by liberal japonicus
Someone asked earlier in passing whether anyone else noticed how much politico had upped their game. This look back at the 2016 Republican convention tells me they have. Discuss.
532 thoughts on “The way they were”
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The Politico article notes that, in 2016,
But I’m betting that the usual Trump incompetence will make this next week look a badly made, low budget film compared to the Democrats. Technical glitches galore. Lots of paste trying to pretend to be diamonds.
And if they somehow miraculously manage to avoid all that, there will still be Trump being Trump.
The Politico article notes that, in 2016,
But I’m betting that the usual Trump incompetence will make this next week look a badly made, low budget film compared to the Democrats. Technical glitches galore. Lots of paste trying to pretend to be diamonds.
And if they somehow miraculously manage to avoid all that, there will still be Trump being Trump.
So, NASA is reporting that an asteroid is heading toward Earth, arriving the day before the election: CNN.
Anyone regretting those “Giant Meteor 2020” bumper stickers now?1??
Of course, it’s only ~2m in diameter, so hardly ‘giant’. And the probability of impact is < 0.5%. If it squishes Trump, I'd say "Thanks, Thor!"
So, NASA is reporting that an asteroid is heading toward Earth, arriving the day before the election: CNN.
Anyone regretting those “Giant Meteor 2020” bumper stickers now?1??
Of course, it’s only ~2m in diameter, so hardly ‘giant’. And the probability of impact is < 0.5%. If it squishes Trump, I'd say "Thanks, Thor!"
I’m voting for the asteroid.
Can’t we split it so it only vaporizes the worldwide conservative movement in all of its subhuman guises, and the other other half goes off to live as a RINO is deep state space?
I’m voting for the asteroid.
Can’t we split it so it only vaporizes the worldwide conservative movement in all of its subhuman guises, and the other other half goes off to live as a RINO is deep state space?
I don’t know that it’s genre appropriate for a child of Loki to thank Thor.
I don’t know that it’s genre appropriate for a child of Loki to thank Thor.
Easier to imagine than a child of Thor being willing to thank Loki.
Easier to imagine than a child of Thor being willing to thank Loki.
They even managed to print the first honest political statement from Frank Luntz for what must be several decades…
“What do Republicans believe? What does it mean to be a Republican?”
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/08/24/republicanmeltdown-trump-convention-400039
…When I pressed, Luntz sounded as exasperated as the student whose question I was relaying. “Look, I’m the one guy who’s going to give you a straight answer. I don’t give a shit—I had a stroke in January, so there’s nothing anyone can do to me to make my life suck,” he said. “I’ve tried to give you an answer and I can’t do it. You can ask it any different way. But I don’t know the answer. For the first time in my life, I don’t know the answer.”…
They even managed to print the first honest political statement from Frank Luntz for what must be several decades…
“What do Republicans believe? What does it mean to be a Republican?”
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/08/24/republicanmeltdown-trump-convention-400039
…When I pressed, Luntz sounded as exasperated as the student whose question I was relaying. “Look, I’m the one guy who’s going to give you a straight answer. I don’t give a shit—I had a stroke in January, so there’s nothing anyone can do to me to make my life suck,” he said. “I’ve tried to give you an answer and I can’t do it. You can ask it any different way. But I don’t know the answer. For the first time in my life, I don’t know the answer.”…
“What do Republicans believe? What does it mean to be a Republican?”
At the moment, for most of the party (me, obviously, not included), it appears to come down to two pillars:
1) Whatever ridiculous thing Trump has said most recently. No matter how daft. No matter if it contradicts what he said an hour before.
2) Whatever the opposite is to whatever the Democrats have said. Even if it is identical with what you were proclaiming just moments ago. That is, if ever they agree, that must be eliminated instantly. (Although, in extreme cases, it can be sufficient to claim that the Democrats are lying about what they believe.)
One interesting question is what happens when Trump is gone. Will some new demagogue arise to fill his shoes? (Naturally several grifters will try. The question is whether one succeeds.) Or will the GOP just drop to pillar 2? Or, sadly the least likely, at least in the short term, will the GOP recover its soul and believe in something again?
“What do Republicans believe? What does it mean to be a Republican?”
At the moment, for most of the party (me, obviously, not included), it appears to come down to two pillars:
1) Whatever ridiculous thing Trump has said most recently. No matter how daft. No matter if it contradicts what he said an hour before.
2) Whatever the opposite is to whatever the Democrats have said. Even if it is identical with what you were proclaiming just moments ago. That is, if ever they agree, that must be eliminated instantly. (Although, in extreme cases, it can be sufficient to claim that the Democrats are lying about what they believe.)
One interesting question is what happens when Trump is gone. Will some new demagogue arise to fill his shoes? (Naturally several grifters will try. The question is whether one succeeds.) Or will the GOP just drop to pillar 2? Or, sadly the least likely, at least in the short term, will the GOP recover its soul and believe in something again?
To those asking the obvious question (So why are you still there?) I can only say that if everyone like me leaves, the chances of option 3 go from slim to none.
To those asking the obvious question (So why are you still there?) I can only say that if everyone like me leaves, the chances of option 3 go from slim to none.
Republicans don’t believe 1 or 2. The caricature of Republicans believes nothing. Republicans believe what they always have, if the didnt they could just vote for Biden.
I think its interesting that in most of the key policy debates Republicans just believe the opposite of Democrats, and always have. Yet, that is being presented as some new stance. Guns, abortion, free speech, low taxes, less government, constitutional judges, states rights, which of these are new places Republicans and Democrats disagree?
Immigration policy is where the disagreement has grown the most, and that’s because Dems moved further left.
Republicans don’t believe 1 or 2. The caricature of Republicans believes nothing. Republicans believe what they always have, if the didnt they could just vote for Biden.
I think its interesting that in most of the key policy debates Republicans just believe the opposite of Democrats, and always have. Yet, that is being presented as some new stance. Guns, abortion, free speech, low taxes, less government, constitutional judges, states rights, which of these are new places Republicans and Democrats disagree?
Immigration policy is where the disagreement has grown the most, and that’s because Dems moved further left.
Now, the ballot drop boxes:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ballot-drop-boxes-are-safe-secure-and-have-been-used-by-republicans-and-democrats-for-decades-so-why-is-trump-bashing-them-2020-08-24?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
Kellyanne Conway’s 15-year-old demanded emancipation from her parents, so one of the mothers of conservative Evil quit.
I know how the kid feels.
I want emancipation from the entire conservative movement, not just its lying, thieving, ruthless political operatives.
Please steal my vote.
Then ……
Now, the ballot drop boxes:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ballot-drop-boxes-are-safe-secure-and-have-been-used-by-republicans-and-democrats-for-decades-so-why-is-trump-bashing-them-2020-08-24?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
Kellyanne Conway’s 15-year-old demanded emancipation from her parents, so one of the mothers of conservative Evil quit.
I know how the kid feels.
I want emancipation from the entire conservative movement, not just its lying, thieving, ruthless political operatives.
Please steal my vote.
Then ……
“Immigration policy is where the disagreement has grown the most, and that’s because Dems moved further left.”
Steaming dogshit.
“Immigration policy is where the disagreement has grown the most, and that’s because Dems moved further left.”
Steaming dogshit.
whatever Republicans believe in their black little souls, i don’t know. but both 1 and 2 are what they tell the world they believe in by the actions they take and the statements they make.
don’t like the caricature? quit living up to it.
whatever Republicans believe in their black little souls, i don’t know. but both 1 and 2 are what they tell the world they believe in by the actions they take and the statements they make.
don’t like the caricature? quit living up to it.
“Steaming dogshit.”
Yeah. It wasn’t Democrats who torpedoed immigration reform under GWB – that was Republicans moving hard right against the idea. And it wasn’t Democrats who torpedoed the agreement on DACA – that was Trump under Miller’s influence, who decided that because Democrats were willing to pass what he had already said he wanted, he would add a bunch of new conditions radically restricting legal immigration to the deal. “The Art of the Deal,” indeed.
“Steaming dogshit.”
Yeah. It wasn’t Democrats who torpedoed immigration reform under GWB – that was Republicans moving hard right against the idea. And it wasn’t Democrats who torpedoed the agreement on DACA – that was Trump under Miller’s influence, who decided that because Democrats were willing to pass what he had already said he wanted, he would add a bunch of new conditions radically restricting legal immigration to the deal. “The Art of the Deal,” indeed.
also from Nigel’s link:
also from Nigel’s link:
Republicans believe what they always have
Yet somehow they couldn’t manage to put together a platform for this convention. One would think, if no beliefs have changed, they could at least recycle a previous one.
Republicans believe what they always have
Yet somehow they couldn’t manage to put together a platform for this convention. One would think, if no beliefs have changed, they could at least recycle a previous one.
Governor Mike Dewine, far right republican, hasn’t moved an inch to the so-called Left:
Doesn’t matter in the fetid fascist ruthless sty of the conservative movement:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/dewine-ohio-impeachment-articles-covid
Kill it.
Governor Mike Dewine, far right republican, hasn’t moved an inch to the so-called Left:
Doesn’t matter in the fetid fascist ruthless sty of the conservative movement:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/dewine-ohio-impeachment-articles-covid
Kill it.
Well, they tried to recycle the previous party platform without any changes. But then they realized that it was about getting rid of the dastardly administration in power with no names attached. Reminds me of the walrus protection in the Golf of Mexico as per the copy-paste emergency documents of BP.
Well, they tried to recycle the previous party platform without any changes. But then they realized that it was about getting rid of the dastardly administration in power with no names attached. Reminds me of the walrus protection in the Golf of Mexico as per the copy-paste emergency documents of BP.
The caricature of Republicans believes nothing. Republicans believe what they always have, if the didnt they could just vote for Biden.
Perhaps the large group of voters that tend to vote Republican hasn’t changed much. But the party itself certainly has.
“Where Have All the Conservatives Gone?
As Politico points out, “the supposed canons of GOP orthodoxy—limited government, free enterprise, institutional conservation, moral rectitude, fiscal restraint, global leadership—have in recent years gone from elastic to expendable. Identifying this intellectual vacuum is easy enough. Far more difficult is answering the question of what, quite specifically, has filled it.”
The Republican Party has long been devolving into a loose collection of cultural grievances, meaningless gestures, and crime panic. But Trump seems to have accelerated the decline, sending “conservatives” in a new direction in the process.
“Trump ran in 2016 and swamped a sprawling Republican field of more conventional conservatives” and “in doing so, he didn’t merely win the nomination and embark on the road to the White House,” suggests Gerald F. Seib in a weekend Wall Street Journal essay.
The 2020 Republican Convention Doesn’t Have a Platform—It Has Trump’s Pet Peeves: Plus: Protesters could lose right to vote in Tennessee, Apple and Microsoft fight over Fortnite, and more…
The caricature of Republicans believes nothing. Republicans believe what they always have, if the didnt they could just vote for Biden.
Perhaps the large group of voters that tend to vote Republican hasn’t changed much. But the party itself certainly has.
“Where Have All the Conservatives Gone?
As Politico points out, “the supposed canons of GOP orthodoxy—limited government, free enterprise, institutional conservation, moral rectitude, fiscal restraint, global leadership—have in recent years gone from elastic to expendable. Identifying this intellectual vacuum is easy enough. Far more difficult is answering the question of what, quite specifically, has filled it.”
The Republican Party has long been devolving into a loose collection of cultural grievances, meaningless gestures, and crime panic. But Trump seems to have accelerated the decline, sending “conservatives” in a new direction in the process.
“Trump ran in 2016 and swamped a sprawling Republican field of more conventional conservatives” and “in doing so, he didn’t merely win the nomination and embark on the road to the White House,” suggests Gerald F. Seib in a weekend Wall Street Journal essay.
The 2020 Republican Convention Doesn’t Have a Platform—It Has Trump’s Pet Peeves: Plus: Protesters could lose right to vote in Tennessee, Apple and Microsoft fight over Fortnite, and more…
it’s a cult. specifically, it’s a cult dedicated to uplifting Donald Trump and all his works.
it’s a cult. specifically, it’s a cult dedicated to uplifting Donald Trump and all his works.
Judging by the people I know who are involved at the local level, the Republican party is now in its second coming of McCarthyism. Communism and the radical left must be defeated or else they will destroy the free practice of religion and the right to parent in accordance with that.
It’s not all that different from the 14 Words at its heart.
Judging by the people I know who are involved at the local level, the Republican party is now in its second coming of McCarthyism. Communism and the radical left must be defeated or else they will destroy the free practice of religion and the right to parent in accordance with that.
It’s not all that different from the 14 Words at its heart.
See Jerry. See Jerry Falwell.
Fall well, Jerry. Fall well.
See Jerry. See Jerry Falwell.
Fall well, Jerry. Fall well.
Anyone who declares loudly and publicly how RIGHTEOUS and HOLY they are, disparaging the SINNERS who oppose them, should be assumed (based on massive evidence, over decades) to be an enormous perv and fraud.
Just scrag ’em and save everyone a lot of time and trouble, sez I.
BTW, a comment on LGM that had me cracking up, regarding the GOP convention lineup of speakers: “Worst ComicCon EVER!”.
Anyone who declares loudly and publicly how RIGHTEOUS and HOLY they are, disparaging the SINNERS who oppose them, should be assumed (based on massive evidence, over decades) to be an enormous perv and fraud.
Just scrag ’em and save everyone a lot of time and trouble, sez I.
BTW, a comment on LGM that had me cracking up, regarding the GOP convention lineup of speakers: “Worst ComicCon EVER!”.
Anyone who declares loudly and publicly how RIGHTEOUS and HOLY they are, disparaging the SINNERS who oppose them, should be assumed (based on massive evidence, over decades) to be an enormous perv and fraud.
Seconded, thirded, ad infinitumed. My bold, for emphasis.
Anyone who declares loudly and publicly how RIGHTEOUS and HOLY they are, disparaging the SINNERS who oppose them, should be assumed (based on massive evidence, over decades) to be an enormous perv and fraud.
Seconded, thirded, ad infinitumed. My bold, for emphasis.
Anyone who declares loudly and publicly how RIGHTEOUS and HOLY they are, disparaging the SINNERS who oppose them, should be assumed (based on massive evidence, over decades) to be an enormous perv and fraud.
Well where did you think they got their detailed knowledge of sin and perversion, in order to denounce it? It’s like (just like, actually) Trump routinely accusing his oppinents of the misdeeds he himself has been committing.
Anyone who declares loudly and publicly how RIGHTEOUS and HOLY they are, disparaging the SINNERS who oppose them, should be assumed (based on massive evidence, over decades) to be an enormous perv and fraud.
Well where did you think they got their detailed knowledge of sin and perversion, in order to denounce it? It’s like (just like, actually) Trump routinely accusing his oppinents of the misdeeds he himself has been committing.
Republicans just believe the opposite of Democrats, and always have.
For the specific slate of issues you list, yes, “always” as of about 1980.
Also, “constitutional judges” is… perhaps a case of eyes of the beholder.
If you can’t bring yourself to vote for Biden, so be it, but it’s hard for me to imagine him as being actually unfriendly to business. The man is the Senator from DE.
In any case, I think you speak accurately for yourself, but the (R)’s as a party may have departed for another shore.
Republicans just believe the opposite of Democrats, and always have.
For the specific slate of issues you list, yes, “always” as of about 1980.
Also, “constitutional judges” is… perhaps a case of eyes of the beholder.
If you can’t bring yourself to vote for Biden, so be it, but it’s hard for me to imagine him as being actually unfriendly to business. The man is the Senator from DE.
In any case, I think you speak accurately for yourself, but the (R)’s as a party may have departed for another shore.
Oddly russell, a few months ago I said I would vote for Joe but not Kamala. It creates a quandary for me.
It will likely come down to whether I believe the GOP will hold the Senate.
Oddly russell, a few months ago I said I would vote for Joe but not Kamala. It creates a quandary for me.
It will likely come down to whether I believe the GOP will hold the Senate.
The absolute state of the Republican convention.
It’s like a meld between a communist party congress at the height of a totalitarian personality cult, and the cheesiest aspect of US show business.
The absolute state of the Republican convention.
It’s like a meld between a communist party congress at the height of a totalitarian personality cult, and the cheesiest aspect of US show business.
“It will likely come down to whether I believe the GOP will hold the Senate.”
Well, at least that’ll keep your go to “both sides do it” alibi intact.
“It will likely come down to whether I believe the GOP will hold the Senate.”
Well, at least that’ll keep your go to “both sides do it” alibi intact.
De-platform the malignancy:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/08/new-gop-platform-authoritarianism/615640/
De-platform the malignancy:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/08/new-gop-platform-authoritarianism/615640/
It creates a quandary for me.
It’s a tough time to try to split the difference. Not a lot of middle ground to be found.
It creates a quandary for me.
It’s a tough time to try to split the difference. Not a lot of middle ground to be found.
Just to be clear, I won’t vote for Trump either way. But I probsbly won’t add the imprimatur of my approval to the political, economic and social destruction of the country a Democratic sweep will cause.
And for anyone who thinks its all about my tax cuts, I’m pretty sure my SS would be nicer in a few years if that happened. But at a cost to the country I dont want to extract.
Just to be clear, I won’t vote for Trump either way. But I probsbly won’t add the imprimatur of my approval to the political, economic and social destruction of the country a Democratic sweep will cause.
And for anyone who thinks its all about my tax cuts, I’m pretty sure my SS would be nicer in a few years if that happened. But at a cost to the country I dont want to extract.
You’ve been clear and consistent about your unwillingness to vote for Trump. I, personally, appreciate that. A lot.
I’ve been one of the folks who have hammered on you about the tax cuts issue. The reason for that, is that it’s one of the things that you yourself named as something you were hoping to get, and did get, from a Trump presidency, and a typical (R) policy that you supported.
IMO your belief in the “political, economic and social destruction of the country” that a (D) sweep would cause seems unrealistic. But we’re all entitled to our own point of view.
To me, arguments about questions like what the top marginal tax rate should be, and whether we should have Medicare for All or just a public option or none of the above, more or less pale in comparison to the need to get DJT the hell out of the White House.
There’s also an equally urgent need to scrub the toxic, destructive ethos that he embodies out of the body politic, but that’s a much, much, much harder task, one which realistically will probably never be achieved.
I’ll settle for getting Trump and his band of corrupt minions out of public life. Or at least out of any position of public responsibility.
If the best you can find your way to doing is not voting for him, that’s fine with me.
You’ve been clear and consistent about your unwillingness to vote for Trump. I, personally, appreciate that. A lot.
I’ve been one of the folks who have hammered on you about the tax cuts issue. The reason for that, is that it’s one of the things that you yourself named as something you were hoping to get, and did get, from a Trump presidency, and a typical (R) policy that you supported.
IMO your belief in the “political, economic and social destruction of the country” that a (D) sweep would cause seems unrealistic. But we’re all entitled to our own point of view.
To me, arguments about questions like what the top marginal tax rate should be, and whether we should have Medicare for All or just a public option or none of the above, more or less pale in comparison to the need to get DJT the hell out of the White House.
There’s also an equally urgent need to scrub the toxic, destructive ethos that he embodies out of the body politic, but that’s a much, much, much harder task, one which realistically will probably never be achieved.
I’ll settle for getting Trump and his band of corrupt minions out of public life. Or at least out of any position of public responsibility.
If the best you can find your way to doing is not voting for him, that’s fine with me.
“But we’re all entitled to our own point of view.”
Time to cut entitlements.
“But we’re all entitled to our own point of view.”
Time to cut entitlements.
a few months ago I said I would vote for Joe but not Kamala. It creates a quandary for me.
Happily for you, Harris isn’t running for President. So you only have to choose between Trump and Biden. (Sure, something could happen to Biden. But consider how long it’s been since a VP succeeded in mid term.)
a few months ago I said I would vote for Joe but not Kamala. It creates a quandary for me.
Happily for you, Harris isn’t running for President. So you only have to choose between Trump and Biden. (Sure, something could happen to Biden. But consider how long it’s been since a VP succeeded in mid term.)
Trump also raised taxes with his trade wars and tariffs.
Trump also raised taxes with his trade wars and tariffs.
Trump also raised taxes with his trade wars and tariffs.
But those mostly just impacted the little people, who also didn’t get the more than offsetting benefits of the big income tax cut. So, a net win for the big libertarian donors.
Trump also raised taxes with his trade wars and tariffs.
But those mostly just impacted the little people, who also didn’t get the more than offsetting benefits of the big income tax cut. So, a net win for the big libertarian donors.
The trade wars and tariffs affected everyone to some degree. Tariffs on commodity resources harmed US manufacturers. US farmers took a hit when China wouldn’t buy their products. Then they were bailed out spreading the hit over everybody.
So, a net win for the big libertarian donors.
Libertarians, including the Kochs, are against tariffs. Are they lying? Or is this just another straw libertarian from your closet full of same?
The trade wars and tariffs affected everyone to some degree. Tariffs on commodity resources harmed US manufacturers. US farmers took a hit when China wouldn’t buy their products. Then they were bailed out spreading the hit over everybody.
So, a net win for the big libertarian donors.
Libertarians, including the Kochs, are against tariffs. Are they lying? Or is this just another straw libertarian from your closet full of same?
Whether or not the Kochs are ideologically against tariffs, they will donate to get the tax cuts so long as their cuts give them a net gain.
Whether or not the Kochs are ideologically against tariffs, they will donate to get the tax cuts so long as their cuts give them a net gain.
What nous said.
You’ll notice I said net gain.
What nous said.
You’ll notice I said net gain.
Any one who thinks a trade conflict faith China is a net negative is wrong. The positive impact far outweighs the short term negative impact. I deal with multiple companies who have or are pulling their manufacturing from China. More than half ofcthem back to the US.
So talking about tariffs as taxes is disingenuous at best.
Any one who thinks a trade conflict faith China is a net negative is wrong. The positive impact far outweighs the short term negative impact. I deal with multiple companies who have or are pulling their manufacturing from China. More than half ofcthem back to the US.
So talking about tariffs as taxes is disingenuous at best.
So talking about tariffs as taxes is disingenuous at best.
Fair enough. If you prefer to (accurately) chatacterize it as guided industrial planning ala socialism, feel free.
So talking about tariffs as taxes is disingenuous at best.
Fair enough. If you prefer to (accurately) chatacterize it as guided industrial planning ala socialism, feel free.
We are all about outsourcing when it makes investors money.
We are all about bringing manufacturing back to the US when it makes investors money.
“We” here refers to the general direction of public policy.
We are all about outsourcing when it makes investors money.
We are all about bringing manufacturing back to the US when it makes investors money.
“We” here refers to the general direction of public policy.
I’m not sure “investors” as a class disagree, however, I have been for less offshoring of jobs and increased ip protection for for 30 years.
I’m not sure “investors” as a class disagree, however, I have been for less offshoring of jobs and increased ip protection for for 30 years.
Clearly, not all people in positions to make decisions about stuff like that share your point of view.
Clearly, not all people in positions to make decisions about stuff like that share your point of view.
“So talking about tariffs as taxes is disingenuous at best.”
Disingenuous is a word. But not for this bullshit:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/03/kudlow-mr-president-tariffs-are-really-tax-hikes.html
Regarding Biden’s alleged plan to break the country by improving Social Security:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/8/25/1972125/-Social-Security-would-be-gone-by-2023-under-Trump-s-plan-to-terminate-the-payroll-tax
And when that happens, Republicans and conservatives won’t have Social Security because they WILL BE dead.
“So talking about tariffs as taxes is disingenuous at best.”
Disingenuous is a word. But not for this bullshit:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/03/kudlow-mr-president-tariffs-are-really-tax-hikes.html
Regarding Biden’s alleged plan to break the country by improving Social Security:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/8/25/1972125/-Social-Security-would-be-gone-by-2023-under-Trump-s-plan-to-terminate-the-payroll-tax
And when that happens, Republicans and conservatives won’t have Social Security because they WILL BE dead.
It’s not that there aren’t any powerful Democrats who will follow conservatives into an early grave:
https://prospect.org/politics/future-of-health-care-hinges-on-this-primary-massachusetts-richard-neal/
But that’ll have to come after we have the ham sandwich.
It’s not that there aren’t any powerful Democrats who will follow conservatives into an early grave:
https://prospect.org/politics/future-of-health-care-hinges-on-this-primary-massachusetts-richard-neal/
But that’ll have to come after we have the ham sandwich.
Re: consequences of Dem controlled Senate with Biden president:
Keep in mind the likely 50th/51st/52nd votes for any legislation will be coming from some combination of Joe Manchin (WV), Jon Tester (MT), and prospectively Cal Cunningham (NC), Theresa Greenfield (IA), Steve Bullock (MT), all states that Trump won in 2016 and may well hold this year.
And even that would only be the case if some/all of the above sign off on dumping the filibuster into the dustbin. Absent the willingness to do that the state of play will return to what it was under Obama after Scott Brown was elected in MA. That is to say, nothing of consequence will pass.
Re: consequences of Dem controlled Senate with Biden president:
Keep in mind the likely 50th/51st/52nd votes for any legislation will be coming from some combination of Joe Manchin (WV), Jon Tester (MT), and prospectively Cal Cunningham (NC), Theresa Greenfield (IA), Steve Bullock (MT), all states that Trump won in 2016 and may well hold this year.
And even that would only be the case if some/all of the above sign off on dumping the filibuster into the dustbin. Absent the willingness to do that the state of play will return to what it was under Obama after Scott Brown was elected in MA. That is to say, nothing of consequence will pass.
That is to say, nothing of consequence will pass.
Sometimes gridlock is the best you can hope for. The party in control of both the Whitehouse and congress often makes bad laws. And, when there’s bipartisan agreement, really bad laws get created.
That is to say, nothing of consequence will pass.
Sometimes gridlock is the best you can hope for. The party in control of both the Whitehouse and congress often makes bad laws. And, when there’s bipartisan agreement, really bad laws get created.
Charles, please enlighten us as to what you would consider a “good law”.
Charles, please enlighten us as to what you would consider a “good law”.
Any one who thinks a trade conflict [with]China is a net negative is wrong. The positive impact far outweighs the short term negative impact. I deal with multiple companies who have or are pulling their manufacturing from China. More than half of them back to the US.
I wonder how much of this is due to the trade conflict, though, and how much of this is related to either climate change (trying to shorten supply chains) or to worry over future disruptions to supply chains as a result of global pandemics?
Probably not easily separable, but how one decides the relative effect of the three seems like it’s a bit of an article of faith.
Any one who thinks a trade conflict [with]China is a net negative is wrong. The positive impact far outweighs the short term negative impact. I deal with multiple companies who have or are pulling their manufacturing from China. More than half of them back to the US.
I wonder how much of this is due to the trade conflict, though, and how much of this is related to either climate change (trying to shorten supply chains) or to worry over future disruptions to supply chains as a result of global pandemics?
Probably not easily separable, but how one decides the relative effect of the three seems like it’s a bit of an article of faith.
All my children:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/8/25/1972143/-RNC-speaker-says-her-Black-son-is-more-likely-to-commit-a-violent-offense-over-my-white-sons
With that hard bigotry of low expectations, would it be any surprise?
She spoke at the RNC.
Subhumans.
Joan Crawford, Caligula, and Stephen Miller’s beaten, rabid dog will be on the speaking roster tomorrow to provide uplift and vision.
All my children:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/8/25/1972143/-RNC-speaker-says-her-Black-son-is-more-likely-to-commit-a-violent-offense-over-my-white-sons
With that hard bigotry of low expectations, would it be any surprise?
She spoke at the RNC.
Subhumans.
Joan Crawford, Caligula, and Stephen Miller’s beaten, rabid dog will be on the speaking roster tomorrow to provide uplift and vision.
nous,
Not so much an article of faith when you talk to the owner about the reasons and impacts directly. In my direct knowledge there were many companies moving to Vietnam and Malaysia along with a few to the states when the trade skirmish kicked up. The pace of moving back to the US picked up considerably in the last 5 months, with the US government providing incentive by demanding US made for a broader range of contracts.
In particular, I have some relationship with 9 companies building out PPE manufacturing capabilities in the US and Canada (I only work for money for two of them), all turning down in place capability in Hanoi and China so they can meet new government requirements, even though some large portion of their business is commercial.
Technology is of course the key to making these new facilities price competitive.
nous,
Not so much an article of faith when you talk to the owner about the reasons and impacts directly. In my direct knowledge there were many companies moving to Vietnam and Malaysia along with a few to the states when the trade skirmish kicked up. The pace of moving back to the US picked up considerably in the last 5 months, with the US government providing incentive by demanding US made for a broader range of contracts.
In particular, I have some relationship with 9 companies building out PPE manufacturing capabilities in the US and Canada (I only work for money for two of them), all turning down in place capability in Hanoi and China so they can meet new government requirements, even though some large portion of their business is commercial.
Technology is of course the key to making these new facilities price competitive.
there were many companies moving to Vietnam and Malaysia
Vietnam and Malaysia have cheaper labor costs than China.
Some of the move back to the US is (depending on industry) compliance, some is concern about supply lines. A number of things have happened in the last 5 months, some of them quite noteworthy.
And some is simply that wages in China have risen, while real wages here basically have not, and the differential between Chinese and US labor is not what it was 10 or 20 years ago.
If total cost of production – including but not limited to labor cost – is lower somewhere other than the US, production will quite often move overseas. Or, if it’s already there, stay overseas, or maybe move to someplace else overseas.
Some industries mix and match, where some aspects of production are overseas, and some here.
The trend in my industry lately is offshoring to eastern Europe, which has the legacy of Soviet era engineering education (which was quite good) and low cost. India’s still cheaper than here and works well for some stuff, Romania and Bulgaria are competitive with that and have smaller time zone issues, among other things.
Trump made a lot of noise about an “America first” industrial policy, but I’m not seeing that much action. Free flow of capital and markets has been the go-to mantra for the last 30 or 40 years – certainly since Clinton – and I don’t see much change today.
there were many companies moving to Vietnam and Malaysia
Vietnam and Malaysia have cheaper labor costs than China.
Some of the move back to the US is (depending on industry) compliance, some is concern about supply lines. A number of things have happened in the last 5 months, some of them quite noteworthy.
And some is simply that wages in China have risen, while real wages here basically have not, and the differential between Chinese and US labor is not what it was 10 or 20 years ago.
If total cost of production – including but not limited to labor cost – is lower somewhere other than the US, production will quite often move overseas. Or, if it’s already there, stay overseas, or maybe move to someplace else overseas.
Some industries mix and match, where some aspects of production are overseas, and some here.
The trend in my industry lately is offshoring to eastern Europe, which has the legacy of Soviet era engineering education (which was quite good) and low cost. India’s still cheaper than here and works well for some stuff, Romania and Bulgaria are competitive with that and have smaller time zone issues, among other things.
Trump made a lot of noise about an “America first” industrial policy, but I’m not seeing that much action. Free flow of capital and markets has been the go-to mantra for the last 30 or 40 years – certainly since Clinton – and I don’t see much change today.
Free flow of capital and markets has been the go-to mantra for the last 30 or 40 years – certainly since Clinton – and I don’t see much change today.
You don’t? That’s definitely not the Trump/populism mantra. And the self-styled conservatives are enabling him, not fighting for their onone-time principles on that.
Free flow of capital and markets has been the go-to mantra for the last 30 or 40 years – certainly since Clinton – and I don’t see much change today.
You don’t? That’s definitely not the Trump/populism mantra. And the self-styled conservatives are enabling him, not fighting for their onone-time principles on that.
You don’t? That’s definitely not the Trump/populism mantra.
I think you are correct, at the level of mantra, and at the level of actions like tariffs and provocative trade wars.
I’ll amend my statement:
Trump made a lot of noise about an “America first” industrial policy, but I’m not seeing that much constructive result.
Mostly because I don’t think he has any way of negotiating other than starting a pissing contest. And his counter-parties in this case are sovereign nations, and aren’t obliged to play by his rules.
You don’t? That’s definitely not the Trump/populism mantra.
I think you are correct, at the level of mantra, and at the level of actions like tariffs and provocative trade wars.
I’ll amend my statement:
Trump made a lot of noise about an “America first” industrial policy, but I’m not seeing that much constructive result.
Mostly because I don’t think he has any way of negotiating other than starting a pissing contest. And his counter-parties in this case are sovereign nations, and aren’t obliged to play by his rules.
The RNC gaslighting of America would be a fascinating case study, if it wasn’t clear (even here) how easy it is to persuade otherwise sane people of a complete through-the-looking-glass “reality”. Alternative facts in action – Kellyanne might be leaving, but her construction lives on.
Even after three and a half years, it’s still absolutely mindblowing. There’s no doubt in my mind they might end up pulling it off.
The RNC gaslighting of America would be a fascinating case study, if it wasn’t clear (even here) how easy it is to persuade otherwise sane people of a complete through-the-looking-glass “reality”. Alternative facts in action – Kellyanne might be leaving, but her construction lives on.
Even after three and a half years, it’s still absolutely mindblowing. There’s no doubt in my mind they might end up pulling it off.
otherwise sane people
Facts not in evidence.
otherwise sane people
Facts not in evidence.
otherwise sane people
Facts not in evidence.
Well, 35%-40% of the population being total, all around, lunatics seems improbable. So likely some of them qualify as “otherwise sane people.”
Admittedly, the number of total nutters does seem depressingly high. But I suspect it’s more in the 10% range.
otherwise sane people
Facts not in evidence.
Well, 35%-40% of the population being total, all around, lunatics seems improbable. So likely some of them qualify as “otherwise sane people.”
Admittedly, the number of total nutters does seem depressingly high. But I suspect it’s more in the 10% range.
27%
27%
How interconnected is our world?
My wife is watching a cooking show. And they’re making pool boy jokes. (With nobody feeling a need to explain the sudden proliferation.)
How interconnected is our world?
My wife is watching a cooking show. And they’re making pool boy jokes. (With nobody feeling a need to explain the sudden proliferation.)
how easy it is to persuade otherwise sane people of a complete through-the-looking-glass “reality”
Look, I’m going to quote Marty here, which is probably going to seem unfair. But it’s just an example.
Upthread here Marty offers this:
Which seems, to me, to be pretty much divorced from reality. Maybe it was intended as an exercise in hyperbole, I don’t know. But as a prediction of any kind of probable outcome – if the (D)’s win the White House and the Senate and hold the Senate, the nation will experience political, economic, and social destruction – it just seems batty.
Marty participates here regularly, is welcome here, quite often has insightful things to say, is generally considered to be a well-meaning guy. He’s not crazy. But he appears to be convinced of things that seem plainly untrue and unlikely.
And he is not, remotely, anywhere near the outer fringes of current-day (R) thought. Not within a light-year of it.
Marty is middle of the road.
I have no idea how to engage people in dialog about any of this. There is no common understanding of basic reality. It’s hard to even call it disagreement, it’s much deeper than that. It’s almost an epistemological chasm – a failure of consensus on how you can even know anything, let alone any discussion of what the thing is that is known.
What I feel pretty confident about is that, if Trump gets another four years, he will fuck this country up beyond any reasonable hope of repair in my lifetime, and probably a generation or so beyond that. No matter who wins, the nation has been diminished, in our own eyes and in the eyes of the world. What’s been lost may never be fully regained. Whether that’s a good thing, or a bad thing, I’m not interested in having that debate. It’s just a reality we are going to have to deal with.
I just want this freaking election to be over so we know what we’re dealing with. Where it goes from there, I have no idea. I really don’t.
It’s the damndest thing I’ve ever seen.
how easy it is to persuade otherwise sane people of a complete through-the-looking-glass “reality”
Look, I’m going to quote Marty here, which is probably going to seem unfair. But it’s just an example.
Upthread here Marty offers this:
Which seems, to me, to be pretty much divorced from reality. Maybe it was intended as an exercise in hyperbole, I don’t know. But as a prediction of any kind of probable outcome – if the (D)’s win the White House and the Senate and hold the Senate, the nation will experience political, economic, and social destruction – it just seems batty.
Marty participates here regularly, is welcome here, quite often has insightful things to say, is generally considered to be a well-meaning guy. He’s not crazy. But he appears to be convinced of things that seem plainly untrue and unlikely.
And he is not, remotely, anywhere near the outer fringes of current-day (R) thought. Not within a light-year of it.
Marty is middle of the road.
I have no idea how to engage people in dialog about any of this. There is no common understanding of basic reality. It’s hard to even call it disagreement, it’s much deeper than that. It’s almost an epistemological chasm – a failure of consensus on how you can even know anything, let alone any discussion of what the thing is that is known.
What I feel pretty confident about is that, if Trump gets another four years, he will fuck this country up beyond any reasonable hope of repair in my lifetime, and probably a generation or so beyond that. No matter who wins, the nation has been diminished, in our own eyes and in the eyes of the world. What’s been lost may never be fully regained. Whether that’s a good thing, or a bad thing, I’m not interested in having that debate. It’s just a reality we are going to have to deal with.
I just want this freaking election to be over so we know what we’re dealing with. Where it goes from there, I have no idea. I really don’t.
It’s the damndest thing I’ve ever seen.
Shorter me:
A significant portion of the nation has gone mad.
Will that turn around? I don’t know.
What happens if it doesn’t turn around? I don’t know.
Shorter me:
A significant portion of the nation has gone mad.
Will that turn around? I don’t know.
What happens if it doesn’t turn around? I don’t know.
It’s ironic, if we had gone for something like a Green New Deal, we could have ameliorated some of the outsourcing issues, if wind and solar had been picked up, with perhaps a feed-in tariff
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feed-in_tariff
we would have kept a lot of work within the US. Funny how that worked out.
It’s ironic, if we had gone for something like a Green New Deal, we could have ameliorated some of the outsourcing issues, if wind and solar had been picked up, with perhaps a feed-in tariff
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feed-in_tariff
we would have kept a lot of work within the US. Funny how that worked out.
https://digbysblog.net/2020/08/they-knew-he-was-a-snake-before-they-let-him-in/
https://digbysblog.net/2020/08/they-knew-he-was-a-snake-before-they-let-him-in/
Yeah, the last time there was a “Dem sweep” was for a few short months in 2008 (between the Coleman/Franken recount & GOP intransigence and Teddy Kennedy’s death) when they (shock! horror!) made health insurance a bit more sensible, affordable, and available.
Which, of course, didn’t include a majority in the Supreme Court, allowing John ‘lawless’ Roberts to toss parts of the Voting Rights Act by completely ignoring the 15th Amendment, claiming that the lopsided congressional votes renewing the VRA were reasons to toss it, and citing part of the Confederate Constitution as a basis for his ruling.
Yeah, the last time there was a “Dem sweep” was for a few short months in 2008 (between the Coleman/Franken recount & GOP intransigence and Teddy Kennedy’s death) when they (shock! horror!) made health insurance a bit more sensible, affordable, and available.
Which, of course, didn’t include a majority in the Supreme Court, allowing John ‘lawless’ Roberts to toss parts of the Voting Rights Act by completely ignoring the 15th Amendment, claiming that the lopsided congressional votes renewing the VRA were reasons to toss it, and citing part of the Confederate Constitution as a basis for his ruling.
… There is no common understanding of basic reality. It’s hard to even call it disagreement, it’s much deeper than that. It’s almost an epistemological chasm..
I think you have to accept that Trump has a genius for emotional manipulation, and that for all of us, in particular circumstances, emotion overrides reason.
It’s analogous to those that find Boris Johnson charismatic (to some extent irrespective of whether they’d actually vote for him).
I just don’t get that at all, as for whatever reason, I’m utterly immune to it. But it’s very clear that for some people, it’s a real thing.
… There is no common understanding of basic reality. It’s hard to even call it disagreement, it’s much deeper than that. It’s almost an epistemological chasm..
I think you have to accept that Trump has a genius for emotional manipulation, and that for all of us, in particular circumstances, emotion overrides reason.
It’s analogous to those that find Boris Johnson charismatic (to some extent irrespective of whether they’d actually vote for him).
I just don’t get that at all, as for whatever reason, I’m utterly immune to it. But it’s very clear that for some people, it’s a real thing.
Yes, that (even here) of mine was specifically thinking of Marty, and that comment of his upthread about Dem destruction of America. And we’ve seen in the not-too-distant past how effective the propaganda on Trump’s handling of the pandemic was on him.
I’ve been yammering on for years about the terrible danger posed by there being no agreed basis of fact, no agreed “reliable source”. And this starts to look like its horrific apotheosis: a convention where they tell nothing but lies, the complete opposite of the truth, and are believed by enough of the population to possibly win the next election. It’s beyond terrifying.
Yes, that (even here) of mine was specifically thinking of Marty, and that comment of his upthread about Dem destruction of America. And we’ve seen in the not-too-distant past how effective the propaganda on Trump’s handling of the pandemic was on him.
I’ve been yammering on for years about the terrible danger posed by there being no agreed basis of fact, no agreed “reliable source”. And this starts to look like its horrific apotheosis: a convention where they tell nothing but lies, the complete opposite of the truth, and are believed by enough of the population to possibly win the next election. It’s beyond terrifying.
Snarki: Yeah, the last time there was a “Dem sweep” was for a few short months in 2008 (between the Coleman/Franken recount & GOP intransigence and Teddy Kennedy’s death) when they (shock! horror!) made health insurance a bit more sensible, affordable, and available.
Yes, that health care act set them off! What, somebody gets to go to see a doctor without declaring bankruptcy?
Nigel: I think you have to accept that Trump has a genius for emotional manipulation, and that for all of us, in particular circumstances, emotion overrides reason.
They’ve certainly found their hero in Trump, but the tea party movement in 2010 was an indication that whatever is happening in the US is not just about Trump. It’s the culture of [mostly] white entitlement, resentment, and insecurity. I never realized how deep it still ran.
Snarki: Yeah, the last time there was a “Dem sweep” was for a few short months in 2008 (between the Coleman/Franken recount & GOP intransigence and Teddy Kennedy’s death) when they (shock! horror!) made health insurance a bit more sensible, affordable, and available.
Yes, that health care act set them off! What, somebody gets to go to see a doctor without declaring bankruptcy?
Nigel: I think you have to accept that Trump has a genius for emotional manipulation, and that for all of us, in particular circumstances, emotion overrides reason.
They’ve certainly found their hero in Trump, but the tea party movement in 2010 was an indication that whatever is happening in the US is not just about Trump. It’s the culture of [mostly] white entitlement, resentment, and insecurity. I never realized how deep it still ran.
Any one who thinks a trade conflict [with]China is a net negative is wrong. The positive impact far outweighs the short term negative impact. I deal with multiple companies who have or are pulling their manufacturing from China. More than half of them back to the US.
A trade conflict with China is a net negative. Having Chinese people making stuff for the US much more cheaply than US people will make it is a clear positive.
Consider iPhones for example. Apple sells a lot of them around the world, and the product accounts for about half of the revenue which values the company at $2tn. If the phones were made in the US they’d cost maybe three times as much, and Apple would be able to export none of them.
Any one who thinks a trade conflict [with]China is a net negative is wrong. The positive impact far outweighs the short term negative impact. I deal with multiple companies who have or are pulling their manufacturing from China. More than half of them back to the US.
A trade conflict with China is a net negative. Having Chinese people making stuff for the US much more cheaply than US people will make it is a clear positive.
Consider iPhones for example. Apple sells a lot of them around the world, and the product accounts for about half of the revenue which values the company at $2tn. If the phones were made in the US they’d cost maybe three times as much, and Apple would be able to export none of them.
I’ve been yammering on for years about the terrible danger posed by there being no agreed basis of fact, no agreed “reliable source”.
That’s one reason I get so snitty when people don’t have links, you really need to point to precisely what is being said. (I get snitty for other reasons too, but I’d say that this is number one on my list)
I’ve been yammering on for years about the terrible danger posed by there being no agreed basis of fact, no agreed “reliable source”.
That’s one reason I get so snitty when people don’t have links, you really need to point to precisely what is being said. (I get snitty for other reasons too, but I’d say that this is number one on my list)
Sorry lj, to the extent this applies to me. I was thinking specifically about the insanely rhapsodic version of Trump’s impeccable reaction to the pandemic portrayed at the convention. I’ve watched some of it (on the news) in slack-jawed disbelief, along with much of the rest of the world, but don’t have time to find a really juicy example to link at the moment. Will do so when I get back from chores in the great outside!
Sorry lj, to the extent this applies to me. I was thinking specifically about the insanely rhapsodic version of Trump’s impeccable reaction to the pandemic portrayed at the convention. I’ve watched some of it (on the news) in slack-jawed disbelief, along with much of the rest of the world, but don’t have time to find a really juicy example to link at the moment. Will do so when I get back from chores in the great outside!
Pro Bono,
The reality is that the cost, as russell points out, for many of the things built in China is no longer the reason things are manufactured there.
The ability to do precision manufacturing no longer exists as a skill set in the US. If Apple needed to rely on US manufacturing it would be able to make a million or two a year. Putting it out of business.
The lower cost manufacturing of textile products is becoming more automated, reducing the people requirements by 5 to 10 times making US manufacturing more realistic.
The move from China for those companies that can find the skills for what they make is based on the realization that eventually the US and other countries will have to create an alternative to the workforce in China. Which will take years of investment by governments since Apple obviously wont.
Pro Bono,
The reality is that the cost, as russell points out, for many of the things built in China is no longer the reason things are manufactured there.
The ability to do precision manufacturing no longer exists as a skill set in the US. If Apple needed to rely on US manufacturing it would be able to make a million or two a year. Putting it out of business.
The lower cost manufacturing of textile products is becoming more automated, reducing the people requirements by 5 to 10 times making US manufacturing more realistic.
The move from China for those companies that can find the skills for what they make is based on the realization that eventually the US and other countries will have to create an alternative to the workforce in China. Which will take years of investment by governments since Apple obviously wont.
no agreed basis in fact
Speaking of which, there is again violence in the streets. Again, the violence is not caused by people protesting violence against black lives.
(Not speaking for lj here, but I think he may have been referring to a conversation related to this issue.)
no agreed basis in fact
Speaking of which, there is again violence in the streets. Again, the violence is not caused by people protesting violence against black lives.
(Not speaking for lj here, but I think he may have been referring to a conversation related to this issue.)
Marty at 8:16: You write with authority, Marty, but where do find this information out? Links help other people evaluate the strength of your remarks, yet you almost never provide them.
Marty at 8:16: You write with authority, Marty, but where do find this information out? Links help other people evaluate the strength of your remarks, yet you almost never provide them.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2018/01/17/how-much-would-an-iphone-cost-if-apple-were-forced-to-make-it-in-america/
Here’s one I found this morning.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2018/01/17/how-much-would-an-iphone-cost-if-apple-were-forced-to-make-it-in-america/
Here’s one I found this morning.
This editorial by Brian Klaas belongs here, although it would also have been fun in the Potemkin thread.
This editorial by Brian Klaas belongs here, although it would also have been fun in the Potemkin thread.
I’ve been yammering on for years about the terrible danger posed by there being no agreed basis of fact, no agreed “reliable source”.
I was chatting with an acquaintance last week. She’s my age, and apparently a lifelong Democrat. She was lamenting the loss of people like Walter Cronkite, who everybody could trust. But it’s pretty clear where she’s getting her (mis)information now, as she was talking, among other things, about how hard Trump works. Just living in a whole different universe.
I’ve been yammering on for years about the terrible danger posed by there being no agreed basis of fact, no agreed “reliable source”.
I was chatting with an acquaintance last week. She’s my age, and apparently a lifelong Democrat. She was lamenting the loss of people like Walter Cronkite, who everybody could trust. But it’s pretty clear where she’s getting her (mis)information now, as she was talking, among other things, about how hard Trump works. Just living in a whole different universe.
That’s an interesting article, Marty, and illuminates your point, which is why you should do that regularly.
That’s an interesting article, Marty, and illuminates your point, which is why you should do that regularly.
The thing is sapient, it illuminates some of my point. I tend to not go find links when I am making points about business subjects where I am involved in the decision making process on a day basis. I know why companies are moving out of China because I am in the meetings where the alternatives are being discussed.
I happen to work with an advanced manufacturing research firm that is in the business of helping companies automate, and substantially improve, their manufacturing processes. Very small and very cutting edge but working with textile manufacturers whose clients are as diverse as Lululemon and the us military. Along with Nike and Under Armor.
So I dont think to look up links when talking about things I am a reasonable expert on, understanding that Tim Cook may be a more universally identifiable expert.
The thing is sapient, it illuminates some of my point. I tend to not go find links when I am making points about business subjects where I am involved in the decision making process on a day basis. I know why companies are moving out of China because I am in the meetings where the alternatives are being discussed.
I happen to work with an advanced manufacturing research firm that is in the business of helping companies automate, and substantially improve, their manufacturing processes. Very small and very cutting edge but working with textile manufacturers whose clients are as diverse as Lululemon and the us military. Along with Nike and Under Armor.
So I dont think to look up links when talking about things I am a reasonable expert on, understanding that Tim Cook may be a more universally identifiable expert.
I will add that Tim is being a little disingenuous. The top end pay for Chinese workers, even in IT tends to be around 20k per year, which means they aren’t the low cost labor market compared to Malaysia, but they are still considerably cheaper than the US.
Foxconn workers average about $400 a month, so the supply chain there is still much cheaper. I don’t have a link but Google foxconn wages in china, it just comes up.
I will add that Tim is being a little disingenuous. The top end pay for Chinese workers, even in IT tends to be around 20k per year, which means they aren’t the low cost labor market compared to Malaysia, but they are still considerably cheaper than the US.
Foxconn workers average about $400 a month, so the supply chain there is still much cheaper. I don’t have a link but Google foxconn wages in china, it just comes up.
The ability to do precision manufacturing no longer exists as a skill set in the US.
You are much closer to this than I am, but my impression is that it might be more accurate to say the ability to do precision manufacturing *at scale*.
But you could be correct, it could be the ability to do so *at all*.
The move from China for those companies that can find the skills for what they make is based on the realization that eventually the US and other countries will have to create an alternative to the workforce in China. Which will take years of investment by governments since Apple obviously wont.
People will take different things away from this.
What I take away is that this:
is what is missing from the Trumpian “America First” noise.
The normal response of a sovereign nation to the kinds of economic competitive pressure we all live with is a rational industrial policy. An analysis of strengths and weaknesses, advantages and vulnerabilities, some reasonable projection about where the world is headed in terms of technology and markets in general.
And then a sensible program of policies to insure that the nation is reasonably well positioned to succeed, economically.
So that people can make a living.
Marty is correct that Apple will not do it. Most industries will not do it. Basically, no industry will do it, unless the conditions are such that it’s better for their bottom line to make that kind of investment in human capital than to simply find it somewhere else.
It’s an appropriate role for government.
Trump has figured out that a lot of people are pissed off because their livelihood has been offshored.
He doesn’t have the skill set to deal with that in an intelligent way. The only skill set he has is turning every disagreement into a pissing contest. Because he knows how to piss. He’s world-class at it.
I don’t know if we will ever get past our freaking knee-jerk horror of “socialism” and “government picking winners and losers” so that we can arrive at an intelligent industrial policy. My guess is that other actors – states and other municipalities, non-profits, maybe some private actors – are going to have to do it.
But the rest of the world is moving on with this stuff.
The ability to do precision manufacturing no longer exists as a skill set in the US.
You are much closer to this than I am, but my impression is that it might be more accurate to say the ability to do precision manufacturing *at scale*.
But you could be correct, it could be the ability to do so *at all*.
The move from China for those companies that can find the skills for what they make is based on the realization that eventually the US and other countries will have to create an alternative to the workforce in China. Which will take years of investment by governments since Apple obviously wont.
People will take different things away from this.
What I take away is that this:
is what is missing from the Trumpian “America First” noise.
The normal response of a sovereign nation to the kinds of economic competitive pressure we all live with is a rational industrial policy. An analysis of strengths and weaknesses, advantages and vulnerabilities, some reasonable projection about where the world is headed in terms of technology and markets in general.
And then a sensible program of policies to insure that the nation is reasonably well positioned to succeed, economically.
So that people can make a living.
Marty is correct that Apple will not do it. Most industries will not do it. Basically, no industry will do it, unless the conditions are such that it’s better for their bottom line to make that kind of investment in human capital than to simply find it somewhere else.
It’s an appropriate role for government.
Trump has figured out that a lot of people are pissed off because their livelihood has been offshored.
He doesn’t have the skill set to deal with that in an intelligent way. The only skill set he has is turning every disagreement into a pissing contest. Because he knows how to piss. He’s world-class at it.
I don’t know if we will ever get past our freaking knee-jerk horror of “socialism” and “government picking winners and losers” so that we can arrive at an intelligent industrial policy. My guess is that other actors – states and other municipalities, non-profits, maybe some private actors – are going to have to do it.
But the rest of the world is moving on with this stuff.
The reality is that the cost, as russell points out, for many of the things built in China is no longer the reason things are manufactured there.
It’s no longer the only reason, but the point remains that relatively cheap labour in China and elsewhere is an essential part of US companies making money out of US IP. Imposing tariff barriers to stop this is economic madness.
The fundamental problem is that low-skilled people in the US want to be paid several times more than high-skilled people in many other countries. There is no amount of political rhetoric which can make that possible, and nor should there be.
One respect in which Republican values have changed is an increased willingness to promise unicorns, and to believe those promises.
The reality is that the cost, as russell points out, for many of the things built in China is no longer the reason things are manufactured there.
It’s no longer the only reason, but the point remains that relatively cheap labour in China and elsewhere is an essential part of US companies making money out of US IP. Imposing tariff barriers to stop this is economic madness.
The fundamental problem is that low-skilled people in the US want to be paid several times more than high-skilled people in many other countries. There is no amount of political rhetoric which can make that possible, and nor should there be.
One respect in which Republican values have changed is an increased willingness to promise unicorns, and to believe those promises.
Remember in 2016 when Trump said that we can’t compete because American workers make too much money?
And he still won (at least technically).
Remember in 2016 when Trump said that we can’t compete because American workers make too much money?
And he still won (at least technically).
OK. So watching too much of the convention is bad for one’s mental health, but in the following very long (two and a half-hour) clip, if you start at 35.30 you have the ridiculous claims about the superlative Trump response to the pandemic, some of which was played on the news yesterday.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7CuyHF_0rY
Then, if you want to see stats on the US v the rest of the world, this is the place to go:
https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus
But clearly, the US has the highest number of deaths, and the 6th highest deaths per million of population.
I presume I don’t have to include links to Trump saying a) the number of cases in the US was “15, and will soon be down to zero”, b) the virus would go away with the warm weather, c) the virus would “just disappear”. Ditto, him saying “nobody could have foreseen this”.
As a side note I will add this. It’s hard to know how many people died in China, and I don’t accept the Chinese government’s figures. But, seeing how things are there now, it looks certain that they have done a far better job of containment than the US has done. Contrary to McKinney’s asinine assertions about our love for the CPC, I would add that I have personal reason to hate and fear their repressive and authoritarian dictatorship, which threatens people and places I have loved since childhood. So no presumptuous and ill-informed sermons on my fellow-travelling, please.
As for all the absurd guff at the convention, and on all Trump mouthpieces, about the magnificent economy, unprecedented job creation etc:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trump-didnt-transform-the-economy-its-mostly-the-same-as-it-was-under-obama-2019-11-12
For the following one, you have to click through to the graph headed Job Creation by President: Cumulative % Increase, and for anyone who might be tempted to sneer because it is Wikipedia, it is compiled from Federal Reserve Economic Data (FRED).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_States#/media/File:Job_Growth_by_U.S._President_-_v1.png
OK. So watching too much of the convention is bad for one’s mental health, but in the following very long (two and a half-hour) clip, if you start at 35.30 you have the ridiculous claims about the superlative Trump response to the pandemic, some of which was played on the news yesterday.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7CuyHF_0rY
Then, if you want to see stats on the US v the rest of the world, this is the place to go:
https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus
But clearly, the US has the highest number of deaths, and the 6th highest deaths per million of population.
I presume I don’t have to include links to Trump saying a) the number of cases in the US was “15, and will soon be down to zero”, b) the virus would go away with the warm weather, c) the virus would “just disappear”. Ditto, him saying “nobody could have foreseen this”.
As a side note I will add this. It’s hard to know how many people died in China, and I don’t accept the Chinese government’s figures. But, seeing how things are there now, it looks certain that they have done a far better job of containment than the US has done. Contrary to McKinney’s asinine assertions about our love for the CPC, I would add that I have personal reason to hate and fear their repressive and authoritarian dictatorship, which threatens people and places I have loved since childhood. So no presumptuous and ill-informed sermons on my fellow-travelling, please.
As for all the absurd guff at the convention, and on all Trump mouthpieces, about the magnificent economy, unprecedented job creation etc:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trump-didnt-transform-the-economy-its-mostly-the-same-as-it-was-under-obama-2019-11-12
For the following one, you have to click through to the graph headed Job Creation by President: Cumulative % Increase, and for anyone who might be tempted to sneer because it is Wikipedia, it is compiled from Federal Reserve Economic Data (FRED).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_States#/media/File:Job_Growth_by_U.S._President_-_v1.png
The fundamental problem is that low-skilled people in the US want to be paid several times more than high-skilled people in many other countries.
Remember in 2016 when Trump said that we can’t compete because American workers make too much money?
The problem is, you can’t live in the US on a Chinese worker’s wages. So low skilled workers in the US need to make more than high skilled workers in other countries, or they won’t eat.
watching too much of the convention is bad for one’s mental health
I watched about five minutes of Guilfoyle’s speech from Monday night.
What I take away from that, and from most things I hear from people speaking for Trump, is that Trump supporters are extremely frightened people.
Extremely. Like, existentially terrified.
I don’t have any insights into how to fix that.
The fundamental problem is that low-skilled people in the US want to be paid several times more than high-skilled people in many other countries.
Remember in 2016 when Trump said that we can’t compete because American workers make too much money?
The problem is, you can’t live in the US on a Chinese worker’s wages. So low skilled workers in the US need to make more than high skilled workers in other countries, or they won’t eat.
watching too much of the convention is bad for one’s mental health
I watched about five minutes of Guilfoyle’s speech from Monday night.
What I take away from that, and from most things I hear from people speaking for Trump, is that Trump supporters are extremely frightened people.
Extremely. Like, existentially terrified.
I don’t have any insights into how to fix that.
Extremely. Like, existentially terrified.
I don’t have any insights into how to fix that.
Well, a good first step would be to have the media outlets which spend all day, every day, stoking that fear cease and desist. Not sure there is a quick and easy way to do that, however. But it seems like a necessary precursor.
Extremely. Like, existentially terrified.
I don’t have any insights into how to fix that.
Well, a good first step would be to have the media outlets which spend all day, every day, stoking that fear cease and desist. Not sure there is a quick and easy way to do that, however. But it seems like a necessary precursor.
GftNC, I wasn’t complaining about you, when it is back and forth, I don’t mind, it’s when someone clearly has someone starts the conversation with a certainty, but doesn’t provide anything to reflect on. I feel that I have a reasonably good knowledge of say, Japan when I write about it, but I don’t expect people to believe what I say, just because I say so. If things are really such common knowledge, it should be simple enough to say ‘I know this and here’s something that reflects that’.
GftNC, I wasn’t complaining about you, when it is back and forth, I don’t mind, it’s when someone clearly has someone starts the conversation with a certainty, but doesn’t provide anything to reflect on. I feel that I have a reasonably good knowledge of say, Japan when I write about it, but I don’t expect people to believe what I say, just because I say so. If things are really such common knowledge, it should be simple enough to say ‘I know this and here’s something that reflects that’.
Guilfoyle’s speech was particularly horrifying, not so much for the content (ridiculous though that was) as for the delivery. If you switched off after five minutes, russell, you may have missed the development of the crescendo, which built and built until the shouted end. As you know, I reject automatic comparisons to Nazism, but the hysteria of her delivery was eerily reminiscent of Hitler. We shall have to wait and see if it was as successful in its appeal to the worst in its intended audience.
Guilfoyle’s speech was particularly horrifying, not so much for the content (ridiculous though that was) as for the delivery. If you switched off after five minutes, russell, you may have missed the development of the crescendo, which built and built until the shouted end. As you know, I reject automatic comparisons to Nazism, but the hysteria of her delivery was eerily reminiscent of Hitler. We shall have to wait and see if it was as successful in its appeal to the worst in its intended audience.
Thanks, lj, I’m glad. I’d hate to have to go through that data trawl every time I posted!
Thanks, lj, I’m glad. I’d hate to have to go through that data trawl every time I posted!
If you switched off after five minutes
I think what I watched was more or less the last five minutes. So, things were already turned up to 11.
have the media outlets which spend all day, every day, stoking that fear cease and desist
Not gonna happen. Too much money in it.
Meanwhile, in Kenosha, we appear to be moving into live rounds territory.
That thing that nous talks about, with all the free-lance vigilante violence?
This is that.
If you switched off after five minutes
I think what I watched was more or less the last five minutes. So, things were already turned up to 11.
have the media outlets which spend all day, every day, stoking that fear cease and desist
Not gonna happen. Too much money in it.
Meanwhile, in Kenosha, we appear to be moving into live rounds territory.
That thing that nous talks about, with all the free-lance vigilante violence?
This is that.
You especially have to love it that, two nights running, the RNC has displayed images of “America” which turn out to be stock photos of other countries. (Thailand Monday, and Ukraine and Russia last night.) So hard to get competent staff these days….
You especially have to love it that, two nights running, the RNC has displayed images of “America” which turn out to be stock photos of other countries. (Thailand Monday, and Ukraine and Russia last night.) So hard to get competent staff these days….
As you know, I reject automatic comparisons to Nazism, but the hysteria of her delivery was eerily reminiscent of Hitler.
Still only in the wanna-be league. Barely registered on the Robert-Ley scale.
Maybe a bit of over analysis but I found it telling that the pitch went slightly down on the last syllable, so it did not end in the expected shriek. To me that says that it was a controlled performance with no ‘real’ rage in it. What was missing was the crowd it was intended to drive into a blind rage.
Btw, Hitler hated speeches without audience (and intensely disliked the telephone for the same reason). He needed to have visual contact with the recipients and the immediate reaction.
As you know, I reject automatic comparisons to Nazism, but the hysteria of her delivery was eerily reminiscent of Hitler.
Still only in the wanna-be league. Barely registered on the Robert-Ley scale.
Maybe a bit of over analysis but I found it telling that the pitch went slightly down on the last syllable, so it did not end in the expected shriek. To me that says that it was a controlled performance with no ‘real’ rage in it. What was missing was the crowd it was intended to drive into a blind rage.
Btw, Hitler hated speeches without audience (and intensely disliked the telephone for the same reason). He needed to have visual contact with the recipients and the immediate reaction.
Still only in the wanna-be league.
I bow to greater expertise.
Still only in the wanna-be league.
I bow to greater expertise.
It is interesting how broad the spectrum of “Nazi speech” was, far broader than the usual soundbites. And people like Hitler and Goebbels fine-tuned their way of speech to the occasion. And at least in the case of Goebbels we know how much he despised the people he manipulated with his voice (e.g. his merciless mockery in his diary of the crowd at his ‘total war’ speech where he compared himself to a religious cult leader who could have made them jump out the windows).
It is interesting how broad the spectrum of “Nazi speech” was, far broader than the usual soundbites. And people like Hitler and Goebbels fine-tuned their way of speech to the occasion. And at least in the case of Goebbels we know how much he despised the people he manipulated with his voice (e.g. his merciless mockery in his diary of the crowd at his ‘total war’ speech where he compared himself to a religious cult leader who could have made them jump out the windows).
Meanwhile, in Kenosha, we appear to be moving into live rounds territory.
That thing that nous talks about, with all the free-lance vigilante violence?
This is that.
WI had an active posse comitatus when I was growing up there and its stealth racism goes deep.
Trump is now sending federal law enforcement there.
I predict: Trump’s ratings go up there; the feds spend all their time protecting property and beating on angry and despairing blacks; the boogaloo crowd fades into the countryside and posts “play stupid games, win stupid prizes” memes over pics of the dead protesters.
That’s not the science fiction mode, that’s just straight-up extrapolation.
Meanwhile, in Kenosha, we appear to be moving into live rounds territory.
That thing that nous talks about, with all the free-lance vigilante violence?
This is that.
WI had an active posse comitatus when I was growing up there and its stealth racism goes deep.
Trump is now sending federal law enforcement there.
I predict: Trump’s ratings go up there; the feds spend all their time protecting property and beating on angry and despairing blacks; the boogaloo crowd fades into the countryside and posts “play stupid games, win stupid prizes” memes over pics of the dead protesters.
That’s not the science fiction mode, that’s just straight-up extrapolation.
Might be a good time for Kamala Harris to pay a visit to Kenosha.
Might be a good time for Kamala Harris to pay a visit to Kenosha.
Does what is shown in the link below (taken from an article in Reason) give anyone here a problem? The people being harangued appear to be refusing to raise their fists in support of BLM.
https://twitter.com/rawsmedia/status/1298055028213678082
Does what is shown in the link below (taken from an article in Reason) give anyone here a problem? The people being harangued appear to be refusing to raise their fists in support of BLM.
https://twitter.com/rawsmedia/status/1298055028213678082
I predict: Trump’s ratings go up there
Highly likely, IMO.
Just total freaking unreasoning madness.
I predict: Trump’s ratings go up there
Highly likely, IMO.
Just total freaking unreasoning madness.
Just total freaking unreasoning madness.
Y’all underestimate how pissed off people get when they see that kind of wanton destruction and no one appears to be doing anything about it. The lack of effective response is associated with Democratic activists, mayors and governors.
People will defend their property. Tell them they can’t and re-elect DT.
I suspect, as a matter of electoral expediency, you will hear more from JB and KH in the next several days that sounds a lot harder on protesters than anything you’ve heard before. The rioting is free political advertising for DT.
Just total freaking unreasoning madness.
Y’all underestimate how pissed off people get when they see that kind of wanton destruction and no one appears to be doing anything about it. The lack of effective response is associated with Democratic activists, mayors and governors.
People will defend their property. Tell them they can’t and re-elect DT.
I suspect, as a matter of electoral expediency, you will hear more from JB and KH in the next several days that sounds a lot harder on protesters than anything you’ve heard before. The rioting is free political advertising for DT.
Does what is shown in the link below (taken from an article in Reason) give anyone here a problem?
I definitely have a problem with it. For two reasons:
1) I dislike attempts to coerce people into endorsing something that they do not believe in. Or even (as I believe was the case with a couple of these folks) things that they believe in, but they do not wish to make a particular gesture.
2) I dislike the stupidity of someone trying to use coercion to build support for their position. Counterproductive barely begins to describe it.
Does what is shown in the link below (taken from an article in Reason) give anyone here a problem?
I definitely have a problem with it. For two reasons:
1) I dislike attempts to coerce people into endorsing something that they do not believe in. Or even (as I believe was the case with a couple of these folks) things that they believe in, but they do not wish to make a particular gesture.
2) I dislike the stupidity of someone trying to use coercion to build support for their position. Counterproductive barely begins to describe it.
Does what is shown in the link below (taken from an article in Reason) give anyone here a problem?
I’m basically on board with wj.
Notably, nobody shot anybody. So it bothers me a hell of a lot less than the other news of the day.
People will defend their property.
Whose property was Rittenhouse defending when he was running down the street with an AR-15?
If you want to defend your property, fine. Stay on your damned property and defend it.
This kid didn’t even live in WI.
Does what is shown in the link below (taken from an article in Reason) give anyone here a problem?
I’m basically on board with wj.
Notably, nobody shot anybody. So it bothers me a hell of a lot less than the other news of the day.
People will defend their property.
Whose property was Rittenhouse defending when he was running down the street with an AR-15?
If you want to defend your property, fine. Stay on your damned property and defend it.
This kid didn’t even live in WI.
The lack of effective response is associated with Democratic activists, mayors and governors.
What does effective response look like?
Ferguson?
The feds in Portland?
People are pissed off about a lot of things. “Defending their property” does not even begin to cover it.
The lack of effective response is associated with Democratic activists, mayors and governors.
What does effective response look like?
Ferguson?
The feds in Portland?
People are pissed off about a lot of things. “Defending their property” does not even begin to cover it.
Notably, nobody shot anybody. So it bothers me a hell of a lot less than the other news of the day.
Nor beaten up, at least this time. But that can change. There are a lot of places where someone getting in someone else’s face like that can find themselves headed to the hospital. If one or two people are confronted by a hostile crowd making ridiculous and threatening demands, the crowd is asking for a trouble. I can assure you, particularly at my age, if I were sitting with my wife and was confronted by people acting in that manner, I would be furious and very apprehensive. My wife would be terrified.
If you want to defend your property, fine. Stay on your damned property and defend it.
I’m not sure I–or a lot of other people–would agree with you. I don’t know who or what that particular shooter had in mind, but I could certainly see me and my neighbors not allowing rioters to enter out neighborhood without taking casualties.
Notably, nobody shot anybody. So it bothers me a hell of a lot less than the other news of the day.
Nor beaten up, at least this time. But that can change. There are a lot of places where someone getting in someone else’s face like that can find themselves headed to the hospital. If one or two people are confronted by a hostile crowd making ridiculous and threatening demands, the crowd is asking for a trouble. I can assure you, particularly at my age, if I were sitting with my wife and was confronted by people acting in that manner, I would be furious and very apprehensive. My wife would be terrified.
If you want to defend your property, fine. Stay on your damned property and defend it.
I’m not sure I–or a lot of other people–would agree with you. I don’t know who or what that particular shooter had in mind, but I could certainly see me and my neighbors not allowing rioters to enter out neighborhood without taking casualties.
People will defend their property. Tell them they can’t and re-elect DT.
The advocating in the Democratic Convention for more gun restrictions may have been a misstep. In recent months there has been a big uptick in first-time gun purchases. And a big proportion of those has been by Democratic voters.
“But the world is changing. According to the NSSF, “40 percent of first-time gun buyers in the first four months of 2020 were female. The main purchase driver among the group was personal protection, followed by target shooting and hunting.”
African-Americans, who are often unfairly targeted by law enforcement and have vocally protested such treatment, are stocking on up on tools to defend themselves, too.
“The highest overall firearm sales increase comes from Black men and women who show a 58.2 percent increase in purchases during the first six months of 2020 versus the same period last year,” the NSSF noted in July.
Black Americans have armed themselves to push back against police, to put racists on notice, and to protect their homes and businesses.”
The Politics of Guns Are Changing. Politicians Need To Catch Up.: Millions of new firearm owners who have lost faith in cops and government will be a tough audience for shopworn gun control schemes.
People will defend their property. Tell them they can’t and re-elect DT.
The advocating in the Democratic Convention for more gun restrictions may have been a misstep. In recent months there has been a big uptick in first-time gun purchases. And a big proportion of those has been by Democratic voters.
“But the world is changing. According to the NSSF, “40 percent of first-time gun buyers in the first four months of 2020 were female. The main purchase driver among the group was personal protection, followed by target shooting and hunting.”
African-Americans, who are often unfairly targeted by law enforcement and have vocally protested such treatment, are stocking on up on tools to defend themselves, too.
“The highest overall firearm sales increase comes from Black men and women who show a 58.2 percent increase in purchases during the first six months of 2020 versus the same period last year,” the NSSF noted in July.
Black Americans have armed themselves to push back against police, to put racists on notice, and to protect their homes and businesses.”
The Politics of Guns Are Changing. Politicians Need To Catch Up.: Millions of new firearm owners who have lost faith in cops and government will be a tough audience for shopworn gun control schemes.
But that can change.
When it changes, it will bother me more.
I’m sure it’s disturbing to have a bunch of people yelling at you. Or, you know, just yelling. Actually, I know it is, from my own experience.
Some things bother me more than other things. This bothers me less than some other things.
YMMV.
I could certainly see me and my neighbors not allowing rioters to enter out neighborhood without taking casualties.
Were the people shot rioting?
Who gets to pick who the peaceful protestors are, and who the rioters are?
Do “you and your neighbors” include free-lance 17-year-old wanna-be cops from out of state?
What makes you think you can control the violence of vigilantes any more than you can control the violence of rioters?
What do you think the end-game of this crap looks like?
But that can change.
When it changes, it will bother me more.
I’m sure it’s disturbing to have a bunch of people yelling at you. Or, you know, just yelling. Actually, I know it is, from my own experience.
Some things bother me more than other things. This bothers me less than some other things.
YMMV.
I could certainly see me and my neighbors not allowing rioters to enter out neighborhood without taking casualties.
Were the people shot rioting?
Who gets to pick who the peaceful protestors are, and who the rioters are?
Do “you and your neighbors” include free-lance 17-year-old wanna-be cops from out of state?
What makes you think you can control the violence of vigilantes any more than you can control the violence of rioters?
What do you think the end-game of this crap looks like?
Do I think those activists are being foolish and counterproductive? Yes.
But I suspect that might not be enough to fulfill the unspoken criteria of “having a problem with it.”
What are we to do about such a thing?
And will the attempts to get these activists to stop hazing bystanders be any more effective or any less coercive than what they are doing?
I see this sort of stuff all the time on a big university campus from a full gamut of student groups with causes. Have done so ever since I first stepped onto a campus thirty-some years ago. The groups don’t change. People move in and out of the groups as their attitudes about this sort of activism changes, the fashion du jour changes but the groups and their cultures persist.
The only think I have found that changes this sort of thing (other than individual self-reflection) is an honest and empathetic conversation with the activist that the activist initiates themself from a position of trust.
So that’s what I’m going to do. I’m going to stay engaged and do my best to be a good and honest listener who is worthy of trust.
Do you have a problem with that?
Do I think those activists are being foolish and counterproductive? Yes.
But I suspect that might not be enough to fulfill the unspoken criteria of “having a problem with it.”
What are we to do about such a thing?
And will the attempts to get these activists to stop hazing bystanders be any more effective or any less coercive than what they are doing?
I see this sort of stuff all the time on a big university campus from a full gamut of student groups with causes. Have done so ever since I first stepped onto a campus thirty-some years ago. The groups don’t change. People move in and out of the groups as their attitudes about this sort of activism changes, the fashion du jour changes but the groups and their cultures persist.
The only think I have found that changes this sort of thing (other than individual self-reflection) is an honest and empathetic conversation with the activist that the activist initiates themself from a position of trust.
So that’s what I’m going to do. I’m going to stay engaged and do my best to be a good and honest listener who is worthy of trust.
Do you have a problem with that?
Black Americans have armed themselves to push back against police, to put racists on notice, and to protect their homes and businesses.”
It will be interesting to see if (a) black people bearing arms to defend themselves – especially against police – becomes a more visible phenomenon, and (b) if that changes conservative attitudes toward gun regulation.
It’s been just over 50 years since Reagan signed the Mulford Act in response to Black Panthers openly carrying. This could be an interesting test case in seeing how far we’ve come in the direction of being “color-blind”.
Black Americans have armed themselves to push back against police, to put racists on notice, and to protect their homes and businesses.”
It will be interesting to see if (a) black people bearing arms to defend themselves – especially against police – becomes a more visible phenomenon, and (b) if that changes conservative attitudes toward gun regulation.
It’s been just over 50 years since Reagan signed the Mulford Act in response to Black Panthers openly carrying. This could be an interesting test case in seeing how far we’ve come in the direction of being “color-blind”.
Louisville KY, back in July. The same crew showed up at Stone Mountain GA on the 4th of July. 1,000 of them, approximately.
The Fox News account. The comments are amusing.
2nd Amendment solutions, here we come.
Louisville KY, back in July. The same crew showed up at Stone Mountain GA on the 4th of July. 1,000 of them, approximately.
The Fox News account. The comments are amusing.
2nd Amendment solutions, here we come.
“Do you have a problem with that?”
If I’m sitting and having lunch absolutely. I want a cop called and them arrested for assault. You can have any fucking conversation you want with them once they are in custody.
Barring a cop arriving im not taking that shit. So I’d probably get in trouble.
“Do you have a problem with that?”
If I’m sitting and having lunch absolutely. I want a cop called and them arrested for assault. You can have any fucking conversation you want with them once they are in custody.
Barring a cop arriving im not taking that shit. So I’d probably get in trouble.
What do you think the end-game of this crap looks like?
I think it looks like widespread civil unrest. I cannot know, you cannot know, what someone is going to do until they do it. When large crowds of people act violently and destroy property on a wide scale and the authorities fail to act, others will fill that void, even if they lack the skill and training to do so.
The only think I have found that changes this sort of thing (other than individual self-reflection) is an honest and empathetic conversation with the activist that the activist initiates themself from a position of trust.
So that’s what I’m going to do. I’m going to stay engaged and do my best to be a good and honest listener who is worthy of trust.
Do you have a problem with that?
I don’t have a problem with anything anyone does voluntarily. Your agreement to sit and listen to someone is not comparable to someone being screamed at while trying to have a meal. Nor does behavior like that earn someone the right to a fair and open hearing. Act like an ass, get treated like an ass, whether you’re hectoring on behalf of BLM or in front of an abortion clinic.
It will be interesting to see if (a) black people bearing arms to defend themselves – especially against police – becomes a more visible phenomenon, and (b) if that changes conservative attitudes toward gun regulation.
I’ve never supported open carry, for a variety of reasons, including my statement above to the effect that you don’t know what someone is going to do until they do it. I have a right to carry a baseball bat, but if 30 BLM’s carrying bats and 30 Proud Boys carrying bats are moving toward each other, the right to carry is defeasing (a new word perhaps?) because the context is an obvious threat of imminent violence. If this is true for baseball bats, it is orders of magnitude truer for firearms.
I suspect that most white open carriers assume their right is tied to skin color, not having thought through the implications–from their demented viewpoint–of non-whites having the same rights. Imagine a bunch of white guys with guns trying to march through a black neighborhood, or vice versa. It’s intended to be a threat and it would be taken as a threat.
If someone was walking down my street armed–regardless of pigmentation–I’d get my own gun and call the police. The right to own and travel with a firearm is a constitutional right. That does not extend to carrying/displaying a loaded weapon in public and all the more so when a bunch of clowns show up tricked out in camo and combat gear.
What do you think the end-game of this crap looks like?
I think it looks like widespread civil unrest. I cannot know, you cannot know, what someone is going to do until they do it. When large crowds of people act violently and destroy property on a wide scale and the authorities fail to act, others will fill that void, even if they lack the skill and training to do so.
The only think I have found that changes this sort of thing (other than individual self-reflection) is an honest and empathetic conversation with the activist that the activist initiates themself from a position of trust.
So that’s what I’m going to do. I’m going to stay engaged and do my best to be a good and honest listener who is worthy of trust.
Do you have a problem with that?
I don’t have a problem with anything anyone does voluntarily. Your agreement to sit and listen to someone is not comparable to someone being screamed at while trying to have a meal. Nor does behavior like that earn someone the right to a fair and open hearing. Act like an ass, get treated like an ass, whether you’re hectoring on behalf of BLM or in front of an abortion clinic.
It will be interesting to see if (a) black people bearing arms to defend themselves – especially against police – becomes a more visible phenomenon, and (b) if that changes conservative attitudes toward gun regulation.
I’ve never supported open carry, for a variety of reasons, including my statement above to the effect that you don’t know what someone is going to do until they do it. I have a right to carry a baseball bat, but if 30 BLM’s carrying bats and 30 Proud Boys carrying bats are moving toward each other, the right to carry is defeasing (a new word perhaps?) because the context is an obvious threat of imminent violence. If this is true for baseball bats, it is orders of magnitude truer for firearms.
I suspect that most white open carriers assume their right is tied to skin color, not having thought through the implications–from their demented viewpoint–of non-whites having the same rights. Imagine a bunch of white guys with guns trying to march through a black neighborhood, or vice versa. It’s intended to be a threat and it would be taken as a threat.
If someone was walking down my street armed–regardless of pigmentation–I’d get my own gun and call the police. The right to own and travel with a firearm is a constitutional right. That does not extend to carrying/displaying a loaded weapon in public and all the more so when a bunch of clowns show up tricked out in camo and combat gear.
I think it looks like widespread civil unrest.
That is correct.
if 30 BLM’s carrying bats and 30 Proud Boys carrying bats are moving toward each other, the right to carry is defeasing (a new word perhaps?) because the context is an obvious threat of imminent violence. If this is true for baseball bats, it is orders of magnitude truer for firearms.
Two things.
1. If you look high and low from now until doomsday, I suspect you will be hard pressed to find 30 BLM protestors carrying bats. The folks in my cite are from a different organization altogether, from which BLM distances itself.
Just a point of fact.
BLM: not violent, not Marxist, not anarchist. They want people to stop shooting black people.
2. I’d say that 30 [insert organized group of armed dudes here] openly carrying firearms in public is defeasing, whether they are moving toward any other [insert organized group of armed dudes here] or not.
I suspect we’re in agreement there.
I think it looks like widespread civil unrest.
That is correct.
if 30 BLM’s carrying bats and 30 Proud Boys carrying bats are moving toward each other, the right to carry is defeasing (a new word perhaps?) because the context is an obvious threat of imminent violence. If this is true for baseball bats, it is orders of magnitude truer for firearms.
Two things.
1. If you look high and low from now until doomsday, I suspect you will be hard pressed to find 30 BLM protestors carrying bats. The folks in my cite are from a different organization altogether, from which BLM distances itself.
Just a point of fact.
BLM: not violent, not Marxist, not anarchist. They want people to stop shooting black people.
2. I’d say that 30 [insert organized group of armed dudes here] openly carrying firearms in public is defeasing, whether they are moving toward any other [insert organized group of armed dudes here] or not.
I suspect we’re in agreement there.
There are a lot of places where someone getting in someone else’s face like that can find themselves headed to the hospital. If one or two people are confronted by a hostile crowd making ridiculous and threatening demands, the crowd is asking for a trouble. I can assure you, particularly at my age, if I were sitting with my wife and was confronted by people acting in that manner, I would be furious and very apprehensive. My wife would be terrified.
I understand this sentiment. I recognize this sentiment from my own experience of having anger aimed at me by strangers. It’s terrifying.
I’ve also read accounts of this same feeling from many of my students – of feeling helpless while their life was held in someone else’s hands.
They were black or hispanic students from the hood describing being pulled over for a routine stop after being profiled.
Same feelings.
I cannot know, you cannot know, what someone is going to do until they do it.
Except the presence that you and Marty would call to relieve your situation is the presence that occasions that feeling in those students of mine *every time.*
Do you understand why that is?
Do you have a problem with that?
There are a lot of places where someone getting in someone else’s face like that can find themselves headed to the hospital. If one or two people are confronted by a hostile crowd making ridiculous and threatening demands, the crowd is asking for a trouble. I can assure you, particularly at my age, if I were sitting with my wife and was confronted by people acting in that manner, I would be furious and very apprehensive. My wife would be terrified.
I understand this sentiment. I recognize this sentiment from my own experience of having anger aimed at me by strangers. It’s terrifying.
I’ve also read accounts of this same feeling from many of my students – of feeling helpless while their life was held in someone else’s hands.
They were black or hispanic students from the hood describing being pulled over for a routine stop after being profiled.
Same feelings.
I cannot know, you cannot know, what someone is going to do until they do it.
Except the presence that you and Marty would call to relieve your situation is the presence that occasions that feeling in those students of mine *every time.*
Do you understand why that is?
Do you have a problem with that?
BLM: not violent, not Marxist, not anarchist. They want people to stop shooting black people.
BLM was founded by Marxists. Plenty of violence is committed in the name and on behalf of BLM.
Except the presence that you and Marty would call to relieve your situation is the presence that occasions that feeling in those students of mine *every time.*
Do you understand why that is?
Do you have a problem with that?
Since I have a lot of black and Hispanic friends and acquaintances who are police, and many more who have been stopped by police without incident, I’m going to say, first, that being profiled and stopped is a product of particular venues and law enforcement attitudes in those venues. The particulars of a stop vary. I’m familiar with pretty horrific reports, but those are rare. I’m familiar with made-up reports as well. Those are rare, but exaggerated reports are not. They are the norm, unfortunately. But, for a person who is obeying the law to be singled out for any reason by law enforcement and then subjected to any kind of abuse or mistreatment is beyond the pale and would induce any number of unpleasant to experience reactions.
BTW, there is no such thing as a “routine” stop. The police cannot–legally–stop people just for the hell of it. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, and I agree that it happens to young black and Hispanic males disproportionately, the flip side being that young black and Hispanic males commit an outsize amount of crime. I’m also fairly sure that white officers, as a group, tend to cut white traffic offenders loose with greater frequency than they do black or Hispanic offenders. I suspect this is driven, consciously in some and less than consciously in others, by those two demographics outsize contribution to crime stats and the fact that many people cannot get past skin color and have a bias in favor of their own which does not extend to others. Many here would call that racism. I don’t because it’s more along the lines of human nature, just not the best side of human nature.
It’s complicated and difficult to sort out in many respects, but ultimately it is on law enforcement to clean up its act. Even with the outsize contribution, the number of young black or Hispanic males who commit crimes–or are accused of committing crimes–is less than a percentage of either demographic. No one who believes in traditional liberal values can accept any innocent person being waylaid by the state for any arbitrary reason, and color or religion would be tied for first among what would be the worst reasons for doing so.
BLM: not violent, not Marxist, not anarchist. They want people to stop shooting black people.
BLM was founded by Marxists. Plenty of violence is committed in the name and on behalf of BLM.
Except the presence that you and Marty would call to relieve your situation is the presence that occasions that feeling in those students of mine *every time.*
Do you understand why that is?
Do you have a problem with that?
Since I have a lot of black and Hispanic friends and acquaintances who are police, and many more who have been stopped by police without incident, I’m going to say, first, that being profiled and stopped is a product of particular venues and law enforcement attitudes in those venues. The particulars of a stop vary. I’m familiar with pretty horrific reports, but those are rare. I’m familiar with made-up reports as well. Those are rare, but exaggerated reports are not. They are the norm, unfortunately. But, for a person who is obeying the law to be singled out for any reason by law enforcement and then subjected to any kind of abuse or mistreatment is beyond the pale and would induce any number of unpleasant to experience reactions.
BTW, there is no such thing as a “routine” stop. The police cannot–legally–stop people just for the hell of it. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, and I agree that it happens to young black and Hispanic males disproportionately, the flip side being that young black and Hispanic males commit an outsize amount of crime. I’m also fairly sure that white officers, as a group, tend to cut white traffic offenders loose with greater frequency than they do black or Hispanic offenders. I suspect this is driven, consciously in some and less than consciously in others, by those two demographics outsize contribution to crime stats and the fact that many people cannot get past skin color and have a bias in favor of their own which does not extend to others. Many here would call that racism. I don’t because it’s more along the lines of human nature, just not the best side of human nature.
It’s complicated and difficult to sort out in many respects, but ultimately it is on law enforcement to clean up its act. Even with the outsize contribution, the number of young black or Hispanic males who commit crimes–or are accused of committing crimes–is less than a percentage of either demographic. No one who believes in traditional liberal values can accept any innocent person being waylaid by the state for any arbitrary reason, and color or religion would be tied for first among what would be the worst reasons for doing so.
We’ve invented dozens of pretexts for pulling people over, all of which get used more frequently to pull over people like those students of mine disproportionately.
But that’s not the question I’m most interested in.
I want to know, would you feel any different than they do if you were in their shoes facing those same circumstances?
Not a damn thing is going to change until someone with the power to change anything puts themselves inside that moment of terror.
We’ve invented dozens of pretexts for pulling people over, all of which get used more frequently to pull over people like those students of mine disproportionately.
But that’s not the question I’m most interested in.
I want to know, would you feel any different than they do if you were in their shoes facing those same circumstances?
Not a damn thing is going to change until someone with the power to change anything puts themselves inside that moment of terror.
BLM was founded by Marxists. Plenty of violence is committed in the name and on behalf of BLM.
And your party is lead by an incest curious fraud. Clean your own yard.
BLM was founded by Marxists. Plenty of violence is committed in the name and on behalf of BLM.
And your party is lead by an incest curious fraud. Clean your own yard.
It’s not his party, as he has told us many times. But that doesn’t stop him being pretty annoying a lot of the time, yet having a reasonably nuanced attitude some of the rest of the time. People are complicated. The stats on black gun procurement are a) understandable, and b) alarming, given the prospect of armed crowds facing off against each other. And if the crowds are easily distinguishable by colour, I think we know which side “law enforcement” will be on.
It’s not his party, as he has told us many times. But that doesn’t stop him being pretty annoying a lot of the time, yet having a reasonably nuanced attitude some of the rest of the time. People are complicated. The stats on black gun procurement are a) understandable, and b) alarming, given the prospect of armed crowds facing off against each other. And if the crowds are easily distinguishable by colour, I think we know which side “law enforcement” will be on.
Who’s property was Kyle Rittenhouse protecting?
Who’s property was Kyle Rittenhouse protecting?
Some of the BLM founders view the world through marxist paradigms. At the same time, though, there is nothing expressly or implicitly anti-capitalist in BLMs organizational goals.
Does having a founder who is Christian and motivated by Christian principles automatically make an organization Christian?
Some of the BLM founders view the world through marxist paradigms. At the same time, though, there is nothing expressly or implicitly anti-capitalist in BLMs organizational goals.
Does having a founder who is Christian and motivated by Christian principles automatically make an organization Christian?
I want to know, would you feel any different than they do if you were in their shoes facing those same circumstances?
Good question, and of course he wouldn’t. Because every black parent has to have “the talk” with their kids, while they are still very young. And once you’ve been given “the talk” (be polite, be respectful, do what you’re told, don’t challenge or be hostile no matter what they say to you) how else are you going to feel? You know that you could be shot under any (or no) pretext, and nothing whatsoever would happen to the person who did it.
Not a damn thing is going to change until someone with the power to change anything puts themselves inside that moment of terror.
True. And when will that be, even in the event of a Biden/Harris victory?
I want to know, would you feel any different than they do if you were in their shoes facing those same circumstances?
Good question, and of course he wouldn’t. Because every black parent has to have “the talk” with their kids, while they are still very young. And once you’ve been given “the talk” (be polite, be respectful, do what you’re told, don’t challenge or be hostile no matter what they say to you) how else are you going to feel? You know that you could be shot under any (or no) pretext, and nothing whatsoever would happen to the person who did it.
Not a damn thing is going to change until someone with the power to change anything puts themselves inside that moment of terror.
True. And when will that be, even in the event of a Biden/Harris victory?
nous, I understand what you are saying, its bs. I’ve been pulled over, verbally abused, searched. My car searched, I was as likely to get beaten as the next guy if I looked the wrong way. Poor neighborhoods are like that. But if I need a cop I call one.
That isn’t the same as someone getting in your face screaming at you in a restaurant. Its not an excuse. Its assault.
nous, I understand what you are saying, its bs. I’ve been pulled over, verbally abused, searched. My car searched, I was as likely to get beaten as the next guy if I looked the wrong way. Poor neighborhoods are like that. But if I need a cop I call one.
That isn’t the same as someone getting in your face screaming at you in a restaurant. Its not an excuse. Its assault.
I want to know, would you feel any different than they do if you were in their shoes facing those same circumstances?
I’d need to know what those “circumstances” are. Arrest? A beating? Getting a ticket? Was the person arrested/stopped without cause? Are you saying that being stopped by police, nothing more, induces terror? If so, that’s just a gross over-reaction. I’m not losing sleep over that. Show me disparate treatment, and I’m right there with you.
Not a damn thing is going to change until someone with the power to change anything puts themselves inside that moment of terror.
This is nonsense. Anyone with a sense of history knows that there has already been huge amounts of change. The one salient change needed is addressing police/community relations on an as-needed basis. If you think there have not been changes in policing–for the better–over the last 50 years, you are simply wrong. Houston is a perfect example. Google Jose Campos Torres. That was then. Forty plus years later, HPD’s police chief is Hispanic.
I want to know, would you feel any different than they do if you were in their shoes facing those same circumstances?
I’d need to know what those “circumstances” are. Arrest? A beating? Getting a ticket? Was the person arrested/stopped without cause? Are you saying that being stopped by police, nothing more, induces terror? If so, that’s just a gross over-reaction. I’m not losing sleep over that. Show me disparate treatment, and I’m right there with you.
Not a damn thing is going to change until someone with the power to change anything puts themselves inside that moment of terror.
This is nonsense. Anyone with a sense of history knows that there has already been huge amounts of change. The one salient change needed is addressing police/community relations on an as-needed basis. If you think there have not been changes in policing–for the better–over the last 50 years, you are simply wrong. Houston is a perfect example. Google Jose Campos Torres. That was then. Forty plus years later, HPD’s police chief is Hispanic.
BLM was founded by Marxists.
As it turns out, two of the three founders are Marxists. I didn’t know that. Live and learn.
FWIW, my opinion of BLM is basically unchanged by discovering this.
Plenty of violence is committed in the name and on behalf of BLM.
“In the name of and on behalf of” covers a lot of ground.
In the interest of fact-checking myself, after I wrote the comment upthread I went and looked up whatever I could find on BLM and violence.
It took some doing, because the number of cases of BLM protestors being met by folks bearing arms and/or being violently attacked, including being run over, are truly numerous.
So:
There was, famously, the guy in Arkansas with the flame-thrower. And TBH, my comment about that guy is basically “well played”.
And BLM in some places has begun arming some of their own people in self-defense, in response to being run over and otherwise violently attacked. Which I neither recommend nor necessarily find wise, but also find understandable.
In any case, I stand corrected. BLM was founded by Marxists, and in some contexts they have armed themselves as a counter to violent attacks.
As far as what BLM wants, they want cops to stop shooting black people.
BLM was founded by Marxists.
As it turns out, two of the three founders are Marxists. I didn’t know that. Live and learn.
FWIW, my opinion of BLM is basically unchanged by discovering this.
Plenty of violence is committed in the name and on behalf of BLM.
“In the name of and on behalf of” covers a lot of ground.
In the interest of fact-checking myself, after I wrote the comment upthread I went and looked up whatever I could find on BLM and violence.
It took some doing, because the number of cases of BLM protestors being met by folks bearing arms and/or being violently attacked, including being run over, are truly numerous.
So:
There was, famously, the guy in Arkansas with the flame-thrower. And TBH, my comment about that guy is basically “well played”.
And BLM in some places has begun arming some of their own people in self-defense, in response to being run over and otherwise violently attacked. Which I neither recommend nor necessarily find wise, but also find understandable.
In any case, I stand corrected. BLM was founded by Marxists, and in some contexts they have armed themselves as a counter to violent attacks.
As far as what BLM wants, they want cops to stop shooting black people.
Some of the BLM founders view the world through marxist paradigms.
Like I said, it was founded by Marxists. Marxists are inherently, explicitly dictatorial. Lefties have a soft spot for Marxism. They have a soft spot for authoritarianism too. As long as its left wing authoritarianism. So, I don’t buy their BS.
Some of the BLM founders view the world through marxist paradigms.
Like I said, it was founded by Marxists. Marxists are inherently, explicitly dictatorial. Lefties have a soft spot for Marxism. They have a soft spot for authoritarianism too. As long as its left wing authoritarianism. So, I don’t buy their BS.
No one who believes in traditional liberal values can accept any innocent person being waylaid by the state for any arbitrary reason, and color or religion would be tied for first among what would be the worst reasons for doing so.
Thank you.
No one who believes in traditional liberal values can accept any innocent person being waylaid by the state for any arbitrary reason, and color or religion would be tied for first among what would be the worst reasons for doing so.
Thank you.
Marxists are inherently, explicitly dictatorial.
Stalin was a Marxist.
Theodor Adorno, author of “The Authoritarian Personality”, was a Marxist.
Art critic John Berger was a Marxist.
So, no. Marxists are not inherently and explicitly dictatorial.
Marxists are inherently, explicitly dictatorial.
Stalin was a Marxist.
Theodor Adorno, author of “The Authoritarian Personality”, was a Marxist.
Art critic John Berger was a Marxist.
So, no. Marxists are not inherently and explicitly dictatorial.
They [lefties] have a soft spot for authoritarianism too. As long as its left wing authoritarianism.
Of course you realize you could equally well, and equally accurately, have written:
They (righties) have a soft spot for authoritarianism too. As long as it’s right wing authoritarianism.
In fact, the evidence there is, at least in Western countries, rather stronger.
They [lefties] have a soft spot for authoritarianism too. As long as its left wing authoritarianism.
Of course you realize you could equally well, and equally accurately, have written:
They (righties) have a soft spot for authoritarianism too. As long as it’s right wing authoritarianism.
In fact, the evidence there is, at least in Western countries, rather stronger.
I haven’t read this book but my impression is that it has some interesting, and perhaps very meaningful, things to say about the points made about race and class in this and earlier threads.
“Beyond race, class, or other factors, there is a powerful caste system that influences people’s lives and behavior and the nation’s fate. Linking the caste systems of America, India, and Nazi Germany, Wilkerson explores eight pillars that underlie caste systems across civilizations, including divine will, bloodlines, stigma, and more. Using riveting stories about people—including Martin Luther King, Jr., baseball’s Satchel Paige, a single father and his toddler son, Wilkerson herself, and many others—she shows the ways that the insidious undertow of caste is experienced every day. She documents how the Nazis studied the racial systems in America to plan their out-cast of the Jews; she discusses why the cruel logic of caste requires that there be a bottom rung for those in the middle to measure themselves against; she writes about the surprising health costs of caste, in depression and life expectancy, and the effects of this hierarchy on our culture and politics. Finally, she points forward to ways America can move beyond the artificial and destructive separations of human divisions, toward hope in our common humanity.”
Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents
A podcast discussion with the author about the book.
I haven’t read this book but my impression is that it has some interesting, and perhaps very meaningful, things to say about the points made about race and class in this and earlier threads.
“Beyond race, class, or other factors, there is a powerful caste system that influences people’s lives and behavior and the nation’s fate. Linking the caste systems of America, India, and Nazi Germany, Wilkerson explores eight pillars that underlie caste systems across civilizations, including divine will, bloodlines, stigma, and more. Using riveting stories about people—including Martin Luther King, Jr., baseball’s Satchel Paige, a single father and his toddler son, Wilkerson herself, and many others—she shows the ways that the insidious undertow of caste is experienced every day. She documents how the Nazis studied the racial systems in America to plan their out-cast of the Jews; she discusses why the cruel logic of caste requires that there be a bottom rung for those in the middle to measure themselves against; she writes about the surprising health costs of caste, in depression and life expectancy, and the effects of this hierarchy on our culture and politics. Finally, she points forward to ways America can move beyond the artificial and destructive separations of human divisions, toward hope in our common humanity.”
Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents
A podcast discussion with the author about the book.
“Lefties have a soft spot for Marxism“
You’re a shitty mind reader.
“Lefties have a soft spot for Marxism“
You’re a shitty mind reader.
Why not demonstrate the authoritarianism or dictatorial tendencies of BLM? They’ve been around for a number of years and have gotten a good bit of media coverage. The should be lots of evidence available if it’s not just BS based solely on the Marxism of some of the founders.
Why not demonstrate the authoritarianism or dictatorial tendencies of BLM? They’ve been around for a number of years and have gotten a good bit of media coverage. The should be lots of evidence available if it’s not just BS based solely on the Marxism of some of the founders.
Don’t bite hooks
Don’t bite hooks
The different kinds of BLM.
“Many conservatives insist Black Lives Matter is a Marxist, anti-police, radical organization that wants to tear down America. Meanwhile, most liberals simply view Black Lives Matter as a heroic movement and powerful slogan signaling support for racial justice and opposition to police brutality.
Both are right. There is Black Lives Matter™️, and there is “black lives matter.””
Marxist? No and Yes.: What the left and the right are both getting wrong about Black Lives Matter.
The different kinds of BLM.
“Many conservatives insist Black Lives Matter is a Marxist, anti-police, radical organization that wants to tear down America. Meanwhile, most liberals simply view Black Lives Matter as a heroic movement and powerful slogan signaling support for racial justice and opposition to police brutality.
Both are right. There is Black Lives Matter™️, and there is “black lives matter.””
Marxist? No and Yes.: What the left and the right are both getting wrong about Black Lives Matter.
Are you saying that being stopped by police, nothing more, induces terror? If so, that’s just a gross over-reaction.
No comment necessary, I would say.
Are you saying that being stopped by police, nothing more, induces terror? If so, that’s just a gross over-reaction.
No comment necessary, I would say.
Marxism is just the current excuse for old conservative white people to keep ignoring the problem. There’s always an excuse. They’re as predictable as they are deplorable.
Marxism is just the current excuse for old conservative white people to keep ignoring the problem. There’s always an excuse. They’re as predictable as they are deplorable.
They (righties) have a soft spot for authoritarianism too. As long as it’s right wing authoritarianism.
In fact, the evidence there is, at least in Western countries, rather stronger.
I agree with the first sentence, DT being Ex. A. Second sentence, I’d need an example.
Why not demonstrate the authoritarianism or dictatorial tendencies of BLM? They’ve been around for a number of years and have gotten a good bit of media coverage. The should be lots of evidence available if it’s not just BS based solely on the Marxism of some of the founders.
I did that once, way back when, right here before they up’ed their marketing game. BLM’s original mission statement, if you can call it that, was much more explicitly authoritarian. But, if you want an example of BLM-type authoritarianism, read anything by Ibram X. Kendi. I will, going forward, make a point of documenting my position.
As for the name-callers and whoever, you make my case nearly every time. Sounding great to yourself is a six inch putt. No one ever misses those.
They (righties) have a soft spot for authoritarianism too. As long as it’s right wing authoritarianism.
In fact, the evidence there is, at least in Western countries, rather stronger.
I agree with the first sentence, DT being Ex. A. Second sentence, I’d need an example.
Why not demonstrate the authoritarianism or dictatorial tendencies of BLM? They’ve been around for a number of years and have gotten a good bit of media coverage. The should be lots of evidence available if it’s not just BS based solely on the Marxism of some of the founders.
I did that once, way back when, right here before they up’ed their marketing game. BLM’s original mission statement, if you can call it that, was much more explicitly authoritarian. But, if you want an example of BLM-type authoritarianism, read anything by Ibram X. Kendi. I will, going forward, make a point of documenting my position.
As for the name-callers and whoever, you make my case nearly every time. Sounding great to yourself is a six inch putt. No one ever misses those.
Marxists are not inherently and explicitly dictatorial.
Missed this one. Marxism can’t work without compelled subordination to the system. It’s definitional. There is no room for other, competing systems. That’s Marxism 101.
Marxists are not inherently and explicitly dictatorial.
Missed this one. Marxism can’t work without compelled subordination to the system. It’s definitional. There is no room for other, competing systems. That’s Marxism 101.
That 8:31 was me. I hit the wrong key.
That 8:31 was me. I hit the wrong key.
Second sentence, I’d need an example.
Take the last century. Europe and North America. Have we had any left wing authoritarian takeovers? On the other hand, definitely had some right wing ones — Germany, Italy, Spain.
Certainly elsewhere there have been left wing (at least nominally) authoritarians — Russia, China, Cambodia, North Korea, etc. But in the West? Not so far.
Second sentence, I’d need an example.
Take the last century. Europe and North America. Have we had any left wing authoritarian takeovers? On the other hand, definitely had some right wing ones — Germany, Italy, Spain.
Certainly elsewhere there have been left wing (at least nominally) authoritarians — Russia, China, Cambodia, North Korea, etc. But in the West? Not so far.
a six inch putt. No one ever misses those.
Sir, you underestimate me. ‘Cause I’ve done just that. 😉
a six inch putt. No one ever misses those.
Sir, you underestimate me. ‘Cause I’ve done just that. 😉
Speaking as “whoever”, McKinney if you think your case is made, you delude yourself. And not only about that, if you think we sound great to ourselves! Despite your stirring claim for “traditional liberal values” upthread, and your frequently (and obviously sincerely) stated dislike of racism, you show again and again how unable you are to put yourself in the shoes of an American of colour. The two sentences I quote at 7.47 are only the latest example of that complete inability. It shouldn’t be a surprise; I have noted over many years of observing the phenomenon that conservatives (even perfectly decent, well-intentioned ones like yourself) are incapable of certain kinds of imaginative leaps, until they experience the circumstances for themselves.
Speaking as “whoever”, McKinney if you think your case is made, you delude yourself. And not only about that, if you think we sound great to ourselves! Despite your stirring claim for “traditional liberal values” upthread, and your frequently (and obviously sincerely) stated dislike of racism, you show again and again how unable you are to put yourself in the shoes of an American of colour. The two sentences I quote at 7.47 are only the latest example of that complete inability. It shouldn’t be a surprise; I have noted over many years of observing the phenomenon that conservatives (even perfectly decent, well-intentioned ones like yourself) are incapable of certain kinds of imaginative leaps, until they experience the circumstances for themselves.
It’s definitional.
So you say.
It’s definitional.
So you say.
As for the name-callers and whoever, you make my case nearly every time. “
Lol. Always so upset about name calling, when other people do it.
As for the name-callers and whoever, you make my case nearly every time. “
Lol. Always so upset about name calling, when other people do it.
until they experience the circumstances for themselves.
In many cases, they never will. Therein lies the problem.
McKinney, I’m with you that things have changed since our childhood. Your law firm is diverse, and many people have African Americans as peers, colleagues and friends. But equality isn’t here yet, and police violence against people of color happens constantly. The separation of immigrant families, many of whom are refugees, is a human rights violation of the first order.
I don’t think you mean harm, McKinney, but you go way out of your way to avoid responsibility for this (not your own, but our society’s).
I’m trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but when you ignore the obvious disparities in our system of justice, from police to disparities in incarceration, it’s just plain that you’re not looking.
until they experience the circumstances for themselves.
In many cases, they never will. Therein lies the problem.
McKinney, I’m with you that things have changed since our childhood. Your law firm is diverse, and many people have African Americans as peers, colleagues and friends. But equality isn’t here yet, and police violence against people of color happens constantly. The separation of immigrant families, many of whom are refugees, is a human rights violation of the first order.
I don’t think you mean harm, McKinney, but you go way out of your way to avoid responsibility for this (not your own, but our society’s).
I’m trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but when you ignore the obvious disparities in our system of justice, from police to disparities in incarceration, it’s just plain that you’re not looking.
No comment necessary, I would say.“
Indeed
No comment necessary, I would say.“
Indeed
They [lefties] have a soft spot for authoritarianism too. As long as its left wing authoritarianism.
WJ, I was referring to US lefties having a soft spot for authoritarianism. And in a number of left wing quarters, that soft spot extends to marxism/socialism. The very common tendency on the left to ridicule conservatives who point out the left’s not-awesome willingness to accomodate/minimize/play ostrich with socialist mega-death is, IMO, simply projection by the left. I get a personal charge out of watching fan-boys of Danny Ortega or Fidelito wax indignant when someone points out the inherent, dictatorial nature of the men and their regimes. I also find the Cleek’s of this world, who cannot separate themselves from their party, completely laughable when they claim to have no time for Marxism, yet the second leading vote-getter in their ‘one truth’ party was a socialist. It’s really hard not to appreciate the palpable, unintentional self-beclowning. That said, I agree that the DT part of the right (and it’s a lot bigger than I would have thought four years ago) is also authoritarian. As racial divides appear more open at the extremes–and while the rest of us gag–you see complimentary forms of racism–white supremacy vs anti-racism, black-centric reparational pay-back (in many forms, including mandating outcome equality vs equality of opportunity).
Sorry about missing that putt. Focus on bringing the flat stick straight back and following through on a straight line along your chosen path. And keep your head down.
They [lefties] have a soft spot for authoritarianism too. As long as its left wing authoritarianism.
WJ, I was referring to US lefties having a soft spot for authoritarianism. And in a number of left wing quarters, that soft spot extends to marxism/socialism. The very common tendency on the left to ridicule conservatives who point out the left’s not-awesome willingness to accomodate/minimize/play ostrich with socialist mega-death is, IMO, simply projection by the left. I get a personal charge out of watching fan-boys of Danny Ortega or Fidelito wax indignant when someone points out the inherent, dictatorial nature of the men and their regimes. I also find the Cleek’s of this world, who cannot separate themselves from their party, completely laughable when they claim to have no time for Marxism, yet the second leading vote-getter in their ‘one truth’ party was a socialist. It’s really hard not to appreciate the palpable, unintentional self-beclowning. That said, I agree that the DT part of the right (and it’s a lot bigger than I would have thought four years ago) is also authoritarian. As racial divides appear more open at the extremes–and while the rest of us gag–you see complimentary forms of racism–white supremacy vs anti-racism, black-centric reparational pay-back (in many forms, including mandating outcome equality vs equality of opportunity).
Sorry about missing that putt. Focus on bringing the flat stick straight back and following through on a straight line along your chosen path. And keep your head down.
With those mind-reading abilities, McK, you must truly be mental.
With those mind-reading abilities, McK, you must truly be mental.
This is all very interesting. But here is the thing.
Cops shoot black people in proportionately greater numbers than they shoot white people.
That shouldn’t happen. But it does.
All the rest of the sturm und drang is interesting, but the reason tens and hudreds of thousands of people of all colors have taken to the streets is because they want cops to stop shooting black people in disproportionate numbers. Other people, too, not just cops.
There is no indication whatsoever that BLM wants to seize the means of production and issue forth a worker’s paradise. They give every indication of wanting cops – and others – to stop shooting black people.
Do you see some problem with that? I don’t.
I support that goal, so I support BLM. I don’t give a crap if their founders were Marxists.
This is all very interesting. But here is the thing.
Cops shoot black people in proportionately greater numbers than they shoot white people.
That shouldn’t happen. But it does.
All the rest of the sturm und drang is interesting, but the reason tens and hudreds of thousands of people of all colors have taken to the streets is because they want cops to stop shooting black people in disproportionate numbers. Other people, too, not just cops.
There is no indication whatsoever that BLM wants to seize the means of production and issue forth a worker’s paradise. They give every indication of wanting cops – and others – to stop shooting black people.
Do you see some problem with that? I don’t.
I support that goal, so I support BLM. I don’t give a crap if their founders were Marxists.
I disagree with Sanders about a great deal. And one of those point is whether he’s a socialist. Yeah, he says he’s one. But I’ve known some real socialists — and he is, at best, a very pale imitation. I’d guess that, if a true socialist tried to take over, Sanders would be manning the barricades to stop him. He is a, what is the phrase?, a champagne socialist.
I’ve dealt with the putting problem. It was a matter of overcorrection. I’d been missing putts and ending up further away than I started. So I actually managed to miss a 6″ put short. Go figure.
I disagree with Sanders about a great deal. And one of those point is whether he’s a socialist. Yeah, he says he’s one. But I’ve known some real socialists — and he is, at best, a very pale imitation. I’d guess that, if a true socialist tried to take over, Sanders would be manning the barricades to stop him. He is a, what is the phrase?, a champagne socialist.
I’ve dealt with the putting problem. It was a matter of overcorrection. I’d been missing putts and ending up further away than I started. So I actually managed to miss a 6″ put short. Go figure.
russell at 10:23: what he said.
russell at 10:23: what he said.
Socialism is public ownership and/or regulation of the means of production and distribution.
There is no nation on the face of the earth that is not a social and economic basket case that does not own and/or highly regulate the means of producing and distributing some significant part of their economic output.
Including us.
I’m not sure what the monster under the bed is, exactly, but it’s not socialism.
Maybe it would help if folks were specific about what it is they are afraid of.
Socialism is public ownership and/or regulation of the means of production and distribution.
There is no nation on the face of the earth that is not a social and economic basket case that does not own and/or highly regulate the means of producing and distributing some significant part of their economic output.
Including us.
I’m not sure what the monster under the bed is, exactly, but it’s not socialism.
Maybe it would help if folks were specific about what it is they are afraid of.
no nation on the face of the earth that is not a social and economic basket case
We’re a basket case. McKinney was first out of the gate blaming China for letting the virus spread. His own state is one of the worst in uncontrolled spread. The hurricane won’t help, I’m sure.
Quit blaming others, McKinney. Fix what you can with your vote.
no nation on the face of the earth that is not a social and economic basket case
We’re a basket case. McKinney was first out of the gate blaming China for letting the virus spread. His own state is one of the worst in uncontrolled spread. The hurricane won’t help, I’m sure.
Quit blaming others, McKinney. Fix what you can with your vote.
Socialism is public ownership and/or regulation of the means of production and distribution.
Ownership? Yes. But mere regulation isn’t socialism. The shrieks of the libertarians and plutocrats notwithstanding.
Not to say that regulation is necessarily a good thing. There have been some massively harmful ones. But neither is it an automatic evil. It’s just a tool; like a wrench or a chisel.
Socialism is public ownership and/or regulation of the means of production and distribution.
Ownership? Yes. But mere regulation isn’t socialism. The shrieks of the libertarians and plutocrats notwithstanding.
Not to say that regulation is necessarily a good thing. There have been some massively harmful ones. But neither is it an automatic evil. It’s just a tool; like a wrench or a chisel.
McKT: Like I said, it was founded by Marxists. Marxists are inherently, explicitly dictatorial. Lefties have a soft spot for Marxism. They have a soft spot for authoritarianism too. As long as its left wing authoritarianism.
Wikipedia: Marxism is a method of socioeconomic analysis that uses a materialist interpretation of historical development, better known as historical materialism, to understand class relations and social conflict…
No, Marxists are not inherently, still less explicitly, dictatorial. Marxism is a method of socioeconomic analysis. Here‘s a blog written by an avowed Marxist: I challenge you to find a dictatorial word in it.
McKT: Like I said, it was founded by Marxists. Marxists are inherently, explicitly dictatorial. Lefties have a soft spot for Marxism. They have a soft spot for authoritarianism too. As long as its left wing authoritarianism.
Wikipedia: Marxism is a method of socioeconomic analysis that uses a materialist interpretation of historical development, better known as historical materialism, to understand class relations and social conflict…
No, Marxists are not inherently, still less explicitly, dictatorial. Marxism is a method of socioeconomic analysis. Here‘s a blog written by an avowed Marxist: I challenge you to find a dictatorial word in it.
I have a soft spot for Marxism. I loathe authoritarianism
And all of us who hate authoritarianism should be doing everything we can to get Trump voted out of office, along with every one of his enablers in the Republican Party.
I have a soft spot for Marxism. I loathe authoritarianism
And all of us who hate authoritarianism should be doing everything we can to get Trump voted out of office, along with every one of his enablers in the Republican Party.
Ownership? Yes. But mere regulation isn’t socialism
Perhaps.
In most places in this country, and in most competent countries, there are some goods and services whose provision is managed by public actors. Availability, terms of service, price, all determined by public actors, rather than market forces.
In some cases, the means of production and distribution are publicly owned. In some cases, parts of of the supply chain are publicly owned, and some not. In some cases, all means are privately owned, but availability and price are set by the public.
Which part is socialism, and which mere regulation? Is the distinction important?
Specifically, does the distinction make a difference to my point?
Sometimes it makes sense for things to be provided through public means, rather than private contract and market forces. Virtually everyone is fine with that – including public ownership, when that makes sense – as long as you don’t call it socialism.
So I’m calling on people who use the word socialism as if it’s a synonym for the end of the world as we know it to be more specific about what it is they’re afraid of.
“The left” does not have a secret agenda to send people off to gulags and re-education camps. “The left” doesn’t want to “destroy America”.
“The left” wants stuff like affordable health care, and in contrast to “the right” doesn’t see free markets making it happen.
For example.
Maybe “the left” is right about that, maybe they’re not. But let’s talk about that, rather than commies under the bed BS.
BLM wants people, and especially cops, to stop shooting black people. That’s what they are about. That is what all of the remarkably broad cross section of people who are members of BLM – whatever that means – and/or support BLM have in common.
I work for a company which is majority owned by Vista Equity, whose CEO and principal owner is Robert E Smith. Who is black. And a billionaire. And who supports BLM.
The fact that two of the founders of BLM are Marxist – whatever that means – is irrelevant to the goal of fewer black people getting shot.
It seems to me.
Ownership? Yes. But mere regulation isn’t socialism
Perhaps.
In most places in this country, and in most competent countries, there are some goods and services whose provision is managed by public actors. Availability, terms of service, price, all determined by public actors, rather than market forces.
In some cases, the means of production and distribution are publicly owned. In some cases, parts of of the supply chain are publicly owned, and some not. In some cases, all means are privately owned, but availability and price are set by the public.
Which part is socialism, and which mere regulation? Is the distinction important?
Specifically, does the distinction make a difference to my point?
Sometimes it makes sense for things to be provided through public means, rather than private contract and market forces. Virtually everyone is fine with that – including public ownership, when that makes sense – as long as you don’t call it socialism.
So I’m calling on people who use the word socialism as if it’s a synonym for the end of the world as we know it to be more specific about what it is they’re afraid of.
“The left” does not have a secret agenda to send people off to gulags and re-education camps. “The left” doesn’t want to “destroy America”.
“The left” wants stuff like affordable health care, and in contrast to “the right” doesn’t see free markets making it happen.
For example.
Maybe “the left” is right about that, maybe they’re not. But let’s talk about that, rather than commies under the bed BS.
BLM wants people, and especially cops, to stop shooting black people. That’s what they are about. That is what all of the remarkably broad cross section of people who are members of BLM – whatever that means – and/or support BLM have in common.
I work for a company which is majority owned by Vista Equity, whose CEO and principal owner is Robert E Smith. Who is black. And a billionaire. And who supports BLM.
The fact that two of the founders of BLM are Marxist – whatever that means – is irrelevant to the goal of fewer black people getting shot.
It seems to me.
The Marxist thing is a troll. I don’t think it is intentional, all those hours in the courtroom with the goal being to put opponents off balance, and he always wants to stay on a topic that he has the high ground. We all do that to a certain extent, so it’s not like he’s doing something totally out of bounds, but I wonder how many people in BLM have read Das Kapital, know the difference between the bourgeoisie and the petite bourgeoisie, could discuss Engles’ relation to Marx, or could name 1 other marxist scholar.
One could point out that the Republican party has gone through a rather interesting journey, so the argument that BLM is their founders is flawed on its face. It’s a crappy argument, and it’s disappointing that McT doesn’t want to try and deal with the more challenging aspects rather than curl up in the fetal position and say ‘It’s the Marxists!’
It’s also imporant to get out in front and if we all spend our time on dealing with the Marxist argument, we don’t look at things like this timeline
https://www.wuwm.com/post/videos-show-law-enforcement-fraternizing-armed-group-15-minutes-fatal-kenosha-shooting#stream/0
or the statements by the Kenosha police chief
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/08/kenosha-police-chief-daniel-miskinis-blames-protesters-for-own-deaths.html
This seems a hell of a lot more important than determining whether BLM is ‘Marxist’ because 2 of the founders ‘are’ Marxists, a total non-sequitur because BLM is a decentralized movement. It’s unfortunate because I would like to get his take, as a person with experience dealing with law enforcement officials, on things like this.
But if I were in McT’s shoes, I’d find that conversation very uncomfortable. The best defense is a good offense, I suppose.
My other evidence for this is textual.
I also find the Cleek’s [sic] of this world, who cannot separate themselves from their party, completely laughable when they claim to have no time for Marxism, yet the second leading vote-getter in their ‘one truth’ party was a socialist.
McT is usually more careful about his writing, and the syntax of that sentence and the rest of the comment suggests this is all stream of consciousness without a filter. McT knows full well that socialism ≠ Marxism, but it is a useful misdirection. Look how it took everyone in.
I imagine that current times are more disconcerting to him than to us on the left, cause to us, a lot (or all?) of this is laced with the feeling of ‘I told you so’.
https://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2020/04/looking-for-death.html
The Marxist thing is a troll. I don’t think it is intentional, all those hours in the courtroom with the goal being to put opponents off balance, and he always wants to stay on a topic that he has the high ground. We all do that to a certain extent, so it’s not like he’s doing something totally out of bounds, but I wonder how many people in BLM have read Das Kapital, know the difference between the bourgeoisie and the petite bourgeoisie, could discuss Engles’ relation to Marx, or could name 1 other marxist scholar.
One could point out that the Republican party has gone through a rather interesting journey, so the argument that BLM is their founders is flawed on its face. It’s a crappy argument, and it’s disappointing that McT doesn’t want to try and deal with the more challenging aspects rather than curl up in the fetal position and say ‘It’s the Marxists!’
It’s also imporant to get out in front and if we all spend our time on dealing with the Marxist argument, we don’t look at things like this timeline
https://www.wuwm.com/post/videos-show-law-enforcement-fraternizing-armed-group-15-minutes-fatal-kenosha-shooting#stream/0
or the statements by the Kenosha police chief
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/08/kenosha-police-chief-daniel-miskinis-blames-protesters-for-own-deaths.html
This seems a hell of a lot more important than determining whether BLM is ‘Marxist’ because 2 of the founders ‘are’ Marxists, a total non-sequitur because BLM is a decentralized movement. It’s unfortunate because I would like to get his take, as a person with experience dealing with law enforcement officials, on things like this.
But if I were in McT’s shoes, I’d find that conversation very uncomfortable. The best defense is a good offense, I suppose.
My other evidence for this is textual.
I also find the Cleek’s [sic] of this world, who cannot separate themselves from their party, completely laughable when they claim to have no time for Marxism, yet the second leading vote-getter in their ‘one truth’ party was a socialist.
McT is usually more careful about his writing, and the syntax of that sentence and the rest of the comment suggests this is all stream of consciousness without a filter. McT knows full well that socialism ≠ Marxism, but it is a useful misdirection. Look how it took everyone in.
I imagine that current times are more disconcerting to him than to us on the left, cause to us, a lot (or all?) of this is laced with the feeling of ‘I told you so’.
https://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2020/04/looking-for-death.html
There’s a lot to what you say, lj, and as usual wrs.
The Marxism thing as deployed by McKinney is clearly a deflection, even allowing for the misapprehensions about what is/constitutes Marxism or socialism. This misapprehension is common in the US, to a greater or lesser degree depending on the level of education. I have had an American undergraduate tell me that Obama was a “a socialist. No wait, he’s a communist”, and while McKinney has never sunk to quite this level, his certainty about Marxism 101 is nonetheless not absolutely out of the same ballpark. What doesn’t help matters (in this respect alone) is that there are so few Marxists in the States, and none at all here now that Bob McManus is gone, so that an American with a bee in his bonnet on this subject is unlikely to have had the ear talked off him as so many of us have in the past (presumably including wj in Berkeley).
No, I say it’s a deflection not only because if he paid any attention he would recognise that most of us “lefties” disavow and detest authoritarianism of any stripe, but because the reality of being black in the US, not an educated black lawyer in McKinney’s office (at least until one of them gets stopped in their expensive car by a cop having a bad day), but any black person, particularly a man, is literally unimaginable to him. I wasn’t joking about conservatives not being able to make the imaginative leap: one of my dearest friends (a wealthy Reagan staffer) only truly understood about coverage of existing conditions when a family member had Hep B. And the fact that McKinney can’t imagine it means he has to cast about for other, blameworthy motives to explain the protests.
What is happening in the US on race has been a long time coming. But the rest of what is happening, on corruption, on destruction of foreign alliances, on destruction of norms and open flouting of legal procedures, on open retaliation against patriotic public servants, on neglect of public health in a worldwide pandemic, on desertion of previous claims to economic responsibility, and on and on, is squarely on the shoulders of so-called conservatives in America who have supported and enabled the authoritarian creature in the White House, and who have only recently (starting 2016 I think) been disavowed by McKinney.
There’s a lot to what you say, lj, and as usual wrs.
The Marxism thing as deployed by McKinney is clearly a deflection, even allowing for the misapprehensions about what is/constitutes Marxism or socialism. This misapprehension is common in the US, to a greater or lesser degree depending on the level of education. I have had an American undergraduate tell me that Obama was a “a socialist. No wait, he’s a communist”, and while McKinney has never sunk to quite this level, his certainty about Marxism 101 is nonetheless not absolutely out of the same ballpark. What doesn’t help matters (in this respect alone) is that there are so few Marxists in the States, and none at all here now that Bob McManus is gone, so that an American with a bee in his bonnet on this subject is unlikely to have had the ear talked off him as so many of us have in the past (presumably including wj in Berkeley).
No, I say it’s a deflection not only because if he paid any attention he would recognise that most of us “lefties” disavow and detest authoritarianism of any stripe, but because the reality of being black in the US, not an educated black lawyer in McKinney’s office (at least until one of them gets stopped in their expensive car by a cop having a bad day), but any black person, particularly a man, is literally unimaginable to him. I wasn’t joking about conservatives not being able to make the imaginative leap: one of my dearest friends (a wealthy Reagan staffer) only truly understood about coverage of existing conditions when a family member had Hep B. And the fact that McKinney can’t imagine it means he has to cast about for other, blameworthy motives to explain the protests.
What is happening in the US on race has been a long time coming. But the rest of what is happening, on corruption, on destruction of foreign alliances, on destruction of norms and open flouting of legal procedures, on open retaliation against patriotic public servants, on neglect of public health in a worldwide pandemic, on desertion of previous claims to economic responsibility, and on and on, is squarely on the shoulders of so-called conservatives in America who have supported and enabled the authoritarian creature in the White House, and who have only recently (starting 2016 I think) been disavowed by McKinney.
an American with a bee in his bonnet on this subject is unlikely to have had the ear talked off him as so many of us have in the past
Haha!! Mitch Cohen, SUNY Stony Brook, 1979. I’m looking at you, dude!!
Then again, he hipped me to John Berger, so even stevens, I say.
an American with a bee in his bonnet on this subject is unlikely to have had the ear talked off him as so many of us have in the past
Haha!! Mitch Cohen, SUNY Stony Brook, 1979. I’m looking at you, dude!!
Then again, he hipped me to John Berger, so even stevens, I say.
I also find the Cleek’s [sic] of this world, who cannot separate themselves from their party, completely laughable when they claim to have no time for Marxism,“
Maybe you should spend less time telling people what they think , and try spending more time listening to what people are actually telling you.
I also find the Cleek’s [sic] of this world, who cannot separate themselves from their party, completely laughable when they claim to have no time for Marxism,“
Maybe you should spend less time telling people what they think , and try spending more time listening to what people are actually telling you.
Whose property was Kyle Rittenhouse protecting?
Which Max’s isn’t touched him in his private property?
Whose property was Kyle Rittenhouse protecting?
Which Max’s isn’t touched him in his private property?
The two sentences I quote at 7.47 are only the latest example of that complete inability.
Seriously, merely getting stopped for a ticket induces terror in blacks and Hispanics? How many US blacks and Hispanics do you know? Are you aware that, in Texas at least, if you are stopped by the police, odds are the officer is black or Hispanic? In the Rio Grande Valley, the odds go 99%.
But equality isn’t here yet, and police violence against people of color happens constantly. The separation of immigrant families, many of whom are refugees, is a human rights violation of the first order.
I don’t think you mean harm, McKinney, but you go way out of your way to avoid responsibility for this (not your own, but our society’s).
I’m trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but when you ignore the obvious disparities in our system of justice, from police to disparities in incarceration, it’s just plain that you’re not looking.
Sapient, thanks, first of all. Second, I’m pretty sure I addressed not only law and order issues but the Republican drift–not toward, but into–authoritarianism. Where you, Russell, BLM and all the rest miss the mark IMO is that jurisdictions vary. Venues vary. The Rio Grande Valley is overwhelmingly Hispanic. Houston is thoroughly integrated. San Antonio is somewhere at or above majority Hispanic (I haven’t looked in a while). Dallas is anything but homogeneous. However, crime stats are pretty stable and they do drive police attitudes. Repeating myself, it’s for the police to get right, not the criminal element, but that doesn’t diminish the fact that young black and Hispanic men make up the majority of police encounters and, particularly in the case of blacks, the numbers are way out of proportion to the general black population. Police are human and they have the unfortunate human tendency to generalize, as do many of us here.
As an aside, I make no apologies for blaming the CCP for the spread of CoVID.
Cops shoot black people in proportionately greater numbers than they shoot white people.
Yes and no. Yes, because whites hugely outnumber blacks in the general population. But no if you look at encounters with police. Whites and black, overall, have roughly equal numbers of arrests, i.e. encounters, and whites are killed slightly more than black. Blacks, disproportionately, engage in violent crime. Unpleasant fact which–again–doesn’t excuse the state from imposing differential treatment or excessive force based on any criteria and specifically race.
Pro Bono, from your link, the author writes:
thereby demonstrating the truth of Marx’s claim that “capital is reckless of the health or length of life of the labourer, unless under compulsion from society.”
Intelligent Marxists don’t come right out and say “Stalin had it right”. What they do is make statements like this, operative word: compulsion. So, all of my points stand: marxism/socialism (I don’t care about theoretical distinctions within the various movements), in practice, produce tyranny, scarcity and, often, mass starvation depending on population size. To ally with Marxism, given its history, is simply deplorable.
Does is make a Marxist a good person if a Marxist thinks excessive force applied disproportionately to young black men is wrong? No. The vast majority of us hold that view. Most people think cannibalism, pedophilia and murder are wrong. It’s like being against death on the highway, not a high bar.
Russell, I get that there are a limited number of public goods that we, as taxpayers, ask our government–at different levels–to provide. However, pointing at the Interstate Highway system and shouting “socialism!” implying ‘hey, we’re all socialists at heart’, doesn’t fly. Socialism has a history. We all know what that history is. It does not work in any meaningful way (but, but, but Denmark!). It has killed way more people than fascism. Socialism = megadeath. Historical fact.
Which is no accident–socialism is inherently dictatorial. Socialism cannot exist side-by-side with any competing system. With socialism, as with any state-provided good or service, you get what the state is willing to let you have. You can’t work harder, stay at the office longer, play or sing better and get more than the state is willing to give. Being able to vote for whoever determines how much you get, or don’t get, is no consolation. So, when I hear or see Marxists or socialism, I push back.
And, to repeat, the left–or a sizeable chunk of it–spills a lot of ink contextualizing/minimizing/explaining/defending the indefensible. And they get very, very pissy when called out. I don’t care.
LJ, you have a limited grasp of the courtroom. I’m either trying to persuade a judge that my position is correct or 12 jurors that the evidence points in a given direction. That’s what trial lawyers do. It isn’t about point-scoring, although that can be a side product of cross-examination, but if the point doesn’t’ resonate with others, it’s a point for the other side. As for the rest of your observations, assuming I’m tracking, I addressed pretty much everything you think I’d find uncomfortable or whatever and I did it as a part of trying to illustrate, with nuance, that not everything boils nicely down to sloganeering.
And, as a final note, I did not raise Marxism. I was responding to Russell–which is not to criticize Russell by any means. So, as you often like to chastise Marty for not having fully read and appreciated what you’ve had to say, back at you.
The two sentences I quote at 7.47 are only the latest example of that complete inability.
Seriously, merely getting stopped for a ticket induces terror in blacks and Hispanics? How many US blacks and Hispanics do you know? Are you aware that, in Texas at least, if you are stopped by the police, odds are the officer is black or Hispanic? In the Rio Grande Valley, the odds go 99%.
But equality isn’t here yet, and police violence against people of color happens constantly. The separation of immigrant families, many of whom are refugees, is a human rights violation of the first order.
I don’t think you mean harm, McKinney, but you go way out of your way to avoid responsibility for this (not your own, but our society’s).
I’m trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but when you ignore the obvious disparities in our system of justice, from police to disparities in incarceration, it’s just plain that you’re not looking.
Sapient, thanks, first of all. Second, I’m pretty sure I addressed not only law and order issues but the Republican drift–not toward, but into–authoritarianism. Where you, Russell, BLM and all the rest miss the mark IMO is that jurisdictions vary. Venues vary. The Rio Grande Valley is overwhelmingly Hispanic. Houston is thoroughly integrated. San Antonio is somewhere at or above majority Hispanic (I haven’t looked in a while). Dallas is anything but homogeneous. However, crime stats are pretty stable and they do drive police attitudes. Repeating myself, it’s for the police to get right, not the criminal element, but that doesn’t diminish the fact that young black and Hispanic men make up the majority of police encounters and, particularly in the case of blacks, the numbers are way out of proportion to the general black population. Police are human and they have the unfortunate human tendency to generalize, as do many of us here.
As an aside, I make no apologies for blaming the CCP for the spread of CoVID.
Cops shoot black people in proportionately greater numbers than they shoot white people.
Yes and no. Yes, because whites hugely outnumber blacks in the general population. But no if you look at encounters with police. Whites and black, overall, have roughly equal numbers of arrests, i.e. encounters, and whites are killed slightly more than black. Blacks, disproportionately, engage in violent crime. Unpleasant fact which–again–doesn’t excuse the state from imposing differential treatment or excessive force based on any criteria and specifically race.
Pro Bono, from your link, the author writes:
thereby demonstrating the truth of Marx’s claim that “capital is reckless of the health or length of life of the labourer, unless under compulsion from society.”
Intelligent Marxists don’t come right out and say “Stalin had it right”. What they do is make statements like this, operative word: compulsion. So, all of my points stand: marxism/socialism (I don’t care about theoretical distinctions within the various movements), in practice, produce tyranny, scarcity and, often, mass starvation depending on population size. To ally with Marxism, given its history, is simply deplorable.
Does is make a Marxist a good person if a Marxist thinks excessive force applied disproportionately to young black men is wrong? No. The vast majority of us hold that view. Most people think cannibalism, pedophilia and murder are wrong. It’s like being against death on the highway, not a high bar.
Russell, I get that there are a limited number of public goods that we, as taxpayers, ask our government–at different levels–to provide. However, pointing at the Interstate Highway system and shouting “socialism!” implying ‘hey, we’re all socialists at heart’, doesn’t fly. Socialism has a history. We all know what that history is. It does not work in any meaningful way (but, but, but Denmark!). It has killed way more people than fascism. Socialism = megadeath. Historical fact.
Which is no accident–socialism is inherently dictatorial. Socialism cannot exist side-by-side with any competing system. With socialism, as with any state-provided good or service, you get what the state is willing to let you have. You can’t work harder, stay at the office longer, play or sing better and get more than the state is willing to give. Being able to vote for whoever determines how much you get, or don’t get, is no consolation. So, when I hear or see Marxists or socialism, I push back.
And, to repeat, the left–or a sizeable chunk of it–spills a lot of ink contextualizing/minimizing/explaining/defending the indefensible. And they get very, very pissy when called out. I don’t care.
LJ, you have a limited grasp of the courtroom. I’m either trying to persuade a judge that my position is correct or 12 jurors that the evidence points in a given direction. That’s what trial lawyers do. It isn’t about point-scoring, although that can be a side product of cross-examination, but if the point doesn’t’ resonate with others, it’s a point for the other side. As for the rest of your observations, assuming I’m tracking, I addressed pretty much everything you think I’d find uncomfortable or whatever and I did it as a part of trying to illustrate, with nuance, that not everything boils nicely down to sloganeering.
And, as a final note, I did not raise Marxism. I was responding to Russell–which is not to criticize Russell by any means. So, as you often like to chastise Marty for not having fully read and appreciated what you’ve had to say, back at you.
“Max isn’t “ = Marxist
Fuck auto correct
“Max isn’t “ = Marxist
Fuck auto correct
McKT: you say that any sort of legal obligation for an employer to protect the health of his employees is deplorable Marxist tyranny. I disagree.
McKT: you say that any sort of legal obligation for an employer to protect the health of his employees is deplorable Marxist tyranny. I disagree.
You think you were just addressing russell’s point about BLM not being Marxist, I think you were seizing on that to divert discussion. The commentariat can decide for themselves.
To repeat, what is your take on these two articles
this timeline
https://www.wuwm.com/post/videos-show-law-enforcement-fraternizing-armed-group-15-minutes-fatal-kenosha-shooting#stream/0
these statements by the Kenosha police chief
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/08/kenosha-police-chief-daniel-miskinis-blames-protesters-for-own-deaths.html
If you have addressed that, if you could tell me the time stamp of the comment, I would appreciate it.
You think you were just addressing russell’s point about BLM not being Marxist, I think you were seizing on that to divert discussion. The commentariat can decide for themselves.
To repeat, what is your take on these two articles
this timeline
https://www.wuwm.com/post/videos-show-law-enforcement-fraternizing-armed-group-15-minutes-fatal-kenosha-shooting#stream/0
these statements by the Kenosha police chief
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/08/kenosha-police-chief-daniel-miskinis-blames-protesters-for-own-deaths.html
If you have addressed that, if you could tell me the time stamp of the comment, I would appreciate it.
McKT: you say that any sort of legal obligation for an employer to protect the health of his employees is deplorable Marxist tyranny. I disagree.
Do you expect to be taken seriously when you make stuff up out of whole cloth? So, as one who favors Marxism, pls admit that you fully support the Soviet gulag system, the CCP’s treatment of the Uyghur population, Venezuela as it enjoys the dicatorship of the proletariat and everyone’s favorite Caribbean vacation spot, the one party state of Cuba.
McKT: you say that any sort of legal obligation for an employer to protect the health of his employees is deplorable Marxist tyranny. I disagree.
Do you expect to be taken seriously when you make stuff up out of whole cloth? So, as one who favors Marxism, pls admit that you fully support the Soviet gulag system, the CCP’s treatment of the Uyghur population, Venezuela as it enjoys the dicatorship of the proletariat and everyone’s favorite Caribbean vacation spot, the one party state of Cuba.
Venues vary.
Agreed. And I doubt that is a mark I am missing.
I’m sure that Houston and the Rio Grande Valley are more accommodating places for people of color – various colors – than many other places in the country.
We don’t all live in Houston or the Rio Grande Valley.
Socialism = megadeath
The problem with this formulation is that it fails to account for all of the cases where socialism does not equal megadeath.
Like, every mixed economy nation in the OECD.
And as a comparison to capitalism, it fails to acknowledge all of the loss of life that *that* system has inspired.
Like, the centuries-long plantation model.
Likewise, the claim that socialism “only gives you what the state is willing to let you have” ignores the capitalist corollary – the market only gives you what you have money to buy.
Which does not always feel like freedom to folks who don’t have the do-re-mi.
In any case – this is a position that you appear to hold more or less dogmatically. I have no expectation of persuading you away from it.
It’s sufficient to say that your formulation of it here is unlikely to persuade me toward it, either.
As always, I appreciate your participation here, and appreciate your thoughtful replies to my comments.
Peace out.
Venues vary.
Agreed. And I doubt that is a mark I am missing.
I’m sure that Houston and the Rio Grande Valley are more accommodating places for people of color – various colors – than many other places in the country.
We don’t all live in Houston or the Rio Grande Valley.
Socialism = megadeath
The problem with this formulation is that it fails to account for all of the cases where socialism does not equal megadeath.
Like, every mixed economy nation in the OECD.
And as a comparison to capitalism, it fails to acknowledge all of the loss of life that *that* system has inspired.
Like, the centuries-long plantation model.
Likewise, the claim that socialism “only gives you what the state is willing to let you have” ignores the capitalist corollary – the market only gives you what you have money to buy.
Which does not always feel like freedom to folks who don’t have the do-re-mi.
In any case – this is a position that you appear to hold more or less dogmatically. I have no expectation of persuading you away from it.
It’s sufficient to say that your formulation of it here is unlikely to persuade me toward it, either.
As always, I appreciate your participation here, and appreciate your thoughtful replies to my comments.
Peace out.
distraction achieved.
once again, old conservative whites will fail to adjust their behavior even a fraction of a degree. this time, because of [Spins giant Wheel of Conservative Bogeymen] … Marxism!
distraction achieved.
once again, old conservative whites will fail to adjust their behavior even a fraction of a degree. this time, because of [Spins giant Wheel of Conservative Bogeymen] … Marxism!
Like, the centuries-long plantation model.
That may be a bit of a stretch given that some of the prominent proponents of a slave-based economy at the time were anti-capitalism. And that the plantations were subsidized by governments in the form of escaped slave patrols, among other things, that poor whites were dragooned into without compensation.
Like, the centuries-long plantation model.
That may be a bit of a stretch given that some of the prominent proponents of a slave-based economy at the time were anti-capitalism. And that the plantations were subsidized by governments in the form of escaped slave patrols, among other things, that poor whites were dragooned into without compensation.
If you have addressed that, if you could tell me the time stamp of the comment, I would appreciate it.
Yep, I did miss that one. Actually, I think I misread what you were saying, but you were clear enough.
So, is it a bad thing that the police were down with the armed people who showed up ostensibly to protect property from vandals? Yes. I think the police should been more pro-active in discouraging armed civilians from inserting themselves into a volatile situation. As I commented above, open carry creates a lot more problems than it solves and this is one example, although I have nothing in principle against defending property from rioters if law enforcement is unavailable.
As for the Kenosha police chief, he made the common sense point that if the rioters had obeyed the curfew, the incident would not have occurred. You can call that blaming the victim. I call it making a valid but incomplete point, which gets me back to the problem with open carry: the mindset of people who practice open carry is inherently confrontational, at least to an extent.
When I first heard that locals were showing up armed, I had a vague sense that this was not right. Young, immature males carrying firearms around other people is a recipe for disaster and that is what ensued. Should the police have proactively addressed the armed civilians? In my mind, yes. They should have asked them to leave. The shooter was arrested and charged with 1st degree murder, so the police did not reward that person’s conduct.
Implicit in conferring on the state the near-monopoly on lawful violence, is that the state will arm and train its agents to perform lawfully and competently. For those who so admire government in action, the inability of the state to meet its training and discharge of duties competently should be a warning. Permitting unknown, untrained but armed people to assist in discharging the state’s duty is a very bad idea. That the local scene commander did not disperse those people was a huge error in judgement.
If you have addressed that, if you could tell me the time stamp of the comment, I would appreciate it.
Yep, I did miss that one. Actually, I think I misread what you were saying, but you were clear enough.
So, is it a bad thing that the police were down with the armed people who showed up ostensibly to protect property from vandals? Yes. I think the police should been more pro-active in discouraging armed civilians from inserting themselves into a volatile situation. As I commented above, open carry creates a lot more problems than it solves and this is one example, although I have nothing in principle against defending property from rioters if law enforcement is unavailable.
As for the Kenosha police chief, he made the common sense point that if the rioters had obeyed the curfew, the incident would not have occurred. You can call that blaming the victim. I call it making a valid but incomplete point, which gets me back to the problem with open carry: the mindset of people who practice open carry is inherently confrontational, at least to an extent.
When I first heard that locals were showing up armed, I had a vague sense that this was not right. Young, immature males carrying firearms around other people is a recipe for disaster and that is what ensued. Should the police have proactively addressed the armed civilians? In my mind, yes. They should have asked them to leave. The shooter was arrested and charged with 1st degree murder, so the police did not reward that person’s conduct.
Implicit in conferring on the state the near-monopoly on lawful violence, is that the state will arm and train its agents to perform lawfully and competently. For those who so admire government in action, the inability of the state to meet its training and discharge of duties competently should be a warning. Permitting unknown, untrained but armed people to assist in discharging the state’s duty is a very bad idea. That the local scene commander did not disperse those people was a huge error in judgement.
Seriously, merely getting stopped for a ticket induces terror in blacks and Hispanics?
Yes. Terror for many, in many places. Fear or extreme trepidation for most, for good reason. How do I know this? I listen to people, and don’t put words in their mouths that I wish they had said, or think they really meant.
Do you expect to be taken seriously when you make stuff up out of whole cloth? So, as one who favors Marxism, pls admit that you fully support the Soviet gulag system, the CCP’s treatment of the Uyghur population, Venezuela as it enjoys the dicatorship of the proletariat and everyone’s favorite Caribbean vacation spot, the one party state of Cuba.
LOL. I only hope Pro Bono doesn’t choose this moment to stop biting hooks.
As always, I appreciate your participation here, and appreciate your thoughtful replies to my comments.
As a matter of fact, so do I, and (some of) your thoughtful replies to russell’s comments make me think you are not a complete deplorable. But I do think your obsession with us “lefties” and Marxism/socialism is a deflection. America is possibly being destroyed, and it’s not by us. But I imagine if we give the right long enough, the ones that haven’t already will find a way to blame us.
Seriously, merely getting stopped for a ticket induces terror in blacks and Hispanics?
Yes. Terror for many, in many places. Fear or extreme trepidation for most, for good reason. How do I know this? I listen to people, and don’t put words in their mouths that I wish they had said, or think they really meant.
Do you expect to be taken seriously when you make stuff up out of whole cloth? So, as one who favors Marxism, pls admit that you fully support the Soviet gulag system, the CCP’s treatment of the Uyghur population, Venezuela as it enjoys the dicatorship of the proletariat and everyone’s favorite Caribbean vacation spot, the one party state of Cuba.
LOL. I only hope Pro Bono doesn’t choose this moment to stop biting hooks.
As always, I appreciate your participation here, and appreciate your thoughtful replies to my comments.
As a matter of fact, so do I, and (some of) your thoughtful replies to russell’s comments make me think you are not a complete deplorable. But I do think your obsession with us “lefties” and Marxism/socialism is a deflection. America is possibly being destroyed, and it’s not by us. But I imagine if we give the right long enough, the ones that haven’t already will find a way to blame us.
Clarification: when I say America is possibly being destroyed, what I mean is that around 40% of the population (90% of the GOP) is all in for Trump, and can’t see a thing wrong with anything he is doing. That is the beginning of the destruction of the American project.
Clarification: when I say America is possibly being destroyed, what I mean is that around 40% of the population (90% of the GOP) is all in for Trump, and can’t see a thing wrong with anything he is doing. That is the beginning of the destruction of the American project.
Yes. Terror for many, in many places. Fear or extreme trepidation for most, for good reason. How do I know this? I listen to people, and don’t put words in their mouths that I wish they had said, or think they really meant.
Interesting. Seems like a pretty severe over-reaction to me.
But I do think your obsession with us “lefties” and Marxism/socialism is a deflection.
And I think it’s precisely why so many people who can’t stand Trump voted for him in 2016. I think a lot of well meaning lefties are getting taken for a ride by their very woke, statist base which is informed to a significant degree by hard left Marxists who dominate various portions of academia. Fish don’t notice water and lefties have been around socialists–they used to be the fringe–so long, they don’t notice them or their rising influence. Not for nothing do LJ and Nous refer to Foucault. Their program is not tweaking the free market to make intelligent tweaks to the safety net. So, two different world views.
Yes. Terror for many, in many places. Fear or extreme trepidation for most, for good reason. How do I know this? I listen to people, and don’t put words in their mouths that I wish they had said, or think they really meant.
Interesting. Seems like a pretty severe over-reaction to me.
But I do think your obsession with us “lefties” and Marxism/socialism is a deflection.
And I think it’s precisely why so many people who can’t stand Trump voted for him in 2016. I think a lot of well meaning lefties are getting taken for a ride by their very woke, statist base which is informed to a significant degree by hard left Marxists who dominate various portions of academia. Fish don’t notice water and lefties have been around socialists–they used to be the fringe–so long, they don’t notice them or their rising influence. Not for nothing do LJ and Nous refer to Foucault. Their program is not tweaking the free market to make intelligent tweaks to the safety net. So, two different world views.
Seems like a pretty severe over-reaction to me.
Yes, we got that. I’m sure they’ll rethink their attitude in view of what you say.
I think a lot of well meaning lefties are getting taken for a ride by their very woke, statist base which is informed to a significant degree by hard left Marxists who dominate various portions of academia.
If this is even true (and I don’t believe it really is, although it is a recurrent talking point on the right), you should know perfectly well it doesn’t apply to us here, although your regular jeremiads and rants treat us as exemplars. Every time you come up with an example, (e.g. on “cultural appropriation” issues on campus) we almost always condemn it or say its crazy. But for some reason, you never seem to remember that….
Seems like a pretty severe over-reaction to me.
Yes, we got that. I’m sure they’ll rethink their attitude in view of what you say.
I think a lot of well meaning lefties are getting taken for a ride by their very woke, statist base which is informed to a significant degree by hard left Marxists who dominate various portions of academia.
If this is even true (and I don’t believe it really is, although it is a recurrent talking point on the right), you should know perfectly well it doesn’t apply to us here, although your regular jeremiads and rants treat us as exemplars. Every time you come up with an example, (e.g. on “cultural appropriation” issues on campus) we almost always condemn it or say its crazy. But for some reason, you never seem to remember that….
“which is informed to a significant degree by hard left Marxists “
It really isn’t.
Join us in this century. Quit living in 1954.
“which is informed to a significant degree by hard left Marxists “
It really isn’t.
Join us in this century. Quit living in 1954.
McKT: you say that any sort of legal obligation for an employer to protect the health of his employees is deplorable Marxist tyranny. I disagree.
I think you may have conflated McKinney with CharlesWT here.
McKT: you say that any sort of legal obligation for an employer to protect the health of his employees is deplorable Marxist tyranny. I disagree.
I think you may have conflated McKinney with CharlesWT here.
I think it’s precisely why so many people who can’t stand Trump voted for him in 2016.
Anyone who voted for Trump in 2016 because of “hard left Marxists” who “dominate the universities” is an idiot.
I’m sorry to say that, but I don’t know what else to say about it.
If people in this country can’t be arsed to figure out the difference between sh*t and shinola, then we’re going to have presidents like Trump, and we’re going to go straight down the tubes. And we will deserve to.
At a certain point, folks need to stop blaming “the left” for the ignorance and bad choices of everybody else.
People are responsible for their own votes. If they can’t muster the wit to vote intelligently, then we’ll have stupid government. Like we have, for instance, right now. And like we had from 2000 until 2008.
And they will suffer for it, along with all of the rest of us.
Most people who go on about Marxism and socialism have no freaking idea what those words mean. None whatsoever. They vote based on the boogiemen in their heads.
There is bugger-all that anybody “on the left” can do about that. Would that there was, frankly. But there isn’t.
People do what they want to do. They need to own their choices and stop looking for other people to blame.
I think it’s precisely why so many people who can’t stand Trump voted for him in 2016.
Anyone who voted for Trump in 2016 because of “hard left Marxists” who “dominate the universities” is an idiot.
I’m sorry to say that, but I don’t know what else to say about it.
If people in this country can’t be arsed to figure out the difference between sh*t and shinola, then we’re going to have presidents like Trump, and we’re going to go straight down the tubes. And we will deserve to.
At a certain point, folks need to stop blaming “the left” for the ignorance and bad choices of everybody else.
People are responsible for their own votes. If they can’t muster the wit to vote intelligently, then we’ll have stupid government. Like we have, for instance, right now. And like we had from 2000 until 2008.
And they will suffer for it, along with all of the rest of us.
Most people who go on about Marxism and socialism have no freaking idea what those words mean. None whatsoever. They vote based on the boogiemen in their heads.
There is bugger-all that anybody “on the left” can do about that. Would that there was, frankly. But there isn’t.
People do what they want to do. They need to own their choices and stop looking for other people to blame.
I think you may have conflated McKinney with CharlesWT here.
That would make sense. I thought Pro Bono’s comment was very strange. PB, I withdraw my snark.
I think you may have conflated McKinney with CharlesWT here.
That would make sense. I thought Pro Bono’s comment was very strange. PB, I withdraw my snark.
Anyone who voted for Trump in 2016 because of “hard left Marxists” who “dominate the universities” is an idiot.
Russell, i’m not looking to argue this point with you anymore, but you are conflating and reformatting my position in way that mis-states it. I get that lefties don’t think the hard left has any real influence inside the Dem party. From the outside looking in, it looks a lot different. You have one headliner here and several prominent commenters who consider–as I said–Foucault to be authoritative/instructive or what-have-you. When the Dem’s second leading vote getter is a socialist, that is not nothing. And I don’t buy that BS doesn’t know what he means when he says he’s a socialist. Also, FWIW, I see a somewhat analogous taint on the far/alt right gaining traction under DT. I said “analogous” not “comparable”.
Anyone who voted for Trump in 2016 because of “hard left Marxists” who “dominate the universities” is an idiot.
Russell, i’m not looking to argue this point with you anymore, but you are conflating and reformatting my position in way that mis-states it. I get that lefties don’t think the hard left has any real influence inside the Dem party. From the outside looking in, it looks a lot different. You have one headliner here and several prominent commenters who consider–as I said–Foucault to be authoritative/instructive or what-have-you. When the Dem’s second leading vote getter is a socialist, that is not nothing. And I don’t buy that BS doesn’t know what he means when he says he’s a socialist. Also, FWIW, I see a somewhat analogous taint on the far/alt right gaining traction under DT. I said “analogous” not “comparable”.
McKinney, would you mind explaining your understanding of the philosophy and influence of Foucault?
McKinney, would you mind explaining your understanding of the philosophy and influence of Foucault?
I think you may have conflated McKinney with CharlesWT here.
I’ve nevered objected to workplaces being safe.
I think you may have conflated McKinney with CharlesWT here.
I’ve nevered objected to workplaces being safe.
Cops shoot black people in proportionately greater numbers than they shoot white people.
McK: Yes and no. Yes, because whites hugely outnumber blacks in the general population.
Apologies for reaching so far back. But I have to comment on this. The larger number of whites does NOT result in cops shooting proportionately greater numbers of blacks. That’s the whole point of using per capita (more usually, per 100,000) numbers.
Cops shoot black people in proportionately greater numbers than they shoot white people.
McK: Yes and no. Yes, because whites hugely outnumber blacks in the general population.
Apologies for reaching so far back. But I have to comment on this. The larger number of whites does NOT result in cops shooting proportionately greater numbers of blacks. That’s the whole point of using per capita (more usually, per 100,000) numbers.
Russell, i’m not looking to argue this point with you anymore
That’s all good.
What I’m insisting on here is not blaming people who did not, and would not, and never will, vote for Donald Trump as POTUS, for the votes of the people who did.
Their votes, their responsibility as citizens to educate themselves and understand who and what they are voting for.
Either they did that, and knowingly chose this mess. Or they didn’t do that, and chose this mess out of ignorance. I’m not sure which is worse, maybe they’re equally bad in their own way.
Their choice. Not mine, nor anyone like me. Their choice, they own it.
The freaking mess this country is in right now? They did that. Not me, not anyone like me.
Thanks
Russell, i’m not looking to argue this point with you anymore
That’s all good.
What I’m insisting on here is not blaming people who did not, and would not, and never will, vote for Donald Trump as POTUS, for the votes of the people who did.
Their votes, their responsibility as citizens to educate themselves and understand who and what they are voting for.
Either they did that, and knowingly chose this mess. Or they didn’t do that, and chose this mess out of ignorance. I’m not sure which is worse, maybe they’re equally bad in their own way.
Their choice. Not mine, nor anyone like me. Their choice, they own it.
The freaking mess this country is in right now? They did that. Not me, not anyone like me.
Thanks
The larger number of whites does NOT result in cops shooting proportionately greater numbers of blacks.
Rate of death by cop, over more or less the last five years:
The rate of black vs white killings by cops is 2.5. You are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by a cop if you are black.
“But that’s because blacks commit crimes at a higher rate!”
And why is that?
“But that’s because blacks have more contact with police than whites!”
And why is that?
If you’re black, you are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by a cop than if you are white.
And that’s why people are angry.
Everybody loves a link.
The larger number of whites does NOT result in cops shooting proportionately greater numbers of blacks.
Rate of death by cop, over more or less the last five years:
The rate of black vs white killings by cops is 2.5. You are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by a cop if you are black.
“But that’s because blacks commit crimes at a higher rate!”
And why is that?
“But that’s because blacks have more contact with police than whites!”
And why is that?
If you’re black, you are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by a cop than if you are white.
And that’s why people are angry.
Everybody loves a link.
McKinney, would you mind explaining your understanding of the philosophy and influence of Foucault?
I’m not a student of Foucault, but here’s a link that illustrates where I’m coming from: https://areomagazine.com/2019/08/29/marx-vs-foucault-reflections-on-history-and-power/
Philosophy being what it is, subject matter experts can parse differences between Marx and Foucault that are matters of degree and not kind to the outside observer. To western liberal democrats, Foucault is a continuation and perhaps an extension of Marx’s basic views. I’m confident that LJ and Nous can and very well may give a detailed explication of why Foucault and Marx are night and day. Fine. Whatever. Marx is the starting point for people like Foucault.
ate of death by cop, over more or less the last five years:
30 black people per million
22 Hispanic people per million
12 white people per million
The rate of black vs white killings by cops is 2.5. You are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by a cop if you are black.
If I had the time, I’d address this in more detail. The WaPo tracks the actual numbers of police-related civilian deaths and the FBI tracks total crime figures by race. What you get is that whites and blacks have roughly the same number of police encounters a year. This has held more or less steady for some time. The number of people who never encounter the police getting killed by police is zero. The relevant universe is “encounters with police”. The number of encounters is roughly the same as is the number of unarmed persons killed by police.
McKinney, would you mind explaining your understanding of the philosophy and influence of Foucault?
I’m not a student of Foucault, but here’s a link that illustrates where I’m coming from: https://areomagazine.com/2019/08/29/marx-vs-foucault-reflections-on-history-and-power/
Philosophy being what it is, subject matter experts can parse differences between Marx and Foucault that are matters of degree and not kind to the outside observer. To western liberal democrats, Foucault is a continuation and perhaps an extension of Marx’s basic views. I’m confident that LJ and Nous can and very well may give a detailed explication of why Foucault and Marx are night and day. Fine. Whatever. Marx is the starting point for people like Foucault.
ate of death by cop, over more or less the last five years:
30 black people per million
22 Hispanic people per million
12 white people per million
The rate of black vs white killings by cops is 2.5. You are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by a cop if you are black.
If I had the time, I’d address this in more detail. The WaPo tracks the actual numbers of police-related civilian deaths and the FBI tracks total crime figures by race. What you get is that whites and blacks have roughly the same number of police encounters a year. This has held more or less steady for some time. The number of people who never encounter the police getting killed by police is zero. The relevant universe is “encounters with police”. The number of encounters is roughly the same as is the number of unarmed persons killed by police.
The WaPo tracks the actual numbers of police-related civilian deaths and the FBI tracks total crime figures by race.
Washington Post.
FBI
I saw a comment from the dreaded AOC recently, which I thought was apt:
What would it look like if a community de-funded the police, and instead invested in other social and community institutions?
It would look like a suburb, noted AOC.
The fact that black people, and especially young black men in urban environments, commit crimes and come into contact with police at rates disproportionate to their numbers is a fact. It’s a phenomenon.
Phenomena have causes. We try to understand the causes, and the explanations we come up with tell us about the phenomena, and also about ourselves.
And when all is said and done, if you’re black, you’re 2.5 times as likely to be shot by a cop than if you’re white.
The WaPo tracks the actual numbers of police-related civilian deaths and the FBI tracks total crime figures by race.
Washington Post.
FBI
I saw a comment from the dreaded AOC recently, which I thought was apt:
What would it look like if a community de-funded the police, and instead invested in other social and community institutions?
It would look like a suburb, noted AOC.
The fact that black people, and especially young black men in urban environments, commit crimes and come into contact with police at rates disproportionate to their numbers is a fact. It’s a phenomenon.
Phenomena have causes. We try to understand the causes, and the explanations we come up with tell us about the phenomena, and also about ourselves.
And when all is said and done, if you’re black, you’re 2.5 times as likely to be shot by a cop than if you’re white.
wj: I think you may have conflated McKinney with CharlesWT here.
McKinney did not conflate Pro Bono with CharlesWT. McKinney said this, from the blog that Pro Bono linked (I have checked):
Pro Bono, from your link, the author writes:
Intelligent Marxists don’t come right out and say “Stalin had it right”. What they do is make statements like this, operative word: compulsion. So, all of my points stand: marxism/socialism (I don’t care about theoretical distinctions within the various movements), in practice, produce tyranny, scarcity and, often, mass starvation depending on population size. To ally with Marxism, given its history, is simply deplorable.
To which Pro Bono, quite understandably replied:
McKT: you say that any sort of legal obligation for an employer to protect the health of his employees is deplorable Marxist tyranny. I disagree.
It was this which produced the enjoyable retort, from McKinney to Pro Bono (and I admit, purely in the spirit of a relative of Loki, I am still hoping Pro Bono replies):
Do you expect to be taken seriously when you make stuff up out of whole cloth? So, as one who favors Marxism, pls admit that you fully support the Soviet gulag system, the CCP’s treatment of the Uyghur population, Venezuela as it enjoys the dicatorship of the proletariat and everyone’s favorite Caribbean vacation spot, the one party state of Cuba.
wj: I think you may have conflated McKinney with CharlesWT here.
McKinney did not conflate Pro Bono with CharlesWT. McKinney said this, from the blog that Pro Bono linked (I have checked):
Pro Bono, from your link, the author writes:
Intelligent Marxists don’t come right out and say “Stalin had it right”. What they do is make statements like this, operative word: compulsion. So, all of my points stand: marxism/socialism (I don’t care about theoretical distinctions within the various movements), in practice, produce tyranny, scarcity and, often, mass starvation depending on population size. To ally with Marxism, given its history, is simply deplorable.
To which Pro Bono, quite understandably replied:
McKT: you say that any sort of legal obligation for an employer to protect the health of his employees is deplorable Marxist tyranny. I disagree.
It was this which produced the enjoyable retort, from McKinney to Pro Bono (and I admit, purely in the spirit of a relative of Loki, I am still hoping Pro Bono replies):
Do you expect to be taken seriously when you make stuff up out of whole cloth? So, as one who favors Marxism, pls admit that you fully support the Soviet gulag system, the CCP’s treatment of the Uyghur population, Venezuela as it enjoys the dicatorship of the proletariat and everyone’s favorite Caribbean vacation spot, the one party state of Cuba.
Race is a factor, but there’re other social, economic, cultural, demographic, geographic, who knows what else, factors that contribute to that “2.5”
Race is a factor, but there’re other social, economic, cultural, demographic, geographic, who knows what else, factors that contribute to that “2.5”
whatever, Charles.
god forbid that we should have to confront the idea that we might, as a society and a culture, be prone to racial bias.
whatever, Charles.
god forbid that we should have to confront the idea that we might, as a society and a culture, be prone to racial bias.
McT, thanks for the reply. I stand by my feeling that you grabbed on to a word by Russell and, like a dog worrying a bone, you’ve growled anytime someone suggests that there might be bones more interesting and tasty. Russell’s comment about BLM not being Marxist was just a passing comment and at any rate, I don’t see how a decentralized movement can be Marxist, though I’m an anarchist and I cast a side-eye at Marxism.
At this point, I set McT and the whole Marxism ᴙ us shtick aside (no offense) and talk about some googling I did. Folks can draw their own conclusions, though mine is this story is nuttier than a fruitcake, and I don’t attach it to anyone here.
I had a throw away line about the Republican party’s interesting journey and I thought it was too pat to think that Lincoln had founded the Republican party, so I started looking for who the founders of the Republican party were.
I got the name of Alvin Bovay
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvan_E._Bovay
https://littlewhiteschoolhouse.com/
Googling more about Bovay, I found a cut and paste letter/screed to the editor about how Bouvay was actually a communist. O rly?
The letter pointed to a work by Fredrich Engles called
The Principles of Communism
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm#6
which has this
In America, where a democratic constitution has already been established, the communists must make the common cause with the party which will turn this constitution against the bourgeoisie and use it in the interests of the proletariat – that is, with the agrarian National Reformers.
with National Reformers hotlinked.
(and Hartmut, I’m very curious what the original German was for that name for reasons that will become apparent)
So I clicked on it and found myself on a John Birch Society pdf with a forward by Arthur Thompson, CEO of the Society
http://www.thenewamerican.com/freedomindex/pdf/1307.pdf
On the other hand, the GOP has not been subverted, but instead it was begun as a way to misdirect the people. There have been periods of time when it has served as the platform for conservatism when enough people got involved to make it so. But from the beginning, the Republican Party was a tool of communists and their conspiratorial allies
and follows with an entertaining tale of Bouvay’s communist roots connected with a free love socialist colony next to Ripon, Wisconsin called Ceresco or the Wisconsin Phalanx
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceresco,_Wisconsin
And all sorts of twists and turns that I post here for everyone’s reading pleasure. It’s a hoot.
McT, thanks for the reply. I stand by my feeling that you grabbed on to a word by Russell and, like a dog worrying a bone, you’ve growled anytime someone suggests that there might be bones more interesting and tasty. Russell’s comment about BLM not being Marxist was just a passing comment and at any rate, I don’t see how a decentralized movement can be Marxist, though I’m an anarchist and I cast a side-eye at Marxism.
At this point, I set McT and the whole Marxism ᴙ us shtick aside (no offense) and talk about some googling I did. Folks can draw their own conclusions, though mine is this story is nuttier than a fruitcake, and I don’t attach it to anyone here.
I had a throw away line about the Republican party’s interesting journey and I thought it was too pat to think that Lincoln had founded the Republican party, so I started looking for who the founders of the Republican party were.
I got the name of Alvin Bovay
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvan_E._Bovay
https://littlewhiteschoolhouse.com/
Googling more about Bovay, I found a cut and paste letter/screed to the editor about how Bouvay was actually a communist. O rly?
The letter pointed to a work by Fredrich Engles called
The Principles of Communism
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm#6
which has this
In America, where a democratic constitution has already been established, the communists must make the common cause with the party which will turn this constitution against the bourgeoisie and use it in the interests of the proletariat – that is, with the agrarian National Reformers.
with National Reformers hotlinked.
(and Hartmut, I’m very curious what the original German was for that name for reasons that will become apparent)
So I clicked on it and found myself on a John Birch Society pdf with a forward by Arthur Thompson, CEO of the Society
http://www.thenewamerican.com/freedomindex/pdf/1307.pdf
On the other hand, the GOP has not been subverted, but instead it was begun as a way to misdirect the people. There have been periods of time when it has served as the platform for conservatism when enough people got involved to make it so. But from the beginning, the Republican Party was a tool of communists and their conspiratorial allies
and follows with an entertaining tale of Bouvay’s communist roots connected with a free love socialist colony next to Ripon, Wisconsin called Ceresco or the Wisconsin Phalanx
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceresco,_Wisconsin
And all sorts of twists and turns that I post here for everyone’s reading pleasure. It’s a hoot.
You have one headliner here and several prominent commenters who consider–as I said–Foucault to be authoritative/instructive or what-have-you.
Speaking personally, I consider Foucault, to the limited extent I have encountered his thinking, to be incomprehensible, like many French philosophers. But then, I am famously unschooled in political philosophy, and find abstract thought increasingly problematic as I get older.
However, FWIW, in the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy it says:
You have one headliner here and several prominent commenters who consider–as I said–Foucault to be authoritative/instructive or what-have-you.
Speaking personally, I consider Foucault, to the limited extent I have encountered his thinking, to be incomprehensible, like many French philosophers. But then, I am famously unschooled in political philosophy, and find abstract thought increasingly problematic as I get older.
However, FWIW, in the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy it says:
Me to McKT: you say that any sort of legal obligation for an employer to protect the health of his employees is deplorable Marxist tyranny. I disagree.
McKT to Me: Do you expect to be taken seriously when you make stuff up out of whole cloth?
GftNC: I only hope Pro Bono doesn’t choose this moment to stop biting hooks.
McKT quoted (from here): thereby demonstrating the truth of Marx’s claim that “capital is reckless of the health or length of life of the labourer, unless under compulsion from society.”
Now, to me that seems like an obvious statement of the implications of the Friedman Doctrine that “The Social Responsibility of Business is to Increase Its Profits”. (Milton Friedman was not a Marxist.) If corporations care only about their profits, then in the absence of legal compulsion they will pay heed to the wellbeing of their employees only in so far as it’s profitable to do so. Left and right agree about this.
But McKT commented: “…operative word: compulsion. So, all of my points stand… Marxism…is …deplorable.”
That seems to be a plain statement that compelling a capitalist to have regard for the health of his workers, even if it reduces profits, is deplorable Marxist tyranny. How else could one read it?
Me to McKT: you say that any sort of legal obligation for an employer to protect the health of his employees is deplorable Marxist tyranny. I disagree.
McKT to Me: Do you expect to be taken seriously when you make stuff up out of whole cloth?
GftNC: I only hope Pro Bono doesn’t choose this moment to stop biting hooks.
McKT quoted (from here): thereby demonstrating the truth of Marx’s claim that “capital is reckless of the health or length of life of the labourer, unless under compulsion from society.”
Now, to me that seems like an obvious statement of the implications of the Friedman Doctrine that “The Social Responsibility of Business is to Increase Its Profits”. (Milton Friedman was not a Marxist.) If corporations care only about their profits, then in the absence of legal compulsion they will pay heed to the wellbeing of their employees only in so far as it’s profitable to do so. Left and right agree about this.
But McKT commented: “…operative word: compulsion. So, all of my points stand… Marxism…is …deplorable.”
That seems to be a plain statement that compelling a capitalist to have regard for the health of his workers, even if it reduces profits, is deplorable Marxist tyranny. How else could one read it?
“your understanding of the philosophy and influence of Foucault?”
Foucault was absolutely an important revolutionary influence; he showed how the entire Earth was affected.
But then I’m fully relativistic, so your mileage may be Lorentz contracted.
“your understanding of the philosophy and influence of Foucault?”
Foucault was absolutely an important revolutionary influence; he showed how the entire Earth was affected.
But then I’m fully relativistic, so your mileage may be Lorentz contracted.
Why wasn’t Kyle Rittenhouse shot by police?
Why wasn’t Kyle Rittenhouse shot by police?
Philosophy being what it is, subject matter experts can parse differences between Marx and Foucault that are matters of degree and not kind to the outside observer. To western liberal democrats, Foucault is a continuation and perhaps an extension of Marx’s basic views.
How did you draw that conclusion from the article that you linked to? The gist of that article was that Foucault was suspicious of the whole utopian view of history that Marx lays out. The article author believes Foucault is closer in view to Edmund Burke than to Marx.
Philosophy being what it is, subject matter experts can parse differences between Marx and Foucault that are matters of degree and not kind to the outside observer. To western liberal democrats, Foucault is a continuation and perhaps an extension of Marx’s basic views.
How did you draw that conclusion from the article that you linked to? The gist of that article was that Foucault was suspicious of the whole utopian view of history that Marx lays out. The article author believes Foucault is closer in view to Edmund Burke than to Marx.
You have one headliner here and several prominent commenters who consider–as I said–Foucault to be authoritative/instructive or what-have-you.
For Foucault to be instructive, you need take some time and figure out what he says. If you don’t want to do that, that’s your decision, and I don’t wade into battles here about the law because I have little interest in legal matters. But I guess the difference is that I don’t wear my ignorance about the law like a badge of honor.
You have one headliner here and several prominent commenters who consider–as I said–Foucault to be authoritative/instructive or what-have-you.
For Foucault to be instructive, you need take some time and figure out what he says. If you don’t want to do that, that’s your decision, and I don’t wade into battles here about the law because I have little interest in legal matters. But I guess the difference is that I don’t wear my ignorance about the law like a badge of honor.
god forbid that we should have to confront the idea that we might, as a society and a culture, be prone to racial bias.
Of course, there’s racial bias. A lot of it unconscious and behavioral. But it’s not the be-all and end-all explainer for all the negative experiences minorities have when dealing with the police and the larger society. I’ve found it stressful the times I’ve had to deal with the police in their official capacity. I can easily imagine that most minorities experience a lot more stress than I ever have. And telling them that all their negative experiences are due to racism doesn’t help with that stress.
I think the book, Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents, I described above is a better explainer of the minorty experience in America than many of the others being flogged.
god forbid that we should have to confront the idea that we might, as a society and a culture, be prone to racial bias.
Of course, there’s racial bias. A lot of it unconscious and behavioral. But it’s not the be-all and end-all explainer for all the negative experiences minorities have when dealing with the police and the larger society. I’ve found it stressful the times I’ve had to deal with the police in their official capacity. I can easily imagine that most minorities experience a lot more stress than I ever have. And telling them that all their negative experiences are due to racism doesn’t help with that stress.
I think the book, Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents, I described above is a better explainer of the minorty experience in America than many of the others being flogged.
Of course, there’s racial bias.
Thank you.
A lot of it unconscious and behavioral.
I’d go so far as to say most.
But it’s not the be-all and end-all explainer for all the negative experiences minorities have when dealing with the police and the larger society.
I don’t disagree.
TBH, I’m not telling anybody what the causes of their problems are. I’m trying to pay attention to what *people are telling me* the causes of their problems are. Or, at a minimum, what their experience of it all is.
We are not always the most reliable witnesses to our own experience, but in general I’m inclined to think they know more about it than I do.
The book on caste looks very interesting, I’m very interested in checking it out. Thanks for the suggestion!
Of course, there’s racial bias.
Thank you.
A lot of it unconscious and behavioral.
I’d go so far as to say most.
But it’s not the be-all and end-all explainer for all the negative experiences minorities have when dealing with the police and the larger society.
I don’t disagree.
TBH, I’m not telling anybody what the causes of their problems are. I’m trying to pay attention to what *people are telling me* the causes of their problems are. Or, at a minimum, what their experience of it all is.
We are not always the most reliable witnesses to our own experience, but in general I’m inclined to think they know more about it than I do.
The book on caste looks very interesting, I’m very interested in checking it out. Thanks for the suggestion!
Why wasn’t Kyle Rittenhouse shot by police?
Why didn’t cops tell Rittenhouse “Put the gun away, junior, and go home, before you hurt somebody”?
As opposed to thanks, we appreciate it, here’s some water.
Whiskey tango foxtrot.
Why wasn’t Kyle Rittenhouse shot by police?
Why didn’t cops tell Rittenhouse “Put the gun away, junior, and go home, before you hurt somebody”?
As opposed to thanks, we appreciate it, here’s some water.
Whiskey tango foxtrot.
So strange that.a culture of fear that lionizes people brandish deadly weapons ends up spawning yet another kid who takes it upon himself to shoot his politics into other people.
Maybe he’s a Marxist.
So strange that.a culture of fear that lionizes people brandish deadly weapons ends up spawning yet another kid who takes it upon himself to shoot his politics into other people.
Maybe he’s a Marxist.
And when all is said and done, if you’re black, you’re 2.5 times as likely to be shot by a cop than if you’re white
Which translates to a .003% chance of being shot by a cop over a 5 year period or an annualized .0006% chance per year.
Essentially you have almost 0 chance of getting shot by a cop. If you aren’t a criminal the percent isn’t 0, but it is approaching it.
I dont have a link, i just did the math. The 2.5 number comes from bkacks and whites shot by a cop over a 5 year period. About 2300 whites and 1200 blacks.
And when all is said and done, if you’re black, you’re 2.5 times as likely to be shot by a cop than if you’re white
Which translates to a .003% chance of being shot by a cop over a 5 year period or an annualized .0006% chance per year.
Essentially you have almost 0 chance of getting shot by a cop. If you aren’t a criminal the percent isn’t 0, but it is approaching it.
I dont have a link, i just did the math. The 2.5 number comes from bkacks and whites shot by a cop over a 5 year period. About 2300 whites and 1200 blacks.
Those lives matter
Those lives matter
McKinney, thanks for answering my question with a link. I too find it hard from reading the article where you’re coming from. I have dabbled from time to time in studying various philosophers, but have to say that haven’t spent enough time with Foucault. That said, it’s clear that most people think he diverged from Marx.
The other problem with me and philosophy is that even when I understand it [or so I think], I forget what I learned pretty quickly.
As to Marx, I studied Russian history as an undergraduate. My history major was mostly that. I was extremely interested in late 19th century political philosophy and how it affected the various intellectual movements in Russia. Whatever you may think about Marx, and how his philosophy played out, he was addressing what he saw and experienced. He lived in Dickens’s London in dire poverty with his wife and four children (a couple of whom died). It’s worth thinking about the context in which he wrote and lived.
I remember having arguments back in my youth about whether Marx necessarily led to Lenin and Stalin. Looking at Russia today, at Putin, thinking back to the tsars, and to the intermittent period of Communism: revolutions can change culture only so much. Maybe that’s why I’m an incrementalist and not a revolutionary. We can keep doing better, but we have to keep it up.
McKinney, thanks for answering my question with a link. I too find it hard from reading the article where you’re coming from. I have dabbled from time to time in studying various philosophers, but have to say that haven’t spent enough time with Foucault. That said, it’s clear that most people think he diverged from Marx.
The other problem with me and philosophy is that even when I understand it [or so I think], I forget what I learned pretty quickly.
As to Marx, I studied Russian history as an undergraduate. My history major was mostly that. I was extremely interested in late 19th century political philosophy and how it affected the various intellectual movements in Russia. Whatever you may think about Marx, and how his philosophy played out, he was addressing what he saw and experienced. He lived in Dickens’s London in dire poverty with his wife and four children (a couple of whom died). It’s worth thinking about the context in which he wrote and lived.
I remember having arguments back in my youth about whether Marx necessarily led to Lenin and Stalin. Looking at Russia today, at Putin, thinking back to the tsars, and to the intermittent period of Communism: revolutions can change culture only so much. Maybe that’s why I’m an incrementalist and not a revolutionary. We can keep doing better, but we have to keep it up.
Which translates to a .003% chance of being shot by a cop over a 5 year period or an annualized .0006% chance per year.
Essentially you have almost 0 chance of getting shot by a cop.
And you have only an annualized .0112% chance of dying in an auto accident. Likewise almost 0. Yet we have numerous laws and regulations designed to hold that number down. You can’t just put anything with 4 wheels on the road. Your car is required to have seat belts. You have to have a license in order to drive.
And somehow, rates per 100,000 population for whites and blacks are identical. (Rates for Native Americans are 3 times as high. Perhaps partly a reflection of those being 50% more likely to be alcohol related.)
Which translates to a .003% chance of being shot by a cop over a 5 year period or an annualized .0006% chance per year.
Essentially you have almost 0 chance of getting shot by a cop.
And you have only an annualized .0112% chance of dying in an auto accident. Likewise almost 0. Yet we have numerous laws and regulations designed to hold that number down. You can’t just put anything with 4 wheels on the road. Your car is required to have seat belts. You have to have a license in order to drive.
And somehow, rates per 100,000 population for whites and blacks are identical. (Rates for Native Americans are 3 times as high. Perhaps partly a reflection of those being 50% more likely to be alcohol related.)
Which translates to a .003% chance of being shot by a cop over a 5 year period or an annualized .0006% chance per year.
Then I guess they should quit their b*tching and get on with life.
Which translates to a .003% chance of being shot by a cop over a 5 year period or an annualized .0006% chance per year.
Then I guess they should quit their b*tching and get on with life.
Risk of being killed by police use of force in the United States by age, race–ethnicity, and sex
Frank Edwards, Hedwig Lee, and Michael Esposito
PNAS August 20, 2019 116 (34) https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1821204116
Significance
Police violence is a leading cause of death for young men in the United States. Over the life course, about 1 in every 1,000 black men can expect to be killed by police. Risk of being killed by police peaks between the ages of 20 y and 35 y for men and women and for all racial and ethnic groups. Black women and men and American Indian and Alaska Native women and men are significantly more likely than white women and men to be killed by police. Latino men are also more likely to be killed by police than are white men.
AFAK, the numbers are uncertain because there is no official database that tracks those numbers and considerable push back from police unions against any effort to get better numbers. Get us better numbers and we can have a better conversation.
But for the sake of this, consider how many lives that 1/1000 is and how many other people those lives come in contact with. How many BIPOC have a close friend or relative who has been shot and killed? Many of those killed may have indeed been engaged in some sort of illegal activities, but a lot of those routine stops would have been for “broken windows” sorts of pretexts where the officer involved would have no idea at the start whether the person involved were engaged in illegal activity or not, but all their training tells the officer involved that this is the moment of greatest mortal danger to themselves.
If I were black, knowing these things, I’d be scared as hell every time.
They are not being irrational. This is an essentially conservative reaction to an existential threat over which the individual has no control.
Risk of being killed by police use of force in the United States by age, race–ethnicity, and sex
Frank Edwards, Hedwig Lee, and Michael Esposito
PNAS August 20, 2019 116 (34) https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1821204116
Significance
Police violence is a leading cause of death for young men in the United States. Over the life course, about 1 in every 1,000 black men can expect to be killed by police. Risk of being killed by police peaks between the ages of 20 y and 35 y for men and women and for all racial and ethnic groups. Black women and men and American Indian and Alaska Native women and men are significantly more likely than white women and men to be killed by police. Latino men are also more likely to be killed by police than are white men.
AFAK, the numbers are uncertain because there is no official database that tracks those numbers and considerable push back from police unions against any effort to get better numbers. Get us better numbers and we can have a better conversation.
But for the sake of this, consider how many lives that 1/1000 is and how many other people those lives come in contact with. How many BIPOC have a close friend or relative who has been shot and killed? Many of those killed may have indeed been engaged in some sort of illegal activities, but a lot of those routine stops would have been for “broken windows” sorts of pretexts where the officer involved would have no idea at the start whether the person involved were engaged in illegal activity or not, but all their training tells the officer involved that this is the moment of greatest mortal danger to themselves.
If I were black, knowing these things, I’d be scared as hell every time.
They are not being irrational. This is an essentially conservative reaction to an existential threat over which the individual has no control.
Also, with regard to sapient’s comments about Foucault, Foucault was also an incrementalist. A lot of marxists dislike him for that very reason. He was anti-utopian in ways that call the whole marxist view of history into question.
Also, with regard to sapient’s comments about Foucault, Foucault was also an incrementalist. A lot of marxists dislike him for that very reason. He was anti-utopian in ways that call the whole marxist view of history into question.
something like 4400 people were lynched in the US between 1877 and 1968.
That’s just over 60 a year. And only about 3/4 of those were blacks.
I don’t know the population of blacks in the US over that whole period, but the odds of actually being lynched were vanishingly small.
Why do people care about such things?
something like 4400 people were lynched in the US between 1877 and 1968.
That’s just over 60 a year. And only about 3/4 of those were blacks.
I don’t know the population of blacks in the US over that whole period, but the odds of actually being lynched were vanishingly small.
Why do people care about such things?
So we are going to assume that 1 in 1000 black men are killed by the police with literally no data, and the only data available tells a completely different story?
I’m not.
So we are going to assume that 1 in 1000 black men are killed by the police with literally no data, and the only data available tells a completely different story?
I’m not.
OK, I have no idea what you’re talking about. where the hell did 1 in 1000 come from?
Cops kill black people at a greater rate in proportion to their numbers in the population than they do white people.
That makes black people angry. It’s just one of many things that make then angry, but it’s one.
How many people should cops kill before anyone is entitled to be angry? Damned if I know. Maybe we should ask the people who are angry about it.
In any case, apparently that number is fewer than the number they actually do kill.
Why all of this is so freaking hard for anyone to grasp is miles beyond me.
I’m getting that fishhook feeling, I’m gonna go do something else for a while.
OK, I have no idea what you’re talking about. where the hell did 1 in 1000 come from?
Cops kill black people at a greater rate in proportion to their numbers in the population than they do white people.
That makes black people angry. It’s just one of many things that make then angry, but it’s one.
How many people should cops kill before anyone is entitled to be angry? Damned if I know. Maybe we should ask the people who are angry about it.
In any case, apparently that number is fewer than the number they actually do kill.
Why all of this is so freaking hard for anyone to grasp is miles beyond me.
I’m getting that fishhook feeling, I’m gonna go do something else for a while.
That 1 in 1000 came from the study I linked to, which provided its own data. I noted that definitive numbers are hard to get and suggested that might be a good thing to track. Marty characterized that uncertainty as “literally no data” in a similar move to his claim that the chances of death that we have all borne witness to are “essentially almost zero.”
That 1 in 1000 came from the study I linked to, which provided its own data. I noted that definitive numbers are hard to get and suggested that might be a good thing to track. Marty characterized that uncertainty as “literally no data” in a similar move to his claim that the chances of death that we have all borne witness to are “essentially almost zero.”
Stops, searches, arrests, trials, convictions, sentences are all more likely and /or harsher if you’re black in the US
What the fuck Marx or Foucault has to do with that remains a mystery that only a “conservative” can explain. Actually, I doubt they can.
Stops, searches, arrests, trials, convictions, sentences are all more likely and /or harsher if you’re black in the US
What the fuck Marx or Foucault has to do with that remains a mystery that only a “conservative” can explain. Actually, I doubt they can.
Apologies, I see where the 1 in 1000 comes from. That number seems high to me also, but IANA statistician.
Black people seem to be trying to tell us we’re making their lives extremely difficult. There are always nuances to every story, but maybe we should start by taking them at their word.
Apologies, I see where the 1 in 1000 comes from. That number seems high to me also, but IANA statistician.
Black people seem to be trying to tell us we’re making their lives extremely difficult. There are always nuances to every story, but maybe we should start by taking them at their word.
Cops kill black people at a greater rate in proportion to their numbers in the population than they do white people.
That’s easy to fix. The cops could just shoot a bunch of white people…
Cops kill black people at a greater rate in proportion to their numbers in the population than they do white people.
That’s easy to fix. The cops could just shoot a bunch of white people…
That’s easy to fix. The cops could just shoot a bunch of white people…
Thullen is available for consultations with a list of suggestions…
That’s easy to fix. The cops could just shoot a bunch of white people…
Thullen is available for consultations with a list of suggestions…
Russell, keep in mind that the study’s 1 in 1000 is all deaths from police, not just “wrongful” deaths.
Russell, keep in mind that the study’s 1 in 1000 is all deaths from police, not just “wrongful” deaths.
Which translates to a .003% chance of being shot by a cop over a 5 year period or an annualized .0006% chance per year.
The chance of dying of deep soft tissue angiosarcoma is about 0.00005% a year. Nevertheless, my wife is dead and I am bereft.
That can’t be helped. But a thousand or so police homicides a year (Marty’s numbers are lowballed) can be. This doesn’t happen in any other wealthy nation.
Which translates to a .003% chance of being shot by a cop over a 5 year period or an annualized .0006% chance per year.
The chance of dying of deep soft tissue angiosarcoma is about 0.00005% a year. Nevertheless, my wife is dead and I am bereft.
That can’t be helped. But a thousand or so police homicides a year (Marty’s numbers are lowballed) can be. This doesn’t happen in any other wealthy nation.
Some guy was shot in the back seven times by a cop. That’s outrageous. I am outraged by that. Add to that the fact that the guy was black, and black men and women have been killed by police, seemingly randomly, a lot – it’s been in the news. We can name a lot of names, and people do list the victims. I’ve lost track, although I recognize the names. Statistically? Who cares?
Aren’t you outraged, Marty and McKinney, about these incidents? Just be outraged with us. Black lives matter. Who cares if a couple of Marxists (who are black) think black lives matter so much that they formed a Black Lives Matter movement? Aren’t you outraged enough to say that black lives matter? Black lives matter to me.
Some guy was shot in the back seven times by a cop. That’s outrageous. I am outraged by that. Add to that the fact that the guy was black, and black men and women have been killed by police, seemingly randomly, a lot – it’s been in the news. We can name a lot of names, and people do list the victims. I’ve lost track, although I recognize the names. Statistically? Who cares?
Aren’t you outraged, Marty and McKinney, about these incidents? Just be outraged with us. Black lives matter. Who cares if a couple of Marxists (who are black) think black lives matter so much that they formed a Black Lives Matter movement? Aren’t you outraged enough to say that black lives matter? Black lives matter to me.
The cops could just shoot a bunch of white people…
… and we would have policing reforms in about six months.
The cops could just shoot a bunch of white people…
… and we would have policing reforms in about six months.
The cops could just shoot a bunch of white people…
… and we would have policing reforms in about six months.
Depends if the white people were rich or poor, rightwing or progressives. If the latter, in each case (i.e. poor and/or progressive, or preferably “Marxist”) I’m sure it could be spun so that the current GOP would be perfectly happy with it and so would their base, except for those that actually knew the victims.
The cops could just shoot a bunch of white people…
… and we would have policing reforms in about six months.
Depends if the white people were rich or poor, rightwing or progressives. If the latter, in each case (i.e. poor and/or progressive, or preferably “Marxist”) I’m sure it could be spun so that the current GOP would be perfectly happy with it and so would their base, except for those that actually knew the victims.
lj, I guess Engels was referring to an American analogy of these guys*: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Reformer
I looked into the German text and found that he used the English plural form not the German of ‘reformer’ (while using the German form for the adjective). Googling the term almost universally led back to a handful of Marx/Engels texts.
I find it quite ironic that in the same document Engels more or less comes up with the Sozialfaschismus libel** when referring to socialists, i.e. that existing socialists, in particular democratic ones, are either useful idiots for the ruling classes or their close allies (thus making them primary enemies of the communists).
*atheists and pro legal birth control. Modern US conservatives find that combination as odious as their 19th century predecessors.
**the term fascism not yet existing
lj, I guess Engels was referring to an American analogy of these guys*: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Reformer
I looked into the German text and found that he used the English plural form not the German of ‘reformer’ (while using the German form for the adjective). Googling the term almost universally led back to a handful of Marx/Engels texts.
I find it quite ironic that in the same document Engels more or less comes up with the Sozialfaschismus libel** when referring to socialists, i.e. that existing socialists, in particular democratic ones, are either useful idiots for the ruling classes or their close allies (thus making them primary enemies of the communists).
*atheists and pro legal birth control. Modern US conservatives find that combination as odious as their 19th century predecessors.
**the term fascism not yet existing
existing socialists, in particular democratic ones, are either useful idiots for the ruling classes or their close allies (thus making them primary enemies of the communists).
[Hartmut, is that you?]
The process whereby “socialism” spawned so many opposing political movements is so interesting to me, but something I have only read about in a way that confused me more.
I tried to figure out what was going on in Germany by reading Thomas Mann’s pre-WWI writing. I should probably have stuck with that realm of inquiry.
existing socialists, in particular democratic ones, are either useful idiots for the ruling classes or their close allies (thus making them primary enemies of the communists).
[Hartmut, is that you?]
The process whereby “socialism” spawned so many opposing political movements is so interesting to me, but something I have only read about in a way that confused me more.
I tried to figure out what was going on in Germany by reading Thomas Mann’s pre-WWI writing. I should probably have stuck with that realm of inquiry.
As long as we’re playing dueling sociologists, give a look at this from Emile Durkheim.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_(Durkheim_book)
One of Durkheim’s observations: dispair born of a feeling of lack of control over one’s life leads to suicide. Consider then that non-college white men (i.e. core Trump supporters) have seen their real earnings drop nearly 20% in the last 20 years — and that’s before the pandemic. With no end in sight. And their suicide rate is roughly double that of any other group (except Native Americans).
Of course, it’s only roughly 135 per 100,000 per year. So essentially zero….
As long as we’re playing dueling sociologists, give a look at this from Emile Durkheim.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_(Durkheim_book)
One of Durkheim’s observations: dispair born of a feeling of lack of control over one’s life leads to suicide. Consider then that non-college white men (i.e. core Trump supporters) have seen their real earnings drop nearly 20% in the last 20 years — and that’s before the pandemic. With no end in sight. And their suicide rate is roughly double that of any other group (except Native Americans).
Of course, it’s only roughly 135 per 100,000 per year. So essentially zero….
So, wj, I trust that you believe what you just wrote, but let’s be real. Most Trump supporters are not working class people.
So, wj, I trust that you believe what you just wrote, but let’s be real. Most Trump supporters are not working class people.
sapient, you will note that I said “core supporters” not “most supporters”. Also, the article you link to is making the point that most Trump supporters are not working class — which, it emphasizes, is NOT the same as not the same as not having a college degree.
sapient, you will note that I said “core supporters” not “most supporters”. Also, the article you link to is making the point that most Trump supporters are not working class — which, it emphasizes, is NOT the same as not the same as not having a college degree.
But, wj, you didn’t provide a link, therefore you lose. 🙂
But, wj, you didn’t provide a link, therefore you lose. 🙂
to your stats, that is.
to your stats, that is.
OK, one more from me before I let this poor beaten dead horse of a thread lay its weary bones to rest.
You can’t work harder, stay at the office longer, play or sing better and get more than the state is willing to give
Bolds mine.
The daughter of a French friend used to date a (French) R&B musician. Somewhat to my surprise, the guy was not bad.
In order to qualify for public health care, the guy had to play ten gigs. A year. Ten gigs a year meant ge was a musician for a living.
I know a lot of guys who – pre-COVID – played as many as ten gigs a week. And had no health insurance. Because gigs don’t always pay so much, and health insurance purchased on an individual basis costs a lot.
I kick in hundreds a year to GoFundMe campaigns for musicians who get sick, or who die and leave big bills behind.
Want to play or song better, and not worry about starving if you get sick?
Move to socialist France.
Nobody’s gonna tell you what to play, either.
OK, one more from me before I let this poor beaten dead horse of a thread lay its weary bones to rest.
You can’t work harder, stay at the office longer, play or sing better and get more than the state is willing to give
Bolds mine.
The daughter of a French friend used to date a (French) R&B musician. Somewhat to my surprise, the guy was not bad.
In order to qualify for public health care, the guy had to play ten gigs. A year. Ten gigs a year meant ge was a musician for a living.
I know a lot of guys who – pre-COVID – played as many as ten gigs a week. And had no health insurance. Because gigs don’t always pay so much, and health insurance purchased on an individual basis costs a lot.
I kick in hundreds a year to GoFundMe campaigns for musicians who get sick, or who die and leave big bills behind.
Want to play or song better, and not worry about starving if you get sick?
Move to socialist France.
Nobody’s gonna tell you what to play, either.
Somewhat to my surprise, the guy was not bad.
LOL. A masterly anti-French joke, of which any englishman (or musician) would be proud.
Somewhat to my surprise, the guy was not bad.
LOL. A masterly anti-French joke, of which any englishman (or musician) would be proud.
Who’s more socialist? France, where the heavily subsidize Airbus? Or the US, where we equally heavily subsidize Boeing?
The difference, I suppose, shows up if you aren’t rich . . . just willing to be terrified about anything labelled “socialism.” Hmmm….
Who’s more socialist? France, where the heavily subsidize Airbus? Or the US, where we equally heavily subsidize Boeing?
The difference, I suppose, shows up if you aren’t rich . . . just willing to be terrified about anything labelled “socialism.” Hmmm….
Who’s more socialist? France, where the heavily subsidize Airbus? Or the US, where we equally heavily subsidize Boeing?
No no no. Corporate welfare is liberty not socialism. Freedom means that rich people have to get richer, and the government has to help them.
Who’s more socialist? France, where the heavily subsidize Airbus? Or the US, where we equally heavily subsidize Boeing?
No no no. Corporate welfare is liberty not socialism. Freedom means that rich people have to get richer, and the government has to help them.
The technical term is stamocap.
Even sounds more hard-edged (or boot-capped).
The technical term is stamocap.
Even sounds more hard-edged (or boot-capped).
But Antifa…
https://theintercept.com/2020/08/28/kyle-rittenhouse-violent-pro-trump-militias-police/
I finally left the FB group for the guys I used to train with in martial arts. One of the leaders posted a much enlarged picture of Blake walking away from the officers from the infamous video where Blake appears to be holding his car’s key fob, but the post insinuated that it was actually a karambit (Indonesian knife popular amongst tactical types) along with speculation about what Blake could have done with such a weapon.
But Antifa…
https://theintercept.com/2020/08/28/kyle-rittenhouse-violent-pro-trump-militias-police/
I finally left the FB group for the guys I used to train with in martial arts. One of the leaders posted a much enlarged picture of Blake walking away from the officers from the infamous video where Blake appears to be holding his car’s key fob, but the post insinuated that it was actually a karambit (Indonesian knife popular amongst tactical types) along with speculation about what Blake could have done with such a weapon.
Ha! I’d love to take credit for the Lincoln Project’s new ad, which I think is called “Decency”, and plays some of Biden’s interaction with Brayden, and then Trump mocking the disabled journalist. But I bet the idea occurred to several million people, it was so obvious.
Ha! I’d love to take credit for the Lincoln Project’s new ad, which I think is called “Decency”, and plays some of Biden’s interaction with Brayden, and then Trump mocking the disabled journalist. But I bet the idea occurred to several million people, it was so obvious.
Somehow, this
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/secret-service-copes-with-coronavirus-cases-in-aftermath-of-trump-appearances/2020/08/28/fa0e7b6e-e22a-11ea-8dd2-d07812bf00f7_story.html
gives one the sense that, whatever their personal political opinions, the Secret Service will be really glad to see the last of Trump. And their interest in assisting any effort to stay beyond his term minimal.
Somehow, this
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/secret-service-copes-with-coronavirus-cases-in-aftermath-of-trump-appearances/2020/08/28/fa0e7b6e-e22a-11ea-8dd2-d07812bf00f7_story.html
gives one the sense that, whatever their personal political opinions, the Secret Service will be really glad to see the last of Trump. And their interest in assisting any effort to stay beyond his term minimal.
Racism and segregation and police violence – Milwaukee Wisconsin.
https://www.wuwm.com/post/how-segregation-shapes-fatal-police-violence
And while we are on the subject of racial disparities and structural policies:
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/247816/evicted-by-matthew-desmond/9780553447453
Which is itself a study of Milwaukee.
Deep problems with race in Milwaukee, Racine, and Kenosha.
Racism and segregation and police violence – Milwaukee Wisconsin.
https://www.wuwm.com/post/how-segregation-shapes-fatal-police-violence
And while we are on the subject of racial disparities and structural policies:
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/247816/evicted-by-matthew-desmond/9780553447453
Which is itself a study of Milwaukee.
Deep problems with race in Milwaukee, Racine, and Kenosha.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trumps-election-year-gamble-messing-with-social-security-and-medicare-2020-08-10
Leading with THIS megadeath policy strategy can only be explained by the fact the sadistic subhuman trump republican party KNOWS the election is already stolen and in the bag for them.
These are murderous, genocidal filth right down to the last one of them.
They are mass killers.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trumps-election-year-gamble-messing-with-social-security-and-medicare-2020-08-10
Leading with THIS megadeath policy strategy can only be explained by the fact the sadistic subhuman trump republican party KNOWS the election is already stolen and in the bag for them.
These are murderous, genocidal filth right down to the last one of them.
They are mass killers.
OK, so three or four variations on a theme held up by the spam bouncers.
The last one is the one to restore. Forget the others.
Thanks.
wj: Mission accomplished. Apologies for the delay.
OK, so three or four variations on a theme held up by the spam bouncers.
The last one is the one to restore. Forget the others.
Thanks.
wj: Mission accomplished. Apologies for the delay.
LOL. A masterly anti-French joke
Ha!
I love France, but the nuances of rhythm and blues don’t always translate.
I mean, I don’t mean to be unkind, but what the hell is going on right here?
LOL. A masterly anti-French joke
Ha!
I love France, but the nuances of rhythm and blues don’t always translate.
I mean, I don’t mean to be unkind, but what the hell is going on right here?
Leading with THIS megadeath policy strategy can only be explained by the fact the sadistic subhuman trump republican party KNOWS the election is already stolen and in the bag for them.
Do not attribute to conspiracy that which is adequately explained by stupidity. It seems at least equally likely that those pushing this particular bit of agenda are simply incapable of understanding the political implications for the election. That has always been the reason that the Trump administration has not been a far worse disaster for the nation: massive incompetence has repeatedly handicapped their efforts.
Leading with THIS megadeath policy strategy can only be explained by the fact the sadistic subhuman trump republican party KNOWS the election is already stolen and in the bag for them.
Do not attribute to conspiracy that which is adequately explained by stupidity. It seems at least equally likely that those pushing this particular bit of agenda are simply incapable of understanding the political implications for the election. That has always been the reason that the Trump administration has not been a far worse disaster for the nation: massive incompetence has repeatedly handicapped their efforts.
And if the Biden/Harris campaign ever want to a) illustrate just how rubbishy the othering and birtherism of Harris is, not to mention all the hinting about how alien and ambitious she is, and b) appeal to those “suburban housewives” that Trump goes on about – or at least the ones HRC alienated way back when on the occasion she said she wasn’t the type to bake cookies etc, they could do much worse than showing this clip of Kamala Harris explaining in one minute to the guy behind the camera, while she waits to go on a talk show, how to brine a turkey.
https://twitter.com/notcapnamerica/status/1294768057055948811
And if the Biden/Harris campaign ever want to a) illustrate just how rubbishy the othering and birtherism of Harris is, not to mention all the hinting about how alien and ambitious she is, and b) appeal to those “suburban housewives” that Trump goes on about – or at least the ones HRC alienated way back when on the occasion she said she wasn’t the type to bake cookies etc, they could do much worse than showing this clip of Kamala Harris explaining in one minute to the guy behind the camera, while she waits to go on a talk show, how to brine a turkey.
https://twitter.com/notcapnamerica/status/1294768057055948811
“Do not attribute to conspiracy that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”
Your confidence in stupidity’s inferior efficacy in killing Americans is dispiriting. 😉
Herman Cain’s stupidity self-murdered his own self, but the stupidity he and his fellow conservative movement imbeciles embody regarding the pandemic is murdering plenty of our fellow Americans, though I will admit American strides backward in stupidity, or is it forward, seem to have become yet another feather in the cap of pigf*cking conservative American exceptionalism.
More murderous stupidity that will be avenged:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trumps-epa-dumps-methane-emissions-rule-for-oil-gas-fields-11597364947?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
Someone recently touted their contempt for the stupidity of the CCP regarding their initial handling of the Covid-19 outbreak. We’ll leave aside the subsequent sharing with the rest of the world by Chinese science of the virus’ genetic code and their efficient handling of subsequent outbreaks.
I’ll also leave aside for the moment the absurd and what in time will be the deadly reaction (for future foreign policy) of the American conservative movement toward one fifth of the world’s population, when I tell you I believe that the Chinese people should violently overthrow the Chinese Communist Party, just as I believe the conservative crypto-Christian government of Texas, among other levels of government in America, should be violently overthrown for their malign roles in deliberately spreading the virus and murdering Americans.
Apparently, American conservatives learned nothing from the CCP’s initial secrecy and stupidity except to emulate and double down on it, but conservatives the world over … yes, the CCP is quintessentially conservative in its efforts to maintain the status quo order that insures their power … are exquisitely consistent and predictable in their ingrained, habitual reaction to events.
Apparently too, the CCP learned from murderous American conservatism how to get rid of “socialist” state-sponsored health insurance for all its citizens and degrade and defund their public health infrastructure since China “liberalized” their economy in the classical sense, though I never hear American conservatives extolling those conservative virtues adopted by the CCP.
Maybe it’s mere Herman Cain stupidity in a dark blue conservative Mao business suit.
Witness CCP conservative secrecy at the University of Alabama:
https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/513962-university-of-alabama-ordered-faculty-to-keep-quiet-about-covid
The faculty and student body should burn that campus to the ground.
No wonder they don’t permit the carrying of weapons on campus, self-preservation being for me but not for thee, the conservative mantra.
Worldwide conservatism: the gift that keeps on killing.
I’ll bet Hong Kong’s Postal Service is having troubles getting the mail out too.
“Do not attribute to conspiracy that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”
Your confidence in stupidity’s inferior efficacy in killing Americans is dispiriting. 😉
Herman Cain’s stupidity self-murdered his own self, but the stupidity he and his fellow conservative movement imbeciles embody regarding the pandemic is murdering plenty of our fellow Americans, though I will admit American strides backward in stupidity, or is it forward, seem to have become yet another feather in the cap of pigf*cking conservative American exceptionalism.
More murderous stupidity that will be avenged:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trumps-epa-dumps-methane-emissions-rule-for-oil-gas-fields-11597364947?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
Someone recently touted their contempt for the stupidity of the CCP regarding their initial handling of the Covid-19 outbreak. We’ll leave aside the subsequent sharing with the rest of the world by Chinese science of the virus’ genetic code and their efficient handling of subsequent outbreaks.
I’ll also leave aside for the moment the absurd and what in time will be the deadly reaction (for future foreign policy) of the American conservative movement toward one fifth of the world’s population, when I tell you I believe that the Chinese people should violently overthrow the Chinese Communist Party, just as I believe the conservative crypto-Christian government of Texas, among other levels of government in America, should be violently overthrown for their malign roles in deliberately spreading the virus and murdering Americans.
Apparently, American conservatives learned nothing from the CCP’s initial secrecy and stupidity except to emulate and double down on it, but conservatives the world over … yes, the CCP is quintessentially conservative in its efforts to maintain the status quo order that insures their power … are exquisitely consistent and predictable in their ingrained, habitual reaction to events.
Apparently too, the CCP learned from murderous American conservatism how to get rid of “socialist” state-sponsored health insurance for all its citizens and degrade and defund their public health infrastructure since China “liberalized” their economy in the classical sense, though I never hear American conservatives extolling those conservative virtues adopted by the CCP.
Maybe it’s mere Herman Cain stupidity in a dark blue conservative Mao business suit.
Witness CCP conservative secrecy at the University of Alabama:
https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/513962-university-of-alabama-ordered-faculty-to-keep-quiet-about-covid
The faculty and student body should burn that campus to the ground.
No wonder they don’t permit the carrying of weapons on campus, self-preservation being for me but not for thee, the conservative mantra.
Worldwide conservatism: the gift that keeps on killing.
I’ll bet Hong Kong’s Postal Service is having troubles getting the mail out too.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-the-east-asian-mind-set-succeeded-with-the-coronavirus-when-western-individualism-failed-11598561912?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
The Germans are a funny sort, my ancestors.
Invade Czechoslovakia now! Kill all who resist!
Yavohl! Heil Hitler!
Wear a mask or else!
Fich dich! By what authority?
These guys, still with us, but dressed down a bit on the outside, are happy to wear funny hats and dumb suits and thrust their arms in synchronized unison salutes to their leader:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gU9op16rjQ
But ask them nicely to add a mask to their clown suits, and then they go all libertarian anti-authority. Why don’t you move to China if you want to be forced to conform?
As Reason Magazine reasons, the obvious solution to all of this is many more guns.
Just as the solution to too many holes dug in the ground for graves is more shovels.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-the-east-asian-mind-set-succeeded-with-the-coronavirus-when-western-individualism-failed-11598561912?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
The Germans are a funny sort, my ancestors.
Invade Czechoslovakia now! Kill all who resist!
Yavohl! Heil Hitler!
Wear a mask or else!
Fich dich! By what authority?
These guys, still with us, but dressed down a bit on the outside, are happy to wear funny hats and dumb suits and thrust their arms in synchronized unison salutes to their leader:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gU9op16rjQ
But ask them nicely to add a mask to their clown suits, and then they go all libertarian anti-authority. Why don’t you move to China if you want to be forced to conform?
As Reason Magazine reasons, the obvious solution to all of this is many more guns.
Just as the solution to too many holes dug in the ground for graves is more shovels.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/michael-moore-were-facing-a-tragedy-of-epic-proportions-in-the-upcoming-election-11598801310?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/michael-moore-were-facing-a-tragedy-of-epic-proportions-in-the-upcoming-election-11598801310?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
Just as the solution to too many holes dug in the ground for graves is more shovels.
Nonsense. The solution is more back hoes and power shovels. Gasoline/diesel back hoes, mind you. No green-powered electrical ones allowed.
Just as the solution to too many holes dug in the ground for graves is more shovels.
Nonsense. The solution is more back hoes and power shovels. Gasoline/diesel back hoes, mind you. No green-powered electrical ones allowed.
Michael Moore
The situation in Kenosha is nothing but helpful to Trump.
The killing of George Floyd, the shooting of Jacob Blake, and the rest of the parade of killings and abuse of black people and people of color generally by cops is an outrage.
But if the response continues to be riots and destruction of property, we are probably looking at another four years of Trump.
To say nothing of the pretext it provides for free-lance vigilante violence, and the escalation of what we see now into persistent episodes of what is essentially low-scale warfare.
All the stuff nous talks about? This is that. And it is a gift to Trump.
The situation is unraveling.
What I’d like to see is a forceful statement from Biden and Harris, telling the rioters to stay the hell home. There is a lot of support for peaceful protest, even if angry. There is not only a lack of support for rioting and destruction of private property, there is a strong aversion to it.
Time for the anarchists to stand down. They’re not helping anyone, with anything.
Michael Moore
The situation in Kenosha is nothing but helpful to Trump.
The killing of George Floyd, the shooting of Jacob Blake, and the rest of the parade of killings and abuse of black people and people of color generally by cops is an outrage.
But if the response continues to be riots and destruction of property, we are probably looking at another four years of Trump.
To say nothing of the pretext it provides for free-lance vigilante violence, and the escalation of what we see now into persistent episodes of what is essentially low-scale warfare.
All the stuff nous talks about? This is that. And it is a gift to Trump.
The situation is unraveling.
What I’d like to see is a forceful statement from Biden and Harris, telling the rioters to stay the hell home. There is a lot of support for peaceful protest, even if angry. There is not only a lack of support for rioting and destruction of private property, there is a strong aversion to it.
Time for the anarchists to stand down. They’re not helping anyone, with anything.
I’m pretty certain russell is right here.
What I’d like to see is a forceful statement from Biden and Harris, telling the rioters to stay the hell home. There is a lot of support for peaceful protest, even if angry. There is not only a lack of support for rioting and destruction of private property, there is a strong aversion to it.
Time for the anarchists to stand down. They’re not helping anyone, with anything.
As for the likelihood of this happening, the jury is out. I can see that from the Biden/Harris camp there must be a lot of delicate electoral calculation going on, between what would help and what would hinder. Here’s hoping (and praying, but to whom, for us atheists?) they find a way through.
I’m pretty certain russell is right here.
What I’d like to see is a forceful statement from Biden and Harris, telling the rioters to stay the hell home. There is a lot of support for peaceful protest, even if angry. There is not only a lack of support for rioting and destruction of private property, there is a strong aversion to it.
Time for the anarchists to stand down. They’re not helping anyone, with anything.
As for the likelihood of this happening, the jury is out. I can see that from the Biden/Harris camp there must be a lot of delicate electoral calculation going on, between what would help and what would hinder. Here’s hoping (and praying, but to whom, for us atheists?) they find a way through.
“ They’re not helping anyone, with anything.”
They never do
“ They’re not helping anyone, with anything.”
They never do
“We all understand your anger. We are angry, too. The abuse and unnecessary, unjustifiable killing of people of color by police must end. But rioting and destruction of property does nothing to save black lives. It must also come to and end, and must come to an end today.”
That should cover it. I don’t want to speak for them, but I think most of the black community would be happy to hear it.
“We all understand your anger. We are angry, too. The abuse and unnecessary, unjustifiable killing of people of color by police must end. But rioting and destruction of property does nothing to save black lives. It must also come to and end, and must come to an end today.”
That should cover it. I don’t want to speak for them, but I think most of the black community would be happy to hear it.
Thing is, Trump knows violence helps him. So he’s encouraging it.
Perhaps, because he’s Trump, he will overdo the encouragement and people will notice what he’s up to.
Probably not, though.
And the left should stand down and let the Trumpeaffen take the spotlight for a while.
Thing is, Trump knows violence helps him. So he’s encouraging it.
Perhaps, because he’s Trump, he will overdo the encouragement and people will notice what he’s up to.
Probably not, though.
And the left should stand down and let the Trumpeaffen take the spotlight for a while.
What cleek said (at 12:43). On the evidence, their interest in helping anyone else, remains what it has always been: zero.
What cleek said (at 12:43). On the evidence, their interest in helping anyone else, remains what it has always been: zero.
Thing is, Trump knows violence helps him. So he’s encouraging it.
Yes.
It’s a gift, to the Trump campaign.
Thing is, Trump knows violence helps him. So he’s encouraging it.
Yes.
It’s a gift, to the Trump campaign.
Thing is, Trump knows violence helps him. So he’s encouraging it.
I, for one, will be utterly unsurprised if it turns out (long after the election is over, of course) that a significant portion of the looting and violence was initiated by members of the Trump campaign organization. Given the kind of folks attracted to Trump, they will likely write books, or at least gove interviews, boasting about it. With luck, some will be dumb enough to do so before the statute of limitations runs out.
Thing is, Trump knows violence helps him. So he’s encouraging it.
I, for one, will be utterly unsurprised if it turns out (long after the election is over, of course) that a significant portion of the looting and violence was initiated by members of the Trump campaign organization. Given the kind of folks attracted to Trump, they will likely write books, or at least gove interviews, boasting about it. With luck, some will be dumb enough to do so before the statute of limitations runs out.
I agree. The anarchists, who are not Black Lives Matter, should stand down. Police forces should begin interdicting violent offenders with force rather than storm trooping peaceful demonstrators.
The anarchists … antifa … mostly white, since whites ruin everyfuckingthing, some number of whom of are Trump’s/Putin’s outside agitators and FBI undercover actors, but the white trash rioters are bad enough in their own right … there is a photo of Rittenhouse attending a trump rally and not in the cheap seats … are creating Trump’s Reichstag fire (the Nazis set the big fires; Hitler’s mortal enemies, the Communists, set the little fires) and many voters will choose ORDER in the streets AND accept in the malign package stolen elections, out-of-control police forces across the country gunning down more and more unarmed blacks, in the back, more deadly pollution, including the destruction by global warming, the purposeful bankrupting of Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, abject government corruption at the hands of Trump conservative movement thugs, the continued dismantling of the public health system at all levels of government by conservative movement anarchic disruptors, the desecration of public lands, the destruction and defunding of public schooling and universities, the handing over of much of American life to the corrupt sexually profligate crypto-Christian prosperity gospel, total cessation of immigration, legal and illegal, and possibly strict travel restrictions outside US for all Americans disloyal to fucking vermin Trump, the bankruptcy of state and municipal government and the cessation of government services, the total disruption of the international order and the unlimited spread of nuclear weaponry, and the big one, for which the subhuman vermin in the conservative movement hired Trump to carry through with to accomplish all the above, the reneging on all federal debt and the bankruptcy of the American government and the destruction of any tax base with which to resurrect government.
America is walking right into the catastrophically fascist hands of the pure Evil of Donald Trump and his fully branded subhuman murderous conservative movement, to maintain ORDER, and if you pronounce the word in Colonel Klink’s fake news accent, you’ll know precisely the cheap order we are buying into.
At the end of it all, Kenosha et al is going to look like a candlelight vigil compared to what is coming if America chooses, once again, ORDER over the black and brown races rather than the messy inefficiencies of a democratic republic destroyed by a subhuman demagogic movement.
Rod Dreher calls us Weimar America.
And I know what jackbooted horror he is willing to go along with to keep his Crypto-Christian conservative order, and it ain’t a bunch of guys midway thru sexual reassignment surgery kvetching about my pronoun usage.
I agree. The anarchists, who are not Black Lives Matter, should stand down. Police forces should begin interdicting violent offenders with force rather than storm trooping peaceful demonstrators.
The anarchists … antifa … mostly white, since whites ruin everyfuckingthing, some number of whom of are Trump’s/Putin’s outside agitators and FBI undercover actors, but the white trash rioters are bad enough in their own right … there is a photo of Rittenhouse attending a trump rally and not in the cheap seats … are creating Trump’s Reichstag fire (the Nazis set the big fires; Hitler’s mortal enemies, the Communists, set the little fires) and many voters will choose ORDER in the streets AND accept in the malign package stolen elections, out-of-control police forces across the country gunning down more and more unarmed blacks, in the back, more deadly pollution, including the destruction by global warming, the purposeful bankrupting of Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, abject government corruption at the hands of Trump conservative movement thugs, the continued dismantling of the public health system at all levels of government by conservative movement anarchic disruptors, the desecration of public lands, the destruction and defunding of public schooling and universities, the handing over of much of American life to the corrupt sexually profligate crypto-Christian prosperity gospel, total cessation of immigration, legal and illegal, and possibly strict travel restrictions outside US for all Americans disloyal to fucking vermin Trump, the bankruptcy of state and municipal government and the cessation of government services, the total disruption of the international order and the unlimited spread of nuclear weaponry, and the big one, for which the subhuman vermin in the conservative movement hired Trump to carry through with to accomplish all the above, the reneging on all federal debt and the bankruptcy of the American government and the destruction of any tax base with which to resurrect government.
America is walking right into the catastrophically fascist hands of the pure Evil of Donald Trump and his fully branded subhuman murderous conservative movement, to maintain ORDER, and if you pronounce the word in Colonel Klink’s fake news accent, you’ll know precisely the cheap order we are buying into.
At the end of it all, Kenosha et al is going to look like a candlelight vigil compared to what is coming if America chooses, once again, ORDER over the black and brown races rather than the messy inefficiencies of a democratic republic destroyed by a subhuman demagogic movement.
Rod Dreher calls us Weimar America.
And I know what jackbooted horror he is willing to go along with to keep his Crypto-Christian conservative order, and it ain’t a bunch of guys midway thru sexual reassignment surgery kvetching about my pronoun usage.
“We all understand your anger. We are angry, too. The abuse and unnecessary, unjustifiable killing of people of color by police must end. But rioting and destruction of property does nothing to save black lives. It must also come to and end, and must come to an end today.”
Please will somebody send this to the campaign? To be launched in every outlet of every medium. It would come better from an American than a foreigner sitting on the sidelines….
“We all understand your anger. We are angry, too. The abuse and unnecessary, unjustifiable killing of people of color by police must end. But rioting and destruction of property does nothing to save black lives. It must also come to and end, and must come to an end today.”
Please will somebody send this to the campaign? To be launched in every outlet of every medium. It would come better from an American than a foreigner sitting on the sidelines….
You see, this is the age-old shape of things:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trumps-former-acting-chief-of-staff-announces-plans-to-use-his-d-c-chops-to-make-wall-street-money-11598808035?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
This corrupt government-hating get uses his Citizens United-gathered payoff blood money to insert himself into governing me by destroying that which protects the public and then uses that vain, malign trophy to become rich in the very same industry he was corruptly paid to deregulate.
If the armed blacks and the armed right wing whites must use violence, then join together for once in American history and aim it at the
scum who fuck all of them over.
You see, this is the age-old shape of things:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trumps-former-acting-chief-of-staff-announces-plans-to-use-his-d-c-chops-to-make-wall-street-money-11598808035?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts
This corrupt government-hating get uses his Citizens United-gathered payoff blood money to insert himself into governing me by destroying that which protects the public and then uses that vain, malign trophy to become rich in the very same industry he was corruptly paid to deregulate.
If the armed blacks and the armed right wing whites must use violence, then join together for once in American history and aim it at the
scum who fuck all of them over.
Please will somebody send this to the campaign?
imagine if we had a president who would say such things?
Please will somebody send this to the campaign?
imagine if we had a president who would say such things?
just look at those Marxists sitting in the backs of their pickup trucks, spraying civilians with pepper spray and shooting them with paintball guns.
https://twitter.com/ByMikeBaker/status/1299908467457622016
fuck Trump and his supporters.
It’s been pretty clear to me for a while that the writhing mass of id that steers the loose coalition of theocratic nationalists on the right is not running an election campaign per se so much as it is working to radicalize and concentrate that coalition. There is enough ratfuckery with the infrastructure of democracy happening outside of the campaign channels to sabotage any efforts at fixing the mess, win or lose. All of that behind the scenes wanton destruction is just there to erode governmental ability to act. If the feds can be stripped of any power, then the theocratic nationalists can assert their will on their local areas without fear of interference. The campaign is working to “jump in” as many “soldiers” as it can to act as a militia.
Everyone keeps talking about a civil war, but this is looking to me more like the aftermath of the civil war and the birth of the Klan. It’s not open warfare, it’s shadow power and the threat of vigilante justice.
The rhetoric coming out of RW media bears a striking resemblance to that found in a Thomas Dixon novel. Just swap out “Antifa” for any racist slurs and you are most of the way to a modern adaptation.
just look at those Marxists sitting in the backs of their pickup trucks, spraying civilians with pepper spray and shooting them with paintball guns.
https://twitter.com/ByMikeBaker/status/1299908467457622016
fuck Trump and his supporters.
It’s been pretty clear to me for a while that the writhing mass of id that steers the loose coalition of theocratic nationalists on the right is not running an election campaign per se so much as it is working to radicalize and concentrate that coalition. There is enough ratfuckery with the infrastructure of democracy happening outside of the campaign channels to sabotage any efforts at fixing the mess, win or lose. All of that behind the scenes wanton destruction is just there to erode governmental ability to act. If the feds can be stripped of any power, then the theocratic nationalists can assert their will on their local areas without fear of interference. The campaign is working to “jump in” as many “soldiers” as it can to act as a militia.
Everyone keeps talking about a civil war, but this is looking to me more like the aftermath of the civil war and the birth of the Klan. It’s not open warfare, it’s shadow power and the threat of vigilante justice.
The rhetoric coming out of RW media bears a striking resemblance to that found in a Thomas Dixon novel. Just swap out “Antifa” for any racist slurs and you are most of the way to a modern adaptation.
https://www.businessinsider.com/white-house-anti-climb-wall-protests-2020-7?op=1
To quote Trump in another context about a another wall and an(other) group of human beings he wants to kill but are far more legitimately human than he is:
I want to “gas, maim, and pierce the flesh” of the current inhabitants of the White House inside that wall. I want to “paint that wall black” so these vermin burn their flesh trying to escape over it. I want to “aim a heat ray at them and cook their flesh” if those murderers attempt to escape the justice that is coming to them.
That would seem much more patriotic work for the rioters than shooting at cops, burning down businesses run by innocent citizens, and destroying the Biden campaign.
Probably the Trump/Justice Department operatives among them, however, would talk them out of changing their target away from the irrelevant to the true EVIL.
However, being a moderate liberal, I would build a door in the wall that opens outward and give the inhabitant criminals one peaceful hour (I know it will take Melania and Ivanka some minutes to pack) to walk thru it and be subject to traditional methods of justice.
https://www.businessinsider.com/white-house-anti-climb-wall-protests-2020-7?op=1
To quote Trump in another context about a another wall and an(other) group of human beings he wants to kill but are far more legitimately human than he is:
I want to “gas, maim, and pierce the flesh” of the current inhabitants of the White House inside that wall. I want to “paint that wall black” so these vermin burn their flesh trying to escape over it. I want to “aim a heat ray at them and cook their flesh” if those murderers attempt to escape the justice that is coming to them.
That would seem much more patriotic work for the rioters than shooting at cops, burning down businesses run by innocent citizens, and destroying the Biden campaign.
Probably the Trump/Justice Department operatives among them, however, would talk them out of changing their target away from the irrelevant to the true EVIL.
However, being a moderate liberal, I would build a door in the wall that opens outward and give the inhabitant criminals one peaceful hour (I know it will take Melania and Ivanka some minutes to pack) to walk thru it and be subject to traditional methods of justice.
I’m reading Auden this morning.
“Dance Macabre”, the first four stanzas:
http://images.myshared.ru/4/190817/slide_20.jpg
I’m reading Auden this morning.
“Dance Macabre”, the first four stanzas:
http://images.myshared.ru/4/190817/slide_20.jpg
imagine if we had a president who would say such things?
Well, russell has steadfastly refused to admit his fitness for ROTU, so you would have to make do with a president. But there’s only one on offer who could even form his (normal-sized) lips round those words, let alone mean them.
imagine if we had a president who would say such things?
Well, russell has steadfastly refused to admit his fitness for ROTU, so you would have to make do with a president. But there’s only one on offer who could even form his (normal-sized) lips round those words, let alone mean them.
russell has steadfastly refused to admit his fitness for ROTU
so who knows, perhaps I’m qualified after all.
FWIW, I contacted both my Senators and also my House Rep, asking them to speak to this issue in terms more or less like what I wrote upthread.
There is no good end game to where we’re headed right now.
russell has steadfastly refused to admit his fitness for ROTU
so who knows, perhaps I’m qualified after all.
FWIW, I contacted both my Senators and also my House Rep, asking them to speak to this issue in terms more or less like what I wrote upthread.
There is no good end game to where we’re headed right now.
As ham sandwiches go, Russell would be gourmet.
Drum roll for Russell:
https://www.tmz.com/2020/08/30/dave-grohl-foo-fighters-drum-challenge-10-year-old-girl/?ocid=uxbndlbing
Meanwhile, here’s the girl-punching killer Republicans all over the media this weekend are threatening to sic on Trump’s and their hated Others, meaning all of us.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/8/30/1973512/-Caught-on-video-Kyle-Rittenhouse-sucker-punches-a-girl
As ham sandwiches go, Russell would be gourmet.
Drum roll for Russell:
https://www.tmz.com/2020/08/30/dave-grohl-foo-fighters-drum-challenge-10-year-old-girl/?ocid=uxbndlbing
Meanwhile, here’s the girl-punching killer Republicans all over the media this weekend are threatening to sic on Trump’s and their hated Others, meaning all of us.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/8/30/1973512/-Caught-on-video-Kyle-Rittenhouse-sucker-punches-a-girl
FWIW, I contacted both my Senators and also my House Rep, asking them to speak to this issue in terms more or less like what I wrote upthread.
Excellent. I wish every decent, thinking American would do likewise, and that I had senators and congresspeople to write to.
FWIW, I contacted both my Senators and also my House Rep, asking them to speak to this issue in terms more or less like what I wrote upthread.
Excellent. I wish every decent, thinking American would do likewise, and that I had senators and congresspeople to write to.
Dave Grohl is by all accounts a great guy.
He’s sort of the rock star version of the major league ball player who hangs out with the kids, signs autographs for free, and always makes sure to toss a couple of balls into the stands for folks to take home.
Also, a great drummer.
Be like Dave Grohl.
Dave Grohl is by all accounts a great guy.
He’s sort of the rock star version of the major league ball player who hangs out with the kids, signs autographs for free, and always makes sure to toss a couple of balls into the stands for folks to take home.
Also, a great drummer.
Be like Dave Grohl.
Please will somebody send this to the campaign?
Biden.
I like the man.
Please will somebody send this to the campaign?
Biden.
I like the man.
Also, a great drummer.
He played drums on Queens of the Stone Age’s album “Songs for the Deaf.” It’s impressive. He does quite a bit more than on any of the Nirvana albums.
Also, a great drummer.
He played drums on Queens of the Stone Age’s album “Songs for the Deaf.” It’s impressive. He does quite a bit more than on any of the Nirvana albums.