Yet another post about the shit we are in

by

by liberal japonicus

Seems like a good time to toss out a fresh sheet of paper, even if it is the same topic. We’ve been running thru the questions in the category ‘Terrorism or not’, I know that labels can obstruct and enhance understanding and the reason those labels can do that is that they can’t be controlled with reasoned discussion (just as the word disinterested) But this totally unrelated piece about Tommy Lasorda’s passing (via LGM) shows the kind of cultural shift that is occuring

https://defector.com/tommy-lasorda-was-the-showman-who-couldnt-turn-it-off/

He was also richly flawed in that grew-up-too-many-years-ago way. He was often a bully when he could get away with it, to players on his team, umpires, medioids, and even supervisors, and only occasionally used his charm to reel them back. His behavior toward his son, who was gay, was unconscionable; Tom Jr., who died in 1991, died of AIDS, which his father denied aggressively to anyone who asked, including author Peter Richmond. Their relationship was tortured during his son’s life, and he was combative to anyone who wanted to broach the subject. He was, in short, a louder version of many fathers in America in the ’60s and ’70s, though he and the rest of the family was at his son’s bedside at the end. He loved his son and hated the position in which he believed his son had put him in the world in which he worked.

It also hints at the end game we are looking at, provided things don’t get burned to the ground

Lasorda could not have survived in the game as it currently exists. He would not have been hired as a scout, let alone a manager. He was in every way what baseball is renouncing as it becomes less nationally resonant and more adamantly scientific. He could not muscle today’s players the way he did his own; by comparison, Tony La Russa is going to emerge as Generation Z with the personality-enriched Chicago White Sox. Even his silhouette is considered unacceptable in the new baseball, where “selling the game” means doing exactly none of the things Lasorda did to sell the game, and undoing them with a 180-degree level of inflexibility. He would not be permitted to be the things that made him remembered.

And the problem we have in referencing his career is that his methods of doing his job, which were more than sufficient for him to succeed at his job for more than two decades don’t translate to the new baseball, or in the new terms of civil discourse. Tommy Lasorda was the last over-the-top manager-actor, and until baseball can loosen the grip on the humorless spreadsheets with feet who operate the game now, he will be the last.

It’s not that I think the world is getting more scientific, but that notion that the new discourse is filled ‘humorless’ and totally inflexible is often what is cited as the problem. Certainly, there is a zero tolerance for a lot of things, as this assistant coach is finding out

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/chris-malone-fired-stacey-abrams-university-of-tennessee-chattanooga/

I’m sure some would just love to parse his tweet and say it is just fat-shaming and would I like it if someone else got fired because they called Rush Limbaugh a diseased tub of lard.

The urge to call what happened terrorism and the people who did it terrorists is a desire to place those people outside of civilized society. It is the Romans drawing a border at the Danube and saying everyone who lived on the other side was a barbarian. But one also has to remember that the Romans employed the barbarians as their foot soldiers. So I appreciate that people want to call them terrorists in order to place them outside our society. And naming things has consequences. But if it were as simple as labelling things correctly, one would think we wouldn’t be in this mess.

464 thoughts on “Yet another post about the shit we are in”

  1. I didn’t dive too deeply into the argument, but considering that terrorism is defined as “using deadly force, or threats of deadly force, against a civilian population in order to coerce political change,” it seems to me the insurrectionists, and their enablers in the media, WH and Congress, are just that: terrorists.
    They brought guns, knives, bombs, handcuffs, and hanging rope into the US Congress, with every intention of using them. The only reason they didn’t succeed was because the MOCs were moved to secure locations.
    Unless Congress is not considered “a civilian population”? I thought the distinction was civilian as opposed to military, not civilian as opposed to “any part of the government.”

  2. I didn’t dive too deeply into the argument, but considering that terrorism is defined as “using deadly force, or threats of deadly force, against a civilian population in order to coerce political change,” it seems to me the insurrectionists, and their enablers in the media, WH and Congress, are just that: terrorists.
    They brought guns, knives, bombs, handcuffs, and hanging rope into the US Congress, with every intention of using them. The only reason they didn’t succeed was because the MOCs were moved to secure locations.
    Unless Congress is not considered “a civilian population”? I thought the distinction was civilian as opposed to military, not civilian as opposed to “any part of the government.”

  5. We’ve been running thru the questions in the category ‘Terrorism or not’
    Part of the problem revolves around the fact that some terms have meanings in law which are significantly different (usually narrower) than what they mean in common use.
    For example, what happened Wednesday was an attack on the fabric of our nation. Which I personally wouldn’t hesitate to call treason. But the Constitution says “Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.” And the Supreme Court has put narrow restrictions on what constitutes “levying war.”** So as a matter of law, what happened was sedition, but not treason.
    Whether it was also terrorism is similar, but in reverse. It pretty clearly meets the legal definition. But in general use (at least up to now) whether something was terrorism depended heavily on who was attacked and who was attacking.
    ** And “enemies” apparently includes only foreign enemies.

  6. We’ve been running thru the questions in the category ‘Terrorism or not’
    Part of the problem revolves around the fact that some terms have meanings in law which are significantly different (usually narrower) than what they mean in common use.
    For example, what happened Wednesday was an attack on the fabric of our nation. Which I personally wouldn’t hesitate to call treason. But the Constitution says “Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.” And the Supreme Court has put narrow restrictions on what constitutes “levying war.”** So as a matter of law, what happened was sedition, but not treason.
    Whether it was also terrorism is similar, but in reverse. It pretty clearly meets the legal definition. But in general use (at least up to now) whether something was terrorism depended heavily on who was attacked and who was attacking.
    ** And “enemies” apparently includes only foreign enemies.

  7. Say it with me: “Radical Republican Terrorism.”
    Although, in practice I want only those for whom there is clear evidence of something more sinister than trespassing to have any terrorism charges levied against them for the same reason that I don’t actually want “Radical Republican Terror” to be the description of choice. Collective guilt and punishment is bad. Being charged with garden variety felonies for specific illegal actions should suffice for most. But I do want their social media interactions pored over and I want anyone who planned and coordinated with any conscious knowledge that there would be an attempt to breach the capitol given all the appropriate trimmings.
    And my favorite thing to come out of these shitty times is John Scalzi’s characterization of The Honorable Ted Cruz as “a fetid assemblage of moist dryer lint that dares to assert it’s a man.” My hat is off to you, Mr. Scalzi, you word goodly.

  8. Say it with me: “Radical Republican Terrorism.”
    Although, in practice I want only those for whom there is clear evidence of something more sinister than trespassing to have any terrorism charges levied against them for the same reason that I don’t actually want “Radical Republican Terror” to be the description of choice. Collective guilt and punishment is bad. Being charged with garden variety felonies for specific illegal actions should suffice for most. But I do want their social media interactions pored over and I want anyone who planned and coordinated with any conscious knowledge that there would be an attempt to breach the capitol given all the appropriate trimmings.
    And my favorite thing to come out of these shitty times is John Scalzi’s characterization of The Honorable Ted Cruz as “a fetid assemblage of moist dryer lint that dares to assert it’s a man.” My hat is off to you, Mr. Scalzi, you word goodly.

  9. I do want their social media interactions pored over and I want anyone who planned and coordinated with any conscious knowledge that there would be an attempt to breach the capitol given all the appropriate trimmings.
    I know we disagree a lot. But on this one I’m with you 100%!
    I’m not sure, however, that I agree with the slur on dryer lint by associating it with Cruz. Sewer plant input seems more like him.

  10. I do want their social media interactions pored over and I want anyone who planned and coordinated with any conscious knowledge that there would be an attempt to breach the capitol given all the appropriate trimmings.
    I know we disagree a lot. But on this one I’m with you 100%!
    I’m not sure, however, that I agree with the slur on dryer lint by associating it with Cruz. Sewer plant input seems more like him.

  11. An anecdote from my family history. My grandfather, a first generation Japanese immigrant, thought the attack on Pearl Harbor heralded a Japanese takeover of Hawai’i. He was involved with a group that was collecting money for Japanese troops in Manchuria which involved into a group that after the war, insisted that Japan had won the war and refused to pay his rent. This situation went on for several years, and around 1952 (I have the newspaper clippings) he was taken to court where he laid out his case. It was conducted thru a translator and the judge was pretty amazed, and pointed out that one of his sons had been drafted, sent to Korea and returned home because he was wounded. (I unfortunately don’t have the court transcript, but this was reported in the clippings)
    Needless to say, my grandfather lost, and family history has it that the judge requiring him to make a public statement acknowledging his error broke him.
    So my suggestion is that the people who are judged guilty need to make similar statements. It would be good if these statements were recorded and pinned to the top of their twitter and facebook accounts.

  12. An anecdote from my family history. My grandfather, a first generation Japanese immigrant, thought the attack on Pearl Harbor heralded a Japanese takeover of Hawai’i. He was involved with a group that was collecting money for Japanese troops in Manchuria which involved into a group that after the war, insisted that Japan had won the war and refused to pay his rent. This situation went on for several years, and around 1952 (I have the newspaper clippings) he was taken to court where he laid out his case. It was conducted thru a translator and the judge was pretty amazed, and pointed out that one of his sons had been drafted, sent to Korea and returned home because he was wounded. (I unfortunately don’t have the court transcript, but this was reported in the clippings)
    Needless to say, my grandfather lost, and family history has it that the judge requiring him to make a public statement acknowledging his error broke him.
    So my suggestion is that the people who are judged guilty need to make similar statements. It would be good if these statements were recorded and pinned to the top of their twitter and facebook accounts.

  15. Although, in practice I want only those for whom there is clear evidence of something more sinister than trespassing to have any terrorism charges levied against them for the same reason that I don’t actually want “Radical Republican Terror” to be the description of choice. Collective guilt and punishment is bad.
    Collective guilt and punishment has nothing to do with being an accomplice or an accessory, which everyone in that crowd who intended to breach the Capitol building was. The numbers were helpful to the people committing the terror – they wouldn’t have gone in alone.
    This ethic of being nice to the misguided people has to stop when they’re obviously mounting an insurrection. Maybe some of them have a defense if they prove that they’re mentally incapacitated or were coerced into participating.
    What would you expect to happen if you were hanging around with a bunch of armed white supremacists who are in the process of storming the Capitol? If you don’t want violence and rioting to happen, you turn around and stop participating. Punishing people who made the choice to go with that crowd is not collective punishment. This was foreseeable by everyone, and when that’s the case, criminal liability is shared. This is why robbers with a gun all get charged with murder when somebody gets shot, even if there’s only one gunman. It is foreseeable, and the law is clear that the guilt is shared in that case.

  16. Although, in practice I want only those for whom there is clear evidence of something more sinister than trespassing to have any terrorism charges levied against them for the same reason that I don’t actually want “Radical Republican Terror” to be the description of choice. Collective guilt and punishment is bad.
    Collective guilt and punishment has nothing to do with being an accomplice or an accessory, which everyone in that crowd who intended to breach the Capitol building was. The numbers were helpful to the people committing the terror – they wouldn’t have gone in alone.
    This ethic of being nice to the misguided people has to stop when they’re obviously mounting an insurrection. Maybe some of them have a defense if they prove that they’re mentally incapacitated or were coerced into participating.
    What would you expect to happen if you were hanging around with a bunch of armed white supremacists who are in the process of storming the Capitol? If you don’t want violence and rioting to happen, you turn around and stop participating. Punishing people who made the choice to go with that crowd is not collective punishment. This was foreseeable by everyone, and when that’s the case, criminal liability is shared. This is why robbers with a gun all get charged with murder when somebody gets shot, even if there’s only one gunman. It is foreseeable, and the law is clear that the guilt is shared in that case.

  17. I don’t agree with how those murder charges are actually used in our justice system, though. It’s usually used to coerce a plea and enough useful testimony to create a narrative that will convince a jury to convict others.
    Likewise, hammering everyone with a big sentence doesn’t actually serve our needs. We don’t want martyrs and another source of grievance. What we want is, like lj’s story, an acceptance of one’s actual part in a foolish crusade and some path to restoration. A real path, and real restoration.
    Justice must be restorative or division is inevitable.

  18. I don’t agree with how those murder charges are actually used in our justice system, though. It’s usually used to coerce a plea and enough useful testimony to create a narrative that will convince a jury to convict others.
    Likewise, hammering everyone with a big sentence doesn’t actually serve our needs. We don’t want martyrs and another source of grievance. What we want is, like lj’s story, an acceptance of one’s actual part in a foolish crusade and some path to restoration. A real path, and real restoration.
    Justice must be restorative or division is inevitable.

  19. To all the folks I see on twitter and facebook saying this couldn’t have been a coup because it was done in such an amateurish way, I feel like telling them don’t worry, I’m sure they will get the hang of it… [/sarcasm]

  20. To all the folks I see on twitter and facebook saying this couldn’t have been a coup because it was done in such an amateurish way, I feel like telling them don’t worry, I’m sure they will get the hang of it… [/sarcasm]

  21. Collective guilt and punishment is bad.
    Collective guilt and punishment has nothing to do with being an accomplice or an accessory, which everyone in that crowd who intended to breach the Capitol building was.
    My sense (nous correct me if I’m wrong) was that the group referred to was not member of the mob but Republicans. “Radical Republican Terror” (Although if the group is Radical Republicans, rather than all Republicans, my objection to collective responsibility drops significantly.

  22. Collective guilt and punishment is bad.
    Collective guilt and punishment has nothing to do with being an accomplice or an accessory, which everyone in that crowd who intended to breach the Capitol building was.
    My sense (nous correct me if I’m wrong) was that the group referred to was not member of the mob but Republicans. “Radical Republican Terror” (Although if the group is Radical Republicans, rather than all Republicans, my objection to collective responsibility drops significantly.

  23. Whatever we call their transgressions, I’m perversely amused by all the video and photos these dumbasses took of themselves, while breaking however many laws, as though they were doing cannonballs in their backyard pools.
    However lenient the cops might have been generally in the moment, higher-level law enforcement will continue to follow up in a more professional and thorough manner. And prosecutors will have gold-standard evidence dropped in their laps.
    Best of luck, patriots!

  24. Whatever we call their transgressions, I’m perversely amused by all the video and photos these dumbasses took of themselves, while breaking however many laws, as though they were doing cannonballs in their backyard pools.
    However lenient the cops might have been generally in the moment, higher-level law enforcement will continue to follow up in a more professional and thorough manner. And prosecutors will have gold-standard evidence dropped in their laps.
    Best of luck, patriots!

  25. We don’t want martyrs and another source of grievance. What we want is, like lj’s story, an acceptance of one’s actual part in a foolish crusade and some path to restoration.
    What *I* want is sufficiently severe punishment to get across to these rioters, and any would-be imitators, that actions have consequences. Sufficiently serious consequences that they refrain in future.
    I recognize that the efficacy of punishment as deterrence is disputed. (Although how anyone who remembers how their parents taught them what behavior is unacceptable could argue against it eludes me.) But in this case, I think it is worth a try. Not least because I don’t see an alternative which has a prayer of success.

  26. We don’t want martyrs and another source of grievance. What we want is, like lj’s story, an acceptance of one’s actual part in a foolish crusade and some path to restoration.
    What *I* want is sufficiently severe punishment to get across to these rioters, and any would-be imitators, that actions have consequences. Sufficiently serious consequences that they refrain in future.
    I recognize that the efficacy of punishment as deterrence is disputed. (Although how anyone who remembers how their parents taught them what behavior is unacceptable could argue against it eludes me.) But in this case, I think it is worth a try. Not least because I don’t see an alternative which has a prayer of success.

  27. It was an attempt to prevent a duly elected POTUS take office, by violence.
    Give it whatever name you like, that’s what it was.
    I hope and expect that preparations for Jan 20 are more thorough. By “more thorough” I mean an obvious and unassailable show of force. Any assumption that Trump’s base “would never do that” should be off the table.
    I’m still trying to get an understanding of how to manage my personal relationships with people I know who still support this guy. It hasn’t come up yet, but I’m sure it will. I’m not sure that “let’s just not discuss it” is adequate anymore.
    People need to understand exactly how unacceptable this is.
    If there isn’t a strong response, next time it will worse.

  28. It was an attempt to prevent a duly elected POTUS take office, by violence.
    Give it whatever name you like, that’s what it was.
    I hope and expect that preparations for Jan 20 are more thorough. By “more thorough” I mean an obvious and unassailable show of force. Any assumption that Trump’s base “would never do that” should be off the table.
    I’m still trying to get an understanding of how to manage my personal relationships with people I know who still support this guy. It hasn’t come up yet, but I’m sure it will. I’m not sure that “let’s just not discuss it” is adequate anymore.
    People need to understand exactly how unacceptable this is.
    If there isn’t a strong response, next time it will worse.

  29. I hope and expect that preparations for Jan 20 are more thorough. By “more thorough” I mean an obvious and unassailable show of force. Any assumption that Trump’s base “would never do that” should be off the table.
    It may be a blessing that, due to covid (and the fact that Biden, unlike Trump, takes it seriously), the Inauguration won’t be a crowd event. Making would-be disruptors more visible. And more readily dealt with.

  30. I hope and expect that preparations for Jan 20 are more thorough. By “more thorough” I mean an obvious and unassailable show of force. Any assumption that Trump’s base “would never do that” should be off the table.
    It may be a blessing that, due to covid (and the fact that Biden, unlike Trump, takes it seriously), the Inauguration won’t be a crowd event. Making would-be disruptors more visible. And more readily dealt with.

  31. nous, re: your 11:13, there’s a lot wrong with our criminal justice system, but requiring people to own the foreseeable consequences of their actions isn’t one of them. If you have a way for people accept that their part in this travesty was unwise, and that they are supporting a cause that’s hateful and wrong, I’d join you in going for it.
    What I’m not in favor of is what so many people here always do: oh, they’re good people, just were led astray, and on top of that, maybe they need a better job!
    No. Figure out what to do, but don’t let them off the hook for their despicable fascist assault.

  32. nous, re: your 11:13, there’s a lot wrong with our criminal justice system, but requiring people to own the foreseeable consequences of their actions isn’t one of them. If you have a way for people accept that their part in this travesty was unwise, and that they are supporting a cause that’s hateful and wrong, I’d join you in going for it.
    What I’m not in favor of is what so many people here always do: oh, they’re good people, just were led astray, and on top of that, maybe they need a better job!
    No. Figure out what to do, but don’t let them off the hook for their despicable fascist assault.

  33. And what both wj and russell said. I mean, we don’t want martyrs, but we don’t want terrorists either. And they are terrorists. They’re terrifying me right now.
    Let’s recall that they support Trump, whose party didn’t even have a platform. They don’t support policy: they support mindless, empty cruelty.

  34. And what both wj and russell said. I mean, we don’t want martyrs, but we don’t want terrorists either. And they are terrorists. They’re terrifying me right now.
    Let’s recall that they support Trump, whose party didn’t even have a platform. They don’t support policy: they support mindless, empty cruelty.

  37. He, Trump
    He, Trump, Jr.
    Little He, Trump
    Rudy!
    Ken Paxton, shame of Texas
    Mo Brooks, pride of Alabama
    These were the scum who incited the riot-turned-invasion, and they did it speaking into a microphone in front of broadcast TV cameras — on the day of. They were doing it in other public venues for months, of course. Anyone who claims an “investigation” is needed in their case has to be somebody who needs GPS to find his bathroom in the morning. Anyone who argues that these scum didn’t really break The Law has to admit that The Law is a ass sometimes. To focus The Law on their dupes and give the instigators a pass is to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.
    Whether the morons who killed a Capitol Hill cop, or got themselves killed, or vandalized the building, or waved Confederate flags or hoisted a TRUMP flag, deserve to be called “traitors” or “terrorists” or “trespassers” is such a microscopically insignificant bit of hair-splitting that I am tempted to despair for the sanity of the nation that calls itself the “United States of America” and piously intones “This is not who we are”. Bullshit. The one undeniable classification of those yahoos is: American.
    That’s true of the instigators too, of course. I think. I haven’t seen their birth certificates.
    –TP

  38. He, Trump
    He, Trump, Jr.
    Little He, Trump
    Rudy!
    Ken Paxton, shame of Texas
    Mo Brooks, pride of Alabama
    These were the scum who incited the riot-turned-invasion, and they did it speaking into a microphone in front of broadcast TV cameras — on the day of. They were doing it in other public venues for months, of course. Anyone who claims an “investigation” is needed in their case has to be somebody who needs GPS to find his bathroom in the morning. Anyone who argues that these scum didn’t really break The Law has to admit that The Law is a ass sometimes. To focus The Law on their dupes and give the instigators a pass is to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.
    Whether the morons who killed a Capitol Hill cop, or got themselves killed, or vandalized the building, or waved Confederate flags or hoisted a TRUMP flag, deserve to be called “traitors” or “terrorists” or “trespassers” is such a microscopically insignificant bit of hair-splitting that I am tempted to despair for the sanity of the nation that calls itself the “United States of America” and piously intones “This is not who we are”. Bullshit. The one undeniable classification of those yahoos is: American.
    That’s true of the instigators too, of course. I think. I haven’t seen their birth certificates.
    –TP

  41. I am not saying that people should not be held accountable for their actions. I am saying that they should not be held accountable for the actions of others who were there with them who they did not know and had no communication with.
    And sapient, in this I have been thinking specifically about many of the restorative justice practices that were developed to deal with the difficulty of reconciliation in Northern Ireland. I think we are on the edge of something like that dynamic. At some level in this the criminal justice framework has to yield to the political need for setting grievance aside, however real those grievances may be. We are not so far gone in the process that we have to let the principle figures go unpunished, but there has to be a level at which the scales are, not balanced, but forgiven. Negotiating what that point is leaves both sides unsatisfied, but the negotiation has to happen or the feud must be allowed to burn itself out.

  42. I am not saying that people should not be held accountable for their actions. I am saying that they should not be held accountable for the actions of others who were there with them who they did not know and had no communication with.
    And sapient, in this I have been thinking specifically about many of the restorative justice practices that were developed to deal with the difficulty of reconciliation in Northern Ireland. I think we are on the edge of something like that dynamic. At some level in this the criminal justice framework has to yield to the political need for setting grievance aside, however real those grievances may be. We are not so far gone in the process that we have to let the principle figures go unpunished, but there has to be a level at which the scales are, not balanced, but forgiven. Negotiating what that point is leaves both sides unsatisfied, but the negotiation has to happen or the feud must be allowed to burn itself out.

  47. deal with the each of the individuals individually.
    People are usually dealt with individually in the criminal justice system. People’s participation in a violent, murderous act of terrorism is itself grounds for prosecution.
    And that includes people like Ginni Thomas.

  48. deal with the each of the individuals individually.
    People are usually dealt with individually in the criminal justice system. People’s participation in a violent, murderous act of terrorism is itself grounds for prosecution.
    And that includes people like Ginni Thomas.

  49. Also, I hope the news media publishes all of their names, not piecemeal, but in one place, so that it’s easy for us to refer to it whenever we need to do a background check.

  50. Also, I hope the news media publishes all of their names, not piecemeal, but in one place, so that it’s easy for us to refer to it whenever we need to do a background check.

  51. Another anecdote, second hand, but from two different people to show how it works here.
    Back when they started a program to bring recent uni grads to Japan to work at local boards of education, while they got some good people, they weren’t, to turn a phrase, always the best. And one of these guys (you knew it was a guy, right?) on the other side of the bell curve was posted in the snowy northern part of Japan. Though I imagine it is not as common now, back then, people would often leave their cars running when they went into some place to pick something up. So you could be trudging thru the snow and walk by a car idling with no driver in it. Our young protagonist, who was three sheets to the wind, decided it would be a good idea to get in the car and drive it home. But he didn’t make it, he totaled the car.
    Because this was a small town and he was employed by the board of education, everything was hushed up. This occurred over the winter break and our hero thought that if they were going to cover it up, he would go back to work because he was now flat broke.
    So he got back to the office and did the Japanese thing, which is to say good morning, and receive a choral reply. But instead, there was nothing. Not even a head lifting up from the desk, a fleeting moment of eye contact. He might as well have been a ghost. He went in, sat down at his desk and after a few attempts to speak to someone, realized that no one was going to acknowledge his presence. No dressing down, no anger, just a total absence of reaction.
    I don’t know how long he gutted it out, maybe one day, maybe a couple of days. But it was clear that the office was going to keep doing this for as long as he was there. So he went to the section head and said that he was resigning and which the section head accepted.
    Obviously, this is a Japanese kind of punishment where it is actually common
    https://japanintercultural.com/free-resources/articles/oidashibeya-japanese-purgatory/
    Probably too much to hope that this sort of thing could be done to Cruz and Hawley, who show no intention of resigning. They still have to be recognized if they are on the Senate floor, but I would love if everyone else had the will power to do what the Japanese office did to that guy.

  52. Another anecdote, second hand, but from two different people to show how it works here.
    Back when they started a program to bring recent uni grads to Japan to work at local boards of education, while they got some good people, they weren’t, to turn a phrase, always the best. And one of these guys (you knew it was a guy, right?) on the other side of the bell curve was posted in the snowy northern part of Japan. Though I imagine it is not as common now, back then, people would often leave their cars running when they went into some place to pick something up. So you could be trudging thru the snow and walk by a car idling with no driver in it. Our young protagonist, who was three sheets to the wind, decided it would be a good idea to get in the car and drive it home. But he didn’t make it, he totaled the car.
    Because this was a small town and he was employed by the board of education, everything was hushed up. This occurred over the winter break and our hero thought that if they were going to cover it up, he would go back to work because he was now flat broke.
    So he got back to the office and did the Japanese thing, which is to say good morning, and receive a choral reply. But instead, there was nothing. Not even a head lifting up from the desk, a fleeting moment of eye contact. He might as well have been a ghost. He went in, sat down at his desk and after a few attempts to speak to someone, realized that no one was going to acknowledge his presence. No dressing down, no anger, just a total absence of reaction.
    I don’t know how long he gutted it out, maybe one day, maybe a couple of days. But it was clear that the office was going to keep doing this for as long as he was there. So he went to the section head and said that he was resigning and which the section head accepted.
    Obviously, this is a Japanese kind of punishment where it is actually common
    https://japanintercultural.com/free-resources/articles/oidashibeya-japanese-purgatory/
    Probably too much to hope that this sort of thing could be done to Cruz and Hawley, who show no intention of resigning. They still have to be recognized if they are on the Senate floor, but I would love if everyone else had the will power to do what the Japanese office did to that guy.

  55. I would love if everyone else had the will power to do what the Japanese office did to that guy.
    Yes. Perfect.

  56. I would love if everyone else had the will power to do what the Japanese office did to that guy.
    Yes. Perfect.

  57. Joaquin Castro
    In addition to supporting the impeachment and removal of Donald Trump, I am also preparing legislation that would prohibit any federal building or property from being named after President Donald J. Trump.
    …
    President Trump incited an insurrection that damaged some our nation’s most significant and sacred federal property.
    Most importantly – let us learn from our past.
    Donald Trump should never become a future generation’s confederate symbol.

    that’s the stuff.

  58. Joaquin Castro
    In addition to supporting the impeachment and removal of Donald Trump, I am also preparing legislation that would prohibit any federal building or property from being named after President Donald J. Trump.
    …
    President Trump incited an insurrection that damaged some our nation’s most significant and sacred federal property.
    Most importantly – let us learn from our past.
    Donald Trump should never become a future generation’s confederate symbol.

    that’s the stuff.

  63. I appreciate and agree with the idea that we don’t want to treat all of these people the same way. I don’t think anyone is suggesting treating all of these people the same way.
    What’s being suggested is that none of them get a pass.
    If you forcefully cross a police barricade, you know you’re breaking the law. If you get into punch-ups with cops, you know you’re breaking the law. If you assault news people and trash their gear, you know you’re breaking the law. If you enter a public building when it’s locked down for reasons of security, you know you’re breaking the law.
    If you enter people’s private offices and go through their stuff, you know you’re breaking the law. If you take stuff from those offices, let alone privileged or secure stuff, you know you’re breaking the law. If you vandalize the building and its contents, you know you’re breaking the law.
    If you drop your trousers and take a shit in the hallways of the Capitol and then smear it around, you know you’re breaking the law.
    And all of that doesn’t even begin to get into the dudes with zip ties, tasers, pipe bombs, molotov cocktails, and firearms.
    It also doesn’t get into retired and active military and police, whose professional background and training must have left them with no doubt about the legality and consequences of what they were doing.
    It also doesn’t get into elected public officials, whose position certainly left them with no doubt about the legality and consequences of what they were doing.
    None of these people were innocent. Not one. If you can find someone who was, literally, swept along with the crowd against their will and somehow found themselves in the Capitol building, fine. That person gets a pass. But I’m guessing the number of those people asymptotically approaches zero.
    Everyone who crossed the police line was engaged in an effort to interfere, by force, with the peaceful transfer of power. Something that has never happened in this country’s history, including during the Civil War.
    To do that knowingly and deliberately is an extraordinarily consequential act.
    I am absolutely certain that many of these people engaged in this from a mistaken belief in the fraudulence of the election. That is unfortunate and to no small degree tragic and pitiable.
    It does not excuse their actions, or exempt them from the consequences of their actions. Accurate information about the election is and has been available from a thousand sources.
    People – functioning adult people – are responsible for the things they choose to read and listen to, and for the things they choose to believe. And they are responsible for the actions they take based on those beliefs.
    We need to find every person we are able to who crossed the police line and entered the Capitol, and work our way up to everyone engaged in vandalism and looting. We absolutely need to identify every one of them who is active or retired military or police. We need to identify every one of the organizers, everyone who arranged transportation and accommodations.
    We need to identify every Capitol cop that opened a barricade, took a selfie with a rioter, or otherwise failed in their responsibility to secure the Capitol.
    We need to identify the folks who found their way to hard-to-find offices, and find out how they found their way to those places. If that information was provided by folks on the inside, we need to identify those folks.
    We need to roll this mess up, root and branch, with no exceptions.
    Why?
    Because these goons have been threatening this kind of behavior for a generation at least. They’ve been telling us, over and over, that they are going to forcefully resist anything they don’t like. They have the guns, and they are going to use them. They are the real Americans – they are ‘we the people’ – and the rest of us will have to suck it up.
    They’ve been telling us this for years, and trying it on for years. With the encouragement and blessing of Donald J Trump, they’ve decided to take this shit out of basement and bring it into the light of day.
    These people attempted to prevent the peaceful transfer of power of this country’s government by force. Because they considered themselves entitled to do so.
    It needs to be made absolutely crystal clear that that will not stand.
    I’m not in favor of treating dumb-ass dude with his work badge bumbling around the rotunda the same way that we treat retired Air Force colonel running around the Senate floor with a handful of zip ties.
    But I am absolutely not in favor of any of these people getting a pass. Not one of them.
    Find them, arrest them, charge them, and exact whatever punishment is appropriate. Follow every connection and root out everyone involved in the organization and planning for this.
    This was not a simple case of a peaceful protest gone out of bounds. It was an attempt to overrule and overthrow the Constitutional process of electing and seating the head of government. That is a consequential thing to attempt. If actual consequences – real, tangible consequences – don’t follow, then this crap will never, ever stop.
    A cost needs to be paid for this. These people need to be confronted with reality.

  64. I appreciate and agree with the idea that we don’t want to treat all of these people the same way. I don’t think anyone is suggesting treating all of these people the same way.
    What’s being suggested is that none of them get a pass.
    If you forcefully cross a police barricade, you know you’re breaking the law. If you get into punch-ups with cops, you know you’re breaking the law. If you assault news people and trash their gear, you know you’re breaking the law. If you enter a public building when it’s locked down for reasons of security, you know you’re breaking the law.
    If you enter people’s private offices and go through their stuff, you know you’re breaking the law. If you take stuff from those offices, let alone privileged or secure stuff, you know you’re breaking the law. If you vandalize the building and its contents, you know you’re breaking the law.
    If you drop your trousers and take a shit in the hallways of the Capitol and then smear it around, you know you’re breaking the law.
    And all of that doesn’t even begin to get into the dudes with zip ties, tasers, pipe bombs, molotov cocktails, and firearms.
    It also doesn’t get into retired and active military and police, whose professional background and training must have left them with no doubt about the legality and consequences of what they were doing.
    It also doesn’t get into elected public officials, whose position certainly left them with no doubt about the legality and consequences of what they were doing.
    None of these people were innocent. Not one. If you can find someone who was, literally, swept along with the crowd against their will and somehow found themselves in the Capitol building, fine. That person gets a pass. But I’m guessing the number of those people asymptotically approaches zero.
    Everyone who crossed the police line was engaged in an effort to interfere, by force, with the peaceful transfer of power. Something that has never happened in this country’s history, including during the Civil War.
    To do that knowingly and deliberately is an extraordinarily consequential act.
    I am absolutely certain that many of these people engaged in this from a mistaken belief in the fraudulence of the election. That is unfortunate and to no small degree tragic and pitiable.
    It does not excuse their actions, or exempt them from the consequences of their actions. Accurate information about the election is and has been available from a thousand sources.
    People – functioning adult people – are responsible for the things they choose to read and listen to, and for the things they choose to believe. And they are responsible for the actions they take based on those beliefs.
    We need to find every person we are able to who crossed the police line and entered the Capitol, and work our way up to everyone engaged in vandalism and looting. We absolutely need to identify every one of them who is active or retired military or police. We need to identify every one of the organizers, everyone who arranged transportation and accommodations.
    We need to identify every Capitol cop that opened a barricade, took a selfie with a rioter, or otherwise failed in their responsibility to secure the Capitol.
    We need to identify the folks who found their way to hard-to-find offices, and find out how they found their way to those places. If that information was provided by folks on the inside, we need to identify those folks.
    We need to roll this mess up, root and branch, with no exceptions.
    Why?
    Because these goons have been threatening this kind of behavior for a generation at least. They’ve been telling us, over and over, that they are going to forcefully resist anything they don’t like. They have the guns, and they are going to use them. They are the real Americans – they are ‘we the people’ – and the rest of us will have to suck it up.
    They’ve been telling us this for years, and trying it on for years. With the encouragement and blessing of Donald J Trump, they’ve decided to take this shit out of basement and bring it into the light of day.
    These people attempted to prevent the peaceful transfer of power of this country’s government by force. Because they considered themselves entitled to do so.
    It needs to be made absolutely crystal clear that that will not stand.
    I’m not in favor of treating dumb-ass dude with his work badge bumbling around the rotunda the same way that we treat retired Air Force colonel running around the Senate floor with a handful of zip ties.
    But I am absolutely not in favor of any of these people getting a pass. Not one of them.
    Find them, arrest them, charge them, and exact whatever punishment is appropriate. Follow every connection and root out everyone involved in the organization and planning for this.
    This was not a simple case of a peaceful protest gone out of bounds. It was an attempt to overrule and overthrow the Constitutional process of electing and seating the head of government. That is a consequential thing to attempt. If actual consequences – real, tangible consequences – don’t follow, then this crap will never, ever stop.
    A cost needs to be paid for this. These people need to be confronted with reality.

  67. Lieutenant Colonel Larry Rendall Brock, Jr.
    Brock is the guy in combat gear running around the Senate floor with a handful of zip ties.
    “I dunno, I just found them. I was gonna give them to a cop.” said Brock.
    Who knows, it could be true.
    I’d say we should call Brock back into active duty and court martial him. Remove his pension. Require him to surrender his decorations, if that’s possible.
    And then, charge him with whatever criminal penalties are appropriate and exact whatever punishment follows from that.
    Because we cannot tolerate seditious fifth column actors in the military, whether active or retired.
    That’s my suggestion. What think you, nous? Is that excessively punitive, insufficiently restorative?
    I’m not trying to challenge you here or stick it to you, I’m trying to understand where the balance between punitive and restorative lies.
    The man is a retired senior officer of the USAF. He took an oath to protect and defend the Constitution, and we have a picture of him which appears to show him looking for a Senator to tie up.
    What’s appropriate?

  68. Lieutenant Colonel Larry Rendall Brock, Jr.
    Brock is the guy in combat gear running around the Senate floor with a handful of zip ties.
    “I dunno, I just found them. I was gonna give them to a cop.” said Brock.
    Who knows, it could be true.
    I’d say we should call Brock back into active duty and court martial him. Remove his pension. Require him to surrender his decorations, if that’s possible.
    And then, charge him with whatever criminal penalties are appropriate and exact whatever punishment follows from that.
    Because we cannot tolerate seditious fifth column actors in the military, whether active or retired.
    That’s my suggestion. What think you, nous? Is that excessively punitive, insufficiently restorative?
    I’m not trying to challenge you here or stick it to you, I’m trying to understand where the balance between punitive and restorative lies.
    The man is a retired senior officer of the USAF. He took an oath to protect and defend the Constitution, and we have a picture of him which appears to show him looking for a Senator to tie up.
    What’s appropriate?

  69. Not wanting to speak for nous, but I think there is something to be said to treating military and former military way more strictly than civilians. It’s a matter of keeping discipline. Active or on reserve, throw the book at them. If they were in the military and they crossed that police line, you bring them back in and court martial them, and make sure you take away their pensions.
    It appears that there was some aiding and abetting among the Capitol Police, directing them to offices and such. However, some of the interactions when trying to clear the building could be argued as deescalation and so you’d probably have to have a pretty high standard of proof.
    They should all have their social media accounts gone over with a fine tooth comb. It is something that they can expect if they were on active duty so complaints about privacy and such don’t really hold water.

  70. Not wanting to speak for nous, but I think there is something to be said to treating military and former military way more strictly than civilians. It’s a matter of keeping discipline. Active or on reserve, throw the book at them. If they were in the military and they crossed that police line, you bring them back in and court martial them, and make sure you take away their pensions.
    It appears that there was some aiding and abetting among the Capitol Police, directing them to offices and such. However, some of the interactions when trying to clear the building could be argued as deescalation and so you’d probably have to have a pretty high standard of proof.
    They should all have their social media accounts gone over with a fine tooth comb. It is something that they can expect if they were on active duty so complaints about privacy and such don’t really hold water.

  71. Lastly (for now, from me, anyway) I am 100% in favor of impeaching Trump. Again.
    Take away his $200K/year pension.
    Take away his $1M/year travel allowance.
    Take away his lifetime secret service detail.
    Prevent him from ever holding federal office again.
    Let him leave office in humiliation and utter failure.
    My two cents.

  72. Lastly (for now, from me, anyway) I am 100% in favor of impeaching Trump. Again.
    Take away his $200K/year pension.
    Take away his $1M/year travel allowance.
    Take away his lifetime secret service detail.
    Prevent him from ever holding federal office again.
    Let him leave office in humiliation and utter failure.
    My two cents.

  75. It needs to be made absolutely crystal clear that that will not stand.
    I’m not in favor of treating dumb-ass dude with his work badge bumbling around the rotunda the same way that we treat retired Air Force colonel running around the Senate floor with a handful of zip ties.
    But I am absolutely not in favor of any of these people getting a pass. Not one of them.
    This. And everything else in russell’s 11.11

  76. It needs to be made absolutely crystal clear that that will not stand.
    I’m not in favor of treating dumb-ass dude with his work badge bumbling around the rotunda the same way that we treat retired Air Force colonel running around the Senate floor with a handful of zip ties.
    But I am absolutely not in favor of any of these people getting a pass. Not one of them.
    This. And everything else in russell’s 11.11

  77. “I dunno, I just found them. I was gonna give them to a cop.” said Brock.
    seditious sponge-brained traitor says what?

  78. “I dunno, I just found them. I was gonna give them to a cop.” said Brock.
    seditious sponge-brained traitor says what?

  81. heh. turns out, ‘lecturn’ is actually a valid but obsolete variant of ‘lectern’ and not just a dumb typo on my part!

  82. heh. turns out, ‘lecturn’ is actually a valid but obsolete variant of ‘lectern’ and not just a dumb typo on my part!

  83. And while we’re at it, perhaps we can reestablish the fact that when people are required to testify in the house or senate before your elected representatives they actually have to do it (notwithstanding if there are security concerns they might have to do it in camera).

  84. And while we’re at it, perhaps we can reestablish the fact that when people are required to testify in the house or senate before your elected representatives they actually have to do it (notwithstanding if there are security concerns they might have to do it in camera).

  87. Probably too much to hope that this sort of thing could be done to Cruz and Hawley, who show no intention of resigning. They still have to be recognized if they are on the Senate floor, but I would love if everyone else had the will power to do what the Japanese office did to that guy.
    It’s a cultural thing that only works if essentialy everybody is on board. With Hawley and Cruz, there are enough of the same mind that the force just isn’t there.
    As for recognizing Hawley on the Senate floor, there’s a solution for that. Both the House and Senate have the power to find their members “unqualified.” In Powell v. McCormack the Supreme Court limited that to refusal to seat based on constitutional eligibility (age, citizenship and residency). But the Senate could try for a new test case. Suggest to the court that sedition, for example, or other failure to honor one’s oath of office would also be grounds.

  88. Probably too much to hope that this sort of thing could be done to Cruz and Hawley, who show no intention of resigning. They still have to be recognized if they are on the Senate floor, but I would love if everyone else had the will power to do what the Japanese office did to that guy.
    It’s a cultural thing that only works if essentialy everybody is on board. With Hawley and Cruz, there are enough of the same mind that the force just isn’t there.
    As for recognizing Hawley on the Senate floor, there’s a solution for that. Both the House and Senate have the power to find their members “unqualified.” In Powell v. McCormack the Supreme Court limited that to refusal to seat based on constitutional eligibility (age, citizenship and residency). But the Senate could try for a new test case. Suggest to the court that sedition, for example, or other failure to honor one’s oath of office would also be grounds.

  89. What russell said (at 11:11)
    Happily, the FBI has made clear that they are working, nationwide, to find and arrest the perps.

  90. What russell said (at 11:11)
    Happily, the FBI has made clear that they are working, nationwide, to find and arrest the perps.

  93. Sigh.
    McConnell is circulating a memo detailing how a second impeachment trial would go. According to that, proceeding before 19 January would require unanimous consent (all 100 Senators). Give Hawley, not to mention Cruz, that seems unlikely.

  94. Sigh.
    McConnell is circulating a memo detailing how a second impeachment trial would go. According to that, proceeding before 19 January would require unanimous consent (all 100 Senators). Give Hawley, not to mention Cruz, that seems unlikely.

  95. Everyone who crossed the police line was engaged in an effort to interfere, by force, with the peaceful transfer of power.
    Does that include John Sullivan, the guy who, reportedly, was there shooting video of what happened?

  96. Everyone who crossed the police line was engaged in an effort to interfere, by force, with the peaceful transfer of power.
    Does that include John Sullivan, the guy who, reportedly, was there shooting video of what happened?

  97. McConnell was ID’d some years ago as the true destroyer of Democracy. His crocodile tears Wednesday are meaningless.
    McConnell’s continued electoral success is possibly the sin qua none example of how you can grind the people of your state down into the dirt and still get their votes by deflecting blame onto people they already hate.

  98. McConnell was ID’d some years ago as the true destroyer of Democracy. His crocodile tears Wednesday are meaningless.
    McConnell’s continued electoral success is possibly the sin qua none example of how you can grind the people of your state down into the dirt and still get their votes by deflecting blame onto people they already hate.

  99. Brock should be put on trial for whatever crimes there is evidence to support, and our national intelligence community should do whatever is in their legal and ethical power to find and analyze his private communications to determine if he did, indeed, coordinate and plan any of this. They should do whatever is within their legal and ethical power to find out how and when he came into possession of those ties and continue to prosecute there as appropriate. And, yes, he should probably have his rank and honors stripped and be drummed out at a minimum.
    I don’t think there is anything to be gained by putting Elizabeth from Lexington in prison for ten years as a terrorist or seditionist. She should probably be charged with criminal trespass based on self-incrimination and she should absolutely be put through a trial (not a plea bargain).
    I don’t say this for Elizabeth’s sake. I say this for the sake of all the would-be Elizabeths who identify with Elizabeth’s sense of fear and desperation. I understand wanting those people to be scared straight, but they are where they are because they have been terrorized by their own media into this, and conditioned to see a crack-down against them as the validation of the totalitarianism they believe they must oppose with their own blood. We have to break that fear and that image somehow without looking either impotent or like we are punishing them out of proportion to their crimes because of their beliefs.
    This is how you always have to deal with a bloodfeud or an insurgency. You have to make it a priority not to radicalize the family and associates of those who have broken the peace while insisting on the terms of the peace.
    The alternative is to let the grievance burn until the grievants are all dead or too fatigued to continue. I don’t want to be a character in an Icelandic saga or in a story of The Troubles if that can be avoided.

  100. Brock should be put on trial for whatever crimes there is evidence to support, and our national intelligence community should do whatever is in their legal and ethical power to find and analyze his private communications to determine if he did, indeed, coordinate and plan any of this. They should do whatever is within their legal and ethical power to find out how and when he came into possession of those ties and continue to prosecute there as appropriate. And, yes, he should probably have his rank and honors stripped and be drummed out at a minimum.
    I don’t think there is anything to be gained by putting Elizabeth from Lexington in prison for ten years as a terrorist or seditionist. She should probably be charged with criminal trespass based on self-incrimination and she should absolutely be put through a trial (not a plea bargain).
    I don’t say this for Elizabeth’s sake. I say this for the sake of all the would-be Elizabeths who identify with Elizabeth’s sense of fear and desperation. I understand wanting those people to be scared straight, but they are where they are because they have been terrorized by their own media into this, and conditioned to see a crack-down against them as the validation of the totalitarianism they believe they must oppose with their own blood. We have to break that fear and that image somehow without looking either impotent or like we are punishing them out of proportion to their crimes because of their beliefs.
    This is how you always have to deal with a bloodfeud or an insurgency. You have to make it a priority not to radicalize the family and associates of those who have broken the peace while insisting on the terms of the peace.
    The alternative is to let the grievance burn until the grievants are all dead or too fatigued to continue. I don’t want to be a character in an Icelandic saga or in a story of The Troubles if that can be avoided.

  101. McConnell’s continued electoral success is possibly the sin qua none example of how you can grind the people of your state down into the dirt and still get their votes
    What does it say about Kentucky that they repeatedly choose McConnell and Paul as their senators? Even Alabama has shown better sense than that.

  102. McConnell’s continued electoral success is possibly the sin qua none example of how you can grind the people of your state down into the dirt and still get their votes
    What does it say about Kentucky that they repeatedly choose McConnell and Paul as their senators? Even Alabama has shown better sense than that.

  103. (all 100 Senators)
    All Senators present at the time the request is made, I think. IIRC, a motion is made and the presiding officer asks, “Are there any objections? <pause> Seeing none, the motion is adopted.” The Senate is holding pro forma sessions every few days so that recess appointments can’t be made. The next one is Jan 12. Might be interesting if a quorum was present. Although I assume McConnell has made sure the designated presiding officer is “safe” and would make an objection.

  104. (all 100 Senators)
    All Senators present at the time the request is made, I think. IIRC, a motion is made and the presiding officer asks, “Are there any objections? <pause> Seeing none, the motion is adopted.” The Senate is holding pro forma sessions every few days so that recess appointments can’t be made. The next one is Jan 12. Might be interesting if a quorum was present. Although I assume McConnell has made sure the designated presiding officer is “safe” and would make an objection.

  105. Does that include John Sullivan
    Sullivan was apparently not trying to stop the electoral vote count. So, no.
    I also don’t have a big problem with Sullivan being arrested and charged with trespass or whatever charges are appropriate for his presence there. FWIW.

  106. Does that include John Sullivan
    Sullivan was apparently not trying to stop the electoral vote count. So, no.
    I also don’t have a big problem with Sullivan being arrested and charged with trespass or whatever charges are appropriate for his presence there. FWIW.

  109. identified: Zip Tie guy. he’s a bartender in Nashville.
    this somewhat undersells it…
    he’s actually a bartender at “Kid Rock’s Big Ass Honky Tonk Rock N Roll Steakhouse” !

  110. identified: Zip Tie guy. he’s a bartender in Nashville.
    this somewhat undersells it…
    he’s actually a bartender at “Kid Rock’s Big Ass Honky Tonk Rock N Roll Steakhouse” !

  111. I don’t think there is anything to be gained by putting Elizabeth from Lexington in prison for ten years as a terrorist or seditionist. She should probably be charged with criminal trespass based on self-incrimination and she should absolutely be put through a trial (not a plea bargain).
    I think you mean Elizabeth from Knoxville.
    Elizabeth was there, by her own words, to storm the capitol and engage in revolution. I doubt she has any clear idea of what her “revolution” encompasses. But it’s pretty clear she was there to try to prevent Joe Biden from becoming POTUS.
    Does that assumption seem fair? Should Elizabeth be asked to explain what, exactly, she was there for?
    If she was there purely to express her displeasure with the outcome of the election, and got caught up in it all and found herself joining the throng who broke the police line and entered the Capitol, then criminal trespass seems reasonable. And I don’t really care all that much if she goes to jail or not.
    If she was there intending to prevent the electoral count from proceeding so that – by some mysterious means – Trump would continue to be POTUS, then maybe stronger charges are warranted.
    they are where they are because they have been terrorized by their own media into this, and conditioned to see a crack-down against them as the validation of the totalitarianism they believe they must oppose with their own blood.
    Yes, I get that. And I’m not lacking in sympathy for people who find themselves living in a constant atmosphere of doom and paranoia.
    But people are not without agency. They own some responsibility for what they embrace.
    Don’t you think?
    Somebody has been telling them that the election was rigged, that Trump really won but cabals of bad actors in all of those corrupt big cities (especially the ones full of black people) have manipulated election law to tip the scales, that all of the recounts and court rulings – all of them – were somehow compromised. Basically, that the whole world has engaged in a conspiracy to deprive them of their chosen leader.
    Do people have any responsibility at all to think twice about crap like that?
    And if embracing all of that drives them to engage in mob violence, are they somehow not responsible for their own actions?
    We have to break that fear and that image somehow without looking either impotent or like we are punishing them out of proportion to their crimes because of their beliefs.
    I agree. And I think that is going to prove to be really hard to do, because these folks appear to be very, very attached to their beliefs, no matter how outre or fantastical.
    And in the meantime, while we’re all trying to talk these folks down off the ledge wherever that is possible (and it won’t all be possible), we need to make it clear to them that they do not have the right to behave this way.
    They have no such right.
    I can’t make these people stop lapping up the crap that the likes of QAnon and OAN and similar puke fountains spew on a daily basis. I can’t. There is not one damned thing I can do about it.
    I wish there was. There isn’t.
    What I can do is expect and require them to not engage in the kind of crap we’ve seen this week. And, unless we’re pretty damned lucky, we are going to continue to see. Because these folks aren’t done with this bullshit yet, I can promise you that.
    A blood feud implies that there are two parties involved. There aren’t two parties involved. Nobody is threatening these people, nobody is taking their rights away, nobody is preventing them from voting or engaging in public and civic life.
    Nobody is doing a damned thing to them. It’s in their fncking heads.
    There is no feud. They fill their own heads with poison and it makes them insane.
    I am 100% on board with trying to persuade them that none of the shit they believe is real. But I’m not sure how to go about doing that. We have a very liberal reading of freedom of speech in this country, and I completely support that, and that means the QAnons and the OAN’s and all of the social media goons can say whatever they want to say. And I neither have nor want any control over what people choose to read or hear.
    If you have a good idea about how to wean them off the toxic bullshit, all good. I don’t.
    But in the meantime, I by god am not going to accept the idea that these people can threaten the rest of us with violence if they don’t get their way. Which they do, on a daily basis.
    It is not acceptable. You can rant all you want, but when your rants turn into actions, the rest of us get to draw a line.
    It’s long past time to do that.
    I understand that these folks are living in some weird paranoid universe. It’s up to them to change that. Not me. Them.

  112. I don’t think there is anything to be gained by putting Elizabeth from Lexington in prison for ten years as a terrorist or seditionist. She should probably be charged with criminal trespass based on self-incrimination and she should absolutely be put through a trial (not a plea bargain).
    I think you mean Elizabeth from Knoxville.
    Elizabeth was there, by her own words, to storm the capitol and engage in revolution. I doubt she has any clear idea of what her “revolution” encompasses. But it’s pretty clear she was there to try to prevent Joe Biden from becoming POTUS.
    Does that assumption seem fair? Should Elizabeth be asked to explain what, exactly, she was there for?
    If she was there purely to express her displeasure with the outcome of the election, and got caught up in it all and found herself joining the throng who broke the police line and entered the Capitol, then criminal trespass seems reasonable. And I don’t really care all that much if she goes to jail or not.
    If she was there intending to prevent the electoral count from proceeding so that – by some mysterious means – Trump would continue to be POTUS, then maybe stronger charges are warranted.
    they are where they are because they have been terrorized by their own media into this, and conditioned to see a crack-down against them as the validation of the totalitarianism they believe they must oppose with their own blood.
    Yes, I get that. And I’m not lacking in sympathy for people who find themselves living in a constant atmosphere of doom and paranoia.
    But people are not without agency. They own some responsibility for what they embrace.
    Don’t you think?
    Somebody has been telling them that the election was rigged, that Trump really won but cabals of bad actors in all of those corrupt big cities (especially the ones full of black people) have manipulated election law to tip the scales, that all of the recounts and court rulings – all of them – were somehow compromised. Basically, that the whole world has engaged in a conspiracy to deprive them of their chosen leader.
    Do people have any responsibility at all to think twice about crap like that?
    And if embracing all of that drives them to engage in mob violence, are they somehow not responsible for their own actions?
    We have to break that fear and that image somehow without looking either impotent or like we are punishing them out of proportion to their crimes because of their beliefs.
    I agree. And I think that is going to prove to be really hard to do, because these folks appear to be very, very attached to their beliefs, no matter how outre or fantastical.
    And in the meantime, while we’re all trying to talk these folks down off the ledge wherever that is possible (and it won’t all be possible), we need to make it clear to them that they do not have the right to behave this way.
    They have no such right.
    I can’t make these people stop lapping up the crap that the likes of QAnon and OAN and similar puke fountains spew on a daily basis. I can’t. There is not one damned thing I can do about it.
    I wish there was. There isn’t.
    What I can do is expect and require them to not engage in the kind of crap we’ve seen this week. And, unless we’re pretty damned lucky, we are going to continue to see. Because these folks aren’t done with this bullshit yet, I can promise you that.
    A blood feud implies that there are two parties involved. There aren’t two parties involved. Nobody is threatening these people, nobody is taking their rights away, nobody is preventing them from voting or engaging in public and civic life.
    Nobody is doing a damned thing to them. It’s in their fncking heads.
    There is no feud. They fill their own heads with poison and it makes them insane.
    I am 100% on board with trying to persuade them that none of the shit they believe is real. But I’m not sure how to go about doing that. We have a very liberal reading of freedom of speech in this country, and I completely support that, and that means the QAnons and the OAN’s and all of the social media goons can say whatever they want to say. And I neither have nor want any control over what people choose to read or hear.
    If you have a good idea about how to wean them off the toxic bullshit, all good. I don’t.
    But in the meantime, I by god am not going to accept the idea that these people can threaten the rest of us with violence if they don’t get their way. Which they do, on a daily basis.
    It is not acceptable. You can rant all you want, but when your rants turn into actions, the rest of us get to draw a line.
    It’s long past time to do that.
    I understand that these folks are living in some weird paranoid universe. It’s up to them to change that. Not me. Them.

  113. Tuberville is probably too utterly, flamingly stupid
    That’s my take on Tuberville as well. And they managed (in, admittedly, special circumstances) to elect Doug Jones. Not a stellar record certainly. But better than Kentucky’s.

  114. Tuberville is probably too utterly, flamingly stupid
    That’s my take on Tuberville as well. And they managed (in, admittedly, special circumstances) to elect Doug Jones. Not a stellar record certainly. But better than Kentucky’s.

  115. Somebody has been telling them that the election was rigged, that Trump really won but cabals of bad actors in all of those corrupt big cities (especially the ones full of black people) have manipulated election law to tip the scales, that all of the recounts and court rulings – all of them – were somehow compromised. Basically, that the whole world has engaged in a conspiracy to deprive them of their chosen leader.
    Do people have any responsibility at all to think twice about crap like that?
    And if embracing all of that drives them to engage in mob violence, are they somehow not responsible for their own actions?
    Allow me to suggest a thought experiment. How would these people react if it was black people, or just liberals, who had been wound up by the media they frequent and behaved similarly?
    That doesn’t necessarily justify coming down on them like an avalanche. But it limits my sympathy if that’s what happens.

  116. Somebody has been telling them that the election was rigged, that Trump really won but cabals of bad actors in all of those corrupt big cities (especially the ones full of black people) have manipulated election law to tip the scales, that all of the recounts and court rulings – all of them – were somehow compromised. Basically, that the whole world has engaged in a conspiracy to deprive them of their chosen leader.
    Do people have any responsibility at all to think twice about crap like that?
    And if embracing all of that drives them to engage in mob violence, are they somehow not responsible for their own actions?
    Allow me to suggest a thought experiment. How would these people react if it was black people, or just liberals, who had been wound up by the media they frequent and behaved similarly?
    That doesn’t necessarily justify coming down on them like an avalanche. But it limits my sympathy if that’s what happens.

  117. Basically, that the whole world has engaged in a conspiracy to deprive them of their chosen leader.

    the story they get from the President, from their Representatives, from their Senators, from all the media they consume, possibly from their church, and probably from most of their friends and family is that the election was stolen and that “mainstream media” lies to them. (and they’ve been getting these kinds of stories their entire lives – generations have grown up in the current right wing mythology.

    Do people have any responsibility at all to think twice about crap like that?

    sometimes you’ll read stories about people who break out of cults, and how hard it was for them – to deal with that first doubt that couldn’t be assuaged, to start peeking out of the bubble, to consider what it would mean to break away and leave everything they know behind.
    they need to get out. but it’s not easy.

  118. Basically, that the whole world has engaged in a conspiracy to deprive them of their chosen leader.

    the story they get from the President, from their Representatives, from their Senators, from all the media they consume, possibly from their church, and probably from most of their friends and family is that the election was stolen and that “mainstream media” lies to them. (and they’ve been getting these kinds of stories their entire lives – generations have grown up in the current right wing mythology.

    Do people have any responsibility at all to think twice about crap like that?

    sometimes you’ll read stories about people who break out of cults, and how hard it was for them – to deal with that first doubt that couldn’t be assuaged, to start peeking out of the bubble, to consider what it would mean to break away and leave everything they know behind.
    they need to get out. but it’s not easy.

  119. Look, I think we all need to be clear about what exactly was going on on Wednesday.
    This wasn’t a protest that got out of hand and turned violent. It was an attempt to prevent the peaceful transfer of power, following a legitimate election, conducted according to Constitutional requirements and according to law. An election which afforded ample opportunity to review and challenge results, and in which those opportunities were pursued, in great number, to their lawful conclusions.
    There was an election, their guy lost. They weren’t having that, so they were gonna fnck sh*t up, knock heads, and tell the rest of us how it was gonna be.
    I have no idea how these people thought their actions were going to create the result they wanted. I don’t imagine many of them thought it through to that level of detail. I guess they thought the rest of us would just stand down and accept it, and life would go as if it was 2016 all over again.
    There was an election, they didn’t like the outcome, so they were going to go fix it. With their fists, or more than. That’s what the agenda was.
    That makes this a category of action quite different from, for instance, the violent protests of this past summer. Horrible as they were.
    It’s much closer to, for example, the Wilmington Massacre of 1898, where a bunch of white vigilantes engaged in mob violence to forcefully overthrow the elected government and replaced it with their own.
    I’m not really calling out the racial aspect of that, I’m calling out the coup d’etat aspect of it.
    Folks seem hesitant to refer to the actions of Wednesday as an attempted coup or putsch, mostly because of (a) the comical half-assedness of most of the participants, and (b) how utterly unrealistic it is to imagine it achieving the result they were interested in.
    But I’m not sure what else you call it.
    It was an attempt to prevent the peaceful transfer of power. An attempt to usurp and overthrow the Constitutional process for electing and seating a head of state.
    That is actually a big fncking deal, to coin a phrase.
    What I am consistently struck by in all of this is the bizarre and detached-from-reality sense of entitlement that the folks involved all express. They are ‘we the people’, the ‘real Americans’. The patriots. And they are therefore entitled to reverse the expressed will of everyone else in the country.
    That IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. And will not be accepted. I don’t know how to state that any more clearly or forcefully.
    It will not stand.
    I’m sorry these folks have filled their own heads with toxic paranoid fantasies. I’m sure all of that plays a huge part in their actions.
    But they are responsible for what they did. And what they did was attempt to thwart the Constitutional process of electing and seating the head of state.
    If that isn’t answered forcefully, if it is allowed to stand, then we are in for a world of trouble.
    I’m not sure how else to see it.

  120. Look, I think we all need to be clear about what exactly was going on on Wednesday.
    This wasn’t a protest that got out of hand and turned violent. It was an attempt to prevent the peaceful transfer of power, following a legitimate election, conducted according to Constitutional requirements and according to law. An election which afforded ample opportunity to review and challenge results, and in which those opportunities were pursued, in great number, to their lawful conclusions.
    There was an election, their guy lost. They weren’t having that, so they were gonna fnck sh*t up, knock heads, and tell the rest of us how it was gonna be.
    I have no idea how these people thought their actions were going to create the result they wanted. I don’t imagine many of them thought it through to that level of detail. I guess they thought the rest of us would just stand down and accept it, and life would go as if it was 2016 all over again.
    There was an election, they didn’t like the outcome, so they were going to go fix it. With their fists, or more than. That’s what the agenda was.
    That makes this a category of action quite different from, for instance, the violent protests of this past summer. Horrible as they were.
    It’s much closer to, for example, the Wilmington Massacre of 1898, where a bunch of white vigilantes engaged in mob violence to forcefully overthrow the elected government and replaced it with their own.
    I’m not really calling out the racial aspect of that, I’m calling out the coup d’etat aspect of it.
    Folks seem hesitant to refer to the actions of Wednesday as an attempted coup or putsch, mostly because of (a) the comical half-assedness of most of the participants, and (b) how utterly unrealistic it is to imagine it achieving the result they were interested in.
    But I’m not sure what else you call it.
    It was an attempt to prevent the peaceful transfer of power. An attempt to usurp and overthrow the Constitutional process for electing and seating a head of state.
    That is actually a big fncking deal, to coin a phrase.
    What I am consistently struck by in all of this is the bizarre and detached-from-reality sense of entitlement that the folks involved all express. They are ‘we the people’, the ‘real Americans’. The patriots. And they are therefore entitled to reverse the expressed will of everyone else in the country.
    That IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. And will not be accepted. I don’t know how to state that any more clearly or forcefully.
    It will not stand.
    I’m sorry these folks have filled their own heads with toxic paranoid fantasies. I’m sure all of that plays a huge part in their actions.
    But they are responsible for what they did. And what they did was attempt to thwart the Constitutional process of electing and seating the head of state.
    If that isn’t answered forcefully, if it is allowed to stand, then we are in for a world of trouble.
    I’m not sure how else to see it.

  121. He, Trump and his capos can count on consiglieri Jonathan Turley to defend them in any 2nd impeachment trial:

    The author Franz Kafka once wrote, “My guiding principle is this. Guilt is never to be doubted.” Democrats suddenly appear close to adopting that standard into the Constitution as they prepare for a second impeachment of President Trump. With seeking his removal for incitement, Democrats would gut not only the impeachment standard but also free speech, all in a mad rush to remove Trump just days before his term ends.
    Democrats are seeking to remove Trump on the basis of his remarks to supporters before the rioting at the Capitol. Like others, I condemned those remarks as he gave them, calling them reckless and wrong. I also opposed the challenges to electoral votes in Congress. But his address does not meet the definition for incitement under the criminal code. It would be viewed as protected speech by the Supreme Court.

    Turley is silent on whether Rudy, Paxton, Brooks, and the Trump boys also said nothing that isn’t protected by the 1st Amendment. The only culprits are apparently the dumbasses who invaded the Capitol, and not all of them either.
    It goes without saying that Alan Dershowitz agrees with Turley.
    Protect the Don, blame his dupes, seems to be the needle these exalted shysters want to thread.
    –TP

  122. He, Trump and his capos can count on consiglieri Jonathan Turley to defend them in any 2nd impeachment trial:

    The author Franz Kafka once wrote, “My guiding principle is this. Guilt is never to be doubted.” Democrats suddenly appear close to adopting that standard into the Constitution as they prepare for a second impeachment of President Trump. With seeking his removal for incitement, Democrats would gut not only the impeachment standard but also free speech, all in a mad rush to remove Trump just days before his term ends.
    Democrats are seeking to remove Trump on the basis of his remarks to supporters before the rioting at the Capitol. Like others, I condemned those remarks as he gave them, calling them reckless and wrong. I also opposed the challenges to electoral votes in Congress. But his address does not meet the definition for incitement under the criminal code. It would be viewed as protected speech by the Supreme Court.

    Turley is silent on whether Rudy, Paxton, Brooks, and the Trump boys also said nothing that isn’t protected by the 1st Amendment. The only culprits are apparently the dumbasses who invaded the Capitol, and not all of them either.
    It goes without saying that Alan Dershowitz agrees with Turley.
    Protect the Don, blame his dupes, seems to be the needle these exalted shysters want to thread.
    –TP

  123. And why would so many people conspire to pull of this multilayered ruse when they could just vote?

  124. And why would so many people conspire to pull of this multilayered ruse when they could just vote?

  125. russell – I have never said that what happened was not an attempted coup. I am not asking anyone to minimize what Trump, or the people who showed up and acted in violence, did to provoke, plan, execute, or justify that attempted coup. At no point in any of this am I asking that we lie or paint a picture of events that flatters any of the people involved or that legitimizes their beliefs. I am with you on that hard line.
    I have been fighting against false equivalencies all week with people I care about but no longer trust.
    But I cannot plead for clemency for the angry young man who torches a police car or the wall of an empty federal courthouse (which the right has argued to be a sort of sedition) or who avails himself of a convenient brick in the midst of unrest if I treat Eizabeth from Knoxville the same as I treat Brock.
    Slightly tangential question, but one that I think needs to be tackled…are the (clearest of the) seditionists criminals or political prisoners?

  126. russell – I have never said that what happened was not an attempted coup. I am not asking anyone to minimize what Trump, or the people who showed up and acted in violence, did to provoke, plan, execute, or justify that attempted coup. At no point in any of this am I asking that we lie or paint a picture of events that flatters any of the people involved or that legitimizes their beliefs. I am with you on that hard line.
    I have been fighting against false equivalencies all week with people I care about but no longer trust.
    But I cannot plead for clemency for the angry young man who torches a police car or the wall of an empty federal courthouse (which the right has argued to be a sort of sedition) or who avails himself of a convenient brick in the midst of unrest if I treat Eizabeth from Knoxville the same as I treat Brock.
    Slightly tangential question, but one that I think needs to be tackled…are the (clearest of the) seditionists criminals or political prisoners?

  127. A blood feud implies that there are two parties involved. There aren’t two parties involved. Nobody is threatening these people, nobody is taking their rights away, nobody is preventing them from voting or engaging in public and civic life.
    Blood feuds are rarely symmetrical, but they are still feuds, even if most of the impetus comes from one side and the other side spends most of its time suing for peace.
    There *shouldn’t* be two sides here, but there manifestly are. And the other side will invoke the names of David Dorn and the five officers killed in Dallas by Micah Johnson as evidence that our side has no regard for the peace.
    Blood feuds are not mutual agreements.

  128. A blood feud implies that there are two parties involved. There aren’t two parties involved. Nobody is threatening these people, nobody is taking their rights away, nobody is preventing them from voting or engaging in public and civic life.
    Blood feuds are rarely symmetrical, but they are still feuds, even if most of the impetus comes from one side and the other side spends most of its time suing for peace.
    There *shouldn’t* be two sides here, but there manifestly are. And the other side will invoke the names of David Dorn and the five officers killed in Dallas by Micah Johnson as evidence that our side has no regard for the peace.
    Blood feuds are not mutual agreements.

  129. But I cannot plead for clemency for the angry young man who torches a police car or the wall of an empty federal courthouse (which the right has argued to be a sort of sedition) or who avails himself of a convenient brick in the midst of unrest if I treat Eizabeth from Knoxville the same as I treat Brock.
    I don’t want the left to get a pass for arson either. I wouldn’t argue for clemency. I’d tell that person to stop setting fires.
    are the … seditionists criminals or political prisoners
    They’re seditionists, but we can just charge most of them for their underlying crimes. People can think whatever they want. As cleek stated, that’s been going on for a long time. It’s what they did here that is actionable.
    We are not Northern Ireland. We are not Yugoslavia. These people are Nazis. They have no platform (literally none), and their “grievances” are fantasy. Their purpose is hate and destruction. What they did is terrorism, not politics.

  130. But I cannot plead for clemency for the angry young man who torches a police car or the wall of an empty federal courthouse (which the right has argued to be a sort of sedition) or who avails himself of a convenient brick in the midst of unrest if I treat Eizabeth from Knoxville the same as I treat Brock.
    I don’t want the left to get a pass for arson either. I wouldn’t argue for clemency. I’d tell that person to stop setting fires.
    are the … seditionists criminals or political prisoners
    They’re seditionists, but we can just charge most of them for their underlying crimes. People can think whatever they want. As cleek stated, that’s been going on for a long time. It’s what they did here that is actionable.
    We are not Northern Ireland. We are not Yugoslavia. These people are Nazis. They have no platform (literally none), and their “grievances” are fantasy. Their purpose is hate and destruction. What they did is terrorism, not politics.

  131. Blood feuds are rarely symmetrical, but they are still feuds, even if most of the impetus comes from one side and the other side spends most of its time suing for peace.
    We have nothing to offer them.

  132. Blood feuds are rarely symmetrical, but they are still feuds, even if most of the impetus comes from one side and the other side spends most of its time suing for peace.
    We have nothing to offer them.

  133. I’m not saying that we should ask for clemency for arson. I’m asking if we should label the arsonist a seditionist and accept the view that BLM is a terrorist organization because they organized a protest and someone else came with plans to attack a courthouse?
    And if we do decide to throw the arsonist in federal prison for 10 years as a terrorist, what does that do to his trajectory? Prison radicalizes more than it reforms and it often adds more trauma into the mix.

  134. I’m not saying that we should ask for clemency for arson. I’m asking if we should label the arsonist a seditionist and accept the view that BLM is a terrorist organization because they organized a protest and someone else came with plans to attack a courthouse?
    And if we do decide to throw the arsonist in federal prison for 10 years as a terrorist, what does that do to his trajectory? Prison radicalizes more than it reforms and it often adds more trauma into the mix.

  135. This is the sedition statute. It has to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2384
    It’s instructive too to look at the other crimes in this chapter: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-115
    We have a country. We owe it to each other to preserve its democracy as best we can, and make it more so by enforcing voting rights and free and fair elections, and by working to change institutions that are anti-democratic. We have a template in the Constitution for human rights in case the majority of our citizens turn into people who just want to oppress the rest of us.
    Obviously, our democracy is flawed, but there are shining examples of people trying and succeeding in making it better. The crime of sedition is not applicable to a mostly peaceful protest where some of the crowd either infiltrates, or sabotages the peaceful members of the protest. It’s about the intention of the people attending. The entire purpose of the riot in Washington was to subvert the democratic process. I have no time for both sides do it.

  136. This is the sedition statute. It has to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2384
    It’s instructive too to look at the other crimes in this chapter: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-115
    We have a country. We owe it to each other to preserve its democracy as best we can, and make it more so by enforcing voting rights and free and fair elections, and by working to change institutions that are anti-democratic. We have a template in the Constitution for human rights in case the majority of our citizens turn into people who just want to oppress the rest of us.
    Obviously, our democracy is flawed, but there are shining examples of people trying and succeeding in making it better. The crime of sedition is not applicable to a mostly peaceful protest where some of the crowd either infiltrates, or sabotages the peaceful members of the protest. It’s about the intention of the people attending. The entire purpose of the riot in Washington was to subvert the democratic process. I have no time for both sides do it.

  137. FWIW, I wouldn’t argue for treating Elizabeth from Knoxville the same as Brock.
    Like a lot of people, my opinion about the BLM protests is tempered by my empathy for the anger that a lot of black people in this country feel. Anger which is justified, in many ways.
    That doesn’t mean I think that people who loot, or commit arson, or pick up a brick, should be exempt from the consequences of their actions.
    For that matter, my opinion about Trump supporters is in many cases tempered by my empathy for the things they are angry about. Anger which is also justified, in many ways, although my understanding of all of that likely differs from theirs.
    And, likewise, they aren’t exempt from the consequences of their anger.
    I am not the enemy of Trump supporters. I refuse to consider myself as engaged in a feud with them, whether they want to construe my thoughts about them or my relationship with them in that way.
    I have little to no control over what they think of me.
    They appear to believe things that are not true, and those beliefs have incited them to take actions that are not just illegal, but actually seditious. Some of them surely don’t see it that way, and would be horrified by the idea that their actions could be considered that way. Others seem fine with the idea of a fascistic putsch.
    So, treat them differently. But nobody gets a pass.
    I’ll probably end up saying this a million times before all of this is over with, but it bears saying IMO.
    The kind of action we saw on Wednesday will not stand.
    I’m quite sure we haven’t seen the last of it. I’ll be both surprised and pleased if we get through the inauguration without further violence.
    But it cannot be accepted. It cannot be allowed to go without a response.

  138. FWIW, I wouldn’t argue for treating Elizabeth from Knoxville the same as Brock.
    Like a lot of people, my opinion about the BLM protests is tempered by my empathy for the anger that a lot of black people in this country feel. Anger which is justified, in many ways.
    That doesn’t mean I think that people who loot, or commit arson, or pick up a brick, should be exempt from the consequences of their actions.
    For that matter, my opinion about Trump supporters is in many cases tempered by my empathy for the things they are angry about. Anger which is also justified, in many ways, although my understanding of all of that likely differs from theirs.
    And, likewise, they aren’t exempt from the consequences of their anger.
    I am not the enemy of Trump supporters. I refuse to consider myself as engaged in a feud with them, whether they want to construe my thoughts about them or my relationship with them in that way.
    I have little to no control over what they think of me.
    They appear to believe things that are not true, and those beliefs have incited them to take actions that are not just illegal, but actually seditious. Some of them surely don’t see it that way, and would be horrified by the idea that their actions could be considered that way. Others seem fine with the idea of a fascistic putsch.
    So, treat them differently. But nobody gets a pass.
    I’ll probably end up saying this a million times before all of this is over with, but it bears saying IMO.
    The kind of action we saw on Wednesday will not stand.
    I’m quite sure we haven’t seen the last of it. I’ll be both surprised and pleased if we get through the inauguration without further violence.
    But it cannot be accepted. It cannot be allowed to go without a response.

  139. Prison radicalizes more than it reforms and it often adds more trauma into the mix.
    I applaud you if you’re working on prison reform.

  140. Prison radicalizes more than it reforms and it often adds more trauma into the mix.
    I applaud you if you’re working on prison reform.

  141. … So, treat them differently. But nobody gets a pass.
    I’ll probably end up saying this a million times before all of this is over with, but it bears saying IMO.
    The kind of action we saw on Wednesday will not stand….
    Agreed – my common ground with nous is that you don’t label all of these idiots terrorists (though there’s an argument to be made for that).
    And Trump has to be impeached.

  142. … So, treat them differently. But nobody gets a pass.
    I’ll probably end up saying this a million times before all of this is over with, but it bears saying IMO.
    The kind of action we saw on Wednesday will not stand….
    Agreed – my common ground with nous is that you don’t label all of these idiots terrorists (though there’s an argument to be made for that).
    And Trump has to be impeached.

  145. And Trump has to be impeached.
    On the other hand, everyone could just stop making Trump the center of the story.

  146. And Trump has to be impeached.
    On the other hand, everyone could just stop making Trump the center of the story.

  147. Plus, you know, there is also crap like this.
    Some people just want to see the world burn. They love violence, they love to make other people fear them. They love causing other people pain. They think it makes them strong. It’s like catnip to them. It gives them pleasure.
    Think I’m exaggerating? I don’t think so.
    You know what else? They love Trump, and Trump loves them.
    There needs to be no room for them. None.

  148. Plus, you know, there is also crap like this.
    Some people just want to see the world burn. They love violence, they love to make other people fear them. They love causing other people pain. They think it makes them strong. It’s like catnip to them. It gives them pleasure.
    Think I’m exaggerating? I don’t think so.
    You know what else? They love Trump, and Trump loves them.
    There needs to be no room for them. None.

  149. On the other hand, everyone could just stop making Trump the center of the story.
    Nobody’s arguing that Trump is the whole story. But he really is, in point of fact, the center of it.
    Without him, and his actions and words, this doesn’t happen. You could drop out anybody else involved, and events go forward essentially unchanged. But drop out Trump, and it just doesn’t happen.

  150. On the other hand, everyone could just stop making Trump the center of the story.
    Nobody’s arguing that Trump is the whole story. But he really is, in point of fact, the center of it.
    Without him, and his actions and words, this doesn’t happen. You could drop out anybody else involved, and events go forward essentially unchanged. But drop out Trump, and it just doesn’t happen.

  151. A slight detour, an observation too slender to make a post, but something I want to write.
    It’s morning here, but what Campos wrote at the end of his post linked above has been bouncing around in my head
    https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2021/01/i-love-a-man-in-uniform
    I will add that while I understand dark humor is a way of dealing with stress and anxiety, and that it’s generally good to laugh, it’s unfortunate that so much of the commentary about Wednesday’s events ends up making light of them via jokes about look at these fat old white guys cosplaying an insurrection. They weren’t joking, at all.
    Obviously, we have all been talking about what should be done, but while much of the identifying of the clown-like aspects is black humor, I don’t think that is the only thing that drives it. I can’t give you any specific examples, seeing all the reactions is like drinking from a firehose, but some of those ‘geez what clowns’ seems less akin to black humor and more a defensive reaction. ‘I couldn’t have been responsible for this, because if I had done it, it would have been a lot better organized!’ I guess that the thinking is this is obviously not me, so by pointing out the clown aspects, I am distancing myself from any responsibility.
    These threads then move to liberals expressing their anger (often I see this in a FB and twitter), you get this well this is just a crazy minority and no opinion I have ever had could be connected to what they did. Call this othering by insanity quotient. In a couple of them, they then say that the problem is that liberal condescend, though I’m not sure why calling them clowns isn’t condescending.
    Questions of punishment aside, I draw a line from the constant denigration of the government to these Red Dawn cosplayers. Who is punished is perhaps treating a symptom of a bigger illness.

  152. A slight detour, an observation too slender to make a post, but something I want to write.
    It’s morning here, but what Campos wrote at the end of his post linked above has been bouncing around in my head
    https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2021/01/i-love-a-man-in-uniform
    I will add that while I understand dark humor is a way of dealing with stress and anxiety, and that it’s generally good to laugh, it’s unfortunate that so much of the commentary about Wednesday’s events ends up making light of them via jokes about look at these fat old white guys cosplaying an insurrection. They weren’t joking, at all.
    Obviously, we have all been talking about what should be done, but while much of the identifying of the clown-like aspects is black humor, I don’t think that is the only thing that drives it. I can’t give you any specific examples, seeing all the reactions is like drinking from a firehose, but some of those ‘geez what clowns’ seems less akin to black humor and more a defensive reaction. ‘I couldn’t have been responsible for this, because if I had done it, it would have been a lot better organized!’ I guess that the thinking is this is obviously not me, so by pointing out the clown aspects, I am distancing myself from any responsibility.
    These threads then move to liberals expressing their anger (often I see this in a FB and twitter), you get this well this is just a crazy minority and no opinion I have ever had could be connected to what they did. Call this othering by insanity quotient. In a couple of them, they then say that the problem is that liberal condescend, though I’m not sure why calling them clowns isn’t condescending.
    Questions of punishment aside, I draw a line from the constant denigration of the government to these Red Dawn cosplayers. Who is punished is perhaps treating a symptom of a bigger illness.

  153. The Capitol rioters certainly need to face justice.
    And, upon conviction of the felonies that MANY of them committed, lose their right to possess firearms or to vote.
    FOR LIFE.
    Fines and jail time are okay too, but the punishment should fit the crime.

  154. The Capitol rioters certainly need to face justice.
    And, upon conviction of the felonies that MANY of them committed, lose their right to possess firearms or to vote.
    FOR LIFE.
    Fines and jail time are okay too, but the punishment should fit the crime.

  155. FWIW I’m still trying to get my head around Elizabeth from Knoxville.
    She travels from TN to DC to participate in “storming the Capitol” on the day that Congress is confirming the electoral vote for Biden.
    Because “it’s a revolution”.
    And she’s astounded that, having tried to forcibly cross a police barricade and enter the Capitol – the freaking Capitol of the United States, while the electoral vote for POTUS was being counted – she was pushed and sprayed with pepper spray.
    WHAT THE EVERLIVING F*** ARE THESE PEOPLE THINKING?!?!?!
    Really, WT actual F?!? What freaking planet do these people live on?!?
    I got nothing.
    Does she understand that what she was engaged in was insurrection? Does she understand the magnitude of that? Does she understand how lucky she is not to have been imprisoned, or seriously hurt, or killed?
    What the hell are the Elizabeths of the world playing at? Do they think this is some kind of game?
    Go home, Elizabeth, and godspeed. You’re in over your head.
    My guess is that nothing whatsoever is going to happen to Elizabeth from Knoxville. It’s not unlikely that somebody with a badge will have a conversation with her, and I’m pretty sure that the outcome of that, if there’s nothing more to Elizabeth from Knoxville than what is apparent from the famous video, is that Elizabeth from Knoxville will be sent on her way. With, one hopes, some strong words about the advisability of revolutionary stormings of the Capitol in the future.
    And TBH I’m fine with that. On a scale of 1 to 10, the actual threat to the republic that Elizabeth represents registers somewhere around 0.001.
    These people are like some kind of bizarro world right-wing nutjob version of the folks who thought they would levitate the Pentagon.
    Pro tip: the Pentagon was not levitated. And those folks at least had the excuse of intensive use of hallucinogenics.
    Go home, Elizabeth, before you hurt yourself or somebody else. Get your head out of the puke funnel and find a constructive way to channel your desire for a better world.
    sm freaking h

  156. FWIW I’m still trying to get my head around Elizabeth from Knoxville.
    She travels from TN to DC to participate in “storming the Capitol” on the day that Congress is confirming the electoral vote for Biden.
    Because “it’s a revolution”.
    And she’s astounded that, having tried to forcibly cross a police barricade and enter the Capitol – the freaking Capitol of the United States, while the electoral vote for POTUS was being counted – she was pushed and sprayed with pepper spray.
    WHAT THE EVERLIVING F*** ARE THESE PEOPLE THINKING?!?!?!
    Really, WT actual F?!? What freaking planet do these people live on?!?
    I got nothing.
    Does she understand that what she was engaged in was insurrection? Does she understand the magnitude of that? Does she understand how lucky she is not to have been imprisoned, or seriously hurt, or killed?
    What the hell are the Elizabeths of the world playing at? Do they think this is some kind of game?
    Go home, Elizabeth, and godspeed. You’re in over your head.
    My guess is that nothing whatsoever is going to happen to Elizabeth from Knoxville. It’s not unlikely that somebody with a badge will have a conversation with her, and I’m pretty sure that the outcome of that, if there’s nothing more to Elizabeth from Knoxville than what is apparent from the famous video, is that Elizabeth from Knoxville will be sent on her way. With, one hopes, some strong words about the advisability of revolutionary stormings of the Capitol in the future.
    And TBH I’m fine with that. On a scale of 1 to 10, the actual threat to the republic that Elizabeth represents registers somewhere around 0.001.
    These people are like some kind of bizarro world right-wing nutjob version of the folks who thought they would levitate the Pentagon.
    Pro tip: the Pentagon was not levitated. And those folks at least had the excuse of intensive use of hallucinogenics.
    Go home, Elizabeth, before you hurt yourself or somebody else. Get your head out of the puke funnel and find a constructive way to channel your desire for a better world.
    sm freaking h

  157. And, upon conviction of the felonies that MANY of them committed, lose their right to possess firearms or to vote.
    Call my cynical. But I really do wonder how many of these folks didn’t actually bother to vote in November. Whether because they were so sure that their guy would win (“everybody I know, everybody I see on TV, is for him”) that they didn’t think it was necessary, or for some other reason.
    I don’t have a guess as to how many. But I would bet it’s significantly above zero.

  158. And, upon conviction of the felonies that MANY of them committed, lose their right to possess firearms or to vote.
    Call my cynical. But I really do wonder how many of these folks didn’t actually bother to vote in November. Whether because they were so sure that their guy would win (“everybody I know, everybody I see on TV, is for him”) that they didn’t think it was necessary, or for some other reason.
    I don’t have a guess as to how many. But I would bet it’s significantly above zero.

  159. What the hell are the Elizabeths of the world playing at? Do they think this is some kind of game?
    My same thought about the 147 Republican congresspeople who voted to overthrow an election just because they didn’t like the result.

  160. What the hell are the Elizabeths of the world playing at? Do they think this is some kind of game?
    My same thought about the 147 Republican congresspeople who voted to overthrow an election just because they didn’t like the result.

  163. Including for Elizabeth from Knoxville.
    To be completely transparent, as the management lingo of the day would have it, I’ll say that my first reaction to all of this crap is that the feds should round every damned one of them up and have them up on charges of sedition.
    Including poor deluded Elizabeth of Knoxville.
    Just fucking crush them like bugs. Every one of them. Arrest them, jail with no bail on grounds that they are a menace to society, try them for sedition and insurrection, and let the chips fall where they may.
    And if they want to respond to that by bring their game up, the rest of us will do the same. Want a war? We’ll give you a damned war.
    You think you’re funny, building a gallows across from the Capitol? Think you’re a tough guy?
    Maybe you’d like to hang from it.
    Upon reflection, that seems perhaps a bit extreme. So I’m open to a more measured response.
    But these jerks are really trying the patience of the rest of us.
    This shit needs to stop, and I do mean like yesterday.
    No more of this. No more. It stops, or it will be stopped.

  164. Including for Elizabeth from Knoxville.
    To be completely transparent, as the management lingo of the day would have it, I’ll say that my first reaction to all of this crap is that the feds should round every damned one of them up and have them up on charges of sedition.
    Including poor deluded Elizabeth of Knoxville.
    Just fucking crush them like bugs. Every one of them. Arrest them, jail with no bail on grounds that they are a menace to society, try them for sedition and insurrection, and let the chips fall where they may.
    And if they want to respond to that by bring their game up, the rest of us will do the same. Want a war? We’ll give you a damned war.
    You think you’re funny, building a gallows across from the Capitol? Think you’re a tough guy?
    Maybe you’d like to hang from it.
    Upon reflection, that seems perhaps a bit extreme. So I’m open to a more measured response.
    But these jerks are really trying the patience of the rest of us.
    This shit needs to stop, and I do mean like yesterday.
    No more of this. No more. It stops, or it will be stopped.

  165. Dream on McDuff
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/01/09/kentucky-patriot-rally-armed-protesters-capitol/6610891002/
    They left peacefully, but
    https://www.wsaz.com/2021/01/10/kentucky-house-forming-panel-to-consider-impeachment-petition-filed-against-gov-beshear/
    We’ve talked a lot about Western states here so some folks may want to comment on these two articles
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/09/us-capitol-attackers-violence-rural-west
    https://www.earthisland.org/journal/index.php/articles/entry/the-road-to-capitol-went-through-bundy-ranch

  166. Dream on McDuff
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/01/09/kentucky-patriot-rally-armed-protesters-capitol/6610891002/
    They left peacefully, but
    https://www.wsaz.com/2021/01/10/kentucky-house-forming-panel-to-consider-impeachment-petition-filed-against-gov-beshear/
    We’ve talked a lot about Western states here so some folks may want to comment on these two articles
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/09/us-capitol-attackers-violence-rural-west
    https://www.earthisland.org/journal/index.php/articles/entry/the-road-to-capitol-went-through-bundy-ranch

  167. So I’m open to a more measured response.
    But these jerks are really trying the patience of the rest of us.
    This shit needs to stop, and I do mean like yesterday.
    Part of the reason it keeps going, in my opunion, is that past responses have been TOO “measured.” Experience has taught them that their actions, legal or not, mostly won’t have significant consequences. So why not keep acting out?
    Think about the series of events with the Bundys. In 1993, Bundy stopped renewing his permit to graze cattle on BLM land in Nevada. But kept grazing them there. It took 5 years, until 1998, to get a court order that he stop. Which order he ignored.
    In 2013, because the earlier order had become “stale,” a new court order was obtained. And, of course, ignored. In 2014, BLM started rounding up the illegally grazing cattle. There were armed confrontations, leading to . . . BLM suspending the round up. And Bundy’s cattle were returned, to “de-escalate” the situation. At last count, Bundy owes well over a million dollars in unpaid grazing fees.
    Bundy claims he doesn’t even recognize the US government’s existance. Given his experience, perhaps not surprising.

  168. So I’m open to a more measured response.
    But these jerks are really trying the patience of the rest of us.
    This shit needs to stop, and I do mean like yesterday.
    Part of the reason it keeps going, in my opunion, is that past responses have been TOO “measured.” Experience has taught them that their actions, legal or not, mostly won’t have significant consequences. So why not keep acting out?
    Think about the series of events with the Bundys. In 1993, Bundy stopped renewing his permit to graze cattle on BLM land in Nevada. But kept grazing them there. It took 5 years, until 1998, to get a court order that he stop. Which order he ignored.
    In 2013, because the earlier order had become “stale,” a new court order was obtained. And, of course, ignored. In 2014, BLM started rounding up the illegally grazing cattle. There were armed confrontations, leading to . . . BLM suspending the round up. And Bundy’s cattle were returned, to “de-escalate” the situation. At last count, Bundy owes well over a million dollars in unpaid grazing fees.
    Bundy claims he doesn’t even recognize the US government’s existance. Given his experience, perhaps not surprising.

  171. Since he’s running in Idaho, he’d likely have a good chance. Except for apparently being insufficiently extreme.

  172. Since he’s running in Idaho, he’d likely have a good chance. Except for apparently being insufficiently extreme.

  173. Back to the Capitol with this article
    https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emmanuelfelton/black-capitol-police-racism-mob
    The officer even described coming face to face with police officers from across the country in the mob. He said some of them flashed their badges, telling him to let them through, and trying to explain that this was all part of a movement that was supposed to help.
    “You have the nerve to be holding a blue lives matter flag, and you are out there fucking us up,” he told one group of protestors he encountered inside the Capitol. “[One guy] pulled out his badge and he said, ‘we’re doing this for you.’ Another guy had his badge. So I was like, ‘well, you gotta be kidding.’”
    If they identify people who are police officers from elsewhere from camera footage, I’ve got no problem firing them for cause, even if they were just going to the rally to see their man.

  174. Back to the Capitol with this article
    https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emmanuelfelton/black-capitol-police-racism-mob
    The officer even described coming face to face with police officers from across the country in the mob. He said some of them flashed their badges, telling him to let them through, and trying to explain that this was all part of a movement that was supposed to help.
    “You have the nerve to be holding a blue lives matter flag, and you are out there fucking us up,” he told one group of protestors he encountered inside the Capitol. “[One guy] pulled out his badge and he said, ‘we’re doing this for you.’ Another guy had his badge. So I was like, ‘well, you gotta be kidding.’”
    If they identify people who are police officers from elsewhere from camera footage, I’ve got no problem firing them for cause, even if they were just going to the rally to see their man.

  175. wrs
    I am increasingly convinced that there is no way forward as a country unless we get rid of these treasonous, insane, violent, murderous, shit-smearing, mindless, delusional douchecanoes.
    Staring with their Dear Leader, all of his enablers, and working our way down to Nazi Viking or whatever the hell that horned clown was supposed to be.
    Crushing them like bugs sounds good to me.

  176. wrs
    I am increasingly convinced that there is no way forward as a country unless we get rid of these treasonous, insane, violent, murderous, shit-smearing, mindless, delusional douchecanoes.
    Staring with their Dear Leader, all of his enablers, and working our way down to Nazi Viking or whatever the hell that horned clown was supposed to be.
    Crushing them like bugs sounds good to me.

  179. And, upon conviction of the felonies that MANY of them committed, lose their right to possess firearms or to vote.
    FOR LIFE.
    Fully agree to the first but strongly object to the latter. The right to vote should be sacrosanct. Millions already get disenfranchised because they got into the mills of justice with or without just cause, and it is a favorite tool of voter suppression. On this point I am an absolutist. Clinical insanity or dementia (closely circumscribed)should be the only exceptions.

  180. And, upon conviction of the felonies that MANY of them committed, lose their right to possess firearms or to vote.
    FOR LIFE.
    Fully agree to the first but strongly object to the latter. The right to vote should be sacrosanct. Millions already get disenfranchised because they got into the mills of justice with or without just cause, and it is a favorite tool of voter suppression. On this point I am an absolutist. Clinical insanity or dementia (closely circumscribed)should be the only exceptions.

  181. Since I just stumbled over the number in a different context: About 5.1 million US citizens of voting age were banned from voting due to felony convictions in October 2020. 1.5 million of those in Florida.

  182. Since I just stumbled over the number in a different context: About 5.1 million US citizens of voting age were banned from voting due to felony convictions in October 2020. 1.5 million of those in Florida.

  183. The explanation for Elizabeth from Knoxville is similar to the explanation for many of the Trump actions during his presidency: ignorance. Ignorance of the law, ignorance of what words mean, ignorance of how things work, or are supposed to work. And that last takes you back to the Bundys, who have also been much on my mind. Interesting how the right’s zero tolerance of crimes or breaches of the law is so inconsistent.

  184. The explanation for Elizabeth from Knoxville is similar to the explanation for many of the Trump actions during his presidency: ignorance. Ignorance of the law, ignorance of what words mean, ignorance of how things work, or are supposed to work. And that last takes you back to the Bundys, who have also been much on my mind. Interesting how the right’s zero tolerance of crimes or breaches of the law is so inconsistent.

  185. Yeah, Hartmut, but felonies that involve attacking the integrity of elections should result in loss of voting privilege.
    And that’s what these MAGAts were doing, bigly.

  186. Yeah, Hartmut, but felonies that involve attacking the integrity of elections should result in loss of voting privilege.
    And that’s what these MAGAts were doing, bigly.

  189. What I am consistently struck by in all of this is the bizarre and detached-from-reality sense of entitlement that the folks involved all express. They are ‘we the people’, the ‘real Americans’. The patriots. And they are therefore entitled to reverse the expressed will of everyone else in the country.
    they don’t believe Trump lost, because every source of information they trust says he didn’t.

  190. What I am consistently struck by in all of this is the bizarre and detached-from-reality sense of entitlement that the folks involved all express. They are ‘we the people’, the ‘real Americans’. The patriots. And they are therefore entitled to reverse the expressed will of everyone else in the country.
    they don’t believe Trump lost, because every source of information they trust says he didn’t.

  193. And, upon conviction of the felonies that MANY of them committed…
    Most of them are probably thinking, “I’m white, they’ll plea bargain it down to a misdemeanor, the fine won’t be any more than what I spent on the airfare and hotel.” After the Malheur trials, I’m not sure but what that’s accurate.

  194. And, upon conviction of the felonies that MANY of them committed…
    Most of them are probably thinking, “I’m white, they’ll plea bargain it down to a misdemeanor, the fine won’t be any more than what I spent on the airfare and hotel.” After the Malheur trials, I’m not sure but what that’s accurate.

  195. By now I assume all of you have read this. If not, please do so.
    that was great.
    i’ve been toying with the idea of an NYT subscription. that might have done it. (plus my sister in law is now as associate editor in the food section!)

  196. By now I assume all of you have read this. If not, please do so.
    that was great.
    i’ve been toying with the idea of an NYT subscription. that might have done it. (plus my sister in law is now as associate editor in the food section!)

  197. “I’m white, they’ll plea bargain it down to a misdemeanor, the fine won’t be any more than what I spent on the airfare and hotel.”
    i suspect Biden’s DoJ won’t be eager to bargain with them.

  198. “I’m white, they’ll plea bargain it down to a misdemeanor, the fine won’t be any more than what I spent on the airfare and hotel.”
    i suspect Biden’s DoJ won’t be eager to bargain with them.

  199. Upon reflection, that seems perhaps a bit extreme. So I’m open to a more measured response.
    Even at this point? Perhaps.
    However, we are dealing with incipient fascism, and how do we deal with fascists? Here’s some rather prescient advice.

  200. Upon reflection, that seems perhaps a bit extreme. So I’m open to a more measured response.
    Even at this point? Perhaps.
    However, we are dealing with incipient fascism, and how do we deal with fascists? Here’s some rather prescient advice.

  201. One of the best responses to the whole “our 74 million dupes deserve to be coddled in their ignorant fear and rare” is to look closely at what the scumbags manipulating them have actually been saying. The full text of Dominion’s lawsuit against Sidney Powell is a gold mine in this regard, getting into enough detail to make the best case for actual malice I can recall ever reading.
    https://lawandcrime.com/2020-election/dominion-sues-sidney-powell-for-more-than-1-3-billion-in-first-lawsuit-over-post-election-conspiracy-theories/

  202. One of the best responses to the whole “our 74 million dupes deserve to be coddled in their ignorant fear and rare” is to look closely at what the scumbags manipulating them have actually been saying. The full text of Dominion’s lawsuit against Sidney Powell is a gold mine in this regard, getting into enough detail to make the best case for actual malice I can recall ever reading.
    https://lawandcrime.com/2020-election/dominion-sues-sidney-powell-for-more-than-1-3-billion-in-first-lawsuit-over-post-election-conspiracy-theories/

  203. Since we talk about federal crimes, what would stop Jabbabonk from issuing a general pardon?
    Apart from him not actually caring about the dupes, I mean?

  204. Since we talk about federal crimes, what would stop Jabbabonk from issuing a general pardon?
    Apart from him not actually caring about the dupes, I mean?

  207. every source of information they trust says he didn’t.
    Not an excuse. They are responsible for what they believe and for the actions they take as a result.
    Some of these bastards were hunting members of Congress. Never mind removing their pensions, they need to spend the rest of their lives in prison.
    Does anyone disagree with that?
    The rest of them need to get their heads out of their asses. If this is not a sufficient wake-up call, then I don’t know what is.
    No more freaking excuses for these people.
    Ran an errand this morning, and was treated to a brief interview with some quaint old grandma who drove from AZ to DC for the rally. Because the election was stolen and she wasn’t having it.
    “We’re taking out country back”.
    Taking it back from who? Me? Joe freaking Biden, the most anodyne POTUS imaginable, (D) or (R)?
    People who aren’t like her live here. They are Americans. They have their own interests, which may or may not align with hers, but which are legitimate. And they are entitled to have their interests represented, just like she is.
    It’s not “her country” to the exclusion of everybody who isn’t like her. She has no place to “take it back” from anybody else.
    If these people can’t get that through their fucking heads, then this country is going to fail. It’s going to fall apart, possibly through bloodshed.
    Does that seem extreme? It’s not. It’s a real possibility.
    The points about the Bundys are apt, IMO. A lazy-ass rancher who didn’t want to pay the rent for putting his cows out on public grazing land was allowed to face down the federal government, because he called a bunch of free-lance vigilante militia boyos to the scene, and nobody wanted to press the point.
    And now we get to live with the public life of the nation being held hostage by unaccountable bands of violent dickheads. Not to exclude the dude running for office in ID.
    My druthers, membership in or affiliation with a private militia should be a bar to holding elected office. Or, actually, should be an invitation to prison. Our tolerance of private unaccountable free-lance armies is absolutely insane.
    Anyone disagree?
    Members of Congress, having met to enact the peaceful transfer of power in accordance with our Constitution and laws, were forced to run and hide in order to avoid being assaulted, and likely kidnapped or murdered. In the halls of the Capitol.
    I’m not looking for a fight with anybody, but it seems to me that a fight has been brought to me and people like me. There is bugger-all that I can do to get these people to stop filling their heads with toxic bullshit. It’s up to them. They have to do it.
    I don’t know if they will, or not, but I’m not really willing to put up with much more of this. I’m not really sure what “not putting up with it” looks like, exactly, but I’m wondering if I need to start considering things I would never have imagined I’d need to consider.
    This event needs to be rolled up with vigor and with no concession given to threats of further violence. The (R) party needs a serious head-check, and they need to purge themselves of treasonous opportunistic bastards like Cruz and Hawley and their pals in the House. Grandma from AZ needs to get her head out of her social media bubble and accept the fact that other people, people who aren’t like her, have a claim on this country and on its laws and policies.
    All of that. Or else there is no way forward.
    This bullshit is not acceptable.

  208. every source of information they trust says he didn’t.
    Not an excuse. They are responsible for what they believe and for the actions they take as a result.
    Some of these bastards were hunting members of Congress. Never mind removing their pensions, they need to spend the rest of their lives in prison.
    Does anyone disagree with that?
    The rest of them need to get their heads out of their asses. If this is not a sufficient wake-up call, then I don’t know what is.
    No more freaking excuses for these people.
    Ran an errand this morning, and was treated to a brief interview with some quaint old grandma who drove from AZ to DC for the rally. Because the election was stolen and she wasn’t having it.
    “We’re taking out country back”.
    Taking it back from who? Me? Joe freaking Biden, the most anodyne POTUS imaginable, (D) or (R)?
    People who aren’t like her live here. They are Americans. They have their own interests, which may or may not align with hers, but which are legitimate. And they are entitled to have their interests represented, just like she is.
    It’s not “her country” to the exclusion of everybody who isn’t like her. She has no place to “take it back” from anybody else.
    If these people can’t get that through their fucking heads, then this country is going to fail. It’s going to fall apart, possibly through bloodshed.
    Does that seem extreme? It’s not. It’s a real possibility.
    The points about the Bundys are apt, IMO. A lazy-ass rancher who didn’t want to pay the rent for putting his cows out on public grazing land was allowed to face down the federal government, because he called a bunch of free-lance vigilante militia boyos to the scene, and nobody wanted to press the point.
    And now we get to live with the public life of the nation being held hostage by unaccountable bands of violent dickheads. Not to exclude the dude running for office in ID.
    My druthers, membership in or affiliation with a private militia should be a bar to holding elected office. Or, actually, should be an invitation to prison. Our tolerance of private unaccountable free-lance armies is absolutely insane.
    Anyone disagree?
    Members of Congress, having met to enact the peaceful transfer of power in accordance with our Constitution and laws, were forced to run and hide in order to avoid being assaulted, and likely kidnapped or murdered. In the halls of the Capitol.
    I’m not looking for a fight with anybody, but it seems to me that a fight has been brought to me and people like me. There is bugger-all that I can do to get these people to stop filling their heads with toxic bullshit. It’s up to them. They have to do it.
    I don’t know if they will, or not, but I’m not really willing to put up with much more of this. I’m not really sure what “not putting up with it” looks like, exactly, but I’m wondering if I need to start considering things I would never have imagined I’d need to consider.
    This event needs to be rolled up with vigor and with no concession given to threats of further violence. The (R) party needs a serious head-check, and they need to purge themselves of treasonous opportunistic bastards like Cruz and Hawley and their pals in the House. Grandma from AZ needs to get her head out of her social media bubble and accept the fact that other people, people who aren’t like her, have a claim on this country and on its laws and policies.
    All of that. Or else there is no way forward.
    This bullshit is not acceptable.

  209. Some of these bastards were hunting members of Congress. Never mind removing their pensions, they need to spend the rest of their lives in prison.
    Does anyone disagree with that?
    no.
    but if the question is why they think ridiculous things, the answer is: they literally believe them to be true because, bubble.
    All of that. Or else there is no way forward.
    This bullshit is not acceptable.
    100%
    not sure millions of people are going to find it in themselves to renounce their faith in Republicanism, though. among other things, it would mean admitting the Democrats were right. and, you know…

  210. Some of these bastards were hunting members of Congress. Never mind removing their pensions, they need to spend the rest of their lives in prison.
    Does anyone disagree with that?
    no.
    but if the question is why they think ridiculous things, the answer is: they literally believe them to be true because, bubble.
    All of that. Or else there is no way forward.
    This bullshit is not acceptable.
    100%
    not sure millions of people are going to find it in themselves to renounce their faith in Republicanism, though. among other things, it would mean admitting the Democrats were right. and, you know…

  213. i don’t like to hope. but, maybe it really was all about Trump. and maybe the GOP base just won’t be satisfied with the pale imitations they’re going to be overrun with in the next few elections. maybe they’ll elect some people who actually believe in the country more than they believe in Republicanism.

  214. i don’t like to hope. but, maybe it really was all about Trump. and maybe the GOP base just won’t be satisfied with the pale imitations they’re going to be overrun with in the next few elections. maybe they’ll elect some people who actually believe in the country more than they believe in Republicanism.

  215. but, maybe it really was all about Trump.
    The arc of the history of the Conservative Movement since Goldwater (Brown v Board lit the fuse), it’s high priest (Ronnie) and the political institution it has co-opted (The Republican Party) argues otherwise. It is embarked on a road whose path and ultimate goal should be clear to all by now.

  216. but, maybe it really was all about Trump.
    The arc of the history of the Conservative Movement since Goldwater (Brown v Board lit the fuse), it’s high priest (Ronnie) and the political institution it has co-opted (The Republican Party) argues otherwise. It is embarked on a road whose path and ultimate goal should be clear to all by now.

  219. BuzzFeed News spoke to two Black officers who described a harrowing day in which they were forced to endure racist abuse — including repeatedly being called the n-word — as they tried to do their job of protecting the Capitol building, and by extension the very functioning of American democracy. The officers said they were wrong footed, fighting off an invading force that their managers had downplayed, and not prepared them for.
    …
    The officer even described coming face to face with police officers from across the country in the mob. He said some of them flashed their badges, telling him to let them through, and trying to explain that this was all part of a movement that was supposed to help.
    “You have the nerve to be holding a blue lives matter flag, and you are out there fucking us up,” he told one group of protestors he encountered inside the Capitol. “[One guy] pulled out his badge and he said, ‘we’re doing this for you.’ Another guy had his badge. So I was like, ‘well, you gotta be kidding.’”
    …
    In the seven years since Black Lives Matter has become a rallying cry, the image of a white cop, deciding how and when to enforce law and order, has become ubiquitous. On Wednesday, Americans saw something different, as Black officers tried to do the same, as they attempted to protect the very heart of American democracy. And instead of being honored by the supporters of a man who likes to call himself the “law and order” president, Black Capitol officers found themselves under attack.
    “I got called a nigger 15 times today,” the veteran officer shouted in the rotunda to no one in particular. “Trump did this and we got all of these fucking people in our department that voted for him. How the fuck can you support him?”
    “I cried for about 15 minutes and I just let it out.”

  220. BuzzFeed News spoke to two Black officers who described a harrowing day in which they were forced to endure racist abuse — including repeatedly being called the n-word — as they tried to do their job of protecting the Capitol building, and by extension the very functioning of American democracy. The officers said they were wrong footed, fighting off an invading force that their managers had downplayed, and not prepared them for.
    …
    The officer even described coming face to face with police officers from across the country in the mob. He said some of them flashed their badges, telling him to let them through, and trying to explain that this was all part of a movement that was supposed to help.
    “You have the nerve to be holding a blue lives matter flag, and you are out there fucking us up,” he told one group of protestors he encountered inside the Capitol. “[One guy] pulled out his badge and he said, ‘we’re doing this for you.’ Another guy had his badge. So I was like, ‘well, you gotta be kidding.’”
    …
    In the seven years since Black Lives Matter has become a rallying cry, the image of a white cop, deciding how and when to enforce law and order, has become ubiquitous. On Wednesday, Americans saw something different, as Black officers tried to do the same, as they attempted to protect the very heart of American democracy. And instead of being honored by the supporters of a man who likes to call himself the “law and order” president, Black Capitol officers found themselves under attack.
    “I got called a nigger 15 times today,” the veteran officer shouted in the rotunda to no one in particular. “Trump did this and we got all of these fucking people in our department that voted for him. How the fuck can you support him?”
    “I cried for about 15 minutes and I just let it out.”

  223. Excellent NYT piece, bobbyp. But it’s instructive that both our Trump-hating conservatives do not read the NYT, and one of them at least does not even recognise it as a reasonably accurate provider of facts. This is one of the aspects of the post-truth, Fake News, “the media are the enemy of the people” universe we now live in that worries me most.

  224. Excellent NYT piece, bobbyp. But it’s instructive that both our Trump-hating conservatives do not read the NYT, and one of them at least does not even recognise it as a reasonably accurate provider of facts. This is one of the aspects of the post-truth, Fake News, “the media are the enemy of the people” universe we now live in that worries me most.

  227. both our Trump-hating conservatives do not read the NYT
    The article in question is by Timothy Snyder, who has spent much of the last several years researching fascism and other forms of totalitarianism in the mid-20th C.
    I.e., Hitler and Stalin.
    He is worth reading, whether you like the NYT or not.

  228. both our Trump-hating conservatives do not read the NYT
    The article in question is by Timothy Snyder, who has spent much of the last several years researching fascism and other forms of totalitarianism in the mid-20th C.
    I.e., Hitler and Stalin.
    He is worth reading, whether you like the NYT or not.

  229. If they identify people who are police officers from elsewhere from camera footage, I’ve got no problem firing them for cause, even if they were just going to the rally to see their man.
    If they just went to the rally to see their man, no problem. And no consequences. (I may think they’re nuts to support him. But that’s their right.)
    HOWEVER, if they participated in storming the Capitol, that’s an entirely different deal. No matter if they are too ignorant, or too delusional, to realize it.

  230. If they identify people who are police officers from elsewhere from camera footage, I’ve got no problem firing them for cause, even if they were just going to the rally to see their man.
    If they just went to the rally to see their man, no problem. And no consequences. (I may think they’re nuts to support him. But that’s their right.)
    HOWEVER, if they participated in storming the Capitol, that’s an entirely different deal. No matter if they are too ignorant, or too delusional, to realize it.

  231. meanwhile, this guy drove his car into a crowd of BLM protestors, and skates.

    Stepanek’s attorney John Bruzek said his client was influenced by social media and political rhetoric characterizing the protesters as dangerous criminals. Stepanek initially believed he was legally justified but has come to see he was wrong and apologized, Bruzek said.

    So filling your head with bullshit is now a legal defense if you decide to plow through a crowd with your car.
    Nice that he apologized, I guess.

  232. meanwhile, this guy drove his car into a crowd of BLM protestors, and skates.

    Stepanek’s attorney John Bruzek said his client was influenced by social media and political rhetoric characterizing the protesters as dangerous criminals. Stepanek initially believed he was legally justified but has come to see he was wrong and apologized, Bruzek said.

    So filling your head with bullshit is now a legal defense if you decide to plow through a crowd with your car.
    Nice that he apologized, I guess.

  233. And, upon conviction of the felonies that MANY of them committed, lose their right to possess firearms or to vote.
    FOR LIFE.
    Hartmut: Fully agree to the first but strongly object to the latter.
    I tend to agree. Give them a decade or two in prison (where they definitely do NOT get to vote). But once they’ve served their time (including parole), then they get their right to vote back – as a Federal matter. Not just as a general matter of principle, but because the opportunity for abuse is just too large.
    Which might make the right wing in Florida rethink their opposition to ex-felons voting in their state. 🙂

  234. And, upon conviction of the felonies that MANY of them committed, lose their right to possess firearms or to vote.
    FOR LIFE.
    Hartmut: Fully agree to the first but strongly object to the latter.
    I tend to agree. Give them a decade or two in prison (where they definitely do NOT get to vote). But once they’ve served their time (including parole), then they get their right to vote back – as a Federal matter. Not just as a general matter of principle, but because the opportunity for abuse is just too large.
    Which might make the right wing in Florida rethink their opposition to ex-felons voting in their state. 🙂

  235. both our Trump-hating conservatives do not read the NYT
    Can’t speak for the other conservatives here, obviously. But I don’t read it simply because I’m too cheap to pay for it. I figure I’ve got other reliable sources of accurate information. “Mainstream media” sources, just for the record.

  236. both our Trump-hating conservatives do not read the NYT
    Can’t speak for the other conservatives here, obviously. But I don’t read it simply because I’m too cheap to pay for it. I figure I’ve got other reliable sources of accurate information. “Mainstream media” sources, just for the record.

  239. I managed to read the NYT piece for free, simply by clicking on bobbyp’s link. I don’t know if it’s a matter of getting to read a few articles a month without a subscription or if that piece was opened up to everyone because of its importance. Either way, I’m glad I got to read it. Thanks, bobbyp.

  240. I managed to read the NYT piece for free, simply by clicking on bobbyp’s link. I don’t know if it’s a matter of getting to read a few articles a month without a subscription or if that piece was opened up to everyone because of its importance. Either way, I’m glad I got to read it. Thanks, bobbyp.

  241. Tim Snyder (did Bobbyp beat me to it. Good on him.)
    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/09/magazine/trump-coup.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
    “Starting with their Dear Leader, all of his enablers, and working our way down to Nazi Viking or whatever the hell that horned clown was supposed to be.”
    Please, let’s respect the trick AND the treat and not hurt conservative/snowflake feefees.
    The subhuman’s formal title is the Grand Shaman of QAnon, the ubiquitous skid mark of our tacky, parlous, but no less deadly times, much as the semi-fictional furious knitter Madame Defarge was a permanent sight for popped sore eyes in the severed heads plopping into baskets at her feet during the Reign of Terror, brought to you by the Committee of Public Safety and Security, which sounds suspiciously like the title House and Senate Republicans would give to a piece of legislation that eviscerates OSHA regs while paying fake dumb grifting Christian tribute to unionless meatpacking line workers on ventilators who share one thumb between them from unavoidable but forced workplace accidents, or slashes taxes while extolling the revenue-generating bounty of less revenue, the f*cking stinking liars ….. also as much as Tom Delay, John Kasich, Bill Bennett, Grover Norquist, Pat Buchanan (my god, the heads-up-their-asses contortions they are twisting themselves into over at fascist TAC, as they try to absorb the Capitol Hill putsch by their the conservative brethren they have incited for years, while maintaining their f*cked up “principles”; R.D., I can’t say his name any longer, is fit to be tied, as he rubs rationalizing salve on his self-inflicted fake Christian stigmata) and a cast of thousands of maskless conservative movement insurrectionists and superspreaders, godfathers and mothers to this inevitable, inexorable violent Trump apotheosis were ubiquitous sidekicks to the utterly evil Newt Gingrich, still with us, exuding poison from every reptilian gland and pore during the Jacobin/Oklahoma City terror of the 1990’s, also, let us note, terror from within government by government-hating scum AGAINST the government paying THEM with MY f*cking tax dollars to f*ck me, and to appear bipartisan, balanced, unbiased and both sides politically correct out of cackling respect for the tender right wing snowflakes out there … much as the dear Wavy Gravy was a ubiquitous presence during the 1960s and early 1970s demonstrations, concerts, and utterly useless levitations of government buildings (the filing cabinets inside were too heavy) except that sweet man had not a violent, sadistic bone in his body and brought something to that movement that THIS tone-deaf conservative dogsh*t putsch lacks in full … some good music.
    I mean, WAS there any music, decent or otherwise, accompanying the coup attempt orchestrated from inside the White House and by the above-all-law chief executives’ co-conspirators among Senate and House Republican lunatics AND among federal law enforcement and security and military agencies, including the assorted Dreyfus’s bringing home a taxpayer paycheck among the inside job Capitol police leadership, all stinking republicans, I’m quite certain, if we examine their voting records, which we should do to learn who is on whose side once and for all, because until we learn that, we can’t hand out uniforms for the formally declared Civil War.
    Listen to the cool key modulation in this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T59hsln7nlc
    What did we expect exactly when one of our founding myths is a bunch of Antifa wanna-be Tea Party looters throwing perfectly good tea overboard into Boston Harbor while dressed as fake Native American warriors, like our shaman buddy,and this entire country found time from reneging on Reconstruction and inscribing into hard f*cking law Confederate Jim Crow institutional racism, in order to build statuary to “honor” (that dumb, self-adulatory, self-dramatizing chest-beating Scots/Irish Southern confederate slave-owning confection) traitors to this country, who if Wilkes Booth, the Founder of the modern Republican Party, hadn’t murdered Lincoln, were standing in line for five years of Civil War to do the same and worse, overthrow the government of the United States.
    Note: I am in favor of Robert E. Lee statues being removed from town squares everywhere, but preserved in a museum of renowned military Generals, alongside Erwin Rommel, Colonel Sanders, Patton, Custer, Võ Nguyên Giáp and all of the other notables.
    A word about taxes (Norquist remains public enemy #1 in my ledger; trump is a mere hashtag next to that evil cuck): Make a graph. Label the x-axis “tax rates”. Label the y-axis “anger and fury against government”. The time line would start on the day Kennedy started the long decline in tax rates in 1961, continues thru all of the interim, well-documented bullsh*t, and goes right to this minute.
    Note how as tax (the bane of all right-thinking Americans) rates have been slashed steadily through time, high on the left side of the graph and plunging to the right corner on the x-axis, a steadily rising line tracing an ever-building fury and anger at government, relatively low at the left-hand corner and rising like a blimp with a faulty gas valve to the upper right hand side of the graph.
    I don’t know. What accounts for that inverse relationship. Coincidence? Or Causation?
    The conservative movement has accomplished, via the governance destroying Norquist pledge, all they wanted in slashing taxes and revenue to government and yet the same villains work overtime to fluff the everhard erections of anti-American government haters.
    This is an illustration of why conservatives cannot be lived with. They get everything they want and it is NEVER enough, merely a down payment on their next uncompromising demand, or else. Remember we have all the guns, motherf*ckers, they remind us incessantly, the armed prats.
    But THEY are the victims. THEY are the put-upon martyrs, nurturing their own martyrdom and ripping off the bandaids covering their stigmatas to keep them freshly bleeding and from scabbing over, like the insane anorexic young women sanctified by the perverted Catholic Church and who, in their filthy cells on filthy rations at the funny farms constantly upped the ante in their addlepated quests for sainthood, by licking and polishing the polluted floors of their cells with their bleeding tongues and jamming those same tongues into cracks in the walls to eat spiders hiding therein.
    See the essay/book review “Some Girls Want Out: The Hairshirt Sisterhood” in: https://www.amazon.com/Mantel-Pieces-Bodies-Writing-London/dp/0008429979
    I nominate Mantel as the poet laureate and chronicler of this moment, should she choose to take on the burden.
    Yes. The Bundys. Just so. They got off easy, like trump has all his life and will still, to live another day to fester their martyrhood. But, if law enforcement had gunned all of them down at the Malheur and fed their remains to the endangered tortoises who own the place, or whatever, that too would have elevated them to martyhood.
    We can’t win. They are just as dangerous dead as alive, just as martyred super spreader mask-defying republicans are just as dangerous in the minority as they are in the majority.
    Their grievances assuaged pisses them off even more than their grievances ignored and their violent actions given a pass for the sake of some future imaginary comity because our natural inclinations are to not buy trouble and hope all is a passing phase, like teenage glue-huffing.
    Yes. Prosecute the insurrectionists for their individual criminal acts.
    But these are not your run-of-the-mill criminals like shoplifters, car thieves, and smugglers, the latter of whom don’t have political ideologies. The latter are anti-government only in the sense that their activities are interdicted by an inconvenient government. These ilk are serious motherf*ckers.
    Let’s not forget, however, that the early Nazis, the early rebel Bolsheviks, the early confederate rabblerousers, the nascent Khmer Rouge, pick any murderous cult, were all dismissed and derided as clowns, showboats, fantasists. Many among the early phases were in fact petty criminals, in and out of prison, Hitler himself, for years, for example.
    Their ideological ardor was not nipped in the bud in the least by enforcing criminal indictments against them.
    These ilk do not go away under their own power. They do not stand down.
    Prosecute the breaking of windows all you like during Kristallnacht. You’d be boosting the German glazing industry, sure .. while perfectly missing the point.
    Just so, these scum.
    I’m nearly done.
    FOX News and their horrid media sisters must be abolished, root and branch. Murdoch must be deported.
    Yeah, be careful what I wish for, right, First Amendment purists?
    Next you’ll be telling me Joseph Goebbels had rights too as he murdered his own children as Allied Forces closed in to permanently shut his mouth about killing Jews.
    I can’t buy large amounts of fertilizer and rat poison for fear of my intent.
    Just so with the explosive poisons spewed from the puke funnel at FOX News.
    I’ve noted this before, and I apologize that I can no longer find the video clips from at least two decades ago. It was in my favorites, since deleted by a succession of new computers.
    It is of Grover Norquist and a very young Tucker Carlson, tittering in adoration of Norquist like a kneeling sorority girl at a frat boy hazing, interviewing a roster of four republican candidates for, if I remember correctly, either the US House or a state legislative office. Norquist is grilling the four, three males and one female, all experiencing the visible sheens of flop sweats, about their personal weapons arsenals, in that stern, authoritarian straight mug mouth of his, which was not tolerating any hesitation on the candidates’ parts about any hesitations that might have about the line of questioning. Each one described, lovingly, each weapon, multiples of them, many semi-automatic and automatic (at the time), they kept at the ready, in their gun cabinets.
    As Carlson giggled that high-pitched nerd thing he does (like Buchanan, Carlson rails against Washington elites, but like Buchanan is a born son of Washington elite insiders and heir to elite fortunes) it was obvious that Norquist was NOT so much concerned with grouse-hunting or personal self-defense as the function of these weapons, but how those weapons were the bulwark to be used against government and government employees.
    Around the same time, I saved a clip from C-Span in which some poe-faced Brian Lamb wanna be, maybe Lamb himself, interviews Norquist about farm subsidies and when the interviewer muses about what might happen if farm subsidies are not immediately withdrawn, Norquist said, “Well then, the government will be facing five million armed and angry farmers and ranchers.”
    What happened last week is nothing new with the conservative movement. They have been insurrectionists, threatening insurrectionist violence against the government and government employees since Daddy Koch returned from Germany and Russia to peddle his citizen’s united rat poison and Robert Welch declared governance by man the enemy of Man.
    It is the plain fact [that] there are no conservative or reactionary ideas in general circulation” but only “irritable mental gestures which seem to resemble ideas.”
    Funny-looking furry hatted asses I can kick.
    It’s the Norquists that are ultimately going to be mine and must be the declared enemies of America.
    In the meantime, even though my personal opinion is that altering the Electoral College apparatus should be approached cautiously (I’m conservative that way, but mainly because the modern noxious republican party is three steps ahead of all of us in the ruination game and will find ways to turn THAT to their malignant advantage as well), I suggest the home states of each and every one of the insurrectionists who violated the Capitol with intent to kidnap and murder (gotta say, it gave me a thrilling frisson up the spine imagining Pence tied to a chair with some wadded up legislative drafts stuffed in his Trump-fellating mouth, surveying the scene, through clouds of teargas, with that smug, dumb, ever-present rictus of fake, cynical grifting Christian holier than thou all-American stupidity frozen on his face as he contemplated in that barely flickering one-celled rodent he calls a brain how he arrived at his moment in infamy; like the clueless lady in this cartoon is nitwit blockhead Pence. God, he must be a stallion in bed for his poor wife to still give it up to him):
    https://condenaststore.com/featured/we-had-rats-liana-finck.html
    ………… be identified. and for every one individual breaking shit in Washington D.C. on January 6, one electoral vote be subtracted from their total electoral vote allowances.
    That should put the smaller western red
    states out of business and with any luck hobble Florida and Texas, who sent caravans (and NOT the good kind consisting of besieged Latin Americans, otherwise known as better US citizens than any so-called republican citizen interviewed in diners across America by New York Times reporters) and the other big red states for the rest of the century.
    January 17th is a QAnon annivesary. Much is planned.
    We ain’t seen nothin yet.

  242. Tim Snyder (did Bobbyp beat me to it. Good on him.)
    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/09/magazine/trump-coup.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
    “Starting with their Dear Leader, all of his enablers, and working our way down to Nazi Viking or whatever the hell that horned clown was supposed to be.”
    Please, let’s respect the trick AND the treat and not hurt conservative/snowflake feefees.
    The subhuman’s formal title is the Grand Shaman of QAnon, the ubiquitous skid mark of our tacky, parlous, but no less deadly times, much as the semi-fictional furious knitter Madame Defarge was a permanent sight for popped sore eyes in the severed heads plopping into baskets at her feet during the Reign of Terror, brought to you by the Committee of Public Safety and Security, which sounds suspiciously like the title House and Senate Republicans would give to a piece of legislation that eviscerates OSHA regs while paying fake dumb grifting Christian tribute to unionless meatpacking line workers on ventilators who share one thumb between them from unavoidable but forced workplace accidents, or slashes taxes while extolling the revenue-generating bounty of less revenue, the f*cking stinking liars ….. also as much as Tom Delay, John Kasich, Bill Bennett, Grover Norquist, Pat Buchanan (my god, the heads-up-their-asses contortions they are twisting themselves into over at fascist TAC, as they try to absorb the Capitol Hill putsch by their the conservative brethren they have incited for years, while maintaining their f*cked up “principles”; R.D., I can’t say his name any longer, is fit to be tied, as he rubs rationalizing salve on his self-inflicted fake Christian stigmata) and a cast of thousands of maskless conservative movement insurrectionists and superspreaders, godfathers and mothers to this inevitable, inexorable violent Trump apotheosis were ubiquitous sidekicks to the utterly evil Newt Gingrich, still with us, exuding poison from every reptilian gland and pore during the Jacobin/Oklahoma City terror of the 1990’s, also, let us note, terror from within government by government-hating scum AGAINST the government paying THEM with MY f*cking tax dollars to f*ck me, and to appear bipartisan, balanced, unbiased and both sides politically correct out of cackling respect for the tender right wing snowflakes out there … much as the dear Wavy Gravy was a ubiquitous presence during the 1960s and early 1970s demonstrations, concerts, and utterly useless levitations of government buildings (the filing cabinets inside were too heavy) except that sweet man had not a violent, sadistic bone in his body and brought something to that movement that THIS tone-deaf conservative dogsh*t putsch lacks in full … some good music.
    I mean, WAS there any music, decent or otherwise, accompanying the coup attempt orchestrated from inside the White House and by the above-all-law chief executives’ co-conspirators among Senate and House Republican lunatics AND among federal law enforcement and security and military agencies, including the assorted Dreyfus’s bringing home a taxpayer paycheck among the inside job Capitol police leadership, all stinking republicans, I’m quite certain, if we examine their voting records, which we should do to learn who is on whose side once and for all, because until we learn that, we can’t hand out uniforms for the formally declared Civil War.
    Listen to the cool key modulation in this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T59hsln7nlc
    What did we expect exactly when one of our founding myths is a bunch of Antifa wanna-be Tea Party looters throwing perfectly good tea overboard into Boston Harbor while dressed as fake Native American warriors, like our shaman buddy,and this entire country found time from reneging on Reconstruction and inscribing into hard f*cking law Confederate Jim Crow institutional racism, in order to build statuary to “honor” (that dumb, self-adulatory, self-dramatizing chest-beating Scots/Irish Southern confederate slave-owning confection) traitors to this country, who if Wilkes Booth, the Founder of the modern Republican Party, hadn’t murdered Lincoln, were standing in line for five years of Civil War to do the same and worse, overthrow the government of the United States.
    Note: I am in favor of Robert E. Lee statues being removed from town squares everywhere, but preserved in a museum of renowned military Generals, alongside Erwin Rommel, Colonel Sanders, Patton, Custer, Võ Nguyên Giáp and all of the other notables.
    A word about taxes (Norquist remains public enemy #1 in my ledger; trump is a mere hashtag next to that evil cuck): Make a graph. Label the x-axis “tax rates”. Label the y-axis “anger and fury against government”. The time line would start on the day Kennedy started the long decline in tax rates in 1961, continues thru all of the interim, well-documented bullsh*t, and goes right to this minute.
    Note how as tax (the bane of all right-thinking Americans) rates have been slashed steadily through time, high on the left side of the graph and plunging to the right corner on the x-axis, a steadily rising line tracing an ever-building fury and anger at government, relatively low at the left-hand corner and rising like a blimp with a faulty gas valve to the upper right hand side of the graph.
    I don’t know. What accounts for that inverse relationship. Coincidence? Or Causation?
    The conservative movement has accomplished, via the governance destroying Norquist pledge, all they wanted in slashing taxes and revenue to government and yet the same villains work overtime to fluff the everhard erections of anti-American government haters.
    This is an illustration of why conservatives cannot be lived with. They get everything they want and it is NEVER enough, merely a down payment on their next uncompromising demand, or else. Remember we have all the guns, motherf*ckers, they remind us incessantly, the armed prats.
    But THEY are the victims. THEY are the put-upon martyrs, nurturing their own martyrdom and ripping off the bandaids covering their stigmatas to keep them freshly bleeding and from scabbing over, like the insane anorexic young women sanctified by the perverted Catholic Church and who, in their filthy cells on filthy rations at the funny farms constantly upped the ante in their addlepated quests for sainthood, by licking and polishing the polluted floors of their cells with their bleeding tongues and jamming those same tongues into cracks in the walls to eat spiders hiding therein.
    See the essay/book review “Some Girls Want Out: The Hairshirt Sisterhood” in: https://www.amazon.com/Mantel-Pieces-Bodies-Writing-London/dp/0008429979
    I nominate Mantel as the poet laureate and chronicler of this moment, should she choose to take on the burden.
    Yes. The Bundys. Just so. They got off easy, like trump has all his life and will still, to live another day to fester their martyrhood. But, if law enforcement had gunned all of them down at the Malheur and fed their remains to the endangered tortoises who own the place, or whatever, that too would have elevated them to martyhood.
    We can’t win. They are just as dangerous dead as alive, just as martyred super spreader mask-defying republicans are just as dangerous in the minority as they are in the majority.
    Their grievances assuaged pisses them off even more than their grievances ignored and their violent actions given a pass for the sake of some future imaginary comity because our natural inclinations are to not buy trouble and hope all is a passing phase, like teenage glue-huffing.
    Yes. Prosecute the insurrectionists for their individual criminal acts.
    But these are not your run-of-the-mill criminals like shoplifters, car thieves, and smugglers, the latter of whom don’t have political ideologies. The latter are anti-government only in the sense that their activities are interdicted by an inconvenient government. These ilk are serious motherf*ckers.
    Let’s not forget, however, that the early Nazis, the early rebel Bolsheviks, the early confederate rabblerousers, the nascent Khmer Rouge, pick any murderous cult, were all dismissed and derided as clowns, showboats, fantasists. Many among the early phases were in fact petty criminals, in and out of prison, Hitler himself, for years, for example.
    Their ideological ardor was not nipped in the bud in the least by enforcing criminal indictments against them.
    These ilk do not go away under their own power. They do not stand down.
    Prosecute the breaking of windows all you like during Kristallnacht. You’d be boosting the German glazing industry, sure .. while perfectly missing the point.
    Just so, these scum.
    I’m nearly done.
    FOX News and their horrid media sisters must be abolished, root and branch. Murdoch must be deported.
    Yeah, be careful what I wish for, right, First Amendment purists?
    Next you’ll be telling me Joseph Goebbels had rights too as he murdered his own children as Allied Forces closed in to permanently shut his mouth about killing Jews.
    I can’t buy large amounts of fertilizer and rat poison for fear of my intent.
    Just so with the explosive poisons spewed from the puke funnel at FOX News.
    I’ve noted this before, and I apologize that I can no longer find the video clips from at least two decades ago. It was in my favorites, since deleted by a succession of new computers.
    It is of Grover Norquist and a very young Tucker Carlson, tittering in adoration of Norquist like a kneeling sorority girl at a frat boy hazing, interviewing a roster of four republican candidates for, if I remember correctly, either the US House or a state legislative office. Norquist is grilling the four, three males and one female, all experiencing the visible sheens of flop sweats, about their personal weapons arsenals, in that stern, authoritarian straight mug mouth of his, which was not tolerating any hesitation on the candidates’ parts about any hesitations that might have about the line of questioning. Each one described, lovingly, each weapon, multiples of them, many semi-automatic and automatic (at the time), they kept at the ready, in their gun cabinets.
    As Carlson giggled that high-pitched nerd thing he does (like Buchanan, Carlson rails against Washington elites, but like Buchanan is a born son of Washington elite insiders and heir to elite fortunes) it was obvious that Norquist was NOT so much concerned with grouse-hunting or personal self-defense as the function of these weapons, but how those weapons were the bulwark to be used against government and government employees.
    Around the same time, I saved a clip from C-Span in which some poe-faced Brian Lamb wanna be, maybe Lamb himself, interviews Norquist about farm subsidies and when the interviewer muses about what might happen if farm subsidies are not immediately withdrawn, Norquist said, “Well then, the government will be facing five million armed and angry farmers and ranchers.”
    What happened last week is nothing new with the conservative movement. They have been insurrectionists, threatening insurrectionist violence against the government and government employees since Daddy Koch returned from Germany and Russia to peddle his citizen’s united rat poison and Robert Welch declared governance by man the enemy of Man.
    It is the plain fact [that] there are no conservative or reactionary ideas in general circulation” but only “irritable mental gestures which seem to resemble ideas.”
    Funny-looking furry hatted asses I can kick.
    It’s the Norquists that are ultimately going to be mine and must be the declared enemies of America.
    In the meantime, even though my personal opinion is that altering the Electoral College apparatus should be approached cautiously (I’m conservative that way, but mainly because the modern noxious republican party is three steps ahead of all of us in the ruination game and will find ways to turn THAT to their malignant advantage as well), I suggest the home states of each and every one of the insurrectionists who violated the Capitol with intent to kidnap and murder (gotta say, it gave me a thrilling frisson up the spine imagining Pence tied to a chair with some wadded up legislative drafts stuffed in his Trump-fellating mouth, surveying the scene, through clouds of teargas, with that smug, dumb, ever-present rictus of fake, cynical grifting Christian holier than thou all-American stupidity frozen on his face as he contemplated in that barely flickering one-celled rodent he calls a brain how he arrived at his moment in infamy; like the clueless lady in this cartoon is nitwit blockhead Pence. God, he must be a stallion in bed for his poor wife to still give it up to him):
    https://condenaststore.com/featured/we-had-rats-liana-finck.html
    ………… be identified. and for every one individual breaking shit in Washington D.C. on January 6, one electoral vote be subtracted from their total electoral vote allowances.
    That should put the smaller western red
    states out of business and with any luck hobble Florida and Texas, who sent caravans (and NOT the good kind consisting of besieged Latin Americans, otherwise known as better US citizens than any so-called republican citizen interviewed in diners across America by New York Times reporters) and the other big red states for the rest of the century.
    January 17th is a QAnon annivesary. Much is planned.
    We ain’t seen nothin yet.

  243. The media has invited a measure of distrust by media organizations and journalists coming across as advocates for various political and social agendas and narratives instead of dispassionate reporters of facts.

  244. The media has invited a measure of distrust by media organizations and journalists coming across as advocates for various political and social agendas and narratives instead of dispassionate reporters of facts.

  245. The media has invited a measure of distrust by media organizations and journalists coming across as advocates for various political and social agendas and narratives instead of dispassionate reporters of facts.
    The major media actually does a fairly good job of separating their opinion pieces from their news stories. They keep the news stories factual. In general (emphatically excluding Fox) they accurately label which is which.
    At worst, you can fault their selection of which news stories to run. Because, after all, you can’t possibly cover everything that happened. Not even locally, let alone across the entire planet.

  246. The media has invited a measure of distrust by media organizations and journalists coming across as advocates for various political and social agendas and narratives instead of dispassionate reporters of facts.
    The major media actually does a fairly good job of separating their opinion pieces from their news stories. They keep the news stories factual. In general (emphatically excluding Fox) they accurately label which is which.
    At worst, you can fault their selection of which news stories to run. Because, after all, you can’t possibly cover everything that happened. Not even locally, let alone across the entire planet.

  247. He is worth reading, whether you like the NYT or not.
    But my point is that NYT-avoiders would never read it, on principle. Maybe not the two here, but all the others. Non-exposure to facts, or other ideas, is what moves the Overton Window, and also enables unreality bubbles.
    wj: you were not one of the conservatives to whom I was referring.

  248. He is worth reading, whether you like the NYT or not.
    But my point is that NYT-avoiders would never read it, on principle. Maybe not the two here, but all the others. Non-exposure to facts, or other ideas, is what moves the Overton Window, and also enables unreality bubbles.
    wj: you were not one of the conservatives to whom I was referring.

  249. CharlesWT: Yeah, right. And whether you intend it or not, thus the justification for the for treating the press as The Enemy of the People.

  250. CharlesWT: Yeah, right. And whether you intend it or not, thus the justification for the for treating the press as The Enemy of the People.

  251. I think we have at least a couple of layers of conversation going on here that need to be tracked. There is the question of law and justice. There is the question of politics and coexistence. Between those two there is a fairly fraught and narrow path to get to the most important question, which is “how can we move forward in a way that will allow the factions to reestablish social bonds and find a common narrative and source of information from which to build a shared social future.” That last part is not always possible if we insist on law and justice, but it is also impossible without a mutually agreed system of law and justice. Helluva bind.
    Excerpt from an ongoing conversation I am having with an old and politically problematic friend on social media:
    Me –What do you think should be done with the people who breached the capitol? What is the appropriate response?
    Him – They should be arrested and charged with destruction of Federal property at the very least. If a charge of sedition and insurrection is appropriate that as well. I am not a lawyer so I am not sure of the legality of that. With Trumps monuments declaration, I would expect at least 10 years in prison. If Treason can be proven I agree with the death penalty. Obviously not all of them destroyed or looted property. So criminal trespass may be on the table. There are consequences to actions. I would expect to see many to have a 10 year sentence.
    So there is common ground here in how the right sees the assault on the capitol.
    We need to get people like him to, if not join us, at least take a public stand in their own media against this sort of violence and sedition. The us vs them urge needs to be aimed not at right/left, but at their own political associations.
    With him I have been trying to focus on the false equivalencies that fuel his justification narratives by arguing that the violence during the Portland, Seattle, and Kenosha protests was not in any way promoted by BLM, and providing the best evidence that I can that the rumors of widespread and unusual election irregularities are malicious and false and are being used to justify the actions he denounced above.

  252. I think we have at least a couple of layers of conversation going on here that need to be tracked. There is the question of law and justice. There is the question of politics and coexistence. Between those two there is a fairly fraught and narrow path to get to the most important question, which is “how can we move forward in a way that will allow the factions to reestablish social bonds and find a common narrative and source of information from which to build a shared social future.” That last part is not always possible if we insist on law and justice, but it is also impossible without a mutually agreed system of law and justice. Helluva bind.
    Excerpt from an ongoing conversation I am having with an old and politically problematic friend on social media:
    Me –What do you think should be done with the people who breached the capitol? What is the appropriate response?
    Him – They should be arrested and charged with destruction of Federal property at the very least. If a charge of sedition and insurrection is appropriate that as well. I am not a lawyer so I am not sure of the legality of that. With Trumps monuments declaration, I would expect at least 10 years in prison. If Treason can be proven I agree with the death penalty. Obviously not all of them destroyed or looted property. So criminal trespass may be on the table. There are consequences to actions. I would expect to see many to have a 10 year sentence.
    So there is common ground here in how the right sees the assault on the capitol.
    We need to get people like him to, if not join us, at least take a public stand in their own media against this sort of violence and sedition. The us vs them urge needs to be aimed not at right/left, but at their own political associations.
    With him I have been trying to focus on the false equivalencies that fuel his justification narratives by arguing that the violence during the Portland, Seattle, and Kenosha protests was not in any way promoted by BLM, and providing the best evidence that I can that the rumors of widespread and unusual election irregularities are malicious and false and are being used to justify the actions he denounced above.

  253. providing the best evidence that I can that the rumors of widespread and unusual election irregularities are malicious and false
    I don’t know if you will find it helpful. But I have been pointing out that Trump’s own lawyers have made speeches claiming election fraud. But when they actually get into court, they are extremely careful to tell the judge that they are NOT saying that there was election fraud. Because, it’s fine to lie in a speech. But, for a lawyer, lying to a judge in court has huge, disastrous, consequences. So they don’t.
    And they can check that for themselves by reading the court transcripts. No need to go anywhere near the media.

  254. providing the best evidence that I can that the rumors of widespread and unusual election irregularities are malicious and false
    I don’t know if you will find it helpful. But I have been pointing out that Trump’s own lawyers have made speeches claiming election fraud. But when they actually get into court, they are extremely careful to tell the judge that they are NOT saying that there was election fraud. Because, it’s fine to lie in a speech. But, for a lawyer, lying to a judge in court has huge, disastrous, consequences. So they don’t.
    And they can check that for themselves by reading the court transcripts. No need to go anywhere near the media.

  257. But my point is that NYT-avoiders would never read it, on principle.
    Yes, apologies if it seemed like I was disputing you on that. Mostly I was trying to provide an inducement to read for folks who might otherwise ignore it due to it being the NYT.
    I completely agree on the issue of information bubbles.
    nous, thank you for fighting the good fight.

  258. But my point is that NYT-avoiders would never read it, on principle.
    Yes, apologies if it seemed like I was disputing you on that. Mostly I was trying to provide an inducement to read for folks who might otherwise ignore it due to it being the NYT.
    I completely agree on the issue of information bubbles.
    nous, thank you for fighting the good fight.

  259. “as advocates for various political and social agendas and narratives instead of dispassionate reporters of facts.”
    Name one day in American history that condition did not exist in American journalism, print, broadcast or what passes for internet news.
    It’s a business. What sells .. is sold and bought.
    Christ, have you tried reading ANY stock market fluffing garbage on ANY internet business news website or for that matter Anywhere? EVERYTHING is a sales pitch by the bulls and free advertising for every commissioned cockeyed lying optimist, not straight news.
    God, what idealistic horsesh*t.
    But, what we have now from FOX and ilk is something much more malignant as Snyder points out. It’s on a par with Pravda, with Hitler’s propaganda ministry, and Tokyo Rose and Axis Sally blaring to our boys in foxholes about their favorite Brooklyn Dodger so they might raise their heads for the sniper to get off a good shot.
    It is to mainstream journalism and the news, which is imperfectly objective, sure, and always has been like every human endeavor queered by the need to make a buck in America, what Hustler Magazine was to objectified lady parts, a pusher of malignant hateful lying shit we don’t need to know, hear, see, or act upon.
    And furthermore, tex, this idea of yours that if ONLY we would leave Trump out of all this IS one hell of a notion.
    Never mind the man (one of the many) behind the curtain.
    By all means, let’s also take the Mao out of Maoism, the Stalin out of Stalinism, the Marx out of Marxism, The Hitler out of Nazism, the Manson out of the Manson cult, and Christ out of Christmas, the Sam out of Houston, the Wiz out of Wizard, The Washington out of Washington DC, the Lincoln out of Lincoln Logs, the Dada out of Dadaism, and the Plato out of Platonic sex, and the hots and the tots out of the Hottentots, everything would just go away and no one would be held responsible for whatever THEY pushed their way to the front to get all over us, and named after themselves.
    Why, as I write this, the severed heads of the Boleyn sisters hover before me pleading that we stop making their fates all about Henry VIII.
    Why must he snag all of the attention?
    European leaders I expect feel the same way about trump.
    https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=video+of+trump+pushing+europeasn+leaders+out+of+the+eay&atb=v204-1&iax=videos&ia=videos&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DLa9VuUuJJDo
    I will concede to you that the news media, across the board, fattened bottom lines with their cynical 24-hour attention on close-ups of the slow-mo catastrophic, country-ending train wreck of this bloated porcine villain and his sordid filthy conservative minions.
    It wasn’t a journalistic decision. It was a business decision. Like every fucking thing in America, including Christianity and flavored condoms.
    It’s Chayefsky’s Network come to full fruition.
    But here’s the thing. I can tell by the bemused observations about the events of recent days from the above-the-clouds elitist libertarian tower from which you look down on all of it is that your real point is, you know, you fools, if we didn’t have a government and even refused to govern and in fact if we had never built the Capitol Building to house our so-called representatives, none of this would have happened.
    Right?

  260. “as advocates for various political and social agendas and narratives instead of dispassionate reporters of facts.”
    Name one day in American history that condition did not exist in American journalism, print, broadcast or what passes for internet news.
    It’s a business. What sells .. is sold and bought.
    Christ, have you tried reading ANY stock market fluffing garbage on ANY internet business news website or for that matter Anywhere? EVERYTHING is a sales pitch by the bulls and free advertising for every commissioned cockeyed lying optimist, not straight news.
    God, what idealistic horsesh*t.
    But, what we have now from FOX and ilk is something much more malignant as Snyder points out. It’s on a par with Pravda, with Hitler’s propaganda ministry, and Tokyo Rose and Axis Sally blaring to our boys in foxholes about their favorite Brooklyn Dodger so they might raise their heads for the sniper to get off a good shot.
    It is to mainstream journalism and the news, which is imperfectly objective, sure, and always has been like every human endeavor queered by the need to make a buck in America, what Hustler Magazine was to objectified lady parts, a pusher of malignant hateful lying shit we don’t need to know, hear, see, or act upon.
    And furthermore, tex, this idea of yours that if ONLY we would leave Trump out of all this IS one hell of a notion.
    Never mind the man (one of the many) behind the curtain.
    By all means, let’s also take the Mao out of Maoism, the Stalin out of Stalinism, the Marx out of Marxism, The Hitler out of Nazism, the Manson out of the Manson cult, and Christ out of Christmas, the Sam out of Houston, the Wiz out of Wizard, The Washington out of Washington DC, the Lincoln out of Lincoln Logs, the Dada out of Dadaism, and the Plato out of Platonic sex, and the hots and the tots out of the Hottentots, everything would just go away and no one would be held responsible for whatever THEY pushed their way to the front to get all over us, and named after themselves.
    Why, as I write this, the severed heads of the Boleyn sisters hover before me pleading that we stop making their fates all about Henry VIII.
    Why must he snag all of the attention?
    European leaders I expect feel the same way about trump.
    https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=video+of+trump+pushing+europeasn+leaders+out+of+the+eay&atb=v204-1&iax=videos&ia=videos&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DLa9VuUuJJDo
    I will concede to you that the news media, across the board, fattened bottom lines with their cynical 24-hour attention on close-ups of the slow-mo catastrophic, country-ending train wreck of this bloated porcine villain and his sordid filthy conservative minions.
    It wasn’t a journalistic decision. It was a business decision. Like every fucking thing in America, including Christianity and flavored condoms.
    It’s Chayefsky’s Network come to full fruition.
    But here’s the thing. I can tell by the bemused observations about the events of recent days from the above-the-clouds elitist libertarian tower from which you look down on all of it is that your real point is, you know, you fools, if we didn’t have a government and even refused to govern and in fact if we had never built the Capitol Building to house our so-called representatives, none of this would have happened.
    Right?

  261. The 24-hour news cycle has ruined us.
    It’s ruined sports.
    It’s ruined investing.
    Stop it. Stop feeding me with a firehose. Even in my sleep.
    This just in. F*ck off.
    We’ll be right back for more of that.

  262. The 24-hour news cycle has ruined us.
    It’s ruined sports.
    It’s ruined investing.
    Stop it. Stop feeding me with a firehose. Even in my sleep.
    This just in. F*ck off.
    We’ll be right back for more of that.

  263. A couple of lines from the Snyder piece:
    “As Cruz and Hawley may learn, to tell the big lie is to be owned by it. Just because you have sold your soul does not mean that you have driven a hard bargain.”

  264. A couple of lines from the Snyder piece:
    “As Cruz and Hawley may learn, to tell the big lie is to be owned by it. Just because you have sold your soul does not mean that you have driven a hard bargain.”

  265. “Flood the zone with shit” is the information warfare equivalent of maneuver warfare aka “shock and awe.” Force the tempo and set the terms and hit them again before they can react to the first attack. It perpetuates a defensive posture. Truth is irrelevant because by the time the return fire of truth can be delivered, the target has moved on to another lie fired from another direction.

  266. “Flood the zone with shit” is the information warfare equivalent of maneuver warfare aka “shock and awe.” Force the tempo and set the terms and hit them again before they can react to the first attack. It perpetuates a defensive posture. Truth is irrelevant because by the time the return fire of truth can be delivered, the target has moved on to another lie fired from another direction.

  267. But, what we have now from FOX and ilk is something much more malignant as Snyder points out……..It is to mainstream journalism and the news, which is imperfectly objective, sure, and always has been like every human endeavor queered by the need to make a buck in America, what Hustler Magazine was to objectified lady parts, a pusher of malignant hateful lying shit we don’t need to know, hear, see, or act upon.
    Exactly right. And different in kind and in every other way from media outlets which at least try to give the facts. And the culture which allows e.g. the NYT or the WaPo to be considered Fake News, and The Enemy of the People, is very much part of what has enabled and contributed to the terrifying polarisation of the country into two groups with precisely opposite ideas of what is true and what is not.

  268. But, what we have now from FOX and ilk is something much more malignant as Snyder points out……..It is to mainstream journalism and the news, which is imperfectly objective, sure, and always has been like every human endeavor queered by the need to make a buck in America, what Hustler Magazine was to objectified lady parts, a pusher of malignant hateful lying shit we don’t need to know, hear, see, or act upon.
    Exactly right. And different in kind and in every other way from media outlets which at least try to give the facts. And the culture which allows e.g. the NYT or the WaPo to be considered Fake News, and The Enemy of the People, is very much part of what has enabled and contributed to the terrifying polarisation of the country into two groups with precisely opposite ideas of what is true and what is not.

  269. What upsets me most in all this is that it makes the attitudes that JDT has been posting here seem increasingly attractive. Which is to say, turning ourselves into mirror images of those attacking our country and our institutions.
    I get particularly depressed when I just can’t see a viable alternative. Alternatives we may hope will work, yes. But alternatives likely to work? Not so much. Sigh.

  270. What upsets me most in all this is that it makes the attitudes that JDT has been posting here seem increasingly attractive. Which is to say, turning ourselves into mirror images of those attacking our country and our institutions.
    I get particularly depressed when I just can’t see a viable alternative. Alternatives we may hope will work, yes. But alternatives likely to work? Not so much. Sigh.

  273. I get particularly depressed when I just can’t see a viable alternative.
    For a perhaps short while, we will have the full power of the Federal government behind us, with all of its laws. We need to use that, fully. Prison.

  274. I get particularly depressed when I just can’t see a viable alternative.
    For a perhaps short while, we will have the full power of the Federal government behind us, with all of its laws. We need to use that, fully. Prison.

  275. It’s a business. What sells .. is sold and bought.
    Why, exactly. As the outcome of the intricate play of Natural Law, the free marketplace of ideas, and the capitalist ethos…then what we observe is, nay, must be the Best of All Possible Worlds.
    Right, Charles?

  276. It’s a business. What sells .. is sold and bought.
    Why, exactly. As the outcome of the intricate play of Natural Law, the free marketplace of ideas, and the capitalist ethos…then what we observe is, nay, must be the Best of All Possible Worlds.
    Right, Charles?

  279. wj,
    I feel your pain. Some post putsch GOP observations from local GOP pols and their citizen hangers on here in the 48th soviet of Washington.
    I dare say, the attitudes expressed here are pretty much the same across the nation. The denial is, simply put, staggering.

  280. wj,
    I feel your pain. Some post putsch GOP observations from local GOP pols and their citizen hangers on here in the 48th soviet of Washington.
    I dare say, the attitudes expressed here are pretty much the same across the nation. The denial is, simply put, staggering.

  283. They keep the news stories factual. In general (emphatically excluding Fox) they accurately label which is which.
    As an example, with all the recent controversies and instances of mixing opinion into news stories at the NYT, a bit of skepticism of any news they publish is indicated. All news should be view with skepticism until collaboration, regardless of source.

  284. They keep the news stories factual. In general (emphatically excluding Fox) they accurately label which is which.
    As an example, with all the recent controversies and instances of mixing opinion into news stories at the NYT, a bit of skepticism of any news they publish is indicated. All news should be view with skepticism until collaboration, regardless of source.

  285. “The major media actually does a fairly good job of separating their opinion pieces from their news stories. They keep the news stories factual. In general (emphatically excluding Fox) they accurately label which is which.”
    This is complete nonsense. By this measure Fox is the absolute equivalent of CNN while the others pedal George Stephanopoulus as Sunday morning news.
    The media clearly lies regularly, not for the Democrats, but for what they want to be supported. Then Fox turned that up for the “right”.
    It sucks, but they just outdid the people who started it. If you want to hope for a solution intellectual honesty needs to be a prerequisite.

  286. “The major media actually does a fairly good job of separating their opinion pieces from their news stories. They keep the news stories factual. In general (emphatically excluding Fox) they accurately label which is which.”
    This is complete nonsense. By this measure Fox is the absolute equivalent of CNN while the others pedal George Stephanopoulus as Sunday morning news.
    The media clearly lies regularly, not for the Democrats, but for what they want to be supported. Then Fox turned that up for the “right”.
    It sucks, but they just outdid the people who started it. If you want to hope for a solution intellectual honesty needs to be a prerequisite.

  287. I haven’t read the other comments so please forgive me.
    We can’t let people think that it might be a beneficial political gambit to play around with coup attempts. So until we research further I’m not sure HOW deep we need to go, but for sure we have to expel Cruz and Hawley from the Senate.
    Also have you seen this discussion about how close of a call it was?
    Apparently (while the Congressman were still there) an entrance to the Senate Chamber was open and undefended, and a single black police officer saw that, and led the mob down the wrong hallway by getting them to chase him. This could have been MUCH worse than it already was.
    https://twitter.com/pamelacolloff/status/1348297094969372677?s=21

  288. I haven’t read the other comments so please forgive me.
    We can’t let people think that it might be a beneficial political gambit to play around with coup attempts. So until we research further I’m not sure HOW deep we need to go, but for sure we have to expel Cruz and Hawley from the Senate.
    Also have you seen this discussion about how close of a call it was?
    Apparently (while the Congressman were still there) an entrance to the Senate Chamber was open and undefended, and a single black police officer saw that, and led the mob down the wrong hallway by getting them to chase him. This could have been MUCH worse than it already was.
    https://twitter.com/pamelacolloff/status/1348297094969372677?s=21

  289. “Which is to say, turning ourselves into mirror images of those attacking our country and our institutions.”
    Well, so far, only in the sense of Laurence Olivier turning himself into Richard III, humped and gimp-legged, laying waste to the kingdom and upending enemies into vats of wine, while afterwards exchanging bon mots with Ralph Richardson at the pub around the corner.
    But I am very attuned to the fact that one day, perhaps soon, I personally will have to fight this evil physically in the streets, exchanging kind for kind, whatever they want to bring.
    Heck, I’ve talked MYSELF into it. But I’m not going to be a solitary actor. It’s gotta be organized and overwhelming.
    I’m warning myself about what I may have to do. I do it out loud for all of you to hear.
    If they want to get racial, anti-Semitic, and misogynist about it, I’m perfectly willing to drop whatever “politically correct” attitudes I have adhered to over time and my mouth can get straight down to their level in a hot minute.
    Once first shots are fired, the game’s on.
    They’ve been fired. Now what?
    When I played ball, especially years ago, I was the model of gentlemanly sportsmanship, head down, hustling, minding my own business, getting back in the dugout as quickly as possible without gloating over whatever there was to gloat over and most of my teammates were like that.
    But, there were teams we played who made it their business to be assholes, mostly over-muscled, thick-necked white knuckleheads who thought they might as well make war, show us their dicks, while accidentally also playing baseball.
    I’d sit there in the dugout, or stand in center field between pitches, thinking they just weren’t very good at being assholes, and some of my teammates on this particular mixed-race team were on the same page.
    So, we’d show them how to be assholes for the rest of the game. It’s not like I wanted the full supply of my stupidity-inducing testosterone to go to waste with mere head-first slides into third.
    The fields were emptied, the game annulled, the lights shut off, and the opposing assholes made promises about World War III in the parking lot.
    Fine. Let’s go. But almost always, they were driving away as we followed them out there. because we seemed kind of crazy.
    The Bob von Gibsonewitz school of War, except he was something else entirely. A decent human being, but opposing young players were counseled by veterans to not even look or stare at him when he was on the mound, like maybe he was a lion or a velociraptor out there who when eye contact was made, took that as reason to attack and eat you, with a baseball.
    He had a reputation for hitting batters, purposely, but in reality, he hit very few during his career compared to many pitchers, because, number one, his control was so good that he could miss you at will by a quarter of an inch, and number two, he didn’t have to because most hitters were ready to dive into a foxhole on every pitch.
    My new favorite Gibson story was told by, I think, Pete Lacock, a first baseman for the Cubbies, whose distinction was hitting Bob Gibson’s very last pitch in the major leagues for a grand slam home run to win the game.
    Ten years later, Gibson and LaCock, now retired meet once again in a celebrity softball game, having never spoken before, each on opposing celebrity teams. Gibson’s on the mound, lobbing softballs up there underhanded to the celebs.
    LaCock stands in to the batter’s box. Gibson winds up, and with the first pitch, now overhanded, still with mph on it you don’t want to get on the way of, and conks LaCock right in ass.
    Ten years Gibson had to wait to get even on his terms for that home run.
    LaCock got it and respected it. He was in (shock and) awe.
    This all by way of me responding to lj’s Lasorda theme.
    Anyway, this lot isn’t driving away and those they hate, half the country, need to become Bob Gibson and have a long memory.
    I’ll say this to any conservative of the current stripe, visit my watering hole and act like a fucking asshole like Ted Cruz and trump and Leave It to Hawley/Haskell, and you won’t know who or what hit you when you come to out on the sidewalk.
    You’ll think, they seemed like nice people, like pushovers, like we might be able to fuck with them.
    There are still rules beyond the formal rules.
    To end on another baseball note, one evening George Steinbrenner and Reggie Jackson got on an elevator at the hotel. A few minutes later, they got off, Jackson natty as always, Steinbrenner his collar and tie awry, and with a black eye.
    Which one was the conservative bullying asshole with the mouth on him and which one was the guy who could summon his inner asshole when required?

  290. “Which is to say, turning ourselves into mirror images of those attacking our country and our institutions.”
    Well, so far, only in the sense of Laurence Olivier turning himself into Richard III, humped and gimp-legged, laying waste to the kingdom and upending enemies into vats of wine, while afterwards exchanging bon mots with Ralph Richardson at the pub around the corner.
    But I am very attuned to the fact that one day, perhaps soon, I personally will have to fight this evil physically in the streets, exchanging kind for kind, whatever they want to bring.
    Heck, I’ve talked MYSELF into it. But I’m not going to be a solitary actor. It’s gotta be organized and overwhelming.
    I’m warning myself about what I may have to do. I do it out loud for all of you to hear.
    If they want to get racial, anti-Semitic, and misogynist about it, I’m perfectly willing to drop whatever “politically correct” attitudes I have adhered to over time and my mouth can get straight down to their level in a hot minute.
    Once first shots are fired, the game’s on.
    They’ve been fired. Now what?
    When I played ball, especially years ago, I was the model of gentlemanly sportsmanship, head down, hustling, minding my own business, getting back in the dugout as quickly as possible without gloating over whatever there was to gloat over and most of my teammates were like that.
    But, there were teams we played who made it their business to be assholes, mostly over-muscled, thick-necked white knuckleheads who thought they might as well make war, show us their dicks, while accidentally also playing baseball.
    I’d sit there in the dugout, or stand in center field between pitches, thinking they just weren’t very good at being assholes, and some of my teammates on this particular mixed-race team were on the same page.
    So, we’d show them how to be assholes for the rest of the game. It’s not like I wanted the full supply of my stupidity-inducing testosterone to go to waste with mere head-first slides into third.
    The fields were emptied, the game annulled, the lights shut off, and the opposing assholes made promises about World War III in the parking lot.
    Fine. Let’s go. But almost always, they were driving away as we followed them out there. because we seemed kind of crazy.
    The Bob von Gibsonewitz school of War, except he was something else entirely. A decent human being, but opposing young players were counseled by veterans to not even look or stare at him when he was on the mound, like maybe he was a lion or a velociraptor out there who when eye contact was made, took that as reason to attack and eat you, with a baseball.
    He had a reputation for hitting batters, purposely, but in reality, he hit very few during his career compared to many pitchers, because, number one, his control was so good that he could miss you at will by a quarter of an inch, and number two, he didn’t have to because most hitters were ready to dive into a foxhole on every pitch.
    My new favorite Gibson story was told by, I think, Pete Lacock, a first baseman for the Cubbies, whose distinction was hitting Bob Gibson’s very last pitch in the major leagues for a grand slam home run to win the game.
    Ten years later, Gibson and LaCock, now retired meet once again in a celebrity softball game, having never spoken before, each on opposing celebrity teams. Gibson’s on the mound, lobbing softballs up there underhanded to the celebs.
    LaCock stands in to the batter’s box. Gibson winds up, and with the first pitch, now overhanded, still with mph on it you don’t want to get on the way of, and conks LaCock right in ass.
    Ten years Gibson had to wait to get even on his terms for that home run.
    LaCock got it and respected it. He was in (shock and) awe.
    This all by way of me responding to lj’s Lasorda theme.
    Anyway, this lot isn’t driving away and those they hate, half the country, need to become Bob Gibson and have a long memory.
    I’ll say this to any conservative of the current stripe, visit my watering hole and act like a fucking asshole like Ted Cruz and trump and Leave It to Hawley/Haskell, and you won’t know who or what hit you when you come to out on the sidewalk.
    You’ll think, they seemed like nice people, like pushovers, like we might be able to fuck with them.
    There are still rules beyond the formal rules.
    To end on another baseball note, one evening George Steinbrenner and Reggie Jackson got on an elevator at the hotel. A few minutes later, they got off, Jackson natty as always, Steinbrenner his collar and tie awry, and with a black eye.
    Which one was the conservative bullying asshole with the mouth on him and which one was the guy who could summon his inner asshole when required?

  291. Also for analytic purposes I don’t think it makes sense to talk about “the protest” or “the insurrection” or “the coup attempt” if we want to figure out WTF happened.
    There was a mob that was whipped up and sent the direction of the Capitol. (specifically whipped up against Pence) AND
    There was a highly motivated militia or militias that had some sort of plan that were using the mob as cover. That is super clear from a number of videos. AND
    Something potentially nefarious happened with the DoD re sending in the National Guard. AND
    There were communications between the mob and/or militia and members of Congress while they were in session.
    The first of this list is BAD, but it is absolutely vital that we get to the bottom of the DoD stuff, and the coordinating with Congress stuff. And after we get to the bottom of it, we absolutely must punish those people very harshly.

  292. Also for analytic purposes I don’t think it makes sense to talk about “the protest” or “the insurrection” or “the coup attempt” if we want to figure out WTF happened.
    There was a mob that was whipped up and sent the direction of the Capitol. (specifically whipped up against Pence) AND
    There was a highly motivated militia or militias that had some sort of plan that were using the mob as cover. That is super clear from a number of videos. AND
    Something potentially nefarious happened with the DoD re sending in the National Guard. AND
    There were communications between the mob and/or militia and members of Congress while they were in session.
    The first of this list is BAD, but it is absolutely vital that we get to the bottom of the DoD stuff, and the coordinating with Congress stuff. And after we get to the bottom of it, we absolutely must punish those people very harshly.

  293. So until we research further I’m not sure HOW deep we need to go, but for sure we have to expel Cruz and Hawley from the Senate.
    the 14thA seems like it might be a nice one to drop on their heads.

    No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

    plus, that whole civil war tie-in is nice.

  294. So until we research further I’m not sure HOW deep we need to go, but for sure we have to expel Cruz and Hawley from the Senate.
    the 14thA seems like it might be a nice one to drop on their heads.

    No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

    plus, that whole civil war tie-in is nice.

  295. Sebastian, that was a good find.
    The officer should be made Chief of the Capitol Hill Police and every day Congress is in session, every republican should have to ask his personal permission to enter the building and their offices.
    He also needs to be tested for Covid-19, and if he has contracted the virus, when he recovers, he should find the republican f*ckers who deliberately infected him and Democrats with the deadly disease and use all of those implements he carries on his belt on their heads.
    I can’t see that this would be unprofessional behavior, given the standard set by right wing police forces and sheriffs across the country.
    We can all play the sovereign game.

  296. Sebastian, that was a good find.
    The officer should be made Chief of the Capitol Hill Police and every day Congress is in session, every republican should have to ask his personal permission to enter the building and their offices.
    He also needs to be tested for Covid-19, and if he has contracted the virus, when he recovers, he should find the republican f*ckers who deliberately infected him and Democrats with the deadly disease and use all of those implements he carries on his belt on their heads.
    I can’t see that this would be unprofessional behavior, given the standard set by right wing police forces and sheriffs across the country.
    We can all play the sovereign game.

  299. I don’t know where Marty gets the idea that the Sunday morning gabfests on TV are “news” shows.
    The man Charlie Pierce called Clinton Guy Shocked by Blowjobs and whose name is spelled Stephanopoulos used to be one of those gabfest “hosts”, long ago. His “guests”, many of them Republicans or worse, tried their best NOT to “make news” while they gabbed, like all the guests on all the Sunday morning talk shows I ever watched. The reason I stopped watching them was that it was big news whenever a guest “made news”, so I could learn about it in the, you know, news.
    The trouble with “news”, as in factual reporting of real events, is that reality has a well-known liberal bias. That seems to annoy some people.
    –TP

  300. I don’t know where Marty gets the idea that the Sunday morning gabfests on TV are “news” shows.
    The man Charlie Pierce called Clinton Guy Shocked by Blowjobs and whose name is spelled Stephanopoulos used to be one of those gabfest “hosts”, long ago. His “guests”, many of them Republicans or worse, tried their best NOT to “make news” while they gabbed, like all the guests on all the Sunday morning talk shows I ever watched. The reason I stopped watching them was that it was big news whenever a guest “made news”, so I could learn about it in the, you know, news.
    The trouble with “news”, as in factual reporting of real events, is that reality has a well-known liberal bias. That seems to annoy some people.
    –TP

  301. As to the Defense Department complicity and republican office holders coordinating with armed militia during the coup, purge the conservative movement deep state, with force, if necessary.
    Show them the door, and if they attempt to ever enter a federal government agency structure again, shoot them on sight.
    As a former federal employee, I wouldn’t be able to work in the same building with them without cold-cocking them.
    It was enough that conservative movement McVeigh and his accomplices stalked the federal building my wife worked in pre-Oklahoma city.
    We don’t need them actually manning a desk in the buildings.
    Speaking of which, I wonder if streiff of redstate and outed as a high GS level growth in the taxpayer’s anus was involved in this, perhaps ready to unlock doors for terrorists to his federal building.
    Biden’s going to need more mustard on that ham sandwich to do what needs to be done.
    I remember CNN being labeled the Communist News Network by Tom Delay. Is he dead yet? If not, why not?
    Anyway, I perfectly understand FOX News forming themselves into the The Reich Ring for National Socialist Propaganda and Public Enlightenment under Hermann Murdoch Goering to proof once and for all that one side can do it better than the other.
    Shut it.
    The beaver shot blondes can get themselves a reality show, probably on CNN.

  302. As to the Defense Department complicity and republican office holders coordinating with armed militia during the coup, purge the conservative movement deep state, with force, if necessary.
    Show them the door, and if they attempt to ever enter a federal government agency structure again, shoot them on sight.
    As a former federal employee, I wouldn’t be able to work in the same building with them without cold-cocking them.
    It was enough that conservative movement McVeigh and his accomplices stalked the federal building my wife worked in pre-Oklahoma city.
    We don’t need them actually manning a desk in the buildings.
    Speaking of which, I wonder if streiff of redstate and outed as a high GS level growth in the taxpayer’s anus was involved in this, perhaps ready to unlock doors for terrorists to his federal building.
    Biden’s going to need more mustard on that ham sandwich to do what needs to be done.
    I remember CNN being labeled the Communist News Network by Tom Delay. Is he dead yet? If not, why not?
    Anyway, I perfectly understand FOX News forming themselves into the The Reich Ring for National Socialist Propaganda and Public Enlightenment under Hermann Murdoch Goering to proof once and for all that one side can do it better than the other.
    Shut it.
    The beaver shot blondes can get themselves a reality show, probably on CNN.

  303. Trump’s going to the Alamo.
    Let’s not just remember it, let’s do it over again.
    Case closed, except for when the Alamo Rental Car Agency in San Antonio informs his advance freaks that Santa Anna nabbed the last rental car.

  304. Trump’s going to the Alamo.
    Let’s not just remember it, let’s do it over again.
    Case closed, except for when the Alamo Rental Car Agency in San Antonio informs his advance freaks that Santa Anna nabbed the last rental car.

  305. Good responses. More of these, please.
    A pretty f’ing heroic guy.
    A message from Arnold.
    A lot of my musician friends are drawing lines now. There is a non-trivial contingent of Trump supporters in professional music, ironically often in styles that are rooted in the American black community and experience.
    Some of them were among Trump’s army at the Capitol, some are at least supportive of that mob.
    Folks are calling them out, in some cases ending personal and professional relationships.
    It has to be made clear exactly how unacceptable this is. All of it, the whole package – Trump himself, and the toxic divisive ethos he’s supported and encouraged.
    When it starts costing these people something, some of them will wise up. Maybe.

  306. Good responses. More of these, please.
    A pretty f’ing heroic guy.
    A message from Arnold.
    A lot of my musician friends are drawing lines now. There is a non-trivial contingent of Trump supporters in professional music, ironically often in styles that are rooted in the American black community and experience.
    Some of them were among Trump’s army at the Capitol, some are at least supportive of that mob.
    Folks are calling them out, in some cases ending personal and professional relationships.
    It has to be made clear exactly how unacceptable this is. All of it, the whole package – Trump himself, and the toxic divisive ethos he’s supported and encouraged.
    When it starts costing these people something, some of them will wise up. Maybe.

  309. I hope the out of work pro-Trump musicians retain full and expanded access to Obamacare to keep body and pea brains together.

  310. I hope the out of work pro-Trump musicians retain full and expanded access to Obamacare to keep body and pea brains together.

  313. sorry, I see that most of what I posted had already been posted by others.
    Should read before posting.
    And yes, Sebastian basically nails it.

  314. sorry, I see that most of what I posted had already been posted by others.
    Should read before posting.
    And yes, Sebastian basically nails it.

  315. sorry, I see that most of what I posted had already been posted by others.
    Should read before posting.
    Some things can’t really be said too often.

  316. sorry, I see that most of what I posted had already been posted by others.
    Should read before posting.
    Some things can’t really be said too often.

  317. Thanks to trump, we have a headless, leaderless government and military.
    If I were Russia and China, I’d attack now.
    As it is, I’m merely me and I’m fucking terrified.

  318. Thanks to trump, we have a headless, leaderless government and military.
    If I were Russia and China, I’d attack now.
    As it is, I’m merely me and I’m fucking terrified.

  319. As I think Janie pointed out way up a thread, Trump and Republicans told us exactly what has happened would happen .. there would not be a peaceful transfer of power, for the first time in history, not that conservatives in past eras never gave it some thought.
    See, we didn’t believe the liars could tell the truth, or what they refer to as God’s fascist truth.
    Never be a metaphorist in a world run by literalists.
    I’ve reached my bandwidth limit for 2021.

  320. As I think Janie pointed out way up a thread, Trump and Republicans told us exactly what has happened would happen .. there would not be a peaceful transfer of power, for the first time in history, not that conservatives in past eras never gave it some thought.
    See, we didn’t believe the liars could tell the truth, or what they refer to as God’s fascist truth.
    Never be a metaphorist in a world run by literalists.
    I’ve reached my bandwidth limit for 2021.

  321. Does anyone have a link to the info Sebastian talks about re DOD and the National Guard, or collusive contact between insurrectionists and legislators in the chamber – i.e. insider insurrectionists? I don’t know about these two stories. I’ll go searching, but if anyone has easy access to info I would appreciate it.

  322. Does anyone have a link to the info Sebastian talks about re DOD and the National Guard, or collusive contact between insurrectionists and legislators in the chamber – i.e. insider insurrectionists? I don’t know about these two stories. I’ll go searching, but if anyone has easy access to info I would appreciate it.

  323. How can both sides do it, when FOX News reporters aren’t being threatened by death too by hippies.
    “The mob massed together and rushed the officer, forcing open the door, and people flooded in. I ran upstairs to be out of the way of the crowd, and to get a better vantage point to document what was happening. Suddenly, two or three men in black surrounded me and demanded to know who I worked for.
    Grabbing my press pass, they saw that my ID said The New York Times and became really angry. They threw me to the floor, trying to take my cameras. I started screaming for help as loudly as I could. No one came. People just watched. At this point, I thought I could be killed and no one would stop them. They ripped one of my cameras away from me, broke a lens on the other and ran away.
    After that I was hyperventilating, unsure of what to do. I knew I needed to get away from the mob and hide my broken camera so I wouldn’t be targeted again. I ran into Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s suite, but people were vandalizing her office, so I kept moving. Walking out to her balcony facing west toward the National Mall, I saw a mass of people covering the inaugural stage. I found a spot to hide my camera in there, then stood watching the crowd from the balcony and filming from my phone, which was all I had left.
    “This will be the start of a civil war revolution,” a man next to me said”
    At the moment, we know maybe 9% of what went down and who did what and who conspired with who.
    We won’t believe the danger we are in at this very moment. We won’t believe what the trump subhumans are doing to government and its functions in this fascist republican interim.
    We are not going to believe who these people really are, and the huge conservative money that financed the first coup in American history, I mean, besides all of the other conservative coups contemplated by big dirty money in past eras.
    We are not going to believe the number of executions that are required to approach the restoration of justice and law and order in this damaged country.
    We are not going to believe what is going to be required of us.

  324. How can both sides do it, when FOX News reporters aren’t being threatened by death too by hippies.
    “The mob massed together and rushed the officer, forcing open the door, and people flooded in. I ran upstairs to be out of the way of the crowd, and to get a better vantage point to document what was happening. Suddenly, two or three men in black surrounded me and demanded to know who I worked for.
    Grabbing my press pass, they saw that my ID said The New York Times and became really angry. They threw me to the floor, trying to take my cameras. I started screaming for help as loudly as I could. No one came. People just watched. At this point, I thought I could be killed and no one would stop them. They ripped one of my cameras away from me, broke a lens on the other and ran away.
    After that I was hyperventilating, unsure of what to do. I knew I needed to get away from the mob and hide my broken camera so I wouldn’t be targeted again. I ran into Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s suite, but people were vandalizing her office, so I kept moving. Walking out to her balcony facing west toward the National Mall, I saw a mass of people covering the inaugural stage. I found a spot to hide my camera in there, then stood watching the crowd from the balcony and filming from my phone, which was all I had left.
    “This will be the start of a civil war revolution,” a man next to me said”
    At the moment, we know maybe 9% of what went down and who did what and who conspired with who.
    We won’t believe the danger we are in at this very moment. We won’t believe what the trump subhumans are doing to government and its functions in this fascist republican interim.
    We are not going to believe who these people really are, and the huge conservative money that financed the first coup in American history, I mean, besides all of the other conservative coups contemplated by big dirty money in past eras.
    We are not going to believe the number of executions that are required to approach the restoration of justice and law and order in this damaged country.
    We are not going to believe what is going to be required of us.

  329. Here is a link suggesting that the FBI didn’t act immediately even though they knew the Capitol had been overrun.

  330. Here is a link suggesting that the FBI didn’t act immediately even though they knew the Capitol had been overrun.

  333. There were communications between the mob and/or militia and members of Congress while they were in session.
    I have not seen anything about this one….time for a FISA warrant? What the hell.

  334. There were communications between the mob and/or militia and members of Congress while they were in session.
    I have not seen anything about this one….time for a FISA warrant? What the hell.

  335. No, I couldn’t find that one either.
    You know, I’m starting to worry that the outrage about this will die down, and the whole thing will become (somewhat) murky – e.g. I’ve just seen footage of a police officer opening a door and inviting the insurrectionists in, which some of the twitterati say exculpates those ones. I hope to God I’m wrong and just being paranoid, but like I said earlier, I keep thinking about the Bundys. And the Republican senators etc who need to keep condemning it, as well as Pence, are so thoroughly contaminated by their previous collusion that it’s hard to see how they thread that needle

  336. No, I couldn’t find that one either.
    You know, I’m starting to worry that the outrage about this will die down, and the whole thing will become (somewhat) murky – e.g. I’ve just seen footage of a police officer opening a door and inviting the insurrectionists in, which some of the twitterati say exculpates those ones. I hope to God I’m wrong and just being paranoid, but like I said earlier, I keep thinking about the Bundys. And the Republican senators etc who need to keep condemning it, as well as Pence, are so thoroughly contaminated by their previous collusion that it’s hard to see how they thread that needle

  337. You know, I’m starting to worry that the outrage about this will die down
    No, that will not happen. You were also glooming and dooming about Georgia polls predicting doom and gloom. Please be supportive.
    Things are going to be rough. We’re going to have more of this – they’re planning something for the 19th, I think (or maybe the 17th – whatever). Things are going to be rough even after Biden is inaugurated. We can’t be having gloom and doom oracles. Thanks!

  338. You know, I’m starting to worry that the outrage about this will die down
    No, that will not happen. You were also glooming and dooming about Georgia polls predicting doom and gloom. Please be supportive.
    Things are going to be rough. We’re going to have more of this – they’re planning something for the 19th, I think (or maybe the 17th – whatever). Things are going to be rough even after Biden is inaugurated. We can’t be having gloom and doom oracles. Thanks!

  339. By the way, gloom and doom is justified, for sure. We’re in a horrible place. We need to know the facts, and figure out how to meet them head on.

  340. By the way, gloom and doom is justified, for sure. We’re in a horrible place. We need to know the facts, and figure out how to meet them head on.

  341. Much maligned salt of the earth hairdresser in flyover America’s heartland finds this video, click on the link.
    https://juanitajean.com/oathkeepers-filing-into-the-capitol/
    She is sure to be shouted down by coastal republican elites as not worthy of speech and opinions.
    But what were the Oath Keepers planning as they filed up the Capitol steps? Who signaled, and from where, that THAT moment was the time to enter the Capitol Building en masse like a SWAT team?
    To do what with what they are carrying?
    Last question for today. Why weren’t they gunned down on the streets in Ferguson several years ago when threatening black people with military weaponry in civilian America?
    Just like the Bundys.
    Not dealt with when we had them right where we wanted them.

  342. Much maligned salt of the earth hairdresser in flyover America’s heartland finds this video, click on the link.
    https://juanitajean.com/oathkeepers-filing-into-the-capitol/
    She is sure to be shouted down by coastal republican elites as not worthy of speech and opinions.
    But what were the Oath Keepers planning as they filed up the Capitol steps? Who signaled, and from where, that THAT moment was the time to enter the Capitol Building en masse like a SWAT team?
    To do what with what they are carrying?
    Last question for today. Why weren’t they gunned down on the streets in Ferguson several years ago when threatening black people with military weaponry in civilian America?
    Just like the Bundys.
    Not dealt with when we had them right where we wanted them.

  347. Note there has not been a single briefing from Federal authorities about the events. Four days later.
    It’s like they’re not even bothering to pretend.
    I am not 100% confident this is yet over.
    95% maybe.

  348. Note there has not been a single briefing from Federal authorities about the events. Four days later.
    It’s like they’re not even bothering to pretend.
    I am not 100% confident this is yet over.
    95% maybe.

  349. There we go.
    Not even sworn in yet and she gets to swear on a useless Bible to tell the truth in front of a jury regarding sedition, conspiracy, and attempted murder charges.
    Hell of a week for the fake cowgirl.
    When a conservative packs a weapon on their hip inappropriately in inappropriately places, assume they mean to kill.
    I’ll take a burger and a shot, ma’m. Hold the gunfire, you gormless twit.
    By the way, Bruce Baugh’s 11:01 am regarding the law suit by voting machine maker Dominion is highly readable.
    In Denver, where Dominion is based, many of their management and employees have had to lay low in lock down because of death threats by conservative movement republicans targeting them and their families/children.
    If she’s not punished to the full extent of the law, if American can figure out what the law without conservatives pointing to another law saying the exact opposite thing, Colorado is great hunting grounds for game like her.

  350. There we go.
    Not even sworn in yet and she gets to swear on a useless Bible to tell the truth in front of a jury regarding sedition, conspiracy, and attempted murder charges.
    Hell of a week for the fake cowgirl.
    When a conservative packs a weapon on their hip inappropriately in inappropriately places, assume they mean to kill.
    I’ll take a burger and a shot, ma’m. Hold the gunfire, you gormless twit.
    By the way, Bruce Baugh’s 11:01 am regarding the law suit by voting machine maker Dominion is highly readable.
    In Denver, where Dominion is based, many of their management and employees have had to lay low in lock down because of death threats by conservative movement republicans targeting them and their families/children.
    If she’s not punished to the full extent of the law, if American can figure out what the law without conservatives pointing to another law saying the exact opposite thing, Colorado is great hunting grounds for game like her.

  351. No, that will not happen. You were also glooming and dooming about Georgia polls predicting doom and gloom. Please be supportive.
    Don’t tell (or ask) me how to be.

  352. No, that will not happen. You were also glooming and dooming about Georgia polls predicting doom and gloom. Please be supportive.
    Don’t tell (or ask) me how to be.

  355. I have no duty to be supportive, to you or anybody else. And I would be surprised if another person on this site thought that I should be, or that I wasn’t being. I could be wrong, and it doesn’t matter anyway. I be me, you be you.

  356. I have no duty to be supportive, to you or anybody else. And I would be surprised if another person on this site thought that I should be, or that I wasn’t being. I could be wrong, and it doesn’t matter anyway. I be me, you be you.

  361. Be worried.
    Again with the instructions, or perhaps the permissions. When will you realise how inappropriate this sort of thing is?
    I’m going to bed.
    Fin.

  362. Be worried.
    Again with the instructions, or perhaps the permissions. When will you realise how inappropriate this sort of thing is?
    I’m going to bed.
    Fin.

  363. The House – or at least the Democrats in the House – plan to move fast. Speaker Pelosi sent out a letter to her caucus stating that the impeachment process will begin in the morning… AND she is soliciting their opinions on not only the 25th Amendment, but also on Article 14 Sec. 3.
    Article 14 Sec. 3 of the Constitution states that people who have engaged in insurrection or rebellion cannot be seated as members of Congress.
    This should be… interesting.

  364. The House – or at least the Democrats in the House – plan to move fast. Speaker Pelosi sent out a letter to her caucus stating that the impeachment process will begin in the morning… AND she is soliciting their opinions on not only the 25th Amendment, but also on Article 14 Sec. 3.
    Article 14 Sec. 3 of the Constitution states that people who have engaged in insurrection or rebellion cannot be seated as members of Congress.
    This should be… interesting.

  367. I haven’t been around often enough to feel like I can be a moderator anymore, but as a person: let’s take a breath.

  368. I haven’t been around often enough to feel like I can be a moderator anymore, but as a person: let’s take a breath.

  373. Reactions ripple in the most unlikely places. In an iRacing event where the contestants put various themes on their (virtual) cars, tonight has one titled The Homeless Despot. It includes a display of all the platforms which have banned Trump.
    https://24hoursoflemons.com/wtf-onlineracing/
    This is not a political crowd. But tonight, that car is getting lots of praise.

  374. Reactions ripple in the most unlikely places. In an iRacing event where the contestants put various themes on their (virtual) cars, tonight has one titled The Homeless Despot. It includes a display of all the platforms which have banned Trump.
    https://24hoursoflemons.com/wtf-onlineracing/
    This is not a political crowd. But tonight, that car is getting lots of praise.

  375. Boebert live-tweeted from inside. Rawstory, FWIW.
    WT actual F.
    I haven’t been around often enough to feel like I can be a moderator anymore, but as a person: let’s take a breath.
    Your unflappable nature and inherent and unswayable sense of fairness entitles you to moderate any time you like.
    Not a requirement for participating, just an open invitation. FWIW I consider you to be safe hands in any situation.
    Feel free to weigh in at will.
    I am not 100% confident this is yet over.
    I am absolutely 100% confident it is not.
    These maniacs took their obvious shot, and it failed, so it will probably be harder for them to try something quite this overt any time soon. But I’m sure they’re making plans for the next couple of weeks, and for after that as well.
    There’s nothing all that new about this goons, the only difference now is that Trump has given them credibility through his acceptance and even encouragement of their activity.
    If we want this nation to continue as such, there needs to be a forceful response. Not forceful as in violent, but effective, thorough, and uncompromising.
    Uncompromising.
    These people offer no compromise, none should be offered to them.
    Trump needs to go. People have different opinions about how to deal with folks they know who support him, personally I’m in zero tolerance mode. There is no excuse at this point for continuing to support the guy.
    That may alienate some folks, and I’m OK with that.
    These motherfuckers were hunting Congresspeople in the Capitol with zip ties and firearms, while they were receiving the electoral vote count and effecting the peaceful transfer of power.
    If that isn’t a bridge too far, there isn’t one.
    Plow Trump and Trumpism under and salt the earth where it once stood.

  376. Boebert live-tweeted from inside. Rawstory, FWIW.
    WT actual F.
    I haven’t been around often enough to feel like I can be a moderator anymore, but as a person: let’s take a breath.
    Your unflappable nature and inherent and unswayable sense of fairness entitles you to moderate any time you like.
    Not a requirement for participating, just an open invitation. FWIW I consider you to be safe hands in any situation.
    Feel free to weigh in at will.
    I am not 100% confident this is yet over.
    I am absolutely 100% confident it is not.
    These maniacs took their obvious shot, and it failed, so it will probably be harder for them to try something quite this overt any time soon. But I’m sure they’re making plans for the next couple of weeks, and for after that as well.
    There’s nothing all that new about this goons, the only difference now is that Trump has given them credibility through his acceptance and even encouragement of their activity.
    If we want this nation to continue as such, there needs to be a forceful response. Not forceful as in violent, but effective, thorough, and uncompromising.
    Uncompromising.
    These people offer no compromise, none should be offered to them.
    Trump needs to go. People have different opinions about how to deal with folks they know who support him, personally I’m in zero tolerance mode. There is no excuse at this point for continuing to support the guy.
    That may alienate some folks, and I’m OK with that.
    These motherfuckers were hunting Congresspeople in the Capitol with zip ties and firearms, while they were receiving the electoral vote count and effecting the peaceful transfer of power.
    If that isn’t a bridge too far, there isn’t one.
    Plow Trump and Trumpism under and salt the earth where it once stood.

  379. Republicans have been using labels to divide and marginalize for decades as a deliberate and cynical tactic. Pro-life, pro-family are the obvious examples. This election year they used socialist a lot. It’s very Orwellian–dumb the discourse down so that there are literally no words to describe non-Republicans except demeaning, marginalizing words.
    SO on an emotional level, I want to label them right back. ALl of them. ANd I want to do it for the same reason they have done it to the rest of us: to marginalize them. To paint them in a color that will keep them rejected for years to come.
    But that’s an emotional response and it is sometimes unfair and likely not effective anyway. I do think your average R voter is of the same ilk as the people who supported Hitler, Franco, Mussolini and other authoritarian demagogues but I don’t think it does much good to say so. After all ,in the end, we have to live with them, so the hope is that somehow some of them might come back to reason.
    But I do think that the leaders should be correctly labeled. Trump is an authoritarian demagogue. Most of the Republicans in Congress are authoritarians too. They wanted to game the system to end representative government through gerrymandering voter suppression and court packing and were happy to use hate and fearmongering to get elected. They are only turning on Trump now because he finally went too far for them and they are afraid he will screw up their reelection chances. If the Dems hadn’t won GA, they would be making excuse for him or actively supporting the riots
    As it is most are making a calculation: is their district so fascist that they have to stay pro-TRump? Or do they have some suburbs and some moderate voters and therefore should maybe indicate that attacking the capital was not a good idea?
    SO cowards, unprincipled hacks, Quislings, collaborators..yeah I don’t mind calling them fascists. Make them defensive. Make them explain themselves. Hurt their feelings. Let them know what they really are
    And the few R’s in COngress that are actually articulating opposition to Trump by speaking in terms of his violations of the law and his disrespect for facts and his promotion of violence–I think they can be labelled as principled, honorable people. I think that maybe four or five of such Republicans exist in Congress.
    For the most part the decent people have already left the party.

  380. Republicans have been using labels to divide and marginalize for decades as a deliberate and cynical tactic. Pro-life, pro-family are the obvious examples. This election year they used socialist a lot. It’s very Orwellian–dumb the discourse down so that there are literally no words to describe non-Republicans except demeaning, marginalizing words.
    SO on an emotional level, I want to label them right back. ALl of them. ANd I want to do it for the same reason they have done it to the rest of us: to marginalize them. To paint them in a color that will keep them rejected for years to come.
    But that’s an emotional response and it is sometimes unfair and likely not effective anyway. I do think your average R voter is of the same ilk as the people who supported Hitler, Franco, Mussolini and other authoritarian demagogues but I don’t think it does much good to say so. After all ,in the end, we have to live with them, so the hope is that somehow some of them might come back to reason.
    But I do think that the leaders should be correctly labeled. Trump is an authoritarian demagogue. Most of the Republicans in Congress are authoritarians too. They wanted to game the system to end representative government through gerrymandering voter suppression and court packing and were happy to use hate and fearmongering to get elected. They are only turning on Trump now because he finally went too far for them and they are afraid he will screw up their reelection chances. If the Dems hadn’t won GA, they would be making excuse for him or actively supporting the riots
    As it is most are making a calculation: is their district so fascist that they have to stay pro-TRump? Or do they have some suburbs and some moderate voters and therefore should maybe indicate that attacking the capital was not a good idea?
    SO cowards, unprincipled hacks, Quislings, collaborators..yeah I don’t mind calling them fascists. Make them defensive. Make them explain themselves. Hurt their feelings. Let them know what they really are
    And the few R’s in COngress that are actually articulating opposition to Trump by speaking in terms of his violations of the law and his disrespect for facts and his promotion of violence–I think they can be labelled as principled, honorable people. I think that maybe four or five of such Republicans exist in Congress.
    For the most part the decent people have already left the party.

  381. “What I am consistently struck by in all of this is the bizarre and detached-from-reality sense of entitlement that the folks involved all express. They are ‘we the people’, the ‘real Americans’. The patriots. And they are therefore entitled to reverse the expressed will of everyone else in the country.”
    That’s the message the Republican party has been using for decades, That’s the message of the Republican propaganda network from Faux to Newsmax. That’s what every Republican politician runs on to get elected, tho some are more blatant about it than others. That’s why the whole party is authoritarian.

  382. “What I am consistently struck by in all of this is the bizarre and detached-from-reality sense of entitlement that the folks involved all express. They are ‘we the people’, the ‘real Americans’. The patriots. And they are therefore entitled to reverse the expressed will of everyone else in the country.”
    That’s the message the Republican party has been using for decades, That’s the message of the Republican propaganda network from Faux to Newsmax. That’s what every Republican politician runs on to get elected, tho some are more blatant about it than others. That’s why the whole party is authoritarian.

  383. I do think your average R voter is of the same ilk as the people who supported Hitler, Franco, Mussolini and other authoritarian demagogues but I don’t think it does much good to say so.
    I think we need to say so, because it’s true. We’ve been hands-across-the-watering for a long time, and it’s gotten us real-life fascism. They’re not interested in our compassion.

  384. I do think your average R voter is of the same ilk as the people who supported Hitler, Franco, Mussolini and other authoritarian demagogues but I don’t think it does much good to say so.
    I think we need to say so, because it’s true. We’ve been hands-across-the-watering for a long time, and it’s gotten us real-life fascism. They’re not interested in our compassion.

  385. +1 for the PGA.
    Every organization should emulate them: a lifetime ban on any event, any conference, any anything on any Trump property. Worldwide.

  386. +1 for the PGA.
    Every organization should emulate them: a lifetime ban on any event, any conference, any anything on any Trump property. Worldwide.

  389. “What I am consistently struck by in all of this is the bizarre and detached-from-reality sense of entitlement that the folks involved all express.”
    Possible explanation here?

  390. “What I am consistently struck by in all of this is the bizarre and detached-from-reality sense of entitlement that the folks involved all express.”
    Possible explanation here?

  393. Trump is an authoritarian demagogue. Most of the Republicans in Congress are authoritarians too. They wanted to game the system to end representative government through gerrymandering voter suppression and court packing and were happy to use hate and fearmongering to get elected. They are only turning on Trump now because he finally went too far for them and they are afraid he will screw up their reelection chances.
    I agree with every word of this.

  394. Trump is an authoritarian demagogue. Most of the Republicans in Congress are authoritarians too. They wanted to game the system to end representative government through gerrymandering voter suppression and court packing and were happy to use hate and fearmongering to get elected. They are only turning on Trump now because he finally went too far for them and they are afraid he will screw up their reelection chances.
    I agree with every word of this.

  395. The Japanese history link provided by bobbyp is apropos. The problem is that it is like dealing with COVID: Every reaction seems like an overreaction, until it isn’t.

  396. The Japanese history link provided by bobbyp is apropos. The problem is that it is like dealing with COVID: Every reaction seems like an overreaction, until it isn’t.

  401. Mark Levin is free to get his own FCC license and radio transmitter, if he wants to be a radio insurrectionist, just like everybody else.

  402. Mark Levin is free to get his own FCC license and radio transmitter, if he wants to be a radio insurrectionist, just like everybody else.

  405. I believe we have reached the “it isn’t” inflection point.
    One would think. But I just had a fb back and forth with a person I know here in Japan who replied that he was a Dem (of course, he’s not going to say he’s a Republican now, is he?), but as long as the Dems “implement greater litmus tests” and liberal arrogance has them push out people who “don’t 100% agree”, they share some of the blame.
    Yo kay…
    I said it didn’t make sense to talk about litmus tests without being specific and he said
    (2 guesses the first one doesn’t count)
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Abortion.
    I said the issue was ginned up by conservatives trying to fire up their base and I could draw a straight line from Abortion thru ‘liberals are baby killers’ and rhetoric to ‘partial birth abortions’ directly to QAnon and left the thread.
    So mark my words, any crackdown is going to be pointed to as the Dems revenge and retribution. Which I can live with, but I don’t think he can.

  406. I believe we have reached the “it isn’t” inflection point.
    One would think. But I just had a fb back and forth with a person I know here in Japan who replied that he was a Dem (of course, he’s not going to say he’s a Republican now, is he?), but as long as the Dems “implement greater litmus tests” and liberal arrogance has them push out people who “don’t 100% agree”, they share some of the blame.
    Yo kay…
    I said it didn’t make sense to talk about litmus tests without being specific and he said
    (2 guesses the first one doesn’t count)
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Abortion.
    I said the issue was ginned up by conservatives trying to fire up their base and I could draw a straight line from Abortion thru ‘liberals are baby killers’ and rhetoric to ‘partial birth abortions’ directly to QAnon and left the thread.
    So mark my words, any crackdown is going to be pointed to as the Dems revenge and retribution. Which I can live with, but I don’t think he can.

  411. cleek:”Mark Levin is free to get his own FCC license and radio transmitter, if he wants to be a radio insurrectionist”
    radio insurrectionists run PIRATE radio stations. Arrr.

  412. cleek:”Mark Levin is free to get his own FCC license and radio transmitter, if he wants to be a radio insurrectionist”
    radio insurrectionists run PIRATE radio stations. Arrr.

  419. here’s a dumb one:

    Given the shortness of time before President Trump is out of office, congressional censure is the best way to stigmatize the soon-to-be former president for his despicable actions in fomenting a mob attack on Congress at the very moment legislators were carrying out their constitutional duties to certify the will of American voters.

    oooh… a censure!
    maybe we can send him home with a sternly-worded letter for his mommy to sign, too.

  420. here’s a dumb one:

    Given the shortness of time before President Trump is out of office, congressional censure is the best way to stigmatize the soon-to-be former president for his despicable actions in fomenting a mob attack on Congress at the very moment legislators were carrying out their constitutional duties to certify the will of American voters.

    oooh… a censure!
    maybe we can send him home with a sternly-worded letter for his mommy to sign, too.

  421. will-only-stoke-new-grievances
    But their track record suggests that they will find more grievances regardless. So that shouldn’t be a consideration.

  422. will-only-stoke-new-grievances
    But their track record suggests that they will find more grievances regardless. So that shouldn’t be a consideration.

  423. From GFTNC’s Twitter link:

    These people are serious and they are going to keep escalating the violence until they are stopped by the force of law. There were many, many people there who were excited by the violence and proud and excited about the prospect of more violence.

    This is not over. There will be more, at least more attempts.
    These people have been able to operate mostly or entirely in the open, basically due to the fact that they’ve been written off as cranks and fringe actors.
    They may not be able to operate quite as openly at this point, because they’ve shown their hand and now we all know what they are (if we didn’t know before). But they aren’t going away.

  424. From GFTNC’s Twitter link:

    These people are serious and they are going to keep escalating the violence until they are stopped by the force of law. There were many, many people there who were excited by the violence and proud and excited about the prospect of more violence.

    This is not over. There will be more, at least more attempts.
    These people have been able to operate mostly or entirely in the open, basically due to the fact that they’ve been written off as cranks and fringe actors.
    They may not be able to operate quite as openly at this point, because they’ve shown their hand and now we all know what they are (if we didn’t know before). But they aren’t going away.

  427. I can’t help believing that DJT thought he was going to THE Alamo, when the visit to Alamo was planned. Sort of like Four Seasons landscaping…

  428. I can’t help believing that DJT thought he was going to THE Alamo, when the visit to Alamo was planned. Sort of like Four Seasons landscaping…

  431. and away we go!

    House Democrats on Monday formally introduced an article of impeachment against President Trump, charging him with “incitement of insurrection” for his role in the takeover of the U.S. Capitol last week by a violent pro-Trump mob. The House could vote as early as Wednesday.
    House Republicans blocked a measure calling on Vice President Pence and the Cabinet to remove Trump under the 25th Amendment, a move that ensures a vote in the full House on Tuesday.

  432. and away we go!

    House Democrats on Monday formally introduced an article of impeachment against President Trump, charging him with “incitement of insurrection” for his role in the takeover of the U.S. Capitol last week by a violent pro-Trump mob. The House could vote as early as Wednesday.
    House Republicans blocked a measure calling on Vice President Pence and the Cabinet to remove Trump under the 25th Amendment, a move that ensures a vote in the full House on Tuesday.

  433. I can’t help believing that DJT thought he was going to THE Alamo, when the visit to Alamo was planned. Sort of like Four Seasons landscaping…
    As long as he does not go to Los Alamos…
    On the other hand, couldn’t we consider a remake of “The Beast of Yucca Flats”?
    But how to separate Jabbabonk from the orange entity above?

  434. I can’t help believing that DJT thought he was going to THE Alamo, when the visit to Alamo was planned. Sort of like Four Seasons landscaping…
    As long as he does not go to Los Alamos…
    On the other hand, couldn’t we consider a remake of “The Beast of Yucca Flats”?
    But how to separate Jabbabonk from the orange entity above?

  441. Consider Lindsey Graham.
    (Sorry, but:)
    Graham is a vacuum seeking validation by the nearest Big Daddy he can find. His rhetoric, politics, and even demeanor changes as he gloms on to a new Big Daddy. It changes faster than an octopus’ coloring.
    Now: imagine that a lot of the folks who showed up to rampage on Jan 6th are a lot like Lindsey. Basically empty, with no inner values other than self-preservation. Like Lindsey, they glom onto whoever looks Big and Strong enough to give them what they don’t have(i.e., a strong sense of identity).
    Lindsey was one thing when his Daddy was John McCain. He was an entirely other thing when his Daddy was Donald Trump.
    If – and it is a BIG if – the empty vessels like those who showed up on the 6th glom onto someone who is NOT a Trump or Trump-adjacent seditionist, then it is quite likely their behavior will change as fast as Lindsey’s did.
    Because that’s what vacuums do. They look for someone to suck up to; and their allegiances turn on a dime once they’ve found that someone.
    Note that Cruz and Hawley are obviously angling to be the next Big Daddy. Fortunately, both of them have the charisma of a used snotrag.

  442. Consider Lindsey Graham.
    (Sorry, but:)
    Graham is a vacuum seeking validation by the nearest Big Daddy he can find. His rhetoric, politics, and even demeanor changes as he gloms on to a new Big Daddy. It changes faster than an octopus’ coloring.
    Now: imagine that a lot of the folks who showed up to rampage on Jan 6th are a lot like Lindsey. Basically empty, with no inner values other than self-preservation. Like Lindsey, they glom onto whoever looks Big and Strong enough to give them what they don’t have(i.e., a strong sense of identity).
    Lindsey was one thing when his Daddy was John McCain. He was an entirely other thing when his Daddy was Donald Trump.
    If – and it is a BIG if – the empty vessels like those who showed up on the 6th glom onto someone who is NOT a Trump or Trump-adjacent seditionist, then it is quite likely their behavior will change as fast as Lindsey’s did.
    Because that’s what vacuums do. They look for someone to suck up to; and their allegiances turn on a dime once they’ve found that someone.
    Note that Cruz and Hawley are obviously angling to be the next Big Daddy. Fortunately, both of them have the charisma of a used snotrag.

  443. “I can’t help believing that DJT thought he was going to THE Alamo”
    Someone should invite a bunch of Mexicans to show DJT how “the Alamo” turned out.

  444. “I can’t help believing that DJT thought he was going to THE Alamo”
    Someone should invite a bunch of Mexicans to show DJT how “the Alamo” turned out.

  445. Fortunately, both of them have the charisma of a used snotrag.
    This is very true. And the used snotrag might actually have the edge.

  446. Fortunately, both of them have the charisma of a used snotrag.
    This is very true. And the used snotrag might actually have the edge.

  447. On the other hand, just saw Biden getting his second vaccination with rolled up sleeve – he’s rather buff!

  448. On the other hand, just saw Biden getting his second vaccination with rolled up sleeve – he’s rather buff!

  459. Despite all the outrage sparked by last week’s riot, Trump still has grounds for believing that he won’t receive any immediate sanctions for openly inciting an insurrection. It’s conceivable that he could be punished further down the road, but even that is far from certain. Repeating a tragic pattern that has been evident since he launched his first Presidential bid, in 2015, the American political system is proving too weak and divided to deal with the threat he poses.
    From this, in the New Yorker.
    It ends:
    In this country, the job of policing the President falls largely on the legislative branch. For four years, it has failed dismally to carry out this task. Even after the unprecedented events of last week, it’s far from clear that Congress will prove up to the task now. But this time, surely, and for the sake of American democracy, Trump must be held accountable.
    Let’s bloody hope so.

  460. Despite all the outrage sparked by last week’s riot, Trump still has grounds for believing that he won’t receive any immediate sanctions for openly inciting an insurrection. It’s conceivable that he could be punished further down the road, but even that is far from certain. Repeating a tragic pattern that has been evident since he launched his first Presidential bid, in 2015, the American political system is proving too weak and divided to deal with the threat he poses.
    From this, in the New Yorker.
    It ends:
    In this country, the job of policing the President falls largely on the legislative branch. For four years, it has failed dismally to carry out this task. Even after the unprecedented events of last week, it’s far from clear that Congress will prove up to the task now. But this time, surely, and for the sake of American democracy, Trump must be held accountable.
    Let’s bloody hope so.

  461. At least it appears that the House will have to vote on an(other) impeachment resolution. Which will a) force Republicans in the House to go on record about whether they are OK with last week, and b) pass. And then (although probably after Jan 20) the Senators will be forced to do the same.
    I am not particularly optimistic that the Senate will convict. But having to go on record will be good for their souls.

  462. At least it appears that the House will have to vote on an(other) impeachment resolution. Which will a) force Republicans in the House to go on record about whether they are OK with last week, and b) pass. And then (although probably after Jan 20) the Senators will be forced to do the same.
    I am not particularly optimistic that the Senate will convict. But having to go on record will be good for their souls.

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