at the end of this very dark tunnel.

    i honestly can’t think of a better guy to be President right now, faced with that challenge, than Joe Biden.

  301. I’m making the point that we can all use a break from hearing about someone else’s sincerely held beliefs.
    This is an interesting point, and I have a question.
    ObWi is basically my venue for talking intensively about politics. I make the odd comment on FB, and click some “like” and “angry” emojis, but I don’t really get into it there beyond that.
    Other than online, I talk with my wife about political stuff, and maybe 2 or 3 friends, occasionally.
    Other than ObWi I may go days without getting into political discussion or debate, with anybody.
    Are the rest of us here like that? Or are folks as overtly political IRL as they are here?
    Just curious.

  302. I’m making the point that we can all use a break from hearing about someone else’s sincerely held beliefs.
    This is an interesting point, and I have a question.
    ObWi is basically my venue for talking intensively about politics. I make the odd comment on FB, and click some “like” and “angry” emojis, but I don’t really get into it there beyond that.
    Other than online, I talk with my wife about political stuff, and maybe 2 or 3 friends, occasionally.
    Other than ObWi I may go days without getting into political discussion or debate, with anybody.
    Are the rest of us here like that? Or are folks as overtly political IRL as they are here?
    Just curious.

  305. i honestly can’t think of a better guy to be President right now, faced with that challenge, than Joe Biden.
    I hope so. So far, so good.
    Are the rest of us here like that? Or are folks as overtly political IRL as they are here?
    Just curious.
    Normally not, but the election and post-election BS changed a lot of stuff.

  306. i honestly can’t think of a better guy to be President right now, faced with that challenge, than Joe Biden.
    I hope so. So far, so good.
    Are the rest of us here like that? Or are folks as overtly political IRL as they are here?
    Just curious.
    Normally not, but the election and post-election BS changed a lot of stuff.

  307. i honestly can’t think of a better guy to be President right now, faced with that challenge, than Joe Biden.
    My opinion:
    Joe Biden is a gift, from the (D)’s of the nation, to the (R)’s. Maybe not intended as such, and maybe offered with some reluctance, but a gift nonetheless.
    Biden represents an open invitation to put the hostility aside. If conservative folks, here or elsewhere, don’t get that, they should.
    I’m not talking about policy details, because there are always going to be points of disagreement there. And, there should be. And, that’s fine.
    Biden is not going to call anybody a deplorable, or at least if he does, they’re gonna have to really earn it. He has many friends of quite long-standing among (R) legislators. He’s not a fire-breathing dude.
    He’s not Clinton, he’s not Warren, he’s not Bernie. He’s Uncle freaking Joe. He’s a reasonable guy, and wants the country – all of it – to do well.
    That’s my take on it, anyway.
    Take the gift. Take the opportunity. That’s my advice.
    Nobody can make any of you do it, but the offer is there.

  308. i honestly can’t think of a better guy to be President right now, faced with that challenge, than Joe Biden.
    My opinion:
    Joe Biden is a gift, from the (D)’s of the nation, to the (R)’s. Maybe not intended as such, and maybe offered with some reluctance, but a gift nonetheless.
    Biden represents an open invitation to put the hostility aside. If conservative folks, here or elsewhere, don’t get that, they should.
    I’m not talking about policy details, because there are always going to be points of disagreement there. And, there should be. And, that’s fine.
    Biden is not going to call anybody a deplorable, or at least if he does, they’re gonna have to really earn it. He has many friends of quite long-standing among (R) legislators. He’s not a fire-breathing dude.
    He’s not Clinton, he’s not Warren, he’s not Bernie. He’s Uncle freaking Joe. He’s a reasonable guy, and wants the country – all of it – to do well.
    That’s my take on it, anyway.
    Take the gift. Take the opportunity. That’s my advice.
    Nobody can make any of you do it, but the offer is there.

  309. Are the rest of us here like that? Or are folks as overtly political IRL as they are here?
    not even a little.
    wife and i will talk about stuff. i pay more attention than she does so sometime i’ll have to explain a reference in a joke or something.
    even amongst my lefty friends, i won’t bring it up, and i stay out of it if it comes up. i have some very passionate (though not really radical) friends. and talking Trump will wreck their mood in a flash. so i don’t add fuel.

  310. Are the rest of us here like that? Or are folks as overtly political IRL as they are here?
    not even a little.
    wife and i will talk about stuff. i pay more attention than she does so sometime i’ll have to explain a reference in a joke or something.
    even amongst my lefty friends, i won’t bring it up, and i stay out of it if it comes up. i have some very passionate (though not really radical) friends. and talking Trump will wreck their mood in a flash. so i don’t add fuel.

  311. Biden represents an open invitation to put the hostility aside.
    …
    Nobody can make any of you do it, but the offer is there.
    Anybody unwilling to accept the invitation is basically saying “my way or the highway.” Except that, in this case, they are the ones who will have to go. Not sure if they can find a country anywhere willing to take them.** But if they won’t take the invitation, there’s simply no place for them here.
    ** Not to be hyperbolic here. But the only other option to leaving, as far as I can see, is suicide attacks. Heavy emphasis on the “suicide”. I really, really don’t want to see that. But that’s where we are.

  312. Biden represents an open invitation to put the hostility aside.
    …
    Nobody can make any of you do it, but the offer is there.
    Anybody unwilling to accept the invitation is basically saying “my way or the highway.” Except that, in this case, they are the ones who will have to go. Not sure if they can find a country anywhere willing to take them.** But if they won’t take the invitation, there’s simply no place for them here.
    ** Not to be hyperbolic here. But the only other option to leaving, as far as I can see, is suicide attacks. Heavy emphasis on the “suicide”. I really, really don’t want to see that. But that’s where we are.

  315. Joe Biden is a gift, from the (D)’s of the nation, to the (R)’s. Maybe not intended as such, and maybe offered with some reluctance, but a gift nonetheless.
    Biden represents an open invitation to put the hostility aside. If conservative folks, here or elsewhere, don’t get that, they should.
    When faced with unrest and grievance and deep polarization, the Democrats – and the vast majority of African-American voters – chose Biden. Sanders was right there. He has been for two elections now. The D’s chose caution, sometimes maddeningly so.
    When faced with the same things in the last two elections, the Republicans have chosen Trump the accelerationist firebrand over all less radical alternatives. The second time he ran unopposed for all practical purposes. And the people who had opposed him for obvious reasons all carried water for his worst urges and his lies for four years.
    The left has some extremists and some accelerationists. They aren’t winning.
    But if the GOP cannot as an institution either turn the ship around or split itself off from the crazies who are driving this conflict the Dem’s are going to have an increasingly hard time trying to appeal to the center.

  316. Joe Biden is a gift, from the (D)’s of the nation, to the (R)’s. Maybe not intended as such, and maybe offered with some reluctance, but a gift nonetheless.
    Biden represents an open invitation to put the hostility aside. If conservative folks, here or elsewhere, don’t get that, they should.
    When faced with unrest and grievance and deep polarization, the Democrats – and the vast majority of African-American voters – chose Biden. Sanders was right there. He has been for two elections now. The D’s chose caution, sometimes maddeningly so.
    When faced with the same things in the last two elections, the Republicans have chosen Trump the accelerationist firebrand over all less radical alternatives. The second time he ran unopposed for all practical purposes. And the people who had opposed him for obvious reasons all carried water for his worst urges and his lies for four years.
    The left has some extremists and some accelerationists. They aren’t winning.
    But if the GOP cannot as an institution either turn the ship around or split itself off from the crazies who are driving this conflict the Dem’s are going to have an increasingly hard time trying to appeal to the center.

  317. My wife and I never discuss politics. I have a Trump diehard friend that I piss off regularly and lots of left leaning friends I wouldn’t ever talk politics with. My FB has 0 people that post political comments, mimes etc., anyone who does is immediate unfollowed.
    Here is the only place I engage with anyone on the left. Except for that one friend I dont engage anyone on the right anymore.

  318. My wife and I never discuss politics. I have a Trump diehard friend that I piss off regularly and lots of left leaning friends I wouldn’t ever talk politics with. My FB has 0 people that post political comments, mimes etc., anyone who does is immediate unfollowed.
    Here is the only place I engage with anyone on the left. Except for that one friend I dont engage anyone on the right anymore.

  321. But if the GOP cannot as an institution either turn the ship around or split itself off from the crazies who are driving this conflict the Dem’s are going to have an increasingly hard time trying to appeal to the center.
    Agree. The Tea Party morphed into the DT party, obliterating principled conservatism as a viable force in the national conversation.

  322. But if the GOP cannot as an institution either turn the ship around or split itself off from the crazies who are driving this conflict the Dem’s are going to have an increasingly hard time trying to appeal to the center.
    Agree. The Tea Party morphed into the DT party, obliterating principled conservatism as a viable force in the national conversation.

  323. Politics is important to my family, both my immediate family growing up and my immediate family now. We talk politics a lot, and mostly vote the same way, but have fairly heated discussions about details. I don’t talk politics extensively with Republican in-laws (there are a few of them).
    My friends vote mostly for Democrats. Many of the women I know engage regularly in various forms of activism, so we talk about that and inform each other about what we’re doing so that we can all have things to do.
    I have some friend groups where very little politics is discussed, but when we do talk, it’s clear that we’re not disagreeing about much. I tend not to bring it up. I don’t have any close friends who are Republicans.
    When I attend gatherings with friends of friends, I sometimes encounter Republicans, but in those settings we don’t talk about politics other than a word here or there before the subject is changed.

  324. Politics is important to my family, both my immediate family growing up and my immediate family now. We talk politics a lot, and mostly vote the same way, but have fairly heated discussions about details. I don’t talk politics extensively with Republican in-laws (there are a few of them).
    My friends vote mostly for Democrats. Many of the women I know engage regularly in various forms of activism, so we talk about that and inform each other about what we’re doing so that we can all have things to do.
    I have some friend groups where very little politics is discussed, but when we do talk, it’s clear that we’re not disagreeing about much. I tend not to bring it up. I don’t have any close friends who are Republicans.
    When I attend gatherings with friends of friends, I sometimes encounter Republicans, but in those settings we don’t talk about politics other than a word here or there before the subject is changed.

  325. Are the rest of us here like that? Or are folks as overtly political IRL as they are here?
    At least as overtly political IRL, as were my parents, and as are almost all of my close friends. Most in the liberal/lefty of various shades mode, but one or two right or rightish and in the case of a US friend for the last 55 years, originally R and post 2016 pro-Trump. In the latter case, we have not referred to US politics for the last four years by mutual consent. I would be too scared to discuss recent events with her, in case she is all-in for the Trump project which would be enormously upsetting for me.

  326. Are the rest of us here like that? Or are folks as overtly political IRL as they are here?
    At least as overtly political IRL, as were my parents, and as are almost all of my close friends. Most in the liberal/lefty of various shades mode, but one or two right or rightish and in the case of a US friend for the last 55 years, originally R and post 2016 pro-Trump. In the latter case, we have not referred to US politics for the last four years by mutual consent. I would be too scared to discuss recent events with her, in case she is all-in for the Trump project which would be enormously upsetting for me.

  327. Somewhat on topic, from a conservative writer:
    Donald Trump should be impeached, convicted, and removed from office.
    If it takes until five minutes before Joe Biden is sworn in to get it done, then so be it. And if Trump runs out the clock, then he should be impeached and convicted after the fact, barring him from ever holding office again and providing a prelude to his likely prosecution on criminal charges in several jurisdictions.
    This process should have started before the sacking of the Capitol by the mob he whipped up a week ago. It should have started with the release of the recording of the telephone call between Trump and Georgia secretary of state Brad Raffensperger, which documented the president’s attempt to suborn election fraud in Georgia. This was a scheme to effect a coup d’état by means of rank corruption. If that is not an impeachment-worthy offense, nothing is.

  328. Somewhat on topic, from a conservative writer:
    Donald Trump should be impeached, convicted, and removed from office.
    If it takes until five minutes before Joe Biden is sworn in to get it done, then so be it. And if Trump runs out the clock, then he should be impeached and convicted after the fact, barring him from ever holding office again and providing a prelude to his likely prosecution on criminal charges in several jurisdictions.
    This process should have started before the sacking of the Capitol by the mob he whipped up a week ago. It should have started with the release of the recording of the telephone call between Trump and Georgia secretary of state Brad Raffensperger, which documented the president’s attempt to suborn election fraud in Georgia. This was a scheme to effect a coup d’état by means of rank corruption. If that is not an impeachment-worthy offense, nothing is.

  331. I’m more or less where cleek and russell are.
    As facebook goes, I occasionally, very occasionally, post something mildly snarky but usually not too in-your-face on politics. I have friends on both sides, but most of them on the right, who are always on about something. (I don’t mean that people on the right are on about something more than people on the left. I mean that most of my friends are on the right, particularly the ones I grew up with.)
    The way-out-there stuff, I mostly try to ignore without comment. Some stuff, if I think I can get through to someone at all, I might comment on. But I mostly just post absurd apolitical crap, sort of to make fun of the whole phenomenon of social media.
    In person, which there isn’t much of these days, I generally have to respond to my friends who know I don’t think the way they do and want to start a (usually drunken) political argument. I’ll sometimes entertain it if it’s in good fun, but shut it down otherwise. “Maybe we should just talk about something else” works surprisingly well.
    I will jokingly address my few older friends who are more liberal as “comrade” to acknowledge that we’re outnumbered and that our other friends have weird caricatured notions about what we actually believe.

  332. I’m more or less where cleek and russell are.
    As facebook goes, I occasionally, very occasionally, post something mildly snarky but usually not too in-your-face on politics. I have friends on both sides, but most of them on the right, who are always on about something. (I don’t mean that people on the right are on about something more than people on the left. I mean that most of my friends are on the right, particularly the ones I grew up with.)
    The way-out-there stuff, I mostly try to ignore without comment. Some stuff, if I think I can get through to someone at all, I might comment on. But I mostly just post absurd apolitical crap, sort of to make fun of the whole phenomenon of social media.
    In person, which there isn’t much of these days, I generally have to respond to my friends who know I don’t think the way they do and want to start a (usually drunken) political argument. I’ll sometimes entertain it if it’s in good fun, but shut it down otherwise. “Maybe we should just talk about something else” works surprisingly well.
    I will jokingly address my few older friends who are more liberal as “comrade” to acknowledge that we’re outnumbered and that our other friends have weird caricatured notions about what we actually believe.

  333. So, as LGM points out in the 4:08, the reps who object represent an older, whiter voter with less educational attainment than their new neighbor of color But the reps are busy trying to reverse the trend rather than tack to center because they don’t dare find themselves out of step with the national party when it is in a bloody minded mood.

  334. So, as LGM points out in the 4:08, the reps who object represent an older, whiter voter with less educational attainment than their new neighbor of color But the reps are busy trying to reverse the trend rather than tack to center because they don’t dare find themselves out of step with the national party when it is in a bloody minded mood.

  337. For me, McKinney’s quote at 4:02 pretty well nails it. If this wasn’t grounds for impeachment and removal, what ever would be?
    (Any chance for a link to the source?)

  338. For me, McKinney’s quote at 4:02 pretty well nails it. If this wasn’t grounds for impeachment and removal, what ever would be?
    (Any chance for a link to the source?)

  341. Which I what I thought I said above and I said in response to CWT’s comment.
    I was just trying to be snarky by implying that the everyday inhabitants of Congress didn’t like seeing low-class rioters, trespassers, vandals, etc. in their spaces. Only just high-class criminals like themselves.

  342. Which I what I thought I said above and I said in response to CWT’s comment.
    I was just trying to be snarky by implying that the everyday inhabitants of Congress didn’t like seeing low-class rioters, trespassers, vandals, etc. in their spaces. Only just high-class criminals like themselves.

  343. it’s kindof your M.O., frankly.
    kindof? LOL. It’s always. Yup, if you are not down on your knees begging McKinney for forgiveness for not denouncing the crimes of Stalin all the time then you are an unrepentant hypocrite, and that is pretty much the end of the discussion as the demonstrable hypocrisy of “the left” is the only thing worth talking about. Sucks to be you, libs.
    But let me digress a bit….
    In the context of the good ol’ USA, we have the following:
    The left is generally right (I would’ve preferred the term “correct” but that would mark me as a Stalinist, and I detest Stalinists-all three of them).
    The right is just about always wrong.
    Violence is wrong, but sometimes it is deemed necessary by just about everybody, so the question is not the violence per se, but its justification(s). There appear to be many.
    Race and class are bedrock and pervasive parameters that underlay our politics. To not discuss them is like a determination to discuss drowning without mentioning water.
    With malice toward none, and charity to all….have a good day. We’re due.

  344. it’s kindof your M.O., frankly.
    kindof? LOL. It’s always. Yup, if you are not down on your knees begging McKinney for forgiveness for not denouncing the crimes of Stalin all the time then you are an unrepentant hypocrite, and that is pretty much the end of the discussion as the demonstrable hypocrisy of “the left” is the only thing worth talking about. Sucks to be you, libs.
    But let me digress a bit….
    In the context of the good ol’ USA, we have the following:
    The left is generally right (I would’ve preferred the term “correct” but that would mark me as a Stalinist, and I detest Stalinists-all three of them).
    The right is just about always wrong.
    Violence is wrong, but sometimes it is deemed necessary by just about everybody, so the question is not the violence per se, but its justification(s). There appear to be many.
    Race and class are bedrock and pervasive parameters that underlay our politics. To not discuss them is like a determination to discuss drowning without mentioning water.
    With malice toward none, and charity to all….have a good day. We’re due.

  345. So, as LGM points out in the 4:08, the reps who object represent an older, whiter voter with less educational attainment than their new neighbor of color But the reps are busy trying to reverse the trend rather than tack to center because they don’t dare find themselves out of step with the national party when it is in a bloody minded mood.
    I have, more than once, demonstrated my mastery of math and statistics here at ObWi. Let’s just say that McKTex’s math resides in an alternate universe.
    I don’t think the LGM article proves the point. I agree there are some correlations, much more so at the extremes, between race/class and *outlook*. Voting patterns change over time–and will continue to change–and since we are a racially diverse country, there will be changes in racial voting patterns.
    But that was not my point. I have law partners and friends who vote Democrat. But, we have far, far more in common than not. I strongly suspect my AA employees vote mostly Democrat, yet I know from talking about apolitical topics, we have far more in common than not. The third best thing about my career is the number of cases I’ve had in San Antonio and the Rio Grande Valley, starting in 1983. As a trial lawyer, you meet tons more people than in most other careers simply because every case has at least two clients and two lawyers. Multiply that by a couple thousand cases and 130 plus jury trials and you have a significant universe of people you’ve gotten to know more than merely in passing. Which is why my default, inside the extremes, is that we have far more in common than not. My cross-ethnic exposure lies more heavily in the Hispanic community than the AA community, but the number of AA friends, colleagues, acquaintances is not small. Ditto for Indian (from India) and Asian friend, colleagues and acquaintances.
    Voting is a binary choice. If I was going to focus on the 138 objectors, I’d look at their victory margins and the ethnic breakdown of the votes on both sides. That would be more informative than the LGM article IMO, but still it wouldn’t tell me much, particularly, as seems to be the case these days, the party bases pick the candidates and those tend to be hard right or hard left too often, and that leaves people who might want it otherwise picking the lesser of two evils.

  346. So, as LGM points out in the 4:08, the reps who object represent an older, whiter voter with less educational attainment than their new neighbor of color But the reps are busy trying to reverse the trend rather than tack to center because they don’t dare find themselves out of step with the national party when it is in a bloody minded mood.
    I have, more than once, demonstrated my mastery of math and statistics here at ObWi. Let’s just say that McKTex’s math resides in an alternate universe.
    I don’t think the LGM article proves the point. I agree there are some correlations, much more so at the extremes, between race/class and *outlook*. Voting patterns change over time–and will continue to change–and since we are a racially diverse country, there will be changes in racial voting patterns.
    But that was not my point. I have law partners and friends who vote Democrat. But, we have far, far more in common than not. I strongly suspect my AA employees vote mostly Democrat, yet I know from talking about apolitical topics, we have far more in common than not. The third best thing about my career is the number of cases I’ve had in San Antonio and the Rio Grande Valley, starting in 1983. As a trial lawyer, you meet tons more people than in most other careers simply because every case has at least two clients and two lawyers. Multiply that by a couple thousand cases and 130 plus jury trials and you have a significant universe of people you’ve gotten to know more than merely in passing. Which is why my default, inside the extremes, is that we have far more in common than not. My cross-ethnic exposure lies more heavily in the Hispanic community than the AA community, but the number of AA friends, colleagues, acquaintances is not small. Ditto for Indian (from India) and Asian friend, colleagues and acquaintances.
    Voting is a binary choice. If I was going to focus on the 138 objectors, I’d look at their victory margins and the ethnic breakdown of the votes on both sides. That would be more informative than the LGM article IMO, but still it wouldn’t tell me much, particularly, as seems to be the case these days, the party bases pick the candidates and those tend to be hard right or hard left too often, and that leaves people who might want it otherwise picking the lesser of two evils.

  347. Yup, if you are not down on your knees begging McKinney for forgiveness for not denouncing the crimes of Stalin all the time then you are an unrepentant hypocrite, and that is pretty much the end of the discussion as the demonstrable hypocrisy of “the left” is the only thing worth talking about. Sucks to be you, libs.
    I like to think of myself as an objective student of history, but others–perhaps less enlightened–are entitled to their own views.
    I was just trying to be snarky by implying that the everyday inhabitants of Congress didn’t like seeing low-class rioters, trespassers, vandals, etc. in their spaces. Only just high-class criminals like themselves.
    Blew right by me. Now I get it.

  348. Yup, if you are not down on your knees begging McKinney for forgiveness for not denouncing the crimes of Stalin all the time then you are an unrepentant hypocrite, and that is pretty much the end of the discussion as the demonstrable hypocrisy of “the left” is the only thing worth talking about. Sucks to be you, libs.
    I like to think of myself as an objective student of history, but others–perhaps less enlightened–are entitled to their own views.
    I was just trying to be snarky by implying that the everyday inhabitants of Congress didn’t like seeing low-class rioters, trespassers, vandals, etc. in their spaces. Only just high-class criminals like themselves.
    Blew right by me. Now I get it.

  349. Congress didn’t like seeing low-class rioters, trespassers, vandals, etc. in their spaces.
    Trump was also apparently disappointed by the low class demeanor of his rioting supporters.

  350. Congress didn’t like seeing low-class rioters, trespassers, vandals, etc. in their spaces.
    Trump was also apparently disappointed by the low class demeanor of his rioting supporters.

  351. Trump was also apparently disappointed by the low class demeanor of his rioting supporters.
    they let a little air out of his comfy bubble.

  352. Trump was also apparently disappointed by the low class demeanor of his rioting supporters.
    they let a little air out of his comfy bubble.

  353. I think it was on a recent podcast that someone said that, on visiting Austin, they were surprised to meet people who looked Mexican, but who dressed and talked Texian. Or, more broadly, American. Which, of course, is what they are. Growing numbers of people, if they think much about it at all, don’t see being Mexican or even being black as an identifying characteristic.
    And more than a few old money Texians look Mexican.

  354. I think it was on a recent podcast that someone said that, on visiting Austin, they were surprised to meet people who looked Mexican, but who dressed and talked Texian. Or, more broadly, American. Which, of course, is what they are. Growing numbers of people, if they think much about it at all, don’t see being Mexican or even being black as an identifying characteristic.
    And more than a few old money Texians look Mexican.

  355. I like to think of myself as an objective student of history, but others–perhaps less enlightened–are entitled to their own views.
    I wonder what these objective students of history will say about the difference in policing between the George Floyd protests and January 6th. My guess is that they won’t brush them aside as meaningless.

  356. I like to think of myself as an objective student of history, but others–perhaps less enlightened–are entitled to their own views.
    I wonder what these objective students of history will say about the difference in policing between the George Floyd protests and January 6th. My guess is that they won’t brush them aside as meaningless.

  363. And, from today’s NYT:
    Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the Republican leader, has told associates that he believes President Trump committed impeachable offenses and that he is pleased that Democrats are moving to impeach him, believing that it will make it easier to purge him from the party, according to people familiar with his thinking. The House is voting on Wednesday to formally charge Mr. Trump with inciting violence against the country.
    God, McConnell truly is a spineless piece of scum.

  364. And, from today’s NYT:
    Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the Republican leader, has told associates that he believes President Trump committed impeachable offenses and that he is pleased that Democrats are moving to impeach him, believing that it will make it easier to purge him from the party, according to people familiar with his thinking. The House is voting on Wednesday to formally charge Mr. Trump with inciting violence against the country.
    God, McConnell truly is a spineless piece of scum.

  367. I wonder what these objective students of history will say about the difference in policing between the George Floyd protests and January 6th. My guess is that they won’t brush them aside as meaningless.
    I’m not sure they are comparable, since the 1/6 activity occurred at one place and for a period measured in hours, so there is that. I suspect that if the insurrection had lasted days, the police response would have escalated significantly, depending on degree of resistance.
    Had the idiots actually shown up fully armed and put up a fight, we would have seen a pitched battle. Of course, they didn’t, which makes a lot of this discussion moot.
    At the beginning of any protest-turned-riot, the initiative lies with the rioters since they know what they are going to do before anyone else does, including the police.
    In retrospect, it is coming out that there was a lot of “chatter” on the far right that turns out to have been true. Does anyone know if that “chatter” was out of the ordinary? Enough so that a reasonable law enforcement response would have been to up-gun? If so, then there are some hard questions those who had the job of making the call will have to answer.
    As for the *objective student of history* formulation, I was speaking tongue-in-cheek.

  368. I wonder what these objective students of history will say about the difference in policing between the George Floyd protests and January 6th. My guess is that they won’t brush them aside as meaningless.
    I’m not sure they are comparable, since the 1/6 activity occurred at one place and for a period measured in hours, so there is that. I suspect that if the insurrection had lasted days, the police response would have escalated significantly, depending on degree of resistance.
    Had the idiots actually shown up fully armed and put up a fight, we would have seen a pitched battle. Of course, they didn’t, which makes a lot of this discussion moot.
    At the beginning of any protest-turned-riot, the initiative lies with the rioters since they know what they are going to do before anyone else does, including the police.
    In retrospect, it is coming out that there was a lot of “chatter” on the far right that turns out to have been true. Does anyone know if that “chatter” was out of the ordinary? Enough so that a reasonable law enforcement response would have been to up-gun? If so, then there are some hard questions those who had the job of making the call will have to answer.
    As for the *objective student of history* formulation, I was speaking tongue-in-cheek.

  369. God, McConnell truly is a spineless piece of scum.
    GFTNC, what would you have MM do, if not that or something similar? Am I missing something?

  370. God, McConnell truly is a spineless piece of scum.
    GFTNC, what would you have MM do, if not that or something similar? Am I missing something?

  375. McConnell did not acknowledge Biden’s win til December 16th. In the aftermath of the election, and during DJT’s whole presidency, he has been one of his main enablers, and has given legitimacy to him as he has done ever more appalling things (like for example the Ukraine call).
    DJT is an unspeakable piece of crooked, grifting sh*t (which, to your credit, you have always acknowledged), but McConnell has been all in for him out of despicable calculation, and cowardice. His stance of Merrick Garland and not confirming any of POTUS HRC’s SCOTUS nominations, which you recently dismissed as “political business as usual” was nothing of the kind. It was an unprecedented lowering of the bar of even vaguely acceptable behaviour, and any accusations from you (or anyone) of lefty or Dem hypocrisy will languish in well-deserved opprobrium compared to this corrupt scoundrel’s behaviour. And now, only after he is escorted limping from a coup attempt, he has “told associates” that ” is pleased that Democrats are moving to impeach him.” What is it cleek (or is it hsh) says? Profiles in courage.

  376. McConnell did not acknowledge Biden’s win til December 16th. In the aftermath of the election, and during DJT’s whole presidency, he has been one of his main enablers, and has given legitimacy to him as he has done ever more appalling things (like for example the Ukraine call).
    DJT is an unspeakable piece of crooked, grifting sh*t (which, to your credit, you have always acknowledged), but McConnell has been all in for him out of despicable calculation, and cowardice. His stance of Merrick Garland and not confirming any of POTUS HRC’s SCOTUS nominations, which you recently dismissed as “political business as usual” was nothing of the kind. It was an unprecedented lowering of the bar of even vaguely acceptable behaviour, and any accusations from you (or anyone) of lefty or Dem hypocrisy will languish in well-deserved opprobrium compared to this corrupt scoundrel’s behaviour. And now, only after he is escorted limping from a coup attempt, he has “told associates” that ” is pleased that Democrats are moving to impeach him.” What is it cleek (or is it hsh) says? Profiles in courage.

  379. McConnell reportedly said he was in favor of impeachment because it would make it easier for him to purge the Trumpists from the Republican Party. Let us all hope that
    a) he is correct and able to do that, and
    b) it rebounds on him and gets him booted out of office as a result. Chickens; roost.

  380. McConnell reportedly said he was in favor of impeachment because it would make it easier for him to purge the Trumpists from the Republican Party. Let us all hope that
    a) he is correct and able to do that, and
    b) it rebounds on him and gets him booted out of office as a result. Chickens; roost.

  381. Shorter McTex: blah blah Antifa
    Nuance!
    His stance of Merrick Garland and not confirming any of POTUS HRC’s SCOTUS nominations, which you recently dismissed as “political business as usual” was nothing of the kind. It was an unprecedented lowering of the bar of even vaguely acceptable behaviour, and any accusations from you (or anyone) of lefty or Dem hypocrisy will languish in well-deserved opprobrium compared to this corrupt scoundrel’s behaviour
    I realize he is reviled on the vocal left (to avoid the broad brush) and maybe he is, compared to his Dem counterparts, in a class by himself, but I’m pretty sure the vocal right would contest that. They all do shitty stuff when it’s in their interests as far as I am concerned. I thought MM should have used the Ukraine phone call to promote a DT departure, but that turned out to be me fantasizing.
    Oh, and Antifa!

  382. Shorter McTex: blah blah Antifa
    Nuance!
    His stance of Merrick Garland and not confirming any of POTUS HRC’s SCOTUS nominations, which you recently dismissed as “political business as usual” was nothing of the kind. It was an unprecedented lowering of the bar of even vaguely acceptable behaviour, and any accusations from you (or anyone) of lefty or Dem hypocrisy will languish in well-deserved opprobrium compared to this corrupt scoundrel’s behaviour
    I realize he is reviled on the vocal left (to avoid the broad brush) and maybe he is, compared to his Dem counterparts, in a class by himself, but I’m pretty sure the vocal right would contest that. They all do shitty stuff when it’s in their interests as far as I am concerned. I thought MM should have used the Ukraine phone call to promote a DT departure, but that turned out to be me fantasizing.
    Oh, and Antifa!

  383. Well it is quite possibly now best for Republicans to impeach Trump, if they are calculating their narrow political interest. Which is McConnell’s only real interest.
    On this one occasion, that happens to be in the interests of US democracy too, so I’m happy that the soulless ghoul has so calculated.
    The fact that Trump recklessly gambled with their lives probably come into it, too.

  384. Well it is quite possibly now best for Republicans to impeach Trump, if they are calculating their narrow political interest. Which is McConnell’s only real interest.
    On this one occasion, that happens to be in the interests of US democracy too, so I’m happy that the soulless ghoul has so calculated.
    The fact that Trump recklessly gambled with their lives probably come into it, too.

  385. Now that multiple GOP Reps are in favor in impeachment, it seems to me that the Unity caucus has no choice but to support it.

  386. Now that multiple GOP Reps are in favor in impeachment, it seems to me that the Unity caucus has no choice but to support it.

  387. McKinney, you need to focus your contempt on fascist Antifa like Mo Brooks. Don’t use such a broad brush.

  388. McKinney, you need to focus your contempt on fascist Antifa like Mo Brooks. Don’t use such a broad brush.

  389. I’m pretty sure the vocal right would contest that.
    It rather depends on which element of the “vocal right” you mean, and therefore whether their opinion deserves more than a nano-second’s consideration before being contemptuously binned.
    Nigel: the soulless ghoul! Excellent, and spookily appropriate.

  390. I’m pretty sure the vocal right would contest that.
    It rather depends on which element of the “vocal right” you mean, and therefore whether their opinion deserves more than a nano-second’s consideration before being contemptuously binned.
    Nigel: the soulless ghoul! Excellent, and spookily appropriate.

  391. By the way, and for the record, most of my friends and acquaintances would laugh at the idea of my being considered a representative of “the vocal left”, or of “the left” at all. This is a good illustration of the difference between the Overton Window in the US versus the one in Europe/the UK.

  392. By the way, and for the record, most of my friends and acquaintances would laugh at the idea of my being considered a representative of “the vocal left”, or of “the left” at all. This is a good illustration of the difference between the Overton Window in the US versus the one in Europe/the UK.

  393. As for the *objective student of history* formulation, I was speaking tongue-in-cheek.
    As any “objective” student of history is wont to do. But since we are on this topic, just when are you going to apologize for the Bourbons?

  394. As for the *objective student of history* formulation, I was speaking tongue-in-cheek.
    As any “objective” student of history is wont to do. But since we are on this topic, just when are you going to apologize for the Bourbons?

  397. A landspeed record, from offering McKtini’s for cleek to both sides do it. With a splash of ‘I have friends who are Democrats!’ Truely whiplash inducing. The ‘George Floyd protests and the attempted coup can’t be compared cause the former was bigger than the latter’ is true genius though. Like I said, if it were really a right wing coup, they would have been better organized. I’m sure that is what G. Gordon Liddy said when the plumbers got arrested.
    Some might suggest Marty was faster, but looking at the comments, I don’t think he actually moved from his ‘you call that a revolt? It was just a blip of overly exuberent yahoos that have nothing to do with me. How could it?’. It’s like Groucho spinning around and Harpo waiting for him and then going ‘ta-dah’.

  398. A landspeed record, from offering McKtini’s for cleek to both sides do it. With a splash of ‘I have friends who are Democrats!’ Truely whiplash inducing. The ‘George Floyd protests and the attempted coup can’t be compared cause the former was bigger than the latter’ is true genius though. Like I said, if it were really a right wing coup, they would have been better organized. I’m sure that is what G. Gordon Liddy said when the plumbers got arrested.
    Some might suggest Marty was faster, but looking at the comments, I don’t think he actually moved from his ‘you call that a revolt? It was just a blip of overly exuberent yahoos that have nothing to do with me. How could it?’. It’s like Groucho spinning around and Harpo waiting for him and then going ‘ta-dah’.

  401. Me in RL… pretty much just as political as online. I always have been political. I was 16 years old and living in Miami when the 1972 GOP Convention was held there – and I marched, I hung out with the VVAW, sat in on strategy meetings.
    99% of my friends and family are Democrats, with my BernieBro brother being on the blue-shift end and the rest of us more or less standard-issue liberal Democrats.
    I have one friend over on the righthand side of the spectrum, who would still be a Republican if it weren’t for the GOP. To his great annoyance, he has been voting the straight Democratic ticket for years simply because, ever since G W Bush, he sees the GOP as a clear and present danger to the country. (You can guess his opinion of Trump and Trumpism.)

  402. Me in RL… pretty much just as political as online. I always have been political. I was 16 years old and living in Miami when the 1972 GOP Convention was held there – and I marched, I hung out with the VVAW, sat in on strategy meetings.
    99% of my friends and family are Democrats, with my BernieBro brother being on the blue-shift end and the rest of us more or less standard-issue liberal Democrats.
    I have one friend over on the righthand side of the spectrum, who would still be a Republican if it weren’t for the GOP. To his great annoyance, he has been voting the straight Democratic ticket for years simply because, ever since G W Bush, he sees the GOP as a clear and present danger to the country. (You can guess his opinion of Trump and Trumpism.)

  403. Does anyone know if that “chatter” was out of the ordinary?
    I’d say the talk about putting two in Pelosi’s noggin might have attracted attention.
    Seriously, if you’re really asking in good faith, spin up Google and try this:
    internet chatter before capitol riot
    that should keep you busy for a while.
    Conservatives here, and everywhere, seem to be invested in minimizing the events of last week. Or, drawing an equivalence between them, and the BLM protests of last summer.
    The two are not equivalent. They are different in kind and intent. Both were instances of politically motivated violence, that’s pretty much all they have in common.
    The “losers” who “don’t have a life” include active and retired military and police. Also current and former public office holders. It includes people who demonstrated military discipline and training, and were using that in the actions they took.
    It involved firearms, tasers, pipe bombs and molotov cocktails, and zip restraints. It involved attackers seeking out specific members of Congressional leadership as well as the VPOTUS. And it was intended to usurp the peaceful transfer of power. That is why it occurred when and where it did.
    If the differences here are not apparent, then it’s hardly worth discussing. It’s like arguing with people who start from the position that COVID doesn’t exist. The level of effort required to even get to the most minimal consensus about the basic facts on the ground is too great to make it worthwhile.
    If it makes you feel better to think of all of it as just a bunch of losers who quickly got their asses whipped and then went to dinner, fine. Go your way and live your life.
    There is a significant number of people in this country who are fine with overthrowing the Constitution and the rule of law if it means they can get their way. That is the problem.
    Racism is a factor, but racism is ubiquitous, so whatever. Class is maybe a factor, but no small number of Trump supporters are more than well off, so that’s not really the heart of it.
    The issue is the very large number of Trump supporters who would be fine with overthrowing the rule of law if it meant their guy would stay in office. And that is compounded by the truly remarkable number of them who believe things that are plainly not true.
    And all of that is compounded by the willingness of many thousands of them to engage in organized, concerted acts of violence in support of all of that.
    That is a threat. It’s a threat to the continuation of this country as a constitutional republic.
    If you don’t see that after last week, you don’t want to see it, and there’s not one damned thing I’m able to say to change that. It’s on you. I’m happy to talk with you all about stuff, but that has to be the starting point. Otherwise it’s not worth the time spent.
    What I want to know is *what are you conservatives going to do about it*. That is my question.
    You want to talk about politics in the US, that is the question you need to address.
    If you have an answer, fine. If not, have a good night.

  404. Does anyone know if that “chatter” was out of the ordinary?
    I’d say the talk about putting two in Pelosi’s noggin might have attracted attention.
    Seriously, if you’re really asking in good faith, spin up Google and try this:
    internet chatter before capitol riot
    that should keep you busy for a while.
    Conservatives here, and everywhere, seem to be invested in minimizing the events of last week. Or, drawing an equivalence between them, and the BLM protests of last summer.
    The two are not equivalent. They are different in kind and intent. Both were instances of politically motivated violence, that’s pretty much all they have in common.
    The “losers” who “don’t have a life” include active and retired military and police. Also current and former public office holders. It includes people who demonstrated military discipline and training, and were using that in the actions they took.
    It involved firearms, tasers, pipe bombs and molotov cocktails, and zip restraints. It involved attackers seeking out specific members of Congressional leadership as well as the VPOTUS. And it was intended to usurp the peaceful transfer of power. That is why it occurred when and where it did.
    If the differences here are not apparent, then it’s hardly worth discussing. It’s like arguing with people who start from the position that COVID doesn’t exist. The level of effort required to even get to the most minimal consensus about the basic facts on the ground is too great to make it worthwhile.
    If it makes you feel better to think of all of it as just a bunch of losers who quickly got their asses whipped and then went to dinner, fine. Go your way and live your life.
    There is a significant number of people in this country who are fine with overthrowing the Constitution and the rule of law if it means they can get their way. That is the problem.
    Racism is a factor, but racism is ubiquitous, so whatever. Class is maybe a factor, but no small number of Trump supporters are more than well off, so that’s not really the heart of it.
    The issue is the very large number of Trump supporters who would be fine with overthrowing the rule of law if it meant their guy would stay in office. And that is compounded by the truly remarkable number of them who believe things that are plainly not true.
    And all of that is compounded by the willingness of many thousands of them to engage in organized, concerted acts of violence in support of all of that.
    That is a threat. It’s a threat to the continuation of this country as a constitutional republic.
    If you don’t see that after last week, you don’t want to see it, and there’s not one damned thing I’m able to say to change that. It’s on you. I’m happy to talk with you all about stuff, but that has to be the starting point. Otherwise it’s not worth the time spent.
    What I want to know is *what are you conservatives going to do about it*. That is my question.
    You want to talk about politics in the US, that is the question you need to address.
    If you have an answer, fine. If not, have a good night.

  405. I used to have a lot more rw friends than I do now. I was involved in a martial arts group for several years whose members associated with people across the country. Some of the wider training group were former military, some were current LEO, some of their former training partners were big name speakers at the NRA convention.
    About the time of the Ferguson protests I saw the whole group start sliding into alt-right territory, getting taken in by MRA talking points and believing that Obama was going to declare martial law and stuff like that. I kept quiet and kept training until they started to laugh about students being pepper sprayed at UC Davis and said that if students blocked access to a street and any antifa showed up they would ram them with a car… I stepped away quietly shortly thereafter.
    I’m not really surprised by anything that has happened. They have been rehearsing this in their heads since 2014 and just looking for a moment that matched the one already in their heads.
    What has really surprised me, though, is to watch my Christian homeschool alt-medicine family fall to that side as well in the last two years under the strain of trying to justify their support of the GOP. Suddenly the 40 year pro-lifers were excusing putting children in cages and screaming about bodily autonomy whenever someone mentioned masks or vaccines.
    Now I treat them as cult members.
    And if I argue for lenience, it’s because I’d like the cult members to rejoin the rest of us before the accelerationists get their way.

  406. I used to have a lot more rw friends than I do now. I was involved in a martial arts group for several years whose members associated with people across the country. Some of the wider training group were former military, some were current LEO, some of their former training partners were big name speakers at the NRA convention.
    About the time of the Ferguson protests I saw the whole group start sliding into alt-right territory, getting taken in by MRA talking points and believing that Obama was going to declare martial law and stuff like that. I kept quiet and kept training until they started to laugh about students being pepper sprayed at UC Davis and said that if students blocked access to a street and any antifa showed up they would ram them with a car… I stepped away quietly shortly thereafter.
    I’m not really surprised by anything that has happened. They have been rehearsing this in their heads since 2014 and just looking for a moment that matched the one already in their heads.
    What has really surprised me, though, is to watch my Christian homeschool alt-medicine family fall to that side as well in the last two years under the strain of trying to justify their support of the GOP. Suddenly the 40 year pro-lifers were excusing putting children in cages and screaming about bodily autonomy whenever someone mentioned masks or vaccines.
    Now I treat them as cult members.
    And if I argue for lenience, it’s because I’d like the cult members to rejoin the rest of us before the accelerationists get their way.

  409. From JDT’s link.

    Trump aides did three takes of the video and chose the most palatable option — despite some West Wing consternation that the president had called the violent protesters “very special.”

    Rather makes one wonder what the other two, less palatable, takes were like.

  410. From JDT’s link.

    Trump aides did three takes of the video and chose the most palatable option — despite some West Wing consternation that the president had called the violent protesters “very special.”

    Rather makes one wonder what the other two, less palatable, takes were like.

  411. So, yes to nuance.
    OK! Let’s try some…
    BLM deaths.
    extent of property damage
    Millions participated, and participated peacefully in protests that nudged us to seriously consider far reaching criminal justice and police reform.
    So yes, nuance and perspective. Objective students need to have these attributes.

  412. So, yes to nuance.
    OK! Let’s try some…
    BLM deaths.
    extent of property damage
    Millions participated, and participated peacefully in protests that nudged us to seriously consider far reaching criminal justice and police reform.
    So yes, nuance and perspective. Objective students need to have these attributes.

  415. It’s also worth noting that the BLM protests were in response to a cop kneeling on a man’s neck for 8 minutes, while he begged for relief, until he died. And any discussion of it has to account for the treatment black people receive at the hands of police and the criminal justice system generally.
    The Capitol riot was in response to losing an election. And appears to have included a planned effort to capture and possibly harm or kill members of Congress.
    Can we please get freaking real about this.

  416. It’s also worth noting that the BLM protests were in response to a cop kneeling on a man’s neck for 8 minutes, while he begged for relief, until he died. And any discussion of it has to account for the treatment black people receive at the hands of police and the criminal justice system generally.
    The Capitol riot was in response to losing an election. And appears to have included a planned effort to capture and possibly harm or kill members of Congress.
    Can we please get freaking real about this.

  419. Perhaps my snark about class was off the mark. In any case, their behavior was low class.
    “They were business owners, CEOs, state legislators, police officers, active and retired service members, real-estate brokers, stay-at-home dads, and, I assume, some Proud Boys.”
    The Capitol Rioters Weren’t ‘Low Class’: The business owners, real-estate brokers, and service members who rioted acted not out of economic desperation, but out of their belief in their inviolable right to rule.

  420. Perhaps my snark about class was off the mark. In any case, their behavior was low class.
    “They were business owners, CEOs, state legislators, police officers, active and retired service members, real-estate brokers, stay-at-home dads, and, I assume, some Proud Boys.”
    The Capitol Rioters Weren’t ‘Low Class’: The business owners, real-estate brokers, and service members who rioted acted not out of economic desperation, but out of their belief in their inviolable right to rule.

  421. What I want to know is *what are you conservatives going to do about it*. That is my question.
    I think you already answered it at the start of your comment, russell.
    I hope I’m wrong, but if you’re expecting acknowledgment of the massive problem of what looks from the outside like incipient fascism, then I think you’ll mostly be disappointed.
    Assuming the Senate votes to convict, it will be interesting to see whether Frum’s prediction “when this is all over, no one will admit to ever having supported it” (July 2019) holds true, or whether the Republican party splits between those wanting to quietly disappear the memory, and those wanting more of the same but better organised.

  422. What I want to know is *what are you conservatives going to do about it*. That is my question.
    I think you already answered it at the start of your comment, russell.
    I hope I’m wrong, but if you’re expecting acknowledgment of the massive problem of what looks from the outside like incipient fascism, then I think you’ll mostly be disappointed.
    Assuming the Senate votes to convict, it will be interesting to see whether Frum’s prediction “when this is all over, no one will admit to ever having supported it” (July 2019) holds true, or whether the Republican party splits between those wanting to quietly disappear the memory, and those wanting more of the same but better organised.

  423. “It involved firearms, tasers, pipe bombs and molotov cocktails, and zip restraints. It involved attackers seeking out specific members of Congressional leadership as well as the VPOTUS. And it was intended to usurp the peaceful transfer of power. That is why it occurred when and where it did.
    If the differences here are not apparent, then it’s hardly worth discussing. ”
    This has become a pretty standard line. Essentially, “If you don’t agree with me it is hardly worth discussing”.
    You start by saying they are both politically motivated violence and then, in a popular phrase, hand wave that away. The riots included molotov cocktails, destroying both public and private property and guns.
    The target was different but people were injured.
    The next comment says that you have to take into account the thing people were reacting to in the riots, but of course the thing people were reacting to in DC has been thoroughly disproved so you shouldn’t take that into account.
    There is always an excuse for left wing violence.
    I haven’t seen anyone here not denounce the attack on the Capitol, me most of all. But we didn’t barely avoid becoming a dictatorship because we were “very lucky”.
    We avoided becoming a dictatorship because we have a stable democracy that can withstand a few hundred rioters, because we have a tiered policing system. That is more than capable of dealing with it and because in any worst case scenario we have 50 states that would temporarily appoint legislators to complete the peoples work.
    Jesus I can’t wait until the 20th.

  424. “It involved firearms, tasers, pipe bombs and molotov cocktails, and zip restraints. It involved attackers seeking out specific members of Congressional leadership as well as the VPOTUS. And it was intended to usurp the peaceful transfer of power. That is why it occurred when and where it did.
    If the differences here are not apparent, then it’s hardly worth discussing. ”
    This has become a pretty standard line. Essentially, “If you don’t agree with me it is hardly worth discussing”.
    You start by saying they are both politically motivated violence and then, in a popular phrase, hand wave that away. The riots included molotov cocktails, destroying both public and private property and guns.
    The target was different but people were injured.
    The next comment says that you have to take into account the thing people were reacting to in the riots, but of course the thing people were reacting to in DC has been thoroughly disproved so you shouldn’t take that into account.
    There is always an excuse for left wing violence.
    I haven’t seen anyone here not denounce the attack on the Capitol, me most of all. But we didn’t barely avoid becoming a dictatorship because we were “very lucky”.
    We avoided becoming a dictatorship because we have a stable democracy that can withstand a few hundred rioters, because we have a tiered policing system. That is more than capable of dealing with it and because in any worst case scenario we have 50 states that would temporarily appoint legislators to complete the peoples work.
    Jesus I can’t wait until the 20th.

  425. I haven’t seen anyone here not denounce the attack on the Capitol
    I didn’t seen anyone here not denounce looting and arson by rioters opposed to police killings either.
    I have seen Marty say that Biden is “not my president”, something he did not say when Trump was elected. So he might well reflect on how his president become a traitor.
    My opinion is that our approach to protesters should not depend on our view of the justice of their cause. In a democracy, peaceful protest should be allowed, and policed as gently as possible. Violent protest should be disallowed, and policed firmly. Enablers of violent protest should be excluded from all positions of authority. And lawbreakers like Trump, however wealthy or powerful they may be, should go to jail.

  426. I haven’t seen anyone here not denounce the attack on the Capitol
    I didn’t seen anyone here not denounce looting and arson by rioters opposed to police killings either.
    I have seen Marty say that Biden is “not my president”, something he did not say when Trump was elected. So he might well reflect on how his president become a traitor.
    My opinion is that our approach to protesters should not depend on our view of the justice of their cause. In a democracy, peaceful protest should be allowed, and policed as gently as possible. Violent protest should be disallowed, and policed firmly. Enablers of violent protest should be excluded from all positions of authority. And lawbreakers like Trump, however wealthy or powerful they may be, should go to jail.

  427. Essentially, “If you don’t agree with me it is hardly worth discussing”.
    Wrong.
    If there is no common recognition of plain fact, then it’s hardly worth discussing.
    “A few hundred rioters”, for example. Speaking of waving away.
    Luck is when a physical attack and possible kidnap and/or assassination of Senate leadership is avoided by the wit and self-sacrifice of a single cop.
    What we avoided was not dictatorship but chaos. What would have come out of that is anybody’s guess.
    In any case, by my lights you’re the king of waving it away. And so I’m kind of done discussing it with you. We don’t “disagree”, as far as I can tell you are immune to recognizing things you don’t wanna hear. I don’t have time for it, so over and out, from me.
    I’m sure somebody else will be happy to argue with you about it.

  428. Essentially, “If you don’t agree with me it is hardly worth discussing”.
    Wrong.
    If there is no common recognition of plain fact, then it’s hardly worth discussing.
    “A few hundred rioters”, for example. Speaking of waving away.
    Luck is when a physical attack and possible kidnap and/or assassination of Senate leadership is avoided by the wit and self-sacrifice of a single cop.
    What we avoided was not dictatorship but chaos. What would have come out of that is anybody’s guess.
    In any case, by my lights you’re the king of waving it away. And so I’m kind of done discussing it with you. We don’t “disagree”, as far as I can tell you are immune to recognizing things you don’t wanna hear. I don’t have time for it, so over and out, from me.
    I’m sure somebody else will be happy to argue with you about it.

  429. Just in case you were keeping track, here’s Marty from this post
    https://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2020/06/back-to-the-salt-mines/comments/page/3/#comments

    Where have you been russell? Wheres the burned and looted store from a right wing riot, people running down the street throwing things at cops?
    Guns intimidate, sure they should leave them at home. But ain’t none of them burned a store. Or bricked a cop. Or destroyed a statue. Or defaced public property. Or thrown a molotov cocktail.
    One person ran over someone with their car, got arrested, in jail. Good for the cops that arrested him, hell let’s defund them.
    It’s just simple, your side is a revolution, their side is treason. Your side should be understood, their side should be arrested.
    My side just watched and shakes our head. WTF.
    Posted by: Marty | June 23, 2020 at 02:12 PM
    Let the contortions begin!!

  430. Just in case you were keeping track, here’s Marty from this post
    https://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2020/06/back-to-the-salt-mines/comments/page/3/#comments

    Where have you been russell? Wheres the burned and looted store from a right wing riot, people running down the street throwing things at cops?
    Guns intimidate, sure they should leave them at home. But ain’t none of them burned a store. Or bricked a cop. Or destroyed a statue. Or defaced public property. Or thrown a molotov cocktail.
    One person ran over someone with their car, got arrested, in jail. Good for the cops that arrested him, hell let’s defund them.
    It’s just simple, your side is a revolution, their side is treason. Your side should be understood, their side should be arrested.
    My side just watched and shakes our head. WTF.
    Posted by: Marty | June 23, 2020 at 02:12 PM
    Let the contortions begin!!

  437. today’s favorite wingnut chewtoy is “CHAZ“, the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone. where protestors blocked off a few blocks in Seattle, demanding better founding for black neighborhoods.
    this is just like trying to overturn a Presidential election because … #handwaving

  438. today’s favorite wingnut chewtoy is “CHAZ“, the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone. where protestors blocked off a few blocks in Seattle, demanding better founding for black neighborhoods.
    this is just like trying to overturn a Presidential election because … #handwaving

  439. Marty might be the King of Waving It Away, but he’s also the Duke of Missing the Point (on purpose?).
    The point of BLM was not to riot, loot, and destroy things (though I personally don’t mind the destruction of Confederate monuments). Yes, some people did riot, loot, and destroy things, and almost everyone here condemned that repeatedly to be completely clear about the distinction between peaceful protests and those other things.
    As bobbyp pointed out earlier, millions of people protested racial injustice this year over the course of months. This is something McKinney seems to find fault with, that these things went on for so long. The way I see it, it only took a short time for the a**holes in DC to go sideways, which actually makes them worse. Millions of people protested over months, and the number of people who did anything criminal was a tiny percentage of those millions, and some of those people were “counter protesters” (boogaloo movement, anyone?).
    Also, too, the only Nazis at the BLM protests were there to f**k with the protesters. If Nazis are part of your “protest,” you might have to stop and think why that is.

  440. Marty might be the King of Waving It Away, but he’s also the Duke of Missing the Point (on purpose?).
    The point of BLM was not to riot, loot, and destroy things (though I personally don’t mind the destruction of Confederate monuments). Yes, some people did riot, loot, and destroy things, and almost everyone here condemned that repeatedly to be completely clear about the distinction between peaceful protests and those other things.
    As bobbyp pointed out earlier, millions of people protested racial injustice this year over the course of months. This is something McKinney seems to find fault with, that these things went on for so long. The way I see it, it only took a short time for the a**holes in DC to go sideways, which actually makes them worse. Millions of people protested over months, and the number of people who did anything criminal was a tiny percentage of those millions, and some of those people were “counter protesters” (boogaloo movement, anyone?).
    Also, too, the only Nazis at the BLM protests were there to f**k with the protesters. If Nazis are part of your “protest,” you might have to stop and think why that is.

  443. The FBI and U.S. Attorney in Washington D.C. say that hundreds of people will likely be charged in connection with the seige on Capitol Hill. Today FBI assistant director Steven D’Antuono and acting U.S. Attorney Michael Sherwin briefed the media. It’s the first news conference from a law enforcement agency since the siege on January 6th. The men said 170 cases are already open, with 70 suspects charged, and the Justice Department expects that number will grow into the hundreds. D’Antuono had this warning, “Even if you’ve left DC, agents from our local field offices will be knocking on your door if we found out that you were part of the criminal activity at the Capitol.” The AP writes:

    The early misdemeanor charges against at least some of the rioters are effectively placeholder counts, but more serious counts — including sedition and conspiracy — are expected in violence that resulted in the deaths of five people, including a Capitol Police officer.

    and the apologist tears will flow.

  444. The FBI and U.S. Attorney in Washington D.C. say that hundreds of people will likely be charged in connection with the seige on Capitol Hill. Today FBI assistant director Steven D’Antuono and acting U.S. Attorney Michael Sherwin briefed the media. It’s the first news conference from a law enforcement agency since the siege on January 6th. The men said 170 cases are already open, with 70 suspects charged, and the Justice Department expects that number will grow into the hundreds. D’Antuono had this warning, “Even if you’ve left DC, agents from our local field offices will be knocking on your door if we found out that you were part of the criminal activity at the Capitol.” The AP writes:

    The early misdemeanor charges against at least some of the rioters are effectively placeholder counts, but more serious counts — including sedition and conspiracy — are expected in violence that resulted in the deaths of five people, including a Capitol Police officer.

    and the apologist tears will flow.

  447. Seriously, if you’re really asking in good faith, spin up Google and try this:
    You know, I don’t recall questioning your good faith. I really don’t. So I’m not sure why this is useful. Seems more like at bit of ad hominem. I would like to know if anyone knows whether, in the run up to the riot there was a spike in far right chatter. I’m sensing there was. The more I read, the more it appears this event, and perhaps more like it, was not simply a protest getting out of control.
    Also, I noted above that the 1/6 riot was different in kind from the George Floyd riots because it was specifically targeted at upsetting or setting aside an election. So, no need to keep making that point.
    If “no life” bothers you, then replace with “empty lives”, “meaningless lives”, “lives untethered to reality and in search of something to give their pitiful existence meaning.” I really don’t care nor do I think fussing over terms materially adds to the discussion.
    With that said, I’m going to pick up with Nous’ comments regarding his family sliding into some kind of right wing bubble post-Ferguson. Ferguson is an excellent foil for me to make my point.
    Outside the lefty bubble, everyone who can read and who read the Obama Justice Department’s investigation of the Michael Brown shooting knows that it was completely justifiable homicide. Which is why no charges were brought. Yet, BLM–founded by Marxists who gladly lie in aid of their cause–went with the “Hands Up, Don’t Shoot” lie. Even today, most on the visible left (HSH, is this ok?) treat Brown’s shooting as something nefarious.
    So, BLM, founded on a lie and the ensuing riots were also founded on a lie. Why is this relevant and instructive?
    Because, as I posed above, suppose the election had actually been stolen? Clearly it was not, but that doesn’t mean people did not believe the opposite. Of course, they are idiots for believing in something that is demonstrably false. But, that being true, i.e. that the stolen election thing is total BS and people who believe otherwise are delusional or what have you, then the same must also be said for those who adhere to the Ferguson riots myth(s).
    Moving on to the George Floyd riots and the issue of “waiving away”. The property damage figure BP cited to is “paid insurance claims.” Does anyone know what this means? I do. It means that if you had a business and if your agent got you “civil insurrection” coverage on your property policy (it usually has a “sub limit” that is way less that the total insured value), and if your property was burned down or otherwise destroyed, you get paid subject to deductibles, depreciation and repairs are limited to “like kind and quality” and, just to round out the picture, unless your agent persuaded you to purchase “code upgrade” coverage, you do not get paid for repairs that must meet current code requirements that we not in place at the time of original construction. This comes up every time on buildings more than 20 years old.
    Your insurance is limited and even if you have “business interruption” coverage, it is almost always capped at 90 days of income less expenses.
    Your insurance does not cover all of your other tangible and intangible losses, e.g. the loss of your business, your livelihood, the reason you get up in the morning.
    So, talk about waiving away? Act as if the damage was capped at what insurance companies paid out. If 2 Billion was paid out, the likely number is multiples of that for lost future income, uninsured and underinsured property and the impossibility of rebuilding in the same location *not to mention* the depreciation in property values occasioned by being in a “riot zone.”
    I will try to link to an article that came out last week documenting, IIRC, 28 instances of visible lefties excusing, minimizing, justifying, etc the George Floyd riots. As is always the case, regardless of compass direction, punditry has its limits and overreaching is part of the game. But even with that caveat, it is documented, forex, that Kamala Harris and others in the Biden inner circle were raising bail money for rioters who were arrested.
    Burning down your own neighborhood or someone else’s neighborhood really doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to a lot of people who, in fact, are not evil. All you’re doing is hurting innocent people. Comprehending this doesn’t seem like that much of a reach.
    So, when Chris Cuomo, Kamala Harris and plenty of others soft pedal the kind of widespread wanton destruction–that’s what it was and acting like it wasn’t is a part of the visible left’s disconnect with the rest of us–we saw after George Floyd was killed, a fair question is: can we trust those people to protect us if a riot comes to our neighborhood?
    When a lot of those people are also screaming “Defund the police!”, the answer to the question seems obvious. Either the visible left takes ownership of its own skewed issues when it comes to rioting, or it loses all credibility when lecturing conservatives on how they ought to think.
    And anyone who thinks I’m waiving away or minimizing or what have you either isn’t reading very carefully or is letting their own issues get in the way.
    If, to pick up in Nigel’s reference to incipient fascism, the far right wingers actually do organize and rebel, I will politically support the harshest repression necessary to bring it to an end, and that includes shooting back from my second story window.
    I’ve called out my own. Now you do it.

  448. Seriously, if you’re really asking in good faith, spin up Google and try this:
    You know, I don’t recall questioning your good faith. I really don’t. So I’m not sure why this is useful. Seems more like at bit of ad hominem. I would like to know if anyone knows whether, in the run up to the riot there was a spike in far right chatter. I’m sensing there was. The more I read, the more it appears this event, and perhaps more like it, was not simply a protest getting out of control.
    Also, I noted above that the 1/6 riot was different in kind from the George Floyd riots because it was specifically targeted at upsetting or setting aside an election. So, no need to keep making that point.
    If “no life” bothers you, then replace with “empty lives”, “meaningless lives”, “lives untethered to reality and in search of something to give their pitiful existence meaning.” I really don’t care nor do I think fussing over terms materially adds to the discussion.
    With that said, I’m going to pick up with Nous’ comments regarding his family sliding into some kind of right wing bubble post-Ferguson. Ferguson is an excellent foil for me to make my point.
    Outside the lefty bubble, everyone who can read and who read the Obama Justice Department’s investigation of the Michael Brown shooting knows that it was completely justifiable homicide. Which is why no charges were brought. Yet, BLM–founded by Marxists who gladly lie in aid of their cause–went with the “Hands Up, Don’t Shoot” lie. Even today, most on the visible left (HSH, is this ok?) treat Brown’s shooting as something nefarious.
    So, BLM, founded on a lie and the ensuing riots were also founded on a lie. Why is this relevant and instructive?
    Because, as I posed above, suppose the election had actually been stolen? Clearly it was not, but that doesn’t mean people did not believe the opposite. Of course, they are idiots for believing in something that is demonstrably false. But, that being true, i.e. that the stolen election thing is total BS and people who believe otherwise are delusional or what have you, then the same must also be said for those who adhere to the Ferguson riots myth(s).
    Moving on to the George Floyd riots and the issue of “waiving away”. The property damage figure BP cited to is “paid insurance claims.” Does anyone know what this means? I do. It means that if you had a business and if your agent got you “civil insurrection” coverage on your property policy (it usually has a “sub limit” that is way less that the total insured value), and if your property was burned down or otherwise destroyed, you get paid subject to deductibles, depreciation and repairs are limited to “like kind and quality” and, just to round out the picture, unless your agent persuaded you to purchase “code upgrade” coverage, you do not get paid for repairs that must meet current code requirements that we not in place at the time of original construction. This comes up every time on buildings more than 20 years old.
    Your insurance is limited and even if you have “business interruption” coverage, it is almost always capped at 90 days of income less expenses.
    Your insurance does not cover all of your other tangible and intangible losses, e.g. the loss of your business, your livelihood, the reason you get up in the morning.
    So, talk about waiving away? Act as if the damage was capped at what insurance companies paid out. If 2 Billion was paid out, the likely number is multiples of that for lost future income, uninsured and underinsured property and the impossibility of rebuilding in the same location *not to mention* the depreciation in property values occasioned by being in a “riot zone.”
    I will try to link to an article that came out last week documenting, IIRC, 28 instances of visible lefties excusing, minimizing, justifying, etc the George Floyd riots. As is always the case, regardless of compass direction, punditry has its limits and overreaching is part of the game. But even with that caveat, it is documented, forex, that Kamala Harris and others in the Biden inner circle were raising bail money for rioters who were arrested.
    Burning down your own neighborhood or someone else’s neighborhood really doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to a lot of people who, in fact, are not evil. All you’re doing is hurting innocent people. Comprehending this doesn’t seem like that much of a reach.
    So, when Chris Cuomo, Kamala Harris and plenty of others soft pedal the kind of widespread wanton destruction–that’s what it was and acting like it wasn’t is a part of the visible left’s disconnect with the rest of us–we saw after George Floyd was killed, a fair question is: can we trust those people to protect us if a riot comes to our neighborhood?
    When a lot of those people are also screaming “Defund the police!”, the answer to the question seems obvious. Either the visible left takes ownership of its own skewed issues when it comes to rioting, or it loses all credibility when lecturing conservatives on how they ought to think.
    And anyone who thinks I’m waiving away or minimizing or what have you either isn’t reading very carefully or is letting their own issues get in the way.
    If, to pick up in Nigel’s reference to incipient fascism, the far right wingers actually do organize and rebel, I will politically support the harshest repression necessary to bring it to an end, and that includes shooting back from my second story window.
    I’ve called out my own. Now you do it.

  449. McKinney, was everyone who was arrested during the protests actually a rioter? Do you think it’s possible that overly aggressive policing swept up anyone unjustly for arrest?
    You keep referring to the “George Floyd riots.” I’m sure you realize that any sufficiently large event that disrupts the general order will attract people who want to cause various forms of trouble, whether or not they give a rat’s hindquarters about the event’s cause. I’m sure some wanted to break and burn stuff specifically because they were angry about racial injustice, just as I am sure some simply took the opportunity to break and burn stuff for the fun of it, just as looters took the opportunity to steal stuff.
    Are the boogoloo bois who shot police officers in California and shot at the police headquarters in Minneapolis “George Floyd rioters”?

  450. McKinney, was everyone who was arrested during the protests actually a rioter? Do you think it’s possible that overly aggressive policing swept up anyone unjustly for arrest?
    You keep referring to the “George Floyd riots.” I’m sure you realize that any sufficiently large event that disrupts the general order will attract people who want to cause various forms of trouble, whether or not they give a rat’s hindquarters about the event’s cause. I’m sure some wanted to break and burn stuff specifically because they were angry about racial injustice, just as I am sure some simply took the opportunity to break and burn stuff for the fun of it, just as looters took the opportunity to steal stuff.
    Are the boogoloo bois who shot police officers in California and shot at the police headquarters in Minneapolis “George Floyd rioters”?

  451. as soon as the President calls for overthrowing the results of his own failed re-election bid in the name of George Floyd, George Floyd will have a place in this discussion.

  452. as soon as the President calls for overthrowing the results of his own failed re-election bid in the name of George Floyd, George Floyd will have a place in this discussion.

  453. You know right away that when that old chestnut about “burning down their own neighborhoods” is trotted out that the conversation is pretty much over. It’s like the Kerner Report never existed.

  454. You know right away that when that old chestnut about “burning down their own neighborhoods” is trotted out that the conversation is pretty much over. It’s like the Kerner Report never existed.

  455. You know, I don’t recall questioning your good faith. I really don’t. So I’m not sure why this is useful. Seems more like at bit of ad hominem.
    A fair point. My comment was unfair, and my apologies.
    Sorry about that McK.
    A couple of points, briefly.
    BLM actually predates Ferguson and Michael Brown. If I’m not mistaken, it began showing up as a hash tag following Zimmerman’s aquittal.
    The situation in Ferguson, specifically, involves factors above and beyond the killing of Brown. Notably the overall relationship of the police to the community, and especially the para-military response to early protests. There was also the utterly callous treatment of Brown’s body after his killing, and the… unusual choice of witnesses during the grand jury.
    The riots of last summer were profoundly disturbing. The relationship of the people involved in actual rioting and violence to people who were there for BLM, specifically, is not so direct.
    There are groups on ‘the left’ who actually are on the left – anti-capitalist black bloc anarchists and similar – and some of them are violent, mostly in form of property destruction as a political statement. They tend to show up at pretty much any and every public demonstration. They’ve been at almost every public demonstration I’ve participated in over the last 10 or 20 years, and they’re basically just there to hitch a ride on the larger event and, in general, make trouble.
    I don’t support them, in fact I wish they’d grow up and go the hell away. They do nothing useful or constructive. I think the number of people who do support them is vanishingly small. The number of people who support them is, basically, them.
    And, there are people who were there for BLM who engaged in violence, because they were just freaking pissed off.
    And there are also a lot of people who went to the BLM events because it seemed like a big carnival and just fucking rioted and looted.
    I don’t support any of that. People shouldn’t destroy other people’s stuff. Period.
    Something like 15 to 25 *million* people participated in BLM events over the past year. All kinds of people, from pretty much any and every political, social and economic background.
    BLM is overwhelmingly non-violent, as a ‘movement’. I put that in quotes because it has no particular command structure, it’s just people who want cops to stop shooting black people so often. My church has a BLM banner out front, I doubt anybody in my community has ever met or spoken with an ‘official’ member of a BLM organization.
    I’m not saying any of this to excuse violent behavior, I’m saying it to provide context, so that when we discuss the events of the last year, we’re discussing them accurately and with some knowledge.
    ‘Defund the police’ is, IMO, just dumb. There is a useful point being made there, by some people, but the choice of language just pisses everybody off without accomplishing anything useful.
    All my opinion.

  456. You know, I don’t recall questioning your good faith. I really don’t. So I’m not sure why this is useful. Seems more like at bit of ad hominem.
    A fair point. My comment was unfair, and my apologies.
    Sorry about that McK.
    A couple of points, briefly.
    BLM actually predates Ferguson and Michael Brown. If I’m not mistaken, it began showing up as a hash tag following Zimmerman’s aquittal.
    The situation in Ferguson, specifically, involves factors above and beyond the killing of Brown. Notably the overall relationship of the police to the community, and especially the para-military response to early protests. There was also the utterly callous treatment of Brown’s body after his killing, and the… unusual choice of witnesses during the grand jury.
    The riots of last summer were profoundly disturbing. The relationship of the people involved in actual rioting and violence to people who were there for BLM, specifically, is not so direct.
    There are groups on ‘the left’ who actually are on the left – anti-capitalist black bloc anarchists and similar – and some of them are violent, mostly in form of property destruction as a political statement. They tend to show up at pretty much any and every public demonstration. They’ve been at almost every public demonstration I’ve participated in over the last 10 or 20 years, and they’re basically just there to hitch a ride on the larger event and, in general, make trouble.
    I don’t support them, in fact I wish they’d grow up and go the hell away. They do nothing useful or constructive. I think the number of people who do support them is vanishingly small. The number of people who support them is, basically, them.
    And, there are people who were there for BLM who engaged in violence, because they were just freaking pissed off.
    And there are also a lot of people who went to the BLM events because it seemed like a big carnival and just fucking rioted and looted.
    I don’t support any of that. People shouldn’t destroy other people’s stuff. Period.
    Something like 15 to 25 *million* people participated in BLM events over the past year. All kinds of people, from pretty much any and every political, social and economic background.
    BLM is overwhelmingly non-violent, as a ‘movement’. I put that in quotes because it has no particular command structure, it’s just people who want cops to stop shooting black people so often. My church has a BLM banner out front, I doubt anybody in my community has ever met or spoken with an ‘official’ member of a BLM organization.
    I’m not saying any of this to excuse violent behavior, I’m saying it to provide context, so that when we discuss the events of the last year, we’re discussing them accurately and with some knowledge.
    ‘Defund the police’ is, IMO, just dumb. There is a useful point being made there, by some people, but the choice of language just pisses everybody off without accomplishing anything useful.
    All my opinion.

  459. Speaking of hitching a ride, I’ll hitch a ride on russell’s 10:54 AM. I agree with every word of it.

  460. Speaking of hitching a ride, I’ll hitch a ride on russell’s 10:54 AM. I agree with every word of it.

  461. BLM actually predates Ferguson and Michael Brown. If I’m not mistaken, it began showing up as a hash tag following Zimmerman’s aquittal.
    True. Also the three black women activists credited with its founding are not “Marxists” (I liked that capital M, nice touch!).
    Regardless if the Michael Brown incident was “a lie” the municipal and institution oppression of the black community in Ferguson, Mo., was manifestly not a lie. The claim that the recent presidential election was “stolen” is also a lie…the oppression of the white community…well, um, not so much.
    There is a big difference, and I for one, don’t see much need for “the left” to apologize for whatever bee is in McKinney’s bonnet.
    And as brought to his attention repeatedly, what do the BLM protests have to do with the issue at hand?

  462. BLM actually predates Ferguson and Michael Brown. If I’m not mistaken, it began showing up as a hash tag following Zimmerman’s aquittal.
    True. Also the three black women activists credited with its founding are not “Marxists” (I liked that capital M, nice touch!).
    Regardless if the Michael Brown incident was “a lie” the municipal and institution oppression of the black community in Ferguson, Mo., was manifestly not a lie. The claim that the recent presidential election was “stolen” is also a lie…the oppression of the white community…well, um, not so much.
    There is a big difference, and I for one, don’t see much need for “the left” to apologize for whatever bee is in McKinney’s bonnet.
    And as brought to his attention repeatedly, what do the BLM protests have to do with the issue at hand?

  463. Sorry about that McK.
    De nada. It’s not like we are discussing a 37 vs 39.6 marginal tax rate. The topic at hand has everyone feeling a little off.
    I’m going to put away my keyboard for a while and try to pay more attention to what’s going on. My closing comment is this: heads have been exploding left and right since 2000. Maybe even before, but that’s kind of where I put it without having done an exhaustive analysis. The vast majority of the noise has been, IMO, driven by the 24 hour news cycle where the dueling sides go from “crisis” to “crisis”, and much like the little boy who cried wolf, there is a lot less “there” there. In that vein, I’ve been hearing about incipient far right revolution or terrorism for years, particularly since 2016. To me it’s seemed overblown and it seemed that way to me right up until last Wednesday.
    Now, people who normally don’t have right wing extremism on auto text are raising some very disturbing questions. If I didn’t mention that my crystal ball is imperfect, I will reiterate that point: I frequently get the specifics wrong when forecasting discrete events. If the RW bomb throwers rise up on 1/20, whatever body count they sustain is fine with me. If this all fizzles out and last Wednesday was their best shot, even better. Plan for the worst and hope for the best. And, go ahead and let the police wear their helmets and Kevlar. Let them have bullet proof anti-riot vehicles. It looks menacing and it is menacing. It’s supposed to be.
    DT has taken on a lot of water since last Wednesday. That is all to the good for principled conservatism.
    I’m probably out for a while. I regret that. The exchange has been, for me at least, as pleasant as a topic like this can be and very informative. I’ve got a lot to think about.
    Thanks all.

  464. Sorry about that McK.
    De nada. It’s not like we are discussing a 37 vs 39.6 marginal tax rate. The topic at hand has everyone feeling a little off.
    I’m going to put away my keyboard for a while and try to pay more attention to what’s going on. My closing comment is this: heads have been exploding left and right since 2000. Maybe even before, but that’s kind of where I put it without having done an exhaustive analysis. The vast majority of the noise has been, IMO, driven by the 24 hour news cycle where the dueling sides go from “crisis” to “crisis”, and much like the little boy who cried wolf, there is a lot less “there” there. In that vein, I’ve been hearing about incipient far right revolution or terrorism for years, particularly since 2016. To me it’s seemed overblown and it seemed that way to me right up until last Wednesday.
    Now, people who normally don’t have right wing extremism on auto text are raising some very disturbing questions. If I didn’t mention that my crystal ball is imperfect, I will reiterate that point: I frequently get the specifics wrong when forecasting discrete events. If the RW bomb throwers rise up on 1/20, whatever body count they sustain is fine with me. If this all fizzles out and last Wednesday was their best shot, even better. Plan for the worst and hope for the best. And, go ahead and let the police wear their helmets and Kevlar. Let them have bullet proof anti-riot vehicles. It looks menacing and it is menacing. It’s supposed to be.
    DT has taken on a lot of water since last Wednesday. That is all to the good for principled conservatism.
    I’m probably out for a while. I regret that. The exchange has been, for me at least, as pleasant as a topic like this can be and very informative. I’ve got a lot to think about.
    Thanks all.

  467. Thanks all.
    Good talking with you McK. See you on the flipside!!
    whatabout accomplished.
    “why is this different than that?” seems like a not-unreasonable question, to me. So, sometimes “whatabout” can be constructive. It depends on whether the intent is to understand, or deflect.
    All I ask is that people actually be open to an answer. Or at least a discussion of the facts.

  468. Thanks all.
    Good talking with you McK. See you on the flipside!!
    whatabout accomplished.
    “why is this different than that?” seems like a not-unreasonable question, to me. So, sometimes “whatabout” can be constructive. It depends on whether the intent is to understand, or deflect.
    All I ask is that people actually be open to an answer. Or at least a discussion of the facts.

  469. And, go ahead and let the police wear their helmets and Kevlar. Let them have bullet proof anti-riot vehicles. It looks menacing and it is menacing. It’s supposed to be.
    Yes, when used sparingly when appropriate, not as a matter of everyday policing. And even if the mob happens to be left-oriented, so long as it actually is a mob and not being called one only as an excuse.

  470. And, go ahead and let the police wear their helmets and Kevlar. Let them have bullet proof anti-riot vehicles. It looks menacing and it is menacing. It’s supposed to be.
    Yes, when used sparingly when appropriate, not as a matter of everyday policing. And even if the mob happens to be left-oriented, so long as it actually is a mob and not being called one only as an excuse.

  471. Either way, beauty queen Pence has been fully “grabbed” by Trump for every second of the past four-plus years.
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/report-trump-told-pence-he-could-go-down-in-history-as-a-patriot-or-a-pussy
    Pence thinks it was God who had him by his p*ssy all this time, mistaking the crushing trump vice-grip on his boys (shaking hands with the unemployed) for fake grifting bullshit Grace.
    It is now being “reported” that a Dem rep and a family member who barricaded in their offices during the murderous siege of the US Capitol frantically tried to activate the security panic button, one of which is installed in every Senators’ and Reps’ offices, but it had been ripped out, the entire unit.
    https://twitter.com/EoinHiggins_/status/1349232278636011520
    Somehow, I think, the term “esteemed colleague” used to address the other side of the aisle (which should be called the DMZ) in Congress is going to go the way of bipartisan congressional family interactions, bipartisan retreats, and other long-standing norms purposefully destroyed by scum subhuman death skull Gingrich and his f*cks nearly 30 years ago, as preparation for 1/6 infamy.
    If it’s learned that the insurrectionists and their inside job coup sponsors were directed to execute/injure Dem officials and their staffs and families that were present in the Capitol “as if they were Michael Brown”, it’s not going to make one bit of difference whether Brown was shot down in self-defense (which he was, as I conceded here once the Obama investigation report was released those millions of years ago, which of course gave no shelter to the many other unjustifiably citizens gunned down before and since) though it always amazes me when gummint-skeptical conservatives treat government conclusions as gospel, or not, as their druthers might be regarding what should be defunded or not).
    So, besides repeating that we ain’t seen nuthin yet, we also know hardly anything yet regarding the depth of criminal complicity and conspiracy of the Trump conservative movement deep state in this travesty, the attempted overthrow of the US Government and a Presidential election AND the murders that occurred and the ones that were averted by the mere luck of unprepared quick thinking by some decent people, not that there status as government employees will ever be held in any esteem whatsoever by the usual suspects.
    It’s getting better all the ti i mme.
    It can’t get no worse.
    What we are going to learn about the “worse” is going to blow our socks off, for the mere failure of imagination on all of our parts to suss out who these vermin truly are.
    I’m going to predict that like the commission reports on the Kennedy assassination and 9/11, huge chunks of the evidence, findings, and conclusions regarding 1/6 will be classified and blacked out, because no one, is going to be able to handle (least of all this entity called a “country”) the entire ugly malignant truth and nuthin but.
    We’ll get plenty of pablum about healing and so f*cking forth, including from those evil ones who are not apprehended but will go right back to work to kill my government.
    The upside of course is that we shall have decades of rueful speculation on political blogs ahead of us to tear each other new ones.

  472. Either way, beauty queen Pence has been fully “grabbed” by Trump for every second of the past four-plus years.
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/report-trump-told-pence-he-could-go-down-in-history-as-a-patriot-or-a-pussy
    Pence thinks it was God who had him by his p*ssy all this time, mistaking the crushing trump vice-grip on his boys (shaking hands with the unemployed) for fake grifting bullshit Grace.
    It is now being “reported” that a Dem rep and a family member who barricaded in their offices during the murderous siege of the US Capitol frantically tried to activate the security panic button, one of which is installed in every Senators’ and Reps’ offices, but it had been ripped out, the entire unit.
    https://twitter.com/EoinHiggins_/status/1349232278636011520
    Somehow, I think, the term “esteemed colleague” used to address the other side of the aisle (which should be called the DMZ) in Congress is going to go the way of bipartisan congressional family interactions, bipartisan retreats, and other long-standing norms purposefully destroyed by scum subhuman death skull Gingrich and his f*cks nearly 30 years ago, as preparation for 1/6 infamy.
    If it’s learned that the insurrectionists and their inside job coup sponsors were directed to execute/injure Dem officials and their staffs and families that were present in the Capitol “as if they were Michael Brown”, it’s not going to make one bit of difference whether Brown was shot down in self-defense (which he was, as I conceded here once the Obama investigation report was released those millions of years ago, which of course gave no shelter to the many other unjustifiably citizens gunned down before and since) though it always amazes me when gummint-skeptical conservatives treat government conclusions as gospel, or not, as their druthers might be regarding what should be defunded or not).
    So, besides repeating that we ain’t seen nuthin yet, we also know hardly anything yet regarding the depth of criminal complicity and conspiracy of the Trump conservative movement deep state in this travesty, the attempted overthrow of the US Government and a Presidential election AND the murders that occurred and the ones that were averted by the mere luck of unprepared quick thinking by some decent people, not that there status as government employees will ever be held in any esteem whatsoever by the usual suspects.
    It’s getting better all the ti i mme.
    It can’t get no worse.
    What we are going to learn about the “worse” is going to blow our socks off, for the mere failure of imagination on all of our parts to suss out who these vermin truly are.
    I’m going to predict that like the commission reports on the Kennedy assassination and 9/11, huge chunks of the evidence, findings, and conclusions regarding 1/6 will be classified and blacked out, because no one, is going to be able to handle (least of all this entity called a “country”) the entire ugly malignant truth and nuthin but.
    We’ll get plenty of pablum about healing and so f*cking forth, including from those evil ones who are not apprehended but will go right back to work to kill my government.
    The upside of course is that we shall have decades of rueful speculation on political blogs ahead of us to tear each other new ones.

  475. One thing I don’t think we’ve really discussed much is how riots and protests relate to each other in terms of timing and how integral the rioting is to the protesting. The trend I observed during the summer protests was that most of the criminality occurred toward the end of or after the height of the protests. (What violence did occur during the protests was often precipitated by police deciding to intervene unnecessarily or by counter protesters looking to punch some hippies.)
    The worst stuff happened after most of the protesters (often including families with young kids in tow) had left. And there were plenty of smaller marches in towns across the country during and after which nothing bad at all happened. One such march happened about a mile and half from my house. My whole family would have been there but for another obligation. We don’t riot.
    The Capitol riot was more or less indistinguishable from the protest. It was kind of the point of the whole thing for many of the people there, including the organizers.

  476. One thing I don’t think we’ve really discussed much is how riots and protests relate to each other in terms of timing and how integral the rioting is to the protesting. The trend I observed during the summer protests was that most of the criminality occurred toward the end of or after the height of the protests. (What violence did occur during the protests was often precipitated by police deciding to intervene unnecessarily or by counter protesters looking to punch some hippies.)
    The worst stuff happened after most of the protesters (often including families with young kids in tow) had left. And there were plenty of smaller marches in towns across the country during and after which nothing bad at all happened. One such march happened about a mile and half from my house. My whole family would have been there but for another obligation. We don’t riot.
    The Capitol riot was more or less indistinguishable from the protest. It was kind of the point of the whole thing for many of the people there, including the organizers.

  479. The Capitol riot was more or less indistinguishable from the protest. It was kind of the point of the whole thing for many of the people there, including the organizers.
    yep.
    and don’t forget the instigators.
    the attempted coup was encouraged by the President, his family, several Senators, countless representatives, and nearly the entire right wing mediasphere.
    this was a top-down event.
    the summer riots were entirely bottom-up.

  480. The Capitol riot was more or less indistinguishable from the protest. It was kind of the point of the whole thing for many of the people there, including the organizers.
    yep.
    and don’t forget the instigators.
    the attempted coup was encouraged by the President, his family, several Senators, countless representatives, and nearly the entire right wing mediasphere.
    this was a top-down event.
    the summer riots were entirely bottom-up.

  483. Goes without saying, but it’s too bad it must be said again and again:
    https://twitter.com/AttorneyCrump/status/1349109130754203655
    I do enjoy it when coup planners and wanna-be assassins record the evidence with which their tribunals will f*cking hang them.
    I guess that serves efficiency in government.
    https://twitter.com/cm_merlin/status/1349252219242237952
    One difference between murderous Michael Brown and these murderous revolutionaries is that Brown had no plan or schematic in his addled mind regarding his actions that fateful day, least of all one communicated to him by President Obama and Democratic politicians in Congress.

  484. Goes without saying, but it’s too bad it must be said again and again:
    https://twitter.com/AttorneyCrump/status/1349109130754203655
    I do enjoy it when coup planners and wanna-be assassins record the evidence with which their tribunals will f*cking hang them.
    I guess that serves efficiency in government.
    https://twitter.com/cm_merlin/status/1349252219242237952
    One difference between murderous Michael Brown and these murderous revolutionaries is that Brown had no plan or schematic in his addled mind regarding his actions that fateful day, least of all one communicated to him by President Obama and Democratic politicians in Congress.

  487. WATCH: Rep. Jason Crow (D-Colo.) says majority of GOP “paralyzed with fear” @RepJasonCrow: “I had a lot of conversations with my Republican colleagues. … A couple of them broke down in tears … saying that they are afraid for their lives if they vote for this impeachment.” pic.twitter.com/ESEu40WW1P
    — Meet the Press (@MeetThePress) January 13, 2021
    It was written:
    “That is all to the good for principled conservatism.
    You mean, the hostages, don’t you, after they are deprogrammed of their Stockholm Syndrome trances. In the 19th century, various invading white settlers in Texas were kidnapped by Comanche, and if not murdered, adopted by Comanche warriors.
    Those that were repatriated found the going tough, even dying soon after, while some refused to return to their families and society.
    If principled conservatism comes out of this debacle still attempting to abolish Obamacare, Social Security, Medicaid, and Medicare, and treat immigrants like garbage and our allies like enemies, and so on and on, I’m going to suspect they are still too far gone Comanche-wise to re-adapt to a civilized polity.
    And heck, the original Comanche at least had a point in their travails.
    None of us have wiped out conservative movement bison herds, though if we view Citizens United as the financing food source for the coup-supporting conservative movement’s installed political infrastructure, maybe we should give that a second look as a way nipping this shit in the bud.

  488. WATCH: Rep. Jason Crow (D-Colo.) says majority of GOP “paralyzed with fear” @RepJasonCrow: “I had a lot of conversations with my Republican colleagues. … A couple of them broke down in tears … saying that they are afraid for their lives if they vote for this impeachment.” pic.twitter.com/ESEu40WW1P
    — Meet the Press (@MeetThePress) January 13, 2021
    It was written:
    “That is all to the good for principled conservatism.
    You mean, the hostages, don’t you, after they are deprogrammed of their Stockholm Syndrome trances. In the 19th century, various invading white settlers in Texas were kidnapped by Comanche, and if not murdered, adopted by Comanche warriors.
    Those that were repatriated found the going tough, even dying soon after, while some refused to return to their families and society.
    If principled conservatism comes out of this debacle still attempting to abolish Obamacare, Social Security, Medicaid, and Medicare, and treat immigrants like garbage and our allies like enemies, and so on and on, I’m going to suspect they are still too far gone Comanche-wise to re-adapt to a civilized polity.
    And heck, the original Comanche at least had a point in their travails.
    None of us have wiped out conservative movement bison herds, though if we view Citizens United as the financing food source for the coup-supporting conservative movement’s installed political infrastructure, maybe we should give that a second look as a way nipping this shit in the bud.

  491. I’m guessing the damage done to our democratic institutions last week will total up to something like $5 Trillion, but that assumes you can put a dollar value on things like “democracy”.
    Prove me wrong!

  492. I’m guessing the damage done to our democratic institutions last week will total up to something like $5 Trillion, but that assumes you can put a dollar value on things like “democracy”.
    Prove me wrong!

  493. My Congresscritter, Pramala Jayapal, has been infected with COVID due to the crowded conditions as the People’s Representatives hid in fear for their lives, and GOP members (also in hiding for some reason) deigned to put on masks in order to show their political correctness (the kind of theatrical political dedication that would make chairman Mao happy).
    Shame on you, GOP.

  494. My Congresscritter, Pramala Jayapal, has been infected with COVID due to the crowded conditions as the People’s Representatives hid in fear for their lives, and GOP members (also in hiding for some reason) deigned to put on masks in order to show their political correctness (the kind of theatrical political dedication that would make chairman Mao happy).
    Shame on you, GOP.

  495. It’s generally foolish to assume that McConnell will “do the right thing.” But it’s beginning to look like he just might.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/13/how-mitch-mcconnell-could-do-maximum-damage-trump-right-now/
    Not because it’s the right thing to do, of course. (You can only use “McConnell” and “moral compass” in the same sentence if it also includes “complete lack of”.) But he seems to be coming around to the idea that it would be to his political advantage. If he gets there, Trump is toast in jig time.

  496. It’s generally foolish to assume that McConnell will “do the right thing.” But it’s beginning to look like he just might.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/13/how-mitch-mcconnell-could-do-maximum-damage-trump-right-now/
    Not because it’s the right thing to do, of course. (You can only use “McConnell” and “moral compass” in the same sentence if it also includes “complete lack of”.) But he seems to be coming around to the idea that it would be to his political advantage. If he gets there, Trump is toast in jig time.

  497. bobbyp, they did not deign to put on masks. They refused to put on masks, thus potentially making an insurrection by DJT (and their) supporters a superspreader event.
    Way to go! Two birds with one stone.

  498. bobbyp, they did not deign to put on masks. They refused to put on masks, thus potentially making an insurrection by DJT (and their) supporters a superspreader event.
    Way to go! Two birds with one stone.

  501. Perhaps not.
    “Not” was always the safe bet. But that we’ve even gotten to perhaps is a big step. A week ago, it would have been unimaginable. By next week? Who knows.

  502. Perhaps not.
    “Not” was always the safe bet. But that we’ve even gotten to perhaps is a big step. A week ago, it would have been unimaginable. By next week? Who knows.

  503. wj, this seemed to me a good example of your optimism at work, although you quite correctly cover yourself by impugning his motives. However, although I’d love to be wrong, it does look as if “McConnell” and “do the right thing” are still mutually exclusive. (Although I suppose, and I say this reluctantly, by supporting going back in and confirming the electors’ votes in the Senate on the 6th, that was the right thing. Possibly (likely) self-interest of course.)

  504. wj, this seemed to me a good example of your optimism at work, although you quite correctly cover yourself by impugning his motives. However, although I’d love to be wrong, it does look as if “McConnell” and “do the right thing” are still mutually exclusive. (Although I suppose, and I say this reluctantly, by supporting going back in and confirming the electors’ votes in the Senate on the 6th, that was the right thing. Possibly (likely) self-interest of course.)

  505. “chatter”
    After four years of observing and trying to read trump, there was something, vague and inchoate as the impressions might be, about his demeanor the last three weeks.
    There was this air of dead certainty about him, like he knew something, like something was up his sleeve. He KNEW something was coming that would give him the stolen election.
    I repeat “you ain’t seen nuthin yet”. It’s written all over his face.
    The fix was in.
    It made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up and prickle.
    Two other Dem reps have also tested positive for the virus since the coup.
    At least one is a cancer survivor and none are spring chickens.
    It’s attempted murder, just like all the rest of the human beings in this country have been infected on purpose by conservative movement actors, including, among the latter, trump himself.
    If they were lepers, they would wear their picked scabs and running sores like a stigmata and rub themselves against us.
    We’ve no idea of what we’re dealing with.
    This is Jim Jones level psychotic murder.

  506. “chatter”
    After four years of observing and trying to read trump, there was something, vague and inchoate as the impressions might be, about his demeanor the last three weeks.
    There was this air of dead certainty about him, like he knew something, like something was up his sleeve. He KNEW something was coming that would give him the stolen election.
    I repeat “you ain’t seen nuthin yet”. It’s written all over his face.
    The fix was in.
    It made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up and prickle.
    Two other Dem reps have also tested positive for the virus since the coup.
    At least one is a cancer survivor and none are spring chickens.
    It’s attempted murder, just like all the rest of the human beings in this country have been infected on purpose by conservative movement actors, including, among the latter, trump himself.
    If they were lepers, they would wear their picked scabs and running sores like a stigmata and rub themselves against us.
    We’ve no idea of what we’re dealing with.
    This is Jim Jones level psychotic murder.

  507. Thanks, GFTNC. Obviously, the word “deign” is not one I use with any regularity. I was also going to gratuitously mention “intersectionality” and “cis” just to confuse/poke at McKinney, but was a bit hesitant, as I don’t know what those words mean either. But I hear they are bad, bad, bad….
    🙂

  508. Thanks, GFTNC. Obviously, the word “deign” is not one I use with any regularity. I was also going to gratuitously mention “intersectionality” and “cis” just to confuse/poke at McKinney, but was a bit hesitant, as I don’t know what those words mean either. But I hear they are bad, bad, bad….
    🙂

  509. They are all Michael Brown now:
    As an aside, Russ Fulcher was the most aggressive member pushing through the metal detectors last night.
    A female officer kind of got in his way—I think inadvertently—and he really was…assertive.
    The cop didn’t want to talk, but she almost seemed on the verge of tears after.
    Show this thread
    Matt Fuller
    @MEPFuller
    ·
    2h
    Rep. Bill Huizenga walks through the metal detector. He sets it off and keeps walking.
    Matt Fuller
    @MEPFuller
    ·
    2h
    Rep. Alex Mooney walks through the metal detectors while talking on the phone.
    He extends his hand as if to say, ‘I’m on the phone,’ and just walks onto the floor.
    Matt Fuller
    @MEPFuller
    ·
    2h
    Rep. Paul Gosar waits in line for the metal detector.
    He walks through, sets off the machine, and then just keeps going.
    Matt Fuller
    @
    Rep. Virginia Foxx sets off the metal detectors and keeps walking to the floor.
    “Good morning, guys,” Foxx says as she passes through.
    Matt Fuller
    @MEPFuller
    ·
    2h
    Rep. Louie Gohmert sidesteps the magnetometer, shaking his head and waving off the police.
    Matt Fuller
    @MEPFuller
    ·
    2h
    Rep. Jeff Duncan sidesteps the magnetometer.
    Matt Fuller
    @MEPFuller
    ·
    2h
    Rep. Markwayne Mullin sidesteps the metal detectors.
    Matt Fuller
    @MEPFuller
    ·
    2h
    Rep. Garret Graves sidesteps the metal detectors.
    Matt Fuller
    @MEPFuller
    ·
    2h
    Rep. Bob Latta sets off the metal detector and walks right past the cops.
    This system has been rendered meaningless.
    Matt Fuller
    @MEPFuller
    ·
    2h
    And Chip Roy sidesteps the magnetometer.
    We aren’t going to need a commission.
    Just aim and fire.

  510. They are all Michael Brown now:
    As an aside, Russ Fulcher was the most aggressive member pushing through the metal detectors last night.
    A female officer kind of got in his way—I think inadvertently—and he really was…assertive.
    The cop didn’t want to talk, but she almost seemed on the verge of tears after.
    Show this thread
    Matt Fuller
    @MEPFuller
    ·
    2h
    Rep. Bill Huizenga walks through the metal detector. He sets it off and keeps walking.
    Matt Fuller
    @MEPFuller
    ·
    2h
    Rep. Alex Mooney walks through the metal detectors while talking on the phone.
    He extends his hand as if to say, ‘I’m on the phone,’ and just walks onto the floor.
    Matt Fuller
    @MEPFuller
    ·
    2h
    Rep. Paul Gosar waits in line for the metal detector.
    He walks through, sets off the machine, and then just keeps going.
    Matt Fuller
    @
    Rep. Virginia Foxx sets off the metal detectors and keeps walking to the floor.
    “Good morning, guys,” Foxx says as she passes through.
    Matt Fuller
    @MEPFuller
    ·
    2h
    Rep. Louie Gohmert sidesteps the magnetometer, shaking his head and waving off the police.
    Matt Fuller
    @MEPFuller
    ·
    2h
    Rep. Jeff Duncan sidesteps the magnetometer.
    Matt Fuller
    @MEPFuller
    ·
    2h
    Rep. Markwayne Mullin sidesteps the metal detectors.
    Matt Fuller
    @MEPFuller
    ·
    2h
    Rep. Garret Graves sidesteps the metal detectors.
    Matt Fuller
    @MEPFuller
    ·
    2h
    Rep. Bob Latta sets off the metal detector and walks right past the cops.
    This system has been rendered meaningless.
    Matt Fuller
    @MEPFuller
    ·
    2h
    And Chip Roy sidesteps the magnetometer.
    We aren’t going to need a commission.
    Just aim and fire.

  513. I was also going to gratuitously mention “intersectionality” and “cis” just to confuse/poke at McKinney……I hear they are bad, bad, bad….
    LOL, bobbyp. And please note how I took the opportunity to sneak an “impugn” in there.

  514. I was also going to gratuitously mention “intersectionality” and “cis” just to confuse/poke at McKinney……I hear they are bad, bad, bad….
    LOL, bobbyp. And please note how I took the opportunity to sneak an “impugn” in there.

  517. I’m reminded of something I was thinking earlier about how in over their head’s some of these people are going to find themselves. I don’t want this to be taken as making light of the suicide reported at the link in my last comment, so don’t take it that way.
    Given the statements from the Justice Department about the number of cases they’re pursuing and the aggressiveness with which they intend to pursue them, very serious consequences are going to come from what appeared to be considered a fun bit of mischief by many of the participants. “Hey, look at me being crazy inside the Capitol! What a goof!” seemed to be the attitude.
    Something I’ve quoted (possibly misquoted) many times from Mike Tyson – everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. A whole bunch of people are going to get punched in the mouth over this, and their plans will be cancelled.
    All, of course, as it should be if Justice moves as they’ve said they will.

  518. I’m reminded of something I was thinking earlier about how in over their head’s some of these people are going to find themselves. I don’t want this to be taken as making light of the suicide reported at the link in my last comment, so don’t take it that way.
    Given the statements from the Justice Department about the number of cases they’re pursuing and the aggressiveness with which they intend to pursue them, very serious consequences are going to come from what appeared to be considered a fun bit of mischief by many of the participants. “Hey, look at me being crazy inside the Capitol! What a goof!” seemed to be the attitude.
    Something I’ve quoted (possibly misquoted) many times from Mike Tyson – everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. A whole bunch of people are going to get punched in the mouth over this, and their plans will be cancelled.
    All, of course, as it should be if Justice moves as they’ve said they will.

  521. The image of a man wearing a black hoodie with the words “Camp Auschwitz” emblazoned in white letters rinside the U.S. Capitol building was circulated widely on social media.
    Packer has a lengthy criminal record in the area and has been arrested in Newport News “well over a dozen times,” Newport News Sheriff Gabriel Morgan told ABC News.
    Previous offenses included assault and battery, driving under the influence, drunk in public, driving under revocation, and probation violation, among others, Morgan said. Packer was last jailed in the county in 2012.
    Packer faces charges of unlawful entry into the U.S. Capitol and violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds, according to an arrest warrant filed in Virginia federal court.
    He was being held at the Western Tidewater Regional Jail and is expected to appear in federal court in Norfolk, Virginia, Wednesday afternoon.

    enjoy your upcoming stay at Camp FCI Petersburg!

  522. The image of a man wearing a black hoodie with the words “Camp Auschwitz” emblazoned in white letters rinside the U.S. Capitol building was circulated widely on social media.
    Packer has a lengthy criminal record in the area and has been arrested in Newport News “well over a dozen times,” Newport News Sheriff Gabriel Morgan told ABC News.
    Previous offenses included assault and battery, driving under the influence, drunk in public, driving under revocation, and probation violation, among others, Morgan said. Packer was last jailed in the county in 2012.
    Packer faces charges of unlawful entry into the U.S. Capitol and violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds, according to an arrest warrant filed in Virginia federal court.
    He was being held at the Western Tidewater Regional Jail and is expected to appear in federal court in Norfolk, Virginia, Wednesday afternoon.

    enjoy your upcoming stay at Camp FCI Petersburg!

  523. Obviously, the word “deign” is not one I use with any regularity
    “Deign” comes from the same root as “dignify”. It’s the opposite of “disdain”, which is spelt quite differently because Samuel Johnson in about 1750 lost the thread.

  524. Obviously, the word “deign” is not one I use with any regularity
    “Deign” comes from the same root as “dignify”. It’s the opposite of “disdain”, which is spelt quite differently because Samuel Johnson in about 1750 lost the thread.

  527. The “look over there…” line thrust upon us by some Texas lawyer above is being spouted by just about every GOP speaker in the current House debate rising to oppose the motion to impeach. It’s like, “Izz’at all you got?”
    Interesting tidbit: GOP stalwart from Sunnyside, WA, Dan Newhouse, rose to speak in favor of impeachment. Good on him. So too for Jaime Herrera Beutler. Good on her. Looks like Cathy McMorris Rodgers hewed to the party line. Boo. Hiss.

  528. The “look over there…” line thrust upon us by some Texas lawyer above is being spouted by just about every GOP speaker in the current House debate rising to oppose the motion to impeach. It’s like, “Izz’at all you got?”
    Interesting tidbit: GOP stalwart from Sunnyside, WA, Dan Newhouse, rose to speak in favor of impeachment. Good on him. So too for Jaime Herrera Beutler. Good on her. Looks like Cathy McMorris Rodgers hewed to the party line. Boo. Hiss.

  529. “Phone numbers belonging to two of Sen. Ted Cruz’s (R-TX) offices appeared to be listed as contact information in a note found in a truck belonging to Lonnie Coffman, who has been indicted for allegedly carrying unregistered firearms and 11 Molotov cocktails in that same vehicle during the pro-Trump insurrection last week. New court documents that include photos of the truck and the items found inside the vehicle show a Motel 6 magazine with “Senator Ted Cruz” handwritten on the back next to two phone numbers. When called by TPM, the numbers connect to Cruz’s offices in D.C. and Central Texas.”

  530. “Phone numbers belonging to two of Sen. Ted Cruz’s (R-TX) offices appeared to be listed as contact information in a note found in a truck belonging to Lonnie Coffman, who has been indicted for allegedly carrying unregistered firearms and 11 Molotov cocktails in that same vehicle during the pro-Trump insurrection last week. New court documents that include photos of the truck and the items found inside the vehicle show a Motel 6 magazine with “Senator Ted Cruz” handwritten on the back next to two phone numbers. When called by TPM, the numbers connect to Cruz’s offices in D.C. and Central Texas.”

  537. Our military must be purged, and these bad actors defunded.
    I know a Navy Seal.
    He’s a punk.
    He believes all of this crap.
    I’m polite when I’m around him.
    He’s a trained killer.

  538. Our military must be purged, and these bad actors defunded.
    I know a Navy Seal.
    He’s a punk.
    He believes all of this crap.
    I’m polite when I’m around him.
    He’s a trained killer.

  539. very serious consequences are going to come from what appeared to be considered a fun bit of mischief by many of the participants.
    Reality TV mindset meets reality. Not gonna be pretty for the deluded. But nothing else seems to have gotten thru to them.

  540. very serious consequences are going to come from what appeared to be considered a fun bit of mischief by many of the participants.
    Reality TV mindset meets reality. Not gonna be pretty for the deluded. But nothing else seems to have gotten thru to them.

  543. Oh Lord, Lordy, the commie libs are turning our children against us
    Seems a bit of a stretch to essentially disown your kid for being who she is. And then complain that someone else turned her against you.**
    ** Yeah, I do realize that this JDT, and not necessarily the parents’ complaint. Although he’s right that it is likely to be.

  544. Oh Lord, Lordy, the commie libs are turning our children against us
    Seems a bit of a stretch to essentially disown your kid for being who she is. And then complain that someone else turned her against you.**
    ** Yeah, I do realize that this JDT, and not necessarily the parents’ complaint. Although he’s right that it is likely to be.

  545. Remember all those Dem Congresscritters who shit their pants in fear for their life when voting against the impeachment of Bill Clinton? You might have missed it.
    But both sides.

  546. Remember all those Dem Congresscritters who shit their pants in fear for their life when voting against the impeachment of Bill Clinton? You might have missed it.
    But both sides.

  547. the commie libs are turning our children against us
    safety tip: don’t try to take a special forces cop’s phone away from them.
    just saying.

  548. the commie libs are turning our children against us
    safety tip: don’t try to take a special forces cop’s phone away from them.
    just saying.

  557. “The President is impeached”
    195 nays by the subhumans.
    Once again, future Presidents will feel free to receive oral sex in the Oval Office and lie about it.

  558. “The President is impeached”
    195 nays by the subhumans.
    Once again, future Presidents will feel free to receive oral sex in the Oval Office and lie about it.

  571. I always knew He, Trump would achieve the unprecedented accomplishment of being impeached twice, but I never thought it would be in just one term.
    Any GOP blather about “coming together” must be preceded by this statement:
    “Biden in 2020 won just as big a landslide, and won it just as fairly, as Trump in 2016.”
    Anybody has the right to NOT say those words, of course. Just like anybody has the right to NOT say “The Earth is round and revolves around the Sun.” But not the right to be taken seriously for not saying them.
    –TP

  572. I always knew He, Trump would achieve the unprecedented accomplishment of being impeached twice, but I never thought it would be in just one term.
    Any GOP blather about “coming together” must be preceded by this statement:
    “Biden in 2020 won just as big a landslide, and won it just as fairly, as Trump in 2016.”
    Anybody has the right to NOT say those words, of course. Just like anybody has the right to NOT say “The Earth is round and revolves around the Sun.” But not the right to be taken seriously for not saying them.
    –TP

  573. Remember all those Dem Congresscritters who shit their pants in fear for their life when voting against the impeachment of Bill Clinton? You might have missed it.
    Exactly. God those Dems are hypocritical, unprincipled goons at the mercy of their constituency of killer commies. They’re prepared to vote against impeaching Bill Clinton for lying about a blowjob, but want to impeach DJT for trying to withold already-authorised aid to an ally unless he accedes to blackmail to frame DJT’s rival’s son, for trying to get elected officials to “fix” an election for him, and for inciting insurrection and an attempted coup.
    What a bunch of hypocritical wusses.

  574. Remember all those Dem Congresscritters who shit their pants in fear for their life when voting against the impeachment of Bill Clinton? You might have missed it.
    Exactly. God those Dems are hypocritical, unprincipled goons at the mercy of their constituency of killer commies. They’re prepared to vote against impeaching Bill Clinton for lying about a blowjob, but want to impeach DJT for trying to withold already-authorised aid to an ally unless he accedes to blackmail to frame DJT’s rival’s son, for trying to get elected officials to “fix” an election for him, and for inciting insurrection and an attempted coup.
    What a bunch of hypocritical wusses.

  575. And, on nooneithinkisinmytree (thank you for selecting an even more annoying-to-type handle than mine)’s link to digby, I completely agree.
    I only wish the piece wasn’t headed by a picture of Rowan Atkinson, who although his role of Blackadder in every period is a masterpiece, and he was a masterly stand-up (I saw one of his very earliest gigs),and a good actor even at the beginning – I saw his performance in The Dog Beneath the Skin directed by a friend of mine when they were both undergraduates at Oxford, nonetheless I feel very torn about him (and not just because of Mister Bean). I recently have had it on firsthand authority that he is a fairly extreme rightwing arsehole. And his brother might be worse. Ah well, in a reversal of the title of that early homo-erotic film starring a memorable Dirk Bogarde playing a Mexican bandit called Anacleto, (who, as I recall, recants on his deathbed because of his “admiration” for the local priest) in this case it will have to be The Song, not the Singer.
    (I hope this is not as incomprehensible to you lot as it now seems to me, but I’m not going to redo it!)

  576. And, on nooneithinkisinmytree (thank you for selecting an even more annoying-to-type handle than mine)’s link to digby, I completely agree.
    I only wish the piece wasn’t headed by a picture of Rowan Atkinson, who although his role of Blackadder in every period is a masterpiece, and he was a masterly stand-up (I saw one of his very earliest gigs),and a good actor even at the beginning – I saw his performance in The Dog Beneath the Skin directed by a friend of mine when they were both undergraduates at Oxford, nonetheless I feel very torn about him (and not just because of Mister Bean). I recently have had it on firsthand authority that he is a fairly extreme rightwing arsehole. And his brother might be worse. Ah well, in a reversal of the title of that early homo-erotic film starring a memorable Dirk Bogarde playing a Mexican bandit called Anacleto, (who, as I recall, recants on his deathbed because of his “admiration” for the local priest) in this case it will have to be The Song, not the Singer.
    (I hope this is not as incomprehensible to you lot as it now seems to me, but I’m not going to redo it!)

  577. “Biden in 2020 won just as big a landslide, and won it just as fairly, as Trump in 2016.”
    Good with me, so should we start the Biden investigations now?

  578. “Biden in 2020 won just as big a landslide, and won it just as fairly, as Trump in 2016.”
    Good with me, so should we start the Biden investigations now?

  579. so should we start the Biden investigations now?
    Got any indication of Biden publicly asking a foreign country to help him win? That’s a great place to start . . . if you do.

  580. so should we start the Biden investigations now?
    Got any indication of Biden publicly asking a foreign country to help him win? That’s a great place to start . . . if you do.

  581. Have just found the whole film of The Singer not the Song on Youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsh_IqEC7mY
    If you are interested, go to 2.08.00, Anacleto does not recant, but it is a good, romantic ending. I cannot emphasise enough what an impression this film (Bogarde really) made on the young GftNC who was entirely unaware of the gay undercurrent.

  582. Have just found the whole film of The Singer not the Song on Youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsh_IqEC7mY
    If you are interested, go to 2.08.00, Anacleto does not recant, but it is a good, romantic ending. I cannot emphasise enough what an impression this film (Bogarde really) made on the young GftNC who was entirely unaware of the gay undercurrent.

  583. I didn’t realize that:
    The 10 Republicans joining the vote to impeach Trump makes it the most bipartisan impeachment vote in history.

  584. I didn’t realize that:
    The 10 Republicans joining the vote to impeach Trump makes it the most bipartisan impeachment vote in history.

  585. Marty, I believe the Biden investigations have already taken place, and have come up with zero evidence (as opposed to the “non-zero number” of R observers one of the R attorneys was forced to admit to a judge were actually present at one of the disputed counts) in every case, as attested by a Trump-loyal AG, the FBI, the courts and everybody else.
    The Trump investigations, on the other hand, regarding illicit foreign interference in his 2016 election, as wj says, have been found by every organ of the US intelligence community and legal community to be heavily substantiated. Only these same “principled” R legislators have prevented the findings being acted upon.

  586. Marty, I believe the Biden investigations have already taken place, and have come up with zero evidence (as opposed to the “non-zero number” of R observers one of the R attorneys was forced to admit to a judge were actually present at one of the disputed counts) in every case, as attested by a Trump-loyal AG, the FBI, the courts and everybody else.
    The Trump investigations, on the other hand, regarding illicit foreign interference in his 2016 election, as wj says, have been found by every organ of the US intelligence community and legal community to be heavily substantiated. Only these same “principled” R legislators have prevented the findings being acted upon.

  587. The 10 Republicans joining the vote to impeach Trump makes it the most bipartisan impeachment vote in history.
    Many records. DJT holds the record for presidential impeachments: half of all of them. He’s a winner!

  588. The 10 Republicans joining the vote to impeach Trump makes it the most bipartisan impeachment vote in history.
    Many records. DJT holds the record for presidential impeachments: half of all of them. He’s a winner!

  589. Too much GftNC on this thread! I’ve had a long, tiring day, and am off to bed. Good night, all.

  590. Too much GftNC on this thread! I’ve had a long, tiring day, and am off to bed. Good night, all.

  591. Marty: Good with me, so should we start the Biden investigations now?
    Depends. Are we done with Hillary yet?
    Can we do it after we see He, Trump’s tax returns?
    Should we investigate how Obama “killed a Supreme” while we’re at it?
    –TP

  592. Marty: Good with me, so should we start the Biden investigations now?
    Depends. Are we done with Hillary yet?
    Can we do it after we see He, Trump’s tax returns?
    Should we investigate how Obama “killed a Supreme” while we’re at it?
    –TP

  593. Good with me, so should we start the Biden investigations now?
    Nah. Jimmy Carter is the real monster, and he’s still hanging around, spreading his liberal filth at home-building workshop commie fronts. Get him on the stand and sweat him mercilessly about Bert Lance.

  594. Good with me, so should we start the Biden investigations now?
    Nah. Jimmy Carter is the real monster, and he’s still hanging around, spreading his liberal filth at home-building workshop commie fronts. Get him on the stand and sweat him mercilessly about Bert Lance.

  595. In bed, but have only just seen cleek’s answer to the Digby link I liked. I agree with cleek too! So sue me (and you know what F Scott Fitzgerald said about the ability to hold two conflicting opinions simultaneously). Niels Bohr said something interesting too, if I recall correctly, about how you could tell if something was a “profound truth” because its opposite was also a profound truth. Not that I’m claiming that applies to Digby v cleek, of course. I’m just out of my brains exhausted and free-associating interesting (to me) stuff. Apologies, and GOOD NIGHT!

  596. In bed, but have only just seen cleek’s answer to the Digby link I liked. I agree with cleek too! So sue me (and you know what F Scott Fitzgerald said about the ability to hold two conflicting opinions simultaneously). Niels Bohr said something interesting too, if I recall correctly, about how you could tell if something was a “profound truth” because its opposite was also a profound truth. Not that I’m claiming that applies to Digby v cleek, of course. I’m just out of my brains exhausted and free-associating interesting (to me) stuff. Apologies, and GOOD NIGHT!

  597. I think that blocking a freeway is foolish and arrogant and counterproductive. I think that when a person who has experienced racism loses control of his or her emotions and breaks things , starts fires etc, it is understandable but still illegal and I would expect prosecutions I think that when young white men broke windows set fires etc they were showing entitlement, and exploiting other peoples; pain for their own self-aggrandizement FWIW I think Portland did a lousy jog of law enforcement. I figured the violence would harm the election chances of Dems.
    However what Trump did isn’t just different in degree; it’s different in kind. It started with a lie. That lie might not have had so much power if Republicans hadn’t been propagandizing their base with vicious lies about the rest of American for decades. The Republican media, the Republican party leadership and most of the Republican politicians share the responsibility for the decision to make defamation slander and lies the major content of their discourse. They share the responsibility for creating a radicalized angry base that believe any shit they hear on Faux.
    And the riots target whoever was handy, mostly business. I am not justifying that. It was cruel and selfish and stupid. But the Republican party has aimed itself at representative government. The party is already responsible for voter suppression, gerrymandering and court packing for the purpose of denying representation to other AMericans, Trump’s efforts to over turn the election are an extension of that attack on representative democracy itself.
    So no wonder most Republican politicians are still supporting him. It was the party of authoritarianism before Trump; He just made their contempt for the principles of representative government more obvious.

  598. I think that blocking a freeway is foolish and arrogant and counterproductive. I think that when a person who has experienced racism loses control of his or her emotions and breaks things , starts fires etc, it is understandable but still illegal and I would expect prosecutions I think that when young white men broke windows set fires etc they were showing entitlement, and exploiting other peoples; pain for their own self-aggrandizement FWIW I think Portland did a lousy jog of law enforcement. I figured the violence would harm the election chances of Dems.
    However what Trump did isn’t just different in degree; it’s different in kind. It started with a lie. That lie might not have had so much power if Republicans hadn’t been propagandizing their base with vicious lies about the rest of American for decades. The Republican media, the Republican party leadership and most of the Republican politicians share the responsibility for the decision to make defamation slander and lies the major content of their discourse. They share the responsibility for creating a radicalized angry base that believe any shit they hear on Faux.
    And the riots target whoever was handy, mostly business. I am not justifying that. It was cruel and selfish and stupid. But the Republican party has aimed itself at representative government. The party is already responsible for voter suppression, gerrymandering and court packing for the purpose of denying representation to other AMericans, Trump’s efforts to over turn the election are an extension of that attack on representative democracy itself.
    So no wonder most Republican politicians are still supporting him. It was the party of authoritarianism before Trump; He just made their contempt for the principles of representative government more obvious.

  599. “ I think that blocking a freeway is foolish and arrogant and counterproductive.”
    Yup. Such as when Trump supporters blocked Joe abide s bus on the highway while threatening him!

  600. “ I think that blocking a freeway is foolish and arrogant and counterproductive.”
    Yup. Such as when Trump supporters blocked Joe abide s bus on the highway while threatening him!

  607. Good with me, so should we start the Biden investigations now?
    Go for it.
    Too much GftNC on this thread!
    Unpossible!!!

  608. Good with me, so should we start the Biden investigations now?
    Go for it.
    Too much GftNC on this thread!
    Unpossible!!!

  609. A very late footnote to an earlier comment that passed by a while back. This from McKinney:
    Trying to say that rioting and burning over police violence is understandable and–as one commenter state here–justified as potentially a part of negotiating for more power (or words to that effect)
    I believe McKinney is referring to my mention that riots may have one positive effect in that they cost a lot of money and wear people down. I never said that this justified rioting. It doesn’t. What actually happens is that people respond to property damage by escalating enforcement, which costs a lot of money and sets the clock ticking on how much and how long they will continue to support. If the answer to that, as is often the case, is that the rioters feel they have nothing to lose, and if the escalated response broadens the grievance, then there is greater violence and greater cost and pressure starts to slide towards winding the conflict down.
    See also Iraq.
    That’s not justification, that’s analysis in response to the question of what a riot accomplishes.
    I expected (and expect) that McKinney would (and will) create narratives out of this assertion that favor his version of things. He is ever the lawyer in his habits of mind. My own habits of mind lean towards analysis and deliberation, which is why people like him always excuse people like me in the first round of jury selection. 😉

  610. A very late footnote to an earlier comment that passed by a while back. This from McKinney:
    Trying to say that rioting and burning over police violence is understandable and–as one commenter state here–justified as potentially a part of negotiating for more power (or words to that effect)
    I believe McKinney is referring to my mention that riots may have one positive effect in that they cost a lot of money and wear people down. I never said that this justified rioting. It doesn’t. What actually happens is that people respond to property damage by escalating enforcement, which costs a lot of money and sets the clock ticking on how much and how long they will continue to support. If the answer to that, as is often the case, is that the rioters feel they have nothing to lose, and if the escalated response broadens the grievance, then there is greater violence and greater cost and pressure starts to slide towards winding the conflict down.
    See also Iraq.
    That’s not justification, that’s analysis in response to the question of what a riot accomplishes.
    I expected (and expect) that McKinney would (and will) create narratives out of this assertion that favor his version of things. He is ever the lawyer in his habits of mind. My own habits of mind lean towards analysis and deliberation, which is why people like him always excuse people like me in the first round of jury selection. 😉

  615. Rep. Seth Moulton (D-Mass.), a veteran

    there are more troops right now in Washington, D.C., than in Afghanistan, and they are here to defend us against . . . the president of the United States and his mob.

  616. Rep. Seth Moulton (D-Mass.), a veteran

    there are more troops right now in Washington, D.C., than in Afghanistan, and they are here to defend us against . . . the president of the United States and his mob.

  617. I’m sitting here a week before Biden’s inauguration, shaking my head over the reality that Trump’s base is utterly incapable of accepting the fact that he lost.
    As in, they’ll take up fucking arms and storm the Capitol, because they can’t accept the fact that their guy lost.
    If people can’t accept the fact that people who aren’t like them, and who have different interests and a different point of view, live in the same country as them, *and deserve a voice in the country’s governance*, then this country is not going to survive in its present form.
    Good thing, bad thing, I have no idea. Depends on whatever would happen next.
    But if there’s going to be a United States of America, Trump supporters are going to have to get over themselves.
    You’re “not taking your country back”, it’s not “your country” to take back. It belongs to all of us. You all are destroying it.
    There is nothing in my power to do that I’m not already doing that is going to make it any more likely for them to give up this fucking pile of lies and move on. It is 100% up to them.
    It’s not “your country”. The country belongs to all of us. Get it through your thick freaking skulls.
    I continue to be amazed at how incomprehensible it is to these people that any negative consequences might come to them for any of this. Crying in the airport because they’ve been put on no-fly lists. Amazed that they were maced, after assaulting police officers. Smiling for camera as they run around the Capitol, vandalizing offices, stealing stuff, beating the shit out of cops, and generally running amok. Let alone hunting Congresspeople as if they were prey, with god knows what in mind.
    The FBI and similar will likely come knocking for many or most of these folks over the next days and weeks. They will have some serious explaining to do, and some of them will be looking at significant jail time.
    So be it.
    I’m not sure where we all go from here. It’s weird to consider sharing a country with people who thought it was a good idea to assault, capture, and possibly kill the folks we’ve chosen to represent us. Like, right out in the open, as if there was nothing untoward or remarkable about it. They need to make a good case for why the rest of us should put up with them for one New York freaking minute.
    In my opinion.
    Wise up, is my advice to them. Not that they give a crap what I think. But they really need to wise the hell up.
    “We need healing”. “We need to come together”. No, you all need to straighten up and fly right. You all got caught trying on an American version of the fucking Gunpowder Plot.
    No healing until you own that.

  618. I’m sitting here a week before Biden’s inauguration, shaking my head over the reality that Trump’s base is utterly incapable of accepting the fact that he lost.
    As in, they’ll take up fucking arms and storm the Capitol, because they can’t accept the fact that their guy lost.
    If people can’t accept the fact that people who aren’t like them, and who have different interests and a different point of view, live in the same country as them, *and deserve a voice in the country’s governance*, then this country is not going to survive in its present form.
    Good thing, bad thing, I have no idea. Depends on whatever would happen next.
    But if there’s going to be a United States of America, Trump supporters are going to have to get over themselves.
    You’re “not taking your country back”, it’s not “your country” to take back. It belongs to all of us. You all are destroying it.
    There is nothing in my power to do that I’m not already doing that is going to make it any more likely for them to give up this fucking pile of lies and move on. It is 100% up to them.
    It’s not “your country”. The country belongs to all of us. Get it through your thick freaking skulls.
    I continue to be amazed at how incomprehensible it is to these people that any negative consequences might come to them for any of this. Crying in the airport because they’ve been put on no-fly lists. Amazed that they were maced, after assaulting police officers. Smiling for camera as they run around the Capitol, vandalizing offices, stealing stuff, beating the shit out of cops, and generally running amok. Let alone hunting Congresspeople as if they were prey, with god knows what in mind.
    The FBI and similar will likely come knocking for many or most of these folks over the next days and weeks. They will have some serious explaining to do, and some of them will be looking at significant jail time.
    So be it.
    I’m not sure where we all go from here. It’s weird to consider sharing a country with people who thought it was a good idea to assault, capture, and possibly kill the folks we’ve chosen to represent us. Like, right out in the open, as if there was nothing untoward or remarkable about it. They need to make a good case for why the rest of us should put up with them for one New York freaking minute.
    In my opinion.
    Wise up, is my advice to them. Not that they give a crap what I think. But they really need to wise the hell up.
    “We need healing”. “We need to come together”. No, you all need to straighten up and fly right. You all got caught trying on an American version of the fucking Gunpowder Plot.
    No healing until you own that.

  623. russell: If people can’t accept the fact that people who aren’t like them…
    By my measure, the central prerequisite for being a mature adult is understanding that other people are
    1) truly “other,” and
    2) real.
    I.e., not the same as the phantasms in your head or the roles you’ve assigned them in your movie.
    Until relatively recently, I’ve always been inspired to think about this in the context of personal relationships (family dynamics, romantic relationships, friendships, etc.). Our present predicament has brought citizenship dynamics into the mix as well.
    WASF.
    It will be interesting to see if the news tidbit in David Anderson’s current BJ thread bears the kind of fruit he hopes it will.
    *****
    CaseyL: I am not in a forgiving mood.
    Nor am I. I had to go to a doctor’s appointment today. I usually listen to the radio only when I’m in the car, so I never hear it these days because I never go anywhere. Every time I turned it on (NPR) I heard another R lying his face off and had to turn it off. Luckily my Christmas CDs were still in the car, so I had a last session with the Ray Conniff Singers for another ten and a half months.

  624. russell: If people can’t accept the fact that people who aren’t like them…
    By my measure, the central prerequisite for being a mature adult is understanding that other people are
    1) truly “other,” and
    2) real.
    I.e., not the same as the phantasms in your head or the roles you’ve assigned them in your movie.
    Until relatively recently, I’ve always been inspired to think about this in the context of personal relationships (family dynamics, romantic relationships, friendships, etc.). Our present predicament has brought citizenship dynamics into the mix as well.
    WASF.
    It will be interesting to see if the news tidbit in David Anderson’s current BJ thread bears the kind of fruit he hopes it will.
    *****
    CaseyL: I am not in a forgiving mood.
    Nor am I. I had to go to a doctor’s appointment today. I usually listen to the radio only when I’m in the car, so I never hear it these days because I never go anywhere. Every time I turned it on (NPR) I heard another R lying his face off and had to turn it off. Luckily my Christmas CDs were still in the car, so I had a last session with the Ray Conniff Singers for another ten and a half months.

  627. David Anderson’s current BJ thread
    people are calling for stronger restrictions on social media and messaging.
    I say, if somebody’s engaged in seditious conspiracy, by all means capture it on history’s most public and persistent broadcast medium.
    a 21st century blessing: may all your enemies have a robust online presence

  628. David Anderson’s current BJ thread
    people are calling for stronger restrictions on social media and messaging.
    I say, if somebody’s engaged in seditious conspiracy, by all means capture it on history’s most public and persistent broadcast medium.
    a 21st century blessing: may all your enemies have a robust online presence

  629. These TBogg-unit threads remind me of the days we argued so bitterly over torture, during the W Administration.
    I remember being absolutely gobsmacked that there could be pro-torture commenters.
    Gobsmacked, horrified, appalled, repulsed… as if I’d come to debate an issue of politics and ethics, and stepped into someone’s private porn stash instead.
    I was horrified, not only because I thought being anti-torture was one of those unquestioned values we were supposed to have as civilized people/Americans/whatever, and not only because torture is an atrocity (and a war crime), but also because… it doesn’t even work at getting actionable intelligence.
    I remember people trying to repeat all this, over and over again, and the pro-torture commenters just… basically ignoring everything the anti-torturers said. Because the pro-torture commenters wanted so badly to believe torture was a good thing, or they just wanted torture to be a thing that “we” could do with impunity.
    This is so much the same dynamic. People who have glommed onto an idea that is not only wrong, not only an affront to the very idea of a representative democracy, not only deeply destructive to the very notion of a United States… but also doing so in service to the most appallingly unworthy object of devotion the body politic has ever coughed up.
    Some of us knew way back then that we were seeing the destruction of the US as a global force for good in the world. I’m not sure how many realized that we were also seeing the cynical, deliberate destruction of the American value system, or what we liked to believe were American values… and how it would come back to bite us in our own domestic politics.

  630. These TBogg-unit threads remind me of the days we argued so bitterly over torture, during the W Administration.
    I remember being absolutely gobsmacked that there could be pro-torture commenters.
    Gobsmacked, horrified, appalled, repulsed… as if I’d come to debate an issue of politics and ethics, and stepped into someone’s private porn stash instead.
    I was horrified, not only because I thought being anti-torture was one of those unquestioned values we were supposed to have as civilized people/Americans/whatever, and not only because torture is an atrocity (and a war crime), but also because… it doesn’t even work at getting actionable intelligence.
    I remember people trying to repeat all this, over and over again, and the pro-torture commenters just… basically ignoring everything the anti-torturers said. Because the pro-torture commenters wanted so badly to believe torture was a good thing, or they just wanted torture to be a thing that “we” could do with impunity.
    This is so much the same dynamic. People who have glommed onto an idea that is not only wrong, not only an affront to the very idea of a representative democracy, not only deeply destructive to the very notion of a United States… but also doing so in service to the most appallingly unworthy object of devotion the body politic has ever coughed up.
    Some of us knew way back then that we were seeing the destruction of the US as a global force for good in the world. I’m not sure how many realized that we were also seeing the cynical, deliberate destruction of the American value system, or what we liked to believe were American values… and how it would come back to bite us in our own domestic politics.

  631. a 21st century blessing: may all your enemies have a robust online presence
    And be dumb enough (as many of them seem to be) to talk about your criminal plans — makes proving conspiracy easier. And then post pictures and videos of yourself and your buddies committing those crimes.
    (They also don’t appear to realize that deleting your posts doesn’t remove them from the backups that all social media companies routinely make. Happily, the police do know.)

  632. a 21st century blessing: may all your enemies have a robust online presence
    And be dumb enough (as many of them seem to be) to talk about your criminal plans — makes proving conspiracy easier. And then post pictures and videos of yourself and your buddies committing those crimes.
    (They also don’t appear to realize that deleting your posts doesn’t remove them from the backups that all social media companies routinely make. Happily, the police do know.)

  633. Sadly, I think the “dumb enough” part won’t last. There will come a smarter bunch who know better than the incriminate themselves in this dumbass way.

  634. Sadly, I think the “dumb enough” part won’t last. There will come a smarter bunch who know better than the incriminate themselves in this dumbass way.

  635. “Happily, the police do know.)”
    Even the police across the country doing the insurrectionist posting on social media?

  636. “Happily, the police do know.)”
    Even the police across the country doing the insurrectionist posting on social media?

  637. Even the police across the country doing the insurrectionist posting on social media?
    There’s definitely a difference between what is known to an institution/organization collectively, and what is known to each and every member. Plus, in this case, it’s sufficient if the Feds’ experts know.

  638. Even the police across the country doing the insurrectionist posting on social media?
    There’s definitely a difference between what is known to an institution/organization collectively, and what is known to each and every member. Plus, in this case, it’s sufficient if the Feds’ experts know.

  639. Sadly, I think the “dumb enough” part won’t last.
    It’s true. There’s a constant cycle of law enforcement figuring something out, and then criminals (at least some of them) getting the message and adapting. Like fingerprints. Today, even a merely average criminal realizes that gloves are a good idea; but lots still don’t and leave prints at the scene.

  640. Sadly, I think the “dumb enough” part won’t last.
    It’s true. There’s a constant cycle of law enforcement figuring something out, and then criminals (at least some of them) getting the message and adapting. Like fingerprints. Today, even a merely average criminal realizes that gloves are a good idea; but lots still don’t and leave prints at the scene.

  641. Persistent online presence only helps while there is a functioning, centralized institutional presence to follow up and to prosecute and to enforce.
    I say again…flood the zone with shit is the information warfare equivalent of shock and awe and what we are seeing in both the right and left vis a vis “resistance” is a sort of Internet Protocol for non-governmental actors. The communication and organization flows around it. The government is shutting down the channels after the fact. As long as there are channels being left open and people who have freedom to air their grievances, we will have the potential for this violence as a persistent feature. And as long as the aggrieved can continue to recruit and radicalize using that, we will have a supply of would-be insurgents.
    To be clear, I don’t want those freedoms to go away. I don’t want those channels to go away. But the enlightenment model of rights, laws and governance is under terrible strain and we may need to find a new way to articulate and negotiate the balance between individual freedom and collective interdependency or we will watch as society fragments and implodes.
    Truly, if there is one thing the last week should teach us, it’s that the only thing that keeps the lights on is protocol.

  642. Persistent online presence only helps while there is a functioning, centralized institutional presence to follow up and to prosecute and to enforce.
    I say again…flood the zone with shit is the information warfare equivalent of shock and awe and what we are seeing in both the right and left vis a vis “resistance” is a sort of Internet Protocol for non-governmental actors. The communication and organization flows around it. The government is shutting down the channels after the fact. As long as there are channels being left open and people who have freedom to air their grievances, we will have the potential for this violence as a persistent feature. And as long as the aggrieved can continue to recruit and radicalize using that, we will have a supply of would-be insurgents.
    To be clear, I don’t want those freedoms to go away. I don’t want those channels to go away. But the enlightenment model of rights, laws and governance is under terrible strain and we may need to find a new way to articulate and negotiate the balance between individual freedom and collective interdependency or we will watch as society fragments and implodes.
    Truly, if there is one thing the last week should teach us, it’s that the only thing that keeps the lights on is protocol.

  643. Loyalty is so totally one-way

    Trump has instructed aides not to pay Giuliani’s legal fees, two officials said, and has demanded that he personally approve any reimbursements for the expenses Giuliani incurred while traveling on the president’s behalf to challenge election results in key states. They said Trump has privately expressed concern with some of Giuliani’s moves and did not appreciate a demand from Giuliani for $20,000 a day in fees for his work attempting to overturn the election.

    But stiffing those who work for him is definitely a point of constancy.
    And a senior administration official says “He is feeling increasingly alone and isolated and frustrated. One of the metrics by which he’s often judged any number of things is: ‘Who’s out there saying good things about me or fighting on my behalf?’ And he never seemed to think there were enough people doing it strongly enough.” Now, in the final days, this official said, “it’s like death by a thousand cuts.”
    Aaaaaw….

  644. Loyalty is so totally one-way

    Trump has instructed aides not to pay Giuliani’s legal fees, two officials said, and has demanded that he personally approve any reimbursements for the expenses Giuliani incurred while traveling on the president’s behalf to challenge election results in key states. They said Trump has privately expressed concern with some of Giuliani’s moves and did not appreciate a demand from Giuliani for $20,000 a day in fees for his work attempting to overturn the election.

    But stiffing those who work for him is definitely a point of constancy.
    And a senior administration official says “He is feeling increasingly alone and isolated and frustrated. One of the metrics by which he’s often judged any number of things is: ‘Who’s out there saying good things about me or fighting on my behalf?’ And he never seemed to think there were enough people doing it strongly enough.” Now, in the final days, this official said, “it’s like death by a thousand cuts.”
    Aaaaaw….

  645. As long as there are channels being left open and people who have freedom to air their grievances, we will have the potential for this violence as a persistent feature. And as long as the aggrieved can continue to recruit and radicalize using that, we will have a supply of would-be insurgents.
    Well, yes and no.

    Of course, those who really want certain content can always just go somewhere else to get it. But deplatforming can still drain the bad actors’ audience and change the behavior of the subscribers left behind. A study posted on the prepublication site arXiv last fall analyzed what happened after Reddit banned r/TheDonald and r/Incels, both of which spurred users to create off-platform communities. The researchers found that, compared to the subreddits, “there was a substantial decrease in the number of newcomers, active users, and posts” on the new sites, but they also noted that they found “an increase in the relative activity for both communities: per user, substantially more daily posts occurred on the fringe websites.”
    A similar pattern was seen after Facebook banned high-profile members of anti-vaccination groups such as Larry Cook, whose page had some 195,000 followers on Facebook. He moved to Parler where, before it was shut down, he had 14,000 [less than 10% as many] followers. [Emphasis added]

    So, not a total solution. But still, a significant improvement.

  646. As long as there are channels being left open and people who have freedom to air their grievances, we will have the potential for this violence as a persistent feature. And as long as the aggrieved can continue to recruit and radicalize using that, we will have a supply of would-be insurgents.
    Well, yes and no.

    Of course, those who really want certain content can always just go somewhere else to get it. But deplatforming can still drain the bad actors’ audience and change the behavior of the subscribers left behind. A study posted on the prepublication site arXiv last fall analyzed what happened after Reddit banned r/TheDonald and r/Incels, both of which spurred users to create off-platform communities. The researchers found that, compared to the subreddits, “there was a substantial decrease in the number of newcomers, active users, and posts” on the new sites, but they also noted that they found “an increase in the relative activity for both communities: per user, substantially more daily posts occurred on the fringe websites.”
    A similar pattern was seen after Facebook banned high-profile members of anti-vaccination groups such as Larry Cook, whose page had some 195,000 followers on Facebook. He moved to Parler where, before it was shut down, he had 14,000 [less than 10% as many] followers. [Emphasis added]

    So, not a total solution. But still, a significant improvement.

  647. I’ve had some hushed, but instructive discussions with my Chinese students about deplatforming and information as well (coming from an information environment that gives the institution much more control). Just because fewer people visit and stay active does not necessarily mean that fewer engaged people get the information or are in the loop. Sometimes it just means that fewer people are visible and exposed.

  648. I’ve had some hushed, but instructive discussions with my Chinese students about deplatforming and information as well (coming from an information environment that gives the institution much more control). Just because fewer people visit and stay active does not necessarily mean that fewer engaged people get the information or are in the loop. Sometimes it just means that fewer people are visible and exposed.

  649. One thing that I’ve been reading is that the closing down of Parler and other similar steps are having the effect of blinding enforcement forces, which is ironic because it could make violence on the 20th worse because the groups that are planning to take action may still be planning to, but it becomes harder to track them perhaps.
    wj’s comment suggests that had this been done earlier, there might have been less chance. But imagine twitter shutting down Trump in mid december. It’s like I said earlier about taking steps to deal with the pandemic: Everything is an overreaction, until it isn’t.

  650. One thing that I’ve been reading is that the closing down of Parler and other similar steps are having the effect of blinding enforcement forces, which is ironic because it could make violence on the 20th worse because the groups that are planning to take action may still be planning to, but it becomes harder to track them perhaps.
    wj’s comment suggests that had this been done earlier, there might have been less chance. But imagine twitter shutting down Trump in mid december. It’s like I said earlier about taking steps to deal with the pandemic: Everything is an overreaction, until it isn’t.

  651. crossposted with nous. What you don’t realize is that Americans don’t have the attention spans of Chinese or indeed, any other country. That’s what makes us so great [/sarcasm]

  652. crossposted with nous. What you don’t realize is that Americans don’t have the attention spans of Chinese or indeed, any other country. That’s what makes us so great [/sarcasm]

  659. https://twitter.com/Cleavon_MD/status/1349500266773585925?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1349509183289266176%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es2_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com%2F2021%2F01%2Fa-riot-of-my-own
    https://www.balloon-juice.com/2021/01/14/late-night-insurrection-open-thread-gop-scaff-raff-bob-tail/
    Flying over deplorable filth America to overthrow the US Government, but looking good:
    https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2021/01/a-riot-of-my-own
    https://twitter.com/Cleavon_MD/status/1349509183289266176/photo/1

  660. https://twitter.com/Cleavon_MD/status/1349500266773585925?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1349509183289266176%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es2_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com%2F2021%2F01%2Fa-riot-of-my-own
    https://www.balloon-juice.com/2021/01/14/late-night-insurrection-open-thread-gop-scaff-raff-bob-tail/
    Flying over deplorable filth America to overthrow the US Government, but looking good:
    https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2021/01/a-riot-of-my-own
    https://twitter.com/Cleavon_MD/status/1349509183289266176/photo/1

  661. It took a long time for people to realize what so many in the Republican party “stood for,” including many in the Republican party. Now more people know. We have the benefit of having elected someone as President who stands for what many of us believe are American values. We have slight majorities in both houses of Congress.
    We need to fight these people as hard as we can with this – starting with prosecuting domestic terrorists, all of them, every single time. We can’t continue to whitewash fascism, because people need to know what it is they’re against. We have to fight the both-siders by holding the line with solidarity and constancy.
    We’re not going to win easily, and we’ll suffer setbacks (knowing that we’ve always had this fight), but we need to have hope and determination. We have to win. And we will win.

  662. It took a long time for people to realize what so many in the Republican party “stood for,” including many in the Republican party. Now more people know. We have the benefit of having elected someone as President who stands for what many of us believe are American values. We have slight majorities in both houses of Congress.
    We need to fight these people as hard as we can with this – starting with prosecuting domestic terrorists, all of them, every single time. We can’t continue to whitewash fascism, because people need to know what it is they’re against. We have to fight the both-siders by holding the line with solidarity and constancy.
    We’re not going to win easily, and we’ll suffer setbacks (knowing that we’ve always had this fight), but we need to have hope and determination. We have to win. And we will win.

  663. I remember being absolutely gobsmacked that there could be pro-torture commenters.
    Gobsmacked, horrified, appalled, repulsed… as if I’d come to debate an issue of politics and ethics, and stepped into someone’s private porn stash instead.
    I was horrified, not only because I thought being anti-torture was one of those unquestioned values we were supposed to have as civilized people/Americans/whatever, and not only because torture is an atrocity (and a war crime), but also because… it doesn’t even work at getting actionable intelligence.
    I remember people trying to repeat all this, over and over again, and the pro-torture commenters just… basically ignoring everything the anti-torturers said. Because the pro-torture commenters wanted so badly to believe torture was a good thing, or they just wanted torture to be a thing that “we” could do with impunity.
    This is so much the same dynamic. People who have glommed onto an idea that is not only wrong, not only an affront to the very idea of a representative democracy, not only deeply destructive to the very notion of a United States… but also doing so in service to the most appallingly unworthy object of devotion the body politic has ever coughed up.
    I think this is exactly right, like a great deal of CaseyL’s analysis. And her description of her reaction to the pro-torture apologists was also mine. I (obvious, out-and-proud atheist) even found myself telling a lovely, young Christian friend whom I had known since babyhood, when he made the “effective” torture case to me, that I thought he was endangering his immortal soul!

  664. I remember being absolutely gobsmacked that there could be pro-torture commenters.
    Gobsmacked, horrified, appalled, repulsed… as if I’d come to debate an issue of politics and ethics, and stepped into someone’s private porn stash instead.
    I was horrified, not only because I thought being anti-torture was one of those unquestioned values we were supposed to have as civilized people/Americans/whatever, and not only because torture is an atrocity (and a war crime), but also because… it doesn’t even work at getting actionable intelligence.
    I remember people trying to repeat all this, over and over again, and the pro-torture commenters just… basically ignoring everything the anti-torturers said. Because the pro-torture commenters wanted so badly to believe torture was a good thing, or they just wanted torture to be a thing that “we” could do with impunity.
    This is so much the same dynamic. People who have glommed onto an idea that is not only wrong, not only an affront to the very idea of a representative democracy, not only deeply destructive to the very notion of a United States… but also doing so in service to the most appallingly unworthy object of devotion the body politic has ever coughed up.
    I think this is exactly right, like a great deal of CaseyL’s analysis. And her description of her reaction to the pro-torture apologists was also mine. I (obvious, out-and-proud atheist) even found myself telling a lovely, young Christian friend whom I had known since babyhood, when he made the “effective” torture case to me, that I thought he was endangering his immortal soul!

  669. Even the police across the country doing the insurrectionist posting on social media?
    no worries, let ’em post. it’s how we’ll sort them out.

  670. Even the police across the country doing the insurrectionist posting on social media?
    no worries, let ’em post. it’s how we’ll sort them out.

  671. From lj’s link:

    The Capitol Police force is only 29% Black in a city that’s 46% Black. By contrast, as of 2018, 52% of Washington Metropolitan police officers were Black.

    The point being made, obviously, is that the Capitol Police force is disproportionately white as compared to the population of DC. But what struck me is that there could be such a level of racism in an organization where nearly 1 in 3 of the people in it are Black.
    I find that particularly disheartening. How do you work side by side with people on a daily basis and still fail to overcome your racial prejudices against them, at least the worst of those prejudices? I don’t expect that having a significant percentage of coworkers who are Black is going to make someone perfectly enlightened on issues of race, but I would think people would learn something (or more than it appears they have in the Capitol Police force).

  672. From lj’s link:

    The Capitol Police force is only 29% Black in a city that’s 46% Black. By contrast, as of 2018, 52% of Washington Metropolitan police officers were Black.

    The point being made, obviously, is that the Capitol Police force is disproportionately white as compared to the population of DC. But what struck me is that there could be such a level of racism in an organization where nearly 1 in 3 of the people in it are Black.
    I find that particularly disheartening. How do you work side by side with people on a daily basis and still fail to overcome your racial prejudices against them, at least the worst of those prejudices? I don’t expect that having a significant percentage of coworkers who are Black is going to make someone perfectly enlightened on issues of race, but I would think people would learn something (or more than it appears they have in the Capitol Police force).

  673. One thing that I’ve been reading is that the closing down of Parler and other similar steps are having the effect of blinding enforcement forces, …
    When regulations shut down Backpage and other adult classified ads, law enforcement lost a lot of its ability to track sex trafficking and underage sex work.

  674. One thing that I’ve been reading is that the closing down of Parler and other similar steps are having the effect of blinding enforcement forces, …
    When regulations shut down Backpage and other adult classified ads, law enforcement lost a lot of its ability to track sex trafficking and underage sex work.

  675. When regulations shut down Backpage and other adult classified ads…
    and… sex traffickers and underage sex workers had one less set of channels for sex trafficking and pimping minors.
    there is an upside and a downside to everything. there are very few, probably zero, things anybody can do that are of any consequence at all, that don’t have some attendant problems. there are ‘unintended consequences’ to doing nothing.
    My guess is that, net/net, we’re better off not having readily accessible channels available for sex trafficking. I could be wrong, but I’ll bet I’m not.
    I’m sure they all went somewhere else, and I’m sure whoever booted them off of Backpage et al are working on booting them off wherever they landed, or have done.
    The ‘regulations are bad’ knee-jerk thing is not really that helpful. What regulation? Why? What are the upsides, downsides, and costs?

  676. When regulations shut down Backpage and other adult classified ads…
    and… sex traffickers and underage sex workers had one less set of channels for sex trafficking and pimping minors.
    there is an upside and a downside to everything. there are very few, probably zero, things anybody can do that are of any consequence at all, that don’t have some attendant problems. there are ‘unintended consequences’ to doing nothing.
    My guess is that, net/net, we’re better off not having readily accessible channels available for sex trafficking. I could be wrong, but I’ll bet I’m not.
    I’m sure they all went somewhere else, and I’m sure whoever booted them off of Backpage et al are working on booting them off wherever they landed, or have done.
    The ‘regulations are bad’ knee-jerk thing is not really that helpful. What regulation? Why? What are the upsides, downsides, and costs?

  677. The ‘regulations are bad’ knee-jerk thing is not really that helpful.
    The “regulations are bad” thing isn’t a reasoned analysis. It’s a religious article of faith.
    Not to say you can’t recognize that some regulations are bad. Or counterproductive. I certainly do. But some evidence might be nice, when making that case in specific instances.

  678. The ‘regulations are bad’ knee-jerk thing is not really that helpful.
    The “regulations are bad” thing isn’t a reasoned analysis. It’s a religious article of faith.
    Not to say you can’t recognize that some regulations are bad. Or counterproductive. I certainly do. But some evidence might be nice, when making that case in specific instances.

  681. I know CharlesWT is our local libertarian, but he made a very narrow point about the similarity between two situations involving an easily monitored communications channel being shut down, making it harder for the authorities to get intel and evidence. Too much extrapolation from that, IMO.

  682. I know CharlesWT is our local libertarian, but he made a very narrow point about the similarity between two situations involving an easily monitored communications channel being shut down, making it harder for the authorities to get intel and evidence. Too much extrapolation from that, IMO.

  685. With the shutdown of Backpage, sex work has become more dangerous while reducing law enforcement’s ability to reduce underage sex work and trafficking.
    “Carl Ferrer, a previous vice president and CEO of Backpage under Lacey and Larkin who bought the company from them in 2015, even received a commendation from the Department of Justice for his help fighting sex trafficking. “Can’t do this without your help,” an FBI agent working juvenile exploitation cases wrote to Backpage staff in 2015—one of hundreds of positive comments the platform received from law enforcement officers. And since the site was seized in April, numerous local news reports have cited cops saying it’s now harder to find missing young people and to nab potential pimps.
    The disparity between rank-and-file police comments and those made by elected officials is stark. The former generally acknowledge that commercial sex—yes, sometimes involving minors and/or victims of abuse—will go on with or without digital tools to facilitate it. Shutting down Backpage didn’t even make a dent in the volume of online adult ads, according to a     Washington Post analysis. It simply dispersed them through a wider range of platforms. Yet politicians insist on casting classifieds websites as the biggest cause and a main hub of forced and underage prostitution. Sen. Kamala Harris (D–Calif.) has described Backpage as the world’s ‘top online brothel.'”
    The Backpage Scandal Isn’t What You Think: How indie media entrepreneurs James Larkin and Michael Lacey became the targets of a federal witchhunt.

  686. With the shutdown of Backpage, sex work has become more dangerous while reducing law enforcement’s ability to reduce underage sex work and trafficking.
    “Carl Ferrer, a previous vice president and CEO of Backpage under Lacey and Larkin who bought the company from them in 2015, even received a commendation from the Department of Justice for his help fighting sex trafficking. “Can’t do this without your help,” an FBI agent working juvenile exploitation cases wrote to Backpage staff in 2015—one of hundreds of positive comments the platform received from law enforcement officers. And since the site was seized in April, numerous local news reports have cited cops saying it’s now harder to find missing young people and to nab potential pimps.
    The disparity between rank-and-file police comments and those made by elected officials is stark. The former generally acknowledge that commercial sex—yes, sometimes involving minors and/or victims of abuse—will go on with or without digital tools to facilitate it. Shutting down Backpage didn’t even make a dent in the volume of online adult ads, according to a     Washington Post analysis. It simply dispersed them through a wider range of platforms. Yet politicians insist on casting classifieds websites as the biggest cause and a main hub of forced and underage prostitution. Sen. Kamala Harris (D–Calif.) has described Backpage as the world’s ‘top online brothel.'”
    The Backpage Scandal Isn’t What You Think: How indie media entrepreneurs James Larkin and Michael Lacey became the targets of a federal witchhunt.

  687. GftNC – Thank you for the compliment!
    I (obvious, out-and-proud atheist) even found myself telling a lovely, young Christian friend whom I had known since babyhood, when he made the “effective” torture case to me, that I thought he was endangering his immortal soul!
    Well, that’s COM 101: Try to reach people using language and concepts that are meaningful to them.
    I’ve given up on that, too. I just tell such people, if their deity is OK with genocide, torture, racism, misogyny, etc., “Then your God is a sociopathic sadist. Find a better God.”

  688. GftNC – Thank you for the compliment!
    I (obvious, out-and-proud atheist) even found myself telling a lovely, young Christian friend whom I had known since babyhood, when he made the “effective” torture case to me, that I thought he was endangering his immortal soul!
    Well, that’s COM 101: Try to reach people using language and concepts that are meaningful to them.
    I’ve given up on that, too. I just tell such people, if their deity is OK with genocide, torture, racism, misogyny, etc., “Then your God is a sociopathic sadist. Find a better God.”

  689. A newly elected Republican congresswoman has said she will be filing articles of impeachment against Joe Biden on his first day in office.
    Marjorie Taylor Greene, who attracted notoriety for being the first QAnon conspiracist elected to Congress, made the announcement via Twitter.
    “On January 21, 2021, I’ll be filing Articles of Impeachment against Joe Biden for abuse of power,” she wrote.

    hey Republicans? fix your fucking party, please?

  690. A newly elected Republican congresswoman has said she will be filing articles of impeachment against Joe Biden on his first day in office.
    Marjorie Taylor Greene, who attracted notoriety for being the first QAnon conspiracist elected to Congress, made the announcement via Twitter.
    “On January 21, 2021, I’ll be filing Articles of Impeachment against Joe Biden for abuse of power,” she wrote.

    hey Republicans? fix your fucking party, please?

  691. cleek – She can file any damn thing she wants to.
    Extremist MOC, on the state and national level, are notorious for filing bills and whatnot that are stupid, inflammatory, evil, and seditious. Many of them get some Twitter attention.
    But the filings go nowhere. Usually. Let’s see how many GOPsters sign on to MTG:QAnon’s efforts.

  692. cleek – She can file any damn thing she wants to.
    Extremist MOC, on the state and national level, are notorious for filing bills and whatnot that are stupid, inflammatory, evil, and seditious. Many of them get some Twitter attention.
    But the filings go nowhere. Usually. Let’s see how many GOPsters sign on to MTG:QAnon’s efforts.

  693. Gotta say that it’s impressive that Biden has “abused power” before he is actually IN power. Time travel, perhaps?

  694. Gotta say that it’s impressive that Biden has “abused power” before he is actually IN power. Time travel, perhaps?

  695. cleek – She can file any damn thing she wants to.
    of course she can.
    but wouldn’t it be nice if the GOP stopped sending sponge-brained lunatics to Congress?
    also: wwjs

  696. cleek – She can file any damn thing she wants to.
    of course she can.
    but wouldn’t it be nice if the GOP stopped sending sponge-brained lunatics to Congress?
    also: wwjs

  697. A newly elected Republican congresswoman has said she will be filing articles of impeachment against Joe Biden on his first day in office.
    Marjorie Taylor “Nostradamus” Greene

  698. A newly elected Republican congresswoman has said she will be filing articles of impeachment against Joe Biden on his first day in office.
    Marjorie Taylor “Nostradamus” Greene

  699. I remember being absolutely gobsmacked that there could be pro-torture commenters.
    I wasn’t gobsmacked – too jaded I guess.
    What struck me were the people who were fervently anti-torture, but still supported the wars of the time. It suddenly seemed as if killing people was A-OK but torture was the worst of all sins.

  700. I remember being absolutely gobsmacked that there could be pro-torture commenters.
    I wasn’t gobsmacked – too jaded I guess.
    What struck me were the people who were fervently anti-torture, but still supported the wars of the time. It suddenly seemed as if killing people was A-OK but torture was the worst of all sins.

  701. The point about a percentage of a workforce and side by side only works if the organization supports that. Otherwise, even 30% become tokens and when they point out issues, they are ostracized, which is what seems to be the case.
    Not directly related but
    https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emmanuelfelton/capitol-police-angry-congress-members-ignore-metal-detectors
    “I’m raging. I was involved in the fray and thankfully I wasn’t too severely injured, but I have a coworker who was hit in the back with a pipe, he’s been out since Wednesday,” the third officer said. “I have another coworker that was knocked out cold. We just had an officer commit suicide, and [Officer Brian] Sicknick died. All of this stuff happened and if [management] would have taken appropriate actions, I think that it would have mitigated the situation exponentially.”
    If this had been a BLM protest, we would have gotten a full list of every injury and incident and articles like this
    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/08/16/us/portland-protests/index.html

  702. The point about a percentage of a workforce and side by side only works if the organization supports that. Otherwise, even 30% become tokens and when they point out issues, they are ostracized, which is what seems to be the case.
    Not directly related but
    https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emmanuelfelton/capitol-police-angry-congress-members-ignore-metal-detectors
    “I’m raging. I was involved in the fray and thankfully I wasn’t too severely injured, but I have a coworker who was hit in the back with a pipe, he’s been out since Wednesday,” the third officer said. “I have another coworker that was knocked out cold. We just had an officer commit suicide, and [Officer Brian] Sicknick died. All of this stuff happened and if [management] would have taken appropriate actions, I think that it would have mitigated the situation exponentially.”
    If this had been a BLM protest, we would have gotten a full list of every injury and incident and articles like this
    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/08/16/us/portland-protests/index.html

  703. Extremist MOC, on the state and national level, are notorious for filing bills and whatnot that are stupid, inflammatory, evil, and seditious.
    When I worked for my state legislature this wasn’t particularly a problem. I attribute it to two parts of the procedure: (1) members were allowed to introduce no more than five bills in a session, and (2) all bills had to be reviewed by Legislative Legal Services before they could be introduced. The first forced members to ask themselves the question, “Is the publicity I’ll get worth using a fifth of my bill limit?” The second meant that, while they could still introduce the bill, they got a formal note from LLS that might say, “Our legal opinion is that the bill as written is seditious,” with the case cites.
    The flip side of the limit on the number of bills is the guarantee that every bill introduced (within certain time limits) will be heard, at least in committee, and the sponsor will have an opportunity to defend it, present witnesses, etc.

  704. Extremist MOC, on the state and national level, are notorious for filing bills and whatnot that are stupid, inflammatory, evil, and seditious.
    When I worked for my state legislature this wasn’t particularly a problem. I attribute it to two parts of the procedure: (1) members were allowed to introduce no more than five bills in a session, and (2) all bills had to be reviewed by Legislative Legal Services before they could be introduced. The first forced members to ask themselves the question, “Is the publicity I’ll get worth using a fifth of my bill limit?” The second meant that, while they could still introduce the bill, they got a formal note from LLS that might say, “Our legal opinion is that the bill as written is seditious,” with the case cites.
    The flip side of the limit on the number of bills is the guarantee that every bill introduced (within certain time limits) will be heard, at least in committee, and the sponsor will have an opportunity to defend it, present witnesses, etc.

  705. Michael Cain – I don’t know if similar procedures apply at the federal House. I think every proposed bill needs at least one co-sponsor, not necessarily from the other Party.

  706. Michael Cain – I don’t know if similar procedures apply at the federal House. I think every proposed bill needs at least one co-sponsor, not necessarily from the other Party.

  707. Rep. Chip Roy (R-Tex.):

    “The president of the United States deserves universal condemnation for what was clearly, in my opinion, impeachable conduct: Pressuring the vice president to violate his oath. Unfortunately, my Democratic colleagues drafted articles that I believe are flawed and unsupportable, focusing on the legal terms of incitement and insurrection.

    One has to wonder if he will offer up a Bill of Impeachment on the count he mentions.

  708. Rep. Chip Roy (R-Tex.):

    “The president of the United States deserves universal condemnation for what was clearly, in my opinion, impeachable conduct: Pressuring the vice president to violate his oath. Unfortunately, my Democratic colleagues drafted articles that I believe are flawed and unsupportable, focusing on the legal terms of incitement and insurrection.

    One has to wonder if he will offer up a Bill of Impeachment on the count he mentions.

  709. I think every proposed bill needs at least one co-sponsor, not necessarily from the other Party.
    Every bill will eventually need a cosponsor from the other chamber, as only a Representative can introduce a bill in the House and a Senator in the Senate. Once properly introduced, though, bills take on a life of their own. Most legislative bodies in the US allow some form of “strike below” amendment. That is, the amendment reads, “On page 1, strike everything below <usually the title> and substitute…” Congress is even worse, they allow striking the title.
    My state legislature’s rules don’t allow striking the title, and require that the bill’s content have something to do with the title. Leg Legal Services always recommends to members that their bills’ titles be as narrow as possible to avoid hijacking. One year a member disregarded that and used the title “Regarding Child Welfare.” By the time the bill was eventually passed, three different committees had used the loose title to strike the body of the bill and replace it with their own particular child welfare hobby horse.
    Working for the legislature for three sessions was such an education :^)

  710. I think every proposed bill needs at least one co-sponsor, not necessarily from the other Party.
    Every bill will eventually need a cosponsor from the other chamber, as only a Representative can introduce a bill in the House and a Senator in the Senate. Once properly introduced, though, bills take on a life of their own. Most legislative bodies in the US allow some form of “strike below” amendment. That is, the amendment reads, “On page 1, strike everything below <usually the title> and substitute…” Congress is even worse, they allow striking the title.
    My state legislature’s rules don’t allow striking the title, and require that the bill’s content have something to do with the title. Leg Legal Services always recommends to members that their bills’ titles be as narrow as possible to avoid hijacking. One year a member disregarded that and used the title “Regarding Child Welfare.” By the time the bill was eventually passed, three different committees had used the loose title to strike the body of the bill and replace it with their own particular child welfare hobby horse.
    Working for the legislature for three sessions was such an education :^)

  711. Working for the legislature for three sessions was such an education :^)
    I really envy you that. I would love to work, to have worked, at my state lege. (I live too far away.)
    Thank you for these stories.

  712. Working for the legislature for three sessions was such an education :^)
    I really envy you that. I would love to work, to have worked, at my state lege. (I live too far away.)
    Thank you for these stories.

  713. I remember being absolutely gobsmacked that there could be pro-torture commenters.
    still waiting for Hannity to get himself waterboarded like he said he’d do, since it’s no big deal.

  714. I remember being absolutely gobsmacked that there could be pro-torture commenters.
    still waiting for Hannity to get himself waterboarded like he said he’d do, since it’s no big deal.

  715. I really envy you that. I would love to work, to have worked, at my state lege. (I live too far away.)
    I couldn’t do it long term, the sessions proper are far too stressful. One of the long-term staffers had a t-shirt she occasionally wore to the office on Saturdays or Sundays during the session — no dress code if the office wasn’t officially open — that had “You don’t have to be insane to work here, but it helps” in black, with a big red X through it and handwritten-looking red text underneath that said “You have to be insane.”

  716. I really envy you that. I would love to work, to have worked, at my state lege. (I live too far away.)
    I couldn’t do it long term, the sessions proper are far too stressful. One of the long-term staffers had a t-shirt she occasionally wore to the office on Saturdays or Sundays during the session — no dress code if the office wasn’t officially open — that had “You don’t have to be insane to work here, but it helps” in black, with a big red X through it and handwritten-looking red text underneath that said “You have to be insane.”

  719. could anything be more perfect?

    Donald Trump has fallen out with his personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, and is refusing to pay the former New York mayor’s legal bills, it was reported, with the president feeling abandoned and frustrated during his last days in office.
    Giuliani played a key role in Trump’s failed attempts to overturn the results of November’s presidential election through the courts. The lawyer mounted numerous spurious legal challenges, travelling to swing states won by Joe Biden, and spread false claims the vote was rigged.
    According to the Washington Post, relations between Trump and Giuliani have dramatically cooled. Trump has instructed his aides not to pay Giuliani’s outstanding fees. The president is reportedly offended by Giuliani’s demand for $20,000 a day – a figure the lawyer denies, but which is apparently in writing. White House officials have even been told not to put through any of Giuliani’s calls.

  720. could anything be more perfect?

    Donald Trump has fallen out with his personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, and is refusing to pay the former New York mayor’s legal bills, it was reported, with the president feeling abandoned and frustrated during his last days in office.
    Giuliani played a key role in Trump’s failed attempts to overturn the results of November’s presidential election through the courts. The lawyer mounted numerous spurious legal challenges, travelling to swing states won by Joe Biden, and spread false claims the vote was rigged.
    According to the Washington Post, relations between Trump and Giuliani have dramatically cooled. Trump has instructed his aides not to pay Giuliani’s outstanding fees. The president is reportedly offended by Giuliani’s demand for $20,000 a day – a figure the lawyer denies, but which is apparently in writing. White House officials have even been told not to put through any of Giuliani’s calls.

  721. https://www.balloon-juice.com/2021/01/14/accountability-3/
    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/13/us/politics/lauren-boebert-republican.html
    https://twitter.com/hashtag/CapitolCoup?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
    I wonder if I visit I Boebert’s armed saloon in Rifle if her husband will show up, in her insurrectionary absence, and flash his christian junk and threaten me so I can go all conservative on his flyover pigf*cker republican ass.
    We’re taking your guns, conservatives and republicans and libertarians.
    And we’re keeping ours.
    Please fuck with me.
    More:
    https://www.denverpost.com/2020/08/27/lauren-boebert-arrests-colorado-3rd-mitsch-bush/
    https://www.dailydot.com/debug/jayson-boebert-indecent-exposure-arrest/
    Both sides gotta do.

  722. https://www.balloon-juice.com/2021/01/14/accountability-3/
    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/13/us/politics/lauren-boebert-republican.html
    https://twitter.com/hashtag/CapitolCoup?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
    I wonder if I visit I Boebert’s armed saloon in Rifle if her husband will show up, in her insurrectionary absence, and flash his christian junk and threaten me so I can go all conservative on his flyover pigf*cker republican ass.
    We’re taking your guns, conservatives and republicans and libertarians.
    And we’re keeping ours.
    Please fuck with me.
    More:
    https://www.denverpost.com/2020/08/27/lauren-boebert-arrests-colorado-3rd-mitsch-bush/
    https://www.dailydot.com/debug/jayson-boebert-indecent-exposure-arrest/
    Both sides gotta do.

  723. Fake Christians Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Barrett all nominated by a twice impeached inciter of murder and violence against their government and voted into their posts by insurrectionist, seditious killers.
    All three knew the quality of their sponsorship.
    They must be impeached.
    They must leave now.
    Get out.

  724. Fake Christians Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Barrett all nominated by a twice impeached inciter of murder and violence against their government and voted into their posts by insurrectionist, seditious killers.
    All three knew the quality of their sponsorship.
    They must be impeached.
    They must leave now.
    Get out.

  725. They must be impeached.
    They must leave now.
    I have no use for any of them. And think that the sooner they are off the Court the better. That said, if you want to impeach them you have to have grounds for doing so. Beyond disliking their delusional views of the Constitution.

  726. They must be impeached.
    They must leave now.
    I have no use for any of them. And think that the sooner they are off the Court the better. That said, if you want to impeach them you have to have grounds for doing so. Beyond disliking their delusional views of the Constitution.

  727. “That said, if you want to impeach them you have to have grounds for doing so.”
    You’ll notice I said nothing about their views.
    Their nominations and who put them where they are were and are illegitimate.
    Fear not, nothing will change.

  728. “That said, if you want to impeach them you have to have grounds for doing so.”
    You’ll notice I said nothing about their views.
    Their nominations and who put them where they are were and are illegitimate.
    Fear not, nothing will change.

  729. Their nominations and who put them where they are were and are illegitimate.
    Not sure those would be grounds. As I recall (IANAL) the valid grounds are “high crimes and misdemeanors”.
    Also not sure you can make much of a case that their nominations are “illegitimate”. (It’s not like the “acting” cabinet members — for those there are laws about how long they can serve without Senate approval.) Care to unpack that a little?

  730. Their nominations and who put them where they are were and are illegitimate.
    Not sure those would be grounds. As I recall (IANAL) the valid grounds are “high crimes and misdemeanors”.
    Also not sure you can make much of a case that their nominations are “illegitimate”. (It’s not like the “acting” cabinet members — for those there are laws about how long they can serve without Senate approval.) Care to unpack that a little?

  731. The normative rule of law book we do it by has been burned during the past four years by the conservative movement.
    Precedent is moot.
    The Constitution says nothing, and even if it is once again discovered to be relevant to current times, no one hears and it’s too late.
    The conservative movement, by their words and actions, has released the American citizenry from all adherence to what came before.
    It’s not going to be good.
    When Boebert and company unpack their handbags and pants pockets of their weapons after refusing to comply with metal detector security procedures in the killing zone known as the Capitol, I’ll consider unpacking too.

  732. The normative rule of law book we do it by has been burned during the past four years by the conservative movement.
    Precedent is moot.
    The Constitution says nothing, and even if it is once again discovered to be relevant to current times, no one hears and it’s too late.
    The conservative movement, by their words and actions, has released the American citizenry from all adherence to what came before.
    It’s not going to be good.
    When Boebert and company unpack their handbags and pants pockets of their weapons after refusing to comply with metal detector security procedures in the killing zone known as the Capitol, I’ll consider unpacking too.

  733. Can we take a moment to salute the unique courage of Lindsey Graham?
    Graham’s website: “Lindsey Graham is a fighter who doesn’t back down from a challenge.”
    Sherrod Brown: “I heard when the 75 senators were confined in a room with about 75 staff people, Lindsey Graham with his mask off started screaming at one of the officers — I think it was one of the captains — saying, ‘How come you didn’t protect us? It’s doing your job,’”
    Graham, 7th January: “Yesterday they could have blown the building up. They could have killed us all”.
    Graham, 7th January: “the president needs to understand that his actions were the problem not the solution,”
    Graham, 13th January: “It is now time for President-elect Biden to rise to the occasion and instruct his party to call off post-presidential impeachment proceedings.”

  734. Can we take a moment to salute the unique courage of Lindsey Graham?
    Graham’s website: “Lindsey Graham is a fighter who doesn’t back down from a challenge.”
    Sherrod Brown: “I heard when the 75 senators were confined in a room with about 75 staff people, Lindsey Graham with his mask off started screaming at one of the officers — I think it was one of the captains — saying, ‘How come you didn’t protect us? It’s doing your job,’”
    Graham, 7th January: “Yesterday they could have blown the building up. They could have killed us all”.
    Graham, 7th January: “the president needs to understand that his actions were the problem not the solution,”
    Graham, 13th January: “It is now time for President-elect Biden to rise to the occasion and instruct his party to call off post-presidential impeachment proceedings.”

  735. Bed.
    Sleep in it if you can, conservatives.
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/gop-rep-who-backed-impeachment-is-purchasing-body-armor-amid-death-threats
    Perchance to dream.
    Conservative voters, all registered republicans, all registered libertarians, must be assessed a surcharge on their federal taxes … do the same at the state and local levels …. to pay for world-class security, body armor, armed body guards, home and office security and surveillance and property hardening for Democratic and liberals politicians across the country and every single public servant/government servant and their families, the millions of them, whom the contemptible conservative movement and republican party threatens with malignant violence and has done for decades.
    These better late than never on third thought republicans who have set their and our beds on fire are on their own.
    You republicans and libertarians will pay for every cent of it. And you’ll like it. You will be required to say thank you when you hand over the funds.
    Trump and family will be assessed at a 100% marginal rate from the first dollar they manage to steal in the future and they will pay in perpetuity.
    Registered Democratic Party voters will not pay a cent of what is required.
    I don’t expect to receive a bill.
    Look what you people have done.

  736. Bed.
    Sleep in it if you can, conservatives.
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/gop-rep-who-backed-impeachment-is-purchasing-body-armor-amid-death-threats
    Perchance to dream.
    Conservative voters, all registered republicans, all registered libertarians, must be assessed a surcharge on their federal taxes … do the same at the state and local levels …. to pay for world-class security, body armor, armed body guards, home and office security and surveillance and property hardening for Democratic and liberals politicians across the country and every single public servant/government servant and their families, the millions of them, whom the contemptible conservative movement and republican party threatens with malignant violence and has done for decades.
    These better late than never on third thought republicans who have set their and our beds on fire are on their own.
    You republicans and libertarians will pay for every cent of it. And you’ll like it. You will be required to say thank you when you hand over the funds.
    Trump and family will be assessed at a 100% marginal rate from the first dollar they manage to steal in the future and they will pay in perpetuity.
    Registered Democratic Party voters will not pay a cent of what is required.
    I don’t expect to receive a bill.
    Look what you people have done.

  737. My God, regarding Graham’s latest self anointed victimhood, we’re ALWAYS asked to rise to the high road.
    No more.
    The conservative movement is on the low road to a savage demise and we, the other side, are coming for them.
    Let’s finally learn what happens when both sides truly do it.

  738. My God, regarding Graham’s latest self anointed victimhood, we’re ALWAYS asked to rise to the high road.
    No more.
    The conservative movement is on the low road to a savage demise and we, the other side, are coming for them.
    Let’s finally learn what happens when both sides truly do it.

  739. Trump and family will be assessed at a 100% marginal rate from the first dollar they manage to steal in the future and they will pay in perpetuity.
    At last count, Trump has over $400 million in debt coming due this year. Personally guaranteed by him, meaning he can’t just let some company go bankrupt on it. And every bank in sight is refusing to do business with him.
    So, unless Putin or one of his other foreign friends (Kim? Ha!) will roll over his loans, everything he owns can be sold to pay off his debts. Guess he’s going to be on welfare this time next year.

  740. Trump and family will be assessed at a 100% marginal rate from the first dollar they manage to steal in the future and they will pay in perpetuity.
    At last count, Trump has over $400 million in debt coming due this year. Personally guaranteed by him, meaning he can’t just let some company go bankrupt on it. And every bank in sight is refusing to do business with him.
    So, unless Putin or one of his other foreign friends (Kim? Ha!) will roll over his loans, everything he owns can be sold to pay off his debts. Guess he’s going to be on welfare this time next year.

  741. Once again, we are underestimating trump.
    No one in the normative world will collect.
    All of us are Guiliani and the dry-wallers in Atlantic City and the immigrant domestic staff at Mar-a-Lago.
    Whatever small print we think small, trump has smaller.
    Now, if he owes to Mafia, Russian or otherwise, they’ll collect in kind, because the rest of us have our hands tied by civilization.
    I don’t think a guy can tweet with his severed hands and feet in cement from the bottom of the East River, especially after a pass thru the wood chipper.
    I would suggest those debts be discharged by getting rid of the Trump and Bush tax cuts for Republicans and conservatives only, in arrears, but the proceeds go to the Federal Treasury.
    Deutsche Bank is on its own.

  742. Once again, we are underestimating trump.
    No one in the normative world will collect.
    All of us are Guiliani and the dry-wallers in Atlantic City and the immigrant domestic staff at Mar-a-Lago.
    Whatever small print we think small, trump has smaller.
    Now, if he owes to Mafia, Russian or otherwise, they’ll collect in kind, because the rest of us have our hands tied by civilization.
    I don’t think a guy can tweet with his severed hands and feet in cement from the bottom of the East River, especially after a pass thru the wood chipper.
    I would suggest those debts be discharged by getting rid of the Trump and Bush tax cuts for Republicans and conservatives only, in arrears, but the proceeds go to the Federal Treasury.
    Deutsche Bank is on its own.

  751. Biden has announced a big recovery plan….very good stuff!
    Just read this, and I am disposed to wait before delivering the impeachment charge to the Senate. Assuming there are no more big arson attempts, it allows us to concentrate of “getting on with it”; the timing of the trial will be under the control of the Democrats, not McConnell; there is much more to be revealed about the events of Jan. 6.
    So what do you think? This fire breather is willing to give it a wait. More time to appropriate funds for the blindfold and last smoke.

  752. Biden has announced a big recovery plan….very good stuff!
    Just read this, and I am disposed to wait before delivering the impeachment charge to the Senate. Assuming there are no more big arson attempts, it allows us to concentrate of “getting on with it”; the timing of the trial will be under the control of the Democrats, not McConnell; there is much more to be revealed about the events of Jan. 6.
    So what do you think? This fire breather is willing to give it a wait. More time to appropriate funds for the blindfold and last smoke.

  753. Deutsche Bank is on its own.
    Deutsche Bank has already cut him off. No new business with Trump.
    That said, I won’t be surprised if he finds a way to stick somebody else with the bill.

  754. Deutsche Bank is on its own.
    Deutsche Bank has already cut him off. No new business with Trump.
    That said, I won’t be surprised if he finds a way to stick somebody else with the bill.

  755. That said, I won’t be surprised if he finds a way to stick somebody else with the bill.
    No question he’ll try. And he has a lifetime of experience with doing so. But this time, he’s operating under a spotlight. Which may cramp his style a tad bit.

  756. That said, I won’t be surprised if he finds a way to stick somebody else with the bill.
    No question he’ll try. And he has a lifetime of experience with doing so. But this time, he’s operating under a spotlight. Which may cramp his style a tad bit.

  757. Sore losers are a real pain

    The last time a presidential transition began during a national emergency — in 2008 amid the Great Recession — the outgoing Bush administration set aside partisanship to work closely with incoming Obama officials on how to deal with the economic collapse.
    “Everyone was completely responsive to any question,” said Lawrence Summers, director of the National Economic Council under President Barack Obama. “They talked to us about major decisions.”
    That smooth handoff is in stark contrast to what is happening now as President-elect Joe Biden prepares to assume power during a double-barreled crisis involving a lethal virus and its economic fallout that experts say demands close cooperation. Instead, as the coronavirus overwhelms U.S. hospitals and kills more than 3,300 people a day on average, the Trump administration has balked at providing access to information and failed to consult with its successors, including about distributing the vaccines that offer the greatest hope of emerging from the pandemic.

    Thank heavens for the “deep state”!

    Despite the challenges, Biden and his team have scooped up extensive information about coronavirus vaccine production and distribution from long-standing contacts in pharmaceutical companies and federal agencies. And they have gotten information through back channels from career staff working “off the clock” and using personal email accounts.

    “Back channels” and “personal email accounts”??? Cue the hysterical calls for an investigation! (Good thing they aren’t in a position to waste time and tax dollars on it.)

  758. Sore losers are a real pain

    The last time a presidential transition began during a national emergency — in 2008 amid the Great Recession — the outgoing Bush administration set aside partisanship to work closely with incoming Obama officials on how to deal with the economic collapse.
    “Everyone was completely responsive to any question,” said Lawrence Summers, director of the National Economic Council under President Barack Obama. “They talked to us about major decisions.”
    That smooth handoff is in stark contrast to what is happening now as President-elect Joe Biden prepares to assume power during a double-barreled crisis involving a lethal virus and its economic fallout that experts say demands close cooperation. Instead, as the coronavirus overwhelms U.S. hospitals and kills more than 3,300 people a day on average, the Trump administration has balked at providing access to information and failed to consult with its successors, including about distributing the vaccines that offer the greatest hope of emerging from the pandemic.

    Thank heavens for the “deep state”!

    Despite the challenges, Biden and his team have scooped up extensive information about coronavirus vaccine production and distribution from long-standing contacts in pharmaceutical companies and federal agencies. And they have gotten information through back channels from career staff working “off the clock” and using personal email accounts.

    “Back channels” and “personal email accounts”??? Cue the hysterical calls for an investigation! (Good thing they aren’t in a position to waste time and tax dollars on it.)

  759. This is the kind of thing that just depresses the hell out of me.
    Dude’s 55, married, three kids, retired FD, no priors, clean record, no known or apparent association with any extreme right-wing organization.
    He got caught up and threw a fire extinguisher at some cops. Not the guy who died, some other cops, so at least he’s not culpable for murder.
    But it’s quite possible this guy’s life is FUBAR. He is now liable for assaulting Capitol cops, in the context of an assault on Congress.
    He’s not likely to get a pass.
    All to show his support for the most despicable individual ever to hold the office of POTUS, by my reckoning.
    Trump is like the Midas of shit. Anything he touches, anything that touches him, turns to shit.

  760. This is the kind of thing that just depresses the hell out of me.
    Dude’s 55, married, three kids, retired FD, no priors, clean record, no known or apparent association with any extreme right-wing organization.
    He got caught up and threw a fire extinguisher at some cops. Not the guy who died, some other cops, so at least he’s not culpable for murder.
    But it’s quite possible this guy’s life is FUBAR. He is now liable for assaulting Capitol cops, in the context of an assault on Congress.
    He’s not likely to get a pass.
    All to show his support for the most despicable individual ever to hold the office of POTUS, by my reckoning.
    Trump is like the Midas of shit. Anything he touches, anything that touches him, turns to shit.

  761. wj – The GOP will surely try. Maybe this time their efforts won’t be amplified on TV talk shows with pundits who nod along like dashboard doggies with whatever bullshit they spray.
    But, hey! Access journalism, baby! Pundits have spent a lot of time building up their (virtual) Rolodexes! Can’t expect them to Chuck(Todd) it all and start over, can we?

  762. wj – The GOP will surely try. Maybe this time their efforts won’t be amplified on TV talk shows with pundits who nod along like dashboard doggies with whatever bullshit they spray.
    But, hey! Access journalism, baby! Pundits have spent a lot of time building up their (virtual) Rolodexes! Can’t expect them to Chuck(Todd) it all and start over, can we?

  765. That WaPo article made me physically ill.
    And the vast majority of the GOP is defending the perpetrators, not to mention the POS President they were rioting on behalf of.
    We are so very lucky the cops managed to get the criminal scum out of the building. Each and every one who fought the insurrectionists should get a commendation, medal, something.
    And for the cops, firefighters, and military personnel who were among the rioters… I can’t say what I want to have happen to them. I don’t even like *thinking* what I want to have happen to them.

  766. That WaPo article made me physically ill.
    And the vast majority of the GOP is defending the perpetrators, not to mention the POS President they were rioting on behalf of.
    We are so very lucky the cops managed to get the criminal scum out of the building. Each and every one who fought the insurrectionists should get a commendation, medal, something.
    And for the cops, firefighters, and military personnel who were among the rioters… I can’t say what I want to have happen to them. I don’t even like *thinking* what I want to have happen to them.

  769. Lindsay Graham, some time ago: “If we nominate Trump, we will get destroyed. And we will deserve it.”
    Now, maskless, the superspreading murderer, wetting his big girl pants: ‘Lindsey Graham started screaming at one of the officers, I think it was one of the Captains, saying “How come you didn’t protect us? It’s your job!”
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/01/18/as-told-to-the-pelosi-staffer-keith-stern-on-the-breach-of-the-capitol
    https://digbysblog.net/2021/01/america-2021/

  770. Lindsay Graham, some time ago: “If we nominate Trump, we will get destroyed. And we will deserve it.”
    Now, maskless, the superspreading murderer, wetting his big girl pants: ‘Lindsey Graham started screaming at one of the officers, I think it was one of the Captains, saying “How come you didn’t protect us? It’s your job!”
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/01/18/as-told-to-the-pelosi-staffer-keith-stern-on-the-breach-of-the-capitol
    https://digbysblog.net/2021/01/america-2021/

  771. May be of interest
    https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7vqew/the-hacker-who-archived-parler-explains-how-she-did-it-and-what-comes-next
    If you don’t know any anarcho-socialists, well…
    While donk_enby didn’t archive this for the explicit purpose of helping law enforcement (she considers herself an anarcho-socialist and said the data would have utility for those leading crowd-sourced identification efforts), she acknowledges they may find it useful.
    My approval isn’t based on a particular label that a person chooses, but in this case, yay anarcho-socialists!

  772. May be of interest
    https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7vqew/the-hacker-who-archived-parler-explains-how-she-did-it-and-what-comes-next
    If you don’t know any anarcho-socialists, well…
    While donk_enby didn’t archive this for the explicit purpose of helping law enforcement (she considers herself an anarcho-socialist and said the data would have utility for those leading crowd-sourced identification efforts), she acknowledges they may find it useful.
    My approval isn’t based on a particular label that a person chooses, but in this case, yay anarcho-socialists!

  773. Apropos to what I said earlier, about the cops who were among the insurrectionists… I’ve just now wondered how many of them are currently employed, and were involved in brutalizing demonstrators during the BLM protests over the summer.

  774. Apropos to what I said earlier, about the cops who were among the insurrectionists… I’ve just now wondered how many of them are currently employed, and were involved in brutalizing demonstrators during the BLM protests over the summer.

  777. I’m impressed with the incoming administration’s start – though almost anything would be a improvement on Trump in this respect.
    It’s going to be an effort. But (after next Wednesday) we are going to need to make an effort evaluate the new administration on its actual merits. Even though it will constantly be tempting to compare it to the past one, that’s way too low a bar to be meaningful.
    Comparing Biden’s administration to an average (or any combination) of the pre-Trump administrations will tell us a lot more about how well they are actually doing.

  778. I’m impressed with the incoming administration’s start – though almost anything would be a improvement on Trump in this respect.
    It’s going to be an effort. But (after next Wednesday) we are going to need to make an effort evaluate the new administration on its actual merits. Even though it will constantly be tempting to compare it to the past one, that’s way too low a bar to be meaningful.
    Comparing Biden’s administration to an average (or any combination) of the pre-Trump administrations will tell us a lot more about how well they are actually doing.

  781. Since the Republican Party has lost interest in competence as a criterion for selecting its candidates, we can expect every incoming Democratic Party administration to be facing a crisis.

  782. Since the Republican Party has lost interest in competence as a criterion for selecting its candidates, we can expect every incoming Democratic Party administration to be facing a crisis.

  787. I’ve just now wondered how many of them are currently employed, and were involved in brutalizing demonstrators during the BLM protests over the summer.
    Thus people raising bail and money for legal fees for “rioters.” Of course none of the cops would arrest anyone on bogus charges, so anyone arrested for rioting MUST be a rioter and not a mere non-criminal protester undeserving of arrest or charges.

  788. I’ve just now wondered how many of them are currently employed, and were involved in brutalizing demonstrators during the BLM protests over the summer.
    Thus people raising bail and money for legal fees for “rioters.” Of course none of the cops would arrest anyone on bogus charges, so anyone arrested for rioting MUST be a rioter and not a mere non-criminal protester undeserving of arrest or charges.

  789. This “attorney” said: ‘the Jonestown cult members who committed mass suicide at their settlement in Guyana in 1978: “You know the only thing different here? There’s no Kool-Aid.”’
    The only what?
    https://jonestown.sdsu.edu/?page_id=35332
    Children, 304 of them, which the attorney must think we are as well, no doubt to be poisoned soon as well.
    Many of the parents, too, also murdered, were not provided an ingredient list of what was in the KoolAid, Jones and lieutenants being libertarian republicans who frowned on FDA labeling over-regulation.
    It was what was in the Kool-Aid, not the festive fizzy drink itself, that murdered the victims.
    Trump is a murderer.
    Talk of his candidacy in 2024 is, I don’t know, like talk about reopening Jurassic Park or a second attempt to contact the Alien and bring back a sample to see what happens
    Democrats need a Shaman.
    How could we overlook that concept?
    America and shit become one.

  790. This “attorney” said: ‘the Jonestown cult members who committed mass suicide at their settlement in Guyana in 1978: “You know the only thing different here? There’s no Kool-Aid.”’
    The only what?
    https://jonestown.sdsu.edu/?page_id=35332
    Children, 304 of them, which the attorney must think we are as well, no doubt to be poisoned soon as well.
    Many of the parents, too, also murdered, were not provided an ingredient list of what was in the KoolAid, Jones and lieutenants being libertarian republicans who frowned on FDA labeling over-regulation.
    It was what was in the Kool-Aid, not the festive fizzy drink itself, that murdered the victims.
    Trump is a murderer.
    Talk of his candidacy in 2024 is, I don’t know, like talk about reopening Jurassic Park or a second attempt to contact the Alien and bring back a sample to see what happens
    Democrats need a Shaman.
    How could we overlook that concept?
    America and shit become one.

  791. Turns out that some/many/most of the rioters took their cell phones into the Capitol with them resulting in records of their locations to be perused by authorities.

  792. Turns out that some/many/most of the rioters took their cell phones into the Capitol with them resulting in records of their locations to be perused by authorities.

  795. Since the Republican Party has lost interest in competence as a criterion for selecting its candidates, we can expect every incoming Democratic Party administration to be facing a crisis.
    same as it ever was, sadly.

  796. Since the Republican Party has lost interest in competence as a criterion for selecting its candidates, we can expect every incoming Democratic Party administration to be facing a crisis.
    same as it ever was, sadly.

  797. Plans afoot, military-style:
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/report-trump-aides-putting-together-goodbye-crowd-for-outgoing-potus-on-inauguration-day
    Plans tripped up, oh so mysteriously:
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/report-rehearsal-for-biden-inauguration-postponed-amid-security-threats
    Hey, we’re SO-OOOOOO sorry for the reality that has been right front of your lying eyes, since forever:
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/gop-sen-apologizes-to-black-voters-for-giving-perception-of-trying-to-delegitimize-their-votes

  798. Plans afoot, military-style:
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/report-trump-aides-putting-together-goodbye-crowd-for-outgoing-potus-on-inauguration-day
    Plans tripped up, oh so mysteriously:
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/report-rehearsal-for-biden-inauguration-postponed-amid-security-threats
    Hey, we’re SO-OOOOOO sorry for the reality that has been right front of your lying eyes, since forever:
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/gop-sen-apologizes-to-black-voters-for-giving-perception-of-trying-to-delegitimize-their-votes

  799. Turns out that some/many/most of the rioters took their cell phones into the Capitol with them resulting in records of their locations to be perused by authorities.
    It’s been at least a couple of decades since I started warning people how much data about their location and activities would be available if they carried an “always on, always connected smart device running software you don’t control” with them all the time. Clearly, they’re still not listening.

  800. Turns out that some/many/most of the rioters took their cell phones into the Capitol with them resulting in records of their locations to be perused by authorities.
    It’s been at least a couple of decades since I started warning people how much data about their location and activities would be available if they carried an “always on, always connected smart device running software you don’t control” with them all the time. Clearly, they’re still not listening.

  803. I may be transgressing ObWi rules here, but nooneIthinkisinmytree and John Thullen sure do seem to be the same person, and I am sick of him/them spamming threads.
    Any chance something can be done about that?

  804. I may be transgressing ObWi rules here, but nooneIthinkisinmytree and John Thullen sure do seem to be the same person, and I am sick of him/them spamming threads.
    Any chance something can be done about that?

  805. Not just the devices, but public policy that does little or nothing to protect individuals from all of the undesirable ways that data can be used. And policies that give relatively free reign to intelligence and police to collect, review, and use that data in prosecution and generally monitoring what people do, say, write, read, listen to, and think.
    Hoist by their own deregulatory, free market, authoritarian petard(s). So be it.

  806. Not just the devices, but public policy that does little or nothing to protect individuals from all of the undesirable ways that data can be used. And policies that give relatively free reign to intelligence and police to collect, review, and use that data in prosecution and generally monitoring what people do, say, write, read, listen to, and think.
    Hoist by their own deregulatory, free market, authoritarian petard(s). So be it.

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