by liberal japonicus
In Fowles’ The French Lieutenant’s Woman, the author (well, I think it is the author) muses on the fact that the structure of the printed text makes it so it is automatically an imperfect reflection of reality. You know that the story will end when you get to the end of the book. Different authors try to get around that in various ways. (Fowles tried it by writing three equally plausible endings, George R. R. Martin is trying it by not ever finishing…) but face it, you get to the end of the book, you know something is going to end.
I’d have given my eye teeth to have thought of this ‘End of an Error‘ title, but I’ll just have to say, if this were a novel, I’d be happily digging into these last pages, watching as the big orange loser, in full temper tatrum mode, goes off kicking and screaming. And just in case I’m being too arch with the title, what I mean is that I really would have enjoyed this little election had I known the outcome. But looking back on the last few days, it’s been nice to watch him twist in the wind. I mentioned that part of my support for Warren, or actually any woman was based on the fact that it would have been so satisfying to watch a woman kick this guy’s ass. In the comments, there was the observation (and I’m not sure who to attribute it to, but I like it a lot) is that if the early votes were counted, we would have a narrative of Biden winning and Orangeshite slowly but inevitably left behind.
Maybe in one of the reboots…
It was hairshirt that said it, and kudos to him for saying it.
–TP
It was hairshirt that said it, and kudos to him for saying it.
–TP
part of my support for Warren, or actually any woman was based on the fact that it would have been so satisfying to watch a woman kick this guy’s ass.
Satisfying as it would have been (very!), the critical part was getting him booted out.
part of my support for Warren, or actually any woman was based on the fact that it would have been so satisfying to watch a woman kick this guy’s ass.
Satisfying as it would have been (very!), the critical part was getting him booted out.
wj, that’s the thing about reboots… you get to keep the critical parts and play around with everything else…
wj, that’s the thing about reboots… you get to keep the critical parts and play around with everything else…
And apologies for not acknowledging hsh, who got this thought train rolling.
And apologies for not acknowledging hsh, who got this thought train rolling.
the critical part was getting him booted out
Yes. And it’s perfectly possible, likely even, that Biden was the only one of the Dem contenders who could have done it, things in the US being as they are. Cometh the hour, cometh the man.
the critical part was getting him booted out
Yes. And it’s perfectly possible, likely even, that Biden was the only one of the Dem contenders who could have done it, things in the US being as they are. Cometh the hour, cometh the man.
Given that the rationale of the Biden candidacy was him not being Trump, I suspect any of the non-fringe Democratic contenders would have done roughly as well.
Of course margins were close enough in decisive states that “roughly” could have been the difference between an EC win or loss.
Given that the rationale of the Biden candidacy was him not being Trump, I suspect any of the non-fringe Democratic contenders would have done roughly as well.
Of course margins were close enough in decisive states that “roughly” could have been the difference between an EC win or loss.
There are apocalyptic levels of relief on my Facebook feed, chock-a-block with liberals. They clearly see the end of a bad dream. The problem with tomorrow is that we are in the Never-Ending Story. As someone once said, “tomorrow is another day”.
There are apocalyptic levels of relief on my Facebook feed, chock-a-block with liberals. They clearly see the end of a bad dream. The problem with tomorrow is that we are in the Never-Ending Story. As someone once said, “tomorrow is another day”.
Given that the rationale of the Biden candidacy was him not being Trump, I suspect any of the non-fringe Democratic contenders would have done roughly as well.
Except that the rationale, as I understood it, was that he was not Trump and not radical. Which is why the Trump campaign kept trying to paint him as radical (a lost cause), or at least as a puppet for radicals.
So, unless you draw “non-fringe” really wide, no. Bloomberg or Klobuchar, sure. And I’d guess that the country has evolved enough that Buttigeig might have done as well, too. But beyond there? Some pretty non-radical choices that still could have been far more successfully painted as extreme and scary.
Given that the rationale of the Biden candidacy was him not being Trump, I suspect any of the non-fringe Democratic contenders would have done roughly as well.
Except that the rationale, as I understood it, was that he was not Trump and not radical. Which is why the Trump campaign kept trying to paint him as radical (a lost cause), or at least as a puppet for radicals.
So, unless you draw “non-fringe” really wide, no. Bloomberg or Klobuchar, sure. And I’d guess that the country has evolved enough that Buttigeig might have done as well, too. But beyond there? Some pretty non-radical choices that still could have been far more successfully painted as extreme and scary.
the Never-Ending Story
True enough, but much better than the ending story!
Forever vigilant – we have to remember that we can’t rest in taking our civic life seriously. It seems that if we want a democratic government that functions without corruption, with compassion and tolerance, that allows people to live mostly as they choose, but with some responsibility to contribute to the common good, we have to fight for it, because a lot of people don’t care about those principles at all.
the Never-Ending Story
True enough, but much better than the ending story!
Forever vigilant – we have to remember that we can’t rest in taking our civic life seriously. It seems that if we want a democratic government that functions without corruption, with compassion and tolerance, that allows people to live mostly as they choose, but with some responsibility to contribute to the common good, we have to fight for it, because a lot of people don’t care about those principles at all.
But beyond there?
Well, obviously…..the abyss.
But beyond there?
Well, obviously…..the abyss.
I suspect any of the non-fringe Democratic contenders would have done roughly as well.
Not accusing people here, but my FB feed, full of hard core Marxists I suppose, are saying ‘gee, had we had XX, think of the margin of victory’
which is crap. As has been observed, the problem is not candidate, it’s the country.
I suspect any of the non-fringe Democratic contenders would have done roughly as well.
Not accusing people here, but my FB feed, full of hard core Marxists I suppose, are saying ‘gee, had we had XX, think of the margin of victory’
which is crap. As has been observed, the problem is not candidate, it’s the country.
Well, obviously…..the abyss.
Well, no. At least in the view of this conservative. (Although I have known real radical lefties, so I’m harder to con with merely liberals.)
But those with less experience are too readily convinced. As I think you will agree, on reflection. After all, they (and the propaganda outlets they frequent) consider Harris a socialist. Pretty sure that you greet that “analysis” with something between an eyeroll and a belly laugh.
Well, obviously…..the abyss.
Well, no. At least in the view of this conservative. (Although I have known real radical lefties, so I’m harder to con with merely liberals.)
But those with less experience are too readily convinced. As I think you will agree, on reflection. After all, they (and the propaganda outlets they frequent) consider Harris a socialist. Pretty sure that you greet that “analysis” with something between an eyeroll and a belly laugh.
Belly laughs
https://www.themarysue.com/trump-campaign-ends-with-saddest-press-conference-at-four-seasons-total-landscaping/
Belly laughs
https://www.themarysue.com/trump-campaign-ends-with-saddest-press-conference-at-four-seasons-total-landscaping/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfAzdQKPchQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfAzdQKPchQ
Click on this mess and maybe the TikTok video will download and play:
https://mail-attachment.googleusercontent.com/attachment/u/0/?ui=2&ik=f28ca5871a&attid=0.1&permmsgid=msg-f:1682753569170355525&th=175a57749eeb7545&view=att&disp=safe&sadnir=1&saddbat=ANGjdJ9LsymKN3bhOoVKL8m3WXZ9jUFLsFM4QADO4VwZivYaJUoYYF_7_mT-H_v-i1zdlisbnw_CRzeqkWlF5PfAHQNS2Ynds9eUcr_BfV93nH2HVTA75JjZbNyWtSVUzLgIGU8IFVi91KYo8I3sdXc12Thv9mGpkAb_xZ70FIG_DGHWW9kY0wC6jSNJK6BKXS1ngC_qYTPP-cFG25RcJ8JI1x26q5X0sdCxuJ9w-_rCSLdb8PWZmS6e5-wDPXIgrr3kgQ3uhH8di7lHcwd9wHRbWvLIkBEYh0vULgPn76Xj7UasptT5o-rF3cE1jDUfLj-68rr6HGxRkFgDG8ft1Bcog7YQDSpy4cgUQiyT8FlwG1eU8TdZhm1JkWizbJyuMq4R-0FDCJc7P7hhOx2ggQnm-Y1LnsJSudmg4L976PJ9VH56wA74SsZlSSDpQWMYK08VYbePYMRk3ldAQ04ZplhyKNqB8gZlznJY29BQROgLUQP2BGPuRmBkhaepnVM8X1KAb3TlijH2b5T_Xec6SPcUeKNtjnKG7czv0uqypvWmOnE4bJ3Yi3luFRZoJOdrcRZOMRicYPueqckuwjZ2eGhHPaXnUPilHQ9JonytphPJYuasTHdunrBor_PqAZ1-hh9SkwcMhx5jEt0zlfeJU0Oi5RH0NxJePCOZB3_Vt8sSKeeyUaAJIWqBHlrE_ps
Click on this mess and maybe the TikTok video will download and play:
https://mail-attachment.googleusercontent.com/attachment/u/0/?ui=2&ik=f28ca5871a&attid=0.1&permmsgid=msg-f:1682753569170355525&th=175a57749eeb7545&view=att&disp=safe&sadnir=1&saddbat=ANGjdJ9LsymKN3bhOoVKL8m3WXZ9jUFLsFM4QADO4VwZivYaJUoYYF_7_mT-H_v-i1zdlisbnw_CRzeqkWlF5PfAHQNS2Ynds9eUcr_BfV93nH2HVTA75JjZbNyWtSVUzLgIGU8IFVi91KYo8I3sdXc12Thv9mGpkAb_xZ70FIG_DGHWW9kY0wC6jSNJK6BKXS1ngC_qYTPP-cFG25RcJ8JI1x26q5X0sdCxuJ9w-_rCSLdb8PWZmS6e5-wDPXIgrr3kgQ3uhH8di7lHcwd9wHRbWvLIkBEYh0vULgPn76Xj7UasptT5o-rF3cE1jDUfLj-68rr6HGxRkFgDG8ft1Bcog7YQDSpy4cgUQiyT8FlwG1eU8TdZhm1JkWizbJyuMq4R-0FDCJc7P7hhOx2ggQnm-Y1LnsJSudmg4L976PJ9VH56wA74SsZlSSDpQWMYK08VYbePYMRk3ldAQ04ZplhyKNqB8gZlznJY29BQROgLUQP2BGPuRmBkhaepnVM8X1KAb3TlijH2b5T_Xec6SPcUeKNtjnKG7czv0uqypvWmOnE4bJ3Yi3luFRZoJOdrcRZOMRicYPueqckuwjZ2eGhHPaXnUPilHQ9JonytphPJYuasTHdunrBor_PqAZ1-hh9SkwcMhx5jEt0zlfeJU0Oi5RH0NxJePCOZB3_Vt8sSKeeyUaAJIWqBHlrE_ps
I hadn’t seen this before. Joe Biden being inappropriate (not) with the young son with Down’s syndrome of a teacher who had been killed in a school shooting:
https://twitter.com/RobOHanrahan/status/1325171142328381440
I hadn’t seen this before. Joe Biden being inappropriate (not) with the young son with Down’s syndrome of a teacher who had been killed in a school shooting:
https://twitter.com/RobOHanrahan/status/1325171142328381440
Please can we have another 24 hours? Carole Cadwalladr retweeted this, the crowd singing the Star Spangled Banner in front of the White House, and I am almost welling up. This Land is Your Land would put me over the edge:
https://twitter.com/RobOHanrahan/status/1325171142328381440
Please can we have another 24 hours? Carole Cadwalladr retweeted this, the crowd singing the Star Spangled Banner in front of the White House, and I am almost welling up. This Land is Your Land would put me over the edge:
https://twitter.com/RobOHanrahan/status/1325171142328381440
Sorry, wrong clip.
https://twitter.com/karaswisher/status/1325185256677208067
Sorry, wrong clip.
https://twitter.com/karaswisher/status/1325185256677208067
it’ll be over for me the day WaPo has zero articles with “Trump” in the headline on their front page. or the day Colbert (or Trevor Noah) does a monologue that isn’t entirely about Trump.
it’s been almost 5 years of non-stop TRUMP!
it’ll be over for me the day WaPo has zero articles with “Trump” in the headline on their front page. or the day Colbert (or Trevor Noah) does a monologue that isn’t entirely about Trump.
it’s been almost 5 years of non-stop TRUMP!
In 2022 the Dems lose the House. In 2024 pretty much any Republican mainstream candidate will retake the WH.
This is getting up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom. The nightmare will continue.
Geez, it took a slightly less offensive version of Trump to eek out a victory with tons of Republicans not liking Trump personally. We elected a racist 70 plus year old white male and declared a victory for the left. There was not a single policy point at the center of the campaign. The Covid plan Biden talks about is just Trumps lack of a plan documented. He’s not going to shut down the economy, he’s going to shut down the disease(change he to I and thats a quote as stupid as it is). We are going to expand PPE production (this is pretty much done). Woohoo
It would boggle the mind if there had been any purpose except defeating Trump, which provides a pyrric victory ar best. The cost was extraordinary in money and what will be another Democratic fiasco.
As Republicans learned, winning at the cost of your principles means losing more than you gained.
As a final point, Biden will never be my President anymore than Trump was. His pablum crap about uniting the country is the most insulting form of bullshit. He doesn’t represent sny significant policy, could be full stop, that I agree with.
But all those other countries will like us again. Like any American should fing care about that.
Just in case anyone wondered what I thought.
In 2022 the Dems lose the House. In 2024 pretty much any Republican mainstream candidate will retake the WH.
This is getting up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom. The nightmare will continue.
Geez, it took a slightly less offensive version of Trump to eek out a victory with tons of Republicans not liking Trump personally. We elected a racist 70 plus year old white male and declared a victory for the left. There was not a single policy point at the center of the campaign. The Covid plan Biden talks about is just Trumps lack of a plan documented. He’s not going to shut down the economy, he’s going to shut down the disease(change he to I and thats a quote as stupid as it is). We are going to expand PPE production (this is pretty much done). Woohoo
It would boggle the mind if there had been any purpose except defeating Trump, which provides a pyrric victory ar best. The cost was extraordinary in money and what will be another Democratic fiasco.
As Republicans learned, winning at the cost of your principles means losing more than you gained.
As a final point, Biden will never be my President anymore than Trump was. His pablum crap about uniting the country is the most insulting form of bullshit. He doesn’t represent sny significant policy, could be full stop, that I agree with.
But all those other countries will like us again. Like any American should fing care about that.
Just in case anyone wondered what I thought.
In 2022 the Dems lose the House. In 2024 pretty much any Republican mainstream candidate will retake the WH.
Diarised for future reference. Praying to various deities you are wrong. And only the loony right is declaring “a victory for the left”, that’s the whole point. Other than that, hard to know what to say to you. Get some sleep, and hope you feel better in the morning.
In 2022 the Dems lose the House. In 2024 pretty much any Republican mainstream candidate will retake the WH.
Diarised for future reference. Praying to various deities you are wrong. And only the loony right is declaring “a victory for the left”, that’s the whole point. Other than that, hard to know what to say to you. Get some sleep, and hope you feel better in the morning.
In 2022 the Dems lose the House. In 2024 pretty much any Republican mainstream candidate will retake the WH.
Unfortunately, I am inclined to believe that part to be true.
Although ‘mainstream’ is up to debate. Not by the standards of any pre-Reagan Republican. Gingrich will be to the outmost left of what will be seen as GOP mainstream in the not so distant future and that will define where the winning GOP candidate can be expected to be to qualify.
In 2022 the Dems lose the House. In 2024 pretty much any Republican mainstream candidate will retake the WH.
Unfortunately, I am inclined to believe that part to be true.
Although ‘mainstream’ is up to debate. Not by the standards of any pre-Reagan Republican. Gingrich will be to the outmost left of what will be seen as GOP mainstream in the not so distant future and that will define where the winning GOP candidate can be expected to be to qualify.
I feel fine GftNC, this is all just politics, my real life is much improved lately.
Be well.
I feel fine GftNC, this is all just politics, my real life is much improved lately.
Be well.
Good.
Be well.
Right back atcha.
Good.
Be well.
Right back atcha.
This is possibly the most significant story of the campaign. And more importantly, the couple of years preceding it.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/08/stacey-abrams-believers-georgia-blue-434985
If the Democrats were to learn its lessons, then Marty’s 2022 forecasts would be so much empty air.
We’ll see.
This is possibly the most significant story of the campaign. And more importantly, the couple of years preceding it.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/08/stacey-abrams-believers-georgia-blue-434985
If the Democrats were to learn its lessons, then Marty’s 2022 forecasts would be so much empty air.
We’ll see.
As for policies, the RNC didn’t even adopt a platform.
If the Senate doesn’t completely stall him, Biden will get much done.
As for policies, the RNC didn’t even adopt a platform.
If the Senate doesn’t completely stall him, Biden will get much done.
it took a slightly less offensive version of Trump to eek out a victory with tons of Republicans not liking Trump personally. We elected a racist 70 plus year old white male and declared a victory for the left.
this is utterly delusional.
There was not a single policy point at the center of the campaign
if you don’t count healthcare, infrastructure, climate, police reform, COVID, taxes, schools, etc, etc – which, of course you can’t, because your shitty fraudulent party never talked about any of that. for the GOP, screaming “jobs not mobs” and “socialism!” is a deep policy debate.
As a final point, Biden will never be my President anymore than Trump was
oh noes.
it took a slightly less offensive version of Trump to eek out a victory with tons of Republicans not liking Trump personally. We elected a racist 70 plus year old white male and declared a victory for the left.
this is utterly delusional.
There was not a single policy point at the center of the campaign
if you don’t count healthcare, infrastructure, climate, police reform, COVID, taxes, schools, etc, etc – which, of course you can’t, because your shitty fraudulent party never talked about any of that. for the GOP, screaming “jobs not mobs” and “socialism!” is a deep policy debate.
As a final point, Biden will never be my President anymore than Trump was
oh noes.
Stacey Abrams is a real, live heroine. May her example spread, flower and fruit throughout the land.
Stacey Abrams is a real, live heroine. May her example spread, flower and fruit throughout the land.
Marty, you may reject Biden, but Biden will not reject you.
Which is the opposite of Trump’s attitude to anyone who doesn’t back him.
Marty, you may reject Biden, but Biden will not reject you.
Which is the opposite of Trump’s attitude to anyone who doesn’t back him.
more on this.
this is utterly delusional.
look at what Marty’s trying to pull here. “conservatives” are going to pretend they never supported Trump personally. despite the party’s unanimous refusal to try to rebuke him in any way, for anything he did, ever. it was 99.44% support, all the time, in all things. except for those few times they’d mumble something about his tweets not being ‘helpful’. such brave men and women! much moral compass.
oh sure, part of that is because they wouldn’t want to be seen agreeing with the Democrats about anything – but that’s a pathetic as supporting Trump directly, which they did solidly.
and we’re going to hear that Biden is just as bad because %HANDWAVING%. “racist”! Biden the racist who served 8 years as Obama’s VP and who just got elected alongside a Jamaican/Indian woman. Biden, a genial back-slapping centrist is going to be cast as Trump’s mirror image just so “conservatives” can pretend supporting Biden is the same as supporting and defending a flaming sack of garbage.
fuck that.
more on this.
this is utterly delusional.
look at what Marty’s trying to pull here. “conservatives” are going to pretend they never supported Trump personally. despite the party’s unanimous refusal to try to rebuke him in any way, for anything he did, ever. it was 99.44% support, all the time, in all things. except for those few times they’d mumble something about his tweets not being ‘helpful’. such brave men and women! much moral compass.
oh sure, part of that is because they wouldn’t want to be seen agreeing with the Democrats about anything – but that’s a pathetic as supporting Trump directly, which they did solidly.
and we’re going to hear that Biden is just as bad because %HANDWAVING%. “racist”! Biden the racist who served 8 years as Obama’s VP and who just got elected alongside a Jamaican/Indian woman. Biden, a genial back-slapping centrist is going to be cast as Trump’s mirror image just so “conservatives” can pretend supporting Biden is the same as supporting and defending a flaming sack of garbage.
fuck that.
cleanup on aisle three.
cleanup on aisle three.
if you don’t count healthcare, infrastructure, climate, police reform, COVID, taxes, schools, etc, etc …
Even if with the presidency and clear majorities in both houses of congress they wouldn’t get a lot of that done. They just wouldn’t have the bandwith. And probably not enough political capital.
if you don’t count healthcare, infrastructure, climate, police reform, COVID, taxes, schools, etc, etc …
Even if with the presidency and clear majorities in both houses of congress they wouldn’t get a lot of that done. They just wouldn’t have the bandwith. And probably not enough political capital.
Well, now that everybody is going to be telling Joe Biden what to do, I might as well jump in with this.
And AOC has an interesting interview in the Times here.
Looks like a return to your regularly scheduled programming. Good luck, Joey.
Well, now that everybody is going to be telling Joe Biden what to do, I might as well jump in with this.
And AOC has an interesting interview in the Times here.
Looks like a return to your regularly scheduled programming. Good luck, Joey.
Marty and Ralph Nader walk into a bar.
“How’s it going, Marty?” asked Ralph.
“Oh, the usual shit, Ralph. Another meaningless election between two unlikable nobodies, that don’t have any policies that I like.”
Yeah. They’re both the same, right?”
“Well, maybe. But saying that gives me a lot of social cover for my otherwise reprehensible policy preferences. My turn to buy?”
Marty and Ralph Nader walk into a bar.
“How’s it going, Marty?” asked Ralph.
“Oh, the usual shit, Ralph. Another meaningless election between two unlikable nobodies, that don’t have any policies that I like.”
Yeah. They’re both the same, right?”
“Well, maybe. But saying that gives me a lot of social cover for my otherwise reprehensible policy preferences. My turn to buy?”
Meanwhile, my homies and I (varying degrees of leftiness) are drinking champagne with multiple toasts to Joe and Kamila and Stacey Abrams…
Meanwhile, my homies and I (varying degrees of leftiness) are drinking champagne with multiple toasts to Joe and Kamila and Stacey Abrams…
bobby indeed.
Trump hit 95% job approval among Republicans in Gallup’s most recent poll. his highest mark ever.
bobby indeed.
Trump hit 95% job approval among Republicans in Gallup’s most recent poll. his highest mark ever.
Marty: As a final point, Biden will never be my President anymore than Trump was. His pablum crap about uniting the country is the most insulting form of bullshit. He doesn’t represent sny significant policy, could be full stop, that I agree with.
I wonder in what sense He, Trump was never Marty’s president. Maybe Marty reliably piping up to support His policies, excuse or outright defend His outrages, and parrot His bullshit assertions, right here in these archived pages, was just a bad 4-year-long dream.
I do agree with Marty that talk of “uniting the country” is bullshit. As long as the likes of Marty keep thinking that they are the only Real Americans(TM) and those of us who share young Tommy Jefferson’s “decent respect to the opinions of mankind” are not, we don’t have a single country to unite.
Marty: I feel fine GftNC, this is all just politics
Yeah. It’s just a sport where we get to root for our favorite team and then trade recipes or discuss music afterwards. It has nothing to do with real life stuff like death or taxes. Whether we root for the Red Sox or the Yankees says no more about our morality or decency than whether we root for Team Blue or Team Orange.
–TP
Marty: As a final point, Biden will never be my President anymore than Trump was. His pablum crap about uniting the country is the most insulting form of bullshit. He doesn’t represent sny significant policy, could be full stop, that I agree with.
I wonder in what sense He, Trump was never Marty’s president. Maybe Marty reliably piping up to support His policies, excuse or outright defend His outrages, and parrot His bullshit assertions, right here in these archived pages, was just a bad 4-year-long dream.
I do agree with Marty that talk of “uniting the country” is bullshit. As long as the likes of Marty keep thinking that they are the only Real Americans(TM) and those of us who share young Tommy Jefferson’s “decent respect to the opinions of mankind” are not, we don’t have a single country to unite.
Marty: I feel fine GftNC, this is all just politics
Yeah. It’s just a sport where we get to root for our favorite team and then trade recipes or discuss music afterwards. It has nothing to do with real life stuff like death or taxes. Whether we root for the Red Sox or the Yankees says no more about our morality or decency than whether we root for Team Blue or Team Orange.
–TP
a slightly less offensive version of Trump
That is a really weird take on Joe Biden.
His pablum crap about uniting the country is the most insulting form of bullshit.
Agreed that it’s unrealistic. More’s the pity.
Odd that you should find it insulting. It’s like taking offense at somebody wishing you well, or thinking the best of you.
You could be right as far as your predictions, see also AOC’s comments in bobbyp’s link. The (D)’s have neglected the fine art of running everywhere, all the time. Let’s hope they bring their game up over the next couple of years.
Sorry you’re feeling unrepresented by the folks in DC. Welcome to the club.
a slightly less offensive version of Trump
That is a really weird take on Joe Biden.
His pablum crap about uniting the country is the most insulting form of bullshit.
Agreed that it’s unrealistic. More’s the pity.
Odd that you should find it insulting. It’s like taking offense at somebody wishing you well, or thinking the best of you.
You could be right as far as your predictions, see also AOC’s comments in bobbyp’s link. The (D)’s have neglected the fine art of running everywhere, all the time. Let’s hope they bring their game up over the next couple of years.
Sorry you’re feeling unrepresented by the folks in DC. Welcome to the club.
I suspect Nigel (11:18) is right. Georgia may well be THE story of this election.
It will be telling if the Democrats manage to flip both Senate seats in January. Especially since it’s a special election, and historically they have difficulties turning out their voters for those.
I suspect Nigel (11:18) is right. Georgia may well be THE story of this election.
It will be telling if the Democrats manage to flip both Senate seats in January. Especially since it’s a special election, and historically they have difficulties turning out their voters for those.
Stacey Abrams is a real, live heroine.
If the (D)’s have any sense at all, they will give Abrams responsibility for GOTV at the national level, and then stay the hell out of her way.
Stacey Abrams is a real, live heroine.
If the (D)’s have any sense at all, they will give Abrams responsibility for GOTV at the national level, and then stay the hell out of her way.
He doesn’t represent any significant policy, could be full stop, that I agree with.
Are you saying that you’re against taking global warming seriously?
The rest of the world is relieved that the president of the USA will no longer be indifferent to environmental destruction. Albeit concerned that Marty’s friends in the Senate will try to stop him doing anything about it.
He doesn’t represent any significant policy, could be full stop, that I agree with.
Are you saying that you’re against taking global warming seriously?
The rest of the world is relieved that the president of the USA will no longer be indifferent to environmental destruction. Albeit concerned that Marty’s friends in the Senate will try to stop him doing anything about it.
I do agree with Marty that talk of “uniting the country” is bullshit.
I don’t think that’s right. It may be unrealistic. Delusional, even. But I think he honestly believes that it is a) desirable, and b) possible. So “bullshit” isn’t really the term. Even if you disabree with a) or b) or both.
I do agree with Marty that talk of “uniting the country” is bullshit.
I don’t think that’s right. It may be unrealistic. Delusional, even. But I think he honestly believes that it is a) desirable, and b) possible. So “bullshit” isn’t really the term. Even if you disabree with a) or b) or both.
russell @12.53; completely agree.
russell @12.53; completely agree.
If the (D)’s have any sense at all, they will give Abrams responsibility for GOTV at the national level, and then stay the hell out of her way.
Nope. If they have any sense, they will put her in charge of voter registration, as well as GOTV. And then give her all the support and backing they can muster. Just GOTV isn’t adequate for what they need. And just staying out of her way isn’t either.
If the (D)’s have any sense at all, they will give Abrams responsibility for GOTV at the national level, and then stay the hell out of her way.
Nope. If they have any sense, they will put her in charge of voter registration, as well as GOTV. And then give her all the support and backing they can muster. Just GOTV isn’t adequate for what they need. And just staying out of her way isn’t either.
BTW, should have made clear: FWIW even my right-wing friends here are overjoyed and texting happiness and relief.
BTW, should have made clear: FWIW even my right-wing friends here are overjoyed and texting happiness and relief.
It’s impossible to overstate the contempt and dislike in which Trump has been held here, by decent people of EVERY political stripe.
It’s impossible to overstate the contempt and dislike in which Trump has been held here, by decent people of EVERY political stripe.
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/11/a-sober-assessment
There is nothing for it except NOT remaining sober. In any sense of the word.
I don’t see a way through as one country.
The bullshit Republican Party governing me via the malignant, cheating, ruthless methods by which they have fucked our institutions for eternity, regardless of elections, is their signature on THEIR death warrant.
If my candidates are denied governance whether they win OR lose, we move from checks and balances to the catastrophic end game.
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/11/a-sober-assessment
There is nothing for it except NOT remaining sober. In any sense of the word.
I don’t see a way through as one country.
The bullshit Republican Party governing me via the malignant, cheating, ruthless methods by which they have fucked our institutions for eternity, regardless of elections, is their signature on THEIR death warrant.
If my candidates are denied governance whether they win OR lose, we move from checks and balances to the catastrophic end game.
Are you saying that you’re against taking global warming seriously?
He will never say that, but he will resolutely oppose any serious public policy that would effectively address this existential threat.
You could insert “racism” in that sentence, and you would have the same result, because Marty would assert (in deeply aggrieved language) that structural racism simply does not exist.
Are you saying that you’re against taking global warming seriously?
He will never say that, but he will resolutely oppose any serious public policy that would effectively address this existential threat.
You could insert “racism” in that sentence, and you would have the same result, because Marty would assert (in deeply aggrieved language) that structural racism simply does not exist.
For anyone convinced that, policy-wise (as opposed to tone-wise) Biden will be no different than Trump, try reading this
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/biden-first-executive-orders-measures/2020/11/07/9fb9c1d0-210b-11eb-b532-05c751cd5dc2_story.html
For anyone convinced that, policy-wise (as opposed to tone-wise) Biden will be no different than Trump, try reading this
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/biden-first-executive-orders-measures/2020/11/07/9fb9c1d0-210b-11eb-b532-05c751cd5dc2_story.html
He will never say that, but he will resolutely oppose any serious public policy that would effectively address this existential threat.
as long as it’s proposed by a Democrat.
He will never say that, but he will resolutely oppose any serious public policy that would effectively address this existential threat.
as long as it’s proposed by a Democrat.
Even if with the presidency and clear majorities in both houses of congress they wouldn’t get a lot of that done.
no, they won’t get it all done. but they did run on it. they campaigned on it. it was, in fact, the central point of the Dem message.
Dems ran on the issues. GOP ran on Be Afraid of Democrats!
Even if with the presidency and clear majorities in both houses of congress they wouldn’t get a lot of that done.
no, they won’t get it all done. but they did run on it. they campaigned on it. it was, in fact, the central point of the Dem message.
Dems ran on the issues. GOP ran on Be Afraid of Democrats!
According to the GOP’s 2016 election standards Biden just won a historic landslide victory. According to the GOP’S 2000 election standards Biden has all the mandate and political capital he wants.
And the idea that “nothing will actually change” is just extremely silly. All the damage to our country that won’t occur over the next 4 years because Trump is gone is not meaningless. Getting Bill Barr out of DOJ, and Stephen Miller out of the White House, for starters, will greatly improve our country.
According to the GOP’s 2016 election standards Biden just won a historic landslide victory. According to the GOP’S 2000 election standards Biden has all the mandate and political capital he wants.
And the idea that “nothing will actually change” is just extremely silly. All the damage to our country that won’t occur over the next 4 years because Trump is gone is not meaningless. Getting Bill Barr out of DOJ, and Stephen Miller out of the White House, for starters, will greatly improve our country.
Getting Bill Barr out of DOJ, and Stephen Miller out of the White House, for starters, will greatly improve our country.
Amen! Although there are a lot of other reality-challenged ideologues scattered across various technical agencies, from the BLM to the National Weather Service, who we will be well rid of as well. Not as high profile, perhaps, but still damaging. Often significantly.
Getting Bill Barr out of DOJ, and Stephen Miller out of the White House, for starters, will greatly improve our country.
Amen! Although there are a lot of other reality-challenged ideologues scattered across various technical agencies, from the BLM to the National Weather Service, who we will be well rid of as well. Not as high profile, perhaps, but still damaging. Often significantly.
OK that was fun, I wish Biden / Harris all the best and hope they don’t drag us into another war – who knows, maybe they’ll actually end one or two. And then there’s climate change.
Now back to Covid and Brexit, meh.
OK that was fun, I wish Biden / Harris all the best and hope they don’t drag us into another war – who knows, maybe they’ll actually end one or two. And then there’s climate change.
Now back to Covid and Brexit, meh.
I do agree with Marty that talk of “uniting the country” is bullshit.
i think Biden means it, and wishes it could happen.
place you bets on the number of days till McConnell announces his desire to make Biden a one-term president.
I do agree with Marty that talk of “uniting the country” is bullshit.
i think Biden means it, and wishes it could happen.
place you bets on the number of days till McConnell announces his desire to make Biden a one-term president.
wj,
What does “uniting the country” mean, operationally? That’s not snark. I really would like to know.
Are there policies Biden, Pelosi, and (in our wildest fantasies) Schumer could champion (or in our even wilder fantasies, enact) that would make He, Trump’s supporters feel less inclined to abuse asylum seekers, disenfranchise poor people, dismiss science, cling to conspiracy theories, or think of themselves as the only remaining True Americans? I’m open to suggestions.
–TP
wj,
What does “uniting the country” mean, operationally? That’s not snark. I really would like to know.
Are there policies Biden, Pelosi, and (in our wildest fantasies) Schumer could champion (or in our even wilder fantasies, enact) that would make He, Trump’s supporters feel less inclined to abuse asylum seekers, disenfranchise poor people, dismiss science, cling to conspiracy theories, or think of themselves as the only remaining True Americans? I’m open to suggestions.
–TP
Are there policies Biden, Pelosi, and (in our wildest fantasies) Schumer could champion…
i don’t think it’s about policies. i think it’s more about wishing partisanship would subside enough to get people to stop saying shit like “Biden will never be my President anymore than Trump was”. it’s not going to, though. it’s going to keep getting worse.
it would take a cataclysmic outside event to get us to put that aside. and even then…
Are there policies Biden, Pelosi, and (in our wildest fantasies) Schumer could champion…
i don’t think it’s about policies. i think it’s more about wishing partisanship would subside enough to get people to stop saying shit like “Biden will never be my President anymore than Trump was”. it’s not going to, though. it’s going to keep getting worse.
it would take a cataclysmic outside event to get us to put that aside. and even then…
Marty also wrote:
“But all those other countries will like us again. Like any American should fing care about that.”
Substitute “all those other countries” with “all those Americans to the left of Mitch McConnell” and we can understand why those other countries are building up their nuclear weapons arsenals and aiming half of them at America.
Despicable, subhuman, self-preening nationalism, which tragically is infecting all those other countries as well as conservative, crypto-religious Other-haters have their way across the globe.
It’ll be interesting to see, post-pandemic, how many counties open their borders to we arrogant ugly American jagoff treaty-breaking know-it-alls again.
These conservative Trump filth haven’t just ruined America, they have ruined the world for decent Americans as well and I hate their guts for it.
Marty also wrote:
“But all those other countries will like us again. Like any American should fing care about that.”
Substitute “all those other countries” with “all those Americans to the left of Mitch McConnell” and we can understand why those other countries are building up their nuclear weapons arsenals and aiming half of them at America.
Despicable, subhuman, self-preening nationalism, which tragically is infecting all those other countries as well as conservative, crypto-religious Other-haters have their way across the globe.
It’ll be interesting to see, post-pandemic, how many counties open their borders to we arrogant ugly American jagoff treaty-breaking know-it-alls again.
These conservative Trump filth haven’t just ruined America, they have ruined the world for decent Americans as well and I hate their guts for it.
Speaking personally, I would be happy to see other countries “like us again”. Or at least, a different set of countries “like us again”.
Anyone in the EU, for instance, rather than Saudi Arabia, whose nationals were 15 of the 19 on 9/11, who have been one of the biggest sponsors of militant theocratic Islam around the world, and whose leader ordered the murder and dismemberment of a US person for the crime of criticizing him.
And the dismissive “like” here refers in reality to a range of things. Respect, trust, recognition of common interests. Recognition of shared values, in some cases. A sense that relationships can be more than purely transactional.
Why that is something to dismiss or disparage is beyond me.
Speaking personally, I would be happy to see other countries “like us again”. Or at least, a different set of countries “like us again”.
Anyone in the EU, for instance, rather than Saudi Arabia, whose nationals were 15 of the 19 on 9/11, who have been one of the biggest sponsors of militant theocratic Islam around the world, and whose leader ordered the murder and dismemberment of a US person for the crime of criticizing him.
And the dismissive “like” here refers in reality to a range of things. Respect, trust, recognition of common interests. Recognition of shared values, in some cases. A sense that relationships can be more than purely transactional.
Why that is something to dismiss or disparage is beyond me.
Tony,
Poicies that would make Trump’s supporters feel less inclined to abuse asylum seekers, or disenfranchise poor people? Perhaps not. Certainly not quickly.
And enthusiasm for conspiracy theories seems to me to be an incurable mental disease. (One not, in my experience, limited to the right.) So no joy there either.
On the other hand, get them over dismissing science? I think that’s doable. A steady stream of stuff that they can see helps them, and which is prominently labeled as the result of science — I think that’s the path forward. The fruits of science aren’t the problem. It is, if you’ll pardon me, the PR that’s been the problem.
As for thinking of themselves as the only remaining True Americans? (Which might start to address the first problems.) I look at the incredible change in how homosexuals are regarded. Even on the right (albeit, admittedly, less so). It’s a matter of them finding themselves coworkers and friends with, even related to, people who are visibly different. See stories like this
https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2020/11/07/religion-trump-muslim-ban/
Some of that is obviously happening already with the younger generations. But even the older bigots may discover their beloved grandchildren bringing home potential spouses who are very different. Once, such kids would have gotten disinherited and generally booted out of the family. Now? Not so much.
Tony,
Poicies that would make Trump’s supporters feel less inclined to abuse asylum seekers, or disenfranchise poor people? Perhaps not. Certainly not quickly.
And enthusiasm for conspiracy theories seems to me to be an incurable mental disease. (One not, in my experience, limited to the right.) So no joy there either.
On the other hand, get them over dismissing science? I think that’s doable. A steady stream of stuff that they can see helps them, and which is prominently labeled as the result of science — I think that’s the path forward. The fruits of science aren’t the problem. It is, if you’ll pardon me, the PR that’s been the problem.
As for thinking of themselves as the only remaining True Americans? (Which might start to address the first problems.) I look at the incredible change in how homosexuals are regarded. Even on the right (albeit, admittedly, less so). It’s a matter of them finding themselves coworkers and friends with, even related to, people who are visibly different. See stories like this
https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2020/11/07/religion-trump-muslim-ban/
Some of that is obviously happening already with the younger generations. But even the older bigots may discover their beloved grandchildren bringing home potential spouses who are very different. Once, such kids would have gotten disinherited and generally booted out of the family. Now? Not so much.
But all those other countries will like us again. Like any American should fing care about that.
***
Why that is something to dismiss or disparage is beyond me.
This is a very interesting phenomenon which often masquerades as American exceptionalism i.e. “We’re the greatest nation on earth, we don’t need anybody else”. It is usually based on a tremendous insecurity e.g. “they all hate us anyway, so who needs them?” In fact Marty has displayed some of this attitude before (although not quite as nakedly) and had to be reminded of the times that America’s allies have supported her, which he has never acknowledged. I didn’t respond to it myself, because what on earth can you say to such a statement?
But all those other countries will like us again. Like any American should fing care about that.
***
Why that is something to dismiss or disparage is beyond me.
This is a very interesting phenomenon which often masquerades as American exceptionalism i.e. “We’re the greatest nation on earth, we don’t need anybody else”. It is usually based on a tremendous insecurity e.g. “they all hate us anyway, so who needs them?” In fact Marty has displayed some of this attitude before (although not quite as nakedly) and had to be reminded of the times that America’s allies have supported her, which he has never acknowledged. I didn’t respond to it myself, because what on earth can you say to such a statement?
By the way, I see above I called the Vice President elect Kamila Harris. It is of course Kamala Harris. Sorry, soon-to-be Madam Vice-President.
By the way, I see above I called the Vice President elect Kamila Harris. It is of course Kamala Harris. Sorry, soon-to-be Madam Vice-President.
I imagine that if we were to map out the edges of our political islands from the continuous continental drift of partisan politics, that all of the young/old, urban/rural, family values/LGBTQ rights divides would resolve into those who embrace pluralism and those who reject it. The older and more rural one is, the more potential there is to be alienated by the culture shock of difference. Not to say that those disconnects are inherent in age or cultural homogeneity, it’s just a heuristic for thinking about openness and identification.
In my personal sphere I have a much wider range of individuals than do my HS classmates that did not go to college and did not move more than 60 miles away from their rural home in the midwest. The people who matter to me are, as a whole, less like me than are the people that matter to my classmates. I’ve been alienated by and had to reconcile more questions about my own world than have they.
William Gibson once wrote that the future was already here, it just wasn’t evenly distributed. Well, the future is pushing itself in faster and harder now than ever and the groups that have had to do the least to adapt to the demands of the future are finding themselves with a much bigger and faster adaptive pressure than what I have gone through in the 30-some years that I have been out in the wider world.
I don’t know how to help them manage that pressure, but I can’t let the try to slow their adaptation down because they are killing us all with their choices.
I imagine that if we were to map out the edges of our political islands from the continuous continental drift of partisan politics, that all of the young/old, urban/rural, family values/LGBTQ rights divides would resolve into those who embrace pluralism and those who reject it. The older and more rural one is, the more potential there is to be alienated by the culture shock of difference. Not to say that those disconnects are inherent in age or cultural homogeneity, it’s just a heuristic for thinking about openness and identification.
In my personal sphere I have a much wider range of individuals than do my HS classmates that did not go to college and did not move more than 60 miles away from their rural home in the midwest. The people who matter to me are, as a whole, less like me than are the people that matter to my classmates. I’ve been alienated by and had to reconcile more questions about my own world than have they.
William Gibson once wrote that the future was already here, it just wasn’t evenly distributed. Well, the future is pushing itself in faster and harder now than ever and the groups that have had to do the least to adapt to the demands of the future are finding themselves with a much bigger and faster adaptive pressure than what I have gone through in the 30-some years that I have been out in the wider world.
I don’t know how to help them manage that pressure, but I can’t let the try to slow their adaptation down because they are killing us all with their choices.
“But all those other countries will like us again. Like any American should fing care about that.”
Fuck Your Feelings as foreign policy
Empathy deficiency disorder
“But all those other countries will like us again. Like any American should fing care about that.”
Fuck Your Feelings as foreign policy
Empathy deficiency disorder
the times that America’s allies have supported her,
Including, it must be noted, the one and only time that NATO’s mutual defense provision has actually been invoked. Which quite gives the lie to the claim that they are freeloading on us.
the times that America’s allies have supported her,
Including, it must be noted, the one and only time that NATO’s mutual defense provision has actually been invoked. Which quite gives the lie to the claim that they are freeloading on us.
TP, the way people root is no different. We are a nation of winners and losers. The losers are to be insulted and disparaged, the winners disparaged and their accomplishments demanded. We are a nation that infers intent from short term success or failure.
We just can’t recognize each othrrs successes along with the failures, it is beyond our ability to assume good will from our opponents.
People actually hate each other over being a Democrat or a Republican. Friends, family, and even soouses. “I just can’t get past the fact that you support Trump” was the proximate cause of two divorces I know of.
Nothing exceeds that lack of respect except perhaps the relationships like the Sunni and Shiite who shot their neighbors when Baghdad was freed.
And no I don’t support the Democrats subverting our policies to the whims of 90 other countries, most of whom dislike us in the first place so we can get poorer as a country while they all get richer and stronger.
Just look at how we were treated when we asked our closest friends to pay their fair share into NATO. Suddenly we were risky as an ally and no one should trust us.
The climate accords required levels of sacrifice from us demanded of literally no one else in the world, the Iran accords were just a way for Iran to get permission to build a nuclear weapon, while maintaining there status as the largestexporter of terror in the world.
That same stupid logic has us discussing defunding police because criminals get shot if they don’t obey police commands. WTF.
I’m happy with th science on climate change, and our current pace of addressing it. Our economy is pushing climate change solutions faster than any government could successfully achieve.
If you go look at my first comments on Covid I said we couldnt successfully do many of the things people kept saying we had to do, even Biden is no longer talking about broad based tracking and tracing, he has acknowledged that he won’t have the authority to shut down anything. His Covid policy is literally a document describing what we have done so far.
Its all politics. The left spent four years trying to delegitimize the current administration using every court and prosecutor and news station they could but when the Biden win gets a lawsuit it is simply unacceptable that anyone would question the legitimacy or integrity of our election system.
Its all about winning and losing with no honest evaluation of what actually happens in between the contests.
That’s what I meant.
TP, the way people root is no different. We are a nation of winners and losers. The losers are to be insulted and disparaged, the winners disparaged and their accomplishments demanded. We are a nation that infers intent from short term success or failure.
We just can’t recognize each othrrs successes along with the failures, it is beyond our ability to assume good will from our opponents.
People actually hate each other over being a Democrat or a Republican. Friends, family, and even soouses. “I just can’t get past the fact that you support Trump” was the proximate cause of two divorces I know of.
Nothing exceeds that lack of respect except perhaps the relationships like the Sunni and Shiite who shot their neighbors when Baghdad was freed.
And no I don’t support the Democrats subverting our policies to the whims of 90 other countries, most of whom dislike us in the first place so we can get poorer as a country while they all get richer and stronger.
Just look at how we were treated when we asked our closest friends to pay their fair share into NATO. Suddenly we were risky as an ally and no one should trust us.
The climate accords required levels of sacrifice from us demanded of literally no one else in the world, the Iran accords were just a way for Iran to get permission to build a nuclear weapon, while maintaining there status as the largestexporter of terror in the world.
That same stupid logic has us discussing defunding police because criminals get shot if they don’t obey police commands. WTF.
I’m happy with th science on climate change, and our current pace of addressing it. Our economy is pushing climate change solutions faster than any government could successfully achieve.
If you go look at my first comments on Covid I said we couldnt successfully do many of the things people kept saying we had to do, even Biden is no longer talking about broad based tracking and tracing, he has acknowledged that he won’t have the authority to shut down anything. His Covid policy is literally a document describing what we have done so far.
Its all politics. The left spent four years trying to delegitimize the current administration using every court and prosecutor and news station they could but when the Biden win gets a lawsuit it is simply unacceptable that anyone would question the legitimacy or integrity of our election system.
Its all about winning and losing with no honest evaluation of what actually happens in between the contests.
That’s what I meant.
People actually hate each other over being a Democrat or a Republican. Friends, family, and even soouses. “I just can’t get past the fact that you support Trump” was the proximate cause of two divorces I know of.
Those things are not the same. “I can’t past the fact that you support Trump” is not the same as (D) vs (R).
Its all about winning and losing with no honest evaluation of what actually happens in between the contests.
Since you are addressing this to this community, i.e. the readers of ObWi, I’ll respond in terms of this community.
What you’ve said here is not true of this community.
Maybe you were referring to some other group of people.
People actually hate each other over being a Democrat or a Republican. Friends, family, and even soouses. “I just can’t get past the fact that you support Trump” was the proximate cause of two divorces I know of.
Those things are not the same. “I can’t past the fact that you support Trump” is not the same as (D) vs (R).
Its all about winning and losing with no honest evaluation of what actually happens in between the contests.
Since you are addressing this to this community, i.e. the readers of ObWi, I’ll respond in terms of this community.
What you’ve said here is not true of this community.
Maybe you were referring to some other group of people.
If you go look at my first comments on Covid I said we couldnt successfully do many of the things people kept saying we had to do, even Biden is no longer talking about broad based tracking and tracing, he has acknowledged that he won’t have the authority to shut down anything. His Covid policy is literally a document describing what we have done so far.
This is an interesting take on those discussions. I was pretty involved in them, having just returned from Korea and comparing Korean and Japanese efforts and I too pointed out that many of the things that were needed would be very difficult in light of the way the US (and the West) places individualism above the common good. However, I had no idea whatsoever that the Trump led administration would actively work against those measures. I suppose the left stopped him from doing anything…
As I said before, Trump would have won had he made even the mildest of handwaves at appropriately dealing with the virus. But he couldn’t, because that was not in his nature. When you are a self-centered prick, you can’t help but see the world in the way you want it to.
If you go look at my first comments on Covid I said we couldnt successfully do many of the things people kept saying we had to do, even Biden is no longer talking about broad based tracking and tracing, he has acknowledged that he won’t have the authority to shut down anything. His Covid policy is literally a document describing what we have done so far.
This is an interesting take on those discussions. I was pretty involved in them, having just returned from Korea and comparing Korean and Japanese efforts and I too pointed out that many of the things that were needed would be very difficult in light of the way the US (and the West) places individualism above the common good. However, I had no idea whatsoever that the Trump led administration would actively work against those measures. I suppose the left stopped him from doing anything…
As I said before, Trump would have won had he made even the mildest of handwaves at appropriately dealing with the virus. But he couldn’t, because that was not in his nature. When you are a self-centered prick, you can’t help but see the world in the way you want it to.
His Covid policy is literally a document describing what we have done so far.
What “we” have “done so far” is… what, exactly?
His Covid policy is literally a document describing what we have done so far.
What “we” have “done so far” is… what, exactly?
but when the Biden win gets a lawsuit it is simply unacceptable that anyone would question the legitimacy or integrity of our election system.
Trump spent the last five years questioning the legitimacy and integrity of our election system. and in recent months he stepped it up to a truly revolting degree. he made it his re-election strategy, in fact: get his supporters to vote in-person then challenge the legitimacy of mail-in votes. and your party, top (from Kavanaugh’s lunacy) to bottom (armed assholes threatening poll workers), fell in line behind him.
the last five years have been a flood of Trump nonsense.
let it go.
move on.
get your party to a better place.
but when the Biden win gets a lawsuit it is simply unacceptable that anyone would question the legitimacy or integrity of our election system.
Trump spent the last five years questioning the legitimacy and integrity of our election system. and in recent months he stepped it up to a truly revolting degree. he made it his re-election strategy, in fact: get his supporters to vote in-person then challenge the legitimacy of mail-in votes. and your party, top (from Kavanaugh’s lunacy) to bottom (armed assholes threatening poll workers), fell in line behind him.
the last five years have been a flood of Trump nonsense.
let it go.
move on.
get your party to a better place.
what nous said.
what nous said.
And no I don’t support the Democrats subverting our policies to the whims of 90 other countries
And nobody would ever expect this. But this was not what you said.
most of whom dislike us in the first place so we can get poorer as a country while they all get richer and stronger.
Just look at how we were treated when we asked our closest friends to pay their fair share into NATO.
All of this is straight out of the Trump playbook, Marty, and is arrant nonsense. You may have disliked Trump, but you swallowed his bullshit hook line and sinker.
You know, it appears that your original comment in the middle of the night may have been phrased more combatively and insultingly than your actual opinions merited. This is certainly an interesting approach to people you have often said you like, respect and value. But perhaps, to quote russell:
Maybe you were referring to some other group of people.
And no I don’t support the Democrats subverting our policies to the whims of 90 other countries
And nobody would ever expect this. But this was not what you said.
most of whom dislike us in the first place so we can get poorer as a country while they all get richer and stronger.
Just look at how we were treated when we asked our closest friends to pay their fair share into NATO.
All of this is straight out of the Trump playbook, Marty, and is arrant nonsense. You may have disliked Trump, but you swallowed his bullshit hook line and sinker.
You know, it appears that your original comment in the middle of the night may have been phrased more combatively and insultingly than your actual opinions merited. This is certainly an interesting approach to people you have often said you like, respect and value. But perhaps, to quote russell:
Maybe you were referring to some other group of people.
Yes, I should have said: I also second what nous said.
Yes, I should have said: I also second what nous said.
I don’t support the Democrats subverting our policies to the whims of 90 other countries, most of whom dislike us in the first place so we can get poorer as a country while they all get richer and stronger.
No question, they got richer (and thus stronger) in part thanks to our support. But how did we get poorer? As far as I can see, we got richer, too.** Not least because they, being richer, can buy stuff from us, to our profit.
Granted, we may have become relatively less rich. But that is by no means the same as poorer in any absolute sense. It is entirely possible for everybody to get absolutely richer — and indeed, that is what has happened.
** Not only do we have historical records on this. I’ve got personal memories of all the stuff the everybody, even our poor, routinely has today that nobody had, or could have, when I was young.
I don’t support the Democrats subverting our policies to the whims of 90 other countries, most of whom dislike us in the first place so we can get poorer as a country while they all get richer and stronger.
No question, they got richer (and thus stronger) in part thanks to our support. But how did we get poorer? As far as I can see, we got richer, too.** Not least because they, being richer, can buy stuff from us, to our profit.
Granted, we may have become relatively less rich. But that is by no means the same as poorer in any absolute sense. It is entirely possible for everybody to get absolutely richer — and indeed, that is what has happened.
** Not only do we have historical records on this. I’ve got personal memories of all the stuff the everybody, even our poor, routinely has today that nobody had, or could have, when I was young.
If the (D)’s have any sense at all, they will give Abrams responsibility for GOTV at the national level, and then stay the hell out of her way.
As wj said, it’s about more than just GOTV.
(O’Rourke’s efforts in Texas since his run have not been negligible, either., though there’s further to go.)
It ought not to be impossible to craft policies which address the concerns of rural voters, either.
If the (D)’s have any sense at all, they will give Abrams responsibility for GOTV at the national level, and then stay the hell out of her way.
As wj said, it’s about more than just GOTV.
(O’Rourke’s efforts in Texas since his run have not been negligible, either., though there’s further to go.)
It ought not to be impossible to craft policies which address the concerns of rural voters, either.
Maybe this is what’s terrifying Marty ?
Lindsey Graham: If Trump concedes election, Republicans will ‘never’ elect another president
https://thehill.com/homenews/525063-lindsey-graham-if-trump-concedes-election-republicans-will-never-elect-another
Maybe this is what’s terrifying Marty ?
Lindsey Graham: If Trump concedes election, Republicans will ‘never’ elect another president
https://thehill.com/homenews/525063-lindsey-graham-if-trump-concedes-election-republicans-will-never-elect-another
It ought not to be impossible to craft policies which address the concerns of rural voters, either.
It varies. For example, Biden can drop Trump’s trade wars, which have severely damaged rural areas. But some of the markets lost (e.g. soybeans) have new suppliers. Those simply aren’t coming back. Those new suppliers couldn’t break in before. But now they’ve gotten in, and we can’t compete on price, now that they’re established.
It ought not to be impossible to craft policies which address the concerns of rural voters, either.
It varies. For example, Biden can drop Trump’s trade wars, which have severely damaged rural areas. But some of the markets lost (e.g. soybeans) have new suppliers. Those simply aren’t coming back. Those new suppliers couldn’t break in before. But now they’ve gotten in, and we can’t compete on price, now that they’re established.
From Nigel’s link
All this Republican can say is, if by “our party” he means the Trumpists, “Senator, from your lips to God’s ears!” Until we purge those scum, we shouldn’t elect a President. Nor any of them to Congress, or state office, or….
From Nigel’s link
All this Republican can say is, if by “our party” he means the Trumpists, “Senator, from your lips to God’s ears!” Until we purge those scum, we shouldn’t elect a President. Nor any of them to Congress, or state office, or….
I was charmed by the ABC news tweet showing fireworks over London ascribing them to celebration of Biden’s victory,
Someone must have told them of our Guy Fawkes celebrations at this time of the year, as they’ve now deleted it.
I was charmed by the ABC news tweet showing fireworks over London ascribing them to celebration of Biden’s victory,
Someone must have told them of our Guy Fawkes celebrations at this time of the year, as they’ve now deleted it.
It ought not to be impossible to craft policies which address the concerns of rural voters, either.
If by “rural voters” you mean “Republican rural voters”, policies aren’t really what they want. They want racism.
I live in a gerrymandered district* in Virginia. Charlottesville and the surrounding county votes blue, but much of the remaining part of the district is populated by “rural voters.” Driving south towards North Carolina, where a relative lives whom I visit from time to time, we pass Liberty University (Falwell Country). Property after property has confederate flags, Trump signs, etc. From the highway, about 1/2 way to my destination, one can see a giant Confederate flag flying proudly.
We had a wonderful D candidate this time: Cameron Webb, African-American physician, lawyer, compassionate family man, great speaker – just a lovely human being with some thoughts and experience about health care, etc. Do you really think that Democratic policies put forth by this immensely qualified person would help “rural voters”? Yes. Would they appeal to rural voters? Not the ones in my district. Not on your life. Instead, they voted for this guy. Nice “policies” (“voting to garnish wages from county residents who had outstanding ambulance bills and to hike ambulance fees, rather than raise taxes to cover the cost of EMS services”).
I’m not going to vote for anyone with Bob Good’s preferred “policies.” So, no “rural voter policies” for me, thanks.
*(Although we voted for a constitutional amendment to make redistricting more fair, I fear that it’s a scam to empower Republicans, but I digress. Our district will change, and I hope I’m wrong, and it ends up being for the better.)
It ought not to be impossible to craft policies which address the concerns of rural voters, either.
If by “rural voters” you mean “Republican rural voters”, policies aren’t really what they want. They want racism.
I live in a gerrymandered district* in Virginia. Charlottesville and the surrounding county votes blue, but much of the remaining part of the district is populated by “rural voters.” Driving south towards North Carolina, where a relative lives whom I visit from time to time, we pass Liberty University (Falwell Country). Property after property has confederate flags, Trump signs, etc. From the highway, about 1/2 way to my destination, one can see a giant Confederate flag flying proudly.
We had a wonderful D candidate this time: Cameron Webb, African-American physician, lawyer, compassionate family man, great speaker – just a lovely human being with some thoughts and experience about health care, etc. Do you really think that Democratic policies put forth by this immensely qualified person would help “rural voters”? Yes. Would they appeal to rural voters? Not the ones in my district. Not on your life. Instead, they voted for this guy. Nice “policies” (“voting to garnish wages from county residents who had outstanding ambulance bills and to hike ambulance fees, rather than raise taxes to cover the cost of EMS services”).
I’m not going to vote for anyone with Bob Good’s preferred “policies.” So, no “rural voter policies” for me, thanks.
*(Although we voted for a constitutional amendment to make redistricting more fair, I fear that it’s a scam to empower Republicans, but I digress. Our district will change, and I hope I’m wrong, and it ends up being for the better.)
Marty: We are a nation of winners and losers. The losers are to be insulted and disparaged, the winners disparaged and their accomplishments demanded. We are a nation that infers intent from short term success or failure.
Marty,
Don’t know about you or whoever it is you include in “we”, but my inclination is to disparage morons and assholes for being morons and assholes, not for being winners or losers.
He, Trump was a moron and an asshole before 2016 and He will be a moron and an asshole after 2020. Mitch McConnell is not a moron, just an asshole; I don’t so much “disparage” him as despise him. Whatever Lindsay Graham is, I add a dash of pity to my loathing of him. No pity for Susan Collins, just contempt. No losers I’m scorning here, except for He, Trump.
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is probably a winner you “disparage”. So maybe you don’t even include yourself in this “we” you’re talking about.
As for “infer(ing) intent from short-term success or failure”, I don’t know how you manage to get through life without making inferences in general and about intent in particular. To paraphrase Mark Twain, even a cat knows the difference between being kicked and being tripped over.
And I wish you’d give an example of somebody (liberal OR conservative) inferring intent from “short-term success or failure”.
–TP
Marty: We are a nation of winners and losers. The losers are to be insulted and disparaged, the winners disparaged and their accomplishments demanded. We are a nation that infers intent from short term success or failure.
Marty,
Don’t know about you or whoever it is you include in “we”, but my inclination is to disparage morons and assholes for being morons and assholes, not for being winners or losers.
He, Trump was a moron and an asshole before 2016 and He will be a moron and an asshole after 2020. Mitch McConnell is not a moron, just an asshole; I don’t so much “disparage” him as despise him. Whatever Lindsay Graham is, I add a dash of pity to my loathing of him. No pity for Susan Collins, just contempt. No losers I’m scorning here, except for He, Trump.
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is probably a winner you “disparage”. So maybe you don’t even include yourself in this “we” you’re talking about.
As for “infer(ing) intent from short-term success or failure”, I don’t know how you manage to get through life without making inferences in general and about intent in particular. To paraphrase Mark Twain, even a cat knows the difference between being kicked and being tripped over.
And I wish you’d give an example of somebody (liberal OR conservative) inferring intent from “short-term success or failure”.
–TP
The only way forward in the US as far as I can tell is for the diverse majority interested in the project of collective governance to implement policies by whatever available means that set up a framework for restorative practices (https://sherrymccreedy.weebly.com/resources.html) and continue to press for more and wider justice in our society. If those who oppose this want a seat at the table and a voice in the discussion, then they need to engage in the process of restoration. If not, then they can observe and they can disrupt and they can continue the same crap that has brought us to these straits. And if they push to fight, well, we can’t stop them.
And, as now, I expect that those who have the comfort of privilege will continue to exempt themselves from any such efforts for reconciliation and try to use the partisan conflict for their own gain.
The only way forward in the US as far as I can tell is for the diverse majority interested in the project of collective governance to implement policies by whatever available means that set up a framework for restorative practices (https://sherrymccreedy.weebly.com/resources.html) and continue to press for more and wider justice in our society. If those who oppose this want a seat at the table and a voice in the discussion, then they need to engage in the process of restoration. If not, then they can observe and they can disrupt and they can continue the same crap that has brought us to these straits. And if they push to fight, well, we can’t stop them.
And, as now, I expect that those who have the comfort of privilege will continue to exempt themselves from any such efforts for reconciliation and try to use the partisan conflict for their own gain.
One thing this underlines for me is that the Dems labor under a similar challenge that African Americans and women have for, well, forever, which is that in terms of outcomes, anything they do can’t just be as good, but has to be x% better than what Republicans do. Not really sure what the exact figure is for the meme, but it’s the same sort of feeling. I suppose, in keeping with the title, the good thing is that the bar for exceeding Republican competency is at an all time low…
One thing this underlines for me is that the Dems labor under a similar challenge that African Americans and women have for, well, forever, which is that in terms of outcomes, anything they do can’t just be as good, but has to be x% better than what Republicans do. Not really sure what the exact figure is for the meme, but it’s the same sort of feeling. I suppose, in keeping with the title, the good thing is that the bar for exceeding Republican competency is at an all time low…
as now, I expect that those who have the comfort of privilege will continue to exempt themselves from any such efforts for reconciliation and try to use the partisan conflict for their own gain.
I think it’s fair to say that I am among those who, at least to some extent, “have the comfort of privilege.” And yet, I don’t see myself exempting myself, or even attempting to exempt myself, from any efforts towards reconciliation. So I really think that your statement should be amended to say “some of those”.
No argument that there will be too many of them who do. But the fact that many do not is a nontrivial factor in our prospect for eventual success.
as now, I expect that those who have the comfort of privilege will continue to exempt themselves from any such efforts for reconciliation and try to use the partisan conflict for their own gain.
I think it’s fair to say that I am among those who, at least to some extent, “have the comfort of privilege.” And yet, I don’t see myself exempting myself, or even attempting to exempt myself, from any efforts towards reconciliation. So I really think that your statement should be amended to say “some of those”.
No argument that there will be too many of them who do. But the fact that many do not is a nontrivial factor in our prospect for eventual success.
wj – appreciate that, but while we both undoubtedly have privilege, we do not have so much of it that we can exempt ourselves from anything on the scale of what I’m talking about. No luxury survival silos for ecological collapse or moving to our compound in Denmark if war erupts.
We are imbricated in our communities.
wj – appreciate that, but while we both undoubtedly have privilege, we do not have so much of it that we can exempt ourselves from anything on the scale of what I’m talking about. No luxury survival silos for ecological collapse or moving to our compound in Denmark if war erupts.
We are imbricated in our communities.
It ought not to be impossible to craft policies which address the concerns of rural voters, either.
I see this all the time. It is a common meme. But the real question is this: Just what is it that they want?
They want safety.
They want prosperity.
They want community.
Well, golly gee. That’s what just about anybody wants. So what to do? What have Dems done? Just for starters (pretty basic stuff):
AAA
REA
Medicare
Social Security
What have Republicans done for them? NOT ONE FUCKING THING.
The rurals, specifically farmers, are one of the most coddled political constituencies in our nation. They get a good deal of the benefits of “socialism” as commonly (if mistakenly) understood. But some public school teacher wants the same fucking thing they want, well that’s pure communism. We can’t have that I guess.
But what is “hollowing out” our rural areas? Well, it’s not some urban black single mother trying to get by on our criminally deficient social safety net, that’s for sure. It’s not an illegal picking our fruit and vegetables for pennies while paying taxes into social security for benefits they will never see.
Perhaps one should look at the corporatization of the agricultural sector? The WalMartization of our retail sector? The grinding capitalist propensity to commodify just every fucking thing so it can be priced and traded. What is “community” worth?
There was a time when the rurals rose up against the railroads and big money. They were saved by New Deal liberals. Fat and happy, they reverted to type. More’s the pity for that.
Marty speaks of “elites”. He has no fucking clue. You don’t find “elites” in hollywood or Harvard Square. You find them in corporate suites and Wall Street.
Those fuckers want it all, and the Martys of the world glady want to help them take it. And you know the funny thing? They have to use government policy to do this. But Democrats are the “redistributionists”.
Fuck that.
/rant
It ought not to be impossible to craft policies which address the concerns of rural voters, either.
I see this all the time. It is a common meme. But the real question is this: Just what is it that they want?
They want safety.
They want prosperity.
They want community.
Well, golly gee. That’s what just about anybody wants. So what to do? What have Dems done? Just for starters (pretty basic stuff):
AAA
REA
Medicare
Social Security
What have Republicans done for them? NOT ONE FUCKING THING.
The rurals, specifically farmers, are one of the most coddled political constituencies in our nation. They get a good deal of the benefits of “socialism” as commonly (if mistakenly) understood. But some public school teacher wants the same fucking thing they want, well that’s pure communism. We can’t have that I guess.
But what is “hollowing out” our rural areas? Well, it’s not some urban black single mother trying to get by on our criminally deficient social safety net, that’s for sure. It’s not an illegal picking our fruit and vegetables for pennies while paying taxes into social security for benefits they will never see.
Perhaps one should look at the corporatization of the agricultural sector? The WalMartization of our retail sector? The grinding capitalist propensity to commodify just every fucking thing so it can be priced and traded. What is “community” worth?
There was a time when the rurals rose up against the railroads and big money. They were saved by New Deal liberals. Fat and happy, they reverted to type. More’s the pity for that.
Marty speaks of “elites”. He has no fucking clue. You don’t find “elites” in hollywood or Harvard Square. You find them in corporate suites and Wall Street.
Those fuckers want it all, and the Martys of the world glady want to help them take it. And you know the funny thing? They have to use government policy to do this. But Democrats are the “redistributionists”.
Fuck that.
/rant
nous – fair enough. But then “extreme privilege.”** There are, as you say, rather a lot of folks with some notable level of privilege, but who don’t have the option of just up and moving away from the results of any disaster their actions (or inactions) produces. And don’t act like they do.
** And a solid argument it is for substantially higher top level imcome, and especially top level inheritance, taxes.
nous – fair enough. But then “extreme privilege.”** There are, as you say, rather a lot of folks with some notable level of privilege, but who don’t have the option of just up and moving away from the results of any disaster their actions (or inactions) produces. And don’t act like they do.
** And a solid argument it is for substantially higher top level imcome, and especially top level inheritance, taxes.
Marty is an elite. Worse, he’s a coastal elite.
So, factor that in.
Not trying to stick it to Marty, really. Just saying. By any measure you want to pick from, Marty is one of the elite.
Marty is an elite. Worse, he’s a coastal elite.
So, factor that in.
Not trying to stick it to Marty, really. Just saying. By any measure you want to pick from, Marty is one of the elite.
nous,
I could not get your link to work. Could you check that?
I agree wholeheartedly with what you have written above. Those who have the stuff will fight to keep it, and those who don’t have the stuff will fight to get their rightful share.
Some things never change.
nous,
I could not get your link to work. Could you check that?
I agree wholeheartedly with what you have written above. Those who have the stuff will fight to keep it, and those who don’t have the stuff will fight to get their rightful share.
Some things never change.
I think you find elites in various places. What matters is what policies they support.
https://cepr.net/changes-that-would-make-a-difference-in-the-biden-administration/
I think you find elites in various places. What matters is what policies they support.
https://cepr.net/changes-that-would-make-a-difference-in-the-biden-administration/
bobbyp – the link works, but for some reason typepad decided that the closing parenthesis is part of the url. Delete that in the browser and you should be good to go.
bobbyp – the link works, but for some reason typepad decided that the closing parenthesis is part of the url. Delete that in the browser and you should be good to go.
And another thing—
https://inthesetimes.com/article/joe-biden-yemen-war-saudi-arabia-presidential-election-foreign-policy
And another thing—
https://inthesetimes.com/article/joe-biden-yemen-war-saudi-arabia-presidential-election-foreign-policy
Donald,
Dean Baker (one of my go to reads) is always pounding the same drum, but like one’s favorite song, it is always worth listening to. From your cite, Dean writes:
“the bad guys have deliberately structured the market in ways that redistribute income upward.”
It is no more “natural” for a small group to corner all the wealth in a market economy (marx notwithstanding) than it was for feudal lords to grab everything that wasn’t nailed down.
The current distribution of wealth in this country is, simply put, a deliberately constructed crime.
Donald,
Dean Baker (one of my go to reads) is always pounding the same drum, but like one’s favorite song, it is always worth listening to. From your cite, Dean writes:
“the bad guys have deliberately structured the market in ways that redistribute income upward.”
It is no more “natural” for a small group to corner all the wealth in a market economy (marx notwithstanding) than it was for feudal lords to grab everything that wasn’t nailed down.
The current distribution of wealth in this country is, simply put, a deliberately constructed crime.
…, but who don’t have the option of just up and moving away from the results of any disaster their actions (or inactions) produces.
Certainly a lot of Californians moving to Texas and other states…
…, but who don’t have the option of just up and moving away from the results of any disaster their actions (or inactions) produces.
Certainly a lot of Californians moving to Texas and other states…
Certainly a lot of Californians moving to Texas and other states…
In the course of which, Texas, specifically Texas’ politics, is being changed rather notably in the direction of California. Which doesn’t seem like the course one would expect, if those who moved saw conditions in California as a disaster.
Certainly a lot of Californians moving to Texas and other states…
In the course of which, Texas, specifically Texas’ politics, is being changed rather notably in the direction of California. Which doesn’t seem like the course one would expect, if those who moved saw conditions in California as a disaster.
This popped up a few times on my FB (As I’ve explained before, where I’m from has me FB friends with quite a few Trump voters and I don’t have discussion there, so I can’t be bothered the way I am here) so it may be of interest, in a forensic sort of way, to the Marxists here. Here’s the link, but I also cut and pasted the article so you don’t have to go clicking.
https://www.theintelligencer.net/opinion/editorials/2020/10/why-dislike-trump/
For anyone not supporting Trump:
Do you dislike that he made cruelty to animals a felony? Do you dislike that he gave billions to stop the opioid crisis? He destroyed ISIS, killed how many terrorists without going to war and oh, wait, everyone said we’d be in World War III by now with North Korea. Do you dislike him because we are the largest producer of oil? Do you dislike him because he wanted to build a wall to keep criminals and drugs from coming in?
Do you dislike him because he just slashed the price for medications, in some cases 50%, which is driving Big Pharma nuts? Do you dislike that he signed a law ending the gag-order on pharmacists that prevented them from sharing money-saving options on prescriptions? Do you dislike that he signed the Save Our Seas Act, which funds $10 million per year to clean tons of plastic and garbage from the oceans?
Do you dislike that he signed a bill for airports to provide breast-feeding stations for nursing moms? Do you dislike that he signed the biggest wilderness protection and conservation bill in a decade, designating 375,000 acres as protected land? Do you dislike that he loves America and puts Americans first? Do dislike that he made a gay man the ambassador to Germany and then asked him to clean up national security and unclassified as much of it as possible for transparency?
Do you dislike that he’s kept almost every campaign promise (with ZERO support from Congress, who work against him daily) plus 100 more promises because Washington was much more broken than he thought? Do you dislike that he works for free, donating his salary to different charities? Do you dislike that he’s done more for the black community than every other president? Do you dislike that he listened to Senator Scott and passed Invest In Opportunity Zones to help minorities? Do you dislike that he passed prison reform, which gives people a second chance and has made quite a huge difference for the black communities? Do you dislike that he passed VA reforms to benefit the very people who served our country and defend our freedom? Do you dislike that he’s winning and signing new trade deals that benefit Americans, instead of costing us more? Do you dislike that he loves his flag and his country? Do you dislike that he calls out and has shown all of us that they ARE Fake News, and they twist the truth to control and mislead the people and he is trying to protect us from this? Do you dislike that he’s ending wars? Do you dislike that he has made a commitment to end child-trafficking and crimes against humanity and has made 1000’s of arrests already? Do you dislike he’s brought home over 40 Americans held captive, the last one from Iran? Do you dislike that he’s proven he was right about the Deep State and he was spied on? Do you dislike that he was a Billionaire before he ran for President and now is worth at least 1/3 less… because he loves America THAT MUCH? Do you dislike that he’s making the world pay their fair share for the UN for protection? Do you dislike that he respects cops, veterans, ICE & First Responders? Do you dislike that he does not sell out America to other countries, like the leaders prior to him have done? Could it be possible that the ones who SELL OUT America to line their pockets OWN THE MEDIA AND HOLLYWOOD and hate him so much for trying to expose them and hate him for putting the PEOPLE first that they manipulate our thinking and control the information we get to steer US to hate him? These people benefit when you hate the man trying to stop them… so they won’t have to give up the wealth they have gotten and continue to get thru mass taxation and control. Wouldn’t you at least want to RESEARCH this possibility? Could 65,000 Americans already know the TRUTH… that he has done more for blacks in the last 20 years than our last 5 Presidents put together and is actually NOT a racist but you believe he is because it has been drilled into your head and yet you’ve never researched his accomplishments? You can start by watching those daily briefings he did during the lockdown (all on line) and then watching the coverage on the Main Stream Media and how they twisted it. Do you actually believe the President encouraged America to inject bleach? Did you research the effects of UV LIGHT which is used to disinfect SCHOOL BUSES and medical equipment and is also being used as a treatment for bacteria and respiratory infections by injecting it into humans (search Healight but don’t use Google… they are part of the Deep State and manipulate what we see! And they sell our info, which is why you see merchandise pop up the day after you searched for something! Use Duckduckgo)!!! They want you to believe he is stupid because if you figure out that he isn’t, they will lose billions of dollars and all their control. I know… it is hard to let go of what you believed to be true for most of your life. You are not alone. But your BLIND hatred of this man who is literally trying to save us from the far Left, radical Socialists is going to be detrimental to our country if you continue to support their hatred. They are teaching hatred and separation… even in families! You are not allowed to agree with “part” of their agenda and think for yourself; you must repeat their FULL belief system or name-calling and insults ensue… this is the definition of a cult! All or nothing! They despise LAW AND ORDER. Just look around you. He supports it, so we are safe and can live in a civilized society. He stands for unity and America first.
You will be amazed at how much more peace comes into your life when you turn off the FAKE NEWS and turn on the true America, where we focus on what unites us, not what divides us. The media hated him from day one. Impeachment was on the table before he was elected. They said Impeach the mother Fuc#^*r….but his rhetoric is bad? He’s never given a chance yet he’s done more in 4 years than any president with zero help from the media or democrats. Results don’t lie onto the radical left.
How dare he care so much about America. Love it or leave it.
Do your research… I have. All of these are verifiable things Trump has done! And verifiable that the media twists his words!
I just want people to be informed and to make their own opinions not just what we are told mostly by MSM. But we will not burn loot and murder like the socialist leftist did to ruin many cities. Conservatives will regroup and come up with policies and a candidate to stem socialism and the erosion of our liberties. I do wish the best of luck but they must remember about 1/2 of America did not vote for socialism.
The most hilarious thing is that they post it without a reference and _always_ include the section about “Do your research… I have.” I suppose cutting and pasting could be defined as ‘doing the research’, but…
This popped up a few times on my FB (As I’ve explained before, where I’m from has me FB friends with quite a few Trump voters and I don’t have discussion there, so I can’t be bothered the way I am here) so it may be of interest, in a forensic sort of way, to the Marxists here. Here’s the link, but I also cut and pasted the article so you don’t have to go clicking.
https://www.theintelligencer.net/opinion/editorials/2020/10/why-dislike-trump/
For anyone not supporting Trump:
Do you dislike that he made cruelty to animals a felony? Do you dislike that he gave billions to stop the opioid crisis? He destroyed ISIS, killed how many terrorists without going to war and oh, wait, everyone said we’d be in World War III by now with North Korea. Do you dislike him because we are the largest producer of oil? Do you dislike him because he wanted to build a wall to keep criminals and drugs from coming in?
Do you dislike him because he just slashed the price for medications, in some cases 50%, which is driving Big Pharma nuts? Do you dislike that he signed a law ending the gag-order on pharmacists that prevented them from sharing money-saving options on prescriptions? Do you dislike that he signed the Save Our Seas Act, which funds $10 million per year to clean tons of plastic and garbage from the oceans?
Do you dislike that he signed a bill for airports to provide breast-feeding stations for nursing moms? Do you dislike that he signed the biggest wilderness protection and conservation bill in a decade, designating 375,000 acres as protected land? Do you dislike that he loves America and puts Americans first? Do dislike that he made a gay man the ambassador to Germany and then asked him to clean up national security and unclassified as much of it as possible for transparency?
Do you dislike that he’s kept almost every campaign promise (with ZERO support from Congress, who work against him daily) plus 100 more promises because Washington was much more broken than he thought? Do you dislike that he works for free, donating his salary to different charities? Do you dislike that he’s done more for the black community than every other president? Do you dislike that he listened to Senator Scott and passed Invest In Opportunity Zones to help minorities? Do you dislike that he passed prison reform, which gives people a second chance and has made quite a huge difference for the black communities? Do you dislike that he passed VA reforms to benefit the very people who served our country and defend our freedom? Do you dislike that he’s winning and signing new trade deals that benefit Americans, instead of costing us more? Do you dislike that he loves his flag and his country? Do you dislike that he calls out and has shown all of us that they ARE Fake News, and they twist the truth to control and mislead the people and he is trying to protect us from this? Do you dislike that he’s ending wars? Do you dislike that he has made a commitment to end child-trafficking and crimes against humanity and has made 1000’s of arrests already? Do you dislike he’s brought home over 40 Americans held captive, the last one from Iran? Do you dislike that he’s proven he was right about the Deep State and he was spied on? Do you dislike that he was a Billionaire before he ran for President and now is worth at least 1/3 less… because he loves America THAT MUCH? Do you dislike that he’s making the world pay their fair share for the UN for protection? Do you dislike that he respects cops, veterans, ICE & First Responders? Do you dislike that he does not sell out America to other countries, like the leaders prior to him have done? Could it be possible that the ones who SELL OUT America to line their pockets OWN THE MEDIA AND HOLLYWOOD and hate him so much for trying to expose them and hate him for putting the PEOPLE first that they manipulate our thinking and control the information we get to steer US to hate him? These people benefit when you hate the man trying to stop them… so they won’t have to give up the wealth they have gotten and continue to get thru mass taxation and control. Wouldn’t you at least want to RESEARCH this possibility? Could 65,000 Americans already know the TRUTH… that he has done more for blacks in the last 20 years than our last 5 Presidents put together and is actually NOT a racist but you believe he is because it has been drilled into your head and yet you’ve never researched his accomplishments? You can start by watching those daily briefings he did during the lockdown (all on line) and then watching the coverage on the Main Stream Media and how they twisted it. Do you actually believe the President encouraged America to inject bleach? Did you research the effects of UV LIGHT which is used to disinfect SCHOOL BUSES and medical equipment and is also being used as a treatment for bacteria and respiratory infections by injecting it into humans (search Healight but don’t use Google… they are part of the Deep State and manipulate what we see! And they sell our info, which is why you see merchandise pop up the day after you searched for something! Use Duckduckgo)!!! They want you to believe he is stupid because if you figure out that he isn’t, they will lose billions of dollars and all their control. I know… it is hard to let go of what you believed to be true for most of your life. You are not alone. But your BLIND hatred of this man who is literally trying to save us from the far Left, radical Socialists is going to be detrimental to our country if you continue to support their hatred. They are teaching hatred and separation… even in families! You are not allowed to agree with “part” of their agenda and think for yourself; you must repeat their FULL belief system or name-calling and insults ensue… this is the definition of a cult! All or nothing! They despise LAW AND ORDER. Just look around you. He supports it, so we are safe and can live in a civilized society. He stands for unity and America first.
You will be amazed at how much more peace comes into your life when you turn off the FAKE NEWS and turn on the true America, where we focus on what unites us, not what divides us. The media hated him from day one. Impeachment was on the table before he was elected. They said Impeach the mother Fuc#^*r….but his rhetoric is bad? He’s never given a chance yet he’s done more in 4 years than any president with zero help from the media or democrats. Results don’t lie onto the radical left.
How dare he care so much about America. Love it or leave it.
Do your research… I have. All of these are verifiable things Trump has done! And verifiable that the media twists his words!
I just want people to be informed and to make their own opinions not just what we are told mostly by MSM. But we will not burn loot and murder like the socialist leftist did to ruin many cities. Conservatives will regroup and come up with policies and a candidate to stem socialism and the erosion of our liberties. I do wish the best of luck but they must remember about 1/2 of America did not vote for socialism.
The most hilarious thing is that they post it without a reference and _always_ include the section about “Do your research… I have.” I suppose cutting and pasting could be defined as ‘doing the research’, but…
AOC has said some interesting and for some unpopular things about the hopeless lack of organisation in parts od the Democrats campaign.
This is a very interesting thread which suggests that she is not wrong:
https://twitter.com/rgcooke/status/1325598436888961024
AOC has said some interesting and for some unpopular things about the hopeless lack of organisation in parts od the Democrats campaign.
This is a very interesting thread which suggests that she is not wrong:
https://twitter.com/rgcooke/status/1325598436888961024
Is this funny, or chilling, or just WTAF ?
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/video-televangelist-kenneth-copeland-laugh-biden-victory.html
Is this funny, or chilling, or just WTAF ?
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/video-televangelist-kenneth-copeland-laugh-biden-victory.html
I do wish the best of luck but they must remember about 1/2 of America did not vote for socialism.
so more than half did?
wow.
socialism [whatever that means] it is, then!
I do wish the best of luck but they must remember about 1/2 of America did not vote for socialism.
so more than half did?
wow.
socialism [whatever that means] it is, then!
RIP Norm Crosby.
His passing is a great apostrophe for the world.
I wish I could give the urology at his funeral service.
RIP Norm Crosby.
His passing is a great apostrophe for the world.
I wish I could give the urology at his funeral service.
that’s a lot of verifiable things. some are even verifiable.
He’s never given a chance
The siren call of Trump and his supporters. It’s always somebody else’s fault.
that’s a lot of verifiable things. some are even verifiable.
He’s never given a chance
The siren call of Trump and his supporters. It’s always somebody else’s fault.
Dow futures up 1750 points this morning on Pfizer’s Covid-19 vaccine news and Biden’s victory.
Meanwhile, shitheads abound:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/11/8/1994205/-I-have-Republican-friends-neighbors-co-workers-etc-Here-is-what-they-told-me-after-Biden-won
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-appointee-wont-give-biden-materials-required-to-begin-full-transition-process
Do the newcomers in Texas from blue states get rammed by right wing Trump terrorists in ISIS pickup trucks on the highways for their trouble?
Do they get a free AR-15 and ammo at the border (not that one) to protect themselves?
Dow futures up 1750 points this morning on Pfizer’s Covid-19 vaccine news and Biden’s victory.
Meanwhile, shitheads abound:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/11/8/1994205/-I-have-Republican-friends-neighbors-co-workers-etc-Here-is-what-they-told-me-after-Biden-won
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-appointee-wont-give-biden-materials-required-to-begin-full-transition-process
Do the newcomers in Texas from blue states get rammed by right wing Trump terrorists in ISIS pickup trucks on the highways for their trouble?
Do they get a free AR-15 and ammo at the border (not that one) to protect themselves?
lj,
This not very interested ‘marxist’ took a (very brief) look at the link. You didn’t include the best part:
Did you research the effects of UV light, which is used to disinfect school buses and medical equipment and is also being used as a treatment for bacteria and respiratory infections by injecting it into humans (search Healight, but don’t use Google –use Duckduckgo). They want you to believe he is stupid, because if you figure out he isn’t, they will lose billions of dollars and all their control. I know … it is hard to let go of what you believed to be true for most of your life. You are not alone. But your blind hatred of this man who is literally trying to save us from the far left, radical socialists is going to be detrimental to our country if you continue to support their hatred.
How such whackadoodlism maintains a prominent place in our politics is a mystery.
lj,
This not very interested ‘marxist’ took a (very brief) look at the link. You didn’t include the best part:
Did you research the effects of UV light, which is used to disinfect school buses and medical equipment and is also being used as a treatment for bacteria and respiratory infections by injecting it into humans (search Healight, but don’t use Google –use Duckduckgo). They want you to believe he is stupid, because if you figure out he isn’t, they will lose billions of dollars and all their control. I know … it is hard to let go of what you believed to be true for most of your life. You are not alone. But your blind hatred of this man who is literally trying to save us from the far left, radical socialists is going to be detrimental to our country if you continue to support their hatred.
How such whackadoodlism maintains a prominent place in our politics is a mystery.
That TPM story is why I was being glad, earlier, about Trump firing competent people recently. It gives Biden’s people sources for briefings on what is happening in their (ex-)agency currently. Not as good as a proper transition process. But could be a big step up over nothing.
That TPM story is why I was being glad, earlier, about Trump firing competent people recently. It gives Biden’s people sources for briefings on what is happening in their (ex-)agency currently. Not as good as a proper transition process. But could be a big step up over nothing.
don’t know how I left out that part. I can see why we are to blame cause we don’t take them seriously…
don’t know how I left out that part. I can see why we are to blame cause we don’t take them seriously…
But I thought we weren’t supposed to take them literally….
That is, they don’t really believe the actual words they are saying either. (Because if we thought they did, it would be very hard NOT to think they are seriously stupid.)
But I thought we weren’t supposed to take them literally….
That is, they don’t really believe the actual words they are saying either. (Because if we thought they did, it would be very hard NOT to think they are seriously stupid.)
how about we don’t take them at all?
they can join us in reality after they’ve had their tantrums.
how about we don’t take them at all?
they can join us in reality after they’ve had their tantrums.
Dedicated as I am to the destruction of private property in all its odious forms and to the promotion of pure communism, I must say this editorial in the Times was interesting and raised some good points:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/opinion/how-to-protect-america-from-the-next-donald-trump.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage
Dedicated as I am to the destruction of private property in all its odious forms and to the promotion of pure communism, I must say this editorial in the Times was interesting and raised some good points:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/opinion/how-to-protect-america-from-the-next-donald-trump.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage
FWIW, Healight.
One thing I look forward to in a post-Trump world is not having to chase every lunatic bugaboo down the rabbit hole in the interest of “being fair”.
Shoving a UV-emitting catheter down your throat is not likely to cure you of COVID-19.
Some of the stuff in the screed is legit. Prison reform, all good.
Some is legit, but not specifically an accomplishment of Trump’s.
And some of it is just BS.
I don’t want a POTUS who makes fun of crippled people, thinks violent white supremacists and Nazis include some “very fine people”, and generally has no understanding of or regard for the responsibilities of his office or the basic functioning of government.
Good bye, DJT.
FWIW, Healight.
One thing I look forward to in a post-Trump world is not having to chase every lunatic bugaboo down the rabbit hole in the interest of “being fair”.
Shoving a UV-emitting catheter down your throat is not likely to cure you of COVID-19.
Some of the stuff in the screed is legit. Prison reform, all good.
Some is legit, but not specifically an accomplishment of Trump’s.
And some of it is just BS.
I don’t want a POTUS who makes fun of crippled people, thinks violent white supremacists and Nazis include some “very fine people”, and generally has no understanding of or regard for the responsibilities of his office or the basic functioning of government.
Good bye, DJT.
Another good essay here.
Another good essay here.
Just look at how we were treated when we asked our closest friends to pay their fair share into NATO. Suddenly we were risky as an ally and no one should trust us.
When Obama politely asked the other NATO countries in 2014 to increase their defence spending, they agreed, and did increase their spending. Nor did they later change their minds in the face of Trump’s offensive bluster on the subject.
When Trump in 2016-17 refused to affirm his commitment to article 5 of the NATO treaty, he made the USA an unreliable ally.
The climate accords required levels of sacrifice from us demanded of literally no one else in the world.
The US pledged in the Paris accords to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 26% by 2025 compared with 2005 (which would be about a 9% reduction from 1990). The EU pledged to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 40% by 2030 compared with 1990.
This in the context that US per capita emissions are currently about double EU per capita emissions.
What sacrifice?
Just look at how we were treated when we asked our closest friends to pay their fair share into NATO. Suddenly we were risky as an ally and no one should trust us.
When Obama politely asked the other NATO countries in 2014 to increase their defence spending, they agreed, and did increase their spending. Nor did they later change their minds in the face of Trump’s offensive bluster on the subject.
When Trump in 2016-17 refused to affirm his commitment to article 5 of the NATO treaty, he made the USA an unreliable ally.
The climate accords required levels of sacrifice from us demanded of literally no one else in the world.
The US pledged in the Paris accords to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 26% by 2025 compared with 2005 (which would be about a 9% reduction from 1990). The EU pledged to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 40% by 2030 compared with 1990.
This in the context that US per capita emissions are currently about double EU per capita emissions.
What sacrifice?
The damage, the pointless damage, continues
https://mobile.twitter.com/Timodc/status/1325647191701037056?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1325647191701037056%7Ctwgr%5Eshare_3&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fopinions%2F2020%2F11%2F09%2Fhow-trump-can-still-try-burn-place-down-way-out%2F
The damage, the pointless damage, continues
https://mobile.twitter.com/Timodc/status/1325647191701037056?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1325647191701037056%7Ctwgr%5Eshare_3&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fopinions%2F2020%2F11%2F09%2Fhow-trump-can-still-try-burn-place-down-way-out%2F
I had missed this detail. Unless new funding is approved, the Federal government is due to shut down December 10th. That’s a funding bill passed by Congress and signed by President Trump.
If he’s still sulking (likely), I could see Trump refusing to sign it. In particular, not doing a formal veto, but just waiting until the time runs out (“pocket veto”). Which, of course, delays when Congress can vote to override — assuming Republicans could be persuaded to.
I had missed this detail. Unless new funding is approved, the Federal government is due to shut down December 10th. That’s a funding bill passed by Congress and signed by President Trump.
If he’s still sulking (likely), I could see Trump refusing to sign it. In particular, not doing a formal veto, but just waiting until the time runs out (“pocket veto”). Which, of course, delays when Congress can vote to override — assuming Republicans could be persuaded to.
What America needs now is a flood of info and advice for those who’ve been supporting efforts at mass harm and mass death, on how to start being better people, responsible adults capable of leaving liars and con artists behind. Something in the spirit of those wonderful tips on rape reduction some while back, aimed at those who’ve helped join in trashing the country and their own souls but who may now wish to start doing better.
https://i.redd.it/bvssjlpweke11.jpg
What America needs now is a flood of info and advice for those who’ve been supporting efforts at mass harm and mass death, on how to start being better people, responsible adults capable of leaving liars and con artists behind. Something in the spirit of those wonderful tips on rape reduction some while back, aimed at those who’ve helped join in trashing the country and their own souls but who may now wish to start doing better.
https://i.redd.it/bvssjlpweke11.jpg
bobbyp: good pieces, thanks.
bobbyp: good pieces, thanks.
I think that a “pocket veto” is only effective if Congress goes into recess.
Otherwise, the prez has about a week to sign or veto, and otherwise the bill becomes law without his signature.
NOBODY EXPLAIN THIS TO TRUMP PLZ.
I think that a “pocket veto” is only effective if Congress goes into recess.
Otherwise, the prez has about a week to sign or veto, and otherwise the bill becomes law without his signature.
NOBODY EXPLAIN THIS TO TRUMP PLZ.
Just days after Biden wins the election, a 90%-effective COVID-19 vaccine is announced. Commence conspiracy-theorizing!
Just days after Biden wins the election, a 90%-effective COVID-19 vaccine is announced. Commence conspiracy-theorizing!
Biden Cures COVID!
Biden Cures COVID!
Too late for Ben Carson, though.
Too late for Ben Carson, though.
The idea that Pfizer, which developed the vaccine with its own resources, and has pointedly hung on to the IP rights for the vaccine, might be conspiring with the socialists is… a curious one.
The idea that Pfizer, which developed the vaccine with its own resources, and has pointedly hung on to the IP rights for the vaccine, might be conspiring with the socialists is… a curious one.
just shows you how deep the conspiracy runs
just shows you how deep the conspiracy runs
True.
Still more suspiciously, Pfizer’s German partner, which developed the technology, was set up by two Moslem sons of Turkish immigrants.
True.
Still more suspiciously, Pfizer’s German partner, which developed the technology, was set up by two Moslem sons of Turkish immigrants.
The idea that Pfizer, which developed the vaccine with its own resources, and has pointedly hung on to the IP rights for the vaccine, might be conspiring with the socialists is… a curious one.
Well, they stayed out of Trump’s “Warp Speed” program. So obviously they are socialists!
The idea that Pfizer, which developed the vaccine with its own resources, and has pointedly hung on to the IP rights for the vaccine, might be conspiring with the socialists is… a curious one.
Well, they stayed out of Trump’s “Warp Speed” program. So obviously they are socialists!
Commence conspiracy-theorizing!
The process for creating the vaccine is described in documents found ON HUNTER BIDEN’S LAPTOP!!11!!!!1
Commence conspiracy-theorizing!
The process for creating the vaccine is described in documents found ON HUNTER BIDEN’S LAPTOP!!11!!!!1
Does Ben get the same experimental treatments that Trump did?
Does Ben get the same experimental treatments that Trump did?
HUNTER BIDEN’S LAPTOP!
if a real investigation had been done earlier, we could have saved so many lives. a lot of people are saying this. so, you never know.
HUNTER BIDEN’S LAPTOP!
if a real investigation had been done earlier, we could have saved so many lives. a lot of people are saying this. so, you never know.
And the people who are saying this always start their comments with “Sir….”
And the people who are saying this always start their comments with “Sir….”
“Just days after Biden wins the election, a 90%-effective COVID-19 vaccine is announced.”
So, just like the AMAZING vanishing of Ebola after the 2012 election?
Well, except for the 200,000+ dead ‘crisis actors’, that is.
“Just days after Biden wins the election, a 90%-effective COVID-19 vaccine is announced.”
So, just like the AMAZING vanishing of Ebola after the 2012 election?
Well, except for the 200,000+ dead ‘crisis actors’, that is.
Either a number of old men are having their last pitiful hurrah, or there is a genuine and dtermined effort ongoing to usurp the election.
It’s currently rather hard to distinguish between the two things.
Either a number of old men are having their last pitiful hurrah, or there is a genuine and dtermined effort ongoing to usurp the election.
It’s currently rather hard to distinguish between the two things.
It’s been mentioned about AOC’s interview in the NYTimes, which I think should provoke a lot of discussion.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/07/us/politics/aoc-biden-progressives.html
A counter balance to that is this LGM post for Dan Nexon
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/11/neither-progressives-nor-moderates-deserve-blame-for-the-outcome-of-the-2020-election
My take, slightly high and inside as it were.
I agree with Nexon’s analysis, but in order to move the needle, the (correct, I think) lesson that AOC has taken is that you don’t let up. The forces of inertia are just too overwhelming too overcome. A brief dive into twitter has tons of people crying ‘oh, it’s too soon’ and ‘we need time to heal!’ I believe that AOC knows that this is just asking for trouble. If the past 4 years have taught us anything (and what the current transition limbo is reinforcing), it is that the forces that gave rise to Trump haven’t just magically disappeared because of the election.
It’s been mentioned about AOC’s interview in the NYTimes, which I think should provoke a lot of discussion.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/07/us/politics/aoc-biden-progressives.html
A counter balance to that is this LGM post for Dan Nexon
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/11/neither-progressives-nor-moderates-deserve-blame-for-the-outcome-of-the-2020-election
My take, slightly high and inside as it were.
I agree with Nexon’s analysis, but in order to move the needle, the (correct, I think) lesson that AOC has taken is that you don’t let up. The forces of inertia are just too overwhelming too overcome. A brief dive into twitter has tons of people crying ‘oh, it’s too soon’ and ‘we need time to heal!’ I believe that AOC knows that this is just asking for trouble. If the past 4 years have taught us anything (and what the current transition limbo is reinforcing), it is that the forces that gave rise to Trump haven’t just magically disappeared because of the election.
Go with pitiful last hurrah. For them, at least some of them, it probably is thought to be a ganuine and determined effort. But that’s just because they have mostly lost their connection to the real world. (Well, except for the ones who know its nonsense, but still feel it’s worth their time to kowtow to Trump even now.)
Go with pitiful last hurrah. For them, at least some of them, it probably is thought to be a ganuine and determined effort. But that’s just because they have mostly lost their connection to the real world. (Well, except for the ones who know its nonsense, but still feel it’s worth their time to kowtow to Trump even now.)
NOBODY EXPLAIN THIS TO TRUMP PLZ.
LOL!!!!!! It wouldn’t make any difference if they did.
lj: If the past 4 years have taught us anything… Well, you are not going back far enough. This goes back to the French Revolution. The players change, but the forces of reaction are relentless….just like in the zombie horror movies. The Obama years alone should have brought that home in the most apparent manner. Anybody in the center or center-left should know this….but alas, many seem to pretend this evil can be warded off by magic incantations, giving them a few bite out of our ass, or a good rousing speech…Um, no.
NOBODY EXPLAIN THIS TO TRUMP PLZ.
LOL!!!!!! It wouldn’t make any difference if they did.
lj: If the past 4 years have taught us anything… Well, you are not going back far enough. This goes back to the French Revolution. The players change, but the forces of reaction are relentless….just like in the zombie horror movies. The Obama years alone should have brought that home in the most apparent manner. Anybody in the center or center-left should know this….but alas, many seem to pretend this evil can be warded off by magic incantations, giving them a few bite out of our ass, or a good rousing speech…Um, no.
but the Marxism
but the Marxism
i’d really not like to start left v left™ before Biden spends a night in the WH.
AOC might want to reflect on the fact that just saying “socialism” really does scare the pants off “conservatives” – almost as effectively as she does.
i’d really not like to start left v left™ before Biden spends a night in the WH.
AOC might want to reflect on the fact that just saying “socialism” really does scare the pants off “conservatives” – almost as effectively as she does.
cleek, I normally am with you, but after being told I’m a marxist over and over, I’m at the point where I don’t really give a shit what scares them or not….
cleek, I normally am with you, but after being told I’m a marxist over and over, I’m at the point where I don’t really give a shit what scares them or not….
I’m at the point where I don’t really give a shit what scares them or not
I still care that we win elections, and we have an important one coming up on January 5.
Is it not possible to talk about policies, specific policies, without using trigger words? I’m not suggesting that we hide our values.
I’m at the point where I don’t really give a shit what scares them or not
I still care that we win elections, and we have an important one coming up on January 5.
Is it not possible to talk about policies, specific policies, without using trigger words? I’m not suggesting that we hide our values.
If you use thpse trigger words, you’re basically making things easy for their politicians. (And what did they ever do for you that you owe them favors?)
Whereas if you just lay out policies, they actually have to address the substance. Or risk their voters noticing what it is that they’re just slapping labels on. Some, not all but some, of those voters might notice enough to reconsider their alliances.
If you use thpse trigger words, you’re basically making things easy for their politicians. (And what did they ever do for you that you owe them favors?)
Whereas if you just lay out policies, they actually have to address the substance. Or risk their voters noticing what it is that they’re just slapping labels on. Some, not all but some, of those voters might notice enough to reconsider their alliances.
What wj said.
Defund, abolish, redistribute, etc.
They might be cathartic to say but they terrify a lot of people who couyhelp win elections.
What wj said.
Defund, abolish, redistribute, etc.
They might be cathartic to say but they terrify a lot of people who couyhelp win elections.
Sapient – The fact that Sanders and AOC exist and call themselves Democratic Socialists means that the Rs will incite themselves with the S word no matter what the Ds do. Nothing anyone on the D side says will change that no matter what words are used at whatever volume. Half of them are convinced that Harris is already planning to remove Biden, take power and try to steal all the Rs guns while declaring a worker’s paradise.
The Rs want to be incited.
The Rs lose all self-identity and connection to their justification myth if they cease to be incited.
A big chunk of the Rs are struggling with The Albright Question as told by Powell: “What’s the point of having this superb military you are talking about if we can’t use it?” They are all dressed up in camo with no place to go.
We just have to try to ride this storm out because we can’t steer around it.
Sapient – The fact that Sanders and AOC exist and call themselves Democratic Socialists means that the Rs will incite themselves with the S word no matter what the Ds do. Nothing anyone on the D side says will change that no matter what words are used at whatever volume. Half of them are convinced that Harris is already planning to remove Biden, take power and try to steal all the Rs guns while declaring a worker’s paradise.
The Rs want to be incited.
The Rs lose all self-identity and connection to their justification myth if they cease to be incited.
A big chunk of the Rs are struggling with The Albright Question as told by Powell: “What’s the point of having this superb military you are talking about if we can’t use it?” They are all dressed up in camo with no place to go.
We just have to try to ride this storm out because we can’t steer around it.
Well, also in the interview is a lot of discussion about how the national party did not organize very well, leaving it to progressives to have to build a lot of these networks from scratch. Might be good to make a post about the article and discuss it rather than just take the notion that AOC’s tone is off.
If you look at the interview as negotiation, AOC is timing this right–you want us to work hard in Georgia, you better make sure we see the upside.
Well, also in the interview is a lot of discussion about how the national party did not organize very well, leaving it to progressives to have to build a lot of these networks from scratch. Might be good to make a post about the article and discuss it rather than just take the notion that AOC’s tone is off.
If you look at the interview as negotiation, AOC is timing this right–you want us to work hard in Georgia, you better make sure we see the upside.
If you use thpse trigger words, you’re basically making things easy for their politicians. (And what did they ever do for you that you owe them favors?)
Here we go again. Only Democrats have agency.
If you use thpse trigger words, you’re basically making things easy for their politicians. (And what did they ever do for you that you owe them favors?)
Here we go again. Only Democrats have agency.
Whereas if you just lay out policies, they actually have to address the substance.
This assertion is so demonstrably untrue that I don’t even know where to begin…..
Whereas if you just lay out policies, they actually have to address the substance.
This assertion is so demonstrably untrue that I don’t even know where to begin…..
I don’t completely disagree, nous, but please see comments by cleek and wj. It matters at the margins.
I don’t completely disagree, nous, but please see comments by cleek and wj. It matters at the margins.
Only Democrats have agency.
If I’m not mistaken, bobbyp, you live in a non-swing state. Please come visit Abigail Spanberger’s district for three months close to her next reelection.
This assertion is so demonstrably untrue that I don’t even know where to begin…..
So, in a swing state, saying “socialist!” is better than saying “We’ll give you healthcare despite your pre-existing conditions.”
Okay, again, talk to those politicians.
And I agree – lots of it is just robotic racism or non-racism. But at the margins, it matters.
Only Democrats have agency.
If I’m not mistaken, bobbyp, you live in a non-swing state. Please come visit Abigail Spanberger’s district for three months close to her next reelection.
This assertion is so demonstrably untrue that I don’t even know where to begin…..
So, in a swing state, saying “socialist!” is better than saying “We’ll give you healthcare despite your pre-existing conditions.”
Okay, again, talk to those politicians.
And I agree – lots of it is just robotic racism or non-racism. But at the margins, it matters.
So y’all are going to believe what you will, but when I write postcards to GA people, I’m not going to call myself a socialist.
So y’all are going to believe what you will, but when I write postcards to GA people, I’m not going to call myself a socialist.
This assertion is so demonstrably untrue that I don’t even know where to begin
I was obviously unclear on the rest of the statement. The part about or else their voters may notice the substance and decide they like it. Sorry. (You do realize, I assume, that you have a lot of policies that poll really well when voters are asked about them without the partisan labels. Might be an idea to work with that.)
This assertion is so demonstrably untrue that I don’t even know where to begin
I was obviously unclear on the rest of the statement. The part about or else their voters may notice the substance and decide they like it. Sorry. (You do realize, I assume, that you have a lot of policies that poll really well when voters are asked about them without the partisan labels. Might be an idea to work with that.)
My conception of the margins has been indelibly altered by the last four years. In 2016 I would have been in full agreement and be thinking of my own family when that argument was made.
Then we had the last four years and that argument was made. Repeatedly. Gently. With as much kindness and understanding as anyone could muster.
They went with the lies from their own side.
We have not changed hearts and minds. We’ve had an exchange of prisoners. They gave us some suburban white women. We gave them some latinx men.
We won because we registered and mustered more voters than they could disenfranchise this time around. Everything else is mood lighting.
My conception of the margins has been indelibly altered by the last four years. In 2016 I would have been in full agreement and be thinking of my own family when that argument was made.
Then we had the last four years and that argument was made. Repeatedly. Gently. With as much kindness and understanding as anyone could muster.
They went with the lies from their own side.
We have not changed hearts and minds. We’ve had an exchange of prisoners. They gave us some suburban white women. We gave them some latinx men.
We won because we registered and mustered more voters than they could disenfranchise this time around. Everything else is mood lighting.
I’m not suggesting that we hide our values.
With all due respect, sapient, to my way of thinking, that is exactly what you are asking us to do.
Perhaps it would be better to address the organization holes in the party (which are legion). Might be a more worthwhile discussion to have.
Look back at the wave elections of 2006, 2008, 2018 when some timorous center Dems won in swing or lean GOP districts, only to be washed away the next time around. They did not lose on the rebound because some lefties used the “s” word. Let’s try to figure out the real reasons, and go from there.
I’m not suggesting that we hide our values.
With all due respect, sapient, to my way of thinking, that is exactly what you are asking us to do.
Perhaps it would be better to address the organization holes in the party (which are legion). Might be a more worthwhile discussion to have.
Look back at the wave elections of 2006, 2008, 2018 when some timorous center Dems won in swing or lean GOP districts, only to be washed away the next time around. They did not lose on the rebound because some lefties used the “s” word. Let’s try to figure out the real reasons, and go from there.
Like lj said, AOC is right that there’s organizing that needs to happen. (Insert here standard bobbyp carp about only Democrats having agency.) Georgia, this time, is a pretty dramatic illustration of what can come of that.
Like lj said, AOC is right that there’s organizing that needs to happen. (Insert here standard bobbyp carp about only Democrats having agency.) Georgia, this time, is a pretty dramatic illustration of what can come of that.
We won because we registered and mustered more voters than they could disenfranchise this time around.
Don’t count your chickens. We haven’t won until Biden is inaugurated. And they registered voters too, using some kind of freaking “logic”. Some commenter on LGM said the “logic” was Trump’s signature on their COVID check.
We won because we registered and mustered more voters than they could disenfranchise this time around.
Don’t count your chickens. We haven’t won until Biden is inaugurated. And they registered voters too, using some kind of freaking “logic”. Some commenter on LGM said the “logic” was Trump’s signature on their COVID check.
If we did not win because they refuse to go and blow up the country to avoid leaving, then it has nothing to do with AOC and Bernie using a hurtful word.
If we did not win because they refuse to go and blow up the country to avoid leaving, then it has nothing to do with AOC and Bernie using a hurtful word.
With all due respect, sapient, to my way of thinking, that is exactly what you are asking us to do.
If Stacey Abrams uses the word “socialist”, I’ll consider using it too. When AOC proves that “socialist” didn’t discourage Latinx voters in Florida, I’ll be more comfortable with using “socialist”. I’m not going to use it in my neck of the woods by listening to someone from NYC or the Pacific Northwest, much as I love those places.
With all due respect, sapient, to my way of thinking, that is exactly what you are asking us to do.
If Stacey Abrams uses the word “socialist”, I’ll consider using it too. When AOC proves that “socialist” didn’t discourage Latinx voters in Florida, I’ll be more comfortable with using “socialist”. I’m not going to use it in my neck of the woods by listening to someone from NYC or the Pacific Northwest, much as I love those places.
If we did not win because they refuse to go and blow up the country to avoid leaving, then it has nothing to do with AOC and Bernie using a hurtful word.
Touche, but doesn’t address GA.
If we did not win because they refuse to go and blow up the country to avoid leaving, then it has nothing to do with AOC and Bernie using a hurtful word.
Touche, but doesn’t address GA.
Like lj said, AOC is right that there’s organizing that needs to happen.
AOC is all about Facebook, and she’s probably right. But where are the voices about “Facebook is corrupt!” as the accusations went against Hillary “She made speeches to Wall Street!”
Sure, we should be courting people on Facebook (which means, necessarily, supporting Facebook, ugh). This is the same moral dilemma as asking courting Wall Street.
But AOC good, HRC bad.
Like lj said, AOC is right that there’s organizing that needs to happen.
AOC is all about Facebook, and she’s probably right. But where are the voices about “Facebook is corrupt!” as the accusations went against Hillary “She made speeches to Wall Street!”
Sure, we should be courting people on Facebook (which means, necessarily, supporting Facebook, ugh). This is the same moral dilemma as asking courting Wall Street.
But AOC good, HRC bad.
So, in a swing state, saying “socialist!” is better than saying “We’ll give you healthcare despite your pre-existing conditions.”
Show me where I have ever said that.
So, in a swing state, saying “socialist!” is better than saying “We’ll give you healthcare despite your pre-existing conditions.”
Show me where I have ever said that.
Show me where I have ever said that.
Whereas if you just lay out policies, they actually have to address the substance.
This assertion is so demonstrably untrue that I don’t even know where to begin…..
Show me where I have ever said that.
Whereas if you just lay out policies, they actually have to address the substance.
This assertion is so demonstrably untrue that I don’t even know where to begin…..
And did I mess with italics?
And did I mess with italics?
Good.
Good.
If Stacey Abrams uses the word “socialist”, I’ll consider using it too. When AOC proves that “socialist” didn’t discourage Latinx voters in Florida, I’ll be more comfortable with using “socialist”.
Why does AOC have to ‘prove’ anything, especially prove a negative (as an attorney you should absolutely know better…I mean really).
As for Florida, this may come as a big surprise, but the Cuban American community has been overwhelmingly in the GOP camp for decades. Let’s cool it for a bit until we get better election data.
If Stacey Abrams uses the word “socialist”, I’ll consider using it too. When AOC proves that “socialist” didn’t discourage Latinx voters in Florida, I’ll be more comfortable with using “socialist”.
Why does AOC have to ‘prove’ anything, especially prove a negative (as an attorney you should absolutely know better…I mean really).
As for Florida, this may come as a big surprise, but the Cuban American community has been overwhelmingly in the GOP camp for decades. Let’s cool it for a bit until we get better election data.
Let’s cool it for a bit until we get better election data.
I’m totally for that. AOC is the one who complained immediately that Democratic outreach to LatinX people was lacking.
For the record, I love a lot of what she does and says, but she’s not a freaking expert on the southeastern swing states.
I don’t blame cleek for not making common cause with me, the unpopular one, who sometimes freaks out here in an annoying way, but cleek lives in NC, and I live in VA. “Socialism” doesn’t sell where we live. It doesn’t sell in a lot of places. Healthcare despite pre-existing conditions sells better.
Let’s cool it for a bit until we get better election data.
I’m totally for that. AOC is the one who complained immediately that Democratic outreach to LatinX people was lacking.
For the record, I love a lot of what she does and says, but she’s not a freaking expert on the southeastern swing states.
I don’t blame cleek for not making common cause with me, the unpopular one, who sometimes freaks out here in an annoying way, but cleek lives in NC, and I live in VA. “Socialism” doesn’t sell where we live. It doesn’t sell in a lot of places. Healthcare despite pre-existing conditions sells better.
Georgia, this time, is a pretty dramatic illustration of what can come of that.
If by “that” you mean a muscular and permanent ground game, well, count me in.
That lunatic Loomis at LGM just put up a post that is germain to this discussion. Check it out.
Georgia, this time, is a pretty dramatic illustration of what can come of that.
If by “that” you mean a muscular and permanent ground game, well, count me in.
That lunatic Loomis at LGM just put up a post that is germain to this discussion. Check it out.
You do realize, I assume, that you have a lot of policies that poll really well when voters are asked about them without the partisan labels.
But when you tell them how much it will cost…
You do realize, I assume, that you have a lot of policies that poll really well when voters are asked about them without the partisan labels.
But when you tell them how much it will cost…
But when you tell them how much it will cost…
But when you tell them how much they are already paying ….
Good article and good question, bobbyp.
But when you tell them how much it will cost…
But when you tell them how much they are already paying ….
Good article and good question, bobbyp.
I see that no one will speak to AOC’s support of Facebook. I haven’t seen squat. We all hate Facebook, right? Right?
I see that no one will speak to AOC’s support of Facebook. I haven’t seen squat. We all hate Facebook, right? Right?
cleek lives in NC, and I live in VA. “Socialism” doesn’t sell where we live. It doesn’t sell in a lot of places.
Just for the record, the list of places where “socialism” doesn’t sell includes most of California. The label gets thrown around a lot by others. But NOT by Democrats looking to win elections here.
cleek lives in NC, and I live in VA. “Socialism” doesn’t sell where we live. It doesn’t sell in a lot of places.
Just for the record, the list of places where “socialism” doesn’t sell includes most of California. The label gets thrown around a lot by others. But NOT by Democrats looking to win elections here.
I’ve over-commented, but just want to thank wj. I’m done for this evening.
Thanks, y’all, for being here to receive my rants.
I’ve over-commented, but just want to thank wj. I’m done for this evening.
Thanks, y’all, for being here to receive my rants.
Here we go again. Only Democrats have agency.
we’re talking about Democrats persuading voters not to vote GOP, right? the GOP isn’t going to do that for us. that’s on Democrats. in fact, the Dems have to beat the GOP at the game. so yes, Democrats better get some agency.
i didn’t see anything, not one thing, from the NC Democratic party. i saw ads from the national party.
but if i didn’t go look it up, i wouldn’t have even known who my D Congressional candidate was.
i’m not the volunteering type, but i am definitely the donating type. they didn’t even ask me for money.
Here we go again. Only Democrats have agency.
we’re talking about Democrats persuading voters not to vote GOP, right? the GOP isn’t going to do that for us. that’s on Democrats. in fact, the Dems have to beat the GOP at the game. so yes, Democrats better get some agency.
i didn’t see anything, not one thing, from the NC Democratic party. i saw ads from the national party.
but if i didn’t go look it up, i wouldn’t have even known who my D Congressional candidate was.
i’m not the volunteering type, but i am definitely the donating type. they didn’t even ask me for money.
muthhafukka italexio
muthhafukka italexio
I’ll try and get a post about AOC’s interview. I don’t think that ‘she’s all about facebook’ and I’ll try and highlight the interesting parts if everyone will give me a day.
I’ll try and get a post about AOC’s interview. I don’t think that ‘she’s all about facebook’ and I’ll try and highlight the interesting parts if everyone will give me a day.
Totally welcome, sapient. I see us as an example of how two people with very different political views can still agree on some stuff. And have civilized disagreements on others.
Totally welcome, sapient. I see us as an example of how two people with very different political views can still agree on some stuff. And have civilized disagreements on others.
Sorry, but:
What are we doing about the Trumpists’ attempted coup? Are we hoping that ignoring it will make it go away?
Sorry, but:
What are we doing about the Trumpists’ attempted coup? Are we hoping that ignoring it will make it go away?
But NOT by Democrats looking to win elections here.
Or just about anywhere, I’d wager. I live in the 34th LD in Seattle. The GOP doesn’t even bother to run candidates. The “far left” (as commonly understood by, inexplicably, most) rules with an iron fist (being sardonic here). Pramila Jayapal is our Congressperson (I’m very proud of her work).
Until COVID, I used to attend some of the monthly meetings. I’ve been to a lot of them over the years. I could drink a glass of wine (available for purchase…you gotta’ raise money however you can!) every time somebody said the word “socialism” and never even get high, much less drunk. We start every meeting with the Pledge of Allegiance. Not once has the assembled broken out in song to the ringing words of the internationale (more’s the pity).
Just sayin’. And for the record, AOC was responding to attacks on “those progresssives”. She didn’t start this by any means.
Let’s chill a bit and keep our eyes on the ball….fighting fascism.
Thanks.
But NOT by Democrats looking to win elections here.
Or just about anywhere, I’d wager. I live in the 34th LD in Seattle. The GOP doesn’t even bother to run candidates. The “far left” (as commonly understood by, inexplicably, most) rules with an iron fist (being sardonic here). Pramila Jayapal is our Congressperson (I’m very proud of her work).
Until COVID, I used to attend some of the monthly meetings. I’ve been to a lot of them over the years. I could drink a glass of wine (available for purchase…you gotta’ raise money however you can!) every time somebody said the word “socialism” and never even get high, much less drunk. We start every meeting with the Pledge of Allegiance. Not once has the assembled broken out in song to the ringing words of the internationale (more’s the pity).
Just sayin’. And for the record, AOC was responding to attacks on “those progresssives”. She didn’t start this by any means.
Let’s chill a bit and keep our eyes on the ball….fighting fascism.
Thanks.
“Thanks, y’all, for being here to receive my rants.”
No problem. Thanks for being on our side. Sometimes we forget we are, in the bigger scheme of things, allies.
All the best
“Thanks, y’all, for being here to receive my rants.”
No problem. Thanks for being on our side. Sometimes we forget we are, in the bigger scheme of things, allies.
All the best
muthhafukka italexio
I’m with you. Will you sign my petition? 🙂
muthhafukka italexio
I’m with you. Will you sign my petition? 🙂
I see that no one will speak to AOC’s support of Facebook.
AOC’s point there, if I’m not mistaken, is that the (D)’s haven’t made effective use of social media in general, and FB in particular.
Not pro FB or con FB. Just FB is there, it’s a thing, we should make use of it.
I generally agree with the idea that the (D)’s are not doing a good job building relationships and infrastructure outside of their (current) core areas. Folks have recognized, and commented on, that for years.
It’s not hating on (D)’s to say that, it’s just saying they need to get better at it.
Health care – not just insurance, but availability of and access to providers and facilities like hospitals. Education. Reliable high-capacity broadband. Stable commodity markets. Rational immigration policy, in some areas. All things that are important to rural Americans. All things where (D)’s have a good story. They need to get it out there.
I see that no one will speak to AOC’s support of Facebook.
AOC’s point there, if I’m not mistaken, is that the (D)’s haven’t made effective use of social media in general, and FB in particular.
Not pro FB or con FB. Just FB is there, it’s a thing, we should make use of it.
I generally agree with the idea that the (D)’s are not doing a good job building relationships and infrastructure outside of their (current) core areas. Folks have recognized, and commented on, that for years.
It’s not hating on (D)’s to say that, it’s just saying they need to get better at it.
Health care – not just insurance, but availability of and access to providers and facilities like hospitals. Education. Reliable high-capacity broadband. Stable commodity markets. Rational immigration policy, in some areas. All things that are important to rural Americans. All things where (D)’s have a good story. They need to get it out there.
Dreher just before the election wrote a piece proving that Kamala Harris is a totalitarian communist or something like that. I’m not exaggerating. In Rod’s case, I no longer believe in his honesty. I think he has a book to sell. He has always been an hysterical twit, but sincere in his terror of whoever the current boogeyman was. But now I think he is a bit of a grifter.
People past a certain point of the spectrum see everyone left of center as Pol Pot. So fine, don’t use the term socialist down there, but they will hear that AOC and Bernie use the term and so they will think Biden is just cover for the coming Bolshevik takeover.
And Conor Lamb in PA is upset that some Democrats want to end fracking. At some point, like right fracking now, if you take climate change seriously, we really do have to get out of the fossil fuel industry and create new jobs for these people. So argue about how to do it. But we have run out of time to be pandering to climate change denialism, even if it is in the Democratic Party.
Dreher just before the election wrote a piece proving that Kamala Harris is a totalitarian communist or something like that. I’m not exaggerating. In Rod’s case, I no longer believe in his honesty. I think he has a book to sell. He has always been an hysterical twit, but sincere in his terror of whoever the current boogeyman was. But now I think he is a bit of a grifter.
People past a certain point of the spectrum see everyone left of center as Pol Pot. So fine, don’t use the term socialist down there, but they will hear that AOC and Bernie use the term and so they will think Biden is just cover for the coming Bolshevik takeover.
And Conor Lamb in PA is upset that some Democrats want to end fracking. At some point, like right fracking now, if you take climate change seriously, we really do have to get out of the fossil fuel industry and create new jobs for these people. So argue about how to do it. But we have run out of time to be pandering to climate change denialism, even if it is in the Democratic Party.
Are we hoping that ignoring it will make it go away?
Well, “hope” is a start, but overall, the tenor of this question strikes me as rather loaded.
A new Tea Party is in the works.
We need to oppose this with all we can muster.
Are we hoping that ignoring it will make it go away?
Well, “hope” is a start, but overall, the tenor of this question strikes me as rather loaded.
A new Tea Party is in the works.
We need to oppose this with all we can muster.
People past a certain point of the spectrum see everyone left of center as Pol Pot. So fine, don’t use the term socialist down there, but they will hear that AOC and Bernie use the term and so they will think Biden is just cover for the coming Bolshevik takeover.
If you’re saying those people are simply not reachable, no argument. But those are far from the only folks voting Republican. Even if they are most of the attendees at Trump rallies.
It’s the folks who aren’t that far off the deep end that you’re trying to attract.
People past a certain point of the spectrum see everyone left of center as Pol Pot. So fine, don’t use the term socialist down there, but they will hear that AOC and Bernie use the term and so they will think Biden is just cover for the coming Bolshevik takeover.
If you’re saying those people are simply not reachable, no argument. But those are far from the only folks voting Republican. Even if they are most of the attendees at Trump rallies.
It’s the folks who aren’t that far off the deep end that you’re trying to attract.
I will say one thing in Lamb’s defense— he is implicitly making the argument that some people might vote Republican out of fear for their jobs — economic anxiety, in other words. Well,yeah, and we do have to think about how to reconcile the policies needed to fight climate change with the fear that some people have of losing their jobs.
WJ— if people in the South, where I am from, are repelled by the existence of people like AOC then they can’t be reached. If people on the left are told we aren’t welcome to say what we think, how much appeal is that going to make on the left side?
I am actually fine with people making rhetorical adjustments. “ Defund the police” is just a bad way to sell the idea that we need more social workers dealing with problems that are given to police. And I don’t think a CIA veteran running in the South wants to be seen as a socialist. But I wouldn’t vote for her unless I absolutely had to. One thing I have not been enamored with over the past four years is the lionizing of intelligence agencies. But sure, if that’s what wins in the south then I would expect her to distance herself from AOC. It doesn’t mean AOC should be quiet.
But I also think politicians in general should stop treating voters like idiots. They should make their best case for the policies they think are right. Much of what is called pragmatic politics strikes me as cynical manipulation and people know it. They often forgive their own side for doing it, but they know to some degree it is happening.
I will say one thing in Lamb’s defense— he is implicitly making the argument that some people might vote Republican out of fear for their jobs — economic anxiety, in other words. Well,yeah, and we do have to think about how to reconcile the policies needed to fight climate change with the fear that some people have of losing their jobs.
WJ— if people in the South, where I am from, are repelled by the existence of people like AOC then they can’t be reached. If people on the left are told we aren’t welcome to say what we think, how much appeal is that going to make on the left side?
I am actually fine with people making rhetorical adjustments. “ Defund the police” is just a bad way to sell the idea that we need more social workers dealing with problems that are given to police. And I don’t think a CIA veteran running in the South wants to be seen as a socialist. But I wouldn’t vote for her unless I absolutely had to. One thing I have not been enamored with over the past four years is the lionizing of intelligence agencies. But sure, if that’s what wins in the south then I would expect her to distance herself from AOC. It doesn’t mean AOC should be quiet.
But I also think politicians in general should stop treating voters like idiots. They should make their best case for the policies they think are right. Much of what is called pragmatic politics strikes me as cynical manipulation and people know it. They often forgive their own side for doing it, but they know to some degree it is happening.
he is implicitly making the argument that some people might vote Republican out of fear for their jobs
I am not convinced that these “some people” are voting GOP out of fear of losing their jobs. They are voting GOP out of fear of losing social status. They have jobs, perhaps crappy ones, but they have them.
We have to get people on board with the idea that THERE WILL BE NO MORE CRAPPY JOBS.
’nuff said.
he is implicitly making the argument that some people might vote Republican out of fear for their jobs
I am not convinced that these “some people” are voting GOP out of fear of losing their jobs. They are voting GOP out of fear of losing social status. They have jobs, perhaps crappy ones, but they have them.
We have to get people on board with the idea that THERE WILL BE NO MORE CRAPPY JOBS.
’nuff said.
But those are far from the only folks voting Republican.
Again, wj, can you provide ANY evidence for this assertion? Any? A “lot”? Really? Back it up.
There are not enough of these kind of imaginary voters to make a meaningful difference in a national election.
Why do you incessantly insist that we defer to them?
There is absolutely no evidence, none, that appeals to these types of voters (I accept they exist…the question is how many) exist in any meaningful numbers.
But perhaps I repeat myself. Not the first time.
But those are far from the only folks voting Republican.
Again, wj, can you provide ANY evidence for this assertion? Any? A “lot”? Really? Back it up.
There are not enough of these kind of imaginary voters to make a meaningful difference in a national election.
Why do you incessantly insist that we defer to them?
There is absolutely no evidence, none, that appeals to these types of voters (I accept they exist…the question is how many) exist in any meaningful numbers.
But perhaps I repeat myself. Not the first time.
Again, wj, can you provide ANY evidence for this assertion? Any?
Well, for “any” the obvious would be friends and family. Not for Trump, of course, but vote folks like Bush I or Romney? Sure. Voted for them in some cases; basically see themselves as conservative/Republican. And yet have no problem viewing folks like McConnell or Graham or Cruz, and all their works, as scum.
There are not enough of these kind of imaginary voters to make a meaningful difference in a national election.
Right back at you. Do you have evidence that there are not? Especially given how narrow some recent races have been.
Why do you incessantly insist that we defer to them?
I by no means insist, or even suggest, that you defer to them. At least, not as I understand the word “defer.” What I persist in suggesting is that it is possible to present yourselves and your positions** in such a way as to attract some votes from them. Pointing out that, in a fair number of races, it only takes a few votes to flip the result. And it only takes a few victories to flip some legislatures. And then do stuff (not everything, perhaps, but some stuff) that you would really like to see done.
** OK, I’ll admit that you, personally, may hold positions far enough left that you can’t attract them. But for the typical center-left, or even solidly left, Democrat? Like several of those here.
Again, wj, can you provide ANY evidence for this assertion? Any?
Well, for “any” the obvious would be friends and family. Not for Trump, of course, but vote folks like Bush I or Romney? Sure. Voted for them in some cases; basically see themselves as conservative/Republican. And yet have no problem viewing folks like McConnell or Graham or Cruz, and all their works, as scum.
There are not enough of these kind of imaginary voters to make a meaningful difference in a national election.
Right back at you. Do you have evidence that there are not? Especially given how narrow some recent races have been.
Why do you incessantly insist that we defer to them?
I by no means insist, or even suggest, that you defer to them. At least, not as I understand the word “defer.” What I persist in suggesting is that it is possible to present yourselves and your positions** in such a way as to attract some votes from them. Pointing out that, in a fair number of races, it only takes a few votes to flip the result. And it only takes a few victories to flip some legislatures. And then do stuff (not everything, perhaps, but some stuff) that you would really like to see done.
** OK, I’ll admit that you, personally, may hold positions far enough left that you can’t attract them. But for the typical center-left, or even solidly left, Democrat? Like several of those here.
They are really trying to steal this election, and the bulk of the Republican party is standing on the sidelines.
Barr tells prosecutors to investigate ‘vote irregularities’ despite lack of evidence
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/09/william-barr-vote-irregularities-donald-trump-election
Within hours of the news, the New York Times reported that the justice department official overseeing voter fraud investigations, Richard Pilger, had resigned from his position.
“Having familiarized myself with the new policy and its ramifications,” Pilger reportedly told colleagues in an email, “I must regretfully resign from my role as director of the Election Crimes Branch.”
Doubts about Barr’s intentions were heightened after it was reported that a few hours before the letter to prosecutors was disclosed, he met with Mitch McConnell, the Republican Senate majority leader….
They are really trying to steal this election, and the bulk of the Republican party is standing on the sidelines.
Barr tells prosecutors to investigate ‘vote irregularities’ despite lack of evidence
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/09/william-barr-vote-irregularities-donald-trump-election
Within hours of the news, the New York Times reported that the justice department official overseeing voter fraud investigations, Richard Pilger, had resigned from his position.
“Having familiarized myself with the new policy and its ramifications,” Pilger reportedly told colleagues in an email, “I must regretfully resign from my role as director of the Election Crimes Branch.”
Doubts about Barr’s intentions were heightened after it was reported that a few hours before the letter to prosecutors was disclosed, he met with Mitch McConnell, the Republican Senate majority leader….
Not pro FB or con FB. Just FB is there, it’s a thing, we should make use of it.
Corporations similarly. So, I’d prefer not to hear any more about “her speeches” or whatever they were spouting about “corporatism”. And maybe we need our own Cambridge Analytica as well. These things are not value neutral.
the bulk of the Republican party is standing on the sidelines.
They’re helping. Not standing by. They’re emulating the NC Republicans’ 2016 move. This is who they now are.
Not pro FB or con FB. Just FB is there, it’s a thing, we should make use of it.
Corporations similarly. So, I’d prefer not to hear any more about “her speeches” or whatever they were spouting about “corporatism”. And maybe we need our own Cambridge Analytica as well. These things are not value neutral.
the bulk of the Republican party is standing on the sidelines.
They’re helping. Not standing by. They’re emulating the NC Republicans’ 2016 move. This is who they now are.
They’re helping. Not standing by. They’re emulating the NC Republicans’ 2016 move. This is who they now are.
I’m drawing a blank on this. can you give some more details?
They’re helping. Not standing by. They’re emulating the NC Republicans’ 2016 move. This is who they now are.
I’m drawing a blank on this. can you give some more details?
good morning, wj. You write:
“Right back at you. Do you have evidence that there are not?”
Why yes, I certainly do.
Interesting theory. Your turn.
good morning, wj. You write:
“Right back at you. Do you have evidence that there are not?”
Why yes, I certainly do.
Interesting theory. Your turn.
An article about North Carolina 2016.
It’s now the Republican playbook.
An article about North Carolina 2016.
It’s now the Republican playbook.
bobbyp, your link @09.46 not working, unless it’s just me?
bobbyp, your link @09.46 not working, unless it’s just me?
[there’s no url in that link.]
[there’s no url in that link.]
bobbyp is not very good at this, and needs to hire a consultant. Another try.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/02/06/rachel-bitecofer-profile-election-forecasting-new-theory-108944
bobbyp is not very good at this, and needs to hire a consultant. Another try.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/02/06/rachel-bitecofer-profile-election-forecasting-new-theory-108944
OK, so I’ve been getting calls which fall into two categories on the election result itself:
1. It will be OK despite the shenanigans, Trump will have to go, Biden will be president on 20.1.21
2. Oh noes (h/t cleek)! The DOJ’s Head of Election Crimes having resigned when Barr authorised prosecutors to probe voter fraud claims, and Trump having sacked Esper, he will now sack the heads of the FBI and CIA. Since the GOP senators have gone along with everything so far, the election is really likely to be deligitimised and stolen.
1. Was my view, but I am getting nervous.
2. Seems a bit alarmist to me, because I think if DJT sacks the head of the FBI and the CIA, having sacked Esper, the GOP senators like McConnell and Graham will start to panic and fear civil breakdown and unrest, so will back down.
My question is: what does the commentariat here think?
OK, so I’ve been getting calls which fall into two categories on the election result itself:
1. It will be OK despite the shenanigans, Trump will have to go, Biden will be president on 20.1.21
2. Oh noes (h/t cleek)! The DOJ’s Head of Election Crimes having resigned when Barr authorised prosecutors to probe voter fraud claims, and Trump having sacked Esper, he will now sack the heads of the FBI and CIA. Since the GOP senators have gone along with everything so far, the election is really likely to be deligitimised and stolen.
1. Was my view, but I am getting nervous.
2. Seems a bit alarmist to me, because I think if DJT sacks the head of the FBI and the CIA, having sacked Esper, the GOP senators like McConnell and Graham will start to panic and fear civil breakdown and unrest, so will back down.
My question is: what does the commentariat here think?
Nobility, as in this individual’s action, must be put aside.
Doing the right thing is the null option against this Republican evil.
Do NOT resign. Stay on the job and bring a weapon to work and police the corrupt Trump Deep State filth from within.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/doj-head-of-election-crimes-branch-resigns-after-barr-allows-baseless-voter-fraud-probes
Nobility, as in this individual’s action, must be put aside.
Doing the right thing is the null option against this Republican evil.
Do NOT resign. Stay on the job and bring a weapon to work and police the corrupt Trump Deep State filth from within.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/doj-head-of-election-crimes-branch-resigns-after-barr-allows-baseless-voter-fraud-probes
My question is: what does the commentariat here think?
I have no idea.
If they find a way to FUBAR things enough to somehow prevent Biden from taking office, then we are in some deep poo. That actually would be a coup – there is no legitimate basis for a continued Trump presidency.
The only thing that makes this place work is the willingness of all parties to follow the rules and consent to the outcome.
And if anyone is tempted to weigh in with “yeah, but what about all the resistance to Trump?!?” I say bring it. Let’s have the conversation about the difference between Trump in 2016 and Biden in 2020.
Long way to go until January 20.
My question is: what does the commentariat here think?
I have no idea.
If they find a way to FUBAR things enough to somehow prevent Biden from taking office, then we are in some deep poo. That actually would be a coup – there is no legitimate basis for a continued Trump presidency.
The only thing that makes this place work is the willingness of all parties to follow the rules and consent to the outcome.
And if anyone is tempted to weigh in with “yeah, but what about all the resistance to Trump?!?” I say bring it. Let’s have the conversation about the difference between Trump in 2016 and Biden in 2020.
Long way to go until January 20.
I find Bitecofer’s case reasonably persuasive (though these things are never 100% right or wrong).
But it gets to a larger truth, which is that spending, for instance, $100m on a single senatorial race is of very limited use indeed without years of work on the ground (supported by party funding) beforehand.
Doug Jones put it quite well, after his bruising loss.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/10/democrats-anxious-after-election-performance-435600
…Jones, the sole incumbent Democratic senator to lose, said both party campaign arms need to change their mission. He said Stacey Abrams’ work in Georgia should be a model for the party’s work in individual states, while he contends the “DSCC and DCCC spend too much time investing in candidates and not the electorate. They don’t invest in House districts, they don’t invest in states.”
I find Bitecofer’s case reasonably persuasive (though these things are never 100% right or wrong).
But it gets to a larger truth, which is that spending, for instance, $100m on a single senatorial race is of very limited use indeed without years of work on the ground (supported by party funding) beforehand.
Doug Jones put it quite well, after his bruising loss.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/10/democrats-anxious-after-election-performance-435600
…Jones, the sole incumbent Democratic senator to lose, said both party campaign arms need to change their mission. He said Stacey Abrams’ work in Georgia should be a model for the party’s work in individual states, while he contends the “DSCC and DCCC spend too much time investing in candidates and not the electorate. They don’t invest in House districts, they don’t invest in states.”
“ am not convinced that these “some people” are voting GOP out of fear of losing their jobs. They are voting GOP out of fear of losing social status. They have jobs, perhaps crappy ones, but they have them.”
This is too sweeping and it is the problem with the discussion over the past four years— either it is all racism or all economic anxiety. A huge amount is racism or fear of change, but people are complicated and they are also driven by economic worries. It never used to be controversial to say this. If people have good jobs or had them, then they want to keep them or become bitter about losing them. This doesn’t explain affluent Trump voters. I see that type in the TAC comment sections. Frack them. But people who really are struggling or fear losing good jobs don’t always react in the manner that lefties wish they would. They might scapegoat.
“ am not convinced that these “some people” are voting GOP out of fear of losing their jobs. They are voting GOP out of fear of losing social status. They have jobs, perhaps crappy ones, but they have them.”
This is too sweeping and it is the problem with the discussion over the past four years— either it is all racism or all economic anxiety. A huge amount is racism or fear of change, but people are complicated and they are also driven by economic worries. It never used to be controversial to say this. If people have good jobs or had them, then they want to keep them or become bitter about losing them. This doesn’t explain affluent Trump voters. I see that type in the TAC comment sections. Frack them. But people who really are struggling or fear losing good jobs don’t always react in the manner that lefties wish they would. They might scapegoat.
That actually would be a coup – there is no legitimate basis for a continued Trump presidency.
(…)
And if anyone is tempted to weigh in with “yeah, but what about all the resistance to Trump?!?” I say bring it.
Yes. The “coup” against Trump was impeachment – a process built into our system of government during which evidence is presented before members of the Senate vote for or against, and all after members of the House voted for the proceedings to happen in the first place. The result was that Trump was acquitted and stayed in office. Legislators voting for or against impeachment and removal from office is pretty much the opposite of a coup. (Not that I need to tell anyone here that. I just needed to get it off my chest.)
That actually would be a coup – there is no legitimate basis for a continued Trump presidency.
(…)
And if anyone is tempted to weigh in with “yeah, but what about all the resistance to Trump?!?” I say bring it.
Yes. The “coup” against Trump was impeachment – a process built into our system of government during which evidence is presented before members of the Senate vote for or against, and all after members of the House voted for the proceedings to happen in the first place. The result was that Trump was acquitted and stayed in office. Legislators voting for or against impeachment and removal from office is pretty much the opposite of a coup. (Not that I need to tell anyone here that. I just needed to get it off my chest.)
bobby, Bitecofer has a theory: that there are essentially no swing voters. And she has model based on that. Which isn’t quite the same as evidence.
But consider, “her model tells her the Democrats are a near lock for the presidency in 2020, and are likely to gain House seats and have a decent shot at retaking the Senate.” But in fact, the Democrats lost House seats. And while she was less sure about the Senate, that’s not looking too great either (unfortunately). Not least because Collins won in Maine at the same time Biden did. I’d say a split ticket is a pretty good indication of a swing voter.
P.S. Let me say in passing that I do realize that I am essentially asking you to prove a negative. Which is never easy. But still, some evidence ought to be available.
bobby, Bitecofer has a theory: that there are essentially no swing voters. And she has model based on that. Which isn’t quite the same as evidence.
But consider, “her model tells her the Democrats are a near lock for the presidency in 2020, and are likely to gain House seats and have a decent shot at retaking the Senate.” But in fact, the Democrats lost House seats. And while she was less sure about the Senate, that’s not looking too great either (unfortunately). Not least because Collins won in Maine at the same time Biden did. I’d say a split ticket is a pretty good indication of a swing voter.
P.S. Let me say in passing that I do realize that I am essentially asking you to prove a negative. Which is never easy. But still, some evidence ought to be available.
if anyone is tempted to weigh in with “yeah, but what about all the resistance to Trump?!?” I say bring it. Let’s have the conversation about the difference between Trump in 2016 and Biden in 2020.
For that matter, the resistance to Trump was pretty small beer compared to the McConnell-led resistance to Obama.
if anyone is tempted to weigh in with “yeah, but what about all the resistance to Trump?!?” I say bring it. Let’s have the conversation about the difference between Trump in 2016 and Biden in 2020.
For that matter, the resistance to Trump was pretty small beer compared to the McConnell-led resistance to Obama.
My question is: what does the commentariat here think?
No one is going to steal the election this way. Barr had to do something to make his boss less unhappy. The memo says “specious, speculative, fanciful or far-fetched claims should not be a basis for initiating federal inquiries.” The time frame for DOJ investigations and indictments is far too long — votes will be certified, electors will vote, and Congress will accept those results long before the DOJ is ready to show up in court with their case.
My question is: what does the commentariat here think?
No one is going to steal the election this way. Barr had to do something to make his boss less unhappy. The memo says “specious, speculative, fanciful or far-fetched claims should not be a basis for initiating federal inquiries.” The time frame for DOJ investigations and indictments is far too long — votes will be certified, electors will vote, and Congress will accept those results long before the DOJ is ready to show up in court with their case.
wj,
You can find out a great deal about Bitecofer’s hypothesis on line. She is a political scientist, and her take is based on “the data”. I find it fairly persuasive. See here for example.
I know some “decent republicans”. They mouth all the right words. They don’t come across as lunatics. When they go into the voting booth they pull the GOP handle. They vote for Trump. If you try to talk politics with them, they get very defensive or angry or make it quite clear that they do not want to talk about it.
They are in a tribe. In our increasingly polarized politics, we all are pretty much going to our corners. This is unfortunate, but it is reality.
I remember a thread here where the poster started with the idea of have conservatives and liberals to try and have a ‘meeting of the minds’ on any topic…an attempt to find that common ground. I remember getting into it with Marty over abortion. I started by conceding that absent full legalization (my policy preference), Roe would be a good compromise. He wouldn’t have anything to do with it. Abortion is murder. End of story. Such reasonableness!
Charlie Pierce wrote a recent squib about the Lincoln Project and the tens of millions of dollars they spent. He opined the costly effort may have persuaded as many as 10 people. Essentially, this to my way of thinking is correct.
wj,
You can find out a great deal about Bitecofer’s hypothesis on line. She is a political scientist, and her take is based on “the data”. I find it fairly persuasive. See here for example.
I know some “decent republicans”. They mouth all the right words. They don’t come across as lunatics. When they go into the voting booth they pull the GOP handle. They vote for Trump. If you try to talk politics with them, they get very defensive or angry or make it quite clear that they do not want to talk about it.
They are in a tribe. In our increasingly polarized politics, we all are pretty much going to our corners. This is unfortunate, but it is reality.
I remember a thread here where the poster started with the idea of have conservatives and liberals to try and have a ‘meeting of the minds’ on any topic…an attempt to find that common ground. I remember getting into it with Marty over abortion. I started by conceding that absent full legalization (my policy preference), Roe would be a good compromise. He wouldn’t have anything to do with it. Abortion is murder. End of story. Such reasonableness!
Charlie Pierce wrote a recent squib about the Lincoln Project and the tens of millions of dollars they spent. He opined the costly effort may have persuaded as many as 10 people. Essentially, this to my way of thinking is correct.
Michael Cain: I particularly thank you for your response, which cheered me up somewhat!
Michael Cain: I particularly thank you for your response, which cheered me up somewhat!
Charlie Pierce wrote a recent squib about the Lincoln Project and the tens of millions of dollars they spent. He opined the costly effort may have persuaded as many as 10 people. Essentially, this to my way of thinking is correct.
I hope this is wrong, for obvious reasons. These guys were very effective attack dogs for the GOP in the past, as I understand it, so I can’t see why some wavering conservatives wouldn’t have been open to their point of view. And at the very least, they kept the concept of a “principled opposition” alive, in a country where norms were (and are) being transgressed and destroyed wholesale.
Charlie Pierce wrote a recent squib about the Lincoln Project and the tens of millions of dollars they spent. He opined the costly effort may have persuaded as many as 10 people. Essentially, this to my way of thinking is correct.
I hope this is wrong, for obvious reasons. These guys were very effective attack dogs for the GOP in the past, as I understand it, so I can’t see why some wavering conservatives wouldn’t have been open to their point of view. And at the very least, they kept the concept of a “principled opposition” alive, in a country where norms were (and are) being transgressed and destroyed wholesale.
I remember getting into it with Marty over abortion. I started by conceding that absent full legalization (my policy preference), Roe would be a good compromise. He wouldn’t have anything to do with it. Abortion is murder. End of story. Such reasonableness!
It reminds me of the joke where two people (a husband and wife in the sexist version) each want to eat the same pie in whole. So one of them suggests they each eat half. The other says, “Let’s compromise, and I’ll eat three quarters.” The difference is that Marty still wants the whole thing.
I remember getting into it with Marty over abortion. I started by conceding that absent full legalization (my policy preference), Roe would be a good compromise. He wouldn’t have anything to do with it. Abortion is murder. End of story. Such reasonableness!
It reminds me of the joke where two people (a husband and wife in the sexist version) each want to eat the same pie in whole. So one of them suggests they each eat half. The other says, “Let’s compromise, and I’ll eat three quarters.” The difference is that Marty still wants the whole thing.
I know some “decent republicans”. They mouth all the right words. They don’t come across as lunatics. When they go into the voting booth they pull the GOP handle. They vote for Trump.
bobby, you have my condolences. But if that’s what you’ve seen, I can understand where you’re coming from.
The “decent Republicans” I know do not, reflexibly, “pull the GOP handle.” They vote for some Republicans. They also vote for some Democrats. They definitely did not vote for Trump. Not in the primaries; not in the general election. (Also didn’t vote for McCain, for example, after his selection of Palin for VP called his judgement into question.)
I know some “decent republicans”. They mouth all the right words. They don’t come across as lunatics. When they go into the voting booth they pull the GOP handle. They vote for Trump.
bobby, you have my condolences. But if that’s what you’ve seen, I can understand where you’re coming from.
The “decent Republicans” I know do not, reflexibly, “pull the GOP handle.” They vote for some Republicans. They also vote for some Democrats. They definitely did not vote for Trump. Not in the primaries; not in the general election. (Also didn’t vote for McCain, for example, after his selection of Palin for VP called his judgement into question.)
Meanwhile, I see the Lincoln Project is targeting law firms (Jones Day and Porter Wright – and possibly their clients) who are acting on behalf of the GOP on their subvert-the-election project. I guess this too is “cancel culture”. I wonder what e.g. the McKinneys of this world think about it when practised by known conservatives, as opposed to the woke “hard left”.
Meanwhile, I see the Lincoln Project is targeting law firms (Jones Day and Porter Wright – and possibly their clients) who are acting on behalf of the GOP on their subvert-the-election project. I guess this too is “cancel culture”. I wonder what e.g. the McKinneys of this world think about it when practised by known conservatives, as opposed to the woke “hard left”.
If the Lincoln Project gets GM (one of their targets) to dump Jones Day, that will definitely get the law firm’s attention. Be a useful reminder that actions have consequences.
If the Lincoln Project gets GM (one of their targets) to dump Jones Day, that will definitely get the law firm’s attention. Be a useful reminder that actions have consequences.
Have just heard that Pompeo has said “there will be a smooth transition to a second Trump administration”. FFS, what on earth is happening with these appalling second-raters, and their current free reign?
Have just heard that Pompeo has said “there will be a smooth transition to a second Trump administration”. FFS, what on earth is happening with these appalling second-raters, and their current free reign?
i’m baffled by the scorn for the Lincoln Project and for never-Trumpers in general.
what the hell is wrong with allies? why police the borders of liberaldom?
i’m baffled by the scorn for the Lincoln Project and for never-Trumpers in general.
what the hell is wrong with allies? why police the borders of liberaldom?
I’m witchoo, baby.
I’m witchoo, baby.
I’m witchoo, baby.
Yes, me too.
I’m witchoo, baby.
Yes, me too.
FFS, what on earth is happening with these appalling second-raters, and their current free reign?
agonal respiration
FFS, what on earth is happening with these appalling second-raters, and their current free reign?
agonal respiration
what the hell is wrong with allies?
I’m happy to have had their help this year. I find it hard not to wonder if they won’t be coming for the (D)’s in Congress in two years, and for Biden and Harris in 2024.
So, my regard for them is… qualified.
I welcome their help, but will be watching our back going forward.
Pompeo has said “there will be a smooth transition to a second Trump administration”.
Pompeo, of course, being our present Secretary of State.
This must be a confusing time for every other country on the planet. Hopefully lasting damage isn’t being done.
what the hell is wrong with allies?
I’m happy to have had their help this year. I find it hard not to wonder if they won’t be coming for the (D)’s in Congress in two years, and for Biden and Harris in 2024.
So, my regard for them is… qualified.
I welcome their help, but will be watching our back going forward.
Pompeo has said “there will be a smooth transition to a second Trump administration”.
Pompeo, of course, being our present Secretary of State.
This must be a confusing time for every other country on the planet. Hopefully lasting damage isn’t being done.
what the hell is wrong with allies? why police the borders of liberaldom?
Oh, for fuck’s sake. Nobody is denigrating allies (but note, these are folks who foisted Bush on our country….give that some ‘effing thought, OK?)
Nobody is policing anything. You want policing? Read J. Chait, hippie puncher in chief (but I do like his other stuff).
ALL I SAID WAS THIS: The Lincoln Project had very nice ads. The question is, beyond MSNBC salivation, how many votes changed from GOP to Dem as a result?
You may note this is an empirical question.
what the hell is wrong with allies? why police the borders of liberaldom?
Oh, for fuck’s sake. Nobody is denigrating allies (but note, these are folks who foisted Bush on our country….give that some ‘effing thought, OK?)
Nobody is policing anything. You want policing? Read J. Chait, hippie puncher in chief (but I do like his other stuff).
ALL I SAID WAS THIS: The Lincoln Project had very nice ads. The question is, beyond MSNBC salivation, how many votes changed from GOP to Dem as a result?
You may note this is an empirical question.
The “decent Republicans” I know do not, reflexibly, “pull the GOP handle.”
Good to know. My argument is this, and only this: Their numbers are small. The resources expended to “appease” them is out of all proportion to the return (i.e., votes).
There are better ways.
The “decent Republicans” I know do not, reflexibly, “pull the GOP handle.”
Good to know. My argument is this, and only this: Their numbers are small. The resources expended to “appease” them is out of all proportion to the return (i.e., votes).
There are better ways.
ALL I SAID WAS THIS: The Lincoln Project had very nice ads.
and since i didn’t mention your name…. ?
pissing on the Lincoln Project is a hot new thing for the lefties here there and everywhere to do this week. and i think it’s dumb.
ALL I SAID WAS THIS: The Lincoln Project had very nice ads.
and since i didn’t mention your name…. ?
pissing on the Lincoln Project is a hot new thing for the lefties here there and everywhere to do this week. and i think it’s dumb.
If the Lincoln Project had simply helped fund Stacey Abrams to the tune of $60,000,000 they would have my undying admiration and thanks.
But they did not.
If the Lincoln Project had simply helped fund Stacey Abrams to the tune of $60,000,000 they would have my undying admiration and thanks.
But they did not.
I’m happy to have had their help this year. I find it hard not to wonder if they won’t be coming for the (D)’s in Congress in two years, and for Biden and Harris in 2024.
Allow me to suggest that, should that happen, it will be an indication that the Trumpistas have become so minor as to be a non-factor in our nation’s politics. Which, IMHO, would be a huge step forward from today.
Not saying caution is inappropriate. Just suggesting that borrowing trouble (which is how I read the original suggestion) is overkill.
I’m happy to have had their help this year. I find it hard not to wonder if they won’t be coming for the (D)’s in Congress in two years, and for Biden and Harris in 2024.
Allow me to suggest that, should that happen, it will be an indication that the Trumpistas have become so minor as to be a non-factor in our nation’s politics. Which, IMHO, would be a huge step forward from today.
Not saying caution is inappropriate. Just suggesting that borrowing trouble (which is how I read the original suggestion) is overkill.
My argument is this, and only this: Their numbers are small. The resources expended to “appease” them is out of all proportion to the return (i.e., votes).
Not quite clear what the resources required would be. All that’s being suggested is to refrain from phrasings (NOT policies) which are antagonistic. I can see that might be an irritation; can’t see it absorbing resources.
My argument is this, and only this: Their numbers are small. The resources expended to “appease” them is out of all proportion to the return (i.e., votes).
Not quite clear what the resources required would be. All that’s being suggested is to refrain from phrasings (NOT policies) which are antagonistic. I can see that might be an irritation; can’t see it absorbing resources.
If the Lincoln Project had simply helped fund Stacey Abrams to the tune of $60,000,000 they would have my undying admiration and thanks.
But they did not
So help is only acceptable if it is in the form that you prefer?
If the Lincoln Project had simply helped fund Stacey Abrams to the tune of $60,000,000 they would have my undying admiration and thanks.
But they did not
So help is only acceptable if it is in the form that you prefer?
This has been another episode of people thinking different things that change nothing but still make the other people angry. ;^)
This has been another episode of people thinking different things that change nothing but still make the other people angry. ;^)
borrowing trouble
Given their resumes, it is IMO entirely reasonable to expect that they would support (R) candidates in future election cycles.
Especially moderate (R) candidates, where “moderate” means people like W Bush and John McCain.
There is, of course, a world of difference between either McCain and Trump, and between W Bush and Trump. But I’m not interested in somebody like McCain or Bush being POTUS.
I appreciate their help in getting Trump out of office. They and the (D)’s had a common interest this year in sending him home. That common interest may not exist, going forward. I won’t be surprised to see them trying to replace (D)’s in Congress and the White House in future elections.
It doesn’t mean I hate them or think they’re evil people, it just means I’m not counting on them as electoral allies in the long run.
borrowing trouble
Given their resumes, it is IMO entirely reasonable to expect that they would support (R) candidates in future election cycles.
Especially moderate (R) candidates, where “moderate” means people like W Bush and John McCain.
There is, of course, a world of difference between either McCain and Trump, and between W Bush and Trump. But I’m not interested in somebody like McCain or Bush being POTUS.
I appreciate their help in getting Trump out of office. They and the (D)’s had a common interest this year in sending him home. That common interest may not exist, going forward. I won’t be surprised to see them trying to replace (D)’s in Congress and the White House in future elections.
It doesn’t mean I hate them or think they’re evil people, it just means I’m not counting on them as electoral allies in the long run.
Nobody is denigrating allies (but note, these are folks who foisted Bush on our country….give that some ‘effing thought, OK?)
It’s even worse than that. One of their founders, Steve Schmidt, almost succeeded in foisting Palin on us. Last I looked, he evinced no regret, but since she was very clearly the John the Baptist for Trump I believe he has been trying to expiate. And I don’t know what will happen in future elections, but they are making it clear they are fighting the good fight for the Georgia runoff, so for now, that’s good enough for me. The proximate emergency is getting rid of Trump and the current malefactors’ control of the senate, and after that Trumpism. If they are allies in that fight, that’ll do.
Nobody is denigrating allies (but note, these are folks who foisted Bush on our country….give that some ‘effing thought, OK?)
It’s even worse than that. One of their founders, Steve Schmidt, almost succeeded in foisting Palin on us. Last I looked, he evinced no regret, but since she was very clearly the John the Baptist for Trump I believe he has been trying to expiate. And I don’t know what will happen in future elections, but they are making it clear they are fighting the good fight for the Georgia runoff, so for now, that’s good enough for me. The proximate emergency is getting rid of Trump and the current malefactors’ control of the senate, and after that Trumpism. If they are allies in that fight, that’ll do.
So help is only acceptable if it is in the form that you prefer?
LOL, LOL. I shall be happy to answer that question when you tell me when you stopped beating your wife.
So help is only acceptable if it is in the form that you prefer?
LOL, LOL. I shall be happy to answer that question when you tell me when you stopped beating your wife.
and, to put a nail in it….what hsh said.
and, to put a nail in it….what hsh said.
I shall be happy to answer that question when you tell me when you stopped beating your wife.
After I had taught her martial arts and she got good at it. (I’m a good teacher. 😉
You’re up! LOL
I shall be happy to answer that question when you tell me when you stopped beating your wife.
After I had taught her martial arts and she got good at it. (I’m a good teacher. 😉
You’re up! LOL
If the Lincoln Project had simply helped fund Stacey Abrams to the tune of $60,000,000 they would have my undying admiration and thanks.
Except that would have to have been done a couple of years back to be of any great use.
And that would be a far more convincing critique of the DNC.
I think the Lincoln guys had an effect.
It was quite clear from the results that a number of Republicans split tickets when they voted against Trump. Not ideal, I’m sure, but far preferable to the alternative.
And I don’t think it was necessarily about persuasion – more making Republicans aware that a number of their party were thinking the same way.
If the Lincoln Project had simply helped fund Stacey Abrams to the tune of $60,000,000 they would have my undying admiration and thanks.
Except that would have to have been done a couple of years back to be of any great use.
And that would be a far more convincing critique of the DNC.
I think the Lincoln guys had an effect.
It was quite clear from the results that a number of Republicans split tickets when they voted against Trump. Not ideal, I’m sure, but far preferable to the alternative.
And I don’t think it was necessarily about persuasion – more making Republicans aware that a number of their party were thinking the same way.
I think the Lincoln guys had an effect.
i think so too. my not-really-politically-interested FB friends shared a lot of their videos.
IMO, the very worst thing the never-Trumpers could do is to be advocates for a sane conservative party. and, honestly, that’s fine. i assume there will always be conservatives and liberals, and i assume power will flip between them now and then. given that, i’d much prefer to have a sane conservative party than anything like what Trumpism offers.
i guess one could assume there will be no conservative party at all. but, that seems unrealistic to me.
I think the Lincoln guys had an effect.
i think so too. my not-really-politically-interested FB friends shared a lot of their videos.
IMO, the very worst thing the never-Trumpers could do is to be advocates for a sane conservative party. and, honestly, that’s fine. i assume there will always be conservatives and liberals, and i assume power will flip between them now and then. given that, i’d much prefer to have a sane conservative party than anything like what Trumpism offers.
i guess one could assume there will be no conservative party at all. but, that seems unrealistic to me.
This is a pretty hot potato, and not to denigrate anyone here, but in the context of this blog, concerns that we shouldn’t be dumping on the Lincoln Project are a bit whataboutism (whataboutistic? bit of whatabouttery? not sure what the correct form is)
I may be wrong, but I don’t remember anyone here complaining about the Lincoln project, and several times, their commercials have been posted here. Sure, people have attached caveats, but I don’t get the vibe that folks here are telling them to f**k off. However, I don’t see that we should be running to them for advice on what to do next.
Most of the people here in varying degress realize that Trump isn’t some total aberration, but the inevitable end point of a lot of Republican policies and approaches. So the ‘but they helped us’ gets the reply, at least from me of ‘ok, now how about some ads for voter registration or a national health’.
This is a pretty hot potato, and not to denigrate anyone here, but in the context of this blog, concerns that we shouldn’t be dumping on the Lincoln Project are a bit whataboutism (whataboutistic? bit of whatabouttery? not sure what the correct form is)
I may be wrong, but I don’t remember anyone here complaining about the Lincoln project, and several times, their commercials have been posted here. Sure, people have attached caveats, but I don’t get the vibe that folks here are telling them to f**k off. However, I don’t see that we should be running to them for advice on what to do next.
Most of the people here in varying degress realize that Trump isn’t some total aberration, but the inevitable end point of a lot of Republican policies and approaches. So the ‘but they helped us’ gets the reply, at least from me of ‘ok, now how about some ads for voter registration or a national health’.
I agree with Nigel and cleek. Further to which, in today’s WaPo in an article about the Lincoln Project’s campaign against Jones Day et al, this:
All this raises broader questions. It’s often argued that Never-Trump Republicans simply want to cleanse the GOP of the taint of Trump; that once he’s gone they will revert to supporting Republican ideological goals and the counter-majoritarian tactics that Republicans wield to hold power.
But the Lincoln Project’s co-founders have insisted that they will continue to advocate for expanded voting rights and against voter suppression, as a precondition for the GOP’s legitimacy. This raises at least the possibility for a space in which Never Trumpers can be seen as advocates for stronger democracy and fair rules of political competition, even if they disagree with progressive policy aims.
So here’s hoping.
I agree with Nigel and cleek. Further to which, in today’s WaPo in an article about the Lincoln Project’s campaign against Jones Day et al, this:
All this raises broader questions. It’s often argued that Never-Trump Republicans simply want to cleanse the GOP of the taint of Trump; that once he’s gone they will revert to supporting Republican ideological goals and the counter-majoritarian tactics that Republicans wield to hold power.
But the Lincoln Project’s co-founders have insisted that they will continue to advocate for expanded voting rights and against voter suppression, as a precondition for the GOP’s legitimacy. This raises at least the possibility for a space in which Never Trumpers can be seen as advocates for stronger democracy and fair rules of political competition, even if they disagree with progressive policy aims.
So here’s hoping.
I think what the Lincoln Project does is valuable – not because I think their ads were responsible for changing any votes among the undecided, but because they helped maintain the morale of the Rs that had already decided to vote against Trump. It’s a lonely and despairing place and they need some comfort in their convictions.
Also, they were a good source of the rhetorical equivalent of harassing fire. Their ads likely provoked The Orange One’s ire and sidetracked his team from more effective responses to Biden in the process.
They may not have had any direct effect in flipping votes, but that does not mean they were not a helpful asset even if that were so.
I think what the Lincoln Project does is valuable – not because I think their ads were responsible for changing any votes among the undecided, but because they helped maintain the morale of the Rs that had already decided to vote against Trump. It’s a lonely and despairing place and they need some comfort in their convictions.
Also, they were a good source of the rhetorical equivalent of harassing fire. Their ads likely provoked The Orange One’s ire and sidetracked his team from more effective responses to Biden in the process.
They may not have had any direct effect in flipping votes, but that does not mean they were not a helpful asset even if that were so.
This raises at least the possibility for a space in which Never Trumpers can be seen as advocates for stronger democracy and fair rules of political competition, even if they disagree with progressive policy aims.
Works for me.
At the risk of repeating myself unduly, I’m more than glad that they were involved in this election cycle. I’m sure that, if nothing else, they gave some credibility to the idea of moderate (R)’s voting for Biden, regardless of how they voted down-ticket.
And all of that is, net/net, a good thing, from my point of view.
I don’t think we should assume they will be the friends of the (D) electoral slate in future elections.
Maybe they will, maybe they won’t. It probably depends on who is running, in both parties.
In general, my interests don’t really align with the (R) party, whether that’s the nice moderate (R)’s or the bizarro world QAnon (R)’s. I don’t want the same things they do.
I’m glad if their efforts support things I support, I just don’t see the overlapping area of the Venn diagram to be that large.
“Trump has got to go” is a very, very important goal. But it’s also a very narrow one.
I welcome their help when it’s available, I don’t expect it to be available going forward, and I am mostly not interested in watering down the things I am interested in and support in order to solicit their assistance.
I would prefer that People Like Me spend the next couple of years focused on building a solid ground game and figuring out why we’ve lost the interest of rural communities and the working class, than in trying to cultivate some kind of working relationship with the Lincoln Project. Their solutions to all of that ^^^ is not the same as mine.
We had a common interest this time around. I’m glad they stepped up. Thank you, good people of the Lincoln Project, I’m glad to have your help and participation any time it supports things that are important to me.
I’m not interested in compromising the things that are important to me to secure that assistance going forward. If they want to come along, fine. If not, fine.
This raises at least the possibility for a space in which Never Trumpers can be seen as advocates for stronger democracy and fair rules of political competition, even if they disagree with progressive policy aims.
Works for me.
At the risk of repeating myself unduly, I’m more than glad that they were involved in this election cycle. I’m sure that, if nothing else, they gave some credibility to the idea of moderate (R)’s voting for Biden, regardless of how they voted down-ticket.
And all of that is, net/net, a good thing, from my point of view.
I don’t think we should assume they will be the friends of the (D) electoral slate in future elections.
Maybe they will, maybe they won’t. It probably depends on who is running, in both parties.
In general, my interests don’t really align with the (R) party, whether that’s the nice moderate (R)’s or the bizarro world QAnon (R)’s. I don’t want the same things they do.
I’m glad if their efforts support things I support, I just don’t see the overlapping area of the Venn diagram to be that large.
“Trump has got to go” is a very, very important goal. But it’s also a very narrow one.
I welcome their help when it’s available, I don’t expect it to be available going forward, and I am mostly not interested in watering down the things I am interested in and support in order to solicit their assistance.
I would prefer that People Like Me spend the next couple of years focused on building a solid ground game and figuring out why we’ve lost the interest of rural communities and the working class, than in trying to cultivate some kind of working relationship with the Lincoln Project. Their solutions to all of that ^^^ is not the same as mine.
We had a common interest this time around. I’m glad they stepped up. Thank you, good people of the Lincoln Project, I’m glad to have your help and participation any time it supports things that are important to me.
I’m not interested in compromising the things that are important to me to secure that assistance going forward. If they want to come along, fine. If not, fine.
All good points, nous. Seconded.
All good points, nous. Seconded.
russell too. It looks to me like most of us are basically in agreement, at least for now.
However, I don’t see that we should be running to them for advice on what to do next.
No argument with that, either.
russell too. It looks to me like most of us are basically in agreement, at least for now.
However, I don’t see that we should be running to them for advice on what to do next.
No argument with that, either.
I would prefer that People Like Me spend the next couple of years focused on building a solid ground game and figuring out why we’ve lost the interest of rural communities and the working class …
Sorry to be repetitive and boring, but the reason that we’ve lost the interest of rural communities and the [white] working class is because racism makes some people feel better. When Democrats were racists, but willing to provide social services, this was fine with rural communities and the [white] working class. When Democrats began leading the movement for civil rights, we lost that segment. This is not hard.
Why did many of them vote for Obama? Because the 2008 financial crisis scared the s*** out of everyone, and people were getting tired of the wars in the Middle East. They tolerated Obama for two years before the Tea Party racists captured their imagination.
It’s possible that younger rural and [white] working class people will not see things in the same way that the older ones do – we’ll have to take a look at demographics once all of the numbers are in.
I would prefer that People Like Me spend the next couple of years focused on building a solid ground game and figuring out why we’ve lost the interest of rural communities and the working class …
Sorry to be repetitive and boring, but the reason that we’ve lost the interest of rural communities and the [white] working class is because racism makes some people feel better. When Democrats were racists, but willing to provide social services, this was fine with rural communities and the [white] working class. When Democrats began leading the movement for civil rights, we lost that segment. This is not hard.
Why did many of them vote for Obama? Because the 2008 financial crisis scared the s*** out of everyone, and people were getting tired of the wars in the Middle East. They tolerated Obama for two years before the Tea Party racists captured their imagination.
It’s possible that younger rural and [white] working class people will not see things in the same way that the older ones do – we’ll have to take a look at demographics once all of the numbers are in.
By the way, I know that a majority of white women voted for Trump in 2016, and maybe did so again, although I’m not sure that data is in yet.
I am a white woman, and don’t enjoy being despised as a member of this demographic when I (and many old white lady friends of mine) have been working for Democrats, working for black lives, working for progressive causes. So I don’t mean to say that every person who belongs in whatever demographic we happen to be describing is part of the problem. But this is the general state of things.
By the way, I know that a majority of white women voted for Trump in 2016, and maybe did so again, although I’m not sure that data is in yet.
I am a white woman, and don’t enjoy being despised as a member of this demographic when I (and many old white lady friends of mine) have been working for Democrats, working for black lives, working for progressive causes. So I don’t mean to say that every person who belongs in whatever demographic we happen to be describing is part of the problem. But this is the general state of things.
The Lincoln Project conducted a master class in How To Attack Trumpistas. It won’t be the Lincoln Project’s fault if Democrats turn out to be too dainty to apply those lessons.
–TP
The Lincoln Project conducted a master class in How To Attack Trumpistas. It won’t be the Lincoln Project’s fault if Democrats turn out to be too dainty to apply those lessons.
–TP
A solid ground game, ASAP, is obviously of the utmost importance. Including Stacey Abrams style voter registration in every state. Keeping momentum is going to be tough; hopefully the Rs’ current shenanigans (assuming they are ultimately unsuccessful) will be helpful for that.
A solid ground game, ASAP, is obviously of the utmost importance. Including Stacey Abrams style voter registration in every state. Keeping momentum is going to be tough; hopefully the Rs’ current shenanigans (assuming they are ultimately unsuccessful) will be helpful for that.
I am a white woman, and don’t enjoy being despised as a member of this demographic…
I am a straight white male Boomer. I’ve been despised for at least 20 years because of that demographic. Sometime within the last couple of years I have been told how despicable my demographic is by a young woman — whom I think didn’t realize that I belonged to it, but I may be wrong about that — on the side of a bicycle trail miles from anywhere while I was repairing her bike chain.
I am a white woman, and don’t enjoy being despised as a member of this demographic…
I am a straight white male Boomer. I’ve been despised for at least 20 years because of that demographic. Sometime within the last couple of years I have been told how despicable my demographic is by a young woman — whom I think didn’t realize that I belonged to it, but I may be wrong about that — on the side of a bicycle trail miles from anywhere while I was repairing her bike chain.
Yes, Michael Cain, I can relate. But when I start feeling bad about it, I have to remember that my experience of being despised is mostly theoretical, and that I’ve not been regularly terrorized as some folks in other despised demographics have.
Yes, Michael Cain, I can relate. But when I start feeling bad about it, I have to remember that my experience of being despised is mostly theoretical, and that I’ve not been regularly terrorized as some folks in other despised demographics have.
Tony P wins the thread, but bobbyp gets the silver.
Thank you, never-trumpers, Lincoln Project.
After the Inauguration, go away. You are Stephen Douglas backers at heart, and if Democrats finally adopt your bile, we’ll build statuary of you in public squares.
That you wish to dispense with Trump’s thug malignancy does little to blunt your preferred Republican murderous policies, so viciously fought for by you for decades.
The Republican Secretary of State in charge of elections is now under armed guard from subhuman conservative movement death threats ordered from Republican office holders.
I hope Marty and McKinney are seeking out the murderers’ blogs to give them a tongue lashing about how it’s all cleek’s and Lj’s fault.
Shenanigans are what pubescent teenagers do.
Trump and company will kill.
Tony P wins the thread, but bobbyp gets the silver.
Thank you, never-trumpers, Lincoln Project.
After the Inauguration, go away. You are Stephen Douglas backers at heart, and if Democrats finally adopt your bile, we’ll build statuary of you in public squares.
That you wish to dispense with Trump’s thug malignancy does little to blunt your preferred Republican murderous policies, so viciously fought for by you for decades.
The Republican Secretary of State in charge of elections is now under armed guard from subhuman conservative movement death threats ordered from Republican office holders.
I hope Marty and McKinney are seeking out the murderers’ blogs to give them a tongue lashing about how it’s all cleek’s and Lj’s fault.
Shenanigans are what pubescent teenagers do.
Trump and company will kill.
Of Georgia, that Secretary of State who loves trump but loves him some constitution too, which almost makes me wants to puke.
Of Georgia, that Secretary of State who loves trump but loves him some constitution too, which almost makes me wants to puke.
Indeed, sapient. My demographic has made so many things so much easier for me my entire life. I will never be able to appreciate how much harder things have been/are for people without my privilege. And now I am old and tired and it’s harder to keep trying to help.
Indeed, sapient. My demographic has made so many things so much easier for me my entire life. I will never be able to appreciate how much harder things have been/are for people without my privilege. And now I am old and tired and it’s harder to keep trying to help.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/11/10/1994810/-GOP-donors-paid-130-000-to-postal-worker-to-claim-voter-fraud
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/11/10/1994810/-GOP-donors-paid-130-000-to-postal-worker-to-claim-voter-fraud
the reason that we’ve lost the interest of rural communities and the [white] working class is because racism makes some people feel better.
Then they need something that will make them feel even better than racism.
I have been told how despicable my demographic is by a young woman — whom I think didn’t realize that I belonged to it, but I may be wrong about that — on the side of a bicycle trail miles from anywhere while I was repairing her bike chain.
I hope you won’t be offended if this made me laugh out loud.
I run into stuff like this a lot, too. I usually reply by saying we’ll be dead soon, and then you (millenial / gen-x / whatever interlocutor) get to have all the cookies, along with everything that comes along with having all the cookies.
Sometimes I follow that up with “try not to f*** it up!”, followed by “good luck!”.
I wonder what the Lincoln Project thinks of Rick DeSantis.
Trump is the epiphenomenon. The rot goes much deeper.
the reason that we’ve lost the interest of rural communities and the [white] working class is because racism makes some people feel better.
Then they need something that will make them feel even better than racism.
I have been told how despicable my demographic is by a young woman — whom I think didn’t realize that I belonged to it, but I may be wrong about that — on the side of a bicycle trail miles from anywhere while I was repairing her bike chain.
I hope you won’t be offended if this made me laugh out loud.
I run into stuff like this a lot, too. I usually reply by saying we’ll be dead soon, and then you (millenial / gen-x / whatever interlocutor) get to have all the cookies, along with everything that comes along with having all the cookies.
Sometimes I follow that up with “try not to f*** it up!”, followed by “good luck!”.
I wonder what the Lincoln Project thinks of Rick DeSantis.
Trump is the epiphenomenon. The rot goes much deeper.
I hate myself for not using Venmo.
I hate myself for not using Venmo.
When I run into someone making nasty generalizations about demographic groups I’m in, I have to remind myself:
All of you (all of us, when it comes to me in some ways, mostly not visible to strangers) who are not white, not straight, not able-bodied, not cis-gendered who look at white people, especially white men, and feel worry for your safety and well-being are quite justified. The average person who looks like me and my friends is a threat to your standing in civil society, your protection under the laws, your economic opportunities, your relationships, and on and on.
Those of us who are trying not to be part of that problem have our work cut out for us, and honestly, being recognized for groups we’re in by so many of the intended victims of our group’s majority should be a low priority for us.
When I run into someone making nasty generalizations about demographic groups I’m in, I have to remind myself:
All of you (all of us, when it comes to me in some ways, mostly not visible to strangers) who are not white, not straight, not able-bodied, not cis-gendered who look at white people, especially white men, and feel worry for your safety and well-being are quite justified. The average person who looks like me and my friends is a threat to your standing in civil society, your protection under the laws, your economic opportunities, your relationships, and on and on.
Those of us who are trying not to be part of that problem have our work cut out for us, and honestly, being recognized for groups we’re in by so many of the intended victims of our group’s majority should be a low priority for us.
Why, indeed?
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/11/its-not-a-coup-yet/
The Deepest State ever, now readying for a domestic military coup on behalf of trump conservative vermin.
We are in grave danger.
I wish nous, and cleek, and lj would stop causing the subhumans to behave like fascists by making cheeky comments on a little known blog.
Why, indeed?
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/11/its-not-a-coup-yet/
The Deepest State ever, now readying for a domestic military coup on behalf of trump conservative vermin.
We are in grave danger.
I wish nous, and cleek, and lj would stop causing the subhumans to behave like fascists by making cheeky comments on a little known blog.
The more red, fake Christian, and right wing the state, the more deliberate the pandemic deaths and the more fascist the murderous law enforcement policies.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/republican-governors-want-to-crack-down-on-protests-by-targeting-their-funding-how-that-could-create-a-slippery-slope-11604955230?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
Fight.
The more red, fake Christian, and right wing the state, the more deliberate the pandemic deaths and the more fascist the murderous law enforcement policies.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/republican-governors-want-to-crack-down-on-protests-by-targeting-their-funding-how-that-could-create-a-slippery-slope-11604955230?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
Fight.
“All of you (all of us, when it comes to me in some ways, mostly not visible to strangers) who are not white, not straight, not able-bodied, not cis-gendered who look at white people, especially white men, and feel worry for your safety and well-being are quite justified.”
Bullshit.
“All of you (all of us, when it comes to me in some ways, mostly not visible to strangers) who are not white, not straight, not able-bodied, not cis-gendered who look at white people, especially white men, and feel worry for your safety and well-being are quite justified.”
Bullshit.
Mighty christian of ya, Marty.
Mighty christian of ya, Marty.
(assuming they are ultimately unsuccessful)
this”>https://twitter.com/pricewallace/status/1325233771638091776+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us”>this man hopes to succeed.
i wish him well.
a deep well.
i wish he’d spend some time at the bottom of a deep well.
well. well. well.
(assuming they are ultimately unsuccessful)
this”>https://twitter.com/pricewallace/status/1325233771638091776+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us”>this man hopes to succeed.
i wish him well.
a deep well.
i wish he’d spend some time at the bottom of a deep well.
well. well. well.
JFC
so that (very strange) URL can’t be posted correctly.
this one should work better.
JFC
so that (very strange) URL can’t be posted correctly.
this one should work better.
“ All of you (all of us, when it comes to me in some ways, mostly not visible to strangers) who are not white, not straight, not able-bodied, not cis-gendered who look at white people, especially white men, and feel worry for your safety and well-being are quite justified.”
Now do class.
“ All of you (all of us, when it comes to me in some ways, mostly not visible to strangers) who are not white, not straight, not able-bodied, not cis-gendered who look at white people, especially white men, and feel worry for your safety and well-being are quite justified.”
Now do class.
Dean Baker does class.
https://cepr.net/donald-trump-and-being-deplorable/
Dean Baker does class.
https://cepr.net/donald-trump-and-being-deplorable/
Thanks for the memories, Jon…
https://twitter.com/jonvoight/status/1326323889417322497
Thanks for the memories, Jon…
https://twitter.com/jonvoight/status/1326323889417322497
Dean Baker does class.
Thanks, Donald!
Dean Baker does class.
Thanks, Donald!
policy all you want, Mr Baker. but there’s big money to be made telling people to be terrified of Democrats. and that money is going to be made.
policy all you want, Mr Baker. but there’s big money to be made telling people to be terrified of Democrats. and that money is going to be made.
Not to beat a dead horse, but it’s harder to convince people to be terrified of (D)’s if (D)’s show up. Especially if they make their case in terms that resonate with people who are being told to be afraid of them.
No doubt many folks won’t buy it. Some will.
You have to at least show up.
None of my comment here is about hating on (D)’s, or throwing marginalized communities under the bus. It’s not an either/or.
My understanding is that the (D)’s as a party have neglected some areas of the country. That leaves the field open for their opponents to paint them in whatever light they want.
Show up and listen. That makes it hard for people to tell lies about you.
Not to beat a dead horse, but it’s harder to convince people to be terrified of (D)’s if (D)’s show up. Especially if they make their case in terms that resonate with people who are being told to be afraid of them.
No doubt many folks won’t buy it. Some will.
You have to at least show up.
None of my comment here is about hating on (D)’s, or throwing marginalized communities under the bus. It’s not an either/or.
My understanding is that the (D)’s as a party have neglected some areas of the country. That leaves the field open for their opponents to paint them in whatever light they want.
Show up and listen. That makes it hard for people to tell lies about you.
yeah, wrs
yeah, wrs
From cleek’s link
Granted they promptly got denounced as RINOs by those who are dumb enough to think that secedeing would work any better the second time around. But those here who never see anything good in Republicans might want to acknowledge that these two got something right.
From cleek’s link
Granted they promptly got denounced as RINOs by those who are dumb enough to think that secedeing would work any better the second time around. But those here who never see anything good in Republicans might want to acknowledge that these two got something right.
Donald: I’m working on it (as in, over the course of years). It’s hard thanks to complexities of marks, and I don’t feel like I yet know enough to have the confidence in my clue level I should. t’s hugely important, I’m just not yet one of the right ones to hold forth a lot.
There might be a day when Marty’s response wouldn’t just be backed up by obvious lies and the occasional originally honestly intended claim long since refuted multiple times and re-asserted despite all that, but I’m thinking that day is not this day, no engagement here.
Donald: I’m working on it (as in, over the course of years). It’s hard thanks to complexities of marks, and I don’t feel like I yet know enough to have the confidence in my clue level I should. t’s hugely important, I’m just not yet one of the right ones to hold forth a lot.
There might be a day when Marty’s response wouldn’t just be backed up by obvious lies and the occasional originally honestly intended claim long since refuted multiple times and re-asserted despite all that, but I’m thinking that day is not this day, no engagement here.
There can sometimes be a (small) upside to having a petulant toddler in the White House. From CNN
There are enough Trump marks who support him, rather than Republicans per se, that them staying home for the runoff would tip the scales. Anybody want to bet on Trump not sulking over this?
There can sometimes be a (small) upside to having a petulant toddler in the White House. From CNN
There are enough Trump marks who support him, rather than Republicans per se, that them staying home for the runoff would tip the scales. Anybody want to bet on Trump not sulking over this?
Trump miss a chance to stand in front of cheering idiots?
yeah right.
Trump miss a chance to stand in front of cheering idiots?
yeah right.
policy all you want, Mr Baker. but there’s big money to be made telling people to be terrified of Democrats. and that money is going to be made.
You take exception to the policies proposed by Baker? The point you are making above is not entirely clear to me, cleek. Thanks.
policy all you want, Mr Baker. but there’s big money to be made telling people to be terrified of Democrats. and that money is going to be made.
You take exception to the policies proposed by Baker? The point you are making above is not entirely clear to me, cleek. Thanks.
Anybody want to bet on Trump not sulking over this?
If the odds are right, why not? What odds are you laying? 🙂
Anybody want to bet on Trump not sulking over this?
If the odds are right, why not? What odds are you laying? 🙂
You take exception to the policies proposed by Baker?
not really.
i just don’t think people who subscribe to the “conservative” mythology are likely to care about policy arguments. and i don’t think the people who supply that mythology are going to let an objective policy argument happen without turning it into another round of Socialists Are Gonna Kill All Y’all!
You take exception to the policies proposed by Baker?
not really.
i just don’t think people who subscribe to the “conservative” mythology are likely to care about policy arguments. and i don’t think the people who supply that mythology are going to let an objective policy argument happen without turning it into another round of Socialists Are Gonna Kill All Y’all!
If the odds are right, why not? What odds are you laying?
Considering how close the election is likely to be, I was thinking even money. How about it? Am I winning any sucker bets today? 😉
If the odds are right, why not? What odds are you laying?
Considering how close the election is likely to be, I was thinking even money. How about it? Am I winning any sucker bets today? 😉
This New Yorker account from Florida confirms the criticisms from two years ago.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/campaign-chronicles/as-trump-gained-latino-support-in-florida-bidens-campaign-ignored-warnings
If the Democrats ever got their shit together o the ground, they would be dangerous.
This New Yorker account from Florida confirms the criticisms from two years ago.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/campaign-chronicles/as-trump-gained-latino-support-in-florida-bidens-campaign-ignored-warnings
If the Democrats ever got their shit together o the ground, they would be dangerous.
Considering how close the election is likely to be, I was thinking even money. How about it? Am I winning any sucker bets today? 😉
Well, OK. I’ll take points.
Considering how close the election is likely to be, I was thinking even money. How about it? Am I winning any sucker bets today? 😉
Well, OK. I’ll take points.
it’s like Jen Rubin and i share a mind (about Trump and the GOP at least):
it’s like Jen Rubin and i share a mind (about Trump and the GOP at least):
Following cleek’s quote of Rubin, it is really hard to develop a class-based argument/approach when the other side leverages it to get what they want.
Following cleek’s quote of Rubin, it is really hard to develop a class-based argument/approach when the other side leverages it to get what they want.
https://twitter.com/jonvoight/status/1326323889417322497
Bring it the fuck on, Voight.
https://twitter.com/jonvoight/status/1326323889417322497
Bring it the fuck on, Voight.
Love those quotes, Cleek. Right on.
Love those quotes, Cleek. Right on.
Donnie Deutsch has been serving up cheap crap-American dog shit for a couple of decades, but he may be on to Trump’s subhuman wavelength here.
https://www.msnbc.com/deadline-white-house/watch/donny-deutsch-donald-trump-is-in-pre-production-right-now-95670341765
Donnie Deutsch has been serving up cheap crap-American dog shit for a couple of decades, but he may be on to Trump’s subhuman wavelength here.
https://www.msnbc.com/deadline-white-house/watch/donny-deutsch-donald-trump-is-in-pre-production-right-now-95670341765
Love those quotes, Cleek. Right on.
Yes. Very heartwarming to Dems who are all in opposing the GOP and Trumpism. And true! The real “elites” contempt for their voters is well documented (see Rick Perlstein on this). Donald Trump, for just one tiny example, wouldn’t be caught dead in an Iowa diner. This has been known for quite some time.
So….what is the next step?
Love those quotes, Cleek. Right on.
Yes. Very heartwarming to Dems who are all in opposing the GOP and Trumpism. And true! The real “elites” contempt for their voters is well documented (see Rick Perlstein on this). Donald Trump, for just one tiny example, wouldn’t be caught dead in an Iowa diner. This has been known for quite some time.
So….what is the next step?
So….what is the next step?
I’d like to say a renewed focus on a self-governing commonwealth. Of the people, by the people, for the people.
All of that requires the people to bear the burden of governing themselves.
We’ve had a lot of crap POTUS’s and lots of general weirdness in government over the last 250 years. But I don’t think we’ve ever seen anything quite like what we’re looking at right now.
DJT is in “pre-production”? The lives of 330 million people, and the legacy of 250 years of American history and governance, should be at the service of some vain asshole’s ratings?
He diminishes everything he touches. He’s making a laughing stock of this country, and of the institutions that make it possible for this country to exist as a nation.
I’ve had enough of his crap, and I’ve had enough of the freaking parlor game of trying to make sense of his perverse mind and what he’s done to this country.
He lost. What’s the next step? Ignore the MF’er and move on.
So….what is the next step?
I’d like to say a renewed focus on a self-governing commonwealth. Of the people, by the people, for the people.
All of that requires the people to bear the burden of governing themselves.
We’ve had a lot of crap POTUS’s and lots of general weirdness in government over the last 250 years. But I don’t think we’ve ever seen anything quite like what we’re looking at right now.
DJT is in “pre-production”? The lives of 330 million people, and the legacy of 250 years of American history and governance, should be at the service of some vain asshole’s ratings?
He diminishes everything he touches. He’s making a laughing stock of this country, and of the institutions that make it possible for this country to exist as a nation.
I’ve had enough of his crap, and I’ve had enough of the freaking parlor game of trying to make sense of his perverse mind and what he’s done to this country.
He lost. What’s the next step? Ignore the MF’er and move on.
Well, the discussion started on how people with advantages accept anger from others. It’s often generational, so one thing to do is to actually step aside and be quiet for a bit, though the boomer generation (of which I am on the tail end) has always had a problem doing that.
Another way is to not flaunt one’s position or the opposite, poor-mouthing what you have. I’m not accusing anyone here of doing either of those, but it’s important to push back on the zeitgeist. Kim Kardashian thought it was a good idea to talk about her birthday bash, if you are stupid enough to do shit like that, you probably deserve to be cancelled.
Bruce’s comment was meaningful to me, insofar as I’m always trying to think what I should do. Though I’m Japanese-American, it seems problematic to use that to talk about any issues that I am on the receiving end of (which are really minor but do exist), so I notice, but I only speak up to complain when it happens to someone else and only present my experience to show that I at least understand. But it’s a tightrope to walk and I’m sure I fail at it more often than not.
But that is broadly dealing with people who generally agree with the liberal/left critique. The guys (and they are guys, right) driving the rolling coal trucks, the people who go for bible for thee but not for me, I think they kind of deserve whatever contempt they get.
Interestingly enough, Dean Baker has this post up
https://cepr.net/the-biden-10-million-vote-landslide/
If the other side got beat that badly, my thought is that we concentrate on ballot access and election transparency to make that margin clearer. Then it will be a lot harder for the elites to hide.
Well, the discussion started on how people with advantages accept anger from others. It’s often generational, so one thing to do is to actually step aside and be quiet for a bit, though the boomer generation (of which I am on the tail end) has always had a problem doing that.
Another way is to not flaunt one’s position or the opposite, poor-mouthing what you have. I’m not accusing anyone here of doing either of those, but it’s important to push back on the zeitgeist. Kim Kardashian thought it was a good idea to talk about her birthday bash, if you are stupid enough to do shit like that, you probably deserve to be cancelled.
Bruce’s comment was meaningful to me, insofar as I’m always trying to think what I should do. Though I’m Japanese-American, it seems problematic to use that to talk about any issues that I am on the receiving end of (which are really minor but do exist), so I notice, but I only speak up to complain when it happens to someone else and only present my experience to show that I at least understand. But it’s a tightrope to walk and I’m sure I fail at it more often than not.
But that is broadly dealing with people who generally agree with the liberal/left critique. The guys (and they are guys, right) driving the rolling coal trucks, the people who go for bible for thee but not for me, I think they kind of deserve whatever contempt they get.
Interestingly enough, Dean Baker has this post up
https://cepr.net/the-biden-10-million-vote-landslide/
If the other side got beat that badly, my thought is that we concentrate on ballot access and election transparency to make that margin clearer. Then it will be a lot harder for the elites to hide.
the next step.
will it be perfect? no, it won’t.
will it be better than the rank bullshit we’ve put up with for the last four years? yes, it will.
and then, if we’re lucky there will be many next steps after that.
the next step.
will it be perfect? no, it won’t.
will it be better than the rank bullshit we’ve put up with for the last four years? yes, it will.
and then, if we’re lucky there will be many next steps after that.
https://digbysblog.net/2020/11/this-is-about-more-than-ego-stroking/
https://digbysblog.net/2020/11/this-is-about-more-than-ego-stroking/
Snyder’s analysis seems 100% on the money to me.
Biden will be in the White House in January, as the state margins are just too large to be overturned, so the efforts he describes will come to nothing over the next month. But the stab in the back myth will take hold with at least a quarter of the electorate.
‘If the election was stolen, then anything is then permitted’ is a disturbing logic, but it will be true for a very large number of people.
The Voigt video is a joke, but it’s a creepy one as not everyone will see it that way.
And the electoral barriers for Democrats in key states are going to get higher with next year’s redistricting.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/democrats-statehouses-republican-control-gerrymandering-redistricting-census.html
Snyder’s analysis seems 100% on the money to me.
Biden will be in the White House in January, as the state margins are just too large to be overturned, so the efforts he describes will come to nothing over the next month. But the stab in the back myth will take hold with at least a quarter of the electorate.
‘If the election was stolen, then anything is then permitted’ is a disturbing logic, but it will be true for a very large number of people.
The Voigt video is a joke, but it’s a creepy one as not everyone will see it that way.
And the electoral barriers for Democrats in key states are going to get higher with next year’s redistricting.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/democrats-statehouses-republican-control-gerrymandering-redistricting-census.html
hmm, I’m not sure I would call this “a very nice ad”, bobbyp 🙂
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nytBEWbwOkw
It has a certain Chuck Norris “Missing in Action” 80s vibe to it, but I think we should have moved on a bit by now…
hmm, I’m not sure I would call this “a very nice ad”, bobbyp 🙂
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nytBEWbwOkw
It has a certain Chuck Norris “Missing in Action” 80s vibe to it, but I think we should have moved on a bit by now…
this is /chef’s-kiss beautiful. Trump’s latest THEY’RE STEALING THE ELECTION fundraising email:
the GOP is a scam, top to bottom.
this is /chef’s-kiss beautiful. Trump’s latest THEY’RE STEALING THE ELECTION fundraising email:
the GOP is a scam, top to bottom.
the stab in the back myth will take hold with at least a quarter of the electorate.
Wonder how many of those are already believers in the Lost Cause mythology. (For those outside the US, that’s the delusion that the Confederacy was something noble. Rather than just an attempt to preserve slavery.)
Some people are just too far gone to reach. And note that I say that as one of those who is presistently arguing for reaching out to those who are persuadable.
the stab in the back myth will take hold with at least a quarter of the electorate.
Wonder how many of those are already believers in the Lost Cause mythology. (For those outside the US, that’s the delusion that the Confederacy was something noble. Rather than just an attempt to preserve slavery.)
Some people are just too far gone to reach. And note that I say that as one of those who is presistently arguing for reaching out to those who are persuadable.
I think this needs to be a more common topic of discussion:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_Advisory_Commission_on_Election_Integrity
Lame Duck made more or less the same claims about the 2016 election and formed a commission to investigate those claims once in office. Nada. Zilch. Zero. Why does anyone believe the same crap 4 years later?
In the words of President George W. Bush, “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, er, um … don’t get fooled again.”
I think this needs to be a more common topic of discussion:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_Advisory_Commission_on_Election_Integrity
Lame Duck made more or less the same claims about the 2016 election and formed a commission to investigate those claims once in office. Nada. Zilch. Zero. Why does anyone believe the same crap 4 years later?
In the words of President George W. Bush, “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, er, um … don’t get fooled again.”
Something from The Atlantic on the same topic.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/kris-kobach-and-search-mythical-voter-fraud/617069/
Something from The Atlantic on the same topic.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/kris-kobach-and-search-mythical-voter-fraud/617069/
It would be soooo fitting if this happens.
https://www.axios.com/trump-fox-news-digital-media-competitor-25afddee-144d-4820-8ed4-9eb0ffa42420.html
MAD between Fox and Trump, with both ending up imploding. It would be really hard, but if it happens I would feel compelled to say that Trump had (totally inadvertently!) done something positive for the nation — to wit taken out Fox. Which would, no question, be a Good Thing.
It would be soooo fitting if this happens.
https://www.axios.com/trump-fox-news-digital-media-competitor-25afddee-144d-4820-8ed4-9eb0ffa42420.html
MAD between Fox and Trump, with both ending up imploding. It would be really hard, but if it happens I would feel compelled to say that Trump had (totally inadvertently!) done something positive for the nation — to wit taken out Fox. Which would, no question, be a Good Thing.