So much

by

by liberal japonicus

So much stuff happening, so hard to make sense of it all. My strategy is to usually to take a small corner of it and poke and prod at it, which I’ll subject all of you too.

To lay down my cards, I’m largely in agreement with this article.

The Bucks put their season on the line. The players’ dreams of winning a championship were willingly sacrificed. And when the five other NBA teams scheduled to play Wednesday joined in not playing, they collectively threw the future of the league, and, ergo, their own personal financial futures up in the air.
They deserve the benefit of the doubt that they knew exactly what they were doing. All the evidence coming out of the NBA bubble in Florida points that way. The Bucks players issued a statement Wednesday evening, asking for the police officers that shot Blake to be “held accountable” and for the Wisconsin State Legislature to reconvene and “take up meaningful measures to address issues of police accountability, brutality, and criminal justice reform.”
And whether you agree with their protest and message or not, these players’ levels of sacrifice must be respected.

I wonder if this author, who dismissed George Hill’s comments, would reconsider his position or hold to it. It’s also a sign that history may not repeat itself, but it definitely rhymes when we consider that was 4 years ago to the day that Colin Kaepernick began his prescient protest during the National Anthem at a pre-season game.

I know we have a strange mix here with some people irretrivably in love with sports and others who just don’t see the point. We also have people who might not be familiar with US sports. So I think that we might have a range of opinions on all this, but regardless what you think of the decision though, you have to acknowledge that it is unprecedented. Sports has always been something that has been held to, regardless of what else happens in the world. In fact, when John F. Kennedy was assassinated, the decision was to continue to play professional football, despite players not wanting to play.

It will be interesting to read a history of the moment of the strike. I don’t think it is unsurprising that the Bucks were first to strike (strictly speaking, it is not a boycott). Milwaukee is 40 miles from Kenosha. But Milwaukee was also up 3-1 in the playoffs. Had it been a team that was losing, one can imagine people claiming it was an excuse, but you can’t really claim that for the Bucks. But I’d love to know how the decision came about. Accounts say that it was a decision made totally by the players. George Hill, Bucks point guard and team leader and the recipient of a new 3 year 29 million dollar contract, has been the most vocal about how the Orlando ‘bubble’ has drawn the focus away from social justice. Giannis Antetokounmpo, who many are saying may be on his way to becoming an all-time great, is not American, and I often believe that outsiders can sometimes have a clearer view. But is also is, I think, a story of a team decision, they did make a team statement, but how such a momentous decision occured is something that I think historians may look at in the future.

And Milwaukee has a recent history of being at the front. They supported their teammate, Stirling Brown when this happened.

On January 26, 2018, Brown was tased and arrested inappropriately according to the Milwaukee Police Department Police Chief Alfonso Morales the following May. Brown brought suit in June 2018 after the May release of bodycam footage and alleges racial profiling occurred in the administration of a parking ticket at a Walgreens parking lot. In October 2019, Brown rejected a $400,000 settlement offer.Brown has expressed that he has rejected the offer in part due to his ability and sense of responsibility to use his platform as an NBA player to raise awareness.

The team was one of the first to protest after George Floyd’s murder, happening just over the state line in Minneapolis.

After the Bucks refused to play, not only did other NBA teams also join in, but a number of other teams in different professional sports did as well. The video of this Guardian article, showing Kenny Smith stepping away from the broadcast and the comments of Chris Webber and Doc Rivers is also a sign of the solidarity. I’m sure that some will suggest that the other NBA players are being silenced by political correctness, but I don’t see that.

Reportage says that the Lakers and the Clippers the teams that don’t want to continue while all the other teams still in the playoffs do. That could be taken that this strike is being pushed by a small number of players on three teams out of 13 teams remaining, but looking at Five Thirty Eight’s predictions, there’s a 50% chance that one of those three teams would be the winner is what I take away.

It was only a few years ago that Kaepernick began what I believe was a prescient protest. This event had me find stories about the activism of Craig Hodges, former Chicago Bull and how he approached Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson on the eve of the first game of 91 Finals and asked that they consider striking for that first game as a protest.

As I said, I’m sure that there are other opinions, and looking at twitter (always a mistake) has people attacking the players. How many do they represent?

866 thoughts on “So much”

  1. they collectively threw the future of the league, and, ergo, their own personal financial futures up in the air.
    I think what the players have done is good. If only because there are some (a lot of?) people out there who pay vastly more attention to sports than to anything else outside their immediate environment. Something like this is the 2×4 up side the head which may, may, get their attention.
    But to say that the players are putting their own financial futures on the line is a bit of an overstatement. Except for any guys in their first couple of years playing professionally, most of these folks have more money already in hand than most of the rest of us will have in the bank when we retire. They may miss having the extra millions. But it’s not like they will be in poverty, even if their sport shuts down permanently.

  2. they collectively threw the future of the league, and, ergo, their own personal financial futures up in the air.
    I think what the players have done is good. If only because there are some (a lot of?) people out there who pay vastly more attention to sports than to anything else outside their immediate environment. Something like this is the 2×4 up side the head which may, may, get their attention.
    But to say that the players are putting their own financial futures on the line is a bit of an overstatement. Except for any guys in their first couple of years playing professionally, most of these folks have more money already in hand than most of the rest of us will have in the bank when we retire. They may miss having the extra millions. But it’s not like they will be in poverty, even if their sport shuts down permanently.

  3. I think professional sports will be the lunch counters of the age. All these huge media corporations and even conservative owners and coaches are over a barrel the moment that the players turn their minds to collective action. That’s a systempunkt with no workaround that doesn’t end up ringing completely hollow. Without the athletes the whole empire collapses.
    Now pardon me, I’m going to go hunt down the latest Shannon Sharpe clips, because I know that he’s going to lay this out straight with no fear.

  4. I think professional sports will be the lunch counters of the age. All these huge media corporations and even conservative owners and coaches are over a barrel the moment that the players turn their minds to collective action. That’s a systempunkt with no workaround that doesn’t end up ringing completely hollow. Without the athletes the whole empire collapses.
    Now pardon me, I’m going to go hunt down the latest Shannon Sharpe clips, because I know that he’s going to lay this out straight with no fear.

  5. I forgot to be a title, so the blog grabs the first two words. So much seems appropriate.
    The question of earning and futures is an interesting one, there’s a book called 40 Million Dollar Slaves by William Rhoden
    https://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/23/books/review/23goldstein.html
    I haven’t read the book but the reviews said that it was a great study on the history of black athletes in the US. I did see some interviews with the author and they often concentrated on the idea that black athletes had chosen to eschew social justice for a big payday, so I wonder what he would say of this.
    While I see your point, I think that this argument is a bit of a no win situation. Why do lower class people protest? Cause they have no money and just want to get more. Why do these athlete millionaires protest? Cause they got enough money that they don’t have to worry about their future?

  6. I forgot to be a title, so the blog grabs the first two words. So much seems appropriate.
    The question of earning and futures is an interesting one, there’s a book called 40 Million Dollar Slaves by William Rhoden
    https://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/23/books/review/23goldstein.html
    I haven’t read the book but the reviews said that it was a great study on the history of black athletes in the US. I did see some interviews with the author and they often concentrated on the idea that black athletes had chosen to eschew social justice for a big payday, so I wonder what he would say of this.
    While I see your point, I think that this argument is a bit of a no win situation. Why do lower class people protest? Cause they have no money and just want to get more. Why do these athlete millionaires protest? Cause they got enough money that they don’t have to worry about their future?

  7. Except for any guys in their first couple of years playing professionally, most of these folks have more money already in hand than most of the rest of us will have in the bank when we retire. They may miss having the extra millions. But it’s not like they will be in poverty, even if their sport shuts down permanently.
    True enough for the NBA. What impressed me, though, is how MLS has responded to this:
    https://sports.yahoo.com/compared-to-their-millionaire-nba-and-mlb-brethren-mls-players-boycott-comes-with-added-risks-202056686.html
    Starting pay for MLS player union is $56k.

  8. Except for any guys in their first couple of years playing professionally, most of these folks have more money already in hand than most of the rest of us will have in the bank when we retire. They may miss having the extra millions. But it’s not like they will be in poverty, even if their sport shuts down permanently.
    True enough for the NBA. What impressed me, though, is how MLS has responded to this:
    https://sports.yahoo.com/compared-to-their-millionaire-nba-and-mlb-brethren-mls-players-boycott-comes-with-added-risks-202056686.html
    Starting pay for MLS player union is $56k.

  9. I’m very impressed with the boycott/strike.
    If someone can articulate a set of steps that can move the country past this and achieve some universal agreement then the boycott will have been a huge part of that.
    Let me be clear, there is a difference between peaceful protest supporting policing reform and violent protest and assault. This seems like an effective way to use one of the most visible segments of society to rally support.
    I hope they don’t play any professional sports again until they force the Wisconsin legislature to create laws that everyone agrees will make a difference so those can be used as a blueprint across the country.

  10. I’m very impressed with the boycott/strike.
    If someone can articulate a set of steps that can move the country past this and achieve some universal agreement then the boycott will have been a huge part of that.
    Let me be clear, there is a difference between peaceful protest supporting policing reform and violent protest and assault. This seems like an effective way to use one of the most visible segments of society to rally support.
    I hope they don’t play any professional sports again until they force the Wisconsin legislature to create laws that everyone agrees will make a difference so those can be used as a blueprint across the country.

  11. I usually respond to Marty’s comments here by giving him a ration of crap, so allow me the pleasure of saying thumbs up, Marty.
    As well as all other comments here.
    I’m not remotely a sports guy, but I recognize the presence that sports has in our culture.
    So well done, Milwaukee.

  12. I usually respond to Marty’s comments here by giving him a ration of crap, so allow me the pleasure of saying thumbs up, Marty.
    As well as all other comments here.
    I’m not remotely a sports guy, but I recognize the presence that sports has in our culture.
    So well done, Milwaukee.

  13. I usually start comments to Marty with ‘I don’t want to pile on’, but this is one I’ll happily participate in. WRS²
    I was just in the middle of a long comment about the stats discussion in the previous thread which I will delete unsent and leave it to everyone’s imagination. Thanks from me as well Marty.

  14. I usually start comments to Marty with ‘I don’t want to pile on’, but this is one I’ll happily participate in. WRS²
    I was just in the middle of a long comment about the stats discussion in the previous thread which I will delete unsent and leave it to everyone’s imagination. Thanks from me as well Marty.

  17. Just to follow up on nous, the WNBA is amazing
    Overall, the average WNBA players make around $79,000 while the maximum salary caps at $117,500. The minimum player salary for players with three or more years of service is $56,375.
    https://www.blackenterprise.com/top-wnba-nba-salaries-2019/
    Furthermore, just before COVID, they negotiated an increase in salary and benefits
    https://nba.nbcsports.com/2020/01/14/new-wnba-cba-increases-average-salary-to-nearly-130k-maximum-salary-above-500k/
    Yet they have been in the forefront of protests.
    https://www.bbc.com/sport/av/basketball/53931644
    and have shown they put their money where there mouth is
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/04/sports/basketball/wnba-dream-loeffler-warnock.html

  18. Just to follow up on nous, the WNBA is amazing
    Overall, the average WNBA players make around $79,000 while the maximum salary caps at $117,500. The minimum player salary for players with three or more years of service is $56,375.
    https://www.blackenterprise.com/top-wnba-nba-salaries-2019/
    Furthermore, just before COVID, they negotiated an increase in salary and benefits
    https://nba.nbcsports.com/2020/01/14/new-wnba-cba-increases-average-salary-to-nearly-130k-maximum-salary-above-500k/
    Yet they have been in the forefront of protests.
    https://www.bbc.com/sport/av/basketball/53931644
    and have shown they put their money where there mouth is
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/04/sports/basketball/wnba-dream-loeffler-warnock.html

  19. Thanks to you all for the education on sports salaries. I confess I was fixated on sports like baseball (minimum salary ~$550K for major leaguers).

  20. Thanks to you all for the education on sports salaries. I confess I was fixated on sports like baseball (minimum salary ~$550K for major leaguers).

  21. At the moment I am not paying too much attention to professional sports except for having paid a bit of attention to Bayern Munich winning the UEFA Champions League and completing another treble, and following the Colorado Avalanche in the NHL playoffs. The NHL teams postponed two sets of playoff games by player choice in response to the Kenosha shooting. Conservative fans have been pushing back hard on social media. Of course they have been pushing back hard on pride night as well and any other inclusivity promotion, so that part is not new. But the league and the teams are standing firm in their commitment to fan diversity, and that means publicly supporting social justice and giving it the same level of promotion as military appreciation night, law enforcement appreciation night, teacher appreciation night, etc.
    The Avalanche are owned by Kroenke Enterprises, which means they fall under the umbrella of Sam Walton’s heirs. Which is interesting, verging on potentially hopeful at least as far as our corporate overlords are concerned.

  22. At the moment I am not paying too much attention to professional sports except for having paid a bit of attention to Bayern Munich winning the UEFA Champions League and completing another treble, and following the Colorado Avalanche in the NHL playoffs. The NHL teams postponed two sets of playoff games by player choice in response to the Kenosha shooting. Conservative fans have been pushing back hard on social media. Of course they have been pushing back hard on pride night as well and any other inclusivity promotion, so that part is not new. But the league and the teams are standing firm in their commitment to fan diversity, and that means publicly supporting social justice and giving it the same level of promotion as military appreciation night, law enforcement appreciation night, teacher appreciation night, etc.
    The Avalanche are owned by Kroenke Enterprises, which means they fall under the umbrella of Sam Walton’s heirs. Which is interesting, verging on potentially hopeful at least as far as our corporate overlords are concerned.

  27. The first problem that most normal people have with the protests is that in almost every case the dead black guy was a career violent criminal who was resisting arrest for yet another crime. And a few so-called killings weren’t. Floyd Brown died of a fentanyl overdose.
    The second problem is that the protests divert attention from the real problem, which is the mass killing of young black men by other young black men. FBI statistics show that over half of all the gun killings (including whites, hispanics, whatever) in the US are committed by young black men. Almost all the dead are black. The killers represent less than 1% of the whole population. That is your systemic racism.
    If Le Bron were serious about preventing the deaths of young black men, he would use his very great influence to do something about the black gangbangers who are terrorizing black communities. Police are not the problem.
    It is also important that the BLM movement has been captured by the rich, young, white radicals of Antifas. BLM is now controlled by them, and it serves their own purposes, which do not align with black needs.

  28. The first problem that most normal people have with the protests is that in almost every case the dead black guy was a career violent criminal who was resisting arrest for yet another crime. And a few so-called killings weren’t. Floyd Brown died of a fentanyl overdose.
    The second problem is that the protests divert attention from the real problem, which is the mass killing of young black men by other young black men. FBI statistics show that over half of all the gun killings (including whites, hispanics, whatever) in the US are committed by young black men. Almost all the dead are black. The killers represent less than 1% of the whole population. That is your systemic racism.
    If Le Bron were serious about preventing the deaths of young black men, he would use his very great influence to do something about the black gangbangers who are terrorizing black communities. Police are not the problem.
    It is also important that the BLM movement has been captured by the rich, young, white radicals of Antifas. BLM is now controlled by them, and it serves their own purposes, which do not align with black needs.

  33. in almost every case the dead black guy was a career violent criminal who was resisting arrest for yet another crime
    Not a strong opening.
    the real problem, which is the mass killing of young black men by other young black men
    That is your systemic racism.
    “Real” may not be the word you’re looking for here. “Statistically more common”, perhaps. “Happens more often, therefore is more deserving of our attention”.
    Something like that.
    So let’s give it some attention.
    Why do young black men kill each other in such diproportionate numbers?
    Perhaps there are some clues there for us about how race affects people’s lives.
    There’s more to say about how cops play into all of this than you are letting on here, IMO, but if you want to talk about young black men and homicide, it could bd a topic worth discussing.
    Feel free to give it a try. Bring a useful insight or two, and you might get some good conversation.

  34. in almost every case the dead black guy was a career violent criminal who was resisting arrest for yet another crime
    Not a strong opening.
    the real problem, which is the mass killing of young black men by other young black men
    That is your systemic racism.
    “Real” may not be the word you’re looking for here. “Statistically more common”, perhaps. “Happens more often, therefore is more deserving of our attention”.
    Something like that.
    So let’s give it some attention.
    Why do young black men kill each other in such diproportionate numbers?
    Perhaps there are some clues there for us about how race affects people’s lives.
    There’s more to say about how cops play into all of this than you are letting on here, IMO, but if you want to talk about young black men and homicide, it could bd a topic worth discussing.
    Feel free to give it a try. Bring a useful insight or two, and you might get some good conversation.

  35. Who is this Floyd Brown, for whom I have searched in vain? Do you mean George Floyd?

  36. Who is this Floyd Brown, for whom I have searched in vain? Do you mean George Floyd?

  37. The first problem that most normal people have with the protests
    And that bold’s a problem right there. Because obviously, to this commenter, “normal” means white. Because most black people, whether they are worried about the format of the protests or not, fully understand the reason for the protests, and it’s not because they think that ” in almost every case the dead black guy was a career violent criminal who was resisting arrest for yet another crime”.
    And what does the “so-called” mean in ” And a few so-called killings weren’t”?

  38. The first problem that most normal people have with the protests
    And that bold’s a problem right there. Because obviously, to this commenter, “normal” means white. Because most black people, whether they are worried about the format of the protests or not, fully understand the reason for the protests, and it’s not because they think that ” in almost every case the dead black guy was a career violent criminal who was resisting arrest for yet another crime”.
    And what does the “so-called” mean in ” And a few so-called killings weren’t”?

  39. If black people were allowed, without fear of punishment, to gun down white people who commit unjust racist acts, why the number of police killings of unarmed black men would decrease to zero overnight, and the overt white racism we observe might well be reduced significantly.
    Now some might argue this would be a social catastrophe, leading white people to live in fear for their lives. On the other hand, black people have pretty much lived with the opposite social policy for hundreds of years.
    Somehow they managed.

  40. If black people were allowed, without fear of punishment, to gun down white people who commit unjust racist acts, why the number of police killings of unarmed black men would decrease to zero overnight, and the overt white racism we observe might well be reduced significantly.
    Now some might argue this would be a social catastrophe, leading white people to live in fear for their lives. On the other hand, black people have pretty much lived with the opposite social policy for hundreds of years.
    Somehow they managed.

  41. And what does the “so-called” mean in ” And a few so-called killings weren’t”?
    it means bob here ain’t about to start believing no MSM lies about what them black folks do. he knows the truth!

  42. And what does the “so-called” mean in ” And a few so-called killings weren’t”?
    it means bob here ain’t about to start believing no MSM lies about what them black folks do. he knows the truth!

  43. If black people were allowed, without fear of punishment, to gun down white people who commit unjust racist acts, why the number of police killings of unarmed black men would decrease to zero overnight
    this is, precisely, the fundamental justification gun fondlers give for their guns: to present a counter to government tyranny.
    funny thing about tyranny, though. it’s almost always in the eye of the recipient, and never in the eye of the wielder.

  44. If black people were allowed, without fear of punishment, to gun down white people who commit unjust racist acts, why the number of police killings of unarmed black men would decrease to zero overnight
    this is, precisely, the fundamental justification gun fondlers give for their guns: to present a counter to government tyranny.
    funny thing about tyranny, though. it’s almost always in the eye of the recipient, and never in the eye of the wielder.

  45. funny thing about tyranny, though. it’s almost always in the eye of the recipient, and never in the eye of the wielder.
    This is worthy of being called “cleek’s law #2”

  46. funny thing about tyranny, though. it’s almost always in the eye of the recipient, and never in the eye of the wielder.
    This is worthy of being called “cleek’s law #2”

  47. Search is a wonderful thing
    Trump is by far the best President the US has had since Eisenhower, and maybe since Washington. His language is extreme, but truthful. The malodorous swamp in DC is slowly turning this country into a totalitarian socialist dictatorship.
    The Democrat Party is an association of Biblically evil monsters, and the criminally insane neocons are their allies. The endless, unwinnable, and illegal wars we are fighting everywhere are the result of neocon subversion of our government, especially the intelligence and law agencies. We have just seen an attempt at a coup d’etat by the FBI, DOJ, CIA, and NSA.
    Trump ran on a platform of ending those wars, and the neocons slapped him down. Considering her violent, war-mongering past, if the monster Hillary had won, we would undoubtedly be in the middle of WW III right now.
    In 2020, if you love your children, you will vote for Trump. If you vote Democrat, you will condemn to a life of poverty and oppression. If you are white, your children will suffer genocide.
    Posted by: bob sykes | August 02, 2019 at 09:06 AM
    https://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2019/08/its-august-2019-do-you-know-where-your-potus-is.html

  48. Search is a wonderful thing
    Trump is by far the best President the US has had since Eisenhower, and maybe since Washington. His language is extreme, but truthful. The malodorous swamp in DC is slowly turning this country into a totalitarian socialist dictatorship.
    The Democrat Party is an association of Biblically evil monsters, and the criminally insane neocons are their allies. The endless, unwinnable, and illegal wars we are fighting everywhere are the result of neocon subversion of our government, especially the intelligence and law agencies. We have just seen an attempt at a coup d’etat by the FBI, DOJ, CIA, and NSA.
    Trump ran on a platform of ending those wars, and the neocons slapped him down. Considering her violent, war-mongering past, if the monster Hillary had won, we would undoubtedly be in the middle of WW III right now.
    In 2020, if you love your children, you will vote for Trump. If you vote Democrat, you will condemn to a life of poverty and oppression. If you are white, your children will suffer genocide.
    Posted by: bob sykes | August 02, 2019 at 09:06 AM
    https://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2019/08/its-august-2019-do-you-know-where-your-potus-is.html

  49. My guess is that the storm surge pushed him out from under his bridge and into daylight.
    That or wandering bands of gruff, vigilante billy goats.

  50. My guess is that the storm surge pushed him out from under his bridge and into daylight.
    That or wandering bands of gruff, vigilante billy goats.

  51. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floyd_Brown
    He died of an overdose of Citizen’s United.
    Kneeling on his hung neck was merely breathing interruptus and a complication.
    But it saved a bullet.
    Looting and burning!:
    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-assault-on-social-security-is-under-way-2020-08-28?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
    Kenosha is a campfire compared to what’s coming.
    Bob Sykes:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4yp-XFGszw
    Even his dog hates him.

  52. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floyd_Brown
    He died of an overdose of Citizen’s United.
    Kneeling on his hung neck was merely breathing interruptus and a complication.
    But it saved a bullet.
    Looting and burning!:
    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-assault-on-social-security-is-under-way-2020-08-28?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
    Kenosha is a campfire compared to what’s coming.
    Bob Sykes:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4yp-XFGszw
    Even his dog hates him.

  53. I have a comment stuck in the hopper identifying Floyd Brown and Bob Sykes, and a criminal nationwide case of the looting and burning of America that is in the works.
    There might be two, but please only restore the second one, if you please. Thanks.

  54. I have a comment stuck in the hopper identifying Floyd Brown and Bob Sykes, and a criminal nationwide case of the looting and burning of America that is in the works.
    There might be two, but please only restore the second one, if you please. Thanks.

  55. Mr Sykes provides a handy example of why persuasion is difficult. If two people live in entirely different universes, there’s simply no way to reach agreement. Not even on the facts, let alone on the issues.

  56. Mr Sykes provides a handy example of why persuasion is difficult. If two people live in entirely different universes, there’s simply no way to reach agreement. Not even on the facts, let alone on the issues.

  57. statistically speaking.

    The Durham Police Department is investigating an incident last week in which several officers are accused of drawing their guns on three boys playing outside an east Durham apartment complex and handcuffing one of the boys.
    Fifteen-year-old Jaylin Harris and 9-year-old Zakarryya Cornelius said they were playing tag with an 11-year-old friend last Friday at the Rochelle Manor Apartments complex when the officers confronted them.
    “As soon as we come around the corner, we walk into five cops pointing guns at us saying, ‘Freeze!’ and ‘Get on the ground!'” Jaylin said. “So, we were just thinking, like, what did we do? We didn’t even do anything wrong.”
    “I was just terrified,” Zakarryya said.
    …
    “I’m like, ‘I hope I don’t die today,'” he added. “I didn’t make any wrong movements at that time or anything like that – Just outside playing tag and walked into guns pointed at me.”
    Zakarryya’s mother, Makeba Hoffler, said she saw the incident unfold and ran over with a 3-year-old in her arms to stop the officers.
    “Even as I proceeded to run toward the officer screaming, ‘They are kids,’ their guns were still drawn,” Hoffler said. “‘I’m going to die tonight.’ That’s what I was thinking because, like I said, I was not going to bury my son, and I was not going to bury none of these kids.”

    but you know, it would be wrong to treat black people like people because someone somewhere Marxism blahblahblah.

  58. statistically speaking.

    The Durham Police Department is investigating an incident last week in which several officers are accused of drawing their guns on three boys playing outside an east Durham apartment complex and handcuffing one of the boys.
    Fifteen-year-old Jaylin Harris and 9-year-old Zakarryya Cornelius said they were playing tag with an 11-year-old friend last Friday at the Rochelle Manor Apartments complex when the officers confronted them.
    “As soon as we come around the corner, we walk into five cops pointing guns at us saying, ‘Freeze!’ and ‘Get on the ground!'” Jaylin said. “So, we were just thinking, like, what did we do? We didn’t even do anything wrong.”
    “I was just terrified,” Zakarryya said.
    …
    “I’m like, ‘I hope I don’t die today,'” he added. “I didn’t make any wrong movements at that time or anything like that – Just outside playing tag and walked into guns pointed at me.”
    Zakarryya’s mother, Makeba Hoffler, said she saw the incident unfold and ran over with a 3-year-old in her arms to stop the officers.
    “Even as I proceeded to run toward the officer screaming, ‘They are kids,’ their guns were still drawn,” Hoffler said. “‘I’m going to die tonight.’ That’s what I was thinking because, like I said, I was not going to bury my son, and I was not going to bury none of these kids.”

    but you know, it would be wrong to treat black people like people because someone somewhere Marxism blahblahblah.

  61. I just released Thullen’s comment and noticed several. I think that they were rewritten and published, so I won’t take them out, but fair warning, random comments do go to spam. So that witty riposte or that observation that can’t wait may have to. If you find something not appearing, please let me know, but bear in mind the time difference and schedules.

  62. I just released Thullen’s comment and noticed several. I think that they were rewritten and published, so I won’t take them out, but fair warning, random comments do go to spam. So that witty riposte or that observation that can’t wait may have to. If you find something not appearing, please let me know, but bear in mind the time difference and schedules.

  67. If you find something not appearing, please let me know, but bear in mind the time difference and schedules.
    Sometimes I can catch them, too. (Indeed, I thought I’d freed Thullen’s comment.) And that gives us non-overlapping sleep schedules most of the time.

  68. If you find something not appearing, please let me know, but bear in mind the time difference and schedules.
    Sometimes I can catch them, too. (Indeed, I thought I’d freed Thullen’s comment.) And that gives us non-overlapping sleep schedules most of the time.

  69. Some of the comments in the spam folder will have been mine, when I forget to use GftNC when posting links. When it’s important enough to me, I redo them.

  70. Some of the comments in the spam folder will have been mine, when I forget to use GftNC when posting links. When it’s important enough to me, I redo them.

  73. For those who feel that blacks are not particularly targeted by police, I recommend this.
    https://www.economist.com/united-states/2020/08/22/americas-black-upper-class-and-black-lives-matter
    As it may be behind a paywall, let me offer up just the last paragraph

    Yet even the wealthiest align with street protesters in their fury over threats and harassment from police. Mr Knox [a wealthy Chicagoan who runs an international infrastructure-investment fund] is blunt about the risks any African-American man faces in public. Mr Graham [property lawyer from New York, and author of “Our Kind of People”, a sympathetic insider account of the habits, clubs and lifestyles of America’s wealthiest black families] recounts being stopped and hounded by a plainclothes policeman near his home, while collecting his daughter from school—even though he was the chairman of his county police board. He describes how rich black families, on moving into mostly white neighbourhoods, learn to visit local police stations to hand out photos of their families, in an effort to stave off trouble. “We have to be proactive,” he says. “It is absolutely demeaning to act in this way, but we have too many stories of what happens when you don’t. Don’t assume we’ve bought our way out of this treatment.”

    Can you imagine, even for an instant, a white man being stopped and hounded by a plainclothes policeman near his home, while collecting his daughter from school—even though he was the chairman of his county police board? Really? Can you imagine that?

  74. For those who feel that blacks are not particularly targeted by police, I recommend this.
    https://www.economist.com/united-states/2020/08/22/americas-black-upper-class-and-black-lives-matter
    As it may be behind a paywall, let me offer up just the last paragraph

    Yet even the wealthiest align with street protesters in their fury over threats and harassment from police. Mr Knox [a wealthy Chicagoan who runs an international infrastructure-investment fund] is blunt about the risks any African-American man faces in public. Mr Graham [property lawyer from New York, and author of “Our Kind of People”, a sympathetic insider account of the habits, clubs and lifestyles of America’s wealthiest black families] recounts being stopped and hounded by a plainclothes policeman near his home, while collecting his daughter from school—even though he was the chairman of his county police board. He describes how rich black families, on moving into mostly white neighbourhoods, learn to visit local police stations to hand out photos of their families, in an effort to stave off trouble. “We have to be proactive,” he says. “It is absolutely demeaning to act in this way, but we have too many stories of what happens when you don’t. Don’t assume we’ve bought our way out of this treatment.”

    Can you imagine, even for an instant, a white man being stopped and hounded by a plainclothes policeman near his home, while collecting his daughter from school—even though he was the chairman of his county police board? Really? Can you imagine that?

  77. Odd how Black Lives Matter is Marxist, but police forces around the country behave like Soviets and the Red Guard, or perhaps the early Brownshirts harassing wealthy Jews.
    Perhaps the problem is not completely Democratic governance in cities and towns around the country, but rather the fact that police forces have conservative republican white supremacist agendas and may even be aligning themselves with the Trump putsch against their own cities’ governments.
    To what future fascist nationalistic conservative movement payoff?
    We hear a lot of bullshit about how most mainstream journalists vote for Democrats.
    Anyone gotta fucking problem with the fact that most cops vote for republicans?
    Unless maybe it’s Chicago where police brutality has pretty much been a bipartisan way of life.

  78. Odd how Black Lives Matter is Marxist, but police forces around the country behave like Soviets and the Red Guard, or perhaps the early Brownshirts harassing wealthy Jews.
    Perhaps the problem is not completely Democratic governance in cities and towns around the country, but rather the fact that police forces have conservative republican white supremacist agendas and may even be aligning themselves with the Trump putsch against their own cities’ governments.
    To what future fascist nationalistic conservative movement payoff?
    We hear a lot of bullshit about how most mainstream journalists vote for Democrats.
    Anyone gotta fucking problem with the fact that most cops vote for republicans?
    Unless maybe it’s Chicago where police brutality has pretty much been a bipartisan way of life.

  79. “What does stopped and hounded mean? Then I will answer the question.”
    Post your personal info, Marty, and we’ll relay it to your local police with the note that you’re a notorious Black Block Marxist working undercover for BLM.
    Then you’ll find out.
    If the cops aren’t persecuting people because of a political/racist agenda, then you’d have nothing to worry about, right?

  80. “What does stopped and hounded mean? Then I will answer the question.”
    Post your personal info, Marty, and we’ll relay it to your local police with the note that you’re a notorious Black Block Marxist working undercover for BLM.
    Then you’ll find out.
    If the cops aren’t persecuting people because of a political/racist agenda, then you’d have nothing to worry about, right?

  81. Not just Marxist, but necessarily authoritarian and dictatorial by way of Marxism. If we’re biting the hook, let’s bite the whole thing.

  82. Not just Marxist, but necessarily authoritarian and dictatorial by way of Marxism. If we’re biting the hook, let’s bite the whole thing.

  83. Black people mostly shoot each other for the same reason white people mostly shoot each other: we tend to shoot the people near us (starting with ourselves; two-thirds of gun deaths are suicides and the NRA never had a damn thing to say about the risk or what to do about it), and since we’re a mostly segregated society, the people around us tend to be same ethnicity as us.
    (And at the risk of getting Thullen-esque, white Americans lead in committing incest, child pornography, and white-collar crime. There needs to be some viewing with concern over here.)
    I’m impressed as all get out by the sports strikers. As I understand it, a lot of the dancing around about “boycotts” and such is that many leagues have no-strike provisions in their contracts. If management committed to calling them strikers, they’d be firing the bunch immediately, and they don’t actually want to do that right now. Expect euphemisms strong enough to earn their own names from the National Weather Service.

  84. Black people mostly shoot each other for the same reason white people mostly shoot each other: we tend to shoot the people near us (starting with ourselves; two-thirds of gun deaths are suicides and the NRA never had a damn thing to say about the risk or what to do about it), and since we’re a mostly segregated society, the people around us tend to be same ethnicity as us.
    (And at the risk of getting Thullen-esque, white Americans lead in committing incest, child pornography, and white-collar crime. There needs to be some viewing with concern over here.)
    I’m impressed as all get out by the sports strikers. As I understand it, a lot of the dancing around about “boycotts” and such is that many leagues have no-strike provisions in their contracts. If management committed to calling them strikers, they’d be firing the bunch immediately, and they don’t actually want to do that right now. Expect euphemisms strong enough to earn their own names from the National Weather Service.

  85. Hounded means stuff along these lines, I guess…?
    The Police Are Pretty Sure They’re Going to Get Away With It
    https://newrepublic.com/article/159142/portsmouth-virginia-police-louise-lucas-lisa-lucas-burke
    … In June, protesters beheaded a few Confederate statues in Portsmouth and tore down another, which landed on and injured a demonstrator. Several months later, Portsmouth police, taking advantage of Virginia’s magistrate system, which bypasses elected prosecutors in these decisions, charged various local civil rights leaders, public defenders, and the president pro tempore of the Virginia Senate, Louise Lucas, with felony charges of conspiracy to injure a monument.
    Lucas had left the scene hours before any of the statues were harmed. The charges seemed timed to interrupt a Virginia Senate special session to debate new police reform legislation. The local prosecutor was bypassed, perhaps on account of her reformist tendencies. The police named her a possible witness, in what appeared to be an attempt to remove her from the process entirely….

  86. Hounded means stuff along these lines, I guess…?
    The Police Are Pretty Sure They’re Going to Get Away With It
    https://newrepublic.com/article/159142/portsmouth-virginia-police-louise-lucas-lisa-lucas-burke
    … In June, protesters beheaded a few Confederate statues in Portsmouth and tore down another, which landed on and injured a demonstrator. Several months later, Portsmouth police, taking advantage of Virginia’s magistrate system, which bypasses elected prosecutors in these decisions, charged various local civil rights leaders, public defenders, and the president pro tempore of the Virginia Senate, Louise Lucas, with felony charges of conspiracy to injure a monument.
    Lucas had left the scene hours before any of the statues were harmed. The charges seemed timed to interrupt a Virginia Senate special session to debate new police reform legislation. The local prosecutor was bypassed, perhaps on account of her reformist tendencies. The police named her a possible witness, in what appeared to be an attempt to remove her from the process entirely….

  87. What does stopped and hounded mean? Then I will answer the question.
    the hell you think it means?
    i assure you zero white police board members are experience anything that could be defined as “stopped and hounded”.

  88. What does stopped and hounded mean? Then I will answer the question.
    the hell you think it means?
    i assure you zero white police board members are experience anything that could be defined as “stopped and hounded”.

  89. Hounded could mean something like this
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/28/jacob-blake-shackled-to-hospital-bed-father-says
    Jacob Blake, the 29-year-old who was shot seven times by a Kenosha, Wisconsin, police officer on Sunday, has spent the week shackled to his hospital bed despite being unable to walk and being heavily medicated, his father revealed on Friday.
    “There was the cold steel on his ankle. He is shackled to the bed, but he cannot get up, he could not get up, he is paralyzed,” Jacob Blake Sr, father of Jacob Blake Jr, told CNN, describing a hospital visit with his son two days ago.
    Shackling someone who is paralyzed from the waist down seems like a definition of hounding.
    In case you want other links, here you go
    https://www.themarshallproject.org/records/1819-driving-while-black
    I recommend this story from there
    https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/07/22/what-you-may-have-missed-in-the-sandra-bland-video
    Here’s National Geographic (!)
    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2018/04/the-stop-race-police-traffic/
    https://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/janfeb-2014/driving-while-black/
    https://www.pbs.org/black-culture/connect/talk-back/10_rules_of_survival_if_stopped_by_police/
    The ACLU, which may be too Marxist for some.
    https://www.aclu.org/report/driving-while-black-racial-profiling-our-nations-highways
    In that one, hounding is hounding
    On a hot summer afternoon in August 1998, 37-year-old U.S. Army Sergeant First Class Rossano V. Gerald and his young son Gregory drove across the Oklahoma border into a nightmare. A career soldier and a highly decorated veteran of Desert Storm and Operation United Shield in Somalia, SFC Gerald, a black man of Panamanian descent, found that he could not travel more than 30 minutes through the state without being stopped twice: first by the Roland City Police Department, and then by the Oklahoma Highway Patrol.
    During the second stop, which lasted two-and-half hours, the troopers terrorized SFC Gerald’s 12-year-old son with a police dog, placed both father and son in a closed car with the air conditioning off and fans blowing hot air, and warned that the dog would attack if they attempted to escape. Halfway through the episode – perhaps realizing the extent of their lawlessness – the troopers shut off the patrol car’s video evidence camera.
    And actual research!
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047235207000189
    It is therefore important to note that even with the tentative solutions in place and even when viewed through the lens of data collected almost forty years ago, evidence of race-based disproportionality in vehicle stops by police remains.
    The paper is behind a paywall, but if anyone is interested in reading it, let me know and I can send a copy to the email address you list in the comments.
    The paper also notes that vehicle stops are not always recorded by police, so there may be a number of stops that research cannot see. This does seem like a textbook definition of hounding.
    Now ask yourself, do you cast your lot with the Bob Sykes of the world?

  90. Hounded could mean something like this
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/28/jacob-blake-shackled-to-hospital-bed-father-says
    Jacob Blake, the 29-year-old who was shot seven times by a Kenosha, Wisconsin, police officer on Sunday, has spent the week shackled to his hospital bed despite being unable to walk and being heavily medicated, his father revealed on Friday.
    “There was the cold steel on his ankle. He is shackled to the bed, but he cannot get up, he could not get up, he is paralyzed,” Jacob Blake Sr, father of Jacob Blake Jr, told CNN, describing a hospital visit with his son two days ago.
    Shackling someone who is paralyzed from the waist down seems like a definition of hounding.
    In case you want other links, here you go
    https://www.themarshallproject.org/records/1819-driving-while-black
    I recommend this story from there
    https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/07/22/what-you-may-have-missed-in-the-sandra-bland-video
    Here’s National Geographic (!)
    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2018/04/the-stop-race-police-traffic/
    https://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/janfeb-2014/driving-while-black/
    https://www.pbs.org/black-culture/connect/talk-back/10_rules_of_survival_if_stopped_by_police/
    The ACLU, which may be too Marxist for some.
    https://www.aclu.org/report/driving-while-black-racial-profiling-our-nations-highways
    In that one, hounding is hounding
    On a hot summer afternoon in August 1998, 37-year-old U.S. Army Sergeant First Class Rossano V. Gerald and his young son Gregory drove across the Oklahoma border into a nightmare. A career soldier and a highly decorated veteran of Desert Storm and Operation United Shield in Somalia, SFC Gerald, a black man of Panamanian descent, found that he could not travel more than 30 minutes through the state without being stopped twice: first by the Roland City Police Department, and then by the Oklahoma Highway Patrol.
    During the second stop, which lasted two-and-half hours, the troopers terrorized SFC Gerald’s 12-year-old son with a police dog, placed both father and son in a closed car with the air conditioning off and fans blowing hot air, and warned that the dog would attack if they attempted to escape. Halfway through the episode – perhaps realizing the extent of their lawlessness – the troopers shut off the patrol car’s video evidence camera.
    And actual research!
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047235207000189
    It is therefore important to note that even with the tentative solutions in place and even when viewed through the lens of data collected almost forty years ago, evidence of race-based disproportionality in vehicle stops by police remains.
    The paper is behind a paywall, but if anyone is interested in reading it, let me know and I can send a copy to the email address you list in the comments.
    The paper also notes that vehicle stops are not always recorded by police, so there may be a number of stops that research cannot see. This does seem like a textbook definition of hounding.
    Now ask yourself, do you cast your lot with the Bob Sykes of the world?

  95. Stopped means stopped. You were driving, a cop pulled you over.
    Hounded generally means being subject to any of a variety of intrusive procedures that are not justified by any aspect of your behavior.
    Leave the vehicle, body search, search the vehicle, lay on the ground with hands over head whild search the vehicle, all with or without threat of force.

  96. Stopped means stopped. You were driving, a cop pulled you over.
    Hounded generally means being subject to any of a variety of intrusive procedures that are not justified by any aspect of your behavior.
    Leave the vehicle, body search, search the vehicle, lay on the ground with hands over head whild search the vehicle, all with or without threat of force.

  97. In my opinion, hounded also means frequently being stopped, for no apparent reason. I gather we (the UK) are not alone in having a satirical offense “driving while black”. For the avoidance of doubt, neither I, nor anybody white I know, has ever been stopped while driving for no apparent reason. I believe this is a very frequent experience for black drivers, here and in the US, even more frequent if the black person is driving an expensive car.

  98. In my opinion, hounded also means frequently being stopped, for no apparent reason. I gather we (the UK) are not alone in having a satirical offense “driving while black”. For the avoidance of doubt, neither I, nor anybody white I know, has ever been stopped while driving for no apparent reason. I believe this is a very frequent experience for black drivers, here and in the US, even more frequent if the black person is driving an expensive car.

  99. Ahmir “Questlove” Thompson talks about police stops.
    Thompson is an extremely successful, multiple Grammy winning musician and producer. He produced the “Hamilton” cast album, among a long resume of other achievements as a producer. He is an outstanding drummer, a founding member of the Roots, and appears as a sideman on about a million recordings. He teaches at NYU. He works in hip-hop and R&B, but does not in any way espouse, embody, or project angry “gangsta” bullshit. He’s on TV every night, as part (and leader) of the house band on Jimmy Fallon’s TV show.
    He is a responsible, hard-working, productive, engaged human and American citizen.
    He quit driving for many years because he was disturbed by the experience of being pulled over and hassled by cops at gunpoint when he was a kid.
    During that time he’d use a driver, and cops would pull his car over and comment about how he was sitting in the back “like a don”.
    When he got a car again, he got a Scion Xb. Intentionally. He wanted to get the most un-threatening, inoffensive car he could find. Cops pulled him over and told him it looked like he “stole some college kid’s car”.
    So, stuff like that.
    I’ve said here, repeatedly, that black people are treated differently than other people, and not to their advantage. Conservatives here seem to find this impossible to believe or accept, for some reason. Which astounds me.
    What country are you living in?
    Black people in the United States are treated differently than other people, and not to their advantage. They keep trying to tell us this, and keep asking us to cut it out, but it continues and continues and continues and continues.
    And continues.
    The proper role of police is to protect and serve the public. Ensure safety, enforce the law, maintain public order.
    It’s not clear to me how hassling people furthers those goals.
    I’m not a blame the cops person, and I’m not an “all cops are bad” person. Not even close.
    But policing needs a freaking reset.

  100. Ahmir “Questlove” Thompson talks about police stops.
    Thompson is an extremely successful, multiple Grammy winning musician and producer. He produced the “Hamilton” cast album, among a long resume of other achievements as a producer. He is an outstanding drummer, a founding member of the Roots, and appears as a sideman on about a million recordings. He teaches at NYU. He works in hip-hop and R&B, but does not in any way espouse, embody, or project angry “gangsta” bullshit. He’s on TV every night, as part (and leader) of the house band on Jimmy Fallon’s TV show.
    He is a responsible, hard-working, productive, engaged human and American citizen.
    He quit driving for many years because he was disturbed by the experience of being pulled over and hassled by cops at gunpoint when he was a kid.
    During that time he’d use a driver, and cops would pull his car over and comment about how he was sitting in the back “like a don”.
    When he got a car again, he got a Scion Xb. Intentionally. He wanted to get the most un-threatening, inoffensive car he could find. Cops pulled him over and told him it looked like he “stole some college kid’s car”.
    So, stuff like that.
    I’ve said here, repeatedly, that black people are treated differently than other people, and not to their advantage. Conservatives here seem to find this impossible to believe or accept, for some reason. Which astounds me.
    What country are you living in?
    Black people in the United States are treated differently than other people, and not to their advantage. They keep trying to tell us this, and keep asking us to cut it out, but it continues and continues and continues and continues.
    And continues.
    The proper role of police is to protect and serve the public. Ensure safety, enforce the law, maintain public order.
    It’s not clear to me how hassling people furthers those goals.
    I’m not a blame the cops person, and I’m not an “all cops are bad” person. Not even close.
    But policing needs a freaking reset.

  101. That SI story from Colorado State does not surprise me in the least. The whole Front Range is a strange contact zone between universities (Laramie, Fort Collins, Boulder, Colorado Springs) and deeply conservative cultures (ranching in the north, military in the south, radicalized evangelicals and libertarian fetishists throughout).
    The libertarian streak is the only thing keeping the whole place from more open violence. I think of it as The Pot Peace.

  102. That SI story from Colorado State does not surprise me in the least. The whole Front Range is a strange contact zone between universities (Laramie, Fort Collins, Boulder, Colorado Springs) and deeply conservative cultures (ranching in the north, military in the south, radicalized evangelicals and libertarian fetishists throughout).
    The libertarian streak is the only thing keeping the whole place from more open violence. I think of it as The Pot Peace.

  103. That very recent Questlove piece illustrates the problem perfectly. But I followed one of the links, to a satirical bit from John Oliver on the Daily Show in 2013, which made me laugh (while being perfectly relevant):

    “If anything, stop-and-frisk doesn’t go far enough,” asserted Williams, who claimed to be reporting from “one of New York’s most crime-ridden neighborhoods.”
    No, she wasn’t in East New York or Hunts Point, but rather Wall Street – or, as she called it, “The White Bronx” or “Business Harlem.”
    “Frankly, John, I don’t feel safe here. And I would like to see the police do their freaking jobs and start stopping people down here,” she said angrily.
    Oliver countered that Williams was unfairly calling for “the arbitrary harassment of anyone on Wall Street.”
    But she clarified she was only targeting people likely to be white-collar criminals: “You know, walking around in tailored suits, slicked-back hair, always need sunscreen, if you know what I’m saying.”
    “If you don’t want to be associated with white-collar crime, maybe you shouldn’t dress that way,” she added. “It’s OK, I can say that. Some of my best friends are white men in suits.”
    As a white man in a suit, Oliver objected to the negative stereotyping of his demographic, but Williams stuck to her assertion that “white-collar crime is disproportionately committed by people who fit a certain profile.”
    “If you are, say, a white, Upper East Side billionaire with ties to the financial community like Michael Bloomberg, you just gotta accept getting roughed up by the police every once in a while,” Williams concluded.

  104. That very recent Questlove piece illustrates the problem perfectly. But I followed one of the links, to a satirical bit from John Oliver on the Daily Show in 2013, which made me laugh (while being perfectly relevant):

    “If anything, stop-and-frisk doesn’t go far enough,” asserted Williams, who claimed to be reporting from “one of New York’s most crime-ridden neighborhoods.”
    No, she wasn’t in East New York or Hunts Point, but rather Wall Street – or, as she called it, “The White Bronx” or “Business Harlem.”
    “Frankly, John, I don’t feel safe here. And I would like to see the police do their freaking jobs and start stopping people down here,” she said angrily.
    Oliver countered that Williams was unfairly calling for “the arbitrary harassment of anyone on Wall Street.”
    But she clarified she was only targeting people likely to be white-collar criminals: “You know, walking around in tailored suits, slicked-back hair, always need sunscreen, if you know what I’m saying.”
    “If you don’t want to be associated with white-collar crime, maybe you shouldn’t dress that way,” she added. “It’s OK, I can say that. Some of my best friends are white men in suits.”
    As a white man in a suit, Oliver objected to the negative stereotyping of his demographic, but Williams stuck to her assertion that “white-collar crime is disproportionately committed by people who fit a certain profile.”
    “If you are, say, a white, Upper East Side billionaire with ties to the financial community like Michael Bloomberg, you just gotta accept getting roughed up by the police every once in a while,” Williams concluded.

  105. Conservatives here seem to find this impossible to believe or accept, for some reason. Which astounds me.
    i expect nothing better from them, at this point.
    they need to be routed around, rather than fixed.

  106. Conservatives here seem to find this impossible to believe or accept, for some reason. Which astounds me.
    i expect nothing better from them, at this point.
    they need to be routed around, rather than fixed.

  109. We have our fair share of crackpots. A bit more politically diverse maybe*. Our main advantage is that we lack the gun fetish and there is no outcry when the police goes in and confiscates the illegal arsenals of RW extremists and/or organized crime. And although our police has a bad rep (not completely undeserved), it’s not for excessive use of firearms.
    We are a bit behind the curve on (politically active) RW extremism but, unfortunately, we seem to be closing the gap in that regard. It has to be said that we would be in a better situation, if there was no significant support from extremists in the US and (more recently) Putin’s Russia.
    It’s telling that the RW part of yesterday’s demonstration made a stop in front of the Russian embassy to hail Putin.
    *a famous author of vegan cookbooks is among the ringleaders.

  110. We have our fair share of crackpots. A bit more politically diverse maybe*. Our main advantage is that we lack the gun fetish and there is no outcry when the police goes in and confiscates the illegal arsenals of RW extremists and/or organized crime. And although our police has a bad rep (not completely undeserved), it’s not for excessive use of firearms.
    We are a bit behind the curve on (politically active) RW extremism but, unfortunately, we seem to be closing the gap in that regard. It has to be said that we would be in a better situation, if there was no significant support from extremists in the US and (more recently) Putin’s Russia.
    It’s telling that the RW part of yesterday’s demonstration made a stop in front of the Russian embassy to hail Putin.
    *a famous author of vegan cookbooks is among the ringleaders.

  111. “a famous author of vegan cookbooks is among the ringleaders.”
    I really wish those damned Vegans would just go back to Vega and leave us alone.
    And yes, I’m Sirius about this.

  112. “a famous author of vegan cookbooks is among the ringleaders.”
    I really wish those damned Vegans would just go back to Vega and leave us alone.
    And yes, I’m Sirius about this.

  113. They can’t (despite their Yes Vegan motto) since precession has not progressed far enough to make Vega the polestar again. Their monodirectional launchpad accelerators are installed along the Earth axis inside the hollow Earth (with outlets at the poles only).
    Maybe we can persuade them to go to Las Vegans in the meantime to spend a few wooden nickels.

  114. They can’t (despite their Yes Vegan motto) since precession has not progressed far enough to make Vega the polestar again. Their monodirectional launchpad accelerators are installed along the Earth axis inside the hollow Earth (with outlets at the poles only).
    Maybe we can persuade them to go to Las Vegans in the meantime to spend a few wooden nickels.

  115. Their monodirectional launchpad accelerators are installed along the Earth axis inside the hollow Earth (with outlets at the poles only).
    Ah, ha! That’s why they’re so big on global warming — to clear the barrel so they can fire themselves off to their next victim.

  116. Their monodirectional launchpad accelerators are installed along the Earth axis inside the hollow Earth (with outlets at the poles only).
    Ah, ha! That’s why they’re so big on global warming — to clear the barrel so they can fire themselves off to their next victim.

  117. Marty, I’m not really wanting to write this comment, but I have to note that it has been two days (not sure how the timestamps are in terms of timezone) since you asked
    What does stopped and hounded mean? Then I will answer the question.
    I’m wondering if my last line in my 5:51 PM comment was over the top. Bob Sykes, who seems to be an old white guy with a lot of time on his hands, pops over here every 6 months or so, post comments like that and leave. I hope that my last line doesn’t end up having you behave in the same way as he does.
    If my last line made you feel bad, my apologies, it was not intended to.

  118. Marty, I’m not really wanting to write this comment, but I have to note that it has been two days (not sure how the timestamps are in terms of timezone) since you asked
    What does stopped and hounded mean? Then I will answer the question.
    I’m wondering if my last line in my 5:51 PM comment was over the top. Bob Sykes, who seems to be an old white guy with a lot of time on his hands, pops over here every 6 months or so, post comments like that and leave. I hope that my last line doesn’t end up having you behave in the same way as he does.
    If my last line made you feel bad, my apologies, it was not intended to.

  119. lj,
    I’m thinking none of the examples provided applied to the guy referenced. I have been pulled over and “hounded” so it matters what that means. A 1998 harassment of a guy and his daughter for 2.5 hours is awful, but not close to a regular occurrence.
    russell has said I dont accept that black people are treated differently, that’s not quite correct. I pointed out the statistics to question whether black people are treated differently systemically.
    But actually I find the discussion requires more nuance than I believe can be achieved here. Over my lifetime there have been lots of new laws on civil rights, and lots of back and forth on policing.
    The conversation has turned to, as most things today, you believe blacks are systemically mistreated or its the black peoples fault.
    I think the answer is that there are enough anecdotal data points to support the conclusion that there is widespread individual racist profiling incidents among the 700000 law enforcement individuals in this country. These are intermixed with a very small number of deaths that are mostly more questionable than criminal to create a narrative that is fed to black children to create mostly misplaced fear of police generally.
    This ultimately creates an atmosphere where every traffic stop is frightening and every interaction with police is considered unwarranted and racially based. Conversely the high percentage of violent crimes concentrated in the black community creates a higher level of fear among law enforcement professionals when engaged with calls in those communities.
    Shorter me, you don’t legislate that mutual fear out of existence. So the solutions are being looked for in the wrong place.
    We have gotten to the place where there is much wider acceptance of the police part in these issues, we need a willing partner in the black community to deescalate the tensions on a broader basis.
    In the meantime. police violence in general should be looked at, but that only helps if it is reduced across the board. It can’t be racially targeted, that level of nuance in the way police function is impossible to standardize.
    But, I suspect a torrent of criticism and name calling on these points which I certainly will not be willing to engage with.

  120. lj,
    I’m thinking none of the examples provided applied to the guy referenced. I have been pulled over and “hounded” so it matters what that means. A 1998 harassment of a guy and his daughter for 2.5 hours is awful, but not close to a regular occurrence.
    russell has said I dont accept that black people are treated differently, that’s not quite correct. I pointed out the statistics to question whether black people are treated differently systemically.
    But actually I find the discussion requires more nuance than I believe can be achieved here. Over my lifetime there have been lots of new laws on civil rights, and lots of back and forth on policing.
    The conversation has turned to, as most things today, you believe blacks are systemically mistreated or its the black peoples fault.
    I think the answer is that there are enough anecdotal data points to support the conclusion that there is widespread individual racist profiling incidents among the 700000 law enforcement individuals in this country. These are intermixed with a very small number of deaths that are mostly more questionable than criminal to create a narrative that is fed to black children to create mostly misplaced fear of police generally.
    This ultimately creates an atmosphere where every traffic stop is frightening and every interaction with police is considered unwarranted and racially based. Conversely the high percentage of violent crimes concentrated in the black community creates a higher level of fear among law enforcement professionals when engaged with calls in those communities.
    Shorter me, you don’t legislate that mutual fear out of existence. So the solutions are being looked for in the wrong place.
    We have gotten to the place where there is much wider acceptance of the police part in these issues, we need a willing partner in the black community to deescalate the tensions on a broader basis.
    In the meantime. police violence in general should be looked at, but that only helps if it is reduced across the board. It can’t be racially targeted, that level of nuance in the way police function is impossible to standardize.
    But, I suspect a torrent of criticism and name calling on these points which I certainly will not be willing to engage with.

  121. hey Marty –
    Thanks for your thoughtful reply here. I always appreciate the things you have to say when you go for the long form, although I understand that it’s not always convenient.
    Regarding this:
    I pointed out the statistics to question whether black people are treated differently systemically.
    I’m never clear on what is meant by “systematic”. So I’m not sure what to say about this.
    What I observe is that black people being treated differently happens a hell of a lot, across all kinds of other social categories (wealth, geography, etc.).
    By “a hell of a lot” I mean it’s more or less ubiquitous. Not that everybody does it, but that somebody or other is probably doing it, anywhere you want to go.
    This, I think, is a potentially fruitful point for discussion:
    So the solutions are being looked for in the wrong place.
    This part I’m less persuaded by:
    It can’t be racially targeted, that level of nuance in the way police function is impossible to standardize.
    If there are policing policies that single out people of color (and there are, and have been), then it seems like policing reforms that are racially targeted are not out of the question.

  122. hey Marty –
    Thanks for your thoughtful reply here. I always appreciate the things you have to say when you go for the long form, although I understand that it’s not always convenient.
    Regarding this:
    I pointed out the statistics to question whether black people are treated differently systemically.
    I’m never clear on what is meant by “systematic”. So I’m not sure what to say about this.
    What I observe is that black people being treated differently happens a hell of a lot, across all kinds of other social categories (wealth, geography, etc.).
    By “a hell of a lot” I mean it’s more or less ubiquitous. Not that everybody does it, but that somebody or other is probably doing it, anywhere you want to go.
    This, I think, is a potentially fruitful point for discussion:
    So the solutions are being looked for in the wrong place.
    This part I’m less persuaded by:
    It can’t be racially targeted, that level of nuance in the way police function is impossible to standardize.
    If there are policing policies that single out people of color (and there are, and have been), then it seems like policing reforms that are racially targeted are not out of the question.

  123. My understanding russell is there are, at this point, very few if any policing policies that differentiate levels of violence acceptable based on race. So, to reduce violence across the board should be the goal.
    If anyone finds an actual policy approving higher levels of violence against blacks, or greater latitude in deciding based on race then they should simply be publicized and revoked.

  124. My understanding russell is there are, at this point, very few if any policing policies that differentiate levels of violence acceptable based on race. So, to reduce violence across the board should be the goal.
    If anyone finds an actual policy approving higher levels of violence against blacks, or greater latitude in deciding based on race then they should simply be publicized and revoked.

  125. “These are intermixed with a very small number of deaths that are mostly more questionable than criminal to create a narrative that is fed to black children to create mostly misplaced fear of police generally.”
    “But, I suspect a torrent of criticism and name calling on these points which I certainly will not be willing to engage with.”
    I’ll accept this juxtaposition as acknowledgment that commenting at OBWI is not unlike a series of abusive traffic stops for black citizens across the country and/or any number of abusive trump tweets aimed at the Other, for which you have empathy for the victims.

  126. “These are intermixed with a very small number of deaths that are mostly more questionable than criminal to create a narrative that is fed to black children to create mostly misplaced fear of police generally.”
    “But, I suspect a torrent of criticism and name calling on these points which I certainly will not be willing to engage with.”
    I’ll accept this juxtaposition as acknowledgment that commenting at OBWI is not unlike a series of abusive traffic stops for black citizens across the country and/or any number of abusive trump tweets aimed at the Other, for which you have empathy for the victims.

  127. there are, at this point, very few if any policing policies that differentiate levels of violence acceptable based on race.
    I’m thinking not so much of policies that differentiate levels of violence by race, but polices that single out particular races for policing in general.
    Bloomberg’s profiling program is an example.

  128. there are, at this point, very few if any policing policies that differentiate levels of violence acceptable based on race.
    I’m thinking not so much of policies that differentiate levels of violence by race, but polices that single out particular races for policing in general.
    Bloomberg’s profiling program is an example.

  138. Well, since Trump has a Top Secret clearance, how much more damage could Kushner do?
    Answer, perhaps, unlike Trump, he actually reads. If so, he would know more stuff he could pass along / spill.

  140. Well, since Trump has a Top Secret clearance, how much more damage could Kushner do?
    Answer, perhaps, unlike Trump, he actually reads. If so, he would know more stuff he could pass along / spill.

  143. Thoughtful article about the background to the Rittenhouse shooting, and an illustration of how reality gets distorted.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/08/kyle-rittenhouse-kenosha-and-sheepdog-mentality/615805/
    … But the videos themselves are insidious. Most people in the United States, allowing for wild variation in race, class, and education, are victims of violence only very rarely. Watching the videos, however, invites you to simulate violence at an extraordinary rate, much higher than we are mentally equipped to manage. (Correia himself has seen tens of thousands of them, and he posts a new one to his channel about once or twice a day.) The effect of these videos is to habituate viewers to that violence, to train them to imagine themselves in it. Training yourself to imagine something makes it seem more likely to happen, and primes your instincts to react to it—and, I suspect, initiate that violent reaction and overdo it when circumstances could be resolved more peacefully…

  144. Thoughtful article about the background to the Rittenhouse shooting, and an illustration of how reality gets distorted.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/08/kyle-rittenhouse-kenosha-and-sheepdog-mentality/615805/
    … But the videos themselves are insidious. Most people in the United States, allowing for wild variation in race, class, and education, are victims of violence only very rarely. Watching the videos, however, invites you to simulate violence at an extraordinary rate, much higher than we are mentally equipped to manage. (Correia himself has seen tens of thousands of them, and he posts a new one to his channel about once or twice a day.) The effect of these videos is to habituate viewers to that violence, to train them to imagine themselves in it. Training yourself to imagine something makes it seem more likely to happen, and primes your instincts to react to it—and, I suspect, initiate that violent reaction and overdo it when circumstances could be resolved more peacefully…

  145. like russell, I appreciate the longer form. I don’t know what the fbi line serves to show and I’m not sure what sort of evidence would be needed to have you change your mind about this, the examples in the aclu link seem to me to be exactly what you express has happening to you, which also gives background in how this all arose. Just because it happened to you doesn’t negate the fact that it seems to anecdotally happen to African Americans much more often.
    Shorter me, you don’t legislate that mutual fear out of existence. So the solutions are being looked for in the wrong place.
    However, you do prevent poor behavior (and I hope you’d agree that stories like those listed in the aclu link are cops behaving badly) by making the general populace turn against it. If cops were forced to be on better behavior for African Americans, do you believe the cops would then take it out on others? I don’t things work that way. A general distaste for that sort of behavior, rather than an assumption that African-Americans represent a criminal element, would be a step in the right direction.

  146. like russell, I appreciate the longer form. I don’t know what the fbi line serves to show and I’m not sure what sort of evidence would be needed to have you change your mind about this, the examples in the aclu link seem to me to be exactly what you express has happening to you, which also gives background in how this all arose. Just because it happened to you doesn’t negate the fact that it seems to anecdotally happen to African Americans much more often.
    Shorter me, you don’t legislate that mutual fear out of existence. So the solutions are being looked for in the wrong place.
    However, you do prevent poor behavior (and I hope you’d agree that stories like those listed in the aclu link are cops behaving badly) by making the general populace turn against it. If cops were forced to be on better behavior for African Americans, do you believe the cops would then take it out on others? I don’t things work that way. A general distaste for that sort of behavior, rather than an assumption that African-Americans represent a criminal element, would be a step in the right direction.

  147. Stop broken windows policing. Legalize marijuana. Stop pulling people over for windshield cracks, broken tail lights, and the like and just send notice for those things in the mail. Take away the constant need to find pretexts to stop and search and frisk to drive up arrest metrics and make the department look proactive. If those things go away, so will many of these killings. Also, crime rates will drop in black neighborhoods and the narrative of black criminality will start to fade.

  148. Stop broken windows policing. Legalize marijuana. Stop pulling people over for windshield cracks, broken tail lights, and the like and just send notice for those things in the mail. Take away the constant need to find pretexts to stop and search and frisk to drive up arrest metrics and make the department look proactive. If those things go away, so will many of these killings. Also, crime rates will drop in black neighborhoods and the narrative of black criminality will start to fade.

  151. the high percentage of violent crimes concentrated in the black community creates a higher level of fear among law enforcement professionals
    I want to push back on this.
    Black vs white, or poor vs not poor?
    And if poor vs not poor, why are black people disproportionately poor?
    The above is for *non-fatal* violent crime, and so does not address disproportions in the murder rate.
    The actual number of policemen killed in the line of duty in the US is surprisingly (to me, anyway) low. Not to dismiss the risk of policing, but does the actual risk support the idea of a higher level of fear among cops working in black neighborhoods vs white neighborhoods with similar socio-economic profiles?
    The general direction of your comment above seems to be that the perception within the black community that they are treated unfairly by police is out of proportion to the statistical reality.
    That may be so. I don’t know if the statistical unlikelihood is, or should be, sufficient to dispel a sense of being targeted, but let’s say that the perception of risk is greater than the actual risk.
    I’ll also stipulate your sense that cops have a greater fear of harm working in black communities than in white ones. I don’t know if that’s so, but I’ll stipulate it for the sake of this discussion.
    What do we do to walk that back? I mean both sides of this – black people’s perception that cops are targeting them, and cop’s perception that interacting with the black community is more dangerous than interacting with white communities.
    You call for a “willing partner in the black community”. What should that person do?
    What would that person’s counter-party in the law enforcement community do?
    Can we also get some willing partners from the white community, to perhaps dispel the notion that black people are a threat to them? Some kind of anti-Karen?
    FWIW, I may check out of online discussion for a couple of days. This mess is getting inside my head, and not in a good way, and I may just step away for a bit.
    So if you don’t hear from me, I’m not ignoring anybody, I’m just taking a holiday from all of it for a bit.

  152. the high percentage of violent crimes concentrated in the black community creates a higher level of fear among law enforcement professionals
    I want to push back on this.
    Black vs white, or poor vs not poor?
    And if poor vs not poor, why are black people disproportionately poor?
    The above is for *non-fatal* violent crime, and so does not address disproportions in the murder rate.
    The actual number of policemen killed in the line of duty in the US is surprisingly (to me, anyway) low. Not to dismiss the risk of policing, but does the actual risk support the idea of a higher level of fear among cops working in black neighborhoods vs white neighborhoods with similar socio-economic profiles?
    The general direction of your comment above seems to be that the perception within the black community that they are treated unfairly by police is out of proportion to the statistical reality.
    That may be so. I don’t know if the statistical unlikelihood is, or should be, sufficient to dispel a sense of being targeted, but let’s say that the perception of risk is greater than the actual risk.
    I’ll also stipulate your sense that cops have a greater fear of harm working in black communities than in white ones. I don’t know if that’s so, but I’ll stipulate it for the sake of this discussion.
    What do we do to walk that back? I mean both sides of this – black people’s perception that cops are targeting them, and cop’s perception that interacting with the black community is more dangerous than interacting with white communities.
    You call for a “willing partner in the black community”. What should that person do?
    What would that person’s counter-party in the law enforcement community do?
    Can we also get some willing partners from the white community, to perhaps dispel the notion that black people are a threat to them? Some kind of anti-Karen?
    FWIW, I may check out of online discussion for a couple of days. This mess is getting inside my head, and not in a good way, and I may just step away for a bit.
    So if you don’t hear from me, I’m not ignoring anybody, I’m just taking a holiday from all of it for a bit.

  153. Here are another list of links that I hope Marty considers when he argues about what ‘hounding’ means:
    https://eji.org/news/south-carolina-civil-forfeiture-disproportionately-targets-black-men/
    Black men are targeted the most, the report found. They comprise 13 percent of South Carolina’s population, but make up 65 percent of those targeted for civil forfeiture. White people are twice as likely as Black people to get their money back, the report says.
    […]
    Excluding known traffic stops, police in South Carolina (which is 69 percent white) seized money from Black people in two-thirds of all cases compared with one-third for whites, the data analysis shows.
    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10439460802457578?journalCode=gpas20
    In one recent communication with a police detective from a large western city it was argued that different areas in the city are highly segregated by race and that different groups exhibit varying patterns of drug use. One implication that followed from the officer’s reasoning was that places known for crack use and sales would be likely to be targeted with heightened policing while areas that are characterised by use and sales of less serious drugs would get reduced attention by law enforcement agents. If so, it may be that African Americans, who according to this police source are more likely to be involved in crack offenses, should face a higher likelihood of coming into contact with police. When linked with the issue of African American economic deprivation, one logical inference follows: where African Americans make up a sizable proportion of the population, per capita forfeiture dollar values should be reduced. This claim does not contradict the recurring finding in the literature that black citizens are disproportionately targeted with arrest.
    https://digitalcommons.lasalle.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1018&context=ecf_capstones
    However, according to the data made available, the Civil Asset Forfeiture program is currently not being used as it was originally intended. Sales and manufacturing trends have barely dropped since 1990 while the Forfeiture Fund value has skyrocketed. The Asset Forfeiture program is inaccurately seizing assets from low level drug offenders and in lower amounts than originally intended; around $192 in some cities (Kelly, 2015, p. 10). The Asset Forfeiture program is also marginalizing and unfairly subjecting racial minorities and lower earning individuals to having their assets seized. Encompassing national traffic data, African
    Americans and Hispanics are more likely to be stopped and have their vehicles searched than Caucasians (BJS, 2011). Without addressing the issues at hand, the actual use of the program as well as the subjectivity to racial and lower earning groups will go unchanged.
    https://www.splcenter.org/20171030/civil-asset-forfeiture-unfair-undemocratic-and-un-american
    https://oklahomawatch.org/2015/10/07/most-police-seizures-of-cash-come-from-blacks-hispanics/
    https://www.ij.org/images/pdf_folder/other_pubs/assetforfeituretoemail.pdf

  154. Here are another list of links that I hope Marty considers when he argues about what ‘hounding’ means:
    https://eji.org/news/south-carolina-civil-forfeiture-disproportionately-targets-black-men/
    Black men are targeted the most, the report found. They comprise 13 percent of South Carolina’s population, but make up 65 percent of those targeted for civil forfeiture. White people are twice as likely as Black people to get their money back, the report says.
    […]
    Excluding known traffic stops, police in South Carolina (which is 69 percent white) seized money from Black people in two-thirds of all cases compared with one-third for whites, the data analysis shows.
    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10439460802457578?journalCode=gpas20
    In one recent communication with a police detective from a large western city it was argued that different areas in the city are highly segregated by race and that different groups exhibit varying patterns of drug use. One implication that followed from the officer’s reasoning was that places known for crack use and sales would be likely to be targeted with heightened policing while areas that are characterised by use and sales of less serious drugs would get reduced attention by law enforcement agents. If so, it may be that African Americans, who according to this police source are more likely to be involved in crack offenses, should face a higher likelihood of coming into contact with police. When linked with the issue of African American economic deprivation, one logical inference follows: where African Americans make up a sizable proportion of the population, per capita forfeiture dollar values should be reduced. This claim does not contradict the recurring finding in the literature that black citizens are disproportionately targeted with arrest.
    https://digitalcommons.lasalle.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1018&context=ecf_capstones
    However, according to the data made available, the Civil Asset Forfeiture program is currently not being used as it was originally intended. Sales and manufacturing trends have barely dropped since 1990 while the Forfeiture Fund value has skyrocketed. The Asset Forfeiture program is inaccurately seizing assets from low level drug offenders and in lower amounts than originally intended; around $192 in some cities (Kelly, 2015, p. 10). The Asset Forfeiture program is also marginalizing and unfairly subjecting racial minorities and lower earning individuals to having their assets seized. Encompassing national traffic data, African
    Americans and Hispanics are more likely to be stopped and have their vehicles searched than Caucasians (BJS, 2011). Without addressing the issues at hand, the actual use of the program as well as the subjectivity to racial and lower earning groups will go unchanged.
    https://www.splcenter.org/20171030/civil-asset-forfeiture-unfair-undemocratic-and-un-american
    https://oklahomawatch.org/2015/10/07/most-police-seizures-of-cash-come-from-blacks-hispanics/
    https://www.ij.org/images/pdf_folder/other_pubs/assetforfeituretoemail.pdf

  155. My understanding russell is there are, at this point, very few if any policing policies that differentiate levels of violence acceptable based on race. So, to reduce violence across the board should be the goal.
    maybe the problem isn’t the policies; maybe the problem is the racists who implement the policies in ways that create racially-disparate outcomes?

  156. My understanding russell is there are, at this point, very few if any policing policies that differentiate levels of violence acceptable based on race. So, to reduce violence across the board should be the goal.
    maybe the problem isn’t the policies; maybe the problem is the racists who implement the policies in ways that create racially-disparate outcomes?

  157. The actual number of policemen killed in the line of duty in the US is surprisingly (to me, anyway) low.
    Policemen have about the tenth most dangerous job. But, given that their risk is less predictable and manageable, the perception of the level of risk and the resulting stress is likely to be higher than it is for more dangerous jobs.

  158. The actual number of policemen killed in the line of duty in the US is surprisingly (to me, anyway) low.
    Policemen have about the tenth most dangerous job. But, given that their risk is less predictable and manageable, the perception of the level of risk and the resulting stress is likely to be higher than it is for more dangerous jobs.

  161. But, given that their risk is less predictable and manageable, the perception of the level of risk and the resulting stress is likely to be higher than it is for more dangerous jobs.
    Gee, I wonder if this could apply to the folks who are having to deal with the police as well?

  162. But, given that their risk is less predictable and manageable, the perception of the level of risk and the resulting stress is likely to be higher than it is for more dangerous jobs.
    Gee, I wonder if this could apply to the folks who are having to deal with the police as well?

  165. Policemen have about the tenth most dangerous job.
    they can quit, they can take off the uniform. they can walk around in civilian clothes and nobody will treat them like a policeman.

  166. Policemen have about the tenth most dangerous job.
    they can quit, they can take off the uniform. they can walk around in civilian clothes and nobody will treat them like a policeman.

  167. Not sure of that cleek. People will recognize him as an ex-cop unless he moves elesewhere and may well take his clothes for a disguise. Not even considering the ‘once a cop, always a cop’ trope here.

  168. Not sure of that cleek. People will recognize him as an ex-cop unless he moves elesewhere and may well take his clothes for a disguise. Not even considering the ‘once a cop, always a cop’ trope here.

  171. nous’ suggestion regarding needless traffic stops would reduce the risk of police officers getting hit by cars, which is not at all an uncommon cause of on-duty deaths and serious injuries. (Not to mention that things like broken taillights are more likely for people with less money, who are stressed enough without being pulled over and having their time needlessly wasted.)

  172. nous’ suggestion regarding needless traffic stops would reduce the risk of police officers getting hit by cars, which is not at all an uncommon cause of on-duty deaths and serious injuries. (Not to mention that things like broken taillights are more likely for people with less money, who are stressed enough without being pulled over and having their time needlessly wasted.)

  175. this probably happens to white people worth $18M all the time.
    right?
    Time was, if you were a non-Italian white driving an expensive car, you were rich and got deference. If you were an Italian in an expensive car you were, presumptively, a Mafioso and treated accordingly.
    Today, substitute black (or Hispanic) and rhe behavior is the same. The only difference is, it’s easier when you can work off skin color, rather than having to wait until you see a last name.
    P.S. the tweet link isn’t working.

  176. this probably happens to white people worth $18M all the time.
    right?
    Time was, if you were a non-Italian white driving an expensive car, you were rich and got deference. If you were an Italian in an expensive car you were, presumptively, a Mafioso and treated accordingly.
    Today, substitute black (or Hispanic) and rhe behavior is the same. The only difference is, it’s easier when you can work off skin color, rather than having to wait until you see a last name.
    P.S. the tweet link isn’t working.

  181. P.S. the tweet link isn’t working.
    how could a <br/> become part of the URL – and where would that come from since the link isn’t even at the end of a line?

  182. P.S. the tweet link isn’t working.
    how could a <br/> become part of the URL – and where would that come from since the link isn’t even at the end of a line?

  183. People will recognize him as an ex-cop unless he moves elesewhere
    people who know me as a programmer will recognize me as such, even if i stop doing it.
    skin color isn’t like that.
    in other words: “blue lives matter” is bullshit. there is no “blue” life. it’s a job, a career. it’s not genetic.

  184. People will recognize him as an ex-cop unless he moves elesewhere
    people who know me as a programmer will recognize me as such, even if i stop doing it.
    skin color isn’t like that.
    in other words: “blue lives matter” is bullshit. there is no “blue” life. it’s a job, a career. it’s not genetic.

  185. In the new year, assuming (please God!) Trump is gone, this should probably by published in every newspaper (and magazine) published rom the Appalachians to the Cascades.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/middle-america-cannot-be-forgotten-unless-it-first-forgets-itself/2020/08/28/ad87e416-e95e-11ea-970a-64c73a1c2392_story.html

    Somewhere along the way, we’ve gotten the wrong idea about the middle of America. Worse, the heartland has gotten the wrong idea about itself. Quiet, conservative, flyover country; the place one leaves behind; small-minded, nostalgic, “dying/ With a little patience,” to borrow from T.S. Eliot, born in St. Louis, in a poem that shook the world.
    Twentieth-century American art and industry is unimaginable without the fertile ground of the Midwest, the Illinois of Ernest Hemingway and Gwendolyn Brooks, the Minnesota of F. Scott Fitzgerald and Bob Dylan and Prince, the Nebraska of Willa Cather and Johnny Carson, the Iowa of Grant Wood and John Wayne, the Colorado of Damon Runyon and Harold Ross, the Michigan of Henry Ford and Aretha Franklin, the Oklahoma of Will Rogers and Woody Guthrie. This list is just a morsel to suggest the banquet, omitting much more than it includes.
    …
    [This] is a good time for Middle America to rediscover its true nature: home to genius, incubator of audacity, wellspring of ideas. The heartland cannot be forgotten unless it first forgets itself.

    With luck, the “victims” might take it to heart.

  186. In the new year, assuming (please God!) Trump is gone, this should probably by published in every newspaper (and magazine) published rom the Appalachians to the Cascades.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/middle-america-cannot-be-forgotten-unless-it-first-forgets-itself/2020/08/28/ad87e416-e95e-11ea-970a-64c73a1c2392_story.html

    Somewhere along the way, we’ve gotten the wrong idea about the middle of America. Worse, the heartland has gotten the wrong idea about itself. Quiet, conservative, flyover country; the place one leaves behind; small-minded, nostalgic, “dying/ With a little patience,” to borrow from T.S. Eliot, born in St. Louis, in a poem that shook the world.
    Twentieth-century American art and industry is unimaginable without the fertile ground of the Midwest, the Illinois of Ernest Hemingway and Gwendolyn Brooks, the Minnesota of F. Scott Fitzgerald and Bob Dylan and Prince, the Nebraska of Willa Cather and Johnny Carson, the Iowa of Grant Wood and John Wayne, the Colorado of Damon Runyon and Harold Ross, the Michigan of Henry Ford and Aretha Franklin, the Oklahoma of Will Rogers and Woody Guthrie. This list is just a morsel to suggest the banquet, omitting much more than it includes.
    …
    [This] is a good time for Middle America to rediscover its true nature: home to genius, incubator of audacity, wellspring of ideas. The heartland cannot be forgotten unless it first forgets itself.

    With luck, the “victims” might take it to heart.

  187. but what about the $$?
    there’s a multi-billion-dollar industry built around selling ‘conservatives’ the fear that they are set-upon. setting the coastal cities up as the antagonist and making the rest feel like the victim is a big part of the sale.

  188. but what about the $$?
    there’s a multi-billion-dollar industry built around selling ‘conservatives’ the fear that they are set-upon. setting the coastal cities up as the antagonist and making the rest feel like the victim is a big part of the sale.

  189. skin color isn’t like that.
    That is correct but being a cop is a bit more sticky than being a programmer since it is a publicly visible job. Plus, retired cops are a favorite reserve for voter intimidation thugs to be legally deployed (active cops even off-duty ones are banned from that by law).
    So, on the one hand people that have bad experiences with cops will be still wary of people that once wore the uniform and on the other an ex-cop may well be worried about becoming a target himself of retaliation (a fear deliberately stoked by the GOP and constantly used as an argument for giving cops anonymity, in particular those that are guilty of abuse).

  190. skin color isn’t like that.
    That is correct but being a cop is a bit more sticky than being a programmer since it is a publicly visible job. Plus, retired cops are a favorite reserve for voter intimidation thugs to be legally deployed (active cops even off-duty ones are banned from that by law).
    So, on the one hand people that have bad experiences with cops will be still wary of people that once wore the uniform and on the other an ex-cop may well be worried about becoming a target himself of retaliation (a fear deliberately stoked by the GOP and constantly used as an argument for giving cops anonymity, in particular those that are guilty of abuse).

  191. You’re still far less recognizable as a cop if you’re not wearing a uniform. (Thus the concept of being under cover aka “plain-clothes cop.”) The main point being that you don’t have to be a cop if it’s so f**king bad.

  192. You’re still far less recognizable as a cop if you’re not wearing a uniform. (Thus the concept of being under cover aka “plain-clothes cop.”) The main point being that you don’t have to be a cop if it’s so f**king bad.

  193. This mess is getting inside my head, and not in a good way, and I may just step away for a bit.
    These are really hard times for kind, reasonable, humane moderates who try to keep an open mind about the essential decency of most people. Anybody who wants to take a break makes sense to me. I hope it helps.

  194. This mess is getting inside my head, and not in a good way, and I may just step away for a bit.
    These are really hard times for kind, reasonable, humane moderates who try to keep an open mind about the essential decency of most people. Anybody who wants to take a break makes sense to me. I hope it helps.

  195. The main point being that you don’t have to be a cop if it’s so f**king bad.
    More than a few of them shouldn’t be given that police combined with firefighters, corrections workers, other protective service occupations have the sixth-highest suicide rate at 31 per 100,000.

  196. The main point being that you don’t have to be a cop if it’s so f**king bad.
    More than a few of them shouldn’t be given that police combined with firefighters, corrections workers, other protective service occupations have the sixth-highest suicide rate at 31 per 100,000.

  197. i’m liking this guy:

    I liken the Republican Party to the subprime mortgage crisis in 2007. How it’s going to end is more obvious than how long it will take. The future of the Republican Party is pretty clear. It’s California. California was the beating heart of the Republican Party. It was the electoral citadel, and now we’re in third place. Not second — third. That’s what’s going to happen to the Republican Party. It’s inevitable.

  198. i’m liking this guy:

    I liken the Republican Party to the subprime mortgage crisis in 2007. How it’s going to end is more obvious than how long it will take. The future of the Republican Party is pretty clear. It’s California. California was the beating heart of the Republican Party. It was the electoral citadel, and now we’re in third place. Not second — third. That’s what’s going to happen to the Republican Party. It’s inevitable.

  199. Pretty much what I’ve been saying here right along. The GOP nationwide is looking to go the way of the California GOP: strong in a few backwaters, but overall irrelevant. And powerless when it comes to government.
    In other words, they are on course to achieve the kind of irrelevance that they have been complaining of. No doubt they will fail to recognize it when that reality hits. Let alone their own part in achieving it.

  200. Pretty much what I’ve been saying here right along. The GOP nationwide is looking to go the way of the California GOP: strong in a few backwaters, but overall irrelevant. And powerless when it comes to government.
    In other words, they are on course to achieve the kind of irrelevance that they have been complaining of. No doubt they will fail to recognize it when that reality hits. Let alone their own part in achieving it.

  201. Big difference is the California state senate districts are population-based, unlike the U.S. Senate, so minority control of the chamber is far less possible.

  202. Big difference is the California state senate districts are population-based, unlike the U.S. Senate, so minority control of the chamber is far less possible.

  203. I’m not sure if nous made this observation or if a friend who served, but it was that we have a sizable number of people who join the US military as an employer of last resort. When they finish their term of enlistment, their training leads them to a career in law enforcement. I can see how some could seize on that observation as a slur on vets or on cops or on both, but in The Pacific, Eugene Sledge is returning to university after serving in the Marines and the woman helping fill out his class schedule.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSuyOq0vCEE
    Some links
    https://www.themarshallproject.org/2017/03/30/when-warriors-put-on-the-badge
    Today just 6 percent of the population at large has served in the military, but 19 percent of police officers are veterans, according to an analysis of U.S. Census data performed by Gregory B. Lewis and Rahul Pathak of Georgia State University for The Marshall Project. It is the third most common occupation for vets behind truck driving and management.
    https://www.military.com/veteran-jobs/search/law-enforcement-jobs/military-transition-to-police-force.html

  204. I’m not sure if nous made this observation or if a friend who served, but it was that we have a sizable number of people who join the US military as an employer of last resort. When they finish their term of enlistment, their training leads them to a career in law enforcement. I can see how some could seize on that observation as a slur on vets or on cops or on both, but in The Pacific, Eugene Sledge is returning to university after serving in the Marines and the woman helping fill out his class schedule.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSuyOq0vCEE
    Some links
    https://www.themarshallproject.org/2017/03/30/when-warriors-put-on-the-badge
    Today just 6 percent of the population at large has served in the military, but 19 percent of police officers are veterans, according to an analysis of U.S. Census data performed by Gregory B. Lewis and Rahul Pathak of Georgia State University for The Marshall Project. It is the third most common occupation for vets behind truck driving and management.
    https://www.military.com/veteran-jobs/search/law-enforcement-jobs/military-transition-to-police-force.html

  205. I’ve made similar points here about veterans and warrior cop mentality, and I have (I think) talked about how a light infantry MOS often translates into limited opportunity to present military experience as job training.
    This is also, though, a move from one closed society to another, with significant overlap in-between. This makes for a vast cultural disconnect between officers and the civilians that they are tasked with protecting.
    And given the mention of PTSD in the article, I also wonder if the suicide rates that Charles mentions in his article correlate more strongly for people in protective services with prior combat service.
    The bunker mentality of LEO is not a good thing for healing from PTSD. Neither is the continuation of the hypervigilance, the tendency towards berserking, or the high prevalence of triggers.

  206. I’ve made similar points here about veterans and warrior cop mentality, and I have (I think) talked about how a light infantry MOS often translates into limited opportunity to present military experience as job training.
    This is also, though, a move from one closed society to another, with significant overlap in-between. This makes for a vast cultural disconnect between officers and the civilians that they are tasked with protecting.
    And given the mention of PTSD in the article, I also wonder if the suicide rates that Charles mentions in his article correlate more strongly for people in protective services with prior combat service.
    The bunker mentality of LEO is not a good thing for healing from PTSD. Neither is the continuation of the hypervigilance, the tendency towards berserking, or the high prevalence of triggers.

  207. And I don’t think it helps officer mental health that they go to seminars with Dave Grossman who teaches them that warrior cop garbage and claims he can bulletproof their minds against PTSD. What does that do when the officer ends up traumatized (or re-traumatized) and now there is the narrative that the trauma and guilt is a personal failing as well.

  208. And I don’t think it helps officer mental health that they go to seminars with Dave Grossman who teaches them that warrior cop garbage and claims he can bulletproof their minds against PTSD. What does that do when the officer ends up traumatized (or re-traumatized) and now there is the narrative that the trauma and guilt is a personal failing as well.

  209. Trump just deputized every subhuman Rittenhouse wannabe right wing murderer across the country, every heavily armed militia, every Nazi, every NRA cocks*cker, every wife-beating incel proud boy, every triggered militant white supremacist law enforcement member (what’s 10% of all of the cops in the country?), and every crypto-Christian Putin-loyal armed freak in the country to kill all of his enemies in the streets for his re-election campaign, and afterwards if he loses to Biden and refuses to leave the f*cking White House.
    https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2020-08-31/trump-defends-kenosha-shooting-suspect-kyle-rittenhouse?ocid=uxbndlbing
    I predict this armed country will not be a polite country at all as November approaches.
    As is usual with pigfucking right wing America, we will need tens of millions of more guns and hundreds of millions more ammo to defeat the Evil that is going to kill us.
    Libertarians and conservatives should be very pleased with the state of things they have brought us to.
    Reason Magazine, I expect, will justify all of this from amid the smoking rubble around them and conclude that .. we will need still MORE guns in the hands of the murderous citizenry, openly carried in public.
    It will be interesting to see how many photos of guys with guns it will take to make Marty as f*cking scared as I am.
    The Governor of Wisconsin should set up a perimeter around Kenosha with the National Guard and at all airports Air Force One is likely to land and keep federal Trump fascism out of the their homeland by force.
    He should alert the Secret Service and NotMYHomeland Security of what will befall them if they dare breach state and local constitutional rights.
    Time for Wisconsin to act like Texas vis/a/vis the mortal threat of federal government power.

  210. Trump just deputized every subhuman Rittenhouse wannabe right wing murderer across the country, every heavily armed militia, every Nazi, every NRA cocks*cker, every wife-beating incel proud boy, every triggered militant white supremacist law enforcement member (what’s 10% of all of the cops in the country?), and every crypto-Christian Putin-loyal armed freak in the country to kill all of his enemies in the streets for his re-election campaign, and afterwards if he loses to Biden and refuses to leave the f*cking White House.
    https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2020-08-31/trump-defends-kenosha-shooting-suspect-kyle-rittenhouse?ocid=uxbndlbing
    I predict this armed country will not be a polite country at all as November approaches.
    As is usual with pigfucking right wing America, we will need tens of millions of more guns and hundreds of millions more ammo to defeat the Evil that is going to kill us.
    Libertarians and conservatives should be very pleased with the state of things they have brought us to.
    Reason Magazine, I expect, will justify all of this from amid the smoking rubble around them and conclude that .. we will need still MORE guns in the hands of the murderous citizenry, openly carried in public.
    It will be interesting to see how many photos of guys with guns it will take to make Marty as f*cking scared as I am.
    The Governor of Wisconsin should set up a perimeter around Kenosha with the National Guard and at all airports Air Force One is likely to land and keep federal Trump fascism out of the their homeland by force.
    He should alert the Secret Service and NotMYHomeland Security of what will befall them if they dare breach state and local constitutional rights.
    Time for Wisconsin to act like Texas vis/a/vis the mortal threat of federal government power.

  211. Rittenhouse’s mother drove him across state lines with a loaded weapon to murder.
    Lock her up, now.

  212. Rittenhouse’s mother drove him across state lines with a loaded weapon to murder.
    Lock her up, now.

  213. Dead conservatives murder Americans from the grave:
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/herman-cains-twitter-account-still-active-questions-covid-19-mortality-rate/ar-BB18zmlw
    I thought he’d be too busy already spreading Covid-19 in Hell, which by the way has been re-segregated by race by all of the conservatives who have been sent there in recent decades.
    Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon are co-Presidents of white Hell.
    I guess Cain is trying to keep up with his live action genocidal conservative killers:
    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/8/31/1973808/-Trump-advisor-s-plan-signals-maybe-2-Million-dead-could-be-the-right-number

  214. Dead conservatives murder Americans from the grave:
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/herman-cains-twitter-account-still-active-questions-covid-19-mortality-rate/ar-BB18zmlw
    I thought he’d be too busy already spreading Covid-19 in Hell, which by the way has been re-segregated by race by all of the conservatives who have been sent there in recent decades.
    Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon are co-Presidents of white Hell.
    I guess Cain is trying to keep up with his live action genocidal conservative killers:
    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/8/31/1973808/-Trump-advisor-s-plan-signals-maybe-2-Million-dead-could-be-the-right-number

  217. Donald, thanks for the pointer to the White privilege discussion on CT. Have to admit, it makes my head hurt, partially because there seems to be a lot of older positions being argued. I personally think Malik’s argument is too clever and hinges on a definition of privilege that, while bound to the dictionary, is nonetheless an oversimplification. If you (or anyone else) would like to write a post to discuss it, drop a line to the kitty and we’ll work it out.

  218. Donald, thanks for the pointer to the White privilege discussion on CT. Have to admit, it makes my head hurt, partially because there seems to be a lot of older positions being argued. I personally think Malik’s argument is too clever and hinges on a definition of privilege that, while bound to the dictionary, is nonetheless an oversimplification. If you (or anyone else) would like to write a post to discuss it, drop a line to the kitty and we’ll work it out.

  221. LJ—
    Thanks, but I don’t want to write one. I tend to think most people are making good points over there, while ignoring the good points made by their opponents. I have just described most intra- left arguments, come to think of it.
    On this one, I think both class and race reductionism clearly exist and much of the debate over there comes from people pointing out the other people’s blind spots. Sometimes it’s best to observe more than participate.

  222. LJ—
    Thanks, but I don’t want to write one. I tend to think most people are making good points over there, while ignoring the good points made by their opponents. I have just described most intra- left arguments, come to think of it.
    On this one, I think both class and race reductionism clearly exist and much of the debate over there comes from people pointing out the other people’s blind spots. Sometimes it’s best to observe more than participate.

  229. https://www.yahoo.com/news/witnesses-police-reporters-piece-together-071000881.html

    The third night of Jacob Blake protests “had felt different from the start,” Gina Barton reports at the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. There were the armed militia members adding a note of menace, and “what seemed like hundreds more cops than before stood shoulder to shoulder and forced” demonstrators out of the park and into the street, where “there was nowhere to go. Soldiers and cops blocked one end of the road. White guys with big guns blocked the other.”
    One video shows Kenosha police thanking Rittenhouse and other militia members for coming out. Another clip appears to show a militia member recounting that “the cops told us today … like, ‘We’re gonna push ’em down by you, ’cause you can deal with them and then we’re gonna leave.'”

    Nothing fascistic to see here.

  230. https://www.yahoo.com/news/witnesses-police-reporters-piece-together-071000881.html

    The third night of Jacob Blake protests “had felt different from the start,” Gina Barton reports at the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. There were the armed militia members adding a note of menace, and “what seemed like hundreds more cops than before stood shoulder to shoulder and forced” demonstrators out of the park and into the street, where “there was nowhere to go. Soldiers and cops blocked one end of the road. White guys with big guns blocked the other.”
    One video shows Kenosha police thanking Rittenhouse and other militia members for coming out. Another clip appears to show a militia member recounting that “the cops told us today … like, ‘We’re gonna push ’em down by you, ’cause you can deal with them and then we’re gonna leave.'”

    Nothing fascistic to see here.

  231. To follow up on hairshirt’s:
    This is from Ryan Balch, who was also there. Balch is one of the “white guys with guns” invited by the car dealership owner to watch his properties. There is a picture floating around with Rittenhouse walking down the street with another guy who is armored up and carrying a semi-auto rifle, I believe that is Balch. Balch also pops up in a video talking about how the cops are sending the protestors down the block for the white guys with guns to deal with.
    Balch also apparently has associations with white supremacists and boogaloo bois.
    What strikes me most forcefully in Balch’s account of the evening is the co-operation between the militia dudes, BLM protestors, and antifa. Not necessarily good buddies, but also open to mutual aid and co-operation, and engaged in negotiation about who is responsible for what.
    That surprised me.
    The two parties who show up as bad actors in Balch’s account are the folks he calls the “agitators” – people who are just there to create mayhem – and the Kenosha PD.
    I don’t know how credible Balch is, he may just be covering his own @ss. But it’s an interesting account of the night.
    I am hard pressed to make any sense of WTF is going on out there.
    In my own personal perfect world, the governor would tell the cops to stand down, call out the Guard, and lock the city down for a week or two. Let everybody chill the hell out. Including the Kenosha PD, the militia, and anybody else who thinks they know who needs shooting. Show up on the street with a firearm and you will be disarmed and invited to spend the night locked up.
    But we don’t live in my perfect world.
    Craziest times I can remember.

  232. To follow up on hairshirt’s:
    This is from Ryan Balch, who was also there. Balch is one of the “white guys with guns” invited by the car dealership owner to watch his properties. There is a picture floating around with Rittenhouse walking down the street with another guy who is armored up and carrying a semi-auto rifle, I believe that is Balch. Balch also pops up in a video talking about how the cops are sending the protestors down the block for the white guys with guns to deal with.
    Balch also apparently has associations with white supremacists and boogaloo bois.
    What strikes me most forcefully in Balch’s account of the evening is the co-operation between the militia dudes, BLM protestors, and antifa. Not necessarily good buddies, but also open to mutual aid and co-operation, and engaged in negotiation about who is responsible for what.
    That surprised me.
    The two parties who show up as bad actors in Balch’s account are the folks he calls the “agitators” – people who are just there to create mayhem – and the Kenosha PD.
    I don’t know how credible Balch is, he may just be covering his own @ss. But it’s an interesting account of the night.
    I am hard pressed to make any sense of WTF is going on out there.
    In my own personal perfect world, the governor would tell the cops to stand down, call out the Guard, and lock the city down for a week or two. Let everybody chill the hell out. Including the Kenosha PD, the militia, and anybody else who thinks they know who needs shooting. Show up on the street with a firearm and you will be disarmed and invited to spend the night locked up.
    But we don’t live in my perfect world.
    Craziest times I can remember.

  233. but Marxists…

    In the 2020 presidential election, we have one candidate, Joe Biden, who strongly and routinely criticizes the excesses of both left and right. And we have one candidate who strongly and routinely criticizes the excesses of the left, while claiming that the entire left is complicit in those excesses.
    …
    Those who doubt this general characterization of the two main presidential candidates should engage in a little thought experiment. If you went up to a Trump supporter in Portland — someone armed with a MAGA hat, pepper spray, a paintball gun and maybe a little something more — and asked if he or she thought that Trump had their back, the only reasonable response would be “Absolutely!” But if you went up to an anarchist holding a molotov cocktail and asked if Biden had their back, the response would almost certainly be that Biden is a tool of the establishment, bought and sold by Wall Street and alternately manipulated by Big Oil, Big Pharma, Big Beef and the prison-industrial complex.
    The difference here could hardly be more dramatic. With the support of his party’s establishment, Biden is willing to criticize the hard left even as he is willing to call out police misconduct. Trump, in contrast, has adopted a policy of no enemies to the right. It doesn’t matter if you are a white nationalist, a neo-Confederate, an anti-immigrant zealot or a QAnon true believer; support for Trump is redemption in Trump’s own eyes. In the process, Trump is normalizing beliefs and behaviors that are favorable to the growth of violence.

    from the notorious lefty who coined “Axis Of Evil”, “soft bigotry of low expectations” and came up with the “smoking gun / mushroom cloud” for W.

  234. but Marxists…

    In the 2020 presidential election, we have one candidate, Joe Biden, who strongly and routinely criticizes the excesses of both left and right. And we have one candidate who strongly and routinely criticizes the excesses of the left, while claiming that the entire left is complicit in those excesses.
    …
    Those who doubt this general characterization of the two main presidential candidates should engage in a little thought experiment. If you went up to a Trump supporter in Portland — someone armed with a MAGA hat, pepper spray, a paintball gun and maybe a little something more — and asked if he or she thought that Trump had their back, the only reasonable response would be “Absolutely!” But if you went up to an anarchist holding a molotov cocktail and asked if Biden had their back, the response would almost certainly be that Biden is a tool of the establishment, bought and sold by Wall Street and alternately manipulated by Big Oil, Big Pharma, Big Beef and the prison-industrial complex.
    The difference here could hardly be more dramatic. With the support of his party’s establishment, Biden is willing to criticize the hard left even as he is willing to call out police misconduct. Trump, in contrast, has adopted a policy of no enemies to the right. It doesn’t matter if you are a white nationalist, a neo-Confederate, an anti-immigrant zealot or a QAnon true believer; support for Trump is redemption in Trump’s own eyes. In the process, Trump is normalizing beliefs and behaviors that are favorable to the growth of violence.

    from the notorious lefty who coined “Axis Of Evil”, “soft bigotry of low expectations” and came up with the “smoking gun / mushroom cloud” for W.

  235. Balch also apparently has associations with white supremacists and boogaloo bois.
    Yet he carefully differentiates between the BLM folks, who are there to peacefully protest, and the small number of agitators, who are not. Think how much better things would be if Trump could manage to make the same distinction. But of course he won’t.

  236. Balch also apparently has associations with white supremacists and boogaloo bois.
    Yet he carefully differentiates between the BLM folks, who are there to peacefully protest, and the small number of agitators, who are not. Think how much better things would be if Trump could manage to make the same distinction. But of course he won’t.

  239. It’s not in his interest to do so.
    Say, rather, he thinks that it’s not in his interest to do so. IMHO, it would actually help him.
    Not to mention that he’s probably incapable of such a thing.

  240. It’s not in his interest to do so.
    Say, rather, he thinks that it’s not in his interest to do so. IMHO, it would actually help him.
    Not to mention that he’s probably incapable of such a thing.

  243. There’s been some concern expressed about what the military might do, or be willing to do, if Trump loses but refuses to accept the result. After all, the military is, as a grouo, quite conservative. So here’s a really fascinating article from the Military Times.

    In the latest results — based on 1,018 active-duty troops surveyed in late July and early August — nearly half of respondents (49.9 percent) had an unfavorable view of the president, compared to about 38 percent who had a favorable view. Questions in the poll had a margin of error of up to 2 percent.
    Among active-duty service members surveyed in the poll, 41 percent said they would vote for Biden, the Democratic nominee, if the election was held today. Only 37 percent said they plan to vote to re-elect Trump. [emphasis added]

    Also, views of President Trump among the troops:
    Very unfavorable 42.0%
    Unfavorable 7.9%
    Neutral 12.3%
    Favorable 13.3%
    Very favorable 25.4%
    Bottom line, the chances of anything resembling a military coup in Trump’s favor? Minimal.

  244. There’s been some concern expressed about what the military might do, or be willing to do, if Trump loses but refuses to accept the result. After all, the military is, as a grouo, quite conservative. So here’s a really fascinating article from the Military Times.

    In the latest results — based on 1,018 active-duty troops surveyed in late July and early August — nearly half of respondents (49.9 percent) had an unfavorable view of the president, compared to about 38 percent who had a favorable view. Questions in the poll had a margin of error of up to 2 percent.
    Among active-duty service members surveyed in the poll, 41 percent said they would vote for Biden, the Democratic nominee, if the election was held today. Only 37 percent said they plan to vote to re-elect Trump. [emphasis added]

    Also, views of President Trump among the troops:
    Very unfavorable 42.0%
    Unfavorable 7.9%
    Neutral 12.3%
    Favorable 13.3%
    Very favorable 25.4%
    Bottom line, the chances of anything resembling a military coup in Trump’s favor? Minimal.

  247. i’ve heard Frum, too. but Wiki says it’s Gerson.

    His noteworthy phrases for Bush are said to include “Axis of Evil,” a phrase adapted from “axis of hatred,” itself suggested by fellow speechwriter David Frum but deemed too mild.

  248. i’ve heard Frum, too. but Wiki says it’s Gerson.

    His noteworthy phrases for Bush are said to include “Axis of Evil,” a phrase adapted from “axis of hatred,” itself suggested by fellow speechwriter David Frum but deemed too mild.

  249. alternately manipulated by Big Oil, Big Pharma, Big Beef and the prison-industrial complex.
    he left out Big Ag, the military complex, tech, finance, Israel and various globalist entities, depending on the anarchist. Any I missed?

  250. alternately manipulated by Big Oil, Big Pharma, Big Beef and the prison-industrial complex.
    he left out Big Ag, the military complex, tech, finance, Israel and various globalist entities, depending on the anarchist. Any I missed?

  251. Listening to the president’s press conferences and reading his tweets and seeing the way that Carlson and Ingram and the rest are talking about the civil unrest, I am struck by the completely binary nature and sides drawn in it all. It’s not a surprise, given how things have been progressing, but it is dismaying to see that these divisions are now not jut out in the open but featured front and center.
    This is straight up ethno-religious nationalism. This is political theology. Anyone who does not get in line is the foe.
    I don’t doubt when wj says that there is not enough support to back a full blown coup, but there is plenty enough support to turn whatever we call this faction into something like the Klan with tremendous regional influence and extra-judicial violence for leverage.
    It’s not even hard to see anymore.
    Marty, McKinney, and byomtov talk about how far we have come and how much better things are now. They are not wrong. But we are seeing that there is a sizable population that is scared and resentful enough to take that path again, so long as they can tell themselves this is about something other than race. And the right has quite the bouillabaisse simmering in the grievance pot right now, with a dash of white supremacy just to give it kick.

  252. Listening to the president’s press conferences and reading his tweets and seeing the way that Carlson and Ingram and the rest are talking about the civil unrest, I am struck by the completely binary nature and sides drawn in it all. It’s not a surprise, given how things have been progressing, but it is dismaying to see that these divisions are now not jut out in the open but featured front and center.
    This is straight up ethno-religious nationalism. This is political theology. Anyone who does not get in line is the foe.
    I don’t doubt when wj says that there is not enough support to back a full blown coup, but there is plenty enough support to turn whatever we call this faction into something like the Klan with tremendous regional influence and extra-judicial violence for leverage.
    It’s not even hard to see anymore.
    Marty, McKinney, and byomtov talk about how far we have come and how much better things are now. They are not wrong. But we are seeing that there is a sizable population that is scared and resentful enough to take that path again, so long as they can tell themselves this is about something other than race. And the right has quite the bouillabaisse simmering in the grievance pot right now, with a dash of white supremacy just to give it kick.

  253. Marty, McKinney, and byomtov talk about how far we have come and how much better things are now.
    Crikey, I’m not used to seeing byomtov in a category with Marty and McKinney! I’m sure you’re right that he said somewhere that race-related matters have improved, as indeed they have in many ways, but still it gave me a shock, and I can’t help thinking that in a macro-sense it is a bit misleading.

  254. Marty, McKinney, and byomtov talk about how far we have come and how much better things are now.
    Crikey, I’m not used to seeing byomtov in a category with Marty and McKinney! I’m sure you’re right that he said somewhere that race-related matters have improved, as indeed they have in many ways, but still it gave me a shock, and I can’t help thinking that in a macro-sense it is a bit misleading.

  255. Fox and Trump (and their host of defenders) are absolutely giddy that the violence has given them the opportunity to ignore BLM’s actual message.

  256. Fox and Trump (and their host of defenders) are absolutely giddy that the violence has given them the opportunity to ignore BLM’s actual message.

  259. “The GOP nationwide is looking to go the way of the California GOP: strong in a few backwaters, but overall irrelevant. And powerless when it comes to government.”
    I, for one, welcome our new Neo-Whigs.

  260. “The GOP nationwide is looking to go the way of the California GOP: strong in a few backwaters, but overall irrelevant. And powerless when it comes to government.”
    I, for one, welcome our new Neo-Whigs.

  263. I picked those three because they were the ones who most stridently denounced the “white fragility” formulation because they felt that it put too many people in one big bucket with the really vile racists of yore. I’m pointing out that the ethno-religious nationalists have found in their “postmodern cultural marxists” a handy catch-all bucket to throw the libtards into whatever their race.
    It’s not a shot at any of the three. It’s actually an argument for why we need to not get hung up on any one label for prejudice, acknowledge the messy intersections of hate, and get on board with stopping the apocalyptic death cult that’s brewing.

  264. I picked those three because they were the ones who most stridently denounced the “white fragility” formulation because they felt that it put too many people in one big bucket with the really vile racists of yore. I’m pointing out that the ethno-religious nationalists have found in their “postmodern cultural marxists” a handy catch-all bucket to throw the libtards into whatever their race.
    It’s not a shot at any of the three. It’s actually an argument for why we need to not get hung up on any one label for prejudice, acknowledge the messy intersections of hate, and get on board with stopping the apocalyptic death cult that’s brewing.

  265. https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/26/trump-domestic-extemism-homeland-security-401926

    After the weekend of massacres, White House officials became more interested in Neumann’s project. Officials told her they could point to her work to show they took the problem seriously. She briefed multiple officials on domestic terrorism issues and what the government could do to prevent attacks. One challenge was particularly thorny, however: The officials, who Neumann declined to name, didn’t want to use the term “domestic terrorism.”
    “They very clearly were looking at it through the lens of, ‘We have a violence problem,’” Neumann recalled. “And they did not want to talk about the ideological threat.”
    “It makes me sad that in every other circumstance where you’re trying to lay out a strategy to go after a threat, you always start by articulating what the threat is,” she continued. “But in this particular case, we were told, ‘We’re just going to focus on the solutions.’”
    (…)
    John Cohen, the department’s former counterterrorism coordinator, said DHS could bring tremendous expertise and capabilities to the effort to fight domestic terror.
    “The challenge is bringing those resources together in a cohesive, coordinated, and comprehensive way,” he added.
    And, he said, the president isn’t making it easy.
    “Law enforcement officials are concerned that the political rhetoric used by the president to inspire his political base has been viewed by some violent white supremacists as a call to violent action, and has been viewed by a number of mentally unwell, violence-prone individuals as permission to engage in acts of violence,” he added.
    ‘Interrogate the shit out of every single one of them’
    By May 2020, the administration’s hesitancy to use the term “domestic terrorism” had evaporated — at least as far as actors from the left were concerned. After weeks of protests and property damage in Portland, Ore., President Trump tweeted that he would designate antifa, a loose agglomeration of left-wing ‘anti-fascist’ activists, as a terrorist organization — a legal impossibility. Attorney General William Barr then made a statement using the phrase that so many Trump administration officials have been loath to use.
    “The violence instigated and carried out by antifa and other similar groups in connection with the rioting is domestic terrorism and will be treated accordingly,” he said.

    There seems to be a theme here.

  266. https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/26/trump-domestic-extemism-homeland-security-401926

    After the weekend of massacres, White House officials became more interested in Neumann’s project. Officials told her they could point to her work to show they took the problem seriously. She briefed multiple officials on domestic terrorism issues and what the government could do to prevent attacks. One challenge was particularly thorny, however: The officials, who Neumann declined to name, didn’t want to use the term “domestic terrorism.”
    “They very clearly were looking at it through the lens of, ‘We have a violence problem,’” Neumann recalled. “And they did not want to talk about the ideological threat.”
    “It makes me sad that in every other circumstance where you’re trying to lay out a strategy to go after a threat, you always start by articulating what the threat is,” she continued. “But in this particular case, we were told, ‘We’re just going to focus on the solutions.’”
    (…)
    John Cohen, the department’s former counterterrorism coordinator, said DHS could bring tremendous expertise and capabilities to the effort to fight domestic terror.
    “The challenge is bringing those resources together in a cohesive, coordinated, and comprehensive way,” he added.
    And, he said, the president isn’t making it easy.
    “Law enforcement officials are concerned that the political rhetoric used by the president to inspire his political base has been viewed by some violent white supremacists as a call to violent action, and has been viewed by a number of mentally unwell, violence-prone individuals as permission to engage in acts of violence,” he added.
    ‘Interrogate the shit out of every single one of them’
    By May 2020, the administration’s hesitancy to use the term “domestic terrorism” had evaporated — at least as far as actors from the left were concerned. After weeks of protests and property damage in Portland, Ore., President Trump tweeted that he would designate antifa, a loose agglomeration of left-wing ‘anti-fascist’ activists, as a terrorist organization — a legal impossibility. Attorney General William Barr then made a statement using the phrase that so many Trump administration officials have been loath to use.
    “The violence instigated and carried out by antifa and other similar groups in connection with the rioting is domestic terrorism and will be treated accordingly,” he said.

    There seems to be a theme here.

  267. I’m pointing out that the ethno-religious nationalists have found in their “postmodern cultural marxists” a handy catch-all bucket to throw the libtards into whatever their race.
    I have no idea what people like Carlson, Ingraham, et al actually want. They just seem to be toxically angry people who need somebody to hate.
    I don’t know what the cure is, other than don’t get caught up in it and keep them away from power.
    IMO they are insane. Literally. Driven mad by their own bile, and inflamed by the nice lucrative careers they’ve made from it all.
    Dangerous people.

  268. I’m pointing out that the ethno-religious nationalists have found in their “postmodern cultural marxists” a handy catch-all bucket to throw the libtards into whatever their race.
    I have no idea what people like Carlson, Ingraham, et al actually want. They just seem to be toxically angry people who need somebody to hate.
    I don’t know what the cure is, other than don’t get caught up in it and keep them away from power.
    IMO they are insane. Literally. Driven mad by their own bile, and inflamed by the nice lucrative careers they’ve made from it all.
    Dangerous people.

  269. I find it interesting, but nit remarkable, that in a society where one party is entirely based on the politics of victimized that anyone on that side would have the nerve to talk about the other side as having a pot of grievances.
    It shows a stunning lack of awareness that grievances are the foundation of each sides base. Both sides exaggerate them and stoke the flames of discontent.
    Shorter me, WTF, is everybody just stupid?

  270. I find it interesting, but nit remarkable, that in a society where one party is entirely based on the politics of victimized that anyone on that side would have the nerve to talk about the other side as having a pot of grievances.
    It shows a stunning lack of awareness that grievances are the foundation of each sides base. Both sides exaggerate them and stoke the flames of discontent.
    Shorter me, WTF, is everybody just stupid?

  271. Yeah, everybody is just stupid. Thanks for helping us all see the error of our ways.
    But everybody is not trying to start a fucking civil war.

  272. Yeah, everybody is just stupid. Thanks for helping us all see the error of our ways.
    But everybody is not trying to start a fucking civil war.

  273. I have no idea what people like Carlson, Ingraham, et al actually want.
    as i see it: they get paid to keep their audience angry at everyone who isn’t a Republican. they want to get paid.
    WTF, is everybody just stupid?
    Trump’s campaign theme is, very nearly literally: be afraid of anyone who isn’t a Republican – they’re all out to kill you, the country you imagine America to be, and then they’re going to destroy the ghost of your parents.
    Biden’s theme is: Trump’s a fucking loon.
    and you find fault with the left. always.

  274. I have no idea what people like Carlson, Ingraham, et al actually want.
    as i see it: they get paid to keep their audience angry at everyone who isn’t a Republican. they want to get paid.
    WTF, is everybody just stupid?
    Trump’s campaign theme is, very nearly literally: be afraid of anyone who isn’t a Republican – they’re all out to kill you, the country you imagine America to be, and then they’re going to destroy the ghost of your parents.
    Biden’s theme is: Trump’s a fucking loon.
    and you find fault with the left. always.

  275. and you find fault with the left. always.
    Dude, Marty is above it all. He’s here to occasionally drop some of his above-it-all wisdom on us.

  276. and you find fault with the left. always.
    Dude, Marty is above it all. He’s here to occasionally drop some of his above-it-all wisdom on us.

  279. Less sarcastically:
    Every person here is capable of recognizing and understanding that grievances, of all sorts, are part of the motivation of all sides and parties.
    I’ve even heard whining from you, Marty, on more than a few occasions.
    Some grievances are justified. Some, less so. All sides have a mix of them.
    We’re talking about people who are inciting other people to acts of public political violence. Preparing to make war on their neighbors, planning to make war on their neighbors, and making war on their neighbors.
    That goes beyond a “pot of grievances” and becomes a threat to the lives of other people.
    So enough of the “both sides” bullshit. “Both sides” are not arming themselves to kill their counter-parties. The spokespeople for “both sides” are not trotting out justifications for killing people who disagree with them.
    If you have something insightful to say, welcome aboard. If your contribution is “all of you people are stupid and blind to your own hypocrisy”, this is probably not the best time to bring it.
    You’re more than capable of being blind to your own bullshit, just like the rest of us. If you think you’re above it, you’re not.

  280. Less sarcastically:
    Every person here is capable of recognizing and understanding that grievances, of all sorts, are part of the motivation of all sides and parties.
    I’ve even heard whining from you, Marty, on more than a few occasions.
    Some grievances are justified. Some, less so. All sides have a mix of them.
    We’re talking about people who are inciting other people to acts of public political violence. Preparing to make war on their neighbors, planning to make war on their neighbors, and making war on their neighbors.
    That goes beyond a “pot of grievances” and becomes a threat to the lives of other people.
    So enough of the “both sides” bullshit. “Both sides” are not arming themselves to kill their counter-parties. The spokespeople for “both sides” are not trotting out justifications for killing people who disagree with them.
    If you have something insightful to say, welcome aboard. If your contribution is “all of you people are stupid and blind to your own hypocrisy”, this is probably not the best time to bring it.
    You’re more than capable of being blind to your own bullshit, just like the rest of us. If you think you’re above it, you’re not.

  281. stri·dent
    /ˈstrīdnt/
    adjective
    adjective: strident
    1. loud and harsh; grating.
    I did read that DiAngelo discussion, and I can’t even find words for how disappointing it is to find nous calling byomtov “strident” because he disagreed with the “white fragility” dogma. If byomtov was strident, then there’s probably no word in the language for what I would have had to say about DiAngelo.
    Dude, Marty is above it all. He’s here to occasionally drop some of his above-it-all wisdom on us.
    Always with a heavy leavening of contempt for us, or for both sides when the rhetorical occasion warrants. It’s really miraculous how superior he is to the rest of us.

  282. stri·dent
    /ˈstrīdnt/
    adjective
    adjective: strident
    1. loud and harsh; grating.
    I did read that DiAngelo discussion, and I can’t even find words for how disappointing it is to find nous calling byomtov “strident” because he disagreed with the “white fragility” dogma. If byomtov was strident, then there’s probably no word in the language for what I would have had to say about DiAngelo.
    Dude, Marty is above it all. He’s here to occasionally drop some of his above-it-all wisdom on us.
    Always with a heavy leavening of contempt for us, or for both sides when the rhetorical occasion warrants. It’s really miraculous how superior he is to the rest of us.

  285. The Democratic platform is a list of grievances from every tiny to large constituency they can separate out into a victim class. And has been for all 45 years I have been politically aware.
    If you want to dislike Trump fine, but your problem is he represents the grievances of the people who have been blamed by the Democratic party for all that time. Mostly white males. Did the Democratic party, or you, think no one would come along and tell those people they deserved to be represented also?
    And before the “well they were in charge” answer comes, the people that support him feel they are constantly not in charge, in fact they think no one represents them. They get talked bad about, blamed for every other set of victims in society and eventually someone showed up that said they mattered too.
    I think what we should do is sit quietly and understand that we can’t know how they feel. We should just listen better and accept we should let them tell us what to do to improve their situation.

  286. The Democratic platform is a list of grievances from every tiny to large constituency they can separate out into a victim class. And has been for all 45 years I have been politically aware.
    If you want to dislike Trump fine, but your problem is he represents the grievances of the people who have been blamed by the Democratic party for all that time. Mostly white males. Did the Democratic party, or you, think no one would come along and tell those people they deserved to be represented also?
    And before the “well they were in charge” answer comes, the people that support him feel they are constantly not in charge, in fact they think no one represents them. They get talked bad about, blamed for every other set of victims in society and eventually someone showed up that said they mattered too.
    I think what we should do is sit quietly and understand that we can’t know how they feel. We should just listen better and accept we should let them tell us what to do to improve their situation.

  287. but your problem is he represents the grievances of the people who have been blamed by the Democratic party for all that time
    you let us know when the left abandons its core principles in order to follow a guy whose primary appeal is “he represents our grievances against the right”.

  288. but your problem is he represents the grievances of the people who have been blamed by the Democratic party for all that time
    you let us know when the left abandons its core principles in order to follow a guy whose primary appeal is “he represents our grievances against the right”.

  291. Well,to clarify, I am not expressing contempt, I’m expressing confusion and frustration.
    WTF, to me expresses that.

  292. Well,to clarify, I am not expressing contempt, I’m expressing confusion and frustration.
    WTF, to me expresses that.

  297. f’in Marxists

    Including the El Paso attack, white supremacists were behind 81 percent of the domestic extremist-related murders in 2019. Right-wing extremists were responsible for 90 percent of such murders in 2019 and for 330 deaths over the course of the last decade, accounting for 76 percent of all domestic extremist-related murders in that time.

  298. f’in Marxists

    Including the El Paso attack, white supremacists were behind 81 percent of the domestic extremist-related murders in 2019. Right-wing extremists were responsible for 90 percent of such murders in 2019 and for 330 deaths over the course of the last decade, accounting for 76 percent of all domestic extremist-related murders in that time.

  299. I’ll tack this from my 2:20 Politico link onto cleek’s comment:

    One state law enforcement official, who requested anonymity to discuss intelligence matters, said the intelligence products DHS sends to its state and local partners emphasize the threat from left-wing extremists significantly more than the threat from right-wing extremists––and disproportionately so. Left-wing extremists have caused numerous problems and hurt police, the state official continued. “But none of them have been killed,” the official said. “But when we look at the far right, we’ve seen numerous attacks where cops have been killed.”
    “I would expect at least a balanced production between far left and far right extremists,” the official continued.
    The official also said he got much more helpful information on threats from the far right from the Anti-Defamation League than from DHS — particularly its material on Boogaloo, a coterie of extremists trying to incite a race war.
    “They only have a handful of analysts at the ADL, and their handful of analysts put together a better product that the entire DHS,” the official said.
    Earlier in the Trump administration, DHS’s intelligence arm disbanded a group of analysts focused on domestic terrorism.
    Selim, of the ADL, said DHS’s sparse material for state and local partners on far-right threats and Boogaloo was concerning.
    “It’s problematic,” he said. “The DHS’s mission and mandate is to protect against all threats both foreign and domestic.”

  300. I’ll tack this from my 2:20 Politico link onto cleek’s comment:

    One state law enforcement official, who requested anonymity to discuss intelligence matters, said the intelligence products DHS sends to its state and local partners emphasize the threat from left-wing extremists significantly more than the threat from right-wing extremists––and disproportionately so. Left-wing extremists have caused numerous problems and hurt police, the state official continued. “But none of them have been killed,” the official said. “But when we look at the far right, we’ve seen numerous attacks where cops have been killed.”
    “I would expect at least a balanced production between far left and far right extremists,” the official continued.
    The official also said he got much more helpful information on threats from the far right from the Anti-Defamation League than from DHS — particularly its material on Boogaloo, a coterie of extremists trying to incite a race war.
    “They only have a handful of analysts at the ADL, and their handful of analysts put together a better product that the entire DHS,” the official said.
    Earlier in the Trump administration, DHS’s intelligence arm disbanded a group of analysts focused on domestic terrorism.
    Selim, of the ADL, said DHS’s sparse material for state and local partners on far-right threats and Boogaloo was concerning.
    “It’s problematic,” he said. “The DHS’s mission and mandate is to protect against all threats both foreign and domestic.”

  301. I have no idea what people like Carlson, Ingraham, et al actually want.
    as i see it: they get paid to keep their audience angry at everyone who isn’t a Republican. they want to get paid.
    That was my take as well.
    We’ve known for years that Limbaugh, for example, doesn’t particularly believe the idiocy that he spouts. But he’s an entertainer who knows what his audience wants, and is prepared to keep dishing it out. Not too much of a surprise that there are others of the same ilk.

  302. I have no idea what people like Carlson, Ingraham, et al actually want.
    as i see it: they get paid to keep their audience angry at everyone who isn’t a Republican. they want to get paid.
    That was my take as well.
    We’ve known for years that Limbaugh, for example, doesn’t particularly believe the idiocy that he spouts. But he’s an entertainer who knows what his audience wants, and is prepared to keep dishing it out. Not too much of a surprise that there are others of the same ilk.

  303. The Democratic platform is a list of grievances from every tiny to large constituency they can separate out into a victim class.
    The 2020 Democratic Platform.
    A variety of sub-groups are called out. White males, specifically, are not.
    So, you have a point.
    If you actually look at the policies the (D)’s propose – support for labor, small businesses, farmers and rural communities – there actually is a lot there for the people you seem to be concerned about.
    The (R)’s don’t have a platform. Not just a platform that doesn’t address the needs of white males, but no platform at all.
    Their platform is Donald J Trump. The guy who says they matter.
    And the guy that showed up to say that they mattered has given them fuck-all. Donald Trump cares about people who he can sell luxury. condos to. He cares about people who want to stay in his hotels. He cares about people who want to pay him for the use of his name. He cares about people who will pay $200K a year to stay at his golf club.
    The people you are talking about, are not those people. They don’t have the money. Trump does not give a shit about them.
    Trump gave them a tax cut that went overwhelmingly to the wealthy. He gave them a federal deficit that is going to put the kinds of programs they live by – SS, Medicare – at risk. He gave them a shrug and a big “what me worry?” when almost 200K of them fucking died of COVID.
    He is a lying sack of shit. He doesn’t give a flying f**k about anyone but himself and, perhaps, a handful of his rich buddies.
    More fools they, all the people who thought he was their guy.
    So, in addition to your point, there’s all of that.
    I’m fine with listening to people. I’m all ears if people want to talk about what they need.
    I won’t put up with people threatening war. What we’ve been talking about here, in this thread, are people who are threatening war.
    White males who feel abused by life need to wise up and recognize who has their best interests in mind. I’m sure they feel left out when the (D)’s talk about the problems of black people and brown people and gay people and women, and I’m also sure they are included, even if not by name, when the (D)’s talk about small business owners, and the middle class, and farmers, and rank and file labor.
    They need to get smart, because the (R)’s are shining them the hell on.

  304. The Democratic platform is a list of grievances from every tiny to large constituency they can separate out into a victim class.
    The 2020 Democratic Platform.
    A variety of sub-groups are called out. White males, specifically, are not.
    So, you have a point.
    If you actually look at the policies the (D)’s propose – support for labor, small businesses, farmers and rural communities – there actually is a lot there for the people you seem to be concerned about.
    The (R)’s don’t have a platform. Not just a platform that doesn’t address the needs of white males, but no platform at all.
    Their platform is Donald J Trump. The guy who says they matter.
    And the guy that showed up to say that they mattered has given them fuck-all. Donald Trump cares about people who he can sell luxury. condos to. He cares about people who want to stay in his hotels. He cares about people who want to pay him for the use of his name. He cares about people who will pay $200K a year to stay at his golf club.
    The people you are talking about, are not those people. They don’t have the money. Trump does not give a shit about them.
    Trump gave them a tax cut that went overwhelmingly to the wealthy. He gave them a federal deficit that is going to put the kinds of programs they live by – SS, Medicare – at risk. He gave them a shrug and a big “what me worry?” when almost 200K of them fucking died of COVID.
    He is a lying sack of shit. He doesn’t give a flying f**k about anyone but himself and, perhaps, a handful of his rich buddies.
    More fools they, all the people who thought he was their guy.
    So, in addition to your point, there’s all of that.
    I’m fine with listening to people. I’m all ears if people want to talk about what they need.
    I won’t put up with people threatening war. What we’ve been talking about here, in this thread, are people who are threatening war.
    White males who feel abused by life need to wise up and recognize who has their best interests in mind. I’m sure they feel left out when the (D)’s talk about the problems of black people and brown people and gay people and women, and I’m also sure they are included, even if not by name, when the (D)’s talk about small business owners, and the middle class, and farmers, and rank and file labor.
    They need to get smart, because the (R)’s are shining them the hell on.

  305. that happened in 1964
    I have no idea what this even means.
    Deep in our hearts, we knew he was right?
    My turn to say WTF.

  306. that happened in 1964
    I have no idea what this even means.
    Deep in our hearts, we knew he was right?
    My turn to say WTF.

  307. I won’t put up with people threatening war. What we’ve been talking about here, in this thread, are people who are threatening war.
    Your problem, russell, is that you are believing fake news. Marty has the real dope (with a dollop of contempt):

    Ffs, we are experiencing Civil Rights Era weather underground violence today. The building violence is all from the left and it isn’t civil disobedience, its f’ing violence.
    Yall sit here jawing about monsters under the bed while real, dangerous people are rioting and beating people across the country daily.
    Such bs. When Joe wins and the people who actually respect the law take their open carry weapons and quietly wait for the next election, or noisily wait for the next election, will anyone here admit to being wrong?
    Naw, you’ll just find a picture of some guy with a rifle and get the vapors while ignoring people in black masks looting and pulling people out of cars and beating them.
    Posted by: Marty | August 18, 2020 at 08:09 PM

    (The Potemkin thread, third page. Comment links don’t seem to work very well.)
    I’m sure all that stuff about Kyle Rittenhouse and the Kenosha PD is also fake news, and that they all respect the law to the hilt.

  308. I won’t put up with people threatening war. What we’ve been talking about here, in this thread, are people who are threatening war.
    Your problem, russell, is that you are believing fake news. Marty has the real dope (with a dollop of contempt):

    Ffs, we are experiencing Civil Rights Era weather underground violence today. The building violence is all from the left and it isn’t civil disobedience, its f’ing violence.
    Yall sit here jawing about monsters under the bed while real, dangerous people are rioting and beating people across the country daily.
    Such bs. When Joe wins and the people who actually respect the law take their open carry weapons and quietly wait for the next election, or noisily wait for the next election, will anyone here admit to being wrong?
    Naw, you’ll just find a picture of some guy with a rifle and get the vapors while ignoring people in black masks looting and pulling people out of cars and beating them.
    Posted by: Marty | August 18, 2020 at 08:09 PM

    (The Potemkin thread, third page. Comment links don’t seem to work very well.)
    I’m sure all that stuff about Kyle Rittenhouse and the Kenosha PD is also fake news, and that they all respect the law to the hilt.

  309. we are experiencing Civil Rights Era weather underground violence today.
    FWIW, today shows little resemblance to the early 1970s. (Which I assume is what is meant by the “Civil Rights Era”, since the Weather Underground didn’t even come into existence until 1969.) Take it from someone who was there, it just doesn’t. For one thing, far fewer violent actions (from those outside the Weather Underground, mind). And when you subtract out the violent actions by those on the right (outside the South, for the 1070s), the numbers go down even further.

  310. we are experiencing Civil Rights Era weather underground violence today.
    FWIW, today shows little resemblance to the early 1970s. (Which I assume is what is meant by the “Civil Rights Era”, since the Weather Underground didn’t even come into existence until 1969.) Take it from someone who was there, it just doesn’t. For one thing, far fewer violent actions (from those outside the Weather Underground, mind). And when you subtract out the violent actions by those on the right (outside the South, for the 1070s), the numbers go down even further.

  311. That whole threatening war thing, I wont put up with that either. But it isn’t the right occupying our cities. If a war comes the left will start it.

  312. That whole threatening war thing, I wont put up with that either. But it isn’t the right occupying our cities. If a war comes the left will start it.

  313. JanieM – swap “vociferous” for “strident” if that goes easier on your sense of fairness. But his dislike was not expressed in quiet terms.

  314. JanieM – swap “vociferous” for “strident” if that goes easier on your sense of fairness. But his dislike was not expressed in quiet terms.

  315. If a war comes the left will start it.
    oh fer sher, fer sher.
    i have no doubt whatsoever that no matter what happens, the right will blame the left. they’re doing it right now. they’re doing it right fucking now to justify driving around shooting crowds with paintballs and tear gas – actions which easily warrant lethal response.
    and were the left as bloodthirsty as their Conservatively-imagined caricatures are supposed to be, not one of those pickups would have made it to the next fucking block with a breathing Trump supporter on board.
    Trump and his cadre of nihilistic ghouls are encouraging their shock troops to go into “our cities” and kill protestors.
    and, “our cities”?
    the Trumpsucking fuckwads who came to soil my town with their racism and dreams of fighting antifa this summer came from everywhere but here.
    no, there is no doubt that Marty will blame the left for everything. that’s a guarantee.

  316. If a war comes the left will start it.
    oh fer sher, fer sher.
    i have no doubt whatsoever that no matter what happens, the right will blame the left. they’re doing it right now. they’re doing it right fucking now to justify driving around shooting crowds with paintballs and tear gas – actions which easily warrant lethal response.
    and were the left as bloodthirsty as their Conservatively-imagined caricatures are supposed to be, not one of those pickups would have made it to the next fucking block with a breathing Trump supporter on board.
    Trump and his cadre of nihilistic ghouls are encouraging their shock troops to go into “our cities” and kill protestors.
    and, “our cities”?
    the Trumpsucking fuckwads who came to soil my town with their racism and dreams of fighting antifa this summer came from everywhere but here.
    no, there is no doubt that Marty will blame the left for everything. that’s a guarantee.

  317. it isn’t the right occupying our cities. If a war comes the left will start it.
    This is a bizarre statement. I can only assume that you believe it because it fits your personal preoccupations.
    There are no cities that are “occupied” by anybody, right or left. None. There are cities where there are riots. The people engaged in the public violence are from both the right and the left, where for “the right” we have organizations like the Kenosha Guard and a parade of Donald J Trump supporters in pickup trucks, and on “the left” we have a disorganized rabble of self-styled anarchists.
    There is literally no significant public figure to the left of Genghis Khan who is encouraging anybody to take up arms or engage in violence of any sort. There is no support, whatsoever, in the (D) party or the institutional “left” in the US for public violence. There is nobody in the (D) party or any similar institution that is recommending that its people acquire arms and prepare to go to war with their own government or their neighbors.
    Nobody.

  318. it isn’t the right occupying our cities. If a war comes the left will start it.
    This is a bizarre statement. I can only assume that you believe it because it fits your personal preoccupations.
    There are no cities that are “occupied” by anybody, right or left. None. There are cities where there are riots. The people engaged in the public violence are from both the right and the left, where for “the right” we have organizations like the Kenosha Guard and a parade of Donald J Trump supporters in pickup trucks, and on “the left” we have a disorganized rabble of self-styled anarchists.
    There is literally no significant public figure to the left of Genghis Khan who is encouraging anybody to take up arms or engage in violence of any sort. There is no support, whatsoever, in the (D) party or the institutional “left” in the US for public violence. There is nobody in the (D) party or any similar institution that is recommending that its people acquire arms and prepare to go to war with their own government or their neighbors.
    Nobody.

  319. If a war comes the left will start it.
    Sure. Someone on the left might not do exactly what the Proud Boys and Boogaloo Boys say, thereby provoking the Proud Boys and Boogaloo, who will start shooting (well, start shooting more than they already have). That’s how the left with start it.
    They want a f**king race war, according to them. But it will be the fault of Black people and those who stand up for Black people when it happens, because white supremacy is the peaceful status quo being upended.

  320. If a war comes the left will start it.
    Sure. Someone on the left might not do exactly what the Proud Boys and Boogaloo Boys say, thereby provoking the Proud Boys and Boogaloo, who will start shooting (well, start shooting more than they already have). That’s how the left with start it.
    They want a f**king race war, according to them. But it will be the fault of Black people and those who stand up for Black people when it happens, because white supremacy is the peaceful status quo being upended.

  321. There aren’t enough Proud boys to start a war. There aren’t even enough militia to start a war.
    The right can put together a 50 person rally for the most part.
    The left will start the war.

  322. There aren’t enough Proud boys to start a war. There aren’t even enough militia to start a war.
    The right can put together a 50 person rally for the most part.
    The left will start the war.

  323. the people that support him feel they are constantly not in charge, in fact they think no one represents them. They get talked bad about, blamed for every other set of victims in society and eventually someone showed up that said they mattered too.
    Well, true as this may be, they got taken for a ride. You could, if you were feeling particularly heartless, say “more fool them”. But actually, it’s a tragedy that (to the extent they are) they are continuing to support politicians who have nothing but contempt for them. cleek @03.34 and hsh @03.39 show exactly how wrong Marty was in the post Janie quotes above @03.45. But Marty, despite his contempt for Trump, has swallowed wholesale the lie that both sides are equally to blame (or even that the left is mostly to blame). That continuing sort of baseless propaganda, combined with the enabling and stoking by the White House and its allies, will be what leads to some kind of civil war. People will not put up with being gaslighted forever.

  324. the people that support him feel they are constantly not in charge, in fact they think no one represents them. They get talked bad about, blamed for every other set of victims in society and eventually someone showed up that said they mattered too.
    Well, true as this may be, they got taken for a ride. You could, if you were feeling particularly heartless, say “more fool them”. But actually, it’s a tragedy that (to the extent they are) they are continuing to support politicians who have nothing but contempt for them. cleek @03.34 and hsh @03.39 show exactly how wrong Marty was in the post Janie quotes above @03.45. But Marty, despite his contempt for Trump, has swallowed wholesale the lie that both sides are equally to blame (or even that the left is mostly to blame). That continuing sort of baseless propaganda, combined with the enabling and stoking by the White House and its allies, will be what leads to some kind of civil war. People will not put up with being gaslighted forever.

  325. Tell me how many people belong to militia organizations in the US. Do you know?
    How many in the Klan and related white supremacist groups. Do you know?
    Any idea? 50? 1,000? 50,000? A million?
    Just an order of magnitude number. Any clue?
    It’s not worth discussing this with you, because you don’t know what you’re talking about.
    Have a nice day.

  326. Tell me how many people belong to militia organizations in the US. Do you know?
    How many in the Klan and related white supremacist groups. Do you know?
    Any idea? 50? 1,000? 50,000? A million?
    Just an order of magnitude number. Any clue?
    It’s not worth discussing this with you, because you don’t know what you’re talking about.
    Have a nice day.

  327. There aren’t enough Proud boys to start a war.
    it takes very little to start a war, once you have enough people primed to fight one.
    and there are literally hudrdeds of right-wing militias in the US today. some of them, like the 3%ers and the Oath Keepers have many thousands of members. and they are eager to tell as many people as they can about how they are ready to fight the upcoming war.

  328. There aren’t enough Proud boys to start a war.
    it takes very little to start a war, once you have enough people primed to fight one.
    and there are literally hudrdeds of right-wing militias in the US today. some of them, like the 3%ers and the Oath Keepers have many thousands of members. and they are eager to tell as many people as they can about how they are ready to fight the upcoming war.

  331. Where are the left’s militias? What are they called? Don’t say “Antifa” unless you want to get laughed out of the room.

  332. Where are the left’s militias? What are they called? Don’t say “Antifa” unless you want to get laughed out of the room.

  335. If a war comes the left will start it.
    That’s, like, totally indisputable. After all, if Trump loses and the right starts a shooting, the left will have started the war because they blocked Trump’s reelection. Once you accept the overall world view, it makes complete sense.
    Of course, if you don’t embrace that deluded world view, it’s pretty daft to claim that, necessarily, the folks with all the guns weren’t the ones who started using them.

  336. If a war comes the left will start it.
    That’s, like, totally indisputable. After all, if Trump loses and the right starts a shooting, the left will have started the war because they blocked Trump’s reelection. Once you accept the overall world view, it makes complete sense.
    Of course, if you don’t embrace that deluded world view, it’s pretty daft to claim that, necessarily, the folks with all the guns weren’t the ones who started using them.

  337. russell, the highest number anyone estimates militia membership at is 60k across the US. More realistic estimates tend toward 30k. Thats not enough to start a war.
    Oh look up militias in Wikipedia, im pretty sure that’s where I got the latest numbers from.

  338. russell, the highest number anyone estimates militia membership at is 60k across the US. More realistic estimates tend toward 30k. Thats not enough to start a war.
    Oh look up militias in Wikipedia, im pretty sure that’s where I got the latest numbers from.

  339. There is also the Not Fucking Around Coalition (NFAC), but I don’t have a link for them.
    Redneck Revolt started in 2009. NFAC started in 2020.
    These recent formations are a response to the Tea Party open carry marches and the right-wing militias.
    Before that you had the black bloc types at Occupy. I’m guessing they numbered in the low hundreds.

  340. There is also the Not Fucking Around Coalition (NFAC), but I don’t have a link for them.
    Redneck Revolt started in 2009. NFAC started in 2020.
    These recent formations are a response to the Tea Party open carry marches and the right-wing militias.
    Before that you had the black bloc types at Occupy. I’m guessing they numbered in the low hundreds.

  343. the highest number anyone estimates militia membership at is 60k across the US. More realistic estimates tend toward 30k.
    Tens of thousands is probably in the neighborhood. If you count militias plus 3 percenters plus Oath Keepers plus KKK plus all of the similar grab bag of knuckleheads, the higher estimate is probably the more accurate.
    There isn’t going to be a “war”, because not enough people want a war. This will, frankly, be a disappointment to many right-wingers, who are quite vocal about their wish to shoot other people.
    What there already is, and what shows no sign of dying down, are incidents of organized violence. From the left, and from the right. In terms of loss of life, violence from the right is of far greater concern, orders of magnitude greater concern.
    The violence from the left receives no support whatsoever from anyone remotely on “the left” in the United States. Not the (D)’s, not anyone representing the (D)’s, not any talking head or pundit, not anyone.
    The right is a completely different story.

  344. the highest number anyone estimates militia membership at is 60k across the US. More realistic estimates tend toward 30k.
    Tens of thousands is probably in the neighborhood. If you count militias plus 3 percenters plus Oath Keepers plus KKK plus all of the similar grab bag of knuckleheads, the higher estimate is probably the more accurate.
    There isn’t going to be a “war”, because not enough people want a war. This will, frankly, be a disappointment to many right-wingers, who are quite vocal about their wish to shoot other people.
    What there already is, and what shows no sign of dying down, are incidents of organized violence. From the left, and from the right. In terms of loss of life, violence from the right is of far greater concern, orders of magnitude greater concern.
    The violence from the left receives no support whatsoever from anyone remotely on “the left” in the United States. Not the (D)’s, not anyone representing the (D)’s, not any talking head or pundit, not anyone.
    The right is a completely different story.

  345. There is also the Not Fucking Around Coalition (NFAC)
    It’s not clear to me that NFAC are “left” in any sense. I wouldn’t be surprised to find some (R)’s in their ranks. They’re black.

  346. There is also the Not Fucking Around Coalition (NFAC)
    It’s not clear to me that NFAC are “left” in any sense. I wouldn’t be surprised to find some (R)’s in their ranks. They’re black.

  347. Estimates I’ve seen in studies put the alt-right at about 11 million. That’s a bit over 5% of the non-hispanic-white population. It’s less than the 3% that the 3%ers aim for, but the accelerationists are hoping that open conflict will drive more people into their numbers.
    And what makes anyone think that they are going to be dissuaded by the fact that theirs is a lost cause?
    Not civil war, a shadow army like the Klan.

  348. Estimates I’ve seen in studies put the alt-right at about 11 million. That’s a bit over 5% of the non-hispanic-white population. It’s less than the 3% that the 3%ers aim for, but the accelerationists are hoping that open conflict will drive more people into their numbers.
    And what makes anyone think that they are going to be dissuaded by the fact that theirs is a lost cause?
    Not civil war, a shadow army like the Klan.

  349. the highest number anyone estimates militia membership at is 60k across the US. More realistic estimates tend toward 30k. Thats not enough to start a war.
    But consider how many folks there are out there who, while they haven’t joined a militia, have a bunch of guns to “defend themselves from the ravening hordes.” Of whom they are terrified. If the shooting starts, they’ll jump right in.
    A spark plug, on its own, doesn’t provide enough power to move a car significantly. Not even close. But consider what it can initiate.

  350. the highest number anyone estimates militia membership at is 60k across the US. More realistic estimates tend toward 30k. Thats not enough to start a war.
    But consider how many folks there are out there who, while they haven’t joined a militia, have a bunch of guns to “defend themselves from the ravening hordes.” Of whom they are terrified. If the shooting starts, they’ll jump right in.
    A spark plug, on its own, doesn’t provide enough power to move a car significantly. Not even close. But consider what it can initiate.

  351. And, russell, we know that the NFAC is going to be counted as left on skin color alone, and get lumped in with BLM, and be grandfathered in as marxist by association.

  352. And, russell, we know that the NFAC is going to be counted as left on skin color alone, and get lumped in with BLM, and be grandfathered in as marxist by association.

  355. we know that the NFAC is going to be counted as left on skin color alone, and get lumped in with BLM, and be grandfathered in as marxist by association.
    Commie cooties!!

  356. we know that the NFAC is going to be counted as left on skin color alone, and get lumped in with BLM, and be grandfathered in as marxist by association.
    Commie cooties!!

  357. 1964.
    …
    What? WHAT?
    In 1964 the (D) party abandoned their traditional principles and got the Civil Rights Act passed.
    The did so with very strong support from the (R) party of the time.
    And then all the southern (D)’s became (R)’s.

  358. 1964.
    …
    What? WHAT?
    In 1964 the (D) party abandoned their traditional principles and got the Civil Rights Act passed.
    The did so with very strong support from the (R) party of the time.
    And then all the southern (D)’s became (R)’s.

  359. In terms of loss of life, violence from the right is of far greater concern, orders of magnitude greater concern.
    Tons of evidence for this (and acts of violence or “domestic terrorism” not necessarily resulting in loss of life) has been produced, quoted and linked on this very blog, for many months. None has been produced to show the opposite. The current protests, and BLM demonstrations, have been used by various violent factions (on both sides) to make, and stoke, trouble to muddy the water. Trump et al are enthusiastically taking advantage, and their counterfactual propaganda appears to be quite successful, in some quarters. Let’s hope not enough.

  360. In terms of loss of life, violence from the right is of far greater concern, orders of magnitude greater concern.
    Tons of evidence for this (and acts of violence or “domestic terrorism” not necessarily resulting in loss of life) has been produced, quoted and linked on this very blog, for many months. None has been produced to show the opposite. The current protests, and BLM demonstrations, have been used by various violent factions (on both sides) to make, and stoke, trouble to muddy the water. Trump et al are enthusiastically taking advantage, and their counterfactual propaganda appears to be quite successful, in some quarters. Let’s hope not enough.

  361. Ah, yes, 1964. A pivotal year, when black lives started to matter a little too much for the usual suspects.
    The Confederate Right, put-upon victims all, blamed the Lincoln Union Left for magnetizing themselves and attracting the metal shells of Beauregard’s big guns at Fort Sumter, starting that civil war, a much sentimentalized event by southern boys to this day.
    Five years later, right-wing racist confederate grievance-monger and father of the Republican Party, John Wilkes Booth, heard Lincoln tout the possibility of the freed slaves gaining the votes and said, like so many have said since, “That means nigger citizenship” and shot Lincoln, paving the way for Trump’s defunding of the Post Office to stymie minority voting and steal the November election for the grievance-ridden butt hurt white majority who have been fully in charge of the entire coast to coast sheebang in this country for every day of the 88,330 days, give or take, this country has been in existence and during which my white rights have been deemed “natural, and God-given from the get-go, while equal minority rights have been deemed something I, the white man, bestows upon … “gives” … the rest of humanity in this country with much foot-dragging, waitandseeism, yeah-but-what-about-ism, and general mealy mouthed redlining fucking pig shit.
    The Founder of the Oath Keepers … all of whom should have been shot dead every time their camoed (they actually think they blend in) beer-bellied gun-toters have shown up in every trouble spot around the country over the past 15 years and counting, along with the Bundy family, and who still call their fat-ass privileged selves “unrepresented”, except by filthy right wing law firms, and who got away with mayhem, rioting, tax cheating, destruction of government property and buildings (which now c*cksucking republicans want to protect .. imagine that, those gummint-haters protecting gummint structures, after Oklahoma city, after numerous IRA facilities being bombed and on and on and on) …
    … has already announced the start of the Civil War, so waiting around for liberals to start something is a day late and about 8 trillion Citizen’s United dollars short.
    “The first shot has been fired brother,” said Stewart Rhodes, founder of the armed anti-government group Oath Keepers, in a tweet Sunday. “Civil war is here, right now. We’ll give Trump one last chance to declare this a Marxist insurrection & suppress it as his duty demands. If he fails to do HIS duty, we will do OURS.”
    Don’t call me brother.
    Marxist. What fatuous bullshit. No wonder there is no sanity clause.
    As for the Proud Boys, their mums and their sisters, their girlfriends, and their wives, all of whom whose affections were returned with rape and a demand for a beer while the ladies are up, they may start something, but fighting one handed as they do …. their good hand always busy rooting around down the front of their own pants checking for manhood and spare change for the glory hole booths … yelling BOO! at them will scatter them into the underbrush.
    There’s a fortune to be made in cornering the market in canned pinto beans.

  362. Ah, yes, 1964. A pivotal year, when black lives started to matter a little too much for the usual suspects.
    The Confederate Right, put-upon victims all, blamed the Lincoln Union Left for magnetizing themselves and attracting the metal shells of Beauregard’s big guns at Fort Sumter, starting that civil war, a much sentimentalized event by southern boys to this day.
    Five years later, right-wing racist confederate grievance-monger and father of the Republican Party, John Wilkes Booth, heard Lincoln tout the possibility of the freed slaves gaining the votes and said, like so many have said since, “That means nigger citizenship” and shot Lincoln, paving the way for Trump’s defunding of the Post Office to stymie minority voting and steal the November election for the grievance-ridden butt hurt white majority who have been fully in charge of the entire coast to coast sheebang in this country for every day of the 88,330 days, give or take, this country has been in existence and during which my white rights have been deemed “natural, and God-given from the get-go, while equal minority rights have been deemed something I, the white man, bestows upon … “gives” … the rest of humanity in this country with much foot-dragging, waitandseeism, yeah-but-what-about-ism, and general mealy mouthed redlining fucking pig shit.
    The Founder of the Oath Keepers … all of whom should have been shot dead every time their camoed (they actually think they blend in) beer-bellied gun-toters have shown up in every trouble spot around the country over the past 15 years and counting, along with the Bundy family, and who still call their fat-ass privileged selves “unrepresented”, except by filthy right wing law firms, and who got away with mayhem, rioting, tax cheating, destruction of government property and buildings (which now c*cksucking republicans want to protect .. imagine that, those gummint-haters protecting gummint structures, after Oklahoma city, after numerous IRA facilities being bombed and on and on and on) …
    … has already announced the start of the Civil War, so waiting around for liberals to start something is a day late and about 8 trillion Citizen’s United dollars short.
    “The first shot has been fired brother,” said Stewart Rhodes, founder of the armed anti-government group Oath Keepers, in a tweet Sunday. “Civil war is here, right now. We’ll give Trump one last chance to declare this a Marxist insurrection & suppress it as his duty demands. If he fails to do HIS duty, we will do OURS.”
    Don’t call me brother.
    Marxist. What fatuous bullshit. No wonder there is no sanity clause.
    As for the Proud Boys, their mums and their sisters, their girlfriends, and their wives, all of whom whose affections were returned with rape and a demand for a beer while the ladies are up, they may start something, but fighting one handed as they do …. their good hand always busy rooting around down the front of their own pants checking for manhood and spare change for the glory hole booths … yelling BOO! at them will scatter them into the underbrush.
    There’s a fortune to be made in cornering the market in canned pinto beans.

  363. In 1964 the (D) party abandoned their traditional principles and got the Civil Rights Act passed.
    The[y] did so with very strong support from the (R) party of the time.
    And then all the southern (D)’s became (R)’s.
    The missing step there is that the Southern Democrats got sucked in by Nixon. Who hadn’t been in Congress to vote on the Civil Rights Act, and so was untainted. A different Republican candidate would have had a harder time. And perhaps the racists in the South would have gone away and formed their own party — the neo-Whigs, perhaps?

  364. In 1964 the (D) party abandoned their traditional principles and got the Civil Rights Act passed.
    The[y] did so with very strong support from the (R) party of the time.
    And then all the southern (D)’s became (R)’s.
    The missing step there is that the Southern Democrats got sucked in by Nixon. Who hadn’t been in Congress to vote on the Civil Rights Act, and so was untainted. A different Republican candidate would have had a harder time. And perhaps the racists in the South would have gone away and formed their own party — the neo-Whigs, perhaps?

  365. “The first shot has been fired brother,”
    was that in Oakland, El Paso, Tallahassee, Jeffersontown, Pittsburgh, Orange Co, Charlottesville, Portland, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

  366. “The first shot has been fired brother,”
    was that in Oakland, El Paso, Tallahassee, Jeffersontown, Pittsburgh, Orange Co, Charlottesville, Portland, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc.etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

  367. Not the first time and not the last time last time by any means that violent white war vigilante militia mobs joined up with white racist police forces to murder and butcher black neighborhoods and burn them to the ground.
    The black population, natch, was blamed.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre
    Not many, if anyone, prosecuted.
    To this day, reparations are still vainly sought.
    I wonder if Barr and Trump will bomb the black neighborhoods from the air, as happened in Tulsa.
    Harding, though corrupt, like filthy animal Trump, but unlike subhuman trump did not travel to Tulsa, open his fly, and piss gasoline on the ruins.

  368. Not the first time and not the last time last time by any means that violent white war vigilante militia mobs joined up with white racist police forces to murder and butcher black neighborhoods and burn them to the ground.
    The black population, natch, was blamed.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre
    Not many, if anyone, prosecuted.
    To this day, reparations are still vainly sought.
    I wonder if Barr and Trump will bomb the black neighborhoods from the air, as happened in Tulsa.
    Harding, though corrupt, like filthy animal Trump, but unlike subhuman trump did not travel to Tulsa, open his fly, and piss gasoline on the ruins.

  369. Trump, the arsonist, peddles the same Marty bullshit that our cities have been occupied, sez all of Portland is on fire.
    https://www.bing.com/search?q=Portland+fire+department+Trump+ablaze&filters=tnTID%3a%22109517FF-55B3-4fe1-ADFB-D28236007036%22+tnVersion%3a%223683040%22+Segment%3a%22popularnow.carousel%22+tnCol%3a%225%22+tnOrder%3a%229a5c470a-9f74-4d24-a52e-20a9ccaacefc%22&efirst=5&form=HPNN01
    Portland Fire Department, ya know, front line Americans who actually put their asses in harm’s way, sez fuck off, you’re a stinking republican out-a-town, outside agitating lying gasbag.
    California sez it IS on fire, Trump sez what fires? Take a broom to the forest and quit getting the vapors, like some liberal seeing a photo of a guy with a gun.
    https://www.tmz.com/2018/01/19/las-vegas-shooting-stephen-paddock-room-dead-body-cameras/
    Photos of real life vapors:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41466859
    Marty gotta little steamed about some loudmouths leaning over a railing and shouting down an innocent trying to eat her potato salad in peace, not that I blame him, I wish I was there punching the jerks yelling at the diners.
    I mean … a photo of same is what steamed him.
    Think of all of the right wing filth in this country who enabled, encouraged that Las Vegas murderer to collect those weapons and ammo.
    Think of the vapors they will experience when decent Americans hunt them down.

  370. Trump, the arsonist, peddles the same Marty bullshit that our cities have been occupied, sez all of Portland is on fire.
    https://www.bing.com/search?q=Portland+fire+department+Trump+ablaze&filters=tnTID%3a%22109517FF-55B3-4fe1-ADFB-D28236007036%22+tnVersion%3a%223683040%22+Segment%3a%22popularnow.carousel%22+tnCol%3a%225%22+tnOrder%3a%229a5c470a-9f74-4d24-a52e-20a9ccaacefc%22&efirst=5&form=HPNN01
    Portland Fire Department, ya know, front line Americans who actually put their asses in harm’s way, sez fuck off, you’re a stinking republican out-a-town, outside agitating lying gasbag.
    California sez it IS on fire, Trump sez what fires? Take a broom to the forest and quit getting the vapors, like some liberal seeing a photo of a guy with a gun.
    https://www.tmz.com/2018/01/19/las-vegas-shooting-stephen-paddock-room-dead-body-cameras/
    Photos of real life vapors:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41466859
    Marty gotta little steamed about some loudmouths leaning over a railing and shouting down an innocent trying to eat her potato salad in peace, not that I blame him, I wish I was there punching the jerks yelling at the diners.
    I mean … a photo of same is what steamed him.
    Think of all of the right wing filth in this country who enabled, encouraged that Las Vegas murderer to collect those weapons and ammo.
    Think of the vapors they will experience when decent Americans hunt them down.

  373. The missing step there is that the Southern Democrats got sucked in by Nixon.
    Absolutely not. They did not get “sucked in” by anybody. They realized their place in the Democratic Party was a political dead end, and they and the conservative “movement” jointly initiated a concerted and very self conscious Maoist Long March to take over the Republican Party.
    And they have succeeded.
    People seem to be under the mistaken impression that the New Deal Coalition began to break up in the 60’s. In actuality, it first began to majorly fray in the late 30’s as the Southern Dems and the GOP teamed up to torpedo the New Deal in Congress.

  374. The missing step there is that the Southern Democrats got sucked in by Nixon.
    Absolutely not. They did not get “sucked in” by anybody. They realized their place in the Democratic Party was a political dead end, and they and the conservative “movement” jointly initiated a concerted and very self conscious Maoist Long March to take over the Republican Party.
    And they have succeeded.
    People seem to be under the mistaken impression that the New Deal Coalition began to break up in the 60’s. In actuality, it first began to majorly fray in the late 30’s as the Southern Dems and the GOP teamed up to torpedo the New Deal in Congress.

  375. Take a broom to the forest and quit getting the vapors
    Rake.
    The folks in CA were supposed to rake the forest. Like they do in Finland.

  376. Take a broom to the forest and quit getting the vapors
    Rake.
    The folks in CA were supposed to rake the forest. Like they do in Finland.

  377. I feel I should speak up in defense of Marty. I am very familiar with his core argument. I grew up in Detroit, and my (white) family and friends are Trump supporters (though most men are supporters, most women are not). I have formulated 3 articles of faith my people believe in:

    • all politicians are corrupt hypocrites
    • all politics is theatre
    • any reference to racism accuses me of being a racist

    Though you can replace “racism” with any other ism. The core idea is that any reference to white people is an attack on me, personally.
    This is why Marty pivots to a personal defense when the discussion turns to ism. It’s a personal attack. My people feel the same way.

  378. I feel I should speak up in defense of Marty. I am very familiar with his core argument. I grew up in Detroit, and my (white) family and friends are Trump supporters (though most men are supporters, most women are not). I have formulated 3 articles of faith my people believe in:

    • all politicians are corrupt hypocrites
    • all politics is theatre
    • any reference to racism accuses me of being a racist

    Though you can replace “racism” with any other ism. The core idea is that any reference to white people is an attack on me, personally.
    This is why Marty pivots to a personal defense when the discussion turns to ism. It’s a personal attack. My people feel the same way.

  379. Chezz Whiz – the hit dog yelps, Lady Macbeth doth protest too much, etc. etc.
    I’m done with people who want to burn the country down because they don’t want to be civil to POC/LGBTQ/women/disabled/etc.
    Their sense of self depends on being at the tippety-top of the food chain, and everyone else is food?
    F*ck that.

  380. Chezz Whiz – the hit dog yelps, Lady Macbeth doth protest too much, etc. etc.
    I’m done with people who want to burn the country down because they don’t want to be civil to POC/LGBTQ/women/disabled/etc.
    Their sense of self depends on being at the tippety-top of the food chain, and everyone else is food?
    F*ck that.

  383. In Colorado, we see this:
    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/8/31/1973842/-Sen-Cory-Gardner-attends-maskless-gun-range-BBQ-with-Republican-official-in-Kill-em-all-shirt
    So, why shouldn’t I purchase a semi-automatic AR-15, bump stock it, and have it converted to fully automatic and attend republican murderous fetes?
    Hanh?
    No PHOTOS of guns.
    Actual military grade weaponry designed expressly to slaughter human beings is what you see at Republican brown shirt picnics.

  384. In Colorado, we see this:
    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/8/31/1973842/-Sen-Cory-Gardner-attends-maskless-gun-range-BBQ-with-Republican-official-in-Kill-em-all-shirt
    So, why shouldn’t I purchase a semi-automatic AR-15, bump stock it, and have it converted to fully automatic and attend republican murderous fetes?
    Hanh?
    No PHOTOS of guns.
    Actual military grade weaponry designed expressly to slaughter human beings is what you see at Republican brown shirt picnics.

  385. Well, WW1 got really going when Belgium invaded Germany in 1914. And Hitler only started to shoot back after men in Polish uniforms raided a German radio station. So it’s pure marxist revisionism to claim that Germany had anything to do with either world war [/s]

  386. Well, WW1 got really going when Belgium invaded Germany in 1914. And Hitler only started to shoot back after men in Polish uniforms raided a German radio station. So it’s pure marxist revisionism to claim that Germany had anything to do with either world war [/s]

  391. I think what we should do is sit quietly and understand that we can’t know how they feel. We should just listen better and accept we should let them tell us what to do to improve their situation.
    What I want to point out here is that this is what people like “White Fragility” DiAngelo say we need to do, except she says we need to do it for black people.
    Like, exactly. Verbatim. Your comment here could be a quote from “White Fragility”.
    And this:
    he represents the grievances of the people who have been blamed by the Democratic party for all that time.
    Substitute any of the folks who have been “separated into a victim class” for white people and swap Republican for Democratic, and you could use this verbatim as well.
    You are simply separating white people – white males especially – into a separate victim class. Nobody represents them, nobody listens to them, everybody blames them for everything.
    So we are left with – what – competing lists of grievances? A contest about who has been treated the worst?
    The constituencies you are talking about here – rural whites in particular – *have representation in government that is proportionately greater than their numbers in the population*. Via the Senate, via the Electoral College. How is it that “nobody represents them”?
    And from their sense of grievance, they have delivered unto us the worst POTUS that has ever held the office. And likely another that is somewhere in the bottom 10%. All in the last 20 years.
    I completely understand and agree that white working people and rural communities in general have been taken for granted by the (D) party for at least the last 30 years. Probably beginning with the Clintons. The focus of the party *as an institution* has been on the larger cities.
    Policies, less so. But in terms of the focus of attention, rural and working class whites have a complaint with the (D) party.
    That was a strategic error, and was also simply wrong.
    But the (R) party is no friend to the people you claim to be concerned about. The (R) party is friendly to entrepreneurial capital, and that is pretty much it.
    All the people who are working their asses off and can’t afford health insurance, can’t save enough money to retire on, can’t scratch up $1,000 bucks in cash if their car craps out, let alone $10,000 if they have a medical emergency – the (R) party has nothing for them.
    Go get rich. Root hog or die. That is the (R) answer to those folks.
    Upthread, GFTNC says:

    You could, if you were feeling particularly heartless, say “more fool them”

    I suppose I must be feeling particularly heartless, because I do say that. If so, it’s because how freaking furious it makes me to see them lining up behind such an obvious and transparent fraud.
    I have no solution to offer. People will have to figure this out for themselves. Many, probably most of them, will not.
    Trump will probably lose the popular vote by single digit millions. Which is absurd.
    And in spite of that, he may well win the Electoral College. And then we will be well and truly rogered.
    Thank you, aggrieved white males.
    This is why Marty pivots to a personal defense when the discussion turns to ism. It’s a personal attack. My people feel the same way.
    Marty can speak for himself.
    The “ism” that people are generally talking about these days is racism. The thing they are generally saying about it, is that it’s ubiquitous. It’s a tendency, most people are prone to it, most people who are prone to it are likely not that aware of it.
    In general, in most cases there isn’t even any ill will involved.
    That’s what the argument generally is, about racism.
    How you (or they, or whoever) get a personal attack out of that escapes me. It’s the opposite of a personal attack.

  392. I think what we should do is sit quietly and understand that we can’t know how they feel. We should just listen better and accept we should let them tell us what to do to improve their situation.
    What I want to point out here is that this is what people like “White Fragility” DiAngelo say we need to do, except she says we need to do it for black people.
    Like, exactly. Verbatim. Your comment here could be a quote from “White Fragility”.
    And this:
    he represents the grievances of the people who have been blamed by the Democratic party for all that time.
    Substitute any of the folks who have been “separated into a victim class” for white people and swap Republican for Democratic, and you could use this verbatim as well.
    You are simply separating white people – white males especially – into a separate victim class. Nobody represents them, nobody listens to them, everybody blames them for everything.
    So we are left with – what – competing lists of grievances? A contest about who has been treated the worst?
    The constituencies you are talking about here – rural whites in particular – *have representation in government that is proportionately greater than their numbers in the population*. Via the Senate, via the Electoral College. How is it that “nobody represents them”?
    And from their sense of grievance, they have delivered unto us the worst POTUS that has ever held the office. And likely another that is somewhere in the bottom 10%. All in the last 20 years.
    I completely understand and agree that white working people and rural communities in general have been taken for granted by the (D) party for at least the last 30 years. Probably beginning with the Clintons. The focus of the party *as an institution* has been on the larger cities.
    Policies, less so. But in terms of the focus of attention, rural and working class whites have a complaint with the (D) party.
    That was a strategic error, and was also simply wrong.
    But the (R) party is no friend to the people you claim to be concerned about. The (R) party is friendly to entrepreneurial capital, and that is pretty much it.
    All the people who are working their asses off and can’t afford health insurance, can’t save enough money to retire on, can’t scratch up $1,000 bucks in cash if their car craps out, let alone $10,000 if they have a medical emergency – the (R) party has nothing for them.
    Go get rich. Root hog or die. That is the (R) answer to those folks.
    Upthread, GFTNC says:

    You could, if you were feeling particularly heartless, say “more fool them”

    I suppose I must be feeling particularly heartless, because I do say that. If so, it’s because how freaking furious it makes me to see them lining up behind such an obvious and transparent fraud.
    I have no solution to offer. People will have to figure this out for themselves. Many, probably most of them, will not.
    Trump will probably lose the popular vote by single digit millions. Which is absurd.
    And in spite of that, he may well win the Electoral College. And then we will be well and truly rogered.
    Thank you, aggrieved white males.
    This is why Marty pivots to a personal defense when the discussion turns to ism. It’s a personal attack. My people feel the same way.
    Marty can speak for himself.
    The “ism” that people are generally talking about these days is racism. The thing they are generally saying about it, is that it’s ubiquitous. It’s a tendency, most people are prone to it, most people who are prone to it are likely not that aware of it.
    In general, in most cases there isn’t even any ill will involved.
    That’s what the argument generally is, about racism.
    How you (or they, or whoever) get a personal attack out of that escapes me. It’s the opposite of a personal attack.

  393. How you (or they, or whoever) get a personal attack out of that escapes me. It’s the opposite of a personal attack.
    Explanation: if it’s ubiquitous, then I have it, too. So saying it’s ubiquitous is saying that *I* am a racist. (And that everybody else is, too. But that’s irrelevant — you said I was.) I don’t accept that I might be. Even if I did, it’s still a pejorative. That makes it a personal attack.
    Not saying there aren’t holes in the logic you could drive a truck thru. But that’s how they get there.

  394. How you (or they, or whoever) get a personal attack out of that escapes me. It’s the opposite of a personal attack.
    Explanation: if it’s ubiquitous, then I have it, too. So saying it’s ubiquitous is saying that *I* am a racist. (And that everybody else is, too. But that’s irrelevant — you said I was.) I don’t accept that I might be. Even if I did, it’s still a pejorative. That makes it a personal attack.
    Not saying there aren’t holes in the logic you could drive a truck thru. But that’s how they get there.

  397. Explanation: if it’s ubiquitous, then I have it, too. So saying it’s ubiquitous is saying that *I* am a racist.
    I’ve tried the ‘what you said/did/etc was racist’ and make pains to say that I’m not saying the person is racist, that’s something for them to decide. I’ve also tried the above on ubiquity, often adding an explicit statement that I too am racist as well, to be raised in the US or indeed perhaps in the 1st world is to be marinated in it and you don’t escape it because you can’t escape it. Doesn’t seem to work, the moment the topic comes up, it’s shields up.
    I guess this is why privilege is used, to somehow make people pause before they go on red alert. However, judging from recent discussions, the word has gotten attached to racism. Possibly by people using it as a cudgel on others, but when I talk about it, I try to make it clear that I have to ‘check my privilege’ as well.
    It’s also a reason why I like links: It’s easier to talk about the article etc as problematic rather than to talk about the person. That isn’t perfect either, it is easy to take the attack on the piece as an attack on the person.

  398. Explanation: if it’s ubiquitous, then I have it, too. So saying it’s ubiquitous is saying that *I* am a racist.
    I’ve tried the ‘what you said/did/etc was racist’ and make pains to say that I’m not saying the person is racist, that’s something for them to decide. I’ve also tried the above on ubiquity, often adding an explicit statement that I too am racist as well, to be raised in the US or indeed perhaps in the 1st world is to be marinated in it and you don’t escape it because you can’t escape it. Doesn’t seem to work, the moment the topic comes up, it’s shields up.
    I guess this is why privilege is used, to somehow make people pause before they go on red alert. However, judging from recent discussions, the word has gotten attached to racism. Possibly by people using it as a cudgel on others, but when I talk about it, I try to make it clear that I have to ‘check my privilege’ as well.
    It’s also a reason why I like links: It’s easier to talk about the article etc as problematic rather than to talk about the person. That isn’t perfect either, it is easy to take the attack on the piece as an attack on the person.

  399. This article seems relevant: “Research published this week in the Proceedings of the National Academy of the Sciences articulates the link between what author Larry Bartels of Vanderbilt University describes as “ethnic antagonism” and views that run contrary to core democratic principles.”

  400. This article seems relevant: “Research published this week in the Proceedings of the National Academy of the Sciences articulates the link between what author Larry Bartels of Vanderbilt University describes as “ethnic antagonism” and views that run contrary to core democratic principles.”

  401. These are not the words of a president who is readily going to allow the counting of the popular vote, or even accede to its being fairly cast.
    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1301100620741595136
    The incitement is plain.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/09/trump-support-kyle-rittenhouse-election-violence.html?via=homepage_taps_top
    …in a matter of one short week, Trump has seeded the terrifying notion that this riot does not come dressed in natty suits and good haircuts. He is implying, if not stating outright, that the legal work need not be conducted by lawyers at all, and that the conduct itself need not be lawful, so long as the ends are just. His supporters, he insists, day after day, are the only true Americans, and he keeps telling them that as patriots they are free from whatever norms once governed how we protest, how we enforce the law, and also how we vote. And as gun-toting countrymen, he says, aloud, they are well within their rights to decide when actual law enforcement is not doing its job correctly, and they can cross state lines with weapons of war to pick up the slack themselves. None of this is surprising for a man who could not bring himself to disavow Nazis marching in the streets of Charlottesville, Virginia, three years ago, but it is a tectonic shift in absolution, and also in incitement. It’s also a red flag for anyone who thinks this type of rhetoric won’t be directed at voters, voting, and ballot counting, in a few short weeks….

  402. These are not the words of a president who is readily going to allow the counting of the popular vote, or even accede to its being fairly cast.
    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1301100620741595136
    The incitement is plain.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/09/trump-support-kyle-rittenhouse-election-violence.html?via=homepage_taps_top
    …in a matter of one short week, Trump has seeded the terrifying notion that this riot does not come dressed in natty suits and good haircuts. He is implying, if not stating outright, that the legal work need not be conducted by lawyers at all, and that the conduct itself need not be lawful, so long as the ends are just. His supporters, he insists, day after day, are the only true Americans, and he keeps telling them that as patriots they are free from whatever norms once governed how we protest, how we enforce the law, and also how we vote. And as gun-toting countrymen, he says, aloud, they are well within their rights to decide when actual law enforcement is not doing its job correctly, and they can cross state lines with weapons of war to pick up the slack themselves. None of this is surprising for a man who could not bring himself to disavow Nazis marching in the streets of Charlottesville, Virginia, three years ago, but it is a tectonic shift in absolution, and also in incitement. It’s also a red flag for anyone who thinks this type of rhetoric won’t be directed at voters, voting, and ballot counting, in a few short weeks….

  403. I think russells 1:16 is mostly a very thoughtful explanation of my earlier comment. It is a little insulting he thought the parallel with Diangelo, or nous, was accidental. Or the creation of an equivalent victim class was lost on me. But yes all good points.
    Racist is a pejorative term. Period. You can’t use it to vociferously criticize actual racists (KKK etc.) And then call me a racist, no matter how backhanded, and not expect a reaction. Thats how they get there.
    Privilege is simply a poor concept. Ruch people have privilege, middle class people have some privilege. To pretend poor people of any color have privilege is nonsensical.

  404. I think russells 1:16 is mostly a very thoughtful explanation of my earlier comment. It is a little insulting he thought the parallel with Diangelo, or nous, was accidental. Or the creation of an equivalent victim class was lost on me. But yes all good points.
    Racist is a pejorative term. Period. You can’t use it to vociferously criticize actual racists (KKK etc.) And then call me a racist, no matter how backhanded, and not expect a reaction. Thats how they get there.
    Privilege is simply a poor concept. Ruch people have privilege, middle class people have some privilege. To pretend poor people of any color have privilege is nonsensical.

  405. it is the biggest danger in this election that the mail in ballots will mostly determine the outcome. It just means we have finally nullified the idea of an election day. Which seems wrong to me, legally we have one of those. It creates the opportunity for fraud, either way. Actual illegal votes and falsely denying votes because the process can’t be effectively monitored. No one can attest to the chain of custody for each ballot. No one knows if their ballot was even submitted correctly.
    The legitimacy of any election depends on the belief that it counted each vote accurately. I dont even believe that will happen in 2020.
    Democrats will cheat, Republicans will cheat, both sides will question the outcome and the loser will contest it in court based on anecdoral evidence of ballot harvesting, paying for peoples ballots, lost ballots, ballots that arrive late etc. It won’t be pretty.

  406. it is the biggest danger in this election that the mail in ballots will mostly determine the outcome. It just means we have finally nullified the idea of an election day. Which seems wrong to me, legally we have one of those. It creates the opportunity for fraud, either way. Actual illegal votes and falsely denying votes because the process can’t be effectively monitored. No one can attest to the chain of custody for each ballot. No one knows if their ballot was even submitted correctly.
    The legitimacy of any election depends on the belief that it counted each vote accurately. I dont even believe that will happen in 2020.
    Democrats will cheat, Republicans will cheat, both sides will question the outcome and the loser will contest it in court based on anecdoral evidence of ballot harvesting, paying for peoples ballots, lost ballots, ballots that arrive late etc. It won’t be pretty.

  407. Privilege is simply a poor concept. Ruch people have privilege, middle class people have some privilege. To pretend poor people of any color have privilege is nonsensical.
    privilege is a fine concept. the problem might be elsewhere.
    time after time, when the topic comes up, you insist that “privilege” is about wealth: rich vs poor. but it’s not. no definition of the word restricts it to just wealth. certainly wealth is one way to be privileged: your money can open doors for you, or keep them shut. but the word is more general than that.

  408. Privilege is simply a poor concept. Ruch people have privilege, middle class people have some privilege. To pretend poor people of any color have privilege is nonsensical.
    privilege is a fine concept. the problem might be elsewhere.
    time after time, when the topic comes up, you insist that “privilege” is about wealth: rich vs poor. but it’s not. no definition of the word restricts it to just wealth. certainly wealth is one way to be privileged: your money can open doors for you, or keep them shut. but the word is more general than that.

  409. So Marty, if someone says something that seems to be unreflective and misunderstands some aspect of the black experience, how should one address that? And what should one call that?

  410. So Marty, if someone says something that seems to be unreflective and misunderstands some aspect of the black experience, how should one address that? And what should one call that?

  411. “Doesn’t seem to work, the moment the topic comes up, it’s shields up.”
    That’s because they’re snowflakes.
    Which, (coincidentally?) are the purest white.

  412. “Doesn’t seem to work, the moment the topic comes up, it’s shields up.”
    That’s because they’re snowflakes.
    Which, (coincidentally?) are the purest white.

  413. IDK, lj, what do we call it if a black person fails to understand some aspect of the white experience? Not snark. It happens. What word would you use?

  414. IDK, lj, what do we call it if a black person fails to understand some aspect of the white experience? Not snark. It happens. What word would you use?

  415. I’m not sure why Marty’s comments drive the conversation here. He denies basic reality, specifically that hundreds of years of treating black and brown people as second class citizens has had a lasting impact on our culture generally, one that manifests itself in disparate treatment at the hands of the police, and that Republicans have suppressed the votes and have solicited and received illegal assistance from foreign governments in elections.
    I have no patience for both siders or people who deny truth. Not from the left; not from the right.

  416. I’m not sure why Marty’s comments drive the conversation here. He denies basic reality, specifically that hundreds of years of treating black and brown people as second class citizens has had a lasting impact on our culture generally, one that manifests itself in disparate treatment at the hands of the police, and that Republicans have suppressed the votes and have solicited and received illegal assistance from foreign governments in elections.
    I have no patience for both siders or people who deny truth. Not from the left; not from the right.

  419. The folks in CA were supposed to rake the forest. Like they do in Finland.
    A large part of the forests in CA are owned by the federal government. Try raking there and see how quick BLM or the USFS is all over your ass.

  420. The folks in CA were supposed to rake the forest. Like they do in Finland.
    A large part of the forests in CA are owned by the federal government. Try raking there and see how quick BLM or the USFS is all over your ass.

  421. Marty, on mail ballots: “It creates the opportunity for fraud, either way. Actual illegal votes and falsely denying votes because the process can’t be effectively monitored.”
    Marty, are you an election security expert? Have you studied the details in a real vote-by-mail state (CO, HI, OR, UT, or WA)? Colorado consistently comes out on top in studies of both security and accuracy by the experts, not just against other vote-by-mail states, but against all of the “traditional” states as well. One big reason that happens is the process is much more effectively monitored than anyone else’s.
    When you look at the history of election fraud, one thing that jumps out is that effective fraud — demonstrably stealing elections — happens at the wholesale level, not at the retail (individual voters) level. Contemporary vote-by-mail systems are designed to, among other goals, make wholesale fraud very, very hard.

  422. Marty, on mail ballots: “It creates the opportunity for fraud, either way. Actual illegal votes and falsely denying votes because the process can’t be effectively monitored.”
    Marty, are you an election security expert? Have you studied the details in a real vote-by-mail state (CO, HI, OR, UT, or WA)? Colorado consistently comes out on top in studies of both security and accuracy by the experts, not just against other vote-by-mail states, but against all of the “traditional” states as well. One big reason that happens is the process is much more effectively monitored than anyone else’s.
    When you look at the history of election fraud, one thing that jumps out is that effective fraud — demonstrably stealing elections — happens at the wholesale level, not at the retail (individual voters) level. Contemporary vote-by-mail systems are designed to, among other goals, make wholesale fraud very, very hard.

  423. Marty, I’d like to think that I would address them the same way. Though I think there is an asymmetry, I feel like black people probably know a lot more about many aspects of the white experience than white people know about most aspects of the black experience. I should add, my experiences are from my time in university for the most part, I’ve been overseas almost all of the rest of that time in surroundings where there are not a lot of African-Americans. I have been in Asia, and if people write things that I think are mistaken about aspects of Asia, I try to explain why I think they are wrong and give links in case they are interested in following up. I’m sure I’ve let my temper get the best of me, it’s unavoidable, but if someone responds honestly and acknowledges the points I make, I try to acknowledge the points they make.

  424. Marty, I’d like to think that I would address them the same way. Though I think there is an asymmetry, I feel like black people probably know a lot more about many aspects of the white experience than white people know about most aspects of the black experience. I should add, my experiences are from my time in university for the most part, I’ve been overseas almost all of the rest of that time in surroundings where there are not a lot of African-Americans. I have been in Asia, and if people write things that I think are mistaken about aspects of Asia, I try to explain why I think they are wrong and give links in case they are interested in following up. I’m sure I’ve let my temper get the best of me, it’s unavoidable, but if someone responds honestly and acknowledges the points I make, I try to acknowledge the points they make.

  425. It is a little insulting…
    No insult intended, believe me.
    I was just so pleased with myself for seeing the parallel – after several hours – that I was compelled to write about it. At 1:00 AM.
    My skull is thick, but things sink in eventually.
    Prejudice is when people make assumptions about you based on some incidental factor. How you are dressed, your zip code, your accent, your skin color.
    What word would you use?
    Words are tricky, but we don’t have much else to work with. So let’s give it a try.
    People make assumptions about other people based on incidental factors. How they dress, where they live, if they have an accent and what accent they have.
    Skin color.
    Privilege is when that prejudice is to your advantage.
    Black people experience the opposite of that. A lot.
    So do other people. Poor people, brown people, people with unusual accents, people that “seem gay”.
    Sometimes even rich people, believe it or not. Although their upside generally outweighs it.
    It’s not a zero-sum game. Black people can have whatever the opposite of privilege is. And poor people can, too.
    Both groups have legitimate complaints.
    As far as I know, we don’t have a specific word for not understanding some aspect of someone else’s experience. So we use words that are more or less analogous.
    All analogies fail at some point, so that’s problematic. Words also bring along their own baggage, so that’s problematic, too.
    If “privilege” offends, pick a different word. Or don’t try to boil it down to one word, just explain your meaning more thoroughly.
    What people mean when they talk about “white privilege” is that people make assumptions about black people based on the color of their skin, and those assumptions are not to the advantage of the black people. White people, not having black skin, are not subject to those assumptions.
    People *also* make assumptions about poor people, based on whatever it is about the person that indicates that they are poor. And those assumptions are quite often not to the advantage of the poor person. In that case, it’s not about skin color, but about money.
    Both are unfair. It’s not a contest.
    Racism, as far as I can tell, just means making assumptions about people based on the color of their skin. Unfortunately, it is applied to situations as various as KKK lynchings, and asking an awkward question about a black person’s hair. And everything in between.
    So maybe we need a more precise vocabulary to talk about it.
    But we don’t have that. So we have to fall back on being patient with each other and not getting all reactive whenever a sensitive topic comes up.

  426. It is a little insulting…
    No insult intended, believe me.
    I was just so pleased with myself for seeing the parallel – after several hours – that I was compelled to write about it. At 1:00 AM.
    My skull is thick, but things sink in eventually.
    Prejudice is when people make assumptions about you based on some incidental factor. How you are dressed, your zip code, your accent, your skin color.
    What word would you use?
    Words are tricky, but we don’t have much else to work with. So let’s give it a try.
    People make assumptions about other people based on incidental factors. How they dress, where they live, if they have an accent and what accent they have.
    Skin color.
    Privilege is when that prejudice is to your advantage.
    Black people experience the opposite of that. A lot.
    So do other people. Poor people, brown people, people with unusual accents, people that “seem gay”.
    Sometimes even rich people, believe it or not. Although their upside generally outweighs it.
    It’s not a zero-sum game. Black people can have whatever the opposite of privilege is. And poor people can, too.
    Both groups have legitimate complaints.
    As far as I know, we don’t have a specific word for not understanding some aspect of someone else’s experience. So we use words that are more or less analogous.
    All analogies fail at some point, so that’s problematic. Words also bring along their own baggage, so that’s problematic, too.
    If “privilege” offends, pick a different word. Or don’t try to boil it down to one word, just explain your meaning more thoroughly.
    What people mean when they talk about “white privilege” is that people make assumptions about black people based on the color of their skin, and those assumptions are not to the advantage of the black people. White people, not having black skin, are not subject to those assumptions.
    People *also* make assumptions about poor people, based on whatever it is about the person that indicates that they are poor. And those assumptions are quite often not to the advantage of the poor person. In that case, it’s not about skin color, but about money.
    Both are unfair. It’s not a contest.
    Racism, as far as I can tell, just means making assumptions about people based on the color of their skin. Unfortunately, it is applied to situations as various as KKK lynchings, and asking an awkward question about a black person’s hair. And everything in between.
    So maybe we need a more precise vocabulary to talk about it.
    But we don’t have that. So we have to fall back on being patient with each other and not getting all reactive whenever a sensitive topic comes up.

  427. This may be related to Donald’s citation
    https://doi.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fxge0000605
    which points out that socially liberal participants shifted the blame on poor whites rather than being more sympathetic and this may be a problem. However, if you agree that things have to change, I wonder where disapproval needs to be placed.
    I also was looking thru W. B. DuBois’s Black Reconstruction for a discussion of the ‘wages of whiteness’ and found this:
    It must be remembered that the white group of laborers, while they received a low wage, were compensated in part by a sort of public and psychological wage. They were given public deference and tides of courtesy because they were white. They were admitted freely with all classes of white people to public functions, public parks, and the best schools. The police were drawn from their ranks, and the courts, dependent upon their votes, treated them with such leniency as to encourage lawlessness. Their vote selected public officials, and while this had small effect upon the economic situation, it had great effect upon their personal treatment and the deference shown them. White schoolhouses were the best in the community, and conspicuously placed, and they cost anywhere from twice to ten times as much per capita as the colored schools. The newspapers specialized on news that flattered the poor whites and almost utterly ignored the Negro except in crime and ridicule.
    On the other hand, in the same way, the Negro was subject to public insult; was afraid of mobs; was liable to the jibes of children and the unreasoning fears of white women; and was compelled almost continuously to submit to various badges of inferiority. The result of this was that the wages of both classes could be kept low, the whites fearing to be supplanted by Negro labor, the Negroes always being threatened by the substitution of white labor.
    The ‘wages of whiteness’ always got me because it sounded like ‘the wages of sin’, which is the punishment one gets for being bad. But if one thinks about it, it could be that the white lower class is having to pay for the sins of the system.

  428. This may be related to Donald’s citation
    https://doi.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fxge0000605
    which points out that socially liberal participants shifted the blame on poor whites rather than being more sympathetic and this may be a problem. However, if you agree that things have to change, I wonder where disapproval needs to be placed.
    I also was looking thru W. B. DuBois’s Black Reconstruction for a discussion of the ‘wages of whiteness’ and found this:
    It must be remembered that the white group of laborers, while they received a low wage, were compensated in part by a sort of public and psychological wage. They were given public deference and tides of courtesy because they were white. They were admitted freely with all classes of white people to public functions, public parks, and the best schools. The police were drawn from their ranks, and the courts, dependent upon their votes, treated them with such leniency as to encourage lawlessness. Their vote selected public officials, and while this had small effect upon the economic situation, it had great effect upon their personal treatment and the deference shown them. White schoolhouses were the best in the community, and conspicuously placed, and they cost anywhere from twice to ten times as much per capita as the colored schools. The newspapers specialized on news that flattered the poor whites and almost utterly ignored the Negro except in crime and ridicule.
    On the other hand, in the same way, the Negro was subject to public insult; was afraid of mobs; was liable to the jibes of children and the unreasoning fears of white women; and was compelled almost continuously to submit to various badges of inferiority. The result of this was that the wages of both classes could be kept low, the whites fearing to be supplanted by Negro labor, the Negroes always being threatened by the substitution of white labor.
    The ‘wages of whiteness’ always got me because it sounded like ‘the wages of sin’, which is the punishment one gets for being bad. But if one thinks about it, it could be that the white lower class is having to pay for the sins of the system.

  435. Seaside Brewing:
    The next day the local paper wrote an article, detailing parts of that discussion at the council meeting, and almost immediately, the phone and internet threats began pouring in from this group and its supporters. An event was posted by this particular group from the rally threatening us and called for an open carry rally to take place at our brewery this upcoming Sunday in an obvious effort to intimidate, terrorize, and punish the brewery for speaking up for our community’s safety and exercising our 1st Amendment rights to free speech. [Etc…]
    https://www.facebook.com/SeasideBrewingCompany/posts/3377595582278803

  436. Seaside Brewing:
    The next day the local paper wrote an article, detailing parts of that discussion at the council meeting, and almost immediately, the phone and internet threats began pouring in from this group and its supporters. An event was posted by this particular group from the rally threatening us and called for an open carry rally to take place at our brewery this upcoming Sunday in an obvious effort to intimidate, terrorize, and punish the brewery for speaking up for our community’s safety and exercising our 1st Amendment rights to free speech. [Etc…]
    https://www.facebook.com/SeasideBrewingCompany/posts/3377595582278803

  437. and white privilege specifically is the relative advantage whites have due to the deeply-rooted racial biases – conscious or unconscious, written or unwritten – of a white-majority society.
    or maybe it’s Marxism.

  438. and white privilege specifically is the relative advantage whites have due to the deeply-rooted racial biases – conscious or unconscious, written or unwritten – of a white-majority society.
    or maybe it’s Marxism.

  439. Seaside Brewing
    If you want a conversation, fine. Let’s have a conversation.
    If you have complaints and grievances, fine. Bring them to the table.
    If you bring your guns to the table, that is not a conversation. It is a threat.
    The rest of us are not going to listen to your complaints, if you express them by pointing your fucking guns at us.
    If you actually want a war, you will be accommodated. If you want to be heard, the guns are going to drown out anything you have to say, no matter how legitimate.
    Threats are not conversation. They render any legitimate point you might want to make illegitimate.
    Leave the fucking guns at home.

  440. Seaside Brewing
    If you want a conversation, fine. Let’s have a conversation.
    If you have complaints and grievances, fine. Bring them to the table.
    If you bring your guns to the table, that is not a conversation. It is a threat.
    The rest of us are not going to listen to your complaints, if you express them by pointing your fucking guns at us.
    If you actually want a war, you will be accommodated. If you want to be heard, the guns are going to drown out anything you have to say, no matter how legitimate.
    Threats are not conversation. They render any legitimate point you might want to make illegitimate.
    Leave the fucking guns at home.

  441. I suppose I must be feeling particularly heartless, because I do say that.
    Yup, “Russell the Heartless”. That’s really going to fly. We’ll keep it in storage for when you overcome your scruples about ROTU 🙂
    I’m not sure why Marty’s comments drive the conversation here.
    They don’t always, and no doubt others share your puzzlement. But if we didn’t debate views like Marty’s, this really would be the equivalent of an echo chamber, and that gets nobody any further forward. McKinney, and I think Marty too, have said they have occasionally changed or modified their views because of discussions here. I eschewed magical thinking a while back, but I still think it’s worth debating with people of goodwill with whom you disagree. Nationally, we see where the abandonment of that principle gets us.

  442. I suppose I must be feeling particularly heartless, because I do say that.
    Yup, “Russell the Heartless”. That’s really going to fly. We’ll keep it in storage for when you overcome your scruples about ROTU 🙂
    I’m not sure why Marty’s comments drive the conversation here.
    They don’t always, and no doubt others share your puzzlement. But if we didn’t debate views like Marty’s, this really would be the equivalent of an echo chamber, and that gets nobody any further forward. McKinney, and I think Marty too, have said they have occasionally changed or modified their views because of discussions here. I eschewed magical thinking a while back, but I still think it’s worth debating with people of goodwill with whom you disagree. Nationally, we see where the abandonment of that principle gets us.

  445. I found this via google search, being unable to open facebook at work:
    https://www.seasidesignal.com/news/local-news/seen-from-seaside-open-carry-protesters-rattle-restaurateur-city-council/article_ed1332c4-e6d0-11ea-8162-0ffe0e82bef7.html
    The comments (all 2):

    GLETNE
    David Gletne Aug 26, 2020 7:55pm
    I live down the coast in Florence. Those punk thugs tearing up Portland will show up in Seaside long before Florence. A huge police force has been unable to contain them, Seaside will be easy pickings. I am a former combat Veteran, and dont condone young untrained kids let loose on society with rofles, but I’d prefer someone willing to defend the public, then someone who seeks to attack them. If I hear oneore time those kids attempting anarchy are peaceful protesters for social change, Ill vomit. I truely hope Trump wins in Nov. If liberals decide to increase the anarchy ( which they already approve of), then imagine 70 million armed citizens taking to the streets, many being Combat exp’d. With Law Enforcement and most military at their side.
    Willsea1
    William Quigley Aug 28, 2020 8:32am
    I will second that , Police need all the help they can get , they are out numbered and can only watch out for themselves . Nothing wrong with open carry in Oregon . Do you want to get kicked in the head or blind sided with a skate board while exercising your freedom of expression. I think not

    I think these people are being honest when they say this stuff. I think they’re deeply wrong, but they do believe what they’re saying.
    I don’t know why they think Democrats support anarchists. I guess it’s selective media consumption or something.
    I don’t know why they think differentiating rioters and looters from peaceful protesters is actually conflating them. I don’t know why the don’t think the people showing up with guns are actually creating more chaos and violence than there otherwise would be. I don’t see how the Proud Boys and the like aren’t as thuggish as the other people causing trouble when protests devolve into rioting, looting, and vandalism.
    I don’t see how any of it means there are no such things as peaceful protests or legitimate causes.

  446. I found this via google search, being unable to open facebook at work:
    https://www.seasidesignal.com/news/local-news/seen-from-seaside-open-carry-protesters-rattle-restaurateur-city-council/article_ed1332c4-e6d0-11ea-8162-0ffe0e82bef7.html
    The comments (all 2):

    GLETNE
    David Gletne Aug 26, 2020 7:55pm
    I live down the coast in Florence. Those punk thugs tearing up Portland will show up in Seaside long before Florence. A huge police force has been unable to contain them, Seaside will be easy pickings. I am a former combat Veteran, and dont condone young untrained kids let loose on society with rofles, but I’d prefer someone willing to defend the public, then someone who seeks to attack them. If I hear oneore time those kids attempting anarchy are peaceful protesters for social change, Ill vomit. I truely hope Trump wins in Nov. If liberals decide to increase the anarchy ( which they already approve of), then imagine 70 million armed citizens taking to the streets, many being Combat exp’d. With Law Enforcement and most military at their side.
    Willsea1
    William Quigley Aug 28, 2020 8:32am
    I will second that , Police need all the help they can get , they are out numbered and can only watch out for themselves . Nothing wrong with open carry in Oregon . Do you want to get kicked in the head or blind sided with a skate board while exercising your freedom of expression. I think not

    I think these people are being honest when they say this stuff. I think they’re deeply wrong, but they do believe what they’re saying.
    I don’t know why they think Democrats support anarchists. I guess it’s selective media consumption or something.
    I don’t know why they think differentiating rioters and looters from peaceful protesters is actually conflating them. I don’t know why the don’t think the people showing up with guns are actually creating more chaos and violence than there otherwise would be. I don’t see how the Proud Boys and the like aren’t as thuggish as the other people causing trouble when protests devolve into rioting, looting, and vandalism.
    I don’t see how any of it means there are no such things as peaceful protests or legitimate causes.

  449. it is the biggest danger in this election that the mail in ballots will mostly determine the outcome. It just means we have finally nullified the idea of an election day. Which seems wrong to me, legally we have one of those. It creates the opportunity for fraud, either way.
    So what you’re saying is, we must eliminate ALL mail and absentee balloting. (Including for members of the military stationed overseas.) Anything less remains an unacceptable risk.
    Or, if you’re not saying that, where is your threshold for how many mail-in ballots are acceptable? (Or is it not the number, but just whether they influence the outcome? And for which races?) What are acceptable criteria for getting to vote by mail? Illness? Business travel? (And how would that differentiate between out of town on business and stuck at work during polling hours?) Personal travel?
    The reality is, we’ve done mail-in balloting since the Civil War. With no indication of significant fraud. Places like Idaho do 100% mail-in balloting. Likewise without significant problems.
    Now if you have concerns about the ability of some places to handle substantially more mail-in ballots than they have had to cope with in the past**, that would be different. But that doesn’t seem to be your point.
    ** Mostly those would be counting delays. Which also isn’t really a problem, for those with the patience to wait for the results, rather than demanding instant gratification.

  450. it is the biggest danger in this election that the mail in ballots will mostly determine the outcome. It just means we have finally nullified the idea of an election day. Which seems wrong to me, legally we have one of those. It creates the opportunity for fraud, either way.
    So what you’re saying is, we must eliminate ALL mail and absentee balloting. (Including for members of the military stationed overseas.) Anything less remains an unacceptable risk.
    Or, if you’re not saying that, where is your threshold for how many mail-in ballots are acceptable? (Or is it not the number, but just whether they influence the outcome? And for which races?) What are acceptable criteria for getting to vote by mail? Illness? Business travel? (And how would that differentiate between out of town on business and stuck at work during polling hours?) Personal travel?
    The reality is, we’ve done mail-in balloting since the Civil War. With no indication of significant fraud. Places like Idaho do 100% mail-in balloting. Likewise without significant problems.
    Now if you have concerns about the ability of some places to handle substantially more mail-in ballots than they have had to cope with in the past**, that would be different. But that doesn’t seem to be your point.
    ** Mostly those would be counting delays. Which also isn’t really a problem, for those with the patience to wait for the results, rather than demanding instant gratification.

  451. I don’t see how any of it means there are no such things as peaceful protests or legitimate causes.
    IMO: they don’t want to talk about the causes because the causes are imaginary and were invented by liberals to keep True Americans™ like themselves down.
    but they truly believe liberals are out to kill them and America (because that’s what Trump, Fox et al sells them), and they love the righteous “culture war” idea. so when the violent dipshits play into their favorite narrative by making it look like there’s a war on, they perk right up.

  452. I don’t see how any of it means there are no such things as peaceful protests or legitimate causes.
    IMO: they don’t want to talk about the causes because the causes are imaginary and were invented by liberals to keep True Americans™ like themselves down.
    but they truly believe liberals are out to kill them and America (because that’s what Trump, Fox et al sells them), and they love the righteous “culture war” idea. so when the violent dipshits play into their favorite narrative by making it look like there’s a war on, they perk right up.

  453. I also want to address this:

    it is the biggest danger in this election that the mail in ballots will mostly determine the outcome. It just means we have finally nullified the idea of an election day. Which seems wrong to me, legally we have one of those.

    Election day is November 3, 2020. That *is not* the day on which the POTUS and VPOTUS will be elected. The election of POTUS and VPOTUS in the United States is a multiple step process, extending over months.
    Early voting – in person or by mail – begins as soon as 46 days before election day. In some states, voting by mail is the preferred method. In HI, it is the only method available.
    However vote are cast, the process allows another month for disputes and recounts. Those must be resolved by December 8.
    And, however votes are cast, the actual election of the POTUS and VPOTUS will take place when the electors cast *their* votes. That happens on December 14.
    Those votes are forwarded to the Senate, and must by law be received by December 23.
    They are counted in the Senate on Jan 6, and the new POTUS takes office on Jan 20, 2021.
    There’s a good discussion here.
    There is no expectation, by law or in practice, that all votes will be received and completely counted by November 3. Not this year, not any year. The process allows for, and in fact expects, that there will be disputes and recounts and late arrivals, all of which may extend as much as a month beyond the nominal Election Day.
    And none of it is baked until the EC vote.
    Voting by mail has been done, successfully, in many states, for years and years and years. This year, a lot of people won’t want to go to a polling place, because COVID. So, we’ll have a lot more votes cast by mail.
    There is nothing suspicious about that, and nothing wrong with it.
    There are lots of hypothetical cases that could be problematic. There are no realistic cases that have proved to be problematic, or are likely to be problematic this year.

  454. I also want to address this:

    it is the biggest danger in this election that the mail in ballots will mostly determine the outcome. It just means we have finally nullified the idea of an election day. Which seems wrong to me, legally we have one of those.

    Election day is November 3, 2020. That *is not* the day on which the POTUS and VPOTUS will be elected. The election of POTUS and VPOTUS in the United States is a multiple step process, extending over months.
    Early voting – in person or by mail – begins as soon as 46 days before election day. In some states, voting by mail is the preferred method. In HI, it is the only method available.
    However vote are cast, the process allows another month for disputes and recounts. Those must be resolved by December 8.
    And, however votes are cast, the actual election of the POTUS and VPOTUS will take place when the electors cast *their* votes. That happens on December 14.
    Those votes are forwarded to the Senate, and must by law be received by December 23.
    They are counted in the Senate on Jan 6, and the new POTUS takes office on Jan 20, 2021.
    There’s a good discussion here.
    There is no expectation, by law or in practice, that all votes will be received and completely counted by November 3. Not this year, not any year. The process allows for, and in fact expects, that there will be disputes and recounts and late arrivals, all of which may extend as much as a month beyond the nominal Election Day.
    And none of it is baked until the EC vote.
    Voting by mail has been done, successfully, in many states, for years and years and years. This year, a lot of people won’t want to go to a polling place, because COVID. So, we’ll have a lot more votes cast by mail.
    There is nothing suspicious about that, and nothing wrong with it.
    There are lots of hypothetical cases that could be problematic. There are no realistic cases that have proved to be problematic, or are likely to be problematic this year.

  455. I think these people are being honest when they say this stuff. I think they’re deeply wrong, but they do believe what they’re saying.
    Me too.
    I don’t know why they think Democrats support anarchists.
    Because that’s what they’re told.
    They not only think (D)’s support anarchists, they think bands of anarchists are coming to their town to attack them and burn everything down.
    Because that’s what they’re told.
    The dangerous people are the people who are telling them this stuff.

  456. I think these people are being honest when they say this stuff. I think they’re deeply wrong, but they do believe what they’re saying.
    Me too.
    I don’t know why they think Democrats support anarchists.
    Because that’s what they’re told.
    They not only think (D)’s support anarchists, they think bands of anarchists are coming to their town to attack them and burn everything down.
    Because that’s what they’re told.
    The dangerous people are the people who are telling them this stuff.

  457. I believe we have had notable times when simply absentee ballots were a challenge:
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/absentee-ballot-rulings-favor-bush/
    But we also have never had so many ballots from so many places that could swing the electoral college.
    In many elections over the years the mail in ballots haven’t reached the level of changing the election if they were all for one person.
    Idaho is not likely to be a target of voter fraud to gain the electoral votes.
    And yes, the majority of places doing mail in balloting have not done it at scale ever before.
    The point being most of the country has never just mailed out ballots trusting that the person it is meant for fills it out and returns it on time. Absentee ballots are requested, someone is looking for them, they have taken the effort to request it and it is in most cases a small percentage of the overall vote.
    As an aside, I have other objections that have to do with my belief that it should not be too easy for people to vote. It is civic duty and a responsibility for the citizen that should not be treated like an Americas Got Talent vote.
    But, I recognize that in todays world that is a losing argument. Everything should be really, really easy.

  458. I believe we have had notable times when simply absentee ballots were a challenge:
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/absentee-ballot-rulings-favor-bush/
    But we also have never had so many ballots from so many places that could swing the electoral college.
    In many elections over the years the mail in ballots haven’t reached the level of changing the election if they were all for one person.
    Idaho is not likely to be a target of voter fraud to gain the electoral votes.
    And yes, the majority of places doing mail in balloting have not done it at scale ever before.
    The point being most of the country has never just mailed out ballots trusting that the person it is meant for fills it out and returns it on time. Absentee ballots are requested, someone is looking for them, they have taken the effort to request it and it is in most cases a small percentage of the overall vote.
    As an aside, I have other objections that have to do with my belief that it should not be too easy for people to vote. It is civic duty and a responsibility for the citizen that should not be treated like an Americas Got Talent vote.
    But, I recognize that in todays world that is a losing argument. Everything should be really, really easy.

  459. we should empanel Boards Of Elections in the various jurisdictions, fund them, and help them work to make sure everything goes correctly.

  460. we should empanel Boards Of Elections in the various jurisdictions, fund them, and help them work to make sure everything goes correctly.

  461. Wow, russell, that Window Swap is just too awesome!
    Seconded. An engrossing way to procrastinate. One view was out the window of a moving passenger train in Moscow. Would be even more interesting if it were live streaming. But, then, you would soon encounter NSFW content.

  462. Wow, russell, that Window Swap is just too awesome!
    Seconded. An engrossing way to procrastinate. One view was out the window of a moving passenger train in Moscow. Would be even more interesting if it were live streaming. But, then, you would soon encounter NSFW content.

  463. There are no realistic cases that have proved to be problematic, or are likely to be problematic this year.
    Don’t be too sure. This is the year of black swans and tipping points.

  464. There are no realistic cases that have proved to be problematic, or are likely to be problematic this year.
    Don’t be too sure. This is the year of black swans and tipping points.

  465. I can’t see why making voting easier (which disproportionately helps some groups, for example those who are too poor to have e.g. driving licenses, or those in whose areas polling places have been closed) would be a problem in any year. But in a year when there is a global pandemic in which more than 180,000 Americans have already died, this seems an absolute no-brainer, particularly in the absence of a compelling argument, which I note has not been offered.

  466. I can’t see why making voting easier (which disproportionately helps some groups, for example those who are too poor to have e.g. driving licenses, or those in whose areas polling places have been closed) would be a problem in any year. But in a year when there is a global pandemic in which more than 180,000 Americans have already died, this seems an absolute no-brainer, particularly in the absence of a compelling argument, which I note has not been offered.

  467. The point being most of the country has never just mailed out ballots trusting that the person it is meant for fills it out and returns it on time. Absentee ballots are requested, someone is looking for them, they have taken the effort to request it and it is in most cases a small percentage of the overall vote.
    The percentage depends on which state. In some states, voting in person on election day is overwhelmingly the exception.
    The reality this year is that a lot more people are going to vote by mail, because COVID. The question of whether it should be easy to vote of not is interesting, but the impediment to voting shouldn’t be “you might get sick and die”.
    So we need to deal with the reality and do our best to insure a reliable voting process.
    It’s not impossible, we just have a shitty POTUS who is not interested in making it happen.
    We’ll work around him, to the degree that we can. And we’ll live with the outcome.

  468. The point being most of the country has never just mailed out ballots trusting that the person it is meant for fills it out and returns it on time. Absentee ballots are requested, someone is looking for them, they have taken the effort to request it and it is in most cases a small percentage of the overall vote.
    The percentage depends on which state. In some states, voting in person on election day is overwhelmingly the exception.
    The reality this year is that a lot more people are going to vote by mail, because COVID. The question of whether it should be easy to vote of not is interesting, but the impediment to voting shouldn’t be “you might get sick and die”.
    So we need to deal with the reality and do our best to insure a reliable voting process.
    It’s not impossible, we just have a shitty POTUS who is not interested in making it happen.
    We’ll work around him, to the degree that we can. And we’ll live with the outcome.

  471. Aren’t the same people supporting mail in voting because of covid the ones that filled up dc last week? Priorities. It is important to understand them.
    The Dems have wanted vote by mail for a few decades, a crisis is a terrible thing to waste.

  472. Aren’t the same people supporting mail in voting because of covid the ones that filled up dc last week? Priorities. It is important to understand them.
    The Dems have wanted vote by mail for a few decades, a crisis is a terrible thing to waste.

  473. most of the country has never just mailed out ballots trusting that the person it is meant for fills it out and returns it on time. Absentee ballots are requested, someone is looking for them, they have taken the effort to request it
    Perhaps someone here can educate me. I am aware that some states are mailing all voters applications for mail-in ballots. I’m not aware of any place (save those that already do 100% vote by mail, of course) which has started just mailing the ballots themselves. Which states have done that?

  474. most of the country has never just mailed out ballots trusting that the person it is meant for fills it out and returns it on time. Absentee ballots are requested, someone is looking for them, they have taken the effort to request it
    Perhaps someone here can educate me. I am aware that some states are mailing all voters applications for mail-in ballots. I’m not aware of any place (save those that already do 100% vote by mail, of course) which has started just mailing the ballots themselves. Which states have done that?

  475. Utah is a heavily vote-by-mail state. Why you think this is a D thing is beyond me, Marty. Monsters lurk everywhere.

  476. Utah is a heavily vote-by-mail state. Why you think this is a D thing is beyond me, Marty. Monsters lurk everywhere.

  477. Aren’t the same people supporting mail in voting because of covid the ones that filled up dc last week?
    i’m pretty sure the two sets are not equal.
    The Dems have wanted vote by mail for a few decades, a crisis is a terrible thing to waste.
    oh no! a Democrat wanted something!
    better hate it even though it makes absolutely perfect sense during a fucking pandemic!

  478. Aren’t the same people supporting mail in voting because of covid the ones that filled up dc last week?
    i’m pretty sure the two sets are not equal.
    The Dems have wanted vote by mail for a few decades, a crisis is a terrible thing to waste.
    oh no! a Democrat wanted something!
    better hate it even though it makes absolutely perfect sense during a fucking pandemic!

  479. CLEARLY the radical marxist antifa legions are preparing to slaughter right-thinking RWNJs.
    Because all the leftists in the USA keep massive amounts of firearms, while pushing for gun restrictions.
    OR, if they haven’t gotten those huge stockpiles of firearms yet, they’ll be heading down to their local gun stores.
    You know the ones. The ones that are operated by Black Bloc sympathizers.
    I hear they give you a nice discount if you show an ACLU membership card also, too.

  480. CLEARLY the radical marxist antifa legions are preparing to slaughter right-thinking RWNJs.
    Because all the leftists in the USA keep massive amounts of firearms, while pushing for gun restrictions.
    OR, if they haven’t gotten those huge stockpiles of firearms yet, they’ll be heading down to their local gun stores.
    You know the ones. The ones that are operated by Black Bloc sympathizers.
    I hear they give you a nice discount if you show an ACLU membership card also, too.

  481. There are no realistic cases that have proved to be problematic, or are likely to be problematic this year.
    ——
    Don’t be too sure. This is the year of black swans and tipping points.
    But a black swan event is, by definition, unlikely. The fact that some unlikely events have occurred doesn’t change that.

  482. There are no realistic cases that have proved to be problematic, or are likely to be problematic this year.
    ——
    Don’t be too sure. This is the year of black swans and tipping points.
    But a black swan event is, by definition, unlikely. The fact that some unlikely events have occurred doesn’t change that.

  483. I’m not aware of any place (save those that already do 100% vote by mail, of course) which has started just mailing the ballots themselves. Which states have done that?
    i doubt any state could have mailed ballots, since the actual Presidential candidates weren’t officially selected before the conventions happened.

  484. I’m not aware of any place (save those that already do 100% vote by mail, of course) which has started just mailing the ballots themselves. Which states have done that?
    i doubt any state could have mailed ballots, since the actual Presidential candidates weren’t officially selected before the conventions happened.

  485. Some people seem to be making the argument that, as a form of protest, property crimes are OK.
    “A fresh argument for rioting and looting as our most powerful tools for dismantling white supremacy
    Looting–a crowd of people publicly, openly, and directly seizing goods–is one of the more extreme actions that can take place in the midst of social unrest. Even self-identified radicals distance themselves from looters, fearing that violent tactics reflect badly on the broader movement.
    But Vicky Osterweil argues that stealing goods and destroying property are direct, pragmatic strategies of wealth redistribution and improving life for the working class–not to mention the brazen messages these methods send to the police and the state. All our beliefs about the innate righteousness of property and ownership, Osterweil explains, are built on the history of anti-Black, anti-Indigenous oppression.
    From slave revolts to labor strikes to the modern-day movements for climate change, Black lives, and police abolition, Osterweil makes a convincing case for rioting and looting as weapons that bludgeon the status quo while uplifting the poor and marginalized.     In Defense of Looting is a history of violent protest sparking social change, a compelling reframing of revolutionary activism, and a practical vision for a dramatically restructured society.”
    In Defense of Looting: A Riotous History of Uncivil Action

  486. Some people seem to be making the argument that, as a form of protest, property crimes are OK.
    “A fresh argument for rioting and looting as our most powerful tools for dismantling white supremacy
    Looting–a crowd of people publicly, openly, and directly seizing goods–is one of the more extreme actions that can take place in the midst of social unrest. Even self-identified radicals distance themselves from looters, fearing that violent tactics reflect badly on the broader movement.
    But Vicky Osterweil argues that stealing goods and destroying property are direct, pragmatic strategies of wealth redistribution and improving life for the working class–not to mention the brazen messages these methods send to the police and the state. All our beliefs about the innate righteousness of property and ownership, Osterweil explains, are built on the history of anti-Black, anti-Indigenous oppression.
    From slave revolts to labor strikes to the modern-day movements for climate change, Black lives, and police abolition, Osterweil makes a convincing case for rioting and looting as weapons that bludgeon the status quo while uplifting the poor and marginalized.     In Defense of Looting is a history of violent protest sparking social change, a compelling reframing of revolutionary activism, and a practical vision for a dramatically restructured society.”
    In Defense of Looting: A Riotous History of Uncivil Action

  487. Aren’t the same people supporting mail in voting because of covid the ones that filled up dc last week
    Probably not.
    See also, me.
    Everything isn’t a plot. People want to vote, people don’t want to get sick.
    I’m sure it will be a mess, because Trump is the POTUS.
    We’ll just have to work around it.

  488. Aren’t the same people supporting mail in voting because of covid the ones that filled up dc last week
    Probably not.
    See also, me.
    Everything isn’t a plot. People want to vote, people don’t want to get sick.
    I’m sure it will be a mess, because Trump is the POTUS.
    We’ll just have to work around it.

  489. i doubt any state could have mailed ballots, since the actual Presidential candidates weren’t officially selected before the conventions happened.
    Well, there were the primaries.
    But it’s also possible, I suppose, that some state could have announced the intention to mail out ballots (not applications) for the general election.
    In either case, I’m looking for information on which states Marty is referring to.

  490. i doubt any state could have mailed ballots, since the actual Presidential candidates weren’t officially selected before the conventions happened.
    Well, there were the primaries.
    But it’s also possible, I suppose, that some state could have announced the intention to mail out ballots (not applications) for the general election.
    In either case, I’m looking for information on which states Marty is referring to.

  493. OR, if they haven’t gotten those huge stockpiles of firearms yet, they’ll be heading down to their local gun stores.
    “Ector said the sales are driven by concerns over the pandemic, the economic downturn, and recent rioting in places like Kenosha, Wisconsin, and Portland, Oregon. He expects the record sales to keep up through the end of the year, pointing to Democrat nominee Joe Biden’s strict new gun-control policies and his lead in national polling.”
    August Shatters Another Gun Sales Record: Michigan Instructor: ‘I have never seen a higher level of interest in guns’

  494. OR, if they haven’t gotten those huge stockpiles of firearms yet, they’ll be heading down to their local gun stores.
    “Ector said the sales are driven by concerns over the pandemic, the economic downturn, and recent rioting in places like Kenosha, Wisconsin, and Portland, Oregon. He expects the record sales to keep up through the end of the year, pointing to Democrat nominee Joe Biden’s strict new gun-control policies and his lead in national polling.”
    August Shatters Another Gun Sales Record: Michigan Instructor: ‘I have never seen a higher level of interest in guns’

  495. He expects the record sales to keep up through the end of the year, pointing to Democrat nominee Joe Biden’s strict new gun-control policies and his lead in national polling.”
    a culture based in fear is behaving as one would expect.

  496. He expects the record sales to keep up through the end of the year, pointing to Democrat nominee Joe Biden’s strict new gun-control policies and his lead in national polling.”
    a culture based in fear is behaving as one would expect.

  497. I have just discovered that there is a word in German which means the training of one’s heart to see the humanity of another.
    The word is, I believe, herzensbildung.
    Worthwhile training, I would say.

  498. I have just discovered that there is a word in German which means the training of one’s heart to see the humanity of another.
    The word is, I believe, herzensbildung.
    Worthwhile training, I would say.

  499. I’ve lost track: are we libs pro-anarchy or pro-big-government?
    Also: do we want to make voting easier for everybody, or do we want to make it harder so only the well-informed (“elite” if you prefer) will bother to vote?
    Marty seems to think we’re all of the above, but I’m not sure he’s right.
    –TP

  500. I’ve lost track: are we libs pro-anarchy or pro-big-government?
    Also: do we want to make voting easier for everybody, or do we want to make it harder so only the well-informed (“elite” if you prefer) will bother to vote?
    Marty seems to think we’re all of the above, but I’m not sure he’s right.
    –TP

  501. Worthwhile training, I would say.
    The work of a lifetime. But most truly worthwhile things are.
    Thank you for this.

  502. Worthwhile training, I would say.
    The work of a lifetime. But most truly worthwhile things are.
    Thank you for this.

  505. Hmmm. Interestingly, I see it is often translated as “nobleness of heart” (which the other translation covers too, of course). But I saw this translation in an extract from the book Gods of the Upper Air: How a Circle of Renegade Anthropologists Reinvented Race, Sex and Gender in the Twentieth Century
    I haven’t read the book (although I may do so now), but the relevant extract says:

    Boas had encountered it in the works of Alexander von Humboldt and other philosophers he had read during his travels through Germany’s great universities, and it seemed the perfect way to describe the change of spirit that had overtaken him in the north: Herzensbildung, the training of one’s heart to see the humanity of another. Changing his place in the world had changed his perspective on it.

  506. Hmmm. Interestingly, I see it is often translated as “nobleness of heart” (which the other translation covers too, of course). But I saw this translation in an extract from the book Gods of the Upper Air: How a Circle of Renegade Anthropologists Reinvented Race, Sex and Gender in the Twentieth Century
    I haven’t read the book (although I may do so now), but the relevant extract says:

    Boas had encountered it in the works of Alexander von Humboldt and other philosophers he had read during his travels through Germany’s great universities, and it seemed the perfect way to describe the change of spirit that had overtaken him in the north: Herzensbildung, the training of one’s heart to see the humanity of another. Changing his place in the world had changed his perspective on it.

  507. I’ve heard the argument Vicky Osterweil puts forward espoused by a few people in real life, most of whom were anti-capitalist punk activists, but those are tiny communities on the left, and even amongst them the majority of the people would advocate for directing property damage to large corporations that have both the insurance to swallow the loss and a record of low wages and labor exploitation. And none of them would support any such destruction of property if it put people’s lives at immediate risk.
    This is a description of that subculture’s attitudes, not an endorsement.
    And business schools routinely teach students that shuttering businesses and displacing workers is fine so long as it creates stockholder value, and that having full employment is bad for business and that helping those for whom there are no jobs distorts the market.
    How we parse these indifferences to the suffering of others shows a lot about our own values.
    What is an acceptable cost? How do we allocate how much say each person involved has over the decision?
    Tough questions.

  508. I’ve heard the argument Vicky Osterweil puts forward espoused by a few people in real life, most of whom were anti-capitalist punk activists, but those are tiny communities on the left, and even amongst them the majority of the people would advocate for directing property damage to large corporations that have both the insurance to swallow the loss and a record of low wages and labor exploitation. And none of them would support any such destruction of property if it put people’s lives at immediate risk.
    This is a description of that subculture’s attitudes, not an endorsement.
    And business schools routinely teach students that shuttering businesses and displacing workers is fine so long as it creates stockholder value, and that having full employment is bad for business and that helping those for whom there are no jobs distorts the market.
    How we parse these indifferences to the suffering of others shows a lot about our own values.
    What is an acceptable cost? How do we allocate how much say each person involved has over the decision?
    Tough questions.

  509. Utah is a heavily vote-by-mail state. Why you think this is a D thing is beyond me, Marty.
    So is Arizona (79% in 2018). So is Montana (72%). So is Indiana (33%). So is Wyoming (30%). So is North Dakota (29%).
    That said, I do agree with Marty to the extent that at least a couple of states, where absentee voting has always been below 5%, that attempt to scale up to all mail voting using the same process, will have serious problems. Not fraud, though, just logistics.
    “Scaling up” may be out of the election officials hands. There are R and D states where this can happen because they already have no-excuse mail ballots. For example, Alabama had 3% vote by mail in 2018. But they have no-excuse mail ballots. Such ballots must be requested by mail. It is possible — not likely, but possible — that 90% of AL voters will request a mail ballot and all of those requests will land on the county recorders 10 days before election day. It would be a nightmare because logistics.
    AL’s state government has, at some point in the past, set up this potential disaster. Contrast that with Nevada, which called a special session this year in order to adjust dates, processes, and funding to give their county recorders a fighting chance.

  510. Utah is a heavily vote-by-mail state. Why you think this is a D thing is beyond me, Marty.
    So is Arizona (79% in 2018). So is Montana (72%). So is Indiana (33%). So is Wyoming (30%). So is North Dakota (29%).
    That said, I do agree with Marty to the extent that at least a couple of states, where absentee voting has always been below 5%, that attempt to scale up to all mail voting using the same process, will have serious problems. Not fraud, though, just logistics.
    “Scaling up” may be out of the election officials hands. There are R and D states where this can happen because they already have no-excuse mail ballots. For example, Alabama had 3% vote by mail in 2018. But they have no-excuse mail ballots. Such ballots must be requested by mail. It is possible — not likely, but possible — that 90% of AL voters will request a mail ballot and all of those requests will land on the county recorders 10 days before election day. It would be a nightmare because logistics.
    AL’s state government has, at some point in the past, set up this potential disaster. Contrast that with Nevada, which called a special session this year in order to adjust dates, processes, and funding to give their county recorders a fighting chance.

  511. Tough questions.
    Sometimes I think we all overthink stuff.
    If you back people into a deep enough corner, some of them will act out. Some of them will break stuff and burn stuff down.
    Because the consequences of doing that are no longer worse than whatever reality they’re living in anyway.
    There are also some people who look for opportunities to break stuff and burn stuff down, because they like to break stuff and burn stuff down. But in normal times fewer of those opportunities present themselves.
    None of that is a justification, it’s just a reality.
    Throw a ball up in the air, it will come down again.
    Back people into a deep enough corner, and they will act out.

  512. Tough questions.
    Sometimes I think we all overthink stuff.
    If you back people into a deep enough corner, some of them will act out. Some of them will break stuff and burn stuff down.
    Because the consequences of doing that are no longer worse than whatever reality they’re living in anyway.
    There are also some people who look for opportunities to break stuff and burn stuff down, because they like to break stuff and burn stuff down. But in normal times fewer of those opportunities present themselves.
    None of that is a justification, it’s just a reality.
    Throw a ball up in the air, it will come down again.
    Back people into a deep enough corner, and they will act out.

  513. Here’s a good article: https://www.factcheck.org/2020/08/voting-by-mail-in-the-swing-states/ which echoes some of the things Michael said. But even in states that were 30% I think this is going to be important:
    But the high volume underscored one of the pitfalls of mail-in voting: rejected ballots. An analysis by American Public Media and Wisconsin Watch found that “more than 23,000 ballots were thrown out, mostly because those voters or their witnesses missed at least one line on a form.
    That, their report said, foreshadowed potential problems in the fall.
    APM Reports: While there is no way of knowing who those voters will choose in November, the figure is nearly equivalent to Trump’s 2016 margin of victory in Wisconsin of 22,748 votes. And with voter turnout expected to double from April to more than 3 million in November, a proportionate volume of ballot rejections could be the difference in who wins the swing state and possibly the presidency.
    In addition, the United States Postal Service is investigating complaints of requested mail-in ballots that were never delivered or were delivered too late.

  514. Here’s a good article: https://www.factcheck.org/2020/08/voting-by-mail-in-the-swing-states/ which echoes some of the things Michael said. But even in states that were 30% I think this is going to be important:
    But the high volume underscored one of the pitfalls of mail-in voting: rejected ballots. An analysis by American Public Media and Wisconsin Watch found that “more than 23,000 ballots were thrown out, mostly because those voters or their witnesses missed at least one line on a form.
    That, their report said, foreshadowed potential problems in the fall.
    APM Reports: While there is no way of knowing who those voters will choose in November, the figure is nearly equivalent to Trump’s 2016 margin of victory in Wisconsin of 22,748 votes. And with voter turnout expected to double from April to more than 3 million in November, a proportionate volume of ballot rejections could be the difference in who wins the swing state and possibly the presidency.
    In addition, the United States Postal Service is investigating complaints of requested mail-in ballots that were never delivered or were delivered too late.

  515. seems like a President should be out there spreading the word about how to learn what your state offers for voting, encouraging people to get it right, etc.. leading
    for example

  516. seems like a President should be out there spreading the word about how to learn what your state offers for voting, encouraging people to get it right, etc.. leading
    for example

  517. There are absolutely going to be problems. Vote by mail is just going to be one of them, there are going to be *many*.
    Who do you think the (R) candidate is?
    We’ll deal with them as well as we can, and we’ll live with the outcome.
    The alternative is… what? No election? Only people willing to go to a polling place get to vote?
    Voter turnout in a presidential election year is typically just over 50%. No vote by mail will reduce that even further, probably by some significant margin.
    What does it look like if we have a POTUS elected by 40% of the eligible voters? or 30%?
    We’ll do our best and we’ll live with the outcome.

  518. There are absolutely going to be problems. Vote by mail is just going to be one of them, there are going to be *many*.
    Who do you think the (R) candidate is?
    We’ll deal with them as well as we can, and we’ll live with the outcome.
    The alternative is… what? No election? Only people willing to go to a polling place get to vote?
    Voter turnout in a presidential election year is typically just over 50%. No vote by mail will reduce that even further, probably by some significant margin.
    What does it look like if we have a POTUS elected by 40% of the eligible voters? or 30%?
    We’ll do our best and we’ll live with the outcome.

  519. speaking of not letting a crisis go to waste:

    “I think the last six months have really revealed the fact that the system that most students have been a part of has been a very static, one-size-fits-all system that is unable in way too many cases to pivot, to be nimble and flexible and to adjust to new and different circumstances,” she [DeVos] said.
    “And I think this is a good thing because I think it’s going to really force changes that should have happened many years ago. And most of that’s going to happen when families themselves are empowered to make those choices and those changes and those decisions.”

  520. speaking of not letting a crisis go to waste:

    “I think the last six months have really revealed the fact that the system that most students have been a part of has been a very static, one-size-fits-all system that is unable in way too many cases to pivot, to be nimble and flexible and to adjust to new and different circumstances,” she [DeVos] said.
    “And I think this is a good thing because I think it’s going to really force changes that should have happened many years ago. And most of that’s going to happen when families themselves are empowered to make those choices and those changes and those decisions.”

  521. The alternative is… what? No election? Only people willing to go to a polling place get to vote?
    And listen to the howls of outrage if the latter is applied. And Trump’s vote is not counted.

  522. The alternative is… what? No election? Only people willing to go to a polling place get to vote?
    And listen to the howls of outrage if the latter is applied. And Trump’s vote is not counted.

  523. Perhaps we could emulate Belgium… 🙂
    “After over 600 days without a full national government, Belgians are starting to wonder if they need one at all.
    If the country can get along without a top tier of federal ministers burning money in ministerial cars and the like — particularly in a country with multiple interlocking layers of political power — it might seem an attractive proposition for some. And the last time Belgium went for a prolonged period without a federal executive (it took 541 days to form a government following the 2010 election), the economy actually grew by 2 percentage points and unemployment fell.”
    4 reasons Belgium needs a government: Belgium has survived long periods without a government before, but without leadership from the top, major societal challenges are getting worse.

  524. Perhaps we could emulate Belgium… 🙂
    “After over 600 days without a full national government, Belgians are starting to wonder if they need one at all.
    If the country can get along without a top tier of federal ministers burning money in ministerial cars and the like — particularly in a country with multiple interlocking layers of political power — it might seem an attractive proposition for some. And the last time Belgium went for a prolonged period without a federal executive (it took 541 days to form a government following the 2010 election), the economy actually grew by 2 percentage points and unemployment fell.”
    4 reasons Belgium needs a government: Belgium has survived long periods without a government before, but without leadership from the top, major societal challenges are getting worse.

  525. After over 600 days without a full national government, Belgians are starting to wonder if they need one at all.
    After driving thousands of miles without ever deploying them, perhaps I should wonder if I even need airbags in my car.
    The fact that a situation which absolutely requires national action hasn’t occurred doesn’t mean that the ability to take such action is not needed.

  526. After over 600 days without a full national government, Belgians are starting to wonder if they need one at all.
    After driving thousands of miles without ever deploying them, perhaps I should wonder if I even need airbags in my car.
    The fact that a situation which absolutely requires national action hasn’t occurred doesn’t mean that the ability to take such action is not needed.

  527. temporarily not having an executive probably wouldn’t hurt most big organizations. all of the day-to-day stuff will keep chugging along normally, as it’s designed to do. what you really lose is just the ability to handle big new situations.

  528. temporarily not having an executive probably wouldn’t hurt most big organizations. all of the day-to-day stuff will keep chugging along normally, as it’s designed to do. what you really lose is just the ability to handle big new situations.

  529. Assuming that CharlesWT actually read the article (which, I have no Reason not to assume), there had to have been a lot of irony in that :). Not a rosy picture.

  530. Assuming that CharlesWT actually read the article (which, I have no Reason not to assume), there had to have been a lot of irony in that :). Not a rosy picture.

  531. I say let Belgium try it out for a decade or two and see how it works out.
    If they make a go of it, maybe we can consider it.
    Meanwhile, there is this alarm from the NYT. It’s a paywall, so here’s the gist of it:

    What if early results in swing states on Nov. 3 show President Trump ahead, and he declares victory before heavily Democratic mail-in votes, which he has falsely linked with fraud, are fully counted?

    My question is: who cares? Trump can declare anything he likes, but his declaration is irrelevant.
    Nothing is decided until the EC votes. They don’t vote until December.
    And before they vote, we allocate a month after Election Day for all disputes recounts and other shenanigans to be resolved.
    Is this really a concern? I mean other than the general screwing-with-our-heads circus sideshow aspect.
    As far as I can tell, the outcome of the election is not the POTUS’ call. Am I missing something?

  532. I say let Belgium try it out for a decade or two and see how it works out.
    If they make a go of it, maybe we can consider it.
    Meanwhile, there is this alarm from the NYT. It’s a paywall, so here’s the gist of it:

    What if early results in swing states on Nov. 3 show President Trump ahead, and he declares victory before heavily Democratic mail-in votes, which he has falsely linked with fraud, are fully counted?

    My question is: who cares? Trump can declare anything he likes, but his declaration is irrelevant.
    Nothing is decided until the EC votes. They don’t vote until December.
    And before they vote, we allocate a month after Election Day for all disputes recounts and other shenanigans to be resolved.
    Is this really a concern? I mean other than the general screwing-with-our-heads circus sideshow aspect.
    As far as I can tell, the outcome of the election is not the POTUS’ call. Am I missing something?

  535. As far as I can tell, the outcome of the election is not the POTUS’ call. Am I missing something?
    The concern, as I understand it, is not with the results of the election. As you say, that is largely outside POTUS’ reach.
    It is with the actions of Trump and his fans. Specifically if the final and official results differ from the very incomplete results as of late Election Day evening.

  536. As far as I can tell, the outcome of the election is not the POTUS’ call. Am I missing something?
    The concern, as I understand it, is not with the results of the election. As you say, that is largely outside POTUS’ reach.
    It is with the actions of Trump and his fans. Specifically if the final and official results differ from the very incomplete results as of late Election Day evening.

  537. one scenario i read was: Trump declares victory then encourages his totally-peaceful-and-upstanding camo-wearing militia folks to storm the Boards of Election and prevent them from saying otherwise.
    you want a civil war? do that.

  538. one scenario i read was: Trump declares victory then encourages his totally-peaceful-and-upstanding camo-wearing militia folks to storm the Boards of Election and prevent them from saying otherwise.
    you want a civil war? do that.

  539. I would add that, based on the feedback I got today, it might be incorrect to assume heavily Democratic mail in votes.
    I do know Republicans dont like getting Covid either.

  540. I would add that, based on the feedback I got today, it might be incorrect to assume heavily Democratic mail in votes.
    I do know Republicans dont like getting Covid either.

  543. it might be incorrect to assume heavily Democratic mail in votes.
    I do know Republicans dont like getting Covid either.
    Big numbers of said covid-averse Republicans in Florida. How nice for them that Florida’s vote-by-mail system, alone among all the states, is deemed totally secure and imune to possible fraud. Per POTUS.

  544. it might be incorrect to assume heavily Democratic mail in votes.
    I do know Republicans dont like getting Covid either.
    Big numbers of said covid-averse Republicans in Florida. How nice for them that Florida’s vote-by-mail system, alone among all the states, is deemed totally secure and imune to possible fraud. Per POTUS.

  547. I agree but could get tense if its close.
    It’s going to be tense. We should all assume that, and be prepared for that.

  548. I agree but could get tense if its close.
    It’s going to be tense. We should all assume that, and be prepared for that.

  549. “One in three Americans thinks we’ll know who won the presidential election on the night of Nov. 3, and six in 10 expect the winner to be announced within a couple of days, our new poll finds.
    Why it matters: The gap between public expectations and what experts are warning — that it may take weeks — shows the risk of a national crisis over trust and acceptance of this year’s results, whether President Trump wins a second term or Joe Biden unseats him.”
    Axios-Ipsos poll: Most expect quick election results

  550. “One in three Americans thinks we’ll know who won the presidential election on the night of Nov. 3, and six in 10 expect the winner to be announced within a couple of days, our new poll finds.
    Why it matters: The gap between public expectations and what experts are warning — that it may take weeks — shows the risk of a national crisis over trust and acceptance of this year’s results, whether President Trump wins a second term or Joe Biden unseats him.”
    Axios-Ipsos poll: Most expect quick election results

  551. 2000 FL recount USSC ruling: “we have to stop the recount because it could undermine the result”
    Brooks Brother’s riot, part II: The Trumpening.

  552. 2000 FL recount USSC ruling: “we have to stop the recount because it could undermine the result”
    Brooks Brother’s riot, part II: The Trumpening.

  553. But I’m going to hold out and vote in person. Just because.
    Jesus Christ, Marty. Given your extreme at-risk status, “just because” seems crazy. I do understand about putting your money where your mouth is, but how will you justify it to your family, given that you say if you get Covid you’re a goner? And if you do go through with it, what precautions do you intend to take?

  554. But I’m going to hold out and vote in person. Just because.
    Jesus Christ, Marty. Given your extreme at-risk status, “just because” seems crazy. I do understand about putting your money where your mouth is, but how will you justify it to your family, given that you say if you get Covid you’re a goner? And if you do go through with it, what precautions do you intend to take?

  555. It’s going to be tense. We should all assume that, and be prepared for that.
    The apparent winner and his supporters will declare the election free and fair, the loser, not at all.

  556. It’s going to be tense. We should all assume that, and be prepared for that.
    The apparent winner and his supporters will declare the election free and fair, the loser, not at all.

  557. The apparent winner and his supporters will declare the election free and fair, the loser, not at all
    That looks to be true in one direction only.
    My recollection for 2016 is that the Democrats had some caustic things to say about the Electoral College. And noted that Trump lost the popular vote. But I don’t recall them declaring that the result was invalid — unfair, perhaps, but not invalid under the rules. Do you see a reason to assume that they would not do the same this time? (Assuming, God forbid, Trump wins.)

  558. The apparent winner and his supporters will declare the election free and fair, the loser, not at all
    That looks to be true in one direction only.
    My recollection for 2016 is that the Democrats had some caustic things to say about the Electoral College. And noted that Trump lost the popular vote. But I don’t recall them declaring that the result was invalid — unfair, perhaps, but not invalid under the rules. Do you see a reason to assume that they would not do the same this time? (Assuming, God forbid, Trump wins.)

  559. One hopes Marty mails in his ballot because he does NOT want this disease.
    But, if he succumbs, he can rest assured the Covid-19 QAnon Republicans will have his back and chalk his demise up to whatever pre-existing conditions he has, and NOT count him among the hundreds of thousands of Covid victims and let’s keep in mind Republicans don’t even believe in insuring pre-existing conditions.
    https://digbysblog.net/2020/09/a-new-conspiracy-theory-covid-death-deniers/
    The upside for us is Marty will still be with us, like Herman Cain, commenting daily. They are always with us, even the dead ones.
    And under Trump rules, he’ll be able to vote in the 2024 election as well, using the mail-ballots that will be sent to conservative shades.
    Wendell Wilkie, Joe McCarthy, and Ronald Reagan are all voting this year.
    Not in person, of course, because they suffer from permanent pre-existing conditions which limit their mobility.
    I recall too Marty saying he would be a goner, in so many words, should he contract this plague, but this sort of thing is very Marty.
    When we talk about sexual harassment of women in the workplace, Marty lets us know that he has been sexually propositioned numerous times by his Mrs. Robinson female superiors.
    They can’t help it. It must be his cologne. %-}
    I’m ashamed to admit I’m secretly envious in that regard, because the only female boss I’ve ever had told me me clean out my desk in 30 minutes and hit the sidewalk, and she showed absolutely no leg in my direction and not an eyelash was batted nor a ballpoint pen flirtatiously nibbled on during the confrontation.
    I’ve been unfortunate in all of my halfhearted careers to have had bosses and colleagues, every one of them, be all business and strictly professional.
    When we talk about violent crime, Marty informs us that four of family members have been murdered.
    Might be a Mafia family, I don’t know.
    When we talk about Obamacare, Marty is the recipient of the most egregious abuse imaginable under that program, including the perilous draw down of his IRAs.
    We listen patiently to his tales of unemployment, and worry about him, perhaps because of age discrimination, and then before you know it, and good for him, he’s in business advising countless other businesses about moving back to the States from China, which he has personally witnessed stealing from America.
    Indian women from the sub-Continent come right out and tell him to his face, like Khrushchev banging his shoe on the table, that India will bury America, sure as sunrise.
    All I manage to get from Indian women is directed to the lunch buffet table with the three types of curry.
    It’s all true, I’m sure, but what can you say?
    I’m thinking of voting in person as well, rather than using the Colorado ballot drop boxes, this year, because I want to see what happens when one of the tens of thousands of Republican “volunteers” fanning out to “monitor” voting places across the country approaches my face with questions regarding my fitness to vote.
    I’m a white man, so they’ll probably discriminate against me and leave me be, but I’m looking to buy trouble.
    Talk about things getting tense.

  560. One hopes Marty mails in his ballot because he does NOT want this disease.
    But, if he succumbs, he can rest assured the Covid-19 QAnon Republicans will have his back and chalk his demise up to whatever pre-existing conditions he has, and NOT count him among the hundreds of thousands of Covid victims and let’s keep in mind Republicans don’t even believe in insuring pre-existing conditions.
    https://digbysblog.net/2020/09/a-new-conspiracy-theory-covid-death-deniers/
    The upside for us is Marty will still be with us, like Herman Cain, commenting daily. They are always with us, even the dead ones.
    And under Trump rules, he’ll be able to vote in the 2024 election as well, using the mail-ballots that will be sent to conservative shades.
    Wendell Wilkie, Joe McCarthy, and Ronald Reagan are all voting this year.
    Not in person, of course, because they suffer from permanent pre-existing conditions which limit their mobility.
    I recall too Marty saying he would be a goner, in so many words, should he contract this plague, but this sort of thing is very Marty.
    When we talk about sexual harassment of women in the workplace, Marty lets us know that he has been sexually propositioned numerous times by his Mrs. Robinson female superiors.
    They can’t help it. It must be his cologne. %-}
    I’m ashamed to admit I’m secretly envious in that regard, because the only female boss I’ve ever had told me me clean out my desk in 30 minutes and hit the sidewalk, and she showed absolutely no leg in my direction and not an eyelash was batted nor a ballpoint pen flirtatiously nibbled on during the confrontation.
    I’ve been unfortunate in all of my halfhearted careers to have had bosses and colleagues, every one of them, be all business and strictly professional.
    When we talk about violent crime, Marty informs us that four of family members have been murdered.
    Might be a Mafia family, I don’t know.
    When we talk about Obamacare, Marty is the recipient of the most egregious abuse imaginable under that program, including the perilous draw down of his IRAs.
    We listen patiently to his tales of unemployment, and worry about him, perhaps because of age discrimination, and then before you know it, and good for him, he’s in business advising countless other businesses about moving back to the States from China, which he has personally witnessed stealing from America.
    Indian women from the sub-Continent come right out and tell him to his face, like Khrushchev banging his shoe on the table, that India will bury America, sure as sunrise.
    All I manage to get from Indian women is directed to the lunch buffet table with the three types of curry.
    It’s all true, I’m sure, but what can you say?
    I’m thinking of voting in person as well, rather than using the Colorado ballot drop boxes, this year, because I want to see what happens when one of the tens of thousands of Republican “volunteers” fanning out to “monitor” voting places across the country approaches my face with questions regarding my fitness to vote.
    I’m a white man, so they’ll probably discriminate against me and leave me be, but I’m looking to buy trouble.
    Talk about things getting tense.

  561. The Indian was a guy. I haven’t been in FL to vote in person in 6 years, I like voting. I’ll wear a mask.
    Numbers are going down there so all good.

  562. The Indian was a guy. I haven’t been in FL to vote in person in 6 years, I like voting. I’ll wear a mask.
    Numbers are going down there so all good.

  563. Just advising two. One for equity that so far is worthless. But I do participate on the meetings. It has been a better year and a half. I appreciate your concern. We’ll see if I can keep it up.

  564. Just advising two. One for equity that so far is worthless. But I do participate on the meetings. It has been a better year and a half. I appreciate your concern. We’ll see if I can keep it up.

  565. But I’m going to hold out and vote in person. Just because.
    And I strongly support your right to do so. I greatly prefer the Colorado model to Oregon’s, where in-person voting is hard. But I also advocate for making it as easy as possible for people to vote even if their work or personal situation makes standing in line on election day difficult. No one should be put in the position of having to skip voting because, eg, they allocated an hour to stand in line with their little kids and the line is 90 minutes long.

  566. But I’m going to hold out and vote in person. Just because.
    And I strongly support your right to do so. I greatly prefer the Colorado model to Oregon’s, where in-person voting is hard. But I also advocate for making it as easy as possible for people to vote even if their work or personal situation makes standing in line on election day difficult. No one should be put in the position of having to skip voting because, eg, they allocated an hour to stand in line with their little kids and the line is 90 minutes long.

  567. Like Marty, I like voting in person. Chatting with the seniors manning the polls, stuff like that. Then get some take-out pizza for watching election returns.
    None of which is going to work very well this year. Oh well.
    “I’m a white man, so they’ll probably discriminate against me and leave me be, but I’m looking to buy trouble.”
    Bring a passport, and challenge those “GOP vote integrate monitors” to prove THEIR citizenship. Driver’s License? Nope. Gotta be a US Passport or original birth certificate or certificate of Naturalization. Then kick their lying foreign-interfering asses.

  568. Like Marty, I like voting in person. Chatting with the seniors manning the polls, stuff like that. Then get some take-out pizza for watching election returns.
    None of which is going to work very well this year. Oh well.
    “I’m a white man, so they’ll probably discriminate against me and leave me be, but I’m looking to buy trouble.”
    Bring a passport, and challenge those “GOP vote integrate monitors” to prove THEIR citizenship. Driver’s License? Nope. Gotta be a US Passport or original birth certificate or certificate of Naturalization. Then kick their lying foreign-interfering asses.

  569. The apparent winner and his supporters will declare the election free and fair, the loser, not at all.
    Nobody should concede until the outcome is clear.
    If Trump clearly loses, he’ll fight it as far as he can and then bitch about the rigged election.
    If Biden clearly loses, he’ll concede.
    We aren’t living in a both sides world. If there is one thing we all need to be crystal clear about, it is that.
    Trump is an authoritarian crook, and the (R)’s as a party have gone down that path with him. If he wins we will have a crooked authoritarian government. Or, at least, a crooked authoritarian executive.
    Biden is not a crook, and in general neither are the (D)’s. If he wins we’ll have… a government.
    I don’t care what your politics are, the difference in the people involved is night and day.
    Let’s keep it real, shall we?
    I like voting. I’ll wear a mask.
    You’re not a knucklehead, I’m sure you’ll be fine.
    I’d probably vote in person, but my wife prefers that we avoid unnecessary exposure, and I like to respect her wishes whenever I can.
    I’ll miss the old ladies asking me for my address and checking me off in their voter registry book.
    Every election, they look more and more like maybe I knew them in high school.
    Stay safe everyone. But vote.

  570. The apparent winner and his supporters will declare the election free and fair, the loser, not at all.
    Nobody should concede until the outcome is clear.
    If Trump clearly loses, he’ll fight it as far as he can and then bitch about the rigged election.
    If Biden clearly loses, he’ll concede.
    We aren’t living in a both sides world. If there is one thing we all need to be crystal clear about, it is that.
    Trump is an authoritarian crook, and the (R)’s as a party have gone down that path with him. If he wins we will have a crooked authoritarian government. Or, at least, a crooked authoritarian executive.
    Biden is not a crook, and in general neither are the (D)’s. If he wins we’ll have… a government.
    I don’t care what your politics are, the difference in the people involved is night and day.
    Let’s keep it real, shall we?
    I like voting. I’ll wear a mask.
    You’re not a knucklehead, I’m sure you’ll be fine.
    I’d probably vote in person, but my wife prefers that we avoid unnecessary exposure, and I like to respect her wishes whenever I can.
    I’ll miss the old ladies asking me for my address and checking me off in their voter registry book.
    Every election, they look more and more like maybe I knew them in high school.
    Stay safe everyone. But vote.

  571. It never ends. Now Trump’s urging his supporters to vote twice.

    President Trump, on Wednesday during a trip in battleground North Carolina, urged voters to vote twice, once by mail and once in person, to test the protections intended to guard against double voting.
    . . .
    Intentionally voting twice is illegal, and in many states, including North Carolina, it is a felony.

    But perhaps he’s going to pardon them. Oh, wait. The President can’t issue pardons for state crimes. Oh, well….

  572. It never ends. Now Trump’s urging his supporters to vote twice.

    President Trump, on Wednesday during a trip in battleground North Carolina, urged voters to vote twice, once by mail and once in person, to test the protections intended to guard against double voting.
    . . .
    Intentionally voting twice is illegal, and in many states, including North Carolina, it is a felony.

    But perhaps he’s going to pardon them. Oh, wait. The President can’t issue pardons for state crimes. Oh, well….

  573. Snarki: Bring a passport, and challenge those “GOP vote integrate monitors” to prove THEIR citizenship.
    Amen.
    When we big-government-loving anarchist libs get our turn to destroy America, any cop who sees a white person strolling along an inner city sidewalk will be required, not just empowered, to demand proof of citizenship on the spot. Can’t have suspicious-looking types threatening our inner cities, know what I mean?
    –TP

  574. Snarki: Bring a passport, and challenge those “GOP vote integrate monitors” to prove THEIR citizenship.
    Amen.
    When we big-government-loving anarchist libs get our turn to destroy America, any cop who sees a white person strolling along an inner city sidewalk will be required, not just empowered, to demand proof of citizenship on the spot. Can’t have suspicious-looking types threatening our inner cities, know what I mean?
    –TP

  577. Hi Marty, I was sort of expecting some sort of reply either acknowledging what I said or pointing out I was wrong and I had not been even in my treatment, though I didn’t specificially ask you, so you can’t be expected to read my mind.
    But I’m wondering if there was a particular exchange here that you felt I (or others) wasn’t calling out someone for something that you would normally get called out for. I don’t expect an exact reference, but if you could identify it with some details, perhaps one of the regulars can figure out where you are talking about.
    About voting, I tend to stay out of those discussions, but the link you provided to factcheck.org is quite useful
    https://www.factcheck.org/2020/08/voting-by-mail-in-the-swing-states/

  578. Hi Marty, I was sort of expecting some sort of reply either acknowledging what I said or pointing out I was wrong and I had not been even in my treatment, though I didn’t specificially ask you, so you can’t be expected to read my mind.
    But I’m wondering if there was a particular exchange here that you felt I (or others) wasn’t calling out someone for something that you would normally get called out for. I don’t expect an exact reference, but if you could identify it with some details, perhaps one of the regulars can figure out where you are talking about.
    About voting, I tend to stay out of those discussions, but the link you provided to factcheck.org is quite useful
    https://www.factcheck.org/2020/08/voting-by-mail-in-the-swing-states/

  581. Marty, my response to your 8:28 AM comment
    IDK, lj, what do we call it if a black person fails to understand some aspect of the white experience? Not snark. It happens. What word would you use?
    I assume you had a reason to ask and it would explain something, but not really sure why. As I said, I was expecting something, but I didn’t ask, so you may have missed it or thought that was it, but, if you’ve noticed, the thing that has me go off on people here is not their political views, but if they are disruptive and prevent discussion from happening. You seemed to have something in mind when you asked what I would call it if it were a black person, which made me think you had some specific incident in mind and I’ve wracked my brain but can’t think of any examples.

  582. Marty, my response to your 8:28 AM comment
    IDK, lj, what do we call it if a black person fails to understand some aspect of the white experience? Not snark. It happens. What word would you use?
    I assume you had a reason to ask and it would explain something, but not really sure why. As I said, I was expecting something, but I didn’t ask, so you may have missed it or thought that was it, but, if you’ve noticed, the thing that has me go off on people here is not their political views, but if they are disruptive and prevent discussion from happening. You seemed to have something in mind when you asked what I would call it if it were a black person, which made me think you had some specific incident in mind and I’ve wracked my brain but can’t think of any examples.

  583. lj, I was curious if you would use the word racism, or some other, thinking the some other might be used in both cases. Your answer was thoughtful but didn’t really lead to a selarate line of discussion. I was not referring to anyone specific here.

  584. lj, I was curious if you would use the word racism, or some other, thinking the some other might be used in both cases. Your answer was thoughtful but didn’t really lead to a selarate line of discussion. I was not referring to anyone specific here.

  585. Well, I believe I would, but it would have to be someone that I knew well enough and had spent a sufficient amount of time talking to so that they would know my position on things. You may think that I cast it around lightly, but I don’t believe I do, before taking it as a perjorative, I believe it is a serious problem and if I were to identify it, I hope it wouldn’t be on a whim.

  586. Well, I believe I would, but it would have to be someone that I knew well enough and had spent a sufficient amount of time talking to so that they would know my position on things. You may think that I cast it around lightly, but I don’t believe I do, before taking it as a perjorative, I believe it is a serious problem and if I were to identify it, I hope it wouldn’t be on a whim.

  587. Mona Charen has a message.
    and i like to hear it.
    but, i look at Gallup, and i notice that GOP support from Trump is currently at 90%, and party ID hasn’t changed a bit since Nov 2016.
    so, for every Republican who just can’t Trump, there must be a new one joining the cult.
    Now Trump’s urging his supporters to vote twice.
    what Trump can’t control directly he must corrupt.

  588. Mona Charen has a message.
    and i like to hear it.
    but, i look at Gallup, and i notice that GOP support from Trump is currently at 90%, and party ID hasn’t changed a bit since Nov 2016.
    so, for every Republican who just can’t Trump, there must be a new one joining the cult.
    Now Trump’s urging his supporters to vote twice.
    what Trump can’t control directly he must corrupt.

  589. i’m going to vote in person. wife is going to mail it in.
    i don’t feel it’s going to be any more of a risk than grocery shopping (which i do once a week) or picking up take-out.

  590. i’m going to vote in person. wife is going to mail it in.
    i don’t feel it’s going to be any more of a risk than grocery shopping (which i do once a week) or picking up take-out.

  591. As an aside, I have other objections that have to do with my belief that it should not be too easy for people to vote. It is civic duty and a responsibility for the citizen that should not be treated like an Americas Got Talent vote.
    If there were some way we could impose barriers to voting which had equal impact on every member of the electorate, then we could discuss the merits of this idea. But, obviously, there isn’t.
    In practice, if you make it difficult to vote, you make it much more difficult for poor people to vote.
    In practice, barriers to voting are a Republican Party device to discourage poor people from voting against the party of the rich.

  592. As an aside, I have other objections that have to do with my belief that it should not be too easy for people to vote. It is civic duty and a responsibility for the citizen that should not be treated like an Americas Got Talent vote.
    If there were some way we could impose barriers to voting which had equal impact on every member of the electorate, then we could discuss the merits of this idea. But, obviously, there isn’t.
    In practice, if you make it difficult to vote, you make it much more difficult for poor people to vote.
    In practice, barriers to voting are a Republican Party device to discourage poor people from voting against the party of the rich.

  593. We have early in-person voting in Virginia, which is what I’m doing. It starts September 18, and I’ll be casting my ballot before October. I’ve done it before this way, but in the past you needed an excuse. No longer.
    I’m also a poll worker, but haven’t been contacted to work yet.

  594. We have early in-person voting in Virginia, which is what I’m doing. It starts September 18, and I’ll be casting my ballot before October. I’ve done it before this way, but in the past you needed an excuse. No longer.
    I’m also a poll worker, but haven’t been contacted to work yet.

  595. just FYI…
    NC Board Of Elections:

    What prevents someone from voting absentee and then voting again in-person?
    If someone has voted an absentee ballot and then shows up to vote in person, the check-in system will alert the poll worker that the person has already voted.

  596. just FYI…
    NC Board Of Elections:

    What prevents someone from voting absentee and then voting again in-person?
    If someone has voted an absentee ballot and then shows up to vote in person, the check-in system will alert the poll worker that the person has already voted.

  599. Also from cleek’s link:

    If I’ve received my ballot by mail, may I still vote in person?
    Yes. You may still vote in person as long as you did not return your absentee ballot. Your absentee ballot will be spoiled after you vote in person.

    That seems to close off the flip side of He, Trump’s fraud attempt, i.e. MAGAts voting in person after they mail their ballots but before those ballots have been received.
    –TP

  600. Also from cleek’s link:

    If I’ve received my ballot by mail, may I still vote in person?
    Yes. You may still vote in person as long as you did not return your absentee ballot. Your absentee ballot will be spoiled after you vote in person.

    That seems to close off the flip side of He, Trump’s fraud attempt, i.e. MAGAts voting in person after they mail their ballots but before those ballots have been received.
    –TP

  601. what this will do is create a huge amount of ‘spoiled’ absentee ballots, which will then prove the existence of voter fraud.
    the fact that Republicans themselves caused this fraud will be lost on them.

  602. what this will do is create a huge amount of ‘spoiled’ absentee ballots, which will then prove the existence of voter fraud.
    the fact that Republicans themselves caused this fraud will be lost on them.

  603. “As an aside, I have other objections that have to do with my belief that it should not be too easy for people to vote. It is civic duty and a responsibility for the citizen that should not be treated like an Americas Got Talent vote.”
    This statement has been rolling around in my addled mind the past few days.
    Finally, Marty finds something on which he wants to impose stricter regulation, and of course, it’s voting.
    Make it harder to vote.
    Make it easier to pollute.
    Make it harder to vote.
    Make it easier to purchase and carry weapons of war in public.
    Make it harder to vote.
    Make it easier to discriminate on the basis of whatever discriminatory whim conservatives would like to return to.
    Make it harder to vote.
    Make it harder to get tested for Covid-19.
    Make it harder to vote.
    Make it easier for healthcare insurers to deny coverage.
    Make it harder to vote.
    Make it easier for meatpacking laborers to contract Covid-19 and be fired for doing so.
    Make it harder to vote.
    Make it easier to destroy labor unions.
    Make it harder to vote.
    Make it easier for anonymous malign dark money to destroy government.
    Make it harder to vote.
    Make it easier to pay no taxes.
    Make it harder to vote.
    Make it easier to despoil the planet with global warming and wipe species off the face of the earth.
    Make it harder to vote.
    Make it easier to commit financial fraud.
    Make it harder to vote.
    Make it easier for the President of the United States and his corrupt mob family to steal from the taxpayer.
    Make it harder to vote.
    Make it easier for foreign influences to undermine the vote.
    Make it harder to vote.
    Make it easier to steal children from their parents, put them in cages, and kill them.
    “should not be treated like an Americas Got Talent vote.”
    What an extraordinary statement and four years too late, after a corrupt, no-talent reality show grifter and beauty queen pussy-grabber is elected to run our world by deplorable populist, racist trash who believe the WWE is a sport.
    Make it harder to vote ….. for third party candidates as dumbasses did in 2016.
    Kanye West, yet another Jesus-grifting con, got no talent for governing, like his white groomer in the White House.

  604. “As an aside, I have other objections that have to do with my belief that it should not be too easy for people to vote. It is civic duty and a responsibility for the citizen that should not be treated like an Americas Got Talent vote.”
    This statement has been rolling around in my addled mind the past few days.
    Finally, Marty finds something on which he wants to impose stricter regulation, and of course, it’s voting.
    Make it harder to vote.
    Make it easier to pollute.
    Make it harder to vote.
    Make it easier to purchase and carry weapons of war in public.
    Make it harder to vote.
    Make it easier to discriminate on the basis of whatever discriminatory whim conservatives would like to return to.
    Make it harder to vote.
    Make it harder to get tested for Covid-19.
    Make it harder to vote.
    Make it easier for healthcare insurers to deny coverage.
    Make it harder to vote.
    Make it easier for meatpacking laborers to contract Covid-19 and be fired for doing so.
    Make it harder to vote.
    Make it easier to destroy labor unions.
    Make it harder to vote.
    Make it easier for anonymous malign dark money to destroy government.
    Make it harder to vote.
    Make it easier to pay no taxes.
    Make it harder to vote.
    Make it easier to despoil the planet with global warming and wipe species off the face of the earth.
    Make it harder to vote.
    Make it easier to commit financial fraud.
    Make it harder to vote.
    Make it easier for the President of the United States and his corrupt mob family to steal from the taxpayer.
    Make it harder to vote.
    Make it easier for foreign influences to undermine the vote.
    Make it harder to vote.
    Make it easier to steal children from their parents, put them in cages, and kill them.
    “should not be treated like an Americas Got Talent vote.”
    What an extraordinary statement and four years too late, after a corrupt, no-talent reality show grifter and beauty queen pussy-grabber is elected to run our world by deplorable populist, racist trash who believe the WWE is a sport.
    Make it harder to vote ….. for third party candidates as dumbasses did in 2016.
    Kanye West, yet another Jesus-grifting con, got no talent for governing, like his white groomer in the White House.

  605. Trump has both anti-vaxers and pro-unproven vaccine peddlers, in many cases the same filth and vermin, in his pocket.
    Gotta say, that’s f*cking popular talented cream rising to the top, like an oil slick from the Titanic.
    The whirlwind is in the thorn tree.
    And we must kick against the subhuman pricks.

  606. Trump has both anti-vaxers and pro-unproven vaccine peddlers, in many cases the same filth and vermin, in his pocket.
    Gotta say, that’s f*cking popular talented cream rising to the top, like an oil slick from the Titanic.
    The whirlwind is in the thorn tree.
    And we must kick against the subhuman pricks.

  609. If there were some way we could impose barriers to voting which had equal impact on every member of the electorate, then we could discuss the merits of this idea. But, obviously, there isn’t.
    I’m not sure it’s obvious. Or even correct any more. Consider
    Increasingly, voting is done on what are essentially computers. It seems entirely possible to program them so that, in order to vote, you first have to answer a few randomly selected questions demonstrating basic knowledge of civics — how the government works, etc. Publish the questions (and answers), so anyone with minimal interest in voting can inform himself. Even if he missed high school civics class.
    Doing something similar for mail-in voting might require adding a page to the ballot, but little more.
    We can debate whether this is a good idea or not. And how to go about getting agreement on a set of possible questions and answers to choose from. But it does seem possible.
    P.S. I don’t claim to have come up with the idea myself, although I don’t recall where I read it.

  610. If there were some way we could impose barriers to voting which had equal impact on every member of the electorate, then we could discuss the merits of this idea. But, obviously, there isn’t.
    I’m not sure it’s obvious. Or even correct any more. Consider
    Increasingly, voting is done on what are essentially computers. It seems entirely possible to program them so that, in order to vote, you first have to answer a few randomly selected questions demonstrating basic knowledge of civics — how the government works, etc. Publish the questions (and answers), so anyone with minimal interest in voting can inform himself. Even if he missed high school civics class.
    Doing something similar for mail-in voting might require adding a page to the ballot, but little more.
    We can debate whether this is a good idea or not. And how to go about getting agreement on a set of possible questions and answers to choose from. But it does seem possible.
    P.S. I don’t claim to have come up with the idea myself, although I don’t recall where I read it.

  611. Trump has both anti-vaxers and pro-unproven vaccine peddlers, in many cases the same filth and vermin, in his pocket.
    The attraction for the anti-vaxxers is obvious. If they’re lucky, the untested vaccine will get rolled out by Trump. And then prove to have major negative side effects. Which will prove they were right all along. Even though, absent Trump, vaccines routinely get tested extensively precisely to avoid that.

  612. Trump has both anti-vaxers and pro-unproven vaccine peddlers, in many cases the same filth and vermin, in his pocket.
    The attraction for the anti-vaxxers is obvious. If they’re lucky, the untested vaccine will get rolled out by Trump. And then prove to have major negative side effects. Which will prove they were right all along. Even though, absent Trump, vaccines routinely get tested extensively precisely to avoid that.

  615. JT’s 11:09 AM link references the same source material as the link in the comment Posted by: sapient | September 02, 2020 at 03:12 AM did. It’s interesting and scary stuff.
    I think there was no commentary on it earlier because of the time of day sapient commented and because the comment ended up being the last on the page before a new page of comments started. It seems those comments are more easily lost in the conversation.
    I did read the whole thing, though, and recommend others do so.

  616. JT’s 11:09 AM link references the same source material as the link in the comment Posted by: sapient | September 02, 2020 at 03:12 AM did. It’s interesting and scary stuff.
    I think there was no commentary on it earlier because of the time of day sapient commented and because the comment ended up being the last on the page before a new page of comments started. It seems those comments are more easily lost in the conversation.
    I did read the whole thing, though, and recommend others do so.

  619. The nice thing about building the test into the voting machines is that it assures that everybody is required to take it.
    The real challenge would be coming up with a test that Trump (and his fans) would pass — assuming that that’s desirable. Given the level of ignorance they display on the subject.

  620. The nice thing about building the test into the voting machines is that it assures that everybody is required to take it.
    The real challenge would be coming up with a test that Trump (and his fans) would pass — assuming that that’s desirable. Given the level of ignorance they display on the subject.

  621. voting is a state-level issue, so you’re going to get different tests from state to state. and some of them are going to be, um, designed poorly…

  622. voting is a state-level issue, so you’re going to get different tests from state to state. and some of them are going to be, um, designed poorly…

  625. I don’t even know why we’re talking about this crap. If you’re legally eligible and properly registered, you get to vote. End of story (says me).

  626. I don’t even know why we’re talking about this crap. If you’re legally eligible and properly registered, you get to vote. End of story (says me).

  627. Jen Rubin has had it with the GOP.

    Beyond expressions of overt racism and ongoing support for totems of the Confederacy, denial of systemic racism is now the default setting for virtually all Republicans, including the president, attorney general and members of Congress. Statistical data (not only in the criminal justice system), the series of unjustified police killings of African Americans, the disproportionate number of Black people afflicted by covid-19, and nearly every other social or economic indicator (from life span to wealth) reveal that the tentacles of racism still have a stranglehold on the country. The notion that everything is fine and that no institutional racism exists is the defense mechanism of a party invested in white supremacy. A party that willfully denies the painful reality of endemic racial inequity — and, therefore, lacks the desire to remedy it — cannot responsibly govern in a multiracial society. (Interestingly, in the wake of the tear-gassing of peaceful protesters in Lafayette Square, numerous high-ranking military leaders acknowledged the scourge of ongoing racism. The U.S. military, it seems, is far more progressive and honest on the issue of race than the GOP.)

    [her nine links left out so that TypePad wouldn’t choke on that]

  628. Jen Rubin has had it with the GOP.

    Beyond expressions of overt racism and ongoing support for totems of the Confederacy, denial of systemic racism is now the default setting for virtually all Republicans, including the president, attorney general and members of Congress. Statistical data (not only in the criminal justice system), the series of unjustified police killings of African Americans, the disproportionate number of Black people afflicted by covid-19, and nearly every other social or economic indicator (from life span to wealth) reveal that the tentacles of racism still have a stranglehold on the country. The notion that everything is fine and that no institutional racism exists is the defense mechanism of a party invested in white supremacy. A party that willfully denies the painful reality of endemic racial inequity — and, therefore, lacks the desire to remedy it — cannot responsibly govern in a multiracial society. (Interestingly, in the wake of the tear-gassing of peaceful protesters in Lafayette Square, numerous high-ranking military leaders acknowledged the scourge of ongoing racism. The U.S. military, it seems, is far more progressive and honest on the issue of race than the GOP.)

    [her nine links left out so that TypePad wouldn’t choke on that]

  631. The U.S. military, it seems, is far more progressive and honest on the issue of race than the GOP.
    Not really surprising. Look at when the military integrated. How many years (decades?) later was it that parts of the civilian world were still fighting a rearguard action on this? (Not to mention Trump seemingly thinks it is still a worthwhile issue for ramping up his base.)

  632. The U.S. military, it seems, is far more progressive and honest on the issue of race than the GOP.
    Not really surprising. Look at when the military integrated. How many years (decades?) later was it that parts of the civilian world were still fighting a rearguard action on this? (Not to mention Trump seemingly thinks it is still a worthwhile issue for ramping up his base.)

  637. WaPo finally got wise to the private-browser workaround.
    If you hit the X to stop downloading as soon as the text starts to appear, you are still good however.

  638. WaPo finally got wise to the private-browser workaround.
    If you hit the X to stop downloading as soon as the text starts to appear, you are still good however.

  639. WaPo finally got wise to the private-browser workaround.
    Clear your cookies! 😉
    I read WaPo articles in Firefox with Adblock Plus and NoScript extensions, and have Firefox set not to store any history. Pictures are blurred, text is fine.
    For Chrome I block ads but not Javascript. I can see one WaPo (or Boston Globe) article just fine, then I have to clear cookies to see another. I know, I know, most people don’t want to clear cookies all the time, but I consider it to be an acceptable trade-off.
    I’m still waiting for someone to figure out an equitable payment structure for online content. I do kick in some $ from time to time to the news sites I use most; actual subscriptions to all of them would bankrupt me, and I don’t read any one outlet enough to justify the full subscription price anyhow.
    I don’t know if this Alexandra Petri column on the D convention’s roll call was linked here. I’m pretty sure I’ve never laughed harder at anything in my life. You have to be able to see the pics to get the full effect. The Maine state rep with the B&B on a 25-acre organic farm on a lake is my rep. Black, married gay organic farmer, also an adoptee, so coming to the legislature with a very widely informed POV. Cool guy, term-limited out for now.

  640. WaPo finally got wise to the private-browser workaround.
    Clear your cookies! 😉
    I read WaPo articles in Firefox with Adblock Plus and NoScript extensions, and have Firefox set not to store any history. Pictures are blurred, text is fine.
    For Chrome I block ads but not Javascript. I can see one WaPo (or Boston Globe) article just fine, then I have to clear cookies to see another. I know, I know, most people don’t want to clear cookies all the time, but I consider it to be an acceptable trade-off.
    I’m still waiting for someone to figure out an equitable payment structure for online content. I do kick in some $ from time to time to the news sites I use most; actual subscriptions to all of them would bankrupt me, and I don’t read any one outlet enough to justify the full subscription price anyhow.
    I don’t know if this Alexandra Petri column on the D convention’s roll call was linked here. I’m pretty sure I’ve never laughed harder at anything in my life. You have to be able to see the pics to get the full effect. The Maine state rep with the B&B on a 25-acre organic farm on a lake is my rep. Black, married gay organic farmer, also an adoptee, so coming to the legislature with a very widely informed POV. Cool guy, term-limited out for now.

  641. WaPo finally got wise to the private-browser workaround.
    i finally broke down and got a subscription. it’s the only one i have.

  642. WaPo finally got wise to the private-browser workaround.
    i finally broke down and got a subscription. it’s the only one i have.

  643. I had somehow missed this. (H/T the Economist)

    Mike Pompeo, America’s secretary of state, unveiled sanctions against senior members of the International Criminal Court, including its chief prosecutor, Fatou Bensouda. He said the body, based in The Hague, continually “targets Americans” without jurisdiction. The country never joined the ICC. The Trump administration is particularly piqued by an investigation into alleged war crimes by American soldiers in Afghanistan.

    Because, after all, once you’ve speciously trashed the WHO, you can’t just stop….

  644. I had somehow missed this. (H/T the Economist)

    Mike Pompeo, America’s secretary of state, unveiled sanctions against senior members of the International Criminal Court, including its chief prosecutor, Fatou Bensouda. He said the body, based in The Hague, continually “targets Americans” without jurisdiction. The country never joined the ICC. The Trump administration is particularly piqued by an investigation into alleged war crimes by American soldiers in Afghanistan.

    Because, after all, once you’ve speciously trashed the WHO, you can’t just stop….

  645. For Chrome I block ads but not Javascript. I can see one WaPo (or Boston Globe) article just fine, then I have to clear cookies to see another.
    If you open it in an incognito tab, the cookies get cleared automatically when you close that and go back to the browser. No manual clearing of cookies required.

  646. For Chrome I block ads but not Javascript. I can see one WaPo (or Boston Globe) article just fine, then I have to clear cookies to see another.
    If you open it in an incognito tab, the cookies get cleared automatically when you close that and go back to the browser. No manual clearing of cookies required.

  647. Thanks, wj, I’ll give incognito a try.
    Also, for anyone interested who didn’t see the roll call (as I did not, until later), it’s here. Maine is at about 19 minutes, but the whole thing is fun, all the more with Petri’s guidance. I got especially nostalgic about the Massachusetts woman’s accent (RI too, for that matter), not having been out of Maine for 8 months and counting, and making sure to stay away from tourists on those rare occasions when I do actually leave the property.

  648. Thanks, wj, I’ll give incognito a try.
    Also, for anyone interested who didn’t see the roll call (as I did not, until later), it’s here. Maine is at about 19 minutes, but the whole thing is fun, all the more with Petri’s guidance. I got especially nostalgic about the Massachusetts woman’s accent (RI too, for that matter), not having been out of Maine for 8 months and counting, and making sure to stay away from tourists on those rare occasions when I do actually leave the property.

  649. If you hit the X to stop downloading as soon as the text starts to appear, you are still good however.
    I tried that on both Chrome and Firefox in incognito/private mode. Didn’t work on either one. It momentarily delayed the subscription block, but that was it.
    Maybe I should try the super out-of-date version of IE that’s still on my work computer for some reason.

  650. If you hit the X to stop downloading as soon as the text starts to appear, you are still good however.
    I tried that on both Chrome and Firefox in incognito/private mode. Didn’t work on either one. It momentarily delayed the subscription block, but that was it.
    Maybe I should try the super out-of-date version of IE that’s still on my work computer for some reason.

  651. i finally broke down and got a subscription. it’s the only one i have.
    I love the Washington Post these days. I also watch it for live streams of hearings, speeches, etc.

  652. i finally broke down and got a subscription. it’s the only one i have.
    I love the Washington Post these days. I also watch it for live streams of hearings, speeches, etc.

  653. i love reading Rubin and Max Boot and the other conservatives wringing their hands over Trump. they f’ing hate what the GOP has become because of him.
    nothing like a lover spurned.

  654. i love reading Rubin and Max Boot and the other conservatives wringing their hands over Trump. they f’ing hate what the GOP has become because of him.
    nothing like a lover spurned.

  655. I tried that on both Chrome and Firefox in incognito/private mode. Didn’t work on either one. It momentarily delayed the subscription block, but that was it.
    Maybe I should try the super out-of-date version of IE that’s still on my work computer for some reason.
    I have a bookmark that I’ve been using on weather dot com for years, of this form:
    https://weather.com/weather/tenday/l/xxxxx:4:US
    where the xxxxx is replaced by a zip code. (Also a variant where instead of “tenday” it says “hourbyhour”.)
    For years I used this bookmark on my stripped bare Firefox, with no problem. Then one day a few years ago it stopped working on Firefox, but it worked on Chrome as long as I was willing to put up with nagging messages about allowing ads.
    At one point, feeling guilty, I did allow ads, and I immediately started to have problems with the browser and beyond. As soon as I turned off the ads, the problems went away. So, back to no ads (no thanks to bugs, viruses, etc.), but feeling guilty.
    A very short time ago, weather dot com (on my Chrome, with ads blocked) was made impossible to use with ads blocked.
    But guess what? Weirdly enough, I can once again look at the weather on ad-free, Javascript-free Firefox.
    No big point, except that the landscape keeps shifting between which browsers, in which settings, will do what.

  656. I tried that on both Chrome and Firefox in incognito/private mode. Didn’t work on either one. It momentarily delayed the subscription block, but that was it.
    Maybe I should try the super out-of-date version of IE that’s still on my work computer for some reason.
    I have a bookmark that I’ve been using on weather dot com for years, of this form:
    https://weather.com/weather/tenday/l/xxxxx:4:US
    where the xxxxx is replaced by a zip code. (Also a variant where instead of “tenday” it says “hourbyhour”.)
    For years I used this bookmark on my stripped bare Firefox, with no problem. Then one day a few years ago it stopped working on Firefox, but it worked on Chrome as long as I was willing to put up with nagging messages about allowing ads.
    At one point, feeling guilty, I did allow ads, and I immediately started to have problems with the browser and beyond. As soon as I turned off the ads, the problems went away. So, back to no ads (no thanks to bugs, viruses, etc.), but feeling guilty.
    A very short time ago, weather dot com (on my Chrome, with ads blocked) was made impossible to use with ads blocked.
    But guess what? Weirdly enough, I can once again look at the weather on ad-free, Javascript-free Firefox.
    No big point, except that the landscape keeps shifting between which browsers, in which settings, will do what.

  657. Before I disappear again, I want to thank Donald for the link at 9:31 this morning to the long “The Trouble with Disparity” article.
    It brings back a memory: Long ago I took a class on diversity — I’m sure I’ve mentioned it, and maybe this very bit of it. In one of our readings there was a list of lots of ways in which black people are disadvantaged in the US, and one of them was something like, “Black people are disproportionately poor, and poor people are always the first and hardest hit in an economic downturn.”
    This was presented in the reading, and discussed in the class, as purely a matter of racism that had to be remedied…somehow.
    I was flabbergasted that people would accept without comment the notion that the poor, rather than the obscenely wealthy, should be the ones to take the brunt of economic downturns. And that was well before we had “progressed” to the current obscene level of wealth disparity.
    I don’t know why it’s so hard to grasp that both racism and obscene wealth disparities are blots on our collective life.

  658. Before I disappear again, I want to thank Donald for the link at 9:31 this morning to the long “The Trouble with Disparity” article.
    It brings back a memory: Long ago I took a class on diversity — I’m sure I’ve mentioned it, and maybe this very bit of it. In one of our readings there was a list of lots of ways in which black people are disadvantaged in the US, and one of them was something like, “Black people are disproportionately poor, and poor people are always the first and hardest hit in an economic downturn.”
    This was presented in the reading, and discussed in the class, as purely a matter of racism that had to be remedied…somehow.
    I was flabbergasted that people would accept without comment the notion that the poor, rather than the obscenely wealthy, should be the ones to take the brunt of economic downturns. And that was well before we had “progressed” to the current obscene level of wealth disparity.
    I don’t know why it’s so hard to grasp that both racism and obscene wealth disparities are blots on our collective life.

  659. i finally broke down and got a subscription
    Me too, and no regrets. So I currently have subscriptions to the NYT, WaPo and the New Yorker, and to my astonishment I use the last one least, and will not renew. I always used to love the New Yorker whenever I laid hands on one at other people’s houses, but now I barely look at it. I think it’s probably me, not them, and having limited attention these days. It may amuse to know that I have no subscriptions to UK publications, but I kick money in to the Guardian/Observer every once in a while to cover my reading there.

  660. i finally broke down and got a subscription
    Me too, and no regrets. So I currently have subscriptions to the NYT, WaPo and the New Yorker, and to my astonishment I use the last one least, and will not renew. I always used to love the New Yorker whenever I laid hands on one at other people’s houses, but now I barely look at it. I think it’s probably me, not them, and having limited attention these days. It may amuse to know that I have no subscriptions to UK publications, but I kick money in to the Guardian/Observer every once in a while to cover my reading there.

  661. The reason why the EVIL Trump placed a cut-off date of January 1 on the nationwide rental and mortgage eviction hiatus in his “executive order”, which is full of enforcement holes anyway, is so that if Biden wins the election, these filth, like a retreating army of diseased, malign Orcs, can wreak havoc on the economy for the incoming Administration as 40 million Americans hit the sidewalks and enter homelessness, bankruptcy, and front line pandemic vulnerability.
    That’s one of many national, traitorous acts of sabotage the Trump-branded Republican Party will attempt in their retreating raping, pillaging, and arson as they grab their stinking f*cking guns and begin killing the Other.
    If Biden loses via a stolen election, which is being promised daily by Trump and the Barr, the savage violent Hell for America will be even fresher.

  662. The reason why the EVIL Trump placed a cut-off date of January 1 on the nationwide rental and mortgage eviction hiatus in his “executive order”, which is full of enforcement holes anyway, is so that if Biden wins the election, these filth, like a retreating army of diseased, malign Orcs, can wreak havoc on the economy for the incoming Administration as 40 million Americans hit the sidewalks and enter homelessness, bankruptcy, and front line pandemic vulnerability.
    That’s one of many national, traitorous acts of sabotage the Trump-branded Republican Party will attempt in their retreating raping, pillaging, and arson as they grab their stinking f*cking guns and begin killing the Other.
    If Biden loses via a stolen election, which is being promised daily by Trump and the Barr, the savage violent Hell for America will be even fresher.

  663. All liberals and Democrats should be getting ready to do what needs to be done to animals like this piece of fascist trump dog shit:
    https://digbysblog.net/2020/09/vigilante-sheriff/
    The government will not protect us from him.
    There is no rule of law.
    Inaction is not a plan. You know what happens, Clarke, with inaction against genocidal scum like you?

  664. All liberals and Democrats should be getting ready to do what needs to be done to animals like this piece of fascist trump dog shit:
    https://digbysblog.net/2020/09/vigilante-sheriff/
    The government will not protect us from him.
    There is no rule of law.
    Inaction is not a plan. You know what happens, Clarke, with inaction against genocidal scum like you?

  665. I always used to love the New Yorker whenever I laid hands on one at other people’s houses, but now I barely look at it.
    i like to get a New Yorker when i take a flight. so maybe once every 18 mos. i get some of that smug NYC vibe and then a couple hours later i leave the magazine in the seat-back pocket and get on with things. it’s like a little vacation to uptown Manhattan on the way to somewhere else.

  666. I always used to love the New Yorker whenever I laid hands on one at other people’s houses, but now I barely look at it.
    i like to get a New Yorker when i take a flight. so maybe once every 18 mos. i get some of that smug NYC vibe and then a couple hours later i leave the magazine in the seat-back pocket and get on with things. it’s like a little vacation to uptown Manhattan on the way to somewhere else.

  667. Before I disappear again, I want to thank Donald for the link at 9:31 this morning to the long “The Trouble with Disparity” article.
    Yes, and also for his 9:34 from September 2. Both were very good.
    My issue with the second article – the “Trouble With Disparity” one – is that relative poverty is not the only issue that black people face.
    My sense is that one way that people try to address racial inequity in this country is to reduce it to economic terms – black people are relatively poorer than whites, so they suffer the ills that plague poor people at higher rates than white people.
    That may be so.
    But black people *at all points in the economic spectrum* are subject to discrimination that white people at pretty much any point in the economic spectrum are not.
    That isn’t to say that poor white people aren’t subject to discrimination and ill treatment. Not just poor, for that matter – blue collar white people, white people with distinct accents, white people who for whatever reason fit somebody or others’ stereotype of “low class” – are subject to discrimination.
    Just not on the basis of skin color. Which black people are subject to.
    Racial animus and disrespect for poor people are both very real phenomena, and in some populations they overlap.
    But they are distinct. And have distinct solutions.
    Poor people need a path to not being poor. There is no path to black people not being black, and no such path should be required.
    Black people being black shouldn’t matter. It should be about as relevant as whether someone’s eyes are blue or brown, or whether someone’s hair is blond or red or brown or black.
    Don’t stay away too long, Janie!

  668. Before I disappear again, I want to thank Donald for the link at 9:31 this morning to the long “The Trouble with Disparity” article.
    Yes, and also for his 9:34 from September 2. Both were very good.
    My issue with the second article – the “Trouble With Disparity” one – is that relative poverty is not the only issue that black people face.
    My sense is that one way that people try to address racial inequity in this country is to reduce it to economic terms – black people are relatively poorer than whites, so they suffer the ills that plague poor people at higher rates than white people.
    That may be so.
    But black people *at all points in the economic spectrum* are subject to discrimination that white people at pretty much any point in the economic spectrum are not.
    That isn’t to say that poor white people aren’t subject to discrimination and ill treatment. Not just poor, for that matter – blue collar white people, white people with distinct accents, white people who for whatever reason fit somebody or others’ stereotype of “low class” – are subject to discrimination.
    Just not on the basis of skin color. Which black people are subject to.
    Racial animus and disrespect for poor people are both very real phenomena, and in some populations they overlap.
    But they are distinct. And have distinct solutions.
    Poor people need a path to not being poor. There is no path to black people not being black, and no such path should be required.
    Black people being black shouldn’t matter. It should be about as relevant as whether someone’s eyes are blue or brown, or whether someone’s hair is blond or red or brown or black.
    Don’t stay away too long, Janie!

  669. “The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.
    Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.
    But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that’d still be keeping his feet dry in ten years’ time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.
    This was the Captain Samuel Vimes ‘Boots’ theory of socioeconomic unfairness.”

    – Terry Pratchett

  670. “The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.
    Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.
    But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that’d still be keeping his feet dry in ten years’ time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.
    This was the Captain Samuel Vimes ‘Boots’ theory of socioeconomic unfairness.”

    – Terry Pratchett

  673. Thanks Janie.
    My own feeling is that the class reductionists and race reductionists should do a bit less arguing . Both sides make good points and one doesn’t really need to take sides. Racism is a huge problem and the plight of the poor and lower middle class ( or working class and I mean all colors) is a huge problem. They overlap. If you are black and well off you will still sometimes get hit over the head with racism and if you are white and struggling “ white privilege” won’t pay the bills. If you are black and poor in this country you have get hit from both ends.
    With some political issues there is a clear cut right and wrong ( imho) but the classism vs racism argument currently raging at Crookedtimber and in other places seems a bit unnecessary.

  674. Thanks Janie.
    My own feeling is that the class reductionists and race reductionists should do a bit less arguing . Both sides make good points and one doesn’t really need to take sides. Racism is a huge problem and the plight of the poor and lower middle class ( or working class and I mean all colors) is a huge problem. They overlap. If you are black and well off you will still sometimes get hit over the head with racism and if you are white and struggling “ white privilege” won’t pay the bills. If you are black and poor in this country you have get hit from both ends.
    With some political issues there is a clear cut right and wrong ( imho) but the classism vs racism argument currently raging at Crookedtimber and in other places seems a bit unnecessary.

  677. …relative poverty is not the only issue that black people face…
    Poor people need a path to not being poor. There is no path to black people not being black, and no such path should be required.
    Black people being black shouldn’t matter. It should be about as relevant as whether someone’s eyes are blue or brown, or whether someone’s hair is blond or red or brown or black.
    This is a good way to frame it, and I totally agree. My befuddlement about the discussion I referred to was not because I want to conflate two problems that overlap but aren’t identical, or deny that black people face uncountable problems besides wealth disparity, but that people seemed to accept that vast disparities of wealth were just the way life is, nothing much to be done about it as long as black people didn’t suffer from the disparities disproportionately. Like, “the poor you shall always have with you.” (Or whatever he said.)
    Maybe part of it is/was that people just don’t understand math. A self-identified RN had a letter in our local paper today in which she said this:

    As of Aug. 22, there had been 4,317 cases reported by the Maine CDC. Of those cases, only 130 have died; 3,718 have recovered, leaving only 469 active cases in the state. That is only a 3% death rate. According to WHO, there have been 22,812,491 cases reported to date worldwide and only 795,132 of those have died (again a 4% death rate).

    [My bold-jm]
    And this: “How much longer will we continue to give up our rights to liberty and the pursuit of happiness just for a few more days of physical health?”
    Either she thinks 10 million extra American deaths (3%, if everyone gets it, which seems to be the latest right wing fuck you libs dogma) are just ducky, and losing fifteen or twenty years of expected life is “a few days” (as long as it’s not her ten or fifteen years, I’ll be) or she thinks she’s being cleverly manipulative in her choice of words…or…she doesn’t understand math. Maybe all of the above?
    I’m thinking of submitting a response via op-ed using a take-off on Shirley Jackson’s The Lottery. People are also having meltdowns over high school sports being postponed or canceled, especially football, and I want to ask them what they would have said if, a couple of years ago, someone had proposed that we have a statewide lottery each week of the high school sports season to pick the Mainer for that week who would be shot to death for football.
    And we can throw in another feature to the pre-pandemic lottery hypothetical while we’re at it, something like for every ten weddings in the state of Maine we’ll have another lottery to pick who dies so people can party. And connected to that same story, random citizens will also have to pay with their lives so people can have church services in crowded spaces with no masks. Liberty for God’s people is Pastor Todd Bell’s brave cry!
    Pastor Todd Bell’s deity is a bloodthirsty one, one that rewards murderous arrogance in those who have appointed themselves his (?) spokespeople.
    There has been a ton of reporting on the wedding that triggered this outbreak: an inn “misunderstanding” the rules about how many attendees can be in the facility; people not wearing masks; people not social distancing; people not giving a flying fuck, in short.
    I am so sick of all this shit…..

  678. …relative poverty is not the only issue that black people face…
    Poor people need a path to not being poor. There is no path to black people not being black, and no such path should be required.
    Black people being black shouldn’t matter. It should be about as relevant as whether someone’s eyes are blue or brown, or whether someone’s hair is blond or red or brown or black.
    This is a good way to frame it, and I totally agree. My befuddlement about the discussion I referred to was not because I want to conflate two problems that overlap but aren’t identical, or deny that black people face uncountable problems besides wealth disparity, but that people seemed to accept that vast disparities of wealth were just the way life is, nothing much to be done about it as long as black people didn’t suffer from the disparities disproportionately. Like, “the poor you shall always have with you.” (Or whatever he said.)
    Maybe part of it is/was that people just don’t understand math. A self-identified RN had a letter in our local paper today in which she said this:

    As of Aug. 22, there had been 4,317 cases reported by the Maine CDC. Of those cases, only 130 have died; 3,718 have recovered, leaving only 469 active cases in the state. That is only a 3% death rate. According to WHO, there have been 22,812,491 cases reported to date worldwide and only 795,132 of those have died (again a 4% death rate).

    [My bold-jm]
    And this: “How much longer will we continue to give up our rights to liberty and the pursuit of happiness just for a few more days of physical health?”
    Either she thinks 10 million extra American deaths (3%, if everyone gets it, which seems to be the latest right wing fuck you libs dogma) are just ducky, and losing fifteen or twenty years of expected life is “a few days” (as long as it’s not her ten or fifteen years, I’ll be) or she thinks she’s being cleverly manipulative in her choice of words…or…she doesn’t understand math. Maybe all of the above?
    I’m thinking of submitting a response via op-ed using a take-off on Shirley Jackson’s The Lottery. People are also having meltdowns over high school sports being postponed or canceled, especially football, and I want to ask them what they would have said if, a couple of years ago, someone had proposed that we have a statewide lottery each week of the high school sports season to pick the Mainer for that week who would be shot to death for football.
    And we can throw in another feature to the pre-pandemic lottery hypothetical while we’re at it, something like for every ten weddings in the state of Maine we’ll have another lottery to pick who dies so people can party. And connected to that same story, random citizens will also have to pay with their lives so people can have church services in crowded spaces with no masks. Liberty for God’s people is Pastor Todd Bell’s brave cry!
    Pastor Todd Bell’s deity is a bloodthirsty one, one that rewards murderous arrogance in those who have appointed themselves his (?) spokespeople.
    There has been a ton of reporting on the wedding that triggered this outbreak: an inn “misunderstanding” the rules about how many attendees can be in the facility; people not wearing masks; people not social distancing; people not giving a flying fuck, in short.
    I am so sick of all this shit…..

  679. Thanks Donald and russell. We cross-posted — I read on one browser and write on another, which increases the cross-posting possibilities.
    Anyhow, I’m going out to the barn to play with the newest kitten now. She doesn’t know anything about race, poverty, or COVID-19, she just likes to run around like a mad thing and occasionally stop to purr and get petted.

  680. Thanks Donald and russell. We cross-posted — I read on one browser and write on another, which increases the cross-posting possibilities.
    Anyhow, I’m going out to the barn to play with the newest kitten now. She doesn’t know anything about race, poverty, or COVID-19, she just likes to run around like a mad thing and occasionally stop to purr and get petted.

  681. I will add one more thing about the discussion that bothered me so much. It was all white people in the class. In fact, 18 (?) white women and a couple of white men, and all but two of the people in the class were teachers in public schools in Maine. (I was one of the two non-teachers.)
    A very big long story in itself, not for today.

  682. I will add one more thing about the discussion that bothered me so much. It was all white people in the class. In fact, 18 (?) white women and a couple of white men, and all but two of the people in the class were teachers in public schools in Maine. (I was one of the two non-teachers.)
    A very big long story in itself, not for today.

  683. JanieM: “Maybe part of it is/was that people just don’t understand math.”
    Right you are. Or to quote Talking Malibu Barbie “Math is hard!”.
    Was browsing the Wikipedia entry on prime number, as one does, and saw all the amusing categories of primes. Sure, the well known Mersenne primes, but did you know there are “Happy primes”?
    Obligatory XKCD: https://xkcd.com/410/

  684. JanieM: “Maybe part of it is/was that people just don’t understand math.”
    Right you are. Or to quote Talking Malibu Barbie “Math is hard!”.
    Was browsing the Wikipedia entry on prime number, as one does, and saw all the amusing categories of primes. Sure, the well known Mersenne primes, but did you know there are “Happy primes”?
    Obligatory XKCD: https://xkcd.com/410/

  687. Since we are now onto the topic of intersectionality, here’s a good discussion of the topic with the person who coined the term and some history and current context. Vox usually does a good job of bridging the gap between academic writing and a non-academic audience:
    https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/2019/5/20/18542843/intersectionality-conservatism-law-race-gender-discrimination
    As she detailed in an article written for the Baffler in 2017, critical race theory emerged in the 1980s and ’90s among a group of legal scholars in response to what seemed to Crenshaw and her colleagues like a false consensus: that discrimination and racism in the law were irrational, and “that once the irrational distortions of bias were removed, the underlying legal and socioeconomic order would revert to a neutral, benign state of impersonally apportioned justice.”
    This was, she argued, a delusion as comforting as it was dangerous. Crenshaw didn’t believe racism ceased to exist in 1965 with the passage of the Civil Rights Act, nor that racism was a mere multi-century aberration that, once corrected through legislative action, would no longer impact the law or the people who rely upon it.

  688. Since we are now onto the topic of intersectionality, here’s a good discussion of the topic with the person who coined the term and some history and current context. Vox usually does a good job of bridging the gap between academic writing and a non-academic audience:
    https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/2019/5/20/18542843/intersectionality-conservatism-law-race-gender-discrimination
    As she detailed in an article written for the Baffler in 2017, critical race theory emerged in the 1980s and ’90s among a group of legal scholars in response to what seemed to Crenshaw and her colleagues like a false consensus: that discrimination and racism in the law were irrational, and “that once the irrational distortions of bias were removed, the underlying legal and socioeconomic order would revert to a neutral, benign state of impersonally apportioned justice.”
    This was, she argued, a delusion as comforting as it was dangerous. Crenshaw didn’t believe racism ceased to exist in 1965 with the passage of the Civil Rights Act, nor that racism was a mere multi-century aberration that, once corrected through legislative action, would no longer impact the law or the people who rely upon it.

  689. I’m down with the “both of them are problems” approach, but I tend to talk more about race because of my circumstances. While Japan has its own problems with wealth inequality, they aren’t as bad as the US. Plus health insurance, which seems to be a big magnifier of differences.
    And concerning race, being in Japan, I catch a lot of the assumptions and lazy thinking with the main differences being I’m a cis white(-ish) guy (and even with that, being half Japanese is more of a leg up) and I know that I chose (for various values of choose) to live in Japan. So I get a lot more opportunities to examine what I think is privilege and why it might be a problem. And I can imagine how corrosive it must feel if I didn’t ‘choose’ my situation.
    So, when I talk, you are probably going to hear more about race than about class. Doesn’t mean that I dismiss it, just means that it’s the subject I can bring more experiences to bear on.
    The Vox article was quite interesting, I didn’t realize that intersectionality was a concept from legal philosophy. It also explains why, when I have tried to read up on intersectionality in the academic literature, I’ve always felt that it was like a plastic model with a few pieces missing, I suppose because some of the context and discussion is going on in law journals. At any rate, it might be worthwhile to look at the article that coined the idea of privilege.
    https://www.racialequitytools.org/resourcefiles/mcintosh.pdf

  690. I’m down with the “both of them are problems” approach, but I tend to talk more about race because of my circumstances. While Japan has its own problems with wealth inequality, they aren’t as bad as the US. Plus health insurance, which seems to be a big magnifier of differences.
    And concerning race, being in Japan, I catch a lot of the assumptions and lazy thinking with the main differences being I’m a cis white(-ish) guy (and even with that, being half Japanese is more of a leg up) and I know that I chose (for various values of choose) to live in Japan. So I get a lot more opportunities to examine what I think is privilege and why it might be a problem. And I can imagine how corrosive it must feel if I didn’t ‘choose’ my situation.
    So, when I talk, you are probably going to hear more about race than about class. Doesn’t mean that I dismiss it, just means that it’s the subject I can bring more experiences to bear on.
    The Vox article was quite interesting, I didn’t realize that intersectionality was a concept from legal philosophy. It also explains why, when I have tried to read up on intersectionality in the academic literature, I’ve always felt that it was like a plastic model with a few pieces missing, I suppose because some of the context and discussion is going on in law journals. At any rate, it might be worthwhile to look at the article that coined the idea of privilege.
    https://www.racialequitytools.org/resourcefiles/mcintosh.pdf

  691. the class reductionists and race reductionists should do a bit less arguing . Both sides make good points and one doesn’t really need to take sides.
    Too right. But engaging in bitter arguments over meaningless differences has a long intellectual tradition. It would probably take something bigger than the literal end of the world to get them to knock it off.
    Meanwhile, of course, they do a great job of reducing the chances of actually doing something about any of the problems they claim to care about.

  692. the class reductionists and race reductionists should do a bit less arguing . Both sides make good points and one doesn’t really need to take sides.
    Too right. But engaging in bitter arguments over meaningless differences has a long intellectual tradition. It would probably take something bigger than the literal end of the world to get them to knock it off.
    Meanwhile, of course, they do a great job of reducing the chances of actually doing something about any of the problems they claim to care about.

  693. I want to ask them what they would have said if, a couple of years ago, someone had proposed that we have a statewide lottery each week of the high school sports season to pick the Mainer for that week who would be shot to death for football
    The level of fanaticism devoted to sports, especially high school football, totally boggles the mind. (And consider that Maine is a long ways from being the worst in this.)
    I’d say that it’s a pretty safe bet that, once you convinced them that there was a reason the trade-off was unavoidable, the answer would have been Yes, it’s worth the price. Because, you know, football!

  694. I want to ask them what they would have said if, a couple of years ago, someone had proposed that we have a statewide lottery each week of the high school sports season to pick the Mainer for that week who would be shot to death for football
    The level of fanaticism devoted to sports, especially high school football, totally boggles the mind. (And consider that Maine is a long ways from being the worst in this.)
    I’d say that it’s a pretty safe bet that, once you convinced them that there was a reason the trade-off was unavoidable, the answer would have been Yes, it’s worth the price. Because, you know, football!

  697. “What to do about the problem of ‘x'” is precisely the reason for all of those bitter arguments amongst the actual academics. Those are not just intellectual posturing. People are arguing for actual approaches to policy and are making those arguments to people who can influence policy.
    The communication problems start at one degree of separation, when people who have read or heard about the topics try to explain them with a fuzzy idea about the context and the intellectual histories involved, or when grass-roots activism grabs hold of a convenient concept and tries to apply it a la carte.

  698. “What to do about the problem of ‘x'” is precisely the reason for all of those bitter arguments amongst the actual academics. Those are not just intellectual posturing. People are arguing for actual approaches to policy and are making those arguments to people who can influence policy.
    The communication problems start at one degree of separation, when people who have read or heard about the topics try to explain them with a fuzzy idea about the context and the intellectual histories involved, or when grass-roots activism grabs hold of a convenient concept and tries to apply it a la carte.

  699. People are arguing for actual approaches to policy and are making those arguments to people who can influence policy.
    Honestly, this.
    Let’s look at the impeachment witnesses. They were career diplomats, and people who had spent their whole lives studying and understanding things.
    Marie Yovanovitch? Fiona Hill? Bill Taylor? Alexander Vindman?
    It makes me cry that people who have spent their whole lives understanding at a very granular a whole world of things … were just dismissed.
    I hate Republicans with my heart, soul, brain and any other organ or ephemera that can happen or be imagined. I hate them.

  700. People are arguing for actual approaches to policy and are making those arguments to people who can influence policy.
    Honestly, this.
    Let’s look at the impeachment witnesses. They were career diplomats, and people who had spent their whole lives studying and understanding things.
    Marie Yovanovitch? Fiona Hill? Bill Taylor? Alexander Vindman?
    It makes me cry that people who have spent their whole lives understanding at a very granular a whole world of things … were just dismissed.
    I hate Republicans with my heart, soul, brain and any other organ or ephemera that can happen or be imagined. I hate them.

  701. I don’t know, nous. Most of the people arguing at Crookedtimber are academics and it seems to get pretty personal. I know that even in the hard sciences people become very attached to their pet theories. I get entertained reading people argue about the Chixculub impact vs Deccan volcano theory regarding the Cretaceous extinction. ( as someone from the outside who likes big explosions, I root for the space rock,). Someone even wrote a piece in the Atlantic about it a year ago and turned it into a morality play about women in science because one of the leading volcano defenders is a woman. . Maybe, but it is also about rocks and geochronology and physics and paleontology. Science as a whole eventually progresses, but individual scientists can be really really stubborn.
    From my outsider’s perspective, the social sciences are worse, especially economics. This is me speaking as an outsider, but it makes sense. People are arguing about politics, ideology, actual moral issues and it all gets mixed up with their egos too. If people get a bit silly about what killed the dinosaurs, how are they going to act regarding theories about social justice?
    Anyway, both sides make good points on the race and class arguments.

  702. I don’t know, nous. Most of the people arguing at Crookedtimber are academics and it seems to get pretty personal. I know that even in the hard sciences people become very attached to their pet theories. I get entertained reading people argue about the Chixculub impact vs Deccan volcano theory regarding the Cretaceous extinction. ( as someone from the outside who likes big explosions, I root for the space rock,). Someone even wrote a piece in the Atlantic about it a year ago and turned it into a morality play about women in science because one of the leading volcano defenders is a woman. . Maybe, but it is also about rocks and geochronology and physics and paleontology. Science as a whole eventually progresses, but individual scientists can be really really stubborn.
    From my outsider’s perspective, the social sciences are worse, especially economics. This is me speaking as an outsider, but it makes sense. People are arguing about politics, ideology, actual moral issues and it all gets mixed up with their egos too. If people get a bit silly about what killed the dinosaurs, how are they going to act regarding theories about social justice?
    Anyway, both sides make good points on the race and class arguments.

  707. No doubt the arguments get personal. No doubt there are egos involved.
    It isn’t that that got me to comment. It was wj’s comment that the small differences being argued over were meaningless and saying that those arguments may be getting in the way of meaningful action. The differences seem small, but the effects of those differences are large. And with social justice issues those small differences get magnified and end up having huge policy implications for people.

  708. No doubt the arguments get personal. No doubt there are egos involved.
    It isn’t that that got me to comment. It was wj’s comment that the small differences being argued over were meaningless and saying that those arguments may be getting in the way of meaningful action. The differences seem small, but the effects of those differences are large. And with social justice issues those small differences get magnified and end up having huge policy implications for people.

  711. This is, in a sense, obvious, and something long acknowledged, but I though it nonetheless a notably clear exposition. Are we going to find it also applies to the electoral system ?
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/09/trump-organization-legal-troubles-investigations.html
    … One thing I’ve learned about Trump and about the country is that Trump has always exploited honor systems. He’s always looked for places where people obey the law not because they have to but because it’s seen as the right thing to do. They don’t want to go against social convention, and so they follow the rules—but when you break the law, it’s not like a cop steps out from behind a pillar and arrests you. He takes advantage of that. When he finds a place where there’s an honor system, he exploits it. He does what the honor system doesn’t expect. And he often gets a huge advantage out of that. He did that in his business often. He did it at his charity—he didn’t follow charity rules, and he took advantage of the fact that the charity system takes a long time to catch up with you if you do that.
    And what we’ve found is that the presidency is an honor system…

  712. This is, in a sense, obvious, and something long acknowledged, but I though it nonetheless a notably clear exposition. Are we going to find it also applies to the electoral system ?
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/09/trump-organization-legal-troubles-investigations.html
    … One thing I’ve learned about Trump and about the country is that Trump has always exploited honor systems. He’s always looked for places where people obey the law not because they have to but because it’s seen as the right thing to do. They don’t want to go against social convention, and so they follow the rules—but when you break the law, it’s not like a cop steps out from behind a pillar and arrests you. He takes advantage of that. When he finds a place where there’s an honor system, he exploits it. He does what the honor system doesn’t expect. And he often gets a huge advantage out of that. He did that in his business often. He did it at his charity—he didn’t follow charity rules, and he took advantage of the fact that the charity system takes a long time to catch up with you if you do that.
    And what we’ve found is that the presidency is an honor system…

  713. I appreciate the academic bent of Crooked Timber, but really don’t like the conflict and oneupsmanship in the comments. Also, not a question of disliking it, but a few of the commenters organize their comments in ways that I really can’t understand or that confuse me. One thing about here is that we are probably more homogeneous and therefore are better to understand each other’s comments. I’m curious and would like to ask, but feel that it would be a lot more trouble than it is worth.

  714. I appreciate the academic bent of Crooked Timber, but really don’t like the conflict and oneupsmanship in the comments. Also, not a question of disliking it, but a few of the commenters organize their comments in ways that I really can’t understand or that confuse me. One thing about here is that we are probably more homogeneous and therefore are better to understand each other’s comments. I’m curious and would like to ask, but feel that it would be a lot more trouble than it is worth.

  715. Thanks for the link to the Sandel article, Donald.
    It’s quite astonishing how ignorant proponents of a meritocracy can be about basic human psychology.

  716. Thanks for the link to the Sandel article, Donald.
    It’s quite astonishing how ignorant proponents of a meritocracy can be about basic human psychology.

  719. When he finds a place where there’s an honor system, he exploits it.
    where ‘he’ is a metonym for his team of nihilistic lawyers, bloodthirsty accountants and amoral family.
    i’ve always seen Trump as too stupid to do something like ‘look for places where people obey the law out of social convention’. but i do think he’s the kind of guy who hires the kind of people who will look at his situation, listen to his requests and tell him ‘no, there’s no law against this, this and this, only some social conventions’. and then he grins and jumps into the gaps, happy to ignore those conventions if it means more money for himself.
    he’s a parasite, not a wizard.

  720. When he finds a place where there’s an honor system, he exploits it.
    where ‘he’ is a metonym for his team of nihilistic lawyers, bloodthirsty accountants and amoral family.
    i’ve always seen Trump as too stupid to do something like ‘look for places where people obey the law out of social convention’. but i do think he’s the kind of guy who hires the kind of people who will look at his situation, listen to his requests and tell him ‘no, there’s no law against this, this and this, only some social conventions’. and then he grins and jumps into the gaps, happy to ignore those conventions if it means more money for himself.
    he’s a parasite, not a wizard.

  723. not even being a member of the US diplomat corps is enough to get black people out of being treated differently, it seems.

    By early January, I felt like I was experiencing more questioning and more overtly hostile treatment each time I was pulled into secondary inspection. I was regularly laughed at by U.S. officials as they asked my citizenship and my job. I would present four forms of identification—my diplomatic passport, U.S. passport, ID granted by the Mexican government, and my SENTRI card—which were regularly waved away. Officers would say they didn’t believe I worked at the U.S. Consulate and refuse to even look at my documents.
    One time, an officer told me, which I wrote down: Just because you say you work at the consulate does not mean that you are not smuggling drugs into the country. I asked him to explain. He responded, I don’t know, but I do know what drug dealers and smugglers look like. He stepped forward, crossed his arms, looked at me up and down, and said: You know what I mean.
    …
    Four of my upper-level white supervisors in Juarez gave me their personal phone numbers and offered to drive with me in my car to cross the border. While this may have been a sincere gesture on their part, that’s not something I was comfortable doing. It would have felt demeaning to need a white escort. I was as American as they were. We had the same documents. We had the same diplomatic passport. What I wanted was for the system to recognize that, and to treat me the same as my white colleagues.
    …
    On March 30, I returned to Juarez to pack up my belongings and say goodbye to colleagues and upper management. As I crossed into El Paso to pick up my dog and buy supplies for my new apartment, I was flagged into secondary one last time.
    This time, though, the CBP officer in secondary inspection was kind. And our interaction was very different. When I told him that this was the first time going through that checkpoint that I hadn’t been harassed, he told me that what I was experiencing wasn’t my imagination, and encouraged me to keep moving forward. Look, he said: We both know you’re being pulled over because you’re Black. But you worked hard to be here. You can’t let anybody take that from you.

    she was subject to so much harassment by other US govt employees that she was essentially forced to leave the US diplomatic corps.

  724. not even being a member of the US diplomat corps is enough to get black people out of being treated differently, it seems.

    By early January, I felt like I was experiencing more questioning and more overtly hostile treatment each time I was pulled into secondary inspection. I was regularly laughed at by U.S. officials as they asked my citizenship and my job. I would present four forms of identification—my diplomatic passport, U.S. passport, ID granted by the Mexican government, and my SENTRI card—which were regularly waved away. Officers would say they didn’t believe I worked at the U.S. Consulate and refuse to even look at my documents.
    One time, an officer told me, which I wrote down: Just because you say you work at the consulate does not mean that you are not smuggling drugs into the country. I asked him to explain. He responded, I don’t know, but I do know what drug dealers and smugglers look like. He stepped forward, crossed his arms, looked at me up and down, and said: You know what I mean.
    …
    Four of my upper-level white supervisors in Juarez gave me their personal phone numbers and offered to drive with me in my car to cross the border. While this may have been a sincere gesture on their part, that’s not something I was comfortable doing. It would have felt demeaning to need a white escort. I was as American as they were. We had the same documents. We had the same diplomatic passport. What I wanted was for the system to recognize that, and to treat me the same as my white colleagues.
    …
    On March 30, I returned to Juarez to pack up my belongings and say goodbye to colleagues and upper management. As I crossed into El Paso to pick up my dog and buy supplies for my new apartment, I was flagged into secondary one last time.
    This time, though, the CBP officer in secondary inspection was kind. And our interaction was very different. When I told him that this was the first time going through that checkpoint that I hadn’t been harassed, he told me that what I was experiencing wasn’t my imagination, and encouraged me to keep moving forward. Look, he said: We both know you’re being pulled over because you’re Black. But you worked hard to be here. You can’t let anybody take that from you.

    she was subject to so much harassment by other US govt employees that she was essentially forced to leave the US diplomatic corps.

  725. Just putting this out there in case anybody is so moved.
    GoFundMe campaigns for Kenosha.
    Uptown, downtown, uptown *and* downtown, specific businesses and individuals. Something for every point of view.
    I’m not interested in arguing about whether anyone or anything on the page is worthy, not worthy. Whatever floats your boat.
    If any of it seems worthwhile to you, send a couple of bucks their way. Every little bit helps. If not, also cool with me.
    Do what seems good, to you, according to your inclination and means.

  726. Just putting this out there in case anybody is so moved.
    GoFundMe campaigns for Kenosha.
    Uptown, downtown, uptown *and* downtown, specific businesses and individuals. Something for every point of view.
    I’m not interested in arguing about whether anyone or anything on the page is worthy, not worthy. Whatever floats your boat.
    If any of it seems worthwhile to you, send a couple of bucks their way. Every little bit helps. If not, also cool with me.
    Do what seems good, to you, according to your inclination and means.

  727. …i’ve always seen Trump as too stupid to do something like ‘look for places where people obey the law out of social convention’….
    I don’t think it matters.
    Delving into Trump’s psyche is a futile endeavour; judge him by his actions.

  728. …i’ve always seen Trump as too stupid to do something like ‘look for places where people obey the law out of social convention’….
    I don’t think it matters.
    Delving into Trump’s psyche is a futile endeavour; judge him by his actions.

  735. his actions tell me he’s dumber than dirt.
    He always has been. His current (last few years) actions tell me he’s experiencing serious senile decay on top of that.

  736. his actions tell me he’s dumber than dirt.
    He always has been. His current (last few years) actions tell me he’s experiencing serious senile decay on top of that.

  737. His corruption seems to be pathological. It’s as though being successful by working within the rules is somehow less of a success than getting around the rules because of misplaced sense of cleverness.

  738. His corruption seems to be pathological. It’s as though being successful by working within the rules is somehow less of a success than getting around the rules because of misplaced sense of cleverness.

  739. Just because a deer tick has a very small brain, doesn’t mean that it isn’t a successful parasite.
    The application to Trump is left as an exercise for the reader.

  740. Just because a deer tick has a very small brain, doesn’t mean that it isn’t a successful parasite.
    The application to Trump is left as an exercise for the reader.

  741. By the way, because of discussion here, I checked my subscription status. My New Yorker one lapsed a few months ago, and I didn’t even notice, I used it so little. However, I do have one with the Atlantic, which I took out in view of the number of consequential pieces they were running, by Applebaum among others. I am particularly glad of it now; the current stuff about Trump’s attitude to the military seems to stand a chance of really having an impact.

  742. By the way, because of discussion here, I checked my subscription status. My New Yorker one lapsed a few months ago, and I didn’t even notice, I used it so little. However, I do have one with the Atlantic, which I took out in view of the number of consequential pieces they were running, by Applebaum among others. I am particularly glad of it now; the current stuff about Trump’s attitude to the military seems to stand a chance of really having an impact.

  743. Quite, Snarki.
    Trump is very simple, and very dangerous – and has the resources of the state, and plenty of people smarter than he is, to back up his whims.

  744. Quite, Snarki.
    Trump is very simple, and very dangerous – and has the resources of the state, and plenty of people smarter than he is, to back up his whims.

  747. In the small hours of the morning (I think that’s a fair characterization of 12:29 AM), JDT wrote:
    More on subhuman republican conservative dog shit
    and referenced this Atlantic article:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/09/trump-americans-who-died-at-war-are-losers-and-suckers/615997/
    Of course the White House issued a categorical denial of the Atlantic story. But, with their usual ineptitude, they included specific denials of things Trump said very publicly — about Senator McCain, about Bush I, about those buried in various military cemeteries. As the Washington Post details at length:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/09/04/trumps-callous-alleged-comments-about-veterans-vs-whats-hes-said-very-publicly/
    No surprise the military and vets are up in arms:

    In 2016, Army veteran David Weissman was an “unapologetic, red-hat wearing” Donald Trump supporter. The Palm Bay, Fla., resident would regularly join social media mobs attacking liberals, he later wrote, seeking to defend a candidate who he said rightfully prioritized the armed forces.
    Four years later, Weissman — who served two tours in Afghanistan — has now sparked a Twitter campaign of former service members against President Trump, over reports that he derided fallen U.S. soldiers as “losers” and “suckers.”
    “I recommend all veterans to use their Military pics as a profile pic,” Weissman wrote on Twitter on Thursday evening, “to let Trump know how many people he has offended.”

  748. In the small hours of the morning (I think that’s a fair characterization of 12:29 AM), JDT wrote:
    More on subhuman republican conservative dog shit
    and referenced this Atlantic article:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/09/trump-americans-who-died-at-war-are-losers-and-suckers/615997/
    Of course the White House issued a categorical denial of the Atlantic story. But, with their usual ineptitude, they included specific denials of things Trump said very publicly — about Senator McCain, about Bush I, about those buried in various military cemeteries. As the Washington Post details at length:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/09/04/trumps-callous-alleged-comments-about-veterans-vs-whats-hes-said-very-publicly/
    No surprise the military and vets are up in arms:

    In 2016, Army veteran David Weissman was an “unapologetic, red-hat wearing” Donald Trump supporter. The Palm Bay, Fla., resident would regularly join social media mobs attacking liberals, he later wrote, seeking to defend a candidate who he said rightfully prioritized the armed forces.
    Four years later, Weissman — who served two tours in Afghanistan — has now sparked a Twitter campaign of former service members against President Trump, over reports that he derided fallen U.S. soldiers as “losers” and “suckers.”
    “I recommend all veterans to use their Military pics as a profile pic,” Weissman wrote on Twitter on Thursday evening, “to let Trump know how many people he has offended.”

  749. The concluding paragraph from the 538 piece Nigel linked:

    Given the way things are changing, the people who study the militia movement and have spent years talking to its members think there’s a risk of American militias becoming more like the militias of other, often politically unstable, countries. “What matters is if the movement becomes essentially a more traditional Latin American pro-regime paramilitary, which seems to be what Trump is trying to create or wants,” Churchill said.

    That’s comforting.

  750. The concluding paragraph from the 538 piece Nigel linked:

    Given the way things are changing, the people who study the militia movement and have spent years talking to its members think there’s a risk of American militias becoming more like the militias of other, often politically unstable, countries. “What matters is if the movement becomes essentially a more traditional Latin American pro-regime paramilitary, which seems to be what Trump is trying to create or wants,” Churchill said.

    That’s comforting.

  751. My current arrangement (Firefox with uBlock Origin and Bypass Paywalls) passes most of the WaPo’s content. An occasional opinion piece is blocked.
    I maintain my previous opinion: if the paywall requires that I store data on my computer for them, and run programs that they won’t allow me to vet, then I decline. If your content is good enough, put up a real paywall, like the Wall Street Journal.

  752. My current arrangement (Firefox with uBlock Origin and Bypass Paywalls) passes most of the WaPo’s content. An occasional opinion piece is blocked.
    I maintain my previous opinion: if the paywall requires that I store data on my computer for them, and run programs that they won’t allow me to vet, then I decline. If your content is good enough, put up a real paywall, like the Wall Street Journal.

  753. Further to what cuts through, and what doesn’t, this was interesting:
    https://twitter.com/CharlotteAlter/status/1301710651690299392
    The problem with us here on ObWi is, we are all, in our different ways, obsessives. So we see, and find significant, stuff that most people a) don’t see and b) don’t care about. Significant quote:

    Also: the most pervasive bias in political coverage is not left vs. right it’s “follows politics” vs. “doesn’t follow politics”
    By default, nearly everyone who covers politics falls into the “follows politics” category, which makes it really hard to understand people who don’t

    Replying to how to deal with this, I could say, quoting Larkin in my normal annoying way:
    Ah, solving that question
    Brings the priest and the doctor
    In their long coats
    Running over the fields.
    But actually, I don’t know how to deal with it except partly, as she says, listening (not only to what people say, but also what they don’t say). Which circles back, of course, to listening to people we don’t necessarily agree with, or who don’t interpret the data in the same way we do, but whom we don’t believe are bad people.

  754. Further to what cuts through, and what doesn’t, this was interesting:
    https://twitter.com/CharlotteAlter/status/1301710651690299392
    The problem with us here on ObWi is, we are all, in our different ways, obsessives. So we see, and find significant, stuff that most people a) don’t see and b) don’t care about. Significant quote:

    Also: the most pervasive bias in political coverage is not left vs. right it’s “follows politics” vs. “doesn’t follow politics”
    By default, nearly everyone who covers politics falls into the “follows politics” category, which makes it really hard to understand people who don’t

    Replying to how to deal with this, I could say, quoting Larkin in my normal annoying way:
    Ah, solving that question
    Brings the priest and the doctor
    In their long coats
    Running over the fields.
    But actually, I don’t know how to deal with it except partly, as she says, listening (not only to what people say, but also what they don’t say). Which circles back, of course, to listening to people we don’t necessarily agree with, or who don’t interpret the data in the same way we do, but whom we don’t believe are bad people.

  755. It’s as though being successful by working within the rules is somehow less of a success than getting around the rules because of misplaced sense of cleverness.
    yep.
    like he wants to prove that he’s better than suckers and losers who play by the rules.
    it’s hard to remember, but there was a time when Trump didn’t completely dominate the news. i can’t wait to return to that pre- summer 2016 mindset.

  756. It’s as though being successful by working within the rules is somehow less of a success than getting around the rules because of misplaced sense of cleverness.
    yep.
    like he wants to prove that he’s better than suckers and losers who play by the rules.
    it’s hard to remember, but there was a time when Trump didn’t completely dominate the news. i can’t wait to return to that pre- summer 2016 mindset.

  757. Dammit, I posted a comment, forgot that because it included a link it should have been by GftNC, and it’s now lost in the spam trap and too long ago for me to properly recreate. If anyone who has access could read it, they can decide if it is worth rescuing or not.
    wj: rescue accomplished. It’s a 1:53 PM above.

  758. Dammit, I posted a comment, forgot that because it included a link it should have been by GftNC, and it’s now lost in the spam trap and too long ago for me to properly recreate. If anyone who has access could read it, they can decide if it is worth rescuing or not.
    wj: rescue accomplished. It’s a 1:53 PM above.

  759. The administration has just officially* ordered to dissolve “Stars and Stripes” , the US military’s newspaper (published since 1861). This month’s edition is to be the last and all used government property worldwide is to be cleared by Sept 30th. This despite Congress explicitly approving it’s budget (and senators from both parties protesting and threatening legal actions).
    *the idea got discussed since at least the beginning of this year.

  760. The administration has just officially* ordered to dissolve “Stars and Stripes” , the US military’s newspaper (published since 1861). This month’s edition is to be the last and all used government property worldwide is to be cleared by Sept 30th. This despite Congress explicitly approving it’s budget (and senators from both parties protesting and threatening legal actions).
    *the idea got discussed since at least the beginning of this year.

  761. Immediate, knee-jerk, guess as to why Trump wants to get rid of Stars and Stripes: it failed to be adequately sycophantic. Which makes it an enemy.

  762. Immediate, knee-jerk, guess as to why Trump wants to get rid of Stars and Stripes: it failed to be adequately sycophantic. Which makes it an enemy.

  765. And it is formally independent. Maybe a new one directly controlled by the WH will get f(o)unded in its place. Which will be mandatory reading for all personnel.

  766. And it is formally independent. Maybe a new one directly controlled by the WH will get f(o)unded in its place. Which will be mandatory reading for all personnel.

  771. … and Trump just unannounced it, by Tweet.
    I think he’s running scared.
    Far more than some on the left, I think he has a good idea just how thin his chances are in November. And thus how little he can afford to alienate any part of his 2016 constituency. Specifically including the troops.
    I expect ever more hysterical reaction to the Atlantic story over the next couple of days. Both aimed at Goldberg personally (because that’s how Trump rolls) and at the Atlantic and every other publication which is publishing stories independently supporting it.

  772. … and Trump just unannounced it, by Tweet.
    I think he’s running scared.
    Far more than some on the left, I think he has a good idea just how thin his chances are in November. And thus how little he can afford to alienate any part of his 2016 constituency. Specifically including the troops.
    I expect ever more hysterical reaction to the Atlantic story over the next couple of days. Both aimed at Goldberg personally (because that’s how Trump rolls) and at the Atlantic and every other publication which is publishing stories independently supporting it.

  775. Far more than some on the left, I think he has a good idea just how thin his chances are in November.
    Well of course, he has the narcissist’s inner emptiness and sense of nullity, which is what fuels his fear of being a loser. As one of the articles on narcissism says:

    While narcissists appear full of themselves, the source of their grandiosity lies in an internal world filled with psychological pain. The narcissist feels grandiose in order to not feel small and worthless. An exaggerated view of one’s specialness is perfectly suited to defend against and deny other feelings of being basically invisible, weak and humiliated. Thus, even when surrounded by admirers, the narcissist is lonely and has to discard people who no longer serve this reinforcing function.

    While this perfectly describes Trump, I do think that in 2016 he was prepared to lose because he had constructed a narrative in which he couldn’t win only because he wasn’t a politician, but was still putting up an impressive show against the out-and-out favourite. This time it’s different: he’s been President, so losing would be a proper defeat and therefore intolerable. His psychological state must be terrible, and gaming out how he would respond to various levels of defeat is clearly very important to anticipate in order to have appropriate defences ready.
    But alas, and as we must keep reminding ourselves, he could easily win.

  776. Far more than some on the left, I think he has a good idea just how thin his chances are in November.
    Well of course, he has the narcissist’s inner emptiness and sense of nullity, which is what fuels his fear of being a loser. As one of the articles on narcissism says:

    While narcissists appear full of themselves, the source of their grandiosity lies in an internal world filled with psychological pain. The narcissist feels grandiose in order to not feel small and worthless. An exaggerated view of one’s specialness is perfectly suited to defend against and deny other feelings of being basically invisible, weak and humiliated. Thus, even when surrounded by admirers, the narcissist is lonely and has to discard people who no longer serve this reinforcing function.

    While this perfectly describes Trump, I do think that in 2016 he was prepared to lose because he had constructed a narrative in which he couldn’t win only because he wasn’t a politician, but was still putting up an impressive show against the out-and-out favourite. This time it’s different: he’s been President, so losing would be a proper defeat and therefore intolerable. His psychological state must be terrible, and gaming out how he would respond to various levels of defeat is clearly very important to anticipate in order to have appropriate defences ready.
    But alas, and as we must keep reminding ourselves, he could easily win.

  779. Esper was saying in February that the money there ($7m) needed to be reinvested in more mission critical military items…
    $7m is likely the monthly budget for printer toner at the Pentagon.

  780. Esper was saying in February that the money there ($7m) needed to be reinvested in more mission critical military items…
    $7m is likely the monthly budget for printer toner at the Pentagon.

  783. And the Lincoln Project is already churning out commercials on Trump’s “Losers” comment. Many, no doubt, destined for Trump’s favorite shows on Fox. Looking at meltdown after meltdown, all weekend long.

  784. And the Lincoln Project is already churning out commercials on Trump’s “Losers” comment. Many, no doubt, destined for Trump’s favorite shows on Fox. Looking at meltdown after meltdown, all weekend long.

  785. Balloon Juice has a very moving story about “The Four Chaplains” on a troop transport struck by a torpedo near Greenland during WWII.
    Losers and suckers, according to Trump.
    I’m sure there are MANY more such stories out there. Of course, they must have gotten themselves killed back in the 1940’s *just* to make Trump look bad today, amirite?

  786. Balloon Juice has a very moving story about “The Four Chaplains” on a troop transport struck by a torpedo near Greenland during WWII.
    Losers and suckers, according to Trump.
    I’m sure there are MANY more such stories out there. Of course, they must have gotten themselves killed back in the 1940’s *just* to make Trump look bad today, amirite?

  789. But then the proud Trump supporter allows, to everyone’s surprise, that she cannot abide the incumbent president and his crew any longer.
    What’s the wise response?
    Possibilities:
    “OK. Who’s deal is it?”
    “That’s fine. We all change our minds about things.”
    “Donald who?”
    I don’t see any upside in giving people a hard time about their *prior* support for Trump.
    Civilian people, anyway. People who’ve made a living off it for the last four years, different story. People in positions of public responsibility who have enabled him in crimes and malfeasance, different story.
    But folks who voted for Trump in ’16 and decided not to in ’20?
    No worries.

  790. But then the proud Trump supporter allows, to everyone’s surprise, that she cannot abide the incumbent president and his crew any longer.
    What’s the wise response?
    Possibilities:
    “OK. Who’s deal is it?”
    “That’s fine. We all change our minds about things.”
    “Donald who?”
    I don’t see any upside in giving people a hard time about their *prior* support for Trump.
    Civilian people, anyway. People who’ve made a living off it for the last four years, different story. People in positions of public responsibility who have enabled him in crimes and malfeasance, different story.
    But folks who voted for Trump in ’16 and decided not to in ’20?
    No worries.

  791. What’s the wise response?
    ‘That’s great to hear, I won’t complain. But I hope it will make you consider points made by liberals a little more closely in the future’ or something like that. Let them know that it isn’t a simple flipping of a switch, it is a a world view that is problematic.

  792. What’s the wise response?
    ‘That’s great to hear, I won’t complain. But I hope it will make you consider points made by liberals a little more closely in the future’ or something like that. Let them know that it isn’t a simple flipping of a switch, it is a a world view that is problematic.

  793. TBH, I’m not sure I want to know the thought process.
    I’m happy to know about the vote and the change of heart. Too many details might spoil the mood.
    🙂

  794. TBH, I’m not sure I want to know the thought process.
    I’m happy to know about the vote and the change of heart. Too many details might spoil the mood.
    🙂

  795. The “proud Trump supporter” who “allows, to everyone’s surprise” that she has renounced Satan and all His works may or may not be common enough to matter, electorally speaking. I fear she is a rare phenomenon, myself.
    Taking the story at face value nevertheless, I’d be inclined to ask for further and better particulars: “What made you feel that way?” Not, mind you, the more (but barely) provocative “What changed your mind?”
    Whatever her answer, my response would be a non-committal “Huh” or “I see”. My point would be simply to let her say out loud what made her change her mind. My hope would be that doing so would reinforce her confidence in her judgement. If it prompted her to go on and add more condemnation, so much the better.
    This fantasy is based on the old academic chestnut: “How do I know what I think until I hear what I have to say?” There’s some truth in that. Until I wrote this comment, my instinct would have been to say, in effect, “I told you so Jane, you ignorant slut”, which I admit might be counterproductive.
    –TP

  796. The “proud Trump supporter” who “allows, to everyone’s surprise” that she has renounced Satan and all His works may or may not be common enough to matter, electorally speaking. I fear she is a rare phenomenon, myself.
    Taking the story at face value nevertheless, I’d be inclined to ask for further and better particulars: “What made you feel that way?” Not, mind you, the more (but barely) provocative “What changed your mind?”
    Whatever her answer, my response would be a non-committal “Huh” or “I see”. My point would be simply to let her say out loud what made her change her mind. My hope would be that doing so would reinforce her confidence in her judgement. If it prompted her to go on and add more condemnation, so much the better.
    This fantasy is based on the old academic chestnut: “How do I know what I think until I hear what I have to say?” There’s some truth in that. Until I wrote this comment, my instinct would have been to say, in effect, “I told you so Jane, you ignorant slut”, which I admit might be counterproductive.
    –TP

  799. [She] may or may not be common enough to matter, electorally speaking. I fear she is a rare phenomenon, myself
    But, things being how they are, even a rare phenomenon may tip the scales occasionally. So best not to turn away a potential ally. Even a temporaty (and maybe grudging) one can be important.

  800. [She] may or may not be common enough to matter, electorally speaking. I fear she is a rare phenomenon, myself
    But, things being how they are, even a rare phenomenon may tip the scales occasionally. So best not to turn away a potential ally. Even a temporaty (and maybe grudging) one can be important.

  803. I assume that he will win the popular vote, likely by a higher margin even than Hillary Clinton. The Electoral College is another matter completely. Plus all the red-state shenanigans, the sabotage of the USPS and the essentially pre-announced country-wide deployment of thugs at DEM leaning polling places followed by Brooks Brothers Riots this time on a national scale. If there is a Bush v. Gore 2.0, then Congress should better preemptively remove all lampposts and flagpoles from DC.

  804. I assume that he will win the popular vote, likely by a higher margin even than Hillary Clinton. The Electoral College is another matter completely. Plus all the red-state shenanigans, the sabotage of the USPS and the essentially pre-announced country-wide deployment of thugs at DEM leaning polling places followed by Brooks Brothers Riots this time on a national scale. If there is a Bush v. Gore 2.0, then Congress should better preemptively remove all lampposts and flagpoles from DC.

  807. everyone is assuming a Biden win.
    Everyone? I’m having trouble getting out of bed because of the dread. And even with a win, there’s been enough ratfuckery to have a big enough minority not accept it, making all efforts are fixing things afterwards (assuming Biden gets in office) total chaos.

  808. everyone is assuming a Biden win.
    Everyone? I’m having trouble getting out of bed because of the dread. And even with a win, there’s been enough ratfuckery to have a big enough minority not accept it, making all efforts are fixing things afterwards (assuming Biden gets in office) total chaos.

  809. i’m worried about the fact that everyone is assuming a Biden win.
    Not me. Like lj, I am filled with dread (occasionally leavened with a tiny bit of hope). Plus, everything else lj said @10.46

  810. i’m worried about the fact that everyone is assuming a Biden win.
    Not me. Like lj, I am filled with dread (occasionally leavened with a tiny bit of hope). Plus, everything else lj said @10.46

  811. i’m worried about the fact that everyone is assuming a Biden win.
    From what I’m seeing, everyone is assuming a Biden win of the popular vote. But as Hartmut notes, the Electoral College is a different story. And there seems to be a lot of effort going into making 2020 not be a repeat of 2016. Personally, I expect (as opposed to assume) that Trump will lose both by a significant margin. If he manages to upset a couple more constituencies the way he did the troops the last two days, it won’t even be close.
    There is also a lot of concern about what happens if Trump is leading on Election Night, but ends up losing as the mail-in ballots are counted. Which seems entirely possible. I’m less worried than most here, because I think the deciding state on this will end up being Florida . . . whose mail-in ballot regime Trump has already blessed.

  812. i’m worried about the fact that everyone is assuming a Biden win.
    From what I’m seeing, everyone is assuming a Biden win of the popular vote. But as Hartmut notes, the Electoral College is a different story. And there seems to be a lot of effort going into making 2020 not be a repeat of 2016. Personally, I expect (as opposed to assume) that Trump will lose both by a significant margin. If he manages to upset a couple more constituencies the way he did the troops the last two days, it won’t even be close.
    There is also a lot of concern about what happens if Trump is leading on Election Night, but ends up losing as the mail-in ballots are counted. Which seems entirely possible. I’m less worried than most here, because I think the deciding state on this will end up being Florida . . . whose mail-in ballot regime Trump has already blessed.

  813. I’m less worried than most here, because I think the deciding state on this will end up being Florida… whose mail-in ballot regime Trump has already blessed.
    In 2018 Florida was 31% mail ballots. With the pandemic, no-excuse mail ballots, and online mail ballot requests, I expect it will be significantly higher this year. It’s entirely possible that the election supervisors will be overwhelmed if there’s a late surge in requests — the statutory two-day turnaround will likely be violated in some places. Florida has drop-off boxes in addition to mail return.
    If it’s close they’ll be counting for at least a few days before it gets called. I expect we’ll all be sitting around waiting for FL and AZ to finish, and that neither Biden nor Trump will have 270 until one or both of those are settled.

  814. I’m less worried than most here, because I think the deciding state on this will end up being Florida… whose mail-in ballot regime Trump has already blessed.
    In 2018 Florida was 31% mail ballots. With the pandemic, no-excuse mail ballots, and online mail ballot requests, I expect it will be significantly higher this year. It’s entirely possible that the election supervisors will be overwhelmed if there’s a late surge in requests — the statutory two-day turnaround will likely be violated in some places. Florida has drop-off boxes in addition to mail return.
    If it’s close they’ll be counting for at least a few days before it gets called. I expect we’ll all be sitting around waiting for FL and AZ to finish, and that neither Biden nor Trump will have 270 until one or both of those are settled.

  815. I should add that AZ’s system, with about 80% mail ballots, must automatically be blessed because it was installed over decades by the state’s Republicans.

  816. I should add that AZ’s system, with about 80% mail ballots, must automatically be blessed because it was installed over decades by the state’s Republicans.

  817. Exactly what russell has been warning about for a long time: the use of even the threat of gun violence to silence the rest of us.
    And it’s not just faceless yahoos:

    State Rep. Beth O’Connor, a Republican from Berwick, added fuel to the fire, posting “Constitutional Carry. Maine Militia can ensure peace.

    So, a paramilitary presence not accountable to government, basically in vocal flow about government’s failings, and loyal only to the sociopath in the White House.
    The 2nd amendment trumps the 1st. In more ways than one.

  818. Exactly what russell has been warning about for a long time: the use of even the threat of gun violence to silence the rest of us.
    And it’s not just faceless yahoos:

    State Rep. Beth O’Connor, a Republican from Berwick, added fuel to the fire, posting “Constitutional Carry. Maine Militia can ensure peace.

    So, a paramilitary presence not accountable to government, basically in vocal flow about government’s failings, and loyal only to the sociopath in the White House.
    The 2nd amendment trumps the 1st. In more ways than one.

  819. Jabbabonk will withdraw his blessings at a moment’s notice denying that he ever blessed in the first place. Also it will be presented as a proof that ‘even Florida’ got overwhelmed by Dem demonry (thus proving that the results in the unblessed stated are even more suspicious…I mean absolutely and obviously fraudulent).

  820. Jabbabonk will withdraw his blessings at a moment’s notice denying that he ever blessed in the first place. Also it will be presented as a proof that ‘even Florida’ got overwhelmed by Dem demonry (thus proving that the results in the unblessed stated are even more suspicious…I mean absolutely and obviously fraudulent).

  821. i’m worried about the fact that everyone is assuming a Biden win.
    Things seem to be going in his direction, for now.
    But given he probably needs to be somewhere between 2 and 3% ahead in the popular vote just to be level pegging in electoral college terms, every vote matters.

  822. i’m worried about the fact that everyone is assuming a Biden win.
    Things seem to be going in his direction, for now.
    But given he probably needs to be somewhere between 2 and 3% ahead in the popular vote just to be level pegging in electoral college terms, every vote matters.

  823. IIRC, the 2018 Arizona US Senate race wasn’t called for Sinema by the news agencies until a week after Election Day. No one in Arizona screamed “Fraud!” No one was surprised — irritated, yes — that it took Arizona that long to reach a point where the close election could be called.
    My personal impression has always been that Trump isn’t interested in, and has no interest in learning about, the part of the country west of the 100th meridian. Other than just reflexively jabbing at California now and then.
    I wonder about Biden on that count a little. The other day he was sitting with Harris and going on about making Election Day a national holiday. I wondered if Harris was biting her tongue a bit. She’s from a region that was >70% mail ballots in 2018, will be >90% mail ballots this year, and from a state that will be >95% mail ballots this year. I suspect that for 25% of the country, the response would be, “Another paid day off? How nice! Be sure to send the mail ballots back early so we don’t have to waste any the day standing in line.”

  824. IIRC, the 2018 Arizona US Senate race wasn’t called for Sinema by the news agencies until a week after Election Day. No one in Arizona screamed “Fraud!” No one was surprised — irritated, yes — that it took Arizona that long to reach a point where the close election could be called.
    My personal impression has always been that Trump isn’t interested in, and has no interest in learning about, the part of the country west of the 100th meridian. Other than just reflexively jabbing at California now and then.
    I wonder about Biden on that count a little. The other day he was sitting with Harris and going on about making Election Day a national holiday. I wondered if Harris was biting her tongue a bit. She’s from a region that was >70% mail ballots in 2018, will be >90% mail ballots this year, and from a state that will be >95% mail ballots this year. I suspect that for 25% of the country, the response would be, “Another paid day off? How nice! Be sure to send the mail ballots back early so we don’t have to waste any the day standing in line.”

  825. My personal impression has always been that Trump isn’t interested in, and has no interest in learning about, the part of the country west of the 100th meridian/
    I’d say west of the 80 meridian is probably closer. If it wasn’t for Florida, I would make it “west of the Hudson.” And we shouldn’t leave out no interest in anything east of the 70 meridian, too. “Parochial” could be his middle name.

  826. My personal impression has always been that Trump isn’t interested in, and has no interest in learning about, the part of the country west of the 100th meridian/
    I’d say west of the 80 meridian is probably closer. If it wasn’t for Florida, I would make it “west of the Hudson.” And we shouldn’t leave out no interest in anything east of the 70 meridian, too. “Parochial” could be his middle name.

  827. And we shouldn’t leave out no interest in anything east of the 70 meridian, too.
    I lost interest and quit counting, but there was one point sometime in the first year when he had made several more trips to Europe and the Middle East than he had across the Mississippi River.

  828. And we shouldn’t leave out no interest in anything east of the 70 meridian, too.
    I lost interest and quit counting, but there was one point sometime in the first year when he had made several more trips to Europe and the Middle East than he had across the Mississippi River.

  829. My personal impression has always been that Trump isn’t interested in, and has no interest in learning about, the part of the country west of the 100th meridian.
    His interests lie where his money is.

  830. My personal impression has always been that Trump isn’t interested in, and has no interest in learning about, the part of the country west of the 100th meridian.
    His interests lie where his money is.

  831. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/09/trump-biden-transition-could-be-volatile/616054/
    Rather tepid headline for they are promising to murder all of us.
    The both-sides-do-it crowd are so far above it all, floating imperiously and neutrally in the stratosphere, peering blindly down at the tiny moving moats on Earth that we all look the same, the murderers and the murdered.
    Trump’s vermin believe he was sent by God to kill us.
    The both sides do it crowd believe THEY are God.

  832. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/09/trump-biden-transition-could-be-volatile/616054/
    Rather tepid headline for they are promising to murder all of us.
    The both-sides-do-it crowd are so far above it all, floating imperiously and neutrally in the stratosphere, peering blindly down at the tiny moving moats on Earth that we all look the same, the murderers and the murdered.
    Trump’s vermin believe he was sent by God to kill us.
    The both sides do it crowd believe THEY are God.

  835. I am pretty apprehensive about how it’s all gonna play out, but I will say that irascible geezers from Latrobe PA don’t scare me too much.
    I feel capable of meeting the irascible geezer threat head-on.

  836. I am pretty apprehensive about how it’s all gonna play out, but I will say that irascible geezers from Latrobe PA don’t scare me too much.
    I feel capable of meeting the irascible geezer threat head-on.

  839. cleek: “two men say they’re Jesus.
    one of them must be wrong.”
    Old, old story.
    A friend, long since deceased, was an avid caver. Not ‘spelunker’. Caver.
    He was on a caving trip in Mexico and stopped for gas. The guy at the gas station saw the bumper sticker on his truck and asked:
    “Jesus Caves..Is that you, Señor?”

  840. cleek: “two men say they’re Jesus.
    one of them must be wrong.”
    Old, old story.
    A friend, long since deceased, was an avid caver. Not ‘spelunker’. Caver.
    He was on a caving trip in Mexico and stopped for gas. The guy at the gas station saw the bumper sticker on his truck and asked:
    “Jesus Caves..Is that you, Señor?”

  843. The Colorado Republicans — the sane ones, at least — know that their party platform is increasingly out of touch with the critical suburban voters. Control of the party seems to be in the hands of the insane: in the CO-3 Republican primary earlier this year, the Tea Party incumbent was beaten by a QAnon newcomer.
    Redistricting in Colorado this cycle is going to be interesting. Both the US House and the state legislative districts will be done by commission this time. There will likely be an eighth US House seat. A sizeable majority of the million-person growth since the last cycle has been in the northern Front Range suburbs. Overall, the newcomers skew heavily Democratic.

  844. The Colorado Republicans — the sane ones, at least — know that their party platform is increasingly out of touch with the critical suburban voters. Control of the party seems to be in the hands of the insane: in the CO-3 Republican primary earlier this year, the Tea Party incumbent was beaten by a QAnon newcomer.
    Redistricting in Colorado this cycle is going to be interesting. Both the US House and the state legislative districts will be done by commission this time. There will likely be an eighth US House seat. A sizeable majority of the million-person growth since the last cycle has been in the northern Front Range suburbs. Overall, the newcomers skew heavily Democratic.

  851. Watching a PBS special on Ken Burns tonight. He apparently has projects lined up for years to come. But it occurs to me to wonder: what would we see in a Ken Burns’ film “The Trump Years”? Or would he, perhaps, take a wider perspective? Maybe something like “Down in Flames – the GOP From Gingrich to Trump”**
    ** I originally thought “Down the Drain…”, but decided it was less than ideal in capturing the real sense of what we have seen.

  852. Watching a PBS special on Ken Burns tonight. He apparently has projects lined up for years to come. But it occurs to me to wonder: what would we see in a Ken Burns’ film “The Trump Years”? Or would he, perhaps, take a wider perspective? Maybe something like “Down in Flames – the GOP From Gingrich to Trump”**
    ** I originally thought “Down the Drain…”, but decided it was less than ideal in capturing the real sense of what we have seen.

  853. But it occurs to me to wonder: what would we see in a Ken Burns’ film “The Trump Years”?
    The role of Putin is yet untold. I notice that Peter Strzok has a book out. Maybe it’s something interesting to read. Has anyone watched “The Americans”? Peter Strzok’s history was with that group of people. No wonder he’s Trump’s bugaboo.

  854. But it occurs to me to wonder: what would we see in a Ken Burns’ film “The Trump Years”?
    The role of Putin is yet untold. I notice that Peter Strzok has a book out. Maybe it’s something interesting to read. Has anyone watched “The Americans”? Peter Strzok’s history was with that group of people. No wonder he’s Trump’s bugaboo.

  855. I suspect Burns will have to do his Trump documentary from foreign exile.
    Or would Trump allow Burns to work on the documentary in the concentration camp?

  856. I suspect Burns will have to do his Trump documentary from foreign exile.
    Or would Trump allow Burns to work on the documentary in the concentration camp?

  861. unsurprising news…

    Louis DeJoy’s prolific campaign fundraising, which helped position him as a top Republican power broker in North Carolina and ultimately as head of the U.S. Postal Service, was bolstered for more than a decade by a practice that left many employees feeling pressured to make political contributions to GOP candidates — money DeJoy later reimbursed through bonuses, former employees say.
    Five people who worked for DeJoy’s former business, New Breed Logistics, say they were urged by DeJoy’s aides or by the chief executive himself to write checks and attend fundraisers at his 15,000-square-foot gated mansion beside a Greensboro, N.C., country club. There, events for Republicans running for the White House and Congress routinely fetched $100,000 or more apiece.
    Two other employees familiar with New Breed’s financial and payroll systems said DeJoy would instruct that bonus payments to staffers be boosted to help defray the cost of their contributions, an arrangement that would be unlawful.

  862. unsurprising news…

    Louis DeJoy’s prolific campaign fundraising, which helped position him as a top Republican power broker in North Carolina and ultimately as head of the U.S. Postal Service, was bolstered for more than a decade by a practice that left many employees feeling pressured to make political contributions to GOP candidates — money DeJoy later reimbursed through bonuses, former employees say.
    Five people who worked for DeJoy’s former business, New Breed Logistics, say they were urged by DeJoy’s aides or by the chief executive himself to write checks and attend fundraisers at his 15,000-square-foot gated mansion beside a Greensboro, N.C., country club. There, events for Republicans running for the White House and Congress routinely fetched $100,000 or more apiece.
    Two other employees familiar with New Breed’s financial and payroll systems said DeJoy would instruct that bonus payments to staffers be boosted to help defray the cost of their contributions, an arrangement that would be unlawful.

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